Long, But Interesting Discussion Between Rapture Ready and An Atheist

scott p
scott p is offline Apologetics Only
Dec 2010
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25
Default Can I fit in here?
Hi everyone.
I've read a few threads by recent arrivals, and I find myself in a difficult
situation. You see, I'm an atheist, and I fear that no matter what I say about
my reasons for joining, I'm going to be in the shadow of every other atheist who
's come here, taken a shot at you, and then disappeared (perhaps even that last
sentences is going to be viewed with suspicion).
I don't want you to "ask me anything" like a recent guy, but I won't hide fr
om anything that's asked of me - that would just be rude to do so.
I don't plan on debating you guys on theology. I know I'm likely out of my d
epth there, and even I'm not silly enough to think a guy on an internet forum is
going to dispell anyone's long-held faith.
The reasons I've joined are threefold:
1) I see a lot of statements being made that are just plain incorrect. Not f
rom a theological view, but simple facts. I'd like to discuss those.
2) I'm curious about why you think what you think.
3) Yes, I could go somewhere else and talk with people who agree with me. Un
fortunately that sort of "me too" conversation won't hold my attention for very
long.
I hope I don't step on too many toes.
January 1st, 2011 03:57 PM 2

chrisb01
chrisb01
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Well, I want to welcome you. You are the reason we're here.
You see, God has put love in our hearts for all people. We want you in heave
n with us.
You have some questions, shoot.
Chris Baez, Jr.
January 1st, 2011 04:06 PM 3

Steve53
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Quote Originally Posted by scott p View Post
I've read a few threads by recent arrivals,
Please go ahead and read the "sticky" threads at the top of this forum. I th
ink it will save you a lot of time to do so.
As for your interpretation of what you feel are "incorrect" "simple facts" -
please be mindful of the board's posting rules when attempting any such discuss
ion.
The following is an excerpt from another thread which you may or may not hav
e already seen as it was just posted today -
Remember also, the people with whom you are communicating have not always be
en Christians. Your viewpoint is very well known and believe me when I say we ha
ve seen every objection, and "fact" and supposed "contradiction" you can possibl
y offer. You can package your questions only so many ways - there is nothing new
under the sun.
We will gladly provide you with information about our Lord and Saviour and a
nswer any sincere questions that you may have. The thing for us is in gauging yo
ur sincerity - you see, we're not convinced you came here to learn anything.
This isn't our first dance with a non-believer. Be very careful in how you g
o about attempting the presentation of your historical "facts" as any form of pr
oselytizing for atheism is a violation of the board's posting rules. Restrictive
? You bet. This forum is not a platform for atheists. Having said that, we will
entertain honest questions framed in a respectful manner.
"Questions" framed in a condescending and or cynically derisive tone will li
kely be edited for content if not deleted altogether. "Questions" that are merel
y nothing more than thinly disguised atheist evangelsim in the guise of a rebutt
al will also not be tolerated. This is not a debate forum.
Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, th
at whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be ac
ceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
January 1st, 2011 04:12 PM 4

Steve53
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Hi everyone.
Are you really an atheist Scott? Or are you an agnostic?

January 1st, 2011 04:16 PM 5

Mitsy
Mitsy
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Hi everyone.
I've read a few threads by recent arrivals, and I find myself in a difficult
situation. You see, I'm an atheist, and I fear that no matter what I say about
my reasons for joining, I'm going to be in the shadow of every other atheist who
's come here, taken a shot at you, and then disappeared (perhaps even that last
sentences is going to be viewed with suspicion).
I don't want you to "ask me anything" like a recent guy, but I won't hide fr
om anything that's asked of me - that would just be rude to do so.
I don't plan on debating you guys on theology. I know I'm likely out of my d
epth there, and even I'm not silly enough to think a guy on an internet forum is
going to dispell anyone's long-held faith.
The reasons I've joined are threefold:
1) I see a lot of statements being made that are just plain incorrect. Not f
rom a theological view, but simple facts. I'd like to discuss those.
3) Yes, I could go somewhere else and talk with people who agree with me. Un
fortunately that sort of "me too" conversation won't hold my attention for very
long.
You will have to give us exact examples of what was said that you don't agre
e with.
You may think Christians don't fully agree in what they believe. That is far
from the truth. There are fundamental truths that a Christian should believe. P
lease note there are people who use the TAG "Christian" who do not hold to the c
entral core of beliefs of a Christian that are based on the Bible. You can read
what these core of beliefs are in this forums Statement of Beliefs found here :-
http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?9-Do...iefs-Statement . You may find in thread
there are posts that do not meet with our core statement of beliefs as we do exp
lore (as per the Boards rules) other thinking or interpretations of the Bible. T
his will help you establish what we actually believe as apposed to what is actua
lly discussed.
Now athiests only really have ONE belief in common - "there is no god". Othe
r than that you can be as diverse and different as you like, there is no other b
asic common belief you all agree upon. Some athiests do make the effort to discr
edit those who do believe in a Diety. Of course there are some who are not bothe
red with others having a belief in a Diety.
So present your questions and it would be good if you were specific and clea
r. Then you won't get back a whole lot of various interpretations of what you ar
e trying to discuss. Not promising you won't get the odd zealous reply (Chrisita
ns are Saved not perfect).
Welcome to RR hope you get your answers and are able to understand what Chri
stians believe and why.
Cheers
Mitsy
January 1st, 2011 05:00 PM 6
KaiafromBergen
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Quote Originally Posted by Mitsy View Post
e with.
So, what's on your mind?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD, and against his anointed, Let us break their bands asunder, a
nd cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh:
Psalms 2:2-4a
January 1st, 2011 06:21 PM 7

Buzzardhut
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Buzzardhut.net |The Watch Parables | The Rapture | Romans | The Virgin Mary
Never Heard of Jesus? | The Evidence Bible | Tent Meeting | Humanism & Athei
sm
January 2nd, 2011 01:40 AM 8

scott p
Dec 2010
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Quote Originally Posted by steve53 View Post
Are you really an atheist Scott? Or are you an agnostic?
I'm an atheist because I don't believe in any gods. I'm an agnostic because
I'm open to being convinced.
Quote Originally Posted by Mitsy View Post
e with.
There are a few, but I'll start with this one...
I hear a lot of people, including here at RR, saying that a Christian quotin
g the Bible about homosexuality in Canada is commiting a hate crime and can be i
mprisoned for it. Any opinions on that?
January 2nd, 2011 02:17 AM 9

ThePenguin
ThePenguin
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I've never heard that before but with the way the world is today it wouldn't
surprise me if it were true.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not s
een. Hebrews 11:1
In the event of darkness, depression, sadness, or loneliness, your Bible can
be used as a flotation device.
January 2nd, 2011 04:30 AM 10

Steve53
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Any opinions on that?
Lots. But this is the wrong forum for that topic.
Next.

January 2nd, 2011 12:13 PM 11

scott p
Dec 2010
Posts
25
Question
Lots. But this is the wrong forum for that topic.
Next.
I thought that as a new member I was only allowed to post in this part of th
e forum. What should I talk about? I see threads in this section about a range o
f subjects.
January 2nd, 2011 12:27 PM 12

Nightelf
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The thing is, any "opinion" on this is moot. I'm Canadian and I've never *he
ard* of anyone being imprisoned for such a charge, but that doesn't mean they ha
ven't, I just haven't heard of it. But either way, this isn't a topic for "opini
on", it just "is what it is" - either they are, or they aren't.
This is the Apologetics forum and Steve is right, this isn't the place for d
ebating politics or opinions, it's for talking about our faith.
What's keeping you from believing that Jesus is the Son of God?
I Has BANHAMMER!!!!
THE HARVEST IS PLENTIFUL, BUT THE WORKERS ARE FEW. Won't you join us in spre
ading the Gospel?
RR END TIMES CHALLENGE: The RACE to the FINISH!!!
The Star of David with cross is my new Facebook Avatar, to publically show m
y support of Israel. Feel free to copy it and do the same.
January 2nd, 2011 01:00 PM 13

HeIsEnough
HeIsEnough
HeIsEnough is offline elmod
Apr 2007
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Default Can I fit in here?
Well, this is a fellowship of believers in Christ. So "fitting in" is along
those lines, you tell us.
This one may be legit (done respectfully), in that you want to learn about G
od, what He personally says to you. The enormity of rebelling against what Chris
t commands of you is beyond words. If you don't know the Lord, then none of your
other problems or questions matter, to put it bluntly. I think you can discuss
these specific things, you'll at least have a clear understanding about the most
important subject of all, your soul, even if you're not persuaded.
You can do what God says.
___________
Don't panic! Just be Rapture Ready.
___________
"Behold, I make all things new."
God
___________
Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest,
whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are l
ovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if ther
e be any praise, think on these things.
January 2nd, 2011 01:24 PM 14

Wally
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Welcome Scott.
Just a brief aside, there was a pastor fined for quoting the Bible about hom
osexuality in a newspaper ad in Canada a year or more ago. I don't know how or i
f an appeal took place, but certianly this subject will gain momentum. But enoug
h of that.
Here on Apolo we talk about Jesus. Since you state you are agnostic, then pe
rhaps you are at least willing to examine the evidence for Christ.
But first - Who is Jesus to You? What do you know of Him?
**PS most of us here wear steel-tipped shoes. BTDT

Wallace - Brave New Heart (in Christ)
John 1:1-3 NKJV --- Luke 22:42 NKJV --Romans 3:23 NKJV, Rom 5:8 NKJV, Rom 8:
28 NKJV, Rom 8:31 NKJV, Rom8:38-39 NKJV, ---Titus 1:2 NKJV - Heb 6:18 NKJV --- J
ohn 14:6 NKJV --- 1 John 5:13 NKJV --- Acts 16:29-31 NKJV ... John 6:28-29 NKJV.
.. 1John 2:22 NKJV... Heb 10:11-13 NKJV
Oh Look,... an Atheist.............I Don't believe it................. Every k
nee will bow, Every tongue confess, Jesus Is Lord. Will it be in fear, or Love f
or Your Savior?
January 2nd, 2011 02:38 PM 15

Kliska
Kliska
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So, you are an agnostic. Atheists say there is no God, Agnostics say you can
't be 100% certain.
Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig
January 2nd, 2011 04:03 PM 16

ComeLordJesus
ComeLordJesus
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I used to be an atheist then Satan tipped his hand in my life. If supernatur
al demons exist, then so can a supernatural God. I had to turn to God to save my
life. It now seems inconceivable that I was an atheist. But even then deep down
I 'feared' Him.
Check out my intro in the new members subforum.
January 2nd, 2011 05:14 PM 17

Mitsy
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Apr 2007
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I don't know what the Laws in Canda are I'm from Australia. Interesting I ha
ven't heard about this.
I guess you are asking if a person should be imprisoned for stating their re
ligious beliefs? It's not my job to make the laws of any country that is up to t
he Governing Authorities.
As a Christian I believe what the Bible says. I would like to have the freed
om to share or express those beliefs without going to jail. If as a Christian we
have to go to jail to publically share what the Bible says then I guess we have
to go to jail. You understand that it may soon be illegal for Christians to eve
n express various teachings from the Bible in their own churches not just in a p
ublic forum like a newspaper or a public hall etc... Already you cannot mention
the name of Jesus in many public places and it isn't an actual law but some have
been prosecuted for doing so. People have been pulled off American streets for
handing out Bibles or Christian Tracts and for evangelising on street corners.
Many of the Apostles in the time of Jesus ended up in jail for expressing wh
at they believed. Some even died for them. Jesus warned Christians we will face
Government and other Authorities for holding out beliefs.
MT 10:17 "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local
councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought
before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But whe
n they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time
you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spir
it of your Father speaking through you.
AC 16:19 When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of makin
g money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketpla
ce to face the authorities. 20 They brought them before the magistrates and said
, "These men are Jews, and are throwing our city into an uproar 21 by advocating
customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice."
No surprise that by supporting our faith publically we may face some Governm
ents or Authorities that will find what we have to say is offence and even decla
re it illegal. Christians should expect they may have to face some retaliation t
o what the believe.
It would be nice not to be jailed or worse for what we believe but that is n
ot the reality. Many countries around the world today totally outlaw Christianit
y all together. So it doesn't matter what part of the Bible you quote or share y
ou can be jailed or worse.
AC 25:6 After spending eight or ten days with them, he went down to Caesarea
, and the next day he convened the court and ordered that Paul be brought before
him. 7 When Paul appeared, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood arou
nd him, bringing many serious charges against him, which they could not prove.
AC 25:8 Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the l
aw of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar."
AC 25:9 Festus, wishing to do the Jews a favor, said to Paul, "Are you willi
ng to go up to Jerusalem and stand trial before me there on these charges?"
AC 25:10 Paul answered: "I am now standing before Caesar's court, where I ou
ght to be tried. I have not done any wrong to the Jews, as you yourself know ver
y well. 11 If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not
refuse to die. But if the charges brought against me by these Jews are not true,
no one has the right to hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar!"
History has a habit of repeating itself. I can imagine Christians may even b
e arrested on false grounds jsut because what they believe is unpopular. However
that is speculation and not what is the current situation in Western Nations. I
t could be the case in China or some Islamic countries but I don't have any News
stories to back that up. So I will say it is only my Opinion for now.
January 3rd, 2011 01:59 AM 18
scott p
Dec 2010
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Thanks for the interest in my comments about The Canadian hate speech laws.
Unfortunately two mods have told me that I can't discuss it. Although I have no
intention of using that subject to call your faith into question, I have to resp
ect their rules.
January 3rd, 2011 02:17 AM 19

scott p
Dec 2010
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Quote Originally Posted by Kliska View Post
So, you are an agnostic. Atheists say there is no God, Agnostics say you can
't be 100% certain.
I'm pretty sure that you know, and understand, what I'm going to say. But I
need to say it, just so you know that I know too. That saves us the trouble of g
oing down that "no gold in China" path, and we can be honest in our discussions.
A/theism is about belief. A/gnoticism is about knolwedge.
I don't believe in God. That makes me an atheist.
I don't think we can know for sure if God exists. That make me an agnostic.
Some atheists do indeed say there is no God - they are gnostic atheists. All
I say is that I don't believe.
January 3rd, 2011 02:23 AM 20

Nightelf
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So..... when a loved one dies, where do you imagine them to be? Where do you
*wish* they were after passing on? Do you imagine them in a heaven somewhere, o
r do you believe they've just stopped existing?
I Has BANHAMMER!!!!
ading the Gospel?
HumbleBerean
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Im confused. Your position is that there is a God but you dont believe in Hi
m because you cant be sure He exists? Kinda like there is a car in my driveway b
ut I dont believe it is there? And you cant be for sure it is there so you cant
be sure it exists?
Who do you say Jesus is? What do you think of Jesus?
2 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version)
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctri
ne, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
January 3rd, 2011 05:08 AM 22

Kliska
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And this is all subjective semantic word games. This is the actual definitio
n of atheism: the belief that there is no God/god(s)/goddesses, etc... Agnostici
sm: the belief that we cannot be certain of knowledge, including the uncertainty
of the existence of God/god(s)/goddesses, etc...
You are an agnostic. There is a fad in today's society that everyone who doe
sn't believe in God seems to want the label "atheist." It seems to me that it is
because it is seen as being more in-your-face rebellious. Which underscores par
t of the heart issues involved...but enough about semantics.
January 3rd, 2011 06:05 AM 23

Steve53
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Although I have no intention of using that subject to call your faith into q
uestion,
Know this up front - neither "that subject" nor any other will be used to do
so. Any attempts under any pretense to call our faith into question will get yo
u shown the door.
This forum is not a soapbox for non-belief. Proselytizing for atheism/agnost
icism is not permitted and inserting little "stealth" comments such as the above
, do in fact, break the rules.
I have to respect their rules.
Yes, you do. Are we clear?

January 3rd, 2011 01:13 PM 24

Mitsy
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Apr 2007
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Thanks for the interest in my comments about The Canadian hate speech laws.
Unfortunately two mods have told me that I can't discuss it. Although I have no
intention of using that subject to call your faith into question, I have to resp
ect their rules.
You're welcome I hope I was able to give you the Biblical answer to your que
stion so you are able to understand where a Christian stands when these kinds of
opposition to our Belief occurs.
Is there anything you want to know about the Christian faith. What we believ
e in for example? Actually the central question to ask is "who is Jesus Christ?"
.
Here is something interesting that you might like to know about Jesus. Islam
claims that Jesus was a prophet for their religion YET Jesus lived and died 600
years before Islam even existed. Jesus Christ's death on the Cross established
Christianity. His followers carefully wrote His teachings for us which are recor
ded in the Bible, and we have archaeological documents to authenticate our writi
ngs. Yet Islam claims him as theirs even though historicially Jesus existed befo
re Mohamed was born. Well I find that an interesting.
January 3rd, 2011 09:07 PM 25

scott p
Dec 2010
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Quote Originally Posted by Nightelf View Post
So..... when a loved one dies, where do you imagine them to be? Where do you
*wish* they were after passing on? Do you imagine them in a heaven somewhere, o
r do you believe they've just stopped existing?
I believe they ve just stopped existing. If I were to wish anything, perhaps I
might wish they were still alive, but wishing won t bring them back.
Quote Originally Posted by HumbleBerean View Post

Im confused. Your position is that there is a God but you dont believe in Hi
m because you cant be sure He exists? Kinda like there is a car in my driveway b
ut I dont believe it is there? And you cant be for sure it is there so you cant
be sure it exists?
No, I didn t say there is a God (I apologise if it was unclear). And to say th
at I don t believe because I can t be sure isn t accurate either. The reason I don t bel
ieve it is because I don t accept what s been presented as evidence. I could be 100%
sure about knowing the answer and still come up with a no.
Who do you say Jesus is? What do you think of Jesus?
I ve got no reason to doubt that Jesus (or someone like him) existed as a hist
orical figure there were likely a number of Jewish preachers who travelled from
town to town in his time. It s the Son of God part that I don t buy into. If you tak
e away the miracles, you re left with a decent guy giving out mostly good advice.
And this is all subjective semantic word games. This is the actual definitio
n of atheism: the belief that there is no God/god(s)/goddesses, etc... Agnostici
sm: the belief that we cannot be certain of knowledge, including the uncertainty
of the existence of God/god(s)/goddesses, etc...
You are an agnostic. There is a fad in today's society that everyone who doe
sn't believe in God seems to want the label "atheist." It seems to me that it is
because it is seen as being more in-your-face rebellious. Which underscores par
t of the heart issues involved...but enough about semantics.
If there s one thing I m not, it s a fad-following, in-your-face, wannabe rebel. S
o that s not my reason. I think you ll find that most proper dictionaries will also
include disbelief of God if they include denial of God at all.
Although I suspect the number is small, you probably have members here who s
ay we can t be certain of God s existence, but believe he exists all the same as a m
atter of faith. Would you refuse to call them theists?
If you likewise refuse to acknowledge me as an atheist, are you saying that
belief in something is the same as the ability to know about it? One must, by ne
cessity, fall on either side of the theist/atheist fence. Gnostic/agnostic is no
t a third option, but a distinction made on a different aspect.
But, call me agnostic if you wish
Know this up front - neither "that subject" nor any other will be used to do
so. Any attempts under any pretense to call our faith into question will get yo
u shown the door.
This forum is not a soapbox for non-belief. Proselytizing for atheism/agnost
icism is not permitted and inserting little "stealth" comments such as the above
, do in fact, break the rules.
No calling faith into question. No soapbox or proselytising. No stealth comm
ents. No hidden agendas.
Just observations on other people s statements that contain factual errors. Th
ings like if you do (a), then (b) will happen to you . Or the majority of the countr
y says (c) when the majority actually says (d). Statements that happen to have be
en made here at RR, and are then likely being repeated, perhaps by you yourself,
elsewhere. We all want the basics of what we say to contain the truth, don t we?
Perhaps I need to PM you to run one by you, hopefully get the okay to post i
t up. Would that be preferable, Steve?
January 3rd, 2011 09:19 PM 26

Nightelf
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I believe they ve just stopped existing. If I were to wish anything, perhaps I
might wish they were still alive, but wishing won t bring them back.
Thanks for answering honestly.

I ve got no reason to doubt that Jesus (or someone like him) existed as a hist
orical figure there were likely a number of Jewish preachers who travelled from
town to town in his time. It s the Son of God part that I don t buy into. If you tak
e away the miracles, you re left with a decent guy giving out mostly good advice.
Well, if that's all Jesus was, was a decent guy, or a wise man or any number
of descriptions I've heard (that accept His existence by deny His Deity), then
why did his Disciples willingly die terrible deaths because of their faith in Hi
m? No one would die like that (being tortured, sawn in two, beaten, stoned to de
ath, cruicified upside down, beheaded, just to name a few) for a mere "decent gu
y". Don't you think there was "something" about Jesus, something beyond mere hum
anity, that made His disciples follow him all the way to torturous deaths?
I Has BANHAMMER!!!!
ading the Gospel?
January 4th, 2011 02:06 AM 27

scott p
Dec 2010
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25
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Over nine hundred people died at Jonestown. And Jim Jones wasn't even a dece
nt guy.
I don't know enough about the disciples' deaths to comment right now, so I'l
l do some reading first. The only thing I recall (and I could be wrong) is that
only a couple may have been mentioned in the Bible.
January 4th, 2011 04:03 AM 28

Wally
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Hello again Scott,
If you could, please read these questions carefully and try to elaborate in
your answer. So far the answers I have received from "atheists/agnostics" have b
een rather weak, maybe you can dig deeper.
What would God have to do to convince you of His existance? What is it about
that act that would cause you to believe? Why even believe that action?
If by chance God did a miracle in your life, would you only continue to beli
eve Him based on His performance?
or Your Savior?
January 4th, 2011 06:23 AM 29

Kliska
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If you take away the miracles, you re left with a decent guy giving out mostly
good advice.
If you take away the miracle, you are left with a complete nut, or a fraud.
But, you are right, you take away the miracle and you are left with a man. The k
icker is this; you can't take away the miracle. The evidence is for it.
atter of faith. Would you refuse to call them theists?
This is again semantic word games. Theists believe there is a God. Atheists
say there is no God. Agnostics say you cannot know either way.
One must, by necessity, fall on either side of the theist/atheist fence. Gno
stic/agnostic is not a third option, but a distinction made on a different aspec
t.
You are begging the question, and false dilemma here; agnosticism is indeed
a third position, sometimes seen as a more "wishy-washy" one, but nevertheless.
You are on a proselytizing Christian website...and you are here to nitpick a
nd correct us on what you see as mundane factual errors... Why don't we talk abo
ut life, the universe, and everything; including the fact of God and your immort
al soul? It's far more interesting.
Your Jim Jones analogy falls flat.
Quote Originally Posted by Kliska
In this post, I ll be discussing one of the evidences for the Resurrection via
a look at the Disciples themselves.
1. What message did the Disciples preach?
2. What we can learn by looking at the change of attitude and personality of
the disciples pre and post-Resurrection, and their manner of death.
3. Examining how their deaths are fundamentally different than the deaths of
believers of other faiths and beliefs.
The Disciples were eye witnesses of the happenings around Jesus life, death,
and resurrection. They were Jesus close companions and had first-hand knowledge o
f His claims. After Jesus crucifixion they preached Him raised. Not only that, th
ey preached Him raised amongst other eye witnesses to Jesus life and death, even
in the very city where He was crucified!
This is Peter speaking in front of the crowd, post Jesus resurrection, in Jer
usalem:
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man appro
ved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in
the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of Go
d, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it w
as not possible that he should be holden of it.
2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David,
that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath
to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise u
p Christ to sit on his throne;
2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his sou
l was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Paul speaks of this quite clearly as well:
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also r
eceived, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according
to the scriptures:
15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom
the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an ap
ostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestow
ed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet no
t I, but the grace of God which was with me.
15:11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some amo
ng you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith
is also vain.
15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testifie
d of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead
rise not.
15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your si
ns.
Study the Resurrection, it is the lynchpin of the Christian Faith. If Jesus
came out of that tomb, then we too can have faith in Him and His Father. Jesus c
laimed He would raise, so that is the question to answer did He? We have other e
vidence that the body was missing, we know that in Matthew we have a popular the
ory crop up from the disbelieving Priests:
Matthew 28:11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into
the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
28:12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, t
hey gave large money unto the soldiers,
28:13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while
we slept.
28:14 And if this come to the governor s ears, we will persuade him, and secur
e you.
28:15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying i
s commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
So, we have the Disciples preaching Jesus had risen and in fact they preache
d He walked and talked and even ate with them after the Crucifixion. Remember, t
hey were His close companions in life, eye witnesses to His teaching, death, and
resurrection. We also know that the disciples were persecuted both directly aft
er the resurrection, and in centuries later.
Now, we examine the evidence of the changing Disciples, let s look at some exa
mples:
We ve got Peter. Before the resurrection Peter denied the Lord three times for
the sake of his own skin. He fled and hid, he could not be counted on. After th
e Resurrection, and then the coming of the Spirit, Peter finally fulfills the na
me Jesus gave him and becomes so firm in the faith he could not be intimidated.
He came out in front of the hostile crowd at Pentecost and proclaimed Christ ris
en. How did Peter die? Crucified upside down for his teachings.
We ve got John. One of the Sons of Thunder, as Jesus called the brothers. He s o
ne of the pair that asked the Lord this:
Luke 9:52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered in
to a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would g
o to Jerusalem.
9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt t
hou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Eli
as did ?
9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of s
pirit ye are of.
Beloved John, ready to burn the unbelievers for their unbelief. We also have
record of these Sons of Thunder being so bold and prideful to ask Jesus to be s
eated at His side not only this, they sent their momma to ask Him for them. What h
appens to John after the Resurrection? He becomes the Apostle of Love, so from S
on of Thunder to the Apostle of Love. How does John wind up? He is banished for
his unmovable, un-recanted teachings, based on the fact that Christ rose from th
e dead.
We ve got Thomas. Skeptics love Thomas, as they should. The problem comes in w
hen they don t let Thomas teach them. Good ol doubting Thomas. Thomas doubted the L
ord the whole time he walked with Him. He questions everything. After the Lord w
as resurrected we see Thomas questioning again. He s not going to be happy til he p
hysically touches Jesus. After the Resurrection what do we have? Thomas never qu
estioning the Lord again, taking the Faith to India, never waivering put to deat
h by spear (some reports a sword) proclaiming the Resurrection of our Lord.
We ve got many other examples amongst the disciples; Bartholemew flayed to dea
th with a whip in Armenia for proclaiming the Resurrection, Andrew crucified, Lu
ke hanged, Mark dragged to death.
We ve got Paul; number one persecuter of the Christians. Loathed Christians, h
ated them. Jesus knocks him on his behind in the dirt, appears to him resurrecte
d and Paul is a new man.
These men were changed folks. Fundamentally, their very personalities change
d. What changed them? They, all but perhaps one, were too scared even to be at t
he crucifixion of the Lord, hiding but then what?! The Resurrection. Then what? Th
ese men willing to put all on the line for what they literally witnessed with th
eir own two eyes.
These disciples died alone, thousands of miles apart from each other. They d
ied horrible deaths for their eye witness testimony. Did these men back the wron
g horse, a dead man, and perpetuate a known lie? Or were they telling the absolu
te truth, a Truth they were willing to die for? They claimed and taught not just
a faith, or a belief, they taught a FACT. That Jesus Christ rose from the dead
and ate with them, that Thomas put his hand on Him, etc They never ever waivered!
! I ve also heard several atheists/agnostics admit that these men did indeed chang
e, and that they can t explain why, but it couldn t have been because of the resurre
ction, because miracles can t occur, therefore it didn t occur, and anyone who says
they did is wrong, because miracles can t occur, therefore they didn t occur, and an
yone who . Basically they fell pray to circular logic in an attempt to explain awa
y the changes in these men.
Some say, Well, what about all those other people that died for their religio
n? In my college Logic class I teach all about comparisons. One of the first rule
s in comparisons is to ask some very important questions, the main one being; ar
e the two things even comparable? In this case, these eye witness disciples deat
hs are not even comparable to the deaths of others defending their religions, ev
en modern Christian martyrs. How so?
All those other people died for firm belief, no doubt about it. Early muslim
s died for a belief, they died for their faith, they died for what they thought
was the truth. Atheist skeptics would have us believe these Disciples of Christ
would have died for a known lie. Again, how is this different? The Disciples did
n t spread the Gospel based on teachings, belief, faith, or private revelations fr
om God, they spread the Gospel based on an Historical Event, or FACT, or Person
that they claimed to be eye witnesses to the Resurrected Christ.
There is no such objective, historical event, objectively varifiable at the
time, that the Muslims, or any other believer has died for; the Muslims died for
the belief that Muhammed has received instruction from God via private revelati
on, and for those beliefs passed on. We have the disciples preaching this FACT o
f the Resurrection to individuals who were free to go check out their story. The
preaching of Jesus resurrection was spread during all of these eyewitnesses life
times. These radically changed men did not die for a known lie that they had con
cocted.
So, with the Disciples as eye witnesses, with the Disciples who gave up thei
r lives for the message of the Resurrection, I too proclaim that Christ is risen
! I too proclaim that this Historical Fact withstands the test of time! And I to
o proclaim that with Christ as our example we can hang our bodies and souls on t
he Promises of the Father. Our faith and beliefs are not blind, as skeptics woul
d have other believe, but are based on historical events, logic, reason, and the
Grace of God.
For all the skeptics reading this, go make your own serious study of these f
acts, and make your choice. For those of you who do not trust the reliability of
the witnesses in all of this, here is a good bit of free reading: Testimony of
the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf; Greenleaf, one of the principle founders of t
he Harvard Law School, originally set out to disprove the biblical testimony con
cerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was certain that a careful examinat
ion of the internal witness of the Gospels would dispel all the myths at the hea
rt of Christianity. But this legal scholar came to the conclusion that the witne
sses were reliable, and that the resurrection did in fact happen.
January 4th, 2011 07:08 AM 30

davidswife
davidswife is offline Regular Member
Apr 2010
Location
gulf coast
Posts
405
Eyes What if you're wrong?
What if you're wrong? Have you ever considered that? Is that why you're here
? I sure hope so and here is why. You can live your short life here rejecting th
e one who we believe in and if you're right ......you just die and that's the en
d. (How lovely!) But if you're wrong you run the risk of eternal judgement. We b
elieve hell is a place that is real and somewhere you don't want to go. On the o
ther hand, you can simply have the humility and faith like a child to accept the
life that Jesus offers each one of us because He love us and he loves you. I'm
not saying it will be a life without problems but it is a very fulfilling one. W
e care about your soul. We don't want you to be lost. It doesn't matter what you
've done, how educated you are what your friends and family would think. Jesus m
akes all things new. Open your heart.
January 4th, 2011 07:37 AM 31

acceptedinthebeloved
acceptedinthebeloved is offline Regular Member
May 2008
Posts
2,467
Default
Originally Posted by Kliska
In this post, I ll be discussing one of the evidences for the Resurrection via
a look at the Disciples themselves.
1. What message did the Disciples preach?
2. What we can learn by looking at the change of attitude and personality of
the disciples pre and post-Resurrection, and their manner of death.
3. Examining how their deaths are fundamentally different than the deaths of
believers of other faiths and beliefs.
The Disciples were eye witnesses of the happenings around Jesus life, death,
and resurrection. They were Jesus close companions and had first-hand knowledge o
f His claims. After Jesus crucifixion they preached Him raised. Not only that, th
ey preached Him raised amongst other eye witnesses to Jesus life and death, even
in the very city where He was crucified!
This is Peter speaking in front of the crowd, post Jesus resurrection, in Jer
usalem:
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man appro
ved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in
the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of Go
d, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it w
as not possible that he should be holden of it.
2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David,
that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath
to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise u
p Christ to sit on his throne;
2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his sou
l was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Paul speaks of this quite clearly as well:
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also r
eceived, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according
to the scriptures:
15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom
the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an ap
ostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestow
ed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet no
t I, but the grace of God which was with me.
15:11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some amo
ng you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith
is also vain.
15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testifie
d of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead
rise not.
15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your si
ns.
Study the Resurrection, it is the lynchpin of the Christian Faith. If Jesus
came out of that tomb, then we too can have faith in Him and His Father. Jesus c
laimed He would raise, so that is the question to answer did He? We have other e
vidence that the body was missing, we know that in Matthew we have a popular the
ory crop up from the disbelieving Priests:
Matthew 28:11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into
the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
28:12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, t
hey gave large money unto the soldiers,
28:13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while
we slept.
28:14 And if this come to the governor s ears, we will persuade him, and secur
e you.
28:15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying i
s commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
So, we have the Disciples preaching Jesus had risen and in fact they preache
d He walked and talked and even ate with them after the Crucifixion. Remember, t
hey were His close companions in life, eye witnesses to His teaching, death, and
resurrection. We also know that the disciples were persecuted both directly aft
er the resurrection, and in centuries later.
Now, we examine the evidence of the changing Disciples, let s look at some exa
mples:
We ve got Peter. Before the resurrection Peter denied the Lord three times for
the sake of his own skin. He fled and hid, he could not be counted on. After th
e Resurrection, and then the coming of the Spirit, Peter finally fulfills the na
me Jesus gave him and becomes so firm in the faith he could not be intimidated.
He came out in front of the hostile crowd at Pentecost and proclaimed Christ ris
en. How did Peter die? Crucified upside down for his teachings.
We ve got John. One of the Sons of Thunder, as Jesus called the brothers. He s o
ne of the pair that asked the Lord this:
Luke 9:52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered in
to a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would g
o to Jerusalem.
9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt t
hou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Eli
as did ?
9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of s
pirit ye are of.
Beloved John, ready to burn the unbelievers for their unbelief. We also have
record of these Sons of Thunder being so bold and prideful to ask Jesus to be s
eated at His side not only this, they sent their momma to ask Him for them. What h
appens to John after the Resurrection? He becomes the Apostle of Love, so from S
on of Thunder to the Apostle of Love. How does John wind up? He is banished for
his unmovable, un-recanted teachings, based on the fact that Christ rose from th
e dead.
We ve got Thomas. Skeptics love Thomas, as they should. The problem comes in w
hen they don t let Thomas teach them. Good ol doubting Thomas. Thomas doubted the L
ord the whole time he walked with Him. He questions everything. After the Lord w
as resurrected we see Thomas questioning again. He s not going to be happy til he p
hysically touches Jesus. After the Resurrection what do we have? Thomas never qu
estioning the Lord again, taking the Faith to India, never waivering put to deat
h by spear (some reports a sword) proclaiming the Resurrection of our Lord.
We ve got many other examples amongst the disciples; Bartholemew flayed to dea
th with a whip in Armenia for proclaiming the Resurrection, Andrew crucified, Lu
ke hanged, Mark dragged to death.
We ve got Paul; number one persecuter of the Christians. Loathed Christians, h
ated them. Jesus knocks him on his behind in the dirt, appears to him resurrecte
d and Paul is a new man.
These men were changed folks. Fundamentally, their very personalities change
d. What changed them? They, all but perhaps one, were too scared even to be at t
he crucifixion of the Lord, hiding but then what?! The Resurrection. Then what? Th
ese men willing to put all on the line for what they literally witnessed with th
eir own two eyes.
cocted.
So, with the Disciples as eye witnesses, with the Disciples who gave up thei
r lives for the message of the Resurrection, I too proclaim that Christ is risen
! I too proclaim that this Historical Fact withstands the test of time! And I to
o proclaim that with Christ as our example we can hang our bodies and souls on t
he Promises of the Father. Our faith and beliefs are not blind, as skeptics woul
d have other believe, but are based on historical events, logic, reason, and the
Grace of God.
For all the skeptics reading this, go make your own serious study of these f
acts, and make your choice. For those of you who do not trust the reliability of
the witnesses in all of this, here is a good bit of free reading: Testimony of
the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf [linked in Kliska's post, above]; Greenleaf, o
ne of the principle founders of the Harvard Law School, originally set out to di
sprove the biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He wa
s certain that a careful examination of the internal witness of the Gospels woul
d dispel all the myths at the heart of Christianity. But this legal scholar came
to the conclusion that the witnesses were reliable, and that the resurrection d
id in fact happen.
Great post!
The Jim Jones followers died for an idea... Jesus' disciples were martyred f
or something they SAW. Something they actually WITNESSED. Vast difference.
Again, pulling out a portion of Kliska's post:

cocted.
January 4th, 2011 08:16 AM 32

iSong6:3
iSong6:3
iSong6:3 is offline Standing with Israel Mod
Sep 2007
Posts
15,444
Default
Over nine hundred people died at Jonestown. And Jim Jones wasn't even a dece
nt guy.
Jonestown was an insular cult, Jones was a cult leader and had control over
his followers. He ordered them to commit suicide by drinking cyanide-laced kool-
aid. That's where the term *they drank the kool-aid* came from. Sadly for his fo
llowers, their deaths meant no more than that.
I don't know enough about the disciples' deaths to comment right now, so I'l
l do some reading first. The only thing I recall (and I could be wrong) is that
only a couple may have been mentioned in the Bible.
It is very clear that there is much you've spoken of here that you don't kno
w and/or understand.
So go ahead and read about the disciples' martyrdoms - and not in the readil
y available online *how to answer fundies' arguments*.
They were demanded to renounce their faith in Jesus as the Son of God. They
could not by virtue of their individual consciences. They were therefore torture
d to death.
Materially different from the suicides ordered by delusional cult leaders wh
o want to avoid justice.
Jesus warned us of the end times - that false *christs* would arrive and ann
ounce themselves and deceive many. We have Biblical warnings and a spiritual sen
se that you don't have because you're not born of His Spirit - it's called disce
rnment. Jesus is the Good Shepherd.
Most of what we say to you, if you're not interested in truth, will be ridic
ulous to you.
18For the story and message of the cross is sheer absurdity and folly to tho
se who are perishing and on their way to perdition, but to us who are being save
d it is the [manifestation of] the power of God.
19For it is written, I will baffle and render useless and destroy the learni
ng of the learned and the philosophy of the philosophers and the cleverness of t
he clever and the discernment of the discerning; I will frustrate and nullify [t
hem] and bring [them] to nothing.(A) from 1 Corinthians 1 (Amplified Bible)
Then I said, Behold, I have come; in the scroll of the book it is written of
me: Psalm 40:7
Wherever I go, I go to Israel. (Rabbi Nachman of Bratslav)
January 4th, 2011 09:58 AM 33
Miggy
Miggy
Miggy is offline Regular Member
Jan 2009
Posts
791
Default
atter of faith.
No genuine born-again believer has any doubts about the existence of God. "Y
ou ask me how I know He lives. He lives within my heart!"
You trust Christ as your savior, you'll know, too.
"We have no defenses against space junk, people!" - Take me away!
*Ask me about my testimony!*
January 4th, 2011 12:13 PM 34

im4Jesus
im4Jesus
im4Jesus is offline Regular Member
Jan 2009
Posts
2,523
Default
We believe in God's existence because we have experienced his power and love
in our lives. You can't deny our experiences.
The joy of the Lord is my strength
January 4th, 2011 12:59 PM 35

scott p
Dec 2010
Posts
25
Default
It's 9am here and I need to start work. I'm going to read your comments duri
ng lunch, but it might take me a while to reply to all of them. As I said earlie
r, I'm not going to hide from any genuine questions asked of me, you'll just hav
e to put up with the difference in time zones...
January 4th, 2011 01:01 PM 36

Wally
Wally
Jul 2007
Location
Posts
7,002
Default
G-day Scott. I hope it's nice weather where you are.
Its 5pm and time to go home here. Take your time and don't forget to referen
ce the question you answer.
or Your Savior?
January 4th, 2011 01:03 PM 37

HumbleBerean
HumbleBerean
HumbleBerean is offline Jesus Saves
Sep 2009
Location
Indianapolis
Posts
511
Default
Great info Kliska.
I would like to add another problem with the analogy. Jim Jones cult has als
o been proven to be false. Chrisitanity has been proven to be true(that is, if y
ou honestly examine the evidence).
2 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version)
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctri
ne, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
January 4th, 2011 02:51 PM 38

Nightelf
Nightelf
Jul 2009
Location
Posts
8,236
Default
Quote Originally Posted by iSong6:3 View Post
Jonestown was an insular cult, Jones was a cult leader and had control over
his followers. He ordered them to commit suicide by drinking cyanide-laced kool-
aid. That's where the term *they drank the kool-aid* came from. Sadly for his fo
llowers, their deaths meant no more than that.
And not only that.
Jim Jone's followers practised this Koolaid routine constantly. When they ac
tually consumed Koolaid laced with cyanide, they just thought it was another dri
ll. By the time they realised it was the "real thing", it was too late.
Even for those last stragglers who took the poison willingly, this was a pre
tty easy way to go.
Consider Jesus' disciples, undergoing hours of torture, and never renouncing
their Savior, even unto death.... if Jesus was just a mere man, none of his Dis
ciples would have surrendered their bodies to that kind of agony. Never.
I Has BANHAMMER!!!!
ading the Gospel?
January 4th, 2011 05:07 PM 39

Steve53
Steve53
Jun 2008
Location
WNC
Posts
11,254
Default
No calling faith into question. No soapbox or proselytising. No stealth comm
ents. No hidden agendas.
Perhaps I need to PM you to run one by you, hopefully get the okay to post i
t up. Would that be preferable, Steve?
Lot's of posts in-between Scott - I hope you've read them all.
As has been explained already here and in other threads in this forum - We d
on't engage in debates here. Far too often folks come here to "correct us" when
the purpose of this forum is to explain why we believe in the God of the Bible a
nd His plan for our salvation.
When we offer reasons and explanations for why we believe as we do, it's not
an open invitation for a guest to then start trying to nit-pick those reasons w
ith supposed "factual" rebuttals. With all due respect - We've been there and do
ne that. Read this entire forum and the thousands of posts contained herein to s
ee what I mean.
Yes, we acknowledge there may an error or two in a post(s) somewhere. Howeve
r, if you dig deep enough, I think you will find most glaring errors have probab
ly been addressed in some form or fashion - we aren't perfect and make no claims
at being so. When we are aware of factual or doctrinal or Biblical errors in a
post or posts we sometimes let the error remain and address the problem later in
the thread as an educational tool.
Everyone comes to this forum with a bias. We freely admit we're biased towar
ds Christ. The sources and links we refer folks to are generally biased towards
Christ also. Our documentation and sources have stood the test of time. Elsewher
e in this forum are loads of information detailing how ancient Biblical manuscri
pts have survived to this day largely unchanged from when they were first writte
n. Amazing, considering the number of extant writings from more than just a few
hundred years ago are a mere pittance compared to the sheer volume of Biblical m
anuscripts that have survived. Jesus said -
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away
- and as you can see, His words were recorded verbatim in three of the four
Gospels.
The matter of fulfilled Biblical prophecy is the one thing that should reall
y capture a true, intellectually honest, skeptics' attention. The idea that fulf
illed prophecy can be discounted because of supposed manipulation to guarantee a
desired outcome is ludicrous when critically examined against the sheer number
of prophecies, their specificity, and the unique and singular cohesion of the Bi
ble's 66 books written by 40 different authors over a span of approximately 1500
years. That many people, over that huge a time span, simply could not have engi
neered, or could have conspired to engineer such a manuscript without Divine int
ervention. The Bible is inerrant.
Biblical "contradictions" next come under scrutiny only to be very well expl
ained once context becomes understood. The many supposed "contradictions" are re
ally much more about language/translation and semantics than any real substantia
l "contradictions" yet folks harp on the same few hot button favorites time and
time again.....
The trend in revisionist history (or no history) over the course of the last
35 years or so is alarming indeed. The truth is being assaulted daily by the li
e of week, year or decade. The old adage about repeating a lie often enough so i
t becomes the new "truth" has never been more relevant or prevalent than in thes
e last few years. The techniques propagated by the Nazis in WWII are very effect
ive indeed, and sadly, many people are just too lazy or too apathetic to critica
lly investigate what passes for "fact" these days. Discernment is sorely lacking
in far too many disciplines and the study of history is one shining example of
what happens when folks stop paying attention.
Lastly, the explosion of atheist and agnostic sites on the internet is contr
ibuting to the dissemination of flat out false anti-christian propaganda on a sc
ale that would make Paul Joseph Goebbels proud for sure. Open source "dictionari
es" such as Wikipedia are not immune to the postings either and regrettably, are
n't corrected most of the time, if at all. Here at RR we've seen every imaginabl
e atheist/agnostic "Gotcha", "Ask me...", "Well,... if,.... and,... or, but". Pl
ease forgive us for not wanting to tread the same ground again.
Ask us about Christ and the Bible. If you don't believe us, that's your prer
ogative. We are commissioned to spread the good news. You don't have to accept t
he free gift Christ offers, but you would do well to do so.

January 5th, 2011 05:24 PM 40

davidswife
Apr 2010
Location
gulf coast
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There will come a time when every knee will bow and every tongue will confes
s that Jesus Christ is Lord. I wouldn't take nothing for My Jesus. I have been c
ollege educated and traveled all over this country, served our military and rais
ed 4 kids yet no one has stolen my heart and my mind with their doctrines of dec
iet and convinced me of how to think so I would betray my own soul to be "politi
cally correct". I want to be Biblically Correct. Jesus is the end all and be all
of my life. Life is certainly not easy but He makes it bearable. He is the air
I breathe. Wish everyone could know Him that way! And yes, I would die for Him!
scott p
Dec 2010
Posts
25
Default
Quote Originally Posted by Wally View Post
If you could, please read these questions carefully and try to elaborate in
your answer. So far the answers I have received from "atheists/agnostics" have b
een rather weak, maybe you can dig deeper.
What would God have to do to convince you of His existance? What is it about
that act that would cause you to believe? Why even believe that action?
I ve been told quite forcefully in the past when I ve answered this very questio
n that I have no right to be demanding something specific, so I ll leave that up t
o God. He would know exactly what to do, it may be something that I haven t even c
onsidered, but it would be something I couldn t possibly deny.
If by chance God did a miracle in your life, would you only continue to beli
eve Him based on His performance?
If he meets the criteria I already mentioned, I can t imagine how I could stop
believing, even if I was disappointed in his performance. I see what you mean t
hough perhaps those people who say they stopped believing because for example, s
omething bad happened, most likely weren t properly convinced the first time?

The kicker is this; you can't take away the miracle. The evidence is for it.
I don t want to pre-empt something you may not even say, so I ll just ask, what
is the evidence?
This is again semantic word games. Theists believe there is a God. Atheists
say there is no God. Agnostics say you cannot know either way.
What dictionary are you using? I have two in my house, and if you consult Ox
ford and Webster as well, you ll see that they all define atheism in terms of beli
ef, rather than a positive statement about denial. Theists believe, atheists don t
. Nothing about certainty.
I can only speculate that your insistence on avoiding the term atheist repre
sents some sort of victory in that you have reduced the number of them in the wo
rld by one. But, as I said, call me agnostic if it helps.
Atheist skeptics would have us believe these Disciples of Christ would have
died for a known lie.
I would never suggest that the disciples knew or even thought it was a lie.
Plenty of people have died throughout history in support of things that turned o
ut not to be true, and I doubt that even one of them thought what they believed
was a lie.
January 5th, 2011 09:08 PM 42

scott p
Dec 2010
Posts
25
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Quote Originally Posted by davidswife View Post
What if you're wrong? Have you ever considered that? if you're wrong you run
the risk of eternal judgement. We believe hell is a place that is real and some
where you don't want to go.
If I m wrong, I guess I m going to hell.
If that s the case, do you think that I deserve to go there?
I would like to think that God is decent enough that he would value an hones
t disbelief in his existence, over a belief that was motivated by a desire for r
eward or a fear of punishment.
.........
That only leaves Steve s last post that I want to answer. I ll get to that as so
on as I can. Thanks again for all your questions...
January 5th, 2011 09:28 PM 43

pavelsmith
pavelsmith
pavelsmith is offline Jr. Member
Nov 2010
Posts
34
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Thats touching on the hate laws in America (and perhaps Canada). I just hear
d someone talking about this the other day.. Churches can speak against homosexu
ality as long as they do it in their church. The church (member) could be charge
d with a hate crime if they went out and publicly stated their beliefs. Somethin
g like that...
Waiting for Jesus is on Facebook.. Come join us!
January 6th, 2011 01:29 AM 44

Steve53
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.....If (H)e meets the criteria I already mentioned.....
You suffer from the same affliction that corrupted Satan - pride.

January 6th, 2011 01:38 AM 45

Steve53
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Most assuredly so. We all deserve hell.
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Christ came to offer Himself as the payment for our sins.
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that
is in Christ Jesus:
...........
He has provided evidence of His creation all around you. He wants you to wil
lingly come to Him as He knows that deep in the recesses of your heart, you know
, He Is.

January 6th, 2011 01:46 AM 46

Steve53
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That only leaves Steve s last post that I want to answer. I ll get to that as so
on as I can. ...
There's nothing in my post to "answer" Scott. Again, this is not a forum for
debate.
You may ask us questions about Christ if you wish. I would caution you as to
how you ask those questions. "Questions" framed as proselytizing (or otherwise
testifying for atheism) will likely be edited or deleted as a violation of the p
osting rules.
Last edited by Steve53; January 6th, 2011 at 11:27 AM.

January 6th, 2011 02:29 AM 47

Anddra
Anddra
Anddra is offline Regular Member
Oct 2007
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If he meets the criteria I already mentioned, I can t imagine how I could stop
believing, even if I was disappointed in his performance. I see what you mean t
hough perhaps those people who say they stopped believing because for example, s
omething bad happened, most likely weren t properly convinced the first time?
Although reading about the evidence can help lead someone to faith, it reall
y isn't about evidence. It requires faith. See ...
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to
salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. F
or in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is writ
ten, "The just shall live by faith."
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unr
ighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may
be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since th
e creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being underst
ood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that the
y are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him
as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolis
h hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed th
e glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and bi
rds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up
to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among th
emselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served t
he creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reas
on God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural
use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use
of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what
is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was d
ue. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave the
m over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled
with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciou
sness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperer
s, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things
, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, un
merciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice su
ch things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those
who practice them.
Romans 1:16-32 (NKJV)
Without faith, you are left to stand before God on your own merits. I think
it has already been shown that none of us are able to do that. The only standard
that a righteous holy God can use is absolute perfection. We are obviously not
anywhere close to that. So, because He loves us, He sent His son, Jesus to take
the penalty that was rightfully ours. We, by faithing on Him, are now looked upo
n as righteous.
All that is required of us is to do the work of God, as described by Jesus .
..
Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?
" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in
Him whom He sent."
John 6:28-29 (NKJV)
Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is kno
wing the difference between right and almost right. - Charles H. Spurgeon
January 6th, 2011 04:37 AM 48

Wally
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Well Scott, I think I grasp your non answer. It was my question and regetiba
lly some christian people don't take time to listen and work from there.
It sounds like you do have some notion of what you would expect a Holy God t
o be able to do. And yet so many struggle with the Loving God notion - but then
why does He allow suffering - death......
Again people are quick to judge God. They blame Him for the failures of man
and blind themselves to both man's accountibility, and God's incredible provisio
n for man's failure.
So How good can you be? Why do you think man is such a failure at being good
? Do you understand how both scripture and history dispell the notion man is bas
ically good?
But then we argue faith, I suppose you argue man IS good?
If so, why do we murder babies?
Last edited by Wally; January 6th, 2011 at 09:47 AM.
or Your Savior?
January 6th, 2011 04:53 AM 49

iSong6:3
iSong6:3
iSong6:3 is offline Standing with Israel Mod
Sep 2007
Posts
15,444
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You sound so cavalier about it, Scott. You have no idea what absolute non-Go
d is all about. This world is flooded with His blessings whether you know they'r
e from Him or not. When you are left with your wish to have an eternally God-fre
e existence...such torment has not even entered into the imagination of man, we
have no idea of such a horror. I can hardly bear the thought.
Like the Passover story - did you ever see "The Ten Commandments"? It's abou
t the blood on the lintel, everyone needed the blood or they would suffer death
inside. It's a picture of the blood of Jesus.
Yes, we all sin because we are sinners. The unrighteous will not inherit the
kingdom of God. God does not want that for you. "Say to them, ' As I live!' dec
lares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather t
hat the wicked turn from his way and live Turn back, turn back from your evil wa
ys! Why then will you die,...[Scott P.]?" Ezekiel 33:11
Yeah, well we've all had our own ideas of how a god "should" be or how such
a being should judge.
That's why it's imperative to read His Words in the Bible to see God's revel
ation of Himself to us. You'll learn there's no other issue, no debate, no other
consideration than this:
Is there blood on the lintel of your heart? Have you accepted Jesus's death
in your place?
Either you accept His sacrificlal death on your behalf or you must die in yo
ur own sins. 23 But he [Jesus] continued, You are from below; I am from above. Yo
u are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in
your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins
. John 8:23-24
Then I said, Behold, I have come; in the scroll of the book it is written of
me: Psalm 40:7
Wherever I go, I go to Israel. (Rabbi Nachman of Bratslav)
January 6th, 2011 05:32 AM 50

Kliska
Kliska
May 2007
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So you want to be forced to believe? Sorry, that's not the way God works. It
would be like you falling in love and forcing the other person to love you; tha
t would be no real love. God is looking for your trust, if He overpowers your ch
oice, then you wouldn't actually be trusting. The evidence you need is literally
all around you. Evidence ain't the problem; you are. Ask yourself if that is a
possibility. You may be young, but every human over a certain age knows the dang
er of human pride.
I had some feedback awhile ago, and the email contained a question about evi
dence. What evidence is out there that someone can read or know that would suppo
rt that idea that Christianity is it? Meaning, evidence that supports the idea tha
t Christianity is true.
First, I have to make a couple of things clear. Christianity s job, as a relig
ion, is to point to Christ. Christianity is only true because it is based on Tru
th, and Christ is Truth. Religion doesn t save you; Jesus does. So, anything and e
verything that is presented as evidence ultimately points to Christ. Anyone who
wants to understand Christians should learn of Christ, and further, He invites e
veryone to do just that. The sign we are promised is the sign of Jonah, in Chris
tian terms, it is Jesus Christ and His resurrection.
If non-believers (and even believers) would keep that fact in mind, a lot le
ss confusion would occur in my opinion. One of the things that can contribute ke
eping non-believers in a state of non-belief is their cries of hypocrisy! when it
comes to Christians. Well, sorry, Christians solid in their faith will admit we
are nothing but a bunch of sinners who slip and stumble and fall but we have a She
pherd that forgives us, and picks us again. It s the Shepherd you need to be exami
ning, not the flock. Look to Christ; He d the only human who lived a perfect life,
and who is not a hypocrite, including everyone reading this (that includes me i
n case anyone was wondering).
This same idea hold true for anyone who has either been hurt by a certain ch
urch, or another person claiming to be a believer. Unfortunately not everyone wh
o claims to be Christian is, and again, even those that are can and do slip and
fall and sin. Mere humans will disappoint, there is no doubt about it, but Chris
t never will.
So, that s issue number one; Christ. Who do you say that He is? If you are one
of those people who tries to convince themselves that Christ never even existed
, well, you have to be honest enough to really, truly look at the evidence of Hi
s existence (just as in introduction, Tektonics has an article discussing this i
dea of the Christ-myth). If you are one of those people who tries to paint Chris
t as a good and wise teacher, you have to be honest enough to admit that He didn t
leave that option without you also believing His other teachings; that He s it, and
there s something wrong with the world and all of us that only He can fix.
Second, we have the Bible. Before anyone jumps on me about circular logic and
using the Bible to prove the Bible, please read my post on Biblical Reliability.
In that post you will find other links, and also different books you can resear
ch. There are many reasons why you can trust the Bible, take some time to study
them; historical reliability, archaeological reliability, prophetic reliability,
its internally consistent, etc This is were evidence for Christ, and evidence fo
r the Bible intersect, for example; all the Messianic prophecies that are contai
ned within the Bible, and Jesus fulfillment of a substantial number, and His fut
ure fulfillment of the rest. Fulfilled prophecy in other areas is also very inte
resting and enlightening to study.
There are also personal evidences. I don t go into them very much on my site,
or on other forums because most non-believers want external evidences, or claim th
ey do at least. Evidence that can be researched by them that is more objective. Ho
wever, the transforming power of Christ, and the Holy Spirit in our lives is som
e of the dearest evidences we Christians have, and are usually happy to share wh
en asked. I know that for me, my life would look and be totally different withou
t Christ and the Holy Spirit interceding for me, guiding me, etc
Which brings me to my last point in this particular post; no amount of evide
nce in the world, from fulfilled prophecy, to archaeological and historical evid
ences will sway you if you are not willing to have your heart softened. All of c
reation screams out that there is a Creator behind it all and yet, some people don t
like to retain God in their knowledge. Looking into all of this is not time to
cop an attitude, this kind of thing requires great thought, and a willingness to
admit when one has been wrong. Discussions happen between people, and it s so muc
h easier to cling onto a set of beliefs when you are dialoguing but this type of r
esearch into the very truth of our world is something to be done soberly, and wi
th true searching. You don t constantly have to talk to another human about it, bu
t it d be nice if you d talk to Him about it, and ask Him to help believe in Him if
He s really there, ask Him for His grace; don t do it on a website, don t do it to try
to prove a point, don t do it to mock go somewhere by yourself, be honest, and simp
ly ask for help to believe in Him.
Recently I had the honor to witness an agnostic finally connect with God. She
said it wasn t any one thing anyone had said to her, but rather, she woke up one n
ight, and just knew. After that realization that there was a God, and Jesus was
Who He claimed to be, everything everyone had told her all fell into place and i
t all made sense, it all clicked; the Gospel message, all the apologetics, etc Se
ek Him diligently and honestly, you won t be disappointed.
Biblical Reliability:One question that comes up in many Apologetics discussi
ons is the reliability of the Biblical manuscripts. In this post, I am not going
to go into detail, as others have already done so. What I am going to do is giv
e an overview of why this is important, and also give resources for everyone to
utilize.
First a word about a common misunderstanding. Many times, atheists and other
non-believers will accuse Christians of circular logic. They present a straw ma
n which says, Christians always refer to the Bible as evidence of God, and they u
se the Bible as evidence for the Bible which is circular. Now, I personally haven t
read any Christian doing this; what I do see often is fundamental lack of knowl
edge on the part of the atheist/non-believer as to what the Bible actually is, a
nd why we cite it as evidence, and why it can indeed be cited as evidence.
The Bible is not a single document. It is a collection of ancient documents
into one binding; there is a distinct difference. These documents often have dif
ferent authors and are written at different periods of time; they are not one so
lid document that someone can accuse of trying to prove itself. This would be like
entering into a conversation about the formation and continuation of the United
States government. In this discussion, one person pulls out a book titled: Poli
tical Documents of the United States.
Within this single book is a collection of many US documents; The Declaratio
n of Independence, The Constitution, The Federalist Papers, The Records of the C
ontinental Congress, etc Then, the person they are dialoging with says, You can t us
e that as a reference, or as evidence when talking about the formation and conti
nuation of the US Government! Political Documents of the United States is just u
sed to prove itself, that s circular logic!
So, a basic understanding of the composition of the Bible is needed; it is a
collection of manuscripts authored by around 40 human authors (under the inspir
ation of the Holy Spirit). It s contents were written over a large span of time, a
nd in different languages, mainly Hebrew and Greek. Then these manuscripts were
collected together into one volume; The Bible. Using various historical manuscri
pts to support other historical manuscripts is not proving itself.
There is also discussion about how these particular manuscripts made it into
the collection. Many non-believers try to make this into some huge conspiracy,
while the Roman church tries to use it as proof that they are the one true churc
h, and them alone; some fundamentalist Christians act as though God handed the K
JV in it s final form to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The truth is that it was a very organ
ic and logical process, though the inclusion of some of the books were debated.
In general, certain criteria were met, and as these criteria were met, the b
ooks eventually came to be canonized formally, though many of the books were alrea
dy recognized as canon. (The criteria were things like; authorship by an apostle
or an immediate follower of an apostle (which obviously included dating), churc
h usage, etc )
Are the documents reliable? Are they accurate? Can you trust the Eyewitness
accounts in the NT? There are many good resources for these questions here are o
nly a few:
Online resource examples;Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament Reli
ability on CARM, The Textual Reliability of the New Testament from Tekton, Misce
llaneous Questions on the Text of the Old Testament from Tekton, Testimony of th
e Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf, Archaeology and the New Testament from Apologe
tics Press, Is scripture a faithful record of historical events? from Apologetics
Press, etc etc
Other resource examples; The New Testament Documents by F.F. Bruce, The Cano
n of Scripture by F.F. Bruce, Trial of the witnesses by Thomas Sherlock, General
Introduction to the Bible by Geisler and Nix, Can I trust the Bible? by D. Bock
& R. Zacharias, and also examples of general resources that touch upon Biblical
matters: The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell, The Case for
Christ by Strobel, etc etc
These resources are for everyone; believers, skeptics, anyone interested in
Biblical apologetics. What I offered here is not even a drop in the bucket of in
formation available on this topic. One of the most frustrating things in Apologe
tics can be talking to people who glean all their knowledge of the Bible from pr
oselytizing atheistic websites that have lists of points to try to bring up in a
debate. Why is it frustrating? Because the answers are readily available to all
, and are very easy to find, and also it shows, to me, that the person isn t reall
y wanting an answer, no they are trying to proselytize their own beliefs.
Take the time to study the Bible. It can be trusted and is highly reliable;
historically, prophetically, internally, archaeologically, etc The resources I ga
ve above have many other resources cited in their notes, so, keep digging and st
udying. The Bible can stand up to all scrutiny.
"Small" prophecy example: Here is a chart that they (Levitt ministries) form
ulated that touches on several main prophecies about the Messiah, and their fulf
illment found in Jesus (Yeshua), although there are many more. Notice how they c
ome out of different books, showing how the historical documents that make up th
e Bible fit together like a puzzle.
Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2 fulfilled Matthew 2:1-5
The Son of God: Psalms 2:7 fulfilled John 3:16-17
Of the tribe of Judah: Gen. 49:10 fulfilled Heb. 7:14
Born of a virgin: Isa. 7:14 fulfilled Matt. 1:18-22
A prophet like Moses: Deut. 18:15 fulfilled John 7:15-17
The King of Israel: Zech. 9:9 fulfilled John 12:12-15
Rejected: Isa. 53:3 fulfilled John 1:11
Beaten: Mic. 5:1 fulfilled Mk. 15:19
Silent: Isa. 53:7 fulfilled Matt. 27:1-2
Betrayed: Psa. 41:9 fulfilled Mk. 14:17-20
Tried and Condemned: Isa. 53:8 fulfilled Matt. 27:1-2
Crucified: Psa. 22:18 fulfilled John 19:23-24
His garments divided: Psa. 22:18 fulfilled John 19:23-24
Given vinegar and gall: Psa. 69:21 fulfilled John 19:28-29
His bones not broken: Exo. 12:46 fulfilled John 19:31-36
He is our Sacrifice: Isa. 53:5-6 fulfilled Pet. 2:24-25
And raised from death! : Psa. 16:10 fulfilled Lk. 24:1-7, 47
I like having them in order, and having the corresponding passages side by s
ide.
Quote Originally Posted by Scott
I don t want to pre-empt something you may not even say, so I ll just ask, what
is the evidence?
You've been given quite a lot of it in this thread. So much so that there is
no possible way you're read and researched it all. And your reply to my apologe
tics article on the disciples proves you haven't researched the history surround
ing Jesus, nor His crucifixion, nor His resurrection.
Theists believe, atheists don t. Nothing about certainty.
Let me make this easier for you; if someone is asked is there a God they can
say; "Yes," "No," or "I don't know/I'm not sure/I haven't decided/still searchi
ng/we can't be certain, etc..." Each one gets a label.
I can only speculate that your insistence on avoiding the term atheist repre
sents some sort of victory in that you have reduced the number of them in the wo
rld by one. But, as I said, call me agnostic if it helps.
You don't seem to grasp our beliefs...why in the world would I feel victorio
us that there is one less atheist and one more agnostic in the world? Neither po
sition is correct, and a miss is as good as a mile. I teach logic, amongst other
subjects, at the college level. One of the very first things I teach my class i
s that it is important to carefully define terms.
I would never suggest that the disciples knew or even thought it was a lie.
Plenty of people have died throughout history in support of things that turned o
ut not to be true, and I doubt that even one of them thought what they believed
was a lie.
That is precisely what you are suggesting, even if it is unintentional. Thin
k about this for a long while. No need to answer on the board; Why was there an
empty grave? Why are there no accounts of the authorities simply producing Jesus
' body to squash these ridiculous stories of His resurrection? How is it possibl
e for the disciples to preach an empty tomb in the very town where Jesus was cru
cified and buried (don't forget it was a public execution and burial), and have
their story accepted by thousands? Here's a hint; the body wasn't there because
He arose. Any other story made up by man involves the disciples lying; that does
n't fit the facts.
Honestly seek God, and do more research.
January 6th, 2011 08:03 AM 51

HeIsEnough
HeIsEnough
Apr 2007
Posts
9,915
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Do you understand the wisdom in it though?
Look at it this way, Jesus was accessible. Yet, that very same Christ who wa
lked this earth, frightened tens of thousands who could not bear to hear or see
His power for long, they told Moses, 'you go talk to Him'
Lots of 'what if's' serve little purpose, but one is insightful to understan
ding God, what if God is. If you know science, then you see just a little of God
's power, just a little of His intelligence. He thinks, and it will be, He speak
s, and it creates. It would actually serve to swamp your whole intellect to real
ize just who God is, even in your or my limited understanding. Even God's own be
loved, ones who God Himself has highly esteemed, fall utterly prostate and mute
when they get into His presence. What chance does a wicked man have? There is a
very healthy fear of God that should seem obvious to any rational man who thinks
about it a little bit.
True love would say that anything that is not of love, should not be a part
of love. When God sets up His kingdom, a kingdom ruled by love, those things not
of love will be cast off. If that angers you, then you only fight against love,
which doesn't work, rationally or emotionally. God gives men the solution to th
is, it is to know Christ, and it lives out in loving God with all you mind, with
all your heart, and with all your strength.
___________
___________
God
___________
Philippians 4:8
January 6th, 2011 11:37 AM 52

SaintTexas
SaintTexas
SaintTexas is offline RIP Bleu
May 2009
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Hi Scott. Welcome.
No, of course you cannot really fit in here, not as a non-believer, but that
is what is so great about you coming in anyway. I don't know what is motivating
you, but I know that nothing is ever by accident, so it's a pleasure to have th
e opportunity to discuss anything about the Christian faith with you. I pray tha
t the Lord will find good soil in your heart and not stone.
We had a guest speaker at our church this past Sunday. His name was Samy Tan
agho, and he spoke with us about reaching Muslims specifically. One thing that h
e said that is on my mind regarding you specifically is that he said most Muslim
s have never had their questions about Jesus answered. No one took the time. I h
ope that if that is true of you as well that the Lord grants us all patience and
the answers you are seeking.
Second, can I invite you to listen to my pastor online? We are studying the
book of Pslams on Wednesday evenings and we studied Psalms 95-98 last night. The
y are known as the royal Pslams (to Psalm 100, actually--you can tune in next we
ek to finish them up). A few of the questions that you have asked these Psalms c
over. The book of Romans also addresses some as well. If you don't own a Bible,
they are online. I highly recommend the Blue Letter Bible, also accessible on my
church website. I'll put the link in below for last night. If you click on the
homepage, there is a link for the BLB there. It's a great reference tool.
There was also another gentleman who came and spoke with us as well about a
month ago named Charlie Campbell, and his ministry is called Alwaysbeready.com,
and if you go into the sermons page, there are links to him speaking as well. He
addresses some other things as well that you have asked about and with a lot of
depth and citation of information.
I grew up in a Christian home, so I cannot remember a time that I ever didn'
t believe that there was a God, the God of the Bible, or believe in Jesus. I cam
e into a personal, saving relationship with Him as an adult and it was because o
f a personal experience with Him and knowing Him myself. He loves you. He has le
ft you lots of evidence in the heavens, in creation, and in His revealed word, b
eyond any personal experience with Him as well. He isn't hiding from you. And He
sent His Son to die for you because He loves you.
There is such an overwhelming amount of support just for the authenticity of
the Bible that it's really difficult for me to read some of your objections and
not point you to a guy like Charlie Campbell's ministry who has already done th
e minute detailing for me.
Am I biased? Well, in that I love the Lord and know Him, yes. But as far as
anyone I would point you to, absolutely not. There are lots of false teachers ou
t there--no lack of them at all. But there are some sound ones too---our moderat
ors here are some of the best I have ever been privileged to be in fellowship wi
th--so you are in a good place if you have a sincere heart and really want some
answers.
Here is a link to that sermon, which is just under an hour:
http://www.calvarywesthouston.org/se...4-psalms-95-98
NOT because I am anything but a sinner in need of a Saviour, but because He
is the "I AM" that I am saved because of the blood He shed for my sins.
January 6th, 2011 12:56 PM 53

scott p
Dec 2010
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Wow, I never imagined I would get so many responses to my comments.
Looks like I have some more reading to do at lunch, but this afternoon I'm o
ff on holidays for a few weeks, so my contributions may be a bit sporadic. Pleas
e know that I appreciate your replies and I will honestly try to get to them whe
n I have time.
January 6th, 2011 01:39 PM 54

Wally
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Being that there are other more hedonistic activities to soak up one's holid
ay, I could not entirely fault a worldly person for reluctance to sacrifice such
time for deeper theological issues, but perhaps you could carve out an hour or
two during your hiatus.
That said, maybe during your fun, you might actually look for the flavor of
live, where is it, what makes it the most satisfying, what gives a lasting meani
ng.
We like fun things too. And in Christ we find the pleasures of life are foun
d in God's children. Being there when they need us. Ministering when they suffer
. Sharing our burdens with one another even if only in prayer.
And what do we get that is different?
We get to look into our Father's eyes, and see Him smile.
It's a relationship that is well worth the humiltiy, the honesty, the willin
gness to expose ourselves to the Creator of all things. But maybe you don't want
it today.
I don't paint a fire and brimstone torrent for some the unsaved. I paint wit
h grey. A dead lifeless existance. That is what you have without God. Die withou
t Christ... and it just gets more grey. Burning cold, numbing heat, dead silence
or a din of noise. All that would give meaning - rejected, scorned, ignored.
Hell is a place of punishment. Punishment for unbelief. A place apart form G
od.
Eternity is a long time to be wrong. I pray you can take to heart these post
s we've made. We really care. We really believe. The truth is there if you look.
God made it child-like so that men can't mess it up even though we make a good
effort at trying.
ing for You Scott.
Last edited by Wally; January 7th, 2011 at 04:29 AM.
or Your Savior?
January 7th, 2011 01:11 PM 55

scott p
Dec 2010
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Being that there are other more hedonistic activities to soak up one's holid
ay, I could not entirely fault a worldly person for reluctance to sacrifice such
time for deeper theological issues,
That's a bit of a presumption, isn't it?
January 7th, 2011 01:47 PM 56

TimothyK
TimothyK
TimothyK is offline Regular Member
Sep 2008
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Texas
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That's a bit of a presumption, isn't it?
Don't be that way. There was no spite or malice meant by that comment. He's
just saying he wouldn't fault you for wanting to do something other then read th
e many texts and information given and provided for you. Why so defensive? If yo
u will read it, all the better my friend!
You've been given a generous mountain of information to sort through if you'
re sincere in your efforts to find faith. It's all there for you to read and we
have plenty more to provide for your honest questions. None of us would reasonab
ly expect you to be able to get through all of it over your Christmas break, unl
ess you casually skimmed it or something. That wouldn't be honest and in bad fai
th.
No one likes to waste their time.
January 7th, 2011 02:59 PM 57

ZAGS
ZAGS
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Well Scott, I think I grasp your non answer. It was my question and regetiba
lly some christian people don't take time to listen and work from there.
It sounds like you do have some notion of what you would expect a Holy God t
o be able to do. And yet so many struggle with the Loving God notion - but then
why does He allow suffering - death......
So How good can you be? Why do you think man is such a failure at being good
? Do you understand how both scripture and history dispell the notion man is bas
ically good?
Exactally.
Genesis 3:1-6 (New King James Version)
Genesis 3
The Temptation and Fall of Man
1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LOR
D God had made. And he said to the woman, Has God indeed said, You shall not eat o
f every tree of the garden ?
2 And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat the fruit of the trees of the
garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God
has said, You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, You will not surely die. 5 For God know
s that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like G
od, knowing good and evil.
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasan
t to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and
ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
We humans have a tendancy to blame God for our fallen condition, when it all
goes back to the fall in the garden. Eve and Adam both had been warned by God n
ot to eat of the forbidden fruit, but they chose to disobey. Satan (who wants to
be God but never can be) lied and convinced Eve nothing bad would happen. While
God knew what was going to happen, He allowed it because He had a plan. His pla
n was to give us a choice to love Him of our own accord or reject Him. God doesn
't want a bunch of mindless people running around loving Him. He wants us to cho
ose to love Him, because He first loved us. He give us a choice, because he know
s when you choose to love someone, it gives that love life, fire, and passion.
But because God is so loving, He will not force us to love Him.
Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who ga
ve Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, ac
cording to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever
. Amen. Galatians 1:3-5
Nothing is politically right which is morally wrong. - Abraham Lincoln

http://www.aretheyreadyforthis.com
January 7th, 2011 05:40 PM 58
LightOfMyLife
LightOfMyLife
LightOfMyLife is offline Blessed Hope
Jun 2009
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Scott, Welcome to RR & I that we can help answer your questions about a rela
tionship with Jesus. There is a thread in the prayer requests for you & I don't
want you to miss this so please read this link. http://www.jesuschristis.com/kno
w_jesus.html
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no ma
n cometh unto the Father, but by me. Love RR Family, Janice
January 8th, 2011 01:37 PM 59

scott p
Dec 2010
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Quote Originally Posted by TimothyK View Post
Don't be that way. There was no spite or malice meant by that comment. He's
just saying he wouldn't fault you for wanting to do something other then read th
e many texts and information given and provided for you.
Yes, you're right, I misunderstood what was said. Sorry about that, Wally.
January 10th, 2011 01:31 AM 60

scott p
Dec 2010
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Do you think I deserve to go to hell?
Most assuredly so. We all deserve hell.
Yes, we all sin because we are sinners.
If we all deserve hell, the only thing separating me from you is a belief in
God. That was the second part of my question - if I'm no worse a person than yo
u, and I'm honest in my disbelief, should that merit eternal punishment?
scott p
Dec 2010
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I don't believe in God, so I don't blame him for anything.
Yes, I think we're generally good. There will always be those who don't play
by the rules, and they should be dealt with accordingly.
"We" don't murder babies, or children, or adults. "We" deal with the people
who do.
You sound so cavalier about it, Scott.
I don't think of it as cavalier. I'm just confident enough that it's not goi
ng to happen that I don't worry myself about it.
January 10th, 2011 01:51 AM 62

HeIsEnough
HeIsEnough
Apr 2007
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if I'm no worse a person than you, and I'm honest in my disbelief, should th
at merit eternal punishment?
If you refuse to turn to the Lord and thank Him for all that He has given yo
u, to be grateful for what He has done for you, then your future is to have no f
ellowship with the Lord.
You've made it clear you want it that way, you desire it to be that way, and
God offers for you to have life, even if you don't want it, so what is your com
plaint again?
___________
___________
God
___________
Philippians 4:8
January 10th, 2011 02:22 AM 63

scott p
Dec 2010
Posts
25
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So you want to be forced to believe? Sorry, that's not the way God works.
Being forced and being convinced are two different things. I made it clear t
hat I will leave it to God to decide what it takes to convince me.
Let me give you an example... It may have taken more to convince you than th
e person on your left - do you think you didn't deserve the proof that you got?
The person on your right may take even more convincing than you did - would you
deny them the level of proof that they received, and say that they should have b
een satisfied with what you received?
You may be young, but every human over a certain age knows the danger of hum
an pride.
I'm curious - do you want to put a number on either of those?
Quote Originally Posted by ZAGS View Post
But because God is so loving, He will not force us to love Him.
Isn't he kind of forcing me, by only giving me one extreme alternative?
If your children said they didn't love you, would you stop loving them? Of c
ourse not. But would you punish them?
January 10th, 2011 02:27 AM 64

scott p
Dec 2010
Posts
25
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Quote Originally Posted by HeIsEnough View Post
If you refuse to turn to the Lord and thank Him for all that He has given yo
u, to be grateful for what He has done for you, then your future is to have no f
ellowship with the Lord.
You've made it clear you want it that way, you desire it to be that way, and
God offers for you to have life, even if you don't want it, so what is your com
plaint again?
I think you've written this while I was replying to ZAGS' post, so I'll para
phrase that - if your children were ungrateful for what you've done for them, to
what extent would you punish them?
I'm perfectly happy to be nothing, nowhere when I die. Why can't I have that
?
January 10th, 2011 02:46 AM 65

HeIsEnough
HeIsEnough
Apr 2007
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I think you've written this while I was replying to ZAGS' post, so I'll para
phrase that - if your children were ungrateful for what you've done for them, to
what extent would you punish them?
My children don't deny that I exist, nor do they act as if I'm not there, so
I can still talk to them and tell them what the consequences are for their own
actions.
The consequences for your actions are clear to you, die in your own sin, bad
things happen.
I'm perfectly happy to be nothing, nowhere when I die. Why can't I have that
?
If you can conceive of "nothing", then you can have it. Try conceiving the u
niverse is actually nothing, if you can, then you'll have what you want. We all
desire to sit and want all kinds of things, then we grow up.
___________
___________
God
___________
Philippians 4:8
January 10th, 2011 04:16 AM 66

Wally
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Ezekiel 7:26-27 (New King James Version)
26 Disaster will come upon disaster,
And rumor will be upon rumor.
Then they will seek a vision from a prophet;
But the law will perish from the priest,
And counsel from the elders.
27 The king will mourn,
The prince will be clothed with desolation,
And the hands of the common people will tremble.
I will do to them according to their way,
And according to what they deserve I will judge them;
Then they shall know that I am the LORD!
Job 31:27-29 (New King James Version)

27 So that my heart has been secretly enticed,
And my mouth has kissed my hand;
28 This also would be an iniquity deserving of judgment,
For I would have denied God who is above.
29 If I have rejoiced at the destruction of him who hated me,
Or lifted myself up when evil found him
Romans 1:28-32 (New King James Version)

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave
them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being
filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, ma
liciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whi
sperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of ev
il things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unf
orgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those
who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also a
pprove of those who practice them.
Scripture shows that unbelief is to be punished.

I guess your question is: Why is denying God such a terrible crime? Yes?
He Created us and gave us life. He has the right to expect fruit from His la
bors.
But in a fallen state is is now impossible.
So He took upon Himself the solution. His own suffering and death. Innocent.
Guiltless. Perfect. We nailed Him to the cross because we wouldn't believe Who
He Is.
Many still refuse to believe. Eternal separation. What would you expect?
If I understood you correctly, you claim exemption, because of indifference.
If I don't believe there is a God, how can I offend Him?
But the Word testifies, You have no such excuse for unbelief.
So again you charge God with injustice - You Mandate I believe or be thrown
into eternal torment.
So why do you still choose unbelief if in fact that is the case? See, even f
acing the consequence of sin, you still have an ability to refuse. No one has tw
isted you arm.
But God does reach out in compassion, if you are sincere. If you really want
to know Him. If you really want peace. If you really want meaning to life. You
can come to Him and ask Him to open your eyes, Soften your heart, Reveal Himself
to you.
For the unbeliever, the pleasures of life may be all they will experience. F
rom a pragmatic view, it is difficult to dissuade some that there is so much mor
e to this life.
But then, when you see people murdered for simple faith, for loving their ne
ighbor, for holding fast to Jesus - hated without a cause....
It is a testimony that there are two masters out there ruling. We will serve
one of them. But we can choose which one.
or Your Savior?
January 10th, 2011 04:51 AM 67

Steve53
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...and I'm honest in my disbelief, should that merit eternal punishment?
Your standard. Not God's. Your pride. Not His.
There will always be those who don't play by the rules, and they should be d
ealt with accordingly.
The rules have been explained to you. You are without excuse.
I don't think of it as cavalier. I'm just confident enough that it's not goi
ng to happen that I don't worry myself about it.
That's foolish pride talking. Right now death may seem far away. I imagine t
hat if certain death approaches slowly and you have time to muse on these things
, you will feel differently indeed. I hope you have the time to reconsider. Tomo
rrow is promised to no one.
Philippians 1:21
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Christians look forward to the next life. You only think you look forward to
the next because you think you believe there is no next life. There is a next l
ife and there is an eternal damnation. You do have a choice. You make that choic
e freely. Choose wisely.
een satisfied with what you received? I'm curious - do you want to put a number
on either of those?
The clay pot dares to call the potter irrelevant? More pride talking. Can yo
u see that? The evidence for Creation and a Creator are all around you. As a pro
fessed atheist, you therefore must adhere to some sort of evolutionary theory -
a theory that's constantly changing to suit the latest "discovery" of the moment
. The statistical probabilities for the evolution view don't hold up. The stats
for fulfilled prophecy do. You are choosing to be willfully ignorant of that whi
ch surrounds you.
The choice between life and death is yours - yes. You will choose your etern
al destination.
I taught my children fire is hot because I love them. Neither has ever been
badly burned and neither has ever willingly and deliberately burned themselves.

January 10th, 2011 05:52 AM 68
Kliska
Kliska
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een satisfied with what you received?
The Lord spoke in parables while He walked the earth. If the God of all Crea
tion, the very Creator Himself set out to "convince" you...you'd be convinced wi
th no room for choice. That is why His rules that He has set up operates on fait
h. Faith is trusting. God has given each human enough evidence to come to faith
in Him; even you, even now. You are choosing not to believe in Him. We've given
a lot of evidence in this thread I hope you've read it and marked things for fur
ther study, and the evidence of creation is all around you; it is in your DNA, i
t is in the properties of the elements, it is in the sun, and the stars and the
planets, it is in your being and your capacity for morality and love and hate. Y
ou have your evidence and you are making your choice.
I'm curious - do you want to put a number on either of those?
Why? The number will be different for age of accountability, but even the yo
ung recognize pride and its problems, even if they can't philosophize about it.
You personally may be young, you may not be, but it is obvious from your posts t
hat you can mentally grasp what we are getting at (which doesn't really have to
do with age past a point). It isn't an intellectual problem, that leaves us to c
onclude that it is something else.
All we advise is that you humble yourself, consider the possibilities, ask G
od for help, study His word. What questions about Jesus or His word do you have
for us as you try to research this stuff?
January 10th, 2011 08:29 AM 69

SaintTexas
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One of my favorite passages of Scripture is Acts 17:26-28 (NKJV):
26 And He has made from one blood[a] every nation of men to dwell on all the
face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundari
es of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that th
ey might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 2
8 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets
have said, For we are also His offspring.
And in Ecclesasties 3:11, Solomon writes that the Lord has set eternity into
the hearts of men. It is natural for man to desire eternal life and to look for
the Lord.
And in answer to both of these verses, there is only one way, one name, Jesu
s, to be saved. There is so much evidence to support the Bible, both OT and NT,
as a credible source that it is actually a bit ridiculous not to check that info
rmation out if you are unsure about the validity of the Bible. I would encourage
you to check out fulfilled prophesy in particular that has plenty of support fr
om outside the Bible. I already gave you a site to use to help with that where d
etailed information and support has already been gathered, but even on the RR ho
mepage, you can look up so much of this.
I received an email this morning detailing some really bizarre things that a
re going on right now with the flag that folks should be getting right with the
Lord. My friend, I pray for you. Seeking the Lord must be done with a heart of r
epentance and reverence for you to really know who you are---His creation, trace
able all the way back to Adam, and a sinner like the rest of us (there is nothin
g but level ground at the cross, only Jesus is high and lifted up)---and who He
is---Creator of all. No matter what the obvious signs are or the not so obvious
signs of His return, I encourage you to seek the answers you have with a humble
spirit and without pride.
January 10th, 2011 08:40 AM 70

OnceWasLost
OnceWasLost
OnceWasLost is offline Fluffy OWL Mod

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False argument, you are making Him the focus of people's bad choices. As for
you, He will love you until your final breath. Should you continue, and not rec
iprocate, what option is left to Him? You are eternal, as is every human soul, s
o that eternity is spent somewhere.
The punishment is separation, which you clearly prefer, so why are you pinni
ng this on Him? .
It's odd that when He gives you what you desired all along, you gripe (or ho
wever you care to describe it) that He made you do something. I have never under
stood this line of thinking, and/or logic from atheists.
There is One King, and He is not this guy.
January 10th, 2011 09:43 AM 71

Wally
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Perhaps you hold to the notion of the foolish commander (No, it didn't origi
nate in Starship Troopers) who shouted to his troops:
"No one wants to live forever."
Words of an idiot. Of course we want to live forever. Not suffering from dis
ease, not impoverished, but certianly with friends, family, in a better place...
in peace.
Or is it only the poets and artists who dare such thoughts?
Why search for the fountain of youth?
Ah yes, leave it to man. I don't like God's way, I'll find my own.
It always cricles back to pride.
But then we argue faith.... you believe, I believe.
We do tend to listen to those with experience though.
So why not the One who has been there - tasted death and returned. Showed Hi
mself to countless individuals. A testimony that has continued to this day.
Sadly, I expect, even after the Rapture, even in the midst of people contemp
lating the notion - those Christians were right, they'll still argue with God.
It's Your fault, you made me not choose You. You kept me from seeking You. Y
ou didn't do what I wanted You to do.
Blaming God. An eternally fatal mistake.
It doesn't have to be so.
or Your Savior?
January 10th, 2011 01:27 PM 72

scott p
Dec 2010
Posts
25
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I'll say it again... wow, lots of things to consider there.
Several are aimed at my response to the "what would it take?" question. To h
elp me put it in perspective, can you each tell me what it was that convinced yo
u? Try to narrow it down, if possible, to that one specific thing that "pushed y
ou over the edge". Knowing that may help me to explain my position.
January 10th, 2011 01:56 PM 73

Steve53
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Jun 2008
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Scott - With all do respect - We don't need to help you explain your positio
n. We get it quite well.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto
us which are saved it is the power of God.
Your problem is plain, pure and simple, foolish pride. A little dose of humi
lity would go a long way towards helping you clearly see the things of which we
speak. Foolishness leads to great folly and the Bible teaches us many things abo
ut foolishness.
Proverbs 19:3
The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against th
e LORD.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they
are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually
discerned.
1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He
taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
If you can humble yourself long enough to honestly and sincerely, within you
r heart, seek God, He will reveal Himself to you beyond just the wonder of His c
reation.

January 10th, 2011 02:34 PM 74

Wally
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You know, I would like to describe how God worked things in my life until I
finally asked Him for help. It's a neat testimony and maybe somewhere amongst my
posts is a bulk of it, but you don't need it.
You don't even think you need help. I'm sure some here doubt you have any go
al here but to amuse yourself. Not to be mean, it is just the program most athei
sts follow.
Perhaps I can challenge you with this:
Be Brave. Life events are orchestrated for our good. Even the tradgedies. Pe
rhaps in your future God will shower you with blessings to convince you of His l
ove. More than likely events will come designed to remove the facade of self-pri
de we hide behind so that we can finally see ourselves for who we really are. Pe
rhaps when that moment arrives, you will remember. We warn you because we care.
We tell you truth you need to hear so that perhaps one day,
you'll muster up the courage and ask : Jesus, Help My Unbelief.
He is waiting for you. I pray you are ready soon.
or Your Savior?
January 10th, 2011 04:30 PM 75

Kliska
Kliska
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I've already listed some of the facts that helped me, but also there are inn
umerable subjective happenings in my life that also added to it. I live by faith
, and trust God because of all the evidence listed. The tomb is empty. All creat
ion testifies. God is active in my life and it is a relationship, not a religion
. Logic itself testifies of God. Life itself testifies of God. Morality, history
, prophecy, scripture, etc... It's not one thing...it's everything in a way. God
's grace is a wonderful thing!
Call on Him, read His word.
January 10th, 2011 07:09 PM 76

davidswife
Apr 2010
Location
gulf coast
Posts
405
Lightbulb What convinced me
I had a NDE and very nearly died as an 8 year old child, long before I'd eve
r heard of any such thing. I was in a swimming pool. The pool was full of kids s
plashing all over the place and I wasn't noticed right off. I had already asked
Jesus to come into my heart and young and innocent as I was, I was sincere. I kn
ow what happened during that time before a strong lifeguard pulled me to safety.
And that's why Heaven is so real to me. Nothing anyone could say could convince
me that God and Heaven was "not" real. And I am so looking forward to it! I am
a grown woman now who is a nurse and I've listened while patients told me of sim
ilar experiences. For me it was a good one. I pray for you Scott that the good L
ord will soften your heart so someday you can know this too.
January 11th, 2011 06:58 AM 77

OnceWasLost
OnceWasLost
Apr 2007
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I ran out of objections and reasons to reject Him. People like those on RR a
nswered all of them and I had to come to grips with the reality that God is, and
that I will see Him face to face some day. I knew I was not prepared for such a
n encounter.
Philosophy and science could not begin to answer all that needed answering.
The atheist who believes in the improbable notion of spontaneous generation, and
subsequent evolutionary process needed for us to be here, uses faith every bit
as much the creationist, who believes God made all.
I suppose I simply admitted it and looked into which side had the better exp
lanation for all things.
January 11th, 2011 07:10 AM 78

SaintTexas
SaintTexas
May 2009
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Houston, TX
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Scott, the Lord and His Word transcend all people, situations, conditions, y
et He meets each one of us individually as well. I will answer to give you somet
hing to consider. If the Lord wants to use it, that is up to Him. I don't rememb
er if I ever wrote my testimony here on the site or not.
I never had an issue of believing there was a God or that Jesus was the Son
of God or even that He came and died for the sins of all. What I had trouble wit
h was repentance, seeing myself for who I was---spiritually poor, in need of the
Lord Jesus, forgiveness and His payment for my own sins, help living my life.
His fingerprints were all over my life in the past. I could see numerous tim
es and situations where I was offered the Gospel message and an opportunity to a
ccept what He was offering me, and I said no. A pastor's daughter was my best fr
iend from age 8 to 12 and I can remember 2 different occassions where I felt the
Lord's presence and heard Him knocking on the door of my heart. In college, I w
as in a church once when this happened as well, and I said no. In my mid-20's, a
gain, but I heard the prosperity gospel that did involve Jesus but did not ask f
or my repentance, and I accepted His blessing but did not enter through His bloo
d. I did not ask to be forgiven of my sins. I was like that for a decade, still
lost and wandering, living for myself and a life that reflected nothing but self
ishness in every area and riddled with all kinds of sin. Scott, there are just t
hings that the Lord builds into the conscience, even when we don't know the 10 C
ommandments, that we should not be doing, and we do know what they are. It's a l
ie to say that we do not know. I could not have cared less about Jesus or living
a life worthy of His death on the cross to buy me back and secure my forgivenes
s.
A few years ago, the Lord had moved us physically all over the country, and
I found myself in a pit spiritually. My selfishness had caught up to me. I felt
like I was drowning and I was at a point where I could not see any way out on my
own. I was helpless to stop myself or do anything to help myself. I wanted to k
ill myself, but I am a mother---of two then, four today---and I could not imagin
e myself taking my own life and what that would do to them. I was laying on the
floor of my closet in the dark crying and my husband took my kids to my friend K
elli's house and left them there with her son and husband and brought her back w
ith him to me to help and part of that was to cause repentance to the Lord.
Kelli, by the way, was an atheist for many years and a born-again believer w
hen I met her. She's pretty neat--total brainiac (degrees in astrophysics or som
ething) but a Texan through and through, so you would never know unless you want
ed to talk with her about alternate dimesional theory or whatever, and the week
we met, she found a lump in her breast. Chemo just stopped working recently. She
is a very special friend of mine that the Lord placed in my life at a time when
being my friend really had no attraction on the surface for either of us, but w
e had both just moved to where we were. That is how the Lord worked because that
night and my marriage and my family and my life in general changed dramatically
because of one Christian friend He placed into my life 18 months prior who love
d me unconditionally, and I was totally unloveable. A wretch in every way.
So the Lord began to deal with me that night. A bit later that evening, my h
usband and I were alone in our bedroom talking and Kelli had gone back home and
my kids spent the night there, and my husband told me that all he wanted from me
was for me to put my wedding ring back on and be his wife. I felt the Lord's ph
ysical presence with us, and I felt an assurance from Him that we would be in Hi
s hands, that I would be in His hands. I went and got my wedding ring, and my hu
sband put it back on my finger and committed 100% to the Lord and my husband and
my life. I walked with Him awhile longer before I understood repentance and who
I was and who He was and what He was offering me. Sadly, no church told me abou
t any of this. We were in church, but they never talked about repenting of my si
ns and being spiritually born-again, but I had such a profound experience that n
ight that I had no doubts after that night that the Lord was with me.
I started reading my Bible on my own and praying more, and I met Him in His
Word and He showed me that was what was missing. There were other times in praye
r and when asking for His help, that I knew He helped me or put me into certain
scriptural passages to help me know His heart. They were doing a spontaneous bap
tism at our old church one Sunday, and I knew that I wanted to do it. While I wa
s standing in line, I prayed the sinner's prayer---or my version anyway---that I
knew that I was a sinner and that I did not want to walk one more step or live
one more day of my life without Him and that I was totally His. That was Novembe
r 11, 2007. The night I wanted to kill myself was February 21-22, 2004.
The Lord saved me in every way. My life is His to do whatever He wants with
it. I have a healed marriage, a born-again husband and two older born-again chil
dren, and two more beautiful children today who will grow up knowing the Lord. I
can look back and see how much He loves me and how He was willing to relentless
ly pursue me under any circumstances, through my sinfulness, undeserving of Him,
until death or I came to the end of myself. Lucky for me, I came to the end of
myself, and there, I found Him waiting for me, willing to help me back up, willi
ng to forgive me, equip me to live a life for Him and to provide for me in every
way that I might be able to confess Him to anyone willing to listen...or read.
And He is like that with each and every person, including you. If you will l
ook back on your life today and be willing to look with humility, you will see H
im all over your life and that He has been there waiting for you to ask Him to c
ome in. But He is a gentleman. He waits for our invitation--an act of our free w
ill and a willingness to give Him what He is do---our life back to Him. He is mo
re than worthy and deserving of that honor and that level of trust. You cannot l
ose with Jesus, and your life will not just never be the same, but radically ble
ssed from your relationship with Him.
January 11th, 2011 07:51 AM 79

Hootmon
Hootmon
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Quote Originally Posted by OnceWasLost View Post
I ran out of objections and reasons to reject Him.
That's a good summary for me too.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
--Albert Einstein
The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring
the work of His hands.
Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge.
(Psa 19:1b-2)
January 11th, 2011 02:13 PM 80

Steve53
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One must remember that when it comes to God, there are no secrets. None at a
ll.
Coming to grips with my own depravity and realizing I could not stand before
a righteous and holy God on my own brought me to my knees.

Kliska
Kliska
May 2007
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Coming to grips with my own depravity and realizing I could not stand before
a righteous and holy God on my own brought me to my knees.
...Man...when you come face to face with that part of yourself that is in da
rkness...it just...makes you hit the ground and call out. We need the Light so v
ery bad. It isn't a matter of self esteem, it isn't a matter of false humility..
.it is the utter realization that we can't even begin to know righteousness. The
n comes the realization that we can know it, if it is given to us, if it is show
n to us, if we are lead to it...Jesus is Righteousness and He gave His life for
us...man...words fail. Thank you for the reminder Steve!!
Our God is Good, and is Mighty to save! He gave it all for us, a free gift o
f salvation and Light, and eternal life with a God that loves us beyond our know
ing...wow
January 11th, 2011 05:50 PM 82

HeIsEnough
HeIsEnough
Apr 2007
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Science had and has no answers to my questions. The Lord had my answers, amo
ng many other things.
___________
___________
God
___________
Philippians 4:8
February 10th, 2011 10:57 PM 83

scott p
Dec 2010
Posts
25
Default
If you can conceive of "nothing", then you can have it. Try conceiving the u
niverse is actually nothing, if you can, then you'll have what you want. We all
desire to sit and want all kinds of things, then we grow up.
What memories do you have of your existence before you were born? That s the no
thing that I expect when I die. Is that so hard to conceive of?
So again you charge God with injustice - You Mandate I believe or be thrown
into eternal torment.
So why do you still choose unbelief if in fact that is the case? See, even f
acing the consequence of sin, you still have an ability to refuse. No one has tw
isted you arm.
It s possible that the only difference between you and I, the only sin of cons
equence, is that of non-belief. That sin has no effect on the way I treat my famil
y, my friends, or anyone I meet. For a genuine, considered, honest, long thought
out decision a decision that affects only one supernatural being and nobody els
e - I am to be thrown into eternal torment.
February 10th, 2011 10:58 PM 84

scott p
Dec 2010
Posts
25
Default Back after a break
Well, here I am, fresh from my holidays and ready to step back into the ring
. To refresh your memories, I d asked about your own reasons for your belief in Go
d. Thanks to everyone for replying.
There are certainly a lot of different experiences that have led you to wher
e you are today some as a result of study and reasoning, some from personal expe
rience, some from pure faith.
I see though, that none of you were struck blind, or visited by Jesus Christ
in the flesh. Would you deny the apostles Paul and Thomas the evidence they wer
e afforded? If I had come here as a card-carrying born-again Christian, and told
you that I had given myself to Jesus after being visited by Saint Peter playing
the bagpipes, backed by a chorus of angels, you d have been shouting how wonderfu
l it was that God had chosen such a spectacular and undeniable way to show himse
lf to me. You wouldn t tell me I should have been content with the trees and the s
tars and the time my grandma was ill but she got better.
I m not asking for bagpipes and angels, just whatever God knows will convince
me. When I see it happen, I ll have no choice but to believe. You have my word on
that.
February 10th, 2011 11:33 PM 85

upwardbound
upwardbound is offline New Member
Mar 2010
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There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, Thy will
be done, and
those to whom God says, in the end, Thy will be done.
C. S. Lewis
February 10th, 2011 11:46 PM 86

Mitsy
Mitsy
Apr 2007
Posts
3,145
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Scot p
Most of the Believers who received Jesus (in one day there where 3,000 ) cam
e to know Christ did so by hearing the Gospel.
AC 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the nam
e of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gif
t of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all wh
o are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
AC 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Sav
e yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41 Those who accepted his message we
re baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Not all who come to Jesus do so because they had Jesus or an Angel appear to
them. Technically Thomas was already a disciple and follower of Jesus Christ (a
lthough a doubting one) when Jesus appeared to him after he was ressurrected.
The good thing is you don't need many signs and wonders to repent and believ
e in the Son of God like the 3,000 most do so after hearing the Good News or the
Gospel.
The Bible promises that 'you will find Him when you Seek Him with all your h
eart' (Duet 4:29). So no amount of bagpipe playing Angels will convince you of t
he Lord if you are not Seeking with all your heart.
You are like the Rich man who asked Jesus to send Lazarus back to his family
so they would turn from their sins and be saved.
LK 16:14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at
Jesus. 15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes
of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestabl
e in God's sight.
LK 16:16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that ti
me, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forci
ng his way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for t
he least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
LK 16:18 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adu
ltery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
LK 16:19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and
lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, cover
ed with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even th
e dogs came and licked his sores.
LK 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to A
braham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was i
n torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 S
o he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the
tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fi
re.'
LK 16:25 "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you rece
ived your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforte
d here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great
chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor
can anyone cross over from there to us.'
LK 16:27 "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's
house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not als
o come to this place of torment.'
LK 16:29 "Abraham replied, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them liste
n to them.'
LK 16:30 " `No, father Abraham,' he said, `but if someone from the dead goes
to them, they will repent.'
LK 16:31 "He said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets,
they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Even if you saw someone raised from the dead will you repent and believe?
Jesus was raised from the dead. And if that isn't enough for you, I wouldn't
be holding my breath for God to do any party tricks to get your attention.
You already have the scriptures.
February 11th, 2011 01:38 AM 87

HeIsEnough
HeIsEnough
Apr 2007
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9,915
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Because you're not eternal, there cannot be eternity? Your personal knowledg
e of existence doesn't negate eternity, nor God. You exist now, and you have no
rational reason to think it will ever change, only a strange sort of faith wishe
s for future oblivion, and I think you would agree with that.
The scriptures are clear, you'll be judged by your deeds. If you think you h
ave no sin, who knows, maybe it will go well with you, there's always a first ti
me. You'll be separated from God, there is no other place to go, and it is a ver
y dark place. It appears what you want, so I'm not sure what your complaint real
ly means. Do you desire or are somehow deserving of heaven?
You already have heard the gospel, the good news of forgiveness for those de
eds that will be judged. The Lord need do nothing else for you, what He did was
enough, as Mitsy related.
Is it really necessary for you to demand of God a sign? Is not your sin enou
gh of a sign? Your inability to do good, and your natural ability to sin not per
suasive enough?
You've neglected the greatest command of all, love the Lord your God with al
l your mind, soul and strength. Give thanks to God for that family He gave you,
acknowledge the Lord of hosts for His gracious provision in your life, all good
things come from Him. I'm sure I could have spurned my own fathers love enough f
or him to just let me move out, spurned him completely over his warnings of the
cold dark world waiting beyond his door. Even your own earthly father could not
have driven sense into you, if you desired enough to not be around him, to not l
ove him. Its like that.
that.
If you are sincere, then pray to God and ask Him. He has promised He will de
liver. I remember doing so, and fear and trembling is exactly what it felt like,
literally. I poured my whole heart out to Him, reminded Him of all my sin, and
He gave me refreshing and renewal, I was altogether different in mind, and my lo
ve for God only grew stronger because He is faithful. It was a relief because I
realized then that I was only in denial up to that point in my life. I'm sure I
am not alone in that experience. The Lord knows this as well, and it is why He t
ells us to come to Him and learn from Him, it is a pure love for you, untainted
by this wicked world. The scriptures remind us of the kindness and sternness of
God, so don't allow your own heart to deceive you. The Lord is not a genie in a
bottle, and absolutely do be on the look out for His response and don't ignore i
t when you see it. If you've already done so, then ask for forgiveness and try a
gain, He knows your every thought so again, lay your life before Him.
___________
___________
God
___________
Philippians 4:8
February 11th, 2011 05:13 AM 88

Kliska
Kliska
May 2007
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Conceiving of something has nothing to do with truth. Do you not want to kno
w the truth of reality and your own existence?
Sorry, but you are wrong. That sin has an impact on your life far greater th
an you can currently understand. When you spit on the sacrifice of the Son, when
you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, you remain in your sin, which has both present c
onsequences and eternal consequences. You also can not perform any deed, no matt
er how righteous it appears to other humans, that is truly good, or righteous, b
ecause it is not springing from the Holy Spirit Who would seal you, and indwell
you if you put your faith in Christ.
e afforded?
You don't seem to be catching on. Everyone is different in what evidence it
takes to maintain a choice. Thomas and Paul already believed in God, scott p.
If I had come here as a card-carrying born-again Christian, and told you tha
t I had given myself to Jesus after being visited by Saint Peter playing the bag
pipes, backed by a chorus of angels, you d have been shouting how wonderful it was
that God had chosen such a spectacular and undeniable way to show himself to me
. You wouldn t tell me I should have been content with the trees and the stars and
the time my grandma was ill but she got better.
You really have not read this forum very closely for very long, have you? I
can guarantee you, the reception you imagine in this scenario would not happen.
that.
You just proved my point; "I'll have no choice but to believe," if that is t
rue then that will NEVER happen for you. God is not interested in forcing your c
hoice. Here, read it again, for good measure; God is NOT interested in forcing y
our choice. You have all the evidence you need to put your faith on God.
February 11th, 2011 06:16 AM 89

OnceWasLost
OnceWasLost
Apr 2007
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that.
God doesn't put on a dog and pony show because we want one. Now, if you came
here with the bagpipe story we would know "a pipe" certainly had something to d
o with it and we would recommend you put yours down.
We need no further Thomas and Peter moments, Jesus is not on the earth any l
onger, and we have their account. We are comfortable with their account and God
has done plenty to make us aware of His existence.
We see no disconnect between God and the evidence of history. As you should
have noticed we are people who can reason and are intelligent enough to look at
that evidence and we simply reach a different conclusion than yours.
You should be aware that there are those rare occasions when prideful people
demand "evidence" and they get it, but are dismayed to see it took a crisis to
open their eyes. It is a fearful thing to bait God into showing up to satisfy th
e demands of ones pride.
My suspicion is that one day you may stand before Him stating that He never
revealed Himself, only to have Him remind you of your time here.
February 11th, 2011 06:26 AM 90

Steve53
Steve53
Jun 2008
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....
that.
If you wait too long, your moment of belief will come when your sentence is
being handed down. You have God's Word on that.

February 11th, 2011 08:06 AM 91

TimothyK
TimothyK
Sep 2008
Location
Texas
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894
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God is either God or He is not.
In order to be God, He has to be perfect in all His ways. He came up with th
e perfect way to save you that satisfies everything. If you refuse the perfect m
ercy done for you out of love, you'll still have to face God otherwise. The save
d face Him in love and mercy, in the satisfaction of everything accomplished by
Jesus Christ. Those who choose not to own up to God this way, must still own up
to a perfect and just God.
And because the lost choose to reject God's love and mercy, they must face G
od on their own merits and measure up to what God is; absolute perfection. Anyth
ing less then the standard of God, and it must be judged. A just and perfect God
cannot allow sin and still be just and perfect.
You're asking God not to be God.
That's not realistic. Maybe it can be argued in love and mercy, that He comp
lied to some extent in the person of Jesus Christ, but even then He cannot and d
id not deny Himself. Then He would be a liar. He is God, absolute and perfect. E
ven better, He cares for you and loves you. He made a way to reconcile you to Hi
mself and to avoid the fate of Hell by satisfying His justice, on His own Son, o
f the Godhead, Himself. Ever hear of anyone doing such a thing for a complete st
ranger, let alone an enemy deserving of judgment?
God offered Himself for you. There is no higher thing to be done then this.
God is the logical limit and that is what it took to reconcile mankind. If you r
eject this truly... there is no other recourse. Only the fear of judgment remain
s. God literally did everything He could for the reconciliation of mankind.
If your mother or father saw that you were going to die unless they offered
you their own beating heart in some bizarro transplant procedure, and they agree
d to do it because they loved you, do you not agree that this is love?
God did very much such a thing in the person of Jesus Christ. As to your arg
ument of being forced, by no means. The choice is yours and yours alone. You're
already predisposed to death and destined to die. God didn't have to do anything
in that regard. You have Satan to thank for that.
Do you want to remain in that situation, or would you like to live? God love
s you and desires that you live. This is the offer He makes you. This is the onl
y one that will save you. He has offered you life whereas you are in a hopeless
situation. It isn't God's fault that you are in that predicament.
_____
You are like a man hanging off the face of a large steep cliff, losing their
grip and about to fall to their death. God is like a good man passing and sees
you in your terrible situation. He is reaching out to you to grab you and pull y
ou up and save you from falling. There's no condition to be met or thing to do t
o earn this, other then to reach up and grab His hand. If you do that, He will p
ull you up.
Atheists and those who reject Jesus Christ are a strange flock who smack His
hand away and say 'no, let me do it!' in spite of their hopeless situation. Bei
ng a good person, God is going to try all your life (or however long your grip l
asts, which isn't long realistically) to extend His hand down and reason with yo
u to grab hold and live.
Hell is the fall. Death. Not that God should place you there when you fail t
he Christian game, but as a result of what happens when you fall off the face of
a steep craggy cliff; you die. That's what happens. God is offering you life. A
life saving hand to pull you up from your terrible situation which you find you
rself in. God doesn't want you to fall. He wants to save you.
Why be so unreasonable? Why not just grab His hand by faith?
February 11th, 2011 08:30 AM 92

acceptedinthebeloved
acceptedinthebeloved is offline Regular Member
May 2008
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2,467
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You are like a man hanging off the face of a large steep cliff, losing their
grip and about to fall to their death. God is like a good man passing and sees
you in your terrible situation. He is reaching out to you to grab you and pull y
ou up and save you from falling. There's no condition to be met or thing to do t
o earn this, other then to reach up and grab His hand. If you do that, He will p
ull you up.
Atheists and those who reject Jesus Christ are a strange flock who smack His
hand away and say 'no, let me do it!' in spite of their hopeless situation. Bei
ng a good person, God is going to try all your life (or however long your grip l
asts, which isn't long realistically) to extend His hand down and reason with yo
u to grab hold and live.
Hell is the fall. Death. Not that God should place you there when you fail t
he Christian game, but as a result of what happens when you fall off the face of
a steep craggy cliff; you die. That's what happens. God is offering you life. A
life saving hand to pull you up from your terrible situation which you find you
rself in. God doesn't want you to fall. He wants to save you.
Why be so unreasonable? Why not just grab His hand by faith?
Great post.
His gracious offer comes [came] at great cost to Himself.
See Isaiah 41:20-24 (where God is "speaking to false gods" to present their
case, and bring forward their strong arguments/reasons...) and then how He Himse
lf does it, in Isaiah 42:8-9 and Isaiah 46:5, 9-10.
February 11th, 2011 08:48 AM 93

lorenei
lorenei
lorenei is offline Raaaaaawr :3
Nov 2010
Location
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Posts
401
Default
You don't think that your non-belief affects the way you are with your frien
ds and family but it really does, Christ transforms your life and your heart whi
ch in return changes the way you are with others.
Before giving my life to Christ I was a "good person" by earthly standards -
I was never involved in any big trouble, I loved my family and my friends, I wa
s always happy to help people and had compassion for others. But since coming to
Christ I was shown myself in a true light, and turns out I'm not as good of a p
erson as I thought I was. But that's where He comes in, He takes whatever it is
you're lacking, whatever sin you are struggling with and helps you overcome it,
makes you whole, He gives you a new heart.
This change in you inevitabely changes the way you are with others. You say
that your decision to reject Christ would only affect Him but that couldn't be f
urther from the truth... it affects everything in your life and in the life of p
eople you come in contact with.
February 11th, 2011 10:19 AM 94

Wally
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Scott,
There is a great difference between us.
I acknowledge my sin. I confess it and ask forgivness.
You see no sin, therefore there is no need for repentance.
I know Who I have offended, and can be reconciled.
You do not know Him.
As for our lives, sin will produce its inevitable fruit. Bitter and pithy. W
orthless.
Christ in me will produce fruit both rich and useful. In the short term, you
may actually out "good" me in worldly terms.
In the eternal..... you are bankrupt.
Seek the real riches in Christ.
Last edited by Wally; February 11th, 2011 at 12:33 PM.
or Your Savior?
February 11th, 2011 10:40 AM 95

SaintTexas
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that.
Scott, I hope that you have an experience so profound and personal with the
Lord that belief will be seared into your heart forevermore. I do pray for you t
o have what you have said you desire in your heart---what I fear for you is that
your level of ignorance of what you just said about the level of faith created
in yourself to believe....I have no doubt He loves you and is calling you, but y
ou don't understand what is in your heart. I wonder if that is what happened to
Paul on the road to Damascus and if he might not have had a similar thought. Whe
n he was struck blind by the light of the Lord, he immediately believed and ackn
owledged the Lord Jesus and had an amazing journey with the Lord. I pray a Damas
cus experience for you as well.
May the Lord bless you with His presence in your life in a way that knocks y
ou off your feet and into a saving belief in Jesus Christ. Nicole
February 11th, 2011 11:07 AM 96

TimothyK
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If I had come here as a card-carrying born-again Christian, and told you tha
t I had given myself to Jesus after being visited by Saint Peter playing the bag
pipes, backed by a chorus of angels, you d have been shouting how wonderful it was
that God had chosen such a spectacular and undeniable way to show himself to me
.
Boy do you have a strange misconception of Christians. That's almost insulti

ng. Funny, but yeah. You show clearly here how much you really understand of Chr
istians and our faith.
that.
The Bible offers you the facts, not signs. How do you know you'll even live
to see your coveted sign? If you die before that sign comes? Where will you be t
hen? Where is your faith now? Today is the day of salvation. Now is the time. Li
fe is fleeting and unpredictable.
If you really want to believe in God, ask God to give you faith in what He h
as done for you. To reveal or unveil the covering over your eyes that you should
believe on God's son Jesus Christ.
God can give you faith if you ask Him. It's not a hard prayer to pray, if yo
u mean it and if you really want it. Where is your heart in the matter? Are you
willing to do that? Or is that beneath you? Are you too smart and dignified to d
o something so absurd as that? Is that all just a big waste of time?
That's all up to you. Your choice. If you can't do that, you need to have a
change of heart and reconsider your position before it's too late. It's my praye
r that you'll do just that.
Choose wisely. If you are objective minded, be mindful of these things. Anyt
hing less then 100% absolute certainty regarding God and Jesus Christ, and you'r
e taking the most foolish gamble anyone could ever take considering the stakes.
Even Christians believe by faith in God, yet most atheists seem to arrogantly th
ink they have a corner market on absolute truth and certainty.
Yet accuse Christians of this very same thing. The true Christian claim has
never changed at all since it's earliest conception. Yet human understanding is
revised constantly. I'd say that's more shaky then any other religion out there.
Even hypocritical on the part of these humanists. A bit like moving the goal po
sts, wouldn't you say?
Then again, true Christianity isn't a religion of the world if you carefully
compare it to these same religions. How much do you really understand of Christ
ianity, Scott? Because you sound like one who's been exposed to one of the many
fakers out there if even that.
There's much to learn here if you're willing, but only one simple thing for
you to do to accept the good gift our Lord and God Jesus Christ has purchased fo
r you: believe by faith on the one God has sent. Jesus Christ. He offers you Lif
e more abundant, ever lasting and complete. Not broken and fleeting as it is now
, but perfect and everlasting.
February 13th, 2011 01:32 AM 97

scott p
Dec 2010
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Quote Originally Posted by Katana View Post
An athiest will tell you if there is something wrong with the ways of the "L
aws of Science" are performing then there is something wrong with the laws thems
elves and they need revising.
That's correct. It's a wonderful feeling to be able to say, "That doesn't se
em right, let's look some more to find out why"
Quote Originally Posted by Steve53 View Post
Most atheists rarely think for themselves (the very thing they frequently ac
cuse us of ) as evidenced by the lack of original thought given to their limited
set of talking points.
Can you please expand on this a bit, Steve?
I do get a smile though at the irony of catching some author slipping and th
e word(s) Creator or creation appearing in the text shortly before, or just afte
r some millions and billions of years reference.
Can you give us an example or two? I'd love to explore this further.
a true atheist in order to hold to their position without being a flaming hy
pocrite must profess absolute certainty in the truth of man and an absolute know
ledge of God's nonexistance.
An honest 'atheist' can only concede they are a type of agnostic.
{mod snip}
Last edited by Kliska; February 13th, 2011 at 04:41 AM. Reason: Rule 10
February 13th, 2011 02:17 AM 98

Tangle
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scott p, are you an atheist?
Cherish his Word
February 13th, 2011 04:43 AM 99

Kliska
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scott p, you will treat others with respect on this board. TimothyK has a ve
ry valid point, just because you had no answer, does not mean you will be allowe
d to fall back on sarcasm.
You need to be making use of your time given to you on here. BTW, please rev
iew the rules: http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?2-Bo...es-for-Posting
February 13th, 2011 07:26 AM 100

Steve53
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That's correct. It's a wonderful feeling to be able to say, "That doesn't se
em right, let's look some more to find out why"
Keep looking Scott. Find out why God loves you enough that He sent His Son w
ho died on a cross and then conquered death so that you could live forever with
Him. Find Him soon Scott. Tomorrow might be too late.
Can you please expand on this a bit, Steve?
No need. You got the point.
Can you give us an example or two? I'd love to explore this further.
We aren't a debate platform. You can find plenty examples on your own.
ETA - Scott - One thread for you is enough for the time being. Please confin
e your postings to this thread and this thread alone. Your posts from the other
thread (and the replies to same) have all been merged into this thread. I strong
ly suggest you re-read this entire thread and take to heart the things said to y
ou out of concern for your eternal well being.

Steve53
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.... An honest 'atheist' can only concede they are a type of agnostic. ....
Amazing how professing atheists try so very hard to quantify their faith in
non-belief with qualifiers that only prove they are deluding themselves. They ra
nt and rave against the certain knowledge of God that He has imparted into every
single cell in their bodies. It's a pity really, that one day God will give the
ardent disbeliever their wish, He will leave them to their hardened hearts and
they will suffer the same fate reserved for Satan and his fallen angels.

February 14th, 2011 01:53 AM 102

scott p
Dec 2010
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Because you're not eternal, there cannot be eternity? Your personal knowledg
e of existence doesn't negate eternity, nor God. You exist now, and you have no
rational reason to think it will ever change, only a strange sort of faith wishe
s for future oblivion, and I think you would agree with that.
Of course the world will go on without me, but I have no reason to think tha
t there must be another existance for me after I'm dead. I don't wish for oblivi
on, but I accept that it's what awaits me.
You'll be separated from God, there is no other place to go, and it is a ver
y dark place. It appears what you want, so I'm not sure what your complaint real
ly means. Do you desire or are somehow deserving of heaven?
If heaven is real, yes, I d like to go there. Do I deserve to? That s not my cal
l (or yours), I m just questioning the criteria that s been set for entry.
Is it really necessary for you to demand of God a sign? Is not your sin enou
gh of a sign? Your inability to do good, and your natural ability to sin not per
suasive enough?
What you call sin, I call being human. I suppose I do some things that other
s don t like, but I think I generally fall on the side of being good either way, I m
not sure how that proves God s existance.
I'm sure I could have spurned my own fathers love enough for him to just let
me move out, spurned him completely over his warnings of the cold dark world wa
iting beyond his door. Even your own earthly father could not have driven sense
into you, if you desired enough to not be around him, to not love him. Its like
that.
That s the example I used before. You can leave home and try to fend for yours
elf, but the difference is that even if you never saw him again, you would have
a chance to make of it what you could, no matter how bad it was out there the co
ld dark world is not of his making. How would you feel about your father if you
were not given that chance, if he had built a furnace into which you fell the mo
ment you walked out the door?
If your mother or father saw that you were going to die unless they offered
you their own beating heart in some bizarro transplant procedure, and they agree
d to do it because they loved you, do you not agree that this is love?
It most certainly is love. But is it love if the reason I was going to die w
as because they were going to kill me?
I acknowledge my sin. I confess it and ask forgivness.
You see no sin, therefore there is no need for repentance.
I know Who I have offended, and can be reconciled.
If I do the wrong thing by somebody, they are the only one that can forgive
me. I don't believe I'll get a second chance to be forgiven by a higher power. T
hat makes me try to do the right thing the first time.
Quote Originally Posted by SaintTexas View Post
I wonder if that is what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus and if he
might not have had a similar thought. When he was struck blind by the light of t
he Lord, he immediately believed and acknowledged the Lord Jesus and had an amaz
ing journey with the Lord. I pray a Damascus experience for you as well.
Thank you Nicole. That s the kind of acknowledgement I ve been looking for, howe
ver a number of people over the years have said I don t deserve that kind of exper
ience, that I should already be convinced by what was good enough for them.
February 14th, 2011 02:15 AM 103

HeIsEnough
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And therein lies your faith..
Believers who come to know the Lord recognize these things, our faith is giv
en substance, whereas yours is based on nothing.
In spite of what others who know nothing about faith in God say, faith in th
e Lord is not blind, He substantiates it.
Every reason I've seen and read from great minds in this world is worthless
on this point, they truly have blind faith, they perhaps know even less than you
on this point because they perhaps never heard the truth. You've at least heard
that, and heard it explained by many here quite well. Seems to me you were mean
t to hear it, don't ignore it.
If heaven is real, yes, I d like to go there. Do I deserve to? That s not my cal
l (or yours), I m just questioning the criteria that s been set for entry.
All things being equal, questioning the criteria is the same as what the Dev
il does, so you're in league with him on that, doesn't seem reasonable any man w
ould be comfortable in that position.
God decides, He laid out the criteria, it starts with love for Him and desir
e to know Him, a humble and contrite heart that recognizes it needs help and doe
sn't stop there, it actually seeks God's help. These simple truths are not too d
ifficult to see, really easy to pick apart and find things you don't like about
it, but one thing is for sure, those truths remain, you can't make a dent in it,
its impervious to assault.
What you call sin, I call being human. I suppose I do some things that other
s don t like, but I think I generally fall on the side of being good either way, I m
not sure how that proves God s existance.
Everyone thinks they weigh more good than bad, even a murderer I suppose. Ju
st proves its a meaningless concept. It doesn't outright prove God's existence,
it proves you need a Savior. If you don't think so then go your way, you need no
thing I suppose.
That s the example I used before. You can leave home and try to fend for yours
elf, but the difference is that even if you never saw him again, you would have
a chance to make of it what you could, no matter how bad it was out there the co
ld dark world is not of his making. How would you feel about your father if you
were not given that chance, if he had built a furnace into which you fell the mo
ment you walked out the door?
You are living your chance of making a go at it. Not so subtle insinuations
against God and the place created for demons won't help you. If I can see them,
God certainly does.
All goes back to questioning God and His requirements over you, which you do
n't like. The facts are, you know you're a sinner, God says to listen to His Son
, He has good news for you. You don't like that God demands your life, and there
you sit, alone. No one to blame but yourself, everyone here sees your predicame
nt, and we've dealt with ours. You recognize you're out of the Fathers house, th
ere is a place that awaits those not wanting to live with the Father, and you go
there willingly because you refuse to move back in with the Father. You're out
the door, and yet not in a furnace, and yet God calls you back into the house be
cause of His great love. Who is being foolish here? Just exactly who can you bla
me at this point? If you can't convince even me, what makes you think you can pe
rsuade God His plan has flaws? I'm listening.
Thank you Nicole. That s the kind of acknowledgement I ve been looking for, howe
ver a number of people over the years have said I don t deserve that kind of exper
ience, that I should already be convinced by what was good enough for them.
Back to the deserving of something. Your intentions and motivations are blin
ding you into a tussle with the Lord. You won't win.
___________
___________
God
___________
Philippians 4:8
February 14th, 2011 03:26 AM 104

Steve53
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Without Christ, oblivion would be a welcome relief from what awaits.
Alas, oblivion is not an option.

February 14th, 2011 04:29 AM 105

Kliska
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I m just questioning the criteria that s been set for entry.
Really important clarification: What do you believe is the criteria that has
been set for entry?
February 15th, 2011 10:46 AM 106

SaintTexas
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Scott,
I don't know what will happen for you and with you. I am not sure as I read
your posts if you are genuine or not in seeking the Truth, but it's not importan
t if I know it or not, and I can see at this point that what you really need is
prayer from me. I shared my story with you, and I will pray for you and try to b
e a good pointer to Jesus Christ and His Word.
The Lord sorts out our hearts and He knows how to deal with each of us and d
oes; some people do need a Damascus Road experience to come to a saving faith, p
eriod. Paul's experience is surely in there for personal application as well for
some people! We are all in a pit before we know Jesus; most of us don't know it
(at least not for a long time). Some pits are uglier or deeper TO US when we lo
ok at each other---a pit is a pit to Jesus (sin is sin to God) and He is always
able to go deeper than wherever we are and rescue us when we ask. His Truth is a
lways the same, as is the nature of sin, but He is so kind to address us persona
lly and individually, and I am sure that you are no exception here.
This site that you are on is a site where we believe the Bible teaches that
Jesus will return for His Church and will take the group alive at this time on e
arth and leave everyone else, those who have not repented as a sinner and accept
ed His payment on the cross for their sins, to go through a seven year period th
at will be horrific beyond anything we can dream up or Hollywood can cook up for
a blockbuster (see Revelation for the details). It seems almost totally unbelie
veable, and even as I type it, I realize that it sounds foolish to someone who h
as not studied the Bible and who is not a believer. Personally, I studied the Ra
pture 18 months before I decided if it was really taught in the Bible and what t
he timing was in the Bible---I did this as a believer. Many come to faith in Jes
us when they study this. I mention this because some people will need to be left
behind when the Rapture happens to come into a saving faith in Jesus---it will
be what makes them come to the cross to repent. Nothing else would cause them to
do this but that, and the Lord knows this. He sees the beginning from the end,
and He knows each day of our life. They will have known about the Rapture--wheth
er they read about it on a site like this, heard it from their grandmother, actu
ally were taught it in church (which is really rare today---most churches will n
ot touch this topic or prophesy), or a Christian friend who had witnessed to the
m for 25 years, etc. For them, it will be their Damascus moment. For some, it ta
kes more to repent and place their faith in Jesus, for whatever reason. The Lord
knows who are His. I don't worry about this because it's not my Church. It's Hi
s and He is building it and is merciful in using us at all! I just get on here a
nd share my heart when I feel like I am supposed to. I am not involved in every
thread, and this was the only time I have ever shared my testimony--I didn't eve
n do it when I was new to the site. I thought this was somewhere the Lord wanted
me to be.
I think you are being ministered to by people here in this thread by the Lor
d. I am certainly no one special at all---look at all these different folks who
came onto this thread to minister to you, share with you, answer your questions,
pray over you. That is pretty incredible if you will allow that to sink in and
have it's intended effect. I encourage you to see those who are taking their tim
e to respond on the thread as those who love you in a way that you don't underst
and today. It's straight from the heart of God to you, personally.
I think most of us here hope that you have whatever your come-to-Jesus momen
t is before this and are with us in Heaven. You are in my prayers to come to kno
w Jesus and to know Him with every fiber of your being beyond any doubt you have
ever had that you might be a bold witness for Him with a life completely new an
d transformed by Him so that He can use your life to tell others about Himself a
nd as evidence of what He can do.
Nothing is impossible for the Lord.
Nicole
February 15th, 2011 11:53 AM 107

scott p
Dec 2010
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Boy do you have a strange misconception of Christians. That's almost insulti
ng. Funny, but yeah. You show clearly here how much you really understand of Chr
istians and our faith.
Yeah, perhaps a bit over the top, but it was meant to illustrate a point. Be
lievers are likely to be welcomed in without any questions about their reason fo
r believing, no matter how outlandish it could potentially be. Non-believers tho
ugh, can be met with astonishment that they haven t accepted what may be far less
than it took to convince you.
Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
scott p, are you an atheist?
Yes I am.
scott p, you will treat others with respect on this board. TimothyK has a ve
ry valid point, just because you had no answer, does not mean you will be allowe
d to fall back on sarcasm.
I ll offer up an apology right now. It was in no way meant to be disrespectful
, but I m sure there are times in life when you find yourself repeating the same t
hing over and over. Regardless, please accept my apology Timothy.
I m happy to give an answer to his comment, and this may also help Tangle with
her question. Being an atheist is simply a matter of not believing in any gods.
Agnosticism is a matter of whether we can know for sure.
As an example, do you believe that the Loch Ness monster is real? No, you ve s
een nothing yet that suggests that she is. Do you think we can be certain about
that? No, there could be something down there in the dark, but based on what you
do know you're quite justified in saying you don't believe it.
February 15th, 2011 12:02 PM 108

scott p
Dec 2010
Posts
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Really important clarification: What do you believe is the criteria that has
been set for entry?
I must beg forgiveness not from the people that I may have harmed, but from
a third party who is harmed even more than the actual victims.
I must beg forgiveness for not meeting standards that, even before my birth,
were determined to be impossible for any person to meet.
I must admit my guilt for a crime committed by another person thousands of y
ears ago.
February 15th, 2011 01:22 PM 109

Wally
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3x swing and a miss.
Criteria:
What have you done with Jesus?
How have you regarded His Son and the sacrifice He made for you?
Who's fault will it be for not believing?
The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers
Luke 20:9-20 (New King James Version)
9 Then He began to tell the people this parable: A certain man planted a vine
yard, leased it to vinedressers, and went into a far country for a long time. 10
Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that they might give
him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the vinedressers beat him and sent h
im away empty-handed. 11 Again he sent another servant; and they beat him also,
treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed. 12 And again he sent a t
hird; and they wounded him also and cast him out.
13 Then the owner of the vineyard said, What shall I do? I will send my belove
d son. Probably they will respect him when they see him. 14 But when the vinedres
sers saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir. Come, let
us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. 15 So they cast him out of the vi
neyard and killed him. Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do to them?
16 He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others.
And when they heard it they said, Certainly not!
17 Then He looked at them and said, What then is this that is written:
The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone ?
18 Whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it
will grind him to powder.
19 And the chief priests and the scribes that very hour sought to lay hands
on Him, but they feared the people for they knew He had spoken this parable agai
nst them.
Your life is like this vineyard. The Owner is coming to claim that which is
His. Have you joined the others by killing the Son in your heart so that you may
posess your own life and be ruler of it?
or Your Savior?
February 15th, 2011 02:06 PM 110

OnceWasLost
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ears ago.
Again you demonstrate a lack of understanding. Begging makes it seem like an
option on God's part, based on Him being able to discern your sincerity.
When a person comes to repentance, their is certainty in the outcome. He is
not some angry withdrawn super being, as some characterize Him, rather He is one
who grieves over man's condition and did what was required to release man from
a death sentence, eternally speaking.
Nobody, aside from those who have known His grace, can fathom the depths of
this kind of love and beauty. I am sure if you were to ask those here who know H
im, it is not fear that keeps us in fellowship with Him, it is instead the comfo
rt of day to day relationship with Him.
As 1 John 4:19 tells us "We love Him because He first loved us."
February 15th, 2011 03:06 PM 111

Steve53
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You really need to step back and take a long hard look at your position.
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filth
y rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have ta
ken us away.
ears ago.
Absolutely false. You will stand on your own. You will stand either with Chr
ist as your advocate or your executioner - the choice is yours. Deciding not to
choose (because you think it unnecessary because you doubt God's existence) is s
till a choice.

February 15th, 2011 03:23 PM 112

Steve53
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Being an atheist is simply a matter of not believing in any gods. Agnosticis
m is a matter of whether we can know for sure.
As an example, do you believe that the Loch Ness monster is real? No, you ve s
een nothing yet that suggests that she is. Do you think we can be certain about
that? No, there could be something down there in the dark, but based on what you
do know you're quite justified in saying you don't believe it.
You see the logical fallacy in the above Scott?
It is your example after all, and if you do think as you illustrated above,
then you must have some doubts. Freudian slip and all that jazz?

February 15th, 2011 03:34 PM 113

Steve53
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....Believers are likely to be welcomed in without any questions about their
reason for believing, no matter how outlandish it could potentially be. Non-bel
ievers though, can be met with astonishment that they haven t accepted what may be
far less than it took to convince you.
Believers get asked all the time about their testimony. Someone honestly com
ing to Christ is a joyous occasion and never is one testimony more outlandish th
an another. We all are sinners Scott. Even Christians continue to sin. The diffe
rence is we have trusted in Jesus for the redemption of our sins before God.
If you're still looking to be "convinced" you may be disappointed. God is kn
ocking on the door to your heart and it's up to you to invite Him in, and not th
e other way around. You must humble yourself before Him for He will not humble H
imself before you.

February 15th, 2011 04:17 PM 114

HeIsEnough
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Apr 2007
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Isaiah 45
18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed
the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he for
med it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19I have not spok
en in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, S
eek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are rig
ht.
20Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of t
he nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, a
nd pray unto a god that cannot save.
21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hat
h declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I t
he LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is
none beside me.
22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, an
d there is none else.
23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness,
and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swe
ar.
You must forgive those who've harmed you, and ask forgiveness from those you
've harmed. You have not loved the Lord, and have harmed those He has created, h
ave spoken against Him, so yes you must ask God for forgiveness, and see His ric
hes and mercy towards you.
He has spoken to you, it is not a secret. He speaks righteousness, and decla
res what is right.
John 14:23
Jesus replied, Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love
them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
The first commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul
and mind. Have you failed at the very first commandment? You can do what God sa
ys.
ears ago.
Your own crimes are what condemn you, you must believe thousands of years ag
o the man Jesus paid the penalty for your own crimes. Then when the court is set
in place, and the Ancient of Days takes His throne, you'll have an advocate on
your behalf, and He will say to the Judge, "this one is mine, I purchased him wi
th my own blood" And a glorious day it will be for the man who has the Advocate
before the Father of heavenly lights.
___________
___________
God
___________
Philippians 4:8
February 16th, 2011 09:08 PM 115

scott p
Dec 2010
Posts
25
Default
Quote Originally Posted by Steve53 View Post
No need. You got the point.
I get your point, but it s a bit general. I realise that you guys have the hom
e ground advantage of being able to simply make your comments and let them stand
, but I like to either give examples to support what I say, or respond to any su
bsequent questions. If you re going to say I don t think for myself and have limited
talking points, I think it s only courteous to help me understand what you mean.
Given that my atheism is nothing more than a response to theists claims, that to
some extent limits my talking points to whatever s been proposed.
We aren't a debate platform. You can find plenty examples on your own.
I ve never considered us to be debating, but rather just talking to each other
- I m not trying to win anything. But I did try to find some examples of what you
mentioned, and all I could find was the work of some old earth creationists. Co
rrect me if I m wrong, but I don t think they re the authors you re talking about. What
you ve said is a very specific (and one assumes, rare) claim, and if it were me I d
try to have some examples to refer to.

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