Greek Tragedy, Star Wars, and Why Kylo's Story Is Needed - Starwarsspeculation

1/17/2018 Greek Tragedy, Star Wars, and Why Kylo's Story is Needed : starwarsspeculation
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Greek Tragedy, Star Wars,
61 and Why Kylo's Story is
Needed Discussion
self.starwarsspeculation
submitted 12 months ago * by _lll_lll
I recently came across this

analysis written by someone
on Tumblr from April 2016
who has since removed their
main account and original
post. I thought it was still
worth a look so I'm pasting it
all below.
Click to read TL;DR
I was a little trepidatious

about covering the topic
username
since it’s sensitive. I am not
being flippant by connecting password
this to Star Wars. I promise.
Bear with me. Works remember me reset password LOGIN
referenced sprinkled
throughout.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/5osihh/greek_tragedy_star_wars_and_why_kylos_story_is/ 1/26
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Moral Injury MESSAGE THE MODERATORS
Moral Injury is related to, but

MODERATORS
distinct from, PTSD. A
morally injurious event is a
cloudxen
transgression which “hatters
moral and ethical geltoid
expectations that are rooted
in religious or spiritual JediHedwig
VulpeculaVincere
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based rules about fairness, about moderation team »
the value of life, and so

forth.” (x). They are
< > discussions in r/starwarsspeculation X
perceived by the actors as
gross moral violations. Not 94 · 20 comments
I think it would be cool to see some
every soldier who kills in war decommissioned battle droids left over
(or participates in killing or from the clone wars in Episode IX. Maybe
other acts many would find

transgressive) will
experience moral injury. But
a significant portion will.
This is extremely taboo to
say. An article in a prominent
political journal rebutted
Kudo was titled “A Morally
Confused Marine.” I will not
link to or quote it here.
Timothy Kudo’s experience
challenges a couple of very
dearly held and nigh-taboo-
to-question modern beliefs.
First, that if we kill in the
context of a moral war (if
there is such a thing) it will
protect us from feeling
violated by killing. And
second, that we have
absolute free will. That is,
regardless of the situation,
there is a right choice. There
is a best choice. And that we
will always have the
resources to make it.
—
The Ancient Greek

Conception of Evil and
Choice
This is not what the Greeks

believed. The Greeks had a
blended idea of free will and
fate. Plato explained it as an
arrow. We have the ability to
aim the arrow. We can make
the choice when to fire it,
how to aim it. But once it is in
the air, it is not in our control.
They believed we had a
nature. An acorn does not
become an elephant, it
becomes an oak tree. We
develop into our own
fullness, but along a course.
And over time, our actions
mold us (which is where we

get the word character, from
the Greek for engraving).
We have swung very far in
the direction of free will, and
of a free will idea of sin. The
Greeks believed evil was a
thing you could do, but it was
also a thing that could
contaminate you and prevent
you from being what you
were meant to be. Moral
injury, as it is perceived, is
more like that. It is more like
a disease. It feels like being
tainted.
(work referenced)
—
Tragedy as Ritual
After decades of constant

war (in which most adult
males participated), the
Greeks had a clear
understanding of what war
did to the people in it, and
they had a medicine for it:
the spring Festival, the
central ritual of which was a
tragedy. The most prominent
tragic playwright was
Sophocles, a general, and he
wrote for his men. To give
you a sense of scale:
[PHOTO]
You were not considered an
adult man unless you had
attended this festival. A third
of the population went to
each performance.
This was not just
entertainment. This was
designed for mass mourning.
This was meant to portray
what happens, without
judgment, without sugar-
coating. Without trying to

enforce “this should not
happen” onto anything. This
was a reflection of what does
and did happen.
Viewing a tragedy with a third
of your city in this mass
spectacle meant you saw
your experience reflected on
stage, and you mourned for
it, and you did that with
everyone you knew. You
experienced catharsis. That
word has changed to
something else, but in the
Greek, it was feeling your
emotions in a safe setting,
feel connected with others,
and they would lose their
negative hold on you.
Nobody had to tell you you
were not alone.
You were not alone. That
was and is important. That is
what drama can do and be in
people’s lives.
—
Moral Injury Outside of

War
My own editorializing:
(referring to the writer, not
me u/_lll_lll)
I personally believe moral
injury applies outside of the
context of war. Suffice to say,
I know this applies outside of
soldiers from personal
experience.
I believe this idea applies to
victims of abuse, neglect,
mental illness, and
oppression. Anyone who has
been put in a situation with
no right answers, who must
survive, may have done

things they are not proud of.
There’s a lot of shame
around that. We cannot talk
about it, because admitting to
it is like admitting being
tainted. It feels like it invites
blame from people who want
to believe bad things happen
to bad people. What one has
to do to survive is beyond
taboo to talk about.
I do not mean to take the
spotlight away from soldiers.
I want to emphasize if you’ve
felt this, your experience is
more common than you
might think.
The only place the taboo is,
almost, lifted is in art. Art,
especially theater, lets us
have a communal
experience. Lets us portray
without judging. Lets us feel
compassion and pity without
excusing. It lets groups of
people who feel immensely
isolated and unable to
express their experience feel
like they are not alone.
—
Kylo Ren as Tragic

Protagonist
Maybe the mythology

Americans are best versed in
is Star Wars. We don’t have
any media a third of
everyone holds in common.
But Star Wars is pretty close.
There are elements of Greek
tragedy in the OT, especially
in Vader’s final scenes. But
you know who is a textbook
Greek tragic figure?
Kylo goddamn Ren. I am not

minimizing Rey or Finn’s
role; they remain the
protagonist and
deuteragonist of the movie
respectively. But his arc is
still classic Greek tragedy in
structure.
How do I know? Let’s break
out motherfucking Aristotle’s
Poetics (or a summary of it,
he’s a dense read):
The plot must be “a

whole,” with a
beginning, middle, and
end. The beginning,
called by modern
critics the incentive
moment, must start
the cause-and-effect
chain but not be
dependent on
anything outside the
compass of the play
(i.e., its causes are
downplayed but its
effects are stressed).
The middle, or climax,
must be caused by
earlier incidents and
itself cause the
incidents that follow it
(i.e., its causes and
effects are stressed).
The end, or resolution,
must be caused by the
preceding events but
not lead to other
incidents outside the
compass of the play
(i.e., its causes are
stressed but its effects
downplayed); the end
should therefore solve
or resolve the problem
created during the
incentive moment.
Aristotle calls the

cause-and-effect
chain leading from the
incentive moment to
the climax the “tying
up” (desis), in modern
terminology the
complication. He
therefore terms the
more rapid cause-and-
effect chain from the
climax to the
resolution the
“unravelling” (lusis), in
modern terminology
the *dénouement *.
The incentive moment is

the discussion with Vader’s
helmet.
His driving conflict is that he
is not yet committed to the
darkness. Because his is a
complex tragedy (more on
that in a minute), he has two
climaxes, the bridge scene
and being defeated by Rey.
Aristotle stresses that
Tragedies should not be
episodic at their best.
However, I believe TFA’s plot
stands on its own sufficiently
to still qualify. He has a
complete arc within the film.
Complex Tragedy
Complex plots have

both “reversal of
intention” (peripeteia)
and “recognition”
(anagnorisis)
connected with the
catastrophe. Both
peripeteia and
anagnorisis turn upon
surprise. Aristotle
explains that a
peripeteia occurs
when a character
produces an effect
opposite to that which
he intended to
produce, while an
anagnorisis “is a
change from
ignorance to
knowledge, producing
love or hate between
the persons destined
for good or bad
fortune.” He argues
that the best plots
combine these two as
part of their cause-
and-effect chain (i.e.,
the peripeteia leads
directly to the
anagnorisis); this in
turns creates the
catastrophe, leading
to the final “scene of
suffering”
peripeteia:
exhibit 1
exhibit 2
exhibit 3
anagnorisis:
exhibit 1
exhibit 2
The catastrophe is his defeat

and his final scene of
suffering is being abandoned
in the snow to die.
He arouses both pity and
fear. The pity is widely
covered and causes much
fanboy and girl gnashing of

teeth. Seriously, you can’t
throw a rock without hitting
an article trying to solve this
as a tragedy by getting rid of
pity as an element. He’s not
really also pitiful. Or we’re
supposed to laugh at the
pitiful parts. Or we’re
supposed to think of him as a
school shooter or something.
Make no mistake: this is
people trying to worm their
way out of feelings, or out of
having to contemplate limited
free will. Actual fucking
Greek tragedies challenge
the taboo against challenging
absolute free will we
discussed above.
Anyway, but one of the turns
of his character arc, the
peripeteia, is an act of moral
injury. From the script:
Kylo Ren is somehow WEAK
horrified. His SHOCK is
Kylo Ren’s Roles
Kylo Ren is explicitly a

knight, a soldier. He is coded
as mentally ill (his room in
production was called “the
padded room”). Based on a
vivid description of Snoke’s
interaction with Ren in the
novel, he is coded as
groomed and abused. As
discussed above, I believe
those populations are
susceptible to moral injury.
And that is exactly who
seeing a person like Kylo
Ren portrayed can serve.
Maybe not everyone in that
group, or everyone who has
experienced moral injury. But

I think a lot of people.
—
Applying this to life
Kylo Ren serves a function. I

can only speak for myself, as
someone who has
experienced moral injury: It is
amazing to see someone like
Kylo Ren and know so many
people have also seen it and
felt what I feel.
Kylo Ren has helped me find
a community. Kylo Ren has
helped me say, publicly,
“there but for the fucking
grace of God go I.” I watch
Kylo Ren fuck up, and it is
cathartic. I watch Kylo Ren
and know someone fucking
gets it. I watch Kylo Ren and
hope someone like me has
the vocabulary to both avoid
his fate and have
compassion for him. By
having compassion for
him, I have compassion for
myself. He is not excused.
What he does is not
portrayed as a good thing.
Not even remotely.
But it is portrayed. It is not
solved, it is not made pretty,
it’s not made black or white.
It’s the truth, and we’re all
watching it together.
Does Driver know

about this?
Driver not only knows about

this, he narrated a book
about it, the dude who wrote
the book is on the board of
the charity Driver founded
with his wife, and the Charity
is about community for

soldiers through theater. In
case you were not convinced
this is a big deal to Driver.
If dude doesn’t know how
this applies to Star Wars it is
a hell of a fuckin’
coincidence. By the way,
donate to his charity.
Driver gets this. Not only
that, but he knows exactly
what this could mean to
some people. Isn’t that neat?
—
Wrapping it Up
Kylo Ren’s story as tragedy

is not only good writing and
acting, it is transcendent
writing. It is important. It is
worthwhile. It is supported by
the actual text of the movie
and by the stated intentions
of the actor with the
character. It is consistent with
his known interests outside
of it.
And it’s good. It’s very very
good. And given how hard
some people try to worm out
of it, it’s needed.
Miscellany
I see a lot of the Sophocles

tragedy Philoctetes in Luke
Skywalker. Philoctetes is left
on an island to rot after a
grave injury. He survives nine
years until an Oracle tells the
Greeks only he can save
them. But he is so
heartbroken (beyond
heartbroken) by being
abandoned to suffer with a
festering wound he cannot
return except by divine

intervention.
Read this post by
@oldadastra too.
— END OF THEIR
ANALYSIS —
Since this post was made
last year, there's been more
interviews shining a light on
Kylo as a character:
You will see more of

Kylo Ren's "humanity"
in Episode 8, Driver
says.
"There were a lot of plot

points that we knew
were operating in the
first one and that we get
to explain more in the
second one that make
the both of them make
sense."
"But they do kind of feel

socially active to me
too. George Lucas
originally... a lot of Star
Wars was in response
to Vietnam. What I
remember talking a lot
with JJ and Rian was
this idea of terrorism
and two sides being
morally justified to
behave however they
wanted to in order to get
what they thought was
absolutely correct."
From this interview: “I

feel like that character
[Kylo] makes sense to
me. The family dynamic
and desperately
wanting family to be
part of his life but not

getting it. The anxiety
and a lot of anger that
that creates and that
last a lifetime. When we
finished that I was like I
believe we made that
personal.”
In Adam Driver we trust.

Anyway, I'm looking forward
to people's thoughts on this.
The NYTimes also has a
great article about moral
injury as it relates to soldiers
today.
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[–]
AudobonPuzzle 13 points 12 months ago
This is fantastic. This is the closest I've seen

to my own personal view of how VIII should
be.
permalink embed save
[–]
MSG_ME_ANYTHING 10 points 12 months ago
I think that's a great analysis of his character

and the greater ST story. Someone else
posted an article the other day about the Solo
family being upended by a substantial tragedy,
and this to me just adds to it. Something
fucking terrible happened to that whole OT
family before TFA, and we got to see some of
the effects of that in movie. Here is hoping we

get see the causes in 8 and other media soon.
Thanks for posting this, this is speculation I
like reading.
[–]
ColtonCM Wayward Jedi 9 points 12 months ago
This is a pretty damn good post. To clarify, the

only part of your post after your initial
disclaimer is the section Moral Injuries Outside
of War correct?
I never understood the criticisms of Kylo's
character. "He's just a whiny brat, blah blah
blah, Vader was actually a villain, blah blah
blah."
Well yeah. Number one we were never led to
believe that Kylo is a fully formulated villain
yet, in fact we were told numerous times that
we would be witnessing the "making of a
villain."
Number two, after all the other ways TFA
mirrors ANH, why would you want a Vader-
clone? There's no emotional satisfaction in
that.
We've all been that whiny brat at some point.
Some of us more than others, but at least we
can relate.
Relating to Vader is hard until ROTJ. Few of
us possess the desire to form Empires, control
destiny, and destroy our enemies.
But all of us can relate to Kylo's struggle with
his identity and his terrible familial relations.
It's just good storytelling.
[–] OP _lll_lll [S] 3 points 12 months ago
No sorry, I should've clarified. My parts

are the stuff before and after the long
horizontal lines. That section you mention
is still their analysis. I'll edit my post to say
so. Thanks for pointing that out.
I'm glad you like it! There are a lot of
good, in-depth stuff like this outside reddit
which should be shared here too.
permalink embed save parent
[–] ColtonCM Wayward Jedi 1 point 12 months

ago
Ah okay, so literally the intro and

conclusion of the post are you, and
everything else is the OP? Got it.
[–]
petuniaCachalot 9 points 12 months ago*
Everyone is circling! Good job.

Edit: This is a good find and application to Ben
Solo's character. Also just important notions
for people in general.
[–]
Arturo273 7 points 12 months ago
Great post.
[–]
Ninjachado 3 points 12 months ago
I like the connections to tragedy and the tragic

hero, but the incentive moment of TFA isn't
Kylo's discussion with his helmet. Greek
tragedies usually open with their incentive
moment (think Electra which begins right after
a murder, or Oedipus who begins in the
middle of a plague)
Kylo's discussion happens too late in the play
to be your incentive act. The real incentive act,
the act that incenses everybody or drives
them to action, is the murder of the village
right at the top of the movie. The incentive
event needs to be one that every character
can trace their action back to, not just the
protagonist.
[–] Ninjachado 3 points 12 months ago
Also, since the end has to address the

incentive moment in Greek Tragedy, in
this case, it again can't be the helmet
speech. That issue is not actually
resolved on the bridge or in his loss to
Rey. It APPEARS to be solved when he
kills Han, but that struggle is not over

truly, and the Greeks are all about things
having to be actually resolved, not just
SEEMINGLY resolved.
The map to Luke, however, which is being
hunted in the opening scene, is revealed
and followed by the end of the film. Thus,
it CAN and does serve as the incentive
incident for this tragedy.
[–] branperkins1213 Reyincarnation Acolyte 8

points 12 months ago
I see your point, but at the same time

it doesn't need to be fully resolved
yet. OP stated that he thinks this set
up will be for the whole trilogy but he
thinks it also happens in VII. So I
think the incentive moment is the
helmet and killing Han almost
resolves it, but he still needs the next
two movies. I also think that this
whole movie is the incentive moment
for the trilogy. First its to fully go dark,
then its to find Luke, then its to find
and kill Rey (all of which can be
resolved in the next movies).
If we're saying its set up as a

Greek Tragedy it does. The story
of Electra is told in three parts,
and there is a narrative arc over
all three, but the incentive
incident is different for each play
and the arc of each play is
resolved. I get that we may not
be fully following to the letter of
greek tragedy, so thats a weak
point. But again Greeks didnt
"pretend" stuff got resolved. It
did or did not.
But the first point still remains.
The incentive incident has to be
an event every character of the
play responds to, or at least
most do. Kylo is the only one
who even knows the chat to the

helmet happens, and nobidy
else mentions or reacts to it.
I'll repeat because its true, the
event that sets everything in
motion for all characters is Poe
acquiring the map and the
massacre of that village.
[–] branperkins1213
Reyincarnation Acolyte 1 point
12 months ago
I would again argue that

Poe finding the map could
be the incentive incident for
The Force Awakens,
however the incentive
incident for the trilogy as a
whole is Rey defeating Kylo.
It shows Kylo he's weak and
that he still needs to
submerge himself in the
dark, it shows Rey how
powerful she is in a whole
new world, it almost kills
Finn, it pissed Snoke off,
and it will have a profound
effect of Luke once he finds
out.
parent
[–] WholeWheatMorty 3 points 12 months ago
Lor San Tekka: You may try, but you

cannot deny the truth that is your
family
Dialogue is not an action. It

cannot be an incentive incident
because dialogue is not an
incident. If we're truly hearkening
to greek tragedy the incident is
an event that everyone responds
to. Again this line fails for two
reasons, the first being its

commentary not action, and the
second being that it is only
applicable to Kylo and not the
entire story.
[–] OP _lll_lll [S] 2 points 12 months ago
That's an interesting observation. I'm not

the writer and I admit I'm rusty with those
concepts myself, so I'm not in any
position to argue for or against it. From
what you've said though, that does
indeed seem more like the incentive
moment.
[–]
tantra129 2 points 12 months ago
Great post.
[–]
[deleted] 12 months ago
[deleted]
[–] OP _lll_lll [S] 7 points 12 months ago*
Okay, here is your TL;DR. I know it's still

a lot but I'm just happy I got 2300 words
down to 300.
Moral injury: "The damage done to

one's conscience/moral compass
when that person perpetrates,
witnesses, or fails to prevent acts
that transgress their own moral and
ethical values or codes of conduct."
Most commonly experienced by
veterans who have difficulty
reconciling themselves as the "good"
person they once were after
committing atrocities, leading many
to take their own life.
It's taboo to admit to these kinds of

feelings in modern society. The
commonly held belief is that we have
absolute free will—in every situation
or conflict, there is always a right
choice. That soldiers shouldn't feel
bad about doing the "right thing" for
their cause.
In contrast, the Greeks had a

blended idea of free will and fate.
War-torn Greece held large festivals
where they watched tragic plays
(Ajax - Sophocles) together as a
form of catharsis. This was a rite of
passage for young men who grew to
become soldiers. It was a way of
mourning and allowed everyone to
properly acknowledge their own
pain/loss/shame, same as those
depicted in the plays.
Art and films like Star Wars act as

our own form of this: it lets us
portray without judging, feel
compassion/pity without excusing,
and lets groups of people who feel
isolated feel like they're not alone.
Kylo’s arc follows the structure of a

classic Greek tragedy. Like all tragic
heroes, he incites both pity and fear.
Many feel very strongly against
feeling pity for him, reducing his
character to simply that of a
monster, despite being coded as
mentally ill and as being
groomed/abused—the kind of
people most susceptible to moral
injury. Watching Kylo fuck up and
struggle is cathartic.
Adam Driver who plays Kylo is

deeply aware of these things. He's
done lots of work with those in the
armed force and has said that after
being discharged from the marines,
acting is what taught him how to
express himself and open up. He

cares about what Kylo will mean to
those watching and to those who
identify with him. His story is
needed.
[–] branperkins1213 Reyincarnation Acolyte 7 points

12 months ago*
He shouldn't need to write one. This post

is amazing and every word needs to be
read
[–] OP _lll_lll [S] 1 point 12 months ago
Funny you say that, I'm actually

struggling with how to compress this
whole thing down into a few bullet
points. I'll try my best...
[–]
TotesMessenger 1 point 12 months ago
I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to

this thread from another place on reddit:
[/r/starwars] Greek Tragedy, Star Wars,

and Why Kylo's Story is Needed
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[–]
parduscat 1 point 12 months ago
Good post. I have to say though, as soon as

Kyle took off his helmet to reveal Driver's face
I knew that there would be a thousand and
one Tumblr posts trying to excuse Kylo for his
actions.
[–] OP _lll_lll [S] 1 point 12 months ago*
There actually seems to be just as many

(if not more maybe) Tumblr posts saying
the opposite, that Kylo deserves to die
after killing Han, etc. It's clearly a very
divisive subject.
If the writers really didn't want us feeling
even a little sorry for him, they could have
easily had him keep his mask on
throughout the whole thing so that Kylo
remained monstrous, cold, and
unsympathetic in our eyes, just like Maul
and Vader. But they very deliberately
showed that other side of him early on.
[–] parduscat 1 point 12 months ago
Idk, on the one hand I know a Kylo

redemption is in the cards. But on the
other hand, we see so many
redemption storylines that I think the
bolder storytelling choice is to not
redeem Kylo. Does it really matter
why Kylo went school shooter on his
Jedi classmates? I think of Kylo the
same way Revan thinks about Malak
in KOTOR, "I am sorry I led you
down the path to the Dark Side, but
you chose to continue down it.".
Sometimes you can't fix things.
[–] OP _lll_lll [S] 4 points 12 months

ago*
To not have Kylo redeemed in

some way (even through death)
would go against the core of
what Star Wars is about: love. I
can feel you rolling your eyes but
it's true. That's what drives the
entire overarching conflict of
both trilogies.
Even though it's predictable, one
has to remember that George
was always trying to tell a fairy
tale with a clear lesson to
children watching—everyone, no
matter how bad, deserves a
second chance and we're all
capable of good, no matter how

terribly we've fucked up.
It would also be a disservice to
Leia and Han's legacy if their
son couldn't come back home.
That's even more vital now that
Carrie's gone.
They'll want to properly honor
Leia and the sacrifices she's
gone through throughout the
whole saga: tortured by Vader,
home planet destroyed along
with her parents, her reputation
in the senate tarnished
(Bloodline), her husband killed...
after everything, she deserves to
have her one wish: getting her
son back.
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COMMENTS OTHER DISCUSSIONS (1) LOG IN OR SIGN UP IN SECONDS.

I recently came across this

I was a little trepidatious

forget what happened, ► NO Blogspam!

are dead. ► Single-image posts without Speculation will be

► No trolling, hate, or flame bait.

tens of thousands of ► Try to back up theories with evidence! Don't just

And yet the story is as r/StarWarsLeaks: Star Wars Leaks

Veterans Affairs study, r/StarWarsCollecting: Collecting Star Wars

day. That’s almost one r/KrullMemes: KRULL MEMES

Moral Injury MESSAGE THE MODERATORS

Moral Injury is related to, but

the value of life, and so

other acts many would find

The Ancient Greek

This is not what the Greeks

mold us (which is where we

After decades of constant

coating. Without trying to

Moral Injury Outside of

survive, may have done

Kylo Ren as Tragic

Maybe the mythology

Kylo goddamn Ren. I am not

The plot must be “a

Aristotle calls the

The incentive moment is

Complex plots have

The catastrophe is his defeat

fanboy and girl gnashing of

Kylo Ren’s Roles

Kylo Ren is explicitly a

experienced moral injury. But

Applying this to life

Kylo Ren serves a function. I

Does Driver know

Driver not only knows about

is about community for

Kylo Ren’s story as tragedy

I see a lot of the Sophocles

return except by divine

You will see more of

"There were a lot of plot

"But they do kind of feel

From this interview: “I

part of his life but not

In Adam Driver we trust.

24 comments share save hide

WANT TO ADD TO THE

AudobonPuzzle 13 points 12 months ago

This is fantastic. This is the closest I've seen

I think that's a great analysis of his character

the effects of that in movie. Here is hoping we

This is a pretty damn good post. To clarify, the

[–] OP _lll_lll [S] 3 points 12 months ago

No sorry, I should've clarified. My parts

[–] ColtonCM Wayward Jedi 1 point 12 months

Ah okay, so literally the intro and

Everyone is circling! Good job.

Arturo273 7 points 12 months ago

I like the connections to tragedy and the tragic

[–] Ninjachado 3 points 12 months ago