Orléans » Strategy » Is there such a thing as

an optimal starting move?

Author: Skippy668
Maximizing the actions you can take is the way to winning this game. I see three different ways to do
this:
1) Increase the number of tiles you draw by advancing on the Knights Track.
2) Tailor the tiles in your bag so that you draw what you need to take the actions you want without
being stuck with stuff you can't use.
3) Decrease the number of tiles you need to take an action. Mainly this is done by placing Technology
Tiles.

You will want to keep working on this throughout the game, of course, but the first three or four turns
are crucial in getting your engine going.
So I was wondering: is there an optimal starting move?

I don't claim to have the answer to that question, which is why I'd like to hear what other people think.
I am not even completely convinced that there can be an optimal starting move as so much of the
progression of the game depends on what your opponents are doing.

So far I have come up with two starting moves that seem very strong to me. The second is really just
a variant of the first, though, so I suspect that I might have manoeuvred myself into a corner and need
some fresh ideas.

Variant 1
1) On your first turn you go to the Village to hire a Craftsman. The Technology Tile is placed on the
Farmer in the Village.
2a) On your second turn you have a Farmer, two Craftsmen, a Boatsman, and a Trader available. You
send the Boatsman and a Craftsman to the Village to hire another Craftsman and place the Technology
Tile on the Boatsman in the Castle. That means from now on you can activate both the Village and the
Castle using the four tiles you started with.
2b) You still have a Farmer, a Craftsman, and a Trader available, the people you need to get a Scholar
from the University. This is the only way I have found to make use of all the tiles available on the
second turn. I am not sure it is the best option to get a Scholar at this point, though. If you do, you
will have seven tiles in the bag, and you will still draw only four, which means the chances are high
that you won't get the tiles you need to activate the Castle and the Village on turn 3. Is it worth the
risk to not waste a potential action?

Variant 2
1) On your first turn you go to the Castle.
2) You follow the same steps as in Variant 1 (just one turn later).
This way around it is less risky, but you don't actually use the ability to draw five tiles until turn 4,
which seems wasteful.

Any thoughts?
Wed Jul 1, 2015 8:02 pm
Author: Jonezy
Might try your opening next time. Got 6-7 games in of Orléans, and in my group we tend to start with
a boatsman, so you can get a knight and a farmer on turn 2 and already on turn 3 can start using the
top 3 actions (ship, wagon and guild hall) if you want.

Problem with both our starts is that we probably will not have first dips on the buildings....
Wed Jul 1, 2015 10:17 pm
Author: scud
Quote:
On your second turn you have a Farmer, two Craftsmen, a Boatsman, and a Trader available...

This seems like a very strong opening. Also it made me realise that we played this wrong. We used the
number on the knight track as the maximum of followers that are allowed in the market. So in your
example I would have drawn only three new tokens...oops.
 Thu Jul 2, 2015 12:18 am
Author: Skippy668
Jonezy wrote:
Problem with both our starts is that we probably will not have first dips on the buildings....

True, and I meant to mention that in our group the Bathhouse is banned from the game.
The buildings I would go for, usually on turn four and five, are the Windmill (to make use of all those
craftsmen) and the Laboratory (to get even more Technology Tiles).

Thu Jul 2, 2015 6:36 am

Author: Larry Levy
A popular opening move in our group is to take a Scholar on the first turn. Then, on the second turn,
you can grab a Monk and go to the Village (probably to take a Craftsman, but a Trader is also an
option). Getting a Monk on Turn 2 gives you a lot of flexibility and there's often a race to take them.

Now, this strategy isn't foolproof, since if the No Monks event comes up on Turn 2, you're screwed. But
since there's only 2 of those tiles left in the pile after the first turn, your chances of success are over
88%. And if that event doesn't show up, you're able to use all 5 of your tiles and activate two useful
buildings on the second turn.

I'm not a big fan of going to the Castle on Turn 1, since, as you noted, you won't need to draw 5 tiles
for a couple of turns. But depending on what your overall strategy is, the attractiveness of the different
opening moves can vary.
Sat Jul 4, 2015 8:48 pm
Author: Skippy668
Larry Levy wrote:
A popular opening move in our group is to take a Scholar on the first turn. Then, on the second turn, you can grab a
Monk and go to the Village (probably to take a Craftsman, but a Trader is also an option). Getting a Monk on Turn 2 gives
you a lot of flexibility and there's often a race to take them.

I'll have to try that.

The last time I played against other people, I used my strategy described above and won handily (with
150 points in a 5-player game), although I hadn't really thought it througoh and was making up the
plan as I went.

Since then I have played solo a few times (first just playing the 2-player-variant alone, then using the
solo rules posted in the Files section), and consistently scored around 200 points. So that is my
benchmark.
Sun Jul 5, 2015 8:46 am
Author: Loxagon
Skippy668 wrote:

Variant 1
1) On your first turn you go to the Village to hire a Craftsman. The Technology Tile is placed on the Farmer in the Village.
2a) On your second turn you have a Farmer, two Craftsmen, a Boatsman, and a Trader available. You send the Boatsman
and a Craftsman to the Village to hire another Craftsman and place the Technology Tile on the Boatsman in the Castle.
That means from now on you can activate both the Village and the Castle using the four tiles you started with.
2b) You still have a Farmer, a Craftsman, and a Trader available, the people you need to get a Scholar from the
University. This is the only way I have found to make use of all the tiles available on the second turn. I am not sure it is
the best option to get a Scholar at this point, though. If you do, you will have seven tiles in the bag, and you will still
draw only four, which means the chances are high that you won't get the tiles you need to activate the Castle and the
Village on turn 3. Is it worth the risk to not waste a potential action?

These are the chances for the 3rd turn, if you take the Scholar on turn 2:

Out of 35 possible outcomes there are 6 chances (~17%) to get 2 actions.

3 of them are Village & Castle, the other 3 Village & Monastery.
23 of 35 outcomes (~66%) provide 1 action (13 Village, 4 Castle, 3 Monastery and 3 Castle or
Monastery).

Finally 6 of 35 outcomes (~17%) will provide no action on turn 3!

With having 7 tiles and getting more every turn it is important to get some knights to draw enough
from the bag or the objective of maximizing your actions will fail.
Out of the 35 possible draws only 10 provide a Castle action, that is only about 29%.

Looking at the chances I don't really like the option 2b). Though it is counter intuitive not to do an
action if it is available, I would save the Farmer and the Trader to secure a Castle action on the next
turn (either placing them in the Castle to wait for the Technology Tile or by leaving them in the
Market). The Scholar is kind of a dead piece without a knight (that you don't have yet) or a Trader.
And the one Trader there is should rather be used for the Castle than for the Monastery.

All in all I don't like the chances of option 2b), but ofc everyone can decide if to take the risk of getting
the Scholar or not.
Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:12 am
Author: Skippy668
Thanks for doing the math.
I have come to the same conclusion that I would probably rather play it safe than take the risk.
Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:45 am
Author: Eleon
Here are my thoughts on best opening move:

First take a building action (to get a craftsman). Leaves 1 piece in market
Next take a University to get a grey scholar. Leaves 2 pieces in market
Third turn you now have what is needed for a monk and your original
starting pieces to take any other action (castle is my next favorite, but getting a gear is also strong)
unless I am forced to farm because of needing a food item).

From here it is all based on what builds are possible and what is open.

It is tempting to get level 1 and 2 building back to back, but I feel having 3 black craftsmen is not that
helpful for getting more actions fast, unless you "just need" that critical level II building for your game
tactics.
Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:32 pm
Author: Gamer_Dog
Skippy668 wrote:
Maximizing the actions you can take is the way to winning this game.
...
Any thoughts?

I have played just 3 games, but have rocked some very high scores, and I have opened with
craftsman, automating the village (as I'm sure many have). I've considered other options, but I just
can't see how it can be beaten, for essentially the main reason you've addressed regarding maximizing
actions. Being able activate both village and castle on turn 2 gets you off to a very fast start, gets you
to 5 draws, and effectively a much higher output because you've automated 2 of the most effective
actions.

From there, I find the pull of buildings to be very strong though. Now that you've picked the low
hanging fruit on automation and draws, the difference between furthering those, and grabbing the
better buildings is a difficult trade-off.

It makes me wonder if the action oriented path is why some of the buildings feel over-powered. After
all, if actions appear to be the strongest strategy after complaints about over-powered buildings, than
maybe those buildings aren't as strong as we thought, and we simply haven't gotten high enough on
the learning curve.

I like this game, and think the designer did a fantastic job with the bag building mechanic. However, it
doesn't feel wide open to me, and it plays a bit long as you're running out what feels like a scripted
engine builder where you turn to the board roughly halfway through, and many of your early choices
are gone.
Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:04 pm
Author: Eleon
I almost always play 4-5 player games, which might be why the "good" actions disappear so fast in my
games.

More actions is always strong, but nothing is worse than having lots of actions and all of them being
semi sub-optimal choices.

By the middle of the game you will have wanted to build toward moving your merchant and building a
trade house and activating at least one point building every turn.

In every game I have played, every action has run out of people (and thus no one can take them)
except for Boatmen and once in a rare while farmers. This can happen sometimes 5 turns before the
end of the game.

Then all that is left to do is try to build boatmen for the coins, move around the map (with everyone
else also doing so taking up most of the good stuff fast), and use your buildings.

This is why getting the good buildings ASAP is more important than getting actions right away. I tend
to go for more actions after I get the two buildings I want.
Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:12 pm
Author: Fonzie
Optimal opening plans can be ruined easily if Harvest is the first hourglass turned - In a game we
played such a situation happened and all but 1 player produced a farmer so as to get grain. The player
who didn't get the farmer had to pay their starting $5 and then was tortured beginning the next round
for being the least farmey. In this case your optimal opening changes right away. Great game.
Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:55 am
Author: Gamer_Dog
Eleon wrote:
I almost always play 4-5 player games, which might be why the "good" actions disappear so fast in my games.

More actions is always strong, but nothing is worse than having lots of actions and all of them being semi sub-optimal
choices.

By the middle of the game you will have wanted to build toward moving your merchant and building a trade house and
activating at least one point building every turn.

In every game I have played, every action has run out of people (and thus no one can take them) except for Boatmen
and once in a rare while farmers. This can happen sometimes 5 turns before the end of the game.

Then all that is left to do is try to build boatmen for the coins, move around the map (with everyone else also doing so
taking up most of the good stuff fast), and use your buildings.

This is why getting the good buildings ASAP is more important than getting actions right away. I tend to go for more
actions after I get the two buildings I want.

Having now played a 5p game, I agree. The choices are much tighter.

Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:05 pm

Author: mike18xx
All the buildings have their strengths (given you being cognizant of what tactics best exploit them) and
weaknesses (chief among them: you're buying an investment instead of growing your snowball bigger
THIS turn).

I have scored in excess of 160 points without buying any buildings until very near the end, so it is
certainly not necessary that you jump on them out-of-the-gate.

IMO the Craftsmen are stupidly important in four- and especially five-player games, and you do *not*
want to be that "poor dear" who gets stuck with only a few of them, falling hopelessly behind the
acceleration groove.

=====
Common "strong opening move": Craftsman, with the gear going on the village farmer. This permits all
five workers to perfectly activate the village and the university next turn. 2nd turn: Craftsman again
with the gear going on the castle boatman.

Variant of the strong open: again take Craftsmen repeatedly, placing gears on: 1. university farmer, 2
village boatman, 3. castle boatman, 4. monastery trader or farm house boatman, etc.

In either case, jam the castle as fast as you can, and you are very quickly activating two and then
three places per turn to other player's one or two. (If you draw soldiers, simply park them out-of-the-
way for the time being.)

I've played the game about a dozen times now, and I'm of the opinion that it's difficult if not outright
impossible to win it without having a gear covering a space in the village very early on. -- If you're still
drawing four and placing three in your village on turn four when I'm already pulling six workers and
needing only two to activate my village, you've been left in the dust.
Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:23 am
Author: actaion
mike18xx wrote:

Common "strong opening move": Craftsman, with the gear going on the village farmer. This permits all five workers to
perfectly activate the village and the university next turn. 2nd turn: Craftsman again with the gear going on the castle
boatman.

Variant of the strong open: again take Craftsmen repeatedly, placing gears on: 1. university farmer, 2 village boatman, 3.
castle boatman, 4. monastery trader or farm house boatman, etc.

In either case, jam the castle as fast as you can, and you are very quickly activating two and then three places per turn
to other player's one or two. (If you draw soldiers, simply park them out-of-the-way for the time being.)

I've played the game about a dozen times now, and I'm of the opinion that it's difficult if not outright impossible to win it
without having a gear covering a space in the village very early on. -- If you're still drawing four and placing three in your
village on turn four when I'm already pulling six workers and needing only two to activate my village, you've been left in
the dust.

I usually play that, too.

There is one laternative, though.
Get two building early, among them the laboratory. With this you don't need any craftsmen and thus
don't need a wheel on the village.
Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:43 am
Author: emcglohon
mike18xx wrote:

Common "strong opening move": Craftsman, with the gear going on the village farmer. This permits all five workers to
perfectly activate the village and the university next turn. 2nd turn: Craftsman again with the gear going on the castle
boatman.

Variant of the strong open: again take Craftsmen repeatedly, placing gears on: 1. university farmer, 2 village boatman, 3.
castle boatman, 4. monastery trader or farm house boatman, etc.

In either case, jam the castle as fast as you can, and you are very quickly activating two and then three places per turn
to other player's one or two. (If you draw soldiers, simply park them out-of-the-way for the time being.)

I've played the game about a dozen times now, and I'm of the opinion that it's difficult if not outright impossible to win it
without having a gear covering a space in the village very early on. -- If you're still drawing four and placing three in your
village on turn four when I'm already pulling six workers and needing only two to activate my village, you've been left in
the dust.

Yeah, I pretty much agree, you need to hit the craftsman spot hard and early. It's generally one of the
spots that runs out first.

What I'm wrestling with now is when to buy the buildings. It depends on how high your group values
the bathhouse (if they play with it). That building is so good (IMO) it's probably worth delaying on the
craftsman.
So many really good buildings, and the craftsmans, and the castle. decisions, decisions.
Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:35 pm
Author: mike18xx
emcglohon wrote:
What I'm wrestling with now is when to buy the buildings. It depends on how high your group values the bathhouse (if
they play with it). That building is so good (IMO) it's probably worth delaying on the craftsman.

IMO it's too good with either version of the rules (it amounts to "I win!" in experienced hands). It can
be tamed by restricting the tile returned to only those two drawn, or making the Bathhouse just draw
one single, extra tile (which in itself is such a strong ability that I am surprised that it's not the way it
was in the first place).

Aside from the Bathhouse, if you delay a gear-rush strategy to buy buildings, the Winery is an
intriguing choice. -- On the second turn, grab and place a gear on the Winery's farmer spot. From turn
3 onward, this nets you a 3pt good for a single spare black dude (and they are your "leftovers" anyway
during gear-rush + early building) every turn until the booze is all gone (usually there's quite a lot of
it, like a dozen), and frees up that rotten boatman spot in the Village for your second gear (alleviating
you of the necessity if taking more boatmen, which you'll feel compelled to do almost immediately).
Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:31 pm
Author: Gamer_Dog
mike18xx wrote:
emcglohon wrote:
What I'm wrestling with now is when to buy the buildings. It depends on how high your group values the bathhouse (if
they play with it). That building is so good (IMO) it's probably worth delaying on the craftsman.

IMO it's too good with either version of the rules (it amounts to "I win!" in experienced hands). It can be tamed by
restricting the tile returned to only those two drawn, or making the Bathhouse just draw one single, extra tile (which in
itself is such a strong ability that I am surprised that it's not the way it was in the first place).

The more I've played, the less over-powered I feel the bath-house is (at least in the US version). It
feels more like you need the bath-house as a way to make buildings a viable first move. I'd put it
among the strongest, but it's not my personal #1 --at least not right now.
Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:32 am
Author: mike18xx
What level 1 do you rate higher?

(Given that even the "weak" version's effect is nearly identical to two Castle levels -- assuming you'll
usually have one leftover peep who doesn't pair up, with the Bathhouse enabling fine-tuning of that --
I cannot fathom a more powerful game accelerant once you have a half-dozen or more men in the
bag.)
Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:32 am
Author: Gamer_Dog
mike18xx wrote:
What level 1 do you rate higher?

(Given that even the "weak" version's effect is nearly identical to two Castle levels -- assuming you'll usually have one
leftover peep who doesn't pair up, with the Bathhouse enabling fine-tuning of that -- I cannot fathom a more powerful
game accelerant once you have a half-dozen or more men in the bag.)

Let me preface by saying that I own the US printing. That said, I don't think your statement is valid. If
I follow your argument, you're saying that the Bathhouse 'is nearly identical to two castle levels'
because typically 1 of your draws will be unusable, and the bathhouse makes that draw usable.

I don't believe that is normal for good play. I'd say on average, I have a leftover draw somewhere
around a third of the time. Some games it can be quite low, for example if I have the school or
automated for monks, while others, I may run into it half the time.

Further, draws are rarely unusable, because you don't lose them, you store them. A more accurate
way of thinking of it is that you delay an action, not lose it.
Finally, there are other considerations such as the opportunity cost. For example, if there is a huge
stack of brocade in supply, I'll ultimately get more points off that than bathhouse draws, especially if
it's a 5p where good point generating buildings run low early.

I'll repeat that it is a great building. IMO it's among the top buildings in the game. I just don't
personally believe it's the strongest, or feel it's over-powered.
Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:33 pm
Author: actaion
mike18xx wrote:

(Given that even the "weak" version's effect is nearly identical to two Castle levels --

No, the weak version is identical to 0 castle levels as you don't gain any workers at all.
Not being able to use one during one turn doesn't cost you a worker, it just delays it to the next round.

Anyway I don't understand, why, after the author has corrected his first version admitting the
bathhouse was overpowered, TMG re-introduced an own overpowered strong version of the bathhouse.
Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:13 pm
Author: mike18xx
Gamer_Dog wrote:
For example, if there is a huge stack of brocade in supply, I'll ultimately get more points off that than bathhouse draws,
especially if it's a 5p where good point generating buildings run low early.

Bathhouse + gear/castle rush can net you 170+ points without any "point generating buildings" (this
strategy involves maxing out the development track by end-game w/guildhalls and citizens; many
buildings, such as the Pharmacy, assist here).

The decision isn't "Bathhouse or Tailor Shop", it's "Hell yeah I'm gonna grab that building that gives me
~16 extra tiles and ~16 extra 'mulligans', and then, later, another building that isn't as good as the
Tailor Shop, but which is still quite decent."

---
actaion wrote:
...No, the weak version is identical to 0 castle levels as you don't gain any workers at all.

What game's rule version is this? (I'm lost.)

Quote:
...why, after the author has corrected his first version admitting the bathhouse was overpowered, TMG re-introduced an
own overpowered strong version of the bathhouse....

Agreed. The Bathhouse, ideally, should have just been "draw one extra tile" (and I'll bet a lot of
players would still consider that too strong).
Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:13 am
Author: Gamer_Dog
mike18xx wrote:
Gamer_Dog wrote:
For example, if there is a huge stack of brocade in supply, I'll ultimately get more points off that than bathhouse draws,
especially if it's a 5p where good point generating buildings run low early.

Bathhouse + gear/castle rush can net you 170+ points without any "point generating buildings" (this strategy involves
maxing out the development track by end-game w/guildhalls and citizens; many buildings, such as the Pharmacy, assist
here).

The decision isn't "Bathhouse or Tailor Shop", it's "Hell yeah I'm gonna grab that building that gives me ~16 extra
tiles and ~16 extra 'mulligans', and then, later, another building that isn't as good as the Tailor Shop, but which is still quite
decent."

---

actaion wrote:
...No, the weak version is identical to 0 castle levels as you don't gain any workers at all.

What game's rule version is this? (I'm lost.)

 Quote:
...why, after the author has corrected his first version admitting the bathhouse was overpowered, TMG re-introduced an
own overpowered strong version of the bathhouse....

Agreed. The Bathhouse, ideally, should have just been "draw one extra tile" (and I'll bet a lot of players would still consider
that too strong).

You haven't rebutted anything in the analysis I've laid out. Also, "draw one extra tile" is the same as
advancing on the castle track.
Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:39 am
Author: mike18xx
Gamer_Dog wrote:
You haven't rebutted anything in the analysis I've laid out.

...getting back to which, you wrote: "...draws are rarely unusable, because you don't lose them, you
store them. A more accurate way of thinking of it is that you delay an action, not lose it."

-- A delayed (or suboptimal) action is, by definition, inferior to an optimal action not so inhibited. The
Bathhouse grants 50%-down-to-25% more tiles to look at (depending on one's drawing of 4-to-8
tiles base), and half that percentage more to keep (per TMG Deluxe rulebook). You are far more likely
to realize your "best possible draw" on any given turn with the Bathhouse than without it.

I have never beaten an experienced player who had the Bathhouse and deployed* it via the TMG
Deluxe rule that he could return any of the tiles drawn that turn (i.e., not just from the two extra
granted by the building). I have only once beaten (narrowly) an experienced player who had it, but
was playing with the slightly nerfed house-rule in which the discard had to be from among the two
extras draw.

* "Two soldiers, two scholars and two craftsmen...well that blows. Ok, Bathhouse, do your magic. Yay!
Two monks! ...So sorry, Sir Sucksalot, back into the bag you go...."

-- In my opinion, the TMG version of the Bathhouse is even more broke than the original, which
required a farmer to activate (and you might not have drawn one), and required that the additional
tiles be placed immediately (else forfeited back to the bag) in available action spaces (i.e., not the
Market, and savvy rules-lawyers would speak up if they noticed you trying to re-jigger things,
observing that you were now in Phase 5, Actions, not Phase 4, Planning).
Quote:
"draw one extra tile" is the same as advancing on the castle track.

Which is arguably better than a lot buildings presently in the game. ("Hello, Cheese Factory! We were
just talking about you!")
Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:49 am
Author: actaion
mike18xx wrote:
[q="Gamer_Dog"]it via the TMG Deluxe rule that he could return any of the tiles drawn that turn (i.e., not just from the
two extra granted by the building).

-- In my opinion, the TMG version of the Bathhouse is even more broke than the original, which required a farmer to
activate (and you might not have drawn one), and required that the additional tiles be placed immediately (else forfeited
back to the bag) in available action spaces (i.e., not the Market,

uh, I didn't know they made those extra change to make the bathhouse even stronger...they must be
crazy...

anyway, the official rule now authorized by the author and included in all the original dlp games from
the 2nd printing onwards is this:

- activate with 1 farmer - draw 2 workers - put one of them back in the bag - put the other one on an
action spot.

So you gain no extra worker, so no castle effect. All you get is an exchange of an farmer into some
other kind of worker. And, of course, th epossibilty to trigger a 1-worker-action twice a round.
Which can be very effective if you have a strong building with a gear on it.
First printing rule was "draw 3", so net gain of 1 worker (=1 castle effect) additional.
Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:27 pm
Author: Gamer_Dog
mike18xx wrote:
Gamer_Dog wrote:
You haven't rebutted anything in the analysis I've laid out.

...getting back to which, you wrote: "...draws are rarely unusable, because you don't lose them, you store them. A more
accurate way of thinking of it is that you delay an action, not lose it."

-- A delayed (or suboptimal) action is, by definition, inferior to an optimal action not so inhibited. The Bathhouse grants
50%-down-to-25% more tiles to look at (depending on one's drawing of 4-to-8 tiles base), and half that percentage more
to keep (per TMG Deluxe rulebook). You are far more likely to realize your "best possible draw" on any given turn with the
Bathhouse than without it.

I have never beaten an experienced player who had the Bathhouse and deployed* it via the TMG Deluxe rule that he could
return any of the tiles drawn that turn (i.e., not just from the two extra granted by the building). I have only once beaten
(narrowly) an experienced player who had it, but was playing with the slightly nerfed house-rule in which the discard had to
be from among the two extras draw.

* "Two soldiers, two scholars and two craftsmen...well that blows. Ok, Bathhouse, do your magic. Yay! Two monks! ...So
sorry, Sir Sucksalot, back into the bag you go...."

-- In my opinion, the TMG version of the Bathhouse is even more broke than the original, which required a farmer to
activate (and you might not have drawn one), and required that the additional tiles be placed immediately (else forfeited
back to the bag) in available action spaces (i.e., not the Market, and savvy rules-lawyers would speak up if they noticed
you trying to re-jigger things, observing that you were now in Phase 5, Actions, not Phase 4, Planning).

Quote:
"draw one extra tile" is the same as advancing on the castle track.

Which is arguably better than a lot buildings presently in the game. ("Hello, Cheese Factory! We were just talking about
you!")

Ok, looks like we're talking about two different Bathhouses. I've only played with the US retail printing
(although I picked up the 5p bits as I find the game tighter and more enjoyable at 5). That version
allows you to draw 2 and keep 1. If you're playing you can keep any tiles, that is more powerful. The
version I have means the Bathhouse is better, but not wildly so, than 1 castle level. It's common to
need a certain tile and not get it with 2 draws, especially if you haven't had time to cull your bag.

I think the crux of your frustration is apparent when you say you've never beaten an experienced
player with the Bathhouse.
Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:23 pm
Author: Eleon
The Bath House in the English version (draw two keep one), make it one of the three best level I
buildings. If there is a lot of Silk, that building is of value, and if both of those buildings are gone, the
hospital is rather nice (even if it forces one type of game on you).

When I am playing a more Casual game, my favorite start is:

Build a Level I building
Then build a university building.
This allows me to build a level II building or gear AND get a monk the next turn.

If people are not going crazy for buildings, I will get a gear, if buildings are going fast I will get a good
level II building.

The only time this happens differently is if the "pay a food" comes out on the 2nd turn of the game.
Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:47 pm
Author: justrick
I've won several times and each game I've only gotten 0-1 technology tokens. Craftsmen and
Boatsmen are not essential and Farmers are not that important either. The things that matter the most
is drawing more tiles to complete more actions, moving up the knowledge track, and building
guildhalls/trading posts or whatever they're called.
Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:07 pm
Author: actaion
Gamer_Dog wrote:

Ok, looks like we're talking about two different Bathhouses. I've only played with the US retail printing That version
allows you to draw 2 and keep 1. If you're playing you can keep any tiles, that is more powerful. The version I have
means the Bathhouse is better, but not wildly so, than 1 castle level.

1 to activate, draw 2, keep 1, means no net win, so no castle effect.

But afaik there is a version where the farmer symbol on the bathhouse is faded, so you can choose
between 2 variants: need a farmer to activate it or activate it for free each round. If you play the
strong version, it is better than a castle step of course, it is like the normal bathhouse + a castle step
extra then.
Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:50 pm
Author: mike18xx
It'd be good idea to list all the different "official" Bathhouse variations:

1. TMG (Deluxe, I don't know if there any difference with the basic rule-book): Draw two more, return
one from the entire draw. No activation required (the farmer spot is "faded"). Market capacity is not
checked until after the discard is rebagged.

2. TMG inferred original: farmer activates, upon activation, draw three tiles, select two (bag the other)
and move them to action spaces -- where it is possible those action spaces may be triggered again that
same turn. (Misapprehending this last part led me to lackluster appreciation of why people were so
bent on changing it.)

-- Both of these blow probability to smithereens. (Imagine having the #2 version Bathhouse in your
possession, as well as either the School or Herb Garden, and had a gear on the monastery -- you'd
stand an excellent chance of recruiting two monks per turn, and in short order have more than 50%
monks in your bag. By mid-game (after discards to town hall), it will be a rare situation that you are
unable to realize your best possible outcome every turn.)

3. Common modest nerf of TMG (published anywhere?): no activation required; draw two, return one
of the the two you drew.

4. Severe nerf: as #3, but requires activation (published anywhere?).

Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:52 am
Author: Gamer_Dog
actaion wrote:
Gamer_Dog wrote:

Ok, looks like we're talking about two different Bathhouses. I've only played with the US retail printing That version
allows you to draw 2 and keep 1. If you're playing you can keep any tiles, that is more powerful. The version I have
means the Bathhouse is better, but not wildly so, than 1 castle level.

1 to activate, draw 2, keep 1, means no net win, so no castle effect.

But afaik there is a version where the farmer symbol on the bathhouse is faded, so you can choose between 2 variants:
need a farmer to activate it or activate it for free each round. If you play the strong version, it is better than a castle step of
course, it is like the normal bathhouse + a castle step extra then.

I have the faded farmer version, which I was taught as having no activation, although I don't have the
rules handy to confirm how it appears. It's no activation, draw 2, keep 1, so it is as I described earlier
with regards to actions.
Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:00 am
Author: mike18xx
TMG rulebook Bathhouse:
Author: actaion
mike18xx wrote:

3. Common modest nerf of TMG (published anywhere?): no activation required; draw two, return one of the the two you
drew.

4. Severe nerf: as #3, but requires activation (published anywhere?).

yes, 4 is the official version approved by the author and published like this by the original publisher
(dlp) from 2nd edition onwards.

Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:48 am

Author: actaion
mike18xx wrote:
TMG rulebook Bathhouse:

alright, that "old rule" by TMG is identical with the very first published version by dlp.
DLP/the author then reduced it to 2 draws instead of 3 (otherwise identical, still a farmer activation) from 2nd printing

The new version by TMG is not as overpowered as I thought first, as you cannot double activate an action with it. It is
it's original function and turns into a castle effect with extra choice.

Author: mike18xx
actaion wrote:
mike18xx wrote:

3. Common modest nerf of TMG (published anywhere?): no activation required; draw two, return one of the the two
you drew.
4. Severe nerf: as #3, but requires activation (published anywhere?).

yes, 4 is the official version approved by the author and published like this by the original publisher (dlp) from 2nd edition
onwards.

Ah. (TMG is the only version available in retail game-stores in the US, as far as I am aware.)

Does it trigger during Phase 5? (If so, it's still quite good -- although well behind TMG's versions in
power -- as it offers the chance to activate single-worker spots twice per turn.)
Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:59 am
Author: actaion
so then we have basically 3 variations:
1) dlp version, which enables double activation of 1-worker-actions
2) TMG version, which makes it a better castle (net gain of 1 worker + worker choice)
3) the first edition version (both TMG and dlp), in which the bathhouse has both features, i.e. extra
worker + double activation possibility (even 2-worker-actions in this case), therefore was
overpowered.
Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:03 am
Author: mike18xx
actaion wrote:
2) TMG version, which makes it a better castle (net gain of 1 worker + worker choice)

It may seem like a small difference in rules text, but whether or not the discard must come from the
extras drawn, or the entire draw, represents a drastic difference in probability.
Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:11 am
Author: Gamer_Dog
mike18xx wrote:
actaion wrote:
2) TMG version, which makes it a better castle (net gain of 1 worker + worker choice)

It may seem like a small difference in rules text, but whether or not the discard must come from the extras drawn, or the
entire draw, represents a drastic difference in probability.

Agreed. We play (and will continue to do so), that you draw as per your castle draws, then pull 2 you
set aside, from which you can use 1 and must return the other. My commentary was based on this
version, which may be one of the nerfs discussed around the time people were complaining the
Bathhouse was overpowered. Thus my explicit description of the rule we were using.

In any case, based on the versions, I think both our commentary is quite reasonable. I would suggest
you try the version where you must take 1 of the 2 extra draws. It brings the building more in line with
a powerful, but still within reason, balance.
Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:14 pm
Author: mike18xx
Gamer_Dog wrote:
I would suggest you try the version where you must take 1 of the 2 extra draws.

This is actually the variant I propose when playing.

Quote:
It brings the building more in line with a powerful, but still within reason, balance.

I'm remain undecided on that. I had me own personal high score ever (while still a little "green")
playing with it modified. (I haven't managed to get it the last half-dozen sessions.)

Unmodified TMG, I saw a person cake-walk to over 200 points. There were other mitigating factors: he
was downstream of two noob first-timers while I was on his left, and we played under limited money
rules -- which he sprung on us when it ran out. (That particular game felt like an unpleasant waste of
time, and I would never want to play it again with either of those two rules in effect. I scored a
normally respectable 165, but never felt like I had a chance of catching him. TMG's Bathhouse is
literally "I win!", and restricting money just kills any strategy that isn't break-neck development-track
oriented.

The "discard-from-the-two-extra" moderation doesn't limit the power of the Bathhouse until its owner
has more than five tiles in his bag to draw, and the brutish power of the Bathhouse is usually evident
by turn three. (If you're in the #2 starting position, Bathhouse -> Laboratory is a hideous starting
combination. It may seem like you're behind on turns three and four, but you will slingshot into the
lead like a bat out of hell.)

If the Bathhouse were simplified to just "draw an extra tile" (i.e, Castle +1), IMO it'll still be a very nice
building: You're getting an extra worker every turn of the game thereafter (how many building are you
actually able to use, without an activation cost, every turn? ...very few), and having an extra trader
rather than a soldier may suit your strategy much better in the early/mid-game.

Anything stronger than that, it should be a Level II.

_____

What it's like when you get both the Bathhouse and the Laboratory:

Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:24 pm

Author: Alan Eshelman
This is weird, but I feel like my (Deluxe Kickstarter) version of the game says, in effect:
1. Draw one less character tile than normal and put them in your Market.
2. Draw two more tiles, keeping one for your Market and the other goes back in the bag.

Was that covered in this thread, because I didn't see it if so? I don't think this is an over-powered way
to play the Bathhouse.
Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:30 pm
Author: Jebbie
Alan Eshelman wrote:
1. Draw one less character tile than normal and put them in your Market.

Please point out where this is stated in the rulebook, or quote it. I have not read such a ruling in there
(and yes, I have the deluxe edition).
Fri May 13, 2016 10:08 am
Author: Markwerf
Isn't it just possible to play the following:

turn 1 craftsman, technology tile on farmer on village.

turn 2 craftsman and put 2 castle (leaving blue open). Activate village first put technology tile on castle
then activate castle.

You are allowed right to put technology tile onto a place where you have the 2 other spots occupied
and activate the location the same turn still? If so seems like a decent opening. 2 technology tiles and
a castle upgrade in the first 2 turns which is pretty much effectively 3 more workers early on. As the
village and castle are spots you want to activate a good amount anyway early it seems.
Sat May 21, 2016 12:27 pm
Author: N2xU
Markwerf wrote:
Isn't it just possible to play the following:

turn 1 craftsman, technology tile on farmer on village.

turn 2 craftsman and put 2 castle (leaving blue open). Activate village first put technology tile on castle then activate
castle.

You are allowed right to put technology tile onto a place where you have the 2 other spots occupied and activate the
location the same turn still? If so seems like a decent opening. 2 technology tiles and a castle upgrade in the first 2 turns
which is pretty much effectively 3 more workers early on. As the village and castle are spots you want to activate a good
amount anyway early it seems.

This is not allowed, you can only place the technology tile after passing.
Sat May 21, 2016 1:45 pm
Author: Kortnek
I think that opening with a boatsman is a good idea. The next turn you can buy a knight and a farmer.
The third turn you have seven chips and you can only draw five. If you draw the merchant it is likely
that you can buy another knight. Otherwise you are likely to have merchant and can buy a vilager.
After this point you can probably buy a knight every turn and also have enough chips to draw.
Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:35 pm
Author: OathSworn
Pilgrimage only means you cannot recruit monks. You can absolutely still play monks that turn to take
actions. You just can't get any new monks that turn.
Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:25 pm
Author: Arn Magnusson
I have only played twice, but IMO here is the optimal start:

Turn 1:
- Activate Village > Get craftsman, Tech Tile the farmer in Castle.

Turn 2:
- Activate Village > Get craftsman, Tech Tile the boatman in Village.
(More accurate than Tech Tile on farmer in Village and boatman in Castle, as it allows you to limit your
boatman for more controlled draws as you will be done with the Castle quicker than the Village.)
(The point of holding some characters turn 2 is for big turns 3 and 4.)

Turn 3:
- Activate Village > Get craftsman, Tech Tile the boatman in Farm House.
- Activate Castle
- Activate Town Hall with one craftman. (To control your bag.)
>> Audible #1: If everyone else is going traders, traders, traders start traders this turn instead of
next. I know others suggest Place Tiles are the key, you don't need the most Place Tiles to win, but try
to get at least two - ideal to wait a turn then hoard them yourself, but don't wait this turn at the risk of
coming up empty.
>> Audible #2: In the super unlikely event that the Harvest event comes up on both turns 2 and turns
3, Activate Farm House instead of Castle.

Turns 4 / Turn 5 / Turn 6 - take each of these actions if possible:

- Activate Village > Get traders.
- Activate Castle
- Activate Farm House
(You should be able to active at least two of these three per turn.)
- Active Town Hall a couple times to throw off a knight or farmer or whatever you may see as not
needed depending on what Place Tile strategy you have, to both control your draw as well as to benefit
from the Beneficial Deeds.

Strategic Focus: The only ways to get off quicker than your neighbor is to (A) make Activations require
one less character (B) draw more characters or (C) get lucky. This strategy focuses on being the first
to do A and B while avoiding C.

Trap: Getting Monks or the Place Tiles of Herb Garden or School is a trap. Rather build a machine
through a quick start and controlled draws. Let everyone else gloat about being able to activate any
location they want; meanwhile you may miss a perfect draw or two, but you keep on activating more
each turn than they can dream to!
Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:09 am
Author: Squeek
Keep in mind you can't by a monknuntilnyoube moved off the starting position of the technology track.

Thus this isn't as easy as it first looks.

Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:59 am
Author: Squeek
Keep in mind you can't by a monknuntilnyoube moved off the starting position of the technology track.

Thus this isn't as easy as it first looks.

Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:02 am
Author: CptPugwash
I have what i think is the latest german version (bought by accident) dlp games. This has what
everyone is referring to as the severe nerf version. The farmer is NOT faded, draw 2 return 1 as well as
the original farmer to the bag.
Given that this is the latest version in the original language, one should presume that this is the
current correct version.
Mon May 14, 2018 11:57 am
Author: dcorban
Squeek wrote:
Keep in mind you can't by a monknuntilnyoube moved off the starting position of the technology track.

Gamer_Dog wrote:

Being able activate both village and castle on turn 2 gets you off to a very fast start, gets you to 5 draws, and effectively
a much higher output because you've automated 2 of the most effective actions.

Two year later and no one called out these errors? You can acquire monks while in the starting position
of the technology track. Also, it is impossible to activate both the castle and village on turn two.
I have just recently been playing the game, so this thread is interesting, excluding all the debate
around the bathhouse. The bathhouse was fixed by DLP and the designer in 2014 (farmer activation,
draw two, keep one), so I’m not sure why TMG muddied the waters.

I can’t see any better move than craftsman on turn one. I prefer to use it on the village, since I will
likely be activating the village on turn two. The castle usually isn’t used until turn three at the earliest.
Mon Jul 2, 2018 6:30 pm
Author: dcorban
I’ve since played many more times and I feel the first technology tile is better placed on either the
castle or university. For the village technology, the boatsman is a better target. It’s frustrating to need
a boatsman to acquire a boatsman.

Alternatively, if you plan to start with an early building, place the first technology there if it has a
farmer.

I’m also enjoying the first turn scholar followed by monk.

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:58 pm
Author: czorny
Castle, only castle. The rest follows.
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:10 pm

Orléans » Strategy » A No-Luck Opening and

Analysis
Author: Jingking
A Prototype of No-Luck Opening

First of all, I am not saying that this is the best strategy. Nevertheless, it is a viable strategy and
particularly easy to analyze. This serves a baseline that one can compare with luck-dependent
strategies and evaluate their progress.

Round 1 get a Knight from Castle. Abbreviate this as action sequence C.

Round 2 your market is Boatsman, Craftsman, Farmer, Trader, Knight, abbreviate this as (B,C,F,T,K).
You could have drawn 5 but there was only 4 in the bag. Wasted 1 draw.
Round 2 get a Knight from Castle again. Abbreviate this as action sequence C+C.
Round 3 your market is (B,C,F,T,2K). Could have drawn 6. Wasted 2 draws.
Round 3 use FarmHouse and Wagon. Abbreviate this as action sequence C+C+FW.
Round 4 your market is (B,C,2F,T,2K).
Round 4 use Castle and Guildhall. C+C+FW+CG.
Round 5 market (B,C,2F,T,3K) is full. Drawn 7.

While drawing 7 with (B,C,2F,T,3K), a no-luck engine is already running. At Round 5 you can either
Ship+University SU to catch up on the Development Track, or Wagon+Village VW=BW/CW/TW for
anything you like. Send the 2 extra Knights either to Beneficial Deeds or have them stand by in
Ship/Wagon/Guildhall.

If you get a Boatsman, then you may C+C+FW+CG+BW+CG+CV, reaching 8 draws at Round 8
instead. If you get a Trader, then C+C+FW+CG+TW+CW+CV also reaches 8 draws at Round 8.
Getting a Craftsman and starting to Wheel up your point engine is also a good idea. Remember to send
extra Knights to Beneficial Deeds and any other tiles to stand-by positions so you have enough space
in the market.

Analysis

As a typical economy/development game, any strategy usually goes through 3 stages: (1) Increase
production power, (2) Build point engine, (3) Run the point engine. The two major difference between
strategies are (A) What kind of production/point engine and (B) When do you switch to the next stage.

The No-Luck Knight Rush above is obviously an extreme strategy that it spends a lot of time in the
first stage. Due to that, its point engine is not determined. Most likely you have to choose whatever the
other players have not taken. That is sometimes an advantage, as you can choose to avoid the point
sources that is already highly competed for.

Instead of using Castle, another way to increase production power is to get Craftsman and place
Technologies (Wheels). Be aware that a Castle upgrade gives you an extra tile as long as (i) you have
enough tiles to draw in the bag and (ii) you have enough space in the market to put it. A Wheel only
worths a tile if the action it’s on is activated. On your main board, other than the Village, the action
spaces either will be capped or obsolete that you won’t use in the later half of the game, or are not
immediately useful until later in the game. Thus, a Castle upgrade gives you an almost guaranteed 1
tile per round for the rest of the game, while a Wheel will not be used as often.

Note that in a non-determinist strategy, a Wheel has an extra advantage to make it more likely for a
space to be activated. However in a no-luck strategy, that is never the problem. Thus I consider a
massive-early-wheel strategy inferior than an equivalent Knight Rush, at least on average. One can
usually setup 3 Wheels at Round 5, by that time a Knight Rush also reaches 7 draws. The 7 draws is a
steady 3 more tiles per round until the end of the game, while the 3 Wheels are not. Of course, there
are other differences, so a Knight Rush is not strictly better.

Of course, while “building the point engine”, putting Wheels on Ship/Wagon/Guildhall and/or the key
buildings become a very good idea. Since you will most likely use them every round from that moment
on.

In the above Knight Rush, the first 6 to 8 rounds is not just engine-building. You also pick up a Farmer
and use Wagon 2 to 3 times. That probably avoids large losses from possible Harvest, and also reduce
your chance to be the only one lagging in the Farmer track.

The downside of Knight Rush is that you might have no good point engine to choose anymore. For
example, if you follow it all the way to Round 8, you might not be able to use the University more than
2 or 3 times, which severely limits your Development Track. If good point-generating buildings also run
out, you have to rely on getting Goods from both the Farmer track and Ship/Wagon. If all the taxation
events are late, you will pay a lot. But these variations are just why this game is fun.

If you play with a 12-round variant (which I personally prefer), I think going all the way to 8 draws on
Round 8 is obviously unwise. That’s just a general lesson for any strategy. If the game is shorter, less
engine building and more engine using.

A Luck-Depending Variant

Instead of a totally deterministic opening, one could do B+CF to a Round 3 that draws 5 from
(2B,C,2F,T,K). There is a good chance that you can Castle again on Round 3, which then put you back
into a no-luck situation. B+CF+C+CF leads to a deterministic Round 5, drawing 7 with 2 steps on the
Farmer Track. You are very likely in the lead and can reasonably maintain that for a while due to your
extra Boatsman.
Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:14 am
Author: dirkske
Maybe you've forgotten bout the pest (where you remove one of your workers) ??
In our last game the three pest tiles came in the five first rounds !!
That could mess a lot with your strategy !!!
Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:26 am
Author: Jingking
Thanks for reminding me about the Pest. That is actually another strength of this no-luck opening.
Remember that:
1. 4 starting tiles are immune to the Pest.
2. Most of the Knights you get are not essential.
3. You have absolute control on what goes into your bag.
Thus this no-luck opening is almost unaffected by the Pest.

For example, assuming you plan to do C+C+FW+CG, the only time to worry about the Pest is by the
end of Round 3. The only tile you don't want to lose is that second Farmer, which only goes in the Bag
with 5 other pieces. So there is only a 1/6 chance for that to happen. Even if that happens, you can
still use the Castle on Round 4, so the only loss is 1 less trading post, which is almost nothing in the
beginning of the game.

If you were really really worried, remember that you know the Pest is coming up. You could have
done C+C+C at Round 3 instead, which makes you absolutely unaffected by the Pest.

Later Rounds you will have even more flexibilities.

Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:12 pm
Author: actaion
Jingking wrote:
A Prototype of No-Luck Opening
One can usually setup 3 Wheels at Round 5, by that time a Knight Rush also reaches 7 draws. The 7 draws is a steady 3
more tiles per round until the end of the game, while the 3 Wheels are not.

Yet, if you get 3 wheels in the first 5 rounds, you can get also knights to 6 draws at the same time.
That's what I usually play. 6 draws + 3 wheels seems better to me than 7 draws but no wheels. (but
this includes luck)

Have you tried out your idea in practise, and to what result?
Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:15 pm
Author: Jingking
actaion wrote:
Yet, if you get 3 wheels in the first 5 rounds, you can get also knights to 6 draws at the same time.
That's what I usually play. 6 draws + 3 wheels seems better to me than 7 draws but no wheels. (but this includes luck)

Have you tried out your idea in practise, and to what result?

*Noticed a notation problem. Taking B/C/T from Village should be noted as VB/VC/VT to avoid
confusion between Craftsman and Castle.

I am not sure what exact sequence you have in mind. If you want to combine with Wheels earlier,
there is also a no-luck sequence.

Round 1: Village-Craftsman, Wheel on Village Farmer, VCvf

Round 2: Village-Craftsman, Wheel on Castle Boatsman, VCvf+VCcb
Round 3: Castle, VCvf+VCcb+C
Round 4: Castle and Village, Cvf+Ccb+C+CV.

Indeed this can be VCvf+VCcb+C+CVC, with no luck, reaching 6 draws and 3 Wheels on Round 5.
Compare with the Knight Rush, C+C+VFW+CG, this is even more extreme on building production
power. The extra draw means 1 Tile for the remaining 14 Rounds. The combination of 3 Wheels will
probably be used slightly more than that.

The Wheel on Castle can only be used 3 more times at most. The one on Village will see more usage.
Hopefully the 3rd Wheel goes to Ship/Wagon/Guildhall, which becomes part of the point engine that
get used every Round in the later half of the game. Thus by sacrificing 1 Farmer Track, 2 Goods, and 1
Trading Post, this achieves higher production power. If (1) Harvest did not come up, (2) you are not
the only player left behind on the Farmer Track, (3) you can indeed go Castle 3 more times, I will say
this is doing slightly better than the Knight Rush. All those conditions of course depends a lot on what
your opponents are doing.

I personally do not have sufficient experience to judge performance in general. My only actual
experience was with VB+CF+C+CF, which was very successful because I ended up leading the Farmer
Track the entire game. But I’ll say that is more of an exception.
Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:47 pm
Author: Eleon
It is not a bad variant. My only issue I feel is left out is buying buildings (sometimes 2) in the first 3
turns of the game. Then I move into the as little luck as I can get away with by going for castle,
monks, and killing off a lot of the other tokens.

The best buildings in all of the games I have planed have all been gone by the end of turn 3 (and
sometimes by the end of turn 2). Since a good building can generate 3-5 points a turn if set up
correctly, missing out on those buildings will lose you the game every time.

In the games I have played a player that did not buy 2 buildings in the first 3 rounds has never won.
 Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:05 pm
Author: actaion
Eleon wrote:
It is not a bad variant. My only issue I feel is left out is buying buildings (sometimes 2) in the first 3 turns of the game.
Then I move into the as little luck as I can get away with by going for castle, monks, and killing off a lot of the other
tokens.

The best buildings in all of the games I have planed have all been gone by the end of turn 3 (and sometimes by the end
of turn 2). Since a good building can generate 3-5 points a turn if set up correctly, missing out on those buildings will lose
you the game every time.

In the games I have played a player that did not buy 2 buildings in the first 3 rounds has never won.

Yes, you will miss out teh best buildings. Yet, teh people who buy 2 buildings in the first 2 rounds, miss
out on production boosting, so they will have lesse actions.
There are many buildings which can generate a lot of points: hospital, tradepost buidling, brokat, Wool,
wagon, brewery, windmill, powder tower and maybe more. So there will be some left for you. Also you
can go heavy on farmer track or simply trading posts + developement.
Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:31 pm
Author: Eleon
actaion wrote:
Eleon wrote:
It is not a bad variant. My only issue I feel is left out is buying buildings (sometimes 2) in the first 3 turns of the game.
Then I move into the as little luck as I can get away with by going for castle, monks, and killing off a lot of the other
tokens.

The best buildings in all of the games I have planed have all been gone by the end of turn 3 (and sometimes by the end
of turn 2). Since a good building can generate 3-5 points a turn if set up correctly, missing out on those buildings will
lose you the game every time.

In the games I have played a player that did not buy 2 buildings in the first 3 rounds has never won.

Yes, you will miss out teh best buildings. Yet, teh people who buy 2 buildings in the first 2 rounds, miss out on production
boosting, so they will have lesse actions.
There are many buildings which can generate a lot of points: hospital, tradepost buidling, brokat, Wool, wagon, brewery,
windmill, powder tower and maybe more. So there will be some left for you. Also you can go heavy on farmer track or
simply trading posts + developement.

In the games I have played a lot of these buildings are already gone. I have picked hospital as my first
building many times as it generates a lot of points for doing something I have to do anyway.

Are you playing 5 player games? I almost always play 5 player games so that might explain how the
good buildings disappear so fast. The wagon is strong for sure, but in a 5 player game you get less
"value" out of it as so many goods and trade post places go so fast.

I do not believe you really fall that behind in actions. You are two turns behind, and over the course of
the game that might equal maybe 3 more actions (as everyone builds up actions from turn 3 on), the
"value" of the actions taken is a lot higher for the group of people with the buildings that earn more
points.

You can also have your cake and eat it too, with the bathhouse. You build a building that gets you
more actions, and then you can build your best level 2, and you are actually more or less even with the
people that went straight for actions only and ahead more often than not in a turn or two.

I am not 100% disagreeing with you. I have just never seen someone in a 5 player game skip building
buildings the first two turns of the game win.
Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:18 pm
Author: Jingking
Eleon wrote:
You can also have your cake and eat it too, with the bathhouse. You build a building that gets you more actions, and then
you can build your best level 2, and you are actually more or less even with the people that went straight for actions only
and ahead more often than not in a turn or two.
I am not 100% disagreeing with you. I have just never seen someone in a 5 player game skip building buildings the first
two turns of the game win.

Well, let me chime in a bit on this. First of all, I play the more balanced bathhouse that does not net
you a tile. You spend 1 tile to gain 1. Sometimes a better tile since you can select from 2, but still no
net tile gain.

Secondly, whether a "good building" gives you a more valuable action, that can be explicitly calculated.
Hospital is also my favourite 1st level building, so let's take that as an example.

Since you want to focus on building in the first 2 turns, I assume that there is no guarantee for a
extremely high development track. In a 5er, I assume you reach level 4. That means Hospital gives
you 4 points for 2 tiles.

So, the question becomes: Is getting 2 points per tile difficult? It is actually not. If you max out
the Farmer Track, it is reasonable to assume that you lead it for 12 to 15 rounds. Your gain from all
the Goods and the leading bonus can be 21+15 = 36 points, for merely 16 tiles spent. This is more
efficient than 2 points per tile. Well, you do have to send some farmers to the Beneficial Deeds, and
those actions are likely less efficient. But after averaging together, it is close to 2 points per tile spent.

I do not disagree that some buildings provide efficient point engines. However it is quite an
overstatement to say buildings are the only way to build a nice point engine. It's even more far-
stretched to say that getting them in the first 2 Rounds is more essential than increasing production
power.
Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:06 am
Author: mike18xx
The problem with the knight-rush-from-turn-1 strategy is that, yes, you're getting more workers drawn
-- BUT they're all *knights*! I.e., you'd have your four starters and three knights after turn 3.

If there's a string of several cloth tiles along wagon routes near Orleans that you'd like to claim "dibs"
on by jumping first, I can see doing this, but otherwise lack of variety will gum up the works.
Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:19 am
Author: mike18xx
Jingking wrote:
I have just never seen someone in a 5 player game skip building buildings the first two turns of the game win.

I've won my last three games in a row, all with scores 160pts or more, two of them five-players
games, and did not take buildings my first two turns. (I would say that it's difficult to win if you never
buy any buildings...but I managed to do once.)

The synergistic complexities of this game are deep, and there are many, many good combinations of
buildings (just that not all of those are as obvious as, say, "Wool" building + ten wool just sitting there
= 40pts), and they are not all going to be exhausted in the first few turns.

Even the maligned Hayrick that few ever buy is a decent building with a goods-hoarding strategy.
Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:38 am
Author: John Weber

One problem I see with this "Knight Rush" strategy is what could happen if the Round 2 event is
Harvest (lose 1 good or discard 5 coins). Say the other players go Farmer in either round 1 or 2, that
means the player pursing this strategy loses all his starting coins to the Harvest event, then is behind
on the Farmer track and must suffer a round 3 penalty due to the lack of a coin for being in sole last
place on the Farmer track.

NOTE: the odds of this happening are roughly 18% (3 in 17).

In other words, even with the "No Luck" strategy, players have to be flexible and adapt to the various
events.
Fri Mar 4, 2016 4:42 pm
Author: VeteranVandal
Even if the thread is kinda old, I like the idea behind this opening, even if I don't think I love the
opening itself, for reasons already pointed out. Draws are only one aspect of what I consider a bit more
valuable, which is number of actions per turn - as I'm trying to find the most efficient way to make
moves that lead to more moves to compare the "speeds" of some openings with the opening that
maximizes that.

Having to fill 3 spaces in most actions is a price I'll not want to pay all game, but as I found the forums
do not have a lot of tests of this idea - just the groupthink, which can guide you towards some truths -
by calculating points per turn or by just stating some principle the game follows - versus saving 1
activation per space, for instance (which is hard to do in a normal game, but can be done in a test).
Unfortunately something better, like a database of moves and openings, isn't available just yet, so
tests are the second best thing I can do.

And of course, actions per turn is not the most important aspect for the game. Points per turn are, but
they are also the worst one to calculate - and can only be done from turn to turn and game per game
basis, to be honest.

Unfortunately you are maximizing drawing from the bag, because I think this opening would be a bit
better with at least one trip to the university before round 5, but this is also a good opening.

In fact I'm trying to do a "No-Luck" Opening that maximizes actions (instead of draws) that has some
parts of it similar to your opening (but without needing to end with 3K, even if sending them to deeds
is very profitable). As I unfortunately do not have a physical copy of the game (so I do it part pen and
paper, part in computer testing), I haven't written down the opening yet that gives me the most
actions, but it seems somewhat close to yours (having a bit less knights by round 5 to allow more
actions, but it seems that you'll need at least 2 knight moves before turn 5).

Some events might obviously ruin it, but the idea, for me, is not really doing this as a strategy per se -
even if that seems viable. It is doing an opening which, while not doing what the game REALLY is about
(AKA maximizing number of points per turn you can make throughout the game), it maximizes a
simpler aspect of it (maximizing draws as fast as possible).

I intend to make this into a thread in the future, but generally speaking I think the game has two
important "quantities": actions and points - points I divide in coins, goods, and development - the
latter the worst thing to quantify as, generally speaking, you can't guarantee that you'll end up in 6
development every game - and most likely won't or won't be as worthy as you'd expect.

Roughly (nuance would be necessary because of buildings and other complicating factors, as I won't
include trade houses and traveling in this analysis) speaking I separate the professions in two groups:
saving actions and making points.

Professions that save you actions are the craftsman, the knight and the merchant (most buildings -
with few exceptions - require 2 or one professions to be activated, saving you 1 or 2 character to be
used elsewhere). Sometimes monks will save you an action as they can allow you 1 more action for
optimizing your placement, but that won't happen 100% of the time - sometimes they'll allow you
more efficiency in points per turns as well, but that is, again, circumstantial. This is basically the
reason

Professions that give you points are the scholar (late game points through development, so indirectly
contributing to points), the boatman (through coins and sometimes buildings), the farmer (through
both coins and goods), and (trader) merchant (generally indirectly because of buildings, and most
buildings, with few exceptions, will give you points directly or indirectly).

It seems there is another opening that will have the same "speed", but I need to finish testing at least
9 turns of both (and maybe all turns, just to use them as benchmark against other strategies I'm
trying to search for - stupid stuff, like not going for development at all, no buildings (which I don't
think is possible), a monk centered strat, etc.).

I don't think the fastest strategies will be the best strategies pointwise, but I want to see if there are
fundamental concepts in them that I can apply in general. I'm not sure luck is as bad as people portray
in the forums tho, so I kinda want to discover about that as well (if there is a sweet spot, or if the
deterministic game is always better - the constant trashing seems to restrict you a little too much in
the moves you make, as you have to combine your current and your next move, and there is also the
problem of losing actions because of your unutilized ability to draw an additional character, or because
you have to use a character in the good deeds that would give you probabilistically an extra action). I
do think having room to improvise might be tied to placing a bit of luck in your game, and maybe you
kinda have to take 2 monks in the bag to counterbalance that instead of doing what the forums seems
to generally agree on, AKA, monks are always a bad move because you waste 2 characters in one
activation to get a character that doesn't (usually) save you actions or give you points directly.

Well, I'll stop my ramblings here (getting too long already), but I just wanted to say your opening
seems to touch one very interesting aspect of the game I don't see discussed too much.
Tue May 8, 2018 5:35 pm

Orléans » Strategy » Beneficial deeds board

Author: johnnyg007
Curious to know the different strategies that are used for this. In the 4 games I have played, it always
seems to really sing toward the end of the game as players don't want to burn their followers early.
What are some tactics that would be used for this board?
Sun Apr 8, 2018 3:06 pm
Author: AernoutMJC
When you get rid of followers early, you are not burning followers, you are finetuning what you have
and making sure you have a reliable and useful draw.
Sun Apr 8, 2018 5:25 pm
Author: dklx3
And in addition, you get best choice of early rewards.
Mon Apr 9, 2018 4:26 am
Author: CashLiam
I would recommend getting the Orléans: Trade & Intrigue expansion. The new beneficial deeds board is
outstanding. So many more interesting decisions to be made.
Mon Apr 9, 2018 5:17 am
Author: johnnyg007
dklx3 wrote:
And in addition, you get best choice of early rewards.

elaborate please.

CashLiam wrote:
I would recommend getting the Orléans: Trade & Intrigue expansion. The new beneficial deeds board is outstanding. So
many more interesting decisions to be made.

Wow! that's a game changer, I may just get it for the BD board alone.
Mon Apr 9, 2018 1:21 pm
Author: truekid
johnnyg007 wrote:
dklx3 wrote:
And in addition, you get best choice of early rewards.

elaborate please.

Every time you send a follower to the beneficial deeds board, you get the reward shown for whatever
section they're placed in. Some sections have better rewards, and so tend to be filled up sooner
(especially the slots requiring less-used workers, or workers that people tend to pick up lots of, like
craftsmen, farmers, and knights).
Mon Apr 9, 2018 8:39 pm
Author: kamchatka
I'm only one game in, so take my commentary with a bucket of salt, but the beneficial deeds board
seems all but useless with two - it takes so many workers to actually fulfill one of the orders that with
only two people doing the fine-tuning, it's going to be tough to get the right mix. All the short deed
tracks take valuable wild (and potentially wild) tiles like scholars and monks, and I found myself
wishing for a separate board for fewer players.

I'm curious about how much play the deed tracks get with more experienced people who frequently
play 2p - anyone?
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:58 am
Author: johnnyg007
kamchatka wrote:
I'm only one game in, so take my commentary with a bucket of salt, but the beneficial deeds board seems all but useless
with two - it takes so many workers to actually fulfill one of the orders that with only two people doing the fine-tuning, it's
going to be tough to get the right mix. All the short deed tracks take valuable wild (and potentially wild) tiles like scholars
and monks, and I found myself wishing for a separate board for fewer players.

I'm curious about how much play the deed tracks get with more experienced people who frequently play 2p - anyone?

Toward the end of the game in 2p with just burning tokens to the ever important citizen tiles. Not sure
if you have had the chance, but take a look at the board for trade and intrigued board. From what I
hear, you never play without it once you have played with it.

I have learned that burning certain workers can be used to tailor your bag-draw.

I also find a VERY deep yet important timing element with it as well. This can depend also on player
turn order.

I do understand your frustration with the base game BdB with 2.

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:35 am
Author: SgtTenor
johnnyg007 wrote:
kamchatka wrote:
I'm only one game in, so take my commentary with a bucket of salt, but the beneficial deeds board seems all but
useless with two - it takes so many workers to actually fulfill one of the orders that with only two people doing the fine-
tuning, it's going to be tough to get the right mix. All the short deed tracks take valuable wild (and potentially wild) tiles
like scholars and monks, and I found myself wishing for a separate board for fewer players.

I'm curious about how much play the deed tracks get with more experienced people who frequently play 2p - anyone?

Toward the end of the game in 2p with just burning tokens to the ever important citizen tiles. Not sure if you have had the
chance, but take a look at the board for trade and intrigued board. From what I hear, you never play without it once you
have played with it.

I have learned that burning certain workers can be used to tailor your bag-draw.

I also find a VERY deep yet important timing element with it as well. This can depend also on player turn order.

I do understand your frustration with the base game BdB with 2.

That's what my fiancee and I did in our first play. in the last round or 2 we basically sent the followers
to alchemy and draw 2 to place other followers in the town hall and grab spots to get citizens and other
bonuses to gain victory points.
Fri May 4, 2018 6:47 pm
Orléans » Strategy » Opening Moves
Author: steveg700
It feels safe to say that place tiles are powerful, and some notably so, and thus trader can only be
ignored at grave peril. This can lend itself to a mad trader rush in my experience.

However, personal experience is limited, so in the interest of avoiding the presumptuous contention
that this is the game's de facto opening move (I.e. the Puerto-Rico equivalent of settle-quarry), I'm
just going to ask you guys what in your experience are the most common/effective opening moves in
your plays.
Mon Jan 9, 2017 12:29 am
Author: Rachelisapoopy
My group plays with the variant where there's only a number of place tiles equal to the number of
players plus one available for grabs at any time, meaning the place tiles are less of a priority. I find
that if you don't do this, there is absolutely nothing stopping players from doing the exact same
strategy every single game (unless someone steals your strategy).

With this in mind, the usual openers we do always involves turn 1 Village to get a carpenter, and then
covering up somewhere. This can be the fisherman on the Castle action or the fisherman on the Farm
House. Getting the carpenter gear down somewhere is just so strong that it beats out the other actions
in my eyes. Of course, if there's an awesome place up for grabs, then you gotta do that first (for
instance, the herb garden is great fun and creates a cool game where you're the only player that
monopolizes the fishermen).

Anyways, try this variant the next time you play. I definitely feel doing something like this is far more
enjoyable than having all 20+ places up for grabs from turn 1 or 2, as it gives you too many options.
Mon Jan 9, 2017 9:05 am
Author: danissimus
Rachelisapoopy wrote:
the usual openers we do always involves turn 1 Village to get a carpenter, and then covering up somewhere. This can be
the fisherman on the Castle action or the fisherman on the Farm House.

according to the rules: "The first Technology Tile you place in a game must replace a Farmer"

it is also depicted above the first box of the craftsman row.

Mon Jan 9, 2017 9:54 am

Author: steveg700
Rachelisapoopy wrote:
My group plays with the variant where there's only a number of place tiles equal to the number of players plus one
available for grabs at any time, meaning the place tiles are less of a priority. I find that if you don't do this, there is
absolutely nothing stopping players from doing the exact same strategy every single game (unless someone steals your
strategy).

If only a few place tiles are available at once, how do you handle the division between I and II tiles?
Mon Jan 9, 2017 3:14 pm
Author: Jonezy
Been a while since I played Orléans, but I like to start with a fisherman and then get a farmer and a
knight on turn 2. It gives a good flow and leave your options open. But everyone says tech tiles are the
way to go, so don't trust me completely...

Feel like all the buildings should be available, buy maybe leave some out for variety now and again. I
have actually never played with the bathhouse, because of the issues with it and I guess you can take
some buildings out that always get picked up like the school to see what happens then.
Mon Jan 9, 2017 7:46 pm
Author: steveg700
Some place tiles are better than others, and it seems almost a flaw that they aren't level III buildings.

For this reason, some will always be beelined--but then again, if you use the game's suggested option
for experienced players, then those same ones will always be excluded.

So, the idea of creating an offer is appealing to me, but seems clunky in practice of how much space it
would take to create separate I and II offers. The game's already a table hog.
Mon Jan 9, 2017 8:15 pm
Author: Kaiyoot
I read in one of these forums of someone doing a tile draft prior to starting the game. Select a fixed
number of random tiles leaving some out of the game and then start a tile draft. You could then build
only the tiles in your possession. I have not yet tried it but it's an interesting idea. This would affect
your opening move depending on what tiles you drafted.
Mon Jan 9, 2017 8:26 pm
Author: InfoCynic
Tech tile turn one covering village or university are popular in my group. Then activate both next turn,
with some diversity in what you take from village, often another craftsman to cover the fisherman in
castle or a trader to grab Bathhouse if you're first player is another popular choice.
Mon Jan 9, 2017 8:57 pm
Author: dklx3
We are certainly not experts yet, we are seeing several different Turn 1 openings as we explore
different strategies:
- Brown w/technology
- Grey, with turn 2 monk, or pushing grey to get the first two people on the track and push toward
max grey
- Red with quick wagon or ship if there as a 'best route' obvious on the goods board
- White for early farm advantage and 12-15 point by end game

and of course

- Black for favorite buildings

Cheers
Mon Jan 9, 2017 9:45 pm
Author: SergeantSuj
steveg700 wrote:
Rachelisapoopy wrote:
My group plays with the variant where there's only a number of place tiles equal to the number of players plus one
available for grabs at any time, meaning the place tiles are less of a priority. I find that if you don't do this, there is
absolutely nothing stopping players from doing the exact same strategy every single game (unless someone steals your
strategy).

If only a few place tiles are available at once, how do you handle the division between I and II tiles?

What I do is shuffle the I & II piles, then make 5 ( or "players + 1") piles using the IIs, then place the
Is evenly on top of them. So u less one pile gets dug into first, you're pretty much guaranteed that no
one has a II as an option with their first merchant.

But I love drafting, so maybe next play I'll try a pre-game draft among the players, and then players
are only able to build the buildings they drafted, as mentioned elsewhere ?
Sun May 21, 2017 7:56 am
Author: KnobleSavage
SergeantSuj wrote:
...you're pretty much guaranteed that no one has a II as an option with their first merchant.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but you don't have that option anyway. The first building you
get with a merchant must be a Level 1 building. It's the rules and printed right on the board.
Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:33 pm
Orléans » Strategy » Help me beat Trading
Posat + Dev Track
Author: Buggy
So I've played a number of 2, 4, and 5 player games of Orleans lately, with a variety of groups, and
I'm having trouble seeing anything that works better than getting a bunch of trading posts then getting
high on the dev track (usually with the help of a building or two).

The game seems to really favor that. You get resources moving from town to town. You get coins for
the development track. Two of the events help people who have lots of trading posts and or
development points. One of the events punishes people who try to get their points from resources, and
just money is nowhere near strong enough.

Am I missing something? Is there a strategy that can routinely get 130+ points without going trading
posts/dev track, or is that supposed to be the main strategy of the game, and the game is more about
positioning yourself to maximize that and maybe picking up a secondary vp source along the way (a
building that grants resources or money, or going full on Farmer, or strongly pushing Benevolent
deeds)?
Mon Dec 7, 2015 11:12 pm
Author: truekid
In most games where there's a "multiplier" aspect in scoring, I assume that's the primary path that
most players should pursue, and the bigger distinction in play comes more from efficiently leveraging
your secondary paths while pursuing the primary one. In Orleans pursuing trading stations is certainly
fruitful, and a good base strategy- BUT there are definitely ways to carve out the majority of your
score from different things.

For example:
Especially at 4 and 5 players, take a look at the starting board and see if there are "high value" paths
around the board. Trading Stations requires 3 separate kinds of actions- movement, dropping stations,
and increasing your development track. Look at the point values attributed to each, and you can
definitely find an "average points per dude" expectation. If you start moving around the board slightly
earlier than the other players along paths with 3/4/5 point goods, you should not only be above the
curve for dudes-to-points, but you're also lowering their curve even further when they actually start
traveling. This makes doing things like jamming on a money or goods building much more viable. This
doesn't even have to be started particularly early, since the trade-stationers have to move-drop-move-
drop, and you only have to move to accomplish this.

There are other approaches too, but I think the "snipe the good goods" plan is one that often gets
overlooked because people associate the movement purely with the Trade Stations, when the
movement has very good return on its own.
Tue Dec 8, 2015 1:35 am
Author: emptyset
Buggy wrote:
Is there a strategy that can routinely get 130+ points without going trading posts/dev track?

The development track is the single most important thing in the game. I don't think you can neglect it
and win.
Tue Dec 8, 2015 7:53 am
Author: Buggy
Yeah, both the posts so far seem to indicate that the game is about moving around the board (ideally
building trading posts) and the development track.

It's kind of a shame. Orleans felt to me like a game that had several big paths to victory, but it is
turning into a game that has one big path to victory with several smaller branches.

This doesn't make it bad, per se, but it does make it different from what I wanted it to be.

It also means that when teaching new players, I absolutely need to caution them that they cannot
afford to ignore the development track and the map.
Tue Dec 8, 2015 3:18 pm
Author: emptyset
Buggy wrote:
It is turning into a game that has one big path to victory with several smaller branches.

Think of it this way: In Dominion, the single most important thing is to get the provinces (or colonies).

Also, you don't have to max it out, you just shouldn't completely ignore it. It's not like the winner is
automatically the one who is higher on the development track. Orléans isn't a victory point salad game,
even though it looks like it.

I think mentioning the development track when explaining the game is a good idea! On my first play, I
did neglect it and even though I didn't get totally destroyed, I lost by some margin.
Tue Dec 8, 2015 3:47 pm
Author: N2xU
Buggy wrote:
Yeah, both the posts so far seem to indicate that the game is about moving around the board (ideally building trading
posts) and the development track.

It's kind of a shame. Orleans felt to me like a game that had several big paths to victory, but it is turning into a game
that has one big path to victory with several smaller branches.

This doesn't make it bad, per se, but it does make it different from what I wanted it to be.

It also means that when teaching new players, I absolutely need to caution them that they cannot afford to ignore the
development track and the map.

Please also read this thread:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1471597/can-development...
Tue Dec 8, 2015 3:51 pm
Author: Cardboardjunkie
I did fairly well in my first attempt to ignore guildhalls. I finished with 101 points without a single
building or citizen. In hindsight, my opening turns were atrocious. I think I could streamline the
opening without committing to the strategy, and then when it was clear I could go for it, continue with
the plan. I don't think I could ever get 150+, but 140 is probably possible. You also have to consider
the starting layout of goods. Are there more on the map or in reserve?
Tue Dec 8, 2015 10:30 pm
Author: actaion
You can neglect the trading post to some extend. I've seen people win with over 150 points (4p-game)
with just 4 trading posts at the end.
On the developement track you seem to need to get to level 4 at least.

I think it makes some sense that you cannot completely ingnore both apsects. On the one hand,
without any travelling at all, the interaction woudl fall to a minimum. Secondly, it makes sens
thematically, that your tribe cannot win withgout any developement.

Still you can decide if getting tradings post and developement are yoru main areas, or just sidelines.
With some of the bonus building there come even more other strategies in to play.
Tue Dec 8, 2015 11:40 pm
Author: joekid
Just played last night (4 player). Did not move up once on the book track (no grey or gold workers).
Built no houses and collected no citizens. I went farm track to the end and red track to draw 7. used
the wagon and horse wagon with techs on them to fly around map and collect goods. I also had the
wool place and the depot place tile. In the end collected 87 points with goods. $31. 5 sets of different
goods for a depot bonus of 25. total 143. I won.
Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:59 pm
Author: Cardboardjunkie
joekid wrote:
Just played last night (4 player). Did not move up once on the book track (no grey or gold workers). Built no houses and
collected no citizens. I went farm track to the end and red track to draw 7. used the wagon and horse wagon with techs
on them to fly around map and collect goods. I also had the wool place and the depot place tile. In the end collected 87
 points with goods. $31. 5 sets of different goods for a depot bonus of 25. total 143. I won.

How was your initial board set up? Maybe my mistake was getting the Tailor Shop first, which requires
Scholars. So you must have had the majority of Brocade on the map?
Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:51 pm
Author: joekid
I was able to get 4 brocade from the map and 1 from final farm space.
Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:58 pm
Author: 3dicebombers
Cardboardjunkie wrote:

How was your initial board set up? Maybe my mistake was getting the Tailor Shop first, which requires Scholars. So you
must have had the majority of Brocade on the map?

I'm also a big fan of putting gears on scholar spots so I can send my scholars to the town hall. And if
you gear the Tailor shop, you just need a tradesman (black worker) to produce the cloth. Same applies
to the wool building; if it only uses one worker it is super efficient.
Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:10 pm
Author: Cardboardjunkie
3dicebombers wrote:
Cardboardjunkie wrote:

How was your initial board set up? Maybe my mistake was getting the Tailor Shop first, which requires Scholars. So you
must have had the majority of Brocade on the map?

I'm also a big fan of putting gears on scholar spots so I can send my scholars to the town hall. And if you gear the Tailor
shop, you just need a tradesman (black worker) to produce the cloth. Same applies to the wool building; if it only uses one
worker it is super efficient.

Yep. I realized that too late in my game. If I had taken another Craftsmen early enough to cover the
Scholar on the Tailor shop, then I would have been able to complete both the Brocade and the Monk
nearly every turn. I also had the Wool building, but that wasn't nearly as bad.
Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:44 pm
Author: Sir Ransellot
Mike, I can't help you. I've been struggling with this myself. I gave a particular strategy some serious
thought after my last game, and I just tried it tonight. I have tried to win without getting very high on
the dev track, favoring a unique path to victory, and I have not found one that tops the dev track,
which is how every victory has been gained in my group.

Here is what I did...

1. Took trader, received winery.

2. Took trader, received laboratory.
3. Took craftsman, tech tiled lab.
4. Took Trader, received horse cart, tech tiled farmer on winery.

After these initial moves, I tech tiled the knight spots on road movement and building guildhouses. I
received enough knights to draw 7 dudes a turn. Any knights drawn were sent to public works board.

I started cranking out decent points earlier than my opponents. By midgame, I only had 7 dudes in my
bag, I was drawing all 7 dudes a turn,
and I was using them in the following method:

1 trader on horsecart.
1 trader on winery.
1 trader on the 4pt wool bldg.
1 farmer and 1 craftsman on building guildhouses spot.
1 trader and 1 farmer on wagon movement.

This formula allowed me to move, build a guildhouse, move again, and create a wool and a wine EVERY
turn. I wasted no turns getting monks--I didn't need them. I got 2 scholars and dumped them and a
few other guys on the public works board to thin out my bag asap, while getting to level 3 on the dev
track.

By the end of the game, I had an enormous pile of goods, which included every single wool and wine
token that wasn't on the map. I also had a slew of guildhouses--but they were only worth 3pts a piece.

I'm not sure that I can play Orleans any more efficiently than this. A guildhouse, and 4 goods every
turn, seemed like a sure fired victory, and the other players said so during the game. I had no wasted
actions, I never got an unlucky draw. Every turn I knew what dudes I would be drawing, and I was
using my dudes to great efficiency.

I got slaughtered.

My final score was around 147, and I was proud of that. This isn't my highest score, but it was my
tightest play--which is telling. The victor, (who did not spend time developing a strategy beforehand,
who had several unlucky draws, and who had several bad plays in which he cursed himself) won by
taking a lot of scholars, shooting up the dev track, sending dudes to the public works board, and
building guildhalls. He scored 37 points more than I, with his admittedly sub-par performance.

I haven't been so disheartened by a defeat in a long, long time.

This dev track recipe is pretty much the same way everyone is earning their victory now, and I
stubbornly refuse to follow this path. I think the problem is that this game looks and feels like it has
multiple paths to victory, but it really doesn't.

Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:33 am

Author: clongstr72
I like the idea of this strategy because I prefer unusual paths to victory too, but i'm not sure all those
steps are legally correct.

You have to put down a technology tile on a farmer for the first use of the craftsman. That extra step
severely slows down this approach.

I used a similar strategy but incorporated a single monk. I ended up with 139 but still lost to the dev
track approach (144)
Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:41 pm
Author: Buggy
So I believe one of the problems is that the events force you to go this route. Of the six events, fully
half of them support the trading post/dev track:

Income - gain coins equal to your stars on the dev track

Trading Day - gain coins equal to your trading posts
Taxes - Lose a coin for every three resources you have round down.

This means that if you go the resource route, you are hit hardest by taxes and gain the least benefit
from Income and Trading Day. My gut tells me that was done to balance the game during playtesting,
that resources were too powerful, but if so, they went too far in the other direction.

I'd like to try removing one of each event and adding two of the following three events (giving the
same number of rounds):
- Market Day: Gain a coin for each different type of resource you have.
- Census: Pay a coin for each citizen you own.
- Market Stall: Each player may buy a resource for one coin less than the vp benefit of the resource
(starting with first player and going clockwise)

I don't have Invasion, so I don't know how close any of these are to the new events in Invasion.
I'd also like to make the Tavern worth 7 points instead of 5. I tried a Tavern strategy and was able to
get it to pay off thrice at the end of the game, but other than that one game, I have never seen
anyone even consider the tavern. (I still lost the tavern strategy game to someone who went trading
post/dev track).

What do people think?

Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:55 pm
Author: jepmn
I've been thinking a lot on this as well. My first two plays, I went purely with the dev track approach
and clobbered all opponents both times. The last two games I've tried to steer clear. My last game was
the most successful at 115 points, but I was still beaten by another player with 145 points.

I think you're right on the event tiles. They actively reward a high development strategy and punish a
high resource one. I wonder how a game would play if you completely ignored the events. Maybe leave
the plague in for the mechanic of returning previously exhausted worker tiles to the board.

It's also a bit compounded by the mechanic of the lowest farmers losing no coins if they're tied. Getting
farmers is a good way to get resources, but if one person shoots up the track and at least two others
stay at the same spot, those players never lose the coin. I think maybe they should ALL lose the coin.
Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:39 pm
Author: Buggy
I've been fiddling around with the events and buildings and yesterday I was able to win with a pure
resource strategy.

It involved using the Hayrick and Lair to get a total of 6 buildings, including the laboratory and then
gearing everything. I then moved around the board collecting resources, grabbed a bunch of farmers,
and used the buildings to clear the supply of cloth and wool. I also was able to get a nice bonus from
the depot as I ended up with at least three of each resources.

I won with about 135 points, but I think that if my wife had pursued a pure trading post/dev track
strategy, she would have won. And my win was tainted by the fiddling I did to the game to make such
a win possible. I mean, I reduced the number of events to two each and added three new events
specifically to help a resource strategy and I still ended up with a close win after many losses. The
trading post/dev track is that strong (or I'm that bad at the game, both are likely).
Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:55 pm
Author: jepmn
My loss last time was in no small part due to another player snagging the building that makes brocade
before I could. And they really cranked through the stuff, producing one almost every turn.

I also did't help myself by the fact that we play with a building market rather than a "pick whatever
you want from the deck" approach. Means I have to play with what's available.

Of course, the "pick what you want" method is extremely strong for the dev track, as you can get the
building that makes scholars into monks.
Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:39 am
Author: drunkenKOALA
If you are moving around empty routes to build trading posts without picking up any goods, that's only
3 points per action assuming a maxed out development track. Players moving around just to pick up
the goods tokens first would average around that. This does seem to require two players picking up
goods to counter one player building trading posts though.
Sat Jul 8, 2017 4:16 pm

Orléans » Strategy » Help me beat Trading

Posat + Dev Track
Author: Buggy
So I've played a number of 2, 4, and 5 player games of Orleans lately, with a variety of groups, and
I'm having trouble seeing anything that works better than getting a bunch of trading posts then getting
high on the dev track (usually with the help of a building or two).
The game seems to really favor that. You get resources moving from town to town. You get coins for
the development track. Two of the events help people who have lots of trading posts and or
development points. One of the events punishes people who try to get their points from resources, and
just money is nowhere near strong enough.

Am I missing something? Is there a strategy that can routinely get 130+ points without going trading
posts/dev track, or is that supposed to be the main strategy of the game, and the game is more about
positioning yourself to maximize that and maybe picking up a secondary vp source along the way (a
building that grants resources or money, or going full on Farmer, or strongly pushing Benevolent
deeds)?
Mon Dec 7, 2015 11:12 pm
Author: truekid
In most games where there's a "multiplier" aspect in scoring, I assume that's the primary path that
most players should pursue, and the bigger distinction in play comes more from efficiently leveraging
your secondary paths while pursuing the primary one. In Orleans pursuing trading stations is certainly
fruitful, and a good base strategy- BUT there are definitely ways to carve out the majority of your
score from different things.

For example:
Especially at 4 and 5 players, take a look at the starting board and see if there are "high value" paths
around the board. Trading Stations requires 3 separate kinds of actions- movement, dropping stations,
and increasing your development track. Look at the point values attributed to each, and you can
definitely find an "average points per dude" expectation. If you start moving around the board slightly
earlier than the other players along paths with 3/4/5 point goods, you should not only be above the
curve for dudes-to-points, but you're also lowering their curve even further when they actually start
traveling. This makes doing things like jamming on a money or goods building much more viable. This
doesn't even have to be started particularly early, since the trade-stationers have to move-drop-move-
drop, and you only have to move to accomplish this.

There are other approaches too, but I think the "snipe the good goods" plan is one that often gets
overlooked because people associate the movement purely with the Trade Stations, when the
movement has very good return on its own.
Tue Dec 8, 2015 1:35 am
Author: emptyset
Buggy wrote:
Is there a strategy that can routinely get 130+ points without going trading posts/dev track?

The development track is the single most important thing in the game. I don't think you can neglect it
and win.
Tue Dec 8, 2015 7:53 am
Author: Buggy
Yeah, both the posts so far seem to indicate that the game is about moving around the board (ideally
building trading posts) and the development track.

It's kind of a shame. Orleans felt to me like a game that had several big paths to victory, but it is
turning into a game that has one big path to victory with several smaller branches.

This doesn't make it bad, per se, but it does make it different from what I wanted it to be.

It also means that when teaching new players, I absolutely need to caution them that they cannot
afford to ignore the development track and the map.
Tue Dec 8, 2015 3:18 pm
Author: emptyset
Buggy wrote:
It is turning into a game that has one big path to victory with several smaller branches.

Think of it this way: In Dominion, the single most important thing is to get the provinces (or colonies).

Also, you don't have to max it out, you just shouldn't completely ignore it. It's not like the winner is
automatically the one who is higher on the development track. Orléans isn't a victory point salad game,
even though it looks like it.

I think mentioning the development track when explaining the game is a good idea! On my first play, I
did neglect it and even though I didn't get totally destroyed, I lost by some margin.
Tue Dec 8, 2015 3:47 pm
Author: N2xU
Buggy wrote:
Yeah, both the posts so far seem to indicate that the game is about moving around the board (ideally building trading
posts) and the development track.

It's kind of a shame. Orleans felt to me like a game that had several big paths to victory, but it is turning into a game
that has one big path to victory with several smaller branches.

This doesn't make it bad, per se, but it does make it different from what I wanted it to be.

It also means that when teaching new players, I absolutely need to caution them that they cannot afford to ignore the
development track and the map.

Please also read this thread:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1471597/can-development...
Tue Dec 8, 2015 3:51 pm
Author: Cardboardjunkie
I did fairly well in my first attempt to ignore guildhalls. I finished with 101 points without a single
building or citizen. In hindsight, my opening turns were atrocious. I think I could streamline the
opening without committing to the strategy, and then when it was clear I could go for it, continue with
the plan. I don't think I could ever get 150+, but 140 is probably possible. You also have to consider
the starting layout of goods. Are there more on the map or in reserve?
Tue Dec 8, 2015 10:30 pm
Author: actaion
You can neglect the trading post to some extend. I've seen people win with over 150 points (4p-game)
with just 4 trading posts at the end.
On the developement track you seem to need to get to level 4 at least.

I think it makes some sense that you cannot completely ingnore both apsects. On the one hand,
without any travelling at all, the interaction woudl fall to a minimum. Secondly, it makes sens
thematically, that your tribe cannot win withgout any developement.

Still you can decide if getting tradings post and developement are yoru main areas, or just sidelines.
With some of the bonus building there come even more other strategies in to play.
Tue Dec 8, 2015 11:40 pm
Author: joekid
Just played last night (4 player). Did not move up once on the book track (no grey or gold workers).
Built no houses and collected no citizens. I went farm track to the end and red track to draw 7. used
the wagon and horse wagon with techs on them to fly around map and collect goods. I also had the
wool place and the depot place tile. In the end collected 87 points with goods. $31. 5 sets of different
goods for a depot bonus of 25. total 143. I won.
Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:59 pm
Author: Cardboardjunkie
joekid wrote:
Just played last night (4 player). Did not move up once on the book track (no grey or gold workers). Built no houses and
collected no citizens. I went farm track to the end and red track to draw 7. used the wagon and horse wagon with techs
on them to fly around map and collect goods. I also had the wool place and the depot place tile. In the end collected 87
points with goods. $31. 5 sets of different goods for a depot bonus of 25. total 143. I won.

How was your initial board set up? Maybe my mistake was getting the Tailor Shop first, which requires
Scholars. So you must have had the majority of Brocade on the map?
Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:51 pm
Author: joekid
I was able to get 4 brocade from the map and 1 from final farm space.
Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:58 pm
Author: 3dicebombers
Cardboardjunkie wrote:

How was your initial board set up? Maybe my mistake was getting the Tailor Shop first, which requires Scholars. So you
must have had the majority of Brocade on the map?

I'm also a big fan of putting gears on scholar spots so I can send my scholars to the town hall. And if
you gear the Tailor shop, you just need a tradesman (black worker) to produce the cloth. Same applies
to the wool building; if it only uses one worker it is super efficient.
Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:10 pm
Author: Cardboardjunkie
3dicebombers wrote:
Cardboardjunkie wrote:

How was your initial board set up? Maybe my mistake was getting the Tailor Shop first, which requires Scholars. So you
must have had the majority of Brocade on the map?

I'm also a big fan of putting gears on scholar spots so I can send my scholars to the town hall. And if you gear the Tailor
shop, you just need a tradesman (black worker) to produce the cloth. Same applies to the wool building; if it only uses one
worker it is super efficient.

Yep. I realized that too late in my game. If I had taken another Craftsmen early enough to cover the
Scholar on the Tailor shop, then I would have been able to complete both the Brocade and the Monk
nearly every turn. I also had the Wool building, but that wasn't nearly as bad.
Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:44 pm
Author: Sir Ransellot
Mike, I can't help you. I've been struggling with this myself. I gave a particular strategy some serious
thought after my last game, and I just tried it tonight. I have tried to win without getting very high on
the dev track, favoring a unique path to victory, and I have not found one that tops the dev track,
which is how every victory has been gained in my group.

Here is what I did...

1. Took trader, received winery.

2. Took trader, received laboratory.
3. Took craftsman, tech tiled lab.
4. Took Trader, received horse cart, tech tiled farmer on winery.

After these initial moves, I tech tiled the knight spots on road movement and building guildhouses. I
received enough knights to draw 7 dudes a turn. Any knights drawn were sent to public works board.

I started cranking out decent points earlier than my opponents. By midgame, I only had 7 dudes in my
bag, I was drawing all 7 dudes a turn,
and I was using them in the following method:

1 trader on horsecart.
1 trader on winery.
1 trader on the 4pt wool bldg.
1 farmer and 1 craftsman on building guildhouses spot.
1 trader and 1 farmer on wagon movement.

This formula allowed me to move, build a guildhouse, move again, and create a wool and a wine EVERY
turn. I wasted no turns getting monks--I didn't need them. I got 2 scholars and dumped them and a
few other guys on the public works board to thin out my bag asap, while getting to level 3 on the dev
track.

By the end of the game, I had an enormous pile of goods, which included every single wool and wine
token that wasn't on the map. I also had a slew of guildhouses--but they were only worth 3pts a piece.
I'm not sure that I can play Orleans any more efficiently than this. A guildhouse, and 4 goods every
turn, seemed like a sure fired victory, and the other players said so during the game. I had no wasted
actions, I never got an unlucky draw. Every turn I knew what dudes I would be drawing, and I was
using my dudes to great efficiency.

I got slaughtered.

My final score was around 147, and I was proud of that. This isn't my highest score, but it was my
tightest play--which is telling. The victor, (who did not spend time developing a strategy beforehand,
who had several unlucky draws, and who had several bad plays in which he cursed himself) won by
taking a lot of scholars, shooting up the dev track, sending dudes to the public works board, and
building guildhalls. He scored 37 points more than I, with his admittedly sub-par performance.

I haven't been so disheartened by a defeat in a long, long time.

This dev track recipe is pretty much the same way everyone is earning their victory now, and I
stubbornly refuse to follow this path. I think the problem is that this game looks and feels like it has
multiple paths to victory, but it really doesn't.

Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:33 am

Author: clongstr72
I like the idea of this strategy because I prefer unusual paths to victory too, but i'm not sure all those
steps are legally correct.

You have to put down a technology tile on a farmer for the first use of the craftsman. That extra step
severely slows down this approach.

I used a similar strategy but incorporated a single monk. I ended up with 139 but still lost to the dev
track approach (144)
Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:41 pm
Author: Buggy
So I believe one of the problems is that the events force you to go this route. Of the six events, fully
half of them support the trading post/dev track:

Income - gain coins equal to your stars on the dev track

Trading Day - gain coins equal to your trading posts
Taxes - Lose a coin for every three resources you have round down.

This means that if you go the resource route, you are hit hardest by taxes and gain the least benefit
from Income and Trading Day. My gut tells me that was done to balance the game during playtesting,
that resources were too powerful, but if so, they went too far in the other direction.

I'd like to try removing one of each event and adding two of the following three events (giving the
same number of rounds):
- Market Day: Gain a coin for each different type of resource you have.
- Census: Pay a coin for each citizen you own.
- Market Stall: Each player may buy a resource for one coin less than the vp benefit of the resource
(starting with first player and going clockwise)

I don't have Invasion, so I don't know how close any of these are to the new events in Invasion.

I'd also like to make the Tavern worth 7 points instead of 5. I tried a Tavern strategy and was able to
get it to pay off thrice at the end of the game, but other than that one game, I have never seen
anyone even consider the tavern. (I still lost the tavern strategy game to someone who went trading
post/dev track).

What do people think?

Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:55 pm
Author: jepmn
I've been thinking a lot on this as well. My first two plays, I went purely with the dev track approach
and clobbered all opponents both times. The last two games I've tried to steer clear. My last game was
the most successful at 115 points, but I was still beaten by another player with 145 points.

I think you're right on the event tiles. They actively reward a high development strategy and punish a
high resource one. I wonder how a game would play if you completely ignored the events. Maybe leave
the plague in for the mechanic of returning previously exhausted worker tiles to the board.

It's also a bit compounded by the mechanic of the lowest farmers losing no coins if they're tied. Getting
farmers is a good way to get resources, but if one person shoots up the track and at least two others
stay at the same spot, those players never lose the coin. I think maybe they should ALL lose the coin.
Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:39 pm
Author: Buggy
I've been fiddling around with the events and buildings and yesterday I was able to win with a pure
resource strategy.

It involved using the Hayrick and Lair to get a total of 6 buildings, including the laboratory and then
gearing everything. I then moved around the board collecting resources, grabbed a bunch of farmers,
and used the buildings to clear the supply of cloth and wool. I also was able to get a nice bonus from
the depot as I ended up with at least three of each resources.

I won with about 135 points, but I think that if my wife had pursued a pure trading post/dev track
strategy, she would have won. And my win was tainted by the fiddling I did to the game to make such
a win possible. I mean, I reduced the number of events to two each and added three new events
specifically to help a resource strategy and I still ended up with a close win after many losses. The
trading post/dev track is that strong (or I'm that bad at the game, both are likely).
Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:55 pm
Author: jepmn
My loss last time was in no small part due to another player snagging the building that makes brocade
before I could. And they really cranked through the stuff, producing one almost every turn.

I also did't help myself by the fact that we play with a building market rather than a "pick whatever
you want from the deck" approach. Means I have to play with what's available.

Of course, the "pick what you want" method is extremely strong for the dev track, as you can get the
building that makes scholars into monks.
Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:39 am
Author: drunkenKOALA
If you are moving around empty routes to build trading posts without picking up any goods, that's only
3 points per action assuming a maxed out development track. Players moving around just to pick up
the goods tokens first would average around that. This does seem to require two players picking up
goods to counter one player building trading posts though.
Sat Jul 8, 2017 4:16 pm

Orléans » Strategy » Technology tile race

pretty much mandatory?
Author: Lapsus
So, 18 rounds is pretty long, which makes anything that sacrifices short term points for more actions
quite strong.

It seems like racing for technology is essentially mandatory to have any chance of winning. I'm sure
there's the odd game here and there but generally speaking, it doesn't seem like a no-tech (or a no-
knight) strategy is viable at all. It could be if the game was shorter (like 12 rounds or
something) but at 18 rounds, maxing actions seems like a no brainer.

How universally true to you guys feel the points below are?

- As it stands, I will always be racing for gears.

- Knights, for the same reason, also seem fairly mandatory for everyone at the start.
- Monks are also hard to pass and generally get depleted quite fast.
- The development track also seem kind of must-do, but it's not limited (unlike gears) and there less
requirement to go at it right at the start. People do it later, but you have to do with to win.
- A few traders for buildings early is good to get the good ones, but that's it.
- Most of our winners have generally neglected boatmen & farmers, as the point swing for those is less
worthwhile.
- Traveling early and racing for the high value goods is not worth it, especially if you aren't building
trading stations on the way.

I'm curious to hear what you guys think. I'm sure someone will come out and say "I always win by
maxing the boatman track", but in actual play, I find the paths to victory to be much more limited then
it seemed at first glance. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of paths, but not a lot which seem able to
compete with gears+knights?
Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:23 pm
Author: senorcoo
I like getting a couple of gears, but I prefer to get Monks.
Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:09 pm
Author: mfaulk80
I agree with pretty much everything that you propose although I don't think the Gears are as much of
a must as the Knights.

I'm really having a hard time seeing how the Boatmen and Farmers are worth it. I've seen someone try
to use a Boatmen strategy with the Building that allows one to use Boatmen for the other 3 starting
colors...and it failed HARD. Honestly, I feel like that track needs an additional bonus "worker" or
whatever it is called....or the money values need to be bumped up. It's just not worth it.

I'm also disappointed with the balance in the Buildings. Even ignoring the Bathhouse, there are 4-5
buildings that are clearly stronger than the others, and there are 3-4 buildings that I'd never consider
building.

I don't mind that the Development Track is a must...but I agree that it is.

Lastly, and I know it's been mentioned before, but I find the Events to be lacking. Early in the game,
they can be randomly devastating...and late in the game, they seem meaningless.

Keeping all of the above in mind, I feel like the game lacks a bit of variety. Even with all of the
different options, it just seems like certain paths are stronger than others. I feel like Orleans has a
huge amount of potential...if it was just a little more polished.
Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:36 pm
Author: Rapscallion_69
My first game I didn't get a single technology wheel, and I came in second place 105 to 121. I also
beat the guy who had the most (he had the Laboratory) by a whopping 26 points. I could have
optimized a couple turns better than I did and it might have helped to have a couple some but I
wouldn't say it's mandatory.
Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:57 pm
Author: actaion
Lapsus wrote:

- As it stands, I will always be racing for gears. at least a few seem mandatory
- Knights, for the same reason, also seem fairly mandatory for everyone at the start.yes
- Monks are also hard to pass and generally get depleted quite fast. No, getting a lot of monks is a losing strategy. If you
get the school, you need no monks at all. Otherwiese just 2 or 3.
- The development track also seem kind of must-do, but it's not limited (unlike gears) and there less requirement to go at
it right at the start. People do it later, but you have to do with to win.at least to level 4, yes
- A few traders for buildings early is good to get the good ones, but that's it. depends
- Most of our winners have generally neglected boatmen & farmers, as the point swing for those is less
worthwhile. farmers are not so bad. If no one goes fotr them, being first on the track is very attractive. Also with a gear
on it, you get goods for just 1 worker. The boatman are often attractave towards the end of the game
- Traveling early and racing for the high value goods is not worth it, especially if you aren't building trading stations on
the way.Not too early, yes, but being slightly earlier than the others might be useful

Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:49 pm

Author: actaion
Rapscallion_69 wrote:
My first game I didn't get a single technology wheel, and I came in second place 105 to 121. I also beat the guy who had
the most (he had the Laboratory) by a whopping 26 points..
Well, among good players, with just 121 points, your winner would be certainly in last place. Anything
below 130 is very crappy.
Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:54 pm
Author: mfaulk80
actaion wrote:
Rapscallion_69 wrote:
My first game I didn't get a single technology wheel, and I came in second place 105 to 121. I also beat the guy who
had the most (he had the Laboratory) by a whopping 26 points..

Well, among good players, with just 121 points, your winner would be certainly in last place. Anything below 130 is very
crappy.

I was going to say that seemed like a low winning score, but we've only played 2p so I wasn't sure.
Our winner in the last 3 games have all been between 165-180.
Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:56 pm
Author: hgcoleman
mfaulk80 wrote:
I agree with pretty much everything that you propose although I don't think the Gears are as much of a must as the
Knights.

I'm really having a hard time seeing how the Boatmen and Farmers are worth it. I've seen someone try to use a Boatmen
strategy with the Building the allows one to use Boatmen for the other 3 starting colors...and it failed HARD. Honestly, I
feel like that track needs an additional bonus "worker" or whatever it is called....or the money values need to be bumped
up. It's just not worth it.

I'm also disappointed with the balance in the Buildings. Even ignoring the Bathhouse, there are 4-5 buildings that are
clearly stronger than the others, and there are 3-4 buildings that I'd never consider building.

I don't mind that the Development Track is a must...but I agree that it is.

Lastly, and I know it's been mentioned before, but I find the Events to be lacking. Early in the game, they can be
randomly devastating...and late in the game, they seem meaningless.

Keeping all of the above in mind, I feel like the game lacks a bit of variety. Even with all of the different
options, it just seems like certain paths are stronger than others. I feel like Orleans has a huge amount of
potential...if it was just a little more polished.

I agree with everything you said, Mathue, especially the last paragraph. Then again, even classics like
Agricola are scripted to an extent - get wood, get reed, build rooms , grow your family, etc. However
the variety of occupations and minor improvements increase Agricola's game-to-game variability.
Orleans isn't quite in that category as I see it.
Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:49 am
Author: Gswp
In the games I've played, winner was always all the way down the development track and then also
had quite a few trading stations. Advancing on the track gives you quite a bit of money as well.
People with goods (and then to ~level 4 of the track) generally couldn't compete.

The scholars actually ran out, because that's the best way of advancing on the track. People then
dumped them into the good deeds section of the board.

This is admittedly based on only three plays, so there might well be better strategies.
Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:27 am
Author: Faray
Not agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, but the first game I won, I didn't have a single tech and I
went full boats with the building that let you use boats as wilds.

Have yet to see farmers work out.

Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:49 pm
Author: mfaulk80
Faray wrote:
Not agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, but the first game I won, I didn't have a single tech and I went full boats with
the building that let you use boats as wilds.
Have yet to see farmers work out.

That's good to hear. What was your final score?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:12 pm
Author: Lapsus
Faray wrote:
Not agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, but the first game I won, I didn't have a single tech and I went full boats with
the building that let you use boats as wilds.

Have yet to see farmers work out.

I actually tried that in my very 1st game. Lost 130 to 220 to the guy with the
Laboratorium+Bathhouse+Office :P
Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:18 pm
Author: mfaulk80
Lapsus wrote:
Faray wrote:
Not agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, but the first game I won, I didn't have a single tech and I went full boats with
the building that let you use boats as wilds.

Have yet to see farmers work out.

I actually tried that in my very 1st game. Lost 130 to 220 to the guy with the Laboratorium+Bathhouse+Office

220? Damn. Which version of the Bathhouse?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:29 pm
Author: Lapsus
mfaulk80 wrote:
Lapsus wrote:
Faray wrote:
Not agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, but the first game I won, I didn't have a single tech and I went full boats
with the building that let you use boats as wilds.

Have yet to see farmers work out.

I actually tried that in my very 1st game. Lost 130 to 220 to the guy with the Laboratorium+Bathhouse+Office :P

220? Damn. Which version of the Bathhouse?

TMG's bathhouse. But he basically went uncontested on gears, until late. He also got to max red 1st.
So he was activating 7 to 9 places every round for the last 4-5 round. With the Office geting him
anywhere from 7 to 10 every round. Me and the other guy focused on the map too much. It was a
slaughter =)
Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:49 pm
Author: mfaulk80
Lapsus wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
Lapsus wrote:
Faray wrote:
Not agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, but the first game I won, I didn't have a single tech and I went full boats
with the building that let you use boats as wilds.

Have yet to see farmers work out.

I actually tried that in my very 1st game. Lost 130 to 220 to the guy with the Laboratorium+Bathhouse+Office

220? Damn. Which version of the Bathhouse?

TMG's bathhouse. But he basically went uncontested on gears, until late. He also got to max red 1st. So he was activating 7
to 9 places every round for the last 4-5 round. With the Office geting him anywhere from 7 to 10 every round. Me and the
other guy focused on the map too much. It was a slaughter =)

Still impressive. I think TMG's Bathhouse is still a little too strong. I'm thinking about using DLP's new
version...or a hybrid of some sort. I'll have to look at which building the Office is. The Bathhouse and
Laboratory are two of my favorites.
Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:23 pm
Author: mcsittel
mfaulk80 wrote:
Lastly, and I know it's been mentioned before, but I find the Events to be lacking. Early in the game, they can be
randomly devastating...and late in the game, they seem meaningless.

You might want to pick up Orléans: Invasion (I ordered it directly from DLP). There are many new
events that you can use not only for the competitive and cooperative scenarios outlined in the rule
book but also as an enhancement to the base game, as you are invited to do by the same rule book.
So there is opportunity to adjust the range of events as you see fit, from benefit-heavy to calamity-
laden. The choice is ultimately yours!
Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:42 pm
Author: Rapscallion_69
mfaulk80 wrote:
actaion wrote:
Rapscallion_69 wrote:
My first game I didn't get a single technology wheel, and I came in second place 105 to 121. I also beat the guy who
had the most (he had the Laboratory) by a whopping 26 points..

Well, among good players, with just 121 points, your winner would be certainly in last place. Anything below 130 is very
crappy.

I was going to say that seemed like a low winning score, but we've only played 2p so I wasn't sure. Our winner in the last 3
games have all been between 165-180.

It WAS a 5-player game ;P And the first time any of us played.

Tue Dec 1, 2015 5:23 am
Author: bearn
Although I agree a few gears are needed pretty much everything else the OP wrote i disagree with. I'm
also curious which promo tiles they have and whether they are using the base game events or the
expansion event system?

Going down one single path is an obvious mistake which anyone that plays games like this already
knows. However you still want to narrow your focus based on opponents plays. Watching what they are
doing is a big deal IMO.

I would also be curious if they are drafting tiles out of the game? Once you grasp the game the counter
drafting rule really changes how a game is played out.
Tue Dec 1, 2015 6:52 am
Author: Lapsus
Thanks for your replies everyone.

@bearn

bearn wrote:
Although I agree a few gears are needed pretty much everything else the OP wrote i disagree with.

So you think farmer and boatman are as important as knights and the development track? That seems
like a contrarian view alright...

bearn wrote:
However you still want to narrow your focus based on opponents plays. Watching what they are doing is a big deal IMO.

Well that's almost universally true for euros, but reducing strategy discussion to "you can't say
anything because it depends what the other player are doing" is sort of limiting imho.

Besides, in this case, even if 3 players are all doing gears+knight+development and leaving the 4th
alone unchallenged with everything else for the first 6 turns of the game, that 4th player will still lose if
he doesn't get involved in those 3 things as they'll get depleted.

So for these big 3, it's really not that important what your opponents are doing, which is sort of weird
for a "best of essen" game. In the end we chalked it up to being like the fields and the family hut in
Stone Age: everyone must do those things to compete, it's about what else you do.

bearn wrote:
I would also be curious if they are drafting tiles out of the game? Once you grasp the game the counter drafting rule
really changes how a game is played out.

TMG version, nothing drafted out, no promos, vanilla, no invasion, no optional rules or variant.

Beyond that, I'm sure you can house rule/variant it to the moon and back. In particular, a mechanics
what would let player affect when the game ends or simply a shorter game would probably make for
more interesting choices and trade offs. But that's not the same game...

I bought Invasion but haven't received it yet. Who knows, hopefully it can help with some of my
concerns.
Tue Dec 1, 2015 3:54 pm
Author: lukas4
Actually, the guy who wins the most is the one who pushes up the farmer track the fastest. Not just
the bonus money, but getting the free goods and the later most expensive ones has been great.

Yes, you need knights, monks and other things, but now we all compete on the farmer track.
Tue Dec 1, 2015 4:08 pm
Author: stoneagewar3
Rapscallion_69 wrote:
My first game I didn't get a single technology wheel, and I came in second place 105 to 121. I also beat the guy who had
the most (he had the Laboratory) by a whopping 26 points. I could have optimized a couple turns better than I did and it
might have helped to have a couple some but I wouldn't say it's mandatory.

Thats looks like a really low score

We played for just 12 turns (removed 1 of each event) yesterday, the winner had 98 points, I was a
close second at 95, third place had 89, last place was going for a long game strategy and came in at
79.

And I am pretty sure that all of us would be well past the 120 mark had we done 6 more turns, as
everyone had their own engines built, with the person who came in last having the most impressive
enigne, getting pretty much a guarenteed 8 points a turn on the last 2 turns (she had so many monks
and knights that it was guarenteed that she'll get a minimum of 8,and she could still travel or build a
guildhouse to increase her point yield, I'd say she would of won it if we played the full 18 turns, and
she was just a few spots away from getting the 6 for her multiplier)
Tue Dec 1, 2015 10:23 pm
Author: bearn
 Lapsus wrote:
Thanks for your replies everyone.

@bearn

bearn wrote:
Although I agree a few gears are needed pretty much everything else the OP wrote i disagree with.

So you think farmer and boatman are as important as knights and the development track? That seems like a contrarian
view alright...

bearn wrote:
However you still want to narrow your focus based on opponents plays. Watching what they are doing is a big deal IMO.

Well that's almost universally true for euros, but reducing strategy discussion to "you can't say anything because it depends
what the other player are doing" is sort of limiting imho.

Besides, in this case, even if 3 players are all doing gears+knight+development and leaving the 4th alone unchallenged
with everything else for the first 6 turns of the game, that 4th player will still lose if he doesn't get involved in those 3
things as they'll get depleted.

So for these big 3, it's really not that important what your opponents are doing, which is sort of weird for a "best of essen"
game. In the end we chalked it up to being like the fields and the family hut in Stone Age: everyone must do those things
to compete, it's about what else you do.

bearn wrote:
I would also be curious if they are drafting tiles out of the game? Once you grasp the game the counter drafting rule
really changes how a game is played out.

TMG version, nothing drafted out, no promos, vanilla, no invasion, no optional rules or variant.

Beyond that, I'm sure you can house rule/variant it to the moon and back. In particular, a mechanics what would let player
affect when the game ends or simply a shorter game would probably make for more interesting choices and trade offs. But
that's not the same game...

I bought Invasion but haven't received it yet. Who knows, hopefully it can help with some of my concerns.

I guess the only true way to see if other strategies work is to play against those not in your same play
group. I've seen this problem many times including my own group. Get some new blood involved and
they think a different way that your normal group isn't used to.

I find Technology useful but not the be all end all "must have as much as I can". Boatman used
correctly especially late game can steal you citizens from the tracks most often filled up first. You can
make up for not getting Knights by grabbing monks or using technology to just make sure you never
really need them as well. You could even draft the tech tile and just fill in which ones you don't want to
put in the bag.

Farmers IMO are more important than you are giving them credit for. The extra coin is always good
and forcing a coin from players is a pretty big deal early on unless they want to waste actions making
coins. The goods you get are worth victory points or can satisfy event requirements without actually
spending actions to avoid those events. I can safely say our first dozen or so games we overlooked
farmers greatly and have since revised our theory on how good they are. Competition on that track is
usually pretty fierce.

As for the tiles I would say the revised ruling on Bathhouse is better balanced now. Sadly I must
confess that many of the promo tiles NEED to be in the game. I see you are getting the expansion and
that has 3 of them in the box to add to the game and believe me you WILL want them in as they make
a significant impact on the game IMO.

I would also suggest using the Advanced Player rules and allow each player before the game to Draft
Out a tile from either the Age 1 or 2 stack. It's not a house rule it's an actually optional rule that is
listed in the rules and should be done to vary the game.
Also in the expansion is a new Events board which IMO almost always plays better than the random
event tiles from the base game which to be honest don't provide enough variety. Being able to plan out
all the events for the game instead of randomly having them come up presents many interesting
choices.

Once you get a few games in with the Invasion stuff let us know your thoughts.
Wed Dec 2, 2015 2:24 am
Author: mfaulk80
bearn wrote:

I guess the only true way to see if other strategies work is to play against those not in your same play group. I've seen
this problem many times including my own group. Get some new blood involved and they think a different way that your
normal group isn't used to.

I agree that this could be an issue.

bearn wrote:
Boatman used correctly especially late game can steal you citizens from the tracks most often filled up first.
[...]
Farmers IMO are more important than you are giving them credit for. The extra coin is always good and forcing a coin
from players is a pretty big deal early on unless they want to waste actions making coins. The goods you get are worth
victory points or can satisfy event requirements without actually spending actions to avoid those events.

For both Farmers and Boatman, I think that playing only 2p games affects my opinion. In a 2p game,
getting Citizens is really more about playing chicken and/or timing the 1st/2nd player switch than it is
about specific types of workers like Boatman.

As for Farmers, there isn't a penalty for having the least in a 2p game. The single coin seems like a
nice little bonus, but since it's not guaranteed if the other player pushes at all, it's really not worth it
IMO. Goods are easy to get by traveling with 2p as well...since it's relatively easy to avoid the other
player and still get the better goods.

In other words, maybe my issue has more to do with how the game balances with 2p than it does with
the game overall...

bearn wrote:
As for the tiles I would say the revised ruling on Bathhouse is better balanced now. Sadly I must confess that many of the
promo tiles NEED to be in the game. I see you are getting the expansion and that has 3 of them in the box to add to the
game and believe me you WILL want them in as they make a significant impact on the game IMO.
[...]
Also in the expansion is a new Events board which IMO almost always plays better than the random event tiles from the
base game which to be honest don't provide enough variety. Being able to plan out all the events for the game instead of
randomly having them come up presents many interesting choices.

Once you get a few games in with the Invasion stuff let us know your thoughts.

I just can't convince myself to spend $50 on an expansion right now. I'm hoping TMG decides to pick it
up soon. In the mean time, I'm working on some variants to balance the game a bit more for our 2p
games....spent the last couple of nights on PhotoShop actually.

bearn wrote:
I would also suggest using the Advanced Player rules and allow each player before the game to Draft Out a tile from
either the Age 1 or 2 stack. It's not a house rule it's an actually optional rule that is listed in the rules and should be done
to vary the game.

I don't love the variant rules honestly. We'd just end up taking out the best tiles every
game...especially since 4 are removed in the 2p game. I'd rather have a larger selection of balanced
tiles. That would make the variant more interesting.
Wed Dec 2, 2015 3:24 am
Author: Lapsus
bearn wrote:

I find Technology useful but not the be all end all "must have as much as I can". Boatman used correctly especially late
 game can steal you citizens from the tracks most often filled up first. You can make up for not getting Knights by
grabbing monks or using technology to just make sure you never really need them as well.

The point of knights, however, isn't the red tokens, which you can indeed replace with monks. The
point of doing knights is drawing more tokens every round. Gears act the same way.

A person drawing 4 tokens and placing on un-geared places with 2-3 spots to fill will activate 1 or 2
actions a round.

A person drawing 8 tokens and placing on geared places with 1-2 spots to fill will activate anywhere
from 4 to 8 actions a turn.

So they are basically playing 4x as much as the 1st person. If you sacrifice 6 turns setting that up, you
still get (18-6)x4=48 effective turns in. Compared to 18x1=18 for the 1st person. That's 2.5x more
actions to generate points. I suppose it's not a guaranteed win, but...

I really want for there to be a 'diversity of tactics' and "multiple paths to victory". I really do... But with
18 rounds games, I really don't think you are free to eschew gears or knight in favor of anything else.
Wed Dec 2, 2015 3:51 pm
Author: bearn
Lapsus wrote:
bearn wrote:

I find Technology useful but not the be all end all "must have as much as I can". Boatman used correctly especially late
game can steal you citizens from the tracks most often filled up first. You can make up for not getting Knights by
grabbing monks or using technology to just make sure you never really need them as well.

The point of knights, however, isn't the red tokens, which you can indeed replace with monks. The point of doing knights is
drawing more tokens every round. Gears act the same way.

A person drawing 4 tokens and placing on un-geared places with 2-3 spots to fill will activate 1 or 2 actions a round.

A person drawing 8 tokens and placing on geared places with 1-2 spots to fill will activate anywhere from 4 to 8 actions a
turn.

So they are basically playing 4x as much as the 1st person. If you sacrifice 6 turns setting that up, you still get (18-
6)x4=48 effective turns in. Compared to 18x1=18 for the 1st person. That's 2.5x more actions to generate points. I
suppose it's not a guaranteed win, but...

I really want for there to be a 'diversity of tactics' and "multiple paths to victory". I really do... But with 18 rounds games, I
really don't think you are free to eschew gears or knight in favor of anything else.

Sure you are going to want some knights early for the extra draw and for travel if you aren't gearing
them out. Taking boatman early is a bad idea but ignoring them entirely is a bad idea as well.

So in the beginning you have to choose builders, knights or even a farmer. Eventually you will get
them all but the order they come in is just as important as getting them.

You are also looking at an optimum pull each turn. Many times if you acquire multiples of the same
token early on or even mid game and saturate the bag you will get a pull where you get 1 or max two
actions because you didn't balance the bag out. So sure you could go right ahead and just load that
bag up with knights to get maximum pulls but good luck getting anything from the bag worth a damn
to work with. It's all about balancing what you put in and what you take out. If you go to far one way
or the other you will end up with a pull from the bag that can severely hamper your turn or even
multiple turns.

The multiple paths to victory comes in how you balance that bag out so you can get the actions each
turn you want. You simply cannot pile the bag full of one or the other or even both without causing
major issues when going to place for your actions. You will simply not have enough of the others to get
those actions to go off. Even worse is just placing to take actions for the sake of placement. Now you
are certainly adding clutter to your bag and will have a difficult time clearing market space to even get
the full use of a 7 or 8 token pull.
Wed Dec 2, 2015 9:52 pm
Author: bearn
mfaulk80 wrote:
bearn wrote:

I guess the only true way to see if other strategies work is to play against those not in your same play group. I've seen
this problem many times including my own group. Get some new blood involved and they think a different way that
your normal group isn't used to.

I agree that this could be an issue.

bearn wrote:
Boatman used correctly especially late game can steal you citizens from the tracks most often filled up first.
[...]
Farmers IMO are more important than you are giving them credit for. The extra coin is always good and forcing a coin
from players is a pretty big deal early on unless they want to waste actions making coins. The goods you get are worth
victory points or can satisfy event requirements without actually spending actions to avoid those events.

For both Farmers and Boatman, I think that playing only 2p games affects my opinion. In a 2p game, getting Citizens is
really more about playing chicken and/or timing the 1st/2nd player switch than it is about specific types of workers like
Boatman.

As for Farmers, there isn't a penalty for having the least in a 2p game. The single coin seems like a nice little bonus, but
since it's not guaranteed if the other player pushes at all, it's really not worth it IMO. Goods are easy to get by traveling
with 2p as well...since it's relatively easy to avoid the other player and still get the better goods.

In other words, maybe my issue has more to do with how the game balances with 2p than it does with the game overall...

bearn wrote:
As for the tiles I would say the revised ruling on Bathhouse is better balanced now. Sadly I must confess that many of
the promo tiles NEED to be in the game. I see you are getting the expansion and that has 3 of them in the box to add
to the game and believe me you WILL want them in as they make a significant impact on the game IMO.
[...]
Also in the expansion is a new Events board which IMO almost always plays better than the random event tiles from the
base game which to be honest don't provide enough variety. Being able to plan out all the events for the game instead
of randomly having them come up presents many interesting choices.

Once you get a few games in with the Invasion stuff let us know your thoughts.

I just can't convince myself to spend $50 on an expansion right now. I'm hoping TMG decides to pick it up soon. In the
mean time, I'm working on some variants to balance the game a bit more for our 2p games....spent the last couple of
nights on PhotoShop actually.

bearn wrote:
I would also suggest using the Advanced Player rules and allow each player before the game to Draft Out a tile from
either the Age 1 or 2 stack. It's not a house rule it's an actually optional rule that is listed in the rules and should be
done to vary the game.

I don't love the variant rules honestly. We'd just end up taking out the best tiles every game...especially since 4 are
removed in the 2p game. I'd rather have a larger selection of balanced tiles. That would make the variant more interesting.

Two player does play a lot differently than a game with 3-5 players in it. The direct competition for the
top valued goods is always a race in the bigger games and the specific age tiles you want to get your
engine going will go quickly if you don't grab them early on. One fo the biggest changes I always see is
how quickly the farms get snapped up. Moving up that track is a big deal with a larger player count.

I certainly understand your point about the expansion. I shelled out nearly $85 to have a copy
imported because it add so much to the game. I really hope they get a US version out in the next year.
The age tiles and the revamped events board are very good. the scenarios are all top notch and quite
difficult.

It's funny you mention that about the tile removal rules. We thought the same thing and for about 10
or so games the same tiles kept going out but players still found ways to make huge points. After a
while we just realized that they are all equally as important. Now we don't remove any of the tiles. the
rule seems more useful to new players to show them that each tile is as good as another.

Wed Dec 2, 2015 10:02 pm

Author: Lapsus
bearn wrote:
IF your group is simply piling the bag full of what you perceive is the best tokens to have because of their immediate
reward I suspect you are doing something wrong with the rules.

Oh... well I didn't say that but I was sort of making the assumption that you trimmed your bag as you
went. If I have enough (2-4) monks for versatility, there's really no reason to keep more tokens in
your bag then the exact number you are going to pull. If you end up getting more and drawing them,
you cull them right away.

You don't need to make the assumption of optimal pulls, you can pretty much ensure them. And even
if you drop that multiplier to x3 or even x2, to account for eventual imperfect draws and bag trimming,
you still end up way ahead (36to18 or 24to18).

bearn wrote:
Eventually you will get them all but the order they come in is just as important as getting them.

I agree with you, but the speed at which they come is even more important than the order, because
the stacks get depleted and how fast you are getting them is also how fast you'll be taking point
actions.
Wed Dec 2, 2015 10:07 pm
Author: bearn
Lapsus wrote:
bearn wrote:
IF your group is simply piling the bag full of what you perceive is the best tokens to have because of their immediate
reward I suspect you are doing something wrong with the rules.

Oh... well I didn't say that but I was sort of making the assumption that you trimmed your bag as you went. If I have
enough (2-4) monks for versatility, there's really no reason to keep more tokens in your bag then the exact number you
are going to pull. If you end up getting more and drawing them, you cull them right away.

You don't need to make the assumption of optimal pulls, you can pretty much ensure them. And even if you drop that
multiplier to x3 or even x2, to account for eventual imperfect draws and bag trimming, you still end up way ahead (36to18
or 24to18).

bearn wrote:
Eventually you will get them all but the order they come in is just as important as getting them.

I agree with you, but the speed at which they come is even more important than the order, because the stacks get depleted
and how fast you are getting them is also how fast you'll be taking point actions.

Yeah that's not exactly what I meant after reading it again so I changed it. Obviously we have two
different experiences with the game. I just don't see this issue when playing the game.
Wed Dec 2, 2015 10:31 pm
Author: Rapscallion_69
mfaulk80 wrote:
Lapsus wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
Lapsus wrote:
Faray wrote:
Not agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, but the first game I won, I didn't have a single tech and I went full boats
with the building that let you use boats as wilds.

Have yet to see farmers work out.

I actually tried that in my very 1st game. Lost 130 to 220 to the guy with the Laboratorium+Bathhouse+Office
220? Damn. Which version of the Bathhouse?

TMG's bathhouse. But he basically went uncontested on gears, until late. He also got to max red 1st. So he was activating 7
to 9 places every round for the last 4-5 round. With the Office geting him anywhere from 7 to 10 every round. Me and the
other guy focused on the map too much. It was a slaughter =)

Still impressive. I think TMG's Bathhouse is still a little too strong. I'm thinking about using DLP's new version...or a hybrid
of some sort. I'll have to look at which building the Office is. The Bathhouse and Laboratory are two of my favorites.

TMG's is the weaker bathhouse BTW. DLP is draw 3, place 2, one goes back in the bag. TMG is draw 2,
place 1, one goes back in the bag and I think you guys must have scored it wrong (or did not remove
the appropriate workers based on your player count). Played our second game tonight and AGAIN all
the scores were in the 80-120 range (4-player game). Which is also where all the scores were in the
game they played on GameNight. I just do not see someone getting that high a score while scoring
correctly. If played with people who actually know how to play games like these no one gets that large
an advantage so even if you WERE scoring correctly, I would not say that that is remotely like a typical
score.
Thu Dec 3, 2015 4:34 am
Author: mfaulk80
Rapscallion_69 wrote:

TMG's is the weaker bathhouse BTW. DLP is draw 3, place 2, one goes back in the bag. TMG is draw 2, place 1, one goes
back in the bag and I think you guys must have scored it wrong (or did not remove the appropriate workers based on
your player count). Played our second game tonight and AGAIN all the scores were in the 80-120 range (4-player game).
Which is also where all the scores were in the game they played on GameNight. I just do not see someone getting that
high a score while scoring correctly. If played with people who actually know how to play games like these no one gets
that large an advantage so even if you WERE scoring correctly, I would not say that that is remotely like a typical score.

No, that is the original DLP version. The "new version" is: Farmer to activate, draw 2, place 1. In other
words, there is no net gain of workers.
Here is a thread on it: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1268689/official-badehaus-d...

As for the scores, I'm about 99% sure that we've played correctly. I've read the rulebook multiple
times, and I'm a stickler for rules. It may be that 2p scores are inflated, but it's definitely not difficult
to score over 120 with 2p. Our first game was lower scoring like yours, but the winner has scored at
least 160 in all 3 games since then. I've seen scores reported here and there on BGG, and there are
plenty that are lower scoring (often session reports of first plays), but there are also several with
higher scoring games. Oh, and I've only played with "people who actually know how to play games like
these."

We're not playing wrong. We're not playing with bad players. In my case, I am playing 2p games
though.
Thu Dec 3, 2015 5:08 am
Author: Rapscallion_69
mfaulk80 wrote:
No, that is the original DLP version. The "new version" is: Farmer to activate, draw 2, place 1. In other words, there is no
net gain of workers.

Right the TMG is the "new" version (so we agree on that LOL) which is weaker in my opinion. The DLP
is Draw 3 keep 2 for a net GAIN of a worker which is much more powerful to me. After "learning" the
game watching GameNight I was actually a little disappointed to see they had changed that.

And it could be with 2-player it can get there. Personally, I almost never see playing this game with
less than 3 (really less than 4 but a 3-player game MAY happen at some point in the future). In a 2-
player game there's very little that can be done to prevent someone from getting the machine running
that efficiently as there is in higher player counts. 220 is an aberration though. When you get more
players though there is much more "I need to do this to keep this player from running rampant over us
all" though resulting in lower scores. I can see 160 happening in a 2-player game though. Especially
with the Laboratory going early on.
Thu Dec 3, 2015 6:23 am
Author: mfaulk80
Rapscallion_69 wrote:
 mfaulk80 wrote:
No, that is the original DLP version. The "new version" is: Farmer to activate, draw 2, place 1. In other words, there is
no net gain of workers.

Right the TMG is the "new" version (so we agree on that LOL) which is weaker in my opinion. The DLP is Draw 3 keep 2 for
a net GAIN of a worker which is much more powerful to me. After "learning" the game watching GameNight I was actually a
little disappointed to see they had changed that.

No, we're still not agreeing. There are three versions.

1) Old DLP: Farmer to activate, draw 3, place 2. Net gain of +1.
2) TMG: Free action*, draw 2, place 1. Net gain of +1.
3) New DLP: Farmer to activate, draw 2, place 1. No net gain.

*Note that the TMG has a shadow of a Farmer on its tile, but, as explained in the rulebook, this is only
so that players can choose to play the original rule if they want to.

I agree that 220 is an aberration which is why I was impressed. Even if everyone leaves you
completely alone, that seems like a tough score to replicate. The highest in our games has been 180.
Anyway, you may not want to play it with 2p, but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of us who are
playing like that. As I said on the first page of this thread, maybe my issue has more to do with how
the game balances with 2p than it does with the game overall. Lack of competition (as you allude) is
not the primary issue with the 2p game, it's that the rules simply don't balance for how the game
changes with 2p.
Thu Dec 3, 2015 1:15 pm
Author: Rapscallion_69
Then we were playing it like the new DLP then. We saw the farmer art on there and were thinking it
meant that you still needed to use a farmer to use it. I still like the old DLP way personally.
Thu Dec 3, 2015 5:24 pm
Author: Faray
Sorry the first game I won with boats I don't remember the score since it was a long time ago,
however I played another game trying to boats and I was able to win. The final score was 133 for me
(Not sure if that's high or low). It was a 4p game, 1 person was new. I did however use gears, but I
ignored the development track (I got my books by using the building to buy them). If you guys want
more details on what I did I can give them out.

I think there is some variety in winning, but some things in the game you have to do. You need to get
up to 7 draws a round, you need to get to 4 on the development track, you need to get a couple of
cogs etc... but the question is how much do you commit to it, how fast do you try to get to it, what do
you sacrifice, how else do you get points etc....

Thu Dec 3, 2015 11:36 pm

Author: mfaulk80
Faray wrote:
Sorry the first game I won with boats I don't remember the score since it was a long time ago, however I played another
game trying to boats and I was able to win. The final score was 133 for me (Not sure if that's high or low). It was a 4p
game, 1 person was new. I did however use gears, but I ignored the development track (I got my books by using the
building to buy them). If you guys want more details on what I did I can give them out.

That's still using the Development Track. You ignored Scholars, but progressed along the Development
Track with your building actions.

(I don't have a problem with the game forcing players to use the Development Track, but I'd be
surprised to see a strategy that doesn't require at least a moderate amount of attention towards the
Development Track.)

I would be curious to hear how you used the Boatmen...

Thu Dec 3, 2015 11:52 pm
Author: Lapsus
So I played with a new set of players (didn't know them before) today at Toronto's TABSCon XLV.
Anyone who thinks a score above 200 isn't legit hasn't been doing it right. It's easily reproducible if
you manage to get the right buildings. And if people don't race you for gears at the start and you
manage to get 6, my feeling it's that it's pretty much 'gg' at that point.

Final scores were 227, 123, 113.

- The office, by itself, got me 9+8+7+7+6+5+4+3 = 49 pts. That building is not balanced.
- We were playing TMG's bathhouse, and I feel it's still too strong.
- The events favored high points (early taxes & pilgrimages, latish trading days).
- Yellow player mistakenly sent one of his base 4 tokens on charitable mission for his last development
which netted him a lots of points. But he still finished at 123.
- Grey got depleted first, brown got depleted even if plague added 2, red would have been but plague
gave back 2.
- Blue and white were not popular.

Here's a picture of the end-game:

Sat Dec 5, 2015 10:06 pm

Author: joeeoj010
Second play here, i can concur that a gear focused and tech building strategy combined with the most
broken of the buildings, office and bathhouse, can easily get you 200+ points. Not sure if there is any
other competitive strategy.
Not exactly enthralled with the game I guess, basically the non-interactiv e nature means there is
going to always be a dominant strategy.
Mon Dec 7, 2015 7:47 am
Author: mike18xx
You're only going to get 200 versus a table of inexperienced competitors who let you have everything
you want on a silver platter, uncontested.

I.e., players who do nothing except take farmers, craftsmen and monks every turn for the four turns of
the game.
Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:54 pm
Author: mike18xx
Lapsus wrote:
The office, by itself, got me 9+8+7+7+6+5+4+3 = 49 pts. That building is not balanced.

Compare to...

... Wool Manufacturer + (stack of a dozen wool) = 48 in goods

... Cellar + stroked a dozen turns = 48 coins

I imagine your Office would have suffered if other players had made an effort to get in your way
building trading posts in front of you (i.e., the Horse Wagon's owner is a particularly irksome opponent,
as he can specifically target the player with the Office to snipe building spots out from under him, or
whomever else he thinks is "ahead").

It goes without saying that if someone takes the Office, that other players take the Tavern and Horse
Wagon to ensure the Office-holder doesn't also acquire them and commence cake-walking worry-free.

The 49 points your Office generated isn't what demolished your opponents -- it's that, plus all the
goods you picked up, plus the (9+1)x(6) = 60 points you also generated from trading posts and
citizen.
Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:21 pm
Author: mussels
Like several of the posters here, I don't think technology gears are mandatory.

I've played two games:

1) Came in as a close second, with only one gear (relied heavily on schoolhouse + the extra draws
from knights)
2) Won the game handily with 0 gears, lots of monks, lots of tile draws + the Bathhouse, and heavy
use of the Town Hall early to weed out the extra knights and farmers.

The problem I see with the gears is that they're not mobile. If you're going to use them at all, make
sure they're on buildings you're going to use nearly every turn, and then make an effort to use them
as much as you can to get your money's worth out of them.
Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:23 am
Author: actaion
mussels wrote:
Like several of the posters here, I don't think technology gears are mandatory.

2) Won the game handily with 0 gears, lots of monks, + the Bathhouse,

Doesn't seem like a valid strategy to me. How many points did you make?
And what did you use the bathhouse for? Only with gears you can use the double activation, without
gears it's almost useless. (Except of course if you played it with the imbalanced rule variant which
makes the bathhouse overpowered, in which case your results cannot be taken serious anyway).
Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:16 am
Author: mike18xx
actaion wrote:
How many points did you make?

That. Right. There.

If you're not into the 160s or better, you shouldn't beat experienced players.
Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:35 pm
Author: therearerules
I've played a couple of games recently where the winner (a friend first, and me after) won with over
180 points and has been untouchable for most of the game. They both began as start player- turn 1
bathhouse. Turn 2 the building which turns scholars into monks. After that you race up the
development track, and unless there's a concerted effort to stop you building trading posts, or you play
ridiculously, you're golden.
Sun Apr 3, 2016 10:34 am
Author: mike18xx
If you are the start player, you will not get first choice of level II buildings (unless no one else buys
them first round).

If "groupthink" is to rush buildings for two turns, the holder of Bath House (usually player #1) should
not get either the School or the Laboratory. (Even so, I'm not convinced it's an automatic 180 points
unless you're playing with unmodified, i.e. "broke" Bath House.)

-- If the game does have a flaw, it's the commonly-seen phenomena of the players downstream of the
newbies cake-walking. (If there were a changing yet not-random turn-order mechanic rather than
simple rotate-around-the-table, it would solve much of this.)

Newbies underestimate the necessity of rushing gears and the castle (which in turn delays them
building trading posts, and pretty much everything else as well). A sharpie who straight up rushes
gears (going village-then-castle) can be a formidable opponent of a player who builds three buildings in
a row (and this is particularly true the fewer players there are, as "rusher" will have plenty left to
choose from when he finally does buy buildings).
Sun Apr 3, 2016 11:26 am
Author: mfaulk80
therearerules wrote:
I've played a couple of games recently where the winner (a friend first, and me after) won with over 180 points and has
been untouchable for most of the game. They both began as start player- turn 1 bathhouse. Turn 2 the building which
turns scholars into monks. After that you race up the development track, and unless there's a concerted effort to stop you
building trading posts, or you play ridiculously, you're golden.

Which version of the Bathhouse are you playing with?

Sun Apr 3, 2016 2:18 pm
Author: xanalor
therearerules wrote:
Unless there's a concerted effort to stop you building trading posts

THIS is the crux of it. In my experience too many new players undervalue trading posts and don't start
working on them until too far into the game. I've held several big wins with different strategies, but in
every instance I had a 3-5 round start getting a trading post engine going (where you drop a post and
move every round) and THAT was what made the biggest difference. And you don't need a particular
building to get posts going, just 7-8 worker draws and a technology wheel or two.

I think that for a game to truly be competetive, the players have to NOT let
One person run rampant on the map.
Sun Apr 3, 2016 7:16 pm
Author: therearerules
mfaulk80 wrote:
therearerules wrote:
I've played a couple of games recently where the winner (a friend first, and me after) won with over 180 points and has
been untouchable for most of the game. They both began as start player- turn 1 bathhouse. Turn 2 the building which
turns scholars into monks. After that you race up the development track, and unless there's a concerted effort to stop
you building trading posts, or you play ridiculously, you're golden.

Which version of the Bathhouse are you playing with?

Draw 2 return 1 that you have drawn. When played using that version I can't see it not being the best
first move.
Mon Apr 4, 2016 12:40 am
Author: wodan46
Looking at action efficiency in a vacuum is problematic. Characters are scarce, meaning that
prioritizing some early may mean you could get locked out of and denied others. Action spaces have
limited uses, especially given the total and per-player limits on characters. Citizen Tiles are first come
first served. Many characters are garbage unless you seriously commit to development, or dump in the
town hall for immediate gains over long term investment, or limit your ability to get what you want
when you want it. Most action spaces also favor development.

TL;DR version: There are too many things to focus on, whatever you do focus on will be at the expense
of being denied, delayed, or otherwise screwed on other things.
Fri Feb 3, 2017 3:19 am
Author: Lapsus
This is a fairly old thread. Since then, we've played enough to confirm that original thesis. If you have
top tier players, there is no real path to victory that doesn't involve rushing gears.

Don't get me wrong, I've played with plenty of people who, like you, insisted that everything was
balanced and that doing gears meant sacrificing something else and that all strategies are viable.
Things is however, there isn't a single such player I lost to.

Orleans is a beautifully realized game, it's actually fun to play and interesting. If you feel it's balanced
for your group and no one has actually managed to figure the alpha path and hammer it to victory
every game, then by all means, enjoy it while it last =) For me, having played with various groups and
types of player, the game became scripted enough that I decided to trade it and move on.
Fri Feb 3, 2017 2:56 pm