Backlash adjustment with C-clamp Message List

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I grew frustated with my inability to precisely vary the pressure on
the worm block for making this adjustment. Last night I put some felt
on both sides of a C-clamp. I put one end on the block furthest from
the motor (which I had removed) and the other on the opposing part of
the mount (not the other block). (Non-initiates see other posts and
Losmandy instructions as well as relevant web sites availble in
archives)

The scope was fully loaded and balanced. I varied its position
horizontally (counterweight at 3 oclock, and then moving it to 9
o'clock) because that seems to be the most "difficult" position.

I ***gradually*** tightened the c-clamp till obvious (visible)

backlash was removed, and then played with rotating the worm gear by
hand. When it was "completely easy" to turn in all positions, there
was the usual 2 arc minute or so of backlash. When I tightened the
c-clamp just a fraction, and I mean turnign the handle about 1.5mm, it
became "too tight" (binding) in nearly all positions.

So, the setting between too tight and too loose was within that 1.5mm
arc (on the c-clamp handle) or pressure. After experimentation I
discovered there was a positin that allowed for easy worm turning in
almost all positions except with the counterweight between 3 and 5
o'clock as you look at the mount. The other side 7-9 o'clock was OK,
and it has been posted on this group that the cure for this asymmetry
is the 3rd bearign solution. (which I intend to implement)

Meantime I had established that I could be "loose all around" and have
backlash or be too tight on one part of side. There was no in-between.
So I experimented with the too tight. Too tight means I could turn
the worm with my fingers, rasiing the counterweight against gravity,
but not easily.

I hooked up the stepper motor and experimented with it in this "tight"

position. The stepper was able to "work through" this tight area both
at 16x and also showed the usual amount of movement in trackng mode.
(In tracking mode, movement and worm and stepper axis is visible)

I decided I would stick with this "slightly too tight adjustment"

which gives zero backlash since it seemed that the stepper motor could
handle it.

The performance of the mount during lunar observing was good, and when
I played with stars and such it was much easier to point because there
was no backlash. So I think this is the optimal position (until the
3rd bearings arrive, when I will revaluate everything).

COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS.

1. The "just right" and "wrong" positions are, in terms of pressure,

only a millimeter or so apart (on the C-clamp handle) when using a
C-clamp to apply the pressure. So this is a VERY FINE adjustment.

2. Having established that the fully loaded mount can "work through"
its tight spot, am a at grave risk of a problem?

3. This is my third time into the worm gear to learn how to make this
adjustment. Though Losmandy company documentation seems to make it a
trivial matter, it is in fact a difficult adjustment to make.
Reducign six arc minutes of slop to 2 minutes of slop is not hard.
Reducign 2 minutes of slop to zero or close to it, without causing
binding, is hard.

4. There is no my G11 NO discernible pressure point at which there is

BOTH zero backlash AND easy worm gear movement in all possible
positions.

Strange Dec backlash problem. Message List

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Re: Strange Dec backlash problem.

The object in using a c-clamp, just for clarification, is

not to make the adjustment super tight, but to get precision
in the degree of tightness. Small increments of increased
tightness are possibly by making small turns on the c-clamp.
And they should be small turns, or you'll screw things up!

The other advantage of the c-clamp is that once you have the
tightness you wnat you can let go, so you don't have to
push, squeeze and tighten the bolt all while trying to remain
a constant pressure.

-greg nowell

C-11 and G-11 Used purchase PROBLEMS$$$? Message List

Reply | Forward | Delete Message #11042 of 36224 < Prev | Next >
Re: C-11 and G-11 Used purchase PROBLEMS$$$?
==>Remember that if the scope is pointed anywhere N of, say,
Cassiopeia the performance of the RA drive is going to be limited to
zero (zero at true N), at speeds of 16x. It will track, though. So
the hand control's RA performance is inherently "variable" depending
on the part of the sky you're in. You may not know this if you
haven't been around GEMs with hand controls long. If you have a lot
of slop in your worm gear, which it seems that you do, your hand
controller will "spin" and not do anything while the worm gear is
taking out the slop. Hence the need to adjust.

==>Ms Kreidel mentioned the retaining ring which sits just above the
primary mirror as a possible source of your lack of collimation.
This is absolutely true, but you don't start with that. You start by
doing a conventional collimation of the scope as is pretty routinely
needed after shipping. 75% chance it's just your collimatin screws,
25% chance you'll need to tighetn that ring. Don't do it till you've
gone on sct user and gotten instructions.

==>You haven't said whether you're trying to test the RA with the ota
on or off. When I first got mine I measured everything without the
ota on. I pushed on the head in Dec and saw it was hard to move when
the clutch was tight. i pushed on the counterweight shaft in RA with
no counterweights and no ota and found it ridiculously easy to move.

I thought there was a cluthc problem. It took several days to hve

the brainstorm to measure the distance from the point of rotation on
the dec to where I as putting my finger to push (and test dec clutch)
and realize that I was about 4 or 5x further out when "testing" the
resistance in RA clutch. What I was doing had nothing to do with
clutch performance. I had rediscovered Archimedes' principle of
leverage. After measuring down from the polar scope hole the same
distance that I was pushing on the Dec (from the axis of rotation to
the tip of the saddle, a few inches) I discovered that my RA clutch
was holding just fine.

In English: if you're touching the counterweigh shaft, or even the

part of the mount just above it, as a "test" of how the RA
clutch "holds", then you are doing wrong, and are in a state of not-
knowingness. Grab the counterweight shaft and even against a tight
clutch the mount will turn as easily as a broomstick in water.

Thus the crucialness of balance in RA. Even with a fully loaded

mount grabbing by countershaft and pushing will overcome clutch
friction very easily.
==>You evidently do need to learn how to tighten the worm gear. My
particular technique uses a felt lined C-clamp GENTLY tightened to
hold the blocks together while you tighten down the the boxes that
hold the worm. VERY SLIGHT differences in pressure make a big
difference. There is stuff on this in the archives. You have to
remove the drive motor to make the adjustment.

regards,
Greg Nowell

ps. in a sense your mount might be in mint condition, since mint

from the factory often means that you have to adjust everything.
shouldn't be that way, but often is. -gn.

M-8 worm adjustment question. Different than G-11??? Message List

Reply | Forward | Delete Message #15834 of 36224 < Prev | Next >
Both directions worked!

I started over. Thr first block pushed was up and into the worm. By
pushing diagonally, I was able to put pressure in both directions, so
much so as to almost lift the mount off the floor. I did the same
with the far block, up and in together, with all the force I could
muster with one hand. Now it does work and respond well.

The key was doing it in BOTH directions at the same time.

Thanks for the idea.

anolly --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "gnowellsct"

<tim71pos@h...> wrote:
> Since the worm forms a chord across the circular drive gear, you
> really don't need to fuss over both blocks. One is enough, and if I
> recall is standard in the Losmandy instructions.
>
> "As tight as you can by hand" is not really very tight in my
> opinion. Neither I nor a friend had success in this adjustment
> tightening by hand (some do). The C-clamp made the adjustment
> precise and accurate. You can't vary say between 45 and 50 lbs of
> pressure by hand, you can't judge it. But you can with a c-clamp
> (though you won't know total pressures, but you can measure the
> changes in backlash, just clamp down easy as your ability to exert
> pressure is essentially unlimited with a c-clamp).
>
>
> regards Greg Nowell
>
> --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "badger_al" <abarak@c...>
> wrote:
> > Jeff first tightened the motor-side block to make sure it is as
> tight
> > as possible. I would guess it acts as a "fulcrum" of sorts.
Then
>I
> > went on to the the far block, as per usual.
>>
> > The very loose play is in the roatation of the worm, not the
> circular
> > gear. I think then, in changing directions of RA movement, the
> motors
> > would have to move the worm 1/8 turn before moving the OTA.
>>
> > How much RA movement is caused by 1/8 rotation (about 45 deg
> turn)
> > of worm?
>>
> > In any case, I expected some binding if I tightened both as tight
> as
> > I could by hand.
>>
> > Would a new work cure this, or is it normal play?

Re: GM-8 worm adjustment question. Different than G-11???

To my knowledge I'm the first person to use a C-clamp in this

procedure, many people have success by hand. I've never heard of
doing the adjustment on both blocks. You loosen one and do one.
The other stays fixed.

You say a 1/8 backlash but you don't say 1/8 of what. This is where
degrees of arc makes a difference in conveying your idea. If you
know the fov of an eyepiece you can estimate the fraction of
backlash using that eyepiece. A high power eyepiece will be more
accurate. Backlash can be estimated during the day using a fixed
object like a doorbell.

Since the drive gear (not the worm gear) is not perfectly round the
objective is to get the backlash to an acceptable level and yet have
the tension on the blocks not cause binding on the worst part of the
gear. A simple test is if you can drive the gear with your fingers
holding it from the nylon oldham coupler. If you can, it's OK.
Many parts of the gear will be easy some will be hard.

If you use a C-clamp put some felt on the parts that touch the
mount, the adjustable end on a bearing block, the other end NOT on
the worm but on the edge of the mount. Tighten slowly, after a
certain point 1/8 turns and even less cause rapid increases in
pressure. You can test the backlash with the c-clamp in place by
rocking the mount back and forth, or by looking through the eyepiece
and seeing how much the tube drops from where you let go of it.

(I do the test fully rigged with counterweight and ota).

I settled on 2 arc minute backlash--at 710x this is still well in

the field of view but it is unnoticeable in the finder and low power
eyepieces, and it is no longer something I think about.

regards
Greg Nowell

There are "tight" and "loose" spots in the worm gear which is the
serrated gear that goes all the way around the mount. The worm
interfaces with it.

The blocks as mentioned are crucial to adjusting tightness. The

problem is that "just right" in one position may be "too tight" in
another.

I measure the problem in arc minutes using an eyepiece. You take the
motor off and the block covers off and you start turning the oldham
coupler. (plastic thingy that connects the worm and the motor) As
you go around the mount (with counterweight shaft, weights, and a
tube on to get the feel of the thing) you will see that some spots
are right and others "loose" or "free".

Go to a loose spot and adjust the worm by loosening the worm blocks
and pushing in (toward the mount, and squeezing together as you do)
to get an acceptable level of play. I decided 1-2 arc minutes would
be OK. Then go to a tight spot and make sure you can get through
it. If you can get through it turning the oldham coupler with your
fingers the motors will not have a problem.

To fine tune the pressure on the blocks I used a c-clamp to squeeze

the blocks together. I glued felt to the parts of the c clamp that
contacted the blocks to keep it cosmetically nice. BE VERY CAREFUL,
turn that C clamp in small increments as it can put on a lot of
pressure. By using the c-clamp you can be sure that pressure is
being kept on while you tighten the blocks down from underneath.

If you adjust your "loose spot" to have a minimal acceptable play,

your "tight spot" won't have any play at all.

regards
Greg N

--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Sandage" <daves@e...>

wrote:
>
> Check to make sure that the worm bearing blocks are snug against the
> ends of the worm. The kind of movement you are describing can come
> from the worm being shifted back and forth until it hits the bearing
> blocks. When you loosen the bearing block to adjust the worm mesh,
> apply some squeezing pressure on the two blocks toward each other,
> while simultaneously adjusting the worm to gear mesh, then tighten
> everything up.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Dave S.
>
> --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "bkm208" <bkm208@y...> wrote:
>>
> > I have an older G-11. Recently, it became a little loose on the RA
> > axis. Even with the clutches fully tightened, it moves freely
back and
> > forth about 1mm-2mm before hitting a hard stop on either side. As
if
> > there is a gap between the teeth of th worm drive and RA gears.
>>
> > I took the whole thing apart, cleaned and lubed. I didn't find any
> > obvious damage or wear to any of the parts. I didn't observe any
> > looseness in the gears. In fact, I had a very difficult time
getting
> > the worm drive gear not to bind (that's a whole different story).
But
> > after everything was back together again, the RA axis had the same
> > loose movement as before.
>>
> > Any help or suggestions? Should I order a new worm drive gear?

Re: Help with G-11 Gemini mount--What 's "Normal"-- SUCCESS!

Thanks again Paul, and everyone for your suggestions. I just got
through greasing it and ran the worm wheel through a full 360
degrees of movement at slow speed to distribute the grease. I
noticed before greasing that occasionally I would get a quick spike
up to 1.5-2.0 amps (at 14V DC) during sidereal tracking, that would
go right back down. Maybe a sign of some continued binding going
on still?? After greasing, I don't see this anymore, so I guess it
really WAS in need of some grease. The Slick 50 went on very easily
and appears to have helped some more. I think it's a wrap on this
now. Can't wait to try it out under the stars "live".

Thanks!
Wade

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "Paul K" <pkane2001@h...>
wrote:
>
> Excellent, Wade! I'm glad that it was just a mesh issue and
nothing
> more serious. I have a 1.5A fuse in my power supply, and it had
blown
> only twice, both times as the motor began heating up due to an
> obstruction in the path of the mount. Otherwise, I've operated
with a
> 1.5A fuse for nearly three years and it had survived, indicating
that
> Gemini draws a continuous 1.5A (at 16v) or more only when it's
> severely overloaded.
>
> The backlash shouldn't be a big deal. Weighing the mount heavier
to
> the East will completely eliminate this as a problem for any long
> exposures and for guiding.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Paul
>
> --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "uwpf23" <uwpf23@y...>
wrote:
>>
> > P.S...one final footnote. Before adjusting out the servo side of
> > the worm block from 0.024 inch to 0.030, and re-greasing the worm
> > wheel, the RA motor was pulling a CONTINUOUS 2.0 amps at 14V DC
> > while just sidereal tracking. No wonder the motor was heating up
and
> > frying!! Now, after the work was done, the motor only pulls 0.2
> > amps during sidereal tracking. Quite a difference, and I take
this
> > as proof positive that the gears were binding. The interesting
> thing
> > is, I always thought that motor stalling was a primary symptom of
> > gear binding, but I had none of this, except at the hightest
speeds,
> > over 800. Maybe this WAS the symptom, and I just did not
realize
> it,
> > due to my inexperience with this mount!! I guess running with
the
> > 18V Lacey converter, or even my new Pyramid variable voltage p.s.
> > set to 14V at 5 amp max, was simply powering the motor through
the
> > binding, but the resistance was still heating up the motor to the
> > point of frying it, even with NO stalls. Live and learn, I
guess!!
>>
> > Thanks,
> > Wade
>>
>
> ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
> > --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "uwpf23" <uwpf23@y...>
wrote:
>>>
> > > Hi Paul,
> > > That's interesting about the grease, because I think that is
> > > exactly what has happened....what little grease is there has
been
> > > pushed out to the teeth edges by the tight clearance. I
adjusted
> > > the servo side and left the other side alone. Now both gaps
are
> > > 0.030 inches, and the motor is no longer heating up at all,
even
> on
> > > 180 degree slews. I suppose I will have to determine if I now
have
> > > too much backlash in there, but as long as I keep the RA axis
> > > slightly east-heavy, hopefully this will do the trick with
> > > autoguiding if there is more backlash in there now.
>>>
> > > Thanks everybody for your help with fixing this. Now I can at
> > least
> > > tell a little more about what is going on in there, if I ever
> have
> > to
> > > adjust it again later on.
>>>
> > > Thanks!
> > > Wade
>>>
>>
> //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>>>
> > > --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "Paul K"
<pkane2001@h...>
> > > wrote:
>>>>
> > > > Hi Wade,
>>>>
> > > > It's very likely that there's enough grease there, but the
> > > worm/gear
> > > > mesh being too tight squeezes the grease out. I've seen it
when
> > > the
> > > > worm appears to have no grease on it on it when the mesh is
too
> > > > tight. Once you loosen it up a bit, run the gear all the way
> > > around
> > > > to redistribute the grease again, and that should do it.
>>>>
> > > > Loosening up of one of the worm posts and running the mount
all
> > > the
> > > > way around is a good idea, and has been documented here in
the
> > > past
> > > > as the "Mludek method" after the gentleman who originally
> > proposed
> > > > it. It works well, but be careful not to loosen it too much,
> but
> > > > enough to let the post be pushed out.
>>>>
> > > > Since the motor block is closer to the gear, loosen that one
up
>>a
> > > bit
> > > > and run the motor to rotate the gear full 360 degrees. The
only
> > > > concern is to keep the blocks pressed towards each other to
> stop
> > > the
> > > > worm from floating between them: this is usually done with a
C-
> > > clamp
> > > > or a similar device. Check the motor while you're doing it,
> > > > especially if it sounds like it's working hard: you don't
want
> > it
> > > to
> > > > overheat.
>>>>
> > > > Regards,
>>>>
> > > > -Paul
>>>>
> > > > --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "uwpf23"
<uwpf23@y...>
> > > wrote:
>>>>>
> > > > > Hi Paul,
> > > > > I got a very bright little LED light and put it right down
by
> > the
> > > > > gears, and there does appear to be a grayish residue in
very
> > > > > scarce quantities, in places along the worm wheel, but
some
> > areas
> > > > > appear to have none. Very, very spotty amount of grease.
And
> > WAY
> > > > > less than what is on the DEC gears. On those, you can
easily
> > see
> > > > > the residue with just a flashlight. So, I guess they ran
out
> > of
> > > > > grease on mine!! Since there is still some slight amount
of
> > > grease
> > > > > present, I am going to assume it still needs the worm block
> > > > > adjustment, so I'll tackle the gapping of the block in a
few
> > > minutes
> > > > > and see how it turns out. I'm going to back off the servo
> > side
> > > > > .006 inches, to where it is the same as the far side, then
re-
> > > turn
> > > > > the gears and see if I still feel the binding. I hope
this
> is
> > > not
> > > > > too far, but it seems logical as a first step, so that
both
> > > sides
> > > > are
> > > > > equidistant. This assumes there is no milling defect on
the
> > > blocks
> > > > > themselves though, where I'm measuring the clearances with
> the
> > > > feeler
> > > > > gauge, so I may be doing a whole bunch of trial and error
on
> > > this if
> > > > > they were not milled perfectly.
>>>>>
> > > > > What about just tightening the block bolts SLIGHTLY and
just
> > > turning
> > > > > the gears until they push out the worm shaft to a point
where
> > > there
> > > > > is no longer any binding. Can they gap themselves
properly
> > this
> > > > way,
> > > > > without me trying to just guess with feeler gauges?
>>>>>
> > > > > Thanks for the info about the Slick 50....I'll go get a
tube
> > of
> > > it
> > > > > and put a very small amount in there, re-turn the worm
wheel
> to
> > > > > distribute, and see what I've got after that.
>>>>>
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Wade
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////