A .

B A N D 1 T
M a rin a A b ram o vi6
John B aldessari
David Blaine
Tony D eL ap
D e re k D elG au d io
Ricky Jay
G lenn Kaino
D en ise M arko nish
M a x IVIaven
Teller
A.BANDIT

A SECRET HAS
TWO FACES

THE COLLABORATIVE WORK OF

GLENN KAINO AND DEREK DELGAUDIO

DELMONICO BOOKS-PRESTEL MUNICH, LONDON, NEW YORK

CONTENTS 10 I BELIEVE IN YOU. YOUR MAGIC IS REAL. 18 ORIGINS OF A.BANDIT
ESSAYS DENISE MARKONISH INTERVIEW BY DENISE MARKONISH

14 MYSTERY LOVES COMPANY

MAX MAVEN

34 A.BANDIT CONTRACT PACT#2A 20101006 48 SET SALE

BELIEFS
36 THE SPACE BETWEEN 54 TORN AND RESTORM

38 A WALK THROUGH CHINA 58 OLD METHODS FOR NEW WARS

66 READY TO BE MADE 84 BILLBOARD

SITES
76 THE MISTAKE ROOM 86 GRAND ARTS

80 LIVE 90 UNTITLED (RICKY JAY)

94 MY HOUSE WILL BE CALLED A HOUSE 118 THE NOTHING HAPPENING

LABOR OF ART
120 RISE OF THE NEW IMAGINISTS
104 TRIALS OF SLYDINI

116 FBD

124 TYRANNY OF VISION 140 ER(DNA)SE, CIRRUS EDITIONS

WITNESS
130 1 84 SECONDS 142 THE GRAND FINALE

136 SAFE
CONTENTS
146 A.BANDIT DECK OF CARDS 172 NOW YOU SEE IT
UTILITY
150 WANDS BYGONE 174 A-RT ACTIVATOR

162 CARTOGRAPHIES 176 THE LINKING RINGS

170 PATIENCE 178 LOCKS

184 RICKY JAY AND JOHN BALDESSARI 223 TONY DELAP

THE OUT-OF-FOCUS GROUP
199 TELLER 233 MARINA ABRAMOVI6

214 DAVID BLAINE

238 SECRETS KEEPING SECRETS 252 ONE OF TWO FACES

SHOWS
248 EXPERIMENTS FROM THE 258 IN & OF ITSELF
SPACE BETWEEN
ESSAYS
10 I BELIEVE IN YOU. The concept of belief is decidedly different from that of faith. What 11
makes it a richer terrain for art, literature, film, and poetry is that belief
YOUR MAGIC IS REAL. inherently contains will and desire. Belief begins with knowledge, start­
DENISE MARKONISH
ing with a kernel of truth and leaving it up to the believer whether or not
they wish to forge onward. In epistemological thinking, belief and truth
overlap. Faith, on the other hand, is blind and amorphous, with connota­
Suppose you awoke one morning with the uneasy feeling tions of observance and obligation. Faith gets tangled in religion, while
that the world had, w hile you slept, somehow slipped belief remains delightfully promiscuous, thus granting it the freedom to
a-tilt and rose to find that your dresser drawers were mys­ be a kind of faith for the faithless. It is in this distinction, between faith
teriously open a fraction of an inch ... that pictures on the and belief, where magic fits in, particularly secular magie, a genre that
wall, shades on the lamps, and books in the case were lays no claims to the supernatural.
askew__ What would be your reaction to such a phenom­ In the history of both religion and magic, the fraternal twins of faith
enon? . . . Would you telephone the police? Would you and belief continually intertwine. The bible itself is full of stories of magic.
pray? Or would you numbly await an explanation, refusing For example, in Exodus God asks Moses and Aaron to produce a marvel,
to attem pt to analyze the event or even to experience it telling Moses:
with your full emotions until you had read the papers, tuned
in the news, heard how experts from the universities were uYou shall say to Aaron, Take your rod and cast it down
explaining the t ilt ___Or instead of fear, bewilderment, before Pharaoh/ It shall turn into a serpent__ ’’ Aaron cast
and anxiety, or in addition to fear, bewilderm ent, and down his rod in the presence of Pharaoh and his courtiers,
anxiety . . . do you imagine that a bright trace of delight, and it turned into a serpent. Then Pharaoh, for his part,
unnamable and indefensible, m ight tickle your spine, sum m oned the wise men and the sorcerers, and the
could you feel in an odd way elated—elated, perhaps, Egyptian magicians, in turn, did the same with their spells;
because, in a rational world where even disasters are famil­ each cast down his rod, and they turned into serpents. But
iar and damn near routine, something of almost fairytale Aaron’s rod swallowed their rods.
flavor had occurred?
—Tom Robbins, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues (1976) Other bible stories tell tales of Solomon and Paul burning magical texts
believed to be heretical. The sixteenth-century Protestant Reformation
In 1817 poet Samuel Taylor Coleridge coined the term "willing suspen­ further reduces the power of magic, deflating Catholicism ’s belief in
sion of disbelief." Discussing the freedom writers have in constructing miraculous signs.
narratives that w aiver between the tru th fu l and the fantastic, he A ce n tu ry after the R eform ation, in An Essay in Human
proposes that "my endeavours should be directed to persons and Understanding ^690), Enlightenment philosopher John Locke would call
characters supernatural, or at least romantic; yet so as to transfer for a shift in the thinking around religious faith, proposing that faith in
from our inward nature a human interest and a semblance of truth God be replaced with belief in God. In his book Modern Enchantments
sufficient to procure for these shadows of imagination that willing sus­
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(2004), magic historian Simon During elucidates Locke's thesis:

pension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith .*4
OO
Coleridge, like Tom Robbins, asks us to stop for a moment to consider Inspectable by conscience rather than reason, faith is not
truth, fantasy, and magic and turn them into poetic faith. This suspension meant to provide rules of conduct but to grant or intimate
th e n is a c la rio n c a llto le tre a s o n fa llb y th e w a y s id e in fa v o ro fb e lie f. .-ts
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sa lvation.. . . As soon as faith is central to religious alle­

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So often skepticism takes hold in the face of belief, causing us to ques­ giance (as it is especially within an individualist sect like
tion every last thing and asking us to find empirical data to support I«. Protestantism), then God is separated from fictionality only
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our assumptions. to the degree that faith is distinct from belief, and lack of
But the keyword in Coleridge's statement is "willing," which allows faith remote from disbelief that can be voluntarily sus­
us to take a leap and see w hat happens when knowledge becomes pended for the purposes of amusement or instruction.
slippery and falls from our grasp. We need not entirely let go of logic, (u From the Reformation onwards, it is faith as opposed to
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but such willingness permits us to retain knowledge while simultane­ co beliefthat limits a fictionality that threatens to extend heav­
ously letting it remain fluid. There is so much to be skeptical about in enward. And the growth of fictionality depends upon the
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2016, as we find ourselves in the midst of a presidential election so cu pliability and porousness of belief.2
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absurd that it seems beyond belief (for example, there appears to be no

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willing suspension or flights of fantasy in Donald Trump's mind). In the l— During goes on to discuss the fidelity of belief, stating that "if someone
face of such extreme politics, we badly need magic and wonder, for only claims to have a belief, then others cannot appropriately doubt whether
they have the power to banish skepticism, gifting us with a belief in belief. this person does in fact have that belief; sentences beginning ‘I believe

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12 that’ are incontestable even though the beliefs themselves are always

sneljorts that say that somethin hasn-t hap>j>ened are always interestin to me, because as w e know, there are k n o w n Imowns; there ai*e things w e k n o w w e know. W e also k n o w
one looks throughou
there are k n o w n u n k n o w n s ; that is to say w e k n o w there are s o m e things w e do not k n o w . ut there are also u n k n o w n u n k n o w n s 丨 the o n s w e don-t k n o w w e don*t know. A n d if

7 W h e n asked about links between Iraq, terroHsm, a n d w s p o n s of m a s s destruction at a U S D e p a r t m e n t of D e f e s e brie

pp. 94-103). In the end, they loaded everything into a shipping crate and 13
contestable .”3 Here again, the intersection of belief and truth create made the contents seemingly vanish, a sly critique of the place where
knowledge that is indisputable to the believer.

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art and commerce, belief and entertainment, meet. Throughout their
In less than tw o centuries, history hurtled from the Reformation project, A.Bandit consistently asks its audience to w illingly suspend
to Locke's belief over faith before coming to rest in C oleridge^ suspen­ their assumptions about art, magie, performance, and disbelief in favor
sion of disbelief. In the middle of this period of questioning and redefining rt-
of creating a space where these constructs can be questioned. A.Bandit

the history of our country a n d other free countries, it is the latter

faith Englishman Reginald Scot, a member of parliament, would write allows for Coleridge’s suspensive device of fictionality while, at the
The Discoverie o f Witchcraft 584). This book was remarkable not only same time, it points to the politics of art and deception. By highlighting
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given the era in which it was w ritten but because it was the first book to these dichotomous relationships A.Bandit allows us to exist in a liminal
disprove w itch cra ft, a pra ctice th a t was deemed a nti-religious. zone, one that calls to mind Donald Rumsfeld’s “known unknowns .’’7

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But more im portantly to the history of secular magic is the fact that

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However, as much as A.Bandit desires to reveal the politics of art

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Scot’s book introduced the world to the act of conjuring, to magic for and illusion, itd o e s n ^a im to banish a sense of wonder. In fact, the mon­
m agick sake. This makes The Discoverie o f Witchcraft the first book to iker is not only a reference to a thieving bandit but is also a sly nod to an
divorce “magic” from religion and a source of evil and to place it within optical phenomenon: Alexander's band, a moment in the sky that truly
the realm of entertainment. This shift toward the theatricality of magic feels like magic. Named after Alexander of Aphrodisias and first

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naturally connects to art, another field enamored w ith illusion and described in 200 AD, Alexander's band references the noticeably darker
willing suspensions. area of sky that exists between the two spectrums of a double rainbow.

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Fast forward to a more present moment. In their exhibition cata­ It is this grey zone, this place where refracted light cannot reach our eyes,
logue M agic Show (2010), w rite r Sally O ^ e illy and artist/m agician which can become a representation of the site of belief. It is in this rare
Jonathan Allen look at contemporary artists who use magic and illusion space that Alexander's band mutates, becoming A(s Band and then,

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in their work and walk the fine line between deception and entertain­ finally, A.Bandit. Kaino and DelGaudio reveal the dark zone in the sky, a

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ment. Allen speaks about ^our concern over the distinction between (

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place where we can assuredly believe in art and magic; tw in perfor­
temporary illusion (from illudare, to play) and permanent deception (from mance spectacles that call for suspending belief and give us permission

that tend to be the diBcult onesa

decipere, to ensnare or trap )."4 By making these distinctions Allen gets (N
bo to push against politics, to live in a world a-tilt, all the while basking in the
at the crux of the suspension of disbelief, for if we are willing to go along .s double rainbow.

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for the ride and believe the magician, we will not feel ensnared, trapped, Perhaps it is best to end with lyrics by the Los Angeles-based
2

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43
or duped, instead we can be entertained by the play of illusion. O'Reilly band Yacht, for they poetically essentialize A.Bandit's mission: "Your
picks up on this distinction as well, illuminating the natural connections magic's real so why aren't you using it / you could have the world for

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between art and magic: "art seems more aligned with the verbs attributed sh yourself / you don’t ever have to worry about losing it / the magic inside

n g in 2002, Defense Secretary Do n a l d Rumsfeld stated:

to theatrical magic, where materiality is made mobile, porous, or other­ с
в of you is infinite .”8 A.Bandit reassures us, harnessing belief in belief and

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wise fluid: to produce, to vanish, to transpose, to transform, to restore, to allowing us to bask in infinite magic inside us all. I believe in them. Their
penetrate, to levitate, to suspend, of clairvoyancy, of physical anomaly.... т
з magic is real.

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the very nature of substance quivers and its solidity becomes doubtful ."5
This quivering goes backto the fluidity and credulousness of belief over
faith and the space where we can be released from doctrine, let illusion
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It is of no surprise then that artist (and trained magician) Glenn

Kaino and sleight-of-hand artist Derek DelGaudio would find each other
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in Los Angeles. In 2010 they formed A.Bandit, a performance art project

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they describe as "a new medium somewhere between art and magie" to 00
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create "psycho-spatial interventions ."6 A.Bandit has performed at art

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venues such as The Kitchen in New York and LAXArt in Los Angeles; in
resisting boundaries, it has also staged interventions at the 2011 Art
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Con. This new medium created by Kaino and DelGaudio translates into
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works like The Mistake Room (2011)at LAXArt Annex, forw hich the audi­ =:
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ence could witness behind glass the duo performing card tricks overand
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over again (see pp. 76-79). Due to the durational and public aspect of lr
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this performance, mistakes were inevitably made, thus revealing the

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human sideofthe magical. A tth e Los Angeles art fairthe duo, with hand­

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MYSTERY LOVES COMPANY
MAX MAVEN
You are probably lucky enough to have never frequented the magicians'
chat groups that are scattered across the internet. Hence, you have
avoided certain topics that crop up repeatedly and are never quite
resolved. One such discussion: Is magic art? Oh, how magicians love to
argue about that topic. (Normal people don't argue about it, not because
they сапЧ, but because they don't care.) It is, in fact, a dispute that pre­
dates cyberspace. As the British conjuring theoretician S. H. Sharpe
wrote back in 1932, "The subject is one of constant controversy, but
neither the ‘ayes’ nor that ‘nays’ appear to make much progress .’1
Well, I have a response that works for me, and this seems to be
an appropriate place to record it.
Asking if magic is art is like asking if the sky is blue. Most of the
time it is, but only if you look at it. Of course, most people don't bother to
look, and they are steered away from looking by magic's own practi­
tioners, most of whom havenft thought to look either. This is sad but
hardly surprising: Sturgeon’s Law is virtually universal.
Partlyas a result of this steered misperception (which might tidily
be referred to as misdirection, but that's a joke for a different essay), in
recent times the very word m agichas become corrupted. For many con­
temporary people, the word immediately brings to mind "something nice
for the children.” But I’m here to say that magic is not for children; in fact,
quite often it is not nice. To repeat my prior accusation, the audience—
— Consider painting. You can make a list of the elements that go into
presumably, th a t’s you— has been led to such puerile associations by
the performers themselves. The magicians of the tw entieth century
were able to accomplish something quite extraordinary: In the space of
less than one hundred years, they managed to take something that is
inherently profound and render it trivial.
Throughout human history, in virtually every culture and in every
part of the world, as societies develop, a specific position w ithin the
comm unity inevitably evolves into being. This role requires someone
who guides and represents the com m unity in th eir life explorations,
which fall into three general categories: natural, aesthetic, and meta­
physical. Anthropologists call that person a shaman. The word likely has
proto-Indo-European roots, evolving through ancient Chinese and
Sanskrit, passing through theTungusic languages of what is nowSiberia,
through Russian and German. Today it is a fairly universal term, for a fairly
universal thing. And those areas of life exploration coexisted, quite com­
fortably, under the guidance and leadership of the shaman.
But over tim e that singular concept split into three things. The
exploration of the natural world became science and technology. The
exploration of the aesthetic world became refined craft and art. The
exploration of the metaphysical world became religion and philosophy.
One unified thing became three, and eventually those three became less
obviously connected, more often than not conceived as independent of
one another.
But that separation took a long time. Not every culture has kept 15
to the same pace, but in the western world, m agick transition into sec­
ular performance began over two thousand years ago. Long after, there
still existed a connecting tissue between those three things. And that
connecting tissue was mystery. In the bygone era, mystery was one of
the comm odities offered by scientists, artists, a/?d theologians. But as
societies have progressed (or at least moved in a different direction),
those roles have changed.
In a speech delivered in NewYorkin 1954, the American physicist
Robert Oppenheimer said, "Both the man of science and the man of art
live always at the edge of mystery." But most scientists— and most art­
ists— have lost this concept. As for modern religions, they have become
rigid dispensaries of answers with very little room for questions. Most of
what is provided from those sources is didactic and/or instructional.
Mystery is defined as something that threatens authority; as such, it must
be conquered or bypassed, not welcomed.
It's up to magicians to maintain that welcome. But sadly, in recent
times the word mystery in the English language has also become cor-
rupted, distorted. I wish we had a better word to play off of. Maybe
something in between the Japanese , ^ / 7/57’ (“ mystery” or “secret”） and
the Spanish amende (“charm” or “magic”). An approach to mystery along
the lines of what the German w riter Johann Wolfgang Goethe said in
trying to describe the Italian violinist Niccolo Paganini, some two hun­
dred years ago: "A mysterious power, which everyone senses and no
philosopher explains." ГИ jum p to the punchline: There is really only one
difference between magic and any other form of artistic expression, and
that is the significance of mystery relative to its other components.
a painter’s work: color, texture, space ，
stroke, size, etc. Somewhere on
that list is mystery. In most cases, it is not near the top of the list, nor is
its presence mandatory, but it's there as an option. Or in music, the list
includes rhythm, harmony, discord, melisma, timbre, silence, and so
on. And again, somewhere on the list is mystery, which may or may not
be employed.
In the creation of magic, all of those same elements are available.
A magician may make use of color, rhythm, silence, space, and every­
thing else. But at the very top of the m agician^ list is mystery. It is
indispensable. Myself, I think that mystery is indispensable to a life worth
living. That said, we who are stranded in the twenty-first century are con­
fined to a world that has largely lost the ability to perceive mystery. Our
technologies advance with fierce rapidity, and our species assimilates
those changes almost as fast.
The Argentine poet Jorge Luis Borges noted that “there is nothing
in the world that is not mysterious, but the mystery is more evident in
certain things than in others.” As the available examples of evidence
dwindle, society increasingly needs magic.
Which is why it is fortunate that A.Bandit is a conjuring collective.
It is not because Kaino’s pieces traffic in illusion, or DelGaudio’s shows
contain overt displays of legerdemain, but because their transactions
are so largely governed by mystery. The nature of their work is such that
we are, at all tim es, aware of these ongoing transactions. M arcel
 16 Duchamp stated that "the creative act is not performed by the artist 17
alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world
by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his
contribution to the creative act.”
(Do you suppose that A.Bandit is a distant cousin to R. Mutt?)
Try to imagine the output of A.Bandit w ithout mystery. I can*t.
Maybe Г т simply not inventive enough. But I think it's because its work
is inseparable from mystery. The American painter Edward Hopper said,
“ If I could say it in words there would be no reason to paint.” Yep. And if
A. Bandit could express it w ithout mystery, w e ll... you can surely finish
that sentence yourself.
The literature of conjuring is surprisingly vast. And while much
of that is devoted to technical information (you’d be amazed at how many
ways there are to produce the four kings from a shuffled pack), there is
a valid body of work devoted to the theories that lie beneath the methods.
Thus we find the English illusionist John Nevil Maskelyne writing in 1911,
"As in painting so also in magic .'1And, moreover, "If matters of pure tech­
nique— mere handicraft—were all we have to discuss, the phrase 'Art in
Magie' would represent a solecism of the first water.'1So there.
ГИ conclude by observing that anti-bad is an anagram oiA.Bandit.
Therefore, A.Bandit is good. What more do you need to know?
i s o oS 3 A 0 1 A H H I S M
 DM: Denise Markonish Interview by Denise Markonish, Glenn Kaino studio, Boyle Heights, California, January 6,2017 19
18 ORIGINS OF A.BANDIT GK: Glenn Kaino
DD: Derek DelGaudio DM: Let’s start at the beginning. Can you each tell me your earliest memories
of both art and magic? Was there something that hooked you?

GK: For several years I would do a magic trick for curators when they came to my studio.
It became sort of a litmus test: if the curator enjoyed it (performance quality notwithstand­
ing), we would have a fun exchange about the vitality and power of art, and if the curator
began to explain the trick to me or tell me what I was doing, while I was doing it, well, those
visits usually were more textbook and academic.

DD: I grew up in Colorado, which is not exactly a major hub for contemporary art. I was
interested in philosophy and politics and became infatuated with didactic comedians like
George Carlin and Bill Hicks. The films and music I enjoyed were made by people I consider
artists. But my knowledge of art in general was limited to what I learned during school field
trips and movies nominated for Oscars. I didn't see how art related to me or what I do.
Then I met Glenn. I had a deep respect and appreciation for him and his work, but
still had little to no interest in the contemporary art world at large. In fact, as someone who
spent every day of his life in countless hours practicing a craft, the more I learned about art,
the more infuriating it became. “You can just find a thing and call it art?” “Some artists don’t
make their own work? What the fuck?!" I knew there was value in it, but couldn't see how it
related to my work. Then I saw Chris Burden's Samson [1985], an installation consisting of
a one-hundred-ton jack connected to a gearbox and a turnstile. The jack pushes two large
timbers against the load-bearing walls of the museum. Each time a visitor passes through
the turnstile to see the piece, the jack expands ever so slightly. Theoretically, if enough
people visit the exhibition, Samson would destroy the building. That struck a chord with me.
The fact that it was both metaphoric and literal blew my mind. It challenged viewers, forcing
them to question the legitimacy of the work itself and consider the integrity of their belief
in it. It was everything I want my work to be.

DM: How did you tw o meet, and what was that first encounter like?

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GK: In 2008 the art world was a mess. After Art Basel Miami, the first art fair I actually
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ffi attended, I decided to suspend my practice and recalibrate. On the plane ride home with
ios s U my form er gallerist, I said I needed something new and that I was going to press pause. He
asked what I wanted to do and 丨blurted out: “ I’m going to hang out with a bunch of magi-
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15 cians!MHe asked me why, and I responded that I thought they might know something about
bo believing in what they do, and that the notion of trading in secrets and learning about
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secrecy was important. When I got back to LA, I shut down the production components of
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my studio and traveled the country for months meeting and studying with some of the best
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magicians in the world.

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At some point in every meeting the magician would tell me, MYou need to meet
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Googled him and found nothing, no entries describing who he was or

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q=J about his work. Actually, there was one listing, a private message board for magicians with
-S a post titled “Who is Derek DelGaudio?” I thought that was great! So we coordinated a
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meeting at the Hollywood Roosevelt, and that first conversation lasted for hours.
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DD: At that time, I was really struggling with my own practice and having trouble iden­
.S tifying as a magician. I was trying to use magic to make statements and communicate ideas.
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Unfortunately, magic is not viewed for its meaning value. There are no academic institu­
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tions for magic, or critical classes. Which means that, regardless of intention or meaningful
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gesture, your work as a magician will be dismissed as nothing more than a cheap form of
service entertainment. The work I was doing had no place in that world.
I met Glenn at the height of this artistic crisis. He told me, "\ want to believe in art
again the way a great magician believes in magic." I told him, "Well, IVe got bad news for
you___" I'd never met a magician who believed in magic w ith the level of conviction, or
relevance, or purpose, that Glenn was talking about. Traditionally, for magicians, ^believing
in magic" is a theatrical device. But actually believing that magic is an essential and neces­
sary part of humanity__ I didn4 know jf it was possible, but I wanted to find out. The next
day, I left the magic world behind and dove headfirst into art.
DM: So from that meeting of the minds, how did you birth A.Bandit? It seems
like right from the start you knew there would be a kinship and desire to collabo­
rate, and also a sense that you needed to create something new, something
between art and magic. What was the conversation like around that?
GK: I think we imm ediately sensed from that meeting that we had a trem endous
amount of alignm ent in mission and ideology, and also a wealth of information that we
instinctively knew we could share. But the real story of those first few weeks was the trust
we developed with each other and the tone we set in our relationship with really clear com­
munication. From the jump, we both said to each other that if this was going to be a lasting
collaboration, we would need to start with trust and a system to smooth out the moments
when we might not be fully in sync. For example, when we started working together, I had
a more public presence than Derek, and not just on Google. I had an art practice of almost
ten years that included some high-profile shows, and Derek, atthattim e, wasa behind-the-
scenes magician's magician. We had a few long nights and came to the conclusion that if
we did our jobs right, overtim e that public-facing level of awareness would totally shift, and
he would be the high-profile magician and I would be the behind-the-scenes conceptual
artist. So with that we created A.Bandit—a dual persona that we could growfrom the ground
up that took the best of both of our practices and turned it into its own thing.
DD: At first, we both approached our work together as a mutually beneficial cultural
exchange. The respect for our individual work allowed us to trust each other, blindly. Glenn
knew he could trust me when it came to magic, and I knew I could trust Glenn when it came
to art. But then something unexpected happened: we both caught a glimpse of a magical
place that only exists on a map when we are in the same room. We knew we wanted to reach
this place and that the only way to get there was together. We needed to start by figuring
out how to make the journey w ithout compromising our own practices, our own individual­
ities. I respected Glenn's work as an artist, and Glenn was sensitive to the fact that I was
struggling with my own practice as a magician. Luckily, we both valued ideas more than
circumstances, and A.Bandit became our collective identity.
GK: I like to say I recognized that Derek was an artist trapped in a magician's history.
That started a long tim e before I met him. I don't know if anyone saw that in him, or, if they
did, they didn't have the tools to nourish it. I think many of his friends instinctively knew he
was an artist, which is why they told me to meet him.
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pa DD: I’ll never forget the night Glenn said those words to me: “You’re not a magician.
v Л0 S N S I H O
You're an artist trapped in a magician's history .11 Brutal. Hearing that was so conflicting
for me, not because I didnft know if he was right, but because I knew that he was. It had
nothing to do with rather being an artist than a magician. It has everything to do with what
I value. I have always valued the metaphoric and conceptual aspects of magic. I fell in love
2
1
with what magie can do, as opposed to being a magician. After that, I had to figure out new
ways of looking at my relationship with magic. The irony is, I am more proud of being a
magician today than I was before Glenn said that to me. Now I understand what being a
magician mea 门s to me.
DM: But that moment can only come with trust. It is clear that you both admired
one another and trusted one another’s conceptual positioning, but true personal
trust is something entirely different, and something that is frankly really difficult
for most collaborators. Was there a moment when you realized you trusted each
other in this deeper way, no questions asked?
GK: It’s tricky, because magicians mostly work alone; it’s like a weird, loose cabal of
people who unwillingly trade secrets. The same is often true of artists. As you said, collab­
oration not built on trust is doomed to fail, and IVe been part of artists' collectives that have
unraveled because of these issues. But I can pinpoint a specific moment when this trust
became apparent. About a year into working together, Derek and I were organizing an
evening performance at the Magic Castle in LA (see pp. 34-35). This was the first thing
we did together publicly, and we were negotiating the fact that I was exploring magic from
the side of the art world and Derek was coming in from a public-interface perspective.
The show involved a sit-down w ith some friends from both the art and magic
worlds. We talked about art and magic, and Derek did a small performance. Jeffrey Deitch,
who was the director of LA MOCA [Museum of Contemporary Art] at the time, was there. I
had just met Jeffrey through China Chow. And here's the thing: no one from MOCA has ever
come to my studio, and I have worked in LA my whole career. So after Derek and I finished
the performance， I said to him: “Trust me, this is only asymmetrical for a nanosecond.”
DD: YouYe forgetting the part before the show when I was skeptical about how I would
be viewed by the art world. I remember saying, *Tm going to invest all this tim e into this
project, and it’s good for Glenn because it’s art-world stuff. But there’s no place for me in
that world and there’s no money in it, so why?” Glenn had responded， “ Fuck that, we just
need to do it.”
I understand that now, but at the tim e we hadn’t known each other very long. I had
no idea who Jeffery Deitch was, so I said to Glenn, "Look, dude. Г т going to commit to really
giving us a chance and giving it my all. But I know you're smart enough to fuck me over and
waste my tim e because 丨don’t have the opportunities in this world. So I'm begging you,
please don’t fuck me. Please, if you’re going to do that just tell me now.” Glenn responded ，
“Absolutely, of course, I’m in it. Let’s do this together." And then we did the performance.
GK: And do you remember what my response was afterward?
DD: Absolutely! One thing I did at the end of the night was made China get out of
her seat and start weeping. It was like she saw a ghost, but really, something magic had
happened.
Then, as we walked out of the room Jeffrey said to me, "Here's my business card,
if you ever want a tour of MOCA, Г т happy to show you. I'd love to hang out."
HSIN0MVsHSIN3a
I looked at Glenn, and he looked at me and just said, "Remember that thing you
were saying earlier? You’re talented enough to fuck me so w e’re even.” And that became
the basis of our relationship.
DM: That is amazing, and certainly levels the playing field!

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2
DD: And that mutual respect is important, but so is undersanding that we want more,
that the power of magic in the moment isn’t enough, because we want to create something
with lasting value.
GK: Exactly. We w ill nurture this thing and our relationship and each other with that
level of trust, respect, and love.
W hafs interesting here is that magie, like trust or respect, are unnamable. That is
the very core of A.Bandit. The name even comes from this place. Remember that "Double
Rainbow Guy” video on YouTube， where the guy sees a double rainbow and is struck by
such a sense of wonder and beauty he begins to weep, saying, *4Whoa! Double rainbow!
What does it mean?" Derek and I saw this and lamented that neither of us had seen any­
thing in nature, or anywhere for that matter, that evoked that type of profound emotional
response. So we chose the name A.Bandit， which is short for Alexander’s band—the area
of darkness between the two spectrums of a double rainbow.
But really the name is a proxy, a fake name to name the unnamable. It’s a way of
having the world call us something that we don't want to be called ourselves, as opposed
to having the world define us.
DD: Ifs a way of protecting each other from a world trying to pin us down. Thafs why
ifs not just lip service when I tell people that my favorite magician is Glenn Kaino. Because
the traditional magic world doesn4 know Glenn, they wonder how we are defining magic.
This immediately complicates things, which is always good.
DM: So all of this led to that trust you now have as collaborators, but I think
there is more to it than that. Can you talk about what you each brought to the table
both in concept and expertise? I find it interesting that both of you use the terms
“ practice” and “craft” interchangeably to speak about about art and magie. It’s
almost like a shared terminology.
"Practice," as a verb, is what you do to get better at something. "Practice,"
as a noun, is the thing you do: a profession. You have to practice to have a practice.
Craft is somewhat synonymous with a practice. For something to be well crafted,
it is finely honed or practiced. “Craft” is often a dirty word in the art world, but it’s
something that you are both great practitioners of.
Was that something you recognized in each other, because while it's clear
you are having fun together, it’s even more evident that this sense of play comes
out of a mutual respect for a seriousness of approach.
GK: It's really interesting that you bring up how we use those words with a common
understanding of what they mean. In fact, it happens a lot in our work that we take an idea
or term that is often very narrowly defined within the fields of study of each individual system
of production and we come to find a commonality.
For instance, craft in the art world signifies a lower-value trade, sans intellectual
component. Craft art as differentiated from conceptual art. Then there's having craft and
figuring things out. But what I'm excited about hearing and thinking about for the first time
llz
is that in this space that we play in, we've come to these common definitions.
av v d ossoIHO
You are the first "outsider" that has noticed that we have this ability to speak cross­
CQ tongue. I don't ever question what it means when Derek uses these words, and Г т sure that
he doesn't question what I mean. What we have done is taken this commonality and created
a new set of value systems that correlate to the hybrid we have created.
2
3
DM: But I also like that craft is something finely honed, and if you think of practice
in the traditional sense, it's something that youYe learning. In the professional
sense it becomes the definition of the job, but I like that both terms have that fluidity
to them. Add to that the way in which you two cross genres and start using them
as a point of commonality, it opens up these definitions to even more iteration.
GK: Yes, ifs important to us that the layers of meaning are always present, not hidden
or veiled.
DD: I also think that something we have in common is a long-term view of things. We
try to attack what's in front of us, but simultaneously, weYe thinking about how the work
will feel when we look back at it. One hundred years from now, what do you want your proj­
ect, your life project, your contribution to look like? Your practice is how you can achieve
that. So, weVe had similar goals in terms of longevity.
DM: To that point, I have noticed you both have an understanding that doing
things the right way takes time. A lot of people get restless, thinking, 4,l want to do
this in six m onths/’ but the other side to that is saying, “ I want to do this and ifs
going to take four years， so I’m going to give myself the tim e needed." That doesn’t
mean you canft be nimble; instead, you can have both the short and long term in
sight, which allows for permission to work fast and slow.
DD: Exactly. Ifs important that we have the ability to work very quickly on a given proj­
ect, while also maintaining that duality of working to get to the long game.
DM: Do you think that fluidity comes from the fact that, Derek, you come from
a performative background, whereas Glenn, you come from a studio practice,
which is inherently longer term?
GK: Again, this brings us back to the duality of things. A.Bandit magnifies this. In my
studio practice, the making of work exists one way, whereas when I do a studio visit, it is
very much a performance.
Add to that the fact that Derek's performances operate in real time at performance
speed but his thinking behind the work operates at studio-practice speed. So all of this
becomes imbedded in the work we do together. It's funny. Every time a curator comes to
my studio I am performing, and every tim e Derek leaves the stage and goes home, he is
actually at the studio.
DM: In some ways that means you both have to let your guard down and let
the performance be what it will be, let it be more conceptual or vulnerable, even.
DD: Well, that is really one of the things that opened up my own work, my practice as
a performer, as a magician, was the idea of not putting all of the weight on the performance.
And that means you need to have a different pillar supporting the work. If ifs not in the
performance or technique, then what is it?
KSIMOMHVIM 38шиа
That is why focusing on the conceptual aspects became really important to me,
which is something Glenn and I share. But ifs tricky because performing magic usually has
no meaning, and performance art—well, I w on't speak for Glenn here— but ГИ come out
and say it, objectively … performance art sucks.
As performance, it's fucking terrible.

DM: 丨totally agree. It’s so hyperaware of itself that it fails in the wake of
navel-gazing.
DD： It doesn’t have to suck， and it doesn’t have to make itself so inaccessible. What I
have noticed is that if ifs not interesting in the moment, then you have to have an inherent
understanding of why i f s important or valuable. As opposed to it being immediately capti­
vating or amazing or fascinating or humorous or fun, and then allowing that to be a point of
intrigue leading to a bigger idea. In the first instance you have to have inside knowledge,
whereas in the second you gain knowledge, which is more satisfying.
I watched Glenn, even before I met him, fighting against performance art. He
knows the work is important and has respect for it, but I could also tell that he didn’t want
to engage in traditional performance. IVe watched him improve as a performer, as an actual
performer who could stand on stage and perform as opposed to just doing the gesture.
GK: And that's funny because it's a mechanical thing, but it also points to the fact that
performance art sucks because the apparatus of it sucking is about the contradiction of
accessibility, which goes right back to the conversation about craft.
To that extent, where performance art so often fails is that it leans so heavily on
conceptual value but doesn't take into consideration that you are in front of people, doing
something. Having a great idea doesn4 mean it w ill make a great performance. You can
dissect it all you want, and the conceptual backing may be solid, but If the actual lived
experience betrays the idea, then you are in trouble.
Whereas, sometimes in an object, if you ruminate and look at it long enough—
— say,
Marcel Duchamp’s urinal_ you go, wow, okay, I never considered that my looking at a urinal
would be so profound and grow more so over time. But the lived experience of watching a
bad performance is horrible， and you just don’t recover.
DM: The other thing that frustrates me about performance art is that it is for
a very narrow, privileged audience and therefore doesn4 reach the level of human­
ity A.Bandit tries to achieve.
DD: That humanity, that is the biggest part, the key for us.
DM: I think that is why what you do is so hard to describe, because humanity
is ineffable. I remember when I sa\N In & Of Itself at the Geffen Playhouse in LA, I
tried to explain to a 什iend what it was. I said, "It wasn’t really theater, it wasn’t really
magic; it was art, it was a performance, but it wasn't performance art.,f
DD: Ha ha, it lives up to the title! But that also points to my criticism of performance art
and the realization that I was being deprived of something greater because of how uninter­
esting performance art was. And it's infuriating because there are wonderful ideas in
performance art, and I had to read a lot and talk to a lot of smart people to start to understand
what these ideas were, or could be.
Г т a curious person, so I dug deeper. But not everyone will do that, so this inac­
cessibility deprives some people from finding expansive meaning. Instead, what I strive for
is something that can really affect and live inside of you, an experience where you walk away
awed and evaluate it intellectually afterward. In this equation experience is first, which leads
to an intellectual understanding that is deeper because the experience is so visceral.
Otherwise, it's just empty intellect.
2
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DM: Do you think there’s a similar criticism that could be said of the magic
world?
DD: Actually, it's the exact opposite. In magic there is no meaning value whatsoever.
DM: So it’s just pure performance?
DD: Spectacle, pure performances, absolutely. Ifs literally the opposite end of the spec­
trum. You feel wonderful in the moment and think, noh, that was amazing!" and then you
walk away and say, “ Let’s go get a hot dog.”
With magic shows, you stop thinking about it the second you leave, or you shift to
thinking, “ I wonder how he did that?” And that is not the question you want them leaving
with. So ifs totally accessible but completely devoid of meaning.
DM: The way you talk about this reminds me of the difference between curi­
osity and wonder: curiosity is centered around fact-finding, whereas wonder is
more ineffable, it's about being comfortable in the unknown. The two are related,
but ifs almost like a Venn diagram where the overlapping realm between wonder
and curiosity is humanity, or magic even. That seems to me essential to what
A.Bandit is about.
GK: Exactly! In fact, weVe always thought about that diagram as an inversion.
Traditionally, you only look at the Venn diagram as a frontal, flat plane. But what about look­
ing at it from the inside? From that point you can laugh at everyone who's on the outside.
We’re doing that.
DM: It makes you consider the emotive, the “why” of how things resonate. You
can intellectualize it or you can just be entertained, but if you have both, well then,
it’s something else altogether.
DD: We are always asking ourselves, “What is that thing that makes it resonate?”
GK: And that willingness to not know is certainly part of it. But what I do know is that
we're tapping into the potential of those boundaries being broken. The funny thing is that,
and I think Derek will agree, when we work together in the studio it's as awesome as when
we perform.
In some ways, working together without an audience is a kind of performance. We
sit in a room, and whether it's for any of the projects in this book, or the performances, or
the exhibitions, we'll start off slowly, warming up to the engagement of that moment. And
then we literally start performing a whole amplification of ideas together in that moment.
And it really is an amplification. For instance, Derek will say something and then
ГИ say something, and soon enough we are volleying back and forth and it will get to the
point where w e’re both contributing. Then we look back and realize, “Oh, that’s awesome,”
or “That feels right.”
H S I N C m v i 3 a
DM: Ifs a rare kind of exchange, but from that point ofvolleying, where do you
go next? How do those ideas evolve into things?
GK: I think there are tw o ways weVe thought about it. The first involves a responsive
process, or responsive to an opportunity or engagement. The second is generative, which
is the work we continue to do irrespective of opportunities.

One of the responsive ideas came when we were asked to make a deck of cards.
Derek and I sat down in front of a computer and in six hours came up with an amazing deck
of cards that is now a collectible item and is more elaborate than 99 percent of custom-art
or magic decks on the market. We started by considering the o pportunity... what it means
for us to design a deck. We deconstructed the thing, understanding its nuances 一from the
cards to the labels and case. We then applied both of our expertises on top of that concep­
tually generative process and came out with something truly unique.
DD: We considered every angle: What does it mean to open a deck? What are you doing
in that process? What is under that label? This allows us to find the opportunities.
And we both level with each other and figure out what w e’ve missed, allowing us
to unearth the secrets of the project—not a magic secret, but a metaphoric one. These are
the kinds of insider-joke moments we love, and ifs even more satisfying when someone
else digs deep and finds it. That journey, that exploration forthe viewer, is part of the excite­
ment. There is more behind the next door, and we are both constantly fighting to find that
next door and give someone else the key to unlock it.
DM: It is satisfying to reward the person who is in it as much as you are. You
know that 90 percent of the population is going to miss that little moment, the
easter egg. But for the 10 percent who get it ，
it’s a rush.
DD: It really is about belief: belief systems and people's belief in things. And we con­
sistently strive to challenge these belief systems in an effort to provide the opportunity to
believe in something more.
DM: I'm glad you bring up belief here. When you first asked me to be involved
with this book, I knew I wanted to write about believing and belief. You don't have
to believe in God, or magic, or art, but if you believe in belief then your eyes are
wide open. If your eyes are wide open then you are willing to take a leap of faith, to
find the hidden clues. And while A.Bandit uses the languages of art and magic,
what you are really doing is asking people, or giving them permission, to believe
in belief.
DD: People are rarely offered an opportunity to unapologetically believe in a magical
world. There are so many stigmas attached to “ belief,” I think when people are given a safe
space in which to believe, to take the leap, they’ll gladly take it. I’m not sure we encourage
people to take a leap so much as weVe provided them the opportunity to do it. We never
offer a ledge we aren't willing to leap off ourselves.
There’s also a practical element of the process, which is blind trust. I don’t know
if it's true the other way, but any tim e Glenn says something is not right, there's not a single
doubt in my head that he’s right.
GK: Oh, it’s both ways.
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DD: I then evaluate why he’s right so I can see it for myself. I may fight like hell to get to
that point of understanding but I know Glenn is right because that is why he's h ere... to be
right when I'm wrong.
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ossOIHO
DM: And vice versa.
2
7
GK: It goes both ways, for certain. I recall a story about when the Warner brothers got
started. Apparently they never fought and got everything done because they stood by one
another's certainty. Similarly, when working with us on In & Of Itself, Frank [Oz] said that
watching us was like seeing the chemistry he felt with Jim Henson when they were working
on The Muppets. Not a bad comparison at all!
DD: He also pointed out that it's as much about anarchy as it is creative synergy. He
said, “you guys are anarchists,” and that’s what he was drawn to_ We get most excited when
we know we’re breaking something.
GK: For Derek and I, the trust is so strong that whoever has an opinion is always going
be right because otherwise we wouldn't have an opinion. Even with our educations in art,
magic, and performance, it's often better to attack a problem together. There's a friendly
goading as each of us works hard to figure out who is going to be right each time!
DM: And sometimes you don't know why a thing isn't right or why you have
your opinion. It is only through tru st， both in yourself and the other person you’re
w orking with, that you don't have to explain why something does or doesn't
feel right.
DD: Exactly. Then a few years ago, on the foundation of this blind trust, we had that
magical moment when we realized we started to be right in each other's field.
GK: Oh, totally. Ha ha, that was awesome!
DD: Glenn would bring up something that had to do with concealment, secrecy, or
performance nuance, and I might bring up something that had to do with aesthetics or the
meaning value, and we were both right.
DM: That’s amazing.
DD: And it’s jarring.
But, at the end of the day, this collaboration has only made my beliefs and convic­
tions stronger about whatever I thought about both art and magic and collaboration. But at
the same time, I spent my life learning about con artists and hustlers, so half or more of the
art w o rld ...
DM: Definitely more than half.
GK: Only the ones you hear about.
But that strengthening of one's own convictions, that's why we do what we do, to
create an active platform that can address art, magie, or even politics.
On their surface— and this is an exaggerated stereotype— both artists and magi­
cians are part of shitty service entertainment for hire, or are the definition of the out-of-touch
fake intellectual who leads culture. If you ask yourself “where do you net out,” then 丨
think
H S I N O W H VH
that thafs where we can maximize the potential of both. This frees us to leave out everything
about what doesn’t work.
WSINwa
DD: There’s also the negativity of the service industry not being a bad thing, it’s just a
truth that needs to be recognized. I think the problematics of this are ignored.
 2
8
DM: It s all about how you handle it. For instance, as a curator ，I’m in the art
w orld， like it or not. So with everything I do, I like to say “fuck you” to the art world.
It's that poking, prodding, and pushing that is essential, for it allows us to be in
the world and to look at it critically. It’s that inverted Venn diagram again. It，s
informed anarchy.
DD: Exactly, and I would add that what is important is that both art and magic, even if
we throw out the discriminatory aspects of our usage of those terms, rely on presence. That
is a given, and then we can subvert it from there.
For instance, you can't fully comprehend magic on YouTube or in a book, and you
can’t look at art in a book. Sure, technically you can, but you’re not engaging with art if you
just see it in books; it makes looking at Guernica like looking at Saving Private fucking Ryan.
The same goes for the performed thing: it's impossible to really see what is happening if
it’s not live.
I think we acknowledge the potential effect this has on both art and magic, and we
also recognize that this reinforcement of presence was not being realized. When art is sold
on Instagram and magic is traded on YouTube, you’re like, “Wow， this is not human.”
DM: What does it mean then to put this all into a book?
DD: Well, the book is meant to be a performance.
DM: Of course it is!
DD: Everything about this book from the design to the dialogues within it is in service
of making it an experience, something active.
GK: Absolutely. We know that not everyone is going be able to see us work live, so it's
important that the book be just another performance. It's not documentation per se, rather
ifs specifically crafted to be performed in the book. It was also an opportunity to have a
public dialogue about art and magic.
DM: When we first met, Glenn, you told me about this project. I tried to look
it up online, and found very little information. I quickly realized that this was
intentional.
Looking through the galleys of the book, you pointed out how the images
are cropped so that youYe not giving it all away or just presenting the past as doc­
umentation. Instead, your reader has to perform the book, to have an experience.
GK: The other thing that is happening here is that weYe learning as we go and essen­
tially creating a new discipline. If I were to talk about our work from the art-world side, I'd
say we Ye learning to craft a spectacle, weYe learning to craft in real-time performance that
is both amazingly substantial and also nuanced.
And from the magic world you could say (and people do say this), aWow, those
llaNV
performances are more artistic and have more depth and meaning than any other magic
performance/' For us, being able to talk about one work from both of these directions is the
CQ most exciting moment.
v
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O S N o I H O
DM: Was that the impetus for the conversations in this book? Did you see it
as a way to bring together the people who you thought were stepping over the
art/magic line?
GK: Yes, that was the idea. It sort of backfired, though.
For instance, one of the first people I thought of was Tony DeLap, the California
abstract expressionist who trained everyone from Chris Burden to James Turrell. In 1971
he did a performance where he levitated a woman at a gallery. I mentioned this to Derek
and he said ，“ Funny，
there’s a guy named Tony DeLap who did the Dai Vernon interviews.”
DD: Vernon was a very famous and well-regarded magician, and these are the key texts
about him. So I knew Tony as a guy who interviewed a magician and Glenn knew him as a
conceptual artist with an interest in magic!
DM: I love that. It perfectly illustrates your whole relationship.
GK: So we approached Tony with the hope that he would be a key figure in tracing the
lineage of what we were doing. When we started talking, though, he admitted, HOh, yeah,
I’m a hobbyist.” Magic was just a device he used, and that was that.
DD: The difference is, he was talking about tricks, not magic.
But the work we do with A.Bandit demands the other side be up to par with each
other’s expectations, and then those expectations become shared. So, I’m not going do a
magic thing with Glenn that sucks and he’s not going do an art thing with me that sucks.
DM: Exactly. Why would you actively ruin your own reputations?
DD: So Tony doesn^ mind using, literally using, a trick to do an art piece, but he is not
performing magic.
GK: This is not to say that if a magic space between Tony DeLap's studio and Dai
Vernon’s practice had been created, that they could not have done something special. But
the relationship wasn't there for them to be generative together.
DM: Again, it’s about a leap of faith and trust. Most people aren’t willing to
be vulnerable. A lot of artists— and I can’t speak to magicians but suspect it’s
similar— are so insular. They think， “I have to keep everything close to my chest.”
And if you are merely worried about protection, then you put yourself in a box and
you can’t jump.
DD: That is why these conversations were so disappointing, whether it was the one
with Tony or the one between John Baldessari and Ricky Jay. None of these people were
willing to believe, so instead it became about the unwillingness to discuss belief, which is
fascinating in and of itself, and a perfect counterpoint to what Glenn and I are doing.
DM: I rememberthe last time I sawyou both it was minutes afterthe Baldessari/
Jay dialogue convening, and you were both a little shell-shocked.
DD: I've spent so much of my life chasing ghosts, chasing ideas of people. I'd heard
HSsOWHVsalssaia
about Ricky Jay and I read interviews w ith him and articles about him, and I chased him.
Eventually I realized that I was chasing an imaginary person, a dream of someone that
doesn’t really exist.
DM: It’s hard to realize that you have to kill your idols. Because you’re not
chasing the real thing anyway, so you have to get rid of the ghosts.
30 GK: Chasing Ghosts is a good title for that interview se ction ... though right now we 31
are calling it “ 〇ut-of-Focus Group.”

DM: Ha, that is great, too!

Let's leave the blurry ghosts behind and end back with belief and how
uncomfortable people are with the unnamable. I find the duality in your work fas­
cinating (and maybe these conversation subjects were a bit threatened by that
fluidity). Magic is a named thing, so is art, but by combining them, you create a
hybrid that is unnameable, that must be believed. Ifs unnameable because you
have left ineffability intact and opened a space that gives permission to ask ques­
tions and not expect answers.

GK: Yeah, exactly. This is why it's almost impossible to talk about what we do. I remem­
ber early on we were working on a project, and I did an interview in the LA Times in which
I used the name of a trick in the story. One of our 什iends, a magician, said， “You can’t name
it." If you call it by its name, ifs findable in whatever abstract way, and I thought, wow, th afs
an amazing lesson.

DD: I think this is where definitions get fuzzy, because what we*re talking about here
is creating actual magic, which cannot be defined other than fuckin’ magie.
It’s not science， you can’t name it ■

GK: It’s c a p ita l“ M ” Magie.

DM: It's all caps MAGIC.

DD: It is， and if it has a name but it’s not magie ，

it，s something else. It，s a technique, it，s
a move, it’s an idea; it’s not magic. But if it，s “ I don’t know,’， then it，s magic.

DM: It’s belief.

DD: Yes, and also magic is a synonym for hope, and a place of potentiality. While Glenn
and I work in the present tense, we strive to get to a place that can never be. We want to get
there so we can let other people in.

DM: Certainly hope is something we need more and more of.

GK: Now more than ever.

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BELIEFS
A.BANDIT CONTRACT 蜗 1 This early encounter with the pu 丨
which took place at the Magic Ci џ т iduring an event organized by tf
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PACT#2A 20101006 j pledged their support to an abst belief system that took its power
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When I see two rainbows

I will focus on the space between.

When I peek, I will still play.

When I play, I will still peek.
A. Bandit A. Bandit A. Bandit
Boredom is not just counter-revolutionary,
it is a virus. Let's eradicate boredom.

If I believe it to be, it will be magie.

If I believe it to be, it will be art.

厶
Tomorrow I will imagine what the
person next to me is doing when I
am not present, but I will not ask,
therefore, I will not be wrong.

I will clap while I think. . P j Ђ -

I will think while I clap-

I understand that my humanity is what

activates all art and magie, and I will
use my powers often and generously.

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36 THE SPACE BETWEEN figs 12 One of A.Bandit's first public performances, The Space Between was the first experiment with what would
become its signature two-man format (see also pp. 248-251). One-part studio visit and background and one-
A.Bandit. SoHo House, West Hollywood, 2011
part magic show, the performance began the decade-long dialogue about belief systems between A.Bandit
and the public that continues today. The show began with DelGaudio and Kaino revealing unknown facts
about themselves to each other, in front of the audience, allowing everyone to be in on the foundation of a
lasting partnership.
38 A WALK THROUGH CHINA
A.Bandit. LAXArt Annex, Los Angeles, 2011;
The Kitchen, New York, 2011
— 12 The art space LAXArt opened an annex in Hollywood and offered A.Bandit the first residency of its new 39
program. In lieu of a ribbon-cutting ceremony, LAXArt wanted an inaugural ceremony to open the space.
In doing so, and in line with the consistent challenges to its value systems, the duo created A Walk Through
China, which was an opening-night party, a conceptual test, and a symbolic affirmation of the meaning value
the space was meant to offer (see also pp. 256-257).
This performance began with an expository description of Marco Polo, acknowledging his efforts and
celebrating his work throughout the country of China. The duo then brought China Chow, a surprise collabo­
rator, up from the audience.
In 1 2 7 1 M a r c o P o l o s e t s a i l f o r C h i n a .
Seventeen years l a t e r , h e r e t u r n e d to
his h o m e in V e n i c e , a n d , w h e n a s k e d h o w
his t r i p was, his s t o r i e s w e r e s o ^ x t r a o r ^
d i n a r y t h a t no o n e b e l i e v e d him. He s p o k e
of black rocks that wou l d catch fire and
b u r n f o r h o u r s , c l o t h e s l a c e d w i t h g ol d ,
a n d p l a n t s t h a t w o u l d h e a l t h e sick.
4 m x r
DELGAUDIO
He b e c a m e k n o w n as “t h e m a n o f a m i l l i o n
lies .f, T o w a r d the end of his life a w r i t e r
asked M a r c o about his t r i p t h r o u g h C h i n a . .
He r e s p o n d e d , “I s t o p p e d t e l l i n g people*
h a l f o f t h e t h i n g s I w i t n e s s e d o v e r there'
b e c a u s e t h e y s i m p l y w o u l d n rt b e l i e v e m e .11
We w a n t e d t o t a k e y o u on t h a t j o u r n e y a n d
g i v e y o u a s t o r y so a m a z i n g t h a t , t o m o r ­
row ; when you tell people about your
靡 :泰 :
trip, t h e y w i l l c a l l y o u a liar. N o w , we
r e a l i z e t h a t it is u n r e a l i s t i c a n d f a r
t o o e x p e n s i v e to t a k e a l l o f y o u t o C h i n a ,
so w e h a v e b r o u g h t C h i n a to you. P l e a s e
w e l c o m e C h i n a Chow!
S I
 figs. 3-7 standing beside their guest, they began to hum the Europe song “The Final Countdown.” They then proceeded 41
to perform the classic Sawing a Lady in Half illusion. Once Chow was cut in half, the entire audience was
encouraged to walk between the two halves of “China” in a symbolic journey and in an act of com plicity with
what was to take place in that space.
VNIHOHBOHHIMIVMV

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SET SALE Set Sale is a piece that appeared in a series of works performed at The Kitchen in New York (see also 49
pp. 252-257). In the middle of the show, an auctioneer from Christie's walked on stage and began to auction
A.Bandit. The Kitchen,
off an unidentified artwork from A.Bandit. There were no pieces to be viewed, and the two performers stood
empty handed, hoping that people would be game. The yet-to-be-seen piece sold for $1,200, and the lucky
w inner was invited to join the performers on stage. DelGaudio brought out a sales contract from his coat
pocket and had the buyer sign it to seal the transaction. Kaino pulled a flattened, empty bag from his coat and
then magically produced a spray-paint can from it, while DelGaudio, with a snap, transformed the contract into
a stencil that read "A.Bandit" and held it up to the buyer's chest.

%
5-

V ^
50 figs. 4- 6 After a moment's pause, the buyer realized that the artwork he purchased was his own shirt, destined to be 51
marked with the duo’s moniker. He smiled at the realization and said, “go for it!” Kaino sprayed his shirt as the
audience cheered.

l
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 52 Later that evening, w hile A.Bandit celebrated in a nearby bar, the man walked in. The A.Bandit team
thanked him for his participation. After letting the duo know he was going to frame the sweater, the buyer
said, “ No, thank you, guys! When do you ever get the chance to prove that you 丨
re a believer and that you’re
awesome in public!”
W1VS 13S
 figs. 1-2 Kaino has been obsessed with one particular trick ever since he first saw it. The effect is that a magician tears 55

54 TORN AND RESTORN up a newspaper then magically heals it, restoring it to its original form. Kaino initially thought that his attrac­
tion to the trick was simply because it is such a visual effect. You can really see the paper restore itself in front
Glenn Kaino, 2010. Cut found newspaper, dimensions variable of your eyes. When properly performed, it is remarkable.
Magician and author Max Maven was generous enough to give Kaino some more perspective about
the conceptual history of magie, speaking about how certain tricks tapped into fundamental narratives, in this
case the narrative of resurrection. Already a collector of vintage newspapers for years, Kaino started to cut
letters of the alphabet into them, crafting the way that pieces hang from the shapes of the letters. This work
is an a rtis fs version of that trick, half-performed. Torn historic markers of a distraught world. Ideas and
people that are dead or dying, pre-resurrection, if they end up so lucky. A crisis in suspended animation, impli­
cating the audience as witnesses at the moment of observation.

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58 OLD METHODS FOR 喻 16 We begin the year in a time of heightened crisis, a moment of contradiction during which our belief systems 59
about the world are being challenged daily. Today, more than ever before, there is a need to explore the para­
NEW WARS doxical, to be present while being invisible, and to escape while infiltrating.
A.Bandit. Storefront for Art and Architecture, New York, 2017 ,lLetters from Prison,'1Antonio Gramsci's seminal work, presented to the world an understanding of the
conflicted and complex functions of cultural hegemony, and was a critical tool for freedom that was created
in a moment of confinement.
Cabaret Series: Old Methods for New Wars \n \Wpresent several magical performances as metaphorical
'letters from prison/ The performances demonstrate the power of magic as a tool to understand the nature of
transformation, freedom, and ultimately, hope.

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66 READY TO B E MADE 叱丨 Itstitl was a conceptual 67
exerc •Bandit as an “ inverted magie shop.”
Л.Bandit. LAXArt Annex, Los Angeles, 2011

sails
 Five objects— a pair of shoes, a map, a film canister, a flashlight, and a Jenga tower—were offered to the public 69
as yet-to-be-created magic tricks. The audience was asked to write down a title, or an effect, for each object
and pin it to the wall surrounding it.
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figs. 13- 15 As the ideas were compiled, layers of possible functions imbued these once-inert objects with possibility as 75
the audience became the magicians. The best title: “Guillaume en Egypte is hiding in Shinjuku.”
76 THE MISTAKE ROOM 如 ]-2
A.Bandit. LAXArt Annex, Los Angeles, 2011; The Kitchen,
New York. 2011
78 The first iteration took place at LAXArt, the second, pictured here, at The Kitchen (see also pp. 253-254). 79
The Mistake Room took the form of a twenty-square-foot room equipped with a one-way mirror from which
the audience could watch various versions of A.Bandit performances, w ith either of them situated on one
side or the other.
The Mistake Room concept was then expanded as a series of exhibitions, the first held during the
A.Bandit residency at LAXArt; eventually it grew to become a fully independent non-profit art space in
downtown Los Angeles. The fundamental idea of encouraging failure and of safely experimenting started
between two people trusting each other and has now been experienced by thousands.
 •For his conceptual magic performance on Twitter, DelGaudio set up shop at the LAXArt Annex space. Th^
Iwindows were covered in newspapers to create an informal black-box theater in which DelGaudio performe«
DelGaudio. LAXArt Annex, Los Angeles, 201A
traditional magic show for an audience of fifty. (The performance was also projected on a large screen]
{mounted to the outside of the gallery.)

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84 BILLBOARD 如 1 Sitting atop the location of their residency at LAXArt Annex in Hollywood was an empty billboard used for
public-service announcements. The tw o couldn’t resist and convinced the powers that be to allow them to
Л.Bandit. Cahuonga Boulevard near Sunset Boulevard, for serve the public in a new and mysterious way.
LAXArt Annex, Los Angeles, 2011
Once given the billboard, A.Bandit chose to feature a large reproduction of the back of one of their
playing cards. This was a powerful symbol of the potential of the unknown, as the card's face would never be
revealed. There was rum or of an A.Bandit perform ance in which the featured card was flipped over and
revealed, but if that was true, no documentation was ever found.

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Glenn Kaino. 2010. Playing cards, installed dimensions
variable. Hammer Museum, Los Angeles. G ift of the Artist
and LAXART, in honor of Ricky Jay
%л This portrait of the magician Ricky Jay was created using the technique of throwing cards made famous by Jay 91
himself in his book Cards as Weapons (1977). In Untitled (Ricky Jay), playing cards, seemingly tacked to the
wall in random formation, begin to resolve into an image of Jay as the viewer moves in front the picture plane.
As he or she walks away, the shadows cast by the cards form lines that lengthen as one's distance from the
image grows, creating the illusion of an aging portrait.
This is a story about a technique that became a story itself, which in turn turned back into a technique.
One night Kaino threw some cards "into" a wall, eventually creating a wall drawing as a meditation on
the staggering amount of effort and w ill that Jay must have invested in his training. Kaino ended up creating a
portrait, but figured he would change the subject upon exhibition, because the technique discovered was to
be applied differently than in the initial sketch.
A big fan of Jay's entire body of work, Kaino had been in no rush to meet him. However, a local gallerist
brokered an introduction, showing to Jay Kaino's first book, Communicating Rooks. Reacting positively to the
book, months later Jay sent a copy of his Extraordinary Exhibitions (2005). Each had slipped a note into his
book inviting a meeting, but both left out any means of contact. Kaino was nevertheless thrilled at their virtual
relationship. In the dynamic space of his imagination, they had already met, shared secrets, become friends,
had fights, developed a mutual respect, and launched projects, the relationship having evolved to a place
where they just didn’t need to talk to each other that often.
One night, a magician who had been in Kaino's studio saw the portrait of Jay and was struck by its
method and form. This magician later had the opportunity to meet Jay at a party and used Kaino as an ice­
breaker to talk about his own work. Toward the end of the conversation, he asked Jay, "have you seen the
portrait that Glenn made of you?” Knowing that Jay is a private man， Kaino had been respecting that boundary.
He was embarrassed at the idea of alarming Jay with this account, which must have made him seem like an
obsessed fan.
Kaino had no the intention of exhibiting the portrait of Jay, but after this episode could think of no other
option but to make it public. This is the portrait of Ricky Jay that should never have been. It is a monument to
Jay's commitment as a metaphor for belief. It is a novelty act transcended into high-art conceptual portraiture,
and also an embarrassingly large piece of fan-boy art.
S3JLIS
LABOR
 The first public project by A. Band it, M y AVoi/se Will Be Called a House o M r f was an intervention performed at
94 MY HOUSE WILL BE CALLED 叱
the first Art Los Angeles Contemporary Fair. The duo methodically walked up and down the aisles of the fair,
A HOUSE OF ART DelGaudio pushing a large wooden box w ith Kaino carrying a boombox playing UC.R.E.A.M.Mfrom Wu-Tang
A. Band it. Art Los Angeles Contemporary Fair, Clan loudly; over two hundred fair attendees began to follow them in a procession.
Barker Hanger, Santa Monica, California, 2011

fig. 2 As they stopped at each booth, the two presented the gallery a note; a few willingly gave them artworks that
they stacked onto their crate.

Hoavl
98

MY HOUSE WILL BE
CALLED A HOUSE
OF ART, I

BUT YOU ARE

TURNING IT INTO A
DEN OF THIEVES
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On the day of the dinner, the perform ance began w ith a short presentation outside behind the dining
area, an engaging dialogue about the evening and the expectations for the event. Kaino and DelGaudio
gave a short history of A.Bandit and talked about the exchange between art and magic. The group was then
encouraged to follow the artists down to the pool for an impromptu conversation about Harry Houdini and his
water-torture cell.

DELGAUDIO DELGAUDIO
One o f H o u d i n i 7s m o s t i c o n i c p e r f o r m a n c e s T h e r e w a s , 〇f c o u r s e , a s e c r e t t o t h i s .
was the W a t e r T o r t u r e E s c a p e . He was
s h a c k l e d , h u n g u p s i d e down, and low e r e d [More hands drop.]
into a b o x f i l l e d w i t h w a t e r t h a t was
locked from the o u t s i d e . Right before DELGAUDIO
being submerged, Houdini w o uld tell the In fact, H o u d i n i o n l y h a d o n e s e c r e t . A n d
c r o w d , “E v e r y o n e r a i s e y o u r h a n d . W h e n it w a s t h e s a m e f o r e a c h a n d e v e r y m i r a c l e
I go u n d e r ; hold your breath with m e . he e v e r p e r f o r m e d , w h i c h w a s . . .
When you need to take a breath, lower
y o u r h a n d .1
1 [The last hand drops.]

K i e l .
KAINO KAINO

一
So p l e a s e , everyone, raise your hands [abruptly interrupting]
a n d h o l d y o u r b r e a t h . W h e n y o u n e e d to O h , looks like w e ’
re o u t o f b r e a t h .

_
b r e a t h e , l o w e r y o u r ha n d .

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DELGAUDIO
DELGAUDIO M o v i n g o n th e n .
[using the present-day audience as a
y.
reflection of the s t o r y ] [ D e l G a u d i o and Kaino drop the perfor­
4 o s n c s ls ^{OA C t

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The a u d i e n c e t o o k a c o l l e c t i v e g u l p of mance a t the pool and move to the next
air and H o u d i n i was lowered into the location. The guests follow with the
cr
t a n k . L ong after the last pe r s o n a s hand hopes that the next location will provide
went down, H o u d i n i was sti l l submerged. some closure. It will not.]
T h e a u d i e n c e w o u l d b e g i n t o s c r e a m , “L e t
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[At this point half of the guests Thands CQ

are down.1
108 From there, the audience was encouraged to follow the duo down to the garden. 109
110 ng. 4 At the garden, the duo spoke about tw o “ magical orange trees.” The first story was about the Marvelous I ll
Orange Tree trick created by Jean-Eugene Robert-Houdin, the French magician who, in September of 1856,
came out of retirement to help suppress tribal revolutions against the French colonial government in Algeria.
The second story was a Haitian folktale about a young girl who plants an orange tree and asks it, tim e and
time again, to help free her from the clutches of her evil stepmother. Eventually, the orange tree hears the girKs
call and grows into the clouds, taking her stepmother from the earth.

Orange tree,
Grow and grow and grow.
Orange tree, orange tree,
Grow and grow and grow,
Orange tree.
Stepmother is not real mother,
Orange tree.

fig. 5 (follow ing spread) Though the presentation felt magical, there was no performance; rather, the audience was again encouraged
to follow the duo down a long staircase to the unkempt horse stable at the bottom of the property.
 0 6I •о А
fig- 6 Upon reaching the stable, the performance piece concluded with a conversation about the problematic history 115
IO
of performance art and magic as service entertainment, and also with a story about the magician Slydini, who
с
а was legendary for putting party guests on trial prior to agreeing to perform.
This trial was meant to be simultaneously encouraging and discouraging, creating hope for the magic

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would be heightened, as expectation grew to a suspenseful frenzy.
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Slydini would finish by telling his guests that the tim e was right for him to perform. A.Bandit informed

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their guests that, unfortunately, the tim e was not right for them still and ran away, leaving the group stranded
-C in the stable, far away from their dinner.

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116 FBD
A.Bandit Log pg. 182
A.Bandit. Private residence, Los Angeles, 2010

Location: P r i v a t e R e s i d e n c e
D a t e : 0 9 • 1 5 . l〇

S u m m o n e d to a f u n d r a i s i n g event at the house of a

H o l l y w o o d agent, the duo was a s k e d several times
to stay and wait for R obert D e N i r o ; who was on
his w a y and w a n t e d to m e e t t h e m . As it t u r n e d
o u t ; D e N i r o was three hours late and, w h e n he
a r r i v e d ； had no idea who t h e y w e r e . N e v e r t h e l e s s ;
t h e y were a s k e d to have a c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h the
a c t o r ; w h i c h b e g a n and ended w i t h “B o b b y D 〃
t r y i n g to tell t h e m h o w all of t h e i r magic was
done and h e c k l i n g d u r i n g what was inten d e d to be
a v e r y s p e c i a l ; p e r s o n a l p r e s e n t a t i o n . The boys
got up and l e f t , c o i n i n g a new p hrase along the
w a y : FBD. T h e y d i d n ' t even n e e d to t r a n s l a t e it
to each other, or to the rest of the c r e w ..
118 THE NOTHING HAPPENING 蜘 1-2 The Nothing Happening was inspired by a passage from Jean G enefs novel Prisoner o f Love, wherein the
protagonist encounters a group of soldiers in a cave playing a game of cards w ithout cards. This A.Bandit
A.Bandit. Greystone Mansion, Beverly Hills, California, 2012
performance included the audience as collaborative actors in a game of poker played with blank-faced cards.

As the dealers called out their imagined flop cards to a group of rotating players who themselves were holding
cards without markings, a moment of collective hallucination was experienced as numbers and pips seemingly
appeared on the faces. In the four-hour game, only one person cheated. (She was an art consultant.)
120 R ISE OF THE NEW %] An imaginary group show featuring a diverse assortment of performers and artists, “Rise of the New Imaginists” 121
was conceived as an exercise in the expansion of the A.Bandit worldview. People with whom A.Bandit had
IMAGINISTS positive partnerships were assembled in a fantasy show that would still be fantastic today.
A.Bandit. Unrealized exhibition
WITNESS
124 Tyranny o f vision is a conceptual performance that happens in split-second intervals, in the dark (see also
TYRANNY OF VISION 125
pp. 249-251). The visual evidence of the performance that is revealed in the flashes of a strobe light only hint
A.Bandit. SoHo House, West Hollywood, 2010;
at unseen work.
The Kitchen, New York, 2011
The piece begins with Kaino performing one of the most classic effects in magic: the Chinese Linking
Rings. He shows one ring, then the other, links them, and then unlinks them.
Out of the shadows, DelGaudio appears with a basketball in hand. He explains: "The Chinese Linking
Rings. Some say ifs one of the oldest tricks in magic. If forced to describe how this illusion works, some might
say it's sleight of hand, the hand is quicker than the eye. But really, it is an illusion of depth, it 'works* because
of light. So we asked ourselves, what happens if you remove some of that light. Could you experience more by
seeing less?"

COULD YOU EXPERIENCE

MORE

BY SEEING LESS?

SS3N1IM
 When the lights come back on, DelGaudio continues: "Nope! The experiment was a failure. We realized we 129
were doing it wrong. What if you didn’t try to focus on the light, but instead the spaces between the light?
Perhaps then, the trick you thought you were seeing is not what you are seeing."
The strobe light comes back on, and Kaino seemingly stands perfectly still, about to do the trick. When
the house lights kick on, the audience sees he’s actually doing the trick as fast as he can. When the house
lights go off again, Kaino seems to be holding still perfectly—although in fact he is not, he's actually jackham­
mering away.
This cycle is repeated a few times, and then blackout, and then applause.
In the end, loud rap music erupts, sounding like a basketball game. Kaino announces: "Ladies and
gentlemen, please w elcom e to the stage the world-fam ous Floating Ball illusion performed by Derek!”
DelGaudio dribbles a basketball, then starts throwing it from hand to hand to the beat of the strobe light. The
ball appears to be floating in space when the strobe flashes. Then DelGaudio moves his hands further and
further away from each other in what seems an impossible distance.
NOISIAJOANiAl

S S 1 M
 hg. 1 184 Seconds, a seemingly simple and iconic performance piece by DelGaudio, premiered as a solo event at
184 SECONDS LAXArt Annex in 2011.
Derek DelGaudio. LAXArt Annex, Los Angeles, 2011: DelGaudio sits at a table with four decks of playing cards in front of him. He asks a spectator to tim e him
The Kitchen, New York, 2011
for one minute. The spectator says go. DelGaudio begins to deal cards rapidly. Once he deals an entire deck
he moves on to the next.
134 figs. 2-3 At one minute the spectator says stop. DelGaudio stops dealing and writes something down on a piece of 135
paper, stands up, and leaves. The viewers are left with cards scattered all over the table and a piece of paper
that reads, “ 184 seconds in a minute.”
To the uninitiated, it would appear that DelGaudio sat at the table, dealt cards for one minute, wrote
something down, and exited, leaving viewers with a mess of cards and a cryptic note. In truth DelGaudio was
secretly performing a famously difficult cheating technique known as the second deal, or "seconds,n in which
one deals the second card from the pack while retaining the top card the entire time.
Seconds embodies the conceptual potential of secrecy and its paradox; knowing that it exists
ceases its existence. The performance asks a profound question that challenges the artistic gesture: Can an
artwork be an artwork if nobody sees it as such?
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136 S A FE A sculpture made from secrets is held together within a safe. In an attempt to sculpt with invisible materials, 137
the artist gathered over 220 secrets over the course of a year from a wide range of individuals involved in the
Glenn Kaino. LAXArt, Los Angeles, 2010 business world, the art circuit, the entertainment and fashion industries, and politics.

figs. 2-5

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138 The material of the work is its content, charged with symbolic value. The work exists through a legally binding 139
notification that states that the safe may never be opened, even if the work is purchased. If it is opened, the
object ceases to be an artwork.

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140 此 ，
The card magician's bible is The Expert at the Card Table: The Classic Treatise on Card Manipulation (1902). 141
CIRRUS EDITIONS It was written pseudo-anonymously by an author named S. W. Erdnase, whose exact identity magicians have
been chasing after for over a hundred years. Besides having written descriptions of some of the most advanced
Glenn Kaino, 2010. Lithograph on paper, ЗОУл x 23 inches
techniques in card manipulation, the book has 101 illustrations of the sleight-of-hand moves. DelGaudio came
by the studio one night and brought with him a meticulously organized chart of all the moves, in order, and
proceeded to show Kaino each one as they discussed the correlation between a performance and its subse­
quent documentation. Documenting moves thatare m eantto be invisible by making drawings that are explicit
is a paradox and runs contrary to a still life, for which one draws what one sees.
After DelGaudio left, Kaino electronically scanned the images and began manipulating them. Inspired
by the skill he had just witnessed in DelGaudio, the concept of the secrets within us, and the invisible things
from which we are made, Kaino discovered that a repositioning of the diagrams looked like a double-helix
formation, and that the letters "DNA" were hidden inside the name Erdnase. This is a DNA test result for those
who are indeed made of magic.

SS3N1IM
142 In 1917 Marcel Duchamp made a portrait of himself with a funhouse mirror, which replicated his image four 143
THE GRAND FINALE fig. 1
times, creating a five-way prism of representation. This seminal picture was created just prior to Duchamp’s
invention of Rrose Selavy and the splintering of his identity as an artist.
Glenn Kaino, 2010. Video; 5:48 minutes
One day Kaino was talking about Duchamp with DelGaudio, flipping through a book on the artist. Upon
seeing a photo in the book, DelGaudio exclaimed, “ I know the guy who has that mirror!” As it turned out, he
was talking about John Gaughan, who indeed had the m irror at his workshop. Surprisingly, Gaughan offered
to let the duo borrow it, so the tw o set it up in the studio and played with it for months.
Kaino took every type of still image one can imagine. After hundreds of shots, he realized that he had
never seen a moving image recorded in the mirror. Then one night, after a long session, it hit Kaino: he had
figured out how to “break the mirror,” its illusory function as a device to replicate the viewer. By making eye
contact with the camera lens, and thereby engaging the viewer directly via one of the mirror images, one of
the reflections seems to come to the fore and becomes the focus of the view er’s attention. One person
becomes many, and the synchronicity of the viewing angles of the subject is fractured.
Kaino recorded, in one take, a lip sync to the only song he could remember all the words to that had five
singers: "The Grand Finale11from the DOC featuring NWA. The Grand Finale was an inversion of what
Duchamp's portrait represented, which was a moment of a fractured trajectory. For Kaino, breaking the mirror
was the fusion of a m ultifaceted practice into a singular whole existing in several simultaneous planes of
signification.

£
UTILITY

146
A.BANDIT DECK OF CARDS
A. Bandit, 2010. Ink on paper,
figs. 1-6
Agit-prop for the sleight of hand. Paper weapons created to kill skeptics. A collectible set of playing cards that
sold out in a day, the A.Bandit custom deck was meticulously crafted for an inspired soul. A meandering line
ЗУ г x 2 1А x Ј/г inches of text on the 什ont quotes author Hakim Bey: “ Is it possible to create a Secret Theater in which both artist and
audience have completely disappeared— only to re-appear on another plane, where life and art have become
the same thing, the pure giving of gifts?”
The sticker seal is a lock that, when opened, reveals a secret message. Two of the kings feature self-
portraits of the artists, and the back of each of the finely weighted and textured cards features a reproduction
of a Descartes image of a double rainbow (see p. 36)，the Alexander’s band, from which the duo takes its name.
------------ NOJOKE-------------
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WANDS BYGONE 扭 1 DelGaudio and Kaino were driving to John Gaughan's shop one day, with the only intention to be in his aura.
On the way they talked about Gaughan's magic wands. Gaughan makes the wands that the Magic Castle gives
151

Glenn Kaino. LAXArt, Los Angeles, 2010
out to the winners of the Magician of the Year award. One cannot buy these wands. One has to earn them. In
that respect, they are priceless.
Kaino had the crazy idea to ask Gaughan if he would collaborate on a series of wands for specific con­
ceptual artists. He surprisingly said yes. Not only did he agree to help create the work, he seemed energized
and enthusiastic about the project.
After a working session, Gaughan told Kaino about the Mantle of Magic. The Mantle of Magic is a symbol
bestowed upon the world's greatest prestidigitator. In a famous ceremony, Harry Kellar, the most famous
magician of his time, passed the mantle to his successor, Howard Thurston, who years later passed it to his
successor. Posters have commemorated this process, which is a profound gesture in multiple ways.
The wands Kaino had been building—
— symbolic tokens encapsulating the power of conceptual artists—
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could function in a similar way.

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Glenn Kaino, 2010-2013. Ink on paper, dimensions variable
to chart its journey, A.Bandit has made several drawings of their conversations. On many an occasion, a four-
hour conversation would be instigated with lines and four words. On one particular evening, 146 note cards
appeared on a wall, each with a story, reference, and provocation. Through the drawings, the A.Bandit studio
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 170 PATIENCE figs. 1—3 Patience is a conceptual sculpture created by Kaino first shown at LAXArt in 2010. It features 101 plaster casts 171
〇f DelGaudio^ hands demonstrating every illustration in the 1902 now-classic magic text The Expert at the
Glenn Kaino. LAXArt, Los Angeles, 2010 Card Table by S. W. Erdnase. The casts were placed on a table— a quarter cut from a round table—
— with a
mirrored corner, which created the illusion of a much larger pile of hands on a fully round table. The individual
castings were imperfect and deformed due to DelGaudio's rushed effort and impatience with the process.
The imperfection spoke to the very nature of the paradox of DelGaudio's sacrifice over his lifetime of practice,
the incredible patience he devoted to his rigorous study of card handling contrasting with his impatience with
the process of translating that into an artwork for the very first time.

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NOW YOU S E E IT figs. 1-2 A secret room is constructed in an exhibition space. The entryway to the space is concealed, and the door
leading to it is equipped with a coin-operated lock similar to those used to control access to public restrooms.
Glenn Kaino. LAXArt, Los Angeles, 2010
Visitors receive an editioned coin, signed and numbered by the artist, inside a closed plastic container.

fig. 3 Those who find the door to the secret room realize the artwork is in fact an experience that is only accessible
upon surrendering the object. It was a test. What is more valuable, an artifact representing an experience not
had, or a memory of chance taken?
A.RT ACTIVATOR
A.Bandit. The Kitchen, New York, 2011
figs. 1—3 Prior to entering the show, each audience member has a hand stamped with the letters “A.RT.” Then the
house lights dim, and a stage light begins to glow to reveal the tw o performers flanking a large disc w ith a
spiral pattern on it. They introduce the wheel as an “activator” and ask the audience to stare directly into its
center while they spin it. The wheel creates a magical illusion, a temporary distortion of one’s actual vision.
After several seconds of staring at the wheel, the tw o tell the audience to look down directly at their hands.
The word “A.RT” appears to “ bubble” on their skin, an effect at once terrifying and mystifying. (See also p. 253.)
 figs. 1-3 The Linking Rings is a short film featuring the classic Linking Rings trick performed by an invisible agent in 177
THE LINKING RINGS
front of a red curtain. As the work utilizes the illusory effect that light and reflection have on depth, the rings
Glenn Kaino, 2012. Video; 5:27 minutes appear to connect and disconnect and to create a series of dynamic Venn diagrams in the air, sections inter­
secting and disconnecting, implying the spaces created and dissolved within the space of illusion.
 figs. 1- 2 Audience members are asked to choose from different colored strips of paper as admission-ticket receipts at 179
178 LOCKS the beginning of the evening. Toward the end of the show, during the final conversation between DelGaudio
A.Bandit. SoHo House. West Hollywood, 2010 and Kaino on stage, DelGaudio brings out a portfolio of oversized images, featuring exploded diagrams of
locks. Thumbing through the images, the two describe the locks and then, after a quick magical gesture, display
the images a second tim e to reveal their transformation.

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[became a metaphoric key on the images of locks evocative of secret inner workings.

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THE OUT-OF­
FOCUS GROUP
 Glenn Kaino
184
RICKY JAY AND GK:
DD: Derek DelGaudio
Interview with Ricky Jay and John Baldessari, A.Bandit studio, Hollywood, California, July 7,2016

JOHN BALDESSARI JB: John Baldessari GK: We have been working together for eight-and-a-half years now. In the first month
RJ: Ricky Jay of us getting together, we were talking about art and magic and what we felt was an
inversion of crises in the respective fields: that art has been hyper-professionalized, and
m a g ic...

DD: ... is a handful of professionals in a sea of amateurs. Just in terms of how few pro­
fessional magicians there are, even counting the ones who claim theyYe professionals.

JB: Well, they wouldn't be very good if you knew who they were.

DD: Fair enough.

[Laughter.]

GK: So we thought that art could take itself less seriously, because art had been
hyper-professionalized; an extremely clear caste system had been created. But magic
could maybe take itself more seriously.
And one of our goals— this is eight-and-a-half-years ago and w e’re not making
th is up— we envisioned w hat would be the ultim ate conversation: the tw o of you
having a dialogue w ith us about art and magic. So thank you so much for being here.
We understand you're probably here for each other instead of us, but still it's nice
you’re here.

DD: We take it where we can get it.

GK: One thing for us to begin with is the idea of pointing and direction. In both of your
work, you function as choreographers of expectation, right?What isart?W hatam I seeing?
How does that come into play when you’re crafting your work?

JB: Well, first of all, one thing comes to mind right away: for years I had this
tiny snapshot in a frame over my desk. It was of a bowl full of water. And every time
I looked at it, it played an optical trick. It became empty, it became full, it became
empty, it became full, according to how the light was falling on it. It was always an
inspiration to me.

Then there's the whole issue of trompe I'oeil painting, fooling the eye; ifs a whole
honorable tradition. I did a work called While Something Is Happening Here,
Something Else Is Happening There, with the idea of diverting attention.
c m o H o s a o s - J 9 1 a o 3Hi

[Laughter.]

RJ: That makes me think of a great story. There was a famous magician
named Mark Wilson, who was a television magician for decades. To be absolutely
honest, he wasn't good at all. At one point Dai Vernon, who was the greatest
sleight-of-hand artist— he and Charlie M iller— of the tw entieth century, spent
 some tim e with this guy’s son, because the father was doing many bad techniques
in magic. Like, he would apparently put something in his hand and point with his
finger, like that. You know, this awful gesture [pointing to his open hand]. Vernon
worked w ith the son for a whole afternoon to get him to stop doing that. And at
the end of the day, the fellow asked his son, “ how are you doing?” And his son
showed him that he no longer held his hand like that. And the father said, "No,
no, no, you’re doing it all wrong. You have to do th is”一 exactly what Vernon had
spent the afternoon teaching him not to do. He had so little understanding.
JB: When I was a kid living in San Diego, there was a magic store and you
could go and buy magic tricks. I used to hang out there all the tim e. I really
loved it.
DD: Oh, I didn't know that. You did magic as a child?
JB: No, but I was fascinated.
GK: In researching for this conversation, we saw that Michael Govan said something
striking about your work, John: “Sometimes he takes the thing that’s the most obvious in
the center of your vision away, forces you to look at everything else for the first time to make
new sense of what you’re seeing.” Can you speak to that a bit?
JB: Well, I think about magic as diversion and getting you to look someplace
else so you can get away with what you're doing. People think that looking at
the obvious is a given. But it^s not a given. Ifs a basis of [laughs] what an artist
does, you know, is getting you to look someplace else and pay attention to some­
thing else.
RJ: The misconception in magic is the idea of misdirection, which in fact is
direction.
JB: Right.
RJ: You’re not telling someone to look somewhere else. You’re directing them
to look where you want them to look, which I think is what you’re saying aboutyour
work as well.
DD: Why do you think that misconception came about?
RJ: That’s actually a good question」 Ve never thought about the origin of it,
but it's sexier. Yeah.
JB: I always thought a cool way to dress at a party would be to take a ballpoint
pen and circle all your flaws.
[Laughter.]
DD: The interesting question is if it was a viewer or a magician who named it that. 18f
GK: Well, this is a perfect segue into the next topic: the idea of mischief and playfulness.
As magicians and artists, we have the opportunity to be playful and to be tricksters but to
do that in seriousness, which is an amazing contradiction for us to live inside 一 all of our
work does that. Can you speak to that a bit?
JB: Well, right away, I think of the king and his comic, who is supposed to
keep him amused.
GK: The jester, yes.
JB: And if the jester is not doing a good job, he’s gonna get cut.
GK: Some of your work is really playful, like / Will Not Make Any More Boring A rt ^ 971 ],
but has also shaped scholarship, which is amazing. Do you find that amusing?
JB: Well, one of my working principles has always been what can I get away
with? [Laughter.] That will carry you a long way.
DD: Is part of it fighting against the status quo of w hat’s happening and w ha t’s
out there?
JB: Yeah, like what people expect of you. Stuff gets projected on you. I mean,
I think about myself and Г т tall, right? People have expectations of tall people. I
don't know what they are: John Wayne, the circus, whatever. But one of my tricks
when I go to a social gathering is to sit down so I look like everybody else. So ifs
a really disguise.
RJ: It exists in our world too, obviously. But I think in terms of what you were
asking, it was more a choice to do something that other people weren't doing. It
wasn't to be different; it was just to be me. I was not interested in that magic-store
m entality where everybody w ent to the store and asked what the new piece
was that week and that's w hat they all started to do. That just didn't seem to
make sense.
I think the most important thing in many ways for me was when my inter­
est in history started to mesh with my interest in performance. Initially, those two
things were fighting each other. Am I going to be a historian and write about this
or am I going to continue to perform? Finally realizing that those could be inte­
grated was key for me. That's part of what made what I was doing so different.
IHVSSHalv
Like the story, although this was much later in my career, that I did in On
the Stem [2002]. There was a wonderful old story I found from a Swiss writer. The
story was about a collector who invited someone over to his home. In my telling, I
would describe these fabulous Audubon prints that the collector wanted to sell.
These were cherished prints of his. CQ
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And when the visitor got to the home, the collector’s wife said ，“ I’m so
sorry. What you don't know is, to keep this man alive, IVe been selling off his prints
all these years. He’s now totally blind, so he has no idea. When you go through the
pages， please don’t say anything.”
awoi
And so the collector lovingly goes through what are supposed to be
Audubon prints— explaining this shows the wild turkey, this the bald eagle, this
p
5

the Carolina parakeets thatVe been extinct for years— displaying these prints DD:
one by one.
And on stage I would do that. I would show many large Audubon prints. GK:
Then I would give the punch line and say, what the man did not realize is that the
prints had been sold; the blind man lovingly traced his fingers overthe blank pages
as he described his invisible collection. At that moment, all the prints suddenly
transform into blank sheets of paper and I just throw them on the stage.
8!
[Laughs.] That's interesting.
But, obviously, in your work ifs a bit different, right?
RJ: Well, I don4 know. I mean, one could say the same thing, but it's certainly
not geared toward that. I have done both film and television that was meant for
those mediums. But certainly the live performance is the key to everything.

JB: Well, there’s always the classic movie shot where there’s a prone figure
on the floor: is he dead or alive? The eyes are shut. But then there's the second
shot where one eye begins to open, which is beautiful. It's all about suspense.
RJ: Yeah.
DD: The history thing is interesting to me, because one of the realizations I had when
I started diving into the art world is magicians often are looking back. You’re the only person
to me who really does it right in terms of carrying historical things forward and presenting
them in the right context and in a way that's meaningful. But I think most magicians are
stuck with what has been. Do you think about modernity, or is that natural for you?
GK: You guys are breaking our hearts, because we really believe in the notion that there
is an elevated engagement w ith our artw ork by having people actually be present, as
humans seeing things. Clearly works circulate in media—well, in mediated versions— but
Ith in k th a t particularly for some of the performance work seeing it in person is a big thing.
JB: There’s an issue of money involved. It’s probably not so involved in magie.
But I was just at this collector's home. She had just sold her CyTwombly for $70.5
million. You look at a Cy Twombly and say a kid could do that. So there you really
have to have detectives at work.
EJ: [Laughs.]

RJ: I don4 know that it's natural at all, because I have such trouble with tech­ GK: Well, that’s true. That brings to mind, I once spoke to a collector who said a horrible
nology. I'm such a Luddite. thing. He said, "I collect paintings so that other people can't see them /1He was trying to
craft a rarity of images and hide them, as a way of appreciating their value. That was horrible
to me. So, in that way media helps, because it allows more people to experience—

GK: Does the viewer’s actual, physical presence with a work matter? JB: Well, th a t’s how you own stolen paintings. Because if anybody sees
them, then you're busted.
RJ: It does for me. I would think it does for you.
RJ: Well, my dreadful m agic-collecting story is of a wealthy man who col­
GK: How much does it matter to you if a viewer sees a John Baldessari piece in person lected magical rarities. He had the only known copy of an issue of a rare magic
versus seeing it in a reproduction? magazine. And when he found a second copy of the same issue, he bought it and
destroyed it. So think about that.
JB: Oh, would never see the piece itself, but would see it printed in a book,
you mean?

RJ: Right. Right. DD: When you make a piece, do you have an interaction in mind for how the viewer
should engage with it, o ris it just made and put into the world and however they see it, live,
GK: Is there a priority for you to have your audience— on paper, in a book—

JB: N 0 , 1don’t think so. JB: My mantra is keep them guessing.

IHVSS33V3 NHOf aNV AVf

RJ: You don't think they get a different experience out of seeing the actual RJ: [Laughs.] I suppose mine is, if I don't think about that I won't keep them
piece? guessing.

JB: Oh, they probably do. [Laughter.]

RJ: It just doesn’t matter to you. DD: Right. And do you think, because youVe done so much television in the past, do
you th in k the w ork fundam entally changes on television, or do you alter it to do
JB: Personally, I don4 care. We constantly get requests every day to repro­

AW
television?

OIH
duce work. Ifs fine with me. Ifs just more publicity.

RJ: I don’t so much change the piece, but I choose pieces very carefully. It’s
not out of a fear of exposure. It’s the fear of the cameraman not getting the
necessary shot, which doesn't allow for the plot. So you need to control that or at
least try to control it.
I really love these pieces of yours throwing balls [Centering Bouncing
f e / / (1971)]_ I would love to know what made you think of that initially.
JB： Oh, yeah. I remember very clearly. It was part of a series of projects and
performances sponsored by M oM A in New York. They had these very famous
German/Hungarian photographers down there, [Harry] Shunkand [Janos] Kender.
You were asked to do anything you wanted to do and then they would have to
document it. I thought, well, they're famous, Г т not. I'm gonna do something to
really fuck them up.
[Laughter.]
I said, "Listen, my project is very simple. See this red ball? Yeah. Г т gonna throw
it in the air and you get it exactly in the middle of the photograph.” And that was it.
RJ: It’s like Spot the Spot, in a way.
Can you explain Spot the Spot for the rest us?
RJ: Ifs a carnival game, but a bit of a con. The idea is you’re given discs and
there is a spot, like a single red dot, on a canvas. From a certain height, you’re
supposed to drop like five discs to completely cover the spot. Ifs a wagering game,
a betting game.
JB: Yeah.
RJ: Once again, controllable in an unusual way. The operator does it almost
arbitrarily first. He just tosses and covers them like that, and then you go. He
scoops them up and hands them to you. And you сапЧ do it. You'll spend a month
there and never do it.
JB: The whole question of the meaning of the word “randomness，” what does
randomness mean? I have no idea.
RJ: Our friend has made almost a life study of that. Persi [Diaconis] is a great
sleight-of-hand man; he?s a M acArthur Fellow, and one of his main subject is ran­
domness. H e^ a statistician.
JB: I actually used that as an idea for a series of works. I would take, like, three
little red balls. Td start easy, three balls, and then I went up to four balls and five
balls. I would throw them into the air. The idea was to try to get them lined up in a
straight line while in the air. Of course, I could never do it. But it was titled that,
Throwing Three Balls in the A ir to Get a Straight Line (Best o f Thirty-Six Attempts)
[1973].
RJ： Oh, so that’s it. Those weren’t taken by the same German photographers?
9:
JB: No. That was me later. But I got a lot of mileage out of that.
[Laughter.]
GK: Yeah. Another thing we talk about is concealment. We have a work in which one
of the lines is "seeing more by seeing less”_ this idea that you’re going to reframe the notion
of one’s point of view, to open up optics on what else is there. Sometimes it’s explicit like in
those works. Other tim es it’s im plicit. It’s not a direct visual correlation w ith this idea of
seeing less.
JB: Uh-huh.
GK: But when you say this is a painting or you're obscuring what a real painting is,
you’re obscuring what the actual expectation of art is. And within that you’re opening up
what art can be. The same way with magic, when you’re not giving someone something ，
you’re actually giving them much more.
JB: Well, IVe achieved a kind of success with what I do now. Ifs kind of recon­
figuring old artists' paintings, and people won4 accept that because they think Г т
doing some trickery.
GK: When you were making those first series of conceptual paintings in the 1970s,
was there a conscious effort to not give the public what they wanted or what they expected
when walking into a museum?
JB: Well, back then there was— I guess it would be early 1970s, hippie times,
right? One hippie notion was that there was plant intelligence. Plants, you could
talk to them. And people would, in fact, talk to their plants if they wanted them to
grow.
So I kind of just pushed that a little bit further. I got some alphabet cards.
I have a video where Г т just trying to teach a plant the alphabet.
[Laughter]
RJ: Well, there's som ething lovely about when an institution becomes
involved in keeping an artist's deception alive. Like, when you were talking about
MoMA, it reminded me of one time when I walked in knowing nothing about an
exhibition. I think the guy is a Spanish artist, Fontcuberta. The show featured pho­
tographs of animals, with this long story about howthey were captured in the wild
and there was a snake with legs. You were watching this and suddenly it became
I H V S S w a T ^ M K O f СШУAVf
completely clear that these things were absolutely made up. But here it was in
MoMA, with nothing giving you a hint about this at all.
I just remember being transformed in five minutes from how I felt going
in. I went to see something else and here was a show. It was on the walls. What is
this? It was like a flying unicorn. And then you’re reading the text and there’s this
incredible history of finding the works of a long-dead German naturalist and
anthropologist. Suddenly you just start laughing. I mean, youYe just gone.
There’s something about the institution’s sanctioning or acceptance that
made that experience far more fun. And then, of course, there's the whole w on­
A^os
derful Museum of Jurassic Technology—
 1
9;
JB: I f s like when people didn't travel a lot and nobody had an idea of what a RJ: Well, it works in the art world as well. I mean, [David] Hockney and the
rhinoceros looked like, you get these very strange drawings of rhinoceroses. whole idea of lenses being used; we could talk about that a lot from a technological
point of view. His whole theory about the use of lenses in painting — The idea
RJ: Sure. behind it doesn’t make a painter or a painting less exciting or less important. So
on that level, I can say the exposure of secrets doesn’t have anything to do with
JB: And then that went even further along. Then you have animals made to the art. Really, they're tools. It's still dependent on the magician, but it doesn't
look like animals that never existed [laughs]. cheapen the art. Thafs a major reason for these things to be preserved.
Also, there’s something truly w onderful about the lineage of it. You’re
RJ: Well, haven't you done some stuff like this? learning something in confidence 什om the inventor of that technique and you’re
keeping his confidence. It’s because of your own level in the field that you’ve been
GK: Yes, I made a series of hybrid taxidermies. turned onto this. You choose to share it or not share it. And it is important. There
really are people who are preservers of that tradition and care passionately about
RJ: Right. I’m very fond of an animal that was billed as the bonasus in 1821. it. I think that's fine, even though the secret itself is not the end all.
Londoners saw all these broadsides at the time, many of which I've collected,
announcing the arrival of the bonasus, an animal never before seen by man, with DD: Sure. That makes sense.
the horns of an antelope and the hind quarters of a lion, etc. etc.
JB: Yeah. Years back, he [Hockney] painted my portrait and I could see him
JB: Yeah. working, but I couldn't see the development of the painting. When it was all fin­
ished he had given me striped pants. And I was wearing something like this.
RJ: It was actually the American bison, but was exhibited in Europe when it And what, am I gonna say no, I don't want that? It was a David Hockney painting,
was called by its scientific name, the Bison bonasus. To say it was the buffalo, come on.
nobody would go to the exhibit. But to call it the bonasus—
—
[Laughter.]
GK: It makes me think of a jackalope. Like, a jackalope—
GK: Well, I love the idea that weYe talking about the currency of things that are imma­
RJ: Yeah, a jackalope is a perfect example. terial, ideas, because a secret is an idea, right? A secret is not an object. An object has a
secret perhaps, but we're talking about conceptual art and we're having a robust dialogue
GK: — comes from a specific cancerthat happens in rabbits which gives them horns. about valuing what these things are and weYe literally talking about nothing. And the work
is the proxy of those ideas into the world, right, whether through performance or through
RJ: Barnum, at his museum, would have a sign “To the Egress.” Some people painting or video or an app?
thought the egress was an animal instead of the exit, where they would go out.
RJ: Well, Г т not sure if that's the proxy as much as the point, you know, that
JB: Well, there are still people in the world who think zebras are painted that’s the real experience?
horses. I thought even in flipping that, it would be great to see a western where
cavalries were riding zebras. JB: I’d love to read a book contrasting the words “actual” and “fake” and
where do you draw the line? I mean, I would have no idea. It would be a great
RJ: That would be. discussion.

[Laughter.] RJ: [Laughs.]

IHVSSaantv
DD: Ricky, I have a question. John, ГИ let Glenn translate the art version for you. But my DD: Do you find it challenging or at times exhausting to protect or conceal something
question is about the preservation of secrets. The very small collective of magicians values in order to give people the intended experience?
secrets in a way that I don*t think is common; for me personally, they are extremely im port­
ant. Ifs definitely a major part of my practice. But IVe never heard you talk about why RJ: Yeah. I also kind of resent it. I’m at a period in my life where I’m realizing
preserving secrets is so important. I had become magic’s policeman, that there was a thing beyond me and it’s fallen
CQ

M agicians are actually a lot more liberal about secrets than you might think.
Everyone thinks of magicians as hoarding their secrets. Unfortunately, th a fs actually not
true. They’ve turned it into an economic system, where secrets are traded for as much
as, le fs say, a painting. You create a secret and then you sell it and then you sell a million
of them.
M H O f амуAvr AMOIH
on me and others. But to have to make people try to understand th a t...
You сапЧ control other people doing what they do. You can just hope they
appreciate it. I think it all comes down to, in terms of my world—and I’d love to hear
your answer to this—that it's just like politics for me. The only good politics is
leading an exemplary life. The only thing good fo rth e art of magic is doing magic
well. There’s nothing else.
DD: For the public? RJ: Yeah. That s nice. It s funny that you said magie is a closed system, 1
91

because I think that magic couldn't be a more open system. It's a fierce m eritoc­
RJ: I don4 even know if I would add that on. racy. So the difference is anybody can have access to anything. They just have to
earn i t I’ve always been uncomfortable as a teacher. I just don’t like that experience.
DD: Really? Okay. Just doing it well.
DD: You strike me as a lifelong student, in a sense.
RJ: Yeah. Doing it well for yourself would be fine.
RJ: Thafs one of the answers. That's my stock answer, Г т still learning. I'm
absolutely a student. Charlie Miller, one of the greatest practitioners who ever
lived, had a copy of Modern Magic— Modern Magic was written in 1876— by his
GK: John, I was inspired to hearyou talk about teaching. You have been a very influential bedside when he died.
teacher both to artists in the studio and in universities.
DD: Have you ever had any challenges or even thoughts about paying it forward in a
JB: Right. sense? When the documentary [Deceptive Practice: The Mysteries and Mentors o f Ricky
Jay (2012)] came out, the challenge of capturing a man who doesn't talk about himself
GK: Ricky, there’s no great university for magic in that way. It’s by nature a very closed was clear.
system, right? And art has over the last few decades become a more open system. The movie became about these amazing mentors you had and even the ones you
John, when you talk to students, what is your take on having them be inspired by never met, the ones you knew through books. But after that movie came out— and I don’t
your work? Not having people mimic your output, but be inspired by the ideas of how you even know if it made it up the ladder to you—
— among the magic world there was a sense
made the work as opposed to what your work has become? that you had all these great mentors but you have never paid it forward. Not that you have
an obligation to, but that conversation happened and maybe continues to happen. Do you
JB: I’m thinking a lot of writers have done that. think about that ever? I mean, you have to be true to yourself. And if you're uncomfortable
being a teacher, I understand that as well.
GK: Yeah. But you have a lot of students that would count you as their mentor.
JB: Derek, I'm trying to understand the question.
JB: Yeah. And they write too.
DD: Ricky is one of the finest magicians on earth and knows more about magic than
[Laughter.] just about anyone. He's had a lot of teachers. But he has no traditional students the way you
have students.
GK: Do they copy you, or do you mind that at all?
JB: Oh, I see what you're saying.
JB: Well, I think there's always that temptation for one w riter to say, well, this
artist is not entirely original. There's elements of this artist and that artist. DD: So there is a perception of the end of a line, of a lineage of teaching thatterm inates
with Ricky.
RJ: But what about your students themselves?
RJ: Well, what you said before is even more poignant, not giving back. I must
GK: Ricky, you had talked earlier about being a role model and that just living an exem­ say Г т uncomfortable w ith that, because I think I do give back by w riting. IVe
plary life is, in the world of magic, one of the best things you can do. You are indeed an icon w ritten many books. But I don’t w rite books of how to do tricks, because I don’t
and an inspiration for how one should conduct themselves as a magician. think that’s the essence of the art. I’m not interested in that. And I’m not a good
teacher. Г т still a student. But, yeah, I find it somewhat odd that people who've

IHVSS3sv
RJ: You can't hope to be an icon or an inspiration. You can only hope to do made much less in terms of contributions would be judging that.
good work, because—
DD: Of course, that makes perfect sense. Especially when you frame what the actual
JB: Well, I had one student say the way I taught was, as I was always exhibit­ currency of the work is, which is the work. Secrets are just paint. It’s like you don’t want to
ing in Europe, I would come back into the classroom w ith a suitcase full of be a paint salesman and just give paint away. So that makes a lot of sense. CQ

ZK0f emVAVf ЛХ0Ш

catalogues of European exhibitions. And so I taught by passing on traditions.
RJ: On the other hand, when people approach me who exhibit skill or talent
DD: Hmm. Well, that’s pretty similar. or genuine interest and m erit， I th inkth e perception that I’m slamming the door in
their faces is simply wrong.

DD: Of course.
GK: The last area of discussion we have is that both practices require a leap of faith RJ: Well, but it s also interesting: your endpoint—
— right now for you in your 1
9
f

and a belief system that an engagement with the audience is meaningful. And there's an career_ is, “ I want to fool this audience.” There haven’t been so many times in my
instant social contract that happens when you're performing or when an audience member life when that was my major objective. Td say ifs certainly different than your thing.
comes in, a mutual belief from the artist or magician with the audience member, that what My primary objective has been to tell a story, the expression of my interest in magic
you’re going to experience is valuable and meaningful. How much do you think about the as performed for a specific audience.
audience when you're making your work?
DD: 〇h, that’s interesting. Because for me, unknowingness is the space that I’m trying
JB: Not at all. to create; I like to really make work in that space. And I need to get there first. I need to get
the audience to a place of absolute awe and wonder. That's the playground that I like to
RJ: See’ that’s really different. Because you can’t separate the audience 什om work in. Anything else for me— I don't have much of a hobbyist in me for trickery. I always
the performance. Am I doing something for you here? When I appeared on the think of your work as being very deceptive and 一 I’m not saying I find it hard to believe, but
7bn/^/7fS/?oi^when I w astw entyorw hatever itw asand it was a successful thing, the quality of your work is so high in terms of being deceptive that it seems like you value
I immediately got offers to work all over the place in situations that I wouldn't work blowing people’s minds more.
in. I worked in those years with my sleeves rolled up in an informal way—that was
all conscious. But it’s changed over the years too, just as I’m sure your art—well, RJ: Well, I value it, but you can achieve those things you were talking about
I'm not sure. I know your artwork has evolved and gone into manyareas. The way w ithout necessarily going to that level. You can achieve awe and excitement w ith­
I’ve approached what I’ve done has changed over the years as well. out setting out specifically to deceive. It sounds almost paradoxical, but it isn't.
For instance, to do a gambling expose that's artfully created and presented, youYe
JB: I’m probably lying a bit when I said no, when I’m painting something am not trying to fool somebody. You may be absolutely fooling them within the course
I thinking about an audience? Come on. I’ve got to sell w ork ，
don’t I? of what you choose to do, but that’s not the essence of it. The essence of it may
be to explain the difference between a card cheat and a magician, or to tell a per­
[Laughter.] sonal story about seeing someone who accom plished those feats of skill in
cheating. So that gets you into another issue as well. Do you want to show skill,
GK: But when youYe working with a curator presenting and organizing your show— with the idea that showing skill is less magical than apparently doing nothing and
magic happens. That opens another enormous issue, but—
JB: I leave them alone.
DD: No. I would agree with that, because I don’t have any interest in fooling people,
GK: Really? because fooling implies an intellectual process. But I do have a vested interest in creating
absolute awe. Fooling people is a way to awe, but that is not the goal. So I see what youYe
JB: Yeah. Because I want to see how they understand me. saying. The gambling-demonstration example, I think people sit there in awe watching you
deal out of the center of a deck or—
RJ: But if they do something that displeases you, do you want to change it
before the show opens? JB: Well, it makes me think of the whole idea of circus freaks; there you have
to get people to believe that theyYe real people, they're not freaks.
JB: I guess if something were hung wrong. I сапЧ take back the work. I did it.
RJ: Well, I can speak to that, because I've collected material on an early-
RJ: No, no, I understand [laughs]. eighteenth-century German magician who was twenty-nine inches tall and born
with no hands orfeet; he did extraordinary drawings and amazing micro-calligraphy.
JB: Maybe it could be hung differently. I could suggest it， but I’m not going I just had an exhibition at the Met [l/L^o厂dp/ay: /Waff/7/as 执ус/?/лде厂’
s D厂 from
to go against their wishes. the Collection o f Ricky 6)]. There are many people who thought that I made

I vsswalvg М
this up. The reviews that I got_ Peter Schjeldahi in the Л/ei/v Vb厂Are厂 actually wrote
DD: That's really a huge difference. Because the older I get and the more I think about
05
that he thought that this was Borgesian, that I had created—
these things— part of the challenge with magic is that in the strict sense of the craft, it's
purely objective. I feel the need to destroy your mind with the performance. The artistry DD: That's a compliment?
comes with how it's composed, what is added to or removed from it. It doesn't allow a lot
of room for subjectivity, because you have to consider what the audience is thinking and RJ: Yeah. I took it as the biggest compliment for the show and for the book.

ДО
follow those tracks. YouYe kind of a cartographer, in a sense. And that's not necessarily a

ГazvAvf AWOIH
Was this real or did I make this whole thing up?
subjective process.
JB: What’s your next book?
 RJ；
198 I’ve actually been commissioned to write a memoir, which has made me
TELLER DD: Derek DelGaudio
feel incredibly old. T: Teller
GK: Glenn Kaino
[Laughter]

DD: I know talking about yourself is not your favorite thing, but is w riting about your
history okay?

RJ: It's tough. There are stories you would prefer other people told [laughs]
about you that you can’t tell about yourself.
Interview with Teller, W Hotel, Westwood, California, July 1,2016

DD: Let's talk about art and magic. How are they similar and how are they different?

T: All viewers are equal before a work of art, so if the President and I are
looking at a Rembrandt, we are of the same status. That equality before art is a
very striking thing — Magic is the exact same thing. Before a fine piece of magie,
no person has any more status than anyone else.

DD: What is the role of art and the role of magic?

T: To me— and this might not be true for everybody 一the first job of a work
of art is to astound. If it does not astound, then anything else it might do is never
going to satisfy me. Then, on top of that, it can move, it can teach; there’s all sorts
of things it can do, but it must begin by astounding. I would not like [Johann
Sebastian] Bach if Bach didn’t astound me. I mean Bach wrote a lot of things about
stuff that I don’t give a shit about .丨don’t give a shit about Lutheranism, but the
music astounds me, so I w ill pay attention to it. And that astonishment, I think, has
been exploited in various ways—for example, by the Lutheran church—that the
music astounds you in a way that convinces you that the content is correct, when
the content, in my opinion, is probably not correct. I don't think that looking at the
world as a place where you’re supposed to suffer is a good idea; it just seems
wrong to me. But listen to the Saint M atthew Passion [1727] and, for that moment,
you think that's true, because you've been astounded in the right way.

DD: Do you think that there’s a distinction between art and craft, or a difference of
having an idea and being able to execute it?

T: Yes, of course.

DD: Like craft that’s done so well it transcends into art, or vice versa, do you know what
I'm saying?
daoHosao£-J91ao

T: Yeah. It’s a continuum. We were talking in the car about Otv厂Ma97.c[..TT7e

A rt in Magic, the Theory o f Magic, the Practice o f Magic, 1911], that divides magic
into false art, normal art, and high art.

GK: What's this?

T: It's a book by a couple of very influential people from the nineteenth

century, David Devant and John Nevil Maskelyne, and it's one of the first real theory
 books on magic. It talks about false art. False art is where you’re just copying
somebody else; it's just an imitation. Normal art is where you're doing something
like playing the blues correctly. You’re playing a nice blues song; you may even
have written the nice blues song. You're working within the form, from your own
point of view, but you’re not just copying something mindlessly that you don’t
understand. Then high art is where you take some form, and you do with it some­
thing highly original that elevates the audience. Normal art is not to be sniffed at.
We need normal art. We need elevator music. We need music at the bar. We need
to sing “ Happy Birthday” at birthday parties. That’s all normal art. But we also really
need the high art.
GK: That's great.
T: It’s a good book. It has merit in—
— who's that mechanistic guy who wrote
a lot of books?
DD: Dariel Fitzkee, who was the worst.
T: Fitzkee— he was almost trying to provide a recipe for false art.
DD: Fitzkee is like Robert McKee, who does seminars on film w riting—
— T:
T: Robert McKee and Dariel Fitzkee both look at existing works of art and
pull out the mechanistic elements and say, “ If you put those all together into some-
thing, you w ill have something successful." So for Fitzkee, what makes a good
show? Youth, coordinated movement, bright colors. And there's very little in
Fitzkee that isn't all about false art. Mind you, it's not bad to know about any of that
stuff. But Robert McKee knows nothing about storytelling. What great work has
Robert McKee written, huh? Anything? No, because he’s got nothing to say. He’s
talking about how to say what people have said before. Could he have written
Psycho [1960]? No, I don't think so.
DD: I can’t speak to this on the art side, but I’ve found that there are people who perform
and write about magic that probably shouldn't perform, but their w riting is actually quite
good. And vice versa sometimes, where maybe they don't w rite very well, or theyYe not
good at theorizing, but they’re excellent at performing. There’s no distinction in magic;
there’s no curators. There’s no critical class. Do you think there’s room for that, or should
there be room for that?
T: Sure. There's always room for that. There's room for everything. It's art,
you know? You can have whatever the hell you want.
DD: Do you think it's a problem that it doesn't exist?
GK: I don't know. Aren't there a lot of people who write intellectual, critical stuff about
magic?
T: No. These are people who perform. It doesn’t mean they’re curators for
art. There are no real magic scholars. Bill Kalush is the closest thing— a guy who
just sits and reads and thinks about magic. He might be wrong in some areas, but
he just does that, and sells potatoes.
DD: A lot of potatoes.
GK: I don4 see why doing it should disqualify you from writing about it.
T: rd be happy to have people who just observed and commented, that
would be fine. They'd probably be wrong, because magic is so full of inviting ideas
that are wrong, that sound so good. I mean, that whole school of mystical stuff in
connection with magic. Magic is nota very good vehicle for mystical stuff, because
magic is all about the difference between what you see and what you don’t. It’s all
about looking at something and going, ‘T hat doesn’t seem possible, but it’s hap-
pening.” That’s a fundamental part of magie, and you can’t really ask an audience
to sit back and give up their critical faculties. They can't do it. People pretend they
can, and the result is there are performers who tell endlessly long-winded stories
about mystical things in mystical terms, and play the drums, or whatever. And
they're never really going to be able to be taken seriously by the public. It sounds
great, in theory, but I don't th inkth at pure theory on magic is all that helpful in the
absence of performing experience.
DD: You were saying the foundation is truth—
Well, Penn’s version of what I just said is, “The subject of magic is the
truth. What is the truth in any given situation?" That's a very fruitful subject. I say
that magic is about a fundamental conflict between what you see and what you
know. Ifs about cognitive dissonance. \X's about that double vision. Where some­
body like Shakespeare beats his brains out to make you aware that youYe sitting
in a theater watching a show— he*ll have the players come on stage in Hamlet, and
he’ll have Hamlet give them advice about how to act, which is so hilariously funny.
That is to remind you that you're watching a show. Magic does that with any given
moment, because magic—you can't watch magic passively. It does not wash over
you. You watch it一 “Wait, that’s wrong. What's wrong with that? How do I know it?”
So I like the idea of the collision of what you see and what you know; I think that
the colliding of those tw o things is what is the signal element of magic.
DD: Why doyou like it? I think I like the idea that you're provoking people to thinkabout
how that might be done, and they all might have a different idea. You might perform in a
room of a thousand people, and the people might have a thousand different ideas of how
that's done, provoked from this one little gap that youVe created.
T: I was also comparing it. I believe that a work of art on a wall—
— if it does
not mystify, it failed. The mystification, astonishment at something, this fundamen­
tal thing where 'That's not nature; that's something different. Thafs not something
a person could do. Ifs beyond what a person could do": that's what makes me like
a work of art. That’s an element, so if it has that, I can then move on to other things.
If it doesn't have that, I will never be interested in it.
Actors who fully convey to an audience the motives of their characters
fail. In real life, we never know what someone else is thinking. So an actor who lays
it all out for us is functional but never great, because a great actor will always make
us go, “What’s going on in that guy’s head at any given moment?” I demand that
level of mystery in any art form, and I demand it in an actor, I demand it in a film.
It’s one of the weak points, I think, of superhero movies, that we all know how
everything is done. So we're no longer really astounded. We go, <40h, wow, there
 he is flying through the air.” Who gives a fuck? Because once you have those digital
transformations, you no longer know what the rules are， and so there’s no way to
measure your astonishment. I'm awed by the swordfight in Robin Hood [1938]
between Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone. I’m awed by that because I don't know
how the fuck they’re doing it.
I love watching amateur magicians. There are other things they could be doing,
like killing peop 丨
e. Instead, they’re trying to make art, and even if it’s a shabby
little bit of art th a t 丨
s not really original they’ve learned to do it, they’re trying to
create beauty. And people who are trying to create beauty are okay by me, even
if they’re crappy.
DD: I feel like there’s a conversation there. I don’t know how to start it, but—
T: Yes, there is. I mean, they’re not as okay if they’re crappy.
DD: It's an articulation, because I think both ways can get you to great art. I thinkthere
are different ways to manufacture hope and love, and they don't necessarily need to come
from the same place. And so part of the reason that Glenn and I initially connected was it
didn’t come 什om a place of “ It’s all great， and it’s all good.” It came 什om feeling our respec-
tive fields are in crisis and that we can't sit idly by or be a part of these systems, even if
they’re informal, based on communities or social contracts or whatever. And so a lot of the
work that we have generated has come 什om a place not of “ It’s all good” but ^om a place
of “ It 丨
s not all good, and you fuckers need to get your shit together.”
T: Sure. Once you Ve said, “ It’s all good,” then you can say, “ It’s not all good.”
DD: Right.
T: Once you’ve said, “ Making art is better than killing people, and bad art
doesn’t hurt children.” As I’ve often said， and you’ll hate me for this, but in any
argument between tw o people about whether a work of art is good or not, the
person who likes it is right.
DD: I agree with that.
T: Because they are the audience for which this was created.
GK: But I think our observation when we first met was that the art world had become
hyper-professionalized, stratified, and quantified. And the magic and nuance and subtlety
and poetics were being extracted and ignored for these other substitute values, which had
СШ0Н0S 8 0
less to do with astonishment and wonder but more to do with how to create, like the other
w riter you had said, Robert McKee, how to make a good piece of art. And the art w orld’s
normal had become that.
」
91§
T: Someone said to me that the world of magic was a handful of profession­
als in a sea of hobbyists.
3H1
M iiiiiiiiiii
DD: That was me. The notion is that there was not enough effort, lefs say, to expand
the respect.
T: Johnny Thompson says, “ Most magicians stop thinking too soon.” There
is a great wisdom in that. They stop thinking once a trick works; they think they're
done with it__
That is easy to apply to almost any work of art that's really good. As with
the actor who doesn't reveal his motives, magic that keeps its secret remains alive
in a way that it doesn't when ifs fu lly understood. When I think I really understand
something, then Г т done with It. I have to be able to keep turning it around. The
place where I most explicitlythoughtabout what people were thinking from instant
to instant was on my red ball trick. There were about eight or nine months of just
messing around with experiments, just to learn what was possible w ith it. And
then when I came to construct it, I specifically and literally thought at every
moment, “ 〇kay， what do they think is going on right now?” Let’s let them come a
little ways along there， and then let’s crack that; and let’s 丨
et them come a little
ways longer， and let’s crack that. And the crackings continue: that’s part of the
structure.
DD: Penn also starts the trick by saying ，
“ Here’s a trick with a piece of thread.”
T: That came very late. I had constructed that whole routine, and Penn said,
“This is great. It’s wonderful for anybody else’s show. We need something else to
make it ours.” I said, “Well, you know the people who enjoy this stuff most are the
magicians who are watching it to help me construct the routine. And they know
there's thread there. So maybe start out by showing the thread, and then we do all
of this that contradicts the existence of the thread•，
’ Well, we did some experiments
with that， and it wasn’t a good idea. Eventually I said to Penn, “Well， why don’t we
just say, ‘Here’s a trick that’s done with a piece of thread and a special backdrop?”
Penn says，
“ 〇h ，
no, no, no. All you need is，
‘Here’s a trick that’s done with a piece
of thread,' because that tells them so much, and it brings them over onto our side."
I did it that way for four or five years before I sat Penn down at Starbucks
and said ，
“There’s something missing. The ending of it is just the ball chasing me
upstage. It's not the fulfillm ent of the promise that we made." So we spent days in
the theater with Johnny Thompson watching us, experimenting with ways to real­
ize thatvisual attheend of it. We tried pulling atthe backdrop. We tried illuminating
the thread from over the top. We tried sailing something down the thread. And
then finally someone said, Hl think I've got it. Why don't you pretend to cut the
thread?” And I said， “Why don’t we just cut the thread?” And that’s what ended up
being the answer to the question that I'd been raising for five years, and never
knowing the answer to.
DD: It’s in a very similar space about knowing and not knowing. I’m going to key in on
a word that you just said because it’s an amazing place to start to talk about that. Penn told
you "our side, it would bring the audience to our side." What is that side? How do you
describe that side?
T： That sentence was inspired by something. We had both just read Steve
Martin's autobiography, in which he says that when he was doing his early stuff,
he would throw out anything that he saw in anybody else's show. Now in our
early days, we decided to do Cups and Balls with clear cups. We thought it was a
 wonderful idea, because you would first watch the illusion with opaque cups,
then you would watch the method as the illusion was repeated with clear cups,
and it would be like tw o-part counterpoint. You'd be watching those two things
happening at the same time. We thought that if you were moving at a sufficiently
rapid speed, the audience would be astounded by the interaction, much like you
are by counterpoint.
But you can’t say that to an audience, right? You can’t say, “Oh, look at the
lovely counterpoint between what you see and what you now understand." So we
came up with the notion of how this was an expose of how Cups and Balls was
done. And we thought it would be really funny to say that magicians were upset
by this. No one was actually upset, but we thought it would be funny to say that.
Well, it got back to the Magic Castle that we were explaining how Cups and Balls
was done. And some magicians went crazy. They got very upset over this. One of
these guys was Ricki Dunn, a cruise-ship pickpocket magician; he came to the
show, and he actually took a swing at Penn in the lobby.
DD: What?
T: Penn said, "Calm down. We gotta just go out and talk about it.'1[Laughter.]
So we met at Musso and Frank's, and Ricki said to us, "The question is, whose side
are you on, anyway?" And that is a very widespread idea in magic that I don4think
you’ll find very often in the other arts. I don't think you’ll find an us-versus-them
sensibility in rock-and-roll much of the time. But in magic it is very common. Of
course it’s there; there is a conflict. You are, “At your behest, audience member, I
am trying to put one over on you. YouVe asked me to do this." I think some magi­
cians forget that there^s this fundamental step where you Ve said, 'Please do this
for me, as a service for me.M,The result is there is an us-and-them thing that is now
built into audiences, where audiences have been insulted and mistreated by magi­
cians who condescend to them, because they couldn't figure out a trick. So it has
always been our policy to acknowledge that, and to present a peace offering to
the audiences that have been insulted by that alienation that magicians have so
often inflicted upon them.
The peace offering of Cups and Balls is one; the peace offering of Looks
Simple is another. Another thing is the entire television series B ullshit!... The real
subject of Looks Simple is the question, "What if the entire world around you, all
the most ordinary things, were all magic tricks being done to simulate common­
place reality?" This is a delicious, delicious idea. Magicians should look at that
trick and say, “Ooh, I could do another version of that,” and they’d be right, they
should do it. They should rip us off in this fundamental idea if they can think of
something as clever and right as Looks Simple.
dao§
GK: When you start talking about the us-and-them, I think it's really interesting because
you and Penn create a third space, because there certainly is “the power of the magician”
о
о and the social contract of the audience that's so imbalanced by nature of the agreement.
бол-ло-ЈЛО ИН1
Like, as an audience member, I need to know less because the unraveling of a secret
is what I’m there for. I’m there to see something that I don’t know, or to be deceived in
that way.
But I keep on thinking when you said "our side” that you were talking—
— it felt to me
like a club, where you guys are creating a space in between the all-knowing of the magician
m m Mmill
and the not-knowing of the audience. It's like they know enough to be in on it to appreciate
it, as if they were inside the club. There's a camaraderie, a generosity, a hopefulness
there: that is a different access point than the subordinate “ Please show me something
amazing.”
T: We may be the only people who have ever articulated that everybody in
the audience knows about magic. Not a lot, but almost everybody's had a magic
kit. Everybody's read a biography of Houdini. Everybody knows a certain amount
about magie. Magicians come out w ith the attitude that they’re performing for
benighted savages. So any magician who brings out the linking rings is bringing
out the linking rings for people w ho’ve had them in a magic set. That’s a fabulous
universal. All of the arts strive for universals, and this wonderful thing that our
culture has given us, the shared commonality of knowing a little bit about magic,
is a marvelous universal. We are among the only people who exploit this to its full
potential. And we strive to exploit this all the time; we think about it a tremendous
amount, that people know magic.
GK: Yeah, ifs really interesting, because everyone has had a watercolor kit, right?They
still g o to museums.
T: Yeah. If they’ve done watercolor in any primitive way，when they see how
somebody can make that flow and make it look like light, they are more astounded
than I am.
DD: Exactly.
GK: Why don’t magicians understand that?
DD: The answer is the social currency of secrecy and the self-worth that you apply to
it. If your value system becomes solely about "This is my secret, nobody else's," then you're
going protect it the way一
T: But you do that in the arts. You know, I did Tim's Vermeer [2013]. When
artists had guilds during the Middle Ages, their individual skills were referred
to as “their mystery.” You don’t give out your trade secrets. You don’t tell how you
do your plumbing. That’s your proprietary information. That’s the same kind of
information th a t’s preserved very carefully in the formula for Coca-Cola and
programming.
GK: You and Penn have figured out a way to make secrecy inclusive. That’s amazing
because no one really does that. That's not a thing people do.
T: It is one element of what we do. Ifs sort of like saying, "Good evening. We
know you’re an educated person. Come in and sit down. Yes, we do have some
things in common. Now here's some stuff that you might not knowabout." So you
do them a courtesy, an invitation to say, “We know you know something.”
DD: Respect. You're giving them respect.
—
T: The respect that they fully deserve.
31
 DD: 77/77’s l/em?ee厂is a perfect example. That whole movie very much brings up the
question “what is art ”
？Like you said， scientists can “do” it. Did you care about that at all, or
were you more interested in Tim and his process?
T: It's all there. All of those levels are there.
DD: You were known as the guys who would expose secrets. Do you still value secrets
in some regard? Shadows would be an example of something you protect a lot一
T: The Shadows thing， that wasn’t about the secrets. That’s the way it was
written about in so many magazines, and I was completely baffled by that.
DD: But people don’t know how that trick works.
T: They don't know how the trick works, and I don't care.
DD: You don4? I'd call bullshit on that; if someone were out there publishing how that
worked， you wouldn’t be infuriated?
T: I w ouldn’t be pleased with that, but I’ll tell you, it never does any harm in
fact to anybody. Never ever. It’s just a ridiculous thing that the Magic Castle of
England will not admit Penn and Teller.
DD: Is that true?
T: Yes. Hallowed place. They will not admit Penn and Teller because they
feel their membership would rise up in anger over us exposing secrets.
DD: But that's an interesting point. You guys are educated, and you understand how
you’re positioning the w ork， so isn’t that a matter of which secrets you let out? Presumably
there are secrets that completely destroy the ability to see the work for what it should be,
if the secret is known. Or do you feel like it doesn’t matter?
T: If you work hard enough and look hard enough, you can pretty much
figure out the secret to any magic thing. You can just search the internet. It’s really
hard to say, because I used to think there was more validity to that than I do now.
DD: Is it possible it’s because of status? Your commerce is based on trade secrets,
literally, but there’s a point where that becomes less relevant because of your name, your
brand.
T: When you’re in the theater, you’re not bringing in a lot of the information
that you have in your head. It shocks me how much you can know and then, when you watch
c m o H o 8поол-б-ЈЛО 3HJL
the performance, forget. As an artistic rule， keeping magic’s secrets from spectators is a
good idea, because it allows them the dramatic experience of seeing and not understand­
ing, which is part of what the experience is. Ifs a rule in the same way that you should not
use parallel fifths. You should not give a vocalist a tri-tone skiff. If you're playing tonal music,
you should land with the dominant and then the tonic. You should do all of those things.
DD: So it’s a rule meant to be broken—
T: Ifs a rule that benefits from being stretched.
DD: Or to call backto a prior conversation, it's a rule that exists within good art, but not
high art.
T: Generally speaking, to make good stuff, follow the rule. To make great
things, break the rule.
GK: Do you feel like there's any correlation between guarding a secret to protect that
astonishment and wonder in art? I feel like there’s a direct connection. There’s an integrity
to those moments because of their ignorance about how something functions. To give or
allow the viewer to get something that deprives them of the greater gift is part of the prob­
lem with secrets.
T: As a rule, not explaining how magic tricks are done is part of the job.
DD: No, you're hearing me wrong. I love the things you guys have done. Г т just talking
about the greater—
T: The job of the artist is to show the beautiful and hide the ugly.
DD: That’s an interesting rule.
T: The best magic secrets are ugly.
DD: Not in this show. [Laughter.] The secrets are so good, so beautiful, the secrets are
fucking staggering. To me that’s where poetry is created, when the secrets are even more,
in some ways, beautiful than the effect. And the effect is pretty fucking good. That sacrifice
is where some of the invisible poetics lie， because it’s the depth, you know? There’s so
much more there that you're choosing not to reveal. Like an actor not revealing all of his
emotions.
T: So you’re depriving the audience of a lot of pleasure. Is that what you’re
saying?
DD: No. I am depriving them of knowledge fora greater pleasure. I thinkthat knowledge
and wonder and astonishment don't have to be connected. I think the viewer using the
knowledge they have to give to them that moment is important, but I think there’s a tipping
point where knowledge then starts to eat into poetics, starts to eat into a space of wonder,
space of astonishment, and space of uncertainty.
T: But wait. There is a kind of pleasure and joy that you get from knowing
the secrets in your show.
DD: One hundred percent， but it’s actually a burden; it sucks to have to protect those
secrets. I w ork at protecting the things weVe built. It's about preservation of the thing that
you’ve made, and that is important. I think if you crafted something you’re proud of, that
says something and is specific; I don’t want to ruin that by making it about a secret. It’s a
case-by-case situation. But specifically, there are things that we need to protect, the knowl­
edge of this changes what this is.
 T: Yeah, I think it's interesting. For the Linking Rings or the Invisible Deck,
everyone who does those pieces in their routine, there has to be a forced cama­
raderie with everyone else doing those pieces, right? Because if someone screws
that up and exposes how that works, it’s a one-way path of exposure. So there’s a
responsibility in that way, unlike in this show, where we started with the experience
that we wanted the viewer to feel and crafted a spectacle with that feeling, but not
really trading on existing secrets in that way.
GK: Right. It's about making sure that the ideas represented are legible and close to
what we envisioned. Part of the sacrifice or half the problem is worrying about the secrets,
which matter to people.
DD: I don’t really care about the secrets in that regard. I expose center deals, second
deals, bottom deals, and shit in the shows. I don?t have any problem with exposing things
at all. People may say， “You shouldn’t give away secrets” or “ It’s okay,” but there’s no real
discourse about what it means to have a secret and to give a secret.
T: You’re always finding your way. T_ S. Eliot says something like, “Old men
ought to be explorers." You have words only for the thoughts that you no longer
wish to express, or the ways that you no longer wish to express them. So every
attempt is a new beginning, and a new raid on the inarticulate. So I don’t know if
w e’ve learned anything, because it’s moving target. I love your swagger about
secrets in your show. What just came out of you is a very interesting idea that in
some future show, you may want to explore.
DD: Which one?
T: The idea that these secrets are very cool. That is a very interesting idea
that I've never heard anyone of your level of ironic understanding express before.
It’s a beautiful， important idea that crosses everybody’s mind all the time: what if
the secrets were really good?
DD: They have to be good, though, or ifs just bullshit. What is a secret w orth keep­
ing?一 I guess that really is the question. How can a secret be a good thing, not necessarily
a negative thing? Because usually there are negative connotations that go with secrecy.
But there are some secrets that have the potential to create something beautiful.
T: Yeah, but I’m talking about a topic for you to think about: your pleasure
in a great secret. That is a very interesting idea that comes right out of your id, you
know? I don't know where that would lead you, but it feels—
DD: Or when Gaetan Bloom does a thing and then explains it, or Tommy Wonder
explains how he does everything he’s ever done? And those are cool fucking secrets! It’s
dflOHO
like, "Jesus Christ, this guy put so much thought into this."
的 бол
T: Well, that to me makes them ugly. I like my beauty simple. When some­
丨 Л9ЈЛ0 3 M 1
thing is very complicated ... like the Bullet Catch, the Bullet Catch is nothing but
ugliness. It's something Robby Libenar, our form er director of covert activities,
now our crew boss, calls a shma. Shma is crucial knitting, doing vast amounts of
work that the audience is unaware of in order to create a very simple effect. It's
hideous. Shadows is ugly as shit; the method is shma. It’s a lot of little fussy bullshit
that’s ultimately very simple and misdirected bythe beauty of the idea. The beauty
of the idea dominates so much that the secret must be cool， but it’s not cool ，
it’s
just being done the way it has to be done.
DD: I guess we*re saying the same thing from different ends of the spectrum. The
beauty comes in the sim plicity of the actual intent, like Shadows.
GK: The fact that you guys are coming at it from different angles is what is exciting to
me」 think the fact that you appreciate the mechanics of that secret, and he thinks it’s shma:
th afs awesome. One man's shma is another man's cool. [Laughs.]
DD: Totally.That goes backtoyou being optimistic, and mefightingfrom a placeof crisis—
GK: But that's a reversal.
DD: No, I think most magicians don4 value the secrets they carry or have.
GK: I'mthinking it'sa reversal in hope, then, because you thinkthatthat's beautifuland
hopeful， as do I， and the crew boss thinks it’s shma.
T: Well,丨
have an article in our current program called “ I love the stuff you
never see." I love it all. I love that shma. I do not think it's beautiful, per se.
DD: I think what it can create is beautiful. The secrets are almost never beautiful, but
they can be—
GK: Let's talk about beauty.
T: Let’stalkabout a trick we all knowabout. Is the secretto the Linking Rings
cool? If you didn't know how the Linking Rings worked and then somebody
explained it to you, would you say, “That’s so fucking cool”?
DD: N 0 , it’s what you do with it.
T: See, I would say the secret to the Linking Rings is cool, because the secret
is that when you see a bunch of objects that appear to be identical, you assume
that they are identical. That is a very fundamental brain process. It’s like M iser’s
Dream: every tim e you see a coin produced, you figure it’s being produced the
same way, but that thing's being switched up constantly. The idea that there are
rings that you can visibly link and rings that are prelinked, and that those slide
by you in an im perceptible way in an artful performance, seems profoundly
cool. But in the David P. Abbott book, you read his routine w ith the thirteen or
fourteen rings, and you imagine being in his parlor handling these rings and watch­
ing them link and unlink; the experience must have been breathtaking. Or when
you read about Ching Ling Foo having all his rings passed out separately among
the audience and then brought up on stage, and then doing all of that stuff
with them —
At the same tim e it’s hideously ugly， because the idea of rings melting
through one another is so beautiful and so simple, that the idea of accomplishing
H3T131
that by conflating several processes 一 it's so low, ifs so hideous, ifs so awful.
And ifs so cool, if you took a fresh look at it. I have proposed that we order an
 international ban on the Linking Rings for the next twenty years, so that we have
a chance to rediscover how cool it is.
DD: Yeah, the symphony of the rings and things like that are beautiful, but I don't think
that's the secret. I guess I look at the secret as the hole in the ring, and everything on top
of that is the craft or artistry of the performer. The secret is a thing you could literally set in
the corner; ifs a ring with a gap in it. And then everything from that point on is the artistry
that the magician brings to those rings.
T: But th a fs only a fragment of the secret of the Linking Rings. You know
the real secret is that repetition doesn't have to be done by the same method.
That’s a profound secret.
DD: Yeah, using your knowledge against you.
DD: That makes perfect sense to me. I guess I think that it’s irrelevant what the secret
is. It can be a fake method; it's just as bad. Giving away the fake method so they think th a fs
how it’s done is the same as giving away how it’s really done.
T: Yes.
DD: And so to me, there’s no difference between a really cool secret and a really ugly
and simple secret. But I think that if sharing a secret destroys Shadows, I think there’s a
correlation there.
T: That particular piece is odd, because it contains such romantic images;
you don't get roses, shadows, daggers, and blood in tw o minutes of theater in
almost anything. Anyone who applied ten seconds of pure, intellectual thought to
that would get essentially how the trick was done.

T: Using what human beings are good at, which is pattern recognition, DD: I d o n ^th in k th a t^tru e . In fact, I know th a fs not true. I know really smart magicians
against them. I think it’s fascinating. And it’s hideous, and it’s ugly, and we hide it who don't know how that tric e s done. That mystery is super compelling forthem , but it also
for good and sufficient reason. It’s an interesting topic for you. allows them to enjoy the piece the way it's intended.

DD: Secrecy?
T: Yeah. Your demeanor changes when we talk about it. You seem irritated,
proud, swaggering, and slightly apologetic. All that means is that it means a great
deal to you and should be the subject for a show.
DD: Where I get worked up is, I don’t necessarily believe what you’re saying. From the
work that you’ve done ,丨
think there’s some contradictory actions and statements in that. I
thinkthat Shadows has been a value-protected secret, despite how ugly it is. I don't believe
that that trick is as beautiful and poetic and meaningful if you handed the viewer how that
worked before they walked in the door. I don't buy that.
T: No. What I’m saying is you could do Shadows by other means than the
ones I use.
DD: Oh, I'm sure, but that's irrelevant, too.
T: It is irrelevant? One of the great, abiding irritations on that whole Shadows
[copyright infringem ent lawsuit] experience was that almost every article that
came out said this was about protecting the secret of the trick.
T: But I guess what I’m saying is the reason that they’re not thinking of how
it’s done is because the effect speaks so profoundly to their own experience. That’s
w hat’s actually fooling them; it’s not the m ethod It’s this deep, deep meaning of
this deep, deep sense of causality that is irresistible. I mean when Г т doing it, I
know how the trick is done, and I often get chills because the experience of doing
it is so much like the way primeval people think. So it isn’t the method that’s fooling
them; it's the effect.
GK: I remember first seeing the hole in the Linking Rings and going, “That’s it?” And
then watching someone skillful like Shoot Ogawa do it. Shoot said something interesting
to me: “ Don’t look at the hole too much, even though you’re performing it, because you’re
going to know more that the hole is there.’’ So when I perform it, I don’t look at the hole at all.
There’s no small secret. That’s the thing that I think I’m really compelled by. It’s
like the secret has tw o faces: the knowledge that the secret exists, and then the secret
knowledge itself. And the knowledge that the secret exists is the effect; it’s what you see,
it's the beauty, in one respect. And then there's this infinitely deep but also super shallow
possibility of what that secret could be, all at the same time.
T: So if we take the idea that the secret of the linking rings is the hole, we
are looking at it from the ugly point of view.

DD: It was protecting the piece. DD: Yeah.

T: It’s protecting the effect. It’s protecting what the audience sees, not what T: If, however, we add the worst term in magic— “ m isdirection”一 a good
d§

they don't see. We were dealing w ith a person who had reproduced a portion of magic trick is always done by means of two tricks, at least: the trick that accom­
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the effect by a completely different method. In that situation, to an audience, it plishes the effect, and the trick that hides the trick. So if youYe going float a
s n o£ A 9J L §

makes no difference. lady, you put a fo rklift onstage w ith a bar behind it. But there's a second trick,
which is the ring that passes over her. That second trick hides the first trick.
DD: Agreed. The second trick that hides the first trick is the misdirection. That's my definition
of misdirection.

I 3 J L
T: So there’s two commodities w e’re talking about. We’re talking about the
idea of the trick, and we’re talking about how it’s accomplished. That’s what I mean. DD: Oh, interesting.

niiiiiiiiiiii
 T: Ifs a terrible word, because first of all, it postulates an oppositional rela­
tionship, saying that what you're trying to do is make them look in the wrong place.
No 一you are trying to make them look in the right place, that is the whole point of
the activity. To us, to the people who make art— misdirection is gorgeous. It’s
fascinating. It is the secret part of art that gives us a pleasure that the audience
w ill never be able to have, because we know its power, and we admire its
ingenuity.
GK: We did a video of a Linking Rings routine. I had someone else perform it and I was
shooting it; he was dressed in black, and I chroma-keyed him out later. This became a film
[The Linking Rings] that's now in the collection of the Orange County Museum of Art. The
film shows these beautiful circles, with no magician attached. It's basically like a moving
Venn diagram, where the spaces in between sort of work.
DD: You think it forces the audience to bring more to the performance? 213
T: Ifs partly that. Very contrary to what you think with stylized mime, it also
becomes minimal. If nothing is happening, and then you turn and look at some­
thing, it's huge. Richard Burton used to ta lka bo u tth e power of stillness. If you see
any of his work you,ll see that one of the things he does is he will just freeze and
hold. And there's this power that comes from there. You see it in Buster Keaton.
The Smothers Brothers said to us once, "You guys knew from the very start what
we only discovered after performing twenty or thirty years together, which is if one
guy talks a lot and the other guy is silent， the audience thinks the other guy’s
thinking.” It puts them inside of you__
You look at magic shows where they play loud popular music in order to
influence your emotions: Г т floating a lady in the air, so Г11 play "The Raiders of
the Lost Ark” so you’ll feel like you’re having an adventure. Fuck that shit. That just
seems the worst kind of cheating.

DD: Do you guys think of yourselves as artists?

T: You mean, like, with an e at the end of the word, like artiste?

DD: Yeah. I know you guys make movies about artists, and I think you guys are. How
do you guys feel about performing to the public in the way you do, given the substantial
nature of the work that you are actually performing? What does that mean to you?

T: WeVe tried in vain to sell out! [Laughter.] Ifs not something we're good at.

DD: Oh, one last question.

T: Yeah.

DD: Your silence on stage. That’s a choice?

T: Yeah. Ifs been a very interesting experience. It began as a rebellion

against patter, because I felt that almost all patter was redundant. Patter was tell­
ing you what to think instead of presenting you with information and allowing you
to create the story. Most magic patter is, "I am holding here a key card. Г т going
to place that into my left hand, and now this will happen." It was expository about
something that has already been exposed. [Laughter.] So it began in that vein. I
am borderline obsessed with elegance, simplicity, and plot. For example, you will
rarely find me at a concert that has more than five people involved in performing.
Ideally, Г т listening to a solo pianist, three people in a jazz trio. You paint
СШ0Н0snog-VJO-lflo

a lot of saints on a ceiling, I don4 care. I want simple, I want small. I want one per­
son, one idea, a conversation between two or three people. I like simplicity. So
anyway, I come in w ith this idea that I love starkness. Don't give me a large
Broadway musical. What you start to understand, after youVe done silence a long
time, is that when you take words away, there is a kind of intimacy that is forced
upon the viewer. They're looking at you, you're looking at them, and everyone is

—
w J

unprotected by words, and the intimacy is astounding, and very strong, and very
Ixl

3 1
sexy to me.
L
 Derek DelGaudio DD: That was the first tim e that had been done like that—
— because people had been 1
5
14
DAVID BLAINE DD:
DB: David Blaine buried alive, like H oudini...
GK: Glenn Kaino
AB: A.Bandit DB: I think it was the first real one, maybe. I mean, the first real one that was
done on purpose …

DD: People have died and were buried?

Interview with David Blaine, Blaine residence, Los Angeles, March 9,2016
DD: Lefs start with a generic question. Why magic?Out of all th ething sth at you could
do, why magic?
DB: I think it was just because I started so young. I became absorbed in that
world at the age of four. It was a deck of cards— it was that simple. It was a deck
of cards and the fact that I was born with my feet turned in, so I was not as physi­
cally capable as the other kids. I would do things to compete with them physically,
but odd things that they weren't good at. Like, I'd hold my breath under water for
as long as I could while they were swimming laps. So those two things I ended up
combining, I guess. But also magic, it's not just a digital fixation, although that is
part of it, it's almost like a meditation—
— using cards that flow through your hands.
But the other part of it is logic, science, math, psychology, chess 一 everything
applied.
DD: And why do you think you gravitated toward the real or toward blurring the line of
the real versus doing just tricks?
DB: Why did I like to do things that are real?
GK: You grew up with cards and thinking of magic as an illusion. When did you have
the idea of creating a tension between the real and the illusory?
DB: I think that part of it came from just watching people respond to things.
As you know, you can do a one-handed shuffle and get people to react. Or when I
would hold my breath fora long period of time, I'd come up purple and almost black
out, but everyone would go crazy. I'd swim seven laps under a pool, to the point of
blacking out, and then get that response.
DD: Didn’t you also adopt the position— speaking about Buried Alive, for example,
which was your first stunt 一 of insisting on being in it for real?
СШ0Н08аом-л91ао 3Hi
DB: Yeah, people that were thought dead but weren’t really, and they were
brought up banging on the box!
GK: Do you consider that a magic trick?
DB: It’s hard to explain. Well, I guess it’s not hard to explain to you guys. I’ve
been working on the perfect shuffle for ten years now. Whenever I hit it, it feels to
me like a magic trick. Nobody that ever sees it would think ifs a magic trick, but
to me itfeels magical because it’s something that I know is almost impossible, but
not really. So it's like that_ it seems impossible, but no, it’s very possible. And I
think anybody could do it.
GK: I think a lot of what we're interested in and what weVe talked about, and I think
you have expressed it in your practice, is this notion that there's an action that you per­
form 一 it’s something that in one way is contextualized as magie, and in another way it’s
contextualized as a type of art. The world sees it in a different way. It's interesting that people
say, “ David Blaine is a magician— he buried himself alive for several days.” They correlate
that with a magic trick, so it raises this notion that that could be an illusion and maybe you
didn't do it, when in fact you fought hard to actually do it.
DB: I grew up studying Marina Abramovic and Chris Burden. There were a lot
of performance artists I was obsessed with, and then also guys like Houdini who
to me were doing similarthings. He was doing performance art— he would dangle
off of a building— but because he was presenting it in a big way, people didn't look
at it as art, they looked at it as magic. But really, ifs not a magic trick—the guy is
dangling upside down off of a building in a straitjacket, struggling to escape. To
me it was just a beautiful image, which therefore put it in the same category as art.
I th ink the advantage I had back then was very few people knew who they
[Abramovic and Burden] were.
I think part of the allure was the question mark. Because if you know
somebody is climbing M ount Everest, you just accept, okay, this is a mountain
climber, hefs gonna climb it. But if I was gonna climb Mount Everest, people would
say, “What’s the trick?” Which makes it more a topic of conversation, is he climbing
it or is he not? It’s that question that made it into something that you could play
out but at the same tim e that took it out of the art world. It brought the art world to

DB: It wasn’t just discussed— it was an argument with Bill Kalush. He said, say，
“That’s not art, it’s mainstream.1’
“Yeah, you should do Buried Alive. We’ll dig a hole in Central Park, put you in there
in front of everybody, and you sneak out, come back a month later/* I said, "well, GK: So that was a conscious decision?
that sounds boring, they w on't believe it if they сапЧ see it." So I said I should bury

myself in a see-through coffin underwater, so you can see that Г т buried under­
neath and know that I'm there the whole time. We fought about that.
3NIV13 9луа
DB: It wasn’t a conscious decision at all. I think ultimately I looked at things
that were interesting to me in a visual way. So even the concept of the first magic
show I did, it was, "How do you make it visually work?" And the way you do that is
you capture people's expressions, you know?

16 DD: Does it bother you that there’s a difference, if they categorize what you do as magie
or performance art?
DB: No, ГН tell you the reason why. It would be hypocritical if it did, because
if I saw a magician go out and do something， whether it’s drop out of an airplane
in a box or dangle up, I’m saying ，
“w hat’s the trick?” I don’t believe it， because I’m
the first skeptic out there. I’m always trying to figure out what’s behind everything.
So for people to get upset that people are looking at my things and saying, HWell,
w hat’s the trick? I f s a hologram, or he’s not really there, or he’s not really doing it,
or how is he doing it?”—
— that's part of the territory.
GK: Because you designed that into how the audience will receive it?
DB: It wasn’t even designed. It was just something that just felt right. But it’s
funny, because it has created a lot of confusion and anger. For example, in London,
when I did the box [trapped in a Plexiglas box suspended near the Tower Bridge,
without food，for over six weeks], the media couldn’t piece it together. So it wasn’t,
“ Here is an endurance guy doing an endurance feat.” It was, “ Here is a magician
duping us. But how is he duping us, he's just in the empty box and we сапЧ see
anything?"
GK: That’s interesting. In the Marina movie [Мап.ла 厂
a/77〇w’d- 77?e/А厂
f/sf /s
(2012)]，
there’s the scene with the gallerist— it’s not even the scene w ith you and her— and
the gallerist describes you, “ He’s an illusionist and everything he does is not real， everything
you do is real," when in fact you’re doing more real things in some ways than she is doing.
DB: One is not more or less.
GK: Or as real, youYe doing it for real and he made the assumption that it's not real.
DB: And that’s what I’m saying. Just based on the title “magician” you have to
assume that he has a method. It's not what you see, because people know there
is no such thing as a magician, so therefore it’s a man pretending to be a magician,
which is cheating.
I’ve been obsessed w ith fasting since I was eleven years old. I was
obsessed with the whole concept of a fast, and I used to fast at an early age. I knew
people could fast for a long period of time. I read about Bobby Sands, I read about
so many different fasts, studied Holocaust records of people who were depleted
of all nutrients, just water for forty-three days and full recovery.
And I still didn’t believe that people could really do that, because w e’re
told there’s no way you could go for a month w ithout food, w ith just water— it’s
impossible. Actually no, it's not, it happens all the time. But I spoke to friends and
I asked everybody, do you know anybody that tried? One guy had a girlfriend who
da§ 0 ШЗСМ.ЛО.ЈЛО 3 hjl
had done a forty-day fast. I spoke to her in detail and still didn’t believe her. She
didn't do it in front of anybody, she just did it for herself. But my brain is trained to
think there’s no way somebody could live for forty days w ithout food.
Of course you can go into organ failure, you can die— it happens— but
my brain w ouldn’t allow me to believe it. Even when I was doing the fast in London
in the box—
— which was as real as it gets, I wasn^ drinking regular mineral water. It
was pure filtered H20, with no added nutrition, minerals, zero. I had read that your
mouth starts to change in flavor after th irty days; you start to taste glycogen
because your body is breaking down internal organs to get what the brain needs. 1
7
Sure enough, on day thirty, I started to have sweet, pear-like tastes in my mouth.
So Г т drinking the water and it tastes like sugar water, and I was sure that the
people who backed the project didn’t want the stunt to end so they were spiking
my water with sugar so I would make it to the end because I was going into mild
organ failure. I would pour the water down to people below, to have strangers taste
it. But it was just water. Even me doing it on my own, I still didn4 believe it was
possible. How could I expect anybody else to believe it? Which is why the New
England Journal o f M edicine documenting it and publishing a piece on it and
things like that were valuable to me.
GK: What are your thoughts on risk? I ask that because you engage in major risk.
DB: Risk for me is everything. Risk and failure are my two favorite things, and
success is not.
GK: Because for most of your work you can't even see how successful you are.
DB: Success is the ultimate failure, because then you're done. Ifs the target
and the aim and the struggle: that’s the whole—th a t’s life. Success is ju s t the
bullshit. It,s the struggle that’s everything—the battle.
DD: I think you more than anyone have allowed people to put themselves in the work.
I think before you, magicians would decorate the magic. They'd put jokes, they'd do tricks
and wear a jacket. You were one of the first guys to go, here, look. Do you think that was
important, allowing people to engage with magic in a new way?
DB: I just always imagined if a magician really existed You know, you read
[M ikhail Bulgakov's] TT7e M asfe 厂алсУМафа 厂
/fa, you read [M ark Twain’s] 77?e
Mysterious Stranger — lots of little books about magical characters. . . I'd always
imagined the magician would never have a big presentation. If he could pickthings
up and just change something into a butterfly, he would just do it. So it was kind
of based on that. I noticed the effect was much stronger that way. That happened
early on. I used to try big things, and it felt ve ry... it didn't feel honest, so I started
thinking less is more.
DD: Yeah, definitely. There's a lot of metaphor in magic already. Like death, transfor­
mation. And a lot of your work is based on life and death.
DB: Yeah.
DD: Producing frogs and plague— all of the stuff that's inherently in there.
GK: That's why I asked about risk, because ifs a lot of the work: that significant com ­
ponent is invisible. Ifs such a driving, important component. It's the paradox of successful
magician’s work, the hard work is unseen by design.
1
DB: That’s the whole thing, all of the hard work is done in the dark.
asv
DD: Do you find yourself fighting for the credit sometimes?
a
 18 DB: Nah， because you don’t need the credit. You put in the work and it’s
self-satisfying.
DD: Right, but this is a conversation about holding breath and doing the performance
underwater， where it’s important that the audience knows that you’re doing it for real?
DB: No. Although to give them a good show, ifs important that they actually
are along with you, as opposed to, 4,oh, he's behind a plate of glass and he's fooling
all of us”一 it’s not a good feeling.
DD: So you do play to the archetype of being a magician? You understand the respon­
sibility that goes with the title?
DB: Yeah. Part of your job is to be a showman. Not more than that, either.
DD: Do you believe in magic? I’ll leave that an ambiguous question.
DB: The way I believe in magic is thinking about everything that is still
unknown. To me th a fs magical. But itfs not that magic obviously does exist, or you
could say that everything is magic.
GK: When you say youYe a showman, what do you mean by that?
DB: Bob Dylan used to say he’s just like a circus performer, basically—almost
vaudevillian. YouYe simply there to entertain.
GK: But the work that you do raises so many philosophical questions too. Does that
matter to you?
DB: The way I look at it is, I just like to do things.
GK: That’s awesome. The idea that whether it’s real or not, and whether there’s a
method or not, whether it is people freaking out watching you produce frogs from your
stomach as in your recent show, or swimming w ith sharks, or jum ping from ridiculous
heights, your work allows people to think about the possibilities of what youYe able to do.
DD: I've always viewed you as a guy who believed magic was real and then became a
magician and realized magic wasn't real but then said, fuckthat, I'm gonna make it real. You
pick an impossible thing to do: if you do it, then magic must be real. But the paradox is,
well, no, you can just do that. So what is impossible? YouYe resetting the line: that's the
question, right?
сШОНОб м л Л
DB: You think about something and wonder if it can be done, and then you
с
о spend a couple of years working on how to make it happen—
— it always keeps
{ . 9Ј 0
changing anyway. Like at first with the frogs, I couldn't just bring them up. The
concept was, what if I could just be sitting here, talking to you and hanging out,
and just have a frog appear in my mouth—that’s where it started.
3H1
DD: As one does. And then you just pursued that?
DB: Yeah. But then I started to realize I could have multiple frogs come out of 19
my mouth— so the trick, it’s still evolving.
DD: Does it at all come from a place of wondering what the trick will do to people, or
is it only internal?
DB: It starts with what would I like to see.
DD: Maybe this would be a good place to talk about the idea of social boundaries,
because you’ve had a way of traversing every race, creed, religion …
DB: I think all magic does that.
DD: No, other magicians don’t do it like you have.
DB: One of the scariest things IVe done was going to Temple, Georgia, to the
biggest neo-Nazi KKK rally of the year. Obviously Г т Jewish and dark skinned. I
didn't bring security, I just brought a bearded guy with a camera, who was also
clearly a Jew and dark skinned. And there were feds up on the hill because the
year before a dark-skinned guy had driven by and was shot to death. I went there
and walked up to the scariest-looking guys right away. My thinking was you
shouldn't judge me by what I look like, but I also shouldn't judge you by what you
look like.
These guys have SS tattoos and skinheads and swastika shirts—there
are confederate flags, men on horses_ and there’s thousands of them there. It’s
obvious I don't belong. So I rushed in and started doing magic forthem right away.
And you could see, they're all laughing before they had a chance to hate. Because
it’s too bizarre: I didn’t come in with security, I just walked in— obviously I have to
be out of my mind— so they have to give it a chance and watch. They're laughing
at card tricks, and it proved everything that I thought.
GK: What was it that you thought?
DB: Then I w ent inside the huge hall. The camera guy—the footage is so
grainy because he w ouldn't even come close, he stayed on the other side of the
street. I walked inside, and along the back wall there was a bunch of guys who
looked like Steve Forte, clean cut, nice looking. I was hanging out doing magic in
there. And these guys liked me_ I went over to the scariest ones. All of a sudden
a guy comes walking over with a gun dangling off his hip, and he's holding a bottle
upside down. And the guys I was with go, “You better leave quick, that’s KKK.” The
KKK guy was coming over saying, “What is this doing here?” And he was probably
just gonna split my head open right there. So I just ran out, ran into the pickup truck
and bailed.
DD: What was your idea, what were you trying to prove?
DB: Probably to show people that I shouldn’t judge them and they shouldn’t
H^IVl
judge me .丨
can’t judge them — I сапЧ know what made them that way, I don't know
their upbringing, I don't know what happened to their relatives— and they also CQ
alAva
shouldn't judge me. I th in kth a t was valuable on both sides.
 DD: But the spectacle allowed that to happen—the magic—
DB: Yeah, just walking in with a deck of cards. But it wasn't really that, because
if 丨
had walked in with a deck of cards with the wrong attitude, I’d be dead before
anything— or at least, a really bloody pulp. But it was the fact that I just did it, so it
was meant to be.
DD: Do you thinkthat could have been done with any other craft? Could you go juggling
or singing a song or playing the piano or painting, or do you thinkthere’s something inherent
in magic?
DB: I think it's magie, but done exactly that way.
DD: Which is just accessible?
DB: No. It’s like when I go in the open water with the great white sharks. I know
that people have this sense that we can’t rationally understand—
— so do animals.
They're very intuitive. They can feel an irregularity, so a great white w on't go after
a seal, even if hungry, if the seal is completely in charge. I’ve seen seals fuck with
the great whites constantly and it's because they look right at the shark.
The shark is conservative with his energy and doesn't want to struggle.
So if I come in there and I act like I know I belong there, it's too confusing. It's like
the psychology of driving in NewYorkCity. Ifyou p a rkyo u rca rin fro n to f a hydrant,
you’re going to get a ticket. But if you park it sticking out into the middle of the
street in front of a hydrant, you're not going to get a ticket because ifs so abstract.
The person writing tickets thinks, wait a second, this person must be right around
this car because it doesn't make sense.
DD: What would you like to see change about magic— aside from the work you're
doing?
DB: rd love to be able to send people to go see a good magic show.
DD: And why do you think it's so hard to see a good magic show?
DB: Because the bar is set so low—the examples that exist, they haven't had
any real competition. The idea is to create something great that people can see
and talk about, something that's not just a bunch of tricks and illusions but has
meaning at the end of the day. I thinkthere is a way to inspire and motivate people
to try to find something higher than just the easy fall back, just building a great
trick and fooling everybody. If somebody puts meaning behind it or a narrative—
d § H O б ш—
w hich is w hat you’re doing, w hat Ricky Jay does, although his is a history
lesson—that’s amazing to m a
о
о have to go through to talk about art and magie, whether w e’re talking to a curator or a bunch
ЛО
.ЈЛО
AB: Are you okay w ith not getting the credit you would get if you were in a different
field at your level?
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IIIIIIIIIIIIII
DB: I've never really done things for credit; that was never my thing. I was
neverthe guy hanging out by the teacher looking for credit. Г т used to just doing
the best that I can and being happy with the end results. A lot of people are moti­
vated by credit, which is fine, but for me personally, no.
AB: But then how did the evolution of that, doing it for yourself, end upon TV?
DB: I've been doing magic since I was a kid, for all sorts of different people.
When I was eighteen I was hired by Diane von Furstenberg— at the Carlisle or
some wealthy part of New York. Her son and his group of friends, they were all
screaming and running around and reacting when I performed, and I thought,
"Wow, that's a good reaction.H
Then I got locked up a few days later. I’m in central booking, which is the
worst jail. You get shifted in and out with people moving in and out of Rikers, so
it’s hardcore. These brothers were sitting in the middle playing spades and I
grabbed the cards, started doing magic because I knew I was going to get the shit
kicked out of me if I didn't do something. So I started doing magic with their cards
and suddenly everybody in the cell was going crazy, and then you have the cops
in the cell, also reacting. I thought, wow, that's pretty amazing. When you're in
this horrible jail, this non-logical place, there's a similarity between people when
you're reacting to something that doesn't make sense. So that became the con­
cept for the show [Beyond Magie].
AB: You are responsible for a huge, positive shift in magic, in many ways.
DB: And many that are terrible.
AB: What do you think the repercussions are, good and bad?
DB: Basically, I take a bunch of shit and throw it against the wall. M ost of it
drops, and the shit that sticks is stuff that w ill last some time. I think that you need
to keep focusing on trying to create and come up with things to inspire. Ifs tricky,
because mainstream audiences don't really know the difference, because memory
is short. They don’t know the difference between somebody w ho’s a complete
fraud. Butyoutry really hard to be honest and not cheat and try to make something
that you think has …
AB: Integrity?
DB： Yeah. You just have to work and focus and try to do different, interesting
things.
AB: We are interested in challenging the notion of what art is, and challenging the value
of different types of performative actions. It's interesting that when Chris Burden had himself
shot in the arm, it reverberated in the history of art in a very particular way. Knowing what we
I
of magicians, it's great to hear your thoughts. For us ifs about perception and shifting it.
It’s interesting, you’re doing the work for real but, with the title of magician ，
you’re
l
introducing the variable that it could not be real, when it's fucking scarier and riskier actually
to do it for real. And it wouldn't be impressive if you were doing it for real and you weren't a
magician.
 2
222 But the idea that you so clearly have spoken about—
— the complication, the potential TONY DELAP TD:
GK:
Tony DeLap
Glenn Kaino
2;

of it all being fake— it’s a suspension of belief; you’re doing it for real but you’re allowing the
idea that maybe therefs a trick involved, because it's so illogical that you would do some­ DD: Derek DelGaudio
thing so insane and then not take a bow for it. KD: Kathy DeLap
It’s a total reversal of the suspension of disbelief. You're removing certainty.

DB: “Suspension of Belief” is a good title. It’s also SOB.

[Laughter.]

Interview with Tony DeLap, DeLap residence, Laguna Beach, California, September 28, 2015

TD: I grew up in El Cerrito near Richmond, California, across the bay from San
Francisco. I went to public schools there. It was a blue-collar town. It was quiet
and comfortable until World War II started, and then it became a ship-building
town. Probably hundreds of thousands of people suddenly came into the area,
and the city quickly changed.
I only mentioned this because it sort of changed my life. It was a sleepy
community, and I knew only one magician, a banker friend of my father's. He had
the Tarbell Course in Magic, the original mimeographed set. I met him when I was
about fourteen， thirteen maybe. He said, “Well, I’ll tell you what I’ll do. I’ll give you
tw o weeks' copy at a time. When you finish the tw o weeks, bring it up and get
another two.” So I did that— it drove my parents crazy, because schoolwork went
out the window and I just wanted to get through the Tarbell Course of Magic. Mike
to make things, and so I would occasionally make a trick or a box or something.
That was my early teenage experience with magicians, but I didn’t really know any
young magicians__
So I played around w ith everything, with cards and other things. I did
some school shows, which maybe in a sense were okay.
Then I went to juniorcollege after high school and 1continued a bit with
magic, but I was getting more and more into art, which had always been an
interest.
I was going to night school in San Francisco to what then was a little art
school, the Academy of Art, which is now the Academy of Art University, a huge
mega-school. So I went there at night two days a week. The good thing to me about
San Francisco in those days—this was the 1950s—there were a lot of clubs. There
were some m agicians very often here and there. The Chinese Sky Room in
Chinatown often had a magician. Bimbo's often had a magician. I spent tim e wan­
dering around nightclubs [laughs].
I was also going to school down the Peninsula by Palo Alto to junior col­
lege, but Td come up. Sometimes a couple of friends would come up with me. The
hobby kept up.
But then I got more and more involved in art. I came down to Claremont
— Ho

in 1948 or 1949 to art school. I had a friend in the film business. One day, a dear
sn o

什iend of mine, Conrad Hall，who became a very wel 卜known cinematographer, said,
“hey, w e’re going to go to the Magic Castle.” I didn’t know much about that at all.
s o -i

We went there and that was a revelation to me. I think that was '63, right about

dvIAml
fc when the Castle opened.
So I spent a lot of time thinking about all that and getting interested [in
magic again]. I thought, well, I could use some real, decent experience. I'll apply
fo ra magician’s membership.

im m m n
 I had some slides of my work. I tookthe slides with me to the Magic Castle
one night and [Dai] Vernon was sleeping up in the attic. He and Jay Ose were living
up in the attic at that time. It was pretty much a small group of the older guys.
So they said, “Well，what could we do for you?” And I said, T m here to apply. I have
some slides." So this one fellow called Vernon over and he said, HHey, Dai, do you
want to look at the kid's stuff?" So I sat down and from that moment on I thought,
this is an okay guy.
He sat and he watched these slides of mine, and he said, “That’s very
nice, Tony. It’s nice to see this work of yours.” He called somebody over，
saying,
"Let?s take this guy in as a member. It'd bring a little class to this place." [Laughs.]
My work was pretty far out for Dai at that time, but that’s how we started. That’s
how we became friends.
And so I kind of snuck in the back door as a magician member. But IVe
been a member ever since. In those early years, I would go when I was still at UCI
[University of California, Irvine], Td be uptown a lot. Td bring a faculty member or
two or I’d see Conrad and w e’d go fool around or do things. I would always go and
see Vernon and w e’d sit and talk. I was interested in his early art trading. We just
became good friends.
But the sad part for me is that I never was really close enough [to the city],
and I was too involved in my own work and everything. I never really took lessons
from him, which I wish I had done. I talked with him a lot, and I did an interview.
Did you ever see the interview?
GK: Yes! That was one of our most exciting discoveries. That an artist conducted one
of the most important magic interviews of all time.
TD: I made the film and we shot all that material, I had it around for a number
of years and never did a thing w ith it. Then one evening I was at the Castle and
there was a bunch of Vernon^ magician friends and we were talking. Dai turned
to me and saidT“ Hey，
Tony， what did we ever do with all that film we shot?” 丨
said ，
“ I still have it. I keep thinking we ought to try to do something with it.”
Maybe it was Kathy [DeLap] who said it was my birthday. Vernon replied,
"Okay. I just gave you a birthday present. Take all that tape and do whatever you
want to with it."
So th a t’s how that [happened]—through a fellow at [California State
University] Long Beach’s video department J o e Leonardo.
But it was shot by Jay McCafferty, who was an art student at Irvine. He
had just recently been involved with the handheld camera. This is the early '60s.
It was a nice period of time.
GK: That's a great story.
TD: But a lot of the guys who were around there 一 God, they're pretty much
cmo§ 8аоол.л?1 д
all gone now—were in and out.
GK: The magicians, you mean?
TD: Dai's great young friend, who he traveled with for a period of time, who
is now head of statistics at Stanford ...
о3H1
DD: Persi [Diaconis].
TD: Persi. He was around. I knew him a bit, but not real well. But as far as I
know he’s—
DD: The trinity of Vernon’s disciples were Persi and Ricky Jay and Steve Freeman.
TD: Yeah.
DD: Those were the three. Then he had Bruce Cervon and [Larry] Jennings.
TD: I can4 really say I know Ricky Jay. IVe met him several times. That was a
bit later, but he was, according to Dai, always following him around and driving
him crazy.
[Laughter.]
DD: How were your experiences with him in general?
TD: Well, I guess he was . . . he was just very persistent. I met Ricky I think
about three times, but I never spent any time with him. I just remember talking to
Dai about him in earlier years. So many of the rest of the gang I would meet at the
council, because in those early years they were around. That was always exciting
for me.
And Marc Pally...
GK: Marc is a friend of mine. He actually showed at Rosamund Felsen too as a painter.
TD: Yes. I remember he had a show—the last show of his I saw at Rosamund
was at the same tim e I had a show shortly before Patty Faure died.
GK: But you showed at Patty’s before she passed away.
TD: I showed—well, I started with Nick Wilder, which is another long story,
because I knew Nick when he was still a law student at Stanford. I was in San
Francisco, because I had a number of studios there. About the time Kathy and I
first knew one another, Nick was at Stanford in law school, but he was running an
art gallery for Dr. [William] Fielder. Dr. Fielder was, I believe, head of surgery for
Stanford White Hospital and he was interested in art. Occasionally, Nick would
come by my place or Dr. Fielder would come by and say hello.
A funny side story is that I had Bruce Nauman—a funny, spindly thing 一
hanging on my little funky place in San Francisco. One day Nick came by and he
wanted to use the bathroom, so he went upstairs and he was there for a while.
When he came back down he said, “That’s the most terrible, awful piece of art I’ve
ever seen in my whole goddamn life.” I laughed and said, “Well，
he’s a student of
mine at UC Davis.”
Then about tw o weeks later, Nick came by and he said, “You know that
thing that you have hanging upstairs? Is it still there?” I said, “Yeah.” He said， “Could
I go see it again?” So he went up and he was there for a while and he came back
CIV13QAN01
down. Then he said, "Can I meet that guy? That thing is off the wall." I think it was
the following Thursday, Nick went up to Davis w ith me and he met Bruce. And
that's how Bruce got started, because it was just shortly after that that Nick opened
his gallery in Los Angeles.
 Then my own story is that I got involved, because I was committed to Felix TD: N 〇， I ve never known another artist w ho’s done magic. It’s interesting. 227
Landau. And when Felix closed, I went to N ick's. . . Nick called me one day and They enjoy watching magic. But I think that one heavily involved discipline takes
said, “ I’ve always thought that you probably were the smartest guy I’ve ever known a good part of one’s time. So 丨
always envied the purists—
but don’t you think it’s tim e to come over here now.” I said, “Yeah, I do.” So that’s Have you met Penn and Teller? Do you know them at all?
how we got together.
And Patty Faure worked for Nick. She ran the gallery in those years, so I DD: Yeah, I know them well. They’re both pleasant. Teller is really sweet. Penn is very loud.
had known her forever. Patty was a good head.
GK: [Laughs.]
GK: So nice. She was a good spirit.
TD: Teller is quite a good magician ，
isn’t he?
TD: For a long time she had been a partner with Betty Asher.
DD: Very, very good. He's a smart magician. I think the three best tricks being per­
GK: Yeah. formed in magic are from him on that stage. Shadows, which you've seen, I'm sure.
The intersections of art and magic, do you think there are some inherent intersec­
TD: And Betty and Mike Asher were students of mine at UCI. Everybody was tions of the two?
a student of mine.
TD: Intersections in what way?
[Laughter.]
GK: Like in your work, there are formal conversations sometimes between cards and
TD: But it seemed like that. Jim Turrell was a student. illusions. One thing we are interested in is a dialogue about the cross-reference of aesthet­
ics. And the only thing that weVe seen conversations about is primarily around the idea of
GK: Chris Burden was a student of yours at Irvine, right? illusion. But we're also interested in the notion of community and ideas and where ideas
come from. So, if early on you were a student of Tarbell's and also created tricks and then
TD: Yeah. I said to Chris one day, because it was before he had himself shot you ended up also creating artwork, there's a fluidity there to be able to think about magic
in the arm. He spent I think six days in a little locker in my class— and—

GK: I had that locker [laughs]. That was my locker when I was at UCI. TD: Yeah. I think I know what you* re saying. I find that in my years, there's more
acceptability, and more possibility, for the conversation about magic as we under­
TD: I said, "Chris, I've been thinking about your work. I think that the closest stand it and appreciate it and know about it than earlier years.
person I can think of that does what you do is Harry Houdini” [/aug/7S]， which is
really true. GK: Now it’s easier?

GK: When did that conversation happen? Back when Chris was in grad school?
TD: That was 7 0 ,7 2 maybe, something like that. It was an interesting period.
One reason we got a good number [of students] is because these artists thought GK:
they wanted to g o to art school, but they didn't want to g o to any of the known art
schools. So they took a shot at what was going on here.
GK: That’s very interesting. You said in the beginning of the conversation that you’ve
known a few artists who are interested in magic, but not that many. Who are the ones that DD:
come to mind?
TD: Well, friends like Craig Kauffman and maybe John McCracken, because
he had been a student of mine up north. But Craig and pretty much the Ferus
Group came around and taught here.
TD: I think it is, because there's a closeness to, as you say, illusion and aspects
o f ... I don’t think there are the strong differences that there used to be.
Would you have considered Dai Vernon an artist?
TD: Dai Vernon was an artist. He started as an artist, but I think he was an
artist at what he did as a magician.
Right.
TD: In other words, if one's playing the professional involvement of art galler­
ies and museums and so on, I think that you can probably take anything and make
art out of it. I don’t think that magic is art necessarily， because it’s magic to make
it more interesting or better [laughs] or something of this sort. I don't know if IVe
explained myself.

dvIANOL
GK: Were those guys were interested in magic too?
GK: That makes sense.
 TD: But I think that magic can certainly make for interesting art and maybe TD: Yeah, he brought Dai down to see that performance. We did it here at the
has a head start with the fact that it’s about illusion. Orange County Art Museum when there was just the one building. I hired a guy
with a crane and I hired a girl who was Farrah Fawcett's stunt double to come down
and be the floating lady. We rehearsed it on a spiral staircase during the day and
that worked fine. And then, at night, it was dark and we had a lot of people.
GK: It’s interesting to hear you talk about the community part, because you’ve spoken As I say, I asked Conrad to come down and take pictures. Conrad had
a lot about the magicians at the Castle coming to see your shows. And then you talk about picked Vernon up at the Castle and they came down. Everybody was sitting outside
your students and the artists that you hung out with. But we really haven’t spoken about there and it was dark. And the crane started making a hell of a noise. The lady got—
them intermingling as much.
KD: And she’s draped.
TD: Yeah.
TD: Yeah. We had a high intensity light on her. And when she got out parallel
GK: Let me ask another question. Michael Asher, who is known for being a heavy to the water up there, it was great. It just looked like she was floating along. Then
conceptualist, or artists of his who were students of yours, they knew that you were a she moved slowly north and the light was killed and she dropped down. I had some
magician— guys who rescued her there when she landed, but it was kind of terrific.
So, later one night ,丨
was at the Castle and Vernon was holding court with
TD: Oh, yes. some of his guys and all. He said, "Oh, I went down and saw Tony do this levitation."
And he said, "You know, it was the largest, longest levitation th afs ever been done
GK: So when you were talking, giving crits, and helping Michael develop his conceptual in the w orld/' [Laughs.]
practice, how much did—
DD: It might still be true.
TD: Did that enter in at all?
TD: And one of the magicians says，
“Well, God almighty, how did he do that?”
GK: Yeah. And Vernon said, "I haven4 the slightest idea." [Laughter.] I could hear him tell
these guys, “ I haven’t the slightest idea how he did that.” Well, it was hysterical,
TD: Yeah. Well, most of that gang knew I was an amateur magician and I think because the truck is there with this noise—rah, rah, rah— right here.
they were okay about that. To try to answer your question, I'm not sure I know. I
think what comes up is you have a conversation and somebody will say, Hwell, you GK: [Laughs]
know what I’m talking about, you’re a magician.” You know what I mean?
TD: Well, it was a great evening and we did have a fun time. I just bored the
GK: Exactly. What does that mean? hell out of Connie with all my activities. I had him come down to the studio to film
in slow motion for some work I was doing. He spent about three hours doing it for
TD: I hear that all the time. me. I still have the film. But at the end of the day, he said, 'That was the most abso­
lutely boring afternoon I ever spent." [Laughter.] But it was sort of my whole
GK: What does that mean? goddamn life.

TD: Well, you ought to know about what I’m talking about, you’re a magician. DD: Are you surprised there aren't more artists interested in magic? We've scoured
And, God, it drives you fucking crazy. the earth for artists who are—

[Laughter.] TD: Yeah. I think so. But as I hinted at a bit earlier, I think both disciplines are
so totally demanding.
GK: Yeah. What does that mean, Tony? [Laughs.]
GK: That's a really good point.
сшоно а

TD: Then you got the floating lady—

TD: How many hours a day do you work with cards?
а
з DD: Florine, Child of the Air?
DD: Zero hours. But for years, 24/7.
оо -ло-ЈЛО3Hi

d
&н TD: Anyway, that image— boy, it’s a great story, because I had Conrad go by

v
and pick Vernon up and bring him down for that performance out of doors. TD: Yeah [laughs]. It's while you're doing that Г т in the studio.

I
l
DD: Conrad Hall drove Dai Vernon to the performance?
 DD: Yeah. That s a good point. DD: No one talked about it. It was the first thing we'd done at that level that no one 31

TD: So, with me, it was just the opposite. I hate the word "hobby." But, at the
same time, I'd come in from the studio and sit down and work on things and so on,
but the discipline— it was different.
GK: But in certain circumstances, though, you made the magic your art.
talked about. Maybe it’s because we kind of took the wind out of their sails when it came
to the jokes, ?cause we either hit on them first or pointed at it or something, but if they don't
have that, they don’t really have anything to talk about.
TD: I have to tell you, though, who is an exception in this business with a great
name and that’s Barbara Rose, the critic in New York.

TD: Yeah, I did. It’s true. But so much of that was decision making. It wasn’t KD: Barbara wrote Tony’s book and did the essay.
taking eight hours a day or—you know what I mean?
TD: And we saw her a bit, because we were in Buffalo recently__ I did a gig
GK: Yes. with her for a video thing that was hosted by one of the museum fellows at the
Albright-Knox museum.
DD: So there’s a distinction for you with the craft and the technical? But I do have to tell this story about the very early years, when Barbara
Rose came out here to do what was called the Duchamp Festival, which was sort
TD: But I’ve heard so many stories about, for example, card magicians: they of her idea, I think. She took students and she took faculty and she did the Duchamp
practice eight or ten hours a day or sometimes more. Vernon told me once that Festival, which was a big deal in those years. At that time, she was married to
there was a guy called Fluky Johnny, John Scarne. Vernon said that he was the Frank Stella. Frank wasn’t involved in the school, because he w ouldn’t pass the
poorest card person he ever knew. loyalty oath.

DD: Terrible. KD: He wouldn’t sign it.

TD: And hesaid they used to give him money to get home on the streetcar or TD: I don't blame him, but they've done away with that. But, anyway, Barbara
something. came to the school.
That's when I— not as a joke, but just as something so very lighthearted—
DD: Yeah. levitated this young lady in one of the rooms at the school. And it kind of scared
me, because people thought I really had levitated this person.
TD: They called him FlukyJohnny. The story goes he would just practice and And, anyway, Barbara liked the whole magic bit. While she was here, I
practice and practice until he was raw. brought Dai Vernon down to the graduate students for him to entertain. He just
did some standard things. But Barbara was sitting as close to Vernon as we are
DD: Yeah. He still needed more. now and she never got over it. She never really got over watching somebody work
like he did here with his standard cups and balls and cards and so on. And a time
later, Barbara was up with her son, and we went to the Magic Castle.
Maybe within this last year, she brought up my magic. She said, "When
DD: Well, weVe done a lot of different things separately and weVe done a lot of things we went to the Magic Castle with my youngest son, who was such a pain in the
together. And we find that when we were doing work together we finally got to a place where ass,” because he was, I guess, just a young—
people stop saying jokes as much as they just stop saying anything at all.
KD: That age.
GK: [Laughs.]
TD: Yeah, at that age. She said, "It changed him." She writes a good bit about
DD: One of the shows wedid, which we were most proud of, was at The Kitchen in New magic in reference to my interests and so on. So it made a noticeable impact upon
York and it was great. We were so proud of it. It was so new. Nothing like it anywhere. her. And as she is one of the leading contemporary critics in the country, I have to
acknowledge the fact that th a fs something, you know? When she was last out,
cmoHosnos-do-Lmo 3Hi

GK: Packed house, artists, magicians. she and I had a conversation for the book. The magic always came up. So I don't
know if that’s an exception or what, but—
DD: Yeah, artists and magicians, everyone there loved it. Everyone said they loved it.
No one wrote about it. GK: I think that we find ourselves living in a world of exceptions.

dvIAml
TD: Yeah. KD: Did Alex[is Smith] evertell you about the performance she and Tony did?
It was beautiful. I don4 know if we have a write-up about it anywhere. When Alex
was still at UCI, I think, and a friend of Tony's was running the gallery at Caltech—

11 m i n i i m
 2
2
3: GK: No, she hasn’t told me about that. AB: A.Bandit 3
;
MARINA ABRAMOVIC MA: Marina Abramovic
KD: And Michael Smith. Tony and Alex put together this evening. It was sup­
posed to be a magic evening. And they had this room — well, it was quite usual. It
was a long table with beautiful glass goblets. I сапЧ remember what else there
was. And there was limited seating to see this thing. People had to sign up for it.
And they had a magician inside the room?

TD: Yeah, it was sort of cool. We had a room. I think this was actually more her
idea than mine, but we had a room where the people could peek in. We invited some
of the artists to sit down with a magician, who was working at a table. People could Email exchange with Marina Abramovid, July 2016
come in and they’d sort of peek through and see this going on， but they couldn't go in.
AB: What is your familiarity with magie performance? Do you like magic? When you
GK: That’s cool，
man. That’s awesome. watch magic do you try and guess how the “tricks” are being done?

KD: Yeah, it was. And people were panicked they couldn’t get in there. They MA: Since my early childhood, I have loved and believed in magic. I trust it
heard that everybody wanted these tickets to go. And you know how the group is. completely, and I never want to know how it is done. I always want to believe that
it is real. When witnessing a magic performance you have to go into that world and
TD: Oh, yeah, it was a closed shop. live there fo ra while.

KD: They couldn’t get on the list. We’d get people phoning us: "I understand
this is going on. Why haven’t I been invited?” And ，“well, there’s no more seats.”
“What do you mean there’s no more seats for me?”
TD: It surprised the hell out of me.
DD: Who was in the room?
TD: I forget who the magician was. We put Bob Irwin in there, and we put a
couple other art people. There were probably six people at the table. And there
was a light on so the people could walk through this door and see this going on.
Then there was this big room where all the peasants came [laughs].
GK: What was the performance called?
TD: I think it was called "An Evening with Magic." I got a number of the guys
from the Castle. I got Earl [Nelson] to come down as kind of the kingpin. Earl sat
in a tall chair and opened a brand new deck and everybody was around and
watching all this. Earl did some wonderful things. Anyway, it was really quite a
lovely evening.
And then after all of that, Earl and maybe eight or ten of us all went up to
Melinda [Wortz]’s house in Pasadena and we had dinner. So it was a great evening.
cmoHo
AB: Something that is a major concern and factor for magicians is the notion of their
work being considered service entertainment. Over the course of your career, whether
performing in a museum to one or thousands of people, how have you dealt with the notion
of service entertainment? What makes your performances different from more commercial,
theatrical productions, when MoMA [the Museum of Modern Art, New York] has a bigger
marketing budget than small off-Broadway houses?
MA: We have to be clear here. We are talking about different categories. A
magic performance is different from performance art. It is also different from the­
ater or Broadway performances. Each of these categories has a specific purpose.
I can’tta lka b o u tth e aspects of yourtrade, I can only speakabout my own category
and how I distinguish it from entertainment. First, in my work, everything is real.
There is no illusion, no repetition, and no rehearsals. Most of the time, particularly
in my own work, it is of long duration, and because of that element of time, the
work becomes life itself.
AB: Your work very importantly also implicates the audience and their motivation and
context to raise critical questions about the social contract, which is also one of the con­
cerns of magicians like RickyJay. D oyouthinkabouttheaudiencew hen creating your work?
Do you feel sometimes when creating a piece that you are crafting with the emotion and
expectations of your viewers?
MA: For me the audience is essential. I could never imagine a performance

GK: So these six or eight people were in the room and then everyone else slipped without an audience because the audience completes the work. It is all about the
through a little peephole? transfer of energy. When I create a work I always have the audience in mind, but I

oIAOWVHavvivs
с
о don't think about the expectations or reactions of the viewer. I only think about
бол-ЛО.ЈЛО 3HJL

TD: Yeah [laughs]. how I can deliver a message as best as possible. I am concerned with how to give
100% of myself to the audience, and then it is up to them how they receive this.
GK: Can we restage that? My concern is with the delivery only.

TD: Well, of course. Do anything you want.

AB: Presence is a key concern in your work, and is required of most artwork in order
for the impact of the artist’s vision to be communicated. We also believe that presence is a
requirement of magic, and that art and magic might be two of the last cultural concerns
that might motivate human action. Do you agree and, if so, how do you think that the com­
modity of presence can be earned in a world becoming increasingly mediated?
MA: I definitely see the connection between magic performance and perfor­
mance art. In both cases, being here and now is essential. And because the world
we live in right now is so distracted, we need this kind of work more than ever
before. The public more and more needs not to look at something but to be part
of something.
AB: It strikes us that the transactional mediation of social platforms as a proxy to expe­
riencing performance art changes the relationship of the work to the viewer, but it is also
important to consider given the nature of marketing and communication in this age. How
can art cut through all of this and connect to people w ithout diminishing its intent?
AB: You have invested heavily in communication and outreach and really have pro- 235
vided an unprecedented and transformative amount of effort into the cause of teaching
performance art and encouraging m ultidisciplinary conversations. What else can and
should be done by performers in all fields that might further the conversation that you have
provoked, so that we can make sure that both the pleasurable but also the critical dialogue
might be pushed further?
MA: I am very often thinking about the future of performance art. Not only
performance art, but also new forms of art that will be invented in the future. From
my own experience, I have found long, durational forms of art to be the most trans­
formative of all. To me, this applies to any medium of art that is longer than six
hours. This can apply to performance, theater, dance, film, or music. These forms
of art have the potential to be transformative experiences precisely due to the
amount of tim e required by the spectator. Longer works require preparation and
investment from the audience. This commitment is essential because it increases
your availability to experience the work.

MA: Social media has good sides and bad sides. The good is that it can create
a dialogue within a very large audience regardless of a member's individual space,
time, or location. This is an incredibly powerful and useful tool, the potentials of
which we are still discovering as we go along. Still, you can never transmit the kind
of experience in this context that you can achieve in real life. Being in the here and
now and participating in the work physically gives you something on a whole other
level, which I doubt technology could ever match. But we cannot change the time
we live in. We have to adapt to this moment in the world, while at same time not
compromising too much and losing our soul.

AB: Inyourfilm [Маг/ла/А^厂

avow ’d ， (2012)]，there was an exchange
with you and David Blaine, wherein subsequently your gallerist suggested that everything
you do is real and what David does is not, that what David does is trickery in service of the
idea of illusion. In fact, David does many of his performance gestures for real but chooses
to apply the context of magic and artifice to them in order to raise questions about their
viability and authenticity. On the opposite end of that, the most poetic gestures from artists
as diverse as Juan Munoz to Doris Salcedo utilize elaborate illusions to simulate natural
phenomenon, but we considerthose artworks. Do you feel thatthe possibility of “not being
real" diminishes one's work, and do you feel that it is a requirement of any art for it to be
done “for real”
？

MA: I don’t th in k that reality is a requirem ent of art. There are as many
approaches to this question as there are artists. I can only speak of my own
approach, which necessitates reality. I also would like to talk about my admiration
for David Blaine. I know that so many of his actions are extremely real, and so many
times he puts his life in danger. Intentionally, he would like the public to see this
as a magic act. So many times the public is blind to the fact that certain things in
his work are real. The reason for that is that David does things in the context of

PIAOIWHSVVNIHVS
magic. Hiding the pain and danger as a part of the illusion can be extremely diffi­
cult. I have never understood how he can do this. In my own work it is important
to show this aspect of the experience and to show the public how vulnerable and
fragile you are. They can connect with you in that way, showing them that you are
not some kind of super hero.
SHOWS
SECRETS KEEPING After an eighteen-month hiatus from making studio work, Kaino opened his first exhibition at LAXArt, Secrets
Keeping Secrets. The show presented a sculptural record of Kaino's journey into the world of magic and
SECRETS was centered around the activity of the artwork Safe, particularly the process and output of his investigation
Glenn Kaino. LAXArt, Los Angeles, 2010 into secrecy.
The exhibition catalogue was never published, so here is the introduction to the book about secrets
that will now forever remain a secret.
A n d anyway， the secret is n ot as im portant as the
paths that led me to i t Each person has to walk those
paths himself.
—JORGE LUIS BORGES, “The Ethnographer”
The work engaged in this book is concerned with
redefining the role of art and the artist in a moment of
crisis. The landscape looks like this: two decades of
culture wars have left artists divided among each
other and w ithin themselves. A hyper-professional­
ized creative class thrives on the corporate art world
and the quantifiable systems of validation that provide
institution-level investment security. Late generation
would-be conceptual art packagers have stripped all
the magic and play from art and left it beaten and
resigned. Basically, the shit is stagnant because it's
all about the money. I overheard a dealer selling an
edition at an artfairand he sounded like a pimp hock­
ing a pair of used panties from one of the best girls.
For years, a central part of my art practice has
been an in-depth and undercover engagement with
diverse fields of study. Hiding in plain sight within dif­
ferent cu ltural systems, I have been a part of
corporations, collectives, gangs, bands, and families
as a leader, a lieutenant, or an enthusiastic support­
ing collaborator. I have used these investigations to
bring practical skills, radical perspectives, and novel
approaches to bear on my work 一 applying non-tradi-
tional vocabularies to art-making in orderto generate
new models for production.
Though I have had steady progress since
becoming an artist, evolving through varied experi­
ences and studies, my p ra ctice has rece ntly
undergone a major evolution. In order to make art­
work, I had been primarily utilizing a strategy called
"kitbashing,11which is a model-maker's term for build­
ing unique things out of the disparate parts of
unrelated model kits. Starting with the idea of kitbash­
ing as a conceptual challenge, I engineered both
objects and ephemera from fragments of other things,
forging new relationships between diverse materials
and ideas to uncover hidden truths and meanings—
illusions which suggest new possibilities.
But as the art market accelerated, wielding
increasing power over the assignment of cultural
value, I began to be dispirited with the role of art in
the w iderw orld and the opportunities in th e a rt world
for my practice. The market value and meaning of a
given work seemed to be running away from each
other, and I needed to find a new way to engage with
art-making for its own sake, as a catalyst for meaning
and humanity. And so I became a magician. This book
records and re-encodes the serious training I under­
took in the field of magic in orderto reclaim my belief
in the occupation that I hold dear. It is a guide to a very
particular and peculiar process of making moments
and meaning, encrypted within stories and illustra­
tions that chronicle the past tw o years of my art
practice.
In learning magic, I gained the ability to simul­
taneously believe and disbelieve in w hat I do. I
gained access to a form of creation that is simultane­
ously highly technical and incredibly mysterious.
Historically, magic has been used as a means of rec­
onciling seemingly irreconcilable gaps 一for example,
between science and religion. I think magic is the key
link between art and everyday life. In magic, secrets
are not simply withheld information; they are truths
that exist only within the imagination. Easily manipu­
lated, they have generative powers, especially in the
realm of performance. Becoming a magician has
unlocked an entirely new conceptual and discursive
m obility for me and has presented a new opportunity
for creative growth.
This publication documents two art projects
that took place simultaneously during my investiga­
tions into magic and training as a magician. Both
projects are about secrets, and both were created for
s i s
LAXArt in Los Angeles. The first, Safe, involves the
gathering, protecting, and storing of secrets from a
d iv e rs e a n d in te re s tin g g ro u p o f p e o p le . T h e y w e re figs. 1— 4 (pp. 242—245) An early exercise in seeing and believing. Old art-magazine ads were transformed into magic ads through the
a s k ed to c o n trib u te via th e fo llo w in g p ro cess: addition or redaction of language. Jeffrey Deitch later told Kaino that the Vanessa Beecroft ad (p. 242) was
one of the first he ever placed for Deitch Projects, his gallery in New York.
1. Take the special "secret" paper, print your
name at the top, and write a short description or
"title" of your secret, but not the actual secret
itself.

2. Record your actual secret onto a m icro­

cassette tape.

3. Return the tape to be placed in the safe.

I explained to the co ntribu to rs how th e ir

secrets would appear in this book: the slips of paper
each had contributed would be scanned and repro­
duced so that their names would appear as they had
been written, but th e irtitle s would be obscured by an
artw ork or a printed bar. Readers of this book w ill

聖
know the owners of the secrets, but w ill not be able

OIO OIO ^ ^ O
to see what sorts of secrets were contributed. That

闘
knowledge is left to the imagination. Having never
CNI
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don’t have access CQ'

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to their secrets, though I do have some clues from

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having seen the titles.

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The second project, Vanish, is a journey into
the world of magic and an inventory of the new tools
-^

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and methods discovered along the way.

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I have used the evidence of my effort in Vanish ill

.
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to obscure and cover up the secrets given to me as HJ
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part of Safe. What you are holding in your hands is

o
actually two books occupying the same set of pages. t.
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One is the secret life of your peers kept safe and cov­
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ered up by the text of an incriminating narrative about

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how one might unravel and decode a stagnant and a.

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stale relationship to find within it a magical world.
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A lth o u g h fo r m any p eop le D avid
Hammons seems to have emerged from
nowhere in the past two or three years to
suddenly enter the front ranks o f inter­
national sculptors, such a perception is
actually mired in the unfortunate s ocio­
political dynamic that tends to influence
how American culture views itself. Were
we to let ourselves be dominated by its
influence, it w ou ld p robably be m ore
accurate to write the following: t4Despite
the o f^ h e A m erican art
sl
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establishment to deny the existence o f an
artist like D avid H am m ons within its
midst, his woric has at last been exposed to
a general and highly appreciative au­
dience/* In fact, the truth lies somewhere
in betw een . H a m m on s’ s art w ou ld
probably have become well-known much
earlier on. Instead, he chose to focus his
artistic activity on the experience o f being
a fully engaged African-American male at
the end o f the twentieth century, with all
the contradictions that this; entails.乜
« 山 is
fit
OVER THE HEADS OF ORDINARY VIEWERS,
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4 245
way, Hammons more or less forced the art
world to come after him, ensuring that his
work would be taken on its own terms,
and prompting a general re-examination o f
the issues o f cultural identity in American
art — the repercussions from which will
still be felt for many years to come.
Born in 1943 in the m edium -sized,
m idwest town o f S pringfield, Illin ois,
Hammons’s formative experiences were
o f the slow cultural ferment that would
constitute the United States in the fifties,
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246 SJL3H03S ONIdHa^ S13H03S
 A.Bandit was invited to perform at SoHo House in
248
EXPERIMENTS FROM THE West Hollywood; it was th eirfirst commission. Offered
SPACE BETWEEN a slot in only three months' time, the duo felt like the
A.Bandit. SoHo House, West Hollywood, 2010 short turnaround would force them to get th eir act
together, to start moving from sitting in the studio
thinking about opportunities to make work to just
getting down to working.
The show itselfwas a bit of a mash-up between
an a rtis t’s talk, a magic show, and a music video.
The show never settled on a specific format. Rather
it flu id ly weaved through genres, taking its form
from a conceptual direction rather than a forcing
methodology.
The show began with a series of stories about
theoretical collisions that were generated during the
collaborative explorations of the worlds of magic and
art that the two discovered, but it quickly transformed
into a journey through a rich theoretical playground
that DelGaudio and Kaino unlocked together as they
moved away from the trad ition s of each other's
respective fields in search of a new, more meaningful
terrain to occupy.
It was during this performance and the writing
of this show that DelGaudio and Kaino discovered the
term “Alexander’s band/’ which led to the invention of
the name A.Bandit.
49
asked, What is this? Kaino explained its significance
A c t 1: Revealing Secrets and asked, "Why do you ask?" DelGaudio responded,
“ Because I know the man who owns that mirror,” to
Prior to the show, Kaino and DelGaudio each wrote which Kaino replied, "What the fuck are you talking
down a dozen secrets, facts so personal they hadn’t about?”
shared them with one another. On stage, they cere­
moniously exchange their secrets, then proceed to
take turns reading them aloud, revealing the facts to
themselves as well as the 150 members of the audi­ A c t 4: Invisible Egg
ence. This piece sets the tone for the trust the two had
in each other from the very beginning. In an act of collective hallucination, the two share a
story about an invisible egg that gets “passed” 什om
the hands of one to the other. DelGaudio proceeds to
crack the same egg onto a pan sitting on stage and, in
A ct 2: S tudio V isits front of the audience, produces real scrambled eggs.
The two performers quickly exchange a short studio-
visit talk describing the nature of their past work and
their meeting, and the synergy that led to the creation
of Kaino^ piece The Grand Finale (see pp. 142-143).
This talk goes from past to future as they introduce
the idea of theoretical limits and the flattening of the
imagination space, as told through a narrative explo­
ration of video games and symbolic play. The gist is
that in the past, games were primarily made with sym­
bols, but what is now lauded as advanced 'Creative'1
w ith high-end three-dim ensional graphics is more
explicit and literal, leaving less to the imagination.

A ct 3: W hen W orlds C ollide

DelGaudio and Kaino would exchange books to read.

One day, Kaino pulled a book on Marcel Duchamp off
the shelf and casually began flipping through it, sug­
gesting his partner take it home to read. As Kaino
continued flipping through the pages and talking about
Duchamp, DelGaudio shouted, “Wait. Go back!” Kaino
A c t 5: Tyranny of Vision
Kaino performs a version of the Chinese Linking Rings
trick as DelGaudio describes the history of the piece

S M i
flipped back a page. It was a picture of Duchamp sitting and explains it as being a work about perception.
at a table with four versions of himself. DelGaudio Kaino does the entire routine in normal lighting and
 o
2
5
then a second tim e under a strobe light. When the
lights are then again turned on, it is revealed that
Kaino was gesticulating w ildly but in perfect rhythm
to the strobe, which had been hiding his movements
in the dark.
DelGaudio then takes the concept further by
levitating a basketball under the strobe by tapping it
up during the dark moments.
Katno displays two large solid rings of
steel. He h i t s the rtrigs together, c a u s -
ing metal to pass through m e t a l , linking
the two s o l i d rings. He s p i n s one r\ng
on the other, clearly displaying them as
linked together. He then gently rocks
the rings back and forth until they melt
apart • Ta da!
DELGAUDIO
By u sing the space between the l i g h t ,
p e r h a p s then, the t r i c k y o u t h o u g h t y o u
w e r e s e e i n g is n o t w h a t y o u a r e s e e i n g .
House l i g h t s up to reveal Ka~ino frantic-
cally moving.
between them. Is this really happening? 251
Is t h i s the same illusion， or just an
illusion?
Blackout.
A ct 6: C o n c lu s io n s /L o c k s
The work concludes with a political and charged nar­
rative about co nflict and empathy. It explains the
nature of how we as a society frame storytelling to
hide inconvenient facts and how learning to see dif­
ferently is a vital skill that we w ill need if we are to
progress in our time.

Lights up on DelGaudio. He has a basket­ House lights down (with strobe still on)
ball under his arm. andKaino appears to be hoZdingperfectly
s till•
DELGAUDIO
T h e C h i n e s e L i n k i n g R i n g s . S o m e s a y i t ;s House lights up t o reveal agatn Kaino
one of the oldest tricks i n m a g i c . If frantically moving.
forced to descr i b e how this illusion
w o r k s , s o m e m i g h t s a y i t rs s l e i g h t o f Blackout•
h a n d . But really, it is a n i l l u s i o n o f
depth, it “w o r k s ” b e c a u s e o f l i ght. So Loud rap music blares over the PA, as if
we a s k e d o u r s e l v e s ； w h a t h a p p e n s if you at a basketball game. On a microphone,
remove some of that light? Could you we hear Katno.
experience more b y seeing less?
KAINO
Lights go out. A strobe light comes on. Ladies and g e n t l e m e n ； Jeff Koons^s famous
Floating Ball illusion!
Kaino performs the same sequence as
before with the r i n g s . (It Ts not very The strobe light comes on. DelGaudio
interesting. In fact ， it ^s less inter­ dribbles the basketball a few t i m e s . He
esting than seeing it i n full light.) then begtns to pass it from hand to hand.
N 3 3 M 1 3 S s o vds

His hands begtri to move further and fur­

The strobe turns off and l i g h t s come on ther apartf the ball spinntng andgyrating
DelGaudio.

DELGAUDIO
Nope! T he e x p e r i m e n t w as a f a i l u r e • But
WOHd

t h e n w e w o n d e r e d , w h a t if* y o u d i d n ;t t r y
to focus on the l i g h t , bu t i n s t e a d the
co spaces between the light?
XN3IMm3dx3

Lights off and strobe back on Kaino, who

is holding perfectly still.

252 Debra Singer, the outgoing executive director of The
ONE OF TWO FACES Kitchen, programmed A.Bandit fo r the last show
A.Bandit. The Kitchen, New York, 2011 before her departure. Several of the pieces from the
earlier SoHo House show made their way into The
Kitchen show, w ith some notew orthy additions.
Even previously shown w orks were refined for
presentation in New York.
A c t 1: A. rt A ctiva to r
The house lights dim, and a stage light begins to glow
to reveal the performers flanking a large circular disc
with a spiral pattern on it. They introduce the wheel
as an “activator” and ask the audience to stare directly
into the center of it while they spin it. After several
seconds of staring at the wheel, viewers— whose
hands were stamped with "A.RT” p riorto entering the
show—are told to look down directly at their hands.
The word bubbles in a magical illusion.
5
3
a c t i v e image, g e n e r a t i n g t h e a c t i v a t i o n .
Which means that even passively sitting
t h ere you are act i v e l y participating.
DELGAUDIO
Keep focusing on the w h e e l . 工 ’
m g o i n g to
c o unt b a c k f r o m t e n no w and s h o w t h a t we
a r e a c t i v a t e d . P l e a s e c o u n t w i t h m e . Ten,
n i n e ； eight, seven, six, f i v e ； four, three,
t w o , o n e . N o w l o o k at t h e s t a m p o n t h e b a c k
of your h a n d .

A DOT FOR ACTIVATION

©The Kitchen A large wheel with a spiral destgn is
mounted on a stool sitting on the stage.
Presents
DelGaudio andKaino are on each side of it •
They spin the wheel and talk while it
spins. Then they stop the wheel and tell
everyone to look at the back ofthetr hands .
簡 祕 祕 . DELGAUDIO
Earlier this evening, you got your hand
O stamped on the way into our s h o w . Just
— Ш 25
r e m i n d i n g y o u b e c a u s e y o u fr e g o i n g t o
i ^ I n e e d t h a t s t a m p soon.

KAINO A c t 2: The M istake Room

You are now about to witness an a c t i v a ­

k B A N D IT t i o n . T h i s is a n a c t i v a t o r . S o m e o f y o u
m a y say, “t h a t ’s b u l l s h i t . ” W e l l , y o u
d o n ;t k n o w w h a t t h e f u c k y o u ;re t a l k i n g
ABANDITSHIP a b o u t ; t h i s s h i t is rad.
DELGAUDIO
F o r t h e n e x t m i n u t e o r so, y o u m u s t lis-
t e n t o m e a n d d o e x a c t l y as 工 say. P l e a s e
stare into the center of the wheel and
d o n o t m o v e y o u r e y e s aw a y .
KAINO
T h i s is a n a c t i v e a c t i v a t o r , a c t i v a t i n g
t h i s s p a c e . [Spins w h e e l . ] T o n i g h t , w e are
all t h e a c t i v a t o r s , a n d t h e a c t i v a t e d .
DELGAUDIO
D o n o t l o o k away.
KAINO
DelGaudio enters a small booth with a mirror on the
outside that they call the Mistake Room, while Kaino
stands outside looking at himself in the mirror. The
lighting in the room subtly changes, which causes
the apparently two-way m irror to become transpar­
ent, allowing the audience to see DelGaudio in it.
He practices the common Color-Changing Card rou­
tine in the the m irror changes back to its initial,
shiny state.
KAINO
H e s w i t c h e d it. T h e l i g h t s w e r e o n o u t
t h e r e a n d n o w t h e y ;r e o n i n h e r e . T h i s
is t h e v i e w f r o m t h e o u t s i d e . T h i s is
w h e r e w e wo r k .
We believe that mistakes have become
the only means of progress given our world
today. P e r f e c t i o n is easy. It^s b e e n m a p p e d
a n d d e s c r i b e d . It j u s t t a k e s p r a c t i c e .
P r a c t i c e m a k e s p e r f e c t , so t h e y say.

SMOHS
T h e t u n n e l y o u a r e e n t e r i n g is r e a l , a n d And everybody knows that blow fake
it i s n ’
t. It is a n i l l u s i o n i n s i d e o f a n mistakes.
 5
2
5
5
4
2
Some say that secrets have two faces ,
the knowledge that a secret exists, and A c t 6: 184 Seconds
the secret content itself. Our dilemma
has b een h o w to show w o r k wit h o u t ex p o s i n g DelGaudio walks over and takes a s e a t i n
the m e thods that give our w o r k agency. the dark a t a small table. Lights onKaino.
We have since discovered that in
order for some of our wor k to be fully KAINO
realized, it n e e d s t o b e e x p e r i e n c e d in D e r e k is n o t w h o h e s a y s h e is . D e r e k is
two parts, and that those two parts a c t u ­ an artist trapped in a m a g i c i a n ’s
a l l y c a n n o t exi s t in the same p e r f o r m a t i v e history.
s p a c e , at t h e same t i m e ； or t h e y c a n c e l W h e n he w a s s e v e n t e e n y e a r s o l d he
each other o u t . He explained, “ I d i d n / 1 r e a l l y b r e a k it • found himself in Denver, Colorado , in
Mistakes on the other hand are h i d ­ We therefore present Three Halves 工 broke it conceptually. It c a n ’t b e a t he b a c k of a p o o l hall, s i t t i n g in f r ont
den secrets and unknown variables. of Three Pieces. still. 工t has to be moving . . . I can of a l e g e n d a r y card m e c h a n i c w h o he h e a r d
Mistakes are subversions into the i m a g ­ make each of the five reflections become lived in that city. He introduced him­
ined future of an idealized outcome. individuals while still being the same self, and the man had asked to see him
We can visualize perfect. We cannot p e r s o n •” s h u f f l e ; s o D e r e k b e g a n w o r k i n g . 工t w a s
v i s u a l i z e m i s t a k e s , a n d t h a t ;s e x c i t i n g . A c t 4: The Grand Finale The next day, Glenn showed me the like the old gun slinger testing the
If 工 asked you right now what Derek was v i d e o he h a d sh o t in t h e m i r r o r . He c h o s e y o u n g gun slinger.
g o i n g to do next, y o u c o u l d d e s c r i b e his DelGaudto walks out onstage, Katno remains to lip sync to the o n l y s o n g he k n e w that So he s t a r t e d to shuffle, and e v e r y ­
actions perfectly. If I t h e n t o l d y o u to backstage. A) had five singers, and B ) he could thing was perfect and in o r der because
describe the next mistake he was going remember the l y r i c s to . he h a d b e e n practicing. He finished and
to make, y o u w o u l d have to invent it. DELGAUDIO This is G l e n n fs c o n f e s s i o n a l . It looked up . . . and saw the man holding
G l e n n has a lot of secrets . He leads m u l t i ­ was shot at 3am in j u s t one take. a g u n p o i n t e d at him. He said, “j u s t h o p e
The audience watches through five ple lives .This picture reminds me of t h a t . This is a s e l f - p o r t r a i t . t h e y get yo u in the heart, kid.”
repetitions. I remember the first time 工 saw this He was teaching Derek a valuable
p h o t o . Glenn and 工 were talking about See also pp. 142-145. lesson. If he were to a t t e m p t t h ose t e c h ­
As you will find out tonight: We d o n ’t chess, and he pulled down a book on ni q u e s at a card t a b l e , w i t h strangers,
practice. D u c h a m p ； f l i p p e d t h r o u g h it, a n d ； a s t h e in a n a t t e m p t t o s t e a l mon e y , he b e t t e r
Welcome to the Mistake Room. [Cue pages f l e w b y, there it w a s . be damn sure h e ;s n o t admiring his own
Superman theme mus-ic.] I t o l d h i m to stop, a n d 工 just stared A c t 5: The P erform ance hands and t e c h n i q u e .
at the p h o t o . 工 had never seen the photo of a M irro r That was the day Derek learned that
b e f o r e ; but 工 said, “ I have sat at that secrets don't mean anything if people
t a b l e . I k n o w who owns t hat m i r r o r • His DelGaudio andKaino are standing on stage k n o w y o u ha v e them.
A c t 3: Tyranny of Vision name is Johnny Gaughan • Johnny is t h e looking out at the audience. They alter­ One day Derek called me and told me
world s 1 premier illusion fabricator, nate b e g i n n i n g a s e n t e n c e , with the other he came up with a new piece that was
See SoHo House script, pages 249-251. and, in the w o r l d of magie, h e is a l i v ­ ftnishing. u n l i k e a n y t h i n g h e h a d e v e r d o n e . I w o n ’t
ing legend. speak more about t h i s , but I will tell
工 took Glenn to meet J o h n n y . We Some men interpret nine m e m o s . y o u o n e s e c r e t a b o u t t h i s p i e c e : it t o o k
In betw een A cts 3 and 4: a s ked if we cou l d take a p i c t u r e s i t t i n g Was it a r a t 工 saw? h i m f i f t e e n years to learn ho w to do this .
at t h e m i r r o r . He o f f e r e d t o let us b o r ­ Was i t E l i o t ;s t o i l e t I saw? This is D e r e k ^ s self-portrait.
DelGaudio and Kaino take turns speaking: row the mirror. W e did. D a m m i t ! I ;ш M a d .
So , the mirror sat at the studio M u r d e r f o r a j a r o f r e d rum. The lights darken on stage, and a single
You are now about to see one half of for nine m o n t h s . Glenn wanted to create Do g e ese see god? l-ight appears over DelGaudio, who sets
swo

three p i e c e s . a confessional with the mirror. He t o o k Madam, 工 Adam. a watch to one m i n u t e and hands i t t o an
v

W e fv e done a lot of w o r k over the every picture imaginable but just E v e . [Said together.] audience member. He then unboxes several
fc past year and have m ade g ood ground. couldn't get it r i g h t . D e v i l n e v e r e v e n lived. decks of cards and asks the person to
OMJL

One of the most difficult things T h e n o n e day, he c a l l e d in t h e mid- N e v e r o d d or even. start the clock. “Start!’’ He deals cards
§

weWe had to c o n t e n d with, h o w e v e r ; has d l e of* t h e n i g h t a n d s a i d , “D u d e ! I b r o k e into a pile on the table and, a minute

s i s
been the nature of secrecy and how to the m i r r o r !,T I was horrified. “W h a t do later， the person calls “Stop!’’ Derek
wNto

craft with secret knowledge. y o u m e a n !!! ’’ counts the cards in his hand, grabs a

iiim iiim ii
256 pen, writes 184- seconds^ on a piece of Kaino gathers a group of ten audience t h r o u g h China. He responded, “I stopped 257
o3
paper， then stands up. members, who are tnvtted to the stage and t elling people ha l f of the things I w i t ­

are placed i n a c i r c l e , with DelGaudio nessed over there because they simply

at the top.
0M1

See also pp. 130-135. wouldn't believe m e . ”

We w anted to take you on that j o u r ­

DELGAUDIO n e y and give yo u a s t o r y so a m a z i n g that,

工n a moment, Glenn is g o i n g t o w h i s p e r tomorrow, when you tell people about your

A c t 7: One of Two Faces a secret in m y ear. After he tells me trip, t h e y w i l l c a l l y o u a liar. Now, we

that secr e t , I will decide whether to realize that it is u n r e a l i s t i c and far

Despite the title referencing the tw o faces of a p a s s o n G l e n n ^ s s e c r e t o r o n e o f m y own. too e x pensive to take all of y o u to China,

secret—the knowledge that the secret exists, and the T h e n , in t u r n ; each of you will make so w e h a v e b r o u g h t C h i n a t o you. Please

se cre t in fo rm a tio n its e lf 一 A .B a nd it w anted to that same decision, wh e t h e r to pass on w e l c o m e C h i n a Chow!

acknowledge the witness as an invisible third part of the secret you were given , or one of
the equation, nodding to the importance of recogniz­ your o w n . See also pp. 38-47.
ing the moments of perform ance shared between
everyone involved. The printed program, which every The audience members each pass the secret
viewer was given as a guide for the evening, doubled along, ending with Kaino, who reveals,
as a decoder ring at home. The duo had encoded “J w a s born with a sixth finger.
secrets into the program; if the viewer spent enough
time figuring them out, he or she would be rewarded
with certain aspects of how the show works behind
the scenes. A c t 10: A W alk T hrough China

KAINO
[reading/Vom 工t a l o CaT/Uino's I n v i s i b l e
A c t 8: Set Sale Cities (uThtn C i t i e s 2f f, 1972)~\

See Set Sale performance, pages 48-53. M a r c o P o l o i m a g i n e d a n s w e r i n g (or K u b l a i

K h a n i magined his answer) that the more
one was lost in u n f a m i l i a r quarters of
distant c i t i e s ； the more one u nderstood
A c t 9: No Sm all Secrets the o t her cities he h a d c r o s s e d to arrive
there; and he r e t r a c e d the stages of his
KAINO journeys , and he came to know the port
There are no small secrets. from which he had set sail, and the
familiar places of his youth, and the
DELGAUDIO s u r r o u n d i n g s of home, a n d a l i ttle s q u a r e
We all have secrets. Everyone , think o f V e n i c e w h e r e he g a m b o l l e d as a child.
a b out a se c r e t y o u have. T o n i g h t we are
g o i n g to g i v e a f e w o f y o u one more. DELGAUDIO
工n 1271 Marco Polo set sail for China.
Seventeen years later , he returned to
his home in Venice, and, when asked how
his tr i p w a s ； his stories w e r e so e x t r a o r ­
d i n a r y t h a t n o one b e l i e v e d him. H e s p o k e
of black rocks that would catch fire and
b u r n for hours, clo t h e s lac e d w i t h gold,
and plants that would heal the sick.
He became known as “t h e man of a
CO
m i l l i o n lies . " Toward the end of his life
a writer asked Marco about his trip

m im iim m
In & Of Itse lf \s, at heart, an exploration of the sup­ 259
posed s in g u la rity of id e n tity in an increasingly WERNER ENTERTAINMENT | GARY GODDARD ENTERTAINMENT
fractured world. Like all individuals, this performance PREDICTION PRODUCTIONS AND NEIL PATRICK HARRIS PRESENT
piece is both a fully realized, complex whole and yet,

OF ITSELF
simultaneously, nothing more than a series of flat­
tened transient images perceived by an audience. At
every moment, viewers can receive each stage pic­
ture at face value, or can attem pt to build a more
complex, integrated w ho le ... while realizing that both
interpretations are equally “true.” In service of this
central duality, objects are purposed and repurposed,
their backstories and futures shifted, and the audi­
IS AN
ence is forced to co nsta ntly reevaluate labels,
assumptions, and expectations. The piece thrives in 4 .
the interplay of perceived and received identity, using
storytelling, magic, and design to circle closer and
closer to its inexorable central message. This is iden­
tity in the modern world: I am what I am. I am also,
equally, what you see. As such, what you are reading

9T0S
now is the second half of the show: one individualized
reaction, a singular personal interpretation, one audi­
CQ

一
99
ence m em ber's w itness to the thing itself. True

UYs o
ho
perception consists of equal parts projection and
reception ... meaning no one person can control it.

q sno
The temporal aspects of this piece are also ar
used to further drive the point home— in a theatrical

4X B s u soy7 a Jyo
space, where no tw o people can occupy the same m . м
seat, in a live show that changes from night to night,
it is literally impossible that two individuals w ill ever <l>
see precisely the same thing . . . and thus, the piece
itself must inevitably shift as a result. No one can pos­ 42

sibly see the same show, and yet, the show itself pre­

啗
sents a consistent, cohesive experience . . . doesn't

w j jМ
it? Identity is both fluid and static, both this and not-

o
this, both remarkably simple and impossibly complex.

Л a E IPBaldsMql o J xo
.2
It is perhaps in this inherent duality that true selves
brl
can be found.
-s

—TRAVIS SENTELL C R EATED & PR E F O R M E D BY

DEREK DELGAUDIO bc
.s

FRANK OZ CH'
P rod uce r O rig in a l M u s ic By
cq
Glenn Kaino Tom W erner M ark Mothersbaugh

^ 泠
w j joj J ^ S O J
DARYL ROTH THEATRE ( 212) 375-1110 #inandofitself w.inandofitselfshow.com

S M O K S
 - Ш & г ； ■* ''
» _ _ ш ： ：1 fe d 鍾 . ： V .::.

ш ш ш ш ш
 262 figs. 1-5 Various entries from the Ship^ Log from In & Of Itself. The log is a collaborative documentation project between 263
DelGaudio and a member of his audience, chosen during each show, who records what they have seen.
S 3 S J L IЛ
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THE ARTISTS WOULD LIKE TO THANK Copyright © 2017 A.Bandit, Derek DelGaudio, and Glenn Kaino
Denise Markonish Neil Patrick Harris for their respective works
David Blaine Tom Werner
Teller Gil Cates, Jr. All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced or
Marina Abramovi6 Randall Arney transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechan­
John Baldessari Michael Carbonaro ical, including photocopy, recording, or any other information
Ricky Jay Lauri Firstenberg storage and retrieval system, or otherwise without written per­
Tony DeLap Gideon Webster mission from the publisher.
Michael Weber Luke LizaIde
Mike Caveney Travis Sentell A Cl P catalogue record for this book is available from the British
Ti 门a Lenert Tracey Shiftman Library.
John Gaughan Jonny Woods
John Lovick James Ihira Library of Congress Control Number: 2017956821
Max Maven Mary DelMonico
Shoot Ogawa Dan and Dave Buck ISBN 978-3-7913-5564-1
Rob Zabrecky Debra Singer
Sebastien Clergue Editor: Jane Hyun
Frank Oz Design: Tracey Shiftman and James Ihira, Shiftman & Kohnke,
with Jonny Woods, Glenn Kaino Studio
GLENN WOULD LIKE TO SPECIALLY THANK Cover Illustration: Michelle Parrott
Corey Lynn Calter Printer: Dr. Cantz'sche Druckerei Medien GmbH
Sadie Jane Kaino
Stella Rose Kaino Printed and bound in Germany

DEREK WOULD LIKE TO SPECIALLY THANK

Vanessa Lauren PHOTOGRAPHY CREDITS
Chaplin A.Bandit: pages 68 (bottom), 70-75,80-89,146,148-149,152-
Alexandra DelGaudio 155,171,181,252, 256, 262-271
Jennifer Lohrig-DelGaudio Kelly Barrie: 56-57,138,150-151,156-161,170,172 (bottom),
173, 241,246-247
© Paula Court, courtesy of The Kitchen: 48-53, 76-79, 131-
Published in 2017 by DelMonico Books-Prestel 135,174 (bottom), 253-255,257
Sebastien Clergue: 273
DelMonico Books, an imprint of Prestel, a member of Bryce Craig: 260-261,272
Verlagsgruppe Random House GmbH Jim Dziura: 1,36 (bottom)-37,94-95,96 (top), 97,101 -103,124,
126-129,178,249-251,274
Prestel Verlag Hammer Museum, Los Angeles: 90
Neumarkter Strasse 28 Charley Gallay: 96 (bottom), 99,100
81673 Munich Amy Graves Photography © Museum Associates/LACMA:
104-105,106 (top), 110
Prestel Publishing Ltd. Glenn Kaino Studio: 46, 54-55,139,169,172 (top), 184
14-17 Wells Street Christie Hemm Klok: 31
London W1T3PD Stefanie Keenan: 38-45, 47, 66-67, 68 (top), 69, 118-119,
136-137
Prestel Publishing Ben Pratt: 62-63
900 Broadway, Suite 603 Nat Sin: 147
New York, NY 10003 Storefront for Art and Architecture: 58-61
Jonny Woods: 162-168,174 (top)
www.prestel.com

ILLUSTRATION CREDITS
Bill Robles: pages 108-109,112-113 ,114 (bottom)-115
M a rin a A bram ovid
John B aldessari
David Eliaine
Tony D eL ap
D ere k D elG au d io
Ricky Jay
G lenn Kaino
D en ise M arko nish
M a x M aven
Teller