An Interview with Wai Lun Choi

Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

I was born in Toi Shan Country in Guang dong Province in China on March 29,1939, in the midst
of World War II. My father was a medical doctor and died during the war. I began my martial
arts training in 1955 at the age of 16, after my family moved to Hong Kong. I learned Lama style
first, under Chen Jung Wu (Chan Keun Ng). After that came Northern Shaolin and Mi Zong Lo
Han ( My Cheong Law Horn), as well as herbal medicine and bone setting from Pan Mao Rong
( Poon Mao Yung), who was trained at the Shanghai Ching Mo Association and was also
outstanding at Northern Praying Mantis. Liu Ho Ba Fa and the other internal styles I learned
later from Chen Yi Ren (Chan Yik Yan), who was the lineage successor to Wu Yi Fan ( Wu Yik
Fai). I was chosen as the successor to the Liu Ho Ba Fa system after I won the Southeast Asian
Hand to hand Martial Arts competition in Singapore in 1971. A couple of years later I came to
Chicago where I opened my first martial arts school in Chinatown.

You first learned Tibetan Lama Northern Shaolin and Mi Zong Lo Han. You later studied Xing
Yi, Ba Gua, Taiji, and Liu Ho Ba Fa with Chen Yi Ren (Chan Yik Yan). Can you tell us
something about your transition from the Shaolin to the internal?

The reason I found myself exploring several styles in my earlier years (Thai boxing and Judo, too)
was that, despite being a proficient fighter using the external methods. I was always acutely aware
of the disjunct, the gape, between what my mind was telling me to do and what my body was in
fact doing. The thought and the actual physical movement were somehow not conjoined. This,
compounded with the fatigue that would come after a rapid series of exchanges and movements,
resulted in a shortness of breath and inevitably a lessening of power. This was in spite of being in
top physical shape. Trying to find a way around that is what eventually brought me to the
internal arts.

I would like to illustrate at this point the difference between the external and the internal
approaches. These differences do not arise from the specific techniques employed by the various
styles, but stem from the way the movements are produced. External styles emphasize speed and
power, but this is true of the internal arts too. What really differentiates them are the training
methods used to develop this speed and power. Internal styles require a precise unity of
breathing, weight distribution, joint alignment, leverage, etc. any time a movement is executed.

Can you share some information about Chen Yi Ren (Chan Yik Yan)?

My teacher was born in Southern China but became a wealthy industrialist in Shanghai, the most
cosmopolitan city in the country. His social and economic standing quite naturally brought him
into contact with members of the political and military elite, and it was a friendship with General
Chang Chih-Chiang that gained him his introduction to Wu Yi Fan (Wu Yik Fai). As a wealthy
member of the elite, he was in a position to study with whatever teacher he wished. Before coming
to Liu Ho Pa Fa, he learned Xing Yi, Ba Gua and Taiji very thoroughly from Jiang Rong Qiao
(Chiang Jung Chiao) and Chu Gui Ting (Chu Kuei Ting). He also learned I Quan from his close
friend, Han Xing Qiao (Han Hsing Ch'iao), one of the top students of the creator of the style,
Wang Xiang Zhai.
Wu, it is worth noting has the distinction of having been cited by Wang Xiang Zhai as one of
"only three people in all China who truly know martial arts"

Because of my teacher's social and economic position he was able to accompany Wu Yi Fan in his
travels throughout the country. He was with Wu in Nanjing during his tenure at the national Kuo
Shu Academy. During those years in Shanghai and Nanjing. Chan was able to meet and observe
the leading exponents of every conceivable style. After the Communist takeover, though, Chan
relocated to Hong Kong.

What was your training with Chen Yi Ren (Chan Yik Yan) like?

My training with Chan was a very traditional one. In fact, it took over a year of courting and
entertaining him before I was accepted as a student. As his student I was allowed to attend class
for three days a week, two hours each session. A movement would be demonstrated only three
times, after which you were expected to perfect it without further instruction. Only when Chan
saw that you performed it correctly did he explain its application. After the various techniques
were explained, extensive shadow boxing was practiced in order for the mental and physical
aspects of the movements to become coordinated. In this way the student developed a sense of how
the techniques should be executed, but without the tension of confronting a sparring partner.
That came later. The reason behind this training progression is simply that, under the stress of a
fighting situation, you will protect yourself. You will tense up, causing your breathing to become
shallow, and hindering your ability to react quickly. So it was not until Chan recognized that you
were capable that you began with the actual sparring.

Which of the four systems (Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Taiji, Liu Ho Ba Fa) did you learn first?

I learned Liu Ho Ba Fa followed by Xing Yi, Ba Gua and then Taiji. I as taught in this order
because it was the most expeditious. Liu Ho Ba Fa has elements in common with each of the
internal styles. Consequently, after you have understood it. It was mush easier to see the
differences between the other styles. It enabled you to see more clearly how and why these styles
proceeded as they did.

Nowadays Taiji is riding a crest of popularity. Ba Gua and Xing Yi are also gaining in exposure.
However, Liu Ho Ba Fa remains fairly obscure. Can you please give us some information about it
history, principles and characteristics?

The founder, Chen Hsi I, was a famous scholar/hermit who lived in early Song Dynasty (about the
11th century). He was a noted mathematician and Daoist. During his youth he demonstrated
exceptional intellectual ability, reciting Chinese classics from memory and offering extensive
interpretations of the Yi Jing, the Book of Changes. Still, he was unsuccessful when he took the
imperial examination, the route to employment in the Confucian bureaucracy. This was not an
examination that rewarded original thinking and after his failure, he decided to become a recluse
and devote himself to the study of Taoism. Nonetheless, he was still courted by several Sung
emperors, who sought his help in administrating the government. Chen was resolved, however, to
continue living the life of a hermit. It was during his many years on Mount Hwa in central China
that he developed the Qigong postures still used today. He also developed Liu Ho Ba Fa, which
originally was called Water Boxing because of its smooth, flowing, continuous character.

Several generations later, Tung Fun Lee discovered Chen's manuscripts in the cave where he
died. Intrigued by the precision, with which the Daoist sage had laid out his system, Tung studied
until he mastered it, passing the style on in turn as shown in the lineage tree. The lineage is very
clear in this style.

The core of Chen Hsi I's art, its principles, are the six harmonies and eight methods.

1. Body and heart together. "Heart" as used here does not refer to the physical heart, but
to the feeling of confidence you have within. To bring the body and heart together, you
start by using something as an example, as a model. It can be anything. In Liu Ho Pa Fa
Twelve Animal Forms are used to develop this. Every animal moves differently, has a
different manner and attitude. It is this attitude that we are trying to copy, not its physical
attributes. When an animal fights, its body instinctively, automatically works together. It
simply reacts without thinking. You must practice until you are completely used to it, then
when you move you will have confidence.

2. Mind and Heart Together. Once the body is ready, there is no longer a need to copy. But
something more is required; the body has to obey the mind. What the mind tells it, it must
do. When this occurs, you will have confidence that you are able to do what you want to
do.

3. Mind and Chi Together. Chi means energy, which comes from breathing. Once you
practice enough to get confidence, then you can move without hesitation. The body and the
breathing, in other words, the energy, will move naturally and will automatically be
together.

4. Spirit and Movement Together. “Spirit” does not have any religious meaning here. It
refers to a high level of alertness. When you are relaxed you have energy. Once you have
reached a state of relaxed alertness, the energy will always be ready in the body and will
automatically go with you.

5. Spirit and Movement In martial arts the spirit uses the senses: mostly sight, hearing and
touch. If you have achieved the previous four harmonies, when you are with an opponent
and you see or hear or feel anything, your body will automatically react. An example might
be when you are driving your car and a child dashes in front of you. Instantly you jam on
the breaks.

6. Movement and Emptiness. When you have the benefit of the first five harmonies, you
will not need to think about anything. You must empty your mind and follow the
opponent; never focus, just react. The techniques you have practiced are at this level
second nature. You are like a flag in the air. The flag has no mind at all; it follows the wind
to move.

Six Harmonies (Outside)

1. Torso Joints Together. “Together” means in harmony, connected, not separate in their
movement. The three joints of the torso are the lower spine, the back and the neck. To say
the torso and joints must be together, means that movement is from the lower spine to the
back and then to the neck.
2. Arm Joints Together. The three joints involved here are the shoulder, the elbow and the
wrist. The shoulder is the root. Movement of the arm must progress from the shoulder to
the elbow to the wrist, which then finally moves the hand.

3. Leg Joints Together. The three joints involved in moving the leg are the hip, the knee,
and the ankle. Here the hip is the root. Movement is from the hip to the knee to the ankle,
which finally moves the foot.

4. Hand and Foot Together. The hand and the foot must be coordinated and move as a
unit, balancing each other. It is like the natural balancing rhythm of walking.

5. Elbow and Knee Together. Again, the comparable joints of the arm and leg must work
together.

6. Shoulder and Hip Together. The two root joints must also be used together.

Eight Methods

1. Check Traditionally this is number seven, but it is so fundamental that it probably

should come first. The idea is that the body must be in check, in other words relaxed and
ready. At the same time the mind is calm and clear. You must concentrate on emptying
your mind and making your breathing smooth and deep. When you control your breathing
you can remain calm. When you are calm the body can stay relaxed. And when your body
is relaxed, then movement is easy. The movement referred to here, though, is the
circulation of chi through the body. When the chi is able to move smoothly, continuously
and without interruption, it means that you can breathe deeply and give your body more
oxygen. Oxygen means energy, which gives you the power to do what you want.

2. Chi We must train the spirit to make the power. This is the Chi Kung method.
Imagination is involved here. Think of an ocean storm, and the power of the water. You
are making the energy run at a higher level, like the pounding of waves during the storm.
It is like the feeling being in a fury, in a rage, but without any tension. It is a contained
fury. Outside you are calm. Inside the energy runs all through you.

3. Bone Holding the power in the bone. The meaning is to make all the joints connected.
There can be no empty or loose place. This method enables you to make the outside soft,
the inside solid.

4. Image The idea here is change the face, copies the inside. Anything in the universe that
moves you can copy. You see the image and take the spirit in order to radiate the meaning.
When we see animals fighting we copy their meaning and spirit, but not by imitating their
actual movements.

5. Follow There are two ideas here: circle and through. This involves the spirit and chi.
The spirit must circle, go out in all directions, and the chi must circulate, in other words,
go through. “follow”means you know the opponent and know yourself, you design and
react. You must use the basic principle of yin and yang to develop chi and power, mind
and power, with no breaking. The spirit is like radar, but the power must be straight. The
 joints bend, but the mind must be straight and unhesitating. You cannot focus, you just
react. This is for developing sensitivity and the flexible instinctive power that enables you
to react.

6. Lift This refers to the crown point of the head. The meaning is to wake up, be alert. It
makes the chi and circulation faster. But, it is not focused on. It is comparable to running
the orbit in the chi kung exercises.

7. Return This means practice yin and yang, in and out. In is a chi and mind exercise; out
is a coiling exercise.

8. Conceal. Fake and Hide. This means you must have the idea in your mind without
letting your opponent know what your intentions are. For example, you must signal to the
east to hit to the west. Point to the south and hit to the north. Up is unreal and down is

As an aside, it might be noted that, unlike the other three internal arts which are based on a
limited number of techniques that are strung along in different variations of the same basic
movements. Liu Ho Ba Fa has in its main form over 700 different techniques.

In teaching your students Xing Yi, Taiji, Ba Gua and Liu Ho Ba Fa, do you follow your teacher's
order of instruction or have you made some changes? And does the training in your school differ
from what you yourself received?

In my class, because martial arts has become a business in this day and age. I allow my students
to select what style they are interested in. I try to help them understand the principles behind
each movement in order to facilitate their understanding. This is the exact opposite of what the
old master in China would do. They would patiently wait to see if the student was sincere in his
training before passing on the so-called secrets to him.

Do you feel that instruction of the internal systems in the United States focuses too
much on the health benefits and too little on the practical fighting aspects of the arts?

The main reason that internal styles around the world (not only here) emphasize the health
aspects is that the practitioners lack the ability to generate power and employ the sensitivity
needed in a real fighting situation. They do not understand how body mechanics are utilized to
achieve natural power. The principles of leverage and proper breathing must first be understood
and trained. These ideas are applicable, not only in martial arts, but in all human activities. Take
the sport of basketball. It matters when you inhale and when you exhale if you are shooting a
basket. If you inhale or exhale at the wrong moment, you will instantly feel how unnatural and
awkward it is. There is a natural order in which breathing either helps or hinders your action.
The action itself dictates how the breath is used. It is my hope that I can convey to the public the
importance of fully understanding the principles of these arts and to begin to move away from the
mysticism and secrecy that have stood in the way for so long. It saddens me to see so many
enthusiastic people who practice diligently for years and years and never improve their skills. In
order to secure the future of the arts, the concepts and principles that made the arts what they
were must be re-introduced as the only foundation on which to build a solid base. Not as some
arbitrary set of rules, but proven as being logical and effective and based on sound scientific
theory of physiology and physics.
It must be understood that without precise body movement and proper breathing, an extreme
amount of energy is wasted as the body attempts to correct itself naturally. When the body moves
in unison, you expend a single amount of energy. If movement become disjointed, however, (for
example, the upper part moves before the legs), the two must then compensate for one another as
the body struggles to come into balance. The more segmented the body components become, the
more aggravated this process becomes.

This is what the classics are referring to when they say "one thing moves, everything moves; one
thing stops, everything stops" It not only saves energy, but provides expansive speed and power.

What training advice can you offer the students of internal martial arts?

Students must first prove to themselves that these rules are correct; once they do, it will allow
them to practice correctly. It is only with the proper training methods, coupled with diligent
practice that anyone can achieve the benefits on the internal arts.

Unfortunately, this may not be the best course to take as far as business is concerned but it is the
only way to preserve the internal arts and to educate this generation of martial artists. The
principles and theories concerning training and the development were painstakingly discovered
by the masters of the past. Most important for us to grasp are the principles. These must first be
understood and then their validity proven To do so we must break down the ideas of the old
masters, analyze them using scientific reasoning to make them clear and easily graspable.

On the part of the student it is a road that requires a great deal of patience and serious practice.