21st March, 1938

Talk 476.

Dr. Stanley Jones, a Christian missionary, visited Maharshi. He writes books and delivers
lectures. He has two Asramams under his control in North India. He was accompanied by
another gentleman and two ladies. He is at present writing a book On the Indian Road and
wants to meet the spiritually great men in India so that he may collect material for the book. He
desired to know how the Indian sages have proceeded and what they have found as their
experience in divinity. So he asked questions. (This is only a short sketch of his interview).

D.: What is your quest? What is the goal? How far have you progressed?

M.: The goal is the same for all. But tell me why you should be in search of a goal? Why are you
not content with the present condition?

D.: Is there then no goal?

M.: Not so. What makes you seek a goal? It is a counter-question to be answered by you.

D.: I have my own ideas of these subjects. I want to know what Maharshi has to say.

M.: Maharshi has no doubts to be cleared.

D.: Well, I consider the goal to be the realisation by the lower mind of the higher mind so that
the Kingdom of Heaven might endure here on earth. The lower mind is incomplete and it must
be made perfect by realisation of the higher mind.

M.: So then you admit a lower mind which is incomplete and which seeks realisation of the
higher so that it may become perfect. Is that lower mind apart from the higher mind? Is it
independent of the other?

D.: The Kingdom of Heaven was brought down on Earth by Jesus Christ. I consider Him to be
the Kingdom personified. I want everyone to realise the same. He said: “I am hungry with other
men’s hunger;” and so on. Mutual partnership in pleasure and pain is the Kingdom of Heaven. If
that Kingdom is universalised everyone will feel at one with the rest.

M.: You speak of the differences between the lower and the higher minds, pleasures and pains.
What becomes of these differences in your sleep?

D.: But I want to be wide awake.

M.: Is this your wide awakened state? It is not. It is only a dream in your long sleep. All are in
sleep, dreaming of the world and things and actions.
D.: This is all Vedantic, I have no use for it. The existing differences are not imaginary. They are
positive. However, what is that real waking? Can Maharshi tell us what he has found it to be?

M.: Real waking lies beyond the three states of waking, dream and sleep.

D.: I am really awake and know that I am not in sleep.

M.: Real waking lies beyond the plane of differences.

D.: What is the state of the world then?

M.: Does the world come and tell you “I exist”?

D.: No. But the people in the world tell me that the world needs spiritual, social and moral
regeneration.

M.: You see the world and the people in it. They are your thoughts. Can the world be apart from
you?

D.: I enter into it with love.

M.: Before entering thus do you stand aloof?

D.: I am identified with it and yet remaining apart. Now I came here to ask Maharshi and hear
him. Why does he ask me questions?

M.: Maharshi has replied. His reply amounts to this: Real waking does not involve differences.

D.: Can such realisation be universalised?

M.: Where are differences there? There are no individuals in it.

D.: Have you reached the goal?

M.: The goal cannot be anything apart from the Self nor can it be something to be gained
afresh. If that were so, such goal cannot be abiding and permanent. What appears anew will
also disappear. The goal must be eternal and within. Find it within yourself.

D.: I want to know your experience.

M.: Maharshi does not seek enlightenment. The question is of no use to the questioner.
Whether I have realised or not, how does it affect the questioner?

D.: Not so. Each one’s experience has a human value in it and can be shared by others.
M.: The problem must be solved by the questioner himself. The question is best directed to
oneself.

D.: I know the answer to the question.

M.: Let us have it.

D.: I was shown the Kingdom of Heaven twenty years ago. It was by God’s grace only. I made
no effort for it. I was happy. I want to universalise, moralise and socialise it. At the same time I
want to know Maharshi’s experience of the Divine.

Mrs. Jinarajadasa intervened and spoke softly: We all agree that Maharshi has brought the
Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Why do you press him to answer your questions relating to his
realisation? It is for you to seek and gain it.

The questioner listened to her, argued slightly and resumed his questions to Maharshi. After
one or two light questions, Major Chadwick spoke sternly: “The Kingdom of Heaven is within
you,” says the Bible.

D.: How shall I realise it?

Major Chadwick: Why do you ask Maharshi to realise it for you?

D.: I do not.

Major Chadwick: The Kingdom is within you. You should realise it.

D.: It is within only for those who hear it.

Major Chadwick: The Bible says within you, and adds no qualifications.

The questioner felt his conversation was already too long and so retired after thanking Maharshi
and others.