Kuang Ping Style and Kung Fu Details

Tai Ji Quan Philosopy - The 13 Postures
by Dr. G. S. Torres
Peng
(Péng)
They say in Tai Ji Quan that 4 ounces deflects 10,000 pounds. How can this be so
? First, you must have "Peng." Peng is why the Xing Yi Quan practitioners do the
standing meditations of I Chuan (Yi Quan). The great Grand Master Guo Lien Ying
would often be seen "standing" in the "Universal Post" position. Below are the
nine points that Grand Master Kwok taught to do while doing I Chuan, Universal P
ost or Ta Ji Quan forms.
Ba Mén/Ba Jìn
Eight Gates or Eight Energys(Strengths)
The chief energies/strengths are the 4 primary hands or primary directions and t
he four corner hands or four diagonal directions are for assistance. The four pr
imary hands are the basic rule and the four corner hands are the alternatives.
The four primary hands (four cardinal directions)
1. 1. Peng Jin (outward) - Ward off, Tai Chi's essential energy, power of fle
xibility and resilience (born in the thighs), energy of defensive attack, under
opponents hand. Attack. Evading is to attack. Yang or hard.
2. Lu Jin (inward) - Pull or Roll-back, Péng in reverse energy - energy of fr
iction and rubbing, evade and adhere. Over opponents hand. Defense. Evading is t
o attack. Yin or soft. (Peng changes to Lu is the inward drawing of silk, and Lu
changes to Peng is the outward drawing of silk. These are the two basic energie
s/strengths of Tai Chi.)
3. Ji Jin (outward) - Press, two hands when they are joined. Energy of two fo
rces combined, when there’s not enough peng jin. Two energies combined as one, e
nergy of dexterity. Adhering is to attack.
4. An Jin (inward) - Push, Listening energy, single and double finger / palm.
Lower peng jin, used in sinking, creating pull force. The posture of an looks a
s if one is preparing to push one or both hands. An from the front = peng jìn, A
n from the left or right = lu jìn, An combined = ji jin.
5. The four corner hands (four diagonal directions) Cai Jin - Roll-pull, reve
rse of ji jìn, incline downward towards the rear. Energy of two forces divided.
Here use fingers for Tai Chi Chin Na techniques. Like picking fruit, one hand gr
abs branch down and other grabs fruit. Outside hand is peng and below hand/grabb
ing is cai. Don’t use cai horizontally toward the back, it must incline downward
toward the back. Use cai on only one of the opponents arms, not both.
6. Lie Jin - Split, Tai Chi s small strike energy. Begins quickly a few inche
s from opponent. Energy of striking (first line of defense). When lie is used by
one hand the other hand must have inside drawing of silk energy to keep the bod
y in balance. The hands can mutually interchange their use. Lie is used to draw
silk outward toward the opponent when you are very close. This strike can t stop
half way you re committed, so strike quickly and very close the body.
7. Zhou Jin - Elbow strike by moving the arms up & down (Lie s second line of
defense). After you over extend yourself and cai and lie won t work, now use zh
ou, elbow strike after wrist or from wrist.
8. Kao Jìn - Shoulder strike. Used in a slanting direction, a strike by the w
hole body, body strike (Lie s third line of defense). Again used after over exte
nding yourself. Shoulder strike kao, knee strike kao, stomach strike kào, back s
trike kào. Kào is used when the hands and feet are tied up.
* Peng drawn inside = Lu, Peng combined = Ji, Peng drawn down = An, Peng div
ided = Cai, Peng followed by a strike = Lie, Peng turning and elbow striking = Z
hou, and Peng turning and body striking = Kao.
The twelve rules for developing Peng From Guo
1. Keep the body centered
2. Sink the shoulders
3. Sink the elbows
4. Keep the wrists straight
5. Keep the butt tucked in
6. Keep the knees bent
7. Step light (empty step)
8. Feet must be empty and solid
9. Top of the head turns
10. The back rotates
11. Waist (tight) connected not slanted
12. Lower belly rises
* First point: 2 arms connect above elbow and below shoulder
* Second point: 2 thighs follow each other
* Third point: Back bow collects energy at the chest (chest is neither conca
ve nor convex).
The Nine rules for developing Péng From Kwok
1. Crown as if suspended from a thread
2. Eyes looking into the distance (eye level)
3. Ears listening inward
4. Tongue to the roof of the mouth
5. Head as if balanced on a pin
6. Neck and back straight (up and down)
7. Sink the chest, raise the back
8. Abdominal breathing
9. Drop the pelvis
Wu Fang
Five Directions
1. Forward (metal)
2. Backward (wood)
3. Step Left (water)
4. Step Right (fire)
5. Center (earth)
14 Examples of Bu (stances or steps)
1. Breaking Step - like Tai Chi stance, used to half step and twist so ½ step
and you can sink then twist (toes come up) then make contact and toes go down,
then strike. Frontal attack.
2. Backward Step - step back with toes then rest of foot (step back repulse m
onkey).
3. Rolling Step - when the foot turns as a result of following the body. The
sole of the foot creates friction. Foundation of Neutralizing energy.
4. Rising Step - going to a rooster stance, knee kick.
5. Sinking Step - stepping down with foot from a rooster stance.
6. Withdrawal Step - stepping to the side, from inside to outside.
7. Collecting Step - stepping from the outside to the inside.
8. Curved Step - outside step forward for attack or defense.
9. Slanting Step - stepping diagonal to left or right.
10. Horse Step - horse stance, L stance, has double sinking step.
11. Fishing Step - horse step to the side where the hand and thigh help each o
ther, cloud hands.
12. Empty Step - Empty stance while top of body rises and inside receives (lif
t the plams).
13. Turn the Body Over Step - putting spine in position to twist for a strike.
14. Pushing Step - front foot advances and the rear foot follows (forward step
ping and leaping forward).
* Note Step 1 & 3 (Breaking and Rolling) are the Foundation of Tai Chi Foot
Work.© 2000
Xiao Jiu Tian or Little Universe Cycle
Another postural point is to touch the tip of the tongue to the roof of the mout
h. This is called closing the gap in the Xiao Jiu Tian or Little Universe Cycle.
This cycle is the conception vessel in the front of the body and the Governing
Vessel in the back of the body which connect at GV1 (Long Strength) and CV1 (Mee
ting of Yin). Both end up at the mouth where they don t touch, hence the tongue
touching the roof of the mouth closes the loop at GV27 (Correct Exchange) and CV
24 (Receiving Fluid).
Tai Ji Quan Hand Positions
Mainly speaking, there are only four hand positions widely used in Tai Ji Quan,
three are depicted below, the hook, fist and tai ji palm. The fourth would only
be used while wielding a jien or double edge sword often called a tai ji sword.
Parts of the Fist: 1. Back, 2. Face, 3. Heart, 4. Eye, 5. Heel.
Parts of the Tai Chi Palm: 1. Back, 2. Heart, 3. Tip, 4. Edge.
Parts of the Hook: 1. Back, 2. Face, 3. Heart, 4. Tip.
Tai Ji Quan Eight Basic Stances Positions
* Tai Chi Quan Bow and Arrow
* Tai Chi Quan Horse Stance
* Tai Chi Quan L or Half Horse
* Tai Chi Quan High Lotus
* Tai Chi Quan Empty
* Tai Chi Quan Tiger
* Tai Chi Quan Rooster
* Tai Chi Quan Tai Chi Stance
Jian Hua Tai Ji Quan

(Tai Chi Chuan Short Form)
In 1956 the Chinese government issued a simplified set of tai chi quan based on
the most popular sequences or moves of the Yang School. It consists of 24 moves
which progress from the easy to the difficult, and takes about 5 minutes to comp
lete.
The following are page was taken from the booklet on Tai Chi Chuan - Short Form
written by Grandmaster Torres. This page is part of the preface and is the names
of the moves.
1. Opening
2. Wild Horse Separating the Mane
3. White Crane Flapping The Wings
4. Brush The Knee, Twist the Step
5. Playing The Pi P ar
6. Step Back Repulse the Monkey
7. Grasp the Bird’s Tail (left and right)
8. Single Whip
9. Cloud Hands
10. Single Whip
11. Pat the Horse (High Pat on Horse)
12. Right Heel Kick
13. Double Wind Strikes the Temples
14. Left Heel Kick
15. Snake Creeping in the Grass (Low Single Whip)
16. Golden Rooster Standing
17. Snake Creeping in the Grass (Low Single Whip)
18. Golden Rooster Standing
19. Fairy Lady Weaving
20. Needle at the Bottom of the Sea
21. Fan Arm
22. Turn Around, Parry, Block, Punch
23. Close Like Shut
24. Cross Hands
Tai Ji Dao
Tai Chi Broad Sword Form
The following are pages was taken from the booklet on Tai Ji Dao (Tai Chi Broad
Sword Form).
The Tai ji family contains the fist, sword, saber/broad sword, spear, simple pus
h hands and big pull/stroke. Although all these exercises have distinguished sty
les, they all share one common characteristic, which is "bearing firmness in gen
tleness, needles hidden in cotton, and movements are continuous and nonstop."
The form described in this chapter, is fairly different from the traditional "Ta
i ji Thirteen Saber Play." Tai ji Saber is based on the attacking moves of tradi
tional short saber play, such as split, shop, intercept, stick up, swing up, pus
h, thrust, hold up, cut, wipe, hack, hang, carry, block and sweep, and combines
with Wu shu s unique steps, footwork and body movement to form a short weapon ex
ercise. It has attacking elements, but also has Tai ji s characteristics; gentle
, flexible and continuous.
Practicing the Tai Chi Broadsword or Saber, is the same as practicing fist or op
en hand forms. Therefore, it is also beneficial to one s nervous system, cardiov
ascular system, respiratory system, digestive system and metabolism in general.
In the meantime, "dance with saber" is more interesting to practice than being e
mpty handed.
Tai Ji Dao Exercise Method
1. When practicing the Tai ji saber, the head should not be slanted or facing
upward. Chin must be withdrawn, head held upright, as if it is carrying somethi
ng on top of the head, the so called "push against suspension" technique. Howeve
r one must avoid looking stiff simply because the head is held upright and the c
hin is withdrawn. Pay attention to loosening the neck muscles when holding the h
ead upright, the so called "empty collar top strength" technique. One must look
straight forward and should not look sideways during practice. The mouth natural
ly opens and closes. The tongue leans against the roof of the mouth. Breath out
through the mouth and breath in through the nose naturally.
2. When practicing the Tai ji saber, one s body must be straight, spine and t
ail bone must be straigh and not inclined. But, this does not mean that the body
is stiff and without any flexibility. During the practice, when the changes in
movement are encountered, the body must be able to change by bringing in the che
st, straightening the back, sinking the shoulders and turning the waist. It is s
aid, when encountered with opening and closing changes, the body should have the
flexibility of bringing in the chest, straightening of the back, sinking of the
shoulders and the turning of the waist. Beginners must pay attention to these,
otherwise, it will be difficult to correct later, and the body will become stiff
. You may exercise a lot, but it will be hard to take full advantage of what the
exercise has to offer.
3. When practicing Tai ji saber, joints and muscles on both arms should relax
. The shoulders should sink. The elbows kept hanging down and always bent to for
m an arc, palms are slightly open, fingers are straight and slightly bent.
4. When practicing Tai ji saber, the two legs must be able to distinguish emp
tiness from solidness. When the weight falls on the left leg, the left leg is so
lid, while the right leg is empty and just touching the floor, and vise versa. T
he so called emptiness does not mean "hollow." The strength still exists, and it
has the potential to stretch, withdraw and make changes. The so called solidnes
s does not mean over using force, it simply means "substantial." Therefore, when
bending knees to squat, you only need to squat slightly. If you do a half squat
, it is overusing force. In the meantime, half squatting causes the body to lean
forward, losing its straight up position, and therefore violating the "no leani
ng" rule.
5. When practicing Tai ji saber, stepping forward and backward must be perfor
med like a cat walking. Raise the foot quickly and drop the foot lightly. When k
icking, keep the bottom of your foot flat, toes pointing forward. But, do not ov
er tighten the foot. Tendons and muscles on the legs and foot should be relaxed.
Kicks should be released slowly.
6. When practicing Tai ji saber, silence must be maintained. Your mind must b
e focused, and attention be paid to every detail of the moves. Do not think abou
t other things when practicing, otherwise, the practice becomes casual, decreasi
ng the value of this exercise.
7. When practicing Tai ji saber, natural breathing is a must. Do not allow th
e movements to affect your natural breathing. Although like Tai ji fist, Tai ji
saber strives for deep breathing that reaches the "Dan Tian Point." Beginners do
not have to obey this rule, normal diaphragmatic breathing is suitable. You do
not need to practice rising and sinking of the diaphragm. Otherwise, if breathin
g becomes unnatural then moves become unnatural, making breathing and movement d
ifficult to coordinate with each other.
8. When practicing Tai ji saber, one must use round and flexible strength not
stiff strength and clumsy force. "Round and flexible strength" means when your
body and four limbs move naturally or in a standing position, relax those tendon
s, muscles and joint that may be relaxed to the maximum extent. But, the maximum
relaxation is not equal to slack, meaning to use minimum force to push movement
, in other words, to support the bones with the lowest level of tension of muscl
es.
9. When practicing Tai ji saber, movements must be complete and continuous. T
he body and four limbs movements follow each other and coordinate with each oth
er. Especially the coordination between the saber, hand method, and foot work, i
t should be harmonious and consistent, the so called "once one body part moves,
there are no parts that don t move." It must be avoided that hands are moving bu
t the feet are not or the saber is moving but the hand is not. In the mean time,
one move must follow the previous one, making the entire set of saber play a si
ngle movement from the opening to the closing posture. No stops are in between m
oves. Although sometimes a short pause is necessary, it is simply to slightly sl
ow down, not to completely stop.
10. When practicing Tai ji saber, one needs to be slow not fast. But "slow" do
es not mean "obtuse" or "overly gentle." Theses two problems need to be avoided.
In the mean time, speed should be maintained the same from the beginning to the
end. Do not be fast at one time and slow at another.
Tai Ji Jian
(Tai Chi Double Edge Sword Form)
The following are pages were taken from the booklet on Tai Ji Jian (Tai Chi Doub
le Edge Sword Form) written by Master Torres. The first page is part of the pref
ace and is the names of the moves writen in Grandmaster Peter Kwok s own hand. T
his is followed by material also found in the preface. The last page is page one
of the list of the names of the first 25 moves.
Tai Chi Quan
This set of sword is the original Tai Ji Sword Form. The movement is concise and
easy to practice. There are a total of 54 postures, including the opening and c
losing positions. It can be practiced to an eight count cadence and is suitable
for both individual and group practice.
The entire set can be divided into six sections each containing 8 major postures
. The entire set includes a variety of foot methods and sword methods, such as w
ithdraw, carry, swing. thrust, strike, hang, poke (tap), cut )split), intercept,
hold up, sweep, block, and wipe. Continuously practicing these postures may imp
rove your health and lay foundation for practicing other types of swordplay.
Basic Movements
1. Left Hand Sword Holding Method The left hand tightly holds the hand guard
with the thumb pointing downward, while the little finger, middle finger and the
third finger point upward. The index finger is straight and leans against the s
word handle. The sword leans against the back of the left forearm. Essentials: T
he sword must be held tight and the sword edge should not touch the body. Tai Ch
i Quan
2. Right Hand Sword Holding Method
1. Use the thumb and index finger to hold the handly tightly. The other
three fingers loosely hold the handle. Use the bottom joint of the thumb and ou
ter fringe of the palm to control the sword’s movements.
2. Hold the handle tightly with the middle finger, the third finger and
the thumb. The index finger and the little finger hold it loosely. Sometimes it
is necessary to increase the elasticity and flexibility of the sword s edge, th
e index finger needs to lean against the hand guard to control the precision of
the sword movement. This method is also called "holding the sword alive."
Essentials: How tight one should hold the handle is determined by one bein
g able to thrust the sword horizontally and split with the sword horizontally. T
ai Chi Quan
3. Sword Finger / Sword Hand Stretch the index and middle fingers, the third
and little fingers bend toward the center of the palm. The thumb then presses on
the nails of the third and little fingers. Tai Chi Quan
Shao Lin Quan Hand Positions

Mainly speaking, there are some of the hand positions widely used in Shao Lin Qu
an, six are depicted below, the Willow Leaf Palm, the Dragon Claw, Fist (vertica
l and horizontal), the Hook, and the Tiger Claw.
Shao Lin Quan Art Work: Guy Robinson of Atlanta, Georgia Willow Leaf Palm by Mar
ilyn Cooper
Parts of the Fist: 1. Back, 2. Face, 3. Heart, 4. Eye, 5. Heel.
Parts of the Willow Leaf Palm: 1. Back, 2. Heart, 3. Tip, 4. Edge.
Parts of the Hook: 1. Back, 2. Face, 3. Heart, 4. Tip.
Shao Lin Quan Eight Basic Stances
* Shao Lin Quan Bow and Arrow
* Shao Lin Quan Horse Stance
* Shao Lin Quan L or Half Horse
* Shao Lin Quan High Lotus
* Shao Lin Quan Empty
* Shao Lin Quan Tiger
* Shao Lin Quan Rooster
* Shao Lin Quan Lotus
Qin Na Dui Da/Chin Na

(Capture/Seize Two Man Fighting Form)
The following are pages taken from the booklet on Shao Lin Chuan - Chin Na Dui D
a/Qin Na Dui Da. This page is part of the preface and gives the backgound of the
two man form. The Chin Na Dui Da form is a two man set with six different roads
.
* Chin - (locking) the movement of joints against their normal range of moti
on.
* Na - (seizing) of the vital pints disrupting or blocking the energy flow.
* Chin Na Principles
1. based on joint structure
2. blood vessel network
3. acupuncture meridians (chi meridians)
* Applied Chin Na utilizes
1. strikes to and seizing of vital points
2. tendon grabbing
3. blood vessel grabbing
4. joint locks
* Chin Na has 4 main branches or components
1. kicking
2. striking
3. throwing
4. locking
* Bones
1. axial skeleton (head, vertebrae, ribs, pelvis)
2. appendicular skeleton (arms, forearms, wrist, hand, fingers, leg, lo
wer leg, ankle, foot.
Joints can withstand the pressure of compression, flexion, extension much better
than forces of rotation, therefore Chin Na techniques twist the joints to cause
greater pain and injury.
* Joint types
1. Immovable - fibrous and cartilaginous
2. Movable - have joint space filled with synovial fluid, cartilaginous
ends and are freely movable but held in place by ligaments. Chin Na injure liga
ments.
* Types of movable joints
1. Ball and socket (shoulder)
2. hinge (elbow)
3. saddle (thumb)
4. ellipsoid and gliding (wrist)
5. and pivotal (neck)
Movable joints are traversed by blood vessels and nerves, and if twisted in the
right fashion will interrupt the integrity of these structures causing additiona
l pain and injury.
* Coupling motion - refers to the locking of a joint making that limb a leve
r for the next joint.
* Reactive motion - refers to the resultant motion or action caused in respo
nse to the locking of a joint.
* Golden Silk Entwines the Wrist - in an anchored wrist grab the fingers are
force over the wrist and down. This is countered by upward piercing of the divi
ne lock.
Qiang Shu
(Spear Play Skill Form)
The following are pages taken from the booklet on Shao Lin Chuan Group A Spear S
kills Picture Illustration Spear Form (Jia Zu Qiang Shù Tú Jie). The first page
is from the forward, the second page is page one of the list of move names, and
the last page is page one of the illusstrated form, the preparatory moves and mo
ves 1, 2 and 3 of Secton One.
Jia Zu Qiang Shù Tu Jie
Group A Spear Skills Picture Illustration Spear Form
The traditional Chinese Martial Arts (Wu Shu), after going through continuous de
velopment, has become a sport that is liked by the public. At present, the numbe
r of people who participate in the Wu Shu sport is increasing nationwide everyda
y. Their technical skills have also been rapidly developed and improved. In orde
r to meet the demand of readers who study Wu Shu, we have transcribed this set o
r form "Spear Form Basic Training Study Book," for general learners to use as a
reference.
While compiling this set or form, the authors of the set have adopted traditiona
l techniques of a variety of Wh Shu styles, as well as innovative techniques. Al
though all Wu Shu routines are based on jumps, balance, foot position, leg movem
ent, rolling, turns, hand position, eye position, body movement, footwork, and s
trength, different routines have different technical requirements, and each rout
ine has its own style and characteristic in terms of its movement, therefore pos
ing different requirements for different exercises. For example, sword play chan
ges rapidly, precise, light and quick; while spear play involves expansive movem
ents, a lot of changes, a high level of difficulty and detailed requirements, et
c. Correctly practicing various routines concurrently makes Wu Shu more valuable
in terms of body-building, because it impels the body to thoroughly develop.
The entire basic practice routines are divided into Group A and Group B. Group A
is more difficult and requires more vigorous movement. It is suitable to practi
ce for athletes that have reached a certain level of techniques. Group B s level
of difficulty and strength is comparable to traditional technical routines used
to improve overall technical skills. Due to lack of experience and our limited
knowledge in all aspects, mistakes are unavoidable. Reader are welcome to provi
de us with comments to allow us to improve ourselves in the future.
Opening Move (Preparatory Movements) Yu Bei Dong Zuo
* Preparatory form. Yù bèi shì.
* Push the spear down with feet together. Bìng bù xià tui quang.
* Flash the palm in Tiger Stance. Pu bù liàng zhang.
Section One
1. High Lotus and parry block thrust the spear in a Bow & Arrow. Cha bù lán n
á gong bù zhong píng zha qiang.
2. Swing leg and jump up, then parry block thrust the spear in a Bow & Arrow.
Gài tiào bù lán ná gong bù zhong píng zha qiang.
3. Single walking step, circle the spear. Gu xíng bù rào bhán qiang.
4. Jump up to High Lotus, then parry block thrust the spear in a Bow & Arrow.
Tiào Cha bù lán ná gong bù zhong píng zha qiang.
5. Tap the spear, with leg pressed behind the knee (Lazy Rooster Stance). Kòu
tui dian qiang.
6. Lift the knee to Rooster, parry downward with spear. Tí xi hào, xià bo qia
ng.
7. Step back, turn the body, then slash with spear in Low Inside Empty Stance
. Chè bù huí shen gen bù pi qiang.
8. Press the spear in Empty stance. Xu bù ya qiang.
9. Circle foot to Rooster stance and thrust the spear in Bow and Arrow. Rào s
hàng bù gong bù zhong píng zha qiang.
10. Dash spear in Empty stance. Xu bù beng qiang.
Section Two
11. Jump up, hold spear in Sitting Lotus Stance. Tiào xie bù bào qiang.
Long Feng Shuang Jian
(Dragon-Phoenix Twin Double Edge Swords)
The following are pages taken from the booklet on Shao Lin Chuan - Long Feng Shu
ang Jian (Dragon-Phoenix Twin Double Edge Swords). The first page is part of the
preface and gives the backgound of the form. The second page is from the list o
f move names from the form, and the third page is the opening move and first few
moves of the form itself.
This set of double swords is based on the Green-Dragon Double Swords of Cha Fist
and Plum-Blossom Double Swords of Six-Combination Fist. It was developed assimi
lating some of the moves from Ba Guà’s Dragon Double Swords, Cha Fist’s Forest-P
iercing Double Swords and Cao Fist’s Dragon Phoenix Double Swords.
Although it maintains the basic requirements of traditional swordplay with respe
ct to body movement, footwork, hand position, and eye movement, this set of swor
dplay has made adjustments in terms of which movements to adapt, and the sequenc
e of movements. One may say it combines the strong points of all styles and make
s itself a new set of double swordplay that not only inherits from the tradition
, but also is creative.
This set of double swordplay is suitable practice for people who have mastered t
he basics of fists. For the beginner, to make it more convenient to practice, on
e may make appropriate changes or select portions of the movement, based on the
individual’s situation, to ease the level of difficulty.
This set of double swordplay is named Dragon-Phoenix Double Swords because when
proficient, the practice looks agile, graceful, robust and gentle, like the flyi
ng dragon and the dancing phoenix.
Tai Chi Chuan - Barehand Form

Posture Names II
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Author Topic: Posture Names II
Audi
Regular Contributor posted 05-28-2001 01:43 PM Click Here to See the Pro
file for Audi Click Here to Email Audi Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I want to continue an exploration of posture names I began on an earlier thread
. Again I invite comment from anyone interested.
One thing I want to clarify is that I do not mean to offer disrespect to anyone
s choice of translation or interpretation in any particular instance. I know tha
t I myself am very inconsisent in my choice of words and spellings, because of t
he perceived convenience of the context.
Translation usually involves compromise between many different goals: staying wi
th the familiar, literal accuracy, aesthetics, consistency with other translatio
ns, etc. In my opinion, true translation of even simple phrases is impossible be
tween any but the most closely related languages. What is possible is to interpr
et the meaning of a phrase for a particular context.
Since deepening our knowledge of T ai Chi often involves close parsing of phrase
s or concepts originally expressed in Chinese, I find it helpful to engage in ex
ercises such as this one to tease out possible hidden meanings, implications, or
problems posed by some of the English nomenclature that is often chosen. In doi
ng so, I do not mean to suggest that any other choices are wrong, ignorant, or i
mproper, especially without knowing what purpose lies behind a particular transl
ation. Even more important is that the important aspects of T ai Chi are univers
al and not limited to the expression of any particular language.
Here are the new postures:
Bai2 He4 Liang4 Chi4 (White Crane Cools its wing(s))
I have also heard this posture referred to as "Crane Stands on Rock." Does anyon
e know the origin of this name?
You4/Zuo3 Lou1 Xi1 Ao3 Bu4 (Right/Left Brush Knee and Twist Step)
The "twist" in this posture name has long been a mystery to me linguistically an
d martially. The character rendered here as "ao3" seems to be fairly rare and to
have many variant pronunciations (e.g. yao3, ao4, and niu4). Moreover, I have y
et to find a dictionary that gives "twist" as a meaning. In the few cases where
I have found the character with this or a similar reading (e.g., Mathews’ Chines
e-English Dictionary), "break (off)" seems to be the closest meaning I can find.
Does anyone have an explanation?
When exactly does the "twist" occur in the movement and in what part of the body
? I used to think it was in the feet, but then realized there was no prior foot
pivot whenever the posture follows an Empty Stance (e.g., White Crane). Any idea
s?
Shou3 Hui1 Pi2 Pa (Hand Strums the Lute/Pipa)
I understand from the Yangs video that this posture differs from Lifting Hands
not only in reversing right and lift, but also in the angles of attack and the e
mblematic martial application. Can anyone confirm that the final postures are id
entical mirror images and that the hand shapes are the same? Are the "palm metho
ds" also identical, and what exactly are the proper hand and wrist shapes?
Jin4 Bu4 Ban1 Lan2 Chui2 (Step forward Deflect Parry and Punch)
Is there a difference between "Step forward" (Jin Bu) and "Step Up" (Shang bu)?
The phrase "step forward" seems to occur consistently before certain postures, a
nd "step up" in others. As far as I can tell these stepping techniques are ident
ical, but have always wondered if I was missing something, given the consistentl
y different terminology.
Depending on how one counts, this move has a minimum of four distinct arm techni
ques, yet only three terms: deflect, parry, and punch. The punch is fairly clear
. From other reading, I understand the Chinese term "lan" (usually translated in
this movement as "parry") to refer to obstructing and barring the opponent s mo
vements and so assume that refers to the left arm jamming an opponent s right ar
m into his or her body. What about the deflection (ban)? Is there truly a differ
ence between a "deflection" (ban) and a "parry" (lan)?
What I understand from the Yangs video is that the right arm does the "deflecti
on" and the "left" arm does the "parry." Does the right arm do two "deflections,
" one downward to the left after the left foot pivot and then another forward, d
ownward, and to the right (resembling a back fist) as one steps forward with the
right foot? I note that many translate this movement in a way that includes the
phrase "Deflect downward." Does this refer to the same two deflections, or just
one of them?
Ru2 Feng1 Si4 Bi4 (As if sealed (and) like closed)(Also translated as "Apparent
Closure")
This posture name was discussed on an earlier thread. I think I can summarize th
e ideas raised by describing the spirit hinted at by this posture name as being:
Make an "x" with the arms as if sealing off a crime scene and then push the doo
r closed with the arms. Any disagreements?
I also note that this posture name sounds suspiciously close to the name of the
fourth Posture of the first and second Chen Routines: 60% Open and 40% Closed (L
iu4 Feng1 Si4 Bi4). This posture also involves a two handed push, but it varies
in many of the details and in its position in the form. Does anyone have an expl
anation for the resemblence? From the little I know of Chinese dialect history a
nd general principles of phonetic change, I am a little skeptical that “liu4” an
d “ru2” could be confused and have assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that any substi
tution would be deliberate, rather than unintentional.
Shi2 Zi4 Shou3 (Cross Hands)
The character for ten in Chinese is the same as an "x," except oriented like a p
rinted "t." This posture is then apparently named for its shape, and probably wo
uld have been called "X-Hands" if T ai Chi had been invented in an English speak
ing country.
Bao4 Hu3 Gui1 Shan1 (Embrace Tiger and Return to Mountain)
My first reaction to considering this posture name was surprise that we go from
something so prosaic as "X-Hands" to something so evocative as "embracing mounta
in tigers." Does anyone know if this posture name contains any specific literary
allusions or antecedents from folk tales?
I also note that Yang Jwing Ming s books have a different sequence of posture na
mes than what is described here. The mechanics of the movements also differ some
what. After "As if Sealing and Like Closing," Yang Jwing Ming has "Embrace Tiger
and Return to the Mountain" and "Close T ai Chi" (He Tai Ji).
Together the two postures cover the same territory as "Cross Hands," but portray
an application that would involve scooping up an opponent s thigh or leg. He ha
s no separate name for the sequence here called Embrace Tiger and Return to the
Mountain and simply includes it under the following Grasp Sparrows Tail. Does an
yone know the reasons for the different treatment?
I also note that many Yang Styles have a difference between the final position o
f this posture and the Brush Knees, but Yang Zhen Duo does not. Again, does anyo
ne know the reasons behind the difference? Are different applications envisioned
, perhaps one using the arm to deflect a kick whereas the other using a pull dow
n (cai) technique to deflect a punch?
Zhou3 Di3 (Kan4) Chui2 (Fist (Looks) under (the) Elbow)
Yang Zhen Duo s sequence of names does not include here a Slanting Single Whip t
hat other Yang styles have. Moreover, the movement is changed so that the right
palm forms a Standing Palm (I think that is the correct term), rather than a Hoo
k Hand/Crane s Beak. Does anyone know the reasons behind the difference? Does an
yone have a martial explanation of the Standing Palm in this sequence?
I have heard differences of opinion as to whether the "elbow" referred to in thi
s posture is the practitioner s or the opponent s. Would all agree that for Yang
Zhen Duo s form at least, the elbow is the practitioner s?
You4/Zuo3 Dao4 Nian3 Hou2 (Right/Left Repel/Repulse Monkey(s))
I believe the Chinese in this phrase is ambiguous as to whether the practitioner
is repelling a monkey or whether the practitioner is repelling something else i
n a monkey-like way (Backward Repelling Monkey). In either case, the spirit of t
he posture seems pretty clear.
Xie2 Fei1 Shi4 (Diagonal Flying Posture)
Does the slant refer to the angle of the foot movement, to the angle of the arms
in the final posture, or to both?
Hai3 Di3 (Lao1) Zhen1 ((Picking/Dredging up) Needle at Sea Bottom)
I used to think that this posture referred to the delicate movement required to
reach way down to pick up a pin. Indeed, one of my dictionary defines this phras
e in effect as a metaphor for an impossible task.
I have read elsewhere, however, that Sea Bottom is a Chinese medical or martial
arts reference to the pelvic or pubic region. This would imply that the "needle"
is not on the floor, but actually is formed by the right palm attacking the opp
onent s lower body. This indeed is the application that Yang Zhen Duo shows in h
is book. Can anyone add to or correct what I have said?
Shan4 Tong1 Bei4 (Fan through the Back)
Does anyone have anything of interest to say about this posture name?
Zhuan3 Shen1 Pie1 Shen1 Chui2 (Turn Body and Flip Fist Past Body) (also named Tu
rn Body and Chop with Fist)
I find this posture name unusual, because the movement has four separate compone
nts. The name describes the first two components; however, the most yang part of
the posture (the left hand strike) and the ending position (the closed-fist Rol
l Back) are unnamed. If nothing else, this lends credence to a view that the for
m postures had definite linking components and may have been separated and named
only as afterthoughts.
Zuo3 You4 Yun2 Shou3 (Left-Right Cloud Hands)
Anyone have something interesting about this name?
Gou1 Tan4 Ma3 (High Pat on Horse)
"High Pat on Horse" is the standard translation for this phrase, but I cannot fi
gure out why it is done so. As I understand it, the word "tan" has nothing to do
with "pat," but rather means "search out." (I see, however, in one dictionary t
he phrase: tan4 shen1 (stretch out the body)). Apparently, the translation shoul
d be something like "High Search for the Horse(s)" and refers to "spying out one
s horse s on the high plains of China." Do I have this wrong?
The pictures of Yang Cheng Fu performing this posture seem to show him rising up
slightly. Could this be what the "high" part is referring to?
You4/Zuo3 Fen1 Jiao3 (Right/Left Separate Foot)
Separate Foot is the standard English translation for this posture, but isn t th
is a bit of unnecessary Chinglish? Shouldn t this really be "Separate Feet"? Als
o, why are the slanting bow-step Roll Backs that precede the kicks not deserving
of posture names? I find it hard to believe that they are merely convenient tra
nsitions to the kicks.
Zhuan3 Shen1 Zuo3 Deng1 Jiao3 (Turn Body, Left Heel Kick)
Does "Deng Jiao" really mean "heel kick," or simply "Press the foot out"? How do
es "deng jiao" differ from "ti1 jiao3 or ti1 tui3," which I have seen in some li
stings of the posture names? Do these names have something to do with the presen
ce or absence of "fa jin"? Do ball-of-the-foot kicks exist in Yang Zhen Duo s T
ai Chi? Do others ever kick with the ball of the foot?
Jin4 Bu4 Zai1 Chui2 (Step Forward and Punch Downward)
As I understand it "zai chui" literally means either "planting punch" or "fallin
g punch." If interpreted as "planting punch," I presume the reference would be t
o the position of bending over to plant a rice seedling. If interpreted as "fall
ing punch," would the reference be to the bent over position and direction of th
e punch, or perhaps to striking the head or leg of a fallen or falling opponent?
If there is sufficient interest, I will ask questions about other postures at an
other time. I look forward to any informed or uninformed opinions, corrections,
comments, or additions to anything I have set forth above.
Respectfully submitted,
Audi
IP: 12.78.158.238
Michael
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/Quote Audi,
I don t know if there are real "answers" to a number of your questons, but maybe
some of what i have been taught can be of some help.
Play the Lute/Pipa as opposed to lift hands step up.
I think the difference here is mainly that your are comming into them from diffe
rent positions. The application will vary due to the circumstances that arise fr
om those preceeding positions. I have been taught that the final positions are b
asically the same. I will have to check to see if i have missed something. In so
me versions the hands in Play the Lute seemed to be more upright if my memory se
rves me. This would fit with the some of the different applications.
Deflect downward, Parry and Punch.
As the opponent aims a left/right at your face (or whaerever) the deflect is str
iking the inside of the right arm bringing it down. The Parry is actually from t
he outside of the left arm pushing across. These are two very distinctly differe
nt movements. The parry motion is exactly what you find in fencing and all sword
work. You will find it in a number of places in the Yang sword form. In that ca
se the blade is being held upright and moved across the body.
Diagonal single whip
In both instances in the form after Carry tiger there is what is called "transit
ional single whip". In the second instance we form a cranesbeak and the left elb
ow is low as we are to indeed go into a single whip. In the first case we have o
ur left elbow held higher and the palm up as we are going into fist under elbow
and not COMPLETING single whip on the diagonal. It is not single whip until it i
s completed, or should i say, it is not single whip until the step is taken, the
waist begins to turn and.... I believe the names refer to the final position (a
nd the movement that got you there) not the transitions. So there actually is no
DIAGONAL single whip until one steps out on the diagonal, only a transition int
o it.
Fist under elbow
The "standing palm" has the same function as a parry as it does in Step forward,
deflect downward, parry, and punch.
I do disagree that the elbow spoken of is yours. Why would it be? Maybe you can
explain your take on the application (esp. the use of the right hand that become
s a fist)---sorry, I know this would be awfully hard to do in print as I am sure
you would agree. Anyway, in the applications I know the Right hand later is sla
nting in and down for a strike to the ribs if it is not needed for a defensive f
uction. That is why it becomes a fist at the end. Below the elbow along the the
rib is a nerve that when struck will deliver great pain. feel around for it on t
he lowest one and you will get the idea. If you think of the path of the right a
rm after parrying--it may not have the ability to bruise or break a rib but it c
an indeed a affect a nerve. Of course the right arm can be used differently. So
whether you think of the elbow of being yours or the opponent depends on the app
lication you envision. The form of Yang Zhen Dou does not have ONE application.
Do not be misled that if one example of technique is presented that that is THE
way it move is to be thought of.
When time permits i will come back to your more or your questions. i don t have
any answers but i hope some of my thoughts are useful to you.
[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 05-29-2001).]
IP: 38.144.151.137
Michael
/Quote Audi,
Turn and Chop with Fist.
I am not sure if I understand your description of Turn and Chop with Fist. Could
you help me with what you call a "Closed fist roll back"?
To me and in my experience, the movement of the right fist after completion of t
he "chop" technique is the continuation of the waist that brings the left hand i
n for the palm strike (or however you need to use it). The final position puts t
he right hand into position for either a parry across to the left or the arm bre
ak as we transition into deflect downward.... This also is a position that can b
e used to punch from with the rotation of the waist bringing the right toe out t
o the right, stepping forward and punching giving you the option of using the ar
m break transition or to punch depending on the actions of the opponent. The Cho
p with fist is Deflect downward Parry and Punch, the only difference is the dist
ance between the two hands and the step for the punch... One is more offensive o
riented and the other more defensive oriented....at least as they are taught.
The point of that description and the my variation of the standard Cop with fist
is the difference in giving these nearly identical positions different names is
almost the same as we find in Lift hands, step up and Play the lute. It depends
where you are coming from and the technique. This was always obvious on the phy
sical level but this is interesting in terms of your name questions. Remember, i
don t prtetend to have any answers, just ideas.
"Separate feet"
I also would like you to explain your "roll backs" before the kicks? Pardon my i
gnorance but among other things is not the main movement before the final waist
turn an arm lock? I have never had it described as a roll back before. I am alwa
ys curious and like to learn.
I think that in a number of the instances you bring up, the move is described as
simply as possible. Be glad that the names do not describe all the transitional
techniques. That is why I think they are not...because they are transitional te
chniques in MOST cases. In one way of applying "Turn and chop with fist" we coul
d very well describe it as Turn, press down, block up, cop opponent with fist an
d strike with palm." What is important is described.
Since i do not read or speak Chinese it is always interesting what those who do
come up with.
Thanks again.
[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 05-29-2001).]

IP: 208.50.80.71
DavidJ
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uote Hi Audi,
The names that I use are from the Yang Style as it s come down through the Tung
Family with influence from Marshall Ho o. Here are some of my thoughts and opini
ons, although some of the ideas expressed here are derived from these schools, t
hey are not to be construed as authoritative.
Twist step:
I read an article a long time ago that discussed this. It noted a preferred st
ep, where the same hand and foot are forward, and twist step where the hand th
at s forward is opposite from the foot that s forward. I m not at all sure what
is preferred in this usage. I think that the twist step is more natural to u
s because that s what we do when we walk.
I think the "twist" may come from the shoulders being at a different angle from
the hips.
Hand Strums the Lute/Pipa :
The names I learned are: Play the Harp and Raise Hands and Step Up to Standin
g Harp for Lifting Hands; and Play the Guitar/Fiddle for the posture you ca
ll Hand Strums the Lute/Pipa. I was taught that they are mirror images of one
another. However I ve seen it done where the right hand drops 8" to 12" lower in
Play the Guitar.
Bruce Lee used Play the Harp quite a bit.
The name I was taught was Grasp the Handle of the Hammer, Draw the Bucket out o
f the Well, Step Up, Strike, Parry, Punch.
Step Up here means a turn step, which is a higher step than the usual forward
step, that is, the foot is raised for ease of rotation. But then again the term
was also used to mean the usual step forward...
Apparent Closure :
I find it interesting that in the early 1800 s it was found that some American I
ndians would "lock" their tipi by crossing two sticks in front of the entrance f
lap. This custom was embraced by European immigrants/settlers.
Carry Tiger To Mountain :
The final posture that I do is the same as Brush Knee.
After Push in the beginning of the second section I was taught a Lateral Sing
le Whip, or Diagonal Horizontal Whip where the palms face down, and the edge
of the right hand leads where in Single Whip the eagle beak leads.
Punch Under Elbow :
I do this move ending with the fist under my own elbow, but consider anything wi
thin range of the fist to be fair game, like the nerve in the ribs that Michael
pointed out. It s also an excellent spot from which to throw a backhand.
Diagonal Flying Posture :
The name I was taught was Slanting Flying, or Slantingly Flying, and took it
as a reference to the motion of the leading hand. I find it a bit ironic that t
his is an excellent technique for throwing a frisbee. The step out I was taught
is not at an angle, but due east.
Needle to the Bottom of the Sea :
I ve been told that there is an accupuncture point named "sea bottom" on the top
of the foot. Is this possibly a reference to Dim Mak? It can be used for pickin
g up a rock or a stick.
Fan through the Back is what I feel in the muscles of the upper back when I do
the move.
High Pat on a Horse :
The image I get is the left hand is under the horse s chin and the right hand ru
bs him between the eyes. Da Liu gives an image of patting a horse on the back wh
ile holding its reins.
Separation of the Feet ;
You asked, > why are the slanting bow-step Roll Backs that precede the kicks not
deserving of posture names? <
I see no problem when that part of the move is intercepting a kick. I ve also se
en it used to lift an opponent s forward foot off the ground.
> Do others ever kick with the ball of the foot? <
Yes, and the top of the foot, and the side of the foot. However, the ball of the
foot is not preferred.
An application of Turn and Chop with Fist is where the right hand is used as a
backhand to the head or chin, then the left hand reaches forward to grab the sh
irt and pull the opponent off balance. The right hand strikes the temple from th
e side, then the left hand pulls the person to the ground. Then step over the un
concious form...
I agree with you that the sequence after the backhand could use a name.
Wave hands like Clouds or Cloud hands, White Crane and others:
Da Liu, in "T ai Chi Ch uan and the I Ching" says that Cloud hands, is taken f
rom hexagram 3 which alludes to images of water, clouds and moving like a wheel,
as well as images of the belly, and the hands. He also says that White Crane
relates in a similar fashion to hexagram 22, with images of a white bird, water
and wings. For Cross Hands he gives hexagram 36, with the image of the sun goi
ng down, which is the opposite of The Arising s sunrise from hexagram 35.
I think that there s a great deal of correspondence between the I Ching and Tai
Chi Chuan. I have noted in earlier posts some aspects of symmetry within Tai Chi
Chuan, and I think that these are reflected in the I Ching.
I have no idea whether these comments are of any use to you or not. I hope that
at least some of it helps.
Regards,
David J
IP: 205.188.197.47
Audi
file for Audi Click Here to Email Audi Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hi Michael and David,
Thanks for the responses. They are very helpful and just the sort of thing I was
hoping for.
(Brush Knee and) Twist Step
David, thanks for your quoted definition that relates this to opposing hands and
feet. This is something I never would have thought of. As I consider this, I ca
nnot think of any other movement in the form that steps into an upper hand oppos
ing a weighted forward foot. Perhaps this also explains somehow the difference b
etween “stepping up” and “stepping forward.” A separate idea that occurs to me i
s that “step up” may refer to “stepping up into a “fixed” posture, where the foo
t is not expected to move, such as before Grasp Sparrow’s Tail. “Step forward” m
ay refer to chasing the opponent in what is expected to be a transitional step,
such as before Deflect Downward, Parry, and Punch.
I forgot to mention one aspect of this stepping issue in my original post. In ca
lling out the moves during at least one seminar, Yang Zhen Duo called out an exp
licit “Ward Off Left” (not listed anywhere I have seen) during the “Step Up” tha
t precedes many of the Grasp Sparrow’s Tails. This was a wonderful clarification
as to the usage of the arms during this transition into the Ward off Right. I b
elieve he described that the unity of the five postures within Grasp Sparrows Ta
il were “clearer” in these sequences than in the beginning of the form.
Deflect Downward, Parry, and Punch
Michael, you mentioned that “the deflect is striking the inside of the right arm
bringing it down.” Assuming you are referring to the opponent’s arm, do you see
the inside of your own right arm as accomplishing this? Do you then see the “Pa
rry” as affecting the same arm of the opponent? What function, if any, do you se
e for the right arm and fist, as it circles from the left side of the body to th
e right? I know that some view this as a back fist and others see it as simply c
hambering the right arm for the punch. I personally am wary of the latter interp
retation, because it conforms to what I understand of Karate movement theory, bu
t not what I understand of T’ai Chi’s.
David, “hammer handles, buckets, and wells” are interesting terminology. You rem
ind me that the original form I learned had a right hand “Chop with Fist” simult
aneous with a left-hand Pull Down (cai) before beginning the Deflect Downward. B
y the way, when you refer to the “Step Up,” are you referring to the preliminary
movement of the left foot? If so, is the distinction you are drawing that this
movement in your form involves a heel pivot, whereas “Step Forward” might involv
e a (slightly) weighted pivot in the center of the foot?
Fist Under Elbow
Michael, I think my view of the emblematic application of this posture is the sa
me as what you describe, except for the movement and purpose of the left arm and
hand. First, I agree completely that all these postures have numerous, if not i
nfinite possible applications. As a result, I am speaking only about what I unde
rstand to be the “emblematic” application of Yang Zhen Duo’s posture movements.
As I understand it, the left hand goes through the transitional single whip with
the palm up to intercept the opponent’s left hand strike. The usage of your lef
t hand and arm would follow the following sequence: an outstretched Ward Off wit
h the left side of the wrist of the upturned hand leading, a Roll Back that circ
les outward with the waist and then twists horizontally counterclockwise into a
Push/Press (“An” energy), a Pull Down/Grasp (cai or ts’ai) that circles downward
, then inward to the right, and then continues into a forward twisting motion wi
th a Ward Off feel to it. The purpose of the left hand movement would be to inte
rcept the opponent’s hand, grasp his or her wrist, guide/pull the opponent out o
f his or her root, and then twist the entire arm so that the opponent’s left elb
ow is twisted toward his or her back and then vertically upward, exposing the ri
bs to attack. The right hand motion during all this is, as I understand it, simp
ly a horizontally circular punch that ends up “looking” under your own left elbo
w, but striking the opponent’s ribs. Is this clear, and does it help?
Fan through the Back
David, interesting idea about feeling a fan in your own back. I suppose this is
a good image for “plucking up the back” (ba bei) and keeping the back open and a
rms connected. I should have mentioned in my original post, that my understandin
g of the name is as follows. If one views the preceding Needle at Sea Bottom as
primarily a qin na, or locking, move that attempts to lock the opponent’s right
arm at the elbow, one can envision the opponent attempting escape by turning his
or her back counterclockwise to you to relieve the pressure. To deal with this,
you can lift the opponent’s arm up to continue restricting his or her movement
with a Press/Squeeze (Ji) movement of your arms and then follow through with an
open left-hand strike to the opponent’s exposed back. The name of the posture co
uld also be translated as “Fan Penetrates the Back.”
(Turn the Body and) Chop with Fist
Michael, you asked about what I described as “closed-fist Roll Back.” My underst
anding of the final position of this posture in Yang Zhen Duo’s form is that the
hand and body positions are exactly the same as in the end of Roll Back, except
that the right hand is in a fist. (The end position of the similar White Snake
Spits out Tongue (Bai she tu xin), however, does not even have this distinction.
) I am less certain of the spirit of this move, but I believe it is the same as
the striking Roll Back that follows Embrace Tiger and Return to Mountain. By the
way I like your comparison of this move with the following Deflect Downward, Pa
rry, and Punch.
David, I like your proposed application and your rather colorful language.
Just for clarity, the application I visualize for this move is as follows. I hav
e dispatched an opponent with Fan through the Back and sense a different attack
coming from my rear. Since I am blind to the attack, I turn with the right elbow
leading in case the attack is close and with the other arm at the ready. I foll
ow through with the right hand back fist to clear downward whatever is coming my
way and/or to strike to the bridge of the opponent’s nose (Ditto for White Snak
e Spits out tongue, except that I follow through a with finger flick to the eyes
if my fist is blocked). If my fist misses or if I succeed in opening up my oppo
nent, I continue the motion with an open left-hand strike to my opponent’s body.
If this is blocked by my opponent’s left “Ward Off” arm, I seize it, pull it do
wn and back to the left with my waist turn, and initiate a striking Roll Back to
attempt to break my opponent’s arm using my right forearm.
If a miss the arm lock, I continue the motion in the next posture (Deflect Downw
ard, Parry, Punch) by using the waist to pull the opponent’s arm down further wi
th my left hand and to press down with my right inner forearm to obstruct my opp
onent’s movement and to threaten to uproot him or her to my left and rear, thus
exposing his or her side or back. To avoid being uprooted, the opponent is likel
y to resist by pulling and stepping backward to his or her rear, while reaching
forward or striking with his or her right arm. I counter by stepping forward wit
h my right leg, deflecting my opponent’s reaching right arm across to the right
and down with my right elbow and forearm, and use a back fist to try for his or
her nose in the bargain. I then reach forward with my left hand to press at my o
pponent’s right elbow to pin it across his or her body or perhaps to grab clothi
ng to prevent escape. As my opponent retreats backward, I chase with a left-foot
step and punch under the opponent’s right arm, which remains pinned by my left
palm as allow that palm to close with my approaching chest.
By the way, throughout my description of applications, I am implying a subtle le
vel of partial control or leading of the opponent through the so-called energies
of listening, adhering, sticking, transforming, seizing, etc., and not a prepla
nned sequence that is forced onto the opponent or that beats him or her “to the
punch.” More importantly, I am also not claiming to have answers, simply describ
ing what is going through my mind from whatever source.
Cloud Hands
David, I find your allusions to the I Ching interesting and ought to add Da Liu’
s book to my long list of things to read. I fear, however, that for me this woul
d tip the delicate T’ai Chi balance over from enlightening to overwhelming. Out
of curiosity, does his book talk about “random” correspondences between the hexa
grams and T’ai Chi postures, or does he have a more evolved theory that attempts
to “derive” all T’ai Chi theory from the hexagrams?
Separate Feet,
Michael, I believe that Yang Zhen Duo’s description of the arm position and move
ment used in the arm lock prior to the kick is “level (or horizontal) Roll Back”
(ping2 lu:3). The direction of the torso and the stance are, of course, quite d
ifferent from the Roll Back in Grasp Sparrows Tail. One of the discoveries I had
in attending one of the Yangs’ seminars was that they apparently see explicit R
oll Backs in many transitional postures of the form (e.g., prior to Strike the T
iger, after the last Fair Lady Works the Shuttle, at the end of Chop with Fist,
etc.). On the other hand, I do not believe that the have a real “Holding the Bal
l” position anywhere in their form.
By the way, I have never been able to satisfactorily link up the applications im
plied by High Pat on Horse, the arm lock prior to the kick, and the wrist grab o
r release implied by the double ward off (or crossed) arms that start the kick.
Do you have a view on this?
David, I find your proposed application of grabbing a foot interesting, given my
wrestling background; however, not being familiar with your form, I am uncertai
n of the movement implied. Are you perhaps talking about windmilling the right a
rm upward, backward, downward, and forward to grab an opponent’s heel, prior to
forming the double ward off (or crossed) arms that begin the kicks? Can you link
up all the applications from High Pat on Horse through the first Separate Foot?
Thanks again both of you for the interesting dialog, whether “correct,” “informe
d,” or not. I find it very helpful in shaping my focus as I do form and apprecia
ting all the options implied by the movements.
Happy practice,
Audi
IP: 12.78.157.14
Louis Swaim
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Reply w/Quote Greetings,
Audi has raised a number of great questions on “part II” of the posture names th
read. I don’t have time to respond to all of them, but there are some I can’t re
sist chiming in on.
There is an explanation for the “ao” character in “lou xi ao bu” (brush knee twi
st step). For years I thought the twist referred to the action of the foot, but
of course the foot does not turn out in all of the lou xi ao bu forms. Someone (
thanks, Ron K.) brought to my attention the explanation in Huang Wen-Shan’s book
, _Fundamentals of Tai Chi Ch’uan_(p. 220), which states that when the forward h
and and forward foot are both on the same side, it is called “favorable hand.” W
hen the forward foot and forward hand are on alternate sides, it’s called “twist
step” (ao bu). Subsequently, I found this exact explanation in Xu Yusheng’s 192
1 book, _Taijiquan Shi Tujie_ (Illustrated Explanations of Taijiquan Postures).
In fact, Huang evidently translated his explanation directly from Xu’s book. (Xu
Yusheng was a student of Yang Jianhou; Huang Wen-shan was a student of Dong Yin
gjie.). The term Huang was translating as “favorable” is “shun” which means “goe
s along with,” “in the same direction with.” One of the glosses one will find in
Chinese dictionaries for “ao,” is “bu shun,” that is, “not” shun. So it is the
opposite of “going along with.” Another meaning of shun is “easily, smoothly.” S
hunshou means it comes easily to the hand: easy and convenient. In another usage
, “bushunkou” means “doesn’t come easily to the mouth,” that is, something diffi
cult to say, hence, a “tongue-twister.” That may be where the “twist” came from,
but “ao” in any case carries a meaning of “counter to,” and that is the actual
sense of it in the form name—simply that the forward foot is on one side, and th
e forward hand is on the opposite side. The explanation David relayed accords wi
th this.
For “zhou di kan chui” (observe fist under elbow), I just want to note something
fascinating in T.Y. Pang’s book, _On Tai Chi Chuan_. His form instructions name
the transition between “Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain,” and “Observe Fist U
nder Elbow.” The transition is named: “Da Peng Zhan Chi” (Great Peng Spreads its
Wings), which happens to be a form name in the Yang sword set. Also of note, Xu
Yusheng’s form instructions do include an “oblique single whip” prior to the fi
rst High Pat on Horse, rather than the standing palm transitional sequence we no
w know. Curiously, Yang Chengfu’s book mentions neither. The form instructions s
imply go from Embrace Tiger to Grasp Sparrow’s Tail, then to Observe Fist Under
Elbow, giving no clue as to how to do the transition.
On Shan Tong Bei (fan through back), I’m in agreement with David’s understanding
. This posture is a great example of “opening” (kai). The way a fan opens (kai)
is a great image for the opening and spreading out from the back that occurs in
this posture.
The name Gao Tan Ma (high pat on horse) is fascinating. I’ve seen explanations t
hat say one is standing in front of a horse holding the reins in the left hand a
nd patting, or “soothing” the horse with the right. Others say one is on the hor
se’s back, sitting “high in the saddle,” and reaching forward. Again, this is Hu
ang Wen-shan s explanation, and again it’s verbatim from Xu Yusheng. I’ve read t
hat the early generation of the Yang family spent a good deal of time around hor
ses, as did the Wu (Jianquan) family. So one might imagine that they were good h
orse whisperers. The verb tan means “to test, to put out a feeler, to explore, s
py, scout,” as well as the physical motion of “stretching forth.” All of these c
onnotations work for me in the posture, which requires a rising up and a stretch
ing forth. There is, incidentally, a compound, “tanma” which means a mounted sco
ut.
Audi, I do prefer “separate feet.” Also, you ask, “why are the slanting bow-step
Roll Backs that precede the kicks not deserving of posture names?” Well, in Yan
g Chengfu’s book, _Taijiquan Tiyong Quanshu_, they are named. The photos are acc
ompanied by the names, “you fen jiao lu shi,” and “zou fen jiao lu shi.” But gue
ss what? In Xu Yusheng’s book these are also named, but they aren’t named “roll
back,” they’re named Gao Tan Ma. The sequence is conspicuously lacking in logica
l consistency though. First there is the familiar rear-weighted one, here named
“zou (left) gao tan ma,” then Right Separate Feet, then the transition, which is
named “you (right) gao tan ma (but is front-weighted), followed then by Left Se
parate Feet. Both Yang Chengfu and Xu Yusheng’s form instructions describe an ap
plication of rollback within the sequences leading up to the Separate Feet movem
ents.
Well, that’s it for now.
Take care,
Louis
[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 06-05-2001).]
IP: 165.247.213.167
Michael
/Quote Audi,
Did I say that in Deflect, downward....that the "backfist" (I agree with you) st
rikes the opponents RIGHT arm? My mistake , it should have read LEFT. Sorry for
the confusion. The fist strikes the inside of the opponents left arm moving it s
lightly out and down. I hope that clears it up.
Fist under elbow
I agree entirely with your description of the use of the left arm in Fist under
elbow. And for the first time, due to your description, i understand how some de
scribe the fist being under ones own elbow. I would add that when bringing the o
pponents right arm up it may serve to "block" up and trap an attempt by the oppo
nent to strike again with his left hand--also exposing his ribs. With his arms i
n such a position, the turn of the waist to the left and the extension of the ar
m will certainly compromise his root...or you can strike the ribs-or both. It is
quite a move in any number of ways.
Separate feet
I tend to have a tighter definition of "roll back" but i understand your and oth
ers use of it.
This is just a guess as to the transition between High Pat on Horse and the arm
work at the beginning in seperate feet. I tend to think of it (the waist move to
the right)as throwing or "helping aside" a first opponent and then dealing with
a second. then the second sequence dealing with the first again. Note that the
step forward from the first kick could just as well be a step back on the diagon
al.
I am beginning to form several other ideas on the transition as I write. I will
get back to you if any seem realistic.
Cross hands
Davids description of grabbing a leg, I would agree with. I never put it togethe
r in cross hands before even though the technique is known to me. In Kuang Ping
we lower ourselves, scoop behind the opponents legs (knees) and then stand up. I
have seen the exact same technique in Shaolin. This seems indeed to be implied
in Cross hands. It is particularily interesting that in Yang Zhen Duos form and
in the Kuang Ping, that this is the only time that we are in a horse stance outs
ide of the opening with that weight distribution. This does not seem to be a coi
ncidence as in both instances the energy is directed up whether lifting ones arm
s for a number of purposes, or to lift up an opponents leg(s) with the (implied)
straightening of the knees...this being preferable to just using the arms.
Concerning the "double ward off" held before one before intiating kicks. I have
been taught (that among other things) that the inside arm (wrist) has been grabb
ed and you wipe off (and possibly grab and control) with the outside hand.
i like Davids technique in the transition from Turn and chop into Deflect downwa
rd.
Audi, David and Louis, I find your words very useful. Thanks
IP: 208.50.80.71
DavidJ
uote Hi Louis,
Thanks for the "goes along with" meaning of "shun" which had been translated as
"favorable." This makes better sense to me.
Would you translate (and comment upon) "you fen jiao lu shi," and "zou fen jiao
lu shi?" I d appreciate it.
Regards,
David
IP: 152.163.213.48
DavidJ
uote Hi Audi,
> By the way, when you refer to the “Step Up,” are you referring to the prelimin
ary movement of the left foot? <
Where I wrote, " Step Up here means a turn step, which is a higher step than th
e usual forward step, that is, the foot is raised for ease of rotation. But then
again the term was also used to mean the usual step forward..." I coulds have s
aid this better. I was refering to how I thought my first teacher used the term.
I ve come to use the term "stepping up" to mean shifting all of the weight to on
e foot, regardless of a pivot before or during the weight shift.
> “hammer handles, buckets, and wells” are interesting terminology <
I forgot a term: in line with Grasping the Handle of the Hammer the punch was
called Ringing the Gong. and the accent was on striking the opponent s center.
Fan through the Back
As I write this I just remembered that this was also called The Wheel which, l
ike a fan, can have spokes and a rolling motion.
A side note: You mentioned an arm lock -picture your arm locked at the elbow by
an opponent, virtually any position, now picture rotating the arm either clockwi
se or counterclockwise, and see if that can resolve the arm lock.
> Out of curiosity, does his [Da Liu] book talk about “random” correspondences b
etween the hexagrams and T’ai Chi postures, or does he have a more evolved theor
y that attempts to “derive” all T’ai Chi theory from the hexagrams? <
Not random at all. "Derive" might be closer to Da Liu s view. But the moves bein
g an intrinsic part might be closer still. Some think that Tai Chi and the I Chi
ng date back to the same time and place (4400 or 4600 BC), actually putting the
development of Tai Chi before the invention of the trigrams of the I Ching. (Fun
damentals of Tai Chi Chuan by Huang Wen Shan)
At the very least the idea of encoding Tai Chi in the I Ching is presented in th
e Wilhelm/Baynes translation on page 194. Hexagram 50 The Caldron, there is ment
ion of the words hinting at the teachings surrounding Chinese yoga.
However, I know of no document that unravels the full relationship between Tai C
hi and the I Ching. I ve been considering it for some time, and I m approaching
it from the point of view of symmetry. I think that you may be wise, at this poi
nt in time, in placing it on a back burner.
If I understand the arm lock that you mentioned with High Pat on a Horse, the
left hand is holding the other s left wrist, and has rotated it counterclockwise
, the right hand is near the elbow, you probably have control of the other perso
n at this point, and there may be no need for following that particular applicat
ion with Separation of the Foot. (You can end up in this same position from R
oll Back, so I think I understand what you meant by explicit Roll Backs)
> Are you perhaps talking about windmilling the right arm upward, backward, down
ward, and forward to grab an opponent’s heel, prior to forming the double ward o
ff (or crossed) arms that begin the kicks? <
Yes, but I was talking mostly about the downward and forward, then upward approa
ch to the hands crossing. On way involves hooking the ankle with your wrist as t
he hand comes forward and up (don t be too intent on hanging onto the ankle beca
use the opponent may lose balance at anytime,) and lifting the opponent s leg, t
hrough stepping up (the way I think of stepping up) Then, after the hands cross,
the opening up of the arms starting to push the opponent off balance and using
your leg, not as a kick, but to simply complete the push.
If, while opening the arms, the lead hand s rotation allows you grasp the ankle,
then you can hold the leg up and kick to the crotch. This, of course, may be in
terpreted as rude.
Note: Some style variations put a second High Pat on a Horse between the Sepa
rations of the Feet., which I believe Louis referred to.
> Can you link up all the applications from High Pat on Horse through the first
Separate Foot? <
All the applications? Too many variables. I wouldn t even hazard a guess as to h
ow many applications are possible. I think I mentioned before that I had heard t
hat Chen Fa-Que knew 100 applications for each move.
If this opponent is one of many, you have the opportunity to break the elbow, or
dislocate the shoulder, or lever the person into the other attackers.
Generally, though:
Either hand, but especially the right, can be used to give yourself a little roo
m. Like Michael said, "helping aside" one opponent.
I think in terms of a general rule: parry first then strike.
I m glad that you and Michael liked my application. Thanks to both of you for yo
ur feedback.
I m enjoying the discussion.
David
IP: 152.163.213.48
Louis Swaim
Reply w/Quote
quote:Originally posted by DavidJ:
Hi Louis,
Thanks for the "goes along with" meaning of "shun" which had been translated
as "favorable." This makes better sense to me.
Would you translate (and comment upon) "you fen jiao lu shi," and "zou fen j
iao lu shi?" I d appreciate it.
Regards,
David
Greetings David,
Yes, sorry; I should have done that. The name "you fen jiao lu shi" would be "ri
ght separate feet, rollback form," and "zou fen jiao lu shi" would be "left sepa
rate feet, rollback form." I place a comma in the English because each rollback
(lu) is a subset of the "separate feet" sequence that it precedes. In Yang Cheng
fu’s book, he describes an application scenario in which he rolls back the oppon
ent’s left arm in order to unbalance him prior to kicking his exposed left flank
(ribs below the armpit). He notes a “hidden application” (an shi) involving a d
ownword rotation of the left palm to employ pull down energy (cai jin). This of
course is not how it appears in the form, where the left palm remains obliquely
facing up, but is mentioned as an alternate method. In Yang Chengfu’s book, a ph
oto for “right separate feet, rollback form,” with that caption precedes the pho
to captioned “right separate feet.” Then, captioned photos for the two left side
forms follow.
Take care,
Louis
IP: 165.247.201.63
Louis Swaim
Reply w/Quote Greetings,
In my haste, I mis-spoke about something a few posts above. I said that Yang Che
ngfu’s book doesn’t mention either an Oblique Single Whip or the more familiar s
tanding palm transition from “Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain” to “Observe Fis
t Under Elbow.” I was thinking about the photos in the book, which go from the A
n (push) posture to Observe Fist Under Elbow with no visual information about th
e transition. Yang’s narrative, however, says that “the movement is similar to t
he turning of the body in the prior Single Whip form,” advising the reader to co
nsult that sequence. The footwork is explicitly described, and the hands are des
cribed as moving with the body, level with the shoulders. There’s no mention of
a hook hand or a standing palm.
Take care,
Louis
IP: 165.247.215.85
cary
Regular Contributor posted 11-14-2003 06:59 AM Click Here to See the Pro
file for cary Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Hi- with reference to twi
st step , the name comes from the passing resemblence to the tortuous way of wal
king of women with bound feet.Ie once the front foot was down, the poor wretch h
ad to swivel her hips to bring the back leg forward. In tai chi terms, we have t
he choice of briefly shifting back,then opening the front foot out, or for more
advaanced practitioners,turning the weighted foot using the waist.This can strai
n a novice s knee.
Cary
IP: 195.93.34.9
cary
file for cary Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Hai di zhen... the hai di
is an energy centre at the perineum, so yes ,there s some wordplay going on he
re! Cary
IP: 195.93.34.9
Anderzander
file for Anderzander Click Here to Email Anderzander Edit/Delete Message
Reply w/Quote Just a few comments
quote:Originally posted by Audi:
Bao4 Hu3 Gui1 Shan1 (Embrace Tiger and Return to Mountain)
My first reaction to considering this posture name was surprise that we go f
rom something so prosaic as "X-Hands" to something so evocative as "embracing mo
untain tigers." Does anyone know if this posture name contains any specific lite
rary allusions or antecedents from folk tales?
This is only supposition, but as the tiger image is used later within the later
posture ‘step back to ride the tiger’ and therein infers a ‘ferocious attack’, p
erhaps the tiger symbol remains consistent here?
‘Mountain’ could perhaps be consistent with the usage in ‘stand like a mountain’
So going on a little further – perhaps receiving a ferocious attack by embracing
it during the transition, and then ‘reasserting’ central equilibrium, is the in
ference from the name?

Xie2 Fei1 Shi4 (Diagonal Flying Posture)
Does the slant refer to the angle of the foot movement, to the angle of the
arms in the final posture, or to both?
Cheng Man Ching described this posture as ‘delivering a a blow diagonally to his
neck’
Zuo3 You4 Yun2 Shou3 (Left-Right Cloud Hands)
Anyone have something interesting about this name?
To quote Cheng Man Ching again, ‘the name cloudy hands means I am moving like th
e floating clouds and running water, from inaction to action.’
Stephen
IP: 213.122.51.188
Louis Swaim
Reply w/Quote
quote:Originally posted by cary:
Hai di zhen... the hai di is an energy centre at the perineum, so yes ,the
re s some wordplay going on here! Cary
Greetings Cary,
May I ask what tradition used the name haidi for the perineum? I ve seen it refe
rred to as the huiyin point, but not the haidi. I also wonder what the reference
to this point would mean in this context. It doesn t seem to be a plausible str
ike point given the position and direction of the right hand in this form. Perha
ps it just describes an approximate locus of the practitioner s hand relative to
his own perineum?
Now that I think about it, the dantian is sometimes called the "qihai" (sea of q
i), so "haidi" would be a plausible name for the perineum. I m just curious wher
e you captured this information.
Let s get to the bottom of this.
Take care,
Louis
IP: 198.45.19.20
psalchemist
file for psalchemist Click Here to Email psalchemist Edit/Delete Message
Reply w/Quote Greetings Anderzander,
You said:
<This is only a supposition, but as the tiger image is used later within the pos
ture "step back to ride the tiger" and therein infers a ferocious attack, perhap
s the tiger symbol remains consistent here?>
Steve,
I have never heard "ferocious attack" referred to before as a description within
the Taijiquan form, but find this very interesting.....
Have you any other commentary to provide on this point?
Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-14-2003).]
IP: 66.130.112.229
psalchemist
Reply w/Quote Greetings Louis,
You said the Dantian can be/is sometimes referred to as the "sea of qi".....
Are there any other references to sea, ocean, or body of water in Taijiquan expr
essions/terminology that you are aware of?
Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
IP: 66.130.112.229
Louis Swaim
Reply w/Quote Hi Psalchemist,
Regarding "qi hai," check out this URL:
http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=CV6&meridian=Conception%20Vessel
As for water imagery in taiji, I believe there s quite a bit of that. See, for e
xample, the sword form names elsewhere on the Yang Family site. I m sure there s
a good deal of water imagery throughout the classical taiji literature, but spe
cifics escape me at the moment.
Take care,
Louis
IP: 198.45.19.20
psalchemist
God bless your heart!
Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
IP: 66.130.112.229
psalchemist
I was inquiring a while ago about the posture "Shan Tong Bei"..."Fan through bac
k" in conjunction with metal,perhaps a sword, I also threw in an informal phrase
release the metal arrow .
I can see some connections now that I couldn t before due to lack of knowledge,
but have put a few pieces together recently which clarifies my queries...
This posture, in its final stages is extending the left arm forward, left foot f
orward etc...(releasing the jin as it were, IF one were to employ Fajin techniqu
es through the left hand) and so to me, could possibly represent a substantially
overall leftsided release .
In the link you provided above, I have discovered a correlation between the meri
dians running down the left side of the body with the element "Metal" and the ri
ght side of the body with the element "Wood".
In the case of the predominance in Shan Tong Bei for the left side, I might cons
ider this as a predominantly metal movement.
I was reading through all the descriptions presented in this thread earlier and
someone mentioned the "spokes of a wheel" in reference to the "Fan Through Back-
Shan Tong Bei" posture which could possibly connote an arrow-like, even metallic
gesture.
The release of an arrow would be a forward motion similarly to the stance Shan t
ong bei s use of Footwork skills: Jinbu ...(also the element metal )..."focuss
ing yi on jinbu point will propel the body forward"...also Jin(bu) step forwar
d ).
Hence:
RELEASE(Fajin),the
METAL(Meridian leftside, wheel spokes, footwork element)
ARROW(spoke-like),(forward propulsion...Unsaid, in a forward direction:Jinbu fo
rward footwork skills, Yi focus on jinbu pt. propels forward]
The phrase seems, at least not to violate any of the descriptions for the postur
e...even though it is not an official Taijiquan term...do you think it could app
ly to the posture in question? Or does it defy some logic I am as of yet ignoran
t of in the art?
Does it hold water, or is my bucket full of holes?
Thanks again for that reference, I will be studying, pondering, dissecting etc.e
tc.etc. for a very long time.
Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
P.S. Is there a family style which employs "Fajin" in this posture?
IP: 66.130.112.229
Louis Swaim
Reply w/Quote Greetings Cary,
I’m still hoping that you’ll share some more of your findings regarding the use
of the term “haidi.” In the meantime, I was able to find a passing reference to
the term haidi in Chen Yanlin’s (a.k.a., Chen Gong) 1943 book on Yang style taij
iquan. It’s in the section titled, “taijiquan de huxi yu yun qi fa” (taijiquan’s
methods of breathing and qi circulation), appearing in a description of the med
itative practice of following the qi, where it says that the qi of the dantian t
ravels downward to the haidi, then passes directly to the weilu before ascending
up the spine. Stuart Olson’s translation of this material in his book, _Cultiva
ting the Ch’i: the Chen Kung Series, Volume 1_ (Dragon Door 1993), glosses “haid
i” as “Sea Bottom Cavity (coccyx),” and “weilu” as “tailgate cavity (tailbone).”
I’m just curious what tradition these terms are grounded in. They aren’t standa
rd terms for acupuncture points, but there are non-standard medical traditions t
hat may be the source of these terms. (The term weilu appears in the Autumn Floo
ds chapter of the Zhuangzi, but may be mytho-geographical, rather than anatomica
l in its meaning.)
Chen Yanlin’s description of the taijiquan sequence, haidizhen (needle at sea bo
ttom), makes no reference to any particular significance of the term “haidi,” an
d his application scenario is very close to Yang Chengfu’s. On the other hand, X
u Yusheng (Xu Longhou), in his 1921 book, _Taijiquan shi tujie_, says that the f
orm is so named because the term haidi is the name of a cavity on the human body
, and the hand stabs (ci) in the direction of that point. Unfortunately, Xu does
not say where the point is located. His application scenario also makes no refe
rence to actually pressuring a point on the opponent’s body, so it may only have
to do with the general direction one aims (?). Huang Wenshan’s English book, Fu
ndamentals of T’ai Chi Ch’uan (Hong Kong, 1979), which cribs heavily from Xu’s b
ook, says the posture is so named because, “It means that the hand (needle) is u
sed to pressure the vital point, which is known as ‘Sea Bottom’ (Hai Ti) in acup
uncture, at the foot of the opponent.” (p. 240) Again, I’m not aware of this bei
ng an acupuncture term. Similarly, T.Y. Pang, in his book _On Tai Chi Chuan_ (Az
alea, 1987, p. 96), writes, “ ‘Sea Bottom’ is a point on a meridian. Actually th
e books never say where that point is, but I think it must mean in the region of
the energy center (dan bian) in the abdomen. So you are using your hand to atta
ck the chu hai [sic] (an acupuncture point on the abdomen just below the navel,
the dan point).” This would be the qihai point I mentioned.
It would seem, then, that there is considerable variation in just what the term
haidi refers to. Moreover, as touched on in another thread on this board, there
may be reason to believe that the form name was inspired by a common proverbial
phrase, “haidi lao zhen” (looking for a needle on the sea floor), rather than re
ferencing some pressure point or energy center. Who knows?
If you can shed any more light on this, and let me know the source of your infor
mation regarding its being an “energy center” at the perineum, I’d appreciate it
.
Take care,
Louis
[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 11-18-2003).]
IP: 165.247.220.23
dorshugla
file for dorshugla Click Here to Email dorshugla Edit/Delete Message Rep
ly w/Quote I may be may off here but Needle at Sea Bottom point is located somew
here in middle to upper ribs, as I was told once. I may have been sleeping since
the actual application is pointing to qihai it kind of throws of my supposition
. I will have to ask around.
Using metaphor, many times (as I have understood) martial adepts were not intell
ectuals and many could not read or write. There existed problem with dialect and
translation between provincces.
The present application of "haid izhen" is as you wrist is being grasped at ches
t level (between chest and navel (qihai), place left hand (inner palm ontop) opp
onent wrist and point 4 fingers (right hands) in downward position (bending angl
e of wrist) while
utilizing limited downward peng (as opposed to pushing peng).
Actual form tend to be too low for application, althought the art aspect tends t
o estethically pleasing (for show). A good thing if that is one s interest!
IP: 130.36.62.125
Louis Swaim
Reply w/Quote Greetings dorshugla,
You wrote: “The present application of "haidi zhen" is as you wrist is being gra
sped at chest level (between chest and navel (qihai), place left hand (inner pal
m ontop) opponent wrist and point 4 fingers (right hands) in downward position (
bending angle of wrist) while utilizing limited downward peng (as opposed to pus
hing peng).”
Yes, that is certainly one of them, and it can drop an opponent in an instant, o
r have them duckwalking like Chuck Berry, depending on how much they resist, and
how it is applied. It won’t work if one tries to strong-arm it; it’s the sinkin
g of the body that makes it effective. However, it’s only one part of a progress
ive series of techniques that can come into play in the whole sequence of Needle
at Sea Bottom, Fan Through Back, and Turn Body Cast Fist (? the form name escap
es me at the moment)—from a simple wrist release, to joint immobilizing locks, t
o strikes. It all depends on the actions of the opponent.
Yang Zhenduo s form description doesn t mention the applying of the left palm to
the opponent s wrist, but Chen Yanlin includes it in his description as one pos
sible technique. It s optional, depending on what s needed.
Take care,
Louis
IP: 198.45.19.20
dorshugla
ly w/Quote Louis,
Your are right-there are multiple uses.
If one is in conflict with a stronger opponent, then the single use (without lef
t hand gently helping) will be unworkable.
Only the simple pickpocket or petty crime person will resort to this strategy (i
.e.holding wrist because the person appear weak).
BAsed on the objective reality of crime statisttics, this type of action rarely
exists (grasping wrists to assault) so it become non-functional through disuse o
r lack of awareness of how to use.
IP: 130.36.62.126
psalchemist
I was pondering a purely theoretical perspective concerning the "Needle at Sea B
ottom" posture.
An uneducated guess at a possible metaphorical meaning...
No reference.
I am simply presenting a creative idea on the issue.
Considering opening and closing of points and channels...
In "Needle at Sea Bottom" when one bends the torso to go downwards, I believe th
ere is a closing up of the frontal waist channels/conception vessel (whose low
est point is the Huiyin point or perineal point), which causes a general depriva
tion of qi to the waist area (the qi focussed is somewhere else-the points which
compensated by opening). When one proceed to raise up again this then causes th
e closed points to open as a floodgate, or opening a dam. and the waist area the
n becomes flooded with a "sea of qi" from the waist to the pireneal. Perhaps s
imilar in nature to the process of accupuncture where needling the perineal poin
t will stimulate flow and unblock passages in this area.
Thus needle(provoking stimulation) at sea bottom(perineal area)...
Well, I tried.
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
IP: 66.130.112.229
dorshugla
ly w/Quote We are back to metaphor again.
Let me explain: It has a cultural, social and intellectual bias/background. We a
re referencing the "Neeedle at Sea bottom" posture-As I was told many years ago,
the Sea Bottom point (hai di zhen) was/is somewhere between middle to upper rib
s area (a specific point) and is used to shock/or stop an attack whith an overly
aggressive individual who didn t /doesn t heed or understand compassion or reas
on. It needed intervention of the one who applied it to use resucitation techniq
ues also implying knowledge of acupuncture/some degree of anatomy or experience-
in other words, a knowledgeable and literate instructor or person.
The passive observes who has an interest, or less lietrate will hear the tern/ph
rase "Needle at sea botton" and will in his social framework reference top there
fore bottom (below), and as the actual posture is going down towards the qihai a
rea (lower dantian below navel) so the conclusion is it must be the answer. It i
s a logical conclusion based onmj "metaphor" of posture and actual representatio
n.
Agian, fellows, I cannot prove in writing that this is the case but I have perso
nal experience. My teachers were of the "old school" (somewhat literate, in my w
ords as their explanations proved right over the years). Please remember I did n
ot believe everyhtiong they said but since I believe I have some ability to diff
erentiate the false from the real only time will reveal its key.
Please do not believe what I said as gospel. Please scrutinize everything this w
ay.
Practice, listen and apply. If it works, so be it.
IP: 130.36.62.126
Louis Swaim
Reply w/Quote Ps and d,
In what sense do you both mean "metaphorical?"
Psalchemist,
How do you get xuanji as the "perineal point?"
All in all, this seems pretty unfocused.
Take care,
Louis
IP: 198.45.19.20
psalchemist
Your right, I used the wrong end of the Conception vessel (huiyin-xuanji)...
Huiyin-perineal
Chengjian-bottom lip/chin
Thanks for the correction,

Best regards,
Psalchemist.
(P.S. message has been edited for Chengjian point vs. Xuanjin)
IP: 66.130.112.229
Louis Swaim
Reply w/Quote Xuanji-bottom lip/chin
Are you sure about this?
--Louis
IP: 198.45.19.20
psalchemist
Looking at the sheet in my hands...the link you provided on accupoints depicts f
or the "conception vessel" 21 points...from Huiyin perineal to Xuanji...mouth/li
p/chin.
Upon further investigations I realize that my printout is faulty...it ceased pri
nting at the 21st when there are 24points - Chengjian is the last one on the lis
t, and ALL my printouts are LACKING!
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
IP: 66.130.112.229
Louis Swaim
Reply w/Quote No. It has 24 points. Xuanji is CV21:
http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=CV21&meridian=Conception%20Vesse
l
The location you described would be CV24, "Chengjiang."
--L
IP: 198.45.19.20
dorshugla
ly w/Quote Louis,
The actual representation as practiced today per hai di zhen (needle at sea bott
om) is literal where right hand is going downward where a logical explanation is
hand going towards qihai/dantian (groin) or lower, whicn may not be actual use.
It apears most people only know about this literal explanation so in this sense
, it has reality (albeit its own).
The metaphor is that the "sea bottom point location" may have been "lost" meanin
g no one may be aware of its actual position, or, it has roots in classical "Dao
ist" acupuncture, or even modern acupuncture for that matter i snot discussed-I
do not know.
I will not venture to say it is "secret"-only that people do not talk about it o
penly.
My last two statements follow each other like night and day, wherether they mean
the same thing is left to the wind.
All I am saying is the common meaning (what most people say it is) is distinct f
rom its physical "esoteric" reality, though they may share a common thread.
At this point I cannot prove my asertion on location but I will try in the near
future to give a reference for you to check since your Mandarin ability far exce
eds mine.
IP: 130.36.61.127
psalchemist
Reply w/Quote P.S. Please note, anyone reading this conversation that correctio
ns have been made for the Huiyin and Chengjian points in my previous posts, in c
ase there is confusion.
Psalchemist.
IP: 66.130.112.229
DavidJ
uote Hi psalchemist,
You wrote, > In "Needle at Sea Bottom" when one bends the torso to go downwards,
<
From everything I know in Tai Chi Chuan and physiology this is bad form. There i
s a waist turn, but don t bend at the waist because this puts too much pressure
on the lower part of the spine. Do it with your back straight.
Cheers,
David J
IP: 198.81.26.142
psalchemist
Reply w/Quote Greetings DavidJ,
Thanks for pointing that out, I will make it a point of inquiry for correction.
Lovely day hmmm?
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
IP: 66.130.112.229
Louis Swaim
Reply w/Quote Greetings David,
You make an excellent point about the posture. Although Yang Chengfu s descripti
on speaks of "folding the waist and sinking downward," this is another case wher
e the designation "waist" is misleading in English. The "folding" is actually do
ne at the pelvis joints, with the spine remaining straight, though inclining for
ward. The photo of Yang Chengfu s posture shows this. I seem to recall that Fu Z
hongwen s more modern description was clearer about this.
Take care,
Louis
List of Tai Chi Chuan empty hand forms, postures, movements, or positions in ord
er of number of forms:
* 8 - Yang Standardized
* 8 - Chen Standardized
* 9 - Chen Old Frame (Master Liu Yong)
* 10 - Yang
* 12 - Yang
* 13 - Dong Yue (East Mountain) Combined
* 13 - Dong Yue (East Mountain) Combined Sword
* 16 - Yang Standardized
* 16 - Yang Standardized Sword
* 16 - Yang/Combined Standardized Spear
* 16 - Chen Standardized
* 18 - Chen Health Standardized Sword
* 18 - Chen (Grandmaster Chen Zheng Lei)
* 19 - Chen (Grandmaster Chen Xiao Wang)
* 23 - Chen Sabre
* 24 - Yang ( Simplified , Beijing , New Style ) Standardized]]
* 32 - Combined Form
* 32 - Yang/Combined Sword
* 32 - Chen Standardized "Fist" (New Frame)
* 34 - Wudang short
* 35 - Sun Standardized Short
* 36 - Chen Standardized (New Frame)
* 37 - Yang (Zheng, Cheng Man-ch ing) Short
* 38 - Chen (Grandmaster Chen Xiao Wang)
* 39 - Chen (Old frame 39)
* 39 - Chen (New frame 39)
* 40 - Yang competition
* 40 - Sun Family Modern Short Form
* 42 - Chen (Old form cannon fist)
* 42 - Combined Style Competition Form
* 42 - Sun Traditional Short
* 46 - Yang Competition
* 46 - Wu competition
* 48 - Combined [Old Competition Form before the 42 was developed]
* 49 - Chen Sword
* 49 - Yang Demo/Family competition
* 49 - Wu (Hao) short form
* 50 - Li short form
* 54 - Wu family competition
* 56 - Chen Competition
* 64 - Yang (Kuang Ping style)
* 66 - Combined Standardized (Lost, original content unknown)
* 72 - Chen (New Form Cannon Fist)
* 72 - Huang Sheng Shyan Form
* 73 - Sun Competition
* 74 - Chen(Old Frame, First Routine, Lao Jia Yi Lu)
* 81 - Wu (Hao) Old Form
* 83 - Chen New Form (Chen Village)
* 88 - Yang Standardized(- Appears to differ slightly from traditional forms of
similar length)
* 96 - Wu (Hao) long form
* 97/98 - Sun Traditional Long
* 103 - Yang long form (The moves can also add up to 85, 88, 108 or 150 dependin
g on how they are counted.)
* 108 - Taoist Tai Chi Society form
* 108 - Wu Chien-ch uan style long
* 119 - Wudang long
* 120 - Tchoung - Annotated Form
* 140 - Li form
* 229 - Tchoung - Long Form

Kuang Ping Style and Kung Fu Details

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[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 05-29-2001).]

quote:Originally posted by Audi:

Thanks for the correction,

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