Bennie Rosenberg Director of Operations PDF

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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Investigation of: *
*
NATURAL GAS-FUELED EXPLOSION OF *
RESIDENCE, DALLAS, TEXAS * Accident No.: PLD18FR002
FEBRUARY 23, 2018 *
*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Interview of: BENNY ROSENBERG
Hampton Inn and Suites

Dallas, Texas
Saturday,
March 3, 2018
Free State Reporting, Inc.

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APPEARANCES:
RACHAEL GUNARATNAM, Hazardous Materials Accident

Investigator
Emergency Response Group
National Transportation Safety Board
STEPHEN JENNER, Ph.D., Human Performance Investigator

MICHAEL JONES, Accident Investigator

Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration
PHILLIP MURDOCK, Director of Engineering and Compliance

Atmos Energy
THOMAS TOBIN, Attorney

Wilson Elser
(On behalf of Atmos Energy)

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I N D E X
ITEM PAGE
Interview of Benny Rosenberg:
By Ms. Gunaratnam 5
By Dr. Jenner 24
By Mr. Murdock 29
By Ms. Gunaratnam 31
By Mr. Murdock 35
By Ms. Gunaratnam 37

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1 I N T E R V I E W
2 (3:43 p.m.)
3 MS. GUNARATNAM: Good afternoon. My name is Rachael
4 Gunaratnam and I am an investigator with the National
5 Transportation Safety Board. Today is March 3, 2018 and the time
6 is 3:43 p.m. We are currently at the Hampton Inn in Dallas,
7 Texas. We are here to investigate the house explosion at 3534
8 Espanola Drive in Dallas that occurred on Friday, February 23,
9 2018.
10 In this interview, we will be talking to Benny Rosenberg and
11 I will start by first going around the room. Please introduce
12 yourself, spell your name, and title.
13 My name is Rachael Gunaratnam, R-A-C-H-A-E-L, G-U-N-A-R-A-T-
14 N-A-M, hazmat investigator with the NTSB.
15 DR. JENNER: I'm Stephen Jenner, S-T-E-P-H-E-N, J-E-N-N-E-R,
16 a human performance investigator with the NTSB.
17 MR. ROSENBERG: Benny Rosenberg, B-E-N-N-Y,
18 R-O-S-E-N-B-E-R-G. I'm an operations manager for Atmos Energy.
19 MR. TOBIN: My name is Tom Tobin, T-O-B-I-N. I'm an attorney
20 with the Wilson Elser, E-L-S-E-R, law firm in New York.
21 MR. MURDOCK: Phillip Murdock, P-H-I-L-L-I-P, M-U-R-D-O-C-K.
22 I'm Director of Engineering and Compliance for Atmos Energy.
23 MR. JONES: Michael Jones, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, J-O-N-E-S, an
24 accident investigator with PHMSA.
25 INTERVIEW OF BENNY ROSENBERG

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1 BY MS. GUNARATNAM:
2 Q. All right. So we'll just begin with, could you explain your
3 background with the company, how long you've been with them, which
4 positions you have, that kind of thing?
5 A. Okay. Started in 1974, been with the company 43 years. So
6 career has been several positions, starting in construction and

2
7 ___
maintenance. At that time they called it a utility worker too,
8 but that's where we started. After a period of time in
9 construction and maintenance, I was in the office of construction
10 and maintenance. I'm not sure what the title was. Might have
11 been like a general clerk, but basically was responsible for
12 timesheets and things like that.
13 I believe it was in my seventh year, I became a supervisor
14 for the company of construction and maintenance. And then about a
15 year later, I was an instructor at our training center. This was
16 Lone Star Gas, and was an instructor for the company for about 10
17 years. After that, I was supervisor again for a period of time,
18 not exactly sure the time frame; 43 years, 44 years is a lot of
19 time.
20 Q. Yeah.
21 A. But around 1994, I became what they called a team
22 coordinator, very similar to a supervisory role, and about a short
23 period to time after that became what they call a regional manager
24 in the Garland office, and was in that role until 1997, when we
25 became TXU. More or less, we was bought by TXU Energy. And in

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1 that role, soon became a -- I believe they called it manager of
2 customer service over in the Fort Worth office.
3 And after Atmos Energy bought TXU Gas, which was in 2004,
4 became a operations manager, and I believe I've been in Dallas
5 since around 2008, 2009, I believe, is the time frame, and been
6 there ever since.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. So going back to February 23rd, can you go
8 ahead and just start with when you first heard about this
9 incident, what time, and your communications with people, Kyle,
10 whoever, and just kind of timeline it out?
11 A. I was on my way to work that morning and while en route to
12 the Dallas service center, got a phone call from Mike Rose, Jr.,
13 who called me to tell me there had been, I believe in his words, a
14 big boom. And we conversed for just a few minutes. I was trying
15 to determine where was this location that he was talking about.
16 And he was not sure, so I asked him, try to tell me, you know,
17 where we were talking about, and I told him I would call Kyle and
18 let him know immediately.

[a.m.]
19 I called Kyle at 6:45,| and the only reason I know that,
20 because when I punched the phone up on the -- in the truck, the
21 clock's right there, so I just -- so it was only a couple minutes
22 before when Mike called me.
23 So I called Kyle and tell him that -- what Mike has conveyed
24 to me, and from that point I try to call Mike back and try to
25 determine a location exactly. He -- all he could basically tell

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1 me was it seemed like it was about three buildings, and I forget
2 the exact word he used, but anyway, behind him, back to the east
3 from where they were working at in the alley, because they were
4 there in the alley.
5 So after that, I headed into the office to start getting
6 things together to try to assist and help.
7 Q. Okay. So what kind of things were you gathering at the
8 office to help?
9 A. Looking at maps and trying to determine exactly where this
10 may have happened at. At some point in time Kyle made mention to
11 me -- he got to the office and we talked about the -- we needed to
12 evacuate the block. And I believe he had already called Mike and
13 told him that. And then a decision was made to isolate that block
14 from gas service.
15 And what I was doing at that point was trying to determine
16 where was the valves and how could I could assist. I should
17 backup. I did call Brice Cassell after talking to Mike. Brice
18 was supposed to be going out to that scene that morning, if you
19 will, to help Mike, really try to relieve him because he had been
20 there through the night. And I called Brice to make sure he was
21 headed to that location instead of coming into the office.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. And when you -- did you get in touch with him?
25 A. Yes, I did.

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1 Q. And he was --
2 A. He was getting ready at his house and he was fixing to head
3 that way.
4 Q. Okay. So after -- you said you tried to -- you had spoke to
5 Kyle to evacuate the block, make the -- decision was already
6 communicated to Mike, and to isolate that block. What happened
7 after that?
8 A. They went -- I mean, I'm only telling what I know from not
9 being on the scene obviously --
10 Q. Sure.
11 A. -- but they started their evacuation process, and when Brice
12 got there, they were trying to find these two valves, one at Larga
13 and one at Marsh, so that the alley could be shut down between
14 Espanola and Durango. And they had to shut off 2 blocks, because
15 that's where the valves were.
16 Q. Okay. So then what was your interactions after that?
17 A. My interactions basically was to continue to communicate with
18 them and find out when they had that gas off, because we wanted to
19 know when the gas was off, and report back to Kyle, because that's
20 really -- you know, that was the interaction between Kyle and I.
21 As things were directed, I try to make sure that they happen and
22 happen as quickly as possible.
23 Q. Okay. And who are you communicating with specifically in the
24 field?
25 A. Was Mike Rose and Brice Cassell.

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1 Q. Okay. So what was told to you about evacuating the school,
2 to do?
3 A. It's simply that, that they were going to call the school and
4 work with the school about evacuating on a, as a -- I guess you'd
5 call it, just expanded safety.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. Just part of the safety protocol.
8 Q. Okay. So let's go back to what you were executing for Kyle.
9 Can you -- the map, could you explain your first, like, direction
10 to evacuate, and then move from there?
11 A. The first evacuation was the block of between Espanola and
12 Durango. I believe you call that the 3500 block, I believe is
13 what that is.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. And then after that, we were instructed that what you see in
16 this area outlined between the alley north of Espanola and the
17 alley south of Cortez, between Larga and -- this is Marsh. That
18 was the first area that was evacuated.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. TOBIN: And is that as outlined in pink on the drawing?
21 MR. ROSENBERG: Yes.
22 MS. GUNARATNAM: Okay.
23 MR. TOBIN: So because you have it, can you withdraw your
24 request that we produce the information on it?
25 MS. GUNARATNAM: Sure.

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1 MR. TOBIN: Good. Takes my homework away.
2 MS. GUNARATNAM: Okay. And then maybe afterwards, we can
3 talk about timing, after this interview.
4 MR. TOBIN: Well, he may know about timing.
5 MS. GUNARATNAM: Do you know -- okay.
6 MR. ROSENBERG: No, I can't tell you exactly what timing was
7 for some of these decisions.
8 MS. GUNARATNAM: Sure. Okay.
9 MR. ROSENBERG: I mean, I know when we were told what we
10 needed to do.
11 MS. GUNARATNAM: Okay. Yeah.
13 Q. So you started with the first two and then you expanded out
14 to this exact outline, the pink boundary?
15 A. Um-hum.
16 Q. Okay. So -- and when did the evacuation of the school
17 happen?
18 A. I don't remember the exact time, to be honest, what time that
19 was, because there was discussions between the school and our
20 company.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. So I don't know exactly what time that was determined.
23 Q. Sure. Can you tell me if it was after this block?
24 A. It was after this block.
25 Q. Um-hum.

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1 A. I think it might -- I'd be guessing.
2 Q. Oh, okay. That's fine.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. That's fine. Okay. And so you were executing those orders
5 to evacuate those areas. And so what happened after that?
6 A. The main thing we were really focusing on was getting this
7 gas off this area, shutting valves down, because the next set of
8 valves, as I told -- mentioned, I think, was between Durango and
9 Cortez. Still again, between Larga and Marsh. And then I think
10 we went to the next alley north, I think that's between Espanola
11 and Fontana, is that how you say that street's name?
12 Q. Oh, it's further? Okay.
13 A. Well, it's this alley right here.
14 Q. Oh, okay.
15 A. It's just the next street up.
16 Q. Sure. Yeah. Fontana?
17 A. Fontana. Yeah.
18 Q. Yeah.
19 A. It's this alley right here.
20 Q. Okay. Got it.
21 A. And then from there, we came down to this alley down here.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. And then --
24 Q. Which turns -- right. And you shut off -- can you show me
25 where the valves are?

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1 A. Well, they're basically at each end.
2 Q. Each end. Okay.
3 A. At each end. Down here at -- well, how you say it, Bolivar?
4 We actually had to put a short stop because the valves didn't line
5 up properly to be able to shut the gas off going north. And on
6 the north end, where we -- of Larga, where we shut the gas off, we
7 had to put a short stop there as well. And then the -- there was
8 a third short stop we had to put on because it was necessary; the
9 valves were, some difficult to operate.
10 Q. Sure. And that third one was, what's the name of that
11 street?
12 A. I believe it's --
13 Q. Marsh?
14 A. Oh, this is Marsh here and the alley between Espanola and
15 Fontana.
16 Q. Okay. Espanola and -- okay.
17 A. And that -- well.
18 Q. Okay. So your focus was -- when was that work all completed?
19 Do you remember?
20 A. When the -- when was the gas off the system?
21 Q. Yeah.
22 A. 10:23 p.m. and the main reason I remember that is because it
23 was -- the supervisor, Brice Cassell, had it in his phone. So he

p.m.
|
24 come into the command center and told the gas was off at 10:23.
25 Q. Friday the 23rd.

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1 A. Um-hum.
2 Q. Okay. And the supervisor confirmed that?
3 A. Um-hum.
4 Q. Sorry, what was his name again?
5 A. Brice --
6 Q. Brice.
7 A. -- Cassell.
8 Q. Right. Brice. Okay. And the shutdown is usually that, it
9 takes a while?
10 A. It can.
11 Q. It can?
12 A. I mean, like we said, we had to weld on these short stops
13 so --
14 Q. Right.
15 A. -- you got to dig out the pipe. It takes a while to --
16 remember the conditions that we were talking about --
17 Q. Right. Yeah.
18 A. -- and it takes a while. It's got to be welded on, it's got
19 to be tapped out --
20 Q. Right.
21 A. -- and then needs to be purged, the system. So, yes, it took
22 a while.
23 Q. Right. And how did you -- like, were there any challenges
24 that you were dealing with as you were trying to do this work?
25 A. Well, weather, obviously.

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1 A. Oh, yeah. Kenneth Parks.
2 Q. Kenneth Parks? Okay.
3 A. Um-hum.
4 Q. And he's also an operations manager?
5 A. He's an operations manager.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. He's actually out of the Arlington office and I'm, of course,
8 out of the Dallas office.
9 Q. Okay. So you know how -- you said you don't know exact time
10 he arrived, but it was soon after you left.
11 A. I think he was there quite a bit of time before I left.
12 Q. Oh, okay. And this was at the command post?
13 A. Um-hum. One of us had to be at the command post.
14 Q. Got it. And do you know when he left, by any chance?
15 A. The next morning?
16 Q. Um-hum.
17 A. We had a way of -- whatever our rotation was, we usually
18 stayed longer than that, so --
19 Q. Right.
20 A. -- I'm not sure what time he actually left. We -- it
21 could've been a couple of hours or better.
22 Q. Sure.
23 A. Again, I would guess.
24 Q. Yeah. So it's a 12-hour rotation?
25 A. That's what we had set up.

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1 Q. Right. I mean, not that you guys stayed -- you could have
2 stayed longer, but it's generally a 12-hour --
3 A. They normally -- yeah. Right.
4 Q. Okay. And do you know who took over from Kenneth after --
5 oh, you came back. Oh, there's only two of you. Okay. Got it.
6 Okay. So you came back on scene to the command post in the
7 morning.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. So tell me what you did there, after, in the morning.
10 A. The next morning, basically, Ken Parks kind of explains
11 what's been going on through the night and what areas had been
12 expanded as far as either -- especially in survey, and in that
13 survey, of course, if leaks were found, what leaks had been found
14 through the night, what had been repaired, what was still in the
15 process of being repaired, and basically I took over that
16 responsibility again, back to coordination.
17 Q. Right.
18 A. Crews, service techs, and getting the work done, because we

grade
19 were working all leaks, no matter what _____
rate they were at that
20 point in time.
21 Q. Okay. Were there any new challenges that were discovered in
22 the process of -- over the night?
23 A. Over the night? I think the challenges Ken was -- the
24 customers coming to the command center who had been evacuated and
25 looking for assistance now, so that was a challenge for him as

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1 well.
2 Q. Because he didn't know where -- what was the challenge
3 exactly? Just --
4 A. Well, people looking for where to go stay and --
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. -- eventually, our municipal public affairs group took over
7 that responsibility. But at night, people might show up and he
8 would try to assist them.
9 Q. I see. So when you took over, he communicated what had been
10 going on with the crews, what leaks, and so forth, and then he
11 left the scene, you took over --
12 A. Um-hum.
13 Q. -- and then, so what happened after that?
14 A. Like I mentioned, there was still surveys going on. So there
15 was leaks being found, which means, needed to have crews go to
16 those locations, service techs would try to go, and I think we had
17 a situation where we were evacuating every leak, individual, and
18 if that was the appropriate thing, and almost every case, with the
19 exception of a couple of above-ground leaks, we were evacuating.
20 And they were to evacuate, maintain safety, make sure that the
21 area was still safe until a crew got there, until we got the gas
22 off, and until it was safe to let the customers back into their
23 home.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. And as they found leaks, we continued that process.

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1 Q. And do you know how many residents that involved, or
2 households, from Friday to Saturday?
3 A. I know they mentioned -- so this is not my count or my words,
4 but around 300, is what was mentioned. But there was also some
5 apartments down here too. That was like four sets of apartments
6 down here.
7 Q. Oh, okay.
8 A. So it was a large number that were evacuated.
9 Q. Okay. And did you ever interact with the fire department
10 from Friday to Saturday, Sunday?
11 A. Oh, yes.
12 Q. Okay. What kind of interactions did you have with them?
13 A. I mean, they parked their command post right by our command
14 post, so we were constantly communicating and updating. Matter of
15 fact, even on this Saturday and Sunday, both, they didn't move
16 their command post, I don't believe, until sometime Sunday after
17 the evacuation got lifted. So I'm started to wonder if that's
18 when the evacuation was lifted, was on Sunday. I'm not sure.
19 Q. Sure. And what kind of information did you provide the fire
20 department?
21 A. We would talk about where we had the gas off, we were also
22 talking about, the police department was with them in their
23 command center, so we was all talking about what was sealed off
24 from the public.
25 Q. Um-hum.

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1 A. I mean, it was constantly just communication back and forth
2 about, you know, where you at at the moment and what status did we
3 have, and, you know, they could come in and they could look at the
4 board on how many leaks we were repairing and stuff like that.
5 Q. Oh, okay. So you had that information on a board?
6 A. We had some things on a board.
7 Q. Right.
8 A. Now, again, this is going back a week ago, more or less, so I
9 think things have changed, potentially, a little bit, I don't know
10 for a fact, but we were there for a while trying to keep things on
11 paper, and on the board, trying to make sure we didn't miss
12 nothing.
13 Q. Okay. Right. Okay. Do you remember which -- you said you
14 were talking to the fire department and police department, was
15 there anybody else?
16 A. Outside the company? No. I think that was the two main
17 people we were talking to because I mentioned the -- we call them
18 MPAs, that's our municipal public affairs group.
19 Q. Sure.
20 A. That's our media reps and stuff.
21 Q. Um-hum.
22 A. So I'm sure they were talking with others.
23 MS. GUNARATNAM: Oh, okay. Great. All right. Turn it over
24 to?
25 DR. JENNER: This is Steve Jenner.

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1 MR. ROSENBERG: Nice to meet you.
2 DR. JENNER: Thank you. Very thorough, so I really don't
3 have any particular question.
4 BY DR. JENNER:
5 Q. Just curious if you've ever been involved in any type of
6 response like this before.
7 A. Like this?
8 Q. Um-hum.
9 A. Never. I mean, I've been involved, very few times, with a
10 situation, I guess you would call, an explosion, but something
11 like this, no, never.
12 Q. Okay. I'm not sure if you mentioned it earlier in your
13 statement, were you aware of the two previous house fires in
14 similar location?
15 A. Became -- the first fire that I knew about was actually the
16 one that came in at 3515, which would have been that Thursday.
17 Q. Right.
18 A. And from the response to that is how we learned -- I learned
19 about the fire that had happened the day before.
20 Q. What involvement did you have with the 3515?
21 A. The 3515, we were at lunch, it came in. The supervisors, and
22 I and Kyle were sitting at a table together when a call come in,
23 and we had went to lunch in two trucks, so I couldn't -- I wanted
24 to send a supervisor to that location, but I had to send two,
25 because we only had two trucks. So that actually ended up being

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1 research.
2 Q. Do you take -- get copies of fire department reports?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q So how did you know what the fire department reported?
5 A. That's what we learned from the employee when we just asked
6 Mr. Michael Robinson.
7 Q. Oh, right, right. Okay. So when you learned about this
8 first house fire, what's -- and now you're responding to the
9 second, what did that information do in terms of your decision
10 making?
11 A. The second fire information was, it was a cooking accident.
12 It was a fire. So it was -- and from whatever -- what we were
13 determining from their results didn't -- it seemed like just two
14 fires.
15 Q. Um-hum. They seemed at the time sort of independent --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. And eventually, more people and resources were sent to
18 the second incident. What --
19 A. After we, I think, had a survey of the area, and there was
20 some -- I believe there was two leaks found in that alley, two
21 grade 2 30s, and I believe there was, in this area, four grade
22 1's, they were all addressed and all repaired. Matter of fact --
23 well, the last one was actually the one they were working on in
[3531 Durango]
24 that alley at 9531, | I believe it was.
25 Q. Okay.

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1 A. Durango.
2 Q. Okay. What were those numbers again? Four grade 1's?
3 A. I believe there was two grade 2 30s in that alley, and then
4 there was two grade 1's on Larga. They were both replace
5 services. I believe there was a grade 1 at 3502 Cortez, again a
6 replace service. And I believe there was a grade 1 at the far end
7 of that alley, between Espanola and Durango, right at Marsh. It
8 was a main leak, if I remember correctly.
9 Q. Okay. How high up the chain of command did your response to
10 the second fire get?
11 A. I report to Kyle, so --
12 Q. Okay. When did your -- what other -- well, what actions did
13 you have to take in response to the second fire?
14 A. We wanted, as I was -- it was explained to me, we wanted all
15 those leaks repaired that were found, and that's what we were
16 doing.
17 Q. Was that your decision or Kyle's decision?
18 A. I can't tell you whose decision that was. I know Kyle told
19 me.
20 Q. Okay. And when did your involvement with that second fire
21 end?
22 A. I don't think -- the explosion happened and they were working
23 at that last leak, which was at, I believe, 9531. [3531 Durango]
24 Q. They were working through the night.
25 A. Yes, sir.

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1 Q. Oh, okay. At 9531? Is that --
2 A. Seems like that's what the address was.
3 Q. Do you happen to know --
4 A. Is that not the right address?
5 MR. TOBIN: It wasn't 9531. That would be the 9000 Block, so
6 it would have to be --
7 MR. ROSENBERG: Oh, 30. Oh. 3531.
8 DR. JENNER: 3531.
9 MR. ROSENBERG: Yeah, thanks.
10 MR. TOBIN: No problem.
11 MR. ROSENBERG: Thank you. You're right. Thank you.
12 BY DR. JENNER:
13 Q. So work was continuing for the second house fire when the
14 third house --
15 A. They were working the leak there in that alley.
16 Q. Got it. Okay. Do you happen to know what resources were --
17 we know -- we spoke to a couple of service technicians who
18 responded initially and worked until just after midnight and then
19 where relieved.
20 A. Um-hum.
21 Q. We don't know much about the relief actions. Do you happen
22 to know who -- how many people were involved in --
23 A. Working the leak repair?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. There was, of course, Mike Rose was there, and there was a

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1 crew there. I believe it was four employees there. I believe
2 there was a crew lead and three crew members.
3 DR. JENNER: Okay. Terrific. Thank you very much.
4 MR. ROSENBERG: You're welcome.
5 MS. GUNARATNAM: Okay.
6 MR. JONES: It's Michael Jones. No questions.
7 MR. ROSENBERG: Thank you, Michael.
8 MS. GUNARATNAM: Phillip?
9 MR. MURDOCK: Yes. Fill in the second. Phillip Murdock,
10 Atmos Energy. I just wanted to clear a couple things up.
11 BY MR. MURDOCK:
12 Q. You said that you continued leak surveys into Friday night
13 and Saturday? Or into Saturday, you were still doing leak
14 surveys?
15 A. I wasn't handling the leak surveys, Phillip. I was actually
16 -- there was leak surveys done Friday night.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. Did they stop or did they continue through the night? I
19 don't know that.
20 Q. Did they do leak surveys on Saturday?
21 A. Yes, sir, they did.
22 Q. So just to clear up, you had said that the gas was turned off
23 in the 8 Block area --
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. -- at 10:23 p.m. on the 23rd, which is Friday night.

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1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. So it's your understanding that, or you know that, Atmos
3 continued leak surveys in other areas that were outside of the
4 evacuation or outside of this 8 Block area.
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Okay. Okay. The crew that was working in the alley
7 overnight Thursday night to repair leaks --
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. -- into early Friday morning, how did they come to be onsite
10 working in that alley Thursday night?
11 A. They were called there. I mean, they were -- had been
12 working on the leak that was at 3519 and then just moved over and
13 started a repair on that next leak.
14 Q. So how were those -- how had those leaks been discovered?
15 Had they been found?
16 A. Those leaks were discovered during a survey of that area, or
17 walking, I believe, is what they were doing.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And doing bar testing.
20 Q. Okay. Okay. Was that in response to the second house fire
21 on the 22nd?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Okay. Okay. So they were doing leak surveys after they
24 learned of the second house fire.
25 A. Yes, sir.

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1 MR. MURDOCK: Okay. All right. Nothing else.
2 MS. GUNARATNAM: Okay. Just to follow-up. We'll do a second
3 round in case some people have follow-up questions.
5 Q. Do you get training on emergency response?
6 A. Absolutely.
7 Q. Could you describe how often, what it involves?
8 A. It's continuous training we get, or we have. There's one
9 aspect is what they call OQ, or operator qualifications, that is
10 training, and you become, in your tasks, or your roles, as the
11 position you're in, you are qualified in whatever applies to your
12 position.
13 Q. Sure.
14 A. There is other training that is periodic as well. We have a,
15 what we call, the Atmos Energy Learning Center. It's Web-based,
16 if you'll call it that, where training is sent out and employees
17 go in and they take the training on many different subjects, and
18 they complete that. There is training from -- that they need to
19 go to at the Plano service -- Plano Technical Training Center, for
20 example, service techs, right now, go through a 5-week gas
21 essentials training, and construction and maintenance has training
22 as well, over several weeks period.
23 So as it applies to their job, they have technical training,
24 which -- there's also on-the-job training, obviously, that
25 continues, and we have weekly safety meetings on -- with rare

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32
1 exceptions, I mean, a holiday or something like that, we have
2 weekly safety meetings that employees attend and we have different
3 subjects during that process.
4 Q. Great. Thank you. So specifically, you've outlined a
5 general training program, but I was curious more on the emergency
6 response. Yeah.
7 A. Okay. Just in the last -- or since -- in the past year, I'll
8 put it that way, we have had employees going through refresher
9 emergency responder training. It's a several hour course that's
10 led by one of our senior service techs. He's actually a DO, as
11 it's called, distribution operator, and he's a certified
12 instructor. And he has information that he shares, and there's
13 videos, and so forth, and it's -- all employees will eventually go
14 through refresher training over a period of time, but we just got
15 through with what we call phase 2, just in February.
16 Q. And is it a yearly, 6 months, every 6 months, like, how --
17 A. The emergency responder, I think it's designed for all
18 employees to go back through, I want to say it's 5 years, if I
19 remember right.
20 Q. Five years.
21 A. Now, OQs and stuff, they periodically got to be --
22 Q. Sure.
23 A. -- re-certified and there's different time frames. It could
24 be annual, it could be 2 year, 3 year, whatever the time is.
25 Q. Right.

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1 A. And there is one OQ that is specifically about emergency
2 response.
3 Q. Okay. And you said all employees, maybe every 5 years, have
4 to do the emergency response.
5 A. The ones that are emergency responders.
6 Q. Oh, right. Emergency responders. Got it.
7 A. For example, meter readers would not -- that would not be the
8 case.
9 Q. Right. Who oversees that training?
10 A. The OQ or --
11 Q. The emergency response training.
12 A. For the refresher?
13 Q. Yeah.
14 A. That's -- who's over it? Well, let me answer it this way,
15 we're responsible, we get a list of names that need to go, and we
16 make sure it happens.
17 Q. Oh, okay.
18 A. We, being the local operations group.
19 Q. Got it. Okay. So who is under your, like, supervision?
20 A. Okay. The construction and maintenance, and we're talking
21 the Dallas area, customer service, meter reading, and there is a
22 group that we called, I guess, they're called field construction
23 coordination.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Might not be the exact name, but that's what it intends.

(410) 974-0947
34
1 Q. And they all report to you.
2 A. They report to the supervisors and the supervisors report to
3 me. There's three in customer service, there's two in
4 construction, there's one in meter reading, I'm talking about
5 supervisor numbers, and there's one in field construction
6 coordination.
7 Q. Okay. And they provide you the list of people who should go
8 to emergency response training.
9 A. No, it's actually provided to us --
10 Q. Oh.
11 A. -- I'm not exactly sure what group provides that to us, but
12 it's provided to us and we make sure it happens.
13 Q. In your Dallas area.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Got it. Okay. So who would go, construction, maintenance,
16 not customer -- who would --
17 A. Customer service would go to it. They're emergency
18 responders.
19 Q. Service would go to it. Emergency response?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Right. Not meter reading and field construction
22 coordination.
23 A. They have that potential, so we would send them too.
24 Q. Okay. Do you, by chance, have a general topics of -- do you
25 know what gets covered in the emergency response training?

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35
1 A. I attended it.
2 Q. Oh, okay.
3 A. I mean, it's, an emergency responder talks about how to, see
4 if I can use the right words, it really talks about how to respond
5 to an emergency and it also talks about, do not, you know, make
6 assumptions. There are -- you have to continually have vigilance,
7 so it's an all-encompassing piece that's in there.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. I'm not doing it justice to tell you everything that's in
10 there, but it's -- I know we spent 4 to 5 hours during the
11 training.
12 Q. Okay. So in the training, does it talk about, or is it in
13 any other training, the distinction between a fire call versus
14 something that you need to go investigate further, or an incident?
15 A. Well, a lot of it has to do with videos that -- from things
16 that have happened in the past --
17 Q. Right.
18 A. -- and how to respond and what could happen or what did
19 happen, and how to prevent scenarios that can become very
20 dangerous.
21 MS. GUNARATNAM: Okay. I'm okay. Steve?
22 DR. JENNER: I have nothing else. Thank you.
23 MR. MURDOCK: Phillip Murdock.
24 BY MR. MURDOCK:
25 Q. Do you do any training or exercises with the Dallas Fire and

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1 Rescue Group?
2 A. What we did recently, Phillip, is with the Dallas Hazmat or
3 Rescue Group, just in the month of February, they have three
4 shifts, they have an A, B, and C shift, under Captain Baker, we
5 were asked for and we met their request that they wanted to have
6 some first responder training, or our emergency response, it
7 wasn't our training. It was just some generalities. We had to
8 share some information. We got to spend about, oh, 4 hours or so
9 with each shift, and we was able to show them how to use a Sensit.
10 And when I say, how to use it, it was very brief. It was only,
11 like, an hour-long presentation that we got from the Sensit Group.
12 That's the Sensit Gold Equipment. I'm sure you all are familiar
13 with it.
14 And during -- at the end of that 3 days, we actually gave the
15 Dallas Fire Department three Sensits. And they seemed very
16 pleased with that interaction with them as far as, they actually
17 got to use the equipment, we took them outside at the Plano
18 training facility, so they got to see part of that. Our

Salvador
19 employees, ___________
Salvatore Sanchez and Sergio Pedraza, actually led the
20 facilitation of it. Again, it's not training, it's just
21 information and sharing.
22 Took them out to the, what they call, gas city and back,
23 where they could actually practice using the Sensit and see if
24 there wasn't a leak or if there was a leak, and see how they
25 operate the unit, so yes, sir.

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1 Q. Have you had any training or courses in our OEM emergency
2 plans?
3 A. I believe there's been some on our AELC.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. And just recently, about incidents and how to, I forget the
6 exact title of what it was, but I believe I took that just in the
7 last couple of months. Yes, sir.
8 MR. MURDOCK: Okay. Okay. That's all I have.
10 Q. Is that a regular thing? The training he was just --
11 mentioned about, OEM?
12 A. They were -- these trainings have a tendency to come back
13 annually --
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. -- but they can be at any time, presented and put out for the
16 employees to go back through.
17 Q. Okay. And is that a requirement to do it annually?
18 A. Yes, ma'am.
19 Q. Okay. OEM.
20 A. Well, it's captured in the system. If you don't attend or
21 you don't do it, or you fail, yep.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. You still got to do it.
24 Q. And how often do you guys work with the -- is this the first
25 time you guys worked with the fire department or share --

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1 information sharing or --
2 A. We've -- not too long ago, we had Assistant Fire Chief Pagent
3 (ph.) out to our office at the Dallas service center and got to
4 spend a little time just talking about things.
5 Q. Okay. Yeah.
6 A. We're doing more and more of that.
7 MS. GUNARATNAM: Okay. Great. Anybody else? Okay. Thank
8 you so much. This has been very helpful. You've given us a lot
9 of good information.
10 MR. ROSENBERG: Well, thank you all.
11 MS. GUNARATNAM: Yeah.
12 (Whereupon, the interview was concluded.)
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

(410) 974-0947
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Investigation of: *
*
NATURAL GAS-FUELED EXPLOSION OF *
RESIDENCE, DALLAS, TEXAS * Accident No.: PLD18FR002
FEBRUARY 23, 2018 *
*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Interview of: BENNY ROSENBERG
Hampton Inn and Suites

Dallas, Texas
Wednesday,
March 7, 2018

(410) 974-0947
2
APPEARANCES:
RAVI CHHATRE, Investigator in Charge

STEPHEN JENNER, Ph.D., Human Performance Investigator

MICHAEL JONES, Accident Investigator

Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration
JOSE CHEVEREZ, Pipeline Inspector

Railroad Commission of Texas - Fort Worth Division
BOBBY BAKER, Captain

Dallas Fire and Rescue, Hazardous Materials Division
JOHN McDILL, Vice-President of Pipeline Safety

Atmos Energy
THOMAS TOBIN, Attorney

Wilson Elser
(On behalf of Benny Rosenberg)

(410) 974-0947
3
I N D E X
ITEM PAGE
Interview of Benny Rosenberg:
By Mr. Chhatre 6
By Dr. Jenner 63
By Mr. Jones 71
By Mr. Cheverez 76
By Mr. McDill 81
By Dr. Jenner 87
By Mr. Cheverez 88
By Mr. Baker 89
By Mr. McDill 90

(410) 974-0947
4
1 I N T E R V I E W
2 MR. CHATTRE: Good morning. Today is Wednesday, March 7,
3 2018. We are currently at the Hampton Inn and Suites located at
4 3015 North Stemmons Freeway in Dallas, Texas. We are meeting
5 regarding the investigation of the explosion of a house located at
6 3534 Espanola Drive in Dallas that occurred on February 23, 2018.
7 My name is Ravi Chhatre. I am with the National
8 Transportation Safety Board located in Washington, D.C. and I am
9 Investigator in Charge of this accident. The NTSB Investigation
10 Number for this accident is PLD18FR002.
11 I would like to start by notifying everyone present in this
12 room that we are recording this interview and we may transcribe it
13 at a later date. Transcripts will be provided directly to the
14 interviewee for correcting any typographical errors. The
15 transcripts may be posted in NTSB's public docket.
16 Also, I would like to inform Mr. Benny Rosenberg that you are
17 permitted to have one other person present with you during the
18 interview. This is a person of your choice, your supervisor,
19 friend, family member, of if you choose, no one at all.
20 Please state for the record your full name, spelling of your
21 name, organization you work for, and your title, business contact
22 information, such as mailing address, email, and whom you have
23 chosen to be present with you during your interview.
24 MR. ROSENBERG: My name is Benny Rosenberg, spelled B-E-N-N-
25 Y, last name, R-O-S-E-N-B-E-R-G. I work for Atmos Energy. I am

(410) 974-0947
5
1 an Operations Manager in the Dallas organization. Mr. Thomas
2 Tobin would like to be in the room with me. And is there anything
3 else I need to add to that?
4 MR. CHHATRE: No. Your contact information.
5 MR. ROSENBERG: My contact information? Office or home would
6 be better?
7 MR. CHHATRE: Business, everything business.
8 MR. ROSENBERG: Business? It is 2601 Logan Street, L-O-G-A-
9 N, S-T-R-E-E-T, Dallas, Texas 75215. And that's Atmos Energy.
10 MR. CHATTRE: Thank you very much for that. Now, you said
11 Mr. --
12 MR. ROSENBERG: Tobin?
13 MR. CHATTRE: Tobin would like to be here. That's not the
14 question. Either you want him here or not. But, if you don't, no
15 problem at all.
16 MR. ROSENBERG: Yes. The answer is yes, sir.
17 MR. CHATTRE: I just want to be sure. Now, I would like to
18 go around and have each person introduce themselves. Please state
19 your name, spelling of your name, your title, and organization
20 that you represent, and your business contact information,
21 starting from my right.
22 DR. JENNER: Stephen Jenner, S-T-E-P-H-E-N, J-E-N-N-E-R, I'm
23 a human performance investigator with the NTSB.
24 MR. JONES: Michael Jones, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, J-O-N-E-S. I am an
25 accident investigator with the PHMSA Accident Investigation

(410) 974-0947
7
1 Junior College here locally. And after that, all training has
2 been through the different companies which was Lone Star Gas, TXU
3 Gas, and Atmos Energy.
4 (Off the record.)
5 (On the record.)
6 BY MR. CHHATRE:
7 Q. So tell me, your current title is?
8 A. Operations manager.
9 Q. And how long have you been in that position?
10 A. I've been in that position, I believe, since we became Atmos
11 Energy, which was in 2004. And I should correct that it was
12 probably called something different. I mean, it's -- titles have
13 changed over time. So I've been in that role for -- as operations
14 manager, probably more closer to 2008. Dallas -- maybe that's the
15 way to answer that.
16 Q. Okay. So it's not an OQ position?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. And what are your normal working hours?
19 A. Normal working hours? We would say from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m.
20 Q. 8 a.m. to 5 p.m., Monday through Friday?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Are you on call?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. And how often?
25 A. I would tell you, I could get calls 7 days a week.

(410) 974-0947
8
1 Q. You're always on call?
2 A. That's a potential. Yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. But it's not design, it's just as-needed.
5 Q. So you're on call as needed then?
6 A. Well, in other words, if I'm needed, they call me. It's
7 basically 24-hours, 7 days a week, I'll be on call. Yes.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. I just don't want you to think I get a call and I'm
10 constantly at work. No. That's not the case.
11 Q. So tell me your duties as an Operations Manager. What do you
12 do?
13 A. I oversee several departments within Operations. There's
14 meter reading. There is customer service. There is construction
15 and maintenance and there is a, for lack of a better word, a
16 construction coordination, field construction coordination group.
17 It kind of fits in with the construction and maintenance.
18 Q. Okay. And you supervise all those four?
19 A. I have supervisors who report to me who have duties in those
20 areas.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. There is a supervisor for meter reading. There are three
23 customer service supervisors, and there are two construction
24 supervisors, and there is a supervisor over that field
25 construction group as well. So that's seven supervisors.

(410) 974-0947
9
1 Q. And how many on the meter reading?
2 A. How many in meter reading, as far as employees?
3 Q. No. Supervisors.
4 A. One. I'm sorry.
5 Q. So one in meter reading and three in customer service, two in
6 construction maintenance, and one field construction?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. And that's the Dallas organization.
10 Q. Okay. So tell me -- just describe for me how the structure
11 works. Now, I know you as a manager, you had three supervisors
12 which flows down.
13 A. I don't understand your question.
14 Q. Okay. I'm just trying to get an idea about the org chart, if
15 you would.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Who the, I guess lowest employee?
18 A. Names, I think that's what you're looking for?
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. There's Michael Green, who is the supervisor over the meter
21 reading group. There is Juan Gomez, who is one of the supervisors
22 over the customer service group. There is Salvador Sanchez, who
23 is also a customer service supervisor.
24 There is Steven Cox, who is also a customer service
25 supervisor. And we call him operations supervisor, actually. In

(410) 974-0947
10
1 construction and maintenance, there is Mike Rose, Jr. and there is
2 Brice Cassell. And then over the field construction group, that
3 would be Monica Davidson.
4 Q. Okay. And typically, how many people report to Mr. Gomez or
5 Sanchez?
6 A. You could use an average of about 20.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. It varies between them, obviously. But that's, I would say,
9 a good average.
10 Q. Around 20? Okay. And those people, what are their titles?
11 A. Operations supervisor.
12 Q. No. The people reporting to them.
13 A. Oh, to them? In meter reading, they're called meter reader 1
14 or 2. And they have a meter reading coordinator as well. In
15 customer service, there is service technician one.
16 There is a service technician 2. There is a senior service
17 technician. They also have a, what we call a DO, which is a
18 Distribution Operator, and an OA, which is an Operations
19 Assistant.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. In construction, there is a construction operator one. There
22 is a construction operator 2. There is a senior construction
23 operator and there is a crew lead. They also have -- in one of
24 those organizations, there's an OA or an Operations Assistant as
25 well. In the field construction group, they are what they call

(410) 974-0947
11
1 field construction coordinators.
2 You'll hear them called FCC for short. There is a
3 Senior Field Construction Coordinator. In that organization,

operators
4 there is also a couple of construction ___________________
operator members. And
5 there's also welders in that group, and an OA
6 Q. Now we heard that some surveyors, who do the surveying -- do
7 they fall under your jurisdiction?
8 A. They actually -- they fall under Tommy Looney and he reports
9 to Kyle Slaughter.
10 Q. And what is Mr. Looney's title?
11 A. It's compliance supervisor.
12 Q. Okay. So just tell me a little bit more on this. Service
13 technicians 1, 2, senior tech, what are their duties?
14 A. Service Technicians are -- they turn on gas. They turn off
15 gas. They do leak investigations, any kind of what we call
16 customer priority orders, where a customer has a billing question,
17 or they need to verify a reading.
18 They're basically around the customer's needs or on their
19 property. But they also do emergency leak investigations. It
20 could be a call for carbon monoxide or a fire call, or anything
21 like that. That’s part of their duties.
22 Q. Okay. Doing those duties, are they trained to do any testing
23 for gas odor or they are not?
24 A. For testing of gas, like in a piping system or --
25 Q. No. More like if somebody complains that they are smelling

(410) 974-0947
12
1 the gas, are these people trained to go and investigate?
2 A. Yes, sir. They are. They are trained. We have several ways
3 that they're trained. The main thing is their OQ or operator
4 qualifications. Their tasks are identified, and they have -- I'll
5 use the number around 20, but that's not an exact number, of
6 different tasks that they can be OQ qualified, as their career
7 progresses.
8 And they actually go to -- they take training, either at the

Vaughan
9 Charles K. _____
Bond Center in Plano. For example, right now there's a
10 5-week, basic gas essentials training where they start to learn
11 their work. And they take OQs and pass tests and become
12 qualified.
13 There are other types of training. They actually take
14 training with other employees, what we call on-the-job training,
15 usually a more senior service technician. Then, there's also
16 training that they can do within the, what we call the Atmos
17 Energy Learning Center.
18 There's courses in there that they can take. And there's
19 also courses that come out monthly and that you're required to
20 take and there's different pieces. But, back to your question,
21 yes, they are trained and it's in the OQ and on-the-job, and plus,
22 there's ride-outs by the supervisor as well.
23 Q. So how does the progression go, from tech 1, tech 2, senior
24 tech and distribution, I guess, operator? Is that the hierarchy
25 in that progression?

(410) 974-0947
13
1 A. Yes. It's service tech 1, the service tech 2, to senior
2 service tech. A DO, as we call it, usually we try to have that
3 person have both service and construction work. So, over their
4 career, they've actually got training in both.
5 Most of the DOs that we have in Dallas, stay closer to the
6 service. But we will use them in construction when we need to.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. And they're OQ'd in those tasks.

odor
9 Q. Both tasks? So if an _____
oral call comes, do you typically send
10 service tech 1, or service tech 2, or what is the protocol?
11 A. It will depend on their skillsets. Again, it's back to the
12 OQs. And that's -- skillsets are put into our customer service
13 system. So you've got to have certain skillsets to be able to
14 receive certain types of orders. So you can't just give a leak
15 investigation to a brand-new employee, per se.
16 Q. So if I make a phone call saying, I smell gas in my yard, not
17 inside the house, who will you send?
18 A. We will send somebody who's qualified. It could be a service
19 tech 2, customer service tech 2, or it could be a senior service
20 tech.
21 Q. But you would not send service tech one? That's what I'm
22 trying to get at.
23 A. They shouldn't. And the only way they could is if they were
24 still in that position and had the OQ qualifications. But that
25 would not be normal. And I don't think that would happen.

(410) 974-0947
14
1 Usually, service tech 2's, part of their requirements to have that
2 position is to be OQ'd to be able to perform in --
3 Q. In simple words, what is it a service tech one can do? I
4 mean, just give me a couple of examples.
5 A. Of course, obviously, they can verify reads. They can turn
6 off gas. As they progress, they may be able to get to a point
7 where they can actually turn on gas.
8 Q. Okay. But, right now, they only really typically turn off
9 the gas. That is when the customer leaves or --
10 A. Yes. When they leave, they can turn it off, and seal the
11 meter.
12 Q. So I'm just going to go back on February 21st, 22nd, and
13 23rd.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. For lack of a better word, we're going to call them events or
16 accidents, whatever you need to call it.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Were you involved in the 21st event?
19 A. I did not learn about the 21st event until the 22nd.
20 Q. So you really have no knowledge. So tell me what you learned
21 on the 22nd?
22 A. What we learned on the 22nd is kind of a little bit of a long
23 story, so I apologize for that upfront. But we were at lunch.
24 There was seven of us and we got a call. Actually, one of the
25 supervisors got a call from a technician, I believe out in the

(410) 974-0947
15
1 field there at Durango, I think at 3515. And it was a call about
2 a fire at a house. And the technician, when they were there,
3 noticed a second house had had a fire.
4 And that's when I had learned about the second, that fire
5 that had happened the day before. From there, of course, we did
6 some investigation when we got back to the office and learned that
7 the day before there had been a fire and that a technician had
8 responded.
9 And it was a fire that the fire department said it was gas in
10 the house piping, or a leak in the house piping. And that's --
11 when the technician actually tried to do a test, I don't even
12 think he could do a test. I think it there was too much
13 destruction.
14 Q. So you learned on the 22nd. Now, tell me the information
15 flow. If you get a gas call, fire call, dispatch dispatches how?
16 Automatically?
17 A. If they get a fire call they --
18 Q. Or a gas call. I mean, any call or any serious call, other
19 just the on and off gas.
20 A. Dispatches that call, creates an order, dispatches that call
21 to the --
22 Q. And then does dispatch tell that person's supervisor that
23 this person has been dispatched?
24 A. Not necessarily. No. Not on a -- I mean, it could be any
25 type of emergency. But that would not be a normal thing that they

(410) 974-0947
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1 would do.
2 Q. It is not a standard operating practice?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. So there could be a fire, a technician id dispatched, but the
5 supervisor may not know?
6 A. It's possible. Yes, sir. I mean, it --
7 Q. I mean, in standard operating practice, it should not happen.
8 Right?
9 A. It doesn't normally happen. No, sir.
10 Q. Now, if a supervisor learns about a fire -- now, is a
11 supervisor expected to report back to you or he is not expected?
12 Again, what are the standard operating factors?
13 A. I would say, if there's a fire and it's like this one where
14 there is no gas leak, there's nothing there that's on measured --
15 I mean, it's all measure gas. It's not unmeasured gas and there's
16 --
17 Q. I'm sorry. What is the term you use?
18 A. Measured or --
19 Q. Measured gas?
20 A. Measured gas is after the gas has gone through the meter.
side
21 Q. ______
Okay. So customer-sized?
22 A. Yes. Yes, sir. Of course, unmeasured is our side.
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. But, no. That would not be always a -- I would love to know
25 it. Yes. But it's not an automatic, I wouldn't say.

(410) 974-0947
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1 Q. I'm sorry. I'm lost. On the 22nd, there was a call.
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. And the technician was, I guess, dispatched.
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. And that is when, through what I understand, correct me if
6 I'm wrong, that -- who told you about the fire on the 21st? You
7 said you learned about the fire of the 21st on the 22nd.
8 A. The technician who initially reported to the fire on the
9 22nd, noticed the fire the next couple of houses down.
10 Q. He noticed? So who was the supervisor of this technician who
11 was dispatched on the 22nd?
12 A. It was -- Juan Cruz is the technician. And Juan either
13 reports to Salvador or to Juan. I believe he --
14 Q. Salvador or who?
15 A. Salvador Sanchez.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Or Juan Gomez.
18 Q. Juan Gomez?
19 A. And I believe, while we were sitting there having lunch,
20 Juan, I think, got the call and --
21 Q. Mr. Gomez got the call?
22 A. He got a call from, I believe, the technician. Mr. Sanchez
23 got a call from dispatch.
24 Q. So Mr. Sanchez reported to Mr. Gomez?
25 A. No, sir. They both report to me. They're both supervisors.

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1 pulling records. And that's how we'd learned about the fire
2 before.
3 Q. So they went on their own or you dispatched them?
4 A. You could say I sent them. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Okay. And do you remember what passed in your mind, why you
6 would send them?
7 A. Well, really, I would've only sent one.
8 Q. No. I understand. I mean, just the one.
9 A. But the reason there, a couple of fires, it seems a little
10 unusual. Because they're reporting a fire next door and I don’t
11 know about the other one. So I think it was the right thing to do
12 to support the employee and put somebody on the scene that was
13 from management.
14 Q. Okay. Now, do you know what the technician told Mr. Gomez
15 about that second fire call?
16 A. I don't because they were on the phone together and I don't
17 know exactly what he told him. No.
18 Q. So Gomez shared that information with you since you were
19 there, or he did not?
20 A. Yes. We were all there and he was trying to convey that to
21 us.
22 Q. So what did Mr. Gomez tell you on that fire?
23 A. I think he just simply said we've got a technician at a fire,
24 but there seems to be another one that's happened a couple of
25 houses down.

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1 Q. Okay. So Mr. Gomez knew about the fire a day before?
2 A. No, sir. No. No. No. No.
3 Q. But you said, another one in the same location. You said
4 Gomez said, oh, you have another one at the same location.
5 A. Mr. Gomez and Mr. Salvador left lunch and went to that
6 location. And they got their information from the technician on
7 the 23rd. They did not know about the leak on the -- oh, excuse
8 me, the 22nd, not on the 21st. None of us knew about the fire on
9 the 21st.
10 Q. Okay. Now when Mr. Gomez got the call from the technician
11 about the fire, my question is what did Mr. Gomez convey to you.
12 And I thought you said, he said there was another fire. That's
13 why I'm asking you.
14 A. He said there was a -- the technician went to a fire call.
15 There's no -- it's reported as a fire, a cooking fire.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. And there's no natural gas involved, per se. But he did
18 notice something down the alley. And so, he called Juan to let
19 him know that. And Juan was conveying that to me on the 22nd.
20 Q. Okay. And Juan is Mr. Gomez. Right?
21 A. Yes, sir. That's right.
22 Q. I just want to make sure I attach right first names to right
23 last names.
24 A. I fully understand. Please.
25 Q. So during that day, what happened? Did anybody, afterwards,

(410) 974-0947
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1 follow and was keeping you informed, Mr. Gomez or Mr. Sanchez, on
2 that day?
3 A. They went to the scene and they stayed there through the day,
4 bar testing, and ended up, during the bar test, finding a couple
5 more leaks.
6 Q. All right. But, what was going on? Were you kept in the
7 communication loop?
8 A. Yes. They would call me. Yes.
9 Q. Do you remember what happened on that day, like often they
10 called you or what information they gave you?
11 A. I can't tell you how often they called me. I just know we
12 stayed in communication as different aspects were found. They
13 told me about a couple of Grade 2's which, of course, I conveyed
14 to who I report to, which is Mr. Slaughter.
15 Q. Who?
16 A. Mr. Slaughter, Kyle Slaughter, that's who I report to.
17 Q. Can you spell it for me?
18 A. K-Y-L-E, S-L-A-U-G-H-T-E-R.
19 Q. Okay. And his title is Director?
20 A. Yes, sir. Director of operations.
21 MR. TOBIN: He's the next witness.
22 BY MR. CHHATRE:
23 Q. Yes. Very good. I just want to make sure my names and
24 everything is matching. Okay. But you don't recall what
25 information was conveyed? Forget about when and how often, but do

(410) 974-0947
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1 you remember anything about -- it's 19 days afterwards, but do you
2 remember what was conveyed to you?
3 A. Exact wording? No.
4 Q. No. Just --
5 A. But, in general, they bar tested and they found a couple of
6 leaks, Grade 2, 30s. One was at 3519 and I believe the other one
7 was at 3531.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. That's Durango.
10 Q. The fire was at 3515.
11 A. The one that we reported to on the 22nd? Yes, sir.
12 Q. And did they say anything about 3515?
13 A. Simply that it was a cooking fire.
14 Q. So there was no leak?
15 A. And there was no leak.
16 Q. Now tell me, what is this grading? How do you classify these
17 grades? I mean, I've heard Grade 1, Grade 2-35, I mean, 25. They
18 do 30 days and Grade 2, 80 days. Just educate me.
19 A. Okay. Grade one is the grade that is an immediate hazard and
20 needs to be repaired immediately and/or you need to take
21 continuous action until the hazard has been eliminated. That's a
22 grade one.
23 Q. So what constitutes immediate attention? And do you mean
24 that for people or for property?
25 A. Both, either/or. You know, depending on the migration or the

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1 amount of gas and where it's migrated to, the extent of paving or
2 the buildings nearby, all those things are part of that
3 investigator's process to determine is there immediate hazard. I
4 can give you an example that would --
5 Q. I'm saying, if a technician goes there, does he or she have
6 clear cut guidelines that if this happens, this happens, this
7 happens, all these are -- you are a grade one, or is it all
8 subjective based on the person's experience?
9 A. The person's experience plays a part of that, obviously.
10 It's in their determination, is it an immediate hazard. You can
11 have gas that's migrated into or under a building. That's an
12 example of a Grade 1.
13 Q. So gas under the building?
14 A. Yes, sir. You can have gas that's migrating up to the wall
15 of a building. That's considered Grade 1.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. You can have gas, escaping gas, that has ignited. That is a
18 grade one. You can have gas that, if can be heard or felt or seen
19 and it has the probability of being a hazard to the public or to
20 property, that's a grade one. Those are all examples and there's
21 more.
22 Q. And they are given in the operating procedures for the
23 technician to follow?
24 A. It's in the procedure. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Okay. And what is Grade 2?

(410) 974-0947
25
1 A. Grade 2 is -- to start with, it's not a hazard, but could
2 become a hazard. But, within that, the technician has the ability
3 to determine repair schedule. And that's where the 5-day, 30-day
4 and the 180-day comes into -- it sets up the probability of maybe
5 becoming a hazard.
6 So if you want to get it repaired quicker, the investigator
7 can say 5-day or 30-day or 180. That's what a Grade 2, 5-day, 30-
8 day, 180 really means. It's a leak that's not a hazard but could
9 become a hazard. And based upon what the technician has reviewed,
10 trying to set the repair schedule appropriately.
11 Q. Again, can you give me examples of -- in your document, I
12 mean, protocol?
13 A. There are examples.
14 Q. What about those for Grade 2, generally? I'm really just
15 interested in Grade 2-5.
16 A. Well, they don't have it as what's an example of Grade 2-5 or
17 Grade 2-30 or Grade 2-180. They're just examples of Grade 2. And
18 the investigator has the ability to adjust the repair schedule.
19 So, an example of a Grade 2? A Grade 2 could be a leak where we
20 have 4 percent or greater in a confined space.
21 Q. Like a room?
22 A. A manhole.
23 Q. A manhole? Okay.
24 A. You could have another type of Grade 2 leak to be --
25 Q. So would that be like 80 or 90 percent LEL, 4 percent?

(410) 974-0947
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1 A. Four percent gas, I convert it to 80 percent LEL. Yes, sir.
2 A leak that's in a -- I think, again, it's 4 percent gas, in a,
3 what we call a small substructure, which could be in an electric
4 or a telephone conduit, where gas could be migrating toward a
5 building.
6 That can be considered a Grade 2. I believe -- let's see, we
7 talked about confined space. We talked about electrical conduit.
8 There's something I'm forgetting here.
9 Q. Well, if it comes back to you, tell me. It is in your
10 procedures, so --
11 A. And there is a list and it's in the procedure manual. Yes,
12 sir. That's right.
13 Q. Now, this operator or technician or whatever the title is, is
14 he or she given guidelines as to what should be a 30-day, what
15 should be 60-day or 5-day? And I'm saying how do they find some
16 type of guideline?
17 A. It may be in the OQ, but I don't know of that to be a fact.
18 I don't.
19 Q. Okay. Now, are they trained to understand that gas can
20 migrate?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Okay. So what do they do to make sure it is not migrating?
23 I mean, if you're at almost 80 percent LEL in a box, what is the
24 technician then expected to do next to make sure it is, indeed, a
25 Grade 2 and not a Grade 1?

(410) 974-0947
27
1 A. One of the things we mentioned is with migration, of course,
2 you bar test. And you probe, or you drill, and you put holes in
3 the ground, if you will.
4 And the idea is, you really can't grade a leak unless you
5 know the full migration of the gas. And that's in a 360-degree
6 circle from what you believe to be the source of the leak.
7 Q. Okay. And how far are they supposed to keep doing the bar
8 hole?
9 A. Until you get to zero percent.
10 Q. Just one zero is enough or you have to have a following few
11 zeros?
12 A. Well, it just says to zero in the procedure.
13 Q. Just one zero?
14 A. That's what it says. And that's -- and you're talking about
15 in a 360-degree circle.
16 Q. So any leak they go to, before they classify it, is Grade 2.
17 They have to do the bar hole all around it, 360?
18 A. They need to know where the gas is migrating to. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Now, what happens if the conditions outside are that they
20 cannot bar hole, like concrete, for example or it's raining? It's
21 coming down cats and dogs.
22 A. There are -- well, one, for paving, they do have drills.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. So they can get a hole into the pavement.
25 Q. That inspector can do that?

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1 A. Yes, sir. Any available openings, to be quite honest,
2 whether it be a manhole or a sewer manhole, or anything that
3 opens. But they also have the ability to put a hole in a paving.
4 As far as wet conditions, we do have some procedures that talk
5 about wet conditions.
6 And they talk about you have to put additional bar holes
7 until you find where you can either see vapors coming out or you
8 can see bubbles. Or even, if you have enough bar holes where you
Sensit
9 can -- they have what they call a __________
sense-it, where they can survey
10 above the bar holes and see if they get readings. So they have
11 ways to be able to try to overcome either pavement or adverse
12 conditions.
13 Q. But again, my question still remains the same. If they
14 cannot get reasonably good readings at a Grade 2 leak, what are
15 they given as a guide? What are they supposed to do?
16 A. I think they would then need to call their supervisor at that
17 point and ask for assistance.
18 Q. But does the system tell them -- does the procedure tell
19 them?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Calling the supervisor is one. But then, I guess my question
22 is then, what your supervisors are supposed to do at that time.
23 A. There's different options to them. They're going to, if
24 necessary, try to overcome the situations. It may be digging, to
25 alleviate the problem with whatever is the issue to the service

(410) 974-0947
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1 technician. For example, paving -- you may need to make a -- you
2 may need a bigger jackhammer or something to be able to --
3 Q. But I think my main focus is really, on a rainy day, a watery
4 day, when your instrument is not going to work. Right? That's
5 what I'm looking at. It's raining and water's getting into the
6 hole, you're not going to get good readings.
7 So, my question is, literally, the technicians -- before he
8 or she can classify Grade 2, they need to know something about the
9 gas. What are the options?
10 A. One of the things they can do is they can call for a leak
11 survey or a leak surveyor. That would be Tommy Looney's group,
12 the compliance piece. And they have some other equipment that
13 might be able to assist us in trying to determine where the leak
14 may be and where the leak is migrating to. Yes, sir.
15 Q. But, from what I understand, that instrument only says the
16 presence of gas. It cannot tell the concentration of gas. So --
17 A. Agreed.
18 Q. So my question is, if you have 4 percent or 80 percent LEL in

[?]
19 | and I don't know your guidelines there are,
-- if it's my bidding,
20 let's say, 50 feet from the home or 100 feet from the home. But
21 how would a person know in bad weather it's really not, indeed,
22 Grade 1, because it is going to a nearby structure?
23 And I'm just asking. I'm not saying it happened some other
24 time. I'm just trying to find out what does the company have as
25 an option. In that case, what is a technician supposed to do to

(410) 974-0947
30
1 give a good confidence to him or her that they are not reaching
2 the wrong decision?
3 A. Well, I think the only answer I give you is they call the
4 supervisor and the supervisor comes and helps to try to make
5 determinations on what they can or cannot do. And I don't have an
6 exact answer for you.
7 Q. Okay. That is fine. That is reasonable. But then, the
8 supervisors cannot make that machine work.
9 A. That's exactly right.
10 Q. You know, you can call all 10 supervisors if you want, but I
11 don't think they can do it. So --
12 A. I agree.
13 Q. But there is no guideline that says, in that case, it should
14 be fixed immediately?
15 A. They cannot -- yes. Grade 2, they can't -- they don't grade
16 until they know where they're at. And they can call it a Grade 1
17 and go ahead and repair it. Yes, sir.
18 Q. So they cannot call it a Grade 1. They cannot fix it and
19 they do not know if it's Grade 2. So I'm trying figure out what
20 options are there in that rainy condition.
21 A. If we cannot get to a point to where we cannot determine,
22 we're going to call it a Grade 1 and we're going to try to --
23 Q. You are going to call it Grade 1?
24 A. I think that's exactly what they will do.
25 Q. And that's in procedures? That's in documentation?

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1 Understood.
2 A. It says you will call the supervisor and they will help make
3 that determination.
4 Q. I guess in your procedural thing, it doesn't say that if you
5 cannot confirm Grade 2, then treat it as Grade 1?
6 A. I don't think it says it that way. But it says if it's
7 determined not to be a hazard. So if you can't determine it's not
8 a hazard, you have to determine it is a hazard.
9 Q. And the other thing you mentioned was that you said, if there
10 is -- and if the gas is ignited. Then that's automatically --
11 A. Yes, sir. It says escaping gas is a Grade 1, if it's
12 ignited.
13 Q. Grade 1? Right. So I guess, like earlier you mentioned this
14 house was a kitchen fire.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Would your technician rely strictly on the fire department to
17 tell that or do they make sure that, indeed, it is a kitchen fire
18 and not a gas fire? In other words that the gas "ignited", if you
19 hear what I'm saying?
20 A. They would still do their checks. They would talk to the
21 fire department. They would still do their -- check the house
22 piping, see if it holds a test or not. They would still bar test.
in --
23 They would do their ____
in-full investigation.
24 They would put a bar hole at the main, over the main, and at
25 the riser. They would make sure that there was no gas that was

(410) 974-0947
32
1 from the unmeasured side getting toward the house.
2 Q. Okay. So they are required or expected that if they don't --
3 they are expected for a gas call to -- like a kitchen fire, before
4 they call it -- what is it? Meter? What is that term you use,
5 metered gas or numbered?
6 A. Measured gas.
7 Q. Measured gas.
8 A. There you go.
9 Q. I'm sorry. Measured gas.
10 A. Make sure there's no leak in the house or if there is a leak
11 in the house, seal the meter. Yes, sir.
12 Q. But are they expected to do all that, in a fire?
13 A. That's part of their investigation. I mean, there's -- you
14 want to make sure you leave the area safe. And that's what they
15 would do, is do a house piping test. That's what we call it. And
16 make sure that it is not leaking.
17 Q. Okay. Now in the first case, and I know you didn't know
18 about it until the next day, do you know if the supervisor asked
19 these questions and made sure the technician did all that? Like,
20 on the first call?
21 A. I can't tell you what that supervisor might have asked that
22 employee.
23 Q. But is he expected to ask that when it's a fire?
24 A. I would think they would want to ask what do you know, what
25 did you learn, what was the situation. Because I do know that

(410) 974-0947
34
1 make sure. I want to double-check that. Okay. Now, I realize --
2 I think the point's well taken that you thought those two is
3 unusual. Now, in terms of gas leaks, if you see several readings
4 nearby, are those unusual? Maybe Grade 2 or maybe 3, they are not
5 unusual?
6 A. I mean, when you're doing an investigation, you might find
7 nothing at the house that had got the order. But you still do
8 your investigation. That doesn't mean you wouldn't find,
9 potentially, a leak somewhere on the main. That's why you do your
10 full investigations.
11 Q. No. I'm saying, if the odor call comes from, let's just say
12 for lack of any other address, let's say it's an alley. In that
13 neighborhood, the odor call comes and there are three or four odor
14 calls in that nearby area, would that be usual, unusual, or kind
15 of normal for that neighborhood? I mean, any neighborhood.
16 A. I mean, I'd be guessing a little bit, but I'd say that's --
17 to say it's uncommon or unusual, that's possible. But I wouldn't
18 necessarily say yes, that it is. Because, for example, you could
19 have a lot of construction activity in an area. And having cut
20 lines in an area would not be an unusual thing. So that --
21 Q. Let me rephrase it. From a residential area, getting two or
22 four calls, and I'm willing to say -- let's just say 3 days or 4
23 days or even a week, is that normal operation for you or it's
24 still unusual?
25 A. I don't think you -- I think that'd be more on the unusual

(410) 974-0947
35
1 side.
2 Q. Unusual? Okay.
3 A. Yes. That's be my opinion.
4 Q. Okay. Now, at what situation you consider is dangerous to
5 stop the gas, just stop the main?
6 A. Well, I think it goes back to -- we call it HELP. It's an
7 acronym for -- it's HELP. It stands for hazard, extent of hazard.
8 Really, it's determine hazard, extent of hazard, protect life,
9 protect property. So you use that as a guide to help you
10 determining if there's a danger.
11 Q. Okay. And can you make that decision at your level or you
12 have to go up to make that decision?
13 A. No, sir. Every employee has that opportunity to determine a
14 hazard.
15 Q. No. I mean to turn the gas off.
16 A. If an employee thought he needed to turn the gas off, he'd
17 turn it off. And you maybe be talking -- I'm talking about a
18 service. The main?
19 Q. No. I'm talking about the neighborhood.
20 A. The neighborhood.
21 Q. I mean, there are three or four gas calls in that
22 neighborhood. Obviously, it's unusual.
23 A. They would normally call a supervisor and there would be no
24 question in anybody's mind if they thought they needed to turn off
25 the gas flow to a main, that they couldn't do that. We would be

(410) 974-0947
36
1 on the safe side. We would not wait for somebody in upper
2 management to tell us, per se.
3 Q. So you are saying, the technician, if he feels that there's
4 fire there, the technician can go and turn the whole neighborhood
5 off?
6 A. I would tell you he would probably make a phone call to his
7 supervisor. And I think between the two of them, they would say
8 turn the gas off.
9 Q. So a supervisor can make that decision, like in this case,
10 Mr. Gomez or Mr. Sanchez?
11 A. If they thought that it was necessary, I believe they could.
12 Yes, sir.
13 Q. They don't need your approval for that?
14 A. I would hope not. I mean, we're talking safety. We're
15 talking about protecting life. And that's -- if you're trying to
16 protect life and property, just calling people up the line is
17 wasting time.
18 Q. I understand. But I'm asking this, in this case it didn't
19 happen. It did not happen in this case. Right?
20 A. They did not.
21 Q. Turn the gas off for the entire neighborhood. I mean, there
22 was one fire, a second fire, while they are looking at it, there
23 are two Grade 2 leaks. So that is not --
24 A. They didn't see a danger.
25 MR. TOBIN: Wait for the question, if you would?

(410) 974-0947
37
1 BY MR. CHHATRE:
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. They didn't see a danger with what they were working with.
4 They had two Grade 2-30s and that's what they were dealing with.
5 And they did not see a time to go turn the gas off. No, sir.
6 Q. Okay. Now, do you keep track -- you, meaning the company,
7 keep track of how many they do where the leaks are in either
8 district -- and I do not know, district, neighborhood, how so ever
9 you classify?
10 Because you generate a ticket, that guy comes in -- do you
11 keep track as to, okay, in this neighborhood there are 30 Grade 2
12 leaks? I mean, Grade 2-30-day leaks and Grade 2-5-day or Grade 2-
13 180-day -- is there some kind of tabulation of that compilation or
14 analysis?
15 A. There's tabulation or there's a program, if you will, that
16 tracks our leaks. It's what we call CM-Plus. And you can look in
17 there at any point in time and you can see things. I think
18 there's an annual report that's put together that's forwarded in,
19 that's done normally by a different group. But still, your
20 question about just in a neighborhood.
21 Q. No. I want to know what your separation is. I mean, I do
22 not know how you matrix your area. But the data is coming in from
23 the dispatch. I mean, you know what's happening in your service
24 territory. My question is, what happens to that information?
25 Does anybody at any level look at the data and say, hey, I

(410) 974-0947
38
1 have 300 Grade 2-5-day leaks in this neighborhood? Let me look
2 for the -- I mean, does anybody look into this data as to how many
3 leaks are there coming in? How often?
4 What the frequency is, what the grades are -- is there some
5 kind of procedure that you, at a much higher level, are expected
6 to do that, to provide guidance to your people? Or anybody, maybe
7 people around you? I'm just trying to find out.
8 A. There may be. I just don't know, to answer your question.
9 Q. Have you ever done that in the area that you are responsible
10 for?
11 A. No, sir. I don't believe I have.
12 Q. So do you know what happens to the data that comes in after
13 the technician punches in that information and it goes back to the
14 system? What happens to that information?
15 A. Well there's two systems you're talking about. The
16 technician goes back into our customer service information system.
17 And then, the leak order is put into CM-Plus. There's two
18 different systems.
19 Q. Maybe I didn't ask the right question. The technician is
20 dispatched. The technician goes in and says, okay, it's on --
21 I'll use my term, the regulatory, you know, your side of the line
22 and not the customer's side. And they detected a leak at the
23 meter riser. This is strictly an example.
24 And they do the repair or change the service line or whatever
25 they need to do, they do. Because they're required now, from what

(410) 974-0947
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1 you tell me, check the main. And they generate that data. And
2 before they leave the location, they fill some kind of a form,
3 from that I understand, on their computer or unit. Right?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. And they push the send button and then they leave. What
6 happens to that information and where it goes? Does it go back to
7 dispatch or where does it go?
8 A. It goes into our customer service information. And that's
9 the best answer I can give you is it goes back into our system and
10 it's captured, about what the technician.
11 Q. But what happens to the captured information? Is the
12 supervisor, at the end of the day, end of the week, is required to
13 look at that? You, as a higher up, is required to look at your
14 territory or --
15 A. Okay. Emergency orders are reviewed the next business day by
16 a supervisor. That's all emergency orders. They are reviewed by
17 a supervisor and to make sure that it looks like things have been
18 done properly by procedure. Is there something missing? It is
19 reviewed by the next work day by the supervisor.
20 Q. Okay. But, and again, as you maintain, things go wrong.
21 Supervisor is, okay, everything was done right. But again, the
22 data is there and does anybody look at that data later on? The
23 supervisor looks at it and says, yes, his response was okay. But
24 who is keeping track of what is happening in the are that you are
25 providing gas to people? Does anybody in the company know that,

(410) 974-0947
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1 hey look, in this neighborhood, I'm getting one too many Grade 2
2 calls or I'm getting too many Grade 1 calls. Here are my
3 statistics. Does anybody do that to ensure the integrity of your
4 system?
5 A. I think there's a group that does that.
6 Q. Do you know what that group is?
7 A. The system integrity group, but -- because I know we do
8 review some things with our subject matter experts. And that's
9 done annually. So if there was something that, as you said, in a
10 particular area that looked like there could be concerns, we could
11 --
12 Q. I'm not even saying concerns. I'm simply saying, you have
13 the data.
14 A. If you see something that looks unusual that needs our
15 attention that maybe we need to consider replacing a pipe, then
16 it's reviewed. And that's brought forward and put into a risk
17 model.
18 Q. So you are saying the integrity group looks at the
19 information that the technician is submitting?
20 A. I think they are part of that group. Yes.
21 Q. But, I'm -- okay. I can check with them whether they do, or
22 they do not. But your group does not look at that data?
23 A. I think we're part of that. Remember, I talked about the
24 subject matter experts? That's usually operational people that
25 work with them in looking at that information.

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1 Q. I'm sorry. I'm lost. You said, subject -- so earlier you
2 said the integrity group looks into that information.
3 A. They do.
4 Q. What I'm asking is, you are a supervisor, you are a person of
5 value. You guys don't look as to how many calls you got from
6 whatever service are you are responsible? You do, or you don't?
7 A. Well, we look at it daily, emergency repair. But, I guess
8 the answer that I can best give you --
9 Q. That's what I'm saying.
10 A. The best answer I can give you is no. Can we take a break?
11 Q. Absolutely. I'm sorry.
12 (Off the record.)
13 (On the record.)
14 BY MR. CHHATRE:
15 Q. Thank you so much. I just went to get coffee. So tell me,
16 with the supervisors, what time -- what the level is that they had
17 to report something urgently to you? What triggers them to
18 contact you, whether they can handle something on their own?
19 A. What triggers?
20 Q. You know, they report to you. So at what level of incident,
21 any incident, right? I'm not really saying anything particular --
22 that you expect them, or they're required to report to you, saying
23 hey look, this is what's happening under your umbrella?
24 A. I think anything that's unusual would be something I would
25 want to know about.

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1 Q. You would want to know?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. So on the 22nd, you learned about the 21st incident?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. And on the 22nd, there was a lot of activity that was being
6 done, leak surveys, and your survey technicians went and did all
7 of that information.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you said, everybody's communicating to you. Can you tell
10 me what time the activity ceased?
11 A. Ceased?
12 Q. Okay. All of the area is surveyed and what is the comfort
13 zone that that particular activity that day was stopped or -- if
14 it did? And I should not assume that it stopped.
15 A. I think activities were going on even until the next day.
16 Q. Oh, so continually through night?
17 A. Yes. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Okay. Well, let me go back to the 23rd now.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. So that means there are people there still working in the
21 area?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Can you walk me through on that event as to when you learned
24 what happened or --
25 A. On the 23rd?

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1 Q. Okay.
2 A. So I called Kyle and I reported the same thing to him. Mike
3 has heard a large boom. We don't have an address. We're not even
4 sure what it is. And so, from there, I try to call Mike back to
5 see what he's found out about an address or what is it he's
6 determined.
7 And they still don't have an address and he's still trying to
8 determine what's going on. This is happening very quickly,
9 obviously. From there -- I'm talking for me. I continue to drive
10 in. On the way in, I'm calling Brice Cassell, another supervisor
11 who was supposed to be there that morning to rotate with Mike Rose
12 because we've decided to keep a supervisor on the site, back from
13 the day before.
14 Q. And Cassell, is that C-A-S-S-E-L?
15 A. C-A-S-S-E-L-L. Yes, sir.
16 Q. And he was going to relieve Mr. Rose?
17 A. He was going to let Mr. Rose go home and get rest. Yes, sir.
18 And then, I continued to drive into the office.
19 Q. I'm sorry. Where is the office?
20 A. The Dallas service center, which is at Logan Street, 2601
21 Logan Street.
22 Q. Okay. That's fine.
23 A. And, from there, fearing what things could happen, I'm
24 starting to put -- remember, we had been looking at things the day
25 before. So there were maps and things on the table. So I'm

(410) 974-0947
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a.m.
1 8:00 | hour. It may have been a little before, whatever. And he is
2 assisting him. They're working together.
3 Q. Okay. And so, the block is being evacuated. By that time,
4 did you guys know where the explosion occurred? Was the address
5 confirmed at that time or not?
6 A. We had an address, but it didn't end up -- it seemed like it
7 was across the street. It didn't have the exact address. It came
8 a little later, to be quite honest.
9 Q. And where was Mr. Rose, do you know, at that time? Where was
10 Mr. Rose?
11 A. Where was he? He was --
12 Q. When he called you saying, hey, I heard a boom.
13 A. He's there at the location. If I remember right, and Mike
14 would have to clarify this.
15 Q. Sure.
16 A. But I believe it was raining pretty hard and they were
17 actually trying to escape the hard rain. And they were in front
18 of an address on Durango.
19 Q. An address on Durango?
20 A. Yes. That 3531 is where they were working at, in the alley.
21 Q. Oh, 3531 Durango? Okay.
22 A. And I think they were trying to escape the rain that was
23 pouring at that point in time.
24 Q. Yes. And, you know, my earlier questions were simply because
25 of -- that is what I was asking, really. Not a hypothetical

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1 question, but --
2 A. No. No.
3 Q. So they are in the neighborhood. So walk me through what
4 happened, in your own words. What was your involvement? What did
5 you do?
6 A. As far as -- we talked about the evacuation.
7 Q. Right.
8 A. So we directed about we want to shut the main down in the
9 alley between Espanola and Durango.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. And helping them, we're talking back and forth trying to
12 locate, where is the valves that would do that? And it happens to
13 be at Larga and it happens to be at Marsh Lane. So it's a 2 block
14 -- so they begin that process of --
15 Q. Mr. Rose?
16 A. Mr. Rose and Mr. Cassell.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. I think one's trying to do one side and the other one's
19 trying to do the other end. And that -- it takes them a little
20 time because they're trying to get into manholes. It's been
21 pouring rain.
22 And if you know anything about manholes, they're very
23 confining. A lot of them are 3, 4 feet deep. And you've got to
24 get the water out. You've got to get the mud out. You've got to
25 be able to get down to the valve and be able to turn the valves

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1 A. And we were going to shut that main in as an abundance of
2 precaution. The same scenario, turn it off at Largo, turn it off
3 at Marsh. The same kind of scenario. One's on one end and one's
4 on the other end, trying to get it off and to isolate that and
5 then purge it.
6 Q. So, at that time, Mr. Kyle is working with you?
7 A. He's giving me directions about what -- and, from him, he's
8 telling me what we need to do. And I'm, of course, conveying it
9 to the employees and our supervisors in the field.
10 Q. So you're kind of being a conduit, really, from the office,
11 directly to the field?
12 A. And I'm still there in the office. And, at the same time,
13 I'm beginning to have help in as far as trying to coordinate
14 getting a command center out to the -- somewhere in that area. I
15 mentioned Mr. Green earlier, one of the other supervisors.
16 He got the command -- there's a command trailer, if you want
17 to call it that, that's there at the Dallas service center. He
18 was getting it out and getting it prepared to try to get it to a
19 location. We still had to determine a location up in that area.
20 So that was going on at the same time.
22 (On the record.)
23 BY MR. CHHATRE:
24 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
25 A. Anyway, as I mentioned, we were trying to get a command

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1 center headed that way. At the same time, I'm talking to the
2 supervisors in the field. The next, again, we're still
3 continuing, trying to isolate that area.
4 A decision is made to cut off the main that's to the north,
5 the next alley to the north, which is between Espanola and
6 Fontana, if I've got that right. And it's still the same
7 scenario.
8 Try to cut it off at Larga, try to cut it off at Marsh,
9 continuing to -- you know, it takes a little time, simply because
10 you're trying to pump things out. You're trying to get to the
11 valves and to be able to turn it off.
12 Q. So, the command center, that's your command center or the
13 fire department's command center?
14 A. This trailer belongs to Atmos. So it's not the fire
15 department's command center.
16 Q. Okay. So it's your command center.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Atmos? Okay. And now, during this happening, are you in
19 touch with the fire department, or your company, is your company
20 in touch with the fire department, responding, the police
21 department, or how's that working?
22 A. I believe that's -- the group out at the scene are talking
23 with the fire department on the scene. We have not set up our
24 command center. We haven't got to that point.
25 Q. And who was that person? Who was that person who was in

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1 communication with --
2 A. I believe Mike Rose was talking with the fire department on
3 the scene.
4 Q. Okay. So the command center's kind of getting activated, I
5 guess?
6 A. Yes. Obviously, we were taking to, I thought, a good
7 location, which was a school nearby. Foster Elementary, I believe
8 is the name of the school. We thought, big parking lot, that
9 might be a -- and it's fairly close by, that might be a good
10 scenario.
11 In retrospect, after the decision was made that we might want
12 to evacuate the school, again, in an abundance of safety. It
13 didn't seem to be a good idea to put the command center where you
14 just evacuated a school. So Michael looked for another location
15 and it ended up being at Webb Chapel, just north of Larga, a strip
16 shopping center.
17 And one of the first things we have to do is, of course, get
18 permission from whoever owns that property. And they did that and
19 allowed us. And that's where we ended up having the command
20 center. And, in retrospect, even though we're not there in a
21 trailer today, we're still there.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. And that's where the fire department eventually brought their
24 command center, was right there by us.
25 Q. Okay. So next to each other pretty much?

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1 progressed.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Tell me more on the shortstop.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. If you have a valve, why wouldn't you just close the valve
6 rather than either do the whole -- I don't know how that works.
7 So maybe educate me.
8 A. A valve can, you know, may seize up. It's a manual thing.
9 Q. Freeze, kind of freeze?
10 A. It can. Yes, sir. I mean, you try to lubricate it. You try
11 to do things.
12 Q. I see. So closing and closing, it's not closing. So the
13 simple thing is -- so that's when you do the shortstop.
14 A. It's an option. That's our option. Yes, sir.
15 Q. But doesn't that damage the valve now? Do you have to
16 replace the valve going forward or --
17 A. Well, the shortstop is not by the valve. It's just a -- some
18 little distance away from the valve, whatever footage it may be.
19 And then, if you've got an issue with a valve, then you might want
20 to replace that valve.
21 Q. Okay. But putting in the shortstop does not destroy?
22 A. It does not destroy the valve. No, sir. There are many
23 shortstops close to valves throughout the entire system.
24 Q. So tell me how that works. Tell me how that works. What do
25 you do with the shortstop? How do you do that?

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1 A. You expose the main, dig it up. You take whatever coating
2 might be off. There's a fitting that you weld on. There's some
3 equipment that, once you put the weld on the fitting, that you put
4 on valves and a machine.
5 For different sizes, it's got a cutter shell. You basically
6 drill down, cut a hole in the top of the main for this -- these
7 were small mains. These were two and 3 inches.
8 Q. Three inches. Yes.
9 A. And it actually captures the coupon. You pull it out. You
10 shut the valve. You take that machine off. You put on a
11 different machine that's got a stopper, as we call it, a short-
12 stopper.
13 There's different manufacturers. And it drops down, more or
14 less, a seal cup or a rubber stopper. And as you drop it and you
15 tighten it up, it seals up the mains where gas --
16 Q. So it expands?
17 A. Yes, sir. So that stops the flow of gas. And you have the
18 ability to make sure you stop the flow because it's got a bleeder.
19 Q. Then once you drop it down, it expands like a balloon and
20 pretty much closes.
21 A. Or it can have a sealing cup. It can actually go down --
22 Q. It can do that on a light? [?]
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Okay. So the first main at the ground zero location you
25 closed, that -- and the others that you closed, are they the same

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1 main, the same line, or they are on different mains and different
2 lines?
3 A. I would call them -- I'd call them different mains. I mean,
4 you're able to isolate these sections. So even though they're all
5 tied together, I guess it's your interpretation of what you want
6 to call them. But mine is, that's a main. There's another main.
7 They're all in different alleys.
8 Q. But they're not feeding by the same feed? I guess what I'm
9 thinking is, are you isolating this block, or do you have done
10 some distance of it is closed the two mains feeding the area and
11 just stop entirely everything, rather than doing strip-wise plus?
12 A. I mean, could you do that? I guess the answer is --
13 Q. I'm not questioning could you have -- is there the
14 possibility you could have done that? I mean, of course,
15 hindsight is 20/20. But I'm just trying to find out was there
16 anything that you can just get close to and just shut the gap.
17 Granted, it probably could have been more radial.
18 A. But I don't think it would've been just two. You would've
19 had to find a much bigger area. And the prudent thing was the
20 immediate alley, right there. And that's why we shut those two
21 valves. And everything else was an abundance of safety.
22 Q. Now are these valves, by regulation, aren't you required to
23 check them annually or they are not?
24 A. Not an isolation valve. There are some, maybe other valves,
25 that can be designated as an emergency valve, but not an isolation

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1 A. I think it's out of abundance of safety. We're evacuating a
2 bigger area. It's not necessarily that there's gas leaking.
3 Q. That's what I'm saying. At that point, it's zero
4 confirmation.
5 A. It's really that the decisions are handed down to me and to
6 the field and we're trying to get resources into that area, and
7 the fire department is helping us as well.
8 Q. But, I mean, whatever you guys are doing in terms of

[?]
9 isolating gas, it was, that day, 1:23:16)))). You still don't
10 have the confirmation that your gas is definitely involved or not
11 involved because there is no confirmation one way or the other by
12 this time.
13 A. No, sir. I mean, that's an assumption. This is what that's
14 going to be. But, no, I do not have --
15 Q. And so, you are yielding more to the safety side.
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. So tell me what you guys did to confirm or not confirm that
18 it is your gas or your pipe in any shape involved.
19 A. I don’t think we're 100 percent sure whether we are or not.
20 Q. No. I understand. What I'm saying is, what effort was being
21 made in that --
22 A. Because we -- remember we had talked about the Grade 2, 30-
23 day leaks? We had done some survey in the area. We had found
24 some -- there was actually a called in leak on Larga that the
25 service tech graded a 1 and we had crew there making that repair.

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1 There were other leaks that were found during a survey on the
2 22nd, that -- there was two more services replaced. One's down
3 at, I want to say, 9551 Larga.
4 Then there's 3502 Cortez. And then there was a main leak
5 that was found up close to Marsh and Durango in an alley between
6 Durango and Espanola. All of those are being repaired.
7 Q. While this work is going on?
8 A. Those were, even the night, the day before and the night
9 before.
10 Q. On the 22nd?
11 A. Yes, sir. So as we're continuing on, after the incident,
12 we're continuing to make the area safe. And then, I think there's
13 more decisions about continuing survey, expanding the area. We
14 know where we've got gas off.
15 So we know that we have an area that's -- does not have gas
16 in the system. As we said, from the alley between Gaspar and

Bolivar
17 Fontana, all the way to the alley between Cortez and _________
Bulovar and
18 between Larga and Marsh.
19 Q. So on the 23rd, you are continuing your survey activities,
20 simultaneously, while this thing is going on?
21 A. Yes. And if we're finding leaks, we're making repairs. Yes,
22 sir.
23 Q. So, as far as this 2-inch main in the alley behind the ground
24 zero building, what activity was taking place at that time besides
25 the service you guys did earlier, the repair? And in response to

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1 the accident, were you doing any pressure test on this line or any
2 pressure test done anywhere at that time?
3 A. No. That building, if you will, we're not allowed access at
4 that point. I think the fire department had full control of that
5 property at that time. Now, Mike might have been able to do
6 before they had the accident.
7 You know, they might have been able to do some bar testing.
8 But I think -- I don't think they got to do a complete
9 investigation, if they even did. I think the only thing they

off
10 might have gotten to do was maybe turn the meter ___
on.
11 Q. So nothing is happening on that 2-inch line in the alley at
12 that time, while all of these things are going on?
13 A. No. Once we turn the gas off, we knew the gas was off the
14 main.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. Our intention was expanding, looking, and make the area safe.
17 Q. Okay. Then what happened next?
18 A. On the 23rd?
19 Q. The 23rd and were you involved in anything more beyond the
20 23rd or kind of somebody else took over?
21 A. At some point, I was relieved at the command center, later
22 that evening. And continuing to survey the areas, expanding,
23 we're finding leaks. Whether the -- no matter what the grade of
24 leak was, we were repairing them right then. We were putting in a
25 crew on them. Actually, if we found a house with an individual

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1 scenario of a grade of leak, we would evacuate the house. Again,
2 abundancy of safety, and put a -- get a repair crew there,
3 continuing to monitor it and make the area safe.
4 Q. While on the scene, did you hear about this gas bubbling from
5 the front yard in two or three locations where gas was coming out
6 with a Grade 1 leak? Did you hear that while you are on the scene
7 or you did not hear that?
8 A. Gas bubbling?
9 Q. Right. I mean, I think it's the second night. I'm not sure
10 when it's heard. I'm trying to tell why you haven't seen. Did
11 you hear that there are two or three locations while your survey
12 was going on on the 22nd?
13 A. I know the leak that was called in by a customer at 9583
14 Larga had mentioned bubbles at the street. An order went out and
15 a technician that was there in the alley was sent over there by
16 Salvador. He investigated the leak, determined it to be a Grade
17 1, and stood by until the crew got there. So that one, I know had
18 bubbles.
19 Q. Yes. What we found in an interview at two -- at least two
20 more locations or maybe three, they're Grade 1 leaks, pretty
21 similar to the bubbles coming out. Have you heard of those?
22 A. Not that I'm aware of. I know about the Grade 1's down
23 further at Larga and Cortez. Now, whether there were bubbles
24 there or not, I don't know.
25 Q. Okay. So you have not heard of any Grade 1 leaks?

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1 A. There were no more Grade 1 leaks that I was aware of. No.
2 Q. Okay. So while all of this survey is going on and with this
3 accident, what are your tasks intended for the integrity of the
4 system? Do you feel confident? Did you feel, how do I address
5 that? 1:29:18.
6 MR. TOBIN: What time are you referring to?
7 BY MR. CHHATRE:
8 Q Yes. On the 23rd.
9 A. On the 23rd?
10 Q. I'm sorry. On the 23rd.
11 A. I don't -- if I understood your question right, do I have an
12 issue?
13 Q. Yes. Okay. Let me repeat it. What I'm saying is, you are
14 seeing some real data, earlier leaks, early results, early on the
15 22nd night, the whole day of the 22nd. All of this information is
16 coming to you because now you are on the scene on the 23rd.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. My thought is, what are your thoughts on the integrity? Did
19 you feel that something more should be done immediately, or you
20 are comfortable about the safety?
21 A. On the 22nd?
22 Q. On the 23rd, with the information of the 22nd, exploded on
23 the 23rd, and what was being done on the 23rd with all of the
24 leaks caused and fixing.
25 A. I think I, again, information is coming to me where we're

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1 expanding the area. We're surveying the area. Do I think there's
2 -- do I have concerns about the system, like is your question?
3 Q. Yes. Correct. That's exactly what I'm asking.
4 A. I think there's questions, obviously. But we are doing what
5 we need to do. And if we think there's a question, we seal it.
6 We cut the gas off in that particular main and we evacuate.
7 Q. But, I mean, did you think that maybe there was -- how you
8 could have learned about this before this thing happened? I mean,
9 how is that sort of the thinking?
10 A. No. I had nothing that gave me any indication that we had
11 any kind of issues.
12 Q. So this was detected, I guess, if you would, in the end.
13 A. Not to that point. No.
14 Q. Okay. And that's 1:31. I'll just pass it on to Steve.
15 DR. JENNER: Let me see what time it is. Anyone like a
16 second break?
17 MR. ROSENBERG: I'm okay.
18 MR. CHHATRE: If you want. If you say no, nobody gets a
19 break.
20 MR. ROSENBERG: Let's see where we go, Steve.
21 BY DR. JENNER:
22 Q. Okay. This is Steve Jenner. I'm going to bounce around a
23 bit. I was writing some questions during your discussion. On the
24 22nd, you started learning about the house event on the 21st, the
25 day before. And you mentioned, I think, some of that information

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1 was from fire department, either reports or information. If you
2 could just elaborate what you knew from the fire department about
3 the 21st incident?
4 A. And really what I learned about the 21st incident is only
5 from the leak order, when we reviewed it on the 22nd. It stated,
6 or at least in the notes from the technician, I guess it may be,
7 that, leak in the house piping or some wording like that.
8 I'm not exactly sure what the wording was, but something to
9 that effect. And so, evidently, when the technician got there,
10 they still did their test. But that was just part of the
11 notation. So I'm assuming the technician and the fire department
12 had a discussion.
13 Q. Okay. Is there ever a need for you to -- sometimes the, like
14 the arson reports from the fire department, they take a little
15 time to complete. Is there ever a need or a cause for you, Atmos,
16 to go back and get the actual report from the fire department?
17 A. I guess the way I would answer that is simply, I wouldn't say
18 that's normal, but could it ever happen? I think the answer could
19 be yes, especially as we're dealing with a potential claim or
20 somebody who's trying to come and ask us about information. So I
21 wouldn't say it's not impossible or wouldn't happen, but I don't
22 think it's a normal scenario.
23 Q. Not in a normal practice. Right?
24 A. No. And I think it can go either way, to be quite honest.
25 Q. Sure. Okay. Well, I was curious because there's certainly

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1 A. Oh, I'm sorry.
2 Q. The night of the 22nd, when you went off duty, at roughly
3 11:00 p.m.
4 A. Yes. You're right.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. No. I went home. Sorry. I'm getting confused.
7 Q. Sure.
8 A. On the 22nd, I went home. The only personnel on site, again,
9 is -- there was Salvador and Juan. Salvador went home on the
10 22nd. Juan was relieved by Mike, again, somewhere around midnight
11 or whenever Juan left.
12 And I was at home. There were no concerns at the scene. As
13 far as we knew, the last leak was being repaired. And Mike Rose
14 and the crew were there on site.
15 Q. Did someone take over your duties or responsibilities?
16 A. During the night?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. No, sir. I mean, I was still available if I was needed.
19 Q. Still on call, as you always are?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Okay. How as the decision made about where you're, on the
22 22nd, where you're -- that it's most strategic for you to be? At
23 a command center versus on site versus another location?
24 A. On the 22nd?
25 Q. On the 22nd.

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1 A. On the 22nd, there was no need to have a command center or
2 anything like that. Again, we were surveying the area. I was at
3 the service center, in communication. There was nothing to
4 indicate any kind of situation that would deem to be an emergency
5 or an incident or a command center or anything like that.
6 Q. Okay. You had mentioned using maps, at least on the 23rd.
7 and I think you said, some were on the table because of the day
8 before. So you were using maps on the 22nd to help?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And the maps are located at the service center?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Okay. The third event was sort of a tipping point for the
13 decision-making to start isolating the gas.
14 MR. TOBIN: On what day?
15 DR. JENNER: The third event on the 23rd.
16 MR. TOBIN: Okay. I'm sorry to interrupt.
17 BY DR. JENNER:
18 Q. Sure. So after that event, the decision was made to start
19 isolating. That decision wasn't made on the 22nd, based on the
20 information that you had. What would've been the tipping point on
21 the 22nd for Atmos to decide that we need to isolate?
22 A. I mean, it had to come that we deemed some kind of emergency
23 or some kind of action that would -- that there was something
24 there that was a hazardous situation. But we didn't have that.
25 Q. Right. Is there a certain number of Grade 1's that would

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1 have elevated this, or a certain -- I'll ask that question first.
2 A. In that alley, per se? Yes. I don't know if there's an X
3 number. But definitely, it would have caused us to reevaluate, if
4 you want to use that word, about what we should do. What would've
5 been the thing to do to, again, to protect life and property.
6 Q. Sure. Are there -- I just gave the example of Grade 1's.
7 Are there other events that would have caused you to reevaluate?
8 A. I think you would consider anything and everything. I don't
9 know if there's any one thing that would've done that. But again,
10 anything that would've caused us to say, there's something here
11 that's unusual, then the right thing to do was to shut it off,
12 then we would've done that.

Ravi
13 Q. Sure. ________
Robbie had mentioned -- it takes us -- we had to talk
14 to a lot of people before here to try to get a full picture.
15 A. I understand.
16 Q. And I guess the challenge is the same for you, when things
17 are real time. So we learned of, I think, two or three bubbling
18 events going on. Are those triggers to elevate discussion, to
19 cause you to reevaluate if you have different pockets of bubbling
20 going on?
21 A. My answer would be no, not necessarily. It's a piece. And
22 it obviously can be seen. It obviously could raise concern to a
23 customer. We would try to grade it based upon what we normally
24 do, which is look at the migration. We look at proximity of
25 buildings. We look at the extent of paving. Those are all

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1 factors. But if there was a customer concern or if the
2 investigator decided it needed -- it was in hazard, then we could
3 grade it a one and we could make immediate repairs.

Ravi
4 Q. Okay. ________
Robbie explained before the interviews got started
5 about our purpose for being here. And I think you're aware of
6 that.
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. So we look at all events and see how they can be prevented.
9 I imagine that Atmos will go through some type of exercise as
10 well?
11 A. I'm sure we will do a review, evaluation, at some level. I
12 think it would include a lot of different departments, obviously,
13 to try to best understand what took place, what happened. And, as
14 you mentioned, how to prevent in the future.
15 Q. Sure. Have you ever been part of any type of post-accident
16 reviews or evaluations before?
17 A. I don't believe so. Not that I'm aware of. And obviously,
18 I've never seen anything quite like this.
19 Q. Just overall, how would you rate the flow of information on -
20 - after the event on the 22nd until you went off duty? How
21 effective was that communication or are there areas that you
22 would've liked to have had more information?
23 A. I think the flow of information, for example, between the
24 supervisors and myself, I think was very good. I think the flow
25 of information between Kyle and I was very good. Depending on

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1 what your question kind of leads towards, if you're talking about
2 the information between us and the emergency responders, I think
3 we did very well. So I think, overall, as far as communication
4 flow, I think it was good.
5 Q. Okay. I think that's what I have for now. Thank you.
6 MR. ROSENBERG: Okay. Thank you, Steve.
7 MR. CHHATRE: You, sir?
8 BY MR. JONES:
9 Q. This is Michael Jones, Accident Investigator with PHMSA. I
10 wanted to jump forward to the point where your folks were trying
11 to isolate the line by shutting the valves and coming up upon
12 flooded valve boxes. Right?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. So how was that remediated?
15 A. The trucks -- the alleys were extremely muddy, as you've been
16 out there.
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. But the valve boxes are at the end of the alleys, if you
19 will, or at least right at Marsh and down at Larga, for the most
20 part. Obviously, it had been raining quite a bit. They have
21 water pumps that they can -- they have on their trucks that they
22 can use.
23 The problem with a water pump sometimes is, it's a confined
24 space. And trying to get the pump down in there, might be a
25 little bit bigger than what you're trying to get out. We do have

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1 what we call vac trucks. And the vac trucks are able to come to
2 the scene. They're able to pump out water. They're able to maybe
3 even help get dirt and mud out of the hole. So, and again, I'm
4 not there at the scene. So I'm telling you what I believe they
5 did use.
6 Q. Okay. So is there a set procedure for when to call in a vac
7 truck? Is that something that would be in a standard operating
8 procedure?
9 A. They have the availability of a vac truck even say at dry
10 times, if you just wanted to what we call, pothole a main. It can
11 do that. But is it a standard procedure? I don't think there's a
12 standard procedure for when you call a vac truck. You call the
13 vac truck when you need the vac truck.
14 Q. Okay. So sort of a tangentially-related question to that. Is
15 there any general guidance for inclement and wet weather? A
16 contingency plan for say, a survey activity?
17 A. There is a paragraph or two. It's in our procedure about wet
18 weather. Yes. And basically, you put down more bar holes. You
19 try to find where bar holes do not fill up with water. And
20 there's abilities to be able to do that.
21 The ground gets a little bit higher in one spot or another.
22 And there's other things you can do, obviously. Which is, once
Sensit
23 you put a bar hole down, and you can use the __________
sense-it. And you
24 can actually come right over the top of the bar hole with the wand
25 and get a reading a lot of times.

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1 Q. So is there any information or guidance regarding the use of
2 vac trucks in those procedures?
3 A. No. Not a vac truck. And realize, in those alleys, it was -
4 -
5 Q. Right.
6 A. I don't think you could've gotten a -- there was no way we
7 were going to get a vac truck down there.
8 Q. Right. But in a similar circumstance where you maybe could
9 have, would they be able to look at their procedures and say, it's
10 very wet outside. Maybe I should consider calling in a vac truck.
11 A. It's not in the procedures, but it would be something that
12 they can, with the help of their supervisor, make a decision.
13 That's what we need. Yes. It's available all the time,
14 basically.
15 Q. And would there be a time where a surveyor was trying to run
16 a bar hole survey and was encountering this wet weather -- to your
17 knowledge, has there been a time where he has said, we need to get
18 this water out of here, so I can do my job, and called in a vac
19 truck? Is that something that would be normal, or would that be a
20 little abnormal for surveying?
21 A. Well, maybe I should answer it this way, Michael. The
22 surveyors report to Tommy. So if that was what they were thinking
23 they were needing, they would probably call Tommy and let him
24 know. And then, of course, Tommy would let operations know
25 because we work hand-in-hand. But, I don't know of a time or fact

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1 because they wouldn't have normally called me. So, to answer your
2 question, I don't have a known time when that might have happened.
3 Q. Sure. Thank you. So kind of jumping back here. I guess
4 back to the, back before the 22nd even occurred, as I understand
5 it, on the 21st event, there was a tech dispatched to the scene.
6 And he made his report and filed it and submitted it in some
7 manner to -- what was that program called?
8 A. Through our CSS program, customer service system.
9 Q. Okay. Would there be anybody else on that day or prior to
10 the 22nd that also would have been knowledgeable about that event?
11 A. Prior to the 22nd? The only other person that I'm aware of,
12 and this was discovered later. But that tech was Michael
13 Robinson. And, as I understand, he did report that to his
14 supervisor, which was Steven Cox. But that's not something we
15 learned until later. And it's, again, I'm going to say, it's a
16 fire at a house. There's no leak on the system found.
17 Q. Right.
18 A. You know? Yes.
19 Q. It was not deemed necessary to be elevated to a manager,
20 supervisor, so on and so forth?
21 A. It's a fire at a house and there's no leak to report.
22 Q. Okay. And then, so similarly, the next day on the 23rd or at
23 lunch, you were informed of the --
24 A. The 22nd.
25 Q. The 22nd. Yes. Sorry. You were at lunch on the 22nd. You

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1 were informed of a second event. And you mentioned having the
2 call order. Was that for the 21st you had available to you?
3 A. No. We didn't know about the 21st until we --
4 Q. Okay. That was for the 22nd.
5 A. We actually were at lunch on the 22nd. The fire for 3515 has
6 come in. We don't know about the fire for 3527, until we really
7 come back, and we look at records.
8 Q. Okay. And then, so how are you able to obtain that call
9 order?
10 A. It's in the computer system.
11 Q. The computer system?
12 A. But they bring it up and, I'm sure, they'll probably get a
13 copy.
14 Q. Okay. That's all I had for now. Thank you.
15 MR. ROSENBERG: Would it be okay to take a break at this
16 point? Because --
17 MR. CHHATRE: I'll tell you what. It's almost lunch time.
18 Do you want to take a lunch break and then come back?
19 MR. ROSENBERG: I think that would be wonderful, as far as
20 I'm concerned.
21 MR. TOBIN: How much longer do you think you'll go with him?
22 Do you think you'll go awhile? Then lunch is great.
24 (On the record.)
25 DR. JENNER: We're back on the record. The time is 1:30 p.m.

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1 central time. We'll continue our discussion with Mr. Benny
2 Rosenberg. We'll go around the table and just introduce yourself
3 and fire away.
4 MR. CHEVEREZ: Jose Cheverez, Railroad Commission in Texas,
5 Pipeline Inspector.
6 MR. BAKER: Bobby Baker, Dallas Fire HASMAT.
7 DR. JENNER: I'm sorry. I didn't need a whole introduction.
8 Just continue with your questions. We'll get to you.
9 BY MR. CHEVEREZ:
10 Q. So I wasn't on your first interview for the emergency
11 response. So I apologize if I ask some of the same questions.
12 But to fill my gaps -- so I have Juan Cruz is the technician that
13 was on for 22nd of February that called the supervisors at lunch.
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And then, who was the technician, the senior technician, that
16 went in after that call was made?

Wallis
17 A. I believe that was Josh _________
Wallace was called to the scene.
18 Q. Okay. Do you know who the technician was for the 21st of
19 February?
20 A. I understand that was Michael Robinson.
21 Q. Right. Do we know who the dispatcher was?
22 A. I do not.
23 Q. Okay. So my first question towards the other information is
24 the dispatchers, are they Atmos employees and are they OQ trained?
25 A. They're Atmos employees. What their OQ requirements are, I

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1 can make that one-hour discovery call or do you have that
2 authority or the techs or anything?
3 A. I guess there's not a, per se, a procedure. We normally go
4 through our chain of command as we're doing that. And I think,
5 normally, for us, Marlo Sutton makes that -- has that role.
6 Obviously, we go through our chain of command as we're doing that.
7 Q. Okay. What about safety-related conditions?
8 A. Who reports? The same.
9 Q. The same? Okay. When the incident command was set up, you
10 were already integrated into the incident and everything going on
11 involved. Do you have a specific role in the procedure or in the
12 emergency plan or is it just wherever you deem fit?
13 A. Well in the emergency command is flow of communication,
14 obviously, flow of work, flow of resources. In my role, I was
15 communicating with Kyle and then communicating with the field and
16 the field communicating back to me and then going back to Kyle.
17 So --
18 Q. Okay. So Kyle was sort of the incident commander at that
19 point or leading most of what was going on for Atmos?
20 A. Directing to me. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. So in the incident command side, you would be more
22 like a chief of operations or --
23 A. I think second in charge. I think it's what's in our plan.
24 Q. So then like, deputy commander. I wanted to clarify a
25 previous point that you had spoken on, reviews after incidents or

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1 reviews after projects or any other maintenance, operational
2 maintenance roles. You don't recall participating in any of
3 those. By participating, do you mean leading or being questioned
4 or --
5 A. After an incident?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. I don't recall. I mean, I obviously participated in some
8 form or fashion. But to be reviewed or actions thereabout,
9 formally, I don't remember being part of that. Now, that doesn't
10 mean I wasn't asked a question. Or it doesn't mean somebody
11 didn't ask something that might have participated in that,
12 depending on what you call an incident, obviously.
13 But talking about our -- something that you all might review
14 as far as TRC, we would go -- you would sit down with us and go
15 through a review. That's -- I guess that is a way of reviewing
16 something. But, internally, per se, I'm thinking of something
17 that involves an explosion.
18 And that doesn't happen every day, obviously. I'm just
19 saying, it's been a long time since I've been involved in any of
20 that. And in thinking back to that, I don't remember going
21 through that and that's been many, many years ago, if that helps
22 at all. I sure don't want to say that we don't do that. I'm just
23 saying, I haven't been involved.

Ravi
24 Q. _______ for
Sort of same clarification on the questions that Robbie
25 sort of tabulating leaks. You said that it's done annually. But

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1 you're not part of that procedure. It's the integrity group or
2 something like that that does that. So, to your knowledge, have
3 you ever been asked for that information or does the integrity
4 group just come and get the information on the --
5 A. Well, it comes out of the system of the CM-Plus.
6 Q. Okay. And they just pull it directly?
7 A. That's how I would -- that's what I believe. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. And then, one more clarification. Towards the
9 beginning, you were saying that service techs level one, don't
10 normally leak rate unless they're qualified and they're special
11 circumstances. Is that in the procedure of what special
12 circumstances or --
13 A. No. And all I'm saying there is, as people progress, they
14 would normally not have leak -- they would not have the training
15 yet or the OQ qualifications, until they at least get to service
16 tech 2.
17 But I'm not going to say it would never happen. I'm not
18 saying that somebody couldn't be in that job for quite a while and
19 got all of that training and we just hadn't progressed them yet.
20 That's a possibility. But that's just, what would be --
21 Q. So their qualifications and their level are separate?
22 A. Their skills. Yes, as they progress.
23 Q. Okay. That's all I have for now. Thanks.
24 DR. JENNER: Okay. Any questions?
25 MR. BAKER: No, sir. I don't have any.

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1 BY MR. McDILL:
2 Q. Yes. John McDill, Atmos Energy. Benny, just following up on
3 some of the questions just to clarify for me and maybe others as
4 well. You used the term on a number of occasions around measured
5 gas versus non-measured gas. Are you trying to draw some -- is
6 there a distinction between those two?
7 A. Measured gas is usually on house piping that goes from
8 wherever the meter or measurement point is into the house or
9 building and on into the appliances. That is normally the
10 responsibility of the customers. That's their piping.
11 And if it was needed to be inspected, what we do when we look
12 at that piping, we'll make a pressure test to make sure it's
13 either leaking or not leaking. In other words, that it's sound
14 and safe. If it's not, we weren't turn on the gas at that point.
15 Unmeasured gas is the part of the gas that's in our distribution
16 system.
17 And we, if we're doing a leak survey of our system, that's
18 what we're surveying. That's not to say we wouldn't bar test
19 around a house or something like that. But we would try to
20 determine whether it's measured gas or unmeasured gas.
21 Q. So you're using it in terms of whether it's a jurisdictional
22 responsibility or non-jurisdictional?
23 A. Very much so.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you for your clarification. You mentioned, and
25 maybe I misunderstood, but the review of work the following

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1 morning. And leak orders, is that a type of emergency work?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. So leak orders are considered emergency work and those would
4 also be reviewed the following morning?
5 A. You're talking about construction leak orders, per se, or are
6 you talking about the service tech?
7 Q. I'm talking about if I'm a service technician and go out for
8 a leak investigation.
9 A. That would be reviewed the next business day.
10 Q. Well, no later than the next business day.
11 A. Exactly. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Okay. All right. A lot of the discussions about information
13 that we gather about what we learn through leak investigation, it
14 goes into a system called CM-Plus.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. There's a groupage, I think you've mentioned, called
17 integrity group.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. That collects data. Do you or others in the Dallas service
20 center, periodically meet with representatives from those groups
21 to review the data for clarification or understanding?
22 A. At least annually, we go through a review and they bring us
23 their information that they've gathered so far and ask us for our
24 input on any other areas that we may deem that needs to be
25 considered or look at what information they've gathered, and do we

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1 agree with that being appropriately determined as a risk factor
2 and should it be replaced sooner than later.
3 Q. Do you know if they just -- what the number of people at the
4 Dallas service center who may have direct operational know of the
5 system performance, they meet with those at least on an annual
6 basis?
7 A. Yes. And that's what we call, subject matter experts. And
8 that's our more tenured employees, employees who are in the field,
9 employees who are working on the system.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. You've mentioned also about the general
11 progression of service technicians. And you've got technician 1,
12 technician 2, to senior. Is that an automatic progression based
13 on time or there are other skill developments?
14 A. No. It's based upon skills. It's based upon their training.
15 It's based upon getting certain, when you say skills, OQs. And
16 then, there's also -- a supervisor will normally ride with that
17 technician and try to determine are they proficient in their work.
18 And there's also -- I think I mentioned it before, job-side
19 training, where they ride with another technician as well. It's
20 not an automatic at all.
21 Q. Right. Okay. Thank you for verifying that. In typical
22 training that is received, I mean, is there training that you know
23 of that is delivered for help to determine cause or origin of
24 fires or anything of that nature?
25 A. Yes. There is a -- just recently we took an AELC training

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1 course about reporting and incidents and so forth. So that was
2 part of our normal training that everybody has to take. We also
3 just recently have been going -- well, there is some emergency
4 response training that we also have available.
5 It's a 3-day course. And we also have a refresher training
6 that we're going through within this last year as well, about
7 emergency response.
8 Q. Is part of that helping train you or others around
9 determination of the cause of a fire or do you rely on --
10 A. No. We don't determine cause of fire. That is the fire
11 department. We lean on them to help us with those investigations.
12 They are trained in that and we are not.
13 Q. Okay. So when you're called to respond, like on the two
14 instances, one on February the 21st and one on February 22nd, it
15 sounds like there's the partnership where you're relying on input
16 from the fire department.
17 But also, you're conducting investigation of either our
18 facilities or something of that nature to see if there's other
19 factual information that can be gathered to help. Did I
20 understand that correctly?
21 A. That is absolutely correct. We do talk with the fire
22 department on the scene. But then, we also do our own
23 investigation to make sure the area's safe and we haven't missed
24 anything.
25 Q. And that would include bar hole testing around the

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1 alley entrance between Durango and Cortez. I think we -- there
2 was, down here at Cortez, the entrance to the alley between Cortez
Bolivar
3 and _________
Bulovar, which is right here at Larga, there was a Grade 1.
4 And those three, the Larga, all three, both on Larga and the
5 one on Cortez, were all service line leaks of a compression
6 coupling. They were not out on the main. They were service line
7 leaks. And then, of course, there was the Grade 1 that was up
8 here.
9 I think it's actually 3655 Durango, which is right at Marsh,
10 at the entrance of the alley between Espanola and Durango. And
11 that was a leak on the main that was, again, I think a coupling
12 that they actually welded over. And as I point these out, these
13 are not close together. These have some distance between them.
14 So --
15 Q. And I guess we've provided the copies of these, of the Bates
16 numbers 286, 287, 288, and 290. You know, we've published, put on
17 the FTP site. And I just -- you did a great job of recalling the
18 addresses.
19 I've struggled with that for a while. But those are the
20 orders from that. And I guess from all of those indicated that
21 they seem to be isolated in nature and maybe specific to an
22 address. Does that --
23 A. That would be correct. That would be my opinion as well. I
24 mean, the services lines obviously go to a specific address and
25 the leak is at a tap. And it seems like all of the migration is

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1 A. No. Supervision's a multi -- I mean, there's leadership
2 skills involved, obviously. How to interact with employees and
3 how to make sure they have their skills and their abilities and
4 OQs to do their job.
5 A supervisor doesn't -- that doesn't mean they don't know
6 service work or they don't know construction work. It's that they
7 have the ability to lead and direct those employees.
8 Q. Now when it comes time for them to evaluate their
9 performance, I understand that part of their duties is to ride
10 along. Now, without that technical background, how can they go
11 about evaluating their proficiency?
12 A. I mean, there are procedures set on how you operate and there
13 are procedures set on how you complete an order. And they can
14 evaluate through that or through the OQ system as well. So
15 there's no doubt in my mind they can do that job.
16 Q. Okay. Thanks for the clarification. That's all I have.
17 I'll look around the table for any follow-up questions.
18 MR. CHEVEREZ: Just one follow-up.
19 DR. JENNER: Just introduce yourself.
20 BY MR. CHEVEREZ:
21 Q. Jose Cheverez, Railroad Commission. So once this is all said
22 and done, are there any recommendations or opinions that you have
23 on how operations or training and qualification, or anything as
24 far as operation and maintenance, can be improved or changed to
25 help prevent reoccurrence?

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1 A. I'm sure we will take that opportunity and we will do that.
2 Do I have that in my head in the moment, what my opinion would be?
3 Not yet. We're still dealing with the scenario out there.
4 So I think that's a little soon to be -- me trying to figure
5 out exactly what, you know, one, I don't know exactly what
6 happened out there just yet. And two, I'm sure we will get
7 together and we will learn that, and we will adjust, if we need to
8 adjust, and keep this from, hopefully, ever happening again.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 DR. JENNER: Mr. Baker?
11 BY MR. BAKER:
12 Q. Yes. Kevin Baker, Dallas Fire HASMAT. I have one follow-up
13 question, Mr. Rosenberg, and that's the grading system. I just
14 want to be clarified on this. That is on measured or non-measured
15 gas, on the grading system?
16 A. It's on unmeasured gas.
17 Q. Unmeasured gas? Okay. So, going back on the 22nd, with all
18 the Grade 1's that we had, was there ever any thought to approach
19 the houses itself and talk to those occupants about getting out or
20 moving?
21 A. The Grade 1's?
22 Q. Yes, sir.
23 A. In my belief, no. Because we're only talking -- well, there
24 was four Grade 1's. And actually, as I understand, one of them we
25 did evacuate.

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1 Q. Okay.
2 A. So, if technician who was on site or any of the other folks
3 on site deemed that there was a need to evacuate, they would have
4 done it. And, in one case, they did.
5 Q. That's all I have.
6 DR. JENNER: Okay.
7 BY MR. McDILL:
8 Q. Yes. John McDill. Just to be clear, with Atmos Energy.
9 Yes. I think maybe the order you're referring to -- is that
10 familiar to you?
11 A. Yes, sir. 3655 Durango.
12 Q. So you talked earlier about the focus around safety and what
13 you left were -- people felt empowered to take the actions they
14 felt necessary, based on the conditions they were finding. And is
15 that an example there were you describing that?
16 A. As I understand, the technician -- there was an apartment or
17 a building back close to the alley. And there was a person in
18 that building. And the technician, from what I understand,
19 actually had to somehow get the lock off of a gate to get the
20 person out of that building and actually evacuate them. And he
21 took it upon himself to make that happen.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you for the clarification. I don't have any
23 further questions.
24 DR. JENNER: Terrific. I'm looking around the room and I
25 don't see any additional questions. Mr. Rosenberg, thank you so

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1 much for your time and your assistance in this investigation. We
2 appreciate that every much. So, with that said, it's -- we'll
p.m.
3 call it 2:00 | and we're done.
4 MR. ROSENBERG: Thank you.
5 DR. JENNER: Thank you very much, sir.
6 (Whereupon, the interview was concluded.)
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1

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD

Interview of: BENNY ROSENBERG

Hampton Inn and Suites

Free State Reporting, Inc.

RACHAEL GUNARATNAM, Hazardous Materials Accident

STEPHEN JENNER, Ph.D., Human Performance Investigator

MICHAEL JONES, Accident Investigator

PHILLIP MURDOCK, Director of Engineering and Compliance

THOMAS TOBIN, Attorney

Free State Reporting, Inc.

Interview of Benny Rosenberg:

Free State Reporting, Inc.

3 MS. GUNARATNAM: Good afternoon. My name is Rachael

4 Gunaratnam and I am an investigator with the National

5 Transportation Safety Board. Today is March 3, 2018 and the time

6 is 3:43 p.m. We are currently at the Hampton Inn in Dallas,

7 Texas. We are here to investigate the house explosion at 3534

8 Espanola Drive in Dallas that occurred on Friday, February 23,

10 In this interview, we will be talking to Benny Rosenberg and

11 I will start by first going around the room. Please introduce

12 yourself, spell your name, and title.

13 My name is Rachael Gunaratnam, R-A-C-H-A-E-L, G-U-N-A-R-A-T-

14 N-A-M, hazmat investigator with the NTSB.

15 DR. JENNER: I'm Stephen Jenner, S-T-E-P-H-E-N, J-E-N-N-E-R,

16 a human performance investigator with the NTSB.

17 MR. ROSENBERG: Benny Rosenberg, B-E-N-N-Y,

18 R-O-S-E-N-B-E-R-G. I'm an operations manager for Atmos Energy.

19 MR. TOBIN: My name is Tom Tobin, T-O-B-I-N. I'm an attorney

20 with the Wilson Elser, E-L-S-E-R, law firm in New York.

21 MR. MURDOCK: Phillip Murdock, P-H-I-L-L-I-P, M-U-R-D-O-C-K.

22 I'm Director of Engineering and Compliance for Atmos Energy.

23 MR. JONES: Michael Jones, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, J-O-N-E-S, an

24 accident investigator with PHMSA.

25 INTERVIEW OF BENNY ROSENBERG

Free State Reporting, Inc.

4 positions you have, that kind of thing?

5 A. Okay. Started in 1974, been with the company 43 years. So

6 career has been several positions, starting in construction and

8 but that's where we started. After a period of time in

9 construction and maintenance, I was in the office of construction

11 been like a general clerk, but basically was responsible for

12 timesheets and things like that.

13 I believe it was in my seventh year, I became a supervisor

14 for the company of construction and maintenance. And then about a

15 year later, I was an instructor at our training center. This was

17 years. After that, I was supervisor again for a period of time,

18 not exactly sure the time frame; 43 years, 44 years is a lot of

21 A. But around 1994, I became what they called a team

22 coordinator, very similar to a supervisory role, and about a short

25 became TXU. More or less, we was bought by TXU Energy. And in

Free State Reporting, Inc.

1 that role, soon became a -- I believe they called it manager of

2 customer service over in the Fort Worth office.

4 became a operations manager, and I believe I've been in Dallas

6 there ever since.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you. So going back to February 23rd, can you go

9 incident, what time, and your communications with people, Kyle,

10 whoever, and just kind of timeline it out?

11 A. I was on my way to work that morning and while en route to

13 who called me to tell me there had been, I believe in his words, a

15 to determine where was this location that he was talking about.