Make Your Own Miniature Electric Hub Motor - 6

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Make Your Own Miniature Electric Hub Motor by
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Step 6: Actually Winding the Motor
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If you've never wound a motor before, the diagrams of LRK windings are
probably pretty meaningless. This is a time when you need to learn the (/id/ChibikartRapid
nomenclature of motor hobbyists.

An example would be the dLRK PrototypingaSubminiatureElectr/)
(http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/3/8/9/2/0/a216110514212N
14PDLRKDELTA.jpg)winding:

AabBCcaABbcC
× Check out our new classes! >> (/classes/?utm_medium=cta&utm_source=banner)
or the classic LRK (http://www.southernsoaringclub.org.za/BM3
LRK%20Winding%20Diagram1.jpg) winding,
(/id/TheNewand
AbCaBc

What? Did you just sing the alphabet song or something? Kind of. The three ImprovedBrushlessElectricScooterPo/)
phases of the motor are referred to in this case as A, B, and C.
x
A capital letter indicates one winding chirality, a lower case means the other. For
instance, if A is designated "make a loop of wire in the clockwise direction", then
a means "wind the loop of wire in the counterclockwise direction". And a dash or
space means an unwound tooth.

The general convention is capital letter equals clockwise loop, lower case equals
counterclockwise loop. But, what is more important is consistency. If you do it
one way, stick with it. Welcome to DIY heaven.

So what does the above string of gibberish mean? Starting at any tooth (mark
this as your index!), begin making loops of wire around it according to the
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designation. To wind two teeth Aa style, wind one of them clockwise, and the
other counterclockwise (or vice versa keep track of this.)

There is no "right method" to obtain clean windings, but the last thing you want
to do is just bundle wires around the tooth with reckless abandon. For large
motors, use latex gloves to ease hand abrasion and a wooden dowel to wrap
wire around for extra leverage.

Unfortunately, I don't currently have any pictures of video of me winding a motor.
This might change in the near future to save a thousand words of explanation.

Perhaps one of the most valuable resources available is the Combination Table
(http://powercroco.de/Kombinationstabelle.html). Input your number of stator
teeth ("nuten") and your number of magnets ("pole") and it will automatically
generate the correct winding pattern! The above table was generated by one of
the Crazy German R/C Airplane Dudes, who seem to be the source of all
technological advancement in the model motor scene.

Single Layered, Multi Layered

You may find that you can't get the N number you want by only winding one
layer of wires on the stator. Simple solution: Keep winding and make a second
layer.

Two to three layer windings are generally the limit of heating & cooling
unevenness for small motors, and the Rm gets ridiculous as well. As more
layers are added, the end turn effect will become more and more of a factor.

If you find yourself having to wind many layers, perhaps switching down a size
of wire will alleviate that.

How many turns (N) do I need?

The other killer question of small motor design. Given other motor parameters,
you can backsolve easily for the minimum N needed to achieve a certain design
goal, usually torque. Accounting for losses and assumptions, N should be above
this number by a comfortable margin explained shortly.

Example(Updated 3/28/2012 to correct the math which has been wrong for
over 2 years! I keep meaning to fix it, then never getting around to it.
Ultimately, enough of you called me out on it, so congrats. Here's the fixed
math using also the new torque constant factor m).

Let's say that I want to design a motor inside a 12cm (0.12m) wheel that will let
me climb a 10% grade (or about 5.5 degrees inclination) at velocity v = 5 m/s
(about 11mph), and I weigh m = 65kg. The force of gravity F pulling me back
down the hill is

F = m * g * sin 5.5° = 61N, or thereabouts. I

I want to climb the hill at 5 m/s. Mechanical power is torque * rotational speed,
but it is also linear force * linear velocity. x

Thus Pm = 61 * 5 = 305 W

Seems reasonable, right? Assume the motor is a perfect transducer (it's
definitely not). The electrical power required is also 305 watts.

Assume my battery is 28 volts, so i = 305 W / 28 V = 10.9A
To exert a linear force of 61N at a radius of 0.06m (wheel radius), the torque T is
3.66Nm.

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Two variables, T and i, have now been established. The motor is a 12tooth, 3
phase motor, so m is 4 (there are four teeth per phase). You can now reduce the

equation to
T / (4 * m * i) = N * L * R* B

R is ultimately limited by the size of my magnet rotor and inner diameter of my
tire a topic which is forthcoming. Let's say that my wheel choice has forced a
maximum stator diameter of 70mm, and the motor can't be more than 30mm
wide to fit in my vehicle.

B is my magnetic field strength. Let's assume it is 1 Tesla for now we will see
soon that this is not a bad guess if your motor magnets are reasonably thick.

T / (4 * m * i * L * R) = N

Let's see what this comes out to.

3.66 / (4 * 4 * 10.9 * 0.03 * 0.035) = 19.98 = N

This value is a reasonable first approximation for the number of turns per tooth
you need. Since hundredthsprecision turn fractions aren't possible, take the
closest integer: 20.

Fiddle Factors and Hand Waves

Every nonideality and inefficiency in the world will work to make your motor
faster (read: less torquey) than what the number of turns alone would indicate.
Therefore, it is good sense to consider this as the absolute minimum number of
turns per tooth. The torque constant value derived from using NIBLR is generally
20 to 33% too high for average fractionalslot, permanentmagnet motors like
the type we are considering.

Remember also that motors are not perfect transducers. The average efficiency
of a decent BLDC motor is somewhere around 90%. So, if I want to perform this
hillclimb at maximum efficiency, that's much different than attempting it at
maximum power output. The efficiency of a motor at maximum power output is
always less than 50%. This is something to be well aware of if you are using
this 'target output force' method to design your turn count, then you should take
the speed to be somewhere close to your anticipated cruising speed. This
makes sure that, if anything, you overdesign the motor for torque as
nonidealities only take it away from you.

The above motor example is the motor for Project RazEr
(http://www.etotheipiplusone.net/?page_id=133). In actuality, RazEr's motor has
25 turns per tooth overspecified by roughly 25%.

To wrap up, R and L are mechanical constraints dictated by your vehicle's
mechanical parts while m, B, N, and i are electromagnetic constraints dictated
by your choice of magnets, wire, and coil layout.

x
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X karteks (/member/karteks) 23 days ago Reply

8
this is one of the absolute best instructables I've ever read : mainly because it is
actually instructive !!
great work
for my part I'm interested in the topic because I'd like to make an electric
skateboard with hub motors : options are cheap Chinese ones I'm afraid to
waste money on, custom made ones that are quite expensive (250$
apiece+shipping) and now I think it might be worth going the DIY way if I can
get my hands on an acceptable stator...
in fact I think the best would probably be to make 2 with lower power to make
them easier to wind and especially to heat less...
thanks again for the inspiration
wired365 (/member/wired365) 2 months ago Reply
x
Hey there I just recently found this instructable and first I want to say, nice work!
I did want to
point out that in step 2 Kv and Km are inversely proportional. I.E. Km has units
[V/(rad/s)] and Kv should be [(rad/s)/V], which means when you multiply
Kv by your battery voltage you get a rough estimate for top speed. What you
calculated by substituting your equations is that the backemf constant Ke is
equal to the torque constant Kt, which is true. You refer to both of those as Km.
tavsanist (/member/tavsanist) Welcome to DIY heaven.
4 months ago Reply
EndTurn also contributes to Torque. Anything that increases magnetic flux
desity in the cores also increases the torque.
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krille15 (/member/krille15) 8 months ago Reply
Hi
I wanna make an hub motor inside an longboard wheel.
How should I build it?
ShwedishFish (/member/ShwedishFish) 9 months ago Reply
great write up, thank you!
magdy1993 (/member/magdy1993) 9 months ago Reply
great job
can i control this motor using arduino ? and if i can do that how could i do it ?
Vishnu Menon (/member/Vishnu Menon) a year ago Reply
Hi, great job.
what if regenerative braking concept. in the sense do we get back emf in BLDC
motor.
if yes what if you harness the power from it
homycat (/member/homycat) a year ago Reply
I am not good in electricity, but you explain very well, thanks!
PhongN7 (/member/PhongN7) a year ago Reply
I learned something A=heat that's why ev are high voltage.
RiftWaste (/member/RiftWaste) a year ago Reply
This looks so cool, but after I read the why not to build list it got a little stale.
Urban hillbilly (/member/Urban hillbilly) 2 years ago Reply
how large a motor would I have to build to power a bike light consisting of
approx 50 led lights? × Check out our new classes! >> (/classes/?utm_medium=cta&utm_source=banner)
nitrous (/member/nitrous) 2 years ago Reply
Could you just clarify for me the "AC" part of this whole thing.
Does the controller simply emulate the commutator of a DC motor, energizing
the coils in such a way as to create a rotating magnetic field or are you saying it
also converts the supplied DC to a true alternating current which it distributes to
the coils in such a way as to produce a rotating AC field? x
Thanks
Doug
Mou7amed (/member/Mou7amed) 2 years ago Reply
hi. i'm from tunisia. good job man !. can you contact me on
jakefouly@gmail.com i need some help. thank you
X
kasra_sa (/member/kasra_sa) made it! Enter email 2 years ago Reply

hello guys. i am new member. hope to could find good things for better future
for succeses. tx all I'm in! (http://www.instructables.com/account/register?sourcea=banner&bannerType=C)
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vasi1y (/member/vasi1y) 2 years ago Reply
Issues with your formula:
You pick Mevey's 2.30 equation:
T = 2 * N * B * Y * i * D/2
Where N is the number of turns per pahse, and '2' is the number of active
phases. Then you redefine N as the number of turns per tooth, and define m
number of teeth per phase. So (previous definition of N) = (new definition of N) *
m. The result equation:
T = 2 * m * N * B * Y * i * D/2
Not four but two!!!
Next, in Mevey's 2.30 equation D is the diameter of the coil centers. Not stator's
outer diameter, but diameter of the coil centers which is obviously smaller than
stator's outer diameter.
P.S. Thanks for the article anyway. It is really motivating!
murray.scott.142 (/member/murray.scott.142) 2 years ago Reply
the most in depth view about brushless motors awesome saving this page for
future guidence cheers
nuvola.rossa.9828 (/member/nuvola.rossa.9828) 2 years ago Reply
Hi,
good math derivation, T = 4 * m * N * B0 * (t / (t + g)) * L * R * i,
but this is exactly the double the torque you calculate using what reported on
LRK Motor Analysis Worksheet
http://www.femm.info/examples/lrk40/lrkbldc.pdf
(http://www.femm.info/examples/lrk40/lrkbldc.pdf)T = 4 * (rr+rs)/(rsrr) * Br * N *
L * t * ( I I0)
where this formula is calculated taking into account that just two phase current
are active on a trapezioidal drive, and that the current to be used should be just
the active current (total current less free running current).
Which formula is the correct one???
x
asdqweasd (/member/asdqweasd) 4 years ago Reply
Torque should definitely depend on current. So, it should be T = 4 * m * N * B0 *
(t / t + g) * L * R * i instead of T = 4 * m * N * B0 * (t / t + g) * L * R
nuvola.rossa.9828 (/member/nuvola.rossa.9828)
. asdqweasd
(/member/asdqweasd) 2 years ago Reply
Or better, using correct parenthesis position:
T = 4 * m * N * B0 * (t / (t + g)) * L * R * i
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but furthermore:
for "i" you have use the useful portion of total current, i.e. "i" free

running i zero (taking into account the eddy current and friction losses);
for "R" you have to intend the medium radius between stator and rotor
(where the magnetic force act) which is in the middle of (t+g)=magnet
thickness + air gap zone. Already a member? Login » (/account/login?)
jacobbloy (/member/jacobbloy) 2 years ago Reply
Hi mate I'm making a hub motor for a skateboard, 100kv 15turns in wye dlark
with 6 strands 0.34mm wire (this is all I can fit)
80mm diameter wheel, 50mm diameter motor, 40.7mm x30mm stator 12t 14p,
with 40SH magnets 30x7x3, air gap between 0.50.7 depending on tolorance.
Will be using 29v batterys 8ah 30c.

I want to get up a hill of about 1015% grade at about 20km/h
7090kg. How much power do I need, is my wire cross section ok?
Iv been struggling with the math, and worried about the new winding not having
the current capabilities I need, but it's hard to fit the copper inside of the stator,
but maybe I'm just not good at it!
I'm also using hall sensors or optical sensors soon to get better start up as I
seem to get a lot of cogging! From even a small push!

Each skateboard is using 2 motors on the rear.

I really need help!
My email is jacob.bloy(at)gmail.com

My build page.
http://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?
f=31&t=65636&sid=32c74875705d1d55d0801eeae1381c11
Lord AntonH (/member/Lord AntonH) 2 years ago Reply
So I have a question about the equation to measure the theoretical torque. T =
4 * N * B * L * R * i in my case would be 10 turns per phase, 52 for the
neodymium magnet and assuming you measure things using the imperial
system the length of the stator would be 19.8 inches and the stator radius 3
inches. Putting through 42 amps would theoretically give me 5189184.0 torque.
Now this can't be accurate because at 1500 RPM that would give me
1.4821e+6 horsepowers just to put things into perspective, which is a insane
amount of horsepower.
t = 4 * 10 * 52 * 19.8 * 3 * 42 Where did I go wrong in the equation?
KrzysztofK (/member/KrzysztofK)
If we rewire series connection of coils to parallel i.a.w. 2 years ago Reply
http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/FPRewire.asp
(http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/FPRewire.asp) without changing position
of hall sensors, does it influence on steering algorithm? How to include this
wiring difference in one equation(e.g. torque equation)?
r2maker (/member/r2maker) 2 years ago x
Reply
Excellent instructable! Thanks for taking the time to document and share your
work. I need clarification on (at least) one topic. In the section discussing
Magnet Length the author states:
"Optimally, the magnet length is equal to the stator length (L)."
In the same section, magnet width is mentioned. Would someone clarify for me
the magnet dimensions that should be used for a given stator? Specifically,
what is the stator length (L)? A diagram would be especially useful.
Thank you.
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Ian Paul (/member/Ian Paul) 2 years ago Reply
Jah mahn, danke mahn, huge, this is monster info bro.
Thanks you! I'm in! (http://www.instructables.com/account/register?sourcea=banner&bannerType=C)
Timonb (/member/Timonb) 3 years ago Reply
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Tanmcnew (/member/Tanmcnew) 3 years ago Reply
You mention that you used 2 x 22AWG wires instead of 1 x 18AWG wire
because it was hard to wrap and bend for 25turns. You said "Use the wire
gauge table to compare diameters!", now 22 AWG wire is 0.644mm in diameter
and 18AWG wire is 1.024mm in diameter. So 2 x 0.644mm is 1.288mm and
thats well over the diameter of the 18AWG wire. Now 24AWG wire is 0.511mm
in diameter, and 2 x 0.511mm is 1.022mm which is a lot closer to 18AWG. I
don't want to be annoying i'm just confused. If we compare the surface areas
though 18AWG wire is 0.823mm^2 and the closest pair that would measure
similar is a pair of 21AWG wires, at 0.411mm^2 x 2 = 0.822mm^2, BUT neither
of those are the wire you said you were using. Should the diameter of the
multiple strands not add up to close to the diameter of the single wire? Thanks
for any help, just confused.
(https://cdn.instructables.com/FSN/M3WJ/HYR3F2DP/FSNM3WJHYR3F2DP.LARGE.jpg)
| lasermaster3531 (/member/lasermaster3531) . Tanmcnew (/member/Tanmcnew)
8
3 years ago Reply
Hi, I thought I'd jump in here and clarify a few things for
you: When doing anything with electrical wire, especially when said wire is
going to be carrying a significant percentage of its maximum safe current,
you should be aware that the determining factor in current capacity is the
Enter email
crosssectional area of the conductor, not the outside diameter. Since the
area increases faster than the diameter or circumference, a wire of half

the diameter will have one fourth the crosssection and thus one fourth the
current capacity. A wire 1.024mm in diameter has a section of 0.82 mm^2,
where a wire of 0.511mm diameter has a section of only 0.20mm^2. A
0.644mm wire has a section of 0.32, which means a pair are up to 0.64,
close to the original 0.82. If I were doing this, I'd use three strands of 22,
for a section of 0.96, better than the 18 gauge.
TL;DR don't go by diameter, go by cross section. They don't equate
directly.
TinoDino101 (/member/TinoDino101) 3 years ago Reply
Thanks for the formulas to make my motor, but your math was off by .01 on
3.66/(4*4*10.9*0.03 *0.035)=19.98.
it is really 19.99 (19.986)
juliajohn (/member/juliajohn) 3 years ago Reply

I really love your
writeups guys continue the good work.
http://www.zapelectricianbrisbane.com.au/
X steveastrouk (/member/steveastrouk) 3 years ago Reply

|
8 Being one of the last electrical and electronic engineering graduates from my
school, before they dropped the "electrical" part, electric machines have always
been a favourite subject of mine. This 'ible is one of the best I've ever read.
Excellent work.
Incidentally, you can get tyres made by the guys who can retread forklift truck
wheels. They vulcanise the tyre onto your own hub.
X steveastrouk (/member/steveastrouk) 3 years ago Reply

|
8 Being one of the last electrical and electronic engineering graduates from my
school, before they dropped the "electrical" part, electric machines have always
been a favourite subject of mine. This 'ible is one of the best I've ever read.
Excellent work.
×
Melia Esperas (/member/Melia Esperas)
Check out our new classes! >> (/classes/?utm_medium=cta&utm_source=banner)
Oh my, that's a lot of work and thanks for putting it all up 3 years ago Reply
here.
I was looking for a motor I could pass my leg though instead of using a ring
gear and a small motor to rotate it off to one side. The open motors would be
used to rotate segments of a leg roughly depicted here:
http://youtu.be/RV9fvg3C_fo (http://youtu.be/RV9fvg3C_fo)
I'm still working out how many segments and at what angle and speed each x
segment should rotate at for the maximum comfort of the rider while still
providing a good, natural leg motion. Seems making the motor would be
beyond my capabilities and I'll have to settle on the ring gear driving by a motor
or the like.
ElectricBlue123 (/member/ElectricBlue123) 3 years ago Reply
very interesting very ( ty iv bine tring to find info on moters like this )( o and I
Quote " Their large outrunner motors are inexpensive enough to consider
cannibalizing for stators. " The best technology projects at your fingertips
well LOL!!! ) thank you for this it was very help full. :)
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ckizer1 (/member/ckizer1) 4 years ago Reply
Can the stator core be plastic? Does it need to still be magnetic at all? I dont'
understand why you wouldn't build it out of something completely nonmagnetic
| valveman (/member/valveman) . ckizer1 (/member/ckizer1) 4 years ago Reply
No not plastic. The material has to have a high permeability to
concentrate the magnetic fields and at the same time reduce Eddy
Currents.
| valveman (/member/valveman) 4 years ago Reply
I wonder if a motorcycle stator from the magneto would make a nice stator for a
brushless motor? Used they are not too expensive.
colt01 (/member/colt01) 4 years ago Reply
Is it possible to melt down many cores in a foundry and then cast my own core?
The core I need is huge and would cost a lot of money to have it machined and
cast by a specialized group. Especially when I will need at least 3.
X teamtestbot (/member/teamtestbot) (author) . colt01 (/member/colt01) Reply

8
4 years ago
Stators are not cast. If you look at one, you'd notice they are
many thin and fine layers. Each of those actually are insulated from each
other.

A cast stator would basically be a big magnetic brake and would be
extremely inefficient and heat up quickly due to eddy currents. I think you
should look into motorcycle alternators and washing machines for large
ish (5" 6" 12") stators.
ckizer1 (/member/ckizer1) 4 years ago Reply
Where can we buy one of these motors (not the wheel) as a kit to put together
and learn? It's easy to get the wire, but not the pieces the wires get wrapped
around :(
lgabor (/member/lgabor) × Check out our new classes! >> (/classes/?utm_medium=cta&utm_source=banner)
it looks to me that the torque should be proportional to the 4 years ago Reply
square of the radius. At constant magnet induction and
current density the force per unit circumference length would be constant so the
torque would be proportional to the radius and the length of the circumference,
in turn proportional to the radius , hence the radius square.
Ottoclav (/member/Ottoclav) 4 years ago x
Reply
Im an electrician, and house wiring is done in 14, 12 and 10 gauges mostly.
Winding a motor in 18 gauge must be a chore! But im sure chris farley would
say, " It builds dexterity!"
8 mb inventor (/member/mb inventor) 4 years ago Reply
That's a lot to read but I read it anyway I can't make one of these. Because I
don't have the tools nor the supplys to build it but awesome job
X antoniraj (/member/antoniraj) Enter email 5 years ago Reply

|
8 very nice and educative. learned a lot from this.

X ElvenChild (/member/ElvenChild) 5 years ago Reply
| Already a member? Login » (/account/login?)
8 So there is probably something stupidly wrong with what I am about to write, but
I am tired and can not get this idea out of my head, so on with it.

What is to stop you from taking a standard dc motor, like the ones used in toy
scooters, and reinforcing the !#$@% out of it, namely in the (casing? or is it a
shell?) itself and the axel, welding a rim to the (reinforced) casing of the motor
and using that as a hub motor with the motors axel acting like the axel of a bike
wheel, with everything revolving around it?

Would the motor just plain not have enough torque?, or is there some other
blatantly obvious issue that I can't think of?
X sparten11 (/member/sparten11) . ElvenChild (/member/ElvenChild) Reply

8
5 years ago
here is a mild example of your concept and a solotiuon using a
standard dc brushed motor as an axle or pivot point. and having to add a
gear reduction to it to get it to move.

https://www.instructables.com/id/6AXISROBOTICARM/

check it out.

and vote for me
kaihattan (/member/kaihattan) . ElvenChild (/member/ElvenChild) Reply
5 years ago
You would not have enough torque, even on scooters with
small diameter wheels the motor is usually geared down at least one to
five, on a bike you will need a gearing of at least four times that! I hope
this helps.
X ElvenChild (/member/ElvenChild) . ElvenChild (/member/ElvenChild) Reply

|
8 5 years ago
Sort of like this, or this.
(https://cdn.instructables.com/F2G/R316/H3NLEYVI/F2GR316H3NLEYVI.LARGE.jpg) x
(https://cdn.instructables.com/FDI/VZ0Y/H3NNEZ2I/FDIVZ0YH3NNEZ2I.LARGE.jpg)
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Make Your Own Miniature Electric Hub Motor - 6

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