PROCEEDINGS BEFORE THE DIVISION I

COMMITTEE ON INFRACTIONS OF THE

NATIONAL COLLEGIATE ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION

In Re: UNIVERSITY OF) Case No. 00427

LOUISVILLE )

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BE IT REMEMBERED, that on the 20th day of
April, 2017, the above-entitled matter comes on for
hearing before the Division I Committee on
Infractions of The National Collegiate Athletic
Association, held at the Westin Hotel, Cincinnati,
Ohio, beginning at 8:30 o'clock a.m., with Chief
Hearing Officer Carol Cartwright presiding.
The other members of the Committee present
are: Messrs. Joseph Novak, Stephen Madva, Larry
Parkinson, Tom Hill, Greg Christopher and William
Bock, III.
Also present are Mr. Joel McGormley,
Managing Director for the Committees on Infractions,
Associate Directors Matt Mikrut, Jim Elworth, and
Heather McVeigh; Ms. Cheryl DeWees and Ms. Evelyn
Gross, Assistant Coordinators for the Committees on
Infractions.
Present is Ms. Naima Stevenson from the

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NCAA Office of Legal Affairs.
Mr. Josh Smith from the NCAA IT Staff, and
Mr. Tony Grau from Markey's Audio Visual are also
present.
APPEARANCES
Present on behalf of the NCAA enforcement
staff are Mmes. Brynna Barnhart, Paige Newman,
Stephanie Hannah, Jessica Doriot; and Messrs. Jon
Duncan, Derrick Crawford, Ed Lupomech, Chris Strobel,
Nate Leffler, Mark Strothkamp, Jerry McCool and Clint
Hangebrauck.
Appearing on behalf of the University of
Louisville are Messrs. Greg Postel, Tom Jurich, John
Carns, Matt Banker, Kenny Klein, Chuck Smrt; and
Mmse. Elaine Wise and Leslie Strohm.
Coach Rick Pitino, Head Men's Basketball
Coach, appears in person and with his counsel of
record, Mr. Scott Tompsett.
Mr. Brandon Williams, former men's
basketball program assistant, appears with his
attorney of record, Mr. Peter Ginsberg.
Mr. Brad Hostetter, Executive Associate
Commissioner of the Atlantic Coast Conference, was
also present.
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1 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Good
2 morning. This is Case No. 00527, University of
3 Louisville. Today is Thursday, April 20, 2017.
4 My name is Carol Cartwright. I am former
5 President of Bowling Green State University and
6 President Emerita of Kent State University, and
7 I am the Chief Hearing Officer of this case.
8 There are six other Panelists with me
9 today. They are, starting to my far right, Mr.
10 William Bock, III, partner with Kroger, Gardis &
11 Regis, LLP, Indianapolis, Indiana, and a public
12 member of the Committee. Mr. Thomas Hill,
13 Senior Policy Advisor to the President, Iowa
14 State University. And Mr. Larry Parkinson,
15 Director of the Office of Enforcement for the
16 Federal Energy Regulatory Commission,
17 Washington, D.C., and a public member of the
18 Committee.
19 And from my far left, Mr. Stephen
20 Madva, retired attorney, Longboat Key, Florida,
21 and a public member of the Committee. Mr. Joe
22 Novak, former head football coach, Northern
23 Illinois University, and Mr. Greg Christopher,
24 Director of Athletics, Xaviar University.
25 Seated at the table to my right from
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1 the Office of the Committees on Infractions are
2 Mr. Joel McGormley, Managing Director; Mr. Jim
3 Elworth, Associate Director; and Mr. Matt
4 Mikrut, Associate Director.
5 At the table to my left is Ms. Naima
6 Stevenson, General Counsel from the NCAA's
7 Office of Legal Affairs.
8 Ms. Cheryl DeWees and Ms. Evelyn
9 Gross, the Committee's Assistant Coordinators,
10 are seated together at the table at the back of
11 the room. Ms. DeWees and Ms. Gross are
12 available to assist with any needs during the
13 hearing.
14 Seated at the table beside Ms. DeWees
15 and Ms. Gross is Ms. Heather McVeigh, Associate
16 Director with the Office of the Committees on
17 Infractions.
18 Also seated at the back of the room is
19 Mr. Josh Smith from the NCAA IT staff and Mr.
20 Tony Grau from Markey's Audio Visual.
21 I would also like to introduce Mr.
22 John Bowen, of Heritage Reporting, a Certified
23 Court Reporter from Kansas City. Mr. Bowen is
24 here to take the record in this case. Please
25 note that no one else is permitted to record
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1 today's proceedings.
2 Before we turn to introductions, I
3 will describe how the microphones work. On each
4 microphone is a black button. You activate your
5 microphone by pushing that button. You know
6 your microphone is activated because the red
7 collar at the top will be illuminated. When you
8 push the button and activate your microphone,
9 you also cut off all other microphones except
10 mine. So please do not activate your microphone
11 while someone else is speaking, but be sure to
12 activate it when you wish to speak.
13 You will not need to press the button
14 to turn off your microphone, as that
15 automatically happens when the next speaker
16 pushes his or her button. If you push the
17 microphone button after you finish speaking, you
18 may cut off the next speaker, so please be
19 mindful of that
20 If the person sitting next to you
21 forgets to activate his or her microphone,
22 please assist them by pushing the button.
23 Finally, before we proceed with
24 introductions, please ensure that your cell
25 phones are turned off or on silent mode.
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1 We will now turn to the introduction
2 of all parties, starting with the institution.
3 President Postel, would you please introduce
4 yourself and the other representatives from the
5 University?
6 PRESIDENT POSTEL: Good morning.
7 Thank you. My name is Gregory Postel. I am the
8 Interim President of the University of
9 Louisville, and I will begin with introductions
10 to my right. We have Elaine Wise, who is our
11 Faculty Athletics Representative. Next to her
12 is Chuck Smrt from The Compliance Group. Next
13 to him is Tom Jurich, who is our Athletics
14 Director.
15 We have Leslie Strohm, Chief
16 University counsel of the University of
17 Louisville, followed by Scott Tompsett, who is
18 counsel for Coach Pitino. We then have Rick
19 Pitino, who is the head men's basketball coach
20 at the University of Louisville. Next to him,
21 John Carns, Senior Associate Athletic Director
22 for Compliance.
23 Then we have Matt Banker, who is the
24 Associate Athletic Director. Next is Kenny
25 Klein, Senior Associate Athletic Director for
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1 Sports Information, and Brad Hostetter,
2 Associate Commissioner for the Atlantic Coast
3 Conference.
4 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you
5 very much. Mr. Williams, please introduce
6 yourself and your counsel.
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Brandon Williams. My
8 counsel is Peter Ginsberg.
9 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
10 And I will note that Mr. Brad Hostetter, the
11 President introduced him, is Chief of Internal
12 Affairs for the Atlantic Coast Conference, and
13 he is here today representing the Conference.
14 Thank you for your presence at the hearing.
15 You'll have an opportunity to make an opening
16 and closing statement if you wish to do so.
17 And finally, I turn to Mr. Jon Duncan.
18 Please introduce yourself and the
19 representatives from the NCAA enforcement staff.
20 MR. DUNCAN: Good morning. I am Jon
21 Duncan, Vice President for Enforcement at the
22 NCAA. To my left is Stephanie Hannah, Director.
23 To her left, Nate Leffler and Mark Strothkamp,
24 both Associate Directors of Enforcement; Jessica
25 Doriot, Assistant Coordinator; Derrick Crawford,
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1 Managing Director for Investigations and
2 Processing. To his left, Chris Strobel, Brynna
3 Barnhart, Jeremy McCool and Clint Hangebrauck,
4 all Directors of Enforcement; and Ed Lupomech,
5 Assistant Director.
6 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
7 This is an administrative process, and we
8 proceed rather informally. If you wish to take
9 off your jacket, please feel free to do so. You
10 are welcome to stand up, move around and avail
11 yourself of the refreshments in the room.
12 We usually spend about an hour or an
13 hour and a half discussing the case and then
14 take a break. But if at any time you need to
15 step out of the room, please feel free to do so.
16 The Panel has noted that Mr. Pitino
17 and Mr. Williams are not at risk in all of the
18 allegations. However, as all allegations are
19 related to the men's basketball program at the
20 institution, all parties should remain in the
21 room for the discussion of all allegations
22 unless any party objects.
23 Are there any objections to all
24 parties being present throughout the hearing
25 today? Seeing none, we will move on. Thank
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1 you.
2 You were previously advised in the
3 Notice of Allegations, as well as in a
4 supplemental letter from the Hearing Panel, that
5 the Panel does not receive all of the
6 information and material that the enforcement
7 staff has received, may have developed or placed
8 in the secure website.
9 You were provided with an initial
10 record on April 4th, 2017, and an amended record
11 this morning. If you did not receive a copy of
12 that record this morning and don't have it,
13 please see Ms. DeWees or Ms. Gross. What the
14 Panel has seen is the list of items included on
15 that amended list.
16 The record consists of the procedural
17 documents as well as Factual Information used by
18 the enforcement staff that either supports or
19 refutes allegations. The final record will also
20 contain the transcript and, if necessary, other
21 items identified today.
22 What the Panel knows about this case
23 is contained in this record. If there are any
24 materials that are not a part of the record, and
25 that you want the Panel to consider, you must
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1 ask permission to have that information
2 introduced during this hearing.
3 As a reminder, parties are not
4 permitted to record these proceedings. The
5 transcript is the official record of what will
6 be said today. The Panel's factual findings and
7 conclusions of whether violations occurred, if
8 any, in this case will be based on the written
9 record and this hearing, as memorialized by the
10 transcript.
11 Based on information that may be
12 discussed in today's hearing, or that may have
13 been raised in the information previously
14 submitted, the Panel has the authority on its
15 own initiative to bring additional allegations
16 to conform with the information presented to the
17 Panel.
18 Additional allegations may relate to
19 any bylaw violation, including unethical
20 conduct, failure to monitor or lack of
21 institutional control. If the Panel should
22 decide that additional allegations may be
23 appropriate, it will inform all parties and
24 provide them with an opportunity to respond.
25 All four allegations are charged in
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1 the Notice of Allegations as Level I violations
2 of NCAA legislation. The Panel will make the
3 final decision regarding violation levels after
4 considering the parties' presentations and
5 information contained in the record.
6 Everyone here today also should know
7 that any issues related to the processing of
8 this case must be raised during the course of
9 the hearing. Failure to raise such claims
10 during the hearing constitutes a waiver of any
11 such claim. Among other things, such waiver
12 precludes raising these issues on appeal.
13 The Panel was made aware of a
14 potential issue Mr. Pitino's counsel had with
15 the enforcement staff regarding attorney ethical
16 considerations. As I explained to the parties
17 in my letter of March 24th, 2017, that is a
18 matter outside this process and will not be
19 considered by this Panel.
20 We will take the allegations in the
21 order in which they appear in the Notice of
22 Allegations.
23 Before we begin with opening
24 statements, I have three preliminary questions.
25 Ms. Hannah, have all of those who are at risk at
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1 this hearing been informed of the date, time and
2 place of the hearing?
3 MS. HANNAH: Yes, they have.
4 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: We will
5 note that Andre McGee is not present, and I
6 think it would be helpful if you informed us
7 about your efforts to get him to participate.
8 MR. LEFFLER: Dr. Cartwright, this is
9 Nate Leffler. In every step of the process,
10 even in this phase, whether it be the Notice of
11 Allegations, or the issuance of the Notice of
12 Allegations, or the attempts for him to provide
13 a response to the enforcement staff in relation
14 to the Notice of Allegations, Mr. McGee, through
15 his counsel, has decided or did decide not to
16 participate in the processing of this matter.
17 In fact, his counsel submitted a
18 letter in response to the Notice of Allegations
19 stating that Mc. McGee would not be providing a
20 written response to the Notice of Allegations
21 due to a pending criminal investigation that was
22 related to this matter.
23 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
24 I will also note that the Office of the
25 Committees on Infractions informed Mr. McGee of
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1 the hearing in letters dated February 3rd, 2017,
2 and March 27th, 2017.
3 Ms. Hannah, are there any eligibility
4 issues that have had to be resolved?
5 MS. HANNAH: No, no eligibility
6 issues.
7 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: And are
8 there any instances in this case in which
9 student-athletes competed while ineligible that
10 might result in the vacation of contests by the
11 Panel?
12 MS. HANNAH: Yes, there are. And,
13 you know, if the Committee makes findings in
14 Allegation No. 1, there are several student-
15 athletes who are involved in receiving
16 inducements or extra benefits, and a list of
17 those student-athletes and their participation
18 can be found in the institution's response on
19 Pages 312 and 313.
20 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
21 Now we turn to brief general opening statements
22 from the University, the enforcement staff and
23 the Conference, should the Conference wish to
24 make an opening statement. We will then turn to
25 Allegation No. 1.
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1 Let me emphasize that these statements
2 should be brief general overviews of the case
3 and not recitations of information relevant to
4 particular allegations.
5 President Postel, are you ready for
6 the institution's opening statement?
7 PRESIDENT POSTEL: I am.
8 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
9 PRESIDENT POSTEL: Good morning. I
10 would like to start by thanking all of you for
11 the opportunity to be present today to
12 participate in this hearing, thanking you for
13 taking your valuable time to address the serious
14 issue that we discuss today, and thanking you
15 for your service to the NCAA in general.
16 The goals of the University of
17 Louisville today are to provide information
18 helpful to you in your deliberations and to take
19 the next steps required for us to eventually put
20 this matter behind us.
21 While I am new to my role as Interim
22 President, only having served since January of
23 2017, I am not new to the University of
24 Louisville. I have been a faculty member for 23
25 years and have retained my roles as Professor of
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1 Radiology and Interim Executive Vice President
2 for Health Affairs.
3 My two decades of experience at the
4 University of Louisville have given me a chance
5 to truly understand the institution and the
6 character of its students, faculty and staff.
7 U of L serves many critical community
8 missions. We provide education for more than
9 23,000 students at the undergraduate and
10 graduate levels. We provide health care to
11 individuals who need it the most, either due to
12 serious illness or injury or based on financial
13 need. And we participate in more than 800
14 community service projects which allow us to
15 touch almost every facet of the community in
16 which we live.
17 In September of 2015, when information
18 regarding potential improprieties at Minardi
19 Hall began to surface publicly, I remember the
20 reaction of our 2500 faculty and almost 10,000
21 full-time and part-time staff members.
22 Words to describe their reactions
23 include disgust, horror and embarrassment.
24 There could be no possible excuse.
25 The focus was not on what potential
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1 penalties might apply but rather how would this
2 impact the reputation of the institution that we
3 love and what would we do to regain our public
4 image.
5 It was sobering to recognize that the
6 actions of one person could impact the image of
7 thousands.
8 Leaders step up, though, in the time
9 of crisis. Tom Jurich, our Athletics Director,
10 and Rick Pitino, our head men's basketball
11 coach, demonstrated such leadership and demanded
12 honest answers regardless of where they led.
13 Due to the serious nature of the
14 allegations, the University hired Chuck Smrt,
15 who is a man we see as having a great deal of
16 integrity and who is well versed in NCAA
17 matters.
18 Tom Jurich spoke publicly about the
19 need for truthful disclosure and made it clear
20 that if violations were discovered, that we
21 would not wait for the NCAA but rather would
22 take action on our own.
23 In February of 2016, when it became
24 apparent that violations had, in fact, occurred,
25 Tom Jurich and Coach Pitino agreed that punitive
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1 actions were necessary and they took the
2 dramatic and public step of withdrawing from
3 postseason play. This was designed to send a
4 very clear message that what happened was wrong,
5 that we would not tolerate such behavior and
6 that it did not represent the culture of the
7 University.
8 Coach Pitino is an experienced mentor
9 of college students. He is well known to be a
10 tough disciplinarian with no tolerance for
11 violations of rules. In addition to teaching
12 the skills of the sport, Coach Pitino and his
13 team make it clear that academic performance is
14 a priority.
15 For the past five years U of L has had
16 an academic progress rate of 1,000 meaning that
17 all team members remained in school and remained
18 eligible academically. The men's basketball
19 team has had a cumulative grade-point average of
20 3.0 or greater for the past 17 consecutive
21 semesters. This is not seen in an institution
22 which does not monitor or foster a culture of
23 all-around excellence.
24 While my role as interim, I have been
25 advised that I will likely remain in this role
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1 until the fall of 2018. During this period, I
2 intend to stay closely engaged with our
3 Athletics Department as I do with all of our
4 institutional units.
5 Leslie Strohm, our Chief General
6 Counsel, and I will be certain to assure that
7 all punitive and corrective actions will
8 continue to be implemented.
9 In closing, allow me to reiterate that
10 I am not here today to make excuses for what
11 took place. There is no excuse. Rather, I am
12 here to attest to U of L's full cooperation in
13 the matter, to advocate for complete
14 transparency, and to encourage all of you to
15 understand that the story before us today is not
16 the story of U of L but the story of an
17 individual's behavior. Your time and attention
18 to our concerns is truly appreciated.
19 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you,
20 President Postel.
21 Mr. Pitino, do you or your counsel
22 wish to make an opening statement?
23 MR. PITINO: I would. Thank you.
24 First, I would like to start before I give my
25 opening statement, and I have said this publicly
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1 when the findings came out, that often the NCAA
2 enforcement staff gets the wrong type of
3 criticism. I just would like to say, and I
4 don't say it in any patronizing way, they
5 treated me with great professionalism, they are
6 very diligent about their job, and it's much
7 appreciated for the way I was treated.
8 I do disagree with their findings in
9 terms of monitoring, but that we will deal with
10 later on.
11 I would like to add a little levity to
12 my opening statement. This room is far bigger.
13 I had eye surgery to help me read stat sheets
14 and help me read books, I am an avid reader, but
15 I can't see far now. So I have images over
16 here.
17 My daughter and my niece lost a dad.
18 We had a discussion a little short while ago,
19 Uncle Rick, tell us something that we may not
20 know about you. And I said probably the way I
21 grew up is so far different than you. I grew
22 up, as you can tell from my accent, in New York
23 City, in Manhattan.
24 And I said I lived in a fancy
25 brownstone. They said, "Did you really, dad?"
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1 I said yes. It was probably worth about $22,000
2 and our family lived on the bottom, my
3 grandparents in the middle, my aunt and uncle up
4 top.
5 She said three different families? I
6 said yes. And my grandfather owned a horse.
7 And she said really? Going back you still owned
8 a horse? I said yes. And that horse was his
9 job of carrying his fruit wagon to sell fruit
10 throughout Manhattan and the lower East side.
11 They said, well, tell me something
12 else. I said, well, I had -- from playing stoop
13 ball, I had last rights in the Catholic religion
14 from going out in the street to catch a ball and
15 getting hit by a taxi.
16 And then I took them through some
17 things that were totally different than their
18 life. Now, my life has been totally different.
19 We look at some times just basketball records
20 and NCAA's and so on, but my life has been a
21 little different.
22 Providence College was the most
23 enjoyable experience I have had as a head coach,
24 it was sort of a Cinderella story. The last two
25 out of three games of the season we lost to
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1 Georgetown by over 30-plus points. And on the
2 bus ride home, we couldn't wait because for
3 seven straight years since the inception of the
4 Big East, Providence College was in dead last
5 place and now for the first time in 50 some odd
6 years, we would make the NCAA Tournament.
7 We had an interesting team led by
8 Billy Donovan. And when we crossed the Rhode
9 Island line, Connecticut to Rhode Island, back
10 then there were no cell phones. A state trooper
11 pulled us over and I thought it was Dave Gavitt
12 telling us for the first time as he was a great
13 Providence fan, an ex coach, who we were playing
14 for the 6:00 o'clock announcement.
15 And it wasn't, and I could tell by his
16 face something was wrong. At the time I had
17 four children, I had three boys and an infant
18 son. My wife for six-and-a-half months was
19 traveling back and forth from Providence to
20 Boston Children's Hospital because our son was
21 born with a birth defect in his heart and a
22 cleft palate that needed to be fixed.
23 An hour and a half every day, at
24 least, she would leave at 6:00, spend there
25 until 6:00 at night and then come home. And the
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1 doctors says she has to get away, and she came
2 to the Big East Tournament.
3 When he pulled us over, we rushed to
4 the hospital because he knew something was wrong
5 but he wouldn't tell me. And there as we
6 entered the hospital, we went into the Emergency
7 Room and we didn't know if it was one of our
8 older children breaking their arm, we had no
9 idea. As we entered, we saw a little bed in the
10 Emergency Room with our son Daniel without life.
11 And that moment stood out for me
12 through the rest of my life because I didn't
13 know what to do as my wife grabbed Daniel and
14 hugged the baby, and we all cried for about a
15 good straight hour.
16 And then the thing that will always
17 stick out is the 20 priests on the altar who
18 talked about celebration, because I was telling
19 them I grew up so different, they said what's
20 the one thing in your life you wish you didn't
21 go through?
22 I said, well, that Italian family in
23 that brownstone, the thing I hated most about
24 life was the Italian wakes. We would go to the
25 Italian wake and it was three days. From 2:00
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1 to 5:00 you sat there and everybody came up to
2 the coffin, looked like they were going to jump
3 into the coffin, wailing and crying.
4 Then at night you go from 7:00 to
5 9:00, say a prayer and then everybody would cry
6 some more for three straight days and then go to
7 the cemetery. And I experienced it four times,
8 I told my daughter and niece.
9 And they said back to me, well, what
10 happened? I said I never want to go to an
11 Italian wake ever again. And then my wife of 40
12 some odd years, I was dating her in high school
13 and went to college, and I came home one time,
14 she said you have to take me to the BRONX for my
15 uncle's wake. I said, honey, I will do anything
16 for you but I don't want to go to any more
17 Italian wakes. Her name was Joan Minardi. And
18 she said it's not Italian, my mom is Irish, one
19 of 13 children, my uncle is a priest, he'll be
20 there.
21 I said what's the differenCE? I just
22 can't take these wakes any more. She said it
23 will be a lot different than you are used to.
24 So, we went up to the Bronx and we
25 went to this wake for her Uncle Frank who worked
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1 in the transit system. And as I walked in,
2 everybody was laughing, talking. And we went
3 around to the line, there was nobody throwing
4 themselves in the coffin and wailing, everybody
5 was just laughing and talking about Frank and
6 celebrating his life. That word celebrated
7 again.
8 Then when it was all said and done and
9 the Uncle Martin, who was a priest said a
10 prayer, we went to a tavern and they drank beer
11 and told stories again. I realized at that
12 point that I wanted to be Irish and not Italian.
13 And as my life went along and we lost
14 Daniel, I just thought about celebrating his
15 life and what I could do. Well, today I am
16 very, very proud because I left Rhode Island,
17 went to New York Nicks as their head coach, and
18 we started the Daniel Pitino Foundation to raise
19 money for children who not only had disabilities
20 but for research, and since and throughout the
21 years, and I am very proud today that we have
22 raised over $5 million that have gone to
23 children in need.
24 And the most important thing that I
25 have done as a basketball coach is we have
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1 established the Daniel Pitino's Homeless Shelter
2 in Owensboro, Kentucky, that houses over 70
3 battered women and children and feeds in a soup
4 kitchen seven days a week over a hundred
5 different people in the State of Kentucky.
6 It's been there now quite some time,
7 and that's probably the thing I am most proud of
8 as a basketball coach in helping to celebrate
9 Daniel's life.
10 As we move forward in my life, my best
11 friend in life was Billy Minardi, a dormitory
12 that all these ugly things happened was named
13 after him.
14 My brother-in-law, Don Voght, married
15 to Mary Minardi, Joan's sister, was hailing a
16 taxi one day because he was at a retirement
17 party and he gave his voucher to go home to the
18 retiree. It was down in Tribeca, New York,
19 where it's very dark, not like it is today.
20 At 11:00 o'clock at night Don hailed
21 a taxi and was killed. He had three young
22 children and he was in a coma for two weeks and
23 Billy Minardi and myself were there. Don had a
24 limited life insurance policy of $25,000 with
25 three young kids.
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1 Billy and I made a pack that night
2 that we would take care of those three children
3 for the rest of our life, pay their college
4 needs, take care of whatever would be. Billy was
5 a very generous person, very warm hearted, and I
6 felt I would follow suit.
7 Six months later, at 9/11, a plane
8 went through the World Trade Center. At the top
9 was Cantor Fitzgerald, and I lost my best friend
10 in life. And my life would never be the same at
11 that moment. But somehow, some way, like
12 Daniel, we had to celebrate his life.
13 At a statue at Old Memorial Golf
14 Course at Tampa, Florida, at the highest point
15 after the tenth hole there is a statue of Timmy
16 Coglan and Billy Minardi with their hands up,
17 and it's a ritual that every caddie, every
18 person whether they knew him or not, as they
19 walked from the tenth green to the eleventh tee
20 box, everybody would high five them.
21 If they got a birdie, they would sign
22 the ball and leave it at the base of the statue.
23 I said what an incredible thing for the rest of
24 our lives to have that happen.
25 I wanted to do something and celebrate
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1 Billy's life in the worst way. I went to the
2 President, Dr. Ramsey, I said, Dr. Ramsey, I
3 would like to build a dormitory in my brother-
4 in-law's name. He said, I am sorry, Rick, we
5 can't do that. We would have to do it for other
6 sports, and we don't have the finances to do
7 something like that.
8 I said, Dr. Ramsey, what if I raised
9 $5 million, just give me a piece of land. we
10 will call it Billy Minardi Hall, would you let
11 me have the land? He said yes. We built it in
12 over a year from people in New York, believe it
13 or not, the University of Kentucky where I met
14 some people that met Billy, and we built that
15 dormitory as a legacy for him and his family to
16 get through the toughest moments of our life
17 because our life would never be the same after
18 9/11.
19 He also had three young children, and
20 now it's my responsibility to raise not only my
21 five children but the six children who were left
22 without a father in a span of six months.
23 The Minardis moved to Kentucky, five
24 homes down from me. Don Voght's oldest son,
25 Billy, was a manager of my basketball team and
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1 lived in Billy Minardi Hall. Billy Minardi's
2 son, William, lived in Minardi Hall as a video
3 coordinator. Robert Minardi, his youngest son,
4 lived in Minardi Hall right down the hallway
5 from Andre McGee.
6 So, this was our legacy for Billy,
7 something we were so proud of, something we
8 celebrate because those priests on the altar
9 told me, just like the Irish wake, to celebrate
10 life. And when this happened and all this took
11 place, it once again devastated our family.
12 That dormitory was built as a shrine and a
13 memory to someone we loved very much.
14 Most people I have asked, coaches
15 especially, how many times do you enter your
16 players' dormitories? I know my coach, who is
17 no longer with us never entered my dormitory as
18 a basketball player. And most coaches, unless
19 they were promoting a game and try to rally the
20 students, never enter dormitories.
21 I entered that dormitory all the time,
22 so proud of it. If a chair was broken, I made
23 sure it got fixed. If the RA contacted us and
24 there was a problem, I fixed that problem right
25 away because this was a shrine to someone I
Page 29
1 loved very much.
2 The embarrassment, the humiliation,
3 the disgust I have for what went on in that
4 dormitory is something that keeps me up at night
5 almost every night as well as the Minardi
6 family.
7 That being said, I will end this by
8 bringing you through the, it's not to feel sorry
9 for what our family has gone through, it's just
10 I wanted to tell you how we have celebrated the
11 lives of people we love. Not about the games
12 but about the celebrations of something that's
13 so meaningful.
14 As I stated earlier the enforcement
15 staff was very professional. I do not agree, I
16 have monitored every little thing that goes on
17 in our program. One writer said how could Rick
18 Pitino not know what was going on? He knows
19 every single person, coach as well as players,
20 body fat to a degree.
21 Well, I can assure you if I knew
22 anything about that situation, not only would
23 everybody have been gone within 24 hours, but
24 the embarrassment it has caused our family and
25 our University is beyond comprehension.
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1 I am sorry for being a little lengthy
2 about it, but it's very, very important to me
3 that you get to know something outside of the
4 basketball life what I am about. I thank you
5 for listening.
6 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
7 Mr. Williams, do you or your counsel wish to
8 make an opening statement?
9 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, he is going to
10 speak for me.
11 MR. GINSBERG: Good morning. Thank
12 you-all for your attention to this.
13 I feel almost as if we should take a
14 break and let Coach Pitino's words sink in. To
15 speak right after what we have just heard is not
16 only a difficult task, but I don't want to
17 minimize in any way the message that Coach
18 Pitino has communicated.
19 Having said that, President Postel
20 spoke with eloquence about his institutional
21 pride and Coach Pitino spoke with eloquence
22 about his pride of not only his family but his
23 values.
24 I am here on behalf of an individual.
25 President Postel referred to the horror and the
Page 31
1 disgust of the allegations. That disgust is
2 what has already stigmatized Mr. Williams, what
3 has already almost cost him his job. It has
4 brought upon him media attention and while at
5 the end of the day I think all of you will agree
6 that he shouldn't be here at all today. It's a
7 taint that he'll never be able to escape.
8 There is one issue that I wish I could
9 agree with Coach Pitino about, and that is his
10 respect for the way the enforcement group has
11 gone about this investigation. From our
12 standpoint, and in our experience, proceedings
13 like that in which the enforcement group has
14 engaged shape fundamental notions of fairness
15 which are essential to any adjudication for
16 review process.
17 And as you'll hear as we present our
18 rebuttal to Allegation No. 3, the investigation
19 of Mr. Williams was not grounded on principles
20 of reasonableness. The demands that were made
21 upon him again and again and again for
22 information was for information which was not
23 relevant to anything that you will hear about
24 today.
25 And despite those ongoing demands,
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1 despite the fact that he had already left the
2 University of Louisville during the course of
3 the investigation, Mr. Williams complied. He
4 complied with every time-consuming relevance,
5 frankly annoying demand which took him away from
6 his new job.
7 I am going to ask you to look and see
8 whether there was any evidentiary basis to have
9 made those demands in the first place. Whether
10 the ongoing demands were appropriate for any
11 investigation or whether, instead, and I submit
12 they were, those ongoing demands were grounded
13 in vague suspicions, not in findings, not in
14 evidence and not in information, but a vague
15 suspicion that someone was involved with giving
16 Katina Powell money on July 22nd, who was an
17 African-American, and Mr. Williams was an
18 African-American.
19 There was no evidence that he was
20 involved in any way in these matters or had any
21 information or any knowledge about anything that
22 you are going to be hearing about when you
23 review Allegations 1, 2 and 4.
24 Brandon has always been and remains a
25 role model for what is wonderful about sports.
Page 33
1 He isn't gifted in size, but he is gifted with
2 heart. He gives his all to everything as he did
3 to the University of Louisville when he served
4 for two years as a graduate student, a graduate
5 assistant.
6 He conducted himself in a professional
7 and outstanding way. He is now immersed himself
8 back home in Miami with developing an inner-city
9 sports program and a scholarship program. He
10 helps run an inner-city magnet program, exposing
11 students to the educational opportunities to
12 which they can avail themselves.
13 The enforcement actions that you are
14 going to be hearing about threaten that job,
15 that dedication, the reputation he is built and
16 the career that lies before him.
17 As Brandon told the NCAA, Coach Pitino
18 always insisted on dedication, hard work and the
19 highest standards of conduct, and Brandon held
20 himself up to those standards when he was at
21 Louisville and he remains true to those
22 standards.
23 When we present our opposition to
24 Allegation No. 3, we are going to address the
25 nature of the accusation that he failed to
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1 cooperate. We are going to address all other
2 ways that Brandon did cooperate and more, until
3 the NCAA made a demand on him for records which
4 were not his, which he could not produce, and
5 which thanks to a recent decision by the NCAA
6 Appeals Committee involving Southern
7 Mississippi, we now know the NCAA had no right
8 to demand, yet we are still here.
9 There are also issues of the integrity
10 of the proceedings that we will be addressing.
11 One issue that you probably can't cure today,
12 but I suggest made all of this more difficult,
13 is that Brandon in his mid-twenties couldn't
14 afford counsel. And I do suggest that if the
15 communication to the NCAA had been clearer, that
16 the one demand that the NCAA claims he did not
17 fulfill was a demand that he could not fulfill.
18 That perhaps the NCAA enforcement
19 would have said well, you've done
20 everything we have asked for, we can't
21 ask for this one piece of information,
22 his mother's phone records. So go and
23 have a decent and productive life.
24 Now, the fact that the Southern
25 Mississippi decision, which makes it crystal
Page 35
1 clear that the NCAA had no right to demand these
2 documents, and Brandon could not produce those
3 documents, the fact that the NCAA enforcement
4 didn't inform you as well as us that these
5 proceedings against Brandon should not be going
6 forward causes me some skepticism about whether
7 enforcement, in fact, would have abided by the
8 NCAA law and let Brandon go on with his life.
9 We are going to explore with you each
10 of the rationalizations that the NCAA
11 enforcement provided as a basis for these
12 ongoing almost ad infinitum demands on Brandon.
13 I submit that you will be shocked at
14 the speciousness of those rationalizations, but
15 I want to give you one highlight that I believe
16 shows how tainted these proceedings were with
17 regard t Brandon and how fundamentally
18 compromised this investigation of Brandon has
19 been.
20 The NCAA enforcement has made it clear
21 that it believes, it suspects that Brandon was
22 the person who gave $200 to Ms. Powell, as I
23 said, on July 22nd, 2014. I only recently
24 learned, and I must say I didn't start to
25 represent Brandon until after the allegations
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1 was lodged against him, I made my representation
2 known, I only found out within the last couple
3 of weeks that NCAA enforcement had shown a photo
4 spread to Katina Powell. The photo spread
5 consisted of three photos and for those of you
6 who have had any experience with law
7 enforcement, and I know this from my many years
8 as a former federal prosecutor, a three photo
9 spread array is in and of itself tainted.
10 No law enforcement professional would
11 have only provided three photos. But having
12 said that -- and they wouldn't do it because it
13 is unfairly suggestive. But having said that,
14 Katina Powell, I am told, looked at all three
15 photos and said no, the person who gave me the
16 money on July 22nd is not any of those three.
17 And the enforcement people pushed and she said
18 no, that is not one of the three people.
19 So, extraordinarily, enforcement then
20 said, well, which of the three people looks most
21 like the person who gave you the money? Now, I
22 acknowledge I am only getting this information
23 second hand, because to this day the enforcement
24 people had decided that this is not exculpatory
25 information. This is not information that I and
Page 37
1 Brandon deserve to have. This is not relevant,
2 related, appropriate for us to know about, so I
3 don't have this information first hand.
4 But finally as enforcement pushed,
5 apparently Ms. Powell said, well, I guess of the
6 three, that one, Mr. Williams, is the most like
7 the three but he has a different hairline than
8 the person who gave me the money.
9 That is the kind of suspicion with
10 which enforcement has dragged Mr. Williams into
11 these proceedings? That's not right. It's just
12 plain not right.
13 The enforcement group's most recent
14 rationalization was, well, we are not charging
15 Mr. Williams with giving the money, we are
16 charging him with not giving us the phone
17 records which we believe may have resulted in
18 some relevant information.
19 As the Panel will hear, there is not a
20 single witness, a single record, a single piece
21 of evidence that in any way inculpates Brandon
22 in anything having to do with this
23 investigation, not an iota of evidence. And yet
24 despite that, they pushed and they pushed and
25 they pushed, and Brandon cooperated and
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1 cooperated and cooperated until we hit a dead 1 men's basketball programs make staff changes.
2 end. 2 In the spring of 2010, the University of
3 They wanted Brandon's phone records. 3 Louisville's men's basketball program and its
4 They weren't Brandon's phone records, they were 4 head coach, Rick Pitino, made such a change when
5 his mother's phone records. And by then, she 5 they hired one of their own, former men's
6 said to Brandon I don't trust the NCAA, I know 6 basketball student-athlete and recent graduate
7 what they put you through. Those phone records 7 Andre McGee.
8 are going to relate to personal matters, my 8 For the next four academic years,
9 matters, our family matters, all of whom are on 9 McGee worked as a program assistant for two
10 those records, and I don't want to expose even 10 years and the Director of Basketball Operations
11 my name to the NCAA. 11 for two years. Coach Pitino's program had McGee
12 And Brandon said, well, maybe we 12 live on campus in Billy Minardi Hall, a two
13 should just give them records from my phone. 13 story, 38-bed dormitory that housed the entire
14 And she said no, we are done. And everyone 14 men's basketball team, to monitor the student-
15 should have been done. And Brandon should not 15 athletes living there and the prospective
16 be here. And his reputation and his career 16 student-athletes who stayed in the dorm during
17 should not be jeopardized both because of the 17 unofficial and official paid visits to the
18 process and because of the one piece of material 18 institution.
19 that the NCAA has based its lack of cooperation, 19 Not only was McGee tasked with
20 this allegation that Mr. Williams is unethical. 20 monitoring, he was also relied on as a recent
21 I wish that I could have come away 21 grad of the program to connect with the
22 from this with the same respect for the process 22 prospects and let them know what it was like to
23 as Coach Pitino, but I can't. Thank you. 23 play for his former coach and the Louisville
24 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. 24 Cardinals.
25 Mr. Hostetter, will you be making an opening 25 Despite the program's heavy reliance
Page 39 Page 41
1 statement on behalf of the Conference? 1 on McGee in regard to on-campus recruiting,
2 MR. HOSTETTER: Good morning, Dr. 2 nobody in the program, including Coach Pitino,
3 Cartwright, and I will defer any statement until 3 was adequately monitoring Andre McGee's
4 the conclusion of the hearing. 4 interactions with the prospects and the student-
5 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. 5 athletes to the point that McGee felt
6 Ms. Hannah, will the enforcement staff be making 6 comfortable enough to provide impermissible
7 an opening statement? 7 inducements and offers and extra benefits in
8 MS. HANNAH: Yes. Nate Leffler and 8 Minardi and local hotels for almost four years.
9 Mark Strothkamp are the two investigators on 9 These inducements, offers and extra
10 this case, so they'll be presenting the 10 benefits were not your typical run of the mill
11 allegations. Nate will do the opening and 11 free transportation, lodging or clothing. McGee
12 Allegations 1 and 4, and Mark will do 12 felt secure enough in his position with the
13 Allegations 2 and 3. 13 men's basketball staff and the environment at
14 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay. 14 Minardi Hall to arrange for and pay female adult
15 Anything further? Mr. Leffler. 15 entertainers to provide at least 17 young
16 MR. LEFFLER: Thank you, Dr. 16 prospects and student-athletes, and a number of
17 Cartwright. 17 others strip tease shows and sex acts in an on-
18 Madam Chair, members of the Hearing 18 campus dormitory or area hotels multiple times
19 Panel, when reviewing this case's allegations, 19 for almost a four-year period.
20 the parties are in substantial disagreement on 20 McGee also provided cash to some of
21 only a small percentage of the violations. 21 the prospects to tip the women. Whether McGee
22 As outlined in the responses and 22 felt that this was, one, a way for him as an
23 enforcement staff's reply, the number of this 23 adult staff member living in an undergraduate
24 case's disputes are limited. 24 dorm to fit in with his fellow undergraduate
25 Every spring NCAA member institutions' 25 student-athlete residents and the young
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1 prospects he was tasked to interact and connect
2 with, or, two, a way to prove his worth to the
3 program by supplying these types of inducements
4 and offers to prospects.
5 It is clear that McGee was not
6 apprehensive whatsoever about making these
7 arrangements when highly sought after
8 prospective student-athletes were visiting the
9 institution or the Louisville area.
10 And as the enforcement staff will
11 discuss in greater detail later, head coach Rick
12 Pitino did not rebut the presumption that he was
13 responsible for McGee's violations by
14 demonstrating that he appropriately monitored
15 him.
16 The institution and the enforcement
17 staff have been unable to pinpoint the exact
18 rationale behind McGee's unethical conduct
19 because he has not fully cooperated with this
20 investigation. Additionally, another former
21 staff member, Brandon Williams, has chosen to
22 not fully cooperate.
23 Despite these roadblocks, the
24 institution and enforcement staff have worked
25 cooperatively in a thorough and proven fashion
Page 43
1 throughout this investigation.
2 The enforcement staff looks forward to
3 presenting each of this case's four allegations
4 and answering any of the Committee's questions
5 regarding this case. Thank you. At this time
6 the enforcement staff is prepared to proceed
7 with the presentation of Allegation No. 1.
8 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Do I
9 understand, Ms. Hannah, that there is another
10 opening statement as well? That is it? Okay,
11 fine.
12 Then we will proceed to Allegation 1
13 and, Mr. Leffler, you are going to begin.
14 MR. LEFFLER: Thank you, Dr.
15 Cartwright. The enforcement staff has briefed
16 its positions regarding this case's allegations
17 in its written reply and acknowledges that the
18 Hearing Panel has had an opportunity to review
19 the reply before today's hearing.
20 As a result, the staff's presentation
21 will mainly focus on highlighting the major
22 issues in dispute.
23 Allegation No. 1 addresses Andre
24 McGee, a men's basketball staff member
25 representative of the institution's athletics
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1 interest, arranging for the provision of
2 impermissible inducements and offers and extra
3 benefits to men's basketball prospects, student-
4 athletes and others connected to prospects in
5 the form of adult entertainment, sex acts and
6 cash at on-campus dormitories and area hotels.
7 McGee arranged for and provided these
8 impermissible inducements, offers and extra
9 benefits that were worth at least $5,400 from at
10 least December of 2010 through July of 2014.
11 The enforcement staff and institution
12 are in substantial agreement on the facts of
13 this allegation and that those facts constitute
14 violations of NCAA legislation.
15 The institution disputes the dollar
16 values assigned to only ten of the 43 violations
17 in Allegation No. 1 and then prospects and
18 student-athletes' receipt of inducements and
19 extra benefits.
20 Mr. McGee informed the parties in
21 writing that he would not be providing a
22 response to the Notice of Allegations due to a
23 pending related criminal investigation.
24 Regarding the level of this violation,
25 the enforcement staff and institution both agree
Page 45
1 that this allegation is Level I. However, the
2 institution feels that each of the 15
3 subparagraphs is independently a Level III
4 violation based on the dollar value of each
5 violation.
6 Whether the dollar value is $5 or
7 $5,000, a staff member arranging and funding
8 adult entertainers to provide prospects,
9 student-athletes and others associated with
10 prospects strip tease shows, oral sex, sexual
11 intercourse in on-campus dormitory and area
12 hotels, it is clearly Level I behavior and much
13 more severe than the examples of free coaching,
14 meals, lodging, golf, et cetera, that the
15 institution lists in support of its response.
16 Each subparagraph is independently
17 more severe than a Level III violation. The
18 violations seriously undermine or threaten the
19 integrity of the Collegiate Model in that they,
20 one, provided or intended to provide a
21 substantial or extensive recruiting advantage or
22 a substantial or extensive impermissible
23 benefit.
24 Two, included a men's basketball staff
25 member providing cash, other benefits and/or
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1 inducements intended to secure enrollment of 1 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Let me
2 prospective student-athletes at the institution. 2 make sure I understand your proposal. Go
3 Three, involved intentional 3 through every subparagraph beginning with "a"
4 violations; and 4 and go right straight through?
5 Four, involved a reckless indifference 5 MR. SMRT: Yes, yes. Although like
6 to NCAA bylaws. 6 for 1-a, we would be very limited. We have
7 Regardless of the institution's 7 about two sentences to say on 1-a, yes. But I
8 position related to each subparagraph, the 8 have some general comments that we wanted to
9 parties are in agreement Allegation No. 1 is 9 make on behalf of the institution concerning
10 Level I. 10 overall on 1 and then we can get into 1-a, and
11 The institution and enforcement staff 11 again those would be very, very limited.
12 are in substantial agreement on the facts and 12 We aren't disagreeing with Nate that,
13 that those facts constitute violations of NCAA 13 for example, on 1-a, we agree with both the
14 legislation in seven of the 15 subparagraphs. 14 facts and the values.
15 Those include Allegation 1-a, 1-c, 1-e, 1-g. 1- 15 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Are the
16 i, 1-m and 1-n. 16 enforcement staff members agreeable if we
17 In six of the remaining eight 17 proceed this way? I think what we are doing
18 subparagraphs, the institution and enforcement 18 really is going through everything except 1-b
19 staff are in substantial agreement on the facts 19 and 1-d, and then we will come back to you for
20 and that those facts constitute violations of 20 1-b and "d" and then back to the institution?
21 NCAA legislation. However, the institution 21 MR. LEFFLER: That's fine.
22 disputes the specific dollar value assigned to 22 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER; Okay. So,
23 certain inducements and/or extra benefits in 23 when you present the institution's response on
24 those specific subparagraphs. 24 these allegations, let's pull out "b" and "d"
25 These subparagraphs include 1-f, 1-h, 25 because the enforcement staff has not yet had
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1 1-j, 1-k, 1-l and 1-o. Regarding these dollar 1 the opportunity to present those.
2 value disputes, the factual information in this 2 MR. SMRT: It was my thought if Nate
3 case supports the amounts stated in the Notice 3 wanted to present something concerning 1, he
4 of Allegations. 4 could, and then I would have a chance to respond
5 It is uncontroverted that these sex 5 to 1 overall and then 1-a, and then we would go
6 acts and/or strip tease shows occurred. These 6 to "b".
7 violations are severe regardless of the dollar 7 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: We can do
8 value assigned to them. 8 that as long as we go back to him to present.
9 That leaves us with the institution 9 MR. SMRT: We want to make sure the
10 having a substantial disagreement with the facts 10 enforcement staff has the opportunity to present
11 in only two of the 15 subparagraphs in 11 on those individual ones.
12 Allegation No. 1, which are 1-b and 1-d. 12 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay. But
13 At this time the staff would like to 13 let's proceed then that way. So it's your
14 present Allegation No. 1-b. 14 opportunity now to make general comments about
15 MR. SMRT: We had some general 15 Allegation "a" and to speak to the subparagraphs
16 comments on 1, and I guess we would think it 16 that are relevant here, pulling out "b" and "d".
17 would be beneficial to get into each of the 17 MR. SMRT: Okay. I am not sure exactly
18 specific subparagphs because of the difference 18 -- we will get through it. We will figure it
19 in the values. I don't know, I guess Nate wants 19 out as we go along. We have some general
20 to go to 1-b, I guess, because that's where 20 comments on 1, and we can talk about 1-a at that
21 there is a dispute, and there is a dispute, not 21 point.
22 a significant dispute. But I guess we think it 22 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: All right.
23 would be better to go subparagraph by 23 MR. SMRT: I think we know where we
24 subparagraph as opposed to skipping some of the 24 are going with it, so I think we will be fine.
25 subparagraphs. 25 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Proceed.
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1 MR. SMRT: Good. Well, I did have
2 some general comments overall on 1, and also
3 wanted to provide the opportunity for you to ask
4 questions of us about 1.
5 This is embarrassing and disgusting
6 behavior on the part of a staff member. There
7 is no way around it. As Nate said, we agree
8 with all but two subparagraphs, and using their
9 numbering system, we agree with 40 of 43
10 activities in this allegation.
11 I was retained a few days after the
12 institution received information from
13 Indianapolis Business Journal about a situation
14 involving Minardi Hall. At that time Athletics
15 Director Jurich said find the truth, I want to
16 know if any of this has any merit at all, and if
17 it does, we are going to act because of the
18 disgusting nature of this type of activity.
19 The institution has taken
20 responsibility and has taken very significant
21 action.
22 In this allegation we believe the
23 enforcement staff is being somewhat stubborn,
24 somewhat aggressive on retaining their position
25 on these three items that are still in dispute.
Page 51
1 We believe the values of the benefits that we
2 are still in disagreement on, again we believe
3 the enforcement staff is being stubborn as the
4 institution has acknowledged 40 of 43 activities
5 in this case.
6 We don't believe the level of
7 information is credible and persuasive and meets
8 the standard of 19.7.8.3 regarding those three,
9 and we are going to talk about those three in
10 specifics.
11 Regarding the value of the benefits,
12 the enforcement staff is alleging $5400, we are
13 at $4500. The $900 difference comes out to
14 about $425 for the difference in whether
15 something happened and about $480 for the value
16 of the benefits.
17 All that being said, the enforcement
18 staff and the institution are in agreement that
19 whether you find those three situations that are
20 in dispute or whether you find there value of
21 the benefits or our value of the benefits, the
22 case severity stays the same. As a result, we
23 just don't think we need to get into the
24 specific of some sex acts and getting into the
25 very specifics of some of these things because,
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1 again, it doesn't affect case severity and we
2 will come back to that in a moment.
3 Katina Powell is the star in this
4 case, she is the star witness. We believe if
5 you are going to use her, she needs to be
6 corroborated. We have indicated four reasons
7 why we don't believe she should be used alone.
8 We don't believe you should use the journals.
9 The biggest differences between the staff and us
10 is the journals. We have detailed in our
11 response why we don't think you should use the
12 journals.
13 We didn't have an opportunity to
14 review all the journals, there was no
15 opportunity to test the journals, we never got
16 to look at them for any extended period of time.
17 So we have a concern about the journals. We
18 have a concern about her testimony to the point
19 where it should be corroborated.
20 We are acknowledging 40 of 43
21 activities of very embarrassing, disgusting,
22 appalling behavior, but we don't think we need
23 to get into some of the specific values. We are
24 going along with some of that.
25 This is confined to one staff member
Page 53
1 in one area. Fifteen prospects, two student-
2 athletes and three other people, 23 unofficial
3 or official visits out of over 200 during this
4 four-year period. So these activities involved
5 15 prospects, two student-athletes and three
6 others, two coaches, two non-scholastic coaches
7 and a friend. Over 23 unofficial or official
8 visits out of 200 during this four-year period.
9 How many people did we interview?
10 Approximately 50 athletes were interviewed,
11 about 30 former or current athletes and about 20
12 athletes who were recruited but never went
13 there. Why is that relevant? Because out of
14 all these 50 people recruitment that was
15 reviewed, what you are left with today is these
16 allegations that are confined primarily to one
17 area, which is visits.
18 We ask that the Committee strike
19 language in Allegations 1 and 4 as it relates to
20 the phrase "at least". You'll notice in
21 Allegations 1 and 4 it says that this activity
22 began at least by December 2010.
23 The enforcement staff has not alleged
24 any activity prior to 2010. It implies somehow
25 that there was activity. We would say if the
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1 enforcement staff has it, present it and let's
2 move on. We would ask you in any finding, and
3 you are going to make a finding because again we
4 are acknowledging 40 of 43, we would ask that in
5 Allegations 1 and 4 that you delete the phrase
6 "at least".
7 Regarding the value of the benefits.
8 Again, that's one of our points of contention
9 with the enforcement staff. It's either $5400
10 or $4500. There is a $900 difference. We
11 believe of the 900, 425 comes from our
12 disagreement on those three acts and $480 is
13 overvalued. Of that $4500, only $800 is cash,
14 and that's the cash that McGee gave to the
15 prospects to provide to the dancers.
16 Very important to the institution is
17 that this allegation does not allege that McGee
18 paid Powell. This allegation does not state
19 that McGee paid Powell. Now, I am not going to
20 tell you that I think Powell did this out of the
21 kindness of the heart, but the allegation is the
22 value of the benefits. The only cash that's
23 included in the allegation is the $800 from the
24 cash that McGee gave to the prospects.
25 How did we get these values? We
Page 55
1 didn't do a survey. We didn't go out and do a
2 survey of what the going rate is in the
3 Louisville area. We base this upon Powell's
4 statements, and we were a little uncomfortable
5 doing that because of her inexactness in her
6 testimony. But we went with Powell's statements
7 on what she valued it at and what she got, I
8 guess, from McGee.
9 Most of the differences between us and
10 the staff on the values relates to the journal,
11 when she put something different in her journal.
12 So she may say she said a dance was worth $250,
13 that she got $250 for bringing one to four women
14 over to Minardi. So be it. We feel like we
15 made a good faith effort, say, okay, we have got
16 to come up with something so we will go along
17 with $250. Now, in her journal sometimes she'll
18 say $350, and the staff has used that, and we
19 will get into that in more specifics on each of
20 the subparagraphs. So that's our difference.
21 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Are you
22 finished?
23 MR. SMRT: I was not.
24 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Oh, sorry.
25 All right.
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1 MR. SMRT: Is that a suggestion?
2 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: No, but go
3 ahead.
4 MR. SMRT: I only had a couple more
5 points. So the source of funds, what was the
6 source of funds for the $800? That was
7 something obviously we took very seriously.
8 What we did, we looked at internal records. We
9 looked at all of the official visit records.
10 Was there some way that McGee was taking money
11 out of the student hosts' money, or some way how
12 was McGee funding $800?
13 So we looked at official visit
14 records. We looked at his reimbursements to the
15 University for miscellaneous expenses, and if I
16 remember, I think there were four to six over a
17 four-year period. So there really weren't many
18 reimbursements that he got because again on an
19 official visit it was the assistant coach who
20 was paying for things, not McGee. So, we didn't
21 have many McGee reimbursements.
22 We looked at complimentary admissions.
23 We also looked at Booster Club accounts. There
24 is a men's basketball account that we looked at
25 that is under the control of the University. It
Page 57
1 has the normal three or four signatures that you
2 would have in most University accounts.
3 We looked at travel manifests on the
4 plane, on the charters, to see who was traveling
5 on the plane. Could one of these individuals be
6 the source? We interviewed individuals who were
7 close to the program. The staff heard rumors,
8 we heard rumors, and we followed up on those.
9 But we don't have a source of funds for the $800
10 in cash that we know, the approximate amount
11 that we believe McGee gave to the dancers.
12 McGee's salary, McGee was a Program
13 Assistant, which is basically a GA, he was
14 making $1500 a month and a stipend, and he was
15 getting free room and board for two years. He
16 then becomes the OPS person. At that point he
17 was making $100,000, got a month bonus salary
18 and getting free room and board.
19 So, did he have some money? Yes. He
20 had for a single person -- he had played
21 professional basketball in Europe also prior to
22 coming to the institution.
23 Why did McGee do this? We don't know.
24 He denied it. When Coach Pitino confronted him
25 in late August, he denied it. When I did the
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1 only interview of McGee four days later, he
2 denied it. So we don't know why he did it.
3 It's reasonable to conclude it would help the
4 institution's efforts.
5 I would disagree with Nate, I guess,
6 in his opening that somehow he decided to use
7 sex acts because of ability to -- that there was
8 no monitoring. I don't think whether there was
9 monitoring or not led to the nature of the
10 activities. He had little personal gain because
11 the assistant coaches would have got credit if
12 that athlete would have come.
13 We believe he enjoyed it. He was
14 present. A couple of the athletes talk about
15 him partaking of it. So maybe that was part of
16 it. How did it not come out? And we are going
17 to talk about that, I think with 4 in a little
18 bit, but how did it not come out?
19 We believe precautions were taken to
20 make sure it didn't come out. I know Athletic
21 Director Jurich wanted to speak to this about
22 some of his frustration with all of this as it
23 pertains to why it didn't come out.
24 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: It sounds
25 to me like you are getting close to Allegation 4
Page 59
1 that hasn't been presented yet, so let's be sure
2 that these comments are confined to Allegation
3 1.
4 MR. SMRT: Okay.
5 MR. JURICH: Thank you very much. My
6 name is Tom Jurich. I am the Athletic Director
7 at the University. And here again, I am not
8 going to continue to say what everybody says
9 because we all feel the exact same on this side
10 of the table.
11 I am embarrassed and ashamed of all
12 this that has happened. I am very, very
13 surprised at Andre's actions. Andre was a young
14 man that we recruited out of Southern
15 California. I grew up in Southern California.
16 He came from a very strong two-parent home, was
17 an excellent student for us who went on to
18 graduate school with us, did a great job. This
19 was something that just caught everybody by
20 surprise.
21 Could I have said in our programs over
22 the last 30 years or 20 years that I have been
23 there at the University of Louisville we could
24 have picked out somebody else that might have
25 been the person that would have been the
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Page 60
1 candidate for this, I would have certainly said
2 it, agreed.
3 You know, the one thing that I can say
4 from the beginning is we said we wanted to do
5 this the right way and we wanted to find the
6 truth. I have enormous respect for that side of
7 the table over there, and they all know that.
8 As somebody who has always followed the rules
9 and worked very, very hard for this to make sure
10 that our institution would always do it the
11 right way.
12 We can have problems, certainly. We
13 are in a huge institution just like there is
14 many around the country. But from the
15 beginning, we made the decision to find the
16 truth. That's why I hired this guy.
17 I have known Chuck for -- I have
18 roughly been an A.D. for 30 plus years, and I
19 have know Chuck the entire time so he has
20 somebody that I highly trust, somebody that I
21 respect, and he has earned the respect of
22 everybody in this room. There is no question
23 about it.
24 I remember saying that we wanted to
25 take action as soon as we knew about it. I went
Page 61
1 to the President who at the time was Jim Ramsey,
2 and I said once we have the facts, once Chuck
3 reports back to us with the facts, we will deal
4 with this immediately within 24 hours.
5 Chuck came to me around February 4th,
6 February 5th, and he told me and the President
7 and Elaine Wise, our Faculty Rep, what he had
8 found out, what his findings were. I told the
9 President, and the President said to me it would
10 be my call. I said I want to talk with coach,
11 but my decision would be made within less than
12 24 hours.
13 I went and sat down with Coach Pitino.
14 I laid out everything that Chuck told us, it was
15 just Coach Pitino and myself. Coach Pitino
16 wholeheartedly agreed that we would take major,
17 major drastic action.
18 At a very difficult time for us, that
19 we would hold our team out of the NCAA because I
20 said I wanted to do the dirty work. You know, I
21 was a big proponent of how the NCAA changed
22 several years ago in their enforcement, when it
23 was taken out of their hands and put it back on
24 the University. I was a big proponent of that,
25 I still am to this day. I wanted to make sure
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1 that we did everything so the blood was on our
2 hands, so to speak, not on theirs.
3 I went to Coach Pitino, it was a very
4 difficult decision that he had to make also
5 because he had to go face those 15 young men in
6 the locker room. Our community, I think as
7 everybody well knows, is highly passionate about
8 basketball. It's highly passionate in the
9 region because of the three schools, the
10 University of Indiana, Kentucky, Louisville,
11 Xaviar, another school, Cincinnati, that whole
12 market is a very, very strong market, well
13 represented, and it's been represented by CBS to
14 give you the facts.
15 In February 2016, Chuck updated us and
16 told us what the problems are and would you act?
17 And we said we will act, and we will do it
18 immediately and we banished our team from
19 postseason play which is the greatest and
20 toughest thing I have ever had to do in 32 years
21 as an A.D. and I hope I never even come close to
22 having to do that again.
23 It's been very, very difficult for our
24 community. It was the toughest thing for our
25 entire community. That is no excuse. We sit
Page 63
1 here in front of all of you and make no excuses,
2 never have for the last 19 months. That has
3 been a brutal penalty in itself is the 19
4 months, you know, because this is a very toxic
5 situation.
6 But I want you to know from the bottom
7 of my heart that we wanted to work diligently,
8 we wanted to tell the truth, we have been
9 extremely transparent. I back this process 110
10 percent, and we will do everything in our power
11 to make sure of it.
12 The one thing that I want to say,
13 though, is that there was no red flags to any of
14 us. There was no red flags at all.
15 MR. SMRT: We are not getting into 4.
16 Okay. So at this point, those are our general
17 comments concerning overall No. 1 and, Nate, you
18 know, on 1-a, we are in agreement and we have
19 nothing -- we agree with the number of
20 activities and we agree with the values.
21 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Let me
22 suggest that we have got three buckets here. We
23 have got seven subparagraphs where there is
24 agreement, "a", "c", "e", "g", "i", "m" and "n".
25 If there is any institutional comment about any
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1 of those subparagraphs, let's have them now.
2 MR. SMRT: About those that we are in
3 agreement with as to the values or the --
4 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: No, these
5 are ones where there is no dispute. There is a
6 number of others where there is disputes about
7 the values. But let's take these first where
8 there is no dispute.
9 MR. SMRT: As to those that there are
10 no dispute in the activities, the number of acts
11 or the value of benefits, we have nothing to add
12 to any of those.
13 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
14 Then there is no need to go subparagraph by
15 subparagraph where there is agreement and you
16 have nothing further to say.
17 MR. SMRT: Okay.
18 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Then there
19 is another group, eight, where for six of those
20 eight, if I am recalling this correctly, there
21 is a dispute about the values assigned in the
22 dollar amounts. And those would be "f", "h",
23 "j", "k", "l" and "o".
24 You've spoken in general about your
25 differences between the $5400 and the $4500. Is
Page 65
1 there anything specific that you would like to
2 say about any of those subparagraphs?
3 MR. SMRT: I guess possibly, but I
4 wouldn't want -- if the enforcement staff wanted
5 to present something on those, I would defer to
6 them if they had something that they wanted to
7 specifically present.
8 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr.
9 Leffler, you presented in general about that
10 cluster. Mr. Duncan.
11 MR. DUNCAN: I appreciate Mr. Jurich's
12 comments very much. Thank you.
13 I am not sure what to do with Mr.
14 Smrt's. I heard him make some argument,
15 questions, an motions to strike and a suggestion
16 that we make our presentation in an order that
17 he prefers rather than what we have elected to
18 do. He has injected some things into the
19 conversation out of order that we can take up
20 now. We were prepared to get to those later.
21 But to the specific question, we have
22 presented everything that we feel like we need
23 to present on those allegations. If the
24 institution has a response, they are free to
25 share it, but we have presented everything that
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1 we feel like we need to.
2 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: And then
3 we are going to come back to you for "b" and
4 "d".
5 MR. DUNCAN: That would be great.
6 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: So
7 anything specific to "f", "h", "j", "k", "l" or
8 "o"?
9 MR. SMRT: No, other than to reiterate
10 what I mentioned earlier that our biggest
11 concern -- I think generally speaking on the
12 difference in the values of the benefits, the
13 staff is using the journals as the source of the
14 information. We have agreed to, somewhat
15 unwillingly because of our concern about her
16 credibility, but we have agreed to use her
17 general statements during her interviews that
18 the sex acts are worth $80 and that the dances
19 are worth $250 or whatever.
20 The differences between the staff and
21 the institution on those now I think all of them
22 relate to the journal where she has written in
23 the journal that she got $350 for a dance. Our
24 concern is that we never got possession, we
25 never looked at all the journals, we didn't have
Page 67
1 access. We were given the four or five journal
2 books, they were tabbed, and we were told that
3 those that relate to the University are the
4 tabbed ones. You can look at those pages. We
5 didn't get to look at every page of the journal.
6 We know the media got to look at at least
7 another page because it made a comment that Rick
8 Pitino is the big person in this to get some
9 money.
10 So, our concern is the journals. We
11 don't believe you should use the journals. We
12 are acknowledging does it make much difference
13 between a $250 dance and a $350 dance? And if
14 you are going to go with $350, you are accepting
15 the journal and we are saying that's not fair
16 because we didn't have access to the journal
17 like we needed. That's the only difference.
18 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We
19 understand. Now, we are going to go back to
20 enforcement for the presentation of 1-b and 1-d.
21 And then you will have an opportunity to respond
22 on those two. I know Panelists are eager to
23 begin asking questions, so when we get those two
24 presentations accomplished, we will take a short
25 break and then we will move into the questions
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1 by the Panel.
2 So, Mr. Leffler, 1-b and 1-d?
3 MR. LEFFLER: Dr. Cartwright, is it
4 okay if I briefly, very briefly address the
5 concern with the journals?
6 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Sure.
7 MR. LEFFLER: Or we can wait until
8 after the presentation of 1-b and "d" since it
9 is recent.
10 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER; Go ahead.
11 MR. LEFFLER: Okay. Regarding the
12 journals, we were shown, along with the
13 institution, I say we, the staff, were shown
14 those journals during an interview with Ms.
15 Powell, at the conclusion of an interview with
16 Ms. Powell. Her attorney, in her attorney's
17 office, he opened the journals, presented all
18 the journals to us, and he paged through each
19 page and allowed us to read the entries that
20 were relevant to our inquiry because there were
21 entries in the journals that were not relevant
22 to the NCAA's inquiry.
23 Therefore, he would page through each
24 page or open each page, and we would review them
25 and the he would allow us to photograph the
Page 69
1 journal entry that was relevant to our inquiry.
2 The enforcement staff is unaware of
3 there being additional journals or pages that
4 concern this inquiry that were not shown to the
5 parties that were present. Mr. Smrt was present
6 too.
7 As far as testing the journals or
8 anything like that, I guess that is a position
9 of the institution. However, during her
10 interview, Ms. Powell represented that these are
11 my journals, I made the entries in these
12 journals, this is my information from me, or if
13 it's not from me, it's from a family member that
14 has information or knowledge of these incidents.
15 We didn't receive any information that
16 contradicted that, that these were not her
17 journals or her entries or her mental
18 impressions and information. So, therefore, the
19 enforcement staff feels as though those entries,
20 those journals were credible.
21 Regarding Katina Powell's credibility
22 in general, there are 15 subparagraphs in this
23 allegation. The majority, the vast majority of
24 these have either been reflected in the journals
25 or have been communicated about by Katina
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1 Powell. And as a result, each one that has been
2 alleged has been corroborated by Greg McClinton,
3 Marcus Georges-Hunt, Anton Gill, Terry Rozier,
4 Anthony "Cat" Barber, Marcus Lee, Chane Behanan,
5 Daniel Hamilton, JaQuan Lyle, Stanley Trice,
6 Chinanu Onuaku, Antonio Blakeney. At what point
7 do we stop questioning Katina Powell's
8 credibility? That's just a few of the people
9 that have -- I am probably missing a few that I
10 haven't mentioned.
11 In addition to that, Terry Rozier,
12 when he corroborated Katina Powell's
13 credibility, he didn't even have to sit down and
14 talk to us. He was an NBA player. He had no
15 stake in the game anymore. He was gone.
16 Additionally, Chane Behanan, when he
17 sat and spoke with the institution in that
18 initial very early interview, shouldn't say sat,
19 he talked to Chuck Smrt over the phone, he
20 didn't have to do that. He was long gone from
21 the institution; he didn't fall within the NCAA
22 jurisdiction, yet he confirmed what Katina
23 Powell reported.
24 In addition to that, she has also been
25 corroborated by Precious Burnley. Precious
Page 71
1 Burnley has a pending defamation of character
2 suit against Katina Powell. If anyone doesn't
3 want to corroborate what Katina Powell says, it
4 would be someone that has a pending lawsuit
5 against her for basically lying about her. Yet
6 Precious Burnley corroborated what Katina Powell
7 said about the incident that she was involved
8 in.
9 There is also documentary
10 corroborations, a hotel receipt regarding
11 Gregory Hartwell's interaction with Ms. Powell
12 that specifically corroborates the date,
13 location and room number that she met Mr.
14 Hartwell in and that was reflected in her
15 journal.
16 Media articles, text message records
17 regarding JaQuan Lyle's inducements, those also
18 corroborate what Ms. Powell said.
19 So, in sum, basically the enforcement
20 staff feels that Ms. Powell and her journals are
21 credible and that, yes, she did provide the
22 ranges for these inducements and the extra
23 benefits, and if we deviated from those ranges,
24 it was based on what she either reported in her
25 interviews, not strictly her journals as Mr.
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1 Smrt represented, what she reported in her
2 interviews about specific amounts that she
3 received or specific entries in her journals
4 that supported those deviations from the ranges
5 that Ms. Powell provided.
6 The one interesting aspect of the
7 institution's argument is this regarding the
8 disputed amounts. There is at least one
9 deviation from that range that is below the
10 range that Ms. Powell provided, and that
11 deviation that's below the range, which was
12 $140, is based on Ms. Powell specifically saying
13 that she received game tickets in exchange for
14 her services rather than cash payment.
15 Well, the institution is not disputing
16 that deviation, the one that's lower than her
17 range, only the ones that are above the range.
18 So, I mean, is Ms. Powell credible when she has
19 below the range or over the range or within the
20 range? That's the question.
21 So, the enforcement staff feels as
22 though Ms. Powell is credible, the journals are
23 credible, and we are prepared now to begin our
24 presentation of 1-b.
25 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Let's do
Page 73
1 1-b and 1-d.
2 MR. LEFFLER: Thank you. In May 2011,
3 then prospective men's basketball student-
4 athlete Kevin Ware took an official paid visit
5 to the institution. During his visit, he stayed
6 at Billy Minardi Hall. While at Minardi, McGee
7 arranged for female adult entertainers to
8 provide Ware and then prospect Chane Behanan a
9 strip tease show.
10 McGee also provided each approximately
11 $200 in cash, and McGee offered Ware the
12 opportunity to have sex with one of the adult
13 entertainers. The approximate value of these
14 inducements was determined to be $650. The
15 approximate value of the offer was determined to
16 be $80.
17 The institution disputes Behanan's
18 involvement in this violation. The factual
19 information supports that Behanan was involved.
20 Kevin Ware expressly identified Behanan as being
21 present and reported that Behanan received
22 approximately $200 from McGee.
23 Following receiving this information
24 from Kevin Ware during his November 2015
25 interview, the institution and staff made
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1 numerous attempts to interview Behanan, and he
2 refused to cooperate. The one interview that
3 Behanan participated in was done before Ware's
4 interview and before the institution and staff
5 were aware of the vast majority of this case's
6 background information and the release of Katina
7 Powell's book.
8 Finally, Katina Powell -- excuse me,
9 Anton Gill, Peyton Siva, Kevin Ware and Russ
10 Smith all identified Behanan as attending
11 different strip tease shows at Minardi, which
12 supports Behanan being present for more than the
13 one strip tease show he mentioned to the
14 institution in that early interview.
15 The factual information supports that
16 Behanan was involved in this violation, and this
17 concludes the staff's presentation of Allegation
18 No. 1-b.
19 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Proceed to
20 1-d.
21 MR. LEFFLER: Thank you. In the fall
22 of 2011, then men's basketball student-athlete
23 Peyton Siva resided in Minardi Hall, and McGee
24 arranged for female adult entertainers to
25 perform a strip tease show for Siva in the dorm.
Page 75
1 The value of this impermissible or extra benefit
2 was approximately $100. The institution also
3 disputes this allegation.
4 The factual information supports that
5 Siva was involved in this violation. Although
6 he appears to have minimized the amount of time
7 he was present at the adult entertainer's show
8 and the adult entertainer's level of undress,
9 Siva reported that he attended a gathering in
10 Minardi, in a Minardi dorm room other than his
11 own between his sophomore and senior years at
12 the institution.
13 He also reported that women were
14 present dancing in lingerie. He stayed for five
15 minutes. There were more women than men in the
16 room, and that Andre McGee and Chane Behanan
17 were also present.
18 Katina Powell stated in her journal
19 between September and October 2011 entries that
20 Peyton Siva attended a strip tease show at
21 Minardi and one of the women that accompanied
22 Powell to the show was named Precious. Precious
23 Burnley, a Powell associate that worked with
24 Powell during 2011 and 2012, who currently, as
25 recently stated, has a pending lawsuit against
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1 Powell and has contrary interest to corroborate
2 any information for Powell, reported that Peyton
3 Siva attended the whole 45-minute show or until
4 the very, very end where women were dancing nude
5 and/or topless.
6 The factual information supports that
7 this violation occurred. Peyton Siva appears to
8 have minimized the amount of time he was present
9 at the strip tease show and the women's level of
10 undress. However, even if Siva was only present
11 for five minutes, Siva's presence at the strip
12 tease show was different than the student-
13 athletes in the joint interpretation referenced
14 in the institution's response and is a violation
15 according to Siva's word alone.
16 As explained in the staff's reply,
17 unlike the student-athlete in the
18 interpretation, Siva went to the strip tease
19 show, it did not come to him in his room. And
20 Siva did not leave without stopping to watch the
21 entertainers. He reported he stayed for five
22 minutes and watched women dancing in lingerie.
23 Even if you do not consider Katina
24 Powell and Precious Burnley's information,
25 Peyton Siva has reported that he was involved in
Page 77
1 a violation.
2 This concludes the staff's
3 presentation of Allegation No. 1-d and
4 Allegation No. 1. Thank you.
5 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: And now
6 the opportunity for the institution to respond
7 to those two.
8 MR. SMRT: Only to those two, that's
9 all we are talking about?
10 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Yes.
11 MR. SMRT: With 1-b, there is two
12 athletes, Ware and Behanan. We agree with Ware.
13 The issue is with Behanan. And Behanan, when I
14 was retained, there was a rush to get as many
15 interviews done before this hit the press. So
16 we were searching because Behanan was a name
17 that came up from Indianapolis Business Journal,
18 so we sent the word out that we wanted we wanted
19 to interview Behanan.
20 So, one night I was driving home from
21 the airport in Kansas City, and Behanan calls my
22 cell. So I pulled over, all of the articles had
23 not come out yet, so my knowledge was limited of
24 the case. But Behanan said yes, he was aware of
25 a woman and he attended one dance. So, because
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1 of Behanan's statement that he attended one
2 dance, Behanan is named in two allegations. But
3 we are using him in 1-j as opposed to 1-b.
4 Now, Behanan was around, there is no
5 doubt that Behanan was around the females more
6 than any other athlete based upon what people
7 have said. It's not a violation to be around
8 these dancers, you know, in the hallway or
9 whatever, to socialize with them. The violation
10 is if they start dancing or doing other things
11 that the athletes are partaking.
12 So, with 1-b, it's as simple -- as to
13 1-b and you can see our response of details we
14 think the reasons of Ware's confusion, et
15 cetera. Behanan, we tried to interview Behanan
16 again, and the enforcement staff made efforts to
17 interview Behanan again. He refused to
18 cooperate and he was disassociated from the
19 institution as of a week or two ago. So that's
20 1-b.
21 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
22 MR. SMRT: Now going to 1-d is Peyton
23 Siva. Siva was one of the most popular players
24 in Louisville's recent basketball history, aery
25 good player, a very popular player.
Page 79
1 We disagree that a violation occurred,
2 but we have stated that Siva said he was in
3 there for five minutes. Now, if the Committee
4 believes that Siva's statement that he was in
5 there for five minutes is a violation, then so
6 be it. The staff has put the value of that
7 dance of his value as $100. We don't believe
8 that -- again, if you would come out, him being
9 there for five minutes, we don't believe that
10 should be appraised at $100 value.
11 Now, Powell will say Siva was there
12 later on back in 2012. We believe the issue was
13 between Burnley and Siva. Precious Burnley said
14 what Nate mentioned and what's in the response
15 that he was there the whole time, that Siva was
16 there the whole time. Siva said five minutes.
17 Powell's statement relates to an
18 activity later on, about a year later, where she
19 puts Siva there. So, if Siva was there at
20 another time, that's not alleged. What's
21 alleged is this activity in the fall.
22 So, we believe you are basically
23 looking at do you believe Precious Burnley, a
24 woman who was interviewed five years after the
25 fact of how long one of several athletes stayed
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1 in a dark room when she was dancing, and whether
2 that's credible enough to meet the standard of
3 credible and persuasive as indicated in the
4 bylaws.
5 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
6 So, I believe that we have everything that needs
7 to be said from the point of view of the
8 enforcement staff about Allegation 1 and all
9 subparagraphs, and similarly from the
10 institution. I know the Panel is eager to
11 engage in some dialogue, but I think it's time
12 for us to take a ten-minute break. So we will
13 take a break and when we come back, it will be
14 the Panel's opportunity to begin with their
15 questions.
16 (RECESS.)
17 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I think
18 everyone is back in the room so let's proceed.
19 It's now time for the Panel's inquiries, and I
20 am going to begin with Mr. Bock.
21 MR. BOCK: Thank you, Madam Chairman.
22 Mr. Smrt, I just want to make sure I understand
23 your position and appreciate the fact that
24 agreement ha been obtained with the enforcement
25 staff on the value of many of the benefits. But
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1 a lot of time has been devoted to the
2 disagreements in value and I would like to
3 understand all the ways in which you feel that
4 the value of the benefits are relevant to the
5 decision that this Committee needs to make.
6 MR. SMRT: We don't believe it affects
7 case severity. Again, if we are $900 apart on
8 the value of the benefits, or only four
9 something, we don't believe it affects case
10 severity. It could when you get into -- we want
11 to address with the Committee the vacation of
12 records that was alluded to earlier in the day,
13 and if you start adding up numbers when looking
14 at penalty, that's what it could affect.
15 MR. BOCK: I understand you say that
16 it could affect, but we are talking about fairly
17 minimal dollar differences. How specifically do
18 you see that that should turn our decision-
19 making one way or the other?
20 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Hit your
21 button, please.
22 MR. SMRT: It doesn't affect whether
23 Allegation 1 is a Level I or not. We just
24 believe that in fairness to the process that we
25 have come so far, and we have acknowledged based
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1 upon her general statements that many of the 1 opportunity to review every page of the journal,
2 value differences relate to the journals and, 2 though, as we went through. The pages were pre
3 frankly, we got jerked around on the journals 3 tabbed as Chuck indicated, but we were told
4 and we don't think you should use the journals. 4 those were the pages that dealt with any of the
5 So, I guess that's our guiding principle on the 5 shows or sex acts that occurred at the
6 values. But does it affect whether 1 is Level 6 University of Louisville or at the local hotels.
7 I, no. 7 But we weren't able to view the other pages
8 MR. BOCK: Thank you. 8 within the journal to know that there was
9 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr. 9 information in these journals that weren't
10 Parkinson. 10 relevant to our investigation that involved
11 MR. PARKINSON: Mr. Smrt, you just 11 shows or other things outside of our
12 mentioned that you got jerked around on the 12 investigation.
13 journals. Mr. Leffler went through -- he 13 MR. PARKINSON: Mr. Smrt, did you have
14 described the process, and I think he said you 14 the same opportunity?
15 were there during that process. You obviously 15 MR. SMRT: We had about 15 minutes.
16 must disagree with the way he described it. And 16 We were told we would have access to the
17 if you do, can you explain what your 17 journals later, and Mark and I went through and
18 disagreement is? 18 looked at the tabbed pages and took photographs
19 MR. SMRT: I don't know if I disagree 19 of the tabbed pages.
20 to any great extent what Nate said. The only 20 Did we had an opportunity? I don't
21 thing would be we did not -- we did not turn 21 know if we had the opportunity to read -- we had
22 every page. My recollection is they were the 22 a very limited time opportunity. We went to the
23 pages -- we were told the pages that relate to 23 pages that we were told here's Louisville,
24 Louisville are tabbed and we went to those 24 that's the pertinent information for your
25 tabbed pages. 25 review.
Page 83 Page 85
1 I don't have a recollection, and it 1 MR. DUNCAN: Mr. Parkinson, I think
2 was Mark and I actually who were actually going 2 it's also important to note that we, the
3 through the journals, and my recollection was we 3 enforcement staff, didn't see anything or have
4 were told go to the tabbed pages because those 4 access to anything that the institution didn't
5 pages concern Louisville. When the Courier 5 also see and have access to.
6 Journal had access to it, they found another 6 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr.
7 page evidently, based upon the newspaper 7 Christopher.
8 article, that was something that we didn't see 8 MR. CHRISTOPHER: I have a couple of
9 that day. 9 questions about Andre McGee. The record
10 MR. PARKINSON: Thanks. And I guess I 10 indicates January 10 is when he was hired as a
11 will turn to Mr. Leffler because that 11 program assistant, and then promoted to Director
12 description is a lot different than his 12 of Operations in 2012. Did he have any role
13 description. And there is quite a lot in the 13 other than those two roles while he was at
14 papers about trying to discredit the journals 14 Louisville?
15 because the pages were already tabbed and, 15 MR. PITINO: Academic roles are you
16 therefore, it was self-selected presumably by 16 alluding to?
17 Katina Powell before any of you guys ever got 17 MR. CHRISTOPHER: More specifically,
18 there. And I was a little bit surprised, having 18 are those the two positions that he held?
19 heard that description, to hear what Mr. Leffler 19 MR. PITINO: Yes.
20 was describing, which is you-all as a group were 20 MR. CHRISTOPHER: And did any of
21 walking through the journal with them and 21 those, either one of those positions include
22 tabbing the pages that were relevant as you were 22 recruiting in any way, shape or form?
23 doing it. That's a pretty big difference. 23 MR. PITINO: That's probably the most
24 MR. STROTHKAMP: The pages were tabbed 24 misleading thing about the whole scenario of
25 by Katina Powell's attorney. We did have the 25 what has gone on. Andre McGee had no role in
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1 recruiting except to make sure that -- he was 1 your view of it as well?
2 not in charge of any form of entertainment. 2 MR. LEFFLER: Yes. The one student-
3 That was the student host and the assistant 3 athlete that represented that Andre McGee was
4 coaches. We had the same routine of every 4 part of the home visit was Kevin Ware, and that
5 recruit. 5 may correspond with the time period that--
6 Andre McGee did this on his own, 6 Kevin Ware was the one student-athlete that
7 behind the cloak of darkness, and he had no role 7 reported that Andre McGee visited him during a
8 in that. That wasn't his -- as an operations 8 home visit.
9 guy, he was supposed to get them up in the 9 MR. CHRISTOPHER: This is probably for
10 morning, get them to breakfast, get them to 10 Mr. Smrt. Could you expand on, this is a Level
11 where they needed to go for the assistant 11 I allegation but each subpart if Level III.
12 coaches and the head coaches and their parents 12 That hasn't really been touched on verbally.
13 to meet. This was not his responsibility 13 It's woven through a little bit of the record.
14 whatsoever. 14 MR. SMRT: I think we go in greater
15 MR. CHRISTOPHER: So, he would be part 15 detail in our response about it, but our belief
16 of the execution of recruiting for on-campus 16 is that overall Allegation 1 is a Level 1. Each
17 visits? 17 of the individual subparagraphs are Level III
18 MR. PITINO: He would get them up in 18 based upon the value.
19 the morning, drive them to breakfast, would not 19 If you look at the largest per athlete,
20 stay. We would meet with the parents. If we 20 the largest is about $485. And there are many
21 went to a football game, he would arrange the 21 routinely Level III violations are processed
22 tickets to get them into the football game. But 22 through RSRO at a much higher value. Yes, so
23 his responsibility -- not one meeting did we 23 our position is based upon the value of the
24 ever ask Andre McGee in terms of did we have a 24 benefit.
25 great shot at this play? We would always talk 25 MR. CHRISTOPHER: So, it should be
Page 87 Page 89
1 to Kevin Keatts, Wyking Jones, they were the 1 based on the value, not necessarily the act?
2 ones responsible for recruiting. Andre McGee 2 MR. SMRT: I guess, and maybe Chris
3 was the logistics person. 3 Strobel can address this, but I think that's the
4 MR. CHRISTOPHER: So related to McGee, 4 way it is routinely in RSRO. And I don't have it
5 I know it's at least one, if nor more interviews 5 in front of me, but there was a case recently
6 with the student-athletes, there was some 6 where a booster bought booze for a bunch of
7 conversation that he was on recruiting visits. 7 athletes over an 18-month period and it was
8 MR. PITINO: Well, there was one 8 processed as secondary. Does that go to the
9 period, I am not exactly sure of the time, where 9 core of the Collegiate Model? You know, maybe
10 one of our assistants -- 10 it does, I don't know. I mean is buying booze
11 MR. CARNS: There was, I think. one or 11 compared to a dance?
12 two occasions where we had a switch, a coaching 12 I mean, I just don't know if
13 change, and he was per the legislation 13 enforcement wants to get into the sex, a dance,
14 temporarily put into that position, so he may 14 an offer of a sexual act is always Level I, and
15 have been recruiting during that time when he 15 what is your normalizer? And I think in the
16 was basically in that position temporarily until 16 past the normalizer has been the value. And
17 we hired a full-time assistant. 17 then you can get into ethics and morals and all
18 MR. CHRISTOPHER: Okay. So he did 18 that.
19 have more than the two positions? 19 I think in the past it's been the
20 MR. PITINO: For a short period of 20 practice of the enforcement staff is the
21 time, yes. I am trying to think of who-- 21 normalizer is the value of the benefit, and
22 whether it was Ralph Willitz health, he had a 22 that's been our position and that's why we came
23 mild heart problem and Andre was put into it, 23 out you have 15 Level IIIs that gets you to a
24 but it was a very short interval of time. 24 Level I.
25 MR. CHRISTOPHER: Mr. Leffler, is that 25 MR. CHRISTOPHER: So, for the staff,
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1 is the dollar value the normalizer?
2 MR. LEFFLER: It plays a role but it
3 is not the sole factor. We do look at the act
4 itself and what the conduct is, and there is no
5 set bar or threshold in terms of dollar value as
6 to when something moves from a Level III to a
7 Level II or to a Level I. It is entirely
8 dependent upon the act.
9 So you will see within RSRO some
10 fairly high dollar values that have been
11 processed as Level III, but it's the type of
12 violation that allows for that. There are some
13 lower dollar values that have been processed as
14 Level I or Level II based on the type of
15 conduct. So it's, I guess, maybe a sliding
16 scale even though we aren't that sophisticated
17 with it.
18 We do not agree that this is a series
19 of Level III violations that equates to a Level
20 I. We did not break it down like that. To us
21 Allegation 1 is just Level I and we are dealing
22 with the entire spectrum of everything included
23 in there.
24 Is that to say there is not one of
25 these that if it was the only thing that
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1 happened would be processed Level III? I don't
2 know that we would say that. But generally
3 speaking, the type of conduct, given the dollar
4 value here, would elevate it beyond a Level III
5 in most of these subparagraphs.
6 MR. DUNCAN: I would also add to that,
7 the definitions of Level I, Level II and Level
8 III are legislated in Article XIX, Bylaw 19.1,
9 and they focus on the impact of the Collegiate
10 Model. They focus on recruiting inducements.
11 They focus on the impact of the game.
12 Noticeably absent from the definition, and by
13 design, there is no reference to dollar figures
14 in the definitions.
15 MR. SMRT: I might add, to piggyback
16 on what Jon said, I think the definition is an
17 attempt at a substantial recruiting or extra
18 benefit advantage. Again, if an athlete's in a
19 room for five minutes when someone's dancing in
20 a dark room with four other athletes, is that a
21 substantial extra benefit? Is that a
22 substantial recruiting advantage?
23 If you are going to get into
24 identifying each one, I would say that that
25 template also has to be placed on each of these
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1 situations because that's the definition of a
2 Level I.
3 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
4 I think Mr. Hill has a question.
5 MR. HILL: In reading the information,
6 I am curious if someone could walk me through
7 what changes have been made in Minardi Hall to
8 prevent something like this from happening in
9 the future.
10 MR. SMRT: I will start off a couple
11 and then maybe John Carns can add to that.
12 First of all, one of the things that
13 we have done is that before a prospect would
14 stay in Minardi Hall, the unofficial visit form
15 has been expanded to include who that person is
16 staying with and in what room so there is more
17 accountability on the unofficial visit.
18 I guess probably one of the -- how did
19 the dancers get in? Well, there was that exit,
20 there was that fire-alarmed door that McGee as
21 the Director of Ops had a key to that could
22 disarm it. That key has been taken away from
23 the basketball staff at Minardi, so that's
24 another thing that I would say reduces the
25 likelihood of something like this occurring
Page 93
1 again.
2 There is a hand sensor, and that was
3 implemented toward the end of the allegations,
4 that the hand sensor at Minardi. Minardi now
5 has more security than the other dorms primarily
6 related to the hand sensor.
7 So those are three things that jump
8 out at me, but I will let John, see if he has
9 any additional comments.
10 MR. CARNS: I think one of the other
11 significant things going forward now is in the
12 past Minardi had been managed by an outside
13 group called EDR, and starting, I think, July
14 1st they are coming back under Housing, so our
15 Housing Office on campus will have control of
16 the dorm, will have responsibility for all of
17 that, including security and everything else.
18 So, obviously with the issues here, there is a
19 heightened awareness and, you know, they are
20 taking that -- I know our Housing staff is
21 taking that very seriously moving forward with
22 not just this dorm but all our dorms on campus.
23 MR. HILL: EDR was not responsible to
24 anyone prior to this?
25 MR. CARNS: Yes, they were responsible
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1 to Housing in terms of, you know, the policies 1 of the access to the side door, the changing of
2 and those things. I was just simply making the 2 the sign-in process and working with the
3 point that I think having Housing, you know, 3 security guards, how would that have changed the
4 managing, responsible for security, you know, it 4 conduct that occurred in this case? Let me just
5 will be a more consistent process with the rest 5 start with that.
6 of the housing on campus. 6 MR. SMRT: This is not a lack of
7 MR. HILL: But Housing was already 7 education. McGee didn't misinterpret something,
8 responsible for it, am I missing that? 8 so he intentionally went out and did this. It
9 MR. CARNS: Responsible for? 9 was easier for him -- Powell says the dancers
10 MR. HILL: For EDR and everybody else 10 sometimes came in the front and sometimes the
11 who was working in the residence hall. 11 side. Okay. So how did they get in the side?
12 MR. CARNS: Yes, they had general 12 We believe they could have got in the side by
13 oversight, yes. 13 that door being disalarmed, if that's the right
14 MR. HILL: Responsible, okay. That's 14 word, because he had a key to do that.
15 what I meant. Is the signing in associated with 15 Now, if he didn't have that key, then
16 someone in a room a change? As I read the 16 the alarm would have gone off, the security
17 regulations, that was supposed to be happening 17 guard might have noticed it, and so that's the
18 anyway. Is that a change? I am maybe missing 18 reason why that change appears to be
19 that. 19 significant.
20 MR. SMRT: The difference is the 20 MR. BOCK: I guess I will ask this of
21 detail. All along a guest signed in. What I 21 Mr. Pitino. How are individuals chosen to serve
22 alluded to was the unofficial visit form that's 22 as hosts for recruits?
23 filled out by the staff. On the unofficial 23 MR. PITINO: Well, it varies. What we
24 visit form previously would have the location of 24 try and do is, most of the time, if he has a
25 their lodging, it said Minardi. That unofficial 25 back-court player from a certain area and
Page 95 Page 97
1 visit form now would indicate Minardi, room 1 someone is from a certain area as well and he
2 number so and so with so and so. So, that's 2 possibly knew him from high school, we try to
3 what's been added to that form 3 put them together.
4 The sign-in procedures changed during 4 The more personable ones who enjoy
5 the course of the four years, but the sign-in 5 doing it, like Mangkok Mathiang or Peyton Siva
6 procedure today is not different than it was a 6 who have terrific personalities and are great
7 year or two ago, no. It's the unofficial visit 7 salesmen of the school, we choose them that way.
8 form that I was alluding to. 8 But sometimes we would not take a senior and put
9 MR. HILL: For University process it 9 them with a high school person because he is
10 doesn't matter who it is, unofficial or 10 going to be gone and they would have very little
11 official, it doesn't matter, that process should 11 in common.
12 be there anyway; is that correct? 12 We try to just match it up based on
13 MR. SMRT: And what process are you 13 whether they would play together or whether they
14 talking about? 14 have similar type personalities.
15 MR. HILL: The sign-in process for the 15 MR. BOCK: Coach, one of the questions
16 residence halls. 16 that that raises for me is that there is nothing
17 MR. SMRT: That always has been in 17 in terms of the character ethics of the host
18 existence, yes. 18 that was addressed in your response. How is
19 MR. HILL: And official or unofficial 19 that aspect of providing an experience for a 17
20 has nothing to do with that? 20 year old on campus addressed to ensure that
21 MR. SMRT: For the sign in when you 21 these 17 year olds are coming in from out of
22 come into the dorm, that's correct. 22 high school aren't exposed to things that they
23 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead, 23 shouldn't be and that their parents wouldn't
24 Mr. Bock. 24 want them to be?
25 MR. BOCK: Thank you. So the changing 25 MR. PITINO: Well, the education that
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1 our players get is, I believe, over the top. We
2 educate them on -- from the first week that they
3 arrive, we educate them on the treatment of
4 women, the lack of tolerance for drug use. We
5 talk about anybody who comes on campus, we talk
6 about how they treat professors. We talk about
7 the way they leave electronics off in the
8 classroom. We take it from A to Z of how you
9 should act.
10 The University of Louisville
11 basketball team, although we have said this
12 many, many times, this is a despicable act. My
13 nephews lived in Minardi Hall, along with all my
14 managers, and I tell all of them if you see
15 anything wrong at all, if you don't want to tell
16 me, tell the assistant coaches.
17 The first thing I did when this all
18 broke, and I was told to stop interviewing
19 people, the first thing I did when this broke is
20 I went to my nephews and said you mean to tell
21 me you never saw one single thing in the years
22 you were there? In your manager ability you
23 never saw one thing? They said, Uncle Rick,
24 there were a lot of girls going through that
25 dormitory just like any other dormitory, we
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1 never saw or heard of anything.
2 No social media. We followed all of
3 it, all the social media. Not one person in
4 four years, this is the most mind boggling thing
5 to me of all of it, Not one recruit would go
6 home, tell a friend and it would leak out what
7 had happened. I can't fathom how that could
8 happen at all.
9 So, we do everything possible to make
10 sure that the young man is monitored while he is
11 on campus to make sure. And the next day when I
12 had breakfast with them and the families, what
13 did you like about the place? What did you like
14 about our practice? What did you like about our
15 players? Did you identify any with them about
16 our style of play, our discipline?
17 Because I lose a lot of basketball
18 players because they say it's too much
19 discipline, it's too regimented, and he is too
20 tough on you. So I lose a lot of players.
21 These athletes are not like Kentucky's athletes
22 where they are one and done. I haven't had a
23 one and done basketball player.
24 So we have terrific young men and we
25 have a rogue assistant. I have had 31 assistant
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1 coaches, probably five times more than Coach
2 Carns and Coach Williams combined, go on to
3 become head coaches. I have four players that
4 played for me who are head coaches today in the
5 pros. They are all wonderful people with great
6 integrity, great integrity. Trustworthy,
7 understand the rules, and I have one comment
8 that I make when I hire each and every assistant
9 coach. If you knowingly break any rule at all,
10 you are finished in this business.
11 Andre McGee was a rogue. Why he did
12 it, I will never know to this day because it
13 wasn't a recruiting advantage, it was a
14 recruiting disadvantage what he did. There is
15 not any sane player that would want to go to
16 that school at all because they are going to get
17 in trouble. I am not going to that school.
18 So he is a rogue assistant. The other
19 31 I am extremely proud of. We had everything
20 in place to show a young man the right time, and
21 he disobeyed everything that we believe in. And
22 he knew better because he played for me.
23 MR. BOCK: Mr. Pitino, I appreciate
24 that and these are emotional circumstances. And
25 it's important to hear your perspective and your
Page 101
1 background. But I want to ask a few very
2 precise questions and try to get fairly precise
3 answers.
4 So, the question I asked was, what was
5 done to select individuals that had a proper
6 character to carry out the task of chaperoning
7 17 year old high school students, and you told
8 me that they were educated. But what was done
9 to ensure that these chaperones, the hosts, were
10 individuals of good character?
11 What sort of investigation into their
12 background was done beyond the checking of
13 social media that you mentioned and what, if
14 any, changes have been made in terms of
15 increasing the monitoring of the recruits
16 between 10:00 p.m. and, say, 8:00 a.m.?
17 MR. PITINO: Well, we have quality
18 people on our basketball team, and the one thing
19 I do when I meet with our hosts, who are going
20 to host the recruit beforehand, and I say he is
21 not 21, make sure you go nowhere near Fourth
22 Street and bars. Make sure if you go to a party
23 you watch over him.
24 We totally -- because we know the one
25 change that we have made in recruiting is I have
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1 a reputation I will not deal with agents or AAU
2 coaches in recruiting or shoe companies, I want
3 no part of any of that.
4 I am totally against it, and they are
5 heavily involved in recruiting today. I won't
6 have anything to do with it, and it probably
7 cuts about 50 percent of my recruiting base off
8 because of that.
9 The one change that we made
10 dramatically is we are recruiting and really,
11 really spending a lot of time into the
12 background of every young athlete we recruit.
13 Peyton Siva was mentioned earlier, alluded to.
14 He is one of the finest young men I have ever
15 encountered in my 41 years of coaching.
16 If he says he was in there for five
17 minutes, he was in there for five minutes. I
18 would not take her word on anything personally
19 myself, and I don't even know the lady. But she
20 to me is the most uncredible person I have ever
21 come across in my lifetime.
22 So, Peyton Siva is what every athlete
23 should be all about. He is a wonderful,
24 wonderful man with great character, great moral
25 fiber. He is a great father today, and we try
Page 103
1 to hook up recruits with people like Peyton
2 Siva. But more important, we are going
3 overboard on the background of every young man
4 because of what happened, every young man that
5 we bring in. And if there is someone that we
6 feel has gone through some tough times but just
7 needs mentoring, we will certainly take that
8 young man and we have, but we will obviously pay
9 much more attention to every little detail.
10 I wish somehow, some way, someone
11 would have come to me and leaked, or to one of
12 my assistant coaches, went to somebody, a
13 manager, we have ten managers, somebody tell us
14 something, and they all swear to me they didn't
15 see any single thing. Then I was told to stop
16 investigating completely.
17 MR. BOCK: Who is the individual on
18 your staff who is in charge of deciding which
19 chaperones host which recruit?
20 MR. PITINO: We talk about that. We
21 talk about that with each recruit coming in, who
22 would fit in. As I alluded to earlier, we try
23 to keep seniors away unless it fits from the
24 same area. Like Mangkok Mathiang's from
25 Australia, Dan O'Dell comes in, he is from
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1 Australia, we would put that person with them.
2 But just about every person that we
3 put with, we trust that person. He knows the
4 rules, he knows what not to do, he knows to stay
5 out of bars, he knows to stay on campus, do the
6 right things.
7 MR. BOCK: And so if I understand your
8 responses, is it fair to say that there is no
9 system in place in terms of a written procedure
10 or a particular system of background checks and
11 evaluation of hosts, number one, and, number
12 two, there is been no change in the practices of
13 the University for monitoring recruits when they
14 are on campus and particularly in the evening
15 hours from 10:00 p.m. on?
16 MR. TOMPSETT: Mr. Bock, I want to
17 clarify. When you say "background checks", can
18 you explain? Are you talking about police
19 background checks or what type of background
20 checks are you talking about?
21 MR. BOCK: I cut you off, and I am
22 sorry. Go ahead.
23 MR. TOMPSETT: Explain, you know,
24 where I am going at with this because Coach
25 Pitino, and I think any coach in the recruiting
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1 process, which Coach Pitino takes very
2 seriously, he is not trying to just recruit
3 quality basketball players, he is trying to
4 recruit quality young men.
5 And I think he can talk to you about
6 how in the recruiting process he is doing a
7 background check not just with the young men
8 that he is recruiting, but also their family to
9 make sure that he is recruiting quality young
10 men to the program.
11 So, if you are talking about a more
12 formal background check than that, is the
13 University doing some type of a police
14 background check where they, you know, have the
15 young man fill out an application, I don't know
16 as all that's being done, but if you can specify
17 the type of background check, I think that would
18 help us answer your question.
19 MR. BOCK: Sure. The conduct here
20 occurred over a four-year period. It occurred
21 on campus with peer-to-peer contact. And so
22 this sort of review of an individual's
23 background that I think would be most relevant
24 would be interviews and monitoring of that
25 individual while they are on campus after they
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1 come to the University to understand what sort
2 of character they've exhibited while they've
3 been on campus. Is there a process in place to
4 evaluate that aspect?
5 MR. TOMPSETT: There certainly is
6 monitoring, and I have a lengthy presentation
7 for that when we get to Allegation 4. I would
8 take issue with one thing that you said that
9 these violations occurred as a result of peer-
10 to-peer contact.
11 I would say this. The violations in
12 this case did not happen because student hosts
13 had poor character. That's not why they
14 happened. They happened because the adult in
15 the situation, Andre McGee, had poor character.
16 I think it's a fair question to ask, you know,
17 why didn't student hosts bring this information
18 forward and we can talk about that a lot.
19 But I think I would disagree with the
20 premise of your question, which is that the
21 focus should be on the student hosts as opposed
22 to Mr. McGee.
23 I would also add you started off your
24 question by saying that there was nothing in our
25 response, if I heard you correctly, about ethics
Page 107
1 or teaching ethics to the young men. Perhaps I
2 misunderstood. I would just point out I think
3 there is information throughout the
4 investigative record, and we have included some
5 of it in our response, that Coach Pitino
6 regularly spoke to his team about ethics, about
7 how to conduct themselves, about life lessons to
8 try to teach them how to be responsible young
9 men.
10 And I point that out, there is two
11 places in our initial response. At Page 43,
12 although Coach Pitino wasn't charged with
13 failure to promote an atmosphere of compliance,
14 we thought it was important that you knew
15 exactly what he did to promote an atmosphere of
16 compliance, and we laid out some of those things
17 beginning at Page 42 in some bullet points and
18 continuing over to Page 43. And the last bullet
19 point on Page 43 says that "Coach Pitino meets
20 regularly with his student-athletes to
21 communicate not only his expectations that they
22 comply with NCAA rules and stay away from third
23 parties, such as boosters, agents and runners,
24 but also to teach them life lessons about the
25 importance of treating women with respect and
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1 avoiding drugs and alcohol."
2 And at Page 4-26, one of Coach
3 Pitino's four-year players, Russ Smith, who was
4 coincidentally on the team the entire four years
5 that this went on, and he was the team Captain
6 his senior year, Mr. Leffler asked him,
7 "Describe for us how Coach Pitino ran the
8 program when you played for him."
9 Smith said, "Coach was strict as hell
10 but Coach was strict. He issued curfews. We had
11 to get up early a lot. And he preached. He
12 preached ego, humility. He preached a lot of
13 stuff and he was honest with his stuff, too.
14 Way older stuff that had gone on. So it wasn't
15 like he was trying to be hypocritical and stuff
16 because he told us everything that he did and
17 how he embarrassed his family and so on. So he
18 never wanted the same for any of us."
19 I think that speaks a lot about Coach
20 Pitino's efforts to try to teach these young
21 men, not just to be good basketball players, but
22 how to be responsible citizens and how to
23 transition and be responsible and ethical young
24 men.
25 MR. BOCK: I appreciate that, Mr.
Page 109
1 Tompsett, and it's important to be a good
2 teacher, but that wasn't the question given the
3 issues today relate to the University's
4 monitoring of its employees and the coach's
5 monitoring of his subordinates.
6 The questions were directed at
7 whether, and to give the institution the
8 opportunity to address, whether it's made any
9 changes in its monitoring practices to provide
10 additional assurance that this sort of conduct
11 which generally occurred in the evening hours
12 where there were only peers or younger people,
13 students involved that could report the conduct,
14 to give the University the opportunity to
15 address whether any changes have been made to
16 make those events less likely to occur. That
17 was the focus of my questions.
18 MR. PITINO: The one thing I will say
19 on that is I met with the team as well as all
20 managers, and I said to the team it is your
21 responsibility in your University, if you see
22 something happen the wrong way, you are not
23 ratting out on your teammate, you are not
24 ratting out anyone at all. It's your
25 responsibility to come forward and put a top to
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1 any wrongdoing in a dormitory, on the team.
2 And these young men today, the people
3 that were involved, some of them are high
4 character people, and they were led astray by
5 the wrong leadership. But we do have high
6 character people. Some of the finest people I
7 have met and coached were on that basketball
8 team and some were even involved.
9 I heard the name Jared Schwatzier
10 involved. I can assure you Jared Schwatzier in
11 my estimation was not involved in that.
12 So we educate our people. I talk
13 about every single day for 10 to 15 minutes with
14 my basketball team. It will vary. It's more
15 than just drugs and alcohol. It's more than
16 just treating women. One team, they were
17 interested in the stock market, I had them take
18 part of their PELL Grant and invest $100,000,
19 open up an Ameritrade account, and I taught them
20 all about the stock market and what it means.
21 So every single day outside of the
22 basketball lives, I go over something. These
23 players know exactly what's right and what's
24 wrong, and they did know that what they did was
25 wrong, because the student host was educated and
Page 111
1 he knew right from wrong and he knew what to do.
2 So, we will continue to do that from an
3 educational standpoint. It's no different than
4 having children and educating our own kids.
5 MR. BOCK: But you would agree that in
6 this case, education wasn't sufficient to
7 prevent the problem from occurring?
8 MR. PITINO: No, I would have to
9 disagree with that, because, you know, Jamie
10 Diamond said something interesting with J.P.
11 Morgan because he is probably the most respected
12 man on Wall Street today, a few of his top
13 people almost took down J.P. Morgan with inside
14 trading. They said to him were your people not
15 educated on doing the right things? He said
16 they are more than educated but they did the
17 wrong things.
18 And Andre McGee played for me, he knew
19 how important Billy Minardi Hall was to me. He
20 knew how important doing the right thing was to
21 me. He got the break of a lifetime from being
22 cut from a pro team to starting out his career.
23 He could have been one of those 32 to become
24 head coaches and have a great lifestyle for his
25 family instead of ending up in disgrace. He
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1 knew right from wrong. He was totally educated.
2 He knew that that was the wrong thing and for
3 some bizarre reason, unbeknownst to any of us,
4 he acted that way.
5 So, we will continue to educate them
6 on a daily basis of doing the right things and
7 being accountable. This young generation today
8 just has a very difficult time coming forward
9 and bucking the trend and saying that this is
10 wrong.
11 MR. SMRT: I might follow up on that,
12 Mr. Bock. Regarding the student hosts, again
13 talking generally, student hosts often dropped
14 the prospect off at Minardi and then sometimes
15 that student host left or sometimes that student
16 host went back to their room. So, we have not
17 insinuated that the student host on each
18 situation had knowledge of this. We believe
19 there are several situations student hosts did
20 not know.
21 Again, just generally speaking, it
22 appeared that McGee told the -- this was for
23 prospects, it wasn't for the athletes. So we
24 would not agree that each of these situations,
25 the student host knew what was going on.
Page 113
1 As far as what actions were taken, I
2 would refer you to our corrective actions
3 section within there where we talk about
4 additional training that has gone on by two
5 outside entities that have come in to the
6 institution recently. And, again, this was an
7 action by an individual who was placed in there
8 for the sole purpose of monitoring what was
9 going on. And we have individuals that remain
10 in there for that purpose.
11 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Hill
12 and then Mr. Novak.
13 MR. HILL: One clarification. You
14 talked about the host dropping them off and
15 going away. Did all the athletes, basketball
16 players, live in Minardi Hall?
17 MR. SMRT: Yes. All the athletes--
18 Minardi is composed of all men's basketball, has
19 been some managers, and then there is non-
20 basketball. And again my comment about student
21 hosts, without going into each specific
22 situation, for the most part, a student-athlete
23 was not in there because again the enforcement
24 staff would have alleged that obviously because
25 that would have been an extra benefit. You see
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1 student-athletes involved in two of the
2 situations.
3 MR. HILL: When you say "in there,"
4 are you talking about in the room where the
5 dancing and other things took place, they were
6 in Minardi Hall, though?
7 MR. SMRT: I can't tell you on each
8 situation whether the student host was in
9 Minardi. Again, there are some athletes that
10 told us that they left Minardi, that they
11 weren't there after they dropped them off. So I
12 don't think we have enough information to tell
13 you that. I think we have some information that
14 the host dropped them off and left. I assume
15 that there were some hosts that were still there
16 when the activity was going on.
17 But I didn't want to leave the
18 impression that it was somehow a student host
19 drops them off and says okay, it's party time.
20 The host may not have known it was going on at
21 that time. I just don't know.
22 MR. HILL: That's fair, I appreciate
23 that. Coach, a quick question of clarification
24 for me. You talked about your nephews and being
25 managers and living there. As I read the
Page 115
1 information, I may have missed something and I
2 need you to help me with this.
3 It seemed to have been the practice
4 that when recruits came in, that somebody gave
5 up a room and left. So, I could see if your
6 nephew was one of those individuals, he wouldn't
7 have anything to say to you because he wasn't
8 there, which really defeats the purpose to Mr.
9 Smrt's point about having people there.
10 Can somebody talk about that? It
11 seems like the practice was to vacate a room to
12 make a room available for those activities. You
13 had to vacate somebody's room. And that seems
14 to have been the practice, and that would put a
15 manager in a position, quite frankly, to
16 truthfully say to you I didn't hear or see
17 anything because I wasn't there, which defeats
18 the purpose. Can somebody help?
19 MR. PITINO: Well, my nephews never
20 vacated one of their rooms. We never used their
21 rooms. But a manager from time to time would
22 give up their room. But there were still 10 or
23 11 other managers still there, and he would stay
24 with someone else.
25 So, there was never a point where that
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1 person who gave up that room. In one instance,
2 "Cat" Barber situation, he gave up his room to
3 that person. It was never my nephews, and there
4 were still nine or ten managers always present
5 and that other manager was probably still in the
6 dorm.
7 MR. HILL: Over a four-year period,
8 did anyone think it was kind of odd that every
9 time the recruits come, that at least somebody
10 who was there to monitor would give up a room?
11 Did that ever rise to a level to raise a
12 question in somebody's mind?
13 MR. SMRT: I don't think so, because
14 you are talking about college students, you are
15 talking about 40 some college students who some
16 go home on weekends and some don't come home on
17 a weekend night and, as we learned, some spend
18 many nights with their girlfriends.
19 So, McGee had a very good
20 understanding who was going to be there that
21 night and McGee would be the one that then, we
22 believe, would say, you know, Prospect X, you
23 are staying in Room 119 because he knew that the
24 person wasn't going to be there.
25 Remember, this activity occurred both
Page 117
1 on official and unofficial, and so it might have
2 been even a little more formalized on the
3 official, but McGee had an understanding, we
4 believe, of who was going to be there and who
5 wasn't going to be there. And you have a lot of
6 college students who aren't there one night.
7 MR. HILL: I do understand that. But
8 the purpose of them being there was to provide
9 security, and you can't provide security if you
10 are not there.
11 MR. SMRT: I don't think the student-
12 athletes have responsibility for security. You
13 had a live-in RA. Remember, there was someone
14 hired by EDR who was -- the RA who lived there.
15 You had security at the front desk, you had
16 cameras, you had an armed exit door. It wasn't
17 the student-athlete's -- the student-athletes
18 who knew of this should have come forward.
19 There is no doubt about it.
20 Did every athlete know? No. And we
21 are going to talk about that in 4 in a little
22 bit. But I don't think it was our position that
23 the student hosts were the ones that were
24 supposed to have been supervising the security
25 of it. If an athlete came on an unofficial
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1 visit, he wasn't assigned a student host
2 necessarily. On an official visit, it's a
3 little more formal, you get the entertainment
4 money, et cetera. On an unofficial visit, you
5 may not necessarily be assigned, but McGee would
6 have been the one who would have said I know X
7 is not going to be here tonight, stay in X's
8 room.
9 MR. PITINO: If I can clarify one
10 thing. Let me give you an example of a typical
11 recruit coming in. So, it's a football weekend.
12 Generally we try to get them in for a football
13 weekend. So, he comes in on a Friday, he would
14 watch individual instruction. Individual
15 instruction is I will take four of you between
16 9:00 and 9:45 and put you through offensive
17 drills. Then you can watch 10:00 to 10:45 the
18 same thing.
19 Then they would tour campus from like
20 11:00 to 12:00 o'clock, have lunch from 12:00 to
21 1:00. Come back, we give them a tour of where
22 we play our games. They would meet with the
23 academic advisor from 2:00 to 3:00. They would
24 watch regular practice. We would have dinner
25 with them and their families, then the student
Page 119
1 host would leave probably about 8:30, 9:00
2 o'clock and take them back to where they were
3 going.
4 The next morning they would wake up
5 early, we would have breakfast. We would have a
6 team tailgate for the football game. We would
7 probably have an afternoon practice. So, our
8 recruiting visits, almost every minute of the
9 day with the exception of late at night is
10 locked in with something to do. So, the
11 monitoring is almost every minute of the day.
12 They don't have any downtime where they could
13 stray away from what we want them to be
14 partaking.
15 MR. HILL: And I will end my comments
16 with this. The critical part is that late
17 night, that after hours part. I am not hearing
18 anything change. So, this could happen again,
19 what's turning in my head.
20 And to the point about the student
21 hosts, I really wasn't referring as much to the
22 student hosts as I was to the managers and the
23 others, because somewhere in this language it
24 said that it provided a good advantage for the
25 Athletic Department to have the athletes
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1 together in one place and that kind of thing,
2 and that there were Athletic Department staff
3 that was there to provide some of that. And if
4 they are giving up their rooms, they are not
5 there. That's the only point I was going to
6 make and I will rest that.
7 MR. SMRT: Could it happen again?
8 What has been, I think, a very significant
9 change is what I mentioned earlier. If they were
10 coming in through the side door and a staff
11 member had a key and he can't do that anymore.
12 If you stay overnight now, effective
13 with the change in policy recently, the RA in
14 Minardi must approve that. So I didn't mention
15 that to you as another recent change. But not
16 only is the unofficial visit form different, if
17 a prospect comes in with the OPS person who
18 lives in Minardi now, they still sign in like
19 they normally do. But the unofficial visit form
20 has them listed what room they are going to and
21 the RA must sign off. That wasn't the policy,
22 it wasn't the requirement at the time, so that
23 would be another item I would have mentioned to
24 you.
25 MR. HILL: Will the prosect be able to
Page 121
1 have a single room anymore?
2 MR. PITINO: You do know that when the
3 manager gives up his room, on the other side is
4 another manager or another player. There is two
5 people in every room.
6 MR. HILL: There are no singles?
7 MR. PITINO: There is two rooms in the
8 whole place. Andre McGee had one of those rooms
9 and the other room goes to the other GA.
10 MR. JURICH: Mr. Hill, I hope I can
11 answer your question. And I will tell you, the
12 thing that comforts me the most when I go to bed
13 at night, put my head on the pillow, why this
14 won't happen again is because what the hell we
15 have been through for the last 20 months, okay,
16 and the awareness on this campus, and people
17 seeing the heartbroken of our fans and our
18 faculty and our staff and our Presidents and our
19 coaches, what they've been through. It's been
20 pure hell.
21 I can guarantee you, and I will put my
22 life on it, that this will never happen again in
23 our basketball program.
24 We have gone to great precautions to
25 make everything the right way, but I will tell
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1 you what, we thought we had everything done the
2 right way. We trusted this guy, I trusted,
3 forget what Coach says, I trusted this kid. He
4 was one of our best. And to this day, the one
5 thing I regret more than anything is I have
6 never been able to talk to him, and I honored
7 their rules over there because it shakes me up.
8 But I can assure you this won't happen again.
9 MR. TOMPSETT: I just want to clarify,
10 Mr. Hill. Unless I missed something in the
11 record, student managers I don't think have any
12 assigned responsibility for monitoring dorm
13 security. Student managers, what we are talking
14 about, are undergraduate students who, you know,
15 do the laundry and shag balls with basketball
16 teams.
17 The ones who were assigned to keep an
18 eye on the dorm are the adults. One of them was
19 Andre McGee. I believe there was a video
20 coordinator --
21 MR. PITINO: It changes. The assistant
22 video person at one time was Logan Ballman, now
23 it's Pat Riley.
24 MR. TOMPSETT: But it's the adults.
25 It's Andre McGee, it's the video coordinator,
Page 123
1 it's the other people who have the title of
2 either graduate assistant or program manager,
3 but I don't think it's correct to say that a
4 student manager had any responsibility or
5 assigned responsibility for dorm security.
6 MR. PITINO: You know, this year my
7 team really complained to me that I had too many
8 curfews. I was giving them curfew almost every
9 single night during the season, and they had a
10 major problem with that.
11 And I said, look, guys, we have gone
12 through so much hell in the last 14, 16 months,
13 you have to bear with me right now. I wouldn't
14 allow them to have visitation, totally against
15 every other dorm on campus. I said we have got
16 to get through this period and we can have no
17 mishaps, and I need to investigate every little
18 thing that's going on and how this did happen.
19 I tried to talk to security. They
20 told me they never noticed a single thing. And
21 then I was stopped by John Carns here, he said
22 you need to stop this investigation. I said,
23 well, I need to get to the bottom of this. And
24 I did my investigation.
25 I talked to the security, that had
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1 nothing to do with us. And he said, Coach,
2 these are 19, 20-year-old women that come in
3 here every single day like every dormitory.
4 So, the one thing I did to try and
5 change it when getting these managers together,
6 I said it's your responsibility. Look at right
7 now, we had a chance to win a national
8 championship and we had two fifth-year seniors
9 come in and transfer because they never could
10 play in the NCAA Tournament and we took that
11 dream away from them as well.
12 If one of you would have come forward,
13 we could have stopped that. They all swore to
14 me that they never saw a single thing, not one
15 single time. So, I guess awareness, you know,
16 being a parent, it's the same thing, as you
17 know, Mr. Hill, as you educate your children.
18 Could it happen again? God, I hope it would
19 never happen again.
20 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: All right.
21 I am going to Mr. Novak.
22 MR. NOVAK: Just a quick question on
23 Andre McGee. He came in, if I am correct, for
24 the first two years as a graduate assistant; is
25 that right?
Page 125
1 MR. PITINO: Yes.
2 MR. NOVAK: He moved up then. Was
3 that the DOBO position he got?
4 MR. PITINO: Yes, it was.
5 MR. NOVAK: In either one of those
6 situations, was he responsible at all for the
7 dorm, the running of the dormitory, or was it
8 just basketball operations?
9 MR. PITINO: He was responsible for
10 logistics. As the DOBO, he was handling
11 scheduling of basketball games, he was handling
12 the academic checking on classes, scheduling
13 tutors, working with Anthony Wright in that.
14 In the dormitory, he was responsible
15 for making sure there were no mishaps. If there
16 was a marijuana smell, if there was alcohol use,
17 things of that, he would report it into the RAs.
18 MR. NOVAK: It was really basketball
19 operations, nothing to do with the dormitory at
20 all?
21 MR. PITINO: Well, if he saw something
22 wrong in the dormitory, he was to report it.
23 MR. NOVAK: I understand that. If one
24 of those other students, non-basketball players,
25 had an issue in the dormitory, who would they go
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1 to?
2 MR. PITINO: They would go to the
3 assistant coaches, they could come to me. It
4 depends on what it was about. We have had some
5 problems, and they would come to me, and then we
6 have thrown people out of the dormitory. We
7 have also disciplined them because of it.
8 MR. NOVAK: So, the normal students
9 really have nobody non-basketball to go to if
10 they had an issue?
11 MR. SMRT: There was an RA in Minardi
12 that was hired by EDR or hired by Housing, if
13 you will. So the non-student-athletes -- those
14 individuals not connected with the basketball
15 team, that was their contact. And, again, even
16 though that was their contact, the RA had
17 responsibility for everybody, not just non-
18 student-athletes. If there was a discipline
19 issue and we interviewed that individual, he
20 talked about it, if there was a discipline issue
21 with athletes, he had that responsibility, RA
22 had that responsibility for that.
23 The other layer put on it was the DOBO
24 who had responsibility. As McGee said, I was
25 the watch dog to make sure student-athletes
Page 127
1 weren't doing anything they were not supposed to
2 do. But don't forget, there was an RA in there
3 because it was a University housing situation.
4 MR. NOVAK: Thank you. I am good.
5 MR. PITINO: If I could give you a
6 classic example of what happened this year. The
7 RA called up our office and said we have a
8 problem. Three of the basketball players were
9 riding a hover board and they had Solo cups,
10 this was during the season mind you, they had
11 Solo cups and they had a little alcohol in the
12 bottom of the Solo cup.
13 They reported it into me. I called
14 the young men and said was this true. And they
15 said yes, it's true. We had a day off tomorrow.
16 And I said, where did the alcohol come from?
17 And we took it out of a room that it was in. I
18 took away the hover boards and threw them away
19 in the garbage. I put them on two weeks'
20 suspension of having any visitation rights, and
21 they were to be in at 9:00 o'clock every day,
22 and the worst thing I did, which is like for
23 them running in the Sahara Desert, I took away
24 their cell phones and computers for two weeks.
25 And that was a very minor thing that
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1 happened in terms of the way college kids are
2 today, but I was trying to send the message
3 obviously that was extreme for the other people.
4 So, when you say what are we doing different, I
5 just went overboard this year, I think way
6 overboard. I think it was really unfair to them
7 because this group did not partake in what went
8 on in the past. Just to send a message going
9 forward that we can't ever have anything like
10 this ever again. So just an incident that the
11 RA reported to us, they had to get up at 6:00
12 o'clock.
13 And the interesting thing is one of
14 the players, a walk on, his father called me a
15 week later and he said, Coach, I have got a
16 problem with what you did to my son. And I said
17 I am sorry, I understand, but it's going to
18 stick. He said, well, why are you doing it? I
19 said because they had alcohol and they shouldn't
20 have alcohol in Minardi Hall. He said my son
21 has never had a drink in his life.
22 And I called him in that afternoon,
23 actually, and I said, Jay, did you partake in
24 the drinking of alcohol? He said, no, Coach. I
25 said, well, why didn't you say so to me? He
Page 129
1 said, Coach, you were so upset at that point, I
2 did not want to say anything at all, I just was
3 going to take the punishment and I didn't care.
4 And so that's how on guard we are. We
5 have been on pins and needles now for quite
6 sometime over all of this stuff.
7 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I have a
8 follow-up to the question that Mr. Novak asked.
9 How many non-basketball related students and
10 others are in Minardi Hall?
11 MR. CARNS: Are you talking just non-
12 student-athletes, managers?
13 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I am
14 talking regular students, students who are not
15 associated at all with the basketball program.
16 It was in the record that there are such
17 students.
18 MR. BANKER: Yes, I would probably say
19 six or eight.
20 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: And how
21 did they get chosen?
22 MR. PITINO: They apply to Housing.
23 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
24 MR. SMRT: In 2014, the enforcement
25 staff came in and reviewed an issue regarding
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1 Minardi Hall about how individuals live in the 1 dormitory. I would choose those people. I have
2 dorm, and they reviewed that so the issue of the 2 to hire someone right now for that position to
3 composition of Minardi Hall was reviewed at that 3 replace Brandon.
4 time. I thought it was more than six or eight. 4 MR. BOCK: And because they are to be
5 That's in our response. I will get that for 5 the watch dog, is character and ethical
6 you. But, anyway, that whole issue was reviewed 6 qualities an aspect of what you evaluate?
7 at that time regarding whether there was any 7 MR. PITINO: We are probably spending
8 special benefits. 8 more time with that. We just went through
9 The Athletics Department -- well, 9 resumes the other day, and I immediately --
10 Coach said that. We will get you the number, 10 MR. BOCK: I just want to know whether
11 the actual number. 11 that's something that you evaluate.
12 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Bock, 12 MR. PITINO: Yes. The thing we tried
13 do you want to follow up? I am sorry. All 13 to do the other day, we had five really
14 right. 14 outstanding candidates that the head coaches
15 MR. JURICH: If I may, I would just 15 called me and said these kids are just
16 like to add one thing. We are making this 16 unbelievable. I said, yes, but they are too
17 Minardi Hall sound like it's in the middle of 17 young. They could align themselves agewise with
18 the Sahara Desert or on an island. It sits 18 the people that are only one or two years older.
19 amongst all of our campus housing. All of our 19 So, right now we have a lot of things
20 dorms, the majority of our dorms, are right 20 we are looking at. We would like them to be
21 there, all a stone's throw from this. So 21 between 26 and 30. He obviously has to be
22 Housing is heavily involved with everything we 22 single. We would like someone who is not only
23 do. 23 extremely disciplined but somebody who would not
24 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay, 24 align himself with the students at all.
25 that's helpful. Thank you. Okay, Mr. Bock. 25 And I would say, you know, like Tom
Page 131 Page 133
1 MR. BOCK: I believe it was in that 1 said, we are in the middle of about six
2 2014 review by enforcement regarding Minardi 2 different dormitories right there, right across
3 Hall that Mr. McGee may have said something 3 the street, right next to us, and we probably
4 along the lines that he was the watch dog and 4 have much more monitoring going on than a
5 that was one of his responsibilities. Does the 5 regular dormitory.
6 institution agree that that was one of his 6 MR. BOCK: Did you conduct an
7 responsibilities and the reasons that he was in 7 interview of Mr. McGee for his position in
8 Minardi Hall? 8 Minardi Hall?
9 MR. SMRT: Yes, that was one of his 9 MR. PITINO: Yes, I did. I got to
10 responsibilities, and that's one of the reasons 10 know Andre's parents, I got to know everything
11 why this is so unsettling was because he had 11 about Andre McGee. He was a Captain of the ball
12 several responsibilities, one of which was, as 12 club. Andre McGee always carried himself the
13 he said, I was the watch dog. One of my 13 right way, doing all the right things. You
14 responsibilities was to look over the athletes. 14 would never hear a bad word about Andre McGee
15 MR. BOCK: And who chose him to be the 15 the four years that he played for us. He was a
16 watch dog, who was responsible ultimately for 16 model student, model athlete. His best friend,
17 putting him in that position? 17 Atha Woods, was the academic advisor, Anthony
18 MR. PITINO: In terms of watching the 18 Wright.
19 dormitory? 19 So, Andre did everything the right
20 MR. BOCK: Yes, sir. 20 way. There was never ever any signal that he
21 MR. PITINO: Whoever we put in that 21 wasn't doing things the right way. This is why
22 dormitory, the two program assistants, Brandon 22 it's so staggering for all of us who have known
23 being one of them in the last few years, they 23 him.
24 would be responsible for making sure that 24 MS. WISE: I would like to add, as the
25 nothing was going on incorrectly in that 25 Faculty Athletics Rep, I got to know Andre very
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1 well. I would go over to talk to the team at 1 MR. BOCK: Is that one of your
2 their first team meeting. Andre as a student- 2 practices or not something that's been addressed
3 athlete and also in his position was highly 3 thus far?
4 respected by the faculty, by the community, 4 MR. TOMPSETT: I will answer that.
5 certainly by the students. We would have 5 When the investigation started, Coach Pitino was
6 thought of him as the absolute model in terms of 6 directed to stand down very quickly after the
7 ethics. 7 allegations surfaced, so he did not play any
8 He had a Master's degree from our 8 type of material part in conducting the
9 institution. He had an impeccable undergraduate 9 investigation or developing investigation
10 record. He was affable, friendly, out of his 10 strategy.
11 way to be respectful of faculty. So, I just 11 MR. BOCK: My questions weren't
12 want you to understand why we are so deeply, 12 related to the investigation, they were related
13 deeply hurt. 13 to the time period that he was an employee at
14 MR. BOCK: Understood. And you would 14 the University.
15 agree, Ms. Wise, that it's important to get 15 MR. TOMPSETT: Let me clarify so the
16 underneath the surface of an individual in a 16 record is clear. Your question is during the
17 position of responsibility like that? 17 time that Mr. McGee was employed by the
18 MS. WISE: I guess my question is, how 18 University, prior to the start of the
19 much further can you get under the surface than 19 investigation, did Coach Pitino take Mr. McGee's
20 to conduct interviews with someone and to get to 20 device, University issued device and review it
21 know them over a period of years? He had an 21 to determine if there was pornography on it?
22 impeccable record. I don't know how much deeper 22 MR. BOCK: My question is whether
23 you think we could have gone. I am sorry, maybe 23 there is any sort of monitoring in place to try
24 you can tell me. 24 to ascertain whether employees, particularly
25 MR. BOCK: I am just going to ask a 25 somebody in a watch dog role, might be engaged
Page 135 Page 137
1 few questions. Mr. Pitino, what was your 1 in any improper behavior like that.
2 understanding, or did you have any information 2 MR. JURICH: I will take that one.
3 on whether Mr. McGee was engaged in viewing 3 No, there is not. We do not look at anybody's
4 pornography while he was an employee of the 4 computer unless we would have a need to.
5 University? 5 Your question about Mr. McGee being
6 MR. PITINO: No, I have never heard of 6 interviewed, I think it's highly unlikely that
7 or seen anything like that. 7 any of this would have come about because he was
8 MR. BOCK: Did you ask him any 8 interviewed, in my opinion, for eight years
9 questions about whether he viewed pornography? 9 prior every single day, pretty much 24/7 by this
10 MR. PITINO: Are you talking about 10 man.
11 when he was recruited by me or when he was 11 We knew everything about this guy, and
12 working for me or -- 12 there is not one person on this campus who would
13 MR. BOCK: At any time, but 13 have even given you a red flag about him. For
14 specifically I am most interested in when he was 14 us to know that is highly impossible and totally
15 working for you. 15 improbable, and as Dr. Wise said, how deep could
16 MR. PITINO: No, Andre dated girls. 16 we have gone on one of our own, somebody that we
17 We did not talk about pornography. That is not 17 highly trusted?
18 something we talked about. 18 MR. BOCK: In terms of the interview
19 MR. BOCK: Was he given a University 19 process and the file that's maintained on Mr.
20 laptop or a Tablet? 20 McGee and Mr. Pitino, were any interviews of Mr.
21 MR. PITINO: Yes. 21 McGee's roommates or any other references
22 MR. BOCK: Was that laptop or Tablet 22 interviewed in relation to offering him the
23 reviewed for pornography at any time? 23 position within the dormitory as a watch dog?
24 MR. PITINO: I really don't know the 24 MR. PITINO: Well, his roommate was
25 answer to that. 25 Terrance Williams, who was at that time close
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1 with Andre, they were teammates. Let me give 1 MR. TOMPSETT: Okay. Well, that was
2 you a classic example, one of his teammates is 2 Chuck Smrt. When an investigator interviewed
3 currently my full-time assistant who played for 3 Anthony Wright, Anthony Wright was asked about
4 me, David Padgett. And Davis is as shocked as 4 strip clubs, and he said that he never talked to
5 anybody that this happened. 5 McGee about going to strip clubs and he doesn't
6 I guess your question is does he have 6 go to strip clubs.
7 -- about pornography, does he have some sexual 7 MR. BOCK: Mr. Pitino, did you do any
8 deviancy that we could have noticed? I think 8 investigation to determine whether Mr. McGee
9 probably Greg could answer this better being at 9 engaged in any gambling activity at any time
10 Xavier, I honestly don't think there is a 10 while employed or prior to his employment with
11 program in America that looks at any assistant's 11 the University?
12 computers to look at pornography. I have never 12 MR. PITINO: We had a rule that
13 heard of that. I have been in this business 13 assistant coaches -- we have a casino nearby,
14 over 40 years, and I have never heard of 14 maybe ten, 15 miles away, and we told our staff
15 anything like that. But all of Andre's 15 do not go into that casino.
16 teammates all felt that he was top shelf in 16 MR. BOCK: And I appreciate that, and
17 character 17 I think that's a good instruction, but did you
18 MR. BOCK: Did you do any inquiry to 18 undertake any inquiry to determine whether he
19 determine whether at any time prior to or during 19 had violated that instruction or whether prior
20 the period in which he was employed by you he 20 to becoming employed by the University he had
21 was attending strip clubs? 21 engaged in gambling?
22 MR. PITINO: I told my staff the 22 MR. PITINO: Well, I had one
23 following things: Don't ever go to a strip 23 basketball player on my team, who at the time he
24 club. Stay out of casinos. If you go out to 24 was over 21, went to what they called the Boat.
25 dinner, you are to have all ten managers' phone 25 And by the time I got into work the next
Page 139 Page 141
1 numbers. If you have more than one drink, you 1 morning, I had a message on our office phone
2 are to contact them and make sure that you have 2 telling me to call there, that one of our
3 a ride home. I educate each and every one of 3 athletes was in the casino playing Black Jack.
4 them the pitfalls from prior experience of my 4 So we immediately made the casinos off
5 own. 5 limits to our players as well. Andre McGee, to
6 MR. BOCK: I appreciate that, but my 6 my knowledge, never went to casinos, didn't
7 question was whether there was any sort of 7 gamble. Our staff was told on numerous
8 review or investigation done to determine 8 occasions not to do that.
9 whether he frequented strip clubs. 9 MR. BOCK: Did you ask him whether he
10 MR. PITINO: I have never heard him 10 went to casinos or gambled?
11 frequent strip clubs. 11 MR. PITINO: They were told not to do
12 MR. BOCK: Did you ask him questions 12 it specifically. And just to give you an idea,
13 about that? 13 we are in at 6:45 a.m. and he has got jobs until
14 MR. PITINO: No, I did not. 14 after dinner. We don't have a whole lot of time
15 MR. TOMPSETT: I will add, though, 15 to gamble.
16 that Anthony Wright, who has been described as 16 MR. BOCK: Mr. Pitino, I will ask the
17 very close to McGee, perhaps one of his best 17 question a third time. Did you ask him whether
18 friends, when he was interviewed, he was asked 18 he had engaged in gambling?
19 by the enforcement staff, Anthony Wright told 19 MR. PITINO: I did not.
20 the enforcement staff that he and Andre never 20 MR. TOMPSETT: Did you ever have any
21 went to a strip club, said he doesn't go to 21 reason to ask Andre McGee if he engaged in
22 strip clubs. 22 gambling?
23 MR. LEFFLER: I am sorry, but for the 23 MR. PITINO: None whatsoever.
24 record, the enforcement staff didn't interview 24 MR. TOMPSETT: Did you ever see any
25 Anthony Wright. Thanks. 25 signs whatsoever that Andre McGee had engaged in
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1 gambling? 1 questions, many discussions. And did I ask him
2 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Let's 2 about pornography? No. Did I check his
3 remember that this is the opportunity for the 3 computer? No.
4 Panel to ask the questions. 4 MR. BOCK: Well, you offered to answer
5 MR. TOMPSETT: Okay. Well, as long as 5 a question about what questions would you ask
6 I get an opportunity to come back to that. 6 now of somebody in a watch dog role.
7 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: You'll 7 MR. PITINO: Well, you bring up some
8 have an opportunity. 8 things that I am not -- the pornography question
9 MR. TOMPSETT: And I want to state for 9 right now because of what we have been through,
10 the record, and we are here to answer all of 10 I probably would ask that question now that you
11 your questions, I don't understand where this 11 bring up because you've educated me on
12 line of questioning is going. Mr. Jurich has 12 something. I am not sure they would tell me the
13 been an A.D. for a long time, and in response to 13 truth, though, you know, when I ask that
14 your pornography question that said that he 14 question. That's the problem I would have with
15 doesn't know of any program in the country that 15 asking do you go to strip clubs, if I was
16 would screen for that. 16 interviewing, do you watch pornography? I am
17 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: We are 17 not sure one person would answer me yes even if
18 listening to everything. 18 they did watch pornography. But I think I would
19 MR. TOMPSETT: That's fine. 19 ask the question now that you bring that up.
20 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: But let's 20 MR. BOCK: And my last two areas of
21 let Mr. Bock continue. 21 questions relate to policies and whether the
22 MR. BOCK: Mr. Pitino, then having not 22 University has particular policies in place for
23 covered those areas in your interview of the 23 the basketball program. Is there a specific
24 watch dog for his position, what areas of his 24 whistleblower policy, and can you give me an
25 character did you specifically ask him about in 25 explanation of what's meant by that? Is there a
Page 143 Page 145
1 the interview? 1 whistleblower policy that applies to the
2 MR. PITINO: Well, I coached him for 2 basketball program?
3 four years. If you are saying what questions 3 MR. CARNS: Yes. Not just with the
4 would I ask moving forward of the next position? 4 basketball program, with all of our student-
5 MR. BOCK: First of all, let's deal 5 athletes, you know, we educate them on reporting
6 with Mr. McGee, and then I will let you answer 6 violations. We have an anonymous line on our
7 that question, too, because I think it's an 7 website for them to do that. Every one of our
8 important one. 8 rules educations we are stressing integrity,
9 MR. PITINO: With Andre, and knowing 9 doing the right thing, especially in light of
10 his parents as well as knowing him, I told him 10 what's happened here.
11 exactly what I expected of him. I wanted him to 11 There is an on-campus hotline that as
12 tell me everything that he witnessed, and I told 12 well they can report violations to, and they are
13 him the set of rules with all the players that 13 all educated on all those things.
14 we have in place. 14 MR. BANKER: We also have communicated
15 He knew it both as a player and then 15 across campus through our list or to everyone,
16 as a graduate assistant and then as Director of 16 faculty, staff, students, regardless of your
17 Basketball Operations. He was fully aware of 17 connection to athletics or not, about the things
18 everything I wanted from him. And I had a total 18 that John just intimated about reporting. If
19 belief that he would do things the right way 19 you see something, say something. If you have
20 from the way he was educated. 20 questions about NCAA rules, to contact our
21 MR. BOCK: So, is that an indication 21 office, to contact our Athletic Director.
22 that you didn't ask him any questions, but you 22 And a second point to a question you
23 did have an understanding based on your 23 had asked earlier may be a good juncture to add,
24 questions? 24 what have we done differently? We have sat down
25 MR. PITINO: We have had many 25 with every single employee in Minardi Hall,
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1 student workers, RAs, security, food service,
2 and reiterated the importance of handling
3 anything, including reports that go up to the RA
4 that were addressed before, to follow our
5 Housing policies as they are scripted like all
6 campus units for residents.
7 Our life skill staff, our compliance
8 staff and the Housing -- just to finish that
9 thought, it was not just education that we
10 shared with our Housing staff, it was
11 reiterating the policies and procedures by which
12 they operate in Housing that needed to be
13 executed similar to any other place on campus
14 that students live.
15 MR. BOCK: Mr. Pitino, the
16 whistleblower policy sounds like a good one, an
17 opportunity to report anonymously because it
18 sounds like some of the players may be afraid to
19 come to you from time to time. Have you shared
20 that whistleblowing policy or have members of
21 your staff addressed that with the players? And
22 it looks like your Athletic Director may want to
23 answer that question.
24 MR. JURICH: Sorry, Coach, I am going
25 to jump in. Mr. Bock, I hope I can answer this
Page 147
1 question. This is my 32nd year as an A.D. while
2 I am at Northern Arizona University, Colorado
3 State, I have been at Louisville now 20. Every
4 Sunday night prior to the start of school,
5 that's late August at all the institutions, we
6 have a dinner with all of our student-athletes,
7 cheerleaders, pep band, our Lady Birds, all the
8 support service, managers, anybody, the head
9 coaches, anybody you can think of. And I
10 address that group.
11 There is only one agenda, that is my
12 group. And we talk about the glass house that
13 we live in. We talk about what is expected of
14 you. We talk about the hotline that we have
15 within the Athletic Department, and we talk
16 about the hotline that we have in the
17 University. We don't want anybody keeping
18 anything quiet.
19 I have said that for 32 years on that
20 Sunday night. And, Elaine, I am sure you've
21 been there and heard it. It's very important
22 for us for everybody to come forward every
23 single time. In every meeting that she is with
24 the individual teams, I won't speak for her, but
25 I know the same thing comes out. It's very
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1 important for our people to know where to go.
2 So, take it that the players are
3 afraid of coach, they would come to me, at least
4 I thought they would. One did, and I can
5 guarantee you that, one did. And that one of
6 all of them shocks me the most.
7 MR. BOCK: Mr. Pitino, is that meeting
8 that Mr. Jurich describes, is that followed up
9 on by the coaching staff, specifically address
10 the whistleblower policy with the athletes?
11 MR. PITINO: What I try to tell the
12 athletes all the time when we went through this,
13 I said, look, guys, some of you may be
14 uncomfortable coming to me as a 64-year-old
15 person and talking about something like that.
16 Go to your assistant coaches and we will not
17 mention your name at all. Go and tell them the
18 truth if you feel uncomfortable approaching that
19 subject with me, And I talk to them all about
20 it.
21 And I said you shouldn't feel
22 uncomfortable because I have heard it all in my
23 42 years of coaching, eight years in the pros as
24 well as college. I said come to me; if not, go
25 to your assistant coaches.
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1 MR. BOCK: And I think this is the
2 last area of questions related to policies and
3 practices in place. Does the basketball team
4 have an honor code or code of ethics?
5 MR. PITINO: We do. We have it up on
6 our wall in the gymnasium.
7 MR. BOCK: Do you have something more
8 detailed that would identify specific behaviors
9 that will not be engaged in by the team?
10 MR. PITINO: As our code of ethics?
11 MR. BOCK: As part of the written
12 policy regarding ethical standards.
13 MR. PITINO: It's up on the wall as
14 well as the locker room.
15 MR. BOCK: Okay. So, I want to ask
16 you some specific questions. Is there any
17 written rule against a basketball player
18 engaging in sex with a prostitute?
19 MR. CARNS: All of our student-
20 athletes, we have a student-athlete handbook
21 that has all kinds of policies in it including,
22 you know, ethics, everything like that. We also
23 review at our beginning of the year and end of
24 the year meetings these same principles and
25 things for all our students, including our men's
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1 basketball program specifically. 1 would have been handled differently in terms of
2 MR. BOCK: Mr. Pitino, is there a rule 2 suspensions.
3 for the basketball team that prohibits engaging 3 MR. BOCK: Thank you.
4 in sex with a prostitute? 4 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Hill
5 MR. PITINO: That's not one of the 5 has a follow-up.
6 things up on the wall. 6 MR. HILL: One quick one, Coach. In
7 MR. BOCK: I wouldn't think so. 7 your selection process, will the Department of
8 MR. PITINO: But there will be now. 8 Residence be involved in that selection process
9 Not up on the wall, but it will be addressed. 9 at all?
10 MR. BOCK: Is there a general ethical 10 MR. PITINO: Yes. When we get down to
11 standard that is on the wall that you would tie 11 the person that we would hire, we would
12 that one to? 12 introduce them to the residence hall.
13 MR. PITINO: Yes. 13 MR. HILL: But they will not be
14 MR. BOCK: What is that? 14 involved in the selection process? And the
15 MR. PITINO: Is treat women with great 15 reason I ask, they are the experts in housing,
16 respect and dignity, and I think that is spoken 16 and it seems like having them involved in that
17 to with the team. I cover every little aspect 17 process would be very helpful to you.
18 of that, and we talk about quite a few examples 18 MR. PITINO: Well, they pick their
19 as well as we bring people in outside. We 19 RAs.
20 brought in three different speakers this year on 20 MR. HILL: I do understand. But this
21 different topics of that. And we pay for that. 21 person is going to work really hand-in-hand with
22 We bring these people in, we fly them in and we 22 that RA; is that correct, and they need to be on
23 talk about it. 23 the same page?
24 MR. BOCK: Is there one of your 24 MR. PITINO: Yeah, I think that's a
25 ethical standards that would prohibit a player 25 great suggestion. I think they should be
Page 151 Page 153
1 or a coach or employee, or anyone associated 1 involved in that as well.
2 with the program from bringing a 17-year-old 2 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr.
3 recruit to a sex party or a sex show? 3 Parkinson.
4 MR. PITINO: You are asking me that? 4 MR. PARKINSON: I have got two
5 MR. BOCK: Yes. 5 questions primarily to the institution. And I
6 MR. PITINO: Excuse me, what context 6 am looping back to Allegation No. 1 and where we
7 is that? 7 have a disagreement, that's 1-b and 1-d.
8 MR. BOCK: Is there one of those 8 The first question is the credibility
9 policies in terms of your ethical statement that 9 issue relating to Katina Powell, because I think
10 would apply to that sort of behavior? 10 as Mr. Smrt indicated what you are asking us to
11 MR. PITINO: Yes, that sort of 11 do is not credit Katina Powell for anything and
12 behavior will be written down in the future. It 12 that's critical to 1-b and 1-d.
13 goes hand in hand with treating women with 13 My question is this. I would like you
14 respect. 14 to respond to what Mr. Leffler laid out when he
15 MR. BOCK: You have stated that if you 15 was talking about Katina Powell's credibility,
16 knew about these acts, that the persons involved 16 and let me just key it up this way. There is a
17 would have been removed from the team 17 tendency, I think, not just in a forum like this
18 immediately. Does that include the players or 18 but in other forums to think that if somebody
19 the recruits if you found out later when they 19 has bad character or is disreputable, that that
20 were a player that they were involved in this; 20 somehow translates to the fact that they must be
21 is that what your response would have been? 21 not credible.
22 MR. PITINO: Andre McGee would have 22 We wouldn't solve many crimes or other
23 been immediately terminated. The players 23 bad behavior if that was the standard. Just
24 involved, I would have gotten them counseling on 24 because somebody has a disreputable character
25 that. Depending on the situation, each one 25 does not mean -- Mr. Leffler went through a list
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1 of corroboration and the way we see it, in
2 disreputable folks, we see if there is
3 corroboration, see if there is evidence that
4 supports what they said regardless of who they
5 might be as a person.
6 I thought that was a really important
7 point, and I just wanted to get, if you could do
8 it pretty crisply, probably more crisply than I
9 asked the question, I would like to get your
10 response to that because it does seem to me that
11 in this case, regardless of what you might think
12 of Katina Powell, we have got 20 people who
13 support what she said and corroborate what she
14 said and we have got documentary evidence, and
15 it is remarkable to me how many, and I think
16 this is a tribute to the institution; it's
17 remarkable how many student-athletes came
18 forward and other staffers and admitted what
19 they had done in this case. To me, it was
20 remarkable.
21 We have had cases where there is no
22 problem finding a violation, the institution
23 concedes their violation, but people down the
24 line lie about it. But here they didn't do
25 that. It was pretty remarkable. So I think
Page 155
1 that's really critical in assessing, and again
2 it just relates back to whether or not we find
3 1-b and 1-d as alleged.
4 MR. SMRT: I appreciate that last
5 point, and remember that when we argue for
6 exemplary cooperation. So I don't want to lose
7 that point.
8 With 1-b, I don't know if Powell is a
9 major player in that. I think she is more
10 important probably in 1-d to the staff's
11 position, but Nate can tell me I am different on
12 that.
13 But I think we have been very careful,
14 and I know I have been very careful, including
15 during that interview, during my two interviews
16 I sat in on those, not to assassinate her
17 character. And I think if you look through our
18 response, we have not done that.
19 We said she is inexact, and we said
20 just as Nate went through some that she said
21 were involved with dances. And they were. Many
22 of the athletes, I think Nate said, I forgot the
23 adverb that Nate used, but there are many of the
24 athletes in 1 that she did not name. These
25 athletes came forth when we talked to them.
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1 But we said her memory was inexact,
2 and she put several people, Eliza Justus, she
3 said during her first interview, Justus watched
4 dances and then we went to talk to Justus. He
5 said no. We went back to her second interview,
6 yeah, I guess I was wrong, maybe Justus wasn't
7 there.
8 I don't expect her to be correct of
9 knowing every person in every room, but so then
10 corroborate her. And if she is right in all
11 these situations, that's great, but that doesn't
12 mean she can't be incorrect in a dark room with
13 20 people or ten people or whatever number of
14 people.
15 So, we have been very careful, and I
16 want to make sure this is emphasized, we have
17 not done a character assassination on her. We
18 are saying corroborate her, but she is to be
19 exact.
20 She said Kevin Ware and Anton Gill,
21 she said they both received sexual activities.
22 Both of those kids were given immunity by you,
23 and they said no. Well, it comes from the
24 Committee on Infractions, and so again she is
25 wrong. Now, does that mean she is terrible, a
Page 157
1 terrible person? No. It means she's inexact.
2 We all get things wrong occasionally,
3 but let's every time, corroborate her every
4 time, not say because she was right over here,
5 she must be right here. Let's corroborate her
6 every time.
7 Plus do you need it? You know, these
8 are ties. I think Mr. Bock said earlier
9 something about the close call. Some of these
10 are close calls. I believe, I have always
11 thought a close call goes to the school. It
12 doesn't go to the enforcement staff.
13 So, there are situations where she
14 says she has a very vivid recollection of
15 Blackshear opening up the door the first time
16 for her when she came into Minardi Hall. Guess
17 what, Blackshear wasn't enrolled for another
18 year or two later. She's wrong.
19 Now, does that mean she's a terrible
20 person? Does that mean she's not credible? No.
21 We are just saying corroborate her every time
22 you use her. Don't use her standing alone
23 sometime. But I think, and Nate can tell me
24 different, I don't believe that 1-b she's a
25 major player in that. I think it runs more to
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1 1-d.
2 MR. PARKINSON: Okay. I really
3 appreciate the answer, Mr. Smrt. And then
4 following up on something you said, what do we
5 need? And this goes to the question of whether
6 or not we need to individually look at each of
7 the specific acts or the subcomponents of
8 Allegation 1 and determine whether they are
9 violation III or violation I. There is a
10 difference of opinion obviously. We had a good
11 exchange. But do you take the position that
12 this Committee in making our determination needs
13 to wrestle with that issue at all given the fact
14 that you say collectively, obviously, it's a
15 Level I?
16 MR. SMRT: Not to get to Level I--
17 not to get to Allegation 1 as Level I. When we
18 have a discussion about penalty later on, that
19 could come into play. But, no, we acknowledge
20 Level I, as Allegation 1 is a Level I.
21 MR. PARKINSON: Okay. I appreciate
22 that. We will defer. I guess if we have to get
23 to it when we talk about penalties, I will defer
24 to that point, because it's probably worth some
25 further discussion if you think that it really
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1 makes a difference whether we decide that a
2 particular act valued at $300, or whatever the
3 number is, is a Level III versus a Level I.
4 But we will defer that, because I thought we had
5 gotten to the point where we had collectively
6 concluded that we didn't need to wrestle with
7 each individual allegation.
8 MR. SMRT: I am not sure if you need
9 to. But when we get to that later on, maybe we
10 can -- if we need to, we will get into that
11 detailed discussion. I am not sure if we do.
12 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I had your
13 answer. Of the approximately 40, and this is
14 over the four years of the approximately 40
15 residents at Minardi, there is usually are about
16 15 or 16 athletes, depending upon the number of
17 men's basketball players, there is usually about
18 six or eight students and then some of the other
19 people could be affiliated with the program as
20 just a manager or whatever.
21 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: So the
22 number of six to eight that you gave me earlier,
23 that's an estimate of the non-basketball related
24 people?
25 MR. SMRT: Yeah, I think that's
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1 correct. We actually have the list.
2 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: That's
3 fine. That's enough specificity.
4 I have a question for the enforcement
5 staff. Some of these prospects were under age,
6 and I am interested in the extent to which that
7 factored into your investigation and your
8 decisions regarding allegations.
9 MR. LEFFLER: The enforcement staff
10 during the investigation never confirmed the
11 actual age typically of the prospects. They may
12 have been under age, they may have been over the
13 age of 18. However, based on that being more
14 towards the criminal investigation type of
15 matter versus a specific NCAA bylaw violation,
16 the enforcement staff didn't really focus on the
17 age of the prospects.
18 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thanks for
19 that clarification. And a question for the
20 institution about the comment made -- I am
21 sorry, I have forgotten exactly who made it,
22 that in everything we do in our residence halls
23 we follow for the basketball players exactly
24 what would be followed for all other students.
25 We did raise a question in preparing
Page 161
1 for the case about the prospects who did not pay
2 for their room and learned that no guest pays,
3 according to University policy, therefore,
4 basketball player prospects were being treated
5 like everyone else. Is that true for every
6 other aspect of the Housing policy?
7 MR. CARNS: In relation to letting
8 guests stay for free in the dormitories?
9 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I think
10 that was resolved, that other guests stay free
11 so, therefore, it's appropriate not to charge
12 prospects. But the housing policy is broader
13 than what is charged to be a guest or in your
14 case not charged. I am asking if all other
15 aspects of housing policies were followed when
16 the prospects visited.
17 For example, I believe the policy
18 includes a provision that guests must have a
19 student host, that they are not to be in a room
20 by themselves. And yet it appears that from
21 time to time these prospects were alone in a
22 room.
23 MR. CARNS: I think one thing to
24 clarify, and Chuck may have some points to add
25 to this, is that in reference to the rooms and
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1 the actual geography of the rooms IN Minardi
2 Hall is that it's almost set up as a bedroom, a
3 central area and another bedroom. So, when
4 someone references in an interview that I stayed
5 in a room alone does not necessarily mean that
6 they were not accompanied by a student host.
7 And to the broader question about
8 housing policies, generally speaking, yes, but I
9 do know our housing also has groups of
10 dormitories and residence halls that kind of
11 have clusters of policies that Minardi may have
12 been part of a smaller cluster of buildings that
13 have a certain operation, partly in reference to
14 the fact EDR was operating some of the residence
15 halls on our campus.
16 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: So it
17 sounds like there is some slippage possibly. So
18 what's been done to ensure that those kinds of
19 issues are shored up now that you've been
20 through this particular process?
21 MR. CARNS: Well, for one, as was
22 referenced earlier, that our Housing Unit has
23 direct control versus sort of control through an
24 outside entity that has many campuses across the
25 country have outside entities running residence
Page 163
1 halls on universities.
2 I would also add to that we have had a
3 new Housing Director and from our vantage point
4 working in our Compliance Office have
5 reiterated, as I mentioned before, that our
6 policies and procedures from a housing
7 standpoint, we wanted to make sure we have
8 reinforced guest policies and so forth.
9 It was unique just to add that, yeah,
10 our University is one that allows guests to stay
11 for free. Many institutions don't have that
12 policy, but as you said, Madam Chair, that was
13 clarified. It's something that we had also
14 vetted with the NCAA before, but Chuck may also
15 have additional thoughts on it.
16 MR. SMRT: Two points that I mentioned
17 earlier. What's different now is the unofficial
18 visit form specifically says this person will be
19 in this room and there is the ability to check
20 to make sure there is someone else in that room,
21 and the community manager or the RA must sign
22 off on the guest and that just went into effect
23 in '15, so I would emphasize those again.
24 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: So, some
25 of the forms that we saw were signed off
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1 significantly later than the visits. Are you
2 saying that this form that the RA is going to
3 sign off is going to be timely?
4 MR. SMRT: Well, I think the form you
5 might allude to had to do with either the
6 unofficial visit or the official visit form.
7 The form that the RA must sign off on is a
8 Housing form, it is not an Athletic Department
9 form, and it's supposed to be done at the time.
10 You are supposed to seek approval of having an
11 overnight guest. So assuming you have to seek
12 approval, then that would be done prior to that
13 individual coming or staying, I guess.
14 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: All right.
15 I was aware of the differences, and perhaps I
16 didn't pose the question clearly enough, but I
17 understand your answer and it relates to what I
18 was trying to get at. Thank you.
19 Mr. Novak.
20 MR. NOVAK: Just a quick one for Coach
21 Pitino. You know, Andre McGee, you recruited
22 him, he played for you, he was the Captain, I
23 really understand why you hired him as a GA. I
24 mean, that's a natural move, I understand that.
25 I guess my only question or concern to ask you
Page 165
1 is, he really was as much a player in that -- he
2 played with a lot of those kids that he was
3 watching over; is that not correct? He was only
4 removed two years from the team.
5 MR. PITINO: A few, yes.
6 MR. NOVAK: Does it concern you at all
7 to put somebody in that position to be a watch
8 dog and to watch over when actually he is as
9 much one of them as he is one of the coaches, if
10 you see what I am saying? Is that a concern?
11 MR. PITINO: I see your point, and I
12 discussed that with Andre. I said, Andre, in
13 order for you to move up this way, you now have
14 to act like a coach, be a coach, you are not one
15 of them. We have had lengthy discussions about
16 that as well as David Padgett, Logan Ballman,
17 who was with us. You know, I went through the
18 same thing with -- I had a student manager at
19 Kentucky who became my assistant coach who later
20 became a video coordinator who today is the head
21 coach of the Orlando Magic. And I try to move
22 up the people that play for me and try to get
23 them to understand that they are no longer in
24 play.
25 I see your point in terms of age and
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1 in terms of that, and to be honest with you,
2 right now one of the prerequisites is that I
3 want to get somebody 26, 27, 28. I did hire
4 already -- when Andre McGee left, I hired a head
5 high school coach to come in there at 27 years
6 of age who served in that function last year
7 because of exactly what you said.
8 It does dismay me, though, the fact
9 that I love hiring my ex-players and moving them
10 up that ladder, but I don't think that's going
11 to be in our future anymore.
12 MR. NOVAK: I understand that exactly,
13 but again the point being is if you bring a GA
14 in who is 22 from the outside, the kids don't
15 know him as one of them. He's a coach. But
16 when you bring a player in that's played with
17 them and put them in a position of authority,
18 like I said, sometimes he's more one of the guys
19 than he is a coach, and I think it can, you
20 know, lead to a situation possibly.
21 MR. PITINO: I think that's true
22 although I did tell Andre all the safeguards
23 with that.
24 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: All right.
25 We are five ten minutes past noon. I believe we
Page 167
1 are finished with our discussion of Allegation
2 1. And I am not seeing any objections, so this
3 is the right time to break for lunch. Let's
4 return at 1:00 o'clock.
5 (NOON RECESS.)
6 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I think we
7 can go ahead and get started. Apparently, there
8 is a very important cookie delivery, and so we
9 will take a pause when that knock comes on the
10 door so that those of you who are looking
11 forward to some cookies to get through the
12 afternoon can be accommodated. I think we have
13 everyone back, so let's proceed.
14 And we are ready for Allegation No. 2,
15 and we will go to the enforcement staff for the
16 presentation of Allegation 2.
17 MR. STROTHKAMP: Thank you, Madam
18 Chair. Allegation No. 2 addresses Andre McGee's
19 unethical conduct in providing impermissible
20 inducements and offers and extra benefits when
21 he arranged for, offered and/or provided adult
22 entertainment, sex acts and cash to at least 17
23 then men's basketball prospective and/or current
24 student-athletes, two then non-scholastic men's
25 basketball coaches and one then men's basketball
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1 prospective student-athlete's friend as
2 discussed in Allegation No. 1, as well as
3 McGee's failure to cooperate in this
4 investigation.
5 The enforcement staff and the
6 institution are in substantial agreement as to
7 the facts of Allegation No. 2-a and agree that
8 those facts constitute violations of NCAA
9 legislation.
10 The institution takes no formal
11 position on Allegation No. 2-b as McGee was no
12 longer a staff member at the institution when
13 the alleged failure to cooperate occurred.
14 McGee notified the parties in writing
15 that he would not be providing a response to the
16 allegations in this case due to a pending
17 criminal investigation.
18 The enforcement staff and institution
19 agree that Allegation No. 2 is a Level I.
20 However, the institution believes McGee's
21 failure to cooperate in Allegation No. 2-b has
22 no liability on the institution.
23 Regarding Allegation No. 2-a, and as
24 discussed in detail in Allegation No. 1, Andre
25 McGee knowingly offered or provided
Page 169
1 impermissible inducements and/or extra benefits
2 in the form of cash, adult entertainment and sex
3 acts to at least 17 then men's basketball
4 prospective and/or current student-athletes, two
5 then non-scholastic men's basketball coaches and
6 one then men's basketball prospective student-
7 athlete's friend from at least December 2010
8 through July 2014.
9 As noted by the institution in its
10 response, McGee knew the applicable NCAA
11 legislation and his responsibility to abide by
12 it. McGee knew that as a staff member he could
13 not arrange, provide or fund adult entertainers
14 and escorts to provide prospects, student-
15 athletes and others associated with prospects
16 adult entertainment, oral sex and sexual
17 intercourse on or off campus. His conduct was
18 egregious and abhorrent.
19 The institution agrees with this
20 allegation and the level. As previously stated,
21 Andre McGee notified the parties in writing that
22 he would not be providing a response to the
23 allegations in this case due to a related
24 pending criminal investigation.
25 As noted by the Office of Committee on
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1 Infractions in its letter dated March 27, 2017, 1 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
2 to Scott Cox, McGee's personal legal counsel, 2 It's not necessary, but if the institution
3 this Hearing Panel may view McGee's decision not 3 wishes to respond, I would entertain that now.
4 to respond as an admission that the alleged 4 MR. SMRT: Very briefly. As Mark
5 violations occurred pursuant to NCAA Bylaw 5 said, there are two components. Involvement is
6 19.7.2. 6 "A" and cooperation is "B". We have some
7 As it relates to Allegation No. 2-b, 7 residual responsibility because of his unethical
8 on September 4, 2015, the institution, through 8 conduct because he was an employee at the time
9 Chuck Smrt, interviewed Andre McGee. Cox 9 so we acknowledge that in "A". In "B", he
10 participated in McGee's interview. At that time 10 didn't cooperate, he was gone from the
11 Katina Powell's book, "Breaking Cardinal Rules", 11 University by that time, so we don't believe we
12 had not been released so the institution was 12 have any liability for that. We have
13 conducting an interview absent many of the facts 13 disassociated him permanently from the athletics
14 obtained through the collaborative 14 program.
15 investigation. 15 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
16 When asked by the institution, McGee 16 The cookie pause is here so it shouldn't take
17 denied arranging and paying for adult 17 but just a few seconds. Mr. Smrt, you can
18 entertainment and sex acts for prospects and 18 continue.
19 student-athletes. 19 MR. SMRT: I have been interrupted
20 On February 10, 2016, the enforcement 20 many times at hearings but never by a cookie
21 staff spoke to Cox and requested an interview 21 lady.
22 with and telephone records from McGee. Cox 22 So we disassociated McGee permanently
23 stated that McGee would not interview with the 23 from the program both for his involvement in the
24 enforcement staff or provide copies of his 24 violations and his lack of cooperation. So,
25 telephone records due to a pending criminal 25 that's all we have to add at this point.
Page 171 Page 173
1 investigation related to the subject matter of 1 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
2 the institution and enforcement staff's 2 Thank you. Panel, any questions?
3 investigation. 3 All right, fine. Then we will move on
4 On June 1st the enforcement staff 4 to Allegation 3.
5 again spoke to Cox a second time and renewed its 5 MR. STROTHKAMP: Thank you, Madam
6 request. The enforcement staff also requested 6 Chair. Allegation No. 3 addresses Brandon
7 bank records from McGee. Cox again informed the 7 Williams, a former men's basketball program
8 enforcement staff that McGee would not provide 8 assistant, failure to provide the institution
9 any of the requested information or participate 9 and enforcement staff cellular telephone texts
10 in an interview due to the same pending criminal 10 and call records for a four-month period during
11 investigation. 11 the collaborative investigation into violations
12 As a result, McGee failed to satisfy 12 of NCAA legislation.
13 his responsibility to cooperate by refusing to 13 Williams disputes this allegation and
14 furnish information relevant to an investigation 14 has not stated whether he agrees with the cited
15 of possible NCAA legislation. 15 level. The institution takes no formal position
16 The responsibility to cooperate is 16 on the allegation as Williams was no longer a
17 paramount to a full and complete investigation, 17 staff member at the institution when the alleged
18 which the membership has identified as critical 18 failure to cooperate occurred.
19 to the common interest of the Association. 19 However, the institution agrees that
20 McGee declined to respond to these 20 the enforcement staff's request for Williams'
21 allegations so this Hearing Panel may view his 21 cellular telephone records was consistent with
22 decision not to respond as an admission that the 22 applicable NCAA legislation. That Williams
23 alleged violation occurred. 23 refused to provide his cellular telephone
24 This concludes the enforcement staff's 24 records when requested to do so on several
25 presentation of Allegation No. 2. 25 occasions by the institution and enforcement
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1 staff and Williams should have provided his
2 cellular telephone records.
3 The violation seriously undermines or
4 threatens the Collegiate Model and that is
5 unethical conduct violation that involved a
6 former men's basketball staff member's failure
7 to cooperate in an enforcement investigation.
8 The responsibility to cooperate is
9 paramount to a full and complete investigation
10 which the membership has identified as critical
11 to the common interest of the Association.
12 On May 12th, 2016, the enforcement
13 staff requested Williams' cellular telephone
14 call and text message records for a four-month
15 period from the institution. At that time the
16 institution informed the enforcement staff that
17 Williams was no longer its employee.
18 As such, the enforcement staff sent
19 the records request directly to Williams at his
20 home address in Miami on May 20th and asked that
21 the records be provided to the enforcement staff
22 by May 27th. Williams did not submit the
23 records.
24 On June 2nd Williams informed the
25 enforcement staff in writing that he had not
Page 175
1 decided whether he would provide the records.
2 Four days later, on June 6th, the enforcement
3 staff sent the second request to Williams for
4 copies of his records and asked that the records
5 be provided to the enforcement staff by June
6 10th. Williams again did not submit the
7 records.
8 The enforcement staff sent the third
9 request to Williams for copies of his records
10 and that the records be provided to the
11 enforcement staff by July 11. The request also
12 provided Williams the opportunity to inform the
13 enforcement staff by July 11th if he preferred
14 the enforcement staff to obtain his records
15 through an executed release form.
16 Williams did not submit the requested
17 records or indicate whether he preferred the
18 enforcement staff to obtain his records by that
19 date.
20 On August 14th Williams was
21 interviewed for a second time by the institution
22 and enforcement staff. Williams stated that he
23 would not provide copies of his records or
24 execute a release to allow the enforcement staff
25 to obtain the records. He was afforded an
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1 opportunity to state his reason for not
2 providing the records or executing a release but
3 he declined to do so. As a result, Williams
4 failed to satisfy his responsibility to
5 cooperate by refusing to furnish cellular
6 telephone call or text message records that were
7 relevant to an investigation of possible
8 violations of NCAA legislation.
9 Williams does not assert that he
10 provided the requested records. Instead, in his
11 initial response Williams claims for the first
12 time that the enforcement staff's request for
13 his records was an unreasonable and
14 inappropriate fishing expedition made without a
15 good faith basis to believe the demands would
16 yield evidence relevant to this investigation.
17 Williams did not raise his objections
18 with the enforcement staff at the time of the
19 request, and even if this were the appropriate
20 time to introduce objections to the scope of the
21 document request, his position is without merit.
22 As the institution notes, the
23 enforcement staff's request for Williams'
24 records was consistent with applicable NCAA
25 legislation. The enforcement staff made its
Page 177
1 request based on Williams' statements in April
2 of 2016 interview about a lack of contact with
3 Andre McGee and Steven Reece, individuals
4 involved in violations of NCAA legislation as
5 outlined in Allegation No. 1-o.
6 Also based on the limited contents
7 obtained from the mirror image of Williams'
8 cellular telephone that he provided to the
9 institution as it was not the telephone Williams
10 had during the four-month period of the records
11 request that was made.
12 And Williams fitting the description
13 provided by Katina Powell of a muscular, nice
14 build, light skinned African-American male who
15 appeared older than a student-athlete in his mid
16 twenties and was shorter than six foot one tall
17 who provided $200 to her outside Minardi on July
18 22nd, 2014, coupled with a Brantley Security
19 Services form for Minardi that same day that
20 identified Williams as exiting and re-entering
21 through a rear door of Minardi at 10:05 p.m.
22 Eastern Time.
23 Specifically, the enforcement staff
24 requested Williams' cellular telephone call and
25 text message records to determine whether he was
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1 involved in or had any knowledge of NCAA rules 1 The staff is not suggesting what the
2 violations and to verify the veracity of his 2 COI should do in this instance, but we remain
3 prior statements. 3 concerned about inappropriate leaks. We can
4 The request was designed to uncover 4 return to discussions about the merits of
5 information relevant to potential violations of 5 Allegation 3, but we want to make clear,
6 NCAA rules and was narrowly tailored to a four- 6 especially for this Committee but also for the
7 month period to assist all parties, including 7 institution, that the enforcement staff complied
8 this Hearing Panel in concluding whether any 8 with all confidentiality bylaws, all
9 such violations occurred. 9 confidentiality operating procedures and all
10 In his supplemental response, Williams 10 confidentiality instructions from this
11 now claims that he had no authority to produce 11 Committee.
12 the records as the account belonged to and was 12 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you,
13 controlled by his mother. Williams did not 13 Mr. Duncan. Is there an institutional response?
14 inform the enforcement staff of this in his June 14 MR. SMRT: Yes, just a couple of quick
15 2nd, 2016, letter in response to the initial 15 brief points. We hoped Brandon would have
16 records request nor did he provide this as the 16 cooperated with the enforcement staff's request.
17 reason for not providing the records or 17 We encouraged him to provide the telephone
18 executing the release form when asked during his 18 records. As you know, he provided bank records
19 August 14th interview. 19 and those were provided after he had left. And
20 Williams failed to meet his 20 we appreciated that he provided the bank
21 responsibility to cooperate, a responsibility 21 records.
22 that is paramount to a full and complete 22 My conversations with Brandon, and
23 investigation. 23 Brandon and I have had a very good relationship
24 This concludes the presentation of 24 throughout this, my conversations were twofold.
25 Allegation No. 3. However, at this time Mr. 25 During his interview when the enforcement staff
Page 179 Page 181
1 Duncan has some additional comments to make. 1 started going down the path of whether he came
2 MR. DUNCAN: Thank you. As the Panel 2 out to meet Katina Powell behind Minardi, and
3 may know, a copy of Brandon Williams' full 3 there was nothing -- that per se is not being
4 response to the Notice of Allegations was leaked 4 alleged even in No. 1. But that money was given
5 to the media and published. I would also note 5 to her is.
6 that there are two reporters outside the hearing 6 But during the interview, when that
7 room today. 7 conversation came up, I stopped the interview,
8 Leaks of information like this are 8 and I asked Brandon to come outside. And so in
9 contrary to longstanding NCAA legislation, 9 the hallway I said, "Brandon, if you gave money
10 contrary to operating procedures approved by the 10 to Katina Powell, the school wants to know about
11 Division I Board of Directors and contrary to 11 it and we will deal with this situation. That
12 the clear instructions from this Committee. 12 if you did this and you were asked, then we want
13 The enforcement staff is concerned 13 to know who told you to do this."
14 when confidential information is leaked, and we 14 Brandon said, "I didn't give her any
15 understand that the potential sources of such 15 money." I said, "Fine, let's go back and
16 sensitive information are limited. In this 16 finish the interview."
17 case, very few people had access to Mr. 17 So, Brandon was consistent with that
18 Williams' response and some of them are seated 18 during when I took him in the hall and had, you
19 to my left at this table. 19 know, come forth, if you have it, we want to
20 Accordingly, we conducted an internal 20 know the truth.
21 inquiry to make sure that we were not involved 21 And then the second had to do with his
22 in or responsible for the improper disclosure of 22 bank records where I went to Miami, and Brandon
23 confidential case-related information. We are 23 and I visited about three banks and got all of
24 satisfied, I am satisfied that the leak did not 24 his bank records upon the request of the
25 come from us. 25 enforcement staff to the institution.
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1 There is no allegation that Brandon
2 provided money to Powell. Obviously, that's the
3 key, the leg into this allegation. But I want
4 to make clear, there was no allegation that
5 Brandon did that.
6 As far as the Brantley Security form
7 that Mark alluded to, that is correct, but that
8 is at 10:00 o'clock at night. Katina Powell
9 said she went there at 7:00 o'clock, not at
10 10:00 o'clock at night. So to the extent that
11 the record is full that Powell said she went
12 over there before she went to the Embassy
13 Suites, they did whatever they did, and then she
14 left and went back. The security form says
15 10:00 o'clock, which if you believe Powell,
16 everything was over by that time. Just so that
17 piece is into the record.
18 So, again, Brandon was gone by the
19 time of his failure to cooperate. We don't
20 believe there is any institutional
21 responsibility for the institution.
22 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
23 Mr. Williams.
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Pete is going to speak.
25 MR. GINSBERG: Thank you. I would
Page 183
1 like to address a few preliminary matters before
2 I address the rebuttal to the allegations.
3 First of all, if NCAA enforcement had
4 had the professional decency to ask me about
5 what they perceived to be leaks, it may have
6 alleviated their concerns and expanded the scope
7 of people it could have taken out of the loop of
8 its concerns.
9 But I will tell the Committee I
10 received an e-mail yesterday from the media
11 asking me where in Kansas City the hearing was
12 going to occur, and I did not respond to that.
13 So I don't know who told the media where we were
14 going to be, but I just provided the full extent
15 of my response to the media.
16 The NCAA continues to confuse the
17 record. It refers to these phone records as
18 Brandon's records. They were not Brandon's
19 records, they were his mother's records. And
20 for the NCAA to suggest that he declines to give
21 the reasons for not turning over those phone
22 records, that's not truthful.
23 Mr. Williams told the University
24 representative they were his mother's records,
25 they were his mother's phone, and there is
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1 correspondence from Mr. Smrt and the NCAA
2 referencing the fact that the phone records were
3 his mother's.
4 I am going to ask the Panel to
5 consider the recent decision about Southern
6 Mississippi and a very similar situation.
7 Brandon could not turn over the one piece of
8 evidence that is the basis for the failure to
9 cooperate allegation.
10 The NCAA also is misleading with
11 regard to the telephone. Brandon was asked to
12 turn over his telephone while he was still at
13 Louisville, and he immediately turned over the
14 telephone. It was not for months that the NCAA
15 raised the issue of the records as opposed to
16 his phone. Brandon gave the NCAA everything
17 that he could provide with regard to that phone,
18 the phone itself. The NCAA took a mirror image
19 of that phone. He did all that he could.
20 And with regard to these security
21 records that the NCAA apparently is using to
22 cast dispersions upon Brandon and Katina Powell.
23 Not only does that record to which the NCAA is
24 referring show Mr. Williams going in and out
25 three hours after the event in question, but the
Page 185
1 NCAA has not provided in the record to you the
2 security log, and it has never provided it to
3 me.
4 And I suggest the reason why the NCAA
5 enforcement has decided, (a), to mischaracterize
6 the records and, (b), to keep those records from
7 us is that Brandon lived at Minardi Hall, and
8 those records, if the NCAA were to show all of
9 us the truthful, accurate picture, would have
10 shown that Brandon went in and out of Minardi
11 Hall dozens of times a day, to his car, to the
12 rest of campus.
13 If the NCAA truly cared about the
14 truthfulness and accuracy of this investigation,
15 it wouldn't take a piece of evidence,
16 mischaracterize it as to time and relevancy and
17 keep from us similar but far greater evidence
18 showing how meaningless, how innocuous that one
19 piece of evidence used to proffer that innuendo
20 truly is.
21 That really gets me to the three
22 issues that I want to address with regard to
23 Allegation 3. One is the nature of the
24 allegation. Two is Brandon's fulfillment of his
25 obligations. And the third issue really
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1 permeates the first two, and that is the
2 integrity of this process as it was applied to
3 Brandon.
4 So, the Panel is aware, apparently the
5 NCAA didn't think it was sufficient and that it
6 was important enough to educate the Panel about
7 this. Brandon's role as a graduate assistant
8 started on June of 2014 and ended on May 2nd,
9 2016. He did not overlap with Andre McGee. He
10 didn't live at Minardi Hall when Andre McGee was
11 there. He had one brief encounter with Mr.
12 McGee at a food establishment in Louisville that
13 lasted a matter of a minute or two, and they
14 never communicated at any other time, ever.
15 I would have thought the NCAA would
16 have educated you as to that fact, but
17 apparently it did not feel it was relevant to
18 the allegations. And that's because the
19 allegation of lack of cooperation relates to
20 information that is so attenuated and so
21 irrelevant that I think what the NCAA is
22 basically saying to you is that the evidence
23 doesn't matter, the relevancy doesn't matter,
24 whether we had a good faith basis to make demand
25 after demand after demand on Brandon doesn't
Page 187
1 matter, what matters is when we asked him for
2 something, he didn't give it to us so we should
3 call him unethical, we should stigmatize him
4 forever because we are the NCAA enforcement and
5 that is enough. And that truly is offensive.
6 The nature of the allegation is that
7 after months of cooperating, after months of
8 giving record after record after record and
9 sitting for interviews, no matter how irrelevant
10 the requests were, on May 20th, 2016, for the
11 first time, months, as I said, after Brandon had
12 already turned over the phone in question,
13 months after he had made that phone available
14 for mirror imaging, all of a sudden the NCAA
15 said, well, wait a minute, we want the phone
16 records as well.
17 As I said, that request came after a
18 long history of cooperation, cooperation that
19 lasted about half a year, and even lasted after
20 Brandon left the University of Louisville.
21 In March Brandon got a call from
22 Louisville and said we need your telephone,
23 there is this investigation going on, and
24 without hesitation, without delay, certainly
25 without any alteration or deletion, Brandon gave
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1 to Louisville his phone. This is the same phone
2 that we are talking about with regard to the
3 records.
4 It was a phone that was private. It
5 wasn't paid for by Louisville. Most, if not
6 all, of its usage was for private business. But
7 Brandon was asked to cooperate and give his
8 phone and he did.
9 He was asked for bank records, I
10 submit without any good faith basis, but the
11 NCAA was sure there was something somewhere that
12 would somehow implicate either Brandon or some
13 other African-American male at the University of
14 Louisville. So Brandon turned over records from
15 three banks.
16 And to jump forward, was there a
17 single document, a single entry that has
18 anything to do with this investigation? I ask
19 that rhetorically, but the answer is serious.
20 The answer is no. Was there a single indication
21 on his telephone that Brandon had anything to do
22 with this investigation? The answer is no.
23 Brandon was interviewed on April 13th,
24 2016. Once again he was a willing participant.
25 As I mentioned in my opening, he didn't have
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1 counsel, and that I do think is a failing in the
2 process. Mr. Smrt had to wear two hats.
3 From Brandon's position, he thought he
4 had counsel there, and I don't say that as a
5 criticism of Chuck. But for a guy who is never
6 been in this position before, it was confusing.
7 And so he thought that when he said, for
8 instance, shortly thereafter to Mr. Smrt, well,
9 the phone records are my mom's, that that would
10 be communicated to the NCAA in a way that
11 perhaps private counsel would have communicated,
12 writing a letter setting forth that fact very
13 specifically.
14 But the topics that were covered at
15 that April 13th, 2016, interview are important.
16 The NCAA asked as many questions as it wanted
17 about the cell phone and the use of the cell
18 phone, using the mirror images and the records
19 from that cell phone, and I don't mean the
20 physical records, I mean whatever they could
21 take from the telephone.
22 They asked Brandon specifically as
23 many questions as they wanted to ask about his
24 electronic communications. They asked him about
25 his Chase Bank records, his Higher One Bank
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1 records, his Bank of America bank records, and
2 he answered all of the questions to the best of
3 his ability.
4 They asked Brandon about the
5 administration of the basketball program and his
6 role in it. Any question they wanted to ask,
7 Brandon answered. They asked Brandon about the
8 compliance program. They may not have liked
9 what they heard, but Brandon made it absolutely
10 clear that Coach Pitino set strict standards and
11 there was nothing that was going to make Brandon
12 deviate from those standards and he did nothing
13 to deviate him from those standards.
14 They asked Brandon about Minardi Hall
15 where Brandon was living. They asked him about
16 the access records. They asked him about
17 recruits of high school prospects. They asked
18 him about specific recruits, about AAU coaches,
19 and Brandon answered each and every question
20 truthfully.
21 They asked him about Katina Powell's
22 accusations, and Brandon truthfully said I had
23 no idea. I have now heard, since she has made
24 those accusations, but I don't know anyone who
25 was involved, I wasn't involved, and if I knew
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1 about it, I would have told the assistant
2 coaches about it.
3 They asked Brandon about some of the
4 assistant coaches' phone records showing
5 communications from coaches to Brandon. And
6 Brandon said these guys are my friends, of
7 course, there are phone records that show that I
8 was talking to the assistant coaches. But not
9 about Andre McGee or anything of that sort.
10 And they asked Brandon whether he was
11 the person who gave $200 to the person in the
12 van on July 22nd, and in a ha-ha moment, I catch
13 you, gotcha moment, he said, "Now, Brandon, if
14 we were going to show you a bank record showing
15 that you withdrew $200 on July 22nd, what would
16 you say then?" And Brandon said you'll find no
17 such record. I didn't withdraw $200 and I
18 didn't give $200. And that smoke question hit
19 the enforcement folks in the face because with
20 all the records Brandon gave to enforcement from
21 three different accounts, there was no
22 withdrawal, there was no evidence of any money
23 going to Brandon or from Brandon on July 22nd.
24 As I said before, they showed to
25 Brandon, and I don't know this because
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1 enforcement has decided that I shouldn't see it
2 even though I am Brandon's attorney. But they
3 showed Brandon this security guard record that
4 showed him going out of Minardi Hall at 10:00
5 o'clock on the night of July 22nd.
6 I really don't know if enforcement
7 made it up or simply wanted to misrepresent what
8 that record showed, but as I said, it was three
9 hours off and didn't show Brandon's records for
10 the expansive time period because it would have
11 shown Brandon going in and out of the dorm day
12 in and day out. But it is worth noting that
13 this one document enforcement didn't even show
14 to you for your consideration.
15 During the time period that Brandon
16 was cooperating, he had multiple communications
17 with the University representatives as he was
18 trying to cooperate.
19 And by the time he left Louisville on
20 May 2nd, there wasn't a suggestion that he had
21 not fully cooperated, no indication. And that's
22 because he had fully cooperated except there was
23 one set of Bank of America records that he could
24 not remotely access. The Bank of America branch
25 was in Florida and was the one piece of missing
Page 193
1 information. So when Brandon got to Florida, he
2 got ahold of those records and provided them to
3 the University. And Mr. Smrt made a trip down
4 to Florida to gather whatever records were
5 missing. Full and complete cooperation.
6 To the NCAA's frustration, it couldn't
7 find anything to inculpate Brandon so, as I
8 said, they asked for more records, he gave them
9 to them, then they asked for Brandon's mom's
10 records relating to the phone he had already
11 provided.
12 There is a May 12th, 2016, letter from
13 Mr. Smrt to the NCAA that refers to Brandon's
14 mom. There can't be any doubt that everyone
15 involved knew that that phone was on Brandon's
16 mom's account.
17 By the time the request was made in
18 late May for this phone record upon which the
19 NCAA is trying to hang Brandon, he had moved to
20 Florida, as I said, he was running a high school
21 basketball team and a student outreach team. He
22 had been scrutinized and accused in the media of
23 being associated with a prostitution ring at the
24 University of Louisville.
25 His boss had called him in and
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1 threatened to take away his job working in the
2 intercity schools of Miami. He didn't have
3 counsel or anyone to reach out to, and he was
4 scared and he was angry, and from what I
5 understand about Brandon's mom, you can multiply
6 that by ten.
7 Because Brandon's mom made it clear,
8 no more. You can do what you want, I am not
9 getting my family involved in this, you tell the
10 NCAA to take its request for my records, and I
11 won't finish the sentence, but the bottom line
12 was that Brandon was told he couldn't turn over
13 the records.
14 NCAA Bylaw 19.5.1 says that the
15 enforcement staff is only permitted to obtain
16 and investigate "relevant information." It
17 can't go on a fishing expedition. It can't
18 month after month without good faith make more
19 and more demands.
20 I would like to read to you the
21 rationalization that the NCAA has used to
22 continue to harass Brandon for more information.
23 It's on Page 22 of the enforcement group's March
24 17th written reply to our submission.
25 "Based on Williams' statements in his
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1 April 2016 interview about his lack of contact
2 with individuals involved in Allegation 1-o,
3 coupled with the limited contents obtained from
4 the mirror image of Williams' cellular telephone
5 and Williams fitting the description of the
6 individual who provided $200 to Powell outside
7 of Minardi in July 2014, the enforcement staff
8 requested Williams' cellular telephone and text
9 message records from the institution on May
10 12th."
11 Let's address each of those supposed
12 bases for asking for the phone records. The
13 first rationalization was that the request was
14 based on Williams' statement in April 2016 about
15 his lack of contact with individuals mentioned
16 in Allegation 1-o. Not surprisingly, but
17 certain disappointingly, the NCAA gave no more
18 information than that. It didn't provide the
19 identity of the people about whom Brandon
20 supposedly gave them reasons for concern, they
21 simply said, well, he said he didn't have
22 contact with unnamed people and that causes us,
23 NCAA enforcement, to have suspicions.
24 While at Louisville, Brandon had
25 interaction with the following people who are
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1 noted as having some involvement in the
2 investigation: Mike Balado, Antonio Blakeley,
3 Kevin Johnson, Chris Jones, Wyking Jones,
4 Mangkok Mathiang, Andre McGee, Chinanu Onuaku,
5 David Padgett, Rick Pitino, Steve Reece, Terry
6 Rozier, Peyton Siva, Russ Smith, William Turner,
7 Anton Gill, Kenny Johnson and Gabriel
8 Cardahanas.
9 There is, members of the Panel, no
10 suggestion that any of those people, a single
11 one of those people, gave a single piece of
12 information inculpating Brandon in any way in
13 this investigation, not a scintilla of evidence
14 that even remotely suggested that Brandon was
15 involved in the subject matter of this
16 investigation.
17 No one told the NCAA of all of those
18 people about any contact with Brandon if Brandon
19 did not describe when asked, and none of those
20 people said anything that could have supported
21 suspicion or ongoing demands for information.
22 And let me give you an example of how
23 attenuated the NCAA's evaluation of that matter
24 is. Brandon said at his first interview that he
25 had one brief meeting, not a meeting, he met
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1 once briefly with Andre McGee. The NCAA
2 characterized Brandon's testimony as the
3 following: That Brandon couldn't recall whether
4 he had had contact with McGee after that first
5 meeting. That is not truthful.
6 What Brandon said was not that he
7 could not recall whether or not he had further
8 meetings, he said no, I have no recollection of
9 ever meeting or talking to Andre McGee again.
10 But the NCAA took that statement, no, I met him
11 once, and to the best of my knowledge I never
12 talked to him or saw him, communicate with him
13 ever again, and misdescribed it as saying, well,
14 he doesn't remember whether he did or he didn't.
15 That's not what fair investigators do.
16 And McGee was interviewed. Now, I don't know
17 what McGee said because no one has given me that
18 information either, but I will bet you that
19 McGee didn't mention Brandon in that interview,
20 and I will bet you there is not anybody who ever
21 told the NCAA enforcement that they ever saw
22 Brandon and Andre together or had anything to do
23 with each other.
24 The NCAA in its allegation talked
25 about a person named Cardahanas, and Brandon
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1 acknowledged receiving a thousand dollars from
2 him. Brandon went back and forth to Miami and
3 frequently didn't have enough money. Cardahanas
4 was a person who Brandon met through his best
5 friend. He's a quite wealthy guy.
6 Brandon went to his restaurant and
7 said, hey, listen, can I do some work for you?
8 He said I have got to get home to Miami and I
9 need some money. And he said you are buddy with
10 my buddy, I will give you a thousand bucks. If
11 you can pay me back some day, fine. And he
12 write a check. And there is an inconsistency
13 about why, I will grant you that. Cardahanas
14 has told the NCAA apparently because he wrote
15 the word sponsorship on it, on the check, that
16 Brandon had said he needed a thousand dollars
17 for a charity. Brandon adamantly denies that.
18 I don't need to talk about Mr.
19 Cardahana's tax records or why he would have
20 wanted to put "sponsorship" on the check. But
21 you should know that for some reason the NCAA
22 wanted to try to taint Brandon with that back
23 and forth with Mr. Cardahanas. That occurred
24 after this July 22nd passing of the $200. No
25 one has suggested that the thousand dollars that
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1 Brandon received was for anything but so he
2 could go to Miami.
3 Mr. Cardahanas at some point
4 apparently became a Booster for the University
5 of Louisville, but it was well after the event.
6 It had nothing to do with the thousand dollars.
7 It was irrelevant. I have got to say for the
8 NCAA enforcement to even put a description of
9 that back and forth with Cardahanas in the
10 record could only have been as a rationalization
11 for why they were continuing to go after Brandon
12 for these records and why they felt they had a
13 right to. But it is irrelevant, it is
14 absolutely irrelevant to this situation.
15 The NCAA has used as a rationalization
16 for asking for these records that Brandon didn't
17 tell them about any communication or contact he
18 had with Steven Reece and there is a reason for
19 that. Brandon has never seen, spoken to,
20 communicated with or met Steven Reece. No one
21 has ever told NCAA enforcement anything to the
22 contrary. I don't know for sure, but I think
23 Mr. Reece was interviewed, but the NCAA didn't
24 bother to give me the transcript of the
25 interview, but I can bet you if Mr. Reece had
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1 even suggested that he ever met Brandon, it
2 would be in the record.
3 The second rationalization for asking
4 more and more and more of Brandon and ultimately
5 for his mother phone records was that the phone
6 that Brandon turned over, and to which the
7 records apply, provided to the NCAA, to use its
8 language, "Limited contents obtained from the
9 mirror image of Williams' cellular telephone."
10 And I submit to you that the
11 translation of that fancy phraseology used, that
12 they took the information and it yielded no
13 inculpatory evidence so there must be something
14 more. The reason there was nothing inculpatory
15 on that phone is there is nothing inculpatory.
16 The reason the NCAA waited another
17 three months to ask for the phone records I
18 can't tell you except it strikes me as
19 indicative of the fact that the phone records
20 were as irrelevant as any of the other
21 information that the NCAA was continually asking
22 Brandon to produce.
23 And I think it's important for me to
24 remind the Panel that Brandon turned over that
25 phone immediately when asked, without an
Page 201
1 opportunity of deletion, alteration or anything
2 of the sort. If there had been any kind of
3 deletion or alteration after being asked to turn
4 over the phone, we would know about it and the
5 NCAA would have told us about it.
6 The third rationalization for asking
7 for his mother phone records is that the NCAA
8 was suspicious of Brandon because he fit the
9 description of the individual who provided $200
10 to Powell outside of Minardi Hall on July 22nd.
11 Now, NCAA Bylaw 19.5.9 obligated
12 enforcement, imposed upon enforcement an
13 affirmative obligation to produce "factual
14 information pertinent to the case." If one of
15 the linchpins for making the demand on Brandon
16 for these phone records was that he fit this
17 description, how can the NCAA enforcement staff
18 stand before you and say that that was a reason
19 we were suspicious of Brandon, but we are not
20 going to give, to me at least, the factual
21 information pertinent to that accusation which
22 was the information about the photo array that I
23 described earlier. That is such an obvious
24 breach of its responsibilities that I suggest
25 that it casts a shadow over everything that's
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1 being done to Brandon in this matter.
2 The NCAA rationalizes, as I said
3 earlier, that the fact that Ms. Powell looked at
4 the photos and said that Brandon wasn't the
5 person who gave the money to her isn't relevant
6 according to the NCAA enforcement because the
7 allegation isn't that he gave the money that
8 night, but that he failed to cooperate.
9 That, and I use rationalization
10 because I am in good company and trying to be
11 polite, but that rationalization ignores that
12 enforcement was without a good faith basis to
13 ask for anything because there was no good faith
14 suspicion.
15 Not only did they not have a good
16 faith basis to make any requests, and certainly
17 any further requests of Brandon, because each of
18 its rationalizations is so specious. But I
19 submit that in any other tribunal, enforcement
20 would be sanctioned, and severely sanctioned,
21 for keeping that kind of information from
22 Brandon, from hiding that kind of evidence from
23 Brandon, from putting Brandon through this.
24 We didn't learn about the NCAA's
25 failure to provide the information about the
Page 203
1 photo array until March 23rd, 2017, as we were
2 finishing Brandon's supplemental submission, not
3 even his first submission.
4 I don't need to describe again that
5 photo array and what the photo array yielded,
6 but it doesn't stand in isolation that that
7 information wasn't provided to us because the
8 NCAA also didn't provide to us any transcripts
9 from the security guards who were on duty on
10 July 22nd and they certainly, I assume, were
11 interviewed.
12 They were probably shown photos and
13 asked who went in and out of Minardi Hall around
14 7:00 o'clock, three hours earlier obviously than
15 Brandon did. They didn't give us any
16 information about those photo arrays. I would
17 have hoped they were thorough enough to have
18 done that.
19 They didn't give us, as I said,
20 transcripts of interviews with Reece or Blakeney
21 or Powell. I would assume that there were
22 surveillance videos in and around Minardi Hall,
23 which would have shown us what occurred on July
24 22nd. Enforcement didn't give those to us
25 either.
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1 The description of the person from Ms.
2 Powell apparently who gave her the money was a
3 person who was African-American male, light
4 skinned and well built. I won't make fun of
5 Brandon, but I must say that around the
6 basketball program and even among the coaches,
7 Brandon's not all that well built. He is about
8 five-nine, 160, 170 pounds.
9 You can make your own judgment whether
10 Brandon is light skinned or not. We stipulate
11 that he's an African-American. But on that, the
12 NCAA thinks it has a good faith basis after
13 Powell said that he wasn't the person who gave
14 her the money, on that the NCAA thinks it has a
15 good faith basis to continue to make demand
16 after demand on Brandon.
17 And despite all these ongoing demands,
18 I may have forgotten to make this point, well
19 after Brandon had left Louisville, he sat for
20 yet a second interview because he wanted to
21 cooperate, and he respected Mr. Smrt, and Mr.
22 Smrt asked him to cooperate, and he did
23 cooperate and he continued to cooperate except
24 for the one piece of evidence he didn't have the
25 right to cooperate with.
Page 205
1 And that really brings us to what I
2 think is a dispositive issue. There is
3 obviously the concept in civil law that
4 impossibility of performance. These phone
5 records weren't Brandon's to produce.
6 What is it that affords NCAA
7 enforcement the power, the authority, the gall
8 to say that Brandon is unethical despite not a
9 scintilla of evidence implicating him in this
10 God-awful investigation? There is not a person,
11 not a bank record, not a cell phone, nothing
12 except for the fact that Brandon couldn't get
13 his mom to give permission to produce some
14 records.
15 It still wouldn't have yielded any
16 relevant information based upon a demand that
17 was, at best, a fishing expedition. There was
18 no basis, no good faith basis for sure to
19 continue to suspect Brandon or to continue to
20 make demands on him.
21 You would think the NCAA enforcement
22 would be familiar with its own website. There
23 is a section called "Enforcement Process
24 Investigations." Far more pertinent than some
25 of the other inquiries that were made earlier,
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1 perhaps the NCAA enforcement should be asked if
2 they are asked, each and every one of them, if
3 they have looked at their own websites and their
4 own dictates about how to proceed.
5 There is a frequently asked question
6 on the website. "Does the NCAA have powers
7 similar to the legal system?" Answer: "No.
8 The enforcement staff cannot subpoena witnesses
9 or wield the power of discovery," and it goes
10 on.
11 "NCAA cannot compel those outside of
12 its jurisdiction (parents of student-athletes)
13 to cooperate in an investigation, in the
14 investigative process."
15 And the Appeals Panel of the NCAA, in
16 the Southern Mississippi investigation just last
17 week emphasized that point. The Appeals Panel
18 has now made it crystal clear, which it already
19 had been crystal clear to enforcement, that it
20 could not force Brandon to force his mother, and
21 it could not force Brandon's mother to produce
22 the single records that it had not received that
23 it wanted.
24 Brandon, in fact, satisfied every
25 single request that was within his power. NCAA
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1 enforcement had interviewed dozens and dozens of
2 people, gathered extensive records, phone, e-
3 mail, texts not only from Brandon, but
4 presumably from everyone else within its
5 authority; and none of those records, none of
6 those records showed that Brandon was in any way
7 involved in the matters underlying this
8 investigation, not a single witness, not a
9 single record, not a video, not a photo, nothing
10 has inculpated Brandon.
11 Article 19.7.8.3 of the NCAA operating
12 bylaws says that information substantiating an
13 allegation must be "credible, persuasive and of
14 a kind which reasonably prudent persons rely on
15 in the conduct of serious affairs." That's
16 basically a clear and convincing standard.
17 This matter is serious, but the way,
18 frankly, that Brandon has been compromised by it
19 is shameful. Based on this record, enforcement
20 has asked you to strip him of his ability to
21 make contributions to his community, to serve as
22 a mentor to these high school kids in intercity
23 Miami, a place where he grew up, a place that he
24 cares deeply about, the kids he cares deeply
25 about, based on this record, based on all that
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1 Brandon did to do everything he could to
2 cooperate, to hold himself up as the kind of
3 person that the University of Louisville is so
4 proud to have associated with it? I submit this
5 really is shameful. Thank you.
6 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
7 Mr. Williams, do you have anything that you wish
8 to add at this time?
9 MR. WILLIAMS: No, thank you.
10 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: All right.
11 Then it's an opportunity for the Panel for make
12 any inquiries that they wish to make. Does
13 anybody have a question?
14 MR. STROTHKAMP: Madam Chair, if I
15 could interject. There was a lot of information
16 provided by Mr. Ginsberg. If I could address
17 some of the things that he brought forth to the
18 Committee as well as some of the statements that
19 Mr. Smrt made.
20 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Please go
21 ahead, assuming these are things you haven't
22 already said.
23 MR. STROTHKAMP: They are not.
24 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
25 MR. STROTHKAMP: First, starting with
Page 209
1 Katina Powell in the interview summary that's
2 been referenced a few times now regarding the
3 time that Ms. Powell stated she met an
4 individual outside of Minardi Hall. Mr. Smrt,
5 along with the enforcement staff, we drafted the
6 interview summary because she did not allow us
7 to record the interview.
8 Mr. Smrt had an opportunity to review
9 and interject and provide additions, and I would
10 direct the Committee to Page 2 of that interview
11 summary regarding when she met the individual
12 outside of Minardi and it states, "Katina Powell
13 recalled meeting this individual when it was
14 dark outside and estimated the time to be
15 between approximately 7:00 and 7:30 p.m. Eastern
16 Time."
17 She was not certain it was between
18 7:00 and 7:30.. In fact, we also interviewed
19 her daughter, Abraeshea Moorman, who went with
20 her to the Embassy Suites that evening.
21 Abraeshea Moorman in her interview stated that
22 she was picked up by Ms. Powell anywhere between
23 7:00 and 9:00 p.m. But as she stated in that
24 interview, she was certain that it was dark
25 outside when she met this individual. And in
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1 July, in most places in the Midwest, it's not 1 first meeting.
2 quite dark between 7:00 and 7:30 p.m. 2 Mr. Ginsberg put forth that that is
3 In addition, Mr. Ginsberg talks about, 3 not what Mr. Williams stated in his interview.
4 and I think it's important to understand the 4 However, in his interview on April 13th, 2016,
5 timeline of when the request for the mirror 5 on Page 20 of that interview, he was asked by
6 image was made versus when we received the 6 Mr. Leffler, "Other than the one occasion in the
7 contents along with when we interviewed Mr. 7 summer of 2014, have you had any contact with
8 Williams for the first time. 8 McGee at all?"
9 Mr. Williams did provide his telephone 9 Mr. Williams responded, "I don't
10 to the institution for a mirror image to be 10 recall, no, I don't because he never came back,
11 made, and that was in early March when that 11 he never came back here. We changed numbers
12 occurred in 2016. We then received the contents 12 that night. I do remember exchanging numbers
13 of that mirror image on March 31st of 2016, and 13 that night. Besides that, no, because he never
14 then interviewed Mr. Williams, along with 14 came back."
15 several other men's basketball staff members, in 15 He is then asked by Mr. Leffler, "And
16 mid April. 16 after you exchanged numbers, did you ever have
17 During the course of Mr. Williams' 17 any telephone contact with him via text message
18 interview, when we started to get into the 18 or calls?"
19 contents that were found on his phone, he told 19 Brandon Williams responded, "Not that
20 us and reported to us that he had a new phone, 20 I remember."
21 that he had gotten that phone approximately one 21 Then it goes on later to explain that
22 to two months prior to the mirror image being 22 he deletes his phone numbers on occasion and he
23 made, hence the physical phone that he provided 23 could not remember when he deleted Mr. McGee's
24 to the institution for the mirror image to be 24 phone number from his telephone that he had at
25 made was not actually the physical phone during 25 that point.
Page 211 Page 213
1 the time that we were asking for the cell phone 1 He was then later asked in that same
2 records, that we eventually did ask for the cell 2 interview on Page 40 by Mr. Leffler, "And so the
3 phone records. 3 last time you ever communicated with Andre McGee
4 Mr. Ginsberg also refers to months 4 was the only time you communicated with him and
5 went by for us to make that cellular telephone 5 that was in the summer of 2014; is that
6 records' request. In fact, it was only about 6 accurate?"
7 six weeks, less than a month, that we made the 7 And Mr. Williams responded, "From what
8 initial request to the institution and then was 8 I remember, yes."
9 informed by the institution that Mr. Williams 9 So, he was not definitive on what his
10 was no longer there and we sent it to Mr. 10 contact was with McGee, but as outlined in our
11 Williams directly. 11 reply, Mr. McGee was certainly involved in all
12 Mr. Ginsberg also referenced about the 12 of the events in Allegation 1, and more
13 contact with McGee and Reece. He stated, and I 13 specifically as it relates to Allegation 1-o,
14 think he quoted from our response or our reply, 14 Mr. McGee was no longer a staff member at the
15 Page 22, where we said contact with individuals 15 University of Louisville.
16 outlined in 1-o. That's correct. 16 As Mr. Smrt has indicated, we were
17 On that page we do not discuss who 17 trying at the time to still make determination
18 those individuals are. However, when we get 18 as to where the funds were coming to engage in
19 into more detail and go into that point four 19 the activity that we have discussed previously
20 pages later, on Page 26 of our reply, we talk 20 in Allegation 1 as well as were there other
21 about how Mr. Williams specifically denied 21 individuals that were involved or had knowledge
22 having telephone and text communication with 22 of what was transpiring in Allegation 1.
23 Steven Reece and that he did have McGee's 23 Hence, the reason why with the limited
24 telephone number, but he could not recall 24 contacts, the lack of whether he had contact
25 whether he had any contact with McGee after that 25 with Mr. McGee or Mr. Reece and the fact that he
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1 did fit the description provided by Ms. Powell,
2 we thought it appropriate to make a request, a
3 limited request for four months of cell phone
4 records for us to make a determination whether
5 or not he actually had contact with Mr. McGee or
6 with Mr. Reece.
7 Now, Mr. Ginsberg also made a
8 representation, although be it secondhand, about
9 a photo array that we provided, that we
10 allegedly put in front of Ms. Powell. It was
11 not a photo array. We did show Ms. Powell
12 photos of several individuals throughout both of
13 her interviews to see if she had any
14 recollection of any of the individuals involved
15 in the various subparagraphs of Allegation 1.
16 That did include providing her some
17 photographs of individuals, and again on Page 2
18 of her March 7, 2016, interview summary, I would
19 like to read for the record what she states
20 about those photos.
21 "K. Powell reviewed a series of three
22 photographs and stated that Brandon Williams,
23 men's basketball program assistant, who was
24 depicted in Photograph 1 did not appear to be
25 the male she met outside of Minardi in July of
Page 215
1 2014, due to the photograph portraying Williams
2 as having a different hairline than the male who
3 paid K. Powell, but she stated that she was not
4 certain due to it being dark outside.
5 "The three photographs shown to Ms.
6 Powell are identified as Photographs 1, 2 and 3.
7 Photograph 1 portrays Williams, Photograph 2
8 portrays Wayne Turner, men's basketball Director
9 of Basketball Operations, and Photograph 3
10 portrays Tim Gray, former men's basketball
11 program assistant.
12 "Powell stated that the individual she
13 met at the Minardi Circle was not depicted in
14 Photographs 2 and 3. She was very clear and
15 very certain that those two individuals were
16 not. She was not certain as it relates to Mr.
17 Williams' picture as being the individual that
18 could have possibly met her outside of Minardi."
19 Again, as I previously made some
20 statements to, the supplemental response was the
21 first time that Mr. Williams had ever stated to
22 us that his cell phone was under his mom's
23 account. Mr. Ginsberg did reference a response
24 that Mr. Smrt provided to us on a variety of
25 issues of some of the outstanding records
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1 request that were being made, and in that
2 response Mr. Smrt stated that there were three
3 reasons as to why Mr. Williams was unwilling to
4 provide us his cell phone records.
5 One was that he was no longer at the
6 institution. Two was that there was personal
7 information within those records that he didn't
8 wish to provide. And, three, as Mr. Ginsberg
9 puts forth, is that he or his mother paid for
10 the cell phone, not the University.
11 There was never an indication that it
12 was a phone under his mom's account. We had
13 also, the Southern Mississippi decision that Mr.
14 Ginsberg references that is analogous to that
15 case.
16 Number one, that was a joint account
17 where you could not separate the records from
18 within those bank records. Here you could. We
19 were simply asking for Mr. Williams' records as
20 it relates to the cell phone number that he had,
21 not his mother's.
22 Now, Mr. Ginsberg also makes a
23 representation that we can't even ask for that
24 information. Yes, we can't compel someone to
25 ask for it, but we certainly could ask for it.
Page 217
1 And we would have asked for it had we known
2 that. We would have went directly to Mr.
3 Williams' mother had we known that that account
4 was in her name. But we were never provided that
5 opportunity because we were never told that the
6 account was in his mom's name.
7 I think Mr. Ginsberg also makes
8 representations about all of this exculpatory
9 information, that he should be provided the
10 exculpatory information for, in essence,
11 violations that occurred even though they are
12 not being alleged. Now, Mr. Williams is not
13 named in Allegation No. 1. He's named for a
14 failure to cooperate.
15 The enforcement staff were trying to
16 find access to where that money may have been
17 coming from, were there other individuals
18 involved on campus that may have known this was
19 going on because of when this last violation
20 occurred with McGee no longer being on staff?
21 In their reply and today in some of
22 his comments, things that he has stated that are
23 in existence just simply don't exist. There is
24 been referencing the response that we have
25 surveillance videos from that day. We don't
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1 have anything like that. There is also a
2 reference that not only that things are in
3 existence that don't exist, but things that are
4 in existence have been misrepresented to the
5 Committee.
6 He references an interview of Coach
7 Mike Balado. Coach Balado was also represented
8 by Mr. Ginsberg during this investigation and in
9 his interview. He represented to this Committee
10 that we asked Coach Balado about a loan that he
11 provided to Mr. Williams, and that Coach
12 Balado's explanation of that loan was exactly
13 what Mr. Williams reported to us.
14 Enforcement staff never asked Coach
15 Balado about that loan in that interview, and
16 that was purposeful because we were interviewing
17 Coach Balado first before we were going to
18 interview Mr. Williams. And in order to protect
19 the integrity of the investigation and to make
20 sure that we felt like we were getting
21 information without it being tainted in some
22 way, we did not ask Coach Balado about those.
23 So, I would present to the Committee
24 that, yes, we purposely did not provide the
25 entire record to Mr. Williams because the rest
Page 219
1 of the information did not go towards whether
2 Mr. Williams failed to provide us the
3 information that we are requesting. That
4 information went to Allegation 1 and/or
5 Allegation 2 or 4, not to whether Mr. Williams
6 failed to cooperate in our investigation.
7 MR. DUNCAN: There are two other
8 arguments that Mr. Ginsberg made that we haven't
9 responded to yet, and I would like to address
10 very briefly if I may.
11 One is he stresses the significance of
12 a 10.1 allegation, unethical conduct is correct,
13 and for that reason we, the enforcement staff,
14 are very careful before bringing a 10.1
15 allegation that is a significant one, and it is
16 a charge that we do not bring lightly.
17 There are layers upon layers upon
18 layers of internal review that we exhaust before
19 bringing any allegation, certainly a 10.1, all
20 of those were exhausted here.
21 Mr. Smrt made an argument earlier in
22 the day that a tie should go to the institution,
23 close calls should come down on the side of the
24 institution. I am not sure that's correct as it
25 relates to the institution. It is correct as it
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1 relates to 10.1 against an individual. But
2 based on the facts that we have here and the
3 circumstances here and the very clear
4 legislation and the interests at play, we
5 believe the allegation is proper and we brought
6 it and we also provided to this Committee all
7 the information for its consideration.
8 Second, again briefly, Mr. Ginsberg
9 suggests, as he often does, that we have an
10 interest in creating or substantiating an
11 allegation against his clients. He believes in
12 this case and others that we want to do that,
13 and he is simply incorrect.
14 Our charge, legislated in Article 19
15 of the Manual, is to discover pertinent facts,
16 both those that are incriminating and those that
17 are exculpatory, and present them to this
18 Committee.
19 We ask for records in all cases,
20 including this one, in furtherance of that
21 legislative charge, not knowing whether the
22 responses will be incriminating or exculpatory
23 and, frankly, not caring. But in furtherance of
24 our obligation to discover relevant facts and
25 present them to this Committee, we requested
Page 221
1 documents in this case in furtherance of that
2 legislative obligation and for no other reason.
3 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
4 Mr. Parkinson has a question.
5 MR. PARKINSON: Just a couple of
6 questions on the phone and the fact -- the
7 allegation, at least, that Mr. Williams' mother,
8 it was her phone, not his. I think you said
9 this, Mr. Strothkamp, but I just want to make
10 sure I understand it. When did you first hear
11 the argument that this isn't my phone, it's my
12 mother's phone, and I couldn't have provided it
13 even if I wanted to?
14 MR. STROTHKAMP: The first time that
15 we were told in any way that it was a phone in
16 his mom's name or account in his mom's name was
17 when we received the supplemental response.
18 There is the letter that Mr. Ginsberg refers to
19 that makes a reference to the three reasons as
20 to why he's not providing the bank records. And
21 one of those again states he or his mother paid
22 for the phone, not the University.
23 MR. PARKINSON: And when was that
24 letter?
25 MR. STROTHKAMP: That letter, it has
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 Page 222
1 two dates on it. On the first page of the
2 letter it's dated as May 31st, 2016, but in the
3 header it's dated as September 18th, 2016.
4 Again, when we interviewed him, we
5 provided him an opportunity to state the reason
6 as to why he was not providing the cell phone
7 records or willing to sign a release, and gave
8 no reason on the record. Go ahead.
9 MR. GINSBERG: Only if you would like
10 me to.
11 MR. PARKINSON: Briefly.
12 MR. GINSBERG: I mentioned a couple of
13 times that Brandon may have been better served
14 if the NCAA made available counsel to him. In
15 Brandon's mind, and I think the letter was
16 actually earlier in May, it was communicated the
17 information about the records being Brandon's
18 mom's.
19 But in Brandon's mind, he thought it
20 was clear from the beginning, and the records
21 themselves don't have Brandon's name. It's not
22 like there are different sections of the phone
23 records, it's all in Brandon's mother's name
24 with a Miami address.
25 So I think by the time of the second
Page 223
1 interview, I not only think, I know by the time
2 of the second interview, Brandon was quite sure
3 that that information had been communicated to
4 the NCAA.
5 MR. PARKINSON: I guess I am having
6 trouble understanding, then, why in August when
7 Mr. Williams is reinterviewed he doesn't say
8 that. It's a pretty basic point, isn't it?
9 It's not my phone. I don't have those phone
10 records. And yet, certainly the tenor of the
11 interview it was simply no, I am not going to
12 give you a reason, and for the 97th time I think
13 is how he ended his interview, for the 97th time
14 no, I am not going to be signing any releases.
15 I would like to hear from Mr. Williams
16 about if it was in your head from the beginning,
17 obviously these are your mother's records, why
18 wouldn't you have said that?
19 MR. WILLIAMS: If that's something
20 that I could do over, I would because I went
21 into that interview basically angry and upset
22 and I actually wasn't who I usually am as a
23 person on a day-to-day basis. I pretty much had
24 an attitude, and I really just didn't want to be
25 there just because through the whole process, I
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1 was just ready to be done with it. And if
2 that's a question I could take back and answer
3 it now, I would, and I would better explain it,
4 but unfortunately I can't.
5 I was just ready to get in there and
6 get into the interview and get home. I was away
7 from work. I had already been harassed by the
8 Committee. I was interviewed with HR. I was
9 just ready to move on from it and, like I said,
10 if that's a question I could take back and
11 answer accordingly, I would.
12 MR. PARKINSON: I appreciate that, Mr.
13 Williams. I know we all respond differently
14 when we are angry. Just a couple other points.
15 One is to enforcement and one to Mr. Smrt on
16 this point.
17 Do you have any idea today as we sit
18 here whether or not those records really belong
19 to his mother or not?
20 MR. STROTHKAMP: Other than Mr.
21 Ginsberg and Mr. Williams' representation that
22 they are, we haven't seen any documentary
23 evidence if that's what the question is. Just
24 the representation that's been put forth.
25 MR. PARKINSON: And then I guess that
Page 225
1 I would ask Mr. Ginsberg, if this is so
2 fundamental, why wouldn't you just show him a
3 document that shows that the phone's in his
4 mother's name sometime in the last few weeks, if
5 not six months ago?
6 MR. GINSBERG: Unfortunately, I wasn't
7 involved six months ago.
8 MR. PARKINSON: When did you become
9 involved?
10 MR. GINSBERG: After the Notice of
11 Allegation against Mr. Williams was made. And
12 if the record had been open still, I would have
13 been glad to have put them into the record.
14 I can represent, and I can walk over
15 and show the NCAA enforcement now, the records
16 are solely in the name of Connie R. Williams on
17 74th Street in Miami. Brandon's name doesn't
18 appear. And, quite frankly, it was clear to us,
19 and I think Brandon has some more to say about
20 this, it was clear that enforcement knew they
21 were Brandon's mother's records and it didn't
22 care that they were Brandon's mother's records.
23 MR. PARKINSON: Well, at that last
24 point I think -- Ms. Hannah, did you have
25 something to say?
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 Page 226
1 MR. HANNAH: Well, I just wanted to
2 mention, the Notice of Allegations was issued in
3 October of 2016. And we had a pre-hearing
4 conference with Mr. Ginsberg in February, and at
5 that time he was representing that Brandon
6 hadn't complied with our request to provide the
7 phone records because he didn't have an attorney
8 at the time and, you know, he wasn't making good
9 decisions without an attorney. He just now said
10 it was because the NCAA didn't provide.
11 Obviously, it's not our duty to provide that to
12 him. It's his decision to get an attorney.
13 But the second thing is I said, okay,
14 well, during that pre-hearing conference, he's
15 got an attorney now, will you provide us the
16 phone records that we asked for? And he said
17 you are not going to get me to answer that
18 question. And he also never told us during the
19 pre-hearing that the records were in Brandon's
20 mom's name and she was refusing to do that.
21 In fact, what he said today here at
22 the hearing, as strongly as he said it, that she
23 said no way, I am not going to do that, has
24 never been made available to us, that
25 information.
Page 227
1 MR. PARKINSON: Okay, thanks. That's
2 helpful. And then just one other question to
3 Mr. Smrt on this point because it does go to the
4 motivation issue that Mr. Ginsberg has talked a
5 lot about today.
6 He said, if I got it right, he said,
7 and I understood this to be around the time of
8 the April interview, or maybe a little bit after
9 that, that he told you that the phone records
10 were in his mom's name; is that accurate?
11 MS. SMRT: The best I can do on that
12 is referring back to my letter in May to the
13 NCAA where I referenced that one of the reasons
14 was he or his mother, and not the University,
15 has paid the phone bill. Unfortunately, my
16 recollection is as good as this letter about
17 that series of conversations.
18 MR. PARKINSON: And I assume, is it
19 fair to say, that you don't recall any other
20 representations that you made to enforcement
21 about whose records they were other than that
22 May 31st letter?
23 MR. SMRT: I do not.
24 MR. GINSBERG: May Mr. Williams
25 address that?
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1 MR. PARKINSON: Sure, we are happy to
2 have Mr. Williams address anything.
3 MR. WILLIAMS; During that time, I
4 felt like I made it clear to Mr. Smrt regarding
5 the records belonging to my mother. There seems
6 to be some kind of misunderstanding or wasn't
7 communicated properly to the Committee. But I
8 felt I made it clear that the phone records
9 belonged to my mother.
10 MR. STROTHKAMP: Mr. Parkinson, I will
11 also add that a few days after the date of that
12 letter that we received from Mr. Smrt, Mr.
13 Williams sent the letter directly to the
14 enforcement staff about the fact that he hadn't
15 made a decision on whether he was going to turn
16 over the cell phone records because he was
17 contemplating or he was going to have
18 discussions with an attorney. So, beyond what
19 Chuck put in the letter, Mr. Williams had a
20 chance on his own to tell us at that time as
21 well that they were actually -- this account was
22 in his mom's name and he failed to do so.
23 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Madva.
24 MR. MADVA: I just have a point of
25 clarification from Mr. Ginsberg. There seems to
Page 229
1 be a disconnect between Mr. Strothkamp's
2 representation of the physical phone that was
3 turned over and the mirror of the phone that was
4 turned over and the phone about which the
5 records are being sought. Am I misstating that,
6 Mr. Strothkamp?
7 MR. STROTHKAMP: No, you are not. In
8 his interview in April, I have to find it, but
9 he had only had the physical phone, this is not
10 a direct quote, but from my notes, he only had
11 the physical phone for two months at the time
12 that we had interviewed him. I can find the
13 exact exchange if you would like.
14 MR. MADVA: I will just direct it to
15 Mr. Ginsberg. Were they different phones? Were
16 the records for the phones being sought
17 different from the physical phone of which the
18 mirror image was taken?
19 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Do you
20 need the question repeated?
21 MR. GINSBERG: No, I think I
22 understand it. My understanding is this, that
23 it's the same phone number, and then when phones
24 are exchanged for another phone, all of the data
25 is loaded into the new phone. So, although the
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 Page 230
1 hardware might be different, the content of the
2 phone is the same because it's the same phone
3 line. So I think that's the same disconnect. I
4 think that's the reason for the disconnect.
5 It's the same phone line.
6 And so, for instance, with contacts
7 and phone records, when you get a new phone,
8 it's all transferred to your phone as long as
9 you keep the same phone number. So I think it's
10 a difference without a distinction, or a
11 distinction without a difference.
12 MR. STROTHKAMP: I would disagree with
13 that assessment. The physical phone that he had
14 when you make your mirror image of it, he only
15 had for two months. So any of the phone
16 history, call history that was associated with
17 that phone, so if you go into your phone, you
18 will get your recent calls that you make, could
19 only have gone back two months on the mirror
20 image.
21 Hence, why we were making the request
22 for the actual cell phone records to show the
23 outgoing and incoming texts, outgoing and
24 incoming calls for the four-month period from
25 June of '14, I believe, through August of '14,
Page 231
1 it may have been September.
2 So, that does follow the phone number,
3 but you lose any call history, any web history,
4 anything of that nature when you change physical
5 phones. Hence, why there was such limited
6 contents on the mirror image that was made
7 because he only had the phone approximately
8 anywhere from a month to two months prior to the
9 mirror image being made of the phone in March.
10 MR. MADVA: If I could have one more
11 question. Much has been made of the sign-in
12 sheets for July of 2014. When you responded to
13 Mr. Ginsberg's comments, you didn't reference
14 whether you are in possession of those sign-in
15 sheets, whether they show whether Mr. Williams
16 was in and out. The first question is, are you
17 in possession of them? And, secondly, if you
18 are in possession of them, why didn't you turn
19 them over?
20 MR. STROTHKAMP: We are in possession
21 of some, not all, from EDR, it's EDR, I believe,
22 the firm that the institution used to manage the
23 house, Minardi Hall. They didn't have all of
24 them. And even in a period of time, there were
25 periods of time that were missing.
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1 We did not provide the July 22nd
2 Brentley Security's form directly to Mr.
3 Ginsberg. We did ask his client twice, on two
4 occasions, about that. But that's correct, we
5 did not provide it because we don't think that
6 goes to whether or not he provided his cell
7 phone records as requested.
8 I know Mr. Ginsberg will say, well,
9 that's exculpatory information of an allegation
10 that we did not allege. We are not saying that
11 he's involved in one. Could he have some
12 knowledge? Could he be involved? That's what
13 we were investigating.
14 Does he have additional names that he
15 could provide to us? Does he know where the
16 source of the funds were coming? All those
17 things that we weren't able to get a full
18 picture of because we didn't get whether or not
19 he had contact with the two folks that were
20 involved, that he could not recall, and stated
21 affirmatively that he did not have contact with
22 Steven Reece and Andre McGee.
23 MR. GINSBERG: May I fill in something
24 about the phone records because I am still
25 somewhat confused on it, maybe I can clarify.
Page 233
1 I don't know an awful lot about the
2 technology, but the NCAA enforcement is correct.
3 Brandon turned over that phone on March 16th,
4 the day he was asked for it. He didn't get a
5 request, I think it was until sometime in late
6 May, May 20th I think it was, for the phone
7 records.
8 If it's clear that the phone didn't
9 have the information or the time period the NCAA
10 wanted, it's hard to understand why they waited
11 those couple of months. Brandon believed, (a),
12 that he had turned over everything that the NCAA
13 wanted, and, (b), he believes that when he is
14 sure that when he was asked about the phone
15 records, that's when he had the discussion with
16 his mother and communicated, as I said, maybe
17 not as explicitly as we would have liked or in
18 the format we would have liked, that he couldn't
19 turn over the records, and he said it again and
20 again, which explains his attitude during the
21 August interview.
22 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr.
23 Parkinson.
24 MR. PARKINSON: I have one question of
25 the enforcement staff, which I think is pretty
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 Page 234 Page 236
1 fundamental for this allegation, and that is 1 he's willing to show, in essence, date back to
2 does it make a difference that when you made the 2 the 2014 four-month period that we requested?
3 request he was no longer employed by Louisville? 3 MR. GINSBERG: I can represent this is
4 In other words, there is plenty of witnesses out 4 the most recent record, but Brandon can
5 there that aren't employed by an institution 5 represent it was the same in 2014.
6 that you would like to be able to compel 6 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: So what is
7 evidence from, there is no obligation for them 7 it going to show us? Is it going to show us
8 to do that. And this particular request, as I 8 simply that the phone belongs to his mother?
9 understand the chronology, came after he was no 9 MR. GINSBERG: Yes.
10 longer employed. And if I understand correctly, 10 MR. DUNCAN: I think what it will show
11 at that point he is no obligation to provide 11 is the billing statement -- we don't know
12 anything that's asked, and if he chooses not to, 12 because we haven't seen it -- goes to his
13 I am trying to understand how we get there with 13 mother's residence, which we wouldn't dispute.
14 this allegation. 14 We would stipulate to that. I suspect that it
15 MS. HANNAH: Actually, the legislation 15 will also show that there are two phones, one
16 mandates that current and former staff members 16 used by his mother and one used by him. We have
17 comply with requests by the enforcement staff. 17 never been interested in his mother's
18 And that's the reason why he's here is because 18 communications. We are only interested in his
19 he didn't do that, and so now he's at risk for 19 regardless of where the bill is sent to.
20 unethical conduct. So that could -- if a 20 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr.
21 finding is made and a penalty imposed, there 21 Ginsberg, does that, in fact, show up on this
22 could be a show-cause on him for future 22 document?
23 employment at an institution. 23 MR. GINSBERG: It shows three lines,
24 MR. PARKINSON: Okay. I appreciate 24 one account holder and one person who controls
25 that clarification. I had forgotten that. 25 and owns the phones, and that is Ms. Williams.
Page 235 Page 237
1 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay. 1 Ms. Williams is the lawful possessor and
2 Anything else? 2 controller of the records and of the phones, and
3 MR. BOCK: Mr. Ginsberg, could we take 3 they are exclusively in her control, just like
4 you up on your invitation to show us the records 4 the Southern Mississippi case.
5 in camera? 5 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Let's get
6 MR. GINSBERG: I will be glad to do 6 copies and let's give them to all parties. And
7 so. 7 because we have been at it now for nearly two
8 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Well, if 8 hours, let's use this opportunity while those
9 it's going to be submitted, everyone's going to 9 copies are being made to take a ten-minute
10 have the opportunity to see it. So is everyone 10 break.
11 interested? 11 (RECESS.)
12 MR. SMRT: It would seem appropriate 12 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Let's
13 that all involved parties in 3 would get a copy 13 reconvene as quickly as we can. We have what we
14 of it. If we are going to retain it, I guess we 14 asked for. We will get it distributed. We are
15 would like a copy to keep. If it's something 15 ready to go.
16 you are going to look at, then obviously we 16 We have someone on the Panel who is
17 would at least want to look at it also. 17 ready to ask Mr. Ginsberg what exactly we are
18 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I think 18 seeing here.
19 the best thing to do is to get some copies made 19 MR. CHRISTOPHER: What she said. I
20 at this point so that all the parties can have 20 guess, Mr. Williams, what does this show us,
21 them. 21 just so it can be on the record?
22 MR. STROTHKAMP: Could Mr. Ginsberg 22 MR. WILLIAMS: It's basically the bill
23 identify whether that's for the time period in 23 statement. It just shows you what name that the
24 question that we are asking for the records 24 account is in.
25 rather than currently? Does that document that 25 MR. CHRISTOPHER: So, which of the
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1 three numbers there on the middle left front 1 that is correct except the legal principle is
2 page is your number? 2 even stronger in Mr. Williams' case. Ms.
3 MR. WILLIAMS: The number associated 3 Williams said no, it's my account, we won't
4 with me is 786-282-7054. 4 produce the records. It could have been done
5 MR. CHRISTOPHER: And you used that 5 but Brandon didn't have the right to do it.
6 number, that phone, but it's your mom's account, 6 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I
7 she pays the bill? 7 understand that. I just want to be on the
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 8 record that it could have been done, and that
9 MR. CHRISTOPHER: How long has it been 9 was the motivation behind enforcement asking for
10 that way, that it's her account and she pays the 10 it.
11 bill? 11 MS. HANNAH: That's right. But we
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Since I was in about 12 also didn't know that his mother paid the phone
13 6th grade, Middle school. 13 bills or that it was her account.
14 MR. CHRISTOPHER: And for the staff, 14 MR. CHRISTOPHER: So, what's your
15 it is, I guess, your view that this is probably 15 reaction to this? I am sorry to interrupt, but
16 more of a macro question, but it's your view 16 let me say it a different way. Would you still
17 that regardless of whose account a phone is in 17 have brought this allegation if you had known
18 or something related to that, a staff member, a 18 the phone is in the mom's name?
19 coach, former staff member has the obligation to 19 MS. HANNAH: Well, maybe Jon can
20 cooperate, regardless of the ownership of an 20 correct me, but, yes, I think we would still.
21 account? 21 He is an adult and, like I said, he is the one
22 MS. HANNAH: Yes, yes, that's right. 22 who is using the phone. All we wanted are his
23 I mean, he's using the phone, he's in control of 23 records, not his mother's, so, yes, I think we
24 it, he is obligated to provide us the records. 24 would still consider it a failure to cooperate.
25 MR. CHRISTOPHER: And, Mr. Williams, 25 MR. CHRISTOPHER: I will say just as
Page 239 Page 241
1 it's your assessment that you have cooperated, 1 an A.D., as an editorial comment, this is a
2 you know, from the beginning of this case and 2 pretty good mouse trap. I mean, this is as good
3 it's your mom's decision not to hand over the 3 as a burner phone. You know, if you can take
4 records? 4 your phone, because more and more of us are
5 MR. WILLIAMS; Yes. She said she 5 going to stipends because we don't want to be in
6 wanted nothing else to do with it, and she 6 the phone business for a University, all I have
7 didn't want that information given out. 7 to do is put my phone in my wife's name or my
8 MR. GINSBERG: And if I might address 8 mom's name or somebody like that?
9 the University of Southern Mississippi case, 9 MR. GINSBERG: I think when Brandon
10 that was a joint account and the person being 10 was in 6th grade, he probably hadn't considered
11 requested by the NCAA for the records couldn't 11 that, though.
12 even provide the records. 12 MR. CHRISTOPHER: Understood. But to
13 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Actually, 13 Dr. Cartwright's point, it's incredibly easy to
14 I haven't seen that decision, but it's my 14 ask T-Mobile to separate 7054's numbers, because
15 understanding that was a bank account. 15 at the end of the day, we are going to leave
16 MR. GINSBERG: I believe that's right. 16 this room, we have got to go in another room and
17 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: And that 17 assess credibility.
18 it is very difficult to untangle when there is a 18 And we get to assess the credibility
19 joint bank account, but I am presuming the 19 of this side and then the credibility of Mr.
20 technology, saying this for the record, that the 20 Williams. And, Mr. Ginsberg, you are a piece of
21 technology exists to break out 786-282-7054 from 21 that, too, and some of your misrepresentations
22 the other two accounts and show those call 22 from a few minutes ago honestly didn't help.
23 records, which would make it different from 23 So, that's kind of where we are going to be
24 Southern Mississippi. 24 trying to factor in here.
25 MR. GINSBERG: Well, respectfully, 25 MR. GINSBERG: Well, respectfully, if
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1 there are misrepresentations you think I made, I 1 doesn't want extensive records as far as the
2 would like to address them. 2 numbers given out.
3 Second of all, you are talking about a 3 MR. BOCK: Can you explain in your own
4 legal principle, not credibility. And the legal 4 words the difference between the three or four
5 principle is that Brandon didn't have the right 5 months of records that were requested and the
6 to produce and the fact is that NCAA on its own 6 one month of records and why that caused a
7 website says that it did not have the right to 7 concern, different from producing one month of
8 demand them. 8 records?
9 So, if you have a question about my 9 MR. WILLIAMS: These are not really
10 credibility, I would love to respond but that, 10 records, this is just a statement saying that
11 quite frankly, is irrelevant to this issue. 11 the account is in her name. The records that
12 MR. CHRISTOPHER: Well, I think what's 12 they want are extensive texts, calls, personal
13 relevant, though, again is that for us to make 13 information that goes much deeper than this
14 this decision, we have to assess the credibility 14 statement. And my mom does not want to get
15 of what we have got in front of us. That's the 15 involved with that. But this right here is just
16 point I am trying to make. And I guess an 16 a statement showing the account is in her name,
17 incomplete package is what we have got. Is that 17 that's it.
18 fair, Jon? 18 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay. All
19 MR. DUNCAN: It is. I will stand by 19 right. Seeing no other questions, I think we
20 the materials on our website as well, and we 20 are ready to move on to Allegation 4.
21 have talked about Southern Miss a couple of 21 We need to decide if we are going to
22 times. Dr. Cartwright's observation about the 22 add this to the record, correct? Are all
23 difference between a bank account and phone 23 parties willing to add this to the record? I am
24 records is well taken. 24 seeing a yes from enforcement and a yes from the
25 I don't think we should forget that 25 institution. All right. Then we will add this
Page 243 Page 245
1 there was also a coach involved in that case who 1 to the formal record.
2 had a phone in his mother's name. There were 2 Now we are ready for Allegation 4. Is
3 findings made against that individual by this 3 the enforcement staff ready to present? Mr.
4 Committee and those are still part of the law of 4 Leffler.
5 this Committee, those have not been changed. 5 MR. LEFFLER: Yes, Dr. Cartwright.
6 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay. 6 Thank you.
7 Yes, Mr. Bock. 7 As the parties are well aware, head
8 MR. BOCK: Brandon, why didn't you 8 coach responsibility legislation consists of two
9 bring a phone record from the relevant time 9 prongs. The first relates to head coach's
10 period to establish the account being in your 10 responsibility to promote an atmosphere of
11 mom's name? 11 compliance. And the second relates to a head
12 MR. WILLIAMS; Because I didn't have 12 coach's responsibility to monitor his or her
13 it. It would have been a long process to get 13 direct or indirect reports.
14 that because they don't have them on line 14 The enforcement staff is not alleging
15 anymore. You can't just go on line and pull it 15 head men's basketball coach Rick Pitino did not
16 up just because it's so far back. So I just had 16 promote an atmosphere of compliance in this
17 the most relevant statement that came in and I 17 matter. Rather, Allegation No. 4 only alleges a
18 presented it. 18 violation related to the second prong, that
19 MR. BOCK: What did you do to get your 19 Coach Pitino failed to demonstrate that he
20 mom's consent to produce this record at the 20 monitored Andre McGee, a member of his staff who
21 hearing today? 21 provided prospects, student-athletes and others
22 MR. WILLIAMS: I told her that it 22 impermissible inducements and offers and extra
23 would be needed to show that it's her name 23 benefits from at least December of 2010 through
24 that's on the account, and she said okay, that's 24 April 2014 in the form of strip tease shows, sex
25 fine if it's just that, that's okay. But she 25 and cash in a campus dormitory and a local
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1 hotel.
2 Coach Pitino is presumed responsible
3 for McGee's actions, and the staff alleges that
4 Coach Pitino failed to rebut that presumption by
5 demonstrating that he monitored McGee. Coach
6 Pitino failed to frequently spot check the
7 program to uncover potential or existing
8 compliance problems, including actively looking
9 for and evaluating red flags, asking pointed
10 questions and regularly soliciting honest
11 feedback to determine if monitoring systems were
12 functioning properly regarding McGee's
13 activities and interactions with prospects and
14 student-athletes.
15 Coach Pitino and the institution
16 dispute this allegation. The enforcement staff
17 believes that the Hearing Panel could conclude
18 that this allegation is a Level I severe breach
19 of conduct. That's because the head coach
20 failed to demonstrate that he monitored a member
21 of his staff resulting from underlying Level I
22 violations.
23 As previously stated, the institution
24 and Coach Pitino dispute this allegation and
25 have not stated whether they agree with the
Page 247
1 cited level.
2 From the spring of 2010 through April
3 of 2014, McGee, a former student-athlete of
4 Coach Pitino's, worked in Coach Pitino's program
5 as a program assistant and the Director of
6 Basketball Operations. During this four-year
7 period, McGee resided in Minardi with the
8 student-athletes. The program trusted and
9 relied on him to arrange and monitor prospects'
10 visits and monitor student-athletes in Minardi.
11 McGee's interactions with prospects
12 also included leading campus and Minardi tours,
13 speaking with prospects about playing for Coach
14 Pitino, scheduling academic appointments,
15 connecting prospects with student-athletes
16 during unofficial visits, keeping prospects on
17 schedule for events and monitoring the prospects
18 while they were in Minardi.
19 At that same time he is being trusted
20 to monitor prospects and student-athlete
21 activities in Minardi, McGee was arranging for
22 providing strip tease shows, sex acts and cash.
23 Despite the program's heavy reliance on McGee,
24 Coach Pitino did not ask McGee what the
25 prospects were doing once under his watch at
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1 Minardi.
2 Coach Pitino reported that it was his
3 assistant coach's responsibility to monitor
4 McGee's activities with prospects. Coach Pitino
5 reported that he only asked McGee about the
6 institution's chances in landing the prospect as
7 an enrolled student-athlete.
8 This does not equate to one conducting
9 frequent spot checks to uncover potential or
10 existing compliance problems regarding McGee's
11 interactions with prospects and student-
12 athletes. It does not equate to looking for red
13 flags. It does not equate to asking pointed
14 questions. And it doesn't equate to regularly
15 or even occasionally soliciting honest feedback
16 from McGee about activities occurring under his
17 watch.
18 By not taking an active role in
19 monitoring McGee, Coach Pitino has failed to
20 show that he was monitoring him and rebut the
21 presumption of responsibility for the serious
22 and prolonged violations committed by a member
23 of his staff.
24 Coach Pitino cannot completely
25 delegate his responsibility to monitor to McGee
Page 249
1 to his assistant coaches. And even if this was
2 the case, his assistant coaches seemed unaware
3 of this expectation. None of the assistant
4 coaches interviewed during this case's
5 investigation who were on staff with McGee and
6 were identified as being the lead recruiter for
7 at least one of the prospects named in
8 Allegation No. 1 reported that they were tasked
9 with monitoring McGee.
10 In fact, Kevin Keatts, the lead
11 recruiter for eight of the prospects,
12 specifically reported in his pre Notice of
13 Allegations interview that the did not monitor
14 McGee's interactions with prospects and he was
15 unaware of anyone else monitoring McGee.
16 Furthermore, Coach Pitino and other
17 coaches did not indirectly monitor McGee by
18 regularly soliciting honest feedback about dorm
19 activities from prospective student-athletes and
20 their student-athlete host.
21 The institution and Coach Pitino point
22 to Coach Pitino and others reporting that he
23 always asked prospects and prospect student
24 hosts about their previous night activities
25 during a breakfast meeting the next morning. As
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 Page 250
1 referenced in the staff's reply, first, asking
2 prospects and student hosts at breakfast about
3 their previous night activities is a much less
4 effective monitoring mechanism than addressing
5 the question directly with McGee, the adult
6 staff member embedded in Minardi Hall to monitor
7 the prospects and student-athletes at night.
8 Additionally, a number of prospects
9 identified in Allegation No. 1 reported
10 information that did not support Coach Pitino or
11 the other coaches always asking what the
12 prospects did the night before.
13 In addition, six former prospective
14 student-athletes, a prospect's friend and a then
15 prospect's coach received strip tease shows, sex
16 acts and/or cash during unofficial visits.
17 Unofficial visits did not include student hosts
18 and/or breakfast meetings.
19 Also, Coach Pitino reported during his
20 interview that he was not keen on unofficial
21 visits and that he was not always present for
22 all of them.
23 Moreover, at least three enrolled
24 student-athletes receive a strip tease show
25 and/or sex act. And these enrolled student-
Page 251
1 athletes did not have student hosts and were not
2 subject to official visit breakfast meetings
3 with the coaches the next morning.
4 Additionally, in interviews conducted
5 during the investigation, former assistant
6 coaches did not corroborate that they or Coach
7 Pitino regularly specifically asked prospects
8 and hosts about their activities at night in
9 Minardi.
10 In a supplemental response Coach
11 Pitino has relied on a recent second interview
12 with Kevin Keatts and a recent interview with
13 Ralph Willard to bolster his position that he
14 monitored McGee and always asked these questions
15 of prospects and hosts.
16 Subsequent to the public dissemination
17 of the Notice of Allegations and the
18 institution's response and Coach Pitino's
19 initial response, Mr. Tompsett scheduled and
20 completed a second interview with Kevin Keatts
21 on March 10th, 2017.
22 With exception of Andre McGee, all of
23 the parties participated in the interview. In
24 that interview Coach Keatts changed his position
25 somewhat from his first interview when he agreed
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1 with Mr. Tompsett that Coach Pitino did monitor
2 Andre McGee's actions by asking questions and
3 directing his staff to ask questions.
4 During this second interview Keatts
5 also stated that both he and Coach Pitino would
6 ask prospects specifically what they did during
7 their overnight stays, which was different than
8 what he originally reported in his first
9 interview.
10 Regarding Ralph Willard, Mr. Tompsett
11 scheduled an interview with former assistant
12 coach and Director of Basketball Operations
13 Ralph Willard, for March 15th of 2017 after the
14 public dissemination of the Notice of
15 Allegations and the responses.
16 Additionally, after being requested to
17 do so by Coach Willard, Mr. Tompsett e-mailed
18 Coach Willard a copy of Coach Pitino's redacted
19 response before the interview and with the
20 exception of Andre McGee, all the parties again
21 also participated in this interview.
22 Willard was on staff as the Director
23 of Basketball Operations during the 2011-'11
24 academic year and left the institution in August
25 of 2011. Coach Willard was a staff member
Page 253
1 during Andre McGee's first year as a program
2 assistant, 2010-2011.
3 Willard's time overlapped with no more
4 than three of the identified prospects who
5 received inducements from McGee, Greg McClinton,
6 Kevin Ware and Marcus Georges-Hunt, Like Kevin
7 Keatts, Tim Fuller, Mike Balado and Wyking
8 Jones, Willard was never identified by any of
9 the interviewed former prospects or student-
10 athletes as someone who played a pivotal role in
11 their recruitment or who they interacted with
12 during their visits while at Louisville. In
13 fact, Willard's name was never mentioned.
14 Moreover, when reviewing the visit
15 records for Greg McClinton, Kevin Ware and
16 Marcus Georges-Hunt, Willard is not identified
17 as one of the staff members who interacted with
18 the then prospects during their visits, which
19 includes a list of staff attending breakfast,
20 the breakfast during Ware's official visit.
21 However, Willard did report that Coach
22 Pitino always asked prospects at breakfast
23 during visits what they did the previous night
24 and asked student hosts what they did with
25 prospects the previous night. But again, many
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1 of these inducements and extra benefits were
2 provided during unofficial visits or to student-
3 athletes, and that would be enrolled student-
4 athletes where student hosts were not involved
5 and where there were no breakfasts.
6 Finally, then former or current
7 student-athletes that served as student hosts
8 reported information that was inconsistent with
9 Coach Pitino always asking them about activities
10 they participated in at night with the prospects
11 they were hosting.
12 For example, Terry Rozier, a former
13 student-athlete that hosted prospects, reported
14 Coach Pitino trusted McGee because McGee was a
15 former student-athlete. Coach Pitino wouldn't
16 know what was going on around the program like
17 on visits and things of that nature.
18 Unless there was practice or films,
19 Coach Pitino was never at the dorms. Coach
20 Pitino never really saw their dorms. If it
21 wasn't a large team event, Coach Pitino would
22 not be present.
23 This is not a case of a staffer
24 providing one or two prospects inducements at a
25 remote location for a brief period of time.
Page 255
1 McGee was providing significant impermissible
2 inducements and extra benefits involving female
3 adult entertainers to at least 20 people for
4 almost four years, mostly at a campus dormitory
5 largely dedicated to the men's basketball
6 program.
7 Pointed questions could have revealed
8 red flags and surface violations or showed that
9 individuals were making concerted efforts to
10 hide activities from Coach Pitino. Asked some
11 pointed questions by the head coach or limited
12 follow-up, neither is present here.
13 Instead, as Wyking Jones reported, he
14 trusted visits were going well and he was not
15 responsible for making sure a prospective
16 student-athlete was not receiving adult
17 entertainment, sex acts or cash at Minardi, he
18 being Wyking Jones. Or as Kevin Keatts put it,
19 everybody assumed that everybody was doing the
20 right thing.
21 Coach Pitino felt that Andre McGee, a
22 staff member that he trusted, was an extension
23 of him while working as part of the staff.
24 Coach Pitino also felt that he was not
25 responsible for Andre McGee's interactions with
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1 prospective student-athletes and student-
2 athletes during that same period because he
3 taught Andre McGee better.
4 Trust alone cannot overcome the
5 presumption that Coach Pitino i's responsible
6 for the violations Andre McGee committed while
7 on his staff. Coach Pitino did not supplement
8 his trust in McGee by completing frequent spot
9 checks, including actively looking for and
10 evaluating red flats, asking pointed questions
11 and regularly soliciting honest feedback to
12 determine if monitoring systems were functioning
13 properly regarding McGee's interactions and
14 activities with prospects and student-athletes.
15 As a result, Coach Pitino did not
16 demonstrate that he monitored Andre McGee. He
17 did not satisfy his obligations under NCAA Bylaw
18 11.1.1.1 and cannot rebut the presumption of
19 responsibility for uncontroverted violations in
20 the men's basketball program.
21 This conclude's the staff's
22 presentation of Allegation No. 4.
23 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you,
24 Mr. Leffler. The institution's responses, Mr.
25 Smrt, will you make that?
Page 257
1 MR. SMRT: I will. This is a very
2 narrow allegation. It's obviously not that
3 Coach Pitino knew of these activities, it's also
4 not that he should have known of these
5 activities. As you know, the enforcement staff
6 sometimes alleges an atmosphere of compliance
7 which is this broad allegation. It's not that.
8 It's also not that he failed to monitor his
9 program. So it's getting ever narrower. It's
10 that he failed to monitor McGee, I believe, on
11 unofficial and official visits, his activities
12 during, so it's a very narrow allegation.
13 I heard Nate, and I read the
14 enforcement staff's reply, but I guess I still
15 don't know, and I hear all the time red flags,
16 they didn't pick up the red flags. We haven't
17 heard of a red flag yet. We heard that they
18 didn't ask pointed questions. We haven't heard
19 of a pointed question that should have been
20 asked.
21 Now, going to the pointed questions, I
22 guess if the pointed question is did you have
23 sex last night, then if that's the standard that
24 this Committee expects a coach to display,
25 that's a very high standard.
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1 Who had information? Three groups of
2 people had information. The prospects
3 themselves, the student-athletes, a few student-
4 athletes, not all student-athletes, and McGee.
5 Now, we know that some of these prospects signed
6 declaration forms that said they didn't get
7 money so they reported already to the
8 institution they didn't get money, yet they got
9 cash.
10 There should be some reasonableness
11 that if you ask someone a question, there is
12 going to be some honesty. We know a couple of
13 the prospects lied by signing the forms. We
14 know that two of the student-athletes, when they
15 were prospects, had sex or had a dance. When I
16 interviewed them, they lied to me. We know that
17 McGee when confronted by Coach Pitino in August
18 lied. So I guess these pointed questions, we
19 still haven't heard, you know, give us a pointed
20 question that wasn't asked.
21 We can get in the minutia of what was
22 said. Did Coach Pitino say what did you do last
23 night versus did you have a good time last
24 night? Now, I think those are very common
25 questions and did he ask two of these people,
Page 259
1 did he ask four of these people?
2 To me that's kind of minutia. The
3 allegation is he didn't ask pointed questions.
4 Give us the pointed questions that he didn't
5 ask. Is it, did you have sex last night, is
6 that the standard that's being imposed? If not,
7 what specifically should have been asked to whom
8 and is there a reasonable expectation that they
9 are going to be honest with you?
10 Now, again, the honest part, I can
11 understand that, but is it he should have asked?
12 There is an allegation out there, so what is the
13 standard that should be placed to meet that
14 obligation that it should be found? What are
15 the pointed questions that weren't asked? What
16 are the red flags that weren't evaluated?
17 We talked about -- in our response we
18 list out five areas of why we don't believe that
19 the allegation should be found. I think I have
20 addressed three of these already. But the two
21 other ones real quickly.
22 There were others who had monitoring
23 responsibilities who were unable to detect these
24 activities. Again, the belief is I guess from
25 the staff that if Coach Pitino would have done
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1 something, he would have picked it up. I still
2 don't know what the question would have been,
3 who he would have gone to. If he would have
4 gone to McGee and said, if he would have thought
5 about it, did you have sex activities, did you
6 arrange sex activities? McGee would have said
7 you got me, Coach.
8 He confronted him in August of 2016,
9 2015, and he denied it. What question should he
10 have asked and what red flags were out there?
11 I do have a concern, I want to make
12 sure it's on the record because it's in the
13 enforcement staff reply. On Page 46 of the
14 enforcement staff reply, they reference two
15 athletes, Ware and Gill, who said it was common
16 knowledge among teammates about the dancers.
17 That's true, they did say that.
18 But if the enforcement staff is going
19 to go down that path, they should have said that
20 ten other people who lived at Minardi who were
21 interviewed said it was not common knowledge.
22 If you are going to go down the path of saying
23 some people said that, then you need to say, and
24 I want to enter into the record and we would ask
25 the Committee that any information that you put
Page 261
1 in an Infractions Report about being common
2 knowledge, that you also indicate there were ten
3 other individuals who said it was not common
4 knowledge.
5 Browman, Brooks, Wagner, Levage,
6 Justus, Turner, Hancock, Myra, Shopshier and
7 Currat said it was not common knowledge. That's
8 not in your enforcement staff reply, they only
9 put two in there that said it was common
10 knowledge. Again, you don't need to go down
11 that path to support an allegation against Coach
12 Pitino. I don't think it's relevant but its' in
13 the enforcement staff reply. We felt like we
14 had to address it because we don't want
15 something in the Infractions Report, your
16 Infractions Report that would say it was common
17 knowledge because again there are two athletes,
18 they say, we have ten other people who lived
19 there that did not say it was common knowledge.
20 Thank you.
21 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr.
22 Pitino, this is your opportunity to respond. I
23 want to be inclusive and give you all the time
24 you need, but I also believe there were some
25 things said by you and your counsel this morning
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1 that go to this allegation, and if you could try 1 MR. DUNCAN: Only relevant to this
2 to not repeat those, it would be helpful. 2 allegation against him.
3 MR. TOMPSETT: Very good. I think I 3 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Do we
4 understand your instruction, Dr. Cartwright, and 4 still need to add it to the record? Okay.
5 we will certainly do our best not to be 5 Please go ahead, Mr. Tompsett.
6 redundant. 6 MR. DUNCAN: I am sorry. Before Mr.
7 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: But if you 7 Tompsett proceeds, I think that Mr. Ginsberg and
8 need to repeat something just in the flow of 8 his client still have a copy of the transcript.
9 your presentation, I don't want to hinder that. 9 I am not sure that that's the case.
10 MR. TOMPSETT: Thank you. 10 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Not from
11 Dr. Cartwright, I have a handout I 11 them?
12 would like distributed that goes along with my 12 MR. DUNCAN: I believe so. I would
13 verbal presentation. I am going to be covering 13 refer to the will of the Committee, but I think
14 in detail some transcript excerpts or testimony 14 we had an admission earlier that materials were
15 during my verbal presentation. The handout I 15 leaked by Mr. Ginsberg to the media, which is
16 would like to be distributed to the Committee, 16 why we don't want to overdisclose to counsel who
17 the staff and others here in the room consists 17 is not involved in an allegation.
18 only of transcript excerpts and testimony. 18 MR. GINSBERG: I am going to refrain
19 I think it will be very useful for the 19 from expressing my disdain for that comment and
20 people, rather than just hearing the words come 20 represent to the Panel I am well aware of my
21 out of my mouth, to see them on paper and I 21 confidentiality obligations and these won't be
22 expect that going forward if there is questions 22 leaked by either Brandon or by me.
23 about what a specific witness said, the handout 23 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
24 may be of assistance. 24 What I am going to do, unless I get a signal
25 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: That seems 25 here that it's inappropriate, I am going to
Page 263 Page 265
1 reasonable to me so we don't have to go back 1 permit the two of you to have it while we have
2 through all the transcripts that we have been 2 the discussion because it's for the purpose of
3 reading. If they are collated in one place, I 3 facilitating discussion, and we have already
4 think that would be helpful. 4 said that everybody would be in the room for the
5 MR. TOMPSETT: I collated them last 5 entirety of the hearing. But we will collect
6 night myself. 6 the materials at the end of this discussion.
7 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I believe 7 Does that satisfy your concern?
8 I understand, but let's clarify that all of 8 MR. DUNCAN: It does. Thank you.
9 these are already in the record? 9 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Please
10 MR. TOMPSETT: Yes. 10 proceed.
11 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: And this 11 MR. TOMPSETT: Thank you. We are
12 is just to facilitate our following your 12 going to cover a lot of ground here. The staff
13 presentation? 13 has made several arguments in their reply that I
14 MR. TOMPSETT: That's correct. 14 would characterize as specious, misleading and
15 MR. DUNCAN: They are in the record 15 in an attempt to apply a standard of monitoring
16 for the Committee, they have not been previously 16 that's contrary to case precedent and guidelines
17 made available to Mr. Ginsberg and he just 17 from the COI. I am going to cover five main
18 received a copy. 18 subjects.
19 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you 19 First I am going to talk about the
20 for the clarification. 20 staff's failure to tell us specifically how
21 MR. DUNCAN: And I guess I should add, 21 Coach Pitino failed to monitor.
22 I am not sure, he should have received a copy. 22 Second, I am going to talk about how
23 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I was just 23 Andre McGee was not assigned to entertain
24 going to say, although it's not relevant to that 24 visiting prospects.
25 particular allegation. 25 Third, we are going to discuss the
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1 record evidence, the transcript testimony about
2 how Coach Pitino and others did ask about the
3 previous night's activities.
4 Fourth, I am going to explain that no
5 reasonable monitoring would have uncovered
6 McGee's illicit activities.
7 And, finally, I am going to conclude
8 by explaining that Coach Pitino acted reasonably
9 and monitored reasonably.
10 We are going to start with the staff's
11 allegation. At Page 40 of the staff's reply,
12 the staff states, "The enforcement staff's
13 position is not only clear in the Notice of
14 Allegations, it was also explained to counsel
15 for Pitino and the institution on multiple
16 occasions."
17 The allegation is anything but clear,
18 and I can't speak for the institution, but the
19 staff has never explained the allegation to me
20 or my client once, much less on multiple
21 occasions.
22 The staff has alleged that Coach
23 Pitino failed to monitor by, one, failing to
24 frequently spot check the program; two, not
25 actively looking for red flags; three, not
Page 267
1 asking pointed questions; and, four, not
2 regularly soliciting honest feedback.
3 Notice of Allegations came out in
4 about mid October, and I spent at least the
5 first 45 days or more scouring the case file,
6 the on-line custodial file, reading every
7 transcript cover-to-cover, all the other
8 documents in the FI, which is the information
9 that the staff has cited to in support of the
10 allegation, looking for a red flag, looking for
11 something that will give me a hint or a
12 suggestion about what it was specifically that
13 the staff was alleging that my client did that
14 constituted a failure to monitor, and I didn't
15 see any evidence.
16 I spoke with Chuck. Chuck has been
17 involved in the case, actively involved in the
18 case, much longer than I had. Some of you may
19 know, when he represented Coach in one of these
20 proceedings, other than representing your coach
21 at his interview with the enforcement staff, you
22 are really directed to stand down while the
23 enforcement staff conducts their investigation.
24 Chuck, however, was actively involved
25 in the investigation, and by the time the Notice
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1 of Allegations had been released, he could speak
2 to me. So I asked Chuck, I said, Chuck, what am
3 I missing here? Where's the red flag? And he
4 said, Scott, there aren't any.
5 At that point we were in the middle of
6 the summer, and I was in the midst of preparing
7 my response on behalf of my client to the Notice
8 of Allegations and I wanted to know, I said
9 there must be something here that I am missing.
10 So, I sent an e-mail to the
11 enforcement staff, and I asked them to please
12 tell us, one, specifically what spot checks the
13 staff believes Coach Pitino should have been
14 doing to uncover existing or potential
15 compliance problems?
16 Two, specifically, what red flags the
17 staff believes existed but that Coach Pitino
18 failed to look for and evaluate. That's their
19 allegation.
20 Three, specifically what pointed
21 questions Coach Pitino should have been asking
22 and of whom?
23 And finally I asked specifically how
24 Coach Pitino should have been soliciting honest
25 feedback to determine if monitoring systems were
Page 269
1 functioning properly.
2 And in asking for this information, we
3 told the staff in our e-mail that the answers to
4 these questions will help Coach Pitino and me to
5 respond fully to the allegation and make sure
6 that you, the Committee on Infractions, have
7 complete information to adjudicate this
8 allegation. And we are entitled to that
9 information. Bylaw 19.7.1 states that
10 institutions and involved individuals shall be
11 given notice of the details of the allegation,
12 the details.
13 If the staff is going to charge a head
14 coach with a Level I violation for failing to
15 actively look for red flags, identifying what
16 red flags he allegedly failed to look for is the
17 basic and fundamental detail of the allegation.
18 If the staff is going to charge a head
19 coach with a Level I violation for not asking
20 pointed questions, we are entitled to know what
21 pointed questions the staff thinks should have
22 been asked and of whom. And the same goes for
23 the spot checks they claim he should have been
24 doing and soliciting honest feedback.
25 The answer we got back was the staff
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 Page 270
1 feels as though the allegation speaks for itself
2 and will leave it up to you and Coach Pitino to
3 respond as you see fit.
4 Well, the allegation does not speak
5 for itself when the question is what red flags
6 existed? The allegation does not even hint at
7 what red flags the staff think existed. The
8 allegation does not speak for itself when the
9 question is what pointed questions should have
10 been asked and of whom? The allegation does not
11 speak for itself and we want to know what spot
12 checks the staff thinks Pitino should have
13 conducted? The allegation does not speak for
14 itself and we want to know what the staff means
15 when they say Pitino wasn't soliciting honest
16 feedback.
17 I respectfully submit to you that the
18 staff has failed in its obligation to provide us
19 with the details of the allegation. And that's
20 serious. This is a serious matter of
21 potentially very serious consequences.
22 If they are going to charge a head
23 coach with a potentially career-ending
24 violation, they should at least give the coach
25 enough information so that he and his attorney
Page 271
1 know what they are talking about. This is not
2 supposed to be a shell game.
3 The reason they weren't willing or
4 able to tell us what red flags Pitino failed to
5 look for and evaluate is because there were no
6 red flags. At the pre-hearing conference, I
7 said to the staff that their allegation
8 presupposes that red flags existed. If they are
9 going to allege that the head coach failed to
10 look for and evaluate red flags, there had to
11 have been some red flags. You can't evaluate a
12 red flag that doesn't exist.
13 The staff told me, "Scott, we are not
14 necessarily saying that any red flags existed.
15 We are just saying that Pitino wasn't looking
16 for them."
17 So, let's be very clear about this.
18 What the staff is asking you to do is to make a
19 Level I finding against the head coach because
20 they think he failed to look for something that
21 they admit never existed. And the staff
22 continued this argument in their reply. Even
23 though they basically admitted at the pre-
24 hearing conference that there weren't any red
25 flags, they said this in their reply.
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1 And they said this in their string of
2 presentation today, I believe. "If Pitino saw
3 no red flags in connection with McGee's
4 interactions with then prospective and current
5 student-athletes, it was because he was not
6 looking for them." Here's my response to that
7 argument. "If Coach Pitino did not see any red
8 flags, it was because there were never any red
9 flags to see."
10 And Pitino wasn't the only one to
11 never see a red flag. The assistant coaches,
12 administrative staff, dorm security, Housing
13 Department RAs and about half of the basketball
14 team never saw a single red flag. It was not
15 because they weren't looking, it's because no
16 red flags ever existed.
17 There is another misleading narrative
18 the staff has asserted to try to convince you to
19 make the finding against Coach Pitino. The
20 staff has argued that Coach Pitino should have
21 taken a more active role in monitoring McGee and
22 activities under McGee's supervision by asking
23 McGee pointed questions and soliciting honest
24 feedback. This is in the reply at Pages 33 to
25 34.
Page 273
1 And in support of this argument, the
2 staff says that McGee was like a student host
3 and that despite the program's heavy reliance on
4 McGee during on-campus recruiting activities,
5 which included monitoring activities at Minardi,
6 no men's basketball staff member, including
7 Pitino, ever specifically asked McGee what the
8 prospects did to consume their time once they
9 were under his watch in the dormitory.
10 They say at Page 50 of the reply, "The
11 enforcement staff asserts that the men's
12 basketball program under Pitino's direction
13 relied on McGee so much that one former
14 assistant men's basketball coach described
15 McGee's interactions with visiting prospects
16 similar to those of a student host, the role
17 Pitino singled out as truly being responsible
18 for monitoring visiting prospects."
19 And finally they say this, and Mr.
20 Leffler said it again during his presentation
21 today, "Asking prospects and student hosts about
22 their previous night is a much less effective
23 monitoring mechanism than addressing the
24 questions directly with McGee, the adult staff
25 member embedded in Minardi to monitor the
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1 prospects and student-athletes at night. Pitino 1 trouble. I told them exactly what I want them
2 should have inquired of McGee and monitored him 2 to stay away from. Not in a million years would
3 directly but he opted not to do so." 3 or could I ever fathom in my wildest nightmare
4 There is a lot there, so I am going to 4 anything like this."
5 break it down. First, Tim Fuller, a former 5 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr.
6 assistant coach, did say McGee had 6 Tompsett, can I just ask you to pause there? It
7 responsibilities similar to that of a student 7 was my understanding that you gave us this
8 host but just because he said it doesn't make it 8 written document to facilitate this discussion.
9 true. And the staff knows that McGee was never 9 I didn't anticipate that you would be reading it
10 expected or told to act like a student host. A 10 word for word when we can read it for ourselves,
11 student host's main responsibility is to 11 Is there a way to highlight the point that you
12 entertain prospects, show them a good time, take 12 want to make or do you feel it's essential that
13 them out, introduce them to other students, take 13 you read every word to us?
14 them to parties and make sure they enjoy 14 MR. TOMPSETT: How about this? On
15 themselves. That's what a student host 15 some of the excerpts it's important that I read
16 primarily does. 16 word for word. On the ones that I think it's
17 McGee was never expected to entertain 17 not important, I will try to summarize those.
18 prospects, and Pitino made that clear at his 18 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: All right,
19 interview. I am going to read from the excerpts 19 that's a fair approach.
20 now. 20 MR. TOMPSETT: Okay. So, although the
21 "Leffler: Between the hours of 10:00 21 staff would like it to be true that McGee had
22 p.m. and 6:00 a.m. when the coaches aren't 22 duties like a student host, that McGee was
23 necessarily there at Minardi Hall, was that when 23 supposed to be like a social director for the
24 Andre, when he was working there in the capacity 24 prospects and keep them entertained, that's
25 as a GA and the OPS person, was he responsible 25 simply not true. At night in the dorm McGee's
Page 275 Page 277
1 for monitoring those prospects when they were in 1 job was primarily noise control and make sure
2 Minardi? 2 the kids wake up on time the next morning. So
3 "Pitino: Well, obviously he was doing 3 it is a false narrative to argue that McGee had
4 the wrong things. He was -- he is supposed to 4 job duties to entertain the young men at night
5 be responsible for noise control, making sure 5 like a student host.
6 they get up on time. He's not responsible, the 6 And because McGee wasn't responsible
7 host is supposed to be the one that's 7 for entertaining the young men, it's mind
8 responsible. 8 boggling to me that the staff would argue that
9 "Leffler: So the GAs and the OPS 9 it would have been more effective to ask McGee
10 person? 10 what the young men did at night rather than
11 "Pitino: GAs are not supposed to go 11 directly ask the student-athletes and the
12 out with the recruits, not supposed to do those 12 prospects.
13 things. 13 Pitino did not expect McGee to keep
14 "Leffler: Okay. When the prospects 14 track of the kids every move like a mother hen.
15 are in Minardi, the GA is not supposed to-- 15 That's not reasonable. These are young men and
16 doesn't have a responsibility for making sure 16 they can and should make their own decisions
17 that the prospect and what they are doing are 17 about what they want to do in their free time.
18 within NCAA rules? 18 McGee was supposed to be in the dorm,
19 "Pitino: Yeah, he's to know what's 19 go about his personal business, and get involved
20 going on in there and we ask the next day when 20 only if things got out of hand. So, under those
21 we have breakfast what did you do and where did 21 circumstances, why would it be more effective to
22 you go? You know, I told the hosts constantly 22 ask McGee what the young men did last night
23 stay away from Fourth Street Live, stay away 23 rather than going directly to the young men?
24 from there, stay out of bars, no under-age 24 And Kevin Keatts, this is the next
25 drinking, nothing like that. Stay away from 25 section in the interview transcripts excerpts,
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1 he did say that McGee was asked questions. He
2 said Andre was asked questions, student-athletes
3 were asked questions, prospects were asked
4 questions. This is one of those I won't read
5 word for word, Dr. Cartwright, you have the
6 transcript excerpt.
7 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Yes, thank
8 you.
9 MR. TOMPSETT: While we are talking
10 about Keatts, and I believe that this, yes, this
11 excerpt is from his second interview, the
12 interview that I conducted that Mr. Leffler
13 referenced during his presentation, just last
14 month actually. We summarized Keatts' second
15 interview in our supplemental response, which
16 you have. I believe if you read our
17 supplemental response, if you read his first
18 interview transcript and his second interview
19 transcript, it is clear that he wasn't just
20 changing his information to suit the purpose.
21 At his second interview, he clarified
22 information that wasn't clear from the first
23 interview. And I will leave it to the Committee
24 to look at those two transcripts on their own
25 time.
Page 279
1 I am going to move to the next area.
2 I want to talk about, because Mr. Leffler said
3 during his presentation, and it's also in the
4 reply, what I am going to characterize as really
5 what the staff has minimized and trivialized the
6 information that Pitino and his staff asked
7 questions about the previous night's activities.
8 Much of what you have in the handout
9 is excerpts that I took from various
10 transcripts. You have coaching staff members.
11 You have Pitino, Kenny Johnson, Kevin Keatts,
12 Mike Balado, Ralph Willard, head coach and four
13 assistant coaches who served under Coach Pitino
14 at various times during the period in question
15 here when the illicit activities were going on.
16 And they explained very clearly that
17 it was standard protocol, standard procedure to
18 ask the young men at breakfast what did you do
19 last night? How did you spend your time? Did
20 you go out? Did you stay in? Did you meet
21 anybody? Who did you hang out with?
22 So, any suggestion by the enforcement
23 staff that Coach Pitino and his staff were not
24 inquiring about how prospects spent their free
25 time after they were dropped off after dinner is
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1 simply false and I don't think it's even a close
2 call. I think it's absolutely refuted by the
3 clear weight of the evidence, the weight of the
4 reliable and credible evidence.
5 We also included excerpts from
6 student-athletes or prospects, they were
7 prospects when they came in and later student-
8 athletes. And several prospects and student-
9 athletes said that they were asked by either
10 Pitino or other coaches what did you do last
11 night? How did you spend your time?
12 Several of them said that although
13 they had been involved in the illicit activities
14 the night before, they did not tell Pitino or
15 the coaches about the strip shows and they said
16 why, several of them. Because it was
17 embarrassing. Marcus Georges-Hunt, "I just felt
18 it was something to keep to myself."
19 Student-athletes who acted as hosts,
20 they were asked questions. The coaches said
21 that. Mangkok Mathiang, who I believe was
22 somebody who Coach Pitino may have relied on
23 perhaps more than some of the other young men to
24 act as a student host, he said the coaches asked
25 what he did at night when he hosted visiting
Page 281
1 prospects? Did you guys go anywhere? Did you
2 stay at the dorm? What did you do? What did
3 you guys get into?
4 So, it wasn't just the prospects, it
5 wasn't just the student hosts. Coach Pitino
6 said, I believe Ralph Willard also said that it
7 was standard protocol, Coach Pitino's recruiting
8 process, after a prospect returned home during a
9 visit to call the prospect's parents. And Coach
10 Willard explained why it was important to do
11 that. He just didn't say we did it, he
12 explained the purpose. Because he said when you
13 are recruiting a prospective student-athlete,
14 it's also important to recruit the parents.
15 So, after the young men returned home,
16 we would call and talk to the parents because it
17 was important to Coach Pitino and staff to find
18 out if there were any concerns about the young
19 man's visit because if there were, they wanted
20 to address them.
21 Never a single red flag, never a
22 single concern raised from either the prospects,
23 the student-athletes or the parents.
24 I want to turn now to some of the
25 information that the staff has cited to in their
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1 reply for their argument that Coach Pitino 1 about what happened the night before. But the
2 really wasn't asking questions about the night 2 strip show is what happened the night before, so
3 before or maybe wasn't asking the right 3 if the investigator was trying to ask McClinton
4 question. Let's talk first about George 4 if Pitino asked generally what he had done the
5 McClinton. 5 previous night, the investigator asked the wrong
6 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: For 6 question.
7 everyone following, I think I am following, you 7 McClinton made a second visit in
8 are now on No. 14 on your list, correct? 8 October 2011, and he was entertained with
9 MR. TOMPSETT: I think I followed your 9 another strip show. Here's the full extent of
10 direction. 10 what the investigators asked McClinton about
11 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I 11 whether Pitino asked him questions about what he
12 appreciate that, and I think everyone else does. 12 did at night.
13 MR. LEFFLER: And just for the record, 13 "Strothkamp: Did Coach Pitino and
14 I think Mr. Tompsett is going to be referring to 14 Coach Keatts ask you about the night, previous
15 Greg McClinton, not George. 15 night in Minardi?
16 MR. TOMPSETT: Greg McClinton. This 16 "McClinton: No."
17 is one that I need to go through in a little bit 17 So, McClinton was asked a very narrow
18 more detail, Dr. Cartwright. 18 question, did the coaches ask you about the
19 After McClinton explained to the 19 previous night in Minardi? He wasn't asked did
20 investigators that he was entertained with a 20 the coaches ask you what you did last night?
21 strip show in the dorm during his visit to 21 How was your night? Did you have a good time?
22 campus December 2010, this is the exchange that 22 The question was narrowly focused on the
23 took place, and you have int in front of you. 23 previous night in Minardi at which a strip show
24 "Strothkamp: Did Coach Pitino ask you 24 occurred.
25 about what had happened the night before? 25 This is a serious matter, of serious
Page 283 Page 285
1 "McClinton: No. He talked to me 1 consequences. If the staff is going to ask you
2 about the dorm, like how nice the dorm was, and 2 to rely on testimony to hold a head coach
3 he told me how they raised money for that but he 3 accountable for a Level I violation, it should
4 didn't really ask me about what happened the 4 be clear that the witness said and meant what
5 night before. 5 the staff wants you to believe he said and
6 "Strothkamp: He didn't ask you that? 6 meant. There shouldn't be room for ambiguity,
7 "McClinton: No, we didn't talk about 7 doubt or different interpretations.
8 that." 8 Marcus Lee is another example. The
9 This is the information the staff 9 question that Lee was asked, "Did you ever talk
10 cites to at Footnote 112 in their reply, and 10 to Coach Pitino after the show during your
11 they think that this information supports the 11 visit?
12 allegation that Pitino failed to monitor. I 12 "Lee: I think we did. I am sure we
13 disagree. 13 talked.
14 McClinton said that Pitino did not ask 14 "Leffler: Did Coach Pitino ever ask
15 about what had happened the night before. Well, 15 you about your stay in the dormitory at all
16 what happened the night before is that McGee 16 during your discussions with him?"
17 brought strippers to the dorm, which is what 17 Lee said no.
18 McClinton had just finished describing to the 18 And then he was asked, "Well, did any
19 investigator before he was asked if Pitino asked 19 of the coaches? Did you talk to any of the
20 about what happened the night before. 20 coaches about what happened during the night at
21 Of course, Pitino didn't ask McClinton 21 the dorm?
22 about the strip show because he didn't know 22 "No." That's it.
23 about the strip show. Neither the investigator 23 And again, as with McClinton's
24 nor McClinton ever specified what exactly they 24 testimony, the question is very narrow. "Did
25 are referring to when they used the general term 25 they ask you about what happened during the
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1 night at the dorm?"
2 "What happened during the night at the
3 dorm is there was a strip show and, of course,
4 the coaches didn't ask about the strip show
5 because they didn't know about the strip show."
6 So, JaQuan Lyle, this is another
7 transcript that the staff cites to in their
8 reply, it's included in the excerpts, and I
9 think this is probably a theme that probably
10 permeated throughout several of the young men's
11 interviews with the staff, and that is their
12 inability to recall or their lack of
13 recollection. Here's a young man who was asked
14 about a visit that he made I believe just two
15 years before the interview. Yeah, he made his
16 visit in September 2013 and he was interviewed
17 in October 2015.
18 During a five-page, just a five-page
19 excerpt in his interview, he said "I can't
20 remember" 12 times. At one point he said, "I
21 don't really remember nothing, that's so long
22 ago." He struggled to even recall who
23 accompanied him on his visit. He didn't even
24 remember his mother came on the visit.
25 This is a young man who is trying to
Page 287
1 recall something that happened two years earlier
2 when he was a high school student being
3 recruited by dozens of institutions and
4 traveling all over the country for visits and
5 competition.
6 Of course he's not sure whether he met
7 with Pitino or not. If he did meet with Pitino,
8 he probably doesn't recall with any certainty
9 exactly what they said to each other.
10 But that's the type of unreliable
11 testimony the staff wants you to rely on to make
12 a finding against Pitino. The staff wants you
13 to rely on memories of young men who are trying
14 to recall a 15 or 20-minute conversation that
15 occurred two, three or four years earlier when
16 they were high school students and their lives
17 were filled with visits all over the country and
18 conversations with top coaches all over the
19 country.
20 Anton Gill is another example. He was
21 asked "Did he," referring to Coach Pitino, "Did
22 he talk to you or ask you how your night went
23 when you stayed at Minardi?
24 "Gill: Pitino?
25 "Leffler: Yes.
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1 "Gill: I am not sure.
2 "Leffler: You are not sure?
3 "Gill: If anything, it was probably
4 like how was your night. He didn't like like--
5 and I probably just said good or something but
6 it wasn't anything."
7 So, first, the young man candidly
8 admitted that he didn't recall a conversation
9 that happened four years earlier, which is a
10 very reasonable response, and then he speculated
11 about what was said, but acknowledged that
12 Pitino probably asked him how was your night?
13 As the interview went forward, the
14 investigator asked if the coaches asked Gill
15 specifically how your night went at Minardi?
16 Gill said that question was not asked.
17 So what? Why is asking specifically
18 how was your night at Minardi the only question
19 that satisfies a duty to monitor? Why is that
20 the magic question?
21 If the coach is trying to learn as
22 much as possible about the previous night's
23 activities, he's going to ask broader questions
24 like how was your night? What did you do last
25 night? Did you have fun? Did you go out? Did
Page 289
1 you stay in? Did you meet anyone? And those
2 are the types of questions that Coach Pitino was
3 asking.
4 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICE: Mr.
5 Tompsett, if I could just interrupt you briefly.
6 I think for the record we want to acknowledge
7 that the President had to leave. He has a once
8 a year very significant event that he is hosting
9 that was scheduled over a year ago, and we
10 talked about the fact that he would need to
11 leave, and he has assigned someone to make his
12 closing remarks. But we should show in the
13 record that he has departed. Thank you. Go
14 ahead.
15 MR. TOMPSETT; thank you. I would
16 also note that Gill was one of the prospects who
17 completed the prospect declaration form and he
18 falsely stated on the form that he had not
19 received cash for entertainment purposes. When
20 asked why, he said, "I would have jeopardized my
21 chance to play because I made a bad decision."
22 So Gill was, in fact, asked a very direct and
23 pointed question about his visit activities and
24 he did not answer truthfully.
25 That brings me to my next point, which
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1 is the record is replete with credible and
2 reliable information, that Coach Pitino wanted
3 to be kept informed of what went on in his
4 program, that he paid attention to what went on
5 in his program by observing, asking questions
6 and monitoring his players' social networking
7 accounts. It's clear that no reasonable
8 monitoring would have or could have uncovered
9 McGee's illicit activities.
10 It would not have mattered what
11 pointed questions Pitino asked or of whom.
12 McGee knew that what he was doing was wrong and
13 he certainly was not going to tell his boss that
14 he was running strippers through the dorm.
15 The young men involved in the illicit
16 activity did not and would not have told anyone
17 either. Keep in mind, some of the young men
18 told investigators that they didn't tell their
19 own parents about the strip shows. Some of the
20 young men were given immunity at the request of
21 the enforcement staff in order to coax them to
22 tell the truth. Some of the young men lied to
23 experienced investigators when asked about
24 strippers in the dorm.
25 So, on top of asking you to find a
Page 291
1 Level I violation against a head coach for
2 failing to look for something that the staff
3 admits never existed in the first place, they
4 are also asking you to find a Level I violation
5 for not uncovering something that no reasonable
6 monitoring could have uncovered. And I believe
7 the staff acknowledges this in their reply.
8 They say at Page 44 of their reply in
9 their written responses, "The institution and
10 Pitino assert that the resident assistant and
11 security guards at Minardi were unaware of these
12 incidents and that Pitino should not be expected
13 to learn of these incidents through
14 questioning."
15 The enforcement staff asserts that
16 this argument is flawed. The allegation does
17 not state that Pitino should have detected or
18 known about the violations. Rather, the
19 allegation states that Pitino failed to
20 demonstrate that he satisfied his obligation to
21 monitor McGee's activities, including those of
22 prospects and student-athletes.
23 They say again at Page 46 of the
24 reply, "Again the allegation does not state that
25 Pitino knew or should have known about the
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1 violations, rather the enforcement staff alleges
2 that Pitino failed to demonstrate that he
3 monitored McGee as required by NCAA rules."
4 They have set the bar really low for
5 themselves. They want you to find a Level I
6 violation against this coach, not because he
7 failed to do something that would have prevented
8 or uncovered the violations, they basically
9 admit that there is nothing he reasonably could
10 have done that would have made a difference.
11 They want you to make the finding because he
12 allegedly didn't actively look for and evaluate
13 red flags that never even existed and because he
14 allegedly didn't ask pointed questions, although
15 they won't tell us what pointed questions he
16 should have asked and of whom, and because he
17 allegedly did conduct frequent spot checks,
18 although they won't tell us how he should have
19 conducted spot checks and what frequency would
20 be sufficient, and because he allegedly didn't
21 solicit honest feedback. And I am not even sure
22 what that means, as if he was soliciting
23 dishonest feedback.
24 I am going to read to you part of the
25 2004 rationale for the head coach control. The
Page 293
1 head coach control legislation was originally
2 passed in 2004 and there was, of course, a
3 proposal that explained the legislative intent
4 and purpose of the bylaw, and I am just going to
5 read two sentences from the rationale.
6 "The head coach has an obligation to
7 promote a culture of compliance among the entire
8 team, including assistant coaches, other staff
9 and student-athletes. The head coach must
10 monitor the activities of assistant coaches and
11 staff to determine if they are acting in
12 compliance with NCAA rules."
13 The purpose of the monitoring
14 component is to make a head coach monitor for
15 the purpose of determining if his staff is
16 acting in compliance with NCAA rules. And if
17 the coach does what he reasonably can do to
18 determine if his staff has acted in compliance,
19 that coach has satisfied his duty to monitor.
20 The rule does not require the coach to do
21 anything that is not going to help him determine
22 if his staff is acting in compliance with NCAA
23 legislation.
24 A coach does not have to monitor just
25 for the sake of monitoring. The monitoring is
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1 supposed to be directed at helping him determine
2 if his staff is acting in compliance.
3 And, again, let's be clear, the staff
4 has not alleged that Coach Pitino should have
5 either known about the illicit activities or
6 detected them.
7 I would say to you that the
8 enforcement staff does not get to say that Coach
9 failed to monitor just because they think there
10 are some other vague unspecified things they
11 think the coach should have done, even though
12 they admit that nothing the coach could have
13 reasonably done would have helped him determine
14 that his staff was not acting in compliance.
15 And the COI has recognized this. The
16 COI, years ago in the principles of
17 institutional control, said if a coach sets a
18 proper tone of compliance and monitors his
19 staff, the coach cannot be charged with the
20 secretive activities of an assistant bent on
21 violating NCAA rules. The monitoring part of
22 the head coach control legislation was never
23 intended to apply to cases like this one where
24 the coach did everything he reasonably could do
25 to monitor but an assistant went off and
Page 295
1 deliberately violated the rules and kept it
2 hidden.
3 Finally, in deciding if Coach Pitino
4 adequately monitored, let's look at what the COI
5 has said the coach is required to do. The COI
6 has said the head coach must generally observe
7 the activities of assistant coaches and staff to
8 determine if they are acting in compliance with
9 NCAA rules.
10 And, again, if the head coach sets the
11 proper tone of compliance and monitors the
12 activities of all assistant coaches in the
13 sport, the head coach cannot be charged with the
14 secretive activities of an assistant bent on
15 violating NCAA rules.
16 In the University of Connecticut men's
17 basketball case, the COI further explained the
18 head coach's duty to monitor. In that case the
19 Committee said Bylaw 11.1.2.1 confers a duty
20 upon head coaches to monitor their programs and
21 establish an atmosphere for compliance.
22 The bylaw was enacted to hold head
23 coaches responsible for violations and
24 establishes a presumption that they are aware of
25 the activities of those working under them in
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1 their programs. While it does not require them
2 to investigate possible wrongdoing, it does
3 require them to recognize potential problems,
4 address them and report them to the athletics
5 administration.
6 So, head coaches are required to
7 generally observe and they are not required to
8 investigate possible wrongdoing. When potential
9 problems exist and they can be seen through
10 general observation, head coaches are required
11 to react.
12 But in this case, the staff has
13 charged Coach Pitino with a Level I violation,
14 not because he failed to generally observe, not
15 because he failed to recognize a red flag, not
16 because there was some situation that created a
17 heightened risk for violations, and he failed to
18 monitor that situation, none of those things are
19 present in this case. And if you look at the
20 previous failure to monitor cases from the
21 inception of the bylaw to present, in virtually
22 every one of those failure to monitor cases, you
23 will see one of those three things present.
24 They are not here, not in this case.
25 In this case the staff has said that
Page 297
1 Pitino failed to frequently spot check the
2 program, failed to ask pointed questions and
3 failed to do more to uncover activity that was
4 so secret and kept so well hidden that not even
5 the security guards, the RA staff and the
6 teammates of the young men involved in the strip
7 shows knew about it.
8 To uncover the illicit activities in
9 this case, Coach Pitino would have had to do
10 exactly what the COI has said he is not required
11 to do. He would have had to stop being a
12 basketball coach and become an investigator. He
13 would have had to conduct an investigation
14 without any reason to believe that anything
15 illicit was happening.
16 Let's be clear. The only way Coach
17 Pitino was going to discover the illicit
18 activities is if he had gotten out of bed and
19 conducted a surprise in the middle of the night
20 visit to Minardi Hall on one of the nights the
21 strip shows were going on.
22 The staff's allegation attempts to
23 impose a standard of monitoring on Pitino that
24 the NCAA membership and the COI expressly
25 rejected. If the NCAA membership wants head
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1 coaches to be zealous investigators and actively
2 conduct pointed and probing investigations when
3 there is not even a single red flag or sign of
4 potential violations, then the membership should
5 also start giving seminars and training to head
6 coaches on how to be investigators.
7 Until then this Committee should
8 follow well-established precedent and dismiss
9 the charge against this head coach. Thank you.
10 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
11 I would like to begin by asking Mr. Pitino a
12 question. I know from your presentation this
13 morning that Minardi Hall was very important to
14 you because of the family association and your
15 commitment to raising money for it and so forth.
16 It's a very small hall and it's very full of
17 basketball people. There are 38 beds and 32 or
18 30 of them at any given time are filled by
19 basketball student-athletes and/or basketball
20 staff.
21 That to me suggests a risk environment
22 that requires someone to have done a thorough
23 risk analysis and a mitigation plan. Were any
24 of those ideas in your mind as you were thinking
25 about the construction of Minardi? I know you
Page 299
1 thought about honoring your brother-in-law, and
2 someone has said it was a coach's dream to have
3 everyone there together, which is certainly not
4 the case as we have seen.
5 But was it ever in your mind that
6 because it is such a closed environment and it
7 is so full of basketball people that there are
8 risks here that we have to take into account and
9 we have to do something special to mitigate
10 against those risks?
11 MR. PITINO: Well, I think it would be
12 a greater risk to have other people that you
13 don't know in there in terms of drug use, in
14 terms of alcohol use. You have what the NCAA
15 mandates, that I think the number is what, 50
16 percent, less than 50 percent has to be non-
17 athlete and that's what we -- no difference than
18 Kansas, no different than Kentucky, Texas and so
19 many other places that all have this type of
20 dormitory. It's probably over 30 or 40 of them
21 in America today.
22 This is not the norm, what happened.
23 It's very easy to know where your players are,
24 what time they get in, who is coming in, who is
25 going out, than if they had apartments elsewhere
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1 or if they are in a different type dorm. So, as
2 far as security and monitoring them, it's much
3 easier being under one roof like this.
4 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I think my
5 point is that because there were so few non-
6 basketball people in that residence hall, there
7 was much less opportunity for checks and
8 balances? It was all in the family, so to
9 speak, which I think is part of the reason for
10 the 50 percent rule.
11 MR. PITINO: Well, prior to this, all
12 in the family was a very good thing. And in
13 this one incident of this one person, it's not a
14 good thing. But I think the amount of study
15 halls, and discipline and people coming in to
16 speak, the term was alluded to that Coach Pitino
17 was hardly there. Well, I would venture to say
18 and, Coach, you can back me up on this how much
19 college coaches go into dormitories. But, you
20 know, I was in there, once or twice a week. I
21 was there every time we had film the night
22 before a game, occasional breakfasts with the
23 players. When families would come in on
24 Sundays, I would see them. But I didn't think
25 it was my place to spend a lot of time in that
Page 301
1 dormitory because that's their home.
2 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: But I
3 think you are telling me that you really didn't
4 think a lot about risk. You thought a lot about
5 advantages.
6 MR. PITINO: I thought about all the
7 good things that you can create with a family
8 and that we try to preach family. Every slogan
9 at the end of our one, two, three at the end of
10 practice, we say family, and we try to create a
11 family atmosphere where we care for each other,
12 we watch out for each other. If somebody is
13 doing something wrong, we try to correct it, and
14 prior to this it worked out very well.
15 It certainly worked out academically,
16 it certainly worked out when there has been
17 trouble like I alluded to earlier about the
18 hover boards and there have been other isolated
19 incidents. The other dormitories with all the
20 other students, there is much more freedoms to
21 get into trouble and we don't feel we had that
22 there prior to this situation.
23 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
24 Thank you. Panel members, any questions?
25 MR. CARNS: Excuse me. Can I just
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1 interject. I was the one that used the term, I
2 think, in my interview a compliance person's
3 dream for Minardi, and that was under similar to
4 what Coach was alluding to.
5 You have, you know, all your student-
6 athletes in one building, you have got a smaller
7 setting there, less opportunity to get in
8 trouble. You have an RA there, and on top of
9 that you have a couple extra athletic staff
10 there to monitor their activities.
11 So, from that point, you know, when we
12 are looking at off-campus apartments, we are
13 monitoring, you know, where are you living, who
14 is their landlord? Who is paying the rent? Are
15 they paying the rent? All of those things are
16 obviously not an issue when they are all living
17 in the same dorm and when I used that term, a
18 compliance person's dream, that's --
19 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Right. I
20 understood the context in which it was being
21 used. Thanks. Mr. Hill.
22 MR. HILL: I have a question. I am
23 curious, who is ultimately responsible for the
24 operation of the residence hall for Minardi? I
25 am not clear. I hear us talking about the
Page 303
1 athletic staff. I didn't hear Mr. Tompsett say
2 once about the RA, about EDR. Who is ultimately
3 responsible?
4 MR. TOMPSETT: I will take that and I
5 think Chuck wants to follow up. It wasn't in my
6 presentation, you are right. It was included in
7 our initial response.
8 The residence hall, it was run by the
9 Housing Department in conjunction with EDR. My
10 understanding is the Athletics Department, and
11 certainly Coach Pitino and the men's basketball
12 staff, had no influence as to, you know, really
13 the day-to-day operations or the running of that
14 residence hall. It was run by the Housing
15 Department, it was staffed by an RA that was
16 hired by the Housing Department, trained by the
17 Housing Department, reported to the Housing
18 Department, so it was run by the Housing
19 Department and then EDR.
20 MS. STROHM: And may I clarify that
21 for the record, please? And this is what you
22 suggested earlier you wanted to get in the
23 record in part, but it's also some additional
24 information?
25 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
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1 MS. STROHM: So, the University of
2 Louisville has a number of dorms that are owned
3 by the University. They have other dorms that
4 are available to students that were owned by an
5 affiliated foundation. Minardi, as well as
6 other dorms on campus, were owned by an
7 affiliated foundation. That foundation
8 contracted with EDR to manage not just Minardi
9 but all of the dorms that were owned by the
10 foundation.
11 The RAs then in those dorms that were
12 owned by the foundation and managed by EDR were
13 EDR employees, but they were trained together
14 with the RAs for the University Housing
15 Department. So Housing had some oversight, they
16 were employees of EDR.
17 MR. HILL: In that arrangement, was
18 McGee trained? He was one of the staff. Was he
19 trained as a Housing person?
20 MR. SMRT: He obviously did not work
21 for EDR. EDR did not do less or more because of
22 McGee or a basketball staff member. EDR placed
23 an RA in that dorm, an RA for X number of
24 students, including student-athletes.
25 So, McGee, I think there is a lot of
Page 305
1 focus on somehow McGee is affiliated or that
2 somehow because McGee's there, EDR did less.
3 EDR did the same at Minardi as they did to the
4 next hall down. They had an RA, they had
5 security, they had security rounds that the RA
6 made and that another individual came from
7 another dorm and made.
8 The security precautions at Minardi
9 regarding the RAs were the same. What we are
10 talking about is an added layer put on Minardi
11 that, unfortunately, the person there who was
12 supposed to be the eyes of the basketball staff
13 did some things that were improper. You had
14 pretty much the same RA there for a lot of the
15 time period. That RA had nothing to do -- was
16 not chosen by basketball. That RA was chosen by
17 EDR.
18 Nothing less happened or no less
19 precautions were taken away by EDR because of
20 McGee or anybody else on the basketball staff
21 being there.
22 MR. PITINO: In terms of Andre McGee,
23 the reason as a program assistant, graduate
24 assistant, he was there to work on his Master's
25 degree, so he's part of room, board, books and
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1 tuition staying in that dormitory. When he was
2 operations coach, he lived in an apartment and
3 then the next GA came in. So, he's not
4 responsible for dorm activities, that's not his
5 function.
6 MR. HILL: What I am trying to get at,
7 and, Coach, I am just trying to get a better
8 understanding of the organizational structure.
9 What has gotten a little confused, who would a
10 student with an issue at one of the other
11 residence halls call? Would they get in touch
12 with EDR, the Housing or somebody else, because
13 in this case the coach clearly talked about when
14 something went wrong, they would call coach to
15 figure out to get it right. Do you see what I
16 am saying?
17 For me there is some confusion here
18 about who is in control, who is in charge, and
19 when you say red flag, I am going to be very
20 honest with you, as former Vice President for
21 Student Affairs that ran Housing, that is a huge
22 red flag. And somebody help me understand this
23 because the way this thing is mixed, if I am an
24 RA, I would be really confused. I wouldn't know
25 who was taking charge of what, when, where and
Page 307
1 how, because we talked about two or three
2 different layers on this thing. You are right,
3 there is another layer, but I think that layer
4 adds confusion.
5 MR. TOMPSETT: My understanding is
6 that the RA ultimately, he was in charge and he
7 had oversight of every resident in the dorm,
8 including McGee. And as to who somebody would
9 call if there was a problem, we have a real life
10 example of that that we included in our initial
11 response; somewhere toward the end of the
12 response when we talk about some lapses at
13 Minardi, in the monitoring system at Minardi,
14 not the basketball part. But where a security
15 guard made some inappropriate advances toward a
16 young woman in a student manager's room, okay?
17 Who did the student manager call? He
18 called the RA. So, my understanding, and the
19 institution can correct me if I am wrong, but my
20 understanding from the record is that the RA, he
21 was in charge of that dorm. That was his dorm,
22 and he had oversight for the dorm. McGee would
23 have been below him. And I don't think it's
24 accurate to say that if somebody had a problem,
25 they would just call the coaches.
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1 MR. HILL: I must have missed it,
2 though, but I thought I heard the coach say
3 that. Maybe I didn't hear that right.
4 MR. PITINO: Well, in another case the
5 RA called the coaching office and said there was
6 a dog that was in the dormitory, and they told
7 the student-athlete that the dog can't stay in
8 there, and he called us immediately, we then
9 went to the young athlete and said that dog has
10 to go now. And obviously the next day the dog
11 was gone.
12 So the RAs have called us on many
13 occasions telling us there is something wrong
14 and we had to do something about it. He didn't
15 call Andre McGee, he called our office.
16 MR. TOMPSETT: The RA calling the
17 basketball staff, it wasn't like the RA called
18 the basketball staff and that's the end of it.
19 The RA, and this is described in chapter and
20 verse in I believe Brian Shelling Goskey's
21 interview transcript, Okmon Awadala, who was the
22 RA from 2009 to about 2011, and then Joe
23 McMillan, who was the RA for four or five years
24 and continues to be the RA, they would call the
25 basketball staff as a courtesy to let them know,
Page 309
1 hey, one of your guys did something
2 inappropriate, we are letting you know. But
3 that was after following whatever the official
4 policy is up on through the line of Housing.
5 Prepare to file an instant report that
6 would go to the Housing Department or the Dean
7 of STudents. So, it's not correct that if
8 something goes wrong, well, let's just call the
9 basketball coach and he'll take care of it.
10 MR. HILL: Quite frankly, that's the
11 impression I got.
12 MR. TOMPSETT: Look, I won't speak for
13 them, but I will say for myself I am perfectly
14 capable of not giving -- you know, of creating
15 the wrong impression. If I did, I apologize,
16 but that is absolutely not the way that it
17 happened. And there is information in the
18 record again, Brian Shelling Goskey was the
19 Housing Department supervisor. He was
20 interviewed by the enforcement staff. Joe
21 McMillan is an RA, he was interviewed, Okmon
22 Awadala.
23 And I have read those very carefully
24 and it's very clear to me, because that was one
25 of the things I looked at when I got involved in
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1 the case trying to understand the same issue
2 that you are asking about, Mr. Hill, is this an
3 athletic dorm that the coaches are running it,
4 or is it really, you know, a dorm where it's
5 under some other oversight, Housing or EDR, and
6 it's being run like the other dorms on campus.
7 And my clear understanding is it absolutely was.
8 MR. SMRT: I believe coach's anecdotal
9 examples left you that impression. I would
10 encourage you to read Joe McMillan's transcript
11 and Brian Shelling Goskey's. And if you read
12 that, I think any misconceptions you may have
13 will be eliminated. McMillan is very
14 straightforward in his explanations. If an
15 incident happens, he completes an incident
16 report that goes up the system. If he, by
17 chance, would call basketball and say, oh, by
18 the way, one of your players screwed up, so be
19 it. But his reporting line is not through
20 basketball.
21 So, I can get into a lot more detail
22 about what McMillan and Brian Goskey said, but I
23 think if you would look at that, I think that's
24 going to clear up some of your
25 misunderstandings.
Page 311
1 MR. MADVA: If I can refer people to
2 Page 14 of Joe McMillan's deposition, I am going
3 to summarize it. Underage drinking problem,
4 filed an incident report, it goes to the Dean,
5 University of Louisville, another goes to EDR.
6 The same report goes out whether it's a student-
7 athlete or not, he did give a head's up to the
8 DOBO, who was Padgett, and even though the
9 report went to the Dean of Students. That's
10 Page 14.
11 MR. TOMPSETT: Thank you. I would
12 like to supplement that with what Brian Shelling
13 Goskey said. At some point in Goskey's
14 interview, he was asked by the enforcement staff
15 do you think it's possible that your RA McMillan
16 knew that this stuff was going on or maybe knew
17 women were coming in but it just didn't rise to
18 the level that he felt he needed to write an
19 incident report?
20 Shelling Goskey said no, absolutely
21 not. Joe was very well trained, he's very
22 ethical, he knows our procedure and if he knew
23 that there were strippers in the dorm, he
24 absolutely would have reported it to me. He
25 would have filed an incident report.
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1 Okmon Awadala, who was the other RA
2 who was interviewed by the enforcement staff,
3 here's what he said. Mr. Leffler asked the RA
4 Awadala if you were aware of activities like
5 that going on in Minardi, how would it have been
6 handled, referring to the illicit activities?
7 Awadala said, "I would have reported it directly
8 to our Director of Housing and our Dean of
9 Students because it would be breaking our code
10 of conduct in the dormitory.
11 We had a process for that. We had a
12 standard process for any violations of our code
13 of conduct, and I would write the incident
14 report. I would make sure that that's reported.
15 And we have an escalation process where we
16 always have someone on call from the University
17 affiliated with University Housing, so I would
18 call somebody immediately if I saw anything like
19 that." That's from Awadala's interview
20 transcript at Page 42.
21 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I
22 think Mr. Parkinson has some questions.
23 MR. PARKINSON: I have a few
24 questions. I will try to break them up and ask
25 some of it later probably.
Page 313
1 I want to go back to what the Chair
2 was talking about on risk, and, frankly, I don't
3 understand how this 50 percent rule applied in
4 this particular case. If there is a rule, which
5 makes good sense, which I didn't know about
6 until today, that says 50 percent of the
7 students in a dorm ought not to be athletes, how
8 does it work here where we had testimony already
9 a couple of times this morning, or earlier this
10 afternoon, where there is only six to eight
11 people who are not affiliated with the
12 basketball program who are resident in Minardi,
13 is that because we are counting all the managers
14 and all those people, you know, they don't count
15 towards the 50 percent because they are not
16 student-athletes?
17 MR. SMRT: I would defer to the staff
18 to answer that interpretative question, but I
19 believe that's correct. And that's not unique
20 to the University of Louisville and that's the
21 University following NCAA legislation.
22 MR. PARKINSON: It may not be
23 inconsistent, but I am curious how that's
24 consistent with the philosophy behind the 50
25 percent rule. Maybe somebody can tell me what
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1 the philosophy is. But I assume it's so that
2 student-athletes can interact with lots of other
3 kinds of students on campus and not be a 100
4 percent basketball all the time, or football or
5 whatever sport we are talking about. I would
6 think that would be the philosophy.
7 Whether or not the school is in
8 technical compliance with the 50 percent rule,
9 the reasons it's important, I think, is it goes
10 back to the question that the Chair asked about,
11 about recognizing that when you create a
12 basketball dorm, which only has 38 beds in it,
13 that's a pretty small dorm, at least in my
14 experience, which is dated. But I have been on
15 campuses, and in dorms, that's a pretty small
16 dorm.
17 You are creating a situation right at
18 the outset which I think you've got to concede
19 creates some pretty unique risks and that goes
20 to what the school and what the program put in
21 place to provide for appropriate monitoring.
22 MR. SMRT: I guess I will defer to the
23 staff to provide rationale for legislation
24 passed by the membership, but the staff looked
25 at Minardi Hall in 2014, and for specific
Page 315
1 reasons, and came out where they did. Again I
2 would go back to what John Carns said, you have
3 a dorm, which you have a facility which all your
4 athletes are. If I would offer to a school we
5 will give you security guards at every apartment
6 of every athlete with hand scanners, cameras, it
7 would be unbelievable that they could monitor
8 athletes so closely. That's what you had here.
9 Does it increase risk? Sure. But it
10 increased risk only to the extent that you have
11 more than one person. If two athletes go out
12 and go to a restaurant, you've increased risk.
13 Here you have security guards, cameras, hand
14 scanners, sign-in sheets, you can't have access
15 to the athletes. And you have staff members who
16 live in that facility.
17 That's embedding people literally into
18 your facility to monitor. It's the best type of
19 monitoring system. But, sure, you put all those
20 athletes at increased risk just as three or four
21 athletes going out a night on the town increases
22 risk that a booster is going to give them cash.
23 But you have all of those things that you don't
24 have if the athletes are dispersed.
25 There is always going to be any
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1 athletes, especially a high-risk program like
2 Louisville, you have high-risk athletes. You
3 have got agents and everybody else that wants to
4 get around those folks and now you have got a
5 facility that a security guard is going to stop
6 someone if they come in. You have got a camera,
7 you have got a monitor, you have got an RA, and
8 you have got a basketball staff. If I would
9 offer that to any compliance staff in any
10 institution, they would say we would love to
11 have that.
12 MR. PARKINSON: I guess I don't
13 disagree with that. I do have a question. If
14 this was a dorm of a hundred beds and there were
15 16 to 20 athletes or folks who were
16 participating in a basketball program, what are
17 the chances that this could go on for almost
18 four years and it not come to light? I think
19 it's almost impossible to envision that.
20 I know it's impossible to envision
21 what happened under the circumstances to a lot
22 of people, but part of the risk is that you've
23 created a community that is really tight.
24 You've created a community that's scared to
25 death of a coach, and that's not a criticism at
Page 317
1 all, but it's a reality, everyone says that.
2 And then you throw in an RA. I assume
3 RAs are still students, just normal students
4 like they were when I was an RA? What RA is
5 going to walk into that environment and feel
6 comfortable blowing a whistle on something where
7 90 percent of the dorm is in the club?
8 MR. SMRT: I wouldn't speculate on Joe
9 McMillan's integrity without, you know, giving
10 him a chance to respond to that, because
11 McMillan would tell you he doesn't care about
12 what basketball says because he's an EDR
13 employee.
14 You are right, it's still amazing to
15 us that it didn't get out. What's the
16 probability of a prospect not telling it on
17 social media? It's phenomenal that one of these
18 people did not say something on social media or
19 tell a friend who then that friend posted it.
20 That's what's also very surprising to us.
21 Yes, it's amazing to us that a
22 prospect didn't let it get out or one of these
23 other students, but that's also surmising that
24 one of these other students knew about it, and
25 if some of the other athletes didn't know about
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 Page 318
1 it, it's very likely that some of the students
2 who lived there.
3 But, again, we agree it's surprising
4 that some prospect, and we have got 17 named in
5 this allegation, didn't post something that said
6 you wouldn't believe what happened to me last
7 night at Louisville.
8 MR. TOMPSETT: I just want to
9 piggyback on that just to make the point because
10 this allegation is about my client's monitoring.
11 There is no requirement from the NCAA that
12 coaches monitor student-athletes' social network
13 accounts. He has done that for years
14 voluntarily, on his own, has directed his staff
15 to monitor his players' social media and social
16 networking accounts. It was done throughout
17 this time period. That's monitoring above and
18 beyond what the NCAA expects, and there was
19 never any red flags.
20 MR. PITINO: I will say this. I
21 understand diversity because I didn't live in an
22 athletic dorm as a player at the University of
23 Massachusetts. And there were pitfalls to that
24 in terms of rest and in terms of the type of
25 drug use that was going on in that dormitory,
Page 319
1 the amount of sleep you could possibly get.
2 I will say this, though, there is
3 benefits and there is other things that I would
4 like to see different. The managers that are
5 part of this dormitory, I have a private meeting
6 with them. And I tell them, look, I know
7 blowing the whistle on one of the players is not
8 what you are there for.
9 You are there to help manage the
10 program. Even if you put a note under my door,
11 I won't know who it is, if there is something
12 going wrong. Now, I would never ever, it is
13 just like a pointed question, I would never ask
14 in front of a mom or dad did you meet any
15 hookers last night? Did you have a strip show?
16 I would be so humiliated and embarrassed even
17 for that to come out, and neither would I think
18 of that.
19 I told the managers if you see
20 anything wrong in terms of marijuana use,
21 alcohol, things like that going on in that dorm,
22 leave a note under my door. You don't even have
23 to come see me if you don't want. And there
24 have been notes left under my door by the
25 managers saying, Coach, I would check out, I
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1 smelled something coming out of this room. And
2 I did check it out and we found out that there
3 was marijuana use coming out of that room.
4 So it's not a private club. Andre
5 McGee scared the hell out of these players like
6 Terry Rozier, I don't know this for a fact, I am
7 surmising is that if Coach P ever finds out,
8 Terry, your pro career is over on what you did.
9 I don't know that for a fact, I surmise that.
10 So it's really not a private club.
11 It's a way for us to achieve academic excellence
12 to make sure if we have tutoring there during
13 the day, we can monitor their meals. One of the
14 big things about the dorm, you know, I said this
15 earlier, I have coached at Kentucky and I am not
16 saying that we are beneath Kentucky at all, we
17 have just got a different type of athlete.
18 So I have a young man from Egypt who
19 came in seven foot, 177 pounds. So, one of the
20 most important things at dinnertime is for us to
21 go over there and make sure the young man eats
22 because he doesn't like to eat. And now we
23 finally after three years of pain got him up to
24 226, 227. If that was a regular dormitory, we
25 couldn't do that.
Page 321
1 So I understand what Dr. Cartwright is
2 saying, and I understand what you are alluding
3 to as far as the independence of a student. But
4 these managers are not on the same club that the
5 athletes are in. Some of them aspire to be
6 coaches. As I said earlier, my student manager
7 at Kentucky is the head coach of the Orlando
8 Magic now. You know, they aspire to be coaches
9 some day.
10 So, I have a private meeting with them
11 to make sure that if they see anything wrong
12 going on in that dormitory, never in a million
13 years would I think it was this that I was
14 alluding to to them.
15 MR. TOMPSETT: And one of the managers
16 said exactly what Coach Pitino is communicating
17 to you, this is at Page 446 of our initial
18 response, Michael Brooks was a student manager
19 for 2012 to 2016. He was interviewed by the
20 enforcement staff, and they asked him, "You
21 know, are you surprised by the allegations in
22 the book?" He said, "Yeah."
23 Well, why? He said, "Because I didn't
24 see any of it." He said, "That's what bothers
25 me the most. If I would have been able to see
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1 one thing, I would have been able to say
2 something to somebody and it would not have been
3 like this."
4 "Strothkamp: So if you would have
5 seen something like this occurring, what would
6 you have done, who would you have told?
7 "Brooks: I wanted to get into
8 coaching. I want to get into coaching still.
9 So if I had known something like this was
10 happening and if I could have taken it to the
11 coaching staff, that would have been great for
12 me. I feel like that would show how loyal I was
13 to the program."
14 MR. PITINO: It is a great example.
15 When I first went to my nephews, I got them on a
16 conference call together. I said, "Guys, how
17 could you not see anything at all?" And their
18 response to me was, "I lived right down the hall
19 from him. I never saw a single thing." And not
20 to bring up this, Rob Minardi is a big weight
21 trainer, and he said, "I would have beat the
22 hell out of Andre McGee if I ever knew this was
23 going on."
24 And my nephews who lived there, their
25 uncle and their dad's name is on that building,
Page 323
1 never saw a single thing. The two people in my
2 life that I trust the most that have played for
3 me, one was Billy Donovan at Providence and one
4 was Logan Baumann, who today is our video
5 coordinator. I put him on the team in 2013
6 because we had some injuries from a manager to
7 the team. He is today the head video
8 coordinator.
9 I grilled him for two hours and said,
10 "Logan, you mean to tell me you lived in that
11 dorm, you never saw a single thing?" He said,
12 "Coach, I never saw one thing. I would be in
13 your office that minute if I saw anything like
14 that going on." And I believed any of those
15 managers would have done that at that point
16 because they are not necessarily in love with
17 all the players, the managers.
18 You know, sometimes these guys can be
19 a little condescending and I jump them for being
20 that way. I said we all treat everybody the
21 same way, whether it's one from 15, whether it's
22 a manager, we treat people with great respect
23 and dignity.
24 So, those managers would have loved to
25 come to me if they saw anything and nobody did.
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1 There were no red flags. And then with Andre
2 McGee, when I got him on the phone, my nose
3 started bleeding from yelling at him. And he
4 told me all he did was bring girls in to listen
5 to music with the guys. And I jumped him for
6 that. I said, "You brought girls into our
7 dormitory to listen to music? Who are you
8 kidding, Andre?" And I went off.
9 And then Kareem Richardson was on the
10 phone, he hired Andre McGee. Kareem is one of
11 the finest people I have met. He had no
12 suspicion what Andre was doing. He brought him
13 out to UMKC with him.
14 So, I know it's hard to imagine that
15 we couldn't find any of this stuff out, but we
16 couldn't. Nobody would say anything. And if we
17 could catch it, and now the response is what do
18 we do moving forward?
19 Well, the first thing we do moving
20 forward to make sure it doesn't happen again is
21 we let everybody know what this cost us. You
22 know, two years in a row now we had a chance to
23 win a championship, and we couldn't win it
24 because of what this young man did to our
25 program. You know, a lot of people invested a
Page 325
1 lot of money, people a lot smarter than -- a lot
2 of financial wizards invested with Madoff hedge
3 funds. Brilliant people in the financial area
4 invested with Madoff, and there was really a
5 major red flag that they should have seen. The
6 major red flag was they were getting 22 percent
7 on their money. They should have figured it out
8 right away that that was a red flag. There was
9 none of that with us. There was none of that.
10 They were just interested in making a quick buck
11 because if they were interested in a red flag,
12 they would have caught it because nobody else
13 was getting 22 percent or 18 percent on their
14 money. So, there were no red flags for us to
15 catch.
16 MR. TOMPSETT: This is timely because
17 we are talking about, you know, how did managers
18 not know, how did people not know? I want to
19 talk about Kevin Ware. Chuck talked about him a
20 little bit in his presentation.
21 Ware was the guy that the enforcement
22 staff in their reply said that Ware confirmed it
23 was common knowledge among his teammates that
24 the adult entertainment was occurring in
25 Minardi. Well, Ware didn't confirm anything.
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1 To confirm means to corroborate, and no one else 1 things about reading from the transcripts, and I
2 interviewed, reported or claimed that the strip 2 appreciate it, I know it's an attempt to be
3 shows were common knowledge. Ware is the only 3 helpful, but, you know, I have Kevin Ware's
4 one. So, don't be fooled by the verb 4 transcript in front of me, and it's very -- you
5 "confirmed". He didn't confirm it. 5 picked the stuff in the middle of the page on
6 He also said -- well, he identified 6 Page 36 about how there is not much noise. You
7 only three other student-athletes that he talked 7 skipped the question at the top that says, "Who
8 to about the strip shows: Chane Behanan, Russ 8 knew about it?" And he says, "Chris Smith,
9 Smith and Chris Smith. So at best, Ware 9 Chris Smith knew about it." He says Russ.
10 established it was common knowledge among him 10 Like if you played on the University
11 and three of his teammates. 11 of Louisville men's basketball, you knew,
12 Third, Ware told the investigators 12 regardless of who it was and even if you weren't
13 that he doesn't think the RAs knew. He said, "I 13 participating.
14 don't think the RAs knew honestly." But here's 14 Then at the end, at the end of the
15 the point I really want to make. He was asked 15 same page he says, "Based on your knowledge, do
16 about -- none of us were in the dorm, we don't 16 you think any of the coaches other than McGee
17 know what happened, we weren't there during the 17 knew about it?" And then he talks about Wyking
18 nights. You know, we can try to imagine in our 18 Jones, "Yeah, he knew about it. I remember
19 mind from reading the transcripts and the 19 Wyking saying something about it."
20 descriptions. Here's somebody who was there, 20 "What do you remember about that?"
21 and this is what he described. 21 "He would always say funny comments
22 "Leffler: When these strip parties 22 like it's what you do this weekend."
23 were going on, were they wild? 23 And then he is at practice, he is
24 "Ware: Not really, huh-uh, no. 24 making a joke. "You all practice bad because
25 "Leffler: So if you walked by -- 25 you all had strippers in there all night", or
Page 327 Page 329
1 "Ware: Not too obvious. 1 something like that.
2 "Leffler: When you walked by, if you 2 And it's not a criticism, it's what
3 had been walking down the hallway of the 3 advocates do. But another question, you gave us
4 dormitory -- 4 the helpful -- just let me finish this line and
5 "Ware: You probably would have just 5 then you can respond, Mr. Tompsett. But, you
6 heard some people talking. 6 know, we went through the transcript excerpts
7 "Leffler: Okay. 7 about the questions that were asked by Coach
8 "Ware: Yeah. 8 Pitino and other coaches the morning after, and
9 "Leffler: Would you have been able to 9 we always talk to them about what happened the
10 hear the music? 10 night before.
11 "Ware: Yeah. But you probably 11 You know, Kevin Ware isn't on your
12 wouldn't have thought too much of it because 12 list. Kevin Ware is asked about that on Page
13 it's like a private dorm so people play their 13 24. "When you met with Coach Pitino before you
14 music loud all the time." 14 took off that last day, did Coach Pitino talk to
15 Luke Hancock is another young man. He 15 you about your previous night at Minardi at all?
16 lived in the dorm three of the four years that 16 "No, sir.
17 the strip shows occurred. He told the 17 "Did he ask you any questions about
18 investigators he never saw or heard the strip 18 what you did at Minardi the night before?
19 shows while he lived there, but he also 19 "He asked like how I was around the
20 explained that in his opinion it would be easy 20 guys, did we get along.
21 to keep the activity secret by just doing it 21 "Did he ask you specifically what you
22 behind closed doors. That's the Hancock 22 did with the guys the night before?
23 transcript at Page 21 to 22, and I read from the 23 "No, sir."
24 Ware transcript at Page 36. 24 It's not in the summary.
25 MR. PARKINSON: Just a couple of 25 You have an excerpt from Daniel
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1 Hamilton, and he's quoted from Page 44 to 45
2 that talks about him talking about this with
3 another kid, and he's not very specific about
4 it.
5 But you leave out the part on Page 28
6 through 30 that says this, and bear with me. He
7 is talking about the next morning, "I met all
8 the coaches. I talked to Pitino in his office.
9 "What did you and Coach Pitino talk
10 about in his office?
11 "Basically, how he wanted me and
12 that's pretty much it, like how bad he wanted
13 me, just regular, how regular recruit go,
14 recruit, recruiting trip go.
15 "How long did your meeting last with
16 Coach Pitino?
17 "I would say about an hour.
18 "Did he talk about your visit at all?
19 Did he ever ask about your visit other than him
20 wanting, of course, interested in recruiting
21 you, interested in you attending Louisville?
22 Did he ever talk about that visit at that time
23 at Louisville with you? Like how it was going?
24 "Yes. No, not really, not really."
25 And there is a couple others. I mean
Page 331
1 Anton Gill was selected, you left out a section.
2 Marcus Lee. There is a couple others. And the
3 point is not to critique your presentation, it's
4 just I think it's easy when we have selected
5 excerpts from transcripts to give a false
6 impression of testimony that goes on for a
7 couple of pages.
8 And part of it is for the benefit of
9 my colleagues, that it is difficult when we are
10 put in a position where we are talking about
11 transcript excerpts like this, and if we haven't
12 done all this, if we haven't done all this, and
13 I didn't just pull out the stuff that's sort of
14 inculpatory, I went in to say, okay, one of the
15 key issues is what was talked about the next
16 morning?
17 So, I went through all the athletes'
18 transcripts because those are the ones that are
19 pretty significant. What are the athletes
20 themselves saying the next morning? And most of
21 them said, at least the ones that were
22 implicated in this stuff, most of them said in
23 one way, shape or form we didn't really talk
24 about what happened the night before. I talked
25 to the coach about how he was interested in
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1 recruiting me, and that was basically it.
2 A couple of them said, yeah, what did
3 you do last night? But I am just cautioning not
4 only you but everybody else that there is a
5 fuller body of evidence here that we need to be
6 very careful about because it's not as kind of
7 one sided as we have heard in the last hour.
8 MR. TOMPSETT: First, I am happy to
9 receive constructive critiques on my
10 presentation, and I mean that sincerely. That's
11 your job, and if you think that I am not, you
12 know, presenting the full story or presenting an
13 accurate story, you should tell me that, okay?
14 So I appreciate you pointing this out.
15 I have a few responses. One of the
16 ones that you cited, I think it might have been
17 Ware, the question again that was asked was
18 "Did Coach ask you about your night in Minardi?"
19 Okay? I hope that I made clear my position on
20 that, that's a very narrow question, and I cited
21 to two or three of those where that was the
22 question that was asked. There wasn't any
23 broader question, any more expansive
24 questioning, and I don't think that you can rely
25 on answers to the question "Did Coach ask you
Page 333
1 about your night in Minardi" to determine that
2 this coach failed to monitor.
3 MR. PARKINSON: Just in fairness,
4 that's not what was asked. He didn't ask about
5 the incident at Minardi. The kid is staying at
6 Minardi. And the question is "Did he ask any
7 questions about what you did at Minardi?" And
8 it wasn't a follow-up to the stripper stuff, it
9 was did he ask you -- it was a fair question.
10 And to suggest that either the enforcement staff
11 was too narrow or not trying to get at the
12 truth, I just don't think it's fair.
13 MR. TOMPSETT: I didn't say they
14 weren't trying to get at the truth. I haven't
15 said that. I have been critical of their
16 questioning, okay, and that's my job. I never
17 said they weren't trying to get at the truth.
18 And I do think, and I have thought it
19 through carefully and I looked at the
20 transcripts, I do think the two or three where
21 they said did Coach ask you about what happened
22 last night in Minardi? I think that's a narrow
23 question.
24 MR. PARKINSON: Okay. But that's not
25 Kevin Ware.
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1 MR. PITINO: Let me say something
2 about Kevin Ware. I have to get this point
3 across. I am in a time out at the basketball
4 game this year, and time outs in the NCAA, they
5 seem like they are five minute long, I think
6 they go three to four minutes, much longer than
7 the regular season. I have gone over three
8 times in the huddle what play we are going to
9 run, what play. After the three minutes, we are
10 all straight, what defense we are in, what
11 offense we are in, we got it?
12 I say to one of my players who I could
13 tell is wandering a little bit, you've got what
14 offense we are in? And he's unfortunately my
15 point guard. He said, no, say it again. This
16 was a three-minute span where he couldn't
17 remember what play we were in in an NCAA
18 basketball game.
19 Now we expect Kevin Ware, being
20 interviewed two or three years later about what
21 went on at a breakfast and what I asked him. I
22 would venture to say I couldn't do it if you
23 asked me two years ago what I said at breakfast,
24 I know I say with everybody pretty generally,
25 when I sit the family down when they first come
Page 335
1 in, say I want you to experience everything.
2 But the thing I try and do more than anything
3 else is tie up everybody's time so there is not
4 a lot of free time, so they are always moving to
5 the next thing.
6 So now enforcement staff sees these
7 kids, goes around, and some get immunity and
8 they said did Coach Pitino ask you anything at
9 breakfast the next day? They couldn't remember
10 in a time out what play we are running, but they
11 are going to remember two or three years later
12 what I said at breakfast? That to me is mind
13 boggling.
14 I sat them down and I asked them, as
15 well as what hasn't come up, I would have a team
16 meeting with the team after they left. Anybody
17 on this basketball team believe that we should
18 not have him as a Louisville Cardinal, state
19 your case now. And sometimes they stated their
20 case.
21 One person said he's selfish. I
22 played on an AAU team with him, it's all about
23 him, it's not about the team. And we talked
24 about it. I brought the student host in and
25 said what did you think of him? Does he possess
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1 the type of character we want in our program? I
2 talked to them.
3 The parents are there in the morning.
4 I said did you have fun last night? 99 percent
5 of the time, yeah, we just chilled. We played
6 Xbox, we just hung out. Because I did ask they
7 what they did, and that's the responses I got.
8 We chilled out, we played Xbox. I would say to
9 them who won? Well, he is the king of this and
10 nobody can beat him inX2, and they would say
11 these things back to me.
12 Obviously, they weren't telling me the
13 truth. Nobody was going to tell me the truth,
14 especially in front of their parents.
15 So, I don't believe this is factual,
16 what's in these reports about what these players
17 remembered two or three years later. You know,
18 some of these players have transferred out
19 because they did not play. There is a coach I
20 was transferring out.
21 And some of the players when they
22 transfer out, for instance, this school to me, I
23 have worked in a lot of places, this is one of
24 the most impressive Universities I have ever
25 worked at.
Page 337
1 I said to Tom Jurich, I said, "Tom, I
2 have got a problem, and I know this is not
3 public record." I said, "Kevin Ware has failed
4 two drug tests. If he goes and fails another
5 one, we have got to do something about it." I
6 said, It's not like the days when I was in
7 college where these things are laced with
8 chemicals today, I believe it's addictive."
9 People counter that argument. "I said we have
10 got to do something."
11 He said, "What do you suggest?" I
12 said, "I suggest we send him away. I have
13 spoken to his mom, she's all for it."
14 We spent $60,000 on two separate
15 occasions and Tom said whatever it costs to get
16 that man healthy again, let's do it. He spent
17 60 days. Came back out and went right back to
18 it, and he was expelled from the basketball
19 team.
20 And we still care about Kevin to this
21 day, and we tried everything possible and will
22 continue to do that with other players. And
23 then I asked -- I kept in touch with his mom to
24 see how he was doing, and his mom would tell me
25 how he was doing because I was interested in him
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1 making sure that he didn't go forward that way
2 because I do believe it's a gateway drug and I
3 do believe it leads to bigger things.
4 So, the amount of care this University
5 gives these student-athletes is amazing to me.
6 It didn't take place at so many other places I
7 have worked. And sometime I think these guys do
8 a great job, but I am not sure telling or asking
9 an athlete what I asked him at breakfast three,
10 four years down the road, they can possibly
11 remember because some of them can't remember the
12 next day what did you do on Monday? I have no
13 idea, and it's only Wednesday.
14 So I think it's really unfair. Even
15 on a positive standpoint, if they said something
16 great about it, I think it's unfair because I
17 did ask all of them pointed questions, and I
18 wanted to know their character. And then I sat
19 there for an hour and a half and answered all
20 the family questions of what they may have to
21 get to know them better.
22 So, I did ask pointed questions, but I
23 would never fathom in a million years what was
24 going on, I would never even think about asking
25 that type of question.
Page 339
1 MR. TOMPSETT: The other point that I
2 would ask you to consider in that, just take
3 this coach out of it. Just use your common
4 sense, okay? If you are a coach and you are
5 recruiting a kid to your school and you meet him
6 the next day, absent some compelling reason not
7 to, what are you going to talk about? Of
8 course, you are going to say so what did you do
9 last night? Did you hang out? What did you do?
10 There is no reason he wouldn't have
11 asked those questions. And like he said, and I
12 tried to make this point in my presentation,
13 maybe I didn't make it effectively enough, some
14 of these young men were being asked to recall 15
15 or 20-minute conversations that happened two,
16 three, four years earlier.
17 I would ask you to very carefully, and
18 I am not saying they are lying, I am not saying
19 they are making stuff up, I would ask you just
20 carefully consider how much weight to put on
21 those conversations, how reliable those
22 conversations should be in your determination.
23 Then the last thing I would ask you to
24 consider in, you know, the conversations the
25 next morning, whatever they were, okay?
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1 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Coach
2 Novak.
3 MR. NOVAK: Coach Pitino, if I was the
4 head basketball coach at Louisville, I would
5 want Minardi Hall. I think those things are
6 great, they are great for coaches. But we could
7 sit here, I think, and argue the good and bad of
8 an athletic dorm. As the head coach, I can
9 completely understand it.
10 I would like you to respond to this
11 question, and I think it's the obvious question.
12 I have listened to the testimony all day, and I
13 am not a lawyer so a lot of this stuff goes
14 right over my head. But the thing that I keep
15 coming back to, and I would like you to respond,
16 it's not a yes or a no question, but the thing
17 that keeps coming back to me is this went on for
18 four years. That's the thing that I can't
19 forget.
20 MR. PITINO: I agree with you, Coach.
21 I can't fathom how it didn't get out the one
22 time. But when we say -- we are talking about
23 $4,500 in a four-year span, so approximately
24 $1,100 a year, approximately four or five nights
25 a year.
Page 341
1 Let's take a different dormitory. Do
2 we believe as coaches that four or five nights a
3 year they can go in a room, blast the music and
4 have this same type of show? I would say yes,
5 whether it was Minardi Hall or Betty Johnson,
6 another dormitory. This could go on somewhere
7 else and nobody would detect what goes on in a
8 dormitory.
9 So, it's awful what they did, but it
10 can definitely be hidden without question unless
11 somebody, all these managers, my nephews, all of
12 us can't believe that not one person would put
13 it on social media. These kids today can't go
14 an hour without posting on Instagram, not even
15 an hour today.
16 And my wife sits there at home, and I
17 am not a social media person, I don't Tweet, I
18 don't have any of that, she says look at
19 Peyton's baby, he just had a baby on Instagram.
20 And all night long she keeps telling me what my
21 players are doing on Instagram. And they do it
22 like hourly. And not one time in four years did
23 we get anything on social media. And I will
24 even go a step further, Coach, we had 450,000
25 blue necks in our town, that's what we call the
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 Page 342
1 University of Kentucky, 450,000 of them. What
2 they would do to have this information to hurt
3 the University of Louisville. That would be
4 their heaven for them to hurt us. They never
5 posted anything. They never heard anything like
6 this.
7 So, it mind boggles all of us that
8 none of this ever got out. But it was four or
9 five times a year for a four-year span. It
10 wasn't like it was once a week. And it was
11 hidden and hidden good for the reasons that
12 Andre McGee did this.
13 You know, there was a lady that called
14 Kenny Klein, and I think this is really
15 important, I think it will shed a little light
16 on this, because I can't figure out why Andre
17 McGee would want to ruin his life like he did.
18 She called up Kenny and said she grew up with
19 this lady, Katina Powell, and she knows all
20 about her, why she did it, the whole bit.
21 And Kenny said I am going to give you
22 the number of Chuck Smrt and if you would call
23 him. She called him. I went to vote in the
24 election right across the street at Male High
25 School. This African-American lady grabbed me
Page 343
1 and walked me out. I said, "Ma'am, what's up?"
2 She said, "I need to speak to you. You know
3 about my phone call to Mr. Smrt and your Sports
4 Information Director. I played dumb, I said,
5 "No, ma'am, I do not."
6 I told her exactly what this woman was
7 doing and why she was doing it, and she went
8 through the whole bit of why, that she has a
9 major drug problem. And at the end I said,
10 "Ma'am, I really appreciate you speaking to Mr.
11 Smrt, but I have one question because I can't
12 sleep at night wondering why a young man like
13 Andre McGee, who played for me, who could
14 potentially be like these 31 other coaches who
15 had made it big in the ranks would do such a
16 thing? Why in the world would he risk
17 everything for that?"
18 He wasn't getting us any recruits and
19 if one did come for some ridiculous reason of
20 getting a strip show, Andre McGee would never
21 get any credit, it would be Kevin Keatts, Wyking
22 Jones or whoever was recruiting that young man,
23 he was an officer or GA, and would never get any
24 credit for that person.
25 But I asked her one simple question.
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1 "Can you tell me why he did it?" "Well, Coach,
2 isn't it obvious?" I said, "No, ma'am, it's not
3 obvious." She said, "He came into the hood
4 where we are all from, and he was treated like
5 LeBron because he can no longer play. It was an
6 ego power thing for him to do these things, to
7 bring these girls in and be the big shot, the
8 big ring leader of everything like this."
9 And, you know, I went home and I
10 thought about it, and she was right. That was
11 it with Andre. He was willing to fail
12 everything in his life, throw everything down
13 the gutter to be the big ring leader of
14 something like this.
15 It's tragic, it's a tragic story for
16 him, it's a tragic story for his ending, and
17 it's a tragic story for us that we had to hear
18 about it at this point. So, for four or five
19 times a year they hid it and we couldn't find it
20 on social media, we couldn't find it through our
21 managers, we couldn't find it through my
22 nephews, couldn't find it anywhere, Coach.
23 And it wasn't because I didn't ask the
24 right questions. Because sometimes I would ask
25 too many questions, I want to know too many
Page 345
1 things because character is so important in the
2 way we play, and it takes a lot of character to
3 play for the University of Louisville because of
4 the amount of effort they have to give to play.
5 Not that other schools don't give effort, they
6 give effort everywhere. But our style is really
7 important.
8 So, I will live by that. The woman
9 was right. Andre McGee did it because of power
10 and ego, and that usually brings most people
11 down.
12 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr.
13 Christopher has a question.
14 MR. CHRISTOPHER: I need to go back in
15 time a little bit earlier, about half an hour or
16 so. Scott and then Chuck were almost back to
17 back. We were talking about Minardi, Housing,
18 policies some of that conversation.
19 And I guess just a reaction because,
20 Scott, you were laying out, you know, some of
21 the testimony that I remember related to
22 Housing, that they follow certain policies. And
23 then, Chuck, you were talking about, you know,
24 things around guest visitation, door access,
25 some of that, those policies that were being
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 Page 346 Page 348
1 followed today. 1 So it wasn't an inference of saying
2 But it was earlier today, I think it 2 you weren't doing this before, we need you to
3 was Mr. Banker, you were talking, those same 3 really follow housing policies now. We came
4 things they weren't being followed a few years 4 there to reiterate with the Housing Department
5 ago because that's what I heard this morning, 5 staff alongside us in an education session of
6 but it's fair to say that today those policies, 6 the security, the RAs, the student workers. that
7 yes, we are knocking those out as far as the 7 you need to follow the procedures. We are here
8 overall University policies around housing, but 8 to reinforce that, this gives us an opportunity
9 some of those -- the reason we are here today, 9 to make sure you know that.
10 some of those issues weren't being followed 10 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I want to
11 several years ago? 11 go back to something Mr. Tompsett mentioned way
12 MR. SMRT: I don't know, I am not sure 12 at the beginning of this part of the discussion,
13 if I clearly understood your question. But I 13 and it has to do with red flags. I think you
14 don't -- I am not sure. 14 were making the argument that because the
15 MR. CHRISTOPHER: I think there is a 15 enforcement staff did not give you specific red
16 fair level of confidence that the T's are being 16 flags, that there were none. I don't buy that.
17 crossed and the I's dotted today all around all 17 Mr. Hill has already given you one
18 the housing policies. But it's also fair to say 18 from his student affairs background. I think
19 that if you go back a few years ago, they 19 the enforcement staff is saying you know your
20 weren't all being followed, some of which 20 program, you know where the risks are, it's up
21 because Mr. McGee was trying to circumvent them. 21 to you to figure out where the salient red flags
22 Is that fair? 22 are and to figure out how to monitor them.
23 MR. SMRT: No, I don't think it's fair 23 So, in that context, let me take you
24 because I think what was followed at the time, 24 back to this morning when Mr. Bock put, I think
25 the policies at the time were followed. And the 25 it was primarily Mr. Pitino through a series of
Page 347 Page 349
1 biggest difference between a policy back then 1 questions that I think were probably a bit
2 and a policy now is that now in order to stay 2 uncomfortable because he was pointing out a lot
3 overnight, there has to be the unofficial visit 3 of specificity that could have been around some
4 form, more information, and the community 4 of the character issues that you said you were
5 manager, which is just basically the RA and 5 assessing before you added people to your staff.
6 Minardi has to approve that. That wasn't the 6 He was talking about pornography, he
7 policy in the past. 7 was talking about gambling. And at the end of
8 So, how did McGee circumvent? He had 8 the discussions you said in general, you know,
9 a key. That was a policy for a member of the 9 those are some pretty good ideas. I probably
10 basketball staff living at the dorm then to have 10 should have thought of some of those as a part
11 a key to the armed exit door. That doesn't 11 of this process of onboarding and determining
12 exist anymore. 12 who to bring into the program. Is it possible
13 So, I don't think I would agree that 13 that with a little bit of that kind of
14 the policies in effect then were not being 14 discussion we could all agree that there are any
15 followed. The policies were being followed. 15 number of rather specific red flags that you
16 Now the policies have been enhanced even more is 16 could have identified and that just because the
17 the way I would phrase that. 17 enforcement staff wasn't going to do that for
18 MR. CHRISTOPHER: Mr. Banker, is that 18 you doesn't mean that they didn't exist?
19 correct? 19 MR. TOMPSETT: I will take that and
20 MR. BANKER: My statements earlier 20 then, Coach, if you want to jump in.
21 were to illustrate that we were reinforcing with 21 First, as to Mr. Hill, you know, I
22 everyone who worked at Minardi Hall and beyond 22 think what he said about a red flag, and by all
23 that, we have educated others about housing 23 means correct me if I misunderstood, I think
24 policies, need to win today, and that you need 24 that that was when he understood or had the
25 to follow them as you have before. 25 impression that there was no Housing Department
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1 oversight of the dorm, that that would be a huge 1 MR. TOMPSETT: No. Let me clear that
2 red flag. I think we cleared that point up. 2 up because apparently it's not clear. He gave
3 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I think he 3 an example of how, an occasion where there was
4 was saying that in his mind the people involved 4 some misconduct in the dorm and it was brought
5 in Minardi were confused about who was in 5 to his attention. I don't think he said, and I
6 charge. 6 know he didn't mean to create the impression,
7 MR. HILL: Yes, that was the question. 7 that that was the chain of command or that was
8 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: That was 8 the structure for supervising the dorm.
9 his red flag. 9 The point is, is that when there was
10 MR. HILL: Yes. 10 misconduct in the dorm involving one of his
11 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Was the 11 young men, he wanted to be told about it because
12 confusion. 12 he is the head men's basketball coach. That was
13 MR. TOMPSETT: I hope we cleared that 13 separate and apart from the standard procedure
14 up. I don't think there was any confusion about 14 in the dorm for the RA to write up an incident
15 who was in charge. That's what I tried to 15 report, report it to Housing, Dean of Students
16 explain. Joe McMillan was the RA, he was above 16 and so on.
17 every resident in the dorm. And if there was a 17 So, if there is this misperception
18 problem, and I gave a specific example of that, 18 that Coach Pitino was running the dorm and
19 they would call McMillan. I gave a specific 19 everybody reported stuff to Coach Pitino, that's
20 example where that happened. 20 absolutely false and is not supported by the
21 Now, as to that being a red flag, I 21 record.
22 mean I think we cleared that up. I think that 22 MR. HILL: Coach, did you not say that
23 there was a clear understanding about who was in 23 there was something wrong in equipment or
24 charge. 24 something and they called you?
25 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I think 25 MR. PITINO: The hover board incident
Page 351 Page 353
1 it's from the perception of the students that 1 with the players?
2 Mr. Hill was asking the question, so I am not 2 MR. HILL: I am not talking about the
3 sure it's fully cleared up. 3 hover board incident right now.
4 MR. SMRT: I don't think we have any 4 MR. PITINO: I was giving an example
5 information from the students that there was 5 that if there was a broken chair, I would want
6 confusion. Mr Hill can question I wonder if the 6 to know to fix it. But nobody was reporting
7 students were confused, we don't know. But 7 that. I was just saying that's how interested I
8 because there is a question doesn't mean that 8 am in that dormitory.
9 the students were confused. McMillan was the 9 MR. TOMPSETT: This is another example
10 RA, he had been there for three years, four 10 of unreliable testimony. Somebody said, I
11 years. I mean, I guess I would say I don't 11 forget who it was, it was in Mr. Leffler's
12 think there was any confusion McMillan was the 12 presentation, about, you know, Coach was never
13 RA. But I don't believe I have that factual 13 in the dorm. A kid might have said that, but if
14 information nor does Mr. Hill that a student in 14 you look at the clear weight of the evidence,
15 Minardi was confused on who to go to if there 15 every other credible and reliable witness, he
16 was an issue. 16 was over there usually once or twice a week
17 There was an RA. Who else would you 17 during basketball season.
18 go to? Why would a student go to a basketball 18 And when Coach said if something is
19 staff member if he had an issue with a toilet in 19 broken, he was trying to give an example of this
20 a dorm? 20 is how much I cared about that dorm.
21 MR. HILL: I cut you off. I apologize. 21 MR. PITINO: I am sorry for misleading
22 MR. SMRT: Go ahead. 22 you on that. I was trying to point out how much
23 MR. HILL: Well, what confuses me, 23 I care about the dormitory.
24 though, is Coach clearly said there was an issue 24 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay, Ms.
25 with equipment and they called Coach. 25 Strohm.
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1 MR. JURICH: Can I --
2 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: You two
3 duke it out over there. Who is going first?
4 MR. JURICH: Mr. Hill, I know exactly
5 where you are coming from and I know exactly
6 what Coach is saying. That dorm is dear to his
7 heart, okay? We have heard all the stories.
8 It's well documented many years prior to this.
9 When we all sat down in year 2000 when
10 Coach was hired to build this dorm, at the time
11 there was no money to build it. Coach said I
12 will take full responsibility for whatever this
13 building costs to make sure my brother-in-law
14 has it in his name. He raised all the money
15 himself. It was mostly from his friends in New
16 York that were friends with Billy, but he raised
17 every dime of it.
18 So, for him to say he goes in there
19 and checks things, he checks the carpet, he
20 checks the lights, he checks broken chairs. And
21 you know what, when he comes back and he
22 complains to me we need this, this and this, I
23 say, Coach, how are you going to pay for it?
24 Many times he does.
25 Many times he'll go out and raise
Page 355
1 money to get the carpeting done, to get new
2 windows, to get new draperies, to get new
3 furniture. He's done all those things. It's
4 well documented on our campus. I think he's got
5 a great love for that dorm much more than I have
6 a love for any dorm I lived in because mine was
7 -- you want to talk about an animal house, you
8 should have gone to what I went through in
9 Northern Arizona. There wasn't anything that
10 was nice.
11 But he takes great pride in this. And
12 I have sat here and listened all day to all this
13 testimony going back and forth. Again, I respect
14 the hell out of that group across the lane from
15 me. And certainly I do this one.
16 I am a strong proponent of the NCAA,
17 always will be till the day I die. But to think
18 that this man knew anything about this or any of
19 us, and I certainly think I am very perceptive,
20 I grew up in L.A., I know how things work, you
21 know. Coach, nobody has more respect for you.
22 Greg, you live in my world. To think this never
23 hit social media is beyond belief to me.
24 We even had a service -- and tell me,
25 John, what is the name of the damn thing? We
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1 paid about 15 grand a month for it, it was Due
2 Diligence, and it picked up code words off of
3 kids' text messages, instant messaging, all
4 those things that are in that world at that
5 time. We have had them stop it, we had to
6 discontinue it because -- was it privacy, John,
7 or what?
8 MR. CARNS: Yes, there were some
9 privacy questions with having student-athletes
10 provided passwords and things.
11 MR. JURICH: Not one time did anything
12 ever show up about Minardi Hall. All these
13 things and all these people in our town, like
14 Coach said, half our town is blue, blue meaning
15 Kentucky, University of Kentucky, has never
16 shown up. That's our greatest rival. Nothing
17 has ever been spotted.
18 Nobody for one moment would ever think
19 that Andre McGee would disarm a side door and be
20 having these things go on. The girls
21 themselves, wouldn't you think they would be
22 local stars because that's why we spend so much
23 money every year on security, to keep the damn
24 people out.
25 Wouldn't you think the girls
Page 357
1 themselves would have gone on social media,
2 especially if they are trying to conduct a
3 business, wouldn't that be great for their
4 profile?
5 Nothing. Nothing ever existed. We
6 had everybody working on this. You know, the
7 thing, you all want to call it all in the club
8 and all this, all in the family, it's fricking
9 San Quentin in there, if you want to ask those
10 kids the truth, and he's the warden.
11 You know, I have got to have him back
12 off. I struggle with it as an Athletic
13 Director, and I say this as respectfully as I
14 can and, Greg, I hope you will understand this
15 because you sit in my chair with me. We always
16 talk about handling sports equally. What if I
17 had one of my women's coach ask that recruit,
18 what did you do last night? I don't think that
19 would go over very well. And I think you are
20 thinking about more explicit things about what
21 you did last night, and I heard some of the
22 comments.
23 That wouldn't fit one bit. That
24 wouldn't work in our society. My women's
25 basketball coach, Jeff Walsh, if he went to one
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 Page 358
1 of his recruits, let's take Myisha Hines out,
2 said, Myisha, what did you do last night? Were
3 you out with some men, did you guys do this or
4 there is strippers? I couldn't even fathom
5 having a coach do it. I will tell you what, I
6 would be offended if I did have a coach that
7 would ask that question.
8 I would be offended if I had a coach
9 ask a recruit about pornography. I think it
10 would be the greatest turn off.
11 So, as I hear everybody's comments,
12 but I think we have got to reel back in some
13 common sense to this thing in reality. Nobody
14 wanted this to happen. This was a detriment to
15 our program, not because of the problems we are
16 going through now, but this didn't help us with
17 one recruit. There is not one recruit that's
18 testified to you, and you talked to hundreds of
19 people that said this is why we came to the
20 University of Louisville because that was such a
21 great strip show.
22 I don't think that ever happened, and
23 I really don't believe it would ever happen to
24 this day. That's something I couldn't live
25 with. I can't look in the mirror, and that's
Page 359
1 what I hit all my staff with every single day
2 for the last 31 1/2 years, is you look in the
3 mirror first to get better.
4 I know he does it, I know all my
5 coaches do it, and we are deeply, deeply
6 embarrassed for this. We have not made any
7 excuses for it. It just shocks me, and I think
8 we have all got different definitions right now,
9 red flags that I think, but it shocks me that
10 all the people who were interviewed in this
11 thing, nobody said that Coach knew anything
12 about it, and he didn't.
13 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Ms.
14 Strohm.
15 MS. STROHM: I just wanted to make a
16 couple of comments. I serve on the University's
17 Compliance Oversight Committee so that is about
18 compliance throughout the University, far more
19 than athletics. One of the things that we have
20 found over the years is that having multiple
21 points of entry for someone who has a complaint
22 is actually a strength and not a detriment. So
23 it doesn't confuse people, it just allows each
24 person to connect with someone on campus with
25 whom they are comfortable connecting.
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1 So, it may be another student, in some
2 cases it may be a coach, in some cases it may be
3 an administrator. But we think multiple points
4 of entry is a good strategy and it's something
5 that we try to put in place across campus in
6 lots of different perspectives.
7 The other comment I wanted to offer
8 while I have the microphone is that we had a
9 lengthy conversation before lunch about
10 questions that can be asked to determine
11 character of people. And I thought it just
12 might be helpful as a point of reference to know
13 how we do the search for RAs across campus, so
14 over the lunch hour I contacted our Dean of
15 Students and our Director of Housing to say what
16 is the process that we use for selecting RAs for
17 all of our dorms on campus and here's the
18 process.
19 Just as one data point, one point of
20 reference, there are minimums. You have to have
21 a certain minimum GPA and you cannot have any
22 student conduct violations on your record.
23 Then there is a couple of interviews,
24 and those interviews are situational based. Why
25 do you want to do this? What's your experience
Page 361
1 in a group living setting? How do you work with
2 diverse population? How do you handle conflict?
3 How do you enforce policies? But
4 there aren't questions about do you have
5 pornography or what do your friends say about
6 your proclivity to go to strip shows? Those are
7 not questions that are asked for any of our RAs
8 on campus.
9 The other thing that I found
10 interesting is that as of this year they had
11 ceased to even ask for references because they
12 found that they references weren't helpful to
13 them. They typically came from, of course,
14 glowing people, and so the process that I had
15 outlined is the one that's used. They don't
16 check social media, and they have pretty good
17 luck, hire about 40 RAs a year. I asked what
18 happened if an RA doesn't perform well, of
19 course, they are removed.
20 The kind of situation that comes up
21 the most frequently, and it's not frequent, is
22 an RA who declines to, for example, call the
23 Dean of Students or call the Police Department
24 if they are detecting some kind of issue like a
25 potential drug situation in the dorm.
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1 So, those are the kinds of situations 1 position. We are here today as long as we want
2 where they tend to remove RAs is because they 2 us. We would rather finish today. You are
3 haven't followed through on their obligation to 3 right, we have to have a discussion about
4 report. So, I hope that information is helpful 4 aggravating and mitigating, we also want to talk
5 to you. 5 about penalties. So, I do think that
6 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: It does. 6 conversation is 20 minutes, and then we would
7 MS. STROHM: I will take any questions. 7 like to caucus at some point about closing. We
8 MR. SMRT: I am sorry. Our discussions 8 can do that if you break now or whenever you
9 about our frustrations that it wasn't picked up. 9 wish to break.
10 I understand the question, but we are in 10 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I was
11 Allegation 4, which is did the enforcement staff 11 thinking of no break, quite frankly, unless I am
12 have the responsibility to prove that Coach did 12 seeing some desperate people.
13 not monitor McGee, not that how could you have 13 MR. SMRT: I believe that our
14 not picked this up in four years? 14 discussion on penalty and aggravating and
15 I understand that. I mean, we are 15 mitigating will go 20 minutes or so, and then--
16 frustrated by that, but I don't want it to 16 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Let's
17 somehow confuse the discussion on 4 is that the 17 proceed, and if somebody really believes that
18 institution should have known of this. That's 18 it's time to get up and take a break -- we say
19 not the allegation. It's not even that Coach 19 ten minutes and it turns out being 15 plus
20 should have known of this. It's that he failed 20 because people scatter and they get on their
21 to monitor. 21 phones, so I am kind of reluctant to let people
22 And it feels like our conversation is 22 go, but I will if we have to.
23 drifting to, you know, why didn't someone pick 23 MR. GINSBERG: I am sorry, I have an
24 this up? That's not the issue on 4. I still 24 apology. I have to get on the phone just to
25 have not heard from the enforcement staff on 25 change my flight to tomorrow, I was supposed to
Page 363 Page 365
1 what didn't he ask. Is it the standard now, if 1 fly out tonight, which is fine, I have no
2 you make a finding on 4, every Compliance 2 problem with that, but I do need to step out of
3 Coordinator that reads your finding is going to 3 the room.
4 tell the head coach you have to ask about sexual 4 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
5 activities. It really is that simple. 5 That's all right. And would you to please give
6 Because your decisions are read and 6 the document that was passed out, the interview
7 they are imposed on Compliance folks, and if you 7 excerpts to Ms. DeWees or Ms. Gross there at the
8 make the decision that he didn't ask pointed 8 end?
9 questions, then there will be a check list now 9 MR. GINSBERG: I will be glad to.
10 of every head coach, you have to ask these 10 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: All right.
11 questions of your prospects the next day. 11 So, two questions and then we will move into
12 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Well, I 12 that set of closing topics. And we will begin
13 would just make the point that we always put in 13 with Mr. Bock.
14 our report that each case stands on its own 14 MR. DUNCAN: Actually, Dr. Cartwright,
15 merits. I understand what you are saying. Some 15 Jon Duncan here. If I could respond to something
16 of those things are inevitable. But that's not 16 Mr. Smrt said just briefly because he perhaps
17 how we make decisions. 17 inadvertently fundamentally misstated the burden
18 Now, we have two more people who have 18 here and suggested that the enforcement staff
19 questions that they want to raise, and we need 19 has an affirmative obligation to prove that Mr.
20 to talk about aggravators and mitigators and we 20 Pitino failed to monitor, and then detail how
21 need closing comments. My sense is that people 21 that is. That's not how Bylaw 11.1.1.1
22 would like to stay and complete this rather than 22 operates.
23 coming back in the morning. Am I right about 23 The presumption attached to the
24 that. 24 allegation is that the burden shifted to Mr.
25 MR. SMRT: That's the institution's 25 Pitino to rebut it, and he didn't. So, the
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1 burden actually rests with Coach to make the
2 showing.
3 We spent a lot of time talking about
4 social media and questions to RAs and GAs and
5 prospects, and that's fine. What we didn't hear
6 during the investigation and what we haven't
7 heard today is about questions posed to the one
8 who was charged with monitoring, and that is Mr.
9 McGee, and we haven't heard about those because
10 there weren't.
11 The argument I think is that those
12 questions weren't asked, or it's okay that they
13 weren't asked, because he just would have lied.
14 Maybe, maybe not. We don't know because he
15 wasn't asked. What we do know is that he
16 thought he was getting away with this behavior
17 for a period of four years and apparently
18 believed that he wouldn't be asked.
19 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
20 MR. TOMPSETT: Can I respond to those
21 two points? Chuck, you can respond, too.
22 I disagree with the point of procedure
23 that Jon has just stated. It's their position,
24 it's their position that Coach Pitino didn't
25 rebut the burden, and that can be their
Page 367
1 position. It's our position that he did. It's
2 ultimately up to you. And it's not as though
3 the enforcement staff has no burden here.
4 I mean, in a rebuttal of presumption
5 case, the burden shifts. The lawyers know how
6 that works. And certainly it would be
7 inappropriate. And I do take issue, Dr.
8 Cartwright, with one of your points that you
9 made about, well, it really isn't up to us to
10 figure out the red flags. I don't think that's
11 how it works, that's not the way any other
12 failure to monitor case that this Committee has
13 adjudicated has worked,
14 If that's where the Committee is
15 drifting to and kind of the tone and tenor of
16 this conversation, because nobody has really
17 been able to point to anything specific or
18 concrete, what this guy should have done that
19 would have made a difference, and would have
20 been detected.
21 In the law that's called strict
22 liability. It went on for four years. So, you
23 know, that's all we need, that's strict
24 liability. That's not my understanding of how
25 the membership wants the head coach control
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1 legislation to work.
2 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: And that's
3 certainly something we will have to sort out.
4 MR. TOMPSETT: I appreciate that.
5 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: We
6 understand the disagreement.
7 MR. TOMPSETT: I take issue with Mr.
8 Duncan's -- another point, just while I have the
9 mic and maybe I won't talk for quite a while.
10 But back to Wyking Jones, just give me
11 a minute, Mr. Parkinson, because I do take it
12 very seriously when someone suggests that I
13 tried to, you know, inadvertently or
14 deliberately mislead the Committee in my
15 presentation. That certainly was not my intent,
16 okay?
17 The point that I would make, you know,
18 on these other young men, you now, I don't think
19 that their testimony is very reliable. I don't
20 think that you should give it the appropriate
21 weight. Now, Wyking Jones, and I would be
22 remiss, I wouldn't be doing my job for my client
23 if I didn't bring this up. They investigated
24 it, they asked, they did a good job of
25 investigating it, and they asked other student-
Page 369
1 athletes, you know, did the coaches know.
2 He is the only one who said it, and he
3 said it was said in a joking manner, so I don't
4 think enforcement staff even thinks that the
5 young man was credible or reliable in his
6 speculation that Coach Jones knew what was going
7 on. Thank you. I appreciate that.
8 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay, Mr.
9 Bock or Mr. Parkinson.
10 MR. PARKINSON: Just one quick
11 clarifying point since you raised it, Mr.
12 Tompsett. I wasn't suggesting you were acting
13 in bad faith or trying to mislead the Committee.
14 What I was simply pointing out or what I
15 intended to point out was when we are moving as
16 quickly through material this deep, that it's
17 easy to reach a conclusion based on a transcript
18 excerpt that is not well developed until we take
19 the time to sit down and read it all.
20 That's the only point I was making,
21 and I also think I and the rest of the Committee
22 members have enough experience -- there is a lot
23 of gray hair up here and some lack of hair--
24 when we ask questions we are not taking the side
25 of a student-athlete or some other witness, we
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1 are simply probing. We understand that to ask 1 character of an individual and their interests
2 anybody what they did over breakfast two years 2 is that sort of time when they let their hair
3 ago, who on earth is going to remember that? 3 down and they are out being kids and they are
4 But it goes to larger issues. It's 4 making decisions about how they want to spend
5 not a choosing sides exercise. 5 their free time.
6 MR. TOMPSETT: And I didn't mean to 6 And so what I wonder is why hasn't
7 suggest that you were choosing sides and you did 7 there been a greater effort at obtaining and
8 frame your constructive criticism very 8 systematizing the information that could be
9 appropriately and professionally and I didn't 9 obtained from that time period after the recruit
10 take it personally. And by all means, you know, 10 gets dropped off until you see them the next
11 anybody ever thinks I am not doing my job or 11 morning when you expect that they will go out
12 misleading somebody, you know, tell me. 12 and do something, something that they would
13 Just a point of process, and I don't 13 enjoy, why isn't that a part of the evaluation
14 envy your jobs at all. I know that you-all are 14 process?
15 volunteers. I get paid to do this, okay? And I 15 MR. PITINO: It is part of it,
16 am fortunate to have a client in this case that 16 certainly.
17 I haven't had to restrict my time like I do in a 17 MR. BOCK: And then why aren't there
18 lot of cases. 18 records about that part of the process?
19 But reviewing this record is 19 MR. PITINO: I will ask the student
20 laborious, time consuming, especially when you 20 host as well as the team what they did, and
21 have to do it on a computer, and in this 21 there are often times they really did nothing,
22 administrative process that we are in, because I 22 very little. Remember, this is a 48-hour period
23 try cases, too, and it's different when you try 23 that we have and they are probably sleeping 25,
24 a case and you get to call a witness and so on. 24 30 percent of the time. It's a very short
25 In this, you know, we are limited to a day and 25 window.
Page 371 Page 373
1 you are trying to pick and choose, so part of it 1 We gather more of our information from
2 is the process and that's no one's fault. I 2 guidance counselors, teachers, people associated
3 have done my best to try to advocate for my 3 with them about what type of character they are
4 client and present his position and also provide 4 than that short window of 36, 48 hours. So they
5 to you what I believe is an accurate record of 5 go out, and some let their hair down, some
6 the credible and reliable information that you 6 don't. Some just stay in and play video games
7 should be looking at to make your decision. 7 because the players can't go out because they
8 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Bock. 8 have early practice the next morning. That
9 MR. BOCK: Thank you. First of all, I 9 often happens, especially during the season.
10 want to thank both sides, the enforcement staff 10 So, we try to gather up as much as we
11 and University of Louisville, for their 11 can, and often times players will come to us and
12 responses to my questions earlier. And in 12 say he's not our type of guy, Coach, not our
13 particular, Coach Pitino, most of my questions 13 type of guy. I will try to be more specific.
14 were directed at you and hearing your candid 14 He'll say you are just going to have to trust me
15 responses is very helpful. 15 on that one, Coach.
16 I will be very honest that I still 16 MR. BOCK: And given that the problems
17 have questions, and so I am not going to take a 17 in this case uniformly took place during those
18 lot of time here, but I have about two or three, 18 entertainment hours, the late hours in the
19 four, maybe, that I would like to ask you. 19 evening, why hasn't there been a change in terms
20 The first is taking your point about 20 of attempting to get more information about the
21 the importance of character for your athletes 21 specific activities in which recruits engage?
22 that play for you. What leaps out to me is that 22 MR. PITINO: You mean going forward
23 in the recruiting process, it seems to me that 23 after this incident?
24 one of the best vehicles for getting 24 MR. BOCK: Yes, sir.
25 information, candid information about the 25 MR. PITINO: We actually, this year
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1 especially, we sort of put a halt on visitation,
2 we put a halt on -- I just told the guys you've
3 got to give me a year to think about all of
4 this, and I have had major complaints this year
5 about them not going out and being regular
6 students.
7 First, I had to get the truth, and I
8 had to make sure I had the truth in all cases.
9 You've got the tough job now after a year of
10 what I would like to do moving forward. In
11 terms of this, I think I have curtailed it so
12 much without -- I don't this underage drinking,
13 I don't want them going out so much, I want them
14 contained.
15 I think I have gone a little too
16 overboard with that because I couldn't possibly
17 find out this year, I had to find out through
18 other means back at the high school and people
19 associated with them about character. I
20 couldn't find it out on the visit, because I
21 didn't want our players even taking people out
22 basically because we couldn't afford anything to
23 happen at all.
24 Now, that I have gone through this
25 year, a pointed question, like I could never ask
Page 375
1 the type of questions nor would I ever guess
2 that Andre McGee could even be involved with
3 this.
4 You know, his best friend is our
5 academic advisor has done an incredible job with
6 us, just an absolutely incredible job
7 academically. And I grilled him and said,
8 Anthony, come on, man, he had to give you
9 something, some indication that he brought a
10 girl on campus, he brought a girl in the dorm.
11 He said never, Coach. I said, come on, Anthony,
12 it's impossible, impossible.
13 And I said, you know, have you heard
14 from him?. And he said, "Only one time, Coach."
15 And I said, "Was he apologetic, is he down in
16 the dumps?" I said that he should write Tom
17 George a letter. Did he say anything like that?
18 He said, no, Coach, he just can't believe that
19 that girl did him wrong like that. And that was
20 the last I heard of it.
21 But even Anthony Wright, who went out
22 with him, was his best friend, never had an
23 inkling of any of this. So, going forward, I
24 think we have got a very strong handle on the
25 dormitory situation. I don't want to be in the
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1 dorm business at all. I want to let the RA do
2 his job. Obviously, if discipline has to come
3 down, the young men who rode the hover boards
4 and had alcohol, they were written up like every
5 student is in every dormitory, but they got a
6 little extra punishment from me for drinking
7 alcohol during the season. And one of them was
8 under 21.
9 MR. BOCK: So, in terms of maybe an
10 acceptable pointed question, let me just ask if
11 you ever asked any of your student-athletes is
12 Andre McGee a good example of moral and ethical
13 behavior to you? Did you ever ask that
14 question?
15 MR. PITINO: At the end of the year, I
16 get every athlete together and I go each and
17 every staff member, one-by-one, and then I also
18 use myself at the end. I say, what would you
19 like different about me? Where do you think I
20 make my mistakes as a person and as a coach?
21 And I go through each staff member,
22 tell me what you think of Andre McGee. Tell me
23 what you think of Kevin Keatts. What do you
24 like about them, what don't you like about them?
25 What would you change in them?
Page 377
1 With each person, I get feedback about
2 all our staff members. Then I tell our staff
3 members that. I also give our staff members a
4 critique of my own observations about them, from
5 their passion, their enthusiasm, their due
6 diligence about covering everything.
7 So, I am a pretty good listener when
8 it comes to that, and I want to know that.
9 Nobody ever surmised that Andre McGee really was
10 this type of person at all. It didn't seem like
11 any of these things interest him. And not until
12 that lady I met in voting did I get any
13 indication of any rational explanation of why he
14 did it.
15 MR. BOCK: Are those questions one-
16 on-one, just you and the student-athletes?
17 MR. PITINO: Yes.
18 MR. BOCK: Thank you.
19 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay. So,
20 Mr. Parkinson has a question and then I am
21 hearing from my colleagues that all of you can
22 get up and slip out but we can't. So, we do
23 need to take a break. After this question we
24 will take a break. For anybody who is exiting,
25 there are cameras rolling out there just so you
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1 are aware. So, Larry, it's you before the
2 break.
3 MR. PARKINSON: I will try to be
4 quick. I want to move back to what we are here
5 this afternoon about, and it relates to what Mr
6 Smrt said a few minutes ago, and that is this is
7 about Andre McGee, and it's about an alleged
8 failure to monitor Andre McGee.
9 And after a very long day and reading
10 countless pages of stuff, for the life of me I
11 still don't know what his role was, where he was
12 supposed to live and who monitored him. And let
13 me just tee up a couple of things and then I
14 will just stop there and ask for a couple of
15 comments. Obviously, part of it will be from
16 the coach.
17 I am looking at the coach's
18 transcript, and I was struck by a couple of
19 things. One, this is on Page 36 of the
20 transcript of your testimony of April 26th, last
21 year, we are asking specifically about McGee.
22 "When was he living in Minardi?"
23 And your answer was, "I believe it was
24 2010 to 2011.
25 "Did he ever live in Minardi when he
Page 379
1 was Director of Basketball Operations?"
2 Your answer was, "He may have been for
3 a six-month period. I would have to check on
4 that."
5 On the next page, sort of in the
6 middle of the page, "Did Andre ever not live in
7 Minardi when he worked here?
8 "Maybe the last year and a half to two
9 years. I am not sure if he lived there as an
10 OPS guy. I would have to check on that.
11 "Do you recall there ever being an
12 instance where Andre had moved out of Minardi
13 but then he was required to return?
14 "I don't recall it. Maybe it was, I
15 am not sure."
16 And then I jump to Page 40, "Was there
17 anyone who specifically monitored Andre's
18 activities with the prospects while they were on
19 campus?"
20 "Answer: The assistant coaches did."
21 No further specificity in part
22 because, unfortunately, they didn't ask the
23 follow-up questions about, well, which assistant
24 coaches and what was their role and all that.
25 "Did you have any role in that
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1 monitoring?"
2 And your answer was this, "Just in
3 terms of any feedback that Andre had with
4 recruits.
5 "Anything that -- any discussions that
6 he had with the, you know, was it North
7 Carolina, was it Duke, was it us, where do you
8 think he was leaning? Where do you think the
9 young man's leaning?"
10 And that was the extent of the
11 questioning about who monitors Andre. And it
12 struck me that there is other stuff in the
13 record that says he lived in Minardi three years
14 out of the four. Other people say he lived
15 there all four years, even though he mostly
16 stayed with girls outside the building, but he
17 had a room there.
18 And the recruits, half of the recruits
19 that were involved in these activities were
20 using his room throughout this period for the
21 strip shows and a lot of them were having sex in
22 his room.
23 And for the life of me I am having
24 trouble figuring out how we could be
25 institutionally and as a head coach monitoring
Page 381
1 Andre when we can't even, after all of this, pin
2 down when he was supposed to be in Minardi, what
3 his role was to be when he was there, whether he
4 left and then came back again. If he wasn't
5 supposed to be living there, why were the kids
6 using his room to sleep in and have sex in and
7 have stripper parties?
8 And this goes to the heart, I think,
9 of Allegation 4, and I thought I would have more
10 certainty at the end of the day and here I am,
11 and I am just puzzled by that.
12 MR. PITINO: Well, when he was
13 operations guy, he lived in an apartment not too
14 far away, just off campus, and he did not have a
15 room in Minardi Hall when he had the apartment.
16 He lived in the dormitory when he was a program
17 assistant.
18 MR. SMRT: There is some confusion--
19 you are picking up in the transcripts
20 information that we picked up during the
21 investigation. Supposed someone, and I don't
22 remember who it was, reported that they thought
23 he moved out for a while. But then because
24 there were some behavior issues in the dorm not
25 related to the sexual activities, that he moved
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1 back in.
2 So, that is why you are picking that
3 up. Whether that had to do -- Coach is saying
4 he lived out. We have him in Minardi the last
5 year that he had one of those rooms.
6 Remember, on official visits, we
7 believe that prospect more than likely stayed in
8 one of the two one-person suites. But what you
9 are picking up is someone suggested he moved out
10 for a while and then moved back in. I can't
11 tell you. We know he had a room in Minardi at
12 least until his last year. The belief was he
13 had a room his third year in Minardi.
14 MR. PARKINSON: So, he did have a room
15 either two or three of the four years?
16 MR. SMRT: Yes. We have the rooming
17 list from Housing, and it has his name on it
18 for the first, second and fourth year. The
19 third year it doesn't have it, it has that room
20 as open, and we wondered whether he maybe didn't
21 start out there but moved back in. I can't tell
22 you. I just don't know. But that's where you
23 are picking that up.
24 MR. PARKINSON: You guys had a chart,
25 or somebody put a chart in the record in one of
Page 383
1 the filings that had the four years and showed
2 that he had a room, as you said, the first two
3 years and then not the third year and then he's
4 back the fourth year. That was yours?
5 MR. SMRT: According to this rooming
6 list that we got from Housing.
7 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: So, Mr.
8 Pitino, to follow up on Mr. Parkinson's
9 question, the assistant coaches were responsible
10 for monitoring McGee. Who was responsible for
11 evaluating, assessing, monitoring the assistant
12 coaches? Were there layers between you and
13 them, or was there a direct engagement by you
14 with them in terms of overseeing their
15 performance in your program?
16 MR. PITINO: I monitored everyone,
17 Andre as well as the assistant coaches.
18 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay,
19 that's helpful. Thank you.
20 We will now take a maximum ten-minute
21 break, and may I remind everyone about
22 confidentiality in the sense that any small
23 side-bar conversations in the hall are risky
24 given that the press is hovering. So please
25 remember and be very careful.
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1 (RECESS.)
2 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: I think we
3 have the folks back in the room that need to be
4 here. They are in their seats or they are on
5 their way.
6 We have now finished with discussion
7 of Allegation 4, and we are going to move to a
8 discussion of aggravators, mitigators and the
9 self-imposed penalties.
10 The enforcement staff has identified
11 four aggravating and two mitigating factors for
12 the institution. I was going to ask President
13 Postel, I don't know if he's assigned it to
14 anyone else or if, Mr. Smrt, you are going to
15 respond on behalf of the institution. Please
16 tell us your position on these factors and any
17 other factors you wish the Panel to consider.
18 MR. SMRT: Yes, ma'am. As you said,
19 the enforcement staff has put forth four. We
20 agree with two of these factors, multiple Level
21 I violations, which we think are 1 and 2, and
22 then the willful, intentional conduct, which
23 would be by McGee. So, yes, we agree with those
24 two. We dispute two, and the first one is
25 history and the second one is person of
Page 385
1 authority.
2 Here's why we dispute history. The
3 last case was 1988, 19 years ago. In the recent
4 UCLA case in September of 2016, the last case
5 was 18 years so one less than ours, and the
6 Committee said it should not be relevant due to
7 that many number of years. In the Virginia case
8 it was 20 years had elapsed, and there were
9 different scope and different severity, and you
10 did not find that.
11 In the Mississippi case, the Committee
12 put forth three factors to determine that it
13 said it would use in the future to look at the
14 history aggravating factor. Now, the number of
15 overall cases, the institution has had three
16 cases since 1957 or four in the last 60 years.
17 So, four in the last 60 years, three since 1957,
18 and one in the last 19 years. We think that's
19 significant.
20 The length of time, I have alluded to
21 that, is 19 years. And then the third factor
22 you cited in Mississippi State case was
23 similarity of violations. In the 1998 case,
24 that was primarily a volleyball case and extra
25 benefits. This obviously is a men's basketball
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1 and a recruiting. So, that's the reason why we
2 don't believe history is relevant here.
3 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay,
4 thank you for that.
5 MR. SMRT: Now, the second one is
6 person of authority We don't believe McGee was
7 a person of authority. We don't need to go into
8 now who McGee was after sitting here for nine
9 hours today. But there is less clarity from the
10 Committee about what you look at in these
11 decisions than there is in history.
12 But we cite the recent UCLA case in
13 which the assistant head coach was not
14 determined to be a person of authority. We
15 cited the Louisiana Lafayette case in which the
16 assistant coach was not listed as a person of
17 authority. And in your report you said, in
18 fact, he made efforts to conceal his involvement
19 in a violation.
20 Is there a difference between a
21 coaching staff member and a DOBO? Yes, we
22 believe there is. There is a certain pecking
23 order, and because of that we don't believe
24 McGee is a person of authority who condoned the
25 violations.
Page 387
1 So, I am ready to go to mitigating.
2 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Yes,
3 please.
4 MR. SMRT: Okay. So, mitigating, the
5 staff said there were two, and we gladly agree
6 with their two mitigating factors that they put
7 forth, which was prompt acknowledgement of the
8 violation and established history of self-
9 reporting.
10 We also believe exemplary cooperation
11 is a mitigating factor in this case. We
12 detailed in our response numerous reasons why we
13 believe that, and I want to give an example of a
14 couple of these. But the first one I would re-
15 emphasize is Mr. Parkinson when he said there
16 has been several former athletes that have come
17 forth and reported incriminating information to
18 the institution. It's because they were
19 encouraged to come forth.
20 We made some extensive efforts and the
21 enforcement staff made some extensive efforts to
22 try to get some of the former athletes. You
23 heard me say today that we disassociated Behanan
24 even though he basically provided one interview.
25 We also disassociated Montrez Harrell
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Page 388
1 and Chris Jones because in our mind it was clear
2 that we got ahold of them and they told us no,
3 either through their benefactor or through some
4 other means.
5 So, I would say several reasons why we
6 have exemplary cooperation. Again, some of
7 these are in the response. What is not in the
8 response is what Mr. Parkinson said.
9 Another example that I would say is
10 exemplary cooperation was the effort that we
11 made to try to get McGee to talk. As I said,
12 when I was retained A.D. Jurich said we want to
13 know the truth and we want to know it as soon as
14 possible. We want to find out what we have as
15 an issue.
16 Tom and I went to see Scott Cox, who
17 was Mr. McGee's counsel. And we went to him and
18 said we don't want to travel all around the
19 country and ask a thousand athletes what went
20 on. If your client did this, we want to know
21 about it and we want him to come forth and tell
22 us about it. And we got chastised by the
23 enforcement staff because they said we didn't
24 ask permission to do that.
25 But we felt that we wanted to go to
Page 389
1 the source right away to figure out what
2 happened, so I would emphasize that as another
3 of the reasons.
4 You have a master chart that we
5 developed that took an extensive amount of time
6 by my staff, but that became the outline or the
7 blueprint because we took every unofficial and
8 official visit for the past four years, all the
9 comp admissions, and that laid out every weekend
10 over the last four years, and it was very easy
11 for the enforcement staff and the institution
12 then to say let's look at each weekend or let's
13 look at these people who made this.
14 So, for those reasons we believe that
15 exemplary cooperation should be found also.
16 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay,
17 thank you.
18 Ms. Hannah, what is the staff's
19 position relative to the aggravators and
20 mitigators for Allegation 1? Mr. Leffler.
21 MR. LEFFLER: Thank you, Dr.
22 Cartwright. In regard to Mr. McGee holding the
23 position of authority, Andre McGee was an adult
24 staff member that lived in Minardi as we already
25 discussed. He was in that position to supervise
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1 prospects and student-athletes at night in the 1 Ms. Hannah, the staff's position regarding Mr.
2 dormitory. 2 Pitino. Mr. Leffler.
3 The men's basketball program's 3 MR. LEFFLER: Thank you. The staff's
4 authorization for McGee to supervise the 4 position is as is stated in the reply, that it
5 prospects and the student-athletes clearly 5 doesn't have a position regarding mitigating or
6 supports that it and the institution viewed Mr. 6 aggravating circumstances as it refers to Coach
7 McGee as a person of authority over those 7 Pitino.
8 prospects and student-athletes staying in 8 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr.
9 Minardi. That's the enforcement staff's 9 Williams, the enforcement staff identified one
10 position regarding Andre McGee and his position 10 aggravating factor and no mitigating factors,
11 of authority. 11 and again the Panel notes that you did not
12 And we would note also that we are 12 directly address aggravating and mitigating
13 only referring to the two years that he served 13 factors in your responses to the allegations.
14 as Director of Basketball Operations, not two 14 Mr. Williams or Mr. Ginsberg, do you have a
15 years when he was a program assistant. 15 response, a position?
16 Also, regarding the institution's 16 MR. GINSBERG: The enforcement staff's
17 violation history, the enforcement staff feels 17 basis was that Mr. Williams committed unethical
18 that the history speaks for itself, and the 18 conduct by failing to cooperate. We
19 enforcement staff will defer to the Hearing 19 wholeheartedly, as you can gather, disagree with
20 Panel to determine if that history warrants the 20 that, and as I will expand upon during my
21 application of this aggravating factor. 21 summation, there was no unethical conduct, no
22 And then, finally, the enforcement 22 failure to cooperate, and Mr. Williams, as I
23 staff acknowledges that the institution met its 23 have said, cooperated fully in every manner in
24 obligation to cooperate during this 24 which he could.
25 investigation pursuant to Bylaw 19.2.3 by first 25 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
Page 391 Page 393
1 providing information in response to request by 1 Mr. Leffler, what's the staff's position -- oh,
2 the enforcement staff; second, assisting in 2 now you are going to someone else. All right.
3 scheduling and producing individuals for 3 Go ahead.
4 requested interviews; three, disclosing relevant 4 MR. STROTHKAMP: Thank you, Madam
5 information; and, four, maintaining the 5 Chair. The enforcement staff has nothing
6 integrity of the investigation. 6 further to add than what we put in our reply.
7 However, the enforcement staff does 7 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Finally,
8 not believe the institution's level of 8 the enforcement staff has identified five
9 cooperation merits consideration as a mitigating 9 aggravating and no mitigating factors related to
10 factor as provided by 19.9.4-(f), as much as it 10 Mr. McGee. Ms. Hannah, please explain the
11 met but it didn't exceed expectations. Thank 11 staff's position regarding Mr. McGee.
12 you. 12 MS. HANNAH: Well, you see the factors
13 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. 13 that we listed in there. Obviously, he is not
14 As it relates to Mr. Pitino, the enforcement 14 here to disagree with those, so we believe that
15 staff identified no aggravating and no 15 those should apply.
16 mitigating factors. Mr. Pitino, the Panel notes 16 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I
17 that you did not directly address this issue in 17 just wanted to give you an opportunity if there
18 your response to the allegations. What is your 18 was anything else you wanted to add.
19 position? Either you or Mr. Tompsett can reply. 19 MS. HANNAH: No.
20 MR. TOMPSETT: Our position is that 20 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Okay. All
21 there is no violation. There should be no 21 right, then, we will move to self-imposed
22 aggravating or mitigating factors because there 22 penalties. Regarding self-imposed penalties and
23 is no violation. There is no penalty to enhance 23 corrective actions, the Panel notes that the
24 or mitigate. 24 institution has self-imposed the following
25 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. 25 penalties:
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1 One, a postseason competition ban for 1 Jurich.
2 the men's basketball program in the 2015-'16 2 MR. JURICH: Thank you very much.
3 season. 3 Going back to that time, it was very difficult.
4 Two, a reduction in men's basketball 4 And as I mentioned this morning, I don't want to
5 grants by two for the 2016-'17 academic year. 5 be redundant, but I do think it is important.
6 Three, a reduction in recruiting 6 We found out late in August of 2015 of
7 opportunities by 30 in 2016. 7 this possibility. I immediately called Chuck,
8 Four, a reduction in official paid 8 somebody I trusted immensely. Chuck alerted
9 visits during the 2015-'16, the 2016-'17 and the 9 probably Steph or Derrick, Derrick, okay, that
10 2017-'18 academic years. 10 the NCAA, that we were going to move on with
11 Five, a $5,000 fine; and 11 this and try to get to the bottom of this and
12 Six, permanent disassociation of Mr. 12 find the truth.
13 McGee. 13 I think anybody that knows me, they
14 Mr. Smrt, does the institution have 14 will speak to that about me. I just want the
15 any additional comments relating to any proposed 15 truth. I want to know what happened, and we
16 potential or self-imposed penalties? 16 would do everything in our power to fix it.
17 MR. SMRT: Yes, a couple of comments. 17 Were there mistakes made, yes, and we are not
18 So, as a result of those aggravating and 18 going to hide from those. We will take them
19 mitigating, we came out that this is a Level I 19 head on and have taken them head on.
20 mitigated case. So that was our thinking. 20 I said to our community, I said to our
21 I would draw your attention to Page 21 investigative group on the campus that were made
22 Roman numeral III-3 of the institution's 22 up mostly of faculty, that once we found out the
23 response. In there there is a chart, Roman 23 truth, when Chuck could come back confident with
24 numeral III-III. In there there is a chart and 24 the facts, that we would make a decision to move
25 it displays the recommended penalties for a 25 forward. We would not wait and put this on the
Page 395 Page 397
1 Level I mitigated versus what we did, and on 1 NCAA's hands because I firmly believe what the
2 each occasion I believe we met or exceeded that 2 NCAA did ten, 12 years ago in changing the
3 recommended penalty. 3 policies of enforcement, that we would do out
4 The second point is that we didn't 4 part. It was our responsibility, we made the
5 permanently disassociate McGee, we recently 5 mistake, we would deal with it.
6 disassociated three individuals, three student- 6 On that February 4th or 5th day, I
7 athletes who did not cooperate with the 7 don't have a calendar in front of me, Chuck came
8 investigation: Montrez Harrell, Chris Jones and 8 in from Kansas City, said this is what I have,
9 Chane Behanan. They were disassociated for four 9 we went through it all, it sounded to me very
10 years. And there, if you want, we can give you 10 compelling. Dr. Ramsey asked me, Tom, what
11 their disassociation letter, but it's very 11 shall we do? I said it would be my decision
12 similar to the McGee disassociation letter 12 that we do the postseason ban right now.
13 except the number of years. 13 It was very difficult to go down -- I
14 Now, as far as it runs toward the 14 left there and I went and visited with Coach
15 scholarships -- well, I want to talk about the 15 Pitino. It was very difficult for him, it was
16 postseason ban, because some institutions oppose 16 very emotional, simply because we had a great
17 a postseason ban, but the impact of the 17 team. A lot of people do the postseason ban
18 postseason ban is not significant. I want Tom, 18 when they don't have a good team, it's very
19 and he briefly alluded this today, or this 19 convenient. This was 180 degrees from that.
20 morning, but I want him to tell a story about 20 So, to say that I polarized an entire
21 the postseason ban because again when I was 21 community is an understatement. To say I
22 retained in August 2015, he said find the truth 22 vilified an entire University community is an
23 and we are not going to wait to act if something 23 understatement. Coach Pitino had what we felt,
24 happened. 24 and there were probably 10 or 12 other schools
25 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr. 25 that felt the same way, that we could have won a
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1 National title last year. We were off to a
2 great start. We had just beaten North Carolina
3 and Syracuse, two Final Four participants, we
4 have beaten them handedly, felt very confident
5 in how we were going. We were getting better,
6 we were a young team with a senior back court,
7 which we brought in two senior transfers to play
8 in our back court and they were phenomenal. And
9 I think anybody that is familiar with the NCAA
10 tournament knows that back courts usually win.
11 So, we were excited.
12 You talk about a damper thrown on
13 them. I take full responsibility for that, I
14 made that decision, I have got to live with it,
15 I have got to live with myself.
16 I had a community that was up in arms.
17 You know, I felt we have paid the ultimate
18 price. I certainly know that I have, I
19 certainly know our kids have, I know our coaches
20 have, and I know our administration and our
21 community and our faculty have.
22 But I felt that, you know, if we did
23 the right thing, we would send a great message
24 to our campus. I never once thought I was going
25 to send a great message to you. I didn't think
Page 399
1 I was going to send it to Jon or Steph, or the
2 group over there. I just knew that we had to do
3 it for our own good because we said we would do
4 it, and we had to be somebody of our words.
5 We had that meeting that afternoon, on
6 a Thursday. On a Friday, the next Friday at
7 1:00 o'clock, within our 24-hour period that I
8 told everybody and promised them, we did it, we
9 acted on it. So, we did what we said, and I
10 think we have said what we would do. And we
11 have tried to stick by that. We have tried to
12 send a great message.
13 We hope and pray and know, and I feel
14 very confident that nothing like this will ever
15 happen on our campus again. We have many, many
16 new things in place. We have even hired the Dan
17 Beebe Group to help us with all kinds of risks,
18 and to make sure it doesn't happen.
19 But the number one thing that I would
20 love you to understand is the awareness on our
21 campus is at a phenomenal high right now. Thank
22 you.
23 MR. SMRT: I know Coach Pitino wants
24 to address that decision, but let me tell you
25 what I told the school in February of 2016. I
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1 said this hearing will not occur until the
2 spring of 2017. I said so you are going to get
3 through two basketball postseasons by the time
4 this hearing comes up. You can take it now, you
5 can take it for the '17 spring, you can wait
6 until the spring of '17 and say you are going to
7 take it for the spring of '18, or you can wait
8 and let the Committee impose it upon you for the
9 spring of '18. Those were the options. And
10 that is when Tom made the decision we are not
11 waiting.
12 MR. JURICH: And as I said earlier,
13 Madam Chair, I felt it was our responsibility to
14 have the blood on our hands, not on their hands,
15 because we made the mistake, we knew it, we
16 looked at it, and we felt we were the ones that
17 were responsible to fix it.
18 I have been criticized roundly around
19 the country by my peers that sit in mine and
20 Greg's seat, saying why didn't you just wait,
21 why don't you wait, why don't you wait? And I
22 said I couldn't wait, because the truth came
23 out. We knew the truth, we knew we were wrong,
24 and it was our responsibility to fix it.
25 I didn't want to sit here and give you
Page 401
1 a bunch of excuses or any one of you. And I
2 think that the enforcement group over there
3 knows that.
4 We traveled even to see them last
5 spring to tell them so. I wanted to get the
6 thing over that day, and obviously the process
7 wouldn't let you. But that's how open and
8 honest we tried to be in this whole thing. We
9 know we were wrong and we acted on it.
10 MR. SMRT: The purpose of all of this
11 is to eliminate any impression in your head that
12 the decision was made to do it this year, last
13 year, because we had a better chance next year
14 or two years down the road, and I want Coach
15 Pitino to briefly address that.
16 MR. PITINO: Well, I just told Tom, I
17 said, Tom, Chuck is saying it doesn't matter
18 whether we do it this year or next year, all I
19 can tell you is this year, meaning the year we
20 took it, we have a senior back court. Some guys
21 may go pro, and next year we probably won't have
22 one player returning on our basketball team that
23 averages double figures, which was true, and the
24 chances of us winning it the following year are
25 not as good as this year. We all know it's a
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1 game of Russian roulette in the NCAA Tournament.
2 Anybody can win it and anybody can go.
3 But we had a much better team that
4 year that we took it. We were ranked 11th, 12th
5 in the nation. We got as high as 6 or 7. We
6 were the top defensive team in the nation. We
7 have 250 with seniors starting. We had a deep
8 and talented team. As Tom alluded to, we beat
9 two Final Four teams. The following year we
10 weren't going to have a deep team, and this year
11 we played with a walk-on as our backup point
12 guard because we were down two scholarships.
13 I felt from a basketball standpoint it
14 was better to wait a year, but I do whatever Tom
15 wants. He's obviously the leader of our team.
16 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Anything
17 further, Mr. Smrt?
18 MR. SMRT: Yes, the penalties. We took
19 scholarship cuts and again, Coach, very briefly,
20 can you explain the impact of the scholarship
21 cuts that we took?
22 MR. PITINO: Well, this year you are
23 playing throughout the whole season, you are
24 playing a walk-on as your first guy in off the
25 bench. A walk-on really is not our level of
Page 403
1 play. And two scholarships with a pressing team
2 is tough. There are certain teams like Duke
3 that play six, seven people a game, and then
4 there is programs like us that play 10 or 11
5 because of the system.
6 Taking two scholarship hurt much more.
7 It really was a two-year penalty. Although we
8 made the NCAA, it wasn't the typical local
9 basketball team, two scholarships reduction.
10 I made a mistake in that area. I
11 probably should have taken one and one. I
12 wanted to get this so far behind us, it has
13 stressed me out beyond comprehension. I wanted
14 to take everything right away and get it behind
15 us and just to clear our heads. But in
16 hindsight I made a mistake in taking the two
17 scholarship reduction right away.
18 MR. SMRT: I think that's it on
19 penalty. We do want to talk about vacation.
20 MS. WISE: I just wanted to add to
21 that, there were three faculty members who
22 served on the Investigative Committee. We were
23 advisory, we were certainly not asked to vote on
24 this decision.
25 But all of us came to the conclusion
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1 very quickly that what had happened was just
2 incredibly devastating in terms of the
3 reputation of the University, our sense of who
4 we were and our sense of self. Our faculty,
5 staff and students were horrified by what had
6 happened. They were devastated by what they
7 considered to be a blow to the institution's
8 image and reputation.
9 Faculty take very seriously that the
10 reputation of the University be something they
11 could be proud of. And so they were deeply
12 hurt. But when we made the decision to take the
13 self-imposed ban that year, faculty, staff and
14 students were all so furious with us that we did
15 it to the point that I got phone calls, I got
16 notes slipped under my door, how could you
17 possibly have done this?
18 Did you vote on this? And that's
19 party because they truly believed that we were
20 doing something to these fine young men Damion
21 Lee, Trey Lewis and the others, that was going
22 to deny them a National Championship.
23 And I think you have to understand, we
24 really believed that in 2015 we were going to
25 win a National Championship. That's what we
Page 405
1 gave up, and we did it because we believed it
2 was the right thing to do, to send the message
3 about the integrity of our program, how much we
4 cared that our image be untarnished. That's why
5 we did it then and we still believe it was the
6 right thing to do. But that's how important it
7 was that we took it then.
8 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
9 That's a helpful perspective. If you have a
10 comment about vacation, go ahead.
11 MR. SMRT: Unfortunately, it's more
12 than one word. but because it's so very
13 important to us. And vacation is on a list of
14 penalties that you can look at.
15 I know a long time ago this morning,
16 you asked a couple of questions of Steph, and
17 one of them was did athletes compete while
18 ineligible. And Steph said yes, and there was a
19 mention of vacation.
20 So, we feel so very strong that this
21 case does not warrant a vacation of records that
22 we want to make sure we comment on that.
23 In half of the cases recently, in the
24 last 50 cases or so, 51 cases, you vacated in
25 about half of them, and we think we know why you
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1 have done that, and in our response we have
2 addressed the vacation. We address six reasons
3 in our response why we don't think vacation is
4 appropriate. And I want to talk about three of
5 those, but again I refer you to our response
6 because we spend about ten pages addressing it.
7 Why? Again, because this is so very important
8 to the institution.
9 There were 17 prospects in the
10 allegations of which eight, 17 of which eight
11 enrolled, and seven of those eight played
12 postseason. Those eight competed in 108 regular
13 season wins and those seven competed in 15 NCAA
14 wins, including a National Championship in the
15 spring of 2013.
16 I would point out to you in these
17 charts Steph referenced on Pages III-12 and III-
18 13 of our response, we have broken out in those
19 charts those athletes by academic year where
20 it's alleged that they received benefits. We
21 have also included the value of the benefits.
22 I would like to point out, and I
23 needed to add a letter in the chart for 2012-'13
24 under Chane Behanan and under Allegation
25 Subparagraph "j" should also be inserted in
Page 407
1 there for the record.
2 But we have said three reasons I want
3 to briefly address with you why we don't believe
4 the vacation is appropriate. The value of the
5 benefits, the student-athletes would have been
6 reinstated if they would have gone through the
7 process and case precedent.
8 I mentioned to you this morning the
9 $5,400 value of the benefits is what's alleged.
10 We agree with $4,500 and the $900 is basically
11 split the difference between we don't believe it
12 occurred versus overvalue of the benefits. Now
13 we are down even less.
14 For those who competed in postseason
15 we are at alleged about $2,500, what we
16 acknowledge is about $1,700. What's alleged is
17 about $2,500 and what's acknowledged is $1,700.
18 Those figures are in our charts but, for
19 example, in the National Championship year 2012-
20 '13, what's alleged is $380, what's acknowledged
21 is 125. Even if you include previous year on
22 that, at that time all that's acknowledged value
23 of benefits is $530 that we don't believe should
24 affect a National Championship trophy.
25 My second point is the student-
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1 athletes would have been reinstated. It seems
2 to me that vacation of records is appropriate
3 when someone shouldn't be out there. That if
4 you would have found out about the violation,
5 that person wouldn't have competed. That
6 athlete should not have been out there.
7 In these cases, in most of your
8 vacation cases, it's academic ineligibility, and
9 it's clear the athlete shouldn't have been
10 competing. If these athletes, if it would have
11 been known that they had got the benefits, they
12 would have gone through reinstatement and they
13 would have been reinstated.
14 So, it wasn't a situation where they
15 shouldn't have been out there because they were
16 somehow -- if they would have gone through the
17 restoration request, they would have been
18 reinstated. Why do we know that? Because one
19 of them did go through that process and did not
20 have to sit and that's Chinanu.
21 The Committee knows that generally
22 speaking a benefit of $100 for extra benefits,
23 below $100 does not cost you eligibility. Siva
24 had the highest extra benefit value, right at
25 $100. You know that a value on recruiting of
Page 409
1 less than $500 does not affect eligibility
2 generally. Rozier had the highest at $480. So,
3 even if you would have taken those figures and
4 gone through the restoration process, they would
5 have been restored.
6 Vacating should result because an
7 athlete was out there competing when they would
8 have lost games. These athletes would not have
9 lost games.
10 Our third of the three is case
11 precedent. Again, I mentioned since January of
12 '13 to December of 2016 you processed
13 approximately 51 cases, of which 26 included a
14 vacation of records. Of those 26, 20 had to do
15 with academic ineligibility or a failure to
16 monitor by the institution, which is not in this
17 case, a lack of control, which is not in this
18 case.
19 The majority of your vacation cases in
20 the past have been due to academic
21 ineligibility, failure to monitor, lack of
22 control. None of those exist in this case.
23 Of those six that are in that category
24 that you vacated, the value of those benefits in
25 that case are a lot higher than what you have
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1 with the athletes that competed.
2 Now, of the 25 that you didn't vacate,
3 most of those did not relate to eligibility
4 types of violations, which we think was in this
5 type of case because they would have been
6 reinstated. So, we believe case precedent does
7 not support a vacation of records in this case.
8 My last point is one of the three
9 points that I did not intend to get into, but
10 it's difficult not to. You come up with a
11 penalty based upon case severity. We followed
12 the recommended guidelines of the NCAA, and we
13 said here's the recommended penalties for
14 postseason ban, we did that. Here's the
15 recommended for scholarships, we did that.
16 Now, to vacate 105 wins, 15 postseason
17 wins and a National Championship, that's a very,
18 very significant penalty that if imposed would
19 skew the severity of this case. We are
20 following the guidelines as recommended, that
21 postseason ban on the scholarships and the
22 finals.
23 So, in conclusion, on vacation we
24 don't believe it's appropriate. We don't think
25 you have done this in previous cases, but we
Page 411
1 would be remiss and they would fire me for
2 malpractice if I didn't say to you how firmly we
3 believe that vacation is not appropriate in this
4 case. Thank you.
5 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
6 We will now move to closing statements from the
7 parties. Initially, let me thank the
8 University, President Postel, the enforcement
9 staff, Mr. Pitino, Mr. Williams and Mr.
10 Hostetter for your presence today. The Panel
11 appreciates the full participation by all in
12 attendance as it is by such full participation
13 that we are able to render a fully considered
14 decision.
15 I don't know who President Postel has
16 asked to give the University's closing
17 statements, but before any of those statements
18 are given, let's be sure that they are indeed
19 brief closing statements and not restatement of
20 the presentations. Ms. Wise.
21 MS. WISE: I am Elaine Wise, the
22 Faculty Athletics Rep, and I am speaking on
23 behalf of President Postel.
24 On behalf of Dr. Postel, who is
25 hosting a black tie event as we speak for our
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1 International Grawemeyer Award recipients, our
2 major donors and community leaders, I come to
3 you to thank you.
4 We deeply appreciate the time that
5 both the enforcement staff and this Committee
6 has spent and will spend, the thoughtful
7 discussion that has taken place, even though
8 it's sometimes contentious. We believe that you
9 operate in good faith, and I hope you understand
10 that we operate in good faith.
11 I would like to reiterate the fact
12 that this meeting is the result of the action of
13 one person, one person who we trusted at the
14 University from top to bottom, from faculty to
15 students to coaches to athletes to the A.D., to
16 the President, we all trusted this young man.
17 It was not reflective of our
18 institutional culture, and we were stunned then
19 and we remain stunned now by the nature of this
20 violation. It was ugly, it was embarrassing, it
21 was disruptive, it was disgusting, all the other
22 words that you want to use, and we understand
23 that.
24 Our purpose today then is not to offer
25 excuses because we don't know what those excuses
Page 413
1 might be. But this was an event in the past and
2 we are here today to cooperate fully with you
3 and to assist you in your deliberations.
4 We do believe it is terribly important
5 to remind you that in February of 2016, upon
6 learning of the inappropriate behavior, the
7 offense that had occurred, U of L self-imposed
8 the most severe penalty that we could possibly
9 impose on ourself as an acceptance of our
10 accountability and as a statement to you, but
11 most of all, to the community and to our
12 students and our student-athletes that this is
13 not representative of the way college athletics
14 should be run, it is not representative of the
15 students, faculty and staff of our Conference
16 and of our University.
17 We are proud of the work of our
18 University, and this was an embarrassment so we
19 took it and we took it on the nose.
20 Finally, we accept the process of the
21 NCAA. We look forward to the conclusion of
22 these considerations and these deliberations,
23 and we promise you that we will continue to do
24 whatever we must do as a University to rebuild
25 what wee have lost in confidence, to rebuild our
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1 programs, to rebuild our reputation, and we
2 thank you for hearing us today.
3 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you
4 very much. Thanks also for setting a nice
5 standard. Mr. Pitino, you or your counsel may
6 give a closing statement.
7 MR. TOMPSETT: Very brief, and I will
8 turn it over to Coach Pitino. Making a finding
9 that Coach Pitino failed to monitor would be,
10 for all intents and purposes, applying a strict
11 liability standard. There is nothing that Coach
12 Pitino could have reasonably done to discover or
13 detect the violations.
14 I would ask you to not let the
15 ideology of holding head coaches accountable
16 become more important than facts and common
17 sense.
18 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Mr.
19 Pitino.
20 MR. PITINO: Thank you. I appreciate
21 everybody's time, and I am going to be very
22 brief because I am tired as I am sure all of you
23 are.
24 One thing that was left out was Andre
25 McGee played for me for four years. He was
Page 415
1 voted Captain because of his exemplary
2 leadership by his fellow teammates.
3 Academically, he carried himself the highest
4 way, the way he treated people, the way he
5 treated fans, the way he signed autographs, the
6 way he was caring about everybody, I for four
7 years witnessed someone with great leadership
8 characteristics. And he did an awesome job for
9 me. It was never about the name on the back, it
10 was always about the name on the front.
11 So when he skyped me from Germany and
12 said he was being cut, I said, well, what do you
13 want to do, son? He said I would like to go
14 into coaching. I said high school coaching,
15 what type of coaching? He said I would really
16 like to get into college coaching. I said, all
17 right, get on the next plane, come on back, we
18 will start you at the lowest level and you'll
19 work your way up the ladder, which he was doing.
20 I never had any reason to believe he
21 had any of this in him because he played four
22 years for me. He gave me every ounce of
23 perspiration he had the right way in the way he
24 treated people, in the way he did things.
25 This could have taken place in any
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1 dormitory on campus and would not have been
2 caught. It's not about Minardi Hall. It hurt
3 more because of what it meant to me, but it
4 could have taken place and no one would have
5 found out those four or five times a year when
6 things happened behind closed doors that were
7 despicable.
8 That being said, I know for, I don't
9 know how -- I guess I have been coaching 41
10 years now, I feel like I am 90 after today, I
11 know I have done things the right way. I would
12 never deviate from doing it the right way to get
13 a player, never. I will take less of a talent,
14 try to get them to work harder before I do
15 things the wrong way.
16 Every person on this Committee from
17 Compliance to Elaine to our Athletic Director to
18 our President knows what I am all about. I am
19 on your team. I believe in the system. All I
20 can say is that I did not fail to monitor Andre
21 McGee because in closing, every single morning,
22 every single day I said the same thing to our
23 staff members, tell me about recruiting, go.
24 What do you think we need to get better on film,
25 guys, from watching practice? Go.
Page 417
1 Andre, tell me everything good in the
2 dorm? Tell me about everything that's going on
3 in that dormitory. Every single day I asked him
4 the same question. And of course, he lied to me
5 and nobody came forward with any information.
6 Everybody else told me the truth, he lied.
7 It's an unfortunate lie that ruined
8 his life and to a certain degree ruined my life.
9 But we go on, we try to make things bigger and
10 better. And I thank you for your time today.
11 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
12 Mr. Williams, you or your counsel may give a
13 closing statement if you wish.
14 MR. GINSBERG: Thank you and thank
15 you-all very much for your time and attention in
16 this very serious matter. I will be brief.
17 I do want to start, though, with
18 responding to Jon's baseless allegation against
19 me and then I will go on to the baseless
20 allegation against my client.
21 If he had had the professional
22 courtesy of talking to me, he would have learned
23 that I had no idea how the media ended up
24 outside tonight, nor does Brandon. The one
25 communication I had, as I said before, was an e-
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1 mail saying where in Kansas City is the hearing?
2 And I wrote back "Good luck," and that was it.
3 I not only didn't respond it was in
4 Cincinnati, I didn't respond any more than I
5 just told you.
6 With regard to Brandon's supplemental
7 submission being in the media, I remind Jon, and
8 I would have been glad to have reminded him if
9 he had told me that he was going to make these
10 accusations in today's hearing, that on March
11 23rd, the media published in full the University
12 of Louisville submission, including the NCAA
13 allegations. And I was shocked. I had never
14 seen that happen before.
15 To put it in context, our supplemental
16 response was due on March 24th. I made some
17 inquiries and found that there was an open
18 records request and Louisville did what it was
19 legally obligated to do.
20 So, simultaneously with us submitting
21 our supplemental papers, I wrote to Louisville
22 an e-mail and said please, there is an open
23 records request apparently, make sure you
24 release our supplemental response. That was on
25 a Friday, March 24th.
Page 419
1 By the time Monday rolled around, and
2 I would have gotten back in touch with
3 Louisville and asked again for publication, our
4 submission was in the media.
5 No advantage. The NCAA had had its
6 allegations in the media and the University of
7 Louisville had its response in the media, but
8 Jon, for some reason, thinks that that should
9 have been shared and aired out today for
10 whatever tactical advantage he thought
11 appropriate.
12 Now, let me talk about the nature of
13 the allegation against Mr. Williams.
14 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: And
15 remember this is a closing statement.
16 MR. GINSBERG: The allegation against
17 Mr. Williams is simple. It said he failed to
18 cooperate. I think we have provided a full
19 record of the fact that Mr. Williams cooperated
20 with interviews and records and everything that
21 was asked of him except the one item he could
22 not produce.
23 And as I said, I wish that that had
24 been more fully communicated, but the facts are
25 what the facts are, and Mr. Williams had no
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1 legal ability to produce the phone.
2 Mr. Christopher made a comment about,
3 I think saying that I had somehow misled in my
4 presentation, and I think he was referring to
5 the issue of the phone and whether Brandon had
6 produced the phone that was the subject of the
7 records.
8 Apparently the phone was replaced, but
9 my understanding was that all of the data was
10 transferred from the old phone to the new phone.
11 I based that in part upon my own limited
12 technology knowledge, but I think I am right.
13 And one of the reasons I think I am
14 right was that Brandon gave over his phone for
15 mirror imaging in March, and it wasn't for three
16 months that anyone told him they wanted anything
17 more. And I think the reason is that nothing
18 more was asked, I think it was because the
19 mirror image, in fact, did include the four
20 months about which the NCAA enforcement was
21 interested. But I don't know that. But that
22 was my impression.
23 But certainly Brandon did turn over
24 immediately what he was asked for and certainly
25 there was a three-month hiatus for when there
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1 was a communication that the NCAA wanted
2 something more.
3 There was a third issue that I
4 addressed in my submission. It involved the
5 integrity of the process. The lack of producing
6 exculpatory information, the lack of
7 representation, and then the other issues. I
8 am not going to go over that because I, frankly,
9 don't think that you need to even get to that
10 issue.
11 Brandon did cooperate fully. I think
12 the war is now clear within the confines of the
13 NCAA that he could not legally produce his
14 mother's records and hopefully the record is now
15 clear that he asked and she said no.
16 I submit when you weigh those factors
17 with what this allegation of unethical conduct
18 has done and stands to do to Brandon going
19 forward, it would be a miscarriage of justice
20 and unfairness and inappropriate for Brandon to
21 be forever stigmatized with these allegations.
22 So, I thank you, and I know there has
23 been contention and tension during the course of
24 the day, but I know you know how important it is
25 and how important it is to Brandon and his
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 Page 422 Page 424
1 future. Thank you. 1 Thank you.
2 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. 2 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: That is
3 Ms. Hannah, does the enforcement staff have 3 helpful. Thank you. Mr. Hostetter.
4 closing comments or Mr. Duncan? 4 MR. HOSTETTER: Thank you, Dr.
5 MS. HANNAH: I do, a couple of things. 5 Cartwright. I guess I should apologize to the
6 Chuck mentioned that the institution's previous 6 group for being last after a long and emotional
7 infractions case was in 1998, and that actually 7 day. But I do want to thank the Committee for
8 was my case, and Tom Jurich was new to the 8 your time and the energy and effort you put into
9 institution at the time. But it was clear that 9 this work. It's obviously a lot of work but
10 he was committed to helping the enforcement 10 very important work.
11 staff in its investigation or doing what they 11 I know it's been said today by almost
12 asked in getting to the bottom of things, and 12 everybody, but from a Conference perspective,
13 even though one of the issues was men's 13 the behavior that happened in this case is
14 basketball involved Denny Crum, who was an icon 14 obviously embarrassing and is unacceptable.
15 as the head men's basketball coach there, and he 15 Notwithstanding the nature of this
16 was the new guy, he didn't back down from saying 16 conduct, the Conference does view Louisville's
17 enforcement staff, do what you need to do and my 17 compliance efforts in very high regard. I
18 staff will support you. 18 personally have worked with Matt and John for a
19 And all these years later, he still 19 number of years, even years before I came to the
20 has the same approach to that. Several years 20 ACC and have always respected the way that
21 ago when we had another case on campus, it 21 they've gone about their work.
22 didn't turn out to be major, but Tom's approach 22 They are one of our more active
23 was the same then. I think it's that he wants 23 staffs. They ask proactive questions and get to
24 to support the staff and he wants his staff to 24 the bottom of issues and do their work
25 do what they can to help the enforcement staff, 25 diligently. All this doesn't happen without the
Page 423 Page 425
1 and he kind of gets out of the way and lets them 1 right tone being set by Tom, as you've heard
2 do their work because he is committed to 2 others reference today, and most recently by Ms.
3 compliance. 3 Hannah, the tone that Tom and the University
4 So, it makes him and his institution 4 administration has set for the expectations in
5 really easy to work with, and I think that's a 5 compliance.
6 credit to his leadership. And then as it relates 6 I thought it was just important to
7 to Coach Pitino, you know a lot of times, not a 7 share that perspective as somebody who has sat
8 lot of times, sometimes it's not uncommon when 8 here all day and listened to the testimony but
9 we interview head coaches who have been in the 9 sees these folks the rest of the year outside of
10 business a long time, have a lot of experience, 10 this particular room. So, thank you again for
11 to not be an easy interview. They are 11 your time and energy, and appreciate this coming
12 talkative, they are rambling, they have a hard 12 to a conclusion.
13 time answering questions directly, they have 13 THE CHIEF HEARING OFFICER: Thank you
14 tempers sometimes, and Coach Pitino was none of 14 very much. After adjournment, the Panel will
15 those things. 15 spend whatever time is necessary in
16 He was professional, courteous, 16 deliberations to fully consider all the
17 polite, friendly, and most importantly, he 17 information in the record, resolve the issues
18 answered questions directly and succinctly. So, 18 and conclude whether violations of NCAA
19 I know it wasn't a pleasant situation for him, 19 legislation occurred.
20 it's not for us either, but thanks to him and 20 It appears that the alleged violations
21 his professionalism it went as well as it could 21 occurred both before and after October 30th,
22 have. 22 2012, therefore, the Panel will need to
23 So to the extent those things are 23 determine which penalty structure applies. The
24 important to the Committee, I just want to let 24 Panel will then produce an infractions decision
25 you know about that, and that's all I have. 25 detailing the Panel's factual findings,
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 Page 426 Page 428
1 conclusions of whether violations occurred and 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 any prescribed penalties. 2
3 If the Panel concludes that violations 3 I, JOHN M. BOWEN, a Certified Court
4 of NCAA legislation occurred, the institution, 4 Reporter in the State of Missouri, hereby
5 Mr. Pitino and Mr. Williams will have the 5 certify that I was present at the hearing as set
6 opportunity to appeal any factual findings or 6 forth in the caption sheet thereof, and that I
7 conclusions as well as any penalties that apply 7 then and there took down in shorthand the
8 to them to the Division I Infractions Appeals 8 proceedings had thereat, and that the foregoing
9 Committee. Instructions regarding appeals will 9 pages constitute a true and correct transcript
10 be provided when you receive the infractions 10 of such notes made at said time and place.
11 decision. 11 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto
12 The Association's public affairs 12 set my hand this 12th day of May, 2017.
13
13 liaison will notify the President's office or
14
14 the person designated by the University and 15
15 notify the involved individuals 24 hours ahead 16 /s/ John M. Bowen
17
16 of the public release of the decision. Unless 18 Certified Court Reporter
17 otherwise notified, the University and involved 19 C.C.R. No. 727(G)
18 individuals will be e-mailed a copy of the 20
19 decision at 10:00 a.m. Eastern Time the day of 21
20 the release. 22
21 The public release of the decision is 23
22 followed by a press conference with a member of 24
23 this Panel, usually the Chief Hearing Officer. 25
24 There will be no other statements by members of 26
25 the Panel about this case. 27
Page 427
1 The NCAA strives to preserve the
2 confidentiality of these proceedings and those
3 providing information. The requirement of
4 confidentiality pertains to these hearings. The
5 Panel cautions all parties that you must refrain
6 from revealing what was discussed in the hearing
7 today, especially with the media, until after
8 the public release of the infractions decision.
9 Can I just have a show of hands of
10 everyone who is ready to affirm that commitment
11 to confidentiality? Excellent.
12 So, unless there are other matters to
13 come before us today, and given the hour I think
14 we all are certainly hoping that that's not the
15 case, we will conclude the hearing at this time
16 in Case No. 00527, the University of Louisville.
17 We stand adjourned.
18 (Whereupon, the hearing was duly
19 adjourned at 7:20 p.m.)
20
21
22
23
24
25

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