Shalom Rick,

My name is Victor, I am from Shoresh Messianic Fellowship Jakarta-Indonesia.

I was attracted by your description of Messianic Congregation, especially Messianic Wannabe.

We at Beit Shoresh recite Mah Tovu, Kaddish,Shema, Amidah,Torah processing (Vayehi,Ki Mitzion etc) and Aleinu in
Hebrew
We also wear Kippah & Tallit Gadol, and several member of our Kehilat wear tzitzit kattan (on Shabbat only) and fixing
mezuzah
at their doorpost. We personally do erev Shabbat, Havdalah, 3 times Weekday Pray. We celebrate HaShem's Feast,
Purim, Hanukah etc. We call G'd use Hebrew term Alef Daleth when praying and HaShem when talking.
We call Jesus by His hebrew name, Yeshua, Moses=Moshe, Jacob=Ya'akov, Joseph=Yosef,etc.
We read Torah,Haftorah & Ketuvim Netzarim. The preaching is taken mostly from Parshah.

We do all that, but none of us is a Jew, not even our Congregation Leader.

Can our congregation be called Messianic or we are just Messianic wannabe?

What is your opinion towards convertion within Messianic-Congregation from Gentile to Jew?

--
Thanks & Regards,
Victor.

Victor,

Thank you for writing. Let me point out first that I am a gentile Messianic and that I am not offended by
anything you have written. (My background is described in detail in the Messianic Seminary attachment.) I
realize the people at your congregation won't like my answer, so I am including a good bit of detail.

Please see the attachments, which explain some details that are not obvious about the site and also get into
things like Messianic theology and differences between Christian and Messianic religious culture.

Unfortunately, any Messianic leader would agree that it is impossible to have a Messianic congregation if
most or all of the leaders are not Jewish. It would be like a group of Japanese in Japan watching American
movies and television shows translated into Japanese, reading Japanese translations of American books,
magazines and newspapers, following American clothing fashions, driving American cars, furnishing their
homes with American furniture, following American political races, reading about American history, politics,
etc., and learning the Pledge of Allegiance and the Star Spangled Banner (national anthem) phonetically. But
they still wouldn't be Americans. They still would not have been brought up in an American environment
with American cultural values, etc. Even if some of them came to the U.S. and spent several years here they
still wouldn't be Americans.

I don't mean to give offense, but the fact that you would ask the first question shows that the congregation is
not truly Messianic. The religion is Messianic Judaism, not "Messianic Christianity". The things you are
describing all deal with form, not substance. The specific liturgical prayers, the garments, the rituals, the
terminology and the language in which the prayers are recited, those things all deal with form and do not
make a congregation Messianic, although a congregation that did none of those definitely would not be
Messianic.
By the way, I have never seen or heard of Alef-Dalet being used with relation to God. In Hebrew the
characters yud-yud are used instead of yud-hey-vav-hey. The word Adonai is not abbreviated because it
literally means "My Lords" and is not considered God's name. It is the substitute for God's name.

I was quite surprised when our Congregational Leader (who was raised "Conservadox") told us, "Judaism is
an Eastern religion. Christianity is a Western religion." I had always thought Judaism was a Western religion.
He explained that in Eastern religions people learn about God by divine revelation. In Western religion,
which derives from the Greek philosophical / intellectual analysis tradition, people learn about God by study
and rational analysis.

For example, consider Judaism: God shows up and starts making covenants with Abraham. Moses is out
tending sheep and suddenly the God of the Universe shows up and starts a conversation. Divine revelation.
Later, God hands him the Ten Commandments, written on stone. Large parts of the Tanakh say, "And God
spoke to Moses to say . . ." and the rest is Moses quoting God. (Regarding Exodus 3, I like to summarize it,
"Hey, Moe, come here. Don't mind the fire . . . Take your shoes off. Let's talk . . .")

Now consider Protestantism. Martin Luther had a Doctor of Holy Scripture degree. He spent decades
examining and studying and analyzing the scriptural text. He did not have a revelation of something new, he
had an insight into something previously revealed to the Jewish writers of the New Testament--we are
justified with God by faith, not by following a bunch of rules. Even then, however, he misunderstood. He
thought Paul and Jacob (mistranslated "James") disagreed with each other because he did not understand that
in the Jewish understanding faith means putting your trust in God into action. "The just shall live by faith."

Another substantial difference between Judaism (including Messianic Judaism) and Christianity is that
Christianity is very creedal-based. There are loads of formal creeds, Statements of Faith, doctrinal statements,
etc. Christians split into separate denominations over things like whether baptism must be done by immersion
or whether sprinkling or pouring of water instead is also valid. Judaism is much more vague. You don't find
formal doctrinal statements, creeds, etc.

You will find some basic statements at Messianic congregations, but those are based on (gentile) Christian,
not Jewish traditions and also are intended to avoid misunderstandings. They serve several purposes:

1. Mainstream Christianity is rightfully suspicious of Messianic Judaism. They want to know whether it
is faithfully teaching biblical truth or whether it is a cult. The Statements of Faith are designed to
resolve that suspicion. We fully understand that God bade Christians (which includes Messianics) to
examine teachings, determine whether they contradict his word and to speak out against false
teachings.

2. Traditional (i.e., non-Messianic) Judaism routinely claims that Messianic Judaism is really Protestants
pretending to be Jewish by using Jewish symbols and rituals (the pseudo-Messianic congregations I
described but have never seen) in order to trick Jews into becoming Christians. The Statements of Faith
are intended to say up front, "We do believe in Jesus. We don't hide that. Here is a detailed statement
of what we believe."

3. Most Jews know very little about either theology or the Bible (including the Tanakh). The statement is
a good starting point for a discussion of beliefs.
Because it is based on the Greek intellectual approach of intellectual analysis, etc., Christianity puts a heavy
emphasis on imparting information, expecting people to absorb and learn that information and be able to
parrot it back. That approach makes it easy to measure the amount of information the person has learned.
Judaism puts much more emphasis on learning by example. Of course, the problem from a Greek Western
point of view is that that takes a lot longer and results cannot be easily measured. How do you measure, "My
kid didn't steal today because five months ago I accidentally walked out of a store with something in my hand
that I hadn't paid for, I realized it when we were halfway home and we went back to the store and I paid for
it. I didn't tell my kid keeping it would be stealing, I just told him I forgot to pay for it so we have to go
back."?

Also, Judaism puts far more emphasis on the family than Christianity. There is also much more emphasis on
learning for the sake of learning rather than only as necessary to acquire wealth, etc.

One of the core teachings of Judaism and biblical Christianity is the concept of mitzvot. As a specific
theological concept it has been totally lost to Christianity.

Another major difference between Judaism and Christianity is the question, "Who is a Jew?" To Christians,
Christianity is their religion and only their religion. It is not their nationality, their race, their ethnicity, their
ancestry or their cultural heritage. When someone asks my nationality (in the sense of ancestry) I say, "I'm
part Italian and part German." Although I am 56 years old, I only found out last year that I am also part
English, part Irish and part Dutch. I would never answer, "I'm Christian." (or Messianic). A Jew would
answer, "I'm Jewish." Being Jewish isn't just their religion, it's their worldview, their culture, their ancestry,
etc.

Christians have childhood memories of Christmas, Easter, Holy Communion, organ church music, church
choirs, etc. Jews have memories of Passover, Chanukah, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Purim, Sukkot,
building sukkot, bar and bat mitzvahs, lighting Shabbat candles, reciting kaddish, etc. Orthodox and
Conservative Jews don't use organs or choirs in their worship, Reform Jews do, because they borrowed that
from German Protestantism.

Regarding the "Messianic or Christian?" attachment, that deals with the religious-cultural differences
between Messianic Judaism and (gentile) Christianity. Each religion has its own culture known only to
followers. For instance, I was raised Roman Catholic so I know Catholic culture. A Protestant would
probably know that the "Hail Mary" is a Catholic prayer but he wouldn't be able to recite it. Protestants
would know that Catholics "go to Confession" but they couldn't describe the details of what is done.

Most Messianics could get about 70 percent of the questions correct. Most Christians could get 2-3 percent.
Most non-Messianic Jews who attend synagogue fairly regularly (which is not the vast majority of them)
could answer at least 50 percent. Most rabbis could answer 90-95 percent. Messianics who have taken
courses, etc., could answer about 80-95 percent. The list is deliberately written to emphasize the cultural
differences.
This may sound racist but it is not: Jews literally think differently from gentiles. One reason Christians find it
so difficult to evangelize Jews is that Jews have different concerns regarding religion. I'm single. If someone
came up to me making a big deal about, "Jesus can save your marriage!" my reaction would be, "I don't care.
I'm not married." Jewish biblical scholars frequently ask, "Why does this passage immediately follow that
passage?" Have you ever heard a gentile ask that question? The different upbringing and different cultural
roots lead to differences in thought patterns. For instance, in college I majored in German. There is one
German-language comedy. One! Different thought patterns due to cultural differences.

Christian preaching rarely mentions Israel or God's special relationship to the Jewish people. Messianic
preaching emphasizes those. Messianic preaching frequently points out why particular mainstream Christian
teachings are wrong. Often it is because the teachers don't understand the Jewish context of a passage.

Are you familiar with the extensive violence against Jews throughout history? Do you know the details of the
relationship between the Jews in Europe and the Crusade? Do you know the details of the relationship
between Jews and the Inquisition?

Can the preachers read the original Hebrew fairly well? Do they know anything about the Talmud and the
Midrash? Do they ever explain what Maimonedes or Rashi taught? Do they ever cite Pirkei Avot?

Does the congregation have ties to Messianic leaders? The Messianic Movement is still quite small.
Estimates are that there are probably less than a quarter million Messianics worldwide. There are probably
only 50,000-100,000 Messianic Jews worldwide. There are maybe 30 main Messianic leaders in the entire
world. Almost all of them know each other personally due to conferences, etc. Does the congregation have
ties to any Messianic congregations in Israel? Do the members read and study books by major Messianic
leaders such as Dan Juster, Asher Intrater, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, David Stern and Michael L. Brown? Are
most of the members familiar with Growing to Maturity by Juster? Brown's four volumes on Answering
Jewish Objections to Jesus? Our Hands are Stained with Blood?

Do the preachers teach about the different forms of Judaism in Jesus' day, not just the names but the details?

I suggest you listen to the two recorded sermons on the MessianicWorship website. Does the preaching at
your congregation sound anything similar? Check out the Jewish ministry at Gateway Church. Does the
preaching sound similar? Listen to the sermons of Peter Hirsh or Geoffrey Cohen. Also check out Baruch
HaShem Synagogue's sermon audio archive.

One of the things I mention in the Messianic? list on the site is, "If the rabbis never tell Jewish jokes from the
bimah, the congregation isn't Messianic." That may sound silly but it is absolutely true. There are two types
of Jewish jokes. One is an ethnic slur about some stereotype and is not used. ("Jews are cheap." "Jews have
big noses.") The other type expresses life the way Jews think. To understand such jokes you have to spend a
lot of time around Jews. For instance, the following joke probaby won't make sense to you but would to
someone familiar with Jews:

(Oy vay iz mir means "Oh, woe is me!" in Yiddish.)

Four Jewish guys are sitting around a table.

The first one heaves a big sigh and says, "Oy!"

The second one heaves a big sigh and says, "Oy, vay!"

The third one heaves a big sigh and says, "Oy, vay is mir!"

The fourth one says, "Look, if you guys are gonna talk politics, I'm leaving!"

(And, yes, the first time I heard that was when the rabbi told it from the bimah during shabbat service.)

Regarding conversion, there are four views:

1) First, non-messianic Jews, whether Orthodox, Conservative or Reform consider that anyone who believes
in Jesus is not Jewish--period. They consider conversions performed at a Messianic congregation not only to
be invalid but actually to be a fraud intended to trick Jews into thinking the gentile who worships a pagan
god is Jewish so that maybe the Christians can trick other Jews into becoming Christians without realizing it.
(They actually do think that way.)

2) Some Messianic congregations will not allow gentiles to convert. The biblical basis for this is where Paul
said that if a person was a gentile when he was a believer he should stay a gentile. There were only two
issues at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15), "Do gentiles who want to follow the Jewish Messiah have to
convert to Judaism?" The answer was no. (After that answer, the other was whether whether the non-Jewish
believers had to follow the full Torah anyway--also no.)

3) Some Messianic congregations have no objection to gentiles converting. My understanding is that this is a
very rare view.

4) The third Messianic position, which I happen to agree with, is the one at my congregation, which is, "It
depends on the circumstances, but generally no." The basic question is, "Why do you want to convert?"
Almost always it is one of three reasons, only one of which is considered valid.
a) "I want to do Jewish evangelism. I think I will have more credibility with Jews if I'm Jewish."

i) Most Jewish people will never accept any gentile as Jewish, even if the person
does not believe in Jesus and underwent the conversion ceremony at an Orthodox
synagogue. So the conversion would generally not be accepted and there is no point
in doing it.

ii) Jews are taught early on that any Jew who believes in Jesus is a Nazi and a traitor
to his people. They are told especially to not listen to any (former) Jew who tries to
tell them about Jesus. Therefore, they might listen to a gentile but they won't listen
to the same message from a (former) Jew.

iii) Jews don't consider anyone to be Jewish who believes in Jesus.

b) "I feel that God is calling me to be Jewish" ("to be closer to the Jewish people".)

The person misunderstands God. This is based on the false assumption that God
prefers Jews over gentiles.

c) "My spouse is Jewish. We want to have a Jewish home and raise our children Jewish."

This is considered a legitimate reason and most congregations (even non-Messianic)

will do a conversion if this is the reason.

Rick Reinckens, webmaster