Number

Talk Case Study

Becca Wilson

Pre-case Activity:

Mentally, think of as many solutions as you can to the problem, 3 x 100.
Then, think of as many solutions as you can to 3 x 200.
Using your solutions to the first two problems, mentally solve 3 x 199.

Answer the following questions:

1. What parts of your strategies for the first two problems did you use to help you compute
the third problem mentally?

2. How could you use those strategies to solve other number sentences with more
“unfriendly” numbers?


THE CASE

Setting:

Mrs. Herndon teaches fifth grade math at a suburban school in Daphne, Alabama.
This school is heavily Caucasian and primarily middle class with a small percentage of low-
income students from the outskirts of Mobile. Mrs. Herndon’s class is mostly mixed ability,
with 90% of her students passing the state test the previous year in mathematics. Two of
her students have IEP’s but are fully included in class activities, with an aide joining them
during English Language Arts. The aides do not join the students in Mrs. Herndon’s class.
It is late January and students have just recently returned from winter break. Before
the Mardi Gras break, Mrs. Herndon wants to make sure her students are really using
number sense to solve two-digit by one-digit multiplication problems. They have been
working on strategies such as breaking apart numbers by place value and finding doubles.
However, it has been a few weeks since the students have had a number talk. She is
interested to see how students use the strategies they have been working with and how
they are able to reason with each other.
Mrs. Herndon has established some classroom norms with regard to class
discussions. Students generally raise their hands in order to speak, but sometimes they also
just call out responses. In addition, students know they are expected to speak respectfully
to one another, and that the leaders of the conversation are themselves, not Mrs. Herndon.
She has been working with them to direct questions and explanations to one another, but
often they revert back to viewing her as the sole authority during discussions.

Starting the Number Talk:

After students have come into the room and settled in, Mrs. Herndon invites all the
students to the front of the room and directs them to sit in a horseshoe shape. She also
instructs them to leave all belongings at their desk, including any paper or pencils. The
students are somewhat curious about what is about to happen, but also seem used to the
procedure of coming to the front of the room. The students are talking and interacting with
each other as they sit down.
Mrs. Herndon directs attention to the whiteboard, where a problem is written. The
problem looks as such:

4 x 25

Mrs. Herndon: In your heads, solve this problem as many ways as you can. When you have
come up with one strategy, show me thumbs up on your chest. If you have more than one
strategy, put two fingers up. Remember, a thumbs up means you have a strategy, not an
answer.

Students almost immediately have two or three fingers on their chests. Mrs.
Herndon expected this, as this is a problem students are expected to know with
automaticity at this point in the school year. She waits two more minutes before beginning
to ask students to solicit strategies.

Mrs. Herndon: Does everyone have at least one strategy? (Students nod in approval) What
answers did we get?

Class in unison: 25!

Mrs. Herndon: Okay, it seems like we all got this answer. Who wants to share their strategy
with us?

Madison (raising her hand): Well I kind of thought of it like coins. So I know that 25 could
be like 25 cents, and 25 cents are in a quarter. Then I knew 4 quarters go into a dollar. So 4
times 25 would be 100.

Mrs. Herndon (writing on the board): So what number sentence did you set up to solve 4
times 25?

Madison: I just knew it. It’s a fact.

Trey (raising his hand – it is safe to assume at this point that any student who is speaking is
raising their hand; students seem adamant about this classroom norm): I did something
similar to Madison, because I thought of coins too. But I just did 25+25 and then I knew that
was 50, because two quarters is 50 cents. Then I did 50+25 and I got 75. Then, I had one 25
left so I did 75+25 and got 100.

Mrs. Herndon: Those are excellent ways to think of this problem, I love that you are using
coins to help you visualize the problem. Did anyone solve another way?

Lawson: I didn’t really use a strategy, because I just knew the answer because I’ve seen the
problem before.

Mrs. Herndon: Absolutely. This is a problem that we may recognize immediately and just
know the answer. Remember that when we are on the carpet I want you to be thinking
about the ways we can solve problems, even ones we know the answer to very quickly.

At this point, Mrs. Herndon immediately transitions by moving to a different section
of the whiteboard, leaving the other solutions up to be viewed by students as they progress
through the number talk. Mrs. Herndon writes the following problem on the board:

4 x 200

Mrs. Herndon: Same thing, think of as many solutions as you can in your head. Show me
thumbs up when you have a strategy.

The students take a little longer this time to put their thumbs up, but almost every
student in the class shows evidence of at least one strategy. One student, Sue, seems to be
struggling to find a strategy and is staring into space. Mrs. Herndon seems to take note of
this, as she asks students to turn and talk with one another about this problem before
offering solutions. During this time, she kneels down and talks with Sue.

Mrs. Herndon: I can see that almost everyone has a strategy to share. Turn and talk with a
partner about your strategies. Remember that everyone needs to be able to present their
thinking when we are done with our partners.

Turn and Talk:

The students are chatting excitedly with their partners. The following vignette
reflects the individual conversation Mrs. Herndon is having with Sue:

Mrs. Herndon: Can you share your strategy with me, Sue?

Sue: I didn’t really have one.

Mrs. Herndon: Well can you tell me the answer to the problem?

Sue: Uh, no. It’s hard because the second number is so big.

Mrs. Herndon: Try to tell me what you’re doing in your head. Why does the bigger number
make it hard for you?

Sue: Well I’m trying to set it up like we’ve learned in class, with the 200 on top and the 4
underneath, but I’m getting confused in my head because we can’t write it down.

Mrs. Herndon: Let’s just think of the numbers. What does 4 x 200 really mean?

Sue: It’s 200 but like four times over again.

Mrs. Herndon: I think you have a strategy.

Returning to the Number Talk:

Mrs. Herndon gets up and moves back to the middle of the horseshoe, observing her
class engaging with one another.

Mrs. Herndon: Alright, lets come back together. I could hear lots of good math noise in the
room! I’m excited to hear from you. First, what answers do we have?

Class: 800!

Mrs. Herndon: Any other answers? (silence) Talk to me, what were the strategies we
found?

Trey: I did it the easiest way. I just knew 4 times 2 was 8 because that’s a fact from our
times table. Then I added 2 zeros so I had 800.

Mrs. Herndon: Why did you add 2 zeros?

Trey: Well, I just knew that when you times something by 100 you add 2 zeros. It’s the rule.

Olivia: I think I know what he means. Can I try to explain?

Trey: Sure.

Olivia: Well, when you multiply by 100 you are just moving the place value.

Mrs. Herndon: Olivia says when we multiply by 100 we move the place value. Can someone
say more about this?

Anna: Right now we have 4 ones and 2 ones when we did 4 times 2. So then, when we do 4
times 200, we have 4 ones and 2 hundreds. So instead of doing 4 groups of 2 ones, we are
doing 4 groups of 2 hundreds. So it’s like 100 eight times, or 800.

Mrs. Herndon: Wow! Did everyone hear this? Anna, say this again to the class so everyone
hears.

Anna: Well when I solved it I did what Trey did, where I saw the 4 and the 2 and knew 4
times 2 is 8. So if you think of it like place value kind of how we did with the base 10 blocks
when we were little, you would have 4 groups of 2 little ones cubes. But we have a different
problem, because ours is 4 times 200, not 2. So instead of having 4 groups of ones cubes,
you would have 4 groups of 2 hundreds blocks. And that is a total of 8 hundreds blocks, or
800.

Sue: I really like the way you and Trey did it, Anna, because I was having trouble at first
because 200 seemed like a really big number to multiply in my head. But your way makes it
easier.

Mrs. Herndon: Why is their way easier?
Sue: Well, they made the problem into an easier one at first, because we all know 4 times 2.
Then it was easy to multiple 8 by 100.

Sarah: I think I have another way. I just knew there were 4 groups of 200, so I did 200+200,
and I knew that was 400. Then we have 2 200’s left so I did 400+400 and got 800.

Mrs. Herndon: I’m seeing some really great math thinking happening today! Let’s see if we
can think even more.

Mrs. Herndon writes on the board:

4 x 250

Mrs. Herndon: Think of some ways to solve this in your head and show me when you have a
strategy.

Mrs. Herndon waits about four minutes for this problem. Students take longer than
the previous two and significantly more students only have one strategy as opposed to two.
After waiting, Mrs. Herndon asks students for the answer to the problem.

Mrs. Herndon: What answers did we find for this one?

The students are quiet, looking around at each other for validation.

Trey: I got 1,000.

Mrs. Herndon: Were there any other answers?

Korban: Well, at first I got confused because I didn’t think I could do it in my head but I got
1,000.

Mrs. Herndon: You said you didn’t think you could do it in your head, why is that? Tell me
more about that.

Korban: 250 seemed like it was too big to do the multiplying in my head when I set it up
like we’ve done in class. I got confused with the zeros.

Madison: I think he’s trying to say that he’s using the rule and it was too hard in his head.

Mrs. Herndon: So the algorithm for multiplication is difficult to perform mentally.
Interesting…let’s talk more about this. What were some of the strategies y’all used that
weren’t the algorithm?

Tyler: I don’t really know what algorithm means but I think I did it a different way. I said
that 200 times 4 equals 800, because we just did that one before. Then I knew I needed to
do 4 times 50, and that’s 200. So 800+200 is 1,000.

Mrs. Herndon: I’m hearing a really good strategy. Can someone else tell us why Tyler had to
multiply the 4 by 50 later on?

Olivia: Well I see it like he split 250 up into littler pieces. So like, 200 and 50. Then he had
already done 200 times 4 from before so he just needed 50 more to get to 250. So that’s
why he did it that way.

Tyler: Yeah, I broke it up.

Mrs. Herndon: Why is breaking it apart into 200 and 50 an easier problem to do in your
head?

Olivia: It’s because the numbers end in zero so we can use the rule about tens and
hundreds.

Anna: I agree but I’m doing it differently. I used the one from before with 4 times 25, and I
knew it was 100. Then I knew 250 was 25 times 10 so I multiplied 100 times 10 and got
1,000.

Mrs. Herndon: Hmmm. I am hearing some great connections. Keep that in mind as we
continue to work today. Does anyone have any other strategies?

(No students raise their hands)

Mrs. Herndon returns to the board and finds the last bit of empty space, leaving all
the work from the previous three problems on the board. She then writes this problem on
the board:

4 x 249

Mrs. Herndon: Okay, here’s the final problem. Think about all the ways you could solve it.

Sue: Woah! That’s hard.

At this point the students are clearly thinking really hard about the problem being
presented to them. They are shifty, and glancing towards one another. One student, Korban,
is actually drawing in the air with his finger as if he was writing on paper. Mrs. Herndon
waits several minutes before proceeding with the discussion.

Mrs. Herndon: Okay, share with me your answers.

Tori: I got 996.

Mrs. Herndon: Did anyone else get something different?

Taking the silence to mean no, Mrs. Herndon moves on to the discussion of
strategies.

Mrs. Herndon: How did you solve this? Sue, you were saying it was hard. Did you find the
answer?

Sue (shifts uncomfortably): Um, no.

Mrs. Herndon: Well, how were you thinking about it?

Sue: I didn’t really know how to start…I couldn’t figure out what to do with 249 because it’s
such a weird number.

Mrs. Herndon: Hm. Can someone try to help Sue out?

Trey: I can. 249 is pretty close to 250 so I just did that. I did 250 times 4 and got 1,000 and
then I took away 4 and got 996.

Mrs. Herndon: Sue, could you explain what Trey said in your own words?

Sue: I still don’t really get it.

Mrs. Herndon: Trey, how did you know to take away 4?

Trey: I knew because 249 is less than 250 so there’s one group of 4 less.

Mrs. Herndon: Okay, so since we are trying to find 249 groups of 4, when you found 250
groups of 4 you had one group of 4 too many. I really liked how Trey used our other
problems to help. Any other strategies?

Tori: I did 200 times 4, which is 800. Then I did 49 times 4, which was too hard to do in my
head, so I did 40 times 4, which is 160 and 9 times 4, which is 36. Then I added it all up and
got 996.

Mrs. Herndon: Wow! There is a lot of cool thinking happening with your strategy. I wonder
if we can use this with other numbers. What do you think?

Lawson: I don’t think so because we used the three problems here to help us and we might
not have those later on.
Olivia: I disagree, I think we can use break apart for any numbers. We just have to know
what to make them into so that we can solve them.

Mrs. Herndon: Does anyone else agree or disagree with what’s been said?

Ashlyn: I agree with Olivia because even though Lawson is right and we won’t have these
problems to help every time, we can still use easier numbers to solve in our heads.

Mrs. Herndon: You all had some really great thoughts today, and I really enjoyed how we all
participated in discussion today, great job.


Post-Case Questions:

1. Mrs. Herndon did an excellent job of soliciting student participation throughout the
discussion, however it seemed that only a couple different students were
participating a majority of the time. What are some strategies she can use to combat
this?

Mrs. Herndon can call on specific students. Throughout the discussion, the students
raised their hands and Mrs. Herndon always called on a student with their hand raised,
however in the future she could attempt to include every student in the dialogue regardless of
their hands being raised. In addition, getting rid of the hand raising could invite more student
participation and limit the temptation to call on the first student with a response. It seemed
that dominant students like Trey were giving great explanations but also could be seen as
taking over the conversation. Mrs. Herndon should take note throughout the number talk of
who has spoken and only allow responses from students who have not shared, especially late
in the number talk.

2. Some of the explanations students offered were confusing, or hard to follow. What
should Mrs. Herndon do to clarify these explanations and ensure that every student
is keeping up with the mathematical content of the discussion?

Mrs. Herndon needs to ask if the class understands after every section of the number
talk, or very frequently. Asking a simple question such as, “Does everyone understand?” or
“Does anyone need help understanding this explanation?” with a simple thumbs up/thumbs
down technique could ensure that she is aware that every student is following along. The
thumbs up technique also helps avoid drawing attention to students who may not understand
and encourages them to actually be honest in expressing their level of understanding because
it is subtle and invites less judgment from classmates.

3. Mrs. Herndon talked a lot during this number talk. She expressed at the beginning of
the case study that one of her goals was to have students asking questions to one
another and not thinking of her as the leader. Do you think she achieved this goal?
 What are some strategies she could use next time to make the discussion more
conversational among students, rather than focusing on her as the authority?
Most of the time, the students were engaging in conversations with Mrs. Herndon, not
each other. There were a few moments where they interacted or asked questions of each
other, but for the most part Mrs. Herndon was clearly the discussion leader. In addition, there
were times where Mrs. Herndon was having a conversation with one student for an extended
period of time, such as with Sue and Trey during the final problem. This is troublesome
because the other students may begin to stop thinking, because they are not a part of the
dialogue. Mrs. Herndon should consider moving herself out of the horseshoe during discussion.
This way, students are forced to look at one another when they are engaging in discussion. In
addition, Mrs. Herndon used virtually no wait time, aside from when students were mentally
computing the problems. Students should be given wait time both before answering a
question and also after giving a response. This wait time after a student response is especially
key because another student may offer a response, question, or clarification, but since Mrs.
Herndon did not allow them the wait time and just immediately responded, she took some of
the opportunities away from students to engage in conversation with one another.

4. What should be the focus of Mrs. Herndon’s next number talk?

Although Mrs. Herndon has clearly introduced the students to identifying multiple
strategies to mentally solve multiplication problems such as breaking apart by place value
and finding benchmarks of 10 and 100, she has not yet allowed them to apply this strategy to
new situations. During the final problem, she almost funneled them into thinking this way by
saying, “I like how Trey used our other problems to help.” The students seemed to be getting
into a discussion about applying the break-apart strategy to other numbers as seen with
Lawson and Ashlyn, but they do not expand on this or specifically try it out. Mrs. Herndon
should consider giving another similar sequence as a warm up and evaluating students’
abilities to use these strategies before engaging in another number talk. The students in Mrs.
Herndon’s class seem to have an excellent grasp on basic multiplication facts, so she should
move beyond the number sequences and start number talks with two-digit by two-digit
multiplication. Students would still be able to use the strategies from this number talk but
with more complicated problems. An example problem could be 16 x 24. Students would be
able to break apart the numbers into place value, or round down and use a benchmark of 10
by turning the 24 into a 20.