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VOLUME TWO,
FAITH AND TRANSFORMATION
EIGEN IN SEOUL:
VOLUME TWO,
FAITH AND
TRANSFORMATION
Michael Eigen
First published in 2011 by
Karnac Books Ltd
118 Finchley Road
London NW3 5HT
The right of Michael Eigen to be identified as the author of this work has been
asserted in accordance with §§ 77 and 78 of the Copyright Design and Patents
Act 1988.
ISBN-13: 978-1-85575-770-7
www.karnacbooks.com
CONTENTS
PREFACE vii
CHAPTER ONE
Day 1 1
CHAPTER TWO
Day 2 37
CHAPTER THREE
Day 3 77
REFERENCES 113
v
PREFACE
Michael Eigen
New York City, January 2011
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Michael Eigen has been practising in the mental health field for over
fifty years, first with disturbed children in schools and treatment
centres, then as a psychoanalytic psychotherapist, psychoanalyst,
and psychologist in clinic and individual practice. He has taught at
several universities, including the New York University Postdoctoral
Program in Psychotherapy and Psychoanalysis. He has also taught at
many psychoanalytic institutes, including directing a programme for
creative individuals in psychoanalysis. He was Director of Training at
the Institute for Expressive Analysis and is currently on the faculty as
a control/training analyst of the National Psychological Association for
Psychoanalysis, where he was on the Board of Directors for eight years.
He has published over one hundred papers and nineteen books.
ix
CHAPTER ONE
Day 1
1
2 EIGEN IN SEOUL
and beauty, see “Tears of Pain and Beauty: Mixed Voices” in Contact
With the Depths, 2011).
Does anyone want to try to tell me what Bion thinks is the core of
a dream? What is the core of a dream for Bion? Anyone have any ideas?
[A woman answered, but her voice was not picked up. She answered
that for Bion the core of the dream is the emotional experience. She also
spoke of the importance of reading a text like Bion’s a little at a time,
even fragments and phrases. Focusing on little bits at a time opens
vistas.]
Yes. Exactly right. That’s the core of a dream for Bion. You hit the
bull’s eye. One of many ways of reading, a very important way, is to
read as this woman suggests, a little bit, even a phrase. D. H. Lawrence
felt you could get the DNA of an author just by reading a paragraph.
On page 233 of Cogitations, in the middle of the page, Bion writes
that the core of the dream is the emotional experience. We often don’t
know what that is. What is the core of the dream? Dream emotion can
be elusive. If you live with a dream, one day the emotional experience
feels one way, another day it changes somewhat. How do you step into
the same dream twice? The emotional experience evolves, transforms
over time. And perhaps you will have transformed a little too, by living
with the experience. The sentence says, “The core of the dream is not
the manifest content but the emotional experience.”
When I say we don’t know what the emotional experience is, it could
mean many things. We could be speaking about what our emotional
experience of the dream is, what kind of emotions the dream makes
us have. Or we could be speaking of the emotional experience that
the dream is expressing. An emotional experience that we’re not sure
about, unknown emotional experience. An unknown experience that
challenges us, or intrigues us, or haunts, or invites us. The Talmud says
every dream is an unopened letter from God. We don’t open or are una-
ble to open too many of these letters. But sometimes a letter haunts us.
Dreams have a wide range of experience—some are beautiful and
fulfilling, many are scary or hurtful or don’t end very well. Most dreams
are aborted. Aborted experience. Something happens to frustrate the
dream. An arc of experience falls short, is broken off before completion.
Perhaps the dream is attempting to portray something broken, inter-
rupted, incomplete, fragmented. Perhaps the very experience of incom-
pletion and interruption is being dramatized and fed to us. As if the
feeling of something being aborted is part of our insides. An intimation
DAY 1 3
and that appear together. Hume noted that people attribute causation
to things that are associated—constantly conjoined—with each other.
We see the sun rise and cross the heavens daily and think Apollo is
drawing it along in his chariot. We make up reasons, myths of causa-
tion. We make up reasons to explain why things appear together, why
this goes with that.
Very often we don’t know why this goes with that. We just notice when
this happens, that happens. The cause might be something, somewhere
else entirely. What we notice might be the middle of a story. We may
not know the beginning or end of the story. X goes with Y. We make
up myths and stories and scientific explanations as to why these things
appear together. Sometimes we’re right, but usually we’re not.
A particular constant conjunction that Bion is interested in is the
following: something like a good feeling appears and then a bad feel-
ing happens. Something good happens, something bad happens. You
think you’re doing something good and helpful, then a calamity arises.
Like in old silent movies. When a character says in the beginning of the
movie, “What a beautiful day”, you know something awful is going to
happen. Maybe you’re sailing along with good feelings, but walking
on thin ice without knowing it, disaster not far away. Bion notes this
conjunction, this coming together, this pattern, this repetition, this con-
nection, this link: something good happening, something bad happen-
ing, good feeling—bad feeling.
An example of constant conjunction in the external world is the
recent economic mania and then meltdown. I don’t know if it hit this
country, but in the United States there was a decade or so of economic
escalation, then catastrophe hit. This wasn’t a surprise from Bion’s
point of view. Up-down, good-bad are facets of a constant conjunction,
recurrent happenings in the field of experience.
It goes on all the time, ubiquitous. A rhythm, back and forth between
pleasure-pain, joy-suffering, something good one moment, then some-
thing seems to take it away. This inner sequence in normal living in
inescapable.
Our job with our patients and with ourselves, is to help make room
for this sequence, for this inner rhythm, for different transformations
of this constant conjunction. Not to get rid of it. We cannot get rid of it.
We’d be getting rid of ourselves. Even in nirvana, you will not get rid
of it. One has to learn to live with it, have a larger frame of reference,
open the playing field, make more room.
DAY 1 5
An example Bion likes is the Tower of Babel (p. 241). The story
begins with people cooperating, working together, with good will.
People speaking a common language engaged in the common task of
reaching heaven. What could be wrong with reaching heaven? What
could be better? And then disaster strikes. We attribute it to God. God
didn’t like this cooperative activity. He attacks the link. You silly peo-
ple, you shouldn’t do this, you can’t reach heaven yet. You’re going too
far, too fast. God strikes the people down. He attacks the link. He cre-
ates a situation in which people can’t understand each other. They no
longer speak the same language or the same emotional language; there
is a babble of tongues.
As psychoanalytic people, we know that this angry God is our-
selves. It’s us. We’re the angry god. From my particular theistic point of
view, God is unknown. An unknown God. He may not be unknown for
you in your particular theism, but in Judaism, God is an unknown god.
We’re not even allowed to say his Name. He’s mysterious. What can we
say about him? We can feel him. We can feel it. We feel this presence. We
feel a deep presence, which we’ll speak more about this afternoon when
we talk about Winnicott. An implicit, mysterious presence deep in our
loneliness, in our insides. What is it? We don’t know.
Much about what we say about God describes aspects of ourselves
and our experience of life. In Rage, I have a chapter describing God’s
personality. And it is clear in describing attributes of God we describe
aspects of ourselves and wishes about ourselves. The angry god in the
myth of Babel—that’s us. We are that. We are the angry god, a very
angry god. In psychoanalytic talk, the god that destroys links between
people is in us, a part of us.
So what does this god do? In the myth of the Tower of Babel, he stops
us from reaching heaven. As we get a taste of heaven, he pulls the cord,
puts the brakes on and destroys our reaching out or attempts to destroy
it. When we’re cooperative with each other and want to make earth like
heaven, make a heaven on earth, something goes wrong. Something
stops it. And the force that stops it is in ourselves.
This has a very important implication for getting along together,
how we get along together. In order to get along together, we have to
make room for not getting along together. If you’re in a relationship,
if you have a partner, you don’t get along together all the time. If you
get along together 5 percent of the time, it’s a good relationship. We
have to make room for not getting along. Or not being there. Or being
6 EIGEN IN SEOUL
irritable, or whatever it is. But in order for us human beings to get along
together, we have to learn how not to get along in a better way.
So again, the God of Babel, a force within us that attacks cooperative
links is something inside us. Something inside us that attacks ourselves,
attacks our own link with ourselves. Something of us that’s unable to
get along with our own selves. Our own self can’t get along with itself
and keeps attacking itself. It’s like a wounded rat I once saw. One of its
legs was wounded, and I watched it chew it off. We feel emotional pain
inside and we may try to solve the pain by tearing at it, by making the
wound bleed more. We do it instinctively because we don’t have the
evolutionary tools to stand back and figure out a better way of doing it.
That’s one of the forefronts psychoanalytic therapeutic work is experi-
menting with. Can we develop tools to work with emotional life, to
work with our wounds in a better way, in a way that doesn’t make it
worse?
We’re lucky, in a way, because heaven doesn’t give up on us very
easily. And good feelings return in periods of recovery. So there are peri-
ods of attack, attacking each other, attacking ourselves and periods of
recovery from attack. The good doesn’t give up, it isn’t ended, it comes
back. We’re resilient up to a point, we’re testing what that point is right
now, we’re testing how resilient the earth can be, how resilient we can
be in the face of toxins we’re pouring into ourselves and into the world.
But so far, up to now, we managed to survive our own toxins in some
form or another. So far the earth has managed to survive us. Whether it
will continue so, we don’t know. But we’re hoping that something in us
will come to our rescue. The challenge of a negative force doesn’t stop.
I’d like to give another example that Bion gives of a constant conjunc-
tion between something good and something bad, a patient’s dream.
Bion’s patient dreams that he’s on a train and thinks there’s a potential
disaster ahead. He sees cars near the tracks and tries to signal the train
to stop or signal the cars away. He signals as if he were in a car, stick-
ing his hand out the window to make a stop signal. And his hand falls
off. It causes trouble, perhaps annoys other passengers, creates a delay.
Perhaps now the focus will be on his dismembered arm and dealing
with the damage. His attempt to help makes matters worse. The very
mechanism through which he tries to help causes difficulty. In this case
Bion sketches a constant conjunction between trying to do something
good and results opposite to a helpful intention.
DAY 1 7
Again, the aim of therapy would not be to get rid of any of these
tendencies but to develop, to evolve with them, to make a bigger play-
ing field, stretch to encompass them better, make more room for them.
That’s the message I’m trying to communicate. To make more room for
the rhythm of these tendencies so that they have room to play. I just
came from Kyoto and one of the many amazing art works I saw was
a Buddha, I don’t know the Japanese pronunciation, I know only the
Chinese, Kwan Yin [In Korean, Kwan Yin is Kwan Eum (bo sal)]. Kwan
Yin is that aspect of Buddha that only knows compassion. In this par-
ticular representation, there were 13 heads on top of the head of the
Buddha. The heads were demons, monsters, mis-shaped and deformed
creatures. And on top of all of them was another self, another centered,
undeformed Buddha. This is about as good an outcome as you can get
for what I’m talking about.
All tendencies are given expression. All tendencies have room in a
larger frame of reference. Here you have the Buddha coming through
all persecutory forces, all the demons, all hell. What happens to the
deformations? They’re still there, but now they become helpers. They
channel energy. The energy becomes usable for a better end. It’s not
denied. The distortions are there. The demons are there. They don’t go
away. But a larger frame of reference is able to make use of them.
If you turn the kaleidoscope a little, a variation in another key is
Jesus going through the suffering of death on the cross and resurrect-
ing. Dying and resurrecting, going through all the suffering in the
world and resurrecting. Here is the constant conjunction we are talk-
ing about in reverse. An extreme condensation of total agony and joy
or bliss.
American evangelicals say Jesus was crucified for us, conquered
sin for us. From my analytic viewpoint, Jesus’ journey expresses going
through this basic rhythm or constant conjunction in an absolute way,
totally, thoroughly, fully. That doesn’t free us from finding ways to
make room for ourselves to go through it in a relative way. Either we
go through the sequence or deny it, and if we deny it, we make a big-
ger mess. So little by little we have to teach ourselves to dose it out, to
increase the dosage to what we can stand. We go through our deaths,
many deaths, bigger and smaller deaths and rebirths. It doesn’t stop,
crises do not stop. But we begin to approach them with a better quality
of approach.
8 EIGEN IN SEOUL
* * *
On-off thinking can be applied to lots of things. Before the break
I applied it to god/no god, self/no self, attachment/no attachment.
This kind of thinking makes room for all our tendencies, our binary,
complementary tendencies and their gradations and mixtures. “Now
you see it, now you don’t, now it’s x, now it’s y” is an important way
our mind works. We tend to persecute ourselves because we can’t think
just one thing. We think of something and its opposite. That’s part of our
power, that we think X and not X, we think Y and we think Z. We have
the kind of mind that turns things around, reverses things. It’s impor-
tant to see how precious it is to have the kind of consciousness that can
null itself. An amazing capacity that works myriad ways. Rather than
straighten it out and make it behave, it’s best we learn to work with it,
develop it.
10 EIGEN IN SEOUL
To be able to see things one way and see things another way, is not
just being obsessive or indecisive or vacillating. It’s learning to chew
things, turn things around, see things from multiple perspectives. And
the more we let ourselves do that, the less nasty we may be with each
other. If I could see things from your perspective, and you could see
things from my perspective, instead of assuming that you’re wrong or
I’m wrong, if we begin to turn it around, looking at it this way and
looking at it that way, we may able to develop a deeper appreciation for
ourselves and for each other, an appreciation that instantaneous reac-
tions that see things only one way can’t develop.
We have so many languages and see things from so many perspec-
tives. Scientific languages, faith languages, psychoanalytical languages,
common sense languages, everyday languages. All of us have many
languages and we’re not sure how to reconcile them. Well, I’d like to say
right now that we don’t need to reconcile them. We need to use them.
If there weren’t faith languages, most of the art in the world wouldn’t
have happened. If there weren’t science languages, we wouldn’t be sit-
ting in this building talking to each other this way right now. My feeling
is that the human race needs to learn to stop the wars between different
capacities, all the different languages, and begin to develop them, begin
to develop each capacity as fully as possible. Last night, Jae brought me
to see traditional Korean dance. The people playing instruments and
dancing are specialists. Profound specialists. And what they specialize
in is a very developed art form, a stylized art form. They embodied
particular ways of expressing cries from the heart. We have so many
languages for cries from the heart and we need them all. Each adds a
variation, a nuance, a particular soul window. We need to develop all
of them.
I’d like to give a bit of a case from Bion. In all of the cases scattered
throughout his work—there are a lot of them—cries from the heart are
stifled, frozen, broken. Something went wrong with the cry. It wasn’t
given or allowed to be given or couldn’t reach full expression. It’s as if
the person who’s crying isn’t able to cry. The cry becomes something
of a stifled scream, frozen. The personality becomes something like a
stifled scream, the personality a kind of scream in spasm.
We’ll only be able to do a little bit in the time we have, but at least it
will be a little bit. It’s a particular case in Cogitations (1992) in a section
called “The Analyst’s Odyssey”, pages 218–221. To divert for a minute,
I want to say that one of the things Bion recommends in order for the
DAY 1 11
The patient comes to the door. That’s already a big thing for
a psychotic patient. The patient comes to see you. So that’s a plus. Not
everyone does that. Not every patient can come to the door. Not every-
one who needs therapy will seek therapy. For someone who’s psychotic
to be coming to the office by himself seeking help, is immense. I think
of a patient a Brazilian colleague referred to me some years ago. This
patient would call and leave a message on my answering machine and
I never could understand the message. I never could get the number
right. Whatever combinations of numbers I tried, I couldn’t reach him.
The message never came through. This went on for three or four months
and I started to close up. I began to feel I didn’t want to see this person.
I want to give up. I contacted the analyst in Brazil who made the referral
and told him this patient and I were having communication problems.
We couldn’t make contact. My Brazilian colleague chuckled earnestly
and said, “He wouldn’t be trying to see you if he didn’t have commu-
nication problems.” As soon as he said that, something in me softened.
The next time this person called I understood the message, called his
number and we saw each other for two years. We worked well together
before he went back to Brazil, his home. How do these things happen?
One moment, it’s like this, the next moment, it’s like that.
So, Bion’s patient comes to the door and looks away. Toward, away,
start, stop. Perhaps he looks away to avoid Bion’s eyes, physical or
mental eyes, perhaps even imaginary eyes within himself. In some
of Beatrice Beebe’s films, there are moments when the mother seeks
the baby and the baby looks away. Sometimes a mother won’t tolerate
that and goes in search of the baby’s gaze, goes after the baby’s gaze.
At such a moment, the mother seeks the baby even when the baby is
trying to tone down interaction and isn’t playing anymore. In this case,
eyes refuse eyes; eyes are unable to bear eyes. The baby wants to tone
down or stop the stimulation, take a rest, get away for a moment, shut it
out. If a mother misreads this signal or can’t take the baby turning off, if
she needs the baby to turn on and keeps going after the baby, forcing it,
the interplay can turn into a tragic happening rather than a game. The
baby can’t control the stimulus and the mother won’t give up trying,
won’t let the baby have its space, won’t let it turn off for awhile.
Winnicott (1953) speaks of a patient who, as a child, had to be her
mother’s transitional object. She had to be there in order to keep her
mother in life. The mother couldn’t allow the connection to wax and
wane or die out. The child had to always stay on to keep her mother
DAY 1 13
alive. The natural rhythm of being on and being off got wounded.
One of the things that Winnicott tried to do with this woman was give
her room to be alive and to be dead, to come back and to go away, to find
or enable the development of her natural rhythm of coming and going,
coming alive and dying out. Bion’s patient can’t fully die out and can’t
fully come alive. The flow, the rhythm, the back and forth movement
has been wounded, traumatized. Both tendencies have been trauma-
tized. He lives in a semi-aborted version of each tendency.
Bion writes, “The patient comes to the door and looks away so as to
avoid my eyes. He is dirty and unkempt; he wears gloves, but they are
not a pair.” (p. 218) So again, he wears gloves but they don’t match. It’s
yes/no, yes/no. He holds out his hand to shake but it’s limp, a shake
but not quite a shake. He goes towards and stops. He seems almost to
dissociate himself from what he does physically as well as mentally. As
if he does it but is not in it. If that’s the best he can do, at least he does it.
He came to the session. He held out his hand. He was dissociated, not
fully in it. But he wasn’t fully out of it either or he wouldn’t be there
at all.
Bion continues: “He lies down on the couch. ‘Well,’ he says, ‘I don’t
seem to have much to say.’ There is a pause of two or three minutes.
‘Funny, I seem to be feeling anxious.’ He is tense and lies so still in a
position that might, except for his tension, be described as limp.” Here
you have opposites again. He is tense. He is anxious, but limp, dis-
sociated from his feeling. It’s as if he feels it from far away, five times
removed. As if having an inkling of what he might be feeling if he felt it.
Yet he’s communicating. He is saying I feel anxious—maybe. But then
goes limp in face of it. To be tense and limp at the same time. That is
an achievement. It allows a glimpse of how we are so often composed
of opposites at the same time in our body and minds. We are never just
one thing. In the particular state Bion is describing, one is tense and
limp or slack at the same time and both tendencies are simultaneously
real.
“He examines his hand with detachment as if he were witnessing
a hallucination or some event from which he wishes to detach him-
self because he is so frightened by it.” Again, the duality. I look at my
hand as if I’m detached from it because I’m so frightened by nameless
fright. Maybe I’m frightened because I have a hand and because I can
do things with my hand, at least theoretically. I have a body and can
actually walk with my body if I let myself walk with it. I have a hand
14 EIGEN IN SEOUL
“It’s nothing” are two words often used to make pain go away.
The other day a patient told me about a remark his mother made that
stabbed his heart. Later she apologized. He brushed it off saying, “It’s
nothing.” It was beyond conception to say, “Thank you for apologizing,
for noticing. You stabbed my heart and it means a lot to me that you feel
bad about it.” Nevertheless, the acknowledgment of pain and apology
was quite a step.
The state Bion describes is at once a showing and dismissing of
pain, as if the patient is caught between two semi-frozen tendencies.
A constant conjunction: intense pain rises-subsides. Stiff-limp, tension/
no tension, both at once. The session begins/peters out. This conjunc-
tion is a beginning. In a state like this, beginning/ending is a kind of
beginning—if the patient and analyst keep coming. Bion picks up on
the patient’s sensitive pain receptor, then immediately after the patient
transmits this pain, he downplays it. The patient says, “I forget what
I said,” after saying he thinks he has something important to say and
later says, “There’s something I meant to say.” It’s a little like a Beckett
play, waiting for feeling, meaning, something important to show up. It
shows up and vanishes at the same time, or almost shows up, almost
vanishes. It may be that “traces” of what might be or was are being
communicated.
The petering out of the session is at one with its rising and its rising is
one with petering out. Living in almost land. The dual tendencies work
together, semi-showing/nulling. A lot is going on. Is it verbal, non-ver-
bal? Does this distinction fade? How would you describe this domain
that Bion is trying to tune us into? A domain of twitches, spasms, ges-
tures of the feel of tension and dying out, a sense of too much and noth-
ing. Every little bit is too much to take and being too much to take is
nulling.
Since there is so little time, I’m going to jump to some of the phrases
that the patient uses in another session that show hints of the under-
lying pain. It’s as if the patient is in a state of spasm, in a spasm that
comes and goes. Spasm state, limp. Spasm state, limp. And it comes
out in his words and his gestures and some of his phrases. Here are
a couple of phrases from another session. Patient starts talking to
Bion softly, confidentially says, “They’re cutting the grass. Of course.”
“I could hardly protest.” “The tea was awful. Really awful. Well,
there it is. No home. Tea all over the place. I simply will not stand it.”
Does that make sense? They’re cutting the grass. So cutting. A broken
16 EIGEN IN SEOUL
Question 1
[A comment was made that the tape did not pick up having to do with
analytical and intuitive thought].
Response 1
Yes. I think what you’re asking about is the tension between analytical
and intuitive thinking, and what value would analytical thinking have
in this situation. All thinking is valuable. Very little of it occurs. Einstein
said he thought once in his life. If Einstein thought once in his life, what
about the rest of us? But yes, you’re absolutely right. Bion’s emphasis
is on intuitive thinking. When he gives the exercise to free associate to
myths—all the different parts of a myth—he means this as a tool to help
build intuition. Bion’s emphasis is on intuition, not on analytic think-
ing in the session. He feels if you want to use upper story thinking you
might miss the session. You might miss the patient and you might miss
the response that the patient needs in that session in order for something
more to happen. When I saw him speak in New York in 1978, someone
asked him about the grid. In most of his books, Bion has a grid that por-
trays the growth of thought from more primordial to advanced stages.
It can be used to locate aspects of session processes. He responded to
the question by saying the grid is fun to play with between sessions,
but in sessions you’re maybe at the level of dream and myth or more
immediate transmission. In my language, impact and response. Impact
and response and imaginative elaboration, intuitive elaboration. In ses-
sions, it’s not the grid, it’s you. You don’t advance the work by playing
with upper stories of the grid in sessions, although you never know
where impact and response may lead.
Question 2
[Someone asked a question not picked up by the tape.]
18 EIGEN IN SEOUL
Response 2
Yes. My trip has been worth it. Thank you. That makes my whole trip
worth it to hear that. I read Jung before I read Freud in college. I love
Jung. I certainly have been influenced by Jung in a deep way. So was
Bion. So was Winnicott. So was Marion Milnor, all influenced by Jung.
But one thing clinically about Jung was that he had a certain contempt
for the weakness of his neurotic patients, particularly men patients,
mama’s boys. He felt he pulled himself up from neurosis, why can’t
they? He had the strength to live his own life, why didn’t they? He had
a certain contempt for dependency and weakness.
That was one of the great contributions of Winnicott, and Bion also
in his own way. Winnicott explicitly and Bion implicitly. There’s no con-
tempt for dependency by these two British analysts. The bible tells us
to care for the weak, the dependent, the left out, the disadvantaged, the
crushed, to become like a child. There’s no contempt in Winnicott for
weakness.
You give people support wherever they are whatever way you can,
given your limitation as a human being. Or to amplify Bion, support
the psyche. These authors touch a profoundly supportive attitude that
the human race keeps suppressing. An attitude that comes up and often
gets smashed. Another constant conjunction: caring for each other, sup-
port for dependency, respect for weakness, then smashing it. These are
raw materials we are working with.
Earlier, we noted that for Bion the core of a dream is an emotional
experience. The session as primitive, truncated, cut off as it is, is an
expression of an emotional experience. The whole session is like a dream
insofar as it expresses an emotional experience someway, if we can find
it. Many decades ago I experienced a therapist, Fritz Perls, who would
suggest saying before relating a dream, “This dream is my existence.”
We would say this and mean it. At the time, he worked mainly with
groups. He might have us give voice to different parts of a dream, enact
whatever appears in a dream. Anything that appears in a dream has
life. We would experience and portray the life of parts of the dream.
* * *
you take a look at them, take them home, and find some meaning in
them. One book that Joonho translated is a transcription of the sem-
inars we had together in 2007. The other, that Jae translated, is Toxic
Nourishment, a deep book about moment-to-moment crises in sessions.
I describe how many people learn to survive on emotional toxins in
order to stay alive and make use of them whatever way they can. They
have to nourish themselves with toxic elements. The book gives many
clinical portrayals.
This afternoon I’ll be focusing on a chapter in another book called
Flames from the Unconscious: Trauma, Madness and Faith that will come
out in English in May this year. There are two chapters that focus on
Winnicott’s work on aloneness and this is one of them, Chapter Two:
“Primary Aloneness”. I believe you received this chapter translated into
Korean by Joonho.
At the beginning of the chapter, I quote something from Chuang
Tzu, “When the great bird rises very high, he must have the wind under
him.” I use this quote because Winnicott, in his work on aloneness, talks
about an aloneness that has support that it doesn’t know it has. Our
sense of deep aloneness has support, has to be supported. And initially
one doesn’t even know that it has to be supported, doesn’t know that it
is supported. But if it weren’t supported it would be traumatized.
We were talking about dependency this morning. And here is a
dependency that the baby doesn’t know it has. Dependency we may
not know we have. But if there’s not support for this dependency, our
whole existence is threatened. Our whole existence may be damaged.
Winnicott (1988) writes of essential aloneness. Now that’s a strong
term. Essential aloneness. He feels that we are essentially alone. It may
be strange to hear that Winnicott says this since he’s so involved with
relationship. Yet he says at the most intimate moment of relationship we
are essentially alone. He says the baby is supported in an alone state by
a not quite cognized presence. That is, we are supported. When we are
supported well we are supported in an alone state without quite real-
izing we are getting support. That’s why if therapy goes well, patients
may feel they’ve done it all by themselves and the therapist did very
little. The patient didn’t know it was the therapist who helped. Well,
that’s a very good kind of help.
The aloneness we are touching precedes clear self-other cognition.
The mother is there helping the baby but the baby may not take in the
fact that another being distinct from him is keeping him in life. Among
the passages in which Winnicott feels pressed to convey this paradox
20 EIGEN IN SEOUL
quiet. The patient needs quiet too, his or her own quiet space. Affective
processing needs quiet time, quiet time for feelings to be processed.
Perhaps the connection between patience and patient implies the
play of rhythms between patience and pressure. Winnicott depicts a
kind of alternation or dual reality of quiet and excitement, a “double-
ness” that can be hard to sustain as one grows. Dissociations occur, con-
flicts occur, traumas occur. It is challenging to be able to give value, to
validate different sides of our nature. In a way, Winnicott feels health is
more challenging than illness and more painful, as one sustains more
tension between capacities in health than in illness. In the latter, abil-
ity to sustain tensions between capacities tends to collapse, freeze.
Here’s a quote. “Probably the greatest suffering in the human world is
the suffering of a normal or healthy or mature person.” Another quote.
“Tremendous forces are at work within the person when as in health
they have full vitality.” (1988, p. 77) As one grows, one begins to take
a little more of oneself, take a little more of life. And that exerts more
pressure on the personality. As one remains less developed, more col-
lapsed, one endures less pressure and tension from the various stimuli
that impact on one because one shuts them out more.
If rest was traumatized, it’s hard to rest. The last time I was here,
in 2007, I spoke of an incident in a treatment center for schizophrenic
children I worked in as a young man. There was a lovely young girl
who was very active in an autistic kind of way. I’m thinking of a par-
ticular moment when she climbed into a baby carriage and just lay there
on her back very peacefully, very quietly with her hands up and back,
extended on either side of her head, open and peaceful. Very rare for her.
She was always very tensely going on. Within a few minutes her worker,
her therapist came by. A likeable active young woman who was very
playful. She sees her young patient in a baby carriage lying there. And
instead of instinctively and intuitively feeling the peace of the moment,
she felt it was an opportunity to make excitement, to have play. She
starts tapping the girl’s chest, going, “Poop! Poop!” Perhaps she was
trying to animate the girl, bring her back to activity and play with her.
Instead, the little girl had a startle response, a shock. I could see or imag-
ine something of the girl’s trauma history. A restful state intruded on by
a well-meaning person. Her therapist was benevolent, wasn’t toxic. The
timing was all wrong. She didn’t get it. Her intuition didn’t include rest.
It didn’t include peace. She was more of an excitement person who likes
to play, likes activity. You could see the shock waves go through the
26 EIGEN IN SEOUL
girl’s body. From my current point of view, the girl in the baby carriage
miraculously dipped into a moment of peaceful aloneness where she
felt unconscious support that quickly got violated.
There’s an unconscious background that makes it possible to relax
into oneself. It’s an unconscious background that makes it possible for
the patient eventually, not today, not tomorrow, maybe not for 10 years,
but makes it possible for the patient to relax more and more into herself
over time, and to find herself more and more over time. To some degree,
the therapist is the unconscious background support, the unconscious
background atmosphere. We have holes in our personality. We’re trau-
matized. Our damaged being is inevitably going to affect the patient.
That’s the way it is. But we may also have a taste of this peaceful part,
this peaceful dimension, this heaven within, at least a little bit. It gets
communicated even when we talk. It’s an atmospheric thing. And once
we find it, once we locate it, once it becomes part of our body, part of
our skin, part of our tone, part of our texture, it comes out even when
we’re talking. You don’t have to be silent for silence to happen. But it’s
also good to be quiet enough to let the patient be able to hear herself
and for you to be able to hear yourself as well.
I’m going to be reading a little bit from the bottom of page 158 and
top of 159 in Human Nature. I want to bring out the idea that a person
whose support for rest has been traumatized, tries to find that support,
tries to create or recreate it, but often manages to recreate the trau-
matized support once more. We seek a better state while gravitating
towards a traumatized state.
When rest happens spontaneously for someone in early life, when
the mother can rest with the baby, not always have to be doing some-
thing, when they can both rest well together or alone or have their
alone rest supported even from a distance, have a background sup-
port, it’s not painful. It’s a relief. It’s a blessing. But if you grow up
with traumatized rest and get near a rest state, it’s painful. It’s pain-
ful to have to be vulnerable and expose yourself to a background that
will fail you, a background support that isn’t supportive but violating.
In therapy, Winnicott points out that return to dependence, trying to
open the dependence state, can be more painful than it was for a baby.
One has a trauma history embedded in one’s being that one is in dread
of contacting.
“When we watch the emotional development of an infant at these
very early stages we feel how precarious it all is. Fortunately most
DAY 1 27
for the regressed child or adult, of an environment so bad that there can
be no hope of personal existence.” (p. 159)
We do have an idea of a perfect environment. We have the idea of
heaven within, or heaven outside. The gospel of Thomas talks about
how heaven is outside us as well as inside us. We have the idea of a per-
fect self, a perfect god, a perfect X, nirvana. We have the idea of perfect
states, have hints of these states, beatific moments. That’s also real. We
have to give our heavenly sense its due as part of a constant conjunc-
tion. But against this, in addition to this, coupled with this part of the
conjunction has to be weighed the idea, just as real, “of an environ-
ment so bad that there can be no hope of a personal existence.” Heaven
and hopelessness conjoined. That’s how Winnicott ends this chapter.
He wants us to know this deep within, find in ourselves heaven and
hopelessness—if finding this is necessary for our journey. Not everyone
may need to go there.
To make room for heaven and hell. An environment can be so bad
that there is no hope of personal existence. One’s inner environment
can become so bad that hope of personal existence remains out of reach,
a consequence of “toxic nourishment”. (Eigen, 1999) There are individu-
als who have heavenly moments in hell. There are such mixtures in our
lives. Tastes of goodness that support hope of personal existence. Tastes
of goodness that persecute hope. Siamese twins, hope and hopeless-
ness. I can exist and I can’t exist. I will never exist. I am existing now.
Any questions or thoughts? Anything your spirit moves you to say
would be welcomed. We have only a short time this afternoon, but
please remember that no interruption is irrelevant.
Question 1
Earlier on we compared the dependency and plasticity of the infant to
the rigidity of the adult and talked about how sometimes the pain is
greater for the adult. For adults, trauma such as rape or war or cancer,
how that impacts adults compared to children and how do adults live
through it?
Response 1
I don’t know how it impacts adults compared to children. It impacts
both terribly. It has a terrible effect on any human being. I think one
thing in our age that’s growing more and more prevalent is what
32 EIGEN IN SEOUL
Question 2
If there was a patient who required a regression to the state of depend-
ency and he/she had the experience in which the therapist or the ana-
lyst was not able to sustain it and kind of had a double trauma and if
this kind of patient came to you to seek treatment, how would you deal
with it.
Response 2
I would deal with it day by day, moment by moment. I would deal
with it as closely as I could, as Bion advises without expectation, desire
or understanding and try to create open support and space as best as
possible and see what happens and take it a step at a time, try to be
helpful.
If I’m lucky, very, very lucky, at some moments in some days, a good
spirit, if an evil spirit isn’t too strong for a few moments, a good spirit
will prevail. In Chinese, this good spirit is personified by a Buddha
called Kwan Yin. I am told that in Korean she is Kwan Eum (bo sal). I am
mainly familiar with Kwan Yin in writings about Chinese Buddhism.
34 EIGEN IN SEOUL
Last time I was here (2007) a woman gave me a good luck charm with
Kwan Eum on it and a Korean inscription, which I carry with me. So if
I have a good day and the Kwan Yin element is active, then I hope good
will towards the patient is part of the atmosphere, without imposing
more than that.
Also, what you do depends on your personality. I’ve heard stories
about the failure of dependency in analysis. In the beginning of my
book Psychic Deadness (1996), I write of an anorexic patient whose thera-
pist, very highly respected, fostered dependency in his patient. As she
got more and more dependent on him, she became more and more ano-
rexic. When he realized that she was sicker than he thought (these were
the words she used), he got rid of her as a patient. I’m one of the people
she found her way to until she was able to reestablish herself again. The
failure of trust, the failure of dependence by the therapist who induces
and then withdraws from it, is devastating. It’s better to remain in a
more balanced state and not do that to a person. I’ve seen something
like this happen many times. Winnicott reports suicides in his practice
as a result of traumatized dependence. It’s dangerous business, not to
be taken lightly. At the same time, it’s important to recognize and vali-
date these tendencies when they come up. I wouldn’t try to foster them
and I wouldn’t try to make them go away. I try to stick with what comes
up as best as I can and work with the response the person has and the
response that I have. Often this takes the form of mutual traumatization
and mutual recovery from the traumatization, over and over.
I wrote about something similar in a chapter called ‘Smiles and
Screams’ in Emotional Storm (2005). Again, a case where dependency
was induced, then crushed. You can find this book in the institute
library, if you want to take a look.
The question you are asking is bottomless because there are so many
ways to traumatize a patient. Our job is not to create a trauma-free envi-
ronment, which is impossible. That’s not going to happen. Our job is
to make space for these traumas in a way that helps recovery along.
You create a better outcome through interactions over a long period
of time.
I’m going to jump back to Winnicott (1988; Eigen, 2009,
Chapters One and Two) on aloneness and dependence. Earlier I spoke of
the baby’s sense of unknown boundlessness. An experience of unknown
boundless support without “knowing” it, without cognizing it. A sense
of unknown boundlessness implicitly present. Winnicott writes that the
DAY 1 35
Day 2
37
38 EIGEN IN SEOUL
In the case I present here, the man I call Harry feels that he kills
people when he speaks, yet nothing seems to change. People don’t die.
People don’t even seem to notice. Harry and the feeling of not having
an impact will be our starting point: words don’t matter, feelings don’t
matter.
First, a little digression. One of my favorite piano players is Erroll
Garner. He could play any song in any key. He didn’t take lessons.
Rather, he started taking lessons as a child but his teacher discontin-
ued them when she discovered he wasn’t reading the music but played
what she gave him by ear. He listened to her play the piece, then he
played it. He never learned to read music and played by ear all his life.
An inner ear. A music soul ear. He would drive bass players crazy by
changing keys without notice when the spirit moved him. It was a chal-
lenge to keep up with him, almost a game. The bass would have to hear
it, find it. So I’m hoping I don’t drive Joonho [the Korean translator] too
crazy today or make him feel hopeless about my change of keys as we
go along.
We’ll begin with Harry speaking. He says, “When I speak I am con-
scious of words taking aim. I’m aiming at an enemy. I can’t tell you how
much this hurts. When I was a child, I stuttered and I knew why. I knew
my words were pellets to sink into others and explode or poison. Once
inside the other, they knew what to do. A wounding intent was buried
in their essence.” (p. 35)
Harry’s intention to wound others was buried in words. Words car-
ried a wounding intention. When I was a child, there was a saying,
“Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.”
As you know, that is a lie. A big lie, because words do hurt. Words hurt
most of all. Freud recognized this. In his first book, Studies on Hysteria
(Breuer and Freud, 1893–1895) he noted that neurotic language, eve-
ryday speech and poetic language have something in common. Meta-
phor—poetic metaphor or everyday metaphor or neurotic metaphor—is
more than metaphor. It carries reality. It is real. Freud was intrigued by
phrases for psychic wounds. A word or look can be felt as “a stab in the
heart” or “a blow to the face.” These are common expressions in English:
“a blow to the face”, “a stab to the heart.” They express real states, pain-
ful realities. In these cases, metaphors express the way life feels.
How frustrating it was for Harry who actually wanted to wound peo-
ple with his words but couldn’t see the results of his actions. Yet his wish
underlines an important truth: words do hurt. Words wound. Words
DAY 2 39
knives. I kill, therefore I am. I kill, therefore I’m not. It’s obvious but
people don’t see it. If they see it, they gloss over it and pretend it’s not
happening. They go on as if they are not killing each other. But murder
is the medium of words and, deep inside, murder makes life real. Pain
is a kind of compass. I locate myself via pain. I am where pain is. When
I kill you, I am where you are. It is a hidden form of travel, from pain to
pain, psyche to psyche. You can locate yourself in anyone anywhere via
pain travel. Murder is a kind of universal vehicle”.
“There is a devil in words. Evil slips into words, drives words.
A devil of persuasive force frames the way words work on belief. There
are words that lead to physical murder, words that maim, deform, stifle.
Murder is proof of existence. If we can be murdered, that means we are
here. If we were murdered, we are here. If we were murdered, we were
here.” (Feeling Matters, p. 36.)
Harry here links words to the devil. There is “a devil of persuasive
force”, the persuasive force of words, the persuasive quality of
words. Words aren’t just used to convey information. They’re used to
propagandize, to persuade, to convince the other of my view. Words are
used to get you to believe me, to believe in me, to have belief. Words
are used to get you to want me or my belief. Words are used as a motive
force for personal and social persuasion. Believe what I say. Believe in
me. Words are associated with belief systems. And so words are asso-
ciated with war. My belief and your belief often end up being differ-
ent. A lot of people believe the same thing and a lot of other people
believe a different same thing. Our belief systems are molded by words
often linked to disaster. Words and disaster, an ancient link. I think of
two people who are able to get along with each other as long as they
don’t talk to each other. As soon as they start talking to each other, they
can’t get along. In such a case, they can do things together, enjoy things
together as long as they don’t talk.
“Harry’s words shot through me but do not lodge. I see and feel
what he is saying but do not find him. He communicates an agony of
truth, a truth I know. His face hides torment. He tries to show what is
gnarled and narrow as words. But they do not pass through his face.
They do not gather up a lot of body. The words come from truth but hit
the air and dissolve. I reach for their impact but am left straining. His
words carry a most intense communication, murder itself, but I am left
wondering, where did their feeling go? I hear intensity, taste it, wait
for it.” (Feeling Matters, p. 36.)
44 EIGEN IN SEOUL
I believe Harry. I believe his words. I know them, feel they are
real. I know them from my own experience. I’m a word killer too.
So I know what he’s talking about. His words carry the most intense
communication, murder itself. But I’m left wondering “Where did the
feeling go?” Now that’s a feeling too. That’s a feeling I’m having. Where
did the feeling go? That’s an important part of the session. The fact is
that I don’t feel the feeling. That’s real. To not feel the feeling is a real
feeling. I feel the truth of what Harry is saying but not the feeling of
it—and that is a real state, a feeling state. Where’s the feeling? At the
moment the feeling is “in” its absence, the expectant taste of intensity,
waiting.
“Harry pulls the string on his speech.” Is that translatable? In America
there’s a toy called a yoyo, kind of two circular pieces of wood or metal
joined in the middle, with a string wound around the little center link.
By varying the tension in the string, you let the circular piece down,
then pull it up, down and up repeatedly. Harry pulls the string on his
speech. He puts himself, everything into words, then stops in mid-air,
undoes the impact. A string is pulled on the feeling of impact. Another
kind of constant conjunction. Something starts, something stops, starts,
stops. Stops in mid-air and undoes itself. Doing, undoing, reverse
systems.
In the Schreber case, Freud writes of subject-object and affect reversal.
Yesterday we spoke about reversible figures, reversible states: God—no
god, self—no self, attachment—no attachment. In the Schreber case,
Freud talks about reversible affect. Love reverses into hate. Hate reverses
into love. He talked about substitution: one affect stands for its oppo-
site. Love substitutes for hate, hate for love. Love signifies hate, hate
signifies love. He also talked about reversal of pronouns, e.g., “I” and
“you”. I love you. You hate me. I hate you. You love me. That is, I may
experience my love for you as you hating me. The affect forms a link and
pronouns keep reversing. This is significant in terms of history. There
are basic affects throughout history but players keep changing. Now
x country slaughters y country, this group slaughters that group. The
affect is constant: murder, hate, whatever variant. Players keep chang-
ing. Links are the same. The same hate or love links. But the “I” and
“you”, who does what to whom changes. It’s as if history doesn’t care
who does what to whom as long as it keeps getting done. As long as
players keep doing it, it doesn’t matter which mops up the other, as long
as the mopping continues. Links remain constant, pronouns reverse,
DAY 2 45
change. Now I’m doing this to you, now you are doing the same thing
or a reversal to me.
Harry’s words do not lodge in me or even get to me because they
reverse in mid air and return to him. A turning back to the self. You throw
your affect out and it comes back to you, turning against yourself. Your
own potential feeling turns against you. Reversal and turning against
the self. I wonder if this kind of inner working isn’t reflected in movies
in which one’s creations turn into monsters that attack one. Another
conjecture: an etymological link between symbols and throwing, usu-
ally to throw meanings together. But when you throw something affec-
tive winds can take over. Affective underpinnings of meaning bounce
back, lash around. The wind of your feelings gets blown in your face.
Harry learned to protect others from his killer words but that didn’t
stop him from trying to reach the other. One of my fantasies was
Harry had a mother who couldn’t take his murderous feelings. She
couldn’t bear them and they kept bouncing off her, returning back to
him. A partial failure of projective identification. We project into others.
We try to put into others states we can’t handle and hope the other person
handles them better. The baby puts destructive feelings into the mother
(as well as the reverse). Feelings that might destroy or damage one’s
psychic being are transmitted to the other. In a Bion scenario, these feel-
ings enter the mother’s reverie. She intuitively mulls them over, instinc-
tively works them over, modifies them, and feeds back a better feeling
to the baby. Feeling states that are too much for the baby are modulated
by the mother. She takes the edge off destructive feelings.
This is a ground of empathy all life long—to experience feelings met
and modulated, fed back in better, more usable, less destructive form.
Bion asks what happens if this projection is refused and the full brunt
of destructive fears are sent back in raw form to the baby, perhaps com-
pounded with the mother’s fears and aggression. To throw back the
other’s feelings may be an index of incapacity. Perhaps the mother can’t
take it or doesn’t know what to do with it, compounded by her own
basic problems with destructive urges. The baby, then, is stuck with his
annihilation anxieties un-assuaged.
This is a problem for all of us, insofar as humanity is walled off,
defensive in terms of its own feeling states. If we can’t let each other’s
feelings in, the latter won’t be processed or processed well. It may be
that humanity as a whole suffers from psychic indigestion, affective
indigestion. The capacity to work well with feelings that besiege us
46 EIGEN IN SEOUL
* * *
Any thoughts, questions, responses you’d like to start off with?
DAY 2 49
Question 1
Yesterday you talked about myths and how we can train ourselves to
find the myth that suits this patient or suits this session. I’d like to know
more about what you mean by myth.
Response 1
Stories like the Tower of Babel, the Garden of Eden, or any of the
ancient Egyptian or Hindu myths and legends, any of the sequences
of mythology in which gods and people interact and do things
together. I mean myths in a traditional sense. The way Carl Jung or
Joseph Campbell might mean myth. Both of these workers felt that
myths guide and organize aspects of social and personal experience and
that it’s worthwhile to try to get a sense of what sorts of myth express
and structure existence. Do you have any idea of what myths might
apply to this chapter and to me or to Harry? Or is it too early to tell?
Question 2
We spoke about putting feelings into words, a discussion that was
very helpful to me. A middle-aged patient of mine recently called
some of her feelings lions and spoke of the queen rather than king of
beasts. She found a way of representing anger and angst, not easy for
a Korean woman of her time. So yes, feelings can be put into words.
But I also want to say that when I was listening to you speak, before
Joonho interpreted in Korean, I could feel the feeling your were under-
lining from the tone of your voice. I felt the affect although I didn’t
understand the words.
Response 2
Thank you. Yes, we respond on so many levels. It’s good to begin to
think inclusively with a sense of how all our capacities contribute. What
a beautiful instrument we’ve been given. So much can go wrong, still
there is beauty. Lions of anger and angst, beauty and power. To be a
queen is to contact and express one’s feeling life. You, your patient gives
new meaning to being a queen.
50 EIGEN IN SEOUL
Question 3
First, I was thinking about the “persuasive devil” and that the thera-
pist can become a persuasive devil. Second, I wonder if becoming very
drowsy in a session can be a signal of toxic nourishment.
Response 3
It can be. It can be a sign of almost anything. Any state can mean many
things. So it could definitely be a sign of toxic nourishment. It could be
a form of self-protection. At certain moments, too, you might be doing
something a patient can’t do. Yesterday I spoke about being quiet and
relaxed, the importance of quiet time. Some people can’t sleep or sleep
well. There’s a Russian joke about a communist meeting. The word
is out that a spy is at the meeting. One speaker talks on and on, then
another goes on and on. One after another speaker goes on and on.
All of a sudden, the Russian secret police swoop down on one man in
the big audience. The man asks, “How did you know it was me?” And
a Russian secret policeman says, “The enemy never sleeps.” Everyone
in the audience was drowsing. Sometimes sleeping is a benevolent thing
too. It’s hard to know how to evaluate your drowsing. If you drowse,
maybe a reverie or image or vision might come. Don’t be too quick to
jump to conclusions. Wait on it, taste it, treat it with respect. I once had
a class with a teacher, Phyllis Meadow, who talked about falling asleep
with a patient. She talked about getting drowsy during sessions and
felt it a sign of intimacy in the case she was discussing. She spoke of
patients who, after working years in therapy, were able to sleep during
sessions with her. She and her patient were able to sleep together for
a period. In this case, it could be emergence of an important capacity.
They could let go of consciousness together, an act of trust. So much
of our consciousness is built on a sense of vigilance. One is vigilant
of others, what are they going to do to me? Letting your guard down
can be an act of trust. I learned from Dr. Meadow not to prematurely
conclude that your sleep is necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes your
drowsiness gives the other person room. To be too awake in a session
might not leave enough room for the other person. Sometimes drow-
siness expresses benevolence. I understood what Dr. Meadow meant
because she’s a very talkative, vital, vibrant person. She could take up
too much room very easily. So if the only way she could find to give the
other room is to sleep, it was, at least partly, a benevolent gesture.
DAY 2 51
But yes—I think your point is important. Getting drowsy can signal
toxic nourishment in the air. You and the patient can get a lot from how
you both respond to drowsiness. Does the patient throw cold water on
you? “Don’t you dare drowse in sessions!” Does she—and this does
happen—feel relief, less pressure, more accepting of states? You respond
to the situation as it happens.
I’m thinking of certain moments I start to doze because the patient’s
tone of voice is soothing, like a mommy. They become the lullaby mommy
and I the baby. There are others who scare me so much I don’t dare doze.
I have to “watch out” all the time. You have to see how it unfolds.
Question 4
In Korea, there’s also a joke that when one dozes off and wakes up one
had a meeting with Confucius. I wanted to respond to your question
about what kind of myth fits this case, Harry. I thought of Cain and
Abel. And how God responded to one and didn’t respond to the other
and how Cain must have felt helpless and how that was acted out in an
act of murder.
Response 4
That is a good association, a beautiful instance of what Bion meant by
finding a myth that is real for you in this moment and in this case. There
could be five different people with five different myths that are real for
them. And what I hear you say feels real. A real myth for Harry and
real for you. Bion’s suggestion was to sit down with the myth and write
your own associations to it, every part of the myth, so that through the
myth you feel the impact of your own life, the realness of your own life.
Sensitizing yourself to your own life sensitizes you to sessions, to your
patient’s life. Cain and Abel. Can that mean the patient and therapist
are brothers, one favored by the Powers, one not? Who kills who? Is it
a drama going on inside of each of us, patient and therapist? Does who
kills who keep changing?
Question 5
I’m curious about the reason why you asked Harry, “Aren’t there other
feelings, joy and beauty?” When you questioned Harry it seemed that
52 EIGEN IN SEOUL
Response 5
Those two probably played a role. It’s a weakness in my nature, perhaps
a frivolous thing in my nature. Also, it’s part of my nature to wonder
what his world was like. Was there warmth? What was outside the pre-
sented frame of reference? What wasn’t being said? Perhaps I did it for
my own curiosity, my own interest. I do a lot of inappropriate things.
If the patient is angry or wounded, hopefully we somehow keep work-
ing together, give each other another chance and another. It really is a
struggle to learn to tolerate one another and states we produce in being
together. Thanks for pointing to a difficulty I was having.
Question 6
You also expressed that you are a murderer, a word murderer, a word
killer. I wanted to know if that similarity helped you understand the
patient better.
Response 6
I think so. That’s an important point. You may empathically experi-
ence the life of the other even if the other person can’t fully experience
it. A person comes in feeling the pain of his/her life but to a certain
degree isn’t able to link up with it. To really get in contact with the full
tragic dimension of one’s existence is quite a step. And I do think that
feeling in contact with the tragic dimension of one’s own existence is
helpful.
I think of a supervision I wrote about in Psychic Deadness, the chapter
on “Being Too Good.” The supervisee was a lovely woman, unlike me,
beautifully dressed, elegant. Perfect clothes, perfect makeup. She was a
creative woman, a good therapist. She consulted me about a patient who
was becoming more and more suicidal. The patient felt horrible about
herself. She felt ugly, a mess. She couldn’t do anything right with her
life, wrecked by self-hate. The contrast with the perfection of the therapist
DAY 2 53
Maybe part of the mix is Bion knew dread and her patient knew dread
and that she, my supervisee, managed to immunize herself to dread, at
least partly, too well for this patient. I think my supervisee hoped that
she could push her patient into health, that the latter would naturally
move into health. I tried to help my supervisee give the patient a little
more room to express how bad things were for her without trying to
make her more healthy. And tried to somehow let my supervisee know
she didn’t have to be so “right”. She’s not always right. Listen to the
patient’s hardships. Try to tolerate them a little more. My supervisee
recoiled from this at first. She could not find commonalities between
herself and her patient. She was not that bad, never was, never could
be. Yet she could begin to sense that her relatively “flawless” stance
was aggravating things. She began to sense that letting down even
a little might take some of the edge off the situation. And that’s what
happened.
Question 1
I want to thank you because I’m also a killer, a murderer. And I want to
thank you for surviving these feelings. I feel that I am weak and I’m not
so good at surviving them. I had negative thoughts and feelings about
that but now I don’t feel so bad about it.
Response 1
Thank you. We’re all sensitive, very sensitive. We are sensitive creatures
and we are hardened, thick skinned and insensitive creatures. We’re
very soft, we’re very cruel. That’s part of why we’re here today. That’s
part of why the human race has survived. It has both sides. And we
don’t know what to do with these capacities. We really don’t know what
to do with ourselves. Conditions keep changing. And we have to see if
our capacities can get the feel of the new conditions and work with them
DAY 2 55
Question 2
You mentioned that words create feelings and I wonder what that
means. Does it mean that it is creating something from nothing? I have
the feeling that originally there is something and it is like discovering
a feeling through the words, not making something that was not there.
Words are like vehicles, tools that we can use to discover these things.
Can you give a little bit more clarification about what you mean when
you say words create feelings?
Response 2
I think that words do many things and feelings also. The model that you
propose is valid but not exclusive. You’re trying to describe a real proc-
ess when you say that words help discover what’s there. But it’s also
true that words can create feelings. For example, passages in Rainer
Maria Rilke’s Duino Elegies. You will see a whole new sensibility getting
created as the poet speaks, an evolution of sensibility happening right
before your eyes. And it will take you with it and open you to a world
of sensibility that wasn’t there before the poet spoke.
On another level of evolution, there’s Winnicott’s concept of the use
of object. Winnicott talks about the importance of the object surviving
our destruction of it or our fantasy of destruction. To put it another way,
Winnicott touches the radical importance for development of the other
surviving our feelings. Surviving our feelings well enough, with a mod-
icum of integrity. He touches a pre-verbal world when a new feeling or
possibility of feeling swims into being. He asks whether a baby feels he
creates the feeling or discovers it? And suggests such a question should
not be asked. It’s unanswerable and to press for premature “solution”
violates its paradoxical nature. Creation of something new or discover-
ing what’s there? It’s somehow both, like a Moebius strip, in ways that
we don’t have words for or don’t understand. Winnicott raises the issue
and leaves it as a question. Can we sustain that question? If we can
sustain that question and live in paradox, a new sensibility begins to
evolve—a new way of approaching feelings.
56 EIGEN IN SEOUL
“Some babies specialise in thinking, and reach out for words; others
specialise in auditory, visual, or other sensuous experience, and in
memories and creative imagination of a hallucinatory kind, and
these latter may not reach out for words. There is no question of
58 EIGEN IN SEOUL
If you know you don’t know, humility grows, and doors open to
use yourself in exploratory ways. If you give an interpretation and the
patient says, “You’re talking about yourself.”, maybe you’ll say, “Well,
I don’t know. I’ll take that into account. I’ll wonder if I’m talking about
myself. And maybe you, also, can wonder whether there’s anything in
what I said that connects with anything for you too or whether I missed
the mark completely.” If we know we don’t know what the ultimate
reality of the session is, we are freer to use imagination, to hallucinate,
feel, sense and share without putting out what we share as gospel.
Instead of feeling this is the truth you must believe in, take what I say as
something that came to me. To me it looks like it may have some value.
Check it out? How does it feel to you? The “inaccessibility” of O in itself
opens different levels of give and take about O-impacts.
The two Bion expressions I have in mind are T in O and F in O.
By T in O, Bion (1984; 1972) suggests that transformations (T) go on in
O although we are unaware of them. As in the Lankavatara Sutra, word-
less transformations go on in reality—our reality, transformations that
affect us, create, recreate us, possibly deform us. We may have intima-
tions, develop convictions and beliefs, but do not know what is happen-
ing or how. I think of a physicist’s remark, perhaps Eddington about the
universe: “Something unknown is doing we don’t know what.” A remark
very compatible with Bion’s sense of unknown O-work, O-impacts.
Transformations go on and we don’t know what they are. We may have
hints, inklings, intuitions, but we can’t be sure. In meditation, for exam-
ple, there can be states we sense but they work with speed and subtlety
we can’t keep up with. They affect us but we do not know exactly how
they work or what they are. We just let them do their work.
We didn’t always know about electromagnetic fields in the universe.
But now we know they exist and likely impact us, although we don’t
necessarily know how. In a loosely similar fashion, we may not be able
to say what O is and what O-transformations are happening at a given
time. Can we say what O-transformations are going on right now? But
we can be pretty sure something is going on and we are affected, we are
undergoing elusive, intangible processes. O-work is changing us as we
speak and listen. Transformations in O are working right now, affecting
us in unknown ways.
If I were psychotic—I mean, more fully than I am—I would think
I knew what those transformations were. I would know the truth
about them. There would be little room for questioning, appraisal,
60 EIGEN IN SEOUL
There are points in infancy when the mother may act like
a know-it-all and the baby sees through her (Elkin, 1972). The mother
thinks she knows what the baby is feeling but the baby knows she is
wrong. If a mother knows everything or thinks she knows everything
about the baby and makes a big mistake, the baby can feel the big mis-
take. It could be something little. The mother thinks the baby is wet, but
the baby is cold. Normally, a mother would correct herself, try some-
thing different, discover the trouble if she can. But there are mothers
or states of mothering in which a know-it-all attitude makes search-
ing for what is wrong difficult. Mother is always right. This has spe-
cial importance when it comes to interpreting feelings. If the mother is
always right about what the baby feels, the baby’s feelings have little
room for expression and recognition.
The baby can see the mother isn’t always right, even if it’s something
little like, “Oh-oh, she thinks I’m wet when I’m cold or hungry when
I’m irritated. She acts like she knows, but she doesn’t know what I’m
feeling.” If the situation is lasting and intensity builds, the baby is in
a quandary. A gap grows between the baby’s perception of reality—
physical or psychic—and the mother’s, e.g., she wants me to be happy,
but I’m angry; or she wants me to be confident, but I’m afraid.
“I know what you’re feeling or what you should be feeling,” is a com-
mon attitude. Some analysts are like that. When I was growing up in the
analytic world, analysts were fighting about the right interpretation. The
idea of a right interpretation was something of a fad, an ideal, perhaps
an idealization of psychoanalysis. “There is a right interpretation—and
this is what it is! Look at the patient’s associations and you will see it.”
This went on for years. I think it held back the development of psycho-
analysis for decades. The omniscient analyst. A bit of psychoanalytic
megalomania.
Likewise the omniscient mother, a bit of maternal madness, perhaps
even normal maternal madness. If omniscience is too unyielding
and persistent, it puts the baby in a quandary—it puts the baby’s
own reality into question. Here I am the baby. If I stay with my own
perception, I have no contact with the mother. I see she’s wrong about
my feeling. She doesn’t get it. She’s not in contact with me. I’m the baby.
She’s supposed to be taking care of me. How can I take care of her?
Yet I have to take care of her, humor her, make her feel she’s right about
me. Well, I can scream. I’ll scream and maybe she’ll get the idea that
something’s wrong.
64 EIGEN IN SEOUL
The baby will try different things. But what’s at stake is the baby’s
own sense of reality. If the mother keeps coming on as a know-it-all
mother, the baby is going to harden. It’s hard to forgive a know-it-all.
The omniscient mother who stonewalls, has to be right about every-
thing, leads to self-hardening. It’s harder to forgive a know-it-all than
someone who admits fault and is willing to interact on a more personal
level.
It’s important to have a mother you can forgive. Someone who tries,
does her best without overly hardening around a pretense of omnis-
cience. A mother who makes mistakes and knows it, lets in human
fallibility, yet has a basic good feeling, a mixture of confidence and
humility, fallible responsiveness that cares, open to editing. A give and
take mother a baby can forgive, part of an affective background that
enables mutuality to grow.
F in O is a psychoanalytic attitude, being without memory, expecta-
tion, desire or understanding. A radical openness in face of the ulti-
mate reality of the patient even if one doesn’t have certainty about what
the ultimate reality of a session may be. Yet caring for the reality of
the session and respect for the truth of it, staying open to impact and
response, trying to digest the process—creates and is part of a faithful
atmosphere, fidelity to the reality at hand. An attempt to do justice to
the reality at hand.
I gave an example of a smallish but consequential failure of faith
yesterday when I spoke of the Brazilian patient who kept calling and
I couldn’t reach him because I was unable to understand his message.
The Brazilian therapist who referred him refreshed my faith, brought
faith back to life, woke me, and then communication occurred. Faith in
a particular moment depends on a lot of factors and we can help each
other. We can support each other. The importance of a real psychotherapy
community is to support each other in face of the difficult process in
which we are engaged, a process which necessarily involves crises of
faith.
Another biblical phrase that has been with me many decades is from
Psalm 23, “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I will fear no evil for You are with me.” You are with me through the
shadow of death.
Another moment of F in O. You can find examples of F in O through-
out the spectrum of spiritual experience, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim,
Hindu, Jewish and outside of the organized disciplines as well, in
DAY 2 65
* * *
Anything you’d like me to try to respond to?
Question 1
I was a little bit nervous to ask the question but the question is about
faith in something unknowable, something that cannot be known. And
it reminds me of swimming in the river, in the flowing water when
you first learn how to swim. You don’t really know this water. You
don’t know it well. The reason why I’m studying this field is because
I want to know a little bit more about this unknowable thing and take
more responsibility. And when Bion says have faith in this unknow-
able thing it gave some relief and it kind of lessened this responsibil-
ity. I know that in this flowing water if I just surrender myself, I won’t
66 EIGEN IN SEOUL
drown. But I don’t know how to swim. So I want to ask you once again,
is it okay to have faith in this unknowable thing?
Response 1
Yes. What choice is there? Become cynical? Become hardened? Become
nasty? Become brutish? Become too sensitive? Become what? So, yes,
one has to develop a relationship with it. One has to develop one’s own
relationship with it. For Buddha, it took many, many lifetimes. Buddha
said it took millions of lifetimes with millions of teachers to become
what we call Buddha. We only have this tiny little lifetime but we can
begin to develop our own relationship to “this unknowable thing”. Our
own approach. It wants us to approach it in our own way. And little
by little dose it out. Don’t go too far, too quick. Give yourself time. Let
yourself wait. Things happen. They happen all by themselves. If you
are an active learner and not much of a “waiter”, that’s fine too. All
paths are real. All paths lead somewhere.
When I was young, I read everything. As I got older, I read less
and concentrated more on the little I read. I used to tell my students,
“Don’t try to read everything about psychoanalysis. Find something
you like and stick with that.” I get something from Winnicott and I get
something from Bion. Maybe you’ll get something from Kernberg.
I don’t know. Find what speaks to you, not your neighbor, not your
teacher, but you. Find what has meaning for you. After you finish your
institute program, you can pretty much do what you want. When you
are in a program, you may have to learn stuff that doesn’t fit you. But
you need to learn it to finish the program. You learn it and it’ll come in
handy at some point. But the real work comes after you finish, when
you go your own way, find your own way. You don’t have to read
what doesn’t work for you. Read what you love, what most gives you
something.
Question 2
During the break, I experienced a kind of shock, a surprise that is
a recurring event. As I was coming out of the toilet, I ran into you.
And you were also coming out of it. I felt a kind of disbelief that you
used the toilet. I mean, everyone does—but there you were actu-
ally. This happened before. There was a teacher I greatly respected,
DAY 2 67
looked up to, and ran into her in the women’s room, and was also
surprised.
Response 2
My whole lifetime work is devoted to doing things from the bottom
up, rather than the top down. I spend a lot of time in the bathroom and
basement.
Question 3
In the morning session we talked about reality, words, different ways
of expressing ourselves, like poems and drawings. I felt like an astro-
naut floating among these different elements. We could be walking along
yet be an astronaut in psychic space. As I was thinking these things, my
mind went blank. I got into some kind wondering how do we know that
we are walking when we walk, how do we know that we don’t know.
I just had lunch and am afraid these thoughts will spin me into sleep …
Response 3
Well, Buddha recommended not eating anything after noon. He went
begging with his bowl in the morning, took his breakfast/lunch, then
began to meditate or speak. For many years, Buddhist monasteries
tried to emulate his teaching and not eat after lunch. For many monks
this has not proven practical. Perhaps some meditators found the
best Samadhi would occur if you haven’t eaten after lunch, and oth-
ers found otherwise. Every group has its particular rules and findings.
My best meditation time usually is in the morning after I wake up.
That’s my particular quirk.
This question “how do I know I’m here?” or “how do I know I’m
walking?” or “how do I know I’m awake?” has exercised some of the
greatest minds in human culture. Lao Tzu: last night I dreamt I was
a bird flying in the sky; how do I know that now I’m not a bird dreaming
it is a man sitting and walking? Or Descartes: what evidence can I give
myself that I don’t doubt my existence? So many paths, so many
manifestations of this question.
This morning I was walking down a street and thinking about
something. All of a sudden I sees the hills around the city—oh my God,
68 EIGEN IN SEOUL
these paintings had tigers in them. I can make up things about what
these tigers are or represent. Tigers are lots of things for human beings
and for themselves. The part that I want to make up now, following
Bion, is that the tiger is O. And we are O. We are bits of O. Everyone
of us is O-ing in his or her own way. So if we’re all tigers, we have to be
very, very careful.
Question 4
I had a dream in which I was an embryo, yet the embryo was kind of
like an infant. And in the dream, you gave me a hug. After the dream
I thought of a yin-yang image, but in the middle part was a certain
darkness so the two sides weren’t fully connected. I sensed this had
something to do with a trauma and had a lot of different complicated
feelings about it. Yet I also felt some relief because the two sides were
not fully connected and the dark space between.
Yesterday when we were talking about trauma, I was very moved
and surprised to realize that maybe it is not somebody’s fault. But today
when we talked about the mother who couldn’t be forgiven, I was sud-
denly devastated and hit a wall. I thought maybe now I’m ready to for-
give. I feel frustrated. I just finished one book in front of me and there
are a million more books. I feel a kind of frustration and am wondering
if this is what the patient feels in therapy. No matter what comes up,
there’s more to come up.
Response 4
A very full sequence—we could spend months on it if we were in ther-
apy together. There is no ending. The real question in therapy is will
there be a beginning?
You made some possible speculations about the darkness in the mid-
dle. It disconnects. Bion posits a contact barrier between conscious-
unconscious. The barrier is necessary for different systems to do their
work. If there were no barrier at all, they wouldn’t be able to do the
work they need to do. The dark between, too, might be a place of safety,
of rest, a place to get ready for the next step. Sometimes scary but here
more a relief.
What I meant by the mother who can’t be forgiven applies to the
therapist who can’t be forgiven. It’s the ‘know it all’ attitude that can’t
70 EIGEN IN SEOUL
tell me how you managed that?” In his seminar in New York in 1978 he
added that it would be a real service to the scientific community to be
able to learn how a person manages not to change, given the changing
nature of things.
I may be getting a little off the point now but I’m thinking of an old
term, popular when I was younger—“making the oedipal”. The term
referred to the notion that it was our job to make the oedipal, get to the
oedipal, reach and work with oedipal problems. As my professional
life went on, I began hearing another term from the Kleinians, “making
the depressive position.” The Freudians tell us to make the oedipal, the
Kleinians, in parallel fashion, to make the depressive position. If you
don’t make the oedipal, you’re not fully developed. You’re immature,
anal, oral. If you don’t make the depressive position, you’re paranoid,
schizoid. You split and project and are likely morally inferior. If you
make the depressive, you see others as whole people and take respon-
sibility for your aggressive tendencies. To be a moral being, at least
potentially, you’ve got to reach oedipal and depressive phases.
Bion was adamant about not making paranoid-schizoid operations
second class citizens. They’re co-equal to depressive operations. Tear-
ing apart, putting together are both important, work together. You can’t
have one without the other. Bion didn’t support the depressive position
as a place to land on. There are hints in his work he felt suffocated by
a depressive position that went on too long or saturated psychic space.
Depressive “wholeness” can tend towards false integrity and needs cut-
ting through. You think you’re more whole than you really are, more of
a person than you are and foist off your image on others, demand oth-
ers see you as more whole too. You need paranoid-schizoid aspects of
yourself to tear down false wholes, domains of pseudo witness.
Bion favors starting from scratch, breaking down narratives, observ-
ing how narrative integrity is a kind of belief, an attempt to provide
coherent organization in face of messy psychic realities. Is it possible to
start from scratch, be naked without our wholeness, without narrative
crutches, a radical naked openness?
Bion was not simply valorizing the depressive position. The lat-
ter can function as a noose strangling personality. We need to split it,
break it into pieces to see fresh possibilities. Depressive organization
can lead to phoniness the paranoid psychotic sees through. Not that
it’s good to simply be psychotic or paranoid-schizoid, but the latter
has its functions in psychic growth. For one thing, to tear down false
72 EIGEN IN SEOUL
unities. If you want your hair to stand on end, read the last paragraph
of Memoir of the Future, a good starting point for Bion. Over and over,
back to square one or zero, Job-like sitting with nothing to hold on to as
a point of departure. In a way, a state in which the starting point is the
whole journey.
Here is a quote from the end of Bion’s (1991) A Memoir of the Future:
You build on what they can do. You don’t shame them if it seems little.
A little goes a long way at deep levels of work.
There are many branches on the tree of growth. One branch says “go
from strength to strength.” Another says “go from strength to strength
but don’t leave out the weakness.” Don’t leave out the needy parts of
the psyche, of society. Winnicott’s psychology places an emphasis on
need. Sometimes he uses the word “need” in fairly unique ways. There
are needs one doesn’t know one has. Emmanuel Ghent, a New York
analyst, gives an example. His patient was lying on the couch and
Dr. Ghent put a blanket on her. And she started crying. All of a sud-
den she realized she had been cold and didn’t know it, that she had a
need for warmth and didn’t know it until the warming moment. At that
moment awareness of a need she didn’t know she had was created by
the actual fulfillment of it. Fulfillment of a need she didn’t know she
had until it happened quickened realization that she needed warmth.
Everyone in this room is strong. Every single person in this room has
strength or you wouldn’t be here. And every single person in this room
is weak, is needy or you wouldn’t be interested in this field because
we’re all here to help ourselves. We’re here to help our patients. Our
patients are our proxies, our doubles. And by helping our patients, we
help ourselves. We’re working with our own hurt selves. And we’re
working with the patient’s hurt self. But that doesn’t mean we’re not
strong. We are strong. We need to make room for this sometimes baffling
mixture of strength and weakness and resourcefulness to work with
both. We need to make room for our own hurt selves. We will always be
hurt. We’ll always need more inner support for our own beings.
Back to nirvana. Buddha discovered that nirvana doesn’t solve the
problems of birth. It’s wonderful to reach nirvana but a later Buddhist
movement taught that there is no break between nirvana and every-
day suffering. The enlightenment seeker attempts to help all sentient
beings. We feel the pain of others as our own and seek to do what we
can. We are all partners on the path.
The sentient being you spend most time with is you. So you are your
first charge. You are your first patient because you will be your patient
all your life long. You’ll be in your own care all your life long, your
primary patient. Your job is to become compassionate to this primary
patient, the closest one in your care. See what support and wisdom you
can manifest for this being who needs your help.
DAY 2 75
Question 1
I’d like to return a moment to myths and dreams. We said the core of
the dream is an emotional experience. But I’m wondering if the affect
is always real? Is it always true? Does affect in the dream also get dis-
torted? Does it also get reversed? Does it also get hidden?
Response 1
It’s always hidden. It’s always distorted. There are always “disinforma-
tion” processes going on. That’s part of what a narrative is. The dream
is a narrative. And it distorts and deforms. So the emotional experience
is ultimately unknown. That doesn’t mean you don’t feel something.
We do feel something. I hope the core of this seminar is an emotional
experience too. But it is important to wait and see how that transforms,
evolves, changes. The exercise that Bion suggests makes use of change:
find your myth and write associations to it and see how it changes.
In some way you know what the affect is, at least the affect tone of
the dream that’s available in your experience, but you also know if
you pay attention to it, sit with it, feel your way into it, let it work on
you—further things happen. The known affect you grab hold of or
that’s apparent in your dream leads you to more affective possibilities.
You are worked on by obvious, known, and less known, and even ulti-
mately unknown emotional processes. They all impact on you and add
to experiencing. Bion seems to suggest, cut away the narrative and see
what’s left, get to the emotional nucleus of the narrative. That doesn’t
mean you’ve gotten “truth.” But let’s see what you did get and where
you find yourself.
Freud spoke about a dream navel. Maybe what we’re touching
is some kind of journey towards the dream navel, through it. That’s
a funny image—dream navel. Freud says you can’t find it. In a way
Bion is saying, find the unfindable. We’re looking for what can’t be
found. You might find lots of truths—but the big fish here is what isn’t
known. If you find it it’s not the truth you’re looking for, but maybe
a sub-truth. Sub-truths can be very helpful. But it’s the fish that gets
76 EIGEN IN SEOUL
away or has not yet been found that is the emotional nucleus Bion
touches. We may as yet lack equipment to find and process such
unknown emotional impacts. We see where we go with our sensing
process.
If the patient says, “Hey, this is all in your mind. This has nothing to
do with me,” you at least found out where you landed at the moment.
I think to a large extent that therapy is for the therapist. We should be
grateful to our patients. They give us something to do, keep us off the
streets. They give us a more constructive life. They help us organize our
lives, give us meaning, help us make a living. They give us a chance to
mine ourselves, to go into the mine of our psyche and keep mining it.
We owe a lot to our patients. When Bion was asked questions about the
practice of psychotherapy—how do you know this? how do you know
that?—he said, keep on doing it. It grows with you and you with it as
you do it.
When I first started doing therapy some fifty years ago, I told the
head of the clinic, “I don’t know who’s getting more, the patients or
me. I can’t speak for them, but I’m getting something from this. Don’t
know if it’s helping the patients, but it’s helping me.” He looked at me,
this experienced, older man, gave a slight smile and said, “At least it’s
helping someone.”
I sometimes told my early patients “You know, I don’t know if you’re
getting anything out of this but it’s been damn good for me.” Recently
I got a phone call from a woman I treated at the clinic nearly fifty years
ago. I remember her so well and her husband too. I was young and
didn’t understand marriage and thought they would break up, things
could get so trying. Apparently they both grew, the marriage endured.
My former patient said, “I wanted you to know in case you needed to
hear this, I want to tell you. Thank you. You helped me find myself.”
She told me about her life, her children, the career she followed, paths
she took. It was wonderful to hear from her, the joy in her voice, the
pleasure she took in the difficulties of her life and what she did with
them. We both shed tears. You never know. Sometimes you do harm,
maybe a lot of harm. But sometimes, when you’re not looking, you do
some good too.
CHAPTER THREE
Day 3
77
78 EIGEN IN SEOUL
I’d like to add a few words about Bion’s A Memoir of the Future and
the lines I quoted yesterday. He says that he inevitably failed to write
without expectation, memory, desire and understanding. Especially
understanding. There’s something about being understood that Bion
mistrusts. He seems to feel that most ways of understanding some-
one are wrong ways. He doesn’t want to be pinned down by under-
standing, pinned by meaning. He tried to write—it’s a contradiction
in terms—from a place of openness, zero, naked, as if one could write
without understanding, a kind of O-writing. If the book is a failure, it’s
a wonderful failure. So many passages open reality, open you. Skin is
shed, torn, skin grows back. Transformations—as in Ovid—only here
more obviously psychical—go on and on. Try the book. If it takes, it will
open pathways.
During breakfast with Joonho, we remarked that the theme for this
morning, “I don’t know”, wouldn’t got over well with Lacanians who
do know. In psychoanalysis there has been a history of knowing and
that knowing is very important. When I was younger, classical analysts
knew and contributions of many of them were important. They opened
doors of psychic perception. Yet they tyrannized the feel of psychoanal-
ysis in the United States and it was hard for new life to be born. When I
was growing into psychoanalysis in the U.S., much of it seemed dead to
me. Psychoanalysts knew so much there was little room for not knowing
and the new. The lack of fresh experience was compounded by politics.
When I was younger, the field was dominated by medical practitioners.
There was little room for practitioners with backgrounds in the human-
ities. So much so that when Theodore Reik came to the United States
and tried to join the New York Psychoanalytic Society he was rejected.
Freud personally recommended Reik, and it was Reik’s rejection that
prompted Freud to write his essay on lay analysis, in which he said
the humanities provide a better background for psychoanalysis than
medicine. Art, poetry, drama, history were closer to psychic reality and
more important in feeding psychoanalytic intuition. When Bion spoke
in New York in 1978, the only analyst who worked in the U.S. that he
mentioned was Reik, particularly his essay on surprise.
Students with background in the humanities grew up around Reik.
He gave a seminar that eventually grew into the first non-medical
psychoanalytic institute in New York City, the National Psycho-
logical Association for Psychoanalysis (NPAP). I wonder if it took
its name, partly, from Freud writing that psychoanalysis was a part
of psychology—not medicine, not neurology. It accepted students
DAY 3 79
know, ask. But if you asked often, you caused trouble. The teacher
wouldn’t like it and want you to shut up. You would get shamed. You
would feel ashamed of not knowing and eventually shut up or at least
not ask so many questions, not all the questions you want. If you’re
lucky, you preserve an area of not knowing in your own self. You don’t
lose contact with not knowing, but you learn to suppress it. This in itself
can be bewildering, but you learn how to do it.
My high school in Passaic, New Jersey, was pretty decent. Many of
its graduates went to good colleges. I was lucky to get through high
school and go to a good college without knowing what was going on at
all. Inside my mind throbbed, “What’s going on? What’s school for?”
I didn’t get it and wondered is it this way for others or was something
wrong with me?
It wasn’t until I went to college that suddenly I got the feeling, Ah!
This is what school is for. It was a new sensation, not present until
then. Teachers at last talked about things that made sense. Literature
I read, art I saw was meaningful to me. The reality of meaning came
alive. Later I got the idea that most of my teachers in grade school
didn’t know what was going on either. They just acted like they did.
They were playing their teacher roles. Many were dogmatic—this is
the way things are or should be. Did they know? More than anything,
James Joyce and Socrates turned my lights on in college. Imagine a con-
versation between Socrates and one of my teachers in Passaic. “Do you
really think you know what you know?” The unmasking would be like
peeling off skin. “Well you know, it’s not so obvious.”
Do you remember as children feeling that way about the whole
universe? Who knows what’s going on here? Does anyone know
what’s going on in this universe? In any universe? I don’t think anyone
knows. No one ever knew. We have ideas and opinions and know this
and that.
Finally as a grown man, an older man, I finally get to say what my
child self wanted to say. But my child self had to sit on it, stifle it. When
I got to be an analyst and entered the psychoanalytic world, I realized
so many analysts pretended to know something they didn’t know. They
knew this and they knew that. They knew Oedipus, a big knowing in
itself. They knew a lot in a real way. But with patients, they pretended
to know what they didn’t know. They pretended to know Something,
but were making it up. They made it up as they went along and pre-
tended to know.
82 EIGEN IN SEOUL
It’s a grace to be able to finally say out loud, “I don’t know” and
write about it, talk about it, a place for I don’t know. To validate I don’t
knowing as an important state, activity, ability in psychoanalysis or
therapy. I’m thankful that the child self who has been befuddled by my
life so many years finally gets the chance to breathe freely and openly
and honestly and fully say, “What’s going on here? I don’t know.” It’s a
relief not to have to pretend you know.
I think there was a period in my life many years ago when I was
afraid to let patients know that I didn’t know. Many patients had been
exposed to Freudian analysis and likely had an analyst who knew.
Many analysts would be quiet and take notes and give interpretations
that seemed to know what was going on.
Years ago, Alan Roland, a New York analyst, held seminars and one
year invited French analysts to speak. One evening Rene Major gave
an interesting talk on hysteria, calling attention to a painting, photo or
mirror on the wall of the clinic in which a woman having an hysterical
fit was being interviewed by Charcot. At the same time she was being
interviewed, she was in the picture within the picture watching herself
being interviewed, taking in her effect on the audience. A kind of dou-
bling or triple mirroring of consciousness. Major was talking about split
consciousness, intricacies of launching and seeing yourself through the
eyes of the other, watching how the other sees you, trying to capture the
desire of the other.
An analyst who was present said, “I’m not sure I understand what
you mean. You need to define your terms.” Rene waited, a bit puzzled.
He had given what seemed to be a pretty good talk and most of us got
something from it. The man continued, “When I use a term, I define it to
mean only one thing.” Rene Major looks at him and says, “Do you mind
telling us how you do that?” It was a helpful moment. Meaning doesn’t
work in a one thing way. Meaning never means one thing. It wouldn’t
mean anything if it meant only one thing, if that were possible. Meaning
is alive with meaning, with pluralistic levels and counter levels of
meaning.
I doubt Rene Major could have given his talk if he had to try to define
terms in a way that met stringent claims of clarity. A certain kind of
“unknowing” supports speech. There’s a taboo against not knowing in
the culture. On the one hand you’re told it’s OK not to know—you can
learn. On the other, there’s shame attached to not knowing. You have to
pretend to know. There’s a lot of make believe knowing. All groups are
DAY 3 83
built on make believe knowing. It’s scary not to know but make believe
knowing is scarier. There’s a lot of delusional clarity floating around.
You might precipitate destructive events from a pretense of know-
ing something you don’t, a pretense of omniscience. Over time, our
“I don’t know” in us can become friends. Your ‘I don’t know’ and you
can become friends. From deep not knowing, no one is excluded. We
are partners in not knowing. Letting in deep unknowing has a chance
of fostering ability to wait, care and share, patience needed to live well
together and be intimate with ourselves. Deep not knowing fosters new
kinds of intimacy.
If you are deep in prayer or meditation, there are unknown intima-
cies, intimacies you’ve never felt before. You don’t have to say what it
is, define it. You just have to be in it, with it. Unknown intimacies do
something. To enter fields of unknown intimacies opens places of exist-
ence where nothing is required other than to marvel and say thank you.
More work comes later. When you are in it, this place of unknown inti-
macies, the only words that come are, thank you. Sometimes the words,
“I love you.” When you come out of it, there’s more work to be done.
Now that we’ve touched part of the end of the chapter, I feel that
starting from the beginning will be more understandable. I also feel that
I don’t have to rush because I said what I want to say. The essence of
what I wanted to say has been mediated. So we’ll start.
“My purpose in writing this chapter is to dignify and celebrate the
phrase, I don’t know. It has a long rich cultural heritage. Yet in political
practice and in everyday life, it often is denigrated as if those who seek
or hold power, whether in family, work or politics are phobic about
not knowing. They fear that appearing not to know would compromise
their position and precipitate the slide down the ladder of self-esteem.
We are urged from grammar school on not to be ashamed of not
knowing. We are told that not knowing makes learning possible, part of
the process of getting to know. Yet few of us escaped childhood without
being shamed for not knowing. I doubt many go through school with-
out many kinds of humiliation not least involving fear of not knowing.
We learn early to cover up deficits. An illiterate delinquent may hide
his incapacity with increased bravado and destructive acts. It is a funny
kind of learning, making believe we know more or are better, stronger
or more able than we know we are. I remember volunteering to tie
someone’s shoelace in kindergarten although I didn’t know how. The
teacher treated me rather well but the event stuck like glue in my mind.
84 EIGEN IN SEOUL
I wondered over many years why I had the need to do that. I knew I
could not tie the shoe. Yet I needed to seem as if I did, even though the
result must be failure. I was caught between fantasy and reality, hung
by my own mind.”
I was beginning to say earlier that when I was younger I was afraid
of letting patients know that I didn’t know. They were used to a milieu
in which analysts knew. If I didn’t know something they would say,
“What am I paying you for? I’m paying you to know.” It took awhile
to be able to have a response to that. I had to grow into more relaxed
wondering, “What was I doing? What am I doing with this patient?”
Little by little, I learned to say something like “No, you’re not paying
me to know. You’re paying me to try to be with you in a helpful way.”
Over time patients got used to me not knowing. It was a relief for them
too because then they didn’t have to know. And we could begin to sim-
ply let feelings come and talk about them, talk with them like welcome
or unwelcome visitors. Maybe understanding them, maybe not. People
like to find something that’s there and talk about it. And the capacity to
make contact and communicate grows.
“When I see world leaders making destructive decisions in a shell
of power, I wonder what gaps, deficits, ignorance they push away.
Do they imagine they know more or are more capable than they are?
Do they overestimate ability to gain a hope for outcome? Sometimes
it appears that the fear of showing weakness and ignorance becomes
more important than constructive action and going through processes
the latter entails. Hallucinated strength, hallucinated right and might
becomes more important than what reality can bear.”
“What a relief when someone says, ‘I don’t know, wait. There’s more
to learn. Let’s make opening for learning.’ I don’t remember a single
public declaration of uncertainty and need for deliberation in high
government decisions in the last eight years.” I was writing in October
2008 after eight years of the Bush government and there wasn’t a single
public declaration of not knowing. There was hallucinated knowing
for manipulative purposes. “I don’t remember a single public decla-
ration of uncertainty and need for deliberation in high government
decisions in the last eight years—momentous decisions affecting
lives, bodies, souls.” Momentous decisions were made on the basis of
pretense of knowing. I wrote this in October 2008 on the threshold of a
crucial presidential election. Many of us didn’t think Obama would get
elected. We knew he had the votes but feared the voting machines were
rigged and only a big majority turnout could ensure a win. It felt like
DAY 3 85
* * *
Any questions, thoughts, responses, anything anyone wants to say or
ask me to talk about?
Question 1
At the beginning of “Primary Aloneness,” you quoted Chuang Tzu:
“When the Great Bird rises very high, he must have the wind under
him.” I’m not able to be a great bird or fly high. What kind of wind will
support me?
Response 1
Well, there’s a wind for every bird. Find the unknown wind that is
meant for you. I don’t know that the proverb means there’s no wind for
small birds, it just means that even a great bird needs the wind.
Question 2
I remember a story, I think by Dogen, about a snake. The tail of the
snake was upset because it was always the head that led the way. The
tail wanted to lead the way and was given a chance. But it kept bump-
ing into everything and getting hurt. Not seeing, not knowing was
hurtful. I’m a teacher. I teach children. We talked earlier about how we
let patients know that we don’t know. But as a teacher, as someone in
charge, someone who has to lead and teach, if I were to say I don’t
know, there’s going to be a lot of fear and anxiety on the children’s part.
How do I deal with this?
Response 2
It’s a cultural problem, a problem that all cultures face. The taboo
against not knowing—being phobic about not knowing—is universal.
If one has to know or feel one has to know with children, at least one
86 EIGEN IN SEOUL
can do that with some humility and not turn it into a power struggle.
The problem is that the way cultures are, it is very easy for power
struggles to fill the gap if one starts letting down pretences. This is one
reason why psychotherapy is such a momentous experiment, such an
important experiment because it’s an experiment in not having to keep
up all our pretences. Little by little we can reduce our pretences and
when we do that, we go through things. We go through the very things
that we are phobic about going through, all the things we’re afraid will
happen if we let down controls of omniscience and omnipotence. We go
through them and find relief in going through them. At least to some
extent, we discover we don’t have to be so controlling, so omniscient.
We get along a little better with a little less omniscience. We become a
little more flexible, caring, open. It’s another way of life. Cultures work
against this. The cultural establishment, the mainstream is afraid of this
other way of life. We’re sort of experiments in nature experimenting
with culture. Is it possible to exist as a group if we don’t display power
and control and pretense of knowledge? Is it possible to survive if we
simply interact as partners, partners in a big journey? It’s not an easy
question. It’s an evolutionary question. I feel the boss model, being on
top model, reached a point where it can destroy the civilization it grew
up to preserve. The boss, top dog, king or power model that one time
was useful in small groups, and grew to organize larger societies, had
a long run in history. It reflects human tendencies that were relatively
helpful in organizing cultures to an extent, but failed to solve many
basic problems and now contributes to the latter.
It failed to solve problems of war. As long as you have a boss culture,
you have war. As long as you have a boss or boss group, chances are
those with power get greedy and want more power. There’s going to be
fighting and a lot of people without much power pay for the bosses and
their machinations, often with their lives.
It’s marvelous to have cultural products and technological know-how
but we reached a new phase in evolution where the boss model can be
very destructive. Advances in technological communication and media
control evolved to a point where groups in power can sway the minds
of millions. There is ability to channel millions of people for causes few
might benefit from. We are at a persistent crossroads as to whether it is
easier to develop destructive weapons and political-economic scenarios,
than find ways to get along peacefully and well. Many feel a new model
has to be tried but are at a loss how to accomplish this. A partnership
DAY 3 87
Question 3
I’m very impressed and even jealous of your ability to shed tears at
an event, a formal seminar like this. It was very touching. It’s true we
dose this thing we call psychoanalysis out too. We can only understand
as much as we can, depending on how mature we are, how much we
can let in or seek. Psychoanalysis is very difficult to understand. How
does it work, what is happening? I am glad you are raising questions
about it, about our ability to understand. I want to ask something
about Bion, about reality, being real, realization. Don’t shield me now.
DAY 3 89
Make sure you tell me the truth. Tell me more about the process of
digestion and how it goes along with preconception and conception,
and moves on to other levels of transformation. I’m wondering, what is
ultimate reality and to what degree are we alive? How alive are we? I’d
like to know what all this looks like?
Response 3
Well, it’s taking place here. This is ultimate reality. Right here. We are
doing it. Bion says he can’t represent it. I’m thinking of a Bion passage
about a patient that frustrated him, one we spoke about the other day,
starting, stopping, starting, stopping, a sense of not going anywhere,
a feeling that nothing’s happening. Something was going on in that
session—perhaps a frustrating sense of going nowhere—but Bion
can’t represent it. He can make you feel what’s going on, the frustra-
tion, the somewhere-nowhere. But you might interpret it differently
than he. You may find different strands of meaning in events and feel-
ings he describes. He said he could write thousands of words and
still not represent it. Yet he can make you feel what’s going on even if
understanding this “what” differs. There’s an X you’re both buzzing
around, whatever that X is. And that X is somehow an outgrowth of
ultimate reality. We are ultimate reality. To be an outgrowth of ulti-
mate reality is to be part of ultimate reality (and therefore, ultimate
reality itself).
Bion once wrote something like, ‘one can’t sing a potato, only be a
potato.’ How does one sing a potato? A potato simply is. We are what
we are. When asked his name, God said “I am” or “I am what I am” or
“I will be there.” That’s sort of a model we share. Here we are—we’re
all here. We can doubt that. We can make believe it’s not happening,
that we’re not all here. We can raise radical doubt. Are we here? How?
To what extent? Am I anywhere? Well, yes we are here this moment,
in one form or another. Jeffrey Eaton, an analyst in Seattle likes to say,
“Nowhere/now-here”. This is real. What’s going on in this room is real.
How we talk about it, how we represent it, how we understand and
interpret it is going to vary among people. But something’s going on
here that’s real. And different people may feel it in different ways. But
this is ultimate reality. Right now. There isn’t anything more ultimate.
This is it. Sometimes I get a picture of the whole human race being
one organism with billions of heads. So I guess it applies to this room,
90 EIGEN IN SEOUL
whoever or how many people are here. One body with eighty heads.
One reality, with hundreds of interpretations.
You asked about realization, so maybe part of reality in this case will
be realizing we are here. Realizing we are ultimate reality.
I’m going to try to go on a little bit. Not knowing does not sit well
in high places. Whether it’s in a school or a family or a country, or in
psychoanalysis. There’s pressure to know and if you don’t know, to fill
in the empty space, saturate the space where not knowing would be.
There’s a famous story of Bodhidharma, allegedly introducing Zen Bud-
dhism in China. The story may be a fable, as so many narratives in reli-
gions are. Fables express states. Socrates felt this and said when you get
to a certain point in inquiry, you need to use myths. There are fabulous
dimensions in religions because it’s so hard to say what needs saying,
perhaps can’t be said. In this fable, Bodhidharma crosses the Yangtze
River and meets Emperor Wu. Emperor Wu asks Bodhidharma, “What
is the essence of the holy teachings?” “Emptiness—without holiness,”
Bodhidharma replies. Emperor Wu is taken aback, perplexed, uncer-
tain, perhaps insulted and challenged, perhaps assaulted. The inner
twinge felt when internal ground shakes during personal exchange,
when you have an exchange that shakes you up and you try to act as if
you didn’t feel a quake. The emperor fronted, covered the inner quiver.
Emptiness—not holiness. What do you mean emptiness without holi-
ness? I have merits. I’m trying to be holy. I do good deeds. I study the
teachings. I teach the teachings. I’m a good person, striving for holi-
ness. Empty, not holy? In an instant, Bodhidharma takes away part of
the emperor’s identity and the emperor is speechless. Ground shakes
but the emperor being the emperor tries not to show it. He doesn’t start
to cry and ask for instruction. He keeps his cool. Maybe he is reeling.
Maybe his dharma appetite is stimulated.
“Who are you?” asks the Emperor. “I don’t know,” replied Bodhid-
harma. Again the emperor pauses, a deer caught in the headlights,
afraid of losing face, unsettled and unsure, needing time to regroup
and sort things out. The moment passes and the emperor fails to reach
out for help. He went on being the emperor, shook inside but emperor
outside. He didn’t say, “What’s going on here? I’m quaking, paralyzed.
Teach me.” And Bodhidharma goes his way.
Later, Emperor Wu spoke with his teacher about the event. “Do you
know who that man is?” asked the teacher. “I don’t know” replies the
emperor. “He’s the bearer of the Buddha Heart-Mind Seal,” the teacher
DAY 3 91
says and adds “Don’t bother sending after him. The whole kingdom
couldn’t bring him back.” So here’s another “I don’t know”, a differ-
ent “I don’t know”. Bodhidharma’s “I don’t know” and the emperor’s
“I don’t know.”
When the emperor has time to let down and reflect a little bit, he
starts to get interested. Who is this man? He begins to think, “Maybe
I’ve missed something. Maybe we should send after him. Maybe there’s
something more here than I realized.” But the teacher says “Too late,
too late. The moment’s over. The moment has passed. You missed it.
A moment gone forever.” Yet the moment leaves waves. Emperor Wu
is not immune. In one of my fantasies, I imagine the emperor opening
a little. A little crack, a little more. The emperor in me becomes a little
more curious, lets down a bit more. My emperor’s sense of wonder
grows, realizes he has more to go. He does not open in time for the
missed encounter, but the missed encounter leaves residues. We often
need time. (See the chapter, “I Don’t Know” in Contact With the Depths
for more about the Bodhidharma “Empty—not holy” story and much
more about I don’t know).
You’re in an argument with your partner and the partner stabs you
in the heart with truth about yourself, truth you don’t want to acknowl-
edge. She sees you better than you see yourself in some way. She may
not see the whole story but she sees part of the story better than you
want to see part of the story and it stabs you. But you go on with your
fight. Then two days later or a day later or five hours later, you think
“You know she was right about me. She was right and I couldn’t admit
it. I couldn’t admit it at the time but what she said was the truth. It’s
not the whole picture but she was right.” It takes time to acknowledge
truths that upset you. And it’s the same with patients too. There may by
a negative reaction to something you say that has value but over time
it may start sinking in. So, two different ‘I don’t knows’ with different
functions, levels, possibilities. The emperor’s “I don’t know” is both a
seed and a barrier, a fence around himself. But it’s not only defensive;
it’s also a seed. So often defenses and seeds are indistinguishable. One
reaction can serve multiple functions. Something happened to him,
seeds of not knowing to cultivate. A seed planted in the emperor, need-
ing time.
It is not impossible for the emperor’s “I don’t know” to shed selves
and become the radically open not knowing Bodhidharma mediates.
In my fantasy, the emperor keeps growing. The seed keeps growing.
92 EIGEN IN SEOUL
cruelty, my meanness? One can turn this and say, “If I can be forgiven
just because of my ignorance, if that’s all it takes, wouldn’t the evil in
me warrant compassion even more? If ignorance warrants compas-
sion, oh my God, then the evil I do that I don’t want to do but I can’t
help doing, that I don’t even know I’m doing, that warrants even more
compassion.” All the hidden nooks and crannies, all the secret places
need compassion and forgiveness. If God’s mercy seeped into all the
hidden spots, all the traumatized, deformed, monster places, places
I can’t even sense or even know how to begin to find or go to—would
this be a beginning?
One of the biggest challenges is to go from “they” to “I” or “we”.
Forgive us for we don’t know what we’re doing. We don’t know who
we are. The move from “they” to “I” and “we” involves profound inner
reordering. You’re with a partner, forgiving them. That means you’re
blaming them. If you’re forgiving them, you’re blaming them. It’s not
enough. The depths inside all of us need compassion, need forgiveness.
Your deepest depths—places you don’t know exist, intimate places
without a name, without a map. New nuances of freedom, quest and
caring. Not they don’t know. I don’t know. We don’t know.
Question 1
Recently in a session I told the patient, “I don’t know.” And this made
the patient very angry. The patient said “I don’t want to hear that you
don’t know.” I feel that sometimes I’m forced to become this object that
the patient needs, that the patient cannot tolerate the therapist’s not
knowing, that sometimes the patient needs the omniscient object and
cannot stay in the treatment and even has to leave the treatment if the
analyst does not know. So what can we do in this case?
Response 1
Well, I don’t know what the case is. We’d have to talk about it and see
what he was angry about, where the anger is coming from. It’s possible
94 EIGEN IN SEOUL
to not know and yet not say you don’t know. Not knowing doesn’t
mean you have to say it. Just keep it to yourself. As long as you
know you don’t know. That’s the most important thing. Flexibility is
important. So if someone needs you to say something, then you say it.
You can say it as a supportive thing, a challenging thing, a stimulating
thing, an interpretation, whatever is needed. You do what you need
to do to play for time so that links can be formed over time in the
therapy. There’s no one rule. It’s not one-size-fits-all. I’m talking about
something deeper. I’m talking about not what you do or don’t do. I’m
talking about a very deep, underlying attitude, whether you have an
omniscient attitude. If you have a “know it all” attitude, your patient
will leave you or get worse. He won’t get better. But if you give them a
confident view, a confident interpretation from your own strength and
caring, that’s fine as long as you know you’re not omniscient. If you’re
really a “know it all,” you’re going to have a very rough time with
your patients. There’s going to be a power struggle because the patient
is a “know it all” too. The patient sees things about you that you don’t
know. The patient will see your defects, and you won’t be able to stand
them. The patient has his area of omniscience too, things he knows
that you can’t bear. If you start playing the game of internal omnis-
cience, that you think you know inside in your own inner core, then
you’re going to be in a power struggle with the patient. If you have a
more flexible inside and you know you don’t know and you’re try-
ing this and trying that, then you won’t have many power struggles.
You can say anything you want. But everything depends on your inner
attitude. I think Winnicott said at one point that as he got older he
became more and more silent with his patients. He was giving them
more and more room. And now and then he would say something just
to let them know that he was there or that he was alive and that they
haven’t killed him off in the session. Someone would still be with them
if they felt they needed it. He wasn’t speaking from the point of view
of omniscience. Even when he made some pretty wild interpretations,
he was speaking from the point of view of imagination, his own imagi-
native feel of the patient. He would come up with very inspiring ideas
that would intrigue the patient or make the patient interested. If you’re
really with the person, eventually you’re going to say things that make
the patient feel cared for or stimulated or say, “Well, I never thought of
that.” But it doesn’t mean that you’re clinging to these ideas or advanc-
ing them as the dogmatic truth. It’s an inspiration that comes to you
DAY 3 95
and you share it. Maybe it’ll turn the patient on in some way. A lot of
times things just come out of the blue. Ideas just come out of the blue.
And if they seem like good ideas to you, why not try them out and see
what happens?
If you were in supervision with me, I might ask, as a kind of explo-
ration, why you said anything at that point. What was going on inside
you? If we were working together, I might ask what was the pressure
you felt? What were the kinds of processes that got released, stimu-
lated by this pressure from the patient who could not bear your not
knowing. I could only make some good guesses. I would wonder about
some basic things like, if I’m not the omnipotent, omniscient authority,
why do you (the patient) feel so lost? Where does this need come from?
Is it that everyone was weak in your family? You didn’t have enough
strength from the parents? Is it that someone was overly bossy, overly
intrusive and now you can’t bear to be without this filling? I might try
to imagine what led to the anger and what needs for omnipotence or
omniscience may be involved. Perhaps I’d wonder how the person felt
when the omnipotence/omniscience was there and not there. How do
you feel when I act like I know, how do you feel when I express not
knowing? How do you feel if I’m the omnipotent/omniscient object
and how do you feel if I’m not? One begins exploring ins and outs of
psychic possibilities. So I wish you were in supervision with me and
I wish I was in Seoul and we could work together for several months
and see what would come up.
I’d like to share a couple of moments in my practice and see how
it goes. I call the first one “Heart and Pain” or “Heartless Heart” or
“Heart of Pain” or, better, a word the patient uses, “Phantom Heart.”
It happened with a patient I call Milton in Toxic Nourishment. If you
read about Milton in Toxic Nourishment, you will see in this passage
he has not gotten “cured”. From one perspective, he may seem to be
in as bad a shape as ever, except he is not in as bad a shape as ever.
There are many new things in his life that he couldn’t experience before,
many new moments and kinds of relationships with his wife and fam-
ily that were unavailable before. Still, what he goes through can sound
very bad, depending on one’s view of what can happen in therapy.
The moment I am going to speak about happened a decade after Toxic
Nourishment was published and if things sound as bad now as then, it’s
because in some way that’s true. The bad thing, the hurt and damaged
thing is there. It doesn’t go away. But other parts of personality grow
96 EIGEN IN SEOUL
around them and there’s more to him. Still, in our work we stick with
the damaged thing. He is one of those patients who must stick with the
damaged part. Someone observed yesterday how quick I am to run away
from it. But Milton won’t let me do that. And you won’t either.
When Milton came to therapy, the damaged point was not just the
damaged point, it was nearly his whole personality. In a way, it has
shrunk to a more contained area of feeling, while healthy elements of
his life expanded. Milton sometimes notes that I haven’t written about
him in a long time. Maybe he was proud that I wrote about him, letting
people know the truth of the experience he goes through, letting others
know it exists, is real. I wonder if I haven’t written about him in nine
or ten years has anything to do with my sense that I communicated an
essence of what he tried to express, tried to validate. I have a feeling
he misses my writing about him, misses this public witness of private
truth, a shared witness. Yet here I am talking about him, about to share
something that happened recently. How labyrinthine and enigmatic we
are, so many roots and branches.
Yesterday we were talking about constant conjunctions, including
conjunction of “dual” tendencies. I go one way, then another, start, stop,
do something, undo something. What I say one moment gets undone or
added to by the next. Mind in its serpentine, fish-like, bird-like move-
ments. Say one thing, then another happens. I say I haven’t written
about Milton in ten years, and here I am talking about him. Things are
watery, liquid, reversals are part of the way things happen, part of the
way things change.
Freud speaks of the fungus as a kind of psychic model. There are
different models of the psyche. One is a vertical model, like a tree with
roots and branches. Another might be more like a mushroom or fun-
gus, a rhizome (Deleuze & Guatteri, 1980). A fungus grows every which
way. It doesn’t have a simply vertical structure. It’s all tangled, reverses
on itself, grows this and that way, seeming to make up structure as it
goes along. Freud likened the dream to a fungus, spoke of a dream
navel that vanishes from sight. Freud in fact does have vertical,
hierarchical models too. But also a more mysterious one, where form
is elusive. We are tempted to try to go through the dream navel into an
ungraspable, mysterious world, where roots are everywhere, all there
is, liquid.
In the particular moment that I have in mind now, Milton began
speaking about how he can generate heartfelt experiences in others.
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He can move others deeply. And how painful this is to him because he
has no heart. It’s as if he stimulates the hearts of others but feels deep
pain because they are feeling something he cannot feel. He can make
others feel in a heartfelt way, but he himself cannot feel in a heartfelt
way. Nevertheless, he does his best and his close relationships have
improved enormously. His relationships have a wider range of feelings
than before, but he still feels a heartless core. In the session I am think-
ing of he said, “I have a phantom heart that can touch the heart of oth-
ers. And I’m very good at it.”
He adds, “All I have is the discipline of deprivation and despera-
tion.” What he means is that he acts like a caring person. He does well
by others. He treats others as best he can. He treats others in what seems
like a caring way. But he doesn’t feel any of this. He knows that love
exists. He knows from others that love exists. He sees it at work in their
lives. He acts as if he has a loving heart too because he has no bet-
ter frame of reference as a guide, none better to believe in. He sees no
other claim in the universe that’s better than love. He acts like a loving
person, does his best to do right by people, but insists this very action
is a discipline of deprivation and desperation. If one vanishes through
the psychic navel, one would live in a tangled world of deprivation
and desperation. In his deepest inside there is deprivation-desperation,
his truth, one of his truths. He tells me, “Though it pains me, I have no
recourse. I think it’s horrific, the kind of person I am is horrific. Even
as I say that I have no conviction in my stomach that it is horrific.”
In this mode, he experiences himself as an incurable monster, yet feels
no horror about it because this is the way he is. This is fact, reality for
him. Not even horror is horrible, even if it registers as horror, because
there is no real heart to experience it.
After a while, he begins talking about his childhood again. If you
read about Milton in Toxic Nourishment, you probably learned that his
mother was an alcoholic mess who stayed in bed much of the time. His
father eventually took him from her. This was something Milton had
wanted for years. His father was more active and alive but arrogant,
narcissistic, invasive, possessive. On the one hand he was warm, but on
the other an engulfing threat to Milton’s inner core. Milton wanted to
be with his father because his mother was not there or worse than not
there, a chaotic basket case. Yet his father was a threat to self. Milton
was caught between two kinds of annihilation terrors. In the session I’m
thinking of Milton tried to talk about lies or a birth of the realization that
98 EIGEN IN SEOUL
his parents lied, not just to him, but to themselves. It gnawed on Milton
that his father presented himself as the bearer of truth but lived a lie.
His father had an inflated opinion of himself that Milton saw through
but could do nothing about. His mother was a kind of vegetable. He felt
his father lived a lie and his mother’s state was deeper than lies, worse
than lies.
As he lived his way into his child self, he lived his way into some-
one who saw the reality of his parents, facts he couldn’t live with.
He could not stomach his father’s narrative: I’m a great person, look
what I did for you. I saved you from your mother. I’m more honest,
truthful, tougher, loving than other people. He felt his father wanted
to be worshipped, believed as he presented himself. But the impact of
his personality on Milton did not fit his self-description. The truth of
felt impact scared Milton. The impact of his father’s personality was
dreadful. In a way, it might have been better if Milton could accept his
father’s hypocrisies, his lies about himself and life, and gotten along
more normally. But inwardly Milton felt he was being killed, dam-
aged, mutilated. The truth of felt impact was devastating. He was being
saved from his quicksand mother by his devastating father. Inwardly
he couldn’t stop watching what was happening to himself. He could
not stop watching the damage.
In the case of Harry the other day, it’s as if he saw a reality and kept
on seeing the reality. In his case, the inner reality of killing with words,
which did not seem to get confirmed by actual events. His seemed
to express an unsustainable state in which aspects of affects failed to
have an impact and began to die out, lacking inner and outer suste-
nance. We did not have time to go far enough the other day, but if we
had, we would have touched moments early in life when reality was
unsustainable, too much to bear. Realities he could not influence or
change. Moments in which Harry became helpless in face of his own
feelings.
Oedipus saw, lived, underwent a reality he could not bear seeing
and living with. He put out his eyes, as if saying, “I don’t want to see
what I lived, I can’t bear it. I can’t bear the pain of what happened.”
In face of unbearable pain that can not be faced, Bion was led to say that
Sophocles created Freud, Oedipus created psychoanalysis (“Tower of
Babel” section in Cogitations). The moment, the structure that Sophocles
was bringing to the attention of the human race planted a seed that
Freud brought to fruition in a new way, another way—psychoanalysis
DAY 3 99
Milton says “I could have stopped lying” and I say “How? You’d
have to become inhuman. You’d have to die.” These words came by
themselves, nothing I thought about, just a moment’s feeling. What
would happen to me if I stopped lying in childhood? I probably would
be a better person but I wouldn’t be here today. Psychoanalysis says
no human being lives who doesn’t lie. Psychoanalysis says things get
rerouted, displaced, defensive. In a way psychoanalysis is a catalogue
of lying, deep lying, unconscious lying, unconscious self-deception that
besets the human race. To some extent, psychoanalysis helps us catch
onto how we are necessary self-deceivers in face of what we go through.
The fact that we can sense such deep lying processes in our nature is
also a testimony for our need for truth about ourselves. Truth, lying—a
tangle no one has escaped, no Houdini among us to untie our knots. So
when Milton said, “I could have stopped lying,”—the question “How?”
broke out from my heart. “You’d have to become inhuman,” I added.
A Satori moment. Impact. Bang. For a moment, Milton sees the vio-
lence that getting rid of lying would entail. It’s not a symbol, not make-
believe, not a proxy. It’s real. The thing itself. He sees and experiences
first hand what getting rid of lying would have involved for him as a
child, a child in the predicament, the state he was in.
It’s about as close to a moment of compassion for himself that he ever
felt. He feels what he would have had to do to himself to end lying, the
violent impossibility of pulling out the roots of make believe, making
things up, diverting, dodging, hiding, displacing, rerouting, rationaliz-
ing. How do you pull the roots of these processes out? How can a child
end the mercy of lies in a traumatizing world? Lies that soothe, lies that
torment.
Buddha says it took him millions of years with millions of teachers.
Some Buddhist teachers say he never arrived. He never got there. Oth-
ers say he was always there. Others say, no, Buddha was never Buddha.
He never made it, he always was it, there is no making it. Confucius
says in the Analects that he feels like a failure. All his life, he loved the
Way, spoke of the Way, tried to help others move along the Way yet he
felt he never achieved it, not fully, not permanently. As an older man, he
felt that he himself failed to reach the state he was advocating through-
out his lifetime. My feeling is that Confucius likely lived a much better
life than he would have had he not tried to live the Way. But in the end
he confesses failing to do it. Now, if Confucius failed to do it, what else
is there for us to do but have compassion for our failures. It doesn’t
DAY 3 103
* * *
I don’t know if we’ll have time, but I’ll try to do one more, a little bit of
a case. We’ll see what we do. Feel free to share any of your thoughts or
requests.
Question 1
I feel that the three days have been quite a long trip. And from
yesterday, from Bion’s theory, T in O and F in O, the formula, the expres-
sion … if we look at Freud, he has his structure, id, ego, super ego.
Klein has her paranoid schizoid and depressive positions. But it feels
like Bion accepts humans as they are, doesn’t try to split them up or
divide them into categories. And I feel if one goes deep into Freud, one
can meet Klein and if one goes deep into Klein, one can meet Bion. We
also talked a little bit about psychoanalytic life, what that’s about and
104 EIGEN IN SEOUL
I feel that it is connecting the past, present and future. The frustrations
and pain of life, past and present, we embrace that. And anxieties about
the future. We don’t know what’s going to happen. A lot of worries. It’s
enduring all that and being able to open our minds towards the future.
I want to thank you for giving me this realization.
Response 1
You are talking about embracing, accepting, enduring. I found Bion very
accepting. When I saw him for sessions in New York in 1978, I brought
him some of my dreams. As we talked about the dreams, he sided with
scary figures in them, telling me these are real. They are emotional real-
ity. It’s not “just” a dream, not a symbol. It’s real. Later in one session
he suddenly caught himself speaking about “parts of the self” and said,
“You know we talk about parts of the self but there are no ‘parts’. Talk-
ing about parts is a way of speaking. We are really talking about you.
The ‘parts’ are really you.” Not this part of Mike Eigen, not that part of
Mike Eigen. Me.
Your image of Freud, you could’ve said Jung too, Freud, Klein, Jung,
Adler, Matte-Blanco, Winnicott, Milner, Christopher Bollas, Adam Phil-
lips, James Grotstein, the list goes on. You said that they all go into one
another, if you go far enough into one, you find the others. They all
meet each other. That’s the rhizome. Under the surface, there are all
kinds of connections.
David Bohm, a physicist, talked about two modes of being, the expli-
cate and implicate orders. Loosely speaking, the explicate order refers
to all the things that are on the surface that you can see, the distinctions
between things. There’s you, there’s me, there’s this object, that object.
You might say all the things that Adam named in Genesis, and that we
keep naming and adding to today. The implicate order involves the
deep unknown that you can’t see. Everything is interconnected below
the surface. Everything grows with everything else in ways we see and
don’t see. Sometimes you find yourself in the explicate order and don’t
know that you’re connected with everything else. You see something
over there and think oh, that’s the enemy. You don’t see the unseen
connection. It’s important what you’re saying. All these schools fought
each other and still fight each other. Yet they’re deeply interconnected
and meet each other, whether or not this is seen and digested. If Bion,
Klein, Lacan, Jung are all stripes on a tiger, then Bion’s saying still holds.
DAY 3 105
Maybe someday we’ll meet the tiger itself. (“Psycho-analysis itself is just
a stripe on the coat of the tiger. Ultimately it may meet the Tiger—The
Thing Itself—O.” Memoir of the Future; for further discussion of Bohm’s
implicate-explicate orders and their relation to psychoanalytic thinking
on creativity, see “The Distinction-Union Structure” in Contact With the
Depths, 2011).
I was thinking of the story I told about a man from Brazil calling me.
The man who didn’t leave a clear enough message for me to reach him
and I started getting frustrated and irritable until a therapist from Brazil
helped me. Once I got helped, the message got through and the man
and I began to work together. There are many forms of communication
we don’t ordinarily credit or take into account.
One day a woman in my seminar talked about a patient who rings,
hangs up. The patient calls her therapist and when her therapist answers,
she hangs up. This went on for several months. I told my seminar mem-
ber about my frustrating experience with the Brazilian man, what I went
through and how my feelings began to close up and the intervention by
my colleague that led to an opening. Within a week after telling her the
story, her patient stopped hanging up and calls between sessions began
to diminish (For more on start-stop, ring-hang up structures, see the
chapter “Ring-Hang Up, Start-Stop, On-Off” in Contact With the Depths.)
We are not sure what leads to what or what is causing what’s happen-
ing in a given moment or sequence. Often modes of communication we
fail to consider play an important role.
Question 2
(The question did not come out clearly on the tape. It had to do with
what we do in therapy and being at sea, how the therapist might
approach what isn’t known, the role of attention and the therapist’s
anxiety in staying with it when it’s not clear what you’re staying with.
How can you keep an open attentional state when the patient is making
demands and showing strong feelings and arousing strong feelings in
you? Especially when there is so much pain?)
Response 2
Everything I say is incomplete, partial, a tiny bit of what could be said.
For one thing, you can use what is happening as a spiritual exercise.
106 EIGEN IN SEOUL
Stick with it. You don’t have to act. You don’t have to do anything. Look
at it, feel it. If you are in an anxious state or angry state, see what it feels
like, stare at it. Sometimes it helps to make believe the patient isn’t in
the room. All there is, is what you are feeling. There is nothing except
what you are feeling and looking at. Just keep staring at it. If the patient
demands a response, say whatever you want, select something from
whatever comes to you, or have some favorite words to fall back on
when needed. If the patient is in a bad state and can’t bear your not
speaking, just say something. “It’s a nice day.” “It’s a bad day.” “We’re
having a bad day.” “We’re having a hard time.” “I feel badly that you
feel so badly.” “You have strong feelings and you’re right to have such
strong feelings.” The main thing inwardly is for you to keep looking at
the negative feeling you are having, that’s coming into you, that you
are feeling with the patient. Perhaps the patient is putting this strong
feeling into you. We don’t know if that is so or not. You might be feel-
ing the effects of the patient’s force field or you might be up against a
semi-collapse or weakness or deficit in yourself. It is not so unusual to
come upon limits in your personality, a hole in your being, incapac-
ity. To keep on paying attention to it, attending it if only intermittently,
when you are up to it—this is your practice. Paying attention to what
you can’t do, to the jams, to the incapacities, is a practice. How long and
with how much of you can you attend to something that doesn’t seem
to be working? Ten seconds? A minute? An hour? Day? Month? On and
off for years? Keep staring at it, at the rough spot, the tender spot, the
impossible spot, and see what happens with it.
If you look at something painful long enough and intense enough,
it becomes like a worm-hole. It opens up and you find yourself in
another space. This is what Buddha did. At some point early in his life,
he had the realization that life isn’t what he thought it was, that there
wasn’t only happy times in the palace, there was suffering. People were
homeless, hungry, in physical and psychological pain. There was great
suffering in the world and he felt that suffering. The whole world put
its pain into Buddha. A patient puts his pain into you, puts his neg-
ativity into you. All the negativities went into Buddha and he didn’t
know what to do. He tried techniques of renunciation. He tried yoga.
And he finally, eventually stayed with the suffering. My sense is he
stayed with the suffering, stayed with the suffering. Stayed with it,
stayed with it. And at some point, a psychic perforation occurred. The
intensity of staying with it, intensity of attention perforated the psyche,
DAY 3 107
opened it, something gave way, burst, opened up. (For more discussion
of intensity and psychic wormholes, see the chapter, “I Killed Socrates”
in Flames From the Unconscious: Trauma, Madness and Faith, 2009).
You pay attention to something intensely, something opens. You could
be a physicist, poet, psychoanalyst. If you stare at something intensely,
something opens. Picasso spent hours staring at a picture he was work-
ing on, hours looking at it and looking at it. At some unpredictable point,
he might see what the next move should or could be. It’s similar with
patients. Pain is your homework, their pain, your pain. Negativity is
your homework. My feeling is look at it—the pain, anger, grief, anxiety,
the horror, the beauty—in the session. If need be, ignore the patient and
stay with the pain you’re looking at. Let the patient fade away. If your
antenna picks up signals that the patient needs you to say something,
if your soul antenna tells you, “I need to say something now,” then say
something, Meanwhile, you’re still looking at the negative thing.
We’re very inventive and at times more in touch with the unknown
than we’re aware of. There may be a thread that links the deep unknown
with a momentary utterance. You are in the middle of a pain reverie and
you sense the patient needs your presence or word. You say, “My God,
we’re in a tough place together.” “You’re talking about something very
real, very strong, circling a deep wound.” We’re very creative. “I appre-
ciate all you’ve gone through, all you’re going through. I wish it could
be easier.” It’s a little like jazz improvisation. Say anything. Your back-
ground, training, reading, thought, feeling provides a sediment for
something relevant to arise. You draw on a lifetime of experience and
work. If you are a new therapist, you draw on the future. Already you
have a “feel” for the work growing, an incipient feel for psychic reality,
a wish to learn by doing. This doing has its own “feel”.
A main thing is to keep on staying with the negativity until some-
thing happens with it inside of you and takes you to another place.
It transforms. If it transforms in you, it will transform in the patient
over time, little by little. What I’m saying is not very satisfactory, no
formula, unless the formula is a little distance combined with a little
attention. I guess one of my “formulas” is stay with it. Stay with it ten,
twenty years. I’ve been with Milton a long time. We keep at it. Then
something happens in the session I tried to speak about. No strategy.
It just happened.
In my book Ecstasy (2001) I write about daily pains, things going
wrong, my inability to handle so much that happens. In Rage (2002)
108 EIGEN IN SEOUL
I know they are going to cause me pain, perhaps severe pain. I’ve
gone through desperate pain with my patients millions and millions
of times and have my own inner ways to make room for it. Sometimes
my psychic horizon expands in ways so that psychic pain takes up less
room. Suffering never vanishes, not for long. Not for the Buddhist in
nirvana. Nor for Saint Thomas in the beatific attitude. Pain does not
go away but you can make/find a bigger field, so that it takes up less
room. Doing this takes time and practice. There is no substitute for prac-
tice. At the end of his New York seminar, Bion responded to a question
about psychoanalysis by saying something like: Keep doing it, just keep
doing it. Something happens if you stay with it long and fully.
In New York I hear a lot about therapist burnout. All the pain one
meets may deaden a therapist. Sometimes I wonder if such a therapist
was dead before, but got worse in this work. I wrote a book called Psy-
chic Deadness (1996) to explore the continuum of aliveness-deadness in
sessions and in daily living. As a therapist, I’ve had to work with much
deadness. Among other things, I describe a kind of staring at the dead-
ness, akin to going into a dark theatre, and as you get used to it, you
begin to see things you didn’t see before. As you see more if it, deadness
becomes more interesting, more variable. Like Darwin studying plants.
The more you look, the more species of deadness appear. You begin to
find different ways that deadness works.
It’s the same with the pain you’re talking about. Pain is like a mush-
room, like a plant. It has many parts, many roots and possibilities. Use
the pain as a stimulus to grow bigger than the pain. That may take
years. Don’t give up. But if you give up, give up temporarily to take a
rest and then come back. Of course, if you find this work is not for you,
that’s another story. There’s plenty to do in life. Doing therapy has its
own special difficulties. You know what? That’s no different from life
itself. It’s a challenge to be with another person. No one solves that.
You can try to live in a cave. Not everyone is suited for a cave. If you’re
going to be with other people, you’re going to get hurt. But you grow
bigger than your hurt. And if the hurt is bigger than you, the hurt is not
all you are. You’ll get hurt in a cave too. Perhaps we have to find what
kind of hurt we’re best suited for.
From a Christian point of view, this requires going through end-
less crucifixions. Crucifixions don’t stop. Maybe they get more intense
and then subside, agony and relief. Something like the way pain
throbs, or sound waves oscillate, a kind of rhythm of pain. If you stay
110 EIGEN IN SEOUL
Question 3
Yesterday I told you about a dream. The yin and yang and the God part
it connects to. Today I’m associating it with the pupil of the eye. I want
to thank you for staying with us, for staring at us, for looking with us,
for inviting us. My question is related to the question yesterday about
the unforgivable mother and Milton’s father. How to live with these
kinds of people? I feel them inside us. We have to live with them. Can
I fight with them? Can I hate them? Can I have compassion for them?
Can I have all of this for them? My feeling now is that I’m afraid to
take them in. And if only you would tell me that I don’t have to hate
them and God would take care all of this, then I feel that I would be
relieved.
Response 3
I wish I could say that it’s all going to end nicely and you’ll have a
very happy ending. But I don’t know. I think that it’s good to have
faith. And you should always return to that, return to faith. But this
doesn’t mean that there’s not tragedy. Life is filled with tragedy. Every
life is a tragic life. No life is without tragic aspects. We share that. So it’s
not a matter of just loving, just hating, or just anything. I get angry
with some patients on some occasions. I might say about parents you
describe, “How awful, I’d like to kill them.” It depends. There are no
rules on this. The main thing is to be flexible and not get caught up in
any one position so that when the next moment changes you automati-
cally change with it. It’s like having a camera that adjusts automatically
to light conditions. Whatever happens, it changes with the condition.
There’s nothing wrong with hating someone at one moment and seeing
something positive in that person in another moment. You shouldn’t
be bound by the idea that if you feel one thing, it’s forever, it’s the only
thing. It’s just a part of the colors on the artist’s palette. What you want
to use, what feels usable for the moment, what color mixtures work is
DAY 3 111
going to change depending on what you’re trying to paint and how you
see things.
Freud says that he artificially blinds himself so that he can see.
Bion says that too. And James Grotstein recently published a book called
A Beam of Intense Darkness (2007). The implication is that it is through
this intense beam of darkness that the psychoanalyst sees.
Well, I see we’re running out of time so you can see that all experi-
ence is frustrating because I didn’t get to share with you any of the
other sessions. But we did get to share intense experience for three days
that I find highly pleasurable. I remember at the end of the seminar
Bion gave in 1978 he makes a remark “How is it that going through
and staying with such painful business ends up being such a pleasure.”
Definitely it is. For me, doing something like this is definitely fun,
psychoanalytic fun. I’m grateful for the chance to do it. Since I see we’re
ending I’d like to end with something that we began with at the begin-
ning of this seminar when I asked “What is the core of a dream?” And
a woman answered, if I recall correctly, the core of a dream is emotional
experience. Let me put it a little differently now. What is a person trying
to do by telling you a dream? An answer is they’re trying to share emo-
tional experience with you, an emotional experience that the person
may not yet know.
I feel honored to share with you the dream of this seminar. And thank
you for having me.
REFERENCES
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