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offset method #6689 - 10/06/06 08:41 AM 0 registered (), 11
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foglamp online.
When modelling verical dummy using the offset method.
Key: Admin, Global Mod,
Member Why is it on the example shown on the application guide, Mod
there is a DX and DY on the dummy spreadsheet ? (DX
Registered:
08/01/05 being equal in magnitude but opposite in direction to the February
Posts: 33 offset.)
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
Loc: N/A Please explain what does this offsetting do ?
1 2 3
Thanks 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
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!!! 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
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Forum Stats
Re: offset method #6690 - 10/06/06 08:54 AM 11386 Members
Richard 14 Forums
Ay CAESAR II uses "3D Beam Elements", which are 15241 Topics
Member essentially "infinitely thin sticks". CAESAR II only knows 68789 Posts
where the centerlines are - there is no sense of volume or
Registered: Max Online: 105 @
12/13/99 surface.
07/02/17 10:16 PM
Posts: 5816
Loc: Houston, In the example you reference, the element's delta
Texas, USA dimensions (DX and DY) are necessary to go from the
base node (205) to the bend mid point node (84).
However, node (84) is on the centerline, which is not
really the correct attachment location. The computation of
the dimensional correction to get from the centerline to
the actual attachment location is shown in the figure on
the next page (in the Applications Guide). These
corrections are defined in the input using the "Offset"
dialog.
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Hexagon PPM (CAS)

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Re: offset method #6691 - 10/09/06 11:21 PM

foglamp
Thanks Mr. Ay, Just a follow up, is it OK for the dummy to
Member appear inclined on the plot window (due to DX=4.390 in
the example shown on the Application Guide) ?
Registered:
08/01/05

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Posts: 33 _________________________
Loc: N/A !!!

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Re: offset method #6692 - 10/09/06 11:38 PM

Richard
Ay Yes.
Member
_________________________
Registered: Regards,
12/13/99 Richard Ay
Posts: 5816
Loc: Houston, Hexagon PPM (CAS)
Texas, USA

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Re: offset method #6693 - 10/09/06 11:45 PM

foglamp
Thanks
Member
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08/01/05
Posts: 33
Loc: N/A
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Re: offset method [Re: foglamp] #35611 - 05/25/10 02:20 AM

sillyman
Dear Mr.Richard,
Member
I digged out the old query and want the confirmation
Registered:
06/06/09 again from the highly inspired person (Mr.Richard).
Posts: 126
Loc: Australia As per Caesar-II Aplication Guide, i modeled the
trunnion/dummy support as per offset method. In the plot
the dummy support is shown as tilted with reference to
the (X,Y & Z coordinates) Refer attachment. Is it mean,
the input as per offset method is correct even if the plot
shows as a tilted dummy.

Since it is been long ago, the query was rised, is it still the
plot for offset dummy was not updated after several
revision of Caesar-II.

Thankyou.

Attachments
Dummy Offset Elbow.zip (388 downloads)

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Re: offset method [Re: sillyman] #35618 - 05/25/10 08:23 AM

Richard
Ay The Piping Input Processor doesn't know where the bends
Member nodes really are. This isn't determined until the model is

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Registered: sent through Error Checking, and the true coordinates are
12/13/99 generated in the "analysis files". This is why you're seeing
Posts: 5816
Loc: Houston, that tilt.
Texas, USA
There is nothing to update or change here, unless we
completely replace the "modeling methodology" we use
(in the Piping Input Processor) for bends.
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Hexagon PPM (CAS)

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Re: offset method [Re: Richard Ay] #35624 - 05/25/10 12:00 PM

sillyman
Dear Mr.Richard,
Member
So you confirm that even the plot show as a tilted
Registered:
06/06/09 arrangement, if we input the offset option as per Caesar-
Posts: 126 II application guide, the dummy support is said to be
Loc: Australia modeled as per offset method.

With your confirmation let me model the same for our


project.
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Re: offset method [Re: sillyman] #35626 - 05/25/10 01:24 PM

Richard
Ay Yes, follow the Application's Guide.
Member
_________________________
Registered: Regards,
12/13/99 Richard Ay
Posts: 5816
Loc: Houston, Hexagon PPM (CAS)
Texas, USA

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Re: offset method [Re: Richard Ay] #36957 - 07/20/10 11:50 PM

ammangz
Dear Richard Ay,
Member
I have followed the procedure for modeling trunnion on an
Registered:
01/17/10 elbow using the offset method as described in the
Posts: 5 Applications Guide.
Loc:
Philippines As compared to the one modeled by "sillyman" (post
#35611), the tilt of the trunnion on my model is somewhat
going outward while the other inward.

please confirm if what i've done is correct..and if not,


where i went wrong..

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Attachments

Description: trunnion on elbow_offset method

Edited by ammangz (07/21/10 12:02 AM)

_________________________
Best regards,

ammangz

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Re: offset method [Re: ammangz] #37008 - 07/22/10 07:30 PM

Nald
Member Good day everyone!
Registered:
02/20/09 I was intrigued by this post of ammangz..And so i tried
Posts: 119 modeling the trunnion by offset method and came up to
Loc: Malaysia the same appearance of the trunnion (i mean the direction
of the tilt)..

anybody who can confirm this?

_________________________
Regards,
Nald

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Re: offset method [Re: Nald] #37025 - 07/23/10 08:30 AM

Loren
Brown Yes, he has modeled it correctly. The tilt won't be there
Member for the analysis, only for the input. The offset will remove
the tilt and allow the dummy leg to be aligned with the
Registered:
10/18/01 centerline of the pipe coming down.
Posts: 285
Loc: Houston, _________________________
TX Loren Brown
Director of Technical Support
CADWorx & Analysis Solutions
Intergraph Process, Power, & Marine
12777 Jones Road, Ste. 480, Houston, TX 77070 USA

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Re: offset method [Re: foglamp] #68912 - 04/26/17 07:39 AM

Adrian82
Hello Stressers
Member I have one additional question to this type of support like

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2/9/2018 offset method - Intergraph CADWorx & Analysis
Registered: dummy leg.
07/25/16 If I gave on the second end of support an anchor.
Posts: 83
Loc: Poland What is the difference if I connected this anchor to CNode
or if I stay it without CNode.
Because in my case I have situation that if I give a CNode
the system is correct, if not I have exceeded allowable
stress !!!

Why ??

Edited by Adrian82 (04/26/17 07:45 AM)


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Re: offset method [Re: foglamp] #68916 - 04/26/17 08:53 AM

Richard
Ay This depends on what you did with the CNODE. If you
Member didn't do anything with the CNODE (like fix it with
displacements), then that anchor isn't doing anything and
Registered:
12/13/99 you have essentially a free end.
Posts: 5816
Loc: Houston, Perhaps you should open a Support Request on Smart
Texas, USA Support and send in the model so Tech Support can look
at it?
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Hexagon PPM (CAS)

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Re: offset method [Re: foglamp] #68926 - 04/28/17 02:21 AM

Adrian82
Thank You Richard for Your answer.
Member So as I good understand when I have an anchor point in
the end of dummy leg without Cnode - is fixed, but when I
Registered:
07/25/16 add a CNode like on the pictures below I have free end
Posts: 83 though I have assumed anchor ?
Loc: Poland

Regards
___________________________________

Adrian

Attachments

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Re: offset method [Re: foglamp] #68927 - 04/28/17 08:37 AM

Richard
Ay From the above images:
Member
1) The node you are trying to restrain is 10000.
Registered:
12/13/99
Posts: 5816 2) If you add a restraint (anchor) at 10000, you have
Loc: Houston, fixed node 10000 in global space.
Texas, USA
3) If you add a restraint (anchor) at 10000, but define a
CNODE (say 10001), then you have anchored node 10000
to 10001. So, what did you do with 10001? If the answer
is nothing, then 10001 is free and therefore so is 10000.
You must use 10001 as another node in your piping
system, or apply displacements to 10001.
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Hexagon PPM (CAS)

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Re: offset method [Re: Richard Ay] #68959 - 05/08/17 03:49 AM

Adrian82
Thank You Richard for good explanation.
Member One more question.
I received information that on this bend I have a anchor
Registered:
07/25/16 point.
Posts: 83 Additional question.
Loc: Poland I anchored a node 10000 so the and a element from node
10000 to 240 is rigid as on the picture this is correct
thinking or something should be changed ???
Because of course in anchor point displacements are 0 but
in point 240 I have some displacement so it that means
that rigid element can move on the end connected to bend
??
________________________
Adrian

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Re: offset method [Re: foglamp] #68966 - 05/08/17 11:49 PM

Richard
Ay If node 10000 is really anchored then you must model
Member that node as an anchor. I question whether 10000-240 is
really a rigid element - what is this? If this is a pipe or
Registered:
12/13/99 even a piece of structural steel it isn't rigid. Yes node 240
Posts: 5816 can have some movement (hence my question concerning
Loc: Houston, the rigid element).
Texas, USA
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Hexagon PPM (CAS)

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Re: offset method [Re: foglamp] #68995 - 05/11/17 08:29 AM

Adrian82
Richard is a Piece of steel structure like I-beam (double T-
Member beam) but I make it as a piece of pipe with thicker wall
because it is easier for me.
Registered:
07/25/16 I think that the stiffness will be very similar to the beam
Posts: 83 from simmilar material.
Loc: Poland But it is okey for me becasue You solved my problem

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Re: offset method [Re: Richard Ay] #69017 - 05/16/17 01:46 AM

Adrian82
Dear Intergraph Experts
Member I have a question becasue in standard in Polish to use the
trunnion on the elbow we should at a first step weld a pad
Registered:
07/25/16 to elbow.
Posts: 83 So this is simple to do in Caesar II becasue we can add a
Loc: Poland fitting thickness.
But when we had a welded a piece of pipe we have
something like a "Tee"
and in my opinion we should ad a SIF in this place !!
Is this is correct thinking ??
If Yes what kind of SIF we should implement ??

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Re: offset method [Re: foglamp] #69020 - 05/16/17 08:13 AM

Michael_Fletcher
Adrian,
Member
You can calculate these SIFs using FE/Pipe.
Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 488 Generally, there are 4 SIFs in this case at present
Loc: Louisiana, US time. In-plane/out-plane for the elbow, and in-
plane/out-plane for the trunnion.

SIFs will vary wildly dependent on geometry.


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Re: offset method [Re: Michael_Fletcher] #69029 - 05/17/17 08:29 AM

Adrian82
But what can I do if I don't have this software ???
Member

Registered:
07/25/16
Posts: 83
Loc: Poland
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Re: offset method [Re: foglamp] #69031 - 05/17/17 09:53 AM

Michael_Fletcher
Alternatively, you could use the "SIF @ Bend" tool
Member under the "Analysis" tool. However, it has
limitations on ratios of sizes and thicknesses, and I
Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 488 find that most of the time it generates extremely
Loc: Louisiana, US conservative SIFs compared to FEA, and only
sometimes it generates slightly non-conservative
SIFs.

In addition, you could ignore the SIFs and model it


within FEA software (there are free versions out
there), but I can't attest to their ease of use or
accuracy of solver.
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Re: offset method [Re: Michael_Fletcher] #69043 - 05/19/17 02:19 AM

Adrian82
Thanks for Your Help Michael.
Member It was very usefull for me.
Regards
Registered:
07/25/16
Posts: 83
Loc: Poland
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Re: offset method [Re: foglamp] #70186 - 10/17/17 11:10 AM

The Gas
Board Richard,

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Member
When using the offset method to model a stanchion under
Registered:
08/08/08 a bend, why are restraints that are applied to the bottom
Posts: 12 of the stanchion shown as remote from the node of
Loc: UK application?

Thanks

Attachments
STANCHION.C2 (15 downloads)

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Re: offset method [Re: foglamp] #70187 - 10/17/17 11:18 AM

The Gas
Board Oops, forgot to dd the offsets.
Member

Registered:
08/08/08 Attachments
Posts: 12 STANCHION.C2 (24 downloads)
Loc: UK

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Re: offset method [Re: foglamp] #70194 - 10/18/17 02:15 AM

Dave
Diehl The input processor only registers the tangent intersection
point of the bend, not the "near", "mid" and "far" points.
Member Your plotted images will be displayed at only "From" and
"To" nodes.
Registered:
12/14/99 _________________________
Posts: 2242
Dave Diehl
Loc: Houston,
TX, USA

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