ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW

with

CLARENCE M. YOUNG

by

RAYMOND HENLE, DIRECTOR

July 19, 1971

at

Sedona, Arizona

For the
HERBERT HOOVER PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY
West Branch, Iowa
and the
HOOVER INSTITUTION ON WAR, REVOLUTION AND PEACE
Stanford, California

Copyright 1972 Herbert Hoover Presidential Library Association, Inc .

YOUNG, CLARENCE MARSHALL, aviation consultant

Born at Colfax # Iowa

Son Theodore G, and Ella (Foy) Y .

Student Drake U, ; LL .B ., Yale U ., 1910

Married Lois Moran, Fob . 10, 1935

1 son, Timothy Marshall .

Admitted to Iowa bar,'1910, and began practice at Des Moines, Iowa

Served as exec . sec . Municipal Research Bureau, Des Moines, 1922-25

Director, aeronautics, U .S . Dept . Commerce, 1926-29

Assistant secretary of commerce for aeronautics, 1929-33

Mgr . Transpacific Div ., Pan Am . Airways, 1934-45

V,P . Pan American World Airways, 1950-59, rat .

Member Civil Aeronautics Board, Wash ., D, C, 1946-47

Member Air Service, U .S . Army, 1917-19

Overseas 18 mos ., including 5 mos . a s prisoner of war, Austria

Col ., U .S . Air Forces Res ., rat e

Decorated Comdr, Order Crown of Italy

Named Elder Statesman of Aviation, Nate Assn . Aeroa, Asso,

Fellow Am . Inst, Aeros . and Astronautics, Royal Aero e Soc e London

Member Acacia

Republican . Mason

Clubst Yale (New York)

The Family (San Francisco)
Army and Navy (Washington)

Homes P . 0 . Box 1088, Sedoua, Arixe 86336

------------

See also in the appendix hereto list of published articles

by Colonel Young, a newspaper article dated 10/20/69
by Elizabeth Rigby and an article by Donald R . Whitnah in
Ia :St .P~ "Safer Skyways" entitled "Federal Control of
Aviation, 1926-1966 ." Also a column by Will Rogers
dated April 20 ; 1933 .
Hon . Clarence M . Young
Assistant Secretary of Commerce
Washington, D . C ,

Before I leave Washington

I want to express to you my sincere apprecia-
tion for the service you have given to the
American people, and the cooperation you have
shown the Administration over these years . You
have contributed enormously to the building up
of aviation in the United States and you may
well be proud of your accomplishments . I want
you to know that I am' grateful for' your friend-
ship to me pergonally,
 NOTE

Colonel Young wrote as follows on

June 27, 1972 :

I opened two boxes of files I thought

were beyond recovery, having looked
everywhere for them---at least I
thought so . They showed up on the
end of a storage inventory, the items
having been transferred to another
storage location without being
investigated enroute . They have some
worthwhile material and I want to
include much of it in our interview
material ."

The researcher should consult the

library records to see if a second
volume of Colonel Young recollections
have been deposited or if the material
referred to has been deposited other-
wise in the library at West Branch
along with Colonel Young's papers . R .H .
This interview was by Raymond Henley Director
of
the Program . It was edited and approved by the

respondent and by Mr. Henle and Catherine J

. Kenny,
Assistant Director of the Program . Research on

names, dates and historic references was by

Mr. Henle
and Miss Kenny . The transcription from raw tape was

by Doris M. Goddard and Mary F. Hurley . The typing

of the library copies was by Mary F. Hurley .

Tapes 420-421

MR. HENLE : Colonel Young, the chief significance of

this interview will be your association and participation in the de-

velopment of civil aviation during the time Mr. Hoover was the Secretary

of Commerce ofthe United States, and President of the United States,

following the passage of the Civil Aeronautics Act in 1926. But

first I would like to ask you about your recollections of the Hoovers

as individuals, as private citizens, rather than officials of the U. S.

Government . You and Mr. Hoover were born in Iowa and you at least

spent a portion of your younger years there .

COL . YOUNG : Of course, I knew of him as a prominent and

highly respected citizen of the state, and also that he was very suc-

cessful in his specialized engineering accomplishments in a substan

tial number of countries abroad, where he was accorded great respect

and confidence . I did not have the pleasure of meeting him until the

early part of 1926, while he was Secretary of Commerce .

MR . HENLE : There seems some reason to believe that your

initial meeting with Secretary Hoover was something more than

just a
handshake affair . Would you care to say how it was brought about?

COL . YOUNG: Surely . However, if I may, I would like to

lay some background which led to my interest in

meeting him. Prior to
World War I, I was practicing law in Des Moines, having
qualified to
do so by securing an LL .H, from Yale University
Law School and passing
 the Iowa State Bar examinations . I found it an interesting, but not

very exciting occupation, and had made up my

mind that if and when
the United States officially announced its full
participation in the
war then existing between England, France and
Germany, I would immed-
iately enlist in the Aviation Section of the
Signals Corps (the begin-
ning of what is now the U.S .A .F.) . It did, and I did, and in due

course was piloting a Caproni bomber on the

Italian front, where the
Piave River separated the Italian, American
and German, Austrian
forces . I was shot down, with my Italian crew of bomber
and machine-
gunner, by anti-aircraft fire from the ground
. We managed to get the
powerless plane righted from an upside-down
position and discovered
it was not going to fall apart -- at least not
immediately . We headed
in the direction of the Piave River, hoping
to get across to the

Italian side, but we ran out of altitude and cracked

up in a muddy
tributary of the river on the Austrian side.
We walked away with
only some cuts and bruises but, needless to say,
we were met by an
escort of armed Austrians and sent to Vienna
for interviews . I was
separated from the Italian crew and did not
see them again . However,
when I returned to Padua before the Armistice
was signed, they had
been heard from and were getting along okay.

Seemingly I was the first American to show up in

Vienna because
I appeared to be a curiosity to the Austrians
on the street . The
interview lasted about four days . The questioning was pressing but
the questioners didn't seem to be very
well equipped and dragged it
out interminably . Their questions were lengthy, after much
consultation ;
 3"

my answers were mostly "yes," '"no," "I don't know ."

When the affair
was terminated I was sent to a P .O .W. camp in the
southern part of
Austria . The address is, or was, "Kriegsgefangenenlager,
Offizier-
station, Salzerbad, Kleinzell bei Hainfeld, Nieder
Oesterrich ." It
had to be included on an outgoing envelope, and a
small one at that.

MR . HENLE mid amused chuckle : Did you ever learn

to spell the total without having to refer to a
book or library or
memo?

COL . YOUNG : No, it was too much for me, but I made my

own memo. I printed it on a large card, in large letters,

and stuck
it on the wall-in plain sight .

The "patrons" already in the P.O .W. camp

were for the most part
British and Canadian commercial sea Captains
whose vessels had been
torpedoed or otherwise sunk. In addition, there were eight or ten

Russian officers who were without a country .

It had been taken over
by the Communists and they doubtless would
have been shot immediately,
had they showed up. There was a British Major whose name I have
for-
gotten, and a Canadian Air Force Lieutenant who
had but recently
arrived . He and I shared quarters and became good
friends . Life in
camp was dull -- no latreens to dig, no books
to read, no playing cards,
not much food, etc . etc . -- but the Red Cross
was in Switzerland, and we
soon had supplies coming our way. However, it was not a smooth arrange-
ment. The Austrians, too, were in a bad way as far
as food was concerned,
and at the borderline the customs officials
were helping themselves to
 our inbound packages, and passing along some practically
empty con-
tainers . We soon got the loss reduced to a reasonable minimum
by
asking the Red Cross to do more secure packing, which it did
very
effectively . But, camp life and how the Canadian Lieutenant and
I
got to Italy before the Armistice was signed is another
story for
another time . The need now is to get back to your question, Ray, as

to what brought about my initial meeting with Mr. Hoover

in 1926 . I
didn't mean to lay so much "background" but I couldn't seem
to find
an appropriate break-away point .

MR . HENLE : It was very interesting and I am glad you

included it .

COL . YOUNG : Then perhaps I should add that in 1918 the

Caproni bomber was considered a very large airplane .

It was also a
tri-motored one, and it was not difficult to visualize the
large body
containing several seats of some kind for, say, emergency
use of
military personnel when the bomber was not on a regular mission .

That thought led to the idea of windows, so it wasn't long

until I
had a cabin passenger plane ready to go. This firmed my resolution

to get identified with aviation at the earliest opportunity

following
the war .

As to my first meeting with Mr. Hoover, it was arranged

for me
by the then senior Senator from Iowa, one of the most
highly regarded
members of the U. S . Senate during his several terms, I believe this
was in the early part of 1926, and I was then living
in Philadelphia .
 5.

At the appointed place and time I joined the

Senator and we went
directly to Mr. Hoover's office . He was then Secretary of Commerce .

The usual introductory formalities were

observed, including the hand-
shake . The Senator was then prepared
to leave and sort of looked
askance at me w
I immediately asked Secretary Hoover if he could

spare me a few minutes . He answered affirmatively, motioned me

to
a chair, and the Senator departed . I told Mr. Hoover that I was in
the aviation business, such as it was
at the time, and was interested
in the impending report of the Morrow
Board, and brought up several
of the provisions which had been made known by
the Board . I received
clear and prompt answers . He also asked me some questions about the

problems involved in establishing the standards

of airworthiness for
various types of aircraft, the different
classifications for pilots,
air traffic rules, etc . At the end of about fifteen minutes I
offered
an apology for taking too much of his
time, expressed my thanks and
bowed out . No reference of any kind was made to
personnel requirements .
However, there is a sequel to that which
sort of automatically fits in
at another location .

MR . HENLE : Very well. Let us remember to insert it. You

mentioned that you were then living in
Philadelphia . Does it follow
that you were identified with an aviation
activity there?

COL . YOUNG : Yes, and a most interesting one. It came into

being while I was still in Des Moines
running a flight training school,
doing some "barnstorming" with the "Jennies"
(the JN-4D's, preliminary
 training aircraft of the military, hundreds of which had become
avail-
able for civil use following the war) . By this time some aircraft of

more recent design, better motive power, etc . had

reached the market .
I was about to get one and start a service to various
small but
important communities that had no bus service or any other
transporta-
tion except horse and buggy, when I received a telegram
from a wartime
friend in Philadelphia . He wanted to know if I would be interested in

coming to Philadelphia to assist in putting together

an active aviation
exhibit to be part of the program that the State of
Pennsylvania was
organizing to celebrate its Sesquicentennial . Needless to say, I was
interested and soon on my way to Philadelphia . It proved to be a

fortunate move . The Civil Aeronautics Act was in the process of

being
put together by the Morrow Board for submission
to Congress and its
enactment seemed a certainty . It meant that Civil Aviation would be

officially recognized, aircraft would need to be licensed

for airworthiness,
pilots licensed for competency in various grades,
aircraft maintenance
regulated, flight rules established and enforced, etc .,
etc . And, of
equal consequence, a Federal Airways system would
progressively come
into being, including aids for day and night
flying. The door to air
transportation would be thrown wide open to many
undertakings, some of
them not yet thought of, and ultimately would
make itself felt in nearly
every form of transportation . It meant, too, that Government funds

would be available for the orderly development

of an airways system ;
that the hundreds of airports needed throughout
the country would be
aided and encouraged . It was to be a far-reaching break for air

transportation .
 MR . HENLE : Was the Ford Tri-motor nearing completion

at that time?

COL . YOUNG : There were indications that one was almost

ready for flight testing, but, as you know, the elder Mr. Ford was

not disposed to release information about the internal activities of

his company . In this particular case, I was told he was somewhat

reluctant about getting involved in the production of aircraft at

all ; that it took Bill Stout and his engineers, plus other officials

in the company, to finally get a go-ahead . I don't recall when the

first Ford was flown . I was busy trying to keep up with the project

I was working on for the Philadelphia Sesquicentennial . However, mid-

1926 "rings a bell" for some reason or other. It could have been

identified with the Ford test flight or the enactment of the Civil

Aeronautics Act, or both. In any case, the Ford was flown, the Civil

Aeronautics Act became a law, and the orderly development of civil

aviation was about to get underway .

MR. HENLE : Didn't the then existing Boeing Company build

a twin-engine, cabin type passenger and mail plane for transcontinental

service?

COL. YOUNG: Yes, and at that stage of air service develop-

ment it was a very helpful and encouraging addition . Also, I believe its

several subsidiaries were consolidated and became United Air Lines .

American Airlines acquired several Fokker aircraft, as did Western Air

Express . Other air mail carriers continued normal operation until

better passenger equipment became available .

MR . HENLE : Colonel Young, did you know William P, .MacCrackenp'Jr,

before he came to Washington to take on the assignment of the

Assistant
Secretary of Commerce for Aviation?

COL . YOUNG : No, I didn't . I knew he was a prominent

lawyer in Chicago ; also that he was the secretary of the American

Bar

Association . When he took office in Washington I fully intended to

call on him and see if I could be of any assistance in getting things

underway . However, I was kept quite busy with the Sesquicentennial

project which I had made a commitment to finish and I didn't get

an
opportunity as soon as I had expected to . Shortly thereafter he

telephoned me and asked if, when I had an opportunity, I would stop

in his office for a sort of visit to get acquainted and to chat .

I
created an early opportunity to follow through and go to his office,

and I called his secretary and found that it would be convenient,

so
I immediately went over and got acquainted with him .

Quite naturally, the principal subject matter of discussion was

the Civil Aeronautics Act . He had made a study of it, of course, and

was quite anxious to get started on giving effect to it, but it

seemed
he was in such demand to visit chambers of commerce and other
organiza-
tions throughout the country to discuss it with them that he
couldn't
seem to make much headway with the needed organization of personnel
.
 When I was about ready to leave, he brought up the subject of

personnel again and asked if I would be interested in coming into

the department and taking over the operations section of it and get

this underway . I told him I would like very much to do so; that I

was much more interested in the aviation future than I was in the

Sesquicentennial, but I was under some sort of a commitment which I

might or might not be able to give up, but that I would discuss this

with the Centennial people and see what I could work out and would

let him know.

On the way back to my office I couldn't help but do some think-

ing about it and I arrived at the conclusion there was no real good

reason why I couldn't request the Centennial people to relieve me and

have somebody out there take it over because there were several people

directly concerned and familiar with it, and that's what I did . The

end result was that they agreed with me that the opportunity which had

been offered was really worthwhile and that they would manage somehow

to continue with the project for the Centennial and get it worked out.

The following day I called BillMaeCracken . It had become "Bill" and

"Clarence" as a result of the first meeting, which was a good start, I

thought. I told him that I could get away in about ten days if that

was agreeable to him, which it was, so in due course I went into the

department, which was in the same office building as the Department of

Commerce .

I got settled in and began to learn what it was all about,

and it was complicated and there was a large project ahead to be worked
out from the operations point of view, to say nothing about the other

things . The availability of personnel was not a problem, because many

of the pilots and others who had been engaged in the barnstorming with

the "Jennies" were getting a bit fed up on it and anxious to get

settled in some place .

In any case, we were making headway in getting the operations

department functioning . We had set up the areas throughout the country

where local representatives of the department would be stationed to

license pilots, check airworthiness requirements, enforce air traffic

rules, etc . Meanwhile, Bill had apparently recommended to

President Hoover that I be designated Director of Aviation, a pleasing

event for me, of course .

We had many meetings with the aircraft manufacturers to get into

an agreement on the airworthiness features or requirements to be estab-

lished for the various types of civil aircraft ; also for pilots, as to

the appropriate qualifications for the different grades of licenses to

be issued . Also, meanwhile Bill had been conferring with several

already-existing departments of long standing which were specialists

in the area of services that were needed for scheduled aircraft opera-

tions, as, for example, the Weather Bureau for reporting and communica-

tions, the Bureau of Lighthouses for lighting equipment, the Bureau of

Standards for the technical requirements in aircraft airworthiness and

other related matters . It had been decided that every practicable

existing department would be utilized rather than to set up new ones,

because the latter would be too expensive and just a duplication . When
that combination of assistance was put together, Bill was sort of

"chairman of the board", so to speak, of the group, so far as it con-

cerned aeronautics .

MR . HENLE : Colonel Young, let me now ask you about the

development of air transportation abroad, with particular reference to

Europe -- Italy, Germany and England .

COL . YOUNG: In the latter part of 1928 or early in 1929

I asked Bill Matracken if it wouldn't be a good idea to find out what

was going on abroad with this, and suggested that one of us go over

and take a look. He agreed that it was desirable provided I would

make the trip . That sort of left me with no choice, so I put one of

our small planes on the "LEVIATHAN", which was then in service, and

started out . The plane was offloaded at Southampton, the wings re-

placed, the fuel tanks were loaded, and I started for Croydon Airport

enroute to London . Enroute I discovered a leak in the tank that was

spreading too much fuel around, and found a likely looking field in

which to land . In doing so I learned that I had committed three

errors : one was departing Southampton without first getting permission

from London to fly to Croydon, another was making the first landing

without notifying London about it at the time, and the third was plug-

ging the leak and proceeding to Croydon still without permission. How-

ever, it was all forgiven when I told them a plane of the size I was

using was not equipped with air-to-ground communication .

I made trips to a number of the larger cities in Europe -- that

is, in the countries I just named -- and I was welcomed cordially at

 all of them, and there was a freedom of discussion
that made the trip
very much worthwhile . I am quite sure the same feeling was recipro-

cated .

Now when I returned from the overseas trip, Bill

told me his
time for getting back into the law practice was
imminent and that he
had - already discussed it with President Hoover .
I asked him if he
had a fixed date. He had, and unexpectedly it turned out to be about

ten days or two weeks before the beginning of

the 1930 Depression,
which persisted in one way or another until World
War II. It was
rough on air transportation but, nevertheless,
it kept going and ex-
tending throughout the entire period . Many things contributed to it .
The lifesavers were the aircraft built by
Ford and Boeing, and the
DC-1's and DC-2's and DC-3's built by the Douglas
Company that began
the airmail, the impending progress in the
federal airway system, and
the aids to airport development by funds from
federal sources, and it
certainly made a lot of difference .

MR. HENLE : Colonel Young, what do you recall about

Lindbergh's trans-ocean flight to Paris in 1927?

COL . YOUNG : I recall a somewhat amusing incident iden-

tified with it . Prior to his flight to Paris, he was

flying airmail
from St. Louis to Chicago for a company in St.
Louis . It was using
the De Havilland type plane -- a war surplus
. There were no aids on
the route to Chicago ; it was almost entirely
a visual type operation .
No radio comunication had yet been developed .
Twice he encountered
blind flying as he was approaching Chicago, and finally in both cases

he was obliged to use his parachute, taking the mail with him.

Lindbergh was a skillful pilot and I'm sure it hurt him as much to

lose the planes as it dial the company . I had only recently taken over

the operating department in the Aeronautics Branch and was

looking for
qualified personnel, and I knew Lindbergh would be a winner if he
was
interested and available . I asked him to come in and see me, which he

did. We discussed the idea and he was interested. However, he said

he was committed to a pending project, and as soon as it was accom-

plished he would come back and meet with me again . Of course, it de-

veloped that his project was the flight to Paris . Soon after he left I

learned that a group in St. Louis had financed a long-range airplane

for him and that it was finishing completion behind closed doors in

San Diego; also, that it would be taken out soon for test flights and

tests of other kinds . Someone in the factory reminded Charlie that under

the new regulations it would be necessary for him to have the airplane

licensed and also to get a pilot's license for himself . Apparently he

had been too busy with _/other things to give these matter) attention .

When his plane was out of the factory and ready for flight testing,
I
was in Los Angeles and decided to go down to San Diego to see
if I could
be of any assistance to him in getting the license !natter straightened

out . In his book entitled "The Spirit of St . Louis" he wrote the

following :

Major Young is in San Diego and he wants to see me

while here . He commands my Reserve Squadron in Kansas
and, as of interest, he was shot down while flying a
bomber over Italy's Austrian front during the war . He
 returned from prison camp to enter law practice in
Des Moines . Two weeks of active duty during the
summer helps to keep him in training as an officer
and pilot . I gave some instructions in the Air
Services last year since I had just graduated from
Kelly Field, and we formed a personal friendship .
He recently was appointed Chief of the Air Regulations
Division of the Government's new Aeronautics Branch
in the Department of Commerce .

Now he has come to see me and my "Spirit of St. Louis" .

I will ask him about the new regulations for civil
aircraft . In the past all a man needed to fly a plane
was money to buy one and ability to get it in the air.
Now both pilot and aircraft must be licensed . The
"Spirit of St. Louis" will have to carry a registra-
tion number painted on its wing . Major Young then
spoke up saying, "We will see that your applications
are acted on right away. We want to get a number on
your wing when you take off, and we certainly want you
to be a licensed pilot when you land in Europe . We
will give you an NX license which will let you do about
anything you want to." "What's an NX license," I asked .
He said: "N is an international code letter assigned
the United States planes flying outside the country .
They have to carry it. X stands for experimentation .
It authorizes you to make a modification without getting
government approval . Of course, you won't carry passen-
gers with an X license, but I guess you won't want to do
that anyway," as he glances at the huge gas tanks where
the passengers' seats would normally be . "You won't
have any trouble about licenses," he said.

MR . HENLE : We have shown how you came to be appointed

Director of the Aeronautics Branch and we have talked some

about the
early problems of aviation and also problems of the Aeronautics
Branch
of the Department of Commerce . Do any other things occur to you?

COL . YOUNG : I am sure there are numerous other things that

we could talk about, but I doubt that they would add to the
general out-
line or to the over-all picture . We had frequent meetings with the air-

craft manufacturers and were able to come through with

regulations,
rules of the road, airworthiness provisions ) etc . -- all the differ-

ent aspects of it which go into an aircraft together -- getting it

in service, keeping it airworthy, and making sure the pilot is aware

of his responsibility .

MR. HENLE : We have to keep in mind the elementary nature

of aeronautics at the point, too .

COL. YOUNG : Yes, of course .

MR. HENLE : As Lindbergh said himself, "All a pilot

needed was an aircraft and the ability to get it in the air ."

COL. YOUNG: The Fokker aircraft with wood components was

in substantial use in passenger service, but with misgivings on our

part, and we were on the point of grounding them because Fokker couldn't .

or wouldn't produce the structural and technical specifications of them.

We missed the boat by one day in taking that action . A wing broke away

from a Fokker and it was a fatal event for the passengers aboard, includ-

ing Knute Rockne, the famous football coach of Notre Dame .

MR. HENLE : Yes, coach in the days of "The Four Horsemen"

and their great football prowess . It was one of those early blows to

civil aviation .

COL . YOUNG : It certainly was . I was then Assistant

Secretary of Commerce for Aeronautics, having been appointed by

President Hoover soon after Bill f4w.racken resigned . I immediately

grounded the Fokkers and called an unpublicized meeting of the com-

panies using them. Mr. Fokker endeavored to attend but he was unani-

mously ruled out, so he sat in my front office inwardly berating me,

no doubt, and generally being unpleasant . In the meeting the ground-

ing of the aircraft was unanimous as far as passenger service was

concerned . However, the companies using the Fokkers felt they should

be permitted to continue carrying the mail, because it would not only

cause a serious problem in the Post Office Department but would be

unnecessarily troublesome to the users of airmail generally . After

much discussion, it was finally agreed they could be used for airmail

only, provided parachutes were used by the pilots, It was but a short

time until the technical papers heretofore referred to showed up. Our

engineering staff soon determined the probable weak area in the struc-

ture .

MR . HENLE : At this time was thought given and were deci-

sions reached in respect to formulation of air roads?

COL . YOUNG : Yes, and "rules of the road" . The construc-

tion of the airways system was handicapped because of the scarcity of

air navigation aids which had not yet been developed . Communication

by radio between ground and air was badly needed . Its availability

would have opened up a whole new approach to both day and night flying .

Weather reporting and a variety of problems would have been quickly

overcome .

MR . HENLE : You are talking about the early thirties?

 COL . YOUNG : It was largely 1928 and 1929 .

MR . HENLE : So then by the thirties we had some roads laid

down, didn't we? What I mean is the way we sustain the avenues of air

in which a plane will go one way and another will

come the other way,
and the altitudes at which they fly, so that more
than one plane can
fly safely in the same direction .

COL . YOUNG: That is essentially correct, but I can only

reiterate that the lack of communication remained a

handicap .

MR . HENLE : Not even men of scientific background had much

to go on, did they?

COL . YOUNG : Not so far as navigation aids were concerned .

It was not so difficult to pick a route from one coast to

another for
an airway . There were several of those airways constructed,
but, for
the most part, visual flying had to prevail .

MR . HENLE : With flashlights and beacon lights and things

of that sort, I take it .

COL . YOUNG : The first thing we had was an arrangement

with the weather bureau and teletype sys em to do

some weather forecast-
ing with information made available/to `air carriers,
and an attempt was
made to set some limits, according to the reports
that came from the
weather bureau . Also, there were so-called emergency airports
provided
at intervals, on which there were rotating beacon
lights . The lights
 had to be developed so the rotating would be distinctive and would

locate the field for the pilot . The pilot was pretty much on his own

in those days .

MR . HENLE : He was flying in the great wild blue yonder .

COL. YOUNG : That is right. But aids were built up

gradually . The weather bureau devised a means of teletype communica-

tion that was very effective . Special forecasts were sent to weather

stations at airports, which was very helpful . It all had to be a

special operation . Everything had to be built from the ground up,

and all this took time . As you said earlier, there had to be rules

of staying on this or that side of the airway and

flying at different
altitudes, but until reliable communication was developed
there was no
i
way for one pilot to know where the other was flying in bad
weather or
at night, unless he actually saw his plane . The Bureau of Standards

and several other departments, including the Bureau and

personnel from
the Aeronautics Branch of the Department of Commerce,
were more directly
related to this and knew the problems . It was the Bureau of Lighthouses

that undertook cooperating in the development of beacons

at the emergency
airport locations and elsewhere along the airways . They and the Bureau

of Standards and all who were interested and could contribute

went into
the project .

MR. HENLE : You can see that . It is interesting that here

was something that ships for hundreds of years had
depended on, and now
they quickly became helpful to this new method of
transportation . The
Geodetic Survey had been plotting the areas for surface transporta-

tion and had maps of the area, didn't they?

COL . YOUNG : Certainly . You could get the indication of

where and approximately what the area was when you wanted to get to

an emergency airport .

MR . HENLE : And the pilot knew where to find one .

COL . YOUNG: Yes, but it had to be a place sufficiently

prominent so you could locate it . All the aforementioned departments

were helpful . They were as interested in getting results as we were .

The Bureau of Standards did some wonderful work on the testing of

engines andithe manner in which it should be done . They and the

Aeronautics Department of the Chamber of Commerce cooperated on the

development of blind flying . It was demonstrated by one of our pilots,

the late Jim Kinney . I went along as emergency pilot . He flew from

Washington to Newark "under the hood", following a radio beam system

that had been worked out, and landed at Newark Airport without having

seen a thing.

MR . HENLE : That early? Remarkable : What a brave young

fellow he was:

COL. YOUNG : It was not so much bravery as it was skill,

and the radio equipment that had been developed .

MR. HEHLE : This was a pilot in the 1930x, during

 20.

Mr. Hoover's Presidency, flying blind

and seeing nothing -- seeing
nothing except his instrument?

COL. YOUNG : Yes ; otherwise I would not have been

there
as check pilot . On arrival at the airport there were
two reporters,
one from the New York Times and one from the
New York Tribune . They
knew we were coming in, and, being true
reporters, they had to see
it to believe it. So we invited each of them to take a quick
trip as
emergency pilot . They did and they were
convinced of the efficacy of
the instrument that first made
"blind flying" possible . It has had
some improvements through the years,
but the principle is still the
same .

MR. HENLE : That is a fascinating facet of this story

.
You were faced here with doing
things that would increase public con-
fidence in aviation .

COL . YOUNG : Yes . That was a primary objective all the

way through . We realized that flying had to be
demonstrated to be
safe -- that there had to be rules,
regulations, limitations, etc .
By the time President Hoover
left office in March 1933, the ground-
work had been done in the way of
lights, communications, instrument
flying, with many men from all departments
and bureaus contributing
their time and energy to lay the
foundation of what is now our airways
system.

MR. HENLE : You seem to be answering a question

I intended
 to ask -- namely, whether you believed that Mr . Hoover was genuinely

sold on the idea that aircraft would really take an important part

in the transportation industry of the country .

COL. YOUNG: I want to say that I am positive he was .

I am quite sure he originated the idea of the Morrow Board study and

brought it into being via the Office of President Coolidge .

MR. HENLE : Was there any indication in this most inter-

esting period, the Depression, with the economic situation getting

worse and the President engaged at least twenty hours a day

with grave
problems, and yet he apparently had time to encourage operations
of
this kind?

COL . YOUNG : He never raised a question about it.

MR . HENLE : What kind of people did you find the Hoovers

during those days?

COL . YOUNG : They were "down to earth" people . They

remained so throughout his term of office . They lived in the White House

as easily and informally as in their own home, except for the

fixed
formalities normally observed for diplomatic and other social
require-
ments .

MR. HENLE : Well, now, if you are willing, I think we

could go into another phase of aviation that we haven't

touched on,
namely, the development of airmail service and the difficulties
with
airmail contracts .
 22 .

COL. YOUNG : I had very little to do with it .

Walter Brown was Postmaster General at the time, and

it was his
responsibility entirely . General Brown talked to me occasionally

on the telephone about some phase of mail delivery by

air . The
airways system was still largely on paper, and problems
naturally
arose .

MR . HENLE : Do you remember, were we flying mail at

night during any part of your official period?

COL . YOUNG: Yes, some mail was being flown at night

during the latter part of President Hoover's term, but

not by Civil
Aeronautics personnel .

MR . HENLE : That is correct . The airmail contracts came

along about the last year of the Hoover Administration

; at least, during
the Hoover period, because Walter Brown was then Postmaster
General, and
because the later investigations by Senator Hugo L .
Black and his com-
mittee were made into contracts let during the Hoover
Administration by
Brown .

COL. YOUNG: I believe that is right.

MR. HENLE : You see, Black was an important part of the

Roosevelt regime which was going to investigate alleged

iniquities and
big business and about everything that President
Hoover ever did. At
any rate, you were never involved in the airmail
contracts?
 2 3.

COL . YOUNG: No . They were entirely the responsibility

of Postmaster General Brown .

MR . HENLE : Were you ever called before the Black inves-

tigating committee?

COL . YOUNG: I had no connection with it and I avoided

it as much as I could .

MR. HENLE : Would I be correct in saying that you had no

knowledge of Jim Farley's action in the airmail contracts?

COL . YOUNG : Only by rumors from Washington and what

was published .

MR. HENLE : Looking at your biography, you were manager

of Air Regulations from 1926 to 1927, then Director of Aeronautics,

1927 to 1929, then Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Aeronautics

from 1929 to 1933, then Manager, Trams-Pacific Division of Pan

American
Airways, 1934 to 1945, then Vice-president after that . As manager of
the Pacific Division of Pan American Airways from 1934 to 1935,
I
assume you had nothing to do with airmail contracts then.

COL. YOUNG : No. That was all being handled by the

Post Office Department . There were some planes just carrying mail, I

think, but it was only a short time that mail was put on with

passengers and cargo .

 24.

MR . HENLE : Do you have any recollections of, or did you

have any association with, the James A . Farley cancellation of the

airmail contracts? You remember the situation. He cancelled when

the Black committee stirred up all this fuss . Farley, as Postmaster

General, cancelled the airmail contracts with civilian carriers, sub

stituted the military, and lost a number of flyers . I think it hurt

Farley personally .

COL . YOUNG : I have an especially warm spot in my heart

for Farley . He broke with Roosevelt finally, and after it was all

over he had the courage to go to Mr. Hoover and tell him that any

thing he might have said or done about him was in the field of party

politics . It was the beginning of a very pleasant friendship between

the two men. Many people always thought well of Farley for having

done that. He and Mr. Hoover had many long and pleasant associations

in the later part of Mr. Hoover's life.

MR . HENLE : Clarence, .I would like to have you discuss

anything you remember about Mr. Hoover as an individual . Is there

anything you could contribute from your seat of observation
as a
member of the Little Cabinet? You were in a position of influence .

COL. YOUNG: It depended upon the Cabinet officer, how

much an assistant secretary was in a position of influence . The man

who succeeded Mr . Hoover was Robert P, Lamont from Chicago
. He was
much like Mr. Hoover in the manner of being an executive .
His idea
 was to pick men in whom he had confidence, tell
them what he wanted,
and let them do it .

MR . HENLE : So you felt that working for Secretary of

Commerce Lamont was pretty much the same as when you

worked under
Hoover .

COL . YOUNG : His methods of being an executive were much

the same . All he wanted me to do was to keep him in touch

with any
events of consequence in aviation, so he would be
able to answer, or
at least display some knowledge of what was going on.
I was in con-
trol of getting appropriations and spending it.
There was one attempt
to make an interception by a lesser man in the
Commerce Department who
handled some statistics, but Secretary Lamont turned
it down.

MR. HENLE : You have told me your impression of

President Hoover's techniques and abilities . How do you think you

would have managed under President Roosevelt?

COL. YOUNG : Not having known the newly-elected President

at all, except in a second-handed fashion, I did

feel quite sure that
there would have been too much interference from
various sources ; that
I would have lasted but a short time . I go further and say we have

had no President like Hoover . He was the type of executive who gets

results without giving orders . The incoming administration was almost

entirely politically disposed . It would have been unsatisfactory to

have been in office long in that situation,

especially after seven years
with Mr. Hoover .
 26 .

MR . HENLE : And the man who came in had to have three

men to backstop him .

COL. YOUNG : Three were named to the position I'd held,

but none was Assistant Secretary .

MR . HENLE : Have you any information as to whether that

was a barrier to the development of the aviation industry?

COL . YOUNG: No. I received occasional notes from avia-

tion executives and other interested persons'saying, "Wish you were

back on the ,job ." It wouldn't have done any good, because it wasn't

the same sort of a "ball game" .

Before terminating this interview I want to pay

my respects to
the "Barnstormers" -- the flyers who returned from overseas
after
World War I . Most of them needed employment, but there were no jobs

to be had . Somehow the "Jennies" aircraft were declared surplus

property and were made available to them. They immediately turned

them into a money-making source, giving flight lessons,

taking passen-
gers on scenic tours, doing parachute ,jumping, wing-walking,
making
precision flights, doing shows at state and county fairs, etc .,
etc.
In addition, perhaps without realizing it, they kept aviation
alive
and in being by their activities, until civil aviation became
recognized
as a major form of transportation . My respect and regards to all of them.

MR. HENLE : This has been fine and I thank you for this

interview. We'll be in touch with you on copyright .

APPENDIX
WILL ROGERS Says : Amarillo, Tex . April 20 .--
Just flew in here headed West . We had
to come in mighty high to dodge all the
farms and ranches that were blowing
around down on the lower strata . It
isn't anything to be hit in the eye with
a cow that is blowing with the dust from
one ranch to another .

But with all her dust and all her drought,

she is a pretty country . This fellow
Clarence Young, the head of commercial
aviation, has done more for it than any-
body since the Wright brothers . I don't
know anything about his going to be re-
moved for Democratic purposes, but i t
will require 12 Democrats to replace
him adequately,

(The above column by Will Rogers

appeared in his syndicated news-
papers April 20, 1933 .)
 THE AERONAUTICS BRANCH
29
had been considered previously, MacCracken
recalled that he was
sworn into office on August 11, and became
Acting Secretary on
the following day when Hoover, Drake, and
Stephan B. Davis all'
went on vacation . The new appointee felt
overwhelmed by the
immensity of the task, together with the lack
of precedents within
the department, but acknowledged the
apparent friendliness to-
ward aviation manifested by several colleagues
and especially the
capable support of Harold Graves, his administrative
assistant.
Undoubtedly the choice of MacCracken proved to be
cellent move because of his ensuing an ex-
cautiousness in inaugurat-
ing unprecedented regulations upon an
industry which was grow-
ing so rapidly.5 During October, 1926,
MacCracken held a series
of conferences with representatives of the
aviation industry in
order to incorporate this group's suggestions into
the code of reg-
ulations, which was then redrafted and put
into effect at the end
of the year .

CLARENCE M . YOUNG
Another outstanding personality associated
with the depart-
ment's aviation chores was Clarence M. Young,
who was at first
Head of Air Regulations and then became Director
of Aeronautics
officially on July 1, 1927 . The relationship between
MacCracken
and Young proved to be a happy one, hardly that
of boss and as-
sistant but more like a team of equals .13 Young,
born in Colfax,
Iowa, moved to Des Moines at the age of
twelve . He later at-
tended Drake University for two years before
completing his legal
training at Yale University, whereupon
he returned to Des Moines
to practice law. Receiving his ground
flight training at Urbana,
Illinois, the lawyer-aviator reached the war front
and participated
in bombing raids on Austrian railroads .
During one of these
raids, his plane was hit by antiaircraft guns, forcing
him to crash.
He was captured and remained a prisoner of
war in Austria for
five months . Following World War I, he returned
to Des Moines,
selling surplus airplanes on the side while
encouraging, local of-
ficials to build an airport. Young had become a
good friend of
Charles Lindbergh and continued his own interests
by taking up
passengers and performing as a stunt flier at local
fairs. Youth-
ful in appearance, alert, and pleasant, Young
avoided giving
speeches, while MacCracken loved them. The
two lawyers often
worked at the office from eight Ili the morning until
late at night.
The Iowan, a good friend of Secretary Hoover,
shunned politics,
though he was extremely popular around
Washington ; not solely
 CHAPTER 2
30

not show
because he was a bachelor and good dancer . Young did
the
much excitement over flight for pure glory and was proud of
in
fact that he had never used a parachute (and did not intend to
flown during
the future), despite the thousands of miles he had
each year .
methodi-
Meanwhile, MacCracken planned diligently and
cally the initial regulatory functions of his organization through-
immediately after gaining
out the latter half o£ 1926 . Almost
the task of promoting avia-
appointment, he became a natural at
MacCracken predicted
tion, answering all inquiries to his office .
effect be-
at the end of August that the new -rules would go into
of the actual
fore the end of the current year, a correct estimate
Assistant Secretary
date, December 31 .7 By mid-September, the
hired
advised an inquirer that, the aircraft inspectors would not be
Hawaii was
until November or December .,' A military friend in
MacCracken
told that the days were not long enough to enable
Oc-
and his fellow workers to accomplish their goals.a As late as
tober 11, no airplanes had been authorized for use by employees
of the Aeronautics Branch .10

EARLY FUNCTIONS
rules
The very first objective in the implementation of the
rested with the hiring of experienced aviation men as inspectors
these in-
to work in the field throughout the country. The first of
when the regulations went into
dividuals were already in the field
enough men who met the
effect . It remained difficult to obtain
qualifications of above-average ability as pilots, suitable person-
ality, and a wide knowledge of the various aircraft and engines.
fiscal
Fifteen experienced inspectors were hired during the initial
year ; the goal for the next year was set at an additional thirty-five
airplanes
in order to keep up with the factory output of 100 new the thou-
per month, plus the registration and certification of
federal
sands of airmen and aircraft already in operation before
regulation ." The first official inspection of aircraft was com-
Lock-
pleted on December 7, 1926, by Supervising Inspector R. G.
wood within a day after receiving the request to inspect a plane
schedule
being delivered to Canada. He followed the Canadian
Lockwood, formerly a pilot in the Royal Air n

of inspection .12

Force, had later served as a civilian test pilot at McCook Field,

learning the intricacies of all the army airplanes. A major omis-
with
sion in the appropriations for the initial fiscal year had to do
the lack of traveling expenses for the new inspectors .13 Further-