Extended Front Dart 1

Part I: The Extended Front Dart - The Coatmaker's Forum - The Cutter... https://web.archive.org/web/20150919130606/http://www.cutterandtail...
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Part I: The Extended Front Dart

Started by Sator , Sep 24 2011 01:21 AM
Posted 24 September 2011 - 01:21 AM

Sator
The Extended Front Dart

This thread is just an offshoot of this more comprehensive overview of different ways of darting coats
(https://web.archive.org/web/20150919130606/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum
/index.php?showtopic=2471) . The idea is to focus in on particular styles of darting lounge coats.
In this thread we will discuss what A.A. Whife had to say about this subject in his 1950s book A First Course in
Gentlemen's Garment Cutting.
The are two things Whife mentions that the extended-through cut produces:
1. Increased Across Chest Contour
2. "Clipping" of the Skirt
1 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
2 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
Let's discuss the effect of the two methods of darting in terms of their effect Whife mentions on the chest contour and
clipping of the skirt.
The Effect on the Chest Contour
The following picture shows the results from the two ways of cutting through the front dart to the hem:
3 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
Either you can extend straight down the front, or you can have the extension do a side step across the pockets and
then go down to the hem at the underarm seam:
4 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
Either way, the front dart has is extended through to the hem.
When the dart goes straight down, it is like this:
5 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
When the dart is displaced, it does a side step like this:
6 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
In both cases, just as Whife says, when the dart (same width at the bottom) is closed it will produce the same effect on
the chest contour:
7 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
8 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
Clipping of the Skirt
The passage I will draw your attention to is this one:
9 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
Whife talks about the "clipping" of the front edge. Let's first examine what "clipping" means. Clipping means that you
control excess length at the hem. To put it another way, skirts tend to flare outwards. One way of controlling the skirt
flare is to clip the front edge by the use of a dart make the front edge "snug". By "snug", Whife means that the skirt is
prevented from flaring outwards and instead is held close to the body.
This will be more familiar to you from drafting corpulent coats. You insert a Donlon wedge from P-Q:
10 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
This will "clip" the front edge and draw it in snugly to the body, thus controlling the tendency for the edge to flare out.
Normally, you do not leave the Donlon wedge at the P-Q position, although you can - if the coat has patch pockets to
hide the extended seam:
11 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
In most cases, you will transfer the Donlon wedge to the side pocket like this:
12 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
By closing off the wedge at the bottom, you transfer it to the level of the pocket.
Let's return to Whife once again:
What he is saying is that the visibility of front dart straight down the front is considered by some to be an eyesore,
although others may have no problem with it:
13 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
To reduce the visibility of the extended front dart, Whife suggest an alternative approach which achieves the same
thing. He says this alternative method will also produce "clipping" of the front edge, but without having a visible seam
at the front.
The second method he describes is to have the extended seam run like this:
14 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
The extended seam does that side step through the pocket to the underarms seam.
Another way of looking at it is that you transfer the Donlon wedge P-Q to the side pocket. However, the Donlon
wedge is smaller and instead of being for a corpulent figure, it is there for a proportionate figure. The purpose of the
wedge remains the same: to clip or barrel in the skirt hem to stop it flaring out.
When you extend the front dart to the hem, you are forming a Donlon wedge:
15 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
Cut through the pocket. Also extend the underarm seam to the hem:
16 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
Next, you pinch the wedge closed at the bottom between 2-3:
17 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
The Donlon wedge has been transferred to the pocket:
18 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
This is something done all the time on a corpulent cut, so it should present no controversy when it is done on a
proportionate draft. It is pretty rudimentary stuff.
This part of the discussion has limited itself to plain cloth designs. In the second part, we will examine the effect of
extended darts on the pattern matching of stripes and checks. (https://web.archive.org/web/20150919130606/http:
//www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2594) This first part provides the background to that
discussion.
Conclusions
In conclusion, the displacement to the side of the extended-through front dart produces the same chest effect and
clipping of the skirt as when the front dart is extended straight down the front of the coat. As stated by Whife, on
cloths with a plain design, it is totally unnecessary to have the extension of the front dart go straight down the front
where it is highly visible. Whife is silent on the issue of the effect of the extended-through dart on pattern, so we will
examine this issue separately in a new thread.
Lastly, don't shoot me for this - I appreciate that this is the normal way of operating on the forum when some author
has published something 60 years ago that some of the readers disagree with. I am not Whife - he wrote it before I
19 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
was born. and nor did I force Whife to write that at gunpoint. I am just repeating what Whife and the Viennese
authors (https://web.archive.org/web/20150919130606/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum
/index.php?showtopic=2471) say with minor elaborations. Please do not read some conspiratorial "hidden motive for
posting" or personal insult in this. It has been posted because what is in the literature makes logical sense and is
therefore worthy of study and discussion. Contrary to popular opinion, I do not own a Tardis on which to go back in
time to force a retraction with written apology from Whife or the OSZ editors for writing something you disagree
with.
Also contrary to popular opinion there is no ban on members expressing a different opinion eg it is preferable to have
the front dart go straight down the front rather than displacing it to the side pocket because of reasons x, y, z. In fact,
an enlightening explanation for why some alternative way of doing things - anything - might be preferable is always
extremely welcome, and we would all be thoroughly delighted to hear out your point of view.
If despite these reassurances you feel your blood pressure climbing explosively, take a little break, and come back to
things later:
20 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
Just remember that if your blood pressure has gone through the roof for one reason, someone out there will be
equally angry for me for the opposite reason of not having gone far enough. It is like politics - one side proposes
action and the right wing says it is a going too far and the left says that it isn't going far enough. That's pretty much
the standard reaction to everything I post on the forum. So it's OK - relax, you don't have to feel defensive and angry
about everything you see on the forum.

jukes
That,s all fine and dandy if we were in the same century when said authors were practising and preaching their trade,
however things have moved on from that time, cutting methods have changed, cloth has changed, tailoring
methods have changed, tools have changed, i have changed, the streets no longer have gaslight, Jack the Ripper has
still not been found. It,s like putting a pilot in world war 2 plane and then asking him to fly a jumbo jet.

Sator
^ There are some who use precisely that argument to say that the side body is ergo a necessary part of modern cutting
and that by even suggesting that you do things otherwise this forum becomes an archaic rubbish heap for tailors with
their crooked cuts and other prehistoric ideas. You can't win.
So don't run the polemic against me - or even against Whife. Instead say "the side body and extended front dart are
two archaic cutting methods with no place in modern tailoring because x, y, z". Saying "what prehistoric crap" teaches
us nobody and only encourages people to become even more entrenched in their prejudices.

jukes
21 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
There are no prejudices, of course the old ways have to be observed, then you move on, its called progress. But to
keep on and on about the same thing in a number of threads, does no one any favours. It becomes very boring for
both
professionals and observers. A dart is a dart is a dart, where you put it is the cutters preference, and that really is how
simple it is. Reading some of these threads becomes mind boggling and complicates even the most simple of tasks.

Sator
By prejudices I mean it can be like the US political debate on raising the debt level with the two side of politics locking
idealogical horns, refusing to given an inch, causing a politic paralysis that is only to everyone's detriment.
Forums would be boring if everyone agreed with each other. It's in the tension of differences that the discussion
arises. That's good, as long as people don't dig into the trenches and refuse to concede anything to the "enemy".
As for me, I am open to both the pro and cons of having extended darts vs no extended darts. Threads like this exist
because I would like to lay bare the pros and cons of each so that cutters can make informed decisions in choosing
one over the other. This became doubly important when it became clear to me that most people hadn't understood a
word of the original lounge coat darting thread (https://web.archive.org/web/20150919130606/http:
//www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2471) because it has too much crammed into it. The
moment I broke off a little snippet from the original thread and put it into a separate one, I got positive feedback that
people suddenly understood it: they started to explode with anger and vitriol, even though nothing new had been
said.
This is why I decided to divide up what is crammed into the original Lounge Coat Darts thread into separate threads
with more manageably bite sized information in them. Part II of The Extended Front Dart (https://web.archive.org
/web/20150919130606/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2594) also has a lot of
discussion not found in Part I of The Extended Front Dart or in the Lounge Coat Darting thread. The danger is that
presenting the same information in easy to understand bite sized units will cause readers to explode with anger at
every single one of them - the normal forum reaction. The one person will be outraged that it goes too far, and the
other because it doesn't go far enough.
All this takes many hours of work for which I don't get paid a cent, which makes the hostility generated by the
critiques and analyses all the more incomprehensible to me.
Posted 24 September 2011 - 12:49 PM

Sator
I should also mention that far from repeating the same thing over and over like a stuck record, the discussion and
commentary here is of a different text to that posted in the Lounge Coat Darts thread (https://web.archive.org
/web/20150919130606/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2471) . In that thread, I
discussed what Whife wrote in MTOC whereas this thread concentrates on the pages from A First Course. There is a
slight difference, and what Whife said in A Fist Course lays the foundation of the entire series, which deals with the
effect of extended darts on plain cloth designs, and then proceeds to discuss the effect on pattern matching.
/index.php?showtopic=2594)
These are topics never before analysed either on the forum or in the published literature.

CoronarJunkee
A men's coat has just so many ways to dart it...
No chest dart
Chest dart extended to the hem
Bottom of chest dart transferred to bottom of underarm dart/into a separate side body
Chest dart and underarm dart without separate side body (and then this Ostinelli thing to have the Donlon effect
without a side body)
And the choice of a lapel dart or not, according to neck point position and figure type
22 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
Shoulder dart yes or no.
The CB can be cut with a seam or on the fold which creates more ironwork.
The side seam always stays the same
I mean. Transferring darts to another position in a men's coat is a thing which is very limited by tradition. Everything
that goes beyond the above is seen as a very loud styling feature (like princess seams in the back, though there
are/were traditional as well).
So why not write more about transferring darts in women's wear? At least, those are REAL darts with more than
2cms in them... But on the other hand, every pattern making book tells you about how to do it...
I might just not get the importance of this.
Edited by CoronarJunkee, 24 September 2011 - 05:53 PM.

Sator
'CoronarJunkee', on 24 Sept 2011 - 08:52 AM, said:
So why not write more about transferring darts in women's wear?
Good. Why don't you write something on it?
This series of articles took about two nights to write and I published it online at around 2 AM in the morning after I
revised it for the last time. So, the ladies version should take you about a week to write. You will be richly rewarded by
other members complaining about how "childish" everything that you say is. Others will ask why you keep repeating
the same thing over and over.

jukes
That response was entirely unnecessary, we all appreciate this forum and the work you do on it, but you need to learn
when to let a debate go. You asked for reasoning re the extended front dart, Nishijin gave a perfectly valued reason,
yet still you refute it. Ask yourself why very few people get involved in the debates these days ??

Sator
'jukes', on 25 Sept 2011 - 4:40 PM, said:
You asked for reasoning re the extended front dart, Nishijin gave a perfectly valued reason, yet still you refute it.
I also presented the pros along with the cons of the extended front dart: see part II of this topic.
/index.php?showtopic=2594) In fact the very raison d'etre of this series of threads was to present all of the pros and
cons of both the type A and B extended darts. I should be allowed to present the cons of a method of working without
it adherents wanting me burnt at the stake for my blasphemy, and its pros without its detractors wanting me
beheaded as a maniacal evangelist trying to ram the ideology down their throats. Yet in typical fashion my attempt to
objectively present all of the pros and cons of both ways of doing things leads only to conspiracy theories about how
this is driven only by a hidden evil motivation to stifle debate on the forum.
As for your suggestion to shut the forum down and converting my old threads into blog entries, it's not a bad one at
all. It would save me a lot of time moderating the forum. After all it is not a debate when it goes like this:
Member 1: Method x is good because of a, b, c
Member 2: You are wrong because what you are saying is childish and driven by an evil desire to humiliate and put
people down
Member 1: Why?
23 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
Member 2: What's wrong with you? Why can't you see you are being childish?
This is what I call a debate:
Member 2: I disagree that x is the best way because it leads to problems a, b, c which are greater than the advantages
listed. Therefore method y is better than method x, because it avoids problems a, b, c.

Nishijin
Sator, your last message is not the summary of what happened. This is what was written :
Member 1 : Method x was introduced to create this effect. Method y was introduced later to give the same effect.
Method y is better because method x is an eyesore. Using method x today is illogical, outdated, and only used by
people wanting to show eccentricity.
Member 2 : this way to launch the debate close it at the beginning.
Member 3 : this is childish
Member 1 : I'm not being childish. There is no logical reason to use method x, any professional tailor should use
method y, anything else is illogical
Member 4 : there are many ways to cut a coat, method x, y or others can be useful in some cases, it is up to the cutter
to choose what is the best.
Member 1 : There is no logical reason to choose method x. I dare you to give an example where w would be better
than y. And I show many pictures to prove I'm right
Member 2 : Well, I use your pictures, and explain how they prove that sometimes, method x is better than method y,
and as such is not outdated nor illogical nor excentic.
Member 1 : This is too technical, we are loosing readers, you should write your opinion in the other thread I've just
created to share technical analysis
So, I agree that this is a debate :
Member 2: I disagree that x is the best way because it leads to problems a, b, c which are greater than the advantages
listed. Therefore method y is better than method x, because it avoids problems a, b, c.
Funny how the first line in these two "debates" are pretty different, isn't it ?
So while we all here appreciate the huge work you give to the community, I know that I'm not myself quite in the
mood to debate with you now. Explaining technique is interesting. Reading about how this or this tailor used
antiquated, illogical and eccentric techniques is just not funny. And it becomes pretty ridiculous when the tailors
criticised are very successful tailors. When I see someone making good business, I wonder what is it they do right, not
what I think they do wrong. If using an old fashion helps making sales, then what is wrong with it ?

Sator
'Nishijin', on 25 Sept 2011 - 8:22 PM, said:
24 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
Where did anybody say this??? Nobody stated anything of the like anywhere!
Member 1 : I'm not being childish. There is no logical reason to use method x, any professional tailor should use method y, anything
else is illogical
Nothing of the like was EVER stated by anyone. I made it clear that it was a debate about aesthetic choice between
putting in seams for show/shape vs hiding visibility - right down to the point of putting it in the aesthetics forum!
Member 4 : there are many ways to cut a coat, method x, y or others can be useful in some cases, it is up to the cutter to choose what
is the best.
Which is exactly what I have been saying all along and is the raison d'etre of this thread and the other thread. In fact,
in Part II of this series (https://web.archive.org/web/20150919130606/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum
/index.php?showtopic=2594) I have written out a far better defence of the extended front dart and in what situations
it can actually be used to good effect than you or anyone else has ever done. However, instead of reading what I have
written people continue to read conspiracies about mean spirited polemics against this or other tailoring houses
where absolutely none exist. This probably says more about the psychology of internet discussion which tends to
proliferate conspiracy theories and funny misunderstandings.
If using an old fashion helps making sales, then what is wrong with it ?
The funny thing is that I never said there was anything wrong with it. I always said that "the literature states that
reducing seam visibility regarded by many as a good thing". I actually said, that I don't have a problem with it or even
with more seams visible. In fact, I said I actually really like panel coat like this:
25 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
I always made it clear that the literature has a big issue with avoidable seam visibility, and the reaction I got showed
that I did too good a job of explaining to everyone, including non-tailors, why the literature has long ago dumped the
extended front dart. Many tailors - many successful tailors - have a problem with the visibility of all extended seams,
including the side body style, as well as the pattern mismatch this leads to and I accept that these are all viable
aesthetic choices: which is why the original Lounge Coat Darting thread shows these options. I even mentioned that
some have a problem with the visibility of the (non-extended) front dart. What is an eyesore to one is an aesthetic
26 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
style feature to others.
In any case, the use of simplistic language in the aesthetics thread was to help convey in easy terms what is written up
in the literature in more complex technical language. I cannot unwrite what Whife or the OSZ authors wrote in 1949.
Nor do I understand what is wrong with a critique of the pros and cons of a method of working, irrespective of
whether some famous tailor does it that way or not. I do not regard the work of this or that tailor to be so holy as to be
regarded a sacred cow.
In fact, I didn't even mention the name of a single tailor or tailoring house anyway: deliberately so.

Nishijin
Since it seems I live in an alternate reality, or I'm being delusional, I should all the more refrain myself to participate
in any debate...
Oh, but hey, am delusional ?
Quote
Quote
Where did anybody say this??? Nobody stated anything of the like anywhere!
http://www.cutterand...indpost&p=25163 (https://web.archive.org/web/20150919130606/http:
//www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2581&view=findpost&p=25163)
http://www.cutterand...indpost&p=25164 (https://web.archive.org/web/20150919130606/http:
//www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2581&view=findpost&p=25164)
Well, yes I am, it was not "Member 2", it was "Member 3 & 4".

Sator
Notice what someone else wrote:
'tailleuse', on 19 Sept 2011 - 5:46 PM, said:
I took this post to be nothing more than a general introduction to a tailoring feature with which nontailors have little or no
experience... I think some nontechnical threads are good, with links, if available, to more technical posts for those who wish to
explore the topic further.
Innumerable times I have openly invited discussion, debate and counter argument. To which the response has been
that it means the opposite to what it really means and that I am trying to shut down debate.
This is what that post has in it:
'Sator', on 19 Sept 2011 - 1:33 PM, said:
Before I begin, TAILORS please note, that this thread is meant for the non-tailor connoisseurs on the forum. Please don't turn it into
a full on technical discussion!!! Please If tailors want to discuss this issue in full technical detail you have this thread
(https://web.archive.org/web/20150919130606/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2471) to post in.
The great irony is that thread said nothing that hadn't been said in more detail four weeks earlier:
http://www.cutterand...?showtopic=2471 (https://web.archive.org/web/20150919130606/http:
//www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2471)
27 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
Fours weeks and you said nothing. Because of that I took it to mean that everyone agreed with the content and that
everything was uncontroversial. So that's when I repeated the same EXACT SAME content all over again using non-
technical language, and BANG!!! the complaint comes out of the blue that no opportunity for discussion or reply has
been given!!!! That I have shut down discussion before it even begins!!!! That complaint took me completely by
surprise.
Four weeks it's been open! And it is still open for discussion!
That is what I mean when I say you are reading conspiracy into a situation where there is NONE.
Also if after several weeks nobody raised objections to the original thread, how was I meant to know that the content
of the articles I based it on were contrary to or even critical of what some forum member was taught? Nobody said a
thing!!! In addition to owning a Tardis to travel in time to retract an apology from writers in 1949 for condescending
to critique the extended front dart, am I meant to be a mind reader and know that someone here was taught to favour
it and would be offended by a sixty year old critique of its ins and outs? I think this is totally unreasonable.

Nishijin
'Sator', on 26 Sept 2011 - 09:01 AM, said:
Fours weeks and you said nothing.
Because 4 weeks earlier, you published an interesting summary of the many different ways to make darts in a coat. It
was factual and non-judgmental.
What annoyed me (and many people I think) is the way you qualified the extended front dart as "outdated" and
"illogical". Your former post was factual. Your last one sounded a lot as an aggressive assertion against tailors who
use the extended front dart.
Plus doing so in a thread aimed at discussing aesthetics with non-tailors, thus giving the hint that the extended front
dart was "bad taste" or something like that.
Opening the debate would have been saying "here are different ways to dart a coat, what do you think about them ?".
But well, today I'm said that I see things that were never written, so I may be delusional and paranoïd.

Sator
'Nishijin', on 26 Sept 2011 - 09:11 AM, said:
What annoyed me (and many people I think) is the way you qualified the extended front dart as "outdated" and "illogical". Your
former post was factual. Your last one sounded a lot as an aggressive assertion against tailors who use the extended front dart.
Plus doing so in a thread aimed at discussing aesthetics with non-tailors, thus giving the hint that the extended front dart was "bad
taste" or something like that.
Yes, the extended dart is a period cutting technique from the 1930-40s. It rapidly disappears from the published
literature after that. That is historical fact. In that sense it is outdated. If people want a charmingly eccentric vintage
style to be a selling point of their style, good on them.
However, if I am guilty of running an "aggressive" polemic against visible darts why did I clearly say I like panel coats
like this?
28 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
My words were "Seams Can be Decorative". In fact, why not read the thread as the opposite of what you say it means:
that it is an aggressive attempt to push for extra seams with both a decoration and extra shape like Davide Taub does
with his panel coats.
29 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
Yes, I like panel coats like these, and personally have no problems with lots and lots of extra seams - darts that run all
the length of the fronts from the shoulder to hem included. I made that clear.
However, the literature is very clear that classically cut men's garment must be darted conservatively and that clients
often do complain about the visibility of darts. The extended front dart is even going out of fashion in ladies' tailoring
(where this style of dart originated) in favour of a more masculine style of concealed dart with reduced seam
visibility.
30 of 31 13/04/2018, 14:48
So I raised the question: what is the point of more visible seams? Is there a point? What are its pros and cons? It is a
very open question and remains open. Yes, I put the question in a way that was very easy to understand and non-
technical. Yes, I deliberately phrased it in a way that was shamelessly provocative, and it challenges readers to ask
themselves about whether they like seams to be visible or hidden. That was so it would open up discussion to a wider
audience including non-tailors, not to close it off.
I can understand that people are angry that I have opened up a Pandora's box of difficult questions, but they are open
questions and interesting questions.
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Part I: The Extended Front Dart - The Coatmaker's Forum - The Cutter... https://web.archive.org/web/20150919130606/http://www.cutterandtail...

Part I: The Extended Front Dart

Posted 24 September 2011 - 01:21 AM

The Extended Front Dart

1. Increased Across Chest Contour

2. "Clipping" of the Skirt

The Effect on the Chest Contour

When the dart goes straight down, it is like this:

When the dart is displaced, it does a side step like this:

Clipping of the Skirt

The passage I will draw your attention to is this one:

Let's return to Whife once again:

The Donlon wedge has been transferred to the pocket:

Posted 24 September 2011 - 02:40 AM

Posted 24 September 2011 - 03:08 AM

Posted 24 September 2011 - 04:03 AM

Posted 24 September 2011 - 11:10 AM

Posted 24 September 2011 - 12:49 PM

Posted 24 September 2011 - 05:52 PM

A men's coat has just so many ways to dart it...

Chest dart extended to the hem

Shoulder dart yes or no.

The side seam always stays the same

I might just not get the importance of this.

Edited by CoronarJunkee, 24 September 2011 - 05:53 PM.

Posted 25 September 2011 - 10:04 PM

'CoronarJunkee', on 24 Sept 2011 - 08:52 AM, said:

So why not write more about transferring darts in women's wear?

Good. Why don't you write something on it?

Posted 26 September 2011 - 01:40 AM

Posted 26 September 2011 - 01:58 AM

'jukes', on 25 Sept 2011 - 4:40 PM, said:

Member 1: Method x is good because of a, b, c

This is what I call a debate:

Member 1: Method x is good because of a, b, c

Posted 26 September 2011 - 05:22 AM

Member 2 : this way to launch the debate close it at the beginning.

Member 3 : this is childish

So, I agree that this is a debate :

Member 1: Method x is good because of a, b, c

Posted 26 September 2011 - 11:06 AM

'Nishijin', on 25 Sept 2011 - 8:22 PM, said:

Member 2 : this way to launch the debate close it at the beginning.

'Nishijin', on 25 Sept 2011 - 8:22 PM, said:

'Nishijin', on 25 Sept 2011 - 8:22 PM, said:

'Nishijin', on 25 Sept 2011 - 8:22 PM, said:

style feature to others.

Posted 26 September 2011 - 05:29 PM

Oh, but hey, am delusional ?

Member 2 : this way to launch the debate close it at the beginning.

Posted 26 September 2011 - 06:01 PM

Notice what someone else wrote:

'tailleuse', on 19 Sept 2011 - 5:46 PM, said:

This is what that post has in it:

'Sator', on 19 Sept 2011 - 1:33 PM, said:

(https://web.archive.org/web/20150919130606/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2471) to post in.

Posted 26 September 2011 - 06:11 PM

'Sator', on 26 Sept 2011 - 09:01 AM, said:

Fours weeks and you said nothing.

Posted 26 September 2011 - 07:00 PM

'Nishijin', on 26 Sept 2011 - 09:11 AM, said:

Back to The Coatmaker's Forum

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