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Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621729 - 09/23/05 10:19 PM
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SEARCH Bill Tonight, the 7th tuning of the day on last minute notice, a
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Bremmer touring group found me as the only person who would even -------------------
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Member never seen anymore). I said, "Sure, no sweat at all (even
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Items in Registered: being a 12 hour day, 7:30 AM to 7:30 PM), I used to tune one
Piano World's 08/21/02 or two of those a week during the 1980's". (ad 125)
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In PianoSupplies.com Loc: Madison, WI The piano was just a tad flat. I used my "generic" offsets for
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I tuned out the octaves roughly by ear to raise the pitch, then (ad) Summer Keys
went back over and did what I have been writing about
(ad) Pianoteq recently: make all octaves, 5ths, octave and 5ths and double
octaves "agree". That means, effectively, all Equal Beating but
sounding either beatless or very nearly so. This, on a piano
that most people say is virtually impossible to tune, especially
in the bass.

I finished tuning promptly at 7 PM, the deadline, and as soon

as I did, they opened the doors and a bunch of freaky looking
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kids ran in and took their seats. The pianist tried it out briefly, MH
(ad) Pearl River mostly checking the bass octaves which often growl terribly
and flashed me the "OK" sign. The producer promptly wrote Ad (the Piano Store)
(ad) Lindeblad me a check from his check book and said, "I REALLY
Piano appreciate you doing this on such short notice. I tried several
other people who refused, saying those instruments were
obsolete and could never be tuned satisfactorily but you
seemed to know what you were doing and the band is
obviously pleased".

The point is, that even with an unequal temperament and the
 wildest of inharmonicity. the compromise between octaves and (125ad) Dampp
Chaser
5ths works every time and is so easy to effect, even under
pressure and fatigue. That is why I sometimes call my octave
tuning method, "mindless octaves". This means that even if
there are errors in your temperament equality, you can
effectively even them out in your upper and lower octaves. It
does NOT become a dilemma, it RESOLVES any dilemma you
may have! It is done quickly and effortlessly and the reason I
(ad) P B Guide often call them "MINDLESS OCTAVES".

Who's Online I think you ought to try this with the Marpurg temperament I
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published and for which you wrote the graph. The tempered
125 registered Multiple Forums
5ths would theoretically be 6th comma (4 cent) 5ths. I can still
(ando, alerique, Is there an
get the cleanest, most beautiful sounding tuning using my
anamnesis, accordion section
method which seems to disprove the notion that it would only
Anita Potter, to this forum?
work with the most perfected
36251, agraffe, by darticus
25 invisible), _________________________ 02/07/16 08:00 AM
1506 Guests Bill Bremmer RPT Need help! Anyone
and 7 Spiders Madison WI USA know about Kawai
online. www.billbremmer.com DS-8B ?
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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621730 - 09/23/05 10:37 PM
Find Piano 02/06/16 05:10 PM
Professionals- Bill Last paragraph was written to Jason Kanter who makes Speaking of
*Piano Dealers - Piano Bremmer beautiful graphs and was not intended to be copied here, but Estonia ...
Stores RPT what the heck. He seemed to question (as others have) by BruceD
*Piano Tuners 3000 Post Club whether the method would work on anything but a perfect ET 02/06/16 02:15 PM
*Piano Teachers Member but I had told him that it does indeed work with all mild well
*Piano Movers temperaments from Thomas Young and Antonio Vallotti on up. Forum Stats
*Piano Restorations Registered: If you'd like to try it personally, see my article written many 82,504
*Piano Manufacturers 08/21/02 years ago, "How to Tune TEMPERED OCTAVES": Registered
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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621731 - 09/25/05 02:16 PM
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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621732 - 09/26/05 12:26 AM

Bill Well, now at least we finally agree on something! 5th's do

Bremmer become expanded higher on up. Steve Fairchild RPT proved it
RPT long ago.
3000 Post Club
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Bill Bremmer RPT
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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621733 - 09/26/05 01:12 AM

gryphon Up until recently I owned a CP-70B which I tuned myself.

Yikes! 10000 (Bought it brand new in 1978). It only has one or two strings
Post Club per note, and I simply used a guitar tuner and my ears. I
Member would never think of doing it with my Estonia 190, but the
CP-70 was easy and I was *never* dissatisfied with the result.
Registered: Heck, players tune hammered dulcimers themselves daily
08/09/01 where every note is a unison, why not an electric piano? It's
Posts: 11678 really not a big deal in my opinion. Maybe it won't be as
Loc: Okemos, MI "perfect" as your tuning, but it's not going to last 6, 9, 12
months, either. (Although they can be surprisingly stable if you
don't take them on the road). What does your tuning on this
piano sound like after a month or two? For that matter, what
significant differences are you going to notice right away?
You're playing on an amplified short stringed instrument.
Probably not softly playing Debussy solo, either.

I'm not trying to denigrate your work, but why didn't the
owner tune his own? A simple star head wrench is $23. I'm
surprised to read you tuned two of these a week in the 80's. I
thought every band tuned their own instruments. I guess not.

The CP-70/80 is still a great instrument.

_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621734 - 09/26/05 03:50 PM

Jens gryphon,
Schlosser
fine piano tuning is an art. It always was and always will be.
Full Member The method you describe will produce acceptable results for
some players and maybe even more listeners but the more
Registered: discerning people (on eighter side) will definately notice the
12/31/02 difference. Your method will result in a bass which is tuned to
Posts: 262 high and a treble section which is tuned to low (not enough
Loc: Leipzig, stretch in both cases). Also a guitar tuner (and other simple
Germany cromatic instrument tuners) have the problem that the
instruments they use will not allow for a precise enough
reading of the pitch, therefore the temperament will be flawed
as well.
 Best regards,
Jens

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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621735 - 09/27/05 12:14 PM

BDB I tuned one for Mongo Santamaria once, and another for
Yikes! 10000 Phish, and a few more. Often they were even more difficult to
Post Club tune if you couldn't get the electronics working! They have a
Member lot of problems with breaking strings.

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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621736 - 09/27/05 12:59 PM

gryphon Yes, I understand what you're saying. I hope my post didn't

Yikes! 10000 come across different from the way I meant it. I only meant
Post Club that a home-tuning on this would sound great compared to its
Member condition before, and however "not-perfect" it was compared
to what you guys who really know what you're doing do would
Registered: pale in comparison to the guitar being off and drifting analog
08/09/01 oscillators.
Posts: 11678
_________________________
Loc: Okemos, MI
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621737 - 09/27/05 02:38 PM

John I've used this method as well on my clavichord and

Citron harpsichord. This is a quick enough tuning to get the 4-octave
3000 Post Club double strung and single instruments tuned. The four octave
Member C/E-c''' and C/E - e''' don't have much of a spread to worry
about things being too flat.
Registered:
07/15/05 Most people don't notice that they are not in the perfect piano-
Posts: 3925 tuning, and I find as the performer that they sound good
Loc: Haverhill, enough in all the keys that I play them in. The music in
Massachusetts particular doesn't have many sharps or flats compared to
much later piano music.

In the late 1970's, after deciding on not going into music, I

looked into the becoming a piano technician. I applied and was
accepted at the North Bennett street and New England
Conservatory, but I decided again to follow the new-found
boom of computers instead.

Having said this, I would never tune my piano, and will gladly
hire a RPT to do the job for me. I have way too much respect
for the skills and work that you guys and gals do to make
these beautiful instruments work the way they are intended.

John

_________________________
Nothing.

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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621738 - 09/27/05 05:33 PM

Jens Harpsichords and clavichords do not have any inharmonicity
Schlosser due to very thin strings. Whatever applies to piano tuning is
not valid when it comes to tuning a harpsichord. These
Full Member instruments don't need any stretch (inharmonicity is the main
reason for doing stretch on a piano) and can therefore be
Registered: tuned easily with a cromatic tuner. It is also much easier to
12/31/02 handle string tension since it is much lower then on a piano.
Posts: 262
Loc: Leipzig, Best wishes,
Germany Jens

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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621739 - 09/28/05 12:47 AM

gryphon Double post

Yikes! 10000
_________________________
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"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
Member
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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621740 - 09/28/05 01:07 AM

gryphon Originally posted by John Citron:

Yikes! 10000 Quote:
Post Club
Member I would never tune my piano, and will gladly hire a RPT
to do the job for me. I have way too much respect for the
Registered: skills and work that you guys and gals do to make these
08/09/01
beautiful instruments work the way they are intended.[/b]
Posts: 11678 Ah, but are you confusing a M&H or Baldwin or S&S or
Loc: Okemos, MI Bechstein or B�sendorfer with the CP-70? That's what we're
talking about. Let's not get carried away.

I had a real affection for my CP-70, but let's face it. I'm saying
that anyone with a room-temperature IQ can tune a CP-70.
Yes, on day-one they won't be the same, but how long before
the differences between the two tunings are negligible?

If I tried to tune a real 7' grand piano (M&H, etc. above) I'd
have to really be sharp, er, good at my job (no pun intended).
But the CP-70?

You're not trying to get three unisons beating properly. The

strings are half the length of a real piano. The tuning stability
is less than a real piano. Really, how can a "professional"
tuning once or twice a year on an instrument like this compare
with an idiot like me hitting my wrench whenever I want over
a cup of coffee?

The original poster complained that the Yamaha CP's weren't

stable tuning platforms. In light of this, especially in light of
this, why shouldn't the player tune it themselves? You can do
it monthly, fortnightly, daily free of charge if need be.

Just in case someone doesn't know what piano is being

discussed:

_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
 Wheels

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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621741 - 09/28/05 01:08 AM

gryphon Aahh!! Triple post. But while I'm here, how does this differ
Yikes! 10000 from a hammered dulcimer on steroids?
Post Club
_________________________
Member
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Registered:
Wheels
08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621742 - 09/28/05 09:35 AM

Bill I'd certainly give Gryphon the benefit of the doubt that he
Bremmer could tune out the octaves in a way that was satisfactory to
RPT him. Also, as he says, the kind of music played, usually on a
3000 Post Club set with other loudly amplified instruments and a drumset, the
Member precision demanded for solo piano was often not required.

Registered: Yes, many of the groups back in the 1980's did tune their own
08/21/02 pianos with a Korg or a Peterson Strobe Tuner. But often, they
Posts: 3673 did find their own efforts to be unsatisfactory and hired a
Loc: Madison, WI professional tuner to do the job. I was often complemented on
USA how "clear" I got them to sound. Surely, if someone tuned
every string just to theoretical indications on an ETD, the bass
would growl terribly and the treble would sound very flat. That
is what those who hired a professional tuner paid to have done
better. I was often asked how I did better than the ETD which
was assumed to be perfect but I had no explanation to offer
other than "ear" tuning was just better than "electronic".

I never started to introduce well tempering into the mix until

the very end of the era when I used to tune these regularly
but I had used my octave tuning approach all along. It is what,
along with careful unison tuning, made my tunings sound so
clear. These days, I only tune one of these CP-70's or CP-80's
(with 88 keys) every other year or so but I do have one local
professional musician customer who has a CP-80 in his studio
where his band practices and records. He has me tune it about
every other year which is all it really needs. I am puzzled by
the statements that these instruments are unstable because
by their nature, with no soundboard to expand and contract,
once they are tuned solidly and initial stretching of the strings
has settled, they can stay in tune for very long periods of time.

Sadly, they are now considered obsolete by most itinerate

groups, being replaced by digitally recorded sampled sound
electronic keyboards, some of which have stretched tunings
and even modifiable temperaments. My Quasi Equal/Victorian
temperament however adds to the appeal of having one of
these instruments over a "fake" piano. There has to be a
reason why some people still prefer these over what has
largely replaced them. I wonder if they might make a
comeback? Does anyone know if they are actually being made
anymore or completely discontinued?

_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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 Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621743 - 10/01/05 12:44 AM

gryphon Sadly they are no longer being manufactured. I sold mine to a

Yikes! 10000 guy from Wisconsin last year. From Madison, if I remember
Post Club correctly!
Member
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
Registered:
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08/09/01
Wheels
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621744 - 10/12/05 02:57 AM

Colin I have a CP80 in my collection of instruments which once

Crawford belonged to English 'barrow-boy crooner' (!) David Essex. It
was as new when I purchased it which says much for Mr.
Full Member Essex's piano playing I guess!
It was bought not for its capability of providing an authentic
Registered: piano sound, I have pianos which do that quite sufficiently, but
09/29/05 for the distinctive CP80 sound as used by many '70s
Posts: 438 supergroups.
Loc:
Cheltenham, The tuning chart which accompanies the piano illustrates the
Gloucestershire, severe octave stretching required to make it sound 'in tune'
U... and as previous posters have said, once you're used to its
foibles, tuning is very possible and the thing actually sounds
good. So good in fact that I have ended up using it more than
any of my other pianos!

It also has the useful side effect that unamplified it makes a

great practice piano, since the sound created by the strings is
very audible whilst being quiet enough not to be heard in the
next room and the Yamaha action is capable of good results.

My small observation is that the tuning on these beasts is very

stable; the lack of a wooden soundboard in the loop must have
the most influence on this, and in any case is easier and
clearer to tune than a good 75% of the small US-built spinets
of the Baldwin / Kimball / WurliTzer and similar from the same
era that I've encountered in the UK.

Am I alone in thinking this?

_________________________
G.Colin Crawford MPTA

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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621745 - 10/13/05 05:22 AM

Colin Quote:
Crawford
Sadly, they are now considered obsolete by most itinerate
Full Member
groups, being replaced by digitally recorded sampled
sound electronic keyboards, some of which have stretched
Registered: tunings and even modifiable temperaments. My Quasi
09/29/05 Equal/Victorian temperament however adds to the appeal
Posts: 438 of having one of these instruments over a "fake" piano.
Loc: There has to be a reason why some people still prefer
Cheltenham, these over what has largely replaced them. I wonder if
Gloucestershire, they might make a comeback? Does anyone know if they
U... are actually being made anymore or completely
discontinued? [/QB]

The CP70/80 range is completely discontinued, but there is a

small renaissance here in the UK led by indie band Keane, who
have created a following for the instrument. Apologies to
Sakura for the photo, but it was the best one on the web!
 In the last year I've tuned five of them excluding my own
(which hasn't been tuned in two years and is still tolerably
good!) and one of the rarer but inferior Kawai equivalent. This
may be because I'm known as a technician who is sympathetic
towards them.

Values are picking up, and a few firms specialising in electric

pianos such as WurliTzer and Rhodes have added the CP range
to the list of instruments that they will restore. I sold my tatty
CP70-B for $1,100 when I replaced it with my immaculate
CP80 for which I paid a mere $500 four years ago. These days
a tatty but good CP will fetch $2,000 here in the UK, but then
a good Wurli EP200 will fetch $1,500 or more if it's an early
version in a good colour.

As an addition to the above, if anybody has an early

instruction manual for a CP80 that they will part company
with, I'd be interested in buying it.

_________________________
G.Colin Crawford MPTA

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Re: Yamaha CP-70 Tuning for Concert #621746 - 11/06/05 04:23 PM

Marsupio Colin,

Junior Member how would you qualify the CP80 actions in comparison to a
good grand piano ? BTW, I have the Yamaha CPs manuals...
Registered:
09/10/05
Posts: 4
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