» Forums Archive » Server management » UPS - how long will it last?

Super Fast Penguin Whirlpool Forums Addict

Hi, O.P.

I'm looking at getting a UPS.

It needs to power (calculations are approx, i hope they are right):

- 2 x Billion 7300GX modems 2 x (12V * 1A) = 2 x (12W) = 24W

- 1 x Linksys RV082 router (240V * 0.2A = 48W)
- 1 x 24 port HP Procurve 2524 switch (approx 36W)
- 1 x Dell PowerEdge 2850 with 2 x CPU's and 4 x hard drives (700W max)

TOTAL = 808W

I've read that 1.4VA = 1W (approx)

Which would mean my devices would consume 808*1.4 = 1131VA

So If i got a 3000VA UPS, would that mean i would get approx 3000/1131 = 2.6 hours?

With a 5000VA UPS, would i get around 5000/1131 = 4.4 hours?

Thanks,
Adam

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 3:42 pm AEST

Netpar Forum Regular

Hi there,

I would suggest you take trip to the APC site and dellups.com, they have configurators there where you
can punch it all in and it will let you know what you need.

Keep in mind that if you go 3KVA you have to get the wall socket changed and if you go 5 KVA that bad
boy has to be hardwired in on a 20 or 25 [cant remember which] Amp circuit.

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 4:14 pm AEST

Super Fast Penguin Whirlpool Forums Addict

Netpar writes... O.P.

I would suggest you take trip to the APC site and dellups.com, they have configurators there

Thanks, will do.

Keep in mind that if you go 3KVA you have to get the wall socket changed

Changed how? Different socket type or rewired for more power?

if you go 5 KVA that bad boy has to be hardwired in on a 20 or 25 [cant remember which] Amp circuit.

Can any electrician do this?

Thanks,
Adam

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 4:28 pm AEST

Magus Whirlpool Forums Addict

Super Fast Penguin writes...

Changed how? Different socket type or rewired for more power?

3000VA usually use a 15A socket

5000VA use a 20A socket.

You might want to think about a 2000VA+battery packs. Much more cost effective since you have only a
few items on it.

Remember to consider the other effects of power loss. eg A/C

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 4:34 pm AEST

marc Whirlpool Forums Addict

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 4:34 pm AEST

Super Fast Penguin Whirlpool Forums Addict

So either way for a 3000VA or a 5000VA UPS i will need to get an electrician to rewire the socket? O.P.

Are my calculations above regarding running time approximately correct?

Magus writes...

You might want to think about a 2000VA+battery packs.

Sorry i'm new to all this... what exactly are battery packs? I know you can get replacement internal battery
packs when the batteries are old, but do you mean an external battery pack for extra power when the
mains fail? How do you recharge these and how do you hook them up to the devices/UPS?

Thanks again.

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 5:05 pm AEST

Jason-k Forum Regular

The "VA" rating on the unit has absolutely nothing to do with the runtime it will give to a load. VA = Volts x
Amps. It's the formula for DC power(Watts). They specify this rather than true power (Somewhat less with
AC, due to voltage and current not being in phase). This is the Output power of the UPS. Again, I must
stress, this is NOT any indication of runtime. The only variables in runtime are the battery capacity and
the load power.
You must look at the manufacturer specifications for runtime at a given load. ie, 18 minutes @ 700W
etc...

You choose the UPS on the size of the load you will be using, plus a bit more.

I would expect a minimum of 1500VA for your requirements. Then you need to shop around for a UPS
with that output capacity, that has the required runtime capacity.

You're going to be spending huge dollars to get 4 hours runtime with that load.

To give you an idea, I have an Acer G540M2 twin quad core server with dual PSU's, Cisco 3960G switch,
Cisco 1841 router and 2 utility PC's basically idling...all running from an APC SmartUPS 2200XL (Extended
run), and I tested 2 weeks ago in an outage and had it to 5% capacity by the time the server shut down, at
31 minutes, so add a few minutes and she'd be dead.

All that runtime for around $2k. Not cheap.

EDIT: fixed numbers from fat fingers

posted 2011-Jun-23, 5:38 pm AEST (edited 2011-Jun-23, 5:42 pm
ref: AEST)

~~Adam~~ Whirlpool Forums Addict

Super Fast Penguin writes...

i would get approx 3000/1131 = 2.6 hours?

3KVA is the maximum load the UPS can handle.

The AMP HOUR rating of the battery system is what determines runtime.

eg a 12V battery with a 7AH rating will run a 12V 1A load for 7 hours, or a 12V 2A load for 3.5 hours.

7AH/1A = 7 Hours
7AH/2A = 3.5 Hours

Our 12 V Sealed Lead Acid (SLA) 7AH battery has an energy density of 12V at 7Amps for 1 hour = 84Watt
Hours = 5040 Joules.

except that's not quite correct because you have inefficiencies in the electronics and in the battery itself
so your much more likely to get a 12V 1A load run for 6 hours not 7.
It gets worse the more your battery ages and remember sealed lead acid is only really good for about
300 discharge cycles as a rough figure.

As a rough estimate your 800 watt system will require 10 of the normal 12V SLA batteries to remain
online for 1 hour, but you'd wan't to double this.

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 5:58 pm AEST

Monsieur le Comte Whirlpool Forums Addict

couldn't you buy 3 x 1500VA UPS and daisy chain them?

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 6:14 pm AEST

greeniedotau Whirlpool Enthusiast

**Dr Zoidberg** writes...

couldn't you buy 3 x 1500VA UPS and daisy chain them?

This would introduce some large inefficiencies converting AC > DC > AC > DC > AC > DC > AC.

For example, my APC 1kVA UPS with 400w of load adds a 100w overhead.

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 7:05 pm AEST

Super Fast Penguin Whirlpool Forums Addict

What would happen if i put a 3000VA UPS on a normal 10A point? Would the circuit break constantly O.P.

trip?

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 8:09 pm AEST

Grubs Whirlpool Forums Addict

Super Fast Penguin writes...

What would happen if i put a 3000VA UPS on a normal 10A point? Would the circuit break constantly trip?

Only if you put more than 10A load on the output power side or if the combined load + the current
required to re-charge flat batteries after an outage exceeded 10A.

A 3000VA UPSs normally comes with a 15A plug that will not fit in a 10A socket. A grotty hack is possible
but not advisable. I did run my UPS from a 10A socket for a couple of weeks after we moved house until
the sparkie could install the 15A socket.

Note that it is a simple matter to have a sparkie change your power point to a 15A socket to do the job
properly.

With respect to run time, it isnt the 3000VA or 1000VA that determines your runtime – its the capacity of
the batteries. You can get a 3000VA UPS with quite a small battery (= short runtime) and you can get
1500VA UPS with additional plug-in batteries for super long runtime. A second hand 3000VA UPS from
ebay might have the ability to support 15A of load but the shagged out batteries may give you less than
5mins of runtime.

I think you'd get far more runtime using a battery pack like this (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/APC-Back-
UPS-Pro-External-Battery-Pack-BR24BPG-/150612515705?pt=AU_Components&hash=item2311349b79 )
and the 1500VA UPS it plugs into that you'd get out of a single 3000VA UPS.
posted 2011-Jun-23, 8:47 pm AEST (edited 2011-Jun-23, 8:57 pm
ref: AEST)

Super Fast Penguin Whirlpool Forums Addict

Grubs writes... O.P.

Note that it is a simple matter to have a sparkie change your power point to a 15A socket to do the
job properly.

So it won't require the electrician to run thicker dedicated power lead for the UPS? Just a change of
socket?

With respect to run time, it isnt the 3000VA or 1000VA that determines your runtime – its the capacity of
the batteries.

Yep, someone mentioned this above. So the VA rating means it could power more devices without
overloading the UPS but has nothing to do with how long it will run?
I think you'd get far more runtime using a battery pack like this

I'll keep that in mind. So it just hooks into a UPS and extends run time? Will the UPS charge the battery
pack? It will still be okay on a 10A socket?

Thanks.

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 9:00 pm AEST

Power Protect Forum Regular

Hi Adam,

Some good points made already, I'd just like to add that the amp-hour rating of batteries is not linear and
is based upon a 10 or 20 hour discharge. For a 7AH battery you could expect to achieve 10 hours when
discharging at 0.7A, but if you discharge is at 7 amps you will only get 30 minutes.

What sort of budget do you have for this? Running the server the minimum you should be looking at is a
true sinewave type line interactive unit, depending on the model it may or may not come with the
capability to connect additional batteries.

- Jason

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 9:38 pm AEST

Super Fast Penguin Whirlpool Forums Addict

Power Protect writes... O.P.

the amp-hour rating of batteries is not linear

Thanks for pointing that out!

What sort of budget do you have for this?

Not a lot. Ideally i would like to spend under 1k. I think it's achievable with second hand stuff from ebay,
there are some cheap APC rack mountable UPS units which include batteries for this price. My friend can
get normal 12v alarm batteries quite cheap (i believe alarm batteries are the same?) so i can always
change them without spending a lot.

It's one of those things, uptime is important, but rather than spending 1k+ on a UPS which may only be
required 1 day in a year, i would rather spend the extra on upgrading the dell server which is used 365
days a year.

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 10:01 pm AEST

rocky0534 Whirlpool Enthusiast

Super Fast Penguin writes...

UPS which may only be required 1 day in a year

That is one porblem with a UPS unit (some)... When they go to battery after so long after not being on
battery they die way before they shoud..., meaning battery replacement.

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 10:33 pm AEST

Grubs Whirlpool Forums Addict

In my experience in Melbourne... if the power is out for more than 20 minutes its probably going to be
out for many hours and you'll be powering down anyhow. Planning for 3 or 4 hours runtime compared to
say planning for only 20mins runtime really wont save you from many more outages.

ref: posted 2011-Jun-23, 11:13 pm AEST

togenshi Whirlpool Enthusiast

Grubs writes...

In my experience in Melbourne... if the power is out for more than 20 minutes its probably going to be
out for many hours and you'll be powering down anyhow. Planning for 3 or 4 hours runtime compared to
say planning for only 20mins runtime really wont save you from many more outages.

Unless you are fortunate to have your office near a hospital. Clean power and its prioritized.

ref: posted 2011-Jun-24, 10:27 am AEST

Magus Whirlpool Forums Addict

I would still recommend a smaller UPS with several battery packs. This creates a single UPS with a long
run time.

I am assuning your PE2850 does not have redundant PSU at 700W.

In most cases, I would recomend a max of 2 hrs for commercial installs. This is because AC and lights are
also off, resulting in H&S issues.
Remember your phone system also.

For home use, I would recomend 30 min max.

ref: posted 2011-Jun-24, 11:38 am AEST