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Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Use of >10% Fe in Stainless Steel 316L

By maqadir Date 11-27-2012 15:25

HI All,
I am a fresh mechanical engineering graduate and have been struggling to find literature to support a claim.
Basically we are looking to use SS 316L which will be welded. It will contain more than 10% ferrite, which according to some authors :

“degrades the mechanical properties at low or high temperature service. At low temperatures excess ferrite (more than 10%) can promote crack paths when the temperature is below ductile-brittle transition temperature.
At high temperatures continuous brittle sigma Phase may form at the interface between austenite and the ferrite"
(ASM International 2006, Corrosion of weldments [#05182G]) 
According to this article, if the temperatures are above the ductile to brittle transition temperature, the SS 316L will be alright to use at ferrite levels in excess of 10%. They would also need to be below the high
temperatures mentioned above to make sure the mechanical properties remain undegraded.

Hence I wish to find out the DBTT (Ductile to brittle transition) and use it as elementary proof that we will be operating at temperatures above that level, and below the high temperatures listed and will need literature
to support my claim....but to support my claim i need to know the DBTT transition temperature and cant find that anywhere..
Also, if there is no reason the ferrite levels should not be used, i would like another source of literature perhaps that would clearly say that fe levels in excess of 10% should never be used?

Any help or light shed in this matter would be greatly appreciated .

Many Thanks

By ravi theCobra Date 11-28-2012 19:16

In the early 1970's I worked in the nuclear industry and nuclear specs routinely asked for 316 L with 5 to 15 % minimum ferrite.  While the Ni  to Cr  ratio is high you can easily end up with 10 % ferrite. What is your
application ?

By maqadir Date 11-29-2012 11:31

Hi,

Thank you for your reply. My manager as well form experience speaks that it should be alright, but it needs to be documented against a standard, hence the reason I am asking for any articles/ published material to
back up the claim of using more than 10% Fe

The application is an oil refinery pipeline carrying hydrocarbons and other corrosive materials found in crude.

By ssbn727 Date 11-29-2012 19:35 Edited 11-29-2012 20:30

"Basically we are looking to use SS 316L which will be welded. It will contain more than 10% ferrite, which according to some authors :

“degrades the mechanical properties at low or high temperature service. At low temperatures excess ferrite (more than 10%) can promote crack paths when the temperature is below ductile-brittle transition temperature. At high
temperatures continuous brittle sigma Phase may form at the interface between austenite and the ferrite"

According to this article, if the temperatures are above the ductile to brittle transition temperature, the SS 316L will be alright to use at ferrite levels in excess of 10%. They would also need to be below the high temperatures mentioned above
to make sure the mechanical properties remain undegraded.

Hence I wish to find out the DBTT (Ductile to brittle transition) and use it as elementary proof that we will be operating at temperatures above that level, and below the high temperatures listed and will need literature to support my
claim....but to support my claim i need to know the DBTT transition temperature and cant find that anywhere..

Also, if there is no reason the ferrite levels should not be used, i would like another source of literature perhaps that would clearly say that fe levels in excess of 10% should never be used?"
http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/WebCatalogs/EN/WELDABILITY.PDF

http://www.csidesigns.com/tech/fabtech.pdf

http://www.ijest.info/docs/IJEST12-04-05-183.pdf

http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2005/Stainless_steels/stainless.html

There's more but, this is all I'm gonna give you to look @ today! So consider yourself "lucky"

I'm not going to find the answer to your query because I really don't know what your specific query is so, you'll have to find it yourself and you will if you look hard enough.

Oh, I almost forgot about this one:

http://www.ssina.com/overview/history.html
Respectfully,
Henry

By maqadir Date 11-30-2012 09:05

Dear Henry

Thankyou appreciate the work :D

If you ever feel like you want to help, I am simply looking for an article suggetsing that it is alright to use 316L with the weld pool containing >10% Fe

Thanks very much again

getting on the reading material

By maqadir Date 11-30-2012 11:31

Dear Henry

Looked hard and steady at every link mentioned...got a fiew useful bits..but nothing concrete

I just need to find out what the DBTT is for 316L :S

Without a charpy tests and data sheet for the stainless steel in question, i am struggling

By TimGary Date 11-30-2012 12:53

AWS D10.4-86R : Recommended Practices for Welding Austenitic Chromium-Nickel Stainless Steel Piping and tubing, has a lot of good information about the inportance of and how to control ferrite levels in weld metal
for specific end use purposes. It doesn't specifically state the DBTT for 316L :S as it is geared more toward the welding of such materials. It does however provide information needed to select the right filler metal and
process needed to tailor fit ferrite levels in welds.

The above also mentions, as another possible resource, "It is difficult to accurately determine how much Ferrite is present in stainless steel weld metal. The Advisory Subcommittee on Welding Stainless Steels and the
High Alloys Committee of the Welding Research Council have attempted to resolve this problem by establishing an arbitrary, standardized value known as "ferrite number" (FN) to designate the ferrite content of
austenitic stainless steel weld metal."

The point is that no matter what base metal and it's ferrite content that you choose to be applicable for the service, you're going to have to carefully control the ferrite content, among other things, during the welding
process.

Tim Gary

By ssbn727 Date 12-01-2012 06:39

Well then, struggle with these friend because I can only give you what is available... I cannot read your mind in knowing exactly what you're looking for...
So here are some more papers tailored more to your original set of queries - I hope!
http://www.mtrl.ubc.ca/faculty_&_staff/sinclair_perso/papers/bromleythesis.pdf

http://www.nickelinstitute.org/~/Media/Files/TechnicalLiterature/DesignGuidelinesfortheSelectionandUseofStainlessSteels_9014_.pdf

http://www.nickelinstitute.org/~/Media/Files/TechnicalLiterature/WeldingofStainlesssSteelandotherJoiningMethods_9002_.pdf

http://www.naka.jaea.go.jp/ITER/FDR/PDD/PDD_2_13_Materials.pdf

Refer to page 11;

http://www.cedengineering.com/upload/Materials.pdf

Have you seen this yet?

http://www.crompion.com/files/Cromgard_C20-3.pdf

http://www.crompion.com/files/C231.pdf

h // / l
 http://esmat.esa.int/SME2_-_materails.ppt

http://researchspace.csir.co.za/dspace/bitstream/10204/540/1/vanzwieten_1993_1.pdf

http://www.nipera.org/~/Media/Files/TechnicalLiterature/WeldingStainlessand9_NickelSteelCryogenicVessels_14037_.pdf

http://www.imoa.info/_files/stainless_steel/Austenitics.pdf

http://upetd.up.ac.za/thesis/available/etd-10132008-165635/unrestricted/07chapter7.pdf

http://upetd.up.ac.za/thesis/available/etd-10132008-165635/unrestricted/04chapter4.pdf
http://upetd.up.ac.za/thesis/available/etd-10132008-165635/unrestricted/03chapter3.pdf

http://www.keytometals.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=kt

http://www.ssina.com/download_a_file/weldingbook.pdfs&NM=156

https://www.asminternational.org/content/ASM/StoreFiles/06480G_Sample.pdf

http://www.eurometaux.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx?Command=Core_Download&EntryId=99&PortalId=0&TabId=57

http://www.gkn.com/hoeganaes/media/Tech%20Library/192.%20Stainless%20Steel%20AISI%20Grades%20for%20PM%20

http://www.infosteel.be/newsLeden/EN10088-4_EN.pdfApplications.pdf

http://www.nacecalgary.ca/pdfs/SteelPlatesForOilsands.pdf

http://www.twi.co.uk/technical-knowledge/published-papers/background-to-requirements-for-the-prevention-of-brittle-fracture-in-the-european-standards-for-unfired-pressure-vessels-pren-13/

I think I'll stop here even though there is more... I'm tired and besides, you're not paying me!!! So, consider this in good faith!

Respectfully,
Henry

By ssbn727 Date 12-04-2012 22:40

This is what you have more or less been looking for;

http://www.thepetrostreet.com/database/API582_The_Welding_Solution.pdf

http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=41

http://www.lincolnelectric.hu/pdfek/a6/ferrit_tartalom_a_hegesztesi_varratban.pdf

http://www.twi.co.uk/news-events/publications/connect/archive/2006/july-august/ratification-for-welds-working-in-cryogenic-conditions/

http://www.nickelinstitute.org/~/Media/Files/TechnicalLiterature/AusteniticChromium_NickelStainlessSteelsatSubzeroTemperatures_MechanicalandPhysicalProperties_313_.pdf#page=

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/5083581-vPnNtD/5083581.pdf

http://www.agsrhichome.bnl.gov/AP/rhic_notes/AD-RHIC-RD-1-128/AD-RHIC-RD-40.pdf

Here's a gift for you;

http://www.kskct.cz/images/materialy/en/avesta.pdf

Here's some fun FAQ's for your review;

http://www.atimetals.com/businesses/business-units/ludlum/Resources/TechnicalAssistance/Pages/FAQ%27s.aspx

Respectfully,
Henry

By electrode Date 11-30-2012 14:27 Edited 11-30-2012 18:22

Sir,

there is a row of truly exceptional individuals around here as I could learn. Amongst them primarily, for me, a gentleman (js55), outstanding in responding this "type" of questions. Obviously he seems extremely busy,
otherwise, I guess, you would have your most adequate answer already.

Way beyond of being an expert in this field I nonetheless do have some questions as it seems to me here's a great risk buried in your OP for not seeing the wood for the trees.

Hence, just out of curiosity.

As you say "The application is an oil refinery pipeline carrying hydrocarbons and other corrosive materials found in crude.".

1. Is this a low temperature application?

You know. Actually, AISI 316L, at least in my understanding, yet is an austenitic parent material, isn't it? And, if memory serves me well, austenitic stainless steels are not explicitly proving distinctive DBTT's. This again
could make it pretty complicated to point you towards your "...DBTT transition temperature ". And further. That could be a reason that you cannot "...find that anywhere."

In connection to this:

2. Who says that your particular application is really prone to the worst case, i.e. "cracking", and even if it cracks, the crack then is propagating through the material?

You know, I was allowed to learn that, in engineering, a lot of things always remain questionable. On the contrary, just a very few exceptions exist; i.e. some fundamental physical laws. However, it is a great risk to
believe everything that was written down by someone somewhere along the way.

3. Did you perform some research using the key-words "cryogenic + welding"?

You know, I guess this could provide you, additionally to what's been posted already by the other forum fellow members, with some valuable information.

In any respect I will attach a PDF for your attention, dealing with some aspects of your OP.

Also, I would like to recommend to get hold of the publication:

Holloway, G., Zhang, Z. and Marshall, A. (2004), "Stainless Steel Arc Welding Consumables for Cryogenic Applications", Stainless Steel World (2004), KCI Publishing BV.

Unfortunately I see myself unable to attach this document herein, due to copyright reasons. However, I consider this paper capable of clarifying a lot of details buried in your question(s).

EDIT: Corrected a typo.

Attachment: Friedrich_et_al.pdf (382k)

By electrode Date 11-30-2012 17:58

Sir,

here you go: http://www.china-weldnet.com/English/information/II-1555-05.htm for the 'Holloway and co-workers' publication.

I hope this helps.

By electrode Date 11-30-2012 18:18

Sir,

see also attachment additionally containing a row of valuable references.

Attachment: KANE_et_al.pdf (0B)

By electrode Date 11-30-2012 18:49

Sir,

as already supposed in a previous response. See http://www.hazmetal.com/f/kutu/1236776379.pdf (page 15 - figure 13).

Obviously memory served me well as I was saying "...austenitic stainless steels are not explicitly proving distinctive DBTT's".

So again. It is still hard for me to understand that "At low temperatures excess ferrite (more than 10%) can promote crack paths when the temperature is below ductile-brittle transition".

But how does 'OBEWAN' normally sign his posts? "Love of Learning is the Key to Knowledge", and always I do feel privileged being allowed to learn.

By js55 Date 12-03-2012 15:35

Electrode,
When ferrite is present the microstructure of stainless steel is essentially duplex. It is the austenitic portion that softens the ductile to brittle curve while the ferritic portion will demonstrate a DBTT. Thus for cryo
applications fillers with chemistries to promote ferrite are not recommended.

By electrode Date 12-03-2012 18:07 Edited 12-03-2012 18:42

js55,

thank you.
 "It is the austenitic portion that softens the ductile to brittle curve while the ferritic portion will demonstrate a DBTT."

That was also my understanding.

But isn't AISI 316L - though metastable - nonetheless austenitic in its final microstructure (containing residual delta-ferrite of course)?

What is hard for me to grasp is: "E.g. http://www.hazmetal.com/f/kutu/1236776379.pdf (page 15 - figure 13) shows no distinct Ductile to Brittle Transition Temperature for AISI 316L".

What is the "regular" residual delta-ferrite content of an AISI 316L Grade both solution annealed (as delivered) or welded (e.g. autogenously)?

If e.g. the parent material has a "normal" residual ferrite content of 10(?) % but shows no distinct DBTT; does a DBTT increase arise from the filler material or dilution respectively?

Or in short. Is e.g. 10(?) % residual ferrite capable of dramatically changing the DBTT behaviour of an AISI 316L?

I must confess that I'm still having problems in understanding this but like I said - I'm just an interested layman rather in this field.

EDIT: Once more the fingers were quicker than the brain. Hence, corrected a typo.

By js55 Date 12-03-2012 20:30

electrode,
Take a look at the chemistries of base metals and weld metals. You will find they are different. This is because they are intended to be processed different. The high austentie is to inhibit problems in hot forming and
therefore base metals will be fully austenitic. You will notice that Cr is higher in the weld metal. Cr is a ferrite stabilizer and will therefore help to produce delta ferrite to inhibit microfissuring under weldment cooling
regimes. This can manifest in HAZ's as well.

By electrode Date 12-03-2012 20:44

js55,
makes sense to me.

Thank you.

By electrode Date 12-04-2012 10:33

js55,

I really couldn't sleep over this topic.

This might be a quite valuable source of information*: http://www.nickelinstitute.org/~/Media/Files/TechnicalLiterature/MaterialsforCryogenicService_EngineeringPropertiesofAusteniticStainlessSteel_4368_.pdf

Particularly tables 2c (see also footnote 8); 27; 28; 29 and 30 seem interesting when it comes to notch toughness at low temperatures.

Hence, I unfortunately have to stick to my doubts concerning the OP's statement. That is, impact toughness-, or even cracking issues caused by ductile to brittle failure, after welding AISI 316L for producing an "oil
refinery pipeline carrying hydrocarbons and other corrosive materials found in crude".

But perhaps I may be missing something fundamental here.

*) I must admit. This "nickel institute" publishes some extraordinary good technical stuff!

Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Use of >10% Fe in Stainless Steel 316L

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