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PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE,

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j oi nt wi th the

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COMMITTEE ON OVERS]GHT AND REFORM

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and the

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COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFA]RS,

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U. S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

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WASHINGTON, D.C.

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15 DEPOSIT]ON OF: F]ONA HILL

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l'londay, 0ctober Washi ngton,

L4, 2019

D. C.

24 The deposition in the above matter was held in Room

25 HVC-304, Capi toI Vi si tor Center , commenci ng at 9: 55 a. m.

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Present: Representat'ives Schi f f , Carson, Swatwell, and

H eck

Also Present: Representatives Raski n, Rouda, Rooney,

Jordan, Zeldi n, Perry, and Gaetz.

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Appearances:

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FoT the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON ]NTELL]GENCE:

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For the COMMITTEE 0N F0REIGN AFFAIRS:

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For FIONA HILL

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SAMUEL S. UNGAR

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LEE WOLOSKY

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BOIES SCHILLER FLEXNER LLP

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L40L New York Avenue, NW

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Washington, D.C.2005

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THE CHAIRMAN: The committee will

come to order.

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Good morning, Dr. Hi11, and welcome to the House

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Permanent Setect Committee on Intetligence, wh'ich, along with

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the Foreign Affairs and 0versight Committees, is conducting

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this investigation as part of the offjc'ial impeachment

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inquiry of the House of Representatives. Today's deposition

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is being conducted as part of that inquiry.

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In light of attempts by the White House administration

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to direct witnesses not to cooperate with the inquiry, the

10 committee had no choice but to compel your appearance today.

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We thank you for complying with the duly authorized

congressional subpoena.

Dr. Hill has served with distinction in and out of

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government, including as National Intelligence 0ffjcer for

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Russia and Eurasia at the National Intelligence Council, as a

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seni or f ellow wi th the Brooki ngs Insti tut'ion, and, most

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recently, as Deputy Assistant to the President and Senior

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Director for Europe and Russia on the National Security

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Counci 1 staff.

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In her most recent work at the White House, Dr. Hill

held a unique position at the top of the executive branch's

22 policymaking process, in which she would have had access to

23 and been i nvolved i n

24 decisions on Ukraine that relate directly to areas under

25 j nvesti gati on by the commi ttees.

key po1 i cy di scussi ons ,

meeti

ngs ,

and

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Although you lef t your posi t'ion, Dr. Hi 11, only a f ew

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days before the Presjdent's July 25th, 2019, call wi th

Ukrai ni an President Zelensky, we look forward to heari ng your

test'imony today about the range of issues and jnteractions we

are investigating that occurred in the leadup to the

July 25th ca11, as well as your expert assessment of the

ev'idence we have uncovered s'ince you left

the White House.

This includes the July 25 call record itself as well as

the documentary record that has come to 11ght about efforts

after the caIl to get the Ukrainians to announce publicly

'investi gati ons i nto the two areas Presi dent Trump asked

President Zelensky to pursue, the Bidens and Burisma, and the

13 conspiracy about Ukraine's purported jnterference in the 2016

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U. S. electi ons.

15 Before I turn to committee counsel to begin the

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deposition, I invite the Ranking Member Nunes or, in his

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absence, one of the Republican members present to make any

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opening remarks. I will

recognize one of the GOP members.

MR. J0RDAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

20 Dr. Hi11, I want to thank you also for appearing today.

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My understanding is you were coming voluntarily until about

22 an hour ago when the chairman issued to you a subpoena.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, could we suspend?

24 Do we have any members here that are not members of the

25 three committees authorized to be present?

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Mr. Gaetz, you're not permitted to be in the room.

MR. GAETZ: I am on the J udi ci ary Commi ttee .

THE CHAIRMAN: Judiciary Committee is not a part of th'is

hearing.

MR. GAETZ: I thought the Judi ci ary Commi ttee had

juri sd'ict"ion over impeachment.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gaetz, you're not permitted to be in

the room. PIease 1eave.

MR. JORDAN: Mr . Chai rman , real1y?

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, rea11y.

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l'4R. GAETZ :

You ' re goi ng to i nclude Members of Congress

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on committees that have roles of impeachment

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THE CHAIRMAN: 14r. Gaetz, take your statement to the

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press. They do you no good here. So, please, absent

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yourself.

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t4R. GAETZ: You're going to have someone remove me f rom

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the heari ng?

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THE CHAIRI"IAN: You' re goi ng to remove yourself ,

l"1r .

Gaetz .

20 MR. JORDAN: 14r. Gaetz is going to stay and listen to

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the testi mony.

22 THE CHAIRI4AN: Mr. Gaetz, you're goi ng to leave the

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room.

24 MR. GAETZ: No, I think I

have a right to be

is there

25 a rule you can cite as to why I am not

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THE CHAIRMAN: You're not a member of this committee.

Thjs is conducted in closed sessjon. You're not permitted to

be here.

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t"lR. GAETZ: I'm on the Judjciary Committee.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gaetz, please absent yourself from

the commi ttee.

I t' s the rul i ng of the chai r

you ' re not

permitted to be here. PIease leave the committee.

MR. JORDAN: Mr. Chairman, I think in the 20 hours of

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testimony we've heard in the two previous intervjews, there

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12 hear something that, in my judgment, all

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have been a grand total of L2 Members of Congress present. I

don't think it's

going to hurt to have a L3th Member actually

435 Members of

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THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gaetz, you're not a member of the

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three desi gnated commi ttees that are parti ci pati ng i n thi s

'intervi ew. You ' re not permi tted to be here .

That i s the

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ruling of the chair, and you are required to 1eave.

MR. GAETZ: Do you have a rule that you're able to cite for that?

20 THE CHAIRMAN: I am citing the House rules and the

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deposition rules. You are not permitted to be here.

22 MR. GAETZ :

Whi ch rule?

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gaetz, you are simply delayi ng the

24 procedures 'in violation of the rules.

25 yourself.

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MR. GAETZ :

Whi ch rule?

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gaetz, why don't you take your

spectacle outsjde? Th'is is not how we conduct ourselves in

thi s commi ttee.

MR. GAETZ: I've seen how you've conducted yourself in

this committee, and I'd like to be here to observe.

THE CHAIRMAN: We'11 wai t unti 1 l"lr. Gaetz leaves bef ore

we begin. I do want to say that thjs dilatory tactic will

come out of the minority's time for questioning.

HR. GAETZ: Th'is isn't dilatory. You can begin any tjme

you 1 i ke.

THE CHAIRMAN: We' re goi ng to begi n the c1ock. Thi s

13 wilt come out of the minority's tjme for questions.

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MR. J0RDAN: Wel1, I had a statement I wanted to get to

when you interrupted me.

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THE CHAIRMAN: We're not back on the record.

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[].0:43 a .m. l

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THE CHAIRI"IAN: Okay. Let's go back on the record.

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MR. BITAR: Hi.

As the general counsel of the House

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Intelligence Comm'ittee, I'fi relaying the v'iew of the

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Parliamentarian, wh'ich was just relayed over the phone, to

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both Members and staff of the minority comm'ittees as well as

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The Parliamentarian made clear that the House deposition

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regulations and the language used therein has always been

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construed as meaning members of the committees undertaking

the joint investigation and not members of other committees

who may w'ish to attend f or other reasons, and, theref ore,

they are not allowed to participate 'in the deposition jtself

or be present.

15 Thank you.

16 MR. J0RDAN: Chairman, could I just add one thing?

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THE CHAIRMAN: YCS.

I'4R. J0RDAN: The Parf iamentarian was also clear that

there is no precedent, no basis for docking anyone's time,

20 that this was a legitimate question and not dilatory in any

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sense.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jordan, you have an opening

23 statement?

24 MR. J0RDAN: I do.

25 0n September 241h, Speaker Pelosi unilaterally

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announced - -

THE CHAiRMAN: The record should reflect that Mr. Gaetz

has left

the room.

MR. JORDAN: Yes.

0n September 24th, Speaker Pelosi unilaterally announced

that the House was beginning a so-ca11ed impeachment inquiry.

0n October 2nd, Speaker Pelosi promised that the so-ca11ed

impeachment inquiry would treat the President with fairness.

However, Speaker Pelosj , Chai rman Schi ff,

and Democrats

10 are not living up to that basic promise. Instead, Democrats

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are conducting a rushed, closed-door, and unprecedented

12 impeachment inquiry.

Democrats are ignoring 45 years of

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bipartjsan procedures, procedures that provided elements of

f undamental f a'i rness and due process.

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In past impeachment inquiries, the majority and the

minority had coequal subpoena authority and the right to

requi re a commi ttee vote on at1 subpoenas. The Presi dent's

counsel had a right to attend all depositions and hearings

inctuding those held in executive session. The President's

20 counsel had a right to cross-examine witnesses and a right to

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propose wi tnesses.

22 The President's counsel also had the right to present

23 evidence, object to the admission of evidence, and to review

24 all evidence presented, both favorable and unfavorable.

25 Speaker Pelosi and Chaj rman Schi ff's

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so-called impeachment

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i nqui ry has none of these guarantees of fundamental fai rness

and due process.

Most disappointing, Democrats are conducting this

impeachment inquiry behind closed doors. This seems to be

nothing more than hiding thjs work from the American people

and, frankly, as we just saw, hiding it

from other Members of

the Un'ited States Congress. If Democrats intend to undo the

will of the American people just before the next election,

they should at least do so transparently and be willing to be

accountable f or the'i r acti ons . And, fi na11y, Dr. Hi 11, we've been advi sed by the State

12 Department that communications between heads of state are

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classified, and I think it's

important that we keep that in

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m'ind as we proceed through today' s i ntervi ew.

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With that, I yield back.

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THE CHAIRMAN: 14r. Goldman.

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MR. GOLDMAN: Thank you , Mr . Chai rman.

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This is a deposition of Dr. Fiona Hill conducted by the

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House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence pursuant to

20 the 'impeachment inquiry announced by the Speaker of the House

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on September 24th.

22 Dr. Hi11, if you could please state your fu11 name and

23 spell your last name for the record.

24 DR. HILL: 1t's Fiona Hi11. Last name is H-i-1-1.

25 MR. GOLDMAN: Along with other proceedings in

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furtherance of the inquiry, this deposition is part of a

joint investigation 1ed by the Intelligence Committee in

coordi nat'ion wi th the Commi ttees on Forei gn Af f a j rs and

Oversight and Reform.

In the room today are majority and minority staff from

both the Foreign Affajrs Committees and the Oversight

Commi ttees, as well as maj ori ty and mi nori ty staff from

HPSCI. Just so the record js clear, equal numbers of staff

from both the majority and minority have been and are

permi tted to be here. Thi s i s a staff- led deposi tion, but

11 l'lembers, of course, f rom the three commi ttees may ask

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questions during thei r allotted tjme.

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My name is DanieI Goldman. I'm the djrector of

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investigations for the HPSCI majority staff, and I want to

thank you very much for coming in today for thjs deposition.

I would like to do brief introductions, and I understand

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that the w1 tness would also j ust 1i ke f or everybody around

the table to introduce him or herself so that the witness

19 knows who everybody is.

5o, to my right js Daniel Nob1e, who

20 is the senior investigative counsel for HPSCI. Mr. Noble and

21 I wjll be conducting most of the interview for the majority.

22 And then, if we could just continue down the room next

23 to Mr. Noble, that would be great.

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MR. HECKr I'm Denny Heck. I represent the 10th

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District of Washington State.

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MR. RASKIN: Congressman Jamie Raskin from Maryland's

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Eighth Distrjct.

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MR. R0UDA: Congressman Hartey Rouda from 0range County,

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Cali forni a.

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MR. R00NEY: Franci s Rooney from southwest Florida,

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Forei gn Af f a'i rs Commi ttee.

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PERRY:

Scott Perry,

Pennsylvan'ia's L0th District.

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ZELDIN:

Lee Zeldi n,

New York- L.

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J ORDAN :

Jim Jordan,

0hio.

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MR. CASTOR: Steve Castor with the Republican staff of

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the Oversi ght Commi ttee.

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20 MR. WOL0SKY: I 'm Lee Wolosky ,

counsel to Dr .

Hi 11 .

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MR. UNGAR: I'm Sam Ungar, also counsel for Dr. Hi11.

22 DR. HI LL: Thank you .

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GOLDMAN: Dr. Hj ll,

thi s

deposi tion wi 11 be

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25 depos j t'ion i s bei ng conducted 'in HPSCI's secure spaces and i n

However, the

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the presence of staff who all have approprjate security

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clearance. It 'i s the commi ttee's expectation that nei ther

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questions asked of the witness nor answers by the witness or

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the witness' counsel will require discussjon of any

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information that is currently or at any point could be

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properly classj fied under Executive 0rder 13526.

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Moreover, E0 13526 states that, quote, in no case shall

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information be classified, continued to be maintained as

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classj fied, or fai t to be declassi f ied, unquote, for the

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purpose of conceafing any violations of 1aw or preventing

embarrassment of any person or entity.

Now, I understand that, Dr. Hi11, you had classificatjon

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authorization in your prev'ious job. You were the classifying

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authority. So we expect you to fully understand the

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d'istinction here between the classified and unclass'ified, and

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we will be relying on you in part to'indicate whether any

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questions that are asked may call for answers that are

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classified.

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If

that js the case, we would ask that you please inform

20 us of that before answering the questions so that we can

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adjust accordingly. Part of the reason for that is our

22 understanding is that your attorneys do not have appropriate

23 securi ty clearances

24 DR. HI LL :

Ri ght .

25 MR. GOLDMAN: -- and so we'11 want to make sure that we

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preserve all classi fi ed i nformati on i n our nati onal securi ty

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i nterests.

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Today's deposi ti on 'is not bei ng taken 'in executi ve

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session, but because of the sensi tive and confidenti a1 nature

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of some of the topics and materials that will

be discussed,

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access to the transcript of the deposition will be fimited to

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the three committees in attendance. You and your attorney

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wi11 have an opportunity to review the transcript at a later

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date.

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Before we begin, I'd like to go over a couple of ground

rules for this deposition. We will be following the House

regulations for depositions. As you know by now, we have

previously provided your counsel with a copy of the

14 regulations, and we have copies here as well if you or your

15 counsel would like to review them at any time.

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The way this deposition will proceed js as follows: The

majority will be given L hour to ask questions, and then the

mj nori ty wi 11 be given L hour to ask questions, and,

thereafter, we w'i11 alternate back and forth between majority

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i n 45-mi nute rounds unti 1 the questi oni ng i s

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complete. We will take periodic breaks, but'if you or your

22 counsel need any break at any time, just 1et us know.

Z) As we just understood, you do have counsel here, who

24 just introduced themselves. And so we want to make it clear

25 that, under the House deposit'ion rules, counsel other than

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your own counsel, including counsel for government agencies,

may not attend. 5o it

is our understanding that the only

counsel here today representing you is your personal counsel.

There is a stenographer taking down everything that js

said here today. For the record to be clear, we would ask

that you please wait unti1 questions are finished before you

answer, and we will do the same when you answer. The

stenographer cannot record nonverbal answers, such as shaking

your head or saying "uh-huh, " so 'it js important that you

answer each question with an audible, verbal answer.

11 We ask that you give complete replies to the questions

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based on your best recollection. If a question is unclear or

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you are uncertain in your response, please don't hesjtate to

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let us know and ask that the question be rephrased or asked

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again. If you do not know the answer to a question or cannot

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remember, simply say so.

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You may onty refuse to answer a question to preserve a

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privilege that is recognized by the committee. If you refuse

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to answer a question on the basjs of privilege, staff may

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either proceed with the deposition or seek a ruling from the

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chairman on the objection 'in person or by telephone during

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the deposition at a tjme of the majority staff's choosing.

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If the chair overrules any such objection, you are required

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to answer the question.

25 And, fina1ly, you are reminded that it is unlawful to

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deliberately provide false informatjon to Members of Congress

or staff.

It is imperatjve that you not only answer our

questions truthfully but that you give fu11 and complete

answerS to all questions asked of you. Omissions may also be

considered to be false statements.

Now, as thi s deposi ti on i s under oath, Dr. Hi 11 ,

would

you please stand and raise your right hand to be Sworn? Do

you answer or affirm that the testimony you are about to give

us is the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

DR. HI LL:

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MR. GOLDI"IAN :

do.

Thank you .

Let the record ref lect that

12 the wi tness has been sworn.

13 Dr. Fli 11 ,

i f you choose, now i s your t'ime to make any

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openi ng remarks.

DR. HI LL:

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don ' t

have any openi ngs remarks .

I 'm j ust

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here to answer everyone's questions.

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MR. GOLDi"IAN: And, Mr. Wolosky ' do you have anythi ng

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MR. WOLOSKY: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Goldman.

I would like to enter into the record a letter of

today,s date, 0ctober L4, 2019, from Michael Purpura of the

22 whi te House Counsel's off i ce governi ng the subj ects or

23 addressing the subjects of execut'ive privilege and

24 classification, along with a letter from me to Mr. Purpura

25 dated 0ctober L3, 2019.

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I'd like to make it clear that