THIS IS A DECLARATION OF THE POSITION OF THE MEDICINE STUDENT COUNCIL, REPRESENTING THE STUDENTS OF THE COLLEGE OF MEDICINE, ON THE

MATTER OF THE PROPOSED TUITION AND OTHER FEES ADJUSTMENT IN THE UP COLLEGE OF MEDICINE. SEPTEMBER 28, 2005

Based on consultations, analyses and discussions by the members of the Medicine Student Council (MSC), we unconditionally oppose the Tuition and other Fees Adjustment (TFA) proposed by the Administration of the UP College of Medicine and any modification thereof. I. The College Committee (Task Force on Cost of Medical Education) the Past Year The Administration of the UP College of Medicine (UPCM) has created a special Committee, the Task Force Tuition Fee Increase on October 2004. It later changed its name to Task Force on Cost of Medical Education last January 2005. From the minutes of the November 3, 2004 meeting, its objective was to recommend appropriate tuition fee increase including laboratory fees for medical students of the College and to recommend mechanics of implementation. Study prospect of financial status for the year to come, for operation alone. From the very start, the task force was set to recommend an increase, before reviewing the financial status of the College and its subordinate units, and before the consultation with students and parents. Thus with its original committee name and objective, it is not improbable that subsequent meetings and actions of the committee were biased to endorsing an increase in tuition and other fees. Subsequent activities carried out by the Committee included review of records, meetings, and consultations with students, parents and faculty. 1. On the review of records for expenditures, the Committee computed that the cost of UPCM education is Php186, 508.75 per year per student. This was apparently based on current operational costs, personnel salaries and additional Departmental expenses. For Departmental expenses, it can be argued that there is no clear distinction for expenses where students benefit, since expenses by the department also covers other personnel (residents, fellows, and staff), and equipments / supplies for the patients. For example, some departments included utilities (electricity, water, etc) as part of their expenditure for students. This would only be accurate if the department somehow developed a formula where they extracted the usage of students apart from the use by patients, doctors and other personnel. In addition, the Philippine General Hospital (PGH) has a separate budget where the Departments also receive subsidy particularly for personnel salaries. Because of this, some departments may have inadvertently submitted a much increased expenditure which certainly does not reflect their expenses for medical education. A specific example is the Department of Neurosciences where they declared that in AY2004-05 they apparently spent Php57,444,050.97 for medical education, most of which came from personnel expenses (Php42,005,467.50). This certainly does not reflect the cost of medical education among the students who spend a relatively short time in the department. Thus, the cost of UPCM education as Php186, 508.75 per year per student is erroneous. 2. The Committees student consultations included one survey and one forum. Two items in the student survey (by the administration) were either misinterpreted or misrepresented.

Figure 1 Part of the Student survey form (made by the Administration)

Item number 5 clearly asked the maximum amount affordable per semester. However, in the Committee report, the results indicated maximum amount increase affordable. There is a big difference between the MSC TFA Stand, 09/28/05: Page 1 of 11

amount affordable and the additional amount affordable. On item number 6, it asked comments on a possible tuition increase. However, this was reported as a Yes-No to a tuition increase. The validity of such Yes-No interpretation is questionable since comments by the respondents may not be directly YesNo and the checking of this item is very subjective. 3. The Committees parent consultations included one survey and one forum. The respondents in the survey are 129 out of the more than 800 parents. The survey showed that 74% of the respondents were amenable to an increase, most of which suggested a 20-25% increase. Note that on the proposed TFA, there will be an overall ~37% increase on the first year, and a ~82% increase on full implementation. An 82% increase is unprecedented in any university a State University at that. Meanwhile, 14 parents attended the TFA forum. It is safe to say that most of them live in or around Metro Manila. In general, consultation with students and parents is unsatisfactory especially for those who are in the provinces and there are noted inconsistencies in the Committee report regarding the student survey. II. The Medicine Student Council (MSC) the Past Year The MSC has had different activities regarding the TFA issue foremost of which is information dissemination, consultations with the students and attendance to meetings and fora. Information dissemination for the proposed TFA included presentations to the different classes, Bulletin board announcements, and the release of a TFA primer to all students of the College. [See attached TFA
Primer]

The MSC and the respective Class Presidents / Representatives, have represented the studentry on all meetings of the Committee on TFA. The usual extent of participation in those meetings is to give inputs, ideas or suggestions. Final decisions rest on the faculties and Chairperson of the Committee. MSC student consultation-discussions included two major consultations and informal small group discussions undertaken by class representatives of the MSC. From the February consultationdiscussion with different Year Levels, the MSC found that majority of the students are opposed to any TFA. On the August consultation-survey, proposed amounts for TFA were already available. This time, we have consulted 527 students (73%) from Year Level 1 to Year Level 6 (Classes 2012 2007). We have found that majority of the students (52%) are not in favor of the proposed TFA. Most respondents cited that the increase was too high or too fast, that the College is a State institution and that many students would not be able to cope with an increase. Majority (54%) also believe that a TFA is not the best solution for the current financial problems of the College. Alternatives suggested by the respondents include increased government support, income generation schemes, strengthening of alumni support, proper budget allocation & prioritization, and linkages with the private sector. We also found that 60% of the students acknowledged that they are capable to pay more than the current tuition. However, a significant percentage remains who believe they can only pay up to the current tuition rate. In addition, only around 6% of the respondents avail of scholarships. The current estimated need for financial aid is at 8%. If the proposal is fully implemented the need for financial support would increase to greater than 60% of the student population. [See attached consultation-survey results] III. Reasons for Opposing the Proposed TFA 1. Majority of the Students Are Not in Favor of a TFA Apart from the above MSC consultations, as of this writing, the following classes and organizations have declared to unconditionally oppose the proposed TFA: Class 2008, Class 2011, Class 2012, Lingkod ER UP Manila, MediCine, Mu Sigma Phi Sorority Inc., Pangkalusugang Samahan ng Mag-aaral (PAGSAMA), Phi Kappa Mu Fraternity, Phi Lambda Delta Sorority, Regionalization Students Organization (RSO), UP KASANAG, UP Medical Students Society (MSS), UP Medics, UP Medrhythmics, and UP Meridian. [Please see attached resolution] Note that other classes and organizations not included in the resolution are not necessarily supporting the proposal. The class or organization is either divided on the issue or have not decided yet. MSC TFA Stand, 09/28/05: Page 2 of 11

2. There are Problems in the Process of Making the TFA Proposal As stated above, the Committee created by the Administration was biased from the start to recommend an increase. In addition, student members of the Committee were sometimes misquoted or misinterpreted in the minutes. For example, on the November 10, 2004 minutes, Mr. Joseph Lachica was quoted as saying that he was amenable to an increase in tuition. He however, denies that he uttered such a statement. Furthermore, the computed cost of UPCM education is erroneous and certainly does not reflect the actual cost. A more extensive review of the Colleges and departments balance sheets, statement of income and expenses etc. (if they exist) would give a more accurate figure. Misinterpretations in the student survey should also be noted. We also believe that the student and parent consultations done (one forum and one survey) are inadequate in quantity and quality. 3. The Bases of the Increase Are Not Justified a. Problematic Figures and Computations The proposed TFA was derived by dividing the total estimated operational expenses for 2005 to the estimated number of students who pay a full tuition (70% of Year level 3 to 6). Additional and supplemental fees were then added to give a total of Php20,969.78 per semester. The proposed additional charges for tuition (Instructional Materials Development, Facilities Upgrading and Improvement and Program Evaluation and Monitoring) and the supplemental fees were all estimates. We acknowledge that there are bases for some of the estimates; however, supporting documents for these (like balance sheets, cash flow statements etc) should be present in the Committee report. As repeatedly suggested and insisted by the MSC, concrete data should have been presented and outlined. For example, the laboratory fee is proposed to increase two-fold but the basis for such an increase is a mere estimate. A list of laboratory expenses and subsequent computations should reflect a more accurate laboratory fee. In addition, the proposed increase of Student Council fund from Php0.50 to Php50.00 should be disregarded. Increases in Student Fund follows a process of a referendum with the students, and it is initiated by the Student Council concerned. Proper accounting and fund management in the College is another issue that needs to be reviewed. To quote a statement from the minutes of the March 11, 2005 meeting, Dr. Caballes said, a lot of expenses arent here (indicates to a graph). Hindi lang ito ang dapat ayusin ng College, and even if we increase tuition fee every year, if we dont have a good accounting We understand that the Administrators are not accountants and the staff are probably overworked, but in proposing a financial viability plan for the College, in this case a TFA, the accounting books are indispensable, not only from the College but also from the different subordinate departments or units. Going back to the computation, the divisor used was only 70% of the student population. This would mean that a student who pays full tuition would be subsidizing his / her scholar classmate since both of them receive the same medical education. Subsidy for scholars is the responsibility of the Administration and Government, not classmates. This also holds true for the UP dependents. The University gave the scholars privileges, and those scholars should not be blamed if they receive certain discounts in their tuition and other fees. b. Reasons Cited on the Committee Report are either Inaccurate or Unsatisfactory

As stated previously, departmental expenses were increased since there is no clear distinction for
educational expenses and service (patient) expenses.

Donors fatigue as the Committee report acknowledged, is a perception. It may or may not be the actual

situation and it is based wholly on anecdotal interpretations. The slow return / contribution for the Centennial Endowment Fund may have been due to other factors. The extravagant Centennial celebrations also show that there are donors willing to contribute to the College. The Centennial Committee has a large budget enough to spend ~Php300,000 for an alumni show, ~Php700,000 for a new statue, and ~Php2,000,000 for the December 1 Celebrations. The challenge is to encourage willing donors to channel future contributions for areas in medical education where it is needed most. students. Subsidy to hospital service expenses are and should not be part of the tuition. This also reflects the lack of budget in PGH, not in the College.

Patients paying certain fees for their hospital stay is not directly related to the tuition of the medical
MSC TFA Stand, 09/28/05: Page 3 of 11

 It is also invalid to compare the Colleges tuition with other private medical schools because the College
is a State Institution receiving Government subsidy. Also not all State Universities with a Medicine degree has a higher tuition than the College e.g. Mindanao State University. 4. Funds from an Increased Tuition Will Not Necessarily Go to the College Tuition and other fees are paid to the University and it becomes part of the University budget. The administrative officer admits that the College does not receive 100% of the paid fees by Medicine students. Thus, not all earnings from an increased tuition will necessarily benefit UPCM students. In addition to this, a TFA in the College would have a domino effect among the other colleges of the UP system. 5. Safeguards for Students Needing Financial Aid Are Significantly Lacking The proposal essentially lacks safeguards for those who will not be able to cope with the proposed increases. As stated above, current scholarships are not sufficient to cover those who need them. A TFA would certainly increase the number of students needing financial aid. Without safeguards and changes in the University and Colleges scholarship system, some of the current students may stop studying, and more importantly, prospective students would opt not to apply in the College. In addition, it would be harder for the College to enlist more private scholarships because of the higher fees. 6. Alternatives to a TFA Have Not Been Exhausted The MSC understands the economic problems that beset the College and the whole University; however, we believe that adjustments of any fees from students must only be done as a last and final option after exhausting other means. We believe that other means such as continuous lobbying for an increased budget and UP Charter change from Congress, further strengthening the network with the alumni and the private sector, and income generation schemes have not been exhausted. The Committee report has stated that the Administration has instituted several fund raisings. However, we remain to see any of the supposed fund raisings that are not related to the Centennial celebrations. The Committee report also stated that the only stakeholders left untapped are the students and their families. This statement is inaccurate. One, the primary role of the students in the university is to learn and study, not become the source of income. And two, the students and their families have already been tapped for College income. Currently, students tuition and other fees compose a significant majority of the budget for MOOE. 7. The College is a State Institution We believe at the primacy of the UP College of Medicine as a State Institution where the financial burden of the College must not be the students responsibility but the Governments. Being a State Institution has a greater and more significant bearing than the apparent capacity of students to pay. 8. A TFA in the College has Significant Negative Effects in the Philippine Healthcare System Being the primary State Institution for Medicine in the country, the College has a great stake in Philippine Healthcare system. Significant changes in the College would ultimately affect the healthcare system. For example, the College is one of the primary chances of an individual from the middle to lower socioeconomic class to pursue a medical career. A TFA would certainly affect that individuals decision he/she may just opt to go to work. This may contribute to the shortage of healthcare professionals thereby contributing to the current healthcare crisis. In addition, a TFA is not compatible with the current medical crisis where we are experiencing an exodus of doctors and a declining interest in Medicine as a career. As cited by the Philippine Medical Association (PMA) Pre-summit, one of the reasons for this declining interest is the very high cost of medical education. The College would certainly be contributing to this by raising its tuition and other fees. IV. Alternatives to a TFA and What Can Be Done with the Limited Funds

Continued lobbying for an increased budget and continued support for a UP Charter change that
will strengthen the fiscal viability of the College and University should be consistently carried out.

A more extensive study of the Colleges fiscal viability is warranted. An independent accounting,

economic and business administration professionals may be employed to look into the Colleges finances. Collaborations with the UP College of Business Administration and School of Economics can be done. The possibility of this endeavour should be acted upon immediately. MSC TFA Stand, 09/28/05: Page 4 of 11

 The College should increase its financial efficiency by streamlining expenses and thru continued
austerity measures. Efficiency can also be achieved by proper prioritization of budget and donation allocation. Donors should be encouraged to give their contributions to areas where it is needed most.

Networking with the alumni, local / international academic institutions, and the private sector Related to the above is the implementation of innovative income generation schemes in the

should be strengthened. A strong network of alumni would certainly be beneficial for the future of the College. Networking with corporate and private individuals involves not only soliciting for donations but also encouraging investments e.g. in research. College. One such income-generating scheme which does not sacrifice the academic nature of the institution is to aggressively market clinical (or even basic) elective programs abroad. Foreign students would pay a higher tuition and other fees for a rotation in the hospital without additional costs from the College. The College can certainly profit from this. We pray that the Administration be open-minded and creative in coming up with innovative income-generating endeavours. Colleges and its graduates service to the Filipinos. This is also in relation to the alleged reasoning of Government and Congress that they cannot increase subsidy because UPCM graduates do not practice in the country.

Discussions on the issue of Return of Service can be started with the purpose ascertaining the

Finally, to quote a comment from a student, Hindi ang mga makabagong kagamitan ang nagpapaganda sa reputasyon ng UP kundi ang mga estudyante pa rin nito. Indeed, an adjustment in Tuition and other Fees may augment the Colleges finances, but at the same time, a TFA would also lead to adjustments in the population of the students only those who can afford to pay the increased tuition (and the increasing cost of daily living in Manila) would be able to study in the College. With the foregoing consultations, analyses and discussions of the TFA and the issues surrounding it, the Medicine Student Council, representing the students of the College, hereby declare our position to unconditionally oppose the Administrations proposal of Tuition and other Fees Adjustment and any modification thereof.

Prepared by: _________________________________________ Alvin Rae F. Cenina Secretary-General / OIC, MSC TFA Ad Hoc Comm

Noted by:

__________________________ Benjo A. Delarmente Chairperson

_________________________ Vanessa L. Yap Vice-Chairperson

References to the Committee report (minutes of meetings, lacking documents, etc) in this position paper are based on the documents provided by the Administration regarding the proposed TFA. The document was given to the MSC on the 2nd week of September 2005. Inconsistencies to the final Committee report submitted to the UP Manila Chancellor, UP President and UP Board of Regents should be duly noted.

MSC TFA Stand, 09/28/05: Page 5 of 11

APPENDIX: Results of the MSC Consultation on TFA last August 2005

2. Sumasang-ayon ka ba sa Tuition and other Fees Adjustment na ito (TFA proposal)? Bakit? OO HINDI 47% 52% Category Examples # Category Examples For quality education General 72 TFA proposal is too high or too fast To improve facilities improvement / maintenance of To raise salaries To improve equipments quality Prevent deterioration education There is a need by the UPCM Administration made a good case for the TFA Right time for increase
Parents convinced / approved Fair / valid / justified increase

# 72

38 11

Financial reasons UPCM as a State institution Bases for TFA not justified No proper consultation

Some students or families will not be able to cope with the increase UP is a State university TFA inconsistent with UPCM objectives Government should fulfil role Greater state subsidy Not convinced of basis Proposal not justified Unnecessary additions / changes No evidence for MOOE withdrawal by govt Hindi ito ung napagkasunduan ng parents Students not consulted properly How about Parents from provinces?

33 33

Panahon na Due to current economic crisis

10

10

Students are capable

Students can afford Help college Students contribution burden not on govt alone

Government support not enough Current tuition is really low especially if compared to other schools

7 5

College finances not students burden Exhaust other means first

There are other ways Exhaust other ways

5 5

Other answers
Easiest way to solve deficit We are not affected For the good of many Since there are scholarships

No need for increase 2 2 1 1 Other answers

Current spending does not reflect need for increase College has enough money

*Conditional increase

As long as not too high or too fast Increase according to socioeconomic status Makikinabang DAPAT students

11 2 1

Since budget is centralized, All of UP units should increase 1st Bad for many Not enough safety nets Increase can be a reason for students to go abroad more UPCM Survived before without TFA TFA not the solution

2 2 2 1 1 1

MSC TFA Stand, 09/28/05: Page 6 of 11

APPENDIX: Results of the MSC Consultation on TFA last August 2005

3. a. i. Nakatatanggap ka ba ng tulong mula sa mga ito (scholarships)? OO. Scholarships received: HINDI. Reasons: UP Dependent (3) Problems with qualifications or criteria Grade requirements too high[7] UP Presidential (3) Not qualified [5] UPMASA Scholarship (2) hard to have slots[3] Oblation scholar (2) too many requirements[3] UP Government scholarship Strict qualifications Dr. _______ Scholarship Criteria not updated PMA-GSL Problems with release of stipends J. Moreno (matagal magrelease; di maaasahan) Jose Perez Limited offerings or limited slots available Limited information regarding the process of availing scholarships

4. Sa iyong palagay, Tuition Fee Adjustment na ba ang pinakamabuting paraan para matulungan ang ating Kolehiyo sa mga gastusin? HINDI IBANG PARAAN / Suggestions: Category # Government support 80 (Lobby for higher budget, ask government support, write to Congress) Income generation 22 (raise funds, generate funds) Alumni support 22 Proper budget allocation and expenditure 17 (proper spending, proper budget allocations, cost cutting, austerity measures, avoid extravagance) Linkages with private sector 17 (use or liquidate assets, networking with private sector, utilize research, lobby for donations from institutions / individuals, strengthen Public Relations) Socialized tuition within the college 13 (base tuition according to socioeconomic status, charge dependents) Return of service 5 Divert funds from Centennial celebrations 5 (use centennial funds, make a trust fund) Lobby for UP Charter change 3 Hire professional team 1 (accounting / financial expert team to study, evaluate and propose measures) Separate budget from UP system 1 Improve tax collection 1

MSC TFA Stand, 09/28/05: Page 7 of 11

APPENDIX: Results of the MSC Consultation on TFA last August 2005

Comments Supporting the TFA Proposal

Other Comments Cooperation / Contribution: With the current economic state tayo-tayo na ang magtulungan Tulungan na lang, wag na pag-awayan We should help out, government cant do it on its own UP dependents can pay miscellaneous: UP dependents: payag magbayad ng miscellaneous Dependents should pay too especially that sila naman ang may pera Others: TFI is necessary The fair increase: A fair increase (defined) should give opportunity to the financially needy and a clear allocation is given Sana mapag-usuapan ng mabuti para fair sa mga students On Scholarships: Ensure fairness and just process in admissions and scholarships (3) UPCM should also increase the number of scholarships Ayusin STFAP Strengthen scholarships Ensure availability to those in need Conditional increase: Ensure safety nets Moderate increase lang sana TFA is ok, but the increase should be gradual (3) UPCM and Service: Students / graduates should prove that were worth the money: serve here for two years UPCM serves community Lobby still for a higher budget but we should show that our graduates are staying in the country Need for other measures: TFA will help short-term more far-reaching plans must be implemented There is also a need for other measures not just TFA Option for merchandising to raise funds If not TFA, There is a need for concrete alternatives Prudent / wise appropriations and spending: Hope they appropriate and use the funds wisely Transparency is important (regarding fund appropriations / allocations / spending) [2] Others: All the TFA issue came too fast, as if instant and unplanned. I will agree with the TFA but know that Ive judged the admin as lazy yet demanding

Neutral comments

MSC TFA Stand, 09/28/05: Page 8 of 11

APPENDIX: Results of the MSC Consultation on TFA last August 2005

Comments Against the TFA Proposal

UP as a State University: The primacy of UP as a State University must still have a greater weight than the apparent capacity of students to pay UP will lose its essence of being a State University students will be competent and compassionate but EXPENSIVE Student capacity to pay is beside the point (UP is a state University) Focus for funds should still come from government, not the parents Tuition should only supplement funds not be the bulk of it UP is a public school Governments responsibility huwag ipasa sa sa students UP becomes semi-private Financial state of students / families: Not everyone who needs scholarships get them Sad, baka marami na ang di tumuloy sa Med Puro mayayaman lang ang papaaralin ng college Many students would not be able to afford UPCM students entered the college because of the low cost of Med Education (3) Paano na magiging doctor ang mahihirap Dapat alamin din nila kung ilang tao yung naghahati sa family income an income of P500T annually is different from a family of 3 to a family of 7 Problems with Bases of increase: Need for a clear basis for increase Clarify the P14M for maintenance Is there really a directive from the government re: MOOE? Check on student fund questionable Inconsiderate proposal TFI should be reasonable Proposal is too much (2) Hindi makabuluhan lalo na sa miscellaneous Socialized Tuition: TFA should only be imposed on those who can afford it Base tuition on parents income (2) Dependents should not be affected (2) Lifestyle check scholars give to those deserving Dapat rationalized ang scheme hindi across the board Implement to incoming or OSI classes only: TFA should be imposed only on incoming class 2013 and lateral 2011 at least they have a choice not to enter UPCM If tuition is adjusted, incoming direct entrants would be most affected since we (2011) do not have a degree Implement to future freshmen OSI students lang dapat magbayad ng certain addl fees Problems with consultation: Parents from provinces not consulted Ayusin ang consultation Implications of an increase: Has the admin studied the implications of TFA (i.e. change in UP culture, in student population)? Hindi ang mga makabagong kagamitan ang nagpapaganda sa reputasyon ng UP kundi ang mga estudyante pa rin nito. Others: Baka mawalan na ng regulation ang TFA baka maging yearly TFA should be studied / evaluated / reviewed further (3) Why hurry TFI should be last resort Unfair for taxpayers Nakakabigla / nakakagulat ang proposal

MSC TFA Stand, 09/28/05: Page 9 of 11

APPENDIX: Results of the MSC Consultation on TFA last August 2005

% Population Respondents % Respondents 1. Baseline Knowledge OO HINDI MSC Admin Faculty Classmate / friend Other Colleges Others 82% increase does not know % inc Other answers Agree Disagree Other answers 98% 2% 83% 21% 22% 30% 1% 2% 53% 43% 1% 47% 52% 1%

TOTAL 721 527 73% 518 9 437 112 115 156 4 12 281 224 4 247 273 6

2007 160 56 35% 56 0 44 16 15 33 0 2 20 30 0 36 20 0

2008 163 137 84% 137 0 125 30 39 69 1 3 91 42 4 49 84 4

2009 159 145 91% 137 8 129 49 43 9 1 5 78 57 0 84 59 2

2010 160 122 76% 122 0 98 0 0 0 0 0 48 73 0 59 63 0

2011 40 30 75% 30 0 29 1 5 23 2 0 29 1 0 6 24 0

2012 39 37 95% 36 1 12 16 13 22 0 2 15 21 0 13 23 0

1.a. Source of Knowledege

1.b. Knowledge

2. TFA proposal

MSC TFA Stand, 09/28/05: Page 10 of 11

APPENDIX: Results of the MSC Consultation on TFA last August 2005

3. Capability to pay

>11529.50 =11529.50 <11529.50 < 15, 001 < 20, 001 < 25, 001 > 25, 001 Proposed TFA OO HINDI OO HINDI OO HINDI Other answers

60% 30% 8% 25% 12% 2% 0% 0% 20% 4% 6% 9% 43% 54% 1%

315 158 41 130 61 13 1 1 105 20 30 48 228 282 6

35 15 2 12 15 0 0 0 4 0 3 1 26 30 0

72 49 14 33 6 1 0 1 24 2 13 10 37 99 1

101 35 9 31 14 9 0 0 42 12 10 27 82 58 5

74 37 10 35 18 3 0 0 29 6 1 7 54 60 0

14 13 3 10 4 0 0 0 3 0 2 1 9 21 0

19 9 3 9 4 0 1 0 3 0 1 2 20 14 0

For >11529.50, Capable upto

*For <11529.50: 3.a. Knowledge on Scholarships 3.b. Avails of Scholarships

4. TFA the Best Solution

MSC TFA Stand, 09/28/05: Page 11 of 11