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6 j oi nt wi th the
7 CO]'4MITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM
8 and the
9 COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS,
ll WASHINGTON, D.C.
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I Appea rances:
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l5 ANDREW WRIGHT
l6 BARRY M. HARTMAN
t7 NANCY IHEANCHO
t9 1501 K Street NW
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2 I yield back.
J THE CHAIRMAN:I thi nk my colleagues wi ll certai n1y have
4 an opportunity to discuss these matters further, but in the
5 'interest of moving ahead with the depositjon I recognize
6 Mr. Goldman.
l6 mi nor i ty.
t7 MR. GOLDMAN: Now this depositjon wj11 be conducted
18 enti rely at the unclass j f i ed leveI. However, th'is
r9 deposition, as you no doubt know,'is being conducted in
20 HPSCI's secure spaces, and in the presence of staff with the
2t appropriate security clearances, and, as we understand as of
22 thj s morni ng, your attorneys all have appropri ate securi ty
23 clearances. We understand that you received a letter from
24 the State Department that addresses some of the concerns
25 about the disclosure of classified information. But we want
12
5 the questions asked of you nor the answers that you provide
6 or your counsel provide wi 11 requi re di scussion of any
7 information that is currently, or at any point could be
8 properly classifjed under Executive 0rder L3525. As you no
9 doubt know, E0 13526 states that, quote "In no case sha1l
l0 i nf ormati on be class'if i ed, or conti nue to be mai ntai ned aS
25 all staff and members here will wait until you finish your
14
9 Assistant Secretary Kent, now is the time for you to make any
l0 openi ng remarks.
ll MR. ZELDIN: Mr. Goldman, can we just go around the room
t2 and have everybody identify themselves?
l3 MR. GOLDI'IAN: You want back? Why don't we start at the
t4 table here. Mr. Qu'igley.
l5 MR. QUIGLEY: 14ike Quigley from I11inojs.
t6 MS. SPEIER: Jackie Speier.
l7 MR. SWALWELL: Eric 5walwell.
l8 PlS. SEWELL: Terri Sewe11.
l9 MR. ROUDA: HarIey Rouda.
20 MR. RASKIN: Jamje Raskin, for Maryland.
2t MR. HECK: Denny Heck, Washi ngton State.
22 MR. MALINOWSKI: Tom Maljnowskj, New Jersey.
23 MR. PHILLIPS: Dean Phi11ips, Minnesota.
24 MR. R00NEY: Francis Rooney, Florjda.
25 MR. l'lEADOWS: Mark Meadows, North Carolina.
16
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2 for Europe and Asia, and then as the European Bureau's senior
J anti cor rupti on coordi nator.
4 In the summer of 2018, then-Assistant Secretary for
5 European and Eurasi an Af f a'i rs, Wess t-'li tche11 asked me to come
6 back from Kyiv to Washington early to join hjs team as Deputy
7 Assjstant Secretary of State to take charge of our eastern
8 European Caucasus portfolio, covering six countries in the
9 front line of Russian aggression and malign influence,
l0 Ukrai ne, Moldova, Belarus, Georgi a, Armeni a, and Azerbai j an.
ll The administration's national security strategy, which Wess
ll BY ]'4R. GOLDMAN :
mi c off.
2 BY I"IR GOLDI"IAN:
5 A Define conversations.
6 a All right. Well, who did you speak to about the
7 documen t?
2t a From whom?
25 i nstructi ons?
25
25 European Bureau staff, there could have been more, but they
26
2 A We1l, |\4s. Perez, who 'is one of the top two career
J foreign Services officers and overSeeS the perSonnel system,
4 I had worked for her previously directty in a previous job.
5 And because I'd had no contact with the leadership of the
22 him?
J responsive and were doing a 1ot and but I'd known Marek
4 previously and respected him. If i t weren't f or l'4arek, we
5 would not have had Charge Taylor out in Kyiv. He helped with
6 the process of getting him brought back on board as an Active
7 Duty person. So I respected his professionalism previously,
8 so it was a professional conversation.
9 a Did you voice the same simi lar concerns?
l0 A I did.
ll a And what was his response?
t2 A He apologized, because I mentioned that there had
13 not been an exchange.
t4 o 5orry. Did you voice your concerns about the two
l5 statements in the letter that you disagreed with?
t6 A To the best of my recollection, again, it was a
t7 phone cal 1 at night when I was in my kitchen eating dinner at
l8 about 9 between 8 and 9. So I cannot say i t was more, I
t9 th i nk, the tonality. It was a pleasant, professional
20 exchange.
2t a And was there any fo11ow-on conversations that you
22 had?
then the next sort of point was the meeting, the gu'idance,
2 our the European Bureau'S meeting at 9 o'clock on October
3 3 rd .
I State Department?
2 MR. KENT: The letters that came in, the letter that
J came to me on September 27th was sent concurrently with a
24 BY MR. GOLDI4AN:
J a Who?
I responses.
2 a What did he say?
J A He said he had not yet succeeded in securing an
t4 had engaged.
l5 a Did you have any further conversations about that
l6 statement with him?
5 happeni ng.
6 And so I very much appreciated him reaching out on a
7 personal 1eve1 and showing, as someone who's been an
1 A Well
2 a 0r any Ukrai nj ans?
3 A I think it's a matter of record that the former
4 mayor of New York and the current mayor of Kyiv have known
5 each other for over a decade. Mayor Klychko is a former
6 heavyweight boxing champion of the wor1d. And so I beljeve
7 that Giulianj first met Klychko, roughly, in 2008.
8 a 0kaY.
24 Giuliani.
25 a And did you understand what the purpose of that
44
I meeti ng was?
ll Lutsenko said his intent was to go to New York and meet with
t2 Gi uf iani .
4 Mr. Giuliani?
5 A I do not i f he had a d'i rect conversation. To the
6 best of my recollection, he said he was asked, which suggests
7 that he did not have the conversati on himself . I don't know
l3 mentioned specifically Masha and me, and then sajd others but
t4 d'id not menti on the others.
l5 a Where was this meeting?
2t Giuliani?
22 A He was just passing along information. That was
23 not the purpose of the meeting. The meeting was to talk
24 about our assistance programs. He oversees the law
I others.
2 a Who else?
I she had seen the documents and asked me a question, and with
2 the many dozens of emails from media over the last several
J started, I d'idn't answer a si ngle
weeks, si nce th'is story
4 one, I forwarded them all to our press officer.
5 a Was this recent?
6 A This was after -- it was probably a day or 2 after
7 the IG came up and passed documents.
8 a Did you speak to Ambassador Yovanovitch about the
9 conversation that you had with Mr. Avakov?
l0 A I di d not well , I cannot say for certai n. I
ll mean, again, the conversation was February 1.1th. That was
t4 a OkaY.
20 she shared that she had had a similar conversation with him.
2t a At that point did you understand what Rudy
22 Gi uli's i nterest was j n meeti ng wi th Lutsenko?
an'i
25 Giuliani.
55
ll i n conversati on?
t4 forgery.
l5 t'4R. KENT: Yes?
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you te11 us what that letter was and
t7 what you know of i ts provenance?
24 BY MR GOLDMAN:
2t MR. KENT: The third story line that out the next
came
22 day was focused on the Bidens and Burisma, that was the th'ird
23 story line. The fourth one that came out of day after was
24 going after some civil society organizations, including
25 anticorruption action center that were described as Soros
61
25 a To the embassy?
62
t2 mi nute.
l3 lD'iscussi on of f the record. l
t4 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
9 Yovanovi tch?
l0 a And what does the State Department do? It didn't
ll seem like the efforts were sufficient.
t2 A There were exchanges at thi s poi nt wi th offi ci als,
l3 including, to the best of my recollection, Under Secretary
t4 Hale. It may have 'included the Counselor of the Department,
l5 Brechbuhl, at that point. And there was a suggestion made,
t6 and I can't remember by whom, injtially, but eventually,
t7 Gordon Sondland, our Ambassador to U.S. EU also joined some
l8 of the back and forth that Ambassador Yovanovi tch should
t9 issue a statement, or do a video or tweet declaring fu11
20 support for the foreign policy of President Trump,
2l essentially asking her to defend herself as opposed to having
22 the State Department defend her.
Z) a You talked about the four 1jnes. And the first one
I pol iti ca11y aski ng them not to prosecute Ukrai ni ans. And we
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I [L].:37 a.m.l
2 BY MR. CASTOR:
t4 A He was.
I Poroshenko.
l6 fake?
t7 A I don't if that list has been provided to the
know
l8 committee. You could show me the list and I might have some
l9 recollection. But I --
20 a Okay. Do you have any recollection of who was on
2t that f ist?
22 A There were about L5 names, and I remember i t WAS
23 very odd. It included the country's leadi ng rock star SIava
24 Vakarchuk, who is now the leader of one of the part'ies in
25 parliament. It included very bjzarrely a person who was a
74
8 out of the black book. i believe Andy Kramer from The New
J very closely.
4 a the primary person bringing that
And was Leshchenko
5 to the attention of The New York Times and the other --
6 A No. I thi nk, alt Ukrai nj ans, they di dn' t need a
7 si ngle person doi ng i t. Because Mr. l'lanaf ort f i rst appeared
l3 BY MR. CASTOR:
22 A Cor rect.
23 a And what's your knowledge of Buri sma's corrupti on
24 history and efforts to prosecute Burisma?
25 A I first became aware of the owner of Burisma,
80
l9 had shut the criminal case that had been the basis for a
20 Brjtish court to freeze $23 million in assets held by Mykola
2l Zlochevsky.
22 That was an issue of our interest because we had made a
20 i n, May of 20L4.
23 company.
I A Yes.
l0 busi ness?
ll A I have never met nor do I know the background of
l2 Hunter Bi den.
t4 relevant languages?
l5 A i do not know.
l6 a Do you know if he moved to Ukrajne?
t7 A I don't know.
l8 a Do you know how much he got Paid?
t9 A I have not seen any documents. I've heard people
20 make suggesti ons
I with NABU. I will say that now that you mentjon it, there
2 apparently was an effort forto help cosponsor, I
Burisma
J guess, a contest that USAID was sponsoring related to clean
4 energy. And when I heard about it I asked USAID to stop that
5 sponsorshi p.
6 a why?
2 A Correct.
J a And the same can be sajd of Lutsenko?
4 A Cor rect.
5 a With regard to Shokin, it really seemed that the
6 IMF and the U.S. Government adopted an official position that
7 Shoki n had to go?
8 A Correct.
9 a And that's the subject obviously of the Vice
l0 President. You know, he made some statements that have been
l1 videotaped about how he played a role in removing Shok'in, and
t2 as a result, you know, $1 billion in aid was freed up. Are
r3 you familiar with that?
t4 A Yes.
l5 a And is jt fa'i r to say that jt was the U.5.
t6 Government's of f i ci a1 posi t'ion Shoki n needed to go?
t7 A Yes.
I po1 j cy.
2 We had been asked to help w'ith a
by Presi dent Poroshenko
J proj ect i n to reform the prosecutor general's offi ce. The
4 previ ous year we'd worked wi th M'ini ster of Interi or Avakov,
5 whom I mentioned earlier to the launch of what was known aS
l5 prosecutor.
l6 in the IG unit had no idea that the fjrst
5o the people
t7 corrupt prosecutor and there were a 1ot of them that
l8 they were targeting happened to have been the former driver
l9 and very close, personat friend of the prosecutor general.
20 When they arrested him and the only reason they could
2t arrest him 'is because the deputy prosecutor general heard
22 about it and tipped them off, except he tipped off the wrong
23 corrupt prosecutor in the province Shokin went to war. He
24 wanted to destroy anybody connected with that effort. They
25 tried to fjre and put pressure on the judges who would issue
94
l6 A Rlght.
t7 a And there were similar issues with Lustenko that he
1 Shoki n?
J yes.
4 a 0kay. Mr . Jordan.
5 MR. J0RDAN: We11, I would just ask, why? I mean, you
6 said Mr. Shoki n was terri ble. I thi nk the term you used
7 earlier was he's a typi ca1 Ukrai ni an prosecutor
8 t4R. KENT: Yeah.
14 you said is just as bad, also kids are you know, kids
l5 with Mr. Poroshenko and him are godfather to each other's
t6 chi 1dren. Lutsenko i s showi ng up drunk, maki ng statements.
t7 And, oh, by the way, he's not even a lawyer. And so I think
l8 the counselor's questjon was, where was the outrage with
19 Mr. Lutsenko that was there for Mr. Shokin?
20 MR. KENT: First of all, the fi rst phase Yuriy
2t Lutsenko was prosecutor general for over 3 years, almost 3
2t game on
7 and the IMF, was there a U.S.-1ed effort to get the EU and
8 the Il'lF to also target Shok'in, or was that somethi ng that EU
9 and IMF did totally on their own?
l0 MR. KENT: The It'lF keeps i ts own counsel , but of tenti mes
ll when they go on factfinding missions they often have
J f ore'ign ass'istance?
4 MR. KENT: I wj 11 be honest wi th you, si r, I've ne.ver
5 served in the Western Hemisphere, and I've only made one trip
6 to Panama as part of my National Defense University
7 industrial study group. So I would defer to my colleagues
8 who are working on Central American policy.
9 MR. MCCAUL: But in f ine with your previous statements,
l0 the whole notion of looking at corruption in foreign
ll governments and predicating foreign assistance on that, is an
J was enough.
4 yes, is a country that has struggled
And so Ukraine,
5 with these issues, but I would say also in the last 5 years
6 has made great progress.
7 MR. MCCAUL: And just for the record, I signed with
8 Chajrman Engel a letter to obligate the funding security
9 ass j stance to Ukra'ine. But i s 'it not appropri ate f or the
I prosecutor case.
2 MR. MEADOWS: Yeah. And when was that?
3 MR. KENT: That took place in late summer, early fal1 of
4 201_5.
6 MR. CASTOR: With all the time I have 1eft, I'd like to
7 open up a new topic. I'm just kidding. I'm out of time.
8 l"lR. KENT: And i f we could take a break.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. Actually, what I was going to
23
24
25
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1 [].: L0 p.m. l
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let's go back on the record.
J Mr. Secretary, I want to just ask you a few questions to
4 fo1low up on my colleague's questions, and then I'm going to
5 turn it over to Mr. Mitchell to continue going through the
8 meeting between Mr. Giuljani and Mr. Lutsenko, and there were
9 some Ukrainians that were apparently apparently came to
9 document collection.
l0 THE CHAIRMAN: Part of the document collection that has
l5 Bu r i sma?
l0 BY MR. t.,IITCHELL:
ll a Good afternoon, sj r.
t2 A Afternoon.
13 O I'm going to pick up where Mr. Goldman left off,
t4 whjch was the end of March of this year, 2019. And you
l5 testified earljer that you met with the deputy director of
l6 NABU on about March L9.
t7 A I did not. I was here in the United States.
l8 Somebody at the embassy did.
8 A Yes.
I copi ed.
2 a And what was the t'ime period for that email traffic
J in relation to the article that came about on or about
4 March 20?
5 A It would have been over the next perhaps 10 days,
6 basical1y the last L0 days of March.
7 a 0kay. And duri ng that time period, were there also
8 add'itional arti cles that out by Mr. Solomon?
came
2t A No.
6 A Yes.
I January of 2019 and you floated the idea that she extend her
2 stay you thought of extending her stay through the fa11 of
J 20L9?
I told that she was willing to stay, because what she said
him
2 was she wanted to have clarity because she had a 9l-year-o1d
J mother with her and needed to also plan for other issues, by
4 time Under Secretary Hale flew away she had indicated her
5 willingness to stay essentially an extra year through 2020 to
6 give the State Department and the administration time to find
7 a nominee that could be nominated and confirmed and sent out
8 so that we would have an experienced Ambassador in an
25 What then happened was a media campaign against her, and then
127
8 A Yes.
9 a Was that the first that you heard that she'd been
l0 recalled?
ll A I believe that was the first time I heard that
t2 instructions had been sent for her to come back to the U.S.,
l3 yes.
t4 a Okay. So you learned for the first time that she
25
131
I [1 :40 p .m. ]
2 BY MR. MITCHELL:
J a And what was your react'ion to Mr . Gi u1i an'i 's
4 statement?
5 A Mr. Giulianj, at that point, had been carrying on a
I who came from Odesa, referencing Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman.
24 A Correct.
25 a And when what day say exactly about Mr. Parnas and
137
I Mr. Fruman?
t9 February.
20 a Now, you indicated that you had another
2t conversati on wi th I can't read my own wri ti ng, Bakanov?
22 A Bakanov.
25 beginning of May?
139
l0 a Yes.
t4 a Did there come a time when you did learn what their
15 purpose would be?
ll a 0kaY.
t2 A So I'm not aware of the conversations that would
13 have happened.
t4 a Do you know jf there was any effort, I mean, they
l5 would have kept you i n the loop 'if they were tryi ng to make
16 the case that, hey, you can't be believing this stuff. And
17 i f you' re thi nki ng about removi ng Yovanovi tch, hold on, 1et
18 me 1et us make our case. Did that opportunity occur?
l9 A l'ly understandi ng i s that there were hl gh-1eve1
20 discussions between the leadership of the State Department
2t and the White House prior to the decision to recall
22 Ambassador Yovanovitch, but those obviously were ultimately
23 unsuccessful, and the account that I heard at the time is in
24 accordance with what I read Ambassador Yovanovitch had in her
25 statement on Friday.
143
l0 A I do not know.
ll a Was the deni a1 of hi s vi sa, was thi s the first time
t2 he had made an attempt to travel to the Uni ted States but had
13 been deni ed?
t2 had open.
l3 a But you djdn't know whether there was any specific
t4 i nvesti gati ons 'i nto somebody 1i ke Zlochevsky?
l5 A I do not know j f there was an i nvesti gati on "into
r6 Zlochevsky, the individual, Yuriy Lutsenko has said publicly
t7 that he investigated Burisma on nonpayment of taxes. And as
l8 I recall, there was a settlement where Burisma paid a penalty
t9 for nonpayment of taxes, and at that point Zlochevsky
20 returned from his external home in Monaco and resumed a
2t public life in Ukraine.
22 a Goi ng back to the passport i ssue. Di d 'it present a
23 ri sk that terrori sts would get credenti a1s?
24 A That was a potential theoretical risk, and that is
25 exactly what I told in the first meeting that we had with the
148
l5 Kholodnytsky to be removed?
t6 A Correct.
t7 a What can you tell us about that.
l8 A Nazar Kholodnytsky was selected by Viktor Shokjn
t9 as, in our view, the weakest of the three final candidates to
20 become the speci al ant'icorrupti on prosecutor. Th'is 'is a new
2l uni t that was semi -i ndependent wi thi n the prosecutor's
22 office, and it was set up specifically to prosecute cases of
23 high corruption that were developed by NABU. We worked
l8 Lutsenko that you took with Shokin, and I've just been maki ng
l9 a list. He wasn't a lawyer. He actually talked about
20 showing him the money, I thjnk you just said. We know tha t
2t he's been drunk on certa'in occasions. He was selling
22 passports, potenti a1ly to terrori st.
23 MR. KENT: He was not se1 t i ng passports. He unde rm i ned
8 i nvesti gation?
l4 |.,lR. KENT: But I wj11 say that at the time I didn't have
I MR. KENT: I would agree with you that it's not in that
2 paragraph.
J NR. PERRY: Right.
4 MR. KENT: As put together by the staff at the National
5 Security Council.
6 MR. PERRY: Right. 0kay. And do you remember anywhere
7 in this transcript where the President says, you know, for
8 the the President of the United States says to Presjdent
9 Zelenskyy to dig up or get some dirt?
l0 MR. KENT: Again, I think the National Security Council
ll account is what it is.
l2 MR. PERRY: Yeah. It's not in there is my point. It's
l3 not in there. And I just want to make the record clear
t4 because for hours and hours in testimony over the course of
l5 days here there's a continual charactertzation of these
l6 events that are not true, that are not correct, per the
t7 transcript.
t8 Mov'ingon, i n the past round you were asked about your
t9 opinion about the President, is it proper for the President
20 to ask another country f or an i nvesti gati on 'into a pol i ti caI
2t rival? I think that was the general characterization. I
22 want to explore that a 1i ttle bi t. And 'in your answer you
23 said that it would not be the standard. And my quest'ion js,
24 do you have does the Department of State have a standard
25 in that regard?
158
J you heard 'it previ ous, and then you saw i t related j n her
4 openi ng statement here. Ri ght? Do you thi nk there's another
5 viewpoint? I know you know that viewpoint, is there a
2l Secretary of State
22 MR. PERRY: But there could be another viewpoint, that's
23 my poi nt.
24 |VlR. KENT: Theoretically there are multiple points about
25
160
l3 understands that.
t4 MR. PERRY: A11 right. Thank you. i yietd.
l5 BY MR. CASTOR:
1 to occur?
2 A Yes. I was informed that it was finally scheduled
I reluctance.
2 a What did you read?
J A I think that's a question you could ask people that
4 work at the Nati onal Securi ty Counci I .
l6 A I did.
t7 a Who did you get the read-out from?
l8 A From Lieutenant Colonel V'indman.
t9 a And when was the read-out?
20 A It was not the same day. It may not have been the
2t day after, but it could have been either July 26th or 271n,
22 several days after.
z) a What did he tell you to the best of your
24 recollecti on?
25 Assembly.
167
23 the call?
24 A No.
6 at di nner?
7 A Generally, this would have been a very short
8 conversation because her mother and my wife were part of it,
9 and we generally avoided talking about anything related to
l0 work when we were together.
ll a Did she have any followups for you? I mean, the
t2 President of the Unjted States you know, you related to
l3 her that the Pres'ident of the Uni ted States may have
t4 mentioned her on a call with President
l5 A As I think she may have said to you Friday, in part
l6 because of the what the Deputy Secretary of State told her,
t7 she aware of the Presi dent's vi ews of her.
l8 a So presumably this was rea11y interesting
t9 information that you had and you related to her, and I'm just
20 wondering whether there was any additional back and forth. I
2t mean, did she
2 a 0kaY '
J I thi nk I 'm out of t'ime here.
I"lR. CASTOR:
4 MR. ZELDIN: How much time is left?
I prompt in L0 minutes.
2 lRecess. l
3 THE CHAIRMAN: A11 right. Let's go back on the record.
4 Secretary, I have a few questions for you. I think a
5 couple of my colleagues do, and then we'11 go back to the
6 t i me1 i ne wi th [''lr . Goldman .
8 you have one of your wealthy people, the server they say
9 Ukraine has it. Do you know what server the Pres'ident
l0 bel i eves Ukrai ne had?
ll 1'lR. KENT: I can only again refer to the med'ia articles
t2 that I this explaining that
have read subsequently about
l3 there is, the founder of CrowdStrike who is a Russian
l4 American, and the media as said that that was a confused
l5 i denti ty. But that's agai n the only basi s I have to j udge
l6 that passage is what I've read in the media.
t7 THE CHAIRI'IAN: And f urther on i n the paragraph, the
l8 President says: I ljke to have the Attorney General
would
l9 call you or your people, and I would like you to get to the
20 bottom of it. Do you have any reason to question the
21 accuracy of that part of the call record?
22 l4R. KENT: I wasn't on the ca11, and the first time I
23 saw thi s declass'i fi ed document record of conversati on was
24 after it was declassified by the White House.
25 THE CHAIRI4AN: Now, you mentioned that you when you
176
25 covered so far?
182
7 MS. SPEIER: So 'in that c'i rcumstance, you were read i nto
8 that July 25th phone conversation by the Lieutenant Colonel
9 but were not actually on the call?
l0 MR. KENT: Correct. I've never in 27 years been on a
ll call made by a President of the United States.
t2 MS. SPEIER: So that is not consistent with your role
l3 then. Okay.
t4 MR. KENT: I have never served at the Natjonal Security
15 Councjl, I've only served at the State Department and at
l6 embassi es overseas.
t7 ER: A1t ri ght. You sai d earl i er that you
MS. SPEI
l8 provided all of your documents to the State Department for
l9 them to make available to us. Forgive me if I don't think
20 they' re re goi ng to be f orthcomi ng. But 'if you were to
2l fy certai n documents i n parti cu1ar, you menti oned a few
i denti
2 category?
J MR. KENT: There are many companies in Ukrajne that
4 might fa11 into that category, yes.
5 MS. SPEIER: Could you give us some examples?
6 MR. KENT: If you took the roster of the richest
7 Ukraj ni ans, they di dn' t bui 1d value, they largely stole i t.
8 So we could go down the richest 20 Ukrainians and have a long
9 conversation about the structure of the Ukrainian economy,
l0 and certainly most of the billionajres in the country became
ll bi llionai res because they acqui red state assets for largely
t2 under valued prices and engaged in predatory competi tion.
l3 MS. SPEIER: Buri sma doesn't stand out as bei ng
t4 different from any number of companies?
23 Volker, and also the Charge Taylor about whether or not the
24 aid would be forthcoming, whether or not the statement would
25 be written. Were you privy to any of that?
185
l9 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
I forei gn delegations to vi si t.
2 So we scrambled on Friday the LTth to try to figure out
J who was avaitable. Vice President Pence was not available.
4 Secretary of State Pompeo was traveling. And so we were
5 looking for an anchor, someone who was a person of stature
6 and whose job had relevance to our agenda.
7 I suggested to Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, since there
8 oftentimes is thjs dialogue between the State Department and
9 the NSC for inaugural delegations, to having the NSC ask
l0 Secretary of Energy Perry. Because he had traveled to
ll Ukraine, understood the issues, and energy was one of the top
t2 three 'issues that we were worki ng wi th Ukrai ne. So that was
l3 the start of that conversation, and then it was a matter of
t4 building out possibilitjes.
l5 Inaugural delegations are determined by the White House.
l0
ll
t2
l3
t4
l5
t6
t7
l8
I9
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I 13:24 p.m. l
2 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
a
J a And you described an independent relationship that
4 he had with the chief of staff. What do you know about that?
5 A We11,I thjnk the proof in the pudding is, after
6 the delegation went to the inauguration on May 20th and had a
7 meeting with President Zelenskyy and that included Senator
8 Ron Johnson, who was there not as part of the Presidential
9 delegation but separately. But he sat in the meeting with
l0 Zelenskyy, and then he joined a briefing to the President in
1l the 0val Office on May 23rd.
t2 It was Ambassador Sondland's connections with Mulvaney
13 that got them the meeting with the President. It was not
14 done through the NSC staff, through Lieutenant Colonel
l5 Vindman and Ambassador Bolton.
l6 a I don't understand what you mean.
I April, and she was out of the country by the time President
2 Zelenskyy was inaugurated on May 20th. So it was coterminus.
J She essentially ceased serving as Ambassador, the functions
4 of Ambassador, on April 25th.
5 a Ri ght. And after that, di d Ambassador Sondland's
6 role increase in Ukraine?
7 A Yes.
8 a Were you aware of whether that went through
9 official channels or how that came to be?
l0 A The way that came to be was the main three U.S.
ll offi ci als, executi ve branch offi ci als, Secretary Perry,
t2 Ambassador Sondtand, and Special Representative Volker, were
I conversation, but that was the first time I had met him,
2 without a substantjve conversation, in January.
J a So you did not speak to him again after January?
4 A To the best of my recollection, we had no direct
5 conversation and were not in each other's presence until the
6 U.N. General Assembly week, the last week in September.
7 a So you did not attend that Oval 0ffice meeting on
8 May 23rd, right?
9 A I did not.
l0 a 0kay. D'id you get a readout of what occu r red?
ll A There were several readouts. That particular week
l2 I was my eldest daughter graduated from Boston University
l3 and I then took my kids and my wife up to Acadia National
t4 Park we were hiking on Cadillac Mountain so I was not in
l5 Washington those days where the readout occurred May 23rd.
l6 a So d"id you subsequently learn what occurred?
t7 A So there were several readouts provided secondhand
l8 from representatives who had been in that meeting and
5 a You
t6 And that was more or less the extent that probably was
2 To the extent that there is input, they ask for input from
3 other offi ci als, other offices. We obviously stand ready to
4 be supportive but that's that's thei r functi on. That' s
5 not our function
6 a Were you of a White House meeting?
supportive
7 A I was, the State Department was. Ukraine is an
8 important country that Congress appropriates roughly in the
9 ballpark $700 m'i11jon a year in assistance and Zelenskyy won
10 a clear mandate for change and so we were supportjve of a
ll visit to the White House, yes.
t2 a Did you have any reason to doubt Zelenskyy's
l3 si nceri ty about hi s anticorruption vjews?
t4 A I had no reason to doubt the sincerity of Zelenskyy
l5 trying to represent change for his country based on the
l6 series of meetings I had with him dating back to December
t7 2018. Starting from the beginning it was clear that he had a
l8 prior association with a fai rly notorious oligarch named Ihor
t9 Kolomoisky and that was going to be a mark of his willingness
20 to really make a break from past relationships and stand on
2t principle.
22 So from not necessarily ourfjrst conversation 'in
23 December, but in the second conversation in March prior to
24 the electjon, we were already talking about Kolomoisky and
2 leadershi p.
) a with the new Ukrainian
And what engagements
4 leadership occurred following that meeting up until the
5 conference on July Lst that you're aware of?
6 A I do not I do not recall. SPecial
7 Representat'ive Volker traveled frequently to Ukraine so it is
8 possi b1e that he may have gone i n Iate t"lay. I j ust don't
9 reca1l precisely. He traveled frequently there.
l0 There was a coordinating meeting in the Department of
ll Energy in mjd-June, on June 18th. 5o Secretary Perry chaired
t2 that. Ambassador SondIand, Ambassador Volker from the State
l3 Department, Acti ng Assi stant Secretary Reeker, my di rect
t4 supervjsor, Tyler Brace, all attended that meeting in
l5 Secretary Perry's offi ce, and they also connected recently
t6 arrived Charge Taylor from Kyiv.
t7 5o I that, to the best of my knowledge, after
would say
l8 that May 23rd meeting, this June LSth meeting was the next
l9 meeti ng where a number of offi ci a1s got together speci fi ca11y
20 to talk about policies and programs towards Ukrajne.
2t a And in June and early Ju1y, are you aware of any
22 conversations that Ambassador Sondland might have had with
23 the Chief of Staff Mulvaney about Ukraine and President
24 Zelenskyy?
25 A I'm not aware of conversations between Sondland and
204
I a Such as?
2 A I did not have the fu11 details of what exactly
3 that was, but I think it was sending signals about potenti a1
4 j nvesti gati ons.
t2 23r d?
l3 A Yes.
t4 O Volker produces one with Christina Anderson?
l5 A Chris Anderson.
l6 a Chris Anderson. And so then help me understand
t7 again. Like who produced the one from the NSC?
l8 A So Fiona had a conversation. To the best of my
t9 recollect'ion, she had a conversation wi th , who is
20 normally the director for Eastern Europe and, while I was
21 away at my daughter's , was acting in my
22 stead as acting deputy assistant secretary.
23 a 0h, okay. 5o he's a State Department employee.
I a Ambassador Volker.
25 A I did.
210
I Department.
2 a Did he receive that warmly?
a
J A He receivedit with a smile and that's -- we have a
4 good worki ng relati onshi p. I would say there' s more tensi on
5 perhaps between him and the staff that work for fie, but we
6 have a respectful working relationship.
7 O Okay. And in Fiona Hj11's readout what was her
8 what can you remember from her readout?
9 A I think what I recall and I can't say the
l0 specifi c detai 1s parti cularly si nce there were three versi ons
ll floating around that I read in rap'id succession, just by
t2 tonality that the meeting was perhaps more problematic than
l3 the initjal readouts that we got through secondhand knowledge
l4 of what Ambassador Sondland and Ambassador Volker said.
l5 I believe one element and I can't remember where this
16 came from that initially the President did not want to sign a
l7 congratulatory letter. And he actually ripped up the letter
l8 that had been written for him. But by the end of the
t9 meeting, he'd been convinced and the version I recal1 hearing
20 was Ambassador Sondland helped draft it. And to be honest,
2t the second version of the letter actually read better than
22 the fi rst versi on. I wasn't i nvolved i n ei ther of them
23 because I had been on leave and eventually that letter was
24 signed.
25 a At the State Department in the wake of Ambassador
213
5 in Kyiv?
6 a And her close confidants here in Washington.
7 A I don't know who her close confidants in Washington
8 would be. I was, as I mentioned, in Ukraine and Kyiv at the
9 embassy on May 8th. i did offer to have a restricted
l0 townhall meeting for Americans, essentially, in our version
ll of the SCIF, and the country team, the meeting room, where
t2 we'd have and anyone who wished to have a conversation
l3 about what had happened and the way forward.
t4 was one of them actually said that when
And my sense
l5 the attacks started jn March, particularly after members of
t6 the President's family started attacking her, at some level
t7 they realized that she was going to be recal1ed, and it was a
l8 matter of when, not 'if . Their question, as people working at
t9 the embassy, was what was going to be the impact on them, on
20 the embassy, and on our policy towards Ukraine.
2t so, whjle I did basicatly I was wilting to answer
And
22 any questions, I think they were more focused, at that point,
23 already, having digested that she had been removed, and they
24 wanted to know what was going to happen next. So I assured
25 them that our policy was our pot'icy and it would remain our
214
I position of Ambassador.
2 a 0kaY.
25 predecessor
217
I U. S. the day before Thanksgi v i ng and was i n the U .S. for 3.5
2 months for language trai ni ng and then returned to Kyiv in
J late March 2015. So in the 2 weeks prior to the Vi ce
4 Presi dent's vi si t, I was already back in the U.S asa
5 language student as opposed to being an actjve participant in
6 the conversations.
7 MR. ZELDIN: And you referenced Ambassador Pyatt, you
4 the 2 weeks prior to him getting there when you had left do
5 you think that they talked to the Vice President when he got
6 there in country?
7 MR. KENT: Again, the way a trip would normally be
l3 made thi s demand on the Ukra'ini ans and speci f i ca11y the
t4 Presi dent?
l5 I think I -- I don't recal1 -- I mean, he
l4R. KENT:
t6 gave a public speech and in the well of the Ukrainian
t7 parliament. But this demand would have been delivered in
l8 private in his meeting with President Poroshenko.
l9 MR. J0RDAN: You never got a readout on how it all went
20 down?
3 made that the Vice President was going to make this? Is that
4 your statement?
5 MR. KENT: No. I that wetl , agai n, we' re
would say
6 now talking about conversations, of which I was not a part,
7 that happened 4 years ago. I do not think my guess, to
8 the best of my ability, I would anticipate that the issue of
9 Shoki n's status was ra'ised pri or to the Vi ce Presi dent's
l0 tri p, possi b1y duri ng a conversati on. But I was not on those
ll ca1ls between the Vice President of the United States and the
t2 Presi dent of Ukrai ne.
l3 MR. MEADOWS: But wouldn't it be a big deal jf the Vice
t4 President is going to demand a curtailment of $f billion?
l5 Wouldn't that have registered with you, since your passion
l6 and
t4 at that time.
l5 a Was that pretty much the end of i t?
l6 A That was the end of that conversation.
t7 a Okay. That was i n mi d-201.5?
l8 A That would have been in February, because to the
l9 best of my recollection Beau Biden died that spring. I then
20 returned to Ukraine in August of 2015 and I believe he passed
2t before then. So the only t'ime that conversation coutd have
22 happened is in that narrow wjndow between January, February,
23 2015.
l8 BY MR. CASTOR:
7 remembe r?
l5 countries.
t6 a So i t i s not uncommon for the meeti ngs to be
t7 proposed suggested, discussed and then take a while to put
l8 together?
19 A That's a fai r statement, yes.
20 a And sometimes the meeti ngsdon't actually happen.
2l A That would also probably in certain circumstances
22 also be a fair assessment.
z) a 0kay. Because these issued are complicated?
24 A Because schedules are busy, yes.
25 O If I heard you correctly you mentjoned that in
232
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t3
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23
24
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235
I 14:23 p.m.l
2 I do not recaIl, but I can't rule out. The
MR. KENT:
J U.S. Congress does not, as a matter of course, copy embassies
4 on its correspondence with other countries, but we oftentimes
5 do receive courtesy copies sometimes through the State
6 Department.
7 BY MR. CASTOR:
9 a copy?
t2 letter.
l3 a Okay. And what do you remember about this
t4 communi cati on?
20 a 0f course.
2t A nor did we go to the prosecutor general to raise
22 the concerns of the three Senators who sent this letter.
23 a 0kay. Do you know if in the leg affairs
anyone
24 A At the time, I was working in Kyiv, so I woutd not
25 necessarily have been aware. My predecessor was Bridget
236
t9 we, the U.S. Embassy, did not meet with him frequently.
20 a Do you know if anyone at the State Department had
2t a -- picked up the phone and ca1led the Justice Department
22 and said, you know, this Lutsenko fel1ow is not so great. if
23 you are getting information from him, you might want to
24 better understand that he is not well-regarded at this point?
25 A To be honest, I have no knowledge of that, and I
237
I were definitely part one, part two, but there were a number
2 of different platforms in play that week.
3 THE CHAIRI4AN: And part one, was that Lutsenko's c1a'im
t4 referred to?
l5 l"lR. KENT: Right.
l6 THE CHAIRt"lAN: in fact, that false narrative that
And,
t7 the Vi ce President had pressured the f i ri ng of Shok'in over
l8 Burisma, Lutsenko himself would later recant. Did he not?
t9 MR. KENT: Mr. Lutsenko has held many positions on many
20 i ssues that are mutually exclusi ve, and i ncludi ng on th'is
2l i ssue.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Wel1, jn of 20L9, Mr. Lutsenko,
mid-May
23 were you aware, di d an i nterv'iew wi th Bloomberg i n whi ch he
24 said he had no evidence of wrongdoing by Biden or his son.
25 Are you fami 1 i ar wi th that i ntervi ew?
240
4 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
20 He sa'id, We'I1 aim for that perhaps next week, and hopefully
2t that will lead into a meeting by the end of the month,
22 July 29 and 30, which was roughty, I think, the dates that
23 were discussed in the June L8 meeting that Secretary Perry
24 chai red.
25 a Was there any di scussj on i n that meeti ng i n Toronto
243
1 the rule of 1aw. And that was the nature of the exchange, at
2 some point in July, either at Toronto or perhaps, more
J 1 i keIy, uly i n the State Department.
mi d-J
5 the re .
8 Giuliani?
9 A I his purpose was, and that's when
asked him what
l0 he said, as I relayed earljer, that because, clearly, former
ll Mayor Giuliani was an influence on the President's thinking
t2 of Ukraine that he, Kurt Volker, felt it was worthwhite
l3 engagi ng
t4 a Right. I know. But did you think jt was
l5 worthwhi 1e engaging?
t6 A What I understood was Kurt was thinking tactically
t7 and I was concerned strategically.
t8 a Did you have any discussions with anyone else at
t9 the State Department by mid-July, any time up to mid-Ju1y or
20 prior to, about Mr. Giuliani's potential influence on the
21 President and the fact that what he was advocating may be
22 contrary to official U.S. policy?
23 A I di d not, i n part because af ter G'iu1i ani attacked
24 me, as well as Ambassador Yovanovjtch and the entire embassy,
25 i n hi s late May i nterv'iew, I was told to keep my head down
250
7 Hale?
t9 country for the next week and a half. And I dld cancel some
I Security Counci 1?
2 A She was scheduled to leave at the end of July. I
J don't recall which particular day of which particular week.
4 a Did you have a meeting or a conversation with her
5 before she left?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 a Anddid you discuss any of these issues that we've
8 been talking about today with her?
9 A Yes, but to be honest, I don't reca11 the last time
l0 we had a conversation, and when we had the conversation would
ll be important to what we talked about. A conversation that I
12 recatl, I took notes actually dated to mid-May in which
and
l3 we talked about the change of attitude and approach towards
t4 Ukraine, and that was in the wake of meetings that President
l5 Trump had, a meeting with Vjktor Orban, the leader of
l6 Hungary, as welt as a call he had with Russian Presjdent
t7 Putjn 'in early May.
I A Yes.
4 A Yes.
2 topi c?
13 Mr. Mulvaney?
ll th rough .
I 'ideas. Some of them are great; some of them are not so good.
2 Andpart of the role of the special assistant as well as
J people 1i ke me i s to ensure that the 'ideas stay wi thi n the
4 bounds of U. S. pol i cy
5 O And what was her resPonse?
6 A She took that onboard.
7 O But why was that conversation important to you to
8 crystafize what was going on?
I Colonel Vindman or his boss, which was Fiona Hill and then
2 now has become Tim l'lorrison.
J a Right. And I thank you for that clarifjcation. So
I And Gordon had told him, Tim, and Tim told 8111 Taylor, that
2 he, Gordon, had talked to the President, P0TU5 in sort of
J shorthand, and POTUS wanted nothing less than President
4 Zelenskyy to go to microphone and say investigations, Biden,
5 and C1 i nton.
2 for Yalta European Strategy back when Crimea and Yalta were
l9 that both Tim Morri son and Gordon Sondland speci fi ca11y said
20 that they did not believe that the two issues were linked.
2t a What was Ambassador Taylor's reaction to this whole
22 conversati on?
A What I said --
2 a Cou1d you just go through that again?
3 A Ri ght.
4 a I haven't heard that name lately.
5 A That was a message that was described jn the
6 shorthand of the desire to have this was the Gordon
7 Sondland messaging of what the Ukrainjans need to say in
8 shorthand 2016. And in shorthand, it was suggested that the
9 Ukrajnians needed Zelenskyy needed to go to a microphone
l0 and basically there needed to be three words in the message,
ll and that was the shorthand.
t2 a Clinton was shorthand for 20L6?
l3 A 2015, yes .
t4 a Okay. Are you aware of the narratjve that there
l5 were some Ukrainians that tried to influence the outcome of
t6 the electi on?
2t BY MR. CASTOR:
I to some things just and ask you whether you have any
2 awareness or ever remember this issue up. I'm not
coming
5 going to ask you to, you know, adopt the artjcle as, you
4 know, personal endorsement or anything.
5 Were you aware that a Ukrainian American named
l3
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t7
l8
t9
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23
24
25
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I [5:37 p.m.]
2 BY MR. CASTOR:
6 A No.
8
I
9
I
l0 I
ll
t2
l3
l4
l5
l6
l7
l8
t9
20
5 NSC.
ll
t2 a
l8 Ukrai ne.
t9 o
20 I
2l And, again, Iof mY life in
spend most
24 and not all the staff who actually do most of the work.
25 a You talked earlier about Lieutenant Colonel
281
I been the same week and certainly was wi thi n the same month.
7 MR. KENT: I
Kyiv, and Kathy Kavalec was the
was in
8 Deputy Assistant Secretary for Russia, and so I was not aware
9 of what the nature of engagement between Assistant Secretary
l0 Nuland and Deputy Assistant Secretary Kavalec would have
ll been, no.
t2 MR. ZELDIN: Are you aware of Ambassador Yovanovitch
l3 ever hav'ing conversati ons wi th Ukrai ne of f i c'ials on speci f i c
20 MR. KENT: This was a case important for the rule of law
l6 t'4R. ZELDIN: And were there many other cases that you
22 14r . Mi tchel l .
73 BY MR. M]TCHELL:
24 a Si r, j n the last round, you mentioned securi ty
25 assi stance. Can you j ust generally descri be what Ukrai ne
300
5 A Yes.
6 a Which ones did you attend?
7 A The first one where this issue came up was
8 July L8th. It was a sub-PCC, to the best of my recollect'ion,
9 and the intended topic was
l0
ll a Was there any discussion of the meeting at the
t2 sub-PCC level on July LSth about any sort of freeze of the
l3 security assi stance to Ukrai ne?
t4 A Yes.
l5 a Can you descri be that di scussi on?
t6 A It was described as a hold, not a freeze. There
t7 was a representati ve of the 0f f i ce of l"{anagement and Budget.
l8 I was at the State Department in a security video conference,
t9 I did not recognize the face. And I believe the individual
20 representing OMB at the time was not normally the person who
2t did. It was the summer vacation cycles. And he just stated
22 to the rest of the those participants, either in person or
23 video screens, that the head of the 0ffice of l'lanagement and
24 Budget who was the acting chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, at
25 the direction of the President had put a hold on alI security
304
6 yes.
7 a Was there any discussion following that
8 announcement?
l6 conveyed j t.
t7 a And the individual being this gentleman from 0MB?
l8 A The representati ve f rom the 0t'48 i n that parti cular
l9 meeti ng, yes.
20 a Was that the end of that discussjon on this topic?
2t A Yes.
22 a 0n that day?
23 A Yes.
2 A I did.
3 a And who did you have those d j scuss'ions wj th?
4 A Tyler Brace, our schedule C political appointee,
5 former staffer for Senator Portman, who understand budgetary
6 processes in great detail.
7 a When did you have that conversation?
8 A I befieve I had it subsequent to the sub-PCC, same
9 day.
l0 a just describe what you talked about?
And can you
ll A We djscussed what the significance of that was
4 a To release funds.
5 A That was my understanding. You're talking about
6 the funds for USAI and the FMF fund?
7 a Correct.
8 A That was my understanding, Yes.
9 a Has your understanding since changed?
l0 A Wel1, eventually, the hold was released on
23 A Yes,
rescission at the end of the year, and indeed the next week,
2 at the beginning of August, he. sent out a data call with the
J intent potentially to execute a rescjssion involving billions
4 of dollars of assistance wortdwide, not just Ukraine.
5 a Okay. So, i n your experj ence, though, was thj s
6 unusual?
7 A I had read about Mr. Mulvaney's attempt to push a
l9 a 0kay. And you said that that was stl11 bei ng held
20 i n August?
2t A That hold, the 0MB-directed hold, was lifted on
22 September 11th.
23 a at the July 25th deputies' meeting?
What happened
24 A I did not participate in that meeting. Under
25 Secretary Hale represented the State Department, and I cannot
312
5 A I did.
6 a And is it in a similar form as the statement of
7 conclusi ons?
8 A To the best of mY knowledge, Yes.
9 a that readout?
And what do you reca11 from
l0 A The main takeaway for me was that Senior Director
ll Morrison was trying to find out when Secretary of State
t2 Pompeo and the Secretary of Defense would both be in
24 wanted to get the hold lifted so that we could get the money
25 apportioned by OMB and then obligated. And so we were at
314
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I 16:44 p.m. l
2 BY t"IR. MiTCHELL:
t2 by that?
l3 A i shared the I shared the sense that I had heard
t4 from Charge Taylor that Ambassador Sondland was engaged in
l5 the types of conversations that he was engaged in on Ukraine
l6 even though that was not part of hjs portfolio as our
t7 ambassador to the European Unjon.
l8 a And again, was this a conversation that you had
l9 with Deputy Assi stant Secretary t'4urphy and Fi sher i n wri ti ng
20 or jn person?
2t A Their offices are between 5 and 10 feet away from
22 my office and so I -- this was a djrect conversation jn thejr
23 offi ce.
24 a And what was thei r reac t i on?
25 A They were aware of the challenge of dealing with
318
ll A I do not.
t2 a At any point were you given a reason why the hold
13 was put in place?
I war with Russia when Russia began its war in 20L4. And
2 therefore, the training that we do, wh'ich is probably the
a
J most valuable in training Ukrainians to fight, as well as the
4 equipping that we do, have been critical to the success of
5 the Ukraj ni an armed forces i n defendi ng thei r country.
6 At the same time I would say that we probably derive
7 more benef i t f rom the relat'ionshi p than the Ukrai ni ans do.
8 a How so?
9 A That would be somethi ng to di scuss i n a classi fi ed
10 manner, parti cularly with my colleagues from the defense and
11 intel agenc i es .
l5 A Very much SO
l8 in D.C.?
t9 A Cor rect.
20 a with anyone
Have you had any conversations about
t7 you attempt to find out why the hold was in place so that you
l8 could actually have a meaningful conversation wjth the
l9 Ukrai ni ans about thi s i ssue?
I Department.
2 a And the Ukraine trip was on or about September
J l.1th?
4 A I arrived in Ukraine on September LLth, that's
5 correct.
6 a What djd you do with the this memo that you
7 wrote up on or about the 9th of September or 1lth of
8 5eptembe r?
t2 i n Ukrai ne.
l3 a And who did you give that memo to?
6 specifically?
7 A I do not recall precisely. I thjnk they were all
8 conce rned .
2 A Yes.
a
J a And when was the next conversat i on?
4 A The next conversation would have happened at the
6 15th.
7 a And where were you at that time?
8 A I was hi s house guest i n the ambassador' s resi dence
9 in Kyiv.
l0 a Okay. Can you describe who else was at that
ll A That was just Ambassador Taylor and me. He went
t2 out for a run, and I went down to breakfast, and we met and
13 talked 7:30 in the morning more or less.
t4 a What did you talk about?
l5 A We talked about the meeting that ambassador --
16 Charge Taylor and Spec'ia1 Representative Volker had had the
l7 night before with Andriy Yermak, the close personat aide of
l8 Presi dent Zelenskyy.
l9 O And what were you told?
20 A Well, that meeting was the one meeting on Kurt's
2t schedule in Ukraine that he felt uncomfortable with me
22 joining. He said that it was because of numbers. It was not
23 clear whether it would be just Yermak or whether he would
24 also bring a gentleman named Novokov (ph), whom I have not
25 met, and who 'is responsible for U.S. relations in the
329
I Pres'identi al of f i ce.
2 Kurt said he felt that having three Americans on one
J Ukraine was too much, and he said if there were a second
4 Ukrajnjan I could come. I decided not to push 1t since we
5 were involved in another event, as well as antjcipating that
6 there was going to be an awkward conversation, which there
7 was. And Charge Taylor provjded me the details of that
8 conversati on over breakfast.
9 a Whi ch were?
J that.
4 a Who said don't do that?
5 A Charge Taylor.
6 a So Taylor was concerned about the way in which this
7 conversation took place?
8 A Ply understanding is that he was concerned. And
23 A No.
I 'r n power.
2 a did you think it was appropriate for Vice
And
J President Biden to condition the release of the loan
4 guarantees on the firing of Prosecutor General Shokin?
5 A Prosecutor General Shokin was an impediment to the
6 reform of the prosecutorial system, and he had directly
7 undermi ned i n repeated fashi on U. S . efforts and U. S.
I that I wanted to ask you about. And thank you so much for
2 your patience and precision today and for the integrity that
J you have shown in every part of your career, Mr. Kent.
4 You mentioned at one point a conversation with Fiona
5 Hill in which she had relayed to you that the President had
6 had phone conversati ons wi th Vj ktor 0rban, the Pri me Mi ni ster
7 of told you that they had
Hungary, and Put'in i n whi ch she
8 both, I think you said, talked down Ukraine to the President.
9 Can you say a litt1e bit more about that? What do you
l0 reca11 of that?
1l MR. KENT: We11, to the best of my recollection, Fiona
t2 gave me a readout of both conversations at the Same time. It
l3 was a phone call with Pres'ident Putin on or about May 3rd.
t4 It was a meeting at the White House, so it was an in-person
l5 meeting on or about May 13th. The President's engagement of
t6 0rban included a l.-hour one-on-one, and then subsequently the
t7 Hungarian foreign minister, Szijjarto, and Ambassador Bolton
l8 j oi ned.
20 'interest i n the Uni ted States and the Presi dent of the Uni ted
2t States ending or diminishing our support for an i ndependen t
22 Ukra i ne?
23 MR. KENT: I would say that that' s Puti n's posi ti on. I
24 think 0rban is just happy to jam Ukra'ine.
25 t'4R . MAL I N0W5 KI : Okay . A1 1 ri ght, okay.
340
i of oppressi on i n the
nsti tuti ons that were the instruments
2 Sovi et Uni on. I t was the prosecutor'S office and the KGB or
l6 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
l8 Ki sI i n or Semeon (ph) Ki s1 i n?
23 Colonel Vindman, was that the 25th, the 27th? What day wi th
24 a that?
25 MR. KENT: It was a subsequent day. i do not I
349
6 L'ieutenant Colonel Vindman would 1et you know about this call
7 or was this somehow different?
8 MR. KENT: It was the normal process. He had given me a
9 simj 1ar readout for the Apri 1 2Lst ca11. What was di fferent
l0 was that his concern that he did not feel at liberty to
ll share all the substantive details of the cal1. That was what
t2 was d'if f erent. But the readout, that he was gi vi ng me a
t3 readout, was the normal Procedure.
t4 MR. JORDAN: And why wouldn't he share everything with
l5 you 'if i t's the normal process that you get bri ef ed, you get
l6 a readout of cal1s between the President of the United States
t7 and foreign heads of state in your area, your area of the
t8 world that you're responsible for and that you deal with?
19 And on the April call he gave you a fu11 readout. Is that
20 right?
2l MR. KENT: Correct, although jt was a short,
22 nonsubstant'i ve conversati on.
23 MR. JORDAN: 0kay. Well , were there other occasi on
I speci fi cally as possi b1y the hi ghest profi 1e case that you
6 2018, yes.
7 of these conversations with the
MR. ZELDIN: Were any
8 Ukraine Government about corruption cases that we felt
9 Ukrai ne shouldn't prosecute?
l0 I'm not aware of us ever telling Ukraine not
MR. KENT:
ll to prosecute a corrupt individual or a person believed to
t2 have engaged 'i n cor ruPt i on, no.
l3 MR. ZELDIN: Is it true that Ukraine prosecuted cases
I with Fiona Hi11, one in May and one you remember less of in
2 July. And obviously you had other conversat'ions wjth
a
J Lieutenant Colonel Vindman and Tim Morrison.
4 Were you ever aware of whether there was a separate
5 ei ther ind'ividual or individuals at the National Security
6 Council who were providing information to the President on
7 the Ukraine matter outside of ordinary channels?
8 A I did not hear about it and have no information
9 about that, no.
l0 a Are you familiar with someone by the name of Kash
lt Patel ?