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PROGETTO DIALOGUES
Un Dialogo tra/A Dialogue between Barbara Bogoni e/and Eduardo Souto de Moura
Barbara Bogoni. L’impegno e la precisione che Eduardo Souto de che pone e ripone le stesse domande e, alla fine, riceve le stesse
Moura dedica a ogni occasione di dialogo con i luoghi del suo ope- risposte.
rare confermano la sua adesione alla concretezza e la sua aspira- Nella contemporaneità, il dialogo poco si discosta da questo schema;
zione alla verità. le variazioni sono minime e tutte riconducibili alle maggiori risorse
L’architettura priva di quelle fondamenta che la ancorano alla re- tecnologiche, ai più articolati bisogni umani, alle mutate disponibili-
altà e alla specificità dei luoghi, solo pensata e discussa in termini tà di spazio, di denaro e di opportunità. E le architetture che ne sono
di potenzialità e astrazione, cieca e sorda alle suggestioni dell’am- generate obbediscono tutte alla libertà degli architetti, quella, dav-
biente, non esiste. vero contemporanea, di accettare oppure no il dialogo, di disporsi
Non è Architettura. oppure no all’ascolto critico, di dichiararsi aperti alla partecipazione,
Non è, almeno, l’Architettura di Souto de Moura, che è capace, in- di essere curiosi, di ascoltare e di sentire; di ammettere e accogliere lo
vece, di trasformare le occasioni di dialogo con il contesto in accese stato di crisi che ogni vero confronto inevitabilmente produce.
discussioni, tra pensiero e realtà, tra desiderio e opportunità, tra In Eduardo Souto de Moura questo dialogo operante e produtti-
segno progettuale e atto costruttivo; in dispute, tra l’immagine pri- vo è, tuttavia, molto sereno, sebbene innescato da un fluttuante
mitiva che si forma nella mente – un dettaglio, un materiale, uno rilkiano stato dubitativo2 che, nella sua tormentata evoluzione,
spazio – e la sua effettiva realizzabilità; confronti, che si annulla- rappresenta la chiave della coerenza, della necessità e della inelu-
no con la presa di coscienza delle immense opportunità offerte al dibilità dell’architettura del maestro portoghese.
progetto dal contatto con il reale; e il progetto, come in un film, Eduardo Souto de Moura. La pratica del progetto come ve-
esegue un montaggio e una verifica delle immagini, suggestioni e rifica delle idee. Il mio lavoro principale consiste nella verifica
sequenze che l’occhio percepisce e che la grande poesia di Herberto continua di soluzioni pensate. Messo di fronte a un tema di ar-
Hélder sottende ed esalta nel suo poema “Memoria Montagem”1, chitettura, mi capita continuamente di far maturare delle ipotesi
uno dei grandi riferimenti del maestro portoghese. ancor prima di aver visto l’area di progetto, e inizio a elaborare
Questo metodo, che mette al vaglio le ipotesi – impressioni, opi- un’acerba strategia di intervento con le poche informazioni di
nioni o vere e proprie architetture in progress – e le cala nei luo- cui dispongo. A volte la mia idea matura, definisce le tecniche
ghi, è applicato indistintamente alle varie scale e ai diversi ambiti costruttive, i materiali, addirittura i dettagli, sempre nel pensie-
di lavoro, alle questioni di composizione volumetrica, al sistema ro. Perciò, all’incontro con la materia fisica del progetto, il luogo,
distributivo, a quello tecnologico e impiantistico, alle scelte figu- la terra, il paesaggio, le pietre, arrivo già pronto con un’ipotesi da
rative e materiche. Esso si risolve in una conversazione continua, vagliare e, partendo da questa, cerco di capire se sto seguendo la
eterna, un dialogo antico tra l’architetto – ogni architetto, di ogni direzione giusta. A questo punto inizia la fase di verifica dell’ipo-
tempo e di ogni luogo – e gli spazi in cui egli opera; un dialogo tesi, durante la quale mi scontro con ciò che penso (o voglio) che
che non ha principio né fine, che si ripete sempre uguale da secoli, sia fattibile e ciò che realmente lo è. E spesso perdo la battaglia.
AN “ANCIENT Barbara Bogoni. The commitment resolve themselves into the awareness the architect works into; a dialogue hav-
and precision Eduardo Souto de Moura of the limitless possibilities given to the ing no beginning nor ending, that keeps
DIALOGUE” BETWEEN delivers in every dialogue opportunity project bt the contact with reality. The happening in the centuries always in the
MATTER, TECHNIQUE with the places of his work confirms his project, as in a movie, performs then same way, asking again and again the
bonds to concreteness and his ambition an editing and a test of the many im- same questions, getting, at the end, al-
AND DESIGN to truth. ages, suggestions and sequences the eye ways the same anwers.
Architecture not founded on bases senses; the same as in Herberto Helder’s This dialogue, in the present times, is
linked to reality and to place specificity; poem “Memoria Montagem”1, one of not far from this scheme, the variations
architecture as a mere result of debate the most relevant references of the por- are slight and almost always referred
and thinking on abstraction, does not tuguese master architect. to the more powerful technological re-
exist. This method of evaluating the hypoth- sources, to the different availability of
It is no Architecture. esis – impressions, opinions or even a space, funds and opportunities.
It isn’t Souto de Moura’s Architecture, sort of architectural schemes in progress The architecture generated by this meth-
which instead is able to transform the – and lowering them into the sites, is od obey to the freedom – really contem-
opportunities of establishing a dialogue implemented indifferently at several porary – of choosing to accept or refuse
with the context into fervid discussions scales and several programs; at the is- the dialogue; of preparing to or denying
between thinking and reality, between sues of volumetric composition, at the the critical listening; of declaring one’s
desire and possibility, between the marks level of both technology and plants; at openness to participation; of being curi-
of design and the act of bulding; into the figurative and material options. It ous; of listening ad feeling; of admitting
discussions between the primitive image is resumed in a continuous and eternal and welcoming the critical state every
forming in the architect’s min – a detais, conversation, in an ancient dialogue true confrontation inevitably produces.
a material, a space – and its actual fea- between the architect – every architect, Eduardo Souto de Moura’s operating
sibility; discussions that are meant to of any time and place – and the spaces and fertile dialogue is, indeed, very se-
In some more complex situations, it by stabilizing the earth wall using a me-
may happen to cope with very prob- tallic net and projected concrete, then
lematic working themes, even criti- by cutting inside it the openings. In that
cal ones, requiring from me a deeper way, the weakness of the design – the
investigation of the problem and even fragility of the material – became its
requiring that I give up the image I had strenght, turning the problem itself into
built in my head: thus I demolish it, I a solution. The final finishing also gave
turn it down and I keep searching for a the building the material and chromatic
different solution. homogeneity I wanted to achieve: a
For a functional reason, in Tavira con- continuity between history and design,
vent I found myself in need of opening between ancient and new, throught
120 windows into the historical build- the material and, mainly, through the
ing walls, too much fragile and unsta- building technique.
ble, built in raw rammed earth more I worked a lot on the colour, too, on the
than 500 years ago (Fig. 2) and I was history of the building – rather articu-
forced to concentrate enormous efforts lated – and on its image, characterized
in the structural problems solution, be- by a provocative red pigment, so deep-
cause there was no space for reduction ly molded by time itself that it was im-
in the project: I had to obtain a lot of possible to reproduce it in the present
hotel rooms, each one with its own win- time. I thus opted for a white colour,
dow (Fig. 3). We had to develop a new but it was too bright and reflective and
building system, but we choosed to ex- it became a cream in the final solution.
ecute it in a traditional method (Fig. 4) But that red is unforgettable…
azione che Souto de Moura dimostra di praticare costantemente. Ad Amares avevo a che fare con una rovina totalmente degradata
Nel mostrare una spiccata sensibilità nella loro manipolazione, e diroccata, possente, di dimensioni monumentali, costruita con
egli esprime un’attitudine all’impiego di elementi molto diversi, enormi conci di pietra e con un doppio paramento murario. La
scelti in base alle loro specifiche qualità, per rispondere a un tema sua consistenza materica era potentissima. Potevo fidarmi della
compositivo, a una relazione con le preesistenze fisiche o figurative, forza del materiale da costruzione e, apparentemente, anche del-
alle sollecitazioni prodotte da un paesaggio, da uno scorcio, da un la composizione degli spazi – che però si sono dimostrati troppo
rudere, dalle testimonianze di antiche tecniche costruttive, la cui esigui e inadatti a risolvere il nuovo programma – e ho usato
memoria giunge a noi come preesistenza. liberamente questi materiali, facendo emergere della rovina le
Il termine “materia”, che pur nella sua semplicità, è espressione tracce della storia antica, inserendole nello spazio contempora-
di molti concetti e risponde a definizioni non univoche, nell’archi- neo. Devo ammettere che questa scelta ha presentato non pochi
tettura di Souto interpreta molto più di quanto etimologicamente problemi impiantistici e strutturali – le infrastrutture necessa-
traduca. Materia non è solo, tradizionalmente ed empiricamente, rie al funzionamento di un hotel sono sconvolgenti, in termini
il corpo solido che si può vedere e toccare, che oppone resistenza al di quantità, dimensioni e capillarità – e sarebbe stato molto più
nostro sforzo, che conserva, apparentemente invariato, il proprio facile ricostruire la volumetria ex novo. In effetti, la sfida con-
volume nel tempo; non è solo l’inerte e il pesante; non è solo qual- sisteva nel tentare di preservare il più possibile della struttura
cosa di permanente nel tempo, di stabile e di definitivo. originaria mentre la “forzavamo” per alloggiarvi la quantità
E.S.M. Sulla materia. … essa rappresenta il fondamento di ogni impressionante di tubi e cavi degli impianti di riscaldamento e
azione costruttiva, l’essenza dei corpi con cui siamo in grado di raffrescamento, idraulici ed elettrici. La costruzione finita con-
edificare. Penso che la materia non possa che essere intesa nel suo serva l’immagine del monumento claustrale medievale, eppure
significato più ampio, come tutto ciò che entra nel processo di tra-
sformazione, quanto è manipolabile, alterabile, innestabile nella
costruzione dell’architettura. Così il paesaggio – l’orografia, una | 05
09 | Torre Burgo, Porto, Portogallo, 1991-2007, riferimento (Archivio dei disegni di Eduardo
Souto de Moura)
Burgo Tower, Porto, Portugal, 1991-2007, reference (Eduardo Souto de Moura’s Drawings
Archive)
12 | | 13
the concrete. Both materials fit togeth- into something specifically practical and E.S.M. About technique. I never think have to admit that I often grow fond of
er well, I think. instrumental, based on experience and to a material or to a building system as a material, when I figure out a space,
knowledge and not only on fierce in- being better or worse than any other, and I carry on in experimenting it, just
B.B. The Greeks (τέχνη) understand spiration or brilliance. The word reads but only to the better material I can use for the desire to test its potentialities;
it as a capability of operating in order more into a passionate research about to achieve the effect I have in my mind or in using a technique, just because I
to attain a specific aim – for it is based building technique rather than in the and to the only building system the am curious of understanting its con-
on the knowledge and the experience of technological innovation path. This material leads me to. I use technique structive or aesthetic effectiveness.
how to reach it –; Latins (ars) as the ar- statement is evident even in the more and material based on their capability In some other situations – but only in
tistic experience in its specific aesthetic progressive buildings, the ones showing of offering something to me, on their a further phase, when I use technology
value – as proved by the many declen- the constructive truth subtended to the qualities and values and on their po- in a linguistic mode – the communica-
sions of “art” and “Kunst” in contempo- material options, or, in a deeper insight, tentialities. I change them repeatedly tion aspect surfaces. The Burgo tower
rary idioms –; Souto de Moura syntheti- the ones soaking the essence of the entire in time, if necessary. I do not insist in is a mix up of building technique and
cally translates the word “technique” project. using them in a mandatory way, but I language research: the external treat-
15 | | 16
15 | Stadio Municipale, Braga, Portogallo, 2000-2003 (foto di Francesco Cancelliere) 16 | Case a patio, Matosinhos, Portogallo, 1993-1999 (foto di Francesco Cancelliere).
Braga Stadium, Portugal, 2000-2003 (photo by Francesco Cancelliere) Patio-Houses, Matosinhos, Portugal, 1993-1999 (photo by Francesco Cancelliere)
ment openly denounces the mortise- ing two grandstand slabs and anchor in total intellectual and project eman- still usefule to solve a contemporary
joint nature of the building (Figg. 8, 9, the covering canopies held by tensed cipation. I am not interested in fixing design problem. I feel free to use the
10); in Rua do Teatro housing I broght up steel cables (Fig. 15). the existing buildings and in removing past with such an independence, but
the iron framework out to the façade: The way I employ materials and adopt them from life, dooming them to the also with coherence and honesty, with
beams, slabs, rivets, mounting systems building techniques in big buildings is role of look-from-safe-distance ob- very different purposes from the post-
(Fig. 11); in Viana do Castelo multi- not too different – at least in the meth- jects; I rather think it is important to modern architects, the true ones, but
purpose pavillion, all the structural, od; maybe it is in the result – from the involve them as active subjects in the with a deeply post-modern attitude in
mechanical and plant systems are dealt small scale buildings, such as the patio contemporary living spaces. This is practice.
with autonomously, in relation to the houses (Fig. 16), the Casa das Artes why I look at history – all of it: the an- In relation to the specific character of
building, and they are harboured on (Fig. 17), the projects dealing with an- cient world, the Greeks and Romans, each building, I choose to adopt either
the external façades (Fig. 12), which cient pre-existances or with the very Mies, Le Corbusier and his five prin- a traditional technique or a more in-
are designed by them, so that they are peculiar themes of archaeology and ciples of Modern Architecture – and novative one, I test the potentiality
moved to a communicative dimension sacred spaces. It makes no difference I use it to solve my design problems. linked to their use and their outcome
(Fig. 13). to me to work on small scale or large As an example, I use the curtain wall in building, economical and material
Braga stadium is the hardest challenge scale buildings, on historical monu- façade or the horizontal window – the terms. I look for names and surnames
I ever faced, both on a technical, struc- ments or present day spaces, because elements that convey all the innovative of local workmen active in that specific
tural and plant level and on a scale lev- I am not a moralist when it comes to issues and the extraordinary theoreti- site or building, the ones who keeps
el (Fig. 14): it has a collective character deal with historical heritage: when I cal coherence of the Modern Move- the knowledge and the secrets of the
– it must house a public of more than am called to make an intervention in ment – in a very disillusioned way, not ancient techniques. When I find myself
30000 spectators – so the program re- it, I read, I study, I understand, I check linked anymore to the state of necessity working on an ancient ruin, I pull my
quires strong safety measures and we and I build. and strictness of their original epoch. very modern cell phone and ask some-
opted for a specific structural scheme From this point of view, I really feel I I use them in a personal research and one: “How do you make cocciopesto?”,
– a sequence of concrete walls support- am post-modern, because I use history test perspective, because I find they are “How do I mix lime and pigments?”…
I’m always able to find someone who tably leads the project to graft to, to
knows how to do. Then I do it. adhere to and to adjust to places and to
their historical becoming, and some-
B.B. Architecture is defined and con- times even to conceal within them.
taining space. The place where the My researches focus on dimension, pro-
dwelling is fulfilled, where it expresses portion, orientation and connection:
itself in activities, in gestures, in move- from these researches the character of
ments, in residence, in memories. There the spaces I draft flows. I try and design
are several aspects contributing to its suitable and necessary architectures,
definition, from its delimiting surfaces both the new and the ancient ones,
treatment to its brightness, light, propor- which must be re-thought of and re-
tion, colour, accessibility, perception… built ex novo. It often happens that the
E.S.M. About space. I was never in- existing material of the last ones, already
terested in either making “the great available in loco, defines the structure
gesture” or marking the territory with and the quality of spaces. This simplifies
“great signs”. My buildings are rather my work: pre-existing elements are of a
born in a state of “positive uncertainty” great help in the design phase, because
following me through the design pro- they suggest a real and positively tested
cess. The doubts arise in great abun- possibility and they instill a gratifying
dance and they compel me to answer feeling of coherence and correctness.
endless questions; this continuous What I mostly do is studying the avail-
quarrell about coherence, suitability, able materials, understand their charac-
feasability, goodness of an idea inevi- ter and use them in the design.
molto vera.
Anche oggi, come una volta, può essere usata come materiale
strutturale perché non dà problemi di isolamento termico e acu-
stico se tagliata in spessori superiori ai cinquanta centimetri, ha
una notevole tenuta agli sforzi di compressione e si presta alla
sinergia con l’acciaio per sostenere trazione e taglio. La pietra
strutturale ci aiuta anche a interpretare e ben progettare il siste-
ma impiantistico, che non dovrebbe mai incidere la muratura, e
indebolirne la forza materica ed espressiva.
È una pazzia, quella di investire tanto nella costruzione di un
muro meraviglioso in pietra naturale o in cemento, di nascon- derna archeologia, si potessero leggere le tracce di un nartece, di
derlo con un altro muro in laterizio, di distruggerne la metà per un ambone con l’altare e la croce: una lastra di pietra distesa sul
collocarvi i cavi, i tubi e gli interruttori, per poi ricucire, tampo- pavimento (Fig. 20), un blocco lapideo lavorato sull’appoggio a
nare e ricostruire il muro una seconda volta. Una goffaggine del terra per librare a pochi centimetri dal pavimento, una fresata
processo costruttivo. orizzontale incisa a cavallo di due conci accostati (Fig. 21).
Molto più sano e intelligente sarebbe dare autonomia all’impian- All’inizio pensavo di usare il calcestruzzo, poi il contatto con il
tistica, mostrarla, accettarne la complessità e il fascino, studiare luogo, i confronti e le discussioni con un grande amico, France-
un nuovo linguaggio per la sua definitiva ammissione nell’inter- sco Dal Co, la disponibilità di un materiale locale meraviglioso,
nità dello spazio abitabile, e lasciar parlare il muro, farlo respira- la capacità tecnica di lavorazione di veri “mastri lapidei”, tutto
re, conservarne la potenza e l’identità. Ma non arrivo a farlo nei questo mi ha fatto cambiare idea. E ho costruito in pietra. Il
miei progetti; ahimè, non me lo lasciano fare! materiale è potente, autosufficiente e completo nel comunicare
Nella Cappella per il Vaticano (Fig. 19) sono però riuscito a l’architettura e nel definirne i caratteri, sia nella superficie sia
sperimentare l’uso massivo della pietra di Vicenza, con esiti nella sostanza, si presta a essere inciso, accostato, sovrapposto,
pregevoli, per realizzare un recinto sacro con blocchi modulari, a interpretare compiutamente il tema della costruzione, proprio
una soglia, un percorso, un piccolo patio all’aperto, uno spazio come nell’antichità.
interno coperto da due lastre monolitiche. Non doveva essere
propriamente una cappella, né un sepolcro, ma un santuario, a
scala ridotta. Volevo uno spazio austero e intimo, piccolissimo e
unitario, solitario, dove si potesse stare seduti ad aspettare, con
i piedi nella terra e la testa tra le mani, e dove, come in una mo-
B.B. In design and construction prac- testing solutions coherent with the site, teachers, in terms of architecture, tra- chitecture, before being thinking and
tice, the theme of “innovation” is una- both in patio houses and in high-rise dition and modernity, deeply marked design, is building.
voidable in present days dictating great buildings for apartments or offices; I my approach to design. At the same
creative speed, increase and acceleration commit myself to both typological and time I am concerned with studying B.B. Souto de Moura’s architecture
in productivity and systematization. technological experimentation, just as and testing innovative materials and speaks the universal language of mat-
Those inputs lead a designer like Souto long as it is necessary, complies with techniques, that may never deny the ter, sincere, straightforward, immediate:
de Moura – whose praxis and language the spatial and building issues and is unavoidable relation between building the white plaster, laid out on the faces of
came into form and became more re- able to solve real problems: I base my principles and material reality. the pure volumes, exposed to the bright
fined in the years of technological trans- idea of innovation on this kind of ex- In present days world, a designer is first portuguese light, is the tool used to en-
formation from traditional to innova- perimentation (Fig. 18). I don’t have of all required to be fast – in both crea- hance the magical chromatic and lin-
tive – to make a great effort. the ambition of re-founding architec- tive and production phases – to aware guistic relation between nature and ar-
E.S.M. About innovation. Innovation ture, nor of writing a new chapter in of economy and to be quite a media ex- tifact; concrete, plastic and permanently
interests to me only when it consists the history of building technology; I hibitionist; I sometimes feel that my ap- marked by the mold wood, conveys a
in the research of solutions to specific rather aim – strongly – to interpret the proach to profession is a bit out of date, deep affection to the historically refined
practical problems. I do not consider it innovation in my working practice, based as it is on both the “overuse” of techniques, which evolved in the hands
an a priori design theme and I do not doing the best that I can the things I time required by thinking and not grant- of present day craftsmen, although keep-
employ it without questioning. learnt to do, with all the energies and ed by clients and my stubborn bond to ing the bond with tradition; the stone,
I’ve been working for more than thirty resources available in logistic, techni- reality, which does not allow exceptions. which enhances the character of perma-
years with very simple tools, drawings, cal and of course economic terms. I feel excited by the challenges raised nence and weight in architecture when
models, but today in my office I can’t I worked a lot along with Fernando by the future, but I am not fascinated used massively, is the essence and the
do without young collaborators who Távora and, yet in present days, I work by the unmaterial dimension of the presence of space itself: the stones dwell
digitally develop my sketches; I deal sometimes with Siza; I can say that project, its abstract communication, physically in the architecture, they are
with my profession with the desire of what I leant from my masters and because building needs matter and ar- not meant only for defining its limits…
21 | Cappella per la Santa Sede, Isola di San Giorgio, Venezia, 2018 (foto di Barbara Bogoni)
Cappella per la Santa Sede, San Giorgio’s Island, Venezia, 2018 (photo by Barbara Bogoni)
NOTE | 21
1
Herberto Hélder de Oliveira (1930-2015), considerato uno dei più originali
poeti di lingua portoghese. Il poema “Memoria Montagem” è contenuto nel-
la raccolta Photomaton e Vox, Lisbona, 1979.
2
Rainer Maria Rilke, Lettere a un giovane poeta, (1929), Adelphi, Milano
1980.
20 |
E.S.M. I deeply trust the stone. … stone or cast concrete wall, and then chapel, nor a sepulchre, but a sanctu- true “master stone carvers”, all of this
stone is a fantastic material, ecologic hide it with a second brick wall, de- ary, at a reduced scale. I wanted an aus- made me change my mind. I then built
and economic, pictorial and commu- stroy half of it to let the cabçes, pipes tere and intimate space, tiny and uni- using stone: the material is powerful,
nicative. I never found an ungly stone, and switches be installed, and finally form, solitary, where one may sit and self-sufficient and complete in commu-
I don’t think it exists: the stone is aleays mend and build the wall again. It’s a wait, with his feet on the ground and nicating architecture and in defining its
wonderful, it has beautyful surfaces, clumsiness of the building project. the head in his hands, where the traces characters, both in surface and in sub-
colours, textures. It produces a very It would be much more sound and and marks of a nartex, an ambon, an stance; it can be carved, put close, over-
solid architecture, with the ambition of clever to give autonomy to plants, to altar and a cross could be recognized lapped, to fully interpret the theme of
being deeply true. show it, to accept its complexity and as in a modern archaeology: a stone building, precisely like in ancient times.
Even today, like in past times, it can be its charm, to study a new language slab laid down on the ground (Fig. 20),
used as a structural material, because for its admission in the internal qual- a stone block carved near its contact NOTES
it raises no problems of thermal insu- ity of inhabited space and let the wall surface to the ground, in order to let it 1
Herberto Hélder de Oliveira (1930-
lation when cut in blocks more than speak, let it breathe, keep its strenght float apparently few centimetres above 2015), is considered as one of the most
50cm thick, it has a great resistance and identity. But I cannot do that in my the floor, an horizontal milling carved original poets in portugues language.
to compression and works effectively projects, I am not allowed to! cross the joint between two close ash- His poem “Memoria Montagem”
with steel to resist to traction and cut- In the chapel for Vatican (Fig. 19) I was lars (Fig. 21). [“Memory Editing”] is contained in
ting stress. The structural stone helps nonetheless able to test successfully At the beginning, I thought I could use the collection Photomaton e Vox, Lis-
us to better understand and design the the massive use of Vicenza stone to cast concrete, but after the first contact bon, 1979.
plants systems, which should never build a sacred enclosure out of modu- with the place and the debates and ex- 2
Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a young
carve the walls and weaken their mate- lar blocks: a threshold, a path, a small changes of view with a great friend of poet (1929).
rial and expressive strenght. open-air patio, an interior space cov- mine, Francesco Dal Co; after recogniz-
It’s absurd to make such a great invest- ered by two monolithic slabs; the result ing the availability of a wonderful local English translation by Francesco Can-
ment in building a wonderful natural was excellent. It should not be exaclty a material and the technical capacity of celliere