Air Date: 1/13/2020

The Upgrade by Lifehacker

Episode 111 - How to Get a Divorce, With Divorce Lawyer Jacqueline
Newman

Melissa ​Hello and welcome to The Upgrade, the podcast from the team at Lifehacker,
where we help you improve your life one week at a time. I'm Melissa Kersh, editor in chief
of Lifehacker.

Alice ​And I'm Alice Bradley Lifehacker’s deputy editor.

Melissa ​And today, we're learning how to get a divorce.

Alice ​Yes, it may not sound like the most upbeat way to kick off the new year, but hey,
lawyers around the country have unofficially dubbed January divorce month. So happy
divorce month, Melissa,.

Melissa ​And happy divorce month to you, Alice.

Alice ​I thank you.

Melissa ​In honor of this momentous month, we're chatting with divorce attorney
Jacqueline Newman, whose new book is “The New Rules of Divorce 12 Secrets to
Protecting Your Wealth, Health and Happiness.”

Jacqueline Newman ​One of the things I say is if you're sure you want to get divorced, you
need to be clear about the fact that you're not going to have your child on your roof every
single night. And when people say "I absolutely—that's not even on the table, I 100
percent I will never, ever be in a situation where my child does not sleep under the same
roof as I do." I say, "Well, then you're not ready to get divorced."

Alice ​After our chat with Jacqueline, we'll listen to a bit of our 2018 interview with another
divorce lawyer and longtime friend of the upgrade, James J. SEXTON.

Melissa ​What questions would you be asking yourself before you and your partner get
married?

James J Sexton ​You know, I think one of the first things that people should talk about in a
very candid way is how they're going to have conversations in the marriage. So it's like a
conversation about the conversation. I think that's incredibly important.

Melissa ​Hey, Alice.

Alice ​Yes, Melissa?

Melissa ​Do you think all of these smart voices about divorce are going to make our
listeners get a divorce?

Alice ​Hundred percent. Yes. It's going to be a weird spike.

Melissa ​Yeah.

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Alice ​It's, you know, statisticians will be talking about The Upgrade. The Upgrade spike.

Melissa ​Yeah. It was so informative that, it turned out that an entire audience of a
podcasts, a vast audience.

Alice ​Or I don't know, I think it's gonna to talk people out of getting divorced because it
does seem very complicated and messy.

Melissa ​And expensive.

Alice ​And expensive.

Melissa ​I am quite shocked at how expensive divorce is. We talked a little bit with
Jacqueline about that. We also talked about a recent movie about divorce, Marriage Story,
which made us both think of and then begin weeping at the memory of one of our favorite
divorce movies, Kramer vs. Kramer.

Alice ​Oh, my God. Yes.

Melissa ​The scene where Dustin Hoffman makes the French toast in his like world's
greatest dad coffee mug.

[Kramer vs. Kramer clip]

Alice ​I feel like Kramer vs. Kramer was a lot harder to watch than Marriage Story.
Marriage Story was it was a walk in the park.

Melissa ​I totally agree with you. Kramer vs. Kramer was very emotional. I mean, it may
have to do with the fact that I don't know. I mean, come at me, but I don't think that Adam
Driver and Scarlett Johansen can quite hold a candle to Dustin Hoffman and Meryl Streep.

Alice ​Well come at me, but I think millennials just can't handle real drama.

Melissa ​Whoa!

Alice ​Yeah, that kid was in mortal peril in Kramer vs. Kramer.

Melissa ​You are right.

Alice ​What's the worst thing that happens to that kid? He gets, he gets yanked in different
directions at one point.

Melissa ​He has to have two Halloween's one of them in a hotel room with his dad.

Alice ​Cry me a fucking river.

Melissa ​Well, this isn't about Marriage Story. It's about divorce. That's a very serious topic.

Alice ​Yes. So let's stop laughing.

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Melissa ​So I'm not even married, and I found it fascinating to learn about the ins and outs
of divorce.

Alice ​Well, really, talk me out of the whole thing.

Melissa ​Oh, good.

Alice ​'Cause you know I was on the fence. Whoops. Should I not have said that?

Melissa ​Does Scott, listen to this.

Alice ​He sure does.

Melissa ​Perfect.

Alice ​And now it's time for the interview. Our guest this week is Jacqueline Newman, an
author and New York based divorce lawyer who's been practicing matrimonial law for 20
years. She is the author of “Soon-to-Be Ex: A Guide to Your Perfect Divorce and
Relaunch,” and, “Soon-to-Be Ex for Men: Preserving Wealth, Fatherhood, and Sanity
During Divorce.”

Melissa ​Jacqueline's new book is “The New Rules of Divorce: Twelve Secrets to
Protecting Your Wealth, Health and Happiness.” She joined us via Skype to talk to us
about how to determine whether or not you're ready for a divorce. And the ins and outs of
the process if you do decide to proceed.

Melissa ​Hey, Jacqueline, thank you so much for being here.

Jacqueline Newman ​Thanks so much for having me.

Melissa ​So we have recently learned that it's divorce month, that January is divorce
month. Is this actually a thing and why?

Jacqueline Newman ​It is actually a thing. And the reason being is that if you think about
it, you know, obviously nobody wants to start any kind of divorce action during the
holidays. And, you know, I tell people, usually if they come into my office, I said, if you
don't start it after Halloween, pretty much, you might as well wait to the beginning of the
year. And so, you know, January is obviously a time that people want to start fresh. And,
you know, a lot of them don't want to end that year the way they started the first one. And
so what happens is, you know, you wait till after the holidays to get through it, because
holidays are obviously a tough time. And you don't want to put any summons in anyone's
stocking, nor do you want to be in a situation where your children, you know, you ruin
anyone's holidays. And then come January, you know, a lot of people will come in and
there's a lot of consultations because what happens is you want to be educated, which is
something I recommend to everyone. You always want to make an educated decision,
especially when you're dealing with a divorce. And that's something that's so important in
your life. And so people will come in in January and they'll become very informed. We do a
lot of initial consultations. A lot of people come in and they just want to know what it would
look like. And then I find that usually it will fade out a little bit in February. But then come
the spring. People start start actions and then they really move forward in their divorce.

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Melissa ​So what is the typical if there is a typical process of like there's being unhappy in
a marriage and then there's taking that step to go to speak to somebody who can help
them legally dissolve that marriage? How does that happen? What is the process in
someone's head?

Jacqueline Newman ​Well, you know, it's an excellent question. And I think everybody has
a different process. But usually what I find is that, you know, people are scared to get
divorced and there's a lot of reasons not to get divorced. You know, even if you're in an
unhappy marriage, a lot of people stay in very unhappy marriages for various reasons.
And one of the questions I ask clients when they first come in, I say, "Are you sure?"
Because if they hesitate for even a moment, I say, "I want you to go see a therapist."
Because at the end of the day, it is such an incredibly difficult process. It's emotionally
expensive. It's financially expensive, and it's very hard to turn back from. So I'm a big
advocate of like, make sure you're sure. So to answer your question specifically is that I
think that people are unhappy in their marriages for various reasons. I think they're
unsatisfied, you know, and we're assuming there's no obvious things such as abuse or
anything like that. And then I think again, I think they come in January usually to just kind
of see like, what would this look like? Because, you know, there are millions of rumors out
there. And there are so many people that have these images of what divorce is like,
whether they watch it on TV or whether they have a best friend's cousin's brother, sister
who got divorced. But really, I think at that point they come in, they say, "I want to know
what this looks like." And then I. Then they make educated decisions about how to move
forward.

Alice ​And do you kind of walk them through the process of how of what that's going to look
like in the future?

Melissa ​And can you walk us through what that might look like?

Jacqueline Newman ​I absolutely do. I think it's really important for all of my clients to walk
out with a five year plan, a ten year plan and whatever is that. So usually what will happen
is we'll sit and we'll kind of go through, you know, just kind of walking through the initial
consultation is that, you know, I'll get very basic information. So I'll be in a position to kind
of give advice because I'll know all the background. And then from there, you know, one of
the first things I do, I say, you know, once I got the basics down, I say, "Alright, so tell me
why you're here." And usually that will open up people explaining what happened, whether
it's, you know, something that's been happening for a really long time, whether they just
found out information that's changed the way they look at their marriage. And then from
there, it's really a question of me kind of navigating. So, for example, let's say there's
custody issues. Let's say someone's very concerned about children. And, you know, they
say that, you know, let's say I'm representing the wife. I'm gonna be stereotypical for the
purpose of this conversation just to kind of move ahead with the pronouns. So let's just say
that I'm representing a wife who I'd say who has been a stay at home mom. And she
comes in and she's very concerned about the fact that, let's say the husband cheats and
she says, all right, I want out of this marriage. And so we talk about I say, "OK. You know,
let's talk about what that looks like." And we'll really kind of go through the steps of. All
right. You know, one of the things I say is that if you're sure you want to get divorced. You
need to be clear about the fact that you're not going to have your child on your roof every
single night. Like you just have to know that unless there's like a real reason why, you
know, your spouse should not be with the children. That's not going to happen. And there
are going to be holidays you're not going to be spending with your children and you need

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to be OK with. And when people say, "I absolutely that's not even on the table, I 100
percent I will never, ever be in a situation where my child does not sleep under the same
roof as I do." I say, "Well, then you're not ready to get divorced." I mean, that's what it
comes down to. And that's what I was saying before. There's a lot about the timing of
when you get divorced, you know, and I consider myself to be somewhat of a divorce
strategist, because really one of the things I do in initial consultations and throughout my
representation of people is really look at the strategy. Because while the law plays a role, I
think, in divorce, it plays much less of a role. I think it's really more psychological chess.
And, you know, with the goal being that you can exit your marriage in a way that is as
healthy and respectful as possible and hopefully maintain some relationship with your
spouse, because if there are children involved, you're gonna be co parenting with this
person for the rest of your life.

Alice ​Do you ever recommend people go see a mediator instead of a divorce lawyer?
What is what does a mediator do?

Jacqueline Newman ​Oh, absolutely. So, you know, just to give you a little background, to
give you context, you know, I tell people the three ways to get divorced. There's mediation,
there's collaborative law and there's litigation. And, you know, my firm actually happens to
do all three. So I do mediation as well. So a divorce lawyer, just to be clear, and this is,
again, a very common misconception, a divorce lawyer can be a mediator. There are
mediators that are therapists as well. But generally, you know, most mediators, I would
say, are probably divorce lawyers. So I am a big advocate of if you can do mediation. I
think it's a great way to go. Usually it's less expensive. Usually it's less adversarial. But it's
a self-selecting process. Mediation isn't right for everyone for various reasons, whether
there's huge power imbalances, whether people are just not comfortable, whether you
know, someone's and when I call the financial dark where they just don't know, you know,
they don't know any of the finances and they don't trust their spouse to be able to be
transparent in them. And, you know, again, even if all these things exist, I will have
conversations with clients and absolutely explain to the mediation. And a lot of times I'll
say, you know, sometimes it could be worth one session because at the end of the day,
the worst thing is you wasted an hour and, you know, whatever the mediator's fee is. But if
you're able to resolve even some of the more emotional things, such as custody, for an
example, then I think that's a great thing. And, you know, then you're saving yourself
hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal bills and in therapy bills if you can
avoid a custody trial. And then if you have to litigate about financials, you can do that. I
mean, it happens.

Melissa ​So what is a mediator, specifically?

Jacqueline Newman ​A mediator is when it's someone who's, you know, obviously trained
in mediation. And as I said, usually it's an attorney. There are therapists who do it and it's
a person who will sit with the two parties and they'll act in a neutral capacity. And so what
they will really do is they'll kind of facilitate the conversation and they will do their best to
try to get everybody to come to terms. Now, if you're dealing if you let's say you do resolve
it and you come to all the terms, usually there will be at least when I do mediation I
mandate that my clients have outside counsel because as a mediator, you're acting as a
neutral and you always want somebody to be looking at it from the client's vantage point.
So I'd act as that attorney as well. Somebody else is doing mediation very often. You
know, my firm is hired to do what I call mediation-friendly attorneys, you know, attorneys
who aren't looking to cause a whole lot of chaos, but want to make sure that, you know,

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your client's not entering into agreements that they don't really want to see, because either
they don't understand or they felt swayed by their spouse or whatever it is. So the mediator
will be the person that will help. As I said, usually they'll be outside attorneys that will kind
of be guiding. They don't sit in the room usually. Sometimes they do. But more often than
not, they don't. And then when terms are reached, if you're dealing with a mediator who's
an attorney, they will draft the agreement and then they're outside attorneys will review it.
You're dealing with a mediator who doesn't have who isn't an attorney. Usually they will
not draft and they will basically do something like a term sheet, which they will ultimately
give to an attorney to draft an agreement.

Alice ​So there wouldn't be a situation where you have a mediator with no lawyers.

Jacqueline Newman ​I don't want to say that doesn't happen. I strongly recommend
against that. But it happens. I mean, there are definitely people that say, you know what? I
don't need an attorney or they're people that say they don't wanna pay for an attorney. But
I can tell you, I really don't recommend it because, you know, look, this is a hard process.
And no matter who you are, whether an attorney or not, you're emotional. I mean, this is
your life. This is your children. This is your money. I mean, this is everything you hold near
and dear. And so it's very important, in my opinion, to have someone who's on the outside
and can look at this from a objective vantage point and say, "You're making this mistake,
you're not making this mistake," and things like that. Because what I don't want to happen
is that deals are made. You know, I always think of mediation or any agreement is kind of
like a pyramid or it's like a building. And so, you know, lay one agreement upon another.
And that's those are your bricks. And then ultimately, if somebody makes agreements and
then they go and see an attorney and attorney says, you can't do that, then they come
back to the mediation session and they say, well, I'm not going to do that. And then you're
pulling out a brick from right in the middle and the whole thing crashes down.

Melissa ​OK. So there's you said there are three different kinds of divorce. So there's
mediation is the first one. What's the second one?

Jacqueline Newman ​So it's something called collaborative law. So collaborative law is
where you work with collaboratively-trained attorneys, which mean you go through a lot of
training and you enter into an agreement saying you're not going to go to court. So it's a
very big push on settlement. The catch is that if the process breaks down and it's
voluntary. So either. Say they don't want to do it anymore. At that time, those attorneys
can no longer represent the clients in court. So for an example, let's say I'm representing
the husband. He and I are getting along great and we're doing this collaborative process.
And then the wife says, "You know what? I don't have to collaborate anymore. I want to
litigate." Then not only am I blocked out of the case, so is my entire firm. So a very, very
big push on settlement. The other thing that's nice about the collaborative approach is that
it's an interdisciplinary approach. So you bring in a divorce coach, which is a therapist
trained to the model. You can bring in a financial neutral and you can bring in a child
specialist if applicable. I always say on the most expensive player on the team, why
wouldn't you bring in these other people? So, you know, if mediation is something that
people aren't comfortable with because of the fact that, you know, there's power
imbalances, they want an attorney in a room, whatever it is. I really think collaborative law
is definitely the next step before you enter into a litigation.

Melissa ​This is so interesting. OK, what's the what's the third kind of divorce?

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Jacqueline Newman ​So the third one is litigation, which is kind of what you see on TV.
And that's like the one that everybody talks about and that's when you're in the court
process. And I do want to be clear, a lot of times and probably most times people do settle
without going inside of court, even if they don't to collaborate, if they don't do litigation,
they hire attorneys, the attorneys negotiate it. And sometimes people even have what I call
the kitchen table talks. You know, they decide and they settle it themselves. And then they
come to an attorney and say, this is what I want you to draft up. So but all of those kind of
things would all fall into the litigation umbrella. I would say because it's not collaborative or
mediation and litigation, you know, while, my firm does a lot of it. I do a good amount of it. I
can tell you it is very, very difficult. It's the most expensive, it usually takes the longest.
And, you know, and and I find it to be the most damaging. But that said, sometimes you
really just don't have a choice.

Alice ​And when do you not have a choice?

Jacqueline Newman ​Well, first of all, the other person starts in litigation. If you get sued
for the motion, then you're you're in the process. There's not much to be done at that point.
You know, in a lot of times and again, this gets into kind of the legal strategy. There are
times that it might make sense to either litigate or to have the threat of litigation kind of
looming over the case. And, you know, there's many strategies for it. So for an example, if
you're the non moneyed spouse, then the moneyed spouse is going to probably be more
likely to be paying the counsel fees. So sometimes you might want that leverage. You
might want to be in a situation where you say, you know what, if things don't go the way
we want or if you're not fair in this negotiations, I'm going to go to court and I'm going to do
better in court. And if you're going to be paying my counsel fees, then, you know, what do I
have to lose? Type of thing.

Melissa ​So the moneyed spouse pays for all of the counsel?

Jacqueline Newman ​I don't want to say all but that is the presumption is that the
moneyed spouse would be to pay the. And again, there's a lot of factors to it. So it's a little
bit of a fuzzy thing. But that's like your baseline is that, yes, the money spouse should be
paying for the majority of the council fees that the non moneyed spouse, because the
whole idea is that you want to level the playing field. You don't want to be in a position
where the non moneyed spouse can't hire an attorney or an attorney that has the same
levels of experience as the moneyed spouse, because that wouldn't be fair. So that's kind
of the general premise. But then I will say there's a lot of caveats to it.

Alice ​And it's not like I mean, I guess what I'm thinking of when you say money, spousal
non money spouse is the one the the wife who makes millions of dollars and the husband
who stays home takes advocates just to switch the roles around a little bit. But what is
what is the scenario when the person just makes like slightly more than the other one is at
then? Is that then defined as a moneyed spouse?

Jacqueline Newman ​No. Usually for the reasoning of counsel fees, if you have access to
your own money and if you're really talking about not a huge, huge income discrepancy in
situations like that, you probably won't get as much in counsel fees. It will be something
that people will fight about. But yeah, you won't. I'm talking about really when you have
somebody that works and somebody who doesn't.

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Melissa ​Can you get us sort of like general ballparks if people are starting to think, you
know, like this marriage is untenable. I want to get out. What am I going to be looking at as
far as how much this is going to cost me?

Jacqueline Newman ​You know, it's a great question and it's the question I get a lot right
after how long is this going to take? And, you know, it's and it's obviously a really tough
question to answer. I mean, part of how long it takes depends on how much it costs.
Because I, you know, when people ask me that, I'll usually say, "Well, how long will it take
for you and your spouse to agree?" Because then I can pretty much do the whole
calculation. But obviously, that's a hard thing to predict. It really depends. I mean, you
know, some attorneys are less expensive than others. It also depends on what city you're
in. You know, New York City is usually our rents a little bit more expensive than some of
the outer suburbs. So you're dealing a lot with hourly rates and things like that. Let's put it
this way. I've been in litigations. I've seen people spend millions on legal fees, you know,
litigation. You're not in my experience, I don't think you're getting out of it without at least
I'd say 20 to 50 thousand dollars at the very minimum. If you're seriously litigating a case,
you go to trial, you're talking about hundreds of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Again, in
my experience, and this is probably might be a little skewed being that, you know, we're
dealing with a lot with fighting about big assets and things like that. If things are much, if
you have to W2 employees and the assets are pretty simple, you know, you might not
have less to fight about, even though people find lots of things to fight about when they
want to fight about things. If you're doing a non litigation situation such as collaborative law
or mediation, I think your expenses will generally be less. Mediation, you know, I've seen
people that have been able to, you know, they've come to me and they really have
resolved most things and I'm talking about a few things. I've seen people get out of it for,
you know, maybe five thousand dollars, you know. But that's without the uncontested
papers, because after you enter into an agreement, the next step is that you have to do
uncontested divorce papers. So there's always a lot, you know. But I mean, look, I think
your people should walk away understanding that divorce is very expensive.

Melissa ​Have you seen Marriage Story?

Jacqueline Newman ​I have. I thought it was excellent.

[Marriage Story clip]

Melissa ​Tell us how realistic.

Alice ​Yeah.

Melissa ​It is.

Jacqueline Newman ​I have to tell you, it was for any, any divorce movie I've ever seen. I
actually did find it to be probably the most realistic. I mean, obviously, there was some,
you know, some Hollywood added to it. But I'll tell you, it was real. I mean, I thought it was
great to the point that I said I want to take like my whole firm to go as a field trip, because I
think it was really valuable as attorneys to have a good, better insight into watching what
happens with clients. You know, and again, I feel like pretty connected with most my
clients. And I like to think I understand. But it was very it was interesting to watch them go
home because, you know, I have these sessions with clients and I have this connection
and we talk about everything. And then, you know, I don't know what happens when they

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get home that night. You know, they may tell me the story, but to watch it just really, I
thought was very meaningful. And I thought it was very realistic. I mean, this happens.
Relocation is an issue and it's a tough issue. You know, and I think, you know, the results
of this is that I think people are going to think twice before letting a spouse go somewhere
else with the idea they'll be back, which is something we warn people about all the time.

Alice ​Yeah, I was kind of amazed in the movie. It seemed almost too easy for her to kind
of move across the country because I've had friends who have gotten divorced and felt like
they they couldn't move because of the child.

Jacqueline Newman ​Well, yes, and that's true. But happened in the movie, though, is that
she he allowed it. So you allow it. That's the case. But you're absolutely right. If you you
know, I say to people all the time, like, you're never getting out of here. If you if you have
two parents that are very, very involved with the child, the court is so protective of those
relationships and will do everything they can to maintain them. So basically, if someone
doesn't agree, you know, it's gonna be very hard to relocate unless there are no real
reasons. It has to be the best interests of the child. But the real best interest is maintaining
relationships with both your parents.

Melissa ​Let's talk about custody and the different negotiations that go on around that and
also the financial implications of it. So if a couple is divorcing and they have two kids and
they both want to remain involved in the kids lives. What is sort of a typical custody
situation that you might negotiate?

Jacqueline Newman ​This is something I really talk about a lot in the book. And it's really
one of the reasons I wrote the book because of the fact that it was important for people to
understand that, you know, divorce is different than it used to be. And, you know, that's
why I call it "the new rules." And this is really comes down to a lot. Custody was one of the
big ones, because the difference is, you know, back in the day, the theory was that moms
got custody. I mean, that was kind of it. You know, when a father would come in and he'd
say to me, I want 50/50 time, I'd say, unless she's basically beating these children, you're
pretty much not getting 50/50 time. And I will tell you, that is no longer the case because
we are slowly getting there into a position where both parents have rights to equal time
with their kids. And while I don't know for 100 percent there now, I would say that in the
next five to 10 years, it's going to be on the I would say the burden is going to be on the
parent who is not saying there should be 50/50 to prove why, which is not where we are
exactly right now. But we are moving there. So to speak, about what happens is that, you
know, usually I will explain to clients, you know, the difference of there's two types of
custody, there's legal custody and there's physical custody. Legal custody is where you
make major decisions in regards to your children. When I say major decisions, I'm talking
about education, medical and religion. And then there is the access schedule, which is
your you know, your parenting time. And noticed, just by the way, that I don't call it
visitation anymore. Now, it's called parenting time, because I think that the idea of
visitation was something that, you know, you go visit people in jail, you don't do that when
you're parenting your kids. So legal custody, I mean, more often than not, people agree to
legal custody. More often than not, if they're either other same religion or they determines
what religious practices they're going to be teaching their children, assuming that they're
not newborns. So that usually is not as much of a problem. Medical, you know medical is
one of those things that back in the day, I used to easily say, you know, if everybody
believes in Western medicine, everyone's going to want to do with the best they can for
their children. I will say medical become a little bit more of an issue now that we have so

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many children that are suffering from ADD, ADHD. You know, all sorts of conditions that
parents are disagreeing on. So as much as I used to say everybody would just do joint
legal, medical, if you know, one of the questions I ask clients is where both of you on
therapy, where both of you on no medication like that and they say we're both on the same
page, then great. And if they say, well, one person believes in therapy and one doesn't,
then I say, well, medical might be something we need to talk about, whether it's gonna be
joint custody. And then education. So, you know, if you're in a public school and, you
know, schools your kids are gonna go to, then, you know, it's kind of simple. Education is
not something usually people fight about when you're in private schools, especially in New
York City, where there is a lot of different private schools then or even in your you know, if
you're testing into the gifted and talented programs, then people can fight about what's the
best school. But more often than not, when people come to me, their kids already probably
in some sort of schooling and it's kind of, you know, obvious that they're going to stay
there. And so education is usually something unless there are problems that people
generally agree on. But so in an initial consult, we'll talk about legal custody. But if
someone's like, "Listen, my husband are on the same page or me and my wife are on the
same page, we all agree. You know, we feel child-rearing as the same thing," I say,
"Great. Okay." So usually you can have joint legal custody and then you talk about access.
And so really what I do and I take a little post it note and I write out Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,
Friday. So I do 14 day block. And then we start making Xs on when one parent will be with
the child and when and when the other wouldn't be. So usually I start with the weekends
because that's kind of the easy one. So it's usually every other weekend and then you get
into defining what weekend is is a weekend Friday and Monday is a weekend Saturday
and Monday is a weekend Friday to Sunday. And then you start talking about what the
midweek is going to be. And that's where people usually differ. You know, you have a
whole bunch of reasons why some people will say, well, I want the child to be in my home
every night. They go to school. And then you have other parents that will take positions of
well I want to have constant access with my child. You know, one of the problems is if you
want consistent access, that's great. But then you have your child bouncing back and forth
a lot. So unfortunately, those two goals are a lot in conflict, but usually that's what we do
and we kind of figure it out.

Alice ​Do you see that the new trend towards splitting custody, having effect on the
children?

Jacqueline Newman ​I think that it's pretty positive. I mean, again, assuming that both
parents are going to be fully active, I mean, a lot of times what happens is if you have a
parent that has not been as involved in the daily routines in the child, you know, upon a
divorce, that parents going to feel very much like they need to save the relationship with
their child. And they feel like, you know, there's a lot of possessiveness and there's a lot of
identity issues that go into being a parent. And, you know, there's, there's a lot of stuff
going on. So very often you'll have someone walk in who really hasn't been involved, but
says, “I want 50/50 time”. You know, and a lot of times I say, “alright, well, look, let's try
that.” But, you know, you have to be honest about whether you can handle that or not.
Because if you have a very demanding job and you're traveling and things like that, and
you're not going to actually exercise the time with your child, don't ask for 50/50 because
who ends up getting disappointed is the child. Not to mention the fact all you're doing is
feeding into the narrative of your other spouse that you're not going to really do it anyway.
But when you actually have two parents that are able to really exercise the time that they
have with the child, I think it's really nice. And I think it can be an excellent thing. And, you

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know, and I haven't you know, I haven't heard that it's really been grossly detrimental to
them in any way whatsoever. And usually after everybody gets through that beginning
transition period where it's just really hard. I think it's pretty successful.

Melissa ​Now, what about issues of alimony and child support? Is there a formula for that?
Does it differ by state?

Jacqueline Newman ​So yes and yes, there is a formula for it. You know, let's talk about
child support first. So child support there, every state is different. I'll start with that. There is
a formula. It you know, it's called it's dictated by what's called the Child Support Standards
Act. The thing I would say about that formula is that, you know, and actually both formulas,
for that matter, is that they are really more targeted to probably people that are more in the
middle class just because they only consider a certain amount of income. There's an
income cap. So for an example, right now the child support is at one hundred and forty
eight thousand, I believe. And spousal support is at I think is at one hundred and eighty six
eighty seven. I don't know. My other reason I don't even know these caps is so my clients
are usually so far in excess of it that I was going to say these formulas don't apply as well.

Melissa ​So that's a cap. That's the most that somebody would pay.

Jacqueline Newman ​Well no, that's and you know, it's just to be very clear, that's the
income cap to the degree that that is the income that is considered for the purposes of the
formula. But you could if you combine parental income in excess of that, you can definitely
be you know, you definitely receive more. It's just a question of when the court has a lot of
discretion on where they're gonna go with it, but with child support. One thing I want to just
mention is that there are two parts to child support. There's a basic support payment that's
made every month. You know, all of this is nontaxable now since the tax laws changed
and, you know, you don't have to account for where that money goes. You know, it's
basically supposed to be kind of food, clothing and shelter. But then on top of that, there's
what we call the extras. And the extras are unreimbursed medical expenses, educational
expenses, you know, summer camp, all of these kind of the extras. And that is paid on top
of basic child support that's usually paid pro-rata to your income. So there's kind of two
parts to that. And then there's the spousal support on top of that.

Alice ​And how do you feel about prenups?

Jacqueline Newman ​I am a big advocate of prenups for various reasons. First of all, I
think most people don't like prenups because they say they're unromantic and you're
planning your divorce and all that. And I completely understand that. You know, one of the
things that I think can be very positive about a prenup is that, first of all, it gets rid of, as
much as it can, certain elements of uncertainty when people are walking into a marriage. I
think it also can really you know, it just I think it can help people actually in a marriage if
done properly for various reasons. One specifically being is that it can dictate what's going
to happen, you know, so everybody has a good sense going to the marriage as to what
could happen upon a divorce. I think that that can be very comforting to people, especially
when you do have such income discrepancies. But the other thing I would say, if I could
tell a quick story about a prenup that I think really I would like people to know because it
can happen. So I had a client once and I'll try to make this somewhat short, but I had a
client once who was amazing and she was just this great, vivacious woman. And she was
marrying an older gentleman who was very wealthy, was a little stereotypical, you know,
and as a quick marriage. And he did not want to talk about his money at all. And she found

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that to be controlling and she found it to be you know, he was being secretive and all these
things. And we had know very, very heated settlement negotiations. And during these
things, I mean, be screaming and yelling and crying and the whole thing. And it ultimately
came out that the reason he didn't want to talk about money and the reason he didn't want
to deal with any of this and was just so shut down about it is because his father told him
he'd amount to nothing. And so the money to him, it wasn't even about being able to feed
feed his family was much more about what it meant to him because it proved to his father
that he was wrong. And so when that all came out, it became so it was like this whole
damn like opened. And it became such a different dynamic between these people. And,
you know, it was it was very nice to see. And they also during this meeting, you know,
every time he would try to talk a little bit, she'd shut, you know, she'd totally attack him.
And so he'd shut down and you'd watch this whole dynamic of communication where I'd
say, "OK, you have to let him speak. Like let him say his full sentence, don't say anything."
And then when she would speak, he would kind of you'd see him like almost roll his eyes.
And I'd say, "You can't do that either." And it was a lot of like teaching them how to talk.
And so ultimately what ended up happening was after, you know, they finally signed and
she came into my office after and there was literally tears still on her eyelids. And she said
to me, "I'm so glad that happened." And I said to her, "I have to tell you, I'm surprised that
you're saying it." And she said, "You know what? We learned how to have a difficult
conversation if we didn't go through this. I never would have known about the whole thing.
You know, with his father, he never would've told me all of that. I would have just thought I
was controlling. I would have thought he was being mean. All these things," she's like,
"now, I understand. And we also learned how to. Talk to each other." And she's like, "and
marriage is gonna get tougher. And we talked about money, which I would never have
known about. I wouldn't have known and understood or known all this financial
circumstances." And so I think that it really taught them how to move forward. And, you
know, and as I far as I know, they're still married and they're still really happy. And I
understand they had a child recently. So I really think that if a prenup is done properly, it
can facilitate communication. It can kind of put everything out there so there's no secrets.
And I think it really can strengthen marriages.

Alice ​Nice.

Melissa ​Awesome. Thank you so much for talking with us.

Jacqueline Newman ​Oh, no, it was absolutely my pleasure.

Kotaku Splitscreen ad: ​Video games, heard of them? I'm Maddy Myers. I'm Jason
Schreier. And I'm Kirk Hamilton. And we're the hosts of Kotaku Splitscreen. We get
together each week to talk about the biggest news from the world of videogames. We also
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NFL kicker. Find us at Kotaku, dot COM, or wherever you get your podcast.

Melissa ​And now it's time for a segment we call Ripped from the Archives. Since we're
talking divorce, we thought we'd revisit our 2018 conversation with divorce lawyer James
J. SEXTON, who also happens to have a new book out called “How to Stay in Love:
Practical Wisdom from an Unexpected Source.”

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Alice ​Rather than talking us through the process of divorce, James spoke with us about
how to avoid the process entirely through some preemptive strategies.

Alice ​You've also said that people put more thought into purchasing a car than they do
into getting married.

James J Sexton ​Absolutely. And what's what's scary about that to me is if you take the
car analogy a little further, if I said to you, you know, what car do you want? You'd pick a,
you know, a Porsche, Maserati, you pick some fancy, beautiful, you know, sexy car. But if I
said, you know, by the way, that's the only car you ever get to have. And that car has to be
with you through every stage of life. Now, you would have to choose very differently. You
would say, OK, well, wait a minute, I'm going to choose a car that's got some practical
features and that when I'm 80, you know, I'm not going to feel we're getting into it. I could
put a a child safety seat in the back of it. And I want to have storage in and I want to be
able to take it to the grocery store. So marriage, when are we getting married? You know,
with people getting married a little older than they used to be, getting married their late 20s
now as opposed to their early 20s. But the truth is, when you look at your who you are
when you're in your 20s and who you are in your 40s and 50s and 60s, if we're signing on
for this thing, theoretically for our entire life, this is the one car we're going to have for our
whole life, our spouse, then, yeah, give it some real thought, you know? And what's funny
to me is that marriage is one of those things where we think a lot about it. We talk a lot
about it. We ask our friends, what color dress should I pick or what should the bridesmaids
wear? What should the groom's man's gifts be? Or what kind of cake should I have?
Should I have the chocolate fountain or not? The answer, by the way, is definitely have the
chocolate fountain. But, you know, what should we do? You don't talk honestly about why
are you getting married? What are your expectations of how life is going to change? You
know, we don't have that talk at all.

Melissa ​What questions should you be asking yourself before you and your partner get
married?

James J Sexton ​You know, I think one of the first things that people should talk about in a
very candid way is how they're going to have conversations in the marriage. So it's like a
conversation about the conversation. I think that's incredibly important. I think you have to
talk about, look, what are we going to do when one of us is feeling something? If one of us
is feeling bored, if one of us is feeling frustrated, if one of us is feeling the sex isn't where
it's supposed to be. If one of us is feeling we're not spending enough time together. If one
of us has some weird resentment that we're harboring. How long do we let that sit before
we talk about it? Because there are some people that will say to you very honestly, you
know, look, my feelings are like the weather, like clouds. They just sort of come and then
I'll feel a certain way and then they pass. And so maybe it's not good for me to just like as
soon as I'm feeling something to emote on it or talk about it. And then there's some people
that say, listen, if I'm feeling it, I feel like I really want to get it out. It's cathartic. It's
important for me, too. And so I think if I have a conversation with your partner and say,
hey, look, how are we gonna do that? What are we going to do? We're gonna sit down
once a week and have like a meeting like we would in a business. Are we going to e-mail
each other so that we have a little time to digest it? I call it "hit send now" this idea of just
sending someone an email, just anytime there's something really on your emotional radar,
just send it to them right away and just say to them, I don't need a response necessarily. I
just want you to have this just to know that this thing that happened I'm feeling or this thing
you said upset me, but I don't want to make it a big thing, but I want you to know about it

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so that we just don't lose the plot. The second thing I think is incredibly important. I think
you do have to have a very clear and honest conversation about day to day life habits,
divorce very often or problems in a marriage or it's death by a thousand paper cuts. You
know, it's these little tiny things that just pull our connection from the other person. And
those can be no joke, as simple as, you know, you leave your socks everywhere. And it
just makes me nuts every day. And it's such a silly thing. You know that, oh, he leaves the
cap off the toothpaste or we leave the toilet seat up. You always, you know, like tell that
story. You know what I think is embarrassing. And I don't you know, it's so much better to
just address those things while they're tiny, while there's still these little seeds, because I
really do from from talking to my clients, see a straight line between those little things and
then the big deal killer things that happen. You know, people don't just nefariously get up
one day and go and start hiding the finances from the other person. It really is that they get
up one day and they're talking to their spouse about the finances. Their spouse freaks out
about something. They go, you know, I'm not gonna fucking talk to them about this
finances anymore. I'm not going to discuss finances with them anymore. People don't just
get up one day and just have sex with their secretary. You know, there's problems in the
marriage and the sex life that's not satisfying. They're not being honest with themselves
and each other. So then they get to that place. And once those deal killer things happen,
by the time those big, big things happen, you're not coming back from that.

Alice ​So you think just addressing all the small things keeps the bigger things from
happening? Like to me, I feel like why not let the small things go? You know, like this, little
things annoy me, just let it go.

James J Sexton ​And I think that's the conventional wisdom. I really do. And I think there's
something to it. Because what you're saying is, look, you know, it's hard enough to get
through the day. Like, I really we got to have this kind of like we're going to talk about the
fact the socks, like there's bigger things, like there's bigger fish to fry. The little things are
everything. The little things are also how we fell in love. I mean, I know we all feel like
when we fall in love, it's like this punch in the face that we're just like magic has just
happened. And there is an element of that. But it's also like love. Falling in love is we fall in
love with these little sweet gestures, these little kindnesses, these tiny compliments that
people make to each other. It's true, even in friendship connection, you know, those those
friendships that when you think about your best friend, you know, and you think about, you
know, the little tiny things they do. Like, those are the things that just they make it just so in
love with them, you know? And I think that those little things add up to giant things in the
positive or the negative. And I really understand why we don't want to talk about the little
things, because you go it, why bother? Just leave and I'll wait for the big things. We can
hold off the big things. If we talk about the little things and we find ways to connect to those
little things, because, you know, if you stop doing these little things, that's when people
really start to feel abandoned and disconnected. And there's a straight line between that
and ending up in my office. I really, really believe that.

Alice ​And now it's time for upgrade of the week. Every week we talk about that one tiny
thing making a big difference in our lives. Melissa, what's your upgrade this week?

Melissa ​My upgrade is an upgrade that I think you may also like. My my upgrade is
something that I think has also been an upgrade for you is Ezekiel bread.

Alice ​Oh.

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Melissa ​I love it. It's a an extremely high grain. What is it? No, it's a it's a sprouted grain
bread. It's a flour free bread that has beans in it. So it's a high protein bread. It just is
extremely hardy. It makes a fantastic toast with butter. I had seen it in the supermarket. I'm
not entirely clear about why it has to be refrigerated and or frozen, but that may be
because it has no preservatives in it. It has like six ingredients, but it's delicious. I
recommend putting a little bit of salt on it really pumps up the the nutty flavor. It's great.

Alice ​And though it says it has beans in it, it doesn't taste bean-y right?

Melissa ​No, it doesn't has been at all. It just it tastes like it tastes like a very wholesome
bread choice. Yeah. I'm into do it. OK. I recommend it. If you're trying to get more protein
into your life. Cut down the carbs.

Alice ​Very nice.

Melissa ​Yep.

Alice ​Jacqueline, what's your upgrade?

Jacqueline Newman ​So I'm very excited because I have just started working out with a
trainer and I just started last week. And I have to tell you, I love this woman. And she
totally I started with the whole I don't like this and I don't like that. And I don't I don't like the
sweat. I don't like to this and this and this. And she instead of judging me in any way
whatsoever, she's like, we can work with all of that. And I thoroughly enjoyed my workouts
with her. Not to mention, I really like her. And so it's kind of almost like having a therapist
with her trainer, because, you know, she's not part of my social circles and we don't know
the same people. So it's really nice to be able to kind of just talk to somebody and it makes
the whole session go well. And, you know, and because I like her so much. Also, I want to
you know, I want to do well for her. And so very motivating. And I'm just so excited about it.
It's really kind of gotten me, you know, really energized by the whole thing. I look forward
to seeing her and I can see this being a turn. And, you know, I've actually I'm going to
bring my daughter to do it. I have a 13 year old daughter. And we've been talking a lot
about, you know, exercise and how important it is and a healthy lifestyle. And I know she
loved this woman. So I said, why don't we go together, which I think we'll be really bonding
for the two of us as well. So I'm excited.

Alice ​Nice!

Melissa ​Excellent. I love it.

Alice ​That's a great upgrade.

Melissa ​Alice, what's your upgrade?

Alice ​It's two words. Sonicare toothbrush. I guess you could guess the second word from
the first one. But I'm very excited about it.

Melissa ​Two compound words too.

Alice ​OK. Four words. Sonic.

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Melissa ​Yeah.

Alice ​Care.

Melissa ​Yeah.

Alice ​Tooth and brush. It has changed my tooth brushing experience. I am a convert. I
love it so much. I got it because it was like one of those Black Friday deals. Maybe it's a
Cyber Monday deal was like, you know, a 30 dollar normally. One hundred dollar. I got it
for 30 dollars or 200 dollars or something ridiculous whenever it was worth it. I would have
paid the original amount of money because I feel like it's transformed my tooth brushing
experience. It times your tooth brushing for you. First of all, it's the sonic ness of it. I don't I
don't know whether or not that's real or what it's doing.

Melissa ​Well, it's sound so you can hear it.

Alice ​Set. So it's cleaning my teeth with sound.

Melissa ​Yeah.

Alice ​Apparently.

Melissa ​Yeah.

Alice ​But my teeth feel much, much, much cleaner. I'm I'm really digging it. The whole
experience.

Melissa ​I don't mean to be like hackier than thou.

Alice ​Uh huh.

Melissa ​But this is your first time using a Sonicare?

Alice ​Yes.

Melissa ​No, I mean they're great. And I. This is a great upgrade and people need to hear
this.

Alice ​I've never wanted to spend the money on it. I've always I've bought other kind of
electric toothbrushes and just those thought like Sonicare is too much money for me. But
I'm I don't know what took me so long. It's great.

Melissa ​Can I tell you something terrible about my Sonicare, which is that I have a
Sonicare. I agree with you wholeheartedly. And I still use my manual toothbrush. Most of
the time because I am impatient and I don't want to brush for as long as the Sonicare
makes me.

Alice ​I feel like the time really zips by with the Sonicare. I always thought it like I thought
two minutes to brushing your teeth would be like an eternity.

Melissa ​I find it an eternity.

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Alice ​Wow.

Melissa ​Yeah. It's terrible.

Alice ​That is terrible.

Melissa ​Yeah. But I floss.

Alice ​Well, alright. I floss too.

Melissa ​All right. You know.

Alice ​I'm the best person.

Melissa ​Yes, you are.

Alice ​All right well.

Melissa ​Thank you so much, Jacqueline.

Alice ​Thank you.

Jacqueline Newman ​Thank you. It was great speaking with you.

Melissa ​And that's our show. The Upgrade is produced by Micaela Heck and mixed by
Brad Fisher.

Alice ​Please rate us on Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. What are you waiting for?
Just open the upgrade and the Apple Podcast app. Go on. Scroll down to see the stars
and tap on all five of them. And also do add review because we like to hear from you. You
can also reach us by calling us at 3 4 7 6 8 7 8 1 0 9, leaving a voicemail or write to us at
Upgrade at Lifehacker dot com.

Melissa ​You can also find us on Twitter, at Lifehacker, on Instagram, at Lifehacker dot
com. All one word and on Facebook at Facebook dot com slash lifehacker. Sign up for life
hackers daily newsletter full of tips and tricks and hacks at Lifehacker dot com slash
newsletter. And you can find show notes for this and every episode of the upgrade at
Lifehacker dot com slash the show.

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