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What is This?
T.: I guess that tells me I shouldn't be in ERIC: Therapists need to look for new
ITAA. energy sources, both for themselves and for
ERIC: Not necessarily. You're a psycholo- their patients. They need to stop being so
gist. You're looking to the future and to dogmatic in their thinking and look beyond
how psychology can be helpful to the world present horizons. They need to search for
as well as to individuals. As long as you new ways. Dr. Freud agrees with me on
will be a researcher, you can contribute this.
much. This you need to do to get people I've learned a lot since joining the spirit
who are now in IT AA off dead-center. world. I've had many helpful discussions
T.: What do you think about the future with Dr. Freud and Dr. Jung. All of us
of transactional analysis? here are doing our best to direct certain
ERIC: Remember, I was an experi- people in pushing psychology into what is
menter. I was a rebel-so much so that I being known as parapsychology and holistic
was never certified as a psychoanalyst. I medicine. I'm impressed that you are seek-
really wanted to be. Freud didn't want me ing information from a psychic and study-
to be, he tells me now. He encouraged my ing the occult world as to how this might
rebellion so that some new psychological improve mental health in the future.
findings could be developed. Had I become And so, I don't really know if this was
a psychoanalyst, I might not have pursued truly a conversation with Eric Berne, or a
transactional analysis as I did. dialogue between my conscious and my
The group that was with me in the early subconscious or merely a product of my
days of the San Francisco Social Psychiatry imagination. But it has given me food for
worked on theoretical issues. We argued. thought, and it is moving me to expand
In fact, we verbally fought over ideas. traditional transactional analysis. I would
People don't do that now. They fight each hope that the impetus is also given to other
other on a personal basis, not on the basis TA scholars and researchers to move the
of ideas to improve TA. field ahead.
No one is doing anything to further
the field of psychology. Everyone in IT AA Thomas C. Clary, PhD, SFTM, is
seems to be just recycling what we did President of The Clary Institute in Wash-
before I passed over. They aren't coming ington, D. C.
up with any new ideas. For the most part, REFERENCES
many in TA are building walls so that Berne, E. Intuition and ego states. San Francisco,
what I wrote is dogma. Everything written California: TA Press, 1977, (a)4, (b)6.
about TA today just builds on what I lames, M., & Savary, L.M. The power at the bottom
wrote. Muriel James is an exception. I ofthe well. New York: Harper and Row, 1974.
wish she'd do more on her "power within." lung, C.G. Man and his symbols. Garden City, New
York: Doubleday and Company, Inc., 1964, (a)37-
I wasn't a very spiritual person when I was 38, (b)33, (c)75-76, (d)103, (e)61, (f)92.
working on TA. It's necessary to expand Leichtman, R.R. From heaven to earth: Jung and
beyond the personality. Freud return. Columbus, Ohio: Ariel Press, 1979,
T.: Then what are you suggesting? (a)32, (b)33, (c)47, (d)66, (e)75.