COLD OPEN

MAYNARD:​ People think they're living in a free country, but you'll find out if you try to
exercise your freedom you're not so free.​ ​All those people who died to protect the
freedom that we're supposed to have, it looks like they died for nothing because
freedom doesn't really exist. In reality, it's only beautiful words or an expression of
freedom. That’s a sad thing, to die for something that you think you’re doing to protect
people’s freedom, and it doesn’t exist? That’s sad.

MIKE:​ Forty-five years ago, George Maynard committed a minor act of civil
disobedience that would have major implications for all Americans. He lived in New
Hampshire, which meant that he drove around with a certain phrase on his license
plate. The state motto.

MAYNARD: ​I covered up the Live Free or Die slogan with a red tape, a reflecting
tape.
VUOLO: ​Was it something you already had in your house or did you go out and
buy it?
MAYNARD: ​No, I went and purchased it. I bought it purposely for that.

MATT:​ That tape on Maynard’s car? That was the beginning of a yearslong legal battle
that would land George in jail, cost him his job, and turn him into one of the most
important First Amendment crusaders that you’ve probably never heard of.
MIKE:​ I’m Mike Vuolo.
MATT:​ I’m Matthew Schwartz.
MIKE:​ And this is Unprecedented, a show about men and women like George Maynard,
who pushed the boundaries of speech. Some of them are pornographers or religious
zealots. Even Klan members.
MATT:​ You know, they’re not always the kind of people you’d wanna be friends with,
but they ​are​ passionate. And determined. And they’ve helped us figure out what
“freedom of speech” actually means. If you look at the First Amendment, there are only
10 words on the topic: Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech.
MIKE: ​And those 10 words are just that—only words. We need real people to put them
to the test, to imbue them with meaning.
MATT:​ Today on Unprecedented: A license plate, a piece of tape and the right NOT to
speak.
MIKE:​ Also, we think of her as the 10th justice of the Supreme Court, NPR legal affairs
correspondent Nina Totenberg.
NINA: ​Mm-hmm.
MIKE: ​Like you’ve never heard her before.
NINA: ​(singing and laughter)
MIKE: ​Stick around.

TITLE BREAK

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MIKE:​ Here’s some things to know about George Maynard.

MAYNARD: I​ was born in West Warwick, Rhode Island, in 1932. I was mostly an
orphan boy because my mother died when I was three years old. They put me in
an orphanage until I was seven years old and I was put in boarding school. When
I got 18 years old, I went into the service. I was a paratrooper and I was shipped
over to Korea when they first broke out the war. I spent 11 months in Korea and I
returned home with frozen feet, and I was discharged at Massachusetts at Fort
Devens. But in 1952, I met my wife and we decided to get married, and she was
a blessing. It was G-d-sent for me.

MATT:​ He sounds so earnest and mild-mannered, not at all like the stereotype of a free
speech firebrand.
MIKE:​ No, he’s passionate but he’s no provocateur, and in fact this story is not at all
about what George Maynard ​said​. It’s about what he ​wouldn’t​ say in his adopted state
of New Hampshire. Here we are in the Granite State—they love their granite but there’s
something they love more. And that’s freedom, so much …
MATT:​ Wait, wait, wait. Did you just say, they love their granite and they love their
freedom.
MIKE:​ ​(laughter)​ No! I said they love their freedom more than their granite. So much
that they would rather die than be without it. Live Free or Die became the official state
motto in the 1940s and they put it on license plates in 1969. Five years later, George
Maynard is about to have his first run-in with the law.

VUOLO:​ Okay, I think that’s about as loud as I can make myself.

MAYNARD:​ Oh, that’s perfect. Okay, we were going home from shopping. I was
getting into my car, I had a blue Toyota. And a police officer was writing me up
with a summons.
ROBBINS: ​My name is Bryan Robbins and at the time I was a patrolman for the
city of Lebanon, New Hampshire. I remember giving a summons out to Mr.
Maynard for covering up a portion of his license plate sometime in the early
seventies.
MAYNARD: I​ covered up the Live Free or Die slogan with a red tape, a reflecting
tape.
VUOLO: ​Was it something you already had in your house or did you go out and
buy it?
MAYNARD: N ​ o, I went and purchased it. I bought it purposely for that.
ROBBINS: ​Aaaand he’d violated the law at that point.

MATT:​ Uhhh, I take it you can’t put tape on your license plate?
MIKE:​ No. No, not in New Hampshire, not in 1974. There was a law that said you can’t
cover up or obscure any of the numbers or letters that are on a license plate. If you do,
you get a citation, a fine.
MATT:​ Even the motto?
MIKE:​ Including the motto, yeah.

2
MATT:​ It is a great motto. It’s like everyone in New Hampshire is a superhero. LIVE
FREE OR DIE.
MIKE:​ ​[laughing]​ It does sound actually like a, I guess a Marvel tagline. I suspect that
most New Hampshirites would agree that it’s a great motto. Not George Maynard.

MAYNARD:​ I became a Jehovah’s Witness in 1956. I was baptized.

MATT:​ I don’t really see what being a Jehovah’s Witness has to do with the state motto.
MIKE:​ Hang with me a sec. Maynard may be living ​in​ the present, but he’s living ​for​ the
future, when all governments—including the state of New Hampshire—are replaced by
G-d’s Kingdom, paradise. And 1974 America was not paradise.​ A ​ lot of bad stuff going
on that year. Watergate. The serial killer Ted Bundy, the kidnapping of Patty Hearst.
Maynard is waiting for a world that’s free of these earthly concerns.

MAYNARD: I​ opposed the slogan for religious reasons. My Christian conscience

wouldn’t allow me to support that. My main belief is to live under a righteous rule,
G-d’s kingdom. In Revelation, he tells us that he will do away with sickness, pain,
and sorrow. And so this is the government that I’m looking for. We could see the
world is in a bad condition.​ ​There’s a lot of hatred in this world. But under G-d’s
kingdom there won’t be any at all. So that’s one of the reasons why I didn’t want
to support Live Free or Die, because I’d rather be in bondage and alive, and
worshipping my G-d and give him praises. And if I’m dead I can’t do that.

MATT:​ I would imagine that when the state legislature voted to put the state motto on all
the plates, they probably weren’t considering an objection like that.
MIKE:​ No, no I would imagine they absolutely were not. Think about it. Maynard is
steeped in a, a rather literal scriptural interpretation that would be, I think, difficult even
for most Christians to fully embrace.
MATT:​ So he covered up his plate. He didn’t wanna be forced to drive around with a
message that he disagreed with fundamentally, in his very heart. Did he get in trouble?
MIKE:​ The penalty would have been nothing if George Maynard agreed to stop
covering up his license plate. Which was something he just couldn’t do.

MAYNARD: ​They fined me $25, suspended. But I got arrested again because I
kept the tape on. They found me guilty again and then fined me a $50 fine.
ROBBINS: ​I believe he refused to pay and the judge sentenced him to some
time in the House of Correction.
MAYNARD: ​If I paid the fine, I would be admitting my guilt. I says I’m not guilty of
any wrongdoing. So what they did is, they sentenced me for 15 days in jail to pay
the fine.
ROBBINS: ​I mean he coulda paid the fine and be done with it, but he refused to
pay.

MATT:​ It’s ironic that Maynard would lose his freedom for covering up the phrase Live
Free or Die.

3
MIKE:​ Yeah, and that, that irony was not lost on Mr. Maynard.

MAYNARD: I​ t’s a strange thing that a person that is a war veteran, he has to end
up in jail because he refused to be dictated to, and refused to say Live Free or
Die. In Germany, people refuse to say Heil Hitler, they were put in concentration
camps. But in the state of New Hampshire they put you in jail. That’s not
freedom. That’s, that’s dictatorship. You know, for a state to deprive a man to
earn a living and to support and provide the needs of the family. [crying]
VUOLO:​ Hello? Hello?
MAYNARD: I​ 'm sorry. I got emotional. I'm shedding some tears right now
because ...
VUOLO: ​I'm sorry Mr. Maynard.
MAYNARD: M ​ y family—my family suffered unjust—unjustly. [crying] I get
emotional just thinking of it. One of my daughters was eight years old. And she's
54 now. This happened 40 years ago but it still hurts to know that those poor kids
were suffering. They went through a drama to see their father go to jail. That is a
terrible thing to experience. And the state should be ashamed of themselves for
bringing a hardship to a family that wasn't deserving, just to promote a slogan.

MIKE:​ The state confiscated Maynard’s plates, so he couldn’t drive. Which meant he
couldn’t work. He had a job at a print shop—he was a negative assembler, he called
it—and they replaced him. George was devastated and he channeled that despair into
action. He sued the Sheriff’s Department of Lebanon, New Hampshire for violating his
First Amendment rights and it went to the Supreme Court.
MATT:​ So we’re looking at a First Amendment challenge.
MIKE:​ Right, but how do we use those words in the First Amendment—Congress shall
make no law abridging the freedom of speech—how do we use that to decide whether
or not the law that Maynard is challenging is Constitutional?
MATT:​ We’ll find out, after the break. But first—Live Free or Die? Come on, did Stan
Lee write that?
MIKE:​ Coming soon, or never, to a theater near you:

GRANITEMAN TRAILER

NARRATOR: ​Forged in the igneous quarries of New Hampshire, this chip off the
old block must live free … or die. Meet the superhero who puts the bad guys
between a rock and a hard place. From WAMU Studios, it’s Graniteman!
GRANITEMAN:​ I love my granite, and I love my freeeeeedooommmmm!!!
NARRATOR: ​This summer, don’t take your freedom … for granite.

4
BREAK

5
 BURGER:​ We’ll hear arguments next in Wooley against Maynard.​ Mr.
Kohn?
KOHN:​ ​Mr. Chief Justice and may it please the court.

MATT: ​That is Maynard’s attorney, Richard Kohn, arguing before the Supreme Court
back in the 1970s. Here he is today.

KOHN: ​I think the crux of the matter is that in a free society one's beliefs should
be shaped by his own mind and his conscience rather than coerced by the state.

MIKE:​ That sounds like a poetic way of saying that here in America, we should be able
to think for ourselves. But I wanna bring this back down to the level of, you know,
license plates and state mottos. Matt, you are the lawyer. What is the specific issue
here before the Supreme Court?
MATT:​ Okay, the ​specific q ​ uestion the Court has to answer is this: Can the state have a
law that requires an individual driving a car on the state’s roads to carry a message on
that car that he or she disagrees with?
MIKE:​ Mm-hmm.
MATT:​ Or does a law like that violate the First Amendment? That’s the issue. And the
state of New Hampshire tries to pre-empt this whole case by saying, wait a second,
First Amendment? We don’t need to bring the First Amendment into this. Because
carrying the state motto on your license plate doesn’t count as speech.
MIKE:​ What? That makes no sense to me. Speech doesn’t need to be spoken, right? It
can be written too. And this whole case is about how Mr. Maynard is being forced to say
something—in the form of a motto embossed on his license plate—that he doesn’t
wanna say. It’s, it’s the First Amendment.
MATT:​ No, no, Mike, New Hampshire argued that the state isn’t forcing Maynard to say
anything. The motto’s on everybody’s car. Not just George’s car, it’s everywhere. It’s
clearly not George Maynard’s message. Nobody thinks it’s Maynard’s message. It’s just,
it’s the motto! It’s just a thing, it’s on the cars.
MIKE:​ Oh, so everybody’s saying it.
MATT:​ Right!
MIKE:​ Therefore nobody’s saying it.
MATT:​ Exactly! Maynard’s got it on his car. I’ve got it on my car. You’ve got it on your
car. Everybody’s saying it so nobody’s saying it. So no speech. No First Amendment
issues at all. That’s the argument.
MIKE:​ I’m not buying it.
MATT:​ Okay, well here’s the attorney for the state of New Hampshire, Robert Johnson
II, telling the Supreme Court that most people in New Hampshire don’t even pay
attention to the motto on the license plates.

JOHNSON:​ ​They accept it as the fact that it is required to be placed on their

license plates by the legislature in New Hampshire. ​By no stretch of the
imagination can the appellees be said to agree with the State motto merely
because it’s required to be placed on their license plates. Nebraska, “The

6
 Cornhusker State,” does everyone seeing a vehicle from Nebraska
reasonably believe that the registrant of that vehicle necessarily himself
believes that Nebraska is a cornhusker state or that everyone in Nebraska
is a cornhusker? A license plate hangs out at the end of the vehicle and
nobody can reasonably say that this is an affirmation of faith, a required
affirmation of belief on the part of the registrant of a motor vehicle.

MIKE:​ I, I understand the argument that he’s making. But the point isn’t whether
anybody believes that Maynard himself agrees with Live Free or Die. The point is that
Maynard strongly ​disagrees​ with Live Free or Die and doesn’t want it on his car. This is
about what Maynard is being forced to say against his will.
MATT:​ In fact, some of the Justices made that very point. Here’s Justice Potter Stewart.

POTTER STEWART:​ It’s compelling somebody to advertise a belief in

which he doesn’t believe either because of religious reasons or political or
philosophical reasons?
KOHN:​ That’s correct. Yes, sir.

MATT:​ And on this particular point, the Court agreed. Here’s Richard Kohn.

KOHN: ​The importance of the Maynard v. Wooley case is the Court did
recognize that there was expression going on here.

MIKE:​ Yeah of course there’s expression going on here. And it’s not, it’s not some
anodyne phrase. This is expression that contains a point of view. Live Free or Die is
ideological. In fact, it’s, it’s dogmatic.
MATT:​ It is a very strong statement. So the motto does count as speech. Now with that
established, we can get to the heart of the issue. Here’s how the Supreme Court
decides a question like this: If the state of New Hampshire wants to force Maynard to
speak, it has to demonstrate that it has what’s called a “compelling state interest” for
doing so. In plain English, all that means is that the government needs to show it has a
really good reason for the law.
MIKE:​ So, the Supreme Court is saying, look, New Hampshire, you are potentially
violating a fundamental principle of the Constitution—the First Amendment—by forcing
somebody to speak. We’re not saying that you CAN’T do that, but you have to convince
us that it’s necessary.
MATT: ​Right, they gotta show a ​compelling interest​.
MIKE: ​Okay, so then what counts as a compelling interest?
MATT:​ Aha! That’s the million-dollar question. And it’s basically whatever a majority of
the Supreme Court says it is.
MIKE:​ Oh, that’s satisfying.
MATT:​ Well, I mean the justices have ​some​ guidance. National security usually counts
as a compelling state interest, for instance. You know, laws that protect the safety of our
citizens, that sort of thing.
MIKE:​ Okay.

7
MATT:​ But there’s a lot of gray area. And every justice brings their own personal
beliefs, their own biases, their own analyses to figure out whether New Hampshire has
a really good reason for the law.
MIKE:​ I actually can’t imagine what that reason would be, but I’m listening.
MATT:​ Well, the government was arguing a couple of things. First, that promoting this
message …
MIKE:​ Live Free or Die?
MATT:​ Live Free or Die. Promoting that message is a good and healthy thing for the
state. Here’s Chief Justice Warren Burger questioning Robert Johnson, the attorney for
New Hampshire.

BURGER:​ Does your case depend upon this having been declared the
motto of the state officially by the legislature?
JOHNSON: ​I think, Mr. Chief Justice, that it does have some bearing
because by the legislature’s having so declared this to be the official state
motto, the legislature has in effect said that the motto is of importance to
the state of New Hampshire, which brings me to the interests of the state of
New Hampshire in having the motto on its license plates. The motto not
only symbolizes the heritage of New Hampshire, it fosters an appreciation
of … ​(interrupted; fade audio under)

MATT: ​He was interrupted but you get the point.

MIKE: ​I do and I gotta be honest. That sounds tautological to me. The state of New
Hampshire is arguing that because the legislature has declared Live Free or Die to be
the official state motto, that it’s important. And therefore because it’s important, it needs
to appear on all of the plates?
MATT:​ It’s important because it’s important.
MIKE:​ Yeah, it’s important because it involves history and state pride I suppose. But
there are other ways to promulgate the state motto. They don’t need to force people to
put it on their license plates. That, that doesn’t feel like a compelling state interest to
me, a really good reason.
MATT:​ Okay. Well, the state gave another reason.

JOHNSON:​ Secondly, the motto Live Free or Die, and its requirement that it
be placed upon motor vehicle license plates has to do with the registration
of motor vehicles, the use of the highways, and efficient registration
system of motor vehicles and other recognizable interests of the state of
New Hampshire.

MIKE:​ Whew, I don’t even really know what that means.

MATT:​ Basically, the state was just arguing that the motto on the license plates shows
which cars are non-commercial passenger vehicles and so that’s why they needed the
motto on the plates.
MIKE:​ First of all, I’m not sure why they need to distinguish between non-commercial
and commercial vehicles, but I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they do.
8
MATT:​ Okay.
MIKE:​ Why can’t they just make the plates a different color?
MATT:​ That would do it.
MIKE:​ I mean, it sounds to me like maybe the state was looking for a justification after
the fact.
MATT:​ Again, probably not a compelling interest. And now Maynard’s attorney, Richard
Kohn, comes in to deliver the final blow. Here he is at the Supreme Court.

KOHN:​ They’ve selected a message which they want to project. They select
a billboard: it has to appear on all non-commercial license plates in the
State and then they make it a criminal offense to cover that over. ​I think
that if the Court were to uphold this sort of thing, then the State could
require all citizens to wear a pin or an armband or they could require you to
have a plaque on your door next your address saying “Live Free or Die.”

MATT: ​By a vote of 7-2, the Supreme Court ruled that George Maynard has the right to
cover up his license plate.

BOB EDWARDS:​ From National Public Radio in Washington, this is Bob

Edwards.
SUSAN STAMBERG:​ And I’m Susan Stamberg with All Things Considered.
BOB EDWARDS: T ​ oday the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a state may not
require drivers to display the state motto on a license plate. More from NPR
Legal Affairs Correspondent Nina Totenberg.
NINA TOTENBERG:​ Today’s ruling involves the personal battle of a New
Hampshire couple named George and Maxine Maynard. Writing for the Court,
Chief Justice Warren Burger said that the First Amendment guarantee to
freedom of expression entitles a person to speak freely, and also not to speak at
all.

MATT: ​This is a victory not just for George Maynard, but for Mike Vuolo. Matthew
Schwartz. ​Every A ​ merican. All because Maynard wouldn’t simply pay the fine and be
done with it. The Supreme Court took this opportunity to reaffirm an incredibly important
principle: That we cannot be coerced to say things that we disagree with.
MIKE:​ Yeah, lemme just read from Warren Burger’s opinion. He says: “The right to
speak and the right to refrain from speaking are complementary components of the
broader concept of ‘individual freedom of mind.’” This is the Court recognizing that the
First Amendment is not just about what you say, it’s about what you don’t want to say.
MATT:​ That’s beautifully written.
MIKE:​ It is. But, it occurs to me as I hear those words out loud, we neglected to ask
George Maynard how ​he​ felt about this historic victory.
MATT: ​I imagine he’s happy?
MIKE: ​Yeah, I imagine he is, but I’d like to hear it from him.
MATT: ​Well let’s give him a call.

9
MIKE:​ Let’s call him. He did leave New Hampshire a while ago. He and his wife now
live in Connecticut, which is the Constitution State.
MATT:​ Connecticut, huh? Who’s the superhero in Connecticut?
MIKE:​ Maynard, I guess.

MAYNARD:​ G ​ ood afternoon!

VUOLO: M ​ r. Maynard, this is Mike.
MAYNARD:​ Hi Mike, how are you doing?
VUOLO:​ Good, good. We had one more question to ask you if you don’t mind.
How do you feel about the fact that you went through this saga—you spent a
couple of weeks in jail, there was a really profound effect on your family—but
ultimately you were vindicated?
MAYNARD:​ Well, in which way was I vindicated? Why did the Supreme Court,
was it 7-2?
VUOLO: Y ​ es.
MAYNARD: S ​ o, it wasn’t a hundred percent. How come? If we are free, and the
law says that we are free to exercise our freedom of thinking and speech, how
come we didn’t get a hundred percent?

MIKE:​ That is a really good question. Why ​wasn’t​ it a hundred percent?

MATT: ​Well, the dissent acknowledged that people ​do ​have a right to refrain from
speaking. They just didn’t think that the state motto on every license plate actually
counted as speech.
MIKE: ​You mean the “everybody’s saying it, therefore nobody’s saying it” argument. It’s
on all the cars.
MATT:​ Exactly, everybody’s saying it so nobody’s saying it.
MIKE:​ Also, Matt remind us what the Court had to go on in the late 1970s. Had there
been a Compelled Speech case before that time that would have informed their
thinking?
MATT:​ That’s a good question. Umm, I think we should ask the 10th Justice. She was
there.
MIKE:​ Oh, ladies and gentlemen, Nina Totenberg.

ATC MUSIC

NINA:​ [chuckling]
MATT:​ Can you just tell us what the problem was with the All Things Considered
theme in the 1970s? Did NPR think that was cool?
NINA:​ Well, first of all, they didn't have the money for an orchestra. [laughter]
You know, it was a decent tune.
MATT:​ But you were dancing along. I just want to point out that Nina Totenberg’s
head was bobbing up and down in the studio as she was listening to that.
NINA:​ I would have speeded it up a little bit. [singing]
MIKE:​ It’s like a rave in here all of a sudden. Nina, we referred to you as the 10th
Justice. Is that fair?

10
NINA:​ That's fine. I'm happy to be the 10th justice. It makes more women on the
Court. I'm with Ruth Ginsburg, when they’re all nine, that's when I'll be happy.
MATT:​ Alright, Nina. When this case was decided, what did the justices have to
go on? Like, what was the state of the law on compelled speech before George
Maynard covered up his license plate?
NINA:​ Well, I don’t think there was a lot. In 1943, which is after all, a long time
before this, the Court, in the middle of WWII said that you cannot force a student
at a public school to stand and salute the flag, if that is contrary to that
individual’s, in this case, beliefs and religion. It was a remarkable opinion
because it was in the middle of WWII, and it was written by Justice Robert
Jackson, who’s one of the wise men of the Court of the 20th century. He wrote so
beautifully, and he said, “If there is any fixed star in our constitutional
constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be
orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion or other matters of opinion, or force
citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.”
MATT:​ Any fixed star in our constitutional constellation.
NINA:​ Mmm.
MATT:​ So, with that as the backdrop—that decision—fast forward 30, 35 years,
George Maynard asked us: Why wasn’t this a 9 to 0 decision? Which, given the
Court’s opinion in the flag salute case, I think it’s a valid question. Can you shed
any light on that?
NINA: ​Well, there were two dissenters: Justice—eventually to become Chief
Justice—William Rehnquist, and Harry Blackmun from Minnesota, who my guess
is would not have reached the same result, you know 10 or 15 years later. He did
change over time in his view. And what Rehnquist said was that we’re not really
putting words in your mouth, we’re not even making you salute the flag.
Everybody knows you have to have a license plate. Nobody really thinks that you
believe everything that’s on the license plate. At the same time, “Live Free or
Die” was sort of a—as I recall it, and I was alive then (laughter)—as I recall it,
sort of a, a defiant anti-government, keep-your-hands-off-of-me-in-all-respects
kind of expression. Maynard thought he was being drafted, essentially, into this
expression, and it almost didn’t matter what it was. It was not his, and it was
almost like a false G-d, in a way.
MIKE:​ Mm-hmm.
NINA:​ And it’s no accident that a lot of these cases, at least in that period of time,
involved Jehovah’s Witnesses. Because they had such strong religious views
about the state superseding their G-dly beliefs.
MATT: ​In fact, the flag salute case was also brought by Jehovah’s Witnesses.
NINA:​ Right. That’s right. It’s no accident that these—and there are other cases.
I think they also were easier for the Court because nobody really felt threatened
by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. There weren’t a lot of them. It wasn’t going to be a
problem. If every Catholic in the state wanted a different license, and every Jew
wanted a different license, it might have been more problematic.
MIKE:​ Nina, you live in the District of Columbia, DC …
NINA:​ Mm-hmm

11
 MIKE:​ … where the license plates all say, “Taxation without Representation.”
NINA:​ Mm-hmm.
MIKE:​ How do you feel about that slogan?
NINA:​ I haven’t given it two seconds of thought.
MATT:​ You drive around with it every day.
NINA:​ Mm-hmm.
MATT:​ You carry it around like a mobile billboard on the back of your car.
NINA:​ Well, we are taxed and we don’t have full representation so I don’t
disagree with it.
MIKE:​ Would you prefer a different slogan?
NINA:​ You mean like, “Listen to NPR”? (laughter)
MIKE:​ That would be a little self-serving.
MATT:​ That’s what bumper stickers are for.
MIKE:​ So Maynard was in 1977, the decision. And compelled speech cases
come up in front of the Court every five, six, seven years or so.
NINA:​ Or more.
MIKE:​ We’ll be talking next episode about another compelled speech case that
you also covered, this one from just last year.
NINA:​ Yes, only this one involves abortion, people who claim they were tricked.
This is not about just some license plate. This is about how people live their lives,
and the values by which they live their lives, and the freedom to live their lives as
they see fit, and the freedom of others to prevent what they see as murder.
MATT:​ It's not quite as easy a question as the George Maynard case.
NINA:​ No, not nearly as easy a question.
MIKE:​ I have one final question for you, Nina. The Maynard opinion was written
by a man named Warren Burger. He joined the Court in the late 1960s. Earlier
that decade, there was a man on the Court named Felix Frankfurter.
NINA:​ Mm-hmm.
MIKE:​ Frankfurter? Burger? How do you explain that?
NINA: ​(laughter) Well they were probably both baseball fans. (raucous laughter)
You are so pathetic. (laughter)

MATT:​ Unprecedented was produced at WAMU. Our editor is Poncie Rutsch.

MIKE: ​Ben Privot is our audio engineer and Andi McDaniel is WAMU’s Director of
Content and News.
MATT:​ JJ Yore is WAMU’s general manager. And the Granite Man and the Granite Man
narrator were voiced by Joshua Brown and Joshua Bornfield.
MIKE:​ If you love the show, tell your friends, tell your family, tell your pets. Also, rate
and review Unprecedented on your podcast app.
MATT:​ Tell your pets?
MIKE:​ Why not?
MATT:​ What are they gonna do with it?
MIKE:​ Sometimes people let podcasts play for their animals while they’re out of the
house.

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MATT:​ That’s a good point. Also, if you want more podcasts like Unprecedented, please
become a member of WAMU. They produce and distribute Unprecedented and other
great shows.
MIKE:​ Head to WAMU DOT org SLASH donate, and tell them you're giving because
you love Unprecedented.

CODA

MAYNARD:​ You know, the Bible says if you’re older than 70 years old you have extra
might. And so, evidently, Jehovah gave me extra might to be able to enjoy life very
much. Life is very precious. It’s a wonderful gift. To live forever in a paradise Earth is
something to live for. And die for. And I’m willing to do that. That’s the one I’d be willing
to die for.

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