PSV Closed System Force

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PSV Closed system Force #40425 01/24/11 11:37 PM
Nalibsyah Go
Member Dear All, Advanced

Registered: Who's Online
01/24/11 there is some issue that i need to clarify in this forum since i see that
Posts: 59 many expert in Piping Stress Engineering and COde Committe are 1 registered
Loc: Abu Dhabi visited this forum. (Mrragpicker), 8

The issue is about Force on PSV Closed system. Guests and 3 Spiders

As what i know that Force that show up when PSV in closed system online.
begin to firing is including in Impact Force so it is a dynamic event, but Key: Admin, Global Mod,
still we can use the quasi static method to analyze it by use the DLF Mod
factor.

As long as i know this event also not a static condition because the March
pressure will change rapidly when the PSV first firing. Su M Tu W Th F Sa

The problem of my concern is for this PSV Closed system i usually used
and consider not only the first impact/unbalanced forced in first elbow or 1 2
obstruction but also in the second elbow and other downstream this 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
PSV. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

I also read in Peng book, that he mentioned that the event when PSV in
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
closed system firing still consider as Non static condition, so from here i
can take the conclusion there will be no Balanced force, it means Impact 24 25 26 27 28 29 30
force will occurs in each elbow or obstruction but in opposite direction. 31
We can measure each of this Force if we know the opening time of the
PSV and multiply it with the length of each pipe section to get the Max. Forum Stats
Unbalanced force in each elbow or obstruction.
11620 Members
But here in my new assignement i found a different method for client
14 Forums
method, where Force downstream of PSV (other than force on first
15757 Topics
elbow) are consider to be balanced each other.
70770 Posts
I also found this method in one Engineering company that become a

trade mark for Piping Engineering. Max Online: 126 @

So for all Expert and Collegues here, i ask for your advice, amybe 05/09/18 04:29 PM
opinion about this Issue.

Hope that it can give another value for all of us here.
Thanks.

With Regards
Nalibsyah

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Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: Nalibsyah] #40429 01/25/11 04:22 AM
stressguy81
As per API 520 Part 2, Cl. 4.4.2

Member "

Registered:
07/03/08 Pressurerelief devices that relieve under steadystate flow conditions
Posts: 71 into a closed system usually do not transfer large forces and bending
Loc: India moments to the inlet system, since changes in pressure and velocity
within the closed system components are small.
.....

A complex time history analysis of the piping system may be required to
obtain the reaction forces and associated moments that are transferred
to the inlet piping system."

As you said in general practice, the momentum component is imposed
as a reaction force at PSV.
http://forums.coade.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showﬂat&Number=40440&Searchpage=10&Main=8903&Words=constant&Search=true#Post40440 1/6
generally divided as two cases,

Case1: When PSV pops up (Force imposed at PSV) and

Case2: When there is established flow (When the forces cancel each
other)

You might find this topic interesting

http://65.57.255.42/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=11775#Post11775

http://65.57.255.42/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=24685#Post24685

I case of having a long run reaction forces can be imposed at the first
elbow at a different case, ex: F1 at PSV and F2 at first elbow in the
establised flow condition, conservatively.

Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: stressguy81] #40430 01/25/11 06:35 AM
mariog
Member The only accident with PSVs in closed systems I know it is one in which

the PSV was wrong chosen and was chattering for years before piping
Registered:
09/29/07 was broken. It was a fatigue damage "assisted" by poor supports this
Posts: 665 was the conclusion of investigations. In my opinion it would have been
Loc: Romania avoided by common sense process/piping experience but also by field
operators feedback.

Reversing the point of view, you can see in field PSV arrangements that
cannot be qualified by today calculations but have had a satisfactorily
service for long time.

I think any calculation for PSV in closed systems is good because offers
the opportunity to review the related piping and helps providing stiff
supports. For this point of view the calculation must be encouraged.

In the same time, Iâ€™m in doubt that 99% of these calculations would
simulate what itâ€™s happening in field with PSV in a closed system.
That's why I don't want to say one approach is wrong and another one
is good.

In addition, when the Client/Company regulations are hard (and usually
it is the case, because it seems to be o hot topic!) you have to comply
with.

Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: mariog] #40431 01/25/11 07:33 AM
danb
Member I agree with mariog and stressguy81.

Registered:
04/22/05 I'd like to add the following.

Posts: 1311
Loc: ... Check should be done for pop forces and if the velocities are close to 1
mach, apply forces at elbows equal with w x v (flow times velocity)

Regards,
_________________________
Dan

Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: danb] #40434 01/25/11 07:46 AM
MoverZ
Member A further warning about Mach speed ..... it cannot in most cases be

exceeded in a PSV body due to choking. Since velocity is not directly
Registered:
addressed in the equations given, the formulas in API RP 520 used to
11/22/06 calculate reaction forces can give incredible results. If you check the

Posts: 1195 associated velocity it may be well in excess of Mach speed and thus
Loc: Hants, UK
impossible. A reduction to a realistic mass flow rate should give better
force results.

Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: MoverZ] #40435 01/25/11 08:17 AM
danb
Member Indeed, and this is in line with Norsok P001 limiting criteria ro x v2 less

than 200 000.
Registered:
04/22/05

Posts: 1311 However a rough formula w x v = ro x v2 x A is quite reasonable. (e.g.
Loc: ... for a 8" line and a ro x v2= 200 000, force will be 7534 N) Not big, not
small, but will lead to a lot of guides and/or stops.
_________________________
Dan

Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: MoverZ] #40440 01/25/11 09:56 AM
mariog
Member Dear MoverZ

Registered:
09/29/07 You say
Posts: 665
Quote:
Loc: Romania
Since velocity is not directly addressed in the equations given,
the formulas in API RP 520 used to calculate reaction forces
can give incredible results.

Well, I cannot blame the API formulas. Maybe the people applying API
formulas.

API formulas are based on "free jet" approach.

If a free jet is released in atmosphere or in a large volume, the piping
system will receive a reactive force.
This is the force that API counts as:

Reactive_Force= [mass flowrate]*[jet_velocity]+ [p_jet]*[area_jet]

where

mass flow rate must be the actual value (it is greater than the
designed flow rate, because the actual PSV orifice is larger than
minimum required!)

jet_velocity is the critical speed when the jet gas flow has Mach=1
feature (is counted in Fluid Mechanics as jet_velocity= sqrt(2*R*k*T/
((k+1)*M)), where notations are as in API, R is the universal perfect
gas constant , in SI is R=8314.5 J/kg mol/K.

p_jet is the gauge pressure in the released jet

area_jet is the internal area of piping at the point where the jet is
released

This is exactly the API formula, where the numerical coefficient is
sqrt(2*R), in SI units sqrt(2*8314.5)=129

Obviously, the formula is based on the "choked" condition i.e. Mach=1
and this is taken into consideration by counting jet_velocity=
sqrt(2*R*k*T/ ((k+1)*M)

A possible source of errors may be the term [p_jet]*[area_jet], because
it seems that "p" in chocked flow is somehow out of common
engineering perception and API does not give details on the subject.

I reattach a paper showing a simple way to evaluate pressure in
isentropic choked flow (Mach=1). You can see the same result in some
articles, but the fluid mechanics model is more complicated there.


My best regards.

Attachments

Choked_flow_pressure.pdf (814 downloads)

MoverZ
Member Thanks for the fluid mechanics lesson Mariog, I am well aware of theory.

My note was a warning since I have had occasion to check calculations
Registered:
11/22/06 where a small PSV apparently attracted a huge force, due exactly to the

Posts: 1195 error I outlined. People do make mistakes and far too many 'engineers'
Loc: Hants, UK apply equations blindly, because all too often they have found an
unchecked and nonvalidated Excel spreadsheet solution on some dodgy
company drive.

Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: danb] #40449 01/25/11 03:56 PM
mariog
Member Dan,

Registered:
09/29/07 I think your example may be written as "if there is a freejet exiting 8"
Posts: 665 piping area with (choked) parameters complying with rho*v^2=200000
Loc: Romania kg/(ms^2), the reaction force would be 7534 N".

For a closed system I would say it is a "better than nothing" criteria.

PS. I have a funny story with a PSV process issue in a big company that
after 2 months of Olga software calculation decided to have 24" size line
downstream of the 2"x4" piloted PSV. So 24" wasn't the subheader size,
it was the size connection to the subheader. The model was a visual
aggression and the calculation was "worse than nothing".

danb
Member I think that I will not rephase as the purpose of this was more trivial.

Registered:
04/22/05 I was talking about flow induced forces. Decent problems require decent

Posts: 1311 solutions, sort of "better than nothing". For complex problems, there are
Loc: ... other solutions and I am not one of the specialists that can solve them.

_________________________
Dan

Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: danb] #40462 01/26/11 08:52 AM
mariog
Member Dan,

Registered:
09/29/07 You were talking about flow induced forces in closed systems and I was
Posts: 665 talking on the fact rho*v^2 transposed in "force criteria" would be a
Loc: Romania criteria for forces due to "freejet" effect in open systems. I think also
that rho*v^2 is a steadystate criteria and does not address to the
"momentary, instantaneous forces that result when the valve first
opens".

The point is I have no evidence such criteria is a decent one in closed
system except the connection with subheader/header where a "free jet"
may exist.

The only certitude I have is that every stress specialist and Company
has the certitude that his/her/their criteria is decent. I'm not in position
to say they are right or not, so I accept their approach, criteria, etc.

It is interesting (for me) to see that the process people have the
certitude they don't know such decent criteria to evaluate roughly the
magnitude of forces in a closed system. I accept also their position.

Best regards.

Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: Nalibsyah] #43155 06/02/11 07:40 AM
Tengku_Syahdilan
Stress guy and others, i think i need to clarify what asked. My

Member concern is that when PSV first pop up there will be a travelling

wave downstream the PSV discharge or RV discharge. This load is
Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 56 not balanced each other. This force will have the same history
Loc: Indonesia shape throught out the system but the arriving time is different in
each point. This is why in API 520 as stress guy taken above
mention :

A complex time history analysis of the piping system may be
required to

obtain the reaction forces and associated moments that are
transferred to the inlet piping system."

and in ASME B31.1 Non Mandatory App. II Para II.2.2.2 :

...."However when a safety valve discharge is connect to a
relatively long run of pipe and suddenly opened, there is a period
of transient flow until the steady state discharge condition is
reached.

and in Para II.2.3.2 :

......"Relief Valves discharging into an enclosed piping system
create a momentary unbalanced forces which act on the piping
system during the first few milliseconds following relief valve lift.
The pressure waves travelling through the piping system following
rapid opening of the safety valve will cause bending moments in
the safety valve discharge piping and the reminder of the piping
system. In such a case, the designer must compute the magnitude
of the loads and perform approriate evaluation of their effects."

LC Peng book page 401403 so talk about this, where there will be
a net force impact on each leg (elbow or other obstruction)
downstream the RV or PSV discharge as a result of the traveling
wave or transient condition.

So what i mean is that we also have to considered the effect of
this transient load during pop not only at the first elbow ( i see in
some company standard they apply this two condition, during
steady state and pop up, but during pop up they only apply the
force directly upward and horisontal at the body of the Rv or
PSV.....i also have see some one post this kind of pictures in other
thread about PSV too).

Apply the load at n elbow/obstruction and n+1 elbow/obstruction,
but because it is quite complicated and we will not know the limit
of this travelling wave unless we perform simulation (maybe with
Boss fluid) or do the time history analysis for better and realistic
result, then it is common to assume to apply until the third
elbow/obstruction.

I have found a case where previous engineering company apply
the usual method (apply upward, and horizontal at valve body),
and the result the pump downstream of this RV system having a
trouble. so we fix it by apply and considered the transient effect
that not considered by previous company and now have been 3
years the pump still run smoothly.

_________________________
Tengku_Syahdilan

"From Failure we Learn"

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