Analysis of MKULTRA, 1977 Joint Hearing (Part 8)

by Dr. Jeffrey Russell, PhD

[First Round of Questioning by Senator Wallop]

Wallop: Admiral Turner, not all of the projects under MKULTRA are of a sinister or even a moral nature. Is
that a fair statement?
Turner: That is correct.
Wallop: Looking at some of these 17 projects not involving human testing, it doesn’t seem very sinister.
These things are still of interest to the process of intelligence gathering?
Turner: Yes, sir. I have not tried to indicate that we either are not doing or would not do any of the things
that were involved in MKULTRA, but witting or unwitting testing of people with drugs, that is certainly
verboten.
Wallop: Even with volunteer patients? I mean, it is common practice to use prisoners for some kinds of
testing.
Turner: My understanding is that it is authorized, but I am of the opinion this is not the CIA’s business. If
we need information in this category, I would prefer that other Agencies within the government secure that
for us.
Wallop: So, the bulk of these projects the Agency would not be doing now. POTUS would not have been
horrified by the legitimate projects. Isn’t that probably the case?
Turner: Yes, sir.
Wallop: Is there any reason to suppose that POTUS did not know about MKULTRA?
Turner: No.
Wallop: Well, you know, I just cannot imagine anyone undertaking projects of this magnitude and POTUS
not being informed.
Turner: I find it difficult when it is that far back to hypothesize what the procedures were in place at that
time. It is quite a different climate today.
Wallop: I think it is naïve for us to suppose that this happened without knowledge of POTUS during those
times. This was vital information to the United States.
Turner: I’m sorry. What exactly are you asking?
Wallop: Well, your implication was that MKULTRA was a response to the kinds of behavior seen in Cardinal
Mindszenty’s trial (He was the leader of Catholic Church in Hungary and was convicted for treason).
Somebody must have thought this was an important defensive reaction.
Turner: Yes, sir, I am sure they did, but again I don’t know for sure.
Wallop: But this kind of information is still important to you.
Turner: Absolutely, and we would be very concerned if we thought our agents were exposed to truth
serums of other drugs by other powers.
Wallop: Are there such serums?
Turner: I don’t know of them if there are. I would have to answer that for the record, sir. [Note: This is a
long submission by Admiral Turner and is analyzed in Part 9 of this series.]
Wallop: I would appreciate that. If there are, I would assume you would try to protect our people from that
kind of activity.
Turner: Yes.
Wallop: Thank you very much.
[End of First Round of Questioning by Senator Wallop]