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#1
Old Dec 6, '11, 10:27 pm
ExplosiveOxygen ExplosiveOxygen is offline
New Member
Join Date: December 5, 2011

Posts: 49
Religion: None
Default Book of Daniel
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExplosiveOxygen View Post
The book of daniel gives prophecy.
Okay simple...
Does the Roman Catholic church have any advice on what it means?
which nations are the beasts? Which nation is the little horn?
I have come upon other denominations giving examples that just don't seem to make sense
because they divide rather than unite.
I used google but I can't seem to find the answer.
Specifically Daniel 2 and 7

Thank you!
Quote:
I'm having trouble finding any answers to this. The best I can find is that those writing hateful and
divisive things are liars and scammers, but ad hominem does not defeat the argument.
I want an answer to this, this section seems more active than the traditional Catholicism.
#2
Old Dec 6, '11, 11:56 pm
MorningSong51 MorningSong51 is offline
Regular Member
Join Date: July 2, 2011

Posts: 644
Default Re: Book of Daniel
Quote:
I know that you need an answer about the Daniel 2 & 7, however, what has me confused is chapter
7:13, as there are many variations, "This passage forms the foundation for the declaration of Christ
regarding His future coming, which is described after Daniel 7:13 as a coming of the Son of man
with, in, on the clouds of heaven; Matthew 24:30; Matthew 26:64; Mark 18:26; Revelation 1:7;
Revelation 14:14 and if you read from the Torah, "like the clouds of Heaven came one like the son
of man" (Daniel 7:13) and "one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven". Could the
meaning of the verse indicate with the great patriarchs? To issue the great judgment -
Again, it is difficult to assume the description of those verses based on only one source -
especially with the variations of how it's written - and the language also another thing is there are
basically 70/72 nations listed under the kingdoms of God, however, with the Canaanites - Israel
replaces them as well as there are others who have been replaced and other tribes that assumed
them - also listing those who have been priest/kings prior to the kingdom of Israel as we've read
this in Genesis 14, ' 18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was
priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying..."
You could read Daniel 2 & 7 and compare it to the parable of the weeds and the wheat - "He who
sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world;
and the good seed, these are the children of the kingdom; and the darnel are the children of the evil
one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are
angels." - all very speculative on that. Again, this is an assumption because we could discuss this
as being individuals or nations....
Genesis chapter 10 describes how the present world population was derived from Noah's three
sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth, and their wives (three family groups). Verse 32 states, "From these
the nations spread out over the earth after the flood." Additional references are given in 1
Chronicles chapter 1. Genesis 10 exactly names 16 grandsons of Noah, and then we are provided
further details of the Babel dispersion (Genesis 11) where their descendants fanned out over the
earth and established the various nations of the ancient world. The number of descendants of Noah
(grandsons, great-grandsons, etc.) mentioned are 26 from Shem, 30 from Ham, and 14 from
Japheth, totaling 70 "sons" or "nations." These 70 nations are the descendants (generations,
genealogies or family histories) of the sons of Noah, known from Hebrew antiquity (Talmudic
tradition of seventy nations in the world), and other ancient sources. Most, if not all, tribes and
nations can be traced to these men through their descendants. Chapter 10 describes the
differentiation of nations, and asserts that we were all descended from Noah. It is important to
understand that people and nations are referred to in a genealogical form (common in Hebrew and
other Semitic languages).
We're not even adding the tribes that came from Ishmael and Isaac or Esau and Jacob.....or the
divisions Joseph and the 12 twelve tribes of Israel. There is an order to which nation and tribe each
belongs too - again, the mixture of weeds and wheat are diffidently visible. So it would have to be
impossible to figure out the other side -of who these nations are in Daniel and also those that are
opposed and still not see where these countries originated out of which son or tribe? The leading
Afghan tribes,claim with pride to be descended from King Saul of the tribe of Benjamin. So I
would think it would be difficult - especially, when there are other parts of scripture that come into
play....
reference:
http://www.soundchristian.com/man/
#3
Old Dec 7, '11, 4:18 pm
CopticChristian CopticChristian is offline
Banned

Posts: 10,218
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
Scott Hahn routinely refers to this vision and points out that Paul and every other person that
understood the OT at the time understood this vision and why Paul wanted to get to Rome...
http://www.stmargaretmary.com/rcia/SHahnAdultEd12.html
Quote:
Lastly, in the Old Testament we have what I regard as the greatest series of prophecies concerning
what it means to be Catholic. I mean, you could go elsewhere. There are many prophecies that I
should mention: Habakkuk 2:14 promises us that the knowledge of the Lord shall cover the earth
as the waters cover the sea, which the Catholic Church is fulfilling through history. But Daniel, the
prophet Daniel gives to us a great prophetic insight and hope into the nature of the kingdom's
catholicity in a time of great corruption and affliction. And here in Babylon Nebuchadnezzar rules
as a pagan. He has crushed Jerusalem, he has destroyed the temple, he has dispersed the
inhabitants and he has taken captive people like Daniel. Then he has a nightmare and he
commands that the wise men come in and interpret it. Nobody can. Daniel comes in and he
interprets the dream that Nebuchadnezzar had. He tells Nebuchadnezzar that in your dream you
saw this great image of a statue with a gold head and silver shoulders and bronze belly and bronze
thighs and legs of iron and feet of iron and clay.
DANIEL PROPHECIES THE CATHOLICITY OF GOD'S FUTURE KINGDOM
Nebuchadnezzar was impressed. He didn't even have to tell Daniel the dream. Daniel knew the
dream, and then he proceeded to interpret it. He said, "You, O king, are the gold head, Babylon,
but there will come a kingdom after you that will take over your authority." He was referring to
the Medo-Persian empire which corresponded to the silver shoulders. Then he goes on to describe
how the bronze belly, the Greek empire under Alexander the Great would take it away from the
Medes and the Persians. Then fourthly, a great and terrible power would be raised up, the legs of
iron, terribly strong, referring to the Roman empire.
Then what happens? He goes on to describe this. He says, "As you looked, a stone was cut out but
by no human hand and it smote the image on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces.
Then the iron and the clay, the silver and the bronze and the gold all together were broken into
pieces and became like the chaff on the summer threshing-floors and the wind carried them away
so that not a trace of them could be found." This little stone fell upon the fourth empire, the
Roman empire symbolized by the iron legs, broke the feet, shattered the legs and the whole image
crumbled and blew away. A little small stone; but the stone that struck the image became a great
mountain and filled the whole earth. And he goes on to interpret this particular kingdom and he
says, "In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be
destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these
kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it shall stand forever."
He goes on to point out that Jesus is the stone to destroy the final Kingdom..
Quote:
What is he talking about? Well, there is only one kingdom that came down from heaven as a small
stone which the builders rejected and it became the cornerstone of the new temple. The word for
stone in Hebrew, "evan", is almost the same as the word for son, "ben." So the son is the stone
who came down and, through His sacrifice and through His spiritual kingdom in the Church,
destroyed the fourth and final empire in Rome and brought about a worldwide empire that will last
forever, whose citizens we are.
and if the final Kingdom Rome is to be destroyed and a new Kingdom set up that is why Paul and
everyone that understood the OT wanted to get to Rome..
#4
Old Dec 7, '11, 6:10 pm
New Member

Posts: 49
Religion: None
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian View Post
Aha, it is so simple, I did not take the time to reflect on this. Thank you. I don't have time to read
the links in depth right now, but does it also offer in there an explanation for the 10 horns and the
1 horn that became the greatest and destroyed 3 others? Thank you!
#5
Old Dec 8, '11, 2:38 am
New Member

Posts: 49
Religion: None
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorningSong51 View Post
I know that you need an answer about the Daniel 2 & 7, however, what has me confused is chapter
7:13, as there are many variations, "This passage forms the foundation for the declaration of Christ
regarding His future coming, which is described after Daniel 7:13 as a coming of the Son of man
with, in, on the clouds of heaven; Matthew 24:30; Matthew 26:64; Mark 18:26; Revelation 1:7;
Revelation 14:14 and if you read from the Torah, "like the clouds of Heaven came one like the son
of man" (Daniel 7:13) and "one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven". Could the
meaning of the verse indicate with the great patriarchs? To issue the great judgment -
Again, it is difficult to assume the description of those verses based on only one source -
especially with the variations of how it's written - and the language also another thing is there are
basically 70/72 nations listed under the kingdoms of God, however, with the Canaanites - Israel
replaces them as well as there are others who have been replaced and other tribes that assumed
them - also listing those who have been priest/kings prior to the kingdom of Israel as we've read
this in Genesis 14, ' 18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was
priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying..."
You could read Daniel 2 & 7 and compare it to the parable of the weeds and the wheat - "He who
sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world;
and the good seed, these are the children of the kingdom; and the darnel are the children of the evil
one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are
angels." - all very speculative on that. Again, this is an assumption because we could discuss this
as being individuals or nations....
Genesis chapter 10 describes how the present world population was derived from Noah's three
sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth, and their wives (three family groups). Verse 32 states, "From these
the nations spread out over the earth after the flood." Additional references are given in 1
Chronicles chapter 1. Genesis 10 exactly names 16 grandsons of Noah, and then we are provided
further details of the Babel dispersion (Genesis 11) where their descendants fanned out over the
earth and established the various nations of the ancient world. The number of descendants of Noah
(grandsons, great-grandsons, etc.) mentioned are 26 from Shem, 30 from Ham, and 14 from
Japheth, totaling 70 "sons" or "nations." These 70 nations are the descendants (generations,
genealogies or family histories) of the sons of Noah, known from Hebrew antiquity (Talmudic
tradition of seventy nations in the world), and other ancient sources. Most, if not all, tribes and
nations can be traced to these men through their descendants. Chapter 10 describes the
differentiation of nations, and asserts that we were all descended from Noah. It is important to
understand that people and nations are referred to in a genealogical form (common in Hebrew and
other Semitic languages).
We're not even adding the tribes that came from Ishmael and Isaac or Esau and Jacob.....or the
divisions Joseph and the 12 twelve tribes of Israel. There is an order to which nation and tribe each
belongs too - again, the mixture of weeds and wheat are diffidently visible. So it would have to be
impossible to figure out the other side -of who these nations are in Daniel and also those that are
opposed and still not see where these countries originated out of which son or tribe? The leading
Afghan tribes,claim with pride to be descended from King Saul of the tribe of Benjamin. So I
would think it would be difficult - especially, when there are other parts of scripture that come into
play....
reference:
http://www.soundchristian.com/man/
Thank you!
#6
Old Dec 8, '11, 8:39 am
Regular Member

Posts: 644
Quote:
I did read your link and I thought it was very informative. Though there was another thought to all
of this:
Not much different than what I understood: http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/daniel.htm
Only that in both the commentaries, it notes: 7:1-8 The first of these two visions (chapter 7), when
more closely viewed, resolves itself into four, with their interpretations, but we shall treat it singly.
The lion (v.4) corresponds to the golden head of Nebuchadnezzar's image, and stands for Babylon.
The bear (v. 5) corresponds to the best and arms of silver, and stands for the MedoPersian empire.
Being "raised up on one side," means that one part of the empire was stronger than the other,
which was Persia. The "three ribs in the mouth of it" are the three provinces conquered by it not
long before, Susiana, Lydia and Asia Minor. The leopard (v. 6) is the Grecian empire,
corresponding to the "belly and thighs of brass."
"It is remarkable that the heraldic insignia of the Gentile nations are all beasts or birds of prey."
The "sea," in Scripture, stands for the peoples of the earth (Isa. 17:5, Rev. 17:15). The "great sea"
Daniel saw was the Mediterranean, the center of the prophetic earth. That is, where not otherwise
indicated, the nations with which prophecy has to do chiefly, are those that border on that sea, or
whose political affiliation are closely related to them."
Is there any differences in this scriptural point about the parable of the weeds and the wheat that
Jesus mentioned in Matt 13:24-30; 36-43? when you read Daniel 2 & 7 and compare it to the
parable of the weeds and the wheat - "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is
the world; and the good seed, these are the children of the kingdom (see Deuteronomy 32, as
compared to Romans (Romans 11:17 ) - isn't that the same as the replacement of the Canaanites,
as the Israelites replaced the Canaanites, fortifying the city on the northern "horn" (Horns of
Hittim - in Hebrew the name of the hill is "Karnei Khittin", or the horns of the wheat, since in
Hebrew these words mean Karnei = Horns, Hittin = wheat.)
(http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/Hittim.html#SouthHorn) ; and the darnel are the children of the
evil one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the
reapers are angels (Unetanneh Tokef)." - There's an assumption to all of this because we could
discuss which individuals or nations....as much as kingdoms will rise and fall.
Just a small note, Germany, and during WWII, was a small country but being small (as in the little
horn - which is very similar) grew and encompassed Europe. The great evil, was the fact of how
much of Europe that this small country encompassed -it was "only" by the grace God (and very
much so...) we where able to stop it, but remember how much damages were done before it was
stopped and compare that to what's on its way.
Personally if we look at the list of mortal sin, tell me how many that we've encountered so far:
he Church also tells us that the sins of anger, blasphemy, envy, hatred, malice, murder, neglect of
Sunday obligation, sins against faith (incredulity against God or heresy), sins against hope
(obstinate despair in the hope for salvation and/or presumption that oneself can live without God
or be saved by one’s own power) and sins against love (indifference towards charity, ingratitude,
and/or hatred of God) also constitute grave matter. This list of grave sins, is based on Jesus
Christ’s interpretation of the gravity of the Ten Commandments. Grave sins can be classed as sins
against God, neighbor and self, and can further be divided into carnal and spiritual sins (CCC
1853).
Four other sins are considered grave also. These sins not only offend God, but men as well. Thus
these four sins are called "the sins that cry to heaven for vengeance" and are likewise mortal sins.
These grave sins are:
The voluntary murder (Genesis 4:10)

The sin of impurity against nature –Sodomy and homosexual relations (Genesis 18:20)
Taking advantage of the poor (Exodus 2:23)
Defrauding the workingman of his wages (James 5:4)
Finally, the capital sins are also considered grave matter. These sins are vices and are defined as
contrary to the Christian virtues of holiness. They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony,
and sloth (acedia).
http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html
#7
Old Dec 8, '11, 9:07 am
Regular Member

Posts: 644
Quote:
Thank you!
You're more than welcome - however, while I think it maybe good to understand both the O.T as
well as to compare it with the N.T, and also while I think scriptural understanding is so important,
it is rather frustrating/and defeating not to have the tools (spiritual) inside to be able to overcome
some of issues that we're facing in today's society - or for us to understand of which
kingdoms/nations will arise and fall, but (again) how can some prepare for what lays in the
forefront - in the same way, imagine (and using this for an example (again)) how were we able to
prepare for what happened in WWI and WWII? Read Lamentations and get the idea of it - because
it wasn't much different. We saw what evil can do - if memory serves me correctly that war was
the war of wars.....I had a nice discussion with our neighbor from Russia, Jewish, from a Czech's
point of view - I don't know which was worst. Look at the rise of leaders during that time....that
should tell you how evil - evil can get....
#8
Old Dec 15, '11, 1:50 pm
Banned

Posts: 10,218
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
I did read your link and I thought it was very informative. Though there was another thought to all
of this:
Not much different than what I understood: http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/daniel.htm
Only that in both the commentaries, it notes: 7:1-8 The first of these two visions (chapter 7), when
more closely viewed, resolves itself into four, with their interpretations, but we shall treat it singly.
The lion (v.4) corresponds to the golden head of Nebuchadnezzar's image, and stands for Babylon.
The bear (v. 5) corresponds to the best and arms of silver, and stands for the MedoPersian empire.
Being "raised up on one side," means that one part of the empire was stronger than the other,
which was Persia. The "three ribs in the mouth of it" are the three provinces conquered by it not
long before, Susiana, Lydia and Asia Minor. The leopard (v. 6) is the Grecian empire,
corresponding to the "belly and thighs of brass."
Is there any differences in this scriptural point about the parable of the weeds and the wheat that
Jesus mentioned in Matt 13:24-30; 36-43? when you read Daniel 2 & 7 and compare it to the
parable of the weeds and the wheat - "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is
the world; and the good seed, these are the children of the kingdom (see Deuteronomy 32, as
compared to Romans (Romans 11:17 ) - isn't that the same as the replacement of the Canaanites,
as the Israelites replaced the Canaanites, fortifying the city on the northern "horn" (Horns of
Hittim - in Hebrew the name of the hill is "Karnei Khittin", or the horns of the wheat, since in
Hebrew these words mean Karnei = Horns, Hittin = wheat.)
(http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/Hittim.html#SouthHorn) ; and the darnel are the children of the
evil one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the
reapers are angels (Unetanneh Tokef)." - There's an assumption to all of this because we could
discuss which individuals or nations....as much as kingdoms will rise and fall.
Just a small note, Germany, and during WWII, was a small country but being small (as in the little
horn - which is very similar) grew and encompassed Europe. The great evil, was the fact of how
much of Europe that this small country encompassed -it was "only" by the grace God (and very
much so...) we where able to stop it, but remember how much damages were done before it was
stopped and compare that to what's on its way.
Personally if we look at the list of mortal sin, tell me how many that we've encountered so far:
he Church also tells us that the sins of anger, blasphemy, envy, hatred, malice, murder, neglect of
Sunday obligation, sins against faith (incredulity against God or heresy), sins against hope
(obstinate despair in the hope for salvation and/or presumption that oneself can live without God
or be saved by one’s own power) and sins against love (indifference towards charity, ingratitude,
and/or hatred of God) also constitute grave matter. This list of grave sins, is based on Jesus
Christ’s interpretation of the gravity of the Ten Commandments. Grave sins can be classed as sins
against God, neighbor and self, and can further be divided into carnal and spiritual sins (CCC
1853).
Four other sins are considered grave also. These sins not only offend God, but men as well. Thus
these four sins are called "the sins that cry to heaven for vengeance" and are likewise mortal sins.
These grave sins are:
The voluntary murder (Genesis 4:10)

The sin of impurity against nature –Sodomy and homosexual relations (Genesis 18:20)
Taking advantage of the poor (Exodus 2:23)
Defrauding the workingman of his wages (James 5:4)
Finally, the capital sins are also considered grave matter. These sins are vices and are defined as
contrary to the Christian virtues of holiness. They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony,
and sloth (acedia).
http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html
Jesus speaks of Himself, son of Man, the stone that was to destroy the Roman Kingdom. It would
appear that as of this writing the Kingdom of Rome had not yet been destroyed and the stone that
would destroy it is the Son of Man...also an image from Daniel.
Quote:
13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven,
and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and
languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Jesus refers to himself as Son of Man 80 times. It was caused Him to be condemned. In
Matthew....
Quote:
And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us
whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I
say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming
in the clouds of heaven.
65Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have
we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66What think ye? They answered and
said, He is guilty of death.
The High priest too knew what Daniel was talking about....
#9
Old Dec 15, '11, 11:39 pm
Regular Member

Posts: 644
Hi CopticChristian;
I think I was able to find some additional information that I read along time ago and I have picked
up some "newer" information, as well. Although I can't find anything out on this one subject I will
continue to look and gain some more insight to this:
First:
Isaac ben Judah Abrabanel:
Abrabanel primarily composed commentaries on the books of the Major and Minor Prophets. His
exegetical writings are set against a richly-conceived backdrop of the Jewish historical and
sociocultural experience, and it is often implied that his exegesis was sculpted with the purpose of
giving hope to the Jews of Spain that the arrival of the Messiah was imminent in their days. This
idea distinguished him from many other philosophers of the age, who did not rely as heavily on
Messianic concepts. Abarbanel's major peshat works are
Ma'yanei ha-Yeshu'ah (“The Wellsprings of Salvation" ‫)מעייני הישועה‬, which is a commentary on

the Book of Daniel;
Yeshu'ot Meshiho (“The Salvation of His Anointed" ‫)ישועות משיחו‬, an interpretation of rabbinic
literature about the Messiah; and
Mashmi'a Yeshu'ah (“Announcing Salvation" " ‫) "משמיע ישועה‬, a commentary on the messianic
prophecies in the prophetical books.
These three books are considered the separate parts of a larger work entitled “Migdal Yeshu'ot”
(“Tower of Salvation” ‫) מגדל ישועות‬.
**********
Also, another thought: Four kingdoms of Daniel: http://wiki.ask.com/Four_kingdoms_of_Daniel
Some secular historians and certain critics would say that the Book of Daniel has little to no
significance beyond its own contemporary historical setting. From some Christian and Jewish
religious points of view, the relevance of the Book of Daniel to our own and future time is upheld.
Idealists, and the advocates of Realized/Sapiential Eschatology, would say that the Book of Daniel
is primarily historical, but also significant as godly instruction.
A summary of leading Christian readings of Daniel 7 is in the table in the Daniel 7 Appendix.
Many scholars have held that Rome was the fourth beast; a few that the fourth beast was the
Ptolemies and Seleucids. From the time of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, the 'four
monarchies' model became widely used for universal history, in parallel with eschatology, among
Protestants. There were still some defenders of its use in universal history in the early 18th
century; but the periodization with a 'Middle Age' came in strongly from philology, with
Christopher Cellarius, based on the distinctive nature of medieval Latin.[1] The modern historicist
interpretations and eschatological views of the Book of Daniel with the Book of Revelation,
closely resemble, and are a continuation of, some earlier historical Protestant interpretations.
***********
and the last, St. Jerome, Commentary on Daniel (1958) Introduction. pp.1-13
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/je...l_01_intro.htm
The one who attempts to give to the Christian Church a dependable translation of Jerome's
commentary on the Hebrew |9 text of Daniel must have a thorough mastery of Hebrew and
Aramaic to understand the text from which Jerome worked, a comprehensive knowledge of the
Greek language (for Jerome also made a careful study of the Septuagint) and must be able to read
with unfaltering precision the Latin of that age, for it is in Latin that the work is written. That Dr.
Gleason L. Archer, Professor of Biblical Languages in Fuller Theological Seminary, possesses
such equipment will be acknowledged by all who give even the briefest consideration to this
commentary now offered to the public. I trust that from this superb piece of Biblical scholarship
many will be led to a new investigation of the whole, vast area, still not adequately explored, of
the eschatological beliefs of the first five centuries of the Christian Church.
(However, reading through another site: What's the truth about.....Aramaic? by Ari Z. Zivotofsky)
You'll find the multi levels of the language that was used in the book of Daniel -
#10
Old Dec 16, '11, 12:03 am
Regular Member

Posts: 644
Continue:
I think this thread might start to connect with "Jewish thought about the Messiah" - because of the
view from Jewish source as well as Christian sources. I ran into some on line forums (again) - and
also read some additional thoughts about Daniel. As interesting as these discussions were - some
believe that "this war" is heading us into some of Daniel's predictions (“atchalta d'geula” and
"ikvot d'mshicha", the beginning of the redemption and the footsteps of the Messiah). I think the
commentator to this verse was dead center. As others on the forum, and I've read some of the same
discussions also on this forum, had mentioned more or less on calculating dates based off of
Daniel's prophecy. We've read how others, in scripture, had been off on calculating the dates to the
redeemer of Israel in the Exodus (Moses) and with the Messiah (in Matthew). I still think/and in
awe of.. Anna, Simeon and the shepherd boy, who were the one's who had witness the birth and
presentation of the Messiah..
However, there were some posts that had indicted, and with the usage of Daniel's passages,that the
date to the coming of the Messiah have been sealed. "Many will run to and fro, and opinions shall
be increased." (Daniel 12:9).
Sorry for the long post - but I think this is a good topic.
Mary
#11
Old Dec 17, '11, 7:24 am
Banned
Posts: 10,218
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
Continue:
I think this thread might start to connect with "Jewish thought about the Messiah" - because of the
view from Jewish source as well as Christian sources. I ran into some on line forums (again) - and
also read some additional thoughts about Daniel. As interesting as these discussions were - some
believe that "this war" is heading us into some of Daniel's predictions (“atchalta d'geula” and
"ikvot d'mshicha", the beginning of the redemption and the footsteps of the Messiah). I think the
commentator to this verse was dead center. As others on the forum, and I've read some of the same
discussions also on this forum, had mentioned more or less on calculating dates based off of
Daniel's prophecy. We've read how others, in scripture, had been off on calculating the dates to the
redeemer of Israel in the Exodus (Moses) and with the Messiah (in Matthew). I still think/and in
awe of.. Anna, Simeon and the shepherd boy, who were the one's who had witness the birth and
presentation of the Messiah..
However, there were some posts that had indicted, and with the usage of Daniel's passages,that the
date to the coming of the Messiah have been sealed. "Many will run to and fro, and opinions shall
be increased." (Daniel 12:9).
Sorry for the long post - but I think this is a good topic.
Mary
I am not sure where you are going with all of this. Concerning Isaac ben Judah Abrabanel, I have
no knowledge of his interpretations however he is a Jew as I understand it and would be writing in
the 14th century.
The entire dialogue is tied to some sort of Eschatology of which there are commonly 4. Which
Eschatologic point of view are you heading for...?
#12
Old Dec 17, '11, 8:09 pm
andrewstx andrewstx is offline
Regular Member
Join Date: September 19, 2011

Posts: 4,345
Religion: Orthodox
Why the dearth of Catholics posting in this thread? It has been my experience that most of people
who obsess over Daniel and the Apocalypse (revelation) are members of Seventh Day
Adventistism.
These two books are Apocalytic literature, and are not meant as "fortune telling" prophecy.
#13
Old Dec 18, '11, 12:44 am
Regular Member

Posts: 644
Quote:
the 14th century.
Neither, although we know that (and from the information posted from a on line website) that the
first six chapters of Daniel were considered the most popular however, the book of Daniel
(nevertheless...) is divided Daniel into 2 halves, Chapters 1 to 6 and Chapters 7 to 12. The first
half is historical, the second half is apocalyptic or predictive because of the differences in the
writing from the first six chapters - as the author is unknown, it is (also) considered as
"apocalyptic literature" - which on a historical note, the Aramaic writing (and if you read the other
website - which there are differences: Imperial Aramaic, Middle and Late) - so really, the
information that being translated - is interesting history from back then.
Now, the breakdown of Daniel - from other sources listed, that being Chapters 7 - 12 and as we
consider them to be as much of importance as Jewish sources, when reading about the salvation
and the redemption, and the time of the Messiah. Our information really doesn't differ - or do you
think it does? One other thought into the mix - and one that has been discussed on other forum,
Christian and Jewish is the calculation of the dates: "But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words
of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge." Daniel
12:4.
There are predictions within each source: There are four major principles of interpretation that
were used in the LXX and Abarbanel's major peshat works...
So you ask? Which source? There isn't a real difference....what I am saying and even discussing
about the nations and kingdoms (with the first post - leading) how can one really understand -
until when the time arrives.....
#14
Old Dec 18, '11, 12:52 am
Regular Member

Posts: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewstx View Post
Why the dearth of Catholics posting in this thread? It has been my experience that most of people
who obsess over Daniel and the Apocalypse (revelation) are members of Seventh Day
Adventistism.
These two books are Apocalytic literature, and are not meant as "fortune telling" prophecy.
No one is obsessing over Daniel - and if you have the time, read, Did St Jerome reject the
Deuterocanoical books? Posted by Dr. Taylor Marshall.
#15
Old Dec 18, '11, 12:53 am
Regular Member

Posts: 644
Quote:
the 14th century.
I hope that you are keeping me on my toes - and heels...lol, if so - thank you
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Join Date: December 5, 2011

I used google but I can't seem to find the answer.

Specifically Daniel 2 and 7

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DANIEL PROPHECIES THE CATHOLICITY OF GOD'S FUTURE KINGDOM

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Not much different than what I understood: http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/daniel.htm

The voluntary murder (Genesis 4:10)

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Not much different than what I understood: http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/daniel.htm

The voluntary murder (Genesis 4:10)

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Isaac ben Judah Abrabanel:

Ma'yanei ha-Yeshu'ah (“The Wellsprings of Salvation" ‫)מעייני הישועה‬, which is a commentary on

Also, another thought: Four kingdoms of Daniel: http://wiki.ask.com/Four_kingdoms_of_Daniel

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