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The Second Viennese School

Author(s): Pierre Boulez and Tim Souster


Source: The Musical Times, Vol. 110, No. 1515 (May, 1969), pp. 473-474+476
Published by: Musical Times Publications Ltd.
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/954399 .
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The dualityofRazumovis expressed bytheseriesof such a way as to suggestthatsuch a character-
rising4thsfollowedbydescending semitoneswhich evenin our fashionably 20thcentury-
pessimistic
beginsthe wholeopera. CouncillorMikulin,the has somehopeofredemption.UnderWestern Eyes
Chiefof Police,is characterized by theintervalof has verymuchthesamekindoftheme,thoughin4
the major 6th; Grisha(like Fafner)by the aug- moremodernsetting.Like Silas Marner,Razumov
mented4thand diminished 5th;Teklabya drooping undergoesdevelopment, change,and ultimatere-
seriesofdescending major3rds.Thethemebywhich demptionthroughthe transforming agency of
Haldin firstkindles Razumov's interestin the humanlove. In thishe differs fromhis two great
'trustingeyes' of his exiledsisterprovidesfurther operaticpredecessors, Wozzeckand PeterGrimes,
materialforthescenesin whichRazumovinvokes who are essentially whenthey
thesame characters
herimage.The rhythm ofthecodeknockbywhich appearon thestage.
departtlis lifeas whentheyfirst
the conspirators announcetheirarrivalat Lasp- Great operas as Wozzeck and Peter Grimesare-
arov'sflatis absorbedintotheorchestral textureand perhapsthe two greatestof this century-their
becomesa kindof musicalsymbolof revolutionary residesinthecompassion
greatness withwhichtheir
destructiveness whichachievesits apotheosisat the creatorsinvesttheirprotagonists,a compassion
momentof Grisha'sbeating-up of Razumov. (This whichoverridesand transcendsthe intrinsically
rhythm was takenfromsome musicI wrotefora themes
pessimistic Neither
oftheoperasthemselves.
universityproduction oftheAgamemnon ofAeschy- of myoperascan claimcomparablestature. But
luswhileI wasworking on thispartoftheopera. In likethemtheyare bornout of concernforhuman
the Agamemnon musicthe rhythm represents the and moralissues;likethemtheytakeup thecudgel
Furies-an appropriate transference,perhaps.) on behalfoftheunderdog and theoutsider.Unlike
In my firstfull-length opera, Silas Marner,I them,however,theysuggestthattheremaybe some
attempted to dealwiththethemeoftheanti-hero in wayout.

The Second Viennese School


PierreBouleztalksto Tim Souster
PierreBoulezwillbeconducting
a seriesofconcerts
of could be used in a newwayis theBerlinPhilhar-
musicby composers of theSecondVienneseSchool monicHall, althoughits use at presentis terribly
withtheLSO on theSouthBank duringMay and conservative.We mustget away fromthisHoly
June. He herediscussesthemusicandhisapproach Mass whichthe concertis today. We musthave
to it withTimSouster. contactnot just betweenthe audienceand the
playersbutbetween theaudienceandthemusic.We
shouldhave musiccentreswhichare open all day
T.S. Whose idea was a series of concertsof musicof withfacilities scoresand
forhearingtapes,studying
thesecond VienneseSchool ? to lectures.For example,one shouldbe
listening
P.B.The idea camefirstfrommyself togetherwith able to come to thecentreafterworkand hear a
theartistic oftheHagueResidentie
director Orches- tapeof thefinalrehearsaland an introductionto a
tra,and it was first
realizedat theHollandFestival newwork.
lastJuneand July.I had spokento ErnestFleisch- Important aspects of new music, for example
mannaboutthepossibility ofdoingitwiththeLSO spatial music and electronics,necessitatea changein
and he immediately agreed. halls. These thingsplay what seems a surprisingly
Whatis thefunctionof theseries? littlepart in yourown music.
I likefromtimetotimetodo retrospectives, as in Well,I mustsay I am ratherdisappointed with
paintingwe had big retrospectives of Klee and electronicsbecause I do not find present-day
Kandinskyten yearsago. At presentwe have a electronicstypicalofmusic. I mustexplainmyself.
curioussituationwithregardtotheSecondViennese First,loudspeakers are used onlyforreproduction
School.Youngmusicians arenotas deeplyinvolved and not for the creationof different aspectsof
withit as 20 yearsago; forthemit is partof the sound. All is reducedto onedimension, evenwith
classical heritage. At the same time you have thebestequipment.The loudspeaker forme is like
audienceswho are not at all acquaintedwithit. ofstoneor wood. It reminds
a plasticimitation me
Theyhavean opportunity to heara workonlyonce too of an airportpublicaddresssystemthrough
or twicea year. Concertorganizations are so whichthevoicesof man,womanand castratoall
inflexible.Thereis no possibility of havingthe soundthesame. Second,electronic soundsare not
equivalentof permanent exhibitionsof classicalart producedby specifically musicaldevices,but by
and also retrospectives
and thenspecializedexperi- measuring equipment whichhasbeendistorted from
mentalshows. itsoriginalfunction.
Concert halls seem to be by nature less flexible But surely one shouldjudge thingsby results: if
thangalleries. For example, thefire regulationson good musiccomes out, one shouldonlybe happythat
the South Bank are terriblyrestrictive. Don't you thischancehas come about.
think music should be moving into new kinds of Theresultsin myopinionarenotveryconvincing.
buildingaltogether? Stockhausen'sbest pieces are those whichavoid
I am sureofit. The onlymodernbuilding
which pure electronics. And I am sure that the real
473

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Boulez at rehearsal

~i~i~i
:~?x"'~'~5''
?????:o:
i::::::::i::::::Y:::i:?:o:?:
:r?:?:?:??::?:?:?:?~?:?:?:~::::i:::i::~
~'?'? iiiii:::

": What about the instrumentation? That's con-


stantlyvaryingfromepisode to episode.
No so much in Die gliicklicheHand and Erwar-
:::;E~?~::::a
is muchbetterrealized
tung. The instrumentation
::i:~:''fi:::::tii
S:~:::i:::::::
~:~ :~.~x:W
?:~?:::::
in op 22. Hereyouhavea seriesofepisodeswhich
:i are reallyisolated.
:5 Whatabout the OrchestralVariations?
These I finda failure. They are what I call
Kokoschkasiert
c~?
Brahms:somewhat likeBrahmsbut
5L~ ~ll?????nu~-?~--?lI?I???~ ~ils:?
witha greatstrainon symmetry. You have sym-
?:'? :~?
metry whichis notexactlysymmetry, so thatreally
he avoids pure classicalacademicism, but at the
solution to the problemof the combinationof same time academicismis clearlythereat each
instruments and electronics has escapedeveryone. moment. For example thisconceptionof theme,
Contactmicrophones andso on area facilesolution. justthat. And theto Walzerin fourperiods. This is
They'rejust a practicalsolution,not a theoretical tive nothing compared theidea of continuous recita-
one. in thelastpieceofop 16. In theVariations you
These electronicdevicesand all thistransforma- mind-between havea conflict--and nota veryinteresting oneto my
theseries(and theprinciple of the
tion are also escapinga veryimportant problem:
thatof thedefinition of intervals.Today we work series)and thetheme.
eitherwithsemitones and transformed semitones, or You wouldn'tsay thesame ofthe WebernVariations
withindefinitepitches.Eitheryouhavetheeveryday opNo. 30, I hope.
universeof thesemitoneor you have a completely In spiteof someacademicaspectsto these
chaoticway of doing things. I am interested in Variations, youhaveinthema collaboration between
findinga wayto pass fromtheone to theother. I theidea ofserialstructure and theme.
can imaginea scorewhichbeginswithratherthick Yes, theyshow a wonderful unityof language; but
writingformanyinstruments usingonlysemitones. do you finda monotonousrhythmic gait in the later
Then you graduallyrarifythepolyphony withthe Webernas in the later Schoenberg?
tempobecomingslower,creatinga perspective of Not in theVariations, butelsewhere it is due to
microtonalintervals, based on laws. I may be a thefactthathe was usingveryshortphrasesoftwo
contre-courant,butI thinkthischaoticapproachis or threenotes,and you can't varyinfinitely the
simplythe consequenceof a previousexcess of relationship betweenthreenotes.
strictnessand escapes the real solutionof real But it's verysurprisingthathe was willingto give
problems. up the wonderful rhythmicfluidityof his earliermusic
Isn't it ratherdauntingthatall previousmicrotonal to such an extent.
musichas been a failure? I am not delightedwith this transformation
Yes, butofcoursetheintervals
do notdefinethe either. It's likeMondrian. Take thatmarvellous
music. I haveseentheexperimentsin quarter-tone periodof thetreeswithits veryrefined conception
musicby Vishnegradsky and Haba and theywere ofrhythmic yousee thepaintings
lines. Afterwards
or pseudo-Hindemith.
simplypseudo-Scriabin But of the 30s and 40s-just squaresand lines-and
good musiccan be written
despitethis. that'sa greatloss. I deplorethislossinWebern,for
I want to ask you about each of the Viennese examplein theop 21 Symphony, whichI findvery
composersindividually.First,Schoenberg. It seems academic.But in theop 30 Variations he beginsto
to me that now we can see all three more in per- recoveragain.
spective,Schoenbergemergesas a morerevolutionary What were the academic aspects you mentionedin
composereven than Webern. Stravinskyhas written: the Variations?
'Die gliicklicheHand' is infact so strikingthatit robs The obsessionwithmixingtheidea of Variation
not only 'Jacob's Ladder' but a worklike 'Le visage and Overture-Introduction,
Theme,Development,
nuptial'of originality. Development,
Recapitulation, Coda. Fromop 20
I don't thinkit's Stravinsky
who says that; it's onwardshe's obsessedwiththeuse of old forms.I
Craft,yousee. thinkthiscomesfromSchoenberg.It's remarkable
Can I put that in the scriptof thisconversation
? thatthe threeof themcame back to an academic
You can put thatveryclearly! I am sureof it. wayof thinking in form. The formin Wozzeckis
Also,thatworkhas nothingto do withSchoenberg livelyand non-academicbut the formof Lulu is
although some others have. Die gliicklicheHand sometimes veryacademic.
has greatweaknessestoo. As in Erwartung, the Wouldyou call Berg's ChamberConcerto,withits
idea of improvisinga successionof smalldramatic obsessionwiththenumber3, academic?
episodesis verystriking, if
but yousee thescore,the No, that'smoremystical.All thesameI cannot
processesof improvisation are mostlythe same. justifythereprisein thelast movementjust by the
Thereare no negativeaspectsof improvisation in use of numbers.The wholepieceis based on per-
theworksofSchoenberg.He didnotcareto notuse and thensuddenly
petualvariation in orderto make
somethingfor a momentand to use exclusively a balancebetweenthefirsttwomovements and the
something else. thirdyouhaveto makea reprisewhichis nonsense.
474

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Finally, Webernagain. Soon afterthewar Webern APPOINTMENTS, AWARDS
was regardedas sacred in avant-gardecircles,but I
heard recentlythat Stockhausen wrote some early KennethBarritt,Colin Gibson,and Ian Kemp have been ap-
worksincluding'Kontrapunkte'beforehe had hearda pointedto theadvisorycouncilof ScottishOpera.
note of Webern...
Geoffrey Gilberthas been appointeddirectorof instrumental
No, that'snottrue. He did notknoweverything Florida.
studiesat StetsonUniversity,
ofWebernbuthe had heardsomeimportant works.
He wrotethatwhenhe was in Parisin 1953-4,1
and EmanuelHurwitzwas appointedco-leaderof the NPO (with
Carlos Villa) fromApril1.
he wasspecially
influencedbyMessiaen-whichwas
alreadya consequenceof Webern.But anyway,it JohnLowdellhas succeededElgar Howarthas chairmanof the
did notcomefromtheheavens! RPO.
What about yourself'? In the earlypieces written agreementwiththe LPO;
GeorgSolti has signeda three-year
before 1950 was the influenceof Webernreally as withthe
from1971his London appearanceswillbe exclusively
strongas has subsequently been made out? orchestra.
No. I was interestedin Webernpiecesin 1945, has been appointedartisticdirectorof the
CharlesWadsworth
but I already had certainreservations when I newChamberMusic Societyof LincolnCentre,New York.
listenedto and studiedop 21 and op 24. I was very
impressedbut saw also thelimitsof thatand the Sir JohnBarbirollihas been awardedthe 1969 Gustav Mahler
immediate ofacademicism
possibility inthat.To my prizeforservicesto Austrianmusic.
David Oistrakhis to be awardeda CambridgeMusD in Juue;
opinionthemostflourishing worksare stillthoseof been made an honoraryprofessorat Budapest
he has recently
thebeginning, andI thinkthepeakofWebernis the Academyof Music.
op 9 Bagatellesforstringquartet.That'sreallyhis CatherineCollard won the Messiaen piano competitionat
mostextraordinary work. Because he brokethe Royan; therewas no second prize,but thirdand fourthwere
formcompletely and had a freeform,thelanguage won by Marie-C6cileMilan and RodneySmith.
is verywell organizedbothlocallyand generally
(althoughon a smallscale). Froman aesthetic point JennyHill (soprano),DennisLee (piano),TerenceSharpe(bass-
baritone)have been awardedGulbenkianFellowshipsof ?800
of viewthatbroughtus something quitenew. For fortwoyears.
me it's like the periodof the treesof Mondrian
whereyou have theplus and minussigns. It's an Claire Livingstonewas awarded 1st prize in the finalsof the
extraordinary period. Maybe it was necessaryto Count Cinzano Opera Scholarship;Linda Gray won the 2nd
was prize; Rosalind McInnes and RaymondWyliewere awarded
give some moregenerallaws, but something prizesof ?100 each.
lostin thediscovery.
JoyPresswood(New Zealand), and MelodyWu (Hong Kong)
was writtenin 1952;
1Infactthefinalversionof Kontrapunkte have been awarded AssociatedBoard Scholarshipsfor three
it was publishedin 1953. years'studyin London; theyare bothpianists.

The Vienna
SCHOENBERG
Sextet 'VerklaerteNacht', op 4 18s 9d
Pelleas and Melisande, op 5 35s Od
21s Od

School
StringQuartetNo 1, D minor,op 7
ChamberSymphony,op 9 35s Od
StringQuartetNo 2, F minor,op 10 15s 6d
Erwartung,op 17 51s Od
PierrotLunaire, op 21 28s Od
in

E~J
BERG
Wozzeck, completeopera, E.G. 152s Od
Lulu, completeopera, G. 175s Od
Der Wein 18s 6d
Five Songs, op 4 12s 9d
Three Pieces fromWozzeck 26s Od
Lulu Suite 42s Od

WEBERN
Passacaglia, op 1 14s Od
5 Movementsfor StringQuartet,op 5 7s Od
further details available from
6 Pieces for Orchestra,op 6 10s 6d
UNIVERSALEDITION 6 Pieces forOrchestra,op 6 (original version 1909)
(Alfred A. Kalmus Ltd) 10s 6d
2-3 Fareham St (Dean St) 6 Bagatelles for StringQuartet,op 9 5s 3d
5 Pieces for Orchestra,op 10 7s Od
London W1V 4DU

476

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