G: I didn’t know I was Jewish, and it probably was a good thing until after the war.

Starting

around 4 years old, I was moved from one Polish Catholic family to another by my mom. This is

after we escaped the ghetto, so I didn’t know I was Jewish. So the kids were always Polish

Catholic so when the kids were praying, I would say why do you pray? And I had never seen that

before. And they would say because we were told too. I mean at the age of 4 or 5, the kids do

what they’re told. So I was told to pray too. So I said okay, well. And then they’d say if we pray

well, you know, we’ll get some sweets or something. And I said okay, I’ll pray with you.

And after the war, probably the first summer after the war, so the summer of 45, so I was in

second. Apparently I had had an argument with somebody in the courtyard. One of the kids I had

forgotten about expect my mom reminded me. I’ve always been liberal, even at the age of seven.

And apparently someone went on the other kids in the courtyard, called somebody a dirty Jew.

And I said, well there are good Jews, they are bad Jews. And there are good Poles and said, you

and I are good Poles. But, there are some bad Poles too. Well he didn’t agree and we started

arguing and we got into a fist fight. And we both got bloody. And my mom either saw it or she

heard it from one of the neighbors. So, that’s the time she told me I was Jewish. I started crying,

I didn’t want to be Jewish.

I: This was 1945?

G: 1945. Right after the war. After I was already reunited with my mom. We lived together in

Warsaw. I didn’t want to be Jewish because then, I knew what happened, I knew what Jews

suffered during the war. And I didn’t want that burden. I was willing to fight for them, but I

didn’t want to be one. So I started crying. I got over it. I got over it.2:30

I: Despite growing up, maturing.

G: Well, I guess I’ve learned. The reason my book is called Neither Yesterdays nor Tomorrows

is because I instinctively learned -- to forget the bad things in the past. I mean this goes on till

now. If something bad happens, then a year later I don’t remember it. I remember the good

things. I mean for example, I’ve had a number of crashes in a hang glider. I remember everything

of all those crashes including when I hit the hill, but the one time I got really hurt I was

unconscious for 6 hours. From the moment that I knew that we were going to hit the hill, so the

moment I hit it was many several seconds. I remember one of my last thoughts was I need to hug

the hill. I had already flown for 2 hours, which was kind of my rule of flight. I’d fly for two

hours then land. And I was flying for two hours. By that time I was a good pilot. I was flying for

a couple of hours and I think I was starting to hug the hill. The wind is coming down, I better

land. That’s the last thing I remember. The next thing was I woke up in the hospital, 6 hours

later. So I had to reconcious during those hours, 2-3 seconds heading to the hill. I don’t

remember anything. I think the organism has an amazing way of protecting, at least me from,

harboring memories. And because of that I think I probably quickly suppressed that one as I

suppressed many of the old bad memories. That’s why it's Neither Yesterdays.

I: Do you have any actually visual memories in your mind of then even being in the ghetto, or

before of even going into the ghetto?

G: Well, I mean, I was born in the ghetto. We weren’t moved to the ghetto.

I: That was the area that you lived, so they didn’t have to move you in.

G: And the street that you were on was no longer there. Again, I only learned about the street,

not that long ago. I was writing the book a lot of the stuff I learned, a lot of memories came back

to me because I was writing the book. And a lot of questions that I should have asked my mom, I

never did. Again-

I: When did your mother pass away?

G: She passed away 13 years ago. I wrote the book about 7 years ago.

I: So you had started telling your story when she was still alive?

G: No, no, she had died 13 years ago. And I wrote my book 7 years ago. And again, when I

wrote the book I thought I’d finished. That was it. That was traumatic. Leading up to that, it was

a bit traumatic. And then I wrote the book and I thought I’m finished.

I: ‘Cause you had no one to ask the questions of. You had no family members that you could ask

any questions.

G: Right, right. Yeah. But, again I think well why --did-- the questions came up as I was writing

the book. And I thought well why didn’t I ask my mom. And the reason is, I kept it all at

emotional distance. I saw what the Holocaust did to her, I mean she couldn’t stop reliving it. And

you know if I would say to her, say something. Something would come up. She would see all the

movies. She would read all the books that came out. And sometimes some things would come up

and she would start telling me something and I’d say mom, you already told me that several

times. (6:11) Her answer was: well, one more time won’t hurt. She needed to.

I: She wanted you to remember too.

G: No, I don’t think so. She just needed to. She needed to relive it on her part. I don’t understand

that. I instinctively forgot. Not just that, but a lot of other stuff. Nothing to do with the

Holocaust, I forgot. But, uh, she needed to relive it. So, Mimi says I probably couldn’t have

written my book if she was still alive. And maybe that’s why I didn’t ask her the questions

‘cause there would be this avalanche of answers.

I: More than you would have ever wanted to know.

G: Well, or I already knew, several times. But, anyway. So yes, I came to. Whether I forgot it.

You know after the war and the following there was no religion. --- ---. Catholicism was

suppressed. Not very strongly. It was suppressed. There wasn’t open religious parades or

anything. On Easter. Certainly, there was no Jewish religion, there was no controversy. Even

after I learned that I was born Jewish, I had no religious training, and I still don’t. I’m asked this

question a lot, you know, how do I feel about. And I tell them, I was raised as a Catholic until I

was seven and then I learned I was Jewish. And then after that, there were no, we had no contact

with the small towns. After the war there was no religion in Poland. After we came here we were

living in small towns where there was no Jews. So, I had no need for religion. So I told the kids,

the religion I have is the Golden Rule. Half jokingly, I say, you know, I follow through with that

religiously. And I do. So that’s my religion. And, um, Judaism is another religion for me. But,

uh, it’s a matter of just time, maybe, sort of initially I forgot that this thing because it wasn’t

pleasant. I didn’t want to be Jewish, so I kind of forgot about it.

I: Did you at the little bit you continued to live in Poland, did you go from Poland to Paris, or

was there someplace in between.

G: I went from Poland to Paris.

I: So the time that you were in Poland, were there other kids like you, who had similar

experiences to you being hidden? Did you have any other friends like that? Did you have

anybody to talk to about it?

G: Well, I had friends, which, now I know that were Jewish.

I: But at the time you didn’t.

G: At that time. You know, it didn’t matter to me. I didn’t consider it. I knew I was born Jewish,

but I don’t remember thinking ‘I am Jewish’. I don’t remember that thought. I don’t remember

ever thinking, gee, I wonder whether they’re Jewish.

I: It just wasn’t something that was on the radar.

G: It wasn’t part of my psyche.

I: Did you wonder when you were 4 years old and living in the horrific conditions within the

ghetto, did you wonder why it was so awful? Or is that all you knew?

G: That’s all that I knew. When you are born in that certain situation, that’s normal. It becomes

so.

I: That was your normal.

G: So I just accepted it. I mean, one time when my mom was moving me from one place to

another because of danger. I threw a fit. It was late at night, etc. I was at that time 4 years old and

we were saved again. I said in my book that we were saved by an old beggar. Apparently, the

people with whom I was lived alerted my mom that somebody suspects I’m Jewish and they

were going to blackmail her with them, or whatever. So my mom picked me up that night, took

me out. So this was past curfew. And I threw a fit. I guess because I didn’t want to be moved to

another place. I mean, most of the people. Some of the people treated me well, some of the

people didn’t treat me very well and they saved me, so I’m grateful for that. But, some of them

did treat me well and I didn’t want to move to one more unknown family.

I: Right. You were a little kid.

G: So I threw a fit. And I remember thrashing in the snow, it was winter, and crying. And this

beggar came up. It was a beggar. He had on his shoulder a burlap bag. And the way you scare

kids in Poland, then at least, was, you know, a beggar was going to come along and put you in
his burlap bag and carry you away. So I was laying on the ground thrashing and he bent down

over me and said, little boy do what your mother says, or I’m going to put you into my bag and

carry you away. I shut up, I shut up, and I was silent until we went to where we were.

I: ‘Cause you weren’t always with your mom. She was somewhere else.

G: Once we were out of the ghetto I was never with my mom.

I: And how did she physically get you out of the ghetto.

G: I don’t know. I know she smuggled herself and me out of the ghetto. She tells me that I was

hidden in a bag, in a knapsack. I mean, I was pretty small. I was undernourished, I was 4 years

old, I was undernourished. But she said it was a knapsack. I am not quite sure what she meant,

you know. I’m sure she didn’t carry the knapsack. But, she said I was smuggled out in a sack or

knapsack. I don’t know how she was smuggled. We were smuggled out together. That was

apparently early enough so that they weren’t watching things quite as well as after, shortly

thereafter. So there was still time to do that.

I: And did you get very far out of Warsaw ever? Or where you hidden in places in Warsaw?

G: The only time, during the Warsaw Uprising.

I: The Warsaw Uprising, not the Ghetto Uprising.

G: We left the ghetto before the Ghetto Uprising. Otherwise we wouldn’t be here. And then the

Warsaw Uprising, August ‘44.

I: The Warsaw Uprising was, I’m sure, plenty of Jews involved in it who were.

G: No, because there weren’t many Jews left.

I: Not the ones that were partisans. Were they involved? Maybe the movies aren’t all correct.

G: There weren’t very many.

I: It wasn’t a Jewish uprising, is what I’m trying to say. It was the Poles rising up against the

Nazis.

G: It was the Polish underground. And they were loyal to and supported by the Polish

government that had been exiled in London. So, that a weapons that were --documented-- by the

Royal Air Force. Some machine guns, some mortars, so there was equipment. There was about

20 thousand of them. And during the Warsaw, and again, we left Warsaw, the family, the day

after the uprising started. We were lucky. And again, that’s part of my book too. The Moscow

Radio tried to, actually encouraged, the Warsaw fighters to start the uprising. And the reason

was, the fighters, there were two Underground army, I forgot the word. I can’t speak Polish

though. I think I forgot it because it connected to bad memories. I forgot French because I

learned Russian. The very first time on my way to Moscow, I was in a cab. When I was France I

could speak French, not fluently, but it was street French. When I got lost I could always. When I

was in France for, what, close to a year and I was without my mom for 3 months I think. I was

living with this old French couple. But whenever I got lost I could ask somebody how to get

home. And I would wander all around the city. And one time in Moscow, one of the things I

learned. I have been to Moscow about 200 times. And one time I was sitting in a cab and I

learned how to talk to the cab drivers. They knew what was happening politically and they would

ask me questions like when the Afghanistan war was going on. I remember one taxi driver, you

know said, well we are not told what’s going on there. You’re American, you know how many

troops do we have there? How many had been killed? You know, they were asking me. And I

would ask them questions, you know, what’s going on, what do you hear as far as political. And

one time there was this song on the radio and I was talking to the driver, what language is that,

it's sure ugly. And he said it’s Polish. I did forget it.
G: Everytime we moved, even in America. I was going to highschool. I know who these kids are.

I spent a year and a half in North Carolina. I learned English. I know these kids already. I didn’t

like the kids, I didn’t like the town. I needed comfort.

G: It’s amazing how in a short period of time in a country. Even if you speak the language, you

start thinking in that language. I’ll give you a short example. I was commuting back and forth

from Moscow. And I stopped. And for some reason I was not coming directly back to California

to stop and visit my best friend in Boston. He and I went to MIT together. So, I had this jet lag

and several flights and I was zonked out. And he had to wake me up for some reason. I had spent

not two weeks in Moscow then, I spent two months. I went for two weeks, but a possibly

contract was dragging and dragging and dragging me and Russians were saying stay here and

they will go with you to London and sign it and that didn’t happen. When I was in Moscow I

tried to speak all in Russian. So, you know, after speaking for two months in a row in Russian, I

had jet lag and my friend wakes me up and is telling me something. And I think, Bill doesn’t

know Russian, why is he talking Russian to me. And I kept answering in what I thought was

English and he kept talking to me in what I thought was Russian. And finally I decided, I was too

sleepy, too tired, I’ll switch languages. I would answer him in Russian. Turns out, I finally

answered him in English. (19:14)

I: What about the movie Paper Clips moved you to share your own story?

G: I’ve stayed away from the Holocaust emotionally because of my mom. I didn’t want to get to

be like her. And therefore anything to do with the Holocaust, like movies I didn’t want to see.

‘Cause my mom kept doing this over and over again. And my mom died 13 years ago, then 7

years ago we heard about Paper Clips. Okay, I’ll give you a thumbnail sketch. So, I stayed away

from the Holocaust. (22:28) And then Mimi asked me in like October or November of 2009 if it
was okay to rent a movie called Paper Clips. And she said, you know, and I said well because I

had asked her. And she said because it has to do with the Holocaust. Well, she knew that I didn’t

want to see Holocaust saints, I didn’t want to see concentration camps. And I said, well I don’t

need that. And she said, no no no, it takes place in the year 2000 in Tennesse. It’s a very small,

very narrow town. Everybody there is what’s called WASP. White Anglo Saxon Protestant. No

blacks or hispanics, no jews no asians, etc. And the teacher knew that America is much more

diverse. So, she wanted to give the 8th graders something that has to do with diversity and she

choose the Holocaust. And there’s a reason it’s called Paper Clips, and I guess when you see it

you’ll know why it’s called Paper Clips because that’s a very good part of the ending. But a

couple of New York Times reporters heard about the project and they kind of traveled there to

interview people. And they asked for some Holocaust survivors to go down to the town from

New York to talk to the students and that’s part of the movie. So the movie is a documentary.

They brought in this documentary film company and they introduced it to them. And so Mimi

told me about this movie and I said well who knows it takes place in the year 2000 in Tennessee.

So Mimi asks me if she should rent it out and she described it to me and I said, well sure, no

problem. So none of it bothered me. When the Holocaust survivors were telling their stories that

didn’t bother me because I knew them, well I lived through part of that. But, this was the first

time that the teachers and the students learned anything directly first hand. And that makes the

difference. And the letters afterwards ---

We got at least 10 thousand letters after my talks from students.

We’re watching the movie and when the Holocaust survivors are talking, that didn’t bother me.

But, when the camera showed the students, you know, some of them were crying and some of

the teachers were sobbing. And I just looked at it and I thought, well wow, my story has value.
Because for years, well Mimi would ask me. We’ve been married for 45 years. And she’s been

asking me many times, write your stories. And my friends would ask me, and always, no. I kept

it at emotional distance. Well, when I saw that scene of the kids crying in Paper Clips and the

teachers crying, I thought well wow my story has value. When the movie ended, Mimi asked me

for probably the 30th time, would you write. I said I’ll do it. I started the next day.

I: How did you know where to begin?

G: I began by, well you know, I sat down in the chair at the desk and I thought, what are my

memories. I just made a, I tried to go through my mind of key words of my memories and each

of these became a chapter. And then when I was writing it, other memories came back to me, so I

kind of filled that in. Parts of the chapters were added or made new chapters. The book is thin,

under 100 pages, so I filled it in as memories kept coming to me. And I thought I was finished.

After I wrote it, actually. It’s funny writing wasn’t very difficult because I was so focused,

saying like that doesn’t bother me I’m really focused on what I had to do. But the funny thing,

the first time I had to read it to proofread it, to edit it. Oh, that hurt. Because reading is wapasic. I

could reflect on what I was reading. While I was writing, I just do it. And that, that was difficult.

And that time, I thought, well okay I finished. I put it, I immediately put it ono this free access

website. I didn’t want to sell it, I wanted people to read it. I put it on this free-access website so

people can read it on the computer for free. They can print it on the printer for free. One of the

kids, a Chinese kid from China, at this global summit that I speak at every year in Tacoma every

September got so excited that he translated it into Chinese. So it is in Chinese. And also the

forum translated it into Polish this past spring. When I was there last summer, they got it, I didn’t

have to ship it from here. It all started with Paper Clips. If wasn’t for Paper Clips I would have

maybe eventually had an epiphany.

(Treblinka) The first school I spoke in Poland at, because they got to this event in Seattle, they

are at a place called Svinic near Midanic, like 5 kilometers from Treblinka. They wanted to take

me there, I said no, no. Talking is bad enough. That’s why I thought after I wrote my book, I’m

done with it and then this friend of mine in Boston, he told the head of MIT Hillel she should

contact me. I had met her once before.

I: Hillel is the university’s Jewish Organization. Is that the best way to describe what Hillel is?

G: When I was at the university I didn’t know it existed. I didn’t get they were Jewish. The

interesting is this: I joined a fraternity when I went to MIT because I liked the guys. I went to

about 4, 5, 6 fraternities like we all did, all the freshmen. I liked at this, I wanted to join it. But

about a month later, I learned it was a Jewish fraternity. I wasn’t very Jewish, I wasn’t very

perceptive.

After this woman, she’s a rabbi, the head of MIT Hillel. She got a masters of chemical

engineering at MIT. Very dynamic and she was a chaplain in the US Navy as well. Very

dynamic women, she probably about 40 now. She learned from my friend Billy in Boston that

I’m doing this. I’m writing a book. Then she asked if I would like her as an objective person to

proofread a draft and I said sure. I send it to her and she made on very good suggestion in the

very last chapter. Turned it around. I was glad for that. Then she said, this was like late March of

2010, and she said that she was organizing. Or April 10th would be the Holocaust remembrance

day, that year. And she said she was organizing an event at MIT for students at the Holocaust

Memorial in downtown Boston and I could come speak at it. And my answer was hell no. I was

afraid. I didn’t want to to talk about it. That wasn’t my plan. I wrote it, I’m done with it.

However, I’m on a number of MIT committees, so it turns out that weekend, 2 days before, I had

to go to some committee meetings in Boston. So, I already had tickets. So, the only reason I was
saying no. Wasn’t a question whether I couldn't go through the trouble of flying there. I was

going to be there. So, I was afraid. So, after saying hell no I thought okay you know, I don’t like

the idea of being afraid, so I say I’m going to practice, I’m going to work on it. I’m going to

really get it so I don’t choke. And I contacted Michelle, Michelle Fisher, she was the rabbi and I

said, I changed my mind, I’ll do it, I’ll come. I’ll be in Boston. So anyway, I’ll come. I let some

of my friends at MIT, for example some of the staff, for example the head of physics, the dean of

science, they were my friends by now. So I said, you know, they came. And everything seemed

fine except I was going to be the final speaker. And the man before me got up and he read

something called the last letter of Mordecai (33:48) and it was very poignant and I choke a little

when I talk about it now. And he read that. And Michelle said, okay George, it’s your turn. I just

choked, I couldn’t speak. So I swallowed and swallowed and I went up there. I probably choked

a half a dozen times, just speechless half a dozen times.

I: Did they know it was your first time speaking, did the audience know time you had told your

story?

G: Probably not. This was -- at the Holocaust Memorial in downtown Boston. They probably had

70, 80 people plus anybody who walked by. And I finished, and I was just worn out. It was kind

of like having run a marathon. But enough people walked up to me and said, you gotta keep

doing this. My friend Billy said you were about --- history. And they put me together with them

and I have been speaking ever since.

I: Do you still get the emotional thing at the same points in your talk?

G: The only one that reckons the same is when I try to talk about this letter that was hidden at the

ghetto and found later. Mordecai Anielewicz was the head of the uprising in Warsaw in the

ghetto. He wrote a letter and I still choke when I talk about it. The other things, they come in at
different times. I can never predict when. I have spoken enough times, probably now I will only

choke only once or twice at different times. Or at times I’ve choked before, but now not. It isn’t

regular.

I: How did you meet Magda in Seattle? She’s a survivor, Magda Shalum. I can’t make it through

one of her talks without getting emotional.

….

G: It gets easier over time. But as you know, there are different points at different times. I feel a

lump in my throat.

I: You changed within several families and you didn’t know why, so how did you feel about

that?

G: No, I didn’t know why. And I accepted it. The first time or the second time I threw that fit.

But again, changing from one family to another kind of became okay, you know, it happened

before. It’s happening again. It seemed, I guess it became normal. It became normal. It’s only

after the war that I know why. And there are some facts I only learned recently, like I’m always

asked, or very often asked a question, how did my mom know where to take me. She’d pick me

up that night, how did she know. And my answer was, I don’t know. It’s one of the questions

that occured to me that I should have asked and I never did. And Jack Weinstein is the, was the

head of --- history here. He’s now just a senior advisor, he retired a year ago. He would always

come with me, and he still does, to the talks he’s arranging. And he’s heard this question many

times and he’s heard me say I don’t know. But again, for whatever reason, I never wanted to go

back into to it. I didn’t want to do the research. But he did and he said well, there’s an

organization. The next time the question came up and I said I don’t know and he said “I do”.

And this was like years after he and I had already, taking me to meetings. And he told me that he
did some research and there was this underground organization that was, kept track of Jewish

kids that said we were being moved from one Polish family to another. So that after the war, the

parents would know where to find them. Zegota. (39:00) You know that word bothers me. A lot

of this stuff, you know in Poland they didn’t teach any of this stuff because the Polish communist

government. Everything was fine. Everything that’s Russia is great. Even though it’s falling

apart like the trolley bus that is falling apart on the street, but they got strong engines. The body

was, the pieces were falling off. I remember that as a kid. The engines are strong. Whereas the

trolley buses were in French that were in Warsaw right after the war, Poland got them somehow.

Beautiful, shiny. Yeah, but they had weak engines. Russians would down anything that was not

Russia and up anything that’s Russia. And, you know, we believed that as kids. You know, I was

7, 8, 9 years old. Sure I believe it.

I:So your mom, she obviously was no longer working for the factory when you got out of the

ghetto because then she would have been caught had she been working continuing to work for

the factory, wouldn’t she?

G: Well, no, the factory. Esla machine was working there. The factories continued to work

because they were about essentially, the Nazis approved having them make uniforms. ((((

(40:50) Yeah, so.

I: So, she did stay working for them while you were being hidden all over the place?

G: Well no, because the factories was in the ghetto.

I: Oh, okay. I was thinking she was one who left the ghetto daily to go to work.

G: No, no. The factory was in the ghetto. Did you ever see the movie The Pianist? Do you

remember there was a scene in a uniform factory? I remember, there was one, there was probably

just one that I remember for a couple of times for whatever reason, my mom would, maybe after
my mom placed my grandmother into a bunker, she paid a lot of money to place my grandmother

into a bunker. So, there was nobody home to take care of me, so my mom would take me with

her to work. And I remember being hidden. Exactly that scene, that’s in The Pianist. Hidden

under the tables among the stacks of uniforms. I remember my mom said, “Stay there and be

quiet. Don’t say anything.”

I: How could any little kids today, if you told them to stay still and be quiet, that they’d last very

long. That’s just amazing. I guess you knew.

G: That was Paperclips, it was my epiphany. It lead to the book and that lead to the talking. And,

um, I’m very glad that Mimi found it and asked me about and I was stupid enough to agree.

I: Is there anything that you think people can learn from this story?

G: Um, well, I guess you know I’m asked that question. It’s one of those questions that’s very

often asked. What would you like us to take away from this talk and I say “Keep an open mind.

Keep it --” (42:50) Those are the things I tell the kids. There’s a third one, in high schools,

depending on what kind of school I speak. But, I’m speaking at a high end school, I ended with

Never Again which is the last chapter in my book which has to do with this Holocaust denier that

I met.

I: In Illinois? Not the one running for office in Illinois?

G: No, no. This is, she was a nurse at MIT.

I: And she was a Holocaust denier?

G: Yeah, yeah. And I learned that when I was a freshman at MIT. But I ended, I end that chapter,

for most students, I end it with never again. That it’s only by. It’s why I wrote my story. So that I

could pass it on to the next generation, so hopefully they’ll pass it on to their kids. And in the

letters I’ll get very often that says, well you know, “I’ll be sure that my kids know this”, but
they’ll say, I went home and I told my parents about it and I want to tell my kids about it so that

they can pass it on. So, that’s how I end most of the time. But when I’m talking at a ghetto type

school. Like at a black neighborhood or in some of the penitentiary schools. I talk to some of

them. Particularly like in San Jose, which has a very large Hispanic community with a lot of

gangs. And when kids get caught either fighting with weapons or dealing heavy drugs, not using

drugs, but dealing drugs. They get sent to this kind of like halfway school. And several of those,

I’ve spoken at several of those. And, like, for example, do you know there is the teachers who

are normal, various ages, and there’s a whole bunch of young men dressed in suits or sport shirts,

not their guard uniform, but they’re the guards. And these kids, they go to that school and if

they’re good, then they get sent back down to normal school. And if they are not good, they

continue with gang activity. Sometimes there’s two different gang groups at one school and of

course that’s an issue. I couldn’t talk, I had to talk to two different gang groups separately

because they wouldn’t fight, that’s not a question, but they would pay attention to each other

rather than me. So at that kind of school I wouldn’t talk to them about Never Again because they

haven’t heard of never again. It’s not thier conocept. So I tell them another story. When I was in

highschool, probably in junior year, this was a small highschool in Oregon. Maybe 300 kids,

small town, 5,000. Mostly farmers or loggers. Timber, sawmills. And a vocational consularly

cam to that school when I was a junior. And they talked to the junior calss who tried to guide us.

What do we do after graduation? Cause we had another year. Sure we’d be aiming at college or

not or at a trade school, but half teh kids in that school went to the local Oregon colleges. This

was a small town in Oregon near Portland. So tehy would go to Oregon State or UNiversity of

Oregon. So half the class went to one of those colleges or some of them local ones. And then the

other half, some of them went to trade school or became farmers or loggers or not anything else.
So, he interviewed each of us, juniors. And when it was my turn, ever since the time when I saw

that airplane through the roof, I wanted to try something with airplanes. And I said I want to be

an aeronautical engineer. And he said to me just straight out, well you may not be smart enough

for that. ‘Cause at that moment I thought, well wait a minute, the first thing I said was “this is

America”. I’d learned about the American dream, that no matter what your family background is,

if you really want something and are willing to work hard for it, you can get there. But you gotta

work for it. And I thought, wait a minute, this is America, this is not Poland. ‘Cause in Poland at

that time if you were born into a farming family, you would become a farmer. This was 1953. I

was here in America only 3 years, 4 years. I came in December ‘49. So, I thought, no this is

America, I wanna become an aeronautical engineer. And I want to study harder, but I want to

make it. I’m not going to let him discourage me. And then I realize afterwards, that he’s probably

discouraging me because he probably got discouraged himself and he’s just passing it on. So he’s

passing on his fears to me. And when I talked to schools like the penitentiary type schools or a

ghetto school, I say “If anybody in your life tries to discourage you for something you really

want to do in your life and your willing to work for it. You got to be prepared to work for it.

Don’t let anyone discourage you as long as you are willing to work for it.” And I tell them

“Whoever who is trying to discourage you probably got discouraged themselves.” So that’s a

message that I left with kids who will got to these ghetto type schools. And by the way, in the

ghetto type schools I’ve been asked a question like, “How do we know you’re telling the truth?”

Because they are probably used to having so many people lie to them, so they say how do we

know you are telling the truth. I get asked all the time questions like that.

I: Do you have a favorite age level that you like to speak to, like middle school, high school,

college? Do you have a preference?

G: Not middle school. I will talk to middle schools, but like 7th grade is too young. I was really,

really shocked because the very first school I spoke was the alternative school number 1 in

school in Seattle, which no longer exists. That was the very first school. It was organized by the

Holocaust center that was like in October of 2010. And the first question, in one of the chapter

we were in this hiding place and this was when we were trying to escape the ghetto. And there

were other families there and one of the families had a little black dachshund. And I remember

the owners told us, no he never barks, he’s silent, not he never barks. And I’d play with him, I’d

always play with him. The next morning I woke up and I wanted to play with him and he wasn’t

there. So I ask his owners, well where is it? And they said, it’s gone. No other explanation. I

learn afterwards from my mom that during the night the dog started to bark at some footsteps

outside the shed and the owners had to choke her to death. So when I say this, I sometimes choke

up a little at that, but the first question from that alternative school was we have dachshund, what

kind of a dachshund was it, was it smooth haired or long-haired dachshund? And I thought, this

is the very first question in my very first talk. And I thought, oh shit, what am I doing? Why do I

bother doing this? This is the question. That was a middle school. Well, all the other questions

kind of repaired the damage. But that’s why 7th grade is too young. Eighth grade is kind of in the

middle.

Speaking of listening. I always have photographs. I take my camera and I always have someone

take photographs because they go on the website. And when I speak at these penitentiary type

school, they all have to wear the same color, black. No gang colors. Somebody takes

photographs. And one of the first schools, penitentiary type schools where I sometimes spoke, I

can tell when the photograph was taken because the numbers on it. And the early part. They are

all sitting like this. Particularly the guys. And towards the end of the talk they are all sitting like
this. So I know they’re listening. And they ask some very, very good questions sometimes. The

big guys are the enforcers. They ask dumb questions, but not always. Sometimes they surprise

the hell out of me when they ask a very very aware and very important question. But, it’s the

little guys who are usually the dealers. They ask the good questions. But for example, one of the

big guys said to me, “Have you ever considered suicide?” And this was in the open thing and I

said no. I was too young to even understand it. But afterwards I called them over, I do this

sometimes with people that I know they’re bothered by something.

I: Their questions are sincere…

G: Yeah, yeah. I call them over and I said, you know, you asked that question. Have you ever--

And he said, no, no, no, like this. And he’s a big tough guy. No, no, no, no. And I thought, that’s

too quick. So I said to him, you know, I just wanted to leave this with you. That someone in my

wife’s family committed suicide and it ruined the rest of the side of that family because they all

felt guilty for that. So I said, if you or anybody you know ever considers suicide, remember, it

wouldn’t be just killing yourself, it would be killing some people in your family. This is a big

tough guy and he was kid of looking at his own shoes and he said “thank you”.

I: It’s amazing what something not even related to the Holocaust, what the purpose there is. And

yet, you might have changed somebody’s life.

G: It’s funny. Another guy in another year at that school said to me one time, he said to me in

class, open class. Big tough guy in a black shirt, like all of them, he said “Considering your

history, what’s your view of humanity?”. Wow, it’s a very deep question. And I thought, wow,

you know, he looks like a big guy, a big tough guy, a hood. And again afterwards I pulled him

aside and I said, what’s your story? Why are you here? And he said, “I screwed up. I did some

bad, stupid things I shouldn’t have. And I said, “And now?” And he said, “I’m keeping my nose
clean. I hear your story, I hear your message. I’m going to get out of here and I hope that it

works. That they send me back to highschool. And when I finish I’m going to enlist in the air

force and I hope that in spite of being here, that they send me to college so I can become an

aeronautical engineer like you.” So I said to myself, I’m going to be here next year. I hope

you’re no longer here. And I went back to there next year and I didn’t see him, so I asked around

about him to the principal and he said, “He’s back in his high school.”

I: Do you go to the same schools in your area, you go back?

G: Some of them, some of them. A lot of the east bay schools, I speak there every year. Some of

them, the penitentiary schools. This one I spoke at three times, three years. Some I only speak at

once. Depends whether they have their course. But some of them of them it’s an annual event.

I’ll show you something. I want to show you this. One of the schools, it’s a high school in east

bay. Very mediocre. Nothing special. I always read up on the school I go to the website or

wikipedia or the website. Trace down diversity. What kind, etc. The schools that have a lot of

East Bay population have a lot of Indian or Asian. Parents work in Silicon Valley, make good

money. Those are the kids that, when they leave after the end of school they have these little

carts for the books. When I tell them, I was so naive, I would ask my math teacher in highschool,

what’s a good school for --. (56:00) And he said MIT. And I was so naive and so stupid that I

didn’t knew that it was hard to get into. It was the only school I applied to. And went to class, I

heard an oh. But I got lucky and I got in. They all clapped. But at this one mediocre school kids

come up to me, they want to have photographs of me which I put up on the website with my

camera. They take a selfie with their cellphones, but there was this one kid that was kind of

hanging back and he didn’t approach me. And kids would come and they would leave and he

would stay back. Finally there was nobody there and I came up to him shly. He is this big boy.
He said your stars meant a lot to me. And he says “There’s this lucky thing that I always carry

around with me. I want you to have it.” *a marble* And that was about five, seven years ago. It

was one of the first schools I’ve ever spoke to. And this, with honor I carry it. I guess it’s a

talisman. So yeah, I always carry it. Sometimes when I’m going through security they search me

and ask me, what’s that? And I say it’s glass. And they ask me why I have it and I say, good

luck. I will tell you one other thing. I talk about luck a lot. I think I survived by luck only. My

mom survived by luck, strength, and wits. But I survived by luck only. When you see my book,

pure, pure luck. When kids ask me about it I say, I have had three major strokes of luck in my

life. One surviving the Holocaust. Two coming to America. Three meeting my wife and marry

her. We have been married 45 years. Each year is better than the next. With those three pieces of

luck I don’t need anymore.