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Part 1 -


Transcript of



03:25 About Morley Robbins


08:04 What is Copper Dysregulation?


29:44 Prevalence of Copper Dysregulation


33:31 Being Copper Toxic AND Copper Deficient at the Same Time


39:49 Symptoms Related to Copper Deficiency


49:49 Liver in the Diet


53:25 Tests for Revealing Copper Dysregulation


59:36 Histamine Levels and Copper Deficiency


Wendy: Today, we are having my very good friend, Morley Robbins on the show. We are going to be talking about the issues surrounding copper dysregulation, which is a simultaneous copper deficiency and copper toxicity. It’s a very confusing subject that I wanted to shed light on for my clients and for anyone who has no idea about this health issue because it absolutely is the defining underlying cause of health issues today in America – and around the world as well. We are going to be talking about what it is, what is copper deficiency, what is copper toxicity and how to correct these issues and how to diagnose them so to speak.

My sincerest apologies we were not able to do a video podcast today. ** So just audio today. I hope you enjoy it. We have a lot to talk about. This is a 2-hour podcast, so I’m splitting it up into parts one and two, so I don’t melt your brains. This is a very, very intense podcast, and chockfull of information. So this is part

one of the podcast. Look forward next week to part two of copper dysregulation. I know you can’t wait.

First, we have to do the disclaimer. Please keep in mind that this program is not intended to diagnose or treat any disease or health condition and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. Please consult your healthcare practitioner before engaging in any treatment or option or supplementation that we suggest to you on the show.

For any of you guys that love supplements as much as I do, I have a new supplement that I’m using that I absolutely love. It’s called ashwagandha. It’s an ayurvedic herb. It’s amazing to aid sleep. I’m taking it now to assist in sleep and also for adrenal health as well. I think it’s excellent for anyone with adrenal fatigue. It will really calm the body down and really calm down the nervous system and assist sleep and to aid in healing the adrenal glands.

It’s something that I’m recommending to all my clients. You can find it in the Live to 110 Store at I have an organic form that I’m recommending. There’s lots of herbs out there, but I really think everyone, just like their food, should be taking organic, food-based supplements as well and this is one of the ones that I highly recommend if you’re stressed out, have adrenal fatigue or want some help sleeping.

03:25 About Morley Robbins

Wendy: Our guest today is Morley Robbins, also known as the Magnesium Man and he’s the founder of the Magnesium Advocacy Group on Facebook. His website is He has a mainstream medical industry background. Morley was a hospital executive and consultant for 32 years, but left to become a wellness coach and health practitioner.

He currently does hair mineral analysis, a program very similar to Mineral Power. Mr. Robbins has completed the Wellness Coaches Training Certification as well as the Institute for Integrative Nutrition Health Coaching Program, the one that I went to as well. Mr. Robbins received a BA in biology from Denison University in Ohio and holds an MBA from George Washington University in healthcare administration. Morley is an expert on minerals and uses hair mineral analysis in his health coaching practice. Twenty-one books 1200 articles later on magnesium, magnesium deficiency and other minerals as well, Morley has come to realize that magnesium plays a huge role in all metabolic systems and is therefore a contributing factor in nearly all disease.

He’s also very, very interested in copper dysregulation as well, something that I’ve formerly called ‘copper toxicity’. It’s more complex than that. We’re going to be talking about copper dysregulation, which is another passion of Morley’s s well where it’s a simultaneously copper deficiency as well as copper toxicity. Those two things can happen at the same, exact time. And these two issues, magnesium deficiency and copper dysregulation issues are at the root cause of all disease. So that’s why we’re talking about it today on the show.

Morley, thank you so much for being on the show.

Morley Robbins: Hey! Glad to be here. How are you doing? I hope you had a lovely Christmas holiday and all that good stuff.

Wendy: Yes, I did! It was wonderful. It was very relaxing. I took some needed time off. I really haven’t had a break in about two and a half years. I’ve just been going, going, going. So I took a week off and I did not look at my computer. I think it was very rejuvenating.

Morley Robbins: What was that word you used? Break? You took a break? What is that?

Wendy: I took a break. It was very good for my adrenals, bad for everyone else learning about health. Usually, I just can’t stop. I just enjoy what I do, so it’s a byproduct of that. But Morley, let’s talk about today about copper toxicity, copper dysregulation. Sorry, I know you hate the word ‘copper toxicity’.

Morley Robbins: Yeah, exactly. I freak out.

Wendy: So we’re going to talk today about copper dysregulation. But first, why don’t you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and why you became a health coach?

Morley Robbins: I backed into it. This wasn’t what I thought I would be doing when I grew up, but I affectionately refer to myself as a pre-med retread. When I was in college, I had designs of becoming a doctor. My organic chemistry professor made sure that was never going to happen. I thanked him many times since that painful process.

I went into the hospital field, worked there for 32 years and developed a frozen shoulder, which forced me into the alternative healing world, the world of natural healing kicking and screaming and realized that that that was my calling and I became a wellness coach. I really quite unexpectedly had become an expert on minerals. The two that I had the greatest fascination with was magnesium and copper in part just because of how important they are in the body. They also just happen to be the two minerals of my mentor, Rick Malter (who I think the world of) tends to focus on as well.

When you begin to dig into why everyone is sick, about 99% of the reason is they don’t have enough magnesium or they don’t have the right bioavailability than their copper and it’s a little more complicated than that.

Wendy: And listeners, if you’re interested, we did a preview show on how to prevent a heart attack with magnesium, previous podcasts. I definitely recommend checking that out. But of course, there’s lots more information on magnesium beyond just preventing a heart attack, so I recommend giving that a listen to. 08:04 What is Copper Dysregulation

Wendy: And personally, I agree with you. I think copper dysregulation is one of our top health crises. Can you tell us a little bit about what copper dysregulation is and how it happens? It’s something that’s very, very confusing to a lot of my clients and I think to a lot of people out there.

Morley Robbins: Yeah, I know. I think it’s an incredibly confusing issue in part because of the very different natures of the two minerals that we just talked about. When people have a magnesium deficiency, it’s mathematical. They’re down, they need to restore it, you add magnesium and voila! You’re back in the game.

Copper doesn’t work that way. It has profound relationships with a lot of different minerals, certainly zinc, chromium, manganese, sulfur. And where magnesium repletion, restoring the magnesium status is a mathematical process, which is simple arithmetic, trying to deal with copper dysregulation is more like solving a quadratic equation. It’s really complicated.

And in part, it’s complicated by the fact that people have been brainwashed over the last 30 years to think of copper as being a bad guy and we’ve got to get rid of it, it’s toxic and get it out of your body, it’s all witchcraft, it’s designed to drive copper deficiency, which is really what’s at the core of a lot of people’s problem.

Surely, you’ve got clients and followers who have fibromyalgia, where they have Lyme disease or they have certainly thyroid issues, Hashimoto’s and all sorts of things, rheumatoid arthritis,

people who probably have experienced, or someone in their family has experienced, an aneurism. All of these conditions have a common origin, copper dysregulation.

And it’s really staggering when you begin to realize that that one mineral has that kind of impact and it’s through 30 different cupro enzymes (cupro is the derivation of copper) and it’s those 30 enzymes that when they go out, begin to affect thousands and thousands of other enzymes.

I think where there’s a lot of confusion is that copper has become so ubiquitous in our environment. The pipes that bring water into our homes and into our buildings is copper pipes where years ago, they were all zinc pipes oddly enough. That all changed after the first world war and then really exonerated after the second world war – so suddenly, copper pipes. And when you have the type of water that we have, our treatment of it causes copper to leech out of that pipe and into the water.

Copper is a known anti-fungal agent. Well, commercial growers use copper sulfate and they spray it on all produce to make sure that there isn’t any increased amount of fungus as it’s moving the 1500 miles from one side of the country to the other. So we’re exposed to a lot of copper that way.

Also, we’ve got things like a lot of the processes for birth control tied back to copper. Birth control pills and copper IUD has a profound impact on a woman’s body. Use of antibiotics are profoundly influential in disrupting copper regulation in large part because copper plays a key role in the effectiveness of antibiotics and it has to do with its ability to disrupt or support iron metabolism depending upon what they’re trying to do with the bacteria that they’re trying to go after.

So it’s very pervasive and what is really key to the whole process is to understand that what’s very important for copper is that it be attached to its transport protein, which is called ceruplasmin.

Ceruloplasm is a fancy word, French for ‘blue blood’. What its role is in the body is to make sure that the copper and the iron are being properly transported, so that it doesn’t cause oxidation.

So I’m sure a lot of your listeners and followers are familiar with the story of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Dr. Jekyll was this famous physician in London who was a really gifted doctor and quite the gentleman, but he always wore a cape. Well, the interesting thing about the scientific symbol for ceruloplasm are the initials capital C and the little p. So I call it the “cape.”

So if copper is wearing the cape, it’s just as an incredibly important mineral that enhances and activates some very important enzymes in the body. But just like Mr. Hyde, when Dr. Jekyll took of his cape, he became a serial killer. Well, copper without its cape is a very destructive element. It’s one of the most oxidizing elements in the body, maybe second only to iron or fluoride and a few other elements. But copper without its transport protein is disruptive.

What’s fascinating is that we didn’t know this. No one really took the time to explain all of these out, that copper is actually pretty darn important inside the body and it doesn’t really work right unless it’s attached to that transport protein, ceruloplasm. Once you begin to understand that, a lot of tumblers fall into place. You say, “Wow! Maybe copper is a pretty important mineral. But most of the programming in articles (there are scores and scores and scores of article about copper), the spin in most of those articles is, “Oh, booga wooga, copper is bad. Try to detox” and it’s just wrong. It’s absolutely wrong.

Wendy: Yeah. And that’s why a lot out of the higher end supplement companies have taken it out of the multivitamins.

Morley Robbins: Well, sure, because actually – you know, what the listeners need to understand is I’m a conspiracist. I absolutely believe that an entity, a group of entities that are

trying to take us out. They can just put up with my weird ways. But copper is the target.

When you take copper out of the human body, it falls apart. And what does it need? It needs all sorts of medication to support its functioning. And copper is behind high blood pressure because it tends to collect on estrogen receptors on the kidney. And when it gets there, it starts to wreak all sorts of havoc with electrolytes on the kidneys, which is a really bad place to be, by the way.

Ninety-eight percent of all hypertension is called idiopathic, 98%. What that really means is they have no idea what causes it. The reason why they don’t know what causes it is because they don’t want to understand the mineral dimension of it. Copper will cause a loss of electrolytes because of its nature and that’s what is behind hypertension and heart disease and we can go on down the line.

But the key here is – and this is where it gets really kind of wild and lily – if ceruloplasm is so important, what do we need to do in order to have healthy ceruloplasm? Well, the first thing that you got to have – ceruloplasm are made in the liver – is good, healthy sources of retinol, which is the animal-based form of vitamin A.

You think, “Wow! Okay, that’s no big deal.” Well, actually, it is a big deal because retinol’s antagonist in the body is calcitriol, otherwise known as vitamin D (when in fact, it’s not a vitamin D it’s actually a hormone) and people are drinking and swallowing vitamin D like it’s candy and they have no idea that when they’re doing that, when they’re taking that 1000, 3000, 5000 – I was talking to a client the other day who took 50,000 units a day of vitamin D.

Wendy: Argh!

Morley Robbins: She’s a metabolic train wreck. She had no idea that it was destroying the vitamin A in her liver, which then creates copper dysregulation. So a really bad thing to do if you’re worried about copper and copper dysregulation, the last thing you want to be doing is be downing a bunch of vitamin D without knowing what your overall profile is. And if you don’t know both your storage and active hormone D levels, you should not be going anywhere near that supplement.

But that’s only one element that causes disruption of copper. Another is when we’re under a lot of stress – and who isn’t? When we’re under a lot of stress, it triggers the production of a key stress hormone that comes out of the pituitary that’s called ACTH (adrenocorticotropic hormone) and it triggers the production of cortisol and aldosterone and all sorts of stress responses. Well, ACTH will stop the production of ceruloplasm in the liver and in the brain.

Now, what’s interesting is that ACTH rides on a see-saw with a very important mineral called magnesium, so that when magnesium is high, ACTH would be low. The reverse of that is true as well.

Magnesium gets low because of all sorts of stress. ACTH will build. So as we get more and more stressed out, it causes a breakdown in the production of ceruloplasm, which is the very mechanism to create copper dysregulation because when ceruloplasm stops being made, then we have high levels of unbound copper (unbound to ceruloplasm) and we have low levels of bound copper at the very same time. Once that cape comes off, once that cape is being made, copper goes rogue and that’s the very mechanism.

So you want to deal with your stress. You want to be very thoughtful about how you supplement the fat-soluble vitamins.

Never isolate them. You take them in combo at least – A with D,

E with K, but never just one by itself.

A third thing that you want to avoid is high fructose corn syrup

because what high fructose corn syrup is designed to do is cause copper deficiency in the liver and at the same time, cause iron toxicity. It does it perfectly. It does it flawlessly. That’s a very bad combination because you need copper in order to make ceruloplasm. That’s one of the many catch 22’s in the body. So the very mineral that you need to properly bind up is actually needed in order to make the protein that allows that to happen.

The challenge is high fructose corn syrup is pervasive throughout the food industry. It’s everywhere. And most people

wouldn’t even stop to think about it. But that sweetener is made

in a very specific way and that’s the very biochemical

mechanism that results at least in a mineral impact. High fructose corn syrup is very bad, very toxic to the liver. It’s in fact what’s behind all non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. It will destroy the production of ceruloplasm.

And then a fourth known element is ascorbic acid. I know we’ve been trained to think that vitamin C and ascorbic acid are one and the same. The vitamin C molecule is like a car. It’s a shell with four wheels, a steering wheel and an engine. That’s pretty much the design of the car and that’s pretty much the design of the vitamin C molecule. Ascorbic acid on the other hand is the shell of a car and no moving parts.

The important part about the vitamin C molecule is that that engine is actually an enzyme called tyrosinase and the spark plug that runs that engine is copper. It turns out that that very enzyme, tyrosinase, is very important in helping the body to metabolize copper. Ascorbic acid on the other hand causes copper to separate from ceruloplasm. Isn’t that


Wendy: Wow!

Morley Robbins: So it’s very, very disruptive and I cannot account for the work of Linus Pauling who was taking 10,000 and 15,000 and 20,000 mg. of ascorbic acid. It makes no sense at all. The research is very clear that it’s a very disruptive element. And for those of your listeners who think that Albert Szent-Gyorgi got the Nobel Prize for discovering ascorbic acid, that is absolutely laughable when in fact he got it for discovering the vitamin C molecule. What we’re engaged in is revision of history to try to get people to think that ascorbic acid is the active agent when in fact it’s a lot of different moving parts.

Wendy: Yeah, and I think that listeners have to be very careful when they’re reading studies or reading the work of certain physicians that are using high dose ascorbic acid for therapeutic uses. And while they may get one effect, one detoxification effect or whatever therapy they’re using it for, there is a price to pay on the other side with the copper dysregulation that may not be being monitored or be aware of.

But the fact is this synthetic molecule is not going to produce miraculous health in the body. It might produce a short-term health benefit that’s shown in the study, but not an overall long- term production of health. That’s my opinion. And that’s why I no longer use it on my healing program, Mineral Power.

Morley Robbins: That’s great. No, I totally agree. For those who might want to draw a little deeper, you might enjoy Robert Thomson’s book, The Calcium Lie. I believe he has a chapter devoted to the vitamin C molecules. It’s quite interesting reading. So what I think the listeners, viewers, need to understand is that in the world of allopathic medicine, there are three primary areas of focus. One is on the thyroid, another is calcium and the third is on iron. That’s what they really key on from a mineral and metabolic standpoint.

Isn’t that interesting because when you focus on the thyroid and medicate on the thyroid, we shut down the adrenal glands. And that’s the stress response in the human body, the adrenal glands. When you focus on calcium and start hyper- supplementing with calcium and vitamin D, which raises calcium, you shut down magnesium metabolism. It’s a very bad thing.

And when you focus on iron, and there’s complete confusion about the inter-related mechanisms of iron and copper metabolism, when you focus on iron, it shuts down copper metabolism. It’s one of the quirks of the human body.

And so the very three things that the traditional, conventional doctors focus on create compliance for life because once you’ve got control of someone’s thyroid and you’re focusing on calcium and iron, the person can never get back to metabolic balance. It’s impossible. I think that’s where a lot of the confusion is as well because it turns out that the adrenal glands are where 95% of the body store of whole food vitamin C is.

What’s important to understand is that the thyroid makes one hormone a day. It’s a very important one. I’m not disputing that at all. The adrenal glands make 50 hormones a day – not just cortisol, but a whole bunch of hormones that need to be made. All you got to do is study steroid hormone synthesis and your jaw will drop. All that’s being made inside the adrenal glands and it’s being made with the support of the liver as well.

What’s really key is to understand that the cytochrome p450 family of enzymes, which is what converts the steroid hormones from one spectrum to another, well, they’re copper dependent. And if you don’t have bioavailable copper, your hormones don’t work. They can’t morph from one to the other.

So then, suddenly, people are in a situation where they need bio- identical hormones. Why? Because they have mineral disruption. Our great grandparents didn’t have this insanity. They didn’t

have all these medications. They’re putting on creams and stuff like that. It’s just we’ve been conditioned to believe that that’s normal. Well, it’s not.

Wendy: That’s not! That’s what I tell somebody. My clients, when they started to work with me, it’s really difficult for them to believe that they don’t need thyroid medication for life and they don’t need bio-identical hormones the minute they turn menopausal. They’ve been conditioned to think and trained to think via the mainstream media that once you start taking thyroid medication, you need it for life. No! Be us. You need mineral supplementation, balancing your minerals, detoxification, et cetera to create your body’s function. And then it works!

Morley Robbins: That’s right. We’ve had one client who had their thyroid taken out, focused on rebuilding their body and their thyroid tissue came back. Oh, my gosh! You talk about bizarre. She was on thyroid medication and had to basically stop it because it was causing too much disruption. It was an amazing process. So yeah, I totally, totally agree.

But I think the challenge is getting people to accept that the body will, in fact, rebuild itself. There’s so much conditioning out there that we’re designed to fail or falling apart.

I had a client just the other day with a doctor for some issue. And the first thing out of the doctor’s mouth is, “What do you expect? You’re getting older.” No desire to understand what the mechanism was, no concern about the metabolism and was it being properly fed. It was, “Well, what do you expect? You’re getting older.” It’s just a very sad state that we find ourselves in.

29:44 Prevalence of Copper Dysregulation

Wendy: So what percent of your client base would you say have copper dysregulation?

Morley Robbins: I would bet it’s probably in the 90% range. I bet there are very few who don’t have some kind of copper dysregulation. The reason why I say that is I think about people who have histamine intolerance (sensitivities to foods and chemicals, even like that), think about people with cholesterol issues. Well, hypercholesterolemia is caused by copper deficiency. Who knew?

That was proven in 1972 by Leslie Klevay and was further validated in 22 labs around the world. And then suddenly, big pharma was faced with a very vexing decision, “¢5 for the copper or $5 for the statin?” and you know where that came out? Hypercholesterolemia.

The prevalence of no transmitter issues, people with sugar cravings. Well, that’s a dopamine deficiency. Well, you can’t get dopamine unless you have tyrosine and copper as an enzyme to support it.

So a lot of emotional dynamics around that. People who have temperature dysregulation, the number of people who I’ve worked with who have cold hands and cold feet is clearly in the 90% range or more. And there’s a particular enzyme that’s responsible for thermal regulation in the peripheral extremities. It’s a very cool enzyme. Its nickname is PAM. It stands for peptidylglycine alpha-amidating mono-oxygenase. I just love that enzyme. And it’s copper dependent.

It’s a very sophisticated enzyme in the hypothalamus and copper is really important for the hypothalamus. I think a lot of people are having a lot of problems with thermal regulations, which also affects the thyroid. It turns out that the process to turn iodide into iodine, which makes it the active form, requires copper. Who knew?

So my theory is that most of the thyroid dysfunction in this country is from a lack of copper. That would be easily two-thirds

of America that’s having thyroid issues. I think it’s a lot more pervasive than people realize. The only reason why they’re not aware of it is that there’s no literature to support that it’s deficiency as a problem. There’s a gail wind of literature to say that it’s toxic and you’ve got to rid of it.

And in fact, what they’re now finding is that issues of Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, Lou Gehrig’s disease, multiple sclerosis, all of these very vexing neurodegenerative conditions, at the very origin of that is copper dysregulation and almost without exception, copper deficiency. And copper deficiency will lead to an iron problem. And when iron gets out of whack, a lot of bad things happen.

So I think it’s far more pervasive than people realize. It’s just there’s no easy reference point for people right now to connect their ailment to a copper issue.

33:31 Being Copper Toxic AND Copper Deficient at the Same Time

Wendy: Yeah, yeah. You teach on this a little bit, but let’s talk about the copper conundrum because I think this is the most confusing thing for most people. How can one be copper toxic and copper deficient at the same time?

Morley Robbins: It goes back to the transport protein, ceruloplasm. What makes copper bio-available is it takes six copper irons to make the ceruloplasm molecule function. That’s what enables it to then carry iron and make sure that iron doesn’t cause oxidative problems in the body and inside the cell. When ceruloplasm isn’t being made properly, because of the stresses that we’ve talked about, the metabolic stress of too much D, the metabolic stress of ascorbic acid or high fructose corn syrup or just the lack of magnesium, which triggers the increase of ACTH, those events will prevent ceruloplasm. And when copper can’t get access to ceruloplasm, it goes rogue. And

so then you’ve got the dual state of too little bound copper and too much unbound copper at the same time, all because of a lack of ceruloplasm.

And so it’s just a quirk of that mineral that it requires the presence of its protein in order to be useful to the body. And if it’s not around, it is highly toxic to the body.

Wendy: Yeah, I read that the copper toxicity, this excess copper in the body is stored in the reproductive organs, the uterus, the gonads. It’s stored in the heart and the liver and the brain.

Morley Robbins: Well, it gets stored just about everywhere. What’s important, let’s get into a little bit of metabolic esoterica, I’m sure people have heard of the mitochondria, the mitochondria, it’s the energy of the cell.

Well, oxygen is a good thing, but oxygen can go rogue. Oxygen causes rust. So inside the cell, it causes reduced oxidation species or we go to these free radicals. I’m sure you’ve heard of them. I’m sure your clients have heard of them.

Well, the key is how does that happen? What’s taking place? Well, oxygen becomes what’s called superoxide because of a non-functioning enzyme called NADPH oxidase. It turns out, it’s copper dependent.

So if copper is not present, the oxygen will become superoxide. And then you say, “Oh, okay. Alright, so I’ve got some superoxide. Not to worry, I’ll just use some superoxide dismutase (SOD).” Well, there’s three types of SOD. There’s SOD 1, which requires copper and zinc, that plays around inside the cell. There’s SOD 2, its manganese-dependent and it plays inside the mitochondria. And then SOD 3 is extracellular and that also is copper dependent.

So the SOD is supposed to come and eliminate the superoxide, but if that can’t happen, if there’s not enough superoxide dismutase as there often is in a body that’s under stress, it’s losing its minerals. We’re losing the bioavailability of its minerals. The superoxide becomes hydrogen peroxide.

And then you say, “Relax, I’ve got catalase” and catalase is what’s going to turn that hydrogen peroxide into water and oxygen. So the cell can use that for other reactions. Well, catalase is iron-dependent and if the iron isn’t bioavailable for lack of copper, it becomes a really bad thing. It becomes a hydroxyl radical.

And so copper is pretty darn important to prevent free radicals. And so that whole dimension of understanding at a metabolic level inside the mitochondria, if copper is not there, there’s a lot of bad stuff that happens. The free radicals will basically bring cell death because it wears it out. It’s got to neutralize that and if it can’t neutralize it, it will die.

And that’s the mechanism behind a lot of these neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s and multiple sclerosis. It’s a very subtle dimension, but it’s because of copper not being properly bound to its protein because of stress and stressors.

And it’s huge. It’s absolutely huge.

Wendy: Yeah, that was a very detailed, intricate yet simple explanation. It’s really beautiful.

Morley Robbins: I hope it helps.

39:49 Symptoms Related to Copper Deficiency

Wendy: So why don’t we first go into detail about copper deficiency specifically. You listed a lot of health conditions and

things of that nature in general. But what are the specific symptoms in the health conditions related only to copper deficiency?

Morley Robbins: Well, people who have energy problems – fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, adrenal fatigue – the likely culprit is a key enzyme that’s part of the electron transport chain, which is what’s taking place inside those energy furnaces, the mitochondria. The enzyme is called cytochrome c oxidase. Cytochrome c oxidase in fact requires copper to be present. It’s what transfers electrons at a key step in the process to oxygen so that it can go off and become water. It’s a very important step. And if that does not happen, ATP cannot be made inside the cell.

So if the copper is not available for that enzyme, the energy production will go south. So cytochrome c oxidase is one of the grand daddy enzymes in the body and it’s particularly important for energy production and then of course, the ATP won’t work unless magnesium is attached to it. That’s really what brings it to life, the magnesium.

So ATP is dependent upon both copper and magnesium in order to be available for the body. The other biggie is we are held together by tissue. Our bones are held together by ligaments and tendons and all of that is made possible by an enzyme called lysyl oxidase. Again, copper dependent.

Well, if lysyl oxidase isn’t around, hearts begin to enlarge (enlarged heart, congestive heart failure, I’m sure people have heard of that), aneurysms, blood vessels need of collagen and elastin, which are made possible by lysyl oxidase in order to work properly. So if someone has a stroke, it’s caused by a lack of lysyl oxidase. So that’s a very important mechanism.

Another biggie that I’ve mentioned before, like PAM, the energy regulation at the extremities is very important. The hypothalamus is constantly monitoring the environment and the body to say, “Is

everything okay?” Well, if it doesn’t have the copper, you can’t properly regulate temperature in the extremities, which becomes

a very big issue for people and a lot of discomfort as a result of that.

Another biggie is – I alluded to it earlier – but a key step in the production of neurotransmitters is to take tyrosine plus a key enzyme called dopamine beta mono-oxygenase, which requires copper and that turns it into dopamine. That’s a very important step to take place in the body because dopamine is very

important for the drive, just that desire to want things and to keep

it in a healthy balance.

When there isn’t enough copper to do that, you get dopamine deficiency and that’s what’s behind all craving – craving for sugar, craving for alcohol, craving for drugs, craving for gambling. You name it, dopamine deficiency is at the center of all that. So that DBM enzyme is pretty darn important for the proper functioning of the body.

I think there are some very key mechanism that allow the body to work properly and if copper is not present, that’s just not going to happen. The body begins to act out and begin to behave in a very untoward way.

The enzyme that I just mentioned a little bit ago, the copper-zinc SOD, that superoxide dismutase is profoundly important inside the cell. There’s a lot of research that’s coming out now (most of

it outside of this country, by the way) that is beginning to realize that that mechanism of copper-zinc SOD, if that’s deficient, the cell begins to basically fall apart.

And that’s where a lot of metabolic dysregulation takes place right there with the lack of that one. Between SOD and the cytochrome c oxidase, we can bring the cell basically to its knees all because of a lack of one mineral, all because of a lack of one

protein called ceruloplasm. It’s kind of mind-boggling when you think about it.

Wendy: Yeah. Yeah, I know for myself when I started taking copper, I could not believe how much better I started feeling.

Morley Robbins: Yeah! See, the thing is yesterday, I was reading this fascinating article about autoimmune disease. Everyone is talking about autoimmune diseases – multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s. These are all autoimmune diseases. Hashimoto’s, autoimmune disease.

And what this particular author is suggesting is it’s caused by a lack of copper and that the way he described is what I thought was very funny. He was talking about his partner, zinc is really important for immune function. It turns out that copper, zinc and iron are all three very important for immune function.

But in his explanation, he was saying that think of zinc as sort of the mechanic repairing your car. When the mechanic starts to act out, the last thing that you want to do is start to give the mechanic a bunch of coffee, which is only going to make it more excited. He’ll start destroying cars at an even faster rate.

What’s really needed is the copper to calm down the immune response. That’s one of the roles that it plays, help modulate that zinc that becomes hyperbolic.

I thought it was a very apt explanation for it. But think of all the people who have these conditions that they think are a disease when in fact, it’s just a mineral that’s missing, but it happens to be a really important mineral. And like in your own case, Wendy, you found out that, “Boy! I feel a lot better when I have some copper.”

So I was reading further in this article and they started to describe the copper that’s available in the liver. It was comparing beef liver to chicken liver to turkey liver to lamb liver to goose liver. There was an, “Oh, my God!” moment when I realized that there’s a huge difference in the amount of copper that’s available in a calf’s liver or lamb liver or goose liver, which are very, very high, maybe three times higher than daily dose versus what you would find in beef liver or chicken liver or turkey liver.

And then you look at what people talk about, these copper-rich foods like avocados and cashews. There’s just little pittance of copper in those products. But the real concentration is in the liver, which makes sense because that’s where the liver is stored – principally in the brain, in the liver and the kidney of most animal’s bodies.

It’s just fascinating that we don’t think about, “Well, there’s a reason why it’s stored there, because it must need it.” For the metabolism of the brain and the kidneys and the liver to work properly (and we shouldn’t excluded the heart), for these major metabolic organs, they must have a constant source of energy. They must have a constant source of taking away the oxidative rust that’s taking place as a result of all that energy production. And copper is working both sides of that process.

It’s phenomenal when you think about the role that it plays in the body, yet it’s been held as a demonic force from Mars. It’s like it doesn’t make any sense.

49:49 Liver in the Diet

Wendy: So speaking of liver, so you recommend that people eat various kinds of animal livers.

Morley Robbins: Yeah, I do it regularly. One of the world’s authorities on copper as I’ve mentioned earlier is Leslie Klevay. She’s now retired. She’s a brilliant MD, PhD who focused on

copper. I was talking with him several months ago and I asked him, I said, “So, how do you get the proper balance of zinc, copper and iron?” He said, “Well, there are certain foods you have to eat.” I said, “What would those foods be?” He laughed, he said, “Well, probably the best source is liver because it’s a perfect balance of copper, zinc and iron.”

Now, the challenge is finding the right source because you don’t want to eat commercial. You’re going to want to get a grass-fed animal that has been raised properly, but that’s what our ancestors did. There’s not one person who’s listened to this that doesn’t know – either their parents or their grandparents that ate liver at least once a week. There’s a reason why they did that. Our ancestors knew that those animal organ meats were very rich in minerals and played a very important role in supporting our metabolism.

And if I’m offending the people who are vegetarian or vegan, forgive me, but there’s a rich legacy of research via Weston A. Price and others who pretty much established that we are dependent on these animal sources of protein, animal sources of oils and fatty acids.

And also, what I’ve come to realize – I can’t prove it, but I have this theory now, Wendy – the copper that you get out of a liver is completely different than the copper you get out of an avocado. I think the copper in that liver is already bound and isn’t as problematic as the copper in that vegetable that doesn’t have the ceruloplasm. It can’t because it’s not an animal. Only an animal will have the ceruloplasm molecule.

Wendy: Yeah. Like you said for iron, there’s non-heme iron in plants that are not as bioavailable and the heme iron in red meat that is immediately usable by our body because it’s in the correct form.

Morley Robbins: Right! Now that you brought that up, just so that folks understand, you cannot make heme without copper. It’s impossible. And so, iron gets all the notoriety, but the heme molecule is absolutely dependent on copper for its production – not an insignificant thing to know.

The level of confusion about the copper-iron issue is staggering particularly in the allopathic community. They have it completely backwards. And the word that I am now coining to talk about allopaths is the fruitalia that you get at Starbucks is called affogato. That means ‘backwards’ in Italian. They’ve got it completely backwards. They’re totally affogato about copper and iron.

53:25 Tests for Revealing Copper Dysregulation

Wendy: Yeah. Well, let’s talk about that. This is one of the tests that reveal copper deficiency is testing ferritin levels. Let’s talk about that and any other test that you like to perform with your clients to reveal copper deficiency.

Morley Robbins: Well, the easiest task to at least get a grip on what’s going on is certainly the hair test. And in many situations, the majority of situations, people have low copper. Occasionally, you’ll find people with super high copper, which is a clear indication of a toxic situation. But even with the low copper, you can pretty much bet that there’s copper being stored in the liver.

So what I’ve done and what I think other practitioners like yourself are beginning to do is do blood testing to further validate what in fact is taking place. That’s where we begin to get into what is the magnesium status, so we get a sense of where’s their stress level. So a mag RBC will be very indicative of what’s the inverse of that as it relates to ACTH.

Look at the zinc, the plasma zinc and the serum copper, see what the dynamic is between those two minerals. Look at the serum ceruloplasm to see how well they’re producing it.

I would say easily two-thirds of the clients that I’ve tested have low ceruloplasm and almost every one of those is directly the result of hyper-supplementation with vitamin D. It’s pretty striking.

And then the other side that you’ve just alluded to is on the iron side, to begin to look at ferritin molecule and the protein. It’s the storage protein for iron, but it’s copper dependent as are all of the other iron proteins like ferroportin and transferrin and hephaestin. I’m forgetting a couple of them. But even the iron hormone, hepcidin is copper dependent. And that’s the part that doctors don’t understand. These proteins require copper in order to function properly. And that’s one of the quirks of the human body.

So anyone who has low ferritin, I would strongly encourage that they get a serum iron and a percent saturation, which is going to be looking at the transferrin to find out what their overall status is because very often, what will happen is people have normal iron, normal transferrin (which will show up as normal percent saturation) and they’ll have low ferritin. And then the doctor will say, “Oh, you need to be taking iron supplements,” which will then shut down the copper metabolism.

What is far more effective and actually metabolically correct is the person’s – that’s an indication that they are copper deficient and that what they really need is whole food vitamin C. That vitamin C molecule will help to stimulate the absorption of iron and allow then proper restoration of the ferritin as a storage protein.

Wendy: So just to be clear, listeners out there, if you have low ferritin, it’s a likely sign of copper deficiency.

Morley Robbins: Yeah. I mean, who connects those dots? So

just to have some fun with it, if folks wanted to become farmers

of an orange grove to make oranges, what they have to do is

make sure there’s a lot of iron in the soil for those citrus trees. You think, “Okay, so why is that important?” Well, iron in the soil


what allows the citrus tree to make oranges that have vitamin


in them. It’s actually the iron in the soil that allows the copper


get inside the vitamin C molecule that’s inside the oranges.

You think, “Okay. Well, that’s pretty cool. So now, let’s eat the

orange.” So you eat the orange, it’s got the vitamin C molecule and what happens? That vitamin C molecule goes into the intestine and it’s greeted by a protein called hephaestin.

Hephaestin is the protein in the duodenum that in fact takes the iron out of the food. But what activates the hephaestin is actually the copper in the vitamin C. And so then that hephaestin, once it’s activated by the vitamin C molecule carries the iron to transferrin. And then the transferrin carries it to ferritin.

And all those hand-offs are made possible because of the copper ion that was in that vitamin C, which was inside that orange.

And that’s the beauty of the iron-copper metabolism and how interdependent they are from the soil into the soil of our body called our intestine.

Wendy: I love these explanations that you have. I love talking to you so much, Morley, because you always break things down, difficult subjects in a really simple way that helps people to understand the concepts.

Morley Robbins: Well, I do it because that’s the way I need to understand. I don’t understand it if I read it in a scientific article. It drives me crazy. I’ve got to break it down, so I can understand it. And if I can understand it, then maybe others can understand it.

59:36 Histamine Levels and Copper Deficiency

Wendy: And so another test that can reveal copper deficiency is histamine levels. So can you talk a little bit about histamine levels and what someone is going to be looking for on their test to show that they’re deficient in copper?

Morley Robbins: Yeah, good point. Histamine is a critical molecule. It’s designed to protect us from our environment. It’s very natural. It plays a very key regulatory role. But when it gets out of control, that’s when it becomes a problem. The term that’s used now is ‘histamine intolerance’.

It’s fascinating that the histamines are stored inside cells called mast cells. Well, mast cell production increases when people are under stress. Actually, the trigger is magnesium deficiency. It leads to an increase in mast cell.

And what’s a known fact is that people who are magnesium deficient are more sensitive to their environment. Well, that greater sensitivity is translated into more mast cells, so that when exposed to foods or chemicals that either have high histamines or trigger a histamine response, there’s this incredible explosion of histamine through the body.

Well, the body also has enzymes to break down the histamines. They’re called anti-histamines. We’ve heard that term probably since we were little. Well, the two enzymes are DAO (diamine oxidase) and HNMT (histamine n-methyltransferase).

So it turns out that DAO works on histamines outside the cell and HNMT works on histamines inside the cell. Well, both of those enzymes require three nutrients to work properly. They require copper, magnesium and vitamin B6. Ding, ding, ding! And what happens when people are under stress? What do they lose? They lose magnesium, B vitamins and the copper goes rogue.

And so they lose the very nutrients that they need to make those enzymes work to control the histamine response.

And what happens is people can be on both sides on histamine issue. Histamine levels can be really low because of too much copper in their body or those histamines can be really, really high because of copper deficiency.

The individual who really did the breakthrough work on this is called Pfeifer. He was an MD, PhD. I believe he’s a psychiatrist. A lot of work is in a center in Princeton, New Jersey. He coined the phrase histopedia and histadelia (I think is the other term for the high). Histopedia is low histamine and histadelia is high histamine.

What he was able to do was link the histamine level to someone who had tendencies towards schizophrenia or depression. It’s absolutely fascinating. And if your blood histamine levels are below 40, you have very low histamine, which means you have excess copper and if your histamine level is above 70, it means you have excess histamines from two little copper.

And those are the flip sides of the histamine coin. But the key, what’s missing are copper, magnesium and B6 that is causing a complete disruption of the histamine response.

There’s a wonderful article at the American Journal of Critical Nutrition. The author’s name is Maintz. I think it’s from 2008 and it’s called ‘Histamine and Histamine Intolerance’. You can Google it and then the full article will come up.

I would encourage the listeners to study figure 1 in that article and your jaw will drop when they realize that histamine intolerance is behind this wide spectrum of chronic disease that they had no idea – heart disease and neurotransmitter issues and gut dysbiosis, all of the allergies and stuff that we would expect.

So many other chronic conditions are from a histamine issue and there are four histamine receptors (H1, H2, H3 and H4) and those receptors get affected by this (which they do) that that is very disruptive and very problematic for people to have a normal metabolism when they’re not able to break down the histamines properly.

Wendy: Yeah, I think I found this really, really interesting when I first started studying hair mineral analysis and adrenal fatigue, et cetera, that adrenal fatigue causes the copper dysregulation and that causes high histamines and food sensitivities and multiple chemical sensitivity and these people are on a healing program like we do using hair mineral analysis and balancing of the minerals and healing of the adrenal glands, people’s food sensitivities and allergies go away within the first year.

Many, many of my clients who had really severe food allergies and food sensitivities and histamine intolerance, they just slowly, but surely disappear once they fix these copper issues and related adrenal fatigue issues, et cetera.

Morley Robbins: Yeah, once you restore the mineral status and

the vitamins that are very much a part of it, you would actually expect the body would go back to normal regulation.

I mean, this whole idea that there’s such a thing as medical

disease, it’s so laughable. There really isn’t. I refuse to believe that there is such a thing as medical disease. There’s a lot of metabolic dysfunction and all of that has been caused by mineral deficiencies, but this notion that there’s a disease?

I mean, this whole idea that there’s the germ theory? Pasteur

was a fraud! The New York Times had an amazing article about it. I think it was in 2008 (something like 2008 and 2010 time frame) where a medical historian took all 10,000 pages of Pasteur’s work and realized that he was a fraud. And that’s what the headline was in the New York Times, ‘Pasteur was a Fraud.’

But yet, everyone has this conviction, “Oh, I don’t want to catch the flu.” You don’t catch the flu, you allow the flu because your mineral imbalance is such that you don’t have the proper mineral composition to create a proper immune response. And yet people have been so conditioned that disease comes from outside. It’s very sad that people had become so programmed the way they have.

Wendy: Yeah, I agree. I think the more I learn about the true underlying cause of disease is just nutrition deficiencies and heavy metal and chemical toxicities and that you can reverse these and you can reverse disease. I see it every day in my practice. It’s unbelievable!

Morley Robbins: Yeah. No, absolutely, I totally agree. And I would not have believed because I was raised in a very allopathic family. My sister is a nurse and worked for the industry for a long time and I worshipped at that altar. And now, with what I know, I’m like, “Oh, my gosh! This infrastructure, this medical, industrial complex is mind-boggling.”

Wendy: It’s a scam.

Morley Robbins: It is a scam.

Wendy: It’s a complete scam.

Morley Robbins: It’s a total, total scam.

Wendy: Yeah.

Morley Robbins: And that’s why I tell clients that if the doctor that they go to has an MD, that degree stands for ‘mineral denialist’. They refuse to believe anything you and I had been talking about for the last 60 minutes.

Wendy: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think if I get in a car wreck, I want to go to a hospital if I have some sort of acute injury. If I do, God forbid, get cancer or something, I want to go to a doctor to get diagnosed, not treated. I think medicine is very good at diagnosis, but healing disease? Not going to happen. They manage diseases with medication. I think surgery and meds, they’re last, last, last resort after you’ve spent years using natural means to address your health issues.

Morley Robbins: Well, that’s what I think the MD degree stands for, they ‘manage disease’. They don’t cure it, they just manage it because that’s where their cash flow comes from, by managing the disease.

Wendy: Yeah.

Morley Robbins: Pretty straightforward.

Wendy: Well, that is the end of part one of copper dysregulation with Morley Robbins. The podcast was two hours long, so sorry if I burst your bubble there. I cut it off right in the middle. But we’re going to continue next week with part two of copper dysregulation with Morley Robbins.

If you want to learn how to heal copper dysregulation, how to address copper dysregulation and all the issues that we discussed today on this show, you definitely want to check out my program called Mineral Power at It’s a comprehensive healing program using proper diet, proper supplementation customized to your body chemistry, lifestyle changes and detoxification. That’s a very, very important component missing in many people’s health regimes.

This is a program that I’ve used to help regulate my copper that I use with my clients to help regulate copper. So I definitely urge you to go take a look at it.

Listeners, thank you so much for taking this hour out to listen to the podcast. I really appreciate your support so much. I have so much fun doing the shows. I would so appreciate it if you’d take just two seconds out of your time if you enjoyed what you’ve heard today to leave me a review and rating in iTunes. That helps me get up in that search engine so that I can spread my message on health to more and more people. Thank you so much for listening to the Live to 110 podcast.

PART 2 -


Transcript of


· 03:46 Copper Toxicity Symptoms and Conditions

· 07:55 Tests for Determining Copper Toxicity

· 13:42 Complexity of Diagnosing Copper Dysregulation

· 20:36 Fixing Copper Dysregulation

· 31:29 A Liver Healthy Diet

· 33:09 More About Copper Supplementation

· 36:21 Effective Forms of Copper Supplements

· 38:26 Zinc and Zinc Supplementation

· 41:25 Copper and Hormones

· 48:27 MTHFR and Copper

· 53:01 Contact Morley Robbins

Wendy Myers: Hello everyone. My name is Wendy Myers. You are listening to the Live to 110 Podcast. This is my dog, Jezebel for you guys who are watching the video. I thought she just might make a little cam appearance today. She’s my little pet Pomeranian.

But today, we are going to be talking about copper disregulation on the podcast. This is part two of a two-part podcast. I did this podcast with Morley Robbins who’s our guest today. It was such an interesting subject and I had so many questions that it ended up being two hours. So we split this podcast up into two parts. So be sure before you listen to this podcast, part two, listen to part one of copper dysregulation.

Morley Robbins believes that most health issue stem from copper dysregulation in the body, which is basically caused by adrenal fatigue. We’re going to be going over many, many aspects of how this happens, why it happens and how you can correct it.

But first, I have to do the disclaimer, please keep in mind that this podcast is not intended to diagnose or treat any disease or health condition and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. Please consult your health care practitioner before engaging in any treatments today that we suggest on this show.

I highly recommend you try one of our new products we have in

the store, the Live to 110 Store called Glutenza. It’s an amazing product that helps to pulverize gluten proteins. It also helps to break down soy, corn, dairy and other proteins that could be problematic for those with food sensitivities.

I use it as a tool when I go out to eat. You don’t always know if

there’s gluten in the food or there’s a few crumbs of gluten coming from preparing other foods that just happen to contaminate your food. And for those with gluten sensitivity like myself, that can cause a reaction in your body, an immune reaction and drain your energy, drain your immune system, et cetera.

So Glutenza is a cutting-edge, unique product. That’s something

It also contains probiotics and prebiotics that assist in improving

your gut health, which will also help to break down gluten. It’s just an amazing product and I’m recommending it now to all my clients. So definitely check that out. It’s at

Our guest today is Morley Robbins. He is the founder of the Magnesium Advocacy Group, which can be found at Mr. Robbins has a mainstream medical industry background. Morley was a hospital executive and consultant for 32 years, but left to become a wellness coach and health practitioner. Mr. Robbins has completed the Wellness Coach’s Training Certificate as well as the Institute for Integrative Nutrition Training. He also has a BA in Biology and an MBA in Healthcare Administration.

Morley is an expert on minerals. We talked on a previous podcast about magnesium. Obviously, he loves magnesium. His website is called the Magnesium Advocacy Group, but copper is

a very important mineral as well. So now, for today’s podcast on copper disregulation, part two.

03:46 Copper Toxicity Symptoms and Conditions

Wendy Myers: Let’s talk about copper toxicity now, the flipside. Can you explain what are the symptoms and health conditions specifically related to copper toxicity?

Morley Robbins: It’s a great question at the risk of confusing folks. I think that what’s masked in all copper toxicity are three deficiencies. Copper toxicity will by its very nature lead to a zinc deficiency because there’s an appropriate balance between zinc and copper in the body. And when there’s too much copper, there will be a relative deficiency of zinc. That will affect digestion, that will affect immune response, that will affect a lot of skin issues that are from too little zinc relative to the amount of copper in the body. So that’s the first deficiency.

The second deficiency is that in fact, the copper toxicity creates copper deficiency because of the lack of the protein, ceruloplasm. So there’s high levels of unusable copper and very, very low levels of usable copper all for the lack of that protein. And so that metabolic deficiency of copper then leads to iron deficiency.

The reason why I’m bringing this up is that people fixate on the copper toxicity and the issues of depression or ADD. The real mechanism behind leaky gut is excess copper. It punches a hole in the tissue. That’s how destructive it can be.

There’s a lack of science where leaky gut came from, mostly, it probably came from the antibiotics that people took because they had some immune imbalance caused by the mineral imbalance that preceded it. But the point is the condition to believe that there’s copper toxicity when in fact I think it’s hiding and masking some very important deficiencies, zinc, copper and iron in the body.

Some people have all three, some just have one. That’s the amazing thing. Why does one person express their copper issue with just one dimension versus all three; zinc, copper and iron being out? I can’t explain that. But I think the copper toxicity is also a state of – a lot of people get into what’s called a ‘wired and tired’ state where their mind can’t shut down, but they’re exhausted in their body. That’s probably the most notable that people have from copper toxicity. It’s just that wired and tired feeling.

Liver congestion: people are always talking about doing a liver detox. People may have heard the expression ‘liver shiners’. They’ve got these dark circles under their eyes. Well, that’s actually a result of a build-up of bio-unavailable copper and iron in the liver and it expresses itself as those dark circles under the eyes. Again, that’s from too much unbound copper that’s preventing the liver to produce the protein that it needs.

Does that make sense?

Wendy Myers: Yes, absolutely.

07:55 Tests for Determining Copper Toxicity

Wendy Myers: And so what test do you do to determine copper toxicity because it’s not so simple. It’s very complex. It’s not as simple as a hair mineral analysis or just any one blood test? What specific tests do you use if someone is copper toxic.

Morley Robbins: It’s a combination of the hair test with the blood test. We look at the zinc-to-copper ratio. I look at the absolute level of copper and look at the absolute production of ceruloplasm.

I also take into account to what extent is iron an issue. And then my intake form is designed to – there’s a way to discern what copper enzymes aren’t working. That gives me a sense of ‘to what extent am I dealing with a toxicity issue versus a deficiency issue or both’. And that’s the dilemma; people can manifest both. They may have toxicity in their brain and deficiency in the body or it may be the inverse of that.

And one of the things that I failed to mention that I think is important particularly for some of the younger listeners is that one of the most important jobs of their mom in the last trimester – and this is in a perfect world, but one of the most important jobs of the mom is to infuse the fetus’ liver with 10 to 20 times more copper and iron than they’re going to carry as an adult.

That’s the mom’s job because the breast milk of the human doesn’t have a lot of copper and iron in it. This is true of all mammals. It’s not just humans. The breast milk of mammals does not have a lot of copper and iron and so the body bulks up the liver.

And then what’s supposed to happen in a perfect world is the baby pops out on their birthday and the adrenals wake up and say, “Hey, let’s start making some of that ceruloplasm thing and start moving this copper and iron out so that the tissues in the brain and the liver and the kidney and all over can start to grow” because copper and iron are really important for growth issues.

That’s in a perfect world.

Wendy Myers: I just want to side note, when I was pregnant, I could not stop eating goose liver pate or foie gras. I could not stop eating because my body just naturally craved it. And unfortunately in California (this happened after my pregnancy), Arnold Schwarzenegger outlawed the production of foie gras in California.

Morley Robbins: That’s a lot of copper that was going in. So that’s in a perfect world. In the real world, most moms are stress cadets. They tap into the adrenals of their infants. The placenta is a major organ for minerals. And second only to the liver, the placenta is the highest concentration of copper in a woman’s body.

And so mom is stressed out, tapping into the adrenals of the baby, on the baby’s birthday, it pops out and they look more like Benjamin Buttons. They don’t have the adrenal juice to signal the liver to say, “It’s okay to make that ceruloplasm.” And so they start off life with this massive amount of copper and iron that doesn’t get moved out as efficiently as it should because it needs to be moving out on that first year of life. That’s one of the key metabolic tasks of the infant in the first year of life, to be moving the copper and iron out so that the body can grow properly.

When that can’t happen, it’s very disruptive. And I think what we’re witnessing now is this uptake of jaundice, uptake of all sorts of digestive issues, kids that are being given proton pump inhibitors as infants. Are you serious? And all that’s because of

excess copper overwhelming the zinc that’s needed to make the stomach acid.

And so there’s all sorts of metabolic dysregulation that goes back to our mom, their role as being the mineral transfer from the placenta to the baby, a lot of this imbalance there is taking place.

Wendy Myers: Yeah, I agree. I test a lot of babies and some of them are born with adrenal fatigue issues.

Morley Robbins: Sure, absolutely because they’re wiped out. Their moms are wiped out. How can you expect – one of the great lies of society is that babies are born perfect. No, apples don’t fall far from trees. So if the mom is a mess, how can you possibly expect the baby to be okay?

Wendy Myers: Yeah, it’s interesting also, the correlation when I test the mothers and their children, their tests are very, very similar. And it happens over and over and over. They both have really high copper or really high other mineral level. It’s very interesting.

Morley Robbins: And what I’m doing, I do that myself. And when I do that test, I always have the mom compare the mineral profiles to their children and they’re shocked. They’re like, “Oh, my gosh! They’re just a mini-me.” I say, “That’s exactly right.”

Wendy Myers: Yeah! Because the baby cannot get minerals the mom doesn’t have and it gets the heavy metal and chemical sensitivity the mother has as well.

Morley Robbins: That’s right, ding-ding-ding.

Wendy Myers: Yeah.

13:42 Complexity of Diagnosing Copper Dysregulation

Wendy Myers: And so let’s talk about the complex issue of diagnosing copper dysregulation because it’s not as simple as going to your doctor and getting a copper blood test. If it’s high or low, then that determines whether you have copper deficiency or toxicity, it doesn’t work that way.

We touched on a little bit with each corresponding deficiency and toxicity of copper. Can you talk a little bit about – just give us a whole overview of how complex it is to diagnose so to speak someone that has copper dysregulation.

Morley Robbins: You know what? It’s tricky because there’s symptoms that surface from what we would be trained to call ‘hormone imbalance’, but you and I know it is zinc and copper imbalance because it takes copper to make the enzyme to make estrogen and it takes zinc to work to make progesterone. There’s also a few dynamics around. People have been conditioned that their hormone imbalance is caused by hormones when in fact, it’s caused by an imbalance of zinc and copper.

And then there are some classic signs of just pure copper dysregulation like the inability to lose weight or having low blood sugar or chronic UTI’s or craving carbohydrates or acne or having an inventive mind or high blood pressure or headaches, especially migraines. Migraine and histamine intolerance and zinc, copper, B6 are all basically the same thing. Migraines are really traced back to histamine intolerance – sensitivities to chronic yeast issues, ADD.

One of the things that people have to be aware of is that if they are vegetarian or vegan, they’re going to have a greater likelihood of having copper issues just because of the nature of the food. Animal food has more zinc in it, so it’s more of a zinc copper balance. Vegetable food doesn’t have the zinc. So you’re getting a much higher concentration of copper, which is going to lead to more imbalance.

Wendy Myers: Yeah. I mean, there’s a little bit in pumpkin seeds and sunflower seeds, but how many of those can you eat. You can’t eat enough and it’s not in the bioavailable form that’s more desirable by the body.

Morley Robbins: Exactly. So I think the key is that – it sounds a little bit unbelievable, but the vast majority of people’s problems are going to trace their way back to copper dysregulation and what got them there was some stressor that is altered in the breakdown of the production of ceruloplasm in the liver. That sounds really simplistic, but the more I study, the more I’m like, “Oh, my gosh!” That’s really what it is.

Wendy Myers: Yeah, I mean that’s why women are so sick. They’re all stressing out. Our bodies are just not meant for modern life. And people, they have to slow down. They have to say no. They have to take their activities. They can’t exercise six days a week and these horrible fast food diets create all these stressors. People just have to get back to a more simple lifestyle. It’s extremely hard for people to do especially health professionals like myself.

Morley Robbins: Well, it’s true. We live in a Starbucks-crazed world. What does coffee do? It brings in a lot of copper, which stimulates us beyond belief. So we live in a hyper-stimulated, hyper-sympathetic environment where we think it’s normal to drive to work eating our breakfast, listening to the news, checking our emails while putting on our eye make-up. That’s considered normal.

Wendy Myers: Yeah.

Morley Robbins: That’s not normal. It’s very fatiguing for the body.

Wendy Myers: Yeah, hunter/gatherers worked a 17-hour work week. Seventeen hours, they didn’t work that much. And the rest

of the times, they spent relaxing with their families, et cetera. So our bodies are just not cut out for 40 to 60 hour work weeks eating stimulants all day long.

Morley Robbins: And what we’re craving are the foods that are typically – when copper is available in the body, we don’t have the cravings that we typically have. You don’t have the cravings for sugar and caffeine. You just don’t need them because the body is naturally producing energy.

Wendy Myers: Yeah, a lot of my clients that are having trouble losing weight or they’re gaining weight really easily, their will power so to speak out of control, they can’t stop stuffing their face with sugar and carbs. I’ve been there before myself. Biology will always trump will power. You’re not weak, you just don’t have the minerals your body needs to function. So naturally, you’re going to crave energy-inducing substances like sugar, processed grains, cookies, crackers, et cetera, and coffee and other stimulants or drugs even, stimulating drugs to get you to feel better.

Everyone just wants to feel better and the body will biologically naturally drive people to behaviors that make them feel better.

Morley Robbins: Right! The body is designed for homeostasis. It’s a fancy word for balance. And when you feed the body the nutrients that it needs, the minerals, amino acids and the essential fatty acids, it knows exactly what to do.

And the prime part of the body that basically runs the body is called the hypothalamus. It’s a very mineral-rich part of the brain, but the two most important minerals are magnesium and copper. It’s no accident that they need that.

Wendy Myers: Yeah. And so listeners, any of you who are interested in finding out if you have copper dysregulation, both Morley and myself, there’s a handful of other practitioners (not

that many of us) do hair mineral analysis and blood testing to figure out copper dysregulation in the body because like I said, it’s not as simple as just doing one blood test or maybe two to make that determination. You have to use a blood test, hair mineral analysis and look at people’s symptoms in addition to make that determination.

20:36 Fixing Copper Dysregulation

Wendy Myers: And so now that you’ve established that you have copper toxicity, copper dysregulation, copper deficiency, how do you fix it? That’s what people want to know, “How do I fix this mess?” So what kind of program do you put your clients on as far as foods or supplementation?

Morley Robbins: Oh, I don’t. They’re screwed. Once they’ve got it, they’ve got it for life. That’s too bad. I just diagnose them, then I just leave them, you know?

Wendy Myers: [laughing]

Morley Robbins: That’s the tricky part. When I first got into this earlier this year – actually, it was like February of this year. So I’m not even a year into this. It feels like the longest year of my life, trying to know more about copper. When I got in, I bought the “copper is bad” and I was bulking people up on with zinc.

Wendy Myers: Yeah, I was too.

Morley Robbins: And then, oh, my God, creating all sorts of copper deficiencies. It took me three or four months to figure that out. My focus is not to worry about the copper (really, I don’t even worry about it), but I focus on the liver and making sure that people are not doing those four things that are so bad for the liver production of ceruloplasm – making sure that they’re not taking vitamin D, making sure that they’re not eating ascorbic

acid or high fructose corn syrup and making sure that they are bringing their stress patterns back into balance.

And one of the things that I do for every client that I work with is recommend emotional freedom technique to make sure that they are letting go of their emotions because the unresolved emotions are what trigger mineral loss and the state of helplessness and hopelessness is the most damaging of all. People have these wiring patterns from traumatic events and they don’t let go of them, but EFT will help them let go of them.

So I really encourage people to do that as a way to bring that stress profile down and allow the magnesium to restore its full…

Wendy Myers: Yeah, I find that incredibly interesting. It’s one of my New Year’s resolution actually, find an EFT practitioner and engage in that and do some releasing. That’s very important, emotional detox.

Morley Robbins: It really is. The reason why people struggle with it is it’s too simple, but it really works.

So I start there. Then I make sure that they’re getting good sources of retinol in their diet. It’s either cod liver oil and making sure that they’re eating a very rich diet of essential fatty acids – I’m just giving them fat-soluble proteins. And making sure that the intake of whole food vitamin C is significant, about 500 mg. to 800 mg. a day and that they are taking a B complex, which is very important.

The B’s are really key to the liver production, particularly B2 and biotin are very, very important. There’s a very key role that B2 plays in helping to balance copper and iron in the liver. So I’m not entirely sure what riboflavin does, but I just go with the literature.

And making sure that they’ve got a good source of boron that they’re getting because boron plays a role in ceruloplasm production.

Wendy Myers: I always tell my clients to eat prunes. They’re very high in boron.

Morley Robbins: Yeah. No, that’s a great source of them. I think on occasion, like maybe once a year, to do a liver detox although

I think people tend to overdo their detoxes. I think there’s a major

reaction that people have to, “I’ve got to do a liver detox” when in fact, the liver’s job is to detox. That’s what it’s designed to do.

And I think there’s a lot of manual overrides for a naturally functioning organ. But I think the key is making sure that they are properly supporting the liver.

The other thing I’m reading more about is homeopathic intervention. And apparently, there’s a homeopathic called cuprum metallicum and that that helps individuals who are having copper issues. I’ve not done a lot of work with it. I’m just reading about it now. But I would certainly throw that out there because that’s another possibility.

I know with clients who are having difficulty with magnesium

where there’s almost like a resistance to magnesium, I encourage them to do a homeopathic mag-phos, magnesium phosphorica. It has a magical effect of re-inviting magnesium back into the body.

So cuprum metallicum may be another key agent in helping the body to re-create itself to proper copper regulation.

Wendy Myers: Do you like herbs like milk thistle extract like


Morley Robbins: Well, sure. But I think everything in moderation. I think what people tend to do is they don’t trust their

liver and so they’re constantly bombarding it. But in fact, our ancestors might have a problem and they might take that milk thistle for a finite period of time, but not every day because then the body loses its sensitivity to that very powerful and important herb.

Wendy Myers: Yeah. And so are there any other substances that you like to support the liver and support healthy copper metabolism?

Morley Robbins: Well, the other part of it that I really began to work with is I think the image that I would create is I think at the center of a key triangle is copper bound to ceruloplasm. Let’s call it the center of this triangle. And I think the three-quarters of the triangle have optimal levels of magnesium, sulfur and iodine. It turned out that iodine played a very key role in preparing the amino acids that are very important for ceruloplasm function. Sulfur plays a very important role in helping to keep copper in proper balance. And magnesium plays a very important role in obviously warding off stress, but also in helping to produce ceruloplasm.

So I don’t have a go-to formula just yet, but that’s where I’m going to focus in the coming years, really, the optimal levels of magnesium, iodine and sulfur to support the liver function, to support the overall production of proper regulation of copper and ceruloplasm in the body.

28:29 Copper Supplementation

Wendy Myers: Yeah, so let’s talk about copper supplementation because naturally, if someone has a deficiency, they likely needed to supplement with copper. But again, this is a delicate situation. Can you just explain a little bit about your theory and your method behind copper supplementation?

Morley Robbins: Well, the big dividing line certainly in the hair testing world is the slow versus the fast. The fast oxidizer has a metabolic need for copper that’s very different and distinct from the slow oxidizer. So that’s sort of a no-brainer. Very often, you see a fast oxidizer and you see if they have low copper, it’s a very quick step to recommend it and then you’ll feel better.

Wendy Myers: And listeners, if you have no idea what we’re talking about, on a hair mineral analysis, people are either a slow metabolizer or oxidizer or fast metabolizer or oxidizer.

Morley Robbins: Right. And it has to do with the electrolyte patterns. But the important point is that copper in a fast oxidizer is really very beneficial.

I think there’s inconsistency in how practitioners view copper and

slow oxidizer. Many practitioners are very cautious about it almost to the point of saying, “Avoid it like the plague.” But yet you have someone like Dietrich Klinghardt who feels very strongly that the body needs that copper in order to restore its metabolism. And I think that’s what I’m suggesting with the homeopathic, to introduce the energy of the copper in order to reawaken the body’s ability to work with it.

I don’t always use copper supplementation for slow oxidizers, but

I certainly encourage them to get it in their diet and get food-

based forms of it. I’m still trying to work through what the implications are and what I really focus on is not so much copper supplementation as, “Is the liver supporting its proper jobs of allowing the production of ceruloplasm?” and making sure that the liver is doing its work.

I think the function is so overlooked that we tend to obsess on

the mineral when in fact, the production of that protein is really

what’s key. And I think in a slow oxidizer, you can recommend the copper, but you want to make sure that their liver is able to properly support its presence in the body. I think that’s the key.

31:29 A Liver Healthy Diet

Wendy Myers: And so when you say you recommend your clients eat foods that are copper rich, we talked a little bit about liver, so what kind of foods over and above liver (the lamb liver, chicken liver, beef liver, et cetera), what kind of other foods do you like them to be eating?

Morley Robbins: Pumpkin seeds are really good, very rich source. But it’s also got good sources of magnesium and zinc too, which is nice to have that balance. People love chocolate – but not cocoa, but cacao. It’s a great source of copper (again, in moderation).

I don’t dissuade people from having nuts and the seeds, which are usually very rich in copper like sunflower seeds or cashews or almonds. Pecans, they’re very rich in copper. But I think people need to understand that I really do think there’s a difference in how that copper manifests in the body from a vegetable source versus from an animal source.

The only thing I think is key is making sure that there’s things like good fat-soluble vitamins from butter or from cod liver oil or sources like that to enable the proper production of liver function to support the mineral.

So again, it isn’t so much focusing on the minerals as much as focusing on the body’s ability to work with that mineral. It’s very different than a lot of the other minerals I think.

33:09 More About Copper Supplementation

Wendy Myers: And so as far as supplementation, like say someone is deemed to be copper deficient and they need to take copper, what is the fine line? Can you supplement too much copper and then promote more copper toxicity?

Morley Robbins: Yeah, I think it is possible. And that’s why I’m not as quick to supplement with copper as I am to get people to really significantly increase their intake of vitamin C (which has some copper in it), really focus on retinol (which is going to allow the production of ceruloplasm), make sure that they are supporting liver function and seeing how the body responds to food-based forms of it before I would start pushing a copper supplement.

Wendy Myers: Yeah.

Morley Robbins: I think you’ve got to be careful about overwhelming the body. But yet, then we’ve got someone like Leslie Klevay who’s very clear that the human body needs supplemental copper. He’s quick to say food-based forms are good, but he’s also very comfortable saying that people can benefit from supplemental copper. I don’t have enough conviction yet around the fast versus the slow. What I don’t want to do is create more disruption and that’s why I tend to be very conservative and see how people respond and follow-up hair test and blood test before I start to address more aggressive patterns.

Wendy Myers: Yeah, because too much copper can really drive the adrenal glands. It can really put that foot on that gas pedal and push.

Morley Robbins: Yeah, yeah. Exactly! And they may not be ready for that.

Wendy Myers: Many people are already in adrenal fatigue and it can exacerbate it if it’s too much for that client.

Morley Robbins: The thing is there are 30 essential minerals. There are 15 that get examined on the hair test and they all have very important roles in the body. Many of them are relatively easy to restore. I think for whatever reason, copper is the most

complicated to restore because of its connection with so many of the minerals and its essential role in the metabolism of the human body. It very easily goes into this door, this state of too much and too little and I think it’s very challenging for the average person to size up their situation and solve it.

And I was a huge advocate of democratizing health and getting people to figure their situation out, but copper is one aspect that I think requires some guidance and ongoing support to make sure they’re not going to do more harm than good.

36:21 Effective Forms of Copper Supplements

Wendy Myers: So when you do supplement copper, what forms do you like to give or what brand?

Morley Robbins: Well, after the whole food vitamin C and the liver, probably I turn to either Standard Process. They have a copper liver chelate, which is a very effective form.

Wendy Myers: And that’s extracted from actual livers, correct?

Morley Robbins: Uh-huh, exactly. And another option would be – Trace Minerals has a great product. It’s actually called zinc and it has 50 mg. of zinc and 2 mg. of copper and 10 mg. of magnesium, 3 mg. of boron. It’s a great combo product.

Wendy Myers: Is that with the Albion Minerals?

Morley Robbins: No, I think it’s Trace Minerals out of Salt Lake City.

Wendy Myers: Oh, okay. Yeah, it is a different company.

Morley Robbins: And then the other is Solgar. They have a combo zinc copper.


think it’s important that people not isolate copper away from

zinc. I think more often, the vast majority of the cases, people need both. The question would be what’s the concentration? I think there are some wonderful ways to get copper and I always tend to focus on the food-based forms before going to


Wendy Myers: And so the Trace Minerals, those are ionic minerals, right? They’re suspended in liquid.

Morley Robbins: Yup, yup.

Wendy Myers: Yup. Okay. So do you think those are as effective as chelated minerals, et cetera?

Morley Robbins: Oh, yeah, sure.

Wendy Myers: They just work different?

Morley Robbins: Yeah, ionic means it’s immediately available for transaction, it’s there. Chelation means that it’s got to be broken down, but it’s a recognized amino acid, but still requires a metabolic step.

38:26 Zinc and Zinc Supplements

Wendy Myers: And so let’s talk a little bit about zinc and how if you supplement with too much zinc, this can cause some issues with copper disregulation as well.

Morley Robbins: Yeah, that’s a whole other topic, but I think people again are being conditioned that “zinc is good, copper is bad and you can’t get enough zinc” and I think people are finding that they are creating a lot of issues.

people had enough zinc? So when we’re under stress, what do we lose? Magnesium, zinc and B vitamins. How do you make hydrochloric acid? Hmmm… magnesium, zinc, B1 and B6. Interesting.

So the thing is, zinc is important but this mono-mineral supplementation routine that we tend to fall prey to is very dangerous. I don’t think we were designed to be isolating specific minerals, per se. I think that’s where we can create as much harm as good when we start to dwell on one side over the other.

But we know that there are people like those that have – they need zinc and B6 because of – what it’s caused by is too much copper. But the point is there are situations where you do need to up the zinc. But when I’m in a situation like that, I will only have the client take it for maybe six weeks, eight weeks max. And then we test to see how are they responding to it.

This idea that I’m going to take zinc for the rest of my life, no, I don’t think that’s advisable. I don’t think the body needs that kind of ongoing support.

Wendy Myers: And I think as long as you’re eating red meat on

a regular basis, a couple of times a week, once you’ve re-

established your stores of zinc with a little bit of supplementation

if you need it, that eating and red meat and liver and other things can keep you replenished.

Morley Robbins: Yeah, exactly. The biochemical make-up of each person is very different because of the familiar patterns, the stressors that they’ve been under, the foods that they’ve been eating. We have very different compositions inside and you have to be very mindful of that. And I think you and I know that (as well as anyone who does hair tests) sees this very dramatic change from client to client to client about how their mineral patterns gets expressed and that that affects metabolic activity.

41:25 Copper and Hormones

Wendy Myers: And so let’s talk a little bit about how copper relates to hormone function because I think a lot of people don’t realize that copper levels are tied to estrogens in the body. So is it possible to have low estrogen and also have copper disregulation? But let’s first just talk about how copper relates to estrogen levels in the body.

Morley Robbins: The hormones get made from the enzymes. They don’t come from Mars. An enzyme is a vitamin, an amino acid and a mineral. I don’t know the exact name of the enzyme that makes estrogen, but there is one, but the mineral that makes that happen is copper.

And so there’s a very high correlation between copper and estrogen and we are being flooded with animal products where the animals have been coursed with estrogen for growth purposes like taking chickens that produce full-blown breast tissue within six weeks. It’s a little kind of frightening when you think about it. That comes from those hormones. But you can’t do that without copper.

It turns out that estrogen is actually an antioxidant. And so I think part of the connection is that ceruloplasm that we were talking about earlier is also an antioxidant. Why is that important? Well, an antioxidant is preventing oxidation. What causes oxidation? Copper and iron and a few other elements in the body. And so you want to bind up those agents of oxidation.

So when the body can’t make the ceruloplasm, I think one of the back-up mechanisms is to rely on estrogen as a way to bring up the copper. The body knows inherently that it’s under attack. It recognizes copper as a very significant player in the body. This goes back to years and years of programming. So it’s going to do something. If you can’t make the ceruloplasm, it’s got to do something to tie up the copper. And I think that one of the things

that has happened in modern society was this increased production of estrogen to try to use up that copper to capture it and to prevent it from its oxidating qualities.

Wendy Myers: Yeah, that’s why a lot of women that have copper IUDs and long-term use of birth control pills have pretty serious copper issues as a result.

Morley Robbins: They have copper issues and they also have pretty serious hormone issues. There are three elements that tend to run together in the body (and this comes out in the hair test). I call them the – my mind just went blank. What do I call them? Oh, the three bandidos because they rob you of your health and they are calcium, copper and estrogen. And most people who have high calcium or high copper or high estrogen will have the other two. They just have this really close metabolic relationship with the body.

The connection between copper and estrogen is pretty clear. I don’t have a good explanation for why the calcium is going to be high in that situation, but the point is it’s very disruptive to the body to have excess estrogen, to have excess copper and to have excess calcium. It will destroy your health.

Wendy Myers: Oh! Yeah, and let’s not forget bio-identical hormones as well.

Morley Robbins: Exactly! Yeah, and so now people are finding themselves with this exogenous form of hormone, which will disrupt mineral status. I see it all the time. It’s thought that they can either eat the hormone or rub it on their skin and that’s just another way of eating it and not have it be disruptive to the body. It doesn’t make sense.

I recognize that a lot of people out there get benefit from progesterone creams. Well, what that really means is they’re zinc deficiency and they’ll probably get a lot more benefit out of

having more oils in their diet, having a better balance between their zinc and copper and allowing the body to naturally make the progesterone than to be flooding the body with a synthetic form that the body doesn’t really recognize.

Wendy Myers: Yeah, because zinc is a precursor to making progesterone.

Morley Robbins: Exactly.

Wendy Myers: Yeah. And so that’s what I encourage a lot of my

clients. If they’re on bio-identical hormones, eventually wean off.

I don’t want anyone getting off their medications right away. And

of course, we want to do that in conjunction with their physician. There’s something to be said for relieving really uncomfortable symptoms with medications like this until natural means, mineral supplementation balancing can work their magic and completely eliminate the symptoms forever like doing a program like mine, Mineral Power, or like the program that you offer as well. I think that it’s extremely important to just correct the underlying imbalances other than just flood the body with external hormones that don’t work very well.

Morley Robbins: Yeah, the interesting thing is you and I sound like heretics in the modern world because we’re not pushing

bioidentical hormones. Jonathan Wright is very proud of the fact that he was instrumental in the creation of bioidentical hormones.

I think he did a major disservice to society with what he did.

Now, I think he’s a pretty cool guy. I think he’s done a lot of really good things for society with all his nutritional research, but that was not one of them. Bioidentical hormones was a step in the wrong direction as far as I’m concerned.

Wendy Myers: Yeah, I agree with you.

48:27 MTHFR and Copper

Wendy Myers: Well, Morley, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you want to add about copper disregulation that perhaps we didn’t touch on?

Morley Robbins: The only other one that I would mention – and it’s sort of like dropping a bomb at the end of the conversation – a lot of people are becoming well-versed in MTHFR and the whole dynamic of transcription errors and snips and what they’re being conditioned to believe that it’s a gene mutation. Maybe this is a topic for a follow-up conversation, but what I encourage people to understand is that the whole methylation process, which is the underpinning of MTHFR, the methylation process requires between 150 to 200 methyl transferase enzymes. And what is a methyl transferase enzyme doing? It’s turning a gene on or turning a gene off. It’s essentially what it is. It’s like a light switch. It turns it on, it turns it off. And it requires a methyl group to do that.

Well, I’ve only studied ten of these methyl transferase enzymes like COMT or HNMT and there are many, many others. But the ten that I’ve studied, the MT stands for methyl transferase. And in every case, copper is essential in the functioning of that methyl transferase enzyme. The whole creation of MTHFR requires copper.

What I would encourage the listeners or your clients to be aware of is that there’s a lot of psychodrama out there about MTHFR. But the foundation of it is missing minerals. Be very mindful of the fact that copper is missing, zinc is missing, magnesium is missing, B vitamins are missing, there are other essential minerals that might be missing (particularly molybdenum or manganese or chromium or whatever), but don’t suddenly think that you have a gene mutation when in fact you probably have a mineral deficiency, particularly a copper deficiency that’s at the very root of all that methyl transferase activity.

Wendy Myers: Yeah. And I think people think they have a life sentence or something when they’re diagnosed with MTHFR mutation or other kind of snip or gene copying error when in fact, to copy genes, you have to have minerals present and heavy metals and chemicals can interfere in that copying or transfer as well of the gene. So it’s not a life sentence. You can do a program like this and heal those gene mutations, those gene copying errors.

Morley Robbins: Well, part of my research focus for 2015 is going to be looking at the enzymes that put the nucleotide proteins on the DNA. So there are only four – G, A, T, C and there’s an enzyme for each one of them. I’m willing to bet that copper is somewhere in the mix of those nucleotide protein enzymes. That’s just a theory on my part, but I could be completely mistaken, but I have a feeling that there’s a fundamental flaw in how those nucleotide enzymes are working because of missing minerals. That’s going to take some digging on my part.

Wendy Myers: Well, I would love to do a podcast on that too.

Morley Robbins: Yeah!

Wendy Myers: Well, Morley, thank you so much for coming on the show. That was just so interesting. I hope that any of you guys out there who are listening who are current clients of either Morley or I, I hope that clears up a lot of confusion, perhaps it’s created more questions about the copper disregulation issue. We’ll happily welcome your questions. If you have more questions you want answered, we can perhaps do a follow-up show. Is there anything else you’d like to add, Morley?

Morley Robbins: No, I’m feeling pretty good right now.

Wendy Myers: Alright, great!

Morley Robbins: Thank you for the opportunity to share my insights.

53:01 Contact Morley Robbins

Wendy Myers: And so why don’t you tell us a little bit about your upcoming book,The Starved Heart and how magnesium feeds it?

Morley Robbins: Yeah, I got four chapters done, six to go. My goal is by the grace of God, get it done in 2015. It’s basically letting people know that much of the vast majority of what’s behind heart disease is missing minerals, not the least of which is magnesium. It’s very easily lost to stress as we’ve said. The heart is actually a muscle. Muscles love energy. Energy is spelled MgATP and obviously, copper is in there as well, but I’m going to probably put the spotlight on the magnesium. The goal is just to further sharpen people’s awareness of where is all these heart disease coming from? Well, it’s coming from inside their heart muscle that are not being fed properly. That’s really what it comes down to. That’s the focus of the book.

Wendy Myers: Yeah, I’m very much looking forward to that. I love talking to you. I love reading your website. What is your website name again?

Morley Robbins: The Magnesium Advocacy Group.

Wendy Myers: Yeah, what is the exact URL? That’s what I was trying to think of.

Morley Robbins: I think it’s

Wendy Myers: Okay. And what about your website?

Morley Robbins: Oh, the website is

Wendy Myers: Yeah, that’s what it is, GotMag.

Morley Robbins: Yeah,

Wendy Myers: Yes. And I love your Facebook group. Listeners, I absolutely encourage you to join the Magnesium Advocacy Group on Facebook. I can’t say it, I can’t pronounce it. It’s an amazing group. It’s got 20,000 members. I learn in the group. I think there’s a lot of amazing health practitioners in the group. It’s very, very active.

Morley is in that group. You can ask him questions, get involved and learn more about hair mineral analysis and the importance of minerals in your health. So I encourage you to join as well. Morley, thank you so much for being on the show. Is there anything else you want listeners to know about you or where they can find you?

Morley Robbins: They can certainly reach out to me on Facebook. They can reach me, email us, If people want to give me a call, it’s 847-922-8061.

Wendy, I’ve learned that if I give people lots of different ways to reach me, they’re like, “Oh, my God! I don’t know if I want to…” So I love to give out my phone number because most people won’t call me. [Inaudible 00:55:49] and I’ll get flooded with calls.

Wendy Myers: Yeah.

Morley Robbins: I want people to know I’ve never met a question I didn’t enjoy. I will be there to help them. It’s my delight to have this revival. It’s like a renaissance for me. I’m living a life of vitality. I’ve never had so much fun in my life. I’m happy to be able to ease – there’s a lot of suffering out there as you know. I’m happy to be able to help alleviate some of that. So it’s a real honor to do this.

Wendy Myers: Oh, thank you so much, Morley. I really appreciate you being on the show and sharing your vast amount of knowledge and depth of knowledge to the listeners out there. So again, thank you for coming on the show.

Morley Robbins: You bet! Thanks so much for the opportunity.

Wendy Myers: Hey, everybody, thank you so much for listening. If you want to learn all about detoxification, the Modern Paleo diet and all about how to heal your health conditions naturally, go check out my website, You can learn more about my healing and detox program called Mineral Power at Say bye bye, Jezebel. Bye bye. She had a wonderful time on the show today, so thank you for having us. And thank you for listening. If you liked the podcast, please give me a review on iTunes. I’d appreciate that so much. And again, thank you for listening to the Live to 110 Podcast.