JGB ON SLEEP AND DREAM

16 July 1951

Student: You said recently that if you are active during the day you
do not dream at night. I have thought about this and experimented
with it and obtained some material. Could you explain it further?
JGB: About seven years ago Mr Gurdjieff gave talks in Paris about
this for fifteen years I worked to learn how not to dream at night.
During these talks he explained that there is a certain transformation of
energy which can liberate us not only from dreams but also from
slavery to our associations.
There is a substance from which our own active force the

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active principle in us can be nourished. If we begin to struggle with

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ourselves with our own passive principle the effect is to divide
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this substance into three parts. One part is consumed in the struggle
itself. It is the attention which we have to use in order to work. The
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second part is not for us at all; it is needed for cosmic purposes. When
it is liberated by our struggles, it is radiated, and goes to its destined
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place. Only the third part remains for the growth of our own Being.
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This part can settle in us, and then it enables our Second Body to grow.
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Now this substance is produced in us anyhow, whether we

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transform it or not. If during the day we accomplish this

transformation, when we sleep at night our organism can rests properly
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and assimilate what is necessary for the growth of our Being. If we do

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not work to accomplish this transformation, some of the substance

remains unused, but its nature is that it cannot remain inactive. So
when we go to sleep it begins to combine and set in motion the
material of our associations chiefly those of the preceding days
experience. Out of these our dreams are made, and during the daytime
we find ourselves unable to liberate ourselves from automatic
associating.
It can even happen under certain conditions that in sleep this
substance can awaken the higher centres. Then people have dreams of
a special kind which are called higher emotional centre dreams.
Such dreams seem to people to have an enormous significance as if
they were revelations of some higher truth. In reality they may be
quite subjective, but their quality of importance and power comes from
the nature of the energy which enters into them. If people are not
warned against this, they can attach exaggerated value to such
experiences and imagine that they prove that something is being
achieved. It is really just the opposite, for if we are awake in our
sleep, we shall certainly be asleep in our waking state.
One very characteristic difference between Gurdjieffs teaching
and nearly all other current ideas about the possible inner development
of man, is that he teaches us to be on our guard against confusing
subjective experience with a real change of Being. Subjective
experiences can be very attractive; when they are the result of a higher

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energy, they give us a taste of a different world. At some stage in our

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work such experiences may even be necessary: to work without having
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any taste of what you are hoping to reach needs much courage. At the
same time, if subjective experiences are continued beyond their
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rightful purpose in giving us the foretaste I mentioned, they can be

very deceptive. It is one thing to have confidence that our goal is
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attainable, but if we begin to dream about the goal, the very force that
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is needed to attain it will be consumed in our dreams, and we shall get

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nowhere! I am sorry to say that this happens with many people who
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think they are on the way to Higher Being! What I have said about
dreams is also true about associations. Far too much energy
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sometimes very valuable energy goes into our associations, and even
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daydreaming. The result is that the very substance which is most

needed for the formation and growth of our Higher Bodies is lost to us
through associations by day and dreams at night.
Student: It seems to me from this that only if you are active all
through the day can you be certain that throughout the night you will
not dream.
JGB: Throughout the day is putting it too high. No, it is not so. We
have a certain possibility during that day say a pound of work we can
do. If we are active with most of that say fifteen ounces out of the
pound it will be all right. We shall not dream We cannot be active
for two pounds if we have only one pound of energy.
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 I can only speak from my own experience about this. If I find
that I have dreamt at night, I can usually look back at the previous day
and see something which I have neglected to do: even if it seemingly
has no connection with the dream. Yet I know from experience that it
is connected. Because I did not do that because I shirked that
particular effort I had a dream. Energy was not used actively;
therefore it was used passively.
Student: I have been trying to struggle with my daydreams, but I am
very bad at it and I could not do it for very long.
JGB: Of course you could not. You cannot do anything for very
long which is not automatic or mechanical. But if you wish to change

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you must make a start. Choose some task which will occupy your

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attention when you wish to stop daydreaming. Many years ago I

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stopped myself from daydreaming by constantly doing numerical
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calculations in my head. If I found myself walking about, or sitting on
a bus, or lying in bed at night not asleep, in order not to have
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daydreams or associations, I began doing calculations. You cannot do

this at once. It took me many years, but I stopped my daydreams in
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this way.
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Another way to take your attention away from daydreams is to

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bring it into your sensations. For example you can sit and sense your
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fingers one after another, without moving them your little finger,
then next finger and so on. You go on from one finger to another,
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making sure that you really have the sensation in each finger before
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you leave it. When you find you can do that, you try to have sensation
in each joint of each finger, one after another. I have also tried that for
a change. You have to find something for yourself. It is a struggle,
and it will not come in one month or two months. It may take years
before you can get rid of daydreams but, you will see, it is much less
tiring. If you allow yourself to have daydreams or associations it is
much more tiring than doing arithmetical problems or any other kind
of intentional work.
Student: But if I can think of something I will need next day, hasnt it
more value?

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JGB: No. If you allow yourself to think about what you have to do
tomorrow, you will soon fall into mechanical associations and
daydreaming. You must choose something which cannot go
automatically that means, something that does not arise from your
automatic interests and impulses. Planning your work for tomorrow is
quite a different task. It should not be done with one centre only, but
with two. And you must really plan. You must look ahead as exactly
as possible and then decide what you will do. Never spend much time
on that: ten or fifteen minutes are quite enough for the most difficult
problems of life! If you allow yourself to be concerned for very long
with what you are going to eat the next day, it will certainly become
mechanical. But if you try to solve simultaneous equations in your

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head, that is difficult. When you can solve simultaneous equations

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with two unknowns, then you take three, and then four, and so on.
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Everyone who wants to be free from daydreams has to find something
like these examples to work at.
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If you do not work at this, it is very hard to be free from night

dreams.
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Student: If one doesnt have night dreams, does it mean one has less
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energy?
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JGB: No. Maybe youre a normal person. It is abnormal a disease

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to have night dreams. You are very lucky. Be thankful. Only pray
you wont get them!
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Student: When you spoke earlier about sleep, you said prayer was
very important.
JGB: Mr. Gurdjieff advised us that, the last thing before we go to
sleep, it is good to occupy our minds or even our feelings with
something. In particular it is the best moment to pray for those who
have died whom we have loved. One evokes in oneself the clearest
memory one can of the person and directs towards them an impulse of
love from ourselves and the wish that it may be well with them.
Making this prayer just before we go to sleep is good for us. If we do
this sincerely, it uses up that energy which would give us dreams.