The Water Cooler PDF

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1. The Day of the Flag (0 replies)

2. Wartime Survival? (2 replies)
3. Best friend's sister got raped (18 replies)
4. why do you not include body armour to this forum? (2 replies)
5. Who out bid me? (0 replies)
6. History keeps repeating itself -- French railway sabotuers arrested (Interesting) (0 replies)
7. "Terrorist or not" French government to go after explosive websites (6 replies)
8. French websites provide interesting stories. (7 replies)
9. Glycerin and Salt Water Taffy (holiday treat) (5 replies)
10. "Underground Science" article (7 replies)
11. Kid arrested for guns, bombs, etc. (0 replies)
12. "Post whatever crap you want" Thread (46 replies)
13. Nader calls Obama an "Uncle Tom," Fox News offended. (5 replies)
14. Remember, remember, the 5th of November. (2 replies)
15. Randomness.... (4 replies)
16. "Chemical Demonstrations" by Shakashiri (3 replies)
17. Revolution (17 replies)
18. Human violence and dictatorships! (20 replies)
19. Amateur Chemistry= drugs and bombs (10 replies)
20. Incomplete Ebook - Kill Without Joy - John Minnery -- REWARD (3 replies)
21. the meaning of love and friendship (4 replies)
22. Who would win? - A hypothetical situation (21 replies)
23. Zeitgeist (3 replies)
24. Does anybody like this artwork? (43 replies)
25. $700B Bailout Plan Fails! (25 replies)
26. The truth about islam. (7 replies)
27. I'm pissed off with most of the people here. (16 replies)
28. Re: hard to place a title on this :D (44 replies)
29. The YouTube Dumbass Thread (19 replies)
30. Poor them.... (3 replies)
31. The end is near, the end is near? (2 replies)
32. computer security (10 replies)
33. Chicken Shit Blaster (7 replies)
34. Ordering from overseas... (34 replies)
35. You-Tube K3wl's fingertips blown off by "blasting cap" (5 replies)
36. Kid hits molotov cocktail with a baseball bat (27 replies)
37. Energetic Materials For Energy (12 replies)
38. DJVU to PDF converter troubles (8 replies)
39. Information Swap Alternatives (7 replies)
40. Fitness (14 replies)
41. Mind Reading Program (1 replies)
42. Forum video 2008 (1 replies)
43. Hoping for the return of the latter day edit feature and beautifying (9 replies)
44. Amateur chemist raided, for doing experiments! (17 replies)
45. Welcome to Stalin's USA (3 replies)
46. Funniest chemistry video (6 replies)
47. Anybody speak a little russian? (2 replies)
48. Friend accidentally shot himself....with a gun that I sold him. (6 replies)
49. Homemade.. idiot or badluck? (8 replies)
50. Happy Anniversary (7 replies)
51. What book(s) are you reading? (41 replies)
52. Global Population control. Why not? (48 replies)
53. Composition Equation (4 replies)
54. Randomness (4 replies)
55. Limestone Ammonium Nitrate (LAN) problem (13 replies)
56. Chemistry Game!!! (5 replies)
57. Indonesian Bombs (3 replies)
58. Ethyl nitrate (2 replies)
59. Music? (24 replies)
60. Absolutely Disgusting (13 replies)
61. Supreme Court Rules That Individuals Have Gun Right (5-4) (17 replies)
62. eBay and Chlorates... (8 replies)
63. Comedy legend dies at 71. (5 replies)
64. What a bastard! (9 replies)
65. What NOT To Do (31 replies)
66. Odd fertilizer worked for AN? (5 replies)
67. High School Graduation Resembles Saddam's Rise to Power (14 replies)
68. Thought police snatch kiddies. (12 replies)
69. Joining the French Foreign Legion (25 replies)
70. A question of thermodynamics. (5 replies)
71.
72.
69.
70.
71. Busy tonight (7 replies)
72. Rules? (2 replies)
73. Modified human marker (11 replies)
74. Sevoflurane (5 replies)
75. Cell phone tracking (40 replies)
76. Alternative/renewable fuels (7 replies)
77. Insidious "Purple Liquid": Deadly Cheerleaders Strike Again (21 replies)
78. Deadliest substances (10 replies)
79. This could come in handy? (2 replies)
80. Safety: Man Killed by 145 year old cannon ball (11 replies)
81. Railcar Implosion Video (2 replies)
82. Potassium Nitrate (1 replies)
83. WMD and AN (23 replies)
84. Do you believe everything happens for a reason? (20 replies)
85. Ricin Arrest (12 replies)
86. LSS License file? (8 replies)
87. Analysis of Nitrocellulose (6 replies)
88. Question (Relationship advice) (10 replies)
89. Some good news for the weekend. (1 replies)
90. Mentioning E&W in an Interview (11 replies)
91. Gun Protests Nationwide April 16th....Anyone have plans? (18 replies)
92. How to snare a thief (21 replies)
93. New Restrictions on Nitromethane in the U.S.? (7 replies)
94. -If- a NWO came, what would you do? (9 replies)
95. A Deer Just Killed my Car (16 replies)
96. How nbk2000 spent his spring break (5 replies)
97. Financial Depression Preparedness? (64 replies)
98. What would you do with this marvelous machine? (6 replies)
99. Fuck Kevin Rudd... (13 replies)
100. nitrocellulose problems (0 replies)
101. Rogue Science DVD... (38 replies)
102. Copying Banknotes (25 replies)
103. Breaking Bad (41 replies)
104. Oakleys and Foakleys (14 replies)
105. Guerrilla's Arsenal (7 replies)
106. Dissolving lead (5 replies)
107. Hallucinogens, The Essential Psychedelic Guide and LSD My Problem Child (1 replies)
108. What would YOU do with a centrifuge? (4 replies)
109. One of my old favorite: MN v. AK v. AR (20 replies)
110. Jews Pushing Hard To Criminalize Dissent, Especially Over The Internet (51 replies)
111. Nazi handgun! (4 replies)
112. Vista: Best of whats new or worst of whats wrong? (24 replies)
113. RDX Synthesis Problems ?? (4 replies)
114. Cheapass Faraday Cage (9 replies)
115. Guerilla style aerial bombing (4 replies)
116. Seymore Lecker - k3wL or Expert? (9 replies)
117. MgSO4 as a Desiccant/Best Desiccants (0 replies)
118. Adobe to release a freeware version of Photoshop (7 replies)
119. Compilation of Explosions (8 replies)
120. Getting Used to Nitro Headaches (5 replies)
121. Entropy definition (2 replies)
122. Aerospace Engineering / Forensic Science (8 replies)
123. Appeals Court Overturns D.C. Gun Ban (11 replies)
124. Determining the Grade of Graphite (0 replies)
125. Osama Back in Crosshairs? (18 replies)
126. What do you do when you are bored? (28 replies)
127. Rogue Science was down today? (31 replies)
128. Additives for chlorate/perchlorate cells (4 replies)
129. John Hutchinson (19 replies)
130. Hack attack on server of sciencemadness.org/talk (5 replies)
131. Acetone peroxide - HELP (5 replies)
132. Newbie "Adventures" (2 replies)
133. Teflon Sep. Funnel/Buret Stopcocks vs Glass (11 replies)
134. P Switching Script (9 replies)
135. Need Mathmatical Formula (16 replies)
136. Dangerous deadly weapon used in school! (13 replies)
137. Cannon (6 replies)
138. Blast box for camcorder (2 replies)
139. Spontaneous detonations (1 replies)
140. Possible ebay sting operation (16 replies)
141. HMTD making (14 replies)
142. 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP, 357 SIG vs Body Armor (8 replies)
143. Grenade Shelf Life (10 replies)
144. How to make M-80s, Cherry Bombs, & Silver Salutes. (7 replies)
145. Looking for a book review on "Boom -- Homemade Explosives" (11 replies)
146. what would do with if you found these (3 replies)
147. storing HMTD (3 replies)
148.
149.
146.
This is not147.
registered version of Total HTML Converter
148. The perfect book scanner (1 replies)
149. Amateur Local Weather Control (10 replies)
150. Interesting use of explosives (7 replies)
151. Inside ATM's (3 replies)
152. Sulfuric acid from nitric (5 replies)
153. UK Bombings (4 replies)
154. Australian Politics (1 replies)
155. Just the one post for me. (33 replies)
156. Pigs FUCKING SUCK! (38 replies)
157. Theoretical Revolutionary Strategies (72 replies)
158. It was the first time for me. (8 replies)
159. The Boston Bomb Squad at Work (7 replies)
160. A Interesting Realization. (5 replies)
161. Increase poison absorption? (2 replies)
162. Dangerous Briefcase (15 replies)
163. Spicy explosives (31 replies)
164. KIO3 - How good of an oxidizing agent is it? (0 replies)
165. Active Camouflage (2 replies)
166. House Explodes in Missouri City, TX (1 replies)
167. He's on a mission from God! (3 replies)
168. AgNO3 + S ---> Explode under hammer blow? (8 replies)
169. Easy Entry (8 replies)
170. Qantas bars man wearing 'Bush' T-shirt (21 replies)
171. Essential gear - You don't leave the house without...? (64 replies)
172. User details (10 replies)
173. Dihydrogen monoxide strikes again (13 replies)
174. Failure to properly store hazardous substances! (7 replies)
175. Unknown Liquid (25 replies)
176. BP blasting cap (18 replies)
177. Favourite commercial. (13 replies)
178. K3wl bashing (27 replies)
179. Bars Leaks Liquid Aluminum (16 replies)
180. What is a Dangermouse? (3 replies)
181. Help a know nothing. (3 replies)
182. What's your fetish? (47 replies)
183. I think I might be a very very lucky man (10 replies)
184. Dragon Eggs Compostion = HE? (4 replies)
185. Question on Ball Mills (27 replies)
186. Nitromethane Question (4 replies)
187. X:Y:Z KMnO4:Zn:S (16 replies)
188. Wound Profiles of Military Ammunition (23 replies)
189. Kill More Kids! (5 replies)
190. X Ray of Different Material (13 replies)
191. Nuclear Detonation In Space (10 replies)
192. Saddam is dead (72 replies)
193. Ouch that HURTS. Flash bites back (14 replies)
194. ATF Explosive Regulations? (4 replies)
195. NH4NO3 bomb detonator (7 replies)
196. Dvorak Simplifed Keyboard (10 replies)
197. Satellite Internet & Porn (21 replies)
198. information on lathes (11 replies)
199. whats inside (2 replies)
200. Potassium Chlorate Black powder? (11 replies)
201. Hot plate stirrers (0 replies)
202. Innovations in Robotics... (3 replies)
203. Electrical light socket wiring question (7 replies)
204. This can't be for real (14 replies)
205. Free download videos/docos/banned books/etc (3 replies)
206. Boiling Sulfuric acid (1 replies)
207. Robert Alberg/Kenneth Olsen (Ricin Manuf.) (3 replies)
208. One hundred most commonly found explosives. (0 replies)
209. EMP schematics (5 replies)
210. KNO3 for NH4NO3 (or NaNO3) and K2SO4 ? (13 replies)
211. Paranoia (12 replies)
212. Ammonium nitrate shelf life? (2 replies)
213. Who's a rat? (9 replies)
214. KNO3 Smoke Hazards (5 replies)
215. Cleaning my lab but have little time to make good chems disapear (11 replies)
216. BTNEC experiences? (1 replies)
217. Converting certain airsoft make/model guns to fire one or more fatal projectiles (4 replies)
218. Weird coming from the USA (6 replies)
219. A possible security breach notification!... (13 replies)
220. Research chemicals (23 replies)
221. Another Step Towards Totalitarianism (12 replies)
222. Totse rolls over on its k3wls (43 replies)
223. Guerilla Combat (2 replies)
224. New user with some questions on getting files (2 replies)
225.
226.
223.
This is not224.
225. Does Zaibatsu yet live? (6 replies)
226. Eliteforum - I find this very questionable (15 replies)
227. Uproar over youtube key bumping videos (5 replies)
228. A thought about an airgun gatling ... (1 replies)
229. New Look to Forum (4 replies)
230. DBC Pyrotechnics (2 replies)
231. Phenol from Toluene (1 replies)
232. Dreams (23 replies)
233. Todays rant : EDITED (3 replies)
234. Nuclear Batteries in laptops (12 replies)
235. Pranks? (16 replies)
236. The Hutchison Effect (5 replies)
237. God Bless Michael Richards AKA Kramer (26 replies)
238. We're saved! (2 replies)
239. KGB agent poisoned (47 replies)
240. New Forum Look (18 replies)
241. What do you do? (21 replies)
242. Obsolete Military Hardware (12 replies)
243. Robot sentinel (5 replies)
244. John A.Minnery who is it? (10 replies)
245. Estonian Security-related Document (0 replies)
246. Bit of related news (13 replies)
247. Another example of fearmongering (12 replies)
248. Nearly party time!! Whoohooooo!! (30 replies)
249. My Dog (12 replies)
250. Where To Buy Chemicals In The UK (15 replies)
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251. A little introduction (4 replies)

252. Monkeys are 6 times stronger than men (10 replies)
253. Kids Use AP for Revenge Attack in Australia (8 replies)
254. Los Alamos Primer (0 replies)
255. My PETN Synth.... (9 replies)
256. Not-so-non-lethal? (7 replies)
257. Can you identify this explosive?? (8 replies)
258. War Nerd on DIME(The metal dust explosive) (1 replies)
259. Your experience with lead styphnate (1 replies)
260. Potassium perchlorate (4 replies)
261. Meet the kings of KEWL... (15 replies)
262. Burying nitromethane (8 replies)
263. A little insight into the american education system (11 replies)
264. Discussion on Sabotage, and request. (17 replies)
265. Invisibility cloak (6 replies)
266. Mailing ammunition to the UK (45 replies)
267. Burns (10 replies)
268. A Russian member perhaps? (3 replies)
269. Soviet Agent Hides (6 replies)
270. I didn't expect it to start so soon. (6 replies)
271. Is this a joke or am I dreaming? (5 replies)
272. South Park makes a reference to "sheeple" (6 replies)
273. 18 months for making AP (26 replies)
274. Free International Calls (From USA Only) (2 replies)
275. Murder by Cancer (13 replies)
276. Best Organic Chem. Books/Texts (1 replies)
277. Changes to Australia's "security sensitive hazardous substances" legislation... (16 replies)
278. urushiol (2 replies)
279. If you died... (26 replies)
280. 'Video evidence, what video evidence?' (6 replies)
281. Liquid Dinitrogen Tetroxide (9 replies)
282. ATM Hacking (7 replies)
283. a car that drives itself (6 replies)
284. Swinging Dartmouth (2 replies)
285. The ball mill (8 replies)
286. The Great Escape (0 replies)
287. extracting sodium (16 replies)
288. Whats wrong with Rapidshare? (19 replies)
289. Great Firearms Racks! (1 replies)
290. LSD Being Tested on British Troops (20 replies)
291. A dream for America (2 replies)
292. WW2 Nazi tank found in near-pristine condition in a lake! (10 replies)
293. Im a rokker, yeah! (21 replies)
294. Best Gen Chem. Prof Ever! UNL Prof Arrested Over Distributing Explosives (9 replies)
295. ATF arrests evil Briton in Northern California (12 replies)
296. Recommendations on Hydraulic Presses (7 replies)
297. "Ingenious experiment" with lightning (2 replies)
298. 686 Book Flood . Keep the newbies busy (1 replies)
299. Candy Bar "Bomb" (17 replies)
300. Shooting in Dawson College (Montreal) (19 replies)
301. Ebook reader (2 replies)
302. Australian Members (25 replies)
303. Aviation Security (0 replies)
304. In pursuit of understanding (11 replies)
305. Dry Ice / Acetone "slush" (4 replies)
306. How about that "Bird Flu?" (5 replies)
307. Hand-held rocket launcher (11 replies)
308. Percussion Caps? (0 replies)
309. Opening shotgun shells (5 replies)
310. Delta Force ? (0 replies)
311. starting them young (11 replies)
312. frustrated attempt of HDN detonation....(sorry by fortuitous repeating of subject) (1 replies)
313. New OCR software, open source (3 replies)
314. Anti-Terrorism Expert Sneaks Explosives Aboard Plane (30 replies)
315. Police Arrest Teen Bombers - Drano bombers! (17 replies)
316. Cash, weapons, explosives seized in raid (6 replies)
317. improvised softair shotgun (6 replies)
318. Australian Teen Faces Explosives Charges for Chlorine Bomb (17 replies)
319. Conn. Student Heads To Court On Explosives Charge (5 replies)
320. Terrorist training manual (18 replies)
321.
322.
319.
This is not320.
321. Private forum and the downfall of Rapidshare links. (17 replies)
322. improvised chem equipment/junkyard style (7 replies)
323. Quick entry options (6 replies)
324. Covert Hostage Bomb Collar (1 replies)
325. Which Branch Of Military? (5 replies)
326. Cast TNT (6 replies)
327. Pure Ammonium Nitrate (15 replies)
328. Getting credit for uploads (1 replies)
329. Basic Fitness/Abilities (46 replies)
330. Material for mould? (2 replies)
331. PDF file 'fingerprints' (12 replies)
332. Drying hygroscopic chemicals (17 replies)
333. Legal Road to Explosives (5 replies)
334. Lets discuss the social dynamics of the movie "Fight Club" (26 replies)
335. On the Creation of a Country (38 replies)
336. Where do I start in this...thing of mine? (25 replies)
337. Judge orders online sale of Unabomber goods (6 replies)
338. Bombing cases often take longer to solve (8 replies)
339. Pipe Bomb Arrest (10 replies)
340. Amazon downloading group (5 replies)
341. Chinese alleged to harvest organs from Falun Gong practitioners (3 replies)
342. Support the Theatre (with explosions) (6 replies)
343. The conversion of model/toy guns. (0 replies)
344. Non-lethal devices (4 replies)
345. Want Help with Cell phone hacking (10 replies)
346. New weapons used in Lebanon (9 replies)
347. OCR'ing FTP (4 replies)
348. Favorite Music? (3 replies)
349. Poor Flash Performance (9 replies)
350. Lucid Dreaming (16 replies)
351. How long have you gone without sex?...hehe (41 replies)
352. ALPS Holo Problem (0 replies)
353. Torritos!!! (7 replies)
354. I never claimed to be a rightous addict... (1 replies)
355. Looking for find and copy software. (19 replies)
356. Book OCR issues (4 replies)
357. Something new to me.. (5 replies)
358. Idiots and AP (4 replies)
359. Liquefying air, or oxygen enriched air. (5 replies)
360. Interesting read (8 replies)
361. purple smoke (10 replies)
362. Para-Nitration of Toluene (1 replies)
363. Careers in pyrotechics/demolition... (10 replies)
364. vitamin c (6 replies)
365. White phosphorus... ampoule (5 replies)
366. Thermite Help! (13 replies)
367. Idiot (14 replies)
368. Methods of interrogation - forewarned is forearmed! (20 replies)
369. Duplicating UV markings (7 replies)
370. Picric acid synth overdone? Nitration buffs (6 replies)
371. Frying down power installation of a building/flat (6 replies)
372. What Weapon? (47 replies)
373. Misinformation: 4th of July. Wikipedia? (9 replies)
374. Join the Fireworks Alliance (3 replies)
375. Black powder not affected by static? (12 replies)
376. Clearing a building, quickly.....and quietly (24 replies)
377. Inert Atmosphere (6 replies)
378. Hello -- New to the Forum (4 replies)
379. The Sheeple have Bleated! (3 replies)
380. Affordable Ball Mill (5 replies)
381. Beginner explosives (28 replies)
382. Introduction and Book Offering (6 replies)
383. Rather esoteric handgun question (10 replies)
384. exiglue review (1 replies)
385. Federal Law favors us for once?! (16 replies)
386. KCl03 from match heads (12 replies)
387. Make a cheap electronic Detonator (3 replies)
388. Airsoft Ammo Sting Grenades (9 replies)
389. A Rather good day. (7 replies)
390. Guanidine Nitrate - C(NH2)3NO3 - Sensitizer Issues (2 replies)
391. Yowie/Bigfoot hunt (13 replies)
392. What happens?? (0 replies)
393. Hazards of Bleach > Chlorate? (4 replies)
394. homemade drying oven (6 replies)
395. Defcon 14 (5 replies)
396. Ripping copy-protected DVDs (7 replies)
397. editing posts... (2 replies)
398.
399.
396.
This is not397.
398. Boric to Nitric? (13 replies)
399. Offer to you: Bruker IR Introduction (1 replies)
400. Munitions Factory Explodes in South Australia (12 replies)
401. Simple Timed Fuse (3 min +) (6 replies)
402. Interesting site on pulsejets. (1 replies)
403. Legit breakins (8 replies)
404. Answer to Americas Army the Game? (16 replies)
405. Computer Tech of the Week (2 replies)
406. Pepper spray deployment (11 replies)
407. Government word watch list. (30 replies)
408. LICENCE FREE FIREARMS:europe loopholes (25 replies)
409. The Doors of Perception: (8 replies)
410. Fear, an effective deterant? (3 replies)
411. www.anarchistcookbook.com hacked (2 replies)
412. To Polverone... (0 replies)
413. Anonymous package delivery (7 replies)
414. Speeding up browsing (1 replies)
415. Importing silencers (18 replies)
416. Nanoenergetics (7 replies)
417. Rtpb? (5 replies)
418. Funny glitch on the site (0 replies)
419. 700 Ton ANFO charge to be set off (0 replies)
420. Women, Pyro & Related Hobbies (4 replies)
421. What's a good ebook reading device? (6 replies)
422. Magnesium Nitrate (2 replies)
423. Unusual search error (6 replies)
424. Britian monitoring EVERY car movement! (9 replies)
425. Best Food Ever! (39 replies)
426. Tritonal (3 replies)
427. Fuses in ww1 grenades (12 replies)
428. I gave a review to the planetary camera thing (0 replies)
429. Books available (2 replies)
430. Plans (6 replies)
431. A Warning (3 replies)
432. Posting Question (1 replies)
433. kno3 (1 replies)
434. What would you change? (6 replies)
435. Primary explosives from primers (1 replies)
436. problems with ANFO Explosives (3 replies)
437. Does anyone have a Rapidshare account? (6 replies)
438. double salts (0 replies)
439. Fake ID information on IRC (2 replies)
440. School Regulations (11 replies)
441. decrypting? (8 replies)
442. Thermite Fuel Air Explosive Devices aka Hellhounds (5 replies)
443. Prison Break. (56 replies)
444. Erythritol Tetranitrate (2 replies)
445. AP filtering (3 replies)
446. servus (0 replies)
447. newbie introduction (3 replies)
448. Tor anonymous internet network (1 replies)
449. Nitroglycerin in detonators (4 replies)
450. Online Ordering?? (0 replies)
451. Tannerite targets detonation (1 replies)
452. Attacked! (24 replies)
453. Nicotine (4 replies)
454. Ninja rocks?? (9 replies)
455. Security measures on my next computer? (51 replies)
456. A new explosive (8 replies)
457. Peroxide and carbon? (2 replies)
458. Ways to mislead/stop police dogs 2? (6 replies)
459. What would you put in an emergency kit (41 replies)
460. FICTION: NBK - Escape from Dreamland (1 replies)
461. US plans to "fight" (censor) the net revealed: (6 replies)
462. Little Spudgun + Crossbow Session (0 replies)
463. mosler safe info (1 replies)
464. I had a dream... (1 replies)
465. I used to think alcohol was difficult to buy... (2 replies)
466. Problems seeing posts (1 replies)
467. Ripping Google Books (2 replies)
468. EMP Hard Drive Cleaner (38 replies)
469. NBK asked me... (5 replies)
470. The Crucible (10 replies)
471. The Triumphant Return of Megalomania (13 replies)
472. What is a "K3Wl"? (3 replies)
473. The "Anti-Pyrotechnics" Movement (10 replies)
474. Abnormal Picric Acid (5 replies)
475.
476.
473.
This is not474.
475. Survival and Austere Medicine (2 replies)
476. Time to start preparing for the end of 2005.... (0 replies)
477. Pharmaceuticals? (0 replies)
478. Iron oxide from iron filings (0 replies)
479. Underwater AP cratermakers (11 replies)
480. Score: Nazis 24, Negros 0 (10 replies)
481. George Carlin on New Orleans: (7 replies)
482. New FTP hosting (0 replies)
483. APC gone soft???!!! (5 replies)
484. The preparatory manual of explosives by Jared Ledgard (10 replies)
485. oGame (1 replies)
486. Forum archive (7 replies)
487. How useful is N-butyl acetate? (0 replies)
488. Roguesci forbidden in Germany? (0 replies)
489. PeerGuardian 2 (1 replies)
490. Blair bans certain websites! (3 replies)
491. So, who on here is an English major? (10 replies)
492. Who started roguescience.org? (18 replies)
493. Strange experience logging in (55 replies)
494. Why so little discussion? (93 replies)
495. Crypto-Ransom Virus (26 replies)
496. Video surveillance (32 replies)
497. Star Wars, Episode 3 SUXS! (31 replies)
498. Looking for external laptop battery (7 replies)
499. Products for Engineers & The Fellow Who Lives in my Corner (17 replies)
500. Future of oil (17 replies)

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Pages : 1 2 [3] 4 5
501. Equation needs balancing (5 replies)

502. And now for some comic relief... (9 replies)
503. 07/04/05 (37 replies)
504. A Use for the Self-Decrypting PGP Utility (11 replies)
505. Banned emails (59 replies)
506. FICTION: The Job, Part 2 (2 replies)
507. The $100,000 book rip-off (24 replies)
508. FICTION: NBK - The Dark Lord (23 replies)
509. Mixture of Greek Fire (21 replies)
510. PGP Secure-Wipe Failure (26 replies)
511. HE incendiary (11 replies)
512. The New Pope was a Nazi! (44 replies)
513. A Guide to Internet Flaming (56 replies)
514. nitration of aromatic substrates in zeolite cages (2 replies)
515. Should I get a Blog? (46 replies)
516. Lightning Projectors and Railguns without Rails? (23 replies)
517. beginnings? (23 replies)
518. IP address spoofing. (41 replies)
519. Raise your glasses in a toast to Myrol (47 replies)
520. Modifying Airgun's esp. for German's! (42 replies)
521. Crime-Time Television (59 replies)
522. Dinosaur flesh discovered! (20 replies)
523. Chlorinated dioxane on par with nerve gasses? (5 replies)
524. Safe Identification and Defeat Guide (57 replies)
525. Diphosgene (2 replies)
526. Isobutylidene diurea 31-0-0 (2 replies)
527. Wiping the Firefox cache (11 replies)
528. Picric Acid; Paper Dye for Love Letters! (29 replies)
529. Acetone peroxide: worth the risk? (3 replies)
530. Humor: Top 100 things If I was Ruler of the World (29 replies)
531. Synthetikal - a new chemistry forum (2 replies)
532. Hostage situations (87 replies)
533. Potassium Chlorate method guidance needed (2 replies)
534. Letter John Cleese to the USA (50 replies)
535. Good for a laugh (26 replies)
536. Defeating Airport X-Ray (58 replies)
537. Some ugly accident pictures (0 replies)
538. I'll be away for the next months (2 replies)
539. P2P securely (2 replies)
540. Lets all get our 'counterterrorism' degrees from university (19 replies)
541. Military propaganda in schools (54 replies)
542. Chimeric Breeders (155 replies)
543. Mad Science (2 replies)
544. some silver fulminate (1 replies)
545. Cold Fusion, Looks like it isn't Si-Fi anymore!! (52 replies)
546. Media stunts (5 replies)
547. Removing -Cl gently (5 replies)
548. Need help with my mathematics (AP related) (4 replies)
549. RE factor of ANNM and other explosives (0 replies)
550. Gmail account (19 replies)
551. mmm....beer (10 replies)
552. MNN and MNT nitration ratios (1 replies)
553. Another visitor... stay a while... stay forever. (1 replies)
554. 3M Security Glass (24 replies)
555. SmarTruck - how to spend silly money to get a toy (5 replies)
556. High School Chemistry demo (4 replies)
557. Video file splitter (5 replies)
558. Guncotton the Crappy way (16 replies)
559. PGP Changing. (6 replies)
560. 40mm grenade pistol (8 replies)
561. ANFO with Tolouene or Xylene as sensitizer? (7 replies)
562. safety distances (27 replies)
563. fake IDs (4 replies)
564. Perry's Chemical Engineers' Handbook 7th edition (0 replies)
565. Mercury fulminate question (8 replies)
566. Anyone from Norway? (4 replies)
567. Hello Big Brother. (12 replies)
568. Grandpa's blasting mix? (9 replies)
569. Bringing home the guns (11 replies)
570. Woodworking stuff for the FTP? (4 replies)
571.
572.
569.
This is not570.
571. From crossbows to cryptography (4 replies)
572. Am-241, Smoke Detectors, and Nuclear Weapons (6 replies)
573. Computer question (12 replies)
574. Looking for a Keylogger (1 replies)
575. I need help with my future! (14 replies)
576. copwatch.com (2 replies)
577. Carnivore is no more (1 replies)
578. hydrogen peroxide synthesis ??? (0 replies)
579. Suicide soon (120 replies)
580. A math problem stuck in my head (3 replies)
581. government is scared of FAEs (5 replies)
582. question for Mn2O7 (4 replies)
583. Need two books if anyone has a link. (4 replies)
584. Firefox (10 replies)
585. Airgun + Coilgun? (1 replies)
586. N-Tetrachloroethylene Diamine (1 replies)
587. Quest for longest chemical name (5 replies)
588. Say No to Grandpa Joe (4 replies)
589. Looking for file replacement tool (3 replies)
590. What would you do if ...? (3 replies)
591. NG accident- need advice (5 replies)
592. RDX from urotropine (1 replies)
593. D2O, Heavy water distillation (5 replies)
594. Before you post.... (0 replies)
595. HPLC software help needed (0 replies)
596. URGENT: How to register restorer2000 (7 replies)
597. favorite song/favorite band thread (61 replies)
598. Greetings and a quick question (4 replies)
599. Virus Problem (11 replies)
600. trenchcoat self defense (7 replies)
601. KNO3 in Australia (0 replies)
602. KewL Hunting (2 replies)
603. The E&W bit torrent... (4 replies)
604. Urea Formaldehyde (2 replies)
605. DMNB - spoofing C4 from a particular source. (2 replies)
606. azodicarbonamide (1 replies)
607. What did you get for xmass? (12 replies)
608. The Paranormal (37 replies)
609. Brown Noise (13 replies)
610. ANAl (amonium nitrate:aluminum) (10 replies)
611. Potassium/Sodium Chlorate + Vaseline (Petroleum Jelly) (4 replies)
612. The Great Phonecard Scam (3 replies)
613. The Plague! (9 replies)
614. SW Wanted : SystematiChem (2 replies)
615. Killer: live role playing game (4 replies)
616. suprnova is gone (0 replies)
617. How and where to start? (3 replies)
618. I have a photoshop quandary (2 replies)
619. Need a terabyte of email? (8 replies)
620. Can anyone translate Czechian? (2 replies)
621. Secure your Computer (12 replies)
622. MenuEdit Registration Needed (4 replies)
623. Fake Documents: A Report on BBC (4 replies)
624. Translations (0 replies)
625. Roguesci unofficial FTP - testing phase (3 replies)
626. ChemOffice Ultra 2005 (1 replies)
627. Software requests... Please lend a hand :) (6 replies)
628. Conversion Calculators Online (3 replies)
629. where's the hive (6 replies)
630. Propane and butane... (6 replies)
631. Parcel Post (4 replies)
632. Did you know? (51 replies)
633. Fd up movies (80 replies)
634. ossible bandwith-illimited solution to share files for all roguesci member (7 replies)
635. Software request: any of the CABO databases (1 replies)
636. Full Auto .22 Sub Machine Gun, Silenced... (7 replies)
637. AW ban over but opposition conducting tests... (6 replies)
638. Stupid and hilarious e-mail (4 replies)
639. Patron Saint of Explosives (5 replies)
640. Stab or Slash? (22 replies)
641. Firetruck Flamethrower (2 replies)
642. Detonating Thermite.. (7 replies)
643. Anybody we know? (3 replies)
644. Psychoanalyze Yourself! (14 replies)
645. Is the 380 tons in Iraq the smoking gun to AQ? (0 replies)
646. The Problem with FTP's (4 replies)
647. Half-Life 2 on the way :) (19 replies)
648.
649.
646.
This is not647.
648. Uses of Mercury? (16 replies)
649. Message to NBK (2 replies)
650. CNC (or G code) help....please? (10 replies)
651. translation software (5 replies)
652. hi (4 replies)
653. alternative file sharing (1 replies)
654. Did you vote today? (54 replies)
655. hushmail and others (4 replies)
656. The end of the Oil Age (18 replies)
657. "Modex Hybrid"??? (1 replies)
658. Wi-Fi "Bomb" draws authorities (4 replies)
659. Tetrameric Acetone Peroxide (5 replies)
660. improvised fuse (1 replies)
661. Brisancy? (20 replies)
662. Chem lab. (3 replies)
663. EFP tutorial?? (2 replies)
664. Dumb question about Roguesci homepage. (3 replies)
665. 350 TONS RDX, HMX, PETN in the wind! (18 replies)
666. storing gasoline and diesel (9 replies)
667. Aussie mans house raided for ordering books online (1 replies)
668. Arguments relating to religion (29 replies)
669. ftp/e-mail subscription (0 replies)
670. The Complete Metalsmith (0 replies)
671. .zip file password cracker (9 replies)
672. Newcomer's Ftp (0 replies)
673. The skunkworks (15 replies)
674. Bike Thieves (6 replies)
675. Sulfuric in Oz (8 replies)
676. Help on units of concentration please? (2 replies)
677. Any ex/military in the forum? (13 replies)
678. The Ig Nobel Prizes for 2004 have been announced! (0 replies)
679. Ansari X prize (8 replies)
680. question on rating members (8 replies)
681. Phosgene and chloropicrin in Bratislava (0 replies)
682. An interesting conspiracy site (1 replies)
683. wanted: dongle crack for spartan 04 (2 replies)
684. wanted: The Combined Chemical Dictionary 2002 (3 replies)
685. McDonalds "Bombed" by irate k3wls! (13 replies)
686. hitman (0 replies)
687. painful creativity request (4 replies)
688. toxicity (9 replies)
689. Purchasing and Owning Land Anonymously (7 replies)
690. The most brisant cracker ! (13 replies)
691. Suggestions for a graphics card for video editing (22 replies)
692. Loyalty Day? (0 replies)
693. Time for a PC reformat :( (5 replies)
694. A problem with Smokeless Powder (NC) (7 replies)
695. Tables (3 replies)
696. Bush - Kerry election parody (5 replies)
697. 9/11 Third Anniversary Today (15 replies)
698. Australian Embassy bombing (27 replies)
699. Ballon Incendiary (3 replies)
700. Curiousity Only (3 replies)
701. AP matches (6 replies)
702. Google Search Tips (5 replies)
703. just another way of anonymous file transfer (0 replies)
704. anonymous blog (2 replies)
705. anonymous mail (1 replies)
706. anonymous chatting (1 replies)
707. anonymous browsing (1 replies)
708. Yodel Bank - transferring money anonymously (3 replies)
709. US plans portable nuclear power plants (11 replies)
710. Freenet - A Free Net (11 replies)
711. Let me see if i can post or not... (0 replies)
712. what exactly is that makes you into this stuff? (17 replies)
713. The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives. (10 replies)
714. Implosion type FAE (18 replies)
715. Who wanna pay for free information? weaponscombat.com (1 replies)
716. Of axt and liars (0 replies)
717. problems posting and changing password (2 replies)
718. roguesci tshirts to raise money (20 replies)
719. LMAO at this one. (4 replies)
720. My new page on Oxy-hydrogen explosions (4 replies)
721. Peer Guardian (0 replies)
722. Its a Boy! (4 replies)
723. Decomposing monoammonium phosphate? (3 replies)
724. Zinc Chloride Solubility (7 replies)
725.
726.
723.
This is not724.
725. Xload's site (1 replies)
726. Now that things are stable again...... (8 replies)
727. Script problems? (0 replies)
728. torrents (5 replies)
729. Nut with an armored bulldozer... (2 replies)
730. Pathetic and Hipocritical Laws (7 replies)
731. n3ver 2 0ld 2 B k3wl- (3 replies)
732. Tetrahydrofuran in Oz. (2 replies)
733. A quick question for robin (or anyone else who might know) (0 replies)
734. Nitro accident (non-explosive) - HELP ! (8 replies)
735. Formaldehyde from Hexamine (1 replies)
736. Port of Texas, anyone? (1 replies)
737. Nitrazine (1 replies)
738. What's your favorite "man-church"/tool-store? (9 replies)
739. EOD in Iraq (2 replies)
740. Ready.gov parody (3 replies)
741. Acetone Peroxide Through Ozone (10 replies)
742. Development in Iraq (6 replies)
743. Chinese Alchemy ??? (9 replies)
744. Nick berg terrorist video (53 replies)
745. Body disposal (42 replies)
746. Gelled acetone/nc? (4 replies)
747. Summer is Fireworks Season (9 replies)
748. Good for nitration or not? (5 replies)
749. Look at this bullshit [plagerism alert] (26 replies)
750. Helo kills - Thermal Imaging view... (Graphic) (32 replies)

Log in
Pages : 1 2 3 [4] 5
751. DEA Agent Shot Himself - whoops (20 replies)

752. Good source of Mg? (8 replies)
753. Terrorists and AN restrictions (8 replies)
754. Secret Service taking Job to new levels (5 replies)
755. I see dead people (28 replies)
756. Nice "I Love Explosives" Decal (0 replies)
757. Anybody know how to edit djvu files? (5 replies)
758. Knives, the Real Steel. (19 replies)
759. Decent Piece of Iraqi Home-engineering (3 replies)
760. Slashdot: This Robot Collects Fingerprints (0 replies)
761. Police Foil Bank Robber's Scuba Getaway (14 replies)
762. Binary Cracker. (5 replies)
763. Entomopter: Exploration or Espionage of the Future? (2 replies)
764. Detonation Films (1 replies)
765. In search of opinions...APWAX? (15 replies)
766. Black book of arson by Lyle Whitney (4 replies)
767. How to increase your AP yield... (13 replies)
768. Ghost town (25 replies)
769. slaughterhouse (Question) (13 replies)
770. New Identity (3 replies)
771. Perhaps the dumbest thing ever with a 25 shot cake! (1 replies)
772. Are rockets legal in Australia? (4 replies)
773. 3.5 tonnes of stolen ammonium nitrate in Australia (6 replies)
774. Potash of Ammonium Nitrate (3 replies)
775. 660 kg of dynamite and 5000 detonators under your bed? (7 replies)
776. Metal additives in dynamites (6 replies)
777. A little close for comfort (18 replies)
778. Magnesium Extraction From Epsom Salts (8 replies)
779. Explosive Enthusiasts say the darndest things..... (19 replies)
780. Replicas and their sizes (6 replies)
781. Look out, it's more BS from Australia's tabloids (6 replies)
782. The Forum has been ATTACKED! (4 replies)
783. Improvised fridge (7 replies)
784. Booby traps (3 replies)
785. Hexachlorobenzene (7 replies)
786. Making the Ultimate Suit of Body Armor (6 replies)
787. aeroponics or aero-hydroponics (1 replies)
788. More Stable AP? No Way! (7 replies)
789. Microwave Concentration of Hydrogen Peroxide Lab (12 replies)
790. Do you get the subliminal message? (4 replies)
791. Giving up your DNA ? (3 replies)
792. Light in the water (8 replies)
793. testing KNO3 (9 replies)
794. a few quick issues (6 replies)
795. How would you... (2 replies)
796. Forum woes and impending doom. (17 replies)
797. E-Books... (5 replies)
798. power labs (1 replies)
799. PETN charges-amounts needed to do the job (7 replies)
800. Bionics - Robotic legs (0 replies)
801. Book request: Build your own fuel cells (6 replies)
802. Dmso=msm (2 replies)
803. Kewls and Cakes (3 replies)
804. Phone Sex (2 replies)
805. fall-out (of hair that is) (5 replies)
806. Annm +al (7 replies)
807. Historical K3\/\/ |_ ness (0 replies)
808. fistloads (9 replies)
809. Searching for a M72 66mm Law Rocket (8 replies)
810. AP used in bread making?? (7 replies)
811. A short guide to "tagging" (3 replies)
812. basic chem know-how ? (7 replies)
813. Oxygen on the Sun? (7 replies)
814. About Madrid's bombs (24 replies)
815. A request (1 replies)
816. EOD school pics (11 replies)
817. Physics experiment (9 replies)
818. My greetings, hello to the NeWb post. (7 replies)
819. Good news (5 replies)
820. Please help! How does this beautiful magic trick work? (1 replies)
821.
822.
819.
This is not820.
821. Does someones want to correspond with me ? (2 replies)
822. How to throw knifes ? (9 replies)
823. Plucking Video (6 replies)
824. An white smoke (0 replies)
825. Jackasses of the Month (7 replies)
826. Anatomy of a Firework (2 replies)
827. Financing your life (1 replies)
828. Pernitric acid (1 replies)
829. how bad is google being censored? (13 replies)
830. KNO3 -> KClO3 question (3 replies)
831. Dogs (2 replies)
832. basic/newbies gide to distilling nitric acid (5 replies)
833. Iron Titanium Oxide (4 replies)
834. Lego (12 replies)
835. Sodium/potassium chlorate preparation? (1 replies)
836. An/mnn/c (1 replies)
837. Train Explosion in Iran (1 replies)
838. Voluntary Human Extinction (6 replies)
839. Glycerin (1 replies)
840. Copper (II) Permanganate (2 replies)
841. Extracting Red Phosphorus (6 replies)
842. Kids party ideas (15 replies)
843. Aluminum Powder (KMnO4/Al/S Flash) (8 replies)
844. Huge Meth Lab Bust Video (5 replies)
845. Get them while you can... (0 replies)
846. Help Save The Second Amendment (1 replies)
847. Largest (20 replies)
848. Buying/Finding Glassware (7 replies)
849. basic fiream care qurestion (7 replies)
850. Piracy Raids In Australia (0 replies)
851. Brainwashing Manual (0 replies)
852. Has someone on the forum been up to no good? (4 replies)
853. One time encryption (4 replies)
854. Hamas, PLO and the tactics used (5 replies)
855. Can you help? (2 replies)
856. Massive EGDN yeilds? (3 replies)
857. So you think you're good at math? (16 replies)
858. Caveman Chemistry (1 replies)
859. GE Plant for landmine location (6 replies)
860. The copy of Call Of Duty that's on the FTP (14 replies)
861. "Helping" someone lose their job. (13 replies)
862. How to POST images. (7 replies)
863. Ballistic Sheeting (11 replies)
864. the dumbest question ever (4 replies)
865. non-conical/hemispherical SC's (1 replies)
866. acetic anhydride (8 replies)
867. source of dimethyl aniline (2 replies)
868. The ultimate SC (2 replies)
869. Possible performance enhances for Zn+S (3 replies)
870. What to do if you get hurt (1 replies)
871. The Post Office (11 replies)
872. samosa's Deep Thought (14 replies)
873. Digital Scales (9 replies)
874. car (borrowing) with t.v remote (2 replies)
875. South African Members (0 replies)
876. Street Lights = Grow Lights? (19 replies)
877. Diesel (22 replies)
878. NH4ClO4 Based eplosives ? (0 replies)
879. 2nd newbie kno3 question (13 replies)
880. Chlorine+Alcohol+12 year olds=hurt (10 replies)
881. Cant Find them.... (8 replies)
882. Nitro Acid HNO3 (10 replies)
883. CAD Program (21 replies)
884. ittle known facts of Napalm (9 replies)
885. Legality (18 replies)
886. Home made nuclear device (53 replies)
887. Nano Thermites! (12 replies)
888. Rogue Science (7 replies)
889. diphe/nilethane di/isocianato (6 replies)
890. petn by H2SO4 + AN (8 replies)
891. Interesting Videos (27 replies)
892. Converting .mov to any other format (2 replies)
893. Magic Lantern (2 replies)
894. First use of land mines? (1 replies)
895. Idiot of the month (28 replies)
896. Cruise Missle Man Arrested in NZ? (5 replies)
897. PARTAL detonation (7 replies)
898.
899.
896.
This is not897.
898. Apache Sniping (19 replies)
899. newbie kno3 question (2 replies)
900. Blast chamber (4 replies)
901. where to post about mailign stuff? (6 replies)
902. looking for italians members! (1 replies)
903. Myrol and nitroesters (1 replies)
904. Car Bomb detonated in Sydney (44 replies)
905. Nitric acid (4 replies)
906. Optimizing Black Powder for cannons, mortars, or pyrotechnics (14 replies)
907. My new computer! (24 replies)
908. Visco fuse (1 replies)
909. Oxygen (6 replies)
910. HELP-hopelessly stuck with AP (17 replies)
911. Two possible lead Azide replacements? (7 replies)
912. Einstein's Riddle (13 replies)
913. Where to get the components for Bp in england? (20 replies)
914. Your, Trigger/Motivation/Inspiration (20 replies)
915. Leaving all my loves behind (64 replies)
916. The surreal US security machine (20 replies)
917. Alcohol and Distilleries (3 replies)
918. The profecy is true (17 replies)
919. Looking for diagrams... (2 replies)
920. PGP Unsafe? (28 replies)
921. Aluminum Sulphate (0 replies)
922. Dog grabs firework video (9 replies)
923. The Sopranos (4 replies)
924. 11 year old in UK arrested over treehouse... (11 replies)
925. Ramjet Design Discussion (7 replies)
926. Storing Explosives....I know its stupid... (27 replies)
927. Can us n00bz still post? (5 replies)
928. Hackthissite.org (29 replies)
929. Military Ammo Case (12 replies)
930. What does RTPB mean? (3 replies)
931. The origin of the Grinch. (18 replies)
932. Whats everyone got planned for new years eve? (31 replies)
933. New ruger 10/22 (11 replies)
934. Det cord in the concrete (7 replies)
935. Kewls on tape! (52 replies)
936. HNO3 Synth using HCl (3 replies)
937. Underground Bunker made by myself (23 replies)
938. Someone help me out here, Zeolites... (4 replies)
939. Nigger manual (135 replies)
940. Isopropyl peroxide? (0 replies)
941. AP mass production (2 replies)
942. Aluminum+Pyrodex (10 replies)
943. Learning to Drive (20 replies)
944. What ever happened to FTP Disks (1 replies)
945. Urban Survival (16 replies)
946. giant fountain w/ whistle comp? (6 replies)
947. MSN Encryption Plugin (10 replies)
948. Indestructible eh? (48 replies)
949. test (10 replies)
950. RTPB's (25 replies)
951. Blow gun dart poison (20 replies)
952. Testing of unknown explosives (9 replies)
953. DIY Cruise Missile Grounded (31 replies)
954. Carbon Rods (5 replies)
955. Nitro paint-explosive? (13 replies)
956. cal hypo and sugar (4 replies)
957. Ammoniumperchlorate (9 replies)
958. The Scan Scam (25 replies)
959. How to calculate critical mass for fissionable materials? (11 replies)
960. Ammonium Dichromate (6 replies)
961. 6.00 for a lb of Citric Acid? (5 replies)
962. my god i remember ironwarlock (5 replies)
963. Google knows best? (8 replies)
964. hexamine dinitrate and nitromethane (1 replies)
965. Chem Software (3 replies)
966. Radio Match 2 (1 replies)
967. Sound in relation to depth of a charge of APAN (11 replies)
968. Permanganate Synthesis (13 replies)
969. Different coloured iron oxide? (2 replies)
970. Does anyone know whats happening to my account? (5 replies)
971. New UK Fireworks Laws (13 replies)
972. Michael Moore (37 replies)
973. SImple HV transformer for NItric acid production (6 replies)
974. Forum Customs (7 replies)
975.
976.
973.
This is not974.
975. about kingspaz (30 replies)
976. Persulfates (Peroxydisulfates) (14 replies)
977. Welcome member 5000! (10 replies)
978. multishot barrel loaded guns and mortors weapon (6 replies)
979. What explosive next? (10 replies)
980. any weapon plans for a .308 (6 replies)
981. Newbee (2 replies)
982. Take a look (22 replies)
983. Any Brits Here ? ( special request ) (3 replies)
984. EOD Career (15 replies)
985. "Useless thread" (9 replies)
986. what book (16 replies)
987. Commiserations to all the Aussies out there! (4 replies)
988. Using AP and AN (1 replies)
989. Mega's Story (15 replies)
990. 1st go at AP, gone well (4 replies)
991. Car bomb Crater sizes (Bali nuke?) (11 replies)
992. Creating a ftp community (10 replies)
993. Whats it to be sir? (35 replies)
994. Reliable improvised fuse - Howto (3 replies)
995. Wheel of Time #10 Crossroads of Twilight (3 replies)
996. jpeg encryption (5 replies)
997. Cardboard Tubes (4 replies)
998. Cost: low explosive vs high explosive (8 replies)
999. E&W Private network(Wireless) (14 replies)
1000. Protecting data? Physically hide it?! (25 replies)

Log in
Pages : 1 2 3 4 [5]
1001. [un]Offical Forum Flame Form (13 replies)

1002. Molotov related chemical (4 replies)
1003. War on information? (12 replies)
1004. Pharmacy drug index (3 replies)
1005. Howdy All New to Forum (3 replies)
1006. silver and coper (3 replies)
1007. PGP Disk- More than 1 password (7 replies)
1008. Shimizu's Fireworks, The Art, Science & Technique (4 replies)
1009. drugs (10 replies)
1010. Skin Windows! (13 replies)
1011. remote detonation (3 replies)
1012. Sexual Pyro Arousal (1 replies)
1013. PDF creation? (3 replies)
1014. Pyro laws in florida (0 replies)
1015. What has been your worst accident? (175 replies)
1016. organic synth via electronics (0 replies)
1017. HE explosions (6 replies)
1018. safety of P2P software (1 replies)
1019. Firecrackers (13 replies)
1020. Is it just me, or does Jackass suck? (33 replies)
1021. Halloween fun.... (20 replies)
1022. Imprinting keys... (1 replies)
1023. Hillmans site (4 replies)
1024. Pgp (11 replies)
1025. Small furry creatures ---> Red Mist (34 replies)
1026. Impurities and dyes in Drain H2SO4 (4 replies)
1027. Michael Ammar's "The Crazy Man's Handcuffs" (3 replies)
1028. H2SO4 Accident (4 replies)
1029. Getting shot with a spud gun and the human response (24 replies)
1030. My IP is banned? (14 replies)
1031. Making acetaldehyde or formaldehyde (9 replies)
1032. Safety issues (18 replies)
1033. private investigation (5 replies)
1034. Vote Arnold (funny) (0 replies)
1035. stolen bike (3 replies)
1036. Searching Tips (6 replies)
1037. shit distillation (3 replies)
1038. My precious EMC (5 replies)
1039. TAG and Potassium Nitrate (3 replies)
1040. Can't be just coinsedence.... (3 replies)
1041. More Airport Idiocies (4 replies)
1042. acid and base strength of alcohols (3 replies)
1043. solubility problem (1 replies)
1044. How did you come up with your forum name? (113 replies)
1045. Drop Pops (3 replies)
1046. stuck stoppers (6 replies)
1047. two questions (1 replies)
1048. how I got REAL detos cases (6 replies)
1049. A new gun (14 replies)
1050. CrO3 Ideas? (4 replies)
1051. Detonating Chlorates (7 replies)
1052. RDX by acetic and para (11 replies)
1053. hypobromites (8 replies)
1054. Mr-Eckted is back (1 replies)
1055. copper ammonium complex? (2 replies)
1056. Does It Really Matter? (9 replies)
1057. Creating a FTP server (1 replies)
1058. Snow Machine (6 replies)
1059. AP newbie questions (9 replies)
1060. Where do you want to go from here? (11 replies)
1061. Modified Haber Process (3 replies)
1062. Vestas (strike anywhere matches) (4 replies)
1063. Basketball Bomb (2 replies)
1064. glossary? (3 replies)
1065. anyone have VB6 professional edition or better (16 replies)
1066. Nukes....good or bad..? (16 replies)
1067. Looking for Windows 3.1 (8 replies)
1068. H2SO4 Question (2 replies)
1069. Fruit of Death? (5 replies)
1070. Phosphoric Acid (4 replies)
1071.
1072.
1069.
1070.
1071. Brits: Looking for a job? (2 replies)
1072. milk white NG (3 replies)
1073. Last call forumites (3 replies)
1074. A few questions regarding PGP (2 replies)
1075. German demo group "Farbrausch" kicks ass ! (3 replies)
1076. Greatest Disappointments (6 replies)
1077. forum file sharing (10 replies)
1078. Your Forum member number (6 replies)
1079. The Great Google Hunt (35 replies)
1080. Question on Forum History (RTC) (9 replies)
1081. smuggling help (24 replies)
1082. Sulfuric Acid Absolute Gravity (8 replies)
1083. Help please (5 replies)
1084. An (3 replies)
1085. I need some feedback (9 replies)
1086. It's not good to brag but... (16 replies)
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1096. would it be possible to break the roots of my garden cherry tree with blackpowder? (17 replies)
1097. Message for NBK (2 replies)
1098. Sodium Chlorate paper propellant (11 replies)
1099. Looking for powerpoint (3 replies)
1100. Anti or Pro-capitalist? (54 replies)
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1106. Some hunting pictures of mine. (10 replies)
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1112. americas army shareware !!!!!!! (6 replies)
1113. Fire starters (not magnesium based) (9 replies)
1114. New York Blackout (18 replies)
1115. A Wild Idea for Tactical Insertions... (22 replies)
1116. Microsoft - They're watching you (52 replies)
1117. Military explosive with insitu formed detonator (11 replies)
1118. Cheerio guys (1 replies)
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1120. Forum meeting (42 replies)
1121. Exploding Ink Tab (5 replies)
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1123. Test your pearl swag skills! :) (22 replies)
1124. Films and songs... (66 replies)
1125. Visco Fuse & Whiny Jews (32 replies)
1126. useful for distiling nitric (2 replies)
1127. precursors molecular images for megalomania's site (5 replies)
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1130. Thermite using only Aluminum Oxide (6 replies)
1131. Mgo to Mg? (12 replies)
1132. Exploding Micro Balls? (7 replies)
1133. Detonateing KMNO4 (8 replies)
1134. ead monoxide (7 replies)
1135. Adobe Acrobat pro 6 now available, sort of (11 replies)
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1137. Armor Piercing Pennies and Infinite Mirrors (41 replies)
1138. NBK2000's Book Unavailable (18 replies)
1139. Asbestos replacement ? (6 replies)
1140. A review of the crapbooks. (0 replies)
1141. Trinitro N Nitranilino Ethanol Nitrate (Pentryl) (7 replies)
1142. Esane and dicloropropane (1 replies)
1143. Fourm Video (65 replies)
1144. Industrial use of KP (0 replies)
1145. NaNO2? (1 replies)
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1148.
1149.
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1147.
1148. UK Asylum problem (simplified) (1 replies)
1149. Preparation of Ammonium nitrate (10 replies)
1150. Dinitramides...? (6 replies)
1151. Lockdown! Article (6 replies)
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1153. Cl2 gas. (10 replies)
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1158. critical pressure (5 replies)
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1160. Taking AP Chems Through Customs? (27 replies)
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1163. things to do with AP (and other explosives) (8 replies)
1164. hydrogen peroxide concentration (13 replies)
1165. Military Grade Napalm (11 replies)
1166. Acetylene lighter then air? (9 replies)
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Where To Buy Chemicals In The UK
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angryphil November 8th, 2006, 10:23 AM

Ok, as we all know its becoming steadily harder to buy chemicals without producing a collection of various liscenses, but there still some good sites around for buying chemicals
cheaply and legally. Get them while you still can!
Note: These are UK links only, they might work in other countries but I havent checked.
CHEMICALS:
www.thechemicalshop.com very pricey, but it has most of everything.
www.kno3.com has nearly everything thechemicalshop.com has, but is muuuuuch cheaper!
www.thegreenman.me.uk very realible and quite cheap-ideal for pyrotechnics, also has some usefull plans and formulas.
www.ebay.co.uk currently has some very good deals on KNO3.
www.pyroplanet.co.uk mainly for fuse, but it sells KNO3 at a good price and some very cheap fuse.
FUSE:
www.ukvisco.com realible supplier of standard visco and effects fuses.
www.pyroplanet.co.uk see above.
If anyone knows of any better UK sites please reply:)
mike16 November 8th, 2006, 10:52 AM

Yes, www.thechemicalshop.com, is where I have been buying my chems from, but 6.99 for 500g sodium carbonate :eek:, its very expensive.
There is another site, "www.labpakchemicals.com", I was going to order 5 litres of H2SO4 and 3 litres of HNO3, but on the order form you have to say what you are going to
use the chemicals for, so I just left it.
I thought saying I was going to use 3 litres of HNO3 for fertiliser would look a bit suspicious.
ShadowMyGeekSpace November 8th, 2006, 01:42 PM

You should have taken the time to actually read the threads that are already present on the board. At the _top of the list of threads_ in the "chemicals, apparatus, and
equipment" there's http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/chemicals-apparatus-equipment/1877-great-otc-survey.html
PS: Use The Fucking Search Engine (UTFSE)
Gerbil November 8th, 2006, 01:52 PM

www.thechemicalshop.com very pricey, but it has most of everything.
www.kno3.com has nearly everything thechemicalshop.com has, but is muuuuuch cheaper!
Both are apparently run by the same guy, and reviews of his sites aren't exactly great (I've done research).
angryphil November 8th, 2006, 02:54 PM

kk, thx for the info, ive never used them and i wont now!

Actually...
mike16, what's your experience been like?
Also bear in mind that you can find a lot of chemicals in 'normal' shops if you look around ;) .
mike16 November 8th, 2006, 07:13 PM

Well, its been an expensive experience, at 14 for just 500ml H2SO4:mad:.
For the future im planning on buying a few litres of cheap H2SO4 and a few kilos of KNO3, and I will start making my own nitric acid, I've made nitric acid before, only on a
small scale, but it worked!:)
This was the first time I've made my own HNO3 and hopefully not the last.
It was a very slight yellow colour and tested to be >90% purity, and it fumed a lot, I love seeing HNO3 when it fumes, its beautiful.
c.Tech November 8th, 2006, 09:08 PM

Both are apparently run by the same guy, and reviews of his sites aren't exactly great (I've done research).
Not only that but thechemicalshop.com and kno3.com are probably the dodgiest chemical sites around and they sell most chemicals which are used mainly in drug synthesis,
pyro and explosives. What kind of chemical shop sells that?
They are quite suspicious if you ask me.
They have been mentioned here before and I strongly recommend nobody shops there, many of the more experienced members believe it is the cops and I agree.
CTMTNA November 9th, 2006, 11:11 AM

My first post... I tried 'www.kno3.com' this monday. ordered 1.5kg of sodium nitrite. I got it today(Stocks up for quite a while):D So I decided to order 1.5 kg of Hexamine, I
cant imagine that anybody can guess what that is for... :rolleyes: Sacrificing myself for the better. Ill let you know if anything goes wrong. Hopefully it will be in my "mailbox"
in a couple of days..
CTMTNA November 18th, 2006, 02:05 PM

The hexamine I ordered last week arrived two days ago. It has a kinda bright greyish blue color:confused: ? But works fine for the purpose:) . By the way, the sodium nitrite
has some impurities in the form of yellow brown chunks. Im not saying that it is fine to order from this place, I guess that for these things it never is. But so far I havent
encountered any problems.
Has anyone else realised that the amount of people posting in this thread saying they bought these chems have 0 posts?
Cop1: Try this, I got the order.

Cop2: Yeh I got my chems too.
Idiot: Awesome I will buy some.
Idiot gets arrested.
I could be wrong, just pointing it out for safetys sake.
Cobalt.45 November 19th, 2006, 02:06 PM

Along the same train of thought: Who's to say that a discussion forum might not be put up by the law.:eek:
This site would be administrated and moderated by the law. Kind of a "honey pot" to collect a bunch of unwitting souls. All neatly tied up with a bow.
That way, nobody has to be conned into trying to buy chemicals. They just start posting. No entrapment, or having to deal with money sent to the cops to pay for the
chemicals. The cops can't just keep the money, even if they are cops.
Between this as a possibility, and the Carnivore monitoring system of the FBI, (pause while he looks outside to see black 'copters hovering overhead and JBT's coming up the
drive...):(
megalomania November 25th, 2006, 09:36 PM

If I'm a fed, the fedgov sure owes me a lot of paychecks because I have not seen a dime yet :)
Jacks Complete November 27th, 2006, 07:43 PM

Don't forget, entrapment is perfectly ok in the UK. The cops frown on it, but if they do it, it won't save you (unless you are the son of a statesman)
I doubt anyone ordering 2Kg of pre-explosive is going to get any issues. After all, the law says you can have a small amount of explosive without a license, otherwise
possession of a cracker snap or rocket engine would be an offence. Oddly, for smaller stuff, they could do you as a terrorist, or not bother at all. It would probably depend on
your face.
Element13 November 27th, 2006, 10:35 PM

I believe that KNO3.com may be the cops but I'm not sure.
I have an interesting story to tell. It starts last year when I discovered Skylighter. I bought a bunch of stuff there and got myself real interested in learning pyrotechnics. That
was in early 2005. I read about how the CPSC was trying to stop the sale of chemicals to make fireworks. Being older and having a few extra bucks I took it to heart and
began building a large inventory of chemicals from Skylighter and eBay.
I even ordered a bunch of items that couldn't be shipped. I planned a family vacation and drove all the way to Virginia to pick them up (we visited DC and Virginia beach too).
I have not really learned much yet about making fireworks, but I sure have a lot of the necessary chemicals. As I was in this frenzy of buying as many pyro-chemicals as I
could, I discovered KNO3.com. Being from the USA, I thought their prices were too high but I noticed that they sold one chemical that I have not seen available anywhere else.
Red phosphorus!
I had also purchased books that told how impact fireworks could be made using red phosphorus. I was aware that red phosphorus is used to make meth but that didn't
stop me (it probably should have). I ask them for a shipping quote to get it from the UK to me and it was reasonable. They had a buy 5 and get one free deal so I
went ahead and ordered it (600 grams). It got to me real fast within about 4 days. Thats when I knew something was wrong. Getting it to that fast meant it was
shipped by air. It was not shipped legally.
All I wanted it for was to make impact fireworks like cracker balls and torpedoes. Once I realized how dangerous it is to make those things, I decided to wait until I've learned a
lot more before making any attempts. I also made a decision to NOT make any exploding fireworks because they are much more dangerous and more likely to get me into
trouble. I made fountains and a bottle rocket launcher for the 4th. After the 4th, I made a batch of lances in different colors.
Its now late July, about three months after the red P arrived, and I got a phone call at work. The postal inspector, a guy from the bomb squad and two plain clothes detectives
were waiting at my house and wanted me to come home and explain why I had bought the red phosphorus and the other chemicals from Skylighter. The trigger for this visit
was Skylighter's most recent shipment to me. The 5 lbs. of sodium nitrate that was backordered had arrived.
I was totally freaked out but since I live real close to where I work, I told them I'd be right there in a couple of minutes.
This all has a very happy ending. When I got home, they introduced themselves and the postal inspector handed me my sodium nitrate. I told all these folks the same story
I'm telling you. I invited them into my house to see where I had the chemicals stored. They could see I was harmless. I have no lab equipment except a coffee pot, triple
beam balance and a few mixing screens. No cold medicine! No meth lab! No homemade M80's! The choices I had made earlier saved my ass. I offered to give them (let them
confiscate) the red P but they said I could keep it. I also volunteered to give them a copy of my chemical list. They said sure, and I e-mailed it to one of them. I offered to let
them look in the boxes where I keep the chemicals and they declined. This was it. They left and I haven't heard from them since.
The only thing I changed is I now keep oxidizers and fuels in separate rooms.
This whole thing makes me think there really is freedom in the USA. But then again maybe its because I'm 56 years old. Would I have been treated differently if I were 26?
How did they know I bought the red phosphorus?
nbk2000 November 28th, 2006, 05:37 AM

Well, pigs like it when you roll over like a whipped dog, so that helped. :)
Being grandpa' helps too. If you looked like some tweaky Gen X'er, you'd have been fucked.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > My Dog
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Grapes Of Wraith Novem ber 8th, 2006, 11:19 PM

My dog react's badly to m y pyrotechnic expiriments, and I fear they are getting increasingly worse. Every time I even light a
m atch she runs, hides and wont stop shaking. I would like to know if just animals in general have a phobia of fire. Or is m y
dogs reaction from a traumatic expirience as a pup?
festergrump Novem ber 9th, 2006, 12:06 AM

I'd guess that it's from a previous trau ma, but who could know for sure?
My dog had a problem with anything that even resem bled a gun when I first got him as a pup from my sister because her
hubby decided one day to pop him in the face with a pa intball gun when he shat on the floor. :m a d :
H e ' s b e e n m y d o g s i n c e s o o n a f t e r ( a b o u t 4 o r 5 m o n t h s , n o w ) a n d I h a v e b e e n a b l e t o g ain his trust with him around both

rifles and pistols, eve n while shooting them. He doesn't care for the noise much at all, prefering to m ove a distance away and
lay down, but at least he's not assum ing a defensive position or getting aggressive when I break out the firearm s, anym ore.
I always pet him really well afterwards and give him a treat, reinforcing that everything is okay and t h a t h e n e e d n o t b e
alarm e d . H e ' s c o m i n g a l o n g n icely so far as the sight of guns, but the din is something I'm absolutely positive he'd rather d o
without.
Any anim a l n e e d s t o b e c o m e accustom e d t o h a v i n g l o u d n o i s e s g o i n g o f f r a n d o m ly (to them ) around them . If she's cowering

in the corner during a n electrical storm it will take much work to get her a ccustom ed to anything loud around her. Try having a
friend set off sm all firecrackers some distance away while you have your arm a r o u n d h e r n e c k l i k e a b u d d y ( i f s h e ' s b i g e n o u g h
to sit beside you) and petting her with your other hand (If its a small dog just sit her in your lap and 'comfortably' restrain
h e r ) . M a k e h er feel com fortab le through the whole experience.
Start out with sm all things and build her confidence. Dogs are work. Gotta keep reinforcing what they've learned and only
adding new things with promise of reward.
I'm n o d o g e x p e r t b u t I have had several in my lifetim e . H o p e f u l l y s o m e o n e w h o h a s s o m e experience with training dogs will
chim e in...
W hat kind of dog is she?
Grapes Of Wraith Novem ber 9th, 2006, 12:29 AM

She is a chiwawa terrier m ix about 2 years old (human years). She is very big for a chiwawa though and usually very calm bu t
explosions and any fire in general scares her to death.
I h a d s o m e b o t t l e r o c k e t s o n e y e a r a n d I was setting them off....

long story sh ort we spent about an hour trying to find her, she ran away and was hiding in a bush down the street.
pearlcrash911 Novem ber 9th, 2006, 03:25 AM

Did you get her at the pound?
T h e m a j o r i t y o f t h e p o u n d d o g s i n m y a r e a e s c a p e d f r o m fires, and from what I've seen they all run away when you just light a
m atch.
c.Tech Novem ber 9th, 2006, 03:48 AM

My dog ran away when I lit a match and we've had her since a pup from a private breeder.
I think it's natural for dogs to be scare d of fire and loud noises, it helps equip them for survival in their natural environm ent.
Bert Novem ber 9th, 2006, 10:50 AM

My last dog had to be put in lockdown before anything was lit- He ran TO WARDS fireworks, especia lly if thrown, and would
chase a rocket or she ll downrange trying to retrieve it. I still remem ber him running around with ha lf of a blown up mortar in his
m outh at a firing site, trying to get someone to m ake it fly through the air just one m ore tim e.
Between keying off of m y attitude and some parts of his search and rescue noise de-sensitization training, he got pretty
warped in his responses.
On the other end of the spectrum, the SPCA claim s the day after the 4th of July is usually one of the busiest days of the year
a t t h e p o u n d from all the dogs who took off trying to get away from the noise.
Grapes Of Wraith Novem ber 9th, 2006, 11:41 AM

yes, infact i did get her from the pound....
http://i10.ph o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / a 1 3 9 / m a x d a l / d o g - 1 . j p g
I m ight have s o m e other pictures.
Cobalt.45 Novem ber 9th, 2006, 10:52 PM

H a d a l o n g h aired daschund for seventeen years. And, for seventeen years she loved fireworks.
W a n t e d t o g e t a s c l o s e a s s h e c o u l d t o t h e m in an effort to "take them out".
No fear, just excitem ent.

Your dog might be reacting to your excitement, m isinterpreting it for dan ger.
Got a cat. He books as soon as he hears a "ssshhhh" from a fuze. Dam n good animal, just the sam e.
Red Beret Novem ber 10th, 2006, 03:06 AM

All d ogs I have had went into a panic with pyro. Just the fizz of fuse or a party popper or match and that was it. You can get
thunderstorm sedatives for dogs like that. Just pop it a pill before you cut sick.
sparkchaser Novem ber 10th, 2006, 04:17 AM

My short haired dachsund gets twitchy with the sound of a fire crackling in the fireplace. During the summ er, som e o f t h e l o c a l s
had a celebration of some holiday (don't know which, i'm not Belgian. anybody know what's in August in southern Belgium?),
and we could n't figure out why he was freaking out so badly until we heard the ever so faint popping of VER Y distant firework s.
S o m e critters just don't like it I guess.
Sausagemit Novem ber 11th, 2006, 04:47 PM

My folks APBT is not scared of fireworks but rather runs towards them and waits in anticipa tion, then barks when they go off. He
has never tried to grab a lit one thank god, but I fear he m ay try sometim e so he stays inside when there's fireworks abound.
Colt T Novem ber 20th, 2006, 12:31 AM

Most animals have a fear of fire and loud noises. My dog curls u p in the corner when i play the trum pet, but my aunts dog will
try to chase bottle rockets and rom a n c a n d l e s .
Core Novem ber 23rd, 2006, 12:15 PM

Post deleted for com plete lack of paragraph breaks. NBK

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Nearly party time!! Whoohooooo!!
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Red Beret November 10th, 2006, 03:17 AM

With christmas and new years fast approaching, the question comes to mind; What are YOU doing? :confused:
For me, christmas is a time to reflect..... on pyro ideas that is!!:rolleyes: It's a good time to cut sick because the police are busy with the main party areas in the centre of
town, and I have found that they don't have the resources to deal (or give a shit) with all the people sitting at home letting off pyro or making a bit of noise and such.
A few years back I let off heaps of stuff off my driveway on NYE and no adverse effects were noticed. Some other people in my street were doing some, and a group of about
twenty gathered a few houses down and were cheering for more.
So whether it's pyro or HE that tickles your fancy, get in the spirit,take advantage of the busy law enforcement and party down!!!
Pyro style that is!!:D
Cobalt.45 November 10th, 2006, 10:39 AM

Decided to cut loose last 4th of July.
I waited 'till everybody in the vicinity was doing their works, then did a 15g flash salute.
Dead silence, for about two minutes. With the exception of one dude (drunk, prob.) who could be heard to yell, "do it again, man".
The sound echoed down the hollow like thunder.
Got no visit from the local constabularies, though.
I'm planning something similar, but louder, for new years. I haven't decided how much louder...
atlas#11 November 10th, 2006, 01:11 PM

lol, I used to live in a rural town in colorado where there was only one sherrif who responded to about a third of the already small number of calls she got. Needless to say, we
had free reign on the town. About a month ago while on a weekend visit we set off about 5 pounds of black powder in a tang container wrapped in duct tape at about 2:30am
in the center of town.
We still had to jump in my friend japperwagon and screech tires to get out of there as everyone would have recognized us if they saw us.
At my house, which is about a mile and a half outside of town up the mountian, there are only three neighbors, all of which are about a hundred yards or more from my house,
and none of them care about explosives. I used to set off 60-100gram charges of etn or what ever and no one cared.
Now, however, I live in an appartment in a bigger town, Any craters here I would assume would count as property dammage so I have kept them around 5 grams. I did
manage to make a three inch hole in the landscaping weed net and remove the little rock ground cover for about six inches away with just a small ammount of HMTD from a
batch that I had no intention of keeping.
That one drew the stupid RA's out of their cozy appartments and had them scratching their heads. Luckily I covered the hole up before they got over to my place.
As for using the holiday drunks as your diversion, thats a great idea, but the fourth is probably the worst time for me to do anything at my house, as fireworks in the forest
generaly is more at risk for forest fires so the cops watch for calls from up there alot more than usual. You really have to watch it, we've never had the cops up there and thats
a trend I don't intend to change anytime soon.
NoltaiR November 10th, 2006, 01:20 PM

Wow, when you guys party, you know how to go out with a bang.. :)
As for me the holidays means two things.. a month off of school (grad school is killing me) and more drinking. Well I guess those are just the positive things.. it also means I
have to work twice as much since I am involved in the retail industry. But Christmas bonuses are worth it!

Yea, the fire hazard involved is something to be extra careful of, no doubt.
Five pounds of BP, right in the middle of town. Now that's "gettin' 'er done"!!!:eek:
One thing I should consider is fire towers. With their telescopic view of the area, a big bang followed by a lazily floating cloud of smoke just wouldn't do.
Acetone peroxide is pretty good in that regard. Not any real flash, to boot. Might have to break out the 35%, when the time comes.
Best bet for me, is to do it up after dark.

If you are looking to make a good new years show.. try stretching the mind a bit further than simple explosions (even if you spent hours making them materials).
Take some time and design something with a bit more aesthetic value. A nice rocket that emits sparks (Al is my favorite) or changes color.. strontium red, potassium purple,
zinc green, etc.
Or for the really dedicated, order some empty mortar shells online and make your own fireworks display in the sky. Don't forget to take pictures :-)
Chris The Great November 10th, 2006, 02:55 PM

50kg ANFO equivalent is my basic plan. Might not be around civilization though, we'll see how it plays out. It'll be awesome^10 no matter what happens.
I agree with NoltaiR but I'm not so much of a pyrotechnician. I'll leave the pretty colours to the drugs after the booms are finished.
I'm sure the more pyro inclined members will put on a show like you describe though , I know a few from here who have done some VERY impressive stuff. See also the
"proper pyro" thread which has some real good stuff in it.
Cobalt.45 November 11th, 2006, 10:34 AM

I need only repair to the roof on nights when fireworks are going off. I can see four different municipal shows, off in the (not too far) distance.
I do make and use KNSU/BP 2:1 ratio fueled rockets with various headers like cut stars, glitter and a strobe comp that I'm still working out.;)
But- I still like a ground pounding blast as much as anything!:D :cool:
That ANFO shot will be something else...:eek:

Sausagemit November 11th, 2006, 04:29 PM

50kg ANFO
I miss read that the first time and I thought you said "50g". Then I thought to myself "50g is a waste of a blasting cap and the booster, wait did just write 50kg, yes he did".
You better put that in/on/around something really cool like underneath/on top of a 700 gallon horse tank filled with water and ice or something and video tape it for all the
forumites to behold the glory that is a 50kg ANFO explosion destroying something.
My brother is going to be on leave from the navy so it's def going to be party time for me. Whenever we get together something ends up getting destroyed either by
explosion, fire, or gunfire and sometimes all three.
Last time we ended up destroying his old laptop by running it over multiple times with a car, throwing it off of a cliff onto a large rock, and a couple of well placed 5g KClO3/Al
salutes. By the third salute the battery had ruptured and was melting the laptop.
It might be a good idea to pack a fire extingusher in my bag of tricks this year. :D
Red Beret November 11th, 2006, 08:44 PM

You all seem as excited as me!
Cobalt 45, what casing did you use for the 15g flash salute? I'm planning a 50g salute, in a 125g capacity plastic screw top food container, wrapped in shitloads of duct tape,
about 10-15mm worth. It will be KMNO4 flash. It's hard plastic.
I used to make some pyrotechnic items, little multishot cakes, couple of 3inch shells, with silver or chrsantemum stars. Painstakingly made quality blackpowder for lift and burst
charges. Whilst it was very enjoyable, it took up too much of my limited spare time, and couldn't get enough stuff ready.
So I have some class C pyro, and my stuff is ground salutes, a couple of "ground shells", HE, and LE too. I made this "old school" device, it's and empty, large CO2 bottle, full
of 50:50 black powder and smokeless powder. I will bury it about two feet down.
My ground shell is basically a cannister shell with crysanthemum 6 streamers, and BP burst, without a lift charge, to go off on the ground. Something different anyway.
My HE will probably be PNNM with PETN booster, fired by small AP or LS cap. Have to test the PETN first though, make sure it's sensitive to a small cap. It should be but I've hit
some with a hammer and it did'nt go off.
I was going to get these noise maker type shells for my shotty, but they are $85 for 25 shells!! Get outta here!! :D
As I've said, NYE and the like is a good time to do stuff with little risk of harrasment to authorities. Unless you doing something like 50kg of ANFO!
Universal November 12th, 2006, 12:24 AM

Well, guy fawkes was a week ago, and I did some stuff. I made an oxy-acetylene baloon, and it was so loud that it echoed a number of times off next door houses, my
neighbours didn't seem to enjoy it as much as I did judging by there comments, I made a 5 gram salute and buried it under the ground about 3cm, that was funny as hell
because the ground was really crumbly and dry so it went everywhere, and the crater was quite impressive. At least my friends thought so.
Red beret, looking fordwards to hearing about your 50 gram salute :D, be careful though, I wouldn't want hard plastic flung from a massive explosion at 200kph ;).
tmp November 12th, 2006, 04:16 AM

It's been about 6 months since I moved out of my apartment. The
assholes that ran that place put flyers on everybody's doors right before
the 4th of July every year. The place was run by an insane anti-fireworks
bitch who threatened to evict ANYONE who used even legal fireworks -
even fucking sparklers ! Where I'm at now, my neighbors are mostly
rednecks(like me :D ) who blaze up the the whole development with pyro
shit on the holidays. Back to the joys of making things that go BOOM ! :D
Viper III November 12th, 2006, 05:56 AM

I also want to make a firework this silvester..also when it is smaller than last year.
Last year I had around 6-7 kg firework (without HE) ...but it was too much work to do it again.
I think I will make 5 x150mm shells,..10 zylinder 50mm shells, a few Starmines and a lot of Flash bangs with NaClo3/Al

Cobalt 45, what casing did you use for the 15g flash salute? I'm planning a 50g salute, in a 125g capacity plastic screw top food container, wrapped in shitloads of duct tape,
about 10-15mm worth. It will be KMNO4 flash. It's hard plastic.
I rolled the casing from cereal box cardboard. 4.75"X .625IDX ~.125" wall. I used JB Weld to secure the end caps, also made from the same material.
This cardboard is easy to work with if you soak it in water for a minute, then roll it around your dowel. Then secure it with tape. Let it dry for a while, then slide the tube off
the tool to finish drying. Metal rod or tubing is best. If wood, wrap a round of waxed paper first.
Not as easy as your method, though!
Helps to use white glue between the plies. It'll get all over the place, but dries hard.
Anyway, it was center fuzed with visco. Left an air space of .5" when vertical- plain ol' salute-tech stuff.
I recovered some of the case. It had split length wise, and seemed to show complete combustion of the flash (Shimizu #1).
A 50 gram salute will be up there, loudness wise!:eek:
I was going to get these noise maker type shells for my shotty, but they are $85 for 25 shells!! Get outta here!!
If you are able to recover some spent shot cups from your shotgun shells, you can re prime an old casing, charge with 5-6 g of black powder (12ga.), using the shot cup as an
over wad. Re crimp the casing- it'll usually hold just fine- and have at it.
209 primers are cheap as hell. You could also cut your own over wads from card stock. Just be sure to "pack" the BP.;)
DeathBlade November 12th, 2006, 06:52 PM

What I do every year, something cheap. Usually just hydrogen balloons with a couple of feet of fuse. Some years if there is cash I use some czech 26.5 flares the white and
green stars really get far out there, and sometimes hit the ground burning. :D

Reply to Universal:
While it is about as simplistic as can be, oxy/acetylene balloons (or filled trashbags for the more daring) are always a ton of fun on celetration nights. They are easy to put
together so even when you are wasted beyond recognition you can still produce them.. and they are pretty safe considering there is no shrapnel. If you ever get the chance
when you are making these, try taking a quick video of one with a camera that has a very high frame rate. I would like to see one in slow-motion :)
Reply to Chris the Great:
50kg ANFO charges are incredible, but seem a bit mundane considering those that have detonated them never seem to go any further with their research than putting craters in
the ground. An idea I had (assuming you can take proper safety precautions) would be to make an FAE out of your 50kg charge. Possibly put it in a barrel of gasoline (like the
old "car bomb" video that was on here a long while back) or just a 5 gallon plastic jug of gas sitting on top of a hole filled with the ANFO.
I promise you will light up the sky~

Thanks Cobalt .45, I like the sound of your salute, sounds old school.
I have never tried Oxy/Acetylene baloons, it'll be next on the list I guess. Would they be the loudest thing one could make without using HE? How would a large baloon
compare with, say, 500g ANNM? It's a different sound I know, but which is louder?
I used to capture everything on film but I don't have my camera anymore. I should be getting a DVD handicam soonish though. I'm also getting a NVG unit.
Back to the Pyro, I'm thinking of some other more "inventive" things to do. Maybe make a shitload of AP, wash it in alcohol, place it at the blast site, with waterproof fuse in
place. Then come back when it's dry and fire. Massive AP blast without having to handle it "live".
I also have a 5L plastic container with a BP filled CO2 cartrige installed on the inside of the lid. I want to fill it with flammable liquid or gas.
I also have four butane gas cans, maybe I'll tape some CO2 devices to them. What else could I do with them? What can be done with liquid butane? Say I poured some onto
KNO3 and fired with regular fuse? I'm not saying it would go HE or anything, but maybe it would burn rapidly or something interesting.Suggestions?
Chris The Great November 14th, 2006, 12:59 AM

Unfortunately NoltaiR, the 50kg (Actually more like 15kg+ of a VERY powerful mix I've worked out with a shitload of Al) will probably be fired underground. I'm still expecting a
30 foot crater. Think the spidermonkey ANFO charge but much more so.
There is a place near here with some old metal stuff I could blow into nothingness, but TONS metal shrapnel (sharp and pointy no less), so, well, rather not. There really isn't
anything else to blow up around here.
However, if I have the time, I'm going to try some FAE burst/igniter charges I've been thinking of, in which case I'll fire a massive REAL FAE, with a detonating fuel cloud and
massive overpressure blast and all that. Whether I'll have then working by then, not sure.
Whatever happens it will be FUN.
NoltaiR November 14th, 2006, 04:52 AM

Two things.. first does anyone have a copy of that old video I was referring to? I believe it was called "car bomb". Pretty much looked like a very small nuclear warhead had
detonated around it.
Secondly, getting a little intoxicated and shooting roman candles at bags of oxy/acetylene is crazy fun
Sausagemit November 14th, 2006, 01:03 PM

I also have a 5L plastic container with a BP filled CO2 cartrige installed on the inside of the lid. I want to fill it with flammable liquid or gas.
If you plan on ignition of the flammible liquid start a small fire about 3-5 feet away from the device as I have never got ignition from the BP alone in a device like you are
describing. It will be worth it though as it will create a gynormous flame.
Bert November 14th, 2006, 03:06 PM

Generally speaking, getting intoxicated and then using pyrotechnics and other expolsives is a Darwin award competition.
I have not had a beer or anything else for that matter on 4th of July or New Year's eve for around 20 years. But I've had a great deal of fun regardless-

Secondly, getting a little intoxicated and shooting roman candles at bags of oxy/acetylene is crazy fun
What kind of bags are you using- garbage or?
And, how do you suspend them?
ap_gruffud November 15th, 2006, 12:48 AM

Me and my bro filled some ballons with oxy-accetaline gas once - tied about 30 feat of string to em - let em float and lit the line, makes a nice little fireball.....
GibbsFreeEnergy November 15th, 2006, 02:32 AM

I always found it fun to pressurize the acetylene/oxygen mixture into a large balloon or weather balloon. Then I'd take a piece of masking tape, the wide width kind, and
measure out about 3-4 feet of it so I could light it and let it burn horizontally. I'd hang it from a tree, then light it and run- and those damn things were quite loud. I could feel
the shock wave in my chest. Masking tape makes a fantastic fuse too- if you do it right you should easily have 30 seconds to get away.
Chris The Great November 15th, 2006, 03:00 AM

True that, Bert. I'm going to do that sort of thing AFTER all the explosives are done and gone. Certainly no point adding a bit of red to the thousand foot pillar of debris as it
flies into the air... ;)

Sausagemit; Yeah, I was planning on having a sparkler burning nearby, to ensure ignition. I may fill it with butane, and toss it underwater.
I'll have to try the masking tape + balloon of gas. Speaking of which, I have tried hydrogen balloons many times and could'nt get them to ignite. I bubbled the gas through
water as well.
BTW, having a bundle (1000+) of sparklers is a crowd pleaser! Especially if you put some cans of flammable gas in...;)

Gibbs is definetly correct in saying that you can feel the shockwave. Those charges are very brisant.
I was talking about using trashbags.. the 13 gallon house variety. The trick is to make sure that you fill whatever bag you are using as much as possible so there is at least
some pressurization (hence the reason balloons work so well).
One time I put a trashbag in a aluminum trashbarrel and filled the bag with the gas. Sealed the top of the bag and led a fuse outwards. Then securely attached the top of the
barrel.
Made for a good time.. we had a blast~

no_fear December 11th, 2006, 01:00 AM
I love you guys. I just had to say that real quick. I'm kinda new to the whole pyro thing, and haven't made much at all but I am very interested in some of this stuff.
You guys have some great ideas and I'm thinking about trying some stuff out. Nothing like 50 KG charges or anything, but it should be fun for my friends, since I doubt anyone
has felt the ground shake too hard before. ;)
NoltaiR January 7th, 2007, 06:42 PM

All I can say is, welcome aboard :)
no_fear January 8th, 2007, 12:17 AM

Alright thanks. I have been looking at different things so I think I got a few ideas.
Chris The Great January 9th, 2007, 12:34 AM

If anyone is wondering why my big blast never happened, the extra high power mixture I planned on using required a couple liters of nitroglyerin- which needs a fair deal of
nitric acid. As any of you who have spoken with me know, I've been bitching about the glassware company not getting my condenser replaced quickly (turns out it was
Christmas holidays for them, sucks to be me). No nitric, no nitro, no point in doing something like that half-assed. Though I did join the broad group of guys promising bigass
AN blasts and not delivering.:p

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Another example of fearmongering
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ShadowMyGeekSpace November 10th, 2006, 05:34 AM

Today an acquaintance gave me this link:
'http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1163023202/Modern_binary_explosives'
Now, I don't know what they're using specifically, but it's impossible for me to believe that they used a single drop and achieved the end result the video shows, especially
considering the limited enviornmental pressure around the reaction.
A thing that popped into my head, was that the radio could have been used to signal a sniper with explosive ammunition to achieve the effect, or that there was actually more
than they show... perhaps explosives in the watermellon or something.
I pose these questions:
1) Is it actually possible that I am wrong and there is a binary explosive that is that volatile, amazingly without a cap?
2) Assuming it is not, why do people insist on instilling fear into sheeple?
mil&co November 10th, 2006, 06:53 AM

I think the video is a fraud.
First of all, no conventional explosive can vaporise a melon in such small quantity's. Even the new "super powerfull" (say HNIW, azo-clathrates etc.) explosives are not capable
of doing so.
Secondly, who says the melon was vaporised? The only thing I see on the video is a melon getting knocked from a pole. I don't see vapor, not even one small piece of the
melon.
Third, why use a pen? It only increases the distance between the explosive and the melon. Or is there something else in the pen?;)
2) Assuming it is not, why do people insist on instilling fear into sheeple?

To gain power?
Edit: Could the explosive shown in the video be armstrongs mixture?
Bert November 10th, 2006, 06:58 AM

The first comment is the most telling:I seriously expected "Vote Republican" to pop up at the end of this video.
The VOD's quoted are straight off of another site advertising (standard, non flame sensitive) binaries for de-mining operations.
I'd be very interested in finding out where this video came from- It's posted several other places as well.
BTW, did you notice the 1.1 labels on the bottles and box? The whole point of commercial binaries is that the components ARE NOT category 1 for simplicity in shipping and
storage.
ShadowMyGeekSpace November 10th, 2006, 07:32 AM

Would it not be possible to identify the possible mixture by the VOD they mention? It'd certainly rule out suspects. As I'm an amateur I don't have the experiance or knowledge
to really comment further, because all I have is questions.
BlackFalcoN November 10th, 2006, 08:27 AM

The explosive used looks a lot like 'Kinepak' (kinestick) which is just the commercial name for an ANNM mixture with a red dye in it to indicate a mixed binary charge.
( Although kinepak would require a blasting cap to detonate it)
In a split second the melon is vapourized
or just blown off it's sockle in the video :rolleyes:
This explosive, although rare, can be found todays world black market
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Kinepak available in the US to every civilian with a permit for use in mining and agriculture ?
hereno November 10th, 2006, 12:51 PM

Undoughtedly bullshit.
My guess:
Someone reinvented the acetone peroxide/nitrocellulose putty by mixing their AP with red nailpolish (its often NC based, note how they say it must "set" before being used),
then played on the current terrorism hysteria with a rather effective prank on the ignorant fools with their new "binary explosive" by detonating a pen filled with AP on a mellon
and adding in information on a real binary, kinepak.
Its possible what they created wasnt even an explosive, but the AP/nailpolish fits the description, well except for the exagerated claims of power.
Either Kids playing a prank or its the arabs at it again, using a different form of terrorism "Just how safe is it to fly?" :rolleyes:
Anyway, bert found the proof with the vod figures, which look to be for kinepak 'http://oditechnologies.com/products/binary_explosives.html'

Look at the guys hands, it's obviously some kid who dresses up in his h-core camo for the video. I've got a $5 two way radio which looks exactly the same too. Obviously it's a
fake.
sparkchaser November 10th, 2006, 05:20 PM

I wouldn't put too much stock in the $5 radio theory, the U.S. military uses motorolas that look just like that for routine tasks, unofficially of course (they're less finnicky than
field radios and don't require comsec).
But if you look at the brown paper surface about 3/4 through the video there is a stamp that looks like a postage proof stamp on a package. Can anybody read it? I can see
"BELST....." but that's about it.
I also am having trouble recognizing the uniform. It almost looks U.S., but we no longer use the old field jacket (we graduated to Gore Tex), and I can't get a good look at the
camo pattern. "Vapourized" is definetely U.K.. Can anybody get a better look at the camo pattern?
nbk2000 November 10th, 2006, 06:54 PM

In the picture labeled Fake1.jpg, if you look carefully at the gap on the right hand side where the melon sits on the pole, you'll see a white wire.
In the picture labeled Fake2.jpg, you'll see the sparks from the explosion are directed down and to the right, from about where a hole in the melon would be expected to be at
for that white wire to be attached to a hidden firework.
And the hands shown in the video are entirely too smooth to be anything other than a young teenage male.
I bet the 'explosive' is nothing more than baking flour and red nail polish. :rolleyes:
cyclosarin November 15th, 2006, 12:16 PM

At least they aren't trying to pass it off as red mercury. :)
Jacks Complete November 15th, 2006, 09:42 PM

Don't. Some poor sod in the UK just spent 15 months inside while they tried desperately to send him away forever because he was suspected of being a terrorist and wanted
to get some red mercury. Apparently the fact he never tried to get any of this mythical substance doesn't matter. Or the fact that he wasn't a suspect until he mentioned red
mercury...
Oh, and the video is shite. It would have to be an anti-matter melon to do that much damage with such a tiny drop of matter. I bet it didn't even burn. Besides, you can see
the smoke trail from the firework mounted on the pole that actually does the damage.
And finally, if that stuff did go bang that hard, the kid lighting it would have been using a long, long ignitor, as a flashover would have fragged him if it was real.
Curiously effective "freak out" music...
corrosive November 20th, 2006, 10:25 PM

After foolishly posting a thread not knowning there was one in effect already about this subject and this video, and this super binary explosive
Now after a requested thread delete, I've been watching the video every now and then to in terms "research" it.
I do believe this video is fake, by the hands, "smartly" written words and phrases during process of video, "scary" music, and ofcourse audio to the actual detonation itself is
deleted so you cannot decipher the explosion easily, be it a brisk sound or a boom.
Now, my question is what are all the sparks, huge amount of smoke from such a small amount of matter, huge energy release from again, small amount of matter, and what
is that wire that was unslacked after the explosion?
We all know that when a solid deflagrates, gunpowder for instances, the amount of solid in weight is turned into almost the same amount of weight in smoke, not sure if there
is a formula for this, but how can such emense amounts of smoke come out of such a small amount of solid.
The energy release from this is just impossible from such a small amount of matter, like mentioned earlier, it would have to be anti-matter to have such a destructive effect on
the watermelon. Obviously from this conlusive thought alone, we all know it wasn't the "binary" that did the damage, but a second, hidden firework or salute, judging by the
effects, ae. sparks, smoke.
^
This leads to the wire that was unslacked after the explosion, there was most likely a salute hidden behind the fence post, and then it was set off via. electric box through wire
that is following the fence line.
The whole organization of the explosion is very simple, light the fuse which is just a cannon fuse with nail polish on it, then wait a theoretical amount of seconds that the fuse
would give you before the explosion, then the trip the wires and booyakasha you have your effect.
How they made this video "almost believable"
- Mysterious modern binary explosive , for the un-wise.

- "Scary" or effective music for the background, for enhancement on the doubtful.
- Procedure is shown and is written phrase by phrase to make-seem like it is actual, set time 30 mins ect ect., to make heat sensitive.
- Ingredients with background boxes containing a sticker with 1.1 meaning hazard or flameable.
- To "increase" safety by sticking rubber to the open mass.
- Have an example of conceilment and show its effectiveness.
- Mentioned above, wear "Hardcore Camo" and use a radio in effect to call out a danger zone for explosives to his "other" brethren.
- And finally, have a huge charge in sync with the lighting of the fuse to show its energy release for the climatic effect, then reshown in slow-motion.
Desmikes November 21st, 2006, 12:45 AM

We are looking at about (0.25cm)^3 worth of volume, at 1g/cc and given the lightest 18g/M product even at 2000K+ that's a sphere of gas with radius of 6.2 cm at 1ATM. In
the video we are seeing a little more smoke than that .
Given the amount of sparks during an explosion it is safe to assume that the composition had powdered metals (thinking flash powder from a firework). Which would also
imply that getting a good VOD is gonna be a bitch. And of course, as others pointed out, the sparks do not originate from the location of the "binary".
Why does it even matter that its a binary. If you can bring random powders, liquid, and black powder fuses somewhere, you can also bring things that do not require mixing.
And ANY binary that is made of non-explosive components will fall short of high end molecular compounds.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Bit of related news
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'http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6135612.stm'
The claim that he could build high explosives "within minutes" seems a little dubious :rolleyes: .
sparkchaser November 10th, 2006, 04:53 PM

Just another example of how a knee jerk reaction to terrorism can impede experimentation and first hand knowlege gain.
And people wonder why science is becoming such a "lost art" among the common folk.
In the 50s a person experimenting with those chems. would be aplauded for trying to further his knowlege.
It also seems to be an example of how pre-prescribed punishment can be detrimental to society. If he'd never been in custody, he never would have been aproached by actual
criminals. I won't even start on the fact that if the media had not blown it out of proportion the criminals would not have heard about it to begin with.

Merseyside Police raided the flat he shared with his parents in May, seizing bomb recipes and chemicals, including sulphur, hydrogen peroxide and potassium chloride.
Potassium chloride :p seems like they ran out of chemicals to scare people with, but at least the sheeple dont know what it is.
He had no links to terror groups or extreme political organisations

Taking into the consideration the amount of talk that goes on here about the government and such could we be considered an extreme political organization in the medias
eyes?
Match November 11th, 2006, 01:39 AM

Taking into the consideration the amount of talk that goes on here about the government and such could we be considered an extreme political organization in the medias
eyes?
I don't think it would be far off to say that eventually a local news
'Investigative personality' running into a dry spot will consider doing a story about this website. Citing it as an 'active community for the distribution of...' and using a local story
of a kid using 'satans dirty cunt stain formula' for some exagerated hype.
Community = organization. O well, It'll be a interesting show :D :rolleyes:
c.Tech November 11th, 2006, 02:13 AM

Hasnt that already happened? I read an article from a while back mentioning rougesci and a person who got arrested for j ust visiting us.
mrtnira November 11th, 2006, 11:27 AM

With recent changes in law to allow for preemptive prosecution, some people might be in trouble for just visiting the site, depending upon where they live and what else
they've got going on in their lives.
Also, some times you can see where someone needs to make a name for themselves, and will use an emotional topic like "terrorism" to do it. Not every public official is an
honest broker, but most are.
I do appreciate cops, unlike some (many) of the comments posted in the website. And, I've had the good fortune to meet many good, good cops over the years. I also
appreciate reading everything under the sun since the dawn of time. But, as NBK2000 and Meglomania (and Jacks Complete and others) have pointed out, our societies have
been moving away from the active, self-motivated individual investigation into the material world.
There is growing general attitude that information is increasingly only valid if it comes through pre-approved control channels, such as government run or government approved
schools. Or that information is only valid if it is emotionally acceptable. The spirit of self-directed personal investigation into the world around us isn't as vibrant as it was 30 and
40 years ago.
Outside of the conventionally accepted flow of information you will often get this kind of emotionally assertive response: "You read what!? Are you a terrorist? Do you want to
become a terrorist!?" :eek:
No. I just like to read everything published since the dawn of time. It goes along with being an archivist-historian. :)
The pattern of emotional reaction is akin to what I got in the 1970s when I was reading Mao and Che. Because the threat of Communist infiltration and war with Communism
was on-going in truth, people reacted emotionally to my reading Communist-authored writings, but I was an anti-Communist personally.
If the threat of terrorism was distant, people would be less emotional in how they filter the information, and less emotionally reactive to people who read details of those things
potentially related to terrorism. And you have to be honest with yourself, a lot of what is on Rogue Science (information) is dual use -- it can be used for good, or for evil.
What determines its end use is the motive of the actor (the motives of the person with the information).
I imagine that if we could look into the life of the guy who reportedly got arrested, we'd see he had other things going on, whereby there was a 1+1+1 building of behavior
and expression that led to the arrest.
Also, these web pages are retreivable on Google. In looking for information on recent jihadi publications, I found the thread I started on Rogue Science and it was readable with
the click of a button -- no membership to the Forum necessary. With that, you can imagine that our odd conversations about everything since the dawn of time are easily
monitored. And, considering the range of odd topics discussed on this website (and range of opinions), in the context of today's environment, Rogue Science would be
monitored by the Forces of Order anyway.
Technology gives the Security Services the ability to monitor websites like this one, and the War on Terrorism gives them the reason to do it. So, we're all probably on
someone's list. However, try to appreciate policemen and women, truthfully. Most are honest brokers who are trying to do an honest day's labor in the maintenance of good
order to the public good. How that conflicts with free thinking and vibrant discussion about everything under the sun -- that's where the tension we're so uncomfortable with
comes in.
We need to respect law enforcement, that is my personal opinion; and they need not to over-react to the pursuit of knowledge or to people expressing every odd position
(most of which I do not personally agree with, but the principles of freedom require me to be a good listener).
In saying that, there will always be a small percentage of people in the larger population who would misuse what is written on this forum, and that is why the rest of us are
probably already getting our (electronic) mail read. The horrible disregard for human life demonstrated by anti-West terrorists in the Madrid subway bombings, and then the
London subway bombings, force the hand of the Security Services to be more assertive in the collection of information.
No, I did not eat the Patriot Act like candy. It is offensive to every cell of my body. However, I do pragmatically understand the problem faced by police forces, and the tension
between pressing need and liberty. Long live the Bill of Rights, and let us work through our legal system to repeal the Patriot Act because it was an emotionally driven
document, but at the working level let's give better minded cops some credit because they are trying to prevent another Madrid.

They may try to prevent another Madrid or London bombing but the laws they are setting are ridiculous, such as banning liquids and gels on planes (we all know that the liquid
explosives terrorist plot was a scam). Focusing on the real threats would prove much more effective than what they have done.
mrtnira November 11th, 2006, 12:54 PM

Agreed, c.Tech. How things are done really does count.
The pendulum swings we observe (action-reaction) show that no matter how people try to get around it, these are really human institutions, run by people, and the policies
and actions that flow from them reflect that human quality of good effort and error at the same time.

They may try to prevent another Madrid or London bombing...Focusing on the real threats would prove much more effective than what they have done.
Terror Storm by Alex Jones (Google Video) is a 2 hour documentary/rant all about how such things as 9-11, Madrid, and London were 'inside jobs' by their own governments!
Alexires November 14th, 2006, 04:51 AM

I understand where you are coming from mrtnira, but when you are in a conflict with someone/something or there is a possibility that you may be in a conflict with someone/
something, any consideration other than for you and yours is detrimental to survival.
If a cop is going to bust me because of some bullshit law, I am not going to stand there and let them do it just because he is doing his job. Its like saying you should let
someone else's army invade your country just because they are doing their jobs.
Yes, there is a place for consideration, loving and kindness, but it ISN'T on the field of battle, whatever field that maybe.
In my experience, a lot of police are police because of a psychological need to control and to feel special.
Not many do it because they genuinely believe they are helping people.
Same with politicians really *grin*.

Alexires,
I appreciate you position. And, I appreciate having a place to freely dialog with others, regardless of our differing definitions. True freedom of expression includes the
responsibility to listen and to hear others.
Also, our perspectives are shaped by our life experiences. By sharing good experiences, we can encourage people not to be trapped where they had bad ones; and, conversely,
by hearing about bad experiences, we might not be unwise or naive. That's why I try to put my comments into a context. It helps others judge the relative value of that
comment, without it becoming an absolute position. Absolutes don't work well with human relations and power.

If a cop is going to bust me because of some bullshit law, I am not going to stand there and let them do it just because he is doing his job.
I see the point, but what else can you do other than attacking him or running? Both will have unpleasant consequences.
The same cop who arrests you for swearing 2 decibels above the limit is also the cop who arrests the kiddie fiddlin' junkie who robs old ladies. Ok, that's an extreme example,
but you get the idea :p .
Police don't make laws, politicians do. Blame them ;) .

Police don't make laws, politicians do. Blame them ;) .
The police are still ignorant to be enforcing a law which is bullshit, for the stupid laws (such as keeping both hands on the wheel at all times) the police should be making
judgment on how relevant the law is, Im sure turning on your sirens is more hazardous than letting someone drive whilst leaning their arm beside the window.
Terror Storm by Alex Jones (Google Video) is a 2 hour documentary/rant all about how such things as 9-11, Madrid, and London were 'inside jobs' by their own governments!
I watched the video, very good thanks for that nbk :), I recommend it to everybody.
Alexires November 19th, 2006, 08:00 PM

I didn't mean that it was an absolute.
For instance, I got a fine the other day for not having appropriate plates on my motorbike.
I let them give me that fine, but if instead it was going to be 10 years in maximum security, I wouldn't have stopped.
There is a time and a place. I was more saying that you need to judge whether it is better to let them bust you, or run.
Its your call.
But, if its a choice between spending the rest of my life in a maximum security hell hole, and hurting a cop, I'm gonna hurt the cop, no matter how "innocent' he is.
I do understand where you are coming from though.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Estonian Security-related
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mrtnira Novem ber 10th, 2006, 07:00 PM

This document was electronically translated in 1998, using a Russian software. Th is accounts for its roughness. Today's
translation software p r o d u c e s a s m o o t h e r r e a d i n g d o c u m e n t .
It re flects security training from the 1980s, whe n Estonia was under the Soviet Union as a R epublic of the Union of Soviet
Socialist Republics (USSR ). In 1991, the USSR b r o k e a p a r t , a n d E s t o n i a a g a i n b e c a m e a s o v e r i g n n a t i o n . M a n y o f t h e R u s s i a n s
stayed, and form er security m en would have trouble finding em ploym ent in the new governm ent -- they were not ethnic
Estonians, th ey were Russians!
This created a m anpower pool for private security and for the m a f i a .
T h i s d o c u m e n t h a s l o t s o f g o o d i d e a s f o r p e r s o n a l a n d s m all business security, but it is dated. It refelcts state of the art 1980s
training and practice. As a basic docum ent for personal safety practice, there m a y b e s o m e g o o d i d e a s i n i t . O t h e r i d e a s y o u
m ight want to leave at home....
I wouldn't suggest pa cking heat, for exam ple. It depends where you are in the world, but for m ost of us, that would be an
im m ediate legal prob lem .
'http://rapidshare.com/files/2837940/Estonian_Security_Docume nt.doc.html'
W hen you read it, you will have to do some m ental editing. The translation is rough, and I never went back to edit the book.
The project was too large with other pressing life m atters at hand. Still, it is a fascinating read, and if you want to write accurate
action novels -- here's a role m o d e l .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > John A.Minnery who is it?
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teshilo Novem ber 12th, 2006, 12:30 PM

I read few books by Minnery and decid e find info about author...And i cannt find in all net NOTHING:confused: :confused: Who
is th is :form er CIA operative ,professional bodyguard/security expert,forensic expert,m aster-arm orer or who?
List his books :
Improvised Modified Firearms: Deadly Homem ade Weapons
Kill W ithout Joy; The C omplete How to Kill Book
Fingertip Fire power: P e n G u n s , K n i v e s a n d B o m bs
CIA Catalog of Clandestine Weapons, Tools, and Gadgets
Lockpick gun s
How trapping and destructing armored cars
Firearm Silencers
Am erican Tools of Intrigue
I know only that now these m a n a r e d e a d : ( : (
random136 Novem ber 12th, 2006, 01:44 PM

tesh ilo, have you considered that Minn ery's nam e m ight just be a m ore subtle no m d e p l u m e . I m ean, "Strike" from the hive
truned out to be Hobart Huson and "Uncle Fester" turned out to be Steve Preisler.
Long ago, before knowing this I always suspected it might have been the forum's own nbk due to similarities in writing style
and general life story :p. However, further readings on the forum h a v e t a u g h t m e t h a t n b k h a s a m u c h d e e p e r i n s i g h t o n t h e
subjects covered then Fester.
At any rate, have you considered uploading/p2p-ing that collection of Minnery books? I have m any of them , but not all, and to
e n c o u r a g e y o u I w i l l b e g i n u p l o a d i n g w h a t I h a v e a s s o o n a s I f i n d s o m e tim e.
Also, I am curious. is your copy of 'Kill Without Joy" also m issing pages like all the other versions floating around here? I wo uld
really like to see a co mplete copy bein g distributed, unfortunatley I have n't been able to find anyone who still sells this book.
nbk2000 Novem ber 12th, 2006, 06:32 PM

As far as I know, John Minnerys' real n a m e W A S J o h n M i n n e r y .
I've never heard of it being an alias.
And while doing som e searching on the subject, I found this:
T h e r e a r e s o m e p e o p l e t h a t a re blatantly ripping Paladin Press off online, scanning and copying books.
:D
megalomania Novem ber 13th, 2006, 11:33 AM

W h y s h o u l d p a l a d i n P r e s s c a r e i f t h e i r b o o k s a r e b e i n g s c a n n e d a n d s p r e a d ? T h e y a r e t h e ones who pulled the titles off their
shelves and allowed censorship to occur. Besides, half of their books are barely worth the paper they are printed on.
I s u p p o s e i f J o h n M i n nery is som e s o r t o f p r o f e s s i o n a l e x f e d e r a l a g e n t t y p e h e s h o u l d b e f a i r l y g o o d a t k e e p i n g h i s r e a l
n a m e s e p a r a t e d f r o m his nom d e p l u m e .
Hirudinea Novem ber 13th, 2006, 09:47 PM

tesh ilo, have you considered that Minn ery's nam e m ight just be a m ore subtle no m d e p l u m e . I m ean, "Strike" from the hive
truned out to be Hobart Huson and "Uncle Fester" turned out to be Steve Preisler.
And although I don't know the authors real name "Hitman" was written, under the nam e R ex Feral, by a Florida housewife.
B e s i d e s , h a l f o f their b o o k s are barely worth the paper t h e y a r e p r i n t e d o n .
Y e s , b e a u s e t h e y b u y f r o m , am ong others, Florida housewives, if it looks good, they'll publish it, b ullshit or not, so cavaet
e m ptor.
Charlie Workman Novem ber 14th, 2006, 03:05 AM

That was his real nam e. I was lucky enough to count him a s o n e o f m y friends for about three years, before his untimely death
in 1993. That said, I was never quite sure what the extent of his backgro und was. CIA con tract was one of the things I heard,
as well as C anadian intell. He was on the first com m erical C anadian flight into Cuba as a "tourist", after they lifted their travel
b a n . H e o w n e d a n A W ESOME collection of toys. When he died he was a well respected lock sm ith in a sm all Canadian town, with
a f a m ily. He was a hell of a m a n a n d i s m i s s e d by all who knew him.
As for Paladin, they p ussied out after they caved on the Hitm an case. Their insurance com pany told them it would be cheaper
to settle the case than take it to a higher court, even if they did have an excellen t chance of winning. A pure business decision
and a bad precedent. They have had no really decent books in the last 10 years, except for a hand full of truly excellent
silencer books.

How trapping and destructing armored cars
Firearm Silencers
Am erican Tools of Intrigue
T h e s e b o o k s p u b l i s h e d b y D e s e r t P u b l i c a t i o n s . T h a n k s f o r a l i t t l e info Charlie.
Y e s , P a l a d i n P r e s s p u b l i s h e d o n l y h 2 h a n d m atial arts Not reprin t g o o d o l d b o o k s .
megalomania Novem ber 14th, 2006, 06:34 PM

I was checking som e o f t h e p u b l i c a t i o n d a t e s f o r p a l a d i n b o o k s y e s t e r d a y a n d I o b s e r v e d t h a t t h e r e r e a l l y h a s n o t b e e n a n y
e x p l o s i v e b o o k s t o h i t t h e s c e n e i n a d e c a d e . M o s t o f t h e m are from the 80s and early 90s.
This actually follows a general precedent because the US governm e n t h a s p u b l i s h ed a study mentioning the sharp decline in
rese arch and develop ment of new explosives in the past 10 years. Such things do work in cycles, b ut they are getting nervous
because there are very few renowned explosive s chemists that they are getting closer to retirement, but there is no young
bloo d to fill their shoes.
It is unfortunate that no one has written an explosives book geared to the general public that actu ally contains a
comprehensive and in depth (and accurate) look at how to m ake and use explosives. BAH! I think you would get more practical
info from a book written for fa rm ers in 1906 than a Paladin book written in 2006.
Charlie Workman Novem ber 16th, 2006, 02:58 AM

M o s t o f w h a t e x p l o s i v e s b o o k s P a l a d i n put out were crap anyway. Not all by any m e a n s , b u t m ost. Anything by Seym o u r
Lercker, for instance. He was their explosives TECHNICAL EDITOR for a while. Ain't that a hoot! Some of their best stuff cam e
out in the late 70's- early 80's. My all tim e favorite was the "O S S s a b o t a g e a n d D e m olitions m anual". I still consider it to be
t h e b e s t s i n g l e b o o k o n e x p l o sives work I've ever read. I tried to talk them into reprinting it in the early 90 's under the prop er
title, but they were uninterested. It was not a O SS m anual. It wa s straigh t CIA paramilitary. Som e item s in there, the 3.5"
bazooka rocket, for instance, were not fielded until the early 50's. I place the manual at a bout late 50's. Also, the illustrations
and basic layout are in the som ewhat unique style the Com pany used. It is very easy to spot.

My all tim e favorite was the "OSS sabo t a g e a n d D e m o l i t i o n s m a n u a l " . - G i d g e t
A b o u t " O S S d e m olitio n a n d s a b o t a g e m a n u a l " I w a n t o b t a i n t h e s e b o o k m ore then two ye ar:) :) You can scan this?
Jacks Complete Novem ber 18th, 2006, 01:57 PM

If th e US are concerned about there being no-one to continue the fine traditions of blowing shit up, we only have to look at the
reason! We all know that chemistry is evil, and that you are only m aking crack/brewing illegal alcohol/m aking nitro/m a k i n g
nerve gases, right?
Even before the W arT, chemistry was vilified. Now, owning glassware is illegal, making a firecracker is illegal. So whe re are th e
new types going to come from ?
And, since you won't get a gre at job with a record, they are doub ly fucked when it com es to recruitment, since those genuinely
interested will probably be fou nd to be pyros, a nd hence likely to have had run-in s with the law.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > R obot sentinel
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DyeVad Novem ber 14th, 2006, 09:20 PM

'http://www.d ailym otion.com /video/xg078_robot-sentinella'
Robot sentinella
Uploaded by Alice_in_Wonderland
The robots will go on sale by 2007 for $ 200,000 and will be dep loyed on the border between North and South Korea.
Y o u m a k e m e laugh. I wonder if they'll m ake ones you can put on top of a car, plane, ect. and drive around with them
s h o o t i n g a t p e o p l e . T hen you could ho ok the car up online with a satellite transmitter and have it controlled by some kid
t h i n k i n g h e ' s p l a y i n g a v i d e o g a m e like in the m ovie Toys.
S o t o c o m b a t t h e s e y o u ' d n e e d like high distance electrom a g n e t s i g n a t u r e g o g g l e s a n d E M P c o m p u t e r g u i d ed rocke t g r e n a d e s .

I s s o m ething like tha t in existence? If not I will be project mana g e r o n t h a t t e a m . I g u e s s y o u c o u ld just get a sniper laser or
high density rail gun to take them out, but you'd still need the goggles to see where they where first. Or I guess you could just
g e t a c o o l e d e n v i r o n m e n t a l c h a m e l e o n s u i t s i n c e t h e g u n s e e m s to work off heat and m o v e m ent.. m aybe you could just dre ss
a s a tree (ha) since it says it can tell the difference between a hum a n a n d tree.

I d o n t think there is much left in the DMZ between the two countries. It probably just s h o o t s a n y t h i n g t h a t m o v e s E D 2 0 9
f a s h ion
"You are illegally parked on private property. You have 20 seconds to com ply."
There is actu ally something called Rob oguard that cam e out in 2000 that is an autom atic gun toting robot that can even be
controlled via t h e I n t e r n e t . Y i k e s

A high powered laser or high density railgun? W hy not just use a paintball gun to blind it, then stro ll past? Or point a microwave
oven at it.
It can easily tell the difference between a hum an and a tree. The tree was there two hours ago, in the same place, it's cold,
and that's about it. Hum a n s a re warm a n d m ove. Of course, you could easily put a board between you and it to hide your heat,
then just stroll up to it if there is no se nsor fusion.
DeathBlade Novem ber 15th, 2006, 09:25 PM

From l o o k i n g a t t h e v i d e o , i t s e e m s t h a t i t u s e s t h e r m a l a n d v i d e o c a m e r a s , t h e r m al to detect heat(people / a n i m a l s ) a n d t h e
video to track motion, by comparing changes inbetween fram es. Kind of like these guys that m ade a airsoft version.
'http://www.h a c k a d a y . c o m / e n t r y / 1 2 3 4 0 0 0 4 2 7 0 5 9 7 6 0 / # c o m m ents'
Core Novem ber 21st, 2006 , 12:26 PM

If you want to block heat, use glass. Mythbusters did a show where they tried to fool an infrared ca m e r a a n d b y p l a c i n g a p i e c e
of glass in front of the camera lens it block all IR wavelengths it was designed to protect.
Deathblade: I ran across that too and also a paintball version

'http://codeninja.de/autosentry/'

Anything will do that. It's not just glass, anything thicker than the wavelength of the radiation you want to b lock, and non-
transparent, will block. The be tter it insulates the better, howeve r, as it takes longer for th e heat to transmit through it.
You can also do a neat trick with a bit of glass, and reflect the sun or cold sky at the target, so you seem very different
temperatures rather suddenly. Anything with any m achine logic would pro bably think that somethin g going from 3 0 0 0 d e g r e e s
C to -50 C is a mistake if it was simply blinding the sensor but slowly.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > O bsolete Military Hardware
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Red Beret Novem ber 15th, 2006, 07:05 AM

W hen the m ilitary "decomm isions" a particular piece of hardwear, be it vehicle, weapon, or otherwise, I have been told they
bury these item s.
I know this b ecause, firstly, th e do not give old gear to the reserves, and it is not sold off. Som etim es it is stored in m a s s i v e
warehouses but this takes up resources, and space. I have also been told by two arm y m ates that this (burying old stuff) is
fairly com m o n. They don't bury am m o o r e x p l o sives, and what have you. But rifle s, tanks, m ortars, jeeps, field artilley, is the
sort of stuff they "dum p".
This brings a num b e r o f q u e s t i o n s t o m i n d ;

1 . I f y o u f o u n d t h e s e d u m p sites, how risky would it be to recover item s.
2. W ould it b e worth it.
3. Could you transport and actually store the gear.
I think, realistically, only sm all arm s would be worthwhile in taking. That is, if you can get the amm o . T a n k s , 1 0 5 m m g u n s ,
reccoiless rifles would be too bulky, plus you co uld'nt really get the am m o t o u s e i n t h e s e i t e m s .
S o m e sites are near barracks, which ru les them out. But others, including a large WW 2 US and Australian stockpile, are not.
T h e s e w o u l d b e t h e o nes to focus on. You cannot expect to find these easily though, the locations that I have been told of
aren't pinpoint, and you can e xpect them to be buried deep. Occaisionly, diesel is poured onto the caches and ignited before
burial. This is no real concern.
Cases in the past have exsisted, where people have "stumbled" on these sites and been busted selling hardwear. Some W W2
h o m eguard sites exist, and these would m ainly contain amm o (.303, m a y b e m ortar) gren a d e s , a n d m a y b e e x p l o s i v e s .
O n e w o u l d n e e d a t e a m , a n d a t l e a s t s o m e technical gear to locate the sites. Oh yeah, and som eone to actually tell them
where the sites are. :rolleyes:
T h e r e a s o n a l l t h i s h a s b e e n o n m y m i n d , i s t h a t t h e A u s t r a l i a n a r m y has recently taken the M-79 out of service. I m a d e s o m e

enquiries, with m a t e s , a n d h e a r d a b o u t all this business. Have any of you heard of such things? I will be looking into this
m atter intensely.
sparkchaser Novem ber 15th, 2006, 07:45 AM

I don't know about th e Australian arm y, but the U .S. arm y takes all of the obsolete/worn out equipment an d "demil"s it. After
t h e s t u f f h a s b e e n d e m i l l e d , t h e y t a k e it to DRMO who sells it at auction to the public in giant lots.
Nothing that is hazardous is whole by the tim e it goes to auction . Machine gun ba rrels are cut through the chamber etc. Usually
the only thing that this stuff is good fo r is recycling/scrap.
About the on ly good things yo u can ge t out of these auctions are old vehicles that are beaten up pretty badly but still run, and
engine blocks that can be rebuilt. You can sometim es find obsolete electronics, such as printers and the lik e, but who wants to
buy a pallet of junked laser printers that weigh 40 pounds each?
FragmentedSanity Novem ber 15th, 2006, 08:53 AM

I h a v e h e a r d sim ilar tales, but cant personally verify it. So m ayb e there is something to it, or maybe its just a bit of Aussie
folklore? But the old tim ers in the town I grew up in swore that old jeeps, m otorbikes and various other military gear was buried
under the footy field.
I'd love to find som e sites like that, but as you said the problem would be finding som eone who knew the info and wanted to
pass it on.

I h a v e s e e n s o m e U S m ilitary auctions where they sell surplus m ilitary goods, but only for scrap. They sell the stuff to certified
recyclers and m ake sure it gets scrapped. A naval warship cam e up for auction a few years ago; a steal at $1 million, but you
had to scrap it com pletly :( Probably $10 million in useful m etal, but all from a $ 1 0 0 m i l l i o n s h i p . T h o s e m e t a l s c r a p d e a l e r s
m a k e o u t l i k e b a n d i t s ( m any are mob owned...)
Bert Novem ber 15th, 2006, 05:08 PM

The average profit from scrapping a large ocean vessel is said to be around US $1.9 million.
Ship b r e a k i n g i s a h a r d , d a n g e r o u s a n d e n v i r o n m entally dirty task. If done in the US, the overhead for environmental cleanup,
insurance & etc. is insane- So most such work is done in Asia som ewhere that the se considerations can be largely ignored, a n d
the price of a workm an's life or local contam ina t i o n c a n b e a b a t e d b y p a y m e n t s t o t h e r i g h t p e o p l e . C h i n a , I n d i a a n d
Bangladesh are the centers currently- Lots of heavy metals, hexavalent chrom ium , asbestos, chlorinated organic toxins and
other goodies coming off those ships!
Red Beret Novem ber 15th, 2006, 06:56 PM

O K , I ' v e b e e n a s k i n g p e o p l e I k n o w , a nd have cam e up with two sites. One is WW 2 a n d i s a m o u n tain com plex, vents etc are
barred and welded up. It's public knowlege basically.
The other is m ore recent and is basically buried m etres below. I have pinpoint location on the W W2 site, but not the other one.
T h e W W 2 site is about 8hrs from me, so I won't be checking it out anytime soon. The other is abo ut 4hrs away, but I don't
have the exact location for it. Anyone interested may PM me. It would be worthwh ile looking into.

A m a g n e t o m eter will find them , if they are there. You can build one easily, the instructions are available online. Getting it to
work whilst walking might be a bit tricky, though. That m uch buried m etal should be trivial for even just a com p a s s , t h o u g h .
Your m agnetic north will go crazy, even with feet of earth betwee n you and the "deposit".

Through the years, m a n y t h o u s a n d s o f w e a p o n s have b e e n d u m p e d a t s e a . W W II- era weapons went by way of this, for some
of them.
Also, illegal gam ing devices and slot m achines, just to nam e two.
S o m etimes within sight of land, but I suspect with GPS so readily available, this has mostly stopped.
Much easier to dum p at sea, than to f with digging/ securing sites where stuff is b uried, I would think.

The issue with dum ping at sea is that divers find them, and the green lobby gets really upset about all the nasty shit that
l e a k s out.
Trashing them with power tools then dum ping in a hole then burning and burying kills 95% of things.
c.Tech Novem ber 18th, 2006, 07:15 PM

Dive rs cant find them if they a r e dum p e d i n t o t h e d e e p d a r k o c e a n d e p ths. May b e t h a t s wh e r e t h e y dum p t h e m .
Storm on the Horizon Novem ber 18th, 2006, 09:53 PM

I know this b ecause, firstly, th e do not give old gear to the reserves, and it is not sold off. Som etim es it is stored in m a s s i v e
warehouses but this takes up resources, and space. I have also been told by two arm y m ates that this (burying old stuff) is
fairly com m o n. They don't bury am m o o r e x p l o sives, and what have you. But rifle s, tanks, m ortars, jeeps, field artilley, is the
sort of stuff they "dum p".
I know for a fact that (as of 1999) R egular Arm y arms were transfered to Reserve units. That year the 10th Mountain Division
was phasing out M16A2's for M4's. Representatives from a R e s e r v e u n i t s h o w e d u p i n o u r C o m p a n y a r m s room escorted by
other 10th Mtn personel. The unit armorer and myself read off the A2's serial numbers wh ich were marked off and confirm e d
by m y C.O . a n d t h e R e s e r v e u n i t s C . O . T h e M 1 6s were then packed up a nd driven somewhere else on post where they were to
be rechecked and shipped out. Everything that occured was "kosher" and I'm sure wasn't/isn't the only tim e that it has occured.
The M60 was also being replaced by the M240 around that year. I was told that the sam e thing occured tho ugh I wa sn't
present to witness that transfer.
shooter3 Novem ber 26th, 2006, 11:35 PM

I rem ember reading in an old "Cruising World", A yacht was cruising in th e C a r o l i n a I s l a n d s, and was in a real secluded place,
a s m all atoll of about 10 acres was covered, shore to shore with parked "P-38"s".
At the end of W W-2 the Captains of cargo ships were to ld to dump there cargos of equipm ent, to m ake room for returning
solders. Apparently, one C aptain could n't bare to just dum p t h e s e p l a n e s i n t o t h e o c e a n a n d i n s t e a d o f f l o a d e d t h e m onto this
Island. They were still there, bright and shiny, in 1985! That would be som e v a l u b l e s a l v a g e !
Ksmith Novem ber 27th, 2006, 03:07 AM

I've heard of several instances where in the US people found m achine guns buryed/uncovered, things like .50 caliber M2's,
m ortars, grenades and whatnot, most com mon(its rare to find them allto gether) are M60's and other small m a c h i n e g u n s .
Most are so rusted that their innoperable.
I rem e m b e r a b u d d y o f m i n e s a i d w h e n h e w a s i n t h e a r m y he found a crashed plane which still had 8 .50 caliber M2's still
l o a d ed with 1947 am m o in pristine condition, barely even rusted , he told his comm a n d e r t h o u g h .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > What do you do?
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I'm not sure if this belongs here, I put it here because I think this subject eventually boils dow n to opinion.
Let's say some mother fucker gets into your home. You reach for your machette, pistol, Taser etc, and w hen you attack the intruder, he dies as a result. You didn't set out to kill
him, it was an accident;) , but now what do you do? You have a corpse on your hands, and the weapon you used to defend yourself, may be illegal.
Personally I w ould dispose of the body, w ithout bringing the piggies into it, as they w ill try and put you behind bars. But then, you have complications. People in your house may
not be able to handle that, and nieghbours may have heard suspect noises during the incident.
I guess it all boils down to your ow n circumstances. If you live alone (lucky bastard), it's basically up to you. If you didn't use an illegal w eapon, and you think the neighbours
have heard noises, calling the piggies may be a better option. But if you choose to deal w ith it yourself (what I w ould prefer), you may gain a w eapon that the stiff was
carrying, MAYBE some ID to toy with or something, and you will certainly learn a thing or two about body disposal, a usefull skill.
So I say, if you can, take it as a learning experience, and DIY.:D
Body disposal is, in my opinion, a very useful skill to have.

This can be a tricky situation because you are either a hero or a criminal depending on the whims of your country/state/city/judge. Technically you should be in the right, but we
all know the democrats make civilians who defend themselves into criminals and criminals into victims.
Consider if you do try to hide the crime, and you are likely to be found out, you WILL be seen as the criminal, even if you w ere justified in the killing or not.
Your best bet is to get an attorney, and support system in place BEFORE bringing in the cops. Remember, the dead tell no tales, so every w ord out of your mouth had better be
about how this CRIMINAL CHILD RAPING MURDERER came to gay rape and kill your family. Always refer to him as a vile criminal, every comment, every comment, every
comment. He cant defend himself against the defamation, truth though it probably is, because he is dead. He aint talkin.
You may have used an illegal weapon, but thats because you took it off of him. Whats that? He didnt deny the charge. Failure to answer w ill be seen as admission of guilt.
What you should learn then is how to get your fingerprints and DNA off of the weapon, get his on it, and have a damn good story w hy your fingerprints were on the w eapon if
they find any.
You have to come across as the victim in this at every turn. You are the wronged party after all. Dont let the cops or the media try to spin this the other way and paint you as
some sort of criminal. Never talk to the cops w ithout an attorney. Tell them you are too traumatized to speak to give you time to get one. You were almost gay sodomized and
killed by the child raping gay raping serial killer hopped up on what seemed like a bunch of drugs. A decent law abiding citizen forced to defend the lives of innocent children in
your neighborhood will naturally be distraught.
Corona November 15th, 2006, 03:52 PM

OK... w hat if the guy or guys you killed... turn out to be Pigs?
Fellow shot dead an intruder (intruder-buddies ran away). He called the cops. Cops said, you killed an officer (moonlighting as a crook obviously). Even had piggy ID in his
pocket.
What saved this person? He had cameras installed inside and outside and he had recorded the encounter. Smart!
With cameras so small, if at all possible, record everything. Mount a cheap w ireless camera on your gun... a gun-camera, like on a fighter-aircraft. Base unit recorder can be
nearby or elsewhere on your person.
And Mega is right. Lawyers are your best friend.
Red Beret:
About body disposal.... is it practical to wash someone down the drain? Cut them up and dissolve? Acid or Lye?
Hirudinea November 15th, 2006, 04:53 PM

gay rape
--------
BZZZZZT, Homophobe alert, do not collect liberal sympathy, go directly to jail.
About body disposal.... is it practical to wash someone down the drain? Cut them up and dissolve? Acid or Lye?
Thats a interesting question, the "body" is just meat, butcher the body, cut up the meat and dry it into "People Jerky", then just toss it around it the w oods, ravines, etc...
wherever hungry wild animals roam. (Drying the meat should make a DNA sample untennible), the major problem would be the bones, if they could be dried and pulverized
they could be spread around fairly easily.
Match November 15th, 2006, 05:24 PM

Mega is right, as long as you are portrayed as the victim you will get off. A jury w ill always side w ith who they believe is the victim.
Does anybody remember the case a couple years back w here a man on the subw ay in NYC shot 4 niggers because he thought they were going to mug him? He served 6
months..
Or how about the man who shot a man who raped his prepubescent son? The whole event was caught on news camaras, the man got probation on a weapons violation.
It also depends on where you live, for example, a man in louisiana shot dead a lost japanese exchange student on helloween who w as tresspassing on his property (suburbia).
The student apparently didn't understand him and kept approaching. The man didn't serve one day in prison. This caused a huge outrage in anti-gun Japan and I think there
was a petition with over 1 million signatures on it.
The biggest concern I have is for the SWAT teams that the police love to use. There's been a huge influx in their use and they have been given increasing more pow er. There is
nothing you can do within the law to protect yourselfs from them.
Scans from a recent article in playboy.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e35/malix12/908_1.jpg
More info on Hudson vs Michigan -

http://ww w.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/04-1360.ZS.html
http://en.w ikipedia.org/w iki/Hudson_vs._michigan
(Fixed links - JC)

'http://ww w.roguesci.org/theforum/tools-techniques-plans/2761-auto-cremation-archive-file.html'
An oldy, but a goody, by me. :D

Thinking ahead w ill triple your chances of walking.
Acquire and keep hidden "within reach", a "throw away".
The intruder thus becomes armed with a deadly weapon. A w eapon with which he placed you in fear of death or severe bodily harm.
Don t incinerate a person in a dumpster with petrol, som e guy tried that, had blood all over his car but the body's DNA was too damaged to do any sort of m atch. That was until th e y
took a tooth and got the DNA from its core.
My best bet would be the acid/lye trick on the flesh and good old thermite on the teeth/bones/cartilage or maybe just a furnace.
Now even if there is blood all over you and your house there is no way to match it. Unless the crim w as a blood donor, not a likely chance of that.

NBK's idea seems like the best. It's cheap, easy, and effective. If you're really desperate to leave no trace at all, then dissolve the ashes into hydrochloric acid and pour them
into a river. No trace left at all.
Stone_Faces November 17th, 2006, 10:13 PM

If you decide to keep it a secret and not put yourself in the hands of the law then it w ould be unwise to keep anything that the person had. (i.e. clothes, weapons, or anything
that could somehow be linked back to the corpse.)
Would it be feasible using a thermite like mixture since the high tempratures would cause the body to turn to carbon. (not that there would many traces left except a slag pile,
and any dna or other features usable for identification would be destroyed.)

DING! DING! DING! DING!
We have another n00bie Thermite winner! :D
I was soooo tempted to delete and ban, but I thought it amusing. :p
How many kilos of Thermite w ould it take to boil away 50 kilos of water, and vaporize 20 kilos of carbon?
And even if it was just bones, remember that it's not just a matter of temperature, but time at that temperature, as bones are porous and filled with fatty tissue, thus insulated.

Crush up the bones first? Although if you wanted to destroy the DNA through incineration you could just throw it in a homemade furnace, much simpler than finding the stocks of
powdered Al needed to burn them away.
If your in no hurry to get rid of the body why not put som e use to it, if youve got a hungry dog why waste precious meat on incineration?
You could hack up the body and throw it in your fridge/freezer feeding your dog daily (and cutting the cost of dog food) but feeding the bones to the dog isnt a good idea since it w ould
probably just bury them (not good to have human bones in your backyard).

NBK, just read your human cremation article, fascinating indeed.
This topic has turned out some good ideas, various methods could be used to dispose of the corpse. I think the "self sustaining cremation" w ould be ideal, but maybe if you
were in a hurry, you could store the body somewhere until you could carry this out. Not ideal, but these situations never are.
The main problem I can see, is getting the TASER. They are out there, but are rare compared to handguns and such. If genuine schematics for a TASER could be had, you may
be able to get an electronics techie to make one. Then there is the method of ordering one to an anonymous adress, which has proven (to me at least) very difficult. I guess
one could make a capacitor bank with lethal voltages, a quick touch and they're dead.
I still desperately want a real TASER though, for other purposes...:rolleyes:
I have read that a powerfull cattle prod can make someone pass out, but I've tried mine (on myself) and saw no indication that this would happen. I must try a more pow erfull
one though. There's too many variables w ith cattle prods though, and one must remember, they weren't made to incapactitate.
DrBones666 November 18th, 2006, 10:54 AM

Acquire and keep hidden "within reach", a "throw away".
The intruder thus becomes armed with a deadly weapon.
Don't forget to take a moment to put his finger prints on the shells too. If you fire a shot off make sure there is powder residue on HIS hand and arm not yours. This could get
really complicated.
knowledgehungry November 27th, 2006, 03:00 AM

That's why a knife is better than a gun to place on the body IMHO. All you need is to get his finger prints on the knife.
With a gun on the body the police are going to do some investigating into the background of the weapon, w hich could come back to you(unlikely if you are careful about getting
the weapon), or raise questions about the likelihood of the w eapon belonging to the stiff. Plus knives are cheaper, and are always going to be laying around in the house for
quick and easy planting.
Hitech_Hillbilly November 28th, 2006, 05:59 PM

Mega's advice is very good. Listen to it. As someone w ho has been in the very scenario you describe, I can vouch for it.
The one thing in your scenario (and mine, if I had it to do over) is keep a legal w eapon handy, and use that if needed. Also, be sure to kill the intruder. It's actually better to
deal have a dead intruder than a w ounded "victim" w ho will sue your ass off even if you win the criminal trial.
Very first thing (after making sure the piece of shit is dead), call 911 and ask for an ambulance. You want it to seem you are actually concerned about the fuck and actually
want him to live. Only then ask them to send the police.
Don t talk to the police, other than to say Someone broke into my house, and I w as afraid for my life. I w as protecting myself and my fam ily. I want a lawyer.
Then, get a lawyer. The best lawyer you can afford. And DO expect to be charged w ith 1st degree murder. Get a haircut (short), shave (clean), and try to look as young, innocent, and
helpless as possible at trial (even if you re actually the son of s atan). Lose w eight if you can before the trial (to look weak as pos sible), or (if you are already overweight) gain so much
weight and go to the doctor that he w ill say physical exertion will cause your heart to explode.
And if you do get off, plan on being broke for the next 10 years, paying off your damn lawyer.
reamio December 6th, 2006, 09:20 AM

I have a very deep well on my property which I use for w atering my veggie garden. Any intruders would surely finish up deep-sixed down there - preferably with some weights
chained to their ankles to keep them at the bottom.
Who knows, maybe the water quality would be improved with some rotting IRS inspector's corpse in it :eek:
Next year's cannabis yield is looking better already :D
Exothermic December 21st, 2006, 03:27 PM

Handing yourself in claiming it is self defence in the U.K is a bad idea. There was a story a w hile back, there was an old bloke w ho lived on a isolated farm. A group of two
youths broke in, the old man woke up walked dow n stairs with his shotgun, saw one of the youths trying to climb through the w indow and shot him in the back, killing him.
The main downfall for the old man was that he had caught the kid in the back, w hich in court will show everyone that the victim was either not looking tow ards you at the time
or was running away, thus meaning he was not attacking you.
I believe the old man got a life sentence (about 30 years).
What you should do if you have killed a person, depends on w hat area you live in.
Urban area-If you shot them then most likely people heard the gunshot and if the person broke in, then neighbors may have heard this and may have seen the criminal go in
and w ill be sucpicous w hen he never comes out again.
Also if the person is w ell know n in the area, then you have a problem because it means people w ill wonder w here he is.
Rural areas- Anything goes.
mike16 December 22nd, 2006, 03:16 PM

Exothermic- Good point, I think most people in their right mind shoud not hand themselves in to the pigs here in the UK, claiming self defence, since self defence does not exist
here, legally. :mad:
I live in a small tow n surrounded by fields and woods, so if I had a body to dispose of, I've got lots of choice in where to bury it.:)
Pollsmoor December 22nd, 2006, 05:12 PM

Thinking ahead w ill triple your chances of walking.
This, I think, is crucial.
Once you're in the dw ang, it's too late.
You hafta scheme things in advance. If that involves digging large holes around your property, or keeping pigs, whatever, don't wait until you're surprised and then try to BS
your way out of it, you're dead already.
'nuff said.
If you have some spare time, and are this way inclined, go read "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross, which can be had from Amazon or for dow nload from a website w ith
"firing" and "line" in the URL -- I would recommend the Amazon version 'cos reading a website in the bath or on the loo is downright... difficult...
tmp December 22nd, 2006, 06:30 PM

Having already been through a similar situation, what Mega stated is
absolutely right. In my case, I did some jail time because the fucking
Democrat judge found me guilty of a handgun violation. The gun was
legal but carrying it anywhere isn't. Maryland's elite are the only civlians
who are granted carry permits. Exothermic, the farmer you refer to is
Tony Martin. After some loud protest he w as released from prison after
3 years but he's financially ruined and the British government is actually
assisting the surviving robbers, and the families of the dead robbers, in
their lawsuit against him. The shotgun he used is also illegal in Britain.
Maryland politicians - kakistocrats hard at work !
Jacks Complete December 23rd, 2006, 09:40 PM

Well, nearly. Tony Martin w as declared mentally incompetant, in order to be released from jail early, on a technicality. It was a shitty verdict. Three scallies came all the way out
to his farm, two broke in, and he was alone. They painted dark pictures of him at trial, and they made out it was pre-meditated because he had broken the first rule, w hich w as
he had stated that he would kill the next burglar, as he had been burglarised over 30 times! He had also set traps, w hich didn't help, and looked like a loony. Plus the shotgun
was "left by a well-wisher".
If the police had bothered doing a search for the criminals, the guy wouldn't have died, likew ise if the other shot pikey hadn't abandoned his mate and left him to die, it
wouldn't have been murder, just wounding. And he refused to admit he w as wrong, so the parole board would have kept him in forever - it's a fact that murder is an automatic
life sentence, and you have to admit you were wrong to kill to be released on license, so anyone innocent w ho refuses to admit it will never be free!
As for self-defence, w ell, it is a legal defence, but you are not legally allowed to own anything, nor prepare anything, to help in that defence. The concept of "immediate
arming" is the one used. You can run them through w ith a knife you were using to garden w ith, but having a knife by the door is a crime!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > New Forum L o o k
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View Full Version : New Forum Look

W ell- I m ust say, things here look..... Diferent.
W as an Ohio alumnus having an enjoyable weekend, and felt like shareing?
Or h as the forum b e e n h a c k e d ?
And why won't these strum pets write just a bit "lower case".
Desmikes Novem ber 19th, 2006, 01:12 AM

T h i s m u s t b e o n e o f s i t e m o d s b e i n g o v e r l y s t i m ulated. I doubt that an outsider would hack this forum just to put up some
pics. Not that I want to see m ore pictures posted all over the forum , but the blonde (2nd from the left) has an enorm o u s a s s
: ) , h e r a s s c l e a v a g e r e m i n d s m e of m y e x . I h o p e t h a t s h e i s d o i n g s h a m eless self prom otion -Fragm entedSanity and that I
will someday m ake it to Ohio. The picture of 3 ugly ones has to disappear.

I hope the third one from the left is named Michigan ;) "Fuck Michigan"
I personally would love to see m ore pictures random ly posted in the forum
The picture of 2 ugly ones has to disappear.

Y o u b e t t e r h o p e o n e o f t h e m o d s d o e s n t w r i t e b a c k s a y i n g " T h a t s m y girlfriend/wife :m a d : " : p
EDIT: The 2 top pictures are from 2005 + 2003 .
PlayDough Novem ber 19th, 2006, 02:40 AM

This really stinks of website defacem ent.
Skean Dhu Novem ber 19th, 2006, 03:07 AM

They didn't even form at the pictures to scale to fit in m y bowser window, everything is all stretched out.....thats the really
annoying part.
simply RED Novem ber 19th, 2006, 06:03 AM

Very nice to post pictures of girls, but in defined section. In the front of every page is very anoying .
Chris The Great Novem ber 19th, 2006, 06:10 AM

W ho is Ann Arbor? (and how m uch doe s she charge per hour?)
;)

I h a d s i m ilar thoughts Chris, I was kinda hoping it was sham e l e s s s e l f p r o m o t i o n ; )
It'll be intere sting to see how long it la sts. Or m aybe we can get a different set of trashy college girls every month and m a k e a
Girls of Rogu e Science calander.
Corona Novem ber 19th, 2006, 10:02 AM

W hat...???
Thank you all..! I thought it was just m e that was seeing this on EVERY webpage. I feel slightly better... but only slightly.
Very very irritating, th is... whatever this is. Wha t Skean-Dhu said.... the pics are off-scale... have to scroll sideways to read
every dam n line.
And WHO are these people???
Maybe this isn't a hack? Maybe Mega, NBK, etc. are conducting an experim ent... seeing how everyone reacts?
Cobalt.45 Novem ber 19th, 2006, 10:25 AM

Maybe this isn't a hack? Maybe Mega, NBK, etc. are conducting an experim ent... seeing how everyone reacts?
R e a c t i o n : e m barrassm ent for whoever wasted their tim e with such an amateurish attempt at hacking the site...
And I'd bet a thousand that the m ods or administrator aren't behind it.

It's kind of p ointless for them to suggest fucking Michig an... I've been there, it's allread pretty mu ch fucked.
Sounds like we have a bunch of Michigan assholes bitch ing and whining about W H A T I D O T O M Y O W N FUCKING WEBSITE!
The pictures are form atted for MY screen, thank you very m uch.
I do know a few of those gals, so tread carefully!
I W ENT TO O SU! And we beat those Michigan bastards in the big gam e yesterday, yea!
I wa s feeling celebratory, excuse m e for ruining your w e e k e n d s : D I ll take it down once I s o b e r u p . :D
By the way, I m ight be in one of those pictures. Here's a clue, I'm the guy in the O SU hat :)
Gerbil Novem ber 19th, 2006, 06:27 PM

Any chance of a "W h e r e ' s M e g a ? " c o m p e t i t i o n ? : p
billybobjoe Novem ber 19th, 2006, 06:52 PM

Hey cobalt, fork it over. $$$

T h a n k s , M e g a . R e m e mber to take a goodly dose of B vitamins and drink plenty of water before retiring for the evening...

Hey cobalt, fork it over. $$$
Sure shit the bed on this one...:o

Awwww the pics are gone :(, I wanted to play spot mega .
And the pictures of th ose girls were m aking the forum a bit more interesting than usual.
Match Novem ber 20th, 2006, 11:26 AM

good to know that this board has a not so serious side. t'was enjoyable.
knowledgehungry Novem ber 20th, 2006, 01:54 PM

C o n g r a t u l a t i o n s M e g a , m y dad is a big O S U f a n t o o . Y o u h a v e e ven m ore reason to celebrate, since Michigan still holds the
n u m ber 2 rank, O SU has a chance to beat Mich igan twice in one year, the second time being in the cham p i o n s h i p g a m e :D.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > KGB agent poisoned
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azaleaem November 20th, 2006, 10:11 AM

Does anyone have any experience with poison used on the former KGB agent? It's probably thallium sulfate. The russians look
like they're going after people.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/story.asp?j=232925370&p=z3z9z6y85&n=232926256&x=

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6165836.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6165836.stm
Recent update from the BBC.
In the end, though, we all have no idea what's actually going on here.

...confirmed that a large dose of polonium-210
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/24/uk.spypoisoned/index.html#

Police head for Russia amid doubts over 'lone poisoner'
Sandra Laville, Severin Carrell Tom Parfitt in Moscow

Monday November 27, 2006
The Guardian
Anti-terrorist detectives are poised to fly to Russia and Italy in an effort to solve the fatal poisoning of the Russian dissident
Alexander Litvinenko.
But as John Reid, the home secretary, said the police inquiry had been upgraded from an "unexplained" to a "suspicious"
death, experts voiced doubt at the theory that anyone acting alone could have used the isotope polonium 210 to kill Mr
Litvinenko. One scientist said polonium 210 would only kill so quickly if combined into a "designer toxin" with another isotope,
beryllium, in a complicated process that would require state sponsorship. Such a process was used by Britain in early atomic
weapons in the 1950s.
Article continues
"No individual could do this," said John Large, an independent nuclear consultant. "What you are talking about is the creation
of a very clever little device, a designer poison pill, possibly created by nanotechnology. Without nanotechnology you would be
talking about a fairly big pill, a pea-sized pill. Either way you are looking at intricate technology which is beyond the means
and designs of a hired assassin without a state sponsor."
He said the likely poison pill that killed Mr Litvinenko would have to have been manufactured in a special laboratory over two
or three weeks and then used very quickly - possibly within 28 days - because the half-life of the isotope polonium is only 138
days.
Senior police officers are drawing in experts from the International Atomic Energy Authority, and from the Atomic Weapons
establishment at Aldermaston. Every option is being considered, from Kremlin involvement to the theory that Mr Litvinenko's
work in the anti-corruption unit of the FSB, Russia's MI5, created enemies with the means and knowledge to assassinate him.
The government's emergency planning group, Cobra, has met at least six times in the last few days. Police are studying hours
of CCTV tapes to trace Mr Litvinenko's movements on and before November 1, when it is likely he received the dose of
radiation that killed him. Officers may travel to Russia to interview Andrei Lugovoi and Dimitri Kovtoun, who met Mr Litvinenko
in the Millennium hotel on November 1, and to Italy to speak to Mario Scaramella, who met him at the Itsu restaurant in
Piccadilly.
"If we need to go to Russia and Italy we will do that at the appropriate time," one police source said yesterday. Mr Kovtoun,
who denies involvement, said he was going for radiation tests, because of concerns over his own contamination. One man
police may speak to is a former KGB general with links to the Dignity and Honour group of retired KGB officers.
The man is named in a document passed by Mr Scaramella to Mr Litvinenko as the ringleader of a group which could be
planning to kill both men. He is understood to have left Moscow on Friday for an unknown destination.
The home secretary refused to be drawn on the police investigation yesterday. Meanwhile more than 300 people who were in
the Millennium Hotel, in Grosvenor Square, London, and Itsu, in Piccadilly, on November 1 have contacted the NHS and the
Health Protection Agency is following up the calls. Several have been asked to supply urine samples.
Mr Litvinenko's home in north London, where traces of alpha radiation from polonium 210 have been found, was still being
examined yesterday.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1957880,00.html
Bert November 28th, 2006, 12:29 PM

Making nano sized versions of the "urchin" neutron source just to kill an unpopular journalist/ex-employee would seem to
violate the KISS principle. With the half life of Po 210, each dose would be a custom job.
It happened in England, I'd say this has Q's fingerprints all over it!

The article mentions the technique being developed by the Brits.
And, while KISS is always good, it is sometimes important to be extravagant with your punishments, to show potential enemies
that you are prepared to go to any lengths. :)
That, and they had this expensive toy that they've been dying to use.
I can also see the risks in having an extremely potent poison with no antidote in the hands of agents who might later turn it
against you. But this has a built-in time limit, beyond which it's harmless.
Also, if it's micronized particles of Polonium with Beryllium, that sounds to me like an airborne radiological weapon, intended to
be dusted over population centers for killing off the population within a couple of weeks, while leaving the infrastructure intact
and safe for the attacker to use after a few months.
Or layed down in front of attacking Soviet armor columns, so their troops will inhale the dust and die, even with masks
(because the particles are small enough to get through the filters), without permanently contaminating allied territory. Sounds
very 50's WWIII to me. :)
If I'm not mistaken, Polonium and Beryllium are used together as a neutron source for initating neutron cascade in nuclear
weapons. So, by combining the two together, you'd get both a high-energy alpha emitter and a neutron emitter, in an
inhalable form, where it'd lodge in the lungs and be absorbed systemically.
Hitech_Hillbilly November 29th, 2006, 02:30 PM

The Register is reporting that you can get polonium-210 from a company in New Mexico. Not sure if it's a Fed run Sting, or how
long it will last.
Link to the article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/29/polonium_available_online/
Link to United Nuclear Scientific Equipment & Supplies: http://www.unitednuclear.com/isotopes.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2478908,00.html
Baaaaaaaaad!
The company says that it has supplied radioactive materials to the science hobbyist, businesses, government bodies and
teachers since 1998. We specialise in small orders. United Nuclear assures customers that they run no risk of being tipped
off to the US Department for Homeland Security.
Bugger November 30th, 2006, 06:27 PM

There is also a thread on the poisoning of Col. Litvenenko with Po-210 going on www.sciencemadness.org/talk/miscellaneous,
under "Thallium Poisoning", including files about Po-210 and its radiation toxicity that can be downloaded. (It was at first
thought to be thallium, most likely as Tl(I) nitrate or acetate or sulfate). He met a mysterious Russian who claimed to have
documents pointing to the murderers of a Russian journalist, for tea in the London Mayfair Hotel, the day he fell ill (or the day
before), 1 November. The Po-210 was probably put in a drink served to him while his attention was distracted with the
documents, which could have easily been used to obscure his view of his drink.
London Metropolitan anti-terrorism cops, and the British Secret Police (MI5 & MI6), have in the past day or two detained for
forensic testing four British Airways passenger jets that flew from Moscow to London in late October, after traces of Po-210 were
found on them, and they are also trying to trace thousands of passengers who were on them. In addition, traces of Po-210
have been found in the Colonel's home, and two other London pubs that he visited the day that he fell ill. This would suggest
that the Po compound that was given him was either volatile, or was converted to a volatile compound in his body e.g.
methylpolonium.
Also, a former Russian Prime Minister, presumably opposed to Putin, fell ill while visiting Dublin, Ireland, on the day the
Colonel died; he collapsed bleeding from his mouth and nose, which could be either radiological or chemical poisoning, and
doctors are sure that he was deliberately poisoned. What we need to solve the case is a real-life James Bond, by the looks of
it.
BTW Has anyone here ever handled polonium isotopes? (The longest-lived one is Po-209, half-life 103 years, but is much
harder to obtain than Po-210, and there are other lighter isotopes that have half-lives of several years). The alpha-radiation
from Po-210 (decays to stable Pb-206) is high-energy and intense, but is easily-absorbed by matter and hence is short-range,
hence its ability to damage cells in the gastrointestinal tract and bone-marrow and liver, and prevent them from reproducing
and cause cancer. By comparison, its chemical toxicity would be insignificant, being no more than that of tellurium which it
chemically resembles except for the difficulty in obtaining the Po(VI) oxidation state. Like Se and Te, and several other heavy
metals and semi-metals, Po (in soils where uranium and its decay products are present, derived from decomposition of
granite) is taken up and concentrated by many plants, including tobacco (in which Po-210 is often detectable), and in the
southwestern U.S.A., "loco-weed" which can cause "selenium staggers" in cattle.
mrtnira December 1st, 2006, 06:09 PM

Please consider going to www.axisglobe.com. It is now my home page. It is done by people with a Former Soviet Union focus
(many apparently with security services background).
Some times, the daily front page contents list looks like rambling, because each sentence may be the lead for an article, but
it is not a formally structured contents page. All the lines compress together into a paragraph. If you click on "read more" it will
take you to the page, in which each each topic sentence is amplified correctly.
On the left hand side are topical link lines that will take you to pages focused on crime/extremism, terrorism, etc.
If you are interested in how our many odd threads of academic interests come together in the real world, this web site will
keep you busy. I'd bookmark it for regular reference if you are so inclined.
A second page to often refer to is www.jamestown.org.
Both pages are done by professionals and present serious reporting on real world issues.
Desmikes December 1st, 2006, 08:51 PM

I doubt that this was a true radiation poisoning. According to the story, the dead man started feeling bad the same evening.
The radiation dose required to make one feel shitty in matter of hours, will kill him/her in much less time than the guy
apparently lived. They also were saying that after they detected radiation coming off his urine, they could not figure out what
isotope was responsible. This is strange because, generally you can identify any isotope in the smallest quantities from its
gamma signature. Which leads me to think that the whole thing with Po may be taken by media a little too far.
megalomania December 1st, 2006, 10:23 PM

Im with nbk on this one. The method of assassination was so exotic and James Bondian that they must have wanted
everybody to know exactly what they are capable of. I wonder if this was more of a message to other enemies, or perhaps the
west, that there are old scores to be settled and were a comin for you next.
Das Rumungskommando December 2nd, 2006, 06:25 AM

I agree. This is probably a signal to other dissidents/ defectors that is supposed to show them how they deal with such people.
btw, I just came to know, that the Italian, Mario Scaramella, is also heavily poisoned by that Po-210 and is expected to die
soon.
Cobalt.45 December 2nd, 2006, 02:46 PM

Initially, I had theorized that he had done himself in, as a desperate scheme to frame his "enemies".
Now, I'm not at all sure this was the case.
Now, my questions revolve around why there's so much radiation contamination secondary to the actual murder?
You might expect top government agents to be somewhat "cleaner"; this begs the question- who done it?
ShadowMyGeekSpace December 2nd, 2006, 02:56 PM

http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/56543764/article.pl
reporter writes "British authorities had identified polonium 210 to be the radioactive poison that killed Alexander Litvinenko,
the former Russian spy who defected to Great Britain. Now, according to a disturbing report, the authorities have identified the
source of the poison to be Russia. Bloomberg ominously reports, 'Scientists at the U.K.'s Atomic Weapons Establishment in
Aldermaston, west of London, have traced the polonium 210 found in London to a nuclear power plant in Russia, the capital's
Evening Standard newspaper reported today. Officials at the establishment didn't return calls.' A cold chill just fell on relations
between Russia and the West." In another twist to this developing story, the shadowy Italian security consultant who dined with
Litvinenko has also fallen ill with radiation poisoning.
nbk2000 December 2nd, 2006, 07:41 PM

If it was an inhaled dust, then particles of it that weren't systemically absorbed would be exhaled over time, the concentration
of the contamination increasing in relation to the time spent in the same spot.
Or, secondary dust contamination on clothes and shoes?
Alexires December 2nd, 2006, 08:04 PM

This remind anyone of Leon Trotsky? Assassinated in Mexico with an Ice Axe.
*laugh* Although, I think that the Trotsky Assassination had more class than "radiation" poisoning.
Cobalt.45 December 2nd, 2006, 11:18 PM

I think that the Trotsky Assassination had more class than "radiation" poisoning.
I have to agree.
But as far as the "fear factor" goes, looking at the bald, sunken-eyed, living corpse shown in the news footage speaks
volumes.
The perpetrator(s) are flaunting their power. "Fuck with me, I can and will kill you."
After all, the ex-agent could have merely disappeared, been "accidentally" run over, or any of a dozen other scenarios enlisted
to have gotten rid of him.
An example was made of this guy...
Bugger December 3rd, 2006, 06:21 PM

If you look at the news photographs of Col. Litvinenko as he lay dying, you will also notice that he turned yellow - jaundice, as
well as being rendered bald. This was because the intense energetic alpha-radiation from Po-210 had virtually destroyed his
liver.
As I wrote above, the secondary poisonings and contamination with Po-210, e.g. the other hotel and sushi bar where he
subsequently went after meeting the mysterious Russians, must be due to the polonium compound given him being converted
to a volatile compound or compounds in his body, like H2Po or (CH3)2Po, which were then exhaled on his breath. Some of this
must have been breathed in by Scaramello, whom he met after the meeting the Russians, hence the Po-210 found in his
body, although his life is (not yet) in danger. Compounds like these would have been very smelly, like the similar Se and Te
compounds (seleno- and telluro-mercaptans and their hydrides), but there is nothing in the news reports about Litvinenko's
breath having a bad smell before he died.
Jacks Complete December 3rd, 2006, 07:55 PM

It would be fairly simple to mix the various dusts together, and sprinkle them over the target. Or release them as a gas, for
example in a car or private booth.
Even if there was a smell to them, it would be easily disguised by a strong scent, or a gas to numb the nose receptors could
be added. I'm fairly sure that Hydrogen Sulphide does this, after the initial stink, and there are sure to be hundreds more
compounds that can do the same. The easiest way, however, would be a very slow release. Build up the amount of polium-210
fluoride (or whatever gas you can find) slowly, and the smell would not be noticed. Another way would be to do as the
"OhNoes! Nanotech!" article suggested, and adhere the Po-210 to an aerosolised compund such as cigarette smoke. However,
were this technique used, anyone in the building would be affected. An idea of the onward contamination and results of the
bystanders tests will give us a better clue.
In all, it's a complex and very nasty and expensive way to kill someone. He was definately made an example of.
Alexires December 3rd, 2006, 08:53 PM

Bugger, while what you are saying in regards to his breathe smelling may be correct, I think that the doctors most likely
wouldn't bother with it. They have someone who is dying on their hands, and his smelly breathe is probably the least of their
worries.
As you said while supporting your point, it would take a knowledge of chemistry above high school and probably above first
year university to recognize that Polonium was the cause.
*Nod* I definitely agree with Jacks Complete. As I said before, the Russians have a tendency to make their .... point
*chuckle*..... As in Trotsky?.... Oh forget about it *wink*.
Bert December 4th, 2006, 10:57 AM

Killing a minor problem like Litvinenko in a very public fashion at a time where bad publicity for Russia/Putin would have a
negative effect on the upcoming international summit meeting would be a poor choice for an experienced politician like Putin
to make. False flag operations and killing your own low value assets while blaming it on your enemy come to mind...
Litvvinenko was generally regarded as an asset of exiled oligarch Boris Berezovsky, who was paying his bills while they both
lived in England. Berezovsky has stated his intention to bring down Putin, and his belief that democratic means are for wimps.
http://www.exile.ru/2006-December-01/toxic_avenger.html
We've a number of Russian and other ex soviet members. What do THEY think?
Das Rumungskommando December 4th, 2006, 02:33 PM

Look, what I found:
Alexander Litvinenko, the former Russian intelligence agent poisoned in London, is to be buried according to Muslim tradition
after converting to Islam on his deathbed.
T h e s p y s father, Walter Litvinenko, said in a n interview published today that his son - who was born an Orthodo x Christian
but had close links to Islamist rebels in Chechnya - made the request as he lay dying in University College Hospital.
He said I want to be buried according to Muslim tradition , Mr Litvinenko told Moscow s Kommersant da ily.
I said, Well so n, as you wish. We alre ady have on e Muslim in our family - my dau ghter is married to a Muslim. The
important thing is to b elieve in the Almighty. God is one.
... disgusting.
Nihilist December 4th, 2006, 02:41 PM

Killing a minor problem like Litvinenko in a very public fashion at a time where bad publicity for Russia/Putin would have a
negative effect on the upcoming international summit meeting would be a poor choice for an experienced politician like Putin
to make. False flag operations and killing your own low value assets while blaming it on your enemy come to mind...
Litvvinenko was generally regarded as an asset of exiled oligarch Boris Berezovsky, who was paying his bills while they both
lived in England. Berezovsky has stated his intention to bring down Putin, and his belief that democratic means are for wimps.
http://www.exile.ru/2006-December-01/toxic_avenger.html
We've a number of Russian and other ex soviet members. What do THEY think?
I'm not russian, but i'm thinking the same thing. This is too overt for the russian government to have done. They have no
reason to do something like this, this guy doesn't seem like he was a huge immediate threat to them. This looks a lot like a
way to justify something...what i'm not sure yet is what it's going to be used to justify.
Whoever did kill him must have seen this entire response play out in their minds before it happened. They must have known
it would be discovered that it was Polonium poisoning, they must have known it would be tested and traced to that Russian
lab, and they must have known it would be a huge international incident. So, who stands to gain here?
thermobaric December 6th, 2006, 01:55 AM

I'm pretty sure the Kremlin was involved in Litvinenko's death.He was exiled to the UK 6 years ago for writing a book
connecting Putin and the FSB to the Moscow apartment bombings in 1999,and it looks like they finally got him.
http://vancouver.indymedia.org/?q=node/3022
And an article and clip from his book:http://eng.terror99.ru/resources/book/
Bert December 6th, 2006, 02:29 AM

You might want to research the order of the events you refer to. And while Putin (like many other heads of state) has blood on
his hands, one should always take a careful look at the evidence and research who might stand to benefit most from a covert
and inflammatory act.
Warfare between nuclear states is done by proxy and psy ops. Terrorism is a tool. Murder is a tool. The press is a tool, and
the most important one of the bunch. When the whole press corps of US and UK come together in a united front with a pat
explanation before any evidence is known, I would question how it might have come to pass.
Nihilist December 6th, 2006, 04:12 AM

Not to mention the only lab that examined the polonium that poisoned the man was run by the U.K. gov. As yet, we have no
independent data to verify their claim. You can bet your ass if an American defector in Russia died like this and the Russians
claimed they found American polonium in his system, our press would be second-guessing their analysis all over the place.

You might want to research the order of the events you refer to.You're right, Litvinenko wrote the book after his exile not
before.
But regardless of what the press says he would have been considered an enemy and traitor by the Russian government,and
prime target for assasination.They would have benefited from his death by losing an active critic of their policy and by setting
an example for anyone that would want to follow Alexander Litvinenko.I also find it interesting that he died while investigating
the murder of Anna Politskaya,another Kremlin critic.
Chopper December 6th, 2006, 12:12 PM

This story gets better and better each day.
I've seen no mention of it here yet, so I though it may be interesting to note that yesterday, Tues 5th Dec it was reported on
Melbourne television that the colonel had in fact planned to black-mail the russian govt!!:eek:
This was coming from the mouths of the dead man's friends, no less. The best bit, is the crazy fucker was only intending to
blackmail them for tens of thousands of dollars.:rolleyes: Over, if my memory serves me correctly, KGB affairs.
Perhaps he got off lightly after all.:D
Desmikes December 6th, 2006, 12:33 PM

At this point the story has gotten so big that 90% of everything that's going surface is going to be someone's speculation
taken too far. We might as well ignore the story for the next few months, wait for the dust to settle.
I doubt that anybody took the dead man seriously. His life was far too sketchy for anybody to believe his words. It is more
plausible that Berezovsky killed him, in a similar way that a farmer kills his the animals, you raise it - and it's up to you what
to do with it.
If it is true that Litvinenko did try to blackmail FSB, then of course in Russian understanding he can be viewed as a terrorist,
and most people know what happens to ALL terrorists in Russia - they don't make it to court, or even out the door.
FUTI December 6th, 2006, 01:09 PM

The more the time passes and press haunting endlessly about it...I'm more and more convinced that Russia has nothing to
do with it. This is standard demonisation technique. Since it is dangerous and unwise to demonise whole country they
concentrate on a one (leading) man.
Was there a reason to kill the guy? Yes he is big mouth defector, but is it reason enough? With him cut of the events in the
country his role as a informant diminishes since Russia had already changed all procedures/data/possible weak points he has
been aware and since they trained him they know he already has the data he knows in secure place to use as needed (no
matter is he living or dead). With him living they can say we are open society respecting the freedom of the speach and
diminish his words through simple undisputable fact that he speaks across the border and do not live inside the country. Most
of all his death defies KISS principle.
Press would like to convince us that KGB (now FSB) wouldn't choose to just create traffic accident where car run over the guy
(couple times just in case ;) ) but instead make logistical nightmare of creating delicate plot for smugling toxic radioactive
substance inside foreign country (where they could be caught or worse stopped at custom) with feable chance to might just get
into oportunity to poison him with (imagine this) substance that can only be connected with one nuclear facility in Russia.
Please can someone borrow me that elegant hammer KGB used to remove Trotsky away so I can hit the ass that create that
scenario or myself since I don't wish to listen that stupidity anymore. I'm imagining the guys running around with detectors
making people scared to death so the people start talking "Those crazy Russians they gona poison us all."
Since UK is little hot and cold regarding EU and EU is trying to form better relations with Russia despite their diferencies I could
put some money that some ass in UK has come up with that story. He is of no use to them anymore, so they doesn't need to
feed him anymore. Make him as a central figure of your own plot and you even benefit out of it. Isn't Mr. Churchill said that
"propaganda is the art of stepping on somebody's foot and cry "ouch" yourself"?
nbk2000 December 6th, 2006, 01:53 PM

One of the articles said the type of poison used was developed by the British government.
A russian defector is poisoned in britian.

The brits don't like russia.
Hmmm...are the pieces fitting yet? ;)

It'd be hilarious if this guy was trying to mildly poison himself as a publicity stunt to promote a new book. That actually seems
more likely than most of these scenarios. This guy seems to worthless for anyone to bother killing, so I think the only person
who might've done it is him.
nbk2000 December 7th, 2006, 03:15 AM

Where would a has-been spy get weaponized polonium? It's not something he could have kept around all this years, what with
the half-life of only a few months.
And how fucking insane would someone have to be to poison themselves with radiation?! :rolleyes:
akinrog December 7th, 2006, 03:48 PM

I'm more and more convinced that Russia has nothing to do with it. This is standard demonisation technique. Since it is
dangerous and unwise to demonise whole country they concentrate on a one (leading) man.
IMHO, it might be possible that Russia has nothing to do with it. As you know a few months ago Russia has paid all foreign
debts and is now an financially independent county, which is no good for imperialist/capitalist circles. And since Russia is also a
nuclear power, they need something to corner them, creating such a tumult to demonize them. :mad: Regards.
Bugger December 8th, 2006, 07:58 PM

The latest news:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061208/ap_on_re_eu/poisoned_spy
Hotel bar is focus of ex-spy death probe

By DAVID STRINGER, Associated Press Writer
LONDON - Detectives investigating the poisoning death of an ex-KGB agent focused Friday on a meeting at a London hotel bar
where at least 10 people may have been exposed to the radioactive isotope found in his body.
Colleagues in Moscow hoped to question one of those people, Andrei Lugovoi another former KGB agent and security
consultant named by British law enforcement officials as a key witness in the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko.
Lugovoi met Litvinenko at the bar of London's Millennium Hotel on Nov. 1 the day Litvinenko fell ill.
Russian media reported that both Lugovoi and his business associate at that meeting, Dmitry Kovtun, also showed signs of
radioactive contamination. On Friday, the Interfax news agency reported that he had radiation damage to his intestines and
kidneys.
Interfax also quoted unidentified medical sources as saying that checks of Lugovoi found that some of his organs had
malfunctioned, but Lugovoi himself later told the ITAR-Tass news agency that he was feeling "normal."
Seven hotel employees who were working at the London bar that day also tested positive for exposure to radiation, British
health officials said.
Among the others contaminated by the poison is Mario Scaramella, an Italian security consultant working with the Italian
parliament who also met the Russian in London Nov. 1. Scaramella was found to have significant quantities of polonium-210 in
his body and there are concerns for his health, but he has not developed symptoms of radiation poisoning.
Marina Litvinenko, the agent's wife, also received a dose of the poison, but doctors say it was not enough to make her sick.
Dr. Michael Clarke of Britain's Health Protection Agency said the polonium-210 poisoning likely was carried out at the hotel bar
but a British police official said no conclusions had been drawn. The official said the venue was an integral part of the case,
speaking on condition of anonymity because she was not authorized to speak about the case.
"People go to bars to drink, eat and smoke all of which are possibilities for the poisoning," Clarke told The Associated
Press.
Litvinenko's friend Alex Goldfarb said the former spy sipped tea during the meeting, while Lugovoi said he recalls ordering a
bottle of gin. Clarke said polonium could have been discreetly added to food or drink.
"If it was some sort of liquid, it could have been as in James Bond a little magic capsule," Clarke said Thursday, the day
Litvinenko was buried in a specially sealed coffin.
Litvinenko died at a London hospital on Nov. 23. Doctors said he was poisoned with a massive dose of the radioactive
substance.
Traces of polonium-210 have been found at several sites he visited in recent weeks, including the stadium of London's Arsenal
soccer club and the British Embassy in Moscow. Health officials said traces of polonium also had been uncovered at the Parkes
Hotel in London's Mayfair neighborhood where Lugovoi stayed Oct. 16.
Russian Prosecutor General Yuri Chaika said Wednesday that British police would not be allowed to question him directly, but
could attend while Russian officers conducted the interrogation.
Andrei Romashov, a lawyer for Lugovoi, denied a report that Kovtun had slipped into a coma after meeting Russian
investigators and Scotland Yard detectives. Interfax later cited a source as saying Kovtun had regained consciousness but was
in serious condition. It said Lugovoi doing better than Kovtun but also showed signs of contamination.
Lugovoi told ITAR-Tass that he did not trust reports about Kovtun's condition and urged an end to "speculation" about their
condition.
Russian prosecutors announced Thursday they had opened a criminal case into the murder of Litvinenko and attempted
murder of Kovtun.
A criminal probe in Russia would allow suspects to be prosecuted there. Officials previously have said Russia would not
extradite any suspects in Litvinenko's killing.
Jacks Complete December 9th, 2006, 05:17 PM

Anyone recall the story of Typhoid Mary?
It is quite possible that the idea behind this was to kill several others as well, but it failed. Take out high-level Russian guys,
high placed UK guys, plus the actual target. After all, high doses of radiation take a while to kill, but can take out those who
come into contact with the primary.
A nice coating of radioactive dust on the shoulders would be a great way to do this.
It probably was the UK government. Look what they did to David Kelly over the non-existant Iraq WMDs evidence, and who
knows how many others have quietly been killed for "our" side, along with the hundreds killed by un-needed wars and the like.
Bugger December 11th, 2006, 08:26 PM

It now looks very much as if Kovtun, another (former?) KGB agent, did it, now falling sick with radiation poisoning himself,
through having inhaled or ingested some of it while transporting it from Moscow and/or "spiking" Litvinenko's drink with the
stuff. But he must have known someone very "high up" to get access to a lethal quantity of Po-210:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061211/ap_on_re_eu/poisoned_spy
Radiation linked to contact of ex-spy
By SIMONE UTLER, Associated Press , 11 Dec. 2006
HAMBURG, Germany - Traces of the rare radioactive substance polonium-210 were found at a German apartment visited by a
contact of fatally poisoned ex-spy Alexander Litvinenko before the two men met in London, authorities said Sunday. The
polonium traces were found on a couch where Russian businessman Dmitry Kovtun is believed to have slept at his ex-wife's
Hamburg apartment the night before he headed to London for a meeting with Litvinenko last month, German investigators
said. Tests on traces of radiation at the apartment "clearly show that it is polonium-210," Gerald Kirchner of the Federal
Radiation Protection agency said at a news conference.
Investigators said Kovtun flew to Hamburg from Moscow with Aeroflot on Oct. 28 and departed for London on Nov. 1. That is
the day when Kovtun and at least one other Russian met with Litvinenko at London's Millennium Hotel and when Litvinenko
is believed to have fallen ill. Traces of radiation also were found in the passenger seat of a car that picked Kovtun up from the
Hamburg airport, on a document Kovtun brought to Hamburg immigration authorities and at the home of Kovtun's ex-mother-
in-law outside Hamburg all from before the Nov. 1 meeting.
German prosecutors did not say whether they suspect Kovtun might have been involved in Litvinenko's death. But they said
they were investigating him on suspicion he may have improperly handled radioactive material. "At this stage of the
investigation, we have sufficient initial cause to believe that he brought the polonium traces to Hamburg outside his body, or
that these traces are the result of contact with polonium-210," prosecutor Martin Koehnke said.
Officials said that any connection between Kovtun and Litvinenko's death would have to be investigated by British police. British
police are treating his death as a murder. "We still believe that both variants are possible: that he may be a victim, but also
that he may have been involved, at least in procuring the polonium," Koehnke said. Litvinenko, an ex-Russian agent who was
a fierce Kremlin critic, died Nov. 23 after blaming Russian President Vladimir Putin for the poisoning. The Kremlin has
vehemently denied involvement.
Kovtun reportedly is being treated in Moscow for radiation poisoning. Russian authorities have opened a criminal investigation
into his poisoning, calling it attempted murder. Kirchner, the radiation agency official, said it was possible Kovtun could already
have been poisoned when he arrived in Hamburg and left behind traces through body fluids such as sweat.
On Saturday, the German plane aboard which Kovtun flew from Hamburg to London tested negative for traces of polonium-
210. Investigators raised the possibility that may be because the plane had been cleaned thoroughly. A security officer for
Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport said all Aeroflot planes, including the one which flew to Hamburg on Oct. 28, had been checked
for radiation and tested negative. The officer spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to speak to the
media.
Litvinenko met at the Millennium Hotel in London's Mayfair neighborhood with Kovtun and former Soviet agent Andrei Lugovoi.
Another man, security firm head Vyacheslav Sokolenko, has said he was at the hotel but did not participate in the meeting.
Lugovoi has denied that the men were involved in the ex-spy's death.
Meanwhile, Litvinenko's widow said in interviews published Sunday that her late husband's criticism of the Kremlin had
antagonized his former secret service colleagues, and contended that Putin had created an atmosphere that "makes it
possible to kill a British person on British soil." In her first interviews, Marina Litvinenko said she believed Russian authorities
were behind the poisoning of her husband, who sought asylum in Britain in 2000 and obtained citizenship this year. Marina
Litvinenko told Sky News in an English-language interview that her husband "openly went out from system and accused the
system of killing people, of kidnap."
Marina Litvinenko has placed her faith in British investigators but said she does not intend to cooperate with Russian
authorities, who plan to come to London to probe her husband's death. "In Russia, it doesn't matter how many people are
killed," she said, adding that the life of "only one person can still be very important in England."
Also on Sunday, Litvinenko's friend Alex Goldfarb accused Russian authorities of trying to obstruct the British probe by
preventing Kovtun and Lugovoi from being questioned. Lugovoi was supposed to testify after a team of Scotland Yard officers
arrived in Moscow on Tuesday. But the interrogation has been postponed several times, although Lugovoi himself has said he
is eager to answer questions. "It's a clumsy effort to cover up the trace, to prevent British investigators from meeting with two
key witnesses," Goldfarb told The Associated Press.
He added that Lugovoi and Kovtun could be in danger as the authorities "could try to remove them later." "Another crime is
unfolding before our eyes the removal of two key witnesses: Lugovoi and Kovtun," he told the AP.
Lugovoi, who is being checked in Russia for radioactive poisoning, said Sunday his condition was "stable" and results of his
medical checks would be available by the end of the week. Lugovoi said Kovtun also was in a "satisfactory" condition. "He's not
in a coma," Lugovoi told the RIA Novosti, denying a report by the Interfax news agency on Thursday.

Something about this whole situation just feels wrong. You have this extremely expensive and dangerous operation carried out
in this very amateurish way...the authorities are unraveling this too quickly, something isn't right.

We're talking about post-collapse russia now, not Stalins' USSR.
That says a lot about the quality of the job done. ;)

Litvinenko's killers used polonium worth $10m to give massive overdose
Daniel McGrory and Tony Halpin in Moscow
# Dose ten times the lethal level
# Investigators are baffled by amount
British investigators believe that Alexander Litvinenkos killers used more than $10 million of polonium-210 to poison him.
Preliminary findings from the post mortem examination on the former KGB spy suggest that he was given more than ten times
the lethal dose.
Police do not know why the assassins used so much of the polonium-210, and are investigating whether the poison was part of
a consignment to be sold on the black market.
They believe that whoever orchestrated the plot knew of its effects, but are unsure whether the massive amount was used to
send a message it made it easier for British scientists to detect or is evidence of a clumsy operation.
A British security source said yesterday: You cant buy this much off the internet or steal it from a laboratory without raising an
alarm so the only two plausible explanations for the source are that it was obtained from a nuclear reactor or very well
connected black market smugglers.
Alexander Goldfarb, a friend of Litvinenko, said: Only a state-sponsored organisation could obtain such a large amount of
polonium-210 without raising suspicion on the international market.
In Moscow, Scotland Yard detectives have asked to question further two Russian businessmen who met Litvinenko several
times in the fortnight before he died, including November 1, the day he fell ill. Both men, Andrei Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun,
were contaminated with polonium-210 and remain isolated in a clinic.
The men who have been friends since they were 12 and attended the same Moscow military academy deny any role in the
poisoning and claim that they are victims. German police, however, have begun a criminal investigation into Mr Kovtun after
traces of polonium-210 were found at severallocations he visited in Hamburg. Neither man has explained why the radioactive
poison was discovered in London in places they visited as long ago as October 16.
The nine British detectives sent to Moscow to investigate the murder are likely to return home this week. Russian authorities
have blocked their inquiries and left them on the sidelines as their own officials question the main figures in the investigation.
Security sources told The Times that Russian officials refused to ask Mr Kovtun and Mr Lugovoy questions to which the British
team wanted answers. Aware of the diplomatic sensitivities of this case, police chiefs and politicians have avoided any public
disagreement with Russia or criticised the way Yuri Chaika, the countrys Prosecutor-General, has effectively hijacked the
investigation.
United Nuclear Scientific Supplies of New Mexico, one of the few companies licensed to sell polonium-210 isotopes online, said
that as a single unit costed about $69, it would take at least 15,000 orders, costing more than $10 million, to kill someone.
The company said that as it sold to only a handful of outlets in the United States every three months, anyone placing an order
for 15,000 units would be spotted.
Experts reckon that as little as 0.1 micrograms of polonium-210 would be enough to kill the equivalent of a single aspirin
tablet divided into 10 million pieces.
The killers would also have to know that polonium-210 decays rapidly; its half-life is only 138 days.
The first consignment is reported to have arrived in the second part of October. The rest arrived in two further batches but
police do not know why the couriers risked smuggling further supplies into Britain when the original amount was sufficent to
murder their target.
The latest theory, made by Alexander Shvets, another former KGB spy, is that Litvinenko uncovered damaging information
about a powerful Russian businessman with close links to President Putin.
In Moscow yesterday, a vigil was held for the more than 200 journalists who have died violently since the fall of the Soviet
Union.
Journalists held photographs of many of the victims, including Anna Politkovskaya, whose murder Litvinenko claims he was
investigating when he was murdered.
Here's a new theory...test subject for russian black marketeers. :)
Altroman December 19th, 2006, 07:22 PM

. . . As usual, the Media has chosen to distort the facts in an effort to garner a better headline! Po210 would not be purchased
in 100 femtoCurie "license-exempt" quantities - it would be purchased in much larger (mCi) quantities (and subsequently at
far lower cost), in a relatively pure chemical salt form which is much less expensive to produce and (in this case) to use. My
guesstimate of the total cost: less than $100k, including the palm-greasing required to facilitate transport.
Altroman's Word of Advice #54: Carefully check all assumptions and claims made by the Media (especially those concerning
energetic materials!)- they rarely act with honest intent, or with scientific impartiality.

The media will always distort the numbers, to make the story sound like they want it to sound.
Just like when cops say 'Million dollars worth of drugs seized!'. Yeah, if every bit of it was sold as nickel bags, but it never is.
They inflated the cost to an enormous amount for the 'Someone sure wanted HIM dead!' factor, while still mentioning the
'Anyone with $60 can buy spy poison!' amount to get the sheeple scared that anyone could afford to poison them with it. :)
mrtnira January 20th, 2007, 10:02 PM

Litvinenko was murdered by a killer with three false passports
On-line article from http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=1199
Oleg Gordievsky
AIA reported exactly a month ago that Scotland Yard investigators had some information about the possible killer of the
Russian ex-security service officer Alexander Litvinenko, according to former agent of KGB in Britain Oleg Gordievsky. He told
his version to Radio Liberty this week again.
Gordievsky said that, already in the first days of the probe, Scotland Yard detected some illegal visitor, who arrived in London
from Hamburg under the forged documents November 1. The man, a professional killer, arrived in Heathrow under the forged
EU passport to pass unnoticed. Then the killer changed the passport for another passport of the EU. He left the same night
after Litvinenkos poisoning (or perhaps, early next day), using the third passport, Gordievsky said, specifying the detectives
have a photo of the possible killer taken by the airports surveillance cameras. His first passport was photographed as well.
Russian online paper Gazeta.ru wrote earlier that this man was mentioned in the papers, showed to Litvinenko by his Italian
contact Mario Scaramella on November 1. A former spetsnaz member of the military counterintelligence, GRU, named Igor, 46,
was mentioned in the dossier, allegedly delivered from Russia. His surname is not disclosed in interests of investigation.
Last month, AIA wrote, referring to the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera, that an eventual name of the Russian Foreign
Intelligence Service expert in covert operations might be Igor Vlasov. The British media outlets have reported that he is easy
limps (after a car crash), perfectly knows English and Portuguese, and also the judo, has some passports and carries out
functions of a professional killer. Later, owing to leakages, it became known that the suspect stopped in the beginning of
November in one of the London hotels.
Some editions believe that this person is involved also in the murder of the investigative journalist of the Russian Novaya
gazeta, Anna Politkovskaya. It is not excluded that the man Gordievsky spoke about, and a certain Igor is one and the same
person.
Gordievskys conclusions partly coincide with the version of Andrei Lugovoy and Dmitry Kovtun, who met with Litvinenko on the
day he fell fatally ill, they had put forward in their justification. As it was found out later, radiation had appeared in places
Kovtun visited in Hamburg, Germany. Kovtun and Lugovoy explained the polonium trace with the alleged fact that the real
murderer of Litvinenko wished to bring them under suspicion and followed them. According to Gordievsky, the Scotland Yard
inspectors have believed the both witnesses, Gazeta.ru says.
Meanwhile, Gibson Square Books, a British publishing house, is reissuing Litvinenko's Blowing Up Russia, a controversial book
and the first of a slew of planned editions that will carry the dead man's anti-Kremlin allegations around the world, as The
Associated Press puts it.
Altroman January 21st, 2007, 12:35 PM

An interesting feature of Po210 is its very high radiothermal output (because of its high energy density it is used in RTGs as a
source of heat to generate electricity for satellites). The amount of polonium required to deliver a fatal dose would likely have
been perceptibly warm if placed on solid food in powder form. This would have immediately raised suspicions. Also, the ozone
and nitrogen oxides generated by alpha radiolysis of the air nearby may have been detectable by smell if it were dispensed in
concentrated powder form. Thus I suspect that it was prepared as a soluble salt in aqueous solution, and then dissolved in a
soup or drink to mask its thermal and radiolytic signature.
megalomania January 22nd, 2007, 12:17 AM

I would imagine most food would be served hot, and what european eatery would not be filled with smokers, especially the
Soviet types? The easier to hide the warmth and O3/NOx odor. I think tobacco is one of the food groups over there.
nbk2000 January 28th, 2007, 12:51 PM

It was in a teapot.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/01/it_was_in_the_t.html
paroxysm February 19th, 2007, 10:52 AM

This seems to me like such an elaborate way for bumpimg-off a political or social opponent. There are far more viable and
easy ways than this, although perhaps none as fool-proof. There were worries voiced on BBC news that the trail of radiation
may dissapear but with Polonium 210's half life of 138.376 days I hardly thought this was possible, and why could it not be
traced back before the time at which he fell ill, ie. back to the killer?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W e're saved!
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View Full Version : We're saved!

W ell our glourious m asters ha v e d o n e i t a g a i n a n d s a v e d u s p e a s a n t s f r o m o u r s e l v e s , t h e y h a v e s e t u p a w e b s i t e W I T H a
p a m phlet to tell us how to save our asses when the shit hits the fan, heres the links below...
'http://www.e p w e e k . c a / g u i d e / i n d e x _ e . a s p '
'http://getprepared.ca/_fl/guide_intera ct_e_note.pdf'
W e are so screwed!

I d o n t q u i t e u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e y o u re com ing from h e r e . I t s a plan for a natural dis as t e r , a s p e o p l e s h o u l d h a v e .
I n A u s t r a lia we hav e t he sa m e k i n d o f t h i n g f o r bushfires. You c a n t d e c i d e a t t h e l a s t m inute if you r e g o i n g t o f l e e o r s t a y .
sparkchaser Novem ber 21st, 2006 , 04:20 AM

I'm sure there are qu ite a few people who didn't know b etter and would have paid for that kind of info before natural dissasters
hit their area . Yes there ARE that m any people who are that ignorant.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > God Bless Michael Richards AKA Kramer
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View Full Version : God Bless Michael Richards AKA Kramer
DMSOnMyVeins November 21st, 2006, 12:16 AM

Thank him for speaking his mind and standing up to a disrespectful nigger. Like he said "50 years ago we'd hang your ass upside down and stick a fork in your ass"
He should not apologize. The other party should apologize for being a disrespectful idiot.
festergrump November 21st, 2006, 07:02 AM

'http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/news/bal-artslife-richards1120,0,2560828.story?track=mostemailedlink '
Oooh! Mr. Richards said the "N" word... :eek: How dare he...:rolleyes:
'http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/black3x6os.gif'
Red Beret November 21st, 2006, 07:24 AM

Good on him.
You know what? I hate niggers too! Yeah you heard me, and while I'm at it, muslims, and most of all Fucking Lebanese people! They are fucking my country!
If you love lebanon so much, GO BACK!! Yes, go back to your pile of corpses and rubble, that place you call home. When you set foot in my country, you do as I say, and act
like an Australian. Start by painting yourselves white. Actually, don't come here at all. :mad: Lest I get out my trusty anglo saxon made shotgun and pump you full of
buckshot.
Match November 21st, 2006, 09:13 AM

Good on him.
You know what? I hate niggers too! Yeah you heard me, and while I'm at it, muslims, and most of all Fucking Lebanese people! They are fucking my country!
If you love lebanon so much, GO BACK!! Yes, go back to your pile of corpses and rubble, that place you call home. When you set foot in my country, you do as I say, and act
like an Australian. Start by painting yourselves white. Actually, don't come here at all. :mad: Lest I get out my trusty anglo saxon made shotgun and pump you full of
buckshot.
Australia and Canada must be quite similar.
My country is also filled with patriotic immigrants, problem is, they love the stinky piece of Middle Eastern shit hole they left.
Then we can't forget the muslims... I love it when the muslim leaders go into the media and start talking shit 'muslims are non violent, we do not support these acts of
terrorism' or 'we are pissed at this injustice, you cannot insult the dear muslims, o no you can't!!' If what we said wasn't true, they wouldn't respond the way they do.
As to their ability to become civilized (they still bathe in milk, eat goat and lock their women up) they are more concerned with staying the way they are. Every couple
of months theres a new stink (literally) in the news when some stupid muslim is asked to remove his turban in a soccer tournament or when a muslim can't join the
police because HE won't take off his turban...
I even remember a certain instance when a muslim was asked to remove the huge fucking saber he brought to school, and guess what? The muslim 'leaders' got all pissy and
now immigrant CHILDREN are allowed to bring daggers to schools. :rolleyes:
The cops are even on their side, there was a coincidence of incidents I was involved in and now the police think I'm a terrorist and their trying to charge me with some
stupid law similar to the Americans patriot act. Basically, they can't prove I did anything wrong but they believe that I did and I guess thats enough to charge me,
criminally. They want to bar me from owning a weapon, among other things. I'm amused.
I should watch what I say here as I'm sure they're watching. :rolleyes:
nbk2000 November 21st, 2006, 09:38 AM

All the following quotes are from:
'http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/news/bal-artslife-richards1120,1,683383,print.story?ctrack=1&cset=true'
Note the use of the following 'code' words and phrases:
...spewed racial epithets... (be more specific please.)

...the "n word"...(oh no! Not the 'n' word! :rolleyes: )
...his use of the term "Afro-American" proved funny to some audience members... (I find it funny! :))
...a failed 2000 comedy...(Got to tear him down)
...condemned by industry colleagues...(who are unnamed)
"Once the word [nigger! NBK] comes out of your mouth and you don't happen to be African-American, then you have a whole lot of explaining," Rodriguez told CNN. "Freedom
of speech has its limitations and I think Michael Richards found those limitations."
You freedom of speech ends in the presence of a mud, but only if you are not a mud. Notice he made the exception of the use of the word nigger by other niggers. Isn't that
nice?
Richards tells the audience, "It shocks you, it shocks you" and refers to "what lays buried."
The man spoke the truth and it does shock people...even himself!
a half-dozen community activists gathered at the club to denounce Richards' remarks and demand an apology.
Since when do six niggers loitering in front of a club constitute 'community activists'? I thought it constituted gang activity! :p
Veteran publicist Michael Levine (JEW!), ... called Richards' remarks inexcusable. ... "I've never seen anything like this in my life," Levine said Monday. "I think it's a career
ruiner for him. ... It's going to be a long road back for him, if at all."
Powerful hollywood JEW is saying that his career is finished if he doesn't toe the party line ASAP, and even then...
Oh, and speaking about niggers, FOX decided not to broadcast the OJ Simpson interview, or publish his book.
'http://www.tmz.com/2006/11/20/fox-wont-do-it-network-axes-oj-special/'
Though I still believe it to have been a publicity stunt for something else FOX has planned. :mad:
azaleaem November 21st, 2006, 10:48 AM

To quote from above:
"As to their ability to become civilized (they still bathe in milk, eat goat and lock their women up)...."
Taking a bath in hot milk actually sounds nice, but expensive.

I had goat just once, but it was delicious.
I just got burned by a woman, so I better bite my tounge here.
Corona November 21st, 2006, 11:07 AM

stupid muslim is asked to remove his turban in a soccer tournament or when a muslim can't join the police because HE won't take off his turban...
I even remember a certain instance when a muslim was asked to remove the huge fucking saber he brought to school,
These would be "Sikh" actually.... :rolleyes:
They have to wear a turban and they have to carry a mean looking knife. Part of their dress code.
And you are confused. :p
Core November 21st, 2006, 11:53 AM

I was amused when they said "He used the n-word". Like it's middles school and someone said 'fuck'. Their response is "Ooooh! He said a naughty word! He's in trouble now!"
while at the same time they wish they had the balls to say the same thing.
Match November 21st, 2006, 12:21 PM

These would be "Sikh" actually.... :rolleyes:
They have to wear a turban and they have to carry a mean looking knife. Part of their dress code.
And you are confused. :p
You're correct in that I mis-labled and generalized a minority, chalk that up for my inability to care, although I still don't feel I'm as ignorant as arabs. Muslims and sikhs
included. :p
As for reasons why they have to muddle in everything and be so arrogant about their religion, they're secular beings and they don't have to do anything.
knowledgehungry November 21st, 2006, 01:13 PM

Sikhs aren't Arabs... they are Indo-Aryans. Not only that, Sikhism is one of the more "tolerant" religions in that they don't believe that Sikhism is the only path to salvation and
they believe that all people should be treated equally.
Corona November 21st, 2006, 01:54 PM

I still don't feel I'm as ignorant as arabs.
Oh???
Glad to know you "feel" as you do.... confidence is great... but you can't tell the difference between Sikhs and Muslims??? .... Or a "Kirpaan" and a "Saber"? :p :p
Let us see what other gems you will contribute in the days ahead. :rolleyes:
Jacks Complete November 21st, 2006, 06:21 PM

I've never met an intolerant Sikh. Even the one who kicked me in the head at school became a friend. I don't think he carried a kirpan, but I sure as hell carried a knife! No
one ever stabbed anyone, though. Armed society = polite society, and all that.
nbk2000 November 21st, 2006, 10:15 PM

The video in question:
'http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgmCBKPHnSY'
Corona November 22nd, 2006, 01:48 AM

If you use Firefox browser with the proper plugin, you can download any video from YouTube. Just rename extension to "flv" and play using Media-Player Classic (included in
K-Lite Codec pack).
If you don't use Firefox, there are many other utilities available on torrent sites like Demonoid that will do the job fine (I don't remember their names... they keep coming
along... just keep an eye out). Again... rename to whatever.FLV and play using either FLV player (shitty little thing) or Media Player Classic (excellent).
This video is a keeper. Thanks NBK.
corrosive November 22nd, 2006, 05:43 AM

Michael Richards, my personal opinion, yes he did step over the board a little bit, but talking about racism during standup is like eating breakfast in the morning, yea, this guy
specifically called a "couple" black people, niggers, nigga, refered to a sick lynching technique I guess the Ku Klux Klan would use with forks....wtf..:eek: :confused: .
You can tell this isn't just a routine joke, people were shocked, Richards himself was shocked, after this happened, he just left the stage after he realized what he had said,
why does he have to repeat everything he says three times heh :D ?
Also wouldn't you think that after acting like a dumbass phsyco for some odd 18 years is it? You will commonly have these rages in your daily ruitine or even raging outbreaks,
I mean seriously, 18 years is a long time and even if your fake acting, your brain adapts and you might get mild schizophrenia or just mental problems.
Everyone in this thread saw this, he literally went on a rampage of hatred towards blacks, he didn't give a mild damn about anything he said, he just continues, then following
what, 30 seconds, he realizes the club will not continue further, he just steps off stage.
Even though I am not too fond of the african american race, aprox. 85% of them are crooks, robbers, murderers, but I will not stereotype them because not all of them are
like this, if your black and you read this, your most likely intelligent because rarely do they come on such forums and just read this stuff, but the other 85% have their place on
the internet, which is sadly the most undignifying forum I've ever witnessed physically, mentally, and spiritually, I get a headache from reading some threads.
The gold pot - 'http://www.da-blocc.com/forum/'
NBK will enjoy that - ^
c.Tech November 22nd, 2006, 08:50 AM

'http://www.da-blocc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23'
The only thing worse than a nigger is a wigger.
Niggers (I'm using it as a different term to all blacks) need their own special group excluding all whites and its seen as acceptable except when a black person decides to get
into an all white group and its rejected its racist, criminal, and down right disturbing. Why must it be like that? :mad: (BTW I do not want to join them in any way)
festergrump November 22nd, 2006, 10:45 AM

See the 2nd link in post #2 for an example of this double standard, c.Tech.
They want their cake and eat it, too. They don't feel they should have to work to get anywhere in life because they can get everything handed to them on a silver platter by
playing the race card. It kinda reminds me of another race who's also learned that becoming the 'career victim' works very well for them. If the hatred isn't there you have to
create the illusion of it yourself to fuel the constant sympathy and handouts.
'http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/jew24xt.gif'
In fact, niggers have become the puppet of choice of the other (more intelligent) race. By keeping "Whitey" occupied with the niggers they avoid scrutiny of their own power-
mongering actions... Scary thing is, it seems to have worked very well for too many decades.
Even scarier is, if there's a nigger running for any sort of government office you can bet your bottom dollar that ever nigger eligible to vote WILL vote for them purely based on
skin color. Once one nigger is in office all appointees are niggers, all hirelings are niggers, and all action while in office are racially slanted toward the benefit and welfare of the
nigger race. BLACKEST man for the job replaces BEST man for the job. Alternatively, if you are a White VIP and hire only the best man for the job (hands down, it'll be a well
educated White man) you'll be in for some serious legal trouble if a certain percentage of your staff is not mud. Try getting hired in a "Black Owned and Operated" company as
a White man and see what happens. After that try getting the legal system involved and see how well you fare.
I vaguely remember NBK mentioning something about a publication called "The Black Pages", a directory for nigger owned businesses. Can I advertise there, too? Not that I'd
really want to, but the answer would be NO, simply because I'm White. Can I start a publication for White-Only businesses? Sure, if I want to subject myself to the scrutiny of a
racially biased legal system. Supposing I took the option of being heard by a jury of my peers? Could I get this? Not really. My peers are White. What are the odds that I'd be
allowed to get a decision from an all White jury? This would never be allowed by my opposer's legal council. The result might turn out to be FAIR! :(
-------------------------------------
What strikes me as funny about that nigger forum is the section entitled " STREET TALK--What's happenin on the street's? Whats happen in Prison? Whats happenin with you?
"... These guidelines for discussion are simply because to anyone who'd frequent a forum such as that there are only those two choices: Haven't yet been caught being a social
deviant or HAVE been caught. A similar forum on a White race forum might be: "STREET TALK-- What's going on with your work or studies? What's going on with your family?
What's new in your life?"
Work? Study? Family Values?... by niggers? LMAO! Only on the Cosby Show, folks! Seems Mr. Cosby has a dream, too! :p
-------------------------------------
IMHO, America as a White Nation (created by Whites for Whites) should march every nigger south of the American/Mexican border before the wall is completed. I'd call it the
Million Man March except this name has already been taken long ago:
'http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/RealMillionmanmarch.jpg'
Sorry for going on and on... The real issue of this thread is that they choose to call themselves niggers but complain that other races do also. That's similar to me insisting that
everyone call me some thing other than Festergrump (a rather stupid name I chose for myself when I signed up) because it 'offends me' when YOU do it. Next person who
calls me Festergrump or Fester will be really be in for it when I run crying to Megalomania or NBK2000! (unless, of course, I happen to like you... then it's okay). :rolleyes:
ravn November 22nd, 2006, 08:41 PM

Next person who calls me Festergrump or Fester will be really be in for it
How about Uncle Fester? Maybe Unk for short???:D
Pugsley
Chris The Great November 23rd, 2006, 04:28 AM

That'd mix him up within someone else though...
Where did you find those comics though Fester? ;) They are hilarious!
festergrump November 23rd, 2006, 06:43 AM

How about Uncle Fester? Maybe Unk for short???
"You can call me Susan if it makes you happy..." -- Bullet-tooth Tony (from the movie: 'Snatch')
Honestly, though, Uncle Fester is NOT me and I don't want any mistake regarding that fact.
Your answer lies within your PM inbox, Chris... ;)
Big Mac November 23rd, 2006, 11:11 PM

If you use Firefox browser with the proper plugin, you can download any video from YouTube. Just rename extension to "flv" and play using Media-Player Classic (included in
K-Lite Codec pack).
If you don't use Firefox, there are many other utilities available on torrent sites like Demonoid that will do the job fine (I don't remember their names... they keep coming
along... just keep an eye out). Again... rename to whatever.FLV and play using either FLV player (shitty little thing) or Media Player Classic (excellent).
This video is a keeper. Thanks NBK.
What plug-in is that exactly?
Corona November 24th, 2006, 12:49 AM

I think there is more than one... I just got the first one I came across. It is called "Unplug". It gives you a download link for embedded video.
'https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/2254/'
Install Firefox and go to their add-ons/plug-ins site and see what is available.
If you want to use a download manager to get the videos (or anything) faster, install "FlashGot" along with the normal Flashget download manager.

'http://videodownloader.net' is the one I use.
festergrump November 27th, 2006, 05:33 AM

Having seen yesterday morning on the news that Michael Richards was bending over backwards to appease the niggers of America with an overabundance of asskissing by
agreeing to live chat with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton on a radio broadcast I became renewed with vigor to air more of my own my own thoughts on the matter:
What Michael Richards did was not racist. What he did was call upon the truth... call a kettle black, if you will. It shocked him as much as it shocked the antagonistic hecklers
he was directing his comments towards.
While we people who are bombarded daily by indoctrinations and doses of our governments propaganda and trained to respond with the "appropriate" feelings or reactions to
stimuli (which the government and society at large deem "acceptable")... there are deeper thoughts and conflicts at play, often going on within only our subconcious minds,
which will manifest uncontrollably when our capacity to contain them reach critical mass. An explosion is imminent because deep within there is a severe conflict. (something
just isn't adding up correctly).
What we witnessed was one such explosion. It was, in fact, actually the direct result of what is often called "reverse discrimination". The man (Richards) simply grew tired for
being held accountable for actions his forefathers were said to have done to THEIR forefathers, and with the 'egging on' of hecklers of a race now grown used to sympathy and
handouts for ill-treatment not of their own endurance-- cried, "Oh, how COULD you!". This was NOT the pampering and pandering they've grown accustomed to receiving from
a man with paler skin than their own, as history has dictated--better treatment is and has long since been available.
My point:
If you teach any animal to ring a bell and get a reward, when you fail to provide the reward when the bell is rung after much conditioning, you've an irrate animal to contend
with.
Michael Richards may have never taught such an animal this trick, but it seems he now has to provide a "treat" for them, at the very least in the form of an apology (or so say
Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, anyway. Go figure. Those two alone have taught many a thousands of blacks just how to "ring a bell" and exact even a specific flavor of
reward).
I feel sorry for Mr. Richards but nothing for the hecklers. They knew they had the deck stacked in their favor before ever uttering a rude comment towards their entertainer.
Why heckle in the first place? Why not just leave? Because there, as always, is a bell within their pocket to ring...
Corona November 27th, 2006, 03:09 PM

About downloaders for the likes of YouTube, GoogleVideo, etc..... in case the page NBK mentioned doesn't work for you (the downloads had a habit of cutting out, in my case)
or if you aren't using FireFox.... here are two to try out.
'http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/546838/618056/'
'http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/546772/154514/'
I haven't used them, so please.... But such stuff usually works OK. Such utilities come and go... there is no shortage of them.
Now then... why are you guys so anti-black? Is it really bad out there? I've never been out my country (and I'm not black) so I don't know.
I liked watching Kramer.... he is a good actor. But if he had been a good on-stage comedian, he should've been able to handle a few idiots in the crowd without blowing up.

The guy came across as an over-amped coke head.
And, without the courage of his convictions, he's seen to be very, very weak, to boot.
A piss-poor horse to hitch your wagon to, IMO.
WhiteSword November 27th, 2006, 06:08 PM

It's so funny how a Jewish man calls a black man a nigger and then has to go to other black men(Rev. Jackson and Sharpton) and beg for forgivness. The same black men
who make anti-semetic comments about Jews. Did the mayor New Orleans have to make the rounds and explain his "Chocolate City" Comments to whites? Do the black rap
artist who sing about killing "crackas" and "whitey" ever get confronted about their hate filled lyrics? Until whites world wide unit against the people that are stealing our land
and raping and killing our people we will only see more and more of this.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > The Hutchison Effect
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corrosive November 22nd, 2006, 07:31 AM

Controlling solids, liquids, gases with electro-magnetic frequencies. Yup the technology has finally advanced as shown in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLl3VAbUEGY
So many uses for such a product you can go crazy, some for example: weapon, propulsion, free energy*.
This video includes the effect of electro-magnetic frequencies on solids, liquids, each of which has its "own channel" or its own frequency at which it responds. I always knew
that people levitating just manipulated the magnetic fields of their body with their mind causing them to lift up. This has the same effect from, bending steel to lifting a 70lb.
cannon ball.
When I say each has its own channel, watch him manipulate the icecream in the cup, it slowly lifts up until he changes the frequency and it shoots up.
He also mentioned turning some metals into unknown elements after its exposure to some frequencies, and the government has had this since the late 70's !, imagine how far
they have gotten in advancement ae. Ion Engine for propulsion.
Definetly watch through the whole video.
Red Beret November 22nd, 2006, 07:53 AM

That's fascinating. Unable to watch the video though. Imagine how far the government has got with this! I'd like to know what types of propulsion systems they are using,
based on this.
This, I guess, would give totally silent propulsion. I once saw a "flying triangle" one night, over a built up residential area. It was totally silent, freaked me out. It was also
travelling at speeds that would stall a coventional craft. This technology may explain that. It'd sure beat Pulse Detonation Wave Propulsion. Maybe not in terms of speed
though.
ShadowMyGeekSpace November 22nd, 2006, 11:19 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutchison_effect
There is no acceptance of Hutchison's claims among mainstream scientists. In a recent posting to the newsgroup sci.physics.research, Marc Millis, who formerly ran the now
defunct Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Program for NASA, wrote:
The Hutchison Effect has been claimed for years, without any independent verification ever. In fact, its originator can't even replicate it on demand. This has been
investigated more than once, been part of documentaries on The Discovery Channel, but still never seems to pass critical muster. This is in the category of folklore. In general,
the "American Antigravity" web site caters to such folklore and its enthusiasts.
Marc G. Millis
Another problem with Hutchison's effect is that many of the effects shown, such as the levitation and heating of objects, can be produced by other physically established laws,
such as the Lorentz force and acoustic levitation (which uses ultrasonic waves to levitate objects of up to ten kilograms, and can work on any material, including water, wood,
metal and stone)
Hutchison states that he hasn't actually reproduced his effect since approximately 1991, though he continues to reject charges of fakery, and maintains that his "effect" has
been demonstrated many times in the presence of scientists and, he says, members of the US Army Intelligence and Security Command.
And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience is linked from his wikipedia page too. Doesn't sound too interesting to me.
nbk2000 November 22nd, 2006, 07:53 PM

Yet another example of a discredited mumbo-jumbo 'force'. End thread.
megalomania November 22nd, 2006, 10:21 PM

A scientific principle that cannot be experimentally replicated every time is not science at all. Reproducibility is what makes science, science. Free energy is a pipe dream that
entices the scientifically illiterate. I ask this question: for all those websites that offer plans and blueprints of free energy machines and the like, how come they never actually
BUILD the devices if they are so simple?
nbk2000 November 22nd, 2006, 10:50 PM

This 'Hutchison Effect' is also suspiciously similiar in concept to what I've come to refer to as The Force.
You know...that Jedi ability to manipulate matter by will alone...or as former member Cutefix would say "Manipulate the Chi". :rolleyes:
The Forum is about science (for the most part) and events that are non-reproducible, not done in front of non-aligned witnesses, generate grandeous claims with no proof, and
otherwise subjected to trickery and fraud, don't belong here.
This are other places, besides here, for Cold-Fusion, Loc Ness, Big Foot, UFO's, and other such things to be discussed in a 'serious' manner. ;)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Pranks?
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MaHem87 Novem ber 23rd, 2006, 11:33 AM

Searching through the files I came across this;
T h e r e a r e t h e s e t h i n g s c a l l e d b o m b bags they are com prised of a thick 3 "x5" plastic bag filled with 5 gram s o f s o d i u m
b i c a r b o n a t e a n d a s m aller bag filled with about the sam e a m m o unt of Citric Acid. you can buy them from novelty places and
fairs and carnivals for $.50 each they are used by squeezing the sm aller bag and crushing it allowing the citric acid to come in
contact with the sodiu m bicarb o n a t e r e l e a s i n g g a s s e s t h a t p o p t h e b a g .
and would like to kno w anyone else has sim ilar ideas?:D
random136 Novem ber 24th, 2006, 12:20 AM

How the hell did this o n e g e t through? Yes, what you h a v e d e s c r i b e d is the basic principle b e h i n d t h a t Baking Powder and
Vine gar Volcano (with som e f o o d c o l o r i n g p o s sibly added in to give the lava a m o r e realistic look). You know, t h e t y p e k i d s i n
e l e m entary school build for their scien ce f airs . T h i s p r o c e s s i s a l s o u s e d t o p o p o p e n s t i n k b o m b s which is probably what you
were referring to.
All in all it wo u l d b e q u i t e p r e t e n t i o u s , n o t t o m ention incorrect, for anyb o d y t o a ctually la bel this process a s e x p l o s i v e o r t h e
d e v i c e d e s c r i b e d a b o v e a s a b o m b . T h e t h i n b a g s i m p l y p o p s b e c a u s e it can not hold or further com p r e s s t h e g a s f o r m e d
when the acid (citric a cid) reacts with the base (sodium bicarbonate). This illustrates a simple acid-base rea ction.
T h i s f o r u m d o e s not deal with such trivial, useless, children s p r a n k s . A s s t a t e d a t t h e t o p o f t h i s p a g e t h i s i s T h e E x p l o s i v e s

a n d W e a p o n s Forum a n d n o t t h e Activities for your Young Children to do on a Rainy Day Forum . Yet, I a m r a t h e r c u r i o u s a s
to why the m ods have let this one thro ugh.

I think its go od because it can be used to discus other pranks, childish and not.
A few I've he ard of are:
1. 'Short sheeting' wh ere you m a k e s o m eone bed so their sheets are just a little too short and the y cant pull them up.
2. Mouse traps of the light switches when people come hom e late at light.
3. Bucket of water above the door. (Everyone should know that one)

@ random - chill out, its the water cooler - you know, the place where you can talk about unrealted stuff without fear of
persecution.
I'm curious as to if th at quote is from the archive somewhere. Our post quality hasn't always been what it is today; before we
had the W/C stuff like this filtered through the rest of forum when people were bored and the active topics weren't all that
active.
As to why it got through - "Ours is not to question why." Leave it to the m o d s a n d a s s u m e they have a reason. If your really
worried try th e report post button.
MaHem87 Novem ber 24th, 2006, 08:09 AM

hey man...i can understand where your com ing from and i fully respect that,
i for one...am on a current restricted on what i can buy, etc etc.
i asked this on behalf of a fellow associate, and that i d id not know anym ore than what i found above. m y fellow associate, was
goin g to use it for "childs pay".
That Reflects Nothing Apon Me Nor My Activities.
Thank You
Mahem
and yes it was from the forum s o m ewhere and i give thanks to whoever it was..but i cannot find that individ ual so far.
++++++++++
The letter I is ALWAYS capitalized when referrin g to yourself. Failing to do so is th e l e a d i n g c a u s e o f n 0 0 b i e d e a t h s a r o u n d

here. ;) Correct in the future. NBK
random136 Novem ber 25th, 2006, 03:37 PM

I apologize, perhaps I was a little bit anal of th is thread, my post however was not all criticism . The atm osphere aro und this
f o r u m g i v e s m e t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t n e w s t a n d a r d s h a v e n o w b e e n i m p o s e d , a n d I d o n t m i n d t h a t o n e b i t . I a p p r e c i a t e the
stan d a r d s t h e m o d e r a t o r s h a v e i m p o s e d h e r e a n d I w a s m e r e l y t r y i n g t o u p h o l d t h e m .
F u r t h e r m o r e , I a m n o t a s k i n g why o f t h e m o d e r a t o r s i n order to im ply critique, but rathe r in orde r to learn the wisdom
behind their choices, so that I m a y o n e d a y e m ulate it in m y own choices.
However, since this thread has been deem ed acceptable by others I will partake.
cTech, in reading your number 3 suggestion I was reminded of a scene in a (foreign) film I once saw, where a blind war
vete ran sets up a bucket full of gasoline in a similar fashion on his door in his retirement home room . W h e n t h e a s s a i l a n t h e
w a s e x p e c t i n g c o m e s t h r o u g h t h e d o o r a n d g e t s s o a k e d t h e v e t e r a n h e a r s h i m a n d s i m ply lights a m atch and throws it at him .
Various im plications exist in this techn ique, as it would probably constitu te m urder r a t h e r t h e n a f u n n y p r a n k ( a n d the
inhe rent risks surrounding fire ), but this should be very sim ple to pull off by a sig h t e d m a n .
For a non- violent approach, there is always the possibility of substituting water in the bucket for another less desirable
substance such as super glue, paint, o r anim al feces. Hilarity ensues!
nbk2000 Novem ber 25th, 2006, 04:15 PM

W e can't be KILL! KILL! KILL! everyday. :p
Besides, you can practice your booby-trapping techniques and switches openly, just by setting off party-pop p e r s i n s t e a d o f
claym ores.
Get the kids interested and educated in the skills in a m anner that won't have the State taking them from y o u a s t h e y s e n d
you to prison forever.
J u s t h a v e s o m e fun! Life is a drag as it is, so live it up a little.
a_bab Novem ber 25th, 2006, 05:20 PM

How about m a k i n g a p i p e b o m b , b y a d d i n g s o m e s o d i u m bicarbonate and a jar o f vinegar, closing the cap, and then shaking
the device in order to break the jar? Is this a prank anym ore? I don't think so. Such a device would probably be able to
d e m o l i s h s o m ething m ade of wood.
Just im a g i n e : e a s y t o g e t a n d super cheap materials, "built in" tim er by the very nature of the device, power...
Match Novem ber 25th, 2006, 08:06 PM

Searching through the files I came across this;
Ahhh, the go od ol' Stink bom b. Som e o f m y g r e a t e s t m emories of junior highschool involve these little guys. :cool: Pinch the
pack and toss it in a friends locker, or in the foyer at lunch. Very useful for evacuating sheeple. Although som e h a p p e n t o b e
duds, but what can you expect for 75 cents.
Another good prank is the classic dog-shit-in-a-bag-on-fire-on-someones-door-step.
or the Tie-their-m ailb ox-to-their-door-knob.
T h e b e s t p o s s i b l e p r a n k i s w h e n s o m e o n e p a s s e s o u t o n your couch and you elevated the couch as high as you can, when the
victim s goes to get up for the inevitable m orning hungo ver piss, he gets a nice little suprise. :D
MaHem87 Novem ber 25th, 2006, 10:46 PM

LMao, I was in a fabric store a few weeks back and came across the poppers in th e christm as crack ers; was thinking about
surp ising a m ate or fam ily m ember by taping once side to a door and the other to the fram e. Not very inve ntive, but never the
less...still pathetic :P
Alexires Novem ber 25th, 2006, 11:34 PM

W hile it may seem a little kewlish, I th ink that there is definitely potential to this. Think outside the square .
My girlfriend's dad ha s a habit of putting booby traps around when she com es to m y house (He wa s in the army) and I drop
her hom e.
For instance, one night, it m ig ht be a pile of cans hooked up to a piece of fishing wire, where another thing it could be a bottle
n e a r t h e d o o r so when we ope n it, it m a k e s n o i s e .
Adapt this to something. Instead of needed steel wire for a claym ore or som e kind of fancy trip system, think about using
fishing line. Preform a lot of p ranks on people, so that you get a feeling for how to hide them , what works and what doesn't.
Even children can be an inspiration to those willing to listen.
And hell, you will learn that people only really appreciate original and intelligent p ranks. You won't norm ally get in trouble for
doin g a prank that doesn't hurt anyone and is extrem ely smart at the sa m e t i m e .
L e t s l o o k a t 1 e x a m p le. You know that old trick where you heat a coin up and throw it out into a co rridor so that when som e o n e
tries to pick it up, the y burn themselves? W ell, why heat the coin up? Wh y n o t u s e s o m e t h i n g e l s e ?
A little VX painted on a coin will have som e interesting effects.
Let your imagination run wild.
jimmyboy1 January 14th , 2 0 0 7 , 1 2 : 4 2 P M

http://www.m etacafe.com /watch/38347 4/neat_prank_windows_xp_hack/
I did this to a coworker (a very unpleasant one) - he fin ally brok e down and reinstalled XP to stop his m achine from shutting
down everytim e after pressing "Z" on his keyboard.... i cracked up so m uch..
Sausagemit January 15th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 8 : 5 9 P M

Pinch the pack and toss it in a friends locker, or in the foyer at lunch. Very useful for evacuating sheeple.
T h a t b r i n g s b a c k s o m e m e m o ries. Me and m y friends were a buch of fucking assholes.
T h e r e s t h e g o o d o l d s m ashing the hot-dog in the book trick right before christma s break. By the time they get back it's all
different shades of gross.
Another good one is to replace the contents of a m a g a z i n e e s e n t i a l f o r a class with filthy porn.
W e also put a live squirrel in a friends locker once. The hardest part was getting the squirrel in a backpack. Too bad he didn 't
open up his locker when the h alls were filled. :( The squirrel did make a m e s s t h o u g h .
ultma January 15th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 9 : 1 2 P M

W hen a frien d is asleep/intoxicated get some 0.1N Silver Nitrate and carefully paint a swazi or anything on there forehead,
dont get it in their eyes
and presto later on in the shower or some time later they have a black/b rown silvernitrate blood blister thin g thats sticks
a r o u n d f o r s o m e tim e
Match January 15th , 2 0 0 7 , 1 1 : 5 3 P M

W hen a frien d is asleep/intoxicated get some 0.1N Silver Nitrate and carefully paint a swazi or anything on there forehead,
dont get it in their eyes
and presto later on in the shower or some time later they have a black/b rown silvernitrate blood blister thin g thats sticks
a r o u n d f o r s o m e tim e
Thats just sa distic.
BUt that would be a n ice touch to put on bum s down town, you know, so that you know you've already 'dosed' that one.
c.Tech January 16th , 2007, 02:34 AM

Dilute potassium perm anganate solution should work too and its O TC.
tiac03 January 16th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 2 : 0 4 P M

My favorite Boobytr... Um m m I mean prank, was when we conne cted a half a bottle cap of AP to a clothespin trip wire, and
connected it to a m etal gate that our buddy had to open for work.
First priority was safety so we m ade sure that it was around the corner from him w h e n h e o p e n e d t h e g a t e s o t h a t n o t h i n g
would hit him when it went off.
W e set it at around 8 pm , and warned the grou p about staying away from the are a. Finally at 11 we were all sitting waiting and
watching as he walked towards the gate. He swings it open and.... Nothing.
Finally just as we started thinking "O h no a dud" the bottle cap went off and our buddy almost shit a brick. The look on his face
is still burned into m y m ind and everytim e we rem e m ber that night we still laugh.
The delay was about 1.5 seconds give or take. My close st thought as to why there was a d elay was the initiator I m a d e . I t o o k
a christmas bulb, broke off the tip, filled it with homem ade BP and held that in with a bit of cotton.
My BP was just m i x e d so It didn't have anywhere near the quality of the comm ercial stuff.
It burns slow And by the tim e it burned out of the bulb (or had enough force to crack it) m y b u d d y h a d h a d e n o u g h t i m e t o l e t
g o o f t h e g a t e a n d t u rn to face us, which I think made it much b etter tha n had he still been facing the gate.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Nuclear Batteries in laptops
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I cam e across an article 'http://www.da naquarium.com/article.php?story=2005021 8182306134' that states that a British
company came out with a nuclear battery (NB) to be used in laptops. I was not able to confirm this from any other resource,
which leads me to believe that this is a joke. Does anyone know if there is ANY truth to this? Anyone knows about the cost/watt
of NBs.
Background.
Nuclear Batteries have been used for more than half a century for applications that require long-term power regardless of cost.
NBs convert the energy associated with the decay of a nucleus into usable electric energy. Many isotopes are used for this
p u r p o s e . T h e s e i s o t o p e s a r e g e n e r a l l y o f m oderate halflives (months to years) and are self-fissioning and/or alpha / b e t a
e m itters.
I t s e e m s i m probable to have a nuclear-powered laptop battery, as the cost would be prohibitively high. For example, to have a
7 0 W att tritium -based battery you would have to have : P=IV 70W =(5.7keV/decay)*(3.7E1 0decay/Ci)(#Ci)/6.28E18, solving for
n u m ber of Curies, 2.08E6Ci of activity (ideal case).
Give n 20% efficiency with latest techno logy, thats 10^7C i!!!! Thats enorm ous from the regulation point of view, I dont see
anything of this nature getting licensed for public use. Even considering mass-pro duction, and use of radioisotopes that are of
fission byproduct type (rad-wa ste), the cost of so much radioactive material is going to be in dosens, or even hundredths of
thousands USD.
Chris The Great Novem ber 25th, 2006, 01:54 AM

The nuclear power will trickle charge the norm al battery, so it will get rech arged without getting plugged in. At least, that is if
this isn't a hoax, but it seem s reasonable. I've seen this technology be discussed for this application before.
knowledgehungry Novem ber 25th, 2006, 03:57 AM

This technology is used to power m any space p robes, such as th e New Horizons probe. 'http://www.space.com/spacenews/
b u s i n e s s m o n d a y _ 0 4 1 0 0 4 . h t m l'
The technolo gy is called a radioisotope thermal generator 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_therm oelectric_generator'
As to it's use for powering laptops, I don't see any reason why it couldn't be used other than it see m s a b i t u n n e c e s s a r y a n d
expensive.
ShadowMyGeekSpace Novem ber 25th, 2006, 04:16 AM

e x p e n s i v e . B e c a u s e t h e s h e e p l e b e l i e v e a n y t h i n g a n d e v e r y t h i n g nuclear is bad... never m ind that they've got atleast one or
two sm o k e a l a r m s in their house, which contain a little amm o u n t o f a m ericium , or the radiation CR Ts generate, etc etc.
simply RED Novem ber 25th, 2006, 06:26 PM

I a m strongly FO R nu clear energy! But this one idea is not very practical...

This depends on what the laptop will be used for. A US Army sniper hooked up with the latest techno gear, display screens, and
im aging sensors on day 15 of his perch could benefit from a nuclear battery. Oceanographic explorers on e xtended underwa ter
dives might as well. Basically any com puting application in a rem ote area that can't use solar powe r could b enefit from a
nuclear battery. You will not see these used for extended gam ing sessions in Alie nware laptops, or anything for civilian use. As
if laptop batteries were not ex p e n s i v e e n o u g h
Element13 Novem ber 26th, 2006, 10:17 PM

Nuclear batteries m ay never be available to civilians, bu t it is possible to get what I like to call a nuclear powered flashlight.
They are con sidered a trivial use of nukes by the governm e n t a n d a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e a v a i l a b l e o n l y t o m ilitary and law
enforcem ent personnel.
Tritium is used to excite a phosphor with beta particles. This results in a very dim light that slowly becomes dim m er. I've seen
an example of one that still gives off light 20 years after it was m anufactured. Th e half-life of tritium is about 12 years. It
does not give of much light but it's enough to read a map in total darkness if your eyes are fully a dapted to the dark.
T h e y a r e s u p p o s e d l y s a f e b e c a u s e n o g a m m a radiation is created.

There are a few item s available to the public th at are loaded with tritium . Tritium is used for illumination in those ca ses. It is
not terribly difficult to find displays, signs, keychains etc. that use tritium. Such item s will have activity up to dozens of curies.
Now that I think abou t it, I am surprised that we don't h ear of people extracting H-3, making water out of it and the n using it
to cause disturbance in public places. Few curies in the right place would certainly get media attention, just start speaking in
term s of disintegratio n s p e r s e c o n d a n d you have a story. Now if som e b o d y d i s c o v e r s q u e s t i o n a b l e c h e m icals in your garage
and a bottle labeled as "tritium -water" next to them, yo u a r e b o u n d t o b e f a m o u s .
thunderbird Novem ber 27th, 2006, 11:25 AM

This technology is used to power m any space p robes, such as th e New Horizons probe. 'http://www.space.com/spacenews/
b u s i n e s s m o n d a y _ 0 4 1 0 0 4 . h t m l'
The technolo gy is called a radioisotope thermal generator 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_therm oelectric_generator'
expensive.
I know that a R a d i o i s o t o p e g e n e r a t o r o p e r a t e s o n t h e b a s i s o f t h e r m o - e l e c t r i c i t y . T h i s m e a n s t h a t a s e m i-conductor plate is
c o o l e d o n o n e s i d e ( i n t h e c a s e o f f o r e x a m p l e t h e V o y a ger probes, the cold of sp a c e ) , a n d h e a t e d on the other(the decaying
isotope block) the difference in temperature will set up a voltage difference between the two sides of the plate, crea ting an
electric battery.
It would be a bit hard to achie ve the required tem eprature difference on earth without exp e n s i v e a n d b u l k y e q u i p m e n t a n d / o r
danger of radiation dam age to the populace.
Therefore, I don't really see h ow a nuclear-powered laptop could exist...

Now that I think abou t it, I am surprised that we don't h ear of people extracting H-3, making water out of it and the n using it
to cause disturbance in public places. Few curies in the right place would certainly get media attention, just start speaking in
term s of disintegratio n s p e r s e c o n d a n d you have a story. Now if som e b o d y d i s c o v e r s q u e s t i o n a b l e c h e m icals in your garage
and a bottle labeled as "tritium -water" next to them, yo u a r e b o u n d t o b e f a m o u s .
Or considering the wa y the press loves hyperbo le all you need is a bottle of tritium water taped to a pipe bom b left on a bus to
b e f o u n d b y p o l i c e a n d w e h a v e " N U C L E A R D I R T Y B O M B A T T A C K N A R R O W LY AVOIDED!"
atlas#11 Novem ber 28th, 2006, 01:30 PM

So now were trying to get a bad nam e ? D o n ' t f e e d t h e m e d i a , t h e g o v e r n m e n t h a s s t a g e d enough terrorism already.
I think the m icro-turb ines they're working on have a bit more prom i s e t h a n d u m p ing fissable m aterials into consum er items.
Nuclear powe r is neat, and effective, but its not going to be released to civilians a ny tim e s o o n .
Lance000 D e c e m ber 6th, 2006, 12:21 AM

I know that a R a d i o i s o t o p e g e n e r a t o r o p e r a t e s o n t h e b a s i s o f t h e r m o - e l e c t r i c i t y . T h i s m e a n s t h a t a s e m i-conductor plate is
c o o l e d o n o n e s i d e ( i n t h e c a s e o f f o r e x a m p l e t h e V o y a ger probes, the cold of sp a c e ) , a n d h e a t e d on the other(the decaying
isotope block) the difference in temperature will set up a voltage difference between the two sides of the plate, crea ting an
electric battery.
It would be a bit hard to achie ve the required tem eprature difference on earth without exp e n s i v e a n d b u l k y e q u i p m e n t a n d / o r
danger of radiation dam age to the populace.
I just have to add som ething here. Radioisotopic Therm oelectric Generators are just as su itable for use on earth. In fact, the
pola r/arctic region coast of Russia are filled with unmanned lighthouses, powered by RTG's. The Kola peninsula is full of them .
They are powered by Strontium-90, and contain thousands of TBq of radiation per unit, with no ill effects on the surroundings.
It is when these devices are decom missioned, that they are left un-checked and rusting/breaking up, that they becom e
hazardous.
The radiation from RTG's is usually Beta particles, which can be shielded with very sm all am ounts of m ass, like a quarter inch
of steel, etc.
Acrolein D e c e m ber 21st, 2006 , 06:22 PM

I d o r e m e m b e r s e i n g a e p e s o d e o f N o v a a b o u t t h a t s o m e y e a r s b a c k , b u t i t s e e m s o u t t h ere to have a nuclear powered
laptop.:rolleyes: Does anyone know th e p a t e n t n u m ber for these batteries?:confused: It would be nice to know how to extract
it. The nuclear m aterial could have plenty of uses:)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Todays rant : EDITED
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rayman Novem ber 26th, 2006, 11:51 AM

Bein g a newbie here I realy dont want to cause any waves, but b eing a researcher I must say what piss's m e off is reading
threads and seeing things like this
*** rem o v e d * * *
or
Deleted by poster
That realy piss's me off, If you make an error and wish to correct it edit your post or repost with edit's, Please do not delete
you post, or edit it so that the following 6 or 10 posts are of no use, How are we to learn what you did wrong so that we can
learn from your m i s t a k e s i f y o u d e l e t e t h e m
I can under stand if a m od rem oves / m o v e s / d e l e t e s i t o r e d i t s a s n e e d e d , b u t t h e y a t l e a s t l e a v e a r e a s o n f o r d o i n g s o
Thank you for allowing m e this time to get that out :)
Edited this post to include ... Pictures
D a m n I hate reading some ones post saying lots of good things about whats in the picture .. that is no longer viewable, post
your pics on this server please so we can all see what your talking about 4 years from now
:: End edit

W e now disable the a bility to edit a post after several hours because of this very reason. Som e very good inform ation was
r e d a c t e d c a u s i n g s u b s e q u e n t p o s t s t o s e e m out of context. The staff only removes content that is in violation of the rules
including spam advertism e n t s , r e p e a t e d i n f o , v i r u s / s c a m l i n k s , a n d d a n g e r o u s s t u p i d i t y q u o t e d f r o m c r a p b o o k s .

The ability to host pictures on the site was only added recently (last year?).
W e also don't delete users, sim ply banning them, since that would remove the details of who posted what, due to the way the
board software works.
rayman Novem ber 27th, 2006, 09:02 PM

I u n d e r s t a n d , in regards to pictures its rather annoying when people use photobucket or what have you and when there albam s
are full or wh at have you they delete p ictures to make room for pics of there cats playing ...
Its good to know that you have added picture capabiltie s to the forum, I being a newer mem b e r a n d a l s o a n e w b i e t o
chemistry need all the info I can get to stay safe and keep all m y fingers and toes while learning and expe rimenting in this
field ( think twice act once )
I would also like to take this time to thank Nbk m e g a a n d a l l t h e o t h e r s t h a t h a v e m a d e t h i s f o r u m a g r e a t r e s o u r c e

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Dreams
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We all love dreams, find them interesting, weird, happy, and horrible.
What has been a distinct dream that you remember? It could be crazy, w hacked, blissful, pointless, strange or the best type of dream SEX ;).
I dont have many that stick in my mind for over a w eek but once I did have a dream that started as a horrible kidnapping turning into something m uch better.
From w hat I remember it goes something like this.

----
I was trapped, being held captive somew here, possibly in a cell. I used different techniques to get out (I think lock piking was one of them) and finally broke free.
When I got outside I realised the forest was much like the one on kissing girls although luckily I w asn t getting raped when held captive.
I then realised I w as next to 3 other guys who broke out at the same time as me (they were obviously prisoners too)
Suddenly I got the urge to go back, they came back w ith me and in the house w e broke free from there were 4 chicks :D, one for each of us and I knew one of them, the
others were her friend.
You can tell w hat happened from there, it turned into the best type of dream.
----
Now I would love to hear of your dreams and/or nightmares if its not too much trouble.
fiknet November 26th, 2006, 12:33 PM

The problem w ith dreams is that I have had many vivid ones but I often forget them within moments of waking up, I might consider a dream log but they really don't serve
much of an important purpose other then simple amusement.
One enjoyable dream that I remember is that it w as a real nice night and I w as outside my house and I could fly, then I began flying around my neighborhood and had a pretty
good feeling.
Sometimes when I dream I can reach a semi-lucid state, mainly in nightmares where I know it's a dream and I desperately try to wake from it before pain is inflicted.
L012DofWAR November 26th, 2006, 03:48 PM

The most memorable dream that I've had was a disturbing one, and I've had it multiple times. In it, I start off flying through a black sky. Below me is a city made of dark
brown sand. All of the cars, people, roads and buildings are all made of the same color sand, yet I can see distinct features such as people's faces, lines in the road and stop
lights. Each time, there is a voice that gives me a "tour" of the city and introduces me to different people. Each time it's different, and hard to remember very many details of
the tour. Sort of creepy though...:eek:
On a separate note, I heard that dreams are cause by small amounts of DMT being released into the brain, since all animals release small amounts. That w ould also explain why
filknet and many others forget their dreams soon after w aking up. Some say that DMT is also released w hen the human body is near death, and why humans see things they
claim to be "crossing over," when really, they are just tripping and about to die. 'http://w ww.youtube.com/w atch?v=grcqs9cDuN8' Here's where I heard about that for the first
time, but I have read about the dreams in a few other places.

Hmmm, dreams eh?
My favorite one w ould have to be the one where I am floating. Kind of running around, but levitating about 5 inches of the ground.
The dream that has stuck in my mind for years w as this
I was in a dark old house, with other orphans. The keepers always told us that the landscape outside was scotched, and that to venture out would be certain death.
So we hid within the house. We were also told that there were rats in the walls, and that if we weren't in bed or something like that by a certain time, we would be eaten alive.
I developed a burning desire to know what the outside looked like. One evening, I found a hole in the w all of an abandoned section that a rat had chewed through, and before
me was the most beautiful landscape I had ever seen. Flowers so thick it was impossible to see the ground, against the backdrop of the setting sun.
*smile* I remember that dream still, and wish I could have it again.
Noticable things about it are, the whole dream was in black and w hite until i looked outside. Only the outside was in colour, and until that moment i forgot w hat it was like to
see colour, so you can imagine the shock.
This dream has happened to me countless times. If I had to guess, I would say at least 20 times through my life.
Seeing that outside landscape was bittersweet, as it w as so beautiful, but I knew I was going to die when I w as caught.
Most incredible.
knowledgehungry November 27th, 2006, 02:27 AM

The w orst dreams I have ever had are, after a hard day's work dreaming all night that I am still working, and then upon waking from my dream realizing that I am late for
work. By the end of the day you feel like you have w orked 60 hours straight. Not fun.
Unfortunately I dream these sort of dreams rather often. I have even "sleep worked" on occassion. I work for UPS and have to load packages all night, one night I woke up to
find myself trying to load my pillow s under my bed.

*shudder* fuck that. Sleep time is MY time. The day that starts happening, I'm going to take a long holiday (rest of my life).
Really though, that is absolute bullshit. Anything you can do about it? (The work, not the dreams)

The most frustrating thing that happens in m y dreams (usually makes m e wake up because its s o frustrating) is when people piss me off so much (usually friends I dont know why) I
try to hit them, but when I try to throw a punch I realise my hits are so w eek it doesn t even hurt them, then they usually start laughing w hich piss es me off even more.
I think this is because of the lack of physical capability that I have w hen sleeping caries over to my dreams and as I m unable to sw ing strong punches whilst sleeping it doesnt feel like
Im punching in my dream.
Has anybody else experienced this?
fiknet November 28th, 2006, 01:26 AM

The w orst dreams I have ever had are, after a hard day's work dreaming all night that I am still working, and then upon waking from my dream realizing that I am late for
work. By the end of the day you feel like you have w orked 60 hours straight. Not fun.
I myself have experienced a few of these mainly after a stressful day and I agree they are awful. Normally I will wake up around 3 am and still be thinking in this "Dream
Logic" state w here I'm aw ake, tired as hell and trying get back to sleep while still trying to package fast food under my pillow or do school homework in my head.

I've had those 'Work while Sleeping' dreams, and completely agree that they suck. :(
I also sometimes have dreams of being back in prison. THAT SUCKS!

Then there's my favorite dream of being gang-raped by my harem of supermodels (I wish I actually had such dreams! :p).
I had one dream recently where I dreamed that I was killing feral cats and, w hen I was about to butt-stroke a w ounded one with my rifle, my bitch aunt grabbed the rifle and
was about to hit me with it when I kicked her in the guts. :)
That's when I woke up on the floor w ith my hip hurting from when I kicked out in my sleep and threw myself out of bed in the process. :D

I think this is because of the lack of physical capability that I have w hen sleeping caries over to my dreams and as I m unable to sw ing strong punches whilst sleeping it doesnt feel like
Im punching in my dream.
I've read that during sleep, a hormone is released that causes a kind of paralysis.
Keeps people from undue activity while sleeping that could get them hurt.
I used to partially awake and couldn't move, I think this might have been the cause.
knowledgehungry November 28th, 2006, 11:55 PM

There isn't much you can do to stop the dreams from happening. Dreams are the subconcious' w ay of dealing with stress and problems, so if your w ork day has been stressful it
often w ill carry over into the dreamworld. Since UPS is a high stress job I just have to deal w ith it, although the dreams have grown less as I grow more used to the job. That is
one of many reasons why I am not planning on being working there by this time next year.
Alexires November 29th, 2006, 02:10 AM

Fucking Ace knowledgehungry.
As I said, I'd get rid off a job like that as soon as I could. For instance, I loath being at my current job, and its a waste of my life to spend 40 hours a week doing something I
hate doing. So soon, I will being into retail (I hope).
Chris The Great December 4th, 2006, 04:45 AM

The most frustrating thing that happens in m y dreams (usually makes m e wake up because its s o frustrating) is when people piss me off so much (usually friends I dont know why) I
try to hit them, but when I try to throw a punch I realise my hits are so w eek it doesn t even hurt them, then they usually start laughing w hich piss es me off even more.
I connected solidly, I think. I was more concerned because I hit the wall hard enough to take the skin off a few of my knuckles. It w as not a fun way to wake up!
He hit me in the back, and I turned around and slugged him... aka the w all. And I slugged him pretty hard, unfortunately.
Jacks Complete December 4th, 2006, 10:41 AM

It's not a hormone, it is a part of the brain that inhibits movement. The idea is that it reduces almost any movement right down, if not totally suppressed, to prevent you hurting
yourself or others. Doesn't always quite work, of course, and sleepwalkers have some serious issues.
I'm trying to unlearn lucid dreaming. It's a nightmare to always be aw ake. I'm getting there.
Cobalt.45 December 4th, 2006, 05:33 PM

It's not a hormone, it is a part of the brain that inhibits movement.
And the part of the brain that does this, does it with hormones.:rolleyes:
It's thought that melatonin has a function in it...
Jome skanish December 4th, 2006, 10:59 PM

Well, I keep a dream log next to my bed in an effort to start having lucid dreams...
This one entry:
I'm trespassing in a big house, it is filled with old trash, and I'm looking for things of worth.
I keep walkning through the house, seeing that it is actually an enormous labyrinth with dozens of rooms. Some of them has doors to the outside, but all of these doors seem to
lead to different outsides..
After a while I'm told (or, rather mysteriously "know") that I've arrived at an anchorpoint of reality where I have the opportunity to see possible futures.
I see a big house on a slope facing a lake, and I remember clearly how much I w ant that happy, rich family-life to happen.
I could even draw the house so clear I see it, it's one of those one-and-a-half store (or, more likely 2,5) houses they build in slopes, with a triangular section facing the lake and
a pyramidesqe layout of the bigger roof. A wood-deck veranda goes along the frontside, and the whole design is weirdly norse-futuristic. There also is five children and a blond
woman w hose face I never see, but she's there.
I wake up feeling an uncomfortable emptyness, the image of the house being everyhing my life isn't. Like my unconscious designed the dream to remind me that things
currently suck.

Would it be possible to dream of doing or committing something that would be against your "moral conscience"?
I read somewhere long ago, that this would be unlikely.
I have had a dream off and on for as long as I can remember, of finding and picking up coins that are laying on the ground.
Sometimes, there are just a few, more often, many. This may occur during a dream that has nothing to do w ith it. Weird.
Lance000 December 5th, 2006, 11:02 PM

On a separate note, I heard that dreams are cause by small amounts of DMT being released into the brain, since all animals release small amounts. That w ould also explain why
filknet and many others forget their dreams soon after w aking up. Some say that DMT is also released w hen the human body is near death, and why humans see things they
claim to be "crossing over," when really, they are just tripping and about to die. 'http://w ww.youtube.com/w atch?v=grcqs9cDuN8' Here's where I heard about that for the first
time, but I have read about the dreams in a few other places.
Trust me, it's the complete opposite. Dreams are real, meatspace is just a waste of time. But we exist to dominate BOTH "locations", so don't go killing yourselves just yet...
Think I'm rambling? That's normal. But every time I've been arrested, I've seen it happen in my dreams way ahead of time, and almost exactly the way it happens. From an
"observer" point of view. I am all around everyone, the police, myself, everyone. I am in the air too, above. But I tell you, there is some weird stuff out there that I can't
explain yet.
But some things have happened in different ways than they were dreamt. I don't know for sure if it's because I have been 100% ON and watching every move I make, so as to
not do anything that w ill cause the events to happen, but the net effect seems to become the same result as the outcome of my dreams, but through other ways.
I get these things in non-sleeping conditions too, like once I dropped my mom off at the "interstate" bus terminal, and SMACK i got this feeling that some man was going to
threaten her on the bus. She had just gottened on the bus when I got it, but I told her to call me from her cellphone if she w anted anything, so the day passed and she called
me after getting to her destination, and told me this drunk guy had been harassing her and other passengers, and she had talked back to him, prompting manhandling by the
drunk, and some heavy bruises on her arm. I asked her w hy she hadn't called me, but she said "I grew up in the city, I can handle myself as well as you" yeah, right... she's
weak and grew up in the nice old 60's.
We have a tradition for listening to our dreams and gut feelings up here, (I'm from scandinavia by the w ay...) but people don't pay attention to these things anymore. On
Iceland the people can actually still say that they believe in their dreams, because everyone believes in it, and it's not populare to call people crazy because they have more
information flowing to them from various sources. If you dream that your fishing boat goes down on iceland, then you don't fish for a couple of days. It's that simple. That's
what I do too. Just steer clear of everything that can remotely get you in trouble. That's what I think dreams are really for.
knowledgehungry January 28th, 2007, 11:38 AM

I just had the craziest dream last night.
In the dream I was at a bar, but the bar had been closed to the public and instead it was filled with people from here. I forget w hich members. It w as pretty cool just to sit at a
bar and shoot the shit about E@W with people.
tiac03 January 29th, 2007, 01:26 AM

I miss nightmares. I havn't had a good ol' scare you awake dream since I was in gradeschool. Think it is from desensitizing myself to violence w ith movies and internet.
I have had the "Punching dreams" and the "trying to runaway from something but being pushed back by the wind" (or some other unseen force) dreams and the most
aggrevating ones, the "have a gun to shoot things with but they don't fire" dreams.
One recurring Dream I used to have as a child was having to walk into a waist deep body of water inorder to trip a lever to empty the water (different levers every time
though). Once the lever was tripped a whirlpool formed and I had to get out of the water before it pulled me under. Landscape w as alw ays desolate.
Last couple of dreams I remember were to do with being part of a team that is given orders and equipment (fun equipment at that) to carry out certain missions involving the A
word. Alw ays woke up before we took anyone out... damned phones... lol
Lewis January 29th, 2007, 03:12 AM

It's fairly ironic because the dreams we are prematurely awoken from are the only ones w e can remember!
Think how many grand finales we've had from dreams that had enough time to draw to their conclusion because of complete sleep, only to suffer amnesia from it!
c.Tech January 29th, 2007, 05:17 AM

It's fairly ironic because the dreams we are prematurely awoken from are the only ones w e can remember!
You can actually remember your other dreams if you write them down as soon as you wake, its one of the things you need to do to teach yourself lucid dreaming. This becomes
a bitch when your trying to write them down whilst tired every morning.
I used to have reoccurring dreams or characteristics as a child, one of the things that was in a few of my dreams is the inability to call for help. I would get to a point where fear had
overcome me and I couldn t m ove then w hen I finally snapped out of it I yelled at the top of my lungs but nothing w ould come out, how much I feared for my life multiplied by 10 then I
woke up because I was too scared.
I used to have falling dreams as well, one where I would be falling and falling and falling with nothingness around me just black, then I hit the bottom.
Another reoccurring dream I had was where I was trying to save a friend at school from some guy with a gun, it was only us 3 and I hid him then tried to get him to safety.
When I finally got him out I got shot.
A reoccurring dream my father had was quite creepy, he w as standing on a beach next to a short black man who he said looks Sri Lankan. They saw the water getting pulled
out, looked at each other and said, "We better run."
2 weeks after the 2nd time he had the dream the Asian tsunami disaster happened.
anonymous411 January 30th, 2007, 04:31 AM

If you're having troubled sleep, you might want to take an extra B-complex vitamin and another 50mg of niacin (B3):
***
Ebben et al., investigated the effect of pyridoxine (vitamin B6) on dreams in a placebo-controlled, double-blinded study. The researchers examined if vitamin B6 increased
dream vividness or the ability to recall dreams. A dozen college students participated in three treatment conditions (ingesting either 100mg B6, 250mg B6, or a placebo prior to
bedtime) for a period of five consecutive days.
Findings show ed a significant difference in dream-salience scores (measures included vividness, bizarreness, emotionality, and color) between the 250mg condition and placebo.
Vitamin B6 might increase cortical arousal during periods of rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, the researchers suggested.
P. Chan et al. investigated the safety and efficacy of vitamin B complex capsules in a double-blinded, placebo-controlled study in elderly patients w ith severe nocturnal leg
cramps. After three months of the study, 86 percent of the patients taking vitamin B had prominent remission of leg cramps, whereas the placebo group experienced no
difference. The frequency, intensity and duration of nocturnal leg cramps were reduced. Vitamin B complex is a relatively safe and effective alternative, which clinicians should
consider in the treatment for nocturnal leg cramps.
Other studies suggest that vitamin B12 may maintain the homeostasis of sleep and/or w ake cycles, improve the sleep quality and increase alertness in a work environment.
cyclosarin January 30th, 2007, 07:58 AM

I don't think I've ever had recurring dreams, mine seem to be based strongly on things I've recently experienced such as movies or events from the previous day.
I've tried recording dreams but I usually assume that I'll still remember it later on.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Phenol from Toluene
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itslenders Novem ber 27th, 2006, 04:34 AM

I a m not sure if this is a stupid question (I did a search and found nothing) but is it possible to convert Toluene to Phenol b y
any simple m ethod?
Tolu ene is easy to com e by (even available at hardware stores) but Phenol is very difficult and expensive to get.

T h a t d e p e n d s o n w h a t your definition of sim ple is. It is not that difficult to oxidize toluene t o b e n z o i c a c i d u s i n g p o t a s s i u m
permanganate among many other oxidizing reagents; a procedure I believe is on my website.
The benzoic acid then undergoes further oxidation to phenol. Molten benzoic acid a n d c a t a l y t i c a m o u n t s o f m a g n e s i u m
b e n z o a t e a n d c u p r i c b e n z o a t e (form ed by reacting copp e r o x i d e a n d m a g n e s i u m oxide with benzoic acid) are sparged with air
a n d s t e a m . Phenol then distills off.
For m ore specifics on the latter process see US patent 3,929,911, and for a less efficient, but lab scale reaction see US patent
2,762,838.
There are other ways, but that is the top method using toluene as a starting material.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > DBC Pyrotechnics
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CosmikDebris Novem ber 27th, 2006, 12:51 PM

Has anyone ever heard of or used this supplier?
T h i s g u y s e e m s all to helpful to m e, bringing up things we dream about.:confused:
'http://www.d bcpyrotechnics.co m/servlet/StoreFront'
pearlcrash911 Novem ber 27th, 2006, 11:07 PM

All o f the chemicals were bought on eb ay and at united nuclear.
All o f the fuse was bo ught at pyrocreations.
All o f the misc. was bought at united nuclear.
All o f the novelty fireworks were bought at skylighter.
All o f the plans and k its are easily found for free on google.
All o f the salute cannons were bought at pyrocreations.
All o f the shells were bought at pyrocreations.
All o f the special effects item s were bought at skylighter.
Everything else was bought at united n uclear.
I would highly advise buying from their original source, because all of his prices are double what th ey are really worth.
H e m a y b e a nice guy, but he wasted a lot of tim e putting together this site.
CosmikDebris Novem ber 28th, 2006, 01:01 PM

Thanks for the heads up!:)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > New Look to Forum
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Must have been a lot of work!
I especially like the "Get New Posts" link.:cool:
Thanks!

There is probably more to com e, check out the thread (Forum shutdown week)
random136 Novem ber 28th, 2006, 02:18 AM

It's funny, I haven't been here all that long, alm ost a year now. Looking at both of your join dates I now see why you two think
this is a new look.
This is what the forum u s e d t o l o o k l i k e f o r q u i t e s o m e time until just a few m onths back. For the exact date, one would have
to search out another thread authored by Megalom a n i a .
Oh, and the "Get New Posts since your visit" button is available in one of the two previous forum lo oks as well, it was just under
the Q uick Links tab som ewhere.
P e r s o n a l l y , I m i s s e d s e e i n g t h e g o o d o l d E & W m otto of beating plowshears into swords, because it's sym bolic of what we stu dy
here every day.

I knew what it looked like, I use to visit here a lot before I registered as user. Just thought we were going back to the older
look that I personally like better. But then I saw on the home page top right corner "Last Update August 18, 2004" and
realised it would probably only be tem porary.

I a m reverting som e of the cu stom templates, so I switched to the default one fo r now. Don't get used to it...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > A thought about an airgun
gatling ...
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electricdetonator Novem ber 28th, 2006, 09:41 AM

That's the idea:
Buy eight cheap sprin g airguns cal .177 BB should be OK

Disa s s e m ble the guns into the barrels and spring parts, throw away the stocks
Build four round receivers to p ut the barrels and springparts
Build a receiver like a corkscrew around the spring parts
Build a slope receiver and put it between the beginning and end of the corkscrew part, going towards the barrels
Build som e levers to bend the springs when traveling through the corkscrew part
Use a bigger electro engine with gear to drive it
Build a big container fitting into the gap between the ba rrels
Put a sim p l e m a g n e t o n t h e e nd of every barre l for loading
P o u r s o m e thousand steel BBs into the container
Switch on the engine and have fun
W hat do you think ?

W ould it be practical or just a waste of time ?
The idea is that the lever at the slope part will be set free and fire the BB out of the barrel.
It wont be accurate at all but with let's say 600 rpm s it'll be a rof of 4800 BBs per minute ;)
I know there are airsoft guns m im icing the real M134 7,62 m m gatling but I think that's the easiest way to build your own
gatling with some mo re power then these ;)
C o m ments welcome ;)
Mr. 47 Novem ber 28th, 2006, 06:42 PM

Its already been done but its still a cool idea.
'http://www.m ontysm iniguns.com /forsalestuff.htm '

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > U proar over youtube key
bum ping videos
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DMSOnMyVeins Novem ber 29th, 2006, 08:26 PM

Just watched inside edition and they had a story on the key bum p i n g v i d e o s a v a i l a b l e o n y o u t u b e .
Acco rding to inside edition the re is an international uproar over these videos being m a d e a v a i l a b l e on youtube. I'll be
downloading all the keybum ping videos in case they are pulled from y o u t u b e a n d I'll upload them to rapidshare and post the
links here so that our freedom is not inhibited.
Skean Dhu Novem ber 29th, 2006, 08:59 PM

Theres already a wonderful rather definitive video guide to bum pkey-ing , by an online lockpicking group http://www.toool.nl/
inde x - e n g . p h p
S o u n l e s s t h e y o u t u b e v i d e o s a r e a n y t h i n g e x c e p t i o n a l o r h a v e a m azing revelations you're more o r less wa sting your tim e.
rayman Novem ber 29th, 2006, 09:43 PM

I would think that the m ore different sources for inform ation the better, No matter that they m ay n ot be 'anything exceptional'
Match Novem ber 29th, 2006, 11:00 PM

I'm sure it's just a ploy to get more awareness for you-tube for the eventual turn around to a profit generating venture. Play
the sheeple, Play the sheeple.
W e b s i t e s l i k e g o o g l e , w i k i p e d i a , m y s p a c e a n d y o u - t u b e worry me.
Nihilist Novem ber 30th, 2006, 03:17 PM

Don't you love their logic?
"Our security devices are so poorly made that internet videos are teachin g k i d s h o w t o b y p a s s t h e m . L e t ' s d e m o n i z e t h e
authors of th e videos.".
Fucking idiots.

W hether or not the in formation is valuable, or if it is bunk, is entirely irre levant to the situation at hand. Th e fact is the
information is perceived by the media to be dangerous, harmful, and by extrapolating that logic, to be valid useful knowledge.
The sheeple are led to believe it, so it must be so.
I can alm ost guarantee that the videos will be pulled because of the negative publicity the Tube is getting. However, the videos
will be pulled after Tu be rides the wave of controversy and everyone gets to download them , and then Tube will get more
publicity for being responsible once they are rem oved.
It should be self evident that a rock can just as easily b e used to smash a window to break in, just as it should be a m atch to
gasoline m akes just as much a bom b as a pou nd of acetone peroxide. These teenagers did not create the key bum ping
techniques, they didn t even popularize the videos. The lock industry figured this stuff out, and the m edia popularized it.
I h e a r d o f t h i s i s s u e e a r l i e r t o d a y b e c a u s e s o m eone I know was complaining about the availability of dangerous information

on the Internet. I said there are lock picking books at the public library, and there is a locksm ith in every town with this
knowledge. No inform a t i o n i s d a n g e r o u s , n o t o o l i s a w e a p o n , a n d n o s k i l l i s h a r m f u l U N T I L a p e r s o n c h o o s e s t o d o s o m e t h i n g
wrong with it. Blame the Internet, blam e the cam era m anufacturers, hell blam e m e for all thats worth, but whatever you do
dont blam e the people responsible. No one wo uld have been the wiser to these videos excepting the m edia choose to run the
story over and over and over. Now the cat is out of the bag.
W hats the big secret anyway? Like I just mentioned, a rock can just as easily smash a window. People have been p icking locks
since there were locks. This is not som e dark classified secret, but kids d oing what kids do: break stuff.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Eliteforum - I find this very questionable
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View Full Version : Eliteforum - I find this very questionable
Isotoxin December 1st, 2006, 02:31 AM

Doesn't this seem very similar to the sort of thing we are against? Duplication of effort at the least - selling information that you didn't create at most.
In my haste I commited an error.
Eliteforum posts on SMDB plugging his website
Adding insult to stealing he makes yet another hive in a manner so similar to the guy that ran synthetihkal
A quote from his site:
"
Due to the site being so new, we have not yet got our book section online, but below is a small sample list of what we will have in stock. Once we are at full capacity, we will
have over 1,000 books either for download, or for sale.
Below is a small list of the kind of books we will be hosting and selling. The list shows just a small sample of the kind of books we will be carrying, and the full list that we hope
to implement soon is in excess of 1,000!
Blowguns, The Breath of Death
Expedient Breaking and Entering
The Black Book Companion
The Blasters Training Manual
The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives
IRA Explosives Manual
Granddads Wonderful Book of Chemistry

[yet more in the list]
"
I wonder where he got those from and intends to sell?
Defendu December 1st, 2006, 02:42 AM

"This forum is password protected. To view this forum you need to enter the correct password below."
I believe a copy and paste job would be appropriate here.
EDIT:
I wonder where he got those from and intends to sell?
I don't know but he's going to need a good lawyer when the publishers of those files sue his ass.
http://anonym.to/?http://www.criminally-inclined.com/forum/
Is it time for an invasion? (don't forget to use a junk email)
nbk2000 December 1st, 2006, 09:26 AM

In that short list of titles are 9 books that I scanned! I'm sure that all mention of their origin has been removed. :mad:
As long as the dingdong doesn't sell them, and gives credit for their origin, then it's OK for him to host the files, as that was the intended purpose...to spread the information far
and wide.
However, I think we can rest assured that this isn't going to be the case, as he has demonstrated in the past an eagerness to try to cash in on other peoples efforts.
ShadowMyGeekSpace December 1st, 2006, 10:33 AM

Who feels like having a nice little phone conversation with him?
NAS ~ # whois -H criminally-inclined.com
Whois Server Version 2.0
Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.
Domain Name: CRIMINALLY-INCLINED.COM

Registrar: TUCOWS INC.
Whois Server: whois.opensrs.net
Referral URL: http://domainhelp.tucows.com
Name Server: NS2.MAINNAMESERVER.COM
Name Server: NS.MAINNAMESERVER.COM
Status: ACTIVE
EPP Status: ok
Updated Date: 10-Nov-2006
Creation Date: 09-Nov-2006
Expiration Date: 09-Nov-2007
>>> Last update of whois database: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:32:08 EST <<<
Registrant:
Criminally Inclined
25 Oak Tree Crescent
Nottinghamshire, Nottinghamshire NG19 8HW
GB
Domain name: CRIMINALLY-INCLINED.COM
Administrative Contact:
Inclined, Criminally admin@criminally-inclined.com
GB
+44.1623456742
Technical Contact:
Inclined, Criminally admin@criminally-inclined.com
GB
+44.1623456742
Registration Service Provider:

PIPEX Communications Uk Ltd, services@123-reg.co.uk
+44.115-917-0000
http://www.123-reg.co.uk/
This company may be contacted for domain login/passwords,
DNS/Nameserver changes, and general domain support questions.
Registrar of Record: TUCOWS, INC.

Record last updated on 10-Nov-2006.
Record expires on 09-Nov-2007.
Record created on 09-Nov-2006.
Domain servers in listed order:

NS2.MAINNAMESERVER.COM 82.110.105.3
NS.MAINNAMESERVER.COM 82.110.105.2
Domain status: ok
NAS ~ #
Gerbil December 1st, 2006, 11:05 AM

A quick google search shows that this guy's also a painter and decorator :p .
If he's actually selling these texts, I guess that someone could tip off the publishing companies in question...
megalomania December 1st, 2006, 07:34 PM

You bitch about him plugging his website over there and what the *&^% did you just do here? A fool and his money are soon parted, and you would be foolish to pay for
something he stole when it can be had for free with a little bit of searching. Such is the nature of the Internet my friends, there is no shortage of websites trying to sell you air
:)
nbk2000 December 1st, 2006, 11:28 PM

Aren't such books illegal for people in the UK to possess? Something about being 'terrorist' manuals or somesuch? ;)
Isotoxin December 1st, 2006, 11:55 PM

I thought I was supposed to be an ant coming back to the nest or something like that. And how else to prove that what he is doing besides linking?
ShadowMyGeekSpace December 2nd, 2006, 12:40 AM

He's gotta accept payment somehow.
Defendu December 2nd, 2006, 07:35 AM

Bad rep for a posy u made in whimsy
I'm not a even member of Sciencemadness. In fact, my quote, "This forum is password protected" was from SM's "whimsy" forum.
Could this guy be Eliteforum trying to hex me?
Also, I see that we have a new member "CriminallyInclined"* (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/member.php?u=24703). Coincidence?
nbk2000 December 2nd, 2006, 10:12 AM

He gave his birthdate as October 14th, 1980.
Signup IP was 82.15.5.68
Gerbil December 2nd, 2006, 12:54 PM

Aren't such books illegal for people in the UK to possess?
Not on their own...I *think* . But that won't stop you being locked up without trial and charged with your car numberplate being 2cm out of place :rolleyes: .
I think there would be some kind of law against selling them, though.
ShadowMyGeekSpace December 2nd, 2006, 01:21 PM

Well, that resolves to cpc5-mfld1-0-0-cust323.nott.cable.ntl.com (nott asin Nottinghamshire), making me think that address up there is probably real. If he does try to sell
stuff, just include the date/time of signup(in GMT) and the IP in an email to abuse@ntl.com. They'll take care of the rest I'm sure, since UK has those nice(by nice I mean bad)
data retention laws and stuff.
In any case, there's a 'lesson to be learned': don't try to profit off of other peoples work, jackass.
nbk2000 December 2nd, 2006, 07:37 PM

It's inevitable that he'll have chemicals in his house, even if it's completely harmless stuff like aspirin and drain cleaner.
Combined with the books...BOMBZ!! :D
megalomania December 2nd, 2006, 10:05 PM

I'll tell Capt. Jack at Torchwood...
Meawoppl December 2nd, 2006, 10:28 PM

Here is his nearest switch, and the persons attached:
This is the RIPE Whois query server #1.

% The objects are in RPSL format.
%
% Note: the default output of the RIPE Whois server
% is changed. Your tools may need to be adjusted. See
% http://www.ripe.net/db/news/abuse-proposal-20050331.html
% for more details.
%
% Rights restricted by copyright.
% See http://www.ripe.net/db/copyright.html
% Note: This output has been filtered.

% To receive output for a database update, use the "-B" flag.
% Information related to 'AS5089-MNT'
mntner: AS5089-MNT
descr: ntl Telecommunications
descr: ntl House, Bartley Wood Business Park
descr: Hook, Hampshire, RG27 9UP
descr: United Kingdom
admin-c: NNMC1-RIPE
tech-c: BP1066-RIPE
tech-c: MH22007-RIPE
tech-c: EE1705-RIPE
tech-c: NR731-RIPE
tech-c: CW1083-RIPE
tech-c: KI288-RIPE
tech-c: DA2033-RIPE
tech-c: JG2660-RIPE
remarks: -------------------------------------------------------
remarks: For abuse notifications please -
remarks: file an online case @ http://www.ntlworld.com/netreport
remarks: +44 1633 710142 (Voicemail Only)
remarks: -------------------------------------------------------
remarks: For peering issues/requests please -
remarks: email : peering@ntli.net
remarks: -------------------------------------------------------
auth: MD5-PW $1$ZrD2VtQK$EQyX8XYkf8ZaC/vJCcH0m0
mnt-by: AS5089-MNT
referral-by: RIPE-DBM-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered
role: NTLI Network Management Centre

address: NTL Internet
address: Crawley Court
address: Winchester
address: Hampshire
address: SO21 2QA
remarks: -------------------------------------------------------
remarks: For abuse notifications please -
remarks: file an online case @ http://www.ntlworld.com/netreport
remarks: +44 1633 710142 (Voicemail Only)
remarks: -------------------------------------------------------
remarks: For peering issues/requests please -
remarks: email : peering@ntli.net
remarks: -------------------------------------------------------
admin-c: MH22007-RIPE
admin-c: NR731-RIPE
admin-c: CW1083-RIPE
tech-c: MH22007-RIPE
tech-c: CW1083-RIPE
admin-c: NR731-RIPE
nic-hdl: NNMC1-RIPE
mnt-by: AS5089-MNT
e-mail: planninginformation.management@ntl.com
person: Bob Procter

address: NTL
address: NTL House
address: Dunleavy Drive
address: Cardiff
address: CF11 0WW
phone: +44 29 2030 5978
e-mail: bob.procter@ntl.com
nic-hdl: BP1066-RIPE
mnt-by: AS5089-MNT
person: Mark Hands

address: NTL
address: NTL House
address: Bartley Wood Business Park
address: Hook
address: Hampshire
address: RG27 9UP
phone: +44
nic-hdl: MH22007-RIPE
mnt-by: AS5089-MNT
person: Edward Elliott

address: NTL
address: NTL House
address: Hook
address: Hampshire
address: RG27 9UP
phone: +44
nic-hdl: EE1705-RIPE
mnt-by: AS5089-MNT
person: Nick Ross

address: NTL
address: NTL House
address: Hook
address: Hampshire
address: RG27 9UP
phone: +44 1256 754992
nic-hdl: NR731-RIPE
mnt-by: AS5089-MNT
person: Caroline Worsfold

address: NTL
address: NTL House
address: Hook
address: Hampshire
address: RG27 9UP
phone: +44
nic-hdl: CW1083-RIPE
person: Ken Ideh

address: NTL
address: NTL House
address: Hook
address: RG27 9UP
phone: +44 01256 752 015
nic-hdl: KI288-RIPE
mnt-by: AS5089-MNT
person: Dotun Akinkuolie

address: NTL
address: NTL House
address: Hook
address: RG27 9UP
phone: +44 01256 754 706
nic-hdl: DA2033-RIPE
mnt-by: AS5089-MNT
person: Jonathan Gist

address: NTL
address: NTL Cardiff Office
address: Unit 2
address: Vanguard Way
address: Cardiff
address: CF24 5PG
phone: +44 02920305411
nic-hdl: JG2660-RIPE
mnt-by: AS5089-MNT

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Does Zaib atsu yet live?
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Dawg D e c e m ber 2nd, 2006, 04:06 AM

Hello-
Haven't been on here for close to 2 m onths but tonite just stumbled across a fam iliar nam e f r o m o l d p o s t s h e r e -
http://digg.com /users/zaibatsu/profile
Is this our old friend/m oderator?
Defendu D e c e m ber 2nd, 2006, 07:28 AM

Is this our old friend/m oderator?
I s D e n v e r s o m ewhere in England? :rolleyes:
Also, zaibatsu last po sted here November 19, 2006.
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 2nd, 2006, 10:07 AM

I've asked him (zai) about this before, having seen his name being used in other forums. He's always denied that it was him.
c.Tech D e c e m ber 3rd, 2006, 08:19 AM

W here did he go for the last 2 years? He seemed to just vanish.
But what s a b i g g e r q u e s t i o n i s w h a t h a p p e n e d t o a l l t h e o t h e r m oderato rs who were always around the forum ?
Jacks Complete D e c e m ber 3rd, 2006, 07:57 PM

I d o u b t Z i s f o o l i s h e n o u g h t o u s e h i s s i g n a m e elsewhere. I know I never do, but there are plenty of people using the sam e
nam e as me on other forums.
knowledgehungry D e c e m ber 3rd, 2006, 08:18 PM

I " v a n i s h e d " f r o m R o g u e s c i f o r a while, and even now that I have returned I do not have the sam e level of activity as I once
did. Sim ple things like having a job, going to school and getting a girlfriend are rem arkably effective at curtailing
e x p e r i m entation when com bin ed.
S o m e t i m e s p e o p l e l o s e i n t e r e st in these things, or decide that there are more im portant things that they do not want to risk by
bein g involved in an "illegal activity". There are m any reasons to leave this hobby, it can be very d angerous as well as tim e
consuming.
About Zaibatsu, I talked with him recently and he mentioned wanting to become active on the forum a g a i n .
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 3rd, 2006, 09:28 PM

School, relationships, financal or legal problems, changing interests...all of these can m a k e a p e r s o n l e a v e .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > New user with some questions
on getting files
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View Full Version : New user with some questions on getting files
tibberous D e c e m ber 2nd, 2006, 07:47 AM

I recently stumbled on this bo a r d a n d w a s h o p i n g t o a d d s o m e b o o k s t o m y c o l l e c t i o n , b u t a m f i n d i n g t h e r a p i d s h a r e l i n k s
dead and the ftp server down.
I tried to con nect to it at 204.210.178.212:990, using implicit ssl as described in one of the posts. I received the message:
"A connection attempt failed because the connected party did not properly respon d after a period of tim e, or established
connection failed"
I then tried to ping the ip to a t least verify the existence of a server, also nothing (yes I know it wouldn't *have* to respond to
ping to exist)
Is the ftp server currently running? I m ay try PM'ing individual m embers for books as soon as I inventory everything I want,
but I'd hate to bother anyone if it is just a m atter of waiting for the ftp server.
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 2nd, 2006, 10:25 AM

I recently stumbled on this bo a r d a n d w a s h o p i n g t o a d d s o m e b o o k s t o m y c o l l e c t i o n . . .
Yet gave absolutely no thought towards contributing to the very resource he hoped to exploit.
And now, having stum bled upon the information-swollen tit that is the R S FTP, he attem pted to suckle upon it, only to find that
it doesn't give up the m i l k o n d e m a n d , a n d i s n o w m e w l i n g f o r a h e l p i n g h a n d t o s q u e e z e it out fo r him .
Can you tell how m any different ways he fucked up with just this one sentence? :rolleyes:
But wait! The re's m ore!
I m ay try PM'ing individual m embers for books as soon as I inventory everything I want...
Oh, well, we'll be glad to hand serve you anything your little heart desires, Oh Lord and Master of the Realm!
:mad:
tibberous D e c e m ber 4th, 2006, 06:29 AM

As long and unhelpful as that was, it doesn't change the fact that all I asked was whether the ftp server was up or down. I
wouldn't call downloading from an ftp server 'exploiting' it.
+++++++++++
Since a defin ition is o bviously required:
verb e x p l o i t e d , e x p l o i t i n g
1 . T o t a k e u n f a i r a d v a n t a g e o f s o m e t h i n g o r s o m e o n e s o a s t o a c h i e v e o n e ' s o w n a i m s.
T h e s a u r u s : c a p i t a l i z e o n , t a k e a d v a n t a g e o f , m isuse, profit by, use, abuse, m a n i p u l a t e , c a s h i n o n .
NBK
+++++++++++
Since you are asking for m e to contribute som ething, m ind telling m e wh at? My com puter is down after a registry related
incident, but I have a collectio n of stuff myself, so if there is anything you are looking for, I don't m ind uploading. A lot of what
I have is pretty comm on and dated; Festers stuff, hacking & reversing, chem istry, Hive an d R h o d i u m m irrors - also som e
archived foru m posts which m ight be helpful bu t I can't really vouch for.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Guerilla Combat
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View Full Version : Guerilla Combat
The Noid December 4th, 2006, 03:33 AM

Back a f ew years ago I was involved in guerilla fighting more or less out of my own personal safety than other reason. I dont feel it is necessary to name the country I
was in at the time, but I thought Id share my encounter with guerilla combatants since I've been seeing lots of it in the news lately.
To make a long story short there were about forty of us foreigners in country. Most were contractors, medical technicians, and some business folk. Most of us were Aussie,
American, or Israeli with a few German and Swiss (go figure). Fighting broke out between militias and government troops. Fighting got to be pretty nasty, but mostly in the
innards of the town. We all lived on the west end and was away from most of it. All utilities were out so no phone or power. Later in the week the militias forced the
government troops out to the east end, opposite of were my community was located. Pretty soon there was firing and explosions two blocks from me. One of the guys had
gotten word from an embassy that this was a minor dispute and would settle out. We all decided to ride it out.
An Aussie two house down told me that the previous night a couple militiamen tried to break in to his house, but he fired at them and they ran off. Most people, by the way,
kept a small caliber pistol at home for protection. The attempted breaking into of houses became frequent, though no one disturbed me. Later on the same week, at dusk, a
militia group fired on my section of town with light arms and hand grenades.
I had brought with me on during my move to this country fifteen of my military rifles, mostly bolt actions but I did take my US made DSA FN-FAL. These were to provide me
with something to do out in the desert on bored days with my associates. I had between 100-300 rounds of ammo per rifle as most were different calibers. Anyway, I called
my neighbors to see if they had some form of protection. Several didn't so I donated some of my personal arms to them just in case.
The week went on and fight escalated on our end of town since the government troops decided to push on and drive the militias out. I decided by this time that I had to get
out and travel 85 kilometers to my embassy and try to get the hell out of that God forbidden place.
As I was trying to leave, a Toyota with a 12.7 Soviet on back raced down the street emptying an entire box into the sides of buildings. I thought to myself, "Shit, they really
are trying to kill us." By that time several neighbors had already made it over to me with their arms and asked if I was ok. I had with me the FAL with six full magazines. We
were crouched behind my truck when several rounds came whizzing overhead. By that point we didn't have much choice but to return fire, not necessarily to kill but to try to
run them off. After ten minutes of firing the militiamen weren't moving and were still firing at us at a distance of about 100-150 meters. We fired on til we were out of
ammunition. We were forced to retreat to my house for the night. There I supplied what ammunition I could, mostly distributing ammo to the rifles I had given out. It was a
logitstics nightmare.
There were four types of Mausers (two 1891s, 98k, and Gew 88), none of which had interchangeable ammunitions, though two were 8mm (different bore sizes of 8mm). The
three Nagant rifles had plenty of ammo and so did the French Berthiers, but the Berthiers take a special enbloc clip to load the ammo so that presented a problem. I was also
out of .308 and since I didn't anticipate on being in combat, I hadn't purcahsed anymore. The only rifle left on my rack was an M1 Carbine with two fifteen round magazines
and three thirty rounders plus ammunition for each. We kept watch the rest of the night and ended up firing at passing rebels at they drove by firing wildly. The next day firing
ceased and in the street were a couple AKs and a Swedish K submachine gun plus scattered ammo and boxes, evidently that had fallen off passing trucks. We recovered them
and gave the AKs to the guys that had the Berthiers and I traded my M1 for the Swedish K since there was four magazines in a crate for it plus extra 9mm. We also recovered
a box of 7.62 from where the militiamen were when they first fired at us.
We relocated to the farthest house on the block to hold up there. The next two days there was sparatic firing by passing trucks and a couple hand grenades thrown, but we
forced them to move on. We actually disable one truck.
Finally, the government troops made it to where we were. The commander spoke some French so we could half way understand him. He told us that the rebels had pulled to
the outskirts and that everything should be ok. We held up three more days without any problem and finally got word via radio that the "uprising" was over.
Fighting like that takes place everyday and is normal life for many in Africa and the Middle East. I know I couldn't live with all of that again on a daily basis. I'm glad I was
finally relocated out of there and live in a peaceful country. I thought about writing my account in full detail and try to publish it, but I haven't.
Jacks Complete December 4th, 2006, 10:28 AM

That's quite interesting. I can only assume that most of those with you had an idea about how to use a rifle?
The issues you had with different calibres is also interesting. If all the rifles had had the same calibre, then you would possibly have been in much deeper shit. If everyone had
used the same ammo, then during the firefight where your stocks became exhausted, everyone would have run out at the same time, as you would have passed the ammo
from those with many rounds to those with fewer, until everyone was lost. At this point, the attackers would have overwhelmed your group. Also, if you had (say) 5 rifles in
the same calibre, you probably still would have only had 300 or so rounds for all of them, rather than 100-150 for each calibre, which comes to a far higher total.
A bit of low-tech would have been handy. Simple string tripwires with tin cans on them, PIR alarm units, clothes pegs, all increase your perimeter security. (As long as you can
back it up with lethal force)
I think you did well, and your hobby probably saved your life, and the lives of others around you.
The Noid December 7th, 2006, 02:28 PM

Believe it or not, Jacks, several of the men were accustomed to firearms. We were located in Africa so several of the men had gone of safari hunts. While those rifles are
different from military bolt actions, the exposure to rifles in general helped immensely. The others took quite well. The real problem was getting ammunition from stripper clips
into the magazine, especially on the Mauser rifles. Someone who is not used to loading them can have a bit of a time doing so. We would have been in a world of hurt had I
not bought mostly surplus ammo already packed onto stripper clips and sealed in wooden crates.
You, sir, were correct on the ammunition problem. We most definitely could have been in deeper shit. Believe it or not we expended about three-quarters what I had brought.
Add more expended rounds from our automatics we picked up. We also had other ammunition problems with a Dutch Beaumont rifle I had. It fires blackpowder rounds so the
ammunition left large plumes of smoke. We set the user of this rifle to the flank so the smoke wouldn't hinder our vision.
An alarm system would have been novel. The chief reason why we didn't set one up was because we would have actually had to leave my residence to set it up. Since being
under fire from 12.7mm (roughly .50 cal to Americans) heavy guns, not many of us were willing to galavant out into the streets.
I am incredibly glad I am a gun collector. Don't know how many can say their 100 plus year old rifles saved their lives.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Totse rolls over on its k3wls
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View Full Version : Totse rolls over on its k3wls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyeXRF2Dz6s
Watching this video...I just can't tell who I hate more...the totse kewls, or the religious fool they attacked.
Let's just hope one of the k3wls makes up a match stick bomb and kills himself and this asshole all at the same time.
Cindor December 5th, 2006, 03:41 AM

No, no, no !!!
If that happens they are going to ban matches !
Match December 5th, 2006, 12:55 PM

I don't care who it is, but when a forum disrupts dribble like what the guy is preaching, it's always worth the laugh.

I agree. I nearly lost conciousness halfway through. Sadly, though, it was from boredom, rather than the usual laughter I find on YouTube.
I love the way the guy says "And this is all copyright, and action will be taken" as I'm watching it elsewhere...
13579 December 6th, 2006, 07:50 PM

Not everyone on totse is retarded, try leaving SG. The smarter ones are in DIY and BB.
billybobjoe December 6th, 2006, 09:33 PM

I like how he says that totse has "Corporate attorneys." I doubt half the people on the website could even spell that.:D
13579 December 6th, 2006, 10:22 PM

billybobjoe-
Most of the people can spell that, stop trying to go along with everyone else.
I also find it odd that he says that since totse doesn't even have corporate attorneys
festergrump December 6th, 2006, 10:32 PM

"Satan" would have chosen better minions than the dregs found at totse...
tmp December 7th, 2006, 04:13 AM

Why are they fucking around with this guy anyway ? Just more proof that
kewls are more destructive to their own existence than to anybody else.
Gerbil December 7th, 2006, 03:21 PM

Why are they fucking around with this guy anyway ?
Because they're kewl :rolleyes: . He's nuts, in my opinion, but prank calls about people dying of cancer isn't exactly the height of maturity.
atlas#11 December 7th, 2006, 05:56 PM

You were all kids once too...
That being said, they were still quite immature about it. Though I seriously doubt any legal action will come out of it, its just giving the community a bad name.
Hopefully most people won't assosiate the kids at totse with this forum, but I'd much rather be called an immature prankster than a terrorist right now.
sbovisjb1 December 7th, 2006, 06:24 PM

"Satan" would have chosen better minions than the dregs found at totse...
Unfortunately for Satan, he should have realized that moronic twits, running around with faulty bombs is not really going to destroy the world or Christianity for that matter.

Careful there, sbovisjb1.
If you live in a formerly free country (USA, UK, etc.) you will notice that you have a lot fewer freedoms now than before the Berlin wall fell, due mostly to political idiots
banning things and thoughts, due to a bunch of moronic twits with nothing more than box cutters.
Anything can be twisted to the desired end. You just need a big enough lever.

But the presumption that I reside in the UK/US is defunct as I live in Canada. (I don't necessarily agree with homosexuality and drug use, but people can do as they please as
long as they don't make a stink and/or aren't hurting others in the process.)
DONMAN December 10th, 2006, 05:53 PM

This guy is a douche, and totse sucks. I don't even see why this is an issue. I don't think anything will ever be done, legally they don't have a foot to stand on.

I just looked at the Totse website to see how bad they really are, and I must say that I am amazed. Like I'm not too old myself(I saw that some of you said they were young
kids), but still, they are really bad. I saw one thing on there they described, very vividly, putting a cat in a microwave for 5 minutes. I mean, I don't really like cats much, but
still, this was sick. That was one stupid thing I saw there, on top of others that were completely pointless, and it made it sound like it was just some group of kids trying to act
cool. Do I pretty much have it?
Cobalt.45 December 11th, 2006, 03:44 AM

Do I pretty much have it?
You pretty well summed it up.
Kind of like a forum version of "Jackass".
So they've taken to animal torture, huh? Don't know 'bout anyone else, but I would much sooner "do" one of them, than an animal.
Much, much sooner...

they described, very vividly, putting a cat in a microwave for 5 minutes.
Although I haven't seen the thread, I'm going to cry bullshit :p .

If they really do get some kind of moronic pleasure from it, hopefully they'll come face to face with this kind of kitty some day:
http://www.providentliving.com/freebies/images/tiger_angry.jpg

Within the last week I saw on the local news a story of two youths who were caught after cooking a live 3 month old puppy in an oven. They had bound it's feet and baked it
to death. Bragging about it later led police to discover the dead animal right where witnesses who saw the dead puppy said it would be. In the oven.
The talking heads said those two are looking at a life sentence now. That pretty much means they'll be eligible for parole in 7 years where I come from. Not a harsh enough
punishment, IMHO.
If you're going to end an animal's life, do it humanely. I doubt very highly I could torture an animal to death because their acts are instinctual and not premeditated, but these
two punks I could torture, just because of what they've done. Death in an oven would be a just reward for them.
I'd not derive pleasure from killing them in this way but I'd feel that justice had been done at least.
megalomania December 11th, 2006, 04:18 PM

I have always contended that a public forum will eventually only be as good as the lowest common denominator intellect wise. The TOTSE tots attract the absolute bottom of
the barrel. Oh sure, there are likely a few outstanding minds there, but that's only because TOTSE is so easy to find, and they don't know of anything better yet.
The way I see it TOTSE is our human shield. As long as that website is up and running we A) should not fear fedgov persecution and B) have a place for the rejects and kewls
to go besides here.
I thought "corporate attorneys" handled sexual harassment and tax matters?
REPENT! Oh ye of feeble mind and surly disposition. Pranker of phones and wolf criers of cancer. SATAN, I CAST YOU OUT :D
Olib December 13th, 2006, 04:33 PM

My god that was boring!
That was like a 8 minutes and 17 second sleeping pill

Although I haven't seen the thread, I'm going to cry bullshit :p .
If they really do get some kind of moronic pleasure from it, hopefully they'll come face to face with this kind of kitty some day:
I think they might have actually done it. Either that or they have really REALLY good imaginations because they said some things that I would imagine would happen. And there
were a few things that hinted that they enjoyed it. Like they had a list of ways to torture cats, and one of the things was to put it in the microwave to scare it, and if it was
really bad, turn the microwave on for 10 seconds at a time, which wouldnt kill it but seriously hurt it. After you did that a few times, it would eventually die from the radiation
about a week later. And the last thing they said is that if you put the cat in the microwave for like 5 minutes, it will cook, and start to blow up. And like I said, they used some
very descriptive details, so it kinda sounds like they did it.
My god that was boring!
That was like a 8 minutes and 17 second sleeping pill
Yea. And the thing is that people supposedly voluntarily watch that show. There's no way that I could conciously watch that show. I would have to be passed out or tied down
to watch it.
a_bab December 14th, 2006, 06:39 AM

I once saw a document floating on the Internet, of these "anarchy" kind, and it described what would happen to a cat in a microwave oven. That was like at east 5-7 years
ago, and it came from the bbs. I haven't read the tootsie thread (nor do I have the time to waste on there crap), but they might have just copy/pasted the doc I saw.
On the other hand, giving the retardness and the human scum which they are, it is possible that they did it.

I once saw a document floating on the Internet, of these "anarchy" kind, and it described what would happen to a cat in a microwave oven. That was like at east 5-7 years
ago, and it came from the bbs. I haven't read the tootsie thread (nor do I have the time to waste on there crap), but they might have just copy/pasted the doc I saw.
On the other hand, giving the retardness and the human scum which they are, it is possible that they did it.
There is a video floating around the net of some kids burning a cat alive.
Also, putting an animal in a microwave is not uncommon as there have been quite a few incidents of people (espicially kids) trying to dry off their pets (such as a gerbil or
hamster).

This guy is a douche, and totse sucks. I don't even see why this is an issue. I don't think anything will ever be done, legally they don't have a foot to stand on.
Is that comment in relation to me, or with the k3wls?

I got the impression he was calling Father Bohab a douche, not you.
no_fear December 14th, 2006, 07:51 PM

Also, putting an animal in a microwave is not uncommon as there have been quite a few incidents of people (espicially kids) trying to dry off their pets (such as a gerbil or
hamster).
Yea, my aunt did it when she was a kid. I think she put her cat in the microwave after the rain to dry it off, and well, I'll just say it didn't survive.
But it's totally different, these guys actually did it conciously. They knew what they were doing and it seems like they enjoyed it. I doubt my aunt would have described the
story as "after 2 minutes, the bastards eyeballs start popping out. like literally flying out of the cat's head." Now this isn't a direct quote, but it's pretty much what they said.

I know Cat is a white meat animal, just like chicken, though I don't know what it tastes like.

Wow, thats pretty bad. Lol. And how do you know this? I can't say that I've ever seen a cat filet or breaded cat breast...
Charlie Workman December 15th, 2006, 03:16 AM

I had dog burritos some years ago. Not bad, but not worth the extra effort. Iguana's pretty good, though. If I found someone torturing animals, they would experience the thrill
of being kicked to death with a steel toed boot. Better for society overall. I was once young and stupid, but never that stupid. And we were considered the "bad element" of
our neighborhood.
c.Tech December 15th, 2006, 05:45 AM

Kangaroo meat isn't bad, better than any beef steak you could buy IMO.

Feral cats are a problem around here, so I kill 'em and throw their furry bodies into the burn barrel. After seeing one in the burn barrel that wasn't completely burned to ashes, I
took a picture of it, called it 'Iraq Cat' (because it reminded me of this (http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv9n1/iraq.jpg)), and tore it apart to answer the long-
standing question I had of 'Cat - White or Red Meat?'.
:D

That video was shown by www.steakandcheese.com. I downloaded it as a reminder of man's
unnecessary cruelty to animals. It's about 2 years old. As a cat owner,
I'd kill the son-of-a-bitch if I caught him/her doing that shit to my cat !
Back on topic - KEWLS attract unwanted attention - that's why most

people reject them and LEOs love them !

I am totally unmoved by that image of the torched gunner.
If the image was of a pet, I'd be furious. Just maybe enough to turn them into the image of the gunner, given the chance.
Strange how the mind works.

I'd kill the son-of-a-bitch if I caught him/her doing that shit to my cat !
This speaks well of your upbringing, IMHO. Same goes for the others who share a hatred for the torture of animals.
megalomania December 25th, 2006, 08:14 PM

The cat's a pet, the gunner is a stranger. I'd bet you would be singing a different tune if the man was your brother, and the cat was just a stray that sprayed inside your new
car...
Why the obsession with cats anyway. Dogs are dangerous ugly creatures that I imagine would be quite tasty.

Stray dogs are perhaps more difficult to catch and more dangerous to handle, thus not of interest to budding suburban psychopaths. :)
Cobalt.45 December 26th, 2006, 10:18 AM

The cat's a pet, the gunner is a stranger. I'd bet you would be singing a different tune if the man was your brother, and the cat was just a stray that sprayed inside your new
car...
I can see you've never met my brother...

Well, I had an exciting night hunt for feral cat as my christmas present.
Totally unplanned, but opportunity presented itself, and I bagged a 20 pound tom. :)

I found a whole website with pictures of dead Iraquis. It shows everything from charred to headless, to 1 chick who stepped on a land mine. So that 1 picture that was
mentioned here is really nothing compared to what I've seen. But um... referring to what mega said about the gunner being a stranger, or a brother. One thing is that you
aren't fighting them. You don't have them killing your "brothers" on the battlefield. If you were in Iraq right now, that picture of the gunner would almost be pleasing because it
is 1 less threat to you and the lives of the people you have come to love on the battlefield. And I guess I kinda agree with the feral cat thing. I don't know if I would care too
badly if it wasn't anyones' cat and if it was really pissing me off, but if it wasn't a stray, I wouldn't do anything to it.

Feral anything are a problem.
As are species introduced from outside of a particular ecosystem.
Florida has walking catfish, for Christ's sake.
Oz is ate up with cane toads.

The world's staggering under the load of shit smelling, choat breath feral humans.:mad:
You could have started the day you were old enough to shoot a gun, hunting down and killing invading species and ferals, and never put so much as a dent in their population.
Culling the ones that you can see to kill, makes the gene pool stronger of those that remain.:p
Jacks Complete January 1st, 2007, 10:41 PM

That's evolution for you. But, since we aren't brain-dead Creationists, we can use that in our favour.
In the UK, town foxes are big, bright-eyed and bright red. Go out to the countryside where we take them down with rifles at night under a lamp, and you will find that where
the pressures are highest, they have dim eyes, and are darker brown. They are also generally smaller.
If you kill off the "fittest" (for whatever you choose as a purpose) you can guide it how you want it. You can be the unspoken god in the creationist world.
Pick a trait, and start killing. The Arabs do it with intelligent thought (the first killed tends to be the moderates and liberals at the places of higher education) and it seems to
work for them!
nbk2000 January 2nd, 2007, 06:02 PM

I know this selection pressure works, since it's in action in my immediate area in all the wildlife I kill. :)
Only the most skittish, stealthiest, quietest animals have survived to reproduce, since I've long since killed off all the noisy, brave, and flashy birds/cats/rabbits/squirrels/
skunks/possums/dogs/etc...:D
megalomania January 3rd, 2007, 06:18 AM

And mexicans, hobos, hookers... :D I jest of course.
reamio January 4th, 2007, 10:51 AM

NBK: just make sure your next victim isn't Schrdinger's cat; quantum physics will never be the same if you kill it.
And good hunting!:D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Another Step Towa rds
Totalitarianism
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knowledgehungry D e c e m ber 5th, 2006, 04:38 PM

First smoking bans and now this
http://news.yahoo.com /s/ap/20061205/ap_on_he_me/diet_trans_fat_ban_23
Soon they will outlaw cars for "public health". This is absurd.
mike16 D e c e m ber 5th, 2006, 06:19 PM

In m y opinion, outlawing cars or restricting their use would be a good thing here in the UK, there are too many people here
thus too m any cars.
I was standing at a junction earlier today waiting to cross, and as every 2 or so ca rs went by I got a whiff of NO2 in my face, its
strange how since I've been doing this "hobby" I can always sm ell NO 2 as a car goes by ( I cycle everywhere).
I've never been able to smell it before , and I expect all of the lazy sheeple can't smell it either.
Bert D e c e m ber 5th, 2006, 09:11 PM

As h u m a n b e i n g s a r e t h e m ost dangerous things in New York C ity, I dem and they be outlawed IMMEDIATELEY!
Seriously, if you gotta live in NYC the air pollution and the stress are going to kill you faster than crappy food.
c.Tech D e c e m ber 5th, 2006, 09:54 PM

At least outlawing trans fat wont be used to put m ore control on the citizens of NY . Though as the definition of terrorist in the
US patriot act is, an act which endange rs human life and is a violation of any federal or state law, if you were to sell trans fat
contain products you could be e x e c u t e d : m a d : T H I S I S N O T A JOKE! Check for y o u r s e l f i f y o u d o n t already know.
tmp D e c e m ber 6th, 2006, 08:40 AM

R u s h L i m baugh once predicted that a tax m i g h t b e p l a c e d a g a i n st high fat
f o o d s . B u t a n a c t u a l b a n ? I i m a g i n e R ush is going to have a fie ld day
with this one on his show ! Another exam ple of governm ent idiocy intruding
into our lives. No wonder most thinking people despise liberals ! NYC's
m ayor is truly a RINO - R epublican In Nam e O nly !
crosseout D e c e m ber 6th, 2006, 12:34 PM

people should know how to eat healthy anyway...theres just no excuse...about the smoking, I think its a good thing to ban
s m o king inside bars and such...
Nihilist D e c e m ber 6th, 2006, 02:11 PM

B a n n i n g h i g h f a t f o o d s i s l i k e b a n n i n g d r u g s . C an they harm your health? Yea, but who the fuck are you to tell me I can't harm
m yself?
Gerbil D e c e m ber 6th, 2006, 07:25 PM

If people were in a truly free society (which they're not, obviously), they would be free to take drug s and eat crappy food. 'Tis
your own problem when you O D or have a heart attack.
I can see the logic behind banning certain adverts on kids tv, though...although people have a habit of using this as an
excuse for bad parenting.

T h e p r o b l e m with trans fats is they do n t h a v e t o p u t them o n t h e n u tritional c o n t e n t l a b e l ( a t least in Australia) and t h e y a r e
the worst for your heart, worse than saturated fats.
If th ey ban trans fats you can still eat fatty food with all the saturated, polyunsaturated and m onounsaturated fats you want
but it will just elim inate the worst one for your heart.
Skean Dhu D e c e m ber 6th, 2006, 09:16 PM

W ell with the developem ents in the past 8 m onths or so , you 'd b e h a r d p r e s s e d t o f i n d a f o o d i n a s u p e r m a r k e t i n t h e U S
that had trans fats in them these days, with m ost stuff having that silly little splash icon on them bragging about " 0g trans
fats" . Most food com p a n i e s h ave elim inated them from their product to get people to buy them . The article says it only bans
'artificial tran s fats' , basically they're banning the use of certain fry oils.
How about a ban on fat people taking the elevator? Sure trans fats are b ad for you but so is sitting on your ass all day but still
eating a +20 00 calorie diet.
As long as this stuff stays at the state an local level the y can ban whatever the hell they want, its when the UN and the
governments of the entire countries ban these things that it starts getting truly to talitarian.
The reason for making drugs illegal and now trans fats, isn't for your health, its for their coffers, the longer you live the m ore
m oney they can milk you for. Even if they(the powers that be) created a way to tax illegal drugs they wouldn't.
kenneo D e c e m ber 6th, 2006, 09:39 PM
about the sm oking, I think its a good thing to ban smoking inside bars and such...
Drinking, smoking, fighting, drug use.... These are activities bars are designed to facilitate. If you object to any of these
activities, "DON'T GO TO THE FUCKIN BAR".
G o d f o r b i d y o u s u c k u p s o m e second hand while you're trying to destroy your liver or catch a good case of syphilis from the
regular bar whore who's looking better by the m inute.
W hile we're at it lets ban titties from the tittie bar, they cause high blood pressure ya know.
Nihilist D e c e m ber 7th, 2006, 03:07 AM

Yep...if the U.S. belie ved any of its own propag a n d a a b o u t f r e e d o m a n d c a p i t a l i s m , then they would have let the "free m arket"
create non-sm o k i n g b a r s , b e c a u s e t h e d e m and would o bviously be high right? Bu t no, people don't want to m a k e t o u g h
decisions like that for themselves, they don't want to be socially pressured into going to the sm o k i n g b a r b e c a u s e t h e y k n o w
they couldn't resist, so they m a k e t h e g o v e r n m ent force everyone to do it. I'm too weak to resist trans fats, let's ban them for
everyone. I'm too stupid to use drugs, let's ban them for everyone. Gov. always caters to the lowest com m o n
d e n o m inator...that practically defines dem ocracy right there...
Jacks Complete D e c e m ber 9th, 2006, 04:29 PM

The problem with letting people do what they want is that it is incom patable with the welfare state.
I see people who are just whinging soap-dodgers a lot in m y job , and the refrain is always the sam e. It is never
"The council gave me a new house for free, that's so great! Can I paint the inside to make it nicer?"
Oh no. The exact opposite.
"The council painted m y house last week (for free, again, after they burn e d s o m e t h i n g a n d g o t s m o k e d a m a g e ) a n d t h e p u k e
colour I choo se isn't the right shade!"
" T h e y s a i d I ' d h a v e a new kitchen by Christm as, where is it?"
"I want a new front door. The old one got broken (when I kicked it in drunk the other day)"
"They still haven't re-levelled m y kitchen floor (from when I flooded it an d wrecke d the underlay) so I'm writing to the paper!
See how they like tha t!"
I see people so fat they cannot walk to the door, let alone work (not that they would, even if it was 50K a year for wanking),
so they are given health-related benefits, they get stairlifts and rem o t e d o o r s a n d f r e e b u s p a s s e s a n d t h o se little powered
wheelchairs!
I m ean, powered whe el chairs? When they are too fat to walk?
T h e y s h o u l d n a i l t h e d o o r s s h u t , a n d l e a v e t h e m a 2 foot gap to get out of, and then just leave them for 6 m onths.
T h e r e s h o u l d a l s o b e a l a w a g ainst fat people having free electric wheelchairs. W h a t d o e s a n y o n e c a p a b l e o f t h i n k i n g t h i n k i s

goin g t o h a p p e n w h e n s o m e o n e w h o e ats enough that they can't walk to the supermarket for fags or beer runs out of food?
They would *have* to diet. And hell, they aren't going to starve to death. No way. They have at least 2 months of b lubber on
them.
S a m e for soap dodgers who won't get a job. Make them work for the m oney. Doesn't matter what the job is, just anything.
Polish the statue in the park, pick up litter, vaccuum s o m e o l d d e a r s h o u se, whatever.
Back hundreds of years ago, they built follies, big stone buildings that m eant nothing at all. The lords and ladies paid for
them, and they got the people who would otherwise have starved or lost the skills they wanted to keep to other areas, busy.
T h i s m eant that they didn't turn into entitlem ent bitches, and they weren't free to walk the streets drunk, fighting and breaking
into cars and h o u s e s .
So yes, ban trans-fats from those who cannot afford m edical cover. Ban "ciggarettes n alchol" and more, until they get off their
arse s a n d d o s o m ething with their lives. Put the money for keep ing them happy into that instead, and cause them s o m e pain,
just enough to get them working, or at least keeping the place tidy...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Research chemicals
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I'm hoping this isn't against the rules...and I don't *think* that it is, given that suppliers are discussed in regards to other substances fairly openly here, but i'm w ondering if any
of you have had any experience ordering "research chemicals"(designer drugs) online, and if so, can you recommend any good places?
I know a lot of them are scams, but I think i've found tw o that seem reputable:
w w w.bravo-trading.com
w w w.hcl-research.com
I placed an order from bravo just a few minutes ago, so i'll let you all know how that turns out w hen/if it arrives.
EDIT: Also, I w ould like to say that I would have asked this on a site more geared towards this kind of discussion, but most of them have a very strict no-supplier-discussion
policy. But since these substances are technically legal(in most countries) and suppliers of other semi-legal substances are discussed elsewhere on this forum, I thought it w ould
probably be ok to ask here.

It's coming from Hong Kong, so it's not like it's a DEA sting operation. :)
Though coming through customs...:eek:
Everything on there is a drug precursor.

If you don't mind me asking, what other sites are geared tow ards RC's and the like?

If you don't mind me asking, what other sites are geared tow ards RC's and the like?
Most drug forums have an RC section...drugs-forum, wetdreams, lycaeum, etc..
@NBK: Drug precursors? Oh no, most of those things are actual drugs in and of themselves. They're all from Shulgin's books. 2C-E/2C-I are supposed to be similar to E and LSD
at the same time, with 2C-E being a lot heavier and 2C-I being more of a party drug.
thermobaric December 5th, 2006, 11:18 PM

http://ww w.soundwaveabduction.com/oz-international.html
Found this aw hile ago,but it looks a bit sketchy.

from 5g: $320 per gram
Oh...so we're supposed to send US$1,500 to a communist country on the off chance that they'll actually send the drug analog to a capitalist country, and not just keep it and
laugh at the stupidity of the imperialist running dogs?

Depending on which country you are in, 5-MeO-DMT is still legally available from Sigma-Aldrich at good prices.http://ww w.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search/ProductDetail/
SIGMA/M2381

On the subject of online drug purchases, I was considering buying some generic modafinil from this guy: http://shop.airsealed.com/pd_india.cfm
I'm fairly skeptical of internet meds, but he does have some good reviews on a couple of forums.

I have sent my money to bravo-trading, and they did respond w ith a tracking number that seems to be valid, so my hopes are high at the moment. I also received a price
quote from www.hartark.com on 2C-I. They sell it for $187/g. And according to them, they also carry:
Now we have DIPT,DPT,5-MEO-DIPT,5-MEO-DALT,5-MEO-DPT,2C-C,2C-N,2C-B,2C-I,2C-E in stock.
After December 15 we will supply AMT,DMT,DOC,DOB,DOI,DOM,and next plan to produce 5-MEO-DMT,MIPT,5-MEO-DET,2C-D,2C-P,2C-T,2C-T-2,2C-T-7.
They seem pretty legit too, though I haven't ordered from them yet.

How on earth are these people getting aw ay with it?
I know that all those drugs are illegal in the US, and the DEA has its claws into pretty much every country in world, via Uncle Sams checkbook.
I have to assume it's either a sting or being monitored by customs to bust the recipients.
It's probably also not a good idea to post what you've ordered, and from where, as well as w hen, on a public board.

I would be very careful ordering RC's nowadays. After the DEA launched Operation Web Tryp in 2004 to take out the main suppliers it became quite risky to order them, as the
site could very well be a sting. Also, I highly doubt any website would openly sell Schedule 1 chemicals like DMT.

How on earth are these people getting aw ay with it?
I know that all those drugs are illegal in the US, and the DEA has its claws into pretty much every country in world, via Uncle Sams checkbook.
I have to assume it's either a sting or being monitored by customs to bust the recipients.
It's probably also not a good idea to post what you've ordered, and from where, as well as w hen, on a public board.
5 of them are schedule I, dmt, 2c-b, dom, dob, and 2c-t-7. The rest are unscheduled AFAIK. And the U.S. might have broad influence, but China is one place that is still
relatively out of our hands.
It's theoretically possible to prosecute someone under the Federal Analog Act for these substances, however it must be proven that they were intended for human consumption,
and the burden of proof for that is on the U.S. government. And I also don't think it's possible to prosecute someone for purchasing an analog-drug, only for selling it, so i'm
fairly confident that the worst that can happen to me is confiscation.
I would be very careful ordering RC's nowadays. After the DEA launched Operation Web Tryp in 2004 to take out the main suppliers it became quite risky to order them, as the
site could very well be a sting. Also, I highly doubt any website would openly sell Schedule 1 chemicals like DMT.
Operation web tryp targetted only U.S. based RC suppliers, and it also did not target any of the people who purchased RCs.

Well, let us know anyw ays if you get it successfully and it actual w orks (not just sugar).
Oh, and I'd give a dose to a rat first, just in case the stuff isn't a drug, but poison.

Ok, the substances have arrived today. They did go through customs, and they came sealed in 3 layers of envelopes with a plastic vaccum sealed bag inside. Inside the vaccum
sealed bag were 3 little baggies, containing the 3 different substances I ordered.
I haven't w eighed them yet, and I haven't bioassayed them yet...but things are looking pretty good.

Ok, the substances have arrived today. They did go through customs, and they came sealed in 3 layers of envelopes with a plastic vaccum sealed bag inside. Inside the vaccum
sealed bag were 3 little baggies, containing the 3 different substances I ordered.
I haven't w eighed them yet, and I haven't bioassayed them yet...but things are looking pretty good.
Which substances did you order and what country do you live in. (No, I'm not a cop.) :p

Which substances did you order and what country do you live in. (No, I'm not a cop.) :p
200mg 2C-I
100mg 2C-E
100mg 4-HO-DIPT
And I live in california.

100mg 4-HO-DIPT
And I live in california.
Wasn t 4-HO-D IPT recently scheduled in Americ a?

Wasn t 4-HO-D IPT recently scheduled in Americ a?
According to Erow id, no.
http://ww w.erow id.org/chemicals/4_ho_dipt/4_ho_dipt_law.shtml
Most of these chems haven't yet been scheduled...but i've heard that the DEA is looking at them for scheduling. I assume if it's going to happen, it'll probably happen at the
beginning of this year :(. So, once i'm sure i've got good stuff, I think i'm gonna be making some bigger orders.
ShadowMyGeekSpace December 11th, 2006, 04:24 PM

http://ww w.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/notices/2006/fr0804.htm
[Federal Register: August 4, 2006 (Volume 71, Number 150)]
[Notices]
[Page 44314-44315]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr04au06-97]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
Drug Enforcement Administration
[Docket No. DEA-273N]
Solicitation of Information on the Use of Tryptamine-Related

Compounds
AGENCY: Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), Justice.
ACTION: Notice of request for information.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
SUMMARY: The DEA is soliciting information on substances that are

related in chemical structure to tryptamine (see SUPPLEMENTARY
INFORMATION). The Controlled Substances Act (CSA), in Title 21 of the
United States Code (U.S.C. 812 Schedule I (Title 21 of the Code of
Federal Regulations (CFR 1308.11(d)), lists certain tryptamines as
Schedule I controlled substances. Some tryptamines that are not
controlled under the CSA produce central nervous system effects that
are similar to tryptamines that are controlled under the CSA. DEA is
requesting information to help determine the impact on business if
these substances were to be placed under control in the CSA.
DATES: Written comments must be postmarked, and electronic comments

must be sent, on or before October 3, 2006.
ADDRESSES: To ensure proper handling of comments, please reference

``Docket No. DEA-273N'' on all w ritten and electronic correspondence.
Written comments being sent via regular mail should be sent to the
Deputy Assistant Administrator, Office of Diversion Control, Drug
Enforcement Administration, Washington, DC 20537, Attention: DEA
Federal Register Representative/ODL. Written comments sent via express
mail should be sent to DEA Headquarters, Attention: DEA Federal
Register Representative/ODL, 2401 Jefferson-Davis Highway, Alexandria,
VA 22301. Comments may be directly sent to DEA electronically by
sending an electronic message to dea.diversion.policy@usdoj.gov.
Comments may also be sent electronically through http://ww w.regulations.gov
using the electronic comment form provided on that
site. An electronic copy of this document is also available at the
http://ww w.regulations.gov Web site. DEA will accept attachments to
electronic comments in Microsoft Word, WordPerfect, Adobe PDF, or Excel
file formats only. DEA will not accept any file format other than those
specifically listed here.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Christine A. Sannerud, Ph.D., Chief,

Drug and Chemical Evaluation Section, Office of Diversion Control, Drug
Enforcement Administration, Washington, DC 20537; Telephone: (202) 307-
7183.
SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: Tryptamine is a compound in which the

chemical structure can be described as indole substituted at the three
position with an 2-aminoethyl chain. Although tryptamine itself is not
a controlled substance, its chemical structure constitutes the skeletal
makeup of tryptamines listed in Schedule I of the CSA, which are
classified as hallucinogenic substances.
Tryptamine is sometimes substituted on the indole ring or the 2-
aminoethyl chain or both with various substituents. Title 21 CFR
1308.11(d) lists specific substituted tryptamines in Schedule I. Also
included in Schedule I are the salts, isomers, and salts of isomers of
the listed tryptamines. The term isomer, as used in this section, means
the optical, geometric, and positional isomers.
Individuals have published detailed methods of synthesis for
substituted tryptamines and have reported pharmacological effects based
on user experiences. Law enforcement personnel encounter such
tryptamines, but because they are substituted differently than those
listed or described in the CSA, they are not subject to direct control
in Schedule I. How ever, some of these substances can be treated as
Schedule I controlled substance analogues if intended for human
consumption (21 U.S.C. 802(32); Sec. 813).
DEA is soliciting information on (1) The commercial uses for
tryptamines, (2) activities involving research and development, (3)
tryptamines as intermediates or analytical standards, (4) import and
domestic sources for tryptamines, and (5) any planned or anticipated
uses for tryptamines. DEA invites interested persons to provide any
information on the uses of tryptamines in industry, academia, research
and development, or other applications. Both quantitative and
qualitative information is sought.
Although information is requested for all tryptamine substances
regardless of substitutions, DEA is particularly interested in
tryptamines that meet one
[[Page 44315]]
or more of the following conditions: (a) Has a secondary or tertiary

amine formed by the substitution on the nitrogen atom of the 2-
aminoethyl chain by various alkyl groups, whether in chain or ring form
(for example, N-alkyltryptamine, N,N-dialkyltryptamine, N,N-
tetramethylenetryptamine), (B) has an alkyl substitution on the alpha
position of the 2-aminoethyl chain, and/or has substituents on the
indole ring system, including, but not restricted to, various alkyl
chains, halogens, hydroxyl, alkoxy, acetyl, or alkylthio groups, at one
or more positions except the one (indole nitrogen) position. DEA is
especially interested in learning of the uses of the following
tryptamines.
2-alpha-dimethyltryptamine
4-hydroxy-N,N-diisopropyltryptamine
4-hydroxy-N,N-dipropyltryptamine
4-hydroxy-N,N-tetramethylenetryptamine
4-hydroxy-N-isopropyl-N-methyltryptamine
4-hydroxy-N-methyl-N-propyltryptamine
5,6-dimethoxy-N-isopropyl-N-methyltryptamine
5-methoxy-alpha,N-dimethyltryptamine
5-methoxy-alpha-methyltryptamine
5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyl-2-methyltryptamine
5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine
5-methoxy-N,N-tetramethylenetryptamine
5-methoxy-N-methyltryptamine
6-methoxy-1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline
7-methoxy-1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline
9,10-didehydro-6-allyl-N,N-diethylergoline-8-beta-carboxamide
9,10-didehydro-6-propyl-N,N-diethylergoline-8-beta-carboxamide
9,10-didehydro-N,N,6-triethylergoline-8-beta-carboxamide
alpha,N-dimethyltryptamine
N,N-dibutyltryptamine
N,N-dibutyl-4-hydroxytryptamine
N,N-diethyl-2-methyltryptamine
4-hydroxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine
N,N-diethyl-5-methoxytryptamine
N,N-diisopropyl-4,5-methylenedioxytryptamine
N,N-diisopropyl-5,6-methylenedioxytryptamine
N,N-diisopropyltryptamine
N,N-dimethyl-2-methyltryptamine
N,N-dimethyl-4,5-methylenedioxytryptamine
N,N-dimethyl-4-hydroxytryptamine
N,N-dimethyl-5,6-methylenedioxytryptamine
N,N-dimethyl-5-methylthiotryptamine
N,N-dipropyltryptamine
N,N-tetramethylenetryptamine
N-butyl-N-methyltryptamine
N-ethyl-4-hydroxy-N-methyltryptamine
N-ethyl-N-isopropyltryptamine
N-ethyltryptamine
4-methoxy-N-methyl-N-isopropyltryptamine
5-methoxy-N-methyl-N-isopropyltryptamine
N-isopropyl-N-methyl-5,6-methylenedioxytryptamine
N-isopropyl-N-methyltryptamine
N-methyltryptamine
4-acetoxy-N-methyl-N-isopropyltryptamine
4-acetoxy-N,N-diisopropyltryptamine
4-acetoxy-N,N-dipropyltryptamine
4-acetoxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine
5-methoxy-N,N-diallyltryptamine
5-methoxy-N-monoallyltryptamine
5-methoxy-N-methyl-N-isopropyltryptamin
N-methyl-N-isopropyltryptamine
4-hydroxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine
5-methoxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine
Such information may be submitted to the Drug and Chemical

Evaluation Section and is requested by October 3, 2006. Information
designated as confidential or proprietary will be treated accordingly.
Confidential business information is protected from disclosure under
Exemption 4 of the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. 552(B)(4)(FOIA)
and the Department of Justice procedures set forth in 28 CFR 16.8.
Dated: July 28, 2006.

Joseph T. Rannazzisi,
Deputy Assistant Administrator, Office of Diversion Control.
[FR Doc. E6-12599 Filed 8-3-06; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 4410-09-P
edit:
PS: That means they're looking into scheduling it.

They filed it on August 3rd of this year, which means nothing will happen in '07, as it takes them at least a year to do all the paperw ork and committee bullshit, but they could
have it approved and scheduled by January '08.
So, if the stuff you bought was good, and you've got the money, buy as much as you can because they WILL be closing the loophole eventually. :(
Or learn how to make your ow n. :)
Olib December 12th, 2006, 03:30 PM

I hope one day this "War on drugs" and all this government propaganda that drugs are "bad" is going to stop.These are entirely my decisions and as long as I dont harm other
people with my recreational drug use,)for example driving a car w hile on 5 grams of psychedelic mushrooms) I should have the right to do any drug I want and not be
oppressed by the government.
pearlcrash911 December 12th, 2006, 09:36 PM

Luckily that list only deals with tryptamines and doesn't mention phenethylamines. The loophole will still be open for at least two more years.
I plan on making an order tonight on bravo for the following:
100mg 2C-I
100mg 2C-E
100mg 2-CT-2
100mg 4-HO-DIPT
100mg 5-MEO-DET
Hopefully the order will only take four days to ship as it did for Nihilist.

I'm guessing the loophole will stay open unless the suppliers start advertising on Google again,or the media reports a bunch of overdoses like with 2C-T-7 a couple of years ago.
digitalangel January 7th, 2007, 09:12 AM

guys/gals
w w w.undrug.org
and click vendor database
aw some site for checking the credability of an sites that you suspect could be dubious

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > A possible security breach
notification!...
Log in
View Full Version : A possible security breach notification!...
akinrog D e c e m ber 5th, 2006, 06:45 PM

A few mom e n t s a g o , m y norton antivirus packa g e ( a p p a r e n t l y c o m p l e t i n g a n u p d a t e ) g a v e a n a l e r t o n W inRar software I had
d o w n l o a d e d s o l o n g t i m e a g o f r o m w h e r e I d o n ' t r e m e m ber (m o s t p r o b a b l y P 2 P n e t w o r k s ) a n d I ' v e b e e n u s i n g f o r s o l o n g
tim e that it contains a worm called W32.Fujacks.A.
It m ight be a false alarm but I just want to warn other mem bers of this situtation. If you have downloaded a file called
"wrar330.exe" which is installe r of WinRAR, please be careful with it!...
Anybody using this application (which had been probably downloaded from P2P networks together with a crack therefor) must
be careful and check his/her com puter for virii.
Better careful than so rry. Regards.
FUTI D e c e m ber 6th, 2006, 02:01 PM

Thanks akinrog for fast notification and I hope it is benign problem. I had similar problem last year and notify the forum
through a m e m ber whose e-m ail I have. I had problem logging at the tim e and feared is it som e kind of k eylogger (it wasn't
but as you said better safe than sorry) so I didn't wish to comprom ise forum's safety. IIRC it was posted in forum m atters
section and not water cooler like this one. Does forum has a policy on that? Mega , NBK do you have some advice?
Maybe e-mail adress (or pannel) where we could send a request to temporary disable our account untill further notice with
partial report from AV program attache d t o i t w o u l d b e a g o o d i d e a . M a y b e e v e n M e g a c a n u s e f o r u m software to put the
acco u n t n a m e / p a s s u nder scrutiny at our reque s t a n d s e n d u s a l o g i n / l o g o f f t i m e s a n d I P n u m b e r s t o o u r e - m a i l s o w e c a n
c o m p a r e i t a n d s a y i s t h e r e s o m e t h i n g fishy go ing on. What would be the best thing to do if we tra ce that ID theft (besides
p a y i n g s o m e o n e 5 0 $ t o b r a e k t h e k n u ckles of the guy who stoll our password so he can't type for a while - hm, that would be
interesting m e m b e r s h i p f e e : D ) ? W e c a n c h a n g e t h e p a ss maybe, but so the theif can before us at that m o m ent using user
CP. Should we then send e-mail to Mega to set us a new password and send it to us throu g h e - m a il? How would Mega knew
who is who?...Now I'm going in circles. :). Sm all problem = b i g h e a d a c h e .
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 6th, 2006, 02:38 PM

W e n e v e r d e l e t e a m e m bers account, only disa ble it, so you can always come back.
A n d m e m bers can't edit or delete their own posts past a short tim e , s o n o o n e s p osts can 'vanish'.
Now, an im poster could take over your account, if you were careless enough to loss your account, but what could the y do with
it? P ost k3wL form u l a s ?
OK, 'you' get banned. Sign up for a ne w account.
You could bo ther an adm in with an e-mail and plead innocence, and we m ight look to see if the IP 's are different, but likely
not.
T o o m a n y t i m e s w e ' v e h a d p e ople plead 'hacker/little brother used m y account' a s an excuse for stupidity that they later
regretted.
It's on YOU to secure your account against sabotage an d hijacking, not ours.
Also, where's your PGP key? How could you prove that you were a certain mem b e r a n d n o t a n i m poster without it?
Staff is far m ore para noid about any irregularities in our com puters because our accounts can fuck up the whole board, not just
ourselves.
I just had a little incident where it looked like o ne of m y external HDD's got infected with ransom ware (had only one file listed
called 'dead letter box' wi-fi m usic in russia.htm l), and so I im mediately notified staff and took other precautions.
Turns out (so far) to have just been a problem with m y firewire controller, but I'm still investigating it to be sure.
W e don't need to be notified everytim e a m e m ber gets a virus, as we'd be running a seperate forum section just for that, as
c o m m o n a s I ' m sure it is.
Exceptions would be any files downloaded from the FTP, or linked to here on The Forum , such as the rapidshares, o r a posted
website running m alicious scripts.
T h e s e c o u l d b e c o n s i d e r e d a s a t a r g e t e d a t t a c k a g a i n s t u s , i n a n a t t e m p t to gain privilege escalation.
This is what staff needs to be IMMEDIATELY notified about, but not by public posting, as that could warn the attacke r that
they've been discovered.
Better is to n otify admins by private message, with a lin k t o t h e o f f e n d i n g p o s t .
O r , i f o n t h e F T P , t h e n a m e o f t h e f i l e o n t h e F T P a n d a PM to TMP, since he's the one running the FTP, as well as RS adm in s.

and we m ight look to see if th e IP's are different, but likely not.
T h a t l e a d s m e t o a q u e s t i o n a b o u t s o m ething that worries m e , I P ' s .
If th e forum was to be taken down by lets say som e government agency, would they be able to ga in access to our IP's and
t i p o f f o t h e r c o u n t r i e s g o v e r n m ents ? I'm s p e a k i n g a b o u t o n t h e p e a k o f the new world o r d e r t h a t d o e s n t l o o k p r e t t y f or the
forum ites if 'they' have out IP's.
ShadowMyGeekSpace D e c e m ber 6th, 2006, 10:31 PM
They would have access to the IPs, yes.
rayman D e c e m ber 6th, 2006, 10:55 PM

If th e forum was to be taken down by lets say som e government agency, would they be able to ga in access to our IP's and tip
off other countries go vernm ents? .
Sim ple answer .... YES ....
T h e f o r u m a d m in will not even know that they are being logged by there provider, heck I am sure that there is an American
agency loging this post within minutes of its posting, Th ey are so anal about watching over every o ne's shoulder and with the
content of this forum , But that is neather here nor there as long as you keep your experiments just that EXPER IMENTS
I think at this point in tim e yo u are allowed to learn, you are allowed to experime nt with chem icals, As long as you do not
repeat a successful experim ent severa l times knowing that the resulting reaction creates any cheam ical on your countrys
banned/restricted chem list, But I Am only speaking for the country I reside in, Your laws m ay be diffrent
Poin ts to think about
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 7th, 2006, 02:48 AM

T h e g o v e r n m ents tap s run at a higher level than your local ISP.
Big Brother h as specialized routers con nected d irectly to the TELCO's backbones, m onitoring essentially 100% of all IP traffic
in/out of the continential US, and something like 10% or more of the interstate traffic.
So your ISP is irrelevant, and your IP is already had, so you're fucked if They want you.
So you either operate under the assum ption that you're watched and they're coming for you, in which case you don't even visit
this site.
O r , y o u a s s u m e they're too busy with bigger fish, and operate under the level of Federal interest, m eaning your APAN banger
doesn't exist as far as BB is concerned , unless you're stupid enough to set it off in a gove rnm ent building.

Yep...you can bet the y m onitor everything that goes through this site, PM's includ ed. But even if you were planning to rob a
bank, I doubt they would bother with you because the k ind of intelligence gathering they're doing isn't exactly legal. It's just
not worth it for them to use it against anyone other than terrorists or spies, even big-time "norm al" crim e s a r e p r o b a b l y c a u g h t
regularly and go unre ported by the Echelon guys.
c.Tech D e c e m ber 7th, 2006, 08:55 AM

O r , y o u a s s u m e they're too busy with bigger fish, and operate under the level of Federal interest, m eaning your APAN banger
doesn't exist as far as BB is concerned , unless you're stupid enough to set it off in a gove rnm ent building.
After they ha ve caught the bigger fish I assum e they will be com ing for the smaller ones, especially if that sm aller one was
t a l k i n g a b o u t g o v e r n m ents and inform ational possible terrorist attacks which could occur.
Eliminate all that pose the slightest threat so you can have your perfect little utopia... W ITH SLAVES!!! :m ad: But I guess its
necessary to protect us from evil terrorists as they do ;) :rolleyes:

There will always be bigger fish, But what they will do ( IMHO ) is pass along the chem info to the people th at like to ban every
thing ..........
Alwa ys rem e m ber tha t any one here can be "the m an" . It can be any on e, New m e m ber or old, If you dont think th ey are here
t h e n y o u a r e u n d e r e s t i m a t i n g y o u r e n e m y, Assum e they read th is board, Not trying to scare anyon e off from posting anything,
But lets get real here, The lon g e r y o u h a v e b e e n h e r e t h e m o r e t h a t y o u h a v e l e f t b e h i n d f o r t h e m to find
I for one can cross ch eck several forum boards in a day to find out what a single person has said, I did this not long ago to
find the answer to a question that I ha d about a process, If I can do this anyone can
Jacks Complete D e c e m ber 9th, 2006, 05:03 PM

This is why we keep personal info out of posts, we don't sign up with real nam es, and we don't arrange "m eet-ups", etc.
Y e s , t h e C I A a n d o t h e r s a r e c h o m ping at the bit to get the currently illegal search es and wiretaps they do a ll day every day
m ade legal, so they can expand the powers they have, get a bigger budget, and eventually take over the world, but currently,
they aren't able to. People are slowly realising the governm ent is playing a s h e l l g a m e that we, the people cannot win.
Yes, you can be hit for incredibly petty things, and hit hard. They love it! It's what gets them wet. Sending you down for 2 years
or life for being a tit with an AP charge, or a terrorist with an IED is what gets them a b o n u s .
The danger is that they will catch you bang to rights, stuff in you r hands. Beyond that, the danger is m arginal.
Sausagemit D e c e m ber 11th, 2006, 01:42 AM

The only harm full thing Norton ever found on m y com puter was the key generator I used to crack Norton's autoupdate feature.
It called it a "Maliciou s Hack T ool" :D.
If anybody really wanted to find out who I was It really wouldn't be too hard. The problem of acctually doing som eth ing
m alacious to m e or m y com puter would acctually be very hard. I keep a very tight watch on all the processes that are currently
running on m y com puters and other th i n g s g o i n g o n a r o u n d m e . I m a very suspicious person and I notice almost everything.
I'm the guy who will go to a m ovie and say "the stupid bitch only m oved the shift lever down 2 notches wich would have put her
in neutral rather than drive. God damn I hate autom atics."
Seriously tho ugh, anybody could find out who I am and where I live in under an h our just using the internet. I just don't give
people the incentive to track me down and do some harm.
megalomania D e c e m ber 11th, 2006, 05:57 PM

Lets not fall under th e a s s u m ption that everything here is illega l, and that everyone is breaking the law. Reading about this
stuff is perfectly benign, and basic chem ical experim entation is also lega l (offer void in Kalifornia and Texa ss). Certain
despotic nations worried about a coup m ight forbid the evil Internet, but the English speaking world isnt that far alo ng (yet). If
you are up to no good, well you should be worried.
Nihilist D e c e m ber 11th, 2006, 06:56 PM

All it takes is 1 0day exploit and a rootkit to nail even the most security conscious com puter user. Being vigilant will protect you
from the script kiddies, worm s, viruses, etc..that infest the everyday internet, but when som eone with m o n e y a n d p o w e r ( e . g .
fedgov) wants you, they've go t you.
Crypto can help, but cryptogra p h y i s o n l y a s s e c u r e a s t h e p a s s p h r a s e u s e d t o e n crypt it. If you ha ve all your HD's encrypted
with a 10 billion bit long key, and the best pass phrase ever...but you ha ve to type the thing in every tim e you boot up, all
they've gotta do is intercept your keystrokes fo r a few d ays befo re servin g their warrant to seize your drives.
IMO, the best way to deal with this stuff is to keep your shit as secure as you can...but ultimately, always have an e x p l a n a t i o n
at the ready in the event anything on your com puter should be discovere d, and if you have content on their that could get you
in trouble that there is no excuse for h aving, seriously consider getting rid of it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Weird coming from the USA
Log in
View Full Version : Weird coming from the USA
rayman December 6th, 2006, 11:12 PM

Now you dont see this every day in the States
" residents of Cherry Tree, Pennsylvania, would be asked to own guns and know how to use them. "
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061206/us_nm/usa_guns_dc
Cant use trans-fats in Ny but in PA a small town may soon be asking the residents to buy/own guns and learn how to use them
Interesting country that US of A
DMSOnMyVeins December 7th, 2006, 05:46 AM

There are a couple in Georgia and a few in the western US. IMO this should be nationwide. The right to keep and bear arms is being raped by the ignorant as we speak. The
gun control idiots lie their bums off to control the sheeple. If I had the resources I would move to one of these communities ASAP.:)

Festergrump has posted on this very subject (mandatory gun ownership), I don't recall what thread it was in, though.
IIRC, the crime rate was very, very low in this town.

I'd thought I'd posted about it more than twice but here's all I could find that I had posted before. The town I'm aware of is called Kennesaw and it is a suburb north of Atlanta,
Georgia.
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=82904#post82904
I was a little outdated on my checking up on the open carry laws, though, it seems. Georgia is NOT an open carry state anymore according to packing.org (updated as of Sep
20, 2006):
http://www.packing.org/state/georgia/#stateno_ccw
You can open carry a handgun/pistol/revolver without a permit:

(open manner and fully exposed to view means for all to see, you need to have more than just the grip in view)
* In the home you own/rent/lease or place of business you own/rent/lease

* while legally hunting or fishing with a valid hunting or fishing license(license not needed for persons not required by law to have hunting licenses) on their person and with the
permission of the owner of the land
* while sport shooting when the persons have the permission of the owner of the land on which the activities are being conducted
My apologies for providing misinformation. There ARE many states in the USA which allow open carry, but Georgia is no longer one of them. :(
It is truly a great thing that certain towns, counties, ect. are taking notice of dwindling rights and trying to do something about it. But federal law will always take precedence
over local law, so in effect, if the federal government ever makes owning a gun illegal... who cares what the locals say on the matter. (unless, of course, push comes to shove
comes to BANG! "Fuck you and your federal law"...)
Truth is, from a legal standpoint... all it boils down to is: Will you be tried for a "Gun Ownership" crime in a state court or a federal court?
I highly recommend taking a look at your state's laws and voting only for the politicians who aren't so eager to disarm their population. They pretty much ALL want you
unarmed [EDIT: on a state or federal level. Obviously there are those on a local level who still hold value in our RKBA], but some less so than others...
P.S. Pencil in Tom Selleck (sp?) on the next presidential ballot! :) Now there's a "straight-shooter" (truthful pun) we can trust!
rayman December 7th, 2006, 06:41 PM

I was coming from the point of
The USA is disarming there population and taking away the peoples right to bear arms and freedom to eat trans-fat amoungst many many other removes of freedoms in the
last 5-10 years, yet a SMALL town ( pop 400 ?) WANTS EVERY ONE TO OWN / KNOW HOW TO USE firearms
Just wierd ....
Mind you I think that every one should own/carry a visable hand gun at all times, personal defence is MY responsibility not some cop that is sitting in the local coffee shop or
hurassing the hookers for a free f**k or what have you, So I am all for it, I hope that the bi-law gets voted in

I got side-tracked trying to ammend my previous statements about open carry in Georgia. Sorry. I didn't mean to hijack your thread at all. :o I get a little carried away
sometimes, but since the opportunity was there to correct myself...

Indeed. It only takes one shithead running the country for everything to be turned upside down. Just look at Iraq and the UK.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C onverting certain airsoft
m a k e / m odel guns to fire one or more fatal pro jectiles
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clandestiner D e c e m ber 10th, 2006, 05:26 AM

I have a KW A ' h e a v y f r a m e ' G 1 9 ( m o d els a Glock 19) which I ne ver use, but I got it out today as I was going to purchase a
h a n d g u n s o m e t i m e soon and was inve stigating certain things about gripping related to pistols...
during the course of this, I for som e r e a s o n d e c i d e d t o t a k e o f f t h e s l i d e . T h e r e m o v a b l e p a r t s f r o m the side are a spring, a n d
two 'barrels', an inner and an outer. The inner is a much thinner metal that fits inside the outer.
As a quick dim e n s i o n , I d r o p p ed in a 7.62x39 shell into the barrel to gauge it's diameter, and the round fit halfway down its
casing but still let light through (I don't think the outer barrel is rounded in a true circle...)
I have no interest in convertin g this airsoft pistol (at this time, a nyway), but was insanely curious a s t o i f t h i s h a d b e e n d o n e
with any airsofts. They specifically design them (an of course sin ce they're releasing, in this gun's case, gas) so that they can't
be used to fire bullets...at sale time, anyway.
The barrel, o f course, is nonrifled. There's a ha m m er, though. :p
Perhaps with significantly redu ced but still useful loads, the pressure would not be too m uch? Given a need, is there any way
that fixing up an airsoft gun into a true firearm would be quicker or easier than im p l e m e n t i n g a f i r e a r m f r o m ground up?
I a m hoping there is som e previous literature around.
ShadowMyGeekSpace D e c e m ber 10th, 2006, 06:30 PM

I a m hoping there is som e previous literature around.In other words, you haven't done yo ur own research on google or even
here on this forum, but hope there are previous posts here, and you want us to spoon feed you URLs to them ?
clandestiner D e c e m ber 10th, 2006, 10:12 PM

In other words, you haven't done your own research on google o r even here on this forum, but hope there are previous posts
here, and you want us to spoon feed you URLs to them?
In light of yo ur courageous effort to cu t down any collab orative function, I instead offer the following:
A first of a series of posts on a thread related to the subject, as titled, with what I have as m y o w n m e a n s , i n h o p e s s o m e o n e
else around has the same question, where we can share inform ation for the purpose of enlightm ent of all parties.
I've searched this form where people post on n on-W ate r-Cooler boards about 'm aking airsoft plastic BBs hurt 10fps m ore with
m y own explosive m ix' and on Google where people don't like to talk about conversions any more than 'you can't do it'.
Searching is a nevere nding effort, not som e t h i n g o n e d o e s o n c e , and I continue m y search for this informa tion.
Anyway, I wanted to post this before, but m y posts are m oderated: I'll get som e pictures up soon.

He gets a we eks vacation to think about his m anners. :)

I for one would like to see your work after your vacation , but I will tell you the basic's of this have been talked abou t, Unless
your going to get som e pictures and what have you its useless, Have a g ood vacation hop e you com e back with som e
interesting stuff to take this conversation further

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > BTNEC experiences?
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Zajcek D e c e m ber 10th, 2006, 07:05 PM

Since triphosgene is in crystalline form it should be safer than phosgene, which is gas at room tem perature .
W i k i p e d i a a n d s o m e other sources says that triphosgen e is substitute for phosgene.
Som e advantages of triphosgene for m e:

I can buy it
It is in crysta lline form so it is a bit safer to handle
I do not have to prep a r e p h o s g e n e
I d o n o t h a v e t o u s e s p e c i a l e quipm e n t f o r p h o s g e n e p r o d u c t i o n
I do not need to cool phosgene below 8*C
T r i p h o s g e n e c o u l d b e added directly to pressure reactor
Triphosgene can be weighted in exact am ounts
Triphosgene can be stored m uch safer than phosgene
The only two disadvantages are that I do not know if it will work and that it is quite expensive. 100 g of this stuff costs about
270.
I would really like to m a k e s o m e BTNEC , becau se I think it is a very interesting substance.
I f a n y o n e h a s any ex perience and knowledge about it, please share it ;)

Download a copy of The W ar Gases, by Mario Sartori (scanned by yours truely :)) and try one of the processes listed there for
m aking triphosgene yourself.
Or, if you can understand germ a n , m a y b e t h e U l t r a P o i s o n s P D F i n t h e R a p i d s h a r e L i n k s t h r e a d .
Report back with resu lts.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C leaning m y lab but have little
tim e to m a k e g o o d c h e m s d i s a p e a r
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ultma D e c e m ber 11th, 2006, 10:24 PM

I a m a n d c l e a n i n g a n d cataloguing m y lab for health and safety purposes at the m oment it has years worth of accumulated
l a b c h e m s . T his is m y last chance to m ake certain item s d i s a p p e a r b e f o r e a n y o n e e l s e k n ows about them
I would ask a questio n but m y tim e is short

So here is a list of ex citing chem icals, if any of them are USELESS could please inform me
And if you were in m y shoes p oint m e in the direction of som e exciting things I could do n ot to excoriating though (m a y b e
s o m e sort of flash po wder)
potassium persulfate purity? Orbeco dont have the m s d s a n y m ore cat num ber r-3926
nitrate powder rt-124

64% zinc 32% barium sulfate
http://www.orbeco.com/Pdf/R T - 1 2 4 . p d f
hach sulfide inhibitor

10-20% basic cupric carbonate
8 0 - 9 0 % s o d i u m nitrate
http://app.hach.com / p d f _ s t o r a g e / 3 9 4 2 4 3 . p d f
zinc powder
zinc powder activated with copper
Mercuric thiocyanate 0.23% soln in 99" m e t h a n o l
hach ferric ion soln <10% percholric acid
Karl Fischer solution B
Titia nium tetra cholride
potassium io date
silver nitrate
silver sulphate
sodium azide
potassium dichromate
Urea
Antim ony 98.5%
cadmium coarse powder
H e x a m ine
30% hydrogen peroxide
m ercuric sulfate
m ercuric chlo ride
0.5M iodine volum etric soln
IGEMA Fluid (Ethylene dibrom ide and perchlorethylene)

Titanium tetrachloride for m a k i n g i n s t a n t s m o k escreens. :)
Bert D e c e m ber 11th, 2006, 11:52 PM

If you have all these chem icals accrued over years- W hy do you need to ask what they can be used for?! Or are you about to
clean out SOMEONE ELSE'S lab ?

It's the end of the college school year, so go figure. ;)
ultma D e c e m ber 12th, 2006, 02:22 AM

no its the start of a new processing season I have been in the the lab for only three seasons
I m ainly test waste and rendering products
the com pany has had new lab staff almost every year
they horde everything from old therm ometers, hydrom eters to b roken stills and photom ultiplyer tu b e s
I h a v e h e a p s o f o l d e x p i r e d c h e m s I can take a pic if you like rusty tins benzene with what looks like beer caps on top
I g a v e m o s t h a r m less stuff away(to a high school) when I first started as I was shocked at the amount of surplus chems, an d
h a d t o l o o k l i k e I w a s d o i n g s o m ething about it.
m y tim e is short.
ShadowMyGeekSpace D e c e m ber 12th, 2006, 04:23 AM

Yeah, but his question and the list of chemicals m akes it incredibly clear that he's not a chem istry student. If he was a
chemistry student or was well read he'd know the safety precautions for azides, and thus the use o f what he has.
ultma D e c e m ber 12th, 2006, 04:59 AM

I know azides are explosive.
T h e y a r e t h e e x p l o s i v e u s e d t o i n f l a t e a i r b a g s ( s o d i u m a z i d e m o r e s t a b l e t h a n l e a d a n d s o m e of the othe r metal azides).
I u s e t h e a z i d e i n t h e l a b i n a n a z i d e i o d i d e m odifier for a water treatment test

its a shit of a thing to m a k e u p 500g of NaOH in 1L of d.H20 with about 100 or so gram s o f s o d i u m i o d i d e
I just though t there m i g h t b e s o m e sweet com bo in there for som e sort of interesting powder. I am not interested in anything
too dangerous just some light hearted fun
I c h o o s e t h e s e t h i n g s i n p a r t i c u l a r a s t h e y s e e m e d t o b e t h e m ost reactive and flam m a b l e f o r s o m e sort of nice flash

powder, a f ew others I wasn t s u r e about so I included in the list.
I c o u l d h a v e m e n t i o n e d I h a v e b e n z e n e , p h e n o l , % 6 5 n i t r i c a c i d , conc H2SO4, toluene, xylene(I think, som e idiot in the past

put in one of those clear bottles with blue lids and labelled it xylene with a m arke r), glacial acetic acid (this stuff gives the
m ost annoying burns skin feel very tight),form ic acid, selenium , a b s e t h a n o l , 9 6 % e t h a n o l, m ethanol, propan-2-ol, petroleu m
spirit 40-60C BP, glycerol, octanol, HFl etc.
E t c b u t I d o n t want to hurt m yself or anyone or los e m y job.
I can give yo u a number of ch e m i c a l s t e s t s t h a t u s e s o m e of these reagents if you would like, could m ake a nice cover for you
guys
Eg a m m onia nitrogen : p h e n a t e m e t h o d u s e s p h e n o l , S o d i u m n i t r o p r u s s i d e , s o d i u m h y p o c h o l r i t e , a b s e t h a n o l a n d s o m e o t h er
stuff.
I d o n t h a v e m u c h e x p l o s i v e c h e m i s t r y k n o w l e d g e y e t , a n d t h o s e o f y o u that a r e h o b b y c h e m i s t s I c o m m e n d y o u r k n o w l e d g e
and interest in the su bject
I a m mainly an analytical food chem ist in m y job but studied chem istry, pharmacology and toxicology
m y routine tests inclu d e m oisture, fat, protein via TKN, ash for m e a t a n d b o n e m e a l , b o n e d u s t a n d d r i e d b l o o d ( j u s t m o i s t u r e
and protein), FFA, FAC and bleach on tallow, COD, BO D, TKN, NH3-N,total solids, total suspended and disso lved solids, oil and
grease, floatable fat, total reactive phosphorou s on waste water
This is not m y personal lab but m y work place:D
festergrump D e c e m ber 12th, 2006, 05:29 AM

Yeah, but his question and the list of chemicals m akes it incredibly clear that he's not a chem istry student.
I'll go out on a limb here and wager he's no English major, either.
m y tim e is short.
Agreed.

I'll go out on a limb here and wager he's no English major, either.
Agreed.
I d o s p e a k E n g l i s h b u t y e s m y spelling and gra m m ar are poor a spell checker is far smarter than I
I didnt what to ask any questions but I do have little tim e
I d o h a v e s o m e books on the subject, but if yo u c o u l d g i v e m e t h e n a m e s o f s o m e really good ones that would be nice as
well.
How dangero us is sodium azide if I hit a sm all crystal with a ham m e r w o u l d i t m a k e a n o i s e ?
Sorry for being a newbie but in time I could be of value.
I h a v e s o m e g o o d h a r d t e x t s o n t o x i c o l o g y ( c a s s r e t & D o u l l ? ) , I a l s o h a v e t h e m erck index but thats up fo r download,

G o o d m ans and Gillm ans pha rm acological basics of the rapeutics, Advanced organic chem istry

Yeah, but his question and the list of chemicals m akes it incredibly clear that he's not a chem istry student. If he was a
chemistry student or was well read he'd know the safety precautions for azides, and thus the use o f what he has.
I k n o w a b o u t a z i d e s I h a v e s o d i u m a z i d e i t s n o t t h a t b a d I m a k e it up in a solution for water treatm ent (with NaOH and

N a I ) , y e s t h e y a r e u s e d a s e x p l o s i v e s , in car air bags , a n d f o r p r e s e r v a tive in soln. However there doesn t s e e m t o b e m u c h
m ention of u se of it in a "flashbang" p owder or on its own, I actually have heaps of sodium azide
I d o n t want to ma k e a n y t h i n g t o o d a n g e r o u s a s I h a v e m a n y o t h e r e x p i r e d a n d r o u t i n e c h e m icals I c o u l d h a v e m e n t i o n e d
( P h e n o l , B e n z e n e , H 2 S O 4 c o n c, Fum ing HCl, 65% Nitric acid, Xylene, Toluene, Silver Nitrate, HFl, NH3C l etc.)
I chose the ones on the list in the first post as they are reactive or used in explosives, however there were a few I was
wondering about as well hence the few that are not so h ot
So if you have any interesting ideas th at involve those listed or som e other comm on com p o u n d s d r o p a r e p l y : D
i also have m any sim ple chem ical tests i can tell you about that use m any "usefu l" chem icals as cover if anyone wants. :cool:
Bert D e c e m ber 13th, 2006, 11:18 AM

There is no way to teach you what you want to know in one post. You have weeks, m onths or years of reading to do if you wish
to learn this subject. It will not be good for your longevity to hurry into hands on experim e n t a t i o n . Y o u r p o s t s m a k e i t o b v i o u s
you have essentially no knowledge base at this tim e.
Several books on the subject are available. They are discussed here at length, and are downloadable. SEARCH this site. I
would suggest you start with T enney Davis' C hemistry of Powder and Explosives.
Sodium azide is not a prim ary explosive. The main danger of it is toxicity, compa rable to that of cyanide. You should have no
difficulty finding out about THAT in the references you m e n t i o n h a v i n g .
I, and most others here will ig n o r e y o u u n t i l y o u s h o w e v i d e n c e o f h a v i n g d o n e s o m e m eaningful work towards educating

yourself.

There is no way to teach you what you want to know in one post. You have weeks, m onths or years of reading to do if you wish
to learn this subject. It will not be good for your longevity to hurry into hands on experim e n t a t i o n . Y o u r p o s t s m a k e i t o b v i o u s
you have essentially no knowledge base at this tim e.
Several books on the subject are available. They are discussed here at length, and are downloadable. SEARCH this site. I
would suggest you start with T enney Davis' C hemistry of Powder and Explosives.
Sodium azide is not a prim ary explosive. The main danger of it is toxicity, compa rable to that of cyanide. You should have no
difficulty finding out about THAT in the references you m e n t i o n h a v i n g .
I, and most others here will ig n o r e y o u u n t i l y o u s h o w e v i d e n c e o f h a v i n g d o n e s o m e m eaningful work towards educating

yourself.
But I cant ke ep it all. :(
its just the tim e factor i can hide some in the lab but what would be best.
Cheers for the reference i have been reading what i can it helps being already chem istry e d u c a t e d .
s o d i u m a z i d e . y e s b u t it is a solid so I am not going to be handling it without gloves glasses and a coat.
nothing is without its poision its strictly the dose that de t e r m i n e s t h e p o i s i o n
but yeah some are worse the others paraquat

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > KNO 3 Sm o k e H a z a r d s
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drunkenpanda D e c e m ber 13th, 2006, 12:02 AM

Hey guys.
I was planning on m a k i n g s o m e K N O 3 s m o k e s f o r s o m e airsoft gam e s t h a t I p u t t o g e t h e r , b u t I h e a r d f r o m s o m e o ne that the

s m o ke is carcinogenic. This could be bad for obvious reasons.
I tried lookin g around for this on other threads as well as done some research on m y own, but I have found no definitive
proof. I did read that there was a theory that nitrates could be carcinogenic if used as a preservative, but nothing on potassium
nitrate specifically or using it as sm oke. If any of you guys have heard about it, either yes or no, please let m e k n o w.
DMSOnMyVeins D e c e m ber 13th, 2006, 02:12 PM

KNO3/sugar sm o k e c o m pounds are NO N-Toxic
I repeat NON-Toxic, UTFSE ok??
:mad:
Olib D e c e m ber 13th, 2006, 04:26 PM

Dont worry KNO3/sugar sm o k e c o m pounds give off relatively harm l e s s s m o k e .
But there are a LOT better sm o k e c o m pounds than the standard KNO 3/Sucrose m i x.The m ain problem with them is all the
heat from t h e r e a c t i o n c a u s i n g t h e s m o k e t o d i s p e r s e h igh in the air while m ilitary sm oke devices are relatively cool causing
t h e s m oke to stay a lot longer in lower altitude.
Kind a wandered off topic there but anyway the sm o k e i s h a r m l e s s a n d K N O 3 / s u c r o s e s m o k e m i x e s s h o u l d w o r k O K i n y o u r
airsoft games,just dont stand over the device inhaling.:)
drunkenpanda D e c e m ber 13th, 2006, 11:51 PM

Thanks for being patient. I did search, but didn't see anything:o . I will look into som e cooler ones as well, so thanks Olib.
DMSOnMyVeins D e c e m ber 14th, 2006, 06:36 AM

If you had searched you would find out that Potassium Nitrate/Sugar sm o k e c o m p o u n d s a re non-toxic. The info is here I just
located it by using TFSE. I suggest that you did n't UTFSE. End of story.......... I don't want this to end up as a F/L/H section so
I'm done.........
Alexires D e c e m ber 16th, 2006, 02:51 AM

*cough* R elatively non-toxic.
I know from e x p e r i e n ce that prolonged exposure to KNO3/Sugar sm oke devices will leave you
Light headed
U n a b l e t o b r e a t h e c o m fortably
Inca pable of any exertion (forget running, dodging, shooting, etc.)
W hether this is merely from sm oke inhalation or from the K2O form ing KOH in your lungs, I'm not sure.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W ho's a rat?
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www.whosarat.com
I was watching House on Fox and an ad for Geraldo Rivera's bullshit "scare the sheeple" show came on. However, it mentioned
this site and asked the question "why hasn't it been shut down yet?", because the fuckwit doesn't understand the concept of
civil rights. But, I thought it might be a very interesting resource for more than a few of yo u.

If it wasn't out in the open, where the pigs could see that their a gents were 'blown', then it'd be operated on the dark net, out
of their sight, where only crim inals wou ld have access to it, ensuring only cops and their snitches got killed. :)
Match D e c e m ber 13th, 2006, 02:30 PM

416 agent profiles... Sounds inform ative.

C o n s i d e r i n g h o w m a n y police agents there are in the US, 416 is a drop in the ocean, and that's over the entire US.
Consider how there's over 1 m illion law enforcem ent officers in the US. Unless that 416 wa s all from (say) the NYPD, there's no
way it'd have any real effect.

I guess my sarcasm wasn't ve ry prom inent. Sorry NBK.
sdjsdj D e c e m ber 15th, 2006, 07:03 AM

Doesn't it strike anyone else that this could be a rather clever way of spreading distrust through terrorist or crim i n a l g r o u p s b y
releasing false intelligence? After all, if you wanted to get rid of a terrorist psychopath, what better way of elim i n a t i n g t h e m
than to tell their terro rist buddies they're a fed?

I doubt Al-quaida is subscribing to Who's a Rat.com.
festergrump D e c e m ber 17th, 2006, 04:22 AM

I see sdjsdj's point, though. AND it could be useful to set up an enem y with a nice broad profile there to be tter exact a
reve nge. I know someone whose life would take a very interesting turn if he were to be exposed as a rat...
Cobalt.45 Decem ber 22nd, 2006, 03:03 PM

After all, if you wanted to get rid of a terrorist p sychopath, what better wa y of elim inating them than to tell their terrorist
buddies they're a fed?
An oldie but a goodie .
T h i s p l o y h a s b e e n s u c c e s s f u l l y u s e d i n n u m erable tim es by both sides of the law.
That's how they got Valachi to roll over on hid "friends".
megalomania D e c e m ber 25th, 2006, 06:08 AM

If I am not mistaken was this topic discussed a year or so ago when this website was first created? Maybe it was not the exact
d o m ain, but I rem e m ber something ju st like this.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Am m onium nitrate shelf life?
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Smoakie D e c e m ber 13th, 2006, 10:07 PM

I was wondering if anyone knows what the shelf life of a m m onium nitrate is?
In m y Im provised C-4 book, it says to only use fresh AN. It is getting harder and harder to find AN so I would like to stock
s o m e a s s u m ing it will last awhile.
AN is quite hygroscopic and I have had it mess up m y 'experim ents' because I did not dry it first. After drying it, it seems to
behave the same as a brand new bag.
So I'm wondering if as long as I dry it out before hand, will it last a reasonable am ount of tim e, or will it start breaking down
i n t o a u n u s e a b l e c o m position fairly quickly? If it breaks down, what does it turn into?
Thanks!
sprocket D e c e m ber 14th, 2006, 06:28 AM

P u r e a m m o n ium nitrate can be considered stable at room tem perature. Even at elevated temperatures (up to 100C ) there
won't be any significant decom position. I don't see any problem storing it for several years.
However, tha t is for pure AN. There are several substances that catalyze the decom position. Most notably chlorides, nitrites,
chrom ium a n d m a n g a n e s e c o m pounds. Even with small am ounts of such catalysts present in the AN the de com position will be
rather slow at room tem perature. It is still stable for sto rage.
An interesting observation is that coated AN seem s m o r e s t a b l e t h a n u n c o a t e d . T h a t m e a n s i t ' s b e s t s t o r e d u n p r o c e s s e d .
At low tempe ratures the reactions contributing to a deco mpositio n are m ost likely:
NH4NO 3 <=> NH3 + HNO3
NH4NO 3 --> N2O + 2 H2O
All o f the decomposition products are easily evaporated and will not contam inate your AN. I think what your book su ggests is to
only use freshly processed (dried) porous AN. The age of the actual AN doesn't m atter.
Smoakie D e c e m ber 14th, 2006, 02:31 PM

Thanks sprocket.
That was the kind of info I was looking for.
I m ainly use it for m y exploding targets so a couple bags will last m e quite awhile. Just didnt want to buy it if I'm going to end
up throwing it out in a year.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Paranoia
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DMSOnMyVeins D e c e m ber 14th, 2006, 07:11 AM

I ' v e b e e n t h i n k i n g a b out posting this "post" for about 3 m onth's now. W ell here it is.
It all started when I purchased about $500.00 worth of chemicals and glassware from a com pany called Elem ental Scientific,
LLC. I got my order a bout 3 m onth's a fter placing m y order.... That's when the strange shit started happening. I was changing
m y oil, m y o i l p a n d i s a p p e a r e d , I a s k e d m y GF to help m e look for it, sh e couldn't find it, either could I. My home was
burglarized TWICE.... NOTHING W AS TAKEN..... And there was money on the kitchen counter......
A b o u t 6 m o n th's after receivin g the order from Elemental Scientific, It was about 9PM on a W e d n e s d a y , A b o u t 1 0 t o 2 0 C ounty
Sheriff's were in front of m y house, I h ad about an 1/8th of an acre in a m e t r o a r e a i n t h e U S . O n e d e p u t y k n o c k e d o n m y
door with the "cop knock"..... I answered the door and he said "W e are in pursuit of a subject who ran from us, can we search
your residence?" I said "No, you can not search m y residence without a warrant" He said "I was being polite, If you don't
consent to a search I will detain you and search your residence, since I am in hot pursuit I don't need any warrant to search
your property"
That's when I alm ost shit m yself... He was correct though. Cops don't need a warrant to search a residence when they are in
hot pursuit. I found o ut from m y neighbors that my home was the only h o m e o n m y stree t to be searched that night...
I just want others to know the dirty tricks that cops use.
I don't now or have I ever done anything illegal with chemicals, lab apparatus.. Now I am sure as ever, I won't ever do
anything near illegal with anything lab related. Especially after what has happened.
I will post m ore info about what happened later, there is much m ore that happened that I can relay to you all.

I n s a n e , D o t e l l u s m ore.

W hat type of chemicals did yo u purcha se and in what am o u n t s ?

The list of ch e m s I o r d e r e d i s l o n g , t h e c h e m s a t e l e m ental are cheap so I thought I'd stock up and order a lot.
Glacial acetic acid

Nitric acid
Phosphoric acid
Sulfuric acid
Pthalic anhydride
Stearic acid
Succinic acid
Tartaric acid
Am m o n i u m h y d r o x i d e
Biuret Protein test sol.
Calcium carbide
Diatom aceos earth
Ethyl acetate
Glycerine
Hexachloroethane
Hexane
Hydrogen peroxide 30%
Iodine
Nickel powder
Parafin oil
Petroleum ether
Potassium io dide
Potassium permanganate
Sodium flouride
S o d i u m f o r m ate
Sodium iodide
Zinc sulfide
I also ordere d a 2 n e c k 2 5 0 m L 2 4 / 4 0 r o u n d b o t t o m f l a s k a n d a 3 n e c k 2 5 0 m L 2 4 / 4 0 r o u n d b o t t o m f l a s k a n d a n a l l i h n
condenser.
During the tim e between the order arriving and the illegal search of m y h ome I received at least 5 calls a day from 0 0 0 - 0 0 0 -
0 0 0 a n d 2 2 3 - 7 7 8 - 9 9 6 3 . W hoever this was calle d 7 days a week. The day after the search I receive d no more calls. There is no
area code 223 and th e 000-000-0000 is obviously fake.
I went to see an attorney about sueing the ******* county sherrif's departm ent and he found out that I have a bench warrant
for failing to appear in court on a traffic summ o n s . I p l e d n o t g u ilty and forgot to show up after receiving th e s u m m o n s . I ' v e
b e e n s t o p p e d f o r s p e eding twice since the warrant was issued and the wa rrant never showed up. Maybe warrants are s u s p e n d e d
p e n d i n g a n i n v e s t i g a t i o n ? I m ay have to move out of the county during the lawsu it, for fear of harrasment.
During the search only one cop went in to my home with a dog and the co p went around tapping on everything to get the dog to
sniff everything. There were 3 cops there that had M-4's with the box type scope. Wearing black long sleeve sweatshirts that
say Sheriff on the sleeves in yellow color and tactical vests.
All the cars there were marked patrol cars except 2 white chevy suburbans with very dark tinted windows.
I a l s o s h o u l d a d d t h a t W h e n s p e a k i n g t o m y neighbor down the street she said that a fire truck was parked around the corner
during the search. Maybe for em e r g e n c y d e c o n t a m a n a t i o n p u r p o s e s ?
I m e n t i o n e d t h e o i l p a n b e c a u s e m y theory is that cops watching m y hou s e m ay have played a practical joke, probably from
bein g bored out of their m inds. W ho would steal an oil pan full of used o il and leave behind a toolbox full of SNAP-ON tools.
Snap-on tools are very expensive and have a high resale value.
Cobalt.45 D e c e m ber 15th, 2006, 01:33 PM

W ell, there's your pro blem ! (like dude says on "Myth Busters")
Y o u h a v e t o a d m it- with that list of chemicals and equip ment, you could definitely be up to no good, in the eyes of law
enforcem ent.
Had you been a true terrorist, they'd have brou ght you down- hard.
You might well consid er yourself fortun ate that all 'they' have do ne is violate your rights and steal your "oil pan".
Alexires D e c e m ber 16th, 2006, 03:08 AM

Dude, with half that shit, you were asking to ge t stung.
First thing I thought when I looked at it was "Meth". If I ordered that all at once (or at all) I would be paranoid BEFO RE funny
shit started happening.
I would recomm end reading what NBK has to say on reflective IR devices, hom e d e f e n s e a n d a l s o y o u m i g h t w a n t t o c o n s i d e r
buying a cam era to watch your house when you are out.
T h a t s u c k s d u d e , y o u r freaking m e out now....
blazes816 D e c e m ber 17th, 2006, 11:16 PM

Very weird. I think the money on the counter is the weirdest.

Aside from the iodine and nickel powder, there's not really anything there that's used for m eth.
Now, it could just as easily be that UPS ratted you out, knowing that you are getting delive ries of chem icals to a private
residence.

Nitric acid and sulfuric acid don't look like the standard chemicals for som eone wh o has legal intents IMO .
sparkchaser D e c e m ber 19th, 2006, 02:55 AM

All that stuff com bined with enough glassware to cause trouble, but not q uite enough to start a full hom e lab.....it would look
like a troublesome cause was brewing.
They probably thought your oil pan was full of some noxious chemical (other than oil), or that they could at least find enoug h
traces of one to hem you up for awhile .
calcium carbide+water= acetylene, m aybe that would he lp explain the fire truck. Not to m ention all the other flamm a b l e s .
S o m ebody ratted you out, unless "they" saw a shipment from a chem ical supplier to a private hom e , f o l l o w e d i t h o m e a n d
then searche d that hom e to find out what all was there. All legal under the Patriot Act I believe.
"Gotta make shur thit them durned sneeky terurists arn t a tryin' ta m a k e n o o c u l a r weapuns!"
oregon-machinist D e c e m ber 19th, 2006, 03:08 AM

A while now, simply from the Title of this thread!
I know I have not done anything illegal, yet the feelinin g of Paranoia is there.
I h a v e b e e n t h r o u g h s o m e he avy issues in the last thre e m o n t h s , a n d I t o o k a b r e a k f r o m " m o r e " o f a n y t h i n g e l s e .
T h e n u m b e r s o f C h e m i c a l s t h a t y o u b o u g h t w o u l d s e e m to m e to be a "signal" fo r an order to a re sidence....
I think I would break up such an order to three or four companies?
A n d m a y b e o r d e r t h e l a b e q u i p m ent separate....
But then, I'm a n o l d m an, who moves slow.... I have all m y life! :eek:
augoldminer D e c e m ber 19th, 2006, 06:03 AM

Under the Patriot Act they can enter yo ur house, And plant bugs, Put a key logger on your computer, Look for drugs. All without
telling you.[This may look like a burglary if the cops are not good at it] Also using the cover story of being "in pursuit of a
subject" would m ean that they did not have to tip you off that th ey had a Patriot Act W arrant.
You did the right thing in not giving them perm ission. if they had found somethin g, It might have been thrown out of court if
they did not have a warrant. And if they were working under a Patriot Act W arrant it m ight have still been thrown out. Stranger
thing have happened.
Also you nee d to put a camera system with sound in your house to protect yourself from t h e c o p s a n d t h e c r o o k s .
P l u s k e e p y o ur glassware locked up when you are not using it.

If a meth head found your glassware he would trade it for meth to a m eth cook. All you need is the cops to find a m e t h l a b
with glass wa re with your finge rprints on it. [This happened to a collage p rofessor in Bakersfield Ca lif.]
A few years ago the cops took m y portable wet chem ical gold and silver field assay lab out of my truck. they though t it was a
drug lab.
I never got all of it back, They keep all the che m i c a l s a n d s e n t t h e m t o a h a z m at facility.
But the dum b cops did not know that i could m ake at least three explosives with what was in the la b. They were only looking
for drugs.
If you set up a h o m e l a b g e t a f e w s m all note books and keep lab notes of what you do. This will m ake it hard for the cops to
m a k e y o u l o o k l i k e a d r u g m aker or terrorist. And you will look like a chemist.
simply RED D e c e m ber 19th, 2006, 02:08 PM

Next tim e they will do the sam e thing to you just for ordering books...
Acco rding to the corporations, knowledge should not be available to the normal citizen. Yo u have only perm ission to be voting
s h e e p , d u m b ass buyer, big b rother watcher an d SMS sednder! Through their foundations (for exam ple the Hum boldt
f o u n d a t i o n b e e i n g s p o n s o r e d b y S i e m ens) funding for science is available alm ost only to the friends and the relatives of the
corporation bosses.
Organisations like this are currently do ing econom ical crim e s , f o r e x a m ple non-legal construction building, without a ny
p r o b l e m ...
From Bill Gates to the last corrupted pig that prevents you from buying H2SO 4! This is all part of the sam e g a m e - t h e g a m e
of the global capital feodalism ...
DMSO, I guess, they chewed on your frying pan like a pig - oliy newspaper :D .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > KNO 3 for NH4NO 3 (or NaNO 3)
and K2SO4 ?
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Horrigan D e c e m ber 15th, 2006, 02:02 PM

Hi :)
I was wondering about something, i have both NaNO 3 and NH4NO 3, and i can buy K2SO 4. My question is: would K2SO4 react
with NaNO3 or NH4NO3 to m ake KNO 3 ?
2 NaNO3 + K2SO 4 ---> Na2SO 4 + 2 KNO3

or
2 NH4NO3 + K2SO4 ---> (NH4)2SO4 + 2 KNO 3
I can't find any inform a t i o n a b o u t t h a t o n g o o g le...

or, is there a n available potassium compound that could react with NH4NO3 or NaNO 3 to m ake KNO3 ? (i ca n't get KC l nor KOH
nor K2CO 3)
Thanks :)

Y o u n e e d t o u s e c a l c i u m nitrate. The others would work, but how to seperate them when they're all in solution?
Horrigan D e c e m ber 16th, 2006, 07:15 AM

So, those reactions are right ?
For the separation, i was thinking on using solubilities

If you use calcium nitrate, the resulting calcium sulphate precipitates out to form a s l u d g e at the b ottom from which you can
sim ply pour the potassium nitrate solu tion off from .

F i n d a n o t h e r c o m p o u n d . T h e l e a s t s o l u b l e c o m p o u n d p r e c i p i t a t e s 1st.
Sulp h a t e s o f p o t a s s i u m a n d s o d i u m a r e l e s s s o l u b l e t h a n a n y o f t h e n i t r a t e s
involved. Are you sure you can't find KCl in the form of salt substitute or
ice melter ? I've used that with NaNO3 in the past but I have to be honest.
It's a pain in the ass getting your KNO3 that way.

2 NaNO3 + K2SO 4 ---> Na2SO 4 + 2 KNO3
I'm quite sure this ones right, not com pletely sure but you could do a test by working out the solubilities of all 4 at a specific
temp. then add enough water for one of the possibilities to dissolve (ie. 2NaNO 3 and K2SO4 or Na2SO 4 and 2KNO3) By
working out if all the chem icals dissolved you can tell if the reaction occurred.
It's best to p urify you r chem icals before doing this test, use accurate scales and a thermom eter to get the right results.

W ell, i live in France, no KCl for remplacement of NaCl here, no KNO 3 in gardenstores, som etimes NH4NO3 or NaNO3, but I was
lucky !
I heard cigarette ashes were pretty pure K2CO 3, I'll try this one.
In fact, i could get KC l by stealing it in a farmer store, not far from here, where all fertilize rs are stored outside... i know they
have KCl (do n't ask me how) but i don 't really like this idea...
I'd love to get K2CO 3, because with NH4NO3 it makes amm o n i a a n d K N O 3 , a m monia is very easy to rem ove !
Thanks c.Tech, i think i'll try 2 NaNO3 + K2SO4 ---> Na2SO4 + 2 KNO3 and the other one too (because NH4NO3 is really easier
to get and cheaper !)
If it works and i find a way to separate KNO3 I will tell here how to do.
Thanks to all :)

I heard cigarette ashes were pretty pure K2CO 3, I'll try this one.
Charcoal left over from a fire is better, cigarette ashes would be loaded with heap s of other chemicals and how much cigs would
you need to sm oke to get 1g of K2CO3?
Thanks c.Tech,
No problem, you can do us a favour now and fix up your gram mar by capitalising your letter 'i'. ;)

W ell, that's right :( but wood ashes contains at most 10 % K2CO3 I think...
Sorry for m y " i " a n d t h a n k s a g a i n : p

Cindor D e c e m ber 17th, 2006, 07:17 AM
You can filtrate the K2CO 3 from the rest of the ashes...

I heard the yield of K2C O3 wa s low, even if it's not too bad instead of wa sting your wood and contributing to the gre e n h o u s e
effect just buy it from a chem supplier, its not a suspicious chem ical.

Ok thanks, I'll try to get K2CO 3 from a chem ical supplier, but the nearest chem ical supplier is 20m iles from here :-/ I'll try fist
K2SO4.
Yesterday, I went to a gardenshop and found a fertilizer nam ed "organic potash" (in french,"potasse organique"), n o NPK was
given, but the composition was 38% K2O (38% K)
Here are the comm ons chem ical compounds often called potash and % K:
38,6 % KNO 3
56,5 % K2C O 3
69,6 % KO H
52,34 % KC l
44,8 % K2SO 4
Does that m eans that "Organic Potash" is KNO3 ? I just ask if someone knows, because I would'nt like to spend 8$ for shit ^^
Thanks :)

Google is your friend

I know, if I a sk it, it's because I did no find anything on google :(

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > EMP schematics
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pickledenumerator D e c e m ber 16th, 2006, 02:48 AM

After doing som e research on both this forum and quite a few others, m ost of which we're located off of google, I fo u n d s o m e
schematics for an EMP device. The materials required for this aren't too terribly difficult to find and with a little m o n e y , a n d a
little effort, it was quite simple to build . Now I'm not quite sure yet of all of the forum rules, so am hesitant to post the tif files
I downloaded. I will however p ost the link where i found these 2 schem atics. They both cam e in a single zip file the mini design
is th e one that I used for m y EMP experim ent. Although the range is not significant and the pulse not very powerful, I did in
fact test it successfully on both floppy disks at a range of around 5 yards as well as a sm all portable radio at the sam e r a n g e .
The floppy disks were erased and the portable radio ceased to work.
T h o s e s c h e m atics can be found here.
http://www.linkbase.o r g / e m p - w e a p o n /

Y o u u s e d i n f o r m a t i o n from a site with porn add s down the side and got good results? :p
Good job ;)
rayman D e c e m ber 16th, 2006, 10:04 AM

First weclom e to the forum , Second as a newbie you are m akeing some big claims, I would post pictures of your device ASAP
pickledenumerator D e c e m ber 16th, 2006, 12:48 PM

I'll make sure to do so, as soon as I can borrow a digi cam :)
EDIT: I spoke with a friend ea rlier today, he is going to let m e b orrow his digital camcorde r. Be with watchfu l eyes, a n d
hopefully within the next couple of days, I'll add a link to youtube so you all can see how it worked .

I personaly would like to see it as I'm sure would a few others with out doubt, seeing as I do not see any p ictures in that zip
file, not now nor when i first downloaded it several m o n t h s a g o
Chopper D e c e m ber 19th, 2006, 09:51 AM

P e r h a p s I ' m m i s s i n g s o m ething here; How would one use a sim ple air-core wire-wound inductor as a directional antenna?
I m ean, if this device is said to nuke floppies and a rad io @ 5 yards, then how does one isolate the electronics from the 'pulse'
- the one that operates at 50% duty cycle? :rolleyes:
Not only that, but how m uch energy can be stored in (a) a coil without a ferrite core (b) in a capacitor of 0.1 or 1.0 u F..
Me thinks that even without the schem atics, this is nothing m ore than a radio transmitter. I'd be surprised if the peak voltage
across the coil reache d m ore than a few thousa nd volts. (I'd actually be surprised if it was 1000v +)
Additionally, the parts list m e n t i o n s f r e q u e n c i e s f r o m 1 5 6 H z t o 1 4 0 K h z . S o c o u l d a n y b o d y e x p l a i n t o m e how a circuit that is

switching 156 tim e s a second can ram p the voltage up anywhere _near_ fast enough to be of concern?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > O ne hundred most com monly
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Dr HigZ D e c e m ber 18th, 2006, 08:08 AM

http://www.zshare.net/download/explosives-pdf.html

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > R obert Alberg/Kenneth O l s e n
(Ricin Manuf.)
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I ' v e s e a r c h e d t h e s i t e a n d h a v e n ' t s e e n a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h e s e 2 W a s h i n g ton men and their legal troubles regarding
m anufacturing ricin.
Robert Alberg manufactured ricin in his kirkland apartment and em ailed several of his fam ily m e m bers stating that he wanted
to end all life on earth, and he wanted to die on federal death row, he stated that "that would be so nice".
He was only charged with possession o f ricin (not m anufacturing!!) and he was only sentenced to 3 years in federal prison, his
r e l e a s e d a t e i s 1 2 / 2 3 /2007, h e is currently at Rochester FMC in Minnesota.
K e n n e t h O lsen who was only caught in possession of ricin and did not m ake any terrorist threats, (as Robert Alberg did),
received 13 years in federal prison. His release date is 4/2/2011.
This shows just how retarded our justice system is. I can't understand why someone making such terrorist threats and making
the poisons to back up their statements would receive such a light sentence.
My brother who sold guns illegally received 28 years in federal prison followed by lifetime probation, he also has a laundry list
of probation conditions he has to obide by for the rest of his life including a curfew, and has to com ply with searches of his
r e s i d e n c e a n d p e r s o n at the whim of his P.O. and No alcohol or drugs.
I t s e e m s t o m e that the lesse r the crime the m ore the tim e. Next, riding a bicycle without a headlight at night will get you
executed on the spot.
Here's a link to the story about Robert Alberg:

http://archives.seattletim es.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=ricin13e&date=20040413&query=ricin

Maybe alberg was considered a nutter, so he got a light sentence, whereas the other guy m a y h a v e h a d s o m e t i e ( e v e n
remotely) to a m ilitia or some such organization.
Also, maybe the nutter only had castor bean powder, and the other had actual ricin?
As for your brother, I can tell you anything having to do with guns is a major ass-ream ing if the feds get involved.

Robert Alberg (3 year sentence) was only diagnosed with Asperger's syndrom e. This m e a n s a b s o l u tely nothing beca use it only
alters the way a person com m unicates and is not a psychotic disorder. Asperger's syndrom e is also called "Highly functional
autism "
R o b e r t A l b e r g h a d p o s s e s s i o n o f a c t u a l Ricin and had Bacillus Anthracis cultures in his apa rtment.

Anthrax + Ricin = Tim e

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Boiling Sulfuric acid
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Esteban D e c e m ber 23rd, 2006, 03:27 PM

I was making TNP when I added KNO3 it got ve ry hot so do I really have to boil the Sulfuric acid?
Alexires D e c e m ber 23rd, 2006, 07:29 PM

Fair enough, you have some questions anoud TNP.
But grow som e f u c k i n g b r a i n s a n d a t l e a s t p o s t t h e 2 o f t h e m T O G E T H E R s o m e w h ere in one of the many th reads relating to

TNP (aka Picric Acid).
If you had run a search on Picric Acid here, you would have found this (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?
t=4951&highlight=picric+acid) thread, and this (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum /showthread.php?t=107&highlight=picric+acid)
thread, as well as this (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showth read.php?t=5643 &highlight=picric+acid) thread. Any one of
which would have eith er
a) Answered your questions or

b) W o u l d h a v e b e e n a s u i t a b l e p l a c e t o p o s t y o u r q u e s t i o n s .
Thats only on the first of 5 pages of results.
W ith m ost synthesis, when a certain concentration of chem ical is used it's because you NEED that concentration.
If your synth (which I hope you found at Mega's Chem Lab) says 98% sulfuric acid, then you need to use 9 8%. It isnt that
hard, boil your acid till it has a density of 1.84 g/cm3 or there about.
In regards to your question about usin g NH4NO 3, I'm pretty sure you can.
But I'm not going to do your research for you, go find it yourself.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Free down l o a d v i d e o s / d o c o s /
banned books/etc
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voivod D e c e m ber 23rd, 2006, 09:23 PM

Greetings all, I did a search on all foru ms for nw0 and cam e u p e m p t y s o s i n c e i t d o e s n ' t a p p e a r t o h a v e b e e n m e n t i o n e d
before, here it is http://nw0.info
I don't know if the stuff there is of any interest to you o r you've seen it all before but I thought I'd m ention it, it's free for
download, no registra tion required, som e interesting firearms stuff under eBooks, loads of conspiracy videos, all in all they
claim +90Gb of stuff.
Share and enjoy
ozboy D e c e m ber 24th, 2006, 04:37 AM

T h e r e m u s t b e s o m ething wrong with the search engine.
This topic has been m entioned many tim es.

Searches for words or acronym s of 3 le tters or less will return no results, so searching for nw0 will bring ZERO results.
A se arch for world ord er video will get you very specific results. :)

The google search, however, should find such a term... but it doesn't (ye t).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > This can't be for real
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Gerbil D e c e m ber 23rd, 2006, 10:46 PM

This guy m ust literally live under a rock, although his ideas about gun co ntrol are just abo ut as intelligent as one:
http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.11.6.21654.1217 .html
P e r h a p s t h e m o s t c o m m on justification is that of "self-defense." Rather than relying on our highly trained police force, these
p e o p l e b e l i e v e i n s o m e sort of vigilante justice, not unlike cowboys and robbers in the old west. Bo o k s s u c h a s M o r e G u n s ,
Less Crim e argue for this.
S u p p o s e a p e r s o n b r e a k s i n t o your house at night and attacks you with a knife. Now, according to the right-wing point of view,
you would be justified in shooting him with the gun you keep hidden under your pillow.
However, it is impossible to truly understand the circum stances leading up to this person's breaking into your house . P e r h a p s
h e i s a m inority. Maybe he was made fun of in school for being a homosexual. He is probably poor. Knowin g these facts, how
can you, an upper m iddle class exploiter, be justified in ending this man's life? The answer is: you can't.
In fact this m an is ho m e l e s s a n d w a s m erely looking for som e food to feed his starving family. By killing him in so-called self-
d e f e n s e y o u a r e n o b etter tha n a com m on m urderer.
ShadowMyGeekSpace D e c e m ber 23rd, 2006, 11:12 PM

Noone can be that m oronic.... if it is fo r real, I'm sure the person had a horrible childhood, being beaten re peatedly in the
s c h o o l y a r d b y p e o p l e h e d i d n 't stand up to.
PS: W h o t h e h e l l c a l l s s e l f d e f e n s e m urder? ugh.
knowledgehungry D e c e m ber 24th, 2006, 12:43 AM

W hat worries m e m ore than anti-gun laws is that Am ericans are stupid enough to fall for them .
cyclosarin D e c e m ber 24th, 2006, 02:09 AM

Since when h as capital punishm ent been justified for a break in with a knife?
W ouldn't it be better for all concerned to just taser them or spray them with tear gas till th ey drop the knife and call the police?
ragman7 D e c e m ber 24th, 2006, 10:58 AM

Don't believe m e ? I m agine the typical day of the white m ale hunter:
The hunter g ets up early, before daybreak. Wh ile shaving, he cuts his face. He tastes the blood and it is good. His desire fo r
the prey has become sexual.
Late r that m orning, the hunter enters the forest with his phallic firearm , and stalks the great horne d b e a s t . H e s e e s o n e
inno cently drinking water from a stream, and raises his phallus-gun to his shoulder. Pulling the trigger he releases his sperm -
bullet into the innocent m a m mal. But rather than life, his sperm-bullet spreads death. The deer grunts in surprise, and falls to
the ground, dead.
haha, It's go tta be a joke!
Cobalt.45 D e c e m ber 24th, 2006, 01:06 PM

I believe that much o f this sort of spew is a kin d of "reverse psychology".;)
A se mi-clever way of m aking people see a particular point of view by stating som ething so outrage ously skewed, that the first
im pulse is to defend the very action th at's bein g called into question.
W hich is the intention all along.
This was probably endorsed by the NRA.:D

A woman gets in a parking lot elevator, and a m a n , n a k e d e x c e p t f o r a c o n d o m o n h i s e r e c t c o c k a n d a s k i - m ask, jum p s i n

with her just as the doors are closing.
W hich is m ore likely?
A) She's about to get RAPED. :)
OR
B) He's just come back from a M a s k e d Streakers ball and put the condom on to keep his johnson warm on the walk back to his
car. :p
W ith som e things, it's pretty fucking obvious to anyone who didn't take the short bus to school tha t nothing good will come
from certain actions.
Anyone who breaks into your house at night an d with a knife isn't there because they're the Butcher Knife Fairy. They m a y b e
coming to slip you on e, but it won't be under your pillow. ;)
And, if I was a burglar, given the option of being shot in the head, or carved and skewered by a foot long piece of razored
stee l and left to die with m y entrails around m y ankles, I'd rather take the bullet, thank you very much. :)

A se mi-clever way of m aking people see a particular point of view by stating som ething so outrage ously skewed, that the first
im pulse is to defend the very action th at's bein g called into question.
That's what I was thinking, but he seem s t o b e k e e p i n g up the act fairly consistently if you look at his other posts. Could be a
troll, of course...
In other news, apparently it's legal for vets in the UK to own han d g u n s , i n c l u d i n g . 4 4 m a g n u m : e e k : . T a l k a b o u t a l o o p h o l e . . .
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-ne ws/1451949/posts

Are you fucking retarded? Have you ever been sprayed or sprayed som eone with tear gas? Guess what buddy, tear gas isn't
k n o c k o u t g a s , s o m eone can still kill you after being sprayed with tear gas. The sam e g o e s f o r b e i n g t a s e r e d I h a v e s e e n
v i d e o s o f p e o p l e h i g h o n P C P c o m pletely unaffected by several police tasers.
W hen it comes to pro tecting m e or my family I won't take the chance of m y family getting hurt so som e strung out junkie can
live a few m ore m onths before OD'ing in an alley or getting shot by the cops.
On the issue of the validity of the article I personally belive that people are this stupid, I.E. Cyclosarin.

W hat if your taser or teargas m isses the target and just pisses him off? W hat might have been a robbery just turned into a
robbery homicide... You don't always n eed to fire a gun for it to work against a criminal.
Hm m, it would be nice to know the exact situation and psychological m akeup of every would be crim inal, but that just is pure
fantasy. If som e stranger carrying a knife is rifling through m y cupboards he is getting shot. If he wants food let him go to a
church, soup kitchen, or steal from the dam n wal m art.
sparkchaser D e c e m ber 25th, 2006, 08:28 AM

Guess what buddy, te a r g a s i s n ' t k n o c k o u t g a s , s o m eone can still kill you after being spra yed with tear gas. The sam e g o e s f o r
bein g t a s e r e d I h a v e s e e n v i d e o s o f p e o p l e h i g h o n P C P c o m p l e t e l y u n a f f e c t e d b y s e v e r a l p o l i c e t a s e r s .
I agree.
During training for Em bassy Security, we are subjected to numerous different type s of irritants, and expecte d to perform our
duties as if nothing happened .
The worst one by far was the pepper spray.
T h e t y p e u s e d w a s g o v e r n m ent issue (too strong to buy as a civilian, it is worse than bear spray) crowd control canisters.
Training goes as as follows;
Y o u p l a c e y o u r s i d e - h a n d l e b a t o n o n t h e g r o u n d. Half a canister of high octane capsicum oleo spray is hosed onto your
forehead/eye/mouth area. You wait for about 20 seconds to make sure it's burning good and hot, and your adrenaline is
p u m ping hard. On the com m and of the instructor you pick up yo ur baton and start attacking a tackling dum m y. I am not
t a l k i n g o f a r a n d o m k a m i k a z i a t t a c k ! Y o u w a l k t o t h e d u m m y a n d t a k e c o m m ands from the instructor as to what type of swing
you will use, and where you are to hit the dum my. You stand there hitting the dum my until you have it right, and only then are
you allowed to dunk your face into a bucket of cold water. (Cold water is a very tem porary relief, th e burning is still there for
about 12 hours, and the spray stays under your fingernails for weeks. W oe be to the nailbiter!)
People are very able to keep going after being hit by te ar gas or what have you. The stuff they used at sch ool was 4+ times
high er concentration pepper spray than anythin g you are (legally) able to buy in a store. And as fo r CS gas? That shit's a
complete jok e! There has to be a thick fog of it in the room before it is anywhere near debilitating.
I'd much rather put a shotgun round to their ch est than run the risk of being run through, throatcut, or shot. Not for sadistic
plea sure, but because that's one of the few ways that a man will drop right then and there with no m uss or fuss. Self
preservation is high on m y list of impe ratives.

That idiot is quoting the sam e psych horseshit that m y aunt doe s . S h e ' s a
child psychologist and hates g uns. She, like others of her ilk, are fond of
m isquoting Freud on the subject of guns - that somehow guns are only
wanted by irrational p e o p l e . W hat Freu d talked about was the irrational fear
g u n s . T h a t s h o u l d s o u n d f a m iliar given the hysteria about hom e chem istry.
If m y aunt had her way, I'd be in psych ward, wearing a straightjacket and
p u m ped full of sedatives/tranquilizers.
NBK's quote about rapists brought back a m e m ory and a laugh that I got
while watching the m ovie 'Dirty Harry': :D :D :D
C a l l a h a n : W ell, when an adult m ale is chasing a female with intent to com mit rap e , I s h o o t
the bastard. That's m y policy.
Mayor: Inten t? How did you establish that?
C a l l a h a n : W h e n a n a k e d m an is chasing a wom an through an alley with a butcher's knife and

a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!
The Mayor: He's got a point.

Hirudinea D e c e m ber 25th, 2006, 04:47 PM

Tasers and 'gas' aren't com pletly effective in stoping a m an, and since its your house, your entitled to determ ine what form of
defence you want to use. As for Captia l Punishm ent, hardly, whe n a m a n p u t s h i s h e a d i n a l i o n s m o u t h a n d the lion bites it
off, thats suicide, not m urder.
Ropik D e c e m ber 25th, 2006, 05:47 PM

CS sprays are funny toys. Good for enraging, bad for stopping.
Freu d said that "People with irrational fear of weapons are usually em o t i o n a l l y a n d s e x u a l l y i m m ature", am ong other things :).
Otherwise, I think that being actually confronted with som e b o d y a r m ed with a butcher's kn ife would change author's view
considerably - if he would live long enough to enjoy it, that is.

The bleaters who got guns banned would, after being confronted by a knife-weilding criminal, not have a sudden realization
that guns are good for self-defense, but rather, that knives need to be banned too!
Hence, the nonsense in the UK. :p

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Electrical light socket wiring question
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megalomania December 25th, 2006, 05:39 AM

I feel like a newb asking this :) I am trying to wire a light socket, a standard lightbulb socket. I want to wire more than one together, but I am having trouble finding any info
on how to do it.
Specifically I want to wire 6 light sockets to a single switch. I can hook one up, but I don t the proper way to string several together. The libraries closed, I have found
no websites; any hints?
sparkchaser December 25th, 2006, 07:57 AM

Wire them in parallel. If you try to run them in series, you will overheat your circuit, and if you blow a bulb, all the lights after that bulb will shut off. I would recomend 3 buss
bars (one foreach polarity) for all the leads routed through a heavy duty switch that is capable of handling the wattage. That would be the easiest/cheapest. If you have the
dough, there are switch/relay setups that can do the same thing.

The Google is our friend:
http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/el_cords_outlets_wiring/0,2036,DIY_13803,00.html
UTFSE. :p
akinrog December 26th, 2006, 10:43 AM

Wire them in parallel. If you try to run them in series, you will overheat your circuit, and if you blow a bulb, all the lights after that bulb will shut off.
All bulbs not only after but also before the burnt bulb shall go off since the circuit is now open in series circuit. Regards.
10fingers December 26th, 2006, 08:18 PM

You just wire them in parallel. The other thing you have to consider is wattage. If you use 14 gauge wire that can handle 15 amps. So for instance, 15 amps x 120 volts= 1800
watts. So you could use up to 6 300 watt bulbs on this one circuit. But, if you are going to use an existing circuit then you have to consider the current draw of the other things
on it.
The current draw cannot be larger than the wire and circuit breaker is rated for. A 14 ga. wire takes a 15 amp breaker, a 12 ga. wire takes a 20 amp breaker and a 10 ga. wire
takes a 30 amp.

I found what I was looking for, that you Instructables.com
http://www.instructables.com/id/EECBH5S42FEP2870OC/
I was just reading about this light before Xmas on engadget I think. The guy who designed this light was a former PhD chemist turned lighting designer. The place that sells this
light wants $200 for it! The instructables version has only 4 lights instead of 6, but the homemade version looks just as good as the retail "designer" version, all for $25.
What I wanted out of it is the pic of the wiring. That's all I needed to see to figure out what I want. I hit all the DIY type websites, but they didn't help much. A picture is worth
10,000 words to me.
I snagged some 14 gauge wire from work, and now I need to figure out if I should keep the bulbs on their sides, or have them point straight down. I am using compact
fluorescent bulbs at 27 watts each (100W equivalents), with six wired up together. My original plan was for 16 incandescent bulbs, but now I know that would probably trip a
substation and burn down my house since 10-14 running electrical items is the max for each circuit breaker.
I am thinking about going to the extraordinary trouble of using a drill press to cut 3 holes in two lengths of board, placing the sockets in each hole, and wiring the backs in a
middle gap. There will then be 3 lights facing in opposite directions, and I will cover the works with a semi opaque lexan plastic to evenly diffuse the light.
Cancer January 18th, 2007, 12:30 AM

You might be able to go the 16 incandescent route, depending on the wattage. If they still add up to too much and you really have your heart set on it, you can run a new
circuit. If your breaker box is currently full, you could look into buying a piggy-back breaker. They're livesavers.
megalomania January 20th, 2007, 04:41 PM

I begin to understand why photographic lights use a big brick of a power box to run the lights, and why they cost so damn much.
My primary overriding all encompassing ultimate goal (to put it bluntly) is to do this on the cheap. Cheap as in I want to put this on instructables.com and include it in my write
up for an audience that wants to spend as little money as possible.
Yes, my DIY DIY is getting more expensive all the time. Did I mention I had to buy a 1 1/4 inch wood bit to drill the socket holes? I think I just did. It's a good thing I have
access to a drill press... Now then, the part where I sand and stain my box is completely optional :)
Having sixteen lightbulbs turned on all at once would be impractical for a number of reasons, photographically speaking. First of all, that is way too much light. Second of all,
that is way too much heat. (Put your hand into the box young megalomania... heat upon heat upon heat). I don't fancy a tan that bad.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Innovations in Robotics...
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festergrump D e c e m ber 26th, 2006, 12:39 PM

Is it the beginning technology for the Terminator or a robotic equivalent of R e - P e t ? Y O U d ecide... It's freak y but very neat. It
c a n g o s o m any ways so far as what it's ultim ately used for, I'm sure.
Once the military tosses m illions m ore dollars at it and it's perfe cted, who could say we wo n ' t b e s e n d i n g t h o u s a n d s o f t h e s e
overseas to help strip the diaperheads of their oil? Add weapon system , AI, and cams and you've got a whole new warrior. Our
guys will only be arou nd for te ch support. :)
http://video.google.com /videoplay?docid=-3801629182 5 4 7 2 8 3 1 3 6 & q = m ilitary&hl=en
Grapes Of Wraith D e c e m ber 26th, 2006, 08:53 PM

There is an article about this in Popula r Science m agazine, can't rem e m ber which issue though.
Alexires D e c e m ber 26th, 2006, 10:28 PM

I can see a little copper meshing, combined with a basic AI planner (sim ilar to those used in gam e s l i k e O p e r a t i o n : F l a s h p o i n t )
a n d a M i n i g u n going a long way.
Even if they increased the spe ed to 3 or 4 times that of a hum an running (not impossible) it would b e a n a w e s o m e anti-
personnel weapon.
If th ey were cheap enough, you could load them with a 100kg explosive/FAE to m a k e a n a b s o l u t e l y u n b e a t a b l e w e a p o n .
Soon, we will see the era where infantry are arm ed with anti-m aterial wea pons sim ply because of these little beasts.
*grin* On another no te, m a k e i t 5 0 t i m e s b i g g e r a n d w e h a v e W ar of the Worlds.
Frunk D e c e m ber 27th, 2006, 04:00 PM

Everyone knows walker robots are inferior. Aside from being robotic challenges an d h e l p i n g d e v e l o p h u m a n - w o r n e x o s k e l e t o n s ,
I don't know why they didn't just use tracks instead of legs. That thing is too easy to trip.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Hot plate stirrers
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W hile surfing Ebay I found several hot plate stirrers at a fair price in case any one is looking for one
ebay user name : papam ed4
http://search.ebay.co m / _ W 0 Q Q f r t s Z 1 0 0 Q Q s a s s Z p a p a m e d 4

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Potassium C hlorate Black
powder?
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fractional distiller D e c e m ber 27th, 2006, 03:44 PM

I h a v e d o n e m a n y s e arches on the forum to find anything relating to this. I know it exists because I rem e m b e r r e a d i n g a b o u t
it here once. But for some rea son I can not find anythin g on it.
S o I h a v e p o sted my question here so I will be not be (HED) by nbk for my ignorance in this situation.
But isnt it plausible to replace potassium nitrate with potassium chlorate and then m ill it with your other req uired weights of
charcoal and sulfur. O r will I just end up killing m yself in the process from milling potassiu m chlora te and sulfur together?
+++++++++++
Try it and report back to us with the results. :) NBK
Exothermic January 3rd, 2007, 02:28 PM

KCL03 can never be used instead of KN03. It is extrem ely sensitive and if you were to ball m ill them together it is likely to
explode.
A l t h o u g h i t h a s b e e n p r o v e n b y a d d i n g a b o u t 0 .5g to about 50g of Blackpowder can in fact increase the burn rate, b ut i would
suggest you try this.
Sorry... KC LO 3 c a n n o t b e u s e d i n s t e a d of KNO 3. Ball m illing this mix wou ld most likely cause it to blow up.
Although it has been proven that adding a tiny amount of KCLO4 to blackpowder increases the burn rate but i would not
suggest you try this.
tomu January 3rd, 2007, 06:05 PM

Milling potassium chlorate or perchlorate with any com bustible m aterial is a recipe for desaster. Don't even think about it!
Especially if the m ix contains sulphur. Sulphur m ixed with chlorate/perchlorate will be very very sensitive any com position which
contains chlo rate/perchlorate will be increased in it's sensitivty dramatically.
Y o u c a n m ill potassium chlorate or perchlorate alone or with som e caposil in a perfectly clean m illing char to get it to fine
particles.
Gerbil January 3rd, 2007, 08:17 PM

Or will I just end up k illing myself in th e process from m illing potassium chlorate and sulfur together?
It's a distinct possibility. In sh ort, don't do it.
I f y o u ' r e d e s p e r a t e , p o t a s s i u m c h l o r a t e a n d s u g a r m i x e s a r e m uch safer (although the perchlorate is preferable).
jetz January 3rd, 2007, 09:53 PM

W hat you m aybe thin king of is H3, which is a KC lO3/Charcoal, m ix of 75/25.
By a ll m ean this should not be milled as its im pact sensitive, just use the diaper m ethod to m ix air float ch arcoal and KClO3 .
tmp January 3rd, 2007, 11:18 PM

That's a recipe for an instant explosion when any kind of friction is applied.
W hen I was very, very young I m i x e d K C l O 3 a n d r e d P t o g e t h e r , k n o w n a s
Armstrong's m ixture. I found out, alm ost the hard way, just how sensitve
this mix is to friction. KClO 3 m ixed with charcoal will work but don't even
think of grinding or ball milling it !
A little off topic but som ething I wanted to m ention. I purchased o n e o f

those old tim e flour grinders. It's perfect for grinding ingredients, other than
m etals, that can't be ground together. It com es out fine as flour as its
nam e indicates. BTW, this hand-cranked model was something like $30 on
eBay.
jimmyboy1 January 4th, 2007, 08:23 AM

Chlorate is m uch stronger than nitrate and m ore friction sensitive but yes you can m a k e b lack powder from it --- the reason its
not used for guns is because its corrosive and will foul barrels plus its prone to se lf ignition with sulfur (don't grind them
together) - b ut if you are sim ply using it to blow something up n o problem s.
Gerbil January 4th, 2007, 05:53 PM

but if you are simply using it to blow som e t h i n g u p n o p r o b l e m s .
T h e p r o b l e m i s t h a t m o s t p e o p l e d o n ' t w a n t t o b e s u i c i d e b o m bers ;) .
Bert January 4th, 2007, 07:44 PM

Shortly after Berthollet discovered Potassium chlorate, chlorate gunpowder m anufacture was attem pted at the French royal
p o w d e r w o r k s a t E s s o n e s . T h e r e s u l t i n g e x p l o s i o n e n d e d t h e e x p e r i m ent, and nearly ended Bertho llet as well. They were
m aking that powder with a STAMP MILL- W ho says the French are not brae?
Cobalt.45 January 5th, 2007, 11:49 PM
Chlorate is m uch stronger than nitrate and m ore friction sensitive but yes you can m a k e b lack powder from it
No, you can't m ake black powder from it.
Y o u c a n m ake a powder from it that burns and is black , but damm it, it's NOT bla ck powder!
I have compiled 44 different compositions for BP, ranging from Marcus Graecus' 66.66/22.22/11.11 (KNO 3/C/S) of the 8th.
century to 75/15/10 of today and not one of them h a s a n y p o t a s s i u m chlorate in it.
jimmyboy1 January 6th, 2007, 03:27 AM

oh boy -- ok for cobalt's sake.. this is not "true " black powder -- but to the rest of the world it will be powde r that is in fact
black and will ignite a n d e x p l o d e . . .
Gerbil January 11th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 9 : 5 9 P M

So if I spray AP crystals with black paint, it's the sam e thing? :p

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > whats inside
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thegreatcheese D e c e m ber 27th, 2006, 06:19 PM

Anyone know exactly whats inside of signal flares I found a brok en one and it a yellow powder, its a very slow burning powder.
I think the brand nam e was "Orion"
Cobalt.45 D e c e m ber 28th, 2006, 08:35 AM

If it's a red or white, here's what you would have found had you U TFSE:
SECTION III - HAZARDO US INGR EDIENTS BASIC MATERIALS OSHA LD 50LC 50SIGNIFICANT EFFECTS PEL Strontium Nitrate C AS#
10042-76-9 None Est. 2750 m g/kg None Est. Dust can irritate sk in, eyes & m ucou s m e m b r a n e s . ( o r a l / r a t ) B a r i u m P e r o x i d e
CAS# 1304-29-6 Unknown Unknown Unknown Strong oxidizer of organic m aterials, keep away. Potassium Perchlorate None Est.
Unknown Unknown Irritant to skin, eye s & mucous m e m branes. C AS# 7778-74-7 Moderate oxidize r-keep a way from g o o d
f u e l s . M a g n e s i u m C A S # 7 4 3 9 - 9 5 - 4 1 0 m g / m 3 U nknown Unknown Dust can enter skin through scra tches and cuts to produce
pain ful lesions. Black Powder Dust and powder can be explosive. Polyvinyl Chloride CAS# 9002-86-2 1 ppm Determ i n e d t o b e
carcinogen. Avoid breathing dust.Binder Unknown SECTION IV - FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARD DATA Auto Ignition of Contents
D O T CLASS U.N. NUMBER FLAMMABLE EXPLO SIVE LOW ER U PPER Black Powder- 400oF and above1.4G 0191LIMITSN/A N/A
EXTINGUISHING MEDIA W a t e r d e l u g e .

Ah, Yes ! Even com m o n r o a d f l a r e s a r e g o o d s o u r c e s o f O T C c h e m i c a l s o nce
they're put through a separation process. A little RP and a lot of strontium
nitrate come to m ind ! Bon ap petite ! :D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > inform a t i o n o n l a t h e s
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Jacob Kell D e c e m ber 27th, 2006, 08:05 PM

I would like if som eone here with actual experience in m etalworking could provide m e with s o m e general information on lath es
that can be used to m ake small calibre barrels and m achine gun bolts. I live in apartm ent with a sm a l l b a s e m e n t , a n d I d o n ' t
know if it is possible for me to som ehow install a sm all lathe. So I wander what are the ne ccessary requirem ents for turning
p i e c e s o f m e tal, how noisy it is and would it be enough to have a small sealed sp ace, vacuum clea ner for a ll the m etal dust
and a good gasmask?
Thank you.
shooter3 D e c e m ber 27th, 2006, 10:41 PM

Get a book called "Barrels and Actions". It should still be available on the internet som ewhere.
10fingers D e c e m ber 28th, 2006, 03:27 AM

Jaco b Kell, so, basically what you are saying is that you want to m a k e m a c h i n e g u n s i n y o u r b a s e m ent?
W ell, there a r e n u m e r o u s f i l e s a v a i l a b l e o n l i n e o n h o m e m a d e w e a p o n s . T h e r e a r e s e v e r a l o n m a k i n g r i f l e b a r r e l s . T h e r e i s a
special m ach ine required for this and to m e it doesn't look easy. Maybe you could just buy a barrel or a used gun of the right
caliber and m ake it work. You don't ne e d a l a t h e t o m a k e a b a r r e l b u t y o u m ight need it to m ake the rifling machin e.
As for the the bolt, you m ay b e able to get by with a sm all benchtop m illing m achine.
The metal shavings given off are neither vaporous or harmful, they have no smell. If you use a cu tting fluid, that m a y h a v e a
slight smell but I wou ldn't worry about it.

how noisy it is and would it be enough to have a small sealed space, vacuum cleaner for all the m e t a l d u s t a n d a g o o d
gasm ask?
I g u e s s y o u h a v e t o s t a r t s o m ewhere, although your best friend at this stage is Google.
T h e n o i s e i s n ' t s u c h t h a t y o u s h o u l d h a v e a b i g p r o b l e m , unless the walls are shared by living spaces on th e other side.
T h e s i z e o f y o u r s h o p d e p e n d s o n w h a t's available to you. During W W I I , b a s e m e n t s h o p s p r o v i d e d a l l m anner of m unitions.

But larger is better. Your equipm ent and supplies rapidly grow to use up all available space, regardless of what you start with.
If working with carbon steel and m ost generally available alloys, dust isn't too m uch of an issue. The "turnings" and such are
of a size that will allow them to not become airborne to any great degree .
A nuisance dust m ask and safety glasses will help.
You will find after you 've U TFSE that building yourself a m achine gun is one hell o f an undertaking. IMO , you'd be light years
a h e a d o f t h e gam e by buying an AK and converting it to FA.
But, you m a y b e t h e n e x t b u d ding John Browning or Kalashnikov. So go for it and see where it leads you.

Hello everyone, and thank you for your replies. I thought it would be fine for m e to start with a smoothbore designs like Luty's
SMGs ; ordering the square tu bing, spring and spring strips, and m aking bolts and barrels. Sim p l y g o i n g a r o u n d a n d l o o k i n g
for a 9 m m tube or so would provoke suspicion, and I a m not a licensed gun owner.

It helps to know what country that you're living in if people are to help you with re levant answers, eh? ;)

That's right, I am sorry, I live in Croatia.

Could you not just po p over to Yugoslavia or whatever the bits are called now, and buy a real one?
I u n d e r s t a n d the lure of m aking your own, though. I'd suggest starting with the basics of m a c h i n e t o o l s a n d m a k i n g t h i n g s . G o
with a simple derringer or shotgun design, get used to test firing things, that sort of thing, first. Th e n p e r h a p s g o f o r a s i m p l e
blowback Ste n design , for your first auto. Build in silencers, as these probably will help keep you un-arreste d should you fail to
have the required paperwork, and are unlikely to add m uch to any sentence you get.
XOP KC February 10th, 2007, 12:14 PM

I h a v e e x p e r i e n c e i n m etalworking , I have experience in m a k i n g s u b m a c h i n e g u n a l s o s o I t h i n k I c a n h e l p y o u . I u s e d
Bulg arian C11M lathe and FU 250 m illing m achines. You can buy them s e c o n d h a n d a n d t h e y a r e c h e a p e n o u g h b u t a n y
b a s e m ent is out of the question these m achines are 1 ton each and they require a three phase power supply.
Anyway I take it that you don't have any experience with this kind of m achines (a s k i n g a b out gas m a s k s a n d v a c u u m c l e a n e r
:D ). Having in mind this you really m ade the best choice with P.Luty. For this work I think you can use a bench grinder , angle
grinder , han d drill , files and hacksaw. The angle grinder is really noisy :( m aybe that will be a problem . A good gas torch for
soldering ,brazing and heat treatment. You will need the gas m ask for that if you work in the basem ent :). And since you
started to m a k e a m achine shop buy an welding m achine too ,it's a nice thing to have for any work with m etals :)
If you have any questions about the work ask away. Although I will be most useful to you if you were working on the Bill
Holmes Vol.2 , I suppose I can help you with that work too. Good luck :D
209 February 11th, 2007, 12:12 AM
I h a v e a b i g o l d S o u t h B e n d m etal lathe, The chuck alone weighs nearly 100 pounds! I picked it up second hand at a store
that sells m etal m achines like m ills an d lathes. I also h ave a Sharp industries virtical m ill, both are indespensible for gun
s m i t h i n g . I r e c o m e n d for a strat you buy a cheep im ported lathe, if possible also buy it with a m illing attachm ent - you get
everything you need in one package.
Jacks Complete February 22nd, 2007, 04:25 P M

T h e m i n i l a t h e a n d m ill kits don't have a great reputation. Most people (on the internet and off) suggest that buying two is a
better idea. However, for starting out and "playing" with stuff, I'd go for a m ulti, especially if there is no room for more. A
relatively poor m ill is better th an no mill at all by a long , long way, and with care and hand finishing you can get rea lly good
resu lts. Just don't expect to go into production! (Or, if you do, don't expect interchangable parts between runs)
Floor loading i s s o m e thing you will have to watch if in an apartment, since a sm all and heavy lathe m ight be im possible to g et
to the 5th floor, and even if you did, if it then falls back down to the basem ent, you will be in the shit.
You want a g ood thick concrete slab to bolt the thing too, as vibration and flex will kill your accuracy. R igidity and flatness of
t h e b e d i s m o s t i m p o rtant. If you look around there are m any tips on ho w to improve thin gs.
You will find that your Z (depth) axis will be the worst for milling and drilling, as the play in all the parts maximises it there. Y
is normally n ext, then the X is best. This matters more for repeatability, but it also affects cutting rates, as a bit of chatter will
destroy your work and tools precision.
You will probably want a low powered system. You won't want 3 p hase. You will want som e kind of venting for airflow, as the
coolant does smell. Not much, but it does. You will need a chip tray to catch stuff com ing off if it isn't fitted already, a tool rack,
s o m ewhere to put the stock, other chuck, cutters, etc. too, as well as room t o m o v e a r o u n d t h e m achine.
Go for the biggest throw and length you can com fortably handle. Take a few classes if you can. Books are handy, you can read
up various things, and you will need to refer to the instructions and m a n u a l s m a n y tim e s .
Try to work in either metric or im perial (Am erican) sizes, never b oth.
TreverSlyFox February 23rd, 2007, 01:30 AM

I u s e t o k n o w a g u n s m i t h t h e u s e s a S m i t h y G r a n i t e 1 3 4 0 c o m b o m a c h i n e a n d h e s e e m ed pleased with it. But your looking at
$4,000+ U SD and it weighs about 700-800 lbs.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Satellite Internet & Porn
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View Full Version : Satellite Internet & Porn

I had my internet shut off about a year ago, one reason being that all I could get was dial up, which was so damn slow. Usually around 24kbps. I live in a rural area and there
is no DSL. A local company was offering a deal on a internet satellite system so I gave it a try.
So far it's working very well, I'm getting from 350 to 500 kbps. One thing I have noticed and have a question about is this, when I am downloading a photo, video, or a file it
seems to work very well, but when I am navigating a site it doesn't seem to be any faster than dial up. What I am wondering, is this a problem with the site, too much traffic
perhaps or is it my browser/computer that has a problem?
Another question on a different note. Once I got the internet, of course I had to check out all the free porn on the net. There is just a shitload of it!
What I noticed after a few days on the world porn tour is that my computer really started to slow down and act erratic. I tried deleting cookies and temp internet files to no
avail. I finally did a complete system restore and that seemed to fix the problem. What I am wondering is if anyone else has had these problems?
Also, twice I have gotten a virus off porn sites. When I clicked on a thumbnail, my computer wigged out and started popping up all these ads telling me I had a spyware virus
and that I need to go to some site to get a fix for it, which of course there was a charge for. When I started up internet explorer it automatically directed me to their site.
Fucking Bastards! If I could track these assholes down!
Frunk December 27th, 2006, 08:49 PM

You, sir, have caught alot of ITD's, Internet transmitted diseases. Or spyware, if you prefer.
Download the free Spybot - Search and Destroy (http://www.safer-networking.org/en/download/index.html).
Update it all. Read the readme. Put it in advanced mode, activate resident shield, immunize, go in the Tools Menu, ''file sets'', and activate all the boxes. Then go in system
startup, unclick everything that is suspicious and use google if you aren't sure.
Then, go then do a scan. If prompted to, restart your computer. Anything that tries to reinstall itself on startup should be caught by the resident shield.
By now, you should be clean and your internet tracks erased as a bonus.
After that, go install Mozilla Firefox and be done with it.
Hirudinea December 27th, 2006, 09:46 PM

Internet Porn sites are just like whores, full of diseases, so wear a rubber.
tmp December 27th, 2006, 10:37 PM

10fingers, on uploading information, the transfer rate is usually a lot slower
than download. I'm on a cable connection. The DL is 8 mbits while the
UL is a pathetic 768 kbits. I'd glady trade off some of that DL for more UL.
This would make it faster for the FTP as well.
As for your system slowing down, some internet sites install that fucking
adware. If your running one of MicroShit's operating systems, a look at the
task manager or installed programs will reveal the beast. They've never done
any damage but I don't want unwanted software slowing up my system
either. Part of the problem with getting rid of it is that it can be in several
different places.
Installed programs, startup menu, system configuration, and the registry are
a few of the places it can be installed. Two years ago I found one that had
been placed in the \WINDOWS\SYSTEM32 subdirectory. Every time I tried to
end the process I got the "Access denied' error. Eventually, I had to restart
the system in DOS to clean this sucker out. Whoever installed it had set
the SYSTEM FILE, HIDDEN, and READ-ONLY attributes. If it's installed in the
system registry, you'll need either a good virus cleaner or very specific set
of instructions to remove it. The registry is one of the most DANGEROUS
areas of your computer to modify.
Oh, BTW, if a bunch of popups tell you that you need their software to clean
the virus and/or ad(spy)ware, they're probably the bastards who put it there !
ShadowMyGeekSpace December 28th, 2006, 12:30 AM

One thing I have noticed and have a question about is this, when I am downloading a photo, video, or a file it seems to work very well, but when I am navigating a site it
doesn't seem to be any faster than dial up.It's not the bandwidth that's the problem, it's the latency. I'm confident that you're running in half-duplex mode, and I know sattelite
has more latency than copper.
To save typing: http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/rants/Latency.html
10fingers December 28th, 2006, 03:48 AM

Ok, thanks you guys. tmp, I got your message about the ftp and I will give it a try.
I know that the SOB's who put the adware in my computer are the same ones who are selling the fix. I never went to their site to find out who they were though. As soon as I
realized that I got stung, I shut down and tried to get rid of it.
Motto, free porn is not free and wear a condom.

Search for your porn not by looking through sites but by using a video search engine or a p2p program like limewire.
With a video search you can find thousands of videos (samples) but still good porno :p.
Limewire isnt as trustworthy IMO but Ive had nearly no problems with it when I downloaded through it, just be prepared to get odd file names (My teen girlfriend 18
getting fucked by my fat cock -- teen, pedo, fuck, sex, ass, rape, pecker, shlong, insest, gay, bondage, hentai, midgit, lolicon, animal, elephant, horse.) :p
festergrump December 28th, 2006, 06:26 AM

That's one of the worst ways I know of to view porn, actually, for it also can throw any number of things you don't want on your HDD and you won't know it until you view it.
A prime example is kiddie porn (Pedo, lolita, underage...all keywords to be wary of). How many passes scrubbing that shit off your harddrive will allow you to sleep peacefully
after you delete it? I'd be dreaming of very quiet, black helicopters with liberal-loving gov. ninjas roping down around my house...
I sent 10 Fingers a few links to truly free porn in a PM, so I might as well post them here, too. They're good so long as you don't venture far away from the hosting site (each
page hosted is checked out before being linked to). Let the hosts decide what's legit and what's not since they have staffers around for that purpose. If it's linked to directly
from any of these sites it'll be over 18 yoa only and BS free:
www.ampland.com
www.shavedgoat.com
www.sublimedirectory.com
Happy surfing...

There's always torrents... thepiratebay has alot of porn, and puretna is all porn(but a private tracker that watches ratio).

Is your satellite hookup a bi-directional satellite link (you upload through the satellite) or a one-way, with your computer sending URL requests through a phone line?
Anytime something pops up on your computer saying "You've been infected, click here", you should know you're about to get infected if you do click on it. :rolleyes:
Get firefox, get the suggested plug-in's, as mentioned in a previous post by me on the subject, and you're covered. :)
As for porn, I'd do the rapidshare download from forums (assuming you have a premium account), and not even bother with torrents which are usually intolerable slow or
unreliable, but I've so much porn I've never watched that I've given away my porn discs. :)

ShadowMyGeekSpace, whether it's a desired byproduct of latency or not, my
ISP still limits ALL accounts, including business accounts, to 768 kbits UL.
It really sucks because the FTP could be a whole lot faster when members
upload. BTW, I loved that analogy of the 747 vs. 737 jets in the article. It
explains things in terms of capacity rather than speed although uploading
files from the FTP should send out much larger packets than just surfing a
website.

tmp: Your bandwidth cap of 768kbits up is actually quite respectable, I've only got half a megabit. But as the article mentions, you can have plenty of bandwidth and still
latency.... "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway."

NBK, yes the satellite is uplink too. No, I'm not going to click on anything that they tried to get me go to. It seems to me though that it would be very easy for someone to
track the source of the virus when they're selling the fix. You have to pay them and that would be a direct link. Just seems stupid for them to try this. I'll try the firefox.
Thanks.
This thing got me thinking about the whole anti virus software industry, maybe they're the ones creating and disseminating the new virii so that you have to keep upgrading.
Microsoft is probably in on it too.
Sausagemit December 29th, 2006, 01:41 AM

If it's installed in the
system registry, you'll need either a good virus cleaner or very specific set
of instructions to remove it. The registry is one of the most DANGEROUS
areas of your computer to modify.
HighjackThis (http://www.download.com/HijackThis/3000-8022_4-10379544.html)
This program works extremely well in advanced mode and it's free. Rather than going in and deleting regestry values manually witch is a pain in the ass and is dangerous, as
TMP said, this program hunts down registry strings (stuff that a simple search of the registry can miss) and deletes them. It's cleaned out the filthyest of spyware ridden
computers with ease. I'm talking about over 100 running processes when only 26 are necessary. I recomend giving it a spin even if you don't know too much about computers
becuase it is pretty user friendly too.
sparkchaser December 29th, 2006, 06:24 AM

Fire Fox is good, but another good one is Opera. With F-F becoming more widespread, viruses and spyware are starting to be designed that attack it specifically. Opera is a
little less well known.
In the 2 years I've used Opera, I've only had 2 or 3 viruses that made it past my firewall, and both were easy to clean (this is with daily porn surfing through hundreds of
sites).
My wife still uses Explorer because she's more comfortable with it, and has gotten us infected with more, tougher, and sneakier viruses from average sites on the web. (Of
course I could upgrade to something other than Windows 2000 and it might help a bit!)
Nothing sucks worse than a system flood! Most computers can barely function with one of these types of virus, you have to go in using safe mode and manually search
because you can't even open any programs in normal mode. The flood soaks up all your processor/ram capabilities, and if you're really (un)lucky, it can even fry your
computer by overheating it!

I put the Mozilla Firefox in today, so far it's working very nice. It's much faster and glitch free than IE. I like it!
Another question though, does the firefox browser automatically look for virus, adware, spyware? I have norton antivus 2004 which came already installed on my PC but after
a trial period you have to pay to get it upgraded, it's like $30.00. Screw them on that.
There seems to be a lot of free virus software on the net, what I am wondering is this, if it's free is it any good?
I got the firefox for free, but I don't see how these software co.'s are making money giving this stuff away?
Ok, thanks, back to porn.
Sausagemit December 29th, 2006, 10:33 PM

AVG makes a free excelent virus scanner.

LOL, the topic is hilarious enough, the fact that so many responses came so quickly is even more funny.
Most of your problems probably came from scripts on pages and what not, if you downloaded firefox makesure you get some form of script blocker, they make it really difficult
for you to actualy catch anything. Don't underestimate p2p networks porn collections, they beat the bejesus out of surfing for it. use something like shareaza or something that
allows you to filter based on file size, most things under a megabyte are viri/spyware so you dont want them.
Temporary internet files are generaly the home to most of your major threats, I'd suggest deleting that folder regularly regardless of what your doing. If your not concious of
stealing then the p2p networks may again come in handy, download a pirated version of antivirus.
Of course if you really want to get crazy try using a linux live cd, no way to get infected at all.
I find that sattelite net speed impressive, I'm on an ungodly expensive plan for dsl right now and the highest kbps I've seen is 70, and that wasn't very constant. How much
are you paying for it?
Defendu December 29th, 2006, 11:50 PM

Direct link to AntiVir Guard anti-virus software:
http://www.free-av.com/
10fingers December 30th, 2006, 02:09 AM

Thanks, I' try it. The satellite is a bit expensive, you have to buy the dish, that was $200 installed, then the monthly fee is $50. They have different rates for how much you
use it, for what I pay I can download 7500 Mb a month and I think the upload was 2800 Mb.
But I don't need to have a phone line anymore, just use my cell, and then you have the regular dial up internet fee, so you add those two together and it's around $50 a
month.

I think were paying around 70 a month including some stupid call waiting service plus phone lines. Sattelite sounds pretty good, how does it work through storms and what not?
We have sattelite tv (dish network) up here and the signal is usualy pretty good through storms, thunderstorms dont seem to bother it much but every now and then a big
black cloud will get in the way and kill the signal completely.

We haven't had any storms since I got it so I can't say, but I asked the installer about that and he said that it doesn't happen, we'll see. I know with directv I have that
problem. Heavy rain or snow and it goes out.
Another thing, I got the satellite internet through my electric co-op, I have no idea why they're in the business. They were less than the service that directv offers. Last time I
checked with them about a year ago it was $500 for the dish and $60 per month.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Dvorak Sim plifed Keyboard
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Hang-Man D e c e m ber 28th, 2006, 01:13 AM

I ve o ften won dered why t h e s t a n d a r d Q W E R T Y k e y b o a r d l a y o u t was laid o u t the way it was. It looked to m e l i k e t h e m o s t
inefficient po s sible ways to layout keys. It s no t, but it turns out it s pretty close:
T h e Q W ER TY layout was des igned s o that successive k e y s t r o k e s w o u l d a l t e r n a t e s i d e s o f t h e k e y b o a r d s o a s t o a v o i d j a m s .

S o m e s o u r c e s a l s o claim t h a t t h e Q W E R T Y l a y o u t wa s d e s i g n e d to slow down typ ing spee d to f urther redu ce jam m ing. -
W ikipedia
Now that this is no longer a problem, obviously a layout with efficiency and hand fatigue as its top priority would be ideal. This
was done by Dr. Agust Dvorak who patented the Dvorak layout in 1936 (also known as the simplified keyboard). Ob viously, it
h a s n t really caught on, although it was the layout u s ed by Barbara Blackburn w h e n s h e s e t t h e 2 1 2 W PM world record for
t y p i n g s p e e d . The W iki article is here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard), and is fairly in depth. I was
wondering if anyone here had any experience with it? How hard was it to switch? W as it worth it?
If nothing else, I find the prevalence of an infe rior technology rather inte resting. People waste no tim e upgrading their VHS
players to DVD, yet this has been arou nd for 70 years a nd nobody knows what the hell it is.
ShadowMyGeekSpace D e c e m ber 28th, 2006, 05:21 AM

S o m e source s also claim that the QW ERTY layout was designed to slow d own typing speed to further reduce jamm in g.W hich it
doesn't do. I can type in both QW E R T Y a n d D V O RAK, and there is no im provem ent. I'm at ~120wpm with b oth of th e m . I n t h e
end, it's all about mu scle m emory.
I h a v e b e e n s p e n d i n g ~ 1 4 - 1 8 hours a day infront of m y com puters for the past 1 0 years, and don't experiance any fatigue at
all with m y hands, only m y eyes get tired - and that's when im u sing a CRT. I'm fine with an LCD though... who know's what'll
happen when I grow older, but for now I don't see the p oint.

f y o u n e v e r l e a r n e d t h e Q W ER T Y k e y b o a r d l a y o u t a n d h a d s t a r t e d o u t f r o m the beginning using th e Dvorak layout, I thing a
real benefit could be seen.
The "ASDFG :LKJH" hand placem ent, and the m uscle m e m ory, as mentio ned by ShadowMyGeekSpace inhib its ones ability to
easily switch from one to the other.

W ell, since the world uses the QW ERTY board, and you'd be sorely fucked if you were away from your Dvorak keyboard, why
bother?

M a y b e o n c e t h e m etric system catches on in America. It's supposed to be the standard by 1985... oh wait... Consumers would
also save $billions a year if electrical p ower was DC i n s t e a d o f A C b e c a u s e o f t h e A C p e a k s a n d s p i k e s t h a t f r y e q u i p m ent, b ut
the switch wo uld now cost $trillions. AC was easier to m ake 100 years ago, so they went with it. I am sure there are lots of
other archaic system s from the past th at linger today.
sparkchaser January 3rd, 2007, 05:50 AM

DC power was rejected because of high loss during high voltage transm ission due to overheating of the lines, and the inability
to step up/down the voltage very easily without first converting to AC. AC doesn't overheat the lines as badly as DC, especially
at high voltage, low a mperage. That's why line voltage is in the hundreds of volts and stepped down to low volts hig h am p s
n e a r y o u r h o u s e . T h a t's one archaic system that was actually adopted be cause of logic.
Now if only we could get the m etric system adopted in Am erica. I was born using ASM and just recently started using m etric
while stationed in Europe, god is it easier once you get used to it!
Hirudinea January 5th, 2007, 06:44 PM

Hey if I get a vote I want to start using 240 volts in North Am erica, but the rest of the W orld has to m ove to 60 Cycles, and
everyone has to move to Australian wall plugs and DVB TV Standard. :D
Cobalt.45 January 6th, 2007, 01:17 AM

but the rest of the W orld has to m ove to 60 Cycles
My vote is to bum p the cycles way up!:eek:
Just keep the forks out of the wall sockets.:p

My vote is to bum p the cycles way up!
Just keep the forks out of the wall sockets.
I put a paperclip in the socket when I was in grade 2 on ce and I'm just fine, well if you don't count the glowing pubes. :D
10fingers January 6th, 2007, 08:58 PM

The reason for the qwerty keyboard was to slow the typist down so the keys didn't jam on the old style m echanical typewriters.
To change over now I think would be a n i m p o s s i b l e t a s k .
The AC powe r transmission system is really the best, DC does not work in a transformer so you can't chang e the voltage or
current to whatever is needed at the point of use.
Cobalt.45 January 7th, 2007, 01:12 PM

T h e r e a r e a p plications for both AC and DC that favors one over the other, like the transm i s s i o n - a b ility of AC or the portability
of DC .
W e're still working with standa rds that were set years ago. Advancements that have been m ade since then would be so costly
to implement that it m akes them pratically im possible to utilize.
A s y s t e m d e s i g n e d t o d a y f r o m scratch wouldn't resem ble the current (no pun intended) set-up, that's for sure.
"The Grid" is one of the most vulnerab l e s y s t e m s a n d a t the same tim e , o n e o f t h e m o s t r e l i e d u p o n s y s t e ms in North
Am erica.
Back on the thread topic. Just as every technology evolves, so too will the keyboard.
There's no way that in ten years, everyone will still be hunting and pecking on som e antiquated, bulky piece of 18th. century
technology.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > NH4NO3 b o m b d e t o n a t o r
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View Full Version : NH4NO3 bomb detonator

Hi :)
I'm g o i n g t o m a k e a N H 4 N O 3 b o m b b u t I ' m no t sure if it would work and I don't want to spend mo n e y o n u s e l e s s s t u f f s .
T h e r e ' s a b o u t 8 0 g o f K C l O 4 + Al + S powder confined in a plastic tube, this tube is in the m iddle of a m etal container filled of
pure NH4NO 3 :
http://img18 2 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 1 8 2 / 5 6 9 1 / n h 4 n o 3 b q 2 . j p g
The powder will explode for sure, but, will the NH4NO3 e x p l o d e t o o ?
Thank you :)
SafetyLast D e c e m ber 28th, 2006, 07:04 PM

Oh god.
Not another one.:eek :
Y o u s h o u l d w a v e a l i t t l e f l a g t h a t s a y s " p l e a s e b a n m e n b k " o r s o m e t h i n g s i m ilar. (Oh wait, I forgot. This is the water cooler,
K e W l it up hom bre!)
A little research could have allowed you to avoid asking questions like
"will this work?" or "how much lem on juice for AP?" By now you should know not to use that "b" word as "bom bs" are large
m etal things dropped by airplanes.
So let m e g e t this straight, you want to:
1. m a k e s o m e sort of flash powder
2. put it into a tube
3. put wires into it
4. put it into a can of "pure NH4NO3" (whatever that me ans, I'm assuming it's prilled AN)
5. set off the K3\/\/L B0/\/\Z
:D And the picture m akes it all the more hillarious.

In short no, it will not work. You will get a boom from your flash and a lot of scattered AN, but there's not a chance that you will
set off straight AN with flash powder.
Even If it was m ixed with a powerful reducing fuel I'd still doubt it. ANNM "m ight" be able to be detonated this way.. But the
only sure way to fully detonate a blasting agent such as AN is when it has 6% fuel added to it and you use a cap and a booster
( a n d n o , y o u cannot buy blasting caps at a grocery store)

I searched but I didn't find an ything :p
Sorry for the word "bomb", I'll use "explosive" instead, now ^^
Pure NH4NO 3 is 99% NH4NO3 powder, not the fertilizer :p
Thanks for answering m y question :)
SafetyLast D e c e m ber 28th, 2006, 07:57 PM

Do a search on "Cap sensitive m ixes" or "APAN" or "KIFE".
You'll find a ton of inform ation on AN binaries.
Powdered AN m ust be thoroug hly dried then m ixed with a sensitizer. It typically detonates in colum ns 2" wide when loaded at a
density of about 0.95 g/cc, not m uch higher or it becom e s d e a d p r e s s e d a n d n o t e v e n t h e h a n d o f g o d c a n d e t o n a t e i t . A g o o d
r e a d f o r b e g i n n e r s i s B e n s o n ' s " H o m e m ade C4, a recipe for survival" which is not C4 at all, but ANNM or "kinepak". I don't
really care fo r it that m uch, I spent $60 on it expecting that it dealt with sem tex or other plastique only to find it was an AN
bina ry. Good info on drying the AN though, I never thou ght of using denatured alcohol before I read it.:rolleyes:

Ok, I searched with these keywords an d I found some interresting topics, I think I'll use n itrocellulose instead of fla sh powder
(it should work) and I'll sensitize AN with paraffin oil or fuel oil.
Thank you for helping :)
I'd like to he lp others too but my skills are too limited :( but I'll try ^^

Yeah, because nitrocellulose detonates when you light it...
I could tell you exactly what to do to set off your AN and all you need to do is take one trip to the local and follow som e very
sim ple directions... But I'm not going to. You can find out everything you need to know by reading existing posts not starting a
lam e n e w o n e .
I also strongly advise y o u t o f i n d a n e w h o b b y a s o p p o s e d t o t h i s o n e , p e o p l e l i k e y o u t e n d t o l o s e f i n g e r s q u i c k l y b e c a u s e

they fail to understan d the principles o f what th ey are working with, you probably don't even understand the concept of
d e t o n a t i o n . I a m not trying to be mean(at least I don't have to try very hard) but I want you to realize that we are not here to
teach some kid how to blow his hands off, this site is about science, and a HU GE part of science is RESEAR CH. Now, if you wish
to continue in this hobby, go get to som e research and the answers to all of your questions will become clear :).

I did a lot of searches, I found some ways to detonate ANFO, but I just realized that there is no safe way to detonate it, I hate
AP, too sensitive, to m any people get killed by AP...
W hile searching I also read th at flash powder is very unstable above 10g , is that right ? because I detonated about 100g of
flash powder in a plastic tube withtout taking care of it, it didn't seem unstable...
I'm trying to learn m o r e a n d m o r e b y r e a d i n g t h e f o r u m but all I can read is questions about adva nced stuffs that doesn't help
m e, I'd like to start learning the beginning but I can't access the FTP or else...
:(
Until you've dem onstrated the ability to find an swers on your own, a willingness to contribute usefu l inform ation, and a sincere
desire to learn (and not just g et spoonfed), you never will get FTP access.
The answers to ALL the questions you've asked have already been discussed here many times before, and it's all still here.
You just need to find it O N YO UR O WN.
Read the relevant sections, starting from the oldest threads, and work your way through to the present. By then, you won't
n e e d t o a s k u s f o r t h e a n s w e r s , b e c a u s e y o u ' l l h a v e f o u n d t h e m on your own. :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > ATF Explosive Regulations?
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CecilBDemented D e c e m ber 29th, 2006, 02:18 PM

Ive searched Alcohol Tabacco and Firearms and nothing came up at all, which suprised m e. But what I was wondering is what I
h a v e t o d o t o m a k e e x p l o s i v e s legally on top of state regs? W h e r e d o i f i n d t h i s i n f o ? T h a n k s
Big Mac D e c e m ber 29th, 2006, 03:16 PM

You can't. That's the trick they use. Ba ck when they had m a c h i n e g u n s t a m p s , y o u h a d t o h a v e t h e m a c h i n e g u n f i r s t t o g e t
the stamp but that would m ean you illegally po s s e s s e d a m achine gun to begin with. You could possibly ge t dynamite if you
h a v e a m ineral that you are trying to harvest and prove that you are not some loony out to blow shit up. But that will cause a
lot of scrutiny given the clim a t e p o s t - 9 / 1 1 .

If your search skills a re as cra ppy as your gram mar skills O BVIO USLY are, it's no wonder you can't find anything.

Perhaps he can't find tabacco becoz he's under 16^H^H18?
Matt_Ladder January 2nd, 2007, 04:30 PM

They are trying to lim it chemicals though (like oxidizers and such), or should I sa y t h e C o n s u m er Product Safety Co m m ission
is re gulating things, united nu clear i believe got hit, which is disappointing.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > O uch that HURTS. Flash bites
back
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Hemisync D e c e m ber 29th, 2006, 09:07 PM

Here is a post on a fireworks forum with nice clear photos, of som e one who
although he is full tra ined, ignored his own com m o n s e n s e .
Heavy fire co at, face m ask, th e whole shebang of saftey gear but choose not to wear his fire gloves.
H i s s a f e t y e q u i p m ent helped, but he was not wearing proper gloves, so an accident with flash did a num b e r o n h i s h a n d s .
Nasty Burns.
For those that are so inclined you may be interested in also joining this pyrotechnics site.
http://www.apcforum .net/forums/index .php?showtopic=836

Ouch...but it could ha ve been a LOT worse. To be honest, I'd consider gloves to be far m ore im portant than a m a s s i v e h e l m et-
s a f e ty glasses would probably have do ne the job, right?

Considering how burn t the visor was, I'd say safety-glasses wouldn't have done shit to pre vent his face from being burnt to a
sim iliar crispiness as his hands, and the intense heat-flux likely would have burned his eyes as well. :(
W ould you rather have burnt hands, or a face like Freddy Kruger?

I'm so scared right now guys. I'm never touching anything explo sive again.
tmp D e c e m ber 30th, 2006, 09:29 PM

Match, by his own adm ission, the problem was lack of safety.
Personally, I think he 's dam n lucky that's all th a t h a p p e n e d .
I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n m uch worse.
knowledgehungry D e c e m ber 31st, 2006 , 01:30 AM

This guy got off pretty easy Match. He still has use of all body parts and has no trouble with the law.
He was stupid for placing another device where one had been se tt off so recently.
Cobalt.45 D e c e m ber 31st, 2006 , 04:06 AM

Hey Match, that guy got off relatively easy. Take a look at this (from stupid939's site- I don't know where he got them ): http:/
/ m e m bers.shaw.ca/gryphon223/consequences.htm l
mike16 D e c e m ber 31st, 2006 , 10:40 AM

I think its go od to see pictures like that every now and then, because it reminds you in a very graphic way, what can happed to
you if you becom e careless in this hobby.
Those pictures in the link Cobalt.45 provided slightly pu t me off working with explosives a bit, but from now on when I do use
explosives I will be very, very careful.
10fingers January 1st, 2007, 12:24 PM

Ouch, that lo o k s p a i n ful. I feel sorry for the guy.
I had to laugh a little though about his com m e n t " g o o d t h i n g I h a d a p e r m i t , c o m es in ha ndy at the hospital." And the Bomb
Squad T-shirt, that was good.
stupid939 January 3rd, 2007, 05:13 PM

I just saw this post and was going to post the link that Cobalt45 provided. The last one is the worst. Just re ad what he did, I
stop p e d m a k i n g p i p e b o m bs a long time ago, and you will see why.
BTW Cobalt, I saw the link on some fireworks site.
Lewis January 5th, 2007, 04:47 PM

He complains about the difficulty of typing with only 2 thumbs at the end of his post...
How many th umbs did he have to begin with? :p

I just saw this post and was going to post the link that Cobalt45 provided. The last one is the worst.
Yeah, but wh at would rather lose all yo ur limbs and functioning for the rest of you r life, or be blown into lots of tiny pieces? :p
wetpowder January 5th, 2007, 10:00 PM

He was high on stupid, I guess. O f course there is no la w against stupid.
Cancer January 18th , 2007, 12:14 AM

I was working in an electrical meter base in May of '06, rem oving hot wires from a distribution block. I hadn't killed any power
because it was at a casino and they threw a fucking fit everytim e power was disturbed. I was halfway done when m y h e l p e r s a i d
s o m ething to m e. I turned to look at him a n d m y screwdriver that was touching a hot phase bumped the ground. The arc fla sh
went across all the phases and the gro u n d . I h a d 1 s t , 2 n d , a n d 3 r d d e g r e e b u r n s o n m y h a n d s a n d a r m s. These are just a
couple of the pictures.
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com /index.cfm?fuseaction=viewIm age&friendID=19899389&im a g e I D = 7 9 3 1 9 6 2 3 8
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com /index.cfm?fuseaction=viewIm age&friendID=19899389&im a g e I D = 7 9 3 1 9 5 8 6 7
tiac03 January 19th , 2007, 01:10 AM

Ha I saw the post referenced by the victim on lockpickin g 101. (he is a m ember on that site too...) Guess he wont be picking
locks for a while...
Either way I'd rather be blown up than burned looks worse but looks less painful at the sam e tim e .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Saddam is dead
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I find ironic that the US government, currently engaged in a bloody guerilla war with iraq insurgents, has had their Iraqi proxies
hang the only man who's ever managed to keep the country together and at (relative) peace.
:rolleyes:
We should have given the whole mess back to the man and left the whole mess to him for clean-up. :)

I have no idea, all I care about is when the hanging video hits you-tube.
jimmyboy1 December 30th, 2006, 11:10 PM

There is already a pic of his dead body (looks like a video capture) here..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_of_Saddam_Hussein
Iraqis must love to see death all the time - they always post this in record time to the AL-Ansar website. Here are some more
details from the execution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_of_Saddam_Hussein
mochte December 30th, 2006, 11:20 PM

Decent grainy quality from a cell phone camera:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7532034279766935521
God it gives me the warm and fuzzies.
Gatsby December 31st, 2006, 12:44 AM

We hung him for killing people with some of the very weapons we gave him to fight a proxy war with Iran.
DONMAN December 31st, 2006, 01:07 AM

Although I think america is going to have a hard time installing a working government, This man was terrible, and I think he
had it coming to him. Just hearing about about the thousands he killed, he needed killing. Some times I think iraq only
understands the butt of a gun. Its going to be a long and very involved process and I don't think a just government will ever
be ascertainable there.
Cobalt.45 December 31st, 2006, 03:31 AM

Seeing as we've reaped absolutely no benefit from "freeing" these ingrates, not even so much as a fuck you, I believe it
should go into the files with other recent and not so recent fuck-ups, like: {insert your favorite HERE}.
You're right- they don't understand anything except martial law, enforced by an iron handed ruler with no qualms about doing
what's necessary to keep the shit hole livable.
Maybe we would've had a better result had we leveled Iran instead.:p
Or better yet, stayed the fuck home and wallow in the (once plentiful) surplus left from the dealings of the Clinton years.
Oh, yea, the thread. Saddam's dead.:eek:
Dead my ass.:rolleyes: We'll be fighting him for the next ten years, at least.
10fingers December 31st, 2006, 10:38 AM

I never believed the whole WMD and roots of terrorism reasons for going into Iraq. I did have hope that the removal of
Saddam would give Iraqi's the opportunity to a better future, well I have lost that hope. Now I think that he had to be as
ruthless as he was to hold that country somewhat together.
nbk2000 December 31st, 2006, 01:39 PM

The only thing muds understand is force, and a LOT of it.
That's why these 3rd world countries are all ran by dictators, because only dictators can use a sufficient level of force to keep
things under control.
Chopper December 31st, 2006, 06:10 PM

[rant=on]
Yup - force, force, and a little more force for good measure. The nice guy isn't usually the one with all the power and ability to
get things done in prison.
I forget the exact words now, but I read something a while ago I found interesting - the basic gist of it was that the Iraqis
confuse freedom with anarchy. Having been so long (for what reason is another matter) without any real semblance of fredom,
many seem unable or unwilling to realise that freedom means the right to do as one chooses, SO LONG as it does not
interfere with the fredom of others.
On a secondary note, for fuck's sake! The only people allowed into the execution room were purported to be officials and a
cleric. Yet _still_ there was (a) The taunting of the prisoner by some of those present, (b) A mobile-phone video recorded of
the event and (c) the poor bastard wasn't even allowed to finish his final words - he only had 5 to go to finish his sentence.
That said, I do think he was far from somebody I'd delight in knowing. You just gotta admit that the whole affair - right from
the apparent failure of the mission to get Osama in Afganistan stinks like shit.
Treating a tyrant with more (a little more) humanity than he extended to others does not make you a nice guy. Indeed world
opinion echoes my own sentiments on the matter, in that he deserved punishment - arguably the death penalty was
appropriate (though I'll only condone death as a action taken in the heat of the moment). It was however, the way the whole
affair was conducted that's fucked up.
Fancy that, stating that it was the death penalty, and not justice(which may very well have included the death penalty) that was
being sought right from the onset of the trial. I always thought judges and juries were there to judge and determine
appropriate punishment, not to rubber-stamp a decision made above their heads.:rolleyes:
Should've just given the marines a reason to drop that grenade into his hiding hole in the first place.
[rant=off]
Frunk December 31st, 2006, 07:30 PM

Being in Canada I am amazed that ''justice'' actually did something.
If Saddam had been caught here he would have 10 years of prison time and he could get out after three if he didn't act like a
jackass in jail. The actual trial would have taken months.
Whatever, I'm not for the War in Iraq, but that guy got what was coming to him. I just like how Iraqis don't play around with
''respectful'' executions and just hang the bastard while taunting him. He was a smartass at the tribunal, not so much now.
Of course, this isn't going to help the situation in Iraq in any way, shape or form. Just let them fight amongst themselves.
Iran has nukes but no way to deliver them to North America... I'll just wait and see, thank you.
Jacob Kell December 31st, 2006, 09:14 PM

Extreme authoritarianism, hatred for life and pleasure, feelings of inferiority and humiliation, and group narcissism are the
main psychic traits that define the Middle East people, and as such they are the results of sadistic and traumatic child-rearing
practices, specific for that region. There have been numerous studies on that subject. So I wouldn't say they desire anarchy,
they just want more charismatic leaders and more interpersonal authority.
c.Tech January 1st, 2007, 07:13 AM

S a d a m s d eath was need ed we all know that, the fucker deserved it as lots of you have already mentioned, though th e
victory attitude it gives to the western nations that they have done some good makes me sick to my stomach. Getting Sadam
only caused more problems than the country already had.
But the deaths in the Iraq war will be nothing matched to the future Nazi Germany style world dictatorship we are heading into
now.
On the topic of nukes.

Iran has nukes
:confused: Last time I heard it was going to take Iran approx. 20 years to have a working nuke.
simply RED January 1st, 2007, 11:47 AM

Who killed more Iraquis : Saddam or Bush?

Probably Bush, but would you rather live in a country run by Bush or Saddam? At least we know that Bush will gone soon.
The Iraqi's were handed a chance for a better life on a silver platter and in typical Raghead fashion they took a big healthy
crap on it. The main reason they are still fighting and dying is because of their culture, religion and stupidity. They are killing
each other.
simply RED January 1st, 2007, 01:10 PM

"would you rather live in a country run by Bush or Saddam?"
Difficult choice, like by Stalin of by Hitler? But indeed Saddam deserved it!
Bush would be gone, but could his style of rulling be gone too?
Frunk January 1st, 2007, 01:11 PM

On the topic of nukes.
:confused: Last time I heard it was going to take Iran approx. 20 years to have a working nuke.
It's just speculation, but with:

-Friends like Russia and North Korea having nukes,
-The Internet,
- A few scientists and some Uranium,
I don't get how a nation like Iran would take 20 years to get the bomb. It didn't take the USA that much time and at that time
the method to make a nuke wasn't known or posted on the internet.
knowledgehungry January 1st, 2007, 02:01 PM

Simply RED you obviously do not live in the United States,the comparison of Bush to Saddam is laughable, so laughable that I
don't even know where to start arguing with it.
As to who has killed more Iraqi's I am sure that Saddam killed more Iraqi civilians than the United States military has, but if
you total the number that have died since the invasion including those who have been killed by insurgents the numbers may
be closer.

Simply Red, you avoided the question by asking another question.
I hate Bush and I think most Americans feel the same. His approval ratings are amongst the lowest of any US president. How
he ever got elected is something I will never understand.There is a serious flaw in the Presidential election process in this
country.
simply RED January 1st, 2007, 07:09 PM

Yes, they are different!
Saddam was applying his will, no matter how bad it may be.
Bush is applying the will of the big capitalists, no matter how bad it may be.
In both cases the oppressive forces of the countries are used to complete these tasks.
Non of them did bad things because of pure evil. Saddam (he was not that stupid) tried to sustain his regime. Bush tried (and
did) to caputure Saddam's oil (he had direct orders to do so).
Saddam deserves more respect by trying to think on his own :D
But it is all the same in fact: somebody's will applied blindly without thinking of the consequences.
oh...
Happy New Year and fuck them both!
DONMAN January 1st, 2007, 08:32 PM

I think it's funny how their appeals court works. In America the outcome of an appeals court is always better or the same for a
convict, but in their appeals court it could go both ways. So Saddam goes to appeals court and then instead of life in prison
they say, "No, thats not good enough." so they sentenced him to death. I just find that so ironically amusing.

Basic maths:
3000 US servicemen dead, at least 10 times that in Iraqi's of all descriptions by Bush's (very conservative and now out of
date) numbers. (For comparison, in Gulf War 1, the USA claimed 20,000 dead Iraqis. It lasted about 2 weeks!)
The US helped get him into power over 30 years ago. He gained most of his power in 1972 to 1976, becoming ruler in July
1979.
Figures are scare, but estimates of 300,000 deaths over the 23 to 27 years are claimed, but given that he was tried for killing
182,000 Kurds it probably isn't too far away. So, run the maths.
Saddam was in power for 276 months. This gives around 1000 dead per month, excluding the Iran-Iraq war)
Bush has 'controlled' Iraqi for about 45 months and with 30,000 dead Iraqis minimum, that's about 666 dead a month.
If we include the less partisan figures for Iraqi non-military deaths (which aren't even counted) and are believed to be around
2667 for *just* September 2006, and call that an average, we can see that the death toll under Bush was far, far higher than
under Saddam.
See http://www.lowerdown.com/2006/10/11/httpwwwthelancetcomwebfilesimagesjournalslancets01 40673606694919pdf/
However, unless the US is deposed (perhaps if God tells GW to do it during their morning chat?) as leader of the nearly-free
world, he will never be arraigned. Sadly.
c.Tech January 2nd, 2007, 02:27 AM

At least we know that Bush will gone soon.
W o u l d n t be too sure about that, all Ame rica needs now is a national em ergency (e g. terror attack) to give FEMA control,
station troops on the streets, take control of all schools, gas stations, grocery stores ect. (there are orders to do that) and
ultimately turn America into a fully fledged dictatorship.
During that national emergency elections will also be suspended.
His approval ratings are amongst the lowest of any US president. How he ever got elected is something I will never
understand.There is a serious flaw in the Presidential election process in this country.
You may want to check out the documenta ry American Dictatorship by Alex Jones (goo gle video) somewh ere after the
bohemian grove stuff it goes into how easy the elections are to be rigged with the new electronic voting machines leaving no
paper trail.
People may think "That could never happen in America" but it has happened in America before why not again?
T h e n when you have the most p owerful country in the world run by one power hung ry dictator (Bu$h) it doesn t take a genius
to figure what is going to happen next.
knowledgehungry January 2nd, 2007, 02:29 AM

One slight problem with your figures Jack's Complete, there is no way of telling how many Iraqi deaths were caused by U.S.
troops as opposed to Iraqi on Iraqi violence.
Obviously one can say it doesn't really matter as it is still indirectly Bush's fault, but if we are going with indirect deaths then
we have to count the half million children Saddam starved to death by misusing the Food for Oil program.
Corona January 2nd, 2007, 03:11 AM

You can argue forever who killed how many and come up with different figures and definitions every time. Specially when one
considers how British special forces were caught red handed planting bombs to create "Iraqi on Iraqi" violence... such things
are done in every conflict, it's nothing remarkable... only someone moronically naive would refuse to believe that Americans/
British never used false-flag ops to further violence between enemy factions (it would be stupid not to do so to take advantage
of differences between various groups). And why have Americans been so good at looking the other way whenever the Shia
militias arm themselves to the teeth?
Fact is... the only fact that really matters for the future... is that the US gave Iraq to Iran as a gift. Because of sheer
incompetence? Or is this some secret policy mere mortals can't understand?
Smart... very smart. Talk about hitting your thumb with a hammer.
Killing a has-been like Saddam was only a feeble attempt to retrieve some credibility. I do agree however with the gist of the
arguments above that the man was a turd. Just like Chimpy is a turd and Osama is a turd.... they're all turds. So it isn't like
the skies have fallen if there is one less turd in this world. It might even be a good thing.
Chopper January 2nd, 2007, 05:34 AM

>>During that national emergency elections will also be suspended.
It's enough to make you laugh isn't it?

"There's no way we can hold elections at such a time of conflict, the results will be skewed"
How is the same not true of the shit-hole that is Iraq?
Hey, I'm all for cops - they only fuck me up when I deserve it and am stupid enough to draw attention to myself, but you can't
put yourself up there as the world's policeman and then be selective about where and how you administer justice.
Also, sure Saddam's actions under the Oil For Food program did result in the deaths of 1/2 a million kids. But unless we
learned of each and every one of these after the ceasation of the program, we're just as much to blame for being pigheaded
and expecting his own (by all acounts, terrified) populace to rise up against him and demand he play ball. On one hand we
call him a dictator and on the other we expect the sheeple there to tell him how to run the place. Yeah fucking right!
If the whole affair wasn't so serious it would be entirely laughable that we in the west hold the moral high-ground in this issue.
It's like a bunch of schoolyard bullies fighting it out before the victor comes and tells the class what an upstanding citizen he is
and that he was only fighting with the other bully "for the good of others"
I'm absolutely not a lawer. Just wondering, anybody know if it's usuall to execute a person who's still facing charges, charges
that are arguably far more serious that the ones for which he was condemned? Be a shame if retribution got in the way of a
fuller form of justice..
10fingers January 2nd, 2007, 06:58 AM

I think that it is customary to prosecute on all charges but if you were to do that with Saddam he would probably die of old age
before hanging. How many death sentences do you need? Also, maybe the decision to hang asap was in the hope that it
would help quell the insurgency/civil war.

Certainly, one execution will do the trick.
I'm approaching this from a philosophical point of view. In that it's somewhat akin to pardoning somebody after they've been
wrongfully executed. The event has already irrevocably changed the future, but it's important that the record of history be
correct.
I guess all we can hope for with regards to the prick is that he is found guilty in absentia for the other charges before him at
the time of his death. For nobody's sake but those of his victims and their families. Though, in my country at least, all
impending court cases are cancelled in the event of the death of the accused.
I'd personally have found no more problem with the situation if he was walked out the back door of the courtroom after the
final rejection of his appeal and executed on the spot.
To avoid becoming tyrants ourselves, we need to respect people and due process, regardless of who they are, and how much
of a cunt we take them to be. That is a true sign of civilized people, IMHO.
ShadowMyGeekSpace January 2nd, 2007, 12:46 PM

To avoid becoming tyrants ourselves, we need to respect people and due process, regardless of who they are, and how much
of a cunt we take them to be. That is a true sign of civilized people, IMHO.That's how the system should work, but
unfortunitely not how it does work. Only those with money can afford a defense, and only those with friends in high places can
get off scotch free... the rest of society is destroyed by presumed guilt, and media spin.
Chopper January 2nd, 2007, 01:38 PM

Ex-fucking-zactly!!
That was precisely one of the things that leads me to believe it's a fucking joke that we take the moral high-ground. The
people that are able avoid poor-man's justice are the very same ones that have deprived the Iraquis of it in this case.
We all know he was responsible for the deaths of too many people to count, but that may never be commited to paper as
judicial fact - merely as being widely accepted, that's hardly a good thing.
Take for example Augusto Pinochet... If he was 15 years younger would he have been punished as robustly?? House arrest
indeed! What's age got to do with it really, anyway?
Yeah, we may live in western society - but we sure aint civilized. Even if we don't live in rags in the desert, in my mind being
civilized is about the mind, not the living circumstances. We may appear or even in fact, be less uncivilized, but we're still a
long way from being civilized, I reckon.
simply RED January 2nd, 2007, 06:51 PM

Only people who believe in the things spoken here - can burry Saddam forever...
atlas#11 January 2nd, 2007, 07:37 PM

The man did what any one of us would have done in his situation. He grew up in hell, how can you blame him for growing into
a demon? Thats not to say we arn't justified in killing him, he killed alot of people that may or may not have deserved it,
(they probably did). Personaly I could probably justify killing the majority of the human population of earth for the things were
responsible for.
We pay for the gas no matter how high the prices go. You blame *them* for the high prices when it's you who drives the cars
everyday. You wonder why your broke when you buy a new car every five years. You spend three grand on a 54 inch tv and put
15 food ceelings in your house and wonder why it costs so much to heat it. People just keep playing along with it, NBK figured
it out, (read his rants on rent). Socoiety *meaning you included* pays for shit they don't need every single day and the smart
ones *you would do it too* capitalize on it and take advantage of everything they can to get some cash. That may or may not
be human nature but it doesn't matter, thats the way our economy works. Goods are built to last a certian legnth of time and
then stop so you have to buy a new one, if they worked for ever you would only sell so many and then business would stop.
You would go out of business.
It's kind of a backwards socoiety, people "benifit" by selling junk rather than respectable goods. You can only stay in business
if your service must be repeated. Whats the benifit of fixing a flat tire right when you can duct tape it and charge an extra 30
bucks when it breaks tomarrow? The goal of the system seems not to promote the individual, rather those smart enough to
get in to positions of leadership. You are expected to keep yourself impoverished (not exactly poverty, you have nice things to
keep you comfortable) for the good of the economy. Oh yeah, sadam is dead, did it change anything for you? Is your life any
better? Do you really expect the oil prices to drop just because our corporations own the oil rather than the arabs? You think
Saddam was bad, look at Africa, massacres happen all the time, genocide happens all the time, were only in Iraq because of
the money. You think our government cares about the kurds? Saddam is only being punished because the Americans *thats
you:) * demand "justice" for all the people he killed. If the media didn't bring the slaughter to your attention then you
wouldn't give a rats ass about the towel heads.
And for those of you who hate Bush, I find it laughable that you even believe he has any control over anything. No one is that
ignorant, no one is that bad with publicity. Bush is pressured into every descision he makes by the real rulers of the country,
the ceo's and company owners. Think of it like a hierarchy, it goes: business to corporation to government. They're just a
giant corporation that has to listen to it's investors. Exactly who is running the show is a mystery, but you can bet your ass
Bush is falling so they can put some other pupet into power. The whole republican vs. democrat thing is a joke, call me a
conspiracy theorist all you want but the senators benifit nothing from being devided on issues, keeping the sheeple happy and
the money flowing is their only concern. If it makes them more money or it keeps the people happy then it goes. It's all just
an act. Just you wait till we get some "liberal" in "power" next year and lose our guns, until then, just keep spending money
and watching fox.
Gatsby January 2nd, 2007, 08:10 PM

Is it possible that the execution video was faked? It shows him falling through the platform and for a moment you see the
rope taunt, then the next few seconds you don't see his body at all. The next scene is of his face for a few grainy moments. It
looked like one of the low budget films that had to use editing to get the desired effect.
This may be complete lunacy, but could that be possible?
And if so then why?
akinrog January 2nd, 2007, 10:13 PM

Just hearing about about the thousands he killed, he needed killing. Some times I think iraq only understands the butt of a
gun. Its going to be a long and very involved process and I don't think a just government will ever be ascertainable there.
While he was a dictator like any other rich theocratic Arab country in the region (except he is not a religious scumbag), he did
not kill thousands of peoples, that's one of the lies told by the Bush et al., i.e. the New World Order Guys. His sentence
judgement consisted of charges of killing 148 civilians but being tried for the supposed Kurdish Massacre in Halapja.
And the claim that Iraqis were given a chance to live decently is a total deception, since the current government in Iraq is a
puppet government which just like the Saudis and other pro-US and religious extremist Arab countries shall give concessions
to US oil tycoons on a silver platter. That's why they are chosen for government.
And most probably the current scheme by the New World Order guys shall backfire and the Country shall succumb into a
sectarian war and finally become a Islamic Fundamentalist stronghold like Afghanistan.
It's interesting that people living several thousand kms from Iraq and never set a foot in the area have very concrete
convictions about Saddam and his supposed atrocities. Atrocities committed by pro-US Arab islamic countries under Sheriah
(Islamic Laws) in the region are a few more folds than that of Saddam. Saddam was at least a secular guy not allowing those
Islamic fundamentalists.
Do you think those Kurds were innocent lambs? They were armed to teeth and actively fighting for getting their Kurdistan,
backed by the (in)famous three letter agency. In pursuance of their political aims, they both killed and got killed. No
massacre, no genocide or something like that. The bastards are lying outright!... :mad: Regards.
knowledgehungry January 3rd, 2007, 12:28 AM

Akinrog, the figures for the 300,000 killed by Saddam comes from a rather leftist group called Human Rights Watch. This
group has nothing to do with Bush and those figures were stated long before Bush even came to power.
The video was certainly not faked, I watched official footage and the cell phone footage and everything up until the actual
hanging is the same, the reason he dissappears is because he drops into a trap door in the floor and the camera didn't follow
quickly enough, and the floor blocked the view of his body IIRC.
DONMAN January 3rd, 2007, 02:06 AM

And most probably the current scheme by the New World Order guys
I don't like the bush administration but, I don't buy into the whole new world order horse shit. I am sorry but the NWO is a
myth. Its a total joke. If you really believe in that then I have a bridge in London to sell you.:rolleyes:
This guy and his sons where absolute maniacs. His sons would see a women, kill her husband, rape her and, then kill her.
Saddam used to take his sons and make them watch as he tortured people. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-
04-13-saddam-secrets-usat_x.htm)
Sure..... he kept Iraq under control but at the cost of how many lives? The kurd massacre was inhumane. These people where
oppressed, they where innocent. Most of the people killed weren't even rebels.
A larger amount of the people America kills are related or affiliated with terrorist activity. I do not advocate this war, but now
that we are in the middle east we have to stay till the job is done or, till america rots from the inside out.
10fingers January 3rd, 2007, 02:14 AM

Let's assume that the whole Iraq war was a grab at there oil. You could argue endlessly about this. So what? Is the world
economy better or worse off if the oil of Iraq was in US control? I would think better. Is it right, no.
What good came of the Iraq oil revenues under Saddam? Not much. He spent it on weapons and the wars with Iran and
Kuwait. The people lived in squallor while he lived in opulent mansions.
If I was an Iraqi and given the choice of living under foreign occupation with a chance for a better life or living under a brutal
dictator with no hope for the future, the choice is easy.
The real problem with Iraq is not the US, Bush, Saddam, the oil conspiracy, the problem is that it is full of Iraqis.
c.Tech January 3rd, 2007, 03:33 AM

And for those of you who hate Bush, I find it laughable that you even believe he has any control over anything. No one is that
ignorant, no one is that bad with publicity.
I disagree, Bush is turning into a nazi like dictatorship, first it starts with the false flag operation (9/11), then power is gained
b y prote cting the people , finally he ge ts tota l control and th ere is no way to stop him with out civil un rest, riots, bombings and
other such anarchist acts which will send the country into ruin.
If you think Bush isn t doing it for control why does the laws he p asses give control and allow him to execute anybo dy who is
claimed an enemy combatant (and that could be ANYBODY)? Or the su rveillance he is puttin g onto the civil pop ulation using
faked terrorism, or the fake threats of terror, or the near martial law power he can enforce? I could go on for ages but the list
is endless.
Those powers don t aid the bu sine sses.
Just remember his jus t controlling America, he isn t the one beh ind the new wo rld ord er, just a contributor.
And most probably the current scheme by the New World Order guys shall backfire and the Country shall succumb into a
sectarian war and finally become a Islamic Fundamentalist stronghold like Afghanistan.
Lets hope so, apart for the Islamic bit.
akinrog January 3rd, 2007, 09:08 AM

I don't like the bush administration but, I don't buy into the whole new world order horse shit. I am sorry but the NWO is a
myth. Its a total joke. If you really believe in that then I have a bridge in London to sell you.:rolleyes:
I don't exactly believe it, but I believe it's a possibility since there are many secret societies, members of which are all rich and
influential, capable of doing many things.
This guy and his sons where absolute maniacs. His sons would see a women, kill her husband, rape her and, then kill her.
Saddam used to take his sons and make them watch as he tortured people. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-
04-13-saddam-secrets-usat_x.htm)
The same is also valid for other rich Arab countries. Do you think US' loyal and faithful good sheikhs in Arab countries have
only four women as their legal wifes to screw? Of course not. They also do every possible thing to get a woman if they intend
to, with one exception that such thing (even if horrible) shall not be covered by Western media since those sheikhs are good
tyrants who do not harm US interests.
Sure..... he kept Iraq under control but at the cost of how many lives? The kurd massacre was inhumane. These people where
oppressed, they where innocent. Most of the people killed weren't even rebels.
If I were in your boots, I would be very careful about the news you see on your media. Kurds had not been, were not and are
not INNOCENT. Apart from their atrocities conducted in Iraq those rats are infiltrating into my country and killed more than
35,000 officers and a few more folds of innocent civilians (who are mostly Kurdish people who opposed their Kurdistan dreams
and whom they are calling as their people). So don't buy the bullshit that the Kurds were innocent because they are not.
Kurdish people are primitively tribalistic people meaning that if their clan chief decides something all his serfs comply with it. I
mean Kurdish people chose to actively fight not only against the government(s) in region but also start killing all non-kurds
and kurds who are opposing their Kurdistan aims. They are currently conducting some sort of ethnic cleansing for establishing
their terra ultima, called Kurdistan by the help of coalition forces in Iraq.
However, instead of bearing consequences of fighting (which is killing and getting killed), just like a man should do, they go
on their knees before their western masters and start whining like bitches "Saddam is killing us" and putting many
exagerations to the story as if Saddam started killing them while they are unarmed in the Nazi fashion, which is a total lie.
Since Kurdish movement involves my country's interest, we are constantly watching the Northern Iraq with a army formation at
the border. The bastards are forcing all non-Kurdish people to leave the area and if they refuse they kill them.
At the best rate, when invaders are gone, Kurdish people shall have their long propagandized lie, i.e. massacre as a reality
finally, because triason is never forgiven nor forgotton in any country on the surface of the earth. Regards.
Maitreya January 3rd, 2007, 09:43 AM

We must learn to deal with things in a non-violent manner. The idea of reciprocity as justification for social duty to create an
equal society does not seem to be working these days. Violence against an enemy because he or she attacked you is often
not the best justification for attacking the attacker. Such actions seem primitive and uncivilized. Today's societies have
become civilized as they've learned psychology, philosophy, sociology, and political science. However, people seem to forget
all of it at the drop of a hat.
I disagree, Bush is turning into a nazi like dictatorship, first it starts with the false flag operation (9/11), then power is gained
by protecting the people, finally he gets total control and there is no way to stop him without civil unrest, riots, bombings and
other such anarchist acts which will send the country into ruin.
Yes, George W. Bush does seem to be quite the social engineer. I've been noticing this more and more as time has passed.
However, he will be out of office soon enough.
Bush is a social engineer as Saddam was. International politics seem to be a large mind game. Some people can't play the
game, so they destroy the enemy as a unlearned child would destroy an enemy because he or she does not know how to
correctly play the game.
I believe the Israelis will procrastinate endlessly and that it may well take the emergence of someone strong to bring about
reconciliation.
Alexires January 5th, 2007, 01:25 AM

Maitreya - In a perfect world, that would work. Non-violence would be the answer, and everyone would share everything so that
no one is left out.
Welcome to the real world.
You need to be violent in this world. You need to hurt, kill, maim to get what you want.
If someone attacks you and you do not retaliate, you will be destroyed. It extends from the base of our society, through
school to the highest reaches of "civilization" just with a thicker and thicker veneer of bullshit on top. See here (http://
www.thepaincomics.com/weekly020123.htm) to get the idea.
In this world you are either a sheeple who simply follows the disguised commands of the corporate gods, someone who tries to
escape the system and create a utopia for yourself (in most cases fail) or you use the system to your advantage. You sit
outside the system, but use the base elements of human nature to further your own gains.
The only thing that distinguishes you from the CEO's sitting in the cushy chairs and making more money than they can ever
spend in a lifetime is your sphere of influence, and that you know when to stop.
You need to keep site of your goal and not confuse it with money. You need to do what you have to to get what you need to
attain your life's desire and no more.
Remember RTPB 6. Greed Kills.
inventorgp January 5th, 2007, 08:19 AM

Alexries, referring to perfect world, I will use movies as an example. In the movie Equilibrium people injected them selves with
a drug daily to prevent the brain from feeling emotions. This was actually forced upon by the government.
Or kinda like in Serenity where the government were adding chemicals to the air to calm the anger in humans?
Even then they still had problems.

Gotta love The WarNerd... http://www.exile.ru/2006-December-29/war_nerd_eulogy_saddam.html
tiac03 January 5th, 2007, 02:51 PM

Honnestly after the Iraqi's told the US to fuck off after they caught saddam, I'd have given the country back to him. "Here you
can have it but don't piss us off or we will level the country".
Speaking of hanging, why don't we hang all "insurgents" caught. Isnt it written that if they are hung they don't "go to allah"?
This would make them less inclined to attempting their "free ticket to heaven" routine.
Lastly I'd rather a Communist country with a nuke than a "strapped a bomb to my child because allah told me to" one. All
Religious people are dangerous, just most don't have the means to let others know it.
Altroman January 5th, 2007, 03:44 PM

. . . So why the painless death? Why not dissolve him in the Iraqi equivalent of Rooto, or somesuch? Seeing as he did it to
many, many others, for far smaller offences. Guess I fail to see the "justice" in a clean, brief, euthanastic death.
I would have much rather seen it been built up like the Superbowl or the World Series or a Monster Truck pull, with expensive
tickets, in a large arena. They could have arranged the demise of some less-noted evildoers as opening acts, interspersed
with a musical song-and-dance routine and a speech by that days' leader of security. With advertising and concessions, of
course. Then the Big Event!
Oh yeah - almost forgot about merchandising! So who'se gonna be selling the "Saddam Exocution Playset"? Little plastic
gallows, well-dressed plastic Saddam doll (with extendable neck), prerecorded chants, taunting, and automated trapdoor
release at the push of the little red button (batteries not included). If they did, I'd definitely buy one so I could relive the
experience over and over.
shooter3 January 5th, 2007, 10:07 PM

Saddam was lucky. The muslims usually like to torture their victums. Most islamic hangings are short drop or hoisting from a
crane (don't die to fast now!). The executioners did a good job as a matter of fact. Scarf and 1 inch rope,so they didn't cut his
head of. The sliding part of the knot was facing front (to impart twist as the noose tightened) and aparently just enough drop
to kill him instantly. We should be doing that here as a deterent(gruesome, but humane).

As to true punishment, the last thing you want to do is kill him.
You make his every breath more hideously painful than the last. Seventy eleven different kinds of hell inflicted on him for as
long as he stays alive.
Death would be the most desired thing in his life. He would beg and plead for death. But death wouldn't come, until what ever
"natural" physical affliction took his life at age ninety.:)
akinrog January 6th, 2007, 06:45 PM

Saddam was lucky. The muslims usually like to torture their victums.
Recently I saw the video of his funeral and the Tikrit guys opened his casket for burial and looked at his face by opening the
shroud.
The video showed that there are a few bruises/wounds on his face and his shroud was stained at many locations with blood
around torso area, implying that the executioners (who are claimed to be relatives of Saddam's victims), tortured him before
or (most probably) after the death.
The subtitles (translations of what is said) show a lot of wovs of revenge. I believe a bloodbath awaits Iraq. Regards.
Jacks Complete January 6th, 2007, 08:10 PM

All good fun.
Everyone knows you need an iron fist to grasp a nettle like the middle east. Saddam had that. Bush doesn't, despite having
equally silly legal powers and aparatus.
Saddam tortured people for fun and profit. So did/do many Americans, honing their skills on suspected terrorists. Countries
like Iran look at America, and they listen to what America says. The West says "You must respect human rights or else!" yet it
detains hundreds (at least) of people without charge, some of whom will never, ever see the light of the sun again, without
ever being told why. The West says "Torture is wrong and you must not use it!" yet we hand over people to those who would
torture them for us, and we reap the rewards of the intelligence it may or may not get us. No big suprise that they won't do as
we say, but choose to do as we do.
Perhaps the USA and the UK has stared for too long into the abyss?
I'll end with a joke.
A man gets snatched off the streets. They won't tell him why he is being held, but there are a few American accents in the
questioners.
He knows he is in trouble when they repeatly ask, "Aren't you the suicide bomber, who blew up that bus last week?"
He tries logic, but that doesn't work. They try torture, and that doesn't work.
He knows he is in trouble when they repeatly ask, "Aren't you the suicide bomber, who blew up that bus last week?"
They accuse him of various acts of brutality, whilst beating and torturing him.
Eventually, his mind is broken, and then they let him go. And then he is the man they want him to be.
(http://3pod.com.au/podhome/sounds/idio/songsfromselfsaucing%202006/09%20-%20Suicide%20Bomber.mp3)

Point taken, Jack. We look like hypocrites to them.
And to add to it, they think that we're all Christian's, so the declare a "holy war" which in fact, war. I can't believe people buy
into that.
If only they opened up their eyes, past their sheepleness to see that where not all that bad at all...
Muslims/Islamists would take over the world if they had a chance.

A rather belated reply inventorgp, it is the difference between binding yourself and being bound.
The very fact that they needed to bind their citizens by using drugs shows that their world is far from perfect.
I'm sure the US will hand Iraq back over to the Iraqis....when the US has sucked it dry of as much as it can. They should have
made Saddam a 'friend'. Like they are friends with Israel.
48 LoP - "Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?"
Nice one Jacks, I'll have to remember that.

So far, the US has dumped around 360 billion into Iraq with no end in sight. Who is sucking who dry?
If that money had been put into developing alternate, renewable energy, we could tell the ragheads to go pound sand up their
asses.
NoltaiR January 7th, 2007, 06:40 PM

My first comment is in reference to the 'would you rather be run by saddam or bush?'
While I am a Bush supporter, no matter what he does his office has a definite ending point. Saddam should have opted for
just being voted out of office... it's a little better for the skin.
My second thought is that hanging is too quick.. and traditional.
How about tie him down on a large stage, and give him the old Chinese water torture until he goes crazy..

All the more reason for my statement 10fingers. Why would any sane person pour 360 billion into some rag head shit hole?
There needs to be a reason.
Maybe the amount gained from the economy being boosted, tied in with the oil gained. I have no fucking idea, but it just
doesn't make sense to do what they did unless there was some kind of ulteriorly motive.
Altroman January 8th, 2007, 11:36 AM

Hmmm . . Pour? Shithole? So where is all that money really going?
Probably not "over there." (i.e. the money is not going to Iraqis). Rather it is likely coming from Our Tax Dollars and going to
a few large contracting companies right here in the good ol' USA. Companies like KBR/Halliburton come to mind. Remember
that "we" are not one organism, but are composed of millions of separate human primates, each endowed with vested self-
interest.
Take a hint from Deep Throat (think Watergate, not Penthouse): Follow the Money . . .

No, I'm sure that most of it isn't going to the Iraqis. Would you give money to the Ragheads? Most of it is going to US
contractors and the military, some of it will eventually find it's way back into the US economy. Even if you would have taken the
whole 360 billion and handed it out to the entire civilian population of Iraq would that have solved there problems? I doubt it,
they're Iraqis, ragheads, they'll find a way to fuck up a good thing.
If the Iraqis were capable of getting there shit together, the US would have been gone a long time ago, but they are obviously
not going to.
Chopper January 9th, 2007, 06:05 PM

While there are certain indisputable truths in life, so many of man's problems stem from differences of opinion. I'd be willing
to bet that the majority of Iraquis don't nor ever did see America or any other western nation, for that matter, as having their
shit together.
Not for one minute either could you convince me that if one were to distribute 360 billion evenly amongst the population of
Northern America that all the problems of it's people would be solved either. Nor would it do squat in my country for that
matter. It would work out closer to 15 grand each, rather than the roughly 1 grand per person if distributed in the US, but
either way we'd still find a way to fuck up too I think you'd find. We're all too greedy. Monkey see, monkey do. Similarly,
money see, monkey want.
The only reason many islamic nations aren't over here teling us how to run our shit, and that we've got no fucking idea or
morals is because they can't. Not because they don't think that. Being able and willing to do something doesn't neccesarily
mean that it's the right thing to do. Isn't that part of the whole reason Iran is seen as a threat? They've finally positioned
themselves in such a way as to actually have some kind of follow-through to their rhetoric. If israel and other nations hadn't
given them the shits for so long now, there'd be hardly any concern over the potential uses for their current program.
Nor do all bouncers and police members do their job to protect and improve people's lot in life. The sooner this whole fucking
mess is over the better, as far as I'm concerned. I've seen things that had a better chance of living being consigned to the
abortion bucket.
Guess it's a bit like seeing rubish on the side of the road, it doesn't look so flash, but oh well, fuck-it! Not my fault, nor my
problem if I don't look.

The US has a lot of problems, but I would rather live here than in any Arab/Muslim country. I have a very low opinion of these
nations, they really cannot develop and maintain a government and economy that can give the people any hope of a better
life.
There are very few nations in this world that have their shit together, and we are not one of them. We have no business
running around the world trying to fix things when we cannot solve our own problems.
There are retired people here on social security who have worked all their lives to build this nation, paid taxes and who are now
living like paupers and have to chose between eating and medical care. Meanwhile we dump money by the trainload into the
blackhole of Iraq.
The only nations I have any respect for are the Scandinavians, Canada and China, they tend to their own business.

Well, the rate things are going economically as well as militarily, being fluent in Chinese will be an asset.

Muslims/Islamists would take over the world if they had a chance.
A good point, but it's the Christian Right running the USA.
Speaking Chinese sounds like a way to survive.
However, it is Lockheed Martin running the USA, at least as far as making war pay. I read this in the US Playboy for February.
Watch for Hugh Heffner getting sent to Gitmo! You should read this article, it seems well researched: http://playboy.com/
magazine/features/lockheed/index.html

They killed off his half-brother the other day. Popped one of the heads off the body! Very sloppy.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,122167,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl
As regards the strife in Iraq, from the same article:

At least 78 people were reported killed or found dead on Sunday, including 41 bullet-riddled bodies discovered in Baghdad.
The U.S. military also said two American Soldiers died Sunday from roadside bombs in Baghdad.
On Monday, three policemen were killed and two hurt when a roadside bomb targeted their car in a southeastern section of
Iraq's capital.
Sounds like a great place for a holiday.

They killed off his half-brother the other day. Popped one of the heads off the body! Very sloppy.
Geez, don't they have the Internet in Iraq!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Table_of_Drops
Wiltshire January 16th, 2007, 07:23 PM

Take a look on YouTube - just watched it, some security guard with a cell phone illegally videotaped it. I cant believe they
actually did it, I would have though theyd put him in prison for life, or, better yet, put him in a room with all the families and
loved ones of the poeple that he ruthlessly tortured and killed.
InfernoMDM January 16th, 2007, 09:03 PM

Take a look on YouTube - just watched it, some security guard with a cell phone illegally videotaped it. I cant believe they
actually did it, I would have though theyd put him in prison for life, or, better yet, put him in a room with all the families and
loved ones of the poeple that he ruthlessly tortured and killed.
That would have been a large portion of Iraq. You got a building the size of rode island floating around?
Jacks Complete January 17th, 2007, 08:47 AM

Except one third of them would still have thrown themselves in front of the gun for him. So it might be a bit of a mess. Oh,
wait...
(It wasn't Saddam's head they pulled off.)

Leaving him in prison would have been stupid, there is a lot more to be said for getting rid of him now than leaving him
around to get out on a technicality, or due to a small team of trained nutters either getting in there and rescueing him or
getting in there and killing him. No-one can claim to be getting messages from his cell, and he can't be brainwashed into a
puppet.
Any way, that short drop is cheaper in the long run.

Except one third of them would still have thrown themselves in front of the gun for him. So it might be a bit of a mess. Oh,
wait...
(It wasn't Saddam's head they pulled off.)
Leaving him in prison would have been stupid, there is a lot more to be said for getting rid of him now than leaving him
around to get out on a technicality, or due to a small team of trained nutters either getting in there and rescueing him or
getting in there and killing him. No-one can claim to be getting messages from his cell, and he can't be brainwashed into a
puppet.
Any way, that short drop is cheaper in the long run.
I am not so sure about 1/3 maybe a 10th. Everyone I talked to over there didn't like the guy, and the few that lived alright
under his control still didn't really like the guy. I think you would have found a lot more people not stepping up or doing
anything at all.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/382178/saddam_the_unseen_video/ LOL Saddam is still alive according to this vid.
A good video to watch is Control Room, google video it.
It shows the propaganda in Iraq's view. The video gives the impression that most of Iraq didnt want America in there (even
though they hate Saddam.)
You have all seen that video where the statue of Saddam is pulled down and Iraq's hitting his head whilst dragging it across
the ground? According to one Iraqi media worker (reporter? forgot what he worked as) he said (forgive me for inaccuracy) "I
have lived in Iraq my whole life. I was born here, I was raised here, I would recognise an Iraqi accent, and they were not
Iraqis"
simply RED January 19th, 2007, 02:42 PM

About China:
The whole thing started when the polytical power in USA was given to the corporations (70s-80s) (The start of the Grave-a-
lization). Then the corporations started to move the production plants to Asia. Reason1: while a corporation has to pay
5000dolars/month for a white worker - to the chinese it payed 100-500 and they are happy. Reason2: resources are cheaper
in China. Reason3: lower taxes.
After the iron curtain was torn - powerful economic organizations from western Europe saw in China a force that will balance the
world economy - they did not want America to be the only world ruler. According to a brochure published by the "Humboldt
Organization" "In the period after 1989 the organization sponsored China with more than 100 bilion euro! Even some of the
Chinese Science Academy leaders were Humboldt stipendiants"...
What I found lurking in the net:

"""U.S. federal funding for scientific programs for Fiscal Year
2007 is in danger of being subjected to a freeze at 2006 levels,
which would adversely affect critical investments in research and
development, national security, education, and other areas such
as NSF and DOE Office of Science initiatives. Find out more and
urge your elected officials to support science funding"""
http://www.congressweb.com/cweb4/index.cfm?orgcode=OSA
""As a constituent, your voice is heard loudest in the Capitol Hill offices of those men and women who represent you in
Congress.""
So, urge them! Write to them immediately!!! Write to the beloved Bush administration begging them not to cut fundings!
Do not forget to ask for "Learn Chinese in 5 Easy Steps" CD too.

It shows the propaganda in Iraq's view. The video gives the impression that most of Iraq didnt want America in there (even
though they hate Saddam.)
You have all seen that video where the statue of Saddam is pulled down and Iraq's hitting his head whilst dragging it across
the ground? According to one Iraqi media worker (reporter? forgot what he worked as) he said (forgive me for inaccuracy) "I
have lived in Iraq my whole life. I was born here, I was raised here, I would recognise an Iraqi accent, and they were not
Iraqis"
As for Iraqis want America or not is a very complicated issue. The problem is not whether or not they want, because nobody
listens to genuine Iraqis.
The actual problem is the motive behind the war and choosing the most tribalistic group of Iraq that imperialists played their
cards on. They are as socially primitive as Taliban in Afghanistan and believe me within a few years (decades) US public shall
start discussing Kurdish terrorism against US, just like they are now discussing Al-Qaeda, core cadre of which was trained,
supported and bankrolled by our big brother against reds in Afghanistan.
Since they are the most primitive group in Iraq still living as clans, they are the least liked amongst the non-Kurdish
population in Iraq. In addition, thanks to support of certain intelligence organizations, they have been waging a war against
the governments in the region not only the Iraqi government but also other governments too for establishing their Kurdistan.
Their terrorist activities include killing civilians, even the people they call as their own people, who opposed their political
agenda.
Actually I cannot blame Saddam for killing them since they are triballistic themselves, if you punish one member of a clan,
they relentlessly fight against you and you have to kill the rest of them too, because they are fanatical blockheads, doing
every bidding of their clan leaders.
NBK call them as their proxies out of his courtesy but I call them puppets and foot soldiers. I call them foot soldiers, and non-
Kurdish Iraqis call them foot soldiers and hate them by every part of their hearts.
Important note: The difference of definition stems from the fact that when a terrorist group is useful to new world order guys,
they are marked as freedom fighters by them (example, Afghan Mujahedeen, f*cking Stallone even made a movie about
them). And when a terrorist group is not useful or against them, they mysteriously became terrorists (example, again Afghan
Mujahedeen, which is now called as Al-Kaeda).
Similarly, regular terrorists (as a bad combination, triballistic terrorists) as a useful tool of new world order guys have become
underdog victim of Saddam and praised as freedom fighters. However, they have been and are terrorists.
The Kurdish terrorists recently intensified their silent (i.e. not covered by Western Media) ethnic cleansing operations in
Northern Iraq they embarked on since the first gulf war. They are forcing non-Kurdish population in Northern Iraq to leave the
area, extorting their land and if the inhabitants refuse, they simply kill them. Those kils are never blamed on them, because
they are silent (i.e. not covered by Western Media) kills.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm
The above link explains why I'm talking about these events in Iraq. The above link indicates with PHOTOS that the famous
scene that the freedom loving GI-Joe hugging Iraqis taking down the evil leader Saddam Hussein's statue is actually a
STAGED MEDIA EVENT.
The reporter even identified the guys who acted in such staged event. They are Kurdish traitors who are feeding their demon
seed children from the money coming from blood of Iraqis. If I were Iraqi, I would not only kill that man but kill all his family,
feeding him and his family's remains to porks, because that fu cking traitor rat deserves it. But the problem is if you kill him,
you have to kill his entire clan, because they shall declare a blood feud on you, doing everything to backstab you. :mad:
When you kill their clan to defend yourself, they shall kneel before their western masters and start whining like bitches,
presenting themselves as a victim of massacre. If they cannot bear consequences of fighting, like a man does then they
should not be fighting. F*cking coward mecaneries. :mad:
Sorry for a long and harsh post, but I'm really depressed and this post might be one of the last posts I'm making here
(because of a possible war between my country and puppet government of Iraq and worst of all maybe eventually the
invaders, thereby causing unplugging of our internet connection for a while):
A few days ago, terrorist puppet (in western media's jargon, Iraqi President) talabani's men start killing Turkmens in Kirkuk
city of Iraq, since they want to include Mousul and Kirkuk in Kurdish territories (soft name of Kurdistan) and in near future a
referendum shall take place to decide whether or not these cities are Kurdish cities.
Unfortunately cock suckers in Washington D.C. have been stalling my country's government with regard to Kurdish terrorism
not only in Iraq but also in my country since the invasion. They even established a bogus coordinator's desk (or whatever f*ck
it's called in English) to pretend they are doing something to prevent PKK (a separatist kurdish terrorist organization) terrorism
in my country and protect rights of Turkmens in Iraq.
However, a recent video footage indicated that US government has no such intention since a group of GI Joes who have been
notified by US government to our general staff as a raid party to a PKK camp, which was harbored within the territories of Iraq,
were joking with armed kurdish terrorists who had killed more than 50 thousand officers (mostly civil servants) and a few more
folds of civilians (not only non-Kurds but also Kurds as a false flag operation), causing several hundreds of billions of dollars
damages.
Within a few days, (maybe even now) our National Assembly shall hold a closed session to decide what military options, they
shall exercise in Iraq, and most probably to authorize our government to declare war on Iraq, because our beloved big brother
is actually a part even active supporter / player of this Kurdish terrorism game and enough is enough.
I'm not into fighting G.I. Joes, however the US government also whines about it and I hope we never have to engage each
other.
I hope two governments find out a way out and we don't have to fight. Regards.

Perhaps not 1/3rd or even 1/10th, but enough for it to get really messy, really fast.
The statue coming down, it was utterly fake. They hacked at it for ages, then eventually they hooked it to a Bradley (iirc) and
pulled it down with that. Most copies only show you a jump cut between nearly down and all the way down, as they cut out the
bits where the US soldiers hooked on the chains and backed up the vehicle!
Akinrog, see my PM. Stay safe, and have a few plans.
InfernoMDM January 23rd, 2007, 01:26 AM

Perhaps not 1/3rd or even 1/10th, but enough for it to get really messy, really fast.
The statue coming down, it was utterly fake. They hacked at it for ages, then eventually they hooked it to a Bradley (iirc) and
pulled it down with that. Most copies only show you a jump cut between nearly down and all the way down, as they cut out the
bits where the US soldiers hooked on the chains and backed up the vehicle!
Akinrog, see my PM. Stay safe, and have a few plans.

They were asked to yank it down, buy some English speaking Iraqis, then they had to get clearance to do so.

Fro m all I ve seen it was a show, even if Iraq s a sked to pull it do wn, but they were probably the Kurd s or Mus lims from other
countries so really it would still be a meaningless media show.
Inferno, were did you hear about that consent? The media?
kaiserbill January 24th, 2007, 10:20 AM

One thing I see not mentioned here is that, evil bastard or not, at least Saddam went to his death with dignity. Most
translations show him asking the people taunting him at his execution if "this is what it now means to be a man in Iraq".
I've also never understood the pathetic attempt to link Saddam with Islamic terrorism. There are (or were) 800 000 odd
christian Iraqi's in Iraq under Saddam. There was even a sizeable Jewish contingent who were free to worship. There were
liquor outlets, most of which were run by Iraqi christians or jews. These liquor outlets and the jewish and christian communities
were targeted first. I read a newspaper article in which a christian Iraqi stated that they were not celebrating Christmas for the
first time in their lives due to their fear for their lives.
Saddam was a secular dictator that would brook no challenge to his rule. Islamic fundamentalists were his sworn enemy. Bin
Laden has referred to Saddam in the past as an infidel. There was no link between him and them...nor will there ever be. Was
he a nasty evil piece of work? Absolutely. But then there are many just like him in the world.
What happened in Iraq was nothing less than the rape of a nation by Corporate America. Oil revenues will pay for the
reconstruction of the country by favoured corporate contractors from 'The Coalition of the Willing." The military got to use
munitions from existing stocks approaching shelf life expiry, whilst the large defense contractors get to sell munitions to
replace those stocks. It is not rocket science (or rogue science:D )
All said, an unholy mess with thousands dead so some fatcats can get a little richer. At least the monster showed how a man
goes to his execution with a little dignity, like him or not.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Nuclear Detonation In Space
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I'm sure you have all seen the various shows a bout how we would try to ward off an im pending collision of the Earth with a
m eteorite/com e t . I n s o m e of these scenarios they propose hitting it with a nuclear weapon to either destroy it or knock it off
course.
I was just thinking ab out this and it occurred to m e that m ost of a nuclear weapons blasts effects are caused by the
s u p e r h e a t i n g o f t h e a t m osphere with the resulting expa nsion an d shock wave. W e l l , i n s p a c e y o u h a v e n o a t m o s p h e r e s o I
would think that the effects of a nuclear blast would be greatly m inimized. So how are you going to m o v e i t ? I t s e e m s t o m e
that the only thing yo u would do is warm the thing up a bit.
I n t h e m o v i e Armageddon (totally inane m ovie),they placed the nukes below the surface which would have more of an effect
but I think in reality would be totally im p o s s i b l e .
Hirudinea January 1st, 2007, 07:11 PM

I f y o u e x p l o d e d t h e n u k e o f t h e s u r f a c e o f t h e r o c k t h e e n e r g y f r o m the explosion and the "kick" from the ejection of
vapourized rock would cause a change in the rocks course (or sm ash it apart), or at lease I think it would, m abye we can ask
the USAF if we can bo rrow a couple Min utem en and give it a try? :D
Frunk January 2nd, 2007, 12:59 AM

A nuke in space would cause an EM radiation burst, from g a m m a rays to infrared.
It would be a fart in the wind compared to the radiation output o f the sun and probably wouldn't harm the Earth.
If detonated on an asteroid, it could vaporize parts of the rock, but shockwaves can't prop agate in vacuum . The asteroid would
be somewhat deflected due to conservation of energy.
Skean Dhu January 2nd, 2007, 11:47 AM

There is also nothing on the otherside of the bom b, what I mean is when it explo des on the surface of the asteroid there is
zero tamping, not even air to provide m inimal resistance. So nearly all of the effects are going to be bounced off of the object
rather than projected through it.
At the very least a nu clear bunker-buster would have to be used in order to get a respectable result.
Ygarl January 3rd, 2007, 05:48 AM

Unfortunately, there is a m o r e s e r i o u s p r o b l e m .
S o m e source s theorise that th e energy to m ove a Carbonaceous Chondrite-style or icy body (i.e. com et) via nuclear explosion
m ay instead fracture the bodies. Even more alarm ingly, several imaged asteroids have turned out to be binary, trinary, or even
just heaps of rubble gravitatio nally attracted to each other.
I don't need to spell out the effects of sending a nuke to an asteroid to change its course, only to find that it's 2 or 3 or 100
bodies in close contact...
S o m e m ay not realise that breaking a mid-sized asteroid into 2 parts is actually m ore dangerous than having it in one part.
T h e e f f e c t s o f o n e 2 k i l o m etre asteroid vs. two 1 kilom etre asteroids (or even worse - five 400 meter ones!) is far worse locally
and regionally and is just as bad globally overall.
A 1km asteroid would cause over 15psi overpre ssure 10 0 m iles away, and heat effects capable of igniting grass! Having 2
s o m e 100 km apart doesn't bear thinking about. It is roughly equal to a 60000 MEGAton bom b. Alm ost as scary - a 180m o n e
like one found last week would im pact with the effect of a 300 m e g a t o n b o m b.
Kind a m akes ANFO and Nitro look pathetic...
W hile using nukes to change the course of an asteroid is theoretically po ssible, it would have to be very carefully checked out
b e f o r e h a n d . T u r n i n g a 3 k m a s t e r o i d i n t o - s a y - a p i l e o f 3 5 1 k m a s t e r o i d s s e p a r a t e d i n s p a c e o v e r 4 0 0 o r 5 0 0 k m i n s p a c e is
d e f i n i t e l y n o t a g o o d i d e a . T h a t w o u l d b e t h e e q u i v a l e n t o f d r o p p i n g a 6 0 G i g a t o n b o m b e v e r y 1 0 o r 1 5 k m every 2 seconds for
2 m i n u t e s i n a c h a i n 5 0 0 k m long.... approxim ately the size of the entire UK from north to south, or the entire Eastern
Seaboard.
Perhaps an ion rocket engine which would run for several weeks, or a solar sail would be a better idea. These are some ideas
bein g currently considered if n e e d e d .
Armageddon was ridiculous as a scientific m ovie. Deep Impact was far better, and had a b etter story anyway. At least it was
vaguely realistic...

If you want to look m ore into using a nuke to move an astroid you could look up "Project O rion" on Wikipedia, it wa s a n i d e a
to use nuclear bom bs to drive a spacecraft thro ugh space, in theory it could get the ship u p to 2% the speed of light (and it
was a big friggin' ship), the project was well researched so I'm sure som e of the principles could be applied to diverting an
astroid.

O n a s i d e n o t e , a n i m p r o v e d d esign of Orion, Project Daedalus, would theoretically have re a c h e d 1 2 % o f l i g h t s p e e d :
http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Project_Da e d a l u s
shooter3 January 5th, 2007, 09:51 PM

Usin g a grid patern covering o ne face of the asteroid, 150feet from the surface, (m a y b e o n poles?), fired a t the same tim e,
would cause som e a b lation of the surface. Bein g uniform over the whole face would impart som e acceleration in that direction.
Even if the asteroid broke up, the m aterial would be pushed out of the way (assum ing it was aim ed correctly). Solar sails m a y
work and the orbiting mas idea m ay also, but this is the FO RUM!!! I want to blast it out of the sky!!
in_flames January 12th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 8 : 3 8 P M

I think the m ain prob lem of nuke-ing an asteroid would be that fact that the aste roid is now radioactive so anything that still
hits would se nd fine radioactive dust everywhere on imp act.
Hirudinea January 14th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 9 : 4 5 P M

O n a s i d e n o t e , a n i m p r o v e d d esign of Orion, Project Daedalus, would theoretically have re a c h e d 1 2 % o f l i g h t s p e e d
Yea I know, but the nice thing about O rion is that we have the technology this very m inute to build it, Daed alus wou ld require
s o m e advances in fusion technology.
Jacks Complete January 16th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 5 : 1 8 P M

I doubt the tiny am ount of radioactivity would mean mu ch after it was buried in the m antle by the flying rocks. Heck , it's plenty
warm down there due to radioactivity anyway!
The best thing to do would be a giant net or so mething akin to a solar sail. Simply wrap it in that to keep it togethe r, then
allow the cha nge in m o m e n t u m of the sunlight hitting it to push it onto a different course. Failing that, a powerful rocket
backed up by an ion drive (or even a neat trick with an ion drive that lasered or ion beam e d t h e s u r f a c e a n d u s e d t h e r o c k
itself as propellant) would shift it just fine.
You would want to slo w it as far as possible, so it falls into the sun.
If we had really, really good telescopes that could pick out come ts and big rocks on funny trajectories in other solar systems,
we could seek intelligent life easily. A total absence of these bodies would indicate that the species there had decided to sweep
h o u s e t o a v o i d l o s i n g a planet worth of people.
As it is, we don't even spot ha lf the risks until they are past us!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > X Ray of Different Material
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Shadow_Talons January 6th, 2007, 03:07 AM

Disclaim er: This forum is an o pen discussion about x ra ying of different m aterials. Being a newbie, this is my first post so be
nice. I've done a search on x ray on this site and did not turn anything up. Some interesting sites cam e u p o n a q u i c k g o o g l e
search about x ray's.
LIXI X-Ray Security cam e up with this link http://www.lixi.com /x-ray-security.htm
In the im age of the pen, it shows hidden electrontics. Does any one know how different materials show up on x ray detectors?
W hat about m etals like steel, silver, and gold and do objects be hind the material show up on the scan?
Open discussion, this should be interesting.

Your search skills are weak. Searches only work on word s over 3 letters long. Try searching for "backscatter x-ray". However, it
is an interesting link.

*sigh* Did you do a search for x ray or x-ray? Because if it was the first one, there will be no results returned as the search
engine on this forum doesn't process anything with 3 letters or less.
If you did a search of roguesci.org using google and used "x ray" you wo uld have found 112 results.
Now, from m e m ory, a ll m etals will show up on x-rays. It has to do with th e density. Naturally, som ething m o r e d e n s e ( l i k e
l e a d ) will show up on an x-ray scan m o r e t h a n s o m e t h i n g l e s s d e n s e ( s a y n o r m al air). I think it might have som eth ing to do
with outer shell electron energ y levels, but that could be som ething else. Its been a while.
Edit: It has to do with absorption. As I understand it, the x-rays can be a bsorbed in 2 ways. Either the x-ray hits the nucleus
a n d i m parts all its energy to the nucleus and produces heat, or it "interacts" with the electron shell and produces other
wavelengths of light. Naturally, if the m aterial has electron energy states capable of intera cting with the x-ray, then the %
absorption will be greater than som eth ing that only relies on a d irect hit to the nu cleus.
But don't tak e m y word for that (I'm hardly a definitive source on this), d o s o m e searching. Physics books will help you, and
physics page s on the net.
Also, we don't really care if you are a newbie. Saying "Be nice, I'm a newbie" is like saying "Be nice, I'm stupid".
C o m p a r e d t o s o m e people, you will always be a newbie, as will I.
So just get over it.
rayman January 7th, 2007, 01:13 PM

Shadow_talens, W elcom e t o t h e b o a r d , T h e r e h a s a s A l e x i r e s s a id been threads on this.
Alex ires, Where I agree with you, I think its the Mod team m e m b e r s t h a t s h o u l d c o m m e n t o n m ost of what you said, And
bein g a user of the forum not part of the m o d t e a m m aybe you should ( just a thought ) be more helpful with newe r mem bers
as we should be trying to support each other so that we can all grow, instead of saying "you didnt use the FSE properly" maybe
you could have said "the SE works better this way .... "
W ording m eans alot, Not attem pting to start a pissing contest or anything, BU T we are all here to learn and share, There is no
reason for any of us to start o ff a newbie by pissing in his corn flakes
Just my 2.2 cents
I'm betting this post gets m e s o m e t y p e o f b a n

I've heard th at alum i n i u m h a s s a m e a bsorption as flesh so it won't show up in the soft tissues of the body, which is why its
i l l e g a l t o m a k e w e a p o n s t h a t p r o d u c e a l u m i n u m s h r a p n el, but I don't know how that could possibly help you. :)

You are complete right rayman. That probably was a little harsh, but I didn't intend it to be so.
Basically, if you want to re-word it, I contributed what I knew, but didn't care enough about the subject to put in hours of
searching m yself.
It also irks m e a little when newbies te ll m e to be nice to them because they are new.
I t a l s o s e e m e d t o m e from a few hints that he wants info without actually doing the work. U nless you're blind and brain dead,
when you click search, you will see the google search bar above the rs.org search.
Fair enough if you don't understand that it will pick up things the normal search doesn't get, but th e n h e g o e s s a y t h a t h e d i d
a "quick search" for x -rays, hinting tha t he (like me) couldn't be bothered to do some research. Hell, I probably did m ore
searching looking for x-ray ab sorption than he did.
And then finally, he g o e s o n t o s a y " o p e n d i s c u s s i o n " l i k e w e n e e d e d h i s d i v i n e b l e s s i n g t o t a l k a b out the subject after his
bounty of useful and wonderful inform ation.
S o , a l t h o u g h i t m a y s e e m l i k e I ' m trashing you Shadow_Talons, I'm not. Those were just little personal things that shat m e
off.
W e l c o m e t o T h e F o r u m *grin*.
On topic, this (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mod3.html) explains fairly well how x-rays work.
L o o k f o r s o m ething like x-ray transparency in google. W hen I get the chance to in a few weeks, and if this still hasn't been
sorted out, I'll ask a physics Prof at uni.
Ygarl January 8th, 2007, 12:38 PM

And now for a USEFUL answer to your question.
By x -rays, I m u s t a s s u m e y o u m e a n f r e i g h t a n d b a g g a g e x - r a y m a c h i n e s .
In this, you are m ost fortunate as I sp ent a stint as an air-freight security officer. On one site I was part of a team x-raying
every piece of freight going onto DHL's aircraft out of London He athrow, and going onto land-cargo from the depot which was
not already security cleared. At another site, I was responsible for ALL the freight going out which was not security cleared. Both
s i t e s u s e d x - r a y m a c h i n e s b i g e n o u g h t o s t a n d in, and big enou gh to put a Mini through (the tiny car, I m ean of course).
In any case, the relative absorbsion of various substances is colour-coded. Completely x-ray opaque items show up black,
high ly x-ray absorbent m ateriel (dense metals i.e. iron/steel, bronze, brass, etc.) show up blue, m o d e r a t e l y a b s o r b e n t
m ateriel (alu minium , maybe copper, e tc.) shows up green, and organic materiel shows up orange.
An organic explosive for instance would show up as a orange shape with green wires/leads trailing out of it, to a blue/green
shape with wiring thro u g h o u t a n d o n e o r m ore solid black m asses attached to it (batteries).
A f i r e a r m g e n e r a l l y s h o w s u p a s a b l a c k a n d i n d i g o g u n s h a p e , w i t h p e r h a p s s o m e o r a n g e y parts for plastic on the grip, etc.
The shades of colour show the varying densities of the m ateriel. Essentially, an experienced tech on the x-ray m achine can
learn to recognise suspicious item s with a high degree of accuracy.
Realistically however, in air freight (NOT passenger fligh t btw!) we get a huge pile of bags at 40kg at a tim e, and get told to x-
ray an entire 4 tons of freight piled to the top of the m achine (som e 2 m eters) at the sam e time. W e were lucky to see
obvious KNIVES, let alone subtle differences be tween explosives and cheese, or wood, or stacks of paper or any oth er organic
m ateriel.
So, to finally answer your question: Aluminium shows up green or blue depending on if it's alloyed and wha t with. Steel/iron
shows up blu e / b l a c k d e p e n d i n g o n i t s t h i c k n e s s . I d o n ' t r e m e m ber silver or gold, but since a quite thin piece of lead shows up
a s b lack I reason that silver would show nearly black tinted blue, and gold black unless ve ry thin as in foil or perhaps a thin
chain.
*I* would search a package m anually which showed lots of black or blue ingot shapes! ;-)

subtle differences between explosives and cheese
So you would suggest shiping explosives in big wheels of cheese? :)
W ould you still have any training m anuals, colour pictures of exem plars going through the m achines, ect., that you could
uplo ad, those could be quite interestin g t o t h e p e o p l e h e r e .
rayman January 8th, 2007, 07:14 PM

Alex ires, We all m ake mistakes, My self I have so many interests that I cant search for every think I need to know, Every now
and again being given a little inform ation helps m e alot, But I dont ask to be fee d. Some tim es ju st knowing the right term to
search for is such a big help, But to the person that has been involved in that are a for a while would find it to be a silly or
stup id question.
Anywho before I write two or three pages on it ..... " its all good " com e s t o m i n d
Ygarl January 9th, 2007, 04:17 AM

So you would suggest shiping explosives in big wheels of cheese? :)
Not a bad idea actually. The ideal thing to do would be to find substances which h a v e t h e s a m e x-ray density on a freight
m achine.
Unfortunately, the problem is getting access to a proper m achine to test it.

I know a training centre literally across the street from Heathrow which may be am using to visit late at night perhaps...
I don't have any training materials unfortunately, as I took the course 5 years ag o o r s o . T h e m a c h i n e s h a v e q u i t e a h i g h
definition, and I have been able to read text on some plastic and m etal items in the machine in the past.
I've moved on since then - mainly as they were paying about 5.45ph to their staff and working 37 hours a week. So you were
t a k i n g h o m e a b o u t 1 2 0 a w e ek after taxes! Hell, m y rent was 250 a m onth at the tim e !
Let's just say: don't ship anything you want to keep through DHL unless it is valueless in economic term s (or LOO KS like
s o m ething valueless) or it will go m i s s i n g ! Y o u c a n m a k e d o u b l e t h e m oney on welfare he re!
Alexires January 10th , 2007, 08:48 AM

Ygarl - You could always loiter around airports keeping your eyes open for bags that aren't attended. Then you could slip your
cheese explosive into their luggage or whatever you are trying to test.
If th ey get busted, it didn't work. If they get through, then you won't hea r anything about it.
W ill som e t h i n g o f a l e s s e r a b s o r b e n c y ( e g . a n o r g a n i c m a t e r i a l ) i n s i d e s o m ething of a greater absorbency (a Cu or Al tin) show

up on x-ray as the co rrect colour or would it be masked by the m etal?
Ygarl January 10th , 2007, 11:58 AM

Tricky...
A lesser-density item in a greater would show a s one colour inside the other A blu e larger object, say, with a yellow-er (?) one
inside it - showing as greenish-orange etc.
The only exception would be if it was x -ray opaque, but then that would leave it o pen for a manual inspection, and who wants
people pawing throug h t h e i r c h e e s e ? H a h a h
Particularly if your Gouda or Jarlsberg was likely to explode if tampered with!
Absorbsion is an im portant pa rt of x-ray visibility, as is scattering (reflection and diffraction) away from the cam era/detector. To
clarify - if the x-rays are diverted away from their paths away from the detector, they will e ffectively appear darker or denser on
a real m achine. X-ray flat surfaces have been developed for spa ce-telescopes, etc.

Now Ygarl, as I understand it, the computer in the x-ray m achine adds its own colour to the picture that you are seeing.
So, for a 5-10% loss in signal strength the m achine would colour that orange, for a 10-20% loss green, etc.
How can the m achine tell that the loss in signal strength is from one object inside another and not sim ply from having a
varying thickness of only one object, if you get my meaning?
I suppose that multiple source points of x-rays would allow for a differential approach, but still, its asking a bit much of the
m achine.
D a m n, but for some reason, thinking of a chee s e b o m b is so incredibly amusing.
Ygarl January 12th , 2007, 04:44 AM

Hm m m ... Thinking about it - a lesser density inside a g reater one would show up DARKER and BLU ER - not Green/O range. I
was thinking backwards there.
But it would still be visible as the absorbsion would be h igher overall.
Sorry about that! Neurons still short of caffeine I guess...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Kill More Kids!
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festergrump January 6th, 2007, 08:08 PM

'http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/298561_guns05.html?source=rss'
Bryan Jones, director of the Center for American Politics and Public Policy at the University of Washington, agreed that the gun lobby is the main reason politicians are unlikely
to pass new control laws.[SNIP]
..."I hate to say it but it's going to take the kind of massacre that kills lots of children. That's the only way we are going to see progress," Jones said.
Asshole gun grabbing scum like this should be murdered with their favorite (often bill signing) ballpoint pen.
tmp January 6th, 2007, 10:06 PM

This logic coming from antigunners isn't new. They capitalize on the deaths
of victims to push their agendas. It's fucking sick ! One thing George W.
Bush did may have a lasting effect on gun control. He nominated and got 2
conservatives on the Supreme Court. John Roberts and certainly Samuel
Alito may do more to protect the 2nd Amendment than any liberal would.
In 1996, Alito found himself the lone dissenter in a Federal Appeals Court
asserting that bans on machineguns are unconstitutional.
My kind of judge ! :D
atlas#11 January 6th, 2007, 11:35 PM

I personaly am not worried about it. I have never legitimatly purchased a firearm in my life, (Though I have quite a few ;) ). As far as gun bans go, it will never happen, and if
it does it won't go over too smoothly with the people who own them.
And if it does come down to it, I'd rather have the law-abiding brain-washed sheeple unarmed and easy to control when those of us smart enough to have weapons decide
we've had enough.
The fact that Jones said they're waiting for a massacre of kids is kind of wierd though. Sounds like Bush before 9/11.
nbk2000 January 7th, 2007, 01:09 AM

If there isn't a spontaneous shooting they can use to trump the horn of Guns are evillll!, they'll manufacture one with one of their many puppets. :(

You see in the article that a shooting in the Jewish Federation was a reason why guns should be banned. Remember, it takes motive and means to commit a 'crime'. Why the
fuck don't they just ban Jews instead of guns? Or unreasonable unfounded hate? (*wink* like against guns).
If you think that a line in your constitution is going to protect your gun ownership, then you need to think long and carefully about where to world is going and who is actually
running your country.
Also note the age old line that banning guns will "protect our families and children". Protect them from what?
The ire of small game?
Perhaps the revenge of the mutant rabbit people?
Wake up and actually see how this shit happens you morons!
In Australia, you can buy automatic weapons that are ILLEGAL for all normal citizens (whether they have a firearm license of any class or not). Where did they come from?
They certainly aren't stolen, cause you can't buy them you fucking idiots.
*sigh* Its the mentality of these people. "It will take a massacre to get my point across to the scared sheeple".
See, how many times in the past (read "times with less gun control") was there some kind of mass murder? People didn't take their dads gun and go to school and shoot other
kids up.
It's in their heads, not their hands that the problem is. It is their subconscious realizing that society is fucked up, and it is the cognitive dissonance where their instincts (rage,
anger, hatred) are being suppressed by the pussy views that have been drilled into them.
You hear how the kids were anti social, and that everyone always thought they were weird. Fucking bullshit. The other kids picked on him and he was too pussy to stand up
for himself. He hated being so pussy, so one day blew them all apart. They then blame him, because they feel guilty about it.
Damn, this shit pisses me off and it isn't even my country.

Anti-gunners annoy me to the point I just want to... anyway since that ass in tasmania sheeple australians think guns are seeds of evil that possess people and turn them into
death machines from the bowels of hell.
You can get Glock 17's, 18's, Uzi's, M\LAW66, RPG 7's, steyr AUG's this is *some* of the stuff you can get here.
NO GUNS = KNIVES, AXES, OTHER POINTY, STABBING, SLICING, INSTRUMENTS
Dumb kids who think their nigga and wit it. Well most of the cases.
Alexires it would agitate anyone off who appreciates instruments of peace.

And also Alex, JFPO (or whatever) is an organization of jews who what firearms.
again,
NO GUNS = KNIVES, AXES, OTHER POINTY, STABBING, SLICING, INSTRUMENTS
If they don't want guns they are surely to be stabbed.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Wound Profiles of Military
Ammunition
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Because of all the talk about AKs and ARs I thought some imagery to help look at balistics. Note the M855 Long NL which is
the standard round the military shoots.
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/40052-MilitaryAssaultRifleWPcopy.jpg
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/40053-MilitaryRifleWPcopy.jpg
nbk2000 January 7th, 2007, 12:57 AM

Ballistics (two L's) is the behaviour of a projectile during flight and in the gun.
Terminal effects is what the projectile does to its targets.

You are quite right, slip of the fingers/brain.
The 30 cm/12 line represents the minimum penetration distance necessary to consistently damage vital organs on larger
individuals, with shots from oblique angles, and through intervening limbs. The 20 cm/8 mark gives a rough idea of the
damage on an unobstructed frontal shot or on shots through thin, malnourished individuals.
NL refers to neck lengththe penetration depth prior to initial projectile upset (yaw, fragmentation, deformation, etc). The
JSWB-IPT identified two issues that significantly alter projectile NL at CQB distances, thus causing differing terminal effects.
First, Angle-of-Attack (AOA) variability at impact can substantially wound severity; this factor is more prevalent with certain
calibers and projectile types. Testing demonstrated that 5.56 mm is highly susceptible to AOA variations, particularly when
using FMJ projectiles such as M193 & M855. For example, with 5.56 mm FMJ, at higher AOAs, for example 2-3 degrees,
bullets had a shorter neck length (NL) and upset rapidly, thus providing adequate terminal effects; at low AOA, like 0-1
degree, the projectiles penetrated deeper than ideal prior to initial upset (ie. long NL) with significantly reduced terminal
effects. Note that other calibers were less susceptible to AOA variations than 5.56 mm and OTMs tend to have less AOA issues
than FMJ. The 6.8 mm has proved to have the least AOA inconsistencies of any caliber tested to date.
Fleet Yaw is the other significant yaw issue discovered by the JSWB-IPT. Fleet Yaw is the terminal performance variation caused
by inherent variability in each rifle. 5.56 mm FMJ had the most Fleet Yaw induced variability of any projectile caliber & type. 6.8
mm had the least Fleet Yaw variations of any projectile caliber & type tested.
[B]What this means is that two shooters firing the same lot of M855 from their M4s with identical shot placement can have
dramatically different terminal performance results: one shooter states that his M855 is working great and is effective at
dropping bad guys, while the other complains his opponent is not being incapacitated because M855 is zipping right through
the target without upsetting. Both shooters are telling the truth

Seems rather strange that all this research goes into the "ultimate" bullet design because militaries have to respect an artifical
limit in using fmj bullets.
ShadowMyGeekSpace January 8th, 2007, 07:15 AM

The M193 and M855 rounds won't do their little fragmentation trick below 2400fps. Using a barrel shorter than 14.5 inches isn't
recommended, because then the round suffers greatly. Honestly, anything shorter than a 16 inch barrel isn't effective in 5.56
unless you're across the room from your target, and you're best with a 20 inch if you can manage it. There are also barrels
machined ever so slightly smaller than the round size, so that the round builds more pressure and thus exits the barrel faster
from the muzzle.
But really the 5.56mm round isn't that great of a round, I'd much rather purchase a 7.62mm upper reciever and use that
instead of a 5.56 on an AR series rifle. If I was forced to use it though, I'd have each mag loaded with hornady tap rounds or
hornady v-max rounds.
www.hornady.com
Chris The Great January 8th, 2007, 09:04 PM

See http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
This site not only diagrams like those shown above, but also includes a large selection of written resources on the subject.

See http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
This site not only diagrams like those shown above, but also includes a large selection of written resources on the subject.
I have been told about that sight a good bit from people who do ballistic and wound profiling for a living.
That sight has been quoted many times by different people on forums specifically to do with ballistics. None of the sights
really like that sight for many reasons, such as faulty or misleading information. Then again these guys are dealing with the
technical aspects, and the site is cut and pasting the information of research most times and not in the proper way.
nbk2000 January 9th, 2007, 04:19 PM

Yes, that is an interesting web site. I've read that web site numerous times in the past. Hopefully it never drops out of sight,
never to be seen again. ;)

Yes, that is an interesting web site. I've read that web site numerous times in the past. Hopefully it never drops out of sight,
never to be seen again. ;)
I am sorry I have a learning disability my grammar issues are not due to laziness but my visual/reading comprehension skills
being below par. I am a auditory learner. I know you guys love proper grammar here and its a challenge I have fought most
of my life.
nbk2000 January 9th, 2007, 10:01 PM

We don't expect perfect, but we do expect the effort to be made.
If you know you have a problem with spelling and grammar, use a word processing program to check your posts as much as
possible before posting them.
Remember, the only person who your errors look bad on...is you.
And the concept of 'learning disability' is a liberal created excuse for laziness, and a government reason for mass-drugging of
the sheeple's lambs. DON'T USE IT HERE.

We don't expect perfect, but we do expect the effort to be made.
If you know you have a problem with spelling and grammar, use a word processing program to check your posts as much as
possible before posting them.
Remember, the only person who your errors look bad on...is you.
And the concept of 'learning disability' is a liberal created excuse for laziness, and a government reason for mass-drugging of
the sheeple's lambs. DON'T USE IT HERE.
You know I was going to send this privately, but I am going to make this public. First of all where the hell is your PHD in
Psychology? I bet you don't believe in PTSD or the difference between that and acute stress disorder.
Guess you don't believe in dyslexics.
Talk to me when you actually know something about the topic.
PS learning disabilities don't fall under the category of something you can medicate and go away. It's like being left handed.
I have installed software with Firefox to catch most of my errors which tend to be spelling.
Maybe before you go off half cocked on a subject you don't have any concept of go learn something about it. Over the years i
have been around here just reading on and off I have seen several people jump down idiots who didn't know anything about a
subject. Don't be a hypocrite.
nbk2000 January 10th, 2007, 02:54 AM

What does Post Traumatic Stress Disorder have to do with ICQ Chat Dyslexia, which is the sloppiness of the mind upon contact
with a keyboard?
And, no, dyslexia is NOT like being left handed, because there are plenty of southpaws who can capitalize the letter I when
referring to themselves.
It's your mother language. If you can't be bothered to master it after so many years, what hopes have you for mastering
anything here?
I didn't get further than the 9th grade, so what's your fucking excuse? :p
InfernoMDM January 10th, 2007, 07:22 AM

Your not a fucking PHD and you have no psychology degree of any kind do you? Which means before you spout off with,
And the concept o f 'learning disa bility' is a liberal created excuse for laziness pretty much is a bunch of shit. By the way
gram mar king if your so damn high mighty Mr. Eng lish major maybe you can tell me if starting a senten ce with the word, A n d
is acceptable in the English language. Maybe you should learn about a topic before spouting off about a topic you don't have
the vaguest knowledge about.
The disability I have has nothing to do with b eing lazy, and it isn t something that s medicated.
Yeah it s a sore spot, b ecause I try ve ry hard to mak e clear p oints online and my ab ility to express thin gs are nt up to
standard.
Hell I was placed in a program for blind people and dyslexia audio books. College texts and the like come recorded so those
who struggle to understand can listen and read along with the text. It hampers grades and makes life very difficult.
Just for instance as you read everything I typed its as if I spoke it to you. However when I read I read it
One
Word
At
Time.
The compression is there its just far more difficult for how my brain functions to get what I want to say, and how to say it on
paper. Hence the problem with sight site etc. I focus on how it sounds on my head and cant complete wrap the difference
around the different words. The definitions I understand, but as I proof read they both come out the same because they
sound the same.
This has gone to far off course. If you have a problem with me fine I don't give a fuck, but don't be a hypocrite when
someone gets on here and claims something is dumb and they don't know shit about.

InfernoMDM - While I don't have a degree in jack shit, I have seen so many lazy cock suckers use the excuse of a "disability"
to fuck around in class and still pass.
Understand where NBK is coming from, he probably has to deal with multiple people a month blaming their lazy asses on
some kind of "disability".
Even if you don't understand where he is coming from, its still best to pretend you do and shut your mouth.
Also, making shit like that public doesn't win you brownie points, it just gets your "lysdexic" ass banned. If you aren't sure if
it's the right word, or the right spelling, do what I do and use another word.
On topic, maybe someone could explain to me why some of those rounds seem to make 2 wound cavities inside the tissue?
Other than the round tumbling, I can't think of a reason why there would be two cavities created a specific distance (about
10cm) from one another inside the body.
festergrump January 10th, 2007, 10:08 AM

InfernoMDM,
What exactly is your condition? Is it PTSD or Dyslexia? Both?
I fail to see any kind of correlation between your grammar problems and PTSD, and spellcheckers do catch Dyslexian slips like
cops catch donuts...
You did mention that you have a spellchecker plugin for Firefox to correct your spelling mistakes, correct? Well, I've used
several spellcheckers in the past when I had something very important to present to an audience, and every one that I've
used might have let the site/sight mistake slip by, but NONE would have overlooked the un-capitalized "I" in post #11... the
very post which you mention the plugin you have. So if you have it but don't use it... That, mister, is lazy.
My advice to you is simple. Apologize to the Forum for losing your cool, stop being lazy, and try to do better with your
grammar in future posts. Alternatively, you could spontaneously combust here before the whole of the Forum (with another
outburst on the matter, and much to the delight of members who enjoy such displays) and assume your position within the
ranks of those who have been deemed worthless by the #1 slack reducer of this site, the Beast.
Alexires,
All the tests shown which resulted in dual cavity formations are labelled as from that of a FMJ round. Other FMJ rounds were
shown only provide a single cavity formation, though. Therefore, I speculate that of all the FMJ rounds tested that DO show a
double cavity formation in the gel, 100% of them have also a hollow cavity within the nose of the projectile (military round,
Geneva convention 'getaround tactic' for severe damage without use of soft-point or hollow-point ammo) which causes it to
tumble on impact (like you mentioned), whereas the FMJ projectiles that show only one large cavity are solid through and
through to the jacket (production for civilian usage, airborne lead reduction at ranges).
My thoughts are that the first cavity should be that of the jacket seperation or disintegration and the secondary that of
retained core-weight on a tumble. Any resulting penetration beyond the secondary cavity should be that of the projectile
resting in an ass end first position (likely) and carrying it's weight throughout the tissue resistance until energy is lost entirely.
Those FMJ projectiles which do not exhibit dual wound cavities likely do not experience jacket seperation to the extent of their
empty-nosed cousins, thus one wound cavity?
One would have to learn more about each round tested besides just it's place of origin, weight, and FPS to verify this, though,
or it's simply a theory drawn from somewhat self-educated guesses...
FUTI January 10th, 2007, 01:05 PM

AFAIR first cavity is created by some drill-like action of round while slowing down inside the balistic gel (or body) since it starts
loosing its balance due to slowing down at certain point, but it then correct its path and go straight for a while until its velocity
drops to a level where it again loose its balance and starts thumbling and in the end it continue traveling its wider end first and
its tip following it.
I think that I read somewhere article about that where it is stated that a soldier hit with such round in the torso can expect that
round will exit with its wider end (or base or whatever they call it) first...that should be memorable exit wound. They design it
that way on purpose because there is a big pressure to ban by Geneva convention all rounds that can fragment inside the
body to augment lethal effect...but none said anything about yaw or blast effects etc., so go figure ;).
Fester is correct Russians make hollowpoints on their 5,45mm round IIRC, but that isn't the only way you can get that
thumbling effect. You just need to fine tune the center of gravity of that round (which can be made with an air bubble among
the other ways). Anyway this isn't my field...so I have something to ask. I found a claim about reason why Russia made
hollowpoints an ammo of choice for their 5,45mm round - it is claimed as more effective against personel armored vest
infantry use today. Is that a bullshit or it has some grain of truth in it?
Thanks for the link its a long time I read anything about this. I find an info about AOA for 6,8mm ammo a treasure. Ripped
from this site 'http://world.guns.ru/assault/as86-e.htm'. Although it used 6,5mm round it is close enough to the story of ideal
round. If you guys search that you must look upon the old stuff when people looked upon those balistic properties with more
attention, before they go with happy-trigger-finger tech approach. "Despite these flaws, it was a formidable and historically
important weapon, and, ironically, its ballistic properties are very close to modern idea of "ideal" assault rifle and its
ammunition."
Anyway it seems that Russians won't quit their 7,62mm round they even consider going back to it. I just seen two days ago on
web info about new version of AK with famous old 7,62mm.

nbk2000 - I would have gladly said I was sorry until you inferred that I was lazy messing up because I was lazy. I don't think
you are a bad person and I have no bit of contention with you as obviously you have had this problem with others. I just ask
you to realize that some of us do have a learning disability, and don't mind being corrected. It helps us catch ourselves, but
many people with this issue like people to understand so we don't have accusations brought upon us by people who don't
understand. I have PMed the other two to explain my point. If you still have a issue PM me as the topic went far enough off
track, which was my fault.
The two wound cavities are from the exact same bullet in theory and practice. I am going to quote the technical info posted on
another site I frequent because my attempts at explaining it in normal terms might loose something, and like I said my
ability to communicate in text isn't as wonderful as it should be. After that I will attempt my own interpretation and any faults
in my train of thought should be more easily corrected.
Question
Could you please explain what physical differences between individual rifles that constitutes inherent variability, and why this
creates dramatically different results. What I'm trying to wrap my head around is what physical differences in rifles (inherent
variability)causes fleet yaw to occur.
Reply
While the concept of Fleet Yaw is new to me, the factors that Doc stated are not. Two apparently identical rifles will still have
minute variations in the quality of their rifling, barrel harmonics, bolt lockup, etc. As a consequence, one may shoot very well
with a particular load, while the other does not and needs something a bit different. That is why you can't depend on someone
else's experience with a particular load to predict a duplicate performance in your gun.
In retrospect, it should have been obvious that if the same load can group differently in an otherwise "identical" rifle, then the
critical bullet performance can vary as well.
The Ammo Oracle on AR15.com has pretty good info. They give velocity parameters/bullet performance for M193 and M855
ammo. However, Fleet Yaw makes that more of a general assumption than a hard border.
Joint Service Wound Ballistic Integrated Product Team: In response to inquiries from the field, the Armys Project Manager,
Maneuver Ammunition Systems (PM MAS) has assembled a team of experts from many disciplines including military users, law
enforcement, trauma surgeons, aero ballisticians, weapon and munitions engineers, and other scientific specialists to answer
the question--Are there Commercial Off-the-Shelf 5.56mm bullets available that are better than M855 Green Tip against
unarmored targets in Close Quarters Battle (CQB)?
Very little accurate public information has been released, but you might wish to review: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/
session9/minisi.ppt (Warning, this is a VERY large file)
The JSWB-IPT recently discovered that Lake City has manufactured TWO distinct types of M80 FMJ over the last several
decades, one using a thick copper jacket that does not fragment, as tested by Dr. Fackler at LAIR and another previously
untested version using a steel jacket that fragments at velocities above approximately 2800 f/s. Yaw and fragmentation occurs
at about the same penetration depth as with copper jacket M80, and is thus deeper than ideal (ie. NL too deep). When the
velocity drops to below 2800 f/s (by approx 100 m from 22 barrel M14), M80 steel jacketed bullets no longer fragment and
instead act like the non-fragmenting copper jacketed M80 FMJ.
Fleet Yaw and the effect it has on identical rounds.

Fleet Yaw is caused by weapon to weapon variations. Projectile impact AOA variability is caused by bullet to bullet variations.
Both appear much more prevalent in 5.56 mm, particularly with FMJ loads, than with larger calibers and match loads. These
are clearly multi-factorial problems of multiple etiology including: ammo and weapon design issues, ammo and weapon
manufacturing variations, individual weapon wear issues, along with both mechanical function and internal ballistics variances.
Questions 2-3
A few key questions:
1. Is this fleet Yaw difference something that only occurs with the M855 62 grain load?
2. Is it a difference between different manufacturer's M-16s or among individual M-16s?
Answer
Although the concept of fleet yaw and other variables in ammunition is interesting and should be kept in mind, I think some
here are worrying about minutia when talking about real-world application of the tools of the trade. Pole-vaulting over mouse
turds so they say...
Precision shooting, although not the topic of this discussion may help illustrate a point. Precision shooting involves isolating
and eliminating as many variables as possible: To compensate for, or eliminate changes in the platform, optics, ammunition,
human interface or environmental concerns from one shot to the next. To make each shot "just like" any other shot under like
conditions, as a predictor of point of impact.
Why is it so hard to believe that mass produced ammunition and weapons would exhibit a degree of variability, even when
produced to a known, certified and quality controlled specification?
When these tolerance variables are combined and stacked upon one another (like "soft" optics mounts on out-of-spec bases
Evil), it is given that certain variability in terms of accuracy and terminal ballistics will be the end result.
Add to all that the fact that the human animal will exhibit different physiological and psychological stamina from individual to
individual. How about my "torso" shot versus another shooters "torso" shot? - target angle, elevation, physique, etc. In some
ways it is as much art as science. Not everything can be number crunched into simple 0s and 1s. But we can predict
performance.
The concern should not be if you have the "right" lot of ammunition or the "best" carbine from a lot proven to be a known
man-killer. The concern should be placing rounds into your intended target until it is no longer a threat.
Doc will correct any errors I make here, but here is some short background on M855 and why I don't like it. When M855/SS109
was developed, we were still looking at the Red Army coming through the Fulda gap. It was developed for the SAW, which
accounts for two of its characteristics. Inconsistent bullets and penetrators. One of the features touted for SS109/M855 is the
penetrator and its greater penetration of hard targets at extended ranges than say M80 7.62mm. When I first read the specs
I had to shake my head. Penetration of a Soviet helmet at 600m? WTF!! A soldier with an M16A2 iron sights can't see a
helmet at 600m, so who cares if the bullet will penetrate? Still true I think, but when you are talking about a SAW putting out a
cone of fire, that accidental hit becomes much more likely and of greater validity.
Cone of fire. This is for the unmilitary, not the BTDT. You don't normally want nice tight groups from a MG. You want a cone of
fire, analogous to a shotgun pattern. You want a spread to a degree so that if 2 bullets miss at 600m, maybe that 3rd one
hits and maybe 5 or 6 hits the guy next to him. Inconsistencies in the bullets will help accomplish this because bullets won't fly
the same way.
These were reasons I have chosen not to purchase M855 for my own use. It is generally less accurate than M193, primarily
due to inconsistencies caused by the steel penetrator. Because it is a heavier bullet, muzzle velocity is less. Fragmentation is
largely dependent on velocity, so effective fragmentation range is less than M193 for any given barrel length. And, at closer
distances, the higher MV of M193 actually results in superior armor/barrier penetration. Only at extended ranges does the
M855 offer superior retention.
Again, as I understand it, Fleet Yaw occurs with all weapons and all calibers.
quote:
Fleet Yaw is the terminal performance variation caused by inherent variability in each rifle. 5.56 mm FMJ had the most Fleet
Yaw induced variability of any projectile caliber & type. 6.8 mm had the least Fleet Yaw variations of any projectile caliber &
type tested.
If you have quality barrels made to the same spec by the same manufacturer, with caliber being the only difference, then the
barrels themselves should be producing the same amount of Fleet Yaw. The rest of it should be attributable to the bullet and
cartridge itself. Quality/consistency of the brass, primer, powder, bullet components & construction and chamber to case fit all
have an effect.
Doc didn't mention testing M193. Nor did he mention other calibers or loads in his statement about different results from
different rifles. Give him a break, he was answering a question, not writing a book!
Since the principal of Fleet Yaw is universal to all calibers and barrels, the effect is there for all. It just appears that for the
loads described here, M855 exhibits the most.
Here is my interpretation. Essentially because these rounds vary in velocity upon impact, and Angle of Attack(see above about
AoA) we see two different wound cavities.
This is caused by the round not yawing on impact. That means if it doesn't have a steep enough AoA or the bullet isn't
traveling fast enough the round will not being to rotate in the body.
Also the break down of the round varies due to minor changes in the jackets strength as well.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/session9/minisi.ppt (Warning this is a large file)
nbk2000 January 11th, 2007, 03:03 PM

By the way grammar king if your so damn high mighty Mr. English major maybe you can tell me if starting a sentence with the
word, And is acceptable in the English language.
Genesis 6:17 KJV
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under
heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
So, yes, I can start a sentence with the word 'And'. :)
Maybe you should learn about a topic before spouting off about a topic you don't have the vaguest knowledge about.

Genesis 6:17 KJV
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under
heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
So, yes, I can start a sentence with the word 'And'. :)

Maybe you should learn about a topic before spouting off about a topic you don't have the vaguest knowledge about.
Sir,
since the text in bible is originally in Hebrew, it's totally different language and as far as I remember it's grammatically wrong
to start a sentence with "AND" or "BUT" in English, although many of us do the same frequently.
However I like the allusion to original poster. :D
nbk2000 January 11th, 2007, 08:38 PM

I was just quoting myself. ;)
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of electrons upon the Forum, to destroy all k3wLz, wherein is the breath of
membership, from under My heaven; and every k3wL that is on the Forum shall die.

"And where God did destroy the Tower of Babel, and caused all men to speak a thousand tongues, NBK rebuilt the Tower of
Babel and challenged the might of the lord, causing all manner of men to speak in the one true tongue." - The Book of NBK.
Interesting how you could look at a lot of topics in the bible and the exact opposite happens here. Where Moses (as the
instrument of God) seeks to part the red sea, we seek to make a red sea (as in Blood red). Where God brings the Prophet to
the mount, we bring the mount down on top of the Prophet.
Where the bible is full of contradictions, we seek true knowledge (whatever that may be) and cast ourselves as the Gods of our
own universe.
Revelations (Apocalypse), Chapter 16:
"....Go and pour out the seven vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."
Whats to bet God synthesized those in his lab from OTC ingredients?
I probably hate you January 13th, 2007, 03:13 PM

Infernomdm you did'nt seem to know much about the wound profile of the m855 the other day when I posted a link about
ballistics , now you are an expert . I decided that instead of probably hating you I do . I just wanted to add you metioned me
getting the kewl totse treatmeant at other sites if I shared my knowlage , well look who is getting grilled here with you kewl
coping BS go away ! The reason , by the way , others (forum rambos) dont like that sight is they go by science and real world
wound ballistics (not your shit forum crap) notice the main contributer was a battle field surgen , not washed up bacon .
If you have read this sight so much why the fuck are you being so belligerant get a clue and swallow your pride when it is
needed or you will be on the fast track to being BFL . A little critisim is'nt always a bad thing learn from your mistakes and quit
making them . Otherwise you could read up and make some HE and not learn from those mistakes and do me a favor .

Interesting how you could look at a lot of topics in the bible and the exact opposite happens here. Where Moses (as the
instrument of God) seeks to part the red sea, we seek to make a red sea (as in Blood red).
I don't believe that that is the intended purpose of this forum:cool: .
NBK that post quoting God was one of the funniest things I have read in a long time.
As far as the ammunition goes I believe that civilians can actually use better ammunition than the military(in terms of
expansion). Civilians can buy hollowpoint ammo, and IIRC the military is required to use FMJ.
nbk2000 January 14th, 2007, 02:37 AM

Ah, but if we started discussing the wounding potentials of civilian ammuntion, we wouldn't be talking about military
ammuntion anymore. :(
But let's not let that stop us. :)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > X:Y:Z KMnO4:Zn:S
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View Full Version : X:Y:Z KMnO4:Zn:S
ultma January 8th, 2007, 03:45 PM

Ok for my next experiment I am thinking 3:2:1 KMnO4:Zn:S by weight ignited with a drop glycerol
Now I have heard sulphur can make KMnO4 quite dangerous, and that KMnO4 flash is dangerous in itself?
The Sulfur would be from flowers of sulphur, the KMnO4 from condy's crystals and the Zinc Analytical reagent grade powder from BDH
Now I also have a 106um s/steel mesh brass sieve.
I was planning on mixing the zinc and sulphur via diaper method and then sieving then re-diapering. I would then crush the condys crystals with a mortar and pestle and mix
with the zinc/sulphur
Now should I sieve the KMnO4 after crushing if so how should I clean it after the zinc sulphur? Or should I just use a different sieve?
Now when mixing the zinc/sulphur with the KMnO4 should I use the diaper method with small amounts at a time or use a container on a long pole? If I use a container on a
pole what would be the ideal vessel, if some sort of plastic is ideal what type?
I was planning on using 15g:10g:5g(maybe 7.5g:5g:2.5g at first) and making a small hollow on the mixture and adding a drop of analytical grade glycerol with a Pasteur
pipette and moving very far away very fast!
Any safety tips and advice would be most welcome. :)
Thanks.
knowledgehungry January 8th, 2007, 04:51 PM

My advice would be to strongly rethink the amount of flash you are making. As a rule when trying something out for the first time(especially when no one else has, but even
when it is a tried and true method) go small.
I would recommend you first find the correct stoichiometric ratios of reactants(you may already have I am not going to double check your math) and then make no more than
a 3 gram total weight batch, try it out uncontained and then gradually experiment with containment, different amounts and different ratios.
Wear safety glasses and leather gloves.

I not planning on confining it yet but yes small would be better as for the ratio I am not totally sure its just a Al flash mix with Zn replacing Al however Zn and sulphur react 1:1
to make Zinc sulphide so 1g Zn to 0.5g of S.
Should I allow more zinc for a reaction with KMnO4 or just leave it be, there are quite a few possible products so its anyones guess, if you think mine looks no good.
I will tape the reaction and post it if its worthy
Well this troubles me since S reacts with Zn and KMnO4 reacts with Zn its a tough one after having a think!
If S only makes it more sensitive and only acts as a catalyst then I can assume it will react with Zn to make ZnS as well? However some is probably turned into SO2 by the air
and the KMnO4?
Now making the assumption that the S will only react with the Zn and the KMnO4 with the Zn so for KMnO4 + Zn it would be 1:1 (if it reacts like Mg and makes ZnO) and for
Zn + S it would be 2:1 so it should be heavy on the zinc and light on the sulphur if I dont want the KMnO4 to be too unstable
So if I keep three parts KMnO4 and one part S I would want 5 parts Zn i.e. 3:5:1 KMnO4:Zn:S.
Or would I be better of with 1:3:1 or just stick with the original idea of 3:2:1.
I will let you guys choose if you want or heck ill try all three at under 1g each for a start (using 1 drop of glycerol to ignite might interfere with a 1g reaction?)
Or maybe even 3:3:2 if I take into account a 2:1 KMnO4:S reaction.
Now thats not going to happen I doubt I can mix it so all those reactions take place equally, unless I make all three powders and stack them one on top of the other, sound
like a good idea?
which one is the most reactive? Which one liberates the most energy?
KMnO4 + S
KMnO4 + Zn
Zn + S
looks like I have some experimenting to do but not so much Zinc :(
I might need to order some more I heard a clumsy technicain spilt the last 500g :cool:
Your ideas and opinions are most welcome.
ultma January 10th, 2007, 12:23 AM

Ok I weighed out the amounts for 4 types of KMnO4:Zn:S flash for a total of 1g each, on the analytical balance at work; 3:2:1 1:3:1 3:5:1 3:3:2
Now I am not sure if glycerol will ignite these small quantities, I tried K MnO4 and glycerol and it didnt do too much for about a minute so I gave it some heat and it
worked.
Now my lab is AC at 20C so I thought it should have happened with in a minute. Its summer in my country but it doesnt get too hot here
So should I try glycerol to ignite or use something else would you guys suggest since I dont have any fuse!
++++++++++
Take a length of wire wrapped around a long pole, and heat the wire red hot with a torch and poke it into the flash. NBK

I Enjoyed that :D , 3:5:1 KMnO4:Zn:S 10g with small pile of KMnO4 in the middle of the powder used as a fuse with glycerol Unconfined. Seemed like the best it could have
been finer KMnO4 and the S isnt top notch.
http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=2en6fe1
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2307/351kmno4zns7lt.jpg

3.3.2 lack luster 2 second reaction
http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=351h0cy
1:3:1 better 1 second reaction

http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=2w6e1j5
3:2:1 dismal 2 second reaction some Sulphur left over

http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=2ez5ndj
I dont have much experiance so maybe 1:3:1 was better but 3:5:1 did look alot better made a whoosh sound and a nice smoke/reaction cloud
edit to answer question:

you can also see in 1:3:1 ther was a strong Zn+S-->ZnS reaction
The way i use the glycerol was making a derpression in the mound and adding some fine KMnO4 powder, just a little and one drop of glycerol.
Yes they were all 10g, which way do you think i should tweek it
4:5:1 as it looked like some zinc was burning in the air.
3:6:1 or 3:5:2 or hey try them all ;)
also if some one else could repeat my experiments that would be great

Were they all 10 gram batches or was the 3:5:1 reaction the only one that was in such a large amount?
The 3:5:1 certainly looked the best, with a formula like this it is very hard to figure out the correct ratios by anything other than experimentation. As you pointed out the Zn will
react with the sulfur to form ZnS, the Sulfur will be oxidized by the air and KMnO4 to for SO2, the glycerine will be oxidized by the KMnO4 as will the Zn. It is very difficult to
predict which will happen in what amounts and first. I think continued testing is the best way to find the optimal proportions.

Were they all 10 gram batches or was the 3:5:1 reaction the only one that was in such a large amount?
The 3:5:1 certainly looked the best, with a formula like this it is very hard to figure out the correct ratios by anything other than experimentation. As you pointed out the Zn will
react with the sulfur to form ZnS, the Sulfur will be oxidized by the air and KMnO4 to for SO2, the glycerine will be oxidized by the KMnO4 as will the Zn. It is very difficult to
predict which will happen in what amounts and first. I think continued testing is the best way to find the optimal proportions.
I edited the post above to answer some your questions
also here is 3.4.1 3.5g slightly confined in a Al foil ball with a wee spout at the top I filled it with the mix then added a small amount KMnO4 to fill the neck.(I used salt to
aproximate the volume needed then tipped it out and used a small funnel to fill it)
Not so scientific but in good fun anyway
http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=2uhwjma

I have a question anyone good with reaction products?
Anyway I tried 4:5:1 10g this time in a Al dish, instead of on tin foil.
But damn, it was alot better than 3:5:1
here 4:5:1 check out the glowing red reaction vessel you know its cooking something good in there.
http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=2iufija
Is there any orange to red metal salt/complex formed with Al & Zn or Mn? However this will only be formed if Zn and Al are in the mix, no foil no rust-like colour, no Zinc no
rust-like colour!
3:2:1 KMnO4:Al:S 2g
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5334/2g321resize6zg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
3:5:1 KMnO4:Zn:s 20g
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3536/20g351resized5xa.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
4:5:1 KMnO4:Zn:s 10g
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7366/10g451resize2vo.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
And for good measure 3.5.1 20g in a foil dish.
http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=2e57clx
nbk2000 January 20th, 2007, 11:25 PM

It's improving. :)
What's all the extraneous background noise? All the chit-chat and 'fuck!' is distracting. Oh, and camera shake. Set the camera on a solid surface or tripod and have everyone
around STFU while filming.
ultma January 21st, 2007, 07:10 PM

It's improving. :)
What's all the extraneous background noise? All the chit-chat and 'fuck!' is distracting. Oh, and camera shake. Set the camera on a solid surface or tripod and have everyone
around STFU while filming.
Yes it is :)
As for the camera it will improve in the future
Now Enthalpy of formation

using Mn3O4=-1386.3 kJ/mol, KMnO4=-813.2 kJ/mol, ZnS=-202.9 kJ/mol, ZnO=-348.0 kJ/mol, SO2=-296.1kJ/mol, K2O=-361.44 kJ/mol, ZnS=361.4kJ/mol
Does this data seem correct?
I get:
6KMnO4 + 13Zn --> 2Mn3O4 + 3K2O +13ZnO
-3502 kJ/mol
12KMnO4 + 13Zn --> 4Mn3O4 + 6K2O +13SO2
-991 kJ/mol
Zn + S --> ZnS
-361 kJ/mol
As for that reaction product I have a few ideas:

MnSO4 reddish
ZnAl2O4 or MnAl2O4 or ZnMn2O4 cant find a colour reference for these, or something along this path it must have something to do with Al and Zinc (as a catalyst or direct
reactant) but its anyones guess.
3:6:1 10g
http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=29c5cw4
ultma January 23rd, 2007, 04:57 AM

Yes it is :)
MnSO4 reddish
I Meant MnS like Hauerite not MnSO4 :o
ultma February 4th, 2007, 05:43 PM

10g 6:8:1 with KMnO4/glycerol fuse. I removed the sound because my damn minions spoke just as it was going off, it made a nice whup sound though. The camera was on a
fence post in full zoom
http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=48rmc9l
so next time I will try
KMnO4:Zn alone and 10:10:1, 20:20:1, 5:5:1, 8:10:1 and maybe 28:12:1

Well no sulphur no dice, 10g 6.9:3.1 KMnO4:Zn was well, dismal!
http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=2lcxrbp
On the other hand 5g of 6:8:1 Blew the lid off of a plastic centrifuge tube with a good lound bang, the video does not do justice, all over in two frames @30fps :D
http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=2r6g0gz
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/589/confined2nm2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Grizzly March 20th, 2007, 11:07 PM

Ive been trying KMnO4/Zn in different ratios and kept getting a slow burn and as I kept adding a little oxidizer it was burning faster. My Question is will KMnO4/Zn make a
report confined similar to at least a KNO3/Al/S report. Have you tried this or have any videos?
ultma March 21st, 2007, 09:38 PM

Ive been trying KMnO4/Zn in different ratios and kept getting a slow burn and as I kept adding a little oxidizer it was burning faster. My Question is will KMnO4/Zn make a
report confined similar to at least a KNO3/Al/S report. Have you tried this or have any videos?
No sulphur No dice, It makes a good report there is plenty of smoke and hot gasses.
Grizzly March 22nd, 2007, 04:41 AM

No sulphur No dice, It makes a good report there is plenty of smoke and hot gasses.
Do you have a video? I can show you a couple of unconfined vids of mine. I don't even know the ratios because I was experimenting around with adding a little more Zn etc.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Nitrom e t h a n e Q u e s t i o n
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View Full Version : Nitromethane Question
NGfan January 8th, 2007, 06:51 PM

I have some very old 100% nitromethane, and I would like to know how to sensetize it. Attem pts such as the harde ner in
epoxy didn't work, an d I would like to know if a nyone knows what salts are formed and ho w, when it is added to sodium
hydroxide. Please do not reply with the standard SEARCH THE FORMS YOU RETARD, as I KNOW that AN works and all that, I
just can't get any.
help appreciated.
sprocket January 8th, 2007, 09:23 PM

N i t r o m e t h a n e i s s e n s i t i z e d b y a m i n e s a n d a l k a l i e s . P o p u l a r a m i n e s a r e a m m onia , e t h y l e n e d i a m i n e a n d a n i l i n e . A m ixture of
9 5 % N M a n d 5 % e t h y l e n e d i a m ine is called PLX and is cap sensitive.
W hen NM is added to a strongly alkaline solution it will lose a proton forming the enolate H2C =NO2-. This enolate (nitronate)
is quite reactive and capable of self-co n d e n s a t i o n . D e p e n d i n g o n t h e r e a ction conditions you will end up with a wide variety of
products.
I found that simply adding the nitrom e t h a n e t o a s t r o n g a q u e o s s o l u t i o n o f s o d i u m h y d r o x i d e y i e l d s m o s t l y d i s o d i u m

m ethazonate. There is a thread on this subject found here: http://www.roguesci.o rg/theforum/showthread.php?t=57 1 7
And yes... searching would have given you all these answers.
NGfan January 9th, 2007, 04:02 AM

Y O U ! yas you, sprocket, are the single best person here. thank you.
btw, I did search m any tim e s a n d k n e w a b o u t a m m onia , ethylene diamine and aniline, I just can't get any. again, thanks :)
Cobalt.45 January 11th , 2007, 01:55 AM

"YOU! yas you, sprocket, are the single best person here."
D a m n! Som e b o d y h a s a f a n !
W atch out or you'll be the "go-to" guy for spoon feeding.lol
NGfan January 15th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 7 : 3 0 P M

Sprocket will spoon feed m e? ...interesting...
LOL, you actually m a d e m e L a u g h O ut Loud, Cobalt

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Question on Ball Mills
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View Full Version : Question on Ball Mills

I've been looking for a way to make a good ball mill. I found another topic from I think around April 2002 that talked about it, but I had 1 question that wasn't answ ered.
I used to be into geology type-stuff a little bit ago and I bought a rock tumbler. This little machine is used to take round jagged rocks and make them smooth and polished.
Does anyone know if these make good ball mills at all?
So far, after looking at the ball mill stuff that I found, the only problem I see with it is that it is VERY small. If you guys do think that it w ould work, I might have to think about
buying a bigger one.
Just a few little things that might help you guys help me.... the box says that it is run off of .15 Amps, 10 Watts, or 60 Hz. I know that isn't much at all, but do you think it
would be enough to make some small batches of Al powder?
Bert January 9th, 2007, 11:49 AM

The larger the diameter of the milling jar, the faster a ball mill works. I converted my hobby rock tumbler to a ball mill when I w as 16 or so. I used .32 cal. lead balls for media,
and made workable BP. The milling time needed w as long- a couple of days with the 4" Dia. milling jar, and the motor needed a push to get it going due to the great weight of
the media. Capacity was perhaps a cup volume of the material being ground. If I'd known then what I know now, I would have used nickels for milling media instead of lead
balls.
Using steel ball bearings and Al foil to produce pyro grade Al will w ork, but it's going to take w eeks, not hours w ith a small tumbler. Search on the topic... There is plenty of
information relating jar size, jar fill and rotational speed of optimum setups on the net. Remember that you need to frequently open the jar to allow the fresh Al surfaces to
oxidize and/or use a coating such as oil or stearine, or you may have a metal dust fire on your hands.
I currently own a 12lb. rated tumbler with a jar 7 1/2" in Dia. This is used with Coors cylindrical ceramic media if I need a small batch of chems ground. It w orks several times
as fast as my childhood rock tumbler, well worth the investment. http://tinyurl.com/yy4url
(edit)
The prices in that link are nearly tw ice what I paid for my tumbler. Look around, I can't remember the seller's name right now.
tmp January 9th, 2007, 02:26 PM

Bert, are you using a Lortone ? My tumbler is a Lortone FD-12 and is about
optimum for the money. On one rock shop page it's selling for $155. Moving
up to the 20 LB model wouldn't be cost effective at $580. Before I bought
the Lortone, I made my 1st Al pow der using this bullet casing cleaner. It
works well but because it's a "vibrating" type device it's noisy as hell ! I can
barely hear the Lortone when it's running. The only real maintenance I've
needed for the FD-12 is to keep it dust free and occasionally put a dab of
motor oil on the roller bearings. Well worth the money IMHO !
No_Fear, it sounds like you have a 3 or 4 LB model and Bert's correct in

stating that it'll take a very long time to mill. I just saw a QT-66 on eBay
but there is no "Buy It Now" price. The link below will direct you to where I
bought my tumbler.
http://ww w.jaderockshop.com

Yes, it's a Lortone 12 lb. unit. I bought it about 6 or 7years ago, it was only about $90.00 for the unit and $30.00 for a spare 12 lb. drum at that time.
no_fear January 9th, 2007, 09:42 PM

Tmp, you are probably right. I'm not even sure if it is even that size. My tumbler isn't anything like the ones that you guys have. It does the same thing, but its actually more of
like a toy version. I w as just wondering if a rock tumbler would w ork as a ball mill. And obviously you guys answered my question. As for buying a bigger 12 or 20 pound
tumbler, theres a rock shop about 15 minutes or so from me that I could check.
Thanks for your help guys. I can definitely get something figured out with this now.
stupid939 January 9th, 2007, 11:30 PM

If you are thinking about making small batches (maybe 100-200g) of aluminum pow der, I may have the thing for you. I originally bought it for black powder, but I bought
some Chrome steel spheres and started milling my machine scraps and coarse aluminum powder.
http://ww w.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber= 46376
It is only 3 lbs. but it works fine for me. I bought 150 1/2" chrome steel balls from a guy on ebay, and as w e speak, I am milling some older coarse aluminum pow der. Last
week I did a batch with shavings and pow der, and It worked great. It took about a w eek to get pow der fine enough for a salute, but it gets the job done. If you search, they
also have a dual drum tumbler.
They have stores all over the country, so you may not even need to pay a shipping charge.

Yeah. There's actually a Harbor Freight store in town here. My grandpa pretty much lives at the store and buys me anything that he thinks I might need and that is on sale
there. It's a bit of a drive from where I live, and the geology store I mentioned is closer, so I think I might try it first. If I get a chance though, I'll go look.
And you said about 100-200g batches... I'm not sure how much I would actually need, but I just need enough to experiment with a little.

The Harbor Freight "Chicago Electric" mill (tumbler?) does work real well, especially for the price.
Plan on going through belts rapidly, especially if you run it at full capacity.
I've taken to using black nitrile O-rings as belts. They outlast the supplied belts 4:1 at least, and cost pennies.

Alright thanks guys. You w ere tons of help.
One last question though. Would it be more cost efficient to follow the plans on this site (http://w ww.wfvisser.dds.nl/EN/ballmill_EN.html) or to just buy one from one of the
places you guys mentioned? And would one of them be easier to replace/repair than the other (betw een homemade and store bought)?

A small ready made one is a quick fix. A home made one will likely cost you nearly as much, or even more if you don't have the materials in your junk collection allready. The
plus side, you can make it to the dimensions and spec's you choose. Also, as you note, anything you build you should be able to fix.
If you make your own, remember that LARGER DIAMETER is preferable to GREATER LENGTH in regards to speed of milling. Large diameter PVC fittings become rather
expensive, and pipe is usually sold in minimum standard lengths so you'll be forced to buy more pipe than you need for a single jar.
Price it out from your suppliers, and decide how quickly you need how much output.
jpsmith123 March 5th, 2007, 08:03 PM

Bert,
I'm wondering, where did you get the coors ceramic (alumina?) milling media you mentioned? Did you get it from the same place you linked to in this thread?
I just got a lortone FD-66, so now I'm looking for an inexpensive source of ceramic media for it.
Also, how many lbs. of it do you use in your Lortone 12 lb. barrel? Thanks.
Bert March 5th, 2007, 08:24 PM

A quick check of ebay shows several suppliers. This one is selling 10 lb. lots of the type I have for $16.00 + shiping. http://tinyurl.com/2dt7ab
I use enough to fill the mill jar 1/2 full. I don't know the precise weight right off the top of my head- 10 lb. is about a large coffee can nearly full.

Thanks for the info. BTW, did you modify your Lortone tumbler to make the barrel rotate faster, or did you leave it alone?

I left it as it came.
Spiffy March 6th, 2007, 01:00 AM

Thanks for all the info about the ball mills, I am considering purchasing a model similar to the one Stupid939 linked. I am just testing it out, as I am new to this. On the topic of
grinding media, how many ball bearings would you need per batch? I see that you can buy both Chrome Steel and Lead/Antimony balls, and I understand the pros and cons of
both, but do I need 100? How quickly do they wear down, or become otherw ise unusable?
Bacon46 March 11th, 2007, 03:04 PM

I built a ball mill that has worked w ell out of junk I had laying around.
If you dont have piles of mostly useless s tuff lying around like I do, you can get all of the m aterial, with the exc eption of the motor, at you local hardware store.
The w iper motor you can get at an auto salvage yard or at All Electronics (http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/DCM-249/400400/
POWERFUL_WINDSHIELD_WIPER_MOTOR_.htm l)for $16.75 plus shipping. Its not the same motor that I used but any w iper motor or low RPM gear motor w ill do. You can probably get
a transformer at All Electronics as well.
Material used:
1. 12 of 4 I.D. ABS pipe (Blac k Sewer Pipe)
2. 1 4 ABS Slip/Thread Coupler
3. 1 4 ABS Threaded Plug
4. A piece of plastic or other non-metallic material cut to fit snuggly inside the pipe. This s hould be som ething that is easy to clean and does not absorb water or other liquids. I used
thick ABS taken from a 4 x 8 sheet. Any plastic that you can glue or otherwis e attach to ABS w ill w ork.
5. 1 4 ABS Pipe Cap
6. A windshield wiper motor out of a 1998 Saturn. Any low RPM gear motor w ill do.
7. 12vdc / 800 watt transformer from a low voltage light. Only needed if you are using a DC motor. Voltage and amperage required will vary depending on the motor used.
8. A 16 x 16 piece of plywood.
9. One pair of drawer slide wheels to support the end of the drum not attached to the motor.
10. One sw itch and some miscellaneous w ire and connectors.
11. Metal strap to secure the motor. Large hose clamps or Plumbers Tape w ork well.
Items 1 through 4 make up the drum.
Item 5 (The Pipe Cap) attaches to the motor.
One end of the drum slips in and out of the pipe cap. The other end rests on the drawer slide wheels.
If you want more capacity you could use a larger diameter pipe.
I use I.D. tubes filled with Bismuth rather than balls, so I guess mine would be considered a Rod Mill . The tubes are Copper, Aluminum or Steel depending on the application.
Use the links below to view drawings and images. The 3D model takes a miniute to download. It's in a slideshow format.
3D Model (http://img235.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img235/2682/1173630264g0m.smil)
Rod Mill Exploded View (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5265/BallMillExploded.jpg)
Rod Mill Section (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8086/BallMillSectionJPG.jpg)
knowledgehungry March 11th, 2007, 04:23 PM

I liked the 3d images. I am curious how you connected the pipe cap to the motor. Looking at the motor in the link gives some help(the window wiper motor appears to come
with a gear box) but I was wondering whether you used epoxy or what(I am ssuming that you drilled a hole through it to recieve the shaft).
I was going to make a ball mill of my ow n since my interests have been shifting more towards pyrotechnics as opposed to HE's lately, but instead of making my own plans I
might just modify yours because I like the design so much!
EDIT: After watching the slideshow again I saw how you connected it, you drilled a hole through the cap and since the shaft was already threaded you put a nut and w asher on
to connect it. I would loctite it (the red kind that doesn't come off) so that the bolt doesn't get loosened during rotation, you may have thought of that already, or you may
have the motor going counterclockwise having a tightening effect rather than a loosening one.

I created a couple of more images that show the connection betw een the cap and the motor. One is a monochromatic X-Ray looking inside the cap. The other is a view from
the Top/Back in monochrome.
The hole in the center is providing clearance for the shaft and the nut that hold the arm to the shaft. The cap is actually bolted to the arm.
The only trouble I have had w ith this design is the bolt holding the cap to the arm has come loose once.
There is probably a better way to make this connection. This just seemed like a good idea at the time. Let me know If you come up with a better method.
X-Ray View (http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/520/capconnectionxrayrp7.jpg)
Top/Back View (http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/688/capconnectionmonochromeuq4.jpg)
knowledgehungry March 12th, 2007, 01:21 AM

I think your method is great. If you do not need to remove the cap all you need is to put some loctite threadlocker Red on the threads of the bolt, the bolts will never come
off(without high heat and power tools). If you want to take the bolts off in the future for any reason you can try using the blue loctite threadlocker as it does a great job holding
bolts from loosening but it is possible to undo them, I use it on almost every bolt on my motorcycle that I take off.
If you don't have access to loctite(you are non-US) you could use an epoxy on the threads. Loctite w ill be sold at Wal-mart, Home Depot etc. in the plumbing or automotive
section most likely.
Once again very nice images.
cracker March 12th, 2007, 02:46 AM

I purchased some Chrome 1/2" media from this company and was very pleased with the price, 500 balls for $21.00. http://ww w.craigballsales.com/index.cfm?
fuseaction= catalog.prodInfo&productID=179 (http://w ww.craigballsales.com/index.cfm?fuseaction= catalog.prodInfo&productID=154&catagoryID=179)
I also bought some of their 27/32" balls for the extra benefit of the different media sizes.
At that price it sure as hell beats out United Nuclear's prices ($50 for 100) and was also better than any Ebay deal I saw for Chrome 1/2".
500 turned out to be more than I needed, how ever the leftovers will make nice projectiles. :D
Needless to say this is a w in-win situation.
nbk2000 March 12th, 2007, 04:43 PM

Everyone w ith a clothes drying machine has a large capacity tumbler. ;)
Make a holder for your 5 gallon media drum, set it for air-dry only (no heat), and tumble in 1 hour increments. :)
chemdude1999 March 12th, 2007, 06:13 PM

"Honey, what the is that racket from the laundry room?"
"Ummm, I'm drying my shoes ... That's it ... shoes." :p
Frunk March 12th, 2007, 06:56 PM

You can also buy an old junk dryer. As long as it works, it's enough, nobody cares if the controls are working except on/off. Open it, disconnect the heating elements, put sheet
metal inside the barrel and you have a huge tumbling barrel.
It just has a ridiculous volume and torque. If it's too big, it's always possible to use the motor only.

I have seen several people modify small concrete mixers into ball mills.

I have seen several people modify small concrete mixers into ball mills.
Actually these would be easier to modify, being that the components are not covered in sheet metal. Also, the one that I have used is variable speed, which can come in handy.
The construction is designed for the weight as well.
Bert March 13th, 2007, 11:24 AM

Yes. They don't work half bad for industrial sized star rollers either.

I was looking in Harbor Freight today and they have several sizes available at all the price ranges. It depends on how much you want to do. You could almost make a small
commercial ball mill out of the largest one. I'm not sure how big the industries use.

I recently bought a Lortone FD-66, as shown on the follow ing linked page:
http://ww w.informulation.on.ca/A55770/cts.nsf/(AllByID)/A73D7645328C1AAC86256F62000A5C7C!OpenDocument
As it comes without a motor, I'm looking around for a motor for it right now. I'll probably end up buying the 1/3 HP NEMA 48 frame motor that Harbor Freight sells for $49.95.
I understand that Lortone doesn't make these (or the FD-12) anymore, but in case anyone is interested, some dealers such as "Kingsley North" apparently still have them in
stock.
Anyway, the FD-66 comes with a drive pulley of 1.5" diameter, and the "load" pulley is 7"; given the diameter of the shaft and the barrel (about 0.75" and 7.5" respectively),
the barrel rotates at around 37 rpm. Instead of the standard pulleys, I plan to use 2" and 5" diameter pulleys, to increase the rotational speed to about 70 RPM.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Dragon Eggs Com postion = HE?
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Exothermic January 9th, 2007, 02:27 PM

T h e d r a g o n e g g s m ix as everyone knows is powerful and in sma ll am ounts uncon fined this mixture can self-confine and
produce a loud report. This is com pletly diffrent to any other low explosive I have seen an d researched, although flash can self
confine, the force produced is minim a l c o m p a r e d t o t h e s e m i x t u r e s .
T h e m i x t u r e I u s e i s t h e b a s i c m ix off pfp using- bismuth trioxide,black copper oxide,m agnalium and Al powder.
T h i s m ix becom es considerably weaker when it is made into balls I.e. dragons eg gs, as a powder though it is extrem ely
powerful.
Here is a video of 1g of drago n eggs powder deflagerating on th e wall.
http://www.apcforum .net/files/Dragone ggs.wm v
I later did another bu r n t e s t u s i n g 4 g a n d t h e n o i s e p r o d u c e d e q u a l l e d t h e s o u n d o f o n e o f m y loudest salutes. Again that

burn test was done unconfined.
W hat are peoples views on this? Could d r a g o n e g g s m i x b e c l a s s e d a s a p r i m a r y h i g h e x p l o s i v e ?
Bert January 10th , 2007, 02:51 AM

T h e m i x i t s e l f , n o . B u t s o m e i n t e r m e d i a t e f o r m ed during the reaction... Yes.
No one really understands the m echan ism of this reaction, it's gone too fast to easily analyze and there's no obvious profit to
b e m a d e f r o m a better understanding of it to a ttract the kind of money it would take to analyze such an ephemeral event.
If you m a k e a s m all crumb of this com p, it heats up, glows, and e x p l o d e s . I f y o u m ake a larger pellet, it h e a t s u p , s o m e
portion of it explodes, then th e fragm e n t s i n t u r n h e a t u p a n d e x p l o d e .
T h e e x p l o s i o ns of the sm all bits are violent, brissant events with no additional confinem ent sim ilar to the e x p l o s i o n o f s m all
crum bs of a prim ary explosive. I certainly wish I knew just what's going o n here, but after 20 years of the e f f e c t b e i n g u s e d
c o m m ercially, no one to m y knowledge has definitely shown how it works. There are still discoveries to be m ade in inorganic
chemistry!
sparkchaser January 10th , 2007, 05:57 AM

By the looks of what goes into the m ix ture, it seem s as though it's just another flash m ixture, albeit a slightly m o r e e x o t i c o n e
than your standard Al/oxidizer m ix.
M a y b e t h e b i s m uth trioxide is a bit m o r e d e n s e t h a n y o ur average oxidizer, causing a mix that self contain s easier but
requires a bit m ore heat to release it's oxygen? It would explain the use of m a g n a l i u m i n t h e m ix instead of just Al.
I'm thinking it's a good medium ground between KnO3/KnO4 and FeO3 as far as reactivity to heat, effectively com bining the
best of both worlds. Lower sensitivity/speed than average flash, higher sensitivity/speed than therm ite with magnalium in the
m ix.
I'm wonderin g what the oxyge n balance of the m is is.
Guerilla January 13th , 2007, 10:55 AM

I a t t a c h e d a n o l d v i d e o o f P b 3 O 4 / M g ( < 1 0 0 m , f l a k e ) a n d P b 3 O 4 / A l ( G e r m a n d a rk) going off. They were 100g both and
spre ad out on the ground in shallow layers (less than 1cm thick), intending to avoid DDT. The aluminium m ixture is on the
right and, as is seen, was quite intense, would indeed b e interesting to k now its whole reaction mechanism .
I'm not preparing such batche s of lead tetroxid e therm ites again anytim e soon though. In retrospect it was unforgivenly foolish
of m e t o m i x a n d h a n d l e s u c h l a r g e b a t c h e s o f l e a d t e t r o x i d e t h erm ites under, at tim es, alm ost abusive conditions
( s o m e t i m es death can be only a few m J's away heh), but well at least this was a testam ent to the energetic nature of redlea d
therm ites.
http://www.filehigh.com /viewvid.php?f=30816&i=319032
Bert January 13th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 7 : 4 0 P M

Mixes with low oxidizer percentages that result in Mg vapor being generated and air burned over the flash pot are used in
theatrical flash. They produce a good concussion. Did you ever try the red Lead / Alum inum m ix by itself?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > I think I might be a very very
lucky man
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ultma January 10th , 2007, 04:02 AM

I use to work in a alum inium reduction line (pot line) when I was a student
I m a n a g e d t o g e t t h i s j o b b e c a u s e a f a m ily m ember wo rked there and it part of there tertiary scho larship
W ell when talking to m y f a m i l y m e m ber ho works there they said they co u l d g e t m e a l u m inium powder very fine powder!
a technique used in the reduction cell is to spray the carbon anode with alum i n i u m o n t h e t o p a n d s i d e s t o p r e v e n t o x i d a t i o n
via the air instead of in the ce ll now in the room t h e y s p r a y t h e a n o d e s t h e r e i s p i l e s o n t h e b e a m and any object up high, a lso
they had to put in a air cleaner to help p r e v e n t e x p l o s i o n , s o w h a t d o e s t h i s m e a n I h a v e a u n l i m ited am o u n t o f a l u m inium
powder I can get for free
I will inspect it in the next or two when I get som e and post a pic if you like
Now the only I am worried about is im purities like dust Al fluorides and soda ash
p.s the sm elter I am getting it from makes the highest purity Al in the world well it did 4 years ago anyway
nbk2000 January 10th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 2 : 3 6 P M

W ell, if it's useable in pyro, you've got yourself a guaranteed m o n e y m a k e r . : )

I'd guess that it would be spheroidal Aluminum powder. I'd furth er guess that the higher up in the room the dust settled, the
m ore desirable it will be.

Now I wasn t g i v e n a n y b e c a u s e t h e p e r s o n t h o u g ht it was too contam inate d, however I told him I still wanted som e .
Now if it is very dirty with dust, grease etc. can I clean it?
I was thinking using a soxhlet extractor to wash it using pet ether 40-60C BP then ABS ethanol would this work?

O k I g o t m y first batch the reason I didnt get it sooner was that the person said he didn't think it was fine enough, not
contam inatio n.
However I sa id its all sweet as I have som e s i e v e s .
The results:
I received 1636.29g of Al
T h e m a i n c o n t a m i n a n t s e e m e d to be carbon from the a nodes, (carbon with a coal tar pitch binder, it also seem s to be quite
alot maybe even 40%) will charing in furnace help remo ve this o r activate it m ore.
Sieve test:
>8m m 1 1 . 1 4 g
8<4.75mm 33.62g
4.75<4mm 12.38g
4<2.8mm 39.17g
2.8<1.4m m 1 1 4 . 1 3 g
1.4<1.0m m 1 0 0 . 7 3 g
1 . 0 m m <850um 7 3 . 9 3 g
850<500um 294.59g
500<250um 430.42g
250<150um 229.97g
150<125um 62.81g
1 2 5 < 1 0 6 u m 21.4g
<106um 111 .13g
So I lost abo ut 100.87g on sieving.

Rod shaped needles of Al would be the best way to describe it.
I post an up close pic when I get hom e .

Next tim e it will be finer powder to start with so hopefully I will have a lot more.

From the description, it sounds like it would be suitable for large glitter stars and com ets just as it com e s . T h e C a r b o n
contam inant will not affect a n itrate
glitter adversely, m ost likely. Silicates will kill the glitter reaction, however. If there's silicate contam ination, it would serve in a
perchlorate oxidized silver
star mix, waterfalls sticks and gerbs. W ith ball m illing, it will probably ma ke flash grade Alum inum . For such a free source of
m aterials, I'd expend the tim e
to find out ju st what it's good for.

starting material
http://img21 7 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 2 1 7 / 1 4 8 / i n t i a l m d 6 . j p g ( h t t p : / / i m a g e s h a c k . u s )
s i e v e s e t u p t h e n s p e n t 1 0 m in in a sha ker
http://img21 7 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 2 1 7 / 8 3 0 2 / s i e v e x c 4 . j p g
1 0 6 u m final m aterial from a distance

http://img20 7 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 2 0 7 / 5 5 0 9 / 1 0 6 a l d i s t a n t c u 9 . j p g
upclose of powder, ca n you se e t h e c a r b o n a n o d e d u s t a n d A l S h a p e
http://img24 4 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 2 4 4 / 8 9 6 2 / u p c l o s e 1 0 6 u m alm u9.jpg
look at the d ark dust on m y g loves when I finished
http://img20 7 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 2 0 7 / 3 1 6 0 / g l o v e s r e d u c e d p y 3 . j p g
what do you guys think
I d o n t h a v e a b a l l m ill so I cant reduce size any further, I will try it in a 3:2:1 KMnO4:Al:S flash this Friday

How did you post a picture in the W C ? I t ' s n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e p o s s i b l e .

the <103um Al, 3:2:1 KMnO4:Al:S in a Al foil dish.
1g
http://video.tinypic.com/playe r.php?v=2mrfcsp
10g
http://video.tinypic.com/playe r.php?v=48p5o4z

I'd suggest trying the finer cuts of your Aluminum in star mixes. It would probably work well in m ixes calling for coarser grades
of atomized Al. If 10 gram s of perm a n g a n a t e / S u l f u r f l a s h m i x m ade with it doesn't go PO OF, it's not going to work well for
s m a ll salutes with perchlorate or chlorate either.
nbk2000 January 19th , 2 0 0 7 , 1 0 : 0 1 P M

W ell, if nothing else, the finer stuff could be use as feed stock for a ball mill, and greatly decrease the tim e n e e d e d t o p r o d u c e
a s u itable grade of pyro powder. :)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > What's your fetish?
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Acrolein January 11th, 2007, 07:39 PM

I just w anted to know and have some laughs. Don't think you'll be prosecuted for what turns you on, we all have w eird views. I personaly like the Japanese and Germans.:) :p
Don't forget blonds!!!!!:D
nbk2000 January 11th, 2007, 08:40 PM

Hentai, but that's no secret. :)
festergrump January 11th, 2007, 08:57 PM

Petite chicks, gals with long legs (looks like you could wear 'em like sunglasses! :) ), women with freckles... oh, and sometimes nuns. LOL, I don't know what it is about a
smokin' bitch in a habit... (yow !). :D (I'm not even Catholic, maybe that's w hy).
Match January 11th, 2007, 09:13 PM

little boys..... oops, shit, I've said too much.
J/k. I like women with big biceps :P
koji January 11th, 2007, 11:09 PM

Japanese w omen have somthing about them that gets me excited. I also have a thing for con chicks, dunno why but the whole variety of 'school girl' to 'demon' crowd is hot.
And drunk horney midgets...(only when its cold though);)

Red heads and school girls. Kind of acceptable (I am at school).
Hentai rubs my budda as w ell.
Think Asuka from Neon Genesis or what Ginny Weasley COULD have looked like (not the movie chick, although I would bend her too).
*drool* Pity there are so few redheads around *sigh*.
zeocrash January 12th, 2007, 09:03 AM

Hentai of course
I have a special place in my wank bank for japanese schoolgirls
also i'm quite a fan of altporn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altporn)
oh and midgets on trampolines j/k

Petite chicks, gals with long legs (looks like you could wear 'em like sunglasses! :) ), women with freckles... oh, and sometimes nuns. LOL, I don't know what it is about a
smokin' bitch in a habit... (yow !). :D (I'm not even Catholic, maybe that's w hy).
Damn that describes my girlfriend, except for the nun part ;).
As for my fetish, playing batman and catwoman, you decide whether I am serious :D.
Corona January 12th, 2007, 03:25 PM

Things that go beep-beep, anything that catches the light, and egg pudding.
ONLY January 12th, 2007, 04:06 PM

Red heads do it for me and sheep.Gotta love that furry goodness.
SafetyLast January 12th, 2007, 04:33 PM

Red heads, petite chicks, pretty much what mr. grump said and flaming rodents shot out of spud guns.
Is it just me or is there a pattern emerging here? Psychotic pyros with redhead fetishes...
ShadowMyGeekSpace January 12th, 2007, 07:32 PM

"light" bdsm.
redheads are hot.
Grapes Of Wraith January 12th, 2007, 09:24 PM

Thats funny.... I happen to like red heads to.
And I thought people w ould think thats strange!

Put me down for the Redheads too, creamy, white, redheads! And I like the carpet to match the drapes! :p
zeocrash January 12th, 2007, 10:27 PM

While we're on the topic of sexy redheads, I just thought i'd mention 2 of my favourites.
http://ww w.bbc.co.uk/cult/xfiles/images/340/scully01.jpg
Gillian Anderson
http://ww w.sf-radio.net/biographien/bilder/alyson_hannigan.jpg
Alyson Hannigan
*drools*
nbk2000 January 13th, 2007, 12:20 AM

Our esteemed leader has a thing for the Red menace too. ;)
cracker January 13th, 2007, 12:53 AM

Pyrotechnic Chemical Reagents and Paris Hilton wearing Latex (in that order):p
sprocket January 13th, 2007, 12:53 AM
Speaking of redheads, let's not forget Kari Byron. Now, you might not like Mythbusters because of their general ignorance (or for some other reason), but Kari is such a cool girl.
A redhead that likes explosions, science and looks really cute as w ell.
Here's a nice picture of her:

http://ww w.kapitalisten.se/w ordpress/wp-content/kari01.jpg
sbovisjb1 January 13th, 2007, 11:45 AM

Trees. It's all about the trees. :P Actually I like women.
FU TI January 13th, 2007, 03:37 PM

Hell on earth... I'm minority here. I like them white, petite, mostly dark (natural) hair and I prefer them to have a brain. Catch isn't fun if you didn't run ;). I looked some
hentai, but that isn't my stuff somehow...maybe I grow a taste for it, but I doubt it. Japanese chick could fit to the model, but they rarely come to my part of the world.
German...subject to think about.

At the moment, brunettes and Japanese schoolgirls. (I'm in school :D)
I think nearly everyone has something for redheads, I used to but it changed.
Oh, and is anybody like me and have an ever changing fetish?
nbk2000 January 14th, 2007, 03:34 AM

The older you get, the less likely your fetish is to change, because you've alredy found out that TS pony-girls in latex are the only things that really turn you on. :p
(Just using the above for illustrative purposes only. Not saying that it's my fetish)

Well that w as more specific than your previous posts...
Sausagemit January 14th, 2007, 01:41 PM

Flexible brunettes wearing tight leather...
Exploding, burning, shooting, ect. of old electronics.
Avocados
In that order
bakersman January 14th, 2007, 02:48 PM

Goth girls ;)
Scat ftw though :P
DeathBlade January 16th, 2007, 09:37 PM

Red heads, goth chicks, and chicks that dig fire, and if they are all of the above all the better.
Jaxxxom January 17th, 2007, 04:24 AM

Yes, yummy reds! But warning, they turn satanic at a certain point in life... you recognize this by the floating above bed, head spinning while spewing pea soup.
colony January 17th, 2007, 05:50 PM

BDSM and scandinavian w omen (red/blonde hair, green/blue/gray eyes and freckles). Luckily I live there. :)
Cancer January 17th, 2007, 11:43 PM

I don't care either way about redhead, but a w oman has to do something with her hair. That's the first thing I notice.
And I agree w ith bakersman. Goth girls are delightful.

Freckled chicks really tickle my fancy now, more specifically freckled brunette schoolgirls, Im ever changing. :D
So when I was looing at the wiki for freckles (dont ask) I found this article.
Increased sexual selection seems global, not just in Scotland.
Soon we will be overrun by redheads and thats a good thing. :)
Scottish redheads 'more sexually attractive'
Scotland's high proportion of redheads may be due to them being more sexually attractive, a leading skin specialist says.
Despite long being the target of music-hall comedians south of the border, red hair could simply be the result of sexual selection, according to dermatology expert Professor
Jonathan Rees.
The Edinburgh University professor, in his inaugural lecture at the institution's medical school, said a single gene carried by up to 40% of Scots w as responsible for red hair.
The finding was part of a study into the link between skin colour and sun sensitivity which found that although not all of those who carried the abnormal melanocortin-1 receptor
were redheads, they tended to be more sensitive to sunlight.
Prof Rees said: "Our w ork suggests that the first human redheads walked this earth 50,000 years ago and then spread throughout northern Europe.
"Why are there so many redheads in Scotland? We cannot be certain that chance did not play a role, but we also suggest that the very obvious selection people make for their
sexual partners based on physical characteristics may be relevant."
Prof Rees said the difference betw een people's sensitivity to ultraviolet rays varied by up to 100 times depending on their skin colour.
He added that while doctors were increasingly warning patients of the risks of skin cancer, ultraviolet radiation w as being used to treat an increasingly w ide range of skin
diseases.
He said: "Questions for the future include not only how can w e improve our current treatment and minimise the toxicity of ultraviolet, but also how can we go on making clinical
discoveries to benefit the 10 or 20% of the population who suffer from skin disease."
sirchrissypoo January 23rd, 2007, 10:28 PM

I really have a thing for Asian women. Chinese, Japanese, Korean, I can't resist any of them. But if I have to go American, I too love redheads. Definitely a trend here.
Hitech_Hillbilly January 24th, 2007, 04:20 PM

I have always been a sucker for a cute redhead. Hell, I even married one. As far fetishes go, a little candle wax goes a long way... :D Just stay away from the hamsters and
ducttape. :eek:
SlitzLV January 31st, 2007, 02:18 PM

Yes! Hentai is the best ^^ !
tweak February 1st, 2007, 08:21 AM

I too have a special liking for red head women. I wouldn't say it's a fetish but it's definately something. I'm quite surprised to see so many similiar tastes.
I had a girlfriend once who used to put her hair in pigtails and dress like a schoolgirl, bit of student teacher role play and shit like that. Left an impression on me, but I'm almost
21 now so I have to be careful about traw ling for schoolgirls! :D
SafetyLast February 2nd, 2007, 04:41 PM

I beleive melanin is the pigment responsible for those irresistable reds.
according to w ikipedia: Pheomelanin is also found in hair and skin and is more abundant in fair-skinned humans. Pheomelanin imparts a pink to red hue and, thus, is found in
particularly large quantities in red hair. Pheomelanin is particularly concentrated in the lips, nipples, and vagina. Pheomelanin also may become carcinogenic when exposed to
the ultraviolet rays of the sun. Chemically, pheomelanin differs from eumelanin in that its oligomer structure incorporates the amino acid L-cysteine, as w ell as DHI and DHICA
units.
So how about Pheomelanin in a DMSO solvent carrier as a mad scientist type weapon? I'm sure it would be more complicated than that how ever.
Gammaray1981 February 2nd, 2007, 04:48 PM

Redheads, or very dark brown/black. Definately long hair though. As to non-female types, light bdsm, lolicon. (Because cartoons don't get mentally scarred for life.)
ShadowMyGeekSpace February 2nd, 2007, 07:34 PM

You've obviously never seen Elfen Lied. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfen_Lied#Societal_topics)
nbk2000 February 2nd, 2007, 10:18 PM

Throughout the series, incidences of human sadism are seen, from casual beatings to pedophilic rape to outright killing.
Sounds like my kind of show. :)
PYRO500 February 3rd, 2007, 05:53 PM

I always had a thing for hard BDSM / torture.... but to each his own :D.
ShadowMyGeekSpace February 3rd, 2007, 07:56 PM

You'd love it NBK, infact check your privmsg.
rob_oblivion February 4th, 2007, 08:45 AM

Spanking schoolgirls......
(my first post hello folks!)
megalomania February 4th, 2007, 09:09 AM

Mmmm, redheads, so beautiful, so rare, my favorite. Heather Carolin, if your a fan, send me a PM :) .... I am an outfit guy myself, dress a girl in the right kind of clothes and
she will get my attention. I also really like a w oman in tennis shoes, just the shoes.
13000 February 4th, 2007, 02:08 PM

My partner looks like shes 15 and a red head. Perhaps I could get her to dress as a school girl? Photo's to come!
2ndamendment February 5th, 2007, 01:32 AM

Italian women. Oh the joys of owning a super model.
oh i forgot thats only if there Korean, and on eBay.
Chris The Great February 5th, 2007, 01:55 AM

So how about Pheomelanin in a DMSO solvent carrier as a mad scientist type weapon?
"Soon, Mr. Bond, ALL w omen will have red hair! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!"
*presses big red doomsday device style button*
:D
ShadowMyGeekSpace February 5th, 2007, 02:19 AM

Not only all women, but all men too.
PYRO500 February 5th, 2007, 11:06 PM

Sounds like rob_oblivion w ould like "the girls boarding school" look it up w hy dont ya? for those with more heavy tastes (like myself) I prefer torture galaxy (invitation only)
paintoy.com and sometimes beckys-dungeon.com if I feel like a taste of something on the mild side :-) .
If you know w hat you are doing, and have a few visa gift cards, you can get free temporary access to many of these sites for up to 30 min at a time :-)
Plenty enough for a determined individual with a fast connection and the right browser plugins to rape thousands of pictures or a few videos.
INFERNAL-AFFAIRS February 6th, 2007, 12:39 PM

Blowing up fruits "specially watermelons" with spas 12 shotgun besides my early twenties neighbour, female neighbour to be specific.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Help a know nothing.
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W hile at the Doctors recently we got into a discussion of a subtance used for in th e past for the treatm ent of infections of the
neither regions, but as m y doc is from Serbia I couldn't get the English nam e for this marvelous substance, but I got a quickly
jotted chem ical form ula, here it is..
KOH2MN
a n d a h a l f E n g l i s h p h r a s e o f " P o t a s i u m Hyper Manganate", can you guys identify what the hell this stuff is, just purely in the
intrest of letting me know wha t the hell it is? Oh, yes I did look on the internet and found nothing.
nbk2000 January 12th , 2007, 12:02 AM

Potassium Permanganate is what you're looking for.

Potassium Permanganate is what you're looking for
R e a l l y , I l o o k e d t h a t u p a n d i t h a d a d ifferent chemical formula? O h well, I probably wrote it down wrong. Thanks.
nbk2000 January 13th , 2007, 06:12 AM

W ikipedia En try, for what it's worth:
Just under two hundred years later a Londoner named Henry Bollm a n n C o n d y t r a i n e d a s a c h e m ist. He had an interest in
disinfectants and m arketed a number of products including ozonised water. He found that when he fused pyrolusite with NaO H
and dissolved the product in water it gave a solution that had good disinfectant properties. He patented this solution, and
m arketed it as Condy's Fluid.
The problem was that the solution, although quite effective, was not very stable. This difficulty was overcom e b y u s i n g K O H
rather than NaOH. This gave a m ore stable material, which had the added advantage of being easily converted to the equally
effective potassium p erm anganate crystals.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W hat is a Dangerm o u s e ?
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Cobalt.45 January 12th , 2007, 01:35 AM

I was recently over at The Crucible, and happened across a project by a m ember there, ca l l e d D a n g e r m o u s e .
S e e m s that the offer is being made to give away (for th e cost of postage) quite a bit of in formation. On C D, I think.
Has anybody got any more inform ation on "Dangermouse"?
festergrump January 12th , 2007, 01:59 AM

S o u n d s h o k e y t o m e. W hy not put it out to the people via a torrent instead of requesting an address to send it to? Anonimity
m ust be m aintained regarding our topics of interest, or you know what happens.
I'll pass...
nbk2000 January 12th , 2007, 02:06 AM

If giving your address to an unknown person in exchange for possible child-porn entrapm ent bait is your idea of a good tim e ,
go for it.
megalomania January 20th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 5 : 0 2 P M

Dangermouse was the name of a cartoon on Nickelodeon in the 80s as I recall. He was a British sp y, and a mouse, that lived
in London in a letterb o x .
As for the da ngerm ouse of this topics subject, all I can say is his m otives are in the right place since he is offering a wealth of
knowledge for free (a ll the best things in life are free, p l u s s h i p p i n g a n d h a n d l i n g ). However, I would recom m e n d h e o f f e r t h e
information via torrents as well as on disk just so people know what they are getting.
Many of us d o not have the high speed bandwidth necessary to download hundreds of MB, or even GB, of d ata. For them a
d i s k i s a n e x cellent com prom ise. He himself may not have the bandwidth to host a torrent, upload to a FTP, or other file
hosting service.
W i t h t h a t s a i d , h a s d a n g e r m o u s e e s t a b l i s h e d h i m self as a credible contributing m e m ber of that website (knowledgeable)? Is

h e a J o h n n y - c o m e-lately to th e scene (fedbait), or an e stablished m e m ber? Has he indicated exactly what files he is offering
on his disk (table of contents)? Is he willing to send a copy to a mem ber who can serve up the files in a torrent? All of these
q u e s t i o n s s h o u l d b e a d d r e s s e d for the suspicio u s t o f e e l a t e a s e .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Bars Leaks Liquid Aluminum
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Shalashaska January 13th, 2007, 02:22 AM

After hearing for the longest time that aluminum powder was available at many hardware stores, I went around looking for it specifically. After two hardware stores, I went to
go browse the auto section at Wal-Mart, and to my surprise I found "Bars Leaks- Liquid Aluminum." This is a mixture of aluminum flakes and a peculiar, high viscosity, liquid. It
is used for radiator leaks.
When I saw this, I immediately became very excited, thinking to myself, I'll just filter out the liquid and have approximately 150 mesh aluminum powder for only $2.53!
It's not that easy :(
I knew from the start it wouldn't be as easy as filtering out the liquid, due to the high viscosity, but I easily solved this in my head by diluting it. To sum up the subsequent two
hours, I tried filtering the dilute mixture into a cup, and it still wouldn't go through, then tried tightly tying a filter around a bottle cap and squeezing it out, which worked better
but at about 1 drop/10 seconds.
So, pretty much, here's my question... does anyone know of a more time efficient filter suitable for the mesh of the aluminum? Or should I just give up on this stuff and ask
my friend to use his bench grinder on a chunk of aluminum?

There is a reason that the product you bought was advertised as a leak stopper. You can't use a filter to separate wet aluminum from something, the aluminum will "clog" up
the filter. That's how it stops your radiator from leaking.

The first thing that comes to mind is a makeshift centrifuge.... got a high speed electric motor, a counter weight, and something strong enough to secure the two satellites?
Cindor January 13th, 2007, 06:17 AM

Shalashaska: you can try to use that as a fuel, something like AN/LAl, KClO3/LAl, KNO3/LAl, or the oxidizer of your choice...

At what ratio did you dilute it? That stuff comes really thick. Consider that it is made to work well in an environment normally capable of holding several gallons (usually) of
coolant with the same viscosity of water, maybe you didn't dilute it enough to filter through.
Also, what are you using as a filter right now? A coffee filter? Maybe a smooth fabric filter would work better...
I like the centrifuge idea, though. Worthy of making one if it works for larger scale acquisition.

Since it is aluminium flakes, rather than dust/powder, simply use a tea strainer or sieve. The flakes won't go through the sieve, but the thick liquid will, and you will be able to
add water/alcohol/oil/solvents without issue. Your drain rate will be a lot faster, too, as the holes are hundreds of times bigger.

JacksComplete: Actually, the aluminum flakes looks to be a rather high mesh, and definitely too big for about the size of a window screen if that's about the size you're talking
about. Otherwise, I'll check out the kitchenware section at Wal-Mart tomorrow, maybe.
The centrifuge idea sounds fantastic... but do you think an electric motor from a house fan would work? If it goes fast enough for the centrifuge, I could simply nail it down, tie
on a short plank, and duct tape a couple bottles to the ends of the plank.
festergrump : The dilution ratio was approximately 1.5-2:1, water to aluminum. Should there be more water?
And BTW, yes, I was using a coffee filter; do you think a t-shirt would work? I read a post by nbk about a week ago about collecting rust from a chemical reaction, and he
simply poured the yield through a t-shirt.
knowledgehungry: Thanks for the info, as I actually had no idea how a thick liquid mixed with aluminum could clog up leaks...
Cindor: I really don't think this mixture would even deflagrate when mixed with any oxidizer, unless the liquid had some properties I'm not aware of.
For those without experience with this crap, the liquid actually turns into a strange fabric, which reminded me of the collectings in the filter of a dryer; I discovered this when I
tried boiling instead of filtering. Big potful of the crap :eek:
nbk2000 January 14th, 2007, 03:59 AM

January 1998 Amateur Scientist column in Scientific American. The design for a microcentrifuge uses a commonly available Osterizer blender and a PVC pipe cap for the rotor.
This picture should be enough to get you going:
http://www.scifair.org/+images/KitchenCentrifuge.gif

The centrifuge idea sounds fantastic... but do you think an electric motor from a house fan would work? If it goes fast enough for the centrifuge, I could simply nail it down, tie
on a short plank, and duct tape a couple bottles to the ends of the plank.Assuming you balanced it correctly that would work, but you'd need more than duck tape. Your
centrifuge must be balanced and you must use strong materials, the inertial forces generated by a centrifuge are pretty massive, especially at higher RPMs. NBK's gif looks
better for a small implimentation, but I don't see a blender scaling well to larger operations.
edit: I just had a comical idea.... do you own a ceiling fan?
Shalashaska January 14th, 2007, 12:42 PM

Yeah, I do have ceiling fan, but questions may arise pertaining to its disappearance:)

edit: I just had a comical idea.... do you own a ceiling fan?
That's the first thing I thought of but most common new ceiling fans have an odd number of blades and the most common number is 5 :(
So unless you have an old 4 blade one or one of them fancy 3 blade ones, looks like the most common way to do it with a ceiling fan would be to strap 5 of whatever your
trying to seperate to the fan.
Have you tried solevents on it and then tried pushing it through a filter? Mabye a little bit of acetone or some laquer thinner...
And trying to get some mid grade at best powdered aluminium out of coagulating fluid is beyond retarded but still may come in handy one day, so keep us updated. :D

What is the liquid mix? Is it hydrocarbon based? Do you know anything at all about it?

And trying to get some mid grade at best powdered aluminium out of coagulating fluid is beyond retarded but still may come in handy one day, so keep us updated. :D
I have decided, after finding this http://www.barsproducts.com/MSDS.cfm, which has a list of Bar's Leaks products, including good ol' fashioned aluminum powder, that you are
absolutely correct. Even after heavy dilution, the liquid is impossible to get rid of every speck...
I've decided to go with a previously mentioned method, being a bench grinder and hunks of aluminum.
FUTI January 17th, 2007, 07:11 AM

I looked MSDS you posted and it looks like water based product emulgated with some acrylic polymer I guess. Shame we can't use acid to precipitate that polymer since Al will
also react, but if you find some polycationic polymer or cationic detergent you can give it a try...those things aren't compatible and precipitate each other so you can filter that
from water.
You figure out how to separate the organic material from Al. Heating and burning is just to much dangerous for me...
OT that page also mentioned powder Al stop leak....so why didn't you buy that one man?

If it is an acrylic/aluminium mix with water, could you not dry it and then burn it anyway? Or mix in more fuel and then dry it?
SafetyLast January 18th, 2007, 06:01 PM

I bought some "Aluma-Seal" stop leak the other day, thinking that it was solely aluminum powder as Ragnar Benson says in Homemade C4.
It comes in 20 gram tubes which contain what looks like sawdust.

The msds lists the ingredients as ALUMINUM; (PIGMENTS) (SARA 313), CELLULOSE (PAPER FIBER); (VEHICLE), and STEARINE; (CATALYST).
Is there any way to seperate the aluminum powder (what little there is) from the rest of the powdered material or should I just forget about it?
A better source for aluminum powder would be West System 420 http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:-TI_51opvtsJ:www.westsystem.com/webpages/userinfo/safety/
MSDS420.pdf+west+system+420&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
It's about $18 a pound and fairly high mesh.

Why not try decantation? If you have a tall, but narrow, glass or plastic tube, let the aluminum settle, and then decant of the supernatent liquid with a pipet. You won't get it
all, but that will get most of it. A bit of cotton in the pipet tip can filter out the aluminum. I would say a solvent wash followed by conventional filtration would get rid of the
rest, or follow up with furthur decantation after washing/diluting.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > K3wl bashing
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sbovisjb1 January 13th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 9 : 1 9 P M

Considering the level of K3wl bashing on this forum (for good reason). I decided to nominate this chap, the glorious title of
dum bass of the year.
W atch and Laugh. :D
http://www.compfused.com /directlink/4283/

Hey lets send this kid to Iraq to defuse IEDs, I'm sure he could do at least one. :D
tmp January 14th , 2007, 12:22 AM

Nature's way of thinning out the KEW L herd ! There was a video som e y e a r s
ago on the internet where kewls were apparently m ixing HTH and isopropyl
alcohol with the expected results.
file January 14th , 2007, 12:42 AM

I nearly fell out of m y s e a t l a u g h i n g ! I s e c o n d t h e n o m ination for dum bass of the year.
Shalashaska January 14th , 2007, 01:07 AM

Holy god..... what an idiot... W hat I fin d m ore hilarious than the engulfm ent in flame, is h is little k 3wl cam e r a m a n f r i e n d ,
m aking sure to get a good picture in! :D This rem inds me of what I did when I was 14... throwing all the pressurized gas cans I
could find into a fire... good tim es, yet childish.
nbk2000 January 14th , 2007, 03:29 AM

H e d i s p l a y e d fine form with the difficult com bination of a 360 m id-air spin, face-grab, and triple-ground roll! :D

There was a video som e years
ago on the internet where kewls were apparently m ixing HTH and isopropyl
alcohol with the expected results.
Still around :D http://www.thatvideosite.com / v i d e o / 3 7 2 n a m e d ' d u m b kids' for obvious reasons.
EDIT: If you listen carefully you can hear them say "it's not dangerous" :p heh
EDIT#2: http ://www.thatvideosite.com /video/252 Couldn't forget this one .
Horrigan January 14th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 3 : 2 8 P M

Not funny, but... funn y anyway :D , hope the boy didn't lost his hand ^^
C h l o r i n e + a l c o h o l i s n o t a g o o d i d e a , b u t s h a k i n g t h i s k i n d o f m ixtures is really stupid :D, I'm not an expert at pyrotechnics
and explosives but never I wo uld do such a stu p i d t h i n g : e e k :
The stupidest is obsioulsy this one:
http://www.thatvideosite.com/video/252
no com m ent :D

W ith friends like these who needs enem ies? I wouldnt want a kid like that to be my friend, if he is dyslexic and clea rly is,
b e c a u s e h e d i d n t r e a d t h e l a b le. Then the only question rem ains is the "neurological disorder" that im pares his reading natural
(born with), or brought on by his Stevo reinactm ents?

OMG! And they wonder, why we call Muslim s a few screws loose.
http://www.compfused.com /directlink/4364/

Right, this guy is an assh***, but I do n't think they're all the sa me, I just think this guy is an extremist idiot...

I agree with you there. I know about 3-5 muslim s from Iran and t h e y a r e e x t r e m l e y n i c e u n d a n g e r o u s p e o p l e .
knowledgehungry January 14th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 4 : 1 9 P M

Actually I don't think that that guy is an asshole. W hen com pareds to the way m any people treat their wives , not ju st
Muslim s(but especially Muslim s) the rules put down are humane. The rules were no bruise s, not in public and no broken
bones, he also said that your wife is not your property. He is a m o d e r a t e n o t a n e x t r e m ist by any stretch of the ima gination. If
you have ever seen the way m any Muslim women are treated in public you will realize this. I do not know from experience how
Muslim s wom en are treated around the world, but in Am erica som e t i m e s i t s e e m s that m e n b e c o m e Muslim s just to a b u s e
wom en, especially black m en.
I personally thinking that hitting a wom an is atrocious, however these rules when applied to the discipline o f children are fine. I
would imagine that m any Muslim s a n d m a n y o f t h e e x t r e m e f u n damentalist Christians would say that these rules are ridiculous
because wives ARE property.

Hitting a wom e n , n o m atter th e circumstance is unnaceptable (in a non d efense situation. Obviously if she com es at you with a
knife, you act). For all references in the Koran concering wom en, go here. http://www.mwlusa.org/p ublications/positionpapers/
quran.html Edit: If yo u hit a wom en, of course you will cause bru ises, pain or hurt. Its a oxymoron, hum a n e b e a t i n g .
Gerbil January 14th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 4 : 5 2 P M

That guy really deserves to be rem ove d from the gene pool. Idiot!
knowledgehungry January 14th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 5 : 1 8 P M

I wasn't defe nding violence against wom en, believe me I find it unacceptable too. My point is that this guy is not an extrem ist
nor even particularly worthy of criticism, in my opinion it is a step up and in the right direction from the way many people think.
It is not good but it is better.

I think there are too m any prejudices, this guy is probably the sham e o f m u s l i m s, I think most of them are more intelligent
than him.

I think there are too m any prejudices, this guy is probably the sham e o f m u s l i m s, I think most of them are more intelligent
than him.
I f h e w a s t h e " s h a m e of the m uslims", then wh y was he being interviewed on live televisio n a s a n e x p e r t ? Y o u h a v e to raise a
few questions as to why most muslim nations are radical. Iran, Saudi Ara b i a , Y e m en, Syria, Palestine all have heavy anti-west
views. Its sadenning. I can't a nswer as to why this is, but one must reme mber that the Persians and the other m o d e r a t e
Muslim em pires were vilolently taken over by the W ahhabites (followers of the W a h h a b i s m b r a n d o f I s l a m ) a l s o s o m e o f t h e
groups hate each other, such as the Sunnis and the Shiites.
I probably hate you January 14th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 6 : 2 2 P M

:D I think that guy from the first link was Infernom dm now I see where h e got his nam e f r o m

Hitting a wom e n , n o m atter th e circumstance is unnaceptable (in a non d efense situation. Obviously if she com es at you with a
knife, you act.)
No "R EAL" Man would hit a wom an, end of discussion.
nbk2000 January 15th , 2007, 02:03 AM

I n a n c i e n t j a p a n , t h e h u s b a n d h a d a b s o l u t e d o m i n i o n o v e r h i s h o u s e a n d f a m ily.
The child obeyed the parents, the wife the husband, the husband his liege lord, and all obeyed the emperor.
As long as the wom an was m arried to the husband, she accepted his control over her, and he could beat or kill her at anytim e,
as was his right.
Once western m en were polluted by the idea that women were their equals, things started downhill until we've arrived at the
poin t were we are now, with girls acting like who res and wom en p ersuing careers instead of family. :m ad:

I n a n c i e n t j a p a n , t h e h u s b a n d h a d a b s o l u t e d o m i n i o n o v e r h i s h o u s e a n d f a m ily. The child obeyed the parents, the wife the
husband, the husband his liege lord, and all obeyed the emperor. As lon g as the woman was married to the husband, she
acce pted his control over her, and he could beat or kill her at anytim e, as was his right.
Once western m en were polluted by the idea that women were their equals, things started downhill ...with girls acting like
whores and women persuing careers in s t e a d o f f a m ily.
I tell m y dog to sit, he sits, I tell m y dog to roll over, he rolls over, I tell my dog to jump into a fire, he jum ps into that fire,
without question, with out hesitation, because I am the Master, a nd we both know it, so as I said before a "Real" m an wouldn't
hit a wom an because he wouldn't HAVE to hit his wom an.
Cancer January 18th , 2007, 12:04 AM

I'm not sure if this guy is a dumbass, but he dam n sure got what was com ing to him. And I bet the kid on the bike was
laug hing his tits off.
http://www.strangeland.com /20392

http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=xR_fSNuLcVM&NRThis is about as k3w1 as I've seen recently. Between the spelling and the
high ly sophisticated technique s, I am in awe. I particula rly enjoyed the test burn about 6' from the gas tank of daddy's car.
festergrump January 18th , 2 0 0 7 , 1 1 : 4 7 P M

Holy shit, what a bunch of morons, Bert...
Here's an oldie but goodie for any who haven't seen it yet:
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=LA4u n0I0k-E
Un-fricken-believable assclowns in action (pun intended).
tiac03 January 19th , 2007, 01:02 AM

HAHAHA its funny for 3 reasons
1. He enjoys sticking things up his arse (now everyone knows).

2. W hen the rocket burned him h e c l e n c h e d a n d h i s a s s h o l e h a d t h e g r i p o f d e a t h o n h i s r o c k e t .
3. Nothing fu nnier that watching som eone running with a skyrocket thats about to burst sticking out from his arse hoping to get
away from it. Coyote and road runner like.
As for the arab talking about Beating women...
Its pretty bad state of affaires when a leader of sorts has to go on TV to tell the general population to be less Harsh when they
beat their wo m e n .
... Maybe he was talking abou t spanking....
1. Don't spank your wife in public

2. Don't spank your wife infront of your kids
3. Don't spank you wife hard enough to cause bruising or bleeding.
Thin k about it... maybe arab wom en like that kind of stuff...:D
Shalashaska January 19th , 2007, 07:43 AM

http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=Fo0VY_R G5s0&mode=related&search=
Only you can prevent forest fires.
drunkenpanda January 22nd, 2007, 09:30 PM

W ow. I almost feel sorry for that "ass-clown." That is the first tim e I h a v e s e e n t h at video and the burns he m u s t h a v e
recieved m ust have h urt like a bitch:o
Anyways, I pray to God that when I have kids they neve r becom e that stupid.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Favourite com mercial.
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View Full Version : Favourite commercial.

W hats your favourite comm ercial/s?
Mine ATM is this 'http://content.yieldm a n a g e r . e d g e s u i t e . n e t / a t o m s / a 6 / b b / a 6 b b 4 0 4 1 5 e 1 f 3 c 3 2 3 f a e 0 4 7 9 3 b c 0 2 6 9 6 . g i f '
W hat makes it even funnier is they m i s - s p e l t S a d d a m : p
I a l s o l i k e t h a t J o h n W est com m ercial on TV when som e g u y b e a t s u p a b e a r t o g e t h i s f i s h b e c a u s e J o h n W est only serves

the best.
Best for last. That Got Milk com mercial (its an old one) when the kids won't drink their m ilk, they tell their m u m M r . J o h n s o n
(we will call h im ) never drank m ilk and his fine. They look over to Mr. Johnson he waves and goes to pick u p the wheelbarrow
when his arm s snap off and is left with these steaming hollow stubs. Im m e d i a t e l y t h e k i d s g r a b a s m uch m ilk as they can and
gulp it down like they havent drank in a few days. :D
cyclosarin January 20th , 2007, 06:58 AM

W hat about the fake VW add with the suicide bom ber?
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=ad4fagTyaM4

HAHA that co m m ercia l is hilarious.
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=MFFBISt1gzU I ve f o u n d t h e link for the got m ilk com m ercial I s a w a l o n g t i m e a g o , n o t

quite how I rem e m b e red it.
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=36ua-sSf4yk And here is the john west com mercial.
I s n t Y o u t u b e u s e f ul. :)
festergrump January 20th , 2007, 11:28 AM

The two UK Ford Sportka com m ercials imm e d i a t e l y c o m e t o m ind as m y favorites:
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=MtQ Y a 4 m Q Glc
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=d_BZWjCQv4A
Followed by the Canadian Breast Exam :

http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=a32dHdxqHdI
[EDIT: Also, not a com mercial but funny as hell all the same: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5moO h R l g u k
C a m el Toe song...]
FUTI January 21st, 2007, 09:22 AM

T h e H e i n e k e n b e e r c o m mercial with Mars landing...and the leading m oto "If there is life there the Dutch will find it" and rove r
m etam orpho sis to a m ini-bar is m ine favourite in this year.
sbovisjb1 January 21st, 2007, 01:16 PM

Burger King Texas Double Whopper: :D
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=PbGEOob5x4g&m ode=related&search=
Bonus January 21st, 2007, 01:44 PM

If I had a kid like this...
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=Fitxo fd7kOA&mode=related&search=
megalomania January 21st, 2007, 11:38 PM

Ooh, I am truly insulated from the evils of advertising. I have not watched TV in m ore than a year, closer to 1.5 now. I
download everything from the net, com m ercial free. Eve n before that I recorded everything on m y three VCR 's and always
s k i p p e d c o m m e r c i a l s . I e v e n c l o s e d m y e y e s s o m etimes while fast forwarding so as not to see the comm ercial. I even change
the channel on my radio with the presets when a comm ercial comes on, and in the unlikely situation that all six are spewing
c o m m ercials, off it goes.
I highly advise this viewing theory. I watch TV for the sh ows, not to be manipulated into wanting or buying somethin g.
C o m mercials and advertising are evil, and huge wastes of time (not that watching TV is all that constructive to begin with).
nbk2000 January 22nd, 2007, 02:47 AM

W ell, thanks to TiVO and the like, the advertisers are em bedding their advertising in the shows as well.
Thin gs like the characters are watching TV, and a com m ercial com es on the TV in the TV show! :m a d :
Product placement is well known.
Sublim inal em b e d s a r e a l s o c o m m o n , t h o u g h n e v e r a d m itted to.

anonymous411 January 28th , 2007, 05:41 AM

Sorry, haven't had a TV in 10 years. I watch C-SPAN 1, 2, and 3 on the internet, Lewis Black clips on YouTube, and that's about
the long and short of it... LOL
Interestingly enough, there are severa l online comm ercial archives. Someone once said if you want to understand the
psychology o f the Am erican public, watching the five mo st popular TV shows will tell you everything you need to know. I
s u p p o s e t h e s a m e c o uld be said of com mercials too...
http://cliplan d.com/index_tvc.shtml
nbk2000 January 28th , 2007, 06:06 AM

You're not m issing anything, and netiher am I, since I too haven't had a TV in ye ars. :)

*lau gh* I'm about 20 and I've barely ever watched TV in m y whole life, so forgive m e if everyone else knew this, but in Aus,
the com mercial TV channels are now showing their com mercials at the SAME TIME so you no m atter where you go, you will get
caught with com m ercials.
They might start doin g this on radio as well (which would suck, but I don't listen to that either).
I just hate the idea of working for 8-10 hours a d a y , a n d c o m i n g h o m e a nd watch ing TV till you go to bed *shudder*. Hell, I
don't even work and I hate the idea.
nbk2000 January 28th , 2007, 11:02 AM

T h e r e a s o n I s t o p p e d l i s t e n i n g t o c o m m ercial radio was for the very reason of they almost always had their comm ericals on at
t h e s a m e tim e ! : m a d :
Turns out there's only a couple of radio networks in the US, so it'd be easy enough for them to come to agreement to do the
c o m m ercial synchronization, o vert or not.
It's really going to suck when they eventually get around to banning the internet as we now know it, and turn it into yet another
A O L T I M E W ARNERDISNEY outle t for com merical crap.

'http: //www.savethein t e r n e t . c o m ' It's com ing, sign the petition, they wouldn t let m e b e c a u s e I m n o t A m erican. :(

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > BP blasting cap
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Wiltshire January 16th, 2007, 02:01 AM

If I were to take a copper tube 2 inches long with two end caps and filled it with BP and detonated it with nichrome wire, would it have enough force to detonate Ammonium
nitrate?
mil&co January 16th, 2007, 02:56 AM

Two points:
1.BP doesn't detonate.
2.Ammonium nitrate (even sensitized with FO) won't detonate from just a primer, you'd need a real blasting cap (AP/SA/HMTD/MF/LA/whatever) supported by a strong booster
(I think APAN or ANNM are best suited for you).
Gerbil January 16th, 2007, 06:46 AM

I'm going to be nice, and say NO!
Do some research.
*edit* Just to clarify, you'll decapitate yourself before you get anywhere near detonating AN.
Ekilo January 16th, 2007, 12:29 PM

No. BP does not have the "speed" you are looking for. There may be a way to do it with BP but I don't have the knowledge. Try searching the forums for homemade blasting
caps.
controlledexplosion January 18th, 2007, 07:08 PM

Try using ANFO with the addition of finely ground graphite, this stabilizes the compound and due to carbons reactivity often increases speed of ignition.

Not enough to be set off with BP. Trust me.
Sausagemit January 19th, 2007, 01:00 AM

While were on the subject, does anybody know if AN mixed with pyro AL (search tannerite on RogueSci for reference) shot by a high powered rifle is enough to detonate ANFO
with a ANNM booster?
Because I'm not really into the whole making a blasting cap idea.
Grapes Of Wraith January 19th, 2007, 01:43 AM

I think that it would be feasible, but Wait.... if you have access to a high powered rifle why not just make a "ghetto" blasting cap from one of the bullets?
DMSOnMyVeins January 19th, 2007, 04:03 AM

Is this a newb question and answer topic?
nbk2000 January 19th, 2007, 06:58 AM

Well, the question is in the WC, so it's permitted, though we always encourage n00b's to Use The Fuckin' Search Engine (UTFSE) before posting. :)
Lada March 21st, 2007, 04:24 AM

I think that it would be feasible, but Wait.... if you have access to a high powered rifle why not just make a "ghetto" blasting cap from one of the bullets?
I too have access to rifle ammo. Sorry if this is a noob question, but what exactly is a "ghetto" cap? First post btw.
NUKE(slo) March 24th, 2007, 06:38 AM

My friend detonated PETN with BP blasting cap (sometimes work sometimes don't) but it's much more reliable to use some real initiating stuff.
tomu March 24th, 2007, 07:33 AM

My friend detonated PETN with BP blasting cap (sometimes work sometimes don't) ...
PETN is pretty sensitive stuff especially if it's powdered and at low density (not pressed) and not phlegmatized with oil or wax.
If he is really clever he puts some powdered PETN into the BP charge of his cracker cap. Which will give his "blasting cap" the whoomph he needs for good results.
Rbick March 25th, 2007, 01:29 AM

A ghetto cap is one made from the expended cartridge of the rifle. You just fill and press it with a primary like lead azide or AP, stick a fuse in it and crimp it. It'll throw out
killer shrapnel though, so be careful :eek:
But I think the highest VoD you'll get with BP is like 400 m/sec confined, which won't even come close to detonating ANFO, even if it is activated and sensitized with AL powder
or MnO2.
The idea with the ANNM booster and the high powdered rifle would probably work, you just have to hit the cap, which would probably be small. A rifle round striking an AP cap
would definatley set it off. Sounds fun, 'cause you'll know if you hit your target for sure :)
LibertyOrDeath March 26th, 2007, 09:47 AM

I've searched on the topic of using a steel pipe bomb containing a low explosive like BP for use as a detonator for ANFO, and people seem to agree that it won't work. I hope
this doesn't sound k3wlish, but I find that a bit surprising, even though I don't doubt the experiences of others. The Unabomber made crude pipe bombs using mere match
heads as a filler, and those were powerful enough to kill and maim people. (Granted that shrapnel rather than pure explosive overpressure was probably the reason for this.)
Of course I can see BP or smokeless powder lacking effectiveness when confined in a weak container. It simply deflagrates or, at most, makes a little "pop" as the confinement
ruptures. But I used to make simple pipe bombs as a kid using nothing more than Bullseye pistol powder as a filler and a simple Visco-type fuse ignitor. They were capable of
cutting through a stop sign post. I did, however, optimize those crude devices through some experimentation:
-- Bullseye pistol powder was used, as pistol powder has a higher burn rate than rifle powder.
-- The pipe was always steel with two screw-on endcaps. It had a relatively high ratio of cross-sectional area to length (e.g., 3" wide by 5" long) in order to get higher rate of
burning through the pipe length. The goal was to get as much powder to burn as possible before the pipe ruptured. Long, skinny pipes often failed to explode with much force.
-- The fuse would go into a hole drilled in the center of one end cap, then around the side of some cotton wadding that had been packed between the powder and the endcap.
That was to help prevent gas leakage through the fuse hole after the fuse had burned into the pipe. (This step seemed to make quite a difference. When simple match heads
were used as the pipe filler on occasion, the wadding often made the difference between the thing exploding or just fizzling.)
So anyway, if I hadn't heard otherwise from people here, I would have fully expected a fairly large "Bullseye" pipe bomb made in the above way to be enough to detonate
ANFO.
Thanks for tolerating this stroll down memory lane... :o
tomu March 26th, 2007, 11:32 AM

@LibertyorDeath:
If you would have used a blasting cap instead of a visco fuse the Bullseye Powder would have most likely detonated (shockwave) and not just deflagrated (overpressure).
Then such a device could be used as a booster charge for ANFO.
LibertyOrDeath March 26th, 2007, 12:02 PM

Tomu: Yup, no doubt that using a blasting cap in conjuction with a low explosive filler in a pipe bomb greatly increases the velocity of the explosion. The blasting cap goes off,
igniting all the low explosive nearly simultaneously, so the pressure spike inside the pipe is a lot higher and sharper. I think I remember reading exact figures on the explosion
velocity difference somewhere, but I can't recall where. I'll do some searching and post the numbers if I find them.
EDIT: Well, I found the figures, but they were in "Kitchen Improvised Blasting Caps," which for all I know is not a reliable source. Anyway, for whatever it's worth, here's the
quote:
Many people with whom I have conversed, have mentioned pipe bombs that are made by filling a pipe with either black powder or smokeless powder. These pipe bombs are
poor for fragmentation due to the actual deflagration nature of this type ordinance. Deflagration is the simple burning of a propellant or explosive. This will generate pressure
great enough to rupture the container (pipe) and no more. 2" schedule 40 pipe will rupture at approximately 7144 P.S.I. If black powder or smokeless powder is being used,
this is the maximum pressure a pipe bomb would generate. If this same pipe were filled with powdered ammonium nitrate-fuel oil explosive and detonated with a blasting cap
with an approximate pressure of detonation of 600,000 P.S.I. plus. This same set up (cap initiated) with "Bullseye" brand smokeless powder from Hercules Inc. Wilmington
Delaware as a pipe filler with a blasting cap will generate approximately 2,000,000 P.S.I. plus detonation pressure. This amounts to an 8300% and 28000% increase over
deflagration respectively. As these figures prove, true detonation is awesome and an unbelievable increase over simple propellant deflagration explosive fillers.I don't know if
those numbers are accurate. In particular, I tend to question whether the figure of 7144 PSI is high enough, as the pressure needed to make a pipe merely crack and that
needed to make it explode into tiny fragments (which happens even without a blasting cap) are certainly not the same. If the burn rate is high enough without a cap, it's
conceivable that the pressure inside the pipe could overshoot 7144 PSI considerably prior to the fragmentation of the pipe. But in any case, there's little doubt that a blasting
cap makes a huge difference.
nbk2000 March 26th, 2007, 08:56 PM

Bullseye powder is nitrocellulose blended with nitroglycerin.
If ignited by flame, it'll cause a rupture in a pipe-bomb through overpressure as it'll burn like BP.
If shocked by a detonator, it'll detonate like TNT, and shatter the pipe through shock.
ANFO is rather inert, and so using a fuse-ignited pipe-bomb would be pointless. Only if you used a detonator would it then have enough explosive impulse to shock the ANFO
into detonating.
Cobalt.45 March 29th, 2007, 11:23 PM

Bullseye powder is nitrocellulose blended with nitroglycerin.
If ignited by flame, it'll cause a rupture in a pipe-bomb through overpressure as it'll burn like BP.
If shocked by a detonator, it'll detonate like TNT, and shatter the pipe through shock.Bullseye is said to be 40% nitroglycerin so calculate the quantity needed accordingly.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Unknow n Liquid
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I have an unmarked brow n glass bottle (big) next to two identical, labeld bottles, nitric and hydrochloric acid. I would like to know the contents of the bottle but do not know
the proper tests. I have pH paper and many chemicals. All help welcome.

First off find out as much basic information as you can. colour, pH, density, is it viscous, does it have an odour (be careful), does it fume.
Is it likely to be a mineral acid also i.e. is your lab well organised with incompatible chemicals kept separate.
Find out as much information as you can before you start testing.
Be careful it could be anything.
Links to some tests.

http://ww w.w pbschoolhouse.btinternet.co.uk/page13/ChemicalTests/ChemicalTests.htm

There are many chemical tests, but first I would advise you notice the physical properties of the liquid, i.e. color, viscosity, density etc.
I have a feeling it is sulfuric acid, just because acids are normally stored with acids and Sulfuric is the missing acid of the 3 most common for synthesis.
Find the mystery liquid's density and then look up the specific density of H2SO4 I would imagine that they will be very close. Even if they are not it doesn't mean that it is not
H2SO4, it could just be a lower percentage. If the density is higher than that of H2SO4 it is fairly safe to bet that it is not Sulfuric acid as diluted H2SO4 has a low er density(if
diluted with w ater, the only common diluent for H2SO4).
EDIT: Sorry my post w as semi-redundant, Ultma beat me to the punch. I am still sticking to my advice though.

Yeah I was thinking H2SO4 swell
Also are you a university student do you have access to an I.R spectrophotometer.
If you can a boiling point or melting point can help.

Here is a link to a chart for the specific gravity of sulfuric acid.
http://frogfot.com/stuff/h2so4.png
If you go to the previous page, there are other charts for nitric acid, salts, etc.

Thank you for the help so far, you guys, and good guess. The third IS H2SO4, I just ommited it as it is not in an the same glass bottle as the other acids. It is in a plastic
container. I will update with info on viscocity, etc.
I love how everyone on these forums are so helpful. Reputation additions all round.

Viscocity is low, it fumes whiteish and is a clear liquid. pH paper(litmus) in the fumes turned red and dipping in the -acid?- produced darker red that turned white over time,
Indicating from Ultma's generous link that there is chlorine, or chlorine gas... I wonder if it is HCL...

Viscocity is low, it fumes whiteish and is a clear liquid. pH paper(litmus) in the fumes turned red and dipping in the -acid?- produced darker red that turned white over time,
Indicating from Ultma's generous link that there is chlorine, or chlorine gas... I wonder if it is HCL...
As soon as you said fuming I knew it was Fuming HCl it should be around 37% so it should have an approximate density of 1.19 g/mL. It could be more or less but most likley
37% w eigh up a mL.
Edit: Another more fun test w ill be to put a small square of Al foil 1cm2 in a beaker w ith a small amount of acid in a fumehood away from anysource of ignition and watch the
violent reaction that w ill take place if it is indeed HCl
sprocket January 17th, 2007, 03:04 PM

The fastest way to tell the mineral acids apart is probably using your body's own analytical instruments. Based on smell and taste as well as physical appearance any true
chemist could tell you which it is. Obviously you'd dilute the sample before tasting it and don't sw allow. Perhaps it's not such a good idea to taste random things if you have
anything very toxic in your lab...
While acids initially taste sour, they have their more or less unique aftertaste.
Sulfuric acid - doesn't smell much, but has a sweetish aftertaste.
Hydrochloric acid - pungent smell, tastes like puke (and for a good reason)
Nitric acid - also pungent smell, but doesn't quite have the sting of hydrogen chloride. Haven't actually tasted it, but it probably has the 'round' aftertaste typical to the nitrate
ion.
Perchloric acid - Don't know, but I would love to try!
Acetic acid - ick (everyone knows this one)!
If it is indeed an acid (as the litmus test w ould hint at) then hydrochloric acid seems to be the best bet. Try puffing ammonia at it. It could be oleum, but it is a noticably viscous
fluid that usually has a slightly yellowish tone. Maybe tasting it isn't such a bad idea... What's the worst thing that could happen? ;)

OR, I could just play russian roulette with a fully loaded pistol. Seriously though, I will test the tastes, and the aluminium foil, although is the reaction specific to HCL?... and
what IS he reaction? Well I'll just have to try and see. I am considering just good old dipping my finger in. Nah, not really, although nitric acid DOES make your skin
gowonderfully yellow and fall off... Ah the joys of youth...
I don't know if you're a science god or what, Ultma, but you named exactly the concentration of my labled bottle of HCL.
Also, my lab has very toxic ingredients, 98% and 100% nitric and sulfuric acid, Bromine, sodium hydroxide, and a drawer full of chemicals with mostly eroded lables saying
things like:
USE EXTREME CAU...MELY TOXIC...KNOWN CARCINO..
I tentativly peer into the bottle with my full face gas mask on and am dissapointed at the liquid that appears to be w ater. Taking a sip, I realise it to be, fluoroantimonic acid. I
very quickly and painfully die...
- extract from 'Writings of a K3wl'
Regretfully, since the posting of this article, the author of 'Writings of a K3wl has passed away. Let this be a lesson to other K3w ls evryw here; Drink fluoroantimonic acid.

Don t taste them use your brain instead physical examination followed by chemic al tests, you will als o learn more.
Weigh out 1mL.
Also add some weak 0.1N AgN O3 soln to your HCl if a white precipitate forms (AgCl) your in business. It s HCl.

Fine, I will. Even if it means dissolving that pure silver spoon given to me on my first birthday by my godmother, I w ill.
You so clever Ultma, if only my dad were more like you...:rolleyes:
-The silver spoon thing is true, but she's dead now , so won't come round asking to see it... Tee Hee...
sprocket January 18th, 2007, 03:37 AM

While silver chloride itself is highly insoluble that's not the case for the complexes formed in high chloride (or other halides for that matter) concentrations. If you add a small
amount of silver nitrate to conc. hydrochloric acid it might initially precipitate, but only to redissolve as complexes. Explore the equilibrium:
AgCl(s) + (n-1)Cl- <=> AgCln1-n
lg K
Ks1 -6.75
Ks2 -4.75
Ks3 -4.75
Ks4 -4.45
These complexes are quite soluble! Therefore it is very important to do the silver nitrate test correctly. That is, if your sample most likely contains high halide concentrations it
needs to be diluted.
Considering that you do in fact have toxic chemicals in your lab (but I would not count sulfuric/nitric acid as such) it might not be such a good idea to taste random solutions.
Although having unlabeled potentially highly toxic substances in the first place is just as bad an idea.
The fact that it is stored in a plastic bottle is quite interesting. It w ould suggest that it cannot be stored in a glass bottle, which leads us to hydrofluoric acid. This is quite the
beast! Even the most seasoned chemists are reluctant to use it. It is readily absorbed through the skin and causes very nasty and painful burns. Death through systemic
poisoning can occur even if as little as 2% of your body is exposed to it.
It's easy to test if it's indeed hydrofluoric acid though. Just place a drop of it on a piece of glass and see if it etches the glass.

While silver chloride itself is highly insoluble that's not the case for the complexes formed in high chloride (or other halides for that matter) concentrations. If you add a small
amount of silver nitrate to conc. hydrochloric acid it might initially precipitate, but only to redissolve as complexes. Explore the equilibrium:
AgCl(s) + (n-1)Cl- <=> AgCln1-n
lg K
Ks1 -6.75
Ks2 -4.75
Ks3 -4.75
Ks4 -4.45
These complexes are quite soluble! Therefore it is very important to do the silver nitrate test correctly. That is, if your sample most likely contains high halide concentrations it
needs to be diluted.
Considering that you do in fact have toxic chemicals in your lab (but I would not count sulfuric/nitric acid as such) it might not be such a good idea to taste random solutions.
Although having unlabeled potentially highly toxic substances in the first place is just as bad an idea.
The fact that it is stored in a plastic bottle is quite interesting. It w ould suggest that it cannot be stored in a glass bottle, which leads us to hydrofluoric acid. This is quite the
beast! Even the most seasoned chemists are reluctant to use it. It is readily absorbed through the skin and causes very nasty and painful burns. Death through systemic
poisoning can occur even if as little as 2% of your body is exposed to it.
It's easy to test if it's indeed hydrofluoric acid though. Just place a drop of it on a piece of glass and see if it etches the glass.
True about the AgCl test but it will still make a white cloud when added to 37% HCl w hich w ill dissolve quite quickly how ever as you said. but if your not to lazy to dilute it do it
as sprocket said.
Its not in a plastic bottle its in a big brow n glass bottle.
HF goes through your skin and dissolves your bone as well doesnt it? Well at least thats what I w as told once.
I have a very old HF plastic bottle in my lab (tucked away in an expired chemicals cubby) double bagged but it has crystallised on the outside of the bottle in the bag I am too
scared to even touch it. :eek:
FU TI January 18th, 2007, 09:21 AM

HF goes through your s kin and dissolves your bone as well doesn t it? Well at least that s w hat I was told once.
No. IIRC it penetrate skin, cause mussle cramps and unbelievable pain, artery shrinking that can cause gangrenous limb (the one affected), your nails fall out etc. So bone and
teeth problems are least to worry about.
sdjsdj January 18th, 2007, 09:40 AM

Hydroflouric acid is one of the few chemicals I am genuinely afraid of. I wouldn't want to work with it without full protective gear, if at all. Sorry to spoil your fun, but - if all else
fails - send a small sample to a university, or somewhere else with a mass spectrometer; that should tell you its PRECISE composition within . . . let me see . . . oh, about a
minute.
If they agree to test it.
And you find a way to get it to them w ithout the postal service having several dozen fits.
And you can find a good excuse for having it in your posession.
Good luck with the identification.

Hmm, I could give some to The Technicians... They give you anything, as long as it has a teachers name at the end of the sentance, you w ouldn't believe the stuff I get...
Won't let me go near the radioactive stuff, though.
I don't know if they have a mass spectrometer, and would feel that fuss would probably be created if I had a particulary dangerous chemical. I think I should do the silver
nitrate test... I'm unsure if I should take pictures/video of the entire experiment (making of silver nitrate would be included) and post it on the forums. What do you guys think?
Btw, this would have to be in two weeks time, as I am studying for really important tests.

The Al test is particularly easy to do I recommend it. Although it is not a definitive test, if it fails to react than you know it is not HCl. Remember to do this in very small amounts
wearing appropriate safety wear.
Does HClO4 fume?

The Al test is particularly easy to do I recommend it. Although it is not a definitive test, if it fails to react than you know it is not HCl. Remember to do this in very small amounts
wearing appropriate safety wear.
Does HClO4 fume?
Yes i think it can fume if concentrated enough? it also has a strong odour.
yeah Al + HCl is great fun Al wont react w ith HNO3 or H2SO4
Also have you weighed the liquid w hat is its density?!!!

As I have no indication of concentration I have decided measuring density will probably be misleading. Will be back with the results of the Al test tomorrow (UK time)

As I have no indication of concentration I have decided measuring density will probably be misleading.
You do not understand how concentration of acid are determined from knowledge of their densities then. Several people have posted tables or links to tables showing
concentration of acids vs. their densitites here. SEARCH. I think you'd better leave your new chemistry set alone untill you learn the basics.

measure the density its probly 37% HCl but still it will help
Standardisation of HCl
assuming 37% (12.1M)
weigh out three 24.2-29.04g of di-Sodium Tetraborate add d.H2O warm to dissolve add some 0.1%w /v methyl red in methanol then titrate with acid until endpoint (pink colour)
reaction: B4O(2-)7 + 2H+ + 5H2O --> 4H3BO3
Molarity = ((1000x g tetraborate)/(mL HCl))/190.72

You do not understand how concentration of acid are determined from knowledge of their densities ... I think you'd better leave your new chemistry set alone untill you learn
the basics.
I know how density works, I have just been over the topic in my physics class. But, if I do not know the chemical or the concentration then density would be pretty useless.
I read emotion really badly over the internet, so there are tw o responses to your refrence about my new chemistry set w ith vaccum distiller;
- If you were patronizing - I don't care what you or anyone else grades my ability to be, as I know myself and only tackle w hat I feel I can handle, which includes random
liquids. Don't judge me solely based on one post.
- If you were concerned for my health - I see the point you make. If the density corresponds to 37% HCL, then I may safely assume it is before further experiments. Although
slightly misguided, I realise your intentions were
benign. After confirming what it is, I will follow your advice and find it's concentration by it's density.
When/if you respond I may edit one of the options out to seem less w eird.

Well I tried the Al method - not foil, though, powder, using tiny amounts. After a few seconds, a fizzing could be heard and the fumes increaced greatly. Does this mean it if HCl
for sure? If so, can someone tell me how to close this thread because all it w ill do from then on is use unnecessary bandwith.
Thank you all.

You can't close a thread, only mods can do that, people will eventually lose interest in this thread and let it die.
This does not mean it is HCl for sure but I would bet a good sum of money that it is HCl. Assume it is and check the density of it if it roughly matches 37% HCl then I w ould
consider the case solved. The reason everyone keeps telling you to check the density and compare it to 37% HCl is that fuming HCl in a lab is almost always about 37%. 37%
is standard concentrated HCl.

Did you measure the density, is it similar to 37% HCl.
Chemical tests can be fun how about you do the same HCl test w ith Al in a test tube and do the pop test to see if H2 is evolved
(anyway how did you get your lab tech job grandfathering nah just a joke, but sweet you have a rotavap)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Failure to properly store hazardous substances!
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DMSOnMyVeins January 18th, 2007, 03:31 PM

This news story is about a young chemistry student who improperly stored chems in his refrigerator, and consequently, they exploded knocking a partition into the next door
neighbors apartment.
Bond was set at $1,000,000US.
This person was also arrested in 2002 for possesion of "bomb making chemicals", however, the charges were dropped.
This is an important story for all those experimenters out there. Please be safe.
http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI37533/

Polatnick's arrest affidavit lists all of the chemicals uncovered inside the apartment, some of which include ether, potassium chloride, ethanol and ammonium nitrate.
Maybe he was an alcoholic with high blood pressure:rolleyes:. I strongly doubt it was any of those chemicals that went off(maybe ether but who stores ether in the fridge).
Sometimes I hate the news so much.
I noticed that they called in a "world-renown chemist" to give his expert opinion on what the chemicals could be used to make. Man, they should have called me in I could do it
for half-price:D. I used to be a whiz at interpretating IR and NMR graphs too.
I doubt it would have been AP, as AP is normally fairly safe in solution. I am hazarding a guess that it could have been NG that due to the low temparature of a refrigerator/
freezer formed the highly dangerous "NG Slurpee". That is just my guess based on the vague information from the article, if they flew me in I could give a better guess;) .
Chris The Great January 27th, 2007, 09:10 AM

I'll bet it was the ether in the fridge. The thermometer in a fridge makes sparks you see, and ether is notorious for doing exactly what happened here- exploding any fridge
that it is stored in. It does this at university labs as well though, when somebody doesn't realize that one should never store volatile, flammable materials inside the
refrigerator, so this isn't just limited to the fact that it was at his apartment.
DMSOnMyVeins February 7th, 2007, 07:07 PM

(maybe ether but who stores ether in the fridge) .
I just saw an interview with the suspect on Channel 7 news. It was ether stored in the fridge that caused the explosion.
The bond is set at $1,000,000 and the judge refuses to reduce the bond.
knowledgehungry February 8th, 2007, 12:50 AM

Exactly why no one stores ether in the fridge :D!
Bert February 8th, 2007, 03:40 AM

I well remember my high school chemistry teacher storing the products of our organic chemistry lab when we synthesized diethyl ether, in an old fridge in the back room...
Guess he got lucky on that one.
nbk2000 February 8th, 2007, 03:06 PM

This old fridge, it didn't have the compressor on top, did it?
That'd certainly explain the lack of explosions, since the compressor turning on in modern fridges, with their bottom-mounted compressors, would put an ignition source right
where the ether fumes would be most concentrated.

No, it was more modern but still old in 1977. I've seen the type you're thinking of- I've repaired fridges that have a bimetal temperature sensor that makes a contact for the
starting relay INSIDE the fresh food section of the fridge, up near the top of the compartment. I'd imagine that would be enough of a spark to start an ether/air explosion as
others have stated.
I know of one other person who experienced an ether explosion from turning on a wall mounted light switch in his "lab" area.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Dihydroge n m o n o x i d e s t r i k e s
again
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drunkenpanda January 19th , 2007, 02:16 AM

I saw the craziest thing on the news the other day, and thought that because of all of the dihydrog en m o n o x i d e j o k e s
circu lating around, som e o f y o u m ight get a kick out of this, as grim as it m ay be .
http://cbs13.com /local/local_story_017 0 9 3 9 3 5 . h t m l
Y e s . D i h y d r o g e n m o n oxide has claimed another victim. The verdict: wate r intoxication. I k id you not. Has a n y o n e e l s e h e a r d o f
this?
nbk2000 January 19th , 2007, 08:01 AM

The DJ's all got fired and the family is sueing.
http://www.sacbee.com /101/story/110323.htm l
I noticed all her kids have freaky-huge foreheads! :eek :
QzarBaron January 19th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 4 : 5 2 P M

Yeah water p oisoning is actually really tragic an d i t h a p pens m ore often than m ost people would normally think. I've heard of a
lot of unfortunate events, especially dealing with sports, where p e o p l e h a v e d i e d f r o m ove rhydrating themselves. It seems to
h a v e b e e n a b i g p r o b lem with marathon runners who com pletely threw their electrolytes co mpletly out of ba l a n c e . T h e r e h a v e
been several cases, especially out of the Boston Marath on about this. http://www.thebostonchanne l.com /newscenter5/
1610699/detail.html
drunkenpanda January 19th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 9 : 4 7 P M

In all seriousness, who would of thought that you could die by drinking too m uch water. I find that mildly disturbing.

Y e a t h a t d i h y d r o g e n m onoxide is some nasty shit, I say we ougtha ban it, if etho nol is go o d e n o u g h f o r m e i t s h o u l d b e g o o d
e n o u g h f o r e veryone! :D
cyclosarin January 20th , 2007, 06:21 AM

Anything's to xic in the right dose, apparently water has a LD50 just over 80,000 m g / k g .
aikon January 20th , 2007, 10:10 AM

...I noticed a ll her kids have freaky-hu g e f o r e h e a d s ! : e e k :
You're right! :eek: :D

Maybe they all suffer from hydrocephaly. ;)
IIR C we already have a thread som ewhere about poisoing a victim with water.
c.Tech January 20th , 2 0 0 7 , 1 2 : 2 7 P M

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_m o n o x i d e _ h o a x T h a t s priceless. :D
A n d t o t h i n k t h a t a f e w y e a r s a g o I t h ough s o m ething called dihydrogen m o n o x i d e e x i s t e d , n o w o n d e r I c o u l d n t f i n d t h e

difference between DHMO and water.
I wo uld have discarded the m yth if I didn t f i n d a p r o f e s s i o n a l looking website saying its toxic, dangerous , a n d p r e s e n t a t
m ost high school shootings.
I put hours of research in trying to find what m ade it so toxic com pared to water, little did I know it was water.
festergrump January 20th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 1 : 0 2 P M

I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but when you look at the linguistics of the words it all ma kes perfect sense when you
think about it for a m inute or two, even to someone with absolutely no chem istry background or experience (ie: me).
The prefix "di" or "bi" gives th e m eaning of two. ("tri" = three, ect). "m on" or "m o n o " a s s u m es the m e a n i n g o f a l o n e o r o n e ...
therefore, dihydrogen m onoxide would naturally indicate H2O.
Don't feel ba d, though. My own m other nailed it before I did when I told her the story of the woman in the original post
yesterday in casual conversation. :o
I would have discarded the m yth if I didnt find a professional looking we bsite saying its toxic, dangerous, and present at most
high school shootings.
This is sufficient enough to make a killing (pun not inte nded) off the "chem ical" were it to be sold to k3wls on E-Bay, no? Just
provide the link in the chem ical's description... :D
NBK, you mention the size of the foreheads of the woman's kids... are you im plying they m ight be waterheads? LMAO! Now
that's fucking funny! :)
Chaosmark January 28th , 2007, 12:02 AM

I recall reading that story a week or so a g o . M a d e b o t h m y b r o t h e r a n d I l o o k a t e a c h o t h e r a n d g o , " W hat in the world?!
That's possible?"
Sure enough, Wikipedia agrees with th e story.

http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/W ater_intoxication
tweak February 1st, 2007, 0 8:30 AM

A large num ber of deaths attributed to m dma overdoses, actually result from the victim drinking too m uch water(sorry,
DiHydrogen Monoxide). It's not a very well known fact, but that's because mdm a is an evil psychostimulant that kills teenagers
a n d d e s e r v e s t o b e o s t r a c i z e d . Or so they say! :p
droz February 1st, 2007, 0 3 : 1 2 P M

Sadly enough the city counsel in my to wn, had a "Town Meeting" on Dihydrogen Monoxide, after an email circulated around the
local city governm e n t s o f f i c e s a b o u t t h e d a n g e r s o f D i h y d r o g e n M o n o x i d e .
I really don't know how they found out it was indeed water they were talking about, but I have m y suspicions som e 5th grader
who got out of science class figured it out.
Hirudinea February 1st, 2007, 0 8 : 4 7 P M

O h c o m e o n , t h e f u n n i e s t t h i n g about the Dihydrogen Monxoide hoax is that is shows the ignorance of general public, I will bet
a n y o n e o f y o u i f y o u g e t a c l i p b o a r d , s o m e l i n e d p a p e r and print out a couple dozen leaflets from the DHMO (whatever)
website you could hang out for a couple of hours (assuming you have no life) at any local hippy hangout (try a university :) )
and you will have more signatures than you know what to do with, and if you get phone numbers a n d e - m a ils, well, thats up to
you.
c.Tech February 2nd, 2007, 01:45 AM

and you will have more signatures than you know what to do with
Try sending into parliam ent with enough info on it so they may not do their own research, see what their reply is. If you're
lucky they will sell it to the m edia and you could see a story on it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > User details
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Although I have read and agree with the rules in these forums, the user's details confuse me. It says 'Newbie' under my name, which is probably because I have only been
registered for a month, but what affects the change in title? Can I post questions in places other than the water cooler if I am a newbie, even if I have contributed to the form
in some way?
I'm thinking of a video/picture walkthrough on the synthesis of NG, and troubleshooting, but am sure it has probably been covered already. Should I, as I woldn't like to go
through the whole process, post it up and be banned/flamed... Opinions wanted.

Your title is based on how many posts you have and that is all(unless you are a moderator or NBK gives you the title "banned" or "asshat" or the like which means that you
are no longer with us).
Be careful what you post. Don't ask silly questions outside of the Watercooler, always search before you ask a question or post a new topic. Don't respond to old topics unless
you have something useful to add, not just witty. Look at the date the question was posted(if it was a question) and if it was more than a year ago assume that the person
really doesn't care about the answer at this point, or has found it out themselves. If you truly have some new information to add to the topic, post away, just make sure that is
worth it.
As to the NG find the existing threads on NG read them and make sure what you have will be beneficial if it is post it in the most related NG thread such as Manufacture of NG
as opposed to detonation of NG. There is nothing I hate more than 25 different threads about the same topic that more or less say the same thing. Posting new RELEVANT
information in an old thread is better than posting it in a separate thread IMHO, this makes the forum better organized and assimilation of data easier.

There are plenty of NG synths out there somewhere, but some of them are hard to find. The first one I think of is Brainfever's site, and he does it with H2SO4 and NH4NO3/
Nitric Acid. His site is here:
http://www.geocities.com/brainfevert/home.html?200617
I also have one that I put up awhile ago. See what you think. When I dream about making new explosives, I usually take pictures the 2nd time, and that way, I could put
together tutorial (which I use the next time) and can put some pointers on there for myself and others. Here it is:
http://stupid939.tripod.com/id16.html
And BTW, I pretty much put the site up because its hard to find synths with pictures. :(

Although I have read and agree with the rules in these forums, the user's details confuse me. It says 'Newbie' under my name, which is probably because I have only been
registered for a month, but what affects the change in title? Can I post questions in places other than the water cooler if I am a newbie, even if I have contributed to the form
in some way?
I'm thinking of a video/picture walkthrough on the synthesis of NG, and troubleshooting, but am sure it has probably been covered already. Should I, as I woldn't like to go
through the whole process, post it up and be banned/flamed... Opinions wanted.
Have you done a nitro synth before?! start small have some where safe to work and practice your chemisiry.
How much chemistry experiance have you had!
Start small get a feel for the power your working with,
and please dont blow yourself, your house or somone elses place up.
QzarBaron January 20th, 2007, 02:10 PM

Good site stupid939, I have been having a hard time finding good picture tutorials on making different compounds and I must say you really solved a lot of my problems. I also
really enjoyed the section on chemicals, great collection of ideas there. I would be fantastic if you could finish some of the sections (I'd like to see the thing about blasting
caps).
As for NGfan, I must agree with ultma that you really need to have a solid grasp on chemistry (and it would be a good idea if you are comfortable with performing different
kinds of experiments) before you go into any type of explosive. This might appear to be a little childish at first, but this book helped me understand chemistry and many
reactions and concepts. It is dissapointing to see that books like these can't be found at bookstores or schools these days, It is probably one of the few textbooks that I've
found enjoyable to read.
http://duggmirror.com/general_sciences/Banned_The_Golden_Book_of_Chemistry_Experiments_60 0_book_for_free/

Yes, I aprecciate your concern, but I have already made NG quite a few times. In the process I seem to have also had the weirdest problems too - e.g the whole mix turned
dark yellow, and the addition of water made the mix go green where the two met and produce NO2 gasses, akin to uncontrolled nitration, only proportional to the amount of
water added... So you haven't really answered my question. Do or don't?
stupid939 January 21st, 2007, 04:36 PM

Thanks QzarBaron. I haven't worked on it for awhile, but I have been trying to add some stuff lately. I am working on a homemade hotplate today, and I may do some
blasting caps. I have seen maybe 1 or 2 blasting cap tutorials, but they usually suck. I may do some low-power cap tutorials today or tomorrow, but I need to have some
dreams about making some base explosives for higher power blasting caps. Thanks for the opinion of my site.
As you also said, a good chemistry background is needed too. I took chemistry awhile ago, but forgot everything, so a few months ago, I bought a book called "Beginning
Chemistry". The link you provided is great too, but once you get into explosives more (probably before you do), you will need to purchase/find some organic and inorganic
chemistry books. This is an alternative to taking semester long chemistry courses at the local community college.
NGFan, if your acids are dyed, that color may be carried over to the end product. This has happened to me a few times, but it doesn't affect the performance.
One other big thing. You always ADD THE ACID TO THE WATER. This is the way it has always been, and you can control the heat this way. Add the acid to the water slowly and
monitor the temperature. That may be why you are getting NOx fumes. You should also use distilled water so that you don't have anything contaminating your reaction.
QzarBaron January 21st, 2007, 06:54 PM

Yes, I aprecciate your concern, but I have already made NG quite a few times. In the process I seem to have also had the weirdest problems too - e.g the whole mix turned
dark yellow, and the addition of water made the mix go green where the two met and produce NO2 gasses, akin to uncontrolled nitration, only proportional to the amount of
water added... So you haven't really answered my question. Do or don't?
Yeah I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were asking whether you should post one or not... my brain assumed you meant where can I find a video/tutorial on the making of it. You
could always put up a website like other people have done and then link people to it whenever the question is asked on the forum. Make sure you have your process down
before you do so. Any visual aids and resources are priceless in a hobby as secluded as this.
megalomania January 21st, 2007, 11:21 PM
I think I can best answer your questions out of anyone since Ill be the one with my finger on the trigger so to speak Yes, it is true user titles are based on post count. You
may post in any section you wish as a newbie, just be sure the material you post is relevant to the thread, section, and The Forum. In general the higher your post count the
more latitude you get when asking questions, and the more favorable your responses will be from other members.
Asking stupid questions is a quick way to get yourself banned. Contributing useful unique information is always welcome, and is the best way to get yourself credibility. The
Forum does depend on people providing information after all. Just be sure the information you provide is not ripped from somewhere else and repackaged with your name
instead of the original contributor.
A visual guide on the synthesis of nitroglycerine would be most welcome. A picture is worth a thousand words, and video consists of 24 pictures a second :) Just be sure you
dont include your face or other personally identifying characteristics if you are not properly licensed with a BATF high explosives manufacturer license (if you are a US citizen). I
will assume you are
As an aside, I am in the midst of revamping my website. One new feature I intend to add is a sort of Forum thread directly on the individual synthesis pages for people to
comment on my procedures and add their own variations or alternative methods of synthesis. I also want to add a form where people can submit their own content for
explosives or other chemicals that I do not have listed, and I will include that content on my website. Full credit will be given to the contributing author of course. In this way I
hope to encourage people who may not be up to the task of creating their own website from scratch to utilize the popularity of my name, and the longevity of my website as
the basis for getting their material out. I will be celebrating the 10th anniversary of my website this summer. I officially placed it online July 4, 1997.
I will act as editor in chief to make sure the contributed information is grammatically and technically accurate, as well as to format the writing to fit the websites style. Keep
me in mind when you get your write up done as I will hopefully be flogging this feature heavily to get the word out and scare up contributers.
QzarBaron January 22nd, 2007, 09:38 PM

I will be celebrating the 10th anniversary of my website this summer. I officially placed it online July 4, 1997.
Congrats Mega, I can't stress it enough the importance of the things that you have done. I don't know where any of us would be without you or nbk.
I feel that I was extreamly fortunate to find a source of reliable information among the fog of crap that is found on the internet. Just yesterday I found a website that showed
how to make a zippo with an Acetone Peroxide core... and the guy set it off in his hand.
http://www.textfiles.com/uploads/zippo.txt
I just hope no one is stupid enough to try something like this.

O.K then I will. It may take some time, though, as my exams are upcoming, but I found time yesterday to make some :rolleyes: Hah, I put 4 droplets of it on some tissue
paper and sprinkled some Al. powder. Then, sandwiched said paper between two, 4 Kg steel plates I told my unsuspecting, earmuffed, dad to give it a whack with a hammer.
After gingerly striking it, he was surprised, to say the least, to find that it leapt up to head height (more than 1m up from current position) with a deafening bang. Almost
brained him. I did tell him to stand back. All he could say was "That was so wicked, what was that?" and then go for a lie down.
I have pictures of the finished product, I used a different method and got great yeild, unfortunetly though I didn't catalogue it, so that's a must for next time.
Also, how do I put pics on the page without having a URL, just from my computer?
Megalomania, have you ever considered giving templates out to other administrators, and if they are good, patching them over your web page/s? It would take half the time
than doing it by yourself, and wouldn't be giving them direct access to the site. Just a thought.
It's weird, my water is pH 7, but my NG around 2-3. I have been washing it for ages now.
Btw, all my ingredients are lab-grade and undyed. I still get color varying from clear to yellow, or milky inbetween. It's just that sometimes, say, the whole mix turns dark
yellow, and the addition of it to water turns it green, or blue, or black and lots of NOx gasses produced. Or, the addition of glycerin does not change anything, and nothing is at
the bottom of the water after. Or, when neutralizing the NG, it dissapears into white crystals, that was when my friend added the NaHCO3 by hand... Still, I don't mind, it's not
my acid, and you live and learn. Also, what is the end product of uncontrolled nitration? I mean, if you can salvage something... I heard it was used as rocket fuel.
I would type some more, but the blisters on my fingers say it all. Goodnight...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Essential gear - You don't
leave the house without...?
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View Full Version : Essential gear - You don't leave the house without...?
aikon January 20th, 2007, 10:40 AM

I'm interested what kind of gear the forum members keeping with them all the time?
Here's my little list:
Inova X5 (you never know when the lights go out)

Swiss knife (Hey, it worked for MC Gyver)
Ontario RAT 3 (for delicate jobs)
FOX OC-mace (proven agressor stopper)
Cheap SouthOrd. pick set (I'm getting better with every lock)
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6435/546122le.jpg

Nice set of gear you have got there.
I m no t sure what its like in your cou ntry but in m y country if I got caught with tha t I would be expecting to get my ass pulled
into the cop shop for interrogation.
I v e b e e n m e a n i n g to get a knife for self-defence but without the proper k now-how to use a knife it's more likely to get
turned on me, so I find it safer not to take one.
I take my phone, wallet and keys. It s e nough for me. My neighb ourhood is safe en ough.
Das Rumungskommando January 20th, 2007, 11:39 AM

Among my EDC there is a knife (Benchmade Griptilian), my mobile phone, wallet and keys.
But I wonder what you need that lockpicking set for... ;-)

I used to carry a 6 inch hunting knife, sometimes a homemade billy club(12 inches long Oak with 8 oz of lead in it, stained a
beautiful cherry red :D), now I don't really carry anything except my car keys, wallet and phone, because I am so tough I don't
need to carry anything else ;) (The real reason is that where I live if I am going to need to defend myself my assailant will be
armed with a handgun, and my best bet would be to go along or take their gun not waste my time with a knife). My car keys
do make a perfect fist pack however.
As for pepper spray my thoughts on it are that it takes too long to get out and use for the amount of damage it does. I'm not
going to waste my time trying to fumble for pepper spray so I can try to spray somebody with something that has absolutely
no guarantee of stopping them. I can do more damage quicker with my fists.
aikon January 20th, 2007, 12:11 PM

By now it's not illegal to carry that stuff in my country.
I don't display the items - neither in public nor to my friends, except the swiss knife and the flashlight.
The mace, pickset and the rat-3 (wich is not that big and easily concealed)
are stored away from prying looks.
Defendu January 20th, 2007, 01:57 PM

Weapons I always have on me when I step outside:
CRKT M16-03Z - For reinforced hammerfist strikes, wetwork.
"Combat" boots with composite safety toes - Kicking, stomping, foot protection.
When I go out at night I carry a flashlight and sometimes wear sap gloves.
In reply to c.tech, read Kill or Get Killed(in my uploads folder on the FTP) if you want to learn knifing basics.
What Kill or Get Killed teaches about knife defense summed up in a minute and a half:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3314413849946719103
A street knife attack for comparison:
http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1148816560/Innocent_Kid_Gets_Fatally_Stabbed_Through_the_Hear t
knowledgehungry: Striking with car keys between your knuckles is not a good idea in my opinion. How are you going to react if
you stab so hard that the keys cut into the webbing of your fingers? Why waste time putting the keys between your fingers(or
between your thumb and index finger) when you could simply jab your finger tips into the enemy's eyes as a distraction before
applying something more effective?
For a more effective personal protection plan, I recommend you ask for advice from a "womens' self defense" instructor, and
do the exact opposite.

The car keys I have are the big ones with the hard plastic looks like this http://http://www.motorsadmin.com/images/
car_keys.jpg, I hold it in my fist with the tip protruding slightly from in between my ring and middle fingers. I use it as a fist
pack, not as a stabbing instrument really.
The way it is held makes it very unlikely for the webbing of my fingers to be cut as I am really holding the plastc part not the
key itself, and even if it was to cut my fingers it really wouldn't faze me. When your adrenaline is pumping you don't notice
stuff like that, believe me. I have been in fights and afterwards seen cuts that I have zero clue how they got there, hell I have
been at work and found some pretty bad cuts that I don't know how I got them.
EDIT: As to the time it takes to put it between my knuckles, if I see any potential for trouble i.e. A male over the age of 15 at
night(if there aren't other people about) the keys are already being held in my hand in the manner described. I'm not
paranoid, it just really isn't a lot of work to hold your keys in your hand that way. If I was surprised by someone I would just
use fists, I would not waste my time trying to grab something.
nbk2000 January 20th, 2007, 02:33 PM

A name-brand multitool, a light of some kind (either a surefire or a panther-vision hat), and a lighter (of course! :)).

I've got it pretty tight now.
Ear plugs
Full size SAK/multi-tool
Torch
Lock pick
Money + Keys + other modern essentials
Boots
Vest (after dark mostly)
Gloves
Phone
file January 20th, 2007, 11:17 PM

My list:
A little folding knife
My keys
My picks
No ID
Cash in pocket(never in a wallet, too easy to steal)
A pair of small vicegrips
That's all...
zeocrash January 21st, 2007, 11:21 AM

Things i always have on me when i go outside:
Keys
Phone
Wallet
Bert January 21st, 2007, 06:37 PM

A multi tool, primarily for the cutting tools it carries (knives, saw and files). A flashlight. Something that can make a fire, either
a lighter or large "metal match". Clothing that I would be able to walk home in if a vehicle is incapacitated. (The weather here
kills people). If I thought I needed a specific weapon to leave the house, I would not leave the house.
nbk2000 January 21st, 2007, 08:20 PM

I have to wonder what's up with the carrying of the lockpicks?
Are you guys planning on seizing an opportunity for an impromptu burglary?
I don't know the laws about such things in your states/countries, but here, possession of lockpicks by others than licensed
locksmiths can be considered prima facia intent to commit a felony burglary.
Unless you're intending to do so, why risk it? Very un-RTPB.
I, myself, don't carry ID with me unless I speciifcally intend to buy something requiring it. No sense making it easy for Mr.
Piggy. :p
Oh, and I leave the multi-tool and surefire at home, unless I anticipate needing them, as the pigs love to steal such things
for themselves if they arrest you.
I leave the pre-paid cellphone turned off and at home unless, again, I anticipate a need for it. No need to drag around a
mobile locating beacon.
Regarding cellphones, you guys are using the keyguard function of your phones, correct? Keeps piggies or muggers from
snooping through your phonebook or using your phone to impersonate you. ;)
Gerbil January 21st, 2007, 08:48 PM

nbk, don't you think that you might be just a little bit paranoid? I mean, are the police really going to want to track your every
movement?

you better belive it
even more so if you catch there interest (drug ring,terror suspect)
dont forget they can activate your cellphone and use it as a remote listening device to.:mad:
nbk2000 January 22nd, 2007, 02:42 AM

They may not want to track the every movement of a Gerbil, but they certainly would those of a Natural Born Killer. ;)
ShadowMyGeekSpace January 22nd, 2007, 07:41 AM

you better belive it
even more so if you catch there interest (drug ring,terror suspect)
dont forget they can activate your cellphone and use it as a remote listening device to.:mad:This is not true. Through e911
compliance the phone can be told to not hang up if you call 911 however. I believe you're refering to a post on slashdot awhile
back... the phone was just bugged.
aikon January 22nd, 2007, 12:42 PM

Well, I guess is NBK is right (as always - never question the master :D ) about the carrying of lock picks.
Although it's not illegal in my country I'll leave it at home from now on.
festergrump January 22nd, 2007, 02:40 PM

A while back, while searching the statewide online offender database for a felonious friend of mine who happens to be
presently incarcerated, I noticed several people with the same last name as him in my inqueries. A few of them (all convicted
of felony offenses or they would not presently be in state-run facilities) were charged only with "Burglary Tools" as an offense.
I'm not sure what all exactly would constitute "burglary tools", but one should assume that lock picks are amongst the items
on the top of the list of tools this felony charge encompasses in this part of the US...
---------------------
On original topic, my situation has recently changed, somewhat.
While I really don't need to drive anywhere often anymore and I rarely leave the confines of my own property, when I do
venture abroad there are only two things I am always sure to bring along... my dog and a handgun. Both are intimidating and
will bite when provoked but neither ever ensures safety, thus the doubling up on defensive advantages.
Not driving = no wallet. Not purchasing anything = no money (which is never carried in my wallet, anyway).
One could say we (dog and I) make an intimidating target with so little reward for a what could be a difficult victory... ;)
A knife would be the only thing I can think of that I should add to my short ventures. Just a relatively small, sharp drop-point
or tanto-tip blade with rope cutting serrations the length of the backside would be nice for those 'better to have it and not
need' it situations (LOL... such as to relieve an attacker or enemy combatant of body parts my dog refuses to let go of :D ).
Match January 22nd, 2007, 03:54 PM

Since I visit the gym a lot, I find my self never to be with out my gym bag.
I have it quite full of necessities, all of which are concealed, some of the contents include:
Screw drivers + -
Muliti tool
Needle nose
Locking grip pliars
Electrical tape
duct tape
Wire
latex Gloves
L.E.D flash light (2)

Army issue knife fork and spoon
Pocket knife (with knife fork and spoon)
Spare cell phone and charger
Water bottle
Bowl
hand sanitizer (getting sick sucks)
Tupperware containing my meals for that day
Razor, tweezers, soap, deodorant, cologne, tooth brush, toothpaste, gum ( women are important too :) )
Change of clothes (work out attire)
Small work out journal
Fisher space pen
and right now I have some winter stuff in there;

Gortex gloves
un-issued trigger finger mits with liners ( :D )
Lined toque
This all fits into a rather small gym bag, I bring it in with me when I go somewhere, but I normally just leave it locked in the
car. I had my under-amour bag stolen a couple months ago with over $1000 worth of shit in it, so there is a down side to
accumulating so much in one place.
I keep my I.D cards, debit cards, etc in liners( like those used to protect hockey cards) but not in any wallet, as I believe that
I'd rather loose just one then all.
Since I live out of town, I always have to take my vehicle with me, which I must admit is equipped with quite the pack aswell. I
could live (better then most) out of it.
I'd like to start bringing around some sort of personal protection device, (aside from these lethal fists) and I'd also like to
develop some form of concealment for them on my person.
metallicash January 22nd, 2007, 04:46 PM

you all seem to take alot of "equipment" with you it could be very incriminating. all I take is money (not much), my phone
and if i know someone is after me my folding lock-knife (I call it son) :)
I would only take the lock picks etc if I was upto something.
nbk2000 January 22nd, 2007, 07:17 PM

...
duct tape
Wire
latex Gloves
Seems you forgot to list Ski Mask, Lubricant, and Condoms. :p
And you should know that zip-tie's are the new duct tape. :)
I don't even want to know what you plan on doing with the tupperware and spork set. :eek:
Carrying lockpicks just to be carrying them, is k3wL'ish - or rather, Mall Ninja behaviour.
When carrying cash, you shouldn't carry more than $50. Less is better, actually.
If you carry hundreds of dollars around on you and pigs pull you over, they'll assume (depending on the neighboorhood and
what you look like) that you are either a drug dealer, a robber, or a thief. Especially if they find lockpicks and weapons on you.
:rolleyes:
Plus, if some fuckers do take you down, you don't want to reward them with a grip of cash and a bunch of neat tools, eh?
As for remote turn-on of telephones, that IS possible, if your phone is capable of running programs, such as java or flash. It's
not possible if you have a disposable POS phone (like mine ;)) which doesn't have all the optional bells-and-whistles
computing capability.
ultma January 22nd, 2007, 08:11 PM

This is not true. Through e911 compliance the phone can be told to not hang up if you call 911 however. I believe you're
refering to a post on slashdot awhile back... the phone was just bugged.
I found it at dailytech in december
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5184
not sure if its 100% or a hoax like you said
tiac03 January 23rd, 2007, 12:49 AM

If you are going to keep lock opening tools with you keep them in your car. If you are good enough to use them they are
always nice to keep around incase you or someone you know accidentally locks themselves out. Keeping them in your pocket
is just asking for trouble unless you are a locksmith. Plus if the cops stop you they will take the picks and you will have to go
out and buy somemore. Unless you pick for a hobby or as a job don't carry picks on your person.
(Anyways If you can use picks properly you can improvise picks on the fly, for simple picking.)
As for me, I travel light.
If walking by myself late at night I will carry my trusty K-BAR or my cheaper toy of similar size. (Best to make sure the only
time you take it out is to kill them though, Surprise is your best friend, If they don't expect you to have something to defend
yourself with, you are better off.)
I Also carry 2 bobby pins on different parts of clothing Incase I need to get out of cuffs or jumbo zip-ties (tie-wraps). (Non
police use though, you don't want a cop catching you after you picked your cuffs...) Although I will probably never need to pick
cuffs, for their weight I'll still carry them.
Apart from that, I carry my wallet and Phone. (I'm not as "Dangerous/scary" to the Gov't as NBK so I'm not worried about
being harrassed by the law too much.)
Gave my Gf a Kubotan I made, for when she is walking alone. (Simple directions I gave her: "Hit them hard with it somewhere
on their face neck or head (Good for cracking skulls), and run away")
I find the more stuff you carry the less likely you are of managing to use any of it.
Use the Macgyver approach, Pack light and pick up things along the way.
DMSOnMyVeins January 23rd, 2007, 01:30 AM

I never go anywhere without my Springfield Armory 1911A1 TRP. She's my pride and joy :)
Bert January 23rd, 2007, 01:48 AM

Since I visit the gym a lot, I find my self never to be with out my gym bag.
In my old neighborhood, if you didn't fit the demographic and were carrying a gym bag, the cops asumed you were out to
burglarize. Plenty of people got to have their sneakers (or whatever) inspected by the local police for the crime of being scruffy
or black and possessing a gym bag.
Match January 23rd, 2007, 08:16 AM

In my old neighborhood, if you didn't fit the demographic and were carrying a gym bag, the cops asumed you were out to
burglarize. Plenty of people got to have their sneakers (or whatever) inspected by the local police for the crime of being scruffy
or black and possessing a gym bag.
Good, Thats expected, what kind of scruffy nig-nog is going to be able to afford a gym membership anyway? :o
festergrump January 23rd, 2007, 09:03 AM

The kind of nig-nogs police forces nowdays regularly attempt to train to hold a pistol upright long enough to hand them a
badge and send them out into the world to "bust a cap" in some crime (read: adjust things in the neighborhood, and that's
only if they don't make them mayor, governor, or congressman, instead :eek: ).
Now when you are on your way to the gym in your polo shirt and Dickies while carrying your duffle bag full of goodies you'll be
even more suspect than a couple of knuckle-dragging 14 year old niglets sprinting down the street throwing signs, sporting
'bling' out their grills, with even a smoking Glock in each hand... spilling diamonds out their pants like Antwerp just blew up in
their pockets!
Honestly, though, Match. Lose the duffle bag. (and the serial rape kit inside it ;) ).
Match January 23rd, 2007, 04:45 PM

Now when you are on your way to the gym in your polo shirt and Dickies while carrying your duffle bag full of goodies
Honestly, though, Match. Lose the duffle bag. (and the serial rape kit inside it ;) ).
Come on now, a rape kit :confused:

It's a small gym bag (not a duffel bag) and my goodies take up little space and their weight is not an issue. It's perfect for
going from
Home->truck-> work(gym)-> truck->buddies house-> truck-> home.
The effects I have in it are mostly things that I found my self needing, so thats why they are there. I don't carry it around with
me when I got shopping or take the dog for walks....:rolleyes:
Latex gloves are a life saver when you have to do anything with oil/paint/silicone and you'd rather not get your hands dirty,
not to mention great for treating wounds, or picking up after your dog.
Not everything is about delinquency,
nbk2000 January 23rd, 2007, 09:16 PM

Being a cop isn't about arresting the guilty, it's about filling quotas and making 'good' busts that get you promoted.
Say you're walking down the street with your gym bag, and piggy pulls you over, tosses your bag, takes your name, and lets
you go on down the road.
A week later, SWAT is kicking down your door because a rapie took place in your area, and the piggy remembers stopping a
guy carrying a gym bag with duct-tape, wire, and latex gloves.
The DA will add the ski mask and condoms for the jury, since you're obviously a dangerous predator who knows to get rid of
such incriminating evidence but, thanks to vigilant Officer Pork-o, your days of crime are over and you're One-Strike'd into a
life sentence as a sexual predator.
Didn't do it? Who cares? The DA doesn't, because he's got another conviction to parade during re-election campaigns. The cop
doesn't because he got a promotion. The jury doesn't because they're stupid sheeple who feel saaaaaaaafer
Nobody cares except your lawyer, and only as long as the money lasts, so you're fucked because you didn't have the good
sense to keep from setting yourself up for a fall.
Charon January 24th, 2007, 12:45 AM

gerber multi tool,
cold steel el hombre,
wallet, keys
cell phone
pad of paper and a pen
magnum steel toe tac boots

While carrying lock picks on your person is asking to get busted (in Aus anyway), I must confess that I have found quite a few
times in the past that I needed to pick a lock and didn't have a) the skills or b) the tools to do so.
Situations from loosing the key for your room to needed to break into your own locker at school has popped up a few times. If
the locks you use are just normal padlocks, carry a chainsaw file with you. They aren't very big, double as an effective weapon
and will cut through most padlocks given enough time.
SpookyKid January 24th, 2007, 11:19 PM

I bring
small flash light
A lighter & Smoke's
My knife
augoldminer January 25th, 2007, 05:08 AM

A hook pick and a tension tool can be made that will fit in a pen or a flashlite and the cops will not find them. also a small
shim to open cuffs can be put in a pocket cut in the inside of your belt. cut a small slot in the belt and push a sharp blade in
to form a pocket.
I always keep a slimjim hidden on the outside of my car for lockouts.
One thing I carry is a home made metal scribe that when you flip your wrist becomes a tool that looks like a long ice pick.
good for sticking "things".
I keep the inside spike coated with pepper spray for instant pain.
Closed up, If the cops find it I tell them it is a work tool. I am a home machinist.
A big cop type maglite makes a good weapon and the cops can not prove anything. It is even better if you replace one of the
batteries with a lead weight and use the bulb for the next shorter maglite.
oxbeast January 25th, 2007, 07:24 AM

Spyderco folder
Leatherman tool
Stainless steel pen
Mini-flashlight
Lighter
Pre-paid phone
Wallet with residence card. Unfortunately I have to carry that, since I am not a citizen here. Never been stopped though, since
I'm white and can speak the local code as well as English.

Thanks you your mention of the book Defendu, I had already had it in my collection of files having a quick flick through it
looks quite good.
While carrying lock picks on your person is asking to get busted (in Aus anyway), I must confess that I have found quite a few
times in the past that I needed to pick a lock and didn't have a) the skills or b) the tools to do so.
From what Ive seen a bump key is both easy to make and use. It should work for your lock well enough when you get into
those 'locked out' situations, I like many others just have a spare key hidden outside.
Talking about spare keys, I would like to mention a funny situation with a friends sister. To let her mum know where the front
key was she left a note on the front door saying the key was under the mat. :p
nbk2000 January 26th, 2007, 05:18 AM

I'm assuming most people here don't leave the house without their shoes on their feet, so locking yourself out of the house
or car is impossible if you follow this simple idea I've used for years - putting a spare key for your house and car under the
soles of every pair of shoes you have.
:)
1 key in each shoe, of course.
This way, anytime you have your shoes on, you always have a way into your house and car.
This assumes that you don't have some weird key that can't fit in your shoe.
Another thing to do is buy a pre-paid calling card and copy down the numbers in permanent marker on the underside of the
insoles.
This way you can always make a call, and no money required. $20 isn't a lot to have tied up in the assurance of always being
able to call friends for help.
Cash is always helpful, so sewing a $20 (or more) into every pair of pants you have is another way of ensuring that you CYA.
Now, anytime you leave the house, you've got spare keys, cash, and a way of calling someone with no need for change.
tiac03 January 27th, 2007, 01:23 AM
also a small shim to open cuffs can be put in a pocket cut in the inside of your belt. cut a small slot in the belt and push a
sharp blade in to form a pocket.
What if they double lock your cuffs.... Which everyone trained to use cuffs will do.
Fro m what I ve seen a bump key is both easy to make and u se. It should work for your lock well enough when you get into
those 'locked out' situations, I like many others just have a spare key hidden outside
Why make a bump key for your own house, Mightest well just carry a regular key with you that doesn't require extra work, And
you still need to gain some practice using bump keys, not to mention different lock profiles require different keys... This
means you will need a different bump key for each keyway.
Situations from loosing the key for your room to needed to break into your own locker at school has popped up a few times. If
the locks you use are just normal padlocks, carry a chainsaw file with you. They aren't very big, double as an effective weapon
and will cut through most padlocks given enough time.
Most of the cheap padlocks/ combo locks out there can be opened with shims (Not dudleys). It takes me less time to use one
of those than it does to put the combo into my Master lock combo lock. (Not to mention it would take you less time to open
than with a file ... and is easier to carry with you since it is much smaller. I keep a heavy duty one with me in my wallet just
incase I need to open one, and disposable ones can easily be made with a pair of scissors and a softdrink/beer can.
ONLY January 27th, 2007, 01:48 AM

When Im in my car
Glock 27
knife
Lighter
Handcuff shim
Pen
Assorted tools
Wallet
On foot
Pen
Knife

When I go out for 3 am bike rides I never have my wallet or my phone on me because I may be up to some wrongdooing
depending on my mood. What I do have on me is...
-my keys
-a set of needle nose vice grips
-a set of metric allen wrenches
-a 15 mm end wrench
-two 12" cresent wrenches
-a flashlight
-a pair of leather full handed non ventalated riding gloves
-a small folding knife
-a pencil and paper
-my mp3 player & headphones
It just so happens that the bolts for most gates happen to be 15 mm and so do the wheel nuts on my bike. The two cressent
wrenches can be used to break almost any padlock and also to remove the crank bearings in my bike. Pretty much all the
other stuff is self explanatory.
I have been stopped by the pigs before for lookin just plain suspicious riding a bike around at 3-5 am. I have let one of them
search my bag but I didn't even give him my name, bassicly just to test the guy. He spent most of the time eyeballing the
small folding knife and the flashlight and didn't even glance twice at the tools, which is exactly what I would want. And I sent
him away laughing which is allways a good thing.

Bare minimum? Wallet on a keychain, including:
Swiss Army Knife

LED flashlight
Monthly MTA bus pass
Two open-ended bus tickets (Chinatown bus and Greyhound)
However, day-to-day, I carry a portable travel kit in the bottom of my briefcase, which includes the following:
Travel-sized listerine, tooth floss, mini-toothpaste and tooth brush.

Kleenex, wet wipes, hand sanitizer, latex gloves.
Mirror, tweezers, deodorant, shampoo, chapstick, gum, mirror.
First aid kit, mini multi-tool, wire ring saw, matches, space blanket.
Spoon, nalgene bottle, padlock.
Insignia player, USB drive, camera, phone (battery out).
Pen, notebook, 39 cent stamps.
Since I work out a lot, most days I carry protein bars, gym shoes and a change of clothes. It's a great feeling to know I could
jump on a bus and travel absolutely anywhere, any time I feel like it, and live completely out of my briefcase.
tiac: "I find the more stuff you carry the less likely you are of managing to use any of it."
I agree up to a point, but find that I use quite a bit of the hygiene stuff in my travel kit every single day. Since I always go for
the smallest size possible, it's a lot more compact than it sounds--and in a neatly-zipped black pouch in the bottom of a
briefcase, who's going to notice? Wet wipes are a godsend. I could certainly do without them, but it's a good civilizing
influence. ;)
NBK: "When carrying cash, you shouldn't carry more than $50. Less is better, actually."
I have mixed feelings about this one. Depending on how much you can afford to lose, I'd say up to $100 is fine. $200, if you
think you might need to travel.

$50 might be a little low, that's about 25-35. That would be little enough for a good meal at a resturant, and in a big city it
would likely cover the entrance to a bar for two, and perhaps a drink or two.
I'd say it depends where you are, and whether you can justify the amount. Anything above 250 would be suss around here,
unless you can come out with something great, rather than just plausible.
I used to carry a lighter rigged for a huge flame. Just because people say "You got a light?" then try to mug you. A foot long
flame hitting their baseball caps changes their minds fast!
I don't think much of the bag carrying idea, personally. Far to easy to leave behind, and not fast enough to be useful in 0
seconds if something did happen.
Anyone who thinks they can hide anything well enough to avoid the police should they be picked up and taken to the station is
dreaming, imo. They pull everything apart, even pens, because they know full well that a tab of acid is a tiny dot of blotting
paper in size, and if they can get you for drugs, they don't need to worry about making anything up. Hiding a lockpick would
be near impossible. I might stop carrying mine, or I might start carrying a few small locks with me - for when I am bored.
nbk2000 January 28th, 2007, 10:42 AM

I base what I carry on the premise of being stopped by the pigs and taken in for questioning to the station.
Hence:
No weapons
I am the weapon. :)
Minimal cash
Just enough to pay for gas or bus fare and a little food. Not enough to be a drug user, let alone a dealer.
No ID
I am not a number, I am a Free Man! (What brit TV show is that from? ;))
No Cellphone
I don't carry cattle tags for tracking, nor beholden to anyones beck-and-call.
No 'Job' Related Tools Off-The-Job

Lockpicks, weapons, body-armour, etc. Just an RTPB violation in waiting. Why carry shit around that's going to get you in
trouble for no profit? :confused:
If you have to have a pouch/purse/bag/tote/etc. to carry the shit, you're carrying too much and probably won't have it with you
when you need it.
And if you feel the need to hide it, it's because you know you shouldn't be carrying it in the first place, so why are you?
No Snivel Gear
A lot of what I'm seeing listed is what's known as 'Snivel Gear'.
It's not actually important to the mission, just to pampering the users sensitive sensibilities. Don't be afraid of being cold,
dirty, sore, or bleeding. Believe it or not, you'll live to see another day if you don't have your nappy wipes and Hello Kitty!
Band-Aids. ;)
Chaosmark January 28th, 2007, 02:02 PM

Perhaps the snivel gear is just pampering (heck, no maybe about it). However, during common interactions with people, they
tend to have certain expectations as to what a 'normal' person will look like. If we don't keep ourselves at least partially clean,
we stand out that much more from the crowd, and won't be able to do interactions in the same way that we might need to
(though that arguement is probably better for including snivel gear in a survival pack, not a day-to-day to and from work
case).
Hygine <i>is</i> at least partially important, if nothing more than preventing yourself from getting sick from eating with
infected hands. If its available, we might as well avoid Africa's hygine habits.

Infected hands? You severely underestimate your immune system. That's not even an issue unless you're in a third world
nation, and even then people get along just fine(just don't drink the water unless you boil it, this gos for mexico too).

People's immune systems have been severely weakened because of over-cleaning. In terms of the immune system, what
does not kill it makes it stronger.
There is also a growing number of scientists who believe that the incredible rise in allergies is due to a lack of natural
exposure to germs and allergens.
A certain level of cleanliness is expected of someone, but this consists of taking a shower daily or semi-daily, not having germ
free hands(unless you are a surgeon).
I would rather get sick now when I am young and strong and develop antibodies for when I am older, then leave in a sterile
enviroment, and die at the age of 40 because my immune system is so weak, and my body is not strong enough to defend
agaisnt a relatively benign infection.
anonymous411 January 28th, 2007, 10:19 PM

"Snivel gear"? SNIVEL GEAR?!? Heh, okay, good one. I'll remember that one whether I want to or not! LOL
Seriously, SG can also be classed as a subset of "perception management tools". I know for a fact that if you guys used a
little MORE SG, you wouldn't have to be so concerned with getting stopped and searched by random pork. I never have trouble
with the cops--ever--because I make it a point to never "fit the profile". Most cops are creatures of habit: If you look like shit,
you get treated like shit. Look every inch the "fine upstanding citizen", and ninety-nine out of a hundred will smile and wave
you right on through.
Any intelligence professional will tell you it's infinitely easier to bullshit your way into places you don't belong if you look like
you "fit the part." My daily domain happens to be that of the Manhattan upper-middle class yuppie, so wearing sweats and
sneakers just isn't an option. Good grooming may indeed be an artificial, oppressive, socially-constructed crock of shit, I won't
deny it. But you have to admit, in the right hands, it's a very useful crock of shit. Frankly, I'm sick to death of getting lectured
about using your appearance to express your "authentic self". FUCK authenticity. I know exactly who and what I am, and I
don't need to fit anyone's preconceptions to do so. Conformity (of ALL kinds) is for suckers.
Like you, NBK, I loathe the system don't believe in nine-to-five work either. I'm probably the only other person here who spent
this spring and summer rent-free by choice, establishing four different squats and "safe rooms" (and numerous caches) in the
heart of Washington DC. The one difference is I did it while dressing professionally and wearing Gucci loafers. If I didn't have
such an elaborate SG kit in my briefcase, it would have been a hell of a lot harder to do.
How many of you could pull off walking right through the front entrance of a private country club--and spend all day chilling out
like you own the fucking place? Without the staff so much as asking a single question? LOL In this sorry excuse of a society, if
you're intelligent, well-dressed, confident, and can pleasantly smile as you look people in the eye--you can get away with
damn near anything. SG is just another means to an end.
Anyway, to each his own. Just for an experiment, you might want to try dressing like an upper middle class sheeple-- and
observe the enormous difference in the way cops (and other sheeple) treat you. I guarantee you're in for a real shock.
nbk2000 January 28th, 2007, 10:52 PM

Here's a list from http://bouhammer.com/nucleus/AfghanBlog.php?itemid=335
'Snivel Gear' is a term used in the service, since the user of snivel gear would snivel if they didn't have it.
+++++++++++++
List of gear for A-stan

There are many people reading this blog that are getting ready to come over here in the near-future or have loved ones over
here. I have put together a list of good to have equipment.
The following list is from my experiences and from friends in Iraq that pertained to here also. Some of these wont be needed
until you get in country, so you may want to set them off to side for mama to pack up for you and send to you once you get
settled.
1. Any extra Class VIII you can bring from HS is good to have.
2. Wolfhook single point slings
3. Desert Tan Spray paint
4. Space blanket(s)
5. 100 mph tape, 550 cord, TP, other expendables you think would come in handy
6. Drop Leg Holster (blackhawk or SERPA) and Uncle Mikes Holster for wearing around every day (drop leg will wear a hole in
ACUs over time). I also have one for my IBA so I can have my 9mm handy when in the gun hatch going through towns.
7. Weapons lube that DOESN'T ATTRACT SAND. (MILTECH or Remington Dry Lube)
8. Two copies of addresses, phone numbers, account numbers, etc.
9. 2 pairs of GOOD boot insoles
10. A Good Tactical Flashlight (SureFire, even though you will get issued one with M4)
11. Red/White light headlamp
12. Spare pair of running shoes
13. MP3 PLAYER W/ x-tra pair of spare headphones
14. Enough batteries to last you 30 days
15. Chapstick
16. Lotion
17. 30 SPF or higher Sunblock
18. Bar soap- for some reason its in short supply....almost always
19. Small compact rolls of TP. A lot of places make travel size, half the time you get to a port-a-potty the jackA$s before you
ganked the TP
20. Baby wipes- 30 days worth. Expect that the power and water will either go out, or the water will be contaminated at least
once a month.
21. Gold Bond Foot and Body Powder
22. Small clip on LED light-clip it to your IBA....it will come in handy....quite often.
23. Drink mix for 16/20 oz bottles of water
24. Weightlifting supplies
25. Small photo album with pics from home.
26. Hand sanitizer (small bottles to put in ankle pockets)
27. More books/magazines than you think you will need.
28. DVDs, for you and to loan out for swapping purposes
29. Tactical gloves- military gloves are sort of clumsy ( I love the $9.95 whitewater brand gloves from the clothing sales). Also
standard flight nomex are good.
30. Lens anti fog agent. Shaving cream works in a pinch, but you have to apply it every other day or so.
31. Good pair of shower shoes/sandals. I recommend the black adidas....lasted me all year.
32. Small pillow (air inflatable)
33. Cheap digital camera (at least 2.1 mp)
34. Boot knife
35. Gerber multi tool
36. Fabreeze-sometimes the laundry is few and far between.
37. Armor Fresh
38. Extra boot laces
39. Stainless steel coffee cup with screw on lid.
40. Soccer shorts/normal t shirt to sleep in, hang out in your room in
41. Sweatshirts for winter times hanging around
42. A couple of poncho liners for privacy, nasty mattress cover, etc.
43. A set of twin sheets with pillow case
44. Good regular-size pillow
45. One or two good civilian bath towels
46. Buy a good set (>$200) of winter desert boots. All they will give you is a regular summer set and a set of goretex lined for
waterproof needs. Desert is a cold place at these altitudes in the winter time.
47. Bring a laptop. Also may want a PSP or some other handheld gaming device.
48. Get an external USB hard-drive (>60gb). You will need this to back up data to, and to store movies and MP3s that you will
fall in on from previous teams.
49. Get a Skype account and download the software from skype.com. This is how I talk to home 95% of the time. If you call
computer to computer it is totally free. You can also skype out from your computer to a regular phone for $0.021 a minute.
There is nothing cheaper than that.
50. Decent headset with mic for computer (skype).
51. Webcam for video calls back home.
52. Bring a min. of 18ea. M4 mags per person. 9 that are loaded and 9 that rest. Plan to do M4 mag changeover once per
month.
53. Bring 8ea 9mm mags, for same reason above. Change these over every two weeks.
54. Order a LULA mag loader/unloader. It will be the best $14 piece of plastic you every bought. I have 12 mags loaded at all
times and when I do change over it will do it in a fraction of the time and save your hands, and save the ammo.
55. Try to get your state or purchase yourself one 12v DC to 110 AC inverter per man for your trucks. There are crucial on
mission to charge personal items, cell phone, ICOMs, and especially ANA radios (they only have re-chargeable batteries).
56. Dump the IBA tac vest you get issued. Get a Tactical Tailor MAV chest rig (does not matter if you get 1 or 2 piece one as
you want to keep the front open for laying in the prone. You dont want mags pushing into your chest making it hard to
breathe) . I wish I would have bought mine at the start. It makes a HUGE difference on the back and shoulders when carrying
a loaded rig.
57. Get comfortable pair of desert boots. I wear only the Converse 8 assault boots (non-zipper ones). Oakley, Bates and
several others are similar in style and comfort.
58. Bring some good snivel gear for the winter time. Extra poly-pro winter hat, gloves, neck gators, etc.
59. Lock de-icer for the winter time
60. Disposable hand and feet warmers
61. Canned-air, lots of it for electronics weapons, etc.
62. Lens wipes for optics
63. Screen wipes for computers
There are probably many other things that could go on this list, but a lot of that is personal preference. The purpose of this
list is to provide some insight into things that could make anyones tour easier.

No ID
"The Prisoner" (from google)

No ID
I allways here it on the Iron Maiden song aptly titled "The Prisoner". ;)
People's immune systems have been severely weakened because of over-cleaning. In terms of the immune system, what
does not kill it makes it stronger.
And also overmedicating too.
My white blood cell count during normal day to day life is around 23 when normal for people around my age is around 13. Who
do I have to thank for this, my mom for not stuffing tons of antibiotics and medicine down my throat when I was younger like
most overmedicated kids of my age. Now when all my friends get sick I usually get a slight cough or runny nose but nothing
no way near as bad as them. I havn't taken one sick day from work or school in the past 5 years.
How many of you could pull off walking right through the front entrance of a private country club--and spend all day chilling out
like you own the fucking place? Without the staff so much as asking a single question? LOL In this sorry excuse of a society, if
you're intelligent, well-dressed, confident, and can pleasantly smile as you look people in the eye--you can get away with
damn near anything. SG is just another means to an end.
I often wear my suit around just to gauge the difference in peoples reactions. Walking around campus, not too many people
care to notice, they probabbly think I have a presentation or something that day. Walking through a grocery store I garner all
sorts of looks from the female persuasion, especially when I'm buying stuff for cooking rather than pre-made stuff (tostinos
pizza's are a staple food of mine as it is with most college students). I've been to a few higher class joints and a couple of
high class car dealerships and they pretty much treated me like a gentleman rather than like human garbage like they do
when I'm in my normal day to day attire. It's funny how much a difference some cloths, a nice watch and some nice shoes can
make.

S: What's really sick about the significance people place on "dressing well" is that if you're persistent and resourceful, you can
do it even when you're broke. Find the right thrift store, and you can score Brooks Brothers sweaters, Ralph Lauren polos, JP
Tod's loafers, Ferragamo wingtips--the whole nine yards--for extremely little money. I seldom shop in real stores anymore.
Why pay $595 for the very same shoes I can get for $30? E-bay is great too, check it out--can you believe the prices on this
stuff?
Here's a whole outfit for you, dirt cheap:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Brooks-Brothers-Navy-Single-Breast-Suit-48-
L_W0QQitemZ270083554771QQihZ017QQcategoryZ3001QQrd Z1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item270083554771
http://cgi.ebay.com/BROOKS-BROTHERS-WHITE-NON-IRON-DRESS-SHIRT-18-36-
37_W0QQitemZ140078093614QQihZ004QQcategoryZ57991QQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140078093614
http://cgi.ebay.com/LOT-OF-7-BROOKS-BROTHERS-SILK-MENS-NECK-
TIES_W0QQitemZ270082396152QQihZ017QQcategoryZ52381 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item270082396152
http://cgi.ebay.com/MEN-BLACK-BROOKS-BROTHERS-OXFORD-DRESS-SHOE-SZ-12D-12-
D_W0QQitemZ180078292028QQihZ008QQcategoryZ63850QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?
hash=item180078 292028

You are shitting me right NBK? While yeah, if you were going to afghanistan for a while, that would certainly help your stay,
that looks like a whole fuck tonne of SG.
Everyone, remember the title of this thread, especially "Wont leave home without".
Anonymous - think back to the last time you saw a bum who didnt interact with you. Can you even remember the last time? or
what he/she looked like? People these days get jaded from seeing it so much that they just don't pay attention anymore. If
you look nice, you have more chance of being noticed than if you look like a filthy street bum *grin*.
Back to the bare basics people. We aren't talking about if you think you might need it, we are talking something you NEVER
leave the house without.
Personally, I must admit that for me its only keys, wallet and phone. *Mutter* stupid phone.
defiant January 29th, 2007, 09:19 AM

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/7892/pictureww6.jpg
Also a carry permit.

I greatly dislike the DA triggers of sigs as well as the controls, but they won't fail you... I also dislike the slide riding high
(increases felt recoil, but I have to admit the p220 series slams back into battery with authority - reducing muzzle flip), but
great choice if you can get past those three issues. As for a permit, I'm pretty sure many of the members here are not
elligible for an FFL licensed weapon(and thus a CCW).
Bert January 29th, 2007, 11:59 AM

I'm pretty sure many of the members here are not elligible for an FFL licensed weapon(and thus a CCW).
Having an FFL has nothing to do with being eligible for a CCW permit in my state- If you meant that a majority of the US
memebers may not be old enough to have either, or to even buy a pack of cigarettes, agreed.
nbk2000 January 29th, 2007, 12:54 PM

You can be too young to buy cigarettes, but old enough to own a firearm in the US, even if someone older has to buy it for
you.
FFL's are for those who deal in firearms as a business. CCW is for private citizens to carry concealed firearms.
Alexeris, that A-stan list was an example of snivel gear. Though, if I was going there, I'd probably want all that shit myself. :)
defiant January 29th, 2007, 12:58 PM

ShadowMyGeekSpace:
You're correct if you mean by "DA Trigger" that Sig's standard trigger is dorky looking (not elegant). Sig's short trigger is more
elegant (pictured below on a 225) but not as comfortable:
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9417/sig225vl2.jpg
The only shortcomings with Sig "controls" is lack of familiarity with them. The Sig has no manual safety, making it less
complicated and quicker to deploy. Its got relatively standard mag and slide releases, and a decocking lever. That's it. The
ultimate in simplicity
With regards to recoil, the gun pictured is not a 220 - its a 226 in 9 mm. The 9mm doesn't produce much recoil, and the
weight of the stainless slide/frame dampens muzzle rise. 3-4" groups firing 16 rounds at 25 meters is fairly easy.
Finally, the FFL license is for manufacturing, importing/exporting and dealers. Carry permits are governed (primarily) by State
law.

Alexires: excellent point, but it all depends on what you're doing and where you need to be "invisible". For instance, looking
affluent and wearing a suit in downtown Bed-Stuy would be a really, really dumb idea. But in Georgetown DC, bums get the
cops called on them pretty quick. A UPS delivery drone or a hard-hatted phone company worker? Well, that's another story,
isn't it. ;)
I'm certainly not above being filthy if I needed to, but I suppose it's a matter of personal preference. It's a rich white person's
world-- and I'm sure my not-insignificant degree of narcissism plays into it too.

By DA I mean double action. I'm aware its a 226, which is why I included the word "series".
As for the FFL/CCW issue, what I mean is that if you arent eligible to purcahse a firearm from an FFL licensed dealer, theres
no way you're getting a CCW.
defiant January 29th, 2007, 08:53 PM

The Sigs have a double-action/ single-action trigger. Without the hammer pulled back its a double action with a 12 lb pull.
Once the hammer's back its got a shorter single action 4 lb pull.
There's a lot to like about Sigs, but there are a lot of other good manufactures/models to choose from. I'm not saying the Sig
is the be all and end all - but it is one of those things I don't walk out of the house without.
As for the FFL/CCW issue, what I mean is that if you arent eligible to purcahse a firearm from an FFL licensed dealer, theres
no way you're getting a CCW.
Why's that - the 2nd Amendment prohibits infringement on the right to own and bear arms ... :rolleyes:

That'd be DA/SA. I like having the same break every time - even on the first shot(means having to bring the hammer back
though). They're also produced in double action only (DAO), but the pull is too heavy for my tastes. Like I said, I dislike DA.
As for the whole constitution thing, I'm going to assume you're kidding and not going to make me explain.
defiant January 30th, 2007, 12:10 AM

No need to explain on the 2nd Amendment comment, I was joking (mostly).
No need to explain either why you don't mind pulling the trigger back on a single action but dislike doing so on a Sig - where
doing so would afford you a single action pull. :D

A UPS delivery drone
Be careful some people here might work for UPS :cool:. Although they may not be delivery drivers.

Well, in that case, in my opinion they should definitely hook themselves up with some delivery uniforms, because it's a
fantastic disguise. LOL! No offense intended. :)

Alexeris, that A-stan list was an example of snivel gear. Though, if I was going there, I'd probably want all that shit myself. :)
Nahhh, I fully dig where you are coming from NBK. I would want all that shit as well, to make the time fly. I was just wondering
if it was a list of snivel gear, or if I was going mad and had ideas WAY off the mark.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Qantas bars man wearing 'Bush' T-shirt
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View Full Version : Qantas bars man wearing 'Bush' T-shirt
c.Tech January 22nd, 2007, 03:44 AM

An Australian who lives in Britain has threatened legal action against Qantas for barring him from a Melbourne-to-London flight wearing a T-shirt depicting US President George
W Bush as a terrorist.
Allen Jasson said he was defending freedom of speech through his insistence on wearing the T-shirt.
Mr Jasson, 55, an IT specialist living in London, is staying with his daughter in Melbourne after he was refused entry to the flight to London at Melbourne Airport on Friday.
Airline staff argued the T-shirt, which bears an image of the US president with the slogan 'World's number 1 terrorist', was a security risk or an item likely to upset passengers.
The airline earlier had prevented him from flying to Melbourne for Christmas with relatives on December 2 until he removed the shirt.
Domestic carrier Virgin Blue took the same action when Mr Jasson tried to catch a connecting flight to Adelaide, but on a return flight to Melbourne with Qantas on Friday, he
successfully wore the shirt.
Mr Jasson said he cleared international security checks and arrived at the departure lounge in Melbourne for the flight home when he approached the gate manager,
congratulated him over Qantas allowing him to wear the shirt and demanded an apology for his earlier treatment.
"I concede that I raised the issue, but I wanted primarily to thank Qantas for relenting when (the gate manager) told me: 'I'm surprised you got this far, the staff should have
stopped you'," Mr Jasson said.
Mr Jasson said he risked missing his chance of permanent residency if he spent more than two months out of the UK.
But the Adelaide-born former Melbourne resident said he was seeking legal advice to challenge the airline's policy and recover costs.
"To be fair to Qantas, they have said I can take another flight if I don't wear the t-shirt but I am not prepared to go without the t-shirt," he said.
"I might forfeit the ($2,500) fare but I have made up my mind that I would rather stand up for the principle of free speech."
When asked whether the stand was worthwhile, Mr Jasson said: "In Australia today it is very sad that that question has to be asked.
"It's very sad that I find that question has to be asked in Australia. It's a very unhealthy situation and it makes me feel very sad.
"It's one of the reasons that I now live in the UK."
Reading from a prepared statement, a Qantas spokesman said: "Whether made verbally or on a t-shirt, comments with the potential to offend other customers or threaten the
security of a Qantas group aircraft will not be tolerated".
God bless this man, standing up for his rights and freedom of speech which we know in the western world is slowly being torn from our grasp.
Now according to Qantas if you wear an anti-Bush shirt you're a terrorist threat.
Source: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=178766

What a joke..
You'd be more likely to stir up real tensions with real consequences if you wore a t-shirt proclaiming Osama as the world's #1 terrorist. Are we really so precious about the little
man that one can't wear a t-shirt that says what one thinks about him??
"comments with the potential to offend other customers..... will not be tolerated"
So does that mean that you can't claim that airline food tastes like shit, on the off-chance that somebody within earshot may actually enjoy it, as unlikely as that may be.
Well, look at the turkeys in Sydney. No Australian flags at the big-day-out!! Are they fucking serious?? It would be one thing to say no flags of any kind, but to single out one in
particular, the national one no less, is beyond a disgrace. If someone gets drunk and disorderly, you kick em out - you don't ban alcohol. Similarly if someone makes a cunt of
themselves with the flag, show them the door. Simple as that.
Mind you, the problem stems from people being bashed last year for refusing to swear allegiance to the flag of the country. That shouldn't have happened, but what the fuck
were the idiots that got bashed thinking when they refused?? You shouldn't get bashed walking down a dark alley alone at night either, but you're certainly not risking bumping
into the tooth-fairy now, are ya?
The world has gone fucking mad. It's starting to seem like only those prepared to be unreasonable have any chance of getting what they want..
Lemme the fuck outta here..
cyclosarin January 22nd, 2007, 11:07 AM

This reminds me of a case involving a student wearing a similar T shirt and idiots at the school trying to stop him:
http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/youth/11405prs20031001.html
Luckily he pushed his case and won.
fiknet January 22nd, 2007, 06:11 PM

I just saw the Australian breakfast show 'Sunrise' interview the man in question. You could tell from the tone of the dickhead presenters that they were clearly pissed and tried
to have a go at him saying that he was doing on purpose to create a situation and causing fear by reminding people of terrorism. He replied that it was his right to express
himself and express a suppressed view and went into a few details about Iraq and such which then the presenters interrupted by saying oh lets not get into that political spin
side of things ( funny how it's 'political spin' ).
A few people sent in agreeing with the presenters but gladly some other people agreed with the man saying it's his right to express himself and that Qantas were taking it too
far.
Hirudinea January 22nd, 2007, 08:03 PM

What good is fighting for freedom is you have to give up the freedom to be a asshole?
festergrump January 22nd, 2007, 08:59 PM

Years ago, I bought an L7 "Smell the Magic" shirt (band T-shirt) just because it might be deemed offensive by many soccer mommies and "Ned Flanders" types. It depicted a
rather slutty blonde in red latex thrusting a man's face into her crotch by a leather strap or whip around his head and under his ears... I wore that shirt everywhere I thought I
might get a rise out of somebody. (The band was just alright, but the shirt was really pretty funny. I loved it and the reactions it would usually get).
Once I was wearing the shirt at a family resteraunt and on my way to the restroom almost bumped face first into a woman in her early sixties. She took a step back (shocked
from almost a head on collision with me, I REALLY had to go!) then she noticed my shirt. She sized me up head to toe with an evil little grin. It was I who blushed and was
shocked, not her! I felt..............icky....... After that, I never wore the shirt again. :o
My point: You might try to invoke a certain responce out of others by making an effort to offend, but you have to take the good with the bad when doing so.
In my case, the bad was enough for me to cease and desist. If the price of his airline ticket was worth it to him, so be it, but there is a time and a place for tomfoolery, and
when it costs hard earned cash to shock and offend... nope, not me. Airplanes wouldn't be my first choice for making any kind of statement just for shock value.
If my statement is important enough to me I'll do more than wear a shirt. I'll get involved somehow where my presence or money can be better spent...
ShadowMyGeekSpace January 22nd, 2007, 11:14 PM

Funny shirt, http://www.theweathermen.com/acatalog/l7_smell_music.jpg
But yeah, I'd be more angry if this guy gave in.

If you think that freedom rape is discussing you should read what this reporter is saying.
I wont quote the whole think here because the article isnt likely to get removed unlike articles that make the governments movements look bad (and they do delete
them.)
Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4661303/
The Best Ways to Beat Terror
Open societies will have to get used to some invasions of privacy. We need pre-emption but against individuals more than states
*SNIP*
Terrorism today doesn't need government backing because it is fueled by three broad forces: the openness of free societies, the easy access to technologies of violence and a
radical, global ideology of hatred. It can be stopped only by responses at each level.
Western societiesand increasingly others as wellprovide enormous freedoms to people living within them. Terrorists use these freedoms to hide. Now we have to find
them. This means, as Tony Blair said last week, measures such as national identity cards and biometric identification systems. It also means much deeper cooperation between
law-enforcement and intelligence agencies. People with known connections to terrorists should be picked up, at least for detailed questioning, if not detention. We need pre-
emption, but of individuals more than of states.
Terrorists use freedoms? QUICK, we must ban these freedoms.
Prepare for the new western society where war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength.
festergrump January 23rd, 2007, 02:10 AM

Prepare for the new western society where war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength.
"Bother!" said Pooh as he chambered another round... :p (don't ask)
Hirudinea January 23rd, 2007, 08:20 PM

My point: You might try to invoke a certain responce out of others by making an effort to offend, but you have to take the good with the bad when doing so.
In my case, the bad was enough for me to cease and desist. If the price of his airline ticket was worth it to him, so be it, but there is a time and a place for tomfoolery, and
when it costs hard earned cash to shock and offend... nope, not me. Airplanes wouldn't be my first choice for making any kind of statement just for shock value.
I disagree, an airlines job is to provide for the saftey of their coustomers, not edit their clothing, so unless his shirt was made of 100% guncotton and he was sitting in the
smoking section Quantas had no buisness kicking him off the flight.

Hirudinea - I think festergrump was more pointing towards the fact that by wearing a t-shirt like that, you expect responses (normally negative) from people.
While doing that is well and good, doing it in a place where there is a fair chance that you stand to loose ALOT of money is just stupid. While making a point is important, if it
costs you THOUSANDS of dollars to do so and possibly citizenship in a country that you want to move to (fuck knows why) why would you do it?
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Still Quantas is in the wrong and a bunch of ass fuckers.
Look at that, niggers walking around Adelaide drinking bottles of booze and being as loud as fuck and swearing everywhere offend me, but I can't say anything because they
are black and that would be "racist".
Fucking niggers.

Hirudinea - I think festergrump was more pointing towards the fact that by wearing a t-shirt like that, you expect responses (normally negative) from people.
Yes people, people have the right to have feelings and opinions, not corporations, they are supposed to be emotionless autotomtons who just provide their services in
exchange for money without judgement, you know like prostitutes. ;)
While doing that is well and good, doing it in a place where there is a fair chance that you stand to loose ALOT of money is just stupid. While making a point is important, if it
costs you THOUSANDS of dollars to do so and possibly citizenship in a country that you want to move to (fuck knows why) why would you do it?
Which is my point, unless this fellows shirt was a manifest physical danger to the passangers on this flight then Quantis had no right to bounce him, regardless of what it said,
its not their option to decide what a passangers clothing will say, or what it will be, as long as it confroms with the laws of the nation (eg. his dick ain't hanging out), imaging
the outrage if some raghead bitch was told she couldn't wear her ugly sack on the plane, fucking outrage!
Look at that, niggers walking around Adelaide drinking bottles of booze and being as loud as fuck and swearing everywhere offend me, but I can't say anything because they
are black and that would be "racist".
Fucking niggers.
Oh God tell me about, I live in the "Most Multicultural City in the World" (said in a mocking faggy tone), there's not enough ANFO in the world to fix this fucking place!

While I applaud the man for standing up for something, I find his timing to be horrible. The airlines are trying to maintain peace on the plane so no one starts a fight over it on
the flight. Though the shirt is not that likely to arouse controversy, it's still in the airlines best interests to keep potentialy offensive things off of the plane. I doubt the airlines
even like bush, after all, his media scare drove off alot of business.
Besides, Bush isnt a terrorist, he just works for them:D .

Edit: Don't get me wrong here, every inch we give up to the man is an inch we'll have to one day take back by fire. I'm all for free speech, but arguing about it with some
redneck in coach on a plane over the medeteranian isn't going to help anyone. I respect his right to express his opinion, but if you go around wearing a shirt that says "Jesus
was a kike" your probably not going to convert many christians.
nbk2000 January 25th, 2007, 12:35 AM

Oh God tell me about, I live in the "Most Multicultural City in the World" (said in a mocking faggy tone), there's not enough ANFO in the world to fix this fucking place!
You must live in either San Francisco or Antwerp, right? :p
sbovisjb1 January 25th, 2007, 01:20 AM

I personally think It might upset the stupid American tourists. The reason they are stupid is that a lady was on holiday in Tahiti (Or something of the sort) and she met an
American couple. When she told them that she was from Australia, they exclaimed in surprise that she speeks English very well for an inhibitant. >.<
nbk2000 January 25th, 2007, 10:06 PM

I can so totally see that happening. :D

While I applaud the man for standing up for something, I find his timing to be horrible. The airlines are trying to maintain peace on the plane so no one starts a fight over it on
the flight.
Then pray to God they never get a devout muslim man on a flight or they'll have to kick off all women not wearing burkhas.
Though the shirt is not that likely to arouse controversy, it's still in the airlines best interests to keep potentialy offensive things off of the plane.
Its the airlines buisness to carry paying passangers who abide by their rules to their destinations, and since I don't believe Quantas has advertised "We reserve the right to kick
your ass off our planes if we don't like what your T-Shirt says", I believe Quantas has oversteped themselves.
Besides, Bush isnt a terrorist, he just works for them.
And funnier still I'm all for blowin' up sand niggers but I wanna keep my right to wear what I want when doing it. :cool:
Edit: Don't get me wrong here, every inch we give up to the man is an inch we'll have to one day take back by fire. I'm all for free speech, but arguing about it with some
redneck in coach on a plane over the medeteranian isn't going to help anyone. I respect his right to express his opinion, but if you go around wearing a shirt that says "Jesus
was a kike" your probably not going to convert many christians.
Well thats the whole slippery slope argument isn't it, if you say "We need Hate Speech Laws" well even if your speech isn't defined as hate speech to day whose to say it won't
be redefined as hate tommorow? As unpleasent as they may be the irrational ravings of lunitic assholes are in fact the clairon calls of freedom and when they're silenced your
next.
I live in the "Most Multicultural City in the World" (said in a mocking faggy tone),
You must live in either San Francisco or Antwerp, right?
Nah, we don't have the pot or the climate. :mad:
I personally think It might upset the stupid American tourists.
Well to paraphrase Ossama on Americans "Fuck'em"
The reason they are stupid is that a lady was on holiday in Tahiti (Or something of the sort) and she met an American couple. When she told them that she was from Australia,
they exclaimed in surprise that she speeks English very well for an inhibitant. >.<
Don't worry, most Yankees are like that, if its not on within 2 blocks of their house, on Fox news or in USA Today (tabloid newspaper thingy) it might as well be on mars, the
lady should have been happy the Americans didn't pat her on the head and feed her a hand full of raisins. :D

While I agree that freedom of speech is important, practically speaking, this guy is a complete dumbass. He's making it hard on himself for absolutely nothing. Bottom line: will
his actions have the remotest chance of affecting policy? No. There's no sense in being a martyr for a trivial issue. Save your energies (and reputation capital) for problems that
matter.
Furthermore, I believe private businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason whatsoever. If Qantas suddenly decided they wanted to limit their service to
Asian men under 5'3" with a Southern accent who wear bow ties, it would be a-okay with me. In other words, vote with your wallet. Reward businesses who have sensible
policies, and let the others see their profits go to hell.
Nihilist January 28th, 2007, 06:23 AM

While I agree that freedom of speech is important, practically speaking, this guy is a complete dumbass. He's making it hard on himself for absolutely nothing. Bottom line: will
his actions have the remotest chance of affecting policy? No. There's no sense in being a martyr for a trivial issue. Save your energies (and reputation capital) for problems that
matter.
He's standing up for an extremely important principle that he believes him. If that makes him a dumbass, then I can only aspire to be as much of a dumbass as this guy.
Furthermore, I believe private businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason whatsoever. If Qantas suddenly decided they wanted to limit their service to
Asian men under 5'3" with a Southern accent who wear bow ties, it would be a-okay with me. In other words, vote with your wallet. Reward businesses who have sensible
policies, and let the others see their profits go to hell.
It isn't an entirely private business. Airlines are heavily regulated and subsidized by the gov.

It is vitally important, but seeing as how you only get one life, you need to pick your battles. All I'm saying is don't waste yourself on something that's not going to make a
difference. If you're a "direct action protest" kind of guy, then more power to you. I have no problem with that at all...I just hope act in a way that's going to get the most
bang for your buck, so to speak.
Here are a few great quotes from William O. Douglas you might be able to use someday:
As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that
we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
The most important aspect of freedom of speech is freedom to learn. All education is a continuous dialogue - questions and answers that pursue every problem on the horizon.
That is the essence of academic freedom.
"Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us."
The privacy and dignity of our citizens [are] being whittled away by sometimes imperceptible steps. Taken individually, each step may be of little consequence. But when
viewed as a whole, there begins to emerge a society quite unlike any we have seen -- a society in which government may intrude into the secret regions of a [person's] life.
The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedom.
--William Orville Douglas.

Airlines are heavily regulated and subsidized by the gov.
Wrong choice of words. Subsidize means "to furnish with financial aide". If this were the case, Delta would not be in the dire straights they have founds themselves to be in for
so many years. Regulated by the government, yes, extremely... so long as it's to continue to scare the sheeple witless and keep them fearing an attack involving aeroplanes...
(all for the better good of travel regulation. ie: tracking of every individual's movements).
Any privately owned business has the right to do refuse service to anyone they see fit. It is the bad press they will receive for doing so if the actions are deemed politically
incorrect which keeps them from doing so.
It's easily side-stepped by simply calling the individual you are discriminating against a "threat"... which is exactly what this airline is doing.
Since 9-11 this is ever so easy to do.
Qantas' business will not suffer to even the least noticeable degree over this, I assure you. But the guy who got bumped from his flight did suffer to some measurable degree.
He knew the battle he took on as he donned his shirt and set off to the airport, didn't he? If he didn't, he would have changed his shirt when prompted to do so. He was
TRYING to make a statement, he did just that, he fought a battle he couldn't possibly win, and he lost. No surprise there.
If his lost battle wins over the hearts of sympathizers... this will need to be seen, and I even see parrallels between this and the Ed Brown/tax evasion case, but this is so much
more dismissable IMHO. It's miniscule in comparison. I can't see him even getting his own wife to rally against the "oppressive" airline, let alone a small group of "supporters".
[EDIT: Hmm... bad analogy, Fester. Poor Ed Brown couldn't get support from his wife, either! :( I'm sure you all get my meaning, though...]
It is vitally important, but seeing as how you only get one life, you need to pick your battles. All I'm saying is don't waste yourself on something that's not going to make a
difference. If you're a "direct action protest" kind of guy, then more power to you. I have no problem with that at all...I just hope act in a way that's going to get the most
bang for your buck, so to speak.
Most eloquently put, if I might say so, myself... :)
Reaction #1: If you choose your fight and lose... don't cry. Choose your fights more wisely next time, get a nice buttonup shirt for flying, and stuff the political statement in
your checked luggage before you board. Simple.
Reaction #2: Lock yourself in your house armed to the teeth while sporting your Bush/terrorist shirt, invite many armed militia members over who share your views, start a
blog referencing your actions and political stances, and dare the airline to "come get ya"! :rolleyes:
First Ammendment violation if this were inside the borders of the USA? Yes. Worth losing more than even the cost of the offending shirt? No.
@ any and all Americans: Never lose sight of the second Amendment to the US Constitution... it is this amendment that ensures all the others remain intact...

Surely the simple victory would be to wear a shirt over the T-shirt, then, about 3 minutes into the flight, remove overshirt and display message. If they get pissy, say you spilt
something over your shirt, so you can't put it back on. What are they going to do? Arrest you on landing? That would be a far, far harder thing to do and then justify, especially
if you simply ignored the steward.
Far more bang for the buck, and you even get to take your flight. The UK does have some crasy rules about flying, though. Cough too loudly and the bastards over here will
charge you with something retarded. And that would scupper his citizenship. (Which, if you think Oz is bad, you haven't been over here very long!)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Easy Entry
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paroxysm January 22nd, 2007, 06:30 PM

Sorry to start a new topic but i couldnot find any new links that relate to this, first of all, before you buy sou thord pick sets
watch this:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-909464103 5 2 2 0 6 9 9 7 2 7 & q = l o c k p i c k + m a k i n g
and for how to m a k e b u m p k e y s t h i s i s t h e b e s t i n m y o p i n i o n
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-517721394 9 3 0 0 1 4 0 8 5 0 & q = b u m p + k e y
Guys beware, in the uk anyway, before using any gloves before theoretically thinking of comm itting any sort of crime buy latex
NOT nitrile gloves, these have b e e n i m printed from the factory with a 'fingerprint' this can be traced down to batch n u m b e r s
and from there down to distributors and through staff to you.
tiac03 January 23rd , 2007, 01:16 AM

Easy entry fo r what? Takes a few m onths of constant practice to learn to pick sim ple locks quickly enough. Bum pkeys still take
long er than a Brick and you need a bum pkey to match the lock type. If you want to take up the hobby of lock picking by all
m e a n s m ake your own picks, believe me the only thing better than picking a lock is picking one with som ething you m a d e .
(Sort of like setting off explosives. Get m ore jo y from hom e m a d e ) .
If you want to get into B&E Use a brick and crowbar.
festergrump January 23rd , 2007, 02:02 AM

Easy entry fo r what?
I think it meant 'easy entry' for the Beast. It signed up yesterda y b u t l o o k e d a r o u n d e n o u g h t o k n ow it's breaking rules, yet
not enough to find any of the gazillion threads that any of the three topics m e n t i o n e d i n t h e O P m ight fit in... it's got sacrificial
virgin written all over it...
..."Let's get the fuck outa here, Tiac! This just ain't..." (everything goes quiet all of a sudden) "...Something just ain't feeling
so right!"
AAAaaaiiiiiieeeeee!!
tiac03 January 23rd , 2007, 02:20 AM

HAHAA But isn't this the water cooler where newbie's can Post whole worth less thre ads without fear of being banned.......
:: Notices the awkward silence and to be on the safe side slowly exits the thread as to not be caught in the Maelstrom that is
NBK. ::
c.Tech January 23rd , 2007, 03:00 AM

Although you can post without m uch of a fear o f being banned failing to use proper gram m a r a n d U T F S E d u e t o l a z i n e s s
usually gets them b a n n e d .
I t s m o r e likely he will get a 2nd chance in the W C .
nbk2000 January 23rd , 2007, 09:50 AM

The fact that he posted in the W C was his saving grace.
P a r o x y s m , there are plenty of existing threads you could have p osted these videos in, such as the bum p-k ey thread, any of
n u m erous threads on lockpick s, or the Forum video thread.
Oh, and the i/I capitalization failure is sure death if I see it in future postings by you. U se a G o d - d a m n s p e l l c h e c k !
Now, what's this about 'fingerprints' em bedded in nitrile gloves? Do you have a URL that you post to verify this claim ? If this is
true, and you can pro ve it, it'll be your saving grace. :)
paroxysm January 23rd , 2 0 0 7 , 0 7 : 2 8 P M

M y e m p l o y e r s s h o p w a s b r o k e n into a few weeks back a nd I spoke to the site forensics team .
I can't find a link anywhere but you will just have to take my word for it, until I can attach a copy of the report given by
forensics and police at the tim e.
T h i s m ay help I'm no t sure.
http://www.forensic.gov.uk/forensic/products/fors/subject/m a r k s / i n d e x . h t m

There are two issues with these gloves. One is that if you get oil/paint/grease/transferred skin oils from scratching your nose/
etc. on them, they fit so closely to your skin that it is sometim e s p o s s i b l e t o l e a v e a l a t e n t print behind. Anything with a decent
thickness of m aterial won't have this issue, of course.
T h e o t h e r d a nger is that you let the gloves be found, and the fo rensics team turn them in side out and take the prints off the
inside of them . Being a smooth surface, and all... They could quite easily swab the inside for DNA too, which would link you with
the gloves.
There is a way to link the powdered gloves with the suspect and the crim e scene, through the trace s of the powder left behind,
but that only applies to latex powdered gloves, and not nitrile, which are clean and dry.
sdjsdj January 30th , 2007, 09:51 AM

Not that I would have experience of any form o f illegal activity whatsoever, but latex gloves would seem the obvious choice;
j u s t d o u s e t h e m i n g o o d o l ' f a s h i o n e d p r o p a n o n e ( a c e t o n e - y e s , I ' m pedantic) a n d s u d d e n l y b e i n g sure you ever had any
gloves is hard enough, let alone lifting prints off what's left.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > AgNO 3 + S ---> Ex p l o d e u n d e r
h a m mer blow?
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This could make a good replacem ent for sulphur alone in KMnO4 flash or be used instead of KMnO4 in flash
W ell should I try som e tests with it alone then com bine with Zinc or possibly as a Sulphur replacem ent in m y KMnO 4:Zn:S flash
Or is it far too sensitive.
Anyone know the reaction products AgS + NO x ? D o e s n t s e e m rig ht to me .
nbk2000 January 25th , 2 0 0 7 , 1 0 : 3 0 P M

Silver, costing $13.27 an ounce, is a good replacement for sulphur, sulfur costing less than $0.25/pound? :confused:

Y o u m i s u n d e r s t a n d m ixed with sulphur, and I just want to experiment since I have a ready supply of lab stock which is past its
u s e f u l n e s s u n d e r t h e I S O 1 7 0 25 scheme ( >5years in m y lab)
nbk2000 January 26th , 2007, 05:20 AM

If you've got enough to use in pyro, why not co nvert it into base silver and sell it, using th e m oney to buy m ore che micals for
real pyro?
FUTI January 26th , 2007, 10:06 AM

Not bad idea but only as catalyst of som e kind. AgNO 3 is too costly to be used as m ain ingredient in pyro.
My guess is that reaction isn't sim ple but starts like you proposed. I believe that NO x g e n e r a t e d p r o p a g a t e other chemical
reaction through interaction with sulphur (maybe converting sulphur to polysulphides), and then God knows where does it ends.

a n y i d e a s o n what would be a good ratio 1:1 1:3, AgNO3:S
cracker January 26th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 6 : 4 5 P M

If you've got enough to use in pyro, why not co nvert it into base silver and sell it, using th e m oney to buy m ore che micals for
real pyro?
This is a very new ide a to m e, is this som ething that can be don e t o C a d m i u m S u l f a t e ? I h a v e 1 8 2 l b s o f t h i s s u b s t a n c e .
nbk2000 January 26th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 8 : 5 8 P M

You could do it with cadm ium sulfate too. UTFSE (AKA Google) and figure it out.

W ell that did n t d o m u c h a p a r t f r o m t h e e m i s s i o n o f c o p i o u s a m ounts of red NOx, ignited with KMnO4 and glycerol it did leave
a d a r k m e l t e d m ess of sulphur so it could have a use for yellow powder since it only heated it enough to melt the sulphur.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > He's on a mission from God!
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I wonder how long he got away with this before he pisse d off the local cops and one dim e d o n h i m .
http://tinyurl.com/24kuyn

LOL, his only as bad as the pigs who a buse their authority with sirens but I dont see a entire story devoted to them .
Nice how they put a terrorism s p i n o n t h e e n d t o k e e p t h e p o p u l a t i o n f e a ring for their safety. :rolle yes:

I d o n ' t s e e h im as actually having done anything illegal. Cunning, though.
This is a problem we are now seeing in the U K. Ten years ago, it was the police, and that was that. The only exception were the
Specials, and they we re exactly the sam e as regular police, but part-tim e, with a restriction of one force are a away from hom e
for powers of arrest, so irrelevant for everyday things, since they had the same uniform, job, etc. they were just parttimers.
Now, we have dozens of random organ isations. There are "Street crim e p atrols", "Highways authority", traffic warden s are in on
the act, and the new Com m unity Support people, and m ore. Suddenly, it becomes far easier to dress up and answe r to no-
o n e , a s l o n g a s y o u d o n ' t t a k e t h e p i s s . O ne council has even kitted out the park wardens, and uses them as a private police
force, despite them h aving no powers outside the parks (not that they can legally do much even inside a park) they are
arresting people, and cuffing them and carrying C S gas illegally!
I'm not suprised this guy got away with it for so long.
anonymous411 January 30th , 2007, 05:11 AM

R e m inds me of a great joke:
A little old lady gets onto a crowded bus, then clutches her chest and says to the young girl seated in front of her, "If you kn ew
what I have, you would give m e your seat."
T h e g i r l g e t s u p a n d g i v e s u p h e r s e a t , t h e n t a k e s h e r m a g a z i n e a n d s t a r t s f a n n i n g h e r s e lf.
T h e w o m a n l o o k s u p a n d s a y s , " I f y o u knew what I have, you would give m e that so I cou ld cool off."
The girl gives her the m a g a z i n e .
Several minutes go by, then the woma n gets up and says to the bus driver, "I want to get off right here."
The bus driver says she has to wait until he gets to the next stop, a block away.
She clutches her chest again and tells him, "If you knew what I have, you'd let me off right now."
The bus driver pulls over, opens the door and tells her she can get off th e b u s . A s s h e s t e p s d o w n h e s a y s , " M a ' a m , I h o p e
you don't m i n d m y a s k i n g , b u t what is it you have?"
And the wom a n s a y s , " C h u t z p a h ! "

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > House Explodes in Missouri
City, TX
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Enkidu January 26th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 7 : 1 6 P M

NBC News (http://www.click2ho uston.com /news/1084166 1/detail.htm l)
ABC News (http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=4969534)
Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4497976.htm l)
The other night, I was on the phone with a buddy making preparations to dream about just this so rt of thin g. He lives about a
quarter m ile from the d e m o l i s h e d h o u s e . I h e a r d a r u m b l e t h r o u g h t h e p h o n e , a n d h e g o t q u i e t . H e s a i d t h e b l a s t s h o o k h i s
h o u s e . I t ' s a m azing to m e that the house is co mpletely flattened, except for the chimney.
It's kinda hum orous, considering nobo dy got killed. Rem inds m e a little bit of Fig ht Club with the natural gas leak and without
t h e h o m e m a de TNT. Do you think grandm a blew it up for the insurance money?:D
FUTI January 28th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 3 : 2 6 P M

"You would think with the blast com ing from across the street it would send the stuff into the hom e but it fell outward," she
said.
Y e a p i t l o o k s l i k e a e r o s o l e x p l o s i o n f r o m that backblast description...methane or coal dust from the chim ney are my starting
theories.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Active Camouflage
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_SAS_ January 27th , 2 0 0 7 , 1 0 : 5 2 P M

In m y recent search for martial art and cam ouflage related inform ation, I cam e across a prototype developm ent of active
optical camouflage by a japan e s e c o m p a n y .
I found this link interesting because the object being ca m o u f l a g e d a p p e a r s a s t r a n s p a r e n t , b u t i s n 't.
I n c l u d e d i n a l i n k o n t h e p a g e i s a b r i e f e x p l a n ation of the principle of optical camouflage.
(sorry if it's a bullshit link)

http://projects.star.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/projects/MEDIA/xv/oc.html
orangeman January 29th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 8 : 4 8 P M

I have seen it to. I was fiirst saw it on the discovery channel, the did m o r e r e s e r c h a n d f o u n d t h e s a m e s i t e . T h a t i s t h e b e s t
info out their at the m o m ent.
Pretty Cool isn't it
Jacks Complete February 2nd, 2007, 08:14 AM

It's not fake, but it is quite useless outside of specific circum stances. There are hundreds of photos of people doing this with
laptop screens, too. See http://www.flickr.com/photos/ckem p / 7 3 1 9 6 2 2 / f o r e x a m p l e .
To use this in a tactical situation, mount the projector above the door, paint everything wh ite, and project m o v i n g c a m o a n d
figures of people (wom e n a n d kids) onto it. Then wear a white boiler suit and carry a matt white weapon.
The downside is that the light will be shineing in your eyes. Probably m ore use for a training system for CQB or som ething, or
if yo u h a v e a r e m o t e g u n , t o h i d e t h a t . T h i n k m u z z l e f l a s h s i m u lation. :-)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > KIO3 - Ho w good of an
o x i d izing agent is it?
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I have a bit of this stuff available to m e P o t a s s i u m I o d a t e
It sounds interesting has anyone had any experience with it in flash comps?
"Violent reaction with alum inum , arsenic, carbon, copper, metals, sulphides, organic matter, phosphorus an d sulphu r"
I l i k e t h e s o u n d s o f S u l p h i d e s / m etals for m y Zinc/KMnO 4/S flash or just with a mix of Zinc/Sulphur
Also it appears Alum inum /Copper is singled out and not just bunched in with m e t a l s
My lab procedures requires it for Sodium Thiosulphate standardisation, it m u s t b e d r i e d s o I a s s u m e it is Hygroscop ic and

therefore a little unstable in powder mixes?
I take it I should not mix this with sulphur like chlorate?
Any requests for any particular reaction?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Spicy explosives
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INFERNAL-AFFAIRS January 29th, 2007, 02:02 PM

Hello, I have come up with something interesting while I was doing some experiments on hydrogen peroxide, I was trying to
oxidize some stuff with a friend of mine & we managed to oxidize some pepper with hydrogen peroxide.
Using highly concentrated peroxide I soaked some grains of black pepper for four days then dried them .the resulting grains
were almost the same but they became explosive, I detonated some of them using hammer, but the stuff has low sensitivity
& not dangerous to deal with.
Now Im soaking some powdered pepper, it will be ready in two days, powder as obvious is easier to detonate but if you get
the grains without powdering them you could grind them to the size that fits your purpose.
The proportions are easy, just soak the pepper with peroxide so that the pepper is completely drowned & the peroxides
surface is a little higher than he pepper in the container that you are using.
nbk2000 January 29th, 2007, 03:12 PM

I was almost about to ban you for posting what appears to be a typical k3wL recipe, but I thought about the remote possibility
that this may actually be possible because of the percentage of oxidizable piperidine present in black pepper.
However, we know that an acid is required to catalyze the reaction, and where is your acid? Already present in the pepper?
If this actually is possible, I'm sure someone else here will be sure to let us know very quickly by repeating your experiment.
Of course, this assumes that you detailed the specifics adequately in the first place.
OK people, have at 'em. :D

I will repeat what type of pepper corns black peppercorns?
how strong H2O2 30%
inside or outside? in a clear or brown bottle? what temperature? light or dark?

Actually, I stopped reading at "I was trying to oxidize some stuff with a friend".
Cue: http://tinyurl.com/yg87fp
mrtnira January 30th, 2007, 01:43 AM

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=251&sid=1005214
NYPD Hosts Counterterrorism Conference

Dec 14th - 5:30am
Federal News Radio AM 1050
By TOM HAYS
Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK (AP) - Inside an ordinary-looking trailer in Brooklyn, police have recreated the ramshackle apartment used by
terrorists to cook up the explosives used last year in the suicide bombings of the London transit system.
Strewn about are empty bottles of hydrogen peroxide and containers of pepper. Filthy hot plates sit on a counter. Industrial
fans provide ventilation.
The New York Police Department uses the replica as a training tool to help patrol officers, firefighters and other emergency
personnel recognize bomb-making lairs that could be mistaken for a methamphetamine laboratory or simply a messy home,
NYPD officials said Wednesday at a counterterrorism conference.
"It's not that easy to identify to the uninitiated," said Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly.
Kelly and other NYPD officials addressed dozens of law enforcement officials from New York, New Jersey, Connecticut and
Pennsylvania at the start of a two-day seminar at police headquarters.
The group was to tour the replica apartment to dramatize what the NYPD officials described as a mounting threat of
homegrown terrorists _ possibly young men incited by radical rhetoric found on the Internet _ who could hatch plots in suburbs
and other outlying communities.
"It's reasonable to assume that any attack on New York City may very well be put together _ the logistics, the planning aspects
of the plot _ outside the city," Kelly said.
NYPD officials have done an exhaustive study of last year's London bombing, believing it could serve as a template for future
strikes against targets in the city. At Wednesday's conference, they noted that the four suicide bombers lived well north of
London, near Leeds, and commuted by car and rail to launch a coordinated attack on three subway trains and a bus, killing 52
people and wounding more than 700.
In the aftermath, police in New York had intelligence officers simulate the commute by driving from Albany to Poughkeepsie,
where they caught a train to Grand Central Terminal.
"The reason we did that was to give us a frame of reference, to give us some sense of the challenges someone might face in
doing something similar here in New York," Kelly said. "It also highlighted the regional aspect of the threat."
The mock-up of the apartment that the bombers had rented in Leeds for their makeshift lab was recreated with the help of
photos and information provided by British authorities, NYPD officials said. Investigators believe the suicide bombers cooked
up their explosives on hot plates using mundane items like hydrogen peroxide and pepper.
nbk2000 January 30th, 2007, 03:17 AM

Jihadhi's are well known for their love of all things k3wL, so it's entirely possible that the ragheads were following some k3wL
recipe that they had found on the internet, thus giving credence to the (probable) stupidity of pepper-peroixide explosives.

"Experiment"? Don't get me wrong, I think it's great he's interested in science. But throwing unspecified quantities of random
shit together and detonating it with a hammer to test potency isn't exactly my idea of a proper use of the scientific method.
If there were more behind it than that, he should have provided a modicum of detail in the write-up. Failing that, people are
going to conclude he's just some kid playing Russian roulette with blowing his his hands off. No matter how interesting his idea
may be, if he can't prove it, it's irrelevant.
If you can't organize a real experiment, you need to a) read more until you're competent or b) fuck off and stop wasting our
time. Either one is a-okay by me.

I was about to engage in some serious newb bashing, but did a search before I did so.
http://blackhole.xerces.com/archive/index.php/t-1926.html
What the fuck? Hydrogen Peroxide sensitised with cummin....?
Is it just me, or does it look like they are alluding to boiling H2O2 until it is a very high % (say above 80%) and then using
cummin to set it off?
So shit, if thats true, why the fuck not pepper? I still don't see how soaking pepper in H2O2 would cause it to become an
explosive, but hell, stranger things (it seems) have happened.
I'm still looking.
If its around, it must be some cutting edge rag-head tech JUST released to the jihadi fucks.
Later:
Here is what the "bomb factory" looks like

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_headline=the-bedsit-bombers&method=full&objectid=18415687&siteid=94762-
name_page.html
Looks like the flour/pepper was the "desensitize" the AP.
Also there is this (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/007871.html). What the hell...? Here they are practically
calling AP a "liquid binary explosive" and saying that making it with 3 house hold ingredients are crap. *shakes head*. Some
people will believe anything.
I gotta say though, sounds like bullshit. Internal Affairs, I think you're full of shit. Maybe you chucked all the stuff for AP
together then decided to add pepper corns, and had the AP form inside the corns?
Thats all I can think of.

Alexires, I don't know what you are talking about in reference to the third article. It was a well written and fairly accurate article
bashing the idea that TATP is anything like a liquid binary explosive, I suggest you read it again.
The Mirror article was also surprisingly accurate, the only disinformation I saw was that AP synthesis requires 30% Hydrogen
Peroxide. It looks like the government is giving up on the idea of trying to keep TATP a secret, because it is impossible to do
so. That article even mentioned us "There are even chat rooms, people having conversations about making bombs." Although
we aren't a chatroom, and I am offended by the insinuation that what we talk about is mainly bombs, we talk about explosives
not bombs(although occasionally bombs are discussed).
As to the pepper explosive, I am extremely skeptical, but I might give it a try today just to disprove this , I think I have some
peroxide left over from back in the day. I am going to feel extremely k3wl doing it though :(

What black cumin and black pepper have in common:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoterpenes
I'm sure somebody around here who's properly trained could cut to the fucking chase, come up with something more efficient,
and explain to the rest of us precisely what's happening and why. Now THAT's a post I'd want to read.
***
"Ripe black cumin fruits are reported to contain an essential oil (up to 7%) rich in monoterpene aldehydes; the main
components are cuminaldehyde, p-mentha-1,3-dien-7-al and p-mentha-1,4-dien-7-al (up to one third each); terpene
hydrocarbons are the main components of fruits collected in the wild or harvested unripe ( -terpinene, p-cymene, -pinene,
limonene). The latter compounds are thought to reduce the quality of the spice. (J. Essent. Oil Res., 9, 597, 1997), (J. Essent.
Oil Res., 14, 161, 2002,) (Food Chem., 41, 129, 1991)"
***
Original Article
Volatile Constituents of Black Pepper. III. The Monoterpene Hydrocarbon Fraction
1Department of Food Science and Technology, University of California, Davis
SUMMARY
The monoterpene hydrocarbons of black pepper oil were isolated both by vacuum distillation and by thin-layer
chromatography. The following compounds were separated by gas chromatography and identified by infrared and ultraviolet
spectroscopy: -pinene, -pinene, sabinene, -carene, limonene, and p-cymene. There is evidence for the presence of a-
thujene, -phellandrene, myrcene, -phellandrene, y-ter-pinene, and terpinolene. The monoterpenes isolated by thin-layer
chromatography also contained small quantities of -terpinene and greater quantities of -terpinene, p-cymene, and
terpinolene.
knowledgehungry January 31st, 2007, 12:50 AM

Aldehydes certainly can pe peroxidized.
I would greatly appreciate some more information about the "synthesis"(I use the term loosely) especially the concentration of
H2O2. If it was a 50% + then we may be dealing with sensitizing Hydrogen Peroxide rather than the creation of a new
compound. If this is the case I have not the ability ot test this myself as I only have 30% H2O2(if I indeed still have it).
Alexires January 31st, 2007, 05:09 AM

Sorry knowledgehungry, I let my cynisicm blind me. I saw what I wanted to see.
I'm just so sick of all the media spin doctoring, of religion, of political bullshit, etc. *mutters*
Ok, so its possible that it is an explosive ketone along the same lines as MEKP of AP. But once again, the problem of a
catalyst. AFAIK, an aldehyde cannot be oxidised by H2O2 alone. Then again, what the hell do I know? I'm only basing my
knowledge on a very small resource pool.
Someone want to refute or agree with me? I'll ask at uni tomorrow.
I have 50% H2O2 at home. If you want me to give it a go, I'll see if we have any black pepper on the weekend and I'll try.
Internal-affairs, and hints on the process you used?
Edit: The only reference that I can find is on wikipedia (and we all know how accurate that is). It gives a warning against
mixing hydrogen peroxide with aldehydes as it may result in organic peroxides when left for "hours". Whether this is catalysed
by some other waste, or simply a hydrogen peroxide + aldehyde reaction, I don't know.
I probably hate you February 1st, 2007, 09:58 PM

Infernal-affairs where are you ? Don't you want to collaborate on your thread ? I think you are risking being labeled a k3wl ?
Did you actually do this or did you get drawn into some totse BS and unfortunately believe it ? I am out of h2o2 otherwise I
would give it a try .
Gammaray1981 February 2nd, 2007, 04:40 PM

I couldn't get it to work, having left it for four hours... but that said, I was only using about 25% H2O2, and very dry black
peppercorns. So either it doesn't work, or you need rather stronger H2O2 than I have available. I'm leaning towards the
former - this entire idea seems a little to TOTSE-ish to my mind.
knowledgehungry February 3rd, 2007, 11:44 PM

From what I have read on the peroxidation of aldehydes it takes a while for it to occur(especially if no acid catalyst). Internal
affairs did say that he left the pepper for four days. I still think this is a hoax, but to be completely justified in flaming this
guy we need to at least follow his "method".

Has anyone checked the pH of the pepper in solution after 4 days? It is possible there is some acidity, and since phosphoric
acid is added to hydrogen peroxide to stabilize it, the reaction may just proceed given an extended reaction time.
Throwing together chemicals and systematically reacting them is how the ancients did it. Those guys would nitrate everything in
sight. How else would we get nitro sugars, nitro grasses, and nitro motor oil (all in Encyclopedia of Explosives).
Onward fellow Rogue Scieans, let the peer review process commence!

Wouldn't surprise me if the next TSA advisory banned all condiments, especially pepper, from airplanes. Prepare for even
fouler tasting airline food. :p
stupid939 February 4th, 2007, 02:57 PM
I just checked the pH of my solution which has been sitting since 10:11 PM on 2/1/07. It seems to have a pH of around 4 (my
Baquacil 27% H2O2 is just about as acidic).
I may dry out a small sample to see if it will detonate from a smack with a hammer. I started out with 10g of ground pepper
and 100ml of H2O2, so I should have plenty to test over the next few days.
ultma February 5th, 2007, 04:41 AM

Using highly concentrated peroxide I soaked some grains of black pepper for four days
Does any one have any H2O2 >30%?
Chaosmark February 5th, 2007, 09:30 AM

Aside from UTFSE, if you had READ THE BLASTED THREAD you would have seen Alexires say, and I quote:
I have 50% H2O2 at home. If you want me to give it a go, I'll see if we have any black pepper on the weekend and I'll try.
And people wonder why we get so annoyed with people who can't be bothered to help themselves and do a little bit of reading.
It's because with just a liiiiiitle bit of work, this forum will answer almost any scientific question you can think of. Start reading
people, otherwise NBK will frag you so fast you'll wish you were Princess Diana.
Edit: Having had a few hours to think about this, I think I'll lay off on the ranting from now on. Since I haven't really added too
much to the thread myself, I don't quite feel confident in laying into others like that. My point still stands however.
Alexires February 5th, 2007, 08:17 PM

As does my offer. I think I will try it this weekend, because I am interested to know myself. I'll leave it for a week, and I might
try two batches, one with an acid catalyst and one without.
Anything else anyone wants me to try while I'm at it?

Anything else anyone wants me to try while I'm at it?
Ground and whole pepper corns
anonymous411 February 6th, 2007, 06:45 AM

Alexires: Yes. Try reading this and other research like it:
Evaluation of commercially important chemical constituents in wild black pepper types
C. K. Mathai1, P. M. Kumaran1 and K. C. Chandy2

(1) Central Plantation Crops Research Institute, Regional Station, 574 243 Vittal, Karnataka
(2) Pepper Research Station, 670 141 Panniyoor, Kerala, India
Abstract Matured black pepper berries from 8 wild types, on chemical screening, showed wide variations in commercially
important constituents. The results have been compared with those of the cultivated varieties. The possibility of exploitation of
this information in black pepper quality improvement programmes is discussed.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w2q321w058820705/
Once you're thoroughly familiar with the chemical composition of cultivated varieties of pepper, go buy several types at the
gourmet store and compare results from different strains. Even better, structure your experiments around precise, minute
quantities of essential oil (also available at gourmet stores). Based on what reading I've done, pepper from Sri Lanka is
supposedly the highest in terpenes; try that. Once you know a LOT more about what's working and why, start testing other
spices that contain the same chemicals. If pepper and cumin work, why not others? From wikipedia:
"Terpenoids contribute to the scent of eucalyptus, the flavors of cinnamon, cloves and ginger and the color of yellow flowers.
Well-known terpenoids include citral, menthol, camphor and the cannabinoids found in the Cannabis plant."
And of course, as soon as I read pepper contains alpha-pinene and beta-pinene, this was the big one that immediately came
to mind:
TURPENTINE
Turpentine is a fluid obtained by the complex distillation of resin obtained from trees, mainly various species of pine (Pinus).
It is composed of terpenes, mainly the monoterpenes alpha-pinene and beta-pinene.
I'm not sure what you could do with it safely (if anything!) so reading everything you can is essential--but as long as you're
game, it's worth looking into. And for Christ's sake, find some other way of testing potency than banging it with a hammer. Do
far more reading than fucking around and you'll be ahead.
INFERNAL-AFFAIRS February 6th, 2007, 12:05 PM

I'm sorry for the poor information about the quantities of materials but it's not easy to predict the right amounts since pepper
is not a pure compound, any way as Alexires mentioned I raised the concentration of peroxide from 45% to 80% or a little bit
more then I soaked it.
One more thing, I'm not a jackass, when I used a hammer to test the stuff, I didn't detonate a kilo or something like that, it
hardly was a gram.

But the question is, has anyone else been able to replicate this?
Without reliable replication by other parties it's not science...it's bullshit.
jimmyboy1 February 8th, 2007, 05:06 AM

This guy is jerking your collective chains - piperine is an amine not a ketone and all the other chems in pepper are only there
in trace amounts
Alexires February 8th, 2007, 06:45 AM

...as Alexires mentioned I raised the concentration of peroxide from 45% to 80% or a little bit more then I soaked it.
Ahhh, a high concentration H2O2 huh? My guess is if anything, its the H2O2 going off, not some kind of pepper peroxide. We
know that H2O2 is unstable at that kind of concentration.
The H2O2 probably soaked into the pepper, and when you hit it, it decomposed.
.....Why would you waste it trying to oxidizing pepper?

I have prepared a sample according to what limited resources and instructions that I have.
I'll write a report when I test it next weekend, but basically I am preparing 4 samples of this pepper.
2 samples of 0.5g of crushed black pepper was prepared, as well as 2 samples of 0.5 whole pepper kernels.
They were then added to 4 seperate lots 10ml of 50% H2O2. To 2 lots of the solution (one with whole pepper and one with
crushed pepper), 2 drops of 32% HCl was added.
A colour change (from clear to brown) was seen 10 minutes after the addition of the pepper. This colour change was only
observed in the crushed pepper corns.
18-20 hours after the addition of the pepper, a colour change was observed in the solution which contained whole pepper
corns.
Whatever it is going to do, it should have done it by saturday (its currently sunday).
Ill report back when I know more.
Chaosmark February 17th, 2007, 11:07 AM

We eagerly await the pepper peroxide (dis)proof. (I was going to try it myself, but I've no easily available source of good
conc. H2O2.)

Hypothesis: That common black pepper can be "sensitised" by oxidation via H2O2.
Introduction: The experiment is occuring in direct response to INFERNAL-AFFAIRS post that common black pepper, when left in
a solution of high concentration H2O2 becomes explosive in some way.
Method: Two samples of whole black pepper corns and two samples of crushed black pepper corns were prepared. These
samples were weighed out on a set of scales and each sample weighed 0.5+-0.1g. The samples were seperated into different
glass containers, and to each was added 10ml of 50% H2O2.
To one sample of whole pepper and to one sample of crushed pepper, two drops of 32% HCl was added (in case some residue
acid was present in the original "experiment").
The samples were left for 7 days to ensure that the reaction proceeded (if any was going to occur).
Results: Upon addition of the H2O2, small bubbles were observed in the whole black pepper samples only.
No discernable temperature change was present.
After about 5 minutes, a colour change was observed in the H2O2 of the crushed black pepper (both samples). The colour
changed from clear to a light brown/orange colour. The same colour change was observed in the whole pepper corns after
about 10 minutes.
After 7 days, all the H2O2 in the samples had changed to a light yellow colour (similar to that of urine). The whole black
pepper corns had turned white in both samples. A biting smell was observed from all samples.
The samples were dried via cloth and then left in the sun for about 20 minutes. A single whole pepper corn was selected from
both samples and placed on an anvil.
This single pepper corn was then struck hard with a hammer. No sound was heard indicating that nothing had happened. It
seemed that the pepper corn was still wet inside. Upon repeating, I noticed something that looked like a whisp of smoke when
the pepper was struck. The hammer test was repeated again and again, still with the same "smoke" appearing. This occured
in both samples.
A single pepper corn was selected from both samples and exposed to flame. After a few seconds, a hissing was heard from
the pepper corn and an arcrid smoke issued from the corn. The pepper corn then continued to combust, even when the flame
was removed from the corn. This was repeated multiple times with the same result.
These same tests were repeated using pepper powder, but nothing occured.
Analysis: Well, I can tell you I was suprised that something happened. Unfortunately, I was unable to dry the pepper corns to
bone dryness, but still some positive results occured. I was intrigued by this smoke that seemed to issue from the corns when
they were struck. This smoke was very light and difficult to discern. It is possible that it was simply juice or H2O2 spraying from
the side of the crushed corn. I couldn't smell anything, but it didn't look quite right to be juice from the corns.
Also intriguing was the self combustion of the pepper corn when heated. Possible explainations for this is some kind of
oxidation had occured inside the pepper corn, and this was combusting. Personally, I believe that it was the H2O2
decomposing into O2 causing an oxygen-rich environment inside the corn which lead to combustion. The smell from the
burning corns was quite unplesant, and I felt lightheaded when I stood up afterwards. This could be from the smoke, but I
think its from the blood I donated the other day *grin*.
Conclusion: While the results were in no way definitive, they are enough for me to recommend that some more
experimentation occurs. If someone could repeat the experiment, but with proper drying apparatus (not an oven) then maybe
we could definately say yes or nay. Also, someone with access to a greater H2O2 concentration might want to give it a try as
well.
If you have a problem, or something you'd like to ask about my method, please do. I am in no way infallable or a brilliant
chemist. I did the best I could with my gear and time. *grin*
How interesting, people.
mil&co February 18th, 2007, 12:34 PM

Certainly interesting.
Possible further experimentation:
1. Trying the synth. with even more conc. hydrogen peroxide.

2. Trying the synth. with pure piperine, a method of extraction is described on lambdasyn (http://www.lambdasyn.org/synfiles/
piperin.html). That way you're free of other shit possibly screwing up the reaction.
3. Trying the synth. with other "spicy" aromatic aldehydes such as capsaicin.:p
After 7 days, all the H2O2 in the samples had changed to a light yellow colour (similar to that of urine).
That might be due to the piperine, which has a yellow collor.
Furthermore, I don't know whether the supposed peroxide would be water soluble, maybe freezing the leftover filtrate liquor
after the pepper particles have been filtered out to see if there is an ppt.
FUTI February 18th, 2007, 02:13 PM

If the piperine is cause of this (which I doubt...I put my money on some spurious reaction with terpenoid compounds which is
hard to replicate as Alexires showed us by experiment) someone should test this with white pepper IIRC that one has highest
piperine content of all kinds of pepper. I would do it myself but alas that spice is a rare bird where I live...or at least I didn't
find it so far.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Dangerous Briefcase
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I had a physics teacher who used to be employed by the government in some think tank for the Air Force. Great teacher, always went off on rants about killing things and
dead babies. One day he mentioned this briefcase that they used to carry around sensitive documents. It looked like an ordinary briefcase but inside it was far from ordinary. It
contained a 25-30 lb rotating mass (think bicycle tire filled with lead) spinning at around 10,000 rpm.
When someone would try to steal the briefcase out of the couriers hand they would inherently rotate it quite fast thus either it would break there hand, fly out of there hand, or
take there legs out from under them.
Has anyone ever heard of something that crazy? Has anyone ever heard of using gyroscopic motion as a anti-theft device of any kind?

Nope, never heard of it... but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if his friends at the think tank invented it for themselves. Semi-nuts geniuses with access to unlimited DoD money
come up with all kinds of crazy stuff to keep themselves entertained.

That's an incredible idea. Do you know how it was powered?
sdjsdj January 30th, 2007, 09:41 AM

The main problem with such a device would be keeping it in one place under normal circumstances; 35 lb at 10,000 rpm is a hell of a turning moment just waiting to happen.
If the rotating section of the case were spun up in advance, its momentum may remove the need for any motor - how fast would friction cause speed to decay?
I have seen a car anti-theft device which attatches to a steering wheel and rotates when a connected alarm is tripped; my favorite document protection system was developed
by the SOE and consisted of a cylindrical armoured case, with a lead-based paste (to prevent scanning for security systems) in its walls, multiple mechanical and electrical locks
and two conductive outer cases - if a drill or cutting disk were used to attempt entry, the gap between the two cases would be bridged and a thermite charge around the
documents within it would be destroyed - probably along with significant bits of whoever was foolish enough to attempt to gain access!

The main problem with such a device would be keeping it in one place under normal circumstances; 35 lb at 10,000 rpm is a hell of a turning moment just waiting to happen.
Thats the main problem I see with it acctually being feasible. If the courier has to make a left or a right turn there going to have to do it really slow to not have a floating
briefcase on there hands and even then It's going to be really hard. As long as they move in a tangential direction to the rotation or in the direction of the moment being
imparted on the wheel they would be fine. So basicly, the courier is confined to forward/backward and side to side. That just doesn't seem right.
The guy really knows his stuff so I wouldn't doubt the validity of it, just the problem of it acctually being used.
if a drill or cutting disk were used to attempt entry, the gap between the two cases would be bridged and a thermite charge around the documents within it would be destroyed
That's a good idea that pretty much any home hobbyist could do if he had any sensitive documents.
nbk2000 January 30th, 2007, 06:19 PM

If, instead of rotating in the vertical plane, it rotated parallel with the ground, then transportation wouldn't be a problem.
But then neither would stealing it.

This sounds hilarious, I would love to see someone trying to grab a brief case only to watch it break their arm off and fly thirty feet...
I would think that tolerances and give in the bearings would determine the sensativity. Any courier who knows what he is dealing with will probably go slow as balls to avoid
imparting the necessary force to move the disk in contact with the breaks or whatever was in the case.
This seems pretty impratical for document protection, but it would be fun to play with. Watching a seemingly harmless briefcase twist it's way up someones arm and break the
bejesus out of their bones out of no where would be entertaining to say the least.
Grapes Of Wraith January 30th, 2007, 07:29 PM

...and two conductive outer cases - if a drill or cutting disk were used to attempt entry...
Not all drill bits are made of conductive material.
sdjsdj January 31st, 2007, 04:19 AM

Hmm . . .
Perhaps filling the void with pressurized Nitrogen, and integrating a secondary (pressure loss) actuator for the thermite would be in order? It'd certainly make breaking in at
least a little more complex.
Sorry for going off topic.
Lewis January 31st, 2007, 10:48 PM

I can vouche for this technology working exceedingly well.
A few years ago I went to some science fair, and one of the exibits was this exact device, albeit much less powerful.
The breifcase had only a small cable trailing out of it, and when turned on, twisted its way out of even the strongest volunteers' hands.
Sausagemit February 1st, 2007, 03:44 AM

Any info/guess on the weight, size, and speed used Lewis?

Far too dangerous to be used. The version NBK suggests is the nearest to practical for a system that runs all the time, as it would be fine and noraml when walking along, but
if you tried to run... the change in the torque would flip it hard as you tried to swing it. Cuts down on your load space a heck of a lot, though.
A small incendiary to destroy vital papers has been done, many times. I recall a patent somewhere, as well as various (factual) books from the Second World War.
I'd go with a simple pressure switch to fire these things, with a sealed briefcase. Any penetration by anything would trip it, metallic or not. Oh, and there are very few non-
conductive drill bits about the place. A carbide tool would be about it, and they are rarely turned into a drill bit shape as it isn't strong enough to not shatter when it catches on
an edge or gets pushed sideways.

Why not just have a 5" aluminum cylinder with a screw on cap. Inside the cylinder is a LOT of high pressure gas, I am thinking 5,000 psi of nitrogen. The guy steals it and tries
to twist off the top. Being under pressure and sealed the guy is likely to hold it with the cap facing his face and when the cap does come off, it flies at him at a high speed
causing injury, and after a short delay 200-250 grams of PETN, allowing all those un injured time to come and see what the loud noise was, and become victim's to the
secondary explosion from the gotcha hidden in the bottom of the device which also shreds any papers to unrecoverable dust. To disarm the device a special key is inserted that
holds open the one way valve and bleeds the gas off slow enough that the internal barometric sensor doesn't sense the rapid pressure drop and set the detonator into short
delay mode. Instead it would go into a slightly longer delay witch would allow a little bit more time for the user to disarm the device .
One could also simply have a remote trigger (think dog trainer collars, press button to shock) which one would detonate a charge inside of an otherwise normal briefcase.
Imagine baiting this in a public area know for theft:
you leave briefcase in public area, some guy grabs it and tries to make off, you detonate the charge inside the handle, guy looses hand, and then you have justice as the
arabs have been doing it for theft for thousands of years :-)
cyclosarin February 5th, 2007, 12:59 AM

I didn't think you wanted the briefcase to be stolen.

Personally, I can't imagine booby-trapping my own equipment. How many people have been killed as a result of their own absentmindedness? Sheesh, as if I don't have
enough to worry about already...
My rule of thumb is the less papers you have around, the better. "Pulp and burn" beats "secure storage" any day.
PYRO500 February 5th, 2007, 01:44 AM

Isn't diversion a legitimate strategy? have the important papers in your pocket, carrying around what looks like a high security briefcase, yet when stolen, the thief looses a
hand, you keep everything close to you. Booby traps only work the way they are intended when they aren't dodgey and more complex than they need to be. Remember
NBK's KISS RTPB. It really does depend on what you are carrying though. If you have the nuclear football to protect then a team of armed guards might just be what you
need, yet if it is something like the account numbers you put the money you have embezzled from your company in you need another strategy.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Increase poison absorption ?
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hatal January 31st, 2007, 01:59 PM

I would like to know which chem ical substance(s) could increase absorption of battle agents and/or poisons? Could such a
chemical be prepared into an aerosol form and then be combined with comm on p oisons? My guesses were com m o n ly used
vasodilators known to widen blood vessels enhancing blood flow causing faster absorption. A special acid which damages
h u m an tissue enough to lead to faster absorption by the lungs or the skin? :confused: Bu t I ruled out both : available
vasodilators aren't su ited for this nor fast enough, and using acids would be counteracted by hum a n b o d y - m e c h a n i s m s s u c h a s
vasoconstriction. Search engin es weren't m uch of help o n this. Any ideas?

W ell you have to be m ore specific each poison is different, route of adm inistration, m e c h a n i s m of effect etc
F o r e x a m ple carbonated water increases the absorption of the poison ethanol
Fats can slow gastrointestinal absorption etc.
p o i s o n s a r e s t r a n g e a n d w o n d erful for example if you take vital amine c in high dose for at least 5 days before taking
paraquat it will help p rotect yo u if you take vital am ine c in high dose after you have taken paraquat it will do you m o r e h a r m .
Its all to do with the physiology and toxicology of the poison you plan to u s e .
But I guess you m e a n g a s e o u s p o i s o n s so m aybe warm ethanol vapour, nitro, or amyl nitrate
Heres some words th at might help you search better, synergistic (synerg y), potentiation.
nbk2000 January 31st, 2007, 03:47 PM

DMSO.
Now UTFSE.
...................

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > A Interesting R ealization.
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sbovisjb1 February 1st, 2007, 0 8 : 5 5 P M

I was in scho ol, talking to a person who I had little in comm en b efore and in reality not even known. To m y surprise, he was
heavily involved in pyrotechnics and the m akings of explosives. I was surprised that there are about 5-10 people in m y
s m a ll(ish) school who are interested in the sam e things, and not at the Totse level either. :D. Apparently such studies are
extrem ley popular am o u n g s t t h e m ore intelligent and curious person(s). And no they arn't shut-ins, nerds or loosers either. It
was quite surprising. :D. Please feel free to post how yo u m et like m inde d people or your gripes in knowing none.
Nihilist February 1st, 2007, 0 9 : 1 9 P M

I'm always surprised by who I find that's interested in these things. It's strange I find that the vast m ajority of people I m eet
and actually talk to are not 'sheeple', and are generally quite intelligent and share the sam e o p i n i o n s I d o o n s u b j e c t s s u c h a s
clandestine chemistry, recreational drugs, etc...I'm not sure how the sheep have m a n a g e d t o i n s i n u a t e t h e m selves into the
abstraction o f people while rem aining out of their manifestation, but it is an interesting property th e y h a v e .
Borknik February 1st, 2007, 0 9 : 3 9 P M

Yeah well it's pretty easy to write people off as sheeple, but I realized how idiotic that is. you have to get past the p reconceived
n o t i o n s a n d t a k e p e o ple for what they are, not by what you think or see on the outside.
btw, does anyone know where to post on unknown subtances? I'm new here and quite intim idated.
sbovisjb1 February 1st, 2007, 1 1 : 1 7 P M

Yeah. I agree with you there. The interesting characteristic that these friends have, is that they are all in the m ilitary.
knowledgehungry February 1st, 2007, 1 1 : 2 6 P M

Even if the m ajority of people you talk to about E&W are not sheeple, all it takes is one who is to bring a world of trouble down
upon you.
My trusted friends know about m y h o b b y , a n d m ost of them are interested to an extent, they like to see the results, but few
like to help.
T h e r e a s o n t h a t m o s t p e o p l e w h o m yo u talk to are not sheeple is that you probably have little in comm on with true sheeple,
thus no desire for interaction with them . IMHO wom en a re far m ore susceptible to b e i n g t u r n e d i n t o a s h e e p l e t h a n m e n , t h a t
is why m ales get in trouble m ore in school, etc. This is also why the media has such an anti-m a l e / p r o - f e m inism slant, if they
can just castrate men then they will have no on e to challenge their power and fear tactics. Governm ents use fear to control
people, cowa rdice has long be en revile d as a character trait in m en, while generally it is acceptable in wom en, if the corrupt
g o v e r n m e n t s h a d t h e ir way men would be more like wom en.
tiac03 February 2nd, 2007, 01:13 AM

All o f the People I know Although interested in the stuff Arn't anywhere near my level when it com es to knowledge o f the
"Hobby". Which is pretty bad because I don't know much about it myself.
B u t I d o h a v e a f r i e n d w h o h a s h e l p e d m e o u t i n m aking certain things, But for the m ost part the people I let know about m y
hobby like the finished product and de monstration more than th e m anufactoring, And thus would rather only be there for the
"Fun" part.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > The Boston Bomb Squad at Work
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Defendu February 1st, 2007, 11:16 PM

http://wbztv.com/topstories/local_story_031135507.html
wbztv.com - Arrest Made In Boston's Hoax Device Incident
The "bombs" in question:
http://wbztv.com/slideshows/local_slideshow_031203601
knowledgehungry February 1st, 2007, 11:37 PM

Thanks for posting this, I was going to but I hate making new threads.
Imagine what damage to a city's economy one could do leaving broken VCRs under benches in subway stations and malls!
This is the biggest overreaction I have seen in a long time, especially considering the items in question were in their places for weeks before anyone got alarmed.
I have my doubts that terrorists would make bombs with LED cartoon characters on them...

I was following this yesterday. The tow guys arrested should walk, the judge has already said that it isn't a hoax unless the devices were left "intending to cause fear or alarm"
and since they are clearly a light up advert, as long as the judge stays his line, they will be fine.
The city are rabid, though. The AG and mayor want them hung under terrorist offence laws! All to save face, since they made themselves look like idiots. And that can't be
allowed!
It's interesting to know that if you want to blow up a whole city, you can simply get a permit, then hang dozens of bombs up, then wipe out Boston, and that's fine, because
you got permission to put the signs up first.
I wonder if they normally treat the fly posters there this harshly?
nbk2000 February 2nd, 2007, 09:02 AM

What I thought was cool about the 'terrorists' was how, at the press conference, they'd only answer questions related to 70's hair-cuts. :D
They gave this situation all the dignity it deserved.
What I really found hilarious was the pictures of the goverment suits, all frowning and serious. :rolleyes:
Bert February 2nd, 2007, 11:28 AM

I particularly enjoyed the numerous mainstream media images of these infernal devices being held by frowning, serious suits... With the upraised middle finger blurred, in case
it should offend. Priceless!
Sausagemit February 2nd, 2007, 07:47 PM

If anything, this is exactly the type of publicity they were looking for. Nationwide mass media advertising is expensive and doesn't really get peoples attention. This, on the
other hand, will probably cost TB very little and reach out to a demographic that would not normally associate with the programming lineup.
My guess is Adult Swim will grow in popularity until they branch off into there own TV station. They already have some of the most innovative and awesome cartoons and
shows out there right now. They are solely responsible for the comeback of "Futurama". And they cater to my lust for violence and downright rudeness.
Some of my favorite clips....
The Venture Bros (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea7nhTjXV98), Metalocalypse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyR2uF-XDy8), Korgoth of Barbaria (http://

www.youtube.com/watch?v=omDTPbQLnmY)

I hear there are already t-shirts for the movie out about the incident, and the devices are selling on ebay for > $1000 a pop. I too thought their refusal to discuss anything
other than hair was humorous and ballsy. I hope I have the stones to be that flip if it came to it :)
I don't get the cartoon network sadly, but I do catch Aqua Teen Hunger Force every now and again.
Chaosmark February 4th, 2007, 01:33 PM

What got me was that one 'bomb technician' was quoted as saying that the device wasn't explosive, but contained all of the neccessary electronics for an improvised explosive
device. Frikkin' moron. Those things were around when I was a wee lil' lad.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > It was the first time for me.
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Dr_Flash-Boom February 2nd, 2007, 02:56 AM

Dear Group;
My name is Earl and I am new to the group. If you look at m y profile, you will see that I a m a n e x - h i p p i e , b a b y - b o o m er with
lots of hobbies and toys. I started flying hom e m a d e m o d e l r o c k e t s i n t h e s u m m er of 1959 just a few m onths before my twelfth
birthday. Miraculously, I still have all m y fingers and eyes. I can not say the sam e for several of m y early rocketeering [SIC]
buddies.
I was born and grew up in a sm all southern college town 38 m ile s east of Baton R o u g e , L o u i s i a n a a n d 5 6 m iles northwest of
New Orleans. Times were a lot slower in the South in 1959 and flying m odel rocke ts was really high tech; sort of like in the
m ovie O ctober Sky.
The leader of our aviation group, R., was the son of two college professors and lived across the street from the university. R.
was two years older than me and I was a year older than the other two m embers of our inner circle. I do no t rem e m ber what
got us interested in flying rockets, but it sure was a lot of fun an d full of adventures.
For the body of our rockets, we would scrounge around construction sites in the evenings and on weekends when no workers
were there and pick u p sm all pieces of thin wall conduit between 10 and 24 long and between 3/4 and 1-1/2 in diam eter.
Our rockets did not have a cone shaped nose or wings of any kind. W e would go to a weld ing and m a c h i n e s h o p a n d b e n d t h e
nose of the rocket over in their big vice and then crim p it to m ake it air tight. Tha t was the extent of our body construction.
For our rocket fuel, we would go to the drug sto re and buy a two pound jar of Salt Peter (Potassium Nitrate) for 50 cents and
then to the grocery store for a 5# bag of sugar. W e then would ride our bikes to the youngest m e m b e r s h o u s e o n t h e
s o u t h e a s t e r n s i d e o f t o w n a n d b l e n d a n d m elt our com position into a m ud brown solid rocket fuel. We once set the candy
rocket fuel on fire while m elting the com position on the inside stove, so our friends father bought a used stove and plum b e d
it in under his carport so we would not burn his house down making rocket fuel. Looking back on it now, it is mind boggling that
a grown man would let a bunch of 9 ye ar to 13 year old boys m a k e e x p l o s i v e s u n supervised and then put it into a potential
pipe bom b a n d s e t a m a t c h t o t h e e x p l o s i v e s ; a l l u n s u p e r v i s e d b y a n a d ult.
Our ignition system was forcing the heads of 4 strike anywhere kitchen matches into the rocket fuel and igniting them with
t h e o p e n f l a m e of another kitchen match. As you can see, our safety pro cedures were lacking and this eventually caused R. to
lose three fingers and the bulk of his right hand; one of two brothers lost an eye; and the other brother had a rocket hit him in
the gut after it peeled off the angle iron launch pad and curved back to where he was standing. He suffered m ajor burns and
i n t e r n a l d a m a g e i n c l u d i n g t h e l o s s o f h i s s p l e e n . I a m v e r y t h a n kful that I was not presen t when any of the accidents occurred.
W ithin 8 years of m y initial ex posure to flying model rockets, R ., the brother who had lost an eye when a rocket exploded on
t h e l a u n c h p a d , a n d a n o t h e r m e m ber of our aviation group were all killed in sepa rate autom obile accidents. The older brother
who had gotten hit in the stom ach by a rocket was killed in Viet Nam . Another occasional mem ber of our group was killed when
his m otorcycle went off the road at 120 M.P.H. and hit a tree. An d a n o t h e r o c c a s i o n a l m e m ber of o ur rocket flying group,
R a y m ond Michael Cla usen, went to Vie t Nam and received the Congressional Metal of Honor for carrying and leading 12
wounded Marines through a m ine field to an awaiting helicopter while being fired at by Vietcong soldiers. Mike died two years
ago from liver failure and today, 1/27/2007, a group of Viet Nam veterans will dedicate a headstone and m o n u m e n t a t h i s
grave site.
From a g r o u p o f b o y s t h a t e v e n t u a l l y n u m b e r e d 4 3 ; I a m the only one who still flies rockets. A few years ago one of our group
who becam e m y r o o m m ate in college and a m edical doctor asked m e, When are you going to grow up and stop playing with
toy rockets?
My reply to this was, NEVER

Nice story.
I've shortened the name to R. for your (presum ably living) friend, since he might not want the world to kno w.
Match February 2nd, 2007, 08:29 AM

Very touching story, sad to see so m any bright minds lost.
If you still play with rockets, what do they look like now? :)
Bert February 2nd, 2007, 11:38 AM

T h a t t a k e s m e back. I rem e m ber my father buying the early single use pre-loaded m otors back around that tim e, and showing
m e the Zinc-Sulfur rocket fuel how-to articles in popular science from when HE was younger... Sugar/nitrate was a deal safer.
Is Dr. Flash-Boom the author, or is this a re-po st?
Dr_Flash-Boom February 2nd, 2007, 05:30 PM

T h a t t a k e s m e back. I rem e m ber my father buying the early single use pre-loaded m otors back around that tim e, and showing
m e the Zinc-Sulfur rocket fuel how-to articles in popular science from when HE was younger... Sugar/nitrate was a deal safer.
Is Dr. Flash-Boom the author, or is this a re-po st?
This is not a re-post. It is a true story. My wife and I are having a dinner party tonight, so it will be tomorrow before I can po st
s o m e picture s, but I will post som e pictures of m y current rockets. The range from 16" in length to a little over 7'.
Y'all have a wonderful evening.
Bert February 2nd, 2007, 06:12 PM

Love to see your birds. You can't attach pictures to a po st in the watercooler, but you can give a lin k to photos elsewhere.
I haven't built a rocket that was intend ed to be recovered in one piece fo r quite a while no w. I've been m e a n i n g t o g e t b a c k t o
m y roots-
sbovisjb1 February 2nd, 2007, 06:28 PM

I don't m ean to be rude, crude or unsympathetic, but why would you post your real nam e and those of your com p a n i o n s ? O f
course you could be lying, but that s up to us to believe .

There ARE some here who pursue their activities legally. His nam ed "com p a n i o n " i s d e c e a s e d , a n d s o n o t l i k e l y t o b e
prosecuted...
knowledgehungry February 2nd, 2007, 09:29 PM

High powered rocketry is not illegal, there are many rules to be followed and red tape to d eal with but it can and is m ost often
done legally.
A s t o k e e p i n g n a m e s o u t o f p o s t s , I h a v e a l w a y s a s s u m e d t h a t t h e g o v e r n m e n t i s w a t c h i n g t h i s w e b s i t e , a n d I a s s u m e that
they know my name and where I live etc. I don 't really have any security measures on m y computer to stop the governm e n t
from finding me if they want too. I just assum e I don't get in an y trouble because they know that I am harm l e s s a n d t h a t I
probably don't even have anything at m y house to incrim inate m yself for anything serious. I have knowledge, som e f u s e a n d
s o m e precursors, but nothing for m a k i n g a r e a l b o m b.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Theoretical Revolutionary
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Chaosmark February 3rd, 2007, 08:39 PM

This topic thought was spawned from nbk's post here. (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?
p=87260&postcount=50)
Note: this is a purely theoretical discussion. I don't want this thread to become like these (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/
showthread.php?t=5056) two (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=5080) posts. While rather informative, both
of those were placed in the wrong place, and didn't stick to the proper way of talking about it. As Mega said:
One should keep to the theoritical, and avoid venturing into conspiracy territory. Remember, everything you say Will be used
against you. I don't want anyone to end up like RaiseTheFist.com. He got a year in the pokey for just mentioning his intent,
despite the fact he posted the same explosives crap every other kiddie kewl site had.
In starting this thread, I wish to discuss whether different strategies for a revolution might theoretically work and why, not how
to go about them in a real life application. Political science (unlike regular science) has yet to be outlawed. Besides, this form
of thought would be applicable to any country, like Cuba (though I'm thinking Castro needs to kick the bucket already...).
However, if we truly do need to completely restrict all thoughts (even theoretical ones) of revolution from the Forum to
safeguard our continued existence, so be it, wipe the thread. I'll do it myself if need be.
So, knowing that the government (whichever government that might be) is (almost?) too far gone to be recovered, how then
might someone (most certainly not law-abiding citizens like ourselves) get such a resistance together? Would something like
this (http://christianexodus.org/) work? Organize peacefully under the guise of reform, then stage a mass revolt (though I've
no doubt they fully intend to try reform first)?
I recall a cell-based approach being discussed at one point, and there are numerous (dis)advantages to such a system.
Pros:
-Secrecy (e.g. if one cell is discovered, there's only one shot at getting other cells: capturing the cell leader)
-Easier to spread out
-More secrecy (members can appear to live normal lives if need be, stockpiles can be hidden over a greater area, a greater
area of intel can be gained as part of routine activity, etc.)
Cons:
-Spread out (hard to organize activities, pass messages, etc.)
-No central location (where the revolution as a whole or part can hole up to let the storm pass)
-If one member is caught, the entire cell is (or more, if that member happens to be the cell leader)
What I'm thinking might be the best way to go about a revolution would be some combination of the cell approach and the
massive grouping approach, thus gaining the benefits of both with fewer disadvantages. I'll Google some old historical
revolutions to figure out what the different revolutions of the past used and how that helped/killed their cause.
Comments? (especially from revolutionary Cubans? *wink*)
Killian February 4th, 2007, 01:44 AM

The method you mentioned is commonly known as a covert cell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_cell)(wikipedia)
This topic thought was spawned from nbk's post here. (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?
Cons:
-Spread out (hard to organize activities, pass messages, etc.)
-No central location (where the revolution as a whole or part can hole up to let the storm pass)
-If one member is caught, the entire cell is (or more, if that member happens to be the cell leader)
The only con I recognized as being valid is (#1(Spread out)), but could easily be eliminated. #2 defeats the whole point of
compartmentalization and #3 seems to be a Pro to me; cutting your losses.
hatal February 4th, 2007, 06:14 AM

Leaderless resistance (phantom cell)
In leaderless resistance cells don't have to communicate with each-other and they don't have to have a "conventional" leader.
The leader is an ideological figure who gives instructions by the mass media just with enough detail that the cells do not
uncover themselves by their activity. Attacks provide publicity to maintain the driving force and communication of the
movement by the media. So communication is mostly one-way, starting with a general call to organize and to begin attacking
targets (like a fatwa) and later claiming credit for the attacks plus further instructions. Cells or members of different cells never
meet or gather (well maybe at an early stage for evolving a strategy, resources and information sharing and training).Cells
have 3-5 members.
Pros: Hard to uncover them. Capture of the leader does not uncover cells. High independence
Cons: Communication is a problem. Capture of the leader may not physically damage cells but the psychological effects can
be devastating. A very low level of cooperation between cells.
http://www.louisbeam.com/leaderless.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaderless_resistance
Also, some thought should be paid to a replacement system of government (if any). There is no point in overturning things if
they will just go the same way in 300 years.
For any revolution to be planned (theoretical or not), you need to understand the nature of government and of power.
As I have come to believe, power is the ability to take freedom away. As money is synonomous with freedom, or the ability to
do things, fines are just another way to gain power. There are really two ways to revolt - Either remove their ability to take
money, or remove their ability to remove freedom of person.
I'll add more later after politics tomorrow.
defiant February 4th, 2007, 08:54 AM

Alexires wrote:
There is no point in overturning things if they will just go the same way in 300years.
Thomas Jefferson gave another perspective in his "Tree of Liberty" letter:
God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The past
which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive; if they remain quiet under
such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13 states independant 11
years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before
ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from
time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to
facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time
to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure.
With regards to cells, neighborhood friends will act to protect their common good (hopefully) when a societal upheaval occurs.
That is a cell. Neighborhood groups have the advantage of being part of the scenery, blending in, and an increased likelihood
of garnishing community support. Friendships between individuals from distant groups will allow for communications
networking.
Of course if all hell were to break loose, as is the case in Iraq, any male of fighting age would probably come under the
scrutiny of the authorities.

I think that our founding fathers idea of government was the best. The problem is that people have forgotten it or ignored it.
Students are not taught that governments are dangerous nowadays when they go over United States history.
I am not really for this idea of revolution, and I think it is foolish to post this stuff here. Maybe a separate forum not run by
Roguesci would be a better place to discuss these issues. The more we mix politics and our brand of science the more likely
for this site to be closed down, and the government to come breathing down our individual necks.

Once again, my thoughts for this were much like those of how to make illegal substances: if it stays theoretical, we can't be
held to blame for what one person does (especially if they're Cubans).
defiant February 4th, 2007, 01:41 PM

This is the watercooler - we're safe here ... :D
Besides, I too am kind of partial to the founders distrust of government and the Constitution (generally).
My theoretical musings solely concern scenarios such as Iran or China invading. :D :D
Defendu February 4th, 2007, 02:23 PM

As money is synonomous with freedom,
And as sure as libertarianism causes brain rot, everyone who has posted in this thread after post #3 has injected politics into
the discussion, and thus ruined it.
So who can swing this thread back into the "theoretical"?
knowledgehungry February 4th, 2007, 03:09 PM

Thomas Jefferson was talking about rebellion, not revolution. While some people may argue this, I believe that there is a
difference, revolution is about replacing an old government with a new one. Rebellion is about fighting the government with an
attempt to keep it in line and weak, not overthrow it.
I think it would be better to put this in the context of a foreign country invading ours rather than revolting against current
government. I don't mean that as paying lip service either, I think it is not too far off where the potential to be invaded/taken
over will become a possibility.
hatal February 4th, 2007, 04:09 PM

This is the watercooler - we're safe here ... :D
Besides, I too am kind of partial to the founders distrust of government and the Constitution (generally).
My theoretical musings solely concern scenarios such as Iran or China invading. :D :D
Do you mean, someone could invade Iran or China? Who the hell could invade China :eek: ? (Maybe I misunderstood.)
ReverendFranz February 4th, 2007, 04:11 PM

He didnt state you would be going against "the founders" or even the United States after some fascist reform system, he just
asked for general theory and discussion of revolution in general: Regardless of politics or government. This is my first post on
the forum, but this subject happens to be one of personal interest.
I think maybe we should look into the writings on the subject from the Bolsheviks and the French and Spaniards and decide
what (i think alot) has changed with technology, The main thing that comes to my mind is that alot of their techniques had to
do with cutting lines of communication, is that really possible in this day and age? there would be so much more capital and a
decentralized network involved in putting down a revolution in most of the industrialized nations, and many of the non
industrialized nations that are helped out (bought out) by the industrialized nations for trade purposes. (read: CIA
"stabilization coups") I think, today, where we have umpteen percent of the total economy falling under "defence" the first
problem would be breaking up that organization, by wrecking it economically, and weakening its grip. Economic depression is
also one of the few ways to make the average citizen realize that there is a problem and wake up.
Another important step, in weakening its grip, i feel, would be turning a portion of the military and police force against the
oppressors (im assuming that if there is a revolution, they are considered oppressors.) In fact, i cant think of a single
successful revolution that didnt use the enemies army against it, and Military Coups have always been more successful than
longterm guerrilla wars, regardless of cell divisions having a central leadership or not. Lets face it, the point of any revolution
is to win, and create change, not hide in empty warehouses and mud huts for 10-15 years while they pick off the soldiers of
"The Man" one by one. I beleive there was a "Bloodless Revolution" in an eastern block country recently, where they
organized, walked up to the capital, told the guards to step out of their way, and took over the government. That is your Ideal
Model, i would think, but it does require knowing that the guards will step out of your way, or its possible every one of those
marching would have been killed on the spot. There used to be a Law Enforcement Newsletter out of texas i think, that was
primarily intended to convince National Guardsmen and Police officers not to march against citizens when (if?) they were
ordered to. I think that would be a very effective technique, to start years and years before any revolution, and probably the
activity to start with. Ill try and look it up if anyone is interested.
You need probably 20% of the people in a given area to support the revolution, studies seem to show that one third of people
will do nothing in a revolution, to keep things the same, or to create change, they just dont care, and want their life to be
normal again. Another one third of people will actively resist change, regardless of what the reasons for it are, but the majority
of those people would not be willing to die to keep things from changing, i dont think. I think 20% support, even lip service
support, even if most of those are non-combatant, would allow for free enough movement in a given area, without ever letting
a police force adequately penetrate any system of command or organization. Simply put, they cant arrest all of us.
Interestingly enough, i think the number of people in the United States who considered themselves "Revolutionaries" in a
1960 something large scale news survey was well over one million. That isnt 20%, but even that number resulted in a scaling
back of the oppression of revolutionary groups by the FBI, again, just on the basis of numbers, you cant jail them all. Make
sure you have friends.
So, those are my three thoughts:
1. The beast has a soft Underbelly made of dollars. Without any real loyalty, the government rules by paychecks.
2. The armies of the people and the armies of the government are both made of people, and should be encouraged to join
the revolt together.
3. If enough people are on your side, effective oppression is logistically impossible.
As far as politics go, you should probably forget that until the hard part is done. Rhetoric is your friend, you will have a much
harder time convincing people to line up to fight for "Social Decentralized Representative Democracy" or whatever nonsense is
new this week than you will getting them to fight for "Freedom, Liberty, and The Greater Good."

To take a U-turn back to the original topic of this thread and also providing something about a few things mentioned, here is
an essay on Modern Militia.
Not bad (regarding the subject) :) ...
http://www.afn.org/~govern/Modern.html
ReverendFranz February 4th, 2007, 04:27 PM

Oh, and just to make things very clear about how the US government feels about the subject, to anyone who isnt aware, The
Alien Registration Act, also called the Smith Act, was passed in 1940, and very much remains on the books, this particular
piece made it illegal to:
"...knowingly or willfully advocate, abet, advise or teach the duty, necessity, desirability or propriety of overthrowing the
Government of the United States or of any State by force or violence, or for anyone to organize any association which teaches,
advises or encourages such an overthrow, or for anyone to become a member of or to affiliate with any such association ".
Today, as well, we have to deal with the various subtexts of the PATRIOT ACT, particularily the "Terrorism Enhancement"
clauses concerning aditional sentencing for any sort of crime that could be considered to be encouraging terrorism, a very
poorly defined term.
That being said, as i wrote above, they cant arrest everyone, if everyone speaks with one voice.
Killian February 4th, 2007, 08:54 PM

For any revolution to be planned (theoretical or not), you need to understand the nature of government and of power.
I was thinking about this when I first read the thread and was surprised it wasn't mentioned thus far. A revolution consist of
government, economic and social change. A deconstruction and a reconstruction. How come all of the attention is paid towards
the revolt?
Let's get back to the original topic, shall we?
(Revolution(Social)): Change of values, attitudes, and expectations. do we all agree?
How chould that be orchestrated? Especially with a potential sheepish culture with no values or expectations?
cyclosarin February 5th, 2007, 12:03 AM

In a western, sheepish culture where the majority don't seem to care what the government does I can't see how it would be
possible to motivate an overwhelming number to try and do anything to change it.
I was thinking that in theory it would be easier to motivate them from a position of massive power after the government has
been removed, i.e. stage a revolution similar to a coup d'tat and decapitate the present leadership replacing it with a
benevolent dictatorship from which you can turn the country into what you want it to be.
Obviously the first step would be to convince the public that there's nothing to worry about and that their precious way of life
will be preserved for the time being before convincing them that the new government is the best thing for them.
I'm no expert on coup d'tats but I was thinking that the easiest way would be to only remove the very top of the leadership
and keeping the existing government intact for the time being so that the military etc. would take it's place within your power.
Depending on your influence over the military I was thinking that the police could be used for a sudden overthrow.
Defendu February 5th, 2007, 01:51 AM

In a western, sheepish culture where the majority don't seem to care what the government does I can't see how it would be
possible to motivate an overwhelming number to try and do anything to change it.
I believe you could get a pretty good revolt going in a degenerate society once the "bread and circus masses" are the ones
starving or being killed by government thugs.
To use one example, the real reason a revolution can't take place in a society like present day America is economic
prosperity. After all, why would present day consumers/McChildren revolt against supposedly unjust taxes, machine gun bans,
or a few people getting killed in some far off place when they can live a safe, comfortable life in front of the TV, even as
unskilled laborers?
True revolutions don't happen because of some half-baked intellectual's high ideas of "freedom", "democracy" and "equality"
amongst people who live on Easy Street, revolutions occur when the people feel real oppression every waking day of their
lives. Otherwise it's just those "other people" getting kicked around by the government, and not something that concerns
them.
Successful revolutionaries don't try to create a rebellion over taxes among the richest people in the world, or over a perceived
injustice done to a few obscure individuals. They wait for their time to come, when the masses themselves feel the need for
revolution.

Dude, why reinvent the wheel? There's a lot of fantastic strategic theory on asymmetric conflict being written these days. Free
.pdfs are everywhere, and there's no excuse not to read them. In my opinion, this thread would be vastly improved if
somebody picked a worthwhile book, everyone read it, and you took the discussion from there.
I'm out of here, but I highly recommend the works of John Parachini, and googling "asymmetric conflict" + RAND will net you
quite a bit to work with.

Dude, why reinvent the wheel?
I don't want to reinvent, just sum up the advantages of certain approaches to the subject (with a little help).
I found some source by simply looking for "revolution theory". The search gave some good results on that topic.
This is more a historical overview on revolutionary ideas and their practical implementation.A small percentage of the links
lead to research sites and others are more philosophic than one can bear, but worth browsing and reading though.
http://www.trinity.wa.edu.au/plduffyrc/subjects/sose/history/revolution.htm

In my opinion, this thread would be vastly improved if somebody picked a worthwhile book, everyone read it, and you took the
discussion from there.
That would indeed be a better approach to the thread(most threads, for that matter) Why not be the one to supply the book,
via torrent or pdf for the forum?
mrtnira February 10th, 2007, 12:10 PM
May I suggest these readings:
1. The Urban Guerrilla, by Martin Oppenheimer

2. The Soviet Partisan Movement 1941-1944, by Edgar M. Howell (Government Print office)
3. Human Factors Considerations of Undergrounds in Insurgencies, Department of the Army Pamphlet 550-104. (Don't let
"pamphlet" fool you, it's a full 291 pages.)
4. Riots, Revolts and Insurrections, by Raymond M. Momboisse
If you actually obtain and read these documents, it should give you some valuable insight into undergrounds, insurgencies,
rebellions, and revolutions. These are well disciplined studies of different movement types and were done to educate college
students, and intelligence, military, and law enforcement personnel.
Now, if you think reading these classics will give the ability to wage your own internal war.... You will be most disappointed.
And, I would suggest you surrender such ideas before they begin. Violence is no friend, and chaos works evil.
Instead, if you have an honest interest in studying military history and military science, or police science, and want to
understand human patterns, then those four titles will give you the strong foundation you may be looking for.
The patterns of human history remain with us. History is no crystal ball for fortune telling, but good history certainly is valuable
in understanding our world today. For example, in The Soviet Partisan Movement, pages 211-213 are about "lessons learned".
The lesson list is exactly what we have seen again in the past four years in Iraq, as I watch the news and read the papers.
To the people of our age, caught in the moment, a book written 45 years ago about a sub-element of a war fought 60+ years
ago has no relevance. But, the contents of the writings show the continuing patterns of human beings, which we see again, and
again in history and today. Good history gives interested people the power to be more perceptive in interpreting the current.
So, I recommend these four books to you.
shooter3 February 12th, 2007, 12:17 AM

"...knowingly or willfully advocate, abet, advise or teach the duty, necessity, desirability or propriety of overthrowing the
Government of the United States or of any State by force or violence, or for anyone to organize any association which teaches,
advises or encourages such an overthrow, or for anyone to become a member of or to affiliate with any such association ".
I wonder if this includes those who get elected, lie about defending the Constitution, then destroy our wonderful
government(Constitution) from within. Overthrown from within is has the same result as the hun crossing the border.
2 years ago the Supreme court overthrew our Constitution when the approved a liberal version of "eminant domain". A
communist Senator from New York acually said (paraphrased) "I would use the oil company profits to fund bla, bla...".
Who the hell said she could?
I would say that a Revolution has already taken place and we're the loosers.
It will be real difficult to get our nation back, as we don't have the moral direction that we had just a few decades ago.
Physiclly speaking, our military already figured it out. There was a pamphlet called "the contra manual". In it, it said that "The
only ones who can steal your freedom are Judges and the Legislature". Well which ones are voting to steal your rights? There
is your target list.
I must add that if even one inocent party is killed, you have lost the war.
What if the Mugabi's of this world kept getting shot in the head. Who would want to be "president for life" if that life wasn't
very long?
In the western world, such actions would probably be counter productive, as not many people have a clue how a Constitutional
Republic works and why it is the best system. Some "new" ideas on government would take hold and we would be in a bigger
mess than we are now!
I'm afraid you guys in europe are in very big trouble. Your next system will be Islamic. Europe has lost all it's direction and is
so politically correct that she is incapable of doing what it will take to stop it.
nbk2000 February 12th, 2007, 02:46 AM

Government is a shared myth. When belief in the myth is gone, so is the government.
LibertyOrDeath February 12th, 2007, 06:47 PM

The following is meant to be academic and hypothetical and is not meant to incite anyone to commit any illegal acts:
I think the key to asymmetric warfare against a larger foe with far more resources (weapons, communications, surveillance
equipment, etc.) is twofold: (1) sniping and (2) assassination of the system's thugs.
Sniping obviously involves shooting one or two of the bastards from beyond the effective range of the latter's weapons
(preferably beyond 400 yards) with a suitably accurate rifle (1 MOA or better), then slipping away. The caliber should be
powerful enough to do harm even if it hits Class IV body armor. Good calibers for this are .300 Winchester Magnum, 7mm
Remington Magnum, and even .50 BMG if mobility isn't paramount (e.g., one is shooting from a vehicle). Solid brass bullets
are better than lead core, and the insertion of tungsten carbide penetrator rods into the bullets would be even better (although
making armor piercing bullets properly is more complicated than it might seem at first). Be aware that equipment is being
developed that can detect from where a shot originated.
I highly recommend the book The Ultimate Sniper by Major John Plaster. It contains some BS, neoconnish commentary, but
the information on sniping is outstanding. Also, take the time to practice long-range marksmanship.
As far as assassination, that pretty much speaks for itself. Jack-booted thugs are very brave when it's ten of them busting into
a lone person's house at 4 AM; but catch them alone and off-guard in their nightclothes or when they're picking up the
morning paper and see if they still think they're such bad-asses.
If it looks like you'll be caught, fight to the death. You're eventually going to die one day anyway (possibly from a miserable
disease), and you'd be better off dead than taken alive to be beaten, starved, and "water boarded" for the rest of your life. As
long as you kill more of them than they kill of you, you win.
I'm glad there are those here who still think about these things. I've been banned from other boards (gun boards) for
mentioning this subject. You'd think people who claim to support the Second Amendment and the fundamental right of all
people to armed defense against tyranny would at least have the courage to talk about such things. But alas, most people are
cowards who gladly trade freedom and dignity for safety.

The problem with most gun boards is that they have forgotten that the purpose behind the 2nd Amendment wasn't to protect
the hunters right to kill Bambi, but to ensure that The People have the means to overthrow FedGov if it ever got out of control.
But they (other boards) don't want people to discuss such things because they're scared sheeple who piss on themselves at
the thought of FedGov shutting down their board for discussing such 'terr-or-ist plots' as personal freedom and a weak FedGov.
The book Unintended Consequences, I think, gave a very good example of how such a revolution could get started. Not the
cause, but the way that, by leading by example, others would pick up the banner and follow on their own.
Such decentralized action is impossible to stop if it gets enough people doing it.
Look at Iraq.
A dedicated group of resisters, all long since killed I'm sure, showed the masses that the invader wasn't ALL POWERFUL, but
vulnerable, and that by nipping at it's heels, rather than standing up to it and trying to slug it out with it, that the invader could
be hurt. Maybe not enough to force it out right away, but enough to make it bleed and weaken. Make it lose enough blood
and it'll retreat to lick its wounds. :)
The local police are considered lackeys of a foreign power. What do they do? They kidnap them and execute them in the
street in broad-daylight as examples of what awaits lackeys of the invaders.
If the invader is your own government gone out of control, such examples will work to deter future lackeys from joining the
pork patrol, and deter the current crop of pork from being so enthusiastic about their late-night social calls. ;)
chemdude1999 February 13th, 2007, 07:13 PM

The caliber should be powerful enough to do harm even if it hits Class IV body armor. Good calibers for this are .300
Winchester Magnum, 7mm Remington Magnum, and even .50 BMG if mobility isn't paramount (e.g., one is shooting from a
vehicle).
I would recommend the .338 Lapua Magnum. Check out Armalite's AR-30. The version in the .338 Lapua is right around
$1600-$1700 and it shoots damn near 1/3 MOA and holds it to over 1000 yards given the superior ballistics. The only caveat
is that ammo is expensive and Black Hills is the only stuff worthy of shooting through it. So reloading is almost a must.
I like the .300 Win, but it tends to burn barrels faster than the .338. The 7mm Mag is an excellent choice especially if the
shooter is already a hunter. As for the big 50, again I have to recommend the AR-50 for budget-conscious folks. The M-82 is
great but at $7000 it's out of my league. I'm not an Armalite employee. I'm just impressed with the way they make the large
calibers affordable without sacrificing quality. I own a DSA SA-58 .308 battle rifle and love it. I can hit man size targets with
ease out to 500 yards with iron sights. I could talk all day on this subject.
AS for the original topic: Americans are a different breed. The founding stock came to the present-day USA to avoid taxation
and oppression. They fought a nasty war for it and most of them died. If they didn't die during battle, they were murdered in
their sleep afterwards.
There are, by some estimates about 250 million guns in the hands of 75 million gun owners in the states. I think the FedGov
would be served well to remember that. We don't need Bradleys and M-1's to do the deed. A select team of self-taught or
semi-professionally trained citizens could take a convoy and go from there. I worry about air strikes though. However, if it ever
gets that bad, I won't give a fuck whether I die, because it won't be with any regrets.
LibertyOrDeath February 15th, 2007, 02:39 AM

The problem with most gun boards is that they have forgotten that the purpose behind the 2nd Amendment wasn't to protect
the hunters right to kill Bambi, but to ensure that The People have the means to overthrow FedGov if it ever got out of control.
But they (other boards) don't want people to discuss such things because they're scared sheeple who piss on themselves at
the thought of FedGov shutting down their board for discussing such 'terr-or-ist plots' as personal freedom and a weak
FedGov.Exactly. I've become more than disgusted with the cowardice of the majority of my fellow gun owners. They like to toss
out slogans like "Molon Labe" and "from my cold, dead hands," but then they refuse to even whisper about actual methods for
preparing for such things.
No, the Second Amendment isn't about hunting or target shooting. It doesn't give you the right to have fancy range toys. It's
about killing pigs and military personnel who step over the line. And anyone who has never had the courage to disobey laws in
the past (even in secret!) will NOT have the courage to do so in the future. Some people -- probably most -- are born slaves.
Once a coward, always a coward.
Such decentralized action is impossible to stop if it gets enough people doing it.
Look at Iraq.
A dedicated group of resisters, all long since killed I'm sure, showed the masses that the invader wasn't ALL POWERFUL, but
vulnerable, and that by nipping at it's heels, rather than standing up to it and trying to slug it out with it, that the invader could
be hurt. Maybe not enough to force it out right away, but enough to make it bleed and weaken. Make it lose enough blood
and it'll retreat to lick its wounds. :)Indeed, Iraq is a good example. In fact, if there were ever an uprising in the US against
tyranny, it would have certain advantages over the Iraqi insurgency. For example, the government thugs and their families live
in cities and neighborhoods among the rest of us, so it's not like heavy air bombardment could be used by the government
without risking casualties to its own people. There'd be no front lines, no areas of safe retreat for most of said thugs. Get
enough Mohammed/Malvo "Beltway Sniper" types (only shooting thugs instead of random people) and see all of said thugs
disappear, just like they vanished during the LA Riots.
It wouldn't take a majority of Americans to pull it off -- one percent of gun owners would be plenty.
Once again, for the record, I'm not advocating any of this; the above is all hypothetical. I'd prefer to see a peaceful solution
to the problem of America's increasing tyranny. But I'll be damned if I'll ever be anyone's slave or obey any laws that serve no
purpose other than to give other men unlimited power over me. And any pigs reading this can kiss my ass. :D
I would recommend the .338 Lapua Magnum. Check out Armalite's AR-30. The version in the .338 Lapua is right around
$1600-$1700 and it shoots damn near 1/3 MOA and holds it to over 1000 yards given the superior ballistics. The only caveat
is that ammo is expensive and Black Hills is the only stuff worthy of shooting through it. So reloading is almost a must.You
know, I was just researching that one right before I came back to this board and posted my above response to NBK! It sounds
like a fantastic rifle, and I've got a major hard-on for one. I've read only good things about it on other boards, with some
people saying it's easily worth twice the price. A .338 Lapua Mag that only weighs 12 lbs, is 48" long, and has easily
manageable recoil -- amazing! That sounds like the perfect sniper rifle. And the power...with the right bullets (maybe Barnes
solids), it might even be able to penetrate lightly armored vehicles.
I like the .300 Win, but it tends to burn barrels faster than the .338.That's very good to know -- thanks for posting that info.
You wouldn't happen to have an estimate for barrel life for the .338LM, would you?
In any case, that will probably be my next rifle. I'm just getting into reloading (in large part because I want to experiment with
bullet modification!), so that will help keep the costs of shooting that monster down.
chemdude1999 February 15th, 2007, 07:59 AM

You wouldn't happen to have an estimate for barrel life for the .338LM, would you?
I've read some boards that complain about barrel life on both calibers. But I remember reading (maybe Boston's Gun Bible)
that the .300 Win Mag can burn out at around 1000 rds. or less. The .338 Lapua something like 2000-3000. There are heated
discussions on this.
It has a lot to do with the types of rounds shot. Barnes solids would be great for penetration, but might be a little rough on the
rifling. And to be honest the .300 win mag is a step below the .338 lapua in terms of distance and size. Apples and Oranges I
guess. Get both? Right.
At any rate, unless you're doing competition, it'll take a long while to shoot that many rounds with either rifle. Get it broke-in
and sighted-in and then take it out occasionally. Use a scoped .308 to keep the skills honed. With the muzzle break the .338
has about the same recoil as a M14/M1A.
If you ever do have to change out a barrel, the nice thing about the AR-30 is that it uses a V-block bedding. You can take the
action off, throw it in a vise, get the barrel replaced and then put it back without worrying about the bedding throwing off the
sights. Just run 10-20 rds through it to check the new barrel for variation. The 50 is the same. I wish more rifle makers would
do this and get away from the Remington 700 action. It is a great action but the bedding requires careful fitting. Maybe
Remington could redo that aspect. Doubtful.
Regardless of barrel life, the .338 has superior ballistics. Nice to know when you might be counter-sniping a .300-equipped
sniper. The only rifle that I know that has longer range at a flatter trajectory (besides wildcats) is the .408 Cheytac. But those
jerks "dumb" down the civilian version so it shoots less accurately. That really pisses me off. But I suppose their precious LEO
clientele requires the edge to make up for their lack of skills and commitment. Somebody should take their cartridge and
make an even better rifle.
Hirudinea February 15th, 2007, 08:05 PM

I think the key to asymmetric warfare against a larger foe with far more resources (weapons, communications, surveillance
equipment, etc.) is twofold: (1) sniping and (2) assassination of the system's thugs.
Actually the key to asymmetric warfare against a larger foe is onefold, you, the weaker simply have to make is to painful/
inconvienent for your enemy to keep fighting you like America in Vietnam, Russia in Afghanistan or a dog attacking a skunk
all the larger combatants had the power to subdue the smaller opponents, IF they had had the will to push home their attack,
but the pain of continuing the attack was to much for them to stand, Vietnam brought civil strife to American streets,
Afghanistan helped bring down communism in Russia and well the skunk made the dog all stinky. :) So if you want to conduct
a sucessful aysmmetric war you must 1.) Figure what will hurt your enemy most, 2.) Figure out how you can inflict that harm,
with what you have at hand most easily, most damage to your enemy with least risk to you, and 3.) Commence the attack
until the enemy reaches its pain threshold and retreats, whatever toll that takes on you. And remember, even a skunk gets
eaten every now and then ;)

May I suggest these readings:
1. -----------------------------------------
2. The Soviet Partisan Movement 1941-1944, by Edgar M. Howell (Government Print office)
3. Human Factors Considerations of Undergrounds in Insurgencies, Department of the Army Pamphlet 550-104. (Don't let
"pamphlet" fool you, it's a full 291 pages.)
4. -----------------------------------------
http://rapidshare.com/files/16664230/Human_Factors_Considerations_of_Undergrounds_in_In
surgencies_Department_of_the_Army_Pamphlet_550-104.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/16664551/The_Soviet_Partisan_Movement_1941-1944.pdf
Both files are Pdfs

Such exotic weapons as .338 Lapula's would be probably be difficult to keep feed in an extended war, since reloading supplies
and equipment would be amoung the first things to be banned.
It's better to use weapons that use the enemies ammo. ;)
Such exotics would be best used against very high-value targets, who can be expected to be surrounded by bullet-resistant
glass in the middle of a security cordon with counter-snipers at the ready.
For use against common drones, using the cheapest ammo and a disposable rifle, along with a disposable drone of your own,
would be the best.
If the disposable drone lasts long enough, and racks up enough kills, he might be worthy of an upgrade. :)
And there's no need to wait until you can afford one. The revolutionaries of the 60's and 70's would rob gunstores and National
Guard armories and take their shit. If a person (or persons) was serious about revolution and didn't want the hassle of robbing
banks to buy the guns, they would steal the guns themselves.
Using the example of the jihadhi's, sniping would be a low priority compared to IED ambushes, which allow your limited forces
to continue attacking over and over again.
And it's true the that Vietnam and Afghanistan 'won' their wars, but Vietnam lost several million to our 50K and is a toxic
wasteland of Dioxin mutated offspring. Afghanistan had what little civilization they had annihilated and left to deal with millions
of landmines.
So, yes, third world shitholes can 'win' against superpowers, but its a pyrrhic victory.
If a nuclear superpower tears itself apart in a spectacularly messy fashion, what will happen to it's neighbors during its death
throes? You'd have to assume some nukes, and the means of delivering them, will fall into the hands of all sides.
What would nuclear armed mexicans, niggers, and Nazis target, besides each other?
Nazis>Israel+China, Niggers>Europe, Mexicans>Europe

I've read some boards that complain about barrel life on both calibers. But I remember reading (maybe Boston's Gun Bible)
that the .300 Win Mag can burn out at around 1000 rds. or less. The .338 Lapua something like 2000-3000. There are heated
discussions on this.Thanks for that info. Yeah, I'm sure it depends a great deal on rate of fire as well as on the specific load
used. But that's still reasonable barrel life, as I would be practicing with something smaller and cheaper most of the time, as
you suggested later in your post.
It has a lot to do with the types of rounds shot. Barnes solids would be great for penetration, but might be a little rough on the
rifling.I'm not sure if Barnes or other solids are harder on rifling than ordinary jackets, but I wouldn't be too surprised if they
were. I'd probably practice with ordinary lead core jacketed bullets (when not practicing with the .308 or other smaller round)
and save the good stuff for that rainy day -- after having established that my practice load was ballistically similar enough to
the high-penetration load, that is.
And to be honest the .300 win mag is a step below the .338 lapua in terms of distance and size. Apples and Oranges I guess.
Get both? Right.One nice thing about the .300WM is that it's been adopted by some military snipers, so there's a lot of good
ballistics info out there -- wind drift charts, etc. And there are affordable rifles in that caliber that often shoot sub-MOA right
from the factory (the Savage 110FP is only $621 MSRP and gets great reviews).
Still, I think I'm going to go with the AR-30 in .338 Lapua first. I want that tremendous penetration capability in my possession
ASAP.
At any rate, unless you're doing competition, it'll take a long while to shoot that many rounds with either rifle. Get it broke-in
and sighted-in and then take it out occasionally. Use a scoped .308 to keep the skills honed. With the muzzle break the .338
has about the same recoil as a M14/M1A.Yup, that's a good plan, and that's exactly what I'm gonna do.
If you ever do have to change out a barrel, the nice thing about the AR-30 is that it uses a V-block bedding. You can take the
action off, throw it in a vise, get the barrel replaced and then put it back without worrying about the bedding throwing off the
sights. Just run 10-20 rds through it to check the new barrel for variation. The 50 is the same. I wish more rifle makers would
do this and get away from the Remington 700 action. It is a great action but the bedding requires careful fitting. Maybe
Remington could redo that aspect. Doubtful.I wasn't aware of this -- thanks again for the excellent info.
Regardless of barrel life, the .338 has superior ballistics. Nice to know when you might be counter-sniping a .300-equipped
sniper.Definitely. And at 600 yards, where a torso shot is much easier than a headshot, the .338 is more likely to get through
a steel or ceramic rifle plate that might stop even the .300.
The only rifle that I know that has longer range at a flatter trajectory (besides wildcats) is the .408 Cheytac. But those jerks
"dumb" down the civilian version so it shoots less accurately. That really pisses me off.Are you serious?! God, I hate it when
companies go out of their way to provide better equipment to the pigs than to us "peons" even when the law doesn't require it.
Assholes! They can rot in hell! :mad:
As an aside, Ronnie Barrett deserves a lot of credit for refusing to sell rifles to CA pig agencies or even service the ones they
already have because of CA's .50 BMG ban. And that new caliber Barrett is introducing, the .416 Barrett, might even be
superior. I wish more gun companies had Barrett's balls.
and equipment would be amoung the first things to be banned.This is very true, and that's why I think it's really important for
any rifleman who might one day "stand up and be counted" to have a good stockpile of either factory ammo or reloading
components.
It's better to use weapons that use the enemies ammo. ;)Well...I'd have to differ with you somewhat on that. While there are
advantages to having a weapon that shoots the enemy's ammo, if you can capture his ammo, you can always simply take one
of his weapons if you need it, too. But even more important IMO is that if you're outnumbered in the first place and (at least
initially) lack the firepower of your enemy (e.g., belt-fed weapons), it's important to stay out of the effective range of his
weapons as much as possible. Otherwise you can end up getting surrounded by their "suppress and maneuver" techniques.
Better to pick off one or two of the enemy from a well-hidden position a long distance away, then escape to fight again
another day while they radio and wait for reinforcements.
The other thing I worry a lot about these days is new body armor that will be able to stop any assault rifle round. They may
soon be able to even make lightweight full-body armor suits that can stop 5.56 or 7.62 NATO without much blunt trauma --
shear-thickening liquids (which harden suddenly when hit by a projectile) have already shown some promise for doing this, and
if carbon nanotubes ever get off the ground...well, you get the idea. I really, really think that we who have the balls and brains
to resist the JBTs if it ever comes down to it (e.g., people on this board) should at least be equipped with one massive-caliber
rifle, a good supply of ammo, and solid marksmanship skill -- just in case individual JBTs become too well protected for our
AKs, ARs, FALs, and M14s.
Such exotics would be best used against very high-value targets, who can be expected to be surrounded by bullet-resistant
glass in the middle of a security cordon with counter-snipers at the ready.
For use against common drones, using the cheapest ammo and a disposable rifle, along with a disposable drone of your own,
would be the best.If body armor doesn't end up advancing too much, then I'll agree that rounds like the .338 Lapua shouldn't
be wasted. I'm just worried about what future developments in that area will bring. If it turns out that when the SHTF a .308 will
do the job nearly all of the time, then that's what should be used -- especially since a .308 battle rifle like a FAL gives you
rapid fire capability just in case you need it. But if the jackboots all end up wearing something like Dragon Skin from head to
toe, we'll have to keep our distance and use stuff like the .338 almost exclusively. (Of course, locating and busting into the
JBTs' houses for the occasional payback raid can be done with much smaller weapons.)
to continue attacking over and over again.There's no doubt that IEDs are at least as valuable as sniping, especially when
you're contending against armored vehicles. And I hope that's where the chemists on this board (alas, I'm a physics/materials
person who's just getting into the chemistry of explosives) will really shine. But I think any future civil war in this country will
probably be a lower-intensity conflict than Iraq -- mostly fought with small arms to avoid friendly casualties and damage to
infrastructure that the gov't depends on. In particular, the government isn't going to be able to bomb entire neighborhoods
when there are government employees living in those neighborhoods among the rest of the citizenry.
And it's true the that Vietnam and Afghanistan 'won' their wars, but Vietnam lost several million to our 50K and is a toxic
wasteland of Dioxin mutated offspring. Afghanistan had what little civilization they had annihilated and left to deal with millions
of landmines.Right, but what .gov is willing to do to other countries, it can't do to the US. After all, they have to live here too.
:) Asymmetric warfare on US soil would be a lot more "symmetric" than a guerrilla war on foreign soil.

Martha's vineyard and Kennebunkport are as much a part of America as Tel-Aviv is a part of palestine.
Since Jews, and their goyim servants, are disproportionally present in our government, let us see how they do things in israel
for a glimpse into the future.
Today they are called Gated Communities. Tomorrow, they'll be called a Kibitz, and that's where all the state drones will live.
Today there is a park around the gated community. Tomorrow there will be a security exclusion zone, complete with minefields
and razor tape.
Today you have a Social Slave number and passport. Tomorrow you'll have a Social Slave RFID implant as your internal
movement passport because nobody get a passport to anywhere outside the country unless they're part of the apparatchik.
Today your children go to school. Tomorrow they'll go to State Indoctrination Facilities.
Today there's nothing in the deserts but borax mines and salt flats. Tomorrow there will be Soylent Green factories where
terrorists will be 'rendered'. ;)
Today you believe you are free. Tomorrow you'll know you are a slave.
There will be carpet bombing of cities, if not just outright nuking. There will be terrible new weapons used against disarmed
civilian populations.
Why?
Because the only thing keeping Them from doing it now is that the masses are still placated by the idiot box circus and welfare
bread.
Once the velvet glove ceases to tame, the iron fist will be revealed.

and equipment would be amoung the first things to be banned.
It's better to use weapons that use the enemies ammo. ;)
to continue attacking over and over again.
What would nuclear armed mexicans, niggers, and Nazis target, besides each other?
Nazis>Israel+China, Niggers>Europe, Mexicans>Europe
I agree about ammo issue...if you look up well USSR army had similar reasoning for posible conventional conflict with NATO
(that was dumed to go the way of nuke clouds). USSR used mortars in 82mm caliber only because USA made it in 81mm
caliber - you can guess yes it is posible to fire 81mm shell out of 82mm mortar while other way around isn't posible, they did
similar thing with guns when they went converting it from 7,62mm to NATO-ish like caliber they made 5,45mm ammo&gun
(instead of 5,56mm) so that enemy can't use their ammo&guns in any posible combination if they capture it. I guess they
reasoning was that capturing of infantry weapons was very much likely in war so they wanted to make sure that it isn't of much
use to the enemy (since appropriate ammo will dry very quickly).
IED or landmines or any explosive device is a poor man cruise missile - only the target is cruising instead (on second thought
more like CAPTOR torpedo I guess).
If Japan goes again the way of nazi they would hit China other way I doubt the Germany or Italy or any of other countries that
had Nazies would go half a way around globe to hit them. Even Israel is doubtfull for the Nazies since they are rather far away
but I guess they would hit it anyway just for revenge. African Niggers would have the motivation to hit former masters in
Europe, but you forgot to mention that lazy asses want to steal from those who had the most assets and since they had
"landing party" in USA ghetto's that shouldn't be left out as option. As for Mexicans you missed completely it was, it is, and it
will always be only one target - USA. They slowly outnumbered white population in south of USA so you now have:
1. protests of illegal immigrants against walls on the south border (I wonder why?) while they carry Mexican flags on squares of
USA cities.
2. One of the larger chains of pizza-restaurants on south put out the table "we accept the Mexican peso"
I could go on numbering more things but this two should make some people thinking.

If today you believe that you are free, you will most likely believe it even tomorrow.
shooter3 February 16th, 2007, 08:25 PM

Did anyone else see the photos of the Iranian directional mines? A picture is worth a thousand words. You could print a copy
and measure the angle of the self forging projectile plate (very shallow), use a strong, mallable steel, fire it top dead center
(measure the length of the casing).
That will go through any type of body armour and most vehicles and limit peripheral damage.
Never forget, ONE INNOCENT victim and you've lost the war!

Martha's vineyard and Kennebunkport are as much a part of America as Tel-Aviv is a part of palestine.
Since Jews, and their goyim servants, are disproportionally present in our government, let us see how they do things in israel
for a glimpse into the future.Hey -- this board is looking even better all the time! I'm glad to see that you, too, are aware of
the Jewish/Zionist occupation of "our" government. Not many people are, though that is changing due to the way the neocon
Jews (Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, Libby, Shulsky, Abrams, etc., and their media counterparts) overplayed their hand in Iraq and
are continuing to do so with Iran. Their goal is to bleed the US dry in service to Israel by making Israel's enemies America's
enemies.
In addition to the Israeli agents who've infiltrated the US government, the Israeli lobby has an absolute stranglehold on
Congress, and presidential candidates are carefully vetted for loyalty to Israel prior to each election. That's why we never hear
anything in the mainstream media about Ron Paul, for example -- because he's pro-freedom and puts America first. Every
major presidential candidate puts Israel first.
Anyway, for the above reasons, the scenario you paint of America as the next Palestine is something I've thought about quite
a bit. I've long suspected that that's why most of the major figures in the gun control movement are Jewish: Feinstein, Boxer,
Schumer, Waxman, etc.
I certainly don't hate all Jews, but there's no doubt that many of them think of themselves as a Chosen Tribe whose job is to
parasitically gain from -- and eventually enslave -- the goyim.
Today they are called Gated Communities. Tomorrow, they'll be called a Kibitz, and that's where all the state drones will live.
Today there is a park around the gated community. Tomorrow there will be a security exclusion zone, complete with minefields
and razor tape.Fortunately, we'll see that starting to happen well in advance. They won't be able to get all the thugs living in
protective isolation overnight. It will have been time to act before then.
Today you have a Social Slave number and passport. Tomorrow you'll have a Social Slave RFID implant as your internal
movement passport because nobody get a passport to anywhere outside the country unless they're part of the apparatchik.
[snip]Well, I'll die and take a few bastards with me before accepting any such implant. I'll give them cranial implants -- of
lead!
Like I said before, I'm quite willing to die if I have to, since one day I'm going to die anyway, and it might be from something
much worse than bullets (say, being slowly burned up in a wrecked car after a crash, or maybe Alzheimer's or inoperable
cancer). Of course I want to keep living for as long as possible, but I will NOT be anyone's slave. I get the impression that you
and others here are of the same mindset -- I mean, the subject matter of this board says it all -- and that's a ray of hope.
Because the only thing keeping Them from doing it now is that the masses are still placated by the idiot box circus and welfare
bread.
Once the velvet glove ceases to tame, the iron fist will be revealed.I don't believe the government is currently strong enough
to suppress the population wholesale. Not even close, in fact. But they're working on it! New body armor, new surveillance
technologies, new weapons...yes, there IS a danger that the government could become that strong, and I worry about it.
That's exactly the reason why I've been collecting things like rifles, body armor, and gas masks for years, and it's also the
reason why I joined this board. There's hope, but it comes down to the few people who have the brains and the balls to do
something instead of watching stupid-ass shows on the telescreen.
TreverSlyFox February 22nd, 2007, 04:40 AM

Never forget, ONE INNOCENT victim and you've lost the war!
That's not really true, many innocents have been killed during revolution and the revolution succeeded. Our own American
revolution being one of them, you can't bombard a city with cannon fire and just hit military targets and personnel, Collateral
Damage is a fact of warfare.
The biggest advantage a modern government has is it's technology, it's also it's Achilles Heel. As an example, the U.S.
government is the most technological advanced government in history. But within it's countries borders it's the most at a
disadvantage. Now why is that you ask?
Because the U.S. government's technology relies on infrastructure, mostly the electric and communications grid but you could
also toss in transportation. Two of these grids, electric and communications, are vulnerable because of their area of coverage
and the electric grid is old and barely able to cope with the current power needs.
Dealing with just the electric and communication grids a small force, spread across this country, could take both grids down and
keep them down for extremely long periods of time. The electric grid is the easiest to target as it is spread over vast distances
with much of it in remote areas but still easily accessible with nothing more than a 4 wheel drive vehicle.
The electric grid is composed of two parts, the Transmission grid which is between the power stations and where the power is
used, and the Distribution grid within the area where the power is used. The Transmission grid is the easiest to target simply
because it covers long distances between cities but no matter how remote, road access is provided by the power company to
service the towers. These are the huge, 100' tall, steel towers you see while your tooling down the freeway outside of towns.
Now some homework would have to be done, checking out several towers to find out how thick the steel is. Then developing a
time delay thermite charge that was reliable that would cut each of the tower legs. Now you just make up a bunch of charges, 4
for each tower (though 2 charges taking opposite legs may do it).
Now lets say we have 10 teams of 3 people, one to drive the vehicle and two to set charges. Each of these teams takes a
different State but start setting charges on the same Saturday night. Good night vision would be handy so your headlights
didn't give you away at 3 AM in the morning. Each team has a dozen charges so they can take down 4 to 8 towers and the
charges are set to ignite at 6 PM Sunday evening. Shouldn't take more the 2 hours for each team to set the charges, then
drive say 100 miles to another town get a room and spend the rest of the week making more charges.
Now there are between 40 and 80 Main Transmission towers laying on the ground and the cities they feed are blacked out. The
next week, only on Monday they do the same thing and on Tuesday at 6 PM another 40 to 80 Main Feed towers come down
and now at least 20 cities are without power and our teams have moved on to more cities. Those towers can't be fixed in one
week and more likely a month or more, but in that month you've taken down between 160 to 320 more towers. Now there are
at least 40 cities without power across the country and at some point, since the power grid is all tied together, the entire power
grid shuts down across the country. The time between hitting new towers is only dependent on how fast each team can make
up 12 new thermite charges, which could be only 3 or 4 days.
Today there are about 3,195 Electric Utilities in the U.S., but less than 1,000 of these Utilities actually generate electricity. The
Transmission Electric grid is composed of 160,000 miles of power lines. There are 3 separate grids in the U.S., the Eastern
Interconnect, the Western Interconnect and the Texas Interconnect. (source Department of Energy, Energy Information
Administration Report for 1996-2004).
The possibility of your teams getting caught is fairly remote since the 160,000 miles of Transmission lines are impossible to
guard. Plus the fact that at any time, the teams could switch to the Distribution grid or they could change to hitting Electric Sub-
Stations or move on to Telephone towers and Sub-Stations. All of these targets are vulnerable to the same Thermite charges.
You haven't shot anyone, the country is without power, Soccer Mom can't watch the soaps, Soccer Dad doesn't have cold beer
or NASCAR and Soccer Teenager doesn't go to the Mall because the Mall is closed. No phones, No internet which means most
big stores can't order anything and the werehouse can't deliver what isn't ordered.
Gas and Diesel can't be pumped at the local gas station and the refinery isn't running to make any more. Hospitals are
running generators to keep some equipment running, no MRI's or CAT scans, they just take too much power to run. No street
lights, no street signals to control traffic even if there was some, Rail Roads stop running, factories shut down. Cell phones
work as long as the back up generators at the towers keep running, maybe a week. The phone company is in the same boat
as long as their sub-station and towers are up. If they ever get the grid back up, you just go back to hitting the towers again.
How long could the U.S. government or any modern government stay in power in this situation? Now you know why this is the
greatest threat modern governments worry about, but haven't been able to solve. The people hate you, but then again the
people don't know who you are. Must be those nasty Muslims Terrorists and that's who they'er going to be looking at for the
first few months. :rolleyes:
nbk2000 February 22nd, 2007, 05:02 AM

If they decide to use the actions of internal seperatists as an excuse for action against external enemies, than you've gained
nothing.
The masses need to know who is doing it and, more importantly, why.

NBK,
In most cases I would agree you need the support of at least a portion of the masses (one third at least) if your looking to
overthrow the existing government and make a fairly smooth transition to a new government or more likely a reformed old
government.
What I have proposed here is a situation where you don't care if it's smooth or not. Your objective is the collapse of the
existing government and it matters not who gets hurt in the process.
In this case your using the masses against the PTB because once the power goes off and stays off, the masses will not
tolerate the sitting governments inability to control the situation and restore the grid and all that goes with it.
Your looking at a very short time period of most likely less than two years with a very small force to bring the entire country
down. Without electricity this country or any other modern country can not survive. No banking, no business, no manufacturing,
no stock market, little food production and almost no transportation within four to eight months. It's doubtful the sitting
government could hold on for another four to eight months beyond that.
Plus it takes down quite a bit of the rest of the worlds governments with it, the way our economies are so tied together
throughout the world. Which could be seen as a plus because that could very well keep other countries off your back while your
trying to put things back together once it falls.
The part about Muslim Terrorists is strictly that's who they would first suspect rather than internal forces, which for awhile
means they're not looking at you. It's also possible they may never find out who did it if they don't find out before the whole
thing falls. Once it falls no one is looking anymore and if your picking up the pieces you could probably keep it that way.
It is definitely a hard assed approach because a large number of the masses are going to die before it's all over, along with
who knows how many around the world. There are probably a lot of "ifs" that would need to be covered and Murphy always
rears his head, but I think it could be done.
I think causing the collapse is the easy part, the picking up the pieces after would be the hard part.
shooter3 February 24th, 2007, 01:05 AM

One shot, one kill. You fade away. No innocent victim. Knock the power grid out, say during the Super Bowl, and you've
alianated all the bubba's out there. They're the guys I want on my side.
Explosives are a bad weapon in this kind of war. You would piss off all the people that would potentially be on your side.
Moral people distain the "to whom it may concern" type of attack.
What if Mcvey had blown up a swat truck full of the agents that murdered all those people in Waco. Do you think anyone would
have given a shit? They would have said "so what, good ridence", and the Feds would have been a little more reluctant to do
something as stupid as that again. Instead, he murdered a whole lot of innocents. The dumb shit set back liberty far more
than the patriot act did.
You don't want to mess with our Military. They're our brothers, friends and cousins, the fight is not with them and practicly
speaking, they'd kick our ass.
Our bitch is with the "Tyrants". Tyrants should be the ones who pay with their life.
One shot, one kill, get away, no innocents!

The reason they are Bubba's in the first place is because they're slaves to the Indoctrination Box (TV) and want nothing more
than the shiniest life-size HotWheels truck and their beer.
More fuel for the ovens, IMO.
It's good strategy to show how ineffective the government is to protect its infrastructure, the infrastructure that the Sheeple
have come to depend on.
With no power, they'd start dying and killing each other in a month. The ghetto's within days.
Like the Charles Manson quote someone has as a signature here, half would go immediately crazy, the other half would sit
waiting for it to come back on.
defiant March 8th, 2007, 11:08 PM

Shooter3:
You don't want to mess with our Military. They're our brothers, friends and cousins, the fight is not with them and practicly
speaking, they'd kick our ass.
They are out brothers, friends, and cousins - and the fight is not with them. But I told a US soldier getting ready to deploy for
a 3rd tour in Iraq that I'd rather see the troops redeployed in the US to fight the enemy within. He knew exactly what I was
saying and we parted friends.
Nor would they kick "our" ass any more than they've domesticated Iraq. Its exceedingly difficult for a standing army to
dominate an armed population that fights back. The corporate media simply isn't telling that most of Iraq is not secure (i.e.
the red zone) - thus the profits keep rolling into the military industrial complex.
With regards to other comments:
People wouldn't truly care if explosives or incindiaries are used against inanimate objects or parties that are obviously guilty
(i.e. most of our democrat and republican representatives and affiliates). But they wouldn't understand why the power grid was
knocked out or why they couldn't watch TV unless it was explained to them.
Demonstrating the ineptness of government to protect the status quo is one thing - but in order to garnish popular support
some sort of message about a better altenative has to be disseminated.
Destroying power grids would certainly knock out surveillance measures to some extent, but its doubtful that in and of itseld it
would topple a government. The gov. would spin it to their advantage.
In any case, I'm not entirely convinced that we the sheeple don't have exactly the government we deserve.
nbk2000 March 9th, 2007, 12:28 AM

Every empire falls.
Whether from external enemies conquering them, or internal enemies destroying it from within, our empire too will fall.
Years or decades, who's to know, but it will happen.
The more things are in turmoil, the greater the acceleration of the end. Chaos brings change. :)
It's hard to believe the news about how the government has things under control when you're listening to it on a battery
powered radio by candlelight because the power has been off for the last week. :p

True, every empire is eventually conquered or rots from within.
But what concerns me more than empire (economic and/or military might) is basic freedom. Wheres the manure???
God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. . What country before ever existed a century & a half without
a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people
preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What
signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots &
tyrants. It is its natural manure.
- Thomas Jefferson, Tree of Liberty letter (November 13, 1787)
Its also true that disruption, such as knocking out power grids, can contribute to the government losing face and the peoples
desire for change. But I doubt it would in our culture. Those who could afford them would simply buy generators. The
government would spin power outages as some enemy trying to destroy the people's freedom, and instruct the people to go
shopping...
Knocking out power grids would probably prove more useful (at opportune moments in well co-ordinated attacks) for disrupting
electronic surveillance, communications, and for diversionary purposes.
Gerbil March 9th, 2007, 03:27 PM

The main problem, IMO, is that the police and military in general try to do a good job. Yes, there are the egotistical facists
who abuse their position, but they turn up everywhere.
Politicians make the laws, and it's the politicians that need to be got rid of if the laws are going to be changed. Unfortunately,
they also control the media, and control of the media = control of the sheeple.
In a theoretical revolution, the last thing that you'd want to do is to target innocent civilians. Apart from turning them against
you, it buys into government propaganda about your side being a bunch of ignorant terrorists who want to destroy civilisation
for their megalomaniac ideals. It would be possible to work around the population, but an even better strategy is to get them
on your side (not least as cannon fodder :D )
From this perspective, it might also be possible to get the police/military on your side if you had enough support. A military
coup guarantees success. But with armed forces being stripped of their traditional role as law-enforcing citizens, and turned
into products of the machine, reaching out to them would be substantially more difficult.
And even if you're fighting for freedom, it does need to be remembered that the sheep don't want to be freed. You can't
explain to them the idealistic benefits of revolution, you need to tell them why they need it.
defiant March 19th, 2007, 02:08 AM

Gerbil wrote:
The main problem, IMO, is that the police and military in general try to do a good job. Yes, there are the egotistical facists
who abuse their position, but they turn up everywhere. Politicians make the laws, and it's the politicians that need to be got rid
of if the laws are going to be changed. Unfortunately, they also control the media, and control of the media = control of the
sheeple.
Politicians make the laws - true - but they also control the police in order to enforce the laws they make. Some cops don't like
it, but exceedingly few sacrafice their pensions to buck the system.
Like us, they know the system is corrupt. They know it better than most of us. The bottom line is that they want their paycheck
and a pension down the line.
The bottom line is, an individual with integrity wouldn't ruin peoples lives enforcing bullshit laws for a paycheck and a pension.
nbk2000 March 19th, 2007, 03:02 AM

Once you know what's going down, you recognize the police as the enemies of freedom that they are, for you can't have a
Police State without police, now can you? ;)
The Police State Road Map, 1.4MB PDF

http://www.policestateplanning.com/download/psrm.pdf
Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America, 2MB PDF

http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/balko_whitepaper_2006.pdf

Do you guys ever think that with a complete overthrow of the FedGov that logically the people with the most resources will get
control again? And this time with no pesky constitution to be bothered with. Corporations have the money, have the power,
and have the men(Blackwater/Halliburton), if one ever succeeded in overthrowing the government in America you would be
ruled by the corporations outright, instead of them just having a disproportionate amount of influence...
Unless you have the majority of people with you, revolution will get you nowhere. You will just end up with a dictator/oligarchy
of the rich.
The American people must be awakened, but if they are awakened violent revolution will hopefully not be nescessary because
as the people our government will be forced to listen to us and resotre our freedoms. If the FedGov is faced with destruction or
repentance, they will turn back and find their constitutional roots as the goal of any government is to keep itself alive.

In an anarchic revolution, it's likely that the population would split into tribes. It's basic mammalian behaviour.
Just out of interest...nbk: do you oppose the police as they are at the moment, or the idea of having any police at all?
nbk2000 March 19th, 2007, 06:20 PM

Obviously there must be some local law-enforcement to keep the peace and allow for civilization, but a universal police state is
oppressive and a tool of the kakistocracy that we have now.
Every town should have it's own sheriff, but not a global network of universal enforcers...unless they're Sturmhuhn. ;)
defiant March 21st, 2007, 01:15 AM

It's a catch 22.
Local law-enforcement has its advantages if well implemented, but the mechanism of financing is always dictated by the
"kakistocracy." Therein lies the problem.
Where corruption exists, the police are perfectly aware of its origins.
In my small world, a cop told me that someone from City Hall ordered him to arrest a guy who had broken no law. The cop
asked what the guy did, and was told to make up something.
Another cop told me that they are directed to target people less financially well off, because they can t affo rd a la wyer o r to
take off work to figh t the cita tion/arre st. This ho norable officer said he d deny wha t he said if I reported it.
Another cop shared how he and some other cops tried clean up a residential neighborhood that was infested by drug
dealers and related violent crime. According to him they were very successful (getting one dealer to turn on another) - but
that the Chief of Police intervene d directing th em to back off the drug dealers and concentrate on traffic violations . The
office rs said the war o n drugs was a total joke and that the system wa s intended to perpetuate the proble ms an d increase
police budgets.
Without a d oubt I m jaded living in Miami, FL. Here the police state exists, and is affectionately refe rred to a s the Miami
Model. http://video.go ogle.com/videoplay?docid=-4270 9 1 7 8 1 1 2 4 9 1 2 9 8 23&q=Miam i+Model&h l=en
LibertyOrDeath March 21st, 2007, 03:44 PM

Some form of law enforcement is necessary to have a functioning society. But law enforcement should never be given too
much power. It should always be kept highly accountable to the citizenry and should never be given weapons that aren't legally
available to ordinary citizens. That is far from the case today.
If the pigs get out of line and start to violate peoples' rights, and if the system fails to punish them severely for doing so
(which is almost always the case), then I'm a firm believer in citizens taking it upon themselves to kill or otherwise punish the
offending pigs.
If a pig ever seriously victimizes someone close to me, then he WILL die from rifle bullets when he leaves his house one day,
regardless of any later consequences to me. The first slug will go into his kneecap or groin; the second one will go into his
skull. Lesser offenses (e.g., insulting a family member during a traffic stop) might be punished by his car being destroyed or
his house being burned to the ground.
If more citizens had this attitude, then the pigs would be a lot more careful about acting like human beings. Their only
legitimate function is to go after REAL criminals like murderers, rapists, and robbers (not drug-using hippies or peaceful
protestors) and to do so using the minimum force necessary. And the police should never be allowed to punish crime (actual
or suspected) themselves; that's the job of the courts.
It wouldn't be necessary for the whole government to be overthrown for there to be meaningful change in the system. All that's
needed is a return to small, Constitutionally-limited government; the elimination of laws that don't actually protect people
from being victimized by others; and the prescription of severe punishment for government agents who abuse their positions.
If those things don't come about through legal means, then again, I'd like to see people start taking justice into their own
hands.
Gerbil March 21st, 2007, 08:44 PM

If a pig ever seriously victimizes someone close to me, then he WILL die from rifle bullets when he leaves his house one day,
regardless of any later consequences to me. The first slug will go into his kneecap or groin; the second one will go into his
skull. Lesser offenses (e.g., insulting a family member during a traffic stop) might be punished by his car being destroyed or
his house being burned to the ground.
If the guy's had a bad day and is a bit abrupt, you want to destroy his home and all his property? Wow, talk about irony.
In the nicest possible way, in such a society, someone would very quickly put a bullet through your head :) .
LibertyOrDeath March 22nd, 2007, 10:52 PM

If the guy's had a bad day and is a bit abrupt, you want to destroy his home and all his property? Wow, talk about irony.I'm
not talking about someone being a bit abrupt. I'm talking about some pig being extremely and deliberately rude without
provocation (and my gentle, elderly parents would never provoke anyone). This sort of thing has happened to people. Most
cops are assholes, but some are downright psychotic.
Besides, how do you think the typical pig would react if someone insulted one of his family members in front of him? Pigs
have gone ballistic with far less provocation. (They've also harmed people who were completely innocent, but that's another
matter.) Basically, I'm an advocate of citizens treating law enforcement in the same way law enforcement treats citizens.
In the nicest possible way, in such a society, someone would very quickly put a bullet through your head :) .If I went with a
gun and a Taser, bullying people and insulting peoples' mothers or fathers for no good reason, then I'd expect someone to
put a bullet in my head -- and I'd deserve it. So do pigs who masturbate their own egos by abusing the authority they've been
entrusted with. But since I treat everyone with respect until they give me a reason to do otherwise, I have little fear of being
targeted by anyone.
Gerbil March 23rd, 2007, 11:59 AM

I hate sadistic police, although they seem to be more of a problem in the US. But my point was that killing someone is just a
little extreme, and, more to the point, is going to do more harm than good. The entire police department would be working
night and day to find you, and when they did, you would not be in for a nice time. Sure, you could go down in a hail of gunfire,
but that's really not going to solve anything. Creative revenge is much more satisfying :D .
Even burning the guy's house down is OTT. If he's a complete asshole who's immune to official complaints, then sure, he
might deserve it. But what if he has a family? They haven't done anything, and you'd be destroying their home as well. And,
again...a lot of people would be working to bring you in.
To be fair, my dealings with police have always been on good terms- nice people, albeit rather incompetent. If the ones where
you live are different...you're likely to have a different view.
And if one started insulting my family, I would be tempted to put a bullet in him. Tempted :p
mrtnira March 23rd, 2007, 02:33 PM

The anti-police rantings, with all of the attempts at tactful qualifiers, are far below the power of the topic. Theoretical
Revolutionary Strategy, as a disciplined study, has a lot more going for it.
LibertyOrDeath March 23rd, 2007, 02:41 PM

Well, if someone pissed me off enough to make me want serious revenge on him, then I wouldn't be too worried about the
consequences. If some pig beats up on a family member, he simply must die, or at least be maimed, at all costs. Of course
I'd try to keep it anonymous, but if I went down in a hail of gunfire, that would be acceptable. As long as I take a couple of
them with me, I win.
This isn't just a matter of personal revenge. It sends a statement to the piggies that they are accountable for their actions. If
the State doesn't hold them accountable (and in the US, it rarely does), then citizens should.
The pig's innocent family members should not be harmed if possible (burning down a house is just one option), but then
again, any revenge on him is bound to hurt them at least emotionally. He should have thought of that before he decided to
victimize innocent people himself.
Your experiences with the police have been mostly positive -- and I haven't had any seriously negative experiences with them,
either. But I know that police abuse is rampant, at least in the US. Horror stories abound. My impression of the UK, which may
or may not be accurate, is that the laws there are much more repressive but the police are actually a lot more civil. In the US
many pigs are constantly trying to prove what "bad-asses" they are, and they have a paramilitary mindset. They kick in doors
and stick guns in childrens' faces while screaming profanity. The more such bastards find their way prematurely into the
cemetery, the better.
mike16 March 23rd, 2007, 03:16 PM

Unless the pig killed a member of your family or a close friend, they are not worth killing and spending a lifetime in jail for it,
if you get cought.
I think if you really want revenge on a pig, putting an IED under his car and destroying it in the middle of the night, while not
harming anybody, would strike fear into him.
Imagine every morning, when he gets into his new pigmoble, he has the thought in the back of his mind, that there could be
another IED under his car waiting to turn him into pork chops.
nbk2000 March 23rd, 2007, 03:53 PM

Police are just enforcers of the will of the State. If the State is brutal, so are the police.
However, if the police are the ones who have to die enforcing the States will, then they're not as likely to be too vigourous in
enforcing it, now are they? ;)
Take the lesson of the Iraqi resistance...roadside bombs.

Pigs have to drive around on patrols to have any presence. You can simply set up a roadside IED and wait however long it
takes for one to drive by.
This happens enough, they'll start going to armored vehicles, requiring larger IEDs. Or, they could start flying around in
helicopters like the brits did in Ireland, but that even further reduces their presence. :p
There's also value in not killing the offending pig, but his/her family instead. If you thought they were brutal before, just wait
'till after their family is slaughtered.
Then let them run amok amoungst the masses, creating new recruits for you. :D
Gerbil March 23rd, 2007, 04:01 PM

They kick in doors and stick guns in childrens' faces while screaming profanity.
If that's the case, I don't blame you for wanting to take them out. Of course, if someone commits a crime, they can't expect
to be treated with kid gloves, but innocent until proven guilty tends to be a fairer way of dealing with people.
The UK isn't actually that repressive...it's more like, the prerequisites for a police state are being created. From speaking to
people I know across the pond, it's actually freer than the US in many ways. The big anomaly is the stupid gun laws.
If someone wanted to take ultimate control of the UK, it wouldn't be that difficult. CCTV cameras...ID cards...and the
suggestion of RFID tags and x-ray cameras in public places.
If some pig beats up on a family member, he simply must die, or at least be maimed, at all costs. Of course I'd try to keep it
anonymous, but if I went down in a hail of gunfire, that would be acceptable. As long as I take a couple of them with me, I
win.
The problem is, if they kill or arrest you, they've completed their mission. A couple of grunts getting shot isn't going to get in
the way of headlines such as "EVIL POLICE KILLER TAKEN OUT BY OUR BRAVE OFFICERS". In the public eye, you fail.
Getting killed in a firefight is nice and heroic, but in practical terms, you could do a lot more by staying alive. Egocentric idiots
are not worth getting killed over.
Also, a lot of the time, they're just trying to provoke. If you react violently, you're playing into their hands, and they can then
arrest you for something else as well.
Yes sir no sir might not be a macho image, but it's far better to give the impression that you're a quiet little sheep, and use
that to your advantage.
nbk2000 March 23rd, 2007, 10:14 PM

Egocentric idiots are not worth getting killed over.
Dying for, no. Killing, yes.

This isn't just a matter of personal revenge. It sends a statement to the piggies that they are accountable for their actions. If
the State doesn't hold them accountable (and in the US, it rarely does), then citizens should.
Remember Rodney King? Asshole got what was coming to him and the police get in trouble over it. If you are black and a real
criminal than the state will hold the cops responsible if they put the cuffs on too tight!
An elementary student was shot in the head at 3:00 PM (not the target, bad aim by gangbanger) in front of the school that is
on my block. The shooter was literally 60 feet from my front door. I have learned that the police have to be aggressive when
dealing with scum, and you start to appreciate them a little more when you think what would happen without them. I work with
one in fact (he works two jobs) and he is a very friendly guy, in fact of all of the guys I work with guess who is the least of an
asshole(including myself)?
I agree it is wrong when the police forget that there duty is to PROTECT and SERVE, not punish and profit, but taking out the
police will only make enemies in the community, at least in current society. The police can be aggravating, the police can be
arrogant, the police can even be too rough, but rarely do they go about raping and murdering like the criminals. Until the
police are as bad as the criminals the people will not support action against them.
hatal March 24th, 2007, 05:19 PM

"Now for something completly different". After the "who to kill" debate, I would like to know what could be the best strategy to
get your message to the "masses". And by masses I mean our kind of people or those who are willing to change. How would
you organize a broad network of people to be the base for a revolution before any armed conflict?
mrtnira March 25th, 2007, 12:54 AM

Hatal, please read A Manual For Direct Action by Martin Oppenheimer. It is a place to start for the answer to your question, and
it remains relevant as a framework for non-violent grass roots citizen-based action today.
If we want Democracy to work, and to live in its fuller potential, an informed and engaged citizenry is essential. That active
engagement by the broad masses is both good for government, and good for the population of the nation. It is an optimized
condition.
Also, all of the talk of killing people, and of revenge, is degrading. It serves no better purpose, and it takes away from the
better ideas posted in the Forum. Even if people are just "talking" or airing their thoughts, to someone outside of normal
Forum useage would read it with a different understanding, and it would sound to them like an advocacy of violence.
Please think about how others would hear your words.

Remember Rodney King? Asshole got what was coming to him and the police get in trouble over it. If you are black and a real
criminal than the state will hold the cops responsible if they put the cuffs on too tight!I'm the last person who thinks black
scum like Rodney King should be coddled; people like him should be locked up and the key thrown away. But I still have a
problem with pigs administering "street justice." If we let them get away with it when they're doing it to niggers, then rest
assured, they'll start doing it to everyone else whenever they can get away with it. Like this frail little old woman who didn't
want to give up her tiny revolver to the pigs who broke into her home after Katrina -- watch the cocksuckers tackle her:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Qx0cTze0M
What if she'd had osteoporosis? She would have had every bone in her body broken. Too bad most of the other New Orleans
folks who had their guns confiscated by the pigs didn't resist. And I've seen other clips of police brutality against peaceful
people every bit as bad as that one.
An elementary student was shot in the head at 3:00 PM (not the target, bad aim by gangbanger) in front of the school that is
on my block. The shooter was literally 60 feet from my front door. I have learned that the police have to be aggressive when
dealing with scumIf they have to be aggressive and use force to arrest someone, then so be it. But they have no business
punishing lawbreakers once they're in custody. When the police are allowed to do that, they become too powerful. Punishment
is the job of the courts. If the courts are too lenient (and they often are when it comes to real crimes, though they can be very
harsh on certain victimless crimes), then that's another problem.
and you start to appreciate them a little more when you think what would happen without them.Well, for one thing, we'd be
able to experiment with explosives without fear of arrest. :p
Honestly, though, I have nothing against the idea of law enforcement per se. If the police were just restricting their activities to
capturing murderers, rapists, thieves, and others who victimize people, and bringing them in front of a judge, then I'd have no
problem with them. What I have a major problem with are the current attitudes and actions of most of the law enforcement
community -- not to mention with the many tyrannical laws that they willingly and eagerly enforce. In some areas, law-abiding
whites are at the mercy of gang bangers because the former are afraid to be arrested for carrying an illegal gun for protection.
And then there are all the people whose lives have been ruined because they were arrested for non-violent offenses such as
drug use or owning the wrong kind of weapons. Pigs usually use the line, "If you don't like the law, then get it changed" -- as
if average citizens had any say in the law, and as if basic rights such as the Second Amendment were considered to be based
on majority opinion anyway. They've gone from being peacekeepers to the willing attack dogs of the ruling plutocrats.
I work with one in fact (he works two jobs) and he is a very friendly guy, in fact of all of the guys I work with guess who is the
least of an asshole(including myself)?I've met friendly cops, too, and I don't doubt that some cops at least try to do the right
thing. But there are far too many bullies and thugs in their ranks, and I rarely hear the "good" ones ever condemn them. On
the contrary, the attitude I've seen among most cops is that every other cop is a brother and is always justified in anything he
does.
BTW, I'd be very, very careful about trusting any cop just because he's friendly. Ted Bundy was also friendly before revealing
his true colors.
I agree it is wrong when the police forget that there duty is to PROTECT and SERVE, not punish and profit, but taking out the
police will only make enemies in the community, at least in current society. The police can be aggravating, the police can be
arrogant, the police can even be too rough, but rarely do they go about raping and murdering like the criminals. Until the
police are as bad as the criminals the people will not support action against them.I don't believe people should go out and
randomly kill cops or anything like that. But I also believe that vigilante justice against the ones who step over the line is
appropriate, regardless of what the community or anyone else thinks. If the System won't administer justice, then Joe Citizen
should.
Pigs generally don't rape, but they murder often enough -- or at least commit manslaughter by shooting negligently. Far more
often, what they do is ruin lives by arresting (kidnapping) people who have victimized no one. And serious physical assault by
police is ubiquitous. What's reported in the media is necessarily only the tip of the iceberg, since probability dictates that
relatively few incidents will be caught on camera.
If you really think cops are your friends, try carrying a loaded gun in NYC or LA and letting the first cop you come across know
that you're carrying one for no reason other than to protect yourself against violent crime. I can 99% guarantee you that he'll
pull his gun on you and arrest you. He might even shoot you on the spot. Meanwhile, thanks to his efforts, whites cower in
fear, unarmed, in their homes while MS-13 and the Crips are running around armed on the streets.
Again, I'm not advocating getting rid of the police. I just think the System needs a major overhaul, both with respect to laws
and enforcers. Above all, the police need to be kept from becoming too powerful, and they need to be held at least as
accountable as anyone else when they abuse the trust placed in them.

If the police were just restricting their activities to capturing murderers, rapists, thieves, and others who victimize people, and
bringing them in front of a judge, then I'd have no problem with them.
Innocent people are inevitably going to get arrested. As I said before, innocent until proven guilty.
Btw, just out of interest, do you really think that in society, all the whites are law abiding and everyone else is a filthy
murdering nigger?
But I also believe that vigilante justice against the ones who step over the line is appropriate, regardless of what the
community or anyone else thinks. If the System won't administer justice, then Joe Citizen should.
Ah, but the system itself is made up of lots of Joe Citizens, albeit citizens who've gone mad with power.
Also, the idea of vigilante justice, as well meaning as it is, is socially flawed. Once you have lynch mobs, then anyone is a fair
target. Just look at medieval witch hunts. Without a soft but firm grip on law and order, society generally descends into chaos.
If there is evidence of police brutality, it should be immediately investigated and the suspect removed from duties on full pay
(innocent until proven guilty). If he or she really has been abusing power, then they should be kicked off the force by default,
and given a prison sentence if warranted. Treated like anyone else.
Having individuals gunning people down in the streets because of 'disrespect' (just like them niggers) is incredibly flawed.

Innocent people are inevitably going to get arrested. As I said before, innocent until proven guilty.Agreed, and that's another
reason why it's especially important that "street justice" administered by police not be tolerated. Arrests should be effected
using the minimum force possible.
Btw, just out of interest, do you really think that in society, all the whites are law abiding and everyone else is a filthy
murdering nigger? LOL, not at all. Blacks do commit a disproportionate share of the violent crime in the US, but of course
there are plenty of decent blacks. I've even met a few intelligent ones. :D Seriously, I don't harbor a blanket hatred of any
race, although I do recognize that races tend to compete for their own interests and whites tend to end up getting screwed by
their generosity. But I guess that's another thread.
Ah, but the system itself is made up of lots of Joe Citizens, albeit citizens who've gone mad with power.I'd say that once Joe
Citizen becomes an agent of the state, he ceases to be Joe Citizen and needs to be watched carefully. Power always corrupts.
Also, the idea of vigilante justice, as well meaning as it is, is socially flawed. Once you have lynch mobs, then anyone is a fair
target. Just look at medieval witch hunts. Without a soft but firm grip on law and order, society generally descends into
chaos.Well, as I said earlier, I don't have a problem with the idea of law enforcement per se (with the aforementioned
qualifications). And I certainly don't believe vigilante justice should be dispensed willy-nilly; in fact, I'm against it in nearly all
cases except when it's used against the System itself. The reason is that the System can be used to deal with common
criminals; but who deals with the System when it steps over the line? Who polices the police? Someone has to do it, and if the
System is unwilling to police itself, then vigilantism is really the only alternative.
I'm fully in favor of a peaceful society, but in my opinion even chaos is preferable to a situation where you have a ruling class
and its enforcers who can do whatever they want to everyone with impunity. No one has a right to rule over anyone -- ruling
and authority are privileges that can and should be taken away in dramatic fashion if they are abused.
If there is evidence of police brutality, it should be immediately investigated and the suspect removed from duties on full pay
(innocent until proven guilty). If he or she really has been abusing power, then they should be kicked off the force by default,
and given a prison sentence if warranted. Treated like anyone else.That would be nice, but you have to remember that the
police are on their own side. The System protects itself, and "officers don't rat out their brother officers." Investigations of
police misconduct are generally nothing more than whitewashes. Only the most egregious abuses by pigs are punished in the
US, and then only when the abuses are somehow leaked into the public eye. The punishment given is generally much lighter
than would be given to Joe Citizen, even though it should be greater for the same offense (because it involves a violation of
public trust).
Having individuals gunning people down in the streets because of 'disrespect' (just like them niggers) is incredibly flawed.I
agree, and I never advocated shooting anyone over mere disrespect. But take a look at that YouTube video linked above. I
wish someone had shot the pig who tackled that little old lady, and for two reasons: (1) abusing a frail eldery lady; (2)
violating her Second and Fourth Amendment rights under the US Constitution. That's an example of the kind of grotesque
abuse I'm talking about -- not scowling at someone when handing out a speeding ticket.
nbk2000 March 26th, 2007, 07:57 PM

The fact is that the majority of ciminals are black, just like the majority of non-criminals are white.
There are white criminals, yes, just like there are law-abiding blacks, but the majority of violent criminals are black.
And while there are honest cops who are interested in justice, the majority are pigs who lust after the power the badge gives
them.
The operative word in vigilante is vigilant, meaning on the alert; watchful.
If police know that citizen vigilates will kill them for abuse of their power, on the streets or in the jails, than they might be
more circumspect in their behaviour.
It's when they think that there is no one watching, especially in the jails and prisons, that the sadist comes out of the pigs.
The gun seizure video is just one example of the corruption of the police to serve the politicans agenda. Do you think they
cold have gotten away with that 5o years ago? HELL NO!
There wouldn't be any blacks on the police force to start with, the whites would all have their guns, and the blacks would know
better to try the shit they did after Katrina because they'd be shoot on sight by the whites.
But now...a black mayor has federal troops going door-to-door to disarm the whites, leaving the niggers to rampage. You
didn't see many black cops around though...not because there weren't plenty of them in the New Orleans PD, but because they
deserted their posts to leave or loot, as seen on CNN.

The fact is that the majority of ciminals are black, just like the majority of non-criminals are white.
Ghetto killers get a lot of press - but governments routinely commit far greater violence(torture, slaughter, and general
ruination of lives) over the course of a few months than any serial or ghetto killer has committed throughout their lifespan.
The greatest difference is that street level violence is viewed as "criminal violence" whereas institutionalized government or
corporate violence is considered "white-collar crime".
nbk2000 March 28th, 2007, 06:13 AM

State violence is called law enforcement or foreign policy.
Corporate violence is called lawsuit or business.
:D
Truely, Governments are the largest threat to freedom and lives of the masses, since they have the most power to enforce
their borganistic will upon the proletariat.
But I'm far more likely to be physically assaulted, or just plain hassled, by any negro scum in my proximity than by a
Government decree.
megalomania March 28th, 2007, 03:07 PM

If a see a group of senators on the street corner I will not lock my doors and pull out my firearm. Senators may tax us, and
steal from us, and make things difficult, but I don't fear for my life and physical well being when I see them.
Niggers on the other hand are dangerous. Law abiding job holding African Americans do not loiter about on street corners.
Niggers do. Only criminals walk up and down the streets at night; they are not out for exercise.
I beg to differ that ghetto killers get lots of press. There is more press devoted to the evils of the government and
corporations than any other kind. In fact almost all of the news is about politics or some scandal. An important rule of
journalism is you don't publish "dog bites man" stories. Niggers are always killing, raping, stealing, and scamming. It's not
news unless they do something truly horrific or exceptional, like beat and rob a 101 year old woman , or kill a school bus full
of kindergarteners.
You think any of the press about Bush is glowing or positive? Do you ever see those pictures of Boy Scouts shaking the
President's hand? Ever see an article saying "The Oil Companies are Doing a Good Job. Attaboy!" Hell no, you don't. Ever read
about Paris Hilton's charitable work? Chari-what? The news is all about people screwing up so bad the whole town/state/
country/world should hear about it.
I turned on Fox News just now to see what the headlines of the day are to prove my point, but I may be proven wrong. Top
story: The cops are hunting a nigger serial rapist in Chandler/Phoenix Az who stalks and rapes little girls. Quoth the news man
"this predator, this child rapist might live right next door to you." See there, a criminal nigger, but one that hunts down and
rapes white girls, young white girls, is the kind of thing that keeps people scared. It's not news that niggers rape children, but
it is news that a psycho nigger serial child rapist is on the prowl.
Other news? The police tracking down criminal illegal aliens. Not just criminals because they trespass in our nation illegally, but
criminal because they commit crimes while here. Time for that long bus ride home amigo. Ooh, the forced roundups are not
just in Kalifornia (too easy), but a major effort in middle America. Kali may be lost to the brown avalanche, but the rest of us
don't take kindly to criminal tresspassers who don't pay taxes, but do steal our benefits.
Ever accidentally tune into Err America on the radio? I bet they don't care about child raping serial raping niggers (a good black
man only getting his reparations). They will have something to say about Bush, most will be lies, some will be inaccurate, and
none of it will be nice.

The local news in my area covers ghetto crime more than government crime, but national reporting is a bit different, and
(you're probably correct) that government crime gets more coverage (nationally).
Nevertheless its all propoganda.
The media's portrayal of the ghetto or common criminal generally involves a manhunt and law enforcement apprehending the
despicable criminal when the story concludes. In fact, Hollywood (tv/movies/news) in the 50's wasn't allowed to report a
criminal besting law enforcement and getting away. The message was that if you commit a crime you're going to get caught,
and the news media continues to follow this format (generally).
The news media's portrayal of government crime (nowadays) sends an altogether different message - namely, that no
corrective action will be taken or in extreme cases some flunky will be prosecuted as a scapegoat. And its no secret that those
responsible for violence institutionalized through political means will get away with their crimes. In fact that's the message -
that there's nothing that can be done about government corruption and that its a black hole quagmire that's best avoided.
The desired result of this message is apathetic sheeple, and its an extremely effective approach.
But I'm probably all fucked up in the head, and in some respects think the nigger who robs or kills putting his own life on the
line in the process is more honorable than the politician who's shielded and plays others to do the dirty deed.
... not that I wouldn't kill a nigger if he crossed the line.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Pigs FUCKING SUCK!
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I probably hate you February 5th, 2007, 02:45 PM

This by no means is global but it really pissed me off and seemed note worthy. On Saturday evening 3 stupid fucking cops
came knocking on my door and as a big surprise to me they had a warrant for my arrest.I had absolutely no clue what the
warrant was for so they called it in and confirmed it , it was valid . I asked them what it was for and the claimed criminal
mischief in the 2nd degree , I then asked if they could be more specific they said no we are just the middle men delivering
warrants (they were arresting many people that night for old warrants) I then asked when is this from they said last October . I
asked why wasn't I notified about any of this before now they had no answer but claimed when I got to jail I would be told.So
off to jail I go pissed as hell watching my kids crying from the front window , I get to jail and guess what they have no fucking
clue either why I am there all they know is criminal mischief , I asked the rude fuck if he could find out he says not until
tomorrow morning . I mouthed off a little but was then flanked by two sheriffs trying to act all tough so I decided just to shut
my mouth because I wanted the fuck out of there , my brother was coming over to my house with some beer and I really
needed some at this point , so I ask about bail it was 10,000 . Well that was out of the question I don't have that kind of
money sitting around , so I got stuck in some so called TV room , even though there were several single cells open , in this
room there was a ethnically diverse group and it smelled like sticking my head up a horses ass , flies everywhere garbage
overflowing a stinking fucking hole ! Then I notice on the wall a fucking sign stating I would have to pay $65 room and board
per night that really fucking steamed me , because in this room there were no beds not even the concrete slabs the single
rooms had , the lights were on all night , +snoring sticking dirt fuckers all over and I was missing out on my beer!!
Well after sitting there all fucking night with no sleep I finally get to find out what I actually was charged for , to my disbelief it
was for a truck I supposedly keyed back in last august . I didn't do this and they had absolutely nothing to prove I did . So
now I get to go back to court and do a bunch more bullshit . I am hoping on some kind of lawsuit against them but I have to
hire a lawyer first . The funniest thing is I was never read my rights I am hoping this will help me in my law suit .
This story is not meant to be just a rant about my bullshit weekend but to warn everyone else the fucking pigs could be
walking through your front door at any time for no real reason , just the week before I had some AP and mekp sitting out on a
shelf that would have been visible and then I would have been really fucked . So watch what you do our country is fast
becoming less and less free . I wish this land of sheep could join together and demand our freedom back .
In my dreams I am plotting a surprise for the investigating officer but only in my dreams .;)
Grapes Of Wraith February 5th, 2007, 07:38 PM

You do know it will be very expensive to win a lawsuit like that, so if you think 10k is allot don't plan on winning.
tmp February 5th, 2007, 08:29 PM

Been there, done that ! For me it was almost 8 years ago.
Reading you your Miranda warnings doesn't seem to apply anymore.
Upon consulting my attorney, I asked him if the The Bill Of
Rights had been thrown out the window. Apparently, Miranda is
used when the cops want to be sure they don't want to risk
losing a case. The same week of my arrest a murderer was picked
up in Baltimore and the cops made a point of reading him his
Miranda protections.
TreverSlyFox February 5th, 2007, 08:54 PM

Miranda is only read when LEO's plan on asking you questions. Since all the LEOs were doing was serving a warrant and
dropping you off at the jail. They had no reason to read you your Miranda rights because they weren't going to ask you any
questions.
Jacks Complete February 5th, 2007, 09:19 PM

I'd suggest fitting a cheap video camera so you can see who's there before answering. Then pretend you aren't in. It's not a
"no knock" so they can't just smash down the door, so if you aren't there, they will walk away. Well, mostly.
Then you turn up and find out what the issue is on your terms at 9am next morning, clean as a whistle.

Miranda is supossed to be read to ANYONE being arrested, regardless of reason or intent.
After all, they may simply be picking you up on a warrant, but bet your ass they'll report anything you say on the drive to the
jail, to be used against you in a court of law.
Last time I was arrested, I didn't say shit, not even my name. I was John Doe until my fingerprints came back. :p
And they didn't read me Miranda either, but I already know it by heart. ;)

All that not reading you your Miranda rights really does is makes anything you say to the police invalid in court(in theory).
Them not reading you your rights doesn't really mean they did anything illegal, it just means that they can't use possible
confessions, evidence obtained from your statements, basically any self-incrimination.
My advice to you is to get a lawyer, not to sue, but for your court. Many times the local judge will go with whatever the cops
say(in district courts) for petty offenses because thety have a long standing relationship with them. I was cited for disorderly
conduct a while back in the suburbs, plead innocent, because I was more or less, and went it alone. The magistrate bitch and
the asshole cop treated me like scum at the trial/hearing and decided I was guilty before I even had a chance to state my
case. I got a lawyer and appealed the ruling, not because I cared so much about a 420$ fine and summary offense on my
record but because I didn't want that cunt of a judge to win. I was found not guilty after my appeal.
If you really didn't do it I am sure you will be found innocent, but it is better to be found innocent first than haveing to go
through the appeals process which takes over a year, so get yourself a lawyer. As to suing, I really advise against it, you won't
win and then the cops will be gunning for you. It really didn't sound like they were too nasty to you, it sounds more that they
were just doing their job. My experience with the police was much worse I think(although I didn't have to go to jail) they
pointed a gun at my head, called me an asshole and threatened to shoot me if I "tried anything funny". All over what ended
up being a disorderly conduct charge.
defiant February 6th, 2007, 02:28 AM

In Florida, criminal mischief of the second degree is a charge of willful destruction of property totalling $200 or less. It's a
misdemeanor. The catch is that law enforcement (in Florida at least) is prohibited from arresting an individual for a
misdemeanor unless the offense occurs in their presence [Roder v. Fokervitch, 722 So.2d 925 (Fla. App. 5 Dist 1998)]. In
Florida, being arrested for a misdemeanor that wasn't observed by the law enforcement officer is an invalid arrest, and
imprisonment under these circumstances gives rise to civil liability for violating your constitutional rights.
Suing the police can have repercussions, but raising the issues can get the charges dropped (should the law where you are be
similar to Florida with regards to misdemeanor arrests).

That sucks. Even worse, I don't find the whole thing particularly outrageous or surprising. Who ordered the warrant, and why
did they choose to blame it on you? Do you have a history of this sort of thing? Use this misfortune as an opportunity to
reflect on what went wrong-- and make sure you do everything in your power to keep it from happening again.
As for the lawsuit, I say fuck it and cut your losses. Seriously, it isn't worth it. Life is too short...if this happened to me, I'd be
far more interested in forgetting the whole thing and getting on with my life. Unfortunately, in the real world, life isn't fair and
there is no such thing as justice. The best you can do is take the occasional sucker punch in the nuts and keep moving
forward. Pausing to reflect on how much worse it could have been should make you positively jump for joy. LOL

If the cops don't read you your Miranda rights, and you say something about having a body in the freezer, do you think the
cop is going to tell the judge he didn't read you your rights?
No.
He'll lie like the pig that he is, the judge will know he's lying and not care, and away you go.
Any judge will tell you that ignorance of the law is no defence, so take that to heart and KNOW YOUR RIGHTS! Do NOT depend
on the minions of a corrupt police state to tell them to you!

I'll agree with NBK in that a person is supposed to be Mirandized at the time
of arrest. What's worse, is that here in Maryland there is a list of crimes,
including some non-violent misdemeanors, that allow the cops to make a
dynamic entry raid without warrants. Among those so-called "crimes" is
pissing in public which is called indecent exposure here. The excuse is that
this is a quality of life crime. Just more bullshit to hassle more people.

In Florida, being arrested for a misdemeanor that wasn't observed by the law enforcement officer is an invalid arrest
Defiant, where did you get this information? My "Florida rules of criminal procedure" book is in my storage unit along with all
my other lawbooks, but I can say with certainty that this is incorrect.
You may be arrested if an officer has PC to believe you commited the crime in question, even if it is not commited in the
presence of a sworn officer.
I have a feeling you are citing (and studying) caselaw that is only relevant during trial, as in writing motions, writs, etc.. You
need to buy or check out a copy of "Florida rules of criminal procedure" from your local public library or "pro se" self help
center.

I am assuming he is talking about a summary offense, which is where you are cited as opposed to arrested. I think they may
be able to arrest you if it happens in their presence.

Last time I was arrested the police sergeant tried reading my Miranda Rights. Keyword: tried. He had to ask the rookie for his
miranda card. After this experience(and I'm sure you all have your own) do you honestly think these public servants of justice
care more about the principles of their authority over raising their occupational statistics for their next promotion/wage raise?
Conclusion: Cops do how they want for what they want and they're in the best position to do so. You're just another measly
prick walking into the justice department. You're no David and Goliath will crush you and take a shit on you. Cut your losses as
much as possible and move on. Swallow your pride and your desire for mythological principles in this world. The righteous
drown in their own stubbornness.
Learn, adapt and move on.

DMSOnMyVeins:
The Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure (or Civil Procedure, Appellate Procedure, Workers' Compensation Procedure
(repealed), FAC, and so forth - are the starting point. Case law defines procedure as it defines statutory and common law.
Florida rules of procedure are available at:
http://www.floridabar.org/tfb/TFBLegalRes.nsf/D64B801203BC919485256709006A561C/
E1A89A0DC5248D1785256B2F006CCCEE?OpenDocument
But as I've said, its not in the Fla. R. Civ. P. - its in case law. My research was/is conducted at law libraries. You are correct that
such case pertains to motions/writs and trial. Once an individual is arrested that's the procedure.
There may be exceptions to the law I cited, but it applies to criminal mischief - which I researched after being so charged for
destroying government property.
Since that time I've been cited or arrested four or five times. Each time the charges were dropped. As I've said elsewhere, I
have more than a half dozen civil tort cases filed against the government (not one of which has been dismissed). I've learned
how to file motions, conduct discovery, schedule hearings, and represent myself in court.
Reportedly the reason that cops finally backed off me is because gov't attorneys liked or respected me and told them too. A
gov't rep told me that. An aquaintance told me that he overheard one cop tell another that I was armed and dangerous and
should be left alone. Both are true in measure.
The law, politics, and weapons, are not altogether unrelated. If one is unafraid.
Finally, while its important to choose ones battles - shame on those who prescribe buckling under cause the government is too
powerful too oppose. That's fucking disgraceful.

Knowledgehugry:
I.Probably Hate You says he was imprisoned. That's not a "will appear" arrest or a citation for a summary offense.
I can't speak for the law everywhere under all circumstances, but as I've said, in Florida a cop is not permitted to make an
arrest for a misdemeanor that did not occur in his presence. They can arrest you for a felony or certain misdemeanor
exceptions - but not for a charge of criminal mischief.
Local law enforcement confirmed this.
The law in other state jurisdictions may differ.
DMSOnMyVeins February 7th, 2007, 01:52 AM

Defiant,
You're right, it's been a while since I studied law to help my brother when he was first arrested in 2001 on 17 Federal and 3
Florida felony charges.
Maybe I was thinking of misdemeanor cases where people were arrested based on witnesses seeing the crime commited
(citizen's arrest?).
My apologies.

For those of you interested in law and the history of the Miranda warnings, here's a link to all the Supreme Court cases which
ever touched on Miranda. It's always fun to listen to oral argument, and hear the reasoning behind how these cases were
decided--and speculate on the direction we're headed:
http://www.oyez.org/issues/index_html?group=criminal-procedure&term=miranda
Given the current ideological direction of the court, one more Bush appointee and Miranda might not be long for this world.
Just last term, the Supreme Court decided a case which touched on the right of arrested foreign citizens to be informed of the
right to assistance from their embassy, under a provision of the Vienna Convention. Almost all European countries find this
right to be an important part of basic human rights and international law. Well, the court decided we can all fuck THAT:
America only honors treaties when it's in their national interest, and evidently, international human rights law is basically worth
jack shit because it's inconvenient. A gross simplification perhaps, but the bottom line is basically correct...and not surprising.
I probably hate you February 7th, 2007, 02:12 PM

I also read up on being read your rights supposedly it is to protect your 5th amn. rights when you are being questioned , so
who knows maybe it will have no bearing on this case , but I know for a fact there is no evidence linking me to this crime
(even if I did commit a crime there would be no evidence) so there is no probable cause to even issue a warrant , the
arresting officers were fine they are not the ones who pissed me off it is the investigating officers who are from a small
neighboring town who frequently search you illegally pull you over for nothing and basically do what they want when they want ,
they have been a thorn in my side since I was a kid . As the law goes they had no right to issue a warrant , besides that I am
pissed and hate cops anyways . By the way where I live criminal mischeif in the 2nd is a felony which sucks even more . Really
the biggest reason I want to sue is to show these fucks they are not above the law.
I already hired a lawyer I hate them almost as much as cops but as long as he serves his purpose that will be fine . I will see
how all this goes and if I find out anything benificial I will pass it along . Thank you all for your posts .

In real life scenarios "probable cause" requires a lesser standard than "evidence" does in a trial setting.
As you've got a lawyer, what I'd recommend you do is get copies of his discovery requests (requests to produce, and
interrogatories or depositions, if he/she takes it that far) - as well as the responses to these discovery requests. Often it
exposes a weakness in the case -contradictions of some sort or allegations that can't possibly be true. Sometimes attorney
work on an assembly line of cases (to make money) and don't take the time to or overlook matters that you might pick up
on.

Anytime the police ask you a question, say these words:
I have nothing to say
With these 5 words, there's nothing they can use against you, and no way to perjure you. :)
Cobalt.45 February 9th, 2007, 05:25 PM

I can't speak for the law everywhere under all circumstances, but as I've said, in Florida a cop is not permitted to make an
arrest for a misdemeanor that did not occur in his presence. They can arrest you for a felony or certain misdemeanor
exceptions - but not for a charge of criminal mischief.
In Florida if a bitch tells a cop you are stalking her, you will be picked up and arrested just as soon as they find you. No
warrant, no nothing. If they find out you own weapons, or she claims you threatened her with one, it's a felony bust for
aggravated stalking.
Bitches well versed in this little bit of "get back" know to do it late Friday night. Your ass will sit 'till Monday in most cases.
Regardless of the truthfulness of any of charges, this also serves to queer you from legally buying firearms. Does not matter-
the charge is almost as bad as the actual "crime".
And your bail will be damn high.
anonymous411 February 9th, 2007, 09:41 PM

Cobalt45: Moral of the story: avoid getting involved with crazy losers.

That sucks. Even worse, I don't find the whole thing particularly outrageous or surprising. Who ordered the warrant, and why
did they choose to blame it on you? Do you have a history of this sort of thing? Use this misfortune as an opportunity to
reflect on what went wrong-- and make sure you do everything in your power to keep it from happening again.End Quote by
annon.411
If it happens to YOU, you will god damn sure find the whole thing particularly outrageous and surprising! Use this misfortune
as an
opportunity to reflect on what went wrong??!!?? Dude, you have a lot to learn when it comes to vindictive bitches who decide to
take a shot at your freedom while in an imbalanced state of mind.
Your quote:
As for the lawsuit, I say fuck it and cut your losses. Seriously, it isn't worth it. Life is too short...if this happened to me, I'd be
far more interested in forgetting the whole thing and getting on with my life. Unfortunately, in the real world, life isn't fair and
there is no such thing as justice. The best you can do is take the occasional sucker punch in the nuts and keep moving
forward. Pausing to reflect on how much worse it could have been should make you positively jump for joy. LOLEnd 411's
quote...Well 411,You must be living in another world. If you sit and let ANYBODY take your rights and trample on them, then
just sit back with "ah, well, I must have deserved it" needs his fucking head examined. I'd no sooner let some loser cunt rip
off abuse my rights any sooner than the fucking supreme court. You can bet your ass there's retribution to the cunt who lied
under oath to get me picked up w/o a warrant in the first place. I got my rights back and a restraining order on her dumb ass
to boot. Seems it was her second time to use this same ruse in six months, so SHE now has the explaining to do, not me.
Frunk February 14th, 2007, 12:10 AM

Here in Quebec we have a Chart of Rights and Liberties that says we have the right to keep silence.
Therefore, I prefer to use the phrase:
I have the right to say nothing.
InfernoMDM February 14th, 2007, 02:59 PM

With these 5 words, there's nothing they can use against you, and no way to perjure you. :)
Although I agree it also gives a interview/interrogation specialist cause to consider you guilty. That being said if you are guility
you are far better off shutting the hell up.
I am reading Criminal Investigation and Confessions which is a outstanding book, and explains many of the tactics and
procedures used against people to elicit confessions and/or vital information that can get your ass in a bind.
Even people that have taken courses and know the tactics used have been caught by a more experienced investigator.
Although not fool proof non verbal signs can tell most investigators, or make them believe you are guilty.
tiac03 February 15th, 2007, 02:25 AM

Didn't want to start a new topic and I figured this one fit the best so here it goes, seems someone dislikes the police just as
much as some of you do. lol.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070214/van_fire_070214/20070214?hub=Canada

The blast was strong enough to blow out the windows of a doughnut shop and damage several vehicles parked nearby.
Sherbrooke police Chief Gaetan Labbe said explosives were found at the scene and Quebec provincial police are investigating.
Wow...that's REAL observant of him, eh? That's like saying ashes were found at the scene of a fire. :p
As for investigators thinking you are guilty because you won't talk to them...let them suspect all they want. As long as there's
no physical proof, and you haven't opened your yapper and given them a lead to such proof, then they're fucked. :p
You'll be in for a rough time, for sure, but no matter how bad it may be in the jail, just remember how much worse it'd be if
you were going through it on a 25-to-Life. :eek:
If you feel compelled to say anything in response to the pigs goading about 'innocent people don't need lawyers or miranda
rights', quote Armand Jean du Plessis, Cardinal et Duc de Richelieu
If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him
hanged.
And then repeat your right to an attorney and shut the fuck up.
Though, even quoting that may be twisted into making a jury hate you for being more literate than them, so it's best to only
say 'I have nothing to say' and STFU. ;)
Oh, and refuse all food and anything more than mere sips of water, during any interrogation session. They'll let you eat and
drink until your bowel and bladder are ready to rupture, and then deny you the bathroom in hopes that you'll be weak enough
to answer a few of their questions in exchange for using a toilet.
Once you've done that, they know you are weak and won't lay off you until they've gotten their confession. Don't give them
that crack to wedge open.

Oh, and refuse all food and anything more than mere sips of water, during any interrogation session. They'll let you eat and
drink until your bowel and bladder are ready to rupture, and then deny you the bathroom in hopes that you'll be weak enough
to answer a few of their questions in exchange for using a toilet.
Once you've done that, they know you are weak and won't lay off you until they've gotten their confession. Don't give them
that crack to wedge open.
If they do this most states claim that its a coerced (Spell Check didn't save me this time [but NBK did]) statement and will
throw it out of court, but that doesn't mean you haven't already spilled enough beans to screw you with evidence they didn't
have.

HAHA!
Counting on the courts to save you from your bladder isn't a good strategy.
Oh, they might reverse it on appeal 10 years later, but that doesn't do you much good in the meantime, does it?
There was a book called 'Dirty Tricks Cops Play' (or similiar) where such things as spraying the suspects chair with teargas prior
to seating them on it, and other such 'tricks', were described.
Remember, police are permitted to lie, apply any mental coercion, and physical force that doesn't leave provable marks of
torture before trial. All bets are off after conviction!
I've personally seen torture in our fine jails and prisons, such as electroshock with stunguns on restrained victims/near-
drowning/sodomizing with batons/beatings/forced nudity/starvation/medicial neglect until death/guard arranged rapes and
murder.
I could go on, but I made the point that America is only slightly better than a 3rd world shithole when it comes to human
rights.
We haven't yet gotten to the point of cordless drills and soldering irons, but I don't think it'll be much longer.
random136 February 16th, 2007, 01:15 PM

I just had a funny thought (although I must admit not one of my brightest), and since this is posted in the Water Cooler I
think I ll share . Disre gardin g the po tential doubt these actions would place on you r sanity in a court o f law, given the s ituation
fist mentioned above (where the accused is wined and dined and then denied washroom privileges) what law, exactly, would
limit the accused from dropping his pants and squatting in the interrogation room to take a dump, or taking a leak on the
wall.
Now, this concept alone my disgust some of you, but if one were to think objectively what (other then our shame and our
indoctrination with social norms) would limit us from taking such actions. At the very worst, this would amount to an additional
fine for urinating/defecating in a public place. But one can argue that an interrogation room is not a public place, and
additionally, that the inhumane treatment received by the accused warranted such actions to be taken.
Also, consider this, in my municipality holding cells for the recently arrested are furnished with only a simple metal cot (no
mattress or pillow) and a simple aluminum toilet bowl. The room in question is under constant CCTV surveillance, including
one camera directly over the toilet.
If one were to d efecate in a civilized fashion in the holding cell, or in an o b s c e n e fashion in the interrogation room, one
would receive the same lack of privacy. If nothing else, the situation would at least deter further questioning.
Just a funny thought I figured I could share.
Jacks Complete February 23rd, 2007, 05:40 AM

They would probably bill you for the cleaning, same as they bill you for "accommodation"
In the UK the best thing is the cops have to clean it up. :-)
In the UK, as you will probably have picked up, the right to silence has gone, pretty much. The "right" now says that if you
don't say anything now, but say it later, they will do you on the strength of that contradiction. Yes, if you don't start talking
before you have even had a chance to think, you are seen as guilty later on.
The original idea was to stop people saying nothing and coming up with a good story later on. Now, it is simply mis-used, like
all powers will always be.
Match February 24th, 2007, 07:21 AM

What you do is put a little peanut in between your cheeks, and when the proper situation arises, start eating it.

Jacks, what about if you say nothing at all, now or later?
Then there'd be no 'inconsistancy' or claims of 'thought up a good story'. :p
megalomania February 24th, 2007, 06:59 PM

Do not become complacent and allow the corrupt fedgov state to trample your rights because you fear they are an all powerful
entity! It is in challenging the malfeasance of the fedgov in court, in front of witnesses, in the eye of the public, that the
fedgov abuses can be mitigated. If everyone had the attitude that there is nothing to be done when the pigs rape them,
murder them, beat them, falsely imprison them, steal from them, and plant evidence, then we end up just as bad off as a
third world despotic state.
We still have the chance in America and Europe to at least cast off the smothering death hood and slip out of the noose
around our necks before our liberty is executed on the gallows of tyranny and despotism. We are still a nation of the people,
for the people, and by the people. The cops are people just like us, and they are not yet above the law of our creation.
In your case the yield of justice hardly warrants the amount of effort you would have to put into it. Principle is what is really at
stake. No cop, federal agent, or fedgov official is allowed to violate any law or right PERIOD. When they do, they become
criminals themselves, the neo-gestapo of their own private fiefdoms.
When more cops are stripped of their dress blues and clad in prison orange, maybe they will wise up and actually follow the law
instead of trying to profit from it. Ultimately you get what you pay for, and the government pays very little. Is it any wonder
why they take shortcuts with your life?
Whining that your rights were violated because you confessed to a crime, but they never told you they were writing the
confession down is the sheeple approach. You need to know your rights and to know how to fight them. The greatest tool in
the arsenal of the police is the ignorance of the criminals. They assume everyone is a sheep to be herded because almost
everyone acts like a sheep being herded, or more likely a lamb to the slaughter.
I dont mean to imply you need to devote your life to a crusade purifying your good name because of ill treatment and an
inconvenience at the hands of lackeys of the state. That is why we tolerate the existence of lawyers. Just as your freedoms
and rights can be sold at the whims of state lackeys, so too can they be purchased back with the help of the learned men of
the law.
PS. As per InfernoMDM's suggestion I am going to get the book Criminal Interrogation and Confessions by Fred E. Inbau,
John E. Reid, and Joseph P. Buckley. Note the title is Criminal Interrogation and Confessions not Criminal Investigation and
Confessions as InfernoMDM wrote. My library actually has the book on the shelf :)
InfernoMDM February 25th, 2007, 05:17 AM

Something I found out that might be of interest. Some states have claimed and won in court that remaining silent in rare
cases is the equivalent to saying something. Thats why many states now read your Miranda rights as you are arrested.
I am not saying talk freely, but apparently you can get burned either way.
However anytime you are arrested and they interrogate you, per Miranda they can't ask you any questions after you ask for a
Lawyer, even if one isn't available at the time.
Asking for a Lawyer might be a smarter thing to do then remaining silent.


"I want a lawyer and, until then, I have nothing to say."
:)
Bugger February 27th, 2007, 11:06 PM

Re Criminal Interrogation And Confessions:- please upload it to rapidshare.com and post the link here when you find it,
Megalomania. Further information about the book is at http://www.reid.com/store2/list.html?searchtype=book
Jacks Complete February 28th, 2007, 07:03 AM

The issue with saying that, NBK, is that there are CongressCritters who are now claiming that by saying anything at all you
have waived your right to silence!
They came out with that when some guy was pleading the 5th in front of them the other week, but I don't recall the details.
Basically, the state always acts to increase it's own powers, just like a business is in business to stay in business, and
amoebas only exist to make more amoebas. They will take every right and liberty, if they can.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Just the one post for me.
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TactiK February 6th, 2007, 12:04 AM

I just had to register to this seedy little forum to tell you, NBK, that you are a complete asshat.
It must make you feel real big bossing around anyone that makes simple spelling/grammatical mistakes even if the content of there post is actually quite relevant and
interesting.
I mean, you even have a little trophy thread for all the users you have successfully been an asshat to.
The w orst of it is the users that actually stay here and put up with this shit.
Well thats about it.
Dobry vyecher.
Shalashaska February 6th, 2007, 12:32 AM

In a forum where the development of explosives, poisons and various other EXTREMELY dangerous substances is involved, you need a strict observer and intervener to keep
things in check. It discourages people from posting needless questions as well as the instructions with false experimentation, inaccurate ratios or quantities, and vital warnings to
those that might die in a dream they may or may not have.
Sad thing about this post is that the poster probably w on't look back at it, except maybe once, hoping to see how much he changed everyone's mind about NBK and how much
of an "asshat" he is. That means the retribution, courtesy of HED, will be like eating a hermit crab's shell when the hermit crab has already scurried away. :mad:

ppl ho ban my posts n stuff cuz of my spelign r just stuipid grammer nazis ew ho dont care about wut i have 2 asdd about teh explosives an thermitr, < -- Whoever trusts their
fingers and arms to someone who writes like this, please stand up and be counted.

i just had to re-register to this amazing forum to bitch at NBK because he banned me before for using grammar at a second grade level so w hat if i didnt uze punctuation u guys
r lame it's not my fault i didnt kno where 2 look to find a topic on how to use matchheads 2 set off superpowrful plastic binary explosive from blackpowder and bubblegum and
more matchheads i dont understand w hy everyone is so mean i even got banned from TOTSE and bombsock too once but they let me bak
Wow, that guy is an idiot:cool:.

Congratulations on learning how to post fraudulent material on the net to try and make a mockery of someone.
So far the only person who has taken this thread the way a mature and intelligent person should take it is Shalashaska.
The other two that attempted mockery through bad spelling, bad quoting and stupid PM's are what I thought this site was full of in the first place:
Idiots that use correct spelling/grammar and strict rules to hide the fact that they are idiots.
No I did not get banned from here previously and no I did not come here to learn how to make explosives. I stumbled on this site while googling for information on bypassing
alarm systems. Then I noticed the idiotic rules and the moderator of it all that thinks he is god.
My point was, cut a bit of slack. I would rather follow rules if I had respect for the person that makes them, not fear of being in his trophy room.

bad quoting and stupid PM's
To clarify this statement: TactiK fell for the old multiplying popup trick in a recent PM conversation:
Topic: "ur grammer sucks"

http://ww w.youareanidiot.com/ <--- This is you. :D
So you PM'd me to show you cannot spell "Grammar", to quote me for no reason at all and to link me to a website that does not exist?
And I suppose you did this through a PM for fear of being banned for idiocy and spam?
Get a life.
Sorry, it w as http://w ww.youareanidiot.org/
You have still done nothing but make yourself look like a bored 12 year old.
Well done.
By coming in here and telling us to "cut a little slack" in our discussions of explosives, biological and chemical weapons, calling the mods idiots, and clicking on every link I send
him in a PM, TactiK has proven that he is, in fact, an idiot.

tiKTac, what contributions do you bring to this table that would cause any to respect your opinions?

I thought you were just going to make one post, I knew that by baiting you, you would be unable to resist posting again. My mission w as accomplished, I got you to do as I
wished. Dance my puppet, dance!

Puppets are bound to whomever holds the strings, me, being without strings, shall leave now.
But every time you see someone get banned for bad grammar or just plain idiot reasons, you w ill think of what I have said here.
You know I am right, you are just to scared for your reputations to stand up and say it.
So, NBK's puppets, dance.

So, NBK's puppets, dance.
OMG, you're so Hardcore. :rolleyes:
Pretending like everyone secretly agrees with you after you've been exposed as an internet tough guy is lame.
So, since you've fled from the infamous E&W forum, how long 'till we'll be seeing him at totse?

I know this type of character he says he is gone but he won't be. They always have to have the last word, now I just need to think of how to goad him correctly.
As to being scared for our reputations, that is certainly not a reason to be silent, fear of banning is however :D. However, if I thought you w ere right I would speak my mind and
take the banning. That is not to say that I agree with every banning administered, just as there are times I think someone should be banned who is granted a pardon. What I
do alw ays agree with is that I am glad it is not my job to deal with the it. There are other places I would go if I secretly thought NBK w as an "asshat".
As to whether or not w e are NBK's puppets, I am attacking you because you attacked me not NBK. I have not defended NBK nor w ill I, as there is no need to, you certainly
aren't going to hurt his feelings. You are not the first person to publicly attack him, you are however one of the least noteworthy. You think you are original with this post, but
you are not. Others have siad the same things you have said, expecting a great revolution w here the proletariat rebel and overthrow the oppressive dictatorship but they forget
one thing. NBK may be a dictator, but he is our dictator.
The "trophy thread" is actually a blessing to noobies if they read it and learn what not to do.
ultma February 6th, 2007, 04:40 AM

Looks like you have a boyfriend NBK :eek:
He went the wrong way about it if he wants to have his head up your arse, like an "Asshat"

I know this type of character he says he is gone but he won't be.
He's been lurking here for the last four hours waiting for us to reply to his artistic and original posts. :rolleyes:
If I was an admin, TactiK and all of his posts would be "dissapeared", to deny him the attention he craves.
mil&co February 6th, 2007, 04:56 AM

When discussing explosives and the like, one needs good spelling or else things can get misunderstood (w hich could be fatal when dealing w ith explosives/poisons).
Plus good spelling makes roguesci.org look way more attractive for serious potential members.
As for NBK: Not everyone agrees with him on some points, but this isn't a forum about ethics, and you just simply STFU if the point of disagreement is not related to E&W.
It's as simple as that.
This place is a huge pile of information, and I don't w ant to lose that because I think NBK is w rong in calling a black man a nigger/mud.
Science has no ethics, so why should we care for trivial names w ith an ethical background?

In addition to the excellent points made above, I might point out it all comes down to freedom of association. It just doesn't make sense to complain about any so-called "right
to post" in a private forum. Where do you think you are, anyway? Hot tip: in this forum, he is God. Likewise, if you don't approve of the way things are being run, go take your
contributions somewhere else. Start your own group and run it however you please.
There are plenty of fora for people who can't spell and have nothing to say; I for one, choose not to participate in them. Something for everybody. I'll admit I'm not that happy
about the racism or occasional conspiracist nutjobbery you'll see here, but on balance, the benefits of reading posts outw eigh the drawbacks. As soon as it tips in the opposite
direction, I'll leave. As will the vast majority of worthwhile posters. Gresham's law.

Look w hat happens w hile the Beast sleeps....the prey get brave. :rolleyes:
And tell me, oh Braveheart, what would you have us do, go easy on fools?
I know this isn't your first time here on The Forum, so you must be one of those whom I've given a warning ban to, in the hopes that they'd improve their grammar to
something above the primary-school level.
However, unlike the others who've used this as a learning experience to improve, you've decided to go the 'pissy and offended' route.
I guess I could make up for such generosity on my part by going through the list of those who w ere given temporary bans and making them all retroactively permanent. :)
And w ith 12 pages of examples of stupidty to not follow, you choose to contribute towards page 13. :D
I stumbled on this site while googling for information on bypassing alarm systems.
Ahhh....so having found a website that discusses such things in an open and literate manner, you decide 'Hey, these guys are grammar nazis! I must speak out against this
oppression, and the oppressor!'
What a hypocrite!
You eat of the fruit and then bitch about the tree it came from and the gardener who made it possible by carefully defending it from vermin for 7 years.
Please provide a URL for any other site that discusses what w e discuss, that does so in the semi-literate manner that you seem to prefer, and of equal technical accuracy.
You can't, because minds too sloppy to put together a coherent sentence are too stupid to accomplish anything except w inning a Darwin Award. :p
hatal February 6th, 2007, 11:54 AM

:confused: What a dumbass...

86.20.73.95 : cpc2-cove8-0-0-cust350.sol2.cable.ntl.com
Coventry, England. Not a proxy.
stupid939 February 6th, 2007, 04:57 PM

If any of you have read Orson Scott Card's series of books like Ender's Game, Ender's Shadow (great Sci-Fi books), you will see that they treat the children pretty poorly. Why
do they do this? To make them the best of the best. If you don't teach someone to do something on their ow n, they can't really do anything. Where am I going with this?
I'm sure that most people here have been corrected by NBK a time or tw o. He is trying to help us to be the best that we can be. If you highlight someone's mistakes in front of
everyone else (corrections signed with NBK), the poster will make a vast effort to improve their grammar and w riting styles.
It is not so much the ban (you don't miss out without an account much anyway) as much as how others see you. If he corrects you, and you come up w ith a retarded
comeback like taKtiC, you are viewed by your peers as how you posted, a retard. If you make a mistake and make an effort to change, everyone forgets about the mistake
and listens to what you have to say. You will do more research, pay more attention, and overall educate yourself.
Basically, NBK is trying to make us the best that w e can be, and by doing this he saves our lives from K3wlish mistakes and other things.
So, NBK, thanks for saving my life and making me a smarter, more logical person.
TactiK February 6th, 2007, 06:20 PM

I know this isn't your first time here on The Forum, so you must be one of those whom I've given a warning ban to, in the hopes that they'd improve their grammar to
something above the primary-school level.
Nope.
86.20.73.95 : cpc2-cove8-0-0-cust350.sol2.cable.ntl.com
Coventry, England. Not a proxy.

Wrong again. But aside from being wrong what do you think posting someone's hostname/IP is going to do?
Gonna send out the oh so l33t h4x0rs?
Also, if that's not a proxy then you would be able to check for any other users that use the same IP address, but then once again you would realise that you w here wrong with
your first point I previously quoted.
I am actually surprised I did not get the ban hammer for offending your ego, maybe you have got some balls after all.
I can understand that you don't w ant stupid people blowing there teeth out the back of there head and blaming your forum for it, but w hat doe's that have to do w ith peoples
grammar and spelling?
The internet back in the day w as a place free of criticism, free of race, color, nationality. Free of anything that you w ould get discriminated for in the real world, but now the
internet has spread out to the assholes that cant take not being able to discriminate someone and they have added a new form of discrimination. Some people like to call these
the Grammar/Spelling Nazi's.
It's perfectly fine that you are banning people for being complete retards, or "Kewls" as you like to put it. But the rest is just adding discrimination to a previously discrimination
free realm.
Thanks to the few people that managed to reply w ithout attempting idiotic mockery. I realise that there was slight error of judgement in my first few posts and would like to
apologise to you NBK for the direct attack on you.
To be completely honest I don't even know w hat triggered me into making the original post, some things are just better left unsaid I suppose.
I don't think I should be sticking around here now as I seem to have worked up a few people. Especially Defendu w ith his idiot website, think that up all by yourself did we? I
think he deserves a medal.
edit: Did you also know that this site is blocked through Saudi Arabian proxies?
How's that for freedom of information.

You have spent the last hour and a half typing that reply.
IMHO you are mentally unstable, leave NBK alone and leave this forum alone.
Move on...............

Just the one post for me.
Puppets are bound to whomever holds the strings, me, being without strings, shall leave now.
I don't think I should be sticking around here now as I seem to have worked up a few people.
It's all just one 'final post' after another. :rolleyes:

It's all just one 'final post' after another. :rolleyes:
Thanks for pointing out the pointless.
festergrump February 6th, 2007, 07:15 PM

Reminds me of a certain Monty Python skit about the Spanish Inquisition...
Oh, bugger, TikTac... Just go out and come back in again. And tell Cardinal Fang to fetch the 'comfy chair'.
EDIT: http://w ww.youtube.com/w atch?v=zO68fUMWx3g

Reminds me of a certain Monty Python skit about the Spanish Inquisition...
Oh, bugger, TikTac... Just go out and come back in again. And tell Cardinal Fang to fetch the 'comfy chair'.
Go grab me the damn comfy chair then.
Cant blame a man for wanting to come back and explain himself. A shame we have to deal with these idiot posts in between, aint that right Defendu :D
Bert February 6th, 2007, 07:50 PM

Hmm. wrong clip- try again...

The internet back in the day w as a place free of criticism, free of race, color, nationality. Free of anything that you w ould get discriminated for in the real world, but now the
internet has spread out to the assholes that cant take not being able to discriminate someone and they have added a new form of discrimination.
Stop Intelligence-Based Discrimination (http://www.geocities.com/united_fools/)

"Hmmm... It seems he is made of harder stuff..." :p
It's all three clips, Bert. I just w onder why this is left open, besides it entertainment value, of course.

I've never seen anyone banned for the occasional typo, misplaced apostrophe, or subject-verb disagreement. Hey, it happens to the best of us. But the way I understand it,
"grammar" is basically a shorthand for "lazy, illiterate, and/or unable to put together a coherent thought".
You might have some interesting ideas, but if you can't express them in an intelligible and civilized w ay, you're going to alienate 99% of the worthw hile readers here. Can you
name even one banned poster you think made a real contribution? What did they really have to offer? Good grammar and intelligence go together; that's just the way it is.
"Caring enough to correct typos" and "conducting experiments w ithout blowing your fingers off" are highly correlated too.
***
"It's perfectly fine that you are banning people for being complete retards, or "Kewls" as you like to put it. But the rest is just adding discrimination to a previously discrimination
free realm."
If you have any standards at all, you ALWAYS discriminate between those who live up to them and w ho those w ho don't. I discriminate against thoughtless, lazy, stupid people
all day long--and am proud of it.
If you aren't comfortable with the idea of merit being rewarded and fools paying dearly, this probably isn't the forum for you.

I hold to the ideal of a peer-reviewed scientific journal.
You can ask mega, in order to get a doctorate in a hard science, you have to pass several english literature/grammar courses.
How can you expect to be trusted to build multi-billion dollar projects if you can't put construct a proper sentence? How many scientists are grammatically lazy?
A shifting of a decimal point by one place, to the left or right, dramatically alters the outcome of a reaction. If you can't be bothered to properly construct a sentence, complete
with punctuation and all the rest, how can anyone trust your formulas?
And no, I don't ban people out of hand for criticism of me or policy, since it helps to know what the masses are thinking.
But I DO ban people for personal attacks, like that against Defundu, who's been around a hell of a lot longer than you, and contributed far more than you.
Good bye. :)

Well I was right in my judgement of this character, unfortunately I was wrong in what w ay to get him to respond. I was hoping that he would jump on the small errors in
spelling I purposefully left in my post, he did not :(, but he did make 2 more "last posts" vindicating me. For a little bit I thought he had the self control to at least make me
look like an idiot by proving me wrong.
Nihilist February 7th, 2007, 01:51 PM

Go grab me the damn comfy chair then.
Cant blame a man for wanting to come back and explain himself. A shame we have to deal with these idiot posts in between, aint that right Defendu :D
Where are you going w ith this, and precisely w hat are you trying to prove? Even if NBK w as wrong to ban you initially, you've certainly proven him right by coming back, crying
like a little bitch, and lashing out at the entire forum. You don't have a logical leg to stand on here, every aspect of your stupid little soap box is wrong.

It's all just one 'final post' after another
Isn't it alw ays?
The thing I find funny is that for some reason he never really looked back at some of the things in the past that prove just exactly why we need to be harsh on grammar. So, to
save our friend some time and effort, I'll bring up the first one that comes to mind, by NBK.
We don't need anyone so badly that we'll grant exceptions to the basic rules of literacy and grammer. Anyone w ho spends ANY time reading here should notice a serious lack of
IRC/IM style postings, with the typical 3LL3t3 spelling and lack of basic sentence structure.
To demonstrate, tell me w hich is which:
CO
CO
CO
One is is an element, and two are gases, but which is which? One lacks proper capitalization, and another a subset 2.
...
Now do you see the importance of proper grammer skills?
And be grateful it w asn't a formula you were following that ended up exploding in your face, resulting in two stumps were you used to have hands, and a face full of acid.
'course, now there's no purpose, since the imbecile made a personal attack against another forum member...

Oh for gods sake, give it a rest fool! You are one of the reasons the Internet is becoming a cesspool: you are a self aggrandizing egomaniac who thinks he know s all the
answers to life's problems and feels compelled to share with us all why you know better, and anyone who disagrees with you is obviously stupid.
Well, have I got news for you. Once I submit this I will promptly forget you ever existed because that's how much of an impression you have left on me. You think you are the
first person to complain about the rules? If you don't like it I kindly invite you to go away.
Would you come into someones home, eat their food, sleep in their bed, wear their cloths, and then have the gall to complain about their rules not allowing trespassers?
I could really care less what you think about my rules because they w ork. If they didn't, I would change them. You have accomplished nothing in your little pathetic tirade. To
think you w asted your time trolling around here just to express your derision at a rule for a forum you never intend to visit again... Get a life pal, you have a serious
psychological problem or a crippling Internet addiction.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Australian Politics
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tweak February 6th, 2007, 09:06 PM

If any Aussie m e m b e rs are interested in the political scene, then this will be the place to post news and developm ents.
The NSW state election is less than 8 weeks away and the political mud throwing has already begun.
In the blue corner we have the challenger.
http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Debnam
http://www.debnam record.com / u n h i n g e d . p h p
In the red co rner we have the replacem ent prem ier.
http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Iem m a
I f a n y b o d y f i n d s a s i t e t a k i n g t h e p i s s o u t o f h i m , P O ST IT!
Another interesting piece of news is this:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitem s / 2 0 0 7 0 2 / s 1 8 4 1 9 5 9 . h t m
O n e d a y i n t o the 2007 federal election campaign and we get that. :rolleyes:
Anyhow, the NSW election is going to get nasty, sit back and enjoy the show!

I saw it on the "news" tonight. Looks like even the media is in on the promotion. They started the segment off with all the
different cards it would take the place off in a jum bled messy pile (as if anyone would have all those cards. If you d id, you
would be a retarded, wheelchair bound, pregnant, veitnam vet who gets social security but can affo r d m e d i c a r e a n d g o e s t o
school (prim ary, secondary an d tertiary)) then they showed the new card all by itself, all nice and shiny with a sm art card gold
square in it.
Ofcourse, the sm art card is to protect against identity fraud.....as will be the biom etrics contained there....as well as the
RFID....+satellite tracking and you have the new national ID.
S e e m s there are som e politicians that are objecting to it because it could potentially becom e a new nat. ID card, but the
opposition is doing an absolutely pathetic job in opposing it.
*lau ghs bitterly* This brings to mind a story that NBK (IIRC ) posted that had to do with a man falsly accused of a crim e a n d
the froze all his accounts (link ed to his Nat. ID card) and he couldn't buy food for his fam ily (no cash anymore, its illegal) and
due to food rationing he couldn't scrou nge it from friends and fa mily. The person he would need to talk to about ge tting his
n a m e cleared was on holiday and wouldn't be back for weeks.
Ended up killing him self and his fam ily.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > U K Bom b i n g s
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tweak February 7th, 2007, 04:39 PM

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitem s / 2 0 0 7 0 2 / s 1 8 4 2 6 6 9 . h t m
Does anybody want to speculate as to what is going on here?
A device in a parcel could well be anything, but a letter..?
Chopper February 7th, 2007, 06:59 PM

Not quite sure what you mean by "speculate as to what is going on here", there's been a num ber of these recently, as the
article you linked to mentions. The BBC website goes into rather m ore detail that the ABCs sum m ary. It's (I believe) clearly a
pissed off motorist, who has probably been pinged for travelling a sm all num ber of m iles over the limit, or just som e total nut-
job, as tends to be the case with those that m ail explosive devices.
As to what it could have been in the letter, absolutely anything. I've seen a video with a business-letter sized envelope
containing enough detsheet I think it was, to decapitate a dumm y sittting at the desk and severly trash a pc m onitor in the
im m ediate vicinity.
Clearly, these attacks weren't as severe as the example I saw but, nonetheless to make a device such as these is really a
trivial affair. The reason they have worked thus far can be put entirely down to the human factor. As you state, a pa rcel could
be well, anything. This is precisely the subconcious assumption that has injured these poo r people. "It's only a lette r, there's
b e e n n o a n t h r a x h o a x e s f o r a ges, surely, there's nothing untoward contained within."
W ith the injuries being unspecified as far as I can tell, it could have been any num ber of different nasties and initiating
system s within said envelope. Although the me ntion of the patient being stable a nd havin g non life-threatening injuries does
l e a d m e to suspect that there were hig h - e x p l o s i v e s o f o n e t y p e o r a n o t h e r i n v o l v e d .
Look at the plastic party-popp ers, they're just a piece of string wrapped up with a chlorate based com p in som e paper. Pull the
strin g and presto! Sim ilarly, lo ok at the cardboard strip assem bly inside christm a s b o n - b o n s . T h e y ' r e p a c k e d 'full' of silver
fulm i n a t e g o o d n e s s . T h e s e a r e b o t h v e r y s l i m , unobtrusive objects.
Sim ilarly uno btrusive are the m yriad of differen t silver-oxide/lithium batteries that are available now. These com e in very sm all
p a c k a g e s . W atch lights will operate at a yellowish to white heat from a source of just 1.5v, at very little current.
You may recall an incident a while ago where a plane was bom b e d s o m ewhere in the vicinity of the Phillipines. In this particu lar
incident, it is believed the main charge was Nitroglycerin e. This was sm u g g l e d o n - b o a r d i n s i d e a s a l i n e - s o l u t i o n b o t t l e d e s i g n e d
to hold the fluid used to clean se contact lenses. In this case, the detonator was a specially modified Casio wristwatch. A watch
that it would appear, for all intensive p urposes, was a normal, functioning watch (though who knows which p arts of the story
m a y h a v e b e e n d r u m med up to solicit fear am ongst the m a s s e s )
In any case, all the initiator of a deton ator has to do is initiate a prim ary explosive via heat or mechanical shock/im pact/
friction. Anyo n e o f t h e t h i n g s I h a v e m entioned would be capable of providing a sufficient im pulse to several different types of
e x p l o s i v e . L o o k a t t h e s t u f f u s e d b y t h e s u i c i d e s h i t - h e a d s i n P a l e s t i n e a n d I s r a e l, nothing exotic - just ple nty of it. 1 gram of
anything detonating in your hands is the start to a very bad day.
The hard part is being screwy enough to have actually carried ou t such a revenge fantasy. Or in the case of those le ss
pysiologically lucky as som e o f us, the hard part would be avoiding retribution on a daily basis aga i n s t t h o s e d e e m e d t o h a v e
deserved it.
It would be equally pointless, though in my mind far m ore understandable if the idiot just went back and blew up the camera
that captured the im age used to issue the fine in the first place. I m ean, for christ's sake - they're just som e p o o r f u c k e r s
doin g a job in paperwork. They've got no discression to excercise. They can't decide not to issue a fine like a parking inspector
can. The fine's been issued already, it sim ply needs processing. W hether they do the job or som e b o d y e l s e d o e s , i t ' s a f t e r a n d
seperate to the act of issuing the fine in the first place.
I k n o w o f a c o m b o s p e e d / r e d - l i g h t c a m e r a i n m y area that has been both broken with rocks and targetted with a sh ot-gun.
Frightening to think we share the roads with these fuckers, but m o r e u n d e r s t a n d a ble than mailing a letter-bom b to the fines
office. If you weren't such a shit driver in the first place you wouldn't have been pinged. I've been driving for in excess of 10
years and can't think of the la st time in about 5 years that I drove at less than a substantial m argin over the prescribed spe e d
limit. Every d ay I could have lost m y licence or had it cancelled. I've got one traffic infringem ent on m y record. Even had a
laug h about it with the issuing officer - well hey, I was going to be walking/taking the bus for 6 months, I m ay as well have a
bit of a laugh before it really hit home and I really lost m y s e n s e o f h u m our over it. Besides, 1 fine in all that tim e - it was
funny. Especially as com pared to the p eople that drive slower, and drive less often.
All I can say, is that I hope (if/when) they catch the fucker and that s/he ends up in a prison that just so happens to house the
spouse of one of the people injured in the spree. Now, THAT would be justice. Just the type of justice this fuck-up seem s to
believe in, apparently.
W ell that's m y 2c or $2 worth anyway.

W h e n t h e g o vernm ent is corrupt and o ppressive, there's no such thing as an 'innocent' flu nky of the State. Were the
functionaries of the gulags of the USSR 'innocent'? How 'bout the guards of the Nazi camps?
Even the lowly county clerk who processes the paperwork that deprives a m an of his property at the behest of the corrupt courts
isn't an 'inno cent', bu t a vital (if anonymous) cog of the State.
And cogs of oppressive m achines get SMASHED!
Chopper February 9th, 2007, 09:53 AM

I was going to post this last night, but in my state of tiredness thought it prudent to re-read and reconsider it after sleeping.
Of course that m a k e s m e twice as m uch of a ja ck-ass if m y a r g u m e n t i s f u n d a m entally flawed - I accept that.
Fair point with regards to officers of the USSR g u l a g s a n d nazi camp officers.
Absolutely, a person helping a corrupt and oppressive g ovt perform their dirty work is not just an 'innocent' doing their 9-5.
They're just doing the dirty wo rk in the safety o f their crappy little cubicles, rather than on the front-line, as it were. They're
cowards and dirty-fuckers..
H O W EVER,
It's not as th ough a terribly large number of people would argue that the re should be no penalty for travelling at do uble the
s p e e d l i m it, or even 20km h over it. Th e m a s s e s just seem to get shitty at penalties being doled out over a trivial num b e r o f
k m h / mph above it. Understandable, but over is over. Nothing is nothing however, a bit always be com e s a b i t m o r e .
I apporached this issue from the perspective that speed-lim its h ave long been in effect. T h i s h a s n o t b e e n d e b a t e d nor
disputed. W hat I percieve as being the rub in the UK, as has been the case here in Aus, is that with advances in technology,
we're being 'blessed' with the chance to enforce theses speed-limits more and m ore, and in places where the monitoring of our
adherence to them is no longer as obvious as it was in the days of a cop sitting o n the side of the road with a radar-gun
hanging out the window.
I h a v e p r e s u m ed, although quite wrongly adm ittedly, th at the individual is of the group that believe it is un r e a s o n a b l e t o b e
f i n e d f o r e x c e e d i n g t h e s p e e d lim it by an often trivial am ount.
For a long, long tim e here it was known that there was a tolerance of 10% of the speed limit. In a 60 you could do 66 and be
fine; 110 in a 100 was sim ilarly an 'oversight' which m a y b e d i s r e g a r d e d .
Now however, we no longer have percentage-based tolerances. We have a blanke t system of 3km over = chance of being
booked. There is no longer any tolerance. After the 2km / h i s s u b t r a c t e d f r o m t h e d e t e c t e d s p e e d , o n e m ay expect a fine if the
resu ltant number is e qual to or m o r e t h a n 1 k m h over the lim it.
There was an outcry over this, of course. Understandable, though not particularly valid, imho. Around the sam e tim e , t h e
s p e e d c a m era duties were sub-contracted out to a third party, Tennex (sp?).
Although having a 10% margin had the effect of giving us a de-facto law that said you m ust not travel at m o r e t h a n 1 0 %
a b o v e t h e s p e e d l i m it, the law was and still is that you m ust not exceed the prescribed lim it. This has not changed. What ha s,
a s I m e n t i o n ed, is the ability to reliably detect the spee d of a vehicle. La ser-based radar guns are certifiably accurate to within
2 k m /h, whereas radar-based system s were often no better than the 10%.
Don't get m e wrong, I think a fine for doing 103 in a 10 0 should be far sm aller than that imposed for trave lling 43 in a 40. Yet
without a blanket margin, the system is not necessarily wrong - it's just more ope n t o a b u s e .
S a y i n g s o m e thing offensive/indecent in a public place is no m ore illegal if there's a 1000 people that hear it than if only 3
people hear it. It has m ore im pact, certainly. But in both cases, indecent/offensive langua g e h a s b e e n u s e d . I ' m o f a s i m i l a r
m ind with regards to speeding.
Gerbil February 9th, 2007, 08:06 PM

Apparently, the parcels had th e n a m e s o f p r o m inent animal-rights activists on them :rolleyes: . But then again, why would the
DVLA be a ta rget for animal rights? It's always possible that som eone's trying to give a false lead.
I t s e e m s t h a t the only real link between the targets is that they're governm ent-linked institutions. Someone with a grudge?
Personally, I think that's it's p robably som e nutcase with a tub o f sodium chlorate and too m uch spare tim e.
Btw, nbk, just out of interest, what wou ld be your idea of a perfect society?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Sulfuric acid from nitric
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sprocket February 8th, 2007, 05:55 PM

No, you didn't misread the topic, nor did I get it wrong. W hile m ost people have trouble obtaining nitric acid m y problem is
quite the opposite, which is why I'm looking for a way to m ake sulfuric acid from nitric acid . The nitric acid I have is 53% (w/w)
technical grade.
I've thought about it for a while, but I see no solution to the pro blem . Am I wasting my tim e h e r e ?

You'd have to switch out the n itrogen from HNO 3 with sulphur. Oh, and add anoth er hydrogen and oxygen. :rolleyes:
I t ' s b e e n d i s c u s s e d b e f o r e , a n d s o , n o , you can't turn nitric into sulphuric.
W hat you can do is pass a stream of sulphur dioxide gas into a solution of hydrogen pero xide as it has an electric current
passed through it. Th is forms a weak solution of sulphu ric acid.
Once you have a solution of sulphuric acid, you sim ply boil off the water to get a concentrated solu tion. :)
Or just drain old car batteries and boil it down until white fum es com e off it. I'm a ssum ing your country has cars? :p
sprocket February 8th, 2007, 07:02 PM

Or just drain old car batteries and boil it down until white fum es com e off it. I'm a ssum ing your country has cars? :pO f course,
but also too effective waste m a n a g e m e n t . Y o u r a r e l y s e e u s e d c a r b a t t e r i e s l y i n g a r o u n d . B e s i d e s t h o s e b a t t e r i e s a r e d a m n
heavy and a pain to collect wh en you don't have a car yourself. It's like they're full of lead ! :rolleyes:
So far I've been using battery acid as m y source of sulfuric acid though.
I guess I'll just keep collecting car batteries and use the nitric acid for m aking lead nitrate from the electrodes inste ad. Now
there's a useful salt. :)
Alexires February 8th, 2007, 11:08 PM

J u s t a q u i c k n o t e , r e m e m ber to recharge the batteries first before you empty them .
Also, there are multiple threads around about burning sulfur, passing it through water (m a y b e H 2 O 2) to eventually form
H2SO 4
akinrog February 9th, 2007, 02:01 AM

I've thought about it for a while, but I see no solution to the pro blem . Am I wasting my tim e h e r e ?
On google, type Sulfuric Acid, Lead Cham bers and read all m ate rial that com e u p . R e g a r d s .
sprocket February 9th, 2007, 06:22 AM

Had I been living in a m ore remote location I probably would have set up a sm all scale production using the contact process,
or at least tried. It would be a nice way to put my chem ical engineering e ducation to the test. It is m y unde rstanding that this
process is quite hard to im plem e n t o n a s m a l l s c a l e . H a s a n y o n e h e r e m a n a g e d t o g e t a w o r k i n g s e t u p ?
However, I live in a city and without a fumehood burning sulfur is out of the question. It m akes your clothes stink for days.
Oh, how I wish our drain clean ers were sulfuric acid and not sodium hydroxide...
('Ou r' being sweden. NBK)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Inside ATM's
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houdini February 9th, 2007, 08:55 AM

Hi, first post.. wasn't sure where it should go, but decided here was safest!
Just wondering if anyone had any knowledge on the internals of autom atic teller m a c h i n e s . . . f o r e x a m p l e a r e t h e c a s h b o x e s
g e n e r a l l y k e p t i n a s a f e b e h i n d the fro nt access door, or simply slotted in?

First trick, Houdini, is to learn that while inform ation is given freely here at RS, it is frowned upon severely for a newcom er to
ask for anything without first providing something credible to discussions already underway or bringing some nice ch u n k s o f
new info to light.
Newbies often find them selves in the belly of the Beast (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=5150) for a
"spoonfeeding request" such as yours...
I'm very surprised that after a few m onths here this fact evaded you. It is a very importan t one which helps keep your survival
rate much higher.

Hi, first post.. wasn't sure where it should go, but decided here was safest!
Just wondering if anyone had any knowledge on the internals of autom atic teller m a c h i n e s . . . f o r e x a m p l e a r e t h e c a s h b o x e s
g e n e r a l l y k e p t i n a s a f e b e h i n d the fro nt access door, or simply slotted in?
The answer is, nobody quite k nows, although a few guys over at TOTSE would be eager to quote parts of th e Anarch ist
Cookbook which were outdated and full of crap back in 1960.
Grab a crowbar and tell us what's inside.

I know, but I'm not going to share with som e o n e w h o o b v i o u s l y h a s m a d e ZERO effort of their own towards finding out, and
expect others to just give it up on request.
Show us that you've made an effort yo urself and you'll get som e help.
Gm od helps those wh o h e l p t h e m s e l v e s . ; )

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Interesting use of explosives
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Match February 9th, 2007, 08:02 PM

I wonder how m uch they used for this.
http://poststuff5.entensity.net/020907/m e d i a . p h p ? m e d i a = d y n a m itesurf.wmv

I'm calling bogus.
How to do it:
Vide o dude swim ming out and other dude throwing smo king 'dynam ite'.
Either m erge in stock footage of underwater explosion, or actual explosion of pre-placed charge of m uch larger size than three
sticks.
Use the all-white zoom -in of water plum e as cut point for m erging shot of dude surfing in the tidal surge where river m e e t s
ocean.
There's no fucking way 3 sticks of anything would produce a surge of water like th at.
Also, how would surfer dude in the water avoid organ pu lverizing from shockwave from blast so close? Floating on th e b o a r d ?
I suppose this was done as a professionally arranged stunt, but as is im plied by the way it was shot, there's no way some
punks could have pulled it off as a jack-ass stunt.
NGfan February 9th, 2007, 08:58 PM

Fuck m e.
They may be kewls, but hot piss, that was ama zing. I wonder if it's actua lly real... The ad for quick silver at the end suggests
otherwise and it does seem a little questionable. Still cool though.

It's an ad, so I don't really care. Anyth ing created for th e express purpose of conning suckers into buying product is inherently
false.

I have seen that vide o in slightly higher resolution a few days ago. To me, clearly it isn't real. I see computer generated fog /
s m o ke when he throws the "dynam ite" into the water, and that mist is mostly com puter generated. Also they try to m a k e t h e
v i d e o l o o k " h a n d h e l d " y e t t h e y h a v e s o m e v e r y f l u i d a n d p r e c i s e c a m e r a m o v e m ents in the later part of the m ovie with very
little s h a k e , a n d n o p an "lag" from those digital anti shake devices in m odern cam corders. IIRC this was som e com pany's viral
m arketing campaign.

I got the im pression it was an ad for an advertising age ncy...something to show perspective clients so they can see how 'hip'
the agency's ads are.

I got an inkling right off the bat when I saw three sticks of unknown explosive m aterial, then I saw broad daylight near a
populated area. The guy would have had a welcome wagon of pigs to greet him when he got out of the water.
However, it was a funny concept. :D
Guerilla February 10th, 2007, 09:05 AM

The first thing I paid attention to was the funny way the plain fuse separates in each of the "dynamite" sticks :P Nonetheless it
isn't the worst kind of editing I've ever seen, the average joe m ight even buy it.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Am ateur Local W eather Control
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This is a far-fetched thread, hence the W ater C ooler.
W e're here to discuss the possibility th at a ressourceful individual could potentially alter his neighb orhood's weather through
OTC m eans.
I've consulted the great wikipedia on this, since I have found that it hasn't been talked about here aside from the conspiracy
theories.
T h e r e a r e b a sically two options.
1.Cloud seeding
2.Electromag netic em ittors.
Obviously, the first choice is the best for the amateur, as the second is p otentially bogus and/or requires m illions of dollars
a n d a H A A R P type installation.
C l o u d s e e d i n g i s t h e a r t o f m aking a cloud precipitate water or ice. Basically, it's as simple as dumping silver iodide, liquid
m ethane or dry ice in a cloud in significant quantities.
How could an am ateu r do that? Rockets! He could use a hom e m ade high-powered chem ical(KNO 3/Sucrose) rocket to get to low
clouds. These rockets have reportedly reached altitudes of over 5000 feet. This is going to be a pretty large rocket, so he
could just replace the parachute with a substantial quantity of se eding agent and let the ejection charge do its job.
A se cond way would b e (don't laugh) balloons. Helium or hydrogen filled balloons can go a long way, about 5000 feet too.
Surplus weather balloons are even better. The hypothetical clim ate controller would just have to rig up an electronic altimeter to
a payload ejection charge. W eather ba lloons are probably much more reliable than rockets, but they are governed solely by
the wind, the refore th ey're harder to aim.
I t w o u l d a l s o b e p o s s i b l e t o r i g a k i l o o f s m o k e bom b m ixture to a parachute and the rocket it to a m e d i u m altitude, creating

an artificial cloud and blanketing the neighboorhood in shadow. Exam ple k3wl ground-lit d evice (http://www.guzer.com/video s/
h u g e _ s m o k e _bom b.php) that would certainly be visible at a 1km altitude. For the larger (2 to 10 KG range) sm oke devices, it
would be better to use a few weather b a l l o o n s .
I have also heard tidbits about laser induced lightning, but I can't really find any other info than the nam e .
T h o u g h t s ? I d e a s f o r e x p e r i m ental wea ther catalysts?
Michelangelo February 10th, 2007, 12:23 AM

Rocket triggered lightning is well estab lished, where a large rocket with a spool of reinforced wire is (rem otely!) fired into the
belly of a ripe cumulonim bus. The wire provides the con ductive path for a downstroke.
There's bound to be decent writeups in the "m ethods" section of relevant articles in academ ic journals. If I rem ember properly,
t h e C R C has a few references to this in the Atm ospheric chapter, but m y copy's at the office.
metallicash February 10th, 2007, 06:57 AM

Laser induced lightning is where a lase r ionizes the air, m aking it conductive for the lightning to travel down.
This is being attem pted for a 'non leth al' weapon, where a powerful laser is aim e d a t a p e r s o n , i o n izing the air, sending a high
voltage through it and shocking that person.

Laser induced lightning is where a lase r ionizes the air, m aking it conductive for the lightning to travel down.
This is being attem pted for a 'non leth al' weapon, where a powerful laser is aim e d a t a p e r s o n , i o n izing the air, sending a high
voltage through it and shocking that person.
I knew about wireless tazers. Any kind of lightn ing gun rocks.
Ionizing a few kilome ters long narrow beam of air is probably way harder. The lightning would also without a doubt arc back to
the origin point of the lazer...

It's spelt TASER, not TAZER.
S a m e goes for laser.
And people wonder why they can't find any results doing a search...because people don't use the proper wo rds for things.
A helikite holding a wire up in a thunderhead is likely to call down the lightning, but to what purpose?
A n d c l o u d s e e d i n g o n ly works when it's almost going to rain anyways. If you have clear and sunny skies, there's not a damn
thing you can do about it.

Hm m m .
An interesting idea, if a TAD k ewl.
I think the laser idea is bogus. You probably could work out how m uch energy it would require to ionise that m uch air, but I
wouldn't bother. An idea (involving laser) that is slightly m ore possible would be to set up a kind of mirror/am plifier at the
target. Then the idea would be to wait until a thunderstorm was approaching and point m ultiple lasers at it. Using constructive
interference, you could possibly increase its power by a factor of 20 (depending on how m any lasers you can afford to point at
it). The mirror/am plifier then aims the now powerful beam into the sky hopefully calling down a lightning strike.
You must be dreaming if you want to use KNO 3/Sugar rockets to deliver a payload even rem otely capable of changing weather.
Personally, I think you have a better chance doing a rain dance.
Your balloon idea is better, but still, th e s h e e r a m ount required to do what you want would be astronom ical.
H e r e i s a n i d e a . W e h a v e a l l s e e n f o o t a g e o f m a s s i v e e x p l o s i o n s going off. In them t h e r e i s a s p h e r e o f e x p a n d i n g

precipitated water caused by local overpressure (I'm assuming).
W hy not get a fairly large charge (read 50kg+) and loft it into th e sky with hydrogen balloons (add s to the bang and the water)
into the middle of heavy cloud. W hen the charge goes off, there m ay be a possibility that the over-pressure causes the water
to precipitate, but then it falls instead of being re-absorbed into the air.
Do some research into these electrom agnetic weather altering devices Frunk. The m ore we know, the more we m i g h t b e a b l e t o
use it.
If it is som ething like a certain spectru m of EM radiation causing p r e c i p i t a t i o n o f s o m e t h i n g , t h e n m a y b e a k i n d o f m u l t i -

source-constructive-interference device like the lasers above might work.
Finally, an expansion on Michelangelo's idea of rocket-wire. Instead of firing it into the clo ud (think big thrust and visibility
from below) fly a weather balloon above the cloud with the spool already in the basket. Then just drop the coiled en d and let it
unroll to the ground. A lightning strike then ma y/m a y n o t h a p p e n, but at least yo u don't need to give away your position.
Zajcek February 11th, 2007, 07:15 AM

I saw a docum entary couple of years a go about scientists dropping som e h u n d r e d k i l o g r a m s o f s u p e r a b s o r b e n t p o l y m e r i n t o a
m assive clou d form ation.
It said that the cloud sim ply d i s a p p e a r e d .
M a y b e y o u c o u l d d o t h e s a m e thing with the weather ba l l o o n a n d d i s p e r s i n g s u p e r absorbent m aterial with an explo sive device.
I f o u n d a s i m ilar article som ewhere on the net, but I do not know how much of this is true.
http://www.anom alies-unlim ited.com /C hemtrails/Dyn-O-Gel.html
One of the conspiracy theories suggests that Serbian scientist and inventor Nikola Tesla could control the weather with so called
" s c a l a r w e a p o n s " b a s e d o n e l e c t r o m a g netism a n d r e s o n a n c e .
It is interesting what can we find with searching the net.

Not sure for this one either:
http://www.failedsuccess.com / i n d e x . p h p?/weblog/m ore/arch_weather_story

An interesting idea, if a TAD k ewl.
You must be dreaming if you want to use KNO 3/Sugar rockets to deliver a payload even rem otely capable of changing weather.
Personally, I think you have a better chance doing a rain dance.
Your balloon idea is better, but still, th e s h e e r a m ount required to do what you want would be astronom ical
This idea is very theo retical, b ut hey, isn't this entire forum supposed to be about *dream ing* to m ake stuff ? :D
The rocket idea is very improbable but using weather balloons is definately doable. These can have 2 kg of lift each. There are
a few reported cases of lawnchair/cluster of weather baloons flying m achines. You can buy some 5' balloons right here (https://
secure.scientificsales.com /weather/Details.cfm ?ProdID=129&category=18) for 30 bucks each.
H e r e i s a n i d e a . W e h a v e a l l s e e n f o o t a g e o f m a s s i v e e x p l o s i o n s going off. In them t h e r e i s a s p h e r e o f e x p a n d i n g

precipitated water caused by local overpressure (I'm assuming).
W hy not get a fairly large charge (read 50kg+) and loft it into th e sky with hydrogen balloons (add s to the bang and the water)
into the middle of heavy cloud. W hen the charge goes off, there m ay be a possibility that the over-pressure causes the water
to precipitate, but then it falls instead of being re-absorbed into the air.
Any kind of explosion in the a ir would probably be a fart in the wind, pun intended. If I'm g o i n g t o b u y e n o u g h b a l l o o n s t o l i f t
a 50 kg barrel of ANFO , I m ight as well m a k e a flying m achine o r use half that weight of d ry ice.
Do some research into these electrom agnetic weather altering devices Frunk. The m ore we know, the more we m i g h t b e a b l e t o
use it.
If it is som ething like a certain spectru m of EM radiation causing p r e c i p i t a t i o n o f s o m e t h i n g , t h e n m a y b e a k i n d o f m u l t i -

source-constructive-interference device like the lasers above might work.
No, it's sim ply a brute force m e t h o d o f p u m ping EM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAAR P#HAARP_controversy) into the
atmosphere. Basically, fire a beam of energy at the ionosphere, predict the reflection trajectory and you could boil water in the
ocean, causing a clou d to form .
Finally, an expansion on Michelangelo's idea of rocket-wire. Instead of firing it into the clo ud (think big thrust and visibility
from below) fly a weather balloon above the cloud with the spool already in the basket. Then just drop the coiled en d and let it
unroll to the ground. A lightning strike then ma y/m a y n o t h a p p e n, but at least yo u don't need to give away your position.
S e e m s doable, there's no reason why it wouldn't work. I think we've pretty m uch established that weather b a l o o n s a re the way
to go. Building a rocket that goes 10 0 00 ft. takes lots of m oney while a weather balloon costs 30$ and lifts 2 kg.
Gerbil February 11th, 2007, 03:39 PM

For cloud seeding, a m ore reliable m ethod would be to disperse your com pound of choice directly into the cloud from a light
aircraft (if you're lucky enough to own one). Ob viously, this wouldn't be a pplicable if you wanted any kind of stealth, or to
r e m a i n a n o n y m ous...although you would have a m e t h o d o f e s c a p e , d e p e n d i n g o n t h e s i t u a t i o n .
A KNO3/sucrose rocket wouldn 't be able to carry any rea l weight, even if you m a n a g e d t o b u i l d o n e capable of reach ing clouds.

If you plan to seed cloud with smoke bomb or whatever you had in m ind...don't use KNO3 . Use KC lO3 or KClO4 instead...it was
reported in the early days of rocketry that rocket based on that oxidant leave visible trail of water vapour. And having in m in d
that Israelis use KCl as substance for cloud seeding instead of AgI...sounds like we can't m iss with that.
And I like ba l o o n i d e a . C h e a p and sim ple.
Michelangelo February 13th, 2007, 11:29 PM

W ith respect to inducing lightning strikes, the references in this paper look prom i s i n g ( t h o u g h i t d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o b e c h e a p
and sim ple):
W illet, et al., 1999, An Experim ental Study of P ositive Leaders Initiating Rocket-T riggered Lightning, Atm ospheric Research, v
51, pp. 189-219
http://www.atmo.arizona.edu/students/courselinks/spring05/atm o589/articles/Willett_et_al_RTL_Atm os_Res_July_19 9 9 . p d f

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > The perfect book scanner
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Corona February 10th, 2007, 02:22 PM

http://www.plustek.com /product/book3 6 0 0 . a s p
http://www.plustek.com /product/book3 600_feature.asp
Made specially for scanning books, no matter how thick or how tightly bound. And it scans fast too.
I just found it worth sharing.

I decided a few m o n t h s a g o t o b u y o n e o f t h o s e . I a l m ost snagged one off of ebay, but I decided to wait u ntil closer to the
s u m mer. I have a few textbooks and ref materials I want to scan as good as possible. My old scanner has gone tits up, so it's
tim e f o r a n u p g r a d e .
In case you are wondering what the difference between the 3600 (basic), the plus, and the corpora te are... just the price :)
Technically the plus a nd corpo rate com es with a PDF creator (not the real Acrobat) and ReadIris (an OCR prog), but why pay for
software when its all free as warez?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > storing HMTD
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209 February 10th, 2007, 11:27 PM

I realize this may be breaking the law about newbies on this forum , but please, let it slide just once. I really need any advice
on the utm ost SAFE m ethod of storing HMTD, I usually use it right away but I nee d to store some until next week, please, what
is th e safest way I can go abo ut storing it? O ther that storing underwater. Any advice appreciated.

Store it unde rwater. :p
fiknet February 11th, 2007, 04:36 AM

Store it unde r Acetone? Then when you want to use it evaporate the solvent until its dry. However this m ight alter the crystal
structure for better or worse, you m ight wan't to try it with a smaller batch first.
Chopper February 11th, 2007, 09:43 AM

Just make sure it's very pure and keep away from sources of potential ig nition. I often wash a 70g m batch with about 20 litres
of water, in 10 2liter runs. I never neutralize with bicarb or anything else basic. Just water to rewm ove traces of the acid. Since
adopting this m ethod , the shelf life ha s increased am azingly. HMTD does not like basic conditions. I've got about 4-5 gms left
in the m othe r liquor. This has evaporated over time and is now strongly acidic. A quick wash and dry, and the material is fine.
Stored with b icarb at even 1/2 the concentration leads to rapid degradation.
I ' v e h a d s a m ple stored dry in open air and in plastic bags for over a year. If it fucks up between now and n ext week, then to
be perfectly honest, you probably deserve it an d should find a m o r e p e d e s t r i a n h o b b y .
I t ' s a l s o n o t a h u g e f a n o f e l e vated tem ps. At 70 deg C and over it starts to get a bit shitty.
R e m ember, research, research, research. Com pare notes from different sources, cull those who can't string 2 words together or
w h o s e h u g e d e p a r t u r e f r o m t h e g e n e r a l l y d e s c r i b e d e x p e r i e n c e c a n n o t b e e x p l a i n e d b y r e a s o n , t h e n r e s e a r c h s o m e m ore. Not
that I really care - they're not my fingers/eyes that are at stake here. It's going to be you r problem if it fucks up, so it's you r
resp onsibility to prevent it.
I won't m ention what with, but I've had sam p l e s o f t h e c o m p o u n d plasticized for in excess of six m onths. It's the same for all
intensive purposes as it was the day it was plasticized. Sam e colour, m aleability, and mechanical p roperties. Sensitivity is
e f f e c t e d i m m easurably as is power. W ith explosives, as long as you use your head, you'll probably get to keep it attached to
your shoulde rs. They ARE NO T s o m ething to be trifled with. Nor are they for kids.
Stay Safe.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > what would do with if you found
these
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1. 500g of fine antimony powder (is it any good for a fu el in flash or is better put to use in a conversion to som e t h i n g e l s e e . g .
antim ony trisulphide etc.)
2. Selenium 100g (I do have fine zinc powder, these two are listed as incompatible and can ignite and or explode below a
critical paritcal size in the form ation of zinc selenide)
3. Thorium n itrate (I dont pla n on using it for anything just found som e tucked a way in a cubby hole)
Assume use of any other chemicals as I have a fair bit of stuff
atlas#11 February 11th, 2007, 09:03 PM

Antim ony is a good reducing agent for many applications.
Sele nium is good for killing alien lifefo rm s with ten base pairs in their DNA... Hold on to it, they're com ing.
Thorium nitrate (or thorium in general) is fanta stic at fu cking with the EPA, try firing neutrons at it and leaving it somewhere
people are likely to have giger-counters.
I'd recom mend you search for applications for the com pounds either on this site or a good chem istry experim ent site. I
haven't heard of m any good uses for either thorium or selenium , but I'm sure there are p lenty.

Sele nium - b a s e d O P A a g e n t s a r e a t h i r d a g a i n m ore tox ic than com parab le sulfur-based C W agents, so you can always use it
for that. :p
Actually, reacting it with acids to m a k e H y d r o g e n S e l e n i d e w o u l d b e a g r e at stink bom b, as well as quite toxic.
Antim ony is good for im pact-sensitive explosives and prim ers.
Thorium salts, reduced on a p umice or ceram ic support media, is used as a catalyst for production of P2P (m eth precursor) in a
tube furnace.
Or m ake your own ga s light m antles. ;)
Atra February 13th, 2007, 07:20 PM

I f y o u c a n m a k e s e l e n i u m c h l o r i d e i t c r e a t e s a d e e p b l u e f l a m e when thrown in a fire even at low tem peratures, unlike copper
chloride and copper carbonate d which seem to have a m ore green color unless heated to very high temps in either a
pyro technic device or with som e sort of blow torch.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Looking for a book review on "Boom -- Homemade Explosives"
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mrtnira February 14th, 2007, 02:20 AM

I am looking for a book review on "Boom - Homemade Explosives: Formulas and Techniques".
It was published in 1976, by Paul Miller.
If you have this one and can write a quick review of the data, please do.
I'm a historian by training, and right now I'm going back through recent history to try to capture data from the 1960s and 1970s. Your help by providing an overview of the
document, if you have it, will be gratefully received.
My efforts really are for academic purposes only.
Charlie Workman February 16th, 2007, 02:44 AM

Wow, deja vu! I haven't read that book in years. I've got a copy somewhere I'll try to dig up if no one else has their's handy. I seem to remember it being a fairly straitforward
book, concentrating mostly on low explosives and flashpowder. Unfortunately, the only distinct memory is of the only photo it had, of Paul Miller proudly holding a large
"firecracker" he made, and was subsequently arrested for setting off. Got off with a warning. Ah, the good old days!
mrtnira February 16th, 2007, 09:32 AM

Charlie,
You'll be interested to know then that I found a copy of a very early Kurt Saxon work, before he changed his name. In the early period of his prolific career of publishing odd
books he used his birth name, Don Sisco.
He was a Nazi in the mid-'60s. He changed along the way. I called him and spoke with him in the 2001-2002 period. Age and time give people a different perspective on life.
Saxon (as Don Cisco) wrote The Militants Formulary in 1967 while still a Nazi. That was the beginning of his 40-plus year publishing career.
History is fascinating, and trying to capture the old books like this is my way of trying to keep these pictures (of a kind) for future generations. I don't expect people to use
them pejoratively, honestly. The revolutionary chaos of the 1960s is behind us. In contrast, today, Al Qeda has its own college-level professors of chemistry, its own manuals,
and its own methods of distribution and motivation. So, these are two different issues. One is of a period of social tension internal and domestic that is long dead; the other is
very current, and motivated by an international and often external organization with funding which is independent of old works.
The value of having old books around that are interesting, like old radical documents from the days of the anarchists in the First World War, is that they are primary sources.
Those old documents have no operative power today, but are an accurate picture of the period and by that remain valid for public review. The same for old (Left) SDS,
Weatherman, (splinter) Black Panther, and radical Right publications of the 1960s and 1970s. It is history now, and must be protected.
Charlie Workman February 20th, 2007, 02:48 AM

Funny you should mention that book. I remember seeing it in a gunshop in Orange County in the early 80's. Still kick myself in the ass for not buying it, but I thought I didn't
need it. Already had the PMJB V1. Didn't realize what historical treasures these gems were. I'm still looking for some of the little Minuteman manuals from the 60's. OC was the
perfect place to find this kind of thing back then. I have since moved to the SF bay area and have found an old book store with some lefty 60's treasures. An actual copy of
Marighella's "Minimanual for the Urban Guerrilla", printed and distrubuted by the "Peoples Information Relay". A few years back, I ran across one called "Adolf Hitler and why
we loved him", as well as what appeared to be a romance novel for gay pedophiles. I wanted to buy those two just to show people they really existed. Didn't at the time,
since both subjects make me puke. You can't make this stuff up. BTW, I found my copy of Boom a few minutes ago. Will give it the quick once over tommorow and give you
some particulars. It is a strictly non-political tract.
john_smith February 21st, 2007, 09:02 PM

Transcription:
http://www.textfiles.com/anarchy/INCENDIARIES/boom.txt
Defendu February 21st, 2007, 09:15 PM

From the textfiles.com transcription:
I should also make add a note on the sources of information. There are many books available about explosives. Ninety percent of these do not tell the average bomber what
he wants to know. The only other book that I recommend is THE ANARCHIST COOKBOOK by William Powell. Because of the useful nature of this book, it is hard to find, but is
worth reading if you can get it.
That tells me all I needed to know about this book.
Charlie Workman February 22nd, 2007, 02:25 AM

I have to agree with Defendu about that line in the book, but it doesn't really detract from it. You have to remember the time period in which it was written. The amount of
information available on the subject was extremely limited. I first got into this hobby in the late 60's. You could count the number of interesting books, literally, on your fingers,
assuming you still had all of them left. The fatal errors of the AC were unknown at the time. Paul's low explosive formulas are fine. Obviously, tried and tested by him. You can
get the feel of that sort of thing from most books. His high explosives section are from standard text books on the subject, and have the general vagueness common to that
source. Not advisable to try using only that information. None of his directions are incorrect or unduly dangerous. Read over the text and you'll see what I mean. Back then you
got scraps of information wherever you could. If you were well enough off, you could afford the cream of the crop- the Lenz and Stoffel books on bomb disposal. I was lucky in
that regard. When I was 17 the Army taught me enough to keep me amused for a couple of years. Got to blow up cool stuff and get paid for it. The best books didn't really
start coming out until the mid 80's, so you can't really judge a books value without taking these things into account. As a friend once told me on the subject, "it was small beer,
but we all drank from it".
TORCHed February 27th, 2007, 01:19 AM

Transcription:
http://www.textfiles.com/anarchy/INCENDIARIES/boom.txt
That is some good reading. Very hard to find in-depth information like this anymore. Now does know of the catalog Paladin Press (thats probably a very stupid question in this
forum)? Well, I remember at least 4-6 years ago, they actually had full blown how-to books on improvised explosives, fireworks, guns, and other various weapons. They have
now since been removed from the catalog. So very sad.
As for the post below yours quoting about the Anarchist Cookbook, I personally find that literature to be a waste of time. Maybe its just me, but most of the explosives
information in it is either pointless because everyone already knows (ie. Flash Powder and Gun Powder), and their explanations for plastic explosives is horrible. Maybe it is just
the internet versions you can find all over the net, and extremely out of date.

Palipunk Press used to have E&W books, but stopped selling them after selling out their right to freedom of the press in exchange for not being taken to court by the family of
a brain-dead niglet who got blasted by another brain-dead nigger, who used one of their crapbooks (Hitman) as a 'How-To' guide.
And if anything is an indictment against using such books as actual guides, is the fact that:
A)He got caught because of bad advice in the book
B)It was written by a housewife, not an actual criminal
And
C)The publisher wouldn't stand behind their product :mad:
So, for the sake of their insurance, Palipunk Press set the precedent that publishers could be held liable for the content of their books being used for illegal purposes.
Someone uses a shaped charge to blow open a safe? Springer-Verlag pays.
Drug lab busted? How many of them have a copy of the Merck Index? Merck pays.

I agree with you about Palifuck Press. They still send me their damned catalog. Granted, the Ultimate Sniper is a good book along with a few others, but I get those from other
sources.
I doubt Merck would have anything to worry about, considering they are huge. They ram vaccines down our throats along with unproven drugs that get slammed through the
FDA. I doubt a little sting op by even the DEA would cause them much harm. They even get legislators (that are funded by Merck) to mandate vaccines on school kids.
Vaccines made by Merck.
However, if they become the enemy of wealthy soccer moms, shareholders, watch out.
Charlie Workman March 5th, 2007, 02:29 AM

Paladin used to be the best. I had been buying their stuff since they were known as "Panther Press". They changed it in the late 60's for obvious reasons.
Did tech editing for them freelance in the early 90's. This is after they realized that Seymour Lecker didn't really know his ass from a hole in the ground. You should have seen
some of the shit they turned down.
They were a good company, but they were always in it strictly for the money. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I told them they should have fought the Rice case,
but they took the easy way out. Now someone else will have to do it when the next time comes. Until then, we have the Forum!
nbk2000 March 5th, 2007, 06:34 AM

Did they bother to return all the money people sent in to their 'defense fund' when they were swearing up and down that they'd fight it to the bitter end, but then punked out
and spread their hole for their insurance company?
No, they kept it all.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > How to make M-80s, Cherry Bombs, & Silver Salutes.
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Dr_Flash-Boom February 14th, 2007, 05:22 PM

I find it really sad that so many people ask for formulas and instructions on how to make outlawed explosives like M-80s, Cherry Bombs, and Silver Salutes. IMHO (in my
humble opinion), if you need to ask, you should not be making them.
I was in college in 1966 when the above mentioned explosives were outlawed by the Child Protection Act. I had started making my own explosives by the tender age of either
eight or nine, so it was no big loss when these explosives were outlawed. To me (at the time) they were just kid's play things anyway. I made really BIG explosives. The kind
that would have the worshipers at the Church of the Nazerine diving out the windows head first when I threw one under their church one Summer Sunday evening. They could
not tell if it was the rapture or an alien attack until the smoke started coming out from under the building.
The best way to make a really BIG explosive before the ban was to get a dozen, then legal, M-80s and make one Big explosive from those dozen. I would pull one end cap out
and pour the black powder onto the center of a piece of brown paper bag; then wad it up into a ball; place a fuse in the open end and bind with 7 or 8 complete wraps of
celophane tape. Since each M-80 had almost 3 onces of black powder, my Big explosive had a little over two pounds of explosive material in the enclosure - what a bang. And
can you picture how big the thing was?
Once we started driving, there was not a mailbox in three counties safe. We especially liked the big mailboxes in front of the rich people's houses. We also leveled a few of
those cute brick enclosures that a certain type of show off put their mailbox in. Hell fire and Brimstone, we made short order of the mailbox at the police station a few times.
For those who are waiting for the formula and instructions for making M-80s, here we go. One part by weight of fine ground charcoal; two parts by weight of fine spherical
Aluminum; and five parts by weight of Potassium Chlorate. Mix the Charcoal and Aluminum together first. Then carefully add in the Potassium Chlorate. Use the "diaper"
method of blending the components. Once throughly mixed, get a Dixie cup, a 20 oz. Coke, and a pint of Ten High Bourbon. Pour the coke, Ten High, and the black powder
mixture into the Dixie cup. Place this mixture in the bright sun until the neighbor's dog drinks it. Light the dog's tail and run like the dickens. If the dog's tail does not light,
repeat the above procedure.
Now, drink the remainder of the bourbon and coke. Remember, it is against the law to make or possess any type of salute or firecracker that has more than 50 milligrams of
powder.
Have a great day and keep all your fingers.

If you're drunk, it would make this post understandable. Not excuseable, but understandable.
Between the actual content of the post, and the repeated attempts to post it... I'd guess you're gone, even the watercooler has it's limits of tollerance.
Shalashaska February 14th, 2007, 07:01 PM

I feel dumb now... after reading that...
I'd say a lot of stuff about how the topic of flash powder/M-80's are old news, but this just doesn't even deserve that...

The worst part about this is this man claims to have been in college in 66 which would make him at least 50. I always assumed that kewls grew out of it or died by their own
stupidity, I guess that isn't always the case.
This guy could be a troll, which would be almost as sad as if it was serious, since this post was not even remotely amusing.

Now, drink the remainder of the bourbon and coke.
Something you can teach from experience is, indeed, one's best offering to the youth of today.

He's been given a week off to sober up.
I thought it was funny, lighting the dogs tail and running. :D

I find the lack of specificity in his directions to be potentially dangerous, what if the neighbor has a pug, springer spaniel, doberman or rotweiller? Even great danes have poorly
calibrated tails-

I'm ashamed I have to be the one to tell you this, Bert, but if you'd have just used the search feature you'd have found no less than 12 threads on exactly how to optimize a
short-tailed variety of canine for complete detonation... :rolleyes: ;) :p
Ahh, shucks... This is all getting just too silly, now...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Grenade Shelf Life
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Den1 February 14th, 2007, 10:17 PM

Hello from NZ - never posted before and thought I'd use your collective wisdom as I can't find what I want in any search
engine.
I'd like to kn ow the shelf life of grenades - how long before they lose their effectiveness or become too dangerous to handle?
I'm intereste d in shelf lives fo r stun; fragmentation; percussive; concussive and smoke.
Can anyone help or direct me to a decent research source? Much appreciated. (If there's a better place to post this please let
m e know.)

Lots of different grenades use lots of different explosives and lots of different ignition system s. For an answer, you'd have to
select a specific grenade (M67, MkIIA1, Stielhandgranate (potato masher :D)
You'd probably also have to specify the country it was m ade in, since a lot of m u n i t i o n s a r e l a b e l l e d t h e s a m e, but one is
m a d e i n a n A m erican factory, while the other was made by a 9 year old in Liberia.
Den1 February 15th, 2007, 12:08 AM

Okay - really what I'm looking for is a ballpark rather than total accuracy. Looking for a rough idea on higher quality
m anufactured granad es (say US Arm y stock) - are we talking decades plus here or m uch less? - And thanks for replying. :-)

All I can tell you is that from an episode of Mail C all about 3 years ago, m ost fragm entation grena d e s h a v e a n o p e r a t i o n a l l i f e
of about 10 years. But I don't see why you'd want to know since you'll probably never get your hands on on e unless your
grandpa held on to one for the last 62 years.

There's a difference between operational lifespan, and functiona l lifespan.
T h e r e a r e d e vices that were m ade in W W 1 that'll still work today if they were kept well, but that's n ot something you want to
rely upon with your life. That's function al lifespan.
Operational lifespan is how long the device can be depended upon to function, first tim e-every time, without functioning from
unin tentional actions, like dropping it or bouncing around in the back of an APC.
So, for m odern grena des, functional lifespan could be a century or more, but operational would be only a decade or two.
TreverSlyFox February 15th, 2007, 01:09 AM

M a n y o f t h e g r e n a d e s I u s e d i n 1 9 6 6 - 7 0 w e r e W W I I a n d K o r e a v i n t a g e . T h e o l d e s t I c a n r e m e m ber was from 1944.

Thanks nbk2000. That's really helpful.
M o r e p l e a s e ! W hen you say 'kept well' - how would you keep a grenade so as to m a x i m ise its life? W hat storage conditions
would you recom mend? And, hypothetically, if optimum storage conditions were utilised co uld the functional lifespan be
extended past a couple of decades?
c.Tech February 15th, 2007, 01:37 AM

I would say the best way to store anything is in a cool, dark, dry place. Keep out of direct sunlight.
ShadowMyGeekSpace February 15th, 2007, 02:18 AM

I'd say it primarily depends on the fuse mechanism used... is th e e x p l o s i v e u s e d i n t h e t r i g g e r i n g m e c h a n i s m s t a b l e , o r d o e s
it degrade over tim e? W hat about the actual ch arge of the grenade itself? It's im possible to say whether or not som ething is
s a f e to handle, or can operate without details.

Good points all.
Okay. Let's approach this from another direction. As I know very little about explosives an d a r m a m ents of any kind . . .
If I wanted g renades to last a really re ally long tim e ( s a y 5 0 - 1 0 0 y e a r s o r m o r e i f p o s s i b l e )
a) W h i c h o n e s s h o u l d I c h o o s e ?
b) How should I store t h e m ?
c) Could I store a whole range - eg percussion; stun; concussion; fragm e n t a t i o n ; s m o k e ?
Thanks for bearing with me - I'm a writer and I want to get my facts right as I hate reading stuff that has b een poorly
rese arched. If it isn't possible to store grenades for that long (using today's technology - that is from here on going forward)
then I'll re-think.
Reading the introductory notes I realise that I can contribute little to this forum a n d I a m using your collected wisdom - s o I ' d
just like to say again - I really appreciate it.
atlas#11 February 15th, 2007, 01:30 PM

*Most* of the military hand grenades I've cared to rese a r c h u s e d a m i x o f R DX and TNT or one or the othe r, which theoretically
s h o u l d b e s a fe for qu ite a while if kept well. Filler explosives are probably not your biggest concern .
The detonator and triggering m echanism would be something I would rem ove from a grenade before storing it longer than
several m o n t h s . M i l i t a r y E O D d o s o , a s f o r s m o k e g r e n a d e s , I ' d p r o b a b l y d o t h e s a m e . C o n c u s s i o n i s b a s i c a l l y t h e s a m e a s a
fragm entatio n grenade its just m ore filler and less casing.
If you were going to rely on these, I would probably use Am erican m u n i t i o n s , t h o u g h R u s s i a n s t o c k s e e m s to be working well in
Iraq. If it is a matter of obtaining them then th e geographical lo cation would be a m ajor factor in what is available.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > 9m m , 4 0 S W , 4 5 A C P , 3 5 7 S I G
vs Body Arm or
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View Full Version : 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP, 357 SIG vs Body Armor

I figured a few of you m ight like to see this. Please note this wasn't done scientifically, and only th e basic ability to control this
e x p e r i m ent could be accomplished due to the im promptu nature.
A friend of m ine had a few pieces of spare armor floating around. Due to t h e e x c e s s p i e c e s h e h a d l a y i n g a r o u n d w e d e c i d e d
to shoot it up. The arm or was III-A that was ho used in a cordura outer shell not photographed. All rounds penetrated the
cordura outer shell, and the weatherproof jacke t. Statem ents of penetration are p urely based on how many layers of Kevlar the
round passed through. After e ach shot the body arm or was flattened and sm oothed to prevent the rounds from p e n etrating
crum pled layers. Each shot was done from a distance of 5 feet from the barrel.
9 m m W a l t h e r P99 - 115 GR , 147 GR SXT RANGER

40 cal W alther P99 - 165 GR
Glock 22 with a 357 SIG barrel - 125 GR
45 cal Spring field 1911A1 - 230 GR
The first photo is of all Ball Winchester W hite Box shot into the armor. This was a shot after the 9mm 115 GR was shot to show
how the kevlar crumpled.
http://i11.ph o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / a 1 8 5 / I n f e r n o M D M / T e s t / B u l l e t P e n e t r a t i o n . j p g
The next photo shows the rounds after they were shot. The Rounds shown from left to right begin with 9mm , 40cal, 357 SIG,
and then 45ACP. Note the black round is the 9m m R A N G E R r o u n d t h a t h a s b e e n s a i d t o b e a b l e t o p e n e t r a t e I I - A b o d y a r m or.
T h e 9 m m R ANGER wa s shot in to another piece of arm or and penetrated 9 layers. I do not have a photo of that piece.
http://i11.ph o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / a 1 8 5 / I n f e r n o M D M / T e s t / D S C N 2 1 0 7 . j p g

Thanks for posting th is, Inferno.
I'm not surprised the .45 ACP didn't do well. It's a great m a n s t o p p e r a g a i n s t s o m eone without arm or, but that fat, slow bullet
really sucks against Kevlar. I would have expected the .40 S&W to do better, though. It's not surprising tha t the .35 7 Sig did
best.
Are you (or anyone else here) familiar with a website called the "Box O ' Truth"? It's owned by a retiree who does a lot of this
sort of testing, though not so much on body arm or as o n other m aterials. Here's the link:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
O n e o f t h e m ost interesting tests was of a 7.62x25 Tokarev pistol against a modern ballistic helm et (which are typically NIJ
C l a s s I I I A - - I h a v e o n e m yself). These helmets will NO T stop m ost rifle rounds. (Certainly not 5.5 6 NATO, contrary to what the
site owner says at the beginning of the test results page. In fact, 5.56 NATO penetrates better at 200 yards than at closer
ranges due to the better stability of the bullet at 200 yards). They will stop alm ost all com mon pistol rounds. HOWEVER, the
7.62 Tokarev shot through one side of the helmet! Granted, the helm et had already taken some hits in other places by that
tim e, but still...
Here's the direct link to the helm et test:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

The failure in both are tests are the amount of rounds that im pacted the armor.
Unlike civilian III-A as com pared to the military standard, the standards are NOT designed to defeat high speed/ larger caliber
r o u n d s . T h e m ilitary believed it would have defend against prim arily 9m m 4 5 A C P a n d s i m i l a r r o u n d s . A l t h o u g h t h e 7 . 6 2 x 2 5 i s
a military round you don't see it often. Also the helmet really isn't designed to stop rifle or pistol rounds. The PSGT (helmet on
B o x o T r u t h ) M I T C H h e l m ets are prim arily for shrapnel defense, and pistol calibers.
A l s o t o q u o t e B o x o T r u t h : 4 . T h e s e h e l m ets were tougher than I would have thought. They're not designed to stop pistol
r o u n d s , b u t s e e m e d t o d o t h e job just fine.

Regarding standards, I just saw a note over at BulletProofMe.com (link below) stating that there are no NIJ standards for
helm ets. I was surprised to see that, since m anufacture rs routinely state that their helm ets are Level II or Level III-A. I
s u p p o s e t h a t m erely m eans that they have been tested with the s a m e threats na m e d i n t h o s e s t a n d a r d s .
Also, BulletProofMe sells what they say is the standard-issue military helm et and claim s that it was tested to stop Level II
threats. I would think that the m ilitary would use a stronger helm et, although Level II will stop m ost fragm e n t a t i o n a n d l e s s e r
h a n d g u n r o u n d s . I g u e s s f r a g m entation is m ainly what the military is worried about (though that could be different in
unconventional warfare).
The following ballistics chart from Pinnacle Arm or is one of the m ost complete charts I've seen, since they fill in their own
values that aren't officially part of the NIJ standards (which are in bold):
http://www.pinnaclearm or.com /body-armor/ballistic-chart.php
It's interesting how 7.62x25 at 1440-1540 fps is given its own in -house level just above Level III-A. That would account for the
7.62x25 getting through the helm et when a .357 Mag from a long barrel couldn't. (I do wonder if a .357 Mag FMJ would have
done better, though.) O f course, as yo u said, this wasn't the mo st scientific test, since a n ew helmet wasn't used for each
round.
Incidentally, for anyone who wants to buy a helm e t , t h e y ' r e a v a i l a b l e t o c i v i l i a n s o n t h e W e b . I b o u g h t o n e b e c a u s e o n e d a y

civilian sales will be banned:
http://www.bulletproofme.com/Body_Armor_Complete_Products_LIST.shtml
http://botac.com /heb a . h t m l

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm
For your information, body armor material is designed to work when worn by a hum an.
H u m ans are com pressible.
IIIA material will work when put on a person or over 4" of ballistic clay, but if you just put IIIA material over concrete or over
boards, it will fail."
PS: I'll be leaving this forum the day it becom es another shitty gun board.

W e had a very soft plywood backing. I need to get that photo off my friends computer, and post it.
LOD - The 357 SIG is I think about 150 fps slower then .357 Mag, and rounds like Double Tap run at the sam e speed (but are
hollow point). I would assume the sam e results happening in m y e x p e r i m e n t i f a . 3 5 7 M a g w a s u s e d .
Defendu - I don't think anyone wants this to be a gun forum, but due to the topics on hand, the use of im provised weapons,
and munitions that could play a part, and peop le building ballistic devices I figured this might be of interest.

I figured som e of you would e njoy seeing the im pact on the plywood the arm or was hanging on.
http://i11.ph o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / a 1 8 5 / I n f e r n o M D M / T e s t / D S C N 2 0 9 2 . j p g

IIIA material will work when put on a person or over 4" of ballistic clay, but if you just put IIIA material over concrete or over
boards, it will fail.It looks like the Box O' Truth was at least partially wron g about this, at least regarding the boards. I can
definitely see why Kevlar would need to have som e "give" in it to be able to stop a bullet, though. After all, it basically acts like
a net that disperses the impact force. But I guess plywo o d i s f l e x i b l e e n o u g h .
The two big holes in that pic look pretty ominous. III-A arm or is supposed to protect from excessive blunt-force traum a as well
a s p enetration for the rounds it's rated for, but a force that can punch ho les in plywood can alm ost certainly break a couple of
ribs, too.
Inferno, do you know which holes in the wood correspon d to which rounds? Thanks.

Inferno, do you know which holes in the wood correspon d to which rounds? Thanks.
Yes the correspond with the photo above, except the 9mm and 357 SIG really didn't get p h o t o g r a p h e d w e l l e n o u g h . T h e r e i s
substantial d amage to the wood at that point, but only a little was knocked out, especially on the 357 SIG side.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > HMTD making
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View Full Version : HMTD making
209 February 17th, 2007, 01:47 AM

Let m e warn you, this is a very "water cooler" post.
My parents a r e h o m e f r o m the States now so m y m a k i n g of explosive peroxides that require the fridge have com e to an
abrupt halt. I need to m a k e a bit more HMTD tom orow but cannot use th e fridge, after all the reactants have been m i x e d a n d
it need to be kept cool, woud I be able to leave it in a bucket of cool water outsid e? It is Febuary now, but hasn't been down to
zero for several nights now. If I can leave it outside, can I leave it in the garage? (it still stays pretty cool).
Thanks

C h e c k t h e t e m perature outside and apply it to the situa tion. If I were you, (depending on the vessel it's in), I'd hide it eithe r
in or behind som ething in the freezer. If you have and cylindrica l ice cream containers, that m ight work.
I m ay also suggest watching yard and garage sales in the future for a sm all meat freezer, and keeping it in your room t o k e e p
your "soda" nice and cool.
mike16 February 17th, 2007, 06:07 AM

W hen I make AP, I put it in the freeze r for a couple of hours.
Also cover the top of the vessel with some pastic sheet and elastic bands, so nothing can contaminate it.
W hen I do this, I leave the mix in the freezer for about 2 hours, and when I take it out, I have a solid m ass of AP crystals.
Horrigan February 17th, 2007, 07:18 AM

If it was m e, I'd dissolve fertilizer-grade AN to get cold temperatures and then filter and recrystallise to get purified AN.
4 5kg 33,5%N AN bag :D France h a s good side... ; )

From a subjective point of view, I would say HELL NO . HMTD is dangerous normally, withou t t h e a d d e d d a n g e r o f s o m e k i n d o f
runaway reaction/m ore sensitive composition/etc. If you want to keep your fingers, buy a bar fridge.
If you are willing to stay up all night, then you could try an ice/salt bath which you replenish when it gets low.
Objectively, I can't se e a problem with it really. More heat=faster reaction (I believe) so sure, you probably could just leave it
in the garage. Take precautions in the case of a premature det, or runaway reaction.
You should take into consideration how far off 0 your nights get. If they go down to 2 or 3 I'd say sure, go for it. You m ight be
able to get a way with 10*C, but you might want to think about using an ice/bath in a sealed polystyrene to inhibit heat gain as
m uch as possible.
2 0 9 , r e m e m b e r w h a t h a p p e n e d t o p h o ne. Don't play around with this shit, you probably don't NEED to have HMTD tomorrow,
just WANT it. Don't let that cloud your preservation instincts.
209 February 18th, 2007, 01:46 PM

I left it in the icebath outside and cam down this m orning to find...... Dick happened! No crystals in the bea ker, no nothing,
w h a t t h e h e l l h a p p e n e d ? S h o u l d I p u t t h e b e a k er in a warm water bath?
By the way, yes,I do remem b e r P h o n e , t o m a k e t h a t m u c h A P h e h a d t o b e a r e a l d u m b a s s .

I left it in the icebath outside and cam down this m orning to find...... Dick happened! No crystals in the bea ker, no nothing,
w h a t t h e h e l l h a p p e n e d ? S h o u l d I p u t t h e b e a k er in a warm water bath?
By the way, yes,I do remem b e r P h o n e , t o m a k e t h a t m u c h A P h e h a d t o b e a r e a l d u m b a s s .
:eek:
W arm water bath? No freaking way man. Sure you didn't know him personally?:p
The method I've always used successfully involves about 3kg of ice-cube s, a 4 liter ice-cream tub and a 500m l/1L pyrex
kitchen jug.
I start the synth at around 4pm , pouring the h2o2 straight from the freezer into the jug, also straight from the freezer.
Everything is mixed together in the pyrex while it's sitting in the bucket surrounded by about 2kg of ice-cub e s a t a b l e s p o o n o r
3 of salt and the m inimum wa ter required to co m e u p t h e s i d e o f the jug as far as the solution inside it does.
At around 9-10pm I go back and check it - it lo o k s l i k e n o t h i n g h a s h a p p e n e d , e x c e p t t h e i c e h a s m e l t e d . I r e p l e n i s h t h e i c e

a n d g o t o b e d. In the m orning, there's often a fair-bit of precipitate, though the m ixture is still rather thin.
After pouring a s m a l l a m o u n t ( ~ 5 0 m l) of the m ix into a jam jar, I leave it sit for another 4-5 hours at room tem p. Over this
tim e, the jam -jar m ix ture becom es incredibly thick while the one in the cooled pyrex doesn't change too m uch. After
acertaining that the reaction h as proceeded far enough with cooling, and that the jam -jar m ix has finished reacting
uneventfully, the pyrex is rem oved from the water-bath and allowed to sit for 4-5 hours or m ore.
Stirring during this tim e of sitting uncooled GR EATLY increases the yield. U sing this m e t h o d I h a v e m a d e u p t o 7 0 g d r i e d h m t d
in a single go. Hence the seperation into batches for the 'warming' stage. Just start super-small and ALW A Y S u s e a m u c h
bigg er vessel (wide as possible for maximal cooling effect) and a lot m ore ice than you think you'll need. It's seriously
unpleasant when the reaction gets too hot and starts to run-away. I've not had a serious problem during th e 3 run-aways I've
had. But I'm not about to try m y luck again...
Just use lots'n'lots of cooling and an equal m e a s u r e o f p a t i e n c e a n d b r a i n s .

W hen done properly, the stuff has a shelf-life in excess of 12 m onths. Neutralzing with a base, as opposed to repeated rinsing
with fresh water and decanting seriously kills the shelf life (and presum a b l y , t h e a l r e a d y d u b i o u s s a f e t y m a rgin associated with
the organic peroxide com p o u n d s )
You really sh o u l d n ' t m a k e t h e stuff whenever p ossible - this is just the m e t h o d I h a v e e m ployed succesfully in the past.
Also, for what it's worth - I use 50% h2o2, calculate how m uch water is needed to dilute it down to 30%, then m ix th a t a m o u n t
of water with the citric. This greatly reduces the time needed to get eveything dissolved. It also reduces the chance of runaway
that would be present if just using undiluted 50 %...
209 February 18th, 2007, 04:57 PM

Yeah well..... Yesterday was when I started the synth and I added all the reactants and nothing really happend. It d idnt heat
up in the least and no crystals have form ed sin ce yesterday, I am beginning to wonder if m y chem s a r e n o g o o d ? H y d r o g e n
peroxide 3% crap, citric acid (grocery store) and hexamine fuel tablets (sporting store) the back of the package says "these
tablets are m a d e o f h e x a m i n e a c l e a n b u r n i n g . . . . . . . . . b l a h b l a h b lah (the tablets didnt have any wax in them)
I added the reactants: (my scale is a piece of shit)
H e x a m ine (approx. 1 0 g r a m s )
Citric (approx. 18-20 gram s)
H 2 O 2 300m L
Are the ratios wrong?

Hm m, I don't have a recipe anym ore & can't be bothered looking BUT from m emory everything is about rig ht excep t for all
that water..
If m y crappy mem ory serves m e correctly, it's (the reaction rate) dependant upon pH and tem p . T h e e n d p o i n t ( o r a m o u n t o f
product you get) is also strongly affected by concentrations. More strongly concentrated solutions will react both faster and
m ore completely. They'll also get hotter during that time.
Before I m a n a g e d t o f i n d t h e H 2 O 2 a t a h y d r o p o n i c s s t o r e , I a l s o u s e d t h e 3 % s h i t f r o m t h e s u p e r m a r k e t . W h e n u s i n g t h a t
stuff, I found it highly advantageous to put it in a ceram ic (stoneware) saucepan and heat _very slowly_. I would typically
r e d u c e a 2 0 0 m l b o t t l e o f 3 % t o a b o u t 5 0 m ls in around an hour or so. After I'd do ne that to a number of bottles, I would
c o m b i n e t h e m all - knowing that I now had 50ml per bo ttle instead of 20 0, I guestim ated it to be _around_ 12% - can't be
sure since some of it's bound to decompose in this tim e .
After I had around 150ml of this m ore concentrated stuff I would then evaporate that down to around 50m ls again. This wou ld
give m e a solution that could not possibly be m ore that 36% or so. But again, it would not be this strong due to
decomposition.
Now it's im portant that I state, the reason for d o i n g a n u m ber of bottles and for doing the m in two stages is to reduce the
e f f o r t n e e d e d t o a v o i d d e c o m p o s i t i o n . I n o n l y d o i n g o n e b o t t l e a t a t i m e , y o u ' d h a v e t o e v a p 3 0 0 m l down to around 30ml.
W hen you're getting near to the end of the job, you've got a gas flame heating a huge-ass sauce pan with only 30mls of liquid
in it. It's rather difficult to carefully con trol the rate of evaporatio n with so little liquid. This is why it was done in two stages.
Although I could have just dum ped a few bottles in together and then evap'd that down to the calculated am ount, the
temptation is to crank the heat up too much at the start and waste som e of the H2O2 through ove r heating. At least with a
c o u p l e o f s m all runs, I could see the p rogress the whole tim e .
If all this seems like too much of a pain in the ass, eve n using a stainless steel saucepan and evap'ing down to even 1/2 or 1/
3 of the volum e s u p p lied m e with better results. I just made sure I used what I thought would be a 25% excess of this evap 'd
h2o2 to account for any lost during the heating process. Besides, when I was doing it, h2o 2 was easier and cheaper to get than
h e x a m ine.
But to answer your question - yeah, the ratios look about right. It's just the water. From m e m o r y , 1 g h e x a m i n e n e e d s 1 g
(pure) h2o2 - adjust for conce ntration. Each 1g hexamine needs 1.5g citric acid. So, it's 1:1:1.5 - Hex, h2o2, citric. Assum ing
the h2o2 is 30%. Stronger peroxide is said not to provide any advantage over 30%, from m e m ory the pH doesn't change all
that much as the percentage gets higher once its above 30%. W eaker th rows the reaction out..
209 February 18th, 2007, 07:13 PM

T h a n k s C h o p p e r ! I a m going to try your m ethod for H2O2, I was always under the im pression that you couldnt boil hyrogen
peroxide because it would all decom pose leaving you screwed. O ne last thing, I k now that someho usehold cleaners contain
large amounts of hyd rogen peroxide ( 25% and up) does anyon e know of a name brand cleaner that I can use for hydrogen
peroxide?
thanks
tiac03 February 19th, 2007, 02:09 AM

Go to the Pharmacy and go into the hair dye section. They usually have a 9% hydrogen peroxide bottle there (30 volumes).
Should help a bit (and if worse com es to worse, less to boil down).

2 0 9 - I b e l i e v e i t h a s b e e n t a l k e d a b o u t s o m ewhere on The Forum regarding how concentration effects the product. IIRC , it is
an exponential, not a linear function, hence 3% H2O2 will be 4 times slower than 6% in th e s a m e condition s. So there would
b e a H U GE difference between 30% and 3% (somewhere in the order of 100 times slower reaction).
It is definate ly worth boiling your H2O 2 to get a higher %. Try to k e e p t h e t e m p e r a t u r e b e l o w 7 8 * C f r o m m e m o r y . R e m e m b e r ,

m ore surface area an d the m ore air moving past the su rface will dramatically increase you r evaporation.
If you get yo ur previous attem pt at HMTD and let it warm up, see if crystal precipitate. If they do, you know your doing it right
(I would probably disregard th ose crystals though, incase they are unstable). If nothing happens, then you know it isn't your
m ethod, it's your reactants.
R e m ember, if it works for everyone else, but not you, you've fucked up somewhere.
209 February 23rd, 2007, 10:20 PM

I've searched the hell out of the forum and google with still no resolution to m y p r o b l e m . I b o i l e d d o w n m y 3 % h y d r o g e n
p e r o x i d e f r o m 1000m L to 100 mL hoping it would m a k e a d i f f e r e nce, I added the reactants..................morning later, Nothing.
H e x a m ine 8 gram s
citric acid 14 gram s
H2O 2 -30mL
h e a x a m ine from the full table ts (I think it was pretty much pure hexamine)
citric acid - grocery
whats wrong here, any ideas?

W hat was the cooling?
209 February 24th, 2007, 12:38 PM

this forum is the best! I read a post on how som e g u y s m a k e s h i s i c e b a th and I tried tha t method, I just checked the fridge 5
m i n u t e s a g o a n d t h e r e i s a s o l i d m ass of HMTD crystals in there!!! YES! Thanks again for your help.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Possible ebay sting operation
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DMSOnMyVeins February 18th, 2007, 02:21 AM

I did a search on eBay for GAA, and almost purchased a gallon of GAA from seller name "brandonkuhn". Before I clicked the "buy it now " button I decided to click the "seller's
other items" link....
That's when I noticed that this seller is specializing in chems geared toward explosive manufacture. He only has a handful of chems for sale and those include:
Ammonium Nitrate
Nitromethane (seller states very high purity)
Nitric acid manufacture kit
Nitric acid being sold under the name of "Hydrogen Nitrate"
Mercury
Perchloric Acid!
He also is selling Hydriodic Acid:eek: ..........
If you purchase or have purchased from this seller keep your nose absolutely clean.....

Thanks DMSOnMyVeins, although I'm guessing this seller is American is still good to tell forum about people like that.
Remember to be vigilant people, if it seems to good to be true, it often is. Then again, sometimes it isn't but I w ouldn't risk spending a long time with only Bubba for company.

The guy certainly is pretty good at listing things discreetly, he is also selling "quick silver metal" ;).
If you were to buy from this guy I would definitely contact all of the other people who bought from this seller first. If they don't answ er you take it as they are currently unable
to do so as Guantanomo does not have internet access ;).
He is selling 5 lbs of AN for 60 dollars(fertilizer grade) which makes me lean towards thinking of him as someone just trying to make a killing on ebay, rather than a Fed, but it
doesn't mean the Feds aren't watching him.
Good looking out DMSOnMyVeins.
Frunk February 18th, 2007, 08:41 PM

Perchloric acid...?
Given that you can't even find xClO4 on Ebay most of the time, this seems too good to be true. People have a hard time making/buying nitric acid and this guys wants to make
me believe he's distilled H2SO4/Perchlorate mixtures just to sell it on Ebay? Maybe he has industrial contacts, but what is HClO4 used for in industry anyways? I have never
heard of even professional pyrotechnic corporations making perchlorates by neutralization.

I've actually been watching this seller for about three months, since it appeared to be the best seller of AN I could find. Since then though, another seller (glk4life), has started a
pretty constant auction for 1/3 the price. 5 lb bags for $10! I've been planning on having someone bid on this for me when I start work up again in April, but just one thing is
frightening me... check out the pic.
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2 F&fkr=1&from= R8&satitle=ammonium+nitrate&category0=&submitSearch= Search

Perchloric acid is used as a oxidative digesting agent for the analysis of phosphorus, percholric acid is the most time consuming and dangerous choice but must be used on
difficult samples like sediment.
On a side note the other tw o digestion methods are ammoniumpersulfate, and conc.HNO3/conc.H2SO4 ;)
LibertyOrDeath February 19th, 2007, 07:19 PM

I'd be super-careful about buying any such things off eBay. Take a look at this article:
http://ww w.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=264863&contrassID= 2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID= 0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=264863
"We don't make you show a subpoena, except in exceptional cases," Sullivan told his listeners. "When someone uses our site and clicks on the `I Agree' button, it is as if he
agrees to let us submit all of his data to the legal authorities. Which means that if you are a law-enforcement officer, all you have to do is send us a fax with a request for
information, and ask about the person behind the seller's identity number, and w e w ill provide you with his name, address, sales history and other details - all without having to
produce a court order. We want law enforcement people to spend time on our site," he adds. He says he receives about 200 such requests a month, most of them unofficial
requests in the form of an email or fax.

Wow, I guess that explains why I got letter from the CPSC a while back after ordering some Al and KClO4 from ebay telling me not to make m-80's. Thanks for the heads up.

Until now, eBay seemed like the best place to get around lots of formalities and restrictions... now it seems like a place to get your name on a long invitation list to jail/
Guantanamo.... despite all this, I'll still probably get my AN off of eBay, since it looks like I'm not gonna get it anywhere else.
Mr Science February 20th, 2007, 03:05 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ammonium-Nitrate-34-0-0-OXIDIZER-5-1-50LB_W0QQitemZ130081119909QQihZ003QQcategoryZ10423 3QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
For AN he seems reliable. And in other terms for ebay, I feel another site for pyro and other 'questionable' items should be made. Let it be chems, 37mm rounds, etc; pretty
much all the items ebay is scared of having on the site. And this new site should function the same w ay as google email; you only register on invite, and upon registration you
can give your code to a max of 2-4 people perhaps. It w ill keep the w rong people out, such as kewls, idiots, etc, and leave the more responsible people in (hopefully). There
should also be moderation as well on it, and anyone seeming to cause trouble there gets their IP/acct permabanned. I know I am rambling, this is my first post, and kinda
irrelevant to the thread, but I think it would be a fantastic idea. I am sick of ebay babysitting everyone and telling us what we can and cannot have. The only w ay this will ever
change is if someone steps up...

This all sounds good on paper, but what happens when your site gets taken down like KNO3.com or Pyrotek or like Firefox w ill be if the CPSC gets what they want... Also, along
with all the great features of Internet "anonymity," there are the bad things, like the ability of people to simply click "Renew IP Address" or "Repair Connection" and join right
back up.
Even The Forum gets kewls over and over again because of it. And just because we can get rid of the ones that are completely retarded, picture a kid that wants to kill all of his
classmates. He'll find a friend with an invite, order, and not say a word, and just appear like a normal "farmer" ;) that wants some AN. Then you've got 10 deaths, angry
parents, and background checks on the kids computer. The parents go to high schools around the country, pleading people for sympathy for their children and for your site to be
taken down. Thus, we have the cycle of pyrotechnics suppliers, or at least something like it...
IMHO, the sites that have M-80 Kit's deserved to go... they were just asking for it.
Edit: Not to mention the fact that even IF you didn't eventually get a rat to let the cops in on it, such a small quantity of people probably w ouldn't be practical, since the main
sites like UN and Skylighter buy in bulk.
fused February 21st, 2007, 06:29 PM

I recently purchased some chems from ebay as well.. its so nice to know that big brother is looking out for me.
Anyway, I saw that ebay seller "glk4ever" has ammonium nitrate in 1, 5, 10, and 20lb bags (finely pow dered)
Has anyone here had dealings with this seller? I'm only slightly edgy about ordering, just hoping to get some input before hand.
megalomania February 23rd, 2007, 08:59 PM

A nitric acid manufacture kit... Now that I would like to see. I found the expired auction link searching via google. From the picture it just looks like a bottle of acid. There is
something suspicious about this guy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nitric-Acid-manufacture-kit-500mL_W0QQitemZ130074665326QQihZ003QQcategoryZ1042 33QQcmdZViewItem
Of course I hate all ebay sellers w ith a passion and refuse to use the service. Nothing but opportunistic scammers trying to rip you off with overinflated shipping. They should
treat these people like businesses: as in I want their names, addresses, phone numbers, and physical descriptions... the better to help me file "complaints" in person.
I find this guy's items to be quite overpriced. Hmm, I guess I am in the w rong business. $35 for 500 mL of hardw are store hydrochloric acid indeed.
I see from his feedback he has only existed since just after Christmas, barely 2 months.
DMSOnMyVeins February 23rd, 2007, 10:13 PM

I messaged this guy using the eBay messaging system 2 weeks ago telling him he is headed for trouble if he continues selling these auctions:
http://cgi.ebay.com/FLASH-POWDER-A-B-MIX-1-OZ_W0QQitemZ130083260320QQihZ003QQcategoryZ104233Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I got no response and he continues to sell these "kits".
What he is doing amounts to selling a C-4 A/B mix (Nitric acid and hexamine).
Since Flash powder is considered a high explosive is it just me or is this guy headed for trouble?

The "brandonkuhn" seller has a very good feedback rating. Too good? You decide.
Of the fitst ten items receiving positive feedback, nine were for different items.
tmp February 27th, 2007, 12:21 AM

DMSOnMyVeins, Skylighter sells flash kits for use in flash pots. Even the
warnings this guy posts are the same as Skylighter's. I don't know about any
legal ramifications for his kits but I thought eBay usually didn't allow this
given the potential for making(admittedly expensive) about 10 M-80s. As for
the eBayer brandonkuhn, his prices are a ripoff IMHO !
TORCHed February 27th, 2007, 01:02 AM

I'd be super-careful about buying any such things off eBay. Take a look at this article:
http://ww w.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=264863&contrassID= 2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID= 0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=264863
Article:
"We don't make you show a subpoena, except in exceptional cases," Sullivan told his listeners. "When someone uses our site and clicks on the `I Agree' button, it is as if he
agrees to let us submit all of his data to the legal authorities. Which means that if you are a law-enforcement officer, all you have to do is send us a fax with a request for
information, and ask about the person behind the seller's identity number, and w e w ill provide you with his name, address, sales history and other details - all without having to
produce a court order. We want law enforcement people to spend time on our site," he adds. He says he receives about 200 such requests a month, most of them unofficial
requests in the form of an email or fax.
I read the article, and it is very disturbing. However, I don't feel the exert above could possibly be legal. Also, I would like to note that at first it seems as if it is referring to the
buyer's information, but then switches over to the seller's identity and information.
It almost makes you think who would be more at fault, w ould it be the seller of the items, though stating their own disclaimer, or the buyer whom is purchasing such chemicals
in a legal fashion.
Thank god, the government can only somewhat regulate such chemicals, rather than completely ban them for sale due to the many different uses of them.
Its ironic you posting the links to those sellers, since I've planned on buying 100lbs of AN from one of those sellers.
DMSOnMyVeins, Skylighter sells flash kits for use in flash pots. Even the
warnings this guy posts are the same as Skylighter's. I don't know about any
legal ramifications for his kits but I thought eBay usually didn't allow this
given the potential for making(admittedly expensive) about 10 M-80s. As for
the eBayer brandonkuhn, his prices are a ripoff IMHO !
Skylighter has their ups and their downs. I do remember purchasing last year, where I did purchase the max amount allowed of German Blackhead Al (though I have found
better 2 micron powder elsew here), and Potassium Perch, and P Chlorate as well. They had no problems with these orders, but did ask questions of my intentions before
ordering. A year later, I tried to purchase 6 inch rocket tubes, and was rejected the sale (no chemicals purchased) because they believed I was planning on using the tubes for
on-ground firecrackers... ok, so maybe I was, but thats beyond the point.
Judging by Skylighter's site this year, they have restrictions w here you cannot purchase a Chlorate or Aluminum pow der as your first purchase. The prices are great, but you
easily risk having your order denied, and possibly blacklisting your address in their records.
I messaged this guy using the eBay messaging system 2 weeks ago telling him he is headed for trouble if he continues selling these auctions:
http://cgi.ebay.com/FLASH-POWDER-A-B-MIX-1-OZ_W0QQitemZ130083260320QQihZ003QQcategoryZ104233Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
What he is doing amounts to selling a C-4 A/B mix (Nitric acid and hexamine).
Since Flash powder is considered a high explosive is it just me or is this guy headed for trouble?
I must say, that guy is beyond stupid if you ask me. He'll be shut dow n fast. I will disagree with you and say it is not like selling a C-4 kit, and I could have sw orn Flash Powder
is not considered a high explosive. For an explosive compound to be considered a high explosive, doesn't it need to explode (not just flash) without confinement? For example,
if you put a gram of flash powder on the ground and ignite it, you get a fast burning poof of smoke, however detonating a gram of C-4 will leave you with a crater.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Spontaneous detonations
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Plotin February 18th, 2007, 11:40 AM

I have read that NG can self-ignite, but under what conditions? Is it possible to produce NG in a way that makes spontaneous
detonation impossible during storage?
W hich prim ary explosives are safest to produce if you are a beginner?
Another question, a bit off topic: W ill RDX, DDNP or PETN detona te if being shot a t, with a 9 m m fo r instance? Curious since
B o o m er wrote that he shot at NG with an airgun without anything happening. Would NG have detonated if a larger calibre was
used?
Alexires February 22nd, 2007, 06:41 AM

* s i g h * - R e a d.
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=4163&highlight=nitroglycerine
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=2547
Read this (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=2780) as well. The whole thing please.
I recomm end you pay close attention to this one (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=1066&postcou nt=9).
That should get you started, and probably answer your question (if you're around long enough to read it all)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Blast box for cam corder
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fused February 21st, 2007, 06:15 PM

B e e n t h i n k i n g a b o u t b u i l d i n g a c a m era enclosure designed for being in close proxim ity to a blast or other hazardous areas
where debris would pose a problem . It's for LE only right now.
So far I'm going with 1/8" polycarb glass which is supposedly "250 times" stronge r t h a n g l a s s . I t h i n k I a l s o h a v e 1 / 4 " s h e e t
as well. I plan on building a box out of wood and then pre-drillin g holes in the polycarb and wood fram e for screws, then
installing the glass at a 40 angle and bolting it on. I'm hoping that this will defle ct debris away an d over the enclosure, rath er
than having a flat box that it just sm acks into full force. After that I guess I'll drill in and add a nut for attaching to a tripod or
stationary mount.
A n y i d e a s o n the construction? So far I haven't put anything together yet.
I had an incident before where my cam corder stopped recording, but it still m anaged to capture the action :D
Hirudinea February 21st, 2007, 09:23 PM

If your not worried ab out debris flying around, just hitting the cam era why not point the cam era directly awa y from the blast
a n d u s e a c o u p l e o f c h e a p m irrors (goodwill or garbage) to reflect the image into the camera, the blast would be recorded until
the blast wave hit the m irrors and the cam era would be unharm e d , s e e p oor sketch below
/ \
/ \
*--*
* C*
***
B O O M!
The wood takes the brunt of the explosion and the polycarbonate protects the cam era from and stray debris, and cam eras are
m o r e e x p e n s i v e t h a n m irrors.
nbk2000 February 21st, 2007, 10:35 PM

That's the way the pro's do it, with m irrors reflecting the im age towards a protecte d camera, so the camera is never directly
e x p o s e d t o t h e b l a s t o r f r a g m ents. :)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Cannon
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cephas February 22nd, 2007, 01:43 AM

Hello, I hope somebody can help me out.
My neighbor built me a Cannon for New Years Eve and Fourth of July to set off, I got so excited over his, he said he would make me one.
Heres the description of it:
Stainless steel two inch stock 16 inches long with a half-inch bore.
From the front of the barrel to where you put the fuse in it is 12 inches
From the fuse to the back of the barrel is 4 1/2inches.
Fuse hole is 1/8 inch diameter
From fuse hole inside barrel looking to back of barrel is a half inch and the other 4 inches is solid steel
It is all completely solid and the back of barrel does not come off of it. He really did a nice job on it; outside of barrel has nice lathing done on it.
He lathed around the barrel cutting into it all the way around and cut two pieces of aluminum steel that fit exactly around the barrel and the outside being a square then
mounted that on a 1 1/8 inch pipe by 6 inches , putting axle through that and six inch steel spoke wheels on it.
I mean this thing is really cherry.
The problem I have is before he gave it to me he passed away. A few years later his daughter brought it over to me and I believe its a carbide cannon? but I am really not
sure. And thats about all I know about it.
Can anyone tell me what kind of material and fuse I need to use to fire this thing off? and exactly how to load it pack it and fire it. Any help would be appreciated and I cant
wait to fire this baby off.

From your description it does not sound like a carbide cannon. Google on carbide cannon and "bangsite" for more information on that. http://www.cannon-mania.com/
bigbang.htm

Sounds to me like a standard Black Powder cannon using 1/2 or 1 oz charges and regular Visco fuse. Hard to tell without a picture and all the specs.
Bert February 23rd, 2007, 12:07 PM

Oops, something ate Cephas last night-
I figured he was probably too young to buy a can of BP. And unless his dead neighbor was a gunsmith, I'd be leary of the unknown metals used. "Aluminum steel"?
FUTI February 23rd, 2007, 02:01 PM

Maybe that kind of "steel" killed the neighbor? I think it was something like the stuff known at my area as duraluminium. Can that be used in such device I don't know? I
wouldn't know that even I were by trade the gunsmith since that description is all Spanish to me.
nbk2000 February 23rd, 2007, 10:17 PM

My paternal grandfather had something similiar that he'd fire off on the 4th.
It used 12 gauge shotgun shell blanks. Quite loud!
His was a manufactured item from before all the stupid gun laws, as he'd had it it all his life from his father, so it was from the 20's or 30's, maybe earlier, being all black cast-
iron, with red-painted iron wheels.
Also, used it for firing out cherry bomb and nigger chasers. Don't try that nowadays or the PC police will put you away for hate crimes or terr-er-ism.
c4goesbang February 24th, 2007, 11:59 PM

I have a BP cannon that sounds similar to the one you described. Mine is homemade. It is 8 inches from fuse to end of barrel. The bore is 50 cal.
Here is a pic of one of my other toys. A homemade BP mortar, 3 inch bore. With a little black powder or Pyrodex, it will send a can of beans into orbit.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/crmiller/bigboar0012.jpg

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Dangerous deadly weapon used
in school!
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Bert February 22nd, 2007, 04:01 P M

Further proof that people in som e parts of the USA have been interbreed ing with garden vegetable s.
http://www.lo cal6.com /news/11061248/detail.html
ultma February 22nd, 2007, 05:06 P M

So is that where American income tax goes.
Tim e a n d m oney well spent they should of sent that dangerous/psychotic individual to the chair :D
Alexires February 22nd, 2007, 07:02 P M

At first, I cou ldn't believe that this was true.
Hell, in school we made stuff way worse than th is and if this article is anything to go by, we could have been convicted of
m a k i n g a " d e a d l y w e a p o n " a n d "unauthorised firearm " and prob ably bee n done for "possession of unlicensed firearm". All that
from just ma k i n g p e n - g u n s t h at shot bits of alum inium foil....
Poor little bastard.
CACO3 February 22nd, 2007, 10:17 P M

A pencil would be a m ore "deadly" wea pon....
knowledgehungry February 23rd, 2007, 12:01 AM

Rarely do I advocate lawsuits, but that wom a n s h o u l d s u e t h e f u ck out of the C ounty and the school. That is one of the m ost
absurd things I have ever heard.
Shalashaska February 23rd, 2007, 12:05 AM

Hell, I'd just put a rubber band and bo bby pin together and I very probably m a y h a v e t a k e n a k i d ' s e y e o u t , a n d I j u s t g o t
detention. This kid's probably going to have this looming over him for life... som ething he did whe n h e w a s e l e v e n
Christ.......
nbk2000 February 23rd, 2007, 01:22 AM

It's all a part of the tam i n g o f t h e s h e e p l e .
The State that calls itself 'free ' can only weild its full power over crim i n a l s , t h u s e v e r y o n e m u s t b e m ade into a crim inal, or a
potential crim inal.
By m aking the kid a felon now, and getting rid of juvenille record sealing, they have forever denied him the right to own gun s
(which was never supposed to be taken from anyone, even ex-felons, but I digress), work for the vast m ajority of corporations
which are slowly locking everything in, becom e part of the legal system (lawyer, judge, cop), get elected, and on and on it
goes.
You'll also notice how you never hear of these sorts of things happening to kids with m oth ers names like 'Lewistein' or
'Goldberg'. W onder why?

Heheheh, NBK has been reading Ayn R and! Atlas Shrugged maybe?
The State that calls itself 'free ' can only weild its full power over crim i n a l s , t h u s e v e r y o n e m u s t b e m ade into a crim inal, or a
potential crim inal.
Jacks Complete February 23rd, 2007, 05:17 AM

That will be thrown out. There is no way that a 6m m airsoft pelle t can be considered a "lethal m issile." Not at rubber band
velocities. And not from an 11 year old, as where is the Mens R e a ?
Gerbil February 23rd, 2007, 10:09 AM

W hat the...
This world is becom ing even m ore crazy every day. W hen I was 11, I was m aking actual firearm s that fired steel ball bearings.
I g u e s s t h a t I ' d h a v e b e e n p u t on a charge of attem pte d m urder and locked away in juvenile?
spitting venom February 23rd, 2007, 08:27 PM

T h i s r e m i n d s m e o f s o m e o n e I m et. He was about that age when it happened, to o. Basically, he filled a crushed up ground
bloo m firework with gunpowder, less th an a quarter gram of it, and set it off. It m a d e a s m a l l b a n g , n o b i g d e a l . A f e w d a y s
later, three pigs arrested him at school. The charges? "Recklessly posessing and deploying an incendiary device." The kid from
the story may get off, he m ay not. I wouldn't be suprised if he didn't...
tmp February 23rd, 2007, 09:49 PM

W e can thank that bunch in particular for the id iotic laws that have popped
up around th e country. A lot of teachers don't like dealing with young boys
who sometim e s m i s b e h a v e i n c l a s s . T e a c h e r s a n s w e r : H e n e e d s t o b e p u t o n
Ritalin ! They also don't want to recognize the fact that boys are much
different than girls in their early years. It seems that the National Education
Association won't be happy un til all boys are medicated, castrated, or
indo ctrinated in fag lifestyles ! I also fucked around with spitballs and
r u b b e r b a n d g u n s i n e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l. The only thing the teachers ever did
back then was to confiscate m y "deadly weapon". And it's a felony now ?
Give m e a fu cking break !

[super rant]This is the view point of the teachers and "professionals" : In response to Colum b i n e W illiam P ollack director of
the "Center for Men" at Mclean Hospital and au thor of the best selling book on ra ising (fe)m a l e s c a l l e d R e a l B o y s s a y s , " T h e
boys in Littleton are the tip of the iceberg, and the iceberg is all boys".
This is what our culture has co me to. It is a culture where boys(men) are the problem , the cause of all evil in this world. This
m entality is why real m en are an endangered species in our country, the want tam e m e n b u t a r e a l m a n c a n n o t b e t a m e d . A
r e a l m a n h a s a g g r e s s i o n . T h e aggression to rape, or the aggression to stop a rapist. The aggression to be a serial killer or
track the serial killer down. Th e aggression to be a terrorist or the aggression to give up o nes life as a sold ier fighting them .
They want to em a s c u l a t e u s b e c a u s e a r e a l m a n is dangerous, but nothing in life worth having is n ot dangerous. Love is the
m ost dangerous thing on this earth, but generally agreed on as the highest thing as well. How m a n y p e o p l e h a v e b e e n k i l l e d
over the love of a wom an, the love of country or the love of God? But how many people's lives have been saved because of
love!?
A man is like a knife, in the hands of a street thug it ca n take life, but in the han ds of a surgeon it will brin g life! Or m ore
fittingly a m an is like an explosive it can kill innocent civilians or it can eject a pilot out of a plane saving his life, or inflate a n
airbag saving thousand of lives each year!
Men are not the problem, evil men are the problem, and the only thing able to stop an evil m an is a good man!
Am erica and the rest of the world will m ost likely fall to Islam an d C h i n a b e c a u s e b o t h c u l t u r e s r e c o g n i z e t h a t m e n a r e n o t
s o m ething to be caged or tam ed but their power harnessed for the "good" of their society.
For the love of God do not vote Hillary Clinton into office people, can you imagine the war she will bring against m en! A woman
who wants power, a wom en wh o h a s b e e n c h e a t e d o n , a wom an who m arried a m an whom she is stronger than! Never trust a
wom an who m arries a weaker man! Re gister Democrat and vote for Edwards, then if Hillary wins anyway vote Republican I do
not care how bad the Republican will be, it could even be Giuliani, but we must ne ver ever allow that wom an into the W hite
House!
[/super rant]
I a m terribly sorry for that but this topic is near and dear to m e, I was unable to do it justice with m y less than spectacular
writing skills, as well as it is 2 in the morning after a double shift of work.
Back on topic, I m odified a mechanical pencil to shoot airsoft pe llets in h igh school and shot kids with it in class for a little
bit(friends) I am fairly sure the teachers saw it and they never com plained.
My guess about the overreaction is due to the children being younger(which logically should m a k e t h e p u n i s h m e n t l e s s s e v e r e
but to a blee ding heart a young child being "hurt" is ine xscusable. i.e. th e principal who didn't allow children to play tag during
recess becau se they could get hurt.) O ne of the biggest lessons in life is to learn how to d eal with pain, not avoid it. W hat
better place to learn it than at school where teachers should be there to help you but not shield you from the lesson.
Beanspike February 28th, 2007, 04:18 PM

In kindergarten, I m a d e a ' k n ife' out of a broken hacksaw blade, a stick, and some electrician's ta pe, then brought it to school
for show-and -tell. All the teacher did was hold on to it until the school day ended.
I shudder to think of with what I could have been charged. :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Need Mathm atical Formula
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View Full Version : Need Mathmatical Formula
Bacon46 February 26th, 2007, 05:05 PM

I recently becam e board and decided to blow a microwave to pieces. (The one in m y kitchen took a dump) Part of this
m icrowave was launched straight up. It returned to earth 6 seconds later only a few feet from where it was launched.
I would like to know the form ula (or a link where I can find the formula) used to determ ine the vertical distance this object
traveled. I searched the internet with no luck
Any help would be greatly app reciated
Corona February 26th, 2007, 05:32 PM

Acce leration due to gravity = 9.8 m eters per second per second.
3 se c o n d s m a x h e i g h t attained would be 9.8 tim es 3 = 29.4 meters.
96 feet? Stra ight up? Really? W onder what can you do when you are not "board"?
Herro February 26th, 2007, 05:58 PM

A good form ula for th is, IIR C, would be X=Xo+VoT + (at^2)/2
W here X= distance; V= velocity; a= acceleration; and t= tim e. The small o's designate initial conditions.
Because the flight path is the sam e each way u p and down, you take time and cut it in half to solve for only one part of the
trajectory. So 6s beco mes 3s up and 3s down. So plug in the variables fo r going up:
X= 0 + 0*3 + (9.8m/s * (3)^2)/2
Here you'd get ~44m, which is around 144ft; im pressive.
Corona I don't think your units check out; acceleration is in meters per second per second , but mu ltiplying by secon ds would
yield m eters per seco nd, not m eters.

A c k ! F o r g o d s s a k e I u n l o c k e d t h e v a u l t o ' e v i l b o o k s a n d r e m o v e d m y physx book from cryogenic suspension in liq uid heliu m
inside a nullentropy chest :( Lets see here, cha pter 6, p rojectile m otion. I see trig... m ust get safety gear on... I can't
reproduce the theta sym bol in html code here, so I shall use (th eta).
A projectile is an obje ct that m oves in two dime nsions under the influence of only the gravitational force.
The start of a projectile's motion, be it thrown by hand or shot from a gun, is called the launch, and the angle (theta) of the
initial velocity vi above the horizontal is called the launch angle.
vix = vicos(theta)
viy = visin(th eta)
where vi is the initial speed
Now then, the hard part... Add ing gravity and such... reconfiguring the eq uation for unknown initial velocity...
x1 = (2v02sin(theta)cos(theta)/g)
Oh for the love of all that is good, a trig identity! Lord save me! Remem ber that 2sin(theta)cos(theta) = sin(2theta)
x1 = (v02sin(2theta)/g)
we know our x1, we want to solve for v0
v0 = sqrt(gx1/sin(2th e t a ) )
where g = 9.8 m/s2
where x1 = "a few feet" (you will have to measure this)
where (theta) is the angle you launche d your projectile (you will have to m e a s u r e t h i s t o o )
To find the h eight of your projectile you use:
yf = yi + viy(delta t) - 1/2g(delta t)2

where (delta t) is the change in tim e , 6 s e c o n d s
yi had better be zero and the object had better of fallen on the sam e horizontal plane or all these equations are invalid! yi is
the initial starting position, wh ich I assum e to be "the ground." The starting position does not have to be the physical ground,
but for the purposes of these equations whatever your initial starting height is m ust also be the final height.
Now then, all you nee d to do is supply the angle of your launch and the distance in METER S between the starting point and the
ending point. Meters, not feet m ind yo u. Plug in the num bers and you get your Y final, the height of your projectile. I suppose
you can fudg e your angle a little since that m ay be hard to determine... should be slightly less tha n 9 0 d e g r e e s .

W hat, no factoring in of air resistance, both up and down?
Calcuate the ballistic coefficient, probable angle of attacks, etc, and figure out how that effects your results! :p

W ell that shows how smart you are, everyone k nows they don't actually teach real physics in college. Air resistance and all th at
real world crap is ignored. W hy do you think they blew u p so many rockets at NASA? All those physics classes and th e only
thing I learned of pra ctical value is it is easier to pull a car out of a ditch by applying a force perpendicularly to a rope instead
of pulling on it.
Don't get m e started on the lack of real world usefulness of higher education, I tend to ram b l e a n d l o o k f o r s o m e o n e t o
punch. All that m oney only buys you credentials. The best education is the one you give yourself. That's why I have a stack of
books sitting next to me so I can learn what I really want to kno w, and why I keep my physics book locked away in cryogenic
suspension never to see the light of day except for the odd factoid or constant to satisfy the pedantic in m e .
W hile I am riled up, can anyone tell m e of a re al world application that would require you to integrate such equations as
t a n 3 ( x ) s e c 3 ( x ) ? H m m , if I co uld time travel back and kill Newto n there m ight be no physics or calculus to deal with :)

I spent 5 days a week in a 1 hour lecture and a 2 hour lab (once a week) for a year. W e met at the unholy collegiate hour of
7 : 0 0 A M . I r e m e m ber jackshit. 10 hours of required physics and I can't rem ember any of it. I've le arned more studying
ballastic coefficents and reloading procedures than I ever tempo rarily lea rned in those 2 courses.
I was good in upper calculus. I could do triple integrals in spherical cooridinates fairly easily, but what practical use do they
serve? Especially ones involving those goddamned trig functions.
W ould you need Newtonian physics to travel back in time? Or could you just skip straight to quantum mechanics and tem poral
theory? A goddam n p a r a d o x a n d n o o n e h a s e v e n t r a v e l l e d i n t i m e yet. :) :p

Thanks to everyone that replied.
It's a lot of work (for m e anyway) just to estim a t e t h e h e i g h t t h a t a p i e c e o f t i n t r a v e l e d , b u t a s Megalom a n i a s a i d T h e b e s t
education is t h e o n e you give yours elf.
I have learned more attempting to satisfy my curiosity about seem ingly useless facts such as this than I ever did in school.
Part of the reason could be in the late 60s and early 70s I had other things on my mind.
Dividing the tim e a l o f t e v e n l y a s C o r o n a s u g g e s t e d w a s m y first thought.
The link below is to an im age of the projectile at the m o m ent of launch. It appears to be hauling ass. For part of the assent
the object was traveling faster than it was at an y point in its descent.
I a m a s s u m ing the ride up to o k l e s s tim e t h a n t h e r i d e d o w n s o I s c r a p e d t h a t i d e a . B u t s i n c e I d o n t know the velocity and
Hauling Ass d o e s n t s e e m to work in a n y o f t h e e q u a t i o n s a n a p p r o x i m a t e d i s t a n c e i s a l l I a m goin g t o e n d up with anywa y .
I definitely have enough info to work with.
Thanks again for your help
http://img41 1 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 4 1 1 / 4 7 7 1 / a d i o s m icro wave000 1ol2.th.jpg (http://im g411.im a g e s h a c k . u s / m y . p h p ?
im age=adiosmicrowave0001ol2.jpg)
night33 February 27th, 2007, 08:14 PM

I m ust say I agree whole heartedly except for one area of study. Engineering will give you real life knowledge because the
professors (well m ost of them) will only teach you stuff that you can actually use. All other faculties are crap at teaching you
useful inform ation bu t I will defend engineering to the death about the u sefulness given to you (plus if you are in C a n a d a y o u
will get a kick ass stam p and iron ring).

Bacon, nice explosion. What did you use (if I m a y a s k ) ?

Air resistance to motion of a projectile, directed against the direction of m otion, varies approximately with the square of
velocity (at least in turbulent flow, which is usually the case - and I once worked o ut a form ula to describe the trajectory), and it
also varies according a friction form factor which is determined by the geom etry and surface roughness of the projectile. The
resu lting constant of proportio nality ha s t o b e e x p e r i m e ntally de termined.

P e r h a p s n e x t t i m e use a range finder to determine the height by taking a reading of the projectile at its apex and your
distance from the launch point to determine the final side of the triangle (i.e., the height). And then plug the numbers into
Pyth a g o r e a n T h e o r e m : a2+b2=c2, where c is the hypotenuse or longest side.
Check out:
http://www.cut-the-kn ot.org/pythagoras/index.shtm l
I think a laser range finder sh ould be able to "lock on" the flying object long enough to snatch a reading. You'll have to be
quick and m a y b e l e a d i t s o m e . T h e r e a d i n g w o u l d b e t h e h y p o t e n u s e ( l o ngest side) of the im agined triang le. The solve for the
heig ht. Don't forget to take th e square root of your result to get the final answer.

Bacon, nice explosion. What did you use (if I m a y a s k ) ?
Thanks!
5 6 g m o f K C l O 3 F l a s h i n a 2 ( 5 c m ) I D x 2 . 5 ( 6 . 3 5 c m ) O D x 1 0 ( 2 5 . 4 c m ) long Cardboard tube. End plugs where cardboard and
Plaster of Paris.

P e r h a p s n e x t t i m e use a range finder to determine the height by taking a reading of the projectile at its apex and your
distance from the launch point to determine the final side of the triangle (i.e., the height).
I think a laser range finder sh ould be able to "lock on" the flying object long enough to snatch a reading. You'll have to be
quick and m a y b e l e a d i t s o m e . T h e r e a d i n g w o u l d b e t h e h y p o t e n u s e ( l o ngest side) of the im agined triang le. The solve for the
heig ht. Don't forget to take th e square root of your result to get the final answer.
The first problem with that is I would have to place myself in a p otentially dangerous situation to e ven attem pt to track any
o f t h e d e b r i s / s hrapnel. I wasn t e v e n h o l d i n g t h e c a m e r a . I t w a s o n a t r i p o d a n d I w a s a p p r o x i m a t e l y 1 0 0 y a r d s ( 9 1 . 4 4
m eters) away behind my truck.
T h e s e c o n d p r o b l e m is there where hundreds of pieces of shrapnel of various sizes flying in all directions. I sometim e s h a v e
a h a r d t i m e picking a s p e c i f i c b i r d o u t o f a p a s s ing f lock when I am h u n t i n g a n d I m n o t w o r r i e d a b o u t o n e o f t h e m t a k i n g o f f
m y head.
T h e i m age below is of the larger pieces of the m icrowave that where recovered. I recovered around 100 smaller but still
potentially le thal pieces that are not shown.
http://img34 0 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 3 4 0 / 9 9 7 5 / i m gp3734dy1.th.jpg (http://im g340.im a g e s h ack.us/m y.php?

im a g e = i m g p 3 7 3 4 d y 1 . j p g )

You are right. It was just an idea. If you have a range finder for other pu rposes, you could try it with nothing lost. They can
range the distance easily, but the hard part would be in "hitting" the target.
The other idea I had would be placing a object of known height that would be expendable next to ground zero. Then if you
c a p t u r e t h e a p e x o f t h e l a u n c h e d i t e m a n d t h e i n d e x i n g o b j e c t i n t h e s a m e fram e , y o u c o u l d g e t a r e a s o n a b l e e s t i m a t e o f t h e
heig ht.
Bacon46 February 28th, 2007, 12:27 AM

Very true C h e m d u d e . A s l o n g a s the cam era a ngle is correct, even if I didn t c a p t u r e t h e a p e x I could determ ine the initia l
velocity of the projectile eliminating a m ajor unknown.
I feel another experim ent com ing on.:D
I a m all out of m i c r o w a v e s b u t I d o h a v e a c o m p u t e r I m n o t u s i n g !

I f y o u h a v e a v i d e o c a m e r a o n a tripod, finding the height is easy, as long as you can see the projectiles apex on the video.
After the explosion, without m oving the cam era, rewind the tape and note where the apex is on the cam era m onitor (not
eyepiece).
Then, with a ballon tethered to the gro und at the launch site, raise it until the ballon is at the same height on the m onitor as
the projectile s apex. Recover the ballon and measure the length of tether used. That's the projectiles m a x h e i g h t .
This assumes you have a helper to handle the ballon and there's no wind.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > IP Switching Script
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View Full Version : IP Switching Script
Chaosmark March 1st, 2007, 11:33 PM

I rem ember a while b a c k s o m e o n e h a d t a l k e d a b o u t a n d g i v e n a l i n k t o a s c r i p t o f s o m e sort that changed t h e I P a d d r e s s t h a t
you broadcasted as you browsed, but I cannot find the thread after roughly 2 hou rs of searching EVERYW HERE.
D o e s a n y o n e r e m e m ber the topic I'm referring to?
Chopper March 3rd, 2007, 09:18 PM

Nup, sorry. Never saw the thread.
If you're on a WinXP based pc, writing one yourself is an absolute snap. It'll take you less than a m inute!!
1)Open up notepad and enter this one line:
ipconfig /renew
2)Save the file as a NewIP.bat and tha t's it. - just m a k e s u r e n o t e p a d d o e s n ' t a d d t h e . t x t e x t e n s i o n t o t h e e n d .
Alternately, you could just goto Start, Run and then type in ipconfig /renew.
Chaosmark March 4th, 2007, 12:50 AM

Eh, that's all fine and good, but the one I was referring to was a plug-in for Firefox/one of the other OS bro wsers. I'm m a k i n g
a switch to Linux som etime within the near futu re, so the browse r version would be better.
I'm not sure if the plug-in actually changed the IP you had, or if it just broadcasted different ones constantly. Chances are I
could work one up, but I've not really got the tim e t o d o s o , a n d if there's already one out there, why waste tim e reinventing
the wheel?
Chopper March 4th, 2007, 09:14 AM

Uh-huh. So is it a plugin or a script? Can't be both, gotta be one or the other. If it's a plugin, then it wouldn't be OS portable
anyway - unless you had the source and re-com piled it..
In any case, it's really no m ore of a big deal to get a newie in unix anyway. Dunno really what you mean about broadcasting a
different IP addr constantly. Your IP is your IP, it's the addr used to connect you to a LAN/MAN/WAN/VPN etc.
Each tim e y o u s e n d a request for a page or other data, your IP is inserte d i n t o t h e h e a d e r o f e a c h p a c k e t . T h i s i s d o n e b y

software waaay beyond the reach of a browser. That gets done at Layer 3 of the OSI m odel. The browser operates at layer 7 .
Layer 7 cannot com m unicate with any other layer. Basically, it's not gunna happen.
Besides - even if you could fake the IP addr in that hea der, whatever data you wanted wouldn't com e back to you since it wo uld
be sent to th e I P a d d r that you faked.
The way to do it is to get a ne w IP. This either happens when your lease expires, or when you explicitly ask for it to be expired
a n d a n e w o n e i s s u e d . T h i s i s p o s s i b l e in both W indows and Unix (linux).
Can't tell ya how to write the script to use in linux, it's been more than 10 years since I've touched the thing. But he r e ' s a p a g e
that'll show you the com m a n d s n e e d e d a n d t h e w o r k a r o u n d s t o g e t p a s t t h e c a c h e t h a t s t o r e y o u r l a s t u s e d I P a d d r .
Sorry I can't give you anything closer to what you're ask ing for. In anycase, if you 're about to hit linux, then you'd b etter get
ready for a lot m ore console work anyway...:p
SuSE Forum - Get new IP addr (http://forum s . s u s e l i n u x s u p p o r t . d e / l o f i v e r s i o n / i n d e x . p h p / t 1 1 5 1 5 . h t m l )
Then of course there's proxies - but th ey're a whole different beast altogether...;)
ShadowMyGeekSpace March 4th, 2007, 05:20 PM

He's talking about a rotating proxy list, probably tor or steganos.
Bugger March 4th, 2007, 09:24 PM

That "ipconfig /renew" script trick, in either the com mand line or a BAT file, does not work at all! If you want to change your IP
a d d r e s s , a n d h a v e a d y n a m ic (DNS) IP address, not a static one , all you have to do is to disconnect from the internet, e.g. by
turning your m oden off, for a second or two, then reconnect. You can also use proxy servers to configure your browser or
download client with, updated lists by country of which are at www.proxy4free.com and www.samair.ru , but n ot all of them allow
file downloasds or connections to FTP sites, and they do not seem to work with Internet Explorer 6 or 7.

Y e s , a s i m ple script, especially a bat file, isn't going to work.
I f y o u w a n t t o c h a n g e y o u r I P a d d r e s s , a n d h a v e a d y n a m ic (DNS) IP address, no t a static one, all you have to do is to

disconnect from the internet, e.g. by turning yo ur moden off, for a second or two, then reconnect.
W ould hitting the reset or standby button do th e s a m e? I've always wondered this on cable modem s .
Corona March 8th, 2007, 06:42 AM

If you have Firefox, install the Torbutton. Then go to Tor's webpage...
http://tor.eff.org/index.htm l.en
... and get their latest Tor & Privoxy & Vidalia bundle. Proxy and Torbutton is included in the packa ge (in case you didn't install
it before).
Your IP changes every 2 m inu tes or so. And you'd better have DSL (at least 256k b in m y experience... it doesn't lik e to work
with anything less) or something because thing s can get slow som etim e s .
Don't use Torpark. And don't use it to download stuff. That would be abusing this wonderful tool.
James March 14th, 2007, 03:02 PM

I'm pretty su re he wants TO R and privoxy. Tor would proxy his web session through rem ote m achines (disg u i s i n g h i s I P ) a n d
privoxy would strip identifying markers. (you might want to turn off privoxy before hitting em ail and ecom m erce site s) It will
however require a Kerebos(sp?) enabled browser.
(rant)
DNS is a protocol for converting hostna m e s i n I P a d d r e s s e s , T h e re is a reverse DNS which converts IPs into hostnam e s ( H a n d y
if yo u want to privlege finns or block AOLers), but it has alm ost *NOTHING* to do with dyn a m i c I P s .
The protocols you were thinking of were probab y DHCP (for ethernet, DSL, cable modem s e t c ) a n d P P P ( f o r a n a l o g p h o n e
m odems, ick ). C h a n g i n g I P s v i a D H C P r e f r e s h / P P P l o g o ut/login would no t change the issu er of the IP (Your ISP). It would be
equivalent to giving the lions your neighbourho od.
(/raat)
FUTI March 14th, 2007, 04:12 PM

W ould hitting the reset or standby button do th e s a m e? I've always wondered this on cable modem s .
W hen working with Rapidshare downloads from home la st year I tried turning cable m o d e m on/off (brute force way power off/
on way not unm ount/m o u n t t y p e a c t i o n ) . I t s e e m s t h a t m o d e m is set to logon to server where it gets new IP num ber by
default (which is naturally in 99,99% cases different then the previous one you've got). So it might work. I don't know has
Rapidshare find the way to counteract this actio n by cutting-off a ll dynam ic IPs. Anyway Jam es is right it only screw your
neig hbours.:(

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Teflon Sep. Funnel/Buret
Stopcocks vs Glass
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View Full Version : Teflon Sep. Funnel/Buret Stopcocks vs Glass
Xenodius March 2nd, 2 007, 03:25 PM

Hello all.
I a m curious, W hat chem icals do I need to be wary of if I use a Teflon stopcock in a sep funnel versus a glass stopcock? And
also, will a glass stopcock seal as well as a Teflon? I am looking at these eBay fu n n e l s :
Sep funnel, Glass Sto pcock, 250m l (http://cgi.ebay.com /Glass-Separatory-Sep-Funnel-Gla ss-Stopcock-250m l-

New_W 0 Q Q i t e m Z 2 8 0 0 0 5 4 5 3 1 7 0 Q Q ihZ018Q Q c a t e g o r y Z 2 6 4 0 8 Q Q t c Z p h o t o Q Q cm dZViewItem )
Sep funnel, Teflon stopcock, 250ml (http://cgi.ebay.com/Glass-Separatory-Sep-Funnel-PT FE-Teflon-Stopcock-250-
m l_W 0 Q Q i t e m Z 2 7 0 0 0 5 6 3 3 0 9 2 Q Q ihZ017Q Q c a t e g o r y Z 2 6 4 0 8 Q Q t c Z p h o t o Q Q cm dZViewItem )
Don't know which size buret I will get but probably one that has the sam e stopcock as the sep. funnel, whichever I decide with
your direction.
Any other suggestions or tips regarding initial purchases for a beginning pyrotechnic chemist would be very appreciated.
I will be purchasing all the glassware and tools for m y soon-to-be lab soon, including burn er, brushes, pipettes, buret(s), sep
funnels, slim chance at a Sohxlet extractor, sta nds, wire heating gauze, wash bottles, test tubes/tongs, Grad. cylinders,
beakers, maybe fleakers,(Love saying that) Florence and/or Erlenmeyer flasks, and slim chance at distillation apparati, if not
then I will just get a retort, etc, etc...
Essentially everything for a ba sic (Econ omy :) ) lab. I plan on making Picric acid for sure, and probably HMTD since I have a
p o u n d o f p u r e h e x a m ine, m aybe Acetone Peroxide, Nitroglycerin in the future, an d I a l s o h a v e e n o u g h c h e m s f o r 3 k g o f f l a s h .
(Keepin' it to like, 15g/trial :D)
( I h a v e a s e p a r a t e b u i l d i n g f r o m m y house to be entirely devoted to such a thing ... only like... ~20'x15'x15' though. Its
currently full of junk, and needs new siding, but will get a complete overhaul soon.)
T h a n k y o u f o r a n y a n d a l l h e l p ful replies. I did search fo r "stopcock" and "stopcocks" but d idn't get anything relevant... O bscure
question. :ro lleyes:
Bert March 2nd, 2 007, 04:51 PM

You might want to browse Lab-X auctio ns. http://www.labx.com /v2/newad .cfm ?catID=59&MainCatID=4
nbk2000 March 2nd, 2 007, 05:58 PM

A Teflon sep funnel is impervious to anything you'll ever put in it, so don 't worry. Avoid glass if you can afford Teflon.
chemdude1999 March 2nd, 2 007, 05:59 PM

Teflon is pretty im pervious to alm ost everything. I've ra n h e x a n e s , b e n z e n e a n d a l l t h e a c i d s t h r o u g h t e f l o n s t o p c o c k s . I ' m not
sure if acetone would degrade teflon, though. It might m ake it brittle.
I ' v e u s e d a l l g l a s s b e fore and ended up retrofitting everything to teflon. MUCH easier to work with. Sim p l e t o r e m o v e a n d c l e a n
and no grease. You can get just the stopcocks if needed to retrofit your older purchases. Research the chem icals if you are not
sure though. Perchloric acid doesn't like anything, for exam ple.
As for other purchases, if you can afford a chiller, get one. It can save your butt from runaway reactions. If not, get som e
varying sized tubs and beakers for ice baths. C heck out ice mak ers. I go od quality heat-p late/stirrer is goo d to have, too.
Look for a cheap oven along with a freezer and fridge.
You probably really don't need burets, yet. But get A-class (B's aren't anym ore accurate than Mohr pipettes). I'd recom m e n d
10-50 m Ls to start.
C o n d e n s a t i o n c o l u m ns are nice to have and ne cessary for a lot of stuff. Exam ine the methods of distillation for the com p o u n d
you what to work with. You can usually put something together with what you have.
I would also recomm end not falling into the trap of buying expensive stu ff because "real" labs use it. "Real" labs use it
because it has to be certified and they need a chain back to the standards for legal reasons. For that reason, check out som e
of the Pyrex cookware. Excellent borosilicate glass for less than labware costs.
One last thin g: Build a good quality bench to work on. Build your own, un less you can find a closing lab. Ring stands are
necessary too. You can m ake your own if you h ave to.
megalomania March 2nd, 2 007, 07:54 PM

Glass stopcocks m ust have grease to work properly, and that grease can contam inate or react with whatever you run through it.
That's why glass stopcocks have fallen into disuse.
T h e s h o u l d b e c h e m ical compatibility charts for teflon available by searching on the Intern et.
Xenodius March 3rd, 2007, 05:12 PM

Everyone:
Okay, so teflon it is! Thankyou very much! :D I was erring on glass, not for cost reasons, but just because it sounded like it
would be sim pler/easier to use... >.> :o
c h e m d u d e 1 9 91:
T h a n k y o u f o r t h e s u g gestions... an ice -m aker is the one thing I really would like to get since m y future lab is at lea st 120'
from m y hou se, and I don't like the idea of ferrying several ice-trays from our fridge.
A s f a r a s a b e n c h , I a m d e f i a n t l y g o i n g t o d e v o t e m o s t o f m y l a b t o a l o n g , s i t t i n g h e i g h t b e n c h a n d a c o m fy PC chair! :cool:
Only thing is I am deciding about what to top it with-- Granite would be ideal, obviously, but I am probably going to go with 18"
tiles, which while the grout and stuff is stainable etc, 18" between grout makes it a pretty good working surface, great for
recovering spills of solids, etc...
Lastly, my only regret about a hotplate/stirrer is the ~$300 price tag... Particularly when the innards are so exceedingly sim ple.
I p l a n n e d o n m aking a DIY PC-fan stirrer, and I planned on using a old electric stovetop for a hotplate, but both together is
another thing entirely.
Lastly, being 15 (gasp!) I don 't have a whole ton of cash available, howe ver I am very soon, long story short, going to m a k e
$ 3 0 0 0 - $ 3 , 5 0 0*, out of which I will take about 400 bucks to invest into my lab.)
(*For those who think I am lying, I am selling a '95 Ford Explorer that some tard sold for $500, only took $200 to get it up
and runnin :D :D :D )
chemdude1999 March 3rd, 2007, 05:59 PM

Tiles would m a k e a g o o d a l l a round surface. Stick with white or something light-colored an d uniform. Keep your grout joints
tight. The biggest part of laying tile on counters is the underlayment. Make sure you give it plenty of stiffness. They have
m ortar additives that you can replace the water you wou ld norm ally use. I've used them and they are worth it. They give the
tile som e flex without breaking.
I would use either 4"x4" glass or porcelain tiles. Or, use larger 1 2 inch sealed ceram ic tiles.
Also, you m ay want to dedicate some table sections to specific surfaces like steel plate for flam e resistance and heavy work. If
you can find asbestos that would be great. Look for old shingles. The only bad thing abou t tile, is that it won't give at all. So , if
you dropped glassware it would shatter easily. Maybe keep som e sink pads laying around just in case.
As for the ho t-plate stirrer, look on Ebay. You can find them n i c e a n d c h e a p s o m e t i m e s . I c e - m a k e r s a r e n ' t c h e a p e i t h e r , s o
take a look in classifieds and things like that.
Enkidu March 3rd, 2007, 06:01 PM

Lastly, my only regret about a hotplate/stirrer is the ~$300 price tag.
I purchased m y Corning hotplate/stirrer on eBa y f o r $ 1 2 0 I I R C . I t h e a t s u p t o 5 0 0 C a n d h a s s e r v e d m e well. You could get

one for m uch less (500C is a bit excessive ;)). On a sid e note, I noticed that you said you weren't planning on getting any
distillation equipm ent. IMHO, this apparatus is very im portant unless you have access to pure reagents (e.g., nitric acid) or you
are m ore interested in, say, pyrotechnics than HEs.
eBay is a valuable resource to keep forefront in your m ind when your are a s s e m b ling your laboratory. LabX is anoth er valuable
site; unfortunately, the cost of item s a uctioned/sold there is generally much more than a similar item b e i n g s o l d o n e B a y .
L a b X d o e s h a v e a w i d e r , d e e p er selection of lab equipm ent, so you can buy just about anything that you want if you have th e
m oney.
nbk2000 March 3rd, 2007, 06:17 PM

W e h a v e m e m bers who have already been whe re you've yet to go. UTFSE would reveal solutions to your problem s.
Build your own stirrer-heating m antle, using Brainfevers tutorial here:
http://www.geocities.com/brainfevert/heatstir.html
And don't use tile or anything else porous, shatterable, or with cracks/cre vices/joints. Oh, and flam m a b l e i s b a d t o o .
A sh eet of stainless-steel is ideal in every respect.
megalomania March 3rd, 2007, 11:28 PM

A l a b h o t p l a t e * s h o u l d * b e d e s i g n e d t o b e c o m patible with a m agnetic stirrer, m eaning you can stick the hotplate on top of the
stirrer and get the best of both. I have several hotplates (the hemispherical ones for RB flasks), but alas o nly the one m a g
stirrer, no com bo units, and they work fine together.
I was fortunate enough to obtain several lab ta bles from a local school that closed down. Those tables are the heavy duty ones
with the special chemical resistant surface. The cost a fortune new, free is more in line with my price range.
I know I have seen in an old book about building your own lab how to chem ically treat wood to make a lab benchtop. Basicially
you want something to resist chemical corrosion, which m a k e s p l a i n w o o d a n d a n y m etal a no no. Your best bet would be a
slate top if you can get it, or the special treated table tops m ade for labs. Alas wood should be a far m o r e e x p e d i e n t c h o i c e a s
a "topper" th at can be disposed of periodically (think plywood).
W ithout a treated surface you must m aintain impeccable cleanin g standards: clean up all spills asap.
Xenodius March 4th, 2007, 12:38 AM

Chem dude/Enkidu:
I appreciate the input-- Particularly eBay Hotplate/stirrers (DUH!) and also on that m ortar adhesive additive.
nbk:
I did search-- but searching again m o r e t h o r o u g h l y , n o e x c u s e f o r m i s s i n g s o m e of the articles. I apologize, and
sim ultaneously thank you for the link to Brainfevers site-- although I cant com ment on the content yet since its blocked.
(Internet 'security' software)
M e g a l o m a n i a : I d i d n ' t r e a l i z e t h a t a m agnetic stirrer could stir through a hotplate... I am l o o k i n g a t a $ 2 8 h o t p l a t e o n l a b -

stuff.com , but I think I will watch eBay very carefully for neglecte d auctions, try to get a com b o f o r a r e a s o n able price.
Thankyou all for your input, I feel perfectly straightened out and set on a road for explosions. I don't think I will need to
bother anyone with questions for a very long tim e.
H a h a , a n d m y friends were m e s m erize d for an hour when I threw Cu(II)Cl on a bonfire... cant wait to make s o m e prim ary
explosives, that would be an absolute racket. :cool: :D :rolleyes:
Chris The Great March 6th, 2007, 05:18 AM

H e m e a n s a h e a t i n g m antle, not a traditional hotplate, if I unde rstand correctly.
Buy the hotplate stirrer, it is som ething I really wish I had. It just makes everything so m uch easier! And get the distillation
setu p, to ma ke nitric acid. Except for som e beakers (simply for their excellent therm al durability) you can really im provise the
rest if you want too.
Although I have done quite a lot of work in the past with just jam jars and a little ingenuity... it rea lly does m a k e e v e r y t h i n g s o
m uch easier when you have purchased the proper tools for the job. I was so happy when I first used m y separatory funnel to
m ake nitro, it was so quick an d easy com pared to trying to carefully siphon off layers or using syringes or pipettes etc. It
wasn't NEEDED but it m a d e t h e s e p a r a t i o n a n d w a s h i n g s o m u c h e a s i e r .
One thing I thought I would suggest for the lab bench, as I will soon be trying it myself, is using a plastic m at used to protect
carpets. Bein g cheap, soft and easily cleaned, I think that they m ight be a great cover. Plus, if it gets ruine d, it is easily
replaced with a new one. Right now I am using newspap er which is workin g decently enoug h, but a plastic cover that can be
easily cleane d and rem oved would see mingly b e i d e a l .
Glassware won't break that easily on it either, since they have lots of stubs on the bottom to grip the carpet- these would seem
like they would be perfect to help reduce im pact of drop ped glassware. I'll give it a try hopefully next weekend (lab cleaning
week) and see if it works as well as I hope it does. Or just works I guess... better than what I have right no w.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Newbie "Adventures"
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cnote March 3rd, 2007, 01:47 AM

OK hopefully posting this in the water Cooler will save m e from from the fiery dep ths in which NBK slum b e r s . B e f o r e a n y o n e
asks I used TFSE for the water cooler searching for Medeco and Lock picking. I found noth ing that seem ed sufficient enough
for this kind of post. Hey maybe this m ight be a new thread for Newbies such as m yself to freely post and discuss our
"Adventures" so to speak.
Anyhow I am an amateur picker w/ a 1 3 piece Southord set. I've picked a few locks in m y short picking tim e, but the other
nigh t after a little night cap I got a little board. To m ake a story already too long for a Newbie short I picked m y first Medeco
the other nig ht. Now it might have been attached to a washer, and it m ight have had around 30 bucks in it can't rea lly
r e m e m ber. Well I kept the bo x for further exam ining and "practice". It gets better the funny thing is I can't pick the dam n
thing again to save m y life. I took it apart and picked it up to 3 pins(its a 5 pin I believe removable core cam lock) in case
anyone is interested.
I'm going to try the b ump method as soon as I can get a blank through the mail. I will post any new Info I can provide on this
working on the Medeco since it is believed to be im p o s s i b l e o n m o s t m odels. I hope that posting this in the cooler will spare
m y Newbie ass and m aybe get a few opinions not that I'm askin g for anything just sharing fellas.
nbk2000 March 3rd, 2007, 06:39 AM

I s u p p o s e w i t h e n o u g h r a n d o m p o k e i n g any lock can be m a d e t o o p e n .
But so what?
I t h a s t o b e r e p e a t a b le at will, or it's useless.
Now, the m e d e c o c a m l o c k s a r e n o t t h e s a m e a s t h e m edeco locks used in doors. The cam lock has a single vertica l row of two
hole s for the sidebar pin to fit into, only one of which is the correct one, the other being a shallow 'false' ho le to com plicate
picking.
W ith a tool called a 'By-Passal', you ca n torque the cylinder enough to just crush that pesky sidebar into m ush, freeing the
cylin der to tu rn.
BTW , UTFSE on ALL sections o f the Forum , not just the W ater C ooler. ;)
lock March 11th, 2007, 02:29 PM

T h e b u m p k e y m ethod won't do anything unless you kn ow the sidebar angles. Medeco's u se a rotating pin design, which can't
b e b u m p e d u n l e s s y o u k n o w t h e s i d e b ar angles. To understand how m edeco's work, go to http://demo.me d e c o . c o m / i n d e x -
forPopUp.html
F o r e x a m p l e , a 3 p i n m e d e c o m i g h t h a v e p i n h eights of 456, an d a sidebar code of LRC. (Left, right and center, representing
which way the pins are rotated ) You could theoretically bump this lock with a 999LR C Key, but not with a 999CCC key, or a
999LRR key.
The good news is that in a lot of comm ercial system s that use m edeco throughout, they m ight have differe nt key codes, but
all the sidebar codes will be the sam e. So, in your theoretical laundrom at, the locks might all have different keys, but they
m ight all use the LRC sidebar cuts. So, for that particular system , cutting a 999LR C key would allow you to bum p all of the
locks.
Hope this m a k e s s e n s e .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Acetone peroxide - HELP
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209 March 3rd, 2007, 03:38 PM

I was just in the garage making AP and I noticed that the HCl looked a little yello wy. I didnt take any notice of it bu t now I can
see that the liquid in the beaker looks really yellowy. Should I dum p the solution or is this normal??
2 minutes later: The AP crystals have already started fo rm i n g o n t h e b o t t o m o f t h e b e a k e r, m y HMTD takes all night to form a
couple crysta ls - what is going on??
mike16 March 3rd, 2007, 04:22 PM

I don't know why your HC I was yellow, m aybe it reacted with som ething in the measuring cylinder?
I rem ember a while b a c k w h e n I m a d e a batch of NG, I measured out the H2SO4 in an old but clean glass m easuring jug, The
H2SO 4 turned bright yellow!, I don't know why, but I used it anyway and it worked fine for the NG, no problems at all.
A l s o i f y o u a r e u s i n g a b o v e 3 0 % H 2 O 2 , the AP crystals should start form i n g a s s o on as yo u a d d t h e a c i d , I u s e 3 5 % H 2 O 2 a n d

as soon as I start dripping in the H2SO4, the AP im m edietly starts forming.
209 March 3rd, 2007, 05:22 PM

Nice! Thanks Mike16!
I used Brian's AP formula (budget pyro) I calculated the volumes of requ ired reactants and mixed them (I am using 35% HCl)
and the crystals started forming right away.
The yellow tinge in the HCl created a yeild of colourful AP! Maybe the HCl is just o ld, whatever the reason, It turned out fine,
drying it now, thanks again.

Impurities in AP= unnescessary risk. U se or get rid of the AP ASAP.
festergrump March 4th, 2007, 02:51 AM

I'd be willing to bet you used alot more HCl than is needed for the reaction if you see crystals form ing im m e d i a t e l y a n d s e e
any tint to th e solutio n.
Keep it cool and neutralize the acid very well when finished reacting... and like Knowledgehungry says: Use it soon or get rid of
it.
Now, before you start anew... READ READ READ!
c.Tech March 6th, 2007, 04:15 AM

W h e n I a d d m y HC l to the acetone/H2O 2 m ix it also turns yellow. After som e time I get a cake of yellow/white crystals at the
bottom that I then wash with bicarbonate solution, this turns them a pure white.
I a s s u m e the instant colour change is because of a contaminant in the H2O2 but it never affects m y final p roduct.
I actually find the colour change quite useful because when the crystals are white I know they are neutral

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Hack attack on server of
s c i e n c e m a d n ess.org/talk
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A few hours ago, there was a hack attack on the server hosting the Sciencem a d n e s s f o r u m , www.sciencemadness.org/talk
There is currently a m essage on that page to that effect. Polverone is trying to rem edy it.

Good thing I backed up the LANL reports on rapidshare and m y com puter. I imagine there are other copies, though. Hopefully
they get back up soon. Good site, although it is no roguesci.org. ;)
209 March 4th, 2007, 10:55 PM

yeah... I noticed that, I was there yesterday an d saw it was hack ed by a couple people. I was going to post about it but then
thought better of it :o .
I hope we arn't next!:mad: :m a d :
tmp March 5th, 2007, 02:48 AM

Sounds like a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do. Maybe some
people familiar with h acking can get to gether and return the favor. Nobody's
b o a r d s h o u l d c o m e under attack sim p l y b e c a u s e s o m e idiots know they can
do it unless of course it's reve n g e .

I recently downloaded an archive of sciencem a d n e s s , b i g g e r t h e n 6 g i g , I t r i e d t o m a k e a p o s t o n t h e f o r u m t h a t
www.sciencem a d n e s s . o r g h a s a l i n k t o d i s c u s s i n g t h e cras h but it wouldn t let m e p o s t .
If th ere is any m i s s i n g d a t a y o u m a d s c i m embers notice when sciencem a d n e s s c o m e s b a c k u p p l e a s e g i v e m e a y e l l b e c a u s e

I m ay be able to help restore it.
I s u g g e s t p e o p l e u s e a f r e e p r o g r a m c a l l e d W in HTTracker to copy the m o s t u s e f u l w e b s i t e s , b e c a u s e n e x t t i m e a g r e a t

website goes down, it could be the governm ent and we will probably never see it again.
Be sure to m ake HTTracker ignore robot txt rules, they always seem to screw with m y downloads.
D o n t r a p e t h e w e b s i t e s b y downlo ading them at m a x s p e e d , p u t l i m itations on.
http://www.m yzips.com /softwa re/HTTracker.phtm l
akinrog March 5th, 2007, 06:53 AM

If th ere is any m i s s i n g d a t a y o u m a d s c i m embers notice when sciencem a d n e s s c o m e s b a c k u p p l e a s e g i v e m e a y e l l b e c a u s e
I m ay be able to help restore it.
I don't think it will be necessary since Polverone says he is able to download data b a s e a n d c h a n g e the adm in passwords.
M o r e o v e r h e a l s o s a y s i t ' s s e e m s t o b e a n a t t a c k n o t t o specific to sm but entire hosting company. Regards.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > John Hutchinson
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DONMAN March 5th, 2007, 01:22 AM

This guy is doing some amazing stuff! He is a physicist who has found ways to destabilize the structure of metals and he has created zero point energy batteries. He is
discredited in the scientific community due large to his appearance and the fact that he self taught.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKa1g2PxAuE
There has been lots of shifty government action with him. Such as a raid on his house, for his collection of antique guns in which they felt they had to take pictures of all of his
equipment. He also once had his whole lab take away from him when he was working for the government.
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8863/index.html
Here is some his footage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BR8Ac7hxbg
More documentaries
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcwUDtzVJ4g
What do guys think?
Match March 5th, 2007, 01:05 PM

Hutchison effect:I don't know what to believe, I want to believe... but I haven't been convinced. If what the government is doing to him is true... I hope they leave him alone.

Yeah. I heard about the so called Hutchinson effect. Make metal objects float and melt at room temperature using special electromagnetic fields. Quite interesting. The scientific
"elite" says the results couldn't be recreated and so their aren't "valid". Hell if that guy can do that one time out of thousand tries he's a genius....
nbk2000 March 5th, 2007, 05:40 PM

Make metal objects float and melt at room temperature using special electromagnetic fields.
Magnetic levitation and inductive heating are well-known.
Chris The Great March 5th, 2007, 11:45 PM

He better hope it makes unlimited energy if he wants to keep all his electronics running!
DONMAN March 5th, 2007, 11:57 PM

But that is just it, he can make non-metalic objects float. It is not induction, because the metals temperature doesn't rise.
The guy has imbedded wood in aluminum. He has in fact created batteries that never go flat. Japan commissioned him to make one 40,000 volt one but, it blew up. Really
give this guy a throe looking at.
I wonder how he is making his batteries....

I think the statement "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" applies here. If he can't reproduce his findings in controlled experiments in front of impartial
observers, then it should all be considered a hoax until he can.
Still, like Match said, the government needs to butt out of his life.

That is what I find odd... why does the government keep harassing him? His batteries do work though..... proven
malzraa March 7th, 2007, 01:41 AM

Generally, ideas of massive scientific value are repressed and denied by the religious mainstream, not the scientific one. If he discovered something, then he should present a
falsifiable hypothesis. Any less, and this is all just snake oil.

Where is the proof that his batteries work? Even if his batteries do work, unless they never run out his batteris could just be a chemical battery, as he puts "magic" chemicals
into the battery, MnO2 and Zinc?

In the TV documentary he and his critics also claimed that he wasn't yet been able to reproduce the experiments with the exact same results. Ofcourse, I must add, the
laboratory equipment I have seen him using wasn't quite what a researcher would call high-tech. Someone, give this guy some money, so he can proove what he claims, or
fail.

Until I see hard evidence and an explanation from beginning to end that can be verified completely with the scientific method, I'll remain very skeptical. Free energy and its
derivatives has sucked many a man's life.
As Homer Simpson scolded his daughter Lisa after she made a perpetual motion machine, "In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"
Hirudinea March 7th, 2007, 08:32 PM

His batteries do work though..... proven
...unless they never run out...
I've heard him say that his batteries do last forever, and if that is the case, why isn't he rich from selling them?
Chris The Great March 7th, 2007, 09:31 PM

Obviously, it's a conspiracy against him by the government! :rolleyes:
I mean, come on, "ancient Egyption battery"? There is a point where implausible becomes ridiculous and laughable.

I would like to see a more through investigation into his methods. As Hatal said I would also like to see someone hand him a sweaty wad of cash.
Evolutionist March 8th, 2007, 03:21 AM

His batteries do work though..... proven
Honestly, how could you prove that? Has anyone been given one of these batteries and seen if it could run forever.
I would love to believe this is true that he came up with free energy, but why dosen't he just shut everyone up by doing a demonstration of the battery running something for
an extremely long time.
It just dosen't add up why this guy is sitting on something so lucrative and not cashing in on it, or even effectively showing it to the scientific community.

Even if it were to be true, do you really think that you would be allowed to have such technology? We live in a disposable and wasteful society for a reason. When things run
out you must buy more. This is what drives the economy.
How many self-rejuvenating or omnipotent batteries could be sold before everyone has one? What to do then? It's the same with the common cold, pharmaceutical companies
and the FDA... and why they constantly pump out the pills to treat the symptoms and never offer the cure.
TreverSlyFox March 8th, 2007, 08:05 AM

Hmmm, well something is definitely "going on" otherwise the Canadian Government wouldn't be playing games with him. Why would a Prime Minister order the confiscation of
his equipment? That's a pretty big jump for a Government to pull knowing the Press it's going to receive.
Come in and raid the place for an "Antique Gun Collection" that they've gone over before and been made to return. Some shadowy guy goes in and takes extensive pictures of
his lab, no warrant, no cause, can't find the original complaint, all of a sudden the guns are returned, government ignores 2 court orders.
Somebody in Government is afraid of something this guy is doing and most likely they are being prodded on by business interests to do it. Wouldn't surprise me some day this
guy commits "suicide" or is killed in a "mugging" or "accident".
sdjsdj March 8th, 2007, 08:29 AM

. . . Or he's been conning idiots into investing in this 'new technology'.
If he wants credibility, he should be submitting a paper detailing his methods to a reputable scientific journal for peer review. I strongly suspect he's a crank, but if not a Nobel
prize is in the bag.
hatal March 8th, 2007, 11:34 AM

He wouldn't be the first scientist who doesn't get any appritiation from the scientific community. (maybe) He discovered something that a lot of academic egghead with their
sh*tload of degrees couldn't. Just a bunch of vague theories. Tesla understood electricity like no other could before. He performed incredible experiments just like Hutchinson
and still he died as a poor man. Took his ideas and invention to the grave, and we still can't figure out how did it (for example long distance wireless energy transfer; I hope
thats what its called). My point is the lot of outstanding researcher only gained publicity and appritiation after they died and someone applied their work in practice (in return for
the hard-cash). Time will tell...
P.S: How can you verify if something "runs" forever??

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Additives for chlorate/perchlorate cells
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in_flames March 5th, 2007, 07:29 AM

I will soon be building a electrolytic perchlorate cell and I was wondering what are the best chemicals to add to improve current efficiency.
While browsing other threads I have seen that (per)sulphate, fluoride and (di)chromate can be used but don't go into much detail.
I was wondering if anyone could comment on how well each of these or other chemical additives work to improve efficiency and in what concentrations they should be added.
My cell plan will most likely be a glass jam jar with a platinum wire anode and titanium bar cathode it that affects what can be added. These were acquired from ebay for very
reasonable prices. More platinum wire is available for those who are interested. I am also planning to use a computer power supply on the 5V rail.

In my experience back yard chlorate cell efficiency runs between 40 and 50 percent at best. To make up for the poor efficiency I run larger cells.
The only chemical additives I have used are HCl and NaOH to control Ph.
The following specifications are from the last chlorate cell that I ran:
Cell Body: 5 gallon plastic paint bucket
Anode: 1 x 1 x 16 solid graphite bar coated with boiled linseed oil to slow corrosion. 10 of the anode was submerged. I purchased a graphite bar large enough to
make 4 anodes this size from a local junk/scrap dealer for $5.00.
Cathode: 4 x 5 x 1/16 solid copper plate
Electrolyte: 4 gallons (15.14 liters) H20/NaCl. I dissolved approximately 13 lbs (5.89 kg) of NaCl in 4 gallons of water. I purchased in the NaCl in the form of water softener
salt at the local hardware store. A 40lb bag was less than $5.00. 13 lbs of NaCl will not completely dissolve in 4 gallons of water. I filtered out the un-dissolved solids after the
electrolyte had cooled to room temperature.
Power Supply: 12 VDC, 12 amp, automotive battery charger modified to output 6 VDC by disconnecting one leg of the transformer. Voltage at the cell was 5.4 VDC
HCl Drip: 6.5ml of 2% HCl
This cell ran for 28 days and produced 4lbs (1.8kg) of KClO3. Thats around 38% efficient.
Temperature control probably would have helped. I ran the cell outdoors in the winter. The highest temperature the cell reached was 40C.
A couple of drawbacks to larger cells is, the amount of chlorine gas released can be dangerous and may piss off the neighbors; especially at startup, and processing the
electrolyte is laborious.
I am sure if you use the search engine you will find a great deal of useful information on this subject from people with more knowledge and experience than I have.
Gammaray March 5th, 2007, 01:39 PM

hi, you can look here http://www.vk2zay.net/article.php/63
or this http://www.wfvisser.dds.nl/EN/kclox_EN.html
in_flames March 9th, 2007, 01:16 AM

Thankyou for the links although I had already read them. My question was specifically about additives which those pages don't really go into any detail. I am interested in
anyone's personal experience with them or more detailed information.
alancj March 14th, 2007, 01:27 AM

Gammary, you forgot the best site for chlorate's:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Campus/5361/chlorate/chlorate.html
Best of all... it seems the author, who I call "The Chlorate Guy", has come back from the dead, and has done some updating on his site in the past month.
To your question, in_flames, from what I've read (at the above site) that fluoride and/or persulfate is added in about 2g/L quantities. It increases current efficiency
substantially. This page:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Campus/5361/chlorate/naperchl.html has several links to patents that describe the use of those additives with some actual data
about what the effects are. Try viewing those patents on the freepatentsonline.com website, which is very good.
If you are using titanium as your cathode then you won't need to add chromate's; which are just used to protect mild and stainless steels from corrosion.
-Alan

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Rogue Science was down today?
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View Full Version : Rogue Science was down today?

Roguesci has been down for me all day, (from around 9 or so on) I checked it one last time before going to bed, and here it was up! Not only that it appears that it has been up
all day(judging by posts):confused: .
I am not the only member here who w as unable to access this site today either. When I tried, I got the general server not found, and yahoo search told me that the site did not
exist or w as unavailable.
Did anyone else have this experience? I must admit I panicked a little, with Sciencemadness dow n and xinventions also dow n in the course of a few days. I am not a regular at
xinventions and only checked the website after RS was unavailable to me, so I do not know when xinventions w ent down, all I know is that I got a page saying that they had a
worm and hopefully the server should be up in a few days.
The w orst thing was that I realized I had almost none of the senior members emails so I spent a good deal of time trying to figure out how to contact them. I feel kind of stupid
for overreacting :o .

It was also dow n for me and 3 others I talked to. I have accepted that at any time any useful webs ite could die, thats w hy I'm doing m y best to save them bit by bit. When something
like roguesci goes down I will do my best to get it out there, but w ith little forum members msn's its hard to find people worthy.
I will be abandoning my email if things get too tense for safety reasons.

This site was inaccessible to me as well w hen I tried a couple of times Tuesday afternoon, KH. I got a little spooked by that.
Alexires March 7th, 2007, 04:38 AM

Same here. Interestingly enough, I was having internet problems at the time. The account I was using first dropped out, so I sw apped over. I could access everything (google,
hotmail, etc) but not RS.org. When I swapped back, I could access it again....
chemdude1999 March 7th, 2007, 07:57 AM

It w as down for me as well. But I figured if they had gotten to NBK, I would have heard about it on national news. "Dozens of Federal agents w ere killed..."

Yup, was dow n for me since yesterday afternoon about 4 CST.
nbk2000 March 7th, 2007, 10:36 AM

There was a problem with our host, but it's been resolved. :)
Chaosmark March 7th, 2007, 06:12 PM

But I figured if they had gotten to NBK, I w ould have heard about it on national news. "Dozens of Federal agents were killed..."
I nearly died laughing when I read that. Perhaps nbk could enlighten us on exactly how that sentence might end?

I feared the worst for a moment :p
nbk2000 March 7th, 2007, 09:33 PM

"Dozens of Federal agents were killed..."
Delta Force, supported by a battalion of Army Rangers and an AC-130 gunship, storm NBK's 'compound', only to find an Washu doll. ;) :D
It always happens that people get freaked out when we, and any other similar site, goes dow n at the same time.
'ITS THE CRACKDOWN!!'
Not today. but someday...
random136 March 8th, 2007, 03:06 AM

Whenever I have difficulty accessing the forum, I immediately assume the w orst. What saddens me most is the fact that, should this site ever vanish into thin air, I would have
nothing left to prove it ever even existed (apart from my backup of the immense library of know ledge accumulated here, of course). Despite the fact that most of the older
members here are self proclaimed psychopaths in real life (and I do mean that in the most positive way), w e all sometimes long for reunions and reminiscing the good times.
Unlike conventional academic institutions or clubs, we have no centralized system for contingency communication purposes. Worse yet, asking other members for their contact
information may arouse suspicion concerning your intentions.
This forum has attracted quite a number of talented individuals w ho seem to work w ell w ith one another. Never before have I w itnessed such a beautifully orchestrated social
system, w e all seek to accomplish our ow n selfish goals, yet when w e come here we learn to put that aside, respect regulations, and aid one another. In effect we still
accomplish our own goals by bartering information with others, but in doing so we implement a new social system unlike any other I have seen before.
Any suggestions on how to ensure the survival of this community beyond the lifetime of roguesci, or would such preparations only make members more vulnerable to persecution?
Perhaps another, equally anonymous meeting spot w ould be in good order. A chat room, another forum, or some other form of web based communication could be used to serve as a
meeting spot. Should this pack of w olves ever have to s plit up, any communication w ould beat having to fend for one s self as a lone wolf.

I, for one, came AMAZINGLY close to torching my hard drive . . .
Whilst I appreciate the value of the forum, its best defence seems to be the anonymity and isolation of its members and the ease w ith which it could cease to exist - no offence,
people, but if the proverbial hit the fan I'd be out of here like a shot. The best anyone could do, in the event of serious trouble, would be the same.
Whilst there may be causes worth dying for - and I have yet to find one - the forum itself is a means, not an end in itself.
On a lighter note, at least it's back!

I have some ideas for a back up meeting point, but posting them here would be rather counterproductive.
nbk2000 March 8th, 2007, 06:39 PM

That's the problem...any alternate meeting point (virtual or real) that enough members know of to make it w orth bothering iwth, w ill also be surely known by Them, making it
a moot issue.
wst50 March 9th, 2007, 04:56 PM

'Them'?
That's a touch impersonal, surely :p
On the other hand, I'm going to have nightmares tonight. You just reminded me that my face is all over CCTV, my IP is everywhere, including a few Proxies... , My Fingerprints
and DNA are on record, as it's easy to take prints, and they had a massive bundle of it available without my knowledge when I was in hospital a lot in my very early youth.
Sometimes I just want to emigrate, somewhere a long way away.
Darn, they know everything thing about me. Those satellites and stuff.
I'm gonna have a bad night tonight, I can tell.
On the other hand, who says that we can't make a special handshake, much like the Freemasons? Hehe. That w ould make it easy enough to find other people, and it w ould be
unspoken, so unheard...
Aak, I wish I hadn't read your post, nbk. Paranoia is setting in fast...
megalomania March 10th, 2007, 09:39 AM

If you are going to download The Forum, be sure to exclude all the minor thread parts like the newreply.php, editpost.php, reputation.php, report.php, show post.php, and all
the dozen other php snippets that only display the same info in a dozen different ways.
I have been trying to build a text only based view of The Forum and incorporate an auto generated PDF copy of a thread that can be downloaded. I also want to make my own
version of an offline download available for people to snag.
Keep in mind we do have a complete text archive of every thread at http://w ww.roguesci.org/theforum/archive/index.php that is much easier to copy. There should be a link
on every page, but it seems to have vanished into the ether...
Obviously there is considerable interest in this. I can't stop anyone from leeching the entire Forum, so I might as well facilitate it the best I can to keep bandwidth spikes from
occurring. I do ban excessive bandwidth users obviously engaged in wholesale site ripping.

If you are going to download The Forum, be sure to exclude all the minor thread parts like the newreply.php, editpost.php, reputation.php, report.php, show post.php, and all
the dozen other php snippets that only display the same info in a dozen different ways.
I have been wondering how that could be done, I've been looking through the options on WinHTTracker and couldnt find anything useful. Any ideas?
akinrog March 11th, 2007, 03:19 PM

I have been wondering how that could be done, I've been looking through the options on WinHTTracker and couldnt find anything useful. Any ideas?
Just add minuses before the links (like ww w.roguesci.org/theforum/newreply.php) and types (like *.some_stupid_file_extension) you w ant to exclude in the options section.
Regards.
FU TI March 11th, 2007, 04:20 PM

This is maybe stupid...but anyway for those of you guys w ho live close to each other those mobilephones w ith bluetouth connection is maybe an answer for exchanging
encrypted messages. They can't charge you for driving in the same bus once a week in a certain time right? ;)
EDIT: I just saw Gerbil post but since I still can edit this post I choose to add this here. I don't want to add another post on the subject that will reitterate this thing. Yes that w as
something like Gerbil's dead letter box...just techno version. I was acctually inspired by recent spy affaire in Moscow where FSB stated it caught people working for some UK
intelligence agency exchanging info in public through hidden server/reapeater of some kind. I didn't pay attention at that time but this bring the subject up again.

FUTI: For exchanging information, wouldn't a dead letter box be better?

I actually use Offline Explorer Enterprise w hich includes features to selectively include and exclude different areas of a website. I find it best to run a download for only a few
seconds to find out what crap it is dow nloading, stop the download, and enter the restrictions. Why oh god why does it always always always ALWAYS download what you don't
want first?!? There are tons of areas of The Forum that you do not w ant to download simply because it multiplies content you already have. A full download would be something
like 20GB if you didn't exclude all the extraneous data, whereas a good download of all the content is something like 300-500 MB. Guess which one gets you, and your entire
continent, banned?

Thanks for your replies.
Mega what restriction on the dow nload rate should I put? How many connections at a time maximum?
Im surprised other w ebsites hadn't banned m y IP yet hehe. I once overloaded the bandwidth of a geocities site for about 10 minutes after I got half their site.
If my rougesci archive is less than 1gig I may even split it up and upload it to Rapidshare.

If my rougesci archive is less than 1gig I may even split it up and upload it to Rapidshare.
Maybe you should rip the site, get rid of all the techno-useless crap like newpost.php and then post it on Bittorent so we don't have to waste Mega's bandw idth doing the same.

FUTI: I was thinking about that earlier- the incident where MI6 allegedly had a file server disguised as a rock in a Moscow park, and agents would upload/download from
palmtops when they w alked by.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4639758.stm
If someone could set up something similar that was connected to mains electricity (stray cable or similar), in an unobtrusive location, then it might work very w ell as a backup
point. Due to the short range it w ould be difficult for anyone to intercept the data, and even then, encryption would help.
Obviously it w ould need some robust security measures, including some kind of self destruct mechanism (digital or physical). And knowledge of it would need to be limited to
very few people, 4 or 5 as maximum.
But there's no reason why several couldn't be set up independently.

...post it on Bittorent so w e don't have to waste Mega's bandwidth doing the same.
Good idea. I was actually thinking about doing this with some of my larger rips and then posting the torrent file only here for the members.
I need to get a second hard drive for more space, so it may be a month or so before I get some torrents going.

Maybe you should rip the site, get rid of all the techno-useless crap like newpost.php and then post it on Bittorent so we don't have to waste Mega's bandw idth doing the same.
A better idea would be to do what mega said and not even get the useless files in the first place by just scanning the links, and you can scan the links instead of starting the
download.
I w ould rather use Rapidshare or other file sharing client, it would be available for longer and wouldnt have a constant connection to my computer. People could also dow nload it when
they like and not just when I m seeding.
FU TI March 13th, 2007, 06:12 PM

FUTI: I was thinking about that earlier- the incident where MI6 allegedly had a file server disguised as a rock in a Moscow park, and agents would upload/download from
palmtops when they w alked by.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4639758.stm
Thanks for the link man. Even Wiki mention this incident under dead letter box term.
If someone could set up something similar that was connected to mains electricity (stray cable or similar), in an unobtrusive location, then it might work very w ell as a backup
point. Due to the short range it w ould be difficult for anyone to intercept the data, and even then, encryption would help.
Today with small pow er consumption of those devices and short range that they had to transmit data you could probably make device that "drain" enough energy by just being
near place where large cable line go through. Encryption is must I think since you aren't the only guy in town with handheld device.
Obviously it w ould need some robust security measures, including some kind of self destruct mechanism (digital or physical). And knowledge of it would need to be limited to
very few people, 4 or 5 as maximum.
But there's no reason why several couldn't be set up independently.
Something that could fry the circuitry can be made easy. Wipe-out routine even easier. But for true destruction of evidence you need something like thermite (yes I know
kewlish) to destroy the device if found/tampered with, but also to destroy all evidence that can lead to the guy w ho made it since put together all those electronic parts can lead
good investigator in right direction. Unless he/she adopt Unabomber routine and scavenge through the junkyard:). Dead letter box is for low er rank spy operatives so your
projection of number of people is about right (I w ould say the max number should be 12 - as in my post I think in thread dealing w ith RS country cells;)- and minimum number
should be 6).
I will in this year try to start one long postponed project of mine. Linux based bootable USB for connecting to "rogue" places from cybercaffes. It should contain browser, mailer,
chat-client, cryptography tools, RSS reader, firew all, IP switching script, crude AV tool, unauthorised mount/unmount wipeout and few extra portable programs just for fun.
I will explore the WiFi LAN after that, but that will have to wait longer.
The subject w e talk Gerbil isn't mainstream I think since guys here talk more in the line of regrouping (collect the remaining troops and know -how somewhere in cyberspace)
while two of us talk more in line of knowing w e can't beat the system directly so we better start developing "asymetric civil disobediance".

I w ould rather use Rapidshare or other file sharing client, it would be available for longer and wouldnt have a constant connection to my computer. People could also dow nload it when
they like and not just when I m seeding.
Once a few people have the file, you don't need to keep seeding. As long as one person seeds it works. If the entire DIY science community of the internet wants to ow n their
ow n Roguesci.org archive, there are going to be a couple hundred seeders. Rapidshare is awful, there's max of 1 download/30 mins unless you pay up.

Hmm, why don't you just let me make the archive eh?
I am running it now . Dow nloading the text only archive is less problematic and w ould make for the smallest filesize.

Hmm, why don't you just let me make the archive eh?
Now, that would make way too much sense. :p
I look forw ard to it. :D
I wasn't going to do it for fear of bandwidth abuse. I think 4hv.org has IP banned me. I had HTTrack going at unlimited dow nload speed. Unknowningly, of course. Dammit.
nbk2000 March 13th, 2007, 10:25 PM

Don't forget to include the attachments into that archive file, as that's half the content.

I was just thinking that adding the attachments would be very difficult since the way the forum softw are works, and how I do the rip, but I just remembered I yanked all the
attachments from the database to their own server file a few months ago. All I have to do is download them all directly from the host and zip them up...
I am done downloading the files, now I have to delete the "login" pages that accidentally got dow nloaded (there is ALWAYS some extra crap that sneaks in), but windows really
hates working with thousands and thousands of files in the same folder. I always have this problem with siterips.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > What do you do when you are bored?
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View Full Version : What do you do when you are bored?
Sausagemit March 7th, 2007, 11:56 PM

Out of curiostiy, what do you guys do when your bored and have to stick around your house/apartment and are tired of the internet, video games and TV?
Of course there is always the gold standard of getting drunk and playing with thermite in your back yard.
A good one is to make alcohol air rockets using old pop bottles and interesting shaped jugs. You basicly just drill a hole in the top of the bottle, put a little bit of denatured
alcohol or other flamable liquid in there and swish it arund for a bit then light it with a torch and watch it go. And it really does depend on the size of the hole and the type of
alcohol used. I've clocked some of the 2-liter pop bottles at aprox 100 ft/sec.
A couple of weekends ago me and my roomate cut a hole in the door of his minifridge and put a lcd monitor inside it.
Killer toothpic March 8th, 2007, 12:14 AM

Usually, I pick up a book,particularly the one I have on making siege engines. It actually has plans for scaled down versions, but they are easly scaled back up.(If anyone is
interested I can scan them in, but it would take a while.)
tiac03 March 8th, 2007, 01:58 AM

Usually If i'm bored I will Make a lock pick and then Fine tune it by first testing it and then polishing it up. This way I burn a couple of hours and Add to my pickset.
Also when I'm bored I try to get as much Info on a subject that interests me as I can and then attempt if possible to make whatever I'm reading up on.
For example right now I am trying to figure out exactly how the M605 fuze works (on the M16 mines). I know the basic functioning of it now due to the drawings of it, but I
can't tell exactly how the release pin holds the firing pin in position.
So I research until I figure it out, and once I do If time permits I'll attempt to make it.

When I'm really bored I clean guns, swap out mag loads or reorganize my LBE.
Grapes Of Wraith March 8th, 2007, 11:07 AM

I work out when I'm bored, gotta keep in shape.
atlas#11 March 8th, 2007, 12:10 PM

When I'm REALLY bored I go to classes :p .
I generally research something or go to work soldering something together in the electronic world. Sometimes, I drive around in my van and use a wireless USB adapter and a
lap top to break into wireless networks and screw with the townsfolk.
Me and my roommate used to go "wandering" or sneaking around the vacant lots surrounding my college campus and find random discarded shit such as old desks and chairs
and such and take them back home and pile them in the living room. Around half of the furniture in my room right now was found around here. And there was that one time
we broke into the hospital and stole one of those nice aluminum operating instrument tables or what ever they're called.
Before the resident "RA's" told me not to, I used to lurk around in my ghillie suit in the vacant lots just north of my apartment complex and make notes of resident activities.
Since I got this job as a help desk technician, I've been doing all sorts of weird computer experiments on the campus pc's. I have a healthy collection of hard drive magnets,
among other things. My latest project has been converting a qwerty keyboard into a dvorak.

When I'm REALLY bored I go to classes :p .
I havn't had any free time lately with taking 14 credit hours in engineering courses and working 40+ hours a week. It's just next week is spring break and I'm going to be stuck
in town working so all of a sudden I'm going to have all sorts of free time on my hands. :D
My latest project has been converting a qwerty keyboard into a dvorak.
It's acctually really funny just to change the layout in Windows (or whatever your using) and not change the keyboard. Really confuses the hell out of people when they go to
use your keyboard.
I was having keyboard trouble the other night so I took apart one of my old keyboards that didn't work at the time and figured out what was wrong with it (ground came un-
soldered) and completley changed the key layout. It now says a couple of nasty words and the only keys that are in the correct places are the function keys, f, a, k, and the
ctl alt stuff at the bottom.
209 March 8th, 2007, 07:35 PM

Come on guys, no one mentioned Porno???? :D
Nah. when im bored, I make blasting caps, I cant get enough of those little things. Now that I think about it, I really don't get bored, always doing something, like snorting AP
:D. (defiantly kidding)
Match March 9th, 2007, 08:46 AM

Man, I'm so busy, I don't ever have time to get bored.
shavah March 9th, 2007, 11:25 AM

When really bored I read myself blind (lots of research could lead to great dicovery)
A great discovery solves a great problem but there is a grain of dicovery in the solution of any problem .Your problem may be modest , but if it challenges your curiosity and
brings into play your inventive faculties ,and if you solve it by your own means,you may experience the tension and enjoy the triumph of discovery.
Kaydon March 9th, 2007, 12:35 PM

I usually work on my Nissan D21, or race my Chevrolet S-10.
Sometimes I dabble in one-off paintball "weapons," mines, grenades, etc.

Research. I never get tired of learning!
lock March 9th, 2007, 05:02 PM

I'll pick a lock, listen to music, or read a book or ebook, especially one on locks and safes!
I have a couple hundred locks, and am currently trying to pick a Medeco. Just getting frustrated :mad:

Sometimes I dabble in one-off paintball "weapons," mines, grenades, etc.
Same here, add to that making overengineered glow in the dark, electronic, magnetic holstered LARP weapons.
Other than that, cruising the internet.
wst50 March 11th, 2007, 08:55 AM

I generally go on random stuff on wikipedia 'interesting thingy' of the moment searches. And then I come across something extremely cool (railguns, for example), and then
can't be bothered to actually make any of them. Oh well, when I get off my backside there's a rifle range nearby that I could test it at... hmm.
mike16 March 11th, 2007, 01:59 PM

When I get bored, I make NG:D .
I also like fiddling around with my air rifle, putting guncotton behind the pellet to make it more powerfull.

This forum, research, work in my lab, skype, msn, chat and play games on battle.net.
nbk2000 March 12th, 2007, 04:35 PM

Out of curiostiy, what do you guys do when your bored and have to stick around your house/apartment and are tired of the internet, video games, and TV?
A lot of people seem to be missing the point of the thread.

I usually read literature, do some carpentry(I finished up a very nice bookcase a few weeks ago), work out, or if I have time and the weather is right, go fishing. Sometimes
after a busy week I just enjoy being bored that is I hang around the house, or hang out with the girlfriend and not do anything.
metallicash March 12th, 2007, 05:03 PM

Whenever I get bored, I usually make something or think about making something, although I never get them finished, as I get bored of making them or I am stuck as to
what I should do next. I also like to stroke my cats until they then get bored.
wst50 March 12th, 2007, 05:06 PM

When I'm bored in school I tend to go to shooting, if the coach is there, and if not I use the library comps and go on Uncyclopedia and see if I can make sense of anything at
all. At home I go on the 'net, play with my RC Car (soon to be modded :D ) or read. Most of these activities are mxed together with othe stuff, like eating or playing the Xbox
(I have mastered watching TV and playing the xbox, but now that VirginMedia doesn't recieve SkyOne there's not much to watch apart from Discovery channels and UKGold
>_> )

When TV loses its luster and the Internet ceases to sparkle I like to venture forth into the daylight and clean. I have a place for everything, but nothing is in its place if you
know what I mean. Organization also comes to mind with cleaning. Beyond that, if it is nice out, I will go outside and walk. If the weather is inclement I will grab a bit of
literature from the shelf and read. I might even by god visit with family...
Alexires March 15th, 2007, 07:51 AM

I tend to the do boring and read.
Otherwise I might go for a cruise on my motorbike. Lately everything has been packed full of work and stuff, so no time to do anything, let alone get bored.
I don't tend to get bored. I can entertain myself *wink*. Actually, I just start thinking about something, then go off on a tagent and end up thinking up the coolest things.
c.Tech March 15th, 2007, 10:16 PM

I don't tend to get bored. I can entertain myself *wink*. Actually, I just start thinking about something, then go off on a tagent and end up thinking up the coolest things.
That has to be the very best thing to do when youre lying in bed trying to sleep. Though to sleep I usually need my mind to be bored, not thinking of cool,
interesting, exciting and wonderful things, kind of a bummer when you trying to control your dreams by thinking of what you want to dream about whilst going to sleep.
blackadder March 16th, 2007, 01:48 AM

When the day goes stagnant, I like my 'walks'. I pick a location, walk there maybe have a cig/joint while musing about a particular thing, then walk to another location and do
the same, and repeat, until I've sorted a few things out in my head - then head back home with this newfound enthusiasm and excitement. It's nice to pick the things to think
about first and designate a certain location for that particular problem. Could be a park bench, a place in the woods, etc. If you section off each different problem in your mind
with its own place and equal time segment, I find it makes the whole journey a bit more 'fruitful' - rather than just having the whole thing merge into a general 'mush' of
thinking. I try to apply that to the daily routine - "1 hour guitar playing, then 1 hour reading, then 1 hour tinkering with something, 1 hour practising on a lock" etc. Mind you,
it's sometimes nice to just let the bloody day take its own course.
wst50 March 17th, 2007, 03:25 PM

Wow, I thought I'd only posted once in here. Oh the amnesia sprinkles its course */ramble*
Okay, when I get fed up of the internet, TV and video games (finally, I make an answer to the question!), I muck about with radio controlled cars, draw (I get at least 40
pages of A3 for presents during the year), but last night I had a rocket car project to finish, and I had a great 3 hours shaping, sanding, and painting of balsa into an
aerodynamic shape. Great stuff, the time flew by. And I only cut myself once! It's joined my extensive list of vehicular-based hobbies, along with slot cars, radio controlled cars
(see above), go-karting, and dreaming about having more money to buy more of the same :D

Well, I don't have anything to exciting to add. Usually play guitar, (currently learning some Jack Johnson tunes), or read a book and listen to some Zeppelin, or work out.
Some times its fun to make little .3 or .5g caps of AP and throw them off my porch and watch them make little holes in my yard (I live in the country). Or I clean my AK-47
and M4 and listen to classical music. Going for a really long run is a great way to burn time too...
wst50 March 21st, 2007, 04:52 PM

I don't think my neighbours would be too partial to me chucking AP about. Maybe if I could work it into little throwdowns...
Actually, that could make some humourous situations. And get me arrested. I'll blame it on the newspapers, they did print how to make it once or twice, back when there was
a previous terrorist scare.
It would be safer for me to Ping pong ball it, take away a bit of the bite...
IAMZERG March 22nd, 2007, 02:45 AM

I will oft read my Bible, listen to music, perhaps go to the gym, or study (God forbid). Yes, I'm a pyro AND a religious man. Get off my back already. I examined the evidence
and couldn't find any reason not to believe the Bible to the letter, so... I remain a Christian.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > O sama Back in Crosshairs?
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http://www.foxnews.com /story/0,2933,256972,00.htm l
So, we're just gonna keep cha sing him around this dam n s a n d b o x , e h ?
209 March 9th, 2007, 12:09 AM

Y e a h , I s a w s o m ething like that on Sixty Minutes. They always say that they are near to capturing him or they "have a new
l e a d ", but are they re ally that close?
H e m u s t h a v e s o m e k i n d o f m o v i n g p a l a c e o r s o m e t h i n g t o k e e p h i m hidden, how else could he have rem a i n e d u n c a t c h a b l e

all this tim e? Unless there is a soldier who is a "sand reader":D I dont think they are any closer than when they started.

You'll notice they suspect he's in an area along t h e P a k i s t a n b o r d e r . H e ' s b e e n b o u n c i n g b a c k a n d f o r t h b e t w e e n P a k i s t a n a n d
Afghanistan for years as the area is nothing bu t mountains, caves and goat trails. Osama knows the area well and used it the
s a m e way against the R ussians when he was with the Mujahadeen.
209,
He rem ains "uncatchable" because the locals still consider him a hero in Afghanistan and Pakistan for beating the R u s s i a n s .
There isn't m uch love for the U.S. am ong the local tribes in Afgh anistan because of the way we abandon them once Russia left.
W e're changing that slowly but we have a long way to go.
In that part of the world grudges and blood feu ds can carry on for generations passed on from father to son. Even if they didn't
think he was "right" they would hide him b e c a u s e h e ' s o n e o f t h e m and we are outsiders an infidels. You'll notice a
$25,000,000 reward hasn't caused anyone to turn him in since 9 /11. Tha t alone says a lot.

You're right, even the soldiers said the only way we're even going to catch him is if the locals trust us.
There's also neutral areas aro und the border, where U.S. soldiers aren't allowed to go. If we disrespect that "code", they'll
never trust us. In reality, they've got u s by the nuts. They are in control. That's part of the problem , but really m y theory is if
we disrespect them anym ore than we already have, we'll never catch him. R e g a r d l e s s .

W ould you trust the governm ent to actually cough up a reward? They are notorious for ren eging on their de als, or taking it a ll
away in taxes just like a lottery prize.
If you did collect, eve ry raghead nutjob in the world wou ld be after you and your fam ily for generations.
US soldiers are also ineligible to collect since it is part of their orders to get him . W hy should they bother with the extra effort?
O s a m a h a s b e e n a w a n t e d m an far longer than 911, so he knows what n e e d s t o b e d o n e t o s t a y o u t o f h a r m s w a y . H e m u s t

have perfected sticking it to the fedgov as an art form by now. He will die of old a ge first. I bet whoever the president is at that
tim e will take credit for his death too... "Our do gged pursuit finally wore his health down to where Osama died at the prem ature
age of 103."
nbk2000 March 10th, 2007, 11:55 AM

I bet they've known where he's been this whole tim e, but let him r u n l o o s e a s h e ' s m o r e u s e f u l t o T h e m a s a b o o g e y m a n t o
scare the sheeple, than sitting in prison.
Either that, o r he's already dead, but They won't announce that until they need a big distraction from some political scandel ala
'W a g t h e D o g ' .

NBK2000 has the righ t idea. Binnie has been dead since about 10th December 2001, when it is fairly certain that he died in the
Tora Bora Mountains from either starvation, hypotherm ia, scurvy, diabetes and kidney failure (he required daily treatm ent for
it), or bom bing by U.S. warplanes. NO NE of the audiotapes or videotapes of him released since then contain any m aterial that
prove his living beyond about that date and which could not have been easily forged.
But it suits the purposes of both Bu$h and his henchme n, and Al Q aeda and the Taliban, to try to m aintain the m yth that he is
still alive by whatever m eans possible; in the case of Bu$h & Co., as a vote-catching boge ym an to use to d ivert public
attention away from his corruption and dictatorial conduct and failed dom estic policies, and in the case of Al Q a e d a / T a l i b a n , a s
a figurehead.

There is a ch a n c e h i s b e e n d e ad for a long time. W ith enough video and recording of his voice they could make an artificial Bin
L a d e n t o d o w h a t h e d o e s b e s t , t a k i n g t h e b l a m e f o r t h e a d m inistrations attacks.
W ho really knows? He could have been dead before 9/11.
And even if he does get proven dead another artificial Arabic terrorists co uld be invented to 'play' the sheeple.
How come some people believe O sama is dead?
Just because there's no evidence to suggest otherwise?
Couldn't that be part of his plan? He's not a retard.
I'll believe Osam a is dead when I see a body and som e evidence.
Bugger March 12th, 2007, 01:15 AM

You are prob ably out of luck, because either his body was blown to pieces by U.S. bom bing, or he is buried in a m ountain ca ve
that was sealed up by a landslide caused by U.S. bombing; or, if he died from on e o f t h e o t h e r c a u s e s I m e n t i o n e d , his body
would have been buried under the greatest secrecy by his henchm e n .

I wa s n ' t s a y i n g t h a t I t h o u g h t h e w a s d e a d , I actually think there is m o r e o f a c h a n c e t h a t h e i s alive, I m just statin g the
possibility of an artificial terrorist getting invented with the same effect.
joeflsts March 12th, 2007, 08:42 PM

B e c a u s e e v e r y o n e n e e d s a b o o g i e m a n . I n f a c t o n e m a ns hero is another m a n ' s b o o g i e m a n - a s e v i d e n c e d o n t h i s v e r y

forum . To so m e t h e b o o g i e m an is a guy that wipes his ass with his hand, to another it is the governm ent that his peers
elected.
Joe
wetpowder March 14th, 2007, 01:36 PM

If th ey DO know where he is, why don't we drop a s m a l l n u k e o n h i m ?
Kind of clean up fast deal.

N u k e = e v e r y o n e h a t e s t h e m for it + n uclear war + can be easier done + he is m ore use to them a l i v e t h a n d e a d .
One of the other wars they will probably wage (Pakistani war) will use him as the excuse for another step in world domination.
Also having the threat of the fake terror organization (Al-Quida) leader (Bin Laden) still alive poses more o f a threa t to the
world so the crim inals can get along with passing their laws and oppressing the people with more support.

I don't know about others here, but I don't fear O sama or terrorists at all. Not the least bit. They pose extrem ely little risk to
m y life and zero risk to my freedom.
T h e m u c h b i g g e r d a n g e r , i n m y view, is the US governm ent. It is the only real danger to Americans' freedom , since only the US
g o v e r n m e n t m a k e s a nd enforces US laws, man y of which are downright tyrannical.

Kind of clean up fast deal.Two m ain reasons stick out:
(1) Even if such an attack did kill O BL -- and it could fail if he's hiding de e p i n a m o u n t a i n cave -- it would kill enough innocent
p e o p l e t o m a k e t h e U S e v e n m ore hated internationally than it is now. That would encourage more people to cross our (wide
o p e n ) b o r d e r s a n d e v e n t u a l l y a t t a c k u s f r o m t h e i n s i d e . T h e m o re enemies a nation makes, the worse its security.
( 2 ) T h e e n v i r o n m e n t a l d a m a g e e v e n a s m all nuke would cause to Pakistan -- another nuclear-arm ed natio n -- would not be
appreciated.
mil&co March 15th, 2007, 08:38 AM

W h a h a h a , f u nny.
Seriously, even if Osama was killed in the blast, there is no way of proving he was. No, the US wants to capture him like they
d i d w i t h S a d a m , a h e l p l e s s , h o p e l e s s , h e a r y m a n i n s o m e h o l e ( p r e f e r a b l y s o m etim e near the elections;) ). They want to
totally humiliate him , not to m a k e a m artyr out of him.
Plus, what would using a nuke do to th e credibility of the US, trying to stop the nuclear program m e s of N. Korea and Iran?
:rolleyes:
metallicash March 15th, 2007, 01:34 PM
I don't know about others here, but I don't fear O sama or terrorists at all. Not the least bit. They pose extrem ely little risk to
m y life and zero risk to my freedom.
Directly they don't pose any risk to you freedom, but they do indirectly. As the governmen t is most likely to use the terrorists
and what the y do, as an excuse to bring out more laws to keep an even closer eye on every single one of you. The people will
then think it is for the greater good as the governent is practically saying , that if we had this law th is would have never
happened.

W hat you say is true, m etallicash; terrorist atta cks can certainly be used by the government as an excuse to restrict freedom .
Ultimately, though, I blam e the governm ent for that loss of free dom much more than I blame the terrorists. The re a s o n i s
that although I disagree with the m eth o d s o f O sam a & Friends (i.e., targeting random civilians rather than people k nown to be
guilty), I think that their attacks have been pro voked. They don't "hate us for our freedom . " T h e y h a t e u s b e c a u s e t h e U S
government is in thra ll to Israel and is responsible for, am o n g o ther things, enab ling atrocities comm itted upon the residents
of occupied Palestinian territories. US m eddles in the Middle East and other parts of the world in a variety of ways, a nd that is
the true cause of terrorism . Terrorism has beco me defined as "violence that isn't approved by Israel or its Am erican enforcers."
Also, if the U S government really believed in "inalienable rights" (the very concept this country was founded upon), then it
wouldn't m atter if a nuke was going off in a US city every m onth; there would still be no comprom i s e o n f r e e d o m here.
Unfortunately, m ost of m y fellow Am ericans are too cowardly to prefer fre edom to security. They think they'll live forever if
they'll just tu rn over their dign i t y a n d m a n h o o d t o t h e g o v e r n m e nt and live like good little sheep in a pen. :m ad:
That's my rant for the day... :D
Jacks Complete March 16th, 2007, 12:58 PM

If te rrorists didn't exist, the governments would create them. O h, wait...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Determining the Grade of
Graphite
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I h a ve recen tly acquired seven solid graphite cylinders. Five of them a r e 5 in diam e t e r x 1 4 l o n g . T h e o t h e r t w o a r e 7 in
diam e t e r x 1 4 l o n g .
I would like to have some of this m aterial machined onto rocket m otor nozzles and knowing the grade would be helpful.
They all have the number 3499S and a 0 stamped on the end.
I have searched online but could find nothing that m a t c h e d t h o s e n u m b e r s . I h a v e f o u n d d a t a c o n taining graphite grade
n u m bers and their correspond ing densities.
If I determ in e the density of the m aterial and m atch it up with som e t h i n g o n l i n e c a n I a s s u m e t h a t it is that grade m aterial or
are there other factors I need to consider?
I t i s n o t s i n t e r e d a n d d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o b e i m pregnated with any type of m etal.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Appeals Court Overturns D.C. Gun Ban
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As of last Friday its legal to own and bear loaded firearms in D.C.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/03/09/D8NOSR480.html
:rolleyes:

It's about fucking time ! But do fully expect the D.C. local politicians,
U.S. Senators - Feinstein, Kennedy, Schumer, and of course the Violence
Policy Center - led by Sarah Brady, to scream at the top of their collective
lungs about the blood that will flow in D.C.'s streets. Too late assholes !
It's been happening for years. It would be nice if the average D.C. citizen
had the chance to fight back and cap off some of these gang banging thugs !

Excellent news, indeed! :)
What can they say when the crime rates drop drastically over the next few years in such a crime-ridden shithole as DC? Now they just need to adopt the Castle Doctrine
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine) or the Make My Day Law (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=10B2NQ2HU4IYDQFIQMFSM5OAVCBQ0 JVC?
xml=/news/2004/10/31/nburg231.xml) and all forced to live near there will be so much better off. More and more states are adopting such laws. It truly gives a breath of
hope for people yet.
Maryland still needs to become a Shall Issue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shall_issue) state, though, Tmp. Hopefully that'll be the next good news you hear, and it cannot
come soon enough!
I'm all for Open Carry Anywhere, myself.
InfernoMDM March 11th, 2007, 11:56 AM

Apparently you guys haven't seen H.R. 1022 although I don't think it will pass, its making a good initial run.

For once the judges in this country actually are doing their job. Their job is to go to the contstitution, see what it says, and make a ruling based on that. Not a ruling based on
their opinions as they so often do. It gives me hope!
Take a look at what should be Federal lethal force law(Texas) http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.002.00.000009.00.htm#9.42.00
It allows you to use deadly force to protect your property. (a) A person in
lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is
justified in using force against another when and to the degree the
actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful
interference with the property.
Puts some meaning to the sign "Trespassers Shot on Sight"! The law allows you to shoot someone in the back who is running away with your TV IF you believe that there is no
other way to stop him from running off with it! The law regarding protecting yourself is even better. I should move to Texas(as soon as I learn Spanish!).
As to H.R. 1022(reinstitution of the Assault Weapon ban). I knew that the liberals would be at it as soon as they could. I hope that if it does get passed Bush will use that veto
power of his. I guess I should start buying some banana clips while they are cheap. I shudder at whart sort of gun laws they will pass if they get the White House too!

How do you know if a person is running away, or running to get better cover from which to return fire? If you are acting like a thug, robbing, raping, murdering, beating up
people in the streets, than you should expect bad things to happen to you. You should expect to be put down like a rabid animal.

You're off topic. :D
British Common Law provided that it was an individual's right to protect themself and their property, and the to some measure the Constitution incorporated this right under the
2nd Amendment ... but the right to bear arms as instituted by Congress has a somewhat different meaning. Some say that when it was enacted, there was a consensus that
the intention was to preserve the right to revolt against a tyranical government.
Don't know much about the law though, or so say the [c]ourts - so its altogether incredious that a [c]ourt has legalized firearm ownership in D.C.
Maybe some judges are pissed about Bu$h forcing judges to resign so that the administration can replace them with more sympathetic ones. Balance of power and all that.
This isn't legal advice or anything, but I think the Court was giving the go ahead to kill off the present administration as well as administrations to come. Keep in mind that if
this was legal advice I'd charge you for it.
Chaosmark March 17th, 2007, 06:30 PM

Or maybe the judges finally sat down and looked through the Constitution and decided that the way the 2nd Amendment had been interpreted was wrong. Not everything
needs an ulterior motive. I think perhaps some members here are a tad bit too jumpy. Watching out for the Big Man has made us spook at everything, looking for the secret
motive behind every action.

Fester, there's no chance that Maryland will allow it citizens to carry guns
given that Martin O'Malley is governor. He's like his father-in-law, the former,
actually retired, Attorney General, J. Joseph Curran. That asshole wanted to
ban all private handgun ownership. He wanted only cops to have them. I'm
surprised he didn't shout "Hail To The Police State !"
One of Bush's lasting legacies may indeed have an effect on gun control. He
placed Roberts and Alito on the Supreme Court. Alito wasn't liked by the
gungrabbers because in a dissenting decision in a lower Federal, he stated
that "people had the right to own machine guns". That's very telling !
As for the 2nd Amendment, there are those who believe that owning weapons
is a natural right and that the 2nd Amendment is a prohibition against
governments to restrict that right.

As for the 2nd Amendment, there are those who believe that owning weapons
is a natural right and that the 2nd Amendment is a prohibition against
governments to restrict that right.
I find it amazing that many people do not believe this, as it is plain as daylight when you look at the history of America and who wrote the constitution.
The reason for the ignorance of the American student is teachers unions, sometimes I think their only purpose is to provide disinformation on the 2nd Amendment. It would
make sense that public teachers would be against the citizens right to defend themselves against a corrupt government, as they are paid by said government therefore
indoctrinated sheeple= job security.
I wish I were in high school again, I would love to see the rage on their faces when I whipped out a couple of choice quotes by the founders of our nation on gun rights!
nbk2000 March 18th, 2007, 02:15 AM

I remember civics in middle-school teaching the constitution, but they skipped right over the 2nd and were very brief on the 5th., focusing instead on freedom of speech, anti-
slavery, and womans sufferage amendments. WTF?!
shooter3 March 19th, 2007, 09:49 PM

One must beware of crafty (not meaning smart) politicions. The Supreme court has said many times that Rights can not be taken, but they can surely be signed away!
Case in point; Here in Mass, anyone can go down and get a permit (they say you have to have a permit to have a gun). It's very easy, but YOU must remember that you
don't need a permit to keep and bare arms.
I found a pamphlet that described the requirments. It says that the old permit which had to be renewed every 2 or so years, was done away with and the new permit was
"good for life". What that means, is that instead of giving your rights away for 2 year periods, you can now give them away forever!
Also in the booklet, It says; now in order to get a "carry license" you must first have a permit. This makes sense, you only need a license if you have previously given up your
right to carry which you were born with!
Our problem is that you get into a pack of grief if you are caught without their license!
Here is the legal solution; never sign anything without signing it "without predudice". That is a legalism that says, yes i will follow your rules, but I retain any rights that I have
in the matter. This is found in the "uniform commercial code", 207.
So, If you retain your rights in the permitting process, your carry "license" will be a carry "permit" also signed "without predudice"! I don't think you will find them objecting, as
they undoubtedly don't want to spill the beans, before everyone has signed away their right to carry!
I'll be getting the permit sometime before next fall. I'll post the story after I get it done.
PS, This is obvious fraud on the part of the State. I shows the utter contempt the have for the benighted masses!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Aerospace Engineering /
Fore nsic Science
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blackadder March 16th, 2007, 02:14 AM

Didn't want to post anywhere else due to utter irrelavance of question.
Any opinions regarding which degree would be the m ore fruitful/interesting/useful.
In a UK context (if yo u're going to talk about career pro spects and all that).
I'm a bit more interested in the subject matter rather than the career applications.
Cheers

This is coming from an engineer (master's in engineering physics, specialized in electronic m ateria l s ) , s o I m i g h t b e b i a s e d ,
but I would definitely go with aerospace or another bran ch of engineering (preferably electrical, me chanical, or chem ical).
Career opportunities will almost certainly be better in engineering. I know you said that's a secondary consideration, but you
m ight think differently once you're looking for a job. I recomm end taking this factor very seriously.
Regarding th e intrinsic interest of the m aterial...well, ag ain, I'm biased...but a de gree in aerospace engineering will probably
teach you m ore about subjects that ha ve greater applicability to more areas of science and technology. As an aerospace major,
you'll learn p lenty of advanced math such as partial differential equations, and th at's the "languag e of nature." You 'll apply
that math (often usin g c o m p u ter/num erical me thods) to such subjects as fluid m e c h a n i c s a n d s o l i d m e c h a n i c s . A g a i n , t h e s e
subjects have applicability beyond the scope of aerospa ce engineering; hence, your skill set will be m ore versatile. You could
end up working as a m echanical engineer, for example, even if your degree is in aerospace engineering. They are closely
related fields.
O n e b i g a d v a n t a g e t o a d e g r e e i n f o r e nsic science would be if you plan o n living a life of crime! O bviously, the more you know
about the latest methods in forensics, the more easily you can evade detection by such m ethods. But then there's a downside
associated with that, too: Som eone with a FS degree will probably have a day job working with or for pigs m uch of the tim e.
My $0.02, hope that helps a bit...
Jacks Complete March 16th, 2007, 01:01 PM

If you are in the UK, you will get a job with one of three companies if you go aero s p a c e . Y o u a r e k i n d o f r e l y i n g o n t h e b i g o n e
n o t g o i n g p o p ( B a e s y s t e m s ) w h i c h s e e m s m ore likely by the da y. If/when they go, there will be th ousands of guys with a lot
m ore time served than you looking for a job. Also, they have a terrible rep as an employer, and they only just got away with
the latest bride scandal. You could get a job with Thales, Boeing, Northrop, or several others, and they m ight let you get out
this shitty country.
Fore nsics? Sounds a lot more fun than a day/week/year fiddling with a fluid dynam ics com putation (if you are lucky) or doing
spend & tim e tracking (m ore likely). Certainly I have been to go od R&D labs for various things, and they are all fun. But, there
is a lot m ore room for ending up as a gopher for years, typing com puter printouts into other computers and dying slowly.
As a percentage, I'd say forensics has a far lower number of people doing it, and far fewer gophers without a hope, plus it's
probably a lot more fun (if you have the stoma ch for it!)
The flipside is, becom e a m erchant banker, earn $1m a year for three years, then retire & re-train as whatever the hell you
feel like!

I t s e e m s l i k e e v e r y o n e n o w a d ays is becoming a forensics type, soon the job m arket will be flooded. Engineers are always in
d e m and, even in peripheral occupations if worse comes to worse . CSI m ay m ake for a good TV show, but it is just Hollywood ...
nbk2000 March 16th, 2007, 10:48 PM

It's Engineers who build the m achines that the forensics wonks use, not the wonks them s e l v e s .

W hen the local overpriced private tech school switched from advertising their com puter courses to billboards by the highway
laud ing their criminal forensics program, I knew the wave had crested.
Sausagemit March 20th, 2007, 12:12 AM

Engineering will be 10x m ore rewarding as long as you don't end up as a desk jockey crun chin num bers all day. If you are
good at what you do that m ost likely that will not happe n. Very few smart engineers end u p a s d e s k j o c k e y s n o m atter what
there GPA at graduation is.
And statisticly speaking, the p erfect 4.0 students m ake much better desk jockeys because nobody wants to hire the 4.0
stud ents right out of college b ecause usually they lack real world experience. It is that lack of real world experience and a lack
of com m o n s e n s e t h a t m a k e s t h e m t h e perfect num ber crunchers.
Right now, I'm about a year away from graduating with m y BS in m ech engineerin g. It's pretty rough but I couldn't be happier
with my choice. With classes like m echatronics how can you go wrong :D
blackadder March 20th, 2007, 11:51 PM

Cheers for contributio ns!
T h e A e r o e n g i n e e r i n g definitely seem s to be th e better option with regard to interest and importan ce and skills. And the career
outlook is not that bad, having an Aero degree is certainly a powerful weapon in your arsenal for any job.
O n e i s s u e t h a t r e m ains is the small range of work available within the UK Aerospace industry as mentioned b y J a c k s C o m p l e t e
- this makes it a highly com petitive area to work in. Not that it will stop m e f r o m h a v i n g a g o .
I t s e e m s t h a t back in the day, the UK Aerospace industry was far more diverse, with British com panies all over the place
(Hawker-siddeley, Avro, Blackburn, de Havilland, English-Electric, Vickers-Arm strongs) which over tim e have merged to British
a e r o s p a c e , a nd m ore recently British Aerospace has merged with Marconi (Defence brance of GEC in the US) to form BAE
system s . I t ' s a s h a m e t h e i n d ustry seem s t o h a v e g o n e d o w n h i l l . T h e r e u s e d t o b e s o m e rem arka ble aircraft around back in
t h e d a y . S e e m s that there aren't any more "pure" aircraft built b y solely British co m p a n i e s a n y m ore. The JSF progra m a n d
Euro fighter are examples. I would have killed to be involved in the m aking of the se old British aircraft:
===Check out the Vu lcan:

http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Vulcan
One hell of an aircraft! The huge wings gave it such good lift the pilots compared flying this aircraft with flying a figh ter jet -
e v e n h a d t h e s a m e type of joystick control colu m n .
===Also the TSR-2:

http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/TSR-2
"one of the most advanced aircraft in the world, with supercruise ability, and similar thrust and Mach 2+ performance to the
Rockwell B-1A and significantly higher perform ance than the current Boeing IDS B-1B." And this was in 1964 - simply stunning!
interesting stuff.
megalomania March 21st, 2007, 01:50 AM

You know, with the emergence of X-prize space craft from smaller aerospace firm s I would expect such com panies to grow like
weeds over the next 20-30 years. W e m ight be poised on a resurgence of space based technologies in the private sector the
likes of which we have not seen since the 50s and 60s at NASA.
Maybe these small companies will not offer the higher salaries a nd entrenched job security of the big boys, but you could
actually DO something to m ake a real difference at the small fries. Talk about real world experience... Once the big boys ge t
on the ball and start buying all the little guys, you're in!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Entropy definition
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reamio March 19th, 2007, 06:05 AM

No, actually when you h e a t s o m ething you increase the level of order, therefore you decrease entropy. Things tend to go
towards entropy, things tend to cool down.
Absolute Zero is absolute entropy.
I beg to differ. As far as I understand it,

T h e r e a r e 2 m ain types of entropy in a system : Positional disorder and Therm al disorder. In Positional disorder entropy
increases as you change the state of matter from solid-liquid-gas and in reverse from gas-liquid-solid entropy decrease. in
T h e r m a l d i s o r d e r e n t r o p y i n c r e a s e s a s h e a t i n c r e a s e s a n d a s h e a t d e c r e a s e s e n t r o p y a l s o d e c r e a s e s . i f t h e re is an increases in
disorder then the reaction will be spontaneous. if there is a decrease in disorder then it is spontaneous.
Thin k about it: the disorder in a solid cube of ice (crystals all perfectly aligned) is less than in wate r vapor (molecules shooting
a r o u n d t h e r o o m rapidly in a random manner):rolleyes:
Also, I disagree with "... things tend to cool down". It depends on what temperature they started at. Things that are warmer
than the am bient tem perature tend to cool down, things that are colder tend to warm up.:D
In each case, the total entropy of the system increases according to the second law of therm odyna mics.
Frun k: it's not m y intention to nit-pick, I just wanted to get things straight for our colleagu es who aren't fam iliar with the
subject.
nbk2000 March 19th, 2007, 06:31 AM

Also, I disagree with "... things tend to cool down". It depends on what temperature they started at. Things that are warmer
than the am bient tem perature tend to cool down, things that are colder tend to warm up.
Y o u c a n s t o p or reverse local entropy by expending ene rgy, but the total entropy of the system will ALW AYS increase.
In the instan ce of the cold objects warm i n g t o a m b i e n t , t h a t ' s b e c a u s e o f t h e e n e r g y b e i n g e x p e n d e d b y t h e sun is reversing

entropy locally, but the total e ntropy of the Universe is ever increasing, a nd will continue to increase until all available energy,
even that holding ato ms together, is e x p e n d e d , a n d t h e U n i v e r s e i s n o t h i n g b u t a n i n f i n i t e e x p a n s e o f s u b -atomic particles at
absolute zero.
IAMZERG March 22nd, 2007, 11:23 PM

...and will continue to increase until all available energy, even th a t h o l d i n g a t o m s t o g e t h e r , i s e x p e n d e d , a n d t h e U n i v e r s e i s
nothing but an infinite expanse of sub-atomic particles at absolute zero.
That helps a whole lot... No-one, even "experts" on the subject have been able to adequately explain entropy for m e . T h e y
say it's really com plicated, but you made it really simple. Thanks!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Getting Used to Nitro
Headaches
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From what I understand, what causes a nitro headache is the dialation of blood vessels in the head, causing the headache. I
also understand that Nitroglycerin is used in m edicine to help pe ople with blood pressure issues using this sam e property. But
c a n y o u g e t u s e t o n i t r o h e a d a c h e s ? I u s e t o g e t t h e m all the tim e while making NG, NC a nd even TNP. But I havn't had this
p r o b l e m for a while now. Anyone else experience this?
chemdude1999 March 20th, 2007, 07:49 AM

You can get use to nitro headaches. In the good ol' days, workers in the explosives industry use to acquire an "imm unity" to
t h e m t h r o u g h r e g u l a r h a n d l i n g . C o m panies could also rotate their em ployees in and out of the nitro production areas to
m aintain the im m unity.
209 March 20th, 2007, 02:06 PM

Yeah, but is it true that long exposures to nitro (breathing fumes, handling) can cause other problem s like cancer o r
s o m ething??

Check this for OSHA information:
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/nitroglycerin/recognition.html
I'd wear gloves if I were handling it. It doesn't seem to indicate cancerou s problem s, but definitely nails the cardiovascular
hard. Harder than just nitro headaches.
I never knew it had such strong side effects. In teresting.
Charlie Workman March 22nd, 2007, 02:50 AM

W earing gloves will help a lot, but the fum e s m ay still g et you. Black coffee and aspirin has been the traditional way of dealing
with the headaches. Also avoid drinking alcohol.
plutobound March 23rd, 2007, 11:40 AM

Anecdotal no t scientific, but 25+ years ago I was working as a te c h n i c i a n m a k i n g l a c q u e r s f o r d o u b l e b a s e R &D propellants fo r
tactical m issiles from neat (99:1) NG. Som e p e o p l e ' s h e a d a c h e s w e r e m inor (luck i l y m i n e ) ; s o m e a d a p t e d b y t h e h e a d a c h e s
decreasing in intensity; while with others it was always severe (about 1/3rd).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C ompilation of Explosions
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Rbick March 20th, 2007, 07:37 PM

For the m ost part, I enjoy video taping m y charges when I detonate them for review later and just for kicks. Although I do not
do this every tim e , I d o i t a g o o d p e r c e n t a g e o f t h e t i m e . S o I t h o u g h t I w o u l d s h a r e s o m e o f m y videos and inform ation
about each one. If you guys have any you'd lik e to share, I would like to s e e t h e m . I hope to reco rd a few more AN/Fuel
charges using different fuels and com pare them, but thats for la ter. You'll have to excuse the poor sound quality of m y
camera, as it doesn't capture all the sound that well, causing the explosions to sound wee ker than they were.
T h i s o n e i s 2 50g of an AN mixture detonated by .5g AP cap with a 40g APAN booster. I used 92% activated AN, 6% acetone,
1% AL 600 m e s h a n d 1 % M n O 2 . I a d d AL and MnO2 to all m y AN charges to sensitize and add mo re blasting power. This wa s
buried about 20cm under ground.
250g ANA (http://s164.photobucket.com / a l b u m s / u 6 / p u d g e d o g 6 9 / C o m pile/?action=view&current=ANA-MnO2-Al.flv)
This was 200 g of ANFO using the sam e m e t h o d a s a b o v e a s i d e f r o m the fuel.

200g ANFO (http://s1 6 4 . p h o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / u 6 / p u d g e d o g 6 9 / C o m pile/?action=view&current=200gANFO.flv)
T h i s o n e i s 1 00g of AN/Brush Cleaner (Containing MEK, toulene, methyl alcohol, Aliphatic Hydrocarbon and Isopropanol)I used
t h e s a m e m e t h o d a s a b o v e . I t s e e m e d t o b e t h e m o s t b r i s a n t o f t h e 4 I t e s t e d t h a t d a y ( n o t t a p e d is m y 100g cha rge of AN/
Naptha Petro leum , which was also quite brisant).
AN/Brush Cle aner (http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Compile/?action=view&current=ANBrushC leaner.flv)
This is 30g charge of APAN and a snowman, I thought it was funny...

Snowm an (http://s164.photobucket.com / a l b u m s / u 6 / p u d g e d o g 6 9 / C o m pile/?action=view&current=snowm an.flv)
This I actually just did about an hour ago. Its just 60g of KCLO4 and AL 600 mesh in a m edicine bottle placed in a plastic bag
with a rock. I thought it was k3W L though.
Underwater Det. (http : / / s 1 6 4 . p h o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / u 6 / p u d g e d o g 6 9 / C ompile/?action=view&current=Water.flv)
This one had to be put into pictures, because the video file was far too large. Its 500g of APAN (insane... I know) put
u n d e r n e a t h 7 . 5 L o f 8 7 o c t a n e g a s o l i n e . W e w e r e s t a n d i n g a b o u t 1 0 0 m away and put a 1 m in. fuse on it.
#1 (http://i164.photobucket.com / a l b u m s / u 6 / p u d g e d o g 6 9 / C o m pile/1.jpg)
#6 (http://i164.photobucket.com / a l b u m s / u 6 / p u d g e d o g 6 9 / C o m pile/Crater.jpg)
Thats it for n ow. I thought about puting this in the explosives section but I fear getting banned :D When I com plete m y project
with the AN/Fuel mixtures, I will put that in the HE section... So post away guys.

Rbick,
There is a thread dedicated to videos and pictu res:
S e e m s like a good post. I doubt NBK would ban you for it if you posted it in the thread above.
At any rate, nice pics and vids. Half Kilo of APAN?!
Lewis March 21st, 2007, 02:32 AM

Alwa ys nice to see videos around.
I'm a little confused about the apparent power of these devices in relatio n t o t h e a m o u n t o f e x p l o s i v e y o u c l a i m ed was used...
The first videos were supposedly in the 100 gram range , which looked positively puny. Wh eras the 30 gram charge com pletely
disentegrated a snowm a n .
It's unfortunate that you weren't able to give us video footage of the cha rge you placed under the fuel tank. It looked
Hollywood quality.
Rbick March 21st, 2007, 11:36 AM

I can understand how they m a y s e e m puny due to the sound. But the AN charges were quite powerful and had thunderous
report, alm o s t k n o c k e d m e o n m y ass. My cam era sucks though : m a d : H e r e a r e s o m e m ore pics of the craters from the AN
charges. I'll try to get that gas tank charge on the net but I need a video edit program first.
2 5 0 g C h a r g e Crater
#1 (http://i164.photobucket.com / a l b u m s / u 6 / p u d g e d o g 6 9 / C o m pile/ANcrater3.jpg)
#2 (http://i164.photobucket.com / a l b u m s / u 6 / p u d g e d o g 6 9 / C o m pile/ANCrater2.jpg)
#3 (http://i164.photobucket.com / a l b u m s / u 6 / p u d g e d o g 6 9 / C o m pile/ANCrater1.jpg)
2 0 0 g C h a r g e Crater (I started to fill the hole before I remem bered to take the picture, but as you can see it threw up som e b i g
chunks of dirt.)
Crater (http://i164.photobucket.com /a lbum s / u 6 / p u d g e d o g 6 9 / C o m pile/ANC rater4.jpg)
EDIT: Speaking of wh ich, here is the video of the "gas tank" cha rge
G a s T a n k ( h t t p : / / s 1 6 4 . p h o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / u 6 / p u d g e d o g 6 9 / C o m pile/?action=view&current=FAE.flv)
wst50 March 21st, 2007, 04:58 PM

That is great. I like the bangs.
One thing I noticed though- 87 Octane! That's weak isn't it? I'm surprised your cars move at all ou t there :P
Dr. Hextromeister March 23rd, 2007, 06:21 PM

Are you sure that was 200g of ANFO that detonated? W ere you using nitrom e t h a n e as you r Fuel?
Rbick March 23rd, 2007, 08:09 PM

Yep it sure was. I wish I had some Nitrom ethane, but I'm kind low on funds right now. Just out of curiousity, what m a k e s i t
look like Nitrom e t h a n e?
Dr. Hextromeister March 23rd, 2007, 08:24 PM

I ' v e h e a r d a m i n i m um charge for full ANFO detonation (Diesel ,etc) is about 450g . ANNM is usually used for sm aller chages like
what your's were.
The snowman was hillarious by the way.
Sausagemit March 23rd, 2007, 11:37 PM

I'm a little confused about the apparent power of these devices in relatio n t o t h e a m o u n t o f e x p l o s i v e y o u c l a i m ed was used...
O p e n e x p l o s i o n s a l w a y s l o o k p u n y o n t a p e . I f y o u r g o i n g t o v i d e o t a p e i t , y o u m ight as put it inside of som ething so you can

see the pieces fly everywhere.
That snowm an looked like it was hollow :D
Thanks for sharing!!!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Adobe to release a freeware version of Photoshop
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megalomania March 21st, 2007, 02:36 AM

Adobe announced its intention a few weeks ago to release a freeware version of Photoshop sometime this fall. The freeware version will be called Adobe CS3
Extended Edition and may be downloaded from torrent websites possibly be next week when the program is officially released Oh, wait, I am getting my versions
confused :)
The freeware version will be quite stripped down and available to all the lamers who like such things. Not to be confused with all the hipsters and trendsetters who will be
downloading and using CS3 for free anyway.
It looks like March 27, 2007 is the expected release date for CS3 from what I am reading (I am probably wrong, like the weather I will believe it when I see it). It will come in
two flavors, Photoshop CS3 and Photoshop CS3 Extended Edition. The extended edition adds some nifty enhancements for rendering, editing of motion graphics, measurement,
and analysis tools for video and scientist types.
I am willing to bet the Extended Edition will dominate the warez releases.
LibertyOrDeath March 21st, 2007, 11:34 AM

I wonder how that free version will compare to the GIMP, which is also free and seems to be very powerful. The GIMP is said to be less powerful than the full-blown version of
Photoshop, but the GIMP is more than enough for most peoples' needs.
megalomania March 21st, 2007, 05:41 PM

Likely the freeware version will allow people to better use the Adobe file formats. By people I mean it will allow Adobe to better flog their own proprietary file formats gaining
them increased market penetration. Since they are interested in sticking it to Micro$oft right now, I say that's just fine.
I have always contended that photoshop would not be nearly as popular as it is if there was no piracy of the product. A significant percentage of the customers who learned the
software on pirate copies are now the ones who drive the sales of new versions and all the accessory attachments. The large userbase creates demands for better help files,
documentation, instructional websites, and tutorial videos that then attract vast hordes of users to get the program, legit or otherwise.
Wholesale piracy is good news for the little guy and small business owner since they can support a product they would never otherwise purchase until they truly know the
product. Only businesses and those with bucks should pay for software. Each according to his financial ability, a truly equitable system.
Nothing like having a demo of a product to get you hooked. So what if that demo lasts 5 years and 7 version upgrades... Eventually the pirate will become a customer, even if
it is for better hardware.
Bugger March 21st, 2007, 06:15 PM

I agree with Megalomania, - but I am very surprised at and suspicious of Adobe's intentions. That freeware Adobe CS3 "Extended" (?) Edition will no doubt be very "cut-down",
with very limited functionality (some functions may be save-disabled), and probably unable to handle many file formats. It will probably be little better than currently available
free "demo" versions.
Sausagemit March 22nd, 2007, 04:47 AM

If the new "Extended Edition" will be as easy to crack as the current version of CS3 that was available to download from Adobe's website for a 2 day trial, I say, what's the
point of grabbing the lesser edition when you can grab the full version for a trial and change one file name and have it indefinitely :D .
It's not actually steeling if you just change one of the file names on your computer.
nbk2000 March 22nd, 2007, 07:03 AM

They likely figure that if they give away a 'free' version, people will be less likely to 'steal' the full version. :rolleyes:
megalomania March 22nd, 2007, 05:41 PM

Remember, there are loads of soccer moms and state indoctrinated sheeple childrens who buy the propaganda of the RIAA and MPAA wholesale who actually don't know
current copyright law has overstepped its bounds and is itself illegal. No, they actually think piracy is a crime, not justice.
The freeware version will likely only be suitable for children and the elderly (training wheels or depends, pick your analogy).
megalomania April 12th, 2007, 04:45 PM

Oh happy day, Adobe has released Photoshop CS3, but is still dragging its heels on the collections. The website says the versions will ship at the end of April.
You have your choice of "Design Premium," "Web Premium," and "Production Premium." And of course the big daddy of them all, the "Master Collection."
The Master Collection is of course the all inclusive product suite that everyone will want even if they never use anything but photoshop and adobe reader. It weighs in at a
mere $2500.
I find their new marketing slogan particularly appropriate, and maybe somewhat ironic. The slogan is:
"Creative License. Take as much as you want."
Oh, thank you very much, I think I will take all I want and then some.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > MgSO4 as a Desiccant/Best
Desiccants
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wymanthescienceman March 23rd, 2007, 03:34 PM

H a v e a n y o f y o u g u y s u s e d a n h y d r o u s M g S O 4 a s a d e s i c c a n t ? I ' m short on choices and I've tried to UTFSE to find info on using
it but havent found m uch of info on how fast it is or it's efficiency. If anyone knows what it will bring humidity % down to etc. I'd
appreciate it.
I want to use it for drying and keeping dry a tiny batch (~100g) of purified AN, am ong other things. I would just dry the AN in
the oven but I'd rather not, plus I need a desiccant for drying other things as well, pretty m uch whatever I need to. Even if it
won't work fo r drying AN I still need a desiccant. W h a t a r e t h e b e s t d e s s i c a n t s t h a t a n y o f y o u h a v e u s e d ?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Seymore Lecker - k3wL or Expert?
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nbk2000 March 26th, 2007, 12:15 AM

Someone purporting to be Seymour Lecker, author of such 3LL+3 titles as:
Improvised Explosives: How To Make Your Own (and others ('http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/002-7953212-5872004?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-

type=ss&index=books&field-author=Seymour%20Lecker'))
has been PM'ing me and mega, to whine about our alleged piracy of his fine books. :rolleyes:
The gist of his PM's is that he doesn't give a shit if we're "naughty", since he's getting paid. :mad:
I figure that when an author is more concerned with how much money he gets paid for his book, and not on the books worth, than that writer is nothing more than a hack.
Some relevant quotes by Amazon buyers of his books:
Do not expect too much..,

A waste of time, money, effort, very disappointing, a sham
Three BARELY pertinent pages out of 34?
Lecker outdoes himself in the information he DOESN'T provide,
Deadly Brew is one of a series of books by Seymour Lecker, which I hope is a pseudonym. Contained within is simply a list, probably pinched from an OSHA guide, of reactive
liquid chemicals that may explode when mixed. Period. Persons wanting a how-to guide with step - by -step instructions for collecting, assembling and employing a binary
chemical Improvised Explosive Device will be sorely, sorely disappointed. If this book is representative of Mr. Lecker's other work, you would be well - advised to think hard
before shelling out any serious money for any copy in any condition.
So I put it to the masses to vote on the legitimacy of the information in his books.
WMD March 26th, 2007, 07:30 AM

Considering what I've seen of his books, I understand he's concerned that people might see them before they've decided whether to buy them. I wouldn't mind if people
stopped distributing them, as they're a waste of bandwidth but I find it irritating for the author to complain about piracy when a lot of the "info" is copied from other sources.

It would be pretty sad if RS got sued over copyright infringement, over low quality, low priced books like this rather than the Merck Index or Urbanski's....
nbk2000 March 26th, 2007, 08:35 PM

As I explained to the ding-dong, RS doesn't have any of his publications on our server, only links, and not even ones that are valid any longer, so there's nothing that can be
done about it. :p

I tried reading one of his books (don't worry, I didn't pay for it) and I lost interest in the first few pages. This guy is a freaking moron.

That's the BEST thing I can say. Don't upload these books to the FTP for I
will surely be pissed off ! From what I've read these books are a rehash of
the Anarchist's Cook Book with a few correct items thrown in. I emphasize
FEW because most of ACB's information will either dissapoint or KILL the
reader ! Forget those books - the REAL information is here on the Forum !

I bought one of his books a long time ago. Wow, a long list of chemicals that when mixed are potentially explosive. What a complete waste of money. If that is the best
Paladin Press can come up with I am not sorry to see their books get shitcanned. Nobody wants to see censorship of anything, but that stuff isn't accurate anyway, so we are
not actually out anything but in principle.

I bought one of his books years ago. It was the last one I did. The best I can say is he's one step up from Kephart, but only one. Israeli EOD instructor, indeed. I don't know
what he's complaining about. All his stuff went out of print when Paladin stopped selling boom books. It's not cutting him out of any royalties, anyway. He already got more
than his books were worth.
teshilo March 29th, 2007, 12:25 PM

:Lamer lamer and lamer His books contain very very DANGER information:D :D
Cobalt.45 March 29th, 2007, 11:16 PM

Paladin Press is the one of the origional First Amendment rapists who buckled under to the authorities when one of their books was linked to a (double?) murder.
I would sooner lick the third rail than have anything to do with them, or their worthless publications.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Guerilla style aeria l b o m b i n g
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WMD March 26th, 2007, 07:05 AM

C O L O MBO, Sri Lanka (C NN) -- Tam il Tiger rebels used two light aircraft to bom b a n d s t r a f e a n a i r f o r c e b a s e n e x t t o C o l o m b o
International Airport, killing two airm en and wounding 10 others, a spokesman for the group's political wing told CNN.
http://www.cnn.com /2 007/W O R L D / a s i a pcf/03/25/sri.lanka/index.html
W hile there have bee n num erous claim s that the LTTE has som e ultralights, I don't know if they were used in the attack. But I
think the use of im provised attack aircrafts might become a new trend in unconventional warfare. What do you think?
PS: I know the use of ultralights has been discussed be fore, but for me seeing it in the re al world is som ething alltogether
different.

Look up the "Night Witches" of WW II, they were Russian women pilots who flew W W I b i p l a n e s i n h a r r a s s i n g n i g h t b o m bing
r a i d s a g a i n s t G e r m a n troops, they wou ld bomb by the light of their campfires, som etimes they would cut their engin e s a n d
glide in, a silent attack, a really nasty after dinner treat. :)
These kind of attacks have been going on forever and I don't see any reason for them to stop in the future.

The Swede, Count Von Rosen did the same during the Biafran civil war in 69. He outfitted som e very light Swedish p lanes with
rocket pods and extra fuel tanks. They'd fly in low and quiet on their targets, blow the living shit out of them , and scoot off at
treetop level. W orked for a while.

All it really achieves (after the initial surprise) is the inconvenience of of having to position a portable SAM around strategic
targets.
Still, air support always com es in handy (particularly in the terrain the Tam ils operate arou nd) and the psychological benefit is
obtained of being able to strike unpredictably on a wide range of soft targets.

T h e m a i n p r o b l e m is having a supply of aircraft and pilots. For a sm all paramilitary setup, resources could be better spent on
e x p e n d a b l e h u m an p ayload carriers :D .
A new m icrolight is going to cost something in the region of 10-20,000 and they can carry a very sm all payload. An actual
light aircraft is a better option, but they're far m o r e e x p e n s i v e . O f c o u r s e , you could always attack an airfield and steal them ...
T h e r e m i g h t b e s o m e application in using microlights to disperse chem ical and biological weaponry.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C heapass Faraday Cage
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So I was watching "Jericho" (ok so I have no fucking life, so, so what?) and nobody has any electronics, no radios, tvs,
computers, etc... W ell anyway I was wondering why nobody put a little radio in a Faraday cage?
I l o o k e d u p m a k i n g a f a r a d a y c a g e o n the internet web and the best I got was a cardboard box wrapped in m ylar, which seem s
a lot of work, so heres my idea.
Take two alum inum foil containers (the kind yo u get chinese food in), wrap your electronic goodie in a plastic bag, put in in
one containe r, fold th e lips of the bottom container down flat, put the top container on the bottom and fold the lips of the to p
container over the lips of the bottom (its pretty self exp lanitory it you have the two containers in front of yo u.)
This "Faraday cage" is ungrounded, to ground it I'ed take a piece of speaker wire , punch a whole in the lips of the joined
containers, a ttach one end of the speaker wire to the containers ("farada y cage") and the other en d to a ground (a cold water
pipe or whatever) and when the EMP comes you'll be able to listen to doomsday top 40!
I've tried putting a radio in the contain er (not grounded) and it will cut out a lot of signal gain, but it STILL got a sig n a l f r o m a
strong local AM station, so can you tell m e if this PO S would work in the real world and what I could do better, for $2 a n d 5
m inutes of work?
James March 26th, 2007, 07:05 PM

I think I've seen this thread b efore. But anyways get a 55 galon drum and throw a replacement for all of your electronics in it.
(don't forget to put the lid on) W h e n t h e d a y c o m es, yo u will have your gadgets.

[G]et a 55 galon drum and throw a replacemen t for all of your electronics in it. (don't forget to put the lid on) When the day
comes, you will have your gad g e t s .
Yes but if I just wanted to store a portable radio/tv, in a bug out bag say, a 55 gallon drum would seem to be a bit of overkill.
Also individual storage containter (@ $.50 a piece) could make it easier to find things than digging through a barrel. By the way
how much is a 55 gallon m eta l drum ?
IAMZERG March 27th, 2007, 12:17 AM

By the way how much is a 55 gallon m etal drum ?
They are $25 a piece if you know where to look . I still haven't bought one, as I wouldn't have much use for it outside of storing
stuff given m y current location. I really want to make a charcoal retort with one in the future.

How's the conductivity of those drum s? That's something I'd want to check before relying on one for EMP protection. Naturally,
you want your container to be made of as highly conductive a material as possible.
ex tech February 1st, 2008, 0 3 : 4 2 P M

The conductivity isn't really wh at makes this type of Faraday cage work. In this case it has m ore to do with the wavelength of
t h e e m f you are trying to repel. In the case of a pulse, because the event is so short, the total power you are dealing with is
not that great. therefore the one or two millim eter thick steel of the drum s h o u l d b e a b l e t o d i s s i p a t e a n y e n e r g y t h at gets
coupled into the drum . As an alternative, one can also use conductive screen. the only catch is that the holes in the screen
m ust be sm aller than half the wavelength of the em f it is intended to repel. so in the case of defense where you do n't exactly
know what you will be dealing with it would prob ably be best to use a solid container.
Positron February 16th, 2008, 09:19 PM

Hirudinea,
Pretty cool post. The reason that your faraday cage isn't working t o o w e l l , i s t h a t y o u p r o b a b l y h a v e s o m e s e a m s a r o u n d t h e
cage that are not truly connected together. It m ight look like it, and you might swear by it, but until all of the edges are
soldered a hobbyist usually won't have the truly sealed m etal enclosure which is needed to be effective.
The receive sensitivity of the radio you 're using is quite high. AM radio stations typically BLAST power out (sometim e s h u n d r e d s
of kilowatts). Only a tiny am ount of that signal has to get to the radio's front-end electron ics to be detectable.
Fold up a steel window screen and put a radio inside. Solder all of the edges with a $3.00 R adio Shit soldering iron if you have
to, and see if you hear any stations then.
There is no need (that I know of) for a hum an to be inside of th e enclosure. I don't think that an atmospherically-p r o p a g a t e d
E M P c a n c o u p l e e n o u g h e n e r g y t o t h e h u m an b ody to cause dam a g e . S e m iconductor structures: Yes. Hum a n s : P r o b a b l y n o t .
Gotta seal th ose edges on things that aren't going to be soldered or welded. All mating surfaces m u s t b e c l e a n a n d p o l i s h e d .
If you've ever seen high-power RF electronics...all the doors have little brass "fingers" all over them for an electromagnetically-
tight seal.
http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

Hirudinea,
Fold up a steel window screen and put a radio inside. Solder all of the edges with a $3.00 R adio Shit soldering iron if you have
to, and see if you hear any stations then.
T h e s t e e l s c r e e n i d e a sounds good, put a cheap radio in the screen cage and the screen cage in a plastic b o x a n d t h e n y o u r
s a f e should EMP ever hit (and your cage won't get rusty in the box.
There is no need (that I know of) for a hum an to be inside of th e enclosure.
U n l e s s y o u t h i n k y o u h a v e C I A i m plants! ;)
I don't think that an atmospherically-p r o p a g a t e d E M P c a n c o u p l e e n o u g h e n e r g y t o t h e h u m a n b o d y t o c a u s e d a m a ge.

S e m iconductor structures: Yes. Human s: Probably not.
I b e l i e v e E M P w a s ' d i s c o v e r e d ' w h e n t h e U . S . e x p l o d e a h y d r o g e n b o m b a b o v e t h e a t m o s p h e r e o v e r t h e p a cific, it caused

disruptions throughout Hiawaii (sp), knocked out power, radio, telephone , etc..., but nobody was hurt in the least, so I guess
m eat is safe from EMP.
AustRanger March 11th, 2008, 04:11 AM

i'm researching EMP generators for a p roject. I found a webpage going in to a little depth on farada y cages, it claim s:
M a n y c o n t a i n e r s a r e s u i t a b l e f o r m a k e - s h i f t F a r a d a y b o x e s : c a k e b o x e s , a m munition containers, metal filing cabinets, etc.,
etc., can all be used. Despite what you m a y h a v e r e a d o r h e a r d , t h e s e b o x e s d o N O T h a v e t o b e a irtight due to the long wave
leng t h o f E M P ; b o x e s c a n b e m ade of wire screen or other porou s m etal.
The only two requirem ents for protection with a Faraday box are: (1) the equipm e n t i n s i d e t h e b o x d o e s N O T t o u c h t h e m e t a l
container (plastic, wadded paper, or ca rdboard can all be used to insulate it from t h e m e t a l ) a n d ( 2 ) t h e m e t a l s h i e l d i s
continuous without any gaps between pieces or extra-large holes in it.
Grounding a Faraday box is NOT necessary...

t h e p a g e h a s a w h o l e lot of other info, check it out here : http://www.aussurvivalist.com /nu clear/em pprotection.htm
and for anyone conce rned, EMP does not cause harm to the hum a n b o d y .
Gammaray1981 March 18th, 2008, 04:23 PM

Not as yet. W hat about in a few years? I, for one, want m y m usic player implanted in my m a s t o i d b o n e , a n d a t i t a n i u m
replacement for every one of m y hand and wrist bones. Not to m ention a n aerial/m icrophone setup for com pletely hands-fre e
phone calls.
Ten, fifteen years tim e, there'll be enough m etal and electronics inside people to m a k e E M P a p o t e n t i a l p r o b l e m . Even now,
anyone with a pacemaker is at risk.
T h i s i s a G O O D r e a s o n for me tal-encasing your nuclear bunker.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > R DX Synthesis Problems ??
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View Full Version : RDX Synthesis Problems ??
89GTi16V March 27th, 2007, 10:30 PM

I a m s o m ewhat new here, and have already be en warned, after a careful reading of the rules I am trying again...
USE
I a m having problems with m a k i n g R D X . I a m u s i n g M e g a l o m a n ia's method and following them to the num ber. I have wasted
a r o u n d 1 5 0 0 m L of 75% nitric acid, and i need some help.
PARAGR A P H
To start with I have no trouble keeping the tem p e r a t u r e b e l o w 3 0 d e g r e e s C e l s i u s a n d a m a d d i n g t h e h e x a m i n e s l o w l y a s n o t
t o s p i k e t h e t e m perature, i have variations between 7 d e g r e e s C e l s i u s a n d 1 3 d e g r e e s C elsius. After stiring the mixture of
h e x a m ine and nitric acid for 15 m inutes I add it to 1 liter of ice and shake. The crystals form just fine and i filter them out with
no trouble.
BREAKS
Once i try to add the crystals to m ore water, no m atter the temperature (I have tried about 5 different variations of water
temperature from ice water to near boiling), the crystals seem to dissolve into the water. What could i be doing wrong?
NBK
I a m currently drying som e crystals that did not under g o filtration so the y have a extrem ely acidic pH. I dried som e o f t h e
acidic RDX in the sun today and it did detonate with the help of .75 gram s o f a c e t o n e p e r o x i d e - s e e m s to be powerful but it
isnt safe unless it is neutralized. Is it possible to neutralize in acetone or other such chem ical.
Notice the i's? Those are hints to what letter is ALW AYS capitalized when used in reference to yourself. That's in the Rules.
fiknet March 28th, 2007, 05:24 AM

...75% nitric acid...
S o u n d s l i k e y o u h a v e just been m aking HDN th e whole tim e , y o u n e e d a r o u n d 9 6 -99% fum ing Nitric Acid fo r RDX
The_Duke March 28th, 2007, 05:27 AM

You have already recieved one warning, I don't think yo u'll be given a se cond...
T h i s p o s t i s a n e x a m p l e o f l a z i n e s s i n i t ' s m o s t p u r e s t a n d c o n t e m ptuous form, for sham e o n y o u .
stephenb25 March 28th, 2007, 06:16 AM

" P u t 3 3 5 m L o f 1 0 0 % n i t r i c a c i d i n a 5 0 0 - m L b e a k e r " m e g a l o m a nia's site
a stated you need 96 -100% HNO3 in order to make RDX
Try reading a bit better next time. It saves acids and harsh criticism
89GTi16V March 28th, 2007, 11:25 AM

Yea, I see that now a nd feel like an idiot, but still it did answer m y q u e s t i o n s o t h a n k s g u y s !
But, this is still an explosive so does a nyone know how to neutralize it, apparently not many people know about this stuff
b e c a u s e t h e t h r e a d s o n i t d o n 't seem to go into detail - I guess it is pointless to m ake this when you could just make RDX, but
still, I am curious now.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Vista: Best of whats new or worst of whats wrong?
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View Full Version : Vista: Best of whats new or worst of whats wrong?

I have yet to hear of any positive or favorable remarks about the new Windows Vista operating system, except from Microsoft that is. I suspect some sort of must have
software will eventually crop up that is Vista only compatible that will force everyone to migrate, so we all might as well get ready for the change.
In the mean time I was wondering if anyone here has it or intends to get it. I am getting the impression that Vista is just a dot release with a huge price tag that offers little
more than a fancy display screen and some security improvements any knowledgeable user already has through third party apps.
Microsoft says Vista brings many security improvements to the table. What would those be exactly? A crappy firewall? An integrated virus scan? Maybe that drive encryption
feature. All of these features can be had by third party apps that are better than any integrated feature Micro$oft has offered.
Anything else worth noting? Aero? Oh great, f ancy transparent windows. Thats worth a RAM upgrade, right? What about its use of system resources? If prior Windows
releases are any indication, Vista will force many old computers into obsolescence.
Is there anything that Vista can do that XP cannot? I mean there is software I have now, things I do now, so how will Vista make what I am already doing better? I hear there
are many software incompatibilities to contend with. It would be a shame to upgrade to a new OS just to find out it does not do anything different, or worse, will not run my
apps.
How about the piracy issue? I saw there was a hoax keygen out there that had some webizens all a titter with indignation. Has Micro$oft given up on their doomed quest to
protect their software (which only hurts clueless news anyway), or have they tried to challenge the hackers anew with more robust activation restrictions?
If you want my opinion, Vista is just a marketing ploy. They had 5 years to improve the software and all we get is XP service pack 3. This is a far cry from all the hubbub when
Win 95 was released. Anyone care to make the case for Vista and enlighten the class as to its virtues?
nbk2000 March 28th, 2007, 05:58 PM

Without even having seen it, I can state with complete confidence that there will have been the following 'improvements':
A new, highly aggravating registration process for the O/S
A more restrictive and intrusive DRM scheme that'll prevent you from playing, let alone copying, CD's and DVD's on your computer.
More hidden backdoors into your system that only Microshit, LE, and hackers will know about and use.
More useless crap bundled in with the O/S by Microshits 'partners' (read 'paid advertisments') that'll create an endless parade of pop-ups and 'system notifications' on your
computer, in an attempt to get you to pay for 'upgrades', which really means extortion payments to leave you alone on your own computer. :rolleyes:

I will not be upgrading to Vista for the reasons given above.
Actually, I am migrating further towards Linux. I'm having trouble getting Wine to work RipIt4Me, but I'm getting closer. THAT is the ONLY thing keeping me on Window$.
I have uTorrent working under Linux along with a few other programs. To be honest, besides a few progs, Linux has equal or better software.
The DRM shit really pissed me off. The MPAA and RIAA have NO clue how to interpret the law properly. Of course, why should they. They threw a goddammed fit when
cassette tapes came out. Now with entire discographies in torrents available I don't see how they can win the battle.
Also, I've read the reviews of Vista. Just like 95 it is going to be a stinker for a year. So, if you do want or need it, hold out until they get the bugs out. Many of the "new"
features have been available for a while on other OSes. Tabbed browsing on the new Explorer?! Holy shit! :rolleyes: Too bad it can fuck up your SSL transactions.
Transparent windows? Very nice, if you are a power user. You can really benefit. But, again, Linux and others have had it for a while. And it does hog the RAM. I've heard that
Vista may need 2 gigs of RAM to run optimumly. I rather spend the money on a terabyte of Seagates.

Tabbed browsing on IE. Wow! What an original idea. I wish Firefox would come up with something like that because it sounds useful. Oh, wait a minute, that's been a feature
of Firefox forever and is why I dropped IE forever as the stinking pile of crap it is.
What's next for IE I suppose? Maybe plugins to improve functionality? Firefox beat you there. Browser restoration of tabs? Firefox. Easy customizability of core features. Firefox.
A browser that does not crash and burn on every website. Firefox.
Now if only someone would come out with an app to completely rip IE out of windows and replace the file browsing with Firefox :)
Ooh, I almost forgot to mention that Windows has used the carrot and stick approach to get people to install that M$ authentication update (genuine advantage I believe) that
tells you if your copy of XP is genuine or not. If you don't install it you can't get the latest IE or aero for XP! Oh no! Install a defective DRM tool to get two apps I don't want?
HA!
tmp March 28th, 2007, 10:19 PM

In every profession there's always three words that scare the hell out of
the practitioners of said profession. For those students of engineering it's
usually "some assembly required". For the rest of us, and I speak as an
experienced systems programmer/analyst, "new and improved" is that phrase
that strikes fear into our hearts.
The only things I've heard about Vista are entirely negative. The biggest
complaint is that MicroShit is giving blowjobs to the MPAA and RIAA by
incorporating the so-called "anti-piracy" software. To MicroShit, MPAA, and
RIAA - BLOW ME YOU GREEDY COCKSUCKERS !
Sausagemit March 29th, 2007, 12:38 AM

For those students of engineering it's
usually "complete assembly required (instructions not included, they can be purchased for $35.00)".
Fixed ;)
I've been running Vista x64 Ultimate pretty much since it was released to the public. It runs really good (better than XP on my computer) as long as you turn off all the bullshit
that is suppose to protect your computer and all the completely unnecessary stuff.
Vista does take much better advantage of multi processor systems and it responds better to overclocking especially on a multi processor system. Probably why it runs better on
my computer than XP.
I could really give two shits about upgraded security especially when someone who can't hack their way out of a wet paper bag can hack Vista with the standard security
software.
The only software problem I have ran into yet is with SolidWorks and Foobar2000. And it's just little annoying graphical things (always on startup, never while running) that can
be fixed by literally wiggling the program around.
Overall, I'm really happy with it but you will never ever get me to pay for a copy because I hear from a usually reliable source you can only activate the product key 3 times
before it becomes invalid. If this is true it is complete bullshit for computer enthusiasts (gamers mostly) who upgrade their hardware at least 3 times in a year and require a
complete reinstall of the OS.
EDIT: And I haven't had a single problem ripping, burning, infringing on copyrights, copying full DVD's, or general piracy on Vista.
Bugger March 29th, 2007, 01:46 AM

If you are worried about all the DRM and anti-piracy and spyware stuff included in Windows Vista, you should use instead one of the last versions of its betas, called Longhorn,
which are available as cracked pirate Torrent downloads. These features are all absent from Longhorn.
There is also a "Black" cracked version of Windows XP, an improved "Corporate" version with SP2 which does not require activation, and which has several other useful
programs bundled with it. I have a Torrent for downloading it, which I will try to attach to this post if I can find out how to attach it. (Otherwise, I will upload it to Rapidshare or
something).
P.S. I have since found that files cannot be attached to posts in this part of the forums, unfortunately.
Memories March 29th, 2007, 03:27 AM

Vista from the tests I have seen uses about 5-10 more watts of power at IDLE. So your baseline resources is (of course) diminished with Vista. There is no practical reason to
upgrade to VISTA, and the people saying it is faster are truly experiencing the placebo effect. Of course x64 Vista will be faster than x86 XP (32bit), are you comparing XP64 to
Vista64, probably not.
I'm going to stick to XP/2K as long as I can and then move to Linux when it matures a bit more. I like the Linux concept, but personally, I am not completely happy with the
desktop experience it can offer (great for servers though).
I agree with megalomania, there will be some "reason" in a few years to upgrade to VISTA, probably as companies stop supporting XP with driver updates.

A new, highly aggravating registration process for the O/S
A more restrictive and intrusive DRM scheme that'll prevent you from playing, let alone copying, CD's and DVD's on your computer.
More hidden backdoors into your system that only Microshit, LE, and hackers will know about and use.
Exactly why I hate MS and won't upgrade to Vista. I don't like when a corporate big brother watches me.The only reason I'm not on Linux right now is the games support.

Frunk, you may want to investigate Cedega. It is non-free software for linux, but you should find it in warez. However, it requires a monthly subscription.
It allows you to play window$ games under linux. I know it's not ideal, but once your hate for MS grows as much and as deep as mine has, you might want to compromise.
Check it out if you want:

http://www.transgaming.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=2&meid=-1
Otherwise you can tackle Wine (Wine Is Not an Emulator). It is free, but may give you troubles at times. But it is getting better everyday.
mr_bacon July 1st, 2008, 02:12 AM

In my experience, Vista isn't worth upgrading to unless you have a bunch of computing power to spare.
I installed it on an old desktop with a gig of RAM, and everything slowed down. Vista hogged up all the system's resources, even with Aero and all the other crap turned off. I
ended up downgrading back to XP.
But a laptop that I purchased with 4 gigs of RAM running vista (64bit) runs great.
My take is, if you're buying a new comp with plenty of memory and a decent processor, vista is fine, no reason to downgrade to XP like a lot of users are doing. But the new,
transparent interface and minimal security upgrades really aren't worth the price, or the pain in the ass for anyone looking for an upgrade of an older comp.
ChippedHammer July 1st, 2008, 01:10 PM

I'm in a split mind, a while back I had Vista on the laptop (fairly old) and it ran like a charm, looked great and was fast etc. After a month or two it went from good to bad, it
started chugging and things started to 'break'.
I ended up shitcanning it and went back to XP, haven't regretted it for a second. The only advantage it (Vista) had over XP was that it looked better, security was poor,
compatibility still is poor. Aside from that, I wont be using it any time soon.
XP and SUSE in this household :)
iHME July 1st, 2008, 07:53 PM

From what I have used vista I can say that it has more than a double use of memory on idle compared to xp(350mb idle on xp, 990mb idle on vista).
With the computer I use atm I will seriously not upgrade to vista, it has nothing for me.
DirectX 10, my GPU has only 9.0c

I'd have to buy a new sound card (my Hercules 5.1 game surround muse has no vista drivers)
It would not fit on the 7gb partition that I have for windows.
It is slow unless you have atleast 2gb of ddr2 and a higher end dual core. (I have AMD Athlon 64 3500+ OC @ 2,45 GHz with 1,2gb ddr1)
I have allready all the eye candy vista could provide to me on my xubuntu installation (tough I use Gnome instead of xfce).
I seriously recommend upgrading to xp from vista, or taking a leap and start using linux. Unless you are a hard core gamer or movie editor linux has everything you need. Just
don't think is "a free copy of windows" it is LiNUX not windows, thus it is different.
Joxer July 1st, 2008, 08:19 PM

It came with my laptop, and I have not had any problems with it. I get fewer crashes than I got with XP on my other machines, and the few times I had a Vista program lock
up I didnt need to do a soft reboot. The error handling just closes the offending program without resorting to ctrl-alt-del. I have never had to do a hard reboot with Vista, yet.
But I wouldn't upgrade a XP machine for the reasons given by others.
FUTI July 2nd, 2008, 09:55 AM

I didn't tried Vista and won't do that for a long time. When I read a news long time ago about "small" bug it had I said myself that is still half-baked product that I might test in
a year or two when they finish it. Imagine a OS that support voice recognition and voice control but also allow that hostile web site play a voice message that order your OS to
erase all dll's. Hm. I can't wait to see the patch for that...warning message "you can't do that because your speakers are on" :-D.
As for spy shit big brother do... I like Firefox 3.0 (warning not all add-ons Mega recomended in other thread work under 3.0). When you scroll add-ons you notice that Windows
Genuine Advantage is "turned off for your safety" :-).
I would switch to Linux if I'm not so old and lazy to learn yet another OS handling. But since my country invested lot of money to go to localized open source OS and Office
programs on governmental level I might be forced to do so.
Charles Owlen Picket July 2nd, 2008, 10:24 AM

As you know I've used Linux for a long damn time. I do have some MS machines and have to use their shit at work but there is a reality and FUTI stated it simply...with a MS
product; WAIT! Some present machines are "Vista-designed". They can & will offer a platform that will be functional. The roll-out for Windows 95 was a case study in how MS
does things. If you ever really want to know how that company operates, research that product. (it was a DOS product....all Windows products are DOS until NT kernel products
like NT3.51 / 4.x & WIN2K)
I know a wee bit about Microsoft.....Marketing runs their show not the production people (programmers, etc). If a release candidate is functional, they get a time-line and
that's life: it's gotta' be released THEN or heads will roll..... Programming for beta-glitch issues be damned. And aside from all that Vista is a graphics milieu. It's designed to
look pretty. I don't want to pay for "pretty". If others do....that's great. I see nothing wrong with that; in itself. It's just not a priority for me.
ChippedHammer July 2nd, 2008, 12:13 PM

Linux is very nice, I run it on all of my servers but not on my main machine (due to most of the software I use being native to windows, tried WINE and it didn't feel 'right'). I
am slowly changing that, I am now using open office which I think is much better than M$'s product and am looking for open source multiplatform software when I need a
certain program.
Charles - How is WINE (wine is not a emulator, funny how I remember that) today? When I last used it it felt sluggish and just didn't feel right, compatibility was also pretty
low (couldn't get photoshop or my usenet client to work).
Charles Owlen Picket July 2nd, 2008, 08:35 PM

Frankly I also use Open Office!
We all have that "feel" you're talking about. What I like is a "snappy" fast painting screen. [I was a real 'UX and DOS freak. I really felt at home with a prompt.] So I can't
comment directly because what I like may not be important to you. But I'll try with a generalist comment of what it will do with REAL Windows-oriented programs that are
REALLY made for the MS product.
I have a friend still works in Marketing and uses Adobe products. Photoshop being his mainstay. This guy REALLY uses this stuff and was an Adobe beta tester for about 6
years. He wanted a box I had that had the ability to hold 4+ DVD drives on a SCSI card so I gave it to him for a amp that he had (he isn't into playing anymore). The box had
SUSI 9x and Samba as a client but someone had put in WINE and not played with it. (I'm almost sure it was WINE). The new SUSI doesn't have a lot of conflicts like Red Hat;
you can just put stuff in and play with it. Kernel upgrades are VERY smooth.....It not like the old Berkley UNIX and all that "compile and wait & see shit". It ran faster with
2Gigs & a large Intel single (I think a 2.3Gb) or something close than his AMD dual core 64! & the last XP (Sept) and the Vista upgrade. Most guys don't use emulators
anymore; even though they still have a following. BUT.....the version wasn't the latest PhotoShop! That was something I remember. Red Hat doesn't like Adobe products. SUSI
likes everything. I'm still on SUSI 10x on a dual core HP for work. The WINE you want is .0.9.52
I have a thing about seeing the screen paint or freeze. I want that screen to paint faster than my eyes can perceive. That's my "feel" thing. IF you have a similar feel
issue....you'll dig it. But if your issue is with great sound I must say that Windows high end sound drivers beat any 'UX driver I've heard....Just my opinion. I also like a very
"business-like" look & feel. I play music very rarely on a computer, that what I have a stereo for (or a fucking iPod or whatever).
I also have a younger friend who plays games. He tried to get some stuff to work and said that he was surprised that SOME stuff DOES not only light up but runs well with
fewer freezes. BUT he doesn't play on-line stuff. My deal is with SUSI because it's very European and is very "serious" looking. It also has a FAST set-up. So I can wipe a
laptop and get SUSI on that thing just like Windows. Version 10 is "prettier" than version 9x that looks like a "government" machine as it will boot to a prompt box unless you
configure the thing to hide root completely. It was made that way because in Germany they love to connect to stuff in coffee shops or at University I think. Check this place; I
read it all the fucking time:
http://www.linux.com/articles/54920
Shadowmartyr July 6th, 2008, 10:26 PM

....it's a Windows product, you are never going to hear very many good things about it. Not to mention Vista is a complete memory and CPU hog with all the fancy desktop
animations and graphics. I don't need the fucking menu bar to make noise and light up every time I open it? Things like that, and the overall downgrade from XP (ie; strict
rules on emulation, tcp/ip tools removed -somebody told me they couldn't even telnet from a vista command prompt-, etc) have made it worthless.
But what do you expect, like I said, Windows is geared towards the mainstream average computer user with no knowledge of how the system operates or its basic
fundamentals, Anyone remotely serious about computers does NOT use a Windows OS unless its an absolute must (emulation, games, non-portable programs like photoshop).
And even if you do play games, there is a module out now that lets you install DX10 on XP (not like you need it, a recent test on high-end gaming machines led researchers to
the conclusion that DX10 did NOT make any significant boost on the benchmarking results).
I suggest any Unix variant, specifically one using the Linux Kernel. For n00bs I would recommend Ubuntu or Knoppix. Or if you REALLY want to learn the Unix operating
system, Slackware.
In other words, if you don't want to go through the trouble of installing a Linux distro, keep Windows XP until Micro$oft drops there extended support phase (sometime in 2010
I think?) and then move on.
Charles Owlen Picket July 7th, 2008, 11:59 AM

NT4 was as close to a functional system as they made. Microsoft, being marketing controlled, drove past what could have allowed them to control where the future goes. They
are actually always try to decide.....and that's part of the problem. There needs to be a real business/enterprise foundational system and a "home. noob, intro-system", that
has enough add-on's for the "advanced" home user. For those who really DO use XP, they spend a GREAT deal of time STRIPPING DOWN th "bells and whistles" junk to get to
the heart of their system. I am not exaggerating that I believe that the heart of their NT system could generally be less than half the size sold as is.
They're releases were just more bells & whistles......very little new shit. The look and feel difference between NT 3.51 and 4 was the old windows and what many think of as
the "win95 look". They stuck there until XP with that "fuck me I'm Irish green start button". I'm really not a fan of MS products. I actually didn't even have an XP machine until
about 8 months ago. The idea of hardware chasing software and the continued expansion of drive size, RAM and chip size (& speed / strength) is ludicrous! In 1989 the larger,
real business machines (outside of real Mini's and Mainframes) was 40Mb. Novell on top of DOS worked remarkably well. The concept of wireless was spoken of back in the
90's with the understanding that it could never really be safe. Today, no financial institution has invested in wireless for any CRITICAL office-level function and WANs are still
using the telco or sat-com system. MIT did several experiments with such small EMP "weapons" as Tesla Coils & found that students could stop many businesses cold with a
battery powered device. Imagine what a really powerful EMP weapon could do if pointed at a business dependent on low gigahertz frequency?
To gather the market share MS drove Novell into the completion to use wireless & the public bought it. Now that's all history because the public believes that their stuff is
secure because MS continually boasts about it's "government-level" security! We actually had gone backwards in security from the days of direct BBS contacts via telco line and
old style DOS PGP encrypted bursts of text.
A LONG time back their support people were all told to always make reference to "Microsoft DOS" or "Microsoft windows", always demanding that they put the company name
into everyday discussions. Their marketing people are ALL the female 20-something recent grads, who actually do all the ground pounding for a the 50-something male
marketing decision makers. Those fucks crunch numbers until they actually get back to square-one over and over but never learn anything new.
Ygarl July 20th, 2008, 11:58 AM

Fixed ;)
I've been running Vista x64 Ultimate pretty much since it was released to the public. It runs really good (better than XP on my computer) as long as you turn off all the bullshit
that is suppose to protect your computer and all the completely unnecessary stuff.
That pretty much says it all:

Once you disable all the things M$ put in Vista which was supposed to be "better" than XP it works better than XP if you have a top-notch processor!
Of course, WINE is getting better and better on my 1GHz Pentium 4 (which had Windows ME on it before getting reformatted!), and I get all sortsa neat things running on it like
Half-Life 2, etc.
Why M$ decided to upgrade the OS to one which is slower on everyone's pre-existing PC and expected everyone to PAY for the privilage is completely beyond me.
Bah.
iHME July 20th, 2008, 01:34 PM

Has any one herd of "Workstation 2008" it is Microsoft Windows Server 2008 turned into a workstation, it has the SAME kernel as vista but uses 2/3 of the ram and is more
responsive, or so I have heard. It doesn't also have any DRM crap, who would need drm on a server?
http://blogs.msdn.com/vijaysk/archive/2008/02/11/using-windows-server-2008-as-a-super-desktop-os.aspx
Caesium July 27th, 2008, 09:21 AM

I have Vista Home Premium on my desktop (it came with it) since it came out. My XP-running laptop crashed beyond repair at the worst possible time, so I had to get a
desktop with preinstalled Vista (the only computer my wallet was able to pay for after spending some 800 on chemicals and lab equipment).
It worked great for the first month, but then it started to run slower and slower, until it started to show some real trouble right around Christmas. I started looking for a
replacement, but due to a lack of time due to massive amounts of schoolwork and the de facto start of 2007/2008 debating season, I couldn't do any real research in this field.
When the school year ended in June, I was finally able to check and compare the features and I decided to buy a MacBook Pro. It's a 15" model with 4GB of memory, 200GB
HDD and 2.4-GHz Intel Core 2 Duo CPU. Mac OS X v10.5 Leopard works like a charm and has, in my opinion at least, a better user interface. I'm definitely not going back to
Windows in the next four years.
James August 3rd, 2008, 12:13 AM

Eye candy and games sell, lots of feature bullets sell slightly lesss. Nobody cares about resource use because the freaking machines keep dropping in cost.
iHME August 3rd, 2008, 04:20 PM

I seem to be unable to find the reference but I read some where that the days of cheap computers might be over in a few (maybe tens of) years.
But damn I don't remember correctly why it would happened It made sense tough.
Had to do something with economics and availability of materials, knowledge and manufacturing capacity.
Sorry for a post that might have little intellectual value.
But seriously, there will be a time when adding the n+1:th core won't any more bring enough performance rise to run the bloated software, be it silicon, carbon or biological
chips. This of course won't probably be a threath that is close.
Now back on operating systems. Do you remember when you used a pc with 133Mhz pentium, 16mb ram, 2gb of hdd and you did fine?
You surfed the web with your IE 1.0 on Windows 95, and it was fast and responsive.
Now even my ADSL modem (233Mhz ARM w/ 32mb ram) has more processing power than my first machine (p1 133Mhz,16mb ram).
It has so much power that I'm thinking about transforming an slightly damaged ADSL-wlan modem in to a desktop. But seriously I think that there will be two lines of hardware
and software in the future the efficient ones making use the resources available and the ones that are bloated and need more and more resources to do the same which they
did before.
Sorry if I wandered off the topic :)

This post became longer than originally tought.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Nazi handgun!
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A neighbor of mine who was in WWII is passing away, and has given my mother power of attorney as he has no family to speak of.
While she was searching through his house to sort things to sell to pay for his bills, she found a WaltherPP with the US army paperwork that stated it was a legally taken from
prisoners/enemy forces and the my neighbor legally claimed it as his.
The gun is chambered for 7.65 and has about 3 iron eagles stamped on it(so it was made by the nazis as well as used by them). I was wondering if any of you guys had any
idea of its worth. I don't want to sell it but since it is not mine, I may have to "buy" it from my neighbor, at a price my mother chooses, as he is not able to make decisions
such as that.
festergrump March 29th, 2007, 05:03 PM

WOW!
To your neighbor on his deathbed I'm sure it's priceless, as are probably every single one of his memories to go along with his participation in the war.
It's really hard to put a pricetag on something like that. It's value is really only as high as the thickness of the heartstrings it tugs on... So long as I could sit down and listen to
the man's story of how it was acquired, documenting it all on not only paper but also audio media, I'd almost be willing to offer my left testicle for it.
Since he has no family in which to heirloom his most prized possessions, you might find that the price he asks would be only to know that it will find a good home with
someone who values it as much as he does/did. But since your mom wants to do the "right thing" and pay a dying man a financial sum for it, I'd easily peel off a couple of
hundred dollar bills to appease her mind that she did good by him. He probably cares less about money so much as making his peace with God about now.
Please tell me you can provide some nice pictures, even if it doesn't eventually find it's way permanently into your hands. With good closeups of the Nazi insignias stamped
upon it you are sure to find someone online more knowledgeable of the true monetary value it holds, which assuredly will be much less value than I would/could ever put on it.
Having it appraised by a reputable gunsmith with some WWII knowledge might be a good idea. Definitely worth a couple of bucks just to know it's bottom worth in estimation.
If you ever DO end up with it as your own, I'd make it a point to take it to the Antiques Roadshow when they're in your area. No shit. You'll almost assuredly find an expert
there who will look at the markings and serial number and practically piss his pants as he tells you off the top of his head some real gems about it's history just from serial
numbers and the markings alone. After he calls some colleages of his, might even be able to research the name of the gentleman officer it was issued to.
I don't think I have to tell you that I am envious of your (hopeful) new prized possession... :)
Does it just have the Nazi eagles or does it also have the Swastika? Original holster?

If it's in good condition and still fires (hasn't been deactivated) I would say a whole lot to the right person.
The markings on the gun will determine weather it was an Wehrmacht officers pistol or Polizei (police) pistol. There may have been more Walther PP's that were marked by the
Nazi's but I haven't heard of them.
The two following links are pictures of a police pistol
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h256/sausagemit/ssPP-10.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h256/sausagemit/ssPP-13.jpg
And the next two are of an officers pistol
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h256/sausagemit/PPnazi-13.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h256/sausagemit/PPNazi-7.jpg

Since he is on his deathbed and all, wouldn't a better solution be to give away all the merchandise to the deserving while he is still alive and stick the banks with the bill after
he is dead? After all, the dead care not for their debts, and the bill collectors can't go after any family if there isn't any.
I don't think anyone, even a knowledgeable person of antique firearms, could render a decision without actually seeing the item. You may have to find an actual appraiser who
deals in such things. Actually, you will want two or three opinions since any one is likely to lowball you and offer to pay a few hundred bucks for your "toy" when it is really
worth tens of thousands of dollars.

If you have difficulty locating an experienced appraiser, try flipping through Shotgun News. There is always a column near the front that goes over antique firearms. Contact
the writer if you'd like. He seems quite knowledgeable.
I have to partially agree with Mega's post above. Although, he should not get ripped off of his last remaining possessions, he should not have to fork over thousands of dollars
to the government. His family should not have to part with it either after his death.
I know of someone that had their father "gift" them 30 grand under the table. The son then took care of the father when needed and the government was stuck with some
bills after the father died. The hospital sent the son some small bills, and he basically told them to fuck-off and try going after the wetbacks that pop babies out for free in their
buildings.
Fuck the blood-sucking assholes. If at all possible, keep the items and cash underground. No checks or wires transfers. Do not report it, or drastically under report it. Use your
head, but stick it to the fucking government.
I wish the gentleman a dignified passing.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Jews Pushing Hard To
Criminalize Dissent, Especially Over The Internet
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jpsmith123 November 16th, 2007, 10:00 AM

I haven't seen the PowerPoint presentation referred to by the Judenfilth in the following linked document, but I understand it
juxtaposes the web site of "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" against alleged "Taliban recruitment websites".
http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=3577145
I guess anybody who wonders aloud why we cannot see what was on the photos/video made by the 5 "dancing Jews" in Liberty
Park on 9/11, for example, or who wonders what made WTC7 collapse, or who wonders why the investigation into the anthrax
attacks was stonewalled, is to be deemed a "homegrown terrorist"?
On the bright side, the major role of organized Jewry in the downfall of the U.S. is now plain to see. As more and more people
wake up to realize what's happening to our country, the Jews seem to be showing some signs of desperation as they try to
micromanage everything, to the point of absurdity; revealing their hand as never before.

Ever notice how the jews can (and will) bring up Nazi's and the hollowhoax in EVERYTHING they talk about?
WTF does the hollowhoax have to do with radical Islamic theology?
The more the jews scream about 'conspiracy theory' and how the US government had nothing to do with 9/11, the more I'm
inclined to believe the opposite.
Kaydon November 16th, 2007, 08:07 PM

The more the jews scream about 'conspiracy theory' and how the US government had nothing to do with 9/11, the more I'm
inclined to believe the opposite.
Exactly.
They're really running out of things to make us feel sorry for. They're fighting a battle they can't win, Americans and people
world-wide are finally starting to realize they are full of shit.
hickey November 17th, 2007, 12:37 AM

Jews are worse than ragheads as they are manipulative people....
Look what they did to many western governments
Their clout is affecting the political landscape worldwide:mad:
They kept using the holocaust issue to gain symphaty to their cause.....
LibertyOrDeath November 17th, 2007, 12:54 AM

The situation is a lot worse than most people realize. Jews have never been more powerful in the world than they are today. If
the US government catered to their interests any further, this nation would have to be renamed the United States of Israel.
Worst of all, most Americans are either clueless about this or don't want to hear about it.
The Jews have done an excellent job of making Americans care about what Jews care about. They've always thought of non-
Jews as their slaves and inferiors, but now that's becoming the reality. The fact that Americans are now fighting wars for them -
- losing lives, limbs, and astronomical amounts of money -- says it all.
The reason for the Jewish obsession with Nazism is because their constant harping about it helps to perpetuate their status as
eternal innocent victims. They believe that gives them the moral high ground and the right to do pretty much anything to
anyone:
-- Kick Arabs out of their ancestral homes so that Jews can move in, then brutalize the refugees and condemn those who
bravely fight back;
-- Massacre sailors on the USS Liberty so it can be blamed on the Egyptians;
-- Scheme to use the US military to fight the opponents of Israeli hegemony in the Middle East;
-- Demand that the US promote destructive diversity and multiculturalism within its own (open) borders while insisting that
Israel remain a Jewish state
The worst thing about it all is that most whites buy into it. :mad:
It's going to get worse, though. Emperor Bushowitz has signed into law the Global Anti-Semitism Review Act (http://
majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/the_prison_cells_that_await_us/), which is yet another US government
endorsement of the "specialness" of Jews. How is anti-Semitism defined? As telling the truth about Jews, of course: pointing
out their tribal agenda and their organized subversion of government and societal institutions to achieve it.
Here's an older law that singles Jews out as special:
In 1977, the US Congress passed a law creating the Office of Antiboycott Compliance within the Department of Commerce to
make sure that the Arab boycott of Israel does not take root in the US. Such actions would create de facto foreign policy; an
area that Congress affirmed is under its jurisdiction. The law established that no US persons may take actions in support of an
unsanctioned foreign boycott of a nation that is friendly to the United States. The law mainly applies to Israel, and as a result,
nobody in the US may engage in a boycott of Israel in support of the Arab boycott of Israel.
http://www.boycottwatch.org/abi/divest002.htm (Note: this site is almost certainly run by Jews.)
"Hate crime" laws will also be gradually strengthened to the point where any speech offensive to Jews or other special groups
will be outlawed -- just as the Jews have made it illegal to so much as publicly question any detail of the holocaust in several
European countries. (Of course, when the ragheads get upset about someone skewering their sacred cow, Mohammed, the
Jews and their useful idiots scream about how "Islamofascists" want to restrict freedom of speech. Pure kosher hypocrisy.)
So, what's the bottom line to all this? It's given by the title of this thread. Jewish supremacists want criticism of them and other
groups that they use to push their agenda (e.g., niggers) outlawed.
Of course, it doesn't help that people like us, who have taken the Red Pill and see through the Jews' schemes, are greatly
outnumbered by brainwashed maggots like Hagee's flock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaXs8MdmXWY :mad: :mad: :mad:
Some Palestinians have decided that blowing themselves up (with TATP, no less, as it's often the only thing they can get) and
taking a few of their oppressors with them is preferable to living in lifelong humiliation under the Jewish boot. I hope we white
Americans never allow things to get to that point.

I won't be strapping on any explosives and blowing myself up, that's for damn sure.
Is it just me, or is it every day on some news channel they're running their mouths about "hate crimes?" I try to avoid the
news as much as I can, but flippin' channels I catch those two words more often than anything else..
Niggers... The Jew bastards have been supporting them far too long, and the whole Civil Rights Movement was backed by a
bunch of Communists, and Jews, and Communism is a Jew phenomenon. It's funny to hear people say they hate
Communists, but how they love their Jewish friends.... But really, they (Jews and Niggers) are running out of things to try and
make Americans feel sorry for..
Speakin of the nigs, http://www.martinlutherking.org/rapperlyrics.html should piss anyone off. Oh and look, one's off of Time
Warner records, Time Warner being owned by Jews. Nice.
festergrump November 17th, 2007, 06:05 PM

Kaydon, you're right. It does piss me off big time.
I'm sure I posted this before back when the Water Cooler was around, but since it's no longer, I will again since it relates to
your posted link...
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/black3x6os.gif
I think it's funny in a "Ha ha.......no shit" sort of way.
Dodecahedron November 18th, 2007, 09:56 AM

This is absurd. These "Jews" you describe are mostly the jews position of great power; and the same conspiracies you ascribe
to the jews collectively, seem to be the actions of a relatively small proportion of the jews in the world. Furthermore, don't most
people in such positions of power have similar schemes?
Ever notice how the jews can (and will) bring up Nazi's and the hollowhoax in EVERYTHING they talk about?
I have seen that characteristic before, not in all of the Jewish people I have met, though it is common. But than again, a black
might talk about slavery, and if some catastrophe occurred on white people in the recent past, I'm sure a healthy number of
white people would "mention" it once in a while (generally to non whites). It's human nature to use anything that one can for
gain, such as attention or power. Thats what this is.
Jews are worse than ragheads as they are manipulative people.... Not all jews are manipulative, not all arabs blow themselves
up in busses, and indeed, many are/do not. I know many white manipulative people though, though I find most americans to
be too lazy to become suicide bombers.
Jews and their useful idiots scream about how "Islamofascists" want to restrict freedom of speech. Pure kosher hypocrisy.)
So? I've noticed this too, and especially the part of holocaust denial banning is disgusting. That doesn't mean I agree or
disagree. It just means that there is a feud between the two cultures and right now the Jewish side has more power. Recall the
situation of the US v. USSR. Similar things have happened.
Niggers... The Jew bastards have been supporting them far too long, and the whole Civil Rights Movement was backed by a
bunch of Communists, and Jews, and Communism is a Jew phenomenon. It's funny to hear people say they hate
Communists, but how they love their Jewish friends.... But really, they (Jews and Niggers) are running out of things to try and
make Americans feel sorry for..
?
FesterGrumps comic is funny though. And disgustingly true.

to the jews collectively, seem to be the actions of a relatively small proportion of the jews in the world.No, it's not ALL Jews, just
like not all niggers want to "free the Jena Sis!" and so forth. But a large proportion are sympathetic to their tribe and support
the promotion of its agenda, whether on the left (multiculturalism, "hate crimes" laws, gun control) or on the neocon "right"
(endless US wars for Israel, suppression of dissent at home, general police-state fascism).
Here's something I want to point out right away: the fact that Jews are a small proportion of the overall population means
nothing about their power. Al Capone's gang were a tiny proportion of Chicago's population, yet their power over that city was
obviously extensive. It all comes down to organization -- and the Jews are extremely well-organized. Whites, by contrast, are
forbidden to organize along similar ethnic lines. Jews have set the rules, and they have the vast numbers of niggers, other
non-whites, and leftist whites to add clout to those rules.
Jews are probably the most ethnocentric people on the planet, with a seemingly uncountable number of political organizations
devoted to promoting their tribal interests: AIPAC, JINSA, WZO, ZOA, ADL, AJC, WJC,... The list is quite long, and these
organizations have Congress and the US government by the balls. Jews are already a small proportion of the population, so
how successful could all these groups be if only a small percentage of this small percentage were active in such groups?
Then there are all the neocon think tanks such as the American Enterprise Institute which aren't officially Jewish but have been
hijacked by neocon Jews into serving their purposes: chiefly, promoting the US War on Islam. The same is true for many
media outlets and most of talk radio, as Zionist Jews like Rupert Murdoch own a disproportionate share of these platforms.
Furthermore, don't most people in such positions of power have similar schemes?With the exception of the Mafia, which
operates in a manner similar to organized Jewry (just more violent), the answer is no. Most non-Jews in positions of power are
in it for themselves and perhaps their families. Jews in positions of power use that power to benefit their tribe and Israel.
Jews and their useful idiots scream about how "Islamofascists" want to restrict freedom of speech. Pure kosher hypocrisy.)So?
I've noticed this too, and especially the part of holocaust denial banning is disgusting. That doesn't mean I agree or disagree.
It just means that there is a feud between the two cultures and right now the Jewish side has more power. Recall the situation
of the US v. USSR. Similar things have happened.What do you mean, "So"? Do you really think whites shouldn't care if their
rights to speak freely about racial issues are infringed upon?! Especially when other groups will be free to condemn Whitey
and, increasingly, even physically attack him?
Organized Jewry has a long history of using non-whites as a weapon against whites. Again, if you're sincerely doubting all this
and are not merely a Jew yourself, I want to recommend some reading for you to get up to speed:
http://www.martinlutherking.org/ma-chapter18.html
http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/books.htm#articles
The goal is to leave whites completely defenseless: verbally through hate crimes/speech laws, and physically through gun
control. See my post (#3) on this thread for a quote by a Jew who all but states this outright:
The machinations of Big Jewry are subtle in many ways, but there is plenty of evidence for them if you know where to look and
keep your mind open. Believe me, I used to think all the talk about "ZOG" and such was along the lines of hokey UFO
conspiracy garbage, but it really is true.
I cannot possibly present all the evidence that's out there merely by posting on a discussion board. You need to read the
works of MacDonald in particular if you want a well-documented presentation of the subversive crimes of Jewry against the
West.

to the jews collectively, seem to be the actions of a relatively small proportion of the jews in the world. Furthermore, don't most
people in such positions of power have similar schemes?
This is true, however a very disproportionate number of Jews are in power. The Jews are a small population world-wide, so their
"small proportion" actions, are very devastating.
It's obvious that a divided people is a weak people. The Powers That Be understand the importance of unity and have done
everything in their power to create divisions within the White Race.
Since the White Race is the majority, it's imperative that they use divide and conquer tactics against us. United, the White
Race poses a serious threat to their pro-multicultualist ideology; an ideology that is politically and economically driven. Any
sort of unity by the majority along with a shared common denominator would be detrimental to such political and economic
agendas.
The only ones benefitting from racial and cultural diversity, are those with self-serving political and economic agendas. This
includes the continued exploitation of non-Whites. With a little thought, it's not hard to see how racist views are formed by all
parties involved.
I have seen that characteristic before, not in all of the Jewish people I have met, though it is common. But than again, a black
might talk about slavery, and if some catastrophe occurred on white people in the recent past, I'm sure a healthy number of
white people would "mention" it once in a while (generally to non whites). It's human nature to use anything that one can for
gain, such as attention or power. Thats what this is.
The White Race has endured plagues, famine, ethnic discrimination, wars, genocide and slavery. Who helped the White Race
overcome the aforementioned? Who showed compassion for the White Race? Nobody, and I repeat, nobody. The White Race
forged ahead against all odds and went on to accomplish great feats unmatched by all other races combined. That's the
difference between Whites and Blacks. That's the unmitigated truth and fact of the matter.
Did the White Race make excuses and blame others? Did the White Race demand preferential treatment and reparations?
Absolutely not. The White Race wasn't afforded the luxury to place blame and use it as an excuse not to succeed. History is a
testament to that irrefutable and undeniable fact. For those who use the term minority, let it be known that the real minority in
this world has been, and is the White Race.
Not all jews are manipulative, not all arabs blow themselves up in busses, and indeed, many are/do not. I know many white
manipulative people though, though I find most americans to be too lazy to become suicide bombers.
Ah, yes... The Good/Bad argument, fail.
So? I've noticed this too, and especially the part of holocaust denial banning is disgusting. That doesn't mean I agree or
disagree. It just means that there is a feud between the two cultures and right now the Jewish side has more power. Recall the
situation of the US v. USSR. Similar things have happened.
FesterGrumps comic is funny though. And disgustingly true.

Convienently though, no one mentions Stalin's genocide of some 30 Million Christians... and the Jews cry about a false
number of 6 Million.
hickey November 18th, 2007, 08:40 PM

Dodecadhedron are you implying you are a jew?
Charles Owlen Picket November 19th, 2007, 06:43 AM

Do you have a problem with dissent? The only method of intelligent discourse when dealing with political issues is to think
outside the box. To silence such thinking by negative implication is childish. What's more it (his being a Jew) shouldn't even
matter. If you can add something of substance to a conversation; go for it. If not...shut the fuck up and learn. I would love to
have some wet back drop in here and provide insight as to his perspective on illegal immigration.

Someone recently mentioned to me how the initials of your username are C.O.P. ;)
What's your opinion on the state of law enforcement in this country? :p
hickey November 19th, 2007, 08:49 AM

Charles Owlen Picket or I just call you the picketing barnyard owl; I am just suspicious about his reaction( dodecahedron)..
I have no problem if dodecahedron and you are Jews if you can explain your Jewish side why such things are happening which
can only be blamed (partly) on the arrogance of that culture.

Someone recently mentioned to me how the initials of your username are C.O.P. ;)
What's your opinion on the state of law enforcement in this country? :p
Not purposely. The UN actually came from a mistake. There was a Gentleman who fought in Rhodesia; who I consider quite a
hero, & so on....
But that's a damn interesting question as I just found something that would impact (in most powerful way) the discussions
herein.
House Bill 4128 - Criminal Code Modernization and Simplification Act of 2007. If this Bill passes in it's entirety we would all be
facing some serious shit.
Just my opinion; law enforcement is a reflection of the community from which it springs. If one examines Federal Law
Enforcement, the self enriching actions are quite clear. As anyone who remembers the barbarism of Waco could account; they
are self aggrandizing shits. Why does this country even need several "Feed" agencies? It's an issue of historical button
agencies striving to continue to live on. DEA was the old Fed Bu of Narcotics, ATF was the revenuers from the 20's. They're
leeches. But aside from that I would characterize only Fed Gov LE that way as I believe that each community imparts a
different "flavor" to it's agencies. Some are Barny Fife jokes. Some are dangerous & nasty. There is a big difference between
Fed and State in both LE and corrections. However, I think most all LE in this country is over funded. I pay deep taxes for
idiots sleeping under bill-boards. Just like the public schools in this country they are top heavy with administration as well.
When I go to the local "Town Hall" & the ting cost a Hell of a lot, I know someone abused the public troff to make a nice little
home for themselves.
If one were to compare this countries LE agencies to another English speaking country you would see it is quite top heavy. I
basically think that they are inefficient & wasteful. What's your opinion?
I have a copy of House Bill 4128 - that's seriously new shit (2007-11-8) and pretty ugly. I don't like it one bit when speech
becomes a crime.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey "hicky" or dicky or whatever: I'm not even going to deal with the Jew thing: I'm not a fucking jew but calling someone a
jew when they attempt to counter a specific opinion diminishes a discourse. If we all fall in lockstep with an opinion, where is
the discussion? Shutting someone down with a name-calling response is generally considered the mark of the uneducated. I'm
repeating myself from the 1st post now so I'll drop it...
Educated men are as much superior to uneducated men as the living are to the dead.
Aristotle,
hickey November 19th, 2007, 05:29 PM

Your kneejerk reaction to my post invites suspicion about your background and also does not convince me that you are indeed
an educated person, but but just mere a pretender.
The point that diminishes a discourse is when someone ( due to percieved seniority) bullies a newcomer thinking that he can
easily intimidate him to submission.
Well Picketing Barnyard Owl ....sit tight ,as you're in for a surprise.:D:p

OK, OK...I'll back off. Don't get your panties in a bunch. I know when I'm out of my league.... (Wow, that was a close call!)

Someone in this discussion needs to shut-up.
Aristocles November 20th, 2007, 01:59 PM

In my short tenure here, Charles Owlen Picket has exhibited an intellect; and conducts himself in a reasoned and rational
manner.
I would like to throw my opinion as to "the poe-leece", in general.
When I first went to college, law school was the goal. So, I figured, upon entrance, that since thee was no pre-law program, I'd
go for a degree in CRJ with a minor in POLYSCI. Yes, retarded. It did not take log to realize that CRJ Majors were as a group,
idiots. It was composed of niggers and impotent little troglodytes (being a 300 pound national level powerlifter, I could both
see and say this to them). After fleeing this crowd, I discovered a degree in PHI and LOG would serve me well.
The is the crux of what I want o get across: the people becoming officers, to a man (or woman) lacked something. They went
into it with a feeling of impotence. They needed the gun, badge, and "authority" to feel adequate.
Now, it's my belief that once in the job, it goes to the next level. Meaning, they then become little dictators with their own little
fiefdoms.
I understand that, on a local level, they do in ways reflect their community. But it falling steadily away as they all become
infected with the "us verses them" mentality. The cop culture has infected even the locals, it seems. It really follows from my
observations, it's just that on a small, local level many of the cops who do not attend college become inevitably COPS, while in
the department itself.
Perhaps my judgment is colored from so many bad experiences with them. You know, where they hear about your size and
bring half a dozen cars for nothing?
Please do not mistake this post, I am just trying to add, and in no way am I being disrespectful, Charles.
++++++=
Don't quote whole posts. NBK
Dodecahedron November 22nd, 2007, 06:51 PM

This has no importance. But to clarify, I am not a Jew.
No, it's not ALL Jews, just like not all niggers want to "free the Jena Sis!" and so forth. But a large proportion are sympathetic
to their tribe and support the promotion of its agenda...Jews are probably the most ethnocentric people on the planet, with a
seemingly uncountable number of political organizations devoted to promoting their tribal interests
I think this hits the nail on the head. And who can say why this is? You claim that there is an organised Jewish Conspiracy. I do
not completely deny this possibility, but I think it be unlikely. Rather, perhaps it is a function of the culture? Or religion?
(Though, as for claims that it is a genetic issue, I find that highly unlikely)
...as Zionist Jews like Rupert Murdoch own a disproportionate share of these platforms.
You mean bastards like Rupert Murdoch. Pointing out such things is similar to claiming that facts such as "Wendy's' logo
prominently features the colour red, and indeed "Ronald" McDonald wears a red nose, and red striped stockings" provide
subtle evidence for fast food restaurants being controlled by a revived Mao tse Tung.
What do you mean, "So"? Do you really think whites shouldn't care if their rights to speak freely about racial issues are
infringed upon?! Especially when other groups will be free to condemn Whitey and, increasingly, even physically attack him?
I am indeed concerned, but not solely about "Whitey's" right to speaking freely about "racial" issues, but rather for a person's
right to speak freely about any issues in general. After that's dealt with, other groups condemning or attacking "Whitey",
unjustly, should get what's coming to them (i.e. similar to an eye for an eye thinking). By the same token, if "Whitey" attacks,
unjustly, he should get what's coming to him.
As for the post you provided me, several things must be said:
1) I remind you, hypocrisy is a universal human trait
2) Secession is generally fought against by the country being seceeded from.
3) I agree that it is disgusting that such groups as "Black Entertainment Television" exist. But there are two basic things you
can say about it, as in the following scenario: "A man walks into a populated room and announces the news, that a cult has
just massacred a large number of people (think Manson). One person exclaims 'Well we should stop them' and
simultaneously another exclaims 'Why can't we?' [do the same]. "
4) Jews are where this "diversity" rubbish is coming from?! I was under the impression that it was the liberals in general and
hippie philosophy.
5) This Earl Raab sounds like a real bastard. And likely not representative of too many Jews.
6) The other points discussed in the thread.
As for "hate crimes" I don't think I need to say it here of all places, but such a classification boils down to making certain
thoughts illegal; which is frankly nobody's business, no matter what.
The only ones benefitting from racial and cultural diversity, are those with self-serving political and economic agendas. This
includes the continued exploitation of non-Whites. With a little thought, it's not hard to see how racist views are formed by all
parties involved
And, of course, the people who are "included" benefit as well. And your point about "racist views" is well taken.
The White Race forged ahead against all odds and went on to accomplish great feats unmatched by all other races combined.
That's the difference between Whites and Blacks.
If your grandfather became a world champion boxer, led a country from ruin to prosperity, and invented calculus, this means I
should automatically bow down to you? And in fact, the Chinese (or "yeller-niggers") had incredible scientific advances, far
ahead of their time, when Europe was still a cesspool. Then it stagnated and degraded, but chances are we will too. And while
we're at it, the arabs did some fascinating things.
Did the White Race make excuses and blame others? Did the White Race demand preferential treatment and reparations?
Did the "White Race" make excuses and blame others? I dunno... Lucifer, "We are god's pets", Witches, Fate, the neighbors,
and relevant here... foreigners, sound alright? And who could we have complained to, as we were technically the majority...
perhaps, priests, nobles, kings, gods and bartenders?
Convienently though, no one mentions Stalin's genocide of some 30 Million Christians

You just have.
Seems awful lot like a complaint of some sort doesn't it?

~
C.O.P. : "I don't like it one bit when speech becomes a crime." I like it even less when thought already is one.
As for "Hickey", when your three posts in this topic (so far) consist of:
1) Are you Jewish
2) I will call you a silly name while defending myself of above
3) You are merely pretending to be educated and don't "bully" me
Than you make a perfect counterexample to "Whitey's" alleged superiority!
As Charles said, dissenting views are important (to paraphrase). However, actually having a point/substance helps is one of
the criteria.
hickey November 23rd, 2007, 05:35 AM

Bullseye....:p
Surely "(hickeyed or bruised ") one vertices of your Jewish "dodecahedral" ego!:D
LibertyOrDeath November 23rd, 2007, 10:15 AM

I think this hits the nail on the head. And who can say why this is? You claim that there is an organised Jewish Conspiracy. I do
not completely deny this possibility, but I think it be unlikely. Rather, perhaps it is a function of the culture? Or religion?
(Though, as for claims that it is a genetic issue, I find that highly unlikely.)No, I don't claim any large-scale Jewish conspiracy -
- though the Iraq invasion most certainly was the result of a conspiracy by Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, and other Jews associated
with Bush's administration.
What I claim is that the Jewish ethnic group is extremely ethnocentric and therefore is largely (but not completely) unified in
pushing its interests. It's a kind of nationalism more than anything else, but it has effects similar to a conspiracy. This is
completely obvious in light of (1) the sheer number and prominence of Jewish advocacy groups in the United States, AND (2)
the results those groups get. There is a reason why every UN resolution critical of Israel is summarily vetoed by the US, even
when clearly deserved and although every other country votes in favor; it's the same reason why Israel gets more US foreign
aid than any other country, in spite of Israel's relatively high economic status. It's also the reason why Israel's indiscriminate
bombings of civilians in Lebanon in 2006 were called "self-defense" by the White House, but Lebanese and Palestinian attacks
on Israeli soldiers who are occupying land illegally are called "terrorism."
Certainly culture plays a role in Jewish ethnocentricity. The religious traditions of Judaism are part of that culture, but Jews are
not defined by their religion; in fact, a majority of Israelis are not religious, and belief in Judaism is not the criterion on which
Jewish identity or Israeli citizenship is determined (being born to a Jewish mother is).
You mean bastards like Rupert Murdoch. Pointing out such things is similar to claiming that facts such as "Wendy's' logo
prominently features the colour red, and indeed "Ronald" McDonald wears a red nose, and red striped stockings" provide
subtle evidence for fast food restaurants being controlled by a revived Mao tse Tung.No, I mean "Zionist Jews like Rupert
Murdoch." The fact that a Zionist Jew owns Fox News is clearly important to understanding why Fox is so biased toward the
neocon, pro-war point of view. Merely being a bastard does not make one a Zionist.
I am indeed concerned, but not solely about "Whitey's" right to speaking freely about "racial" issues, but rather for a person's
right to speak freely about any issues in general. After that's dealt with, other groups condemning or attacking "Whitey",
unjustly, should get what's coming to them (i.e. similar to an eye for an eye thinking). By the same token, if "Whitey" attacks,
unjustly, he should get what's coming to him.I have no problem with this. My problem is with the fact that whites are the only
group who are not allowed to organize as whites. And Jewish organizations have been pushing for this situation for decades.
I cannot possibly present all the evidence for this by posting on a discussion board. Once again, I refer you to the writings of
Kevin MacDonald.
As for the post you provided me, several things must be said:
1) I remind you, hypocrisy is a universal human traitI'm talking primarily about a certain kind of hypocrisy that's destroying
the West: promoting multiculturalism and "diversity" in Western nations while insisting on the right of Jews to have their own
Jewish state.
2) Secession is generally fought against by the country being seceeded from.Are you referring to Israel here? LOL, I wouldn't
exactly call its founding "secession." It was more like a brutal ethnic cleansing, ideologically rooted in a belief in Jewish
superiority.
3) I agree that it is disgusting that such groups as "Black Entertainment Television" exist. But there are two basic things you
can say about it, as in the following scenario: "A man walks into a populated room and announces the news, that a cult has
just massacred a large number of people (think Manson). One person exclaims 'Well we should stop them' and
simultaneously another exclaims 'Why can't we?' [do the same]. ""Why can't we?" is right. Why can't whites have ANY group or
organization of their own without the ADL labeling it a "hate group"?
4) Jews are where this "diversity" rubbish is coming from?! I was under the impression that it was the liberals in general and
hippie philosophy.Yes, the "diversity is our strength" crap has largely Jewish origins, and modern leftism is an outgrowth of
that. Again, I refer you to Prof. MacDonald.
5) This Earl Raab sounds like a real bastard. And likely not representative of too many Jews.Jews have a long history of
association with leftism. Raab's position most certainly IS representative of organized Jewry. This is easily researched by
anyone who cares to; MacDonald is a good starting point for historical research, as he cites numerous sources (most of them
Jewish). Or if you wish to focus on the present, simply read plenty of Jewish online publications and read their take on things.
Example:
http://www.ocjewishlife.com/stories/xarchive.php?id=170
Ours is ju st one of 30 ADL region al offices, an d a mod est on e at that, but we ve been the flashpoin t for civil rights issues
nationwid e. We v e b e e n o n the fore front of confronting such iss ues as anti-immigration, anti-Zionist/anti-Israel issues on
college campuses , and Holocaust denial, because they re ha ppening here.
T h e r e s a connection betwee n anti-Semitism an d other hate crim es, explaine d Joyce Gree n s p a n , who wa s the executive
director of the ADL Orange County/Long Beach office for 12 years before retiring this summer and who is being honored at
the g ala. Its the canary in the coal mine. Be hind a nti-Semitis m there are othe r kinds of ha te. Its a red flag for un dersta nding
the b roader p icture.
ADL Highlights
1981- ADL Model Hate Crime Legislation
1 9 8 3 - National Anti-Defam ation League Day declared by President Ronald Rea gan
1985- A World of Difference Institute established to fight against prejudice and promote diversity
1987- Shaare Tefila Congregation v. Cobb hate crime Supreme Court case: Supreme Court ruling that Jews are under the
protection of the hate crime statute
...
There are some issues on which Organized Jewry isn't monolithic, but even when this is the case, the point of disagreement
generally revolves around what's good for the Jews:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A23511-2002Dec21?language=printer
So Organized Jewry can be thought of as a nation-within-a-nation, constantly pushing for their own interests and loyal primarily
to themselves and to Israel. Of course no Jew is ever likely to admit this outright, but Jewish words often betray their agenda,
as in the quotes above. Of course the Jews will always object, "That's just one Jew speaking!" but actions speak louder than
words. We have no other basis on which to draw conclusions.
Asriel November 26th, 2007, 12:41 AM

I haven't seen the PowerPoint presentation referred to by the Judenfilth in the following linked document, but I understand it
juxtaposes the web site of "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" against alleged "Taliban recruitment websites".
http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=3577145
I guess anybody who wonders aloud why we cannot see what was on the photos/video made by the 5 "dancing Jews" in Liberty
Park on 9/11, for example, or who wonders what made WTC7 collapse, or who wonders why the investigation into the anthrax
attacks was stonewalled, is to be deemed a "homegrown terrorist"?
On the bright side, the major role of organized Jewry in the downfall of the U.S. is now plain to see. As more and more people
wake up to realize what's happening to our country, the Jews seem to be showing some signs of desperation as they try to
micromanage everything, to the point of absurdity; revealing their hand as never before.
Dude, "organized jewery" trying to bring "the downfall of america" are you on drugs or are you so deluded into thinking that
there are such ridiculous conspiricies as that. Well what now? The evil communists are trying to impurify our precious bodily
fluids? Come on, get real.
Aristocles November 26th, 2007, 01:07 AM

Dude, "organized jewery" trying to bring "the downfall of america" are you on drugs or are you so deluded into thinking that
there are such ridiculous conspiricies as that. Well what now? The evil communists are trying to impurify our precious bodily
fluids? Come on, get real.
Well, that's it, I am convinced! The power of your argument is overwhelming...
You convinced me with the "are you on drugs" and the oldie but goodie "impurify" arguments, those are real deal closers of
logical argumentation. Keep up the arcane references to Kubric movies, those are real winners, here! :D
Cheers to Brig. Gen. Jack D. Ripper: "I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination,
Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."
:rolleyes:
Ever notice browbeating sarcasm seems to portend lack of rational argument?

Asriel,
You are almost certainly a Jew yourself, judging by your post above and by this one:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=97847&postcount=90
Heck, your username is even an anagram of "Israel." Thus, it stands to reason that you'll defend your tribe against all
accusations.
However, in keeping with what Charles said earlier, I personally don't believe in shouting down dissenters -- unlike Jews who
have gotten debate over the Holocaust outlawed in several European countries, or who summarily ban dissenting voices from
neocon boards (Little Green Footballs, Hannity's board, etc.), and who are pushing for "hate speech" laws in the US and
elsewhere. I don't need to sink to the level of Organized Jewry, because the truth is on my side.
So, if you can use reasoned argument to rebut any of the many points made against Organized Jewry in this thread, please
go ahead and do so. But simply screaming, "YOU'RE CRAZY!" or "YOU'RE ON DRUGS!" isn't likely to cut it here. Please read
the whole thread, make your counterarguments, and we can take it from there.

There are two kinds of people that defend Jews and anything to do with Jews.
1. Jews
2. Sheep
No sane human being would deny ZOG.
Krav Maga was developed in Czechoslovakia and Hungary by Imi Lichtenfeld. Technically, it wasn't developed by Israelis ;)
Since Israel wasn't around then.
But, Liberty, you must understand without their childish character assassinations and insult they wouldn't have an argument! :D
Asriel November 26th, 2007, 05:01 PM

Hey guess what,
1. I'm not trying to debate you, because I know I'm not going to change your mind, you're far to embedded in your own
make-believe world for anything I say to change your mind, so that is why I'm not wasting my energy trying to debate you,
hence me just having fun with random Kubrick references.
2. The anagram is actually coincidental, I chose it because it's the name of a character in a book series I enjoy.
3. LOD, you can talk all you want about your little conspiracy theories, but the truth isn't on your side, and I know I'm not
going to convince you of the idiocy of your conspiracy theories, so I'm not going to bother.
4. I never knew the neo-nazi movement seemed to have such a strong following on this board, anyway I certainly found that
out quick.
Aristocles November 26th, 2007, 05:47 PM

I am curious. Do you mean to imply that anyone who makes observations about Jewish influence in America is by definition a
neo-nazi? Or just certain ones?
Would you say that the book, "Stealth Pacs: Lobbying Congress for Control of U.S. Middle East Policy" or maybe "The Israel
Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy" were written by neo-nazi, livers in a "make-believe world", idiot conspiracy theorists?
From my short experience here, it appears that sarcasm and sniping gets you no where. I'd stick to logical argumentation, as
LOD advised, or I just would not comment.
Hell, it may be another year before I even consider posting in a Chemistry proper, forum.

http://www.natvan.com/free-speech/fs9910c.html
So, Jews are great people, huh? This doesn't happen to "good people" (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/
HistoryJewishPersecution.htm)
http://judicial-inc.biz/1_master_supreme.htm
http://www.white-nationalist.info/primer/
It's clear Asriel is either a Jew or a Sheep. It's also clear that all this person can is claim that organized Jewery doesn't exist,
but this person can provide no irrefutable facts to back up this claim. Sorry to bust your bubble kid, but the truth is on our side
and your lies will crumble.
You're either going to address everything presented, and provide evidence to support yourself or cease with your trolling.
BTW: Learn a new buzz phrase other than "Neo-Nazi" Surely you, master of all knowledge who "knows" but can't prove
organized Jewery doesn't exist is creative enough to muster up something more interesting.
P.S.
"This system is totally in control of the American-Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States. It is clear that the
American people are themselves the slaves of the Jews and are forced to live according to the principles and laws laid by
them. So, the punishment should reach Israel. In fact, it is Israel, which is giving a blood bath to innocent Muslims and the
U.S. is not uttering a single word." Bin Laden said that in the 2001 video denying involvement in the WTC incident.
"We say to the Americans as people and to American mothers, if they cherish their lives and if they cherish their sons, they
must elect an American patriotic government that caters to their interests, not the interests of the Jews." Bin Laden said this in
1998.
"There is a great danger for the United States of America. That great danger is the Jew. Gentlemen , in whichever land the
Jews have settled, they have depressed the moral level and lowered the degree of commercial honesty. They have created a
State within a State, and when they are opposed, they attempted to strangle the nation financially as in the case of Portugal
and Spain." Benjamin Franklin
"If they are not excluded from the United States by the Constitution, within less than a hundred years they will stream into our
country in such numbers that they will rule and destroy us, and change our form of government for which Americans have shed
their blood and sacrificed life, property and personal freedom. If the Jews are not excluded, within 200 years our children will
be working in the fields to feed the Jews, while they remain in the Counting House gleefully rubbing their hands." Benjamin
Franklin
"I warn you, gentlemen, if you do not exclude the Jew forever, your children`s children will curse you in your grave." Benjamin
Franklin
1787, at The Constitutional Convention, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

1. No I do not mean to infer that anyone who makes these ridiculous and frankly libelous claims are neo-nazis, but the fact
that many of the people on this forum I've seen talk about how great the aryan race is, it's not exactly a huge leap of logic.
2. So you're saying that because bad things have happened to the jews then that means they are bad people, disregarding
the fact that unrightful discrimination exists in the world, what you're saying is that because a woman is raped 3 times she
deserves it? That makes no sense whatsoever.
3. I'm sorry to be bursting your bubble but you haven't produced any real proof I looked at those sights and it is a mixture of
hate-filled rhetoric and unfounded conjecture, and as you are the one making the affirmative claim, that there is some sort of
massive jewish conspiricy, the burden of proof lies with you, not me.
4. Ok, sorry but quotes by psychotic islamic extremists are not exactly a credible source.
5. Ah, so benjamin franklin, a man who lived hundreds of years ago in a backwards society that encouraged slavery, sexism,
and genocide (the native americans), is suddenly infallible, sorry, but it's going to take more than the opinion of an dead old
man to actually qualify as an argument.
6. P.S. Kaydon, actually read that whole site about what has happened to the jews, you might just learn a thing or two.

Your comprehension skills are lacking.
You were specifically told to go back and address previous rebuttals before responding. The fact that you refused to do so,
clearly shows that your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. If it had, then you would have had no trouble refuting every
point outlined in rebuttals to your posts. You failed to do so despite being asked.
You're through trying to manipulate and control this debate with your "selective interpretation." You've been proven wrong on
every count.
1. No I do not mean to infer that anyone who makes these ridiculous and frankly libelous claims are neo-nazis, but the fact
that many of the people on this forum I've seen talk about how great the aryan race is, it's not exactly a huge leap of logic.
There are a few who idolize Hitler, but there are many who don't. I think the whole Nazi Germany/Hitler thing has to do with
there being some ideological overlap between Nazism and White Nationalism with regard to race and nation.
Nazi imagery hurts the White Nationalist cause because of the stigma attached to Nazi Germany. I've also been a critic of the
use of Nazi imagery when promoting White Nationalism for that very reason, among other reasons. On the other hand, I
believe in freedom of speech and abhor political correctness.
Be that as it may, I don't believe that the use of Nazi imagery should deter those who are interested in White Nationalism.
Like with any cause, White Nationalism has it's more extreme elements. The core message of White Nationalism is what
matters.
Regardless of what I see as being negative, counterproductive and even harmful, I remain committed to the White Nationalist
cause. Our race, nations and cultures are under assault. We cannot let ideological disagreements interfere with what serves
the common good of our race and nations.
I don't think there is any standard by which people have to justify their pride in something. For example, my mom is proud of
her plants. Personally, I think having pride in plants is stupid, but since that makes her feel good, I'd never say anything
negative to her.
As far as race and nation is concerned, I think pride is a healthy thing. People who have no pride in such things are apathetic
and complacent. That, of course, can have nothing but negative consequences.
Think of your race and nation as being extensions of your family and home. Most of us have pride in our families and homes.
Why not have pride in our race and nations?
Even if nationalism didn't exist, people would segregate based on race, culture and religion. Those are all common
denominators. People are tribal and territorial by nature. I see nationalism as reflecting our tribal instincts.
2. So you're saying that because bad things have happened to the jews then that means they are bad people, disregarding
the fact that unrightful discrimination exists in the world, what you're saying is that because a woman is raped 3 times she
deserves it? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Right..... It's just some unfortunate coincidence that nations throught all of history have hated the Jew and ousted them? Are
you going to parrot the same reverberated garbage?
3. I'm sorry to be bursting your bubble but you haven't produced any real proof I looked at those sights and it is a mixture of
hate-filled rhetoric and unfounded conjecture, and as you are the one making the affirmative claim, that there is some sort of
massive jewish conspiricy, the burden of proof lies with you, not me.
War Launched to Protect Israel - Bush Adviser
WASHINGTON, Mar 29 (IPS) - IPS uncovered the remarks by Philip Zelikow, who is now the executive director of the body set
up to investigate the terrorist attacks on the United States in September 2001 -- the 9/11 commission -- in which he suggests
a prime motive for the invasion just over one year ago was to eliminate a threat to Israel, a staunch U.S. ally in the Middle
East.
Zelikow's casting of the attack on Iraq as one launched to protect Israel appears at odds with the public position of President
George W. Bush and his administration, which has never overtly drawn the link between its war on the regime of former
president Hussein and its concern for Israel's security.
{snip}
Zelikow made his statements about the u nstate d threat during his tenu re on a highly knowledge able a nd well-connected
body known as the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (PFIAB), which reports directly to the president.
He served on the board between 2001 and 2003.
Why would Iraq atta ck America or use nuclear weapon s against us? I'll te ll you what I think the real threat (is) and actually
has been since 1990 -- it's the threat against Israel, Zelikow told a cro wd at the University of Virginia on Sep. 10, 2002 ,
speaking on a panel of foreign policy experts assessing the impact of 9/11 and the future of the war on the al-Qaeda terrorist
organisation.
And this is the threat that dare not speak its nam e, because the Europeans do n't care deeply about that threat, I will tell yo u
frank ly. And the American government d oesn't want to lean too hard on it rhetorica lly, becaus e it is no t a popu lar sell, sa id
Zelikow.
The statements are the first to surface from a source closely linked to the Bush administration acknowledging that the war,
which has so far cost the lives of nearly 600 U.S. troops and thousands of Iraqis, was motivated by Washington's desire to
defend the Jewish state.
The administration, which is surrounded by staunch pro-Israel, neo-conservative hawks, is currently fighting an extensive
campaign to ward off accusatio ns tha t it derailed the war o n terrorism it launched after 9/11 by taking a detour
{snip}
Even though members of the 16-person PFIAB come from outside government, they enjoy the confidence of the president and
have access to all information related to foreign intelligence that they need to play their vital advisory role.
Known in intelligence circles as Piffy-ab , the board is supposed to evaluate the na tion's intelligence agencies and probe any
mistakes they make.
T h e u n p a i d appointees on the b oard req uire a security clearance known as code word that is higher than top secret.
SOURCE: Interpress Service News Agency - Mar 29, 2004 http://ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=23083
Interestingly enough Richard Perle and Douglas Feith participated in a 2000 project report on securing Israeli interests! It is
widely known as "A Clean Break:A New Strategy for Securing the Realm." On chilling statement from that report reads:
"Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even
rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq an importa nt Israeli s trategic
objective in its own right as a mean s of fo iling Syria s regiona l ambitions." http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm
On a side note General Tommy Franks himself conceded that defending Israeli security was at least one reason for the war....
General Tommy Franks: Threat on Israel "Justified" Pre-Emption
The threat of a missile attack on Israel was one reason justifying a pre-emptive strike against Iraq, Gen. Tommy Franks said.
Franks, who retired from the U.S. military last year after leading the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, said he supported the Bush
administration policy of pre-emption. "The reason we could not afford to give up time is because we wanted the water
infrastructure to remain in place," Franks said Monday at the National Press Club. "We wanted the oil infrastructure in Iraq to
remain in place. We did not want to subject ourselves and Israel to the potential consequence of a long-range missile being
fired into Tel Aviv or Jerusalem." Franks also said Israel's conflict with the Palestinians fuels anti-U.S. resentment in the Middle
East.
SOURCE: 'Cleveland Jewish News' - Quoting the 'Jewish Telegraph Agency' - August 10th, 2004
To make matters even more interesting the popular Israeli newspaper Haaretz even pointed out in an article how the
architects of the war were 25 mainly-Jewish neoconservatives:
White Man's Burden
"The war in Iraq was conceived by 25 neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish, who are pushing President Bush to
change the course of history."
{snip}
In the course of the past year, a new belief has emerged in the town: the belief in war against Iraq. That ardent faith was
disseminated by a small group of 25 or 30 neoconservatives, almost all of them Jewish, almost all of them intellectuals (a
partial list: Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Eliot Abrams, Charles Krauthammer),
SOURCE: Haaretz - By: Ari Shavit
You will notice that names Richard Perle and Douglas Feith are on the list included in the Haaretz article? These are the same
two that participated in the above mentioned study on securing the Israeli realm which placed an emphasize on the removal of
Saddam Hussein from power. Interesting don't you think?
Another interesting little fact is Israeli was behind much of the faulty evidence used to justify this war to the people of America!
In fact they were described as a 'full partner' in these intelligence 'failures!' Interesting little fact no?
Israel linked to Iraq intelligence failure, general says
Israel was a "full partner" in American and British intelligence failures that exaggerated former president Saddam Hussein's
nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs before the US-led invasion of Iraq, a report by an Israeli military research
centre has alleged.
"The failures of this war indicate weaknesses and inherent flaws within Israeli intelligence and among Israeli decision-makers,"
Brigadier-General Shlomo Brom wrote in an analysis for Tel Aviv University's Jaffee Centre for Strategic Studies.
Israeli intelligence services and political leaders provided "an exaggerated assessment of Iraqi capabilities", raising "the
possibility that the intelligence picture was manipulated", wrote General Brom, former deputy commander of the Israeli
military's planning division.
SOURCE: The Age - By Molly Moore; Jerusalem - December 6, 2003
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=695495&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1
http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/%24File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf
4. Ok, sorry but quotes by psychotic islamic extremists are not exactly a credible source.
At least I can provide a source for my information ;)
5. Ah, so benjamin franklin, a man who lived hundreds of years ago in a backwards society that encouraged slavery, sexism,
and genocide (the native americans), is suddenly infallible, sorry, but it's going to take more than the opinion of an dead old
man to actually qualify as an argument.
That was then, this is now. Moreover, the vast majority of whites played no part in the injustices that you make reference to.
I'm by no means trying to downplay the wrongs of the past committed by the white race. However, it seems that your logic
dictates that one wrong somehow justifies more wrongs. Am I correct in that assumption? Please answer the question.
If you're implying that the entire white race should be held accountable for the nefarious actions of a small minority of whites
throughout the course of history, then I'll buy your whole argument.
If that is your argument, that tells me that you view multiculturalism or racial diversity as vengeance against the white race. Is
that what you're saying? Please answer the question.
If that is in fact what you're saying, then you shouldn't have any problem whatsoever if we hold Blacks, Jews and Mexicans
accountable for actions of a small minority within their respective races, correct?
The fact you bring up irrelevant issues shows you have nothing to offer.
6. P.S. Kaydon, actually read that whole site about what has happened to the jews, you might just learn a thing or two.
Learn something? Laughable, at best.
That said, and as already outlined -- you lose.
You were given ample opportunity to debate like an adult. You failed. Everything has been outlined repeatedly in great detail.
You may continue wasting your time if you like, but I'm through wasting my time on you. Good day.
Asriel November 27th, 2007, 12:18 AM

It appears that all of my attempts at making a logical debate with this backwards skinhead have failed, it was evident from
the begining you weren't going to debate me, your were just going to pretend to read what I wrote and throw your memorized
rhetoric at me. Frankly, it seems to me the only sheeple at those of the white supremacist movement, who flock together to
escape their fear of anything that is different from them and who go along with their movement with a blind faith seen only in
christian fundamentalists and sheep. You're arguments are ridiculous, based off of nothing at all, the very idea the iraq war
was launched to protect israel is laughable in itself, and that being part of a great conspiracy even moreso, you simply see
what you're own hate-filled, ignorant, bigoted heart wants you to see, and that is apparently all there is to it. But one last
thing, it also amuses me that white supremacists are so pitiful in themselves that the only thing they seem to take pride in is
something they were born as, from the white supremacists I've seen, it's pretty evident why this is, as they haven't
accomplished anything actually worth being proud about. Get off your ass and stop being proud about who you are and be
proud about what you do!
jpsmith123 November 27th, 2007, 12:20 PM

Dude, "organized jewery" trying to bring "the downfall of america"
If you're going to attempt to quote me, chumpy, at least do everyone a favor and either copy and paste, or learn how to spell.
are you on drugs or are you so deluded into thinking that there are such ridiculous conspiricies as that.
Oh how silly of me; sorry, Shitstein, I forgot that only Jews get to formulate conspiracy theories, e.g., Germany built gas
chambers and exterminated 6 million Jews...LOL!
Well what now?
I suppose you can just go back to painting swastikas on your door, or torturing small animals, or fantasizing about killing
Arabs, or whatever it is you perverse Judenfilth do when you're not spreading your hatred and your lies over the internet.
Defendu November 27th, 2007, 02:50 PM

It appears that all of my attempts at making a logical debate with this backwards skinhead have failed, it was evident from
the begining you weren't going to debate me, your were just going to pretend to read what I wrote and throw your memorized
rhetoric at me...
That must have been a lot of work putting together such a huge moralistic rant/flame together without backing up any of your
statements made in this thread, or addressing the evidence posted that contradicts everything you say.
...or whatever it is you perverse Judenfilth do when you're not spreading your hatred and your lies over the internet.
In Orthodox Jewish circumcisions, the man who performs the ceremony 1) cuts the baby's foreskin with a knife (milah), 2) rips
the membrane with his fingernail (peri'ah), and 3) applies his mouth to the baby's bleeding penis and sucks blood from the
wound (mezizah). These procerdures are laid down by Jewish law. What are the risks of infectious disease for the baby, the
man who circumcises the baby, and to society at large?
Source: http://193.231.8.217/Child-Health/Circumcision.html

JPsmith, frankly thank you, your post made me laugh that there are such crazy skinheads as yourself. Seriously you guys are
funny to read, I frankly have never seen such hatred and bile spewing over an internet forum like this outside of emo drama.
So you can go back to sucking off a goat or masturbating to the protocols of the elders of zion or whatever it is skinheads do.

I shouldn't even post this, but I feel compelled to. I know you're a troll, and I'm surely feeding the fire, but this will indeed be
the last time I post in response to you anywhere in this forum. Your stay here will soon be ended, anyhow.
See you cannot start a war on wrongful grounds, and then try to conveniently forget that you have started it! That may seem
to make sense to you, but you know that that has been where you have gone awry. Whether you will admit this serves no
meaning to me; however, you nonetheless know it! People sometimes term or characterize your actions as puerility or
childishness. Indeed, it is highly immature, even insecure, to start a war that you cannot finish!
In conclusion, you "arguments" are merely eristic.
You call us racists. You call us supremacists. You call us ignorant, and bigoted, and hateful. What you call racism, we call truth.
What you call ignorance, we call enlightenment. When you insult us, we laugh in return. Do you know why? Because we stand
here mighty and united, watching you dig and then bury yourselves in your own graves. We are not racists, or bigots, or
haters. We are brothers, sisters, friends, and comrades. We are The WHITE RACE, the family you've betrayed and one day,
you will answer for your treachery.
The_Duke November 28th, 2007, 12:06 AM

Mega has given Asriel 7 days to think about what he posts next before he is allowed to post again.
Now lets get back to the discussion with less flamming. If you can't post a decent opinion or some facts that can be backed up
without flamming then don't bother posting at all.
Better yet, this is a science forum, go post about science... :p
UnderConstruction December 3rd, 2007, 07:27 PM

This topic really has no place anywhere in this forum, just because the subject is "Issues and Opinions" doesn't change
anything--especially when Issues and Opinions is found in the "Science and Information" Section. Some people may consider
several of the various opposing ideas found in this thread as information, though I have seen little more than a wide and
varied form of discriminative propaganda.
If you think that white people are the only ones worth a damn, fine.
If you think that Jews are conspiratorial and wicked people, fine.
If you think that Muslims are inherently destructive and hateful people, fine.
Its your right to d o so, but the logic is im paired .
But since The_Duke recommended that an opinion without flaming is due, heres mine:
Nobody is born with evil intent, no genetic makeup, "tainted" blood, born-into religion, or anything else drives an infant into
growing up a moral atrocity.
That is where discrimination of any kind falls apart.
"approximately 90-95% of known societies engaged in at least occasional warfare, and many fought constantly."
--http://www.troynovant.com/Franson/Keeley/War-Before-Civilization.html
Clearly, one of two things can be drawn from this: the drive to war with others is not a result of genetics or religion, or else all
genetic or religious influence drives a person to war. The fact that Atheists and Agnostics are not inherently peaceful partially
negates the latter argument.
The Quran, the Torah, and the Bible are all very similar texts--clearly due to the fact that they all stem from Judaism, they
also share the "God of Abraham" as their single, all-powerful God. This may suggest that this text (to be regarded as a single
unit) is in itself an inspiration for violence (Historically, an enormous percent of known wars are religious and fought bu Judo-
Christian religions).
A few things can be taken out of this, several of them hold little relevance at present, but it should be observed that, though
these three religions are often disapproving of one-another, they are essentially the same religion in all but the most
ritualistic of senses.
War was mentioned previously because it is often started as a result of discrimination (that and politics). When you consider
the many forms of discrimination (adultism, ageism, sexism, lookism, ableism, classicm, heightism, racism , and
anthropocentrism are the most notable ones I found, and with the exception of heightism all of them have been encouraged
by the Christian Bible) it becomes apparent that there are more reasons to hate somebody than there are to approve of
them; anyone not completely jaded by detrimental society, however, will acknowledge that a majority figure does not make
something any the better or more accurate.
This was taken from a very obnoxious and much disliked (on my part) website
"Was your distant grand-daddy a gorilla? Sadly, some people would like for you to be believe so. There is not one shred of
proof of evolution, only unproven theories and speculation." The website's various listed topics are as follows:
Basics | King James Bible | 666 | Bible Study | Dead Churches | Public Schools are Evil | Soulwinning | Alcohol Kills | Feminism
| Money | War on Drugs Scam | Hellivision
I mention this only to highlight the diversity of anti-diversity, because (as should be obvious) this site is very pro-Christian.
What is ironic about it is that the homepage ends with an article titled This Site is NOT a Hate Site!. The site very obviously is
filled with hate, but for the curious the URL is Jesus-Is-Savior.com.
I know that I haven t fully e xplore d the realm of discrimination an d that, a s per the nature of humanity, it wouldn t m a k e a n y
difference if I had--but there it is.
Defendu December 3rd, 2007, 07:58 PM

Nobody is born with evil intent, no genetic makeup, "tainted" blood, born-into religion, or anything else drives an infant into
growing up a moral atrocity.
Now you should at least show a post where someone provided idiotic moral dichotomies instead of verifiable facts to back up
their assertions that races vary in ability and behavior, lest you be perceived as an Artful Dodger (http://redwing.hutman.net/
~mreed/warriorshtm/artfuldodger.htm).
Kaydon December 3rd, 2007, 08:13 PM

Nobody is born evil? Plausible, but you can't prove that. Moreover, regardless whether they are or are not, they are, as adults -
evil. You can not excuse their actions, the 'exceptions' game will not be played. There is no proof though, that everyone is
born equally innocent, there are no facts to support this nor disprove this. The argument is silly, at best.
UnderConstruction December 4th, 2007, 12:25 AM

Since both Defendu and Kaydon make the same argument I don't think that quotation is necessary, except I can safely say
that they are both wrong.
Though I cannot "definitively say" that everyone is born innocent (in the same sense that one cannot definitively prove
evolution, as there will always be those too indulged into their faith to accept it), many scientists have studied infants
incessantly--to the point of immorality--to map out their psychiatry.
Back in the '50's everybody thought that children were like clay to be shaped into whatever the parents encouraged, this
eventually was observed to be (fairly plainly) false--but it also progressed into a whole new realm of psychiatry.
A primitive theory was introduced that categorized cognitive development into four stages. The theory fell apart and was
replaced by something known as the Ecological System Theory (revolving around Nature vs. Nurture, which is essentially what
we're debating now). This latter theory centers around the belief that external influences--specifically the most proximate
human influences--are the largest contributors to a child's non-physical growth.
Also, since this thread mentions "racial cleansing" to some degree, that should be brought up as well. When you breed dogs
through artificial selection you work with a small group of animals and continually inbreed them until you reach either your
desired traits or some form of (generally horrific) failure (toy dogs come to mind here). Additionally, the desired traits in dogs
are almost always physical. If you wanted to inbreed humans you would be dealing with approximately six-and-a-half billion
people (not bearing in mind that populative growth is exponential) and the desired traits would be primarily mental. There is
no reasonable evidence to suggest that intelligence, or other positive mental traits, is hereditary. Many here obviously
disagree, so consider this:
1. all humans share common ancestors
2. ancient social development throughout societies was due to chance and need, rather than inherent skill
3. Modern societal behavior is the consequence of tradition, and varies throughout cultures.
It is for those three reasons that...
Jews in the Middle-East possess different cultures than those in the US.
Africans and African-Americans differ widely in tradition and culture.
Italians and Italian-Americans are very culturally different.
Et cetera.
It should also be mentioned that an anti-semitic white-supremacy is oxymoronic, though it's incredible that such a thing
should ever warrant being said.
Big Mac December 6th, 2007, 10:15 PM

Leave it to a Jew to try and stifle free-speech. Jews are Jews no matter where those rats are found. They spread their
infectious disease of "tolerance" around. Their "tolerance" garbage is really a technique of making the white man appear
inferior to blacks and other.....people. Jews have ruined America to increase Israel's iron grip on their patch of land in the
Middle East. If we simply just ousted the Jews of this country (what a glorious day that would be) and stopped supporting
Israel, we'd be a lot better off.
Charles Owlen Picket December 7th, 2007, 10:33 AM

If anyone has an interest in reading (Prof. Kevin) MacDonald's material, I uploaded it to the FTP. ...Not a lot of stuff, just
some joiner pieces from a discussion on Anti-Antisemitism and rejoinders.
Goblin$ January 21st, 2008, 04:02 AM

I really didn't want to post anything on this thread, as it truly is a disgrace to a site allegedly dedicated to knowledge, not
idiocy and millennia old hate rhetoric, however a few things wouldn't let me ignore this blight on the site. Firstly, racism is
based on race not religion for fucks sake, a Caucasian Muslim's race is Caucasian, not Muslim, his religion is Islam, not his
bloody race, and if you really are thinking, "man this guy is an idiot... no one said anything about Caucasian Muslims," read it
once more, but interchange Muslim with Jew; in multiple posts I saw Jews being compared against "whites", all the Jewish
people I know are "white". This bothered me right off the bat as how can you take a "scientific" site catering to chemistry
related pursuits seriously, when fundamental scientific concepts are completely ignored. If you think the study of physiological
differences between Homo sapiens originating in different climates doesn't involve chemistry, I strongly suggest you shoot
yourself in the head, multiple times, preferably with a 12 gauge shotgun, I call it "pulling a Cobain", as your worthless genes
are contaminating an already overflowing cesspool.
Racism is a legitimate retardation; would you refuse a life-saving transplant from whatever race you dislike simply because
they are that race? I strongly doubt it and if you say you would, I'd bet my life that you're lying. North Americans aren't hard
people, most would agree the hardest are soldiers, the majority of criminals aren't hard, lol our jails aren't Colombian hell
holes, they lack discipline or they most likely wouldn't be in jail and the vast majority are drug addicts, yet how many of our
soldiers would commit Seppuku or Hara-Kiri rather than face the shame of capture by the enemies hand? LOL. I can't imagine
a single one disemboweling themselves, I can imagine Spec-ops or mercenaries shooting themselves instead of the torture
they know they'd face, but thats to prevent pain not to inflict it as punishment for failure, no, it's much easier to imagine them
at home when their tour of duty is over, playing Playstation, or enjoying time with their families. I respect our soldiers
immensely, the war for oil not at all, so don't even imply I don't. However, this was a common practice for officers and even
soldiers facing defeat in Japan even 100 years ago , with numerous soldiers and civilians doing so rather than surrendering
after losing WW2. If you can not respect the hardness of a culture that teaches extremely painful death is better than
dishonor something is wrong with you.
Now about the "rag-heads" as many idiots have referred to them. Firstly if you live in a desert you get heat stroke very quickly
if you don't cover yourself, secondly the toughness of these "rag-heads" is incomprehensible to the common, obese fuck at
McDonalds getting his double cheese burger and fries. Our soldiers have an exceedingly small chance of dying in Iraq or
Afghanistan, the "rag-heads" have an exceedingly small chance of surviving. Not only that, but if someone invaded your
country and had 40 thousand mercenaries roaming around with NO LAWS, no military, no criminal and no Iraqi/Afghan laws
applicable to them shooting whatever they want, even going outside would be kind of crazy. We have superior weaponry,
communications, nice tents with air conditioning, computers with internet at the big bases, good food in abundant supply,
including all the garbage fast-food chains, but most importantly, we have air support. They have AK's, RPG's, cell-phones and
bombs that can be made from information on this site, can you imagine trying to fight a M2 Bradley IFV with the stuff on this
site, thats a sobering thought. For every one of our casualties, they suffer scores, yet they don't give up, they want the
invading nation out of their land. Would we do the same? I honestly can not see it happening, there is no real hardness in us,
we aren't conscripted as children into armies and forced to kill, rape and mutilate entire villages like thousands of African
children. We don't live in tin-shacks, starving, with no heat, deathly ill and seething with rage everyday, directed towards the
people living in the mansions like tens of millions all over the world. Look what happened in Kenya when the elections were
thought to have been shady, violent riots leaving at least a 100 dead. What happened when it's acknowledged by many that
our president didn't win the election and stole it? Absolutely nothing lol, it became a fucking joke... pathetic. So if you aren't a
completely closed minded bigot you'll see that they are many things to be admired about in other cultures, even if it's just a
grudging respect of their fighting resolve and inherent toughness.
The entire premise of the thread is hilarious, with the U.S. about to pass the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism
Prevention Act of 2007, which could legally make even posting anti-government comments a crime, along with a myriad other
acts that THEY have the power to define, read the act if you don't believe me. http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?
bill=h110-1955 Last time I checked Fuck-head and co. were right-wing Christian zealots from the south, not Jews from Israel. I
also saw something about the Jewish people being accused of moaning about a certain atrocious event. Hmmmmm, give me
a second here to think. This sounds a mite like Americans and a certain false-flag operation, with the exclusion of roughly 5
997 250 lives, years of slave labor in atrocious conditions at concentration camps across the continent and oooohhhh lets see,
numerous laws passed that undermine and are beginning to threaten to completely take away our civil liberties... that sounds
about right. How did Hitler whip the German nation into such a fervor? Jew bashing, an age old tradition... "Why is our
economy in shambles? The JEWS!" Not the spanking they received in WW1 and resulting economic collapse because of the
harsh penalties imposed upon the nation, of course. Judging by this 'enlightened individual's' view, "If we simply just ousted
the Jews [from] this country (what a glorious day that would be) and stopped supporting Israel, we'd be a lot better off.[ I
wonder what his views on homosexuals and retards are? I suspect quite similar to the Fhrer's.]", Bush just needs to start
talking smack about the Jew's and we're set to go. Homosexuality already is illegal in most states so it'll be easy enough to
make an imprisonable offense. Is it really any surprise we're adopting Nazi-like laws with views like these in the country?
For any of the people who think the holocaust didn't happen make a doctor's appointment, I think you may be
developmentally disabled, after you discover you are a certified retard, watch Alfred Hitchcock edited footage of Allied armies
as they entered the camps for the first time. Truly the most shocking and "real" images ever to be put on any medium.
Remember there were dozens of camps over the continent, not all as massive as Auschwitz and T.II, but still very large and
not all for Jewish people.
-- The movie -- http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/camp/view/ --
Lastly my personal views. I don't want to make it long because I've wallowed in the filth long enough. A tiger is a tiger, if the
bastards blue and green striped it's still a tiger and will try and eat you. I apply the exact same concept to an ape, black ape,
blue ape, old ape, new ape... minus the eating part of course... unless in the deep Amazon, Congo, or Papua New Guinea
jungles:) Religion is a crock of shit that has been used to govern apes since time immemorial, the pharaoh of Egypt WAS
GOD, imagine that. Your word is the be all and end all, any surprise the civilization lasted nearly 3000 years? God itself was
the ruler... lol. After that we had god directly talking to someone, the pope was god's chosen vassal and through-out the
middle ages the church was the true power, the church was greater than the state back then. Odd as I'm pretty sure the
schizophrenic Jesus, who sure as fuck wasn't Caucasian and blue-eyed if he was real, said he was the only way to god, to
refrain from violence and that wealth was bad... might have gotten that wrong though my memory is poor ;) The idea amuses
me for the question that arises is, when did the "soul" come to inhabit the Homo sapien? When it changed over tens of
thousands of years from Neanderthal man? Cro-Magnon man? The first change from the monkey that ran from the Wooly
Mammoths into Homo erectus? The idea is so ridiculous it's offensive, and I'm amazed that people bought it for so long and
that so many still do. I don't think any Homo sapien has any more value than any other creature, we have no souls, they have
no souls, we just got thumbs, are bipedal and possess slightly more advanced brains, thus if you can kill millions of cows for
food weekly, no difference between them and humans, excluding laws of course.
Reporter asking Bush about God:

"Yes Mr.Bush?" "'God' told you Saddam had W.M.D's?" "Can I talk to 'God'?" "No?" "Can I see 'God'?" "No?" "Will you ever
have proof your not making this 'God' up?" "No?"
Feel free to debate any point in my post, but I saw at least a point in every post that was supporting racism, even NBK's, who I
was saddened to see refer to the holocaust as the hollowhoax, unless he was joking, of course, that I could easily fillet, as I'm
sure there is some in mine. The only reason I didn't vivisect them all was a) it's long enough as is and b) why not add a new
view instead of rehashing old ones.
Charles Owlen Picket January 23rd, 2008, 10:24 AM

Why would you infer that Jesus was schizophrenic?
You'll certainly get some responses from some folks on the issues re: antisemitism. I love debates and you may have some
work cut out for you on this issue. I actually don't have a in depth agenda with this as I have known few individuals of Jewish
extraction but seeing as I have been called everything from a Jew to a policeman I have to chuckle at your heart felt
response. Don't take it all so seriously. Some are true national socialists. Some don't actually know what that is. But you WILL
get some responses with your post. Just make sure you do your homework as there are a few people here who can think their
way out of a paper bag (and some unfortunately, who can't). I'm actually glad to see that someone would question anything
and everything; good luck.
Aristocles January 23rd, 2008, 01:19 PM

Goblin$:
Interesting... I don't find a single entry under your nom de plum that proffers either scientific knowledge or knowledge per se.
Good luck... Judging by your post, you'll need it, here.
Advice: Stop and actually think things through, not everything is so base or simplistic. People here often make nuanced, even
arcane arguments. Pay attention.
I guess the loss of NBK will be truly felt. :(
Charles: LOL! There are quite a few here who can think their way out of a paper bag...
Remember the words of Uncle Isaac: "Amicus Plato amicus Aristoteles magis amica veritas."
Goblin$ January 24th, 2008, 06:45 AM

Charles:
Symptoms of schizophrenia: delusions, hallucinations encompassing all senses , thought disorder, social isolation, illogical
and erratic actions, amongst others. Schizophrenia usually sets in during late adolescence or early-adulthood. Jesus said he
was the only way to reach god was through himself, if that isn't a delusion of grandeur I don't know what is lol. He heard the
voice of god; schizophrenics hear all kinds of voices yet they have no major religions based upon their voices. Many times
throughout the bible he saw "signs" of god's presence or some such nonsense. Thought disorder is the illogical or odd
formation of language and suggests disordered thinking: "This very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three
tim es (Matthew 26:34) That is Jesus tellin g his dis ciple some ridiculous shit, that certainly constitutes th ought disord er in my
books. He went for 40 days into the wilderness with nothing to get away from people and closer to god... this is both illogical
and socially isolating behavior. Based on our current criteria for a schizophrenic, Jesus was a schizophrenic.
I too love debates :) I'm amongst the few who still attend town meetings and voice my opinion on local issues which,
coincidentally, is why democracy is dead. No one exercises their democratic voice anymore, they just let shit happen, yet they
wonder why democracy is dead.
Antisemitism is a serious issue and must be taken seriously, did you watch the footage of the camps? If you didn't you
should, thats some mind boggling shit. I'm hoping for responses because this is a very easy topic lol discrimination against
people based on religion or race is illogical and I find it amusing to watch people try to rationalize it.
You must question everything because you have to realize everything we "know" is bullshit anyways. 500 years ago the earth
was the center of the universe, if you disagreed you were a witch and burned at the stake lol. This was called geocentricism
and was espoused by the "great" aristotle and plato, they were proven wrong yet we still use many of their other beliefs...
odd? Who's to say there won't be another theory in 400 years that proves heliocentricism is a crock of shit and in the future
people won't all laugh at our foolish theory as we now laugh at geocentricism.
Aristocles:
Interesting... I don't find a single point in your criticism regarding the actual content of my post.
If you take offense to any point in my post, please enlighten me as to what offends you so I can change your view point
through further discourse.
Advice: If someone says something you disagree with draw attention to the offending idea and why it offends you. Don't
merely offer superfluous advice.
Numerous posts were about as "subtle" and "nuanced" as taking a shit in a synagog while yelling "Heil Hitler".
Explain your insinuation that NBK would ban me. My post displayed intelligence, was logical, possessed excellent grammar and
was not ridiculously antagonistic towards the target audience. I think you merely couldn't think of a rebuttal or you would of
posted that and not the tripe you did.
Lastly, go down to your local boxing and/or kickboxing gym, find a 5'8" 150 black fighter who's been fighting as even an
amateur for a numerous years and call him an impotent nigger... I'd pay to see that lol. Americans always confuse size with
fighting skill. I'm serious about that too, learn that valuable lesson before you do it in an uncontrolled environment and get
severely beaten.
Charles Owlen Picket January 24th, 2008, 10:03 AM

On a serous note however, I know in my heart that issues of moral inflexibility whether it pose itself as religious dogma or
political pap is simply a coping mechanism for many. This is a damn confusing world with very unequal levels & boundaries. I
would NOT want to be a kid growing up during this period.
Well, at this point I suppose I'm just going to back the Hell out of the way, move some of the furniture and take all the
breakable stuff off the tables....
BFR January 30th, 2008, 10:53 AM

Isn't it funny how people can easily change their thoughts about others ? I will give a few hints and let you do all the math
related. Did you know that most Israeli goverments were taken by the biggest political party down there' the Likud?? and did
you know about its relationship (or should I say its birth ?) with the ( Irgun ) which is jewish organization responsible for
several bombings in which not only civlian arabs were killed but also British soldiers?. For tha reason it was calssified as a
terrorist organizatoin by British authoroties. Such organizations were responsible for the assassination of British officials after
the romanian ship tragedy that was destroyed by a Russian torpedo after the British abandoned it with a dead engin in the
middle of the sea. They are also responsible for the British embassy bombing in Rome in October,31,1946. Now here is a
small clip from an article from wikipedia.org "The Irgun stepped up its activity and from February 19 until March 3 it attacked
18 British military camps, convoy routes, vehicles, and other facilities. The most notable of these attacks was the use of a car
bomb to destroy the Goldschmidt House Officers Club in Jerusalem, which was in a heavily guarded compound. Seventeen
officers were killed in the attack. As a result, a curfew was imposed over much of the country, enforced by approximately
20,000 British soldiers." go to wikipedia.org and lok up "Irgun" then scroll down till "Independent struggle against the British" .
Read through, click some links, What do you think now ?? isn't funnt how people change when they change and kiss the asses
of their slayers? Personally, I recomend to lokk up "Operation Agatha" , "The Jewish Resistance Movement", and "Ehite paper
of 1939" .
Aristocles January 30th, 2008, 01:07 PM

Goblin$:
The entire tone of your post was being criticized: from your opening insinuation of the forum's ALLEGED dedication to
knowledge, to the ignorant, puerile comments such as "I strongly suggest you shoot yourself in the head, multiple times,
preferably with a 12 gauge shotgun, I call it "pulling a Cobain", as your worthless genes are contaminating an already
overflowing cesspool", to the simply more asinine: "I don't want to make it long because I've wallowed in the filth long
enough", statement.
The comments seem juvenile and basically are worded in way that makes appear to be the rant of the mentally retarded, or
the least, an imbecile.
My criticism was based on the fact that you come here and criticize, yet you haven't added one damn thing to the forum, just
this puerile opus.
What bothers me? Tone, tenor, and content... AND Logically speaking, no one can change their "view point" except the
possessor of the view point.
Superfluous advice? Wonderful, you read my addenda... the advice is not superfluous advice at all. It is always valuable to
think things through before writing some long juvenile rant.
Subtle and nuanced: Numerous posts lacks subtlety and nuance. Certainly. As I stated, there are many that do not. If you
actually read this forum you would see legions of posts by NBK, festergrump, LoD, Enkidu, Kaydon, even the originator of this
thread (jpsmith123), that are not simplistic in any way. Certainly none lack the sophistication of your pathetic little rant. You
could give your thoughts without all of the lame bullshit. Hell, I bet most could even spell "synagogue".
Blow their heads off with a shotgun is certainly not base or ignorant... I guess it falls, more in line with pathetically stupid.
As for NBK banning you, I was referring to his funny counter arguments to posts like yours. Try reading some on this forum,
before throwing a childish rant...
Me go to a gym? I have spent my adult life in gyms. Lifting weights people like yourself cannot even grasp qualitatively let
alone quantitatively. I have competed in venues of hundreds of spectators. I have been in the arena. But alas, I am 41 years
old, gone are the days...
I have fought my fights, both winning and losing, but I have been in them.
Try this: Pull your panties up snugly, drag your ass into a gymnasium and YOU challenge someone. C'mon Mary, you like to
dispense challenges, you get in the ring.
Americans, in toto, do not "confuse" anything, it's precisely these dumb fuck generalizations- AGAINST WHICH IT WOULD
SEEM YOUR POST WAS RAILING- that make you appear even more of an ass.
See my addenda for your new word, learn it, live it...
Kaydon January 30th, 2008, 09:25 PM

I really didn't want to post anything on this
thread, as it truly is a disgrace to a site allegedly dedicated to
knowledge, not idiocy and millennia old hate rhetoric, however a few
things wouldn't let me ignore this blight on the site. Firstly,
racism is based on race not religion for fucks sake, a Caucasian
Muslim's race is Caucasian, not Muslim, his religion is Islam, not his
bloody race, and if you really are thinking, "man this guy is an
idiot... no one said anything about Caucasian Muslims," read it once
more, but interchange Muslim with Jew; in multiple posts I saw Jews
being compared against "whites", all the Jewish people I know are
"white". This bothered me right off the bat as how can you take a
"scientific" site catering to chemistry related pursuits seriously,
when fundamental scientific concepts are completely ignored. If you
think the study of physiological differences between Homo sapiens
originating in different climates doesn't involve chemistry, I
strongly suggest you shoot yourself in the head, multiple times,
preferably with a 12 gauge shotgun, I call it "pulling a Cobain", as
your worthless genes are contaminating an already overflowing
cesspool.
Quite the critic, aren't you?
We're discussing Muslims in the context of their religion, not the

race associated with that religion per se. Jews are a mixed race
(Asiatic). They identify themselves as descendents of Esau/Edom, not
that of Jacob Israel. They may look White, but they have tainted blood
in their veins. Jews are semitic people. There is no such thing as
'lookng white', as our definition of white is very diverse (Italians,
Germans, Finnish, etc..). Assyrians, another semitic people, have very
light-skin. This doesn't make them white though, does it? It is the
the Jews that worship the Talmud. It is the atheist Jews that worship
the State of Israel. It is the Zionist Jew, whose his entire
allegiance is to that state and International Jewry, versus even the
country of their birth. Usually, but not always, they are the
Ashkenazim Jew, those Jews whose real origins are with the Khazar
tribe of Southern Russia. These Jews are not even the same as the Jews
of the Bible!
http://www.jewwatch.com/
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/539/nozionismdt2.jpg
'...the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and
also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all
men..." 1 Th. 2:14,15, NIV
If they are hostile to ALL men, why should I not be hostile to

ALL jews?
"A people that has been persecuted for 2,000 years must be doing
something wrong."...... The jew, Henry Kssinger.
Racism is a legitimate retardation; would you refuse a

life-saving transplant from whatever race you dislike simply because
they are that race? I strongly doubt it and if you say you would, I'd
bet my life that you're lying. North Americans aren't hard people,
most would agree the hardest are soldiers, the majority of criminals
aren't hard, lol our jails aren't Colombian hell holes, they lack
discipline or they most likely wouldn't be in jail and the vast
majority are drug addicts, yet how many of our soldiers would commit
Seppuku or Hara-Kiri rather than face the shame of capture by the
enemies hand? LOL. I can't imagine a single one disemboweling
themselves, I can imagine Spec-ops or mercenaries shooting themselves
instead of the torture they know they'd face, but thats to prevent
pain not to inflict it as punishment for failure, no, it's much easier
to imagine them at home when their tour of duty is over, playing
Playstation, or enjoying time with their families. I respect our
soldiers immensely, the war for oil not at all, so don't even imply I
don't. However, this was a common practice for officers and even
soldiers facing defeat in Japan even 100 years ago , with numerous
soldiers and civilians doing so rather than surrendering after losing
WW2. If you can not respect the hardness of a culture that teaches
extremely painful death is better than dishonor something is wrong
with you.
I've always liked these hypothetical scenario arguments.
It all depends entirely on what you mean when you say "racist". If
"racist" means I ignorantly hate all people who don't happen to be
white, just because I want to, then no I am not a "racist". If
"racist" means recognising that there are differences between races
which are responsible for the completely different civilizations races
have created throughout history - and for the overwhelming evidence in
favour of race having an impact on intellect, for example, then yes, I
am a "racist".
I prefer the term Racialist though. I'm sure that in your cosy Liberal
world where you believe that everyone is equal and the world is free,
you haven't actually been told where the word "Racist" comes from. The
word "Racist" was a word coined by Leon Trotsky, the Communist mass
murderer, to demonise his political opponents as he wanted control of
the Bolshevik Party. The word "Racist" is still being used in the same
vein today by people like yourself, who wish to silence/degrade people
who have a valid opinion. Next.
Okay, no one is going to take a Tanto and make a left-to-right cut,

let's start calling it what it is, shall we? It's suicide. Using
Japanese terms for it doesn't make you sound smart.
It's PlayStation.
Oh, so the war is for oil? Are you mad boy?
Now about the "rag-heads" as many idiots have referred to them.

Firstly if you live in a desert you get heat stroke very quickly if
you don't cover yourself, secondly the toughness of these "rag-heads"
is incomprehensible to the common, obese fuck at McDonalds getting his
double cheese burger and fries. Our soldiers have an exceedingly
small chance of dying in Iraq or Afghanistan, the "rag-heads" have an
exceedingly small chance of surviving. Not only that, but if someone
invaded your country and had 40 thousand mercenaries roaming around
with NO LAWS, no military, no criminal and no Iraqi/Afghan laws
applicable to them shooting whatever they want, even going outside
would be kind of crazy. We have superior weaponry, communications,
nice tents with air conditioning, computers with internet at the big
bases, good food in abundant supply, including all the garbage
fast-food chains, but most importantly, we have air support. They
have AK's, RPG's, cell-phones and bombs that can be made from
information on this site, can you imagine trying to fight a M2 Bradley
IFV with the stuff on this site, thats a sobering thought. For every
one of our casualties, they suffer scores, yet they don't give up,
they want the invading nation out of their land. Would we do the
same? I honestly can not see it happening, there is no real hardness
in us, we aren't conscripted as children into armies and forced to
kill, rape and mutilate entire villages like thousands of African
children. We don't live in tin-shacks, starving, with no heat,
deathly ill and seething with rage everyday, directed towards the
people living in the mansions like tens of millions all over the
world. Look what happened in Kenya when the elections were thought to
have been shady, violent riots leaving at least a 100 dead. What
happened when it's acknowledged by many that our president didn't win
the election and stole it? Absolutely nothing lol, it became a
fucking joke... pathetic. So if you aren't a completely closed minded
bigot you'll see that they are many things to be admired about in
other cultures, even if it's just a grudging respect of their fighting
resolve and inherent toughness.
First of all, anyone with common sense knows layers keeps you cooler.
Why do farmers wear long-sleeves? Exactly. You're gonna have to come
with something a little harder than that to stump Forumites. "Good
food" is debateable.
We're also not brainwashed from birth to believe that if we martyr

ourselves on the enemies' spear that we will be greeted in the
afterlife.
"If our buildings, our highways, and our railroads should be wrecked,
we could rebuild them. If our cities should be destroyed, out of the
very ruins we could erect newer and greater ones. Even if our armed
might should be crushed, we could rear sons who would redeem our
power. But if the blood of our White race should become corrupted and
mingled with the blood of Africa, then the present greatness of the
United States of America would be destroyed and all hope for
civilization would be as impossible for a Negroid America as would be
redemption and restoration of the Whiteman's blood which had been
mixed with that of the Negro." (Senator Theodore G. Bilbo, of
Mississippi in 1947)
The White race has crossed seas, harnessed rivers, carved mountains,
tamed deserts, and colonized the most barren icefields. It has been
responsible for the invention of the printing press, cement, the
harnessing of electricity, flight, rocketry, astronomy, the telescope,
space travel, firearms, the transistor, radio, television, the
telephone, the lightbulb, photography, motion pictures, the
phonograph, the electric battery, the automobile, the steam engine,
railroad transportation, the microscope, computers, and millions of
other technological miracles.
The White Race has discovered countless medical advances, incredible

applications, scientific progress, etc. Its members have included such
greats as Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Homer, Tacitus, Julius Ceaser,
Napoleon, William the Conqueror, Marco Polo, Washington, Jefferson,
Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Magellan, Cabot, Edison, Graham Bell,
Pasteur, Leeuwenhoek, Mendel, Newton, Galileo, Watt, Ford, Luther,
Devinci, Poe, Tennyson, and thousands upon thousands of other notable
achievers. (Waddell, L. A. The Makers of Civilization, 1929, Angriff
Press, Hollywood, CA; Weisman, Charles A. The Origins of Race and
Civilization, 1990, SFA)
The rest can be found here:

http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/Inter-31.htm
Bigotry or truth? Perhaps you're confusing the two. The truth needs no
justification. The truth will elicit hostility from those who either
hate the truth, or those who are guilty of consciously living a lie...
I dare you to disprove any of it ;) Should be no problem for you,

after all you pretend to know everything.
The entire premise of the thread is hilarious, with the U.S.

about to pass the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism
Prevention Act of 2007, which could legally make even posting
anti-government comments a crime, along with a myriad other acts that
THEY have the power to define, read the act if you don't believe me.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-1955
Last time I checked Fuck-head and co. were
right-wing Christian zealots from the south, not Jews from Israel. I
also saw something about the Jewish people being accused of moaning
about a certain atrocious event. Hmmmmm, give me a second here to
think. This sounds a mite like Americans and a certain false-flag
operation, with the exclusion of roughly 5 997 250 lives, years of
slave labor in atrocious conditions at concentration camps across the
continent and oooohhhh lets see, numerous laws passed that undermine
and are beginning to threaten to completely take away our civil
liberties... that sounds about right. How did Hitler whip the German
nation into such a fervor? Jew bashing, an age old tradition... "Why
is our economy in shambles? The JEWS!" Not the spanking they
received in WW1 and resulting economic collapse because of the harsh
penalties imposed upon the nation, of course. Judging by this
'enlightened individual's' view, "If we simply just ousted the Jews
[from] this country (what a glorious day that would be) and stopped
supporting Israel, we'd be a lot better off.[ I wonder what his views
on homosexuals and retards are? I suspect quite similar to the
Fhrer's.]", Bush just needs to start talking smack about the Jew's
and we're set to go. Homosexuality already is illegal in most states
so it'll be easy enough to make an imprisonable offense. Is it really
any surprise we're adopting Nazi-like laws with views like these in
the country?
Bob Whitaker, the wisest publicly known White Nationalist by a mile,

has been saying for some time that the revolution will happen quickly.
It will be upon us before we know it. The housing market has crashed.
The stock market is crashing. The dollar is crashing. The Supreme
Court is getting ready to decide whether the second Amendment is still
applicable(The result is a foregone conclusion). A negro is getting
ready to move into the White House(Wonder if he will change the
name?). But, once again, just as has happened in over a hundred White
jurisdictions over the last two millenia, we are about to experience a
very rude awakening. This awakening will not result in a pleasant
situation for those who have sought our destruction. Our enemies have
their ducks in a row.
Their goal is clearly in view at all times. When Foxman issued the AGL
statement telling the Supreme Court that they must disarm White
people, he pulled no punches, saying, "Gun violence and the caching
of dangerous weapons are commonplace among extremists. If states lose
the right to regulate firearm ownership, it would help violent bigots
in their efforts to create an America based on hate and intolerance.
We urge the Supreme Court to ensure that states have the tools to
counter these agents of hate." Despite the fact that negroes kill
more White people every month than persons who could possibly be
called "Extremist" have killed in half a century, the "Main Man" for
jewry is concerned only about US!
Hitler gave Germany a very stable economy, they were falling apart
before he came into power. Homosexuals are disgusting creatures. I bet
you're a closet faggot. Homosexuals account for the vast majority of
sexually transmitted diseases.
For any of the people who think the holocaust didn't happen
make a doctor's appointment, I think you may be developmentally
disabled, after you discover you are a certified retard, watch Alfred
Hitchcock edited footage of Allied armies as they entered the camps
for the first time. Truly the most shocking and "real" images ever to
be put on any medium. Remember there were dozens of camps over the
continent, not all as massive as Auschwitz and T.II, but still very
large and not all for Jewish people.
-- The movie --
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/camp/view/ --
http://germarrudolf.com/Denial.html
http://germarrudolf.com/work/trr/index.html
http://www.zundelsite.org/english/101/101toc.html
Get your shit together.
Guards at the camps were in just as bad of shape as the prisoner Jews
and others, possibly slightly better health but they were in no way,
shape, or form treated well. Did the Japanese treat Americans well in
POW camps? Did the Viet Cong treat Americans well in POW camps? Do the
rag heads treat Americans well? No. Did the Nazi's treat Americans
well? No. Did we treat any of the previously mentioned well? No. Gas
chambers never existed, and as I stated previously on here you cannot
die from Carbon Monoxide, from "captured soviet diesel" in 32 minutes,
period.
Oh, I bet this never occurred to you..

http://wsi.matriots.com/first_holocaust.html
Lastly my personal views. I don't want to make it long because

I've wallowed in the filth long enough. A tiger is a tiger, if the
bastards blue and green striped it's still a tiger and will try and
eat you. I apply the exact same concept to an ape, black ape, blue
ape, old ape, new ape... minus the eating part of course... unless in
the deep Amazon, Congo, or Papua New Guinea jungles:) Religion is a
crock of shit that has been used to govern apes since time immemorial,
the pharaoh of Egypt WAS GOD, imagine that. Your word is the be all
and end all, any surprise the civilization lasted nearly 3000 years?
God itself was the ruler... lol. After that we had god directly
talking to someone, the pope was god's chosen vassal and through-out
the middle ages the church was the true power, the church was greater
than the state back then. Odd as I'm pretty sure the schizophrenic
Jesus, who sure as fuck wasn't Caucasian and blue-eyed if he was real,
said he was the only way to god, to refrain from violence and that
wealth was bad... might have gotten that wrong though my memory is
poor ;) The idea amuses me for the question that arises is, when did
the "soul" come to inhabit the Homo sapien? When it changed over tens
of thousands of years from Neanderthal man? Cro-Magnon man? The
first change from the monkey that ran from the Wooly Mammoths into
Homo erectus? The idea is so ridiculous it's offensive, and I'm
amazed that people bought it for so long and that so many still do. I
don't think any Homo sapien has any more value than any other
creature, we have no souls, they have no souls, we just got thumbs,
are bipedal and possess slightly more advanced brains, thus if you can
kill millions of cows for food weekly, no difference between them and
humans, excluding laws of course.
I agree with you here somewhat.
Feel free to debate any point in my post, but I saw at least a

point in every post that was supporting racism, even NBK's, who I was
saddened to see refer to the holocaust as the hollowhoax, unless he
was joking, of course, that I could easily fillet, as I'm sure there
is some in mine. The only reason I didn't vivisect them all was a)
it's long enough as is and b) why not add a new view instead of
rehashing old ones.
NBK was admittedly a White Nationalist, adorned with White Pride

tattoos and supported his race to the best of his ability.
It doesn't take even a minute of reading NBK's posts to realize he

is a WN. You apparently haven't read the forum, so why are you here?
As I have said before. Having pride is healthy. Most of us are proud
of our families and our homes, why not see your race and country as
extensions of your family and home? Are you too much of a coward to
support your race first and foremost?
Positron January 31st, 2008, 02:04 AM

Quote from Goblin$:
Reporter asking Bush about God:
"Yes Mr.Bush?" "'God' told you Saddam had W.M.D's?" "Can I talk to 'God'?" "No?" "Can I see 'God'?" "No?" "Will you ever
have proof your not making this 'God' up?" "No?"
Please cite where this came from, if possible, as I'd like to use it elsewhere.
Thanks.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > One of my old favorite: MN v. AK v. AR
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View Full Version : One of my old favorite: MN v. AK v. AR
Aristocles January 30th, 2008, 08:45 PM

Looks a reasonable place to post this...
Written by Head of the old Headsbunker.com, also known as "Ezra Coli" on the various message boards.
There's an ever present, unending debate over which is best, ARs or AKs, raging across the internet and in gun shops every day sending bile and bitter insults spewing both
ways. This debate has turned fathers against sons, best friends against one another, and........well you get the point.
The author is of the opinion that there are of course pros and cons to each family of rifle, and I refuse to engage in what is "best". As one who loves them all, especially the AK
and AR series, I thought I'd pass on some of the knowledge I have gained over the years concerning these wildly different weapons. As a bonus, I'll toss in my knowledge of
another favorite family of weapons at the Bunker, just because they are very popular these days and I often ramble about them.
So, here, for the aid of those hammering one another in the debate, is some unbiased, non-slanted, untainted raw knowledge about the AK, the AR, and the Mosin Nagant.
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm
Charles Owlen Picket January 30th, 2008, 08:53 PM

I always thought of them as two different animals and couldn't compare them. Seeming design and execution modalities were decidedly different. One high tech one low, one
a 30 the other a 22...and one undergoing constant innovation while the other remaining basically unchanged. I really never compared them. Imagine a teenage girl in a very
short skirt and an overworked nurse: both of great value in their specific arenas. :D
Would want anyone to think I didn't like nurses...
My point is that they are just tools and (just my personal thing) they are like looking in your stuff box and seeing a crescent wench and one of those new do everything
wrenches at Home Depot. Maybe the teenage girl with the tiny skirt was a better image...
Rbick January 31st, 2008, 11:47 AM

Well guys, I would have to go with my AR on this one. I own both a Rock River Arms AR-15 and a Romanian CAI AK-47 w/ folding stock. The reason for this would be the
versatility of the AR. I've put several types of optics on it, and the Picatinny hand rail makes adding accessories very easy. There are accessories for the AK, but they are not as
readily available or easy to put on. I currently have a Leupold CQM optic mounted on my AR, a simply amazing optic to use.
The accuracy of the AR is something to be mentioned as well. I spotted my buddy as he fired accurately on a target 600y away. The target was smaller than an average man.
Mind you he had the 3 power scope. The furthest I can reach out with my AK is 250y, and then the bullets seem to have a mind of their own. I realize this doesn't hold true for
all AKs, as there are custom made models out there that are just as accurate, but I'm speaking in generalities as MOST AKs are made from cheap stamped parts out of a
factory. However, I will discuss the ballistics of both rounds.
On the topic of ballistics, I almost would prefer the AK, as it has a much heavier round with a lot of knock down power. The 5.56x45mm is too small and fast, usually just
punching through your target. It was actually frustrating watching people get hit multiple times by our 5.56 and just running away. When this round was designed, I think the
idea was to wound your enemy, causing two more enemy soldiers being needed to carry him to safety. Problem is, with our current conflict, the enemy doesn't care if the
other guy dies. And if your in close quarters, wounding a guy just isn't going to do the job. It is effective however, if you have the right type of ammunition (HP or JHP) or your
targets have body armor. Only problem is the Geneva convention doesn't allow us to use HP in combat, so we use a type of sabot round. Basically its a rod jacketed in a casing
that is meant for defeating body armor. In my opinion, I think we should all switch to the .308 (7.62x51mm) chambered ARs. The reason being superior ballistics and great
knock down power.
After 400y, the 7.62x39mm drops A LOT. Although the 5.56 is a smaller bullet, its ballistics are pretty solid. For example, a 5.56 will drop about 50 inches at 500 yards as
compared to a 7.62x39 will drop about 100 :eek: Talking about bleeding energy fast. This is why I love the 7.62x51 (.308) round. Basically the same round with lots more
powder behind it. The ARs available in this caliber are my idea of a wet dream :)
The AK is very resilient against environmental factors. When I got my AK, it was rusty, beat to shit, and clearly neglected. It didn't matter, it fired every time, never jamming.
An AR in this condition would have never worked. I have since cleaned it and it is well maintained. This is the issue that has come up with ARs. My philosophy is take care of
your gun, and it will take care of you. This can be said about the AR. I recall my first experiences with one being in basic training. I had just gotten done dragging it through a
river, through mud , dirt, and sand, and it still fired time. I was surprised to say the least. The difference here is where with an AK, you wouldn't have to clean it afterwards
(although you probably should) and it would still fire. Whereas with the AR, you would need to clean it, or it wouldn't work. Still, I believe strongly in guns being maintained.
So in short, these are my major reasons for preferring the AR. Not to say the AK isn't an excellent weapon, because it most definitely is just that. The 7.62x51mm chambered
AR over the 5.56x45 is preferred specifically. It overcomes the shortcomings on the 5.56 in ballistics and still carries all the benefits of the AR. The only thing is that I might be a
little worried about firing a .308 is close quarters. I don't think it would be too much of a problem...
Charles Owlen Picket February 1st, 2008, 09:24 AM

So you like the young, nubile teenager; shirt skirt and all.... Her story is perhaps one of the most unique (or infamous) in the history of military armament procurement. There
are a lot of folks today that point to the A2 and it's descendants (M4, etc) as being one of the most reliable and accurate military weapons ever made. I was around for the A1
when I was a young man and it certainly wasn't as accurate as the present A2. But I must interject that it would run rings around the Russian SKS which it was being compared
to.
Generally we could predict about 2-4MOA from a issue A1 rifle. Today the issue rifle will actually preform a 1MOA with issue GI ammo and continue (from prone). I shot one 2
weeks ago and, iron sites and all, did as well. However, I can fucking well shoot and have for more than 30yrs. I feel very comfortable with a rifle from prone.
It was Kennedy's wiz kids that rammed the Stoner rifle home and did so much too quickly for Quartermaster services in each branch to keep pace. It was the combination of
that and bean-counters in Defense that attempted to get the rifle to shoot ball type powder and issue no cleaning kits during an active field engagement. I did my homework
on that and it's not a myth. Although an active attempt to brand it a myth was attempted!
Which in turn, resulted in significant casualties from stoppages in the field. This was one of the most alarming stories of weapons development in the history of the US. And the
Stoner-type rifle is actually physical proof of the need to innovate from field experience. Many people believe it will actually continue to improve! Most people attached to
Defense see alterations in issue ammo as being the next step in the military's desire to make the rifle into a "system". Each Stoner-type rifle is a small monument to a very
interesting, if not alarming, portion of American history.
Rbick February 1st, 2008, 10:34 AM

Yeah I like the little school girl outfit. I think I'll buy my wife one for valentines day ;).
I remember back in middle school my 8th grade teacher would talk about the old A1. He was drafted back in Vietnam and had tons of stories. He would always complain about
the A1 and how crappy it was. No forward assist, jammed frequently, a bitch to clean. He even said that while they were doing bayonet practice, he snapped the barrel right
off on the dummy. Had I been in nam at the time, I probably would have picked up an AK and just used that. Today is a different story. I loved my M4 while I was in service.
Anyway, its incredible to see how far the AR has come since its first manufacture back in the late 40s (I think). Next to the AK, it is probably one of the most widely used and
known weapons.
Aristocles February 1st, 2008, 11:07 AM

Personally, I'll go off the grid and take my K31... no reason, I just like it. :)
However, I just loved the comic aspect of the "comparison". I found myself nodding my head and laughing aloud the first time I read it.
Anformula February 1st, 2008, 04:54 PM
This issue, as you guys know, is far deeper than the individual merits of the guns. These weapons have become symbols: Capitalism vs Communisim, the United States vs
Islamic Fascism, Contra vs Sandinista......it goes back many years.
Both have their bad and good points as battlefield implements for killing. You could go on and on about that, but at the end of the day if it was me wallowing in the mud with a
rifle that my life depended on, and I needed it to go bang to save my life or my buddie's life, I would probably choose the AK. Yes, it is much less accurate. But when one
accounts for the difficulty of precise marksmanship under combat conditions, the AK is more than accurate enough.
BUT, as a "toy"....(let's face it that's what these guns mainly are to many of us) the AR wins hands down. It seems every day there is a new plethora of absolutely totally cool
gadgets that can be clamped onto an AR that has the Picatinny rail space available. The sky is the limit, be they day lasers, night lasers, red not sights, scopes, flip up iron
sights, flashlights. I could spend all my disposable income for the next year in the Surefire catalog alone.....
So say what you will, the AR definitely wins as the sexiest weapon.....:p
Rbick February 1st, 2008, 06:16 PM

True that. But I have been in the situation where I needed the AR to perform and to be accurate, and it did just that. You'd be surprised how many chances you get at accurate
shots in combat, unless your really getting rammed up the ass by a force much larger than your own, which didn't happened much over there. :D
But over all, I prefer my MK-48 medium machine gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_48_Mod_0_machine_gun). My 48 and I had some good times together in the sand
box, many cold nights. Although she was much heavier than most of my buddies weapons, as they carried the M4 or Mk46, I still loved to carry that bitch around. It made me
feel sexy. Nothing like firing 850 rpm of 7.62x51mm rounds down range from the standing position, and clearing rooms for that matter. Ah the memories :) Definitely my
favorite machine gun, and gun in general. It has the same type of picatinny rails that the ARs do. I mounted an EO Tech sight (http://www.eotech-inc.com/product.php?
id=3&cat=1) on there and an infared laser. Sorry, I'll stop now :o
Charles Owlen Picket February 2nd, 2008, 09:20 AM

To answer what may be a visual question...Yes, you ARE bending her over when you clean an AR-type rifle. And pulling the bolt carrier and charging handle for cleaning is
playing with her panties. Call em a sick fuck if you like but I slept with her in my formative years. ....I have a great many of these, "visuals"....
blutorlz3 February 3rd, 2008, 06:56 PM

Well, from my personal experience with all the three aforementioned firearms the Mosin Nagant wins. In my opinion the AR is a very accurate firearm but lacks the power of a
AK, while the AK lacks the accuracy. The reason I say the Mosin Nagant is best is its; power, accuracy, distance, and ease of maintenance. Other than the AK there are few
firearms that can be maintained as easy as the Mosin. The problem with AK's is that there are so few foreigner manufactured ones coming in the way they were meant to be
made, such as the Saiga or the Vepr.
The thing I don't like about the AK vs AR conversation is that the comparisons are not even fair. Most of the AR guys are going out and buying a 1000$ to 1500$ AR and they
compare it to a 300$ Wasr or some other cheap clone. what I think needs to be done is comparing a Vepr/Saiga to a comparable priced AR variant .
Charles Owlen Picket February 5th, 2008, 09:34 AM

Why the introduction of a bolt gun? Would a Mauser or a Springfield or a Enfield be just as out in left field?
Rbick February 5th, 2008, 01:17 PM

Yeah that is kind of random. From a sniping standpoint, I guess it would be ok to have a nice bold action, as they tend to be more accurate at long distances. But its hard to
compare two automatic rifles with a bolt action...
The topic of this thread is rather vague though, so its hard to tell in what ways people are comparing the weapons. It doesn't specify the purpose for which you are chosing
your weapon. For example, one person may want an AK for combat but an AR for target shooting. Over all, I would still go with the .308 AR :) (unless there was a MK-48
available)

ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THE CONCEPT HERE OF THE "MAIN BATTLE RIFLE"?
I once had a FAL (FN) - that was a fair piece out to about 600. It was a British weapon and not inexpensive to manufacture. I could not see equipping an army with them as
they did NOT seem either GI proof or easily repairable in the field. Yet they are still around and some non-NATO countries field them as main battle rifles.
blutorlz3 February 7th, 2008, 06:28 PM

Charles Owlen Picket
you ask why I introduced a blot gun if you were to read the title "MN v. AK v. AR" you would of understood. MN stands for Mosin Nagant, which is in the title so I'm not the
one who actually introduced bolt guns into this conversation.
MN v. AK v. AR means Mosin Nagant v. Avtomat Kalashnikova v. AR.
Anformula February 8th, 2008, 01:43 PM

I agree about the usefulness of the full power .308 round. It has sort of fallen out of favor as a general use cartridge for military rifles, but it brings with it abilities the .223
definitely does not have. Like the capability to attack lightly armored vehicles for example. I witnessed an incident where .223 rounds were deflected/fragmented by a standard
car windshield....
That definitely would not happen with a .308.
ChippedHammer February 15th, 2008, 09:22 AM

Fuck it, just buy all three :)
I prefer the AK, I would rather have the bigger round and a weapon I can fix with a stone.

I sort of got that part about MN representing Mosin Nagant. I still wonder why we include one bolt weapon in the midst of two self loaders? Are we indeed, talking about main
battle rifles of various eras or is this an arbitrary comparison? And if so, is the purpose to look at Warsaw Pact nations vs NATO or simply US? I just wanted to understand the
reasoning here.
TJTay89 February 18th, 2008, 02:56 AM

I sort of got that part about MN representing Mosin Nagant. I still wonder why we include one bolt weapon in the midst of two self loaders? Are we indeed, talking about main
battle rifles of various eras or is this an arbitrary comparison? And if so, is the purpose to look at Warsaw Pact nations vs NATO or simply US? I just wanted to understand the
reasoning here.
I think the whole MN vs. AK vs. AR goes on because these rifles have all have large fanboy populations. I guess I understand the AK vs. AR, but I do get lost with why the MN
is being compared when it isn't even from the same period or type of weapon (Lee Engfield vs. MN would make more sense to me).
That being said, I like the MN. It is nice to fear the recoil and break your hand when you try to open the chamber after you shoot five rounds of milsurp :rolleyes:. I guess that
is what you get for spending $80 on a rifle though? I hear that some of the Finnish MN are really nice but now people have caught on to that so they are getting harder to find
at the low prices of yesteryear.

As a general use rifle that covers "all the bases", how can you really argue against the M-14/M-1A rifles? They combine a full power round with complete field proven durability
and reliability, and with a little tweaking, sniper grade accuracy.....
Their only disadvantage is relatively high weight.
alphaman February 22nd, 2008, 12:57 PM

I personally would go with the AR for two reasons. One, it is much more accurate. Two, it uses NATO ammunition, and if our beloved government ever decides the Second
Amendment only applies to our military and law enforcement, NATO ammo would be more available than civilian ammo.
LuzRD February 24th, 2008, 04:32 AM

AK-47=designed to be used in full auto with the ability to fire in semi auto.
M-16=designed to be used in semi auto with the ability to fire full auto/burst.
The message ive gotten from threads on various sites is that the rejection criterion for AK-47's is 4moa. While it is certainly not a tack driver, it just requires a different fight
style (get CLOSER!! haha).
Now obviously these comparison threads are always going to be apples and oranges "my AR is more accurate" vs. "my AK is more reliable" etc...
I would be hard pressed to choose the "best" rifle. There are far too many circumstances which would show favor to EITHER rifle. Both are infamous, masterpieces of design in
their own right, and dead sexy!
For the sake of conversation, if we are comparing the pure rifle (no super-ninjafied gadgets). I would likely choose an AK-47 for service.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W hat would YO U do with a
centrifuge?
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View Full Version : What would YOU do with a centrifuge?
Positron January 30th , 2 0 0 8 , 1 1 : 5 7 P M

Hi All.
I recently acquired a Sorvall GLC-2B ce ntrifuge. It pulls a force of nearly 5,000G's on its contents @ 6,000RPM.
S e e : m y centrifuge (http://websites.labx.com /rankin/pics/1046.jpg).
W hat would you do with it? I n e e d s o m e ideas...biochemistry experim ents, organic chemistry, etc.
I a m not a biochemist by any means, but I heard that it's not too incredibly hard to extract DNA via one of these. If I recall
(and believe that I re ad it in a paper from a lin k off of this forum) it involved crushing anim al tissue (or hum a n i n s i d e - t h e -
m outh tissue?) under liquid nitrogen, in a mortar and pestle. Separate out som ething with solvents...put th e filtrate in a
centrifuge for 30 m inutes...extract a la yer...dye it....Wa-laa: Recognizable patterns of main proteins A/T/G/C. (wow, and I
actually rem e m bered what those were, from m any years ago in High School.)
Anyhow, the procedure went som ething like tha t.
Dr. M January 31st, 2008, 03:04 AM

I h o p e y o u g ot a good price.
As a Biochem ist by trade, I can tell you that you need a good bit of brushing up on your k nowledge of DNA and its
constituents; "extract a layer and dye it" and "m ain proteins A/T / C / G " m a k e s m e t h i n k y o ur biology is m ore than a little rusty.
First, as a sa fety note, inspect the rotor arm ature, the bucket pivots, and the buckets/other sam ple carriers that come with the
m achine; if possible, get an idea of the hours on the ro tor and contact Sorvall for proper de-rating instructions for the rotor
h o u s i n g a n d i t s s a m ple carriers. Just b ecause the dial g o e s t o 6 k d o e s n ' t m ean the thing will actually handle it under all
configuration s. Most of this inform ation (at least relevant to when the equipment was all-new) should be in the operator's
m anual, but centrifug e c o m p a nies' tech service departm ents are generally VERY helpful when it com es to this sort of thing;
liability's a bitch, and rotor failure - under ANY circumstance - is catastrophic. Google search for "centrifuge rotor failure" and
plen ty of links - for exam ple, from Purdue and MIT - will com e up, includ ing im agery that should m ake you think twice about
irresponsible use.
Furthermore, the num ber one rule of centrifuge safety is balance. The second rule of centrifuge safety is balance. You'll know
an im balance when you first feel it - centrifuges should be smoo ooooth as butter when they fire up; every 'fuge has a "sweet
spot" at which the whole piece resonates during spin-up, not matter how balanced it may be... however, this will be a
m omentary "shudder" very sm all in m agnitude, and will disappear as rapidly as it appeared. Keeping your hand on the 'fuge
a s i t s p i n s u p , a n d t h e o t h e r h a n d o n t h e e m ergency stop, will allow you to minim ize the potential for catastrophe. NEVER wa lk
away from a centrifug e until it's spun up; walking two or three steps away is fine if you're nervous at first, but be dam n sure to
use your eye s a n d e a r s t o s e n s e d a n g e r . Y o u ' r e m e s s i n g w i t h a L O T of k inetic energy, and it's best not to let it get even an
iota out of line.
Now, to answer your question about preparing DNA, I am sorry to disappoint you but your centrifuge will not suffice for this
purpose. Cell pellets, crude extract partial clarification, separatin g crystalline substance from supernatant, etc. it will do very
well; spinning out DNA it will not.
VERY briefly, standard techniques for DNA purification re volve around lysis of nucleotide-rich tissue, sedimentation o f cellular
debris (via centrifuge), digestion of RNA with an enzym e known as RNAse A, extraction of the m ixture first with buffer-saturated
p h e n o l , d e c a n t i n g t h e a q u e o u s supern atant, extracting with chloroform (to remove trace p henol in the now mostly p ure
m ixture), decanting once again, then precipitating the DNA with ethanol or isopropanol at low temp erature.
The procedure varies in its m inutia, of course, depending on whether one wants to purify whole genom ic DNA (e.g. human
chrom o s o m e s) or plasm id DNA (sm all circular DNA entities used for genetic engineering of bacteria and other unicellular
o r g a n i s m s). The great thing a bout isolating plasmid DNA is that, using alkaline lysis at room t e m p erature followed by
neutralization with a cold acetic acid/potassium acetate solution, one may denature the DNA in the mixture and rapidly cause
the significantly larger genomic fraction to coag ulate and spin out with the cellular debris; the sm aller, usually supercoiled
p l a s m id DNA rem ains in solution and is purified as I've m e n t i o n e d a b o v e .
The unfortun ate part is that final precipitation of the DNA creates such sm all nanoparticles in suspension that centrifugation at
forces of minim ally 10,000 x G (or 10,000 RCF if you like the m o d e r n n o m enclature) are required to obtain any sort of
appreciable yield. Your m odel sim ply won't put up that kind of force; however, if you have more in the budget I highly
recom m e n d t h e E p p e n d o r f 5 4 1 5 C m icrocentrifuge (or a related mem ber of the sa m e f a m ily of 'fug es). If you can afford a
large benchtop Sorvall, I im agine the Eppy won't be much of a stretch.
Finally, once you have purified DNA, there's rea lly not all that m uch you can do with it unle ss you have access to the reagents
and technical expertise; if you're thinking of framing som e o n e f o r m urder, and you can get a chee k swab or a blood sam ple ,
it's far better (and ea sier!) to just plan t the initial sample on-scene rather than a purified extract. If it's just for fun, then I can
give you detailed procedures for many things that'd probably tickle your creativity bone!
In all honesty, the best use I can think of off the top of m y h e a d f o r a n o n b i o c h e m ically trained h ome user (related to the life
sciences) would be growing large cultures of brewing or baker's yeast from a purchased starter-pack, and spinning the cultures
down for freezing in order to always ha v e a c h e a p a n d a b u n d a n t s u p p l y r e a d y a t - h a n d .
If you have any m ore questions about this sort of thing, it's m y bread and butter... don't hesitate to PM m e if you don't wan t
to post openly!
BlackFalcoN January 31st, 2008, 07:59 AM

W hat I would do if I were you ?
Put it on eBa y and wait for seor El Bla ckFalcone to show up to m ake a very m odest bid on this nice piece of equipm ent. ;)
Seriously tho ugh, something that would be very possible with this machine is to extract toxic proteins/ lectins from various
plan t materials. (Abrus Precatorius, Ricinus Comm unis, etc)
I won't go into detail on the exact procedures involved in this thread, since it has been posted in the more spefic threads (+ I
don't want to encoura ge you to do so, if you don't have any real desire to perform these specific extractions - just b e c a u s e y o u
C O U L D d o e s n o t m ean you SHOULD) but search the forum for lectin extraction; and resea rch som e o f t h e l a t e r q u o t e d s o u r c e s
by m yself an d other posters o n centrifugal extraction of lectins.
Charles Owlen Picket January 31st, 2008, 09:31 AM

A centrifuge is comm only used as a filter of sorts. It pulls one m aterial from another - generally fluids and mostly o n a s m a l l
scale. It is used when tim e is at issue and also has specific glass vessels in which to place the sam p l e s . T h e a d v a n t a g e s a r e
s p e e d a n d c o n t a i n m ent. Disadvantage s are sm all scale (or individual scale at least) and the loading, unloading process. I
think of it as a filter. There are some neat things you could do with it but a lot depends on the strength of the m achine and it's
overall design.
Positron February 16th, 2008, 08:58 PM

Thanks for your replies. Sorry it took so long for me to get back, I should have m entioned that I'd be away for a while.
Dr. M, that's absolute ly fascinating. I knew that it was m ore complicated than the hand-wa ving description that I first posted,
b u t a d m itted ly I didn't realize it was THAT com plicated. It does however, sound like something tha t will be within m y reach in
the years to com e.
T h a n k s f o r m entionin g the hazards that the centrifuge can pose. Indeed, I am intim ately fam iliar with high-energy m echanical
t h i n g s , a n d I k e p t a d a m n close eye on it (even though safety glasses) when I in itially spun it up. It whirrs pleasantly :)
Obtaining the centrifuge was probably the coolest swap that I've ever done. I swapped it for a very nice Solid State Tesla Coil
that I built back in '02 :)
I won't go into detail on the exact procedures involved in this thread, since it has been posted in the more spefic threads (+ I
don't want to encoura ge you to do so, if you don't have any real desire to perform these specific extractions - just b e c a u s e y o u
C O U LD does not m ean you SHOULD)
I've done a lot of things just because I could, but I see what you're saying. I love the unconventional and will try just about
anything...though I'll do it carefully, slowly, and with gre at control. Separating the proteins sounds intriguing, and I've actually
been reading up on that subject quite a lot ove r the last year or so. I haven't put anything to use...yet! :D
Thanks, those were the replies I was h oping for.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Hallucinogens, The Essential
Psychedelic Guide and LSD My Problem C hild
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View Full Version : Hallucinogens, The Essential Psychedelic Guide and LSD My Problem Child
a3990918 February 6th, 2008, 04:36 PM

F o u n d t h e s e l i n k s o n a n E - b o o k s i t e , t h o u g h t t h e y m a y b e o f s o m e interest to the Forum m e m bers here.
Hallucinogens: From t h e 6 0 ' s t o T o d a y
This set includes 6 eBooks in PDF form at. Enjoy!
1: Ecstasy - The Com p l e t e G u i d e

2: Acid Dream s - T h e C o m plete Social History of LSD
3: Storming Heaven - LSD & T he Am erican Dream
4: The Book Of Grass - An Anthology on Indian Hem p
5: The Cannabis Growers Bible
6: Hallucinogens And Culture
http://rapidshare.com /files/82987001/Halluc_60_s_to_T oday.part1.rar

P W : faroutdude
The Essential Psychedelic Guide.

Excerpt: I am writing this book because in this prim itive tim e of political power
struggles and the "war on drugs," most inform ation on psychedelics that
reaches the public is negatively biased a n d e r r o n e o u s . T h e r e i s a l a c k o f
accu rate inform ation available regarding: the history of psychedelics,
h o w t h e y a r e c o n s u m e d , d o s a g e l e v e l s , e f f e c t s a n d e x p eriences produced,
and whether they are safe.
I've tried to focus on the less com m o n psychedelics and on
combinations, while a lso discu ssing m o r e f a m i l i a r s u b s t a n c e s s u c h a s
LSD, psilocybin, and MDMA. In m y 18 years as a psyche delic user and
rese archer I have fou nd only a few references to som e o f t h e m o r e e x o t i c
psychedelics, frequen tly incom plete an d written by peop le who had not
e x p e r i e n c e d t h e m first hand. The information presented here draws upon
m y research, as well as extensive personal experience with these
s u b s t a n c e s , a n d i n v o l v e m e n t i n c o m munities where they are used.
AND
LSD My Problem Child.

Excerpt: Num erous accounts o f the discovery of LSD have been published in English; none ,
unfortunately, have b e e n c o m pletely a ccurate. Here, at last, the father of LSD details the
history of his "problem child" and his long and fruitful career as a research che mist. In a
real sense, this book is the inside story of the birth of the Psychedelic Age, and it cannot
be denied that we have here a highly candid and personal insight into one of the most
im portant scientific discoveries of our time, the significance of which has yet to da wn on
m ankind.
Surpassing its historical value is the im m e n s e p h i l o s o p h i c a l i m port of this work. Never
b e f o r e h a s a c h e m i s t , a n e x p e r t i n t h e m ost materialistic of the sciences, advanced a
W e l t a n s c h a u u n g o f s u c h a m ystical and transcendental nature. LSD, psilocybin, and the
other hallucinogens d o indeed, as Albert Hofm ann asserts, constitute "cracks" in the
edifice of m aterialistic rationality, cracks we would do we l l t o e x p l o r e a n d p e r h a p s
wide n.
http://rapidshare.com /files/84829009/Halluc2.rar
P W : weirdscience
Lewis February 6th, 2008, 07:52 PM

Ah! O nce the water cooler opens up, all the oddball stuff com es out of the woodwork. :p

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Dissolving l e a d
Log in
View Full Version : Dissolving lead
comdvr February 7th, 2008, 03:09 PM

After being a long tim e lurker and using the search feature to answer various que s t i o n s I h a v e h a d , I h a v e c o m e u p o n a
situation I have not seen covered in the Forums.
I have a registered .22 cal. suppressor that can be a real pain in the ass to clean after a few thousand rounds have been put
through it. The cleaning process involves an over night soak in cleaning solvent, (to loosen the carbon) followed by several
hours of scra ping to rem o v e t h e l e a d .
I have seen in other forum s where the use of a 50/50 mixture o f household white vinegar and hyd r o g e n p e r o x i d e a r e u s e d a s
a s o aking agent to dissolve the lead. My question is this, will this mixture cause any dam age to th e 3 0 4 s t a i n l e s s s t e e l t h e
baffles are constructe d o f ?
I have also contacted the m anufacture r of the suppressor with this question, and he does not seem to know how the metal will
react.
T h a n k y o u i n a d v a n c e , p l e a s e don't ban m e, and if any further information is needed, just ask.
ex tech February 16th, 2008, 02:02 PM

I n t h e p r o c e s s e s o f a m ateur gold refin i n g , t h e s o l u t i o n u s e d t o d i s s o l v e t h e b a s e m etals away from the gold is equal parts (by
volum e) 30% HCl, an d 3% H2 O2. This solution is capable of dissolving a lm ost any m etal. W h e n h e a t e d i t i s a l s o c a p a b l e o f
dissolving gold. That said, I would thin k twice a bout putting any type of ferrous alloy into an acid p eroxide solution.

Just a thought, if you can get a piece of 304 stainless steel, you could just let it sit in the above m ixture and see what it does
to the steel, that should tell you what you want to know.
joffe February 16th, 2008, 09:08 PM

I'm afraid yo u're going to waste your time with those recepies. T here are only two ways of rem oving lead from a suppressor; by
using a wire brush or by glass bead blasting. I've (legally) owned quite a few suppressors over the years and I've tried a
n u m ber of "miracle cures" but only the wire brush and the bead blasting work. That som ething you just have to live with, I'm
afraid.
comdvr February 22nd, 2008, 05:31 P M

After som e thought, I ended up going to Harbor Freight and picking up a cheap, gravity fed blaster that really did a good job
on the baffle s. Also, I threw two of them in a case clean er with som e fine crushed walnut tum bling m e d i a , a n d a f t e r a b o u t 4
hours, they were as clean as new.
Prior to reassembly, I put a thin coat of Nev-r-seez on all interior surfaces, and proceeded to put a thousand rounds down
range (both wet and dry). W h e n I d i s a s s e m bled for inspection, I found that m ost of the Nev-r-seez was gone, but after
degreasing, the lead was easily removed with a dental pick.
The only draw back to this is a good am ount of sm oke for the first say 30 rounds, and it seems no m ater how careful you are,
it is a m ess to apply.
Thanks for the replies.
Bacon46 February 22nd, 2008, 08:59 P M

Once you have the suppressor clean you may want to try spraying it with the mold release used for casting lead bullets. It is
d e s i g n e d t o p r e v e n t l e a d f r o m sticking to other m etals and is available anywhere that sells reloading supplies.
The stuff I use is graphite based.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Guerrilla's Arsenal
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phrankinsteyn February 8th, 2008, 06:33 PM

I was interested in reading the book: Guerrilla's Arsenal by David Harber . Has an yone seen the price for th is book? http://
www.amazon.com/Guerrillas-Arsenal-Techniques-Explosives-Tim e - D e l a y / d p / 0 8 7 3 6 4 7 5 5 6
I do not believe it is worth tha t price. What do the other m embers of E&W think? I would appreciate your thoughts a nd input.
Also wanted to let everyone know that the rapidshare link in: The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and
Inform a t i o n > B o o k a n d F i l e R e q u e s t s M i s s i n g P a g e s
Post #23 by Teshilo for SPIW HD vol 4 is no longer valid. Rapidshare web site say's "file not found"
JekyllandHyde February 10th, 2008, 01:48 AM

T h e v a l u e o f a b o o k i s n o t i s n o t m ere ly a reflection of how acurite the in formation it contains is. Biblophiles will look at several
factors when determining how much a particular book is worth. These include:
1. How rare the book is

2. The books condition
3. W ho wrote the boo k
4. W hether or not the book is an origional run or a reprint.
5. Etc
As such a m int condition book , from the origional print run, can be extrem ely valuable.
In conclusion, an orig ional book such as the Guerrillas Arsenal, IS worth a bloody lot of m oney - but the price is more likely to
reflect is collectability, rather than how pertinant the inform ation is.The value of a book is not is not merely a reflection of how
accu rate the inform ation it contains is; bibliophiles will look at several factors when determ ining how m uch a particular book is
worth. These include:
1. How rare the book is

2. The books condition
3. W ho wrote the boo k
4. W hether or not the book is an original run or a reprint.
5. Etc
As such a m int condition book , from the original print run, can be extrem ely valuable.
In conclusion, an orig inal book such as the Guerrillas Arsenal, IS worth a bloody lot of m oney - but the price is more likely to
reflect is collect ability, rather than how pertinent the inform ation is.
phrankinsteyn February 10th, 2008, 03:43 AM

Thank you for your answer. I will try find a pdf som ewhere to see what is printed in this bo ok. If I find one, I will share it with
the E&W foru m. I would like to read their opinions on th e proced ures described.

I buy a lot of rare & old books and the above is right on the money. The unique thing is that som e of the very things that
readers here would prize are NOT touted by the m ajority of the book buying public (for the present tim e....)! If you have a
hobby interest in subjects discussed here in this forum and are NOT buying up wh at you think you would like to have a record
o f ; s o m e o n e else is.
A g r e a t e x a m ple is Federoff & Urbanski. I have seen prices vary from several hundred to 10-20 do l l a r s . I h a v e s e e n b o o k s
from 1900 sell for $100 - $5 that discuss the chem istry of energetic material in a manner reproducible by the home hobby
c h e m i s t d u e t o a g e o f s y n t h e s i s e l e m ents. If you CAN find an old book seller and let it be known that you have an interest he
will charge a great deal. If you casually buy the m as availability perm its, you'll ge t a bargain.
Once it's known that such a subject has worth; the book s climb rapidly in cost. Energetic chemistry in general is a se ldom
authored subject. The real quality m aterial is still out there (for now).
Aristocles February 10th, 2008, 03:29 PM

I used to sell rare books. My focus was in the field of W estern Am ericana.
T h e a b o v e n a m ed factors are very relevant.
The BUYER/MARKET: Even the m o s t r a g g e d b o o k , s a y a Good or in som e instances an ex-libris can bring a decent fee if the
b o o k i s e x c e e d i n g l y r a r e a n d W ANTED. W i t h o u t d o u b t a b o o k c a n b e a s i g n e d , l i m ited, num bered, etc. and not bring a great
dollar if it has no real m arket. I have seen this. I could never understand why anyone would go to the expense and trouble to
produce a rare volume with no audience... perh aps family and friends... who knows...
I d o u b t I w o u l d a d d m u c h t o a b o v e m entioned post, it seems pretty accurate to me.
As a n aside: I suspect the three offerings I see at the link will be served with salt and pepper as the sellers will likely be eating
them. I could certainly be dea d wrong but I am d u b i o u s a s t o t h e m fetch ing that price. But it will depend on the market and
not the inform ation, generally.
I once found what I consider to be a 'one-of-a-kind' item . It was likely not one of a kind but was the only 'known' copy. It
brought arou nd 6k in the end. Tiny little pam phlet. Now if it would have been som e sort of an only 'known copy' of a work by
s o m e o n e w h o h a s a m uch gre ater following of collectors with much deeper pockets, then it would have been virtually priceless.
Condition is always a factor, even with excessively rare item s.

Strangely, I found m yself to b ecom e m o r e a n d m ore involved with books as objects per se rather than what most were
intended for, reading.
Thorald February 11th, 2008, 05:51 PM

No it is not worth the m oney.
Although its a good q uality bo ok, I dont think its worth the m oney. If I recall correctley it has 160 pages and I dont think its
worth the m oney on that basis not saying the inform ation is of low quality however.
Here (http://www.4shared.com /file/37526127/b 824bb01/Guerilla s_Arsenal_-

_Advanced_T echniques_For_Making_Ex plosives_and_Tim e-Delay_Bombs_-_David_Harber__Paladin_Press_.html) is a scanned
i n v e r s i o n I f o u n d s o m e tim e a g o
If its the wrong thing I uploaded it incorectly, and will upload it a gain...
Silentnite February 19th, 2008, 01:59 AM

I've noticed that in th e E&W field of bo oks the prices are rather high sim ply due to scarcity. A lot of them aren't published
a n y m ore, and those that do h a v e t h e m u s u a l l y k e e p t h e m .
But $885? I've seen it for $35 or so at the local gun shows. In which case I'll grab it next tim e I attend.

Thank you Thorald fo r the ebook.
Now I can stop searching for it and can start reading it. :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > O akleys a n d F o a k l e y s
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View Full Version : Oakleys and Foakleys

Alwa ys the stylish and dapper young m an, m e g a l o m a n i a h a s a f o n d n e s s f o r O a k l e y s u n g l a s s e s . H e b o u g h t h i s f i r s t p a i r , a n M
fram e with silk bag, many years ago off his brother for a mere $40. Although use d, they were well maintained.
Leap forward a few years later to a fascinating discovery at a flea market, Oakley sunglasses for only $5 each. Megalomania is
no naive fool, at least when it comes to cheap sunglasses. He knows full well they are counterfeit knockoffs.
T h e y m a y b e f a k e , b u t t h e y s t i l l l o o k g o o d . M e g a l o m a n i a h a s c o m p a r e d t h e m with the real thing many times and it requires

close scrutiny to tell them apa rt. Oakleys are recognizable as such when held, but Foakleys still look like th e real thing if you
are looking at them on som eones f ace.
For $ 5 t h e y f it m e g a s bu dget while looking just as good as the real thing. A real pair would be lost in an insta nt, a real pair
would be forgotten at hom e, or stuffed in the sofa. For $5 mega can buy several and have a few in the car, at hom e , a n d
wherever the s u n s h i n e s . A n d y e s m e g a h a s l o s t a p a i r w i t h i n 3 d a y s o f b u y i n g a n e w o n e , b u t f o r $ 5 i t s no big loss . I f they
were real m ega would h a v e b e e n v e r y p i s s e d
The flea m arket mega uses for his supply of Foakleys has for som e reason been targeted by actual O akley employees, and
raided on several occasions. Now the raids are constant, hence no m o r e F o a k l e y s .
M e g a g o e s e very sum m er to get a new style, but this sum mer was bust. The counterfeit dealers have given up. There were
plen ty of im itation O akleys, but no O. The imitations are legal, they have the same style, they are still $5, but not the O a k l e y
branded letter O. It turns out m ega is vain, that O is im portant to him. T h a t O m e a n s s o m e t h i n g , a n d n o O m e a n s m e g a i s
uncomfortable wearing the glasses.
M e g a h a s s e a r c h e d t h e I n t e r n ets tube for counterfeits. There are im itations, there is the real thing , at real prices, but no O for
cheap :(
W o n t s o m e o n e h e l p m e g a o u t ? H e o n l y h a s one pair left and it is slightly dam a g e d . S o m e o n e m u s t k n o w o f a s ource out

t h e r e . M e g a w o n t s p e n d $ 2 0 f o r F o a k l e y s , $ 7 - $ 1 0 i s a b o u t a s high as he will go . Spring is just around the corner. Mega only
g e t s 5 0 s u n n y d a y s a year. That big yellow thin g hurts his eyes, he does not venture into the daylight for tanning, so he is
happy in the knowledge that Foakleys offer dubious UV protection (even cheapos protect from U V t h o u g h ) . M e g a d o e s n o t p l a n
on stopping bullets with his sunglasses either, so the quality iridium coated composite lenses of Oakleys are rather
unnecessary.
Surely som ewhere on the Inte rnet there m ust be an unscrupulous dealer (please contain your laughter at the sarcasm of this
statem ent) who is upfront about his co unterfeit product while still offering it for cheap?
Tom Sawyer February 10th, 2008, 06:03 AM

A couple of links, but you won't find them for $5 online, m ore like $20
http://www.unlim itedreplicas.com /oakley.htm
http://www.sunglassesbox.com /
http://www.great-shades.com / i n d e x . p h p ? P R O D U C T=1068339220&SECTION=REPLICA%20OAKLEYS
Lots m o r e o u t t h e r e u s i n g s e a r c h t e r m " f a k e o a k l e y s "
iHME February 10th, 2008, 10:06 AM

I'd be happy to just find sunglasses with the right specs, having glases is not always fun.
My current glases cost 550eur, I think that thats a hellish sum . The good thing is that I got sungla ses with the right specs for
free with the purchase (about 75eur savings!).
<Rant>
W hy the fuck do coustom personal optics cost so fucking much? Also the anti-reflection ontop of the lences gets fuckd up from
rapid tem p e r a t u r e c h a n g e s , f o r e x a m ple beeing too close to fire . How do you play with fire if you can't be close to it? My last
glases got so fuckd that the were needed to be replaced.
</Rant>
monkeyboy February 17th, 2008, 08:34 PM

<Rant>
W hy the fuck do coustom personal optics cost so fucking much?
</Rant>
Ran across this about a month ago:

" C h e a p g l a s s e s o n t h e internet, as low as $8.00 a pair!
Read this first:

http://www.43folders.com / 2 0 0 7 / 1 1 / 2 9 / a d v e n t u r e s - 4 0 - e y e g l a s s e s
Then this:
http://glassyeyes.blogspot.com /
Make sure you've got this:

http://glassyeyes.blogspot.com /2007/09/illusive-pd-and-how-to-wrangle-yours.html
Then hit the stores:

http://zennioptical.com /cart/hom e . p h p
http://www.eyebuydirect.com/
http://www.optical4less.com/?SSAID=165366
http://www.goggles4u .com/?campaign=SAS
http://www.39dollarglasses.com /index.htm l?coupon_cod e=GE407
I think I'll buy severa l, like this guy sa ys "I used to wear the sam e g l a s s e s f o r 3 - 4 y e a r s b e t w e e n c h a n g e s s o I ? m f i n d i n g i t
incredibly liberating to pick fro m five different sets of glasses ea ch morning. I have a couple fashionable pairs for going out, a
couple understated ones for working and I can even take a chance with a wacky retro fram e if I'm in the m o o d . "
Or m aybe I can finally afford to get som e of those nifty coatings they offer, or prescription safety glasses... with coatings!"

I f i n a l l y a d m i t t e d I n e e d e d g l a s s e s 3 y e a r s a g o a n d w e n t t o t h e o p t o m etrist. I didn't even bother looking at prices when I
picked out m y fram es because I know how m y m ind works; I don't like wearing glasses, I don't like that I have to, so if I felt
even slightly self conscious about how the fram e s l o o k e d, I would never wear them . I have several shirts in m y closet, still with
tags on, that I will never wear because I am un com fortable with the way they look. I had reservations in the store, but I bought
them anyway. It took m e years to realize this about m yself.
I ended up picking out a very stylish frame from the Ha rley Davidson collection. They were very expensive com pared to other
fram es. I went back, after I found the ones I liked, and looked at prices to see if there was som e t h i n g c h e a p e r . I n t h e e n d I
knew I would NEVER wear anything but the pair I liked, so there was no point tryin g to save a little m oney if that savings
m eans I own a useless item never to be used. What's the point in buying the glasses if I will not use them?
I d o n o t h a n d l e m y g l a s s e s , I h a v e n e ver lost m y glasses, I have only m isplaced them once in the last 3 years. They are too
e x p e n s i v e f o r me to let out of m y sigh t, no pun intended. I only wear them to drive and see far away. I do not like people to
s e e m e i n t h e m even t h o u g h I f i n d g l a s s e s o n o t h e r p e ople to be quite distinguishing. I am very self conscious about wearing
glasses to begin with, so it is a trem e n d o u s r e l i e f k n o w i n g I l o o k g o o d w e a r i n g t h e s e g l a s s e s . I f I t h i n k I l o o k g o o d , I feel
g o o d , a n d w h e n I f e e l good I can wear them. I don't think it takes Freud to tell you what aspect of hum an nature that is.
T h o s e g l a s s e s m a k e m e n e r v o u s b e c a use they are expensive. I don't want to go through the same thing with an expensive
p a i r o f s u n g l a s s e s . F o r t h e s a m e r e a s o n s o f m y petty vanity I will not wear just a ny cheapo sunglasses, I want the style I
want. I am fortunate that fake O akleys can be obtained for cheap that look just like the real thing. I am not fortunate in that I
can't obtain them like I once was able.
For glasses I would not get a cheap knockoff or counterfeit because quality construction is im portant for m y accurate vision. I
j u s t u s e s u n g l a s s e s a s a s t y l e accessory, cutting out glare is an added bonus.

I h a v e h a d m y glasses since I was on the 5th grade. I'm grown pretty fond of the m. Also I dare to say that I look b etter with
m y glasses then without. I'm not com pletely blind without them , I just ca n't see pretty far, W ithout glasses I can on ly read if
I'm on a 10-20cm fro m the te xt.
The idea about having glasses for 40 dollars is pretty strange. I probably would g et a bunch of the m a s a b a c k u p . H e c k , I
could get one for every day of the week with the price of m y current glasses.
Even better I could pay 40eur for the optic for the m e a s u r e m ents and then buy the glasses of the web. :)
Edit:Oh, I alm ost forgot, thank you m o n k e y b o y f o r t h e l i n k s .
Silentnite February 22nd, 2008, 02:06 AM

I just droppe d $ 3 0 0 o n m y glasses, and thats with my insurance covering $400. It gets a little old som etim es, but I've had m y
old pair for o ver 4 years. They're scratched to shit and I've soldered the bridge once or twice, and the paint is cracking off, but
d a m nit, they're expensive.
I've tried contacts but I just can't poke m yself in the eye. I hate it. I can't wait to save enough for the surgery, but alas not
covered by insurance. Regret, and woe is m e.
flippy February 29th, 2008, 12:50 AM

It worries m e when one refers to oneself in the third person. But cheap sunglasse s m ake it OK.

T h i s h a s b e e n pretty am using; I can't seem to (at least continually) touch m y eyeball eith er. Howe ver I had an experience with
g l a s s e s t h a t m a d e m e w o n d e r a b o u t p rescriptions. I broke m ine also and didn't have the money to get the fram es I wanted . I
didn 't "need" them in the sense that I could function without the m s o I d id just that. That was about 10 years ago.
After a tim e I received some better insurance, went back to get a new prescription, and get some of the fra m e s I h a d e t c . I
tested better than before: MUC H bette r. I got the glasses on order and all that but it got m e t h i n k i n g a b o u t t h e " a g e n d a "
m any in the Health care industry acquire after a time. Many people don't want to "heal" th e client.
Should not (especially) those in Health care be in the business of putting themselves OU T of business with their client? Many
people in Health care want to perpetuate the illness or disability, etc. This is the height of unethica l behaviour (IMO). This
issue of getting bette r vision without wearing glasses is not unique, I've been told.

A couple of years ago I started using reading g l a s s e s b e c a u s e t h e f o n t s i z e i n
b o o k s , m agazines, newspapers, etc., is increasingly difficult to read without
them. I just bought m y 1 s t p a i r o f s u n g l a s s e s a c o u p l e w e e k s a g o . T h e g l a r e
from that winter sun(so low in the sky) is annoying as hell.
Silentnite March 2nd, 2 008, 11:43 PM

Charles, stupid question but how old are you and what type of vision problem did you have? Farsig htedness corrects itself in
youth after a certain age in most cases. Not an entirely unique happenstance.
***
It worries m e when one refers to oneself in the third person. But cheap sunglasse s m ake it OK.
Is it any different then nam ing yourself something diffe rent then your real nam e and not capitalizing the first letter? Either one
could be considered a psychosis of a sort, or it could be nothing at all. More then likely it's a uniqu e way to tell a story.
Bob The 1st March 4th, 2008, 01:27 AM

As a form er wearer of glasses, I can em phasize with you about that. I made the switch to contacts several years ago, and
really couldn't be hap pier. I, like Mega , was very self conscious about how I looked wearing glasses.
As for O akleys, I save one real pair for special occasions. Had them for years. But I've got a few pairs of fa kes for everyday
use :)
And as for surgery, I'll have the m oney for it within the year. Thank god. Contacts are good, but they still h ave their
drawbacks.

I have nearly 50 pairs of sunglasses, all of them cheapies, well, I do have a 400 dollar pair of O liver Peoples and a few nam e
brand 200 dollar sets, but I never wear them . I am not rich enough to not care if I lose or dam a g e t h e m .
Mega, a word of advice, stop trying to use consum er products to define who you are. :p
Also, laser eye surgery is cheap and quite effective, why buy prescription glasses when you can get the problem fixed for only a
few hundred more.
Barnacles March 13th, 2008, 04:56 PM

Also, laser eye surgery is cheap and quite effective, why buy prescription glasses when you can get the problem fixed for only a
few hundred more.
not everything is treatable by laser surgery. My grandfather has macular degeneration. he cannot get it, also m y un cle has
s o m e thing called m yopia or something along those lines, and laser eye surgery is also not an option. Both are slowly going
blind.
monkeyboy April 17th, 2008, 02:08 AM

Just bought a pair of the $8 glasses for my tee nager. She says they're perfect...
I had previously done a little further research a bout it, though. It seems that m ost optometrists purchase their glasses from a
h a n d f u l o f p l a c e s . T h e i r m a r k - u p i s a s t r o n o m ical. These are not "knock-offs or counterfeits" they're just direct from the
m anufacturer.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Breaking Bad
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View Full Version : Breaking Bad

Anyone w atching this rather new series on AMC?
X-Files writer Vince Gilligan's offering. It's about a high school chem teacher w ho is diagnosed with lung cancer. He decides to become a meth cook in order to make sure his
family is financially stable after he's gone.
I really enjoy it. Edgy humor w ith devilish sarcasm...
;)

I have watched all three episodes so far and enjoy it.
I am not very chemically sophisticated. :o
I was wondering how accurate are the procedures in the show ?

I heard them interview ing the lead actor on NPR last week (the father from Malcolm in the Middle, whatever his name is), I was going to download the show and see if it is
good.
By the way, I edited the title of this thread, the show title is "Breaking Bad."

I have no idea what I titled it, Mega. Old age and senility, I guess.
What did I call it? "I want to see the w oman from 'Deadwood' naked"?
I think his wife is the actress from 'Deadwood' who was the Sheriff's wife. ;)
Hinckleyforpresident February 14th, 2008, 06:38 PM

Breaking bad is now one of my favorite show s, just behind doctor who :).

The only one from Deadw ood I want to see naked is little missy Veronica Mars, Kristen Bell. She was a guest in two episodes w here she and her "brother" w ere pretending to be
naive kids run aw ay from home, but w ere actually planning a con. I loved that line of hers w hen she was talking about being a prostitute. "Them as wants to put it in me." Oh
what sexy terrible grammar, and I am one of them as wants :)
I saw Hitman last week and I didn't even recognize Timothy Olyphant without the beard and hat.
Joanie Stubbs played a conwoman on Lost last season as I recall. Oh the terror of being typecast.
I watched an episode of The Unit yesterday, w here a fiancee of a killed soldier had to fight for his kids since she technically was not the wife. I knew I remembered her from
somew here, now I just saw her picture from deadwood, she was that calamity Jane chick.
None of this has anything to do w ith Breaking Bad...

Sounds interesting, I'll add it to my large usenet que :)

Anyone w ho hasn't seen it, give it a look tonight, at 10 eastern on AMC.
I dunno, I've always been a bit of an oddball vis a vis television series. I enjoyed the 70's version of "The Night Stalker" (Darren McGavin), "The X-Files", "Dark Shadow s", etc.
Of late, only "The Soprano's" and "Deadwood" have caught my attention, until this.
Then again even my feature films list would seem odd to some. Favorite film is "Det sjunde inseglet" (The Seventh Seal). Oh w ell...
Kaydon February 22nd, 2008, 11:11 PM

I may give it a go on the torrent. Sounds interesting.
Mega, I thought Hitman was horrible. What was your opinion? I couldn't even finish the movie.
Speaking of television shows though.. Rescue Me and The Shield are by far my favorite.
I never saw Deadwood.
Silentnite February 22nd, 2008, 11:47 PM

I really like Rescue Me, but I can't beat House. I know its predictable and the same thing every show , but I like to think I learn a bit about solving outside the box sometimes.
Scrubs comes next because I love comedy's.
A0tu February 24th, 2008, 06:17 PM

For those of you who are too lazy to download it, You can watch it online at:
http://ww w.amctv.com/videos/breakingbad/
Kind of AMC to put it up for us eh ;) !
++ ++++ +++
The video was not viewable from my current location, if anyone experiences similar difficulties, let me know - totenkov

I caught episode 4 on AMC and downloaded the other three, not a bad show, but as an aside, the Hydrofloric acid used to deslove the body, and the tub and the floor and ...
well you saw it (mmmmmm, body soup!), the chemist character said the acid w ouldn't eat through certain plastics, my question is what plastic?
I was thinking that a plastic "water" baloon filled w ith the acid might be an interesting alternative to home made grenades in situations like riots, etc, so is this possible?
A0tu February 24th, 2008, 07:15 PM

Ah a friend of mine just informed me of that as well! It seems weird as I am connecting from Ireland. There seem to be videos here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-150025064304279448&q= breaking+bad&total=8987&start= 0&num= 10&so= 0&type=search&plindex=6

Looks like we will be back in the lab next episode :)
Barnacles February 25th, 2008, 08:12 PM
, the chemist character said the acid w ouldn't eat through certain plastics, my question is what plastic?
I am pretty sure teflon is resistant, and HDPE to some degree, Teflon is the most resistant material on earth as far as chemicals go from what I heard. I bought one of those
500$ teflon 2 liter bottles (got it for 40$, they are 450$ brand new) and to clean it you are suppose to boil nitric acid in it, or sulphuric cant rememeber. Dont take anything I
said as gold and risk anything on it, just look at it as a starting point to find the answ er to your question. The HDPE I remember reading in the forum here about it being second
best to teflon for storing Strong bases such as sodium or ammonium hydroxide.
The bottles theres a deal here (2) 64 oz bottles for 420$
http://ww w.ecofunnels.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=EF&Product_Code=NG-1600-64
a3990918 February 25th, 2008, 08:57 PM

I heard them interview ing the lead actor on NPR last week (the father from Malcolm in the Middle, whatever his name is),
I believe his name is Bryan Cranston...

I just finished watching every episode of The Unit this Saturday after starting 2 weeks ago. I downloaded all the episodes months ago, and I had not seen an episode until I
started watching my downloads. The producer of the Unit, Shawn Ryan, is the same guy who did the Shield. That explains the mention of the Biz-Lats in one of season 3's
episodes.
I have not finished downloading all the Breaking Bad episodes yet. If it is good, I like to watch an entire season at a time. I love heckling the "previously on ..." part because
previously for me was likely just minutes ago. Sometimes I get caught up in these show s because I want to know w hat happens next, so I watch another episode, and another,
instead of getting work done or going to bed.
Watching TV this way sure beats live. The average TV show w ith commercials deleted is only 40 minutes. I tend to pick up on more details and inside jokes watching an entire
season over a period of a week or tw o. I remember the quip about the ducks in the Sopranos in seasons 3 and 4. The ducks were shown in one episode, the pilot, and they
make a comment 4-5 years later... I watched all five seasons (at the time) back to back. That's quality TV :)
I thought Hitman had beautiful visuals, stunning camera angles, w ell designed costumes, impressive special effects not too over the top, and a catchy music score. The plot
didn't leave much to be impressed about, but I knew going in this would be an eye candy movie. I liked the movie for aesthetic reasons, I must have an Armani suit like that
now.
They went all out on the details in Hitman, they just skimped on the script. I doubt I would ever watch it again.
Yesterday I watched 3:10 to Yuma. Now that was a spectacular movie. For some reason I thought this was a foreign film, so I have been putting off watching it. It is at the top
of my file list alphabetically (right after 300) so I w atched it because it was convenient to click on. I am glad I did.
Speaking of 300, the reason I still have it on my drive is because that is a movie I w ould watch again. In fact the day after I first watched it I watched it again.
You should know I have about 150-200 movies on my hard drive. I download almost every feature film release that comes out. I watch a movie every day while eating dinner,
and idly w hile surfing the net. For me to w atch a movie a second time means there is another movie I w ill probably never get to see. I have not given my computer or modem
a rest in over 2 years now. To my friends and family I am a living movie critic, I tailor my suggestions to people based on w hat I think they would like.
If I can't stand a movie I will turn it off. No sense in w asting my time when I have so many others to watch. Some movies I only half pay attention to if they don't rivit my
attention.
Today's movie was Atonement. It started off a little slow, rather artsy fartsy, but then it got better about 2/3rd's of the way through. I also watched half of Michael Clayton until
I needed 100% of my attention for other tasks. So far it is quite tame. A big law suit, scuzzy lawyers, an attack of conscience... this is a little close to real life; movies are
supposed to be an escape from reality.
I was going to watch Across the Universe... violation of the megalomania musical prohibition mandate of 1985. I watched a whole 3 minutes before I closed that crapfest. Just
last week I watched the Demon Barber of Fleet Street. Now that was a very good movie. The first and only musical I have ever liked. I even grabbed the soundtrack. You are
young, life has been kind to you - you will learn :)
JohnG February 26th, 2008, 10:45 AM

Hirudinea,
I have a liter bottle of 49% HF, it came in a nalgene style polypropylene bottle. With a few experiments it eats glass very readily, I am not sure if it would eat through a tub
though. As for the balloon idea, forget it. I can't imagine trying to fill it up, let alone tie the balloon (yikes). That stuff is disturbingly dangerous.
Mega,
I have a similar trait in dow nloading and w atching an entire season of a show rather than watch it on TV with the commercials. My latest was Dexter seasons 1&2 (which I
throughly enjoyed), thank you for recommending it in a previous post.

Hirudinea,
I have a liter bottle of 49% HF, it came in a nalgene style polypropylene bottle. As for the balloon idea, forget it. I can't imagine trying to fill it up, let alone tie the balloon
(yikes). That stuff is disturbingly dangerous.
Just idle thought, and I did think that it would be dangerous to make, but you have to go through a gross of bad ideas until you come up with a good one.
You should know I have about 150-200 movies on my hard drive. I download almost every feature film release that comes out.
Every movie I download I copy to DVD or CD as soon as I can, you just can't compare w atching a movie on a computer to a big screen TV (even the crappy 32" CRT I have. :)
)
iHME February 27th, 2008, 05:42 PM

I think I like this show. In fact it is the first non-anime show for me to download in the last tw o years. Even though I have a 160gb hdd I just never seem to have the space for
+1gb files.
a3990918 February 27th, 2008, 07:28 PM

I don't have AMC so I will have to download this from the NET.
I also dow nload a ton of movies and series, prefering to w atch several episodes in a single sitting than to catch one every week or so.

I have my computer S-video output connected to the TV, although after my last video card update this xmas it refuses to acknowledge the TV's existence. I find burning DVD's
wasteful for TV shows and movies unless you use a RW disk. I find it extremely irresponsible to ever buy a retail movie or TV season from the store, this is a complete and utter
waste of money unless you so love the program that you will watch it over and over. No one ever really gets their monies w orth spending $30 for a stupid show they w ill watch
once!

If FTP users are interested, I'll produce .AVI and .RV copies of the series as
I've recorded every episode so far. The series is interesting in that Walter
and Jesse are experiencing Murphy's Law - that anything that can go wrong -
WILL ! I like this aspect of the series. So much like real life but in a different
venue. This makes the show that much more interesting. I just wish the
producers wouldn't "bleep" out some of the language. This may be an
enticement to buy the DVD series later on.
Oh, FUCK IT ! I'll just put it up on the FTP anyway ! Just need the time to
do it ! :D When I do, just look for it in the VIDEO subdirectory. Make sure
you fast forward through the first 16 minutes of the video though. I learned
through painful experience to allow some lead time on DVD recordings.
If I can manage to get it up on RapidShit I'll do that also and provide the
necessary links. FTP still gets the 1st upload though !

Or you could always nab them off your favorite p2p netw ork or good old usenet :)
This happens to be one of my favorite shows, I guess I can sort of connect w ith the main character.

I have my computer S-video output connected to the TV... I find burning DVD's w asteful for TV shows and movies unless you use a RW disk. I find it extremely irresponsible to
ever buy a retail movie or TV season from the store... No one ever really gets their monies w orth spending $30 for a stupid show they w ill watch once!
Well I guess w e're just different. Although I would never BUY a series from a store, I will rent it and copy it, and I do like to watch some stuff more than once, I have about 500
DVDs of documentaries (love'em), movies and tv shows. Also putting videos on DVD (or VCD, or AVI on DVD) saves space on my HD and if I w ant to give a video to a friend,
well its there on DVD, I just pull it out of the case. Hey at $.20 or less a DVD its w orth it to me.
Hinckleyforpresident March 3rd, 2008, 12:27 AM

Just saw episode 6 and: Hell yeah! He's into HE now too.
Simply the best show on.
tmp March 3rd, 2008, 06:07 AM

Hinckley, I had to record the episode and watch it later but was it ever w orth
it ! Walt may not be the perfect "criminal" but I laughed my balls off when he
demonstrated impact and friction sensitivity of primary explosives to a shitbag
robber ! :D:D:D
ChippedHammer March 3rd, 2008, 10:56 PM

Dammit, cannot find S01E06 out there, looks like a scene group missed it :(

I watched the first three episodes. This show is wonderful, hilarious. I got a big chuckle out of the lecture he gave to the druggy about not using volumetric flasks to heat things
in, you need to use a round bottom flask. I was thinking the same exact thing before he said that :D
I will be putting this clip on the website somew here. Episode 2, about 24:13 in...
Look, you skipped, clowned around, or otherw ise jerked off through every lecture I ever gave. As far as I'm concerned your chemistry education is over.
Season 6 is up and running, it came out yesterday. http://ww w.mininova.org/tor/1217008
SafetyLast March 6th, 2008, 05:27 PM

This is truly an excellent show, I watch it near religiously. It's so dark and clever.
The hydrofluoric acid bit with the human goo raining dow n from the ceiling w as outrageously
hilarious. Step aside Bill Nye, Walter White is my new idol. The end of the last episode was great as well. Never seen Hg fulminate like that before though, what do you suppose
he was implying by "a few tweaks of chemistry"?
thelasttrueone March 6th, 2008, 06:50 PM

I love this show. It is the only thing that I watch on tv. Oh and the mercury fulminate part made me go "rogusci is gonna have a field day w ith this". One inconsistincy I noticed,
the round bottom flask turned into a flat bottom flask when he showed it to his stoner friend.

Another error, on the chalkboard during the beginning, the chemical formula NO w as labeled nitric acid... Oops.
That explosion was far too powerful for the crystal he was seen throw ing to the ground. If it was powerful enough to blow out the windows and send debris into the street, it
was likely powerful enough to detonate the rest of the bag of mercury fulminate.
Why oh why mercury? Silver fulminate would be less toxic, not that Walter cares about that :)
Episode 7, the season finale, is this Sunday. I hate it when good shows only have an abbreviated number of shows. Maybe this has something to do w ith the w riters strike.
Hinckleyforpresident March 7th, 2008, 05:03 PM

Episode 7, the season finale, is this Sunday. I hate it when good shows only have an abbreviated number of shows. Maybe this has something to do w ith the w riters strike.
I hate it too. And yes, it was caused by the writers strike. IIRC there were supposed to be 12 episodes this season, they only got through writing 7. Arg :mad:.
ChippedHammer March 9th, 2008, 03:27 AM

So what happens after that?
Hopefully they give it another season...
Mike123 March 9th, 2008, 08:11 PM

I hate show s that I can pick apart. My father in law turned me on to Breaking Bad and I really liked it. I do not have the knowledge of chemistry to spot problems in what was
going on, but at the beginning of the first episode, after he crashed the motor home, he stands out in the middle of the road waiting for the cops w hile pointing a S&W auto of
some sort in that general direction. The first thing I noticed w as the de-cocker was on. I thought, here w e go. Then he pointed the gun under his chin like he was going to
commit suicide and pulled the trigger. Nothing, not even the stereotypicaly amplified click. I really appreciate that kind of attention to detail.

E07 w as pretty damn good. I though it w as pretty funny w hen they stole the drum of methylidyne(?) and they had to lug the bastard out of there.

http://blogs.amctv.com/breaking-bad/2008/03/live-chat-with.php
Interesting interview, sounds like w e w ill be getting another season :)
tmp March 10th, 2008, 02:43 PM

I will w atch it at work tonight. Had to record it for later viewing. On a side
note, I think the .AVI encoder I'm using lost its fucking mind. It keeps putting
out 4 GB length files which doesn't make any sense. Once that's straightened
out the Breaking Bad episodes will be on the FTP.
a3990918 March 10th, 2008, 05:21 PM

I downloaded all 7 epis last night. Plan on watching them all on Tues or Weds night...:)

Why oh why mercury? Silver fulminate would be less toxic, not that Walter cares about that :)
Walter wouldn't have made it to the meet carrying a bag of dry Silver fulminate...
Hang-Man March 23rd, 2008, 02:17 AM

the chemist character said the acid wouldn't eat through certain plastics, my question is what plastic?
I was thinking that a plastic "water" baloon filled w ith the acid might be an interesting alternative to home made grenades in situations like riots, etc, so is this possible?
A lab buddy of mine used to w ork in an HF plant and they used teflon body suits when there was a 'spill', however they were only rated safe for 45 minutes iirc. (aside: they
made 'spill kits' w ith everything they needed in a tool box, locked it and threw away the key. The only w ay to get in being smashing it open w ith a wrench. That way you knew
nobody took anything out of it when you grabbed one :eek:)
I'm 90% sure the stuff we have is in polyethylene bottles but its not that concentrated. It increases in reactivity non-linearly with concentration so teflon containers are probably
required for the conc stuff. No dice on the balloon idea, the stuff w ill literally kill you if you spill it on your skin, hypocalcemia, insoluble florides in the blood etc.
As for Breaking Bad, up there with Dexter for my favorite drama but behind Arrested Development for my favorite overall show. ;)

DAMN YOU!
I figured I'd w atch the first episode & see what all the fuss was about.
I just w atched the first 5 episodes.
Wow, good stuff.
Anybody still looking for it?
Install the streamplug player:http://w ww.cedelia.com/

Then go to messagefromme.com for the episodes:
http://messagefromme.com/message-BreakingBadS01E01-16037
Dexter is also really good. Although sometimes when he does the voice in his head, he hits a little close to home...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Copying Banknotes
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dinkydexy February 15th, 2008, 08:17 PM

i think most of us have tried it at some point and discovered it's not possible...digital watermarks etc etc.
This thread is not to be a discussion about how the powers that be manage to pull off this neat little trick, it's intended to be place where people who've managed to defeat the
embedded security systems in most modern banknotes share their 'how to' knowledege w ith the rest of us plebs.
So...

It is most unlikely that even the most recent scanners and laser and inkjet printers could have caught up with, and thereby prevent the copying of, ALL current banknotes of ALL
major countries whose currencies are easily negotiable.
dinkydexy February 16th, 2008, 01:05 PM

Thanks Bugger, I'll try that method. Can't see it w orking, though.

And note, most US bills have red thread inside of them as an anti-counterfeit measure ($100's at least), and obviously the images in between the paper would be difficult to
procure. If you were to duplicate bills, you would need a pretty sophisticated setup in my opinion to get everything right.

Years ago there w as a Canon copier that some folks made some ones & fives on that passed through change machines at various DIY car washes in the SW USA.
But the point of the exercise w as NOT copying currency ...but checks! AlJazeera got hit for small fortune with this scam some time back. The story was interesting & very funny
but sounds like it could not be done anymore.
Enkidu February 18th, 2008, 03:04 AM

Has anyone actually handled counterfeit currency before? I have some friends who have... but I, myself, have not.
How common do you think counterfeit currency is in the 'underground' networks, like organized crime rings, drug rings, smuggling operations, etc? Obviously, it's in greater
concentration there, and, I imagine, that's where the proliferation of counterfeit currency to legit business and to other individuals who are outside of the organized crime rings
begins. I always see the 'No bills larger than $20 after 3:00 PM' signs in legit businesses, and I wonder just how common counterfeit currency is...

Call me stupid, but I've never understood counterfeiting currency larger then $20. Although you get lazy cashiers from time to time, its almost always checked. And they're
almost all new and the old ones have been phased out pretty quickly. Now, as to $5 & $10 bills. How often do you pay attention to those? I've gotten $5 bills that felt like tissue
paper just due to the fact it was 15+ years old.
I can tell you though, Kinko's frow ns on you copying money in their stores. I got some pretty dirty looks. Even though it was on a research paper on counterfeiting.

Sometime in the 1970s or 1980s, the East German Secret Police (STASI) made a series of printing-plates, along w ith reproduction banknote paper, for counterfeiting U$
banknotes, mostly high denominations. The counterfeits, called "super-bills", were so good that they were undetectable by any of the regular means for detecting counterfeit U$
banknotes. They sold either finished counterfeit banknotes, or the printing-plates and paper, to the revolutionary Iranian Government in the 1980s, which released billions of
dollar$ worth of them into circulation. They are believed to be still almost all in circulation.
I have heard of counterfeit U$ banknotes being used in drug deals, to buy the drugs, safe in the knowledge that the ripped-off drug sellers could not possibly complain to the
Pigs when they eventually found out that the notes w ere fakes. I heard of one case of a drug deal in Florida some years ago, in which counterfeit banknotes w ere exchanged
for fake drugs! - both parties were nabbed by the Pigs, who had been spying on them.
Enkidu March 1st, 2008, 04:34 PM

*Bump*
This thread is again open.
FU TI March 3rd, 2008, 01:46 PM

I have read some news recently about some kids in east Europe that make banknotes (I hope local currency not $ or euro) using good color printer and I guess scanner. My
guess is that they work a lot experiments on that one with photo processing software and naturally lot of trial and error routine to get the right printout from the printer cartridge
they used. Fun part they used the money to buy themselves the candies, ice-creams and kids stuff until someone get suspicious. I'm curious w ould they spank their asses since
they most likely can't put them to jail due to the fact they are minors , or would they give them the job in some three letter agency? Advanced are the youth of today...;-)
Mr Science March 3rd, 2008, 02:46 PM

Asides from giving people money physically, I know vending machines and other related devices are relatively easy to fool.
I remember back w hen I was in middle school, there were a few students who used a normal copy machine to duplicate $1 bills, and used this to buy whatever from the
vending machines. Of course, they didn't keep this a secret, and w ord quickly got to teachers, who confirmed this w hen someone opened up the machines to indeed discover
some 'bills' were just copied pieces of paper. I remember hearing afterwards that the local police got involved, and even the FBI visited their house at some point to talk with
them, but they never did get in trouble legally, most likely because they were ~ 14 year olds.
So from that, I can imagine it still being relatively easy to duplicate money (only for vending machines, obviously physically handing someone the fake money would be a
different story). I do w onder what change machines scan on larger $5/10 bills, w hich validates them as legitimate money...
Silentnite March 3rd, 2008, 06:31 PM

There's an old thread on this, talking about how far in a machine reads a bill before it just accepts it. About an inch or so dow n.
JohnG March 5th, 2008, 06:52 PM

Well finally a post I can make a significant contribution to!
Years ago (1994-5) SWIM was into counterfeiting. SWIM managed to pass 20's (US) with only one major scare. SWIM used a PC and color laser printer (unbelievably expensive
at the time). Paper was 20lb w eight 25% cotton by Crane Co., no water mark.(Coincidently they make the paper for US money). I the put it in a dryer with some media to
give it a used/beat up appearance. Pre-1993 series bills didn't have many of the security features there are now .
The main problem is the feel. US bill use intaglio printing, (which is high impact) that give it it's distinctive feel. Today you must also consider there is a watermark, and the
security thread. The little red & blue threads are cotton threads w ithin the paper, they were put there to detect counterfeits decades ago.
SWIM quit after my one scare, and went on to counterfeiting fake id's for a couple of years.
Several thing to consider (for US money):
1. Bills are magnetic. This is one check for most vending machines. There are experiments you can do to show this trait.
2. UV light. Try putting a bill under a UV light, you'll see that it fluoresces. Then try a bill that went through the w ash, and it doesn't.
3. The pen test. I believe it is an iodine pen, that reacts with a chemical in the paper. (it also washes out).
4. Do not use a inkjet printer! The ink will bleed when wet. (A bit of a concern if you or the person you are passing it to has sweaty hands).
5. The security thread. When bills were first introduced w ith the thread people would bleach off a $5 and then print a $20 (or $50,$100) onto the legit paper. When this came to
light they moved the thread around for each different bill.
Nowadays people are a bit more knowledgeable about money. Many stores use the pen. You see in the news teens trying to pass fake bills at school, etc. Also many printers
will print a hidden "code" on every document (there is a thread about that).
Enkidu,
The sign "no bills larger than..." isn't typically to foil counterfeiting, but to prevent major loss due to a burglary. Not needing to have change in the register to break a fifty or a
hundred cuts dow n on money in the register. Many small stores have a drop safe near the register, so the cashier can safely put away excess money.

Years ago (1994-5) I was into counterfeiting.
The main problem is the feel. US bill use intaglio printing, (which is high impact) that give it it's distinctive feel. Today you must also consider there is a watermark, and the
security thread. The little red & blue threads are cotton threads w ithin the paper, they were put there to detect counterfeits decades ago.
Several thing to consider (for US money):
1. Bills are magnetic. This is one check for most vending machines. There are experiments you can do to show this trait.
Could this be simulated by putting some iron pow der into the black toner in the colour laser printer?
2. UV light. Try putting a bill under a UV light, you'll see that it fluoresces. Then try a bill that went through the w ash, and it doesn't.
3. The pen test. I believe it is an iodine pen, that reacts with a chemical in the paper. (it also washes out).
Would a chemical treatment before printing be able to simulate these two effects?
5. The security thread. When bills were first introduced w ith the thread people would bleach off a $5 and then print a $20 (or $50,$100) onto the legit paper. When this came to
light they moved the thread around for each different bill.
Could you simulate this gluing a strip between two thin pieces of paper, to form one piece, before printing, or do you it would be possible to make your ow n paper?
Nowadays people are a bit more knowledgeable about money. Many stores use the pen.
The UV lights are very popular here, but I suspect if a bill looks good, and passes the pen or ultraviolet test (faked) that most cashiers would take it, especially if they're busy.
Demolition Man March 31st, 2008, 12:15 PM

SWIM got arrested by the Secret Service around 2000, for counterfeiting $ 10s. What JohnG says is mostly true for SWIM as well, but SWIM took the easier route: Use them to
get back change, not to buy things. SWIM had a little cadre spend the $10s on some candy, and get back real cash in return.
The downfall was when one of the bills melted (heavy bond paper too!) after being dropped in a wet spot on the counter of a convenience store. The charges were eventually
dropped and SWIM was given community service, but since then, SWIM has been able to hold a professional license, buy firearms, and vote, for what good that does.
++ ++++ +++ ++++ +++ ++
I've edited your post with SWIM (someone who isn't me) see that you use it in the future.
-totenkov
Jefferson Davis April 18th, 2008, 07:38 AM

Im new here but figured I would toss a few of my ideas towards this discussion. Ive never tried any of these ideas mentioned except when I comment on making paper as a
teen..
Anyways w hen I was a teen in art class we made our own paper for a few projects. It was 50% cotton blend that once dried held up nice if you used the correct binders. So
since the currency paper is a cotton base w ould it not be easier for a person to make the paper themselves? ( The cotton pulps can be purchased over the internet from many
sources.)
And considering water marking is just a old printer trick. I would think using embossed copper screens w ith the design to make the paper thicker in some spots than others
causing the design to show when held to light. This has to be done while the paper is still wet. Usually during the pressing.
I would also think that the color threads in the paper could be added as well during the first pulp mixing.
UV dyes can be added as well to give that nice bluish glow and are sold all over the internet.
The hard part is fooling the pen since its the most widely used. But I do know from my days as a store clerk the detection pens do not change color when w riting on new
papers. So I assume it is some chemical treatment the new print is given to help hold the ink.
Anyways these are just a few ideas I figured I would toss into the mix.
****************
Use [better] punctuation next time.
-Hinckleyforpresident

Recently had the pleasure of taking apart a bill acceptor.
VERY interesting.
It has three sensors in it. two of them are just cassette tape heads to read the pattern of the magnetic ink. The third is a small ccd (pretty sure it's monochrome, not enough
circuitry there for color), less than a 1/4" in diameter. It is dead center in the bill & does not move, just taking a picture of a thin line up the middle of the bill. The mag heads
also do not move, just taking a magnetic image stripe (I would think also less than a 1/4" wide) about an inch either side of center.
Counterfeit detector pens are just looking for starch:

James Randi explains what they are
http://ww w.randi.org/jr/120304youve.html# 1
A reader tests it out by getting caught with a starched bill

http://ww w.randi.org/jr/070105quality.html# 7
ChippedHammer April 19th, 2008, 09:01 AM

Our money (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_20_dollar_note) is much harder to counterfeit, the combination of being made of polypropylene and being printed in high
resolution color makes it next to impossible to make a decent fake. Every fake not I have seen was easily identified by taking more than a quick glance at it.
It w ouldn't surprise me if the USA heads down this path in a few years, maybe they can tie it in w ith going metric and getting rid of their other bastardized standards :)
Hirudinea April 19th, 2008, 06:04 PM

Recently had the pleasure of taking apart a bill acceptor.
VERY interesting.
Sounds like it could be spoofed easily enough.
Counterfeit detector pens are just looking for starch:

James Randi explains what they are
Then just find a paper that dosn't react with iodine (yes, thats what they said is in the pens) and you can print bills to your heart content.
Our money (Australian) is much harder to counterfeit, the combination of being made of polypropylene and being printed in high resolution color...
Yea I think it would be a good idea to go with "plastic" money here too, but haven't some people had alergic reactions to the money?
It w ouldn't surprise me if the USA heads down this path in a few years, maybe they can tie it in w ith going metric and getting rid of their other bastardized standards
Piss on metric! To quote Grandpa Simpson "The metric system is a tool of the devil, my car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and thats the way I like it!"
monkeyboy April 19th, 2008, 10:05 PM

Piss on metric! To quote Grandpa Simpson "The metric system is a tool of the devil, my car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and thats the way I like it!"
It, along w ith stinky cheese & the fine art of surrender, w as invented by the French. 'Nuff said...

To bad you are already using it, w hen was the last time you measured something for a synth in ounces, grains or fluid ounce's?
mike-hunt April 20th, 2008, 03:25 AM

This thread has got me thinking about the poker machines we have here in Australia in almost every pub and club they except all our notes and the ones in smaller pubs w ithout
security cameras might be ideal for passing counterfeit currency unless the machines have there own cameras like in an A.T.M. . It would be interesting to find out what type of
sensors the bill readers have and any other type of security features of the machines .I love the idea of stealing from poker machines but as a good law abiding citizen wouldn't
try it myself.
Rasputin May 3rd, 2008, 08:37 AM

I am not at all an expert in this field, but, it seems to me that forged banknotes w ould have the most success w hen used on some type of automatic bill reader.
As far as trying to pass them to a physical person goes, that's a different story. Yes its possible, although i'd think that the experience of the clerk w ho is accepting the
(pseudo)currency is a big factor. If you were talking about a potential operation to make a good profit on, one would have to make HIGH quality replicas.
Also as far as the risk factor goes, at least in the United States, counterfeit currency can get the secret service really upset.
I, personally, w ould prefer to try some other type of financial instrument, i.e. money orders, cashier's checks, traveler's checks, or even some type of privately issued voucher of
some sort... now that i think about it, that could have some possibilities.
ChippedHammer May 4th, 2008, 12:31 AM

Vouchers are good, I remember a book store around here used photocopied vouchers with a quick squiggle on them to act as a signature to say that they w ere valid.
A little blue squiggle is not to hard to forge :)
Most stores now have card based systems, the cards act like credit cards. Those are not hard to forge, all you need is a basic card printer, suitable media (not hard to find) and
a card reader writer (even easier to find)
mike-hunt May 4th, 2008, 03:11 AM

Counterfeiting gift cards would be a great scam if simply copying the card is all that is needed .I have heard of this being done w ith credit cards but the fact that there are so
many different gift cards and I don't remember one news story of this being done leads me to believe they have some inbuilt security. My local grocery has gift cards sitting on
the counter like a deck of cards so I am guessing they are activated by a card w riter at the check out. If I w as designing the security for these cards I w ould have a 50 digit
random number written onto the card when activated with the cards value and the number kept on the stores secure server. that said numbers from a computerized random
number generator are not truly random but the result of complex mathematical algorithms so by purchasing several cards at the same time it may be possible to work out the
algorithm w ith some complex software and calculate the next numbers in the sequence . I may be well of track with this other than to say it sounds like a job for a mathematics
and computer genius that properly already earns so much he has no use for such a scam.
Emil May 4th, 2008, 07:38 AM

Somewhere, lurking amongst the depths of the forum there w as another similar thread to this one I saw a few months back, but I don't think I thoroughly read it.
Like Rasputin said, an automatic bill reader is really w hat you are looking to fool in this scenario. The risk is much less, and to be dealing in any significant ammount of money in
person, is going to mean a more bonafide check of the bill. In other words, the clerk at the bank is much more likely to be doing a thorough check, than the 15 year old kid
working down at your local shop.
One of the things mentioned before in the other thread w as the change machine located at the arcades. These take your bills and change them for smaller coin currency. My
question is, does anyone know how sophisticated these things are, and w hat they look for when "reading" your note??
I mean some of these machines around look pretty damn old which could provide a better result to maybe a newer type. The good thing is they are alw ays stashed in all places
around the arcade, some even out of the eyes of the the ticket booth workers.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Rogue Science DVD...
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Red Beret February 17th, 2008, 05:49 AM

Since there will be no nbk2000 DVD, I think it would be a great idea to start work on a "Rogue science" DVD.
I don't know if anyone has any of the material that nbk was planning on putting on his DVD, but if any of it is available, we
should put it on the DVD. We could make it in honour of the beast.
Just to throw some ideas around, things we could include;
Complete range of media (video, pdf, jpeg etc)

The FTP book content
All Books/manuals/videos divided into sections like the forum,
Prototype weapons section,
Things that may be in the works could be worked on and added,
Focus on OTC methods, like nbk's OTC mustard gas,
Tactics (inc. defensive driving),
Forced entry,
Survival,
Other things that nbk would have added such as body disposal etc,
Any and all "gems" of information,
A section on members synth methods, advice, tips, stories from members,
Hand to hand combat and hand to hand weapons,
Reviews on particular brands of bought weapons ie; stun guns, cattle prods, defensive sprays, guns, martial arts weapons/
knives.
We could possibly do a two disc set, and make it the absolute best and biggest E&W publication in existence. By charging a
decent (but fair and affordable) price, we could use funds to support roguesci and keep dick head kewls out.
I think as a precaution we should be prepared for the fact that the forum and FTP may be shut down by government agents,
and distributing a DVD would help in the distribution of good information.
As an advanced warning, there should be NO SUPPLIERS LISTED. This is obvious to most, I know, but a couple of OZ suppliers
have been listed in the past and ceased sales on certain things.
I would be happy to donate as many DVDs as I can, so lets shoot some ideas around, and hopefully get this project underway,
the greatest E&W project in existence!
parmegianno February 17th, 2008, 07:07 AM

I do still have some files on my hard disk NBK sent me several years ago. I had a quick look at it, here's what it is:
Something about linear shaped charges, probably nothing unique.

A part of a book about gemology which he had scanned in order to include into his DVD. It's about gold an platinum.
One thing which should really be unique, also for his DVD: 30 pages which he wrote about bank and armored car robbery. He
sent me this to look for weaknesses and little errors. I found a few things, but it'll give you some interesting notions about the
subject.
Do we still have a forum FTP? If so, just give me an account and I'll upload it.

The FTP has about 130gb of information. And even my personal ebook collection is about 20gb and that would require a quite
few dvd's.

The FTP has about 130gb of information. And even my personal ebook collection is about 20gb...
Well Blu-Ray writers should be comming out soon, even 130gb would be only 3 of those discs.
Enkidu February 17th, 2008, 09:48 PM

Even so, there are lots of duplicate files on the FTP. Without the HUGE pdfs, software, or videos, I bet you could get
reasonable close to an 'essentials' DVD or, for sure, an essentials BluRay.
Rbick February 17th, 2008, 11:33 PM

Perhaps if we organize what we want on the DVD and then split each section and assign it to an individual, we could make the
process quick and easy. For instance, I would be more than happy to compile videos to be put on the DVD while someone else
handles OTC materials. Let me know what you guys think and we can make a plan and make it happen. It is was nkb would
want and expect of us :)

I'm quasi-certain that if we were to produce a dvd, it'd be best to turn it into several .iso's to burn. Charge for the access link.
But we should go through the FTP to weed out doubles, even still it's going to be many, many, many dvd's. Blu-ray is out of
the question as such a small portion of the populace would have it currently. When it becomes as pervasive as the common
vcr/dvd player then fine. But most Blu-ray writer's are still in the 1k bracket.
Tom Sawyer February 18th, 2008, 12:21 AM

Even so, there are lots of duplicate files on the FTP.
Yes there are. I found a torrent for a bit of software I have been planning to use on my own file storage systems -
http://noclone.net/
I'll evaluate it and if it works as advertised, I'll upload it to thesoftware folder on TMP's FTP
Red Beret February 18th, 2008, 12:55 AM

Perhaps we should vote as to what FTP content should be on the DVD(s)?
Some essentials would be;
NBK2000 pdf,
The 9mm BSP by PA luty,
A couple of the better/easier Bill Holmes books,
The PMJB1-4
Any other original PDF by NBK,
Some good books on primaries and caps.
It dosent have to be everything, just the "best of the best". We'd also need chemistry books, emergency medicine, survival,
chemical weapons.
Perhaps it would even be viable to make copies of the entire ftp onto DVDs to sell and help out the forum?
Ie; one DVD could be devoted to HE's, one to chemical weapons on so on. One would purchase them seperately.
Mega, perhaps you would have some valuable input into this.

There should be a distinction between the type of DVD nbk was working on and what would constitute a Forum DVD. Nbk was
producing his own content, or so he informed me. His content was supplemented by various books, vids, etc., but it was
substantially his own work. This was a tremendous undertaking, and that's why he never finished it...
What you guys are talking about is assembling a collection of other peoples copyrighted work and selling it. This is something
I do not approve of, the selling that is.
Indeed there should be a way to get these materials to as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, and as cheaply as
possible, without overstepping the boundaries of legality. This is a perplexing issue, one that I have ruminated on many an
occasion.
What should be provided is the easy part, everything :) How to distribute the material is the hard part.
Not everyone wants everything, most people just want a particular book or file. Ideally the Internet should allow those that
want a piece of the pie to have it, and those that want the whole pie to get that too. As things are now it is easy to get single
files, but it is very difficult and inconvenient to get large numbers of files.
Online file sharing hosts, torrents, FTPs, direct downloads - these all have their limitations. Organizing and maintaining such a
system is also a challenge.
We are also faced with time limits. Who can say when the crackdown will come and the fedgov decides that everything on the
Internet is illegal. No books, no pron, no ebay sales, no search engines, nothing but disney and .gov.
This may never happen, but not expecting it to happen given the current Big Brother climate is very naive. Not planning for it
to happen is stupid.
If someone would like to donate $1 million to me I can start sending DVD's for free to every member of The Forum containing
the entire FTP. Short of that a group collaboration is our best hope.
First, we need to organize the files available to us, weed out redundancy, figure out what we have and what we still need. Plans
for this are underway. Second, we need to figure out a means of distribution. P2P would be great for this, if it is set up right.
Third, we need to establish a means of accepting new content on a continual basis. The collection needs to get increasingly
more valuable if people are expected to maintain it.
Rbick February 18th, 2008, 09:28 AM

Well count me in. Just tell me what I need to do to help.
tmp February 19th, 2008, 12:48 AM

... nothing but disney and .gov.
What a depressing thought ! I too am opposed to charging for information
especially when I consider that the FTP was built by the hard work of the
members.
Biggest immediate problem is distribution. My upload speed is pathetic. Last

week I attempted an(encrypted) upload to RapidShit. It may have been the
time of the day but it was only accepting 73 KB/sec. I was pushing the file
on a 1 MB/sec system here at work. There's got to be another way to get
this accomplished. I haven't been able to pay much attention to my website
lately but even that'll have space limitations. I'll keep you posted.
JekyllandHyde February 19th, 2008, 01:33 AM

I have an idea for the distribution problems:
Why not simply make a torrent that compiles all the files to go o nto the Dvd s then allo w people to do wnload and bu rn the
files onto Dvd at their leisure? This would be especially useful for people who live in countries with strict import rules (such as
Australia), and would greatly reduce the cost as well.

We're forgetting the simple fact that even taking into account 25% of the FTP being redundant, we're still looking at over
200gb's worth of material. Or, around 60or so DVD's.
Maybe one way to get around that would be to purchase the HDD from TMP mirrored over. But then that requires a substantial
amount of work on TMP's end, but does negate part of the legality of selling the material. As your selling the HDD itself not
the items on the HDD.
-=HeX=- February 19th, 2008, 09:23 AM

Guys, I have been working on my own DVD for a while now and its estimated time of release is 2012. However, I may just try
out a forum collection type disc instead.
All I need is the ftp but I am on 56k and I am only allowed online for 2 hours a week and my mobile phone cannot download
files. Could somebody send of the ftp on discs please if at all possible? PM me.
Also, the cost of the 30 disc set would be $60 with $50 going to the forum and the remainder to cover costs incurred. Postage
to europe and america would be included.
It would also contain my own personal work and research on one of the discs.
What are your thoughts and comments and abuse?
Zerstoren Sie February 19th, 2008, 05:03 PM

Perhaps a collective effort to acquire blank dvd's is in order. I don't know how many of you have experience dumpster diving.
As for myself, that's where I get my blanks when I need them. Some well-known office supply stores in the US tend to throw
out a ton. I'm guessing this is due to returns because of hardware compatibility issues. Based on what I have seen, it is
possible to get one or two spindles worth of blank dvd's every 1-3 weeks. If many on the forum were to try this, enough might
be collected for free distribution.
Red Beret February 20th, 2008, 11:35 PM

Acquiring blank dvd's would be in order, even if we don't know exactly what we are doing with them right now, better to have it
and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
We needn't put "everything" onto the dvd's, just essentials, as was said. The best from each area. It will still be large for sure,
but it's better than not distributing information at all.
-=HeX=- February 21st, 2008, 04:47 AM

Well a friend is downloading that huge torrent of books for me that we saw on the pirate bay so thats a start.
Who owns the ftp because if they sent me it all on dvds and I could, with your help, pick out the bits that I should put on the
dvds that I will release in 2012 and when I am able I will set up a backup ftp.
All help is greatly appreciated. Any thoughts because it seems that I must decide here.
parmegianno February 23rd, 2008, 07:32 AM

NBK's material which I was talking about earlier in this topic (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?
p=100540&postcount=2) has now been uploaded to the Forum FTP and is currently located in uploads/parmegianno.

Is there a size limit to files on P2P networks? The contents could be put into a password protected folder (or several folders for
potentially easier sharing) and uploaded.
I'm not sure if this is viable, However it seems like it could work and sounds alot easier than making (and sending) dozens of
DVD's for each person.
Enkidu February 24th, 2008, 04:17 AM

There is no limit to size of files shared over torrent or P2P networks, AFAIK. What you're talking about is coming up with 'the
essentials' and skipping the DVD. That is an idea that has been discussed before. My personal opinion is that the suggestion
to come up with a DVD is really just a suggestion to come up with an easily transferable essentials library that fits on a DVD for
convenience sake.
Maybe we should consider the pros and cons of DVD vs. P2P. Is anybody here familiar with the Dangermouse project that
existed at one time at The Crucible? It failed. The why's are debatable, I guess... but it still failed.
Mr Science February 24th, 2008, 04:44 AM
LuzRD, I have seen torrent files that exceeded 200GB; the maximum size of the torrent all really depends on your hard drive
capacity. :)
As for comparing the two options, P2P wins hands down. The only real advantages I can think of, is that you can take it to
places where there is no access to internet (which barely makes sense), and you have an immediate hard copy of the data
(which you can do anyways when you are done downloading x content)
As for P2P, here are a few advantages:

-Neither the sender or receiver are paying for anything, unlike sending DVD's.
-The larger a demand for x content, the torrent will better support itself. Also might I add, whether you get ten downloads or
ten thousand (many of my Demonoid torrent were at a minimum of 5k downloads, and some exceeded 20-30k :)), it will not
cost you any more, unlike if we were sending DVD's...
-The risk of giving away/selling DVD's would be not worth it. If any authorities saw the content that was copyright, let alone the
material, being distibuted, it would give you bad attention.
-You can stop a few people giving out x DVD's by going to the source, but you cannot do that to a torrent. As long as that
small torrent file is circulating via TPB, Demonoid, rapidshare, megaupload, forum attachments, etc etc, anyone could begin
downloading the files, which could potentially contain much more data than any CD/DVD-R could contain, as discussed earlier.
And torrents now don't even need a tracker to operate.
In short, P2P is *by far* our most efficient means of spreading files, from the reasons above. I would only really start
considering using DVD's to spread things, only if there was some major hypothetical lockdown of the internet by the ministry of
homeland security, or some other group. The internet is already viewed by the Pentagon as an "enemy weapons system," so I
could imagine this time coming soon: http://www.globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=7980
So, other measures could be taken further down the road if we need to, but for now, it is wise to stick with our fastest, most
efficient, secure means of transfer: peer to peer.
parmegianno February 24th, 2008, 01:27 PM

Mr Science, I agree with most of your points, but the most commonly used P2P programs cannot be called secure. Sure, they
are secure in comparison to handing out your postal address and real name in order to receive a DVD you ordered, but there
is hardly any P2P program which effectively hides your IP address. Exceptions do exist, but they are still rarely used which
makes them a poor choice if you're looking for a big repertory of files and want to download with more than just a few single
kB/s.

Yeah, i was saying it comparatively with mail. But hiding your IP really isn't a matter of using the right client (yet), but more a
matter of getting other software, then utilizing that. For instance, Peerguardian autokicks IP's from recording industries,
universities, governments, etc. And a program called SMAC changes your NIC MAC address, and you can get a new IP within 15
seconds (only works if you have cable internet).

For a combination of P2P and security a darknet might be a good way to go, heres the wikipedia article...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darknet
Silentnite February 24th, 2008, 08:08 PM

A darknet is rather pointless. How do you confirm who on this forum is allowed access? Limiting the access kills speeds, and
the spread of knowledge. First we're talking about sending someone literally 1000+'s of dvd's and funding a project for him to
mail them out to people, and then we go to P2P isn't secure enough?
Please. Spread the knowledge, spread the power. Quit worrying about a postage stamp or a list. More then likely your already
on 30+ lists and your just fooling yourself otherwise.

Tell me more about SMAC. I found the webpage of what i think is the maker of this program. Since this is a crappy webpage,
and something a hacker would be interested in, I can't trust this site with an executable until I learn more about it.
The page is http://www.klcconsulting.net/smac/
They offer several versions; the Evaluation Edition is free, but lacking in some potentially nifty features; the Standard Edition
looks like it is just fine and this is what I would like to download if its out there; the Professional Edition only adds the ability
to make a list of addresses (I don't need network reports or a year of updates since I don't plan on buying the software); and
the Site and Enterprise Editions just add unlimited company installs.
I didn't find the standard or pro edition anywhere... I would like to know a little more about what I can do with the prog
because it seems potentially useful.
-------------------------------------------------------
There is an upper limit to the practicality of a torrent. If it is too large no one will bother downloading it because they will never
hope to see it end. That means less seeders and leechers, and less people on a large torrent is even more discouraging
because you know something big is going to disappear before you can hope to finish. If the torrent is made correctly with
regards to letting people download individual files so they can pick and choose, that might work. A 100GB rar files with no
description tells me you are a cocksucker trying to get me to download a 100GB virus!
In the last 5 years I bought 4 hard drives for my computer, more RAM, a faster processor and graphics card, and still my
equipment is antiquated compared to the new stuff out just this month. In this 5 year time my Internet provider has not only
remained the same, but my average speeds have gone down. They oversell the service, they restrict bandwidth even though
they already paid for the infrastructure...
My point is everything computer related advances so fast, but not download speeds. 5 years from now I will probably have a
BlueRay RW drive (HDDVD is dead!) to watch some high def movies, a couple TB drives, 8GB of RAM, but I will still have the
same old crappy Internet access.
There are practical limits to what can be downloaded, and those limits seem to be frozen. When change does come, it will
happen fast. Maybe some billionaire with a conscience will give away a new fangled Wi-Fi system to every school and library in
the country with a 50 mile range able handle 10TB/sec downloads creating a nationwide free Internet service with onion routing
hardwired into the system... I can dream.
Silentnite February 26th, 2008, 08:10 PM

As we speak the local networks around here are laying doorstep fiber. I chatted with several technicians and while it's going to
be a bit before its enabled its meant to be a big selling feature. With all the dormant Fiber cable in the US alone sooner or
later its going to be a pretty rapid change.
Do the torrent in several files. Roguesci DVD 1. Roguesci DVD 2. And make it an .iso but include the files included in the
description of the torrent. 4gig chunks isn't horrible anymore.

Mega, I downloaded the trial of smac from your link, but I couldn't find a serial that would work. I found a serial claiming to be
for smac 2.0 but it would not work with the trial vs. 2.0.0.2 (according to the smac.exe properties).
Limewire says it allows files of up to 1TB so file size is not a problem for P2P, of course having the entire FTP as one file would
likely fail (I am assuming that those who kept the file shared would be the minority).
Without having FTP access I am going to assume that not including personal directories the contents of the FTP either are or
can be organized into specific categories.
If this is the case would it be feasible to compress and password the individual categories and share them P2P? Maybe have a
.txt file in each directory listing all current categories available.
If the motive is to keep the content for only those who currently have FTP access, the passwords could be listed on the FTP so
to be kept accessible by those with FTP accounts.
If the motive is to let it be shared then obviously neglect the password when compressing the directories. I would expect MUCH
faster downloads after not too long this way.
For an example....
Say for example there are 100 scientific .pdf's, 50 videos, and 30 military manuals in the "explosives" directory. These 3
subdirectories could be named something like...
"explosives-pdf-2/08"
"explosives-videos1-2/08"
"explosives-videos2-2/08"
"explosives-military manuals-2/08"
There are two directories for video just to show an understanding that multiple directories will be needed for some categories.
Similar file names to be established for all categories. Note that the date is included in the file name to assist in updating the
newer content at a later time.
I suggest this format with the topic (explosives) first, then the media (pdf/video/manual) as I think it would be the easiest
way to find exactly what your looking for. Now where i see a conflict in this would be not all military manuals/videos/programs/
pdf's etc.. will fit into another category, and at this time I'm not sure how that would be resolved (maybe naming the
directories with the media first THEN the content???).
If this is feasible there could possibly be a schedule for volunteers to download some of the different categories at certain
times until an acceptable number of people have made the content available P2P. I suggest a schedule to help with
bandwidth, and so there aren't 15 people all downloading and sharing the same category.
Does any of this sound good? It's getting late here, and i hope I've made sense.
*******
Moderator note: Check your spelling next time. 7 corrections is a bit much.
~~~~
I have SMAC 2.0 in my FTP folder, with patch included.
-Mr Science

If your going to break up the files into several different torrents I think you should put a simple text file in each torrent with a
full listing of all the files in all the torrents, and the torrent names, etc. Then when people download one torrent they would get
the info for all torrents which would whet their appetites for the rest of them.
LuzRD February 27th, 2008, 04:43 PM

Mr. Science I apologize for my spelling. I typically google words that I'm not sure about and rely on a google link "did you
mean ____" to correct myself. I will now use an actual spell check. Thank you.
Hirudinea, that is what I meant when I said "Maybe have a .txt file in each directory listing all current categories available..
I think file name, size, type, and date would be enough information to include for each file within the text file. Would anybody
add/delete any of these details?
Is there a list of the content of the FTP available?

Yes LuzRD, on the front page of the FTP....
And as for the DVD, I think first and foremost we need to have each of the individual files up, before amassing such a
compilation.
I think of it this way: what is easier to hide, and move around: a pocketbook, a box of books, or a boxcar full of books? Sure,
while you will move a lot more around considerably more, honestly, there will be far less people who would want to commit
themselves to not only spend days if not weeks downloading everything, but spending just as long if not longer to seed it all
to >1.000. One torrent will make it easy for X authority group to monitor IP's, but what if there was several hundred (or
thousand) simultaneous torrents active? I think for security reasons, smaller torrents are better as well. As for the smaller
torrents of individual files or groups, people will only be downloading what they truly need, so you can expect them to be more
dedicated with the torrent. I don't know about other people, but for smaller books, I'll leave it on seeding while I'm doing
other torrents, and some of my own torrents have ratios of 200 and higher.
My point being, lets get ALL of our content out, before worrying about any semi-official RS DVD.
-=HeX=- March 1st, 2008, 12:11 PM

A 1 terabyte download :Eek: and what about the people with slow internet and limited access....
I mean its all well and good for people with broadband but on 56k it takes a hour just to download 1 megabyte.
Imagine the length of time that would take... 119.7 years! And by the end the end I would be dead.
I believe that DVD or Blue ray is the way. But I am a bit biased. If anybody wishes to donate dvds with data email me and we
shall arrange a post drop.
OT but who is dynamitemike and why is he editing my water cooler posts, or is he a moderator? I dont think he is.
Hinckleyforpresident March 1st, 2008, 02:57 PM

A 1 terabyte download :Eek: and what about the people with slow internet and limited access....
I mean its all well and good for people with broadband but on 56k it takes a hour just to download 1 megabyte.
Perhaps it would be wise to combine the P2P and the DVD ideas. People with high speed internet could download the torrents,
and then they could do a more local distribution by DVD or similar media. Personally, I know a few members of RS in person,
and I would be happy to give them the files if they were unable to download. If everyone did something like this, the library
could branch out in a lovely decentralized manner.
This certainly wouldn't take care of everyone, but I bet it would knock a good chunk off the list of people who can't download.
What do you all think?
Mr Science March 1st, 2008, 04:18 PM

I agree with you. After thinking about it, it isn't quite fair for us all to agree on one 'official' medium to send the files......it all
really depends on your area, and your situation. As you said, decentralization is the key. :)
Silentnite March 2nd, 2008, 12:45 AM

That's worrying about the spread at tier 2. Tier one is us getting the main host out. If alot of individual dvd's is a bad idea,
what about like themed packs. Release packs in the same theme as our forum is structured.
Mr Science March 23rd, 2008, 07:57 PM

Perhaps to continue the spread of these files (legally, for once), we can have some wikipedia-like page, where all subjects will
have their own pages, in which anyone can add more information. After it has enough information, we can then edit it, and
Megalomania can possibly sell the PDF's/printed guides to support Roguesci.
That is probably the best choice we have to continue spreading material around, without breaking any copyrights. We have to
be a little safe distributing our current material, but imagine how much more freely our own material can circulate since it is
then our property. I see at least a dozen new sources for our information, since it then belongs to us, or is non-copyright
material. Gun shows, eBay, Paladin Press-esque sites just to name a few, each location depending on what material/subjects
you plan to release.
phrankinsteyn March 23rd, 2008, 11:59 PM

Mr Science, I like that idea. There is a lot of knowledge here on this forum. And it could teach some valuable lessons.
Mr Science March 25th, 2008, 12:48 AM

As a matter of fact........I actually set up a wikipedia page for it, so we can implement this idea.
The new thread for it:

http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=102027

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > nitrocellulose problems
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View Full Version : nitrocellulose problems
Thermiteisfun February 17th, 2008, 09:32 AM

So with the reintroduction of the WC, I'm assuming it's still the place for the occasional no ob question. If not.... well then I'm
probably not going to b e h e r e m uch longer :(
Having gone to lowes I noticed they wonderful bottles of 90% H2SO4. now having bought a 50lb bag of KNO3 and only having
gone through about 15 lbs of it so far I decide to start nitrations beginning with nitrocellulose because I need the la quer.
fast forward..... everything is dissolving and nothing is nitrating.
I have tried the 1:1 2:1 1:2 of KNO3:H2SO4 and everything is just turnin g to slop....very NOx smelling slop and every time I
base the solution or rather clu mp of shit to clean it up I'm realizing I should bubble the fumes through water so I don't have to
deal with this and just have HNO3 (rather dilute albeit)
I'm slowly sp rinkling the KNO 3 into the H2SO 4 and stirring the whole tim e, I've tried cold, hot, room temp, nothing. No change
in results. after a while a thick layer of precipitate form s atop the solution (I'm a s s u m ing its K2SO4)
W TF:confuse d:
(i might be adding more to this post)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Fuck Kevin Rudd...
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View Full Version : Fuck Kevin Rudd...
Red Beret February 23rd, 2008, 08:22 AM

Kevin Rudd, the Australian "Prime Minister", wants to (among other things) censor what we can access on our own computers! Is he off his fucking head!?
This country has gone to shit, that smarmy little bastard Rudd is really doing a number on us. He can't be too bright either, he said "sorry" to the aboriginies, for the actions of
past government. Gee, I didn't think they would go for compensation, fucking surprise, surprise.
The only thing I'm sorry about is that Captain Cook and his team didn't wipe them out. Fucking sorry, shit.
And now the "gun control coalition" (ie; extremist anti- self defence party) are pushing for complete ban on handguns. I hope the leader of this party has his house broken
into, his kids tied up and beaten and his wife raped senseless in front of him. But he can rest happy, he is trying to take "murderous guns" out of the hands of "criminals" by
imposing new "laws". While you are at it mate, why don't you ban cars, trucks, busses, cigarretes, alcohol, kitchen knives, chainsaws, and all those other day to day inanimate
items, that are used by just about eveyone. Because they kill people, don't you know?
I'm fucking fed up. You know what I mean?
ChippedHammer February 23rd, 2008, 08:39 AM

The lesser of two evils?
I prefer Rudd over that fuckwit Howard any day, I am also of the opinion that we should have removed the natives from existence, then we could just say 'ohh well happened
too long ago to care about' and move on.
Handguns were damn hard to get legally anyway, all gun bans do is to make idiots feel safe because you know the criminals all use legal guns. All it does is take weapons
away from responsible people. If you want a handgun, buy a blank (http://www.diyguns.com/) from the US, carefully import (not to hard) and buy some tools and a cheap
mill to finish it off.
Charles Owlen Picket February 23rd, 2008, 10:30 AM

Many of the decent, hard working people of Australia & NZ don't realize how many guns exist in Asia. On the streets of any large city there is a whole sale black market selling
firearms like any drug dealer would sell dope. I suppose that statement rings obvious but when it's actually witnessed, it becomes a bit more powerful.
In Japan's big cities, it's covered by OC interests and stays there but in places like Hong Kong it's on the streets, quite open like dope. Same with Seoul: it's a street sale. Oz is
too physically near that phenomenon for the same people to not start taking part of that market. "Object control" has always been a convenient whipping boy or security
blanket of politicians. That will never change.
I would enjoy knowing statistically what the level of violent crime is before and after physical controls are implemented. London is actually a pretty violent city. After all sorts of
firearms laws, they had a spike in violent crime! Look at the major cities in the USA which have strict firearms laws.....they are nightmares. Just out of curiosity, does the
present Australian government deal more harshly with violent offenders than previous administrations?
edit:
Is there a great deal of firearms discussion in the Australian/NZ press or TV???
dinkydexy February 23rd, 2008, 03:19 PM

I agree with Red Beret; if Kevin Rudd seriously wants to see less physical violence and bloodshed he should stop all his silly talk about 'censorship' and 'handgun control' and
simply sort out the Australian front row. If they actually HAVE a front row to sort out, that is.
I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the events of 6.10.07 in Marseille, France, during the Rugby World Cup, when the England front row of Phil Vickery, Andrew Sheridan
and Mark Reagan pulverised the Aussies to a pulp, thus setting up a famous England victory and sending the cry-baby Aussies back to where they came from (possibly on the
same plane as New Zealand, who got similarly pulverised by France later the very same day, in spite of yet again being 'hot favourites'(!) to win the Trophy).
I think you should start a pressure group, Red Beret, lobbying Kevin Rudd to introduce legislation making it compulsory for the Aussie pack to PUSH in scrums, ROLL in mauls
and RUCK during, er, rucks. Believe you me, things will be much less ugly for you if they do, and it will put an end to all the pain and suffering your nation has to bear as a
result of their current lily-livered efforts in a flash. He needs to be told.
Bugger February 24th, 2008, 12:42 AM

In New Zealand, possession of handguns (except air pistols, for which no license is required) is legal generally only in the hands of the Pigs, the Armed Services, licensed
antique collectors, and licensed members of pistol clubs (who have to keep their guns in the secure custody of the pistol clubs' premises, and never remove them). The Pigs are
in charge of licensing. Temporary licenses may be given by the Pigs for such purposes as film-making. A "pistol" is defined as any firearm that is shorter than 13 inches (33
cm).
condor_b75 February 24th, 2008, 02:39 AM

What most people fail to realize that it is not and never was about guns and violence, but about control and manipulation. And always was. Unarmed populace is an easy prey
for all kinds of predators. Instead of using the force as they did in Russia in 1920s and 30s they use "soft" approach and "reasoning" to achieve the same goal.
sbovisjb1 February 24th, 2008, 03:54 PM

Kevin Rudd, the Australian "Prime Minister", wants to (among other things) censor what we can access on our own computers! Is he off his fucking head!?
This country has gone to shit, that smarmy little bastard Rudd is really doing a number on us. He can't be too bright either, he said "sorry" to the aboriginies, for the actions of
past government. Gee, I didn't think they would go for compensation, fucking surprise, surprise.
The only thing I'm sorry about is that Captain Cook and his team didn't wipe them out. Fucking sorry, shit.
And now the "gun control coalition" (ie; extremist anti- self defence party) are pushing for complete ban on handguns. I hope the leader of this party has his house broken
into, his kids tied up and beaten and his wife raped senseless in front of him. But he can rest happy, he is trying to take "murderous guns" out of the hands of "criminals" by
imposing new "laws". While you are at it mate, why don't you ban cars, trucks, busses, cigarretes, alcohol, kitchen knives, chainsaws, and all those other day to day inanimate
items, that are used by just about eveyone. Because they kill people, don't you know?
I'm fucking fed up. You know what I mean?
Just because Guns are illegal does not mean that criminals won't use them. They don't give a shit, only law abiding citizens who are trying to defend themselves will be
screwed.
Secong Nature February 24th, 2008, 06:37 PM

This may seem a leap of logic from people owning handguns and people toting them in public, but I'm more against the idea of guns in public than for it.
Having said that I'm fine with people owning as many guns as they want, but like Bugger said, there are far too many loops you have to jump through to obtain a handgun
that they have become essentially illegal.
I do however carry knives around with me on all occasions (relatively small ones mind you), these I justify by saying that they are just as much tools as weapons and are
more to ward off a fight than to win one.
But I do believe that it is illegal for people to even carry a Swiss Army Knife around as they are concealable weapons.
Though I did meet Rigel (infamous cop who plays in the band Dawn of Azazel) off duty and he was all for carrying knives around.
Seems that packing blades may not be a very enforced law after all.

Speaking of law 'n' order in Australia, the Pig forces in Australia, State and Federal, are internationally notorious for their corruption. In the late 1970s, a big drug smuggler,
engaged in getting Thai heroin into Australia using yachts and "mules" (couriers), declared that "one can buy an Australian cop for a hamburger" (sic). Do any Australian
members have any opinions as to which are the most corrupt, and the most brutal, Pig forces in Australia? From what I know, the Queensland State Pigs, closely followed by
those in New South Wales, are the most corrupt (with Victoria not too far behind), while the West Australia State Pigs are the most brutal.

The US is becoming more and more isolated on issues relating to gun control, and I greatly fear for our rights even here....
The world is gradually being overcome by a wave of big government socialism, and civil disarmament is one of the major steps along the way. The Hillarys and Obamas in the
US want nothing more than to transform this country into a Socialist society in the mold of France or Canada. Private ownership of guns has no place in that future.
It infuriates me just to think about it, primarily because I know there are millions of smart put passive sheep in the USA who passionately agree with them.
Charles Owlen Picket February 26th, 2008, 05:00 PM

One of the most important things when making a decision of who to support politically is to check the voting record of a candidate who has any past political activity. With US
senators that is very easy. ALL THREE CANDIDATES HAVE VOTED REPEATEDLY FOR FURTHER CONTROLS OVER FIREARMS. John McCain has made it no secret that he
comfortable with more constraints on firearms ownership, etc.
ALL THREE candidates for US President may embrace further controls. If you were looking for that High-cap Glock or Eastern European AK, I would buy it NOW and not wait
until after the election.

In many ways, the "final showdown" on this issue could well be the current reversal of the Washington DC ban. The ban was reversed in federal court on the grounds that it
was a violation of the second amendment....
It is going to the Supreme Court, I believe they have no choice but to hear the case, and as I understand it the central issue will be whether the second ammendment is an
"individual" right. This argument is so disingenuous that it infuriates me. Everyone knows the US founding fathers intended the second ammendment to be an individual right,
the dissenting arguments are merely desperate left wing attempts to circumvent the constitution....
And yet the Supreme Court has to clarify it........:mad:
I think both sides are afraid of the decision the court might make. The court is pretty well split, and anything is possible.....

It is going to the Supreme Court, ... the central issue will be whether the second ammendment is an "individual" right. This argument is so disingenuous that it infuriates me.
Everyone knows the US founding fathers intended the second ammendment to be an individual right, the dissenting arguments are merely desperate left wing attempts to
circumvent the constitution.
I thought that only money-driven right-wingers attempt to to circumvent the U$ Constitution. MANY more attempts have been made to do so by Republican Presidents and
Congresspeople than by Democratic ones.
Anformula February 27th, 2008, 10:31 AM

I thought that only money-driven right-wingers attempt to to circumvent the U$ Constitution. MANY more attempts have been made to do so by Republican Presidents and
Congresspeople than by Democratic ones.
And your point is..........???:confused:

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > What would you do with this marvelous machine?
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View Full Version : What would you do with this marvelous machine?
iHME February 23rd, 2008, 06:14 PM

So, we have this machine that inflicts unbearable pain remotely.
No burn marks or other evidence of use.
What would you do with it?
Some info on the technology and device:

Article at Dailymail article about it (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=482560&in_page_id=1965)
Manufacturers site about it (http://www.raytheon.com/products/silent_guardian/)
Also if one could make this from domestic electronics with minimal modifications it could be a pretty marvelous item to cause panic.
It uses microwaves to stimulate nerve endings.

It is "tuned" to the specific frequency.
The frequency is probably pretty high as the skin effect is stated to be only 1/64 inch.
Of course the home made one would not need to have so tight tolerances as the commercial one, it is for panic and chaos, not for torture and crowd control.
dinkydexy February 23rd, 2008, 08:57 PM

i. Manipulate the outcome of sporting events by zapping horses, players, athletes etc (device would need to be disguised...in a pair of binoculars, for example) and thus make
a stash at the bookies.
ii. Deter the local idiots from hanging around.
iii. Exact revenge on certain people who've taken liberties with me in the last ten years and mistakenly think I've forgotten about it.
Hirudinea February 23rd, 2008, 09:32 PM

Have you ever seen the Star Trek episode "Mirror, Mirror"? With this you could have your very own 'Agony Booth'!
sbovisjb1 February 24th, 2008, 03:52 PM

Kakihara! What the fuck
do you think you are doing?
Just a little torture.
- Ichi the Killer(Koroshiya)
BlackFalcoN February 28th, 2008, 02:49 PM

Footage of this machine can be seen on the Discovery's 'Future Weapons', S02E12 (ADS: Active Denial System).
As to the original question: I would try to increase the output and wavelength of the machine and learn to focus on the eyes/brainstem. Turn it from a less-than-lethal-weapon
into a more-than-lethal-weapon. ;)
Remote focussed boiling of the cerebellum can ruin every mark's day I'd say. :rolleyes:
a3990918 February 28th, 2008, 04:52 PM

As to the original question: I would try to increase the output and wavelength of the machine and learn to focus on the eyes/brainstem. Turn it from a less-than-lethal-weapon
into a more-than-lethal-weapon. ;)
Remote focussed boiling of the cerebellum can ruin every mark's day I'd say. :rolleyes:
I'm assuming that there is no physical evidence left after the application of this weapon? If the effective range could be extended far enough, then conceivably, this could be
the ultimate assasination weapon. The "mark" would fall over, dead, from an apparent heart attack, stroke,aneurism:confused: etc. There would be no evidence to the
contrary until an autopsy was performed several hrs or days later, giving the assassin ample time to dispose of the weapon and make good his escape:p...
BlackFalcoN February 28th, 2008, 05:08 PM

The weapons works by focusing a wave of energy on a concentrated spot. This causes local topical heating, just enough for the pain sensors in the skin to be activated and
cause the person to move. The penetration of the wave of the ADS is very minimal, thus causing no internal heating. (the frequency is picked because it does not penetrate
very deep into tissue).
If you could cause the wave to penetrate deeper (alter frequency to around e.g. 2.4 GHz microwave and amplitude) and make the focal point of the waves on a very small
target spot, you could literally boil somebodies tissue (very rapidly heating is required, since you don't want to give him the opportunity to move out of the wave).
If you could target the part of the brain that actually controls balance and motor functions, you could first disable that, and then let your sadistic fantasies burn whichever part
you prefer without your target actually being able to flee :p (much like burning crippled flies with a magnifying glass ;) )
I agree that this would make a very stealthy weapon, since it does not generate any noise, visible projectile and since it hasn't been done very often in criminal history.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Financial Depression
Preparedness?
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generallisimo March 17th, 2008, 04:03 PM

With Bear Sterns getting bailed out by the "stock" holders of the FED for 2 dollars a share on a stock that was trading well over
100 bills coupled with todays fluctuating gold price after the IMF dumped a bunch of gold.
Outside of being able to buy gold and take delivery of that gold what are some solid strategies to live relatively comfortably
during an economic depression?
I am interested in not only "survival" type strategies but also what worked for Americans during The Great Depression, other
historical examples, and other related solutions.
Where information is concerned any format is acceptable.
Enkidu March 17th, 2008, 07:16 PM

I don't believe that the US will be in a 'depression' anytime soon. Now, we are in the midst of a recession, but a recession is
much less a severe an economic slump than a depression; recessions are part of the natural boom-and-bust business cycle.
From what my job-hunting college friends are telling me, the only people who are having trouble finding 'good' jobs are the
liberal arts people... the natural science and engineering folks (like me) are having absolutely no trouble.
I don't have any advice about your investment portfolio, as I don't have enough money for investments. (I am naught but a
poor college student.)
generallisimo March 18th, 2008, 12:14 AM

Enkidu thanks for commenting back. To further refine my needs; I am not looking to create a investment portfolio of
traditional financial instruments.
Adding to my above statements. I had the opportunity to speak with a fella who lived through the Great Depression. His father
took his life during that time due to the loss of the family farm. It was good to pick his brain just for the few moments
however the conviction in which he commented "back then people would not have killed you....nowadays they will" is what stuck
with me from the conversation.
To that end I am looking for people who can relate similar conversation with our great grand fathers and mothers, ideas of
what worked, perceived advantages and the sort.
Mr Science March 18th, 2008, 12:50 AM

Precious metals are a great thing to invest in (after all, they ARE precious metals....not paper (as in money)). While gold is a
good investment, silver is probably a better idea. Not only is it considerably cheaper, but percentage wise, I believe it has
been increasing at a faster rate. So basically, if you invested $5000 in 1 oz gold bars (considerably fewer), and $5000 in 1 oz
silver bars (many more), you would have a greater increase with silver.

I attempted to post this comment earlier...Maybe the quick comment is buggy too.
I am not necessarily interested in developing a portfolio of traditional financial instruments.
I am interested in proven strategies of preparedness. Possibly historic commentary. Government contingency plans.
Information outlining the dynamic of a society gripped by a financial depression.
I had an interesting conversation with a former Intel officer tonight. They spoke of coordinating weapons buy back programs
years in advance before destabilization of specific countries. The reason I mention this is that I am interested in any triggering
events signs that may signal a more serious condition.
Bert March 18th, 2008, 11:08 AM

If you're going to buy precious metals, you will want some of it in small weights to be of use in everyday transactions. You can
buy 90% Silver coinage in the US, which will be of small enough value so as to prevent the need for chopping up gold bars to
make change! (Pieces of eight, anyone?!)
http://the-moneychanger.com/commandments.phtml
Other than that, I'd advise living far enough from any city so that a starving man could not walk to your place from the city in
less than 2 days, and planting a garden.

During the Y2K scare, I read about someone who was planning to burn an old car in front of his house and board up all of his
windows. He was planning for widespread rioting, and he figured the looters would pass by his house if it looked like it had
already been looted. Really, I think that that's overkill. If the rioting/looting ever got that bad, I'd (hope to) relocate to a rural
area at one of my friend's homesteads.
All that I can say is that 'general preparedness' and a lot of 12ga shells are your best bet.

I am basing my understanding on what I observed during Katrina.
People took from others what they did not have. Neighbors became your battle buddy if not your enemy.
If bread costs 10 bucks a loaf. And stores refuse to accept Federal subsidy cards. There are going to be a bunch of hungry
folks.
I am alarmed at how people keep pointing to precious metals as the only way. Although the small coinage idea is good.
Someone has to know a repository of information. With that said I found this interesting although more academic than
practical small book.
http://www.tarpley.net/survbook.htm
I have a copy, if anyone is interested in it pm me.
LuzRD March 19th, 2008, 03:12 AM

Generallisimo there is an extensive FTP used by several of the members here. Why not offer to add it to the FTP if it is not
already there?
Being new you may not realize that, but being new it may make a good impression as well.
On topic, as it's been said plant a garden (or at least have the means to do so when it's needed), arm yourself, "general
preparedness", get a generator (obviously to be used sparingly). Basically anything you can do to reduce depending on
others.
plutobound March 19th, 2008, 09:17 AM

I found this interesting although more academic than practical small book.
http://www.tarpley.net/survbook.htm
I have a copy, if anyone is interested in it pm me.
If you think this is useful information, why not scan the book, upload to rapidshare (or some other file sharing service) and
provide a link?
This whole forum is about the free dissemination of knowledge

Generallisimo there is an extensive FTP used by several of the members here. Why not offer to add it to the FTP if it is not
already there?
Being new you may not realize that, but being new it may make a good impression as well.
I would if I could. I have requested permission to the FTP without success.
I have been limited to thanking people via PM.
I have a load of gunsite, AGI, Bear Grylls, Ray Mears, ect on RapidShare.com but I cannot post in the proper sections and do
not want to post here and violate a rule of posting in the wrong area.
However because plutobound requested it I believe it would be appropriate to share the Tarpley link here. Those with access
feel free to add it to the FTP.
http://rapidshare.com/files/100720645/Tarpley_s__surviving__the_cataclysm.rar

A fantastic list found on a blog comment.
100 Items to Disappear First
1. Generators (Goo d ones cost de arly. Gas storage, risky. No isy targe t of thieves; maintenance etc.)
2. Water Filters/Purifiers
3. Portable Toilets
4. Seasoned Firewood. Wood takes about 6 - 12 months to become dried, for home uses.
5. Lamp Oil, Wicks, Lamps (First Choice: Buy CLEAR oil. If scarce, stockpile ANY!)
6. Coleman Fuel. Impossible to stockpile too much.
7. Guns, Ammunition, Pepper Spray, Knives, Clubs, Bats & Slingshots.
8. Hand-can openers, & hand egg beaters, whisks.
9. Honey/Syrups/white, brown sugar
10. Rice - Beans - Wheat
11. Vegetable Oil (for cooking) Without it food burns/must be boiled etc.,)
12. Charcoal, Lighter Fluid (Will become scarce suddenly)
13. Water Containers (Urgent Item to obtain.) Any size. Small: HARD CLEAR PLASTIC ONLY - note - food grade if for drinking.
16. Propane Cylinders (Urgent: Definite shortages will occur.
17. Survival Guide Book.
18. Mantles: Aladdin, Coleman, etc. (Without this item, longer-term lighting is difficult.)
19. Baby Supplies: Diapers/formula. ointments/aspirin, etc.
20. Washboards, Mop Bucket w/wringer (for Laundry)
21. Cookstoves (Propane, Coleman & Kerosene)
22. Vitamins
23. Propane Cylinder Handle-Holder (Urgent: Small canister use is dangerous without this item)
24. Feminine Hygiene/Haircare/Skin products.
25. Thermal underwear (Tops & Bottoms)
26. Bow saws, axes and hatchets, Wedges (also, honing oil)
27. Aluminum Foil Reg. & Heavy Duty (Great Cooking and Barter Item)
28. Gasoline Containers (Plastic & Metal)
29. Garbage Bags (Impossible To Have Too Many).
30. Toilet Paper, Kleenex, Paper Towels
31. Milk - Powdered & Condensed (Shake Liquid every 3 to 4 months)
32. Garden Seeds (Non-Hybrid) (A MUST)
33. Clothes pins/line/hangers (A MUST)
3 4 . C o l e m a n s P u m p R e p a ir Kit
35. Tuna Fish (in oil)
36. Fire Extinguishers (or..large box of Baking Soda in every room)
37. First aid kits
38. Batteries (all sizes buy furthest-out for Expiration Dates)
39. Garlic, spices & vinegar, baking supplies
40. Big Dogs (and plenty of dog food)
41. Flour, yeast & salt
42. Matches . {Strike Anywhere preferred.) Box ed, wooden matches will go first
43. Writing paper/pads/pencils, solar calculators
44. Insulated ice chests (good for keeping items from freezing in Wintertime.)
45. Workboots, belts, Levis & durable shirts
46. Flashlights/LIGHTSTICKS & torches, No. 76 Dietz La nterns
47. Journals, Diaries & Scrapbooks (jot down ideas, feelings, experience; Historic Times)
48. Garbage cans Plastic (great for storage, water, transporting - if with wheels)
49. Men s Hygiene: Shampo o, Toothbrush /p aste, Mouthwash /floss, nail clippers, e tc
50. Cast iron cookware (sturdy, efficient)
51. Fishing supplies/tools
52. Mosquito coils/repellent, sprays/creams
53. Duct Tape
54. Tarps/stakes/twine/nails/rope/spikes
55. Candles
56. Laundry Detergent (liquid)
57. Backpacks, Duffel Bags
58. Garden tools & supplies
59. Scissors, fabrics & sewing supplies
60. Canned Fruits, Veggies, Soups, stews, etc.
61. Bleach (plain, NOT scented: 4 to 6% sodium hypochlorite)
62. Canning supplies, (Jars/lids/wax)
63. Knives & Sharpening tools: files, stones, steel
64. Bicycles Tires/tubes/pumps/ch ains , etc
65. Sleeping Bags & blankets/pillows/mats
66. Carbon Monoxide Alarm (battery powered)
67. Board Games, Cards, Dice
68. d-con Rat poison, MOUSE PRUFE II, Roach Killer
69. Mousetraps, Ant traps & cockroach magnets
70. Paper plates/cups/utensils (stock up, folks)
71. Baby wipes, oils, waterless & Antibacterial soap (saves a lot of water)
72. Rain gear, rubberized boots, etc.
73. Shaving supplies (razors & creams, talc, after shave)
74. Hand pumps & siphons (for water and for fuels)
75. Soysauce, vinegar, bullions/gravy/soupbase
76. Reading glasses
77. Chocolate/Cocoa/Tang/Punch (water enhancers)
78. Surviva l-in-a-Can
79. Woolen clothing, scarves/ear-muffs/mittens
80. Boy Scout Handbook, / also Leaders Catalog
81. Roll-on Window Insulation Kit (MANCO)
82. Graham crackers, saltines, pretzels, Trail mix/Jerky
83. Popcorn, Peanut Butter, Nuts
84. Socks, Underwear, T-shirts, etc. (extras)
85. Lumber (all types)
86. Wagons & carts (for transport to and from)
87. Cots & Inflatable mattres s s
88. Gloves: Work/warming/gardening, etc.
89. Lantern Hangers
90. Screen Patches, glue, nails, screws,, nuts & bolts
91. Teas
92. Coffee
93. Cigarettes
94. Wine/Liquors (for bribes, medicinal, etc,)
95. Paraffin wax
96. Glue, nails, nuts, bolts, screws, etc.
97. Chewing gum/candies
98. Atomizers (for cooling/bathing)
99. Hats & cotton neckerchiefs
100. Goats/chickens
From a Sarajevo War Survivor:

Experiencing horrible things that can happen in a war - death of parents and
friends, hunger and malnutrition, endless freezing cold, fear, sniper attacks.
1. Stockpiling helps. but you never no how long trouble will last, so locate
near renewable food sources.
2. Living near a well with a manual pump is like being in Eden.
3. After awhile, even gold can lose its luster. But there is no luxury in war
quite like toilet paper. Its surplu s va lue is grea ter than gold s.
4. If you had to go without on e utility, lose electricity - it s the eas iest to
do without (unless you re in a ve ry nice climate with no need for heat.)
5. Canned foods are awesome, especially if their contents are tasty without
heating. One of the best things to stockpile is canned gravy - it makes a lot of
the dry unappetizing things you find to eat in war somewhat edible. Only needs
e n o u gh heat to warm , not to cook. It s che ap too, especially if you buy it in
bulk.
6. Bring some books - escapist ones like romance or mysteries become more
valuable as the war continues. Sure, it s g reat to h ave a lot of survival
guides, b ut you ll figure most of that o ut on your own anyway - trust me, you ll
have a lot of time on your hands.
7. The feeling that you re hu man can fade pretty fast. I can t tell yo u how m any
people I knew who would have traded a much needed meal for just a little bit of
toothpaste, rouge, soap or cologne. Not much point in fighting if you have to
lose your humanity. These things are morale-builders like nothing else.
8. Slow burning candles and matches, matches, matches
iHME March 20th, 2008, 06:51 PM

Thank you for uploading the book.

Just a thought, but has anyone ever considered the advantages of a major depression? I mean most of the major political
upheavels do come from economic disasters, and since I'm sure I can say that nobody here is all that happy with the present
political situation, a depression could bring that system down, hey its a thought.

I have a load of gunsite, AGI, Bear Grylls, Ray Mears, ect on RapidShare.com but I cannot post in the proper sections and do
not want to post here and violate a rule of posting in the wrong area.
http://rapidshare.com/files/100720645/Tarpley_s__surviving__the_cataclysm.rar
Thanks for the Tarpley book, You may PM or email me the Rapidshare links for the gunsite, AGI, Bear Grylls, Ray Mears, etc.
material, please.
generallisimo March 21st, 2008, 12:48 AM

Just a thought, but has anyone ever considered the advantages of a major depression? I mean most of the major political
upheavels do come from economic disasters, and since I'm sure I can say that nobody here is all that happy with the present
political situation, a depression could bring that system down, hey its a thought.
Absolutely. Unfortunately I don't believe the true perpetrators would be prosecuted ala Martha Stewart offer up someone who
the public knows and knows is rich and they will think that insider trading is an isolated event.
Not all that happy that our government refuses to follow the US Constitution and all the Brittany Spears fans are ok with it.
Hirudinea March 21st, 2008, 06:36 PM

Absolutely. Unfortunately I don't believe the true perpetrators would be prosecuted ala Martha Stewart offer up someone who
the public knows and knows is rich and they will think that insider trading is an isolated event.
They'ed need more than one scapegoat for a depression.
Not all that happy that our government refuses to follow the US Constitution and all the Brittany Spears fans are ok with it.
Well when the Brittany fans have to pick through garbage cans for food then mabye they'll want to know how to fix the country,
and people like us should be there.
Hang-Man March 22nd, 2008, 10:12 PM

T h e r e s a pretty good book by Peter Schiff called "Crash Proof" tha t's recent and offers some good insight into the current
and upcoming economic situation and how we got here. Its latter chapters are geared more towards people with money to
invest and profiting from the recession than simply surviving it, but it is interesting none the less.

Hang-Man that looks like a terrific selection. While unsuccessfully looking for a .pdf of the aforementioned title I stumbled
upon this one.
Financial Armageddon: Protecting Your Future from Four Impending Catastrophes

By Michael J. Panzner
* Publisher: Kaplan Business

* Number Of Pages: 240
* Publication Date: 2007-03-06
* ISBN-10 / ASIN: 141959608X
* ISBN-13 / EAN: 9781419596087
* Binding: Hardcover
Book Description:
According to Michael Panzner, the US is less than two years away from """"financial Armageddon."""" When the stock market
bubble burst in March 2000, the collapse that followed wiped out over two-thirds of the value of the technology-laden Nasdaq
Index and decimated the hopes and dreams of millions of Americans.
Now, imagine not one, but four such disasters looming on the horizon. Four key elements--Debt, Derivatives, Government
Guarantees, and the Retirement system--are quickly unraveling, and because they are so intricately connected, there will be
an unremitting domino effect. With time running out, this is a disaster-in-the-making on which every American must be
informed so they can protect themselves, their families, and their economic well-being before it's too late.
http://rapidshare.com/files/74579906/141959608X.rar
If you have access to Crash Proof, would you please share it?
Cho! March 24th, 2008, 07:02 PM

Outside of my normal survival/disaster/whatever plans, like others I may put a bit of money in a precious metal of sorts. I am
not self employed and have no debts, so whilst a failing economy could result in my job loss, I am confident that I won't be
living in a tent city. Thanks to the above poster for putting up that list.
Cheers.

Hang-Man, thank you for putting me onto Peter Schiff.
In the future use the private message system for one line replies such as thank you and I agree etc. These types of posts can
quickly "clutter up" a forum.
Bacon46
Vitalis April 1st, 2008, 03:54 AM

It's good to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I don't know about the precious metals though, yea silver is still
doable price-wise, but unless you have a lot of money to throw around, gold is out. It's too damn expensive now, a few years
ago it would have been a great investment.
People have called me crazy for thinking this, but I think the U.S. economy is going straight down the fucking toilet.
Kurt Saxon's page has a section on survival foods ( I wouldn't trust the guy giving me advice on explosives as he blew off his
fingers, but the food ideas seem ok).
Fuck it, I'm raising catfish in barrels.
Charles Owlen Picket April 1st, 2008, 09:59 AM

The logic here is that as Gas prices rise, all things that move via gas burning engine will increase in price. Most everything
comes by truck at some point so that prices will rise commensurate with need for transportation of the item. Also think UPS,
FEDEX & DHS - all things that need distribution.....rise in price.
Some material is time sensitive or some food spoils; these items will possibly spin out of control, price-wise. But the answer
here is not to shut down Gasoline altogether, the switch must be gradual or the economy is hit from that end as well.
Saudi Arabia is the largest buyer of US armaments in the world. The USA is Saudi Arabia's largest buyer of oil. But the price is
set via OPEC and that is a large group of nations, many of whom hate the US quite a bit. What's more the oil industry is (&
has been) insulated from many US laws for almost a generation or two: they do what the fuck they please in their little boats &
country clubs.
Hirudinea April 1st, 2008, 04:50 PM

The logic here is that as Gas prices rise, all things that move via gas burning engine will increase in price.But the answer here
is not to shut down Gasoline altogether, the switch must be gradual or the economy is hit from that end as well.
That should have been started years ago.
What's more the oil industry is (& has been) insulated from many US laws for almost a generation or two: they do what the
fuck they please in their little boats & country clubs.
Exactly, the oil industry is essentially unregulated, and they will make sure the economy stays dependent on oil, hey its
buissness, so don't expect any change until its too late.
megalomania April 2nd, 2008, 05:26 AM

As the cost of certain goods increases, consumers always switch to cheaper alternatives to offset rising prices. That is a basic
tenement of economics. Using cheaper goods like no-name brand toilet paper and cereal can only stretch the dollar so far.
People also cut out purchases of brand name cloths and shoes, new cars, high priced electronics, furniture, new homes, etc.
Not having credit card debt, not having a mortgage so high you can barely afford it, and not getting locked in to ridiculously
high car payments is perhaps the single greatest way Americans can sustain financial independence. I know this is easier said
than done, but there is no great need for a $300,000 home and two $30,000 cars in the garage when you only make less than
$40,000 a year.
The banks make getting credit and loans easy on purpose to lure the average unwary citizen into the trap of indentured
servitude. The financial slave collar goes on so easily, but it is a bitch to remove.
Hitech_Hillbilly April 2nd, 2008, 02:54 PM

Mega is absolutely correct. We can live without almost everything we currently think we need in order to survive.
I have both the luck and the pleasure of still having two living grandparents who lived through the Great Depression. We have
discussed this topic at length on numerous occasions. And while this strategy won't work for many, I am lucky enough that I
can still employee the strategy they used.
Move back to where I grew up. I have a large support base (extended family - Parents, Siblings, Aunts, Uncles, cousins, etc.)
who all live in close proximity. It is mainly a rural community. Large tracts of land are owned and can either be farmed
relatively quickly, or are currently being farmed.
So the plan is to buy a few cattle, put them on the 80 acres we currently own, let one of my brothers watch them, and continue
to work in a large urban area as long as I can. Buy more livestock as I can. If/When the economy collapses, move back
home, and live off of the farm, and run off anyone that's not family that comes around.
It may take some consolidation of resources (land, houses, barns, equipment, etc.) with family members, but should provide
clothes, food and shelter at the least.
Vitalis April 2nd, 2008, 04:29 PM

A lot of us could survive without all the luxury items we take for granted now. We don't need HD TVs to survive.
Many people wouldn't make it though in a really bad situation. I'm speaking of the trucks not running to deliver the food to
the grocery stores, power going out, things of that nature. We are not the same society that the people who lived through the
Great Depression were, we are spoiled.
The cities would erupt in violence and looting, and a lot of the people there would perish.
At least knowing the basics of survival skills, it couldn't hurt and one day may save you.
Hirudinea April 2nd, 2008, 07:25 PM

The banks make getting credit and loans easy on purpose to lure the average unwary citizen into the trap of indentured
servitude. The financial slave collar goes on so easily, but it is a bitch to remove.
If you lend a person $100 and they give you back $110 dollars, you've gotten $10 for nothing, its the perfect business, why
wouldn't banks want everybody to give them money for nothing?
Alexires April 2nd, 2008, 08:40 PM

I just had a look at gasoline prices in the US.
While yes, they have vastly increased since the days of $2.20 a gallon, you guys are still living in a fantasy land. Here in
Australia, the equivalent price is about $5.60 a gallon (as opposed to the highest price I saw of $3.60).
Certainly basic commodities will start to rise in price, but is that such a bad thing? Perhaps the sheeple will start to be shocked
out of their sheltered existance? I doubt the power is going to go out and food is going to suddenly stop coming, but it could
happen quickly (a few weeks, maybe a month).
A rise in basic commodities will cause people to start cutting down on the shit they don't need. You don't need a fucking Ipod,
HDTV, 380 cubic inch V8's to survive.
Ride a pushbike, scooter or motorbike (if you must be manly). Stop watching TV and take up gardening. Buy some chickens.
Not only do they provide eggs, they are cute too... in a curry.
To get back to generallisimo's questions, I pose this to you. Whether economic collapse/ invasion/ government take over/
virus outbreak/etc. happens, are the results going to be different? Your basic actions will be to get away from the looting, the
unwashed masses, and attempt to survive.
Gold is alright. Silver is alright. But things like livestock, tools, weapons, household drugs, first aid gear will be worth infinitely
more. Gold and Silver relies on society rebuilding. Until that happens, they are about as useful as their weight in rocks.
Stock up on nails, hammers, saws, the basics. You don't need to go throw away modern conveniences, but be prepared to live
without them.
I think that is the greatest preperation you can have - The ability to use modern conveniences when they are around, but to
see them as an added bonus and be able to go without them.
Vitalis April 2nd, 2008, 09:07 PM

We do need to prepare. The gas prices Alexires speaks of are right on, they are much higher in other countries. In the U.S.
though we have built up our whole lives in the recent past on cheap gasoline. I remember back in 1998 I could get gasoline
for .97 a gallon. Now it's $3.50/gallon in my area and rising fast. The food is already more expensive, and again, rising fast.
As the prices skyrocket, it will hit us harder, because almost nobody is ready for $5/ gallon gasoline and the huge increase in
food prices that will come from that.
The U.S. dollar is essentially worthless, and the world is waking up to that fact. Couple that with the fact that we import most of
what we need to sustain our standard of living, and we are in deep trouble.
iHME April 3rd, 2008, 11:02 AM

Couple that with the fact that we import most of what we need to sustain our standard of living, and we are in deep trouble.
And considering that a gallon of the cheapest variety (95 octane) costs 5,44 eur for a gallon (1,439 eur/l), that's a whooping
8,54 dollars for one gallon around here and rising! I still hope that I can afford to have a car (and drive with it) when I get my
license.
Our house can use wood as a heat source in our central heating system and we are now using a automated wood pellet
system (its at least 1/3 cheaper than oil). We also have a small food garden and space to have more (we usually enlarge it
once a year). We have a reasonably large front yard (about 500m2) considering that we live in a place comparable to
American suburbs.
No we don't have huge amounts of money, we just got lucky and bought this house of a old widow who moved to a "senior
house" or what ever it is called and we got it for cheap. But now the gowermnet with EU are driving local food production down.
I'd personally rather be dependant on a farmer 100km away than a Polish or Ukraine farmer +1000km away. Just think what
happens when they fuck something up and suddenly you don't have any food to import. Oh poor you.
About national reserves, I don't know about our local ones but we have a 1 month oil buffer and one of the only oil refineries
around here. But I think we have better food reserves then the USA who originally had food reserves to feed it's population for
a year. It is said to be somewhere around one and a half
pounds of food per citizen, do you feel safe and secure? Then better stock up :)
Charles Owlen Picket April 3rd, 2008, 11:08 AM

You fellows have brought up some really great points. And they are geared toward specifics which is fantastic but many have
not gone deep enough (IMO). The concept could branch in two directions, of course.....They are: if society breaks down or if it
just degenerates.
If it breaks down completely a generator will be more than just important: it will be mandatory if you're going to live in a
manner better than the 18th Century. You may actually consider more than one generator or one that works on diesel, etc.
One portable, one stationary. The idea could branch out to any power generation such as a windmill.
If society does not totally go to shit, then, the choices will become much more complex. Simple things like medicine will be
very much in demand. A hoarding of Mexican (or MUCH better, Canadian) pharmaceuticals could provide both barter and
needed materials that would leave things like gold being equal to rocks (as was said!).
The thought process should compare both scenarios and have dynamics for both. Such as ammo would be worth a great deal
but ammo components would be possibly worth more due to their flexibility (& initial cost factor). The same comparison would
be canned food and MRE's. Or fixed knives and razor/box cutters.....& on and on.
The other issue which I believe needs addressing is HOW society would degenerate.... Major societal degeneration begins with
a catastrophe as infrastructure works against gradual degeneration for the most part (unless we suddenly have a complete
removal of all aspects of policing, etc). Does anyone really believe that a gradual degeneration could take place: as I don't. It
would happen in a sudden calamity and perhaps there would be further degeneration AFTERWARD that could be incremental.
But society would work quite hard to stop a breakdown if & when something horrible happened.
Let's pretend that two or more things occurred at once. A terror strike and a stock market crash. Or an assassination of a
leader & a rationing of petroleum. The societal breakdown comes from the inner city. Rioting occurs there NOT in some rural
population base living off some highway. What is that breakdown met with? Strong policing via National Guard or similar. The
focus is generally ALWAYS on containment. Even in the worst scenarios, the containment factors are now in place from
experience. The riots of yesteryear are lessons that are not lost on civic leaders. Quite frankly, I don't see a breakdown as
being an easy thing to factor in modern western society.
generallisimo April 3rd, 2008, 03:45 PM

If it breaks down completely a generator will be more than just important: it will be mandatory if you're going to live in a
manner better than the 18th Century. You may actually consider more than one generator or one that works on diesel, etc.
One portable, one stationary. The idea could branch out to any power generation such as a windmill.
Those with the access a natural gas generator would be huge. Getting off the grid now could help one prepare.
If society does not totally go to shit, then, the choices will become much more complex. Simple things like medicine will be
very much in demand. A hoarding of Mexican (or MUCH better, Canadian) pharmaceuticals could provide both barter and
needed materials that would leave things like gold being equal to rocks (as was said!).
Tools, bluejeans, boots, containers, blankets.ect.
Does anyone really believe that a gradual degeneration could take place: as I don't.
I agree it will not be gradual. It will be sudden. However I believe the outcome the supposed fixes that the public will lap up
like fresh water will degrade gradually.
It would happen in a sudden calamity and perhaps there would be further degeneration AFTERWARD that could be incremental.
But society would work quite hard to stop a breakdown if & when something horrible happened.
Like after Hurricane Katrina?
What is that breakdown met with? Strong policing via National Guard or similar. The focus is generally ALWAYS on containment.
I don't see a breakdown as being an easy thing to factor in modern western society.
Containment of people. There are two operating military internment camps in my state alone. Reportedly there are 15 others
across the US with Federal Prisoners in them now.
The breakdown will be more along the lines of the breakdown the Palestinians suffer. The water runs...but only when the
controllers want it to run.
Now the Fed chief is saying hey we might have a recession. And our leaders want to give the private organization with
nameless investors The Federal Reserve more power and control over our economy.
So with the devaluation of the US dollar and extreme stag-flation coming it looks as if the best method is to go back being a
hillbilly.
Charles Owlen Picket April 4th, 2008, 10:52 AM

Hurricane Katrina was interesting in that it was a study in what the media does to facilitate even more reaction to an event. I
am not saying that the response was anything but poor, but it was made worse by the media reaction. LOCAL facilitation and
reaction was terrible!
It is arguable that local actions (or inaction) made the situation much worse. Hurricane Katrina is a very interesting case,
indeed. A natural calamity, that there should have been ample for-warning of and planning, preparation, & regimentation -
virtually non-existent. It's as if the public thought that the nanny-State mentality worked and waited for mother Government to
save them.
generallisimo April 5th, 2008, 06:01 PM

The actions of the local and federal governments are interesting but not what the media covered as ts inability to be the
Nanny.
What I find most interesting is how those who were prepared with food, generators, guns, fresh water, etc. were forced to turn
in their firearms without real cause and depending on location many were forced to leave the one sanctuary they had
prepared.
I agree many expected the calvary to roll in and suffered because of that idea. But those who were prepared were also
targeted as needy individuals when in fact they were not in need of government assistance.
SO....
If we know that in times of distress, (focus on economic) a nation birthed on credit and an upside down idea what a liability is
in comparison of an asset, will expect the Nanny State to take over and meet their needs. What does that condition do to alter
the dynamic of being the prepared one in such a crisis.
The reason I ask this is because I remember seeing these guys zip tied by police outside of their beautiful mansions in N.O.
Their offense was being prepared and protecting their property with their fire arms.
After the police gathered the firearms they moved on leaving these dudes without the means of protection.
Vitalis April 7th, 2008, 02:27 AM

The nanny state can't help us. We need the economy to collapse as a way to cull the herd of undesirables. Those who planned
ahead will survive, those who didn't, fuck em, they deserve to starve.
Just stockpile your chemicals and weapons now along with any other useful items and ride out the coming storm.

The fedgov DID pass a bill that prohibits the confiscation of firearms, lawfully owned (or any other lawfully owned material)
from citizens in an emergency. The backlash from that gun-grab was pretty strong. See Library of Congress: Katrina,
legislation in aftermath.
iHME April 8th, 2008, 08:32 AM

I think that for the first time something shitty is going to happen for real. Now food riots have started to appearing around the
world. Theres about 36 countries in some degree of food crisis and it is feared to expand to 33 countries, according to World
Bank Group (WBG). Egypt and India have restricted the exportation of rice to have enough for their own population. The price
of food is climbing in modern nations also, but we don't use 70 to 80 percent like Africans and some Asian countries of our
income to food so we are covered for higher prices. But what does happen when countries which depend on importation? In the
next few years we might see wars over food. I think that I'll buy some canned food for a at least weeks reserve. If for nothing
else it will be a investment that grows in value over time :rolleyes: , as the food prices probably keep on rising.
Alexires April 8th, 2008, 10:20 PM

iHME - Canned food is good for a while, but remember to stock up on the grain as well so that you have the ability to actually
support yourself. It would be good to be able to keep fertilized chicken eggs dormant.
I don't think you can after a brief search, but at the very least, keep some grain around to grow some plants, as well as
vegetable seeds to grow.
Ideally, you would have a patch of land big enough to have a large garden around to support yourself and whoever you decide
to bring with you. I would personally plant some blackberries or other kind of "weed" or hard to kill fruit producer out of the
way (not on your land if it is small). That way, you have SOMETHING to eat during the late spring/early summer. Also, they
produce a lot of pollen that can be used if you have bees as well.
I'm fortunate as there are a lot of fruit orchards around my area, and it is far from the city, so if the SHTF and I stay where I
am, there will be some food hanging around :rolleyes:.
Basically, you want something that you can just leave there and have it still be there when you have to move there (if you
aren't already living there).
This is one of those topics that have a lot of "if" in it.
To summarise my rambling:
If you live there, cultivate your garden.
If you do not live there and are planning to move there if the SHTF or as a kind of holiday get away, plant something that
doesn't need you around to take care of it. Wild fruit is good. Fruit trees are good as well.
Either way, stock up on non-perishable things (rotate cans if you can) and do NOT expect the fedgov to fix things or there to
be a semblance of society in the near future.
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

Look up WWII publications on "Victory Gardens", publications on Preserving and Canning and raising Rabbits, they're all good
to supplement your food stores.
EOD April 23rd, 2008, 05:35 PM

Food and the ability to produce more is one of the basic survival skills needed to survive a long term crisis. Having at least a
few weeks of food and water are essential to survive a short term crisis. Having the ability to defend oneself is an essential
survival principal for any crisis. Solar, wind, etc. power generation could be useful but if not used wisely could also create a
huge target for the desperate. Gold and silver are always a good thing to have. 1/10th ounce gold coins are useful and still
affordable for most. Silver is also affordable. Neither has ever been worth nothing. Both will be useful for bartering just as they
have been for thousands of years. I believe we are headed for another depression and with the Fed continuing to print billions
out of thin air to prop up failing financial organizations the bottom will hit probably sooner than later. You can't wait until things
start going really bad.

The issue with gold today is that it is very close to maintaining a four figure level (1000+). If & when a severe financial down
turn comes OR a SHTF scenario, precious metals will most likely get laughed at as a hold over from the very thing that ruined
the stability of one's regional economy. There may even be a backlash against dealing with precious metals.
If I were to barter with an object let it be utilitarian such as a knife, flashlight, radio, or batteries. They would cost little NOW,
be worth a Hell of a lot later, & could be maintained. A carton of batteries from a large crate would be worth quite a bit. A box
of Sony Pll radios now would cost about $20 per unit but be worth quite a bit in an emergency, as would flashlights, etc.
You can't do much with gold....but you could do all sorts of things with a flashlight that lights up a room.
-=HeX=- April 24th, 2008, 12:32 PM

Yes, that which holds value now till most certainly be worthless then. Money will be worth less than toilet paper, as it is nasty
and scratchy :D and is useless as a fuel. Banknotes do not burn good.
Alcohol, batteries, ammunition, knives, tents, guns, torches, gasoline, and food will be the new currency. Cash, cards, gold,
and such shall be useless. Tinned food and Hexamine fuel shall be invaluable as they serve many purposes. The tin con be
used as a grenade care and the Hexamine to make HMTD or RDX. The prepared chemist shall be king.

As to what to sell in bad times don't forget smokes, if you live near an indian reservation you can get them cheap, seal them
in an air tight container and then in the future when people are jonesing for a coffin nail you'll be able to make them pay
through the nose, also consider setting up a still.

I always wondered why people don't just grow their own tobacco. People spend so much time and effort growing weed that
growing tobacco can't be that much more difficult. I broached to someone I know that smokes a considerable amount of
cigarettes, apparently he considered this angle, but said it was too hard to dry it, cure it, cut it etc.
Such things take skill of course, but this is no more complicated than growing a good vegetable garden, or canning your own
preserves, yet people do that all the time.
My point is, having the skills to grow your own food, having seed stockpiles, making your own compost, etc. can really help you
out if need be to stretch what little funds you may have left. Ultimately food and water are our most important needs, being
able to satisfy those needs can help you survive.
I heard that 60% of all the food production in England during WWII was supplied by "victory gardens." These are small
gardens using every possible patch of earth you can get in cities and towns like window planters, backyard gardens, frontyard
gardens, patio gardens, balcony gardens... Most of the farmers were off at war, transportation became expensive, most
resources were going into the war effort, so people stretched their rations by growing their own produce where they lived.
I heard the price of rice went up 25% this week, and there is now global rationing except for the US (so far).
You can't beat having your own fresh produce, and it's all organic if you don't use pesticides.
I would love to have a big garden, but I don't like vegetables that much, and I don't want to spend the time weeding. If the
worst happens and food becomes scarce, I along with a lot of other people will have to grow my own. My meager garden skills
would mean a very hungry first winter for me.
Edit: I have not read most of the posts in this thread yet, I just saw Hirudinea's post about victory gardens. Great minds think
alike I suppose :)
Barnacles April 25th, 2008, 09:59 PM

I heard that Wal-Mart was rationing rice at its stores now. this could be in Canada only but I doubt that. If its true it most
likely includes the US, that is what I am guessing though.

I always wondered why people don't just grow their own tobacco. I broached to someone I know that smokes he said it was too
hard to dry it, cure it, cut it etc.
Such things take skill, but this is no more complicated than canning your own preserves, people do that all the time.
Some people do it, but most don't, the vast majority of people get everything they want at the store ready made and don't
have the time or inclination to learn the skills, which mean when a colapse comes those people who do have the skills will be
able to leverage them for their own benifit.
Having the skills to grow your own food, having seed stockpiles, making your own compost, etc. can really help you out if need
be to stretch what little funds you may have left.
Yep, and if you can produce surplus, well you'll have even more funds, or if your smart, barter, which isn't affected by inflation.
I heard that 60% of all the food production in England during WWII was supplied by "victory gardens." These are small
gardens using every possible patch of earth you can get in cities and towns like window planters, backyard gardens, frontyard
gardens, patio gardens, balcony gardens...
They plowed up public parks in London and other cities, and grew food in the heart of the city.
Most of the farmers were off at war, transportation became expensive, most resources were going into the war effort, so
people stretched their rations by growing their own produce where they lived.
Women were also conscripted into the "Land Army" to assist on planting, tending and harvesting the crops on farms, not that
that has much to do with this thread, but it makes you wonder what we'ed do nowadays with women in the army. ;)
You can't beat having your own fresh produce, and it's all organic if you don't use pesticides.
Plus it tastes better fresh off the vine then it ever could from the Supermarket.
If the worst happens and food becomes scarce, I along with a lot of other people will have to grow my own. My meager garden
skills would mean a very hungry first winter for me.
It makes me wonder if when times get hard some, less industrious, people will raid the gardens of those who do plant them,
or have people become so used to our modern society that they wouldn't even think they could get food anywhere else
besides the store?
I have not read most of the posts in this thread yet, I just saw Hirudinea's post about victory gardens. Great minds think alike
I suppose.
So how did we have the same idea? (That was a self-depricating crack I hope you realize. :) )
Kaydon April 26th, 2008, 09:40 PM

I don't see things getting too awful bad, but I could just be being optimistic. I'm relatively prepared if they do.
Plus it tastes better fresh off the vine then it ever could from the Supermarket.
I've actually had people disagree with that! Idiots.
It makes me wonder if when times get hard some, less industrious, people will raid the gardens of those who do plant them,
or have people become so used to our modern society that they wouldn't even think they could get food anywhere else
besides the store?
I am almost positive that a very large number of people will absolutely freak out and think they can not get food any other
way.
EOD April 27th, 2008, 08:18 PM

The issue with gold today is that it is very close to maintaining a four figure level (1000+). If & when a severe financial down
turn comes OR a SHTF scenario, precious metals will most likely get laughed at as a hold over from the very thing that ruined
the stability of one's regional economy. There may even be a backlash against dealing with precious metals.
If I were to barter with an object let it be utilitarian such as a knife, flashlight, radio, or batteries. They would cost little NOW,
be worth a Hell of a lot later, & could be maintained. A carton of batteries from a large crate would be worth quite a bit. A box
of Sony Pll radios now would cost about $20 per unit but be worth quite a bit in an emergency, as would flashlights, etc.
You can't do much with gold....but you could do all sorts of things with a flashlight that lights up a room.
Why would you believe this? Gold has never been valueless and never will. There are a bunch of people and many sites that
feel the exact opposite of your views. Gold ans silver will most likely drastically increase in price if our ecenomy collapses. Gold
and silver will be accepted as barter. There are amny people who have prepared and can/do grow more food than they can
eat. These same people probably have also stored many of the esentials they will need. As has been the case since it was
found Gold is easy to transport, much more so than a wagon full of batteries, etc. Gold will srill be the true currency of the
world. If we had stayed on the Gold standard we wouldn't be having the difficulty we are now with the Fiat currency. Gold and
silver have always held or increased value during times of war and economic collapse.
http://cmi-gold-silver.com/small-survival-gold-silver-coins.html
Coin silver for the worst-case scenario

Investors who buy silver and gold for survival purposes fear the worst. Those fears include the Federal Reserve printing so
many dollars that the dollar will become worthless, which is the history of all paper currencies not redeemable in gold or silver.
Fear of a financial meltdown, which would close banks as in Argentina and Paraguay in 2002, is another.
Argentineans and Paraguayans who had to foresight to bail out of the banking systems and convert their assets to gold or coin
silver were protected. Not only did banks close, but also when they reopened depositors were limited in the amount of money
they could withdraw. Meanwhile, the Argentinean peso and the Paraguayan guarani sank in value. Shortly after those crises,
Brazil defaulted on its international debt and its paper currency, the real, sank.
Those are the kinds of situations that investors who buy coin silver and small gold coins for survival purposes want to protect
against. In doing so, these investors buy silver and gold in forms that can be used for money or to barter for goods and
services.
Alexires April 28th, 2008, 08:46 AM

Why would you believe this? Gold has never been valueless and never will. There are a bunch of people and many sites that
feel the exact opposite of your views.
Because as far as metals go, gold is about as useless as they come. It's too soft to do anything with, so you can't make tools,
weapons or anything else useful. In the case of social collapse, there will be very few people that can afford to have anything
to do with gold and silver. Yes, there will be people that cling to it as an icon of ages past, but when people are starving
because they can't farm, or are freezing because they have no tools, food and tools will become worth more than gold. A
chicken could buy you a families help in ploughing your field. Some boards, a handful of nails and a hammer is worth the
world to a man that is freezing in the cold because he cannot repair his house.
Perhaps gold will never be worthless, but I would rather have tools, knowledge and the means to survive, than to rely on
others to value a metal that has no practical use.
If you have left over money, sure, buy some silver and gold, but I'd be making sure I had ALL the basics and not so basics I
can think of before I do so.
Who cares what everyone else thinks? Use the brain you were born with to think about things as opposed to relying on a bunch
of other people and sites to tell you what's right. A million kewls and a hundred texts will tell you to make C4 out of peanut
butter and KClO4 but that doesn't make it right does it?
monkeyboy May 2nd, 2008, 10:02 PM

Anybody here a fan of Square foot gardening?
http://www.amazon.com/Square-Foot-Gardening-Garden-Space/dp/1579548563/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209775806&sr=8-2
I have the book, sometime soon I'll try & scan it.
The basic concept is a real breakthrough. Why plant 50' or a 100' of each type of plant? Everybody does that. Then at harvest
time, everybody is trying to get rid of bushels of the same stuff.
Brief paraphrase:
Figure out how much you're going to use. Plant a only a few seeds, then every so often add a few more, so you get a
staggered harvest, of just a few plants. Much less time to take care of, too. He claims that a person can feed their self off 1 or
2 4'X4' beds. Talks about "building" the soil, too. Lots of good info.
If anybody already has a scanned copy, I'd love a copy. Then when people want to borrow my copy, I can just give them a pdf.
Tobacco info
Instructions:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AA260
http://www.backfortytobacco.com/
seeds:
http://www.seedman.com/Tobacco.htm
Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM3lMyU8k8g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4XQTwTCY-g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km3YAMwHnT0
Doesn't look that hard.
Didn't realize the leaves were that big.
Charles Owlen Picket May 3rd, 2008, 10:51 AM

Since this thread is all about "Financial Depression Preparedness" & we all have heartfelt opinions regarding same I would like
to offer a prediction which I would hope someone would remember or at least ponder as the future unfolds....
If gasoline reaches well over $4 a gallon in the USA, the "trickle down" effect will result in a serious Depression (the financial
type, I know many people will also get the Blues too)....Not a Recession, mind you, but a full blown serious problem! All time
sensitive freight, perishables, & household goods moves by truck at one point or another. The rising cost of gas & diesel will
push the cost of nearly everything one uses nearly everyday to higher levels (that includes FOOD especially!). The result will
(obviously) be a commensurate shift to paying for movement, not the commodity & prices will not be able to keep pace; the
average worker will be trying to work for transportation costs.
Eventually the costs will outstrip the value and the Dollar, Pound, & Euro will mean nothing. - WHEN this happens (as it did in
the past) PANIC will be the first response, as most people have their savings in a format that will be directly affected by a
vicious devaluation. When Stocks become meaningless, investors turn to other financial products & the very essence of the
economy becomes turned on it's head.
The biggest challenge facing Western leaders is NOT foreign policy but energy policy & I'm fearful that they haven't a
clue....Thus a Financial Depression is almost assured at the point of the price of fuel being beyond the means of personal
production.
Alexires May 7th, 2008, 12:17 AM

Certainly Charles, that is a very grave problem facing us in the near future. When one starts to look for solutions to the
problem of rising fuel cost, we uncover even more problems.
Let's say we start to burn ethanol as opposed to petrol. Ethanol, while being a renewable resource, comes from fermenting
grain. This means that suddenly grain that would otherwise be used for food is being used for fuel, thus increasing food prices
again as more and more land is devoted to grain and more and more grain is being used for fuel.
Rather a vicious cycle. Unless something miraculous happens in the next couple of years, we are in the shit well and truly.
generallisimo May 7th, 2008, 01:19 AM

Anybody here a fan of Square foot gardening?
http://www.amazon.com/Square-Foot-Gardening-Garden-Space/dp/1579548563/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209775806&sr=8-2
I have the book, sometime soon I'll try & scan it.
Absolutely I would love to get my hands on that book.
I have been surprised by "heavy hitters" input on this thread started by a new guy like me. It seems to present a problem
that many want to help solve. I like the ambiguous nature of the original question because of where the thread has stretched
to include total breakdown in society and the tightening of budgets.
With that said I have read quite a bit on the subject including the American Depression and the aftermath. The comment
about raising rabbits made me look into the details and learn how rabbit is the "best" meat going and has the highest
feed:meat ratio of all meats.
It also got me looking into gardening. That led me to SPIN farming. Small Plot Intensive farming. To the point where I
convinced a friend to plow up his yard and plant a crop accordingly.
It has also led me to long term storing flour and other food stuffs.
I hope more folks add more information to this thread and that more people add more links. I wanted to express my
appreciation for the members of this forum and for the administrators for opening it back up to new guys like myself.

That is what we like to hear, generallisimo! We like to hear that someone has thought about this and, as opposed to treating
it like a simple thought experiment, has actually started to prepare and is taking the advice of The Forum.
I too would like to hear more about SPIN farming. While I have some land, there is nothing better than to minimise input to
maximise output.... that's what we are about after all. In the mean time, have a look at this site (http://journeytoforever.org/
garden_sqft.html) which contains tips and descriptions of small fertile gardens. This site (http://pbriscoe.com/2007/05/22/
howto-create-a-square-foot-garden) also has hints and tips on square foot gardening, following the author through his sq.ft
gardening experience.
Charles Owlen Picket May 7th, 2008, 11:26 AM

....Ethanol, while being a renewable resource, comes from fermenting grain. This means that suddenly grain that would
otherwise be used for food is being used for fuel, thus increasing food prices again as more and more land is devoted to grain
and more and more grain is being used for fuel.
This is actually a well trodden path, spoken of time and again by many in the media. However, it's not accurate in it's
exclusivity. Ethanol does not require grain....but almost any sugar! The "grain" idea had come from those who want to
supplement farming interests but when you think about it ethanol could be produced from almost anything that would ferment
(it's not for drinking, but fuel!) - Think of "Pruno" made in prisons... One could make ethanol from garbage waste material.
There may be many other reasons why the public is sold on the need for grain (or corn more often) to make ethanol.
We could unquestionably make ethanol from other materials. We could make hydrogen even easier. Those who know me,
know I am not a conspiracy-oriented individual. But I think there are many who want to suppress the alternative fuel concepts
with innuendo of "just staying the course".....which will end up with a financial tragedy. I know that I myself have bought into it
from time to time.
There are always alternatives to most everything but yet with the concepts of energy manufacture, I believe that so much
money exists in the status quo that we have been sold on the futility of really moving in another direction.
I even notice that in marketing there is a subtle element of pathetic timidity in cars that employ anything but "big iron" gas
power. That automobiles that use another source of fuel will never give the "feel & power" of a "muscle car". What IF there was
such a bad son of a bitch? Would the buying public want such a thing? I believe that so much effective marketing has been
employed, that it would not sell.
Where I live many people drive trucks. The mid-size & larger truck drinks gas. But yet people buy them. They can't afford to
go anywhere but the idea of buying a little reliable Jap truck (or even the larger Asian trucks for that matter) would make them
cringe....THAT'S EFFECTIVE MARKETING! When you suffer because you believe you won't be happy with an alternative, even if
it's logical; that's a force to be reckoned with.
-=We are not a market driven economy....we are a marketing driven economy!=-
monkeyboy May 7th, 2008, 12:29 PM
There may be many other reasons why the public is sold on the need for grain (or corn more often) to make ethanol.
Somewhere around here I have book put out by Mother Earth News back in the '70s. Makes the claim that combining alcohol &
gasoline is a really stupid idea. When you do, you need 190-195 proof. If you run off straight alcohol, they claim you can get
away with 130-135 proof. Which can be produced a whole lot cheaper...
Kaydon May 7th, 2008, 01:23 PM

Same thing where I live.
I have 3 small half-ton pickups, and 2 full-size pickups.
Gas prices have yet to affect my wallet.

While I certainly agree with what you are saying Charles, we are talking about money (essentially here) and what would be
easier? To collect vegetable scraps, wood pulp and other sugar containing materials and attempt to ferment them, or to simply
buy hundreds of tonnes of grain and ferment that?
We both know what SHOULD be done.
How hard would it be to have floating solar panels on the ocean that crack water into H2 which is then pumped to shore like an
oil rig, or to perhaps have solar panels on the roof of your house that crack water into H2 and hold it in a lithium hydride
matrix where you simply fill your car up at night, and all for the price of water....
But as you have said, there has been too much money invested in current technology for them to give that away yet. It's like
the gambler that figures he has hundreds of dollars in the pot, so what is another $50 even though he is betting on a pair of
twos.
generallisimo May 9th, 2008, 06:41 PM

With that said...does this book on using oxy-hydrogen for fuel make sense.
http://rapidshare.com/files/113122057/Run_a_car_on_water.zip
ETCS (Ret) May 9th, 2008, 09:45 PM

Charles said (#56 bove): "Those who know me, know I am not a conspiracy-oriented individual."
Charles, would you elaborate on that please? I can't imagine what that might mean.
Generallisimo,
The book you've referenced advocates the construction of an Oxy-Hydrogen generator that is excessively complex.
Far better alternatives are available completely free of charge (Public Domain):
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/ (Look under Booster Construction Plans)
http://www.rexresearch.com/1index.htm (A wealth of possibilities - you'll spend a lot of time here!)
http://panaceauniversity.org/
The beneficial effects of boosting an automobile engine with Hydroxy gas are well established. Do some research first before
you decide to build a generator and you'll not be tempted to buy one from some of the unscrupulous sources. Save your hard
earned financial instruments!
Hirudinea May 10th, 2008, 09:01 PM

Ethanol does not require grain....but almost any sugar! The "grain" idea had come from those who want to supplement
farming interests but when you think about it ethanol could be produced from almost anything that would ferment (it's not for
drinking, but fuel!) There may be many other reasons why the public is sold on the need for grain (or corn more often) to
make ethanol.
The Farm Lobby in the U.S. is very powerful and well entrenched, and making ethanol from corn is just another way to subidise
farmers for growing grain. (And I'm not down on farmers, just market distroting subdises.)
We could unquestionably make ethanol from other materials. We could make hydrogen even easier.;/quote]
We could make methane as easy as shit! Imagine how much potential energy is wasted in sewage treatment plants every day!
[quote] Those who know me, know I am not a conspiracy-oriented individual. But I think there are many who want to suppress
the alternative fuel concepts with innuendo of "just staying the course".....which will end up with a financial tragedy. I know that
I myself have bought into it from time to time.
Its just human nature.

I even notice that in marketing there is a subtle element of pathetic timidity in cars that employ anything but "big iron" gas
power. That automobiles that use another source of fuel will never give the "feel & power" of a "muscle car". What IF there was
such a bad son of a bitch? Would the buying public want such a thing? I believe that so much effective marketing has been
employed, that it would not sell.
http://www.teslamotors.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car
We just have to popularise the saying "Big car, small dick", and you'll see cars shrink fast enough! :D

Out of a sense of respect I replied to some of you via PM and what's more I don't want to hijack this thread. Many of you have
supplanted very good methods of dealing with this issue. If indeed this IS a "marketing driven economy" as I (& quite a few
others believe) then the concept of reversing the process may be a damn good technique.
Personally I was impressed with the marketing message of "Big car - Little dick" Just the mere mention of the size of a phallus
has a crushing impact on some (I can't imagine why....). I've just recently seen it in action. My Heavens; what power that issue
has! Just the simple statement of the EXISTENCE of a penis smaller than others causes all sorts of reactive anxiety.
Just like "The X-Files"; I think the answers are out there. But if whomever is elected President does NOT deal with the energy
issue as a National priority, we will suffer a Depression that will rival or sweep aside the Crash of 1929. What marketable object
does NOT get transported by a gas or diesel powered vehicle in it's process from creation to sale? I don't know about most of
you but with gas now at $3.50 & more even getting to appointments is an exercise is financial processing. A Company car &
gas is now a seriously major perk & adds a great deal to one's wage.
In an analogy, the biggest issue with "getting guns off the streets of America" is that there are so many out there.....Similarity
exists with automobiles! The energy issue complexity (as I see it) is that all these gasoline-oriented vehicles are already in
use. The quandary is what mechanism would be used to CONVERT to alternatives, not build a new one from the ground up.
The conversion process is actually the cornerstone as I see it.
Should someone find a CONVERSION concept.....THAT would not only be the "future Henry Ford" but would make that person
of company one of the wealthiest on earth. And THIS issue would be where any possible "conspiracy" agenda may have actual
validity......There are many interests to maintain the Status Quo. Such a conversion would threaten the interests of Big Oil.
Thus the Country Clubs would be rife with woe & angst. Perhaps even independent of one another, many interests want to
keep alive the wastage and interaction we now have.
Bugger May 12th, 2008, 07:12 PM

The easiest conversion of all those gasoline-powered vehicles would be with pressure tanks to run on natural gas, which is
usually much cheaper than liquid petroleum fractions, or, where available, sewage or landfill gas which is also mostly methane.
An alternative using basically the same tanks and equipment would be hydrogen, produced electrolytically from mains
electricity or better still solar or wind power, although different materials would have to be used for the connecting hoses and
pipework because of the greater diffusivity of hydrogen. In the 1930s Depression and in Europe during the war, cars were also
converted to make coal gas or wood gas from coal or wood, and store it on-board, the combustible product in it being mostly
carbon monoxide with a smaller amount of hydrogen, and possibly formaldehyde.
More expensively, the engines in gasoline-powered cars could be replaced with electric motors powered from batteries.
Electricity generation from sources other than oil would have to be increased to cover this. But, for pure electrics (not hybrid
vehicles), the batteries would have to have a range of at least 100 km between recharges, and not require replacing every 3
years or so of average use which even the best present deep-cycle lead-acid batteries need. Besides, it may create an
excessive demand for any rare metals needed to make the batteries.
Diesel trains and ships will have to be made to run on vegetable oils ("biodiesel"), or else replaced with steam engines
running on coal or wood, or with electric trains powered from overhead wires (which many in Europe and Japan already are).

In an analogy, the biggest issue with "getting guns off the streets of America" is that there are so many out there.....Similarity
exists with automobiles! The energy issue complexity (as I see it) is that all these gasoline-oriented vehicles are already in
use. The quandary is what mechanism would be used to CONVERT to alternatives, not build a new one from the ground up.
The conversion process is actually the cornerstone as I see it.
The one problem with that analogy is that while a well maintained gun can last for over 50 years (eg. Moison-Nagants sold
surplus from WWII) but most cars will be rusted our wrecks in 20 years, so if we stop producing gasoline only internal
combustion engine cars NOW in 20 years 95% would be gone, but conversion is still a good idea.
The easiest conversion of all those gasoline-powered vehicles would be with pressure tanks to run on natural gas, which is
usually much cheaper than liquid petroleum fractions, or, where available, sewage or landfill gas which is also mostly methane.
Many cabs in Toronto run on natural gas, and there used to be a programme to help pay for vehicle conversions from the
government, but not now. Wish I had converted. This and other types on conversion could tide us over until the present
generation of cars rusts out.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > How nbk2000 spent his spring
break
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Bert March 22nd, 2008, 09:30 PM

A few years back, I recall a wo rk of speculative fiction by nbk200 0 involving spring break college idiots, al Q ueda, le wisite/
m u s t a r d g a s a n d g e n eral m ayhem. I can't find it after repetitive searches of both the foru m and google- Anyone know where it
has got to???
BlackFalcoN March 22nd, 2008, 10:18 PM

W ell, it definitely isn't the only thread that disappeared lately from the forum .
I reckon you should think along the lines of 'recent events' + 'canada' + 'possible incrim in ating evidence' ;)
Mr Science March 23rd, 2008, 12:45 AM

I can im agine everything being done is for the sake of covering NBK's ass (rem ember his RTPB rules?). This is just to protect
him if/when he goes to trial.
-=HeX=- March 26th, 2008, 11:18 AM

I found it! Go to www.roguesci.org/theforum/archive/index.php then go to the water cooler. Its on page two. I can access it via
m y cell phone.
Otherwise search for 'FICTION: The Job, Part 2'. That is how I found it. Its dam n g o o d !
Has anybody got a copy of his RTPB files? I lost mine thanks to a virus and cant find it an ywhere.

N o n e o f n b k ' s t h r e a d s h a v e g o n e a n y w h e r e . T h at would not serve any pu r p o s e b e c a u s e I a m s u r e t h e f e d g o v a l r e a d y h a s a n
archive of everything. W hy deprive the rest of the world the wit a nd wisdo m o f n b k ?
W ater C ooler threads are not indexed by the search engine so they don't pollute the results with false positives. You can use
the google search though.
T h e t h r e a d o f the story is here:

spetsnaz08 April 3rd, 2008, 12:41 PM

Mega where is the old story about the bank job ?
I think it was by written nbk20 00 not too sure tho.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > A Deer Just Killed my Car
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So I was driving home with my wife from a nice Easter dinner with the family. We had been shooting all day and making exploding targets before dinner, it was a wonderful
time (My family is crazy :D). It had just gotten dark and we were discussing the schedual for tomorrow and things that needed to be done. I was going about 65 mph in a
55mph zone, as I usually go 10 over. Before I could blink, hit the breaks, swerve or even say "Oh Shit!", a deer sprinted in front of the car.
It was perfect timing and I hit the fucker dead on, mid gallop. There was the sound of crunching bones, shattering glass, and metal on pavement. Pieces of my Honda Accord
went flying through the night air, along with blood, fur, and radiator fluid. I didn't slam on the breaks, I just pulled over in the shoulder and said something to the effect of "Son
of a bitch". My wife was rather surprised but managed to kind of laugh.
I went to inspect the damage, although it was dark. All but one of the head lights were completely smashed. The front end was caved in and the smell of radiator fluid in the
air was strong. The power stearing was also destroyed. The bumper itself (that metal bar accross the front of the vehicle, not the bumper cover), was incredibly still in tact. The
hood was completely smashed. I walked about 150m back to look at the deer. It was, needless to say, dead. I kicked it and said "Look at you now bitch!". I then called my
insurance company and awaited the cops to arrive. I was however able to drive it home, max 40 mph.
The funny thing is, I've hit a deer going just as fast with an SUV that had a brush guard. It simply ran the deer over, no damage what-so-ever to the vehicle. Another time, I
hit a deer with a different SUV, and it sent the deer flying into the ditch, rather amusing actually. No damage to that car either. A Honda Accord sedan is a different story
however.
So in short, I'm just paying a 500$ deductable and getting a free rental car. Not a bad deal, but it sure is a pain in the ass, as I can't get to class this morning. Who else here
has a hit something with their car? I'm curious to hear, since this experience has really got me worked up. I hate deer, and I'm going on a crusade to kill them all...
EDIT: Here are some pictures too.

pic1 (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/DSC05336.jpg)
Barnacles March 24th, 2008, 05:31 PM

Once some friends and I were driving through the country at night doing about 100 km per hour (61MPH~) , I was in the back, and looking out the window when I saw what
looked like a 10 foot tall man in a trench coat with antenna like protrusions coming off the head, like a monster almost. It basically looked like it was going as fast as us but I
guess it was running from the side of the road and ran into my back side door and scared the f'ing shit out of me. No damage and it ran away.

I'd imagine that Honda accord would be designed to buckle when hitting an organic body as a safety feature intended to cushion the blow and increase the chances of survival.
It's too bad really. :(

At least you didn't wreck your car the same way I recked my truck over the weekend. :( :(
a3990918 March 24th, 2008, 07:29 PM

I hit a deer about 12-13 yrs ago up by St. Louis, Mo. Was on a 4 lane hi-way about 11 pm, 80mph and in heavy traffic. All of a sudden this fucker comes running up out of a
stand of trees, thru the ditch and across the shoulder. With the traffic as heavy as it was I couldn't swerve but a ft or 2 to the left.
The Caprice I was driving caught the deer's head right in the headlight area. That didn't do much damage just a busted headlight and trim, but, the impact spun the deer's
body around ind into the fender. The fender was smashed in so far that I couldn't turn the wheel without the tire rubbing.:( Also pushed it back far enough to keep the Pass.
door from opening.
After getting the car stopped we got out a hunting knife and were going to field dress the deer and then call the Game Warden.
Only problem was we had hit the deer about 25 yds from a drainage ditch that had concrete barriers set up about 24" from the roadway. When we got stopped we were on the
otherside of the ditch. Wasn't anyway in Hell I was going to risk getting hit to retrieve that carcass. :mad:
Long story short, called the Hi-Way patrol, asked them to inform Game Warden as to the carcasses location and went home. $2200 in damages...
Shadowmartyr March 24th, 2008, 08:36 PM

Not to bad compared to what I've seen...you're lucky it didn't go through the glass and hit you, and while it was still alive kicking you in the process (there was a story in the
local paper how a lady was -kicked- to death by a deer that went through the windshield, kind of tragic really ).
I don't know where you are from but around here in Missouri the wildlife is everywhere, and unfortunately a lot of people get injured/die from hitting them. And you seem
some pretty nasty ones, a lot of semis come through here on the rural roads, peterbilts with deer guards on them, big spikey things, and they will literally make the deer
explode its kind of funny to watch.
Anyways hope you get your car fixed. :)
Emil March 24th, 2008, 08:55 PM

O dear...... Looks like that deer made sure he did he some damaged before passing onto another life.
Sorry to hear that man but the main thing everyone in the car was alright.
The biggest thing I've hit was a fox. Was the size of a medium to large dog. Was probs going about 40mph on a country road. All of a sudden the little fucker pops out. My
mate said "Look out"!
With out any time to react I ran straight over it lol. The car went up in the air slighty like a big bump and that was it. The pile of mess behind me was just roadkill for the
hungry crows. No damage to my car though lol :cool:
However a fox and a deer are in completely different catagories. I'm sure the front end of my car would of crumpled up just as much as yours had it been a deer I hit, but
hey... there ain't no deer where I'm from! lol.
Hope you get that fixed... poor Honda accord :(

http://www.theretrovert.com/maingrafx/DontKillSplash.jpg
Sorry, when I saw it I just couldn't resist. :D

Ha very funny... :p
You guys should see the bad ass car the rental place gave me. Its a Mazda minivan. Hells yeah. I was thinking about filling it with kids soccer gear and putting a "I Heart
Soccer" bumper sticker on it.
Charles Owlen Picket March 26th, 2008, 11:36 AM

Deer are really tragically stupid (as are bovine). I am really careful as sometimes I drive a bike and if I hit a deer with that - I perish with the deer. There's nothing you can do
about it. I believe as they are so fucking stupid they will freeze and then RUN like a fucking panic stricken girl right into you. I once had one run at my vehicle but it missed. I
was driving down a lone road and I saw it out of the corner of my eye; it seemed to run BEHIND me! I have seen others hit deer. One time a woman with a young child and
the thing was still alive, as she hit it while going slower than the speed limit. I told the kid to turn away and dispatched the deer (no shit) and kept it. We have a place in town
that butchers game animals for super cheap if you use their facilities and will smoke 'em. I made a bunch of jerky for about 2 cents a pound. I still have some 3 years later!
That stuff is good if you use Teriaki sauce and hot peppers.
Shadowmartyr 's story about the thing going through the windshield may happen MORE OFTEN than many would believe! I think I actually read that very story or one so close
as to be right on the money. The fucking thing is a prey animal and therefore stupid....Jesus, I hate that sort of crap.
I would have kicked it too.
gaussincarnate March 26th, 2008, 03:25 PM

I have actually know a few people who have been hit by deer, as in they were stopped or going really slowly and were blindsided by deer. Not only are they dumb enough to
sit there and let you hit them, now they are actually running at cars from the side or from behind.
On an entirely unrelated note, have any of you ever seen that video of the deer that ran into someone's house (via sliding glass doors) and just wrecked the inside of the
house? That would have to be one of the most suprising things that could ever happen to you, aside from that time when a guy woke up with a bear in his house and he killed
it with a kitchen knife.

It happens so much here that the legislature passed a law that allowed us the right to keep and eat our road kill.
So all this talk is making me hungry.
ONLY March 27th, 2008, 03:52 PM

A friend of mine hit a horse doing 45 in a explorer totaled the truck and busted him up pretty bad.
rangegal March 31st, 2008, 11:06 PM

Some guy hit a deer in front of my house just 10 minutes ago. Stupid thing darted across the road up a steep hill at which point the guy hit the brakes and slowed down, but
not enough I guess. The thing then ran back down the hill and right back in front of the car.

Hey it's fucking Spring; this shit is going to happen just like rattlesnakes will be out in force in Summer. Save any speed for the highway and in rural areas, be super careful. I
also hope that all you that have kids or younger siblings - make sure they use a seatbelt, etc.....
tmp April 8th, 2008, 02:35 PM

Those things are a nuisance in my area. Last summer, one of my drivers, in a
van hit one on the passenger corner. She came back pretty upset as the
deer ran off after the impact. There wasn't even a scrape on the van. I told
her not to worry because Bambi probably just got his antlers clipped. :D

Charles - I know where you are coming from. I ride a bike as well, and it's scary stuff sometimes. Over here we don't have deer, but we have kangaroos and koalas. Shit, if
you hit either (in a car or a bike) you are toast. Koalas are tough little bastards that will rip shit out of the bottom of your car, or fuck you up on a bike.
Kangaroos will jump back up and kick you. You may think that is funny, but those things can jump 10m+ in length, and getting kicked by those legs are not funny in the
slightest.
It's how the male kangaroos fight. They sit back on their tails and kick at each other, and getting kicked like that will knock you the fuck down.
Actually, funny story about that. Girlfriends parents were driving home one night and hit a kangaroo. Luckily they managed to just nudge it up onto the bonnet. Girlfriends dad
got out to make sure it was ok, and the stunned fucker kicked him (it was lying on the ground) and knocked his feet out.
He'd had a few drinks, so in true aussie style, stands up (by this time the roo had stood up too) and starts a punch up with it. After trading a few hits, he gets the upper hand
pounds crap out of it, grabs it by its tale and drags it off the road and throws it into a ditch :D
Fucking roos. Get motorcyclists that him them, cut the roo in half, and totals the bike, rider, anything else around. :eek:

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > -If- a NW O came, what would
you do?
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Shadowmartyr March 24th, 2008, 09:04 PM

So just browsing around the internet has anyon e else read up on what the NW O is, how its taking place, and if its even real?
I looked around for inform ation on the NW O just because after thinking for awhile about things that were going on in politics,
listening to what politicians we re saying and current events along side it, and for some reason, things just don't seem ......rig ht.
Its alm ost like your d aily news is all faked and put on for show. A festival of fabrication if you will. O f course if these m e d i a
outlets are controlled and censor O NLY , and release ONLY, what they want people to hear, would it be that hard to b rainwash a
nation?
If people are to stupid to connect the dots and think for themselves, it wouldn't b e hard at all; and for the m ost part just fro m
listening to people, if it conflicts with what C NN, Fox, or NBC has to say "its wrong", because they "always get the facts straight".
If all the above is true about m edia brainwashing, and how its used to control us and m anipulate us, and there was a secret
agenda like this in place wouldn't it seem l o g i c a l t o a l s o b e l i e v e t h e d e c i s i o n s w e m a k e a s a p e o p l e a r e n e a r l y s o m e t h i n g f o r
us to keep us busy, while the real people behind the scenes are actually the ones choosin g laws, presidents, people in
powerful positions; perhaps the sam e individuals that have the groups agenda as their main priority? O f co urse if there was
such a secret com mittee around, they obviously would not let som ebody into the office of the most influential and powerful
country in the world if they did not agree with there "plan", right?
Maybe I just do to m uch speculating..
So, considering this, that the m e d i a i s a c o n t r o l l e d p r o p a g a n d a m achine that feeds us "fabricated facts" by the NW O g r o u p ,
and the most influential countries in the world are pretty m uch controlled by the g roup, what is left?
W ell if your going to m ake even more money, you would want countries to form one super country or continent, with a currency
that was worth a lot as well; kind of like the European Union (the EU was the precursor of a banker in the Rockefelle r fam ily by
the way, afte r he spread lies about an im pending stock market crash the stocks plum m e t e d , a n d h e b o u g h t o u t a l l o f t h e
stocks owned at the time and pretty m uch controlled Europe and set forth plannin g the early stages of what would becom e t h e
current EU).
And pretty soon to be North Am erican Union with the "Am ero"?
http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/North_Am erican_U nion
Note that the wiki attem pts to disprove m any of the supposed conspiracy theories, but we've seen it done before with the EU
and the "Euro".
But if this was all true and in the future som e k ind of radical globalist group did com p l e t e t h e r e p l a n s a n d m a d e m uch of north
and south america one country, how would you deal with it?
W ould you start a resistance against this im perialistic state? I don't know m y s e l f , I w o u l d a l m o s t b e t e m p t e d t o d o s o m ething
of that sort if it turned out to be reality..

1/3 will be killed
1/3 will die because of disease. (Internm ent ca m p s )
1/3 will flee to the wilderness.
I plan to be in the wilderness 1/3. W ill not take the rfid or whate ver the mark is. And I will kill any m ark taker.

I would like to be in the wilderness too . B e f o r e I h e a d e d o u t t o t h e m ountains though, I would steal about 5,000 rounds of
5 . 5 6 a n d s o m e . 4 5 A C P a n d . 3 0 8 , l o a d u p a l l o f m y e n e r g e t i c m aterials, some food and water treatm e n t e q u i p m e n t , a n d t h e n
leave. I would have to steal a Ford Bro nco or som ething too.
Its hard to say how it would go from th ere, but I would probably join whatever resistance there was, or start one, to fight
against im perialism . Hopefully I would die in a heroic shoot out where I was the last m a n s t a n d i n g a n d a s I c h a r g e d t h e e n e m y
with my pock e t k n i f e b e c a u s e I h a d l o n g a g o r a n o u t o f a m mo, I am cut down in a hail of gunfire. Either that or the Lord
returns to incur judgm ent on mankind and everyone dies that way. ;)
akrylic87 March 29th, 2008, 06:09 PM

I believe the nwo is a reality and possibly one within the next 10 years or so. The people will however not b e aware of the
worlds transformation until its too late. there are som e g o o d m o vies out there that describe intricate plans for the nwo but m y
personal favorite is zeitgeist. I like that movie because it covers the religious, political, an d e c o n o m ic control that powerful
individuals use to control their people also called eugen ics, as well as m o v i e s f r o m A l e x J o n e s a l l o f t h e s e m o v i e s c a n b e s e e n
o n G o o g l e v i d e o f o r f r e e , t h o s e m ovies will cover everything I would say here and in m uch a more interesting fashio n.
Zer4tul March 30th, 2008, 01:46 AM

I'm not going to say m uch, but m ay I ask just how m any tim e s y o u h a v e r e a d t h e b o o k 1 9 8 4 ? y o u s o u n d l i k e G e o r g e O r w e l l
him self :rolleyes:
iHME March 30th, 2008, 06:27 PM

T h e N W O stuff m i g h t h a v e s o m e potential. After all it seem s that the EU wants to be more like the USA. Th e EU will soon have
it own president and m inisters. It is on ly a m ater of time. Even now the EU legistation surpasses the local o n e s . A n d t h e
s m a ller countries can't resist the laws they don't like. EU will also have it own army the so called "rapid resp onse unit". I'd say
that it is m ildly frightening. Theres plenty of forest to hide in here. Too b ad that theres no m ounta i n s . T h e h i g h e s t o n e i s m e r e
1 , 5 k m a n d i t s m ore like a hill. W ell we h a v e g u n s a n d s p a c e ? W h a t e l s e d o y o u n e e d ?
simply RED March 31st, 2008, 10:34 AM

NW O is alrea dy a fact. 100% control !
The frog has already been boiled and now they just eat it...
N o t h i n g c o u l d b e d o n e , b e c a u s e p e o p l e l i k e t o b e c o n t r o l l e d a n d s p o o n - f e d b y t h e m e d i a . W hat th ey hate is to think and act.

There is no way to ne gotiate with them because nobody is innocent! W hile TV screens becom e f l a t , p e o p l e b e c o m e fat ass,
selfish and lazy. Welcome to McDonald's Earth.
Ham burgers happened to be stronger than nuclear weapons.
Go to the forest if you want, nothing will change. People will continue to live their selfish lives and no one will follow you. It is
q u e s t i o n a b l e that we can find even 50 000 soldiers on our side from the whole Ea rth... In the case of resistance, it m a y b e
already too late.
Nothing will change till there is blood on the asphalt !
Rbick March 31st, 2008, 12:27 PM

W ell... What are we g o n n a d o a b o u t i t ?
simply RED March 31st, 2008, 03:01 PM

I don't know for you, but I personally can not d o anything, because I live in the e astern Europe, th e shit hole of the world. Any
resistance here is useless, as everyone is fascinated by the Bush's way o f life and the big macs.
I tried to move anywhere else, where the situation is no t so com pletely sad and desperate (is it), but failed in this attem pt.
Barnacles March 31st, 2008, 06:00 PM

I was watching this experimen t called " Stanford Prison Experim e n t 1 9 7 1 "
I a m sure a few peop le here could figure out what could result of such things and how it could prove usefull to organizations
like NWO.
Description
Dr. Zim bardo's Stanford Unive rsity Prison Experim ent showing how "normal" "good" people can be transformed quickly under
certain situations and conditions.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dc4_11 7 5 8 4 4 1 7 5
It is really interesting, I wonder if the governm ents of the world were watching this with gle e . I t h a s s o m e startling implications.
I liked this one also called asch's conformity experimen t...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5fa_118657709 3 T h i s a l s o c o u l d h a v e s o m e startling im plications. I was thinking about how the
government could induce conform ity non-violently with this using controlled situations and plants (agents), It would be hard to
o u t n u m b e r p eople 5-1 or whatever with plants, but they could put individuals in situations they con trol and gradually overtim e
indu ce conformity on a m assive population wide scale.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > New Restrictions on
Nitromethane in the U.S.?
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Vitalis March 31st, 2008, 06:56 PM

I just receive d word from the guy I bought Nitro from that there are new restrictions on the 99.9% Nitro and he can't get it for
m e a n y m ore.
I h a v e n ' t b e e n a b l e t o f i n d a n y information on this anywhere else and was wondering if anyone else had heard of any new
restrictions?

MANY tim e s m i d d l e m e n ( e s p e cially with chem icals or related materials) h a v e s o m e o n e t e l l t h e m t o " c o o l i t " a n d t h e y m a k e u p
s o m e story. This is occasionally done to m ilk MORE $$$ from a l a s t s a l e . T h e y o f t e n b e l i e v e t h e m s e l v e s t o b e i n p o t e n t i a l
trouble or at risk & thus curtail their sales, etc..... And m a k e u p s o m e BS in the process. O R it m ay be that THEY were told that
s o m ething is no longer available for am b i g u o u s r e a s o n s .
99 is not 95%....TTBoMK 95 is still ava ilable , etc. There are varying laws (Fed & State) that m a y n e e d t o b e r e s e a r c h e d b u t t h e
use of 'fuel" grade NM has not been too m uch of an issue. But on a State level you may have a separate issue.
N M i s n o t e x p l o s i v e a n d h a s n o shipping restrictions tha t gasolin e d o e s n o t h a v e . . . H O W EVER , there can be new legislation

passed every day & I MAY BE W RONG. -> Nothing is posted rega rding this issue that I can find.
I have long said that what you can buy today; you had better hoard because it may not be availab le tom orrow! Fuel grade NM
b e b e i n t h e s a m e boat with 9 9%. Al powder will eventually be non-existent, as will MO ST energetic related chem icals. Right
now there is no restrictions on MANY energetic precursors; if we have another tragedy....kiss it goodbye. Notice the flow of
legislation....it occurs AFTER a a tragedy (such as the assassinations in 1 968 in the U SA & the school shootings in AUS.)
Many things "energetic" gettin g m uch harder to find. The general thrust toward energy conservation has m a d e H I G H V O LTAGE
m aterials MU CH harder to find. Now that m onitors and TV's are going flat screen, you won't be able to even find any flyback
transform ers anymore (let alo ne any neon tran sformers)!!!!
My point here is that while NM (@ 99% or 95%) m ay be sim ply tougher to access...it MAY be legislated at a State level. If that
has started....it will become as difficult to find as a pound of phosphorus & realga r (or HgNO3). Both gone for two distinct
reasons. If you have a gallon of NM....I would hold on to it and not waste it what so ever. If I were someone with unique items
stashed away, I would save th em, trea ting them like po tential barter material.
Vitalis April 1st, 2008, 04:47 PM

Sounds like that could be what's happening here. I'm g l a d I r e a l i z e d I n e e d e d t o h o a r d y e a r s a g o , t h a t ' s g o o d a d v i c e .
MetalAndy April 2nd, 2008, 12:58 AM

They really a re effectively ban n i n g a m m onium nitrate, so nitrom e t h a n e c a n ' t b e t o o f a r b e h i n d . S e e H . R . 1 6 8 0 a t
www.govtrack . u s / . E v e r y t h i n g t h e g o v e r n m e n t d o e s p i s s e s m e o f f .
Logic Probe May 2nd, 2008, 12:12 AM

If th at has started....it will become as difficult to find as a pound of phosphorus & realgar (or HgNO 3).
I was about to post that you were right about phosphorus and m ercurous anything, but that Skylighter still has realgar, but I
just checked, and I would have been wr... wroo... less than correct! Even United Nuclear isn't listing it, and he carries som e iffy
goods (bless him!).
T h i s s e r i o u s l y s u c k s , a n d e v e n t h o u g h s u c k i n g c a n b e q uite good, I mean that in a bad way. In on e of way too m a n y h o b b i e s ,

I m ake furniture, in a style that passed on (officially) about a hundred years ago. O ne of their hallmarks was a finish that
u s e d a m m onia to color white oak a nice brown. I tried to obtain an am m o n i u m s o l u t i o n t h at was stronger than the cleaning
solution, and I thought the folks at the blueprint plant were going to call the Gestapo on me (they didn't, though, and I've
m ade that gallon make a lot of good wood better).
Pyro technics recipes that list a ny sort of phosphorus might as well require a pound of unobtainium (which can't be had, since
the m ines closed down). All because som e o n e e l s e m i g h t h a v e t o o g o o d a t i m e f r o m it.
I agree that hoarding m ay be the best strategy, if you have the opportunity, but it is still just clawing the door as they push
you out the hatch, in my opinion. Better than nothing, but there has to be something better than that.
BTW , I'm not hoardin g m u c h a l u m i n u m , s i n c e a s m a l l b a l l m ill will turn foil into good powder in a week or two, but I am
stocking up on oxidants, perchlorates in particular. I'm chem ically ignorant enoug h to need that, although, if I'm allowed to
lurk here long enough, I'll learn how to obtain them, too.
Lastly, this is m y first post here, am I banned yet?
Charles Owlen Picket May 2nd, 2008, 10:40 AM

Logic Probe:
Actually, If you had put money or a go od dinner on the fact that Skyligher had realgar: I would have hopped on tha t train!
There is a story that circulated awhile back about the pyro com panies that actually has m ore that a grain of truth to it....David
Koresh (or W a c o f a m e ) b o u g h t a H e l l o f a l o t o f Al powder from o n e o f t h e m ajor com p a n i e s ( t h e o n e t h a t g o t a s e r i o u s a s s -
kicking from the CPSC) & it was that in cident th at actually got most of the negative government attention p a i d t o t h o s e s m a l l
firms.
H o a r d i n g i s a g o o d t h i n g b u t m anufacturing m ay be even better. If you feel confident with the use of your ball mill then
expand your manufacturing resources! There is a large and long thread on chlorate/perchlorate production & the folks that
perfected very workable home m anufacturing techniques are not Graduate-level chem ists but practical thinkers & active
hobbyists! You may really want to read that thread with this whole concept as an overview. It's only an opinion, but right now we
are sitting at the crossroads of access to materials of th is nature.
And NO you're not going to get banned for m aking contributions, discussing issues in an intelligent polite m anner, or having
a n o p i n i o n . T h e F o r u m is rather strict compared to others that discuss similar m aterial: the Forum d e m ands that one follows
t h e R u l e s & d o e s o n e 's hom ework first.
It's the large st, oldest, & most widely read & that attracts a lot of people who either waste other's time or simply don't read the
rules and them act in a manner of childish churlishness.
Vitalis June 6th, 2008, 04:03 AM

I m ay be dig g i n g u p a s e m i - o ld topic here but I assum e since this is the water co oler the adm ins and mods will suffer my
necrom ancy.
I've found a few suppliers of the dreaded 99.9% Nitromethane, but who knows how long they will be around. Search and ye
shall find, for now.
Now is a good time to remind the serious m e m b e r s o f t h e f o r u m t o s t o c k p i l e . Y o u s h o u l d h a v e b e e n d o i n g i t a n d c o n t i n u e t o

do it until it is no longer possible.
Stockpile all these "horrible", "evil" chemicals a n d w e a p o n s , k e e p t h e m a w a y f r o m y o u r h o m e i f a t a l l p o s s i b l e i n a s a f e

location where you can access them quickly in an em ergency.
All signs point to an im minent and very harsh crackdown, and one m ust be prepared. Time is quickly running out.
Stay safe, yet prepared.
Cobalt.45 June 16th, 2008, 03:22 AM

I just receive d word from the guy I bought Nitro from that there are new restrictions on the 99.9% Nitro and he can't get it for
m e a n y m ore.
I h a v e n ' t b e e n a b l e t o f i n d a n y information on this anywhere else and was wondering if anyone else had heard of any new
restrictions?
I first heard about this when the National Hot R od Association (NHRA) recently im p o s e d a b a n o n b etween-race testing for two
of their professional drag racing classe s- Top Fuel Dragster and Funny Car. Both of these classes use nitro for fuel, m i x e d 9 0 /
10 with m eth a n o l .
This restriction was brought about not due to any federally m andated bans, but due to the world-wide dem a n d f o r
n i t r o m e t h a n e b e i n g o n t h e u p swing (ag and chem industries, m ainly in C h i n a , s e e m to be at the root of it).
Fuel for R/C cars/planes, etc. (also nitro-based) is in sh ort supply as well.
So, no bans or restrictions per se. Looks more like a case of supply short, dem and high.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > How to snare a thief
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View Full Version : How to snare a thief

I just noticed that about 40-50 of my DVDs are missing. I supect that my
hippie, bum, white-nigger, room mate has been pawning them for booze and
cigarettes. I suspect him because he's always trying to bum money for those
items. He can't buy using his independence(food stamps) card. The wigger
can't hold down a job because of his attitude. I pointed out the theft to him
and he's trying to blame one of my neighbors.
So, I decided to setup a webcam after work last night. Despite being a
little jittery it does reasonably good job recording motion. Now only if the
fucking cats wouldn't jump in front of it.
Whoever's stealing these the DVDs will be PROSECUTED. If it's the white
nigger, then I may take the step of beating the shit out of him before having
him locked up. I'm working 2 jobs, making good money, and can easily replace
the DVDs but it's just the idea of it ! :mad:

I am having the same problem with my but with my crackhead parents. YAY.
Anyway, to catch him try to set him up to fail, like leave some money out in front of the camera, or something less valuable, but the sparkle should catch his eye. You should
make it a tempting object but one that he would think you may not notice missing right away. And set the camera up there.
phrankinsteyn April 8th, 2008, 09:54 PM

Tmp,
Be careful with this guy. Is he aware of your interests (belonging to this forum and your ftp)? If he is, and you have him busted and he knows it's you, he may tell the law that
you are some kind of home grown terrorist. You and I both know the paranoia of our society these day's.
But that does not mean you don't do what you have to do.
My commanding officer once gave the definition of a thief: It is a man who would crawl over his dead mother to f**k his dying sister.
Can't get lower then that.
Just my two cents.
tmp April 9th, 2008, 02:20 AM

He is well aware of my activities, but I can clean up BEFORE I have him
busted. He's an obnoxious drunk as well. He likes to get in the faces of
people when he's drunk often shoving his fucking left-wing books in peoples'
faces insisting that they read them or declares them stupid if they don't. He
once got punched in the face(not by me), 8 fractures, for doing that to a
person. Personally, I think he's aware that I'm on high alert to the thefts.
Even if it costs me, I'm going to take other security measures as well.
As for him going to the cops about me, let's just say I have some relatives
and friends who are correctional officers. All they have to do is get the word
out that he's a fucking rat and the general population will take care of the
rest. That snitch will become a prison bitch for sure ! :D I wouldn't shed a
tear if this white-nigger was murdered in a prison.
P.S. One thing I've learned in life is that over 99% of the people in the world
are decent. Then there's the ones like wigger-boy. Less than 1/1000th of a
percent. They're like mules. The only way to get a mule to cooperate is to
beat it in the head every 5 minutes with a 2 X 4. I'll settle for a baseball bat
for this mule.
Code Red April 9th, 2008, 12:17 PM

Ummm, quick question... why do you even bother sharing the same room/home with this lowlife?
Surely there are better people/places around?
mil&co April 9th, 2008, 12:49 PM

How about impregnating some cash with silvernitrate? As to turn his hands the appropriate colour.
There would be no way for him to deny he stole it. A camera isn't 100% idiot-proof.
generallisimo April 9th, 2008, 05:19 PM

tmp...I hate to hear about you being stole from. It is a feeling that is not enjoyable. I once had a very valuable plant stolen from me by people who I trusted. It sucks even
more when they lie. I am sorry.
As far as snaring the idiot. I would say it is a better move to find a new roommate if at all possible.
Hope it pans out for you.

I just got home from my 2nd job after a 12-hour shift and the recordings so
far don't show him going near the DVDs. He didn't even go into my bedroom.
The camera would have showed that. He'd have to pass the camera to get
into the bedroom. I think he's aware of the camera although he's computer
illiterate compared to my 7 year old great-niece. He couldn't get by the
password protection on either computer anyway. The dumbfuck constantly
whines and wants to be spoonfed information on how to use his computer.
Sounds like a fucking KEWL doesn't it ? :D
Anyway, when I 1st took him in, despite his drunken obnoxiousness, he
proved to be, and still is when he works, a very hard worker - almost anal
retentive. Beyond the booze, his biggest problem is his attitude ! If he could
get over whatever chip he has on his shoulder I think things would work out
very well for him. There is one thing he learned on-the-job and he's very
good at it - locksmithing. He even taught me some of the basics and I can
still pick most locks(Medecos and Multi-Locks excepted).
The idea about silver nitrate on the money is interesting. Than an evil, but
funny, thought came over me - nitrogen triiodide. Catching that BANG on
video would make a great YouTube video, don't you think ? :D
The problem is one of my 2 cats would more than likely "touch off" the
currency and then I'd have to pry a screaming cat out of the ceiling with a
crowbar ! Must admit, that video would be even funnier ! :D
However, if he is unaware of the camera, I think he'll fuck up eventually.

Somebody stole those DVDs. They didn't leave on their own steam. I'll keep
you all posted.

Why don't you booby trap a DVD jewel case (buy a DVD you'ed never watch at goodwill for the trap), when the case is opened a charge goes off, not enough to kill but
enough to scare the shit out of someone, that will make him think, if he opens it, and if the guy at the pawn shop opens it first the next time your roomie brings him some
pilfered DVDs he'll get the ass kicking he richly deserves.
akinrog April 9th, 2008, 09:24 PM

It's really annoying to be cheated. However, I really recommend against using anything which may put you in the bad shade.
While having survaillence is good, having a good locker with a good lock (even a good high security padlock) is far more better. Good lo(u)ck.
iHME April 10th, 2008, 12:38 PM

A lockable cabinet would be good, but what if your "opposition" is armed with the knowledge of locksmithing and picking? A exploding or otherwise harming boobytrap could
bring some unwanted attention from the feds.
-=HeX=- April 10th, 2008, 08:39 PM

Guys, tmp already told up that this guy is a ok locksmith so a lock would be neglible in this situation. I advise downloading the ebook of '101 spy gadgets for the evil genius' (I
am going to post a link in links and literature tomorrow) and build a 'Nanny cam'.
This device is very versatile and I intend on making one. There is also a plan for a camera am I video case. This could be mixed in with the DVD's and would really catch him
out.
OT but is DynamiteMike a moderator? I notice he has edited some of the posts in the WC. I didnt notice that he was listed as a mod. Sorry mike if I stepped on your toes!
Lewis April 10th, 2008, 10:16 PM

How about impregnating some cash with silvernitrate?
This is a really innovative idea. Catch him black-handed! :p

I know I'm acting paranoid. However consider this:
Since tmp is not behaving as powers-that-be intended, they want to trap him. So pigs tell his drunkard friend (roommate) to annoy tmp to lure him into making something
illegal. :eek:
I always say better be safe than sorry. Regards.
BlackFalcoN April 12th, 2008, 05:49 PM

I know I'm acting paranoid. However consider this:
That's really a couple of shades too paranoid for me. :p
I would consider moving or finding another room mate.
He can be the nicest, most friendly kind of person in your face, but if he steals from you behind your back, he's already proven he can't be trusted and is not loyal to you.
Instead of inflicting him bodily harm or doing anything illegal, be as kind as you can be to him in his face,
then use him yourself for any gain you can get from him; be it financial, material, favours, etc.
Exploit the sucker in any possible way and squeeze him dry for what he's worth, then dump his sorry ass and move on. :cool:

I agree with BlackFalcoN. Exploit him, but don't move on. Make things crappy for him so that he moves on. Screw moving out because some idiot steals from you. Kick his ass
out. Why should you have to move because he is the prick? I wouldn't blow his fingers off, but hell, use him as much as you can, the fuck him off.
HeX - Kind of worrying isn't it? You don't know who is a moderator these days and who isn't... Best be nice to everyone :p.
Seriously though, if you (legitimately) disagree with something a moderator has said, say so. Moderators aren't here to stifle your free speech, they are here to keep the trash
out and make things easier for everyone. They aren't going to ban you for disagreeing (politely) with them.
Hinckleyforpresident April 14th, 2008, 09:19 PM

Perhaps tainting the booze with MeOH is in order? Not enough to do permanent damage, just enough to put his thieving ass in the hospital.

It's taken some time to assemble the list of movies and import them into a
searchable database. I still have to weed out anything that I have on
laserdisc. Even with that, I severely underestimated the number of stolen
DVDs. I had forgotten that I was jamming them in the closet anywhere I
could. It appears from a count on the database that over 500 discs were
stolen.
Wiggerboy got pissed at me the other night because I was assembling the
list. He's trying to tell me to accept my losses and forget about it. He even
dropped a hint about potential police investigation of my hobbies. In other
words the guilty party here is trying to back me off ! WELL FUCK HIM !
He thinks he has a trump card. He's going to find out that card is the joker !
I'll make all necessary preparations before presenting my list and report to
the police. I've already taken some steps. There are only a few left.
I'm not even concerned about the money at this point. It's just that people
have stolen from me even on the job. Last week I found out that some
lowlife stole my automotive universal A/C charging kit. It had all the fittings
for every type of refrigerant. I want to help Wiggerboy relocate to the
Maryland House Of Corrections where he can take his wedding vows(as wife)
with biggest, meanest inmate available. His honeymoon should be a real
scream, don't you think ? :D Accept my losses ? Not this time ! I want
payment rendered in the form of pain to this thief ! He's a fucking liberal so
he should right at home in prison ! He'll get to live with people he says are in
there because of mean conservatives like me.
phrankinsteyn April 18th, 2008, 02:27 AM

Tmp,
That was my concern when I first posted about this person. People will do may things out of revenge or to save their self.
I would suggest, if you are going to provide a list of stolen items to the police, make sure there are not any dvd's (or anything else) that could verify/collaborate his story.
Double check everything again that you plan on cleaning up before making your move. Then do what you feel is right and remember what my commanding officer once
said........ :)

That particular concern has always been on my mind. My cleaning list has
been made and is already set into motion. That idiot must like being in jail.
He was released right before Christmas because he violated his probation.
Your C/O's definition of a thief is accurate and that fits the asshole because
he hates his family, especially his mother. I'll keep you posted on my
progress.

The reason why the expression "Revenge is a dish best served cold" has lasted so long is that it bears a great truth.
By being relaxed and not looking for immediate gratification, the time & effort utilized is gradual and the person invested in seeing revenge is tempered with restraint. The
results of any endeavor are never promised but by gradual effort toward an end, the revenge seeker has the greatest chance of success. By having less emotionalism attached
to his efforts he is able to dispassionately design what will work, not what he will want to work.
In ancient Rome, the poisoner was considered to be an artist of sorts. The hideous work was designed to do the damage with a great chance of success but never with overt
direction back to the perpetrator. He was a great example of dispassionate effort. On the battle field the laying of mines had the same odious results...no guarantee, but every
chance of success IF the ground work was subtle!
This is accomplished differently with most every circumstance. But one of the highlights of emotionless action is the knowledge that any result of any action can at once be a
gamble due to nothing in this world being certain.
So how DO you fuck some clown over? Always direct energy toward what he DOES, not toward what he does NOT do. A man who can't swim rarely goes swimming; a man
who loves leisure rarely digs ditches. In both Vietnam & Rhodesia soldiers stayed away from paths as they thought they were mined. So the enemy put his mines where the
soldier would go to stay away from the supposed mines! The last place a soldier would sweep was right in the midst of a bush but that's where the mine was hidden & right
where he walked.
MAGNUM9987 April 27th, 2008, 03:15 PM

Why not buy a lockable case, put your D.V.D.'s and a camera in it, if anyone goes in or picks the lock you will definitely know about it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Gun Protests Nationwide April
16th....Anyone have plans?
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View Full Version : Gun Protests Nationwide April 16th....Anyone have plans?
Mr Science April 10th, 2008, 01:51 AM

I am sure some of you have seen lie ins on youtube, where 32 people lie down for a few minutes (apparently how long it took
for the shooter to obtain his firearms), and while they claim they are doing this to respect the 32 killed at Virginia Tech, in
reality this is just a chance for them to further their agenda, and take advantage of people's emotions. And these people will
eventually succeed....
.......That is, if we don't do anything to stop them. :D I plan to counter-protest the one in Chicago, which basically means I will
need a sign with some very witty or clever remark to anger the Million Morons and prove a point at the same time.
http://www.protesteasyguns.com/about.html
Their website
ARIZONA
Chandler-32
Phoenix-32 (6:30 pm, Arizona State Capitol, 1700 W. Washington, Phoenix, AZ 85007 - Free
Parking at Wesley Bolin Plaza east of 17th Avenue)
CALIFORNIA
Bakersfield-32
California State University, Chico-32 (400 West First St., Chico, CA)
Diablo Valley College-32 (321 Golf Club Rd., Pleasant Hill, CA)
Laney College-32 (900 Fallon Street, Oakland, CA)
Pine Mountain Club-32
College of San Mateo-32 (noon, 1700 W. Hillsdale Blvd., main fountain, in front of the library.)
Sierra College-32 ( noon - 1 pm at the "Lawn Mound" in front of L Building, Nevada County Campus, 250 Sierra College Dr.,
Grass Valley, CA)
Solano Community College-32 ( 4000 Suisun Valley Rd., Fairfield, CA)
UCLA-32 ( 405 Hilgard Ave., Los Angeles, CA)
COLORADO
Boulder-32 (12:30 pm, Pearl Street Mall at the Boulder County Courthouse)
Colorado College-32 (April 14, 12 noon, Worner Center on the steps inside
Colorado College)
Denver-32 (12 noon, Colorado State Capital, East stairs grassy area)
Fort Collins-32 (12 noon, Colorado State University, Library Plaza, just
south of the Lory Student Center)
CONNECTICUT
Darien/Greenwich-32 (11 am, at the Stamford Superior Court plaza, 123 Hoyt Street, Stamford, CT)
University of New Haven-32 (1:30 pm)
Washington, DC
D.C.#2-32 (noon, U.S. Supreme Court, 1 First Street, NE)
FLORIDA
Miami-32 (12:30 pm, lake behind Nova Southeastern University's Law School. )
GEORGIA
Georgia-32 (12 noon, )
HAWAII
Honolulu-32 (6:30 pm, Kapiolani Park at the Ghandi Statue (across from the Honolulu Zoo
entrance)
ILLINOIS
Chicago#3-32 (10 am, James R. Thompson Center, State of Illinois Building,
front of building at Randolph St.)
INDIANA
University of Indiana-32 (12 noon, The Musical Arts Center, 101 N. Jordan Ave, Indiana University)
KANSAS
Kansas City-32 (see Missouri) (12 noon, Southwest Corner of College and Metcalf
Overland Park, KS)
KENTUCKY
Northern Kentucky/Cincinnati-32 (6pm, Seasongood Pavillion, Mt. Adams 1600 Art Museum Dr. , Cincinnati, OH)
MAINE
Portland #2-32 (12 noon, Luther Bonney Quad/Lobby, USM Portland Campus)
MARYLAND
Baltimore-32 ( 6 pm, Second Presbyterian Church, 4200 St. Paul Street, Baltimore, MD, 21218)
Bethesda#2-32 (12 noon, U.S. Supreme Court, 1 First Street, NE)
Goucher College-32
Silver Spring#2-32 (12 noon, U.S. Supreme Court, 1 First Street, NE)
MASSACHUSETTS
Clark University-32 (6:00 pm, Red Square,Clark University,950 Main Street, Worcester, MA 01610. Click here for more
information on Facebook. Click here to download a flyer. )
Harvard-32
red dot UMass-Amherst-32 (1:10 pm, Student Union Steps)
Simmons-32
Wellesley-32
MICHIGAN
Detroit#3-32 (12 noon, In front of the Spirit of Detroit statue, 2 Woodward Avenue, (corner of Woodward & Jefferson Ave./
Coleman A. Young Municipal Center.)
Western Michigan University-32 (12 noon, Kalamazoo, MI, Flagpoles, drive on W. Michigan Ave. through the campus until the
road ends. In the event of rain, the events will move into Kanley Chapel or the Peace Center)
MINNESOTA
Minneapolis/St. Paul-32
Univ. of Minnesota-Duluth-32 (12 noon, UMD Kirby Student Center Lounge- 1st Floor
1120 Kirby Drive)
MISSOURI
Kansas City-32 ( (12 noon, Southwest Corner of College and Metcalf, Overland Park, KS)
NEBRASKA
Omaha-32
NEW HAMPSHIRE
Salem-32
NEW JERSEY
Montclair-32
The College of New Jersey/Mercer-32 (11;15 am, Lobby, Brower Student Center, he College of New Jersey
2000 Pennington Road, Ewing, NJ)
NEW MEXICO
Albuquerque-32 (11:30 am- 1:30 pm, UNM campus in Smith Plaza SW Corner in front of Zimmerman Library)
NEW YORK
Times Square#2-32 (12 noon, Westside of Broadway between 45-46th in front of the Marriott Marquis Hotel)
Bronx-32 (12 noon, Bronx County Courthouse , 161 st and Grand Concourse)
Morris High School-32 (12 noon, The Senior Class of 2008, Bronx, 1100 Bostorn Road & 166th St.)
Crown Heights-32 (High School for Public Service , 600 Kingston Avenue Brooklyn -- with NYAGV's ReAction youth group)
Albany-32
Cornell-32 (12 noon, Ho Plaza, Ithaca, NY, )
NORTH CAROLINA
Charlotte#2-32 (12 noon, Tryon Street & East 6th Street (southeast corner), Uptown Charlotte near the Main Library)
Duke-32
UNC-Chapel Hill#3-32 (noon, Polk Place near Gardner Hall, UNC Campus. UNC-32 lie-in FLYER)
Winston Salem-32 (10:30 am, Clock Tower, Winston Salem State University)
UNC-Greensboro
UNC-Wilmington-32 (noon, Clock Tower at the Center of UNCW Campus, 601 S. College Rd.)
OHIO
Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky-32 (6pm, Seasongood Pavillion, Mt. Adams 1600 Art Museum Dr. , Cincinnati, OH)
University of Toledo-32 (12 noon, University of Toledo Student Union Steps)
Columbus-32
Kent State-32 (12 noon, 1st floor lobby of the Kent State University Student Center)
Oberlin-32 (12 noon,First Church in Oberlin (UCC), Main and Lorain, Oberlin, OH)
PENNSYLVANIA
Philadelphia#3-32 (7pm, 1 hour before the Democratic Debate, National Constitution Center,
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania)
SOUTH CAROLINA
Charleston#2-32 (11:00 am, Marion Square, at the King and Calhoun corner end)
Columbia#3-32 (12 noon, North Side of the State House, Corner of Gervais and Main Streets)
TENNESSEE
University of Tennessee-32 (12 noon, Pedestrian Walkway)
TEXAS
University of Texas-Austin-32
Dallas#2-32 (12 noon, Dallas City Hall)
University of Texas-San Antonio-32 (12 noon in front of the library)
VERMONT
Pawlet-32
VIRGINIA
Virginia Tech-32 (12 noon, Drillfield- following the Opening Ceremonies , Blacksburg, VA)
Alexandria#2-32 (12 noon, U.S. Supreme Court, 1 First Street, NE)
Falls Church#2-32 (12 noon, U.S. Supreme Court, 1 First Street, NE)
Grove Avenue Christian School-32
McLean#2-32 (12 noon, U.S. Supreme Court, 1 First Street, NE)
Norfolk-32 (12 noon, YWCA, 5215 Colley Avenue, Norfolk, VA)
Portsmouth-32 (5:30 pm, Downtown Portsmouth in front of the Juvenile & Domestic Court
605 Crawford Street)
Richmond#3-32 (11:00 AM at the bell tower on the State Capital Grounds)
WASHINGTON
Seattle-32 (12 noon, Downtown Seattle -- Westlake Park)
WEST VIRGINIA
Marshall University-32
WISCONSIN
Madison-32
Milwaukee-32
INTERNATIONAL
Toronto, Ontario/Canada - 32
And of course a website against PEG:

http://www.protesteasygunslies.com/
And just search for this on youtube, to come across at least several of these.
I'm curious if anyone else in the US was doing anything like this as well, and perhaps on this thread we can discuss ideas on
how to do a more effective job at ruining their pathetic performance. :)
So far, the best sign I've seen is "Here lies disarmed victims." Anyone have other suggestions?

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/search.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-04-08-0119.html I can't say I expected this haha. Its nice
to see people stand up to these morons, nothing but fear mongering sheeple. These people need to see the enemies they
have created, and that their actions and beliefs have consequences. If more people stand up to the MMM and Brady Bunch,
these groups will someday disappear without a whimper.

Thank you for bring this up. We know that it's going to be a Democrat election so the whiners are coming out of the woodwork
to get a share....The gun grabbing groups are always there to scream & pule about whatever: but now they can get some
action. They got Brady (I & II) under Clinton so they think they will get a REAL set of restrictions under Hillery.
The thing is that the actual statistic show that laws aimed at "assault weapons" are a joke. So what you may see is a set of
laws aimed at simple pistols: these being termed "aggressive handguns". We know that the pistol is a weapon of defense:
that the rifle is the weapon of offense, but they will twist shit around and get some firm restrictions going.
If you plan on buying something, you better buy it NOW! Need high caps? Buy them NOW. Need to buy a cute set of AK's
(folding & fixed stock)? Buy them NOW!
I can't wait for the NEW hysteria. It's like a new marketing plan from a major manufacturer. Like fucking MAC has ads where
the MAC is a cool together guy and the PC is a fat nerd fuck. We will see some talent float to the top like a shit in a toilet
bowl.
Rbick April 10th, 2008, 11:17 AM

I think what we need to be concentrating on is strategies for the future if and when these restrictions come about. I will not
have my God given rights that are guaranteed by our constitution stripped away by some liberal bastards who don't listen to
statistics or common sense.
I recieved this video and message from my father, I think you guys might like it. Here is the video (http://
s164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/?action=view&current=TED_NUGENT.flv). Ted hits it right on the head.
A Little Gun History Lesson
In 1929, the Soviet Union

Established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents,
Unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
In 1911, Turkey established gun

Control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend
Themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
---------------------------
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13
million Jews and others who were
Unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated
------------------------------
China established gun control in

1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend
----------------------------
Guatemala established gun control in
1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend
themselves,
Were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Uganda established gun control in

1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves,
Were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Cambodia established gun control in

1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educa ted' people, unable to defend
-----------------------------
Defenseless people rounded up and

Exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
------------------------------
It has now been 12 months since gun

Owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal
Firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing
Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results
Are now in:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 Percent
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 Percent
Australia-wide, armed robberies are Up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!
In the state of Victoria alone, Homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the
Law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals
Still possess their guns!
It will never happen here? I bet the

Aussies said that too !
While figures over the previous 25

Years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has
Changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are
Guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.
There has also been a dramatic

Increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians
Are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such
Monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding
Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other
Historical facts above prove it.
You won't see this data on the US

Evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this Information.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens

Save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the
Law-abiding citizens.
Take note my fellow Americans,

Before it's too late!
The next time someone talks in favor

Of gun control, please remind him of this history lesson.
With Guns...........We Are "Citizens".

Without Them........We Are "Subjects".
During W.W.II the Japanese decided

Not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!
Note: Admiral Yamamoto who crafted

The attack on Pearl Harbor had attended Harvard U 1919-1921 & was Naval
Attach to the U. S. 1925-28. Most of our Navy was destroyed at Pearl Harbor
& our Army had been deprived of funding & was ill prepared to defend the
Country.
It was reported that when asked why

Japan did not follow up the Pearl Harbor attack with an invasion of the U.
S. Mainland, his reply was that he had lived in the U. S. & knew that almost
All households had guns.
For those who say that the 2nd Amendment is outdated; Is the right to free speech outdated too?
EDIT: Mr. Science, let me know when you'll be in Chicago. I left you a PM :)
GMike63 April 10th, 2008, 08:47 PM

If they want to lie down- why don't they lie down in front of some tanks like in Tiananmen Square? Oh, thats right China has
total gun control already. These protestors would probably be the ones driving the tanks over the freedom fighters given the
chance.

Yea, its pathetic, the mayor (theres one mayor that needs gelding!) of my formally great city has put a video on YouTube
asking the feds to ban all handguns, look up "Mayor of Toronto", "David Miller" or "Dillluded Socialist Asshole" on YouTube to
see the video. Oh as for protest sign how about...
1 armed madman + 32 unarmed people = 32 dead people
1 armed madman + 32 armed people = 1 dead madman
LuzRD April 11th, 2008, 12:58 AM

How about these for protest signs?
"32 more dead as a result of gun control"

"would you feel better if they were pushed out of windows?"
"here lie 32 people that need to get jobs"
"ill bet $1 all 32 are unarmed"
*paint tire tracks on your clothing* "visit www.ProtestRegistryofMotorvehicles.stfu"
"armed citizens could have prevented this"
"...proof that the only chance to survive is secured in your holster!!"
"this is the result of "controlling" firearms"
::edit:: Thank you Alexires, I'm sorry for the confusion.

All good ideas. I plan on hopefully making it down to Chicago to join Mr Science in the anti-protest. If anyone else here can
make it to Chicago, you're more than welcome. I'm still waiting to find out the exact date, but I would assume that it is soon.

Here we can expect Governor ShitHead to join the Million Mental Midgets in
their treasonous screams for gun bans. FTP members, download "Innocents
Betrayed" from the VIDEO subdirectory. They discuss the REAL reason for
gun control - government ordered genocide of populations who won't kiss the
politicians' asses.
There is a workable solution to most of this state's gun crime. The city of
Baltimore, hereafter referred to as ShitHole, needs a population reduction.
From the center of ShitHole plot 2 positions. 2 miles due east and 2 miles due
west. Use them as ground zeroes. One neutron bomb detonated over each
position. These areas have the highest concentration of Democratic-voting,
liberal-supporting, welfare-ridden, felonious, treasonous, bottomfeeding trash
that have no right to breath the same air as us ! Every time one of those
motherfuckers uses a gun in their gang/drug related crimes, the political
leadership of ShitHole yells for gun bans. And they have their cronies in the
state capitol cheering for them. This is one case where some genocide might
have a positive effect !

It seems more and more each and every day that the government and ruling bodies become more encompassing and move
closer towards absolute power. Its as if they are almost done pretending to care what we want and are about to take the step
out of the closet per se and basically admit they don't care and their sole goal is to retain absolute power for them and the
rest of the rich elite. Some of these people probably think we don't deserve to live because of our rampant consumerism will
basically mean they may not have as many goods in the future, so maybe they should start a global war to squash the human
population to slow down consumerism to retain there power and need of goods and good times. I hope this is clear to you
guys. Basically I am trying to say are there is a given amount of oil on earth for instance, and they(rich and powerful)
obviously feel like its there, now as our population grows the rate at which the poor consume goods is increasing, this makes
goods more rare and expensive. And obviously we are not worthy.
Sorry for the rant.
Obviously that is not their sole goal to quell our consumerism, but this is sort of a long term protective/preventative measure
to ensure they get goods in the far future. and the seizure of power isn't solely for that its probably a very minor constituent of
the facts in reality. I sort of just went off on a tangent there on the consumer goods ideas. But the fact that they are seizing
powers at alarming rates and are beginning to not even care about hiding it is frankly quite frightening to me, and masks
some further more scary future that I cannot even begin to imagine.
Vitalis April 12th, 2008, 03:43 AM

Exactly. The protest against non-easy gun ownership would follow in a sane world, but we don't live in a sane world, so get as
many guns as you can NOW and don't say a word to the liberal anti-gun screwballs.
That, in my opinion will be the best way to counter them. As they spread tolerance and diversity and actively degenerate
society to the breaking point, we will be ready for the lawlessness to follow...
Yea, its pathetic, the mayor (theres one mayor that needs gelding!) of my formally great city has put a video on YouTube
asking the feds to ban all handguns, look up "Mayor of Toronto", "David Miller" or "Dillluded Socialist Asshole" on YouTube to
see the video. Oh as for protest sign how about...
1 armed madman + 32 unarmed people = 32 dead people
1 armed madman + 32 armed people = 1 dead madman

In 1911, Turkey established gun
Control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend
My discourse will be off topic but above statement is simply not true
Between 1911 and 1923 is Ottoman Era and there was no gun control since the Ottomans fought for almost 50 years from
1870s (Balkan wars) to 1923 (beginning of new Republic). During war time, what kind of idiot can enforce gun control?
And men of all Moslem families were off to war zones leaving only women and children behind. Non-moslems (including but
not limited to Armenians) were exempt from serving in military.
So you should check your references.
In addition Armenian guerillas were organized under the standard of Dashnak Sutyun nationalist party.
When Dashnak Sutyun joined the Tzarist Russian Army to fight against Ottomans, they not only fought side by side with the
Russian Army but also resorted to the guerilla warfare (behind Ottoman front lines) to cut logistic support of Ottoman Army,
while looting the fatherless moslem families killing and raping at large since no armed men were fighting back.
They even invaded Van Province and killed almost half of the non-Armenians over there, which was an easy task since all men
of the families were off to the frontiers, they were enjoying women and children and then killing them.
However their lot changed when Russians were defeated; angry non-Armenians (i.e. mostly Kurds in the region) started
revenging on Armenians.
There is an American ex-judge called Samuel Wheems. This judge who is also a Baptist pastor wrote a book called "Armenia :
Secrets of a Christian Terrorist State". The author gives several evidence contrary to genocide claims of Armenians in that
book.
A simple fact, there is no non-Armenians in Armenia, but there is almost 100,000 local Armenians in Turkey. Given the illegal
immigrants to Turkey from Armenia, the number even exceeds 200.000.
What is the number of Turks in Armenia: Zero, nil.
Moreover, the first prime minister of Armenia who is a Dashnak (i.e. nationalist), after being invaded by Soviets delivered a
speech against a group of top level Dashnak party members, confessing that what they did during Ottoman era was wrong.
A few links :
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/02/1449-first-time-release-armenian.html
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/03/2390-free-e-book-history-of-armenian.html
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/12/2224-armenian-author-on-patriotism.html
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/03/1540-russian-commander-lieutenant.html
And finally above mentioned speech of first prime minister of Armenian Republic, confessing what they did during WW I.
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2006/05/679-dashnagtzoutiun-has-nothing-to-do.html
All links (ebooks) are available at http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2005/08/about-contact-us-links.html#ebook
Now they are falsely whining that Turkey staged genocide against these unarmed innocent folks, a situation which is not true.
Even the word "Turkey" is a part of their deception: The alleged events took place during Ottoman Era, not during Republic of
Turkey's era. By using that word, they are trying to give the impression that they were killed by the Republic of Turkey, yet
again misleading victims (i.e. you) of their scam .
They are doing this, so, just like Iraqi kurds who were by no means victims of a genocide lured America to intervene, they are
also trying to lure Western folks to intervene so they may establish their Greater Armenia. Regards.
Rbick April 12th, 2008, 08:44 PM

Ok... fair enough. I won't argue with you on that. But it still doesn't change my point, aside form that part about Armenians I
guess :rolleyes:

They are doing this, so, just like Iraqi kurds who were by no means victims of a genocide lured America to intervene,
Are you implying that the use of chemical weapons against Kurdish civilians was either a staged event or non-existent?
The videos of Kurdish civilians, [dead from air attack] was obtained after the invasion, from the Saddam-era ministry. Was
that falsified (& if so to what end)? [Leaving Kurdish populations aside]The abuses by Saddam against his indigenous Arab
population base was well documented via public channels on the ground ("rape rooms", etc). To what end further the abuses
when such a well established pattern already exists?
Barnacles April 15th, 2008, 12:48 AM

Akinrog - I really have nothing to based this off of but your entire argument seems to be based on one sides interpretation of
a situation and not really historical fact globally accepted. I am not calling you a liar but can you show more reliable quotes?
These seem like conspiracy theorist pages. It seems like you are trying to say people who claimed a genocide happened are
liars? Maybe I misread you.
Also are you trying to say because turkey changed its name from something else it is not responsible?
Also I must agree with Charles' sentiment. Those claims are rather absurd.
Kaydon April 15th, 2008, 02:31 AM

Hmm... The one in South Carolina is a town over, as I'm only 45 minutes from Columbia. I don't think I can make it though,
dammit!!

Are you implying that the use of chemical weapons against Kurdish civilians was either a staged event or non-existent?
No not really. It's a known fact that Saddam was a dictator. However his being a dictator was not problem until he started being
a "misbehaving dictator".
Hint: other good behaving dictators in the region was never dethroned. For example, as I repeatedly say western media filters
human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia and westerners never see them, because Saudi family is a good behaving dictator.
There are various theories about gassing of Iraqi Kurds, which I shall not discuss.
Only important part is, IMHO, it happened during Iran - Iraq war and since Saddam was THEN a well behaving dictator (i.e.
doing every bidding of our big brother), he was an ally of our big brother. There are even some ex CIA officials who claim that
it was actually USA which supplied CW material and technology to Saddam.
And apart from many claims justifying invasion of Iraq the last one, i.e. "Saddam was killing hundreds thousands of people
per annum" was also not substantiated.
Did you know despite many claims, only six mass graves could be located in Iraq? And only one of them opened and about
three hundred bodies were exhumed from that grave. So where are hundreds thousands of Kurdish civilian bodies?
My point is these claims are used as tools to attain something different which is not even remotely related to human right
issues!... If it was a human rights issue, then one must liberate every country in the region.
one sides interpretation of a situation

...
can you show more reliable quotes?
Can you tell me which SINGLE side does first Prime Minister of Armenia represent? or whose quotes can be more reliable than
against first Prime Minister of Armenia?
I believe you did not read the above post. One of the link (which also contains a PDF file containing entire speech) is that
gentleman's public address confessing their guerilla warfare triggered those events. If quotes of first prime minister of
Armenia is not reliable enough for you then, nothing shall be.
Regards
Chris Werb May 15th, 2008, 04:18 PM

As a gun owner I don't want to take issue with the sentiment of the posting on here but the Yamamoto quote, even if correct
isn't really representative of the situation in 1941.
1) I find it very dubious that 'most' US households had a gun in 1941, particularly in populous areas of the West Coast where
a Japanese invasion would presumably have taken place.
2) The US had very considerable land and air forces with which to resist an invasion in December 1941 and they were building
up fast. As well as the two carriers that survived Pear Harbour, they could (and for the most part did) switch their Atlantic fleet
to the Pacific too.
3) An invasion of the mainland USA from Japan would require an immense military force with a huge logistic back up, including
a chain of island bases, that the US, with an economy about 20X the size of Japan's would have taken almost four years to
build up had Operation Olympic and Coronet taken place from November 1945.
4) Remember that the US invasion would have taken place after a sustained maritime blockade and strategic bombing and
interdiction campaign that it is simply inconceivable that Japan could have undertaken against the US (think about the
practicality of bombing the Republic factory at Farmingdale NY from a base on Guam!)
London_Dungeon May 21st, 2008, 12:53 PM

So they say they want to make it harder for people to get guns. What could make it harder for people to get guns than a total
ban, which Virginia Tech already had? Wait, that only makes it hard for the sane and law-abiding.
When this happened CNN had some Brady dipshit come on and go toe-to-toe with Ted Nugent. Ted Nugent won hands down.
The Brady guy even had to admit that their policies failed in this instance! Maybe YouTube has the video; it's worth looking
up.
It would probably be best to say you were a friend of one of the victims and ask if you could give a brief speech concerning
guns. It could start out something like, "On the day of the Virginia Tech massacre, the Brady Campaign and all other gun
control advocates had what they desired. The college had a complete ban on firearms, thus leaving everyone but the shooter
and an underpaid, undermanned security team to unsuccessfully defend the slain..."
It's important to remind everyone that these passive murderers already got what they want and it lead to 32 deaths at VTech.
Who knows how many otheres elsewhere? Giving them even more of what they want is not only insane, it's suicidal. "Hair of
the dog..."

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Mentioning E&W in an Interview
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The short story is this: I'm applying for a job as a lab assistant, which really requires no lab experience, bu t I want to improve
m y chances by mentioning m y pursuits in the field of chemistry. The problem is, the only reactions I'm eve r interested in are
the very fast, exothermic type . :p
S o m ething tells m e a potential employer would b e t u r n e d o f f b y m y m e n tioning HE's and pyrotechnics as m y hobby.
I guess my question for the forum is, how can I convey my knowledge of lab practice, with out givin g too m uch away, and if I'm
asked for specifics, how far sh o u l d I g o ?

I h a v e a s u g g e s t i o n : y o u w o u l d n e e d t o a d a p t i t t o Y O U R style of presen tation....
C h e m istry has always fascinated you. In fact you are so mewhat of a hobbyist chem ist; in that you read a great deal of
m aterial (list non-energetic oriented m aterial like Organic Synthesis archives) & have even taken the time to pursue som e
reactions at hom e (growing crystals, m a k i n g d y e s ) . Y o u h a v e t a k e n t h e t i m e to do it as profession ally as possible in that you
look toward safety first.
H e r e w e h a v e a n e x a m ple of all the safe points of the hobby without the baggage of the energetic issue. You m ention things
l i k e d y e s y n t h e s i s a n d y o u c o m e d a m n c l o s e t o e n e r g e t i c s y n t h e s i s d u e t o t h e m a t e r i a l s n e e d e d f o r s a m e (do your homewo rk
on this of course)..... Mention "safe" politically correct reading, specifics are very im portant. Organic Synthesis is something
m ost folks are fam iliar with.
Obviously you have to work th is into your style of presentation. But a word of advise: most folks TALK too much in interviews.
Let the other guy TELL YOU what he wants to hear & tak e it from there. P repare well in advance to have smooth answers to
questions like: "what do you consider m ost primary in lab safety?", "W hat's the first thing you do when a synthesis has been
completed?", etc, etc. Don't over sell yourself O R your interest. Find out what type of person the guy wants first before m a k i n g
ANY statement of "ap propriate-person for the position". - Good Luck!
Personally speaking: I don't mention E&W to ANYO NE, EVER .... b ut that's just m e .

I don't m ention E&W to ANYONE, EVER.... but that's just me.
Ooo wise one, you are really right about this. :)
O n c e u p o n a t i m e in m y dream I forgot to put away some chemistry notes, a colleague of m i n e ( w h o h a p p e n s t o s p e a k

English) see "explosives" word on it.
Despite I did m y best to create plausible deniability, the guy did not forg et what he see. He bugs m e in m y d r e a m s . F * c k i n g
retard. :mad:

No joke, and once the word gets out, suddenly you have a bunch of people trying to impress their "1337 haX0r freinds" by the
fact that they have a "friend" that knows about "kewl bombz".
I had a friend that learnt that lesson long ago. Don't tell anyone about what you do, what you think.
Bahhh like all the oth er sheeple, but conceal the m ind of a wolf.
Charles' advice is certainly sound. If it goes into depth, you can even talk about chrom o p h o r e s ( a s o p p o s e d t o e x p l o s o p h o r e s )
and be fairly correct. O f course, follow the R T P B a n d u s e t h e 7 P ' s ( P r o p e r Prior Planning P revents Piss Poor Perform ance).
P e r h a p s e v e n b r i n g s o m e of your lab write ups of your "experiments" (into dyes and other harmless things) and have them
there in case they really start asking you questions about your synthesis. You don't want to seem to eager, but it is better to
h a v e s o m e supporting evidence there in case you need it. You don't have to show them if they don't seem to interested (in
fact, perhaps better not to show them in that case).
20 questions later...
"Sir, perhaps it would just be easier if you had a look at m y lab reports from my experim entation. I draw your attention in
particular to the safety evaluation that I carry o ut for every expe riment as well as the MSDS's stapled to the back of every
report."
On the other hand, we had a lab assistant at school who was incredibly awesom e and was into "energetics" as well, often
blowing up various things to impress visiting students to the school.

T h i s i s o n e o f t h o s e 6 o f o n e , h a l f a d o z e n o f t h e o t h e r s i t u a t i o n s . M e a n i n g , m e n tioning your proclivity for energetics could be
very im pressive and clinch the job, or it could be discouraging and lose you the jo b.
Technically speaking explosives are not politically correct, you are not supposed to know such things, so you should never
m ention you have such forbidden knowledge. However, just about any man in the chem istry field probably started o ut with a
keen interest in energetics, which is lik ely what gave him his start in chemistry, so he would be very im p r e s s e d .
I t a l l d e p e n d s on what kind of person your interviewer is. If he is a scientist himself he likely understands the allure of
explosives, but if he is just a hum an resources clod, watch out!
Y o u s h o u l d n o t t i p y o u r h a n d t o o f a r b y m a k i n g y o u r s e l f o u t t o b e t h e u n i b o m ber. There is a healthy intere s t , a n d a d a n g e r o u s

obsession.
I find in interviews you always tell them what th ey want to hear. Don't volunteer informatio n about yourself. If you will m a k e
explosives as part of your job, well tha t's all you do... If it is a particular synthesis they are after, well you are experienced in
nitrations... They don 't need to know of what specific com p o u n d s .
T h e i g n o r a n t a t t i t u d e t h a t e x p l o s i v e s a r e b a d a n d n o o n e s h o u l d k n o w a b o u t t h e m is very pervasive in society. For this reason

even people who are closet explosophiles may display explosist (like racist) traits to fit in...
Barnacles April 16th, 2008, 07:44 AM

For this reason even people who are closet exp losophiles m ay display explosist (like racist) traits to fit in...
I m ay or may not be guilty of this offense...
W h e r e I a m the knowledge of chemistry = drugs,terrorism, bad intentions. questions arise "what do you ne ed to know that for"
" d o y o u m a k e d r u g s , o r a r e y o u m a k i n g b o m bs..." In this day and age you should basically tell no one about this. If som e o n e
tells anyone in any agency, not only will you be put on a watch list, m ayb e m onitored to som e degree and you will most likely
end up being visited by some local law enforcem ent to have a chat.
A b o u t 2 w e e k s a g o s o m e guy was in the hospital and le ft a note for his wife on how to handle a jar of picric acid I think, she
freaked out and called the cops. They cleared a few blocks of house away. O ver a jar of explosives. And on e tim e if I
r e m e m ber correctly I rem ember reading about a police chiefs rem a r k s u p o n h e a r i n g t h a t s o m e o n e h a d a f e w g a l l o n s o f s o m e
chemicals at his house. Declaring there is no reason he should have that and he was putting his entire neighbour in jeopardy.
Not really related just some remarks I have seen that d emonstrate the typical negative view portrayed by the public.
I have actually been called stupid for displaying an interest to le arn chem istry or other sciences. I am not a big chem ist have
hardly any real knowledge to be honest, but still like to learn reactions of all sorts from mundane to energetic. And just read
about it when I can.
I find it quite interesting. and through time we have been able to tell one mundane white powder from the other 10,000
m undane white powders. While manag ing to even isolate and purify and label and characterize all of these things.
On subject, this is not som eth ing I would even consider bringing up with anyone unless the job involved nitrating said things,
or you were blowing shit up as part of your job such as m ining or EOD, or anything involving explosives.
-=HeX=- April 16th, 2008, 12:32 PM

I recall when I came out of m y explosiphile closet... I have never regretted it, even in my country where just a few years bin
terrorists ran riot in the north. In ireland energetics still have a lot of stigm a thanks to the IRA. I e n d e d u p b e i n g q u e s t i o n e d a
while later in relation to am incident with thermite by the pork. That was in m y kewl days.
These days I try to pretend to have pyro and energetics but still say that I like safe chemistry like litm us tests, crystal m a k i n g ,
d i s p l a c e m e n t a n d p o l y m er chem istry. It has m ade life way easier.
In short, what they said :P GO O D L U C K !
Charles Owlen Picket April 16th, 2008, 12:58 PM

The depth of the question: "what do you need to know that for?" is a very insidious trap. To enter into it in any way what so
ever, invites problems. Therefore I sta y as far as I can from that invasive garbage.
There is no "acceptable" way to even answer the query! "I wanted to know about that because I'm curious about "X,"Y", & "Z"."
is just a stall before the questioner dem ands that the knowledge is forbidden & YO U are displaying wrong thinking.
Both Left & R ight use this technique & it shuts down all attem pts to gain m ore m aterial. W hat's m ore, it pla ces the questioner
in a position of subservience & subm issive attem pts to calm the storm of derision.
If one should respond with anger (perhaps the best technique) & state "because I'm curious! Is that allowed, mien fuhrer?"
The response may be a continuance of "why are you curious about something so destructive"? In which case any explaining &
m o v i n g f r o m a n g e r i s s e e n a s e x p l a i n i n g a w a y a t r a n s g r e s s i o n . I f y o u t h i n k a b o u t it, it's a "no-win" scenario.
~-{Off Topic Editorializing}-~
That is exactly why some people have adopted a "code" to find like-minded people.
The "code" works som ething like this:

"Oh I was into pyro stuff when I was a kid" (This statem ent in re s p o n s e t o s o m e o p e n i n g l i k e a r e m ark about a fire or
explosion; never a beginning statement!) The other party will say som ething like "You too?", "O h, you like that crap also?",
"Yeah, when I was a kid, I goofed around with all sorts of experiments & hobbies"....."Oh Hell, I still enjoy stuff like that but I
don't have tim e to play around like when I was younger". "Me to o, I haven't kept up with it, but I still think it's fun". "W ell ju st
the other day I was thinking a bout some crap I did when I was into that stuff: I used to (insert something very light-weight
here)"..... The response you get will te ll you if you have a "brother" or a problem .
Never self-incrim inate or speak of anything even remotely destructive or dangerous. Let the other person talk first.....& if he
does be aware of entrapment. Safe subjects are legal activities. There are plenty of legal activities that are deeply "pyro" & will
start a "show m e yours & I'll show you mine" conversation. You can never be too careful in this day & age. And rem e m ber
s o m e people are nuts. I always steer clear of n uts like the plague! Be ve ry carefu l of anyone who wants you to provide physical
m aterial' or to purcha se (or even m idd lem an) chemicals, etc. A "brother" will never want you to put your ass on Front Street &
put yourself in a position of risk. He m ay be a stupid jackass (& that's not a brother) and know no better: steer clear of him
because that's a K3wL. A fool such as that will bring you grief. Anyone who is worth knowing is someone who respects your
needs for safety, etc.
In this hobby I have known (well) four people. I could trust them all to not do stu pid shit, risking the comm unity's safety,
other's well being or their own. W e all m et by com plete accident. One fellow passed away from cancer at 68yrs old (too fucking
young), another moved away but we still mail each other and the others are still around......That's about 13-18 yrs back in
history. None of them EVER asked m e t o d o a n y t h i n g e v e n r e m otely stupid.
T h e h o b b y s h o u l d b e f u n . H a r m ing people or property is nuts, not fun: use comm o n s e n s e .

Geez, I feel waves of sobriety washing over me as I rea d t h e s e r e s p o n s e s . I g u e s s I s o m e h o w t h o u g h t m y h o b b i e s w o u l d b e
n o b i g d e a l , a n d , t o s o m e d e g r e e , p e r h a p s e v e n s e c u r e m e a position. In reality, I could be at risk of inform i n g s o m eone who
has knowledge in this area that I com m it federal offenses.
Alas, that's the core duality of this area of interest. At som e point, when you start "having fun", you are putting yourself at risk
in m ore ways than on e. At one end of the scale you have the kids that take the chances, they use the know-how to gain
popularity or make a quick bu ck in high school.
T h e n t h e r e a re those who are so covert as to tell not a living soul, to practice energetics like some persecuted religion. Those
who, deep down feel guilty and unsure of themselves.
I s u p p o s e m o s t o f u s f l o a t s o m ewhere between the two poles. There is, however, always risk of not staying true to ourselves,
or being carted off, or forced to give up the interest forever.
megalomania April 17th, 2008, 12:25 AM

The question of "what do you need to know that for?" is one of the big reasons I started The Forum to begin with. Here we are,
the one exception to the rule that question is always ba d news :)
If you caught the quote on the front page from o n e o f m y chemistry professors, he sum m ed it up very succinctly: "Chem istry =
bad" (in the m i n d s o f a v e r a g e p e o p l e ) .
Secong Nature April 17th, 2008, 03:08 AM

" C h e m istry=Bad" - So true, of course the irony is that m ost drug m akers don't even know what the hell they are actually
m aking apart from shit that gets you high. Most explosives are probably stolen from the m ilitary than actually m a d e b y h o m e
cooks.
I'm not sure about th e US and explosives but I would think that mention i n g m a k i n g s o m e legal th o u g h d a n g e r o u s t h i n g s
could work. It's proba bly quite legal to make nitrocellulose in som e countries without any need for perm ission, if you get a
g o o d r e s p o n s e t o t h a t then you could go ahead with m ore to impress.

" C h e m istry = bad" (in the minds of average pe ople).
Its all part of the dum bing down of society, if people ha d always had this attitude that curisoity and intelect were things to be
feared we'ed still be living in cold, dark caves p icking the fleas o ut of our pubes. (And som e day, if these a titudes continue, we
just might.)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Som e good news for the
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FRIED CHICKEN April 11th, 2008, 09:17 PM

D e m onoid is back up!!! (http://www.dem o n o i d . c o m )
Personally, d e m o n o i d i s m y favorite tracker. Unfortunately, they went offline a few months ago because their server providers
were pressured in Canada.
But now, und er a new site adm inistrator, and on new servers, they are back up!
So to celebrate this occasion, I will be giving out invite codes. If you want an invite, please PM m e .
Mr Science April 11th, 2008, 09:20 PM

S a m e here.
I will be moving all of m y TPB torrents to Dem onoid, so they will be the same torrent running m ultiple track ers. :)
And of course, the account still mentions RS (and readm e in the torrent), so I expect the return of Dem o n o i d t o g i v e u s
another spike in mem bership here.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Q uestion (Relationship advice)
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Kaydon April 13th, 2008, 12:02 AM

How would you feel if a "friend" who happened to be the cousin of a girl you're trying to establish something with, goes and
tells her that you're b ad news?
F a m ily relation nonse n s e a s i d e .

That's pretty harsh re ally. I had som e "friends" that did that. They told a girl I wa s s e e i n g t h a t I w a s b a d n e w s , a n d s h e b r o k e
up with m e. Pretty shattering experience.
About your problem , there are so many variables, but this is how I see it. If som e o n e t o l d m e that som e o n e I k n e w ( a n d w a s
interested in) was bad news, I wouldn't give a shit. Even if they were related to me, I wouldn't care. Interested is interested.
There is nothing that you can really say. You are at quite a disadvantage, but the best thing to do would be no to get too
d e f e n s i v e a b out it. By getting angry, or doing anything vengeful you just reinforce what he said. I would bide m y tim e , a n d i f
she turns stone cold towards you, she probably wasn't worth it if she can just change her o p i n i o n o f s o m e o n e b a s e d o n a n o t h e r
persons advice.
If she wasn't interested in you in the first place, I don't think it is worth it. Just ha n g a r o u n d a n d s e e w h a t h a p p e n s . T a k e n o
reve nge on your "friend" until later. R evenge is a dish best served cold a nd all that.
To the question, I would feel very pissed off. Very. But doing anything would be b ad for your situation. If you have nothing to
l o s e ( s h e i s n 't ever going to b e interested now, and he can't be of any use to you) then revenge is a salve for the soul. Go for
it. Kick his ass down physically, or if yo u are m ore of the plotting type, sit back and sabotage any relationship he EVER tries to
have.

W ell, it depends. Are you in fact "bad news"? I'm not assuming anything, but if you're trying to sta rt a relationship so you can
get in her pa nts, then chances are this guy will have the upper h and. If your reasons are true, honest, and you want to start a
real relationship, then this guy is a dick.
The best way to hand le this would be to let you r actions speak louder than your words. W hen reacting to what he said, don't
become angry and lash out, that certainly won't get you anywhere. Don't be sarcastic and don't overreact. T hese typ e s o f
reactions fee d the fire. Diffuse the situ ation with calm ly explaining yourself to her as to why he is in fact wrong. Explain how you
will prove it through your actions, and then be patient.
T o h i m , sit him down and be direct. Don't beat around the bush, just sit him down and explain to him why he is wrong and how
you were offended by his actions. If he trys to get physical with you, kick his ass. It was self defense. ;)
I know it sou n d s l i k e y o u h a v e t o b e a p u s s y , b u t s o m t i m e s y o u just have to hum ble yourself and go for it. Believe me, I'm
m arried. If shes not worth all this trouble, than she probably wasn't worth it in the first place. Good luck.
Dr. Phil

W on't we need to actually define "bad news"? If som e o n e s a y i s a m e m ber of PETA and you hunt....you're "bad news": yes? I
would guess that would be the take on it.... I don't know if this forum is the best place to get relationship advice but it seem s
pretty fun to take a b reak from d i s c u s s i o n s o f c o m b i n g o n e ' s h a ir with TATP to get it into an office.
I a m also m arried (for quite som e time however so it's been a REAL long tim e since I dated) and actually I think EVERYONE in
any relationship will h a v e s o m e o n e , s o m e w h e r e s p e a k a g a i n s t t h e m t o s o m e d e g r e e . T o e x p e c t o t h e r w i s e i s t o a s s u m e that
everyone would believe that YO U are a wonderful person. I don't know about anyone else but I don't think you can be
cognizant and functional witho u t e x p r e s s i n g a n o p i n i o n : t h u s t a k i n g a s t a n d .
Once you do that you incur the wrath o f those who hold opposing views. So everyone (som e m ay, but not e v e r y o n e ) y o u m e e t
in life will not approve of you IF you are a functional hum an being. It's a sim ple reality of existence.
NOW , i f y o u a r e s p e a k i n g t o t h e i s s u e o f h a v i n g s o m e o n e e x p r e s s a n o p i n i o n a s t o y o u ' r e a p p r o p r i a t e n e s s t o t h e e n d o f
ruining your chances for happiness; that person who you are dating would have to be pretty easily swayed to change due to
s o m e wonder-speak (wunderspreken = words o f wisdom , etc).

I appreciate all the advice fellas. I was unsure about po sting the thread, thought I might get laughed at. Hahaha, y'all are
better than that though.
B u t , i t ' s d o o m e d . B a c k s t a b b i n g m otherfucker has convinced m ost of her fam ily th at I'm evil. For som e t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d 1 0
years ago. She doesn't want to break up but she doesn't know how we'll work around them , and neither do I.
For the record, I'm not bad news.

Kaydon - You are with her? Sh it that changes everything.
Getting around the fa mily hating you is kind of hard. But as I tend to say, who are you dating? Her family or her?
Fuck her fam ily. Who gives a shit what they say? Anyway, you have one of the m ost potent weapons for your side.... her.
She has just about/m o r e c h a n c e o f c h a n g i n g h e r f a m i l i e s o p i n i o n s a s t h e c o c k s m u d g e t h a t m a d e t h e m s o u r i n t h e f i r s t p l a c e .

She will do m ore for your cause than any other at this stage.
It isn't doom ed. That's just bullshit. She is alive, you are alive. Nothing is doomed until one of you die. Then it turns into
R o m eo and Juliet, an d you are both fucked. But until th en, you are cool *grin*.
Just relax into things. If she wants to see you that badly, then h er fam ily isn't going to stop her. Treat her right, and she will
change her parents opinion of you (hopefully).

W ell revenge is out of the question now, at least while you are with her anyway.
You will be bad news to som eone at all tim es, if her fam ily are Catholic Multiculturalists then you are very b ad news.
If you can find out why they think you are bad news then attem pt either to change your actions or their opinions.
Hitech_Hillbilly April 17th, 2008, 06:29 PM

W ell, you m ight as well as give us som e i d e a o f the thing that happened 10 years ago (you can m a k e i t g e n e r a l e n o u g h t o
give us the idea without giving away your identity). And did he give the fam ily specifics, or just say you were bad news?
One way you can spin it is by putting it down to youth. Say you were a little "wilder" when you were younger; that you've grown
u p s i n c e t h e n . M a n y p e o p l e c a n a p p r e c i a t e a n d accept that, especially if you don't act like a horses ass everywhere you go.

She couldn't handle it. We broke it off. O h well I suppose, plenty of fish in the sea as they say.
I used to get into fights, I didn't (and still don't) take shit from people. But I don 't go smacking wom e n a r o u n d s o I d o n ' t
know what m y form er friends problem is. I'm no leather jacked tough-guy. I've given and taken beatings. Meh. It's ancient
history. I ten d to avoid confrontation these days. I can't afford going to the hospital.
Not sure if I want revenge or not.

Sorry to hear that ma te. Perhaps it is for the best. There are ple nty more fish in the sea, if that is what you want.
S o m etimes I think NBK was right when he said wom en are more trouble than they are worth.
-=HeX=- April 19th, 2008, 05:36 AM

Nbk once said: 'love is like a ham mock, suspended over a sit of bungi sticks... Great while you are in it, he ll when you fall out.
T h e r e f o r e i t i s g o o d t o g o n e a r the ham mock, but to ge t in is to enter a world of pain' or something to that effect. He was
right.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Analysis of Nitrocellulose
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Backgroud story: Last year of high school chemistry assignment is to undertake a quantative analysis. I though studying the effect of nitrating equalibriums upon cellulose
polymers would be a good one.
Basically I was wondering what people know about analysing NC. My ideas are to purify with acetone and reweigh the product as well as before and after weights of the
cotton/NC.
Is it possible to titrate NC somehow? Could the polymer be broken down while in acetone and therefore measured?
All thoughts and ideas are welcome.
Note: I would have put this as a think tank about the properties of NC elsewhere but as this is for selfish reasons I don't think it deserves a place anywhere else, but feel free
to move it.

What exactly are you trying to determine? Yield of nitrated cellulose, the degree of nitration of the polymer, or something else? What are you trying to determine with a
titration?
deinewelt April 16th, 2008, 07:08 AM

So far, I have never performed the synthesis of NC on my own, but I'm hoping to give you some useful ideas. As I am myself interested in this problem, I searched the net for
a bit of information and found a method of determining the nitrogen content in NC by using potentiometric titration with Fe(II)-salt which is also used in industrial production of
NC.
the firm metrohm provides a datasheet/ instruction for its analysis apparatus. It basically states:
- weigh 150mg sample of NC into a 100ml flask and add 80ml conc. H2SO4 to dissolve. place the whole thing into ice cooled bath
- fill up to the mark the flask
- take 20 ml of the sample solution and titrate with c[(NH4)2Fe(SO4)2] = 0.12 mol/L
note that the firm mentions a "combined Pt-electrode" whatever that means, perhaps you know it Mega.
A guy from another forum makes his electrodes out of copper wire and Pt. using a standard ohmmeter. At this point I see some problems as I have no information on the
distance of the two electrodes AND more imortant: the measurement error you might have if you don't use exactly the same materials they use.
I haven't tried this out at the lab I am currently but probably I will in the following month.
the final calculation will be according to the instructions given by metrohm (sorry for this being just copy and paste):
%N = a*b*c*d/(e*f*g)
a - titrant consumption in mL
b - 20.0 (volume of the sample solution used for the titration in
mL)
c - 0.12 (concentration of the titrant in mol/L)
d - 14.01 (M(N) in g/mol)
e - 100 (conversion factor for %)
f - 2 (stoichiometric factor: 2 Fe2+ react with 1 N)
g - ca. 1.5 (mass concentration of the sample solution in g/L nitocellulose)
I have read that you can pretty well calibrate the whole thing by doing it with KNO3 or salts of the like. Sorry for not providing you with real lab experience, but that is just the
knowledge I got together from an evening of searching the net.

Thanks heaps for that ill try it when i get back from holidays (just started) as i cannot titrate at home.
Mega I've decided to calculate the number of nitro groups, or the % nitrogen, possibly both.
I know that its possible to calculate the amount of OH groups replaced with NO2 groups by molecular mass but can it be done when both OH and H groups are being replaced?
In theory is it easier to nitrate OH groups than H groups? So if there was more than 3 nitro groups present you could see this and switch the calculations to nitration of a C-H
bond.
Secong Nature April 23rd, 2008, 09:20 AM

Sorry for the double post but could you please post where you got this Deinewelt info from as UTFSE hasn't helped me with this.
Hinckleyforpresident April 23rd, 2008, 02:13 PM

Sorry for the double post but could you please post where you got this Deinewelt info from as UTFSE hasn't helped me with this.
Surely users will be more likely to help you out if you demonstrate some basic English skills.
Also, clearly you have not UTFSE as google brings up the page at the top of the list (*hint: metrohm nitrocellulose).
In theory is it easier to nitrate OH groups than H groups? So if there was more than 3 nitro groups present you could see this and switch the calculations to nitration of a C-H
bond.
I believe that in general, it's easier to nitrate OH's than just H's.

Sorry for my inept search, I used the wrong keywords.
The grammer/english problems can be attributed to a problem that I have with written english.
Now all I need to do is some mathwork to see how to make all this work.
Thanks for the help guys!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > LSS License file?
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I g r a b b e d a file from the FTP called LSS_Locks m ith_Governm ent_License.rar a n d I s t u c k i n m y u n c a t e g o r i z e d f o l d e r s i n c e I
have no idea what it is. I foun d a website yesterday (http://ezpicking.com/forum /showthread.php?t=533) that talked about the
file being from roguesci.org and that it m a y b e s o m e l i c e n s e f i l e for a software app. W hat is this file for exactly? W hat
program , if indeed it is a prog ram , does this license unlock? I ju st want to know what this thing does and where to properly
organize the file.
Charles Owlen Picket April 16th, 2008, 01:19 PM

LSS is a locksm ith program that is a collection of entry techniques for locksm iths & governm ent-LEO types (entering buildings,
etc). It's a collection of short videos that describe the techniques. MO ST of them d e m a n d a b a c k g r o u n d i n b a s i c l o c k s m ithing
and a familiarity with the tools of the trade. Som e o f t h e m m a k e u s e o f V E R Y u n i q u e t o o l s t o i m plem ent the entry or lock
defeat.
T h e p r o g r a m w a s m a d e b y a c o m p a n y t h a t m a r k e t e d t o a d i s s i m ilar group of governm ent and private locksmiths. T he program

is also a m arketing plug for som e o f t h e t o o l s d i s p l a y e d .
T h e p r o g r a m has gradations of access: the "highest" being the "governm e n t " l e v e l b e c a u s e s u p p o sedly the techniques could
be misused.....like anything could NO T be misused? The little files are access codes for th e g r a d e s t h e r e i n .

Ahh, LSS+ infobase, is that the one? I don't suppose th is m aterial is ava ilable for download? I read it is a 10 CD collection o f
m aterial for the full gov package. There is a pdf on the FTP that looks like a printout of this database, but no m ultim e d i a
content.
I m ay not be using the right search terms beca use I didn't even find out who sell this thing. Perhaps it is already on the FTP
a n d I m issed it?

S o m e where around here I have both the program & the PDF. If you don't have access to a copy, let m e know, I'll u pload it.
Just took a look at it, not currently installed & I can't fig ure out what version it is from the files. I seem to rem e m ber from
when I had it installed before that it's an encrypted database (folio infobase?) with 3 or 4 levels of security, each level
reve aling m ore data. It seem s the PDF only has the info in the lowest level. W ould be nice to have a working unlock code...
/edit:
Feh! Even with unlock codes, it's probably only the public version , 700MB com p r e s s e d .
from their website:

LSS+ CD ROM COMPLETE SET
PUBLIC version of LSS+ (includes two disks) $2 75.00
LOCKSMITH version of LSS+ (includes six disks) $350.0 0
GOVER NMENT version of LSS+ (includes fourteen disks) $600.00
ALARMS (GOVERNMENT VERSION) includes four disks $250.00
LSS+ INDIVIDUAL CHAPTERS
W ith the rele ase of Version 5.0, you m ay now purchase individual chapters in LSS+ directly from security.org. If, after viewing a
chapter, you wish to purchase the full volum e o f LSS+, you will be given credit for one chapter or block of chapters that you
have previou sly paid for. To buy an individual chapter: fill out the Purchase form (LSS+CD icon), and select the desired
chapters. W e will send you an LSS+ disk with a special license to view that chapter. Please note that individual chapters are
sold without accompanying video disks that are contained with the full version of LSS+. You can find a com plete listing of all
chapters with in LSS+ in the on -line tour.
The following chapters are available:
CHAPTER 1 HISTORY + Alfred C. Hobbs book + George Price book $20.00
CHAPTER 5 METALLURGY $10.00
CHAPTERS 6-7-8 KEYS (including detailed inform ation on the Easy entrie profile m illing m achine) $10.00
CHAPTERS 8-11-16-31 MASTER KEYING (LOCKSMITH) $50.00
CHAPTERS 8-11-16-31 MASTER KEYING (LOCKSMITH or GOVERNMENT) 3 volume set with video files $100.00
C H A P T E R S 1 3 - 1 4 - 1 5 - 1 6 L O C K S ( W a r d e d , L e v e r , W a f e r , P i n t u m bler) $25.00
CHAPTERS 24-25-26-27 FORENSIC INVESTIGATION $50.00
C H A P T E R S 2 8 - 2 9 - 3 0 - 3 1 C O V E R T METHODS OF ENTRY: PICKING, IMPRESSIONING, DECO DING $50.00
CHAPTER 28-29 PICKING: $25.00
C H A P T E R 2 8 - 3 0 I M P R ESSIO NING $25.00
C H A P T E R 2 8 - 3 1 ( L O C KSMITH VERSION) $25.00

C H A P T E R 3 2 F O R C E D E N T R Y $ 25.00
CHAPTERS 33-34-35-36-37 SAFES, LOCKS, FOR CED AND CO VERT ENTRY OF SAFES AND VAULTS $50.00
C H A P T E R S 3 8 - 3 9 - 4 0 S E C U R ITY AND ALARMS (LO CKSMITH VERSION) $60.00
CHAPTER 40 ALARMS (LO CKSMITH) $25.00 (GO VERNMENT) $40.00
CHAPTER 40 ALARMS (GOVERNMENT) four volume set $250.00
I want the whole thing, dam n it!:mad:
BlackFalcoN April 17th, 2008, 02:40 AM

The key is for the LSS+ 1.0 Folio database by Marc Tobias.
The full governm ent version is indeed 10 CDR OMs, but that includes all m ultim edia material.
The only version that I'm aware of that is available on the Internet is a single disc, 620MB version that usually goes by the
filen ame of 'LSS_Locksmith', which is the LSS Locksmith version, stripped of all m ultim edia content.
If somebody has the full 10 disc gov. collection , please share it with us, since it is very hard to find a governm ent agency that
will provide a pirated copy ;)
The PDF is the digital version of the book by Tobias: Lo cks, safes & secu rity 5
TOX April 17th, 2008, 02:57 AM

Nope you didnt m iss it, its not on the ftp.
Last tim e I went thru all the folders was a weak ago. And it is very likely that it wont be fo r some time, http://ezpicking.com /
forum /showthread.php?t=784 .Seeing how Mr. Tobias is sow respected by even some
(Im a s s u m i n g b y u s e r n a m e s ) m embers of the E&W forum , and he truly deserve s it, Ive read som e
LLS+ and hands down its the ultim ate material in security that Im aware of.
Thats all nice and go od, but thats not going to get my poor ass or the comm unitys ass, the book.
3 0 h o u r s o f v i d e o m i s s i n g f r o m the locksm ith version. I certainly regret reading that bit of info,
I hated wen I got that LSS+ infobase not found, looks like the good stuff too.
http://www.security.org/ And if you really need to be from an US governm ental ag ency,

probably FBI or otters, to perches those CDs or DVD then were screwed.

Personally I wasn't im pressed. The government presentation was a collection of very expe nsive, fo rm at specific tools that are
alarm specific, bla, bla. Yes, he m a k e s a h u g e d e a l o v e r " g r a n t i n g " a c c e s s t o g o v e r n m e n t e m ployees or what have you but so
could anyone create a folio database (actually an insecure form at! - you can knock it down) or wha tever and claim t o h a v e t o p
secret-squirrel shit and shush everyone with a finger to their lips about it's conten ts. No fucking way would I pay for the
m aterial therein.
Hemisync April 17th, 2008, 12:12 PM

I either own or have had a chance to view almo st all of Marc Tob i a s ' s m a t e r i a l s s o I a m t a lking from e x p e r i a n c e .
Marc Tobias is the creator of Locks Safes and Security. Its also called LSS
Its available as a book or a collection of cd-rom s or a dvd . This is known as LSS+CD
Its easy to get confused when talking about LSS locks safes and security
There are 2 editions of the actual book The 1st edition was published in the 1970s
It was very lim ited in content.
T h e b o o k p e o p l e t a l k about today is the 2nd edition published in 2002. It was a huge book with som e 40 chapters and having
over 1200 pages of text and black and white photographs.
I n a d d i t i o n t o t h e b o o k s , t h e r e h a v e b e e n a s e r i e s o f c d r o m s produced that have content from the origional books plus a lot
m ore content added and a series of videos to complete the package.
The cd-roms were sold in 3 se curity levels, public, locksm ith and governm ent.The first cd of all cd-rom colle ctions was identical
W ith the use of license codes what was viewable and what was hidden could be controled.
The first cd contained a file that could be thought of as a huge pdf file protected with
license keys. The software used was Folio Views and all files und er this system h a v e t h e
extention .nfo. Only folioviews.exe will open these files.
Version 4.05 of LSS h a d a f r e e d e m o o f t h e e n t i r e c o n t e n t l e s s t h e v i d e o s . T h i s w a s a n d i s s t i l l e a s l y f o u n d o n l i n e . T h e d e m o

was lim ited to 3 days.It was at the locksmith level.
V e r s i o n 5 o f L S S a l s o h a d a f r e e d e m o but you had to register with the author for a key code to view content.
Now what is often found online as well, is a keygen to create your own security license.
S o m e p e o p l e j u s t s h a r e a p r e m ade license file (.lcf file) that enables access to one or more of the 3 levels of infom ation.
One of the other files frequently found on line is a pdf produced by extracting the entire content of cd-rom at the locksm ith or
g o v e r n m e n t l e v e l . T h i s . p d f i s o f t e n o v e r 3 0 0 0 p a g e s l o ng and has content in full color. The book has mainly black and white
im a g e s .
S o m eone on this very site was offering a high quality scan of the actual book, not the cd content.
This whole series is now at a higher version and now is distributed on one DVD. A lot of ne w videos at all se curity levels are
available.
Available online is
1) Locks Safes and Security 2nd edition, the 1200 page book scanned as a pdf.
2) The first cd of the cd-rom collection either 4.05 or version 5.0
3) A precom piled license file granting various access privleges
4) A keygen program for creating custom license files.
Very hard to find are online versions of the videos that go with the collection.
If you are interested this is a pdf showing what is included with LSS +CD
http://www.security.org/m aster_exhibit_5.pdf
rafael July 9th, 200 8, 11:50 AM

A n y o n e h a s t h e k e y g e n p r o g r a m for creating custom license files that He misync (Hemisync, m a y b e y o u ? ) t a l k s a b o u t .
I could not find it anywhere....
I a m going to try to use in the Governm ent version.
Thanks.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Ricin Arrest
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phrankinsteyn April 16th, 2008, 06:31 PM

I read an interesting "news" article today concerning a person arrested for ricin production.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080416/ap_on_re_us/ricin_mystery
Uploaded article to phrankinsteyn folder for future reference.
Hinckleyforpresident April 17th, 2008, 04:47 AM

Here's the same story from CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/16/ricin.arrest/index.html?iref=newssearch
I find it very surprising they aren't [mis]labeling his arrest as "One of the greatest bioterrorism arrests in history" or something. Although I am a little curious what he was really
planning to do with that ricin....

Well the article said the ricin he made was 2.9% pure, mabye he way just trying to find a way to make purer ricin, just to see if he could make it.

Some people just don't know when to shut up. It sounds like this guy was babbling on and on about all his crimes to the police, he probably fell for that buddy cop routing
where they pretend to be interested in everything you do, cop probably told him he did the same stuff and maybe he could get a job in the crime lab... Then the floodgates
open and the incriminations spew fourth.
His lawyer was the only one with any sense, keeping the guy quiet.
The media may not be making a big deal out of this because the canary is likely still singing. He is probably talking about where he buried Hoffa by now. If the media makes
him out to be a monster (at the orders of their fedgov masters) he might wise up and shut his trap.
More likely he is just some over the hill bum living in a fleabag motel with a vial of bean curd and schizophrenic delusions. This would not be newsworthy.

What I found interesting is how they stated his purchase of the caster bean seeds were traced, the amount of time and fine he is facing, and charging his cousin. This could be
misinformation on their part (local law enforcement and FBI) to scare the rest of the "sheeple" or brilliant police work. :rolleyes:
Either way the laws/fines and keeping your hobbies to yourself are something to remember. Especially if you care about someone (so they are not taken down with you or
threatened with jail) or in the case of that special someone who no longer cares about you..........

I think only the gun charge may stick. In these cases they always throw the book at you, but I can't imagine they will have an easy time at trial trying to convince a jury he
had plans to go on a murder spree with a vial of bean curd. He will likely serve just as long in jail for the gun charge as with everything else, and that's a more solid case, so
he will likely plead out to the weapons charges and everyone goes away happy (well, maybe not so happy for Mr. Bergendorff).
Now what I would like to know is what prompted the motel manager to get the police involved when he received a few vials of powder, and why did the cousin give the vials
over to the manager to begin with? Beyond the obvious thought that vials contained drugs, why didn't they just throw the things away?
The purchase of the castor beans were not traced, the fedgov agents got lucky... "a June 2002 receipt for castor bean seed, purchased from a Michigan company, was found in
an Utah storage locker rented by Bergendorff.."
They were obviously looking for where he may have manufactured the ricin ("Police and homeland security officials have said they found no ricin contamination in any place
Bergendorff stayed."), and while searching they found the receipt. Serendipitous for them that the owner of a fake business kept business records :rolleyes:
It's rather funny when you think about it that nicotine from tobacco could be extracted with greater ease and purity, it is profoundly more available, and it is not that much less
toxic than ricin. Ricin is a natural substance, castor beans are easy to get, everyone knows about its toxicity, if this stuff is such a terrible weapon of mass destruction, how
come there have not been any massive attacks with it?
Because it is not something easily made into a weapon! Ricin is neither a weapon, capable of destruction, nor able to do anything in mass. Ricin is something that looks deadly
on paper, but in practice is just a can of beans.
EOD April 21st, 2008, 04:14 AM

Ricin has been used as a weapon before. Mostly for assinations such as Georgi Markov in London. But there are plenty of people who can easily make a refined product. Even
unskilled personnel could make large quantities of less refined Ricin and achieve similiar goals on large concentrations of people. Never undersetimate people who want to do
harm.
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megalomania April 21st, 2008, 12:04 PM

Exactly my point EOD, there has only been one notable assassination using ricin, and it made a mess of things, even though the target died in the end. The ricin had to be
physically injected to do the job. Any number of other poisons could have done exactly the same thing with the same effect.
The fear is ricin is somehow so much more toxic than all other poisons that is has the potential to kill thousands or millions with a bag full of beans. That is just not happening.
Ricin is not a nerve gas that can be aerosolized or vaporized, nor is it something that can be absorbed by touch.
The only practical value of ricin is that it can be easily obtained, cultivated, and prepared by ordinary people. They teach grade schoolers how to grow bean plants in dixie cups.
Growing castor beans is not that complicated.
Forensic toxological testing of ricin is now a reality, so it is not the undetectable poison it used to be. Having an undetectable poison is attractive to poisoners, and this may
have made ricin more attractive to them in the past.
My point is, ricin is not as extraordinary as the media makes it out to be. Ricin has been sensationalized by the fedgov and talking heads. People fear chemistry, and now they
have a poster child boogyman to hang those fears on. We have sold our common sense for a bag of magic beans :)
EOD April 22nd, 2008, 11:26 AM
I agree that Ricin is not the perfect agent. But then again Anthrax is one of the worse choices around yet (because of media hype) gets used. The amount of Ricin needed to
kill is also attractive to those intent on doing harm. The amount of material used to kill the London victim was contained in something the size of the head of a pin. The
materials to make the poison are also so much easier to get than say the precursors to Sarin. So while there are plenty of agents that could be used more effectively, the ease
of acquiring the raw materials, easy production of the poison, and media hype does make it a viable threat. Of course we don't have to worry about the same things we would
with other biological agents if you happen to be the person the poison is used on this is a moot point.
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Moderator note: Don't presume to tell someone like Megalomania that he is correct. To do so is mere foolishness. You are better of saying that you agree, as opposed to just
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mike-hunt April 23rd, 2008, 08:28 AM

What makes weapons such as anthrax and Rican so effective is not their killing power but the disruption to our every day lives. The whole post 9/11 anthrax mail scare only
resulted in 3 deaths and 17 hospitalized. A well placed Molotov could do better yet the way the masses respond to it is , Anthrax = Bio weapon = Weapon of mass destruction
= Terrorist = PANIC .The government reaction is to show the public the new measures that are being taken in an effort to ease this panic and millions are spent on mail
screening .All this was properly caused by some unknown nut bag with a grudge. That is why all nuts are now potential threats to world security.
megalomania April 23rd, 2008, 11:04 AM

The threat is no greater, only the perception of a threat. Your life is not disrupted by something that does not personally affect you. Only the lives of the dead, and those close
to them, are disrupted. The more death and destruction, the more security is threatened.
I didn't panic when I heard the news of Anthrax in the mail. I didn't panic on 9/11. Very few people were directly involved compared to the rest of the country. We all know
about from these events from the news, just like we all know Anna Nichole Smith is dead, and neither issue really changes how we live.
The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Wolf, wolf. Anthrax, ricin. The media is whipping the sheeple into a frenzy of fear and paranoia for nothing. We face a greater threat from
our own government creating totalitarian laws and militarizing the police than we do from some loner with a vial of bean curd or an envelope of white powder.
EOD April 23rd, 2008, 05:12 PM

megalomania you have hit the nail on the head. Most people would be better off remembering the 1930s and the use the Nazi Party put to a "terrorist" attack. Ricin can be
used as a weapon. So can many other things. It would be relatively easy to cause mass amounts of chaos in this country by attacking the power grid and othet key
infrastructures. But relatively small attacks have expanded the powers of The Fed Government drastically. Most would benefit from reading Franklin's words and the lessons of
history.
Hirudinea April 23rd, 2008, 08:31 PM

The job of a terrorist is to terrorize, if making ricin, or anthrax or giant inflatible monkyes attached to the Empire State buliding will terrorize the people than thats what you do,
weather its an effective attack on the infrastructure of the nation isn't really inportant.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Do you believe everything happens for a reason?
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I feel that in order to believe in such a thing you would have to believe in one of the many god's man has created. The "master plan."
Bad things happen to good people? I suppose, but how about being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Hell, I'm no saint and I have a whole lot of bad luck. To quote Willie
Nelson "If it weren't for bad luck I wouldn't have any," but then again it's been said that whatever you go through will shape you into what you are, which I believe... and I
suppose things could happen for a "reason" to shape you into what you're "supposed" to be, but then that goes into "master plan" w hich I feel is poppycock.
I think life is just a game of chance.
How about you all?
deinewelt April 17th, 2008, 05:38 PM

Well, I can only speak for myself but the shaping you mentioned even makes a bad experience a good experience in my opinion. On the other hand, could it be possible, that if you tend
to develop your charac ter in one direction you are seeking to make these essential experienc es? That would be an argum ent against the Master Plan . Experience is essential for us the
human being but does this imply that it is not our own will to go through any kind of trouble?
The point Im trying to make is: is it really bad luck that we fall into suc h situations that have a deep im pact on us or are we seeking the change? This is pro and contra to the Master
Plan -philos ophy. Right at the m om ent I feel like I am seeking every shaping experience. The other way, I might be sitting at home doing nothing but getting up for work and getting to
bed. Bad luck would be doing nothing and being arrested innocent.
I think you are actually right! Life is a game of c hance. But it is our nature to play the gam e and not the other way round. This is true freedom, isnt it?

How does a village full of children getting raped and murdered shape their lives? How does getting up and going to work every day for 50 years and then dieing shortly retiring
shape lives?
People like to cling to the idea there is some god watching over them and that everything will be OK, or they are not really responsible for their actions. Religion, like crack and
masturbation, makes you feel good for a little while, but ultimately it means nothing.
Such debates are also rather futile because there is no way to prove any side right or wrong.

Perhaps Mega, Perhaps.
I agree that the w hole "Does God exist?" doesn't really have an answer, unless you are willing to kill yourself, but then no one else can find out can they?
But perhaps everything does happen for a reason. Opposed to it actually being for a "higher purpose", perhaps everything happens because someone w ants it to happen. Cause
and effect, so to speak.
To clarify, isn't it strange that there are certain breakthrough in science, but once someone has been able to such and such, everyone can do it.
It took a few years for the US to make the atom bomb, but once they had, atom bombs were like ass holes - everyone had one.
Same with other breakthroughs. It isn't such a far stretch to think that the mass of human consciousness can effect something as unpredictable and uncertain as reality at the
quantum level.
While I don't believe in a God and His Divine Will (TM), I have seen w ay too many freaky things happen. Things that have been too close for comfort, things that should have
killed me, but I w alked away, things that are just really strange, to believe that there is nothing out there and everything is completely random.
This is where I disagree w ith you Mega. I believe that it would/will be possible to prove the effect of the human mind on reality, and I am pretty sure that w e w ill find that your
mind effects reality around you.
Well, that is what I think anyw ay.

I was driving in tow n and a large truck almost sidesw iped me. Inside were some erstwhile Mexicans enjoying their employer's vehicle w hile swilling booze. They solidly crashed
into some poor fuck trying to mind his ow n business. They did attempt to flee and (of course) did not attempt to help the injured party in the street. It made me fucking sick
with anger and revulsion.
Little kids getting AIDS did not upset God's plan by sodomizing in bath-houses, they were born into that agenda. "Born into Sin"? I have a tough time with that. I have a tough
time with "Original Sin" w herein the most perfect element of humanity; the newly born, is tagged with loathsome rectitude due to the unseen history of ancestral transgressions.
Personally I don't feel comfortable with believing something that does not make sense. A Random Universe makes sense in the light of the above examples of everyday life.
There is a God because unexplained things annoy those who want a lock on all the answ ers & because dying is fucking scary (ask anyone over 50). However that in itself does
NOT make the concept of a Divine Being incorrect or false. Those who Question will never be comforted by their questions. That, in itself makes for more silence by those who
receive no comfort by the maelstrom of cyclic answers & questions.
Therefore, it may really not matter one bit if someone Believes or not. "There are no Atheists in foxholes" is more the hallmark of the Question than the Answer. The concept of
"Forgiveness" is indicative of the nature of the question as well. People change over time; as they should.
ETCS (Ret) April 20th, 2008, 05:56 PM

Very interesting discussion here.
It's taken a while to sink in, but now I am able to see evidence of a Creator very abundantly all over this incredible planet.
Our "environmental programming" from childhood through our formative years often leads us to have too much "faith" in the opinions of "learned" men and "science."
The so-called "religions" and their dogma have propagated many errors by use of methods very much akin to those used for "mind control" in black ops programs.
The health benefits of "forgiveness" are gradually becoming well established. The human flaw of giving ourselves a "pass" w hile holding grudges, resentments and hatreds
against others will always result in a very unpleasant life w ith ill will and bad health.
Can we as people ever stop doing and thinking bad towards our fellows w ho are somew hat different than w e?
Not without some major re-training. Many expect that will be coming soon.
What is most difficult for me to comprehend is how America has been transformed over several decades into the arrogant, vengeful, unmerciful, deceitful, w ar-mongering
psycho-political machine that we are now.
Asriel May 6th, 2008, 12:14 AM

Simple Answer, no, I do not, there is not proof.
TreverSlyFox May 11th, 2008, 03:29 AM

Speaking for myself, yes I do believe everything happens for a reason. But then I'm a Southern Baptist in the Missouri Ozarks and that should tell you everything before you
even ask.
sbovisjb1 May 18th, 2008, 10:28 PM

I believe that the decisions that you make to day affect what you are or happens to you in the future. Its solid advice and true. Your destiny is in your hands. For every force
there is an opposing force. Those sage words will make you think and realize that you shouldn't w ait around for something to happen, you should do it! That said philosophy is
like an erection, the more you think about it the harder it gets.
file May 25th, 2008, 09:38 AM

I believe that the big man upstairs doesn't step in all that often.
As for proving that he does or does not exist, can't happen.
Emil June 3rd, 2008, 07:28 PM

One could write pages and pages upon this type of thread, however I believe it has already been said relitivley w ell. These discussions don't really gain anything, as people who
believe, usually are so convinced that they cannot see the other side of the story. All I will say is things most definitely do not happen for a reason. Nothing is written. You do
what you w ant and consequences come from your chosen actions.
I'll just say this, there are only two real things that exist in this world. Science and Math. Everything else is manmade,and that means everything. Religion is just for the masses,
and makes the sheep feel comfortable. Maybe the thought of nothing after death scares them, maybe they were born into a given enviroment and were influenced/forced by
family members and friends.
There are 100's of religions, alot of it is related to geographical where abouts. Don't tend to see many christans in Iraq do you????
Each and every religion will be convinced their religion or God is the Correct, or the only one.
Without man, there is no God.
Rbick June 5th, 2008, 10:54 AM

there are only two real things that exist in this world. Science and Math. Everything else is manmade,and that means everything
Before I start, I w ant to say that I do not mean to offend anyone with these statements. The above statement confuses me. Math is not natural, it is in fact man made. Math is
simply symbols to represent the physical world w e live in so we can try and understand it. You don't see math equations growing on trees do you? Numbers are man made, and
so are scientific theories/facts/law s. They simply describe our world in our language, whether it be the language of math, English, or whatever. Languages are man made for
that matter!
I totally agree with you that consequences are caused by our ow n choices, and I do believe in free will. But w ould it not be possible for you to be put in situations w ith choices,
and the route that you chose will determine the outcome? In this sense, would it not be possible that you are in fact put in certain situations for a reason? For instance, lets say
you are given an extraordinary chance to save a young child who is trapped in a fire. You are in that situation for the reason of being given the CHOICE to decide w hether you
are willing to risk your life for another persons. What will it be? Saying everything happens for a reason doesn't mean it w ill happened statically. I don't think something/
someone that created the universe could be stumped by the simple question "Does everything happened for a reason?" and by the simple answ er, "No, there is no great
mystery to life, just math and evolution"(would this in fact make Math and Science your "God"?). After all, I don't think God is some big dude w ith a beard sitting in a chair
making decisions for us. As St. Augustine put it, he is IN everything, part of everything. You can read it in his book "Confessions", somew here in chapter 2 or 3, I can't
remember. Best look it up for yourself.
I do believe in God and the teachings of Christ, but I'm NOT all that into religion. Religion is just a bunch of rules made up by Catholics 2000 years ago that are not relevant
today, or ever were for that matter. Jesus actually taught the complete opposite of religion and legalism! Its unfortunate that people base their opinion on a supreme being on
what faulty and imperfect humans do. I am kind to everyone, not just Christians, and I live my life the best that I can, trying to set a good example. Its a feeling of freedom.
Not freedom in the sense you can do whatever you want, because in this case you just became a slave to yourself. The idea and meaning of freedom is material for another
thread, perhaps in the philosophy section ;)
I am not afraid of death, as I have proven on several occasions (jumping out of airplanes and helicopters into combat isn't exactly safe :D), but it sure gives you a better
outlook on life to know there is more than just science and math.
So you guys don't get the wrong idea, I'm not a die hard evangelical creationist. I actually taught a high school class on evolution for a semester and I'm throughly intrigued by
the theories of relativity (basically 99.9999% proven) and the new ly discovered and gaining in popularity Unifying String theory. I love chemistry and doing chemical equations,
as strange as that sounds. Out of all of this and its complexity, is it hard to imagine that something/someone started it all? If you can believe in something as crazy as string
theory, you can believe that there is a God ;)
Hope I didn't offend anyone. Responses and criticism are welcome of course :)
armchairsapper June 14th, 2008, 04:06 AM

I'm somewhat surprised at seeing this topic on a forum about energetic materials.... It just goes to show the depth of the members. Even though I'm an agnostic leaning
towards atheism; I find myself agreeing with Rbick. Over all religion is a pretty good thing. For the most part the major ones teach morality and wisdom. It is when one
particular person or persons use a religion to forward their own agenda (ie. Jihad, crusades, etc) that it becomes a vehicle for evil deeds; however, when that happens it is more
a form of socialism (centralized government) than a religion.
The w hole "no atheist in a foxhole" is more of a catechism than anything. I've taken fire. When I did; it was more along the lines of "FUCK!!... SHIT.... This sucks... then: I'm
going to kill that bastard!".
IriOfTheSnow June 25th, 2008, 05:11 AM

Before I start, I w ant to say that I do not mean to offend anyone with these statements. The above statement confuses me. Math is not natural, it is in fact man made. Math is
simply symbols to represent the physical world w e live in so we can try and understand it. You don't see math equations growing on trees do you? Numbers are man made, and
so are scientific theories/facts/law s. They simply describe our world in our language, whether it be the language of math, English, or whatever. Languages are man made for
that matter! :)
By definition, math and science are existence. Depending on your definition, math and science either are the forces w hich make up existence, or are ow n devices used to define
these forces.
Math equations actually do grow on trees. An apple is an apple instead of a fork because math. You take apart anything in existence to the most basic forms and you get
equations describing/defining it's existence. It's the clockwork behind the clockwork. Think of math as the action of a gear train w orking, instead of the gears themselves, or a
prediction of their actions. It's not an object, or a boundary. It simply is. When you add 1 + 1, math is the "= " before the 2, not a rule which makes 1+ 1=2. Math and science
do not go hand in hand with logic necessarily. If you, somehow, manage to "prove" (the tricky part) that there is a god and he surpasses the rules of logic, then by definition
math and science will include it.
That's what I trust. Math and science. They are, by definition absolute truths and anything w e do to try and achieve these truths. They are not more explanations, they are
truths.
As for the whole god thing...

http://dresdencodak.com/cartoons/dc_019.htm
I think we can get a laugh out of this.
Remember, it might offend the religious a bit, but the non religious are either going to burn in hell, or face the infinite oblivion of nothingness. Which sucks.

That comic is hilarious! I love Tesla in the metal speedo, and the dragons.
I guess it does depend on your definition of "w hat is". Yes science and math describe the way our universe works, but they certainly don't run it. Basically w hat I'm trying to say
is, without language or man, math and science wouldn't exist because there would be no language to describe it. The law s would still exists, but there w ould be no "numbers"
per se, or Quantum theories, or anything. A dog can see that when two people stand in front of it, there is multiple people, but I doubt it can understand the actual concept of
numbers or the fact that doubling the amount would equal 4. Therefore, if the most intelligent life form on the planet was a dog, then w ould math not exists as the dog is not
able to understand the concept? I think we are maybe just using different words to describe the same thing, but I think w e are basically in agreement that these laws and forces
would exists regardless of levels of understanding.
Science and math are not all fact or truth, as there have been many theories proven wrong that on paper, w orked very well. However, the ways of the universe had a different
idea in mind. This fault arose most likely from our misunderstanding of our world. Would that make our system of science flawed until w e found the right answ er? Will we ever
find it?
I'm not trying to say math and science are stupid in any w ay, as I have much respect for both fields and actual study both on my free time. How ever, to think that something
greater than ourselves is responsible for creating the laws and forces we use math and science to understand is not ridiculous, or at least I don't think so.
I understand there is a lot of criticism and hatred aimed at those w ho call themselves Christians, and I have felt the results of those feelings. I also understand that people have
a view of those who believe in God as scripture quoting idiots who simply plug their ears when the idea of evolution is throw n at them and w ho hate people who don't believe
the same thing as them. While there are people like that, I personally do not agree w ith their actions. I don't hate these people and in fact hope that they learn how to treat all
people as Jesus taught. Many of them seem to be caught up in rules created by men, or their religion. Like I said, I'm not all that into religion, but religion (search the definition
of religion in the dictionary) and faith are two completely different matters. No one is perfect, and w ho am I to judge? I would never treat someone differently based on their
beliefs, and there are many w ho share my stand point. Many of my friends and members of my family don't even believe the same way I do. The way I personally came to
believe was through research, a friend of mine w ho got me involved in Biblical studies, and my wife. It is not just through studying the Bible I have come to these conclusions.
For just one example, actual secular accounts of Jesus can be read, as they did keep records in that time. Anyone can deny that there is a God because of bitterness and hate,
which often seems to be the case. Hate is one of the most powerful but easy emotions, and it often prevents people from seeking truth without bias.
I'll shut up now ;)
fluoroantimonic July 18th, 2008, 03:25 AM

Jesus might have been a great guy, and religion has done a lot of good in the w orld. A lot of bad too, and w hich is more prevalent can be debated all day. I have plenty of
respect for religious people. But at the end of the day, I can't swallow the whole premise no matter how hard I try. And believe me I try plenty, having a very Christian girlfriend
will do that to you... :(
I suppose I can explain everything in my life perfectly well without God, so I feel no need for it(him?).
One of the bigger factors for me is the diversity of religions. There are/w ere many hundreds of them, all claiming to be the only right one, all seeming just as valid. But then
why then should I have blind faith in this one and not another? Hmmm, or maybe they're all wrong...
It seems to all come down to how a person is raised. It is well know that people will see things that are not there simply because they w ant to. And when you are taught all
your life that God exists and have come to depend on it, there is a very strong need to keep that belief even if there is no real reason. Conversely I am so entrenched in my
believes that even with some kind of extraordinary proof or motivation, I would have a very hard time truly believing in something that I have never needed nor seen reason
for.
Maybe I can just blame Marilyn Manson for all my problems :p
Just my 2 cents.
Love the thread by the way, I like how it has so far stayed pretty friendly and free of bullshit.

Heh, w ho says math doesn't run everything. Unless/until someone steps outside of 'reality', observers and comes back w ith a report we won't know. IIRC I was reading in a
religous text which mentioned that science as we know it can not (dis)prove Gods existance, but faith can and in one chapter the protagonist actually sees god doing stuff.
another book suggest that the dogma is not important but the intent is.
hickey August 3rd, 2008, 05:36 AM

There are s om e issues or things in this univers e that that defies scientific explanation,
As if its beyond science, most of us w ill use religion to find some light in it.
We have to keep in mind that :

The realization of religious truth is based on intuition...
And true scientific understanding is based on reason
The question of the OP was that:

Do you believe in everything happens for a reas on?
There will be no clear logical explanation for such query; but if thought intuitively there should be.:cool:
But that w ould not led to an amenable agreement to most of us that have been brought and schooled on logical way of reasoning....
Cobalt.45 August 10th, 2008, 03:38 PM

Religion/faith is a place keeper for where knowledge will go, when it's "know n".
James August 19th, 2008, 12:34 PM

replacement for my previous post: I hope that there is a reason for the big picture but freedom in the details. If there is no meaning to anything, and we might as well become
nihilists. If the details are set in stone at the beginning of time, then w e're just victims of the environment and may as do as our bodies tell us. Note: my argument could lead to
a wanking discussion on free w ill vs. predestination, w hich is about what this boils down to.
Positron August 26th, 2008, 12:53 PM

I suppose I can explain everything in my life perfectly well without God, so I feel no need for it(him?).
...There are/w ere many hundreds of them, all claiming to be the only right one, all seeming just as valid. But then w hy then should I have blind faith in this one and not
another? Hmmm, or maybe they're all wrong...
Yep, what fluoroantimonic said.
I think that the problem with religion is reality. God is in my life? Where! Jesus saves the little children? Is that so!
Heh, my own Mother once said a "Thank you Lord for this Food" prayer one time, when a nice dinner that I bought her w as served. I promptly reminded her that Jesus did not
put that food there, I put that food there, and that if she didn't believe me I could take it away.
Some people w ant to believe so badly, that they actually do, even whilst no evidence supports their belief. (*cough cough* WEAK).
As far as everything happens for a reason or not; I think that everything happens. I am perfectly content not knowing if it's for any reason, as I believe that not-knowing is a
fundamental part of being human. There are a great many things that I'll never know the answer to. I do know that I've been given a minimum of one life. I'll try to enjoy that
life, help my fellow man enjoy his life, and to push forward in understanding the Universe as a race.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > WMD and AN
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phrankinsteyn April 22nd, 2008, 09:39 PM

Another interesting article and a sad commentary of our times:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080422/ap_on_re_us/school_attack_plot
He is being charged with violation(s) of both federal and state laws.
Something else for our "fearless leaders" to use, against us, in their fight against terrorism and lawlessness.
ChippedHammer April 23rd, 2008, 06:23 AM

Where to begin....
Its clear that the kid was incredibly stupid, buying AN off eBay, keeping a detailed log that was not hidden and it seems that
he ordered the stuff in his parents name. Did he want to get arrested?
Although his parents ratting him out was a bit nasty, a severe beating and some psychological help would have been the
better option instead of getting him sent to prison for 10 years.
Its perplexing that they would class 5kg of AN as a weapon of mass destruction, if he had 5 tons of it with a suitable primary
and booster then that would be a diffrent matter. Also perplexing is the possession charge, whats scary about that is that a
whole lot of things would fall under that category. A bag of bolts, pipe caps, plastic jars and even water could be classed as
bomb making materials.
Authorities have said Schallenberger could have assembled deadly bombs within minutes with the materials they found
All I see is a kid with a bag of fertilizer and some ill wishes towards his school, It's clear that both the kid and the police have
no idea.
They say he was planning it for over a year, a person with half a brain could have done it in a week.
All flash no thunder IMO
Secong Nature April 23rd, 2008, 09:18 AM

Shit, kid would've tried to det it with a spark plug or pipebomb anyway.
This much shit over a kid like this, no wonder the US is so fucked up.
megalomania April 23rd, 2008, 10:50 AM

They can charge you with whatever they want, and they usually do, but making the case stick is another matter. Most of the
charges get dropped by court time (when the media forgets all about the case).
Does anyone have references to actual laws and statutes with the criteria they use to define what a weapon of mass
destruction is, and what the sentencing guidelines are? This "weapon of mass destruction" charge sounds like some Orwellian
nightmare straight from INGSOC.
While every home in America has bomb making components in the strictest sense (batteries, wires, fertilizer) the prosecutor
will have to prove his case to a jury first. If he had pipes and caps already drilled with fuse or detonators, sketches and
diagrams of completed explosive devices, and of course a journal or notebook detailing his tactical plans, I would say that
seem very guilty, and a jury would think so too.
This guy also completely throws the whole mad bomber disturbed loner personality profile completely out the window. A smart,
well adjusted, sociable, and popular kid with a bright future plotting something like this means ANY student is a potential
threat. I will even go as far to say I bet the kid gets off because he is so normal. If he keeps that confident smiling up in
court, a jury may not convict, or he will get a reduced sentence.
They are not going to give a teenager life in prison when he never even hurt anyone. He will be made out into some dreamer
acting out a creative fantasy that never would have been committed. Would he have been capable of actually taking a life?
Probably not, and that is an important distinction. Building a bomb is a boys-will-be-boys behavior, blowing up a school is the
act of a creepy loner with a grudge against the world.
Hinckleyforpresident April 23rd, 2008, 10:57 AM

They say he was planning it for over a year, a person with half a brain could have done it in a week.
All flash no thunder IMO
Generally, those with the intelligence to construct a large and effective charge also have the sense to not go about killing
people. It's the dumb ones who don't know jack-shit about explosives or chemistry who mail pipe bombs to strangers and try
to bomb their schools.
Charles Owlen Picket April 23rd, 2008, 11:15 AM

Actually for all the 'thunder" in the article; we don't really know shit! The kid buys a nitrate. The kid writes down fantasies,
fine....He doesn't act upon them for well over a year and an intervention by the authorizes blossoms.
Most every comment here has great validity...culminating in the largest question of, "was this really a threat of a potential
bombing?" or was it just a construct of circumstances?

Megalomania,
I found the law, for the state of South Carolina, concerning the weapons of mass destruction charge. I will list it in its entirety,
plus the penalty, at end of post. It is long but interesting. These statues/laws are from 2002 so there may have been some
changes (probably for the worse).
They do have to prove their case, beyond a reasonable doubt, but what about the financial cost (to the average person) lose
of job and reputation among family/peers, etc, etc.
They also put fear into the sheeple. There is a old saying attributed to the Chinese "Kill 1 scare 10,000". And in this case
arrest/imprison one and scare 10,000. I believe that is their goal.
And now for the law :) :
Article 7
Bombs, Destructive Devices, and Weapons of Mass Destruction
16-23-710 Definitions.
For purposes of this article:
(1) "Bacteriological weapon" and "biological weapon" mean devices which are designed in a manner as to permit the
intentional release into the population or environment of microbiological or other biological materials, toxins, or agents,
whatever their origin or method of production, in a manner not authorized by law, or any device, the development, production,
or stockpiling of which is prohibited pursuant to the "Convention of the Prohibition of the Development, Production and
Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and their Destruction", 26 U.S.T. 583, TIAS 8063.
(2) "Bomb" includes a destructive device capable of being detonated, triggered, or set off to release any substance or material
that is destructive, irritating, odoriferous, or otherwise harmful to one or more organisms including, but not limited to, human
beings, livestock, animals, crops or vegetation, or to earth, air, water, or any other material or substance necessary or required
to sustain human or any other individual form of life, or to real or personal property.
(3) "Bomb technician", "explosive ordnance technician", or "EOD technician" means either:
(a) a law enforcement officer, fire official, emergency management official, or an employee of the State, its political
subdivisions, or an authority of the State or a political subdivision, whose job title includes the designation of bomb technician,
explosive ordnance disposal technician, or EOD technician and whose assigned duties include the rendering-safe of improvised
explosive devices, destructive devices, old or abandoned explosives, war relics, or souvenirs while acting in the performance of
his official duties; or
(b) an official or employee of the United States including, but not limited to, a member of the Armed Forces of the United
States, who is qualified as an explosive ordnance disposal technician under the federal, state, or local laws or regulations while
acting in the performance of his duty.
(4) "Building" means any structure, vehicle, watercraft, or aircraft:
(a) where any person lodges or lives; or
(b) where people assemble for purposes of business, government, education, religion, entertainment, public transportation, or
public use or where goods are stored. Where a building consists of two or more units separately occupied or secured, each unit
is considered both a separate building in itself and a part of the main building.
(5) "Device" means an object, contrivance, instrument, technique, or any thing that is designed, manufactured, assembled, or
capable of serving any purpose in a bomb, destructive device, explosive, incendiary, or weapon of mass destruction.
(6) "Detonate" means to explode or cause to explode.
(7) "Destructive device" means:
(a) a bomb, incendiary device, or any thing that can detonate, explode, be released, or burn by mechanical, chemical, or
nuclear means, or that contains an explosive, incendiary, poisonous gas, or toxic substance (chemical, biological, or nuclear
materials) including, but not limited to, an incendiary or over-pressure device, or any other device capable of causing damage,
injury, or death;
(b) a bacteriological weapon or biological weapon; or
(c) a combination of any parts, components, chemical compounds, or other substances, either designed or intended for use in
converting any device into a destructive device which has been or can be assembled to cause damage, injury, or death.
(8) "Detonator" means a device containing a detonating charge used to initiate detonation in an explosive or any device
capable of triggering or setting off an explosion or explosive charge including, but not limited to, impact or an impact device, a
timing mechanism, electricity, a primer, primer or detonating cord, a detonating cap or device of any kind, detonating waves,
electric blasting caps, blasting caps for use with safety fuses, shock tube initiator, and detonating cord delay connectors, or any
other device capable of detonating or exploding a bomb, weapon of mass destruction, or destructive device.
(9) "Distribute" means the actual or constructive delivery or the attempted transfer from one person to another.
(10) "Explosive" means a chemical compound or other substance or a mechanical system intended for the purpose of
producing an explosion capable of causing injury, death, or damage to property or an explosive containing oxidizing and
combustible units or other ingredients in such proportions or quantities that ignition, fire, friction, concussion, percussion, or
detonation may produce an explosion capable of causing injury, death, or damage to property. Explosives include, but are not
limited to, the list of explosive materials published and periodically updated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
(11) "Hoax device" or "replica" means a device or object which has the appearance of a destructive device.
(12) "Incendiary" means any material that:
(a) causes, or is capable of causing, fire when it is lit or ignited; and
(b) is used to ignite a flammable liquid or compound in an unlawful manner.
(13) "Incendiary device" means a destructive device, however possessed or delivered, and by whatever name called,
containing or holding a flammable liquid or compound, which is capable of being ignited by any means possible. Incendiary
device includes, but is not limited to, any form of explosive, explosive bomb, grenade, missile, or similar device, whether
capable of being carried or thrown by a person acting alone or with one or more persons, but does not include a device
manufactured or produced for the primary purpose of illumination or for marking detours, obstructions, defective paving, or
other hazards on streets, roads, highways, or bridges, when used in a lawful manner.
(14) "Over-pressure device" means a container filled with an explosive gas or expanding gas or liquid which is designed or
constructed so as to cause the container to break, fracture, or rupture in a manner capable of causing death, injury, or
property damage, and includes, but is not limited to, a chemical reaction bomb, an acid bomb, a caustic bomb, or a dry ice
bomb.
(15) "Parts" mean a combination of parts, components, chemical compounds, or other substances, designed or intended for
use in converting any device into a destructive device.
(16) "Poisonous gases" mean a toxic chemical or its precursors that through its chemical action or properties on life processes,
causes death or injury to human beings or other living organisms. However, the term does not include:
(a) riot control agents, smoke and obscuration materials, or medical products which are manufactured, possessed,
transported, or used in accordance with the laws of this State or the United States;
(b) tear gas devices designed to be carried on or about the person which contain not more than fifty cubic centimeters of the
chemical; or
(c) pesticides, as used in agriculture and household products.
(17) "Property" means real or personal property of any kind including money, choses in action, and other similar interest in
property.
(18) "Terrorism" includes activities that:
(a) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of this State;
(b) appear to be intended to:
(i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(c) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of this State.
(19) "Weapon of mass destruction" means :
(a) any destructive device as defined in item (7);
(b) any weapon that is designed or intended to cause death or serious bodily injury through the release, dissemination, or
impact of toxic or poisonous chemicals, or their precursors;
(c) any weapon involving a disease organism; or
(d) any weapon that is designed to release radiation or radioactivity at a level dangerous to human life.
(Chgd. by L.2002, Act 339, 13, eff. 7/2/2002.)
16-23-715 Penalties for possession.

A person who, without lawful authority, possesses, uses, threatens, or attempts or conspires to possess or use a weapon of
mass destruction in furtherance of an act of terrorism is guilty of a felony and, upon conviction:
(1) in cases resulting in the death of another person, must be punished by death or by imprisonment for life; or
(2) in cases which do not result in the death of another person, must be punished by imprisonment for not less than twenty-
five years nor more than life.

HA! Under that definition a dry-ice bomb is considered a weapon of mass destruction. Basically the fedgov is using the current
fear of terrorism to pass laws that make virtually any kind of criminal activity fit into a more ominous legal bracket. Setting off
a pack of firecrackers to scare the neighbors dog now becomes deployment of a weapon of mass destruction affecting national
livestock. The jury now thinks little Timmy tried to eliminate the beef industry.
I wonder if the jury actually buys these laws? Who in their right mind could equate a few pounds of fertilizer as being a weapon
of mass destruction? Are we supposed to think having a pipe bomb carries the exact same penalties as an atomic bomb? The
fedgov is trying to brainwash the sheeple into believing every firecracker is a bomb, every vial of chemical is a chemical
weapon, every person who disagrees with the government is a terrorist...
Soon every crime will be treason, every disagreement will be treason, every dissent will be treason. The fedgov will circumvent
our rights and freedoms more and more until we are all either the condemned or the hangman.

All the prosecutor has to do is throw the words 'domestic terrorist', 'school massacre' and 'terrorism' around and the the jury will
most likely buy it. If they have some sort of solid evidence on the other charges it wont take much to win the jury over
completely.
Don't forget that the chances of having someone intelligent sitting on the jury will be very low, from what I can gather most of
the general population in the USA (and here) are easily won over with big scary words and a smile. Thats been pretty much
proven since most of your population seems to be behind either McCain, Hillary or that nigger Obama.
Dave_H April 25th, 2008, 05:08 AM

It's odd that the federal laws are more "relaxed". They don't consider it a WMD unless it has 4 ounces of explosives!
I'll quote this since it's from the FBI website and some of the members may not want to click the link:
What is a Weapon of Mass Destruction?
Any explosive or incendiary device, as defined in Title 18 USC, Section 921: bomb, grenade, rocket, missile, mine, or other
device with a charge of more than four ounces;
Any weapon designed or intended to cause death or serious bodily injury through the release, dissemination, or impact of toxic
or poisonous chemicals or their precursors;
Any weapon involving a disease organism; or
Any weapon designed to release radiation or radioactivity at a level dangerous to human life.
From FBI webpage here: http://www.fbi.gov/hq/nsb/wmd/wmd_definition.htm
Interesting that the last example describes more of a radiological weapon than a nuke. You would think they would have
added something better describing a nuclear weapon.
Dave

I have ranted about Ebay for a long time now and I hope that some of you will become more circumspect in your interaction
with that damned company. God only knows how this investigation got legs but I'm willing to bet what could have been
addressed with a direct discussion became a true "Federal Case" - due to forces that are better described as vile.

Ammonium nitrate is a fertilizer that was a component in the deadly 1995 Oklahoma City bombing.
Lord help us. They keep ranting shit like this in the media and every chemical will be illegal. ACE hardware will go out of
business when all they can sell is crazy glue, and I bet the gov't could even find a reason to ban that.
The kid was dumb though. He deserves time for planning an attack on a school. Killing innocent people is wrong, whether they
are sheeple or not. Whether he would actually go through with it is another matter.
As for his parents, they can go straight to hell and burn. Anyone who does that to their kid should be stoned to death in
public. This shows they were more worried about themselves than their child who HAD a bright future until they fucked it up.
How about taking the stuff away, punishing him, and leaving it at that?
I am surprised at the outlines of that Weapon of Mass Destruction law. My question is: When will the people decide that they
have had enough?

Crazy glue uses cyano acrylates, cyano sounds like cyanide, cyanide is a deadly poison used by terrorists, we must ban Crazy
glue to protect the children!
I assume this case started when the parents ratted the kid out. They could have sent him to a shrink, or had him committed
at a private institution where a real doctor could have given him time and attention to figure out if he is really a danger to
himself and others.
Nope, the parents got the state involved, and threw their child into an uncaring system filled with overworked social workers
who only know the boy as a number. Now the parents have to pay legal fees to fund the state, money which could have helped
their son, they have exposed their lives to the blinding spotlight of public opinion, scorn, derision, ridicule, and humiliation,
and they have forever ruined their son's chances of having a career or relationship.
The people will decide they have had enough when they, or someone they love, are locked up in a fedgov prison for crimes
they did not commit, or for crimes that should never have been made illegal. By then it will be too late.
Bugger April 25th, 2008, 05:54 PM

It looks, to me, as if any case that the Pigs could concoct in order to frame that high school student should fail, because the
laws refer to possession of a "device" of alleged mass destruction as being a necessary element of guilt (there is no evidence
of the existence of such a "device" in this case, only 5kg of NH4NO3 bought legally on EBay, which could also be used as a
garden or lawn fertilizer); and also refer to "with the intention of" or "intended for" as another necessary element of guilt,
which looks like being very hard, if not impossible, to prove.
iostream333 April 26th, 2008, 02:07 AM

It's tragic that impudent and careless people resort to things such as this. One might even conjecture that he just bought the
AN as a ploy for attention, as sick as that sounds. The odd part is that the article didn't mention if he actually possessed any
documents pertaining to the actual construction of a bomb (i.e. methods of initiation, synthesis of primaries and so forth),
which seems rather essential in such a plot.
It's also concerning that he was actually charged with "possession of bomb-making material". Does everyone who has some
ammonium nitrate lying around fall in this category?!

It's also concerning that he was actually charged with "possession of bomb-making material". Does everyone who has some
ammonium nitrate lying around fall in this category?!
YES. The laws we have been discussing are [the] prosecutor's padding so that the State can throw a punch when no one died,
etc....And it's very true that once he's in the system, he's fucked to the point of dry & silent tears.
There are now MANY laws in the USA, Canada, & the EU designed to nail someone deep into the legal coffin when no crime of
overt violence exists. This was the result of actually countless "Columbine" type school shootings, "Mad Bomber" scenarios,
what-have-you. Johnny actually can be prosecuted for very common household materials if he runs his mouth & tries to get
attention.
But in reality, we very rarely ever have the truth to most of these situations and the individual could be a serious fuck-tard who
really wanted to hurt someone or did.
I agree with Rbick deeply on this issue as I despise people who harm the innocent or make a community less safe through
their psychotic vomiting of hate.
Anyone who has lived with a neighbor who, through their mental illness or drug / alcohol intake made others live in dread or
fear, knows what relief it is to see the problem wheeled out of his abode on a gurney with a sheet covering it's full length or
lead away, squirming to get comfortable in his cuffs.
The problem with stories like these is that we don't know if the person was deserving of deep punishment or was over-reacted
to by those who could (have helped).

Ok so I'm stupid, but could I just make some comments on this law...
Article 7
Bombs, Destructive Devices, and Weapons of Mass Destruction
16-23-710 Definitions.
For purposes of this article:
(1) "Bacteriological weapon" and "biological weapon" mean devices which are designed in a manner as to permit the
intentional release into the population or environment of microbiological or other biological materials,
Would a burning bag of poop left on a porch fall under this definition? Bad news for Bart Simpson!
(2) "Bomb" includes a destructive device capable of being detonated, triggered, or set off to release any substance or material
that is destructive, irritating, odoriferous...
Odouriferous? Like a stink bomb!? Bad news for pranksters!
(7) "Destructive device" means:

(a) a bomb, incendiary device, or any thing that can detonate, explode, be released, or burn by mechanical
Burn by mechanical means? Like a lighter or match? Bad news for smokers!
(8) "Detonator" means a device containing a detonating charge used to initiate detonation in an explosive or any device
capable of triggering or setting off an explosion or explosive charge including, but not limited to, impact or an impact device...
We've all seen that video so a feather setting off Tri-Iodine, so bad news for birds I suppose.
(10) "Explosive" means a chemical compound or other substance or a mechanical system intended for the purpose of
producing an explosion capable of causing injury, death, or damage to property...
Dry ice bombs?
(12) "Incendiary" means any material that:

(a) causes, or is capable of causing, fire when it is lit or ignited; and
Again with the matches! Must have been drafted by non smokers!
(13) "Incendiary device" means a destructive device, however possessed or delivered, and by whatever name called,
containing or holding a flammable liquid or compound, which is capable of being ignited by any means possible.
And ligters again, rock concerts will never be the same!
(14) "Over-pressure device" means a container filled with an explosive gas or expanding gas or liquid which is designed or
constructed so as to cause the container to break, fracture, or rupture in a manner capable of causing death, injury, or
property damage, and includes, but is not limited to, a chemical reaction bomb, an acid bomb, a caustic bomb, or a dry ice
bomb.
They actually list dry ice bombs! Damn!
(16) "Poisonous gases" mean a toxic chemical or its precursors that through its chemical action or properties on life processes,
causes death or injury to human beings or other living organisms.
Including Pool Chlorene? Get used to green pools I guess.
However, the term does not include:

(a) riot control agents, smoke and obscuration materials, or medical products which are manufactured, possessed,
transported, or used in accordance with the laws of this State or the United States;
(b) tear gas devices designed to be carried on or about the person which contain not more than fifty cubic centimeters of the
chemical; or
(c) pesticides, as used in agriculture and household products.
Well of course they don't ban tear gas, go figure.
16-23-715 Penalties for possession.

A person who, without lawful authority, possesses, uses, threatens, or attempts or conspires to possess or use a weapon of
mass destruction in furtherance of an act of terrorism is guilty of a felony and, upon conviction:
(2) in cases which do not result in the death of another person, must be punished by imprisonment for not less than twenty-
five years nor more than life.
25 years!? Holy Crap, I'm staying out of South Carolina!
Well those are just my impessions, I could be wrong, but it seems if they want they can get you in dixie!
gaussincarnate April 26th, 2008, 10:01 PM

If they ever came down to prosecuting people for having pool chlorine, anyone with a pool would be immediately screwed,
since without chlorine the pool would turn into a brothel for mosquitos, also known as "deadly biological agent containment
and dispersal devices" (that are only effective against children and the elderly) and can cause symptoms as debilitating as
itchy skin and red bumps and occasionally malaria.
For that matter, it should also then be illegal to sneeze on, be stabbed by (blood transfers diseases), have sex with, breath
on, touch, or stare at (in case the government starts cracking down on THE EVIL EYE) anyone, since God forbid anyone should
ever get sick, because that is always indicative of a terrorist attack. Makes you glad that our entire country is operated by
people without even basic knowledge of science ([cough] Kansas [cough]), doesn't it?
Next thing you know, little Billy is going to be blowing out the candles on his fifth birthday cake when the BATF breaches his
house and tries him as an adult for arson.

I think we're not picking up on the concept. The laws are there for padding for prosecutable efforts...NOT FOR IMPOSITION, IN
& OF THEMSELVES. Let me digress for a bit.... There are always going to be items that are poisons. There are always going to
be pointed or heavy-blunt items, there are always going to be flammable items as well....
These laws are available to make prosecution flexible and more adaptable to a give scenario wherein - some fuck-tard trips
on his dick, gets caught, & the authorities want choices on how deep to drive the johnson.....
Unsunghero April 27th, 2008, 03:04 PM

Well, everyone is probably going to hate me for this post, but what the hell.
Insofar as intent was established this is a wholly just accusation..I mean what further proof do you want? The prevention of
crime involves a certain amount of theoretics. This kid had the time line and materials to commit such an act, however it
doesn't mention if he had technical knowledge in the plans. Now, being punished for weapons of mass destructions is CLEARLY
excessive, but multiple charges of conspiracy to commit murder..but..for one person..would not be.
Please don't say he wasn't capable, because I guarantee you that at his age I was more than capable of carrying out a plan
along those lines. I knew the general mechanics of AN/FO, and most of the more basic stuff discussed here. As a matter of
fact I'm pretty sure my 1st semi-successful ANFO det was when I was ~14-15, about a kg.
I challenge those who are angry about this verdict, where is the bright line as to where it is just to apprehend someone off
theoretical vs pragmatical evidence? This line MUST be drawn at some point, if it isn't, then lives aren't being preserved
efficiently.
Anyways, if I died because some little piss ant 17 year old wasn't charged after this, I'd be pretty pissed.
I personally believe that the parents should have sent him to a private institution..but in the hands of the state this is exactly
what should have happened.

The point I believe that some of us have missed concerning this law and laws like this is that they can be used against you/us
at the system's discretion. It does not matter if we like someone's life style or not. What we allow or condone to be done to
others we are allowing eventually to be done to ourselves or someone we care about, but who others may see as not
deserving of justice/fairness. All of us here (on the forum) walk a fine line in our hobbies/interests that "normal" people would
find disturbing. Most of us are a heartbeat away from sitting in this "kids" court room seat.
If this kid had assembled the components and was on his way to school to fulfill his mission then I would agree that extreme
intervention was necessary. I do not believe he had assembled anything. How many of us here "may have" assembled
something that if we where turned into/or stopped by the law would not have been in the same place this kid is now?
I do not believe that any of us have the monetary resources that the government possesses. They can drag things out as long
as they need or want to (for political or career motives), in order to wear you down financially, mentally and physically. And as I
stated before, even if you eventually beat them (charges dropped) or are found innocent you have lost and they have won.
I read a post on the forum somewhere concerning firearms. I am going to paraphrase it as I cannot remember who posted it
or exactly how it was written: Possessing a gun in itself should not be illegal, using it to commit a crime should be. I believe
this is a fair analogy to most if not all laws/things.
Here is a link to (some) abuses of laws that the government/law enforcement has used against the innocent that may explain
my point better than I can. It will be up to you whether you believe these types of incidents take place or not.
http://www.gainesnet.com/police2.htm

School bomb plotter wanted to kill Jesus
Now thats a catchy headline :)
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/29/teen.charged.ap/index.html
Sounds like the kid has lost his marbles, I'm sure prison will be great for his mental health :rolleyes:
Authorities also seized a computer that shows he searched Web sites for making bombs, a shotgun, carbon dioxide canisters,
"hundreds and hundreds" of matchsticks, and more cassette tapes that they have not yet heard, Townsend said
He wanted to make matchsticks and CO2 canisters eh :o
Quality piece of writing there :cool:
Gerbil May 1st, 2008, 08:58 PM

If he was planning on detonating the AN with match head powder in a CO2 canister, I think we can all sleep easy tonight. The
kid is obviously a nutcase, but hardly capable of creating a "weapon of mass destruction" :rolleyes: .
He needs to be put in a secure mental hospital, not become a prison bitch. Unfortunately, he's likely to be used as an excuse
for tighter restrictions on chemicals and information. After all, killing Jesus suggests he was against Christians...the ragheads
are against Christians, therefore he is actually a Muslim terrorist. Political propaganda can usually overrule logic in the average
person.
486 May 19th, 2008, 12:42 AM

The thing is that people will always be able to take a little bit more. On a gun forum there were people talking about how the
people who say "You'll take my guns from my cold dead hands!" are usually the ones who end up bowing to pressure from the
government and end up telling the cops about all their friends with hidden guns.
People usually will not stand up for themselves if their freedom is eroded slowly,The last ~100 years in the USA has shown
that. They only banned one thing at a time, like going from unrestricted automatic weapons, to needing prior approval for
ownership, to no longer being able to import/make them, and soon to not being able to own them, then to not being able to
own "military style" rifles/pistols, then any semi-auto, then none at all. So long as they are spaced evenly then sheeple will
tend to not notice where it's going.
Insert any example, I just used firearms because they are more familiar to me.
By the way, can I use this as my signatu re?

Building a bomb is a boys-will-be-boys behavior, blowing up a school is the act of a creepy loner with a grudge against the
world.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Potassium Nitrate
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camharris133 April 26th, 2008, 06:00 AM

I j u s t a q u i r e d 1 p o u n d o f p u r e p o t a s s i u m nitrate and have no idea what to do with it.:confused:
I a m t h i n k i n g o f m a k ing a hell of lot o f yellow powder but I think there m ight be better uses.
Any suggestions?
Hinckleyforpresident April 26th, 2008, 08:08 AM

Here are my suggestions:
-UTFSE.
-Don't start pointless/redunda nt threads.
- F e d e x t h e K N O 3 t o m e , b e c a u s e i t s e e m s like you're not ready for it.
-Don't start newbie th r e a d s .
-Hope these rule violations don't spell out the end of your accou nt here.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > R ailcar Im p l o s i o n V i d e o
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a3990918 April 28th, 2008, 01:43 PM

Just a short Vid. Clip of a railcar im plosion due to pressure differential...
http://m yspacetv.com /index.cfm ?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=32931631

I h a v e f a m ily who is an engineer, I've been told those cars weigh minim u m 20 tons empty. Its am a z i n g t o s e e s o m ething of
t h a t s i z e a n d m ass still crump ling like a soda can.
crazywhiteguy April 30th, 2008, 09:45 PM

I t l o o k s l i k e i t g o t s t e p p e d o n b y s o m ething massive and invisible. I can't im agin e what info about practical uses that staged
im plosion wo uld gather. Interesting no n e t h e l e s s .
-----------
Moderator co m m ent: Good thing it is in the Wa tercooler then, isn't it crazywhiteguy?:rolleyes: Watch your capitalisation and
punctuation.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Safety: Man Killed by 145 year
o l d c a n n o n b all
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mrtnira May 3rd, 2008, 03:44 PM

A man was killed by a 145 year old Am erican Civil W ar cannon ball. I'm including it as a safety message. He had restored lo ts
of Civil W ar ordnance, and was a noted expert and author.
http://www.wtop.com /?nid=600&sid=13 9 7 2 9 4
joffe May 3rd, 2008, 07:20 PM

Interesting. I rem e m b e r a s i m ilar case from my whereabouts several years ago where a gun powder-filled 18. Century cannon
b a l l s u d d e n l y d e t o n a t e d a f t e r i t h a d b e e n o p e n e d . A c c o r d i n g t o o n e o f t h e m en investigating the accident, the reason the gun
powder exploded was that the salpeter was produced from guano which contains small amounts ph osophor which wh en it cam e
into contact with air didn't react too well with the gun powder. So careful with those 18. and 19. Cen tury cannon balls.
akinrog May 4th, 2008, 02:56 PM

the salpeter was prod uced from guano which co ntains sm all am ounts phosophor which when it came into contact with air didn't
react too well with the gun powder. So careful with those 18. and 19. Century cannon balls.
Not to disagree but AFAIK iron sulfide (which may form during a very prolonged storage of powder in an iron shell) are
pyro phoric (sp?) too.
Iron sulfide form ing in oil refinery facilities causes explosions when the vessel is opened and thereby exposed to air.
Iron sulfide form ed in this fashion m a y a l s o b e r e a s o n f o r s p o n t a n e o u s e x p l o s i o n . R e g a r d s
joffe May 4th, 2008, 04:14 PM

Didn't think of that (but he - the expert - should have). But back then I was a junior NCO who wouldn't dare think about
questioning authority. But you r theory is just as good as his.

W ell at least this is a testeme nt to the produce rs of 19th century am m unition. Anyway do you think that deactivating this type
of shell would be safer using a "water drill", to cut through and introduce water to clean out the shell before air in introduced?
And rem e m b er if you think this is bad there are still aro und 100 tonnes of explosives buried under a small Belgian town left
over from W W I, im agine trying to "defuse" that.
a3990918 May 4th, 2008, 10:42 PM

think that de activating this type of she ll would be safer using a "water drill", to cut through and introduce water to clean out the
shell before air in introduced?
I read the story yesterday or the day before. Said the guy was using a grinder and showering sparks all over the shell. Also
c o m m ented that he may have thought the shell was devoid of its explosive charg e, due to a hole in the fuse... Another one of
t h o s e s i t u a t i o n s y o u s h o u l d n e v e r a s s u m e anything about...
T h i s c o u l d h a v e b e e n m uch worse, said his wife had been out there with him watching him work...A chunk of the she ll
perforated the front porch of a house a quarter m ile away...Not bad for a ground level explosion of a near 150yr old shell...

I read the story yesterday or the day before. Said the guy was using a grinder and showering sparks all over the shell. Also
c o m m ented that he may have thought the shell was devoid of its explosive charg e, due to a hole in the fuse... Another one of
t h o s e s i t u a t i o n s y o u s h o u l d n e v e r a s s u m e anything about...
T h e y s a y y o u s h o u l d a l w a y s a s s u m e a g u n i s l o a d e d u n til your positive it isn't, the same should go for anything else that can
kill you.
T h i s c o u l d h a v e b e e n m uch worse, said his wife had been out there with him watching him work...A chunk of the she ll
perforated the front porch of a house a quarter m ile away...Not bad for a ground level explosion of a near 150yr old shell...
M a d e i n t h e g o o d o l ' U .S. of A, eh?

I've got a couple 8lb cannon balls, but I don't believe they're pa cked with anythin g.
' T i s a s h a m e such a thing would happen.
ChippedHammer May 7th, 2008, 03:41 AM

A n o t h e r o n e o f t h o s e s i t u a t i o n s y o u s h o u l d n e v e r a s s u m e a n y t h i n g a b o u t...
To his defense, the thing was 150 years old. I honestly would have thought anything that had been buried for that am o u n t o f
tim e would have been rendered inert - especially black powder m unitions.

C o m mon sense tells you that something that is basically hygroscopic like BP would be exposed to moisture, etc but
considering that the container could well be sealed the guy should have approached it with a bit m ore care. especially since the
possibility of a com partm entalization of a sealed ball could have withstood the test of tim e .
W e don't have all the facts in this but if the guy did som ething like use any tool that is sp ark producing; he was asking for
disaster. Don't quote me on this but I believe that there is no shelf life for any m aterial that is hermetically sealed. That's why
t h e y h a d d e v e l o p e d t h o s e " t i m e c a p s u les" that are buried with inform ation of previous generations.
The other thing that perplexes me is that in collections of many objects, does not the condition of originality have a b e a r i n g o n
the price & "collect-ability" of the object? W hy would the fellow want to spoil it by cutting
& / or grinding on it? There is a great book ava ilable on Civil W ar shells and those who collect them and it has a sizable
warning within both the text & preface.

All in all a good saftey lesson, if your not SURE its safe, it isn't, so take the proper precautions.
megalomania May 12th, 2008, 04:55 PM

Perhaps he wanted to m ake sure the cannon ball was com pletely inert, so it need ed to be drilled o r cut open to rem o v e a n y
residual contents pen ding transport or museum /reenactment display. This sounds like a prudent safety practice in light of this
accident! Perhaps he was intellectually aware of what safety procedures needed to be followed to render the ball inert, but he
became complacent in his belief that this thing could not possibly be dangerous.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > This could come in h a n d y ?
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http://www.engadget.com /200 8 / 0 5 / 0 5 / x e r o x - s h o w s - o f f - e r a s a b l e - p a p e r - h o p e s - t o - m a k e - i t - a v a i l a b l e - n e x /
W hat do you think?
I'm thinking essentially useless, but at the sam e time it could be used to write down things m eant to be co nfidential and then
easily gotten rid of.. But, if it's anything like printers now, there's a way to recover what's written and that would be bad.

Just use thermal fax paper, its cheap, can be erased easily (put it in a toaster) and I don't think the writing can be recoverer.
Jacks Complete May 13th, 2008, 06:44 PM

I suspect that the fading paper will still have enough "unfaded" even weeks later to screw you. 24 hours to fade away to wha t?
90% gone? A flatbed scanner would probably get the pattern back from a few tenths of 1% of the dye still being there.
Besides, you notice it uses UV light to fade. In a stack of papers the outers would end up blank, but the inner pages would still
be fine, (kind of like when you [try to] destroy bulk pap er with fire) tipping off the people looking through your stuff at their
leisure. Then they take their camera phones and take pictures that don't fade...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Deadliest substances
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NitroKaBooM May 11th, 2008, 01:24 PM

Hi all. The VX is claim ed to be the m ost lethal substance yet discovered. I cannot understand this statem ent: I thought that
the m ost deadly substance was botulinum toxin. Apart from this, VX was discovered in 1952! Seriously you believe that in the
last 55 years nothing more toxic has b e e n d i s c o v e r e d ?
BlackFalcoN May 11th, 2008, 04:24 PM

The VX is claimed to be the m ost letal substance yet discovered.
Your source is wrong. A simple U TFSE of the Merck index or even wikipedia, comparing botulinium vs VX would have revealed
that.
Botulinum produced by Clostridium is the m ost toxic natural occuring sub stance. VX is rela tively m uch less lethal, but still the
m ost lethal nerve gas to date.
T o m y k n o w l e d g e , n o body has ever confirm ed a substance with a smaller LD50 than botulinium , but who knows, m a y b e o v e r
the years there are substances more lethal discovered that mainstream science just hasn't heard of yet...
Ygarl May 11th, 2008, 04:38 PM

Hi back at ya...
VX is certainly very toxic (at 10m g avg. LD50 for an adu lt or about .00001g/Kg dose).
Botulinum is still king a t a b o u t 0 . 0 0 0 0 0 1 m g / k g , a n d P o 2 1 0 i s a b o u t t h e s a m e a s V X - i f a g r e a t d e a l m o r e d a n g e r o u s t o

h a n d l e / m ake due to the radiation it gives off a nd its fairly short half-life.
However, VX is a great deal easier to apply/disperse or weaponise. The heat involved in m ost explosions - for instance - would
easily ruin botulinum .
Polo nium is pretty bloody dangerous if inhaled: 0.089 micrograms is enough to reach LD5 0!
If you were going to go for a terror weapon though for whatever reason a nd had plenty of patience, you would be hard-pressed
t o b e a t P o l o n i u m . Just bom bard bism uth with neutrons but you're looking are seriously hard graft and time and again with the
danger of air-bourne Po dust!
O f c o u r s e , i t a l s o s e l f - h e a t s s o a b o u t a g r a m of it (or som ething like enough to kill 11 m illion people if you could som ehow get
the LD50 into each person perfectly!) will reach 500C. That's going to liberate som e of it into the air, etc etc. You'd need a
pretty dam n good fume hood for that. Luckily, it gives off alpha particles to even rubber g loves would protect you from the
rads... assuming you didn't breathe any!
I think Po is fascinating (as well as Fr, Cs, and lots of other stup idly dangerous elements), but botulinum is m o r e d a n g e r o u s
" p e r g r a m " s o t o s p e a k . A n d b o t h o f t h e m are far m ore dangerous in their way th an VX. VX is just easily weaponised.
An toxic oil with a sim p l e t o a d m inister antidote is a dam n sight easier to handle than a short half-life, red-hot m etal with th e
obnoxious habit of leaving little particles around to kill you just as dead as your target! Especially since the only treatment
a g a i n s t P o l u n g p o i s o n i n g i s m o r p h i n e a n d g i v i n g y o u a few days quiet tim e to write a will!
NitroKaBooM May 11th, 2008, 07:24 PM

Indeed I'm not considering radioactive substan ces, too dangerous! W hich is the substance that take to death m ost rapidly if
taken orally? And if absorbed by skin? Have you ever heard of b atrachotoxin?
BlackFalcoN May 11th, 2008, 10:26 PM

Indeed I'm not considering radioactive substan c e s , t o o d a n g e r o u s !
You are not considering them to achieve what?
You inquire about VX and botulinum, but a m ere radioactive sub s t a n c e ( i n g e n e r a l ) i s t o o d a n g e r o u s ?
For som ebody with such a huge interest in toxins you certainly failed to show proper pre-research before com i n g t o a s k h e r e .
UTFSE & don't expect to be sp o o n f e d !
W hich is the substance that take to de ath most rapidly if taken orally? And if absorbed by skin?
Do they speak English in Verm ont ?
About 300 kilogram o f m o l t e n tungsten will result in death almost instantly when taken orally, should be about the sam e for
the transderm al application... :rolleyes:
Have you ever heard of batrachotoxin?
Yes
Be glad you posted this in the water cooler.
Judging your 4 previo us poste d m arvels of geniality, your usernam e & your lack of UTFSE; I would say you are a k3wl sir...
NitroKaBooM May 12th, 2008, 05:32 AM

I'm not a k3ewl. I'm inexperienced and I know this questions are very sim p l e a n d p e r h a p s b a d - p o sed. For this reason I've
posted them in the water cooler. Do you expect every m ember writes nobel-prize grade posts?
Banned for b eing a whiny bitch! You were warned, and n ow you demonstrate your stupidity by being incapable of stringing
together even a few sentences without them being riddled with e rrors.
For your information I do not expect every m ember to write on par with Nobel Prize winning research, but I do encourage it.
Begone kewl!
Enkidu May 12th, 2008, 04:45 PM

Nope, but we do expect all m embers to contribute or (at least, U TFSE) Mem bers who do not contribute rarely last very long.
The Water Cooler is not a place where newbs can post whatever questions their heart desires and get spoonfed. The Water
Cooler is subject to the sam e standards as the rest of The Forum. Consider yourself warned.
===
Oops, m ega banned him while I was posting. :P

Haha, that was funny.
Ygarl May 19th, 2008, 09:02 AM

Hm m m ... in hindsight, I wonder if I should have just him waffle on until he got kick/banned.
Still, it gave m e a chance to com pare LDs for a few am using items - even if only for a com plete nu mbskull with a stupid
question.
Most lethal substance indeed... I would say 1000 kg of a decent HE, with some DU is more than a fair terrorist weap o n a n d
fairly lethal withal - at least from less than several doze n m etres!
megalomania May 23rd, 2008, 03:56 AM

Alwa ys rem e m ber, the LD50 for water is 6 inches, rat/Kg :D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Insidious "Purple Liquid":
Deadly Cheerleaders Strike Again
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View Full Version : Insidious "Purple Liquid": Deadly Cheerleaders Strike Again
Lewis May 11th, 2008, 10:25 PM

I ran across this article recently:
http://tinyurl.com/59733d
I t d e s c r i b e s t h e d e s t r u c t i o n o f U K h o m e s b y a s u p p o s e d " g i r l g a n g " d u e t o s o m e sort of love interest. I was sure this was som e
s o r t o f j o k e , b u t t h e p h o t o s s e e m to indicate otherwise.
Authorities initially thought the blast was from a gas lea k, but th i s s e e m s unlikely, as the rem a i n s o f t h e h o u s e a r e n o t
charred, and I would assum e a gas explosion would start secondary fires, as well.
I always find it funny to read through articles like these. This one is particularly hilarious. The question rem ains: W hat, if
anything, was this purple crap that was poured through the m ailbox? It would seem t o m e t h a t a n y l i q u i d e x p l o s i v e u s e d w o u l d
b e t e n t i m e s m ore effective sitting in buckets on the front doorstep.

W ell, the cops speculated this came from the Internet, which they always say, so where is this recipe hm m ? I am not fam iliar
with UK consum er chemical practices, but this sounds like the pu rple stuff m ay ha v e b e e n f r o m a c h e m ical with a dye. I recall
only form aldehyde for RV chem ical toilets containing a purple dye. It could be a dyed acid as part of a two com p o n e n t h i g h
e x p l o s i v e m ixture.
It could also be grape juice dumped to ruin the living ro o m r u g . I h a v e r e a d e n o u g h o f t h e s e s t o r i e s a b o u t b o m b s a n d

b o m bers to know the facts are rarely com pletely correct. I must read 4-5 different articles about the same story to average the
facts, this is m y technique of Ram an n ewstroscopy :D
Lewis May 12th, 2008, 12:50 AM

Fox News has little more to enlighten us with:
http://www.foxnews.com /story/0,2933,354993,00.htm l
L o o k s l i k e t h ey just g ot info from the earlier article.
The purple color could be a telltale sign of hom ebrew synthesis. I know some posters have reported purple dyed drain cleaners
a s a source of sulfuric acid. The whole story m akes little sense. A liquid explosive s e n s i t i v e e n o u g h t o b e i n i t i a t e d i n a p u d d l e
on a floor wo u l d m o s t l i k e l y b e a p e r o x i d e . T h i s w o u l d e x p l a i n t h e s m ell as well.
JohnG May 12th, 2008, 01:02 AM

A few years ago in m y town something sim ilar to this happened.
A h o u s e ' s p r o p a n e t a n k w a s h it by falling ice or snow, it fell from it's location and created a small gash, enough for the tank to
vent. Nobody was home at the tim e , a n d I ' m unsure how it sparked off, but the result was very sim ilar. The 3 bedro om, 2 story
house was reduced to basically splinters, no fire involved though .
Dave_H May 12th, 2008, 03:45 AM

A liq u i d e x p l o s i v e s e n s i t i v e e n o u g h t o b e i n i t i a t e d i n a p u d d l e o n a f l o o r w o u l d m o s t l i k e l y b e a p e r o x i d e . T h i s w o u l d e x p l a i n
t h e s m ell as well.
Maybe MEKP?
More inform ation here:

http://tinyurl.com/6ncztg
O n e o f t h e p o s s i b l e s u b s t a n c e s b e i n g i n v e s t i g a t e d b y p o l i c e i s m ethyl ethyl ketone, which can com e in a purple liquid form with
an ether-like o d o u r a n d i s u s e d o n p i p ing by plumbers. It is a highly-flamm able irritant, which can be explosive if concentrated
into a vapour.
Barnacles May 12th, 2008, 04:31 AM

Maybe they tried to m ake Astrolite with aniline dye that was purple. Assum e the kewlest thing possible. Just a guess...
EDIT
Investigators inititally thought the explosion was caused by a ga s leak, but now suspect the purple liquid believed to have
b e e n m a d e f r o m a re cipe found on the Internet could have vaporized and caused the e xplosion, it was reported.
After reading the fox article th e astrolite seem s unlikely. From what I gather I am g u e s s i n g the police tested the pu rple liquid
for explosive s but it didn't come up as one. Mu s t h a v e c a m e u p a s a g a s o r s o m ething , the way the elude about the
V A P O R IZING of the liquid which POSSIBLY caused an ex plosion. So I am guessing they know what it is, but it isn't generally an
explosive, and they don't want to say to give people idea's
hereno May 12th, 2008, 05:00 AM

Now surely it was just petrol, which is can be purple. I mean teenage girls blowing up a house :/ the fum e s f i l l e d t h e h o u s e a n d
boom .
http://youtube.com /watch?v=w09IY73oVjE
As a side note, but very unlikely. Som e nitrom ethane when sensitized with am ines turns p urple due to an indicator.
-=HeX=- May 12th, 2008, 07:55 AM

W ell, my Nitrom e t h a n e w h e n a d a s h o f a m m o n ium hydroxide turns purple or pink. The guy who sold it to m e told m e that it
was dangerous if it goes purple. This is because it forms a PLX. Maybe they m a d e t h a t ? O r maybe some MEKP with a purple
colouring from the glue they got it from.

A police source said: "There are several possibilities, one of which is that this was a home-m ade explosive which was cooked
up using a recipe on the internet. The methods for m a k i n g t h e s e l i q u i d b o m b s a r e a l l o v e r the internet.
"We have seen with recent terrorism trials that there are plenty of things on the web, but it would obviously be an extraordinary
and disturbing development if a girl gang has decided to settle a dispute in such dram atic and tragic way."
O n e o f t h e p o s s i b l e s u b s t a n c e s b e i n g i n v e s t i g a t e d b y p o l i c e i s m ethyl ethyl ketone, which can com e in a purple liquid form with
an ether-like o d o u r a n d i s u s e d o n p i p ing by plumbers. It is a highly-flamm able irritant, which can be explosive if concentrated
into a vapour.
W ell this is n ews to m e. I actually don't know that m uch a b o u t e x p l o s i v e s , m e being new to this site and all, so I am rather
curious to kn ow about these e xplosives sites that are ALL O VER the Internet. W hy liquid explosives are very com m on, look how
m a n y I h a v e i n t h e C h e m Lab , possibly 3 or 4 out of 150...
The police are quick to blame the Internet as the source of all m i s c h i e f , a n d b y e x t e n s i o n I t a k e t h a t p e r s o n a l l y . P e r h a p s b y
s a y i n g " t h e s e l i q u i d b o m b s a r e a l l o v e r t h e i n t e r n e t " t h e c o p s m e a n t o s a y k n o w l e d g e o f g a s o l i n e + m atch = boom .
By the time the forensics guys figure o ut what the purple liquid is, the m edia will have gotten bored and forgotten all about the
story, so we m ay never get to hear what the m agic purp le goo really is.
Thorald May 12th, 2008, 06:44 PM

I know the area, and I don't think people there, especially the p eople in that age group in that area could com e up with som e
form of high explosive that co u l d c a u s e t h e d a m age it did...
Could it be that it was som e k ind of prank gone tragically wrong?
Because to m e t h a t s e e m s m ost likely...
The Authorities now think that it was a Gas Explosion, but that the explosion may have be en caused by this 'Purple Liquid'
e x p l o d i n g , a n d t h a t t h e G a s e x p l o s i o n c a m e f r o m various pipes from a near by factory.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/ne ws/uknews/1947212/Gas-leak-may-have-worsened-Harrow-blast.htm l

I'm am a z e d n o - o n e h a s m entioned methylated spirits yet! Purple to stop tramps drinking it (or som ething) and it burns quite
easily, but also causes vapour explosions due to it's low pressure. I can see a bottle of it going through a letterbox and then
b o o m when the vapour caught. The sudden loss of pressure blows it out, and that's that.
If it was an explosive, surely it would have exploded?

Yes it could be Methylated Spirits. In m y workshop last night I found a bottle of the stuff, Purple in colour, m arked with 'Highly
Flam m able' on the back of the bottle. The Purple Dye a p p a r e n t l y m a k e s y o u v o m it the liq u i d u p u p o n d i g e s t i o n , a s t o s t o p
p e o p l e f r o m poisoning themselves with it...
Surely a fire could perhaps ignite som e t h i n g t h a t c a u s e d t h e e x p l o s i o n ?
Emil May 14th, 2008, 06:45 PM

I'm at the point now where reading news reports makes m e cringe to the point of laughing. The detail is so hit and m i s s a n d
over exagerated to the point of disgust.
The way they write "Gang of girls 'blew up house with ho m e - m a d e b o m b" m akes you instantly know that it is just so m e r a m p e d
up bullshit, written by an idiot to try an d capture attention. All that headline really m eans is, like previously mention e d , a p r a n k
or sm all fire which turned into a big m e s s . T h e r e w a s n o b o m b. Just a fla m m able material which probably started a house fire,
then caught fire to the gas m ain. Most probably meth spirits.
Anyone who thinks that a group of you ng girls fighting over a gu y is going to construct a real bom b, is just as stupid as the guy
who wrote the article. :rolleyes:
"Police origin ally thou ght the devastating explo sion had been ca u s e d b y a g a s l e a k , a t h e ory which has now been played
down."
DCI Sutton said: "We still haven't ruled out a g a s e x p l o sion but experts say it is unlikely to be the cause"
Of course, 500m l of liquid explosive, dispersed all over the landing floor is bound to take out 3 ho uses. :rolleyes: I'd love to
know how they detonated it. O f course they mu st of never of used a blasting cap and just chose to "detona te" it with a m atch
:D
Silent Freedom May 14th, 2008, 08:16 PM

I would probably think it is som e g a s o l i n e b e c a use of there obviously over stated description. However there is a chance MEKP
could turn purple, say adding the purple drain cleaner (and I have heard of a purple drain cleaner but neve r seen it) as a
catalyst for the hydrogen pero x i d e a n d m ethyl ethyl ketone to m ake MEKP, just a thought.
Rbick May 15th, 2008, 10:24 AM

I saw someone had mentioned PLX. From experience, I can tell you that detonating PLX without a booster is difficult, and
d a m n near im possible without som e prim ary (unless you pour it in an en gine cylinder and start it :D). It also requires a good
container to detonate properly unless you use a bad ass booster charge. Usually when detonating only 50m L, I would use 1g
of ETN w/ 1g HMTD to ensure full detonation. Considering they p oured it on the floor and it then detonated pretty m uch rules
out PLX, unless they poured it in, and dropped a powerful booster charge following the pouring of the liquid . I doubt it...
Having blown up a few buildings in my time, an d looking at the picture, I would say looks like a ga s e x p l o s i o n . I o n c e
detonated 12 lbs of C4 on the outside wall of a h o u s e a n d i t d i d n ' t d o a s m uch dam age as seen in this picture. Destruction of
that magnitu de would require A LOT of explosive to be poured through the mail slot. I don't find it believable that a "girl gang"
hung out in their basem ent and mass produced MEKP, PLX, NG, Methylnitrate, whatever, and the necessary booster and
blasting cap with the intentions of blowing up a house. I can see it now, a bunch of high school girls walking around in lab co ats
with beakers and flasks, preparing for their mission. The conversation probably went som ething lik e (add English accent) "Lets
go throw this nasty smelling shit in tha t bitches m ail box! That'll show her!"
T h e l i q u i d m u s t h a v e b e e n f l a m m able however, possibly reachin g the necessary fuel/air m i x t u r e t o d e t o n a t e a n d p e r h a p s

d e t o n a t i n g t h e g a s l i n e i n a s e c o n d a r y e x p l o s i o n ? W hether this was intentional or not is the question, but I doubt som e girls
would intentionally destroy half a city block because of a boy. He m ust have been really "hott" :p
Regardless of whethe r it was intended to kill, it did end som e o n e s l i f e n e e d l e s s l y a n d t h e y a r e r e s p o n s i b l e . I r e a l l y d o f e e l b a d

for the family of the m an kille d i n t h e b l a s t , a s i t w a s a p o i n t l e s s a n d r a n d o m d e a t h . B e i n g k i l l e d i n c o m b a t b y a n e x p l o d i n g
e n e m y shell would be honorable, but being killed by a bunch of dumb ass high school girls is just sad. W ith that said, I hope
they get caught and if it were up to m e, I would execute them in an attem p t t o c l e a n s e t h e g e n e p o o l .
Som e quotes if found am using:

Police originally thought the devastating explosion had been caused by a gas leak, a theory which has now been played down.
Of course its been played down! Everyone is looking for a chance to say "EXPLOSIVES!" or "TERR ORISTS!" when in fact the case
is m uch more sim ple.
This is a quo te from a guy in the com ments section of the news website:
It would seem we should take great ca re when it comes to what sort of young ladies we sh ould perm it our sons to consort with.
- M Young, London
Dum b ass...

This "Girl Gang" thing is tabloid pap. Men running is fea r im p o s e d b y A m a z o n m u scular young girls is very short skirts, inflicting
an im posing humiliation on th em: legs apart - while the "m en" stare at their panties, cringing in em asculated trepidation....
A "Girl Gang"....Jesus.....what has become of The Britain of Old? Everything is now focused on "empowerme nt of the W o m a n "
to such a degree that even the fear mongering can't get along without th e steely muscled Burka-clad terrorist. O r th e super-
cheerleader gone Bad.
Have you ever noticed that no w Testosterone is used as a expletive or put-down? "It sm ells like to o m uch testosterone in
here". The term "m a c h o " u s e d t o m e a n m asculine....no w i t m e a n s s o m e t h i n g d e m e a n i n g . O n television the "wife" is always
the intelligent, reasonable one, while the "husband" is a dumb-shit & slob with a laugh-track in tow. We live in an age with a
d e e p s e a t e d r e s e n t m ent toward men. W e see it everywhere fem ale centered m arketing takes hold....
1 2 0 l b f e m a l e f i r e f i g h t e r s d r a g g i n g a h e l p l e s s m ale from a burning building......A female soldier, clad only in a flack jacket and
p a n t i e s h o l d i n g a n M 6 0 w i t h o n e a r m a n d a n i n jured com rade under the other.... "GI-Jane "!
It's obvious that it wa s petrol and the idiots who burned something were written to be bigg er than life. The Joke is that the
public buys it up!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/74 0 3 3 6 4 . s t m
Acco rding to this the m ysterious 'Purple Liquid' was not responsible for th e blast and it was m ost likely that Gas was
resp onsible. Also the liquid was poured in ten hours before the blast!
Barnacles May 16th, 2008, 12:27 AM

Having blown up a few buildings in my time, an d looking at the picture, I would say looks like a ga s e x p l o s i o n . I o n c e
detonated 12 lbs of C4 on the outside wall of a h o u s e a n d i t d i d n ' t d o a s m uch dam age as seen in this picture. Destruction of
that magnitu de would require A LOT of explosive to be poured through the mail slot.
T h e t h i n g a b o u t t h a t i s t h e c h a r g e w a s o n t h e O U T S I D E o f t h e h o u s e , t h e n e g a t e s a m ajor am o u n t o f d a m age that would occur

given it was contained indoors. This would force a blow out. If the charge is contained indoors the expandin g g a s s e s h a v e
nowhere to g o so would force the walls away. If its outside it will take the path of least resistant and blast a way from t h e h o u s e
taking away m o s t o f t h e d a m a g e . I t s t h e s a m e as putting a charge on concrete, a huge car bom b makes a baby crater, but if
y o u p u t 2 5 p o u n d s 2 f e e t u n d e r g r o u n d t h e h o l e w i l l b e m a s s i v e . . . O n e r e a s o n I a m thinking that it was m ost likely a gas blast
or at least th e HE was a very small com ponent is because of all the intact windows around it. I think if HE was primarily
resp onsible you wouldn't see all those windows in good shape.
I h a v e a v i d e o o f a 6 p o u n d p entolite charge leveling a one floor house. here is the link the house was built to code I
b e l i e v e . A l s o s o m e other related videos
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=zNP2 x C f O djI 6lb pentolite in house
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=kYjzIMLQYVs&feature=user - 1 5 p o u n d s C 4 i n a b u s
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=87rjr0xg7NI&feature=user 300 lb anfo car bom b
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=_fzQv_LjoMg&feature=related 15 pound bom b e r b e s i d e b u s
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=lbE-82UI8lM&feature=user TNT blast beside a van its really cool that you can see the ball
bearings tear through it clearly in sem i "orderly" state. Mock suicide bomber beside it to be clear.
Edit I don't see why e veryone is so confident th ese girls couldn't have m a d e a H i g h E x p l o s i v e . U s o f a l l p e o p l e s h o u ld know
how easy it is to do this from O TC stuff, and the recipes are floa ting around on the internet. You would have to be pretty ine pt
these days to NOT be able to make explosives.
Lewis May 16th, 2008, 02:18 AM

I'm am a z e d a t t h e f r a m e r a t e o f t h o s e v i d e o s . T h e c a m e r a m u s t h a v e b e e n r e c o r d i n g i m a g e s f a s t e r t h a n a m inigun fires.

Awesom e vid eos! Those are fun. I agree with you on the blast dam a g e , i t l o o k s p r i m a r i l y l i k e a g a s e x p l o s i o n .
T h e t h i n g a b o u t t h a t i s t h e c h a r g e w a s o n t h e O U T S I D E o f t h e h o u s e , t h e n e g a t e s a m ajor am o u n t o f d a m age that would occur
given it was contained indoors. This would force a blow out. If the charge is contained indoors the expandin g g a s s e s h a v e
nowhere to g o so would force the walls away. If its outside it will take the path of least resistant and blast a way from t h e h o u s e
taking away m o s t o f t h e d a m a g e .
I'm well aware of how explosive waves propagate. I was just m aking the point that 12lbs would not have flattened that large of
an area even if it was inside with dam age like what is seen in the picture. I've detonated a few cha rges inside buildings too :).
If it was placed in the b a s e m ent or in the m iddle of the lowest floor, thats a different story. But the fact the charge would have
b e e n n e x t t o the fron t door (having been poured through the mail slot) would m ean that the explosion would have thrown the
door and the front wa ll outward towards the street. From the pic you can see this happened everywhere, not just on the front of
the structure. So unle ss they used A LOT of explosive, its doubtful that a g a s e x p l o s i o n d i d n ' t t a k e p l a c e a s a r e s u l t o f a
s m a ller explosive charge, a fuel/air ex plosion, or a fire.
You're right about the fact tha t it very well could have been HE. Although the reason for destroying a house over a boy escapes
m e. I guess these are trouble d tim es we live in :( The fact of the matter is they may have intentio nally destroyed a building
a n d k i l l e d a n i n n o c e n t man while doing so. This equals death penalty in m y b o o k !

It is so clearly a vapo ur explosion that further debate is silly.
As regards the girl ga ng thing, well, yes, it is th e latest social problem over here. Girls openly boast about how they nearly
k i l l e d s o m e o ne by battering h im with a stiletto heel, or how four of them set someone on fire for saying m e a n t h i n g s a b o u t
them in class.
It's m ostly because the cops harass th e m ale gangs so much now, that they forgot to kee p the girls in check too. And, lets
face it, the phrase "Hell hath no fury like a wom an scorned" cam e from s o m e w h e r e l o n g b efore it was disco vered that girls tend
to go for massive overkill on any victim , while guys tend to know the lim its better.

Could this be due to the fact that women tend to let their em o t i o n s g e t t h e b e s t o f t h e m ? I ' m certainly not saying m e n a r e t h e
m ost stable and ratio n a l b e i n g s o n t h e p l a n e t , b u t u n d e r s t r e s s f u l s i t u a t i o n s , m e n s e e m t o b e a b l e t o h a n d l e t h e m s e l v e s
better and m a k e b e t t e r d e s c i s i o n s . A g o o d e x a mple is the Million Mom (bitch) March, whos mem bers act irrationally when a few
p e o p l e d i e b e c a u s e a guy went postal on a college campus. As a result, instead of attacking the real problem, they freak ou t
and decide to point the finger at guns, an inanimate tool.
W ho would you rather be in a firefight with? My point exactly :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Alternative/renewable fuels
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View Full Version : Alternative/renewable fuels
underworld May 15th, 2008, 08:56 PM

Is anyone working on alternative/renewable fuels, or using them ? I've been involved with biodiesel for a long time and am
working on som e other fuels for gas burners. I think with the knowledge base here we can really come up with som ething.
megalomania May 17th, 2008, 07:28 AM

No no no, do n't delete this... He has special pe rm ission from m e to address this topic so I can gauge interest in this.

@ underworld:
P l e a s e e l a b o rate on biodiesel fuel and especially on any inter-relationship with energetic materials and / or the m echanics of
initiation, deflagration or for that m atter any auto-contributory element in your experience that ma y be reflected in som e o f
the discussio n herein...
W e all know that a fuel-air explosion (FAE) is what drive s internal com bustion engines... from a generalist perspective anyway.
W hat is the elem ent that (in your opinion) the stumbling block to alternatives? Hydrogen seem s workable. Is it the basic
m echanics of the "switch" to m a k e p r e s e n t - d a y v e h i c l e s u s e a n a l t e r n a t i v e ? W hat are you searching for?

Any tips on production of energetic ma terials, even diesel, is great. If I can m a k e b i o d i e s e l , I c a n s a v e a f o r t u n e , t o o , a s t h e r e
is no duty on the first 3000 miles per year in the UK (or something like that) so slashing m y bills.
Sola r and wind are two great ways to power stuff. They complement each other well, as dark and wet and windy gets great wind
power, while still and dry and sunny ge ts great solar input.
It works so well that in the UK vast amounts of the tax payers m oney gets spent on putting up solar/wind powered lights, wh e n
there is a power line under 20 feet away!
If th e SHTF, having a m eans of power would make you rich beyond m ost other men. You could run CC TV while they had to
send scouts, you could run a network of sensors whilst they forage in the dark, you could recharge your flashlights and NVGs
while they stum ble over rocks in the dark. And you could live underground without turning into som e albino mutant race! :-)
shooter3 May 17th, 2008, 11:09 PM

G o o g l e " w o o d g a s " . I ' v e b e e n e x p e r i m enting a little bit with this. You can run m otors (gen erators cars, etc), but I'm going to
try to heat m y house with it next winter. I just filled m y tank with heating oil, cost $1080.0 0!! This is only for areas where you
can get free wood chips.
Fear not though. At $120.00 a barrel, there will be LO TS m ore oil in a year or 2. There is a com pany in Nebraska?, i think, that
is m aking crude out of coal, 50,000 barrels a day! They said the y could make a proffit at $30.00/barrel! Th ere is a reluctance
to increase p roduction, because they k now there is so m uch oil out there that the price could very easily fall to $20.00/barrel.

Any tips on production of energetic ma terials, even diesel, is great.
Heres one link I found with about 5 seconds of googling, theres plenty of info out there.
http://www.builditsolar.com /Projects/BioFuel/biofuels.htm
P l e a s e e l a b o rate on biodiesel fuel and especially on any inter-relationship with energetic materials and / or the m echanics of
initiation, deflagration
C o u l d b i o - d i e s e l b e u sed in the production of ANFO ?
And you could live underground without turning into som e albino m utant race! :-)
Ok, but what if, just for the sa k e o f a r g u m ent, I want to turn into som e k i n d o f m utant albino? :D
monkeyboy May 19th, 2008, 06:36 AM

I've been following alternative energy since the '70s. Haven't done m uch in practice, except a little solar. I have a wealth of
information, though.
I like
http://www.knowledgepublications.com/
Has lots of info about hydrogen, a little about alcohol & a video about a soda can hydrogen gassifier:
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=OYA-Er2zm bE
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=i5lU V Y y 3 7 T Y
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=akwI_zs1QDU
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=FBm k8MNAuvQ
W ood gas stove he sells on his site:

http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=pyofhLYYVC8
H o m epower m agazine is also good, if you look around on their site, you can get the current issue for free( I think I've got 1 0 5
of 125 issues...):
http://www.hom epower.com/hom e/
M o t h e r u s e d t o b e g o od, but not worth the paper it's printed on now. Here's the archive:
http://www.m otherearthnews.com /article-categories.aspx
The stuff from the '70s & '80s was the best.
The July '79 issue was the pinnacle, with an article on a DIY hybrid, a still form old hot water heaters & a so lar still.
http://www.m otherearthnews.com /Gree n-Transportation/1979-07-01/An-Am azing-75-MPG-Hybrid-Electic-Car.aspx

http://www.m otherearthnews.com /Gree n-Hom e s / 1 9 7 9 - 0 7-01/Mothers-W ood-Burning-Still.aspx
http://www.m otherearthnews.com /Renewable-Energy/1979-07-01/An-O ffbeat-Approach-To -Alcohol-Production.aspx
Yes, I have an original copy.
Backwoods hom e m a g a z i n e i s g o o d , h a s a p r e t t y g o o d a r c h i v e , t o o .
http://www.backwoodshome.com/
B i o - d i e s e l f r o m a l g a e sounds like the way to go, there's basically 2 guys prom oting it, google for Michael Briggs ( college prof/
rese archer)
or dam n, can't rem e m b e r t h e o t h e r g u y s n a m e , but I think he's the guy from gra s s o l e a n . c o m . S e e m s a lot m ore in terested in
cashing in, than sharing the info...
S o m e sites from m y b o o k m arks:
http://biodiesel.rain-barrel.net/biodiesel-from-algae/
http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Algaculture
http://www.oilgae.com /
http://www.grassolean.com /
http://www.castoroil.in/reference/plant_oils/uses/fuel/so u r c e s / a l g a e / b i o d i e s e l _ a l g a e . h t m l
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/frm / f / 1 5 0 1 0 0 0 0 3 1
http://biodieselnow.com / f o r u m s / 1 3 . a s p x
G o t a s e r i o u s t o n o f b o o k s o n a l t e r n a t e e n e r g y , b o t h e b o o k s & p h y s i c a l b o o k s . I g o t t o g e t a M e g a b o o k s c a n n e r t m put
together & start scanning som e of m y b o o k s !
Ok, but what if, just for the sa k e o f a r g u m ent, I want to turn into som e k i n d o f m utant albino? :D
OK, but only if it's the kind with the eyelids grown over their vestigial eyes.
Woland_91 May 19th, 2008, 07:22 AM

Actually, if you have a good supply to organic waste (coughtexasfarm cough) you can set up a biogas digester. All you need is
3 big tanks half burie d in the ground, at around 30 to 4 0 C (I have no id ea what that is in fahrenheit). The three tanks are
lined up in this order:
1) The first tank is the m ixing pit, basically where you d ump all the m anure and whatever else organic waste you have (has to
b e s h r e d d e d t h o u g h ) . T h i s t a n k i s c o n n e c t e d t o t h e 2 n d t a n k b y a p r e s s u r i s i e d t u be.
2) The second tank is the largest of th e three. This is where all the crap gets digested by bacteria, first aerobically, then
anaerobically as oxygen gets used up (tanks are air tight!). The anaerobic process produces around 70% p ure methane, which
is piped away from th e top, to wherever you want to store it. A second pipe leads to the 3rd tank on the sid e.
3)The final tank is the oxidation pond. A pipe to it's side allows water to overflow (just in case pressure builds up).
This thing produces q uite a lot of methane gas (for personal use, of course. If yo u want to power an entire block, then forge t
it). The main advantage is that you can chuck all sort of crap into it and it will con vert it into m e t h a n e g a s . A n y t h i n g , f r o m
m anure to corpses (rem ember to cut it up thou gh!). The only disadvanta ge I can think of is the smell, but you get used to it
when you sm ell it 24/7.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Cell phone tracking
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monkeyboy May 19th, 2008, 05:39 AM

There's an interesting article over at slashdot today about shopping malls using equipment to track people via the cell phone
continuously broadcasting the imei number.
Original article:
http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article3945496.ece
Slashdot thread:
http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/05/18/1838222.shtml
In the thread, somebody posted this link about DIY realtime GPS tracking using a $40 pre-paid phone:
http://www.instamapper.com/diytracking.html
I seem to remember a thread here that touched on that very subject?

Was either the armored bobcat or the eye in the sky one, can't remember.
JohnG May 19th, 2008, 12:22 PM

I am afraid that this may soon become another example of big brother being able to track your every move.
Recently in the local news was an article about divorce lawyers using Ezpass logs, cell phone call history, and personal GPS
devices to track where you have been, and when. Originally when Ezpass came to my state, the logs were supposed to be
purged every week (excepting the toll violations). I know in London there are hundreds of cameras monitoring city streets, I'm
glad it hasn't come to that here yet, but I think of it every time I see a new traffic camera at a street light (around here only
about 15-20% for now, all in very urban areas).
The store may elect to sell the info to a marketing company, this is done now with 'shoppers discount cards'. Those cards have
been used in supermarkets for more than a decade, and many people use them. Sure some people realize that everything
they have bought for the past few years is in a database, but they just don't care if they are saving a couple bucks. With these
cell tracking devices they could eventually narrow down what part of the store you were in, and for how long. Perhaps this could
lead to personalized ads (ever see 'Minority Report'). Even possible now - if you have a bluetooth phone, personalized ads/
offers can be texted immediately to your phone. ('We see you spent 5 minutes looking at the yeast infection cures - buy
Vagisil NOW for $1.00 off!!') :p
If the store keeps logs for any length of time, laws could be enacted in time they could be required to turn them over to a
central database. (Just in case of coarse!) Do you think the stores would hesitate to turn them over to fedgov agents with even
the threat of of a warrant (or the all encompassing 'we are tracking terrorists') who is going to say no to that? (I can just see
the news if they refuse 'Local store supports terrorisms!')
monkeyboy May 19th, 2008, 01:00 PM

China is in the process of doing just that, with technology developed by the US.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/20797485/chinas_allseeing_eye/print
Pretty chilling stuff, coming soon to a democracy near you.

Just so there is no misunderstanding here; various agencies can track and pin down a cell communication in about less time
that it takes for you to read this.
Listening to the call, recording the call are different matters but tracking it is "four-second-simple".

Yes it is well known that they can track your cell phone calls & location very easily. But usually this info is while you are actually
on a call, what cell towers your signal is pinging off, and the strength of said signals.
What this technology does is track you with just your phone being turned ON, not necessary being on a call. Although I
assume cell companies could possibly do this now, I don't think they are currently tracking and recording the movements of
every cell user out there. Private companies have alot to gain from recording your activities moving around their stores, and
the future abuse of this info is what is concerning to me.
Barnacles May 20th, 2008, 09:02 PM

I think now they ping cells of those they are looking for. So you don't have to be on the phone to get tracked. if you are a
murder suspect you can bet they will be pinging your phone to find you...
I like watching the first 48, it's a show about the first 48 hours of a murder investigation. This show is great and really gives
you some ideas of how the police work. The database they have on people and criminals is pretty impressive. I remember
looking at the computer screen when they were looking for a guy named T. The data they keep is impressive. I can imagine
that in the future should there be a civil war or something of that nature they will use this to collect "evil people" , I was trying
to think of a word that starts with a "D" that means non comformist or someone the government considers dangerous
or whatever.
They also use this new technology thats a 3d scanner. It spins around and takes a scan of the area and builds a 3d panorama
image of the scene. Police can later go back and look at it for evidence. I remember they noticed some new blood drops while
looking that the image. They can also use it to corroborate eyewitness testimony by viewing things from their perception to
see if they could've possibly seen what they claim or are liars.
monkeyboy May 21st, 2008, 12:43 AM
to collect "evil people" , I was trying to think of a word that starts with a "D" that means non comformist or someone the
government considers dangerous or whatever.
Democrats?:p
They also use this new technology thats a 3d scanner. It spins around and takes a scan of the area and builds a 3d panorama
image of the scene. Police can later go back and look at it for evidence. I remember they noticed some new blood drops while
looking that the image. They can also use it to corroborate eyewitness testimony by viewing things from their perception to
see if they could've possibly seen what they claim or are liars.
Really!:eek: I gotta see that!

What show is this? first 48 Ahh, looked it up. I'm going to have to see if I can find a copy. Any Idea which episode that was in?
/Don't watch TV, if I can't download it, I ain't watchin' it.
Barnacles May 21st, 2008, 02:38 AM

Ok sorry I must've got my shows confused, or they use the technology on both shows.
I found the title of the episode that I am thinking of "Final Call" on the show Crime 360.
the description of this particular episode http://www.aetv.com/listings/episode_details.do?episodeid=277917
megalomania May 22nd, 2008, 04:59 AM

An over reliance on technology to solve crime can lead to an investigator becoming complacent and sloppy. For example, I do
not have a cell phone, I never use them, I don't carry one around. I don't intend on getting one if I can avoid it, but I am a
phone phobic, which is why. I am not a trained rat that leaps to attention when the little bell goes off :)
If an investigator was trying to find someone who did not have a cell phone, but the investigator assumed he did, how many
hours would he waste in vain?
A hat, a hood, glasses, a scarf can all easily thwart a camera. Surveillance cameras have terrible resolution to boot. Also, the
more cameras there are, the more watchers there must be see the footage. This is why most cameras are just there to help
after something happens.
With advances in technology will come advances in ordinary surveillance. Imagine if you will HD quality mini cams all over the
mall networked to a multi exabyte archive that permanently stores the video footage, and the cams are interfaced with a facial
recognition system.
The facial recognition software is purchased and maintained through a subscription service of private companies, so they don't
violate any laws since they are not fedgov or law enforcement. The database contains the records of all known criminals, as
well as a blacklist of known and suspected shoplifters, and even your credit record and employment record. The store knows
how much money you have, if you are in debt, if you are employed, and by reading the RFID tags on all your clothes, what
brands you wear, and if you need to change your underwear.
You can't violate a right or freedom if you are a private individual, and since companies are deemed to be the same as private
individuals, the company can do whatever they want to you. How would you like a restaurant to refuse to serve you steak
because they know your cholesterol count based on your buying habits? How about your employer using medical diagnostic
toilets to test your urine for diseases so they know how healthy you are?
The cell phone is only the tip of the iceberg. Imagine once cities install RFID readers into curbs to accurately assess how much
roads get used, at least that will be the reason they give initially. Once every pair of shoes has an RFID tag in it, they can
track where every human being is in the country once they leave their home. Even bums wear shoes.
And don't think you can just wear someone else's shoes. Through a combination of data collected from the other RFID tags in
all your clothing the fedgov knows belongs to you, along with compiled video surveillance using facial recognition that knows
your height and weight, even your walking gait, breathing rhythm, and the volume of air you exhale as seen by infrared... the
computer knows you are you.
Naturally all this is for your own good. We are all so stupid and accident prone that we would set ourselves on fire every day if
it were not for the fedgov to protect us. We all need to be told what to eat, what to wear, when to sleep, who to talk to, what we
should say, and who to vote for.
Charles Owlen Picket May 22nd, 2008, 11:00 AM

I also don't like cell phones, don't use them, etc. I just find them annoying as shit. Also I was not raised up on talking to a
little bar of soap, so the whole thing feels ridiculous....but I agree -> I think cell phones make it much too easy to gather
information -FAST! Additionally I just read about a damn tough conviction that rested on the cell tower of the caller (receiving a
call) during the time of a supposed alibi.....bad joo-joo....Those Cell Phones.

Someone up there said "hundreds of cameras in London"... Try hundreds of cameras in most of the streets in London! There
is a ring of hundreds of cameras ringing the city ("The ring of steel" brought in to stop the IRA a long, long time ago, which is
still there today.) Every car is scanned for tax collection (congestion charge) and the new cameras use a form of LIDAR to
determine how much pollution you put out, in order to determine your charges!
There are police powers being brought on line every damned day - the power to harass suspects being one odious measure,
along with indefinite detention on the street, scanner systems in railway stations and malls, and more. How fitting that this
over-bearing police state is now run by the UK's brand new "Ministry of Justice"! :eek: How third-world dictatorship is that?

The rolling stone article (monkeyboy's link) quotes there are about 500,000 surveillance cameras currently operating in
London. Not sure if that is accurate (I haven't been to London in about 10 years) but yikes! That is disturbing. How many
thought police are monitoring those cameras? I'm also curious how long do they keep the surveillance footage?

What exactly are those cameras watching FOR? What Jacks said about cameras being used to stop the IRA is a common
misconception, cameras don't stop crime, they help solve it after the fact, but that is of little comfort when you get murdered
at the Kwicky Mart late at night trying to buy some gas.
All those cameras can't just be for traffic. Why don't they just tax all the cars like everywhere else. I know England has heard
of taxes, the US would not be here if not for English taxes.
Some of those cellphones do keep a record of where you have been. They can be useful for plotting running routes, or finding
out how far you drove, but they are far more likely to be used by suspicious lovers, stalkers, overbearing bosses, and the
fedgov criminals. I think they call this feature a "world line" and some phone services even let you make your current GPS
location and worldline visible on the web so your friends know where you are. At least that's the story marketing uses because
I have seen the commercials.

Six or seven years ago a car rental agency wouldn't rent me a car when I refused to sign a GPS tracking waiver. Apparently this
same company, (a few months before I tried renting from them), "caught" someone speeding in their rental using GPS
tracking technology. They tried to "fine" him, and he countersued for invasion of privacy, which ultimately turned into a release
waiver for them. I'm not sure how the lawsuits eventually worked out. This same technology is present in the OnStar system,
this is a tracking system that they make you pay a monthly fee for. :rolleyes:
Today all cells have GPS tracking technology (under the guise of if you ever need to call 911, they can find you). Obviously the
need for pinging your phone from cell towers may soon be outdated. My phone has the option of turning off the tracking
feature (excepting if you call 911), but if they can get around the off feature for 911 calls, this is a technology that may soon
be abused.
thelasttrueone May 26th, 2008, 12:21 PM

Would it be possible to disable the GPS tracker in your phone? The GPS feature can actually be quite useful if your phone has
a built in navigator like mine, but the tracking ability is something I do not trust my overlords, corporate and government, to
have.
In my county I know that the police have the ability to scan all cell phone conversations as they are going on. This is quite the
annoyance because me and my friends have to use codes when talking about anything less than legal
Anformula May 26th, 2008, 02:52 PM

My objection to cell phones is not really the potential for governmental abuse (which is real), but just the fact that they are
freaking annoying....
For many people, simply being employed now brings with it the assumption on the part of the employers that the person will
be reachable 24/7. It is cell phones that made this possible, nothing else. It used to be that time away from "work" was free
time, private time. Cell phones bring with them the potential of intrusion into our private lives at all hours. Not to mention, the
now complete lack of ability to enjoy some time away from the pressures of an annoying spouse.......:D Time on the road
away from home used to be sort of a private solace. No more...
And for what? What have cell phones really given us? The ability to tolerate an array of brainless teenagers chatting/texting
endlessly with other teenagers, to whom they would not have a word to say face to face.... I think the only real value of cell
phones is use as an emergency device.....if lost in the woods or involved in an accident...whatever. And to be reliably usefull in
those circumstances, you really need to have a satellite phone anyway. Technology marches on, but I think the sum effect of
the cell phone explosion to the society we live in is overwhelmingly NEGATIVE.
I think many of you are overlooking a critical reality when you express fears of the "information age" with video and cell phone
monitoring everywhere. Yes, it would be possible for the fedgov or whomever to set up video cameras and record EVERYTHING
that happens. But how can all that data be used? The more data that is acquired, the more old fashioned man hours are
necessary to sort through it and decide what is useful and what is not. Not to mention, storing it for any length of time and
cataloging it. The same basic principle is true for the millions of cellular phones floating around.
As much as I hate cell phones, they are actually more secure than wire phones. Any moron can tap in and listen to a wire line,
but to monitor a cell phone is a massive technological exercise that is damn near impossible without the cooperation of the
cell phone company. Yes, fedgov can do it, but if that is your fear you can swap cell phones every day anonymously and for
nominal expense. How do they know what phone to listen to?
The inclusion of "On-Star" GPS type devices in vehicles does consitute a massive invasion of privacy, no question. But we have
the option of not purchasing these services, or disabling them if we drive a car that has them.
IMHO, the most disturbing goverment over-stepping of bounds in the last 50 years is the proliferation of automatic red light
and speed "enforcement" cameras that are appearing everywhere. These amount to nothing more than blatant governmental
revenue generators, and yet I seldom hear a peep of objection to them. They have nothing to do with "safety", despite what
their proponents will claim. The day is coming when every intersection will have a red light camera, and every stretch of road
will have speed cameras, the fines will be outrageous, and you will be found guilty of every "violation" since there is no cop or
witnesses to be cross examined. The time is coming when the bulk of revenue for local governments will be generated by
these devices, and by that time nothing short of violent revolution will remove them. It amazes me how passively people
seem to accept this trend. You might as well have "checkpoints" at points where you are forced to pay the local government a
large sum of money in order to proceed.
OK, done ranting.

thelasttrueone:
In reference to disabling the phone's GPS, many phones allow disabling via software (still works for 911 calls!), but actually
disabling the hardware itself is another matter; whether you might render the phone unusable is probably a phone by phone
case. Since you say the police can monitor your calls: your phone has a navigator feature, don't you think it is possible the
police could download and/or monitor the GPS? I use a standalone GPS navigation device, no uploading/downloading involved.
(Thankfully the days of printing maps off mapquest are long gone).
Anformula:
As far as cell records go, I have about 5 1/2 years of cell records in excel format, I do use my cell daily, but not excessively.
That data file is less than 2 MB. I just checked online: My cell company has all my calls available online going back to August
2002. I think that even with 200+ million cell phones out there (in the US) a handful of terabyte drives would very easily store
years and years of cell data. Might they store the tower data too? (What tower[s] you were connected to). I'd have to say that
is a good possibility.
I think you may be underestimating the sophistication of software available now. I have a stepbrother who has worked at a
Connecticut casino for about 12 years. The security camera system might shock you. The software system has a database of
known cheats and unwanted/banned people (shared among all the US casinos), using facial recognition software it
automatically notifies a surveillance officer when a hit is made on the casino floor. No manually checking photos for the
surveillance people; the system does it for you. Since one of his coworkers (if you work there you can't gamble there) got
busted for gambling there, it was rumored that there is also an employee database the system uses.
The same technology can very easily be adapted for street use. First it will be a terrorist database, then a gang member
database, sooner or later it will be anyone with a warrant, and known felons/troublemakers. Cameras can be made to
automatically track a suspect without any human intervention. This is a technology that's available NOW.
If you haven't already, you should read the rollingstone link provided by monkeyboy, it goes into a very high tech citywide
surveillance techniques (long article, but quite interesting).
Anformula May 26th, 2008, 11:35 PM

At the end of the day, I don't really think the fedgov cares about terrorists, or gang members, or people with warrants, or
felons/troublemakers. I think they are mainly interested in making sure they get everyone to pay their taxes!:p
They care about people who might threaten their ability to stay in power....
Seriously though, you make good points. I was mainly talking about the ability to categorize and store video surveillance
footage. That is an exponentially greater problem than storing cell phone records.
I know facial recognition software exists, but I suspect it is very imperfect and easily spoofed.

I read a news article recently about how traffic cameras are working TOO well! In a few jurisdictions where the city was
depending on the revenue, drivers have been so cautious that the number of red light violations dropped to almost zero.
These cities pay a daily access fee that amounts to something like $15,000 a year if I recall that figure right. They have
begun shutting the cameras down so they don't have to pay. They make a big to-do when they shut the cameras down so
everyone knows it; the hope is people will resume their bad habits in time for the cameras to go back online.
Serves the cocksuckers right :) Heavens forbid people actually followed traffic law, what a disaster that would be.
On cell phones, if you don't want to be tracked, remove the battery from the phone. You can't get incoming calls this way, of
course. One could remove the battery only during those times you do not wished to be tracked.
The cell phone is a wonderful invention, now you can get solicited any time, anywhere. There is nothing better than giving
money to some random stranger on the phone for a product you never knew you wanted. I got me some free cruise tickets,
only $500 each, what a deal, and they were free! Oh, wait...
iHME June 5th, 2008, 09:37 AM

...by that time nothing short of violent revolution will remove them.
Around here some people had driven around shooting traffic cameras with a shotgun. 50k eur in damages, and they ware not
caught,
It its worth noting that there is a camera in only about 1 in 10 "traffic cameras around here, they just cost too much and they
change the camera unit between 'em. The systems without cameras have a confiscated pirate cd playing the role of camera
optics to fool people :p
carbon13 June 6th, 2008, 04:30 AM

I was approached at work recently by a telecoms company that was selling mobile phone tracking to us as general consumers.
The offer was simple: We could track all of our fleet of mobile phones with an accuracy of 50m guaranteed - in reality this
came down to a couple of metres in most areas with multiple cell towers for triangulation. We were given a login to a HTTPS
site, and we could then filter based on individual phones or groups of phones.
To add a phone to the list to be tracked, all we did was notify the company and within a few hours the new phone number was
trackable. Although a SMS was sent to the phone notifying the user it was now being tracked - but what is stopping your
employer deleting this message before they give you the phone (ie. company phone to new employee)?!
If this technology is now available to consumers, particularly over the very public internet, then it lies open for abuse and also
has many privacy issues. I'd suggest that with a bit of social engineering it would be possible to track just about any phone.
Anformula June 7th, 2008, 02:16 AM

"V for Vendetta" (one of my favorite movies of the last 10 years) is a believable and terrifying portrayal of a government out
of control. The technological means of oppression are merely a step or two beyond what is available and in use now, which
combined with the even more believable corruption and thirst for power the movie portrays.....scary stuff.
I imagine you have all seen the film, but if you haven't, do it. Entertaining also.
Barnacles June 7th, 2008, 03:08 AM

That is one of top 25 of my movies. I love the vichyssoise of verbiage ( my old spelling bee days actually got me to spell that
word right the first time without checking oMg lol) The V speech, when I quit pot I made it a mission to test my new memory
by memorizing that V speech as I call it.
"Voila , In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This
visage no mere veneer of vanity is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-
gone vexation, stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing
the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.
The only verdict is vengeance. A vendetta, held as a votive, ( I actually wrote up to here from memory, been almost 1-2 years
since I have even thought of it!!!) not in vain for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the
virtuous. Verily this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you
and you may call me V."
Anformula June 7th, 2008, 06:02 PM

Hahahahaahah.....
Yup. I loved the dialog.
Even better, I loved his "Good Morning, London..........." speech that was piped into the emergency broadcast system.
".....I thought we could take this opportunity to sit down and have a little chat. Of course, there are those who do not want us
to speak. Even now, I suspect orders are being shouted into telephones and men with guns will soon be on their way. And yet,
while the truncheon can always be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power.........."
Something like that anyway. Cool stuff......:)
-=HeX=- July 29th, 2008, 01:14 PM

I think now they ping cells of those they are looking for. So you don't have to be on the phone to get tracked. if you are a
murder suspect you can bet they will be pinging your phone to find you...
Damn right they ping it, see below...
Cell phone tracking, my personal experience.
In june of this year, I ran away from home. I was caught. The details of this will be written in another thread at a later time.
The police got involved because I am a minor, and they took it seriously.
After they raided/ no warrent searched some of my friends houses, they decided to try to track my mobile phone. They called
my mobile network but the network didnt give any data for 12 hours.
When they did give in, the data was 23 hours old, and no activity on my phone from that time on. So they began to 'Ping' my
phone, to see its location.
This too failed, and they said that the phone had been disabled. The police asked if that meant it was switched off. Here is
the main point: the network said they CAN track it, even when 'switched off' because IT STILL EMITS A SIGNAL. I had removed
the battery so no power was available to do this, so they no longer could track the phone. They still kept pinging it just in
case. But I had effectively 'Disabled' it by removing the battery and SIM card.
That is the main point. If the battery is removed, they CAN NOT TRACK YOU. For extra security, REMOVE THE SIM CARD, IT
WORKED FOR ME.
I had already aquired a clean phone via an associate, but I was later caught because a cop spotted me. Upon my capture I
was allowed to see how they were trying to find me. They were about to begin datamining for a new number off my friends
phones, but seeing as the group of friends is very large, and still growing, they admitted that even that supposedly 'Failproof'
method would definately fail.
Even so, I would only bother calling like 3 friends anyway, one who would arrange places to stay, another who was going to get
me pyro supplies, and a third who I could not live without.
This leads me to summarize the main points of the (true) story.
1. THEY CAN TRACK A PHONE THAT IS SWITCHED OFF VERY EASILY.
2. THEY CAN NOT TRACK A PHONE THAT HAS BEEN DISABLED VIA HAVING THE BATTERY REMOVED.
3. DATAMINING WILL USUALLY FAIL MISERABLY BECAUSE OF THE RAPID GROWTH OF THE GROUP FRIENDS THAT WILL
NATURALLY OCCUR.
4. DO NOT USE YOUR OLD PHONE WITH A NEW SIM CARD BECAUSE THE IMEI CODE IS WHAT ALSO ALLOWS THEM TO TRACK
YOU.
5. IF YOU SELL YOUR OLD PHONE TO A SECOND HAND DEALER, THE PURCHASER WILL BE (UNWITTINGLY) ACTING AS A FALSE
TRAIL BECAUSE OF THE IMEI CODE BEING TRACKED.
Hirudinea July 30th, 2008, 08:07 PM

Damn right they ping it, see below...
This leads me to summarize the main points of the (true) story.
1. THEY CAN TRACK A PHONE THAT IS SWITCHED OFF VERY EASILY.
2. THEY CAN NOT TRACK A PHONE THAT HAS BEEN DISABLED VIA HAVING THE BATTERY REMOVED.
3. DATAMINING WILL USUALLY FAIL MISERABLY BECAUSE OF THE RAPID GROWTH OF THE GROUP FRIENDS THAT WILL
NATURALLY OCCUR.
4. DO NOT USE YOUR OLD PHONE WITH A NEW SIM CARD BECAUSE THE IMEI CODE IS WHAT ALSO ALLOWS THEM TO TRACK
YOU.
5. IF YOU SELL YOUR OLD PHONE TO A SECOND HAND DEALER, THE PURCHASER WILL BE (UNWITTINGLY) ACTING AS A FALSE
TRAIL BECAUSE OF THE IMEI CODE BEING TRACKED.
If you want to avoid datamining just use payphones, they're less likely to find you that way, see not all old technology is
obsolete.
Kaydon July 31st, 2008, 02:27 AM

Only problem is in some area payphones are pretty rare these days. At least here. I know of only 2 in town, one on each
side.. I wouldn't hike that far to make a phone call.
Anformula July 31st, 2008, 03:05 AM

In june of this year, I ran away from home. I was caught. The details of this will be written in another thread at a later time.
The police got involved because I am a minor, and they took it seriously.
The cops went to all this trouble to find you because you ran away from home?:confused:
I eagerly await your full report, there must be untold parts of the story. Where I live you could have killed someone, and the
cops would have yawned and gotten donuts, and never gone to that much trouble......
akinrog August 2nd, 2008, 04:41 PM

just use payphones,
In my case, they are not only rare but also majority of them are being replaced with either magnetic phone card varieties
(which can be traced to you if they find the magnetic phone card on yourself) or mostly with smart card / credit card varieties,
so pig and intelligence butchers may easily trace the calls to you easily. Regards.
James August 2nd, 2008, 10:51 PM

Heh, checkout p.72-3 chapt. 7 of 'The cat who walks through walls'. for the rarity of coin fed pay phones. Heinlein did not
appear to anticipte cell phones though or embeded tracking devices in our era though.
Hirudinea August 5th, 2008, 08:11 PM

Yes coin pay phones are going the way of the dinos, shame though they did give some vestige of privacy.
London_Dungeon August 6th, 2008, 11:29 PM

Why bother with all the sidesteping? I have a Net10 phone from WallyWorld. It's pay as you go, so there is no contract. As
long as I pay with cash I'm pretty untraceable. Wearing a disguise when paying would be foolproof.
The phone is also cheap enough to toss in the river if neccessary. Brand new ones with 300 minutes sell for $20, including the
phone. After that it's $15 a month. Works for me.
TheSavageHyena August 7th, 2008, 12:46 PM

With all of the surveillance out there I'm sure technology exists where we can spy on them.
http://www.spyshops.ca/phonesecurity.htm
Who knows....tap a known politicians phone line and see what kind of dirt you can kick up. Almost nothing is left of our privacy
all in the name of 'security'. Does anyone have experience using any of these devices and their effectiveness? I've used a
police scanner and had endless hours of fun listening to their calls :D
Kaydon August 8th, 2008, 01:47 AM

Interesting thought.. They tap ours, we should tap theirs. It would be a battle of wits.
Alexires August 8th, 2008, 02:14 AM

That is a tactic from the 48 LoP. Mirror your opponents actions, like in chess. Frustrating as hell too.
Law 44 - Disarm and Infuriate with the Mirror Effect.
Judgement: The mirror reflects reality, but it is also the perfect tool for deception: When you mirror your enemies, doing
exactly as they do, they cannot figure out your strategy. The Mirror Effect mocks and humiliates them, making the overreact.
By holding up a mirror to their psyches, you seduce them with the illusion that you share their values; by holding up a mirror
to their actions, you teach them a lesson. Few can resist the power of the Mirror Effect.
Bugger August 9th, 2008, 12:11 AM

http://www.spyshops.ca/phonesecurity.htm
(cut) I've used a police scanner and had endless hours of fun listening to their calls.
Did you overhear any Pigs boasting on air about the bribes they collected or solicited, or the innocent people whom they shot
or beat up, or the false evidence they planted at alleged crime scenes to frame innocent people on false charges in order to
obtain promotion and increase their clearance statistics?
waveguider August 18th, 2008, 11:20 AM

A Family member of mine happens to be a member of the police force and confronted me two months ago with a ''carbon
copy'' of my text messages going back to April of this year.
The messages contained a fair few drug slang names, Chemical names of illegal substances and a lot of fictitious drug names
(from an old show called Brass eye) like ''triple sod'' and ''rustle dust''.
Apparently they have this new monitoring system which scans messages for certain key words and my messages came up a
lot. Somehow my right to privacy was then voided because I used certain words and an unknown number of operates of this
monitoring system read all my messages (not limited to the ones containing ''key words'') and took notes on there contents.
From my understanding my family member in the police force got wind of this and showed me the carbon copies under the
belief that they were proof that I was dealing drugs (I wish I was, that's good money i hear!). I have ceased talking with this
family member because I do not trust him and I believe he may have been involved in this monitoring system.
I think I was lucky because I have a overzealous family member in the Police force who told me a little too much about this
systems, apparently it started off as a method to catch child porn distributors and recipients which sent picture messages to
each other and the police force could track the images sent because of how the image is converted to binary for transmitting.
Now the new system works very similarly to this like say the word ''horse'' is converted to 101100 for example and they have a
filtering system which logs any messages with this string, if a lot of logs come from one sender, like me, I am led to believe
that this red lists my number and thus makes it okay for a third party to view the messages, to ascertain if I am explaining
illegal activity.
I tried to strike back by conveying what I knew to the Data Protection Commissioner here in the same country as Hex, The
Republic of Ireland. The last correspondence I received from them was over one month ago telling me that they are going to
approach my mobile phone service provider to see if there is any evidence of this Orwellian activity, as all I have is my word
and the carbon copies. I tried to contact them last week as I was concerned about the status of the investigation and I didn't
get a reply.
I know this sounds like something from a paranoid schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur who has read too many books on
Echelon but I give my word that all that is above is the truth.
Anformula August 18th, 2008, 01:50 PM

I believe every word of it....
If one thinks about it, coming up with software to scan any sort of text communication, and even verbal communication, to
search for certain words would not be difficult at all.
With very slightly more sophistication, it could analyze certain combinations of words and establish a sliding scale of "risk
level" of various communications. They could then be evaluated manually, based on the perceived level of "risk".
Orwell had it all pretty much right, he should have just called his book "2004".
The internet is certainly a two edged sword. While an outstanding means of communication and information sharing, it also
spells the end of privacy and true anomynity.
-=HeX=- August 18th, 2008, 04:49 PM

Hey Waveguider, our country is becoming more facist by the day, but at least we still have handguns. I remember you telling
me of the incident, and today I had a 'chat' with a certain ceargeant in the police, who briefly mentioned that the monitoring is
now fully in place, EXCEPT on a certain network, whose offices are not in Eire and therefore not in the gardai jurisdiction,
however they ARE slowly forfeiting their clients privacy (like they did to me) so trust no network.
My tale of escape and evasion will be online in several days, albeit heavily edited and abridged to protect the identities of my
loved ones and fellow 'conspiritors'. So those who know details I do not publish online, please for the security of those I love
DO NOT divulge any of the data I gave you in confidence.
sbovisjb1 August 18th, 2008, 08:26 PM

The cops went to all this trouble to find you because you ran away from home?:confused:
I eagerly await your full report, there must be untold parts of the story. Where I live you could have killed someone, and the
cops would have yawned and gotten donuts, and never gone to that much trouble......
AKA rich white kid, with affluent parents. Don't run away from home. Wait untill your 18 and find a way to support yourself. If
your parents bothered to raise you properly, but they as people are assholes you could dislike them still. Abused kids often
love their parents, but that could still have been you as you seem to be intelligent enough to psychoanalyze yourself.
-=HeX=- August 18th, 2008, 11:45 PM

AKA rich white kid, with affluent parents. Don't run away from home. Wait until your 18 and find a way to support yourself. If
your parents bothered to raise you properly, but they as people are assholes you could dislike them still. Abused kids often
love their parents, but that could still have been you as you seem to be intelligent enough to psychoanalyze yourself.
Lets get a few things straight.

Rich? no, I certainly am not rich.
White? yes.
Affluent parents? nope. One practically unemployed, one self employed but still fuck all income.
Now, it's a small city, I come from a small town, and everyone knows everyone else. People here still CARE. Unless you are an
immigrant, a beggar/ wino or a member of the travelling community (nacker) the police ACTUALLY GIVE A SHIT. If you are one
of the above mentioned minorities, they are trying to charge you with SOMETHING. However if you are a 'normal' lower to
middle class person, they will do their best to track your ass down, especially with a record like mine. They know me for various
reasons, but I try to leave those days behind me.
When my name and photo appeared in the system they apparently saw it as a high risk case and took appropriate measures,
knowing EXACTLY how intelligent and resourceful I could be. They initially underestimated me but once the cell phone
technique failed, they knew what they were dealing with. I am also quite a distinctive person, who stands out in a crowd (with a
mop of ginger hair its hard to blend in) and is well known.
When a 31 year old immigrant drowned they sent sniffer dogs, helicopters, search teams, and a SCUBA unit to search the river
(and that was for a IMMIGRANT). Look at the widely publicized case of Robert Holohan from Midleton in Cork, look at the
police effort there. The seargeant also mentioned that they didnt want a fiasco like THAT to happen, because the press would
eat them alive.
Understand Irish people, then you will understand it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Sevoflurane
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View Full Version : Sevoflurane
ArnoldFan May 20th, 2008, 07:14 PM

Hi all. I haven't found anything about this argument on the forum. Sevoflurane, (2,2,2-trifluoro-1-[trifluoromethyl]ethyl fluoromethyl ether), is a sweet-smelling, non-
flammable, highly fluorinated methyl isopropyl ether used for induction and maintenance of general anesthesia. It is a liquid at room temperature with a boiling point of 58.6 C
at 101.325 kPa. Does anyone have any idea about how to synthetize this substance?
megalomania May 22nd, 2008, 02:39 AM

Well, google is a nice place to start. Some patents on its synthesis come up as the top resulys if you search for (2,2,2-trifluoro-1-[trifluoromethyl]ethyl fluoromethyl ether).
United States Patent 6469219: An improved process for preparing fluoromethyl 2,2,2-trifluoro-1-(trifluoromethyl)ethyl ether(sevoflurane) by reacting 1,1,1,3,3,3-hexafluoro-2-
propanol with formaldahyde and hydrogen fluoride either A) under distillation conditions or B) in the presence of or with the subsequent addition of a solvent capable of
selectively extracting sevoflurane.
I would have thought trifluoroethanol would be a good place to start, but hexafluoroisopropanol is recommended. Obtaining hexafluoroisopropanol will be the tricky part.
Something like this you might want to just buy and save yourself the hassle, but I know full well how those words ring hollow to all but well funded chemists.
You can make hexafluoroisopropanol by hydrogenating hexafluoroacetone, and might I tentatively suggest a catalytic transfer hydrogenation using a microwave instead of the
traditional high pressure hydrogen gas method. Hexafluoroacetone is so electronegative that it must tear those hydrogens to shreds to steal the electrons :) so I imagine the
reaction proceeds under mild conditions.
There is actually a synthesis for hexafluoroacetone in Organic Synthesis: http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/orgsyn/prepContent.asp?prep=CV7P0251
As for the hexafluoropropene, or hexafluoropropylene if you prefer has several patents concerning its synthesis. Check out US Patents 5068472; 5057634; and 5043491. These
use hexachloropropylene as the starting material. That's all the farther I am going to track this beast.
Ahh, I can't resist. A mixture of chloroform and trichloroethylene in the presence of aluminum chloride, heated to 20 C, should form heptachloropropane, which when treated
with alcoholic potassium hydroxide at room temp will form hexachloropropylene.
ArnoldFan May 22nd, 2008, 05:52 AM

Thanks mega... I'll look for those patents. Have you ever thought about producing a little quantity of this substance? I think it could be regarded as the safest compound with
which one can knock-out someone without fear of killing him...:D
P.S. I think that for this synth a well equipped laboratory is required... Am I right? Unless I'd try your last suggestion...
"A mixture of chloroform and trichloroethylene in the presence of aluminum chloride, heated to 20 C, should form heptachloropropane, which when treated with alcoholic
potassium hydroxide at room temp will form hexachloropropylene."
:D
megalomania May 22nd, 2008, 05:08 PM

You like that eh? I didn't know yesterday what reference that information came from, I just found it in a pdf. I got curious today because I like those old practical syntheses,
vague as they are on specific details of time, yield, and purity, but it's not like they had an NMR to assist them, or column chromatography, or an accurate scale...
I found the original source today after a little legwork. It is from J. Chem. Soc., Abstr., 1913, 104, i1037 - i1122 which is available for free on the rsc.org website here:
http://www.rsc.org/publishing/journals/article.asp?doi=CA9130401037
Indeed it looks like all of the Journal of the Chemical Society, Abstracts issues are free:
http://www.rsc.org/Publishing/Journals/ca/Article.asp?Type=CurrentIssue
It is always thrilling to get a free journal, even what should be public domain material. The reason I tracked down the source is because I was hoping there would be more free
articles like this. I have a particularly hard time getting journals from the Royal Society of Chemistry for some reason.
FUTI May 27th, 2008, 07:12 AM

I noticed also that some journals previously unavailable to me suddenly go public. UK journals were notorious in its pricing for an article that I didn't want to call them as I had
the insane fear that Hello would cost 29,99GBP.
But Mega your link redirector doesn't work. It doesn't matter anyway as I have been able to find the way through RCS site based on your info. Thanks for spreading the word
Mega.
I see that they changed also the site. I find it funny that they on previous site version had search that emphasized the long line of science in UK as it asked you to first select
the year of the issue you want to see from a drop-down menu that started by default with for example 1732 and you had to scroll down to 200x you wanted to see current
research.
This info is pure gold for me as it is close to some of my ideas...if I only could find a good neat way to convert those chlorine to fluorine that would be excellent.

I apologize, link redirecting does not work for url's that have special symbols like question marks because of the possibility of abuse, but my status as admin also doesn't have
the software yelling at me for errors like that...
The actual link is http://www.rsc.org/publishing/journals/article.asp and add this after the .asp ?doi=CA9130401037

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > M o d i f i e d h u m a n m arker
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View Full Version : Modified human marker
oddpat May 21st, 20 08, 08:2 5 AM

S o m e faggots at our university library have taken to drilling holes in the doors of the toilet cubicles. W h e n m aintenance fills
one up, they drill 2 m ore, som etim e s i n t h e s a m e s p o t .
W hich gave m e a n i d e a . . .
I need to cre a t e s o m e t h i n g s i m ilar to the "pain t bombs" (the correct term escapes me) which police sometim e s p u t i n t o a b a g
of cash, which then detonates and covers those nearby in a easily visible substance that is hard to rem o v e .
I need to cre ate a pellet with a maximum d i a m eter of 1/4" and m a x i m u m depth of 1/4", one for each side of the cubicle wa ll.
It should contain som ething b rightly coloured which won't harm your eyes, but is hard to rem ove without special chem icals, a n d
s o m ething to deploy said colo urant when a drill bit / screwdriver etc. is pressed into it.
M y k n o w l e d g e o f c h e m icals is nill, so I need your help! W hat can safely deploy said colourant, and what can be used as the
colourant?
Hirudinea May 21st, 20 08, 06:5 9 PM

I t s o u n d s l i k e s o m e o n e i s a p e e p i n g t o m , m abye a stakeout wo uld work better, sit in a to i l e t a n d i f s o m e o n e p e e k s t h r o u g h
the hole spray them with pepper spray, that'll learn'em !
robinhood1532 May 21st, 20 08, 09:1 9 PM

I know I'm not the best person to say this, but if you have no knowledge of "chem icals", then you probably should not plan on
undertaking this project just yet.:rolleyes:
I can only im agine the possibilities for disaster this type of device has. All it takes is som e s h r a p n e l t o t h e e y e s a n d y o u r
f i n g e r p r i n t s a r o u n d t h e h o l e a n d e v e n a P e e p i n g T o m can find a way to sue you in this *cough* wonderful country.
If you were serious about m aking a device that wouldn't harm the culprit, I would do som e tests on flesh-analogs first, then
even yourself, using an inert substance instead of ink.
As far as the ink goes, I can't help you there, but it would be interesting to use a mild allergen instead. (Although this is
probably a worse idea in terms of safety).
EDIT: I hear that the tricky Nitrogen Tri-Iodide stains pretty bad. And its about as sensitive as anyone would ever need -
probably too sensitive. If you were feeling brave though, in small quantities this m ay be worth looking into.
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=2KlAf936E90 -- NO T m y video, sorry if this happ ens to be from a y o u t u b e a c c o u n t b e l o n g i n g
to som eone here.
Bert May 21st, 20 08, 11:3 9 PM

I think m ost places would pun ish you m ore for setting an explosive trap in public than for being a pervert in public-
Woland_91 May 22nd, 2008, 03:17 PM

Check this out:
http://www.in structables.com/id/Paintball-Grenades/
I can't afford T i p p m a n n s q u a d b u s t e r s , s o i n s t e a d I u s e h o m e m a d e p a i n t b a l l g r e n a d e s .
In your case, m a k e a m uch sm aller ve rsion of the grenade by filling a shorter len gth of th e tube with paint. If you want
permanent ink that stays for days (if not weeks), go look for it in joke shops. Once this is m ade, carefully strap onto the wall,
a n d r e m ove the safety pin. If it starts to leak, run like hell.
R e m e m b e r t o a i m the open end of the grenade towards the pervert!
Good hunting!
oddpat May 22nd, 2008, 07:40 PM

I'm studying engineering, so I m ight just have the brains to do this... bu t I need to have a direction to do research in. I can't
exactly put a RDX/TNT mixture in there, now ca n I?
As for the pu n i s h m e n t, if you're useless enough to get caught...
W oland, stop posting shit! How would that crap fit in a 1 /4x1/4" cylinder?
Woland_91 May 23rd, 2008, 04:01 AM

Not fitting that into a 1/4" cylinder, you simply use a sm aller tub e containing the paint. No m atter how small the tub e is, as
long as a little pressure is applied on it, the surgery tub e will spray the paint out. Now, if the size is 1/4", it won't be m uch, b ut
hey, it's a better idea than slapping a charge on the wall with som e p a i n t a n d h o p i n g t h e p e r v e r t ' s f a c e d o e s n ' t e n d u p l i k e a
swiss cheese.
tranquillity May 23rd, 2008, 08:46 AM

W hy not fill the hole with some kind of ink or staining agent that reacts on contact with skin. As the culprit drills the hole the
chemical sprays out via the drill bit slots and stains their hands or face if they are looking too close. For a sim ple ch e m i c a l
p e r m a n g a n a t e s s e e m like the obvious choice; m ake up a thick slurry of water and finely powdered KMnO 4 . T h e p u r p l e s o l u t i o n
will leave dark brown stains which can last for up to a few days.
As for perma nganate in the eyes I am fairly certain that it can cause som e d a m a g e a s i t i s a s t r o n g o x i d i s e r b u t n o i d e a o f t h e
extent.
F o r t h e s a k e o f b e i n g inconspicuous you cover the first few m m of each side of the hole with your norm al filling m aterial and
the centre with perm a n g a n a t e o r w h a t e v e r e l s e y o u c h o o s e .
Note: Potassium permanganate will also stain pretty m uch everything else it com es in contact with too. I have found fairly
concentrated acids are the only thing that will dissolve the MnO2 stains.
robinhood1532 May 23rd, 2008, 04:55 PM

W hy not fill the hole with some kind of ink or staining agent that reacts on contact with skin.
T h i s i s t a k e n directly from Wikipedia: "A spill of AgNO 3 solution on the skin results in a white stain which turns dark after
exposure to sunlight(UV radiation), after long periods of no sunlight the stain ma y revert back to white/ligh t purple. The stain
usually goes away as the skin peels, which takes about 1.5 weeks."
I've spilled a very dilute solution of silver nitrate on my hand and it was darkened for a long time. I survived too....
drsx May 23rd, 2008, 05:59 PM

T h e b r o m o p h e n o l b l u e, a skin like colour powder, can absorb to the skin, and above PH 4.6 have a blue co lour (PH value from
W i k i p e d i a ) . N e e d s s o m e days to wear off.
It has two major disadvantage: the high price and the toxicity (irritate the skin and the eyes).
+++++++++++++++++++
Do not sign your posts. - The_Duke
totenkov May 23rd, 2008, 07:53 PM

I was toying with the idea of d eleting this thread because it seemed a bit stupid.
Silver Nitrate is not effective enough, extremely expensive, and horrid waste of chems. Don't bother as there are cheaper
substances out there. NBKs pocket dragon, a m iniature version m ay be effective, could you im agin e...a cubicle door that
breaths fire :D
akinrog May 23rd, 2008, 08:49 PM

Silver Nitrate is not effective enough, extremely expensive, and horrid waste of chems.
A s s u m e t h a t t h e g u y ( p e e p i n g t o m ) get shot at his eyes with Silver Nitrate, it shall be a m e s s .
The best shot here, I believe, is to install (i.e. hide) a pressurized container behind the wall, conta ining som e sort of
fluorescent (and most im portantly harm less) dye which shall be squirted through the hole when som ebody drills it.
IIR C, riot cops use some sort of pepper spray on the rioters containing fluorescent dye. Even if the dem onstrator escapes, the
police collects him s o m ewhere else, since they bear the dye for at least a few days.
However I'm sorry to agree this is a bad thread . :(

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > R ules?
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View Full Version : Rules?
Wallybanger May 23rd, 2008, 11:43 PM

OK, I'm really going out on a lim b h e r e a n d I ' m hoping I can sneak away without a ban.
I read the rules when I filled out the registration form a n d t h e y s e e m ed pretty clear. My first stop was the rules forum a n d
f o u n d i t e m p ty. My next stop was the banned for life forum and I was quite surprised at what warrants a ban. I then did a
search and d idn't find m uch of anything that looked like a rules thread.
I'm quite curious about the administrators concerns in regards to legality. Are there rules regarding what topics are off limits or
is th is site pretty m u c h a n y t h i n g g o e s ?
Otherwise, I don't have any problem s capitalizing my "I"s, keeping m y gram mar in good order, avoiding signing m y p o s t s a n d
getting along with other mem bers.
I'm quite excited abo ut being a m e m b e r , t h i s s e e m s l i k e a f a n t a s t i c s i t e a n d I ' m h o p i n g m y stay will be long and prosperou s.
Enkidu May 24th, 2008, 12:27 AM

The Rules are here (http://roguesci.org/theforum/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_faq_therules). W e are undergoing a transition
period; m any of the old rules' threads will even tually replace the reserved threads that m e g a h a s c r e a t e d .
A p o l i t e P M t o o n e o f t h e m o d s is a be tter method for a d d r e s s i n g a n i s s u e s u c h a s t h i s .

W allybanger,
As far as your posting style looks so far (this thread) you seem to be capable of writing in English with the correct use of the
S h i f t k e y a n d e v e n b e t t e r , u s e c u r i o s l i k e a p o s t r o p h e s t h a t m a n y h e r e o m it at their peril.
J u s t h a v e s o m ething interesting to say, or som ething useful, or indeed, som ething brilliant and new, and your life here will be
long and interesting. No pressure! ;-)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Busy tonight
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ChippedHammer June 8th, 2008, 01:51 PM

Looks like a new reco rd has been set and the server hasn't shit a brick.
1439 (187 m embers and 1252 guests)
Let the good tim es roll :)
JohnG June 8th, 2008, 02:12 PM

I was wondering about that too, in the past it seem ed the most uses online rarely went over a couple hundred, with only about
20% of that being m e m b e r s . T h e n u m bers see m to be steadily growing every couple hours....
Is it possible the software update isn't logging people o f f ? O r m a y b e s o m e s e a r c h e n g i n e s / I P s t h a t w e r e b l o c k e d a r e n o w

allowed?
BlackFalcoN June 8th, 2008, 02:22 PM

I think the vBulletin package has been configured differently and that the previous 'show as online ' timeout value was different
from the current one.
If you go the "W ho's Online" link at :

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/online.php?s=&sortfie ld=tim e&sortorde r=desc&who=all&pp=200
then you can see that people who were last active m ore than 12 hours ago, are still registered as 'O nline'
Mr Science June 8th, 2008, 03:58 PM

T h e p r e v i o u s b o a r d h a d a o n e h o u r m e m ory, this one a p p e a r s t o b e 2 4 h o u r . I l o o k a t t h e o n l i n e l i s t , a n d I a m s e e i n g g u e s t s
"here" 22 hours ago, or 4:06 PM CST (yesterday). But it still looks cool seeing so many people online at the same tim e,
whether its real or greatly exaggerated.
Edit: I guess I was wrong, its m ore tha n 24. It is going on 25 ho urs for som e g u e sts. Oh well. :)
Vitalis June 9th, 2008, 12:52 AM

Looks like it was fixed: "Curre ntly Active Users: 18 (6 m e m b e r s a n d 1 2 g u e s t s ) "
Mr Science June 9th, 2008, 12:56 AM

W ell now its counting active people for the last 3 m inutes. I'm sure its just a bug that needs to be fixed.
TheSavageHyena June 9th, 2008, 01:00 AM

Hopefully it's a sign for things to come . Sooner or later the average Joe or even k3wl will come to the reality, that he is a m ere
pawn in the grand scheme of things. And will tu rn to the great fo rum t h a t h a s h e l p e d a n d s h a p e d m any lives for the better. I
c a n o n l y a s s u m e that m e m b e r s h i p h e r e h a s o n l y s t e a d i l y i n c r e a s e d . C a n anyone confirm m y speculation? I just hope the
m a s s e s f i n d t h e s e r e s o u r c e s a n d e d u c a t e t h e m selves b efore it's too late .
Alexires June 16th, 2008, 05:31 AM

Yeah, it has been increasing. Incidentally, I think there is a thread about it:p

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > A question of thermodynamics.
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megalomania June 9th, 2008, 08:47 AM

Here is a question that has irritated me for some time now that I forgot about until the beginning of the summer heat.
Consider a fast moving fan blowing air directly on you. This is intended to keep you cool because the fast moving air takes up some of your heat and is rapidly moved
away. However, what if the air blowing through the fan is significantly warmer than you? Shouldnt fast moving air that is hot actually make you warmer, or is the fact
the air is moving at such a great speed and making momentary contact enough for it to momentarily get even hotter. Does this not go against the technical rules of
thermodynamics, or is this allowed by the f act the air is moving so fast in cant reach equilibrium with your body?
This problem occurred to me a couple summers ago when I was working at the steel mill. They have these large shop fans on the floor which is fine in some areas, but I
wonder how much good they do for the guys around the furnaces where the ambient air is over 130 degrees F in the summer. The heat might actually be greater depending
on if a furnace door is open, hot steel is being moved, how the fans may be positioned, and the time of day.
As I sit now at my computer, my fan in the window blowing on me, it looks to be another 90+ degree day. Is it actually counterproductive to have heat so much warmer than
me blowing right on me? Would it be better to move the fan on the other side of me and blow the interior room air on me?
The theory would seem to indicate blowing air hotter than you should make you hotter. In my experience I am cooler sitting in front of the fan blowing on high. Of course in
the winter when I go over to my parents house, as they have a fireplace that gets used all the time, I like to stand in front of the blower to get warm. It is blowing very hot
air, albeit not as fast as a fan on high, but the blower still goes rather fast.
Is there some rule that defines where heat energy is allowed to go against the standard thermodynamics and make a system temporarily not at equilibrium? If so, Is there a
limit to how hot the air can be and still take away heat? I would think at some point, if it got hot enough, the hot air blowing on my through my fan would actually make me
warmer.
Charles Owlen Picket June 9th, 2008, 12:25 PM

Interesting.....My take on this is the human cooling system. We sweat and the sweat is body temp. The moving air (of the fan, in our example) drops the level of temp of the
sweat droplets as it forms, producing a "feeling" of coolness.
In point of fact it possibly does us no good what so ever as it evaporates the water from the body at a greater rate. There is also the acclimation of the body to conditions
where we live. I live and have lived for MANY years in a place (you know) where it typically rivals Death Valley for median temp. I'm used to it; I wear long sleeves to keep
the UV from giving me skin problems. - I go to a friend's State for Holiday and it feels COLD to me at 60 F !!! (I'm really NOT kidding.)
So with this example we have two issues, one thermodynamic, the other is the human cooling system. We've all seen picture of peoples who developed in climates of
EXTREME humidity.....I've read that the level of sweat glands for indigenous persons who lived in such areas for multiple generations gets less and less....
Telkor June 9th, 2008, 04:58 PM

Well, the increased air speed will make the sweat vaporize faster, cooling down the skin, while the direct transport of heat from the warm air will not be increased.
However, as the production of sweat is limited, you'll reach a certain temperature where the air stream won't cool you any more, no matter of speed.
The higher the air humidity, the less cooling effect will be achieved.
sbovisjb1 June 9th, 2008, 06:28 PM

I went to the Bushveld for the first time in 10 years. I do not believe how hot it got (my body got unused to the extreme temps.) The farm laborers were used to it and they
laughed at me sweating in the shade. They were very kind and got me drinks, etc, but after a few weeks I got used to it and once I left, I wished for the heat and hated
cooler temperatures.
Barnacles June 9th, 2008, 09:03 PM

I think how it cools you has less to do with temperature than it does the density. The way I look at it is that the water that your body excreets is fairly warm, but also 20x
denser than air. Water transfers heat much better, this is why 50 degree air does not burn like 50 degree water, so what it is doing is blowing the hot water off of you and
replacing it with Air that transfers the heat less effeciently.
tranquillity June 9th, 2008, 09:19 PM

The way the body cools is the heat of vaporisation of water (sweat) on the skin. It takes energy to turn liquid water into a gas and that energy comes from the body and is
removed at the water floats away as steam. Also at a particular temperature the air can only hold so much steam and you will find localised around your body an area of
higher humidity than the rest of the air preventing, slightly, further evaporation and cooling. The fan keeps dry air around the body as the steam is carried away faster and thus
you can evaporate sweat more quickly.
There would be a point where blowing hotter air onto you from, say, a furnace would do more heating than cooling but it would be above the capacity sweat has to remove
heat from the body.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Joining the French Foreign Legion
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I have decided that I want to have a purpose in life, while experiencing some excitement. I would wish to join the Foreign legion and was wondering what you think of it and if
you have had any experience with them.
TreverSlyFox June 10th, 2008, 01:02 AM

Hmmm, nothing first hand but I did have a friend that joined in the 1970's and some of his stories would make your hair stand on end. Recruits are the dregs of society from
all over the world, usually running from the law and this is their last stop. Discipline was harsh to say the least and brutial would be a better word for it. Officers are French and
the Legion does the dirty work that French forces can't touch.
Living conditions were spartan, the latrines filthy and the chow normal for military food. Equipment wasn't too bad but not the latest issue, if you survived the training you were
one tough SOB. If you survived your enlistment you were given a French passport and citizenship in a new name.
He survived and lives somewhere outside of Paris the last I heard but that was over 20 years ago. He was a tough SOB in the first place as an Airborne Ranger with a tour in
Nam behind him already and a Bar fight that ended bad sent him to the Legion.
Tough way to go just to learn French.

When I was in 2/75th Ranger Batt. one of the guys who was diagnosed with a mental illness left our unit to join the French Foreign Legion. He was getting discharged for his
illness (schizophrenia or something) and then he got in trouble with the law. He left before he was arrested. This may sound like some crazy silly story, but its true.
The night before he left, a few of us had some drinks with him. He told us pretty much what trever said. You'll be serving with some tough guys, but they're all criminals. Many
of your missions will be ridiculous and will probably get you killed, or so he told us. So if you don't value your life and like to live in shitty conditions, go for it. The fact that I
would be working for the French is enough alone to deter me from even thinking about joining. Besides, my wife would kill me ;)
tomu June 10th, 2008, 12:04 PM

Have a look at http://www.legion-recrute.com/en/ it will answer a lot of your questions.
And against common believe the legion etrangere will not take anyone, you will have to pass some test and if you manage to get accepted you will have a period of
qualifiying. Not only will you have to master physical fitness courses but also theoretical military, technical and french language courses and they teach you very well how to
iron your shirt and they stress this quite bit.
You will get basic training in France and abroad in Africa and in the french osverseas departments like french guiana. It will be tough and is certainly not for the faint of heart
but you will be rewarded with one of the best military trainings you can get.
And in stead of being just a big mouthin' fart who will start crying when some raghead starts shooting at you you will fight back and not start crying for mama and a coke.
Have fun and do it at least give it a try!

I read up on them and it's supposed to be a five year term. And the "elite" unit in this elite unit is the 2nd Foreign Parachute Regiment. (The first tried to assassinate the
president at the time, after they felt betrayed when France pulled out of Algeria)

Last I was reading about the Legion, their accepting of criminals is pretty much a thing of the past (although at one time it was definitely the case). Supposedly they do an
extensive background investigation now to weed out undesireables. Although if one is fleeing from minor legal problems, I doubt that would be discoverable to them. But why
join the Legion just to flee from minor legal difficulties?
Apparently a LOT of legionaires are fleeing from domestic situations (psycho wife whom one for whatever reason does not want to divorce, for example) and the Legion does
facilitate and even encourage these types of recruits.
Also, the legion will give enlistees a false identity, but will not allow you to sign up as "John Smith". They need to know who you really are.
Finally, they act like the ultimate prize is to become a French citizen, like that is desireable or something......:p

Apparently they still do, but its the excitement and adventure I want. They pay me about 24K Euros a year. (not that great) I get free lodging, food and transport.
condor_b75 June 10th, 2008, 10:08 PM

Contrary to the popular belief the Legion does not accept criminals any longer apart from some minor offenses. Todays Legion is a relatively small force and they can choose
who they let in. Things like training, organization, punishments etc. are the same as in the rest of French military. The Legion of Marche Ou Creve (March Or Die) fame is pretty
much a thing of the past. Those days are long gone.
(The first tried to assassinate the president at the time, after they felt betrayed when France pulled out of Algeria)
It was the 1st Parachute Regiment that did that not the 2nd. During the war in Algeria
1e REP by Colonel Jeanpierre was probably one of the best airborne units of all time.
The_Duke June 10th, 2008, 10:39 PM

They pay me about 24K Euros a year. (not that great) I get free lodging, food and transport.
I thought the same way. But if the Legion is anything like the Canadian army, your "free lodging and food" will be coming off that 24K a year. Not to mention the taxes...
But then again, who really joins a professional army for the cash? :p
Its all about the adventure and especially about the combat. Hell, I'd do this job for free if I had to!

I have friends in the Canadian army. They are EXTREMELY well paid. I'm told a private can expect to make $80 000 dollars in Afghanistan. (Reg pay + Over seas + Hazard
Pay) Apparently the Canadian military is the best paid military in the world, trailing only the Australian military.
Hirudinea June 11th, 2008, 12:14 AM

Just remember the reason the Legion Etranger is the best in the French Army is because there are so few Frenchmen in it!
sbovisjb1 June 11th, 2008, 12:52 AM

Zing! :P But seriously I have started to brush up on my French and am buying a ticket to Paris, France.
megalomania June 11th, 2008, 03:29 AM

Anformula, so what you're saying is the elite FFL is mostly composed of men running away from women? Don't let the feminists hear you say that, you will give them ideas :D
hatal June 11th, 2008, 04:32 AM

I had a friend who served ten years in the legion. They mostly had too deal with settling "tribal-conflicts".
You can learn french very fast (if your life depends on it :)
You wont see too many places where you can spend your hard earned money. But there will be a few option: african-whores, having a drinky or gambling with your "friends".
Good Luck !

Well it seems like the FFL is being more selective from what people have been saying. Still, the fact that the guy I knew who was considered to have a mental problem went
to join leaves me a bit suspicious. I lost touch with him when he left, so I don't know if he actually made it through. I hope not... :D
If you're looking for adventure and combat, why not try out for your military special operations unit? I'm not sure what country your from, but usually enlisting with a special
ops contract is an option, at least in the United States. Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of luck.
JohnG June 11th, 2008, 10:34 AM

You wont see too many places where you can spend your hard earned money. But there will be a few option: african-whores, having a drinky or gambling with your "friends".
With the AIDS rates in several African countries over 25%, that is a game of russian roulette that I would not be willing to play. :eek:
Rbick June 11th, 2008, 12:57 PM

Russian Roulette with 2 bullets instead of 1! Whores are gross in general. I for one would never get a whore, its so degrading. Jacking off is much more appealing. Plus I got
married, so getting sex is pretty easy :D
You'll be too busy running around killing people and jumping out of airplanes to think about it anyway. Right?
Bugger June 11th, 2008, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by hatal: You wont see too many places where you can spend your hard earned money. But there will be a few option: african-whores, having a drinky or
gambling with your "friends".
With the AIDS rates in several African countries over 25%, that is a game of russian roulette that I would not be willing to play.
That all goes to show that soldiers do not only go to war - they also go to whore at the same time! I wonder how much U$ taxpayers' money, and more borrowed from the
Chinese, ends up in the brothels of Baghdad and Kabul, as well as being simply stolen by corrupt contractors and local government officials.
Also, with regard to men running away from domestic situations joining the French Foreign Legion - La Legion D'Etranger - who was it who recorded the song "If You Turn Me
Down Once More, I'll Join the French Foreign Legion" in the 1950s or 1960s? I think it may have been Frank Sinatra. There was also a novel and film called "Beau Geste",
about a Legionnaire, out at about the same time. Anyway, you would probably do better to become a mercenary, after doing your 5 years in the Legon, - see http://
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071026051941AAot5AH
Some years ago, I heard the story of an Englishman who decided, on a whim, probably inspired by "Beau Geste", to join the French Foreign Legion, and signed up for the usual
5 years. However, after a year or two, he had had enough, and simply could not carry on. So, that summer, when he was on furlough in the north of France, on the Bastille
Day holiday, 14th July, he illegally crossed the border into Belgium near the coast without going through Customs, discarded most of his clothes and identity documents, and
then went to the nearest British Consulate in Belgium to report that he had gone swimming at a beach near Ostend while allegedly visiting Belgium from England, and while
swimming had had his British passport and valuables stolen, and he requested a new passport and the ferry fare back to England from Ostend. Of course, after arriving back in
England, he was never able to visit France again, without the risk of being arrested by the French Military Pigs for desertion or being AWOL.
BTW How does a recruit get to become a NCO - Corporal, Sergeant, or Warrant Officer - in the French Foreign Legion? How are the Commissioned Officers (presumably initially
appointed as Lieutenants) selected and trained? Besides French Guiana, and some former French colonies in West Africa, where else in the world are Legionnaires still posted? I
wonder if there are any in Martinique, New Caledonia, Runion, Kerguelen, and French Polynesia?
Eh bien, bon voyage Paris!

From what I've read, all the NCO's are French (The legion was put under French army control after the assassination attempt in the 50's) About 10% are Foreign Legionaries
who rose up in the ranks.
condor_b75 June 12th, 2008, 12:42 AM

Wrong! Most of the time you will be bored out of your mind. Even in times of war ninety percent of your time is pure boredom and BS and the rest is stuff you joined up for.
BTW How does a recruit get to become a NCO - Corporal, Sergeant, or Warrant Officer - in the French Foreign Legion? How are the Commissioned Officers (presumably initially
appointed as Lieutenants) selected and trained? Besides French Guiana, and some former French colonies in West Africa, where else in the world are Legionnaires still posted? I
wonder if there are any in Martinique, New Caledonia, Runion, Kerguelen, and French Polynesia?
Just like any other military after a few years if you meet the requirements and if somebody thinks you should be a NCO they go ahead promote you. What follows is some
schooling and you become a NCO. In the Legion it takes three years to make corporal, after few more years to make sergeant etc. IOT become an officer you have to be a
French citizen, go through academy with no guarantees to be posted back to the Legion.
The Legion is posted pretty much anywhere where France has any interest (former colonies, UN deployments etc.). I remember watching some stuff years ago about the
Legion and they were in some places you mentioned. I don't know if that is the case any longer.
From what I've read, all the NCO's are French (The legion was put under French army control after the assassination attempt in the 50's) About 10% are Foreign Legionaries
who rose up in the ranks.
You read wrong. All officers are French (IOT to be an officer you have to be a French citizen/legionnaires are foreigners). NCOs however come from the enlisted ranks. The
Legion was always part of the French Army or its colonial troops. After the coup in Algeria it was almost disbanded but the French citizens decided against it so it was reduced in
size, some units were disbanded (1st Parachute Regiment) and it never got to play the same role it did during its time in Algeria. After leaving its home (Algeria) the old Legion
died. Don't get me wrong, the Legion is still a fine unit, just not what it used to be.

Wrong! Most of the time you will be bored out of your mind. Even in times of war ninety percent of your time is pure boredom and BS and the rest is stuff you joined up for.
I was more being sarcastic, but yeah. Damn the lack of expression inherent with text communications! ;)
When you say you have to be a French citizen to be an officer, does that mean you can become a French citizen after living there X number of years and then becoming an
officer?

When your contract is up and you decide to get out you are eligible to apply for French citizenship.
joffe June 16th, 2008, 02:43 PM

Of course, after arriving back in England, he was never able to visit France again, without the risk of being arrested by the French Military Pigs for desertion or being AWOL.
That's a thing of the past. Nowadays, If you desert, they usually just throw away your papers. Which can be a really shitty thing if you're in some god-forsaken place of the
world without your passport.
BTW How does a recruit get to become a NCO
To become an NCO, you first have to attend the corporal's course, which used to be four months long (I don't know how long it is these days). If you don't attend the
sergeant's course later, you'll remain a corporal for the rest of you career in the Legion. You might eventually be promoted to Caporal-chef or Senior corporal, which is roughly
equivalent to the lowest rank of sergeant. Your career in the Legion will probably be a squad leader and/or drill instructor at one of the farms. If you attend the sergeant's
course later, you'll become an NCO. The highest rank you may reach is "Major" - roughly equivalent to a Regimental Sergeant Major. If you really show promise, they may
send you to the Military Academy for officer training, but don't count on it. Roughly 10 percent of the officer corps in the Legion used to be of non-French origin. Don't know
how it is nowadays.
So a bit of advice to sbovisj1 (probably the best piece of advice you've ever received). Don't go!!! (You'll probably not heed my advice, but at least I've cleared my conscience
and warned you). But if you still want to go, stay away from 3me REI, jungle warfare really sucks. 2me REP also sucks pretty much. Headquarters duty is usually good.

But if you still want to go, stay away from 3me REI, jungle warfare really sucks. 2me REP also sucks pretty much. Headquarters duty is usually good.
Why join if you don't want to do anything?:rolleyes:
joffe June 19th, 2008, 01:42 PM

Well, not joining would be the wise thing to do. But if he still decides to go, why pick the units in the Legion that suck the most? Well, I'm sure 3me REI would be great for
someone who loves guarding French rocket launch sites in French Guyana. But I've been told that their jungle warfare course is arguably the toughest in the world. 2me REI is
great if you feel really macho - well, the Legion is macho, but 2me REI is the ephitome of macho. There are plenty of other units to choose from - 9 other regiments, if I
remember correctly. All of them elite units by any standards.

I guess it all depends on one's goals. If one was looking for the best training, discipline, espirit de corps in the case of the Legion I would go for the 2nd REP or 3rd REI. Believe
it or not, a lot of people want to be in the suck no matter how you cut it military service is tough in any serious unit. You will be hungry, cold/hot, eaten alive by all kinds of
insects, bored out of your mind - and all that just to do fun stuff (and stuff is just a small part of the whole deal).

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Thought police snatch kiddies.
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Hirudinea June 11th, 2008, 12:22 AM

Here is an article that will show you just how far we have gone down the road of P.C. insanity
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080609/national/nazi_child_seizures_1
The upshot is that the government can now take away your kids if they don't like your politics, shocking. The visitations for Freedom in Canada will be held from 12-3 and 5-9
today and tomorrow and the burial will be on friday at noon, in leu of flowers keep the money and buy yourself a gun!
hatal June 11th, 2008, 04:43 AM

"There were concerns regarding drug and alcohol use."
Yeah lets throw some dirt, in case we cant prove anything. In fact all NS-'s are junkies :P
P.S.: Don't (ever) forget Big Brother loves you!
Thorald June 11th, 2008, 03:53 PM

I read about this [And commented on it.] over at Stormfront.
Just because the political beliefs that they choose to have, differ from the masses and are now socially unacceptable due to the Holocaust TM, it does not mean that their
children should be taken away from them.
Yes, whilst drawing on a child is unacceptable, seizing the children and making an emphasis on the fact their parents are White Supremacists should not be undertaken until a
proper and thorough investigation has been carried out...
And in this case it seems confiscating the children was undertaken, whilst a thorough investigation was not...
It's tough for me to imagine parents who are preaching sort of a neo-Nazi philosophy to also be providing a safe, nurturing environment for their child. This is a philosophy that
talks about hate, talks about much of the world being a dangerous place...
Just because someones politics are "full of hate" it does not mean the child cannot be cared for properly and 'correctly'. Although drawing on a child general indicates lack of
care and neglect.
thelasttrueone June 11th, 2008, 04:00 PM

It may not be safe to assume that the parents were the artists

In Manitoba, the Caucasian population is declining, while the Native is exploding. If they went to school with those writings, they could have been stabbed (I'm serious) I know
people in Manitoba that have been beaten by members of the NS (Native Syndicate) just for their wallet or they looked at them funny.

Nowhere in the article did it say that the parents had drawn on their children. I have seen some people with writing on themselves, part of the Emo craze hitting the country.
sbovisjb1 - While what you say has some merit, it is not the responsibility of the minority (the Caucasians) to censor themselves for the comfort of the untermensch. Just like
you would blame a Caucasian for stabbing a nigger with a black pride t-shirt, a nigger should be blamed for stabbing a Caucasian.
I know people in Manitoba that have been beaten by members of the NS (Native Syndicate) just for their wallet or they looked at them funny.
Like any gangs around the world, if you challenge their authority by looking at them funny, then you will get bashed, regardless of their race. It just shows the level of
intelligence of their members that would bash someone for a wallet. I'm not advocating remaining silent, but only a fool wears their heart for all to see (literally).
There is a time and a place for everything. Writing racial slogans at a school for all to see in certainly not that time or place.
Hirudinea - While I am saddened at that article, I am not really shocked. Some of the self righteous bullshit that police spout is unbelievable, but because of their position of
"authority" almost everyone believes them! It's like Aristotole saying that everything is made up of 5 elements and almost everyone accepts it because he was a fantastic
philosopher.
crazywhiteguy June 12th, 2008, 02:08 AM

I am interested to see who did write the things on the children. If it were the children themselves, then it would be a crime to punish the parents. If it were the parents then it
would not be justified to arrest them but I would understand that they would be put under investigation. I would also change my opinion if I knew what was written on the
children. If it was something along the lines of "I don't like niggers" or "white power" then it would be fine to investigate. If it were something that could be loosely tied to
Nazism like "SS Save us" or "pride among us" then I would call harsh shenanigans.
Hirudinea June 12th, 2008, 09:10 PM

Nowhere in the article did it say that the parents had drawn on their children. I have seen some people with writing on themselves,
There is a time and a place for everything. Writing racial slogans at a school for all to see in certainly not that time or place.
I believe the article said the children were 7 & 2, and if the 7 year old saw a swastika on TV and drew it on herself in all innocence, which is probably the case, I would hardly
think this is a case where the government hould be invloved.
Hirudinea - While I am saddened at that article, I am not really shocked. Some of the self righteous bullshit that police spout is unbelievable, but because of their position of
"authority" almost everyone believes them!
The tradegy is that I wasn't shocked by the article either, angered, saddened and incensed, but not shocked, that is the way the country has been heading for a long time, and
the people are too cowed to do anything about it, and thats what makes me the saddest.
megalomania June 13th, 2008, 03:13 PM

The irony of this is, the doo-gooders and the fedgov are acting the same way the Nazis did when they were in power. Criminalize everything offensive, burn all the books we
don't like, you must think this way, dress that way, act the way we want you to.
They don't realize what a slippery slope any form of social censorship is. Sure, nobody has a problem shutting up the neo-nazis and the KKK, so they accept this. Then we
have to shut up those radicals protesting at political campaigns, well they are kinda annoying. Naturally beer and cigarettes are bad for you, so we should ban those. Red meat
is bad for you, so is cake/candy/icecream/cookies/pie/pop/friedfood/tapwater/corn/potatoes/ and heterosexual intercourse... Then before you know it we have the
government sponsoring programs to encourage your children and utility workers to report unamerican activities and terrorism.
Oh, don't we already have that last one? :)

These people are all peace, love, and tolerance man, until you say or do something they don't agree with.
Jacks Complete June 16th, 2008, 04:12 PM

These people are all peace, love, and tolerance man, until you say or do something they don't agree with.And that is when the law should come to the aid of the minority,
rather than herd them into death camps. Indeed, you could argue that the whole point of the government (as an entity, including the police and all) was to be the biggest
gang, and to be the cooler head in any conflict, and to protect all equally.
That some groups - women, police, blacks, gays, whatever - get special treatment is wrong and divisive. All should be equal before the law. In the same way, terrorists, or
rather "terrorism suspects" should be treated exactly the same as innocent people, until they are found guilty in a proper court of law.
This is to my mind fundamental. I believe it was to the US Founding Fathers. "One people, under God", iirc.

The irony of this is, the doo-gooders and the fedgov are acting the same way the Nazis did when they were in power.
They don't realize what a slippery slope any form of social censorship is.
I disagree, its not that the people don't know what a slippery slope censorship is and that they're acting like nazis, the fact is that these people DO know what a slippery slope
censorship is and they ARE nazis. When it comes to society there are two types of people, one type who are comfortable with people enjoying their own lives and freedoms, as
long as their own aren't curtailed, and people who thing that they know how everyone should live and that it is their duty to bend the world, however unwilling it may be, to
their will and wishses, those people are the nazis, the communists, the dictators, the human rights commissions and every bureaucrat with to high an opinion of himself, and by
saying they are doing these things for our own good they steal our freedoms bit by bit, until they take away peoples kids for because the parents political opinions disagree
with the "revealed truth" know only to them.
These people are all peace, love, and tolerance man, until you say or do something they don't agree with.
Of course, because they have the exclusive patent on the truth, and if you disagree with them your a fascist, rascist, [insert label here] and must be destroyed for the good of
the world.
That some groups - women, police, blacks, gays, whatever - get special treatment is wrong and divisive. All should be equal before the law.
All men are NOT created equal, but should be treated EQUALLY, with equality of opertunity, NOT equality of outcome. Damn I wish I could put that on a plaque. ;)
Sure, nobody has a problem shutting up the neo-nazis and the KKK, so they accept this.
And thats the problem, you can hate a persons politics, and fight them tooth and nail, but if you curtail their freedoms that gives somebody the precedent to curtail yours (and
their is always someone who wants to curtail your freedoms!) Assholes and lunitics, and the freedom to be assholes and lunitics are the markers of the boundries of all our
freedoms, and should be chreished as such.
Secong Nature July 23rd, 2008, 03:38 AM

Of couse something funny/sad is that if a guy in a KKK suit, conehead and all walks down the street, saying or doing nothing he will be immediatly killed/beat up/arrested.
Put a black guy, dressed like a nigger in a Black Pride shirt yelling 'Wut Nigga Yeah' he will be left alone, without a single person yelling at him for being a racist pigfucker like
they would at a white racist.
Hirudinea July 23rd, 2008, 08:16 PM

Of couse something funny/sad is that if a guy in a KKK suit, conehead and all walks down the street, saying or doing nothing he will be immediatly killed/beat up/arrested.
Put a black guy, dressed like a nigger in a Black Pride shirt yelling 'Wut Nigga Yeah' he will be left alone, without a single person yelling at him for being a racist pigfucker like
they would at a white racist.
Well most powerful liberals are self-loathing WASPs so what do you expect, they hate themselves so they hate anyone who loves the white race and love anyone who hates it.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > High School Graduation
R e s e m bles Saddam's Rise to Power
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View Full Version : High School Graduation Resembles Saddam's Rise to Power

W e h a v e a l l s e e n t h e v i d e o s o f S a d d a m H u s s e i n b e c o m ing the dictator o f I r a q . A n u m b e r o f p e o p l e , m a n y o f w h o m h a d b e e n
his close friends, sat in a room that resem bled a court room. A list of nam e s w a s m a d e b y S a d d a m , and th e n a m es were
called of the men who were to be executed right outside. The room was silent, an d t h e r e w a s f e a r a n d s a d n e s s i n e v e r y o n e s
e y e s . I f s o m e o n e s p o k e o u t o f l i n e o r a g a i n s t h i m , t h e y w e n t o n t h e l i s t t o o . E v e n S a d d a m h i m s e l f w a s s e e n s h e d d ing a few
t e a r s f o r t h e m e n h e h a d p e r s o n a l l y p u t t o d e a th for the reason of m ere suspicion.
This was the feeling I got when I read this article (http://www.foxnews.com /story/0,2933,365461,00.htm l). The piggies are o ver
step ping their bounds everywhere these days. Just read the article to see how these young people had their rights violated like
a drunk girl getting raped in the bar bathroom stall. Som ething about ho w they conducted this just scream s "POLICE STATE!".
Now these people have crim inal records for cheering on loved on es at a public cerem ony. W ow... Let m e know what you think or
about any other stories involving the rape of Am erican's rights.

W hat an absolute jok e. Arrested for ch eering?! You are correct: Police State on it's way.
Did you see the last paragraph? Five students whose fam ilies cheered for them had to do com m unity service before they
received their diplom as!! Nothing like getting punished for the actions of others.

I honestly doubt the girl was raped. Drunk and made a mistake is the most probable answer. The girl crying rape is a too often
happenstance in this continent.

sbovisjb1:
W hat? I am g u e s s i n g that you didn't read the article: there is no girl, no drunkenness, no rape. Rbick was simply using that as
an analogy.

Yes, but details like that are often not stated. Just saying. I'm playing the devils advocate.

I thought about that as well, and its a good point. My first inclination was that the cops were just being assholes, bu t the me dia
of course is always leaving out details as a way to bend the story in their favor. This I know.
After further thinking about the situation, I thought that perhaps simply removing the individuals from the crowd and kicking
them outside would b e sufficient. Disorderly conduct seems pushing it a bit. Mayb e if they were scream i n g o b s c e n i t i e s a n d
throwing food it would m a k e s e n s e t h a t they would arrest and ch arge them . If it was in fact "like a funeral" and the one
individual only gave a few whoops and clapping , then th ere is definitely something wrong with the behavior of the police. This
isn't the first time that things like this have happened, which is why I brought it to attention.
Charles Owlen Picket June 12th, 2008, 10:52 AM

.... but the m edia of course is always leaving out details as a wa y to bend the sto ry in their favor.....
That's the biggest problem with analogous refe rences using the "news" a s a m e d i u m f o r o n e ' s p r e m ise. I understand where
you're going 100%; the problem is that we have distorted "if it bleeds; it leads" ambiguity.
I try to get m o r e t h a n o n e s o u r c e e l e m ent for the conclusion, therefore I don't have to worry that the idiots in the copy room
e m bellished or omitted factors that lead to the ridiculou s actions. But let's say for the m o m ent that there were substantiating
stories (it's likely true, in any event).....Public Schools a re out of control and dumbed down to maintain statistics for further
funding.
As a n adult, you've seen what we have to contend with today in-so-far as high school grad uates in America's Public schools.
The students are barely functional. They are NOT on par with those of Europe or Asia. That's a problem that creeps steadily
back to the Teacher's Union.
W hen we see a zealous over-reaction on the part of the Adm inistration, we are saddened, stunned , & disgusted. I would
suggest that if you have an in terest, you check out this link:
http://www.deliberatedum b i n g d o w n . c o m / p a g e s / b o o k . h t m
T h e b o o k , I b e l i e v e , i s f r e e a n d i t m akes for in tense reading for anyone concerned with what will take place in the n ear future
due to our faulty school system . I t m a y m a k e s o m e of you VERY upset. However your original point that the over control, the
reactionary n ature of the Administration is disgusting. (IMO) it's sim ply a natural progression from letting the little darlings
control their learning environm ent. If they knew everything they think they knew, there would be no need for further learning.
If th eir parents actually did their job, there would be no need for schools to attem pt to "parent" both parties. This is a "loose-
loose" situation. I believe this has been slowly brought about by the "em powerm ent"-m o v e m e n t .
Look at this Forum fo r instance. We are actually parenting in a unique sense the blatherin g of imm ature idiots who would ha rm
themselves, their com m unity, & reduce even fu rther the freedom s we have to experiment with high energy science or related
topics. We are almost forced into that role due to the very nature of the subject a s well as the self-obsesse d "me-first" attitude
o f s o m eone who wants what he wants, when he wants it. .....Use a Search engine? Fuck that! Tell m e h o w t o m a k e C 4 o u t o f
blea ch. U se a Search engine? Fuck tha t! Tell me how to pose as a "snipe r" while I m asturbate in front of the computer.
W hile over-regulation and reactionary diminishm ent of self expression is a very real problem atic factor, we are pushed into
that position by forces that m a y n o t h a v e e x i s t e d w i t h s u c h d e p t h s o m e m any years back. The issue is quite wide. It's
horizons; far reaching.
Lewis June 13th, 2008, 02:21 AM

I honestly doubt the girl was raped. Drunk and made a mistake is the most probable answer. The girl crying rape is a too often
happenstance in this continent.
Yes, but details like that are often not stated. Just saying. I'm playing the devils advocate.
W hat in god's name are you talking about? haha
:p
armchairsapper June 14th, 2008, 03:43 AM

W ow.. C harles I couldn't have said it better myself! I'm fairly young, 28, even so.. I see k ids a couple years younger who have
b e e n c o d d l e d a n d n o t t a u g h t a n y t h i n g i n s c h o o l except what is wrong with this country. It m a k e s m e sick. T he failure of the
public schools to teach is very worrisom e for m e e v e n t h o u g h I ' m not a p arent. W hat ever happened to critical thinking? O r
bein g taught to think rather than what to believe? Anyway.. I'll get off m y s o a p b o x n o w .
Rbick; You're right. I can't help but think "Police State" when reading that article.
Jacks Complete June 16th, 2008, 02:57 PM

A s s o m eone living in a police state (the UK) you have m y sym pathy.
C o m pare this story to the one a b o v e :
A card-carrying mem ber of the Labour party is at the pa rty confe rence. He has, of course, like everyone else, been searched
and vetted before being allowed in, de s p i t e b e i n g a p e n s i o n e r . T h e P r i m e M i n i s t e r is giving a spee ch, and tells a lie . The m a n
heckles the PM. He is then roughly ejected by security staff and handed to police, who detain him as a suspected te rrorist! The
heckle? He shouted "R ubbish!" once. :mad:
This shit is everywhere now. For a very erudite article on what has happened in the last ten years o f Labour party rule, read this
article:
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/41929,opinion,why-david-davis-is-a-hero
a n d t h e n b e t h a n k f u l t h a t y o u guys ha ve a written constitution that people have actually h eard of.

@ Jacks Com plete:
I a m very thankful.
I h a v e r e a d w i t h b o t h f a s c i n a t i o n a n d s a d n e s s f o r s o m e m any years now what you have written about the U K. I also know that
there are those within the U K who love their country with the sam e p a s s i o n t h a t s o m e in the U SA do theirs. What's more I ca n
easily understand the frustration of seeing all this m ess & believing it to be unsolvable.
W e face m any problem s together as do our brothers in AUS & NZ. As I grow older one of the most com pelling is that we live
with a m arke ting driven society (as opposed to a "m arket-driven" society). W e swallow the pap & P a b l u m that the com mercial
world feeds us; written as it is, for a 13 year old mentality. W hat's m ore I believe that those who seek an easy answer are not
only fooling themselves but are easy pray for Totalitarian political directions.
The same people who actually believe that such things as totalitarian dictatorships would be a better choice would also fall prey
to the m arketing hype that declares th at drinking a specific beer would m a k e y o u m ore glam ourou s & desirable to the opposite
sex.
TheSavageHyena June 17th, 2008, 07:22 PM

I m ust agree with Charles on this matter. More frequently are we witnessing these actions taken by police. In Canada we enjoy
t h e s a m e a m o u n t o f f r e e d o m a s t h a t o f a c a g e d b i r d . S o m uch potential and so close, but we m ay never be able to truly
spre ad our wings.
It is sad to see that unlawful police action usua lly goes uncontested at the tim e o f the offence. How can the public contest
police actions without being subjected to bias m e d i a , a n d f a l s e t e s t i m o n y ?
It is unfortunate that we m ust feel so powerless, where in an event of great happiness, one cannot show that that expression
of raw em otion. I only hope that the frequency of these actions decrease , however without proper intervention why would they
stop ? I m e a n , C a n a d a h a s g o ne far enough to restrict handguns, when will the governm ent ever reverse those laws without
proper intervention?
I n d e e d t h e n e w b r e e d o f c o n s u m ers, are willing to give up their God given rights for a few false promises and 'security'. It's
s m a ll instances as these (the article) which allo w government to gage their power. It's like scoring with a girl. You gotta test the
waters before you go in for the kill.

Like MANY fo lks here I have listened to people like Alex Jones and other less strident individuals who believe that some vast
conspiracy exists to a lter the world in a m anner that suites them or allows profit o r exploitation. I also can see the reason why
m any would think this a possibility. On a certain level this may even be possible (on certain econom ic levels & within certain
m arkets); in software , for instance.
However when people start to grow older and especially travel to distant places, econom i e s , a n d s e e t h e v a s t e l e m e nts that
m ust be in tune with the m usic to dance that special dance.....th e reality hits hom e. The world is too vast and too m a r g i n a l i z e d
to allow for a secret g roup of m en & women to capture the souls of those outside the scop e of their marketing arena to allow
that manipulation to take place.
W h a t i s s e e n b y s o m e i s a c o r r e l a t i o n b e t w e e n a g e n d a s t h a t m a k e s s e n s e i n t h e l i g h t o f a n a t t e m pt to gather power via a

high er agenda. But it's not as easy as some would fearfully believe. W e have laws that restrict firearms & other weapons
because it's easier to "attack" an inanimate object than hum an behaviour.....It's really that sim ple . That does NO T m e a n t h a t
I like the ide a or agree with those stupid attem pts to control behaviour via controlling an object! ...Far from it. But I believe
that we have unfortunately seen many diverse people com e up with the same sim p l e s o l u t i o n s t o c o m p l e x p r o b l e m s .
As o il prices rise we will be squeezed into a recession or eventua lly a dep ression by those countries that have an agenda with
capturing the US/W estern m arket in various forms. This is not one group . Logic shows us that it just cannot be so. However
when agendas interact or are auto-contributory, it may SEEM like s o m e vast conspiracy exists simply because the groups ARE
diverse.
W hen I was a little boy and first heard about the concept of atomic theory I thought that the solar system resem ble d a
m olecule and that solar system s t h e m s e l v e s a r e e x a m p l e s o f m olecular structure on a m assive scale. I thought this idea ve ry
original, until another little boy said that he "thought that too". I was crushed. I thought I had som ething SO original.....but I
was wrong. O ther peo ple often think in sim ilar ways.
No individual has EVER shown me proof that the Jewish dentist in Douglas Arizona (Dr. Pearlman) is involved in som e s u p e r
secret Star-C h a m b e r o r g a n i z a t i o n t o d o m inate the world and enslave ma nkind. Nor has anyone shown m e proof that Country
Club conservatives ca n control m uch m ore than their specific empires coincide with. Bohem ian Grove m eetings simply don't
have the man power from the vast sources of econom ic influence to do so. (W hen Alex Jones first introduced this id ea the first
thing that cam e to mind when I looked at the "List" was that virtually NO mem bers represented Asia......oooops!). I am rapidly
l o o s i n g m y interest in conspiracies. Not only does the concept seem child ish; but illogical!
IF a conspira cy exists, it is a conspiracy of hedonism , consumerism , & lack of motivation on the part of those who could
contribute to society in a positive m anner. If a conspiracy exists, it is a conspiracy of those who would look for the easy road to
achievem ent. ......W hether that be a p olitical office or a pathetic feeling of self im portance; the results are still minuscule
compared to what could have been accomplished.

I recently realized that if there were so me sort of global conspiracy it would most likely be not what people expect, but it may
appear that way.
I recently thought to m yself that if there were a conspiracy in place it would be one that would force a globa l "Caste" system ,
but a more divisive and polar one than the hindu caste system . It would basically consist of two le vels, rich and not rich. I
think the global conglomerate of rich elite people and corporatio ns have realized as the scientists have that we are consum ing
reso urces faster than they are being replenished. So the Rich people wanting to preserve their future perfect lifestyle, start a
chain of events on earth that will eventually m a k e c o n s u m erism obsolete except for the extrem ely wealthy thus slowing down
the rate of consumption to a level the earth can sustain indefinitely. They basically NEED to make the world poor to sustain
their lifestyle s indefin itely. But they are doing it to protect us from ourselves though, and for being so nice they get to live lives
where everything is palatial.
Secong Nature July 25th, 20 08, 03:2 8 AM

It's a global trend that I link to growing population. Many asain countries have moved there already.
Control the population, protect them from them selves, restrict their m ind s and the population won't collapse under its own
weig ht.
I m a g i n e w h a t would happen if people in China suddenly wanted free though? It would go past a SHTF scenario.
By k eeping a population in a controlled state it won't tear itself apart and take you with it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Odd fertilizer worked for AN?
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View Full Version : Odd fertilizer worked for AN?
LtChicken June 14th, 2008, 09:18 PM

I went to the hardware store and looker for AN fertilizer, and the closest thing they had in stock was 36-0-4. I bought some and read about it and found a method to purify
normal AN, and I tried that method with my fertilizer.
First I poured a good amount of the fertilizer into hot but not boiling water. The white prills dissolved out of the fertilizer but the other objects did not. I let it sit for about 15
minutes and I filtered the solution to get the crap out of it. All of the objects that didn't dissolve were filtered out successfully and I was left with a clear solution. I boiled this
solution for some time and then I let it cool in the room temp. air for 10 minutes then put it in the freezer. It began to crystallize and when it was cool I sorted it and strained it
on paper towels, replacing the towels when they were soaked completely until the white crystals were dry.
What I have now are white crystals which I hope are relatively pure AN, but I'm not sure.
I did UTFSE and I even googled it, but to no avail. I couldnt find anything about trying to purify AN that was not 34-0-0 or 33-0-0.
If you want more details, I can give them, I.E. the specific look of the material in the fertilizer, or even what it says on the bag. I appreciate any help.

Perhaps you should have a look for the MSDS of whatever fertiliser you used?
See, those numbers represent what % the fertiliser is in terms of Nitrogen - Potassium - Phosphorous/Phosphates (aka - NKP). Hence, I would assume that your fertiliser was
36% Nitrogen (in the form of AN or perhaps Urea), 0% Potassium and 4% phosphates (possibly in the form of Ammonium Phosphate).
Ammonium Phosphate is soluble in water - Bad for you (if that is what it was).
You have no idea how pure it is, or even what you have. A little common sense and research would have led you to the same conclusion that I have reached.
The next step would be to look at the properties of Ammonium Nitrate (melting point, solubility, enthalpy of solution) and perhaps doing some experiments to determine if
what you have is a) Ammonium Nitrate and b) how pure your AN is (if that is what you have).
You say that you used the search engine, and perhaps you did. Next time, try and think about it as opposed to searching for spoon feeding instructions.
You thought train should go something like this ->
"Hmmm, 36-0-4. That sort of looks like 34-0-0. I wonder if it is the same. Perhaps those numbers mean something and I know that almost every chemical sold should have
an MSDS telling me what is in it."
Investigate.
"Well, those numbers mean NKP. That means what I have has lots of nitrogen and a little bit of phosphates. I have no idea what that nitrogen is, it might not be Ammonium
Nitrate. I could/couldn't find the MSDS but I wonder if there is a way I can find out what it is. It looks like 34-0-0 so perhaps it is?"
Investigates properties of Ammonium Nitrate.
"Look at that, it has almost the same properties that Ammonium Nitrate has, where as Urea doesn't really do (insert experimental results). I'm pretty sure I have AN. Now, can
I purify it easily, and if not, do I need to purify it?"
Investigate what the other compound could be.
Conclusion.
As opposed to ->
ZOMG! I found some stuff that has numbers like AN! I wonder if someone has written instructions on extracting this! NO!!!!! They haven't! Better go ask for some help from The
Forum, and start a new thread in the Watercooler (so they don't ban me!) about something that has been talked about Ad Nauseam.
Only reason you aren't toast yet is because you posted this in the Watercooler.

Alexires beat me to the punch. Both the spoon and razor were floating in my head; one to feed & one to bleed. Honestly, all this info is here.....it's right here. You just have to
use that damn "Search" button. Perhaps some of you reading this right now have some trouble doing that because you lack a certain aptitude in the actual USE of such a thing.
This is NOT a put-down. I am being very positive and well meaning here....
You have a subject but it's generalized like the above example. So you actually try to do the right thing. You type in "Ammonium nitrate" and get a million hits. You get
discouraged so you try a post in the Water Cooler.....WAIT! Your subject contained some specifics and that will get you to your valuable info.
Instead of Searching for "Ammonium Nitrate", try the specifics of what you want to understand..... You saw numeric information, you thought about extraction, You are dealing
with fertilizer, you are attempting to isolate & identify.
So NARROW that Search by EXPANDING the criteria! Try "Nitrogen, Potassium, Phosphorous (NKP), Extraction, Fertilizer, MSDS, Ammonium Nitrate". No hits? Narrow by the
least specific to topic. No hits? Try again. Two hits. Look at the thread. Expand another Search by what THAT thread deals with that coincides with what you want to know.
Start wide THEN narrow.
This board is gigabytes of information. Even in the unlikely event that IT doesn't have the info that you need it will bring you to the internet link that does (within reason).
There have been some subjects that have yet to be discussed in depth. But if YOU believe that your subject has someone here who could answer that question; in all
likelihood, it's been discussed.
The REASON why there is such a reaction to this Search issue is that it is a sign of intellectual laziness. Intellectual laziness will get you or someone hurt. Explosives, weapons,
energetic materials, Chemistry, Physics, theoretical mathematics, etc are all serious, potentially dangerous subjects. There is really no place for intellectual laziness (at ALL; in
my opinion). This breeds the childish experimentation*..... - that is best left to the awakening wonder of adolescent sexuality, rather than something that might harm or bring
legal repercussions.
* This is what is known as a "Kewl" or "K3wL" (kool) n. slang. A (generally) younger person who believe what he does has merit, especially to his peers, is intellectually lazy,
practices high ascii elite-speak (or text-speak) to emphasize his unique status. He displays hedonism, adolescent tyranny toward his family, malignant narcissism, & often has a
very short attention span.
"The KewL stored his (carelessly made) TATP in an improper environment, resulting in an injury." "D00d, that AP wuz fukd. B1Ack D3aTH made ultrak3wlshit."
Definition - Kewl
LtChicken June 15th, 2008, 05:29 PM

Alexires - Like I said, I do have more details if I didn't supply enough information in my post, which is now evident.
The bag says:
1.18% Ammoniacal Nitrogen

34.82% Urea Nitrogen
4% Soluble Potash
Right there it says only 1.18% Ammoniacal Nitrogen, which I'm guessing means only 1.18% AN? I'm not exactly sure.
Potash has a reddish color and the only red colored objects in the fertilizer are few and far between. Do you think I could take them out by hand and extract the AN from that
instead? When I put the fertilizer straight into the hot water and filtered it, I noticed none of the rock objects actually dissolved.
A property of ammonium nitrate is to make water really cold when it touches it, correct? I took a spoonful of the white crystals I came up with earlier and poured some water
into it. The water dramatically decreased in temperature. I know for a fact this is a property of ammonium nitrate but I'm still not confident in that test alone. I've looked
through the internet for various tests to check the purify of ammonium nitrate but they all involved chemicals that I don't have access to. Remember I couldn't even get 34-0-0
fertilizer.
When I used the search engine I did actually scan through 5 pages of material, looking at several different post archives, one of which someone asked the exact same question
as mine but the archive ended without the persons question being answered.
It was this thread :
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=2194&highlight=fertilizer
Maybe the answer to my question is in a thread like that, but maybe I don't know what I'm looking for anyways? At the very least a little direction would be helpful.
Alexires June 15th, 2008, 10:03 PM

Well, I was going to waste some time typing out a post to help you, but in light of your recent stupidity, I don't think I am going to bother.
Your answer is right there. On the bag. Used in conjunction with the posts that both Charles and myself made, you have a wealth of knowledge that would allow you to solve
your problem.
Instead, you decide to come back here and ask for another serving of spoonfeeding. Like giving a bum 20c to get an (alleged) bus ticket in the hopes that he will go away and
because it is painful to see someone so lacking, you find him at the same spot the next day, asking again.
Charles and I have given you all the answers you require, yet here you are again, asking for another spoonfeeding. Only this time, you shall find razors as opposed to the
spoon.

(MAN)What I cannot grasp is how someone sees these numbers:
34.82% Urea Nitrogen
1.18% Ammonical Nitrogen
4% Soluble Potash
They proceed to search on the basis of the material at hand being ammonium nitrate.
At this point it would almost be impossible to talk further without spoon feeding because this is beyond obviousness and derision.
Sorry to join in on the poking.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > What NOT To Do
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I found a couple videos of people killing themselves or hurting themselves. While they are hilarious in a sense, I think its good for people here to see what happens if you don't
treat pyrotechnics and explosives with the RESPECT they deserve. Of course I would like to see other videos that people have found. I also know how people like to watch
videos of people getting fucked up, so this makes a place where it is easy to find videos of that nature.
If you don't have videos, typing out a description of an accident you had or something you saw would be great too. I have yet to hurt myself, and plan on never doing so by
being safe. The worse I have done was almost got blown up by ANFO after I started a field on fire and I dropped a bottle of 98% SA on my basement floor. Wife wasn't too
happy about that one...
The top video was taken in Iraq of some insurgents planting an IED. You can see towards the end of the video that the guy starts tugging on the charge in an attempt to move
it, or something. You can guess what happens next.
This video (http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/?action=view&current=Jihadist_Trainees.flv) is my favorite

Stupid terrorist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM595QX5iV4&feature=related)
AP accident, ouch... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtdtvsngxbY)
Dumb ass... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?amp=&feature=related&v=_rX0bL-TGuQ)
The_Duke June 17th, 2008, 08:35 PM

There are already a few threads just like this one. If I have time later I'll merge this one with one of them.
Kaydon June 17th, 2008, 10:43 PM

I don't have the link but if you want something seriously sick.. Watch the BME Pain Olympics video.. that involves a hatchet and someone's manhood. I suppose you could
categorize it under what not to do with a tool.
It's been around a lot, but there's also the Iraqi that fires a rifle and the recoil sets him on his ass.
sbovisjb1 June 18th, 2008, 01:21 AM

There is a lot of disgusting shock material out there. I was at a get-together in the country a while back and 3/4 of the people for a time discussed all the shock sites they
know and have seen (what else can they do:rolleyes:) They showed everyone a video of a horse (called 2 guys 1 horse) doing God knows what to a mans backside. To say
the least the man crumpled and apparently died at a later date.
ChippedHammer June 18th, 2008, 07:16 AM

Yes, poor Mr Hands got more than he bargained for when he 'approached' that hoarse :)

Yeah wasn't something like that on the news? The guy died from a ruptured rectum after getting "f'ed" in the "a" by a horse. What a way to go... What would you say at the
funeral if you were his wife or something? Awkward...
I found this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8tprAIQFCE) on youtube. Couldn't you find a better way to kill yourself? Its a good example of what not to do.

Earth is a bitch when your on 30,000 odd volts of potential :)
NUKE(slo) June 20th, 2008, 04:53 PM

Here's an example of what NOT to do with AP:
Few years ago I detected some pretty interesting story in the newspaper at the time of the New Year.
Two teenagers were hammering IIRC few kilograms (yes your vision is correct) of acetone peroxide into metal pipes...
I guess you can all predict the result of this extreme stupidity. :rolleyes:
Emil June 23rd, 2008, 01:44 PM

They skipped off into the sunset and lived happily ever after :confused::D
On a serious note though, there is some very deep effects of watching/reading/viewing the accident related media. It is by far one of the biggest reality checks you will come
across and really puts you in perspective of the nature of things we deal with. It makes you feel kind of weird knowing that one little mistake and you could be in serious
trouble, just from the innocent appareance of a powder/liquid. At the same time, it does really prepare you for the handling of these sorts of things. It is safe to say that one
goes into an automatic safe mode when handling with the chemicals, as it almost becomes a second nature.
I do like viewing the shock material from time to time, but also hate it just as much. It really shouldn't put you off of the hobby, but just make you think more. Given respect,
we are dealing with a relitivley safe game. Personal safety measures play a BIG part, along with the ever so more rare common sense. Put it this way, more people will be
killed from a simple object like a knife, than explosives will ever kill.. just as long as a nuclear war doesn't break out ;)
Nickth3great June 30th, 2008, 02:03 AM

Here's an example of what NOT to do with AP:
I guess you can all predict the result of this extreme stupidity. :rolleyes:
To me that 'almost' seems too stupid and sounds too much like an urban ledgend to be true. Most people conduct a small hammer test after making AP for the first time and I
don't see how anyone, after conducting such a test, could do something so stupid as to try to force a large amount of AP into a pipe with a hammer.
Thankfully, I've never had a serious accident with any explosives or their chemical precursors. I have had 1 close call over the past 5 or so years since I started this hobby. It
involved a flash charge of about 1oz that had a fuse that burned faster then I had expected. Fortunately, all that I received from this close call was a slight ringing in my ears
that lasted a few minutes. The first time I synthesized some HMTD I did a hammer test with a very small amount and found it was quite a bit louder then AP. Once again, all I
had to suffer though was a couple of minutes of ringing in my ear. I did suffer a very painful cut once making improvised electronic detonators from steel wool, it seems one
should only try to use steel wool in this manner when wearing really tough work gloves. Hopefully I never fall victim to a major mishap, my biggest fear is LEO, rats, and
chemical fumes. I do use a gas mask when dealing with any kind of acids or liquid oxidizers, but having suffered from a spontaneous pneumothorax not too long ago,
hazardous fumes still trouble my thoughts. (for any of you that smoke, you might wanna consider quiting hint hint)
Don't underestimate stupidity, remember that kid who made piles of AP and had them drying under heat lamps? He turned himself into a pink cloud.
And ditto the steel wool, never try to pull it apart with bare hands!
Mr Science June 30th, 2008, 03:51 AM

Don't underestimate stupidity, remember that kid who made piles of AP and had them drying under heat lamps? He turned himself into a pink cloud.
http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=50849#post50849
Here is the post/thread for any who are curious.

Phone always makes me cringe. Seriously, how stupid can you be?
Then again, I've seen a video of a dude that sticks a firecracker between his teeth. :D Hell dude, if you need to have teeth removed, go to a dentist or something....
Chipped Hammer - Bet the drug fucked idiot had a rush like never before. :rolleyes:

Yeah, the phone incident makes me cringe too, and pisses me off. That was the first time I've read his last post. He was warned several times NOT to do what he was doing.
Doing k3wl things will result in dying a k3wl death. Granted, he was only 15 BUT if you think you are old enough to be involved in this hobby, you should be old enough to
treat dangerous shit with respect.
Between his teeth? Are you serious? Do you have a link to the video? :D

Found these on Youtube
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ga0qLYktxIc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EtfNPMZUgHw
http://youtube.com/watch?v=X15v6D2jk6A (looks to be the worst)

I don't have the link.. but anyone remember that kid that stuck a blasting cap in his mouth, and bit down? Blew his teeth into his brain or something. Idiocy.

Kaydon: We actually looked at that in EMT class. It has actually happened to a few people, by accident in most cases. What happened in one of the situations was the guy was
in the military and was rigging a charge for demo purposes. He stuck it in his mouth so he could use both hands before inserting the cap. BOOM! It blew his face off, literally.
Nose, teeth, and mouth gone. He was able to breath out of the hole created in his face, as his trachea was still in tact to just above the epiglottis. Needless to say, he needed
massive re constructive surgery, but turned out ok. Had a bit more luck than the guy who got his teeth implanted in his brain :p I'll see if I can't find some pics.
Chipperhammer: Thanks for the links :cool:
Barnacles June 30th, 2008, 06:08 PM

How about this total redneck loser who shoots himself in the head with a flare gun for fun from point blank. Man is stupidity ever ominpresent in this world.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=drOnHOid5qA
For some reason it made me think of this guy who made a post here a while ago, totally unrelated, but it highlights how dumb some people can be. The guy wanted
acetylene, he goes to the hardware store and finds a bottle of MAPP. He wants acetlyene and reads a label that says " methy acetylene propadiene stablized" and somehow
thinks its a good idea to buy because it is acetylene:rolleyes:
You would think someone who wants to get into energetics and chemistry would have a bit more common sense than to think because it contains the word acetylene it must
be the gas he is looking for. and he actually bought the bottle!!!. man I was actually stunned when I read this, I was like wtf are people thinking when they do stuff like this. I
hope I don't get in trouble for being slightly offensive here. But I was dumbfounded when i read this.
Link to the post


Just after the Vietnam conflict there were a series of "studies" done with prior inductees and those who volunteered. These studies are very reveling. Young men who are
combat bound (11B) were asked what made them afraid. Most responded (in a written anonymous format) that getting killed was NOT #1 on the list. Pain suffering and
continued disability / deformity took the first place ticket.
I have found that when someone mentions something "asinine beyond belief" on this Forum; if they are answered with the possibility of loosing body parts, etc.....that has an
enormous impact. Energetic materials, whether they be electrical energy mechanical/kinetic, or chemical have a self-correcting mechanism, in that when one actually KNOWS
that they may have to learn to type or masturbate with the other hand or that they may not be able to masturbate with a stump very well at all; that has a profound affect on
their circumspection regarding this pastime.....
I searched for the thread about everyone's worst accident but could not find it.....It had some very apt lessons learned.
Rbick July 1st, 2008, 09:36 AM

Charles, I looked for that thread too, and couldn't find it. That is the reason I started this one. Do you think it got deleted?
I added that flare gun video to my youtube favorites. The man is obviously drunk and a dumb ass, never a good combination.
I think I may have saved someones life. Scanning through youtube, I found a 300g AP pipe bomb video. 300g is crazy, but in a pipe bomb is just ridiculous. The guy also
mentioned that he was planning on making a 1kg AP charge in his info! The "Phone" incident popped into my head and I quickly sent him a PM. Due to several of his youtube
buddies nagging him on with comments like "d00d that wuz fuking sweeet! Yeah make a 1kg one! that w00d be 1337!", I thought my efforts would be in vain.
I explained how dangerous AP is and what happened to our friend Phone. I made sure to go into detail that his buddies watched him get turned into a pink mist right before
their eyes and how silly making that much AP is. I explained this to him kindly and without hostility. Today he PMed me thanking me for my advice and decided NOT to make
the 1kg charge. I told him I would be sending him some information so he could practice energetics safely.
So while he is a n00b, at least he won't be a dead one. Everyone has to start out somewhere, but its up to people like us to make sure they don't blow themselves up, which
only brings more attention to us. So anyway, I'm gonna start of list of "n00bs lives saved" and see how many I can get ;)
Heres a cool video of people getting owned. It has good examples of what NOT to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJaCNwP3nZ8
And heres a cool vid of a deer getting owned. I hate deer...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip1ko8HwRpo
Nickth3great July 2nd, 2008, 01:45 AM

I think I may have saved someones life. Scanning through youtube, I found a 300g AP pipe bomb video. 300g is crazy, but in a pipe bomb is just ridiculous. The guy also
mentioned that he was planning on making a 1kg AP charge in his info! The "Phone" incident popped into my head and I quickly sent him a PM. Due to several of his youtube
buddies nagging him on with comments like "d00d that wuz fuking sweeet! Yeah make a 1kg one! that w00d be 1337!", I thought my efforts would be in vain.
Oh you've seen that video as well; the one with the kid blowing up a doll with threaded steel pipes full of AP? (I assume that has got to be the one) I also thought what he
was doing was insane. There's also a couple of other videos of people engaging in comparably stupid activities. The one with the minikeg with a couple 100grams of HMTD is a
good one as well.
Makes me think of a kid that was mentioned here back when I first joined. Apparently the kid had the bright idea of trying to break the world record for most AP manufactured
by one person in one day.(or at least it seemed that was his motive) I think the only reward this person can now, properly, receive is the Darwin award. If I'm not mistaken
most of this kids house ended up being leveled, and I'm sure what remained of him helped feed some biological hazard cleanup specialists family. Anyway I forget just how
much of the stuff he was producing, but I heard he had numerous gallon jugs of acid and h202 around his house for his project.
ChippedHammer July 2nd, 2008, 04:16 AM

I know the one, where he rolls the thing around in his hand.
300g of AP in a pipe is just insane, no other words for it.
Charles Owlen Picket July 2nd, 2008, 10:08 AM

I deeply believe that when someone speaks to moderation and explains why...they may actually save a life. Energetic materials is actually NOT is a small population hobby.
But the percentage of people who REALLY study, read, experiment, record and approach it from a near professional perspective is a very rare thing.
Because of both legal and social issues, this is something done privately and generally, in rather sublime moderation. Kids do some seriously stupid crap, but it's actually NOT
kids that have been some of the deeper hobbyists. And the the serious fellows don't cause a fuss because they have figured out how to experiment safely and quietly.
Quite a long time ago, you could go to a PGII convention and meet people who were into energetics via "code wording" like "bursting charge alteration", etc. But now it's just
too much of a chance that you'll get a nut-fuck & get in trouble; especially at Gun Shows. If there is ONE PLACE NEVER to share one's interest, it's there. In fact I've pretty
much completely stopped going to those things. If it's not some cop wanting to enhance his arrest percentile, it's some whack-job spitting in my ear about secret societies, tin-
foil hats, the dollar bill and microchips under his skin.
The only thing under any skin is him under mine.....
Dear Lord, some pray for rain, others pray for Your guidance; I only ask for brain cells for the cell-poor and cell-needy.
NUKE(slo) July 2nd, 2008, 07:57 PM

Well if you thought 300g is crazy...
The amounts he used raised up almost exponentially.

7grams,150grams,1.5kg
Looks like he's taking a phone's path.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HDEXPqls1U&feature=related
ChippedHammer July 3rd, 2008, 10:36 AM

With all of the time and money he wasted on making the AP he could have sat down, learnt a thing or two and made something much safer. I would be scared shitless that the
weight of all of that AP would cause it to self detonate.
Rbick July 3rd, 2008, 10:51 AM

Dear lord! 2kg of AP is as wrong as two boys fucking! :eek: Its a lot of AP and it isn't even that powerful (obvious from the video footage), but just enough to really mess up
your day.
Poor phone. I wish we had a video of that to show to people. Shock videos are usually enough to scare the shit out of people to stop and think about what they're doing.
Here is another video. The guy was fine, but inches away from a brutal mauling. Do NOT shoot an 800 pound animal point blank, unless you're crazy, or a redneck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BknKR5mOF3U
Kaydon July 4th, 2008, 01:51 AM

I'm a redneck.
Although, I just would've gone for the head. Hell with trophy huntin', food is all that's of concern.
Zait July 6th, 2008, 10:02 PM

Might you be referring to the incident in Texas City in 2006?
http://news.galvestondailynews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=62af594cdf40c3db
Rbick July 7th, 2008, 12:54 PM

From the article:
Those same authorities insist he and a friend injured in the blast were not associated with any terrorist group domestic or otherwise.
That word contradicted TV news reports attributed to unnamed, highly placed federal sources that said the pair might be members of a four-person domestic terrorist group.
Does this surprise anyone? The news will take ANY incident they can and make it seem like terrorism as long as it benefits their liberal, leftist propaganda. "Highly placed
federal sources"? I smell bullshit... They obviously made that one up. What the hell is their obsession with the word "Terrorist"? Why don't they call those faggots from PETA or
ALF (Animal Liberation Front) Terrorists? They bomb research buildings, steal, lie, threaten peoples' lives, and cheat to further their political agenda. In every sense of the word,
they are terrorists! But people who harmlessly study energetics (such as us at the forum here) are automatically labeled "terrorists".
So these kids making explosives for fun, while they did so stupidly, are terrorists, but the people killing our men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan are only "freedom
fighters". This world is so fucked up. I want to take a baseball bat to Dan Rather's face.
I love this country, and although I don't always like the decisions our leaders make, I will defend it and our constitution. However, if things continue on the current trend, there
won't be much of a country to defend, as everything is becoming so divided. I'll be on the side fighting for our God given rights and the rights promised by our founding fathers
in the constitution.
DO NOT: Believe everything the media tells you, but do your own research! This is not to say you can't watch the news, but take it with a grain of salt. See their story, then
cross reference and get varying opinions. :cool: Ok, I'll get off the soap box now...
NUKE(slo) July 8th, 2008, 08:54 PM

@Zait
No, I was referring to some online/newspaper news here in Slovenia some time ago.
Damn I really hate when they mark experimenters,researchers as terrorists.
Intrinsic July 8th, 2008, 09:49 PM

Rbick & Charles:
The worst accident thread you were looking for a few days ago:
I believe the forum search engine doesn't actually search the water cooler, hence a search that way may not have found it.

Thanks for the thread Intrinsic :)
Here is another good one I found. Look at his hand at 50 seconds, its nasty. Don't mix aluminum, charcoal, and AP, EVER.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtdtvsngxbY&NR=1

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W hat a bastard!
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http://www.news.com .au/story/0,23599,23898134-23109,00.htm l
A TEENAGER h a s b e e n j a i l e d f o r p o s s e s s i n g a g u n a f t e r h i s f a t h e r h a n d e d h i m i n t o p o l i c e w h e n h e f o u n d t h e w e a p o n a n d
bullets in his hom e............... Paul Metcalfe, 19, of Nelson, in Lancashire , was jailed for th ree years after his father, Neil, 45,
turned him o ver to the authorities.
W hat a utter prick, why would you do that to your own son?
W hats even is m ore fucked is possession of a firearm yields a m inim u m s e n t e n c e o f 5 y e a r s , d a m n the U K is m ore fucked
than I thought.
" A l t h o u g h I ' m s c a r e d o f g o i n g t o p r i s o n , I f e e l d a d s a v e d m e," he was quoted as saying. "I was angry with him at the tim e .
Now I know why he did it and respect h im for it. I'd got in with the wrong crowd."
I'm sure his attitude will change after 3 years o f prison, I would be out for blood personally.
I probably shouldn't read the news, I get too pissed off when I see things like where a group of niggers rob a 6yr old girl and
nearly beat the father to death in front of his kid when he confronts them (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,2 3 8 9 1 3 6 5 -
2,00.html), and shit like this doesn't h elp either.
W ell that's m y rant for a while.
-=HeX=- June 20th, 2008, 11:37 AM

W ow. What a bastard is right. Well at least the son did not try to shoot it out, because he would not have lasted lon g. And if he
did shoot it out, the governm ent would have just used it as an e xcuse to put yet m ore draconian laws in place.
Emil June 20th, 2008, 12:43 PM

I a m exactly the sam e, reading the news and finding out about som e of the sick things that go on , just m a k e s m e incredibly
angry. Especially things like the 6 year old girl being robbed, and idiots beating her father. It usually revolves around
s o m ething like a bunch of low life scum of the earth, pikey chavs, beating some innocent person nearly to death. It m a k e s m e
disgusted to hear some of the things people do.
Personally I think tha t 19 year old lad's dad should watch out, because If I was the son, I would go mad when I actually got
out of jail. That really takes som e m oronic parent to do something like that. It sometim e s m a k e s y o u w o n d e r w h a t i s g o i n g
through these people s heads??
Charles Owlen Picket June 21st, 2008, 10:35 AM

I have no idea what prisons are like in the UK. I know a bit about them in the USA. They are either Gladiator Schools or
Centers for Higher Pa thology & Criminal Learning. If there are sim ilarities.....the kid will go to Gladiator School. EVERYONE gets
a warm welcome.
NO ONE....No t the tou ghest meanest individual; if they are not h o o k e d u p , c o m es away from their Freshman days unbowed.
I have no interest in talking about this subject at length. However there is no person of any background, or any race,
nationality, or creed who does not get very seriously scared. The re is really no way around it unless you have very serious
m oney available and can buy protectio n from the strongest STG (security threat g roup) an d you better choose correctly the first
tim e o u t o r y o u w a s t e d a L O T o f m o n e y.
If you are yo ung and not connected or poor you will be giving a lot of m essages (hand-jobs, blow-jobs) to several individuals
and doing their laund ry as well as giving up whatever you own. Butt-fucking is a punishment detail; happen s from correction:
not frequent. Having to jack-o ff a bunch of idiots after getting all of your teeth knocked out or being threatened is very
stan dard. Do NOT expect you "Aryan" brothers to save you....that's almost laughable.....No.... it -=IS=- lau g h a b l e !
If you don't have real m oney, THEY will be the recipients of the blow-jobs, all the while telling you how you are a "warrior" for
the "cause". Eventually you believe that there IS a "cause" because that's the only way you can intellectualize a belly full of
s e m en from "your brothers". You will b e "played" until there is som eone who owns you or you get away from the control
s e g m ent of general population.
It's NO T a question of fighting to show "heart" or any such shit. It's a m o n e y m a k i n g s y s t e m and it's for every-fucking-one. No
m atter how strong and tough you are, you are NO m atch for six people in a narrow hallway. Period; no discussion, you lost!
Most young inm ates do much or their tim e in PC cells because it's better to go a bit nuts than to be m a d e n u t s . M o d e r n
facilities have a Prote ctive Custody wing that is generally one quarter of the population holding num ber!. That's S.O.P. - not
uniq ue. The worst are "Private " prisons, as they have very little health care due to cost cutting so your teeth rot out and your
boo-boos get infected very ba dly & very quickly. Their is also a VERY high level of HIV, TB & Hepititus. Most all inm a t e s g e t s
t h e m a f t e r s o m e years. - MO ST ALL.
"You can't be disillusioned if you don't have illusions in the first place".......
W hat that "father" did was m orally wrong - as there are always a lternatives to putting som eone who has not harm e d a n o t h e r -
in the "system ".
sbovisjb1 June 21st, 2008, 06:20 PM

And thats why you bulk up and take steroids (to quickly bulk up) If you know that you most likely will be going to prison. Being
s o m eones sex slave (or everyones) is not fun.
Happy Hindu June 21st, 2008, 08:38 PM

I bet the father just thought that his son would get the gun confiscated a nd a slap on the wrist and turned him in without
knowing the tim e that the kid would face.
Alexires June 22nd, 2008, 12:49 AM
I bet the father just thought that his son would get the gun confiscated a nd a slap on the wrist and turned him in without
knowing the tim e that the kid would face.
Then his father is a fuck nut for not actually knowing wh at the fu ck he wa s d o i n g . H e h a d a n e m o t i o n a l r e s p o n s e w h ich ended
up with him calling the police. Regardless of wh y he did it, the result is still the sa me: A 19 year old that may or ma y not have
been hanging with the "wrong" crowd is going to spend the next 3 years eating cu m and sucking cock because his father didn't
have the brains, balls or blood loyalty to confro nt his so n about it.
At least "Pau l" (the 19 year old) might have a chance to learn som ething in the "institution" from m ore experienced crim s.
T h e n a g a i n , I d o n ' t t h i n k h e i s g o i n g t o b e l o o k i n g o n t h e b r i g h t s i d e w h e n h e h a s a m outh full of cock.
That m a k e s m e a b s o lutely sick. If anyone has any doubts that Orwell's prophetic work, 1984, is going to come true, the need
t o l o o k n o f u rther tha n this thread. Children handing their parents in for thought crimes, a dults handing their children in for
possession: A very dangerous and close similarity that is.
A note to all: Grow the balls and do it yourself. If you do not have the strength, g uile, intelligence or ingenuity to do it yourself,
it doesn't deserve to be done. The strong will p revail, and the m eek will inherit nothing. A lone wolf am o n g t h e s h e e p i s w h a t
w e a r e , n o t s o m e m o l l y c o d d l i n g s h e e p a m o n g s t t h e w a lking m utton.
TheSavageHyena June 22nd, 2008, 01:50 AM

W ell said Charles and Alexires. It's very unfortunate that the m ajority doesn't share the sam e sentim ent that we do . And the
w a y t h e m e d i a h a s e n c o m p a s s e d f i r e a r m s in the negative light shows on its viewers.
T o d a y I m e n tioned the word 'gun' after reading another disturbing article

http://www.torontosun.com /Ne w s / T o r o n t o A n d G T A / 2 0 0 8 / 0 6 / 2 1 / 5 9 4 4 3 8 1 - s u n . h t m l
and one co-worker of mine actually refused to even HEAR the word gun. It's as if I told her to bang her dad. I asked her to
read a few studies ba s e d o n f i r e a r m s a n d s h e r e f u s e d t o e v e n c o n s i d e r e x p l o r i n g t h a t a v e n u e . I w a s o f f e n d e d t o s a y t h e l e a s t .
Every asshat I showed that article to, failed to see anything wrong with it. They all agreed that it was a well written piece and it
served our com munity for the better. They also want police to be m ore 'diligent' in their agendas.
C a n a d i a n s a r e l o s i n g m o r e f r e e d o m s e v e r y d a y . D o n ' t b e l i e v e m e? Here is one that will m ake you cry out of laughter and
s a d n e s s h t t p ://healthzone.ca/health/article/435158
I d o n ' t e v e n s m oke and this gets me boiling. How can one live with these things and not do so m uch as qu estion its
legitim acy? I believe critical th inking in this nation is at its final m o m e n t s .
I will be laughing whe n we finally get invaded and everyone will wonder why we don't have guns to protect ourselves, or even
cigarettes to cope with the burden of watching our families get raped.
Alexires June 22nd, 2008, 04:00 AM

I love that la st article:
I'll take five m inutes to look for cigarettes and a line will build up, people will start stealing.
And that is so true. O ften, people will steal, not because they need whatever they are stealing, but because they can't be
bothered waiting for the perso n t o s t o p j a c k a s s i n g a r o u n d a n d s e r v e t h e m .
Hirudinea June 23rd, 2008, 07:11 PM

I will be laughing whe n we finally get invaded and everyone will wonder why we don't have guns to protect ourselves, or even
cigarettes to cope with the burden of watching our families get raped.
W rong, peop le will be saying, "O h why dosn't the governm ent protect us!" because the goverment is not only taking away our
right to protect ourselves but even our instinct to, they'll m a k e u s all m in d l e s s d r o n e s y e t .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C omedy legend dies at 71.
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Kaydon June 23rd, 2008, 03:31 AM

http://news.yahoo.com /s/nm / 2 0 0 8 0 6 2 3 / u s _ n m /carlin_dc
Truly depressing, I loved Carlins comedy and o pinions. One of the few comedians I respect.
festergrump June 23rd, 2008, 05:42 AM

I enjoyed his com edy too, and SOME of his opinions, but not all. He was way too far left for m e.
He was witty, though, being able to pull things right off the top of his head and m a k e m e crack up. O n e e x a m ple was when I
saw him appear on the Leno show. After his tim e was up Jay brought out Ann C oulter as his next g u e s t . C a r l i n s t o o d u p a n d
w h e n h e s h o o k h e r h a n d h e s a i d , " I n e v e r t h o u g h t I w o u l d h a v e t o m ove over to the RIGHT when YOU cam e out!". Beer shot
from m y nose at that instant! (m aybe you just had to see it, though. :)).
It's always a tragedy when som eone truly funny dies. So many com e d i a n s can hardly mak e m e crack a sm ile anym ore...
I still mourn John Candy, Chris Farley, and Mitch Hedberg. Now GC... :(
Aristocles June 23rd, 2008, 06:58 PM

D a m n...
Festergrump, I com pletely agree, re: his politics.
M a n y y e a r s a g o , t o o m any years ago... I wrote him a 'fan' letter and he replied with a hand written n o t e a n d a p e r s o n a l i z e d
autographed picture. Always adm ired that...

There are R EASONS why m any comedians are greater or lesser to the Left. The idea of jokes/skits inducing laughter lends
i t s e l f t o m a n y a g e n d a s t h a t e m brace new conceptualizations or poke fun at established ones...
T h e R i g h t i s t h e e s t a b l i s h e d o rder for the m ost part; a comm ercialized establishe d order. It m ay b e friendly, safe, convenient,
familiar but it is established order and with that is pathos. It is a great target for com e d y a n d h a s b e e n s i n c e t h e t i m e o f t h e
ancient Greek philosophers.
It m a k e s d a m n g o o d s e n s e t h a t c o m e dians (although not all) are Leftists. The Framer's of our Constitution MEANT there to be
dissenting opinion. They meant for there to be comedians to poke fun at the established order. That is what MAKES freedom .
There is a very im portant place for dissenting opinion. I m ay not agree with som e opinions but it's vital for free m e n t o h a v e
t h e m . I m agine what our world would be like with no room for other opinions or ideas oppo sing the established order of things.
That is what people like Alex Jones is dearly afraid of. I m y not share his opinion of the "New World Order" crowd but the
concept is a frightening one.
REAL freedom is comfortable with opposing points of view. I m ay not like s o m e people's view on som e issu es but it's vital that
there be room for som e other view on things than a single perspective. That is SUPPOSEDLY what we fight and die for.....the
right of m e n t o t h i n k a s t h e y c h o o s e . W HOEVER would take that away; Right or Left, is actually the enem y of freedo m. It's
m ature political thought that sees that concept and does not adhere to o ne shoe being the correct fit for all.....and that is th e
paradox in which we attem pt to m ake with our Bill of Rights.
IriOfTheSnow June 25th, 2008, 03:42 AM

Q u o t e d f r o m G e o r g e C arlin him self:
"It is the duty of the com edian to find out where the line is and cross it d eliberately."
I know, in my heart, that his soul is still out there.
Stuck. On a roof.
For the rest of eternity.
Just like a frisbee.
Kaydon July 1st, 2008, 10:03 PM

The fact is.. he was funny. Funnier than most e ver will b e , a n d a r o u n d l o n g e r t h a n a n y o f t h e m . Y o u ' l l n e v e r know who Dane
Cook is in a couple years. Carlin is a h o u s e h o l d n a m e !

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > eBay and Chlorates...
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Pb_Canadian June 24th, 2008, 03:10 AM

A f t e r a b o u t 2 y e a r s o f s e a r c h i n g f o r a b e t t e r a l t e r n a t i v e f o r c h l o r a t e m a n u f a c t u r e , r a t h e r t h a n c a r b o n r o d s , I ve f inally fou n d
a s u pplier. Unlucky for me this supplier runs out of the sketchy eBay and out of the US.
T h i s p e r s o n s e l l s a n a s s o r t m e nt of item s directly related to chlorate/perchlorate m a n u f a c t u r e ; M M O e l e c t r o d e s , P l a t i n u m

electrodes, d ichrom ates, titanium cathodes, as well as the direct chemica l s t o m a k e f l a s h c o m positions.
S a d l y , b e i n g u n l i c e n s e d a n d u n d e r a g e o r d e r i n g a n y o f t h e s e i t e m s c a n b r i n g u p p o t e n t i a l p r o b l e m s . I m l o o k i n g f o r som e
opin ions on whether I should try ordering these, or if anyone has had any luck trying to get this so rt of thin g across the border.
I ve b e e n a b l e t o o r d e r a n d r e c e i v e h i g h - q u a l i t y a l u m inum without any trouble from e B a y ( a l t h o u g h I m p r o b a b l y o n T h e L i s t),

a n d f u s e f r o m a UK supplier.

You actually AR E on the List. If you bought any Al via Ebay, they GAVE those purchases up without being asked as g o o d
citizens and continue to do so.
But that really doesn't matter. The List is clum sy & really not accessed to any deg ree. It simply exists.
Are you looking for opinions a s to whether to continue activities that place more items under your nam e a s t o s o m e one who
m ay have purchased materials related to activities (m o n i t o r e d p u r c h a s e s ) d e e m e d a source of threat.....If the purchases
involve Ebay; I say don't.
Ebay doesn't sim ply cooperate. That's not a big deal. .....Ebay m a k e s d e cisions a s to what is "questionable or reportable" and
takes proactive action.....that's really over the top. However electrodes would not do it (I don't think) but actual chem icals: n o
way!
I don't like Ebay. I don't want to support them . BUT what I would advise som eone NO T to buy is chemicals. The actual
electrodes and set-up stuff....if it's not obvious that it's directly m ade to m ake chlorates, I think there would not be any "note-
taking".
From what I was told, they volunteer nam es of people who they believe are involved in activities th at violate the law and are a
threat to the comm unity! That sounds pretty vicious for som e kid making chlorate in a tub. But if you or I bought anything
from them already that they thought was verbo tten, we have had our nam e s t u r n e d o v e r l o n g a g o .
You may hear a lot of opinions about Ebay.....that's generally all they are. However they ARE proactive in their interaction with
law enforcem ent and that's where innocent individuals g et caugh t up in a snare for "terrorists", etc.
ChippedHammer June 24th, 2008, 07:45 PM

I know the person you are talking about, nice seller. He has a website outside of eBay. I'll PM you.
eBay here is a bit better, I am fairly sure a court order is require d if someone (police) want details on purchases. But then
again, those are easier to get than a blow job on a Saturday night in the red light district.

I a l s o f o u n d s o m e Nitric on ebay (67.5 %) and I never d id order it. It was a 900ml bottle I believe, and a pretty decent price
(before shipping). Ho wever nitric acid has m any other uses than explosives so it probably won't raise too m any eyebrows.
However I doubt that statement more with every passing day. I am still debating the issue, and any opinions would be helpful
on the matter.
Pb_Canadian June 25th, 2008, 04:29 AM

TheSavageHyena,
Personally I would never even think about orde ring this stuff over the internet, especially eBay. Although it is a low
c o n c e n t r a t i o n a n d t h e y might let go t h r o u g h . Y o u d lik ly want to concen trate it, I m n o t a n e x p e r t b u t I t h i n k y o u d h a v e t o
vacuum distill the nitric acid in order to get it to a workable concentration, and a good setup costs $200+.
If you do decide to try ordering any, without it being snatched by the border, drop m e a p m .

Personally I would never even think about orde ring this stuff over the internet, especially eBay.
PB, as much as one can be paranoid in these horrible tim es we live in, there are only certain restrictions worth taking, otherwise
it makes living life alm ost im possible, if not very uncom fortable. I agree with you about eBay, but to say the W HOLE internet is
o u t o f b o u n d s is way over the top.
There is nothing wron g with using com panies via the internet to purchase chemicals or goods. Sim ply rem oving it from the
equation cuts off thousands of possibilities and routes. There's only so far you ca n go with the "being cautious" idea. Ok it
would be fair to say that infom ation over the internet is far m ore "available" than an order over the phone would be, but unless
the com pany you are ordering from is m aking an effort and handing your infomation over to authorities with a red ring around
it, you really have little to worry about.
It would seem the only m i s t a k e s t h a t h a v e b e e n m ade ordering over the internet spew from eBay, and in situations where
s o m e (complete) idio t has placed an obviously fishy order. Orde ring 10 gallons of Nitric acid and Sulfuric acid, 50kgs of AN and
25kg of Pentaeyrhtirol all from t h e s a m e c o m p a n y . T h i s w o u l d g e t y o u i n to the same trouble over the phone as it would over
the internet. I person ally can't believe that you do not use the internet to purchase any goods, m aybe your just from the USA
a n d p r o b a b l y h a v e 5 0 0 c h e m ical supply companies willing to help you???
T h e s a v a g e h yena: I would say do NOT buy nitric acid over eBay. Forget it. It's just to risky. They are going to look at it and
think, what u se does this average joe have for Nitric acid. Besides, like PB said, it would only have certain u s e s b e i n g u n d e r
70%. There are other ways to obtain nitric at th is concentration, without putting your ass on the line for LE to spank.

I was just looking out of curiosity, and wondered if that supplier can get m ore. He also advertised fuming NA and I m ust admit
I was tem pted, however the notoriety that com e s a l o n g w i t h e b a y p l a c e d m e i n d i s c o u r s e . T h a n k s f o r k e e p i n g a n e y e o u t
though. I agree with CO P when it com es to placing orders for eyebrow raising chem i c a l s . E b a y i s a n o - n o i n m y b o o k s a n d o n e
should avoid it to fend away o bvious suspicion.

For anyone interested in Nitric acid, I would really recom mend making it. Ok you have to invest in a distillation rig, and
p o s s i b l y a d d a v a c u u m source into your rig, but if you plan on m a k i n g a d e c e n t a m m ount, it's pretty much the only way to go.
I don't want to fall off topic here, but if m oney was tight, you could definately build your own custom rig, using easily availab le
stuff. Head over to th e nitric a cid synthesis section and read up for some m ore detail. Buying it is just too expensive, and in
m ost cases not possible.
T h e e a s e o f u s e o n e Bay is often a tem pting charecteristic. I m ean you can buy anything listed on there, usually with no
questions asked, and pay within 2 m in utes using paypa l. This is what tempts peo ple to want to use it, our lazy side tries to
shine. And it just isn't worth it. Let m e put it this way. Anything a vailable on eBay, is m ost definitely going to be ava ilable
elsewhere.
The UK and US eBay differs quite fairly. Type in "Pentaerythritol" or "Acetaldehyde" on ebay.co.uk.
Nothing right?
Then try it at ebay.com .
See what I m e a n ? ? T h i n g s y o u ' l l n e v e r s e e i n a m illion years on the UK site, happen to be all over the USA one. W eird huh.

There are actually two reasons why I'm p e r s o n a l l y , s o a d a m ant. The 1st is that I don't support (with m y dollar) places that d o
things that are so grotesque to m e politically that it's re pulsive.... (Ebay & Mcdonnals w/ firearm s, etc) and the 2nd is that I
actually have been to ld by a trusted source that they OFFER m aterial to LE agencies.
Law Enforcem ent eventually is a business like many, if you want to get promoted, you need to acquire "credit" to yo urself. This
is where it gets scary. The only arrests that "count" toward prom otion generally are Felony arrests. If a good case can be ma d e
t h a t t h e P R O SEC UTOR wants to go to trial with; you go to jail.
Do you know what has one of the highest conviction rates of all Federal arrests? Mail & wire related law breaking! Do y o u h a v e
ANY idea how com plex the laws related to interstate transportation & frau d a r e ? T h e " m a i l - c o p s " a r e s o m e o f t h e b e st educated
guys around and they don't know the "book" by heart! Buy glassware & live in Texas & I'll bet that BOTH parties will suffer.
I would be willing to bet that there are some people on this board who re m e m ber "The Letter" from the CPSC. An outfit that
USED the DEPT. of JUSTICE as a shill to scare the be-jesus out of those who made skyrockets. Most of their nam e s c a m e f r o m
one pyro com pany who got bu llied...but some of it......cam e from Ebay...voluntee ring to help! The CPSC got Justice to loan
them their stationary!!!!! The implications are incredible. "Hey, Bill; can I borrow your badge for a second? I just want to get a
free lunch."
T h e r e a r e s o m any id iosyncratic laws that som eone who "OFFERS U P" some poor slob will m ost likely get lucky & the poor fuck
will be guilty of some shit (like buying preserva tive without a lice nse to m anufacture poultry item s in the State of Ne braska). It
shows you how little the need for binding evidence is that such a conviction rate (on a Federal level) is related to m ail....and
the lowest is murder! The prosecutor needs mo untains of shit to want to hold over for pre-lim some jackass who kills, but watch
out if you do the Nigerian Princess scam !!!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Supreme Court Rules That Individuals Have Gun Right (5-4)
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Vitalis June 26th, 2008, 05:52 PM

It is great news for now, but I don't like the fact that it was such a close vote (5-4). It won't take much for the vote to be 5-4 against in the near future...

Your right, Supreme Courts aren't constrained by the rulings of previous Supreme Courts (they are a force unto themselves), and it seems that you will have a democratic
president in the coming year, so this could be changed. Also you have to remember as I said in another post licences aren't affected by this ruling so cities could simply make it
impossible to get a firearms licence.
Anformula June 27th, 2008, 01:47 AM

I would like to be happy about the outcome, and I am, but it is ominous at the same time...
What it tells us, is that 4 out of the 9 justices will gladly disregard the constitution and thus the principles and rights on which this country was founded, in order to further their
private left wing agendas. The question of whether or not the second ammendment was intended to be an individual right is ludicrous. Everyone, including Bader-Ginsberg,
knows damn well it was intended to protect the rights of individuals and to be the "option of last resort" against a tyrannical government. So we now know beyond any doubt
whatsoever that the dissenting justices are more than willing to place the constitution behind their personal left wing political agendas. That is truly terrifying, and it is terrifying
to realize how close we came to losing the right that is the basis of all of our other rights.... Those four can kiss my ass....I wish there was a way to boot them.
On the other hand, if past practice is any indication, it will be difficult for the supreme court (intentionally not capitalized) to revisit this issue any time soon. They have made a
basic interpretation of the constitution, and I believe this decision cannot be revisited unless there is a profound real (not political) reason to do so.
So that at least, is good news.

IF I am correct what was at issue was what constituted a militia. {Was the individual a indivisible component of a militia or was a body of men in concert with a given authority
a militia?}
We all (should) know exactly what the 2nd states. - It's a damn good debate. Imagine trying to take the opposing view?
Vitalis June 27th, 2008, 12:35 PM

I don't think it would be all that difficult for the supreme court to revisit this issue in the not so distant future. Think about it, all they need is extensive news coverage of some
horrible event like a school shooting and a few highly publicized lawsuits by the grieving families.
Within a decade we could lose this right and the bogus polls they show on the nightly news would indicate that the majority of the brainless population actually supports the
destruction of our Constitutional rights.

I suppose it "could" happen, but it would be highly irregular. When the supreme court rules on an issue, that is supposed to be the final word unless there is some dramatic
change in society that provides a compelling reason to look at it again.....
Maybe I am being ridiculously naive though.... After 4 or 8 years of Obama in the White House, who knows what might happen?
tmp June 27th, 2008, 02:19 PM

In order for the court to revisit the 2nd Amendment, there needs to be
another challenge to an existing law. How many of us would step up to the
plate ? That D.C. citizen certainly did and I'm sure at considerable legal
expense. This is what truly defines a principled person. This is what I liked
about Ronald Reagan so much. Politicians often have to horsetrade for what
they want but Reagan did little. Granted, in his later years after he left
office, and possibly attributed to his Alzheimer's disease, he softened his
stance on gun control. In office, even as victim, he didnt't bow to the
antigunners.
George The First helped the antigunners by resigning his NRA lifetime
membership I believe after Congressman Dingell, a Democrat no less,
referred to the ATF as "jackbooted thugs". This, IIRC, came on the heels
of the Ruby Ridge fiasco.
George The Second, despite all his problems, did gun owners a favor by
getting 2 conservative judges, Roberts and Alito, on the Supreme Court.
There is no question, and the vote proves it, that these 2 justices played
a pivotal role in the decision. No doubt, for good or ill, we'll feel their
influence on our rights as long as they live. If Obama, wins the White House,
let's hope the progun justices outlive his presidency.
Oh BTW, let's hope that Justice Alito lives an extremely long time. He doesn't
care for the law on machineguns either !
LibertyOrDeath June 28th, 2008, 01:03 AM

I think you're right that this decision doesn't create a binding precedent, but precedent still plays an important role in the US legal system.
I've skimmed over the text of the decision, and Scalia goes into some depth to answer the question of precedent: i.e., are there any past Supreme Court decisions that have
established a precedent that it would be improper for a current Supreme Court to overturn? He concludes:
We conclude that nothing in our precedents forecloses our adoption of the original understanding of the Second Amendment.
If a future Supreme Court tries to go faggot on us and overturn this decision, it will be a flagrant violation of legal precedent. I'm not saying it's impossible for such a thing to be
done, but it will be awkward for them to do it.
Of course most who post on this board aren't sheep: we need no one to tell us that we have the right to effective, modern weapons. We know we have that right just as much
as anyone who wears a badge or a uniform. But let's face it: unless you're some kind of underworld crime figure who has big time connections, good legal weapons are a lot
less hassle to buy than crappy illegal weapons. It's not that I feel constrained by the law; it's just that it's so much easier to buy guns in a gun store and order parts and ammo
over the Internet than to try to make risky underground deals for weapons and ammo of questionable quality.
As for how this decision might affect future gun laws, I don't see much change there. It's certainly likely that other highly-restrictive bans on weapons in some areas will be
relaxed, just as in D.C. The SC could have gone further, however, and emphasized the point that the Second Amendment isn't primarily about self-defense against common
criminals, but about waging a guerrilla war against a tyrannical government.
The way I see it, this decision shouldn't be viewed as a final victory, but as a huge relief. Just think of how many headaches we'd have if the court had ruled the other way!
We would have had to start buying up everything we could afford before new bans were passed, and then we might have even had to start thinking about using those guns
to...make a point.
shooter3 June 28th, 2008, 11:36 PM

Judge Scalia nailed it. He did a textual analysis of the whole amendment and contrast it with the absurd conclusions of Stevens and Ginsburg. The arguments are impeachable.
Keep in mind that the Bill of Rights is more of a warning track than anything else. There have been many grotesque desisions the past couple years, that literaly stole our
country (the real killer was the eminent domain case).
Let's keep it simple, "Death to Tyrants!" Thanks to this case, we definatly aren't there yet!
shooter3 June 28th, 2008, 11:54 PM

The decision and dissents; http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/07-2901.pdf
Nickth3great June 29th, 2008, 10:53 PM

Something I've wondered about for a long time is how most people in this country would embrace a system that allows the courts to pass judgment on the meaning of a law
numerous times, and yet at the same time are generally supportive of the 5th amendment. To me, it doesn't make any sense that people wouldn't want to give the courts
power to judge someone for any given crime more then once, while at the same time have little problem with the high court judging the meaning of a, 'written', law on more
then one occasion. It is in essence the same as saying "I don't care how you interpret or reinterpret the law, as long as you don't try to charge me for breaking any of those
laws more then once." :confused:

I think you're right that this decision doesn't create a binding precedent, but precedent still plays an important role in the US legal system.
I've skimmed over the text of the decision, and Scalia goes into some depth to answer the question of precedent: i.e., are there any past Supreme Court decisions that have
established a precedent that it would be improper for a current Supreme Court to overturn? He concludes:
If a future Supreme Court tries to go faggot on us and overturn this decision, it will be a flagrant violation of legal precedent. I'm not saying it's impossible for such a thing to be
done, but it will be awkward for them to do it.
I'm not to sure about that, at the beginning of the 20th Century the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the validity of the "Seperate but Equal" doctrine, and sixty years later they
struck it down, you could argue that was a total reversal of the previous precedent, but since it was in line with the beliefs of the powers that be it stood, if, in the future anti-
gun forces manage to get control of the Supreme Court, well they could reverse this decision just like "Seperate but Equal".
Anformula July 1st, 2008, 01:23 AM

I'm not to sure about that, at the beginning of the 20th Century the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the validity of the "Seperate but Equal" doctrine, and sixty years later they
struck it down, you could argue that was a total reversal of the previous precedent, but since it was in line with the beliefs of the powers that be it stood, if, in the future anti-
gun forces manage to get control of the Supreme Court, well they could reverse this decision just like "Seperate but Equal".
That is a good point, and I worry about the same thing, but I think this assessment of the second amendment is (hopefully) slightly different....
Essentially, all this decision did was examine the wording used in the second amendment, and rule as to whether it conveys a group "militia" right, or an individual one. In
order to reverse the decision, a future left leaning court would have to have an excuse to examine the logic again, and come to a different conclusion. Since the wording is
more or less timeless, I think it would be difficult.
What infuriates me is that the whole debate is completely disingenuous. The dissenters know damn well the second amendment spells out an individual right to be armed, they
just don't like it. The fact that there were dissenters tells us the bad shape this country is in, and how the left only support the portions of the constitution they "like".
So, if things in the future go so far wrong that this decision is overturned, I think this country's slide to Western European/Canadian style socialism will be almost unstoppable.
That is terrifying.
Hirudinea July 2nd, 2008, 08:24 PM

That is a good point, and I worry about the same thing, but I think this assessment of the second amendment is (hopefully) slightly different....
Essentially, all this decision did was examine the wording used in the second amendment, and rule as to whether it conveys a group "militia" right, or an individual one. In
order to reverse the decision, a future left leaning court would have to have an excuse to examine the logic again, and come to a different conclusion. Since the wording is
more or less timeless, I think it would be difficult.
What infuriates me is that the whole debate is completely disingenuous. The dissenters know damn well the second amendment spells out an individual right to be armed, they
just don't like it. The fact that there were dissenters tells us the bad shape this country is in, and how the left only support the portions of the constitution they "like".
Well as you point out four judges did interperate the admendment as not applying, change one judge, have one more similar case and they could change it, the fact is who
could stop them? No one. I've always thought Supreme Courts have far to much power for an unelected body (a reflection of the Canadian experience there) and the fact is
most judges are masters of reading things into laws that aren't written in them, so if there is a will to overturn your second amendment, the Supreme Court, with the right left
judges, will find a way.
So, if things in the future go so far wrong that this decision is overturned, I think this country's slide to Western European/Canadian style socialism will be almost unstoppable.
That is terrifying.
You think that's terrible, try living under Socialism! :mad:
FlamingPope July 7th, 2008, 11:24 AM

Ah apple sauce. Seriously how many of you could careless about the supreme court rulings? This forum is only possible because you defy the courts. Even if the supreme court
placed an all out ban on firearms for the "individual militia" There would still be plenty of unregistered guns and people simply saying "lost it." Walk into any grocery store now
and I bet half of the people in there will have firearms on them without holding a license.
FUTI July 7th, 2008, 04:13 PM

I'm European. I'm not even English speaker. I also do not own any firearm (legaly or in any other way). But I have an opinion on this. When needed it wouldn't take me more
than a day to find a way to purchase a gun/rifle since it is centuries old tradition in my country. People here love guns. In the crisis time when crime and other stuff shoot
through the roof and shit hits the fan, it is good to have one. That keep those stuff little more in control.
Lets look the issue from the other point of view. UK is one of the English speaking countries that have most prohibitive laws regarding guns as I concluded from reading posts
on this forum. Forgive me for using the this simplification taking only English speaking countries in consideration. I'm doing it just to narrow the scope of this matter in relation
of cultural differences (they will still exist as those caused by geography factors etc., but I find that people among English speaking countries are much more related then
people from USA and China for example). Did that made it's crime rate lower then other English speaking countries? Hell no. They are I think on the second place by the
number of violent crimes among those countries. So the less guns less crime is false. Also I have read a news yesterday that in UK there is a sharp rise in teenage crime with
the use of cold weapons / knifes. They are debating among police forces what to do about that, since they have 18th murder among teenagers this year with knifes involved (
other crimes mentioned but no figures given). Teenagers (10 to 16 years old!) admits that they carry knifes with them on a daily basis in school (10 to 20% depending of the
age group). As far as I know these numbers are usually 3 time higher. This leads us once again to the fact that most dangerous weapon is men itself. Knifes don't have will,
guns don't choose targets, men does.
It is clear that problem USA and UK are faced right now have nothing to do with having or not having the means but that it is sociological problem since there is obviously a
need for weapons. Society is ill in some way. Since I don't live there I don't know what it is that is wrong there. To be honest I can assume something based on the values that
they try to impose here. Nevertheless I won't say that since I find rude to speak someone how to run things in its own house (which is also the very same thing that piss me
off when USA do that here). You must clean up your house yourself....you have the pen and the vote, use it. Lobby in Congress or whatever. Point the story in the right
direction, since when it comes to gathering votes for election, no politician will admit that bad state society is has anything to do with the way they lead the country, but will
search (and grab for) for the lame excuses like "guns are to blame" (hell I expect to wake up one morning just to find out that birds are the bad guys that made the ozone
hole because they fly to fast through the clouds :-P ). I wish you luck on that task.
Jacks Complete July 17th, 2008, 07:43 PM

FUTI does it again. Another top post.
You are exactly right that it matters not that you ban every means of killing another man (woman, child, dog, cat, wildebeest) because they are still available. Even on an
aeroplane in these times of taking off your shoes and showing much ID, everyone here with a post count worth a damn could find a way or two of killing a few people or even
bringing down the 'plane, armed with nothing more than pocket lint and a stale baguette to hand.
What matters is that we don't kill each other most of the time. And that's not because beating people with pillows is a slow way to do it, but because we aren't trying to kill!
The knife debate? I've carried at least one knife on me for the past 20 years or so, nearly every day. Into nightclubs, pubs, bars, churches, houses, cars, in fact, everywhere! I
even brought one into the court one time, despite the pat-down and walk-through metal detector archway. Yet, perhaps weirdly to those who do not trust anyone, not even
themselves, I've not stabbed a single person. I've got it out once, when I was young, to get a bigger kid to back the fuck away, and once when I prevented three kids from
mugging me with a cheeseknife (I'm not kidding! It was a sharp cheese knife!)
I've not shot anyone, either, despite having ready access to guns of all sorts of types of them for the past 20 years as well.
Yet I know punks who would love to be able to "off" someone, but they haven't the brains nor ability nor means. So they beat each other up and sometimes someone gets
cut. More often, they end up brain damaged after being kicked into hospital or the morgue.
Why am I so different to them? Self-control? Upbringing? Intelligence? I'm not sure I know, but it is the only answer... Find out how to instil a basis respect for human life in
these scumballs, and do it soon.
gaussincarnate July 18th, 2008, 02:56 AM

The most disturbing facet of all of this is, as several people pointed out earlier, that this case ever even came to court. This country has survived for as long as it has simply
because the leaders of the past had the maturity to respect the Constitution and the processes of governing described therein enough to put aside political differences in favor
of stability and sensibility. Unfortunately, this time appears to have passed.
At least we can take solace in the fact that the only justice that appears to be in danger of keeling over within the next fifteen minutes is Stevens (he is 88, after all). Even if
Obama wins, he will not want to risk completely alienating the pro-gun crowd. As one of the most intelligent people I ever knew pointed out, politicians are great at what they
do: they get themselves elected. After that, they are worthless. If he loses all of the pro-gun (or at least "anti-anti-gun") people, he will be taking a rather large gamble and
putting his second-term chances at risk.
On the bright side, most justices, even the most liberal amongst them have at least some respect for stare decisis, which should protect our right for at least a while longer.
Is it just me, or is it rather amusing that it took Alzheimers for Reagan and a bullet through the brain for Brady to soften their stance on gun control? The moral: brain damage
and severe neurological complications may cause people to become more liberal.
By the way, Jacks Complete, in my humble opinion, stale smores are more effective stabbing weapons than baguettes.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Absolutely Disgusting
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R e c e n t l y ( t h e p a s t c o u p l e o f y e a r s ) t h e s t a t e g o v e r n m e n t h a s d e c i d e d t h a t o u r s t a t e h a s a n a g e i n g p o p u l a t i o n , a n d to improve
economy we require more children born. W heth er or not this is true, is irrelevant. It is what they decided to do to ha ve m ore
children born . They decided to "reward" couples that have a child with $5000.
This $5000 is not dependant on anything. Not on incom e , n o t o n s o c i o - e c o n o m ic region, it doesn't need to be spent on the
child: It is sim ply conditional on the ch ild's birth.
Of course, to any individual with half a fucking brain, they would realise that $500 0 is pittance when it com es to raising a child.
W hen the average cost for raising a ch ild (according to Dr Paul Henman of the Un iversity of Queensland (http://
www.uq.edu.au/swahs/costsofkids/CostsofRaisingChildrenMarchQ uarter07.pdf)) is $123000-$254000. That is 24.6-5 0.8 TIMES
t h e a m ount that the government gives you.
Of course, th e s e s u b h u m an filth (unintelligent portion o f the population) don't seem to realise that and are popping out their
little "miracles" in welfare hom es all over the state.
The real m iracle would be if their m u m could re m e m ber their fathers nam e... C alling their kids trucker junior, cause all she
r e m e m bers about their daddy is his fuzzy little pot belly riding on top of her shoo ting his caffeine ridden semen into her belly
to produce her little waterhaired m iracle baby child.
These filthy fucks pro bably sit around som e night going "Sharlene (stereotypical Australian woman's nam e), Centrelink (nam e
of welfare system) will give us $5000 for a baby. If we have 3 babies that's....... uh....a lot of money."
T h e r e a s o n t h i s g e t s m y b a c k u p s o m uch is because they don't even take care o f their kids. W alk ing through a departm e n t
store the oth er day, I saw one such filthy excuse of a hum an being swearing at her child who, arou nd her profanity, says
" M u m my. Ca n we buy a blanket while we are here? I'm always so cold." The "m um" then proceeds to drag her kid o ut of the
store into the mall.
I norm ally try not to get sucked into the "think of the kids" line, but this is one obvious case where the governm ent HASN'T
thought about the kids, and the effect that this stupid "Baby Bonus" will have on the popu lation, both gene tically and socially.
Filthy fucking subhum an bastards. It takes a real piece of work to neglect a child like that, and it pisses m e r i g h t o f f . P e o p l e
think that the governm ent has our best interests in m in d, but any faith like that is completely disp e l l e d w h e n I s e e s o m ething
s o u nthoughtful as th is.
This isn't just one case either. It is about the tim e t h a t t h e s e p a rents who popped out their little m iracles need to start send it
to school, an d that is where shit really hits the fan. Social workers are being called in left right and centre, with 2 incidents in
the past W EEK where children need to taken to hospital because they are so malnourished.
Fuckers....
festergrump June 29th, 2008, 03:39 AM

I feel your pain, Alexires.
B a s t a r d t h a t I m a y b e , I c a n n o t s t a n d t o s e e a n y a n i m al suffer, especially if it is a child and is undeserving of harsh

conditions...
I read once years ago that rearing a child in the USA to 18 YO A would at the very least cost half a m illion dollars if one were to
care for it properly. I don't doubt that one bit (m y d a u g h t e r i s s o o n t o b e 1 3 a n d s h e h a s c o s t a s m a l l f o r t u n e . M o n e y W E L L
spent, IMHO!).
In Georgia they cut off the welfare at 3 children , so I've heard. That's 2 too m any, but it's a start...

B a b y b o n u s m y ass, m ore like Plasma TV bonus for bogans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogan).
I unfortunately see them nearly every day, a bunch of fuckwits recently p elted everyones cars at work with ice cream s , g u e s s
they were pissed off when one of their 'brethren' got arrested for stealing from the place.
Bugger June 29th, 2008, 09:05 PM

O h y e s , I h a v e h e a r d i n t h e N e w Z e a l a n d n e w s m e d i a a b o u t t h o s e c a s e s i n Q u e e n s l a n d ( n e a r B r i s b a n e ) , S o u t h A u s t r a l i a ( n e ar
Adelaide), and in Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, of children being found starving and poorly clad and generally
neglected, thanks to their f***witted p arents. In at least two cases the f***witted parents had had 6 children without even
owning their own hom e, and in one case twins were found dead from starvation.
As for the $A5,000 "b aby bribe" proposed by the South Australia n Government, is there any requirem ent th at it be paid into a
bank trust account in the child 's nam e, and subject to audit? If not, you can be sure the parents will take it down to the nearest
Adelaide pub, and drink it (wh ether they buy Toohey's Ale or Victoria Bitter or R e n m a n o A g e d P o r t i s a m o o t point); the child
will never see a cent of it.
The "average cost for raising a child (according to Dr Paul Henman of the University of Queensland)" of $A123,000-$A254,000,
as far as Australia or New Zealand is concerned, is GROSSLY UNDERSTATED!! I would put it, with any decency, at well over $1
m illion, taking into account su ch things as incom e foreg o n e , a n d e s p e c i a lly tertiary education and a car and a substantial
deposit on a first hom e .

If th ey had this in the States, every crackwhore from New York, to Houston to Los Angeles would be popping out babies.
I ' v e b e e n u n d e r t h e i m pression the po pulation needed to be controlled.. and now I read about the se things. W hy can't we all
b e o n t h e s a m e page with certain issues?
Does China still have the one-child law?

Personally, I like the definition for Bog an found here (http://uncyclopedia.org/wik i/Bogan#Diet) be tter.
Kaydon - Everyone seems to look at Australia and go "Wow, look at all that land they aren't using!" What they fail to realise is
that it is a desert. A gigantic fucking desert that doesn't support bloody cactus, let alone people.
It is a typical government app roach. They see the problem a s a g i n g p o p u l a t i o n , s o t h e i r s o l u t i o n : b r i b e p e o p l e t o h a v e m o r e

children. Perhaps if they actually im proved services for children that aren't at risk of getting pissed up against the local pub
wall, m ore people would be inclined to have children. Hell, I wouldn't want to have children in the current po litical/social clim ate
either.
B u g g e r - O h , I a g r e e . T h e l e s s e r o f t h o s e f i g u r e s i s g i v e n a s t h e b a r e m inim um for survival of the child. Isn't too hard to

believe when you got nothing as a child. But still, it isn't a lot to work with, is it?
festergrum p - That is a good idea. I think that it should be about 1 child as well. Australia isn't a big place (population wise) so
I can alm o s t u n d e r s t a n d t h e m wanting to increase population, and with the amou nt of im m igrants com ing in from china/m id dle
east I would want to try and breed com petitively with them as well, but all it is doing is increasing the shallow end of the gene
pool, lowering the average intelligence of the population and propagating the cycle of neglect.
T h e n a g a i n , I s u p p o s e t h e r e i s a b r i g h t side to it all. My children will be the eagles above the turkeys at this rate. W ith average
IQ dropping, those with brains will be deified....that or burned at the stake.
I n c i d e n t a l l y , h a s a n y o n e s e e n the m ovie Idiocracy? A funny m ovie, but very scary when co nsidered a s a p o s s i b l e ( a n d l i k e l y )
future for our country/world.
I implore you to watch it.

I n c i d e n t a l l y , h a s a n y o n e s e e n the m ovie Idiocracy? A funny m ovie, but very scary when co nsidered a s a p o s s i b l e ( a n d l i k e l y )
future for our country/world.
I implore you to watch it.
The first 20 m inutes of the m ovie are pretty m uch al you need to see, th at explains it all, and its whats happening in the
world, why dosn't som ebody invent an I.Q. test wired to a bom b, score le s s t h a n 1 2 0 a n d B O OM! :D
Bugger July 2nd, 2008, 09:51 AM

(cut) .... you can be sure the parents will take it down to the nearest Adelaide pub, and drink it (whether they buy Toohey's Ale
or Victoria Bitter or Renmano Aged Port is a m oot point); the child will never see a cent of it.(cut)
T h a t r e m i n d s m e - I wonder what your favorite Australia n tipple is, Alexires? Foster's Lager, Victoria Bitter, Toohey's Ale,
B u n d a b e r g R um, Q ueen Adelaide red wine, or Renm a n o A g e d P o r t ?
Alexires July 2nd, 2008, 09:33 PM

Bugger - I m ust admit that I am a fan of Toohey's Old. Only when it is on tap though (the stuff in the bottle is not very nice
I M H O ).
I'm m ore of a spirits person m yself. Decent scotch does m e nicely (straight).
Cobalt.45 July 20th, 20 08, 12:3 9 PM

why dosn't som ebody invent an I.Q. test wired to a bom b, score less than 120 an d BOO M! :D
A physician friend suggested that an X-ray m achine be installed waist-level at banks where anyone cashing a welfare check
would receive a sterilizing dose of radiation.
Called it "preventative medicine":D...
Alexires July 20th, 20 08, 08:1 9 PM

*chuckle* Cobalt, that is fantastic. Most people that deserve welfare checks are p ast breeding age anyway, and the rest should
be culled.
Only problem with that though is that we would have a shortage of labour to do all the dirty work (cleaning toilets, digging
graves, build ing build ings, etc.)
Pity you can't seem to have everything, eh?
Hobbit Porn July 21st, 2008, 01:31 AM

Australia is currently in the m idst of a skills shortage ( good for m e, after recently quitting m y job, I've found I'm actually ve ry
e m ployable), and in the grip of an obesity epidemic.
W hat does this translate to?
That m ost of Australia are a b unch of useless fat cunts. (All said in jest, I am a Q u e e n s l a n d e r a n d d o p o s s e s s m a n y b o g a n
qualities)
To actually keep on topic, I th ink that the laws regarding the baby bonus have been reviewed so that it is no longer just a
c h e q u e t o b u y a P l a s m a TV fo r a housing com m i s s i o n h o u s e .
I don't know if it actually is in effect, but there was talk about the baby bonus only being paid in in stallmen ts, rather then the
lum p sum that it originally was given a s.
Another scary aspect is that each tim e the Gov announces that they are increasing the baby bonus (when the schem e originally
started it was $2000), you start seeing expecting couples saying how they have to keep the bun in t h e o v e n f o r l o n g e n o u g h t o
be paid the increased bonus.
shady mutha July 21st, 2008, 03:37 AM

HaHaHa funny topic nearly spilled m y beer reading it!
Yes, the people who run this country are fucked in the head no doubt, buts its still the best country in the world!
W h e n I s e e t h e s e s t u p i d p e o p l e I d o n ' t g e t m ad about it, I just just laug h, it's their choice.
The children deserve better but its out of our control, just try to raise you rs right.
Coopers Pale ale all day son! Idiocrasy indeed funny, too hands just as good a laugh.
Hirudinea July 22nd, 2008, 08:48 PM

A physician friend suggested that an X-ray m achine be installed waist-level at banks where anyone cashing a welfare check
would receive a sterilizing dose of radiation.
Called it "preventative medicine":D...
G o o d i d e a , b ut we'ed also have to put x-ray m achines in cabs, liquor & beer stores just to make sure. :)
Only problem with that though is that we would have a shortage of labour to do all the dirty work (cleaning toilets, digging
graves, build ing build ings, etc.)
Pity you can't seem to have everything, eh?
Do what they do the Gulf oil states, import third world im m igrants, pay th ey shit, treat them l i ke s l a ves a nd if they bitch ship
t h e m b a c k h o m e . ( O k w e d o t h e s a m e thing in the west but we m a k e t h e m i s t a k e o f g i v i n g t h e m c i t i z e n s h i p ! )

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Music?
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I remember seeing a thread on what Forumites listened to a good while ago, but I couldn't find it searching, using a couple different terms.. So, new thread time?
I wonder how many of us have a common ground outside of chemistry/weapons? haha.
List genres or bands...
Some of what I like..
Burzum, Daylight Dies, Deicide, Kreator, Iron Maiden, Megadeth, DevilDriver, Symphony X, 3 Inches of Blood, Pro-Pain, Death Before Dishonor, Terror, Born From Pain, Lacuna
Coil, Seamount, Hail of Bullets, Amon Amarth, Arch Enemy, Dissonant, Heaven Shall Burn, High On Fire, In Flames, Sworn Enemy, Vehemence, Vader, Judas Priest, Suicide
Silence, It Dies Today, Raunchy, Cannibal Corpse, Aeternus, Fates Warning, Dimmu Borgir, Old Man's Child, Cathedral, Bathory, At The Gates, Hate Eternal, All That Remain,
Watch Them Die, Infernal Method, Black Sabbath, W.A.S.P., Ion Dissonance, Memory Garden, Lamb Of God, Vital Remains, Fear Factory, Morbid Angel, Dark Tranquillity,
Mastodon, Entombed, One Minute Silence, Motorhead, I Shalt Become, Opeth, Dio, Arckanum, Godsmack, God Dethroned
Nickth3great June 30th, 2008, 01:20 AM

Let me just say that there isn't a single genre of music that hasn't produced at least one song that I liked. Well, actually, if elevator music was a genre then maybe it'd be the
one genre that hasn't produced a song I like.
Anyway I mostly listen to classic and alternative rock, some of the bands I like include: AC/DC, Metallica, Blue Oyster Cult, REM, Tom Petty, Bob Dylan, 3 Doors Down,
Nickleback, Pink Floyd , All American Rejects, Green Day, Nazareth, Foo fighters, Seether, Alice In Chains, Nirvana, Soul Asylum, Rob Zombie, Def Leppard and yeah I also like
WASP and Godsmack.

SONS OF BUTCHER RULEZ!!! (Well this was a question about what music you like, right?)
-=HeX=- June 30th, 2008, 09:31 PM

Hmmm...
Nine inch nails (DOWNWARD SPIRAL ROCKS), Jesu, My Chemical Romance, Job for a cowboy, Slayer, Lamb of god, AC/DC, Nirvana, Ministry (no, not ministry of sound!!!),
Metallica, really its rock, grunge and metal.
Happy Hindu July 1st, 2008, 01:19 AM

Nirvana was the best band ever! And Blink 182 and the Offspring are great, and the Foo Fighters rock as well.
ChippedHammer July 1st, 2008, 02:40 AM

Slayer, Megadeth, Iron Maiden, All shall perish, Job for a cowboy, Kataklysm, Sabaton, Vader, Amon Armath, Iced Earth, HammerFall, Ozzy Osbourne, Arch Enemy, Fear
Factory, High on Fire, Kalmah, Judas Priest, Lamb of God, Pantera, Primal Fear, Therion.
That's whats on my main playlist ATM, most of my favorites are there.
Metallica can go fuck themselves btw.
iHME July 1st, 2008, 07:41 PM

A quick list in no particular order:
Frontline Assembly, Furi Anga, Seatbelts, Front 242, Laibach, Turmion Ktilt, ATB, Funker Vogt, Apocalyptica, Elkelliset, [:SITD:], Combichrist, Don Davis, KMFDM, Grendel,
Tactical Sekt, Peace Orchestra, Ulrich Scnauss, Ohgr, Rotersand, The Crystal Method, The Prodigy, Rage Against The Machine, Sex Pistols.
Thorald July 3rd, 2008, 04:38 PM

Wow. Compared to some of you guys I have so many favourite bands. But so far I think all of you have a good taste in music as far as I am concerned!
AC/DC, Boston, Amon Amarthm, Darkness, The, David Bowie, Deathstars, Disturbed, Doors, The, Dope, Drowning Pool, Guns 'N Roses, Iron Maiden, Kansas, Killswitch Engage,
KMFDM, Korn, Linkin Park, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Marilyn Manson, MDFMK, Metallica, Muse, Moby, Nightwish, Nine Inch Nails, Nirvana, Stone Sour, Slipknot, Oasis, Pendulum, Rush,
Rammstein and The Who.
There are a few more, I'll cut it short.
The_Duke July 3rd, 2008, 11:18 PM

Chimaira and TOOL are my favourites. Then there is Down, Mudvayne, Slipknot, All That Remains, Bleeding Through, Atreyu, Alice in Chains, Children Of Bodom, Black Sabbath,
Avenged Sevenfold, Black Label Society, Nuclear Rabbit, CKY, As I Lay Dying, Blink182, Bury Your Dead, Caliban, Devil Wears Prada, DevilDriver, Dio, Disturbed, Dream
Theatre, Haste the Day, HELLYEAH, HIM, Primus, In Flames, Iron maiden, Killswitch Engage(old), Lamb Of God, Led ZeppLin, Megadeth, Hatebreed, Dismata, Metallica(old),
MushroomHead, Offspring, I'm running out... Pantera, Perfect Circle, Rage Against The Machine, Rebel Meets Rebel, Red Hot Chili Peppers, to be continued another day...

Marilyn Manson and/or Slipknot is probably my favorite. Others that are close: Lamb of God, Children of Bodom, Cannibal Corpse (sometimes), Combichrist, Otep, Disturbed,
Mudvayne, Nine Inch Nials, Rob Zombie, etc. I can't stand AC/DC or anything that resembles it.
Its interesting how similar all of our preferences are so far.
thelasttrueone July 4th, 2008, 03:00 PM

Mine are Nirvana, Avenged Sevenfold, NIN, The Casualties, The Clash, Rage Against the Machine, Daft Punk, The Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, The Sex Pistols, Rob Zombie and
Rammstien. Not as much of a metal fan as you hardcore rockers, more a punkrock guy myself.
-=HeX=- July 6th, 2008, 11:24 AM

Well well well :D this makes picking the soundtrack for the forum video that I am (Very slowly) compiling so much easier! Please do not hesitate so email me your suggestions
for the soundtrack and most importantly, your videos! My email is lordi--101@hotmail.com And my msn is the same. I think there is a link between heavy metal and the forum
myself...
Secong Nature July 22nd, 2008, 09:19 PM

The link makes sense HeX, we forumites like to think of ourselves as liberated thinkers, it takes a large degree of individualism to listen to stuff not on the radio.
For me its European metal mainly, a band you may like Kaydon is Gorefest, Dutch Death Metal with political lyrics and observations on mankind, especially their latest album
'Rise to Ruin'
Anyone else out there going to/been to a Carcass gig?
gaussincarnate July 23rd, 2008, 05:56 PM

Slayer, Pink Floyd, Jonnie Cash, Cannibal Corpse, Lamb of God, Pantera, Judas Priest, Zyklon, Deep Purple, Megadeath, Metallica, Mudvayne, Opeth, Kataklysm, Genesis,
Rammstein, Queen, Black Sabbath, Rolling Stones, Scorpions, Styx, Stephen Lynch, Manowar, Black Dahlia Murder, BTO, CCR, Grand Funk Railroad, Vader, The Who, The
Beatles, The Guess Who, Van Halen, ZZ Top, Disturbed, Dragonforce, Foreigner, and System of a Down are all featured very frequently on my playlist.
I find it amusing that almost every list on this thread mentions Megadeath and Lamb of God. There is an obvious connection between our areas of interest and violence, and
then violence to metal and hard rock, but the constant occurance of the same few bands in almost every list is rather uncanny.
droz July 24th, 2008, 05:06 AM

Max Resist, Bully Boys, Bulldog Breed, Skrewdriver, Definite Hate, Riot Wing, Jew Slaughter, Aggravated Assault, Aggressive Force, Bound For Glory, Blue Eyed Devils, Angry
Aryans, Intimidation One, H8MACHINE, Johnny Rebel, Johnny Cash, David Allen Coe, Slayer, Pantera.
Pretty much any RAC/WP Music... A Few mainstream bands, but they're few and far between... most are too zog influenced.
Cobalt.45 July 24th, 2008, 10:07 PM

"Classic" rock, for the most part- 'though twazn't classic when I first heard it:(. I remember trying to describe Queen when they came out as a mix between Yes, Mott the
Hoople and Uriah Heep...
Rage and some of Corn's stuff's OK, too.
A little surprised (but pleased) to see J. Cash get a nod. Him doing Reznor's "Hurt" (and the video) just blew me away!!! Snoop even gives the old man cred w/his crew by
doing a remix of "I Walk the Line".
Alexires July 27th, 2008, 03:34 AM

Rage is good. I like most of what has been listed here, but there are certainly things that have been lacking. Mozart's Requiem, Wagner, Beethoven's 9th and 5th. Handel's
Messiah, Saint-Saens "Organ" Symphony. Most epic music (such as the backing music from V for Vendetta or Pirates).
There is a band called Eluveitie that is good (if you like metal and bagpipes). Especially their song Inis Mona.

Amon Amarth, Metallica, Ministry, Korpiklaani, Ensiferum, Wintersun, Finntroll, Trollfest, Apocalyptica, Dimmu Borgir, Satyricon, Carpathian Forest, Burzum, Rhapsody of Fire,
Turisas, Battleheart/Alestorm, Elvenking, Helloween, Hammerfall, Manowar, Rammstein, Nirvana, Therion, Eluveitie, Temnozor, Laibach, Kamelot, Tyr, Twisted Sister,
Temnozor, Arkona, Dragonforce, Skyforger, Gamma Ray, Led Zeppelin, Naglfar, Nile, Pantera, Celtic Legacy, Rage Against the Machine, Shaman, Slayer, Alice Cooper,
Moonsorrow, Svartsot, Catamenia, Primordial, ...
I listen to almost all metal and industrial, some grunge and rock, old songs from Ireland, Scotland and Slavic countries. I'm also a big fan of classical, especially Hndel, Bach,
Beethoven, Wagner, Vivaldi, Grieg and Sibelius.
festergrump July 27th, 2008, 10:54 AM

Primus is still one of my favorites, and on that note, anyone who also likes them might be interested in Les Claypools "rockumentary" entitled [B]Electric Apricot: Quest for
Festeroo[/I]. It's along the same lines as This is Spinal Tap and is some really gutbusting funny shit, though Les never even picks up a bass. Instead he plays the drums and is
halfway decent at it...
Beethoven's 9th and 5th are also my favorite of the classical genre, having been turned onto it at a young age by the classic movie 'A Clockwork Orange.
King Crimson, ELP, Motorhead, Gwar, Sepultura, Johnny Cash (of course!), Nuclear Rabbit, King Missile, David Bowie, Adam Ant, Pantera, Megadeth, Pink Floyd, Nirvana,
Buckethead, Steve Vai, Frank Zappa... The list goes on forever, seemingly. If it ain't uber-country or rap, chances are I like it. I still have a big thing for the classic '80s rock,
just no hair bands or posers.
Fear ruled the punk scene so far as I'm concerned, right up there with the Sex Pistols.
cyf531 July 31st, 2008, 10:39 AM

Primus, Rage Against The Machine, The Prodigy, Nirvava, Metallica, Smashing Pumpkins, The Crystal Method, The Offspring, The Misfits.
Pretty much anything that plays on the radio sucks.
Kaydon July 31st, 2008, 08:16 PM

Primus is pretty decent.
Raventale has been kicking my ass lately.. Damn good tunes.
Secong Nature August 1st, 2008, 02:19 AM

On the topic of rockumentary Spinal Tap, who keeps up with Dethklok's 'Metalocalypse'?
Ygarl August 12th, 2008, 09:42 PM

Adres Segovia, The Moody Blues, Pink Floyd, Yes, Rush, Aerosmith, Queen, AC/DC, Metallica, Sepultura, Slayer, Morbid Angel, Atrocity, Cradle of Filth, Brujeria, Pestilence,
Death, Skyclad, Sabbat, Akercocke, Dimmu Borgir, Job for a Cowboy, Pantera...
Woah. I have wierd music taste.
Basically, pretty much any band that didn't start release thier first Country album after about 1990, or didn't wear hairspray (or contained any men who didn't wear eye
makeup - unless ironically) during the '80s. Otherwise, I'm good.
Late Country music is without any notable exception a rehash of a copy of a copy of GOOD Country: Jennings, Haggard, Parton et al.
80's Cock Rock was a horrifying waste of time and effort. Thank god Grunge killed them dead.
BTW - Kurt Kobain, "We only every wanted to be the Pixies..."

Nirvana - the best? Well, they might have been eventually.
Try something from the Melvins or The Pixies for an exciting taste experience! :-)
Lewis August 12th, 2008, 09:57 PM

I'm seeing a definite trend here. Classic rock, metal, classic rock, metal .....
I suppose it would be madness to listen to any other genre? You can learn a lot about someone by what they listen to, and this thread is really enlightening about who uses this
forum!
For me it's a heavy dose of electronica with a light sprinkling of everything else. Breaks, DnB, Electro, Trance on a special occasion. A little ambient and jazz just to mix it up.
I need to be RELAXED when synthesizing energetics, so I stick to more mellow beats in the lab.
If I had to list them though, the top ones would be Daft Punk, Amon Tobin and Aphex Twin.
totenkov August 13th, 2008, 02:06 AM

Adres Segovia, The Moody Blues, Pink Floyd, Yes, Rush, Aerosmith, Queen, AC/DC, Metallica, Sepultura, Slayer, Morbid Angel, Atrocity, Cradle of Filth, Brujeria, Pestilence,
Death, Skyclad, Sabbat, Akercocke, Dimmu Borgir, Job for a Cowboy, Pantera...
Woah. I have wierd music taste.
I wouldn't go so far as to say your tastes are weird, more of an eclectic, eccentric taste. I share some of the same as you. I love good hard rock but some punk and metal
becomes rather irritating and annoying to me quite quickly. The moody Blues are an excellent band that I note most for their albums "On the threshold of a dream" and "Days
of the future passed". Pink Floyd has to be my most favorite band of all time, especially when tripping.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Ethyl nitrate
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Ethyl July 3rd, 200 8, 08:21 AM

I know that ethyl nitrate can b e m ade from ethyl bromide and silver nitrate. But how is that done? Is the silver nitrate
d i s s o l v e d i n s o m e solvent and then EtBr is poured in an d EtONO2 form s as a laye r of liquid?
And could Ag N O 3 b e r e p l a c e d b y P b ( N O 3 ) 2 ?
Bugger July 3rd, 200 8, 10:12 AM

The driving-force of that reaction would be the high lattice energy and he nce high insolubility of AgBr (which with the price of Ag
now would be worth refining fo r it afterwards). P bCl2 sim ilarly being insoluble, it m ay be usable as a substitute. It would have
to be carried out in som e solvent in which both C2H5Br and AgNO3 or Pb(NO3)2 a re very soluble, and in which the C 2H5Br is
significantly ionized, but with which NO3- and Ag+ or Pb++ do not react or easily form sparingly soluble salts. I would think
suitable solvents are likely to be polar aprotic ones, especially ethers, lik e diethyl ether, furan, tetrahydrofuran, oxane,
diox a n e ; a n d p o s s i b l y k e t o n e s l i k e a c e t o n e . P y r i d i n e o r o t h e r a m i n e s o l v e n t s m a y crystallize out as nitrates.
Ethyl July 3rd, 200 8, 01:06 PM

Thank you for the info.
It would be very nice if acetone would work. It is cheap, easy to get and EtONO2 would be easily separated from the reaction
m ixture by first filtering out PbBr2 and then pouring the remaining solution in water. As acetone is miscible with water they
would m ix and EtONO 2 would fall out from the solution.
I will test the solubility of Pb(NO3)2 in acetone to see if it could work.
How could EtONO 2 be separated from diethyl ether? Pouring in water would not work as ether is not m iscible with water so
EtO NO2 would not fall out of solution. Perhaps leaving ether to evaporate from the nitrate would work? But I believe ethyl
nitrate is also very vo latile so a lot of it would also evap orate.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > I n d o n e s i a n Bom b s
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fiknet July 4th, 200 8, 06:08 AM

D i d a n y o n e s e e / h a v e m o r e i n f o o n t h e s u p p o s e d m assive bomb cache that was to target westerners m uch like the 'Bali
b o m bs'?
W hile reading through a few a rticles I caught this little snippet, which to me sounds quite stupid.
http://www.news.com .au/story/0,23599,23969589-23109,00.htm l
Indonesia's National Police chief General Sutanto said the cache of seized bombs - including 10 which were primed to explode -
h a d t h e p o t e ntial for a greater blast th an the 2002 Bali bombings in which 202 people died, including 88 Australians.
"It's very true because the technique now, the bom b it's not filled with metal ball bearings but its filled with sharp bullets," he
said.
"(Th ey are) filled into it so that when the explosion happens, certainly it will have a double im pact.
"If it is exploded, the bom b itself and the bullets, when explode d will hurt people and eve n could kill people."
I s h e s u g g e s t i n g t h a t w h e n t h e b o m b goes off all the bullets(7.62 perhaps?) will suddenly go off a n d b e l i k e h u n d r e d s o f

AK47's firing?:confused:
Never m ind a 100g steel ball bearing coming at you just watch out for those 7.62 bullets, they're SHARP
Barnacles July 4th, 200 8, 06:40 AM

I don't think just burning or cooking off bullets will have the sam e effect as firing them . T h e y n e e d t o b e i n a barrel for
confinement of the blast/pressure than all of the powde r is used and the bullet is sent on a linear trajectory. If it is not
contained with a barrel the rapidly expanding gases barely push the bullet away.
From experience I saw a bulle t cook off and simply fly off not to far. It went bang like it had really fired, but the bullet bounced
off some wood like 5 feet awa y and barely even scratched it, If it had hit me or the other person it would have maybe, just
m aybe scratched us or bruised us. It was really freaking scary th ough...
T h e m e d i a t e n d s t o n o t " r e s e a r c h " ( b y t h i s I m e a n i g n o re or refuse to print incontrovertible evidence , See ostrich with its he a d
in the sand) their claim s on things like energetics or anything taboo, steroids, drugs and what not. They are merely trying to
p u r s u e t h e g o v e r n m e nts agenda of fearmongering. If they actually told the truth they wouldn't be able to scare us into shee ple
s u b m ission.
crazywhiteguy July 4th, 200 8, 03:16 PM

I also disagree with the 7.62 possibility. If the bullets were stacked in a way that they would all be spent, they would be torn
apart by the forces of the explosion. I really doubt that they would use low explosive and a thousa nd heavy barrels that wou ld
be required to m a k e t h o s e b u llets leth al. More likely is that they would cast a cover of cast iron is a grid in the way W W I I
grenades were. This would m a k e t h e c o r n e r s ' s h a r p ' a n d h a v i n g a f l a t s u r f a c e t o t a k e t h e g a s e s o f t h e e x p l o s i o n w o u l d m o r e
effectively propel the shrapnel than the tiny tail face of a bullet.
Kaydon July 6th, 200 8, 12:47 PM

From experience I saw a bulle t cook off and simply fly off not to far. It went bang like it had really fired, but the bullet bounced
off some wood like 5 feet awa y and barely even scratched it, If it had hit me or the other person it would have maybe, just
m aybe scratched us or bruised us. It was really freaking scary th ough...
MythBusters cooked bullets in an oven to see if they would fire and break the glass on the oven door and the only bullet that
did that was the .50 cal, and it only broke the inner sheet of glass.
They tested .22, .45 and .50, they may have done 38 and so on but I don't rem ember.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C hemistry Gam e!!!
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Barnacles July 4th, 200 8, 06:36 AM

I had an idea a few weeks ago for a chemistry gam e we could all play. W e would gain kno wledge and possibly improve the
forum , and even more possible that we m ay com e up with som e new ways of getting certain chem i c a l s s y n t h e s i z e d t h a t m e g a
m ay not have or be aware of , he is great and a vast plethora of knowledge but cannot know EVERYTHING (no offen se
intended).
Anyway onto my game idea, basically, I or som eone else will list their available chem icals, and possibly their available lab
ware. Then P eople will "synthesize' energetics, chem ical precursors, chem ical weapons, basically anything chem ical or whatever
is re lated to this site. But for the sake of those who may or may not have some glassware or lab g e a r , s u c h a s a b u n s e n
burner, we will allow the use of any labware or glassware ,whethe r you have it or n ot. W e will avoid the use of very expensive
intricate or hard to find lab/glassware, but anything else is allowed.
H e r e i s a n e x a m ple and I will start the gam e, now tell m e what you would make, and list the directions you would take.
Sulp huric Acid (H2So4)

H e x a m i n e / / m e t h e n a m i n e / h e x a m ethylenetetram i n e ( C 6 H 1 2 N 4 )
Am monium Nitrate (NH4No3)
Urea ((NH2)2CO)
Methyl Salicylate (C8H8O3)
Glycerine (C3H5(OH)3)
Ethylene Glycol (C 2 H 4 ( O H ) 2 )
Methyl Alcohol (CH3O H)
Creatine (C4H9N3O2)
Hydrochloric Acid (HCL)
D i m e t h o a t e ( C 5 H 1 2 N O 3PS2)
Lead (Pb)
A n a b o l i c s t e r o i d s T e s t o s t e r o n e P r o p i o n a t e , ( C 1 9 H 2 8 O 2 )Prop Ester(C2H5 C O 2 ) )
T r e n b o l o n e A c e t a t e ( C 1 8 H 2 2 O 2 ) Acetate ester (C2H3O2)
Letrozole (C17H11N5 )
T a m o x i f e n C itrate (C26H29NO )
Tadalafil Citrate (C22 H19N3O4 )
Isotretinoin (C20H28O2)
Tolu e n e ( C 7 H 8 )
Acetone (CH3CO CH3)
Potassium Permangenate (KMnO4)
Sodium Bicarbonate (NaHCO3)
S o d i u m H y d r o x i d e ( N a O H)
TetraHydroFuran (C4H8O)
Sodium Hypochlorite (NaOCl)
Oxalic Acid (C2H2O 4) Anhydrous
Am m o n i u m H y d r o x i d e ( N H 3 O H ? ? ? )
W ith this list of chemicals, what would you make? think far down the list, trying to get as far away from t h e b a s e m aterials as
possible.
This is a bit m essy But I am just m a k i n g a g a m e h e r e .
Ok here goes one of my many ideas:::

Tolu e n e - P o t a s s i u m p e r m a n g e n a t e + w a t e r R eflux , FIlter< than HCL to acidify=Benzoic Acid
Benzoic Acid+sodium Bicarbon ate(neutralize the acid)=sodium B e n z o a t e
S o d i u m b e n z o a t e + S o d i u m H y d r o x i d e = b e n z e n e a n d s o d i u m carbonate
Benzene +Sulphuric acid and nitric acid= Nitrobenze
Tin And Nitrobenzene+HCL,reflux +than add NAhydroxide,,, Distill off Aniline
Aniline+oxalic acid=O x a n i l i d e
oxanilide and Nitric acid yields Tetranitro-oxanilide.
Now try to do s o m ething like this using m y chem ical list, or create your own list and have others have a crack at it, and try to
have crack at others lists. Try to avoid really basic things like m a k i n g A c e t o n e p e r o x i d e . E v e n s o m e o f t h e m ost complicated
procedures a re OTC here in North Ame rica, with a bit(we ll Alot) of reading and mo re reading. I believe I actually developed an
O T C m ethod for VX using Strictly otc products from North America. I will try to find the readme I build a couple years back.
M a y b e t h i s g a m e is stupid and won't go anywhere but you can't know without trying right? If anyone has any ideas on how to
im prove this or whate ver let m e know!!! Have fun , Learn, and share!!!
iHME July 4th, 200 8, 05:48 PM

This seems like a good idea. W hy not also make a "reverse" version where people are en couraged to synthesize semi-
c o m m on chem icals and posting instructions?
It would help new mem b e r s p l u s g i v e p e o p l e s o m ething to practice with.
crazywhiteguy July 4th, 200 8, 06:29 PM

I t d o e s s e e m like a good idea, but i cant help but think that things like this would help the governm ents of the world add
chemicals to their 'restricted' list. That would hurt our hobby if anyone caught buying acetone without filling out a request form
would be labeled as a drug manufacturer or terrorist.
FlamingPope July 7th, 200 8, 11:33 AM

iHME: I believe the sole purpose of this forum is what you just m e n t i o n e d , a n d i f y o u m eant it in a sarcastic way, I apologize
and laugh at the ironicalness of this th read.
Crazywhiteguy has a good point, but the governm ent will take all consequences into thought before banning chemicals, like
effect on industry, possible alternatives. Even so, we all can m a k e c h e m icals literally out o f air, so restrictions are quite
useless.
Enkidu July 7th, 200 8, 10:15 PM
L i k e t h e g o v ' t b a n s c h e m icals based on our recom m endations. :rolleyes:
crazywhiteguy July 8th, 200 8, 12:50 AM

W ith the way things a re going, it looks like everything will require a stack of request form s and lice nses. Even soccer m o m s
carpooling will have to take a pedo-screening test soon. I doubt that they will eve r outright ban com m o n t h i n g s l i k e p a i n t
thinner, although they may make it im possibly hard for us hobbyists to get.
L i k e t h e g o v ' t b a n s c h e m icals based on our recom m endations. :rolleyes:
They regulated nitrom e t h a n e a n d a m monium nitrate after m ultiple bom bings. Th ey m ight in the future cut out the bom b i n g s
and go straight to the fascist rulings.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Limestone Ammonium Nitrate (LAN) problem
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noelboy121 July 7th, 2008, 09:04 AM

Please could someone help?
I purchased a bag of Limestone Ammonium Nitrate (LAN), it is the only fertilizer in my country containing AN and it has a 28 percent nitrogen content. I noticed this fertilizer has
no numbers on the side like 34.0.0. After extracting the fertilizer by dissolving in hot water and letting the solution cool and filtering off the limestone I was left with what I
considered to be AN solution, I say this because the liquid (once most of the water had been boiled off) crystallized fairly quickly once exposed to a cold dish I used for
evaporating. I dried the powder in a warm oven only to find that it did not burn when mixed with sugar as so many have reported it doing.
Is this because I have a lower nitrogen content than the fertilizers available in other countries, or is this because AN does not burn when mixed with powdered sugar. I ask this
question because I cant find any information on this specific fertilizer, the closest I get is chalk ammonium nitrate which does have numbers on the bag thus telling me I have
something different.
Also will this specific fertilizer be sufficient for making APAN.
I ask that you please don't ban me for this as I have done loads of searching and have not found an answer yet.
Thank you in advance

You searched, you came up empty. The question is intelligently framed. The subject interesting and has bearing on continued material gathering, etc. It is also challenging as it
may have been confused with Lime-nitrogen in search engines.
Frankly I believe the question not only has merit but the answer may be quite important. What country (& area within that country) are we talking about here? Who is the
manufacturer?
ChippedHammer July 7th, 2008, 11:48 AM

Can we have a brand name or some photos of the product?
noelboy121 July 7th, 2008, 01:01 PM

I am from South Africa, the product I am Reffering to is labled Wonder and marketed by Efekto (www.efekto.co.za). after speaking to someone at their offices I was informed
that the numbering for this product was LAN 3.2.1 (28)Nitrogen I hope this is enough info, let me know if you need anymore. Here is a photo of the product.
http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m406/noelboy121/07072008118.jpg
PS thanx for the speedy response

I know KNO3 will burn when mixed with sugar, which is a common mixture for homemade smoke bombs. AN and powdered sugar is actually an explosive mixture, but I doubt
it would burn. I could be wrong but, try some other tests such as solubility, melting point, ect.
You could even just check to see if an endothermic reaction results when it is dissolved in water. Dissolve X amount of your filtered powder in X amount of room temperature
water, place a thermometer in the solution and record the change in temp. If the temperature decreases drastically, you probably have AN. Don't try only one test, do several
to make sure you have the right stuff. Good luck :cool:
AUK2k7 July 7th, 2008, 04:24 PM

I think that your problem is that when extracting the AN from the limestone AN mixture, you put it in hot water, so surely the ammonium nitrate would react with the water
and leave you with the powder.
FUTI July 7th, 2008, 04:35 PM

IIRC 880g AN disolves in 100g of H2O. What amount of water did you used? How much crystaline product did you get? What is the expected amount of AN based on nitrogen
percent stated for the product you started with. Report some math back here where people can help you. Also play with AN with more care.
I remember that I seen an TV story after Oklahoma federal building explosion where one chemist working for some agricultural firm that produces fertilizers claimed that he had
patented a way to render AN from fertilizers inactive for ANFO use. I don't remember did he said making fertilizer inactive or preventing the fertilizer to be an source of
extractable AN (which seems to me as an almost impossible task). I think he said something about clays of some kind used in that process (I guess he used some
montmorilonite or bentonite just to make it insensitive for explosive use).

Alright I have done the following tests. I dissolved an amount of AN into an equal amount of H2O at room temperature, the water temp fell from 15 degrees to 4 degrees in
approximatly 5 seconds. Next I proceeded to melt some AN in a small pot, unfortunatly my thermometer only goes as high as 125 degrees but i did observe the thermometer
slowing down when it reached 120 which in my experience with this thermometer tells me that it was nearing the correct temp, probably another 10 degrees at the most would
be the correct temp(130 - 135) if you know what I mean. So I am pretty sure i have AN. My question is as follows will the fact that I have AN of a 28 percent nitrogen content
affect this products ability to explode as AN 34 percent would, and if so what is there that I can do about it. Like I said in my previous post the is all we get here in my shit hole
of a country and for me to stop this research now would most certainly break my heart considering how many hours I have put into it. Any help would be appreciated.
With regards to your question FUTI i will notify the company and ask them what the expected amount of AN is per kilo of the product based on the nitrogen content. I presume
thats what you are looking for correct. Thank you all for your help you guys rock.
fiknet July 8th, 2008, 06:14 AM

As said before I don't think AN/Sugar burns like the KNO3 equivalent. You could also try a more practical way ;) eg. Make an ANxx composition and see how well it dets/if at
all which will give you an idea of how usable this AN is.
tomu July 8th, 2008, 07:24 AM

Have a look at this :
www.suidwes.co.za/wesmark/safety/LAN.pdf
kinda MSDS for LAN. It states that the fertilizer contains 80 % AN and 20 % Calcium Magnesium Oxide.
A google search of: "limestone ammonium nitrate fertilizer" listed the site at the first page of search results.

Thanks guys, I will be conducting some tests with AP in very small amounts and will post my results accordingly. According to the pdf TOMU posted Sasol claim the product is
explosive when mixed with organic and fuel oils which is somewhat of a relief. Once again thanks for all your help.

I remember that I seen an TV story after Oklahoma federal building explosion where one chemist working for some agricultural firm that produces fertilizers claimed that he had
patented a way to render AN from fertilizers inactive for ANFO use.
I remember that on alt.engineering.explosives Jerry Hurst went ballistic on that one (this was before he got tired of posting & had health problems). He de-bunked that one
with a single long post and named the patent and "inventor". He was furious as the solution (pun intended) was completely mythical.
Ammonium nitrate is basically a damn tough product to make nonexplosive. That's why the "Fertilizer Institute" started "Be Aware For America" and then pushed Calcium
Nitrate on the tobacco farmers. The remedy came in the form of Calcium Nitrate & got them to stop taking heat from various sources. However; ammonium nitrate is still
available in truck deliveries; The F.I. just didn't want it bagged.
An unproven situation in the USA developed in 2001. Many large stores started on their own (Home Depot) to stop any and all products that got named in a letter from a
source within the Clinton administration.
These situational response actually started from instances of experimentation by mostly young people playing with energetics rather than actual terror issues. The story of
powdered aluminum is actually very strange. It was said by several news releases that a great deal of this material was in the "Branch Davidian compound" and that was what
brought on the vicious fire when ATF agents fired burning tear gas shells. It also became public through a large national paper (Washington Post?) that the purchase was made
through a pyrotechnics manufacturer (named as FireFox!).
I have since researched this and did find a news account that came damn close but lost the name of the newspaper. The unusual effort of the CPSC in collusion with the Justice
Dept (via "The Letter") did seem a little extreme for such a thing unless there was some background into what "Military" or "explosives-grade aluminum" powder was. The
general public just does not know these things without an advertising agency-level popular news story being promulgated through the media.
Effective "Big Lies" always have a grain of truth to make them appear believable.

noelboy121 - Ammonium Nitrate has a set amount of nitrogen in it. It is impossible to have pure Ammonium Nitrate with a lesser nitrogen concentration than other pure
Ammonium Nitrate.
In other words, Ammonium Nitrate is Ammonium Nitrate is Ammonium Nitrate.
That PDF that was posted seems a little....off.
See, Ammonium Nitrate in water should be basic, but the "MSDS" lists it as having a pH of 6. Also, I ran a search for the CAS number of the so called "Calcium Magnesium
Oxide" and that was a no show. If it indeed has Calcium Oxide and Magnesium Oxide in it, then the respective hydroxides should salt out of solution fairly easily if it is 20%
(low Ksp values) which can then be decanted off to give a mostly ammonium nitrate solution.
If it contains limestone as the name states then that too should be insoluble in water. An interesting question you ask.
When any quantity is dissolved in water (up to the maximum solubility of AN), are there any undissolved solids?

Well Alexires, when I disovled the solution in warm water I was eventually left with a grey residue that lay at the bottom of the solution, this must obviously be the lime stone
and something else. I now for the first time understand what AN really is and can honestly say I was not aware that AN is AN is AN regardless of packaging or quantity. I was
led to believe that my product was of a lesser quality (28 percent nitrogen) as apposed to the 34 percent sold world wide (with the exeption of my country of course).
Thank you for clearing that up. I hope to conduct some test this weekend should my schedule allow it. To all of you thanks again for all help, stay safe.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Randomness
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ChippedHammer July 9th, 2008, 12:46 PM

While googling for a few things (heating mantle) I found a interesting PDF aimed at people working in pharmaceutical and chemical supply stores. At the end they had a few
group training situations.
THE TELEPHONE ENQUIRY
A suburban branch of a large chemical distribution company. The internal

Setting:
sales staffer, Gina, has been with the company for several years and is
quickly suspicious of B.
Gina: Barret Chemicals, can I help you?
B: Yes I wanted to place an order for some Phenylacetic

Acid.
Gina: Do you have an account with us sir?
B: No. Is that necessary?
Gina: For that particular chemical yes.
B: And that would be the case everywhere else?
Gina: Yes pretty much so. You would realise of course that its a
Category 1 chemical.
B: How do you mean?
Gina: Well sir we cant take an order from you unless you have an account with us.
B: Oh well thats fine. Ill open an account then. You do stock Phenylacetic Acid
then?
Gina: Well we wouldnt have it on our shelves right now. Id have to check on the
computer for you. If we do have to get it in for you there would probably be
about a week s delay before we could deliver. How much were you wanting to
order?
B: We need 15 kilos. What is it a kilo?
Gina: Well youre looking at 500 dollars per kilo so that would be 7,500.
B: Fine. Does it always take that long to get in? I mean we need it pretty quickly. Cant you speed it up a bit?
Gina: Im afraid not. As I said Im not even 100% sure of its

availability. But I can check with the warehouse fairly quickly on that if you
want me to.
B: Yes please. When could I know if its available?
Gina: I could ring you back in 15 minutes if that suits you.
B: It would probably be a lot easier if I rang you back in 15. Im in and out so
you probably wouldnt catch me.
Gina: Well Im going to need some kind of contact if you want me to let you know
about availability.
B: I see. Well Ill give you my mobile number.

Its 018 333 3333.
Gina: And what was your name sir?
B: Andrew Parsons. But like I said Ill ring you back in about 15 minutes.
Gina: Well Ill be taking my break soon so Ill leave the details with Jenny Bishop.
Shes internal sales and can give you some more details about opening an
account. If Im not around you can speak to her. Do you want her direct
number?
B: Yeah! thatd be good.
Gina: Its 123 45678 (By prior arrangement this number could in fact be a Direct number to -a C ompany supervisor; Authority personnel or to the Drug Squad)
B: Thanks very much.
Gina: Youre welcome.
Seems like a perfectly normal order to me :)
At the end there was some useful information - a big list of what not to do
SOME INDICATORS OF SUSPICIOUS ORDERS OR ENQUIRIES
INDICATORS WHICH CAN BE USED BY INDUSTRY PERSONNEL

TO IDENTIFY SUSPECT CUSTOMERS OR CHEMICAL SHIPMENTS
- A new customer or unfamiliar representative of an established customer who deviates from previous ordering methods.
- A walk-in customer (personal appearance).
- An offer to pay an excessive price for certain chemicals or for rapid delivery.
- Cash payments, even for large purchases.
- Requests to have the merchandise delivered in non-commercial or unmarked packing.
- Purchases in small containers even when industrial use is claimed.
- Irregular ordering patterns.
- Unusual quantities ordered.
- Orders or purchases by persons or companies with no obvious need for these chemicals.
- Indications of intended use that is inconsistent with the chemical ordered.
- Merchandise that is collected with the purchasers own vehicle.
- Request for delivery by air freight.
- Delivery to a post office box or other incomplete address.
- Failure or unwillingness to supply a telephone number or an address.
- Lack of business acumen.
- Absence of standard business stationery.
- Reluctance to supply a written order.
- Orders for more than one precursor chemical.
- Orders to universities or well-known companies where the normal arrangements for ordering are used but delivery is requested to a specific individual.
- Orders to companies which are not known and cannot readily be traced in trade directories.
- Orders for chemicals with delivery instructions where the cost of delivery or routing exceeds the cost of the merchandise.
- An established customer who deviates from previous orders or ordering methods.
- A customer who has difficulty in pronouncing chemical names, titles of equipment, etc.
- A customer who is vague about the company address, telephone number and reason for desiring a listed chemical.
- A customer who prefers to pay by cashiers cheque, postal money order, etc.
- A customer who is not a member of a trade, professional, or business association.
- A customer who furnishes false or suspicious addresses, telephone numbers, references etc.
- A customer whose communication either by telephone, mail or other means is not
conducted or prepared in a professional manner.
- A customer who requests other unusual methods or routes of shipment, or who provides unusual shipping, labelling or packing instructions.
- A customer who purchases unusual quantities or combinations of chemicals or glassware in contrast with customary practice and usage.
- Use of a freight forwarder as ultimate consignee.
- Use of intermediate consignee(s) whose location or business are incompatible with the end-users nature of business.
- Evasive responses to any questions, or responses that indicate a lack of basic knowledge of the industry, or inability to supply information on whether listed chemicals are for
domestic use or export.

Nice, it looks like "Mr.B" there is a jack ass.
I have ordered a few chems from companies that require an account. Before calling, I always have everything thought out ahead of time and know the rules before fumbling
around like in the post you found. Social engineering can be a big part of the home experimenters realm :D
Cobalt.45 July 17th, 2008, 09:57 AM

I believe "business acumen" to be one of the best ways to "socially engineer" yourself (along with a gift for gab) into most any supplier's inventory.
A while ago, there was a thread on obtaining samples from various manufacturers that illustrates the willingness of some companies to deal with phone contacts.
More here: http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=5072&highlight=free+samples
Once a modicum of trust has been established, one can often turn that into a tool for acquiring "sample" quantities of what-ever at little or no cost, or an order for even larger
amounts.
But as stated by Rbic, you must have your rap down, complete w/company name, addy, contact info, etc. This info need not be valid, mind you- in many cases you need only
to convince the associate on the other end that you're legit.

Ah yes, the wonderful samples you can get! On one occasion, I got two .5 gallon samples of Ethylene Diamine and Triethylene Tetramine for FREE. I'm assuming most of you
can guess what those are for :D
But yes, samples can be an awesome thing. Its always good to leave them hanging after you get the sample sent. Say something like "Thank you, we will try it out and see
how it performs. We'll be in touch with you soon".

*laugh* I found 4kg of PE available for free as a "sample". What a laugh that was.
Sampling is truly a gift from god, and it also helps to build your credibility as well as improve relations with certain companies.
A good thing to do when engaging in some social engineering is to make things personal. If you buy from a small company, remember the name of the sales rep, ask for them
personally over the phone, build a relationship with them.
This does two things: It helps to stop them from hiding behind the company name (and reporting you), and also may, in the future, help you skip some of the tedious steps in
getting certain chems, equipment and may allow you to ask for assistance with certain things (the last sample of Pt/Ir you sent didn't work exactly the way we expected. What
other catalysts for polymerisation do you have, John?)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C omposition Equation
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FlamingPope July 19th, 20 08, 12:2 8 PM

I've searched this forum front to back with no sign of an equatio n which helps in determ ining the right amount of reactants
needed in a reaction.
E x a m ple: You want exactly 5 grams/kilogram s of flashpowder, h owever you don't want to waste any of your valued m a g n e s i u m
in the process.
I took it upon myself to derive an equation which does so. I'll post the proof later if this is not deleted, or banned.
1) balance your equation.

2) plug and chug below: for a two reactant reaction, but can be expanded to fit any num ber of reactants
x = total com p o s i t i o n n e e d e d
y = total am o u n t o f r e a c t a n t 1 n e e d e d ( g e n e r a l e q u a t i o n, just switch around the m olar m ass and coefficient)
a = m olar mass of reactant 1
b = m olar mass of reactant 2
c = m olar coefficient of reactant 1 in balanced equation
d = m olar coefficient of reacta nt 2 in balanced equation
y = x [ (ac) / sum of all (ac + bd) ]
Note: This can be used for any number of reactants; I chose two reactants for sim plicity. For more reactants change the first
'ac' to fit nth reactant required, and sum up all of the reactants' (m olar m a s s * m olar coefficient).
Have fun saving time and materials :cool:
stephenb25 July 20th, 20 08, 10:3 3 AM

I think it'd be easier to just do the molar equations generally than use that.
Other than that I have a program that can do all that for me as well. All I do is put in reactants and products and desired
weig hts.
FlamingPope July 20th, 20 08, 11:5 7 PM

Did not know there was a program which did that. But you fail to realize what this equation does, its com ple tely different from
"given so m uch carbo n, how m uch KNO 3 a n d s u l f u r i s n e e d e d ? "
Instead its "I want a com bined weight of 'so an d so' grams, how m uch of each (carbon, KNO3 and sulfur) do I need?"
But if you have a program which does so, please attach a copy, it would save m ore tim e when people start m e s s i n g a r o u n d
with 5 to 7 reactants at once.
SafetyLast July 28th, 20 08, 02:1 6 PM

I have always just used molar m asses, but if you could create a program that too k into account for exam p l e t h e e x p e r i m e n t a l
yields com pared to the theore tical including regards to density, phase changes and vapor pressure and how they affect the
chemical equilibrium it could save a lot of tim e a n d e f f o rt. I have notebooks completely filled with chem ical equations that
could be elim inated by this so rt of app .

Flam i n g P o p e , I m ight be able t write such a thing but you wouldn't like it. I think if you tin k e r e d e n o u g h y o u c o u l d g e t a w e b b y
form (using javascript) that would do it for generic inorganic stuff.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Global Population control. Why
not?
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mike-hunt July 20th, 2008, 06:46 AM

I am starting this thread expecting to be slammed and at the risk of sounding like yet another lunatic extremist . Here is my
2c worth anyway.
Here in Australia kangaroos sometimes reach plague numbers so large numbers are culled if this is not done the local
population will die from over grassing.
Can a large scale cull of the human race be a solution to the global problems of famine lack of resources and global warming
to name a few ?
It seems here in Australia as I am sure is the same in many other places that the more intelligent professional types are
putting of starting families in favour of furthering their careers while the poorer unemployed by choice, drug addicted, or just
plain stupid are breeding like rabbits . I live on the edge of a public housing estate and see single mothers with 5 and more
kids most destined to be the next generation of criminals and single mothers. While I don't support killing them all as a
solution maybe super gluing closed their cunt's and chopping of their balls would be a start?
With all the population growth in the 3rd world and amongst the less intelligent is the devolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Biological_devolution)of the human race a possibility or at least a drop in the global average IQ?
Perhaps next time we send aid to the starving millions in Africa we should spike it with some kind of drug to sterilise the
masses and prevent the birth of the next generation of babies doomed to a short life of slowly starving to death.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Population Control Agenda

Stanley K. Monteith, M.D.
Http://www.radioliberty.com/pca.htm
Body Count: Population and its enemies - the population-control movement is gaining steam
National Review, Oct 25, 1999 by Stephen Moore
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_20_51/ai_56220684

That plan sounds all good and well except for that little thing called human rights...
Are you ready to get sterilized for the human race's wellbeing?
And once it was started, where does it end?
I'm not totally bashing the idea, it has its merits if done right, but I don't think it will ever be done by people. The bacteria
and viruses are getting better and better at it every day :).
Tom Sawyer July 20th, 2008, 07:35 AM

I think it is an abominable idea to "spike" aid to sterilize a troubled third-world population. In my opinion that's only about
half a click up from the WWII-era Deutsche National Socialist "Final Solution". No bashing intended, but as a hard-core
libertarian, I'm disagreeing with that point of view.
If it makes you feel any better, I have heard whispers that such a program is already on the cards and all the "excess
baggage" may be disposed of. BTW: Under this supposed plan, you and I and just about everyone we know are "excess
baggage" along with the poor Africans you were talking about. You cannot be a useful consumer in a First World society if your
earning power is destroyed by a major Depression. You then become a useless eater simply taking up space.
Of course, that's assuming the coming resource wars don't don't purify certain parts of the earth by fire first.
Ygarl July 20th, 2008, 11:37 AM

It's very interesting, of course as an idea. The major issue is simply that if you check the history of rate of deaths/births over
the last 20 years or so, disease is doing a supremely efficient job of doing this for you in Africa.
Since this is a theorectical discussion void of any real application or moral contraints, I believe you could accomplish the same
thing here as well in the First- and Second-world nations as well by simply applying (temporary) sterilisation meds to low-end
foodstuff such as fast food, pre-packaged snacks, etc.
Most of us geeks would care less in the long-term as when WE want to have children we know we will have to get our "game"
up so to speak by eating properly.
Realistically, applying mandatory birth controls to places like South/Central America and other locations who believe birth
control is "evil" or that having a lot of children is a "blessing from the Gods" would have an excellent long-term curbing effect
on poplulation.
This would curb POPULATION admirably, what really needs to happen is the largest consumers of resources (something like 1/
5 the population use 4/5 of the oil, for instance) need to curb their usage because totally wiping the other 4/5 the population
would have an insignificant mid-to-long-term effect on the resources consumed.
You want to save some for humans in the future?

* Walk when you don't absolutely NEED to drive.
* Don't buy Chinese things, South American fruit, etc. Get things near home.
* Make things yourself.
* KEEP your old PC/Car/Furniture/misc. instead of replacing them when they seem "old" compared to your friends' ones or the
ones you see on TV. Put XP or Linux on instead.
* Support Nuclear/Solar/Wind/etc etc energy.
* Support birth control in up-and-coming societies about to join that "1/5" in using everything up.
You could eliminate every living human on Africa and still only get a few more years of oil, and your Big Mac would cost you
exactly the same as it does now.
Does anyone honestly think those poor souls in Africa are using up YOUR food and oil?
Realistically: it's very likely indeed it is the opposite way around...

You want to save the world's resources for humanity?
1) Kill every human in the New World, Old World and China, or
2) Just stop using everything up so damn much...
More money is spent on highway maintenance in the US every year than all the entire World's aid to Africa put together .
Those Africans are NOT eating your french fries and driving around in their Mercs with your oil...
We are.
Kaydon July 20th, 2008, 02:56 PM

That plan sounds all good and well except for that little thing called human rights...
Are you ready to get sterilized for the human race's wellbeing?
And once it was started, where does it end?
I'm not totally bashing the idea, it has its merits if done right, but I don't think it will ever be done by people. The bacteria
and viruses are getting better and better at it every day :).
Human race? We're a species. And we're all different. We should sterilize those not deserving of the right to reproduce.
Before anyone says that would require too much man-power and resources.. If the Nazi's can supposedly systematically
execute 6 million Jews in a few short years, then there is no reason a Gestapo-esque force couldn't sterilize the worthless lives
of the world.
Emil July 20th, 2008, 04:59 PM

Yes, it is not the ones in the 3rd world countries that we have to worry about too much. Those poor souls are already living
terrible deprived lifes. What we should do is take all the scum from the 1st world countries and destroy them. Or at the very
least, sterilize them so they cannot reproduce and spread their hideous existences. The hardest part here is where does the
red line go?? What seperates the good from the bad?? This is impossible to state exactly and would be hard to seperate the
two, but I would say capital punishment for all paedophiles and child molesterers to start with. This should get rid of a nice
number and free up our prisons. Cold blooded murderers can go this route aswell. Of course the problem is what if one of
those cold blooded murders was fighting for his freedom and was done over by a bent cop. This is where this law would be
hard to use, and then it wouldn't be fair.
To sterilize all the benefit leeches, low life pykeys who just keep reproducing and can't seem to manage a job would be a good
start. These are the types of people that need to be killed off. All the slutty single moms who go and have 4 or 5 kids just so
they get a free council house and loads of benefits. Get rid of them and their kids. The kids will only grow to be like them.
Human rights... They are pathetic really. They prevent so much justice being served and are a terrible excuse for many
criminals and low lifes to be given an easy time. "He can't possibly go to jail and serve 20 years for raping and killing that
defensless little girl, he gets clostrophobic in small spaces and won't be able to survive in his 12 by 6 cell." Unfortuanetly
sentences like this aren't actually far form the truth at all, and there is always some piece of shit willing to defend an obvious
criminal and his inhumane acts because of one thing called money. Of course the criminal wasn't thinking about the little girls
rights when he was torturing her, but what does she matter, shes gone now right?? People who defend these types of people
are no better than the criminals themselfs.
Hitlers ideas were genius and pathetic at the same time. You can't kill people because of their beliefs or religion. Religion on
the whole is pathetic, so there is no need singling one type out. Opinion is a freedom. However you should be able get rid of
people for what they are are. Get rid of the jews?? and people with who don't have blonde hair?? Nonsense. Get rid of the scum
who have bought this world to its knees.
Anformula July 20th, 2008, 05:21 PM

This topic invariably enters into politically distasteful ground, so it never gets addressed in any meaningful way. In fact, in this
politically correct world, it is now forbidden even to mention the fact that the global population is out of control. I remember in
the 70s, when the world population was roughly three billion, that overpopulation was seen as an immense problem and
openly discussed. No more..... Now the population has more than doubled in 30 years, and no one will talk about the
situation. Does that fact alarm anyone besides me?
Political sensibilities aside, the planet will only support so many people. In terms of simply keeping people alive, I will admit it
can probably handle more than are here now. But the real question is, what sort of life will it be? Do any of us want to live in a
world where all available space is either crowded cities or agricultural land? What effects would this have on the planet that we
are too ignorant and short sighted to see? For my part, I think there are way too many people already.....
Extermination of existing people is not the answer. Time will take care of that. What is needed is sensible global birth control.
We on this planet are so far from having any chance of that happening at this point, that discussing details is a waste of time.
We will eventually have to confront this problem. Based on what I have seen of the human race, nothing will be done until we
have absolutely no other choice. When that happens, it scares me to think what point the planet will have reached. I am glad I
will be gone by then.
Bert July 20th, 2008, 05:53 PM
You don't have to do a darn thing to control world population. A massive die off is coming, I guarantee it. WHERE you live will
probably have more to do with your survival than your intelligence or any other intrinsic worth you may or may not have,
however- I would suggest you be located farther from any city than a starving person can walk in two days, just for a start.
mike-hunt July 20th, 2008, 08:53 PM

Population growth in African nations is still the high despite HIV And famine.
Also china's population is climbing despite there one child policy.
Perhaps we should look to countries such as Belgium for the answer they now have a zero population growth.
Birth and Death Rates by Country

Http://encarta.msn.com/media_701500528/birth_and_death_rates_by_country_or_region.html
I am aware that this is a dangerous idea and the agendas of some of these pro population control groups is truly frightening.
who could we trust to implement such a program? Not our politicians as their all concerned with reelection and would never
suggest such an unpopular idea . Ideally every country should be responsible for their own back yards.
As for sterilizing criminal types as someone who follows his own rules I my self would have to get the snip.
Bugger July 20th, 2008, 09:03 PM

Mike-Hunt, - ask Alexires about what to do about it in Australia - see his "Absolutely Disgusting" thread.
As for Africa, a combination of AIDS (especially in South Africa, Botswana, Swaziland, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi, Tanzania,
Zambia, Zimbabwe), drought/starvation (especially in Somalia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Chad, Mali, Djibouti), Mugabe (Zimbabwe),
and civil war/whore (especially in Congo/Zaire, Sudan, and Somalia), are already doing the job, without much need for
contraceptives or euthenasia.
Alexires July 20th, 2008, 09:20 PM

Well said, Kaydon. I agree with Bert as well. I do think that day is coming, but in the event that we are all wrong and somehow
this dead horse called society manages to flog itself just a little further, birth control should be introduced.
Perhaps instead of mass sterilisation of the unworthy masses, a blanket restriction on birth of only 2 children per couple. Thus
the population has no choice but to remain the same or decrease.
Those saying that mass extermination in Africa doesn't need to happen because of AIDS might want to think about that a little
more. AIDS is like nothing we have ever seen before, and I would be very shocked to find out that it wasn't a product of post
WWII research (or even WWII research).
I think that sterilising criminals or killing them is a stupid idea. Honestly, who deems them criminals? The State. Do you trust
The State to make a balanced and unbiased verdict against it's "enemies"?
Ygarl July 21st, 2008, 07:14 AM

Population growth in African nations is still the high despite HIV And famine.
Also china's population is climbing despite there one child policy.
And...
You don't have to do a darn thing to control world population. A massive die off is coming, I guarantee it.
And furthermore:
Do any of us want to live in a world where all available space is either crowded cities or agricultural land? What effects would
this have on the planet that we are too ignorant and short sighted to see? For my part, I think there are way too many people
already.....
Both are true, but as with all statistics and other damned lies they do not tell the whole story...
The RATES of death/birth in Africa are still high - true. However, the trends of these show quite dramatically that these two
rates versus each other (the overall population trend, if you like) are dropping and this rate is increasing. Some of the nifty
statistical tools shown on TED illustrate this very clearly.
Also, a mass die-off in Africa, Bangladesh, etc etc. is fairly plausible.
My point remains this: these poor buggers do NOT hog your oil, hamburgers, Land Rovers (or Ford trucks if you like), internet
bandwidth or anything else of yours.
If you are concerned for what is left of the world and its resources, look around. Look who is REALLY using them so your
children cannot.
I guarantee you will find these Land Rovers, McDonalds, and internet cafes on your city streets, my internet-using friends.
Let's put it this way: no Americans, Germans, Swedes, British, Portuguese, etc. people are going to starve due to the West's
sudden interest in biofuels taking all the grain away. Your BLT may cost you more, but you can always eat cake instead - so to
speak.
No - REALLY.
We are stealing from our own futures, people. No poor dirt-grubbers are doing it for you.
At the end of the day here's the rub:

Sure, you may mostly be in urban or agricultural areas, with no green spaces around - and I feel for you (and myself). The UK
is fairly jammed full herein the Southeast.
But in perspective: you're not looking around you are the desolate burned ground, wondering if you are going to have to eat
your dead relatives. Let's keep a bit of perspective. Sure: you may not have to drive so far to reach the next town as you used
to, or may have to grab a train for 30 minutes to see a forest but get a grip.
When our oil runs out (or whatever next major disaster takes place in our lives)... those poor bastards will probably never even
notice.
I say again: our 1/5 is using 4/5 of everything as it is... killing off the other 4/5 won't make a squat's worth of difference in
the long run.
If someone made a suburbia-killing virus/weapon the world would be far better off. That would solve the overcrowded cities in
the west, overuse of resources and HUGE increase in farmland in one fell swoop.
Let me tell a story about a friend of mine in Ohio.

He was an old man way back in 1983 (about 70-75 years old...) He grew up in Celina, Ohio - a small town about a hour from
Dayton, Ohio... in other words about as far as you can be from ANYWHERE in the Midwestern USA.
I asked him why the steeples were so damned high on the church about 10 miles out of town in a small village called
Carthegena, near the local seminary.
He told me that when he was a boy, they built this stupendous 300-foot steeple on this tiny church for this simple reason: in
the 1920's, western Ohio was almost totally forested - as far as the eye could see...
(Anyone who has ever been to Central Indiana or Western Ohio would think you were crazy for saying this. You can stand in
some places in this area, with the ground so flat you can see 50 miles in every direction and not see more than 10 trees of
any size in any one place not lining someones driveway on some farm.)
He said the steeple was basically built so people living in the area didn't get lost walking from one place to another because
this was the only landmark you could see above the woods for miles and miles!
He said this forest was completely gone before he was 35 years old. The leveling of this forest is now replaced by hundreds of
thousands of miles of flat, souless soybeans, rape and cows.
I doubt there's a forest worth the name within a hundred miles of Carthegena, Ohio now.
Who's stealing our food and oil?

We are.
Rbick July 21st, 2008, 10:16 AM

I like where you're coming from ygarl. The Western nations, particularly the US, uses A LOT of natural resources in comparison
to the rest of the world. Hey, we gotta make sure our SUV that gets 10 mpg can get us to the movies or to the bar! Who cares
if I use 30 gallons of gas every 5 days. This was obviously sarcasm illustrating our false sense of need for more resources
than we actually do.
On the topic of population density, given the size of the United States, we really don't have that many people, especially when
you start getting out in the Western states. I remember driving on highway 50 for 3 hours through the salt flats of Nevada and
Utah. I maybe saw 1 or 2 cars during that 3 hours, otherwise I was completely alone. I actually feared running out of gas until
I came to a small town that had been built in the bottom of an old quarry. Talk about some strange folks ;) There are many
desolate places in this country. This is probably another reason we use so many resources. With a country so vast and
relativley spread out, it takes more resources to get from one place to the other, or to ship goods from one place to the other.
In Europe, if you have relatives living in another country, just catch the train. In the US, you either have to drive a great
distance and spend lots money on fuel or fly, same story. Hell, the US actually uses CDMA for cell phones, which is less
efficient than more modern types of broadcast but is still used because it has a greater range. It hasn't been improved all that
much since the early 90s! Compare this to Europe, where you probably aren't going to find any CDMA towers.
As for global population, I have a simple solution. Nature will find a way. It always has. There will come a time when the Earth
will balance everything out again, and LOTS of people will die. This is all part of a cycle that has been happening before our
race came to be. We will either kill each other off, a new ice age will begin, a meteor will hit the Earth and kill 90% of all life, or
something of that crazy nature. Some think it has already begun, and maybe it has. We'll see...
Combustable Wishes July 21st, 2008, 09:31 PM

Some valid points about resource limitations and usage have been made in this thread and thats all well and good, but
wouldnt it be more useful and interesting to not just discuss the MULTIPLE CAUSES of the problems which face this planet, but
the solutions? I know people of mentioned steralization and, for lack of a better word, executions, but there has been little
talk of what it would take to get conscripted into those posistions, what, as Kaydon so bluntly put it, is the benchmark of those
"not deserving the right to reproduce"? and if the benchmark is at anyway questionable, the richer one is the more likely you
could sue your way out of it. And it cant be a single persons gross product income, as it would yet again depend on wealth in a
country where investing is the norm. IQ? some of the most brilliant people, on the far ranges of genetic differences, are
comparably stupid in things other than thier specialty, the best artist is not always the best mathimatician. Criminal history,
well i guess if you are stupid enough to try and get caught it is your fault, but what about race crimes like those against Martin
Luther King jr.? (if of you want to even try to say he is not an american hero, you obviously need to do more research into how
much he had to give up just to stand as the target of hate) The point being there are times when one has to fight the law
head on and man up to the consequences, and sometimes its just fun to shoplift and release a little stress :P also would only
felonies warrant sterilaztion or would certain misdemeanors mean it as well?
Besides the genetic diversity breeding brings about is nessecary to our survival as well.
And so it is left to the minds to cast a net with no holes and to stop before it is to late...
Alexires July 22nd, 2008, 02:41 AM

Combustable - I agree that sterilisation or execution is a slippery slope, for who makes the decisions? I doubt it will ever be
anyone that favours us...
That is why I suggested a two child maximum on all people. Best of both worlds....kind of. Population is limited and hopefully
begins to fall as a result.
I absolutely agree with Ygarl, hence why I support the above idea of 2 child max (not to mention I suggested it :p).
I think some of us are supportive of the execution/sterilisation of untermensch cultures (such as India/Pakistan/Africa/etc.) for
more personal reasons as opposed to solving the problem of our decadence.
Still doesn't change the fact I think the world would be a better place if those billions of people weren't breathing my air
:rolleyes:.
mike-hunt July 22nd, 2008, 02:46 AM

I have read Alexires "Absolutely Disgusting" thread. It accurately describes some of what angers me about my own community
and inspired me to further research population control as a global solution though it is something I have thought about many
times before.
Over population is something that needs to be dealt with before damage to the planet makes it uninhabitable . Possibly a
natural die off of the majority and perhaps the entire of the human race is on its way . If we look to Africa today this may also
be our future here in the first world . If it takes the death of 50% or 99% of the current population to insure the survival of the
future of the human race who would be prepared to sacrifice their own life or the life of their family ? There are also very few
capable of exterminating the majority of the human race . I guess the most likely out come is our own slow extinction .
Yes Africa may be consuming only a small percentage of our oil resources . A trip to any large Asian city and you will see, hear
and smell how this resource is needlessly wasted .
The deforestation of the planet is also a problem with South America the biggest offender Africa comes in the number two
position.
"Africa suffered the second largest net loss in forests with 4.0 million hectares cleared annually. Nigeria and Sudan were the
two largest losers of natural forest during the 2000-2005 period. "
World deforestation rates and forest cover statistics, 2000-2005
Http://news.mongabay.com/2005/1115-forests.html
Every country has its own unique problems with over consumption and over population needing there own unique solutions .
The Tree Huggers had it right when they said, "think globally and act locally" . I only hope that it isn't to late to prevent the
human race consuming its self into extinction.
Anformula July 22nd, 2008, 03:40 AM

Topics like this do so much to make me cynical.
We are light years away from reaching a point where there will be any level of international cooperation in an area such as this,
and globally is the only way that any meaningful results can be acheived.... And as I stated earlier, from a standard of living
and health of the planet standpoint, I believe there are too many people now.
I am not generally anti-religious, but when I see a huge family and hear from the parents, smiling insipidly, "it's god's will that
we have 10 children", it is all I can do to control myself.....
I truly believe in the cycle of evolution, followed by mass extinctions, with evolution then resulting in a new dominant species.
The dinosaurs dominated the planet for hundreds of millions of years, and it appears likely that their disappearance was due
to factors outside their control. Modern man has been around for roughly two million years. How long before we breed
ourselves to extinction, and what will be left of the planet when we do?
Secong Nature July 22nd, 2008, 09:11 PM

I found an interesting article in my Nat Geo, its not online but basically it shows a healthy coralm reef ecosystem, they work by
having a reverse pyramid, more predators than prey. The way it works is to have such a high refresh rate among the prey that
all the predators are fed, so if this works for the world then Mother Nature's carrying capacity may not have reached critical yet.
Though im hoping for a non-govt SHTF scenario to wipe out most of the human population, it seems better to have an
apocalypse than to have the population controlled through communism, which is really the only way to hold down a massive
population. Look at china, if they had a democracy shit would already be flying.
If you want someone to blame for the worlds state its white people (sorry Kaydon but its true), sure commie asia sucks but
look at the way that its supported such a huge population, besides you cant call them planet killers until you realise that all
the shit they produce ends up in your landfills.
For me the only problem with Africa is the fact that no one there cares about AIDS, mothers with it have 5 kids, 3 of them end
up with the virus and it keeps spreading. This isn't much of a problem except for the fact that theyre getting supported just
enough to live and spread the problem If aid programs included more education about AIDS or just mandatory sterilisation if
they want aid at all then africa could actually get better, as opposed to just a country on life support.
And another point to rant on is medicine, I personally believe in superior genetics, though im not going to do anything as far
as controlling an existing 'inferior' population.
I'd just rather that people think 'I'm 40, my sibling has down syndrome, I'm an athsmatic who takes 5 pills a day for
hereditary problems, maybe i shouldn't have kids'.
Chances are that their kids won't end up functioning very well as people or as members of society. Of course you can't even
raise awareness of this due to a new PC world but it'd be nice to see this in practice.
I (more or less) quote a native american - ' When the last fish has been caught, when the last tree has been cut down, when
the last river has been polluted, only then will we realise that money cannot be eaten'
Sorry about the length, I've been keeping this saved up for a while.
Gerbil July 22nd, 2008, 10:44 PM

mike-hunt's plan has one fatal flaw: it involves him getting killed or castrated. Quoted from another thread:
I have had some experience with recreational heroin use as a teen and was given the drug narcan to treat an overdose.
While I don't have a problem with this, it's a little ironic that someone who by his own account used to be a junkie is now
calling for the extermination/sterilisation of drug abusers.
I agree that there are plenty of people in this world who shouldn't be, but calling for state euthanasia is pretty stupid. Can you
define a 'worthless life'? Are you sure?
Anyone can be seen as worthless, and the chances are that the definition the that military police will use is one that will lead to
them breaking into your home and shipping your family off to a gas chamber. If a totalitarian regime is your idea of fun, go
live in North Korea.
Overpopulation will right itself naturally.
festergrump July 23rd, 2008, 12:55 AM

First of all, I would like to ask Combustable Wishes and Second Nature to start using paragraph breaks. It's so hard to read
your regurgitated Jew propaganda without them. :p :rolleyes:
Secondly, no (I repeat NO) problem would have occured to bring us to the discussion of this thread if the Jewish idea of
integration had been wiped out from the start. Segregation would be the key here. YOUR country would NOT be in the dilemna
it's in if it weren't for integration. The races that prospered would continue, and those that didn't would die off.
MLK was an idiot (and a rasist by his own standards), just like Jackson and Sharpton who want only to promote the nigger race
while doing NOTHING for humanity other than holding their hands out for the White man to kiss and fill with gold (taught by
the Jew for their own agenda). What he should have been working towards was the petitioning for the USA to cordon off a
section of the USA (and others might follow suit) for the niggers to live within and with their own government. We Americans
might have actually gone for that at the time. (We DID offer to send them home to Africa, but they refused, remember?).
The first thing that needs to be done about population control is segregation. Next is prohibiting interracial marriages/unions.
Every race must keep itself pure. You don't see the Jews or asians being so docile about another race interbreeding with their
own... but somehow this behavior is acceptable to them (Jews) for other races to engage in... does NOBODY even question
that???
Next, we cut off all aid to countries who are failing, even Israel. No help. Let all those countries falter and die for not being
able to work out the necessary things of life and prosperity. Political problems? Famine? Disease? WAR? So what. Deal with it
and don't hold your hand out. (Israel is a special case, they need to get their filthy hands out of everyone's government and
pocket or coin-purse, starting with the USA).
My whole point is that if everyone lived within their own section of racial acceptance, not only would there be less violence, but
there would be less people in the world because of the Jew ideal of breaking down racial barriers and promoting inter-racial
unions and inter-racial living (tensions) will have been abolished. There would be more progress toward a better future for
humanity, too.
The niggers, living in an entirely nigger state (how about a continent?), would likely wipe themselves out trying to body-climb
out of their corrupt shithole society which they made for themselves. The Jews, cut off from White America's aid would fall prey
to the Muslim middle-east and likely die. The Chinese, well... They'd survive. WHY? BECAUSE THEY DON"T AGREE WITH THE
JEW IDEA OF INTER-RACIALISM, WHICH THEY (The Jews) DON"T EVEN BELIEVE IN THEMSELVES, FOR THEIR RACE!!!
WTF... I may as well go ahead and say that anyone who is pro Israel; pro MLK, Jackson, and Sharpton; pro inter-racial
marriages; pro homosexuality; liberal piece of shit... you are my enemy. I stand for the White race only. Let others do for
themselves, for a change.
In short, there is no need for us to worry about global population before we worry about racial segregation. If we integrate, as
seen, we ALL lose.
Secong Nature July 23rd, 2008, 03:14 AM

I'll start using more breaks now, thanks festergrump, now about your ideas...
It seems that you forget the idea of big brother, he's white, gangs and crime have been around before black people, indeed
any kind of nigger.
I'm all fine for segregation, it just seems that a racial basis for it is too close minded. I'm white and you disagree with me
(must be my Jew-corrupted brain) so why can't you agree with a darkie?
Roguesci itself is segregated, not racially and it seems to be working. Any idiot, regardless of colour is kicked out and anyone
who seems to be functioning is kept, regardless of colour.
The other problem with racial segregation is the tendancy for inbreeding, nowadays the Arian race itself is a sign of more
recessive genes, pointing towards a common ancestor.
It's the mongrels and zebras who have genetic superiority when it comes to survival, just don't bring them up in a crack filled
poverty trap like the Bronx and they'll grow up to 'Do things for themselves'
Alexires July 23rd, 2008, 07:36 AM

Secong -
any kind of nigger.
Who says that big brother is white? The idea of Big Brother is just that, an idea. I would argue that the idea of Big Brother is
more prevalent in those untermensch shit-hole countries where the secret police is kicking in doors and taking people away.
Note that Aryan countries don't tend to have such measures or if they do, it has taken centuries for them to de-evolve from
the principles of freedom and liberty that they once possessed.
Why has this de-evolution of personal freedoms occurred? As fester has said, it is because of this multiculturalism bullshit. We
are trying to play by a set of moral rules that the other team doesn't follow. We believe in the rights of due process, right to
legal representation, etc and we have taken our understanding nature too far. They believe in explosives and 72 virgins (or
grandmas, depends how you read it). This leads to more and more draconian measures to protect ourselves against these
fuckers where as if we had remained segregated, then we wouldn't have had this problem in the first place.
I'm all fine for segregation, it just seems that a racial basis for it is too close minded. I'm white and you disagree with me
(must be my Jew-corrupted brain) so why can't you agree with a darkie?
Who said I can't agree with a darkie? Just like I can agree with various animals that perhaps jumping from the burning
building was a good idea, I can agree with a nigger.
While Roguesci might be segregated based upon intelligence, what happens if that intelligence was based upon skin colour?
We don't need to know that a troll is black, his inferiority makes itself known by his speech and degree of apparent
intelligence. Perhaps our personal racial stereotypes have been created because we have observed the treacherous nature of
the Jew, the idiotic nature of the Aboriginal, etc.
The niggers, living in an entirely nigger state (how about a continent?), would likely wipe themselves out trying to body-climb
out of their corrupt shithole society which they made for themselves. Look at Africa. They already do, eh? :rolleyes:
We should be worrying about ourselves before we worry about others. That is it, isn't it? We fix out own country, and then we
can deal with the others.
festergrump July 23rd, 2008, 07:46 AM

any kind of nigger.
Really? Big Brother is White? Why is that, for one? Secondly, crime has been around since mankind has walked the earth, but
did it happen before niggers? Were niggers around when man began to walk the earth? I thought they only evolved well after
the Dark Ages when White men became scientists and all others were still picking ticks off of one another... (remove tongue
from cheek).
I dare anyone to look at the statistics of black on white crime and the same for white on black crime. It's a chilling truth, let
me tell you.
I'm white and you disagree with me (must be my Jew-corrupted brain)
Yes. It's your propaganda filled mind, no less. You seem like an intelligent individual but you are not understanding how you
have been programmed from birth. If you are indeed a White man, you should embrace the White race and not dilute it.
Roguesci itself is segregated, not racially and it seems to be working. Any idiot, regardless of colour is kicked out and anyone
who seems to be functioning is kept, regardless of colour.
If you will notice, the "posting" membership here is predominantly White. There are other races which chime in from time to
time and even a few who post regularly who are NOT White, but the rest are just leeches who simply suck the teat which
Roguesci offers them... Those foolish enough of all races who cannot put forth a sentence in their own language get the axe
when they make a pitiful attempt. This is the way...
The other problem with racial segregation is the tendancy for inbreeding, nowadays the Arian race itself is a sign of more
recessive genes, pointing towards a common ancestor.
REALLY? LOL! Surely you think there are enough White men and women on the face of the earth to breed without running into
a cousin or other family member! How about the jews? They are about 2% of the population of just America... Can they do it?
I say yes! They most certainly can. Aryans SURELY can, without even a doubt! Stop smoking whatever you are smoking, SN...
It's the mongrels and zebras who have genetic superiority when it comes to survival, just don't bring them up in a crack filled
poverty trap like the Bronx and they'll grow up to 'Do things for themselves'
Oh, give me a break. Zebras are nothing more than a nigger with a tad bit of White blood in them who will do nothing more
than (hopefully, for their own sake and livelyhood) pass themselves off as White so they can be a part of humanity when the
niggers fail to do ANYTHING...
If you want to curb global population, the first step is organization (ie: segregation). Nature will cull the weak from the earth...
[EDIT: Damn, Alex... you beat me to the punch.]
phrankinsteyn July 23rd, 2008, 05:04 PM

I believe that we all are here, on this forum, for scientific proposes. How is judging scientific? Most, if not all, of us would not
be here if IQ tests were given to our parents or grandparents etc. The upper class has always judged the lower class and
extermination has been done and is continuing to be done. Has this solved our problem?
The problem, as I see it, is not color of skin but of belief. The belief in the bill of rights, in being free: the true American
dream. Not the alleged American dream of capitalism/materialism/greed (show me where in the bill of rights or the
constitution that America is a country based on capitalism). When you allow an extremism of any sort, racial/religion/
materialism, you become divided. And this type of talk could divide us here also and possibly cause this site to be shut down
or Mega sued if one of our more intolerant members does something perceived as harmful and it is traced back to here. If
Mega was greedy/materialistic and did not believe in the "freedom of Knowledge" you would have to pay to view/join this site.
The one's in my life that has caused me the most problems (since childhood) have been my own kind. From trying to hit on
"my girl" when I was not around, to stealing, lying robbing and physically attacking me. I did not grow up in a "nice"
environment either. Street gangs were in every neighborhood I grew up in. And I myself may have been a member. I have
attacked and been attacked by other races. I used to blame and dislike others due to their skin color and most felt the same
way about me.
But I realized one day we were all in the same economic situation, as we were living in the same neighborhoods and fighting
for the same jobs. Who brought them here (the other races)? They wanted cheaper labor. They knew what the outcome would
be. They knew from a historical stand point what would happen. MLK did not give himself a holiday; blacks did not pass
affirmative action, the Mexicans or Puerto Ricans did not program the phones (private businesses or government) to say:
press two for Spanish or any other laws that affected me. It was the mostly white male's (politicians at that time) from an
economic class (that I was not in ) that did this and passed these laws.
I also find it ironic that we as an American nation puts money above all things (and talks of racism), yet claim to be a nation
that follows and believes in a Jewish man that was financially destitute as our/their savior. What an oxymoron.
My enemy is the man who is standing in front of me (regardless of the color of his skin, beliefs or even a member of my
immediate family) that is trying to take away anything from me that is detrimental to my (freedom of) existence.
We all deserve to die and we will.
And to quote Theodore Roosevelt: "The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, or preventing all possibility
of its continuing as a nation at all, would
be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities."
I believe that we all are here, on this forum, for scientific proposes. How is judging scientific?
It could be argued that science is a practice of judging. We judge compounds by their appearance, weight, solubility,
characteristics, etc. Thus, is it really any different to judge someone or a group of people by their skin colour, intelligence,
demeanour and appearance?
Judging is a form of self preservation, and if we have only ever met 100 Aborigines and all 100 have been stupid, mindless
idiots, then it is fair to form the assumption that the next one we meet is going to be an idiot. Hence, I judge others by their
skin colour. This isn't to say that I don't think that there are intelligent Aborigines, just that I think the vast majority that I
meet will be unintelligent.
I don't care about classes. I acknowledge my opinions of others are formed in the first 30 seconds or so that I meet them,
have come to terms with judging others and the fact it is necessary to use stereotypes in life. At least I am not a hypocrite
unlike those that insist on "extreme tolerance" which is another form of racism.
Who brought them here (the other races)? They wanted cheaper labor. They knew what the outcome would be. They knew
from a historical stand point what would happen. MLK did not give himself a holiday; blacks did not pass affirmative action, the
Mexicans or Puerto Ricans did not program the phones (private businesses or government) to say: press two for Spanish or
any other laws that affected me. It was the mostly white male's (politicians at that time) from an economic class (that I was
not in ) that did this and passed these laws.
These same people tend to choke on their own morality and are the same people that take our freedoms under the guise of
protecting "the children" or "the minorities". It is their brainwashing that results in this, not the fact they are white.
phrankinsteyn July 24th, 2008, 03:14 AM

It could be argued that science is a practice of judging.Anything can be argued and that is what we are doing.:) People are
made up of chemicals. Chemicals are predicable, people are unpredictable. Skin is a camouflage. Chemicals (that I am aware
of) do not camouflage themselves as another chemical (pretend to be something they are not). To let your guard down (by
judging/stereotyping) you are only setting yourself up. This is not to say that if you have had problems with a group of people
(or chemicals) that you should not be on your guard and you should always be on your guard.:D
I don't care about classes. I do. Those that believe they are in a superior class will judge others (or make laws and use force
against) that they feel are not equal to them.
It is their brainwashing that results in this, not the fact they are white.But if they were white (most were) and if you are making
an observation that would be part of the description. I do not know if they were/are brainwashed. I do not know what a man
(especially a politician) thinks, or why, only what he says and does.
One other observation I did not mention in my last post that I believe causes problems/division. People need to assimilate
when they become Americans, some do not or are unwilling. Keep your old country's flag, your native language and how great
the old country was to yourself. Would you put your ex spouse's picture in your new home, brag about them or compare them
to your current spouse? America is now your/their new home and spouse.
Maybe I am getting old, senile and paranoid. Or maybe they are just young, dumb and full of ...........(rhymes with dumb).
Don't you just love the quote button?:rolleyes:
TheSavageHyena July 24th, 2008, 05:05 AM

http://uk.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUKN2337323420080724?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0&sp=true
That above link is surely on topic and it I believe it's safe to say that a majority of our foods contain it and it's by-products. It
is disguised as a 'natural', healthy, and cheap source of food and material. It performs poorly in nutrition compared to other
beans yet I believe the ease of growth/versatility to growing environments makes it a very easily marketed product. Assuming
this study holds some ground, I am curious to see the recent patterns in consumption of soy based products.
I hope to keep this post short and to the point. That link I posted is one of many scientific studies conducted on the matter. It
was referred to me by a friend of mine who suffers from male pattern baldness and feels that soybeans contribute to the
'disease'. Phytoestrogens have been and remain a controversial substance in that field. That aside it wouldn't surprise me if it
turned out to be true. It is in almost every god damn ingredient list for food, mainly processed.
But if they were white (most were) ....
I hardly believe that most were white, because if one looks at the politicians here (Canada) and America, the zionist influence
is staring right back at you with a smile. Many bullshit laws which limit freedom (anti-gun, pro immigration, etc) are mainly
backed by a wealthy pro-israel lobby group. Sources are available upon request, however they have been stated over many
times in different threads. If it were another race/group of people responsible for these atrocities to freedom, believe me that
they would be identified and hopefully neutralized. It just so happens to be jews this time, most of the time, if not all the time
:rolleyes:.
phrankinsteyn July 24th, 2008, 05:22 PM

I hardly believe that most were white,.
These people were white and male (USA).
Signed by President Johnson: Civil Rights Act of 1964, Voting Rights Act of 1965, The Bilingual Education Act of 1968 and Gun
Control Act 1968.
Signed by President Reagan: Martin Luther King Jr's Day 1983. Sponsored by Ted Kennedy (what would we do without
him):rolleyes:.
I do not know/remember (and I don't feel like hunting each member(s) voting record down; that was a long time ago) the
exact number of the U.S. Senate that were white and male, but the buck stops for me with the person who signs it into law.
Interesting link that you posted, thanks.:)

It doesn't matter who signs it, it matters who is influencing the proposal. It is always the Jew.

Do you believe a person should be held responsible for their actions or the person(s) that influenced them? Or both?

All parties involved should be held responsible. But, these tyrannical bills wouldn't get passed or even thought about if it
weren't for Jewish interests. After all, we're still apologizing for the bullshit holohoax that we took no part in. Slander a Jew,
and you're gonna get sued by the ADL.
Johnson was heavily influenced by Jews.
festergrump July 25th, 2008, 12:31 AM

Johnson was heavily influenced by Jews.
It's a challenge to name one leader since WWII and the hollow-hoax that wasn't in bed with the jews...
http://linuxhelp.150m.com/jews/JewLeaders.htm
Rbick July 25th, 2008, 11:04 AM

So whats your point about Jews? We are also heavily influenced by Arabs and Mexicans too. Its hard to name anyone in power
since WWII who hasn't sucked a few arab dicks. Its also hard to find countries that haven't sucked US dick either.
That site with the pictures is ridiculous. Finding these pictures took me ten minutes on google.
Proof that UN and the US are in bed with Arabs!

George Bush: 1 (http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/ap_risha_bush_070913_ms.jpg) and 2 (http://www.bbspot.com/
Images/News_Features/2003/09/bush_saudi.jpg)
Bush Senior (http://www.saudiembassy.net/Publications/MagWinter02/Images/9-Bush.gif)
Tony Blair (http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00GEb6g1Bt7x2/610x.jpg)
John Howard (http://www.edweek.org/media/2008/03/21/29dubai515.jpg)
Cheney (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/mikesamerica/74131365.jpg)
Jacques Chirac (http://www.uaeinteract.com/news/article_pics/10251.jpg)
Josh Bolton and Bush (http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04SJ6CNaoKecO/610x.jpg)
The Pope (http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/923/421915699724b14fxu2.jpg)
And even Skeletor! (http://www.jeremyreimer.com/download/rumsfeld.jpg)
I can do the same thing with Mexicans, Indians, whatever. I just don't want to post that many links.
I hear they have been meeting with plans to instill Sharia throughout the entire world in exchange for free oil coupons! Its a
conspiracy I tell you! So is the moon landing in '69, the holocaust, Area 51, The Bible, String Theory, the Mars probe, Nuclear
Energy, and basically anything great accomplished by humans in the last 500 years.
Ok I'll turn off my sarcasm button. So basically what you're saying is that we shouldn't have these tyrannical laws (I agree) but
anyone who isn't a white American should? Slandering Jews, hell I've done it a million times. A buddy of mine is Jewish and I
rip on him in public all of the time. The show South Park has insulted Jews continuously for over a decade now (along with
every other religion). I haven't been sued yet, nor heard of the ADL. People will get in as just as much trouble for slandering
Jews as they would Mexicans, Blacks, or whatever.
Of course selfish things are done in our government and globally by Whites, Jews, Arabs, Eskimos (those bastards are killing
whales!) ect. If anything, whites are the biggest ass holes of them all. I'm one of them, so I know. The idea of pointing the
finger at Jews is narrow minded and ignorant. I have family members who are Jewish, and they aren't part of some great
conspiracy. They are some of the nicest people you could meet. So stop with this stereotyping of all Jews, its fucking retarded.
People are just pissed off and are looking for people to blame.
Vitalis July 25th, 2008, 05:22 PM

In my opinion you are all banging your heads against a wall trying to convince others that a certain group is responsible for all
the problems in the world. Those who believe the Jews are responsible will continue to believe what they believe. Same goes
for those blaming Whites or Africans etc.
Back to the topic of global population control; the nations that can do for themselves need to start focusing on themselves
and stop attempting to help the leeches. Let the Africans starve and succumb to their diseases. Stop all foreign aide, let
everyone fend for themselves. First world nations can continue to trade with each other and continue to pull resources from
third world nations. This could help to eliminate quite a few people.

Back to the topic of global population control; the nations that can do for themselves need to start focusing on themselves
and stop attempting to help the leeches. Let the Africans starve and succumb to their diseases. Stop all foreign aide, let
everyone fend for themselves. First world nations can continue to trade with each other and continue to pull resources from
third world nations. This could help to eliminate quite a few people.
Europe, the U.S. and the white Commonwealth should form an exclusive trading block and let the rest of the world go hang.
I was being somewhat hyperbolic.
Well, the truth doesn't need justification. "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the
dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams
Jews get a free pass far too often, same with the niggers. Mexicans much-less so, but they're soon to be the new "victims of
oppression."
I've always thought of foreign aid as a bad thing. It's humorous that more emphasis is put on foreign aid than domestic.
I agree though, let the 3rd worlders "sink or swim" so to speak.

but they're soon to be the new "victims of oppression."
This is all too true. I can't stand it when people play the race card! If its a white guy getting the shit beat out of him by some
minorities, its because they are victimes of societyand didn't know any better. Flip things around, with a white guy beating the
shit out of some one of a different race, everyone stands up and says HATE CRIME. The crazy thing is that we do it to
ourselves! Its this leftist state of mind that if you're not white, you're being repressed, but if you are white you are being
intolerant. Or that we should take God out of school but worship the occult and allow Muslims to practice instead. What is going
on here? If you're going to not let people practice Christianity in school, then no one else should be able to practice anything
else. I truly dislike the hippie liberal mind set that our country seems to be sliding into. Its turning the country into a bunch of
feministic blubbering vaginas.
My previous post was just to point out the fact that Jews are not the only ones to blame for this mess that has been made of
the human race, we all are. I would like to see all foreign aid stopped and for the US, Britian, and other UN forces pulled out of
foreign lands just so we could watch the world go to shit. I can definitely see this stopping population growth quite quickly.
mike-hunt July 25th, 2008, 11:42 PM

Yes well spotted Gerbil . I was exactly the type of drug addicted welfare leach I would like to see castrated today. There was
also a time when I believed racists were the worst kind of evil. Now I am just a grumpy old man who hates the majority of the
human race so I guess I am a raciest of the worst kind. The only easy answer is to bury our heads in the sand and leave it to
the next generation to fix. Most likely what I my self will be doing. So I am a bad person I can live with that.

In my opinion you are all banging your heads against a wall trying to convince others that a certain group is responsible for all
the problems in the world.
Back to the topic of global population control;
I agree on both your statements.
I believe that we should apply to human greed and self interest (better odds of that working) for population control. I would
like to see education (as to why birth control is advantageous to them). Laws that give jail time for both parents for having
children out of wedlock (not grand fathered in) or divorce (only allows them to remarry and have more children). Incentives not
to have children, financial and educational. Award/pay them not to have children (the opposite of Alexires's thread in The
Water Cooler "Absolutely Disgusting"); this saves us money in the long run (additional welfare and possible future prisoners,
very costly and dangerous). Free education, this makes the country stronger (intellectually and again less petty criminals).
Also the Roman Catholic Church to allow birth control (other then the rhythm method but that would mean less Catholics for
them) along with any other church/religion that advocates large families. This would also slow down the spread of Aids and
other Stds (sexual transmitted diseases).
But the government(s) wants/needs people for money (taxes), military (cannon fodder and international police), workers and
low wage earners (who would be the ancillary help if everyone was a manager?). History states that the Nazis had "The
Lebensborn homes" and Hitler gave medals to mothers for having children. And the history books also state that the USSR
gave medals to mothers. I am sure there are many more examples.
Or we can kill them all and let God sort them out, There is no end to doing right, (Sarcasm and "The Outlaw Josie Wales").
I can just see the debate/arguments coming :)
Secong Nature July 26th, 2008, 01:15 AM

The only thing touching on the last post is that all sounds like a giant swing in the opposite direction, probably not for the
overall better.
It really depends on what you want the future to hold as to what your views on foreign aid are.
If you want the world to be 'reborn in fire', then drop aid, kill the controlling leaders and watch anarchy and natural selection
take controll.
If you want the world to continue in a different direction then cut what losses you can but don't close yourself in.
Believe it or not different cultures can learn from each other, no single race has all the answers.
Think of all the Inca races that where destroyed by the Spanish, heaps of history and knowlege lost in the plundering of cities
by the dominant race which could've benifited them too.

The only thing touching on the last post is that all sounds like a giant swing in the opposite direction, probably not for the
overall better.
You talking to me? (Taxi Driver) :)
If you could, would you be more specific on "swing in the opposite direction, probably not for the overall better". And your
proposal, could you give more detail? It sounds interesting but generic to me.
totenkov July 26th, 2008, 11:57 AM

After reading through the thread, I find it awfully difficult to say who's choice it is to rid the world of the undesirables. Canada
has immigrants pouring over the boarders wherever possible, every Chink, Rag head and Jamaican faggot that can sing the
national anthem in broken English is welcomed with open arms.
I don't like this.
I've always taken the sit back and watch it happen approach when those around me are loosing their heads, and I will likely do
the same thing, regardless of what happens. Not to say I have no motives or lack or drive, just more interest in the way things
play out. I will continue to do what I want, when I want, regardless of what happens.
I couldn't care less if there was a starving child in Africa, ridden with kwashiorkor, rickets and scurvy. Am I about to end my way
of life for that child, thousands of miles away, in my mind, on a different planet? Absolutely not. Human kind is simply not like
that.
When it comes to whose choice it is to govern population and rid the world of the useless people (reminds me of the forum?
:)) , I think its up for the taking. With regard to a mass genocide by a North American country with its own desires and ideas of
a perfect world, its not an option. Do you think fighting in the Middle East, genocide in Africa and all the other human like traits
displayed on this planet is anything new? This has been happening for thousands of years. No, the poor are better off poor.
What would a nation of beggars do if gold bars were dumped into their laps?
My opinion of todays fucked world? Let it be.

Chemicals are predicable, people are unpredictable. Skin is a camouflage. Chemicals (that I am aware of) do not camouflage
themselves as another chemical (pretend to be something they are not). To let your guard down (by judging/stereotyping) you
are only setting yourself up.
Chemicals are only predictable and identifiable when you look at them close enough (just like people). If you run an NMR on a
chemical, you have a fair idea of what it is. If you run a full psych profile on someone, you have a fair idea of what they are
like. When you meet someone in the street for the first time, it is like trying to tell what a chemical is by observation (its a
white powder.....with the millions of other white powders out there).
I don't see how judging and stereotyping let your guard down. By considering each and every person as someone new and
unique might be fair, but the world isn't fair. I'd rather judge someone first off based on what I see and reserve the right to
change my mind later, than to give them the benefit of the doubt and get fucked. RTPB - Trust, but verify.
I do. Those that believe they are in a superior class will judge others (or make laws and use force against) that they feel are
not equal to them.
I was more trying to say that I try not to judge people by classes such as wealth and material possessions. I absolutely agree
that those who believe themselves superior can justify almost anything just because they are superior (just like we are doing
here).
Morality is a human construct.
But if they were white (most were) and if you are making an observation that would be part of the description. I do not know if
they were/are brainwashed. I do not know what a man (especially a politician) thinks, or why, only what he says and does.
And it is for that very reason we judge people upon their appearance. Fair enough if you judge white people like that, but I
think it is more brainwashing as opposed to some kind of genetic trait.
People need to assimilate when they become Americans, some do not or are unwilling. Keep your old country's flag, your
native language and how great the old country was to yourself. Would you put your ex spouse's picture in your new home,
brag about them or compare them to your current spouse? America is now your/their new home and spouse.
Exactly right. I agree 100%. If someone comes to my country but acts like it is still the middle east, he is not one of my
countrymen. I don't give a fuck if he has a piece of paper from a government I don't support, when he starts acting like this is
his home, I'll start treating him like he belongs here.
Totenkov - I agree with your philosophy of sit back and see what happens. I would like to change the world, but I am a realist.
I know that there is little hope of changing it to how I want. Much better to look after yourself, and to hell if the world burns
down around you.

As was stated before, we are digressing and not staying on topic. This may need its own thread. :)
Chemicals are only predictable and identifiable when you look at them close enough (just like people). If you run an NMR on a
chemical, you have a fair idea of what it is. If you run a full psych profile on someone, you have a fair idea of what they are
like. there).
When you look at them close enough and then run a series of tests/profiles on a chemical or someone, then you are not
making a prejudice observation. You are making a scientific/legal (and that does not necessarily make it true, but that's a
whole different debate) analysis based on facts.
When you meet someone in the street for the first time, it is like trying to tell what a chemical is by observation (its a white
powder.....with the millions of other white powders out
That is being cautious and scientific not being prejudice.
I don't see how judging and stereotyping let your guard down. By considering each and every person as someone new and
unique might be fair, but the world isn't fair. I'd rather judge someone first off based on what I see and reserve the right to
change my mind later, than to give them the benefit of the doubt and get fucked. RTPB - Trust, but verify.
I too, like you, have seen that the people/world/nature is not fair or trustworthy based on appearance. I will try to explain what
I meant be letting your guard down. I mean that if you assume someone is a friend or foe based only by appearance (skin
color/religion/uniform/dress) you can get hurt (physically, financially, emotionally, etc. If you allow someone to get close to
you (fighting/self defense or into your life, Guard Down) based on their skin color/religion/uniform/dress they are now in close
enough to hurt (attack, rob, testify against or kill) you. Most people are hurt/killed by their own kind or a "friend". If I
remember reading correctly in one of the forum posts. A member here was arrested and placed in jail with the help of one of
his "friend's" (I am assuming this friend was a member of this forum and the same race.) whose house he was visiting. That
is what I meant by letting your guard down. My RTPB - Verify but never completely trust.
Most people are taken advantage of by their own race, people of their religious faith and the person in a business suit. If you
added up all the problems you had with people odds are it was with your own kind that would top the list.
And it is for that very reason we judge people upon their appearance. Fair enough if you judge white people like that, but I
think it is more brainwashing as opposed to some kind of genetic trait.
I do not judge people on there appearance (example: white male preacher in a 3 piece suit) and I was not judging white
people. I was describing the persons who signed these laws into affect (what can be proven). I should have added in the
description, by their own account, that they were Christians. How can we prove brainwashing without facts? As I stated before
and if I understand you correctly, we must have proof and facts in order for it to be considered scientific. Were they placed in a
"program" that made them renounce- rethink their previous beliefs, POW camp (we better watch McCain:rolleyes:) or some
type of re-education camp? Where is the evidence for this?
It may be the genetic trait of self preservation (what benefits them, money, power or career) and not what's best for their
country, mankind or race(?).
And to end with a few quotes. :)
"Uniform" one calls what they wear: would that what it conceals were not uniform! (Nietzsche- Thus Spoke Zarathustra)
That's all I have to say about that. (Forrest Gump)
TheSavageHyena July 28th, 2008, 01:53 PM

Even though you typed a damn near page of words, they contributed nothing to the subject matter of the original thread. Good
job :rolleyes:
http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm
Here is an interesting link, on topic of course, although some claims may seem a bit extreme.
Also this link which only stimulates more thought about the possibilities that lie ahead.
http://www.nanotech-now.com/columns/?article=161
With the second link the site claims nanotechnology, when combined with stem cell technology, can basically alter the human
gene map to varying degrees. This technology is in it's primary stages, and the mission statement is already to 'help humans'
however I am skeptical. Assuming one believes the claims, then yes it will probably be used for some good. On the same
token it wouldn't seem far fetched that the same technology could be used to control hormone levels and impede function.
Another thing to note is that the site claims of using wires and chips, which I believe, only leads to more tracking and control
:eek:. Fine, I will save that one for another thread so I don't get OT (easy to do here :p). And that is scary when one really
wants to think about it. Not a virus or bacteria, just really small wires and chips ready to manipulate the body at the users
request. And due to its small size, it can go undetected and imposed on the user without consent. Crazy what some folks are
up to in the lab. Let the brainstorming begin :D
Jacks Complete July 30th, 2008, 04:06 AM

Yes Africa may be consuming only a small percentage of our oil resources . A trip to any large Asian city and you will see, hear
and smell how this resource is needlessly wasted .So you want to be the one to sell them (for under 50p an engine) newer
more efficient ones? That cost us $$$? The deforestation of the planet is also a problem with South America the biggest
offender Africa comes in the number two position.
"Africa suffered the second largest net loss in forests with 4.0 million hectares cleared annually. Nigeria and Sudan were the
two largest losers of natural forest during the 2000-2005 period. "
World deforestation rates and forest cover statistics, 2000-2005
Http://news.mongabay.com/2005/1115-forests.html Here we see the lack of history education. Before us dead white guys
cleared all the forests in the UK, there was forest everywhere, even in the Scottish highlands. Now, there are none. If you look
at the north American areas, most of that was covered in trees too - another poster mentioned it above. Now, it is a million
acres of soya and corn.
How can we say "Stop cutting your trees down" when we *still* cut all our own? We just don't appear on the records because we
deforested before people kept track.
Fester raises a good point about the way that Israel oppresses and pushes out outsiders. If you aren't Jewish, life there is
hell. Yet they love blending everyone else's genes! However, I see nothing wrong with mixed genes. Better that, than the
racial ghettos we are seeing. And as for white people being supreme, you aren't living in a country where now, all the cheap
labour flooding the place and putting the locals out of work are from a second world white country! We have millions of Poles
and Romanian workers here now, pumping the money out of the UK back to the former eastern bloc. It's so bad even the
blacks are moaning about it!
While Roguesci might be segregated based upon intelligence, what happens if that intelligence was based upon skin colour?
We don't need to know that a troll is black, his inferiority makes itself known by his speech and degree of apparent
intelligence.Now now, that is itself rather close to being oxymoronic. If they are stupid, we see that. The skin colour has
nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure that given the fact that it's the richer white kids who can afford internet, we ban far more
white morons than black, or any other colour.
Yes, some genetic areas have a lower intelligence. However, just because the lowest has black skin, it doesn't mean all blacks
are stupid, because there are blacks from thousands of miles away from Africa, like Jamaica, who are far brighter (in my
experience) and on a par with the best white guys. And the number of utersmech I meet every day who are white and proud?
It turns my stomach.
Who brought them here (the other races)? They wanted cheaper labor. They knew what the outcome would be. They knew
from a historical stand point what would happen. MLK did not give himself a holiday; blacks did not pass affirmative action, the
Mexicans or Puerto Ricans did not program the phones (private businesses or government) to say: press two for Spanish or
any other laws that affected me. It was the mostly white male's (politicians at that time) from an economic class (that I was
not in ) that did this and passed these laws.Indeed, this is true. The Whites pressing for the Blacks to be allowed to use their
terrible history as an excuse for failure, over and over again, and the weak people who are still saying sorry for taking land
300+ years ago, they are where the blame is at. If you write anyone a free pass, it changes them a bit, and only the strongest
won't be swayed by it. If you then pass that on to their kids kids, what can you expect to happen? (Or was this planned?)
It doesn't matter who signs it, it matters who is influencing the proposal. It is always the Jew.And what skin colour is a Jew?
Jews get a free pass far too often, same with the niggers. Mexicans much-less so, but they're soon to be the new "victims of
oppression."This I agree with. The free passes are the problem, not the people getting them. But after a long while, those
getting the free passes come to be the problem.
I know one chav girl who refers to her welfare cheque day as "payday" or "when I get paid". And she isn't alone. But I feel that
anyone who does that should have it immediately halved.
As for what should be done? Simple, on both a local (national) level and an international level. Stop the hand-outs. They
promote all that is wrong with the current system, and they make bigger problems for next time. If you support a million
people this time there is a drought, then next time there will be 1.5 million to support, and so on, until we simply cannot
support both them and us. And then what happens? They out-number us, so in the great "World democracy" they just hold a
vote to see who gets the food.
In the coming world based on the worship of the false god Democracy, there are 50% of the world who are a Chinese block
vote. The minorities are screwed. Doesn't look too good for the white's either!
Kaydon July 31st, 2008, 02:47 AM

They may be of White skin, but tainted blood runs through their veins. Major genetic differences. I'm not prepared to go into
detail about it at the moment. Perhaps someone else will chime in on that bit.
It's really not the fact that these programs exist (welfare and so on) but that it's soo easy to get aboard one and have a free
check.
festergrump July 31st, 2008, 04:02 AM

They look White but they're far from it, or even acting like it. The hebrews which turned Jesus Christ in to the Romans to
crucify are not even entirely the same race of jews. They are trying very hard now to keep their race as pure as they can, and
because of this intermixing of races with their own, they try especially hard to dilute every other race on the face of the Earth.
2000 years of various countries kicking the jews out cannot be called anti-semitism. It is for a reason.
But integration and interbreeding work well for other agendas of theirs, too, such as destroying economies and pitting other
races against each other (black vs, white: hispanics vs. black; white vs. hispanic, etc.) to alleviate the threat to their own race,
which prefers to hide and pull political strings rather than fight like they have us all doing. If every Black, White, Hispanic, and
Asian man stopped fighting and said "fuck this, it the jews that started this shit" and turned our attentions toward the jewish
control of our governments, we'd probably all get along much better than we do right now.
If America, Canada, the UK, Australia, and other governments were without Israeli Influence... I feel it's safe to say that we
would not all be in the financial and political turmoil that we are in now. Because of that, we would still have the freedoms that
our forefathers died to preserve for us all, too!
Thus, I believe we would all realize the need to segregate and not integrate our populations, leading to a more non-violent
society and THEN we can start looking at the population of the world and discussing what should be done about it... to each
race individually.
Throw them all together and you have war in the streets. We KNOW this by now. Segregation is the first step to global
depopulation.
phrankinsteyn July 31st, 2008, 03:23 PM

Since by skin color alone (Another reason way you cannot assume/believe someone is your friend/ally or enemy because they
are white. :)) we are unable to describe all Jews, would being a Jew be a "mentality"? Or is being a Jew (Judaism) a religious
belief based on the Tanakh, (which contains the Torah plus a few other books) the Talmud and/or the teachings from the
Christian Bibles of the Old Testament?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > What book(s) are you reading?
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View Full Version : What book(s) are you reading?
London_Dungeon July 24th, 2008, 08:02 PM

I'm a bibliophile. Maybe a bibliomaniac. Someone once told me you know you're a bibliomaniac when you buy another copy of a book you already have because it's easier
than finding the original. I'm guilty of that. A few times, actually.
So I thought it would be interesting to see what you fellow RougSci users were sticking your noses in between - literary wise!
I'm currently juggling Shit Magnet by Jim Goad, A General Intriduction to Psychoanalysis by Freud, The Natural History of Stupidity, and The Revenge Encyclopedia by Paladin
Press (it sucks).
Now it's your turn. You DO read, don't you???
festergrump July 24th, 2008, 08:48 PM

I'm in the process of rereading the entire John Carter of Mars (Barsoom) series by Edgar Rice Burroughs. I'm currently in the middle of The Chessmen of Mars.
So very glad I am that they decided not to make a movie based on the books, they likely would ruin everything. (probably cast Sandra Bernhardt as Dejah Thoris, sitting on a
dead thoat smoking a Pall Mall non-filtered cigarette and saying something along the lines of, "C'mon, John. You gonna rescue me, or what?"... LOL!
I hate when they fuck up a good story by making a horrible movie out of it.
joffe July 25th, 2008, 06:40 AM

A French military manual. "TTA 150 , Titre IV, Le Combat". I'm planning on reading all the interesting manuals (this is a series of 20 manuals) in the series, as I'm in a nostalgic
mood right now - dreaming about my years in uniform.
TreverSlyFox July 25th, 2008, 07:38 AM

Hmmm, just finished:
Clash of Titans by Walter J. Boyne (Naval Operations of WWII)
The Death Gate Cycle by Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman
Just Started:
Bodyguard of Lies by Anthony Cave Brown (The War of Deception that Hid D-Day from Hitler)
Re-Reading:
FM 7-8 Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad
London_Dungeon July 25th, 2008, 10:00 AM

joffe and TreverSlyFox,
You two might want to check these sites out:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6453/doctrinea.html
http://www.stevespages.com/page7c.htm
Lots of good stuff for free.

A French military manual. "TTA 150 , Titre IV, Le Combat". I'm planning on reading all the interesting manuals (this is a series of 20 manuals) in the series, as I'm in a nostalgic
mood right now - dreaming about my years in uniform.
If the manuals are useful, with information not avaiable elseware, would you consider translating them for upload?
TreverSlyFox July 26th, 2008, 08:52 AM

London_Dungeon,
Great Links, Thank You.
joffe July 26th, 2008, 10:11 AM

London_Dungeon. thanks for the links.
Hirudinea. You'l find better US manuals out there. If you want to read it, you'll find the 2001 edition here. Personally, I prefer the 1980 edition. But that's purely for nostalgic
reasons.
http://bstatfacile.free.fr/IMG/pdf/TTA150_Titre04.pdf
Replace titre04.pdf with 05 and so on to get the rest of the manuals. You wont find titre X,though (mines et explosifs), this one is classified.
slarter July 26th, 2008, 12:56 PM

I just received my copy of "Fundamentals of Shaped Charges" by Walters and Zukas. Took me weeks to track down a copy for less than $300.00.
Also reading "Hell's Gate" by David Weber.

I'm reading Asimov on Chemistry (interesting but not instructive) and I just finished Hells Angels by Hunter S Thompson.
Barnacles July 26th, 2008, 09:07 PM

I am reading " The Fabric Of The Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality" By Brian R. Greene.
It is a great book about quantum physics, string theory stuff like that. Very well written ande enjoyable read, you get lots of "Eureeka" moments while reading it. It is the
sequel to " The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory".
I've read other books like this by Hawkings and always have been into this kind of stuff. I rememeber being allowed to teach a grade 13 physics class in grade 9 after I started
getting into this stuff and my teacher saw what kind of heavy stuff I was into as a hobby...
In the process of printing out some of Vogels Organic Chemistry books to hardcopy, I am going to "read" those soon. I love reference manuals mmmmmmmmmmmm. I could
make a bed out of them I love them so much. MUAHAHAHHAHA must have all reference. LOL a little joke between a buddy and I.
totenkov July 26th, 2008, 09:38 PM

Currently reading the Fountain Head, by Ayn Rand and Rashomon.

I just received my copy of "Fundamentals of Shaped Charges" by Walters and Zukas. Took me weeks to track down a copy for less than $300.00.
Also reading "Hell's Gate" by David Weber.
To users like slarter, be sure to check the FTP as you might find a copy of something you are looking for, and you don't need to wait weeks for it to come in.

I'm currently reading a collection of Cicero's defense speeches, Plato's "Republic" and "A Short History of Philosophy" written by Robert C. Solomon and Kathleen M. Higgins, all
of them published by Oxford University Press. My current bedtime book is "With Fire and Sword" by a brilliant Polish author Henryk Sienkiewicz.

Hirudinea. You'l find better US manuals out there. If you want to read it, you'll find the 2001 edition here. Personally, I prefer the 1980 edition. But that's purely for nostalgic
reasons.
http://bstatfacile.free.fr/IMG/pdf/TTA150_Titre04.pdf
Replace titre04.pdf with 05 and so on to get the rest of the manuals. You wont find titre X,though (mines et explosifs), this one is classified.
Thanks for the link, I like the little cartoon soldiers, but I can't read french, so I wanted to know if there was info in the manuals worthy of translation into English and you said
no.

I'm in the process of rereading the entire John Carter of Mars (Barsoom) series by Edgar Rice Burroughs. I'm currently in the middle of The Chessmen of Mars.
Nobody said they had to be textbooks or good chem-related books. I should feel stupid, maybe, but I don't... I find certain fantasy books to be therapeutic. Especially those
wriiten way back when. It's "novel" (pardon the pun) to see the visions those authors had so many years ago...
London_Dungeon, is it okay to also ask what what fiction books folks are reading in this thread, or are you opposed to that? :o I'm all for learning about some good sci-fi I've
never read, and the populous here would have a really good opinion, I think, on what's good, stimulating reading. :)

Fester, if you like sci fi you must have heard of Orson Scott Card. If you have never checked it out Flux is a good, quick read. It is a collection of his short stories that got him
his start in sci fi. Very good fantasy and very insightful stuff.

Thanks for the heads up, TLTO... Short stories are great for things which require you to wait patiently, like doctor's offices (another pun I cannot escape from) :o...
I'll look into FLUX. Thanks! :)
Thorald July 28th, 2008, 07:22 AM

I just finished Re-Reading 'Executive Orders' by Tom Clancy.
It's a great book, although a long one I would recommend it!
Chapel July 29th, 2008, 08:13 PM

I am currently reading "On Thermonuclear War" by Herman Kahn.
The inventor of my all time favorite word "Megadeath".
AUK2k7 August 1st, 2008, 10:15 PM

I just finished reading "Brave new world" by Adous Huxley and "1984" by Orwell for the 2nd time. I get the feeling that if you mix the two societies in the novels you
get todays world, Big Brother watching you and yet at the same time a massively materialistic world full of dubious sexual exploits (I prefer the latter society). I am
about to read Catch-22 by Joseph Heller and begin reading vol. 4 of the encyclopedia of explosives.
-=HeX=- August 2nd, 2008, 08:33 AM

I am about to read 1984 and am starting chemistry of propellants and explosives again tonight. That being if I can access a computer to read it. I just read the lord of the rings
series again and have bought the lord of the flies.
By the way, I am going on a semi hiatous for around 2 more weeks again, but I will drop in every so often. Keep up the great work.
Hinckleyforpresident August 2nd, 2008, 01:05 PM

Reading:
The Doors of Perception - Aldous Huxley
The Mind of the Market: Compassionate Apes, Competitive Humans, and Other Tales from Evolutionary Economics - Michael Shermer
About to start reading:

Brave New World - Aldous Huxley
I am a Strange Loop - Douglas Hofstadter
London_Dungeon August 3rd, 2008, 08:58 PM

London_Dungeon, is it okay to also ask what what fiction books folks are reading in this thread, or are you opposed to that?
Anything goes!
P.S. Sorry for the delayed response.
Unsunghero August 4th, 2008, 01:56 PM

I am currently reading Pseudodoxia Epidemica, after finishing religio medici by Sir Thomas Browne. After that I'm going to calm down with some Dean Koontz (the good guy).
Then on to the critique of practical reason by Immanuel Kant (I read a critique of pure reason VERY good), then onto the 3rd critique "A critique of judgement"
I would suggest these books for people that like to think, well, deep. Kant's stuff is highly complicated though, I find myself reading some pages 3 or 4 times over and/or
looking back to the referencing of the rest of the book.
Cuprum August 5th, 2008, 09:51 PM

I'm reading Unintended Consequences by John Ross. I'm sure most of you are familiar with it.
It's a welcome change, especially after reading some of Tom Clancy's books. While Clancy's characters support cover-ups to protect corrupt cops, as shown in Without Remorse
and Clear and Present Danger, Ross' would likely introduce the pigs to the business end of an icepick.
Kaydon August 6th, 2008, 02:28 AM

About to start: The Prometheus Deception by Robert Ludlum.
slarter August 9th, 2008, 02:47 AM

I'm reading Unintended Consequences by John Ross. I'm sure most of you are familiar with it.
GREAT book! I read it twice and thoroughly enjoyed it both times. :)
billybobobrain August 10th, 2008, 07:04 PM

The Shadows Of Power, James Perloff
None Dare Call It Conspiracy, Gery Allen
Orson Scott Card is also good.
megalomania August 13th, 2008, 03:05 AM

I grabbed a bunch of books for the summer to try to find some new stuff that I wouldn't ordinarily read. I am also doing something I never do, start reading a new book before
I finished the previous.
I am in the middle of Thirteen (TH1RTE3N), The Handmaid's Tale, and Criminal Paradise. I just finished the 48 Laws of Power last week and I started in on The 33 Strategies of
War.
I have been stuck on TH1RTE3N for awhile. I keep reading it before I go to bed, fall asleep, lose my place, and end up rereading stuff.
I don't read scientific and technical books like I would a novel, from cover to cover. I don't think that's the way most of these books should be read. I have so many it is
impractical anyway. I skim through them and only read the parts that interest me for the moment.
JekyllandHyde August 13th, 2008, 04:10 AM

I have recently finished reading:
The Prince - Niccol Machiavelli

The Art of War - Niccol Machiavelli
London_Dungeon August 13th, 2008, 10:59 AM

The Art of War - Niccol Machiavelli
TAOW was written bu Sun Tzu.
:P
joffe August 13th, 2008, 11:29 AM

London Dugeon - you definitely have some reading to catch up on.
http://www.amazon.com/Art-War-Prince-Niccol%C3%B2-Machiavelli/dp/160459361X/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218637659&sr=1-6
But there's even more. I've probably made it known that I have a weakness for French military history.
http://www.amazon.com/Art-War-Baron-Jomini-Special/dp/0976072661/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218637813&sr=1-1

I stand corrected!
I've read The Prince as well as Tzu's AOW, and was aware Machiavelli wrote Discourses, but never knew he did an AOW.
Jacks Complete August 16th, 2008, 08:52 AM

Currently reading "The omnivore's dilemma" which is, if you'll pardon the pun, serious food for thought. Also dipping in and out of "50 weapons that changed the world" which I
got for 3 from a remainder book shop. Some interesting perspectives in that, perhaps especially the arguments as to the effectiveness of them at the time of introduction
(Operational Analysis, though the author doesn't call it that)
megalomania August 19th, 2008, 12:45 PM

I bought the Art of War (by Sun Tzu) several years ago now, and I have had it sitting on my desk for almost as long, but I have yet to get around to reading it. I started it
once, maybe 9 months ago, but it has a 120 page introduction by the translator about the historical context of the book that I just don't want to wade through.
I actually kept it at work for a while, but someone complained to my boss that "that is inappropriate reading material for the work place" and I had to take it home. This was
actually too funny to get upset over. I actually took it back home because I was concerned someone might steal the book, even though in that place reading material would be
the last thing taken. Word was out though, there was a controversial book sitting on the shelf... best not to tempt the sticky fingers. I splurged for a nice hard cover edition you
see.
Obviously the complainant was an uncultured rube with no idea of the historical importance of this book. That's why he was a company executive... We have only el presidente
Bush to blame for the culture of fear and paranoia that has ingrained the collective psyche of the sheeple thanks to the War of Terror. That a mere book with the word "WAR"
on the spine should cause a stir is a good indicator of where our society is headed.
-=HeX=- August 19th, 2008, 05:52 PM

Mega: In schools these days they try to restrict our reading also. Last year I had my copies of 'Bravo Two Zero' and 'The one that got away' (Andy Mc Nab and Chris Ryan,
respectively) confiscated for 'Reading age inappropriate material' which 'Was not on the syllabus' and 'Had explicit content' during a free class. While other people were on their
cell phones or causing trouble, I was singlrd out because I was reading books about *gasp* war (somebody, please, think of the children!).
An associate in another State Sheeple Indoctrination Facility recieved a detention and had his parents phoned because he was reading an excerpt from COPAE at lunch and had
in his bag a printout of a file from a crapbook about boiling bleach to make KClO3. I also have been given out to by my english teacher for handing up a 'Disturbing and violent'
essay, albeit he admitted it WAS extremely well written. (The subject matter was the shooting of a 12 year old meth addicted mugger, seen from the shooters perspective).
These experiences show me how uneducated those who attempt to educate us can be! It also shows how certain material cannot be read in public anymore for fear of reprisal
by the sheeple.
Right now I am reading the works of Urbanski (again), and the ebook 'A Princess of Mars' (cant recall the title, it was set on 'Barsoom', Festergrump mentioned them in this
thread I believe).
iHME August 20th, 2008, 04:43 PM

Thank god we don't have people whining about what we read at school.
I have been reading rather violent books Since fifth grade (11 years old) mainly Sven Hassel and books about the winter and continuation war. The only one of them that has
ever shocked me was "The Partisans Are Attacking" it told about Soviet-Russian terror crews who raided civilian villages on the Eastern border, killing every one, women
children everything.
It was based on the survivors accounts. Fun fact: Once the Russians skinned a Finnish women alive to demoralize the pursuers, well they ran practically day and night to catch
em and killed every single one :)
I used to read books on boring classes at school, books that I had previously printed on a school printer books like P.A Lutys works. I don't do it any more just to make sure.
I'm currently reading:
- The $50 and Up Underground House Book By Mike Oehler

- Kings Chemistry Survival Guide By Jarred B. Ledgard
- Advanced Chemical Weapons Design and Manufacture by Tim Tobiason
- Crystal Sets To Sideband by Frank W. Harris
- I also read the 4 fires of "Resident Evil" novels, not the most hardcore entertainment but I liked the first ones.
megalomania August 22nd, 2008, 03:25 AM

Hmm, I don't recall ever bringing my controversial books to school, such as the Poor Man's James Bond. I spent my study hall time napping, when I actually had study hall. I
think the best book they made us read was Fahrenheit 451. I believe my school had a goal to specifically promote so-called controversial literature (from the perspective of a
religious soccer mom in the south, not what we would consider controversial) and it got its book list from a university English dept.
Positron August 26th, 2008, 12:09 PM

William Gibson: Necromancer :eek:
Alexires August 26th, 2008, 09:19 PM

And that is fantastic book. I love Gibson's work.
"...Burning through the night like livewire voodoo..."
Hinckleyforpresident August 27th, 2008, 01:40 PM

I just read Little Brother by Corry Doctorow. It's about a hacker kid fighting back against the DHS in a SHTF situation. It's a must read, IMO.
It's also free to download (legally too!) from authors site.
http://craphound.com/littlebrother/download/

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Happy Anniversary
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View Full Version : Happy Anniversary
Cobalt.45 July 24th, 2008, 08:07 PM

Mega, your perseverance here should be and I feel IS an inspiration to us all. Thank you.
Truly, we're not worthy (bowing and scraping a la Wayne's World optional:D).
Taken from a post in Forum Matters "Newbies: How did you find The... ": July 2008 marks the 9th anniversary of The Forum being online, and the 11th for Rogue Science. I
hope that whatever I have been doing so far to keep the site up is not just luck :)

I'll toast to that. RS has been my favorite site on the web since I joined. Cheers!

Long live RS. Best forum on the net, in my opinion
Thorald July 25th, 2008, 05:38 AM

Viva La Rogue Science!
I've only been here for a fraction of the time Rogue Science & The Forum has been online but already I have learnt so much about so many things, that undoubtedly I would
not have learned anywhere else on the Net...
Most forums don't last this long on the Net [Maybe they will in the future... :cool:] especially ones like this one. Ones that tackle issues and has discussions on the topics which
the Sheeple would not approve of...
So well done Mega, I think Cobalt summed it up well!
Thank you!

11 years of pissing off the man, eh? Congrats!

*toast* To RogueScience.org, a beacon of light in the darkness of ignorance around us.
May there be many more years yet for us to contribute our collective knowledge and to reap the harvest such knowledge brings.
It is a time to look back on all that has been accomplished, but also to reflect on all those we have lost along the way.
A further toast to Megalomania and NBK. All will admit that without them, The Forum would not be what it is today and would likely not exist at all.
megalomania August 2nd, 2008, 11:30 PM

You guys show me it has all been worthwhile. Soon I will unveil the redesigned roguesci.org, the fruit of my labors for the last 6 weeks. I recoded all the pages from scratch to
exclusively use style sheets for all presentation and structure. The pages even validate to XHTML strict. I designed my own modular templates to make it easier for me to add
new content, and I even redid most of the graphics.
On the surface the site still looks very much the same, it's the stuff under the hood I put a lot of work into. I almost have all the existing pages finished, I have been fighting
with figuring out how to use regular expressions and macros to paste all my content into my templates. I now make extensive use of excel spreadsheets to store, sort, and
filter all of the chemical information in the chemlab. Although the computer has been stubborn about it, I managed to get it to do all the copying and pasting more or less
automatically.
Enough dither, I could go on for an hour about all the clever tweaks, rollover effects, subtle stylistic flourishes, and efficient code. You guys will see for yourselves soon enough.
bluegunny August 19th, 2008, 04:00 PM

I've been a member for only a short time, and feel very fortunate to have found such a fountain of knowledge. Thanks for providing such a great site. Long live RS!!!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > H o m e m ade.. idiot or badluck?
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View Full Version : Homemade.. idiot or badluck?
Code Red July 27th, 20 08, 06:3 0 AM

Read here... http://www.news.com . a u / s t o r y / 0 , 2 3 5 9 9 , 2 4 0 8 4 5 8 1 - 4 2 1 , 0 0 . h t m l
Just what comm unist Australia n e e d s : m ad: Tighter restrictions no doubt.
Looks like Australians will soon need to prove why they need to buy a length of pipe, matches, and so on!
It's not like the backward government hasn't m ade useless knee jerk reactions in the past. :rolleyes:
Happy Hindu July 28th, 20 08, 03:0 6 AM

http://livenews.com .au/articles/2008/07/27/Hom e m a d e _ b o m b _ e x p l o d e s _ i n _ t e e n s _ f a c e
L o o k a t t h e c o m m ent left on LiveNews.com .au,
W hy would you waste resources taking this thing to hospital? Dum b e n o u gh and evil enough to try to build a bom b , a n d d u m b
enough to blow itself up, just let it die and rack one up to Karm a. The human race is better off without it.
If anything p isses m e off m ore than the governm ent banning and restricting chemicals an d telling everyone how bad we all
are, its a fucking idiot who will believe them . Im not saying that the kid wasn't a kewl, although he m ay have been, but it
m ight have been anyone of us and that fuckwit would have judged us upon that.
shady mutha July 31st, 2008, 06:43 PM

I really feel sorry for young fellow and I truly hope he recovers.
W hen I first got started this hobby I was around the sam e a g e a n d c o u n t m yself lucky I didnt end up in the hospita l.
The reckless things I did with AP as a teenager m a k e m e shiver when I think abo ut it now.

Dum b e n o u g h and evil enough to try to build a bom b
I'd tell him /her about the defence industry and unlike the kid they build those we apons and bombs with the intent of killing
people. Fucking idiots... (the sheeple, not the m ilitary-industrial complex, I like all m ilitary related gear)
And somewhere in Au stralia a governm ent official rubs is hands together saying: "Exelent, what a wonderful exam ple of our
education process, next stop privacy!"

"Dum b e n o u g h a n d e vil enough to try to build a bomb"
Incredible. That really astounds m e . P e o p l e j u s t d o n ' t s e e m to understand how the real world works.
As far as the sheeple are concerned, custard comes in packets, chickens grow without feathers and head, die from natural
c a u s e s a n d l a m b a p p ears in nature wrapped in plastic.
T h e y d o n ' t s e e m to m ake the connection that stuff needs to be killed for them to eat it, there is a life without preservatives,
and explosives have been used for good infinitely m ore than they have been used to kill.
Their sim plistic, black and white views continually astound me. It takes a special kind of asshole to write that. Even to go
further and say that if he ever builds a bom b t h e n s o m e o n e s h o u l d c o m e a n d k i l l h i m b e c a u s e h e i s e v i l .
W hat a fucktard.
Secong Nature August 10th, 2008, 06:01 AM

I take it that it's a roguesci user posting as Nobody?
It could be worth trying to at least give t h e s e p e o p l e s o m e i d e a a b o u t t h e r e a l n a t u r e o f e x p l o s i v e s .
I rem e m b e r p o s t i n g o n a c o m m e n t s p a g e a b o u t d y e i n g with TNP.

Alm ost every person said that the m an who posted the procedure was insane and on a deathwish,
'Leaving this stuff to dry will form yellow crystals which will explode on the slightest tough, rem oving your hand'
I felt that I had to de fend the poor m a n a n d i n d o i n g s o e v e n g o t s o m eone to look up TNP and decide to try dyeing rabbit
skins with it.
Som e good done after all.

Secong Nature - Not worth it when your IP is logged. Violates a LoP anyway (W in argum ents through actions, not words). R esist
t h o s e t e m p t a t i o n s t o m a k e y o u r s e l f f e el good by having others tell you that you are right.
Secong Nature August 11th, 2008, 07:37 AM

I do it in a relatively innocuous way, nothing hinting at anything illegal.
It's hard to win through actions over th e internet.
That is why it is pointless to argue over the internet.
It doesn't m atter wha t is illegal or not. People need to get out of the mind set that the law will protect them and that if they do
nothing illegal they won't be in the shit. The FedGov MAKES the law. They can detain you until they change the law so what you
did (while it wasn't illegal) is n ow illega l. Am b i g u o u s l a w s m e a n t h a t t h e m ost expensive lawyer, not the truth, wins.
C a n y o u a f f o rd a better lawyer than the governm ent?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Friend accidentally shot himself....with a gun that I sold him.
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View Full Version : Friend accidentally shot himself....with a gun that I sold him.
SafetyLast July 28th, 2008, 01:55 PM

There's a lesson to be learned here for sure.
I got a call while at work yesterday from a friend that was in the hospital.
It wasn't such a surprise to me due to the fact that this particular friend had been hospitalized about a dozen times in the seven years that I've known him. He's a very unsafe
sort, 22 years old, no braincells to speak of, the kind of guy you see doing 110 in a school zone.
It seems that he had accidentally shot himself with the .22lr rifle that I had sold him the day before. Luckily he had the muzzle pointed down and only managed to hit just
above the knuckle of his middle toe. Now he might lose the toe and will have to endure physical therapy for a month or so. The gun was confiscated by the police, but it's not
in my name so I'm not really sure what to expect. Hopefully johnny law won't come knockin' Here's the moral of the story, don't sell guns to accident prone idiots who don't
know what gun safety is. I wish I had thought before doing this, but I needed the money. What are your thoughts on this?
Hitech_Hillbilly July 28th, 2008, 03:03 PM

Well, it largely depends on where you live. On a national scale in the U.S., it is perfectly legal to sell a rifle to someone as long as that person is 18 years of age, and you
reasonably believe that they can legally own a firearm. Same is true for a handgun if person is 21 yrs of age.
Local laws may vary.

SafetyLast,
Do you live in the USA? (If you don't this may not be much help.)
It is legal in the USA to own a rifle.
What state and city?

You need to check your state and city laws for "special requirements. Gun card, registration, etc.
Are you and he both over 18?

You don't want to be charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Again check you state laws.
Can this person legally own a firearm?

Known drug addict, mental illness, felon; Check the federal gun laws for other requirements (you can probably find them on line).
Was the gun legal?

Not stolen (to your knowledge) or illegally modified in any way?
If questioned by police: Don't lie and ask to speak to a lawyer (and if you are charged get one because you cannot afford not to).
And there is always the possibility of a civil lawsuit brought against you by your friend(?).
I have been down that road a few times myself. I hope this helps some. :)
SafetyLast July 28th, 2008, 03:52 PM

Yes i'm in the US. He's 22 I'm 24. To the best of my knowledge the gun was legal.
He was shooting in a residential area within city limits which is illegal. That's probably why the gun was confiscated I think I should be fine legally, it's just a shame that it
happened. I don't know why I associate with such reckless people....

Well look on the bright side, since he just shot himself in the toe this will be a learning experience for him, every time he looks at a gun he'll think of his missing little piggy and
have respect for firearms.
Barnacles July 29th, 2008, 04:02 AM

Not to start a war but way to be captain responsible and caring for your neighbours.
You sell a gun to a guy who by your admittance would be described as "very unsafe sort, 22 years old, no braincells to speak of, the kind of guy you see doing 110 in a school
zone,the type you see and say to yourself, what can I do to get this guy a gun ."
*note the underlined was added by me as to show my view on how I think this phrase would've best been wrapped up.
Just curious, why on earth would you sell a guy like this a gun that just plain irresponsible. If he killed someone would that not have bothered you???
Ill refrain from further addressing this action, to prevent my banning and an off topic argument.
Vitalis July 29th, 2008, 04:31 AM

Whoops! haha, this is classic. Next time sell him a poorly made handgun and instruct him to look into the barrel to make sure it's loaded. That will solve this particular problem
once and for all.
22 years old and he shoots himself with a .22LR, awesome. Maybe if he survives to his 25th birthday he can blow his own head off with a .25 caliber?
Don't stand too close to this genius after you sell him firearms...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Anybody speak a little russian?
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monkeyboy August 1st, 2008, 03:14 AM

Just downloaded this book:
http://rapidshare.com / f i l e s / 1 3 3 8 3 4 1 9 7 / R i z e n k o _ G a r a z . r a r
It appears to be a short book (33 pages) on garage construction?

But it looks like they're building a cellar under the garage?
If anybody could translate the captions under pics 2-6, I'd be much oblig ed.
Can't talk acrobat into OCR'ing a russian doc. can't type it into g oogle translate.
/ h a d t o c h a n g e t h e n a m e of the pdf to get foxit to open it. ACDsee doesn't like russian le tters in file name s either...
Hitech_Hillbilly August 1st, 2008, 04:41 PM

Heres a roug h translation of the captio ns:
2. Garage with inspection pit and underground storeroom
3. Brick garage
4. Exhaust system i n g a r a g e
5. Equipment of garage with inspection pit and underground storeroom
6. Entrance ram p
It is basically a garag e with an oil change pit, a nd since it is so cold in Russia, there is roo m underground that acts as cold
storage.
monkeyboy August 1st, 2008, 05:45 PM

Hm m m , that sounds pretty cool.
I'll have to see if I ca n talk one of the russians at school into translating the whole thing for me.
I wonder if any of the m have a russian version of acrobat, that could OCR it. Then it could just be sent thro u g h g o o g l e
translate & stitched back together...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Funniest chemistry video
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View Full Version : Funniest chemistry video
Hinckleyforpresident August 2nd, 2008, 12:56 PM

This was sent to me, I find it to be hilarious:
http://www.eppendorf.com/int/hawkpopup.php?contentid=13&gclid=CKa1593Sx5Q C F Q O j F Q o d T S 2 0 k A
Any of you know of any funny chem v i d e o s ?

O n e m ore manufacturer who has realized that comm ercials should be content.
And it m ight actually be a useful thing to have in a lab that does a lot of pipetting.
Also, im provising one from cheap parts (read. dot m atrix and inkjet printers) should be easy as no heavy forces are involved.
fluoroantimonic August 9th, 2008, 01:10 AM

W ow. It amazes me that they would go to that much effort to make something that laughable. Even if your hand was about to
fall off from pipetting, I seriously doubt you could keep a straight face watching that! Maybe it was meant to be funny... but
t h a t d o e s n ' t s e e m like a very good way to get the m essage across. At least its original...
Lewis August 9th, 2008, 05:35 AM

Bwahaha!
These things are definitely real, I just wouldn't im a g i n e a l a b s u p p l y c o m p a n y t o h a v e t h e s h e e r a u d a c i t y t o m a k e s u c h a

video.
Hilarious.
bluegunny August 19th, 2008, 03:48 PM

Very funny. But I m ust agree....Not a very effective com mercial. More like a spoof that you would see on a late nigh t television
show. Thanks for sharing.

R e m inds me of those terrible sex-ed videos we were forced to watch in highschool.
-=HeX=- August 20th, 2008, 02:51 PM

HAHAHAHAHA! Oh fucking brilliant! And as an ad its effective for 3 reasons:
1: Its eye catching and attractive, so you will get m ore attention.
2: Its witty and humo rous so you wont forget it easily.
3 : I t u s e s a b e a t a n d rhythm to plant the nam e of the device in the viewers subconscious.
I liked how it took the piss out of how scientists don't m ake great lovers thanks to the retarded am ounts of late nig hts in the
lab, and how one of the dancers with the pipette m ade pipetting feel... Almost dirty for som e r e a s o n .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W elcom e to Stalin's USA
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Code Red August 5th, 2008, 07:18 AM

I'm all for a country protecting it's citizens from evil, but this is insane.
I'm sure Sad dam Hussein wasn't this pathetic.
S e e m s to m e that it's about time the people of the U nited State s t o p p l e t h e u s e l e s s g o v e rnm ent controlling them .
Read here to feel sick...
http://news.yahoo.com /s/nm /20080801/tc_nm/usa_security_laptops_dc;_ylt=AoAm uQsB1TAsyhY7l4AoX t9k 24cA
phrankinsteyn A ugus t 5t h, 2008, 01: 24 PM

There is a sim ilar thread on this in the: Issues and O pinions> U$A Court Decisions.
Charlie Workman August 16th, 2008, 04:26 AM

I'm all for a country protecting it's citizens from evil, but this is insane.
I'm sure Sad dam Hussein wasn't this pathetic.
S e e m s to m e that it's about time the people of the U nited State s t o p p l e t h e u s e l e s s g o v e rnm ent controlling them .
Read here to feel sick...
http://news.yahoo.com /s/nm /20080801/tc_nm/usa_security_laptops_dc;_ylt=AoAm uQsB1TAsyhY7l4AoX t9k 24cA
My god, this is an incredibly stupid post. And Saddam Hussein wasn't this pathetic? Som ething like this bunches your panties
up that tight? I am at a complete loss for words,
Jacks Complete August 16th, 2008, 07:39 AM

Look to where the m oney is.
Y o u a r e a U S com pany, struggling to k eep up with C hinese innovation, which is growing fast, as Ch i n a h a s s p e n d 1 0 x m o r e o n
it's science base in th e past few years, and they now have a country run by scientists - comm unists, yes, but all bar one is a
scientist - pu lling back hundre ds of foreign trained students back to hom e with high-paid jobs and perks like lim o s . W h a t
would you do?
Use the law to fight back. Take the confidential research off them at Custom s, read through it, distribute it to those who need
to com p e t e , a n d p u t T e a m U SA back at the top through u n d e r h a n d m e t h o d s .
Of course, once the rest of the world wises up to it, they sim ply don't transfer data like that any m ore, and switch to posting
half of the encrypted file through a flash card in the post, and the other half via a web server, and hide the key inside a JPG.
Harder, to be sure, but if it's a business deal worth a few hundre d m illion , what would you do?
I know of a situation where sim ply by bugging the fax m achines in a hotel, a fore ign gove rnm ent m a n a g e d t o d r i v e t h e
h a r d e s t b a r g a i n p o s s i b l e f o r s o m e military equipment supply. And that was a big com pany and a 3rd world country. This is the
USA doing th e s a m e.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Amateur chemist raided, for doing experiments!
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View Full Version : Amateur chemist raided, for doing experiments!

It is a residential home in a residential neighborhood, she said. This is Mr. Deeb s hobby. Hes still got bunches of ideas. I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere.
This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation. There are regulations about how much youre supposed to have, how its detained, how its
disposed of.
@ Make (http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/08/home_science_under_attack.html)
@ Slashdot.org (http://news.slashdot.org/news/08/08/12/182243.shtml)
@ Telegram (http://www.telegram.com/article/20080809/NEWS/808090323/1008/)
This looks bad for US-based chemists on this board.
Slashdot sums it pretty well:

Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because
I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down.'"
slarter August 16th, 2008, 04:16 PM

When I retired from the military a couple of years ago, I took everything I had to the demo range and disposed of it, because I was afraid of crap like this.
Massachusetts is bad and Kalifornia is not far behind. Also, this sets a bad precedent for the leftist loons to exploit.
tmp August 17th, 2008, 11:42 AM

Like Maryland and California, that state is run by whackjobs. So Mr. Deeb
was violating zoning laws. Maybe. It still sounds like bullshit to me. Another
translation for Ms. Wilderman's actions: I'm a stuckup bitch of a civil servant
who is dissatisfied with my job. Therefore I'm going to make Mr. Deeb's life
miserable to show him and others who's really in charge ! After all I have to
justify my job to the taxpayers.
Rbick August 18th, 2008, 10:53 AM

They cut out the part where the old hag started to grin and said "WELCOME TO 1984, MOTHER FUCKERS!", proceeded by a drawn out satanic laugh.
This is really bad. Not only did they BREAK into his house, they also STOLE his possessions. They did all of this without a warrant and still aren't returning his stuff? I think there
is another form of government where this would be ok. Its called communism. The government actually committed crimes here; 1. Armed robbery 2. Breaking and entering.
This guy could even try and sue, but with everyone being so scared of chemicals he would probably lose. I'm so pissed that ignorant people will look at this and say "Well its a
good thing they caught him, he was experimenting with chemicals!". They have done a good job at keeping the sheeple afraid of chemistry by keeping them ignorant and
portraying chemicals as EVIL. Those bastards better stop pushing, cause someone is going to start pushing back.
AcMav August 23rd, 2008, 03:20 AM

Sadly I happen to live in this state. It seems the only reason he got hit here is because the Firefighters entered his home to stop a fire and saw chemicals and panicked. Once
the firefighters panicked I bet it got out of control fast. I would get scared too If I walked into even a small fire and saw containers of powdered aluminum and AN sitting
around.
I can understand the governments concern if the chemicals were as horrendously stored as stated in the article from the Worcester Telegram. However I would have assumed
they would have issued him a citation or order to fix his storage. If I ever begin to have any kind of Laboratory in my home I'm going for BATF certification and having my
storage checked so i can tell my local officials to screw off if they ever give me grief.
The only thing that bugs me is the fact that they called him out on Zoning issues? I find it ridiculous I cannot have a recreational lab in my home, I derive vast amounts of joy
experimenting with chemistry, why does it have to be industrial. I'm wondering if this guy has been pattening a large number of processes from his home, In which case I could
understand a fine.
I Think overall the intentions were good, the follow through was way too harsh, I would have to see what this "Lab" looked like to judge for myself.
Loveofchaos August 23rd, 2008, 02:12 PM

Sadly I happen to live in this state. It seems the only reason he got hit here is because the Firefighters entered his home to stop a fire and saw chemicals and panicked. Once
the firefighters panicked I bet it got out of control fast. I would get scared too If I walked into even a small fire and saw containers of powdered aluminum and AN sitting
around.
I would be scared too if all those chemicals were actually there, but in the MAKE: article, this was stated:
"Authorities concede that the chemicals found in Deeb's basement lab were no more hazardous than typical household cleaning products. Despite that, authorities confiscated
"all potentially hazardous chemicals" (which is to say the chemicals in Deeb's lab) from his home, and called in a hazardous waste cleanup company to test the chemicals and
clean up the lab."
I think if they found Ammonium nitrate or powdered aluminum they would have tried to justify their unwarranted search with by saying that they had found "Main ingredients
to building bombs!!"
You know the press is gay about that kinda stuff. I think this whole thing is utter BS.
AcMav August 26th, 2008, 02:46 AM

I do agree with it being exaggerated Chaos, but there are many chemicals other than the ones I listed I wouldn't want to see as I run into a burning building. Sadly I hate to
sound like I'm taking the FedGov's side on this, but if the man wasn't storing his Chemicals safely he doesn't deserve them at all.
I believe the reason for this crackdown locally is because recently we had an explosion at a chemical plant in a suburban setting that caused 6.6 million in damages. Literally
rattled my house from miles away, All because the company had been lazy and didn't put their chemicals away at night.
We know it better than the FedGov, Chemicals arn't something to screw around with. If Mr. Deeb couldn't understand that and keep his lab safe and tidy, He deserves to loose
it. I might be going too hard on the guy, but it was hammered into my head the importance of safely storing chemicals (I worked stocking a chemical locker for a local
company for a summer job) and I stand by my feelings that having all these chemicals just sitting around isn't good for anyone. I wouldn't want Mr. Deeb as my neighbor if
thats how he runs his lab.
Emil August 26th, 2008, 03:15 PM

Acmav - Don't talk as if we know his lab was some kind of super hazard just waiting to burn or explode, that is probably rubbish. To the authorities, any ghetto lab, even if it
maybe quite organised, will be described like it is an accident waiting to happen, with the chemicals not "properly" stored. This is bullshit. It is easy for them to say things like
this, their labs are thousands of sqaure feet big, but your average home chemist will be using a room probably no more than 12x12, which when you have to store chemicals is
terribley small. They just love labelling chemicals as evil and it's the classic curse of the mad bomber living in the local priests quiet little neighbourhood.
There is only so much one can do to store safely, but at the end of the day chemicals are chemicals. I wouldn't really want to run into any of them that were burning in a
house fire or an emergency. Being sensible is definately top priority, and yes I do not agree with messy and untidy labs but come on, this is a news source we are refering to.
Besides without real top notch storage facilities, storage really is a bit meaningless to some degree.
I mean come on, you have a bottle of Sulfuric acid in your lab, in a raging house fire is it really going to make much difference whether it is stored in some flimbsy wooden
cabinet opposed to left on the table. If it was his poor misuse of chemicals that caused the fire in the first place, then that is a different kettle of fish.
Gerbil August 26th, 2008, 05:37 PM

I'm not familiar with zoning issues, living in the UK, but this is extreme even by police state standards. From all accounts the guy was simply spending his retirement inventing
things such as sealants for baby food jars. Hardly the hallmark of a drug/weapons baron.
Even more disturbing is a comment on the Worcester Telegram & Gazette website:
Everyone seems quick to blame the government, but instead I think we should applaud them. WE ARE AT WAR PEOPLE. The 911 terrorists were very similar to Mr. Deeb.
Outwardly they appeared to be hard working tax paying citizens while secretly they harbored a desire to commit horrific acts of terrorism.
How do we know that Mr. Deeb is any different from the terrorist who want to destroy our country--our children. The government has every right to monitor and control
behavior that is out of the ordinary. If they don't the terrorist may win the war and we'll be forced to learn Arabic and abandon Jesus.
God bless people like Ms. Wilderman for standing up for our democracy. We need more civil servants like her, not less.
-Joe
Morons like Joe are destroying the Western world.

Gerbil - Shit like religion is destroying the western world. There is WAY too much Jesus-juice in that paragraph for my liking.
AcMav - Emil has the right of it. Sure, if the guy was sleeping on bottles of HF and kept other chemicals in his medicine cupboard where "the children" could get to them, then
he would be asking to get his ass ripped for improper storage. But when it is the governments word that he was improperly storing chemicals, I would give him the benefit of
the doubt any day. These fuckers would do you for improper storage because you didn't have the pool chlorine locked up in a chemical cabinet.
They are just looking for an excuse to make "chemicals" and people that "play with chemicals" look bad, so that the general populace does the work for them.
Welcome 1984! I love the thought police!
Rbick August 27th, 2008, 10:32 AM

Dude, I believe in Jesus and I am not taking sides with these nut jobs. Whats wrong with believing in the things that he taught? If people actually studied what Jesus was all
about, they would realize that if a government is starting to overstep its bounds, its ok to fight back. He was one of the most rebellious people of his days and fought the
government of His time. You're right, RELIGION is destroying society, not a belief in God. When people turn it into hierarchies and a laundry list of rules, thats were you get
morons like Muslim extremists, Baptists, and "Joe".
Anyway, I don't know where this thick skulled sheep got the idea that Deebs is in any way comparable to Muslim extremists. The article even claimed that there was no
explosive material found, so there shouldn't even be an ounce of suspicion that he was trying to blow something up. You throw "9/11" and "chemicals" into a sentence and the
majority of people (who are ignorant) go nuts. I don't possess the words to express myself right now I'm so pissed.
The sad part is that people like Wilderman now think they are heroes and participated in putting a "bad man" in jail. She didn't save anyone or accomplish anything, she just
perpetuated the Big Brother agenda. Good for her, she should get the biggest sheeple award.

Rbick - I have no problem with people believing in Jesus/Mohammed/Buddha/whatever. I just said there was way too much "I'm following Gods plan and I can say anything I
want because I'm religious and you are a heathen" in what Joe had to say. Joe is a religious nut, and need to shut the fuck up.
Belief in a guiding set of morals has done wonderful things for the world. Organised religion is just as bad as Governments, even worse it could be argued.
The most hurtful thing that the Gov. can do to us is to make ordinary citizens their agents by giving them a sense of satisfaction from ruining other peoples life in the name of
"The Law".
We need to start changing what people derive pleasure from. Less TV, less "dobbing" others in, less "I have to earn money to be happy". Only then will we start to turn the
tide of public opinion. They will look at articles like this and actually read between the line as opposed to just absorbing it like sheep dip on a sheeple.
Rbick August 28th, 2008, 02:31 PM

Joe is a religious nut, and need to shut the fuck up.
Right on. He [Joe] has somehow twisted the idea of believing in a supreme being into standing up for the arrest of an innocent man and following a messed up government. I
didn't mean to seem defensive in my response Alexires, I was just clarifying.
The funny part about how people make themselves to be so righteous and high is that it is actually wrong if you believe in Jesus. The man said to humble yourself and
consider yourself no better than ANYONE. Strange how people manage to completely slaughter that.
They will look at articles like this and actually read between the line as opposed to just absorbing it like sheep dip on a sheeple.
I had to comment on how hilarious this comment is, but so true at the same time. A majority of responses to this article was probably "Thank god they stopped that evil man
before he killed someone!". I wish there was a way to reach people with our opinions without getting arrested. Depressing...

Really, though, a residence is not the best place to run a lab, is it? Especially one that is attached to or immediately adjacent to another dwelling.
Often, expediency takes priority over common sense.
What you do to yourself or family may be one thing, but when it could effect someone who is a non-participant? There is the problem.
I'm as guilty as foolish Mr. Deeb; I experiment in my kitchen on occasion. One important difference is that I'm apart from anyone else by a good margin. Even so, anything
toxic, explosive or potentially dangerous gets banished to the outbuilding (cold in winter, hot in summer and a long walk).
Not knowing the exact contents of Deeb's stash leaves much to conjecture- but it is documented that there were chemicals (however innocuous) left in disarray.
Good "housekeeping" is a fundamental aspect of a safe lab. Poor housekeeping is just not good joo joo, any way you slice it, IMO (Murphy's law and all...:().
Where I DO take exception is how the fucking authorities took the man's property!!!:mad: Likely, Deeb was cowed into it by intimidation and threats of prosecution- clearly a
blatant abuse of power and an illegal search and seizure. But IMO, had his shit been locked away in a proper storage cabinet, the fire fighters may well have overlooked it
altogether, besides being contained in the event of deflagration.

There is a saying among chemists, if you have enough time to clean your lab, you aren't spending enough time on research. I have been in a lot of labs, and quite frankly
what is considered "put away" amounts to the same thing as putting stuff under your kitchen sink.
The issue at hand is not how some chemicals may or may not have been properly stored, the issue is the fedgov terrorized a law abiding citizen by breaking into his home,
stealing his property, and poisoned his reputation by associating the pursuit of science with terrorism.
Joe, the brainwashed freak who is a shill for Satan, thinks a chemist having chemicals is "behavior that is out of the ordinary." I don't what is more discouraging of all, ignorant
statements like that, or the fedgov actually admitting they chemicals were harmless, but they took them anyway.
Let me be clear on this: there is no "proper" way to store chemicals in the eyes of the government. You can never be in compliance of something they make up just to ruin
you. This is like a young child's game where he makes up the rules as he goes along so he always wins.
This is a war against science, only the fedgov stooges are too stupid to realize it. This is not the first attack on science either, it is only a new despicable low. I am actually
physically nauseous reading about this.
My reaction to state sponsored terrorism (by the state of Massachusetts) is to devote a little of my time writing new information telling people how to make chemicals. I think it
is high time I finished my chemical weapon labs and put them online. I shall dedicate the information to the Massachusetts imbeciles; their freedom raping chicanery is just the
motivation I need.

What horrifies me, Mega, is that all the sheeple applaud the government for doing it. You expect the government to do things like that, but where is the counterbalance? Where
are the safeties and checks that stop the government from being tyrannical?
Unfortunately, we seem to think what was good 400 years ago for our forefathers is good enough for us. But that just isn't so. With all the modern technology around,
suddenly the meaning behind their words are lost, and the literal translation gives the government loops holes and allows them to abuse their power like never before.
I'll leave you with a couple of famous quotes.
"When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, 'This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to
know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked;
contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anythingyou can't conquer a free man; the
most you can do is kill him."
Robert A. Heinlein, If This Goes On, 1940
"Only the mob and the elite can be attracted by the momentum of totalitarianism itself. The masses have to be won by propaganda."
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
"Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state."

Noam Chomsky, Media Control: The Spectacular Achievements of Propaganda, 1997
"As societies grow decadent, the language grows decadent, too. Words are used to disguise, not to illuminate, action: You liberate a city by destroying it. Words are used to
confuse, so that at election time people will solemnly vote against their own interests."
Gore Vidal, Imperial America, 2004
What more is there to say?
Cobalt.45 August 29th, 2008, 03:04 AM

I'll just say this: Maybe I'm way off base w/the idea of a tidy workplace; that's my MO, and it's served me well.:) I'm no chemist, that's for sure. Mainly pyro stuff. Once
ruined a pound of KClO3 w/<1g of S, because both were out at the same time, and a door was opened... Poof, there you go.
Am very much looking forward to your additions, Mega. Massachusetts hath no idea what she has wrought.:eek:
tmp September 12th, 2008, 12:36 PM

Once, over 2 years ago, the cops came to my place because of one of my
room mate's drunken screaming at me because I wouldn't kiss his ass. I had
chewed his ass out earlier for quitting the last good job he's ever had.
One officer stepped into my bedroom and asked me about the idiot. Many of
my chemicals were in plain sight although unopened. Some of my lab gear
was in plain sight also. Not one question was asked. There have been no
visits to my place because of this. Maybe they just didn't care. Certainly
there were no complaints against me. Out of caution, the chemicals have
been relocated - just in case.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Hoping for the return of the
latter day edit feature and beautifying
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I v a g u e l y r e m e m ber that way back when you could edit your posts for quite some tim e after you posted. I personally would
l i k e t o g o b a c k a n d r e v i s e s o m e o f m y posts for the followin reasons. 1) to rem ove evidence of stupidy and/or insanity. 2) to
c h a n g e t h e f o m atting tags to be in BB code (rather than HTML or whatever.) 3) to update inform ation that is now wrong 4)
spelling 5) to split and clarify m u d d y i d e a s . I d o n ' t s u p p o s e t h e r e c o u l d b e a o l d p o s t d e u g l i f i c i a t o n t a s k .
festergrump August 18th, 2008, 09:51 PM

Y o u ' v e b e e n a r o u n d f o r s e e m i n g l y e v e r, Jam e s , s o s u r e l y y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s ( a n d a g o o d o n e , a t t h a t )
posts can only be editted for so long is that people cannot take back anything they might have said simply because they go t a
new GF or wh atever who might not approve of their previous opinions and such, or get pissed at the staff for whatever reason
a n d r e m ove their posts (like taking your "ball" and going hom e l i k e a b a b y ) .
The edit feature is a nice feature to have to be able to correct gramm atical errors, typos, and some brainfa rts, but basically the
real safeties are the SUBMIT REPLY bu t t o n a n d P R E V I E W P O S T b u t t o n .
Aside from that, disallowing the EDIT button be y o n d a r e a s o n a b l e t i m e p revents som ething called "baiting".
B a i t i n g i s w h e n o n e o r m o r e p e o p l e l u r e a m e m ber into a heated discussion with words chosen to prom pt the m e m ber into a
flam ewar, then they edit their own posts to look innocent, hoping to get the m e m b e r b a n n e d o r f l a m e d b e y o n d r e a s o n a b l e
retort. I've seen this happen on many other bo ards but never th is one.
M a y b e M e g a c o u l d e x t e n d t h e tim e alotted for post editting, but I personally don't feel it should be any m ore than a few
m inutes.
I tend to write m y posts out in Notepad first and copy/paste them in and preview them first for errors or broken links. That
s e e m s to work well fo r me, although the m i s t a k e s d o s o m e t i m e s e v a d e m e...

I a m still testing the new edit features, but I only changed the e dit tim e from several hours to 15 m inutes. Why this particular
tim e fram e ? B e c a u s e i t ' s t h e s a m e t i m e I personally use to edit my posts if I need to, and what's good for the goose...
1) Evidence of stupidity and insanity usually gets the user rem o v e d , w h i c h i s g o o d r e a s o n t o k e e p t h e e v i d e n c e a r o u n d .
2) I am not sure what you me an by formating in BB tags since they are already used. U n l e s s y o u m ean the very old posts that
are form atted as HTML, in which case I still need to run a batch query, but I don't want to do that until I am d a m n s u r e I k n o w
what I am doing first. I have never run such a query because the potential to screw up or adversely alter the entire Forum is
very high, hence m y reluctance.
3) This I will grant you I need to work on. However, the big update changed so much I have a ton of such things to find and
f i x . I a m g e t t i n g t h e s e t h i n g s t a k e n c a r e o f o n e b y o n e , b u t a l o t o f m y work on the site is behind the scen e s , u n d e r t h e h o o d
type work few ever se e or notice.
4) That's nothing I can fix, technically. W e will never have perfect spellers, no ma tter what rules The Forum m a y h a v e . U n l e s s
you mean there are spelling errors in The Forum proper that I have written?
5) I am not sure what you me an by this one.
For m e , t h e t h o u g h t o f g o i n g t h r o u g h t h o u s a n d s o f o l d p o s t s a n d c l e a n i n g t h e m u p i s o n e r o u s . N o t j u s t b e c a u s e o f t h e t e d i u m ,
but because of the risk of accidentally editing away valu able knowledge. I have done a lot of work with batch queries and
regular expressions the last couple of m onths, but I still have a lot to learn before really trusting what I am doing o n the live
board.
I swear som e uber-nerd wrote the language of regular expressions to impress other nerds with its obscurity and vagueness.
Heaven's forbid they m a k e s o m e c o m m ands in plain English. I have bee n trying out Powe rGREP with Regex Buddy (look em
up), but there is still a learning curve to conquer.
K e e p i n m i n d I a m a l s o r e s p o n s i b l e f o r k e e p i n g t h e r e s t o f t h e R o g u e S c i e n c e w e b s i t e g o i n g , n o t j u s t T h e F o r u m . I spent a lot
of tim e working on The Forum up to th e s u m m e r , a n d I s p e n t m uch of m y tim e d uring the sum m e r working on Rogue Science.
I tend to work m ore effectively by focusing m y efforts on narrow range of interrelated projects. I will get back to The Forum
soon enough.
P e r h a p s m y perspective of the site is a little different th an m o s t p e o p l e . I h a v e b e e n d o i n g this for 11 years now, so to me the
long term go als are the most im portant. There are things I have to do now to guide and shape the direction of the site years
down the roa d. Some things a r e q u i c k e a s y f i x e s , a n d s o m e t h i n g s r e q u i r e a l o t o f t h o u g h t a n d d e liberation before I act to
s a v e m e a lot of trouble and work down the road. A few months going by with som e t h i n g n e e d i n g f i x e d i s n ot that b i g o f a d e a l
in comparison to the big picture.

m y comm e n t s o n m e g a l o m a n ias com m e n t s o n m y com m e n t s .
1) You have yet to kick me out. (despite the fact I am probably subliterate (I can be self critical), stupid (d itto) and i n s a n e ( I
h a v e 1 2 s a n e f r i e n d s a n d a m com p e n s a t i n g f o r t h e m )
2 ) I a n d s e v e r a l o t h e r m e m ber have o ld posts w/ HTML tags rather than BB ones.
3) you pretty m uch covered it.
4) I know no one is p erfect. W e just need to start using spell & gramm ar check (spell check doesn't catch if you spe ll the wrong
word the righ t way etc.) for our local En glish (British English dem a n d s m o r e U s etc.)
5) I crank out some Ideas you have to be crazy and/or stupid to understand and they're really need translated so regular
forum ites can understand them .
I s u p p o s e s o m e o n e w h o w a s a b e t t e r p r o g r a m m er than m e could write a script/program thast would incrementally change
HTML in post to BB code and display the output of rendering the befores and afte rs. I don 't know how the internals would work
though.
To festergrum p, good points. I vaguely recall that a form e r m e m b e r h a d a f i t a n d d e l e t e d all their posts, IIRC NBK was really
ticked. I don't recall any instances of baiting, but usually I'm lucky if I ca n r e m e m ber yesterday well.
Generally: I suppose things will remain the sam e while evil inhabits the hearts of men (the race not the gender).
totenkov August 20th, 2008, 02:06 PM

I crank out som e I d e a s y o u h a v e t o b e c r a z y a n d / o r s t u p i d t o u n d e r s t a n d
Generally, I don't like it when I hear this. You have dangerously placed yourself in the "hazard to self and others" section.
Based on your previous posts I would be very careful asking that the forum is rea rranged for your own sake. I have never had
any problems posting, spell checking and previewing m y posts, neither should you.
Then I found this, tru ly astonishing and m ystifying:
they're really need translated so regular forum ites can understand them .
Exactly what the fuck does this mean? Are you stating that som e of your "ideas" are so profound and revolutionary that you
cannot get your ideas across in the sim p l e E n g l i s h ? : e e k : Y o u r s p e l l i n g i s a p p a l l i n g , i t l o o k s l i k e y o u h a v e b e e n o f f y o u r m e d s
for the recom m e n d e d a m ount of tim e, what has been the point of your post? Kicking and screaming about how the forums
bare posting options have been laid out? You may have been around since 2001, but that is absolutely no excuse to post this
kind of garble......dodging m ods since 2001 indeed. :ro lleyes:
Kaydon August 20th, 2008, 05:38 PM

If only there was a way to grant certain m e m b e rs more tim e t h a n o t h e r s .
Meh, I haven't had any issues with editing. I usually type up my replies in W o r d a n d t h e n c o p y / p a s t e . I t d o e s t h e s p e l l
checking for you.
Since most forums use BBcode, I see no reason why one would use HTML.
Alexires August 21st, 2008, 12:22 AM

Y o u h a v e a l r e a d y b e e n w a r n e d b y m y s e l f a b o u t t h e n e e d f o r y o u t o c l e a n u p y o u r p o s t s a n d m a k e them re levant, Jam e s .
Y o u n e e d t o t a k e a t w o w e e k b r e a k a n d c l e a n u p y o u r s h i t . Y o u h a v e n ' t b e e n d o d g i n g m o d s , y o u h a v e b e e n here by the grace

of God....and all grace runs out eventually.
fluoroantimonic August 22nd, 2008, 12:57 AM

T h e r e a s o n I w o u l d l i k e t o h a v e a l o n g er edit tim e is to update posts. Every once in a while I have mistakes to fix too. Mainly it
occu rs when I'm actively researching som ething, I'll m a k e a p o s t a b o u t s o m e t h i n g I f o u n d , t h e n a f e w h o u r s o r d a y s l a t e r f i n d
out m ore or different inform ation. At the mom ent I have to double post, which I try to avoid, but som etim e s i t s e e m s
unavoidable. Is double posting really a bad thing if the inform ation is useful?
megalomania August 22nd, 2008, 01:55 AM

The problem with editing a post a few days later is that many people may not see it. The new posts search only displays new
a d d e d p o s t s , b u t t h e r e i s n o o p t i o n t o i d e n t i f y i f a p o s t h a s b e e n c h a n g e d other than the "edited by" stam p that ge t s a d d e d .
If you have already read the post a few days back, and there are several posts after that, you m ay never notice that a post
changed.
It is for this reason that a lim it is im p o s e d o n e d i t i n g p o s t s . A m e n d e d i n f o r m ation should always b e a d d e d a s a n e w p o s t t o

insure all people can see it.
Alexires August 22nd, 2008, 03:06 AM

fluoroantimonic - W e understand your concerns but as Mega has said, the limited edit function serves a purpose. I don't think
(not a chance in hell) that it will be extended to such a large tim e fram e .
Also, I know that the other m oderators and myself wont ban you for double posting if your second post is a few hou rs or more
after your original post. Give us m ore credit than that, we know what it is like to find information re levant a few hours after you
have posted.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Forum video 2008
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-=HeX=- August 19th, 2008, 06:29 PM

Hey fellow forum ites.
I finally had the willpower to begin com piling my vast scelection of videos from the forum a n d s o m e f r o m elsewhere (youtube,
r a n d o m c o o l e x p l o s i o n/ pyro vids, the FTP) and so far, after 2 hours of W indows m o v i e m a k e r , I a m o n * g a s p * 3 8 s e c o n d s o f
video. Most videos end up heavily cropped to m ake it all blend better and im p r o v e t h e p a c e , a n d s o f a r i t s l o o k i n g o k .
The soundtrack will be 'Before I forget' by Slipk not, or 'Firestarte r' by Prodigy, however I want your suggestions people!
Also those of you who want to send m e photos, videos, soundtrack reccom endations to try out/ use in it, m y em ail is lordi--
1 0 1 @ h o t m ail.com a n d m y M S N i s t h e s a m e .
The video will be up when its ready, and m y . p d f o n a z i d e s , a n d m y O T C a z i d e t e sting, is postponed for the next while.
EDIT: I was feeling generous, so heres a preview I put up on rapidshare for your viewing pleasure (or displeasure if I m a d e a
balls of it) :D
http://rapidshare.de/files/402 76240/expl_0001.wm v.htm l
Thorald August 19th, 2008, 08:28 PM

'Before I Forget' and 'Firestarter' are both fantastic songs, however given the nature of the video I think Firestarter would be
m ore approp riate...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Mind Reading Program
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Cobalt.45 August 20th, 2008, 04:02 AM

http://www.bored.com /m ystica lball/index.htm
I suppose there's an obvious solution as to how it's done. This isn't the first one of these I've seen, but I can't remem ber how
the other one went.
Could som eone enlighten dumb-ass m e?

The two num b e r s , a d d e d t o g e ther and then taken from the original will g ive you a multiple of 9. All the multiple of 9's (9,18,
27, 36, etc.) all have the same symbol.
It re sets each time, so they are kind o f random looking , but the y aren't.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Fitness
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Red Beret August 24th, 2008, 12:01 AM

I thought I'd post and see how many of us keep fit.
I myself have always done martial arts at some point, but since I havent trained for a w hile, I have started running, and pushups/situps.
I think anyone that wants to be able to handle a street fight, or just be helathy, needs some kind of physical activity.
I've been running a few days per week, and going around 2.3km per run, follow ed by as many pushups and situps as I can do.
It has improved my stamina and mental energy too. So....what do you guys do?
totenkov August 24th, 2008, 01:37 AM

I go to the gym religiously ever other day, I completed a marathon one month ago and I generally live a very healthy life. I take some protein mixes and am just as muscular
as I am athletic.
There is a fine balance between having copious amounts of muscle and stamina and endurance. I have both because I have toned myself to have both. I take some martial arts
classes, however you could almost call it an underground ring that trains each other, a group of friends w ho know friends, and it goes from there.
I would generally avoid these faggy boxing clubs, claiming to teach you military fighting skills in 60 days or some title appropriate like that.
My only fault in my own personal health may be the odd bit of vaporized cannabis or blue lotus once in a blue moon :)
mike-hunt August 24th, 2008, 04:49 AM

When choosing an exercise program I have always found it easier to stick something I find enjoyable. Its a lot easier for me to kick around a foot ball with some mates during a
lunch break then getting up at 5;00am to work out at a gym.
I have found swimming to be a great all-round workout it's good for improving endurance and strength and being low impact it doesn't cause as much stress on the joints as
jogging or running.
colniko August 25th, 2008, 12:50 AM

Fitness has always been an important part of my life and one of my top priorities!
I will typically start my morning off with a couple of chocolate brownies to get that early sugar rush to get me going for the day. If I am feeling especially athletic I will sustain
that "sugar high" with a few energy drinks. Now I am good to go. Usually I w ill shadow box in my living room in front of the TV with Music On Demand blasting some
motivational Blues grass. If I wanna turn up the heat and bust out ninja skills I w ill drop in my Tae Bo video and get a good 4 minute burn going. Actually, I have been unable to
"train" for a few days, I was throw ing a roundhouse kick and must have caught my dogs squeaky toy just right cause I slipped and busted my ass. I think I pulled a hammy,
gonna give it a few more days to heal. In the meantime I have been sucking down plenty of Milk shakes and stuffed crust pizza to try to keep a healthy body and mind.
Lunch, another staple meal for the day. McD's or Sonic usually has a pretty good nutritional meal. McFlurries are key!
Ya gotta take this stuff serious. Health and fitness is a way of life.

Firstly, what to say here?
colniko - I think you have a little bit of a misunderstanding of what healthy is. One of my past jobs has been working for Mc. Donalds (amongst other things) and I assure you
that unless you eat only from the salad menu, it isn't exactly "healthy". Even the salad menu isn't that good....
The sugar rush you talk about isn't the best thing at all for your body if you are really fitness orientated. Try something with a little longer lasting energy. For instance, if you are
going for the kind of aerobic stuff (running, shadow boxing, anything that raises the heart rate for an extended period, say 20-30 or more) I would recommend having some
kind of fruit smoothie. Go for banana, strawberry, milk, mango, rock melon, etc. Blend the fuck out of it and have a glass of that before you go for your aerobic. If you are like
me, I prefer to just have some w ater, head out then eat when I get back.
If you are going for anaerobic (weights, pushups, etc) then I would recommend again starting dry (or perhaps one of those pre-work out protein drinks), slamming out your
work out, and then having a fair bit of protein through the day.
Try actually cooking your own food as opposed to people being paid minimum wage to do it for you. You would be surprised what you can whip up in 30 mins. with some
mince, pasta, garlic, ginger, pasta sauce and some tomatoes.
Pizza, McDonalds (McFlurries?!!!), Wendies, anything basically that is main stream is NOT the way to go to be healthy. The closest fast food to "healthy" is Subway, and even
then I'd prefer a home cooked meal to that any day.
Normally I go for a run every day and on every second day (Mon, Wed, Fri, Sat) I pump out a bit of a w ork out routine that I have made myself. Pushups, situps, kangaroo
jumps, tri/biceps w ork out. Try and get an all round deal going. Burpies are fucking awesome if you throw a push up in the middle.
I like music when I'm training, helps to get the blood pumping and some adrenaline flowing to push out those last muscle breakers.
Totenkov - Definitely agree regarding some places and their "military martial arts". If you want to learn to fight, learn in a place that doesn't hold back so much because of
insurance issues, etc.

Good call on the martial arts! It is some one of the best w ork outs to grapple with someone, even for just 5 minutes. In the military, we trained in a mix of boxing, ju jitsu, and
judo. The most tired I've ever been in my life is after a good day of hard fighting/grappling. It is also a good way to build up confidence and pain threshold.
Physical training is also key. Running along w ith balanced weight training and a good diet to achieve a medium is a good plan. I see a lot of the guys who use 'roids at the gym.
Sure they're big, but do they have the endurance required to hike up a mountain with 90 pounds of gear in a combat situation or run 5 miles? Hell no. Also consistently changing
work outs is a way to keep your body "guessing". By that I mean changing excercies on your certain muscle groups. Like for bench, don't just bench press with a straight bar.
Incorperate dumb bells, incline/decline, chest flies, ect.
I'm not going to go into detail here, but I try and work out every day. When I run, its usually aw are betw een 3-10 miles. I also put push ups, situps and abs afterw ards. I could
write a small book on the weight lifting. In sort, I alternate muscle groups through out the week. I'll take Sundays off usually. However, the one thing that is probably the most
important thing w hen it comes to physical training is CONSISTENCY! You need to disciple yourself and remain constant in your training, otherwise you w ill never see results.
Fitness is a lifestyle, not something that just happens. Remember it is also important to allow muscles to recover so they can come back stronger. This is why you alternate
muscle groups and take a 1 or 2 day break somew here during the week.
Also: Whats with the McFlurries and fast food? Are you kidding?
One endurance workout I recommend that I just tried today: Find a gradual sloping hill about 200 yards long. Flat ground w ill work ok, but it w on't hurt as much and won't be
as much fun. In a wheel barrow, place three 25 pound w eights. Now sprint down to the bottom of the hill (or 200 yards) with the barrow and sprint back up. This should hurt. If
not, run faster. After the first set, run over to a 60 pound dumb bell and lift it above your head. Walk briskly for 50 yards and put it down while keeping your arms slightly
flexed. Run back to the w heel barrow and remove a 25 pound weight and repeat until all weights are gone. On your last set, run without the wheel barrow . Do this as fast as
possible and repeat if needed (you probably won't be able to). This is a good thing to add to the end of a w eight lifting session. Also time yourself so you can see your progress.
This will kick your ass the first few times, but man does it feel good.
Kaydon August 26th, 2008, 08:25 PM

I doubt I live what anyone would consider a "healthy" lifestyle. I eat a ton of steak, pizza, pasta, etc. Drink soda instead of water unless I'm playing paintball or riding my bike,
then I drink w ater because the sugar will ruin your (at least for me anyway) day. How colniko can manage to exercise w ith that much sugar in his system is beyond me.
"Strength training" for me is lifting heavy stuff in my shop. I spend most of my off time at home, in my garage and I'm sure I don't need to explain how heavy shop equipment
can be.
I used to ride my bike.. a lot, I'd do anywhere from 25 to 50 miles a day, ate healthy too. Did the w hole creatine and noxplode deal, etc. I lost interest in road cycling, before
that I rode BMX but I suffered a serious ankle injury and couldn't take the hard landings for extended periods of time, so I only ride BMX on occasion. Started mountain biking a
while back.
That's about it for me. I down a 5 hr energy before class (machine tool,) too. I doubt they're all that good for ya, but ohwell.
colniko August 28th, 2008, 02:48 PM

I thought I was going to let a sleeping dog lie, but it seems that no one caught on to the fact that is was sarcastic humor. So apparently I wont be winning any awards for
comedy w riting.
Heheh, I dont really start my day off with brownies and energy drinks nor recoup my body with McFlurries and fast food. But I aint going to lie, I definitely do like brownies. And
Kaydon, right on w ith those 5 hour energy shots, those are pretty good but I am sure like you said they are no good. Hell, with 8333% of the recommended daily allow ance of
Vitamin B12, thats a bit much in my book.
No body thought shadow boxing and jumping around like a ninja listening to blue grass w as funny? Or catching myself on a dogs squeaky toy and busting my ass? Heheh, oh
well.
I haven't really scanned the FTP so I it may already be there, but there are a few books by a Ross Enamait that are really good and go along w ith the type of w orkout Rbick
was describing. Unfortunately I have only found some of his older works in electronic form. If this group doesnt have'm I will see if I can upload them.

Sarcasm is a little hard to transmit across the net. That and you would be surprised at the amount of sincere posts that come here that look like that.
Have a look at the Banned For Life section to see some of the "sincere" posts we get.

Colniko: I figured you were kidding, but I wasn't for sure. As Alexires said, tis hard to pick up on sarcasm accross the net. The reason I was uncertain w as due to the fact that
there really are people that do those things! Yes, I have seen people like Napoleon Dynamite that really exist. Scary isn't it? :eek:
Anyway, to go along with the work out I posted, I have another fun one that I tried on Tuesday: If you live in a city, find a good parking garage, try to find one with 5 stories or
more. Start with a 1-3 mile run to or around the garage. Make the run at about 80-90% of your ability. So not at full sprint, but close to your max speed for that distance. When
you get to the garage, stop at the base of the first ramp and do 25 push ups (fewer if need be to fit your ability level) and sprint up to the ramp. Now jog back down and do
another set of push ups. Now sprint to the top again and stop at the base of the 2nd ramp and do 30-50 crunches. When you're done with those, sprint up the 2nd ramp and
then jog all the w ay down to the bottom again. Continue this process until you have gotten to the top floor or you are too tired to continue. You can mix up the work outs. If
you find some hand rails, do some dips or whatever you can think of. When you're done, finish w ith a 1-2 mile cool dow n at about 50-60%.
When I tried this, my arms were too tired on the cool down run and I couldn't lift them that well. I think I kind of looked like a Penguin trying to run like that, but it was funny.
Great endurance work out too. It keeps your heart rate up and w orks your muscles. The next day w ork out should be a light run and some weight lifting. Don't over exert
yourself, since this can have detrimental effects.

Great stuff guys, already taken some of this on board.
festergrump August 30th, 2008, 07:50 AM

I thought it was some pretty gut-busting stuff, Colniko, but I doubted my ability to top the humor in the post so I left it w ell enough alone.
Your humor w as appreciated and not entirely lost! ;)
mrtnira September 1st, 2008, 12:10 AM

Colniko's w rite-up kept me laughing so hard, that it hurt to laugh any more. It sounds so much like my own exercise program, unfortunately.
Exercise can be relative to where someone is, and I'm not laughing at this. When I w as 25, I actually tried out for the Navy SEALs. I failed the swim test by 30 seconds.
Functionally, you need to train for the test, and where I was in the Navy did not have a pool. I used to run up 12 floors and not be out of breath.
Now, 25 years later, genetics being what they are, people age differently, and I am constrained. In some periods, if I walk up the block I might be doing okay. Yesterday, I
walked tw o miles, so the day was a good one.
My interest in traditional military skills training has never slowed, but my ability has slow ed and ebbed. Although, I can enjoy it more today than before, because I am not so full
of myself. Today, it is more the joy of shadow-boxing and being with men w ho enjoy martial arts than having to prove myself. The wrong motivation can kill the joy of any
training program.
Most of all, just find something to do and do it consistently. Atrophy will take its toll on any human body. I speak from experience, and would encourage you not to
procrastinate on any good work in life by saying, "Tomorrow." You only have today.
colniko September 1st, 2008, 06:00 AM

w w w.crossfit.com
Good site. Some good practical w orkouts. As the site says, a lot of real w orld operational units use these types of workouts because they are typically fast, dont require much or
any equipment and give you a full body workout along w ith a cardio workout as well.
I like looking at the archive of workouts and putting a few workouts of my ow n together that fit my needs/goals as well as what facilities and equip I have at that time, which
sometimes is nothing more than an open field.
RogSci forum is pretty slick. It seems you can find info on just about anything here and get several different perspectives on things. I wish I had known about this site from the
beginning.
Cobalt.45 September 1st, 2008, 04:42 PM

...as well as w hat facilities and equip I have at that time, which sometimes is nothing more than an open field. Instead of using the tractor, I took to pushing a 22" mow er to cut
my grass. The yard is big and has elevation changes to boot.
Doesn't sound like much, but it helps to hold my ground, condition-w ise. I've alw ays eaten properly except I ignore the bad/good "thing of the month". Also used to do 20 push-
ups every beer I drank. Maybe that's why I don't drink much any more! :confused:
The American College of Sports Medicine and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said in 1994, "The minimum exercise recommendation for health benefits is 30
minutes w orth of moderate-intensity exercise every day." This recommendation w as made to encourage couch potatoes:p to exercise.
Point is, EVERYONE should try to commit to that much, health permitting.
OT, but does anyone recall those TV commercials for eye exercises that could strengthen/restore eyesight? Did they actually do anything besides separate you from your $$$?
RogSci forum is pretty slick.Yea it is!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Inform ation Swap Alternatives
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This thread is for anyone who wants to discuss alternative methods of swapping com puter files for whatever reason. Maybe you
can't get high-speed because you live in the sticks, thus shafting you with 10MB per HOU R d o w n l o a d s ( l i k e m e ) . M a ybe you
want to be le s s t r a c e a b l e . M a y b e s o m eone else has a file and only wants to trade for it rather than upload. Maybe you don't
want torrent software on your com puter.
My personal lack of internet resources got me to thinking: Flash drives are cheap and easy to get these days. They are also
s m a ll enough to be m ailed for a paltry sum . Is there enough interest out there on RougueSci to start swapping flash drives via
m ail? Certainly this would let us sidestep a few uncom fortable neccessities associated with downloa ding.
The plan is pretty mu ch this: People who are in terested will sim ply let the public know here in this thread. T hey then contact
eachother via PM and discuss details. Once the details are agreed upon, both users will publicly post here that they agree to
trade with ea chother. Once each user receives the flash drive in the m ail, he will copy and paste all wanted files onto his
hardrive, then promptly return the flash drive to it's own er with the files intact, via insured mail.
I forsee a few possible drawbacks:
Viruses - Passing around files is like passing around girlfriends. Use protection!
Dish onesty - Posters m a y k e e p the flash drives or never send one out.
Address required - You really don't have an option on this one. You'll probably want to use a fake nam e w h e n s e n d i n g a n d
receiving.
Backup - For numerous reasons, you will need to back up every file you send out.
Lost in m ail - Insurance will be required. And, as I've just stated, backup.
A n y o n e e l s e s e e a n y d r a w b a c k s ? T h i s m ay save a lot of trouble. Or m aybe it's just a dumb idea.
P.S. This idea could just as well use CDs, external hard drives, o r anything else you're willing to risk losing permane ntly.

Doesn't the insurgents in Iraq use sm all sd cards to swap info and files around?
H e l l t h o s e t h i n g a r e t h e s i z e o f a p o s t a g e s t a m p, and cost som e t h i n g l i k e 1 0 e u r f o r a 2 g b o n e a n d o n e c a n g e t 1 2 8 t o 5 1 2 m b
ones for less than 4eur.
T h e y a r e s o l i d s t a t e a n d n o t s o e x p e n s i v e t o g e t l o s t . T he solid state is a real blessing when you come to think about
everything the card/hdd/dvd might be subjected to while in transit. One COULD send a normal 3,5 hdd to som e o n e t o c o p y
his/hers e-book collection on, but the bulk of the packing going to the shock proofing and all could be quite big.
I'd go with cheap usb sticks and sd/m m c mem ory cards. They are cheap and everywhere.
slarter August 30th, 2008, 12:31 PM

You can buy 2GB Micro SD cards (these are the ones that iHME refers to) for around $6 US and they are only 15 mm 11 mm
0.7 m m and could be sent in a regular letter. Fry's ha s 8 G B m e m ory sticks frequently on sale for around $20 US.
I have no problem exchanging info this way or by m ailing CD's or DVD's, as with these there is no need to return them a n d y o u
can label the m whatever you want (Yani's Greatest Hits :) ).
hereticalhermit August 30th, 2008, 02:23 PM

For those who don't h ave scanners, an alternative option might be to tak e high quality photos of b o o k s o r d o c u m ents. That
was my only alternative for years.

F W I W , US cities have "Genera l Delivery" throug h the USPS. This enables you to give out a n address that is basically useless
for tracing someone's exact whereabouts. The address is the post office itself, ex cept with a different tag (som e t i m e s ) o n t h e
zip. There is no cost other tha n p o s t a g e .
The major drawback on this one is that you are required to show ID:p to retrieve anything mailed to you so your nam e would
be known by the sender, unless you have an alternative ID.
A Sandisk Cruzer Micro 2GB UFD is 58 m m l o n g x 21.5 m m wide x 9 m m thick and weighs 10g. Cost is ~ $15. The 2GB Micro
SD cards mentioned earlier kicks ass over these!
I f u s i n g t h i s o r s i m i l a r , t h e e x t r a $ 0 . 2 0 p o s t a g e s h o u l d b e u s e d t o g e t t h e e n v e l o p e h a n d - c a n c e l l e d.;)
Intrinsic August 30th, 2008, 03:50 PM

Address required - You really don't have an option on this one. You'll probably want to use a fake nam e w h e n s e n d i n g a n d
receiving.
W ho really wants to g ive out their address? If you are using your real address, then anyone (fedgov or otherwise) can find you
no matter what name you use . P l a n o n u s i n g a f a k e a d d r e s s ? A r e y o u g o i n g t o s e t u p a m a i l b o x o n s o m e road, or are you
plan ning to rent a box at a post office, or m ailing center? R e n t i n g a b o x i s e v e n m ore difficult these days as you are require to
show two pieces of ID to get the box. Setting up a m ailbox you're possible facing federal m ail charges.
Lost in m ail - Insurance will be required.

W hy? Are you insuring the $6 flash drive or the info contained on it (you'd be a com plete dum bass if you didn't kee p a copy of
it)? Insurance would not be necessary at all.
M a y b e y o u c a n ' t g e t h i g h - s p e e d b e c a u se you live in the sticks, thus shafting you with 10MB per HO U R d o w n l o a d s ( l i k e m e).
Maybe you want to be less traceable. Maybe so m e o n e e l s e h a s a f i l e a n d o n l y w a nts to trade for it rather than upload. Mayb e
you don't want torrent software on your com puter.
Less traceable than the internet? Not a chance. W ho are you worried about tracing you, the fedgov, or som e o n e y o u p i s s e d o f f
on the net? If you're talking a bout the fedgov you're risking DNA, fingerprints, even metadata on the info you are trading.
H a v e y o u e v e r h e a r d o f E X I F d a t a o n y o u j p e g s ? H i d d e n d a t a o n a text file is how the BTK killer wa s caught, after nearly 30
years since his first m urder.
W hy do you want to TRADE? Are you profiting on someo ne else's work, or is it original content you developed? The
d i s s e m ination and sh aring of inform a t i o n i s a m a i n p o i n t o f R o g uesci, and the forum. If you really would prefer trading over
sharing, then this might not be the place for you.
Not having high speed can be a proble m, we have all been there once, but there are many ways around this problem . Leech
off a neighbor. Bring your laptop to a cafe/restaurant th at offers wifi (Starbucks, Panera, etc), man y rest areas offer wifi, or
even just go sit in som e hotel parking lot and leech off theirs. (Hospitals and libraries are great too!!) There m ust be a hote l,
hospital, or library within 30 m inutes of you!
At least uploading/do wnloadin g there is a m e a s u r e o f a n o n y n i m t y , a n d y o u c a n a lso increase your anonymity by using fake/
shell em ail a ddresses, proxies, tor etc.
In the end, all I have to say is just use the FTP. Share your information.

Intrinsic has a very good point. For the cost of a gallon or two of gas at most, 99% of us could drive to an open wifi connection
a n d d o w n l o a d m a t e r i a l a n o n y m ously. In m ost cases 70-80% of us could find such a connection within several miles of hom e.
Y o u m a k e t h e necessary arrangem ents with the uploader to put his content online so you can grab it as needed, when and
where you want.
The fedgov can track the connection you are downloading from, but they will not be able to swoop down and grab you. Unless
y o u a r e s t u p i d e n o u g h t o u s e t h e s a m e c o n n e c t i o n a t t h e s a m e time for days and days, you can n ot be implicated.
If you do swap drives, encrypting the contents is a simp le thing to do. Copy a PGP encrypted archive to the portable m e d i a a n d
send it off. Even if the fedgov does get it there is no law saying things can't be encrypted. In fact all things should be
encrypted as a matter of habit just to nullify the nanny state efforts of th e f e d g o v .
D N A i s e a s y e n o u g h t o g e t a r o u n d . B u y a b o x o f e n v e l o p e s f r o m the store, a generic ubiquitous brand, wear latex g loves when

o p e n i n g t h e b o x a n d h a n d l i n g a n y e n v e l o p e s . D o t h e s a m e thing for the drive, bought new from the store just like the
envelopes. For added precaution handle everything in a large plastic bag so you don't cou gh any spittle on it.
These efforts will not help you if they come to your hom e a n d f i n d t h e s a m e b r a n d of envelopes, gloves, plastic bag, paper,
your printer, etc. Also, if your intended recipient is a fed gov agent, encryption will not matter (i.e. you shared the decryption
key with him already). The point I want to make is to use these precautions to prevent them from placing you on the list in the
first place.
London_Dungeon S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2008, 08:06 PM

It's definately a very lim ited u se idea. I'd like to share m any .PDF files I downloaded from e B o o k e e (now sadly defunct) while
the getting was good , but do not have the ability to upload them due to m y sad-sack dial up. Many of these titles are not on
any torrent sites.
As far as identity goes, if I were a betting m a n I ' d s a y I ' m already being monitored by the Gov just for recreational habits such
a s b rowsing RogueSci. I'm not really scared that they have m y n a m e a n d a d d r e s s . T h e y a lready have it from t h e d o z e n o r s o
g u n p u r c h a s e s I ' v e m ade, so if they want to bring the ham m er down one day, well, I'm already on the radar.
I s h o u l d b e g e t t i n g a l a p t o p h ere within the next week, so m ayb e when I'm in town I can upload there. I don't stay in town
very often, though. Anyway, just thought I'd here what others ha d to say about th is. If anyone wan ts to trade, let me know.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > DJVU to PDF conve rter troubles
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View Full Version : DJVU to PDF converter troubles

I a m trying this new program called ST DU C onverter to convert a djvu file into a pdf. Unfortunately all I get is a broken pdf file
w i t h e m p t y p a g e s . I d o n ' t s u p p o s e a n y o n e e l s e h a s t r i e d this thing out a nd gotten it to work?
Official dem o: http://www.stdutility.com /download.htm l

Cracked full version: http://0day.car.net.pk/2008/07/stdu-converter-116.htm l
P.S. Don't even bother trying to turn this thread into an infomercial of why djvu is better than anything ever created. You have
been warned in advance.

Hm m m , I s e e m t o h a v e t h e s a m e problem. It is interesting to note that the ACTUAL size of the im a g e s s e e m to be tiny.
The Trial Version of their program works fine, so it must be the crack.
I just downloaded another crack, but as usual, turns out to be a virus.
phrankinsteyn August 29th, 2008, 01:26 AM

Mega,
I do not know if you have tried this way yet and it m ay not be th e way yo u want to go, but this is the way I do it. You can print
a DJVU file with Adobe Acrobat Professional. O pen djvu file with the DJVU viewer (I use Djvulibre DjView 4.2-freeware) then print
f i l e a s a p d f . Y o u m a y h a v e t o s e t A d o be as yo ur default printer. I have not had any problems using this m e t h o d .
I a m sure yo u can fin d a c o p y o f A d o b e p r o f e s s i o n a l s o m ewhere . :)

There's a copy on the FTP. It's within an Adobe Suite bundle, IIRC.
Y o u c o u l d p r o b a b l y g o a b o u t t h e s a m e thing as what Phrankinsteyn says by open ing up Adobe Acrobat Pro and clicking on
create PDF from file, then locating the DJVU file. It doesn't list .djvu in the comm on extensions this way, but if it will work by
assigning Acrobat as your default printer, seem s it should also work this way with less hassle. I dislike DJVU files, honestly, so
have none to test this theory out with.

Mega - Have you tried any other Docum ent Converter program s ?
How about Universal Docum ent Converter (http://www.print-driver.com /download/)
I'm sure you would find some "support" out there that would tell you how to "get" the full version.
megalomania August 29th, 2008, 08:57 AM

I wanted to preserve the OCR'd layer in the djvu document, otherwise I would just print it to pdf directly. I was hoping the ST DU
program wou ld let m e do this, but so far I can't get it to work at all. The trial version will not even run on m y computer, it just
crashes.
Alexires September 2 nd, 2008, 09:39 PM

I t s e e m s t h e JRAPublish is the way to go for Djvu-> PDF. Problem is that I can't find any kind of download for it at all.
You might just have to convert it to PDF using whatever program , t h e n O C R it afterwards.....
Sorry I can't be of any more h elp.
tapira1 S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2008, 06:25 PM

I would agree with Alexires; the best way (other than using the Jrapublish stuff) is to "print" the do cum e n t a s a p d f a n d t h e n
run the O CR (ABBY finereader?); finally, run the reduce file size in Acrobat to m ak a slightly sm aller file (they usually get too
big)
BTW : T h e s t d u s h o u l d l e t y o u s e e d j v u a n d p d f i n t h e s a m e a p p lication. DL link b elow.
http://rapidshare.com /files/71163165/STDU_Viewer.exe.html
You would also like to check this:

http://www.djvu-to-pd f-converter.com/purchase.htm
Finally, perhaps this could also be an alternative

http://rem b.org/2008/convert-djvu-ebooks-to-pdf.html
Also, just found the info below. Perhap s worth to give a trial.
Adlib Express Enterprise Serve r 4

W indows 2000 Server and Advanced Server with Service Pack 3 | ~144MB
All-in-one $1 6,500 Enterprise docum ent m a n a g e m e n t s o l u t i o n f o r h i g h v o l u m e s e r v e r b a s e d d o c u m e n t c o n v e r s i o n , O C R a n d

PDF editing. Adlib's ExpressC onversion server, ExpressR ecognition server and ExpressPublishing server were all built to provide
specific functionality within the d o c u m e n t m a n a g e m ent fram ework. However, for those com p a n i e s t h a t n e e d t h e c a p a b i l i t i e s o f
all three server based applications docum ent conversion, OCR , OMR , barcode recognition and PDF editing, you may want to
consider Adlib ExpressEnterprise Server.
In addition to contain ing the functionality of all the other three Adlib Express servers as one com p r e h e n s i v e d o c u m ent
m a n a g e m e n t a n d t r a n s f o r m ation application at one low price, it also contains additional functionality through the Adlib
ExpressConversion Extended Output Module, which would normally be an addition to ExpressConversion server.
Adlib ExpressEnterprise Server is a fully integrated and comprehensive document transformation suite of application s. If your
n e e d s g o b e y o n d s t a n d a r d d o cum ent conversion or docum ent publishing or OC R text reco gnition and require the ca pabilities of
all o f these features, then ExpressEnterprise Server should be considered. From the start, ExpressEnterprise server offers the
full range of docum ent tranformation offered by all our other servers com bined, including docum ent conversion, document
publishing and OCR text recognition. Combining all this functionality inside one com prehensive application gives you the ability
to convert docum ents from on e form t o a n o t h e r , s c a n i m a g e s f o r text, apply that text to the published docum e n t s a n d a p p l y
p u b l i s h i n g o p t i o n s t o c h a n g e t h e a p p e a r a n c e o f t h e r e s u l t i n g d o c u m ent.
Usually offered as a seperate functional m odule, ExpressEnterprise server also includes Extended Output capabilities that allow
users to convert PDF docum ents to RTF, convert Word to PDF, PDF to JPEG, PDF to TIFF, PDF to PNG, convert Djvu to PDF, MIME
to PDF and m any more. Adlib ExpressEnterprise Server provides an extensive range of features to support docum ent
conversion in a single application.
There is no need to connect different software compone nts together to m eet your requirements Adlib Exp ressEnterprise
Server does it all. Convert to PDF, W ord, text or other formats from over 300 supported file types. Highest quality rendering
and accuracy.
T r a n s f e r h y p e r l i n k s a n d b o o k m arks to rendered PDF: convert scanned im ages to text or P DF with a powerful server based OCR
engine; retrieve form data with Optical Mark R ecognition (O MR); barcode recognition; publishing docum ents through content
stam p i n g ; a p p e n d d o c u m e n t s w i t h T O C s , b o o k m a r k s a n d I n d e x e s ; a s s e m b l e d o c u m ents through merging and spitting.
Download fro m R a p i d s h a r e
http://rapidshare.com /files/99378616/adlib_R UZ.part1.rar

http://rapidshare.com /files/99380894/adlib_R UZ.part2.rar
Download fro m M e g a u p l o a d
http://www.m e g a u p l o a d . c o m / ? d = Y Y Y L I S D A
http://www.m e g a u p l o a d . c o m / ? d = Y K 3 Q G T 2 W
Hope there were useful
megalomania S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2008, 05:57 PM

Ack, m ost of these document apps just allow you to open and print the d ocum ent. You can then print it to whatever software
printer you have installed.
S o m etimes it is not a lways practical to re-OCR a d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e t h e s o u r c e i m a g e m a y h a v e b e e n d o w n s a m p l e d t o s a v e

space.
I d o n ' t s u p p o s e t h e r e i s a t o o l t o s e p a rate the text layer from t h e i m a g e layer of djvu documents?
I a m afraid the djvu form at is becoming increasing archaic year after yea r, there is no one left inte rested in m a k i n g t o o l s t o
work with it. Sooner or later Adobe will have compression just as good, and that is the only advantage djvu ever really had.
Even 5 years ago I would have jum ped on the chance to shrink down books to a tenth of the size, but it is not such a big deal
nowadays with torrents, high speed Internet, and big ass hard drives.
That just leaves converting the old into the new.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Energetic Materials For Energy
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View Full Version : Energetic Materials For Energy
LiquidThunder August 29th, 2008, 05:11 AM

Before I decided to post here, I read the entire "Perm Ban" thread, so I understand the policy and necessity for it. I started by doing a site search and a Google search for the
materials that I w as thinking of combining but got essentially nothing of value from Google and 0 hits on this site.
I read an article on the web about using Hydrogen Peroxide and a catalyst to produce high temperature steam (600+ degrees) very quickly (1-2 seconds) using some catalyst.
http://en.w ikipedia.org/w iki/Hydrogen_peroxide The catalysts are typically silver, platinum, or manganese dioxide. The article also goes on to say that Hydrogen Peroxide will
react violently in the presence of a "reducing agent".
I am not looking for a BANG out of this, what I am looking for is a controlable sustainable access to cheap high temp steam. So now let me tell you about my chosen "reducing
agent".
I did some research, and I think I have decided on Lithium Aliminum Hydride. I have found that it is incompatible with w ater and I have seen all the chemical reaction formulas
and thier resultant compounds. However, while I presume the reaction to be very similar with Hydrogen Peroxide, I am concerned that the extra Oxygen in the equation could
make all the difference.
Both of these materials on thier own are energetic to say the least, w ith high concentrations of H2O2 spontaneously exploding and w ith LAH being pyrophoric and being known
to react with atmospheric water vapor. I am looking for some suggested reading to determine what the resulting formulas w ould be for the reaction between these two as well
as any suggestions on the kind of container that w ould be necessary to contain this reaction and allow the pressure and steam to be released in a controlled fashion.
Thanks
And did I mention that I am not trying to make anything blow up? I hope I do not get banned on my first post.
Lewis August 29th, 2008, 08:41 PM

Why would you be banned? You post intelligently and in the correct place, are respectful, and actually read the rules.
In response to your question, I think a little more info on what you'd be using this energy for would be helpful. While concentrated H2O2 is useful for, say, high impulse rockets,
I somehow doubt you'd be able to effectively use it to heat your home.
Throw LAH into the mix, and, well... I have no idea w hat will ensue, but it probably won't be anything too practical.
Generally, the term "energetic material" is used to describe chemicals, or mixtures of them, w hich react very quickly, but not necessarily release more total energy than an
equivalent amount of conventional fuel in the long run. (they almost never do, in fact)
Very concentrated H2O2 w ill be hard to come by and expensive, LAH much more so. While the mixture you describe will undoubtedly give you high temperature something, I
doubt it will be anything close to sustainable.

There is actually a good bit of merit to this line of thinking, although I don't think the economics are up to it yet. I think the problem so far is the cost of manufacturing hydrogen
peroxide would be significant compared to other methods of generating heat. There are quite a few recent journal publications about making hydrogen peroxide with ever
greater efficiency, but they are all still quite experimental and small scale.
I think you are looking for a kind of controlled rocket thrust w ith this reaction. If you keep the components on a small enough scale, conventional steam power equipment
should be up to the task. Naturally I can't say for sure without experimental data; all the theory in the world will get us nowhere fast w ithout experiments.
I highly doubt you will find any data for free on the Internet. Not legally anyway... This particular area of chemistry is beyond my range of expertise and familiarity with current
publications, this smells of physical chemistry or chemical engineering. You w ill have to hit the journal stacks and reference books for this one. Try the ACS and Wiley journal
websites directly rather than Google or Google Scholar. RSC and Elsevir might have something too. You will not be able to actually get any journals unless you pay the bastards
their pound of flesh/cash, but you might be able to get a line on some references you can get for free. Some of us can also fulfill some journal requests if you ask.
LiquidThunder August 31st, 2008, 02:38 PM

In response to your question, I think a little more info on what you'd be using this energy for would be helpful. While concentrated H2O2 is useful for, say, high impulse rockets,
I somehow doubt you'd be able to effectively use it to heat your home.
Throw LAH into the mix, and, well... I have no idea w hat will ensue, but it probably won't be anything too practical.
Very concentrated H2O2 w ill be hard to come by and expensive, LAH much more so. While the mixture you describe will undoubtedly give you high temperature something, I
doubt it will be anything close to sustainable.
Let me explain... My intention here is to produce a steam generator that will produce steam on demand first and foremost to run 3 Tesla Turbines. I have a friend that had one
working on 400psi (low temp/pressure) steam and w as getting up to 50,000rpms on the turbine. Now that connected to a regular generator would have to be either geared
down or connected to a battery bank because that frequency is just too far away from 60Hz to be feasible directly. From my research, the H2O2 and LAH will produce temps in
excess of 600dC and from steam tables that translates to pressures in excess of 2800psi....assuming a straight linear progression, thats 350,000 rpms or a direct electrical
frequency of 5.8KHz so again... not directly usable. BUT w hat I am hoping is that I can adjust the temps and pressures with using lower concentrations of H2O2 and smaller
amounts of LAH.
Now I chose to use 3 turbines, so I could get 3 phase power and run the entire home on 230V and have 200A service result.
Additionally... I have been doing a lot of research into the new Electric cars w ith their fuel cells and very heavy battery banks and I think that a small steam on demand system
could provide sufficient electrical power to run the car well beyond the distances achieved with the heavy fuel cells. So that is w hat I am working towards.
megalomania August 31st, 2008, 10:55 PM

Ah ha, any system that requires portable or remote power would be the most likely to benefit from a fuel source like hydrogen peroxide. You w ould likely find the most useful
information concerning hydrogen peroxide by reading up on rocket propellant. The chemical reactions, materials, and some equipment will be the same, you just require the
reaction to be a little slower. The rocket publications should have the most pertinent data for your needs. NASA has many publications freely available, other than that I don't
really keep track of rocketry stuff.
You w ould be well advised to consider producing your own LAH and recycling the waste product produced after your reaction since it seems you may be needing large quantities.
I seem to remember so info from the Hive, but you should get the real data from patents and chemical engineering texts. Check out the latest Kirk Othmer Encyclopedia for the
modern references on LAH manufacture. Actually, the Kirk Othmer might have some useful data on your reaction as well.
Kirk Other can be dow nloaded from the FTP, quite likely from Gigapedia, and there may be a few torrents floating around w ith it as well.
LiquidThunder September 1st, 2008, 12:50 PM

Ah ha, any system that requires portable or remote power would be the most likely to benefit from a fuel source like hydrogen peroxide. You w ould likely find the most useful
information concerning hydrogen peroxide by reading up on rocket propellant. The chemical reactions, materials, and some equipment will be the same, you just require the
reaction to be a little slower. The rocket publications should have the most pertinent data for your needs. NASA has many publications freely available, other than that I don't
really keep track of rocketry stuff.
Mega:
Funny that you should mention rocketry. I have been struggling w ith the design for bringing the two key components together. Aside from the obvious need for containter to
withstand the heat and pressure that is sure to ensue. I have considered a rotating shaft with something resembling a keyw ay that would w ork something like the rotating
window s at some fast food places where it is sealed up to the very edge of the window (shaft) and as the keyway rotates up to the LAH feed hopper, the keyw ay measures out
and exact amount to be dispensed into they Hydrogen Peroxide / Water mixture. This is simple and consistent for measurments... the downside of course is that the keyway
once empty of the LAH would likely pick up some steam or water vapor or w ater droplets and then introduce it to the LAH hopper above with some potentially VERY BAD results.
So then it hit me that I am dealing with essentially rocket fuel (H2O2) and some solid reactant and I remembered some of my research a w hile back on project Promethius at
MIT or one of the other high end engineering schools that were doing solid fuel rocket boosters. Essentially what they w ere doing was to create a narrow tunnel through the
center of their solid fuel material that then opened into an expansion or combustion chamber, and then they would spray the Hydrogen Peroxide through a catalyst down the
center and it w ould vaporize the solid fuel and then w ith some substantial force ignite and burn in the combustion chamber. If I follow this example and create a tube with the
LAH... I could provide either straight steam (250 - 300dF) under some pressure down the center of the LAH... I w ould get a boundry layer reaction that could be controled via
the pressure and quantity of steam available for the reaction.
Then have the expansion chamber be the opening to my steam turbine array. I think that I can control the pressure and heat by controling the introduction of steam. Also...
after the reaction process begins, the heat generated can then be used to create the steam that is needed for the reaction. So of course some battery power will be required to
create the initial steam and pressure, but would then be switched off and batteries recharged after the reaction is started.
Plus, there are a number of very useful byroducts of this reaction that with a small amount of secondary process can be used or sold.
I think that the entire apparatus can be fairly small, to produce enough electricity to power an electric car and the weight would be less than 1/4 of what the current battery
banks weigh. And using this method, the LAH can be purchased in catriges like pool filters and w ould completely safe for general public use.
************************
Stop self signing posts! Use the signature feature in the UserCP
FU TI September 1st, 2008, 04:53 PM

LAH is overkill IMHO. I remember there were an old rocket design that used H2O2 and jet fuel on silver catalyst. That should be good enough. H2O2 while decomposing on silver
catalyst generates water and oxygen at 600 degrees Celsius. That is enough to ignite jet fuel injected in combustion chamber. That should be good enough for terrestrial
applications. Use LAH only if you develop something for space applications, there its energy per mass outweigh almost anything and it should pay-off to put yourself to such
troubles developing so many complex systems and mechanics.
LiquidThunder September 2nd, 2008, 03:10 AM

LAH is overkill IMHO. I remember there were an old rocket design that used H2O2 and jet fuel on silver catalyst. That should be good enough. H2O2 while decomposing on silver
catalyst generates water and oxygen at 600 degrees Celsius.
I was originally looking at that design.... the Germans used it, the British have used it, just about everyone has used it in thier initial rocket programs back in the 40's, 50's and
60's. None of my research to date made it clear wether the silver catalyst was used up or not. Burning silver is not very economical, so that is w hy I was looking for another
relatively inexpensive catalyst or one that was cheap enough that it could be purchased and replaced (like inkjet cartridge or a pool filter). The reality of LAH and Hydrogen
Peroxide 50% concentration is, the general public (dumb rednecks and other morons) would not have the skill or experience to be handling either one of the primary reactants.
Nor would they be likely to seperate out the resulting chemical compounds for recycling or use in other applications.
IF the silver is not used up and can w ithstand the 600 degrees Celcius temperature, then I could push 50% Hydrogen Peroxide through the catalyst and get my steam, and
pressure... while making nice clean Oxygen. Typical steam systems use stages of expansion before either reheating the steam or reintroducing it to the 3rd stage expander. In
my case, I can pass it through all three Tesla Turbines then into a larger expansion chamber where the low pressure and lower temperature steam can be piped back to the
reaction chamber w here it will be reheated with the H2O2 + Catalyst reaction...adding to the steam volume. AND just forget about the LAH.
However, I still think that there are some possibilities since I should be able to produce my own LAH from the recycled components and some of the byproducts are also used to
make Hydrogen Peroxide... So I could be using and making my own fuels with little overhead after the initial start.
That is enough to ignite jet fuel injected in combustion chamber. That should be good enough for terrestrial applications. Use LAH only if you develop something for space
applications, there its energy per mass outweigh almost anything and it should pay-off to put yourself to such troubles developing so many complex systems and mechanics.
Not actually developing a rocket booster, so no terrestrial or space application for this per se.
************************
Stop self signing
FU TI September 4th, 2008, 05:45 PM

H2O2 generates H2O and oxygen. LAH and w ater makes H2 among the other stuff. All that at 600 (or more) degrees Celsius...you like to live dangerous :-), but then again
everyone at this forum does.
Who cares about steam? The ingredients you mix will most likely combust, but you will have million problems w ith making a good mixing chamber. Good luck anyw ay.
LiquidThunder September 9th, 2008, 06:23 PM

Who cares about steam? The ingredients you mix will most likely combust, but you will have million problems w ith making a good mixing chamber. Good luck anyw ay.
Above quoted edited for brevity and relevance.
FUTI:
I think I have a good solution for the component interaction derived from the design of solid rocket boosters. I am thinking that perhaps a slower or less reactive material w ill be
needed, otherwise... too much pressure and reaction will be too fast.
Jacks Complete September 17th, 2008, 06:16 PM

The catalyst doesn't get used up - otherw ise it wouldn't be a catalyst!
The silver simply causes the peroxide to decompose rapidly, generating lots of heat alongside the oxygen and hydrogen dioxide (water/steam) so unless you get to very high
temps the silver will be fine.
You'll have issues keeping the H2O2 coming out the nozzle fast enough and over the catalyst, I think, but keep us posted!
James September 18th, 2008, 05:11 PM

I think actually your best bet w ould be a fossil fuel mixed w/ air driving an internal combustion engine. Boring, but effective. I saw an article ('Prospectus' in the July 1996
Analog) in containing the specific impulses of several mixtures. Hydrogen peroxide didn't fare too well.
Hirudinea September 24th, 2008, 09:27 PM

Although I know nothing about the chemistry I can tell you that in WWII that Japanese "Long Lance" torpedo used H2O2 to produce steam to propell itself, you can research that
if you want. You can also look up Submarine Air Independent Propulsion systems, heres a quote I found after a 5 second google search...
In the early 1930s, however, a brilliant German engineer, Dr. Helmuth Walter (ca. 1900-1980) of Kiel's Germaniawerft, proposed a radical new submarine propulsion plant based
on the use of high-purity hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) as an oxidant. In Walter's system, hydrogen peroxide from an onboard supply was decomposed using a permanganate
catalyst to yield high temperature steam and free oxygen.
If you look up stuff in that vein you might find what you need, but just remember all H2O2 propulsion systems w ere abandoned because they w ere as dangerous as hell, oh
yea, the Messerschmit ME-101 rocket plane used H2O2 as a oxidizer and the refueling crews had to wear special suits because the H2O2 would eat through flesh to the bone in
seconds, but I guess you already knew that, x-rays are an easier way to see your bones.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Kid hits molotov cocktail with a baseball bat
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View Full Version : Kid hits molotov cocktail with a baseball bat

I laughed for 5minutes. http://ww w.break.com/index/molotov-cocktail-baseball.html
Also I have found a w ay to combat bad grammar, k3ls and idiots on the internet. Its called the Stupid Filter.
http://stupidfilter.org/main/
Check it out.
Hinckleyforpresident August 30th, 2008, 03:19 PM

"Oh shit, you're on fire!" HA!
That's approaching Darwin Award level kewldom/stupidity.
Cobalt.45 September 11th, 2008, 06:45 PM

The ONLY thing this coupla ass-hats did right(?) was to not use gasoline for fuel. Otherwise, this is a sure sign God w atches out for fools and drunks.:p
http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ6kojGEMME&NR=1
Alexires September 12th, 2008, 01:35 AM

Link hopping from there, some of those home made flame throwers (http://w ww.youtube.com/w atch?v=QNu0sR89_BM&feature=related) are pretty cool. Also a link to some
protesters using a home made flame throw er against police (http://www .youtube.com/watch?v= kMi7Jkay0fY&feature=related) seems interesting and food for thought.

An improvised flame thrower can be made from a Home Depot-sourced sand-blaster.
The thing uses a fair amount of air as-is, but w/a constricted orifice at the point w here the sand w ould ordinarily be ejected (the ceramic "pills" are replaceable) would result in a
less air-hungry appliance.
One could be powered by a CO2 paint-ball cartridge or an over-the shoulder freon canister (along w/the fuel container a la WWII-era 'throwers), hell even a propane tank!:eek:
It w ould be interesting to see the results w /some 325 mesh Al added to the fuel. Likely not a whole lot more lethal, but visually would be quite a show. Provided one w as
wearing dark goggles, just the blinding effect to the enemy would be useful.:cool:
An improvised flame thrower can be made from a garden sprayer as well, but I'm sure this has been done to death already.
One modification that will increase the effectiveness of a sprayer, would be to perforate the suction tube w/small holes so that air would be drawn into the fuel before being
released from the nozzle and ignited.
Distance w ould be limited, as well as quantity of fuel released but in close-quarters, it could be effective.
Alexires September 12th, 2008, 10:26 PM

One modification that will increase the effectiveness of a sprayer, would be to perforate the suction tube w/small holes so that air would be drawn into the fuel before being
released from the nozzle and ignited.
Ooooohh *wince*. That could get a little exciting if you had back burn. Also, it might result in less of a directed "beam" of flame, and more like a fireball at the end of a stick.
Personally, I would rather have the fuel ignited at the end of the tube.
I like the idea of the propane tank. Anyone that has had a tank and a campfire has probably flipped the tank over and sprayed liquid propane at the fire. Interesting to say the
least. If you could get a propane tank that was "thin" like a fire extinguisher as opposed to a fat boy like your regular BBQ ones, then I think you might have a plan.
Otherw ise, I have seen some flamethrow ers made with some thick PVC piping and a kind of pressure source (possibly a battery pack and a pump or just charging a used fire
extinguisher w ith air or nitrogen.)
Throw ing the Al in is a good idea as w ell. Add some kind of syrup to make it all nice and sticky, and you have a pretty effective device.
Riot Police: "Cease your protest and come along quietly for processing"
*flame thrower*
Protestor: "Your face is on fire! Now w hat, Bitch?"
Cobalt.45 September 13th, 2008, 12:18 AM

Ooooohh *wince*. That could get a little exciting if you had back burn. Also, it might result in less of a directed "beam" of flame, and more like a fireball at the end of a stick.
Personally, I would rather have the fuel ignited at the end of the tube.My explanation was too vague, sorry. The perforations w ould be into the tube inside of the pressure tank,
i.e. suction tube, as opposed to discharge tube. An air/fuel emulsion w ould then be expelled (as per usual sprayer function) at the tip.
iHME September 13th, 2008, 03:45 PM

An improvised flame thrower can be made from a garden sprayer as well, but I'm sure this has been done to death already.
Oh yes it is. Some guy in Germany pulled a rampage with one filled with gasoline.
He hit a elementary school, killed a fair bunch of small children and one teacher.
There was hirosima style black & w hite silhouettes on the walls in the hit class room.
I would not be surprised if I originally was linked from here to it. :p

Just for S&G I modified an old sprayer w/holes in the aspirator tube as mentioned above.
The results were, w ell, less than spectacular. The range w as down by ~50%. But the size of the resulting fireball was increased about the same amount. And it did feel
something "like a fireball at the end of a stick"!:eek:
Best results were achieved (when using modified suction pipe) w /no tip on the w and.
Probably the biggest problem w/this modification is the short "run-time". The pressure gets used up quickly.
Alexires has a good point w hen he mentions flashback; while I didn't have a problem it would be wise to not try any of this because of just such a problem. You've been
cautioned...;)

Otherw ise there are those old style "weed killer" packs that people wear on their backs. The stick and nozzle are made of copper, so that is a lot better for any kind of
flammable liquid than plastic.
A couple of modifications (reinforcing/replacing the pressure vessel) and then rig up a compressed CO2 bottle for pressure. Stick a pressure regulator (maybe off a LPG setup) to
keep pressure low and you are ready to start cooking with gas....or petrol as the case might be.
Vitalis September 15th, 2008, 02:38 AM

I don't know how much of an issue blow-back would be w ith a supersoaker, but it's still a little reckless looking for my tastes.
Let these kids go out in a field somew here and play w ith fire though, it will do us all a favor and keep pollution from the gene pool.
Perhaps they could go out in the w oods and make pipe bombs with Potassium Chlorate, Aluminium pow der and some extra Sulphur just to make sure it's k3w7.
Better yet, make them at home w ith some AP and run out into the woods carrying them.

Honestly, I think the danger of flashback w ould be pretty low. The petrol has nothing to burn with. It needs oxygen and in a supersoaker set up, the pressure comes from the
air in the tank that you pump in. The only real danger would be having a tank rupture from it being dissolved, or having some flashback when you run out of juice.
If you used something inert like CO2 or N2, then there w ould be no danger from the flashback. If you used a cylinder resistant/immune to your selected solvent then you are
ready to start torching away.
Seriously, who DOESN'T want to pretend they are a Balrog and flail around a firey whip in the form of hot supersoaked DEATH. Then again, maybe I'm just too attached to
whips?:rolleyes:

One thing's likely- the phenomena of flashback only has to happen once to be the final thing ever experienced before becoming a scarred-for-life (or w orse) statistic.
In the case of oxygen/acetylene torches, a device is used to suppress flashback. A supersoaker or a weed sprayer isn't so equipped and relies the user to release their finger
from the valve to prevent back-flow of liquid (and subsequently, atmospheric O2) into the reservoir.
Flashback would happen w hen the tank had returned to atmospheric pressure. Then, gravity along with the operator holding the valve open (as in to get the last shot from the
device, or a failure of the valve) w ould be all that's needed to cause a back-flow of fuel into the tank follow ed by a wisp of flame feeding on the air being drawn along w/the
fuel.
The resulting flashback might be anything from nothing to a mild *pop* to a catastrophic explosion depending on the air/fuel ratio, etc. within the tank.
Not likely to happen, but WELL within the realm of possibility, IMHO. Just be very careful, is all.:)

Might be worth some experimentation. My leave is coming up soon, so I'll get back on the the EtOH bike engine and I might pick up a supersoaker and sacrifice it to the cause.
This really is an interesting project in my opinion. Flame throwers can be small, compact, devastating and a good diversionary tactic as w ell (nothing like a face full of fire to
distract you).
Just as a teaser, I saw this a long time ago, but I thought you guys might appreciate it. From our brothers at SA.com (http://forums.somethingawful.com/show thread.php?
threadid= 1107178).

That is an impressive build. I'm gonna search to see if any plans w ere ever show n w hen I get some time.
But I really don't get the way the thing w as *raved* about-:confused:
Some responses to the PVC flame thrower:

Ho-lee gently caress.
Holy poo poo!
Holy goddamn poo poo, that's aw esome!
That thing is loving awesome.
loving AWESOME.
Holy gently caress I want one.
uh holy poo poo
Just a very curious way to applaud the w ork, is all. Maybe it's a softw are thing. But in the Official Rules, the admin uses "fuck" and "shit" and language isn't specifically
mentioned so I'm not sure what the deal is, but it's queer, THAT'S for sure!
Also, I couldn't help but notice they charge $10 for membership over there.:(
So folks here should be damn grateful that Mega still offers up this place for $0.00.
One more example of how this forum rules all others.:D

By brothers, I meant those who bash the blatantly stupid mercilessly. I'm not vouching for their over all intelligence.
Also, I don't know about that $10 thing, but I do know that you can pay money to change other peoples names and user groups. Quite a funny way to make money, but hell it
works.
I am eternally grateful for RS.org and all the w ork that Mega has done to keep this site free.
overcookedpizza September 18th, 2008, 09:28 PM

The only problem with home flame throwers is that, real ones have a range of like 200 feet, while home made ones will go MAYBE 40. For instance, a fire extinguisher will not
go very far.
Earlier research on this forum lead me to believe that the gelled fuel of the real flame thowers allows for this kind of range, as even with high PSI, a non-jelled liquid (with
viscosity like w ater), will not go very far.

Earlier research on this forum lead me to believe that the gelled fuel of the real flame throwers allow s for this kind of range, as even with high PSI, a non-jelled liquid (with
viscosity like w ater), will not go very far.If this is the case, is it the physical consistency or the specific gravity that w ould let a jelled-fuel thrower shoot further than a liquid
gasoline one? The thick-consistency fuel behaves more like a single mass, where gasoline breaks apart soon after leaving the nozzle, so the actual SG w ouldn't be as important
as keeping the stream together.
If its a SG thing, that would mean a saltw ater supersoaker could shoot further than a freshwater one, with both optimized for pressure and orifice diameter. And "jelled
saltwater" might shoot further yet.
Likely both consistency and SG contribute- at least intuitively, this seems correct.
festergrump September 19th, 2008, 01:53 PM

So far as flamethrows go in general, I like the idea of putting out the "pilot light" and soaking the enemy with just the liquid napalm (for a "WTF?" effect). A flare gun
underneath lights the "match" so to speak, w hen they just get over the "WTF?" thought process... (oh shit! THAT! :eek:).
I've w atched FAR too much TV in my day, sorry, and my mind is corrupted by it sometimes (like when I think scenarios are slightly rediculous). I don't care much for
flamethrow ers anyway, to be honest. Too much chance for danger to the user, or friendlies even.
Just my opinion, of course.

From a video I have seen, Cobalt, the range comes from raining the burning gel dow n. The actual jet of flame burns out about at most half way, but it is the burning gel that is
interesting (see here (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GgYpRpiZmf0&feature=related))
I would think that due to the surface area as it comes out of the nozzle (scattering of the fuel), you would w ant to use something that is no overly volatile, like a light fuel oil
(perhaps kerosene). Traditionally, petrol has been used w ith some kind of fuel additive to make it thicker.
Down side is the size and the weight. 25kg loaded for some and they are VERY big (about the size of a well laden ALICE pack).
A good thing about it is it doesn't need to shoot fuel. Why not water w ith CN in it? Or Chloropicrin?
Otherw ise, just a plain water jet can be used to counteract the effect of CS (which is rapidly hydrolysed in the presence of water with a half life of 15 minutes) or an alkali
solution can be used (around pH 9) to reduce that half life to 1 minute (from Wikipedia).
sbovisjb1 September 21st, 2008, 12:42 AM

Might be worth some experimentation. My leave is coming up soon, so I'll get back on the the EtOH bike engine and I might pick up a supersoaker and sacrifice it to the cause.
This really is an interesting project in my opinion. Flame throwers can be small, compact, devastating and a good diversionary tactic as w ell (nothing like a face full of fire to
distract you).
Just as a teaser, I saw this a long time ago, but I thought you guys might appreciate it. From our brothers at SA.com (http://forums.somethingawful.com/show thread.php?
threadid= 1107178).
Brothers... SA!!! Thats k3wl central right there! And a close second comes 4chan!
Alexires September 21st, 2008, 11:05 PM

*laugh* While here isn't perhaps the place to discuss the merits of 4chan and SA, I enjoy reading both (or the classics from them both). Might I also add that the user from SA
had actually made something which gives him credit in my books.
Where as RS.org is a bastion of light in the darkness of ignorance and k3w ldom, SA and other sites such as it are more like looking for a diamond in the rough. It w ould do to
remember that not everyone that frequents those sites are a k3w l, w hile not every member of RS is immune from the disease of stupidity.
Jacks Complete October 4th, 2008, 08:40 AM

Ah yes, the legendary SA flamethrower. It's a nice idea. Of course, his use of alcohol based fuel means that unless he uses a gelled fuel he won't get much range, and nor will
he get lasting burn.
Of course, it w as three years ago I last looked at that thread, and back then, I'd not come across the gelled hand cleaners that are some vast percentage of alcohol... However,
I'm pretty sure they aren't actually flammable. If anyone has some, try adding a match to some and see what happens - all the ingredients are flammable. If it does burn, then
result. Load your freshly scented napalm and off you go, with nothing more than a supersoaker and a little flamer to light it.
If it doesn't burn, try adding some more alcohol to it, until it does burn.
(I'd also suggest running a pressure test on the supersoaker with this jelled stuff in it before carrying one around with you. But you know that already.)
Post results. With pictures. SA got over a million hits to that thread. We might want to lock them out to avoid bringing down the server!
Cobalt.45 October 4th, 2008, 09:29 PM

Zep has a type of gelled hand sanitizer that's 60% ethanol. Jailbirds use it for hooch.:p
Neglected to mention that Phrankinsteyn w as the OP of Zep as hooch in another thread.
phrankinsteyn October 4th, 2008, 10:40 PM

If anyone is interested on how they make it (the hooch from the zeb gel sanitizer) and a few other ideas they have come up w ith (the inmates :)) see my thread in the :Rogue
Science Virtual Library- Prison contraband.
NameWithheld October 10th, 2008, 08:04 AM

Any other wild land firefighters here?
We've got these 5 gallon backpacks (think an oversize Camelbak) with a rubber hose connected to a 1-1/2 foot or so trombone style w and (make of some kinda brass).
They're called Fedco's (the original brand), piss pumps, bladder bags... whatever.
Anyways, we've had quite a bit of fun while doing backburns filling those things w ith driptorch fuel (a mix of gas and diesel) and running around flaming everything ^_^
Course, you can't let the backpack catch on fire, its just a plastic bag... I imagine if it burst on you and caught fire it would be pretty much a sure death...
iHME October 27th, 2008, 08:26 AM

A couple of Russian 14-year-olds play with a captive bolt pistol loaded w ith mace rounds :)
http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=2kgZYMmv3SU&feature=related
Lewis October 27th, 2008, 06:08 PM

Oh, those Ruskies with their crazy shenanigans. :p
"I maced my little brother in the face."
"Don't just stand there, give him some Vodka!"

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > You-Tube K3wl's fingertips blown off by "blasting cap"
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View Full Version : You-Tube K3wl's fingertips blown off by "blasting cap"
Positron August 30th, 2008, 03:08 AM

Jesus H. Christ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro889KPZX6g
Notice the comments posted by the video's author:
"i tryed to open it and then i blew in my hand"
He also says " nn tndhatt frsvaret/militren anvnder."
I recognize the word "military", so I assume the guy was hacking apart a professionally-made detonator to get at the k3wl powder inside.
Sad. I'm glad he still has use of his hands. I wonder about his ears.
By the looks of his other videos, the accident makes perfect sense. He's that type you know? The type of guy who you just know is gonna screw on a steel end-cap with some
active material in the threads...
Analyzing his fuck-up, I'd say he was holding the cap tightly within his left fingers (that's obvious), and digging the thing apart with some kind of tool in his right hand. I say
that because in addition to his blown-off left-hand fingertips, it looks like his right thumb is half-gone too...
Perhaps his right hand was fisted up wrapped around the tool (screwdriver or something equally as stupid), which protected his other fingers.
His days are numbered.
Mr Science August 30th, 2008, 05:02 AM

Thank God he is alright, could have ended much worse for him.
I think such videos are overall a good thing to have on youtube, showing people's injuries resulting from stupidity. We all know of the countless videos of idiots dangerously
using explosives, destroying property, etc, and the average kewl sees only such videos (without showing any of consequence), they probably assume there is nothing to worry
about. Once they see the dangers, hopefully such acts of stupidity will decrease. Now I'm not saying people should not use or handle these things; people should simply be
aware of the potential consequences of their actions, thats all.
ChippedHammer September 13th, 2008, 11:50 AM

Pulling apart a commercial blasting cap is one of the most counter productive things you could do, getting your hands on them is like finding gold.
joffe September 14th, 2008, 10:46 AM

I remember one oaf I went through basic training with (how he was accepted into the military is beyond me - I guess they were in desperate need of men), during my first
stint in the military. He was trying to remove sawdust from a non-electric blasting cap and he did this by knocking the open end of the cap against a rock. He blew of the first
joints of his thumb and first two fingers. So how this Swedish guy held the blasting cap is in my opinion pretty much open to speculations.
Kaydon September 14th, 2008, 01:12 PM

Wait, what? He was KNOCKING the cap against a ROCK? How could anyone be that stupid. Reminds me of that idiot a few years ago that bit down on a cap and it blew his
teeth out.
joffe September 14th, 2008, 03:04 PM

Yup. A complete moron but strong as an ox and with an incredible endurance. But how that imbecile managed to complete basic training is way beyond me.
The drill for sawdust-covered blasting caps was as follows:
Look into the blasting cap, if there is sawdust inside, grab the blasting cap with three fingers, opening pointing downwards. Knock your wrist gently against your forearm. If
there are still sawdust in the blasting cap, then the blasting cap is probably wet and should not be used. If you don't mind risking a dud, you could let it dry in room
temperature and use it later. Knocking the blasting cap against a hard surface was not according to the manual.
A French NCO I knew, who had worked in Africa in the 60's and 70's told me how the local rubbish passing off as soldiers thought is was the manly thing to do to crimp the cap
on the fuse with their teeth. If they bit over too much, they not only lost a few teeth but also their lives. He showed us a picture he had enlarged showing the effects of such
manly action. It was hard to see clearly what had happened, but much of the lower jaw was gone and several teeth in the upper jaw had been blown away and bone
fragments had penetrated his brain, killing him instantly. Anyway, he was no longer a ladies magnet if he had fancied himself as one.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Ordering from overseas...
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View Full Version : Ordering from overseas...

Just wondering if anyone from outside the US has ordered naughty things such as stun guns and pepper spray (or other illegal
goods) to thier country?
Some of these US companies claim to ship discreetly, but I'm wondering what difference it makes really.
If you have tried, succesfully or not, please post. Let me know of the method you used, and maybe who from. By method I
mean; did you get the item sent to a vacant house, PO box under false ID etc, and if you got busted, what happened? Any
tips/ideas are also welcome.
Theres some great stuff for sale online, shame it's illegal. I will not be breaking any of my countries laws, I'm just curious as
to the effectiveness of customs.
Cheers.
Emil August 30th, 2008, 07:27 AM

Yeh I would also like to hear of some stories or experiences about this kind of thing. I can't really see how a company can say
that they can deliver discreetly. At the end of the day they are required to declare the exact contents of the package they are
sending. So unless they are a bit of a crooked company who kind of know they are being a bit naughty, they will most
probably will state exactly what is in the package be it chocolate or explosives. You will most likely find some where on their
shops site that it states it "accepts no responsibility for misuse of goods, or for the legallity of the product in other countries."
In other words when the customs guys open it up and finds out something illeagal, they won't be bothered in bugging the
company who sent it, they are coming to visit the convinient address which has kindly been left on the package :D.
I would really like to know a bit more about how the customs works. I know they differ slighty from country to country but the
overall operations would interest me greatly. The shear amount of packages and parcels that are sent through the world every
day makes my mind wonder how they cope with such a high volume. Is every package checked via means of x-ray or some
other device?? Does the origin and character of the business who sent the item have some part to play? (In other words they
aren't going to be checking parcels sent from music stores, but they may be very interested in ones sent from chemical supply
companies).
We know they have the legal right to open your package if they see it in their interest. Why would they want to open a
package though, surely their technologies allow them to basically see the inside out of a package without removing it's outter
shell. Or maybe they only pass the packages through an x-ray machine which would obviously only show up certain materials,
thus needed futher investigation?
Like Red beret said, surely if you were to order something illeagal the best idea would be to get it delivered to a vacant
address using a false ID, or some address which your name is not really directly involved with.

First of all, there's a big difference between shipping discreetly and blatantly disobeying a country's import laws.
Shipping discreetly 99.9% of the time means shipping in a plain package with a shipping label that really doesn't give much
info about their company (ie: "Foxx Enterprises, Inc" as opposed to "Foxx Pepperspray Supply Co.". Just an example).
Most American companies would rather cut out an entire countries sales posibilities rather than unknowingly break a countries
laws which they may be held liable for. They just don't want to take the chance nor do they want to pay someone just to
research and keep up with other countries' laws and regulations just to make a sale. PLUS, they'd have to transfer the currency
from yours to theirs and all that bother on top of it.
Best bet is to make friends with someone from the country whose wares you'd like to buy, talk them into making the straw
purchase for you, having them prove the shipping of the item by an insurance receipt photocopy in an email, then being able
to humbly eat the entire cost if/when your item get confiscated by customs. It's just the risk one must take for such matters.
Of course, you'd never claim the insurance or you'd be busted. It'd be for proof of shipment only, and who doesn't insure their
packages for so cheap a cost anymore?
It probably happens all the time, but figure alot of it never makes it to it's destination. Careful packaging would be the key
here...

I guess it's kind of like a lucky dip. Find a vacant house (impossible where I am) and keep trying until the item(s) get
through.
Or as festergump said, make friends with someone in the country of interest and enlist their help. That too is hard though,
due to issues of trust etc, and if you havent actually been to the country and met the person, this method is probably best
avoided.
Having said that, they could easily disguise, for example, the electrical circuitry of a stun gun with regular electrical circuit
boards and such.
Same with pepper spray, could be hidden among regular lubricant cans, with the pepper spray label removed and replaced to
match the others.
One can pay via international money order, and make any comunications via email, set up and accessed from a computer at a
local library or similar.
s255 August 30th, 2008, 02:19 PM
A friend of mine posted home a telescopic baton, some knives, and machetes and such from the USA. All got through with no
problem that he could notice when he inspected the parcels. My friend put them in a parcel that contained some books and
just neglected to mention the baton.
I am not so sure about things such as firearms I doubt they would work so simply but from the point of view of the Post Office,
I doubt they would stop a baton or stun gun unless you were very unlucky. There are companies online that say they ship
internationally, and assuming they are not complete cons I would imagine you should get your goods.
Red Beret August 30th, 2008, 10:07 PM

By "home", which country are you refering to?
mike-hunt August 31st, 2008, 04:04 AM

Hears a site that claims to deliver stun guns successfully overseas by selling them in two parts, the case, and the electronics I
haven't ordered from them as it sounds a bit like a scam but the technique sounds good if you have contacts over seas or are
on vacation Http://www.safetynow.com/stunkit1.htm
As for posting objects overseas it would be hard to prove legally that you ordered or posted the goods your self as long as you
use an anonymous payment method . It is not illegal to receive mail.( Maybe some one with better knowledge of law could
correct me if I am wrong on this.)
Hear is some items that have successfully past through Australian customs. Plant based Drugs in the form of dried cactus and
fungi and even seeds they arrived labeled incense.
Gun parts - firing pins ,springs ,barrel liners, rifled chamber adapters, wooden pistol grips , laser sights and a flare gun all
these came by regular post. Also flick knives and butterfly knives have been imported in checked airport luggage I have not
herd of any items being stopped , fines or criminal charges being laid witch leads me to believe Australian customs is not as
thorough as they would like us to believe.
****************
-Hear != Here
-Herd != Heard
-Witch != which
As in, "I heard the herd coming here, but now I hear a witch eating them, which is unusual."
Get your grammar in shape, or have the ban-witch eat your account.
festergrump August 31st, 2008, 06:42 AM

It is not illegal to receive mail.(Maybe some one with better knowledge of law could correct me if I am wrong on this).
I'll correct you on this regarding US matters, anyway. It is sometimes the practice of US postmasters to open and inspect a
package's contents then reseal and send it on it's way, all to allow ample time for the package to arrive at it's destination and
be opened. If you opened it, you are now in "possession" of it. It's now yours whether you ordered it or not. Doesn't matter
what it is. It has been transfered via a network which is federally regulated (interstate or internationally), therefore answerable
to federal regulations. I doubt many other "civilized" countries are much different in this day and age.
Best thing to do when and if you receive a package of questionable contents is NOT open it. Wait until a week or two goes by
first. If you feel your package is not surveiled (or yourself under scrutiny for any reason at all) open it then. If you feel at any
way hokey about it... wait but keep it around all the same. When the postmaster or his/her fed underlings show up at your
door asking about the delivery... present to them the unopened package. Make THEM open it, even if they ask you to open it
in front of them.
They'll have ways of knowing if you reopened their re-packaging work or not. If you didn't tamper with it, you're in the clear,
that is if they're not just looking for a reason to make your life miserable and work you over with an expensive legal process.
s255 August 31st, 2008, 10:08 AM

By "home", which country are you refering to?
Sorry for not clarifying that in my post. He posted it to the Republic of Ireland.
JamieBond August 31st, 2008, 10:22 AM

I've ordered from guns2u.com plenty of times, from CS gas to blank guns (now a Cat5 firearm in the UK) all got through fine.
Only trouble I've had is when I imported a load of blank ammo, it got opened but was resealed and sent on it's way.
Red Beret September 1st, 2008, 08:00 AM

Very interesting.
I suppose, based on the above posts, one could have the item(s) mailed to a friend under a false name, or a vacant house,
and pay via an anonymous method. The only problem I can see with the vacant house is if they require a signature, and wont
leave it without one. You would then have to go to the depot and possibly produce ID.
Or you can have someone in the items country dismantle and repack the goods.
Mike Hunt; I will have a look at the stun gun kit, though I do recall having a company claiming to do this refuse to ship to me.
Emil September 1st, 2008, 03:57 PM
Well I suppose the biggest problem with getting it delivered to a vacant house is that it would probably help temporarily living
inside it, which means you would need access to it. No keys? You would have to break in which causes a problem in itself. I
mean it's not like you could just stay out on the lawn until the package arrived, as you wouldn't know when it was turning up.
Unless you have access to an asociates flat or place while he or she is away, There could be problems behind this idea. The ID
bit wouldn't be too much of a problem. Even if they do ask to see it when you collect it, making a fake ID for this situation
shouldn't be to hard. I mean quality is not a problem, most of the time they only look at it quickly and that is through the
clear plastic wallet of your wallet. I usually show my drivers license, but I imagine you could get away showing a less significant
type of ID. Even maybe your library card :D. Only has to have your name on it.
But again unless you have got access to the premises you are not going to be able to do this anyway, as they put the slip to
say "We tried to deliver but you were out" through the letterbox. Even if the house was empty, how are you meant to collect
the slip when it is on the other side of the door??
colniko September 1st, 2008, 05:27 PM

Mail forwarding may be the way to go. It's not exactly cheap though. If you look hard enough you can find companies that will
allow you to setup an account online with minimal information. You will have a real street address as opposed to a PO box and
with some companies you can select the country and perhaps even the state in which you have the mailbox. They can receive
and sign for packages and letters and will box it all up and resend it out to the address you specify.
Red Beret September 2nd, 2008, 03:14 AM

The problem with mail forwarding is, if the powers that be really want to get you for the package, they will just wait and see
where the end destination is ie; your house.
And if it is busted by customs they will just lean on the company until they give up your home address.
Emil September 2nd, 2008, 08:25 AM

Yeh I think what he meant was to basically get the mail company to forward it to the vacant address, this way you could pick
your day you wanted your package to be delivered, and you could lay low somewhere around the property, keeping an eye out
for the delivery man. Then when he arrives, just stroll around to the front of the property, maybe pretend you are doing some
work in the garden. Greet him well and he probably won't think twice, sign for your package, there you go. Load up and you
are off.
Obviously it is choosing a perfect destination where you are not overly exposed to neighbours and surrounding properties
which are likely to notice some random person strolling within the grounds. Otherwise the person who arrives first will probably
be a curious pig, and you might not be there to collect your package.
The only other problem with this mail forwarding is to find a company who do not want to many personal details and such.
Royal mail are a no no, on their website it states what is needed identification wise, and it's pretty much everything short of a
DNA sample, a finger print and a blood sample. :D
It would be tricky, but could certainly be done.
Alexires September 2nd, 2008, 08:10 PM

I have talked with a friend of mine who works for customs. He reckons that there is no way that they scan ever shipping
container that comes in. Sydney docks are open 24/7 and have a thousand shipping containers at any given time. Unless they
get a tip off, or randomly see something bad, then they won't go in.
Your best bet would be to get someone to simply remove the electronics, stick it in some kind of other electronic device and
ship it via surface mail. Get them to send the casing separately perhaps, or even in the same container. As long as nothing
looks suspicious, it should get through ok.
You could always use a residence where you know that the people are going on holiday for a while.
Red Beret September 3rd, 2008, 02:32 AM

Thanks for the info Alexires. I was looking at cell phone stun guns today, they look very realistic, but I guess they wouldn't
pack as much punch as a full size one.
They'd have a greater chance of getting through though.
Alexires September 3rd, 2008, 05:17 AM

You could always pull one apart a little and replace bits to make it more of a "Show stopper".
Then again, if you are going to do that, you might as well build your own one.
colniko September 3rd, 2008, 12:10 PM

I would have to agree with Alexires regarding building your own. If you live in a country that will not allow the import of a stun
gun, you may want to just build your own. I personally have not built one, but the plans I have seen on youtube using simple
to get parts and using a capacitor from a disposable camera seem relatively easy enough.
As far as when I suggested the mail forwarding.. that would more so be for ongoing deliveries and/or higher dollar dealing.
Spending $150 for a mailbox, then $25 to have it forwarded to your actual address (or if you are smart, another mailbox that
is local to you but would again be another $150) and all for a $50 stun gun would be amazingly stupid. Unless of course its
simply a proof of concept and you have extra money to spend on testing out idea's.
Just to comment on the idea of sending to a vacant house. I don't like the idea at all. First off, how many of us realistically
know of a truly vacant house in our area? Secondly, even if you do, you would still have to test it to make sure mail is not
being redirected to another address. Is someone picking up the mail from that location on occasion? Do the neighbors know
who should and shouldn't be there?
Unless you get a tracking number with the order to be able to see exactly when it is being delivered, it seems like a huge hit
or miss situation. And chances are, the mailman knows the place is vacant too and will find it very suspicious that now that
address is receiving a box.
Just my two cents, which is probably not worth much to anybody.
Emil September 3rd, 2008, 08:44 PM

Colniko, the whole point of the mail forwarding system would be a complete waste of time if you are just going to be sending it
to your address. There's no point adding a middleman for no reason, you would just get it delivered directly. The overall
concept is security from the forces that be and I think this is why this is being discussed. The mail forwarding would add no
advantage, because like an above member stated, if they really wanted to know the recipitent, they would just lean on the
mailing company for your details.
OK the vacant house situation isn't ideal, but if the person is willing to try and have the goods delivered straight to your front
door, then they obviously aren't that bothered in the first place. Lets not just limit the situation to stun guns. I would hardly
believe this to be worthy to cause you alot of hassle from a security point of view. If they discovered it and it wasn't legal in
your area, they would probably simply just conviscate it. Say you are having something more incriminating delivered, like
chemicals of some sort. You do not want them turning up at your address because if they are somewhat interested in the
goods, the delivery man might not be the only man turning up on your doorstep.
To be honest, the postal man/woman probably wouldn't blink twice at the vacant house situation. Lets be honest here, postal
workers probably deliver to 100+ houses a day, you really think they are actually paying any attention to anything beyond
dropping the mail off. Half the ones you come across have a walkman in their ear piece listening to music and don't even
seem to be paying any thought to their surroundings. It's almost like they are robots programmed to seak the letterbox. I
dunno how it is where you live, but around here, even if the house is empty, tonnes of mail is still delivered through the door
every day. For over a year after we moved into to our current house we were still recieving bits of the previous womans post,
who was living at a different address. See how vigilant the postal service is??? :D
The best thing would be to really have access to a place while they may be away, like Alexires said. This way you could have a
little more security and could even collect the card dropped through, and go collect at your own time.
festergrump September 3rd, 2008, 09:14 PM

To be honest, the postal man/woman probably wouldn't blink twice at the vacant house situation. Lets be honest here, postal
workers probably deliver to 100+ houses a day, you really think they are actually paying any attention to anything beyond
dropping the mail off. Half the ones you come across have a walkman in their ear piece listening to music and don't even
seem to be paying any thought to their surroundings. It's almost like they are robots programmed to seak the letterbox. I
dunno how it is where you live, but around here, even if the house is empty, tonnes of mail is still delivered through the door
every day. For over a year after we moved into to our current house we were still recieving bits of the previous womans post,
who was living at a different address. See how vigilant the postal service is??? :D
You seem to be completely missing the point with this paragraph. Alexires may have inside information on bulk shipping
containers, but do you think for one second that this is the end of the line for surveilance of parcels?
The persons who deliver the packages are the very least of your worries. They are not trained to ask questions or to determine
if a recipient is telling the truth ot not. They have no authority or a badge or even a gun. The Postal Inspector does, though.
And he/she/it does have federal authority.
So the overseas shipping container scan comes out fruitless, then it goes en route to a centralized hub. There it's content gets
broken down via zipcode to be delivered to it's destination via OTR transit. It arrives at the hub closest the recipient. It is then
ultimately put then into a package car for delivery.
How many times has this parcel been scrutinized by imaging technology before it gets delivered to your door by a monkey who
can drive a van? If such a parcel throws up red flags will it be opened, resealed, then sent on it's way, with an entourage of
agents closely tracking it if is is something of worth for the feds to bust you on.
THAT'S the point I am trying to make.
What would they do to you if you attempted to have a stungun delivered to your door if such a thing were illegal for civilians to
own right now? Probably fine you and put you on some kind of probation, right? Probably the same for pepperspray or a
baton, but somehow I think more for a Taser.
I dunno, folks. I'm also of the mind that building one of whatever would be your best and least expensive or worrisome bet no
matter what the contents of the parcel. Even firearms are not brain surgery to build.

Fester - Certainly see what you are saying. I personally wouldn't use a postal service anyway. Courier is the way to go. No ID,
just sign on the dotted line.
I don't know much about couriers, but I have had friends that have had interesting things delivered by them. Not illegal, mind
you, but things that certainly would get a few questions asked (swords, etc.).
I would imagine that if you went via courier, and your parcel made it past the general screening at the docks (surface mail of
course, air mail is a whole new ball game), then you would have very little to worry about.
All you would need to do would be find a vacant house (abandoned or otherwise), tell the courier service to give you a time for
your delivery (working or some shit like that) and tell a homeless dude you'll give him $50 to sign for your parcel for you. $10
now, $40 on him handing the parcel over. If the pork swoop down and open a can on him, you bail out. He tries to make off
with the goods, you "take" them back. He does as you ask, you give him the $50.
The most dangerous part would be when he gives the parcel to you. You would need to have enough time between him getting
it, and him giving it to you for you to know it is clean, but to make it worth his time.
colniko September 4th, 2008, 01:46 AM

I have never been one for back and forth banter over trivial things, so I will end my "debate" with a simple explanation, then
from there, your on your own.
Unless I missed something, the original post was simply asking how someone might get an item delivered to a country that
company X wont typically deliver to. Am I way off so far?
From the posts I have read on this forum, it seems the common theme is no one here likes to have to spoon feed answers to
people, but in the off chance that my long drawn out post wasn't clear enough, here is an attempt:
You live in Orwellienville and the laws are very strict. NO stunguns! Company X has an online order ability but wont ship to
Orwellienville. So, you setup a mail forwarding service with MailForwarders-R-Us which is based out of Kansas. Oh, and guess
what? Kansas CAN in fact receive shipments from Company X. Perfect! MailForwarders-R-Us account is setup and provides you
with a real street address and all, and they will ship out your packages as you specify: be it weekly, monthly, etc. And how do
they do this? They simply take your mail and/or packages and place them in yet another box and simply forward it along to
the address you specify, thus removing Company X's name from the outside. So if we are talking International shipments, I
don't think a single stungun is going to have the CIA tracking your package to Bumfuck Thailand to bust you for receiving a
stungun. I could be wrong though.
As for how to get anonymous mail? If you have been reading this forum for any amount of time and you cant figure out how
to Finagel or Social Engineer yourself an anonymous box or a fake ID or etc... well, I dont know to tell ya. Choose another
hobby.
I am waiting for the "what if" about the box going to your real address and getting in trouble. Guess what, chances are, if it
gets nabbed at customs and they really want ya, they are gonna get ya! You really think that if you have it sent to some
random house, and they REALLY want to know who gets it, you are gonna be so slick as to outsmart a surveillance team? So
this box is delivered to the vacant house... how ya going to get it?? And when ya do, they are going to get you!
Risk Vs Reward. Think smarter, not harder.
As I am sure I am going to get flamed for my sarcasm or perhaps some other over-thinker is going to "what if" the shit out of
the above, have at it, I aint biting.
Amen! Heh

A possible ploy for receiving goods that you'd rather not have come to your abode directly is this:
You cu ltivate a "receiver" by inte ntiona lly mis-a ddressing mail to go to some one who d o e s n t kno w you.
On the day before or day of the anticipated delivery of the first post sent to this address, you would go there and say it had
just been brought to your attention that there may be mail intended for you sent to this address by mistake due to a
transposed street number.:o This is when you establish yourself as whomever you are going to be addressing the mail to.
Upon receiving this first misdire cted post, you apologetically o ffer them a 6-pack or a ten dollar b ill for their trouble.
Mentioning th at there may b e another misdirected post alread y in the mail so you d be ch ecking b ack in case the "ad dress
correction":rolleyes: had been put in too late. This second pos t would be the contrab and .:cool:
Y o u d want to covertly observe the delivery and receipt of the 2nd. p ackage to be sure there was no take-down of the dupe
by LE.
Disclaimer- There may well be flaws w/this idea. It is proposed to add to the discussion of ideas to safely receive items in the
mail.
Emil September 4th, 2008, 08:56 AM

Fester:
I am not missing the point with that paragraph, maybe it should of been worded slightly different. I am NOT condeming the
efficiency of the entire postal service, I was merley making a point to Colniko that the mail guy who delivers it to the door
doesn't and wouldn't know if the property has been abandoned for 2 years, or it has a thriving family of 6 inside.
I was actually confirming the need to not have some package which may have something illeagal delivered to your front door.
In your country possibly the discovery of a stun gun, on it's way to a state which it is illeagal is quite a big deal, which gets
dealt with accordingly. Over here a stun gun would probably hardly cause that much of a bother, due to the somewhat useless
justice system we have in place. They would just simply conviscate it I imagine and you would have just wasted your money.
Something more serious and you would probably have the attention of alot more. Personally, either way I wouldn't get
anything delivered to my front door, knowing it was illeagal in any way. It is just asking for trouble.
Cobalt:
That is actually quite a good idea. Most people are quite reasonable, and if it happens to be some average person of the
community,this would be quite an understandable mistake. You could use a number of variations for your excuse for the
mishap. "I live in 5 Caesar Drive, and I made a mistake while ordering and had it delivered to 5 Caesar Close." Etc.
You could just say you did it online on their website, and until recently checking the receipt, you realised that you had types in
the wrong address. A small gester would get things flowing nicely in this situation, and you could simply check back after the
delivery has been made.

Yes, I see your point too, Emil. No disrespect was intended. I do have a pretty good grasp on things of this nature having
worked in the shipping industry's many aspects of it from a shipping container package loader to a few companies' shipping
manager to an OTR driver for a few other companies. I have also had some very shady friends who dabbled a bit in this covert
trade of "getting things" to other people in the past.
I like Cobalt's straight forward approach. It just may work a time or two, though you really should know the "duped" and how
they might react first better than a complete stranger. I wouldn't do it to an unsuspecting friend, but an occasional
acqaintance... maybe a friendly coworker who undeservingly got promoted instead of you? Hmmmmm....
[Edit: Scratch that. If you work with them you may have to explain too much. I do like the idea, though, and think it warrants
some more thought.]
Emil September 4th, 2008, 02:20 PM

That's fine don't worry. Yes previous working experiences are always very handy for future needs. Even when you don't realise
it, you are learning little bits of handy information that will someday possibly be of use.
I wouldn't do it to an unsuspecting friend, but an occasional acqaintance... maybe a friendly coworker who undeservingly got
promoted instead of you? Hmmmmm....
I like this, a little bit of revenge. That could be quite a way to get someone back actually, as long as your not intending
showing your face and collecting it. Just order a few kgs of Red phosphorous or some other nasty clandestine related chemical,
put it in their name and their address. ;)
This idea most surely has some merit though, it would just be picking the right target and location.
Red Beret September 4th, 2008, 11:31 PM

I had actually thought of the idea of having it sent to a wrong adress before. The fact you have too Cobalt .45, makes me
think it could be quite a solid idea, with a bit of tweaking.
Also I like the idea of having it sent to a known person, under their name. If they get busted (and you don't like them), cool.
If it gets through, great. How to retreive it though? It wouldn't be too hard I guess.
We've generated quite a bit of healthy discussion on this.
Hehe, *evil thought*, have it sent to the innocent old lady down the road, she will likely believe any BS story given to her.
Offer to have a cup of tea or something with her. Most elderly folk would love a bit of attention and will gladly chat with and
help a stranger, they don't care usually, as long as they have someone to talk to.

I admit the idea of purposefully sending an illegal/red flag item to a "deserving" party had not crossed my mind... but I likey!
Kind of a twist of ordering ten pizzas sent to an antagonist.:D
But I really like the deal Red Beret mentions, where you befriend some poor elderly shut-in, even if you ARE using them. God
knows, the deplorable way the elderly get treated in this day and age is nothing short of fucking deplorable, best I not get
started in re this.
It kinda evens out the karma for duping them ITFP. And, if you brighten the otherwise depressing day of some poor soul (I'm
soft, I know:p), all the better, IMO. And, they wouldn't be anywhere near as likely to take a fall for the contents of the post,
should LE be aware of it.
Like festergrump said, it wouldn't be an on-going operation, likely would only work a time or two w/the same address/
individual.
The only real prob. I see with the "abandoned house" ploy, is that YOU have to be the initial recipient. If there's surveillance,
you will likely get nipped.
Possibly, the better choice might be an ordinary person and not a shut-in. If LE does a background on the recipient, an old
lady would look like a ruse and they might just wait on you to show up, after having questioned the oldster as to their
participation.
An individual who is a "regular" person would be viewed as the perpetrator, although a dumb one, by LE and would be taken
down as soon as the parcel was delivered and sufficient time elapsed for the package to be opened. They should't know you
prior to the delivery , else they would surely turn you in. Because of your initial visit, they would have a description of your
looks, but by being careful, that's about ALL they would have to give to LE.
festergrump September 5th, 2008, 08:11 AM

Daily Herald headline (above the fold):
ELDERLY BEWARE!
A new wave of Terror is sweeping the streets of America lately. Apparently terrorists are now smuggling weapons into the
country under the guise of befriending the elderly with promises of tea, crumpets, and good conversation-- All to exploit them
for their mailing addresses where their terroristic cohorts can send them weapons of mass destruction undetectedly while the
unwitting victims casually sip their beverages and share personal life stories with their attackers. [continued on page 5]
:rolleyes: LOL! :D
Seriously now... this is an awesome idea! And the great part about it is that most elderly have some truly fantastic stories to
tell, so you're not bored while you wait or have to pretend to work the yard or anything similar... Brilliant!
Possibly, the better choice might be an ordinary person and not a shut-in. If LE does a background on the recipient, an old
lady would look like a ruse and they might just wait on you to show up, after having questioned the oldster as to their
participation.
But in your defense, you are just there as a concerned citizen who cares for the elderly after you witnessed firsthand the
atrocities inflicted on some of them in various retirement homes you recently did volunteer work at (is my halo showing yet?).
Certainly the name on the package would not match the ID in your wallet, right? "She must be mistaken, officer. I'm Joe Blow
from Cocomo. Package? What package?"
Emil September 5th, 2008, 08:55 AM

:D Now that made me chuckle.
Now the only problem I see with a "regular" person, is lets be honest here. A package that turns up at your house awaits you
with curiousity, it is much more exciting that a normal letter which you know is going to be a bill or a piece of junk mail. This
means they are going to open it up almost instantly.
The main problem I see with this is that the person who is the target may actually take your item and claim it as theirs. then
when you turn up they may just possibly deny it and write off your story, then what can you do?? Nothing. The other possible
route is they deem the contents as suspicious and then report it. It all depends what type of person is occupying the address,
and that is really quite important for the outcome of the situation.
This is the main problem I see with waiting to possibly avoid any LE interaction. By the time you go back to claim your lost
package, it could be long out of your reach. I mean come on, say it's chemicals and the old lady opens it up and sees some
white powder, you can bet your right foot that she is going to report it. I believe it is necessary to intercept the package before
the contents are opened. Even if it means possibly visiting the person before the package is delivered. "Sorry to bother you
there but I have made a mistake, You should be recieving a package of mine within the next week." Etc. You get the overall
idea, this way when the package turns up they don't open it as they will know.
Unfortuanetly in this type of situation, you have to trade a little bit of security, for the success of the whole operation.
Over here in the UK, the houses all have letter boxes on the actual door, meaning when your post gets delivered, it comes
through your front door onto your hallway. If it is something to big for the box, they knock on the door. In the US, dont you
have like seperate post boxes out by the bottom of the front lawn, or is that only in certain places???

A while ago (post-9/11 and the anthrax through-the-mail scare) I heard that the USPS as well as the local utilities and even
the cable companies were put on alert, either by mandate or voluntarily, to be on the look-out for nefarious goings-ons. I
would not want to bet the farm that the (apparently) brain-dead mail carrier was not up for blowing in a suspicious delivery on
THEIR turf.
Even if it means possibly visiting the person before the package is delivered. "Sorry to bother you there but I have made a
mistake, You should be recieving a package of mine within the next week." Etc. You get the overall idea, this way when the
package turns up they don't open it as they will know.Damn, I with I'd have thought of that! LOL But that you came up w/the
idea independently shows there might be some merit in it...
But in your defense, you are just there as a concerned citizen who cares for the elderly... Certainly the name on the package
would not match the ID in your wallet, right?... Package? What package?"You are absolutely right, fester. I had not seen this
angle.:o
Code Red September 7th, 2008, 07:22 AM

My experiences:
Years ago, well before the 9/11 bullshit, I filled out an order form from a gun magazine to have a stun gun sent to me
(Australia), from the U.S.
The U.S company had a printed section on the order form claiming it is up to the purchaser to know local laws etc.
I sent off the the form, along with 60 or so dollars at the time, and got nothing for about 1 month. I thought I had been
duped and moved on.
Then, low and behold, I recieve a letter in the mail from the U.S company claiming how the country I want the item shipped to
(Aus) has different rules blah blah blah and I needed to sign a form stating that I accept that, and continue on with the deal.
I did sign the letter and sent it off.
2 months later and not having heard from anyone, I then thought the item was grabbed by customs and that was the end of
it... I assumed they just kept the things they found to be 'illegal'.
Sadly a letter arrived, from the customs assholes. In the letter it stated that I had imported stun gun model (whatever it was)
and that the item requires a special permit. I was given 21 days to come up with a police commissioners permit allowing me to
own and have one. Of course I didn't, and they then sent a letter afterwards claiming the item was now in their posession for
destruction or whatever.
Assholes!
2nd case:
While I was in Italy I purchased a replica Glock 9mm for 50,000 lira, around 50 bucks Aus at the time.
The thing was great, looked and felt exactly like the real deal. I really wanted to take it home with me, but I was concerned
having it in my luggage, as I was travelling extensively worldwide.
While in the U.K, I placed the 'gun' in a plain postage packet and sent it off to an address in Australia, a friend of mine.
I didn't put any return address on the parcel, and wrapped it nicely.
After my travels were over, I was shown a letter by the friend which customs had sent him. The letter went on to say that the
'toy' was considered to be a replica handgun, and was not allowed into Australia, therefore it was being destroyed, or some shit
along those lines!
These days, I'm sure the screening process is much more stringent. After these 2 failed attempts I no longer use any postal
service to transport 'goods'. Most of my parcels I recieve from overseas have evidence of being opened and resealed with cell
tape!
Unfortunately, the best ways of having something sent by post (stun gun, etc) is to have somebody living in the 'normal'
country strip the item, and send it in pieces.
Otherwise, stow the item in your luggage bag and take it home yourself. It's a good excuse to go on a holiday!
hatal September 7th, 2008, 04:06 PM

The best idea (IMHO) is to dissassemble the gun and hide every part in a different mail package with the piece worked into
some cheap metallic machine-component.
Elementary the package content label should say: XYZ machine-component or SomeShitty mechanic accessory.
This ofcourse, makes the delivery a bit more pricey but the rate of recieving the parts is more likely.
I havent worked out a method on delivering drugs but Im working on it :D

The best idea (IMHO) is to dissassemble the gun and hide every part in a different mail package...Not a thing wrong w/this
AFAIK, but in most cases it's the receiver that is the taboo part for being mailed (at least in the US). Camouflaging it will be
the bitch:(, IMHO.
Code Red: I can't believe the pork took your replica! What possible harm is a toy, for chrissakes? Ah, but don't we all feel just
so fucking much safer:p!?!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C hicken Shit Blaster
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View Full Version : Chicken Shit Blaster
shooter3 August 30th, 2008, 10:38 PM

T h i s m ay sound a little unusual, and I may getting josh ed, but I was talking to an old timer and he swares that in the old days
h e u s e d c o m p o s t e d c h i c k e n p o o p a n d k e r o s e n e t o b l a s t r o c k . I d o n ' t t h i n k h e m eant "detonate", but blasting, as in black
powder.
He said the compost was 45% nitrate, the rest was orga nic. To this a sm all amount of kerosene was added. It was shot with a
cap.
T h e q u e s t i o n t o y o u f a r m er type guys; Has any of you heard of this? Eve n if it was just a rumor?
H e u s e d t o q uarry "Bluestone" on his land, and this concoction d idn't sha tter the rock. It would com e of the ledge with nice
straight faces.
hereticalhermit August 30th, 2008, 11:51 PM

During WW 1 and earlier, com posting m anure with lots o f urine over a period of a year or so was the m e t h o d u s e d t o p r o d u c e
potassium nitrate, bu t I have never heard of shit piles igniting o r exploding in this manne r.
Red Beret August 31st, 2008, 12:02 AM

I ' v e h e a r d s o m e t h i n g sim ilar relating to cow shit. But thats all.
W h a t d i d h e m e a n " c o m posed of 45% nitrate"....potassium nitrate....amm onium nitrate?
W hat size cap, do you know?
iHME August 31st, 2008, 05:37 AM

W asn't som ething like this in som e k 3 W l c r a p b o o k ?
I rem e m b e r r e a d i n g a b o u t s o m ething like this in one of the ACBees or som e "terrorist m anual" it was refered as the "Bird Shit
B o m b"
Specified detonating ~0.5L bird shit with a deto nator in a pop bottle.
Hinckleyforpresident August 31st, 2008, 05:54 AM

Bat guano is a legitim a t e e x a m ple of nitrate rich poo.
However, I believe that this idea is mo stly arou nd to get kewls to collect jars of shit. Even if the cra p c o n t a i n s 1 0 % a m m onium
nitrate, do you really want to collect a kilo of crap to get 100g of nasty, im pure AN?
festergrump August 31st, 2008, 07:02 AM

A nitrate is a nitrate is a nitrate to such a vague degree as you've related? Your detonation or deflagration will reflect the purity
of the nitrate you use in this instance, therefore I feel it's possible, but with ever so varying degrees of success. Not som ething
I'd bank on.
I can't help but wonder what h e m ight have fed his chickens for any continuity of success in this regard, tho ugh... :eek:
How in the hell did yo u come up with the 45% figure I m u s t a s k ?
Cobalt.45 August 31st, 2008, 08:08 AM

C o m p o s t i n g a s m e n t i o n e d i n t h e O P could concentrate the nitrates but where the 45% came from , who kno ws.
Not worth sta rting a war over- at least not anym ore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Pacific
Kaydon August 31st, 2008, 09:30 AM

Sounds like som ething out of a crapbook, as stated.
I've lived around farm ers all of my life and never heard of anything like that.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > computer security
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mike-hunt September 5th, 2008, 10:10 PM

Just how safe are our computers and how effective is some of the various computer software available at protecting us from law enforcement ? I have recently been using the
free encryption software truecript I encrypted my complete hard drive and was wondering gust how secure my system was .I also have the switchproxy firefox add on that I
occasionally use .I get my proxy lists from proxy checker http://www.ip-adress.com/Proxy_Checker/ and have it set to change between 3 different elite proxys every 90
seconds . I was told this was the best way to cover my tracks if I was ever up to anything that may interest local law enforcement.
I strongly suspect that the various initialed agencies would not allow any software that they themselves can not defeat to become available to us citizens wanting our privacy
though I feel I am safe from the local pigs .I am shore I am not the only one concerned with online privacy and would be interested to here from anyone that has experience in
such matters.
Hinckleyforpresident September 6th, 2008, 01:09 AM

The ISP can monitor any plaintext coming from or going to your computer..... That being said, proxies will only protect you if the website is the only organization watching you.
Odds are, if they want to get you, they have a tap on your connection at the nearest ISP distribution center.
This can be more or less defeated by using an encrypted tunnel to a proxy server. However, you have to trust the proxy server owner, because they too can be monitoring
you.
Regarding disc encryption: only use programs that are open source and use established encryption algorithms (such as PGP, TrueCrypt, and GPG).

From people I have talked with about this sort of thing and what I have read from all four corners of the known universe, the general consensus seems to be that Bruce
Schneier is THE man to learn from about security issue of all kinds, including computer security.
You might find much useful information on his website (www.schneier.com) or from some of his books and blog.
mike-hunt September 7th, 2008, 01:29 AM

Thanks FG exactly what I was looking for.
There is a lot of misinformation on this subject this seems to be the most up to date and accurate source .
Bruce Schneier aplied cryptography - e book torrent

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3530141/(eBook)_Bruce_Schneier_-_Applied_Cryptography__Second_Edition_-
pangos_59 September 8th, 2008, 02:26 PM

Steganography is my favorite firm of encryption. http://www.google.com/search?q=steganography&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
megalomania September 9th, 2008, 10:31 PM

Steganography only really helps you if it remains undetected, then it is just regular encryption. The fedgov developed tools to identify steganographically encrypted files on the
Internet just after 9-11. There is, or was at one time, a tool you could download to analyze your computer to detect stego files. The scientists who published the tool and the
research already developed the tool, but it became news after 9-11 because they said the terrorists were using it.
They actually scanned popular websites of the time, that being places like free website hosts, hotmail, ebay, and the tool found some stego files. Apparently there is a very
limited amount of data that can be steganographically encrypted into a file before it becomes easily detectable.
I used steganography at the time to turn image files into the equivalent of zip files so I could store stuff on free webhosts. By 2000, just before the dot com bust, there were a
ton of sites offering 1GB of space, but they all limited you to just jpgs and html files. This was the time of Napster's legal battles and the rise of the pirated mp3, and of course
pirates had been using these freebie accounts for years, which is why the only thing you could stick online were basic websites.
Indeed the safest way to access the Internet is to piggyback on some wireless connection and surf anonymously. You will also need a clean machine just in case there is some
evil software that likes to call home and talk about you, and let's face it, a lot of software does this nowadays (anyone use the latest Nero? All it does is scan your drives and
call home. What in god's name is it doing?)
I see there are now special versions of Firefox that can be run in a "sanboxed" mode. These browsers have no cache, no usage data, and basically leave no trail once closed.
Combine such a browser with the very cheap and very large capacity USB drives and you coud have a secure, encrypted, portable (disposable) computer.
You can run some operating systems from a USB drive, which might let you boot up even on a public computer (assuming you can set an external drive as a boot device in the
BIOS). As a handy bonus a USB drive could be quickly destroyed, or hidden, if you feel a terrorist/fedgov attack is iminent.
I can store 16GB on a drive on my keychain, and connect this to a Palm pilot that fits in my pocket, that in turn can log into a wireless connection. Decent data storage,
Internet connectivity, and pocket sized portability, and all this for only a few hundred bucks. If there is something you don't want "them" to know, you have to be proactive
and take active countermeasures. They can't be everywhere, watch everything, and know all. They state is not god, as much as it wishes otherwise.
akinrog September 11th, 2008, 02:54 PM

I can store 16GB on a drive on my keychain, and connect this to a Palm pilot that fits in my pocket, that in turn can log into a wireless connection.
Sir,
Connecting via wireless is not totally bulletproof. Wireless card of your computer, just as any ethernet device, has a MAC number embedded into it.
So if someone is after your ass (sorry for this expression), they may sniff the packages you are sending and get your network adaptor's MAC number. And if they get you and
the device you are connecting through, they may compare and match the MAC numbers they have with those of yours.
What I suggest is learning how to use linux distributions. I must warn everybody, it's really a pain in the heinie to set up a (secure) linux computer.
For example, I'm using debian etch, with all drives encrypted with AES, and TOR provoxy duo for internet connectivity, to conceal my hobby activities, which may get me into
trouble here.
I even have some computers with dual boot capabilities, one OS is regular M$ product (licensed) and other one is Debian on encrypted partitions. Encrypted partitions (including
swap partition) cannot be accessed from regular and licensed M$ OS too, because they are well hidden and strongly encrypted.
In addition, despite the strong encryption speed and performance of linux OS is really impressive except for a few glitches. I even managed to get my embedded wireless
adaptor working :)
Regards.
iHME September 11th, 2008, 06:13 PM

If ones wireless card has its MAC and serial in its firmware, some custom drivers kan allow you to change them.
Think about a script that generates a new MAC and every time you connect to a network.
Groovey little program I found a while back. It won't change the MAC address on your firmware, but will change what other computers see it as. Has a long list of random mac
addresses, so there is no shortage to choose from.
TMAC (http://tmac.technitium.com/tmac/index.html)
akinrog September 12th, 2008, 01:01 PM

Think about a script that generates a new MAC and every time you connect to a network.
In linux distros, there is a command line utility that changes MAC number of your network adaptor.
Name of this utility is called MACChanger (how a creative name isn't it :D). However it works like a charm.
Before connecting to the websites of questionable content, I'm changing MAC number of my wireless card and use it over TOR + Privoxy duo.
BTW, for those who hates (i.e. could not manage to install) linux distros, There are Win32 implementations of TOR and Privoxy too.
But the advantage a linux distro, if you create encrypted partitions (including swap), you almost create a black box, entrance of which, only you know.
With swap encrypted with a random key, you do not worry about the fragments of memory which may be analyzed by forensic scientists. If you bother to assign separate
partitions for each functional folders (i.e. /var, /home, /tmp, etc.), you may even complicate the issue of forensic analysis much more.
Only non-encrypted partition is boot partition, which must remain non-encrypted for boot functions.
Regards.

Hmm, I suppose on could stick a copy of a virtual computer program (qemu, bochs, virtualpc, vmware etc) on a USB stick and then have multiple virtual HDD images on there
as well. for changing the mac of my wired Ethernet under Linux I would just use ifconfig (it shipped with most Linux distributions). The default MAC (at least for wired) is IIRC a
formatted number, and as long as proper data is set in the right fields it doesn't care about about the rest, and your MAC should not leave the Ethernet segment nor your not
publicly route-able IP address (ie 192.168.x.x, 10.x.x.x etc) pass the local NAT box

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > The end is near, the end is
near?
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phrankinsteyn S e p t e m b e r 8 th, 2008, 03:13 AM

A lin k to a fu nny, at least I thought so :), video (rapping scientists) of th e CERN's 17-Mile-Long Atom Sm a s h e r t h a t c o m e s
online Wednesday. Could this be the end as some believe? :eek:
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=j50ZssEojtM
Link to article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com / 2 0 0 8 / 0 9 / 0 7 / c e r n s - 1 7 - m i l e - l o n g - a t o m -s_n_124653.htm l
Alexires S e p t e m b e r 8 th, 2008, 04:15 AM

Honestly, I d on't think it is the end. Ju st another excuse for the doom sayers to predict th e end of the world.
At least when we do it, it has style and some kind of basis in truth. The kind of energies that the CERN reactor is wo rking with
just isn't larg e enough for blackholes/fabric-of-space-time-tearing.
I love that rap, it is fairly ingenuous, a n d s o u n d s l i k e s o m ething a couple of physics dudes would do to pass the tim e .
W hile you wait for the "end", have a lo ok here (http://x kcd.com/401/). Gotta love XKCD.
megalomania S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2008, 06:43 PM

I h e a r d t h e m talking about that rap on NPR last week. It was m a d e b y s o m e p h y s i c s g r a d s t u d e n t I b e l i e v e . I t p a s s e d t h e
geek test, "the science was accurate" one of the CERN physicists being in terviewed said.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Poor them ....
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pangos_59 S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2008, 10:06 AM

W hy won't our govern m e n t a d m it it's faults? http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080908/ap_on_re _as/afghan_civilian_death s
James S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2008, 12:50 PM

It's called ass coverin g. Nobody wants to admit something like that, so they gene rally cover it up to a degree. Of course it's
inconceivable that 'terrorists' would sneak in after the raid and pull out their buddies corpses while putting in some civilians who
don't tow the party line. By the time anyone got around to check ing the corpses would be buried and have rotted.
Cobalt.45 S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2008, 01:31 PM

Quotes from the above-sited AP blurb: "The videos do not provide proof that 60 children died in the operation..." and, "It was
im possible to verify conclusively that the videos showed the afterm ath of the Azizabad attack..." not to m ention, "U.S. special
forces and Afghan com mandos carried out the operation." (bold, italic, underscore mine).
And lastly, consider the source.:rolleye s:
iHME S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2008, 06:28 PM

W hy would they adm it anythin g? The world police som etim e s m i s s e s a s h o t : P

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > The YouTube Dumbass Thread
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Positron September 12th, 2008, 02:33 AM

Shredded his left hand and peppered other areas. Classic shitty fuse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro889KPZX6g
Lewis September 12th, 2008, 04:00 AM

Firstly, it was not a fuse issue, this guy tried to pry apart a blasting cap, and had it go off.
Secondly, this video was JUST posted in the WC. :rolleyes:
Positron September 12th, 2008, 04:59 AM

Oh shit...I don't know how that happened...I was the one that posted the other video of the detonator screw-up.
THIS is the correct URL for THIS thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjwnJ9RuX4I
My apologies. Sorry about that.
hatal September 12th, 2008, 07:51 AM

Playing, huh? Well done "stumpy".
1. video: Useless weed playing.
2. video: Next time electric delay or a longer fuse and without "playing".
Mr Science November 6th, 2008, 03:54 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS-9NNAFGTs
Typical Obama supporter? :D Try to watch 5 seconds without getting annoyed.
hatal November 6th, 2008, 06:11 AM

[URL] Try to watch 5 seconds without getting annoyed.
Impossible. I tried hard.
iHME November 6th, 2008, 02:41 PM

Got as far as 3 seconds, seriously I hate kids making videos where they babble.

I hope he drinks bleach.
Hinckleyforpresident November 6th, 2008, 03:30 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS-9NNAFGTs
Typical Obama supporter? :D Try to watch 5 seconds without getting annoyed.
I bet he gets all the dumocrat ladies with that Marvin Gaye voice.
-=HeX=- November 6th, 2008, 06:29 PM

Kaydon: unfortunately drinking bleach will not off the idiot. My annoying brother drank bleach while a baby and is still alive, however It believe it retarded him a bit.

Damnit.
Alright, kerosene.
PMK November 6th, 2008, 09:28 PM

Nah, don't make him drink it, just soak him in some of it.
Then let him play with matches. :-D

Honestly, if there ever was a reason for sterilisation, that kid is that reason.
I love how he stumbles because he has an unjustified belief that somehow, by having a black president who is a democrat it will solve the problems that his nation faces.
I'm going with the bleach. Kerosene will just give him the shits.... like he gives me.
slarter November 6th, 2008, 10:58 PM

I say to give him the bleach, with an ammonia chaser. :)

Oh, I lasted 28 seconds, but I got annoyed by his voice in the one second before I even opened the tab :( That is one geekly looking ugly kid. Fat buck teeth, braces, and a
voice like nails on a chalkboard. Anyone think this is put on or is he for real? The dumbshit isn't even old enough to vote.
What was it Churchill said, "If you are not a liberal by age 20 you have no heart. If you are not a conservative by age 30 you have no brain." Amen to that. My personal
favorite is "A liberal is a conservative who has not yet been mugged."
Killy November 21st, 2008, 10:14 AM

Kid calles himself "sexman" LOL
Looking on him, he could act 2 roles in movie Deliverence, famous scene,

with that retarded face like redneck" and with that mouth like Jon Voight.
Rbick November 22nd, 2008, 12:20 PM

I turned it off right after he said "HELLO YOUTUBE!" at 2 seconds. Then I had to force myself not to gouge my eyes out with a rusty nail. I don't know what mated to create
that disgusting creature, but I certainly wouldn't want to meet them in a dark ally for fear of being eaten alive.
I love how kids like this think they have such a profound world view because they watch CNN and everyone else who doesn't agree with it is ignorant. I'll bet the extent of his
knowledge as far as Obama's policies go are as such: Tax the rich, hes black, and hes a liberal. These people are the future of America... Scary isn't it?
Yafmot November 22nd, 2008, 04:57 PM

I managed to last through the whole thing. Luckily, I had 2,500 mg of Thorazine ready in a syringe, and the therapists say I'll be better soon.
By the way, that was what is known, in the medical profession, as a V.U.K. (Very Ugly Kid).
ductape man November 22nd, 2008, 05:30 PM

These liberals think that they can fix the worlds problems by spending every ones money. However when you ask them why not just spend their money they have no answer.
This reeks of Marxism. This is what these idiots elected a true Marxist who they believe is a Messiah. who with the power from above will wave his hand and make all their
problems go away.
++++++++++++++++
Improve your grammar. - totenkov
Alexires November 22nd, 2008, 09:05 PM

Ductape Man - Your post was shit house. It went beyond shit house. So full of spelling errors....No, you see, you go way beyond simple 'spelling errors'.
Imagine the English language is a tender young cabana boy named Felipe. You are the travelling, lonely, sexually frustrated businessman named Jorge. One day you meet
Felipe and begin to earn his trust. You learn a little about him, just enough to take advantage of him.
Then one day you take Felipe, and in an attempt to serve your own selfish desires you rape him. You violate him. You turn Felipe's anus into a playground of blood, faeces and
tears. After what you've done to Felipe, he will never be the same. He will never trust again. Never love again.
Shame on you, Jorge. Shame on you.:(

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Re: hard to place a title on this
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Thermiteisfun September 24th, 2008, 07:23 PM

One simple question to provoke discussion and speculation......
Do you think the reason this site HASN'T been shut down is because our respective governments use us as lab rats for
devising methods to circumvent their efforts in an attempt to prevent a problem the information contained here may pose at
any given point?
As while I am drunk ATM and simply browsing I will think of more to say to flesh out my thoughts in the morning however this
question poopped into my mind and just HAD to be asked! It took a monumental effort to correct my post in my current state
:)

I think that if more US government agencies knew how we exercised our 1st Amendment rights here there would be alot more
pressure to shut RS down. It has been tried before, but it'll take more than the likes of iDefense to do so.
From what I have read here in the past, there are restrictions put forth on ISPs abroad not allowing their customers access to
RS. AOL does it willingly here in the states, but I think I remember reading that it's hard to get here from Australia and the
UK, too. Or at least it was. Anyone confirm this?
I've thought about this myself (both sober and inebriated) and think that perhaps they like the idea of being able to read
what we have to say. Sort of a "keep your friends close but your enemies closer" sort of deal? Free-thinkers are definitely on
their enemy list. That's one way to look at it.
Another is, aside from applying pressure on the host of this site, they really have no Constitutional leg to stand on to do any
worse to stop us at the source. If they can lean on and strongarm the host to make them shut us down willingly and of their
own accord (only temporarily, mind you) then they have only reinforced the fervor with which we come popping back into action.
Hosting RS in the USA guarantees the site freedom of speech. If we were to ever lose that right, I think it could still be kept
afloat if hosted overseas from a country which cares not at all for American BS politics, only US money. There are many other
ideas being discussed in such a case, also. I have little fear the voice of RS will ever be totally snuffed out. ;)
I'd almost bet my bottom dollar that there are US government agents who curse and grit their teeth just knowing that they
cannot do anything to shut us up right now. "That damn 1A just keep getting in the way!" :p

Thermite - Then again, look at all the "anarchy" forums on the internet. I don't think they come up with much that is of worth
(especially TOTSE) and they haven't been closed down.
I suppose it is possible that they are just sitting back, catching all the IP addresses as they come here and tracking them, but
if you are using a proxy like TOR, that will make things harder for them.
God, some of the ideas I have come up with while drunk have been awesome! Then I normally forget them by morning due to
handover :mad:
Need to keep a "Piss Book" to write all my ideas in while I'm riding the EtOH train.
Edit: And why the fuck does TOTSE get a wiki article, but we don't? Then again, people reference us in wiki, which kind of
makes up for it I suppose :rolleyes:
Thorald September 25th, 2008, 03:41 PM

Fester - I read here that AOL is blocked from using The Explosives and Weapons Forum. Not AOL restricting their customers. I
seem to recall reading a post of nbk's that mentioned how the majority of Kewls use AOL and that's why they were blocked.
Is that true or not..?

...it is possible that they are just sitting back, catching all the IP addresses as they come here and tracking them...I have
believed this to be the case, from the first post ever I submitted. To believe anything less is to be naive, IMO.
In a worst-case scenario, conspiracy would be our biggest threat and their most likely used tactic. Again, IMO.
shady mutha September 25th, 2008, 06:20 PM

I don't think the alphabet boys care to much about RS though it would not suprise me if they did keep a good eye on us.
At the end of the day its just information.
After all the years of RS I can recall only 2 members who commited crimes which leads me to believe 99.9 of us are just
interested in science and self defence ect, not in damaging people or property.

I think it's safe to assume that governments know we're here. They probably learned something after raiding SJ game back in
'90? Most anarchy sites pull in those who are 'young, dumb and full of cum' (I know bad quote). Boston T. Party says there are
two types of laws 'mala in se' (things everyone knows is wrong, and hence can't plead ignorance of) and 'mala prohibita' (which
are arbitrary crimes created by politicians). The purpose of the latter is to crush the spirit and create criminals (which probably
includes most of us)
Hinckleyforpresident September 25th, 2008, 08:57 PM

The purpose of the latter is to crush the spirit and create criminals (which probably includes most of us)
Speak for yourself... I for one am no criminal, and I am doubtful that "most" of the members here are either.

Hinckleyforpresident - In the eyes of the law makers, we are all criminals, just waiting to commit a crime.

@Alexires
Sadly, you are correct. But luckily they are still having trouble prosecuting potential future crimes.
I fear for the day when I can be tried and convicted for buying some drain opener and sugar substitute within a 2 week period.

True, they might have trouble convicting you of thinking of crime, but what happens when the laws are ambiguous? Exceeding
the time limit of a park not only merits a fine, but suddenly turns into "surveillance of a potential terrorist" target.
Thought crime will be hard to bring in, but when everything is illegal, everyone is a criminal.

Thorald, I tried a few times to log in from work on the office computer I had at my disposal. They had only an AOL account at
the time. I could not access RS. NBK told me that it was possible from there, but due to AOL's policy of not allowing their
customers access to the site... he and Mega merely returned the favor. Who would want an AOLer here, anyway? :rolleyes: :p
phrankinsteyn September 26th, 2008, 02:33 PM

If this site is monitored and under "good" law enforcement it probably is. I believe that political, religious or racial beliefs
(words and slurs) should not be used here. The information that we exchange should be totally on a "how to" basis with more
of an emphasis on "hypothetical". Names, avatars, titles and signatures should all be neutral and in english. I believe
signatures are already required to be in english.
The moderators spend a lot of time on correct grammar, and they should, but incorrect grammar won't shut this group down
(could get a few hurt though hypothetically :)). Discussing political, religious or racial beliefs can and would be used against
this site (and you) if the government ever chooses to prosecute. I believe that a few of us could name some sites (on the
right and left wing) that were brought down for there content or altered because of it.
Some may consider this paranoid, I don't. Why would I give the government, or anyone, evidence to use against me? I always
try to think what my action(s) would look like if I were standing in front of a jury; how would I explain my statements (posts),
books, tools, actions, etc.? They may and probably will pass another law, and grandfather it in, that makes you now a criminal
for what you did or said yesterday. The domestic violence laws, pertaining to firearms (USA) is just one example.
If you have a guard dog his name does not have to be Killer (if trained properly he is) to be effective. Fluffy would be just as
good as a name. And if you were brought up on charges, because the dog did its job, it would sound a lot better to say to the
jury: Fluffy attacked the bad guy. The name Killer might not go over as well.
I wonder some times about the names and posts here. Are the people posting them young, naive or working for the
authorities?

Some interesting opinions here that I'd like to comment on. Please take no offence- the discussion is just that- a
discussion.:)If this site is monitored and under "good" law enforcement it probably is.I don't understand. Good LE? As in doing
the right thing?:confused:
I believe that political, religious or racial beliefs (words and slurs) should not be used here.Bah. I for one don't see discriptives
as being a problem. If one were to say they wanted to kill a segment of the population, well, that might be a problem- IF you
actually carried it out. Is it illegal to use "nigger", "kike", "polock", "rag head", etc? I really have no idea.
Names, avatars, titles and signatures should all be neutral and in english.I don't see any type or form of censorship- self-
imposed or otherwise- as valid. ALL post content is to be in English, AFAIK. Except possibly quotes, maybe sigs and the odd
Latin phrase type of thing. I fully support second-person and "SWIM" recounting of tales.
Discussing political, religious or racial beliefs can and would be used against this site (and you) if the government ever
chooses to prosecute. I believe that a few of us could name some sites (on the right and left wing) that were brought down for
there content or altered because of it.I'm unaware of this- both that "beliefs can and would...", etc, and sites brought down or
altered because of these beliefs. I would like to hear some opinions on this as well as supporting evidence. It's not so much
that I doubt it, I would just like more info!
The domestic violence laws, pertaining to firearms (USA) is just one example.I don't follow- example of what?
]I wonder some times about the names and posts here. Are the people posting them young, naive or working for the
authorities?Any examples?
FUTI September 26th, 2008, 05:29 PM

If this site is monitored and under "good" law enforcement it probably is. I believe that political, religious or racial beliefs
(words and slurs) should not be used here. The information that we exchange should be totally on a "how to" basis with more
of an emphasis on "hypothetical". Names, avatars, titles and signatures should all be neutral and in english. I believe
signatures are already required to be in english.
I think that to that every reasonable state would monitor this site, and the freaks like that one in Finland that posted the
video on youtube and then go to school on killing rampage give them an excellent excuse.
The moderators spend a lot of time on correct grammar, and they should, but incorrect grammar won't shut this group down
(could get a few hurt though hypothetically :)). Discussing political, religious or racial beliefs can and would be used against
this site (and you) if the government ever chooses to prosecute. I believe that a few of us could name some sites (on the
right and left wing) that were brought down for there content or altered because of it.
Again right on the target IMHO. The way I see there is lot of things incorrect about GWB - you know the "nucular guy" (heck
why does my browser underline that word ;-)), and he is pretty high up the ladder (all meanings included). So much about
grammar ;-). I have no idea why discussing political views can be negative unless you profess some radical line that have
problems with logic and reasoning e.g. nazism. Even they should have a right of speech by the law although I think they are
crazy they should by the law have that right. A agree on racial issues...that is backward line of reasoning to discriminate
someone by his place of birth, skin color, gender etc. All the sites that I know that vanished into the air were drugs related so
I'm not amazed by that. Maybe fact that I'm chemist and that I surf to various chemistry related sites put only those into the
scope is reason that I can't mention any other site that had such fate.
I wonder some times about the names and posts here. Are the people posting them young, naive or working for the
authorities?
I have always wondered about nicknames around various forums. They are stupid sometimes. NBK had a custom to monitor
the weird nicks and ban the members sometimes including the stupid nicks in the crimes against the forum list ;-).

I can't believe we have multiculturalist morons on this forum.
I'm positive that there are Jackboots patrolling the posts on this forum. A good example would be the 'theoretical
revolutionary strategies' post, you think the Jackboots would allow discussion like that to go on unless they were
eavesdropping? To the public, we're extremists and radicals.
So yeah, we're "lab rats" in a sense.
I'd also be willing to bet that there are weapons manufacturers reading on here once in a while.
slarter September 26th, 2008, 11:09 PM

I'd also be willing to bet that there are weapons manufacturers reading on here once in a while.
I know that there are weapons testers that read here every day. ;)
TheSavageHyena September 27th, 2008, 03:00 AM

The boys in blue must be here just lurking at the least. There are advertisements in the paper on television for monitoring
'online crime'. It is part of the IT field and is fairly new.
http://www.earnmydegree.com/online-education/online-degrees/kaplan-university/criminal-justice-computer-crime-bachelors-
55.html
You'll examine the nature of computer crime and its possible impact on business and society, the investigation of computer
crime, the legal implications of monitoring crime in cyberspace, the protection of digital assets, and computer forensics.
Judging from the above posts, it looks like the consensus agrees we are all 'criminals', or at the very least criminally inclined.
It comes as no surprise, and we should all do our part to cover the tracks as best as we can. There are only 2 possible
outcomes I can think of, and any other that come to mind should be entertained as well.
Option 1-We all get active politically and restore our tarnished Constitutional Rights and Bill Of Rights. This will render us law
abiding citizens and not criminals, therefore we wouldn't need to subjet ourselves to any surveillance.
Option 2- We continue activities all the while trying our hardest to stay under the radar. The only result (at this rate) would be
more infringement on personal liberty and we would be either driven into recluse or casually lose interest in the E&W part of
life for fear of penalty.
A agree on racial issues...that is backward line of reasoning to discriminate someone by his place of birth, skin color, gender
etc.
In a perfect world maybe, however we will always have a list of races we like and dislike. It is human nature. With all the races
comes different points of view and conflict of interest. As much as I hate to admit it I have to agree with Kaydon on that one.
Nevertheless that topic is entirely subjective

Regardless of the view you possess on skin colour, genetics, politics, law, or any other bloody thing: your voice should not be
silenced, through law or through fear of the law.
I believe that political, religious or racial beliefs (words and slurs) should not be used here. The information that we exchange
should be totally on a "how to" basis with more of an emphasis on "hypothetical". Names, avatars, titles and signatures should
all be neutral and in english. I believe signatures are already required to be in english.
I certainly don't agree with that, and I don't know if there would be many here that would. The Forum is no longer a "how to"
on E&W but tailors for a wider range of topics, and that requires free speech.
Discussing political, religious or racial beliefs can and would be used against this site (and you) if the government ever
chooses to prosecute.
If the government ever chooses to prosecute, they would have to overcome the 1st Amendment and if that happens, I think
you would have more to worry about than just the forum being shut down.
...that makes you now a criminal for what you did or said yesterday.
Do you think that is going to stop there? Do you think that if they take that step, you will somehow be spared by the grace of
god? Your very membership here will put you on a list, and that alone will be enough.
Better to expect the worst and be pleasantly surprised than to expect the best and to be disappointed.
phrankinsteyn September 28th, 2008, 01:18 AM

Cobalt.45, That's a lot to explain but I will try and no offence taken. :)
I don't understand. Good LE? As in doing the right thing?:confused:
Big brother mentality and crime prevention?
Is it illegal to use "nigger", "kike", "polock", "rag head", etc? I really have no idea.
As far as I know, it is not illegal (yet in the USA as long as it is not associated with a "Hate Crime") to use a derogatory slur or
name but if a law should ever pass, and it is grand fathered in, you could be charged for statements made in the past.
How does making sarcastic remarks or judgements improve your position. I like to think that we are all educated here and
different than the masses. Do the scientific journals speak of radical political, religious or racial beliefs or make condescending
remarks towards it's members or writers? I believe that these type of remarks alienates members from providing information/
posting that may be valuable to all of us.
I don't see any type or form of censorship- self-imposed or otherwise- as valid. ALL post content is to be in English, AFAIK.
Except possibly quotes, maybe sigs and the odd Latin phrase type of thing. I fully support second-person and "SWIM"
recounting of tales.
I only believe in self censorship/restraint for the sake of this forum. On a forum like this political, religious or racial beliefs +
the "how to" info =? to the authorities.
There should be a consistent standard. Why would/should a signature be required in english but not the titles?
I'm unaware of this- both that "beliefs can and would...", etc, and sites brought down or altered because of these beliefs. I
would like to hear some opinions on this as well as supporting evidence. It's not so much that I doubt it, I would just like more
info!
Let's just say you got into a altercation with someone not of your race and race was not the cause of the altercation. And the
altercation lead to a serious injury or death (you came out the winner). If it can be proven that you are or were a member of a
radical political/racist/religious group or have written or said radical political/racist/religious things or promoted those ideas
chances are it would be used against you in a court of law by the prosecution.
SWIM had his US military training used against him at a trial along with the "words" he allegedly used before and during the
altercation.
For sites that were altered or shut down: The Army of God web site comes to mind, no longer links to the original army of god
manual. I remember a site called RaisetheFist.com. Owner/operator was charged with publishing bomb-making information on
the Internet with the knowledge or intent that it would be used to commit a federal crime of violence.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/raisethefist/
There are many ways for the government can bring you up on criminal charges; i.e. see raise the fist info; contributing to the
delinquency of an minor(?) and more then I could possibly imagine. Or you could be civilly sued (Paladin Press and the Hit
Man book comes to mind).
Also many sites that listed links for programs for removing copy protection on dvd's no longer do this. I believe 2600 was sued
over this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act
I don't follow- example of what?
What I mean by example is that when the Domestic Violence Offender Gun Ban was passed it included people that were
convicted in the past (grand fathered in). So if you were ever convicted or plead guilty to this charge (Domestic Violence) you
could no longer own/purchase or be in possession of a firearm. How the military gets around this is another discussion.:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_Violence_Offender_Gun_Ban
Any examples?
A few, but that would open up another can of worms :)
And now for a few meandering thoughts directed at no one in particular.

I knew when I posted (my previous post) it would stir up a little controversy and would be dissected (like I said in a previous
post- don't you just love that quote button) and misunderstood:)
You have to do what you think is right and then be prepared to answer for it. My intentions were to give all members here
something to think about as a security measure (I believe some of members here have not had charges brought against
them yet in a court of law). I have meet a lot of people (I am sure a few members here have too) who talk about what can
and can't be done to you (by the government) and what they are going do to them (the government) if they do. Most was/is
school boy bravado, when the fight comes they roll over or run away. Remember the prisons are full of people who know/knew
their rights and what the government could and could not do to them.
We have approx 33,331 (as of this writing) members and most are hardly or never heard from; maybe that should tell us
something?
To paraphrase a member here and add a little of my own to it: It may be a good thing that we have "morons" (on all sides of
the political/religious/race belief spectrum) on this forum. It may be our saving grace.

What do you suggest we do then Phrankinsteyn?
I would like to hear your suggestions about what we do, and your opinion on such things as "hate crime" and "Big Brother
Mentality".
Perhaps we are just taking you the wrong way.

I think the concern is that the combination of info about explosives and the occasional racially insensitive remark could be the
doom of any/all here at rs.org.
But we're an "equal opportunity" offender here- I've read remarks in re rednecks, ass-hats, left and right wingers, Jews,
Germans, French, English, Canucks, rag heads, Muslims, Christians, Blacks, the emotionally unstable, "foreigners" in
g e n e ral, every type and des cription of fuck-ups- the list goes on and on. For anyone to say that we re ag ains t (fill in the
blank w/your favorite group) would have a hard time proving it, IMO.:D
I'd just as soon use my own judgement and speak my mind. I wouldn't care much for such a sterile environment that nothing
should be said because it might offend some as yet unidentified entity that may or may not even exist.
And speaking of ass hats, is it just me or are those dudes on the Butterfingers commercial that plays on Adult Swim really
annoying?:D
Hinckleyforpresident September 28th, 2008, 04:47 AM

Unless the administration of roguesci (mega) were to openly say "Do illegal shit", I am very doubtful that the gov could take
us down. And even if he said something like that, they would have to prove that he meant it.
I'm sure they watch the Forum, but that's all they can really do. I would also be willing to bet good money that federal agents
have recreational accounts here, after all, even some of them must be decent fun loving people :p. The worst that they could
say is, "They spread information detailing potentially illegal activities." Fortunately, this is still protected by the first
amendment.

Most of that I couldn't care less about. I say what I like, and nothing can be done about that. Swallowing your pride, biting
your tongue, etc. are the acts of the cowardly.
As for "morons could be our saving grace," the more morons we have the less legitimate discussion on this forum becomes. I
already exist in a fantasy world ( the double-speak world of real life,) there's no reason for Rogue Sci to turn into another
fantasy land. This is one of the few forums with any kind of real information.
Piracy? As far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as a copyright. ;)

Alexires,
Here are a few other ideas. :)
Big Bother: I believe it is watching and will do what is beneficial for control or if an individual (working for Big Brother) his/her
career.
Hate crimes: do not, with intent, violate any of the elements of the Federal law/statute.
Doing the things I already mentioned in previous posts.
Must state they are over age of 18 for membership here. Contributing to the delinquency of minor laws come to mind. We all
are aware of "the save the children and good of the children" reasoning Big Brother/authorities have and use.
Teaching, without sarcasm or judgement (That is not to mean that they should not use the search engine first- but a little
spoon feeding maybe?), all the aspects of science. I believe we should discuss all matters of science and "how to". :) Maybe
then some members (remember the approx 33,331) would post more and not be afraid of being called names or being
flamed?
A report post button for members to report dangerous (bad science techniques/procedures or posts that appear
inappropriate). The moderator(s) could look at the post(s), make that decision, edit or delete posts that they find
questionable. I know this is already being done by the moderators to some extent. The moderators could still ban members
who refuse to learn (kewls?), incapable of learning or trouble makers. Remember we had to learn too. Our school teachers
(the good ones) taught us gradually and helped us along before throwing us out or using inappropriate language (If we don't
do the same then the pigs become the farmers- Orwell - Animal Farm). Sometimes is it necessary to ban members/people
but only after doing the above first.
Using self restraint and promoting only scientific/how to content. Is not self restraint/control considered one of the maxim's of
war, poker, intelligence and maturity:)? By doing this, we are not promoting censorship, sterilization or being cowardly we are
sticking to a formula. Our/my intent would be to look out for this site and Mega. There is no need for these things (self
censorship/restraint, what appears to be sterilization or cowardice) if we are the sole person to be held responsible for our
words or actions. That is not the case here. When it is just you (person posting) that will only be held responsible, talk, write
and act as brave as you (person posting) claim, think or believe you (person posting) are. :)

OR... we can just continue doing what has worked for RS for ~10 years. :rolleyes:
Roguesci is the Explosives and Weapons forum, not a science class. A strictly science forum more to your liking may be
sciencemadness.org.
If anyone would like to charge any member or Mega here with the crime of "contibuting to the deliquency of a minor", I dare
them. It would be their own lack of parenting that allowed the child to come to this site. Information is NOT only for persons 18
years of age or older. It is NOT regulated like tobacco or alcohol no matter how much the government would like it to be. If
you are a minor (under 18) and your parents do not wish you to know about things we discuss here, they should stop you from
coming here. It is the responsibility of the parents, not Mega's or the membership's responsibility at all. Furthermore, if the
occasional racial slur or whatever bothers you, you can always leave.
What it really boils down to is the right to free speech. The government hates it. We love it. Mega created a haven for it... It is
legal and good just the way it is.

How would you know if someone here reported us/this site to the authorities or the authorities chose to enforce that law
(delinquency of a minor) or any of the other laws they could come up with (considering we are read world wide and there is an
entity called INTERPOL) on their own? Then what would you/we be able do if you/we did find out who was responsible? All I
could think of would be to start a defense fund; assuming we would be able to get the info out and contact the members (site
not down or?). I have read in the NBK threads all the help he has received and is receiving from his friends.:rolleyes:
I appreciate the info on sciencemadness.org., I am aware of them. I like it here, that is way I responded to this thread to
begin with even if I may not agree with some of the members or posts here. :)
I realize it is up to Mega to make the final decisions concerning this forum. I hope that all my concerns are in vain, that I am
wrong and those that posted about freedom of speech (1st amendment) are right; but look what they have done to the
second amendment (the government).
-=HeX=- September 28th, 2008, 07:17 PM

Well, here is opinion on all that. Seeing as the site discusses so called illegal things like explosives and weapons, we are
going to be on a list even for just registering in the first place. I fully expect my door to be kicked in at any second and I am
always ready to go. When the jackboots come all they will see is the hastily dropped cigarette and the smashed computer
screen (So they cant read screen burns).
We are free men. Lets keep it that way for as long as possible.

Must state they are over age of 18 for membership here.Unverifiable, IMO.
a little spoon feedin g maybe?Oh, HELL n o.
Maybe then some members (remember the approx 33,331) would post more and not be afraid of being called names or
being flamed? If the thousands of would-be contributors are afraid of facing the scrutiny of the membership- in all its
sarca stic, flame-filled glory- then all I can say is, Oh well! Lo ok- anyone who co mes h ere can an d should expect to hea r all
about it if they fuck up. And they do hear all about it. The self-cleansing feature this creates is good, not bad.
A report post button for members to report...posts.... The moderator(s) could...edit or delete posts that they find
questionable. I know this is already being done by the moderators to some extent. ... Remember we had to learn too.
Already b eing d one to some e xtent? Its d o n e n e a rly d aily! Those who are lea rning shouldn t be posting in the first pla ce -
that s what the search button s for. If they need to ask after searching , then th ey do so, if approp riate. Same as always.
Our school teachers (the good ones) taught us gradually and helped us along before throwing us out or using inappropriate
lan g u a g e And that is all well and go od- IF you re still in the fourth grade! This is a serious hob by/vocation. There s NO ro o m
for hand-holding, coddling and spoon-feeding, for chrissake.
Using self restraint and promoting only scientific/how to content. ... Our/my intent would be to look out for this site and Mega.
There is no need for these things (self censorship/restraint, what appears to be sterilization or cowardice) if we are the sole
person to be held responsible for our words or actions. That is not the case here. When it is just you (person posting) that
will only be held responsible, talk, write and act as brave as you (person posting) claim, think or believe you (person
posting) are. :)You miss the point that this isn t a clinical, sterile cla ssro om. It s a dynamic, in-your-face forum NOT for the faint
of heart. And is very entertaining, to boot. Take all that away and turn this into a lecture hall, and watch the post count
evaporate How are you proposing to make e ach individ ual responsible for their posts any more than they already are?
OR... we can just continue doing what has worked for RS for ~10 years. :rolleyes:Amen.

Thank you, Fester and Cobalt. I couldn't have put it better myself.
The reason others and myself come here is because of the non-sterile environment. Like natural selection, the best
information is proven in a baptism of fire. Scrutinised by high school students, laymen, professors and LEO alike, if there is a
flaw in an idea it is likely to be found.
I come to The Forum because I know if I fuck up, someone will tell me. It might be hard to stomach for some and it can be
brutal sometimes, but at least you know that if your idea sucks, you will know about it.
I come to The Forum because I know I won't need to spend time explaining the basics over and over again. It is a place for
me to learn from those better than I, but I learn from research more than I do from them directly telling me. My lack of
knowledge spurs me on to find out more, not to be given the knowledge by those more knowledgeable than I.
I come to The Forum because of the freedom I have here. Here, amongst my Flamma Frater, people won't judge me because
of my hobby. They don't look at me and say "terrorist".
I come here because it is the way it is. If it were any other way, it would be just another Bombshock or TOTSE, and I would not
come here anymore.
Why do you come here, Phrankinsteyn? If you don't like the way The Forum operates, why do you come here?

Must state they are over age of 18 for membership here. Contributing to the delinquency of minor laws come to mind. We all
are aware of "the save the children and good of the children" reasoning Big Brother/authorities have and use.
Unless mega wants to get a fax machine and a dedicated line to take images of members drivers licenses, it will be
impossible to verify age. Age verification inherently has to be done on the honor system while online.
Teaching, without sarcasm or judgement (That is not to mean that they should not use the search engine first- but a little
spoon feeding maybe?), all the aspects of science.
Absolutely not. If they seem to have researched their question, and speak well, then yes; their question will probably be
answered. But we (mods) will ban every last trolling fucker who posts a "how doo i mak teh AP??/?" thread. It is far more rude
to ignore rules, and demand members take time out of their day than to simply UTSFE and do their own research.
I believe we should discuss all matters of science and "how to". :)
When a board moves to encompass everything in a very large field, it will eventually falter and die. If you want to talk
chemistry and E&W, come here. If you want to talk about something else, talk about it on the appropriate site. One of the
reasons that RS has been so successful is that it is very specialized. The members here talk about one thing, and they really
know their shit about it.
Maybe then some members (remember the approx 33,331) would post more and not be afraid of being called names or
being flamed?
Part of venturing out into the world (online, or in real life) involves accepting criticism and harsh words from other people. If
they say something foolish, they must accept responsibility for their actions.
A report post button for members to report dangerous (bad science techniques/procedures or posts that appear
inappropriate). The moderator(s) could look at the post(s), make that decision, edit or delete posts that they find
questionable. I know this is already being done by the moderators to some extent.
That's pretty much what the button is for. However, it is not used very often for whatever reason. When a post is reported, it is
dealt with - always - not most of the time.
The moderators could still ban members who refuse to learn (kewls?), incapable of learning or trouble makers. Remember we
had to learn too. Our school teachers (the good ones) taught us gradually and helped us along before throwing us out or
using inappropriate language (If we don't do the same then the pigs become the farmers- Orwell - Animal Farm). Sometimes
is it necessary to ban members/people but only after doing the above first.
If we took our time to hold every HE curious teenager's hand, we would never get anything else done. Either they can read the
answers by UTSFE, or they can go somewhere else (eg, TOTSE). IMO, only those with the patience and the brains to actually
follow the rules and research their own questions are worthy of this (RS) sort of knowledge.
EDIT:
Just saw what Cobalt had to say, it seems we think rather similarly about this :).

What concerns me even more than the government's dislike for freedom (of speech... or any kind), Phrank, is that there are
actually people on this Earth who rather than exercise their rights to the full extent of "legality" (:rolleyes:) would willingly
conform to how the government would 'like them to be' in order to sidestep any interest the government might take in the
statements or actions they make. This is not in the spirit of Roguesci at all. Not even close.
A right not exercised (much like a muscle) will atrophy. I hate it, but it seems to be true in this day and age. Even a right that
is "licensed" ceases to be a right at all. It has then become "permission". You know this from various government's views on
firearms and some country's Second Amendment, yes? (you mentioned it, so I bring it back up to light). We are all well into
this loss of rights, but that's another topic in and of itself, perhaps, like you said.
So the real question is: Are you going to exercise your rights NOW or merely wish you had the chance when you truly want or
feel the need to, but it may have since become illegal to do so all of a sudden? Now it is okay, later it may not be.
I'm truly at a loss for how some people say they want to keep their rights but will not lift a finger to keep them, let alone have
the courage to even USE them while they are well within the rights of the "law" to do just that... :confused: (Oh, how our
forefathers must spin in their graves at the population's collective cowardice while they risked their very lives for us to have
them!). And these same people come to RS? To learn? Or to apparently suck the teat of freedom with no real repercussions or
fear of retaliation by government agents, morelike. :mad:
If I am on a government list for being here and speaking freely here, so what. IMHO, it's better to die standing up than
kneeling down.
BTW, did you mention INTERPOL in your last post? You did. LOL! (that's rich. Thanks for the laugh). Yeah, they'll be at my
door anytime now for a misdemeanor charge of "contributing to delinquency". :rolleyes: Ed McMahon would sooner knock on
my door with a huge check in hand and cameras in tow or GWB for my free lesson on 'How to be Liked by Everyone'...

:confused: and laughing. Where do I start on these replies? I will try to make it short as I can. I see that this has gone way
off track with the dissection of my posts. When you dissect something and take it out of context you can put it back anyway
you want. I see political and religious leaders doing this often. :)
Cobalt.45 and Hinckleyforpresident,
I agree with you concerning age. It would only be an honor type system and that was what I meant when I posted it. Even with
a fax machine you could always use someone else's ID. It would just be a precaution and a argument that you could use in
the site's defense in a worse case scenario.
Hinckleyforpresident, I was not referring to the current report button. Apparently I should have explained my meaning and
reasoning better.
fester,
The remark about INTERPOL was not meant for us here in the USA. It was meant for the members overseas. Glad it gave you
a laugh though, you have given me a few in your posts. :)
Also contributing to the delinquency of an minor was part of the examples of charges and possible charges that could be
brought (along with the charges that was brought against RaisetheFist.com) as requested by Cobalt.45 "more info" (post
number 14) and also taken out on context by you.
I do agree with you about exercising our/your rights. I don't believe any of us here are afraid to exercise our rights. Otherwise
we would not be members here exchanging information or discussing this or other ideas.:)

I knew when I posted (my previous post) it would stir up a little controversy...
...and there you have it, just what you knew was coming. :) I'm sure the controversy you stirred did more good than harm,
so... :cool:
Glad we could oblige you.

I see that this has gone way off track with the dissection of my posts. When you dissect something and take it out of context
you can put it back anyway you want. I see political and religious leaders doing this often.Oh, it's on track, alright. Just not
heading in the direction you hoped for.
I see no instances what-so-ever where you were misquoted. ZERO.:confused:

Hell, your original post is right in this same thread for all to see. That you raise this non-issue is the very sort of tactic you
attribute to "political and religious leaders "!
Here is your statement, your own words: How would you know if someone here reported us/this site to the authorities or the
authorities chose to enforce that law (delinquency of a minor) or any of the other laws they could come up with (considering we
are read world wide and there is an entity called INTERPOL) on their own?Fester's reference to INTERPOL and contributing to
the delinquency of a minor (BTW, a charge you seem overly sensitive to and concerned with, IMO) was (to me) "humor by
irony", as it were. NOT taken out of context, IMO.
But in an all-business, info-only, no kidding around, politically correct version of rs.org, I suppose this would get you a
reprimand.:rolleyes:
So you planted a tree. You barked up it. Turns out to be the wrong tree.:p
Time to move on.

Cobalt.45,
In response to your last post #35.

I see no instances what-so-ever where you were misquoted. ZERO.:confused:
I did not say in my last post (#33) I was misquoted. I said "dissection" and "out of context".
The post (and I quote myself) "How would you know if someone here reported us/this site to the authorities or the authorities
chose to enforce that law (delinquency of a minor) or any of the other laws they could come up with (considering we are read
world wide and there is an entity called INTERPOL) on their own?" in post number 27 was a response and a question directed to
fester's post from post 26 when he stated "I dare them". I should have addressed the question directly to him.
But in an all-business, info-only, no kidding around, politically correct version of rs.org, I suppose this would get you a
reprimand.:rolleyes:Time to move on. Even in the water cooler? :p
You are right "Time to move on".:)
Thermiteisfun September 29th, 2008, 07:56 AM

it is my opinion that while we provide "information of evil intent" our apparent responsibility, attitude, and dedication to the
field will prevail.
I'm certain that if someone were to post here asking for help on a task that would threaten our freedom and harm others
unnecessarily the members would step up and use the pigs on them. I believe that protects us to some extant from
prosecution.
we are just having fun learning..... and I see nothing nothing wrong with that

it is my opinion that while we provide "information of evil intent" our apparent responsibility, attitude, and dedication to the
field will prevail.
I'm certain that if someone were to post here asking for help on a task that would threaten our freedom and harm others
unnecessarily the members would step up and use the pigs on them. I believe that protects us to some extant from
prosecution.
we are just having fun learning..... and I see nothing nothing wrong with that
I don't believe that information can have "intent", only the person those chooses to use the information.
As far as someone asking for help on a task that would harm others, that's what the Banned for Life sub-forum is for.

Phrankinsteyn, just to maybe help you understand why it may seem to you that your posts are being dissected, taken out of
context, or misunderstood: Have you ever considered NOT changing your posts so much after you you hit the Submit Reply
button?
Every single one of your posts in this thread have been editted at least once. I have personally witnessed you change two
posts of yours three times each already (for content, not syntax), and five out of six posts of yours have been editted up to
TWO HOURS after you posted them initially!
One almost has to wait two hours or break the rules and quote your entire post when replying to you just to pin you down to
having said any one thing at all. Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to sometimes clean up a post and change a few
mispelled words here and there but your use of the edit button is just plain irresponsible, if not an attempt at deliberately
misleading those not in agreement with you.
Vitalis, I could be wrong but I gathered that "information of evil intent" was dripping with sarcasm. ;)

I'm sure it was sarcastic, I just wanted to add my own thoughts on the subject. I, like so many others here, am sick to death
of certain people blaming knowledge for society's ills.

I'm sure it was sarcastic, I just wanted to add my own thoughts on the subject. I, like so many others here, am sick to death
of certain people blaming knowledge for society's ills.
Almost all of society's ills can be directly attributed to either ignorance or stupidity.
As for age, I know 15 year olds that are smart as hell and 40 year olds that couldn't pour piss from a boot with instructions
printed on the heel. Age has nothing to do with intelligence.

Festergrump,
The edit button is there for that reason, to edit your posts it is not irresponsible (that's your opinion) other wise Mega would
not have it or allow it. Maybe in my case it should expire faster. :) And after I edit my post(s) I still find misspelled words and
bad syntax(?). Good thing I can't go back now and edit the old ones for errors. LOL
I have not tried to mislead anyone, look at the responses :D. Show me where I changed content or tried to mislead. One way
to check if I deleted or altered content in my posts would be to check the time stamp of when I lasted edited the post and
then the time that it was responded to by a member. If I was quoted that content would be missing in my post. Or copy an
unedited post of mine, in its entirety, see if I changed anything thing after I was responded to by a member and forward it to
a moderator or call me on it.
I will continue to use the edit button up until the time it expires, so members may want to wait 2 hours before they respond.
:D I am always finding something in them (the posts).
I know you and I don't see eye to on most things but I appreciate your critique. I mean that sincerely (try not to breakout out
in tears though). :)

@phrank
How about you just READ your post before you post it, eh?
You should not ever be posting anything until you have proof read it and decide you like the way it is.

I think that is enough, gentlemen.
Even though there is little moderation in The Water Cooler the is still SOME moderation.
If you have a problem with someone, talk about it via PM.
Personally, I don't think the edit function should be used to massively edit your posts a reasonable time after you have
posted them; it should be used to correct grammatical and spelling errors as well as perhaps remove something
SCIENTIFICALLY erroneous that you mistakenly put, but shouldn't be used just because you changed your mind.
But that is my opinion.
Still, I think that the he said she said bullshit can stop now. Lets keep on topic in the spirit of the OP, yeah?
megalomania October 2nd, 2008, 05:19 AM

Ahh, a topic near and dear to my heart, and a question I have deliberated over, in all probability, more than anyone else. This
should not be a surprise considering the fate of the site affects me far more personally. I have arrived at a consensus of what
I believe are the reasons the site has lasted more than a decade online.
First, I am not political. I may rattle the saber abo ut corruption and inju stice n ow and then, but I don t in volve myself beyond
whatever news story h appens to cros s my desk . I don t advocate an ything one way or another violence wise, I don t dislike
any group or individ ual en ough to want to do any harm, a nd I don t encou rage anyone e lse to either.
Long ago I decided politics is too much a waste of my time when there is science to be learned. To be politically
knowledgeable and well informed you have to spend a lot of time studying what is going on. To me, this is time wasted when I
could be learning more chemistry. I am content to let other people worry about politicking, and I am resigned to the fact my
vote is almost worthless. I only vote because my local town government always has a tax increase on the ballot, and often
these are close races differing by 20-30 votes. I vote no on ALL taxes out of principle (spite is a better word). While I am
there I vote on whatever else is on the card.
Second , I do not in any way shape or form offer b o m b m a k i n g information on th e site. That stuff does no t interest me
because I am not out to blow anything up. Considering the proposed laws to date that do step on the 1st Amendment all have
a provision criminalizing teaching someone to make a bomb with the knowledge they will use it in the furtherance of a criminal
act, I would say it is goo my interests do not lie there.
I could not very well look my mother in the eye and tell her I teach people how to make bombs without feeling guilty, and
that feeling would be my conscious telling me I am doin g som ething wrong. I d on t have that feeling with what I am doing
now, and have always done with the site. The site was, and still is, built to get people interested in chemistry. Rogue Science is
a beneficial teaching tool, and that is something I can be proud of. We give serious discussion to topics that would not be
allowed on soccer mom sites, or would degenerate into idiotic chaos on anarchy sites.
For a good example of what not to do, consider the website Raise the Fist. That guy published bomb making material with the
express desire that it be used to kill Americans for some reason I have forgotten (probably Islamic). What actually got him
into trouble were the unregistered automatic weapons the fedgov found on his property when they raided him. Constitutionally,
RTF may have had a fighting chance on 1st amendment grounds, but the weapons charge trumps everything, so the closing of
the website never came under scrutiny.
If the fedgov hit me they would find no guns, drugs, explosives, or anything more sinister than my pile of microwave ovens
and a cat with way sharper claws than you would think possible. I think I underpaid my taxes by $7 back in 2000, and I tend
to drive 30mph in 25mph zones because that s a s slow as my car goes. I don t drink, I don t smoke, I do nt use drugs, I don t
buy teenag e h o o k e rs, I don t gamble, I don t travel, I don t use the phone, I don t have any magazine subscriptio ns, I don t
belong to a ny clubs or o rganizations, I don t blare loud music at 4AM, I don t have people coming and going at odd hours,
and I never answer emails asking about weapons.
My parents, on the other hand, are the real criminals. They have the audacity to actually save up for something before they
buy it, an d then the fien ds pay in actual cash mone y! Cas h, for God s sake, who does that I ask you? Criminal scum, that s
who! No credit cards, n o mortgage, no car paym ents Its u nnatural and u n-American. Who k nows what terrorist schemes they
are con co cting with the money they d on t spend on interest, fees, fin es, an d penalties? It s p eople like them, paying their
bills on time, in full, that ruined those nice banks. You see, I never had a chance turning out the way I did.
There you have it folks, a few good reason why we still stand. I suppose it must be a public relations disaster to convince the
public I am some dangerous criminal writing a website using mostly fedgov published data as my source material. That, and
the site would be 100 times more popular than it is now if it got shut down. They would have to argue the 1st amendment
merits of their actions, and by God as my witness that is a fight I would gladly spend every ounce of my money and energy
fighting. The chance to ruin your life in such a spectacular fashion is not something I could pass up, especially if it means
dragging the fedgov into the harsh glare of the public.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > I'm pissed off with most of the people here.
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slarter September 27th, 2008, 12:04 AM

This is my first thread and it irks me that it has to be about me being pissed off at the people here.
I just received a letter from NBK and so far only FOUR people, yes that's right, only four people from here have written him. :mad: WTF people? Our brother is incarcerated in
a foreign jail and asks only for us to write him.
Mega posted his address on the 20th of February and only FOUR people have taken the time to write him. :mad: I know many here are paranoid (God knows I am) but shit
people, put a bogus return address on it and tell him not to write back. I can tell you that when you are away from home for an indefinite amount of time a single letter means
the entire world to you. I spent five years deployed overseas and looked forward to mail call more than payday. Well, guess what folks, NBK right now has neither to look
forward to.
As of right now I will write him at least twice a month and plan to send him enough money each month to cover his commissary expenses and then some, so don't worry about
sending money. Just write him a short letter. Don't worry about what to write as he just wants conversation and he is smart enough to talk about anything. Art will take the
time to write you back and his letters are well written, articulate and humorous. :cool:
For those that have written, please continue to do so. :) For those that haven't, please do.
[\Rant Off]
hickey September 27th, 2008, 05:42 PM

I think writing to a former notorious moderator is a personal preference and not mandatory for every roguesci forum member.
:p

I think writing to a former notorious moderator is a personal preference and not mandatory for every roguesci forum member.
:p
NBK did say "Maybe I'd be more popular if I hadn't been so efficient at my job, eh?" :p
Still, with 33,000 plus members, I'd expect more to write.
totenkov September 27th, 2008, 09:33 PM

Those who are available, and see a need on some moral level may do so whenever they wish.
It is not mandatory, nor is it our job to send letters to a man 100% of us will never meet.
Making a separate thread to express your emotions was rather childish, there is an entire forum dedicated to NBK. I am currently in the process of writing a letter as a matter
of fact. Understand that not all of us are dedicated to the happenings of NBK's life, as unfortunate as they are. If specific members have thoroughly enjoyed and learned from
NBK's posts here, and want to thank him, that is excellent, but once again, by no means is it our duty.

If you have words of support for NBK, post them here for the moment until we work out a more permanent solution.
Obviously, don't say anything that you don't want others to read.
rangegal September 28th, 2008, 11:48 PM

I've been searching lately for the NBK thread, it seams to have come and gone in the past with the forum updates and such. But I just can't seem to find it. I would write him if
I still had the copy of his address. If someone who does contact him would be kind enough to post his prison address or point me in the right direction and correct my mistake
of not being able to find it it would be much appreciated. I think I'll send him a STAPLES bound printout of the book on that www.books-of-gabriel.net website.
Mr Science September 28th, 2008, 11:55 PM

I just can't seem to find it.
http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=5792
Page 1, first post.
rangegal September 29th, 2008, 12:57 AM

Thank you very much. I don't really understand why I didn't find it when I searched. I searched the forum and Google first with "Terrible News"- what I remember the title of
the thread to be. Then I related terms, like nbk, prison, murder, and some other stuff. I'll look through that thread and find his adress. I remember something about NBK's
prison address changing. Did that ever happen?
Vitalis October 1st, 2008, 11:13 PM

Of course you have a right to be pissed off at anyone for any reason, but this topic is stupid. NBK was obviously one of if not the most important contributer to these forums,
but you have no right to insist that we send him anything.
Some of us have our own problems right now and we never really met the guy. Also if we want a reply to make sure he received our letter, wouldn't we have a letter from a
Canadian Prison coming to us? A lot of us don't like to attract that type of attention.
If you're NBK's new guardian angel, go ahead and tell him I hope he is freed and in the mean time doing well, but I'm not sending mail to prison.
This is my first thread and it irks me that it has to be about me being pissed off at the people here.
I just received a letter from NBK and so far only FOUR people, yes that's right, only four people from here have written him. :mad: WTF people? Our brother is incarcerated in
a foreign jail and asks only for us to write him.
For those that have written, please continue to do so. :) For those that haven't, please do.
Vitalis October 8th, 2008, 10:53 AM

Think about that number though, out of those 33,000 plus members, how many even post once? Hell, most of them probably don't even come here anymore.
Still, with 33,000 plus members, I'd expect more to write.
iHME October 8th, 2008, 06:08 PM

I have always wondered about the amount of ACTIVE forum members, those who have logged in in the last month or so.
How many are there? If you know at all.

I'd bet that not 1% of the current membership actually post. Surely less than 5%, but that's just a guess.
If you look at the number of "views" an active topic receives to the actual number of replies, you will see an even larger discrepancy between the two (guests).
3287 October 8th, 2008, 09:39 PM

Truthfully, I have not written - even though I've considered it - for two reasons.
One, I'm new and never really interacted with him.
Two, as much as he did contribute - and that's a ton, I can't slight him for that one bit - I don't really agree with a lot of the views he holds. They bother me. While I'll happily
fight to protect his right to believe and say anything he wants, I don't think I'd have an easy time corresponding with him.
Maybe I'm wrong. What do the senior members think?

You need to separate the man from his politics, IMO.
Whenever there's opinions rather than black and white truths like with (for the most part) mathematics or chemistry, there's always room for (mis)interpretation.
But no one doubts his sincerity.
megalomania October 9th, 2008, 01:59 AM

If you don't post, you don't need to log in, and if you don't log in, your status is not updated. Since you can read almost everything publicly, not everyone logs in. I do not
reveal site statistics for security reasons, but I can say it is quite a bit more than 1%. Thread views re not reliable since they feature only started a few years ago, and the
counter table has crashed and been reset several times in the last couple of years alone. I have also disabled "last active" calculations to discourage something security related.
The site certainly gets hammered enough, but there is more to Rogue Science than The Forum. The gist is, the volume of traffic to the site is not commensurate with the
number of letters nbk has received. This is not anything against nbk, but I would not expect thousands of people to write to a guy they never met, in prison, if they never read
the threads he was most active in.
Besides, this is EXACTLY when he predicted would happen. Actually, he spoke with certainty because he has seen it happen before.
Wallybanger October 29th, 2008, 07:43 AM

HHHmmm, can he take visitors? I don't write my own grandparents but I could probably drop by to pay him a visit next time I'm in Vancouver. He certainly sounds like an
interesting person... I don't even know if I was a member at the time he was detained.
slarter October 30th, 2008, 12:16 AM

I received another letter today from NBK. He is doing okay and is awaiting deportation.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > The truth about islam .
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rangegal S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2008, 04:27 PM

T h o u g h t s o m e of you guys m ight be interested in the book a person I know is writing about the true nature of what the m e d i a
calls a "peacefull religion".
www.books-of-gabriel.net
Only the first book is com pleted so far, the others are com i n g s o o n . H e ' s p u t t h e m on the web to spread the knowledge as
m uch as he can until he finds a publisher.
TheSavageHyena S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2008, 04:55 PM

That is a very inform ative link and it is good to see m any people are aware of the many groups that threaten perso nal liberty.
It isn't the first or the last religion to indicate that non-believers are subordinate.
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.htm l
That link is one of m any and the scripture is unaltered as far as I know. I find these rem arks exce ptionally chilling and
threatening due to their preva lence here in my city.
"Sanhedrin 5 7a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work."-O .K. to Cheat Non-Jews
"Baba Kam m a 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite go res an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores
an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."-Jews Have Superior Legal Sta tus
The latter is very prevalent in Canadian politics and other countries as well.
Other excerp ts that I hope were falsified are beyond retarded.
"Sanhedrin 5 5b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old)."
...true nature of what the m edia calls a "peacefull religion".
The media always portrays this religion as 'victim ized' but we all know it ain't so ;)
hickey S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2008, 05:34 PM

The media always portrays this religion as 'victim ized' but we all know it ain't so
They are just imitating what the Jews did in the past - using the holocaust issue.. :p
joffe S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2008, 05:55 PM

This is, in m y humble opinion, just as m uch a cultural issue. Perhaps even m ore than a religious o n e . I s p e n t s o m e tim e in
Lebanon in a "peace keeping" role in the early eighties, and based on that experience, I reached the inevitable conclusion that
a raghead is a raghead, regardless of what he believes in. As much as I disliked the Iranian supported a**holes, probably the
bigg e s t a * * h o l e s o f t h e m all were the Shin Bet controlled Christian m ilitias (read gangs) with the Shin Bet ranging suprem e.
Hirudinea S e p t e m b e r 2 8th, 2008, 03:32 PM

The tragedy is that Islam is nothing m ore than a cult, d ream t up by a bandit, con m an, that had a n army and historically
propetious m oment behind it, and what should have died in the desert spread over the world and infected a billion people! Oh
for an obedient Eleph ant!
http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Year_of_the_Elephant
rangegal Novem ber 5th, 2008, 08:27 PM

HAHA! I guess "gabriel" has been viewing the forum. Not surprising, birds of a feather flock together ya know. He m a k e s a
reference to "sheeple " on his front page, which is now pretty long. Be sure to check it out. He need s a publisher apparently. If
a n y b o d y k n o ws a good one who would handle his work you should em ail him .
Jome skanish Novem ber 6th, 2008, 10:11 AM

The tragedy is that Islam is nothing m ore than a cult, d ream t up by a bandit, con m an, that had a n army and historically
propetious m oment behind it, and what should have died in the desert spread over the world and infected a billion people! Oh
for an obedient Eleph ant!
http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Year_of_the_Elephant
"Dre a m e d u p " ? O b v i o u s l y , a l l r e l i g i o n s a r e d r e a m e d u p f a i r y t a l e s d e s i g n e d t o p a cify the people to accept their lot, and to turn
the average individual into a sheep. All religion s are born of wishful thinking,, raised by liars and survive by ignorance alone.
T h e s a m e g o e s f o r m ost political ideologies. "see the world our way and refuse to even co nsider anyhing else, and we'll usher
a future land of m i l k a n d h o n e y . "
C o m m u n i s m - n o m o re capita lism , and everyone will autom atically be happy.

Libertarianism - no m ore economic regulations, and everyone will be hap py.
W ell, in real life, both the state and its politicians as well as the rich capitalists on ly think of their o wn good, and if it benefits
the elite, your freedom s and your m oney will cease to e xist, no m atter who this elite m igh t be....
Don't be fooled by ideology or religion, fight for what benefits YOURSELF.

tmp Novem ber 6th, 2008, 11:38 PM

I was briefly exposed to this religion in the 90s. Of course they attem p t e d t o
convert m e. There we re many reasons they weren't successful. C hief am o n g
them was that all non-Morm o n s a r e g o i n g t o H e l l . T h i s t h e s a m e shit tha t a
nun told m y m other back in the 40s when she attended Catholic school. She
was told that her grandmother was going to Hell because she wa s Methodist.
My great-aunt, who raised my mother, had a few choice words fo r that nu n -
"Go shit in your hat and wear it !" :D

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > $700B Bailout Plan Fails!
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Mr Science September 29th, 2008, 05:32 PM

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?cnn=yes
I don't know if anyone was watching CNN, but you could visually see it dropping every few seconds it updated.
http://img241.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dowtumblechart2vn4.jpghttp://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1112/dowtumblechart2vn4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Today, it fell nearly 778 points (-6.98%), making this the biggest drop ever.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc307/Infinite411/ouch.jpg

I saw it coming before they even announced it, a "bail out" - "plan," a 'plan' that lacks any kind of planning. I also saw failure. How come I'm not on Wall Street? Oh.. it's
cause I'm not a Jew.
Anyway... Yeah, now would be the time to stock a little on non-perishable food items. Sugar is going to ROCKET in price. We're going to wind up like Zimbabwe.....
(exaggeration, obviously.. but you get my point)

Looking at that graph, I thought "That's not so bad"....until I realised it was in one day.
Keep this in perspective though. Even though it might have been the biggest drop ever, it doesn't even make it into the top 10 for % drop.
Still, hope your BOBs are ready and perhaps it might be worth converting that excess cash you have at home into solid gold.
As soon as someone mentioned the phrase "$700B Bailout Plan" it was doomed to fail. It doesn't make people feel secure. It make people think the situation is fucked because
the FedGov needs to intervene......
If you ever wondered about the sheeple mentality, there is nothing that stinks of its herd mentality weakness than the share market.
PYRO500 September 29th, 2008, 09:30 PM

I saw this coming 3 years ago (as a locksmith) with customers more and more frequently re-keying their rental properties to the point where it is both constant and a nuisance
for me. I Decided to keep my job that demand for increases when the economy falls... I have chosen now to give much of my spare $$$ to my broker :-D . I am waiting for
that rock bottom where we start to go up again.... Personally I would be very very happy to see it plummet even further, I can buy more stock and it IS going to go up again,
people panic and pull their cash out.. what fools...

I believe they will come up with and pass another (plan) bill. To much is at stake for them (capitalists, politicians and the world economy). It's a smoke screen on their part to
get the people in a panic.
But it never hurts to have a BOB and supplies. :)
Hirudinea September 30th, 2008, 04:20 PM

Well what can I say, I'm brushing up on my 30s tunes and packing a bindle. ;) Really we'll have to wait and see, but stocking up on essentials (5.56 and 7.62) would be a
good idea.
Anyway... Yeah, now would be the time to stock a little on non-perishable food items. Sugar is going to ROCKET in price. We're going to wind up like Zimbabwe.....
(exaggeration, obviously.. but you get my point)
Hey your economy is going down the tank and your going to have a black president, whats the difference?

The difference is the extreme difference.. Also, we're not going to have Obama as president.
The problem with the plan was that it did nothing to help the working class and a Capitalist economy cannot survive without the working middle class. Without a middle class,
you have no economy. It's not surprising, our debt.. we've been borrowing money from other countries for decades. On top of that, our dollar isn't worth shit anymore. It used
to be that if you had $5, you were loaded.. now $100 isn't even considered pocket change.
NAFTA is a huge issue as well and is a contributing factor.
TheSavageHyena September 30th, 2008, 06:27 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jMRt1AwBDk&eurl=http://www.campaignforliberty.com/
That link is probably the only good thing that has ever come out of the House during this entire ordeal. And you would think that after he (and many other people) predicted
this mess that people would finally wake up and listen to him. Instead the masses still tune into the boob tube and continue to wonder which retarded douche to vote for.
How come I'm not on Wall Street? Oh.. it's cause I'm not a Jew.
That is very true. It is not hard to see that the majority of this economic problem is a direct result of money mismanagement. It is a lot of bullshit that can be completely
obliterated if we got the fedgov the hell out of our business and our businesses.
Bugger October 1st, 2008, 07:15 PM

The story about the rejection of the bailout, and the resulting biggest-ever fall on Wall $treet, along with the failures and takeovers of another large U$ bank and of four
European banks, has been all through the news media here in New Zealand, since the vote was announced on the morning of Sept. 30th NZ time. It was defeated in the
Hou$e Of Repre$entative$ by about 225 votes to 208, with most of the opposition being from the Republican minority. I wonder if we will again see stockbrokers in pin-striped
suits jumping from the tops of Manhattan skyscrapers, like what happened after the October 1929 crash.
You should look carefully at the REASONS WHY so many Republican$ in the Hou$e, against Bu$h's recommendation, rejected the $700 billion Bill. I suspect that the REAL
reason was the ban in the Bill on excessive remuneration - "golden parachute$" - for failed executives in the firms which are to be bailed out. Many of these failed executives
are "buddies" of Republican Congre$$people, and helped finance their election campaigns. Of course, some Democrats rejected it because of the Bill's containing little or no
help for financially-stressed mortgagor home-owners, mostly ordinary workers, who are in danger of foreclo$ure, and who would be only indirectly helped by the bailout
through its tending to keep intere$t rates down.
But the $enate is just now debating an amended form of the Bailout Bill, and I understand that their vote is expected to pass it in about 2 hours' time.
Hinckleyforpresident October 1st, 2008, 09:56 PM
I have attached a PDF of the current version of the bailout bill. It is being debated in the senate right now.
Kaydon October 2nd, 2008, 12:15 AM

I get a damaged file error with the attachment.
Vitalis October 2nd, 2008, 01:30 AM

The bailout needs to fail. Bad idea; just let the crash come now and we can weather the storm and rebuild.
Most people need to lose their jobs and have to scrounge for food to awaken them to the fact that they need to DO something to fix this mess.
I welcome it with open arms.
Alexires October 2nd, 2008, 02:31 AM

Or loaded arms, as the case might be...
megalomania October 2nd, 2008, 03:02 AM

Great change happens only after a great crisis. I do not want to see the American people reduced to the despair and hopelessness of hunger, disease, unemployment, and
rampant poverty. However, this could serve as the catalyst to smash the greedy and corrupt fedgov system that let this happen.
Soon it may be time for the jackbooted fedgov neo-gestapo thugs to stand side by side next to the designer loafers of bankers and the powers that be... Side by side, gently
swaying in the breeze that weaves through the knarled branches of the hanging tree where their bloated corpses serve as a feast to carrion birds.
Let the tattered shreads of once quality designer suits enveloping the skelital remains of senators still hanging from the marble columns of the capital building serve as the
banner of the revolution. A reminder to those who strip us of our freedoms, you will be stripped of your flesh.
The board rooms will be awash in blood, the powerful elite struck down mid-meeting, their fists still clenched around a crimson streaked wad of cash their scheming made
worthless.
The history of revolution is always the same: The middle class rises up, kills the powerful elite, instills themselves as the new power elite, and leaves the poor right where they
are. Things may not be bad enough yet to incite the people into lynching mobs, but it could go that way soon enough. There are not enough cops to stop us all from smashing
their surveilance cameras. They do not have enough bullets to stop us from swarming over their barracades. Their shiny badges will offer little protection against the hands that
clasp around their corrupt necks. The good cops will fade away, defeated, and the elite will be left to fend for themselves. They will hang for their role in bankrupting our
nation.

Or loaded arms, as the case might be...
Haha, yes, that is definitely part of it.
There really is no hope for our system though. We haven't had real money in a long time, only virtual money.
The United States of America has been dead for a while, but only now are people beginning to smell the decay...
ChippedHammer October 4th, 2008, 09:35 AM

Looks like it has been passed, I really feel sorry for the average Joe who just got royally fucked over.
http://bayimg.com/image/halgpaabf.jpg
Hirudinea October 5th, 2008, 09:01 PM

Great change happens only after a great crisis. I do not want to see the American people reduced to the despair and hopelessness of hunger, disease, unemployment, and
rampant poverty. However, this could serve as the catalyst to smash the greedy and corrupt fedgov system that let this happen.
Which is exactly the bailout was, finally passed, if the system fails they will be put up against the wall so the system CAN'T fail.
Hitech_Hillbilly October 6th, 2008, 02:54 PM

It's not a Bail Out... it's a raping. Those in power are using anything they can as an excuse to get as much as they can looting the coffers before it's gets bad enough for us to
rise up and take back control through whatever means are necessary. By that time, they will all be gone, in some other country, and the puppets will be left hanging for their
crimes.
Can you tell how happy I am about the "Bail Out". And have you seen how the market continues to plummet. Just more proof it wasn't meant to help anything, just line their
fucking pockets.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Fascism makes taxpayers responsible to private enterprise, because the State pays for the blunders of private enterprise... Profit is private and individual. Loss is public and
social."
Historian Gaetano Salvemini
Alexires October 8th, 2008, 06:43 AM

There hasn't been much said about how the financial institutions are going to repay the government.
Nothing like having absolute control over the finances to promote democracy, eh?
Cobalt.45 October 8th, 2008, 07:19 AM

The fucking bill passed- after yet MORE pork was tacked on! Utter fucking larceny.
Vitalis October 8th, 2008, 08:53 AM

Yea, these "Bailouts" are plain and simple theft. They are never meant to help Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Taxpayer. Our handlers don't give a flip about us.
They know most people don't have the balls to fight back (hopefully when things get really bad, they will be proven wrong).
Now the Fed orders an emergency cut of half a point as the financial crisis deepens in U.S. and abroad. This is not getting any better before it gets MUCH worse, the longer it is
hidden and put off, the worse the inevitable crash will be.
Bad news, worldwide.

slarter October 8th, 2008, 12:29 PM

Did you see the boondoggle that AIG pulled off? They sent their top management to a resort in SoCal just days after being bailed out for $85+ BILLION U.S. The entire thing
was R&R only and cost $440,000 U.S.
WTF?
Vitalis October 8th, 2008, 12:35 PM

That's what they do best, it's good to know my tax money is hard at work.

A good little presentation:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3047/2921978491_ee7318951c.jpg
http://flickr.com/photos/26810211@N06/2921978491/sizes/m/
Who would have thought that beer could be a good investment on something else than hangover :p
Neomagic does not get my sympathy, they make shitty GPU's, one of my computers has one, even age of empires 1 on minimum settings lags :mad:
No wonder they are fucked now.

iHME, I think your tagline gets it right - it's a catastrophic success.
Pumping that much money over to China is just silly. Anyone know how the banks over there are getting on? Or in Russia?

iHME, I think your tagline gets it right - it's a catastrophic success.
Pumping that much money over to China is just silly. Anyone know how the banks over there are getting on? Or in Russia?
I've heard that China has a shitload of money, their banks are solvent, do to the low value of the Chinese Yuan and the fact that everything is made in China, trade surplus
anyone, and that China might start buying up U.S. companies, banks, and resources for a song, so they're doing fine, hope you like Chinese food because it seems China will
soon be in a position to buy the West! (How to I translate this into Big5?)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Does anybody like this
artwork?
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View Full Version : Does anybody like this artwork?
kepiblanc October 2nd, 2008, 08:13 AM

I just wanted to get some feedback on this campaign poster parody here. I rather like it myself. :p
hatal October 2nd, 2008, 08:41 AM

Im not sure what it wants to say. Except the "nope"/NO on Obama.
Whats with the hammer and the sickle. Did he make any like-commie remarks lately or is this suppose to have some historic
relevance?

Obama's theme is supposed to be "Hope" for America. Obama also happens to be a Marxist sleazebag.
kepiblanc October 2nd, 2008, 09:50 AM

Did he make any like-commie remarks lately or is this suppose to have some historic relevance?
Lately? There's a Cuban flag with a picture of Communist punk (and murderer) Che Guevara on the wall of his Houston
campaign office. It's been there for at least the past nine months. :eek:
festergrump October 2nd, 2008, 10:09 AM

Great for printing out as targets, I guess.
Mr Science October 2nd, 2008, 11:35 AM

Moved to The Water Cooler.
hatal October 2nd, 2008, 01:56 PM

Lately? There's a Cuban flag with a picture of Communist punk (and murderer) Che Guevara on the wall of his Houston
campaign office. It's been there for at least the past nine months. :eek:
OK. Im not THAT familiar with american politics.
I dont even know how old McCain is. 1000? :D
phrankinsteyn October 2nd, 2008, 04:22 PM

Politicians are politicians are politicians.........
But remember they called social security, the 40 hour work week and overtime pay communist/socialist too (USA). :)
kepiblanc October 2nd, 2008, 06:14 PM

Both Barack Obama and Joe Biden are both big time advocates of all sorts draconian anti-gun laws and restrictions. Just don't
try to tell the public about all this with television commercials like the NRA has been doing lately though -
http://www.gunbanobama.com/Default.aspx?NavGuid=430d7335-d158-44f5-aab6-bb7d1226f3fa
or the Obama people will attempt to intimidate you with letters like these -
http://www.democrats.org/page/speakout/stopthenra?js=true
When the form is filled out with the pertinent personal details, the letter looks something like this:
"Dear Sir or Madam,
Please stop broadcasting the misleading and phony NRA attack ad against Barack Obama on your stations.
Time and again, Barack Obama has defended the right to bear arms created by the Constitution. However, this shameful ad
misrepresents Barack s p osition on illegal guns an d tries to s ca re voters with incorrect information about h is stance on the
issue.
This NRA ad is a lie, and is not fit for public broadcast.
The public airwaves are no place for this kind of hateful and misleading trash. I hope you will stop broadcasting this deceptive
ad on your station and prevent the level of discourse to be lowered by the lies it presents.
Please take this ad off the air at once."
While I don't know about the rest of you, this all seems rather quite Marxist/Communist/Socialist to me. :eek:
phrankinsteyn October 2nd, 2008, 06:27 PM
kepiblanc,
It has always been the same to me since 1968 and history tells us the same. :)
Alexires October 2nd, 2008, 10:49 PM

See, if that letter was actually true, they would be suing people for defamation, not just sending them letters that don't mean
shit.
Here is what that letter sounds like to me:
"Dear Sir or Madam,
Please stop saying nasty things about me.
I've said I only want to take big guns away from everyone, not all guns. Sling shots are ok.
We don't want the public to hear our lies.
I'll tell the teacher on you!!!."
kepiblanc October 2nd, 2008, 11:59 PM

OK. Im not THAT familiar with american politics.
I dont even know how old McCain is. 1000? :D
Actually, John McCain is just 72, which is 12 years younger than Jimmy Carter's age of 84, and 10 years younger than Jimmy
Carter's commie comrade Fidel Castro's age of 82. :p
TheSavageHyena October 5th, 2008, 10:18 PM

http://www.jewtube.com/video/1378/ISRAELIS-FOR-OBAMA
^^
That is perhaps one of the greatest reasons why he shouldn't win. Does it (our vote) even matter? I mean in North American
politics especially. It seems so many are sleeping at their desks not caring to do the slightest amount of research. How are so
many unaware that our land is slowly being turned into a free range penitentiary?
I apologize in advance for my venting and getting slightly O/T. But what I am getting to is that I think (rather know) our
freedoms are being chipped away in ever larger chunks. It seems the chance of fighting this on a level playing field has long
since passed us.
TreverSlyFox October 13th, 2008, 10:52 AM

The biggest funny haha with Obama is the Black "African-American" thing. Obama is 6% black, 46% Arab, 48% white. He has
NOTHING in common with African-American blacks in the U.S. other than his people's history in Kenya was RAIDING black
villages and selling the captives into slavery for the British and the U.S. market.
tmp October 13th, 2008, 10:08 PM

Policy is everything to me when I cast a vote. I won't vote for any candidate
who advocates gun control and/or higher taxes. Obama has already stated
his desire to re-implement the infamous Assault Weapons Ban Of 1994. He
also talks about raising taxes against the rich although such increases would
eventually come out of the hides of the middle-class and working poor as
prices are increased to offset said tax increase. My vote will be for McCain.
IMHO, the best way to vote is to select the issue(s) most important to you
and cast your vote accordingly.
I've heard reasons to vote for or against a candidate based on issues such as
race, religion, income level, etc. Personally, the most ridiculous example was
my stepsister who voted for Bill Clinton over George H.W. Bush in the 1992
election because she thought Clinton was more "handsome" than Bush ! This
is an example of sheeple being herded into polling booths. Some politicians
count on this exact brand of stupidity !
kepiblanc October 15th, 2008, 03:34 AM

Policy is everything to me when I cast a vote. I won't vote for any candidate
who advocates gun control and/or higher taxes. Obama has already stated
his desire to re-implement the infamous Assault Weapons Ban Of 1994.
Obama won't just settle for a re-implementation of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban - he'll likely want an expanded version of
it. This expanded version could mean that any semi-automatic firearm, whether it be a pistol, rifle, or shotgun, which can
accept a detachable box magazine, will thereby be considered an "assault weapon" under the guise of this law, therefore
falling under the ban on such firearms. This type of on-the-fly revisionism is how the city council of Washington, DC, initially
defined all semi-automatic pistols as "machine guns", thereby making them illegal to possess, when writing their provisional
new gun laws after the Supreme Court ruled that DC's 32-year-old ban on handguns was unconstitutional in the DC versus
Heller decision last June.
Obama will likely also call his new and expanded version of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban a "reasonable restriction" on
American's second amendment rights, and that such a restriction is allowable under the Supreme Court's Heller Decision. He'll
probably even go so far as to give some sort of lame rationalization that a hunter doesn't need an AK-47 to shoot deer. Bill
Clinton made comments such as this back in 1994 from what I can recall. :mad:
FreeLancer October 15th, 2008, 02:40 PM

Obama will likely also call his new and expanded version of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban a "reasonable restriction" on
American's second amendment rights, and that such a restriction is allowable under the Supreme Court's Heller Decision. He'll
probably even go so far as to give some sort of lame rationalization that a hunter doesn't need an AK-47 to shoot deer. Bill
Clinton made comments such as this back in 1994 from what I can recall. :mad:
And you're telling me that's not true? I don't get what you American folk have with weapons. Why make something that kill
people? Why not make something to help them?

From the October 14, 2008 of a local free paper in Baltimore, Maryland:
Link: http://ads.bthesite.com/BTheSite.asp?page_name=Page13.swf&Date=Tuesday
If the link expires, bottom-left of page:
GUN VIOLENCE PREVENTION GROUP BACKS OBAMA

Barack Obama and Joe Biden won the endorsement Monday of the
Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. The group is named after
Jim Brady, the press secretary to former President Reagan, who was
wounded by a gunman who tried to assassinate Reagan in 1981. {AP}
If John McCain is considered unfriendly to gun owners, then Obama

is outright hostile by comparison. Bill Clinton blamed gun owners for
the 1994 Democratic loss in Congress. He also blamed them for the
defeat of Al Gore in 2000. Let's hope he's right and Obama will get to
make the same claim. :D
Hinckleyforpresident October 15th, 2008, 05:18 PM

Weapons can help people. By this I mean that weapons can be used to liberate the oppressed from tyrannical governments. If
you don't believe me, take a look at history.
On the smaller scale, weapons are used for defensive purposes. Are you telling me that you would rather give criminals the
advantage of catching you unarmed? How about if some gang member breaks into your house in a home invasion - just trying
to get his street-cred - and kills your whole family? Think you shouldn't be able to lay that mother fucker out? Or how about if
a crackhead sticks a pistol in your face demanding more after you give him your wallet? Are you really willing to give up the
right to fight back?
Working on helping people is great, but remember that humans are naturally greedy, mean, selfish, desperate creatures who
will step all over their brothers in the name of success. Being ready to defend against these traits is a natural born right.
slarter October 15th, 2008, 07:51 PM

I like this one too. :)
sbovisjb1 October 16th, 2008, 03:44 AM

McCain is a disaster. Obama is "flopper" FESA anyone. Of the two McCain is worse. *Sigh* both are not gun friendly.

Stop quoting whole posts
Look at Europe. You're being paranoid, and humans arn't naturally greedy, mean, selfish ... It's MONEY that makes us those
monsters, my moto is: no money - no problem
And by the way I can actually say that comming from a not-so-poor-family if you know what I meen. It's money that corrupts
and it's weapons that help the criminals. If a guy pressed a gun on my face I'd probably panic like anyone else, but if I didn't,
then I'd beat the heck out of him BUT not kill him.
ExistenceGuest October 17th, 2008, 01:57 AM

Politicians are politicians, not more than that
Skean Dhu October 18th, 2008, 12:34 AM

Just remember when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
And the second ammendment was NEVER about hunting. It was about giving the we the people the means to keep
government in check, if a government is afraid to have its citizens armed, it probably isn't serving them. Every dictatorship in
history has started by disarming it's citizenry.
While europe might be a bunch of ninnies used to living unarmed under someones crown , not all that long ago in the grand
scheme of things, we Americans killed the last people who tried to confiscate our guns.
Back to the topic though, I find the poster mildly amusing, and I have mentally replaced every Obama poster I see with it's
image and it gives me a chuckle most days.

Freelancer, you are going to do what to the guy with the gun? Ask him nicely to put it down so you can bitch-slap him? That's
not how it works.
'bama is a nutter, McCain is a nutter who dreams about throwing nukes. Vote Libertarian.

Just remember when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
And the second ammendment was NEVER about hunting. It was about giving the we the people the means to keep
government in check, if a government is afraid to have its citizens armed, it probably isn't serving them. Every dictatorship in
history has started by disarming it's citizenry.
While europe might be a bunch of ninnies used to living unarmed under someones crown , not all that long ago in the grand
scheme of things, we Americans killed the last people who tried to confiscate our guns.
Back to the topic though, I find the poster mildly amusing, and I have mentally replaced every Obama poster I see with it's
image and it gives me a chuckle most days.
I'm sorry for this, but you're post made me smile :), what's that "patriot" act I keep hearing about? It's amusing to see
someone talk about "dictatorship". And in Europe it's the government that fears the citizens, in America things are the other
way around. Hint: We protest, and changes happen. And there's a lot I hear about man in black knocking on your door if you
buy some stuff there, now what does that mean?
I'm not trying to be impolite and I'm sorry if I sound like that, I just think that weapons don't help people. I actually hope
Obama wins (not that he can make a lot of difference, politics is all talk no action)

From what I have perceived over here in Europe. It is like Obama looks like a good choice. But From the gun point of view ;)
Obama is very bad, and McCain is only "bad".
It is like voting between Adolf and Josif, while being a rich land owning Jew, You are fucked what ever you do! :D
Anyways, I'd vote for Obama, you know for kicks. I can live with single shots.
You in America have your strange two-party political system. So I have some trouble perceiving it.

...and humans arn't naturally greedy, mean, selfish ...You sure about that?:rolleyes:
megalomania October 18th, 2008, 11:31 PM

Good ol gunban Osama Obama. He supports abortions, but wants to ban guns. I guess this is wise since all the defenseless
women who get raped and impregnated will want to abort the innocent child. Surely getting an abortion after being raped must
cheer you up enough to forget all your worries, but killing some scumbag only looking for a little rough love would scar you for
life...
FreeLancer October 19th, 2008, 05:16 AM

Good ol gunban Osama Obama. He supports abortions, but wants to ban guns. I guess this is wise since all the defenseless
women who get raped and impregnated will want to abort the innocent child. Surely getting an abortion after being raped must
cheer you up enough to forget all your worries, but killing some scumbag only looking for a little rough love would scar you for
life...
I don't quite agree. You'd never feel better, even if you kill him. It's because of the way you people think, you'll never support
peace. But here's my idea:
Money is the problem for probably 95% crime in the world. (even if say your wife leaves you for money and you kill that other
son of a cow)
No money - no problem
But wait! There's still 5%, well actually there isn't (sociopaths, psychopaths..). It's been proven that if you neglect your child
during the first 8 months of it's life, you've got some big chances of the kid killing everyone on the block. Here's the thing:
why would anyone neglect his/her own offspring? One of the reasons is for sure: Money!
Say we're down to 2% .. and for those I have no solution (build prisons just for them?) Where's the point? They'll escape. Kill
em? Probably...
Cobalt, yes I'm very sure
3287 October 19th, 2008, 06:08 AM

Jacks Complete,
I was going to vote Libertarian. Then they picked Drug War, Lautenberg Amendment, Patriot Act Barr.
So, given that there are no actual libertarians running, I'll be staying home.

"No money - no problem" and "...humans arn't naturally greedy, mean, selfish ..."This is so naive and simplistic as to be
utterly laughable.:rolleyes:
The basic nature of Man has been debated for ages. I choose not to debate. But to assume that the basic nature of Man is
good leaves you wide open to those who do not hold your warm, fuzzy emotions to heart.
Hope for the best but be prepared for the worst.
Skean Dhu October 20th, 2008, 02:12 AM

You're absolutely right FreeLancer, in Europe the governments do fear the subjects, that is why most demand that one acquire
a license in order to own a firearm or limit you to 17th century technology. When you control who has licenses you control who
has the weapons. Even Switzerland is being pressured to do away with the 'fighting rifle in every household' ideal that they
have maintained for generations.
I can't argue the USA PATRIOT ACT, that atrocity was rushed through congress before anyone had a chance to actaully read it.
435 pages of legalese written and voted on in 6 weeks? I'm willing to bet few actually read it before voting. And we can thank
the war on drugs for the JBTs kicking down your door a 0'dark thirty after you order chemicals online.
All of those can be attributed to apathy. No one wanted to stand up for them because 'it didn't affect them' well with some 84
million gun owners in the USA there are plenty of people affected by weapons bans. And there are many interest groups with
deep pockets to sway politicans votes their way.
You may believe with all your heart and soul that people are nice and the only reason they rob, rape and steal is because
mommy breast fed them too long or not long enough but at the end of they day the reason YOU want to get rid of weapons
and the reason your Government wants to get rid of weapons are completely different.
If you or others would care to continue this discussion we should probably create another thread so as not to hi-jack this one
further.

Look at Europe.
What about Europe? Ever been to Eastern Europe, they'ed slit your throat for bus fare there.
You're being paranoid, and humans arn't naturally greedy, mean, selfish ... It's MONEY that makes us those monsters, my
moto is: no money - no problem
Exactly, no money, no shelter, no clothing, no food and soon no life, then your dead you've got no problems, but hard a
lifestyle I think many would embrace.
If a guy pressed a gun on my face I'd probably panic like anyone else, but if I didn't, then I'd beat the heck out of him BUT
not kill him.
If a guy press a gun in your face and you Tried to beat the heck out of him you'ed probably die with a large hole in your face,
thats why people tend to carry guns.
kepiblanc October 20th, 2008, 08:53 PM

I don't get why you would even be here on the EXPLOSIVES AND WEAPONS FORUM if you would also have such an anti-weapon
sentiment such as this. :confused:
The Second Amendment has nothing to do with hunting, by the way. It was drafted into the United States Constitution by
America's founding fathers as AN INDIVIDUAL RIGHT for posterity as a guarantor against tyranny the people. An armed
populace is not all that easy to tyrannize compared to an unarmed one. ;)

You're being paranoid, and humans arn't naturally greedy, mean, selfish ... It's MONEY that makes us those monsters, my
moto is: no money - no problem
And by the way I can actually say that comming from a not-so-poor-family if you know what I meen. It's money that corrupts
and it's weapons that help the criminals. If a guy pressed a gun on my face I'd probably panic like anyone else, but if I didn't,
then I'd beat the heck out of him BUT not kill him.
Hey, FreeLancer. Have you ever actually tried having NO money? I agree that money does make us monsters, but it certainly
isn't a case of "No Money, No Problem". These people have no money, that is WHY they are trying to take yours. What else
did you think they want your wallet for? It sure as hell isn't your photo.
When it comes down to it, a lot of humans would choose themselves over someone they don't know. I think that is selfish.
Also, beating the heck out of someone doesn't work, it just pisses them off. This isn't the movies. If you beat on them, and
they can find you later, they will come and fuck you up with more stuff than they had the first time. If someone sticks a gun in
my face and I get the chance to take them down, they will go down and not get up again.
Perhaps you have never had the privilege of meeting truly nasty people?:rolleyes:

Looks like the Democrats are using their sleazy tactics to get votes for team
Obama bin-Biden. This is from the October 27, 2008 Time Magazine. Page 26
in the printed version:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1851144,00.html
I was told by the very nice election-

board workers that in person early
voters come in two varieties:the super-
informed and the people Obama sup-
porters pick up off the streets and throw
into a van. You can tell the difference
mainly by the smell. ...
One thing I've learned about these bottomfeeding pandhandlers is that they're
con artists playing on peoples' sympathies rather than getting a job. They're
more allergic to work than I am to pollen. Often what they can't get by
panhandling they'll manipulate out of social services systems for welfare and
disability payments. And sometimes they'll just outright steal. I have no use
for them but the sleazy Democrats obviously do !
James October 26th, 2008, 07:06 PM

Heh, I think Obama and McCain are bad and worse (not neccesarily in the order). As for voting Libertarian do you actually
think someone without corporate phallus in their rectum and a PAC cum on their face actually has a chance of getting any
Electoral college votes?(/blatently offensive)
kepiblanc October 30th, 2008, 03:01 PM

Wow - so far, 50% of my poll's respondents apparently do feel that Obama is something akin to a Soviet-style Marxist, while
less than a third surely must feel that he isn't, and just a bit less than that are on the fence over it.
Korimyr the Rat November 13th, 2008, 09:29 AM

Because if you give something useful to people without weapons, people with weapons are only going to steal it from them--
all of the aid in the world is meaningless if the people you supply it to cannot defend themselves.
Wow - so far, 50% of my poll's respondents apparently do feel that Obama is something akin to a Soviet-style Marxist, while
less than a third surely must feel that he isn't, and just a bit less than that are on the fence over it.
Or maybe they just appreciate the art.
************************
Don't double post
kepiblanc November 14th, 2008, 04:09 AM

Or maybe they just appreciate the art.
Yes, perhaps they would also just appreciate art such as this -
http://typo.graphr.net/images/obama-hope.jpg
because it might remind them of art such as this -
http://www.extrememortman.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/Karl%20Marx.jpg
or this -
http://www.edupics.com/en-coloring-pictures-pages-photo-lenin-p10020.jpg
or this -
http://blogs.smh.com.au/radar/che.jpg
festergrump November 14th, 2008, 06:32 AM

Good for targets, as I said before.
I don't have a Che Guevara one, that's for sure...
Korimyr the Rat November 14th, 2008, 10:09 PM

Yes, perhaps they would also just appreciate art such as this
How can they not? These are beautiful, iconic images whether you agree with the ideologies behind them or not-- that's why
they are so powerful, for propaganda purposes. They evoke powerful, positive emotions that become associated with the
subjects of the posters.
Ever seen Chinese propaganda posters? The combination of bright colors, photorealistic detail, and fantastic images make
them incredible art.
kepiblanc November 15th, 2008, 04:20 PM

How can they not? These are beautiful, iconic images whether you agree with the ideologies behind them or not-- that's why
they are so powerful, for propaganda purposes. They evoke powerful, positive emotions that become associated with the
subjects of the posters.
Ever seen Chinese propaganda posters? The combination of bright colors, photorealistic detail, and fantastic images make
them incredible art.
Yes, I am quite familiar with the artistic styles of all of the numerous propaganda posters from Red China, North Korea, The
Soviet Union, Cuba, and other former or current Communist nations. One thing that many of them have in common is that
along with other forms of mass media, they serve to help establish a "cult of personality", so as to create a heroic public
image through unquestioning flattery and praise. Cults of personality are often found in dictatorships.
What troubles me about Barack Hussein Obama-Soetoro's choice of artistic style for his own "Hope" poster is that it seems
rather apparent to me that he is attempting to emulate these very same personality cults that despots and tyrants have used
throughout the 20th century for himself. This is why I wanted to illustrate the similarities of his poster and that of other
Communist icons above.
I can see no good whatsoever coming from a smarmy and smooth-talking leftist radical demagogue like Barack Hussein
Obama-Soetoro if he winds up actually taking the office of POTUS. Just like his own "Hope" poster subtly suggests, and from
his very own rhetoric, the guy keeps giving me this creepy vibe that he has every intention of becoming America's first
Communist president.
What's wrong with Communism, you say? Oh, not much, I guess, if you're willing to overlook the deaths of over 100 million
people worldwide as a result of it since 1917. That's way, way more death than G.W. Bush's wars, Hitler's aggression in the late
1930's, the Holocaust, and all of the other deaths from WWII combined. :mad:

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Zeitgeist
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View Full Version : Zeitgeist

Has anyone seen the first and second part of the movie?
http://www.zeitgeistm ovie.com /
This is my personal view, but I think the m ovie got it right!

I rather liked Zeitgeist, however I thou ght the first part was rather drawn out and boring. It's got som e interesting stuff about
the federal reserve in there.
It's certainly a good "intro documentary" to the subject of world government, tax scheming, etc..
Lewis October 9th, 2008, 10:49 PM

Are you referring to the second Zeitgeist m ovie? It just cam e out, for anyone who is intere s t e d .
I thought it was m uch better than the first installment. Good entertainm ent if nothing else .
DarkWrath October 14th , 2 0 0 8 , 1 2 : 4 8 P M

I watched the first one and it was asking som e good question , as well as providing som e interesting inside on the Am erican
financial system.
I think I will watch the second part tom orrow an d post m y opinion.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Who would win? - A hypothetical situation
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View Full Version : Who would win? - A hypothetical situation
ChippedHammer October 6th, 2008, 12:26 PM

This is ripped from another forum I visit.
So you have 100 US Marines vs the Entire 1776 British army (60,000)
Landscape : Completely open flat battle field in the middle of a valley, both sides are camped approximately 4km away from each other.
Brits have standard weapons of the era w ith unlimited ammo as well as standard logistical supply lines of the day.
US Marines have unlimited ammo with similar supply lines.
US Marines have a mixture of Machine gunners, riflemen and snipers.
Brits have cannons and US Marines do not have air support, vehicles or Artillery. US Marines know how many forces are against them, Brits do not.
Both forces act as the would for their era
Both sides have standard issue equipment for their era
Who would win?
Firstly, the British army are useless at any sort of range. They can really only hurt you if they are within 100m. Therefore you have 3.9km to neutralize 60,000 men running as
fast as they can at you on foot w ith a few horses leading the charge.
I would like to think that 100 men manning .50 cal M2's w ould have a fighting chance, only issue with this w ould be barrel w ear chewing through linked belts like there was no
tomorrow, but I think the new er M2's have quick change barrels. I don't know how long they take to change.
The field guns the British w ould drag to battle would be useless, not only do they have next to no accurate range but by the time they carted the things into range they would
be one massive bullet magnet.
Well that's me, what do you think?
JamieBond October 6th, 2008, 12:51 PM

Firstly, the British army are useless at any sort of range.
Oh dear.. :rolleyes: As opposed to whom? The US?
ChippedHammer October 6th, 2008, 01:12 PM

Oh dear.. :rolleyes: As opposed to whom? The US?
Talking about their weapons, muskets have quite limited range.

Condsidering the amount of firepower 100 modern soldiers have at their disposal I'ed say they could defeat just about any army from before the era of bolt action magazine
rifles. (But if 100 of the old soldiers get to the modern soldiers all bets are off.)
FU TI October 8th, 2008, 02:25 PM

http://ww w.britishbattles.com/zulu-war/isandlwana.htm
I think that men w ho doesn't know the history is damned to repeat it.
Brits had similar idea before as you see...look what that gotten to them. Adversary is adversary...an enemy who you must respect and count on...sometimes that is only thing
you can count on.

60K men w/fucking swords could give them a run for their money. Give the 60K muskets AND artillery? You gotta be kidding me!

Isn't a basic combat pack like ~250 rounds of 5,56? ---> ~250000 rounds of 5.56.
Well If the US has snipers and M2's the brits only good option is to bomb the shit out of them.
The longest recorded shot (that caused a enemy casualty, who was targeted) with a handheld smallarm is ~2,5km with a .59BMG Barret rifle, so even with them the brits
probably could shell them. Of cource the shelling might occur just after the brits have sacrificed 20k men in a full front human wave attack :)
SO if the British are smart enough to shell the US ones with "unlimited" supplies, they could just bomb the shit out of them.
BTW ChippedHammer, didn't you copy&paste that from /k/ didn't ya?

http://ww w.britishbattles.com/zulu-war/isandlwana.htm
I think that men w ho doesn't know the history is damned to repeat it.
Brits had similar idea before as you see...look what that gotten to them. Adversary is adversary...an enemy who you must respect and count on...sometimes that is only thing
you can count on.
Yes but a couple of things that should be remembered, at Isandlwana the British were armed with Martini Henry rifles (I believe), single shot rifles that had to be reloaded after
every shot (although much faster than a flint lock still slow) and the w ay the ammunition was disperesed to the troops slow ed down their fire rate even further, a modern force
could put out far more lead in the same time that the force at Isandlwana. Another thing is that the Zulu used the terrain to their advantage in Isandlwana, while the British
tended to bunch up (remember Custer), in 100 modern troop vs. an 18th century army the modren troops would use the terrain to their advantage while the 18th century army
would probably follow very static field tactics and get cut apart for all their efforts. By the way I have a couple questions, 1) Whats the terrian like? Rolling field, Forested Hills,
Desert, Steel Plate? And 2) Do the modern troops have any man protable anti-armour w eapons? Those could negate the 18th century army's cannon advantage.

...w hile the British tended to bunch up (remember Custer)...Intresting thing, that. Turns out that Custer's men w ere not bunched up as had been previously thought.
After battleground forensics and Indian interviews being taken at face value, it's been determined that the troops broke and ran and were slaughtered over a w ide area, most
notably in a gulch that ran across the battle area. There were several small pockets where there were soldiers bunched in together (two's and three's), but nothing like the
heroic "Last Stand" of lore.

I bet ya, that the Brits wouldn't need to run at all, that's 60000 bullets flying everywhere but even at a distance that far I bet you'd kill 'em eventually, plus the use of the
artillery
++ ++++ +++ ++++ +++
Don't quote w hole posts - The_Duke
James October 9th, 2008, 07:05 PM

I think the marines would 'play dirty' by the rules the British follow and take them down. I remember seeing a show where it mentioned they w ere ticked off after the
revlutionary war because (some?) of the Americans deliberately (and successfully) targeted the officers leaving the cannon fodder with their thumbs up their asses. Not to
mention the marines would likely split up and attack from multiple angles.
crazywhiteguy October 9th, 2008, 09:09 PM

I think it w ould be a close battle where the 1776 army w ould come out on top. Compare this to a zombie outbreak. Even w ith dozens of people with the latest weaponry, They
still got eaten in all the movies. I think it would be similar here. they have 30 round magazines as standard, they are trained to shoot at about 500m as a maximum in a battle
type situation as far as I know. So you can do the math on that. 100 soldiers, each one can get about two kills per minute if they rarely miss, The max range would possible be
say 800m. . At a w alking pace that w ould make the brits take 10 or 20 minutes to get to the marines (hand to hand.) So that is around 4000 kills
That's not counting their ability to rapidly target and kill full auto at close range. So I would guess, w hile considering reloading, vollies and going back to the command point or
supply point for more ammo, They would take a lot of fire and have a large standing army in front of them that would be hailing them w ith lead during any sort of cease fire.
Even at 2 rounds per minute thats still a lot of bullets flying at you. Even with modern armor you have a damn good chance of hitting a soft spot.

Intresting thing, that. Turns out that Custer's men were not bunched up as had been previously thought.
After battleground forensics and Indian interviews being taken at face value, it's been determined that the troops broke and ran and were slaughtered over a w ide area, most
notably in a gulch that ran across the battle area. There were several small pockets where there were soldiers bunched in together (two's and three's), but nothing like the
heroic "Last Stand" of lore.
Considering that they were surrounded by Indians I'm not supprised they ran! But anyway Custer showed poor tactics. On yea did they mention that the many of the Indians
were armed w ith repeating rifles, while the U.S. Army had only single shot rifles which gave the Indians another advantage, and not 1 Indian had the decency to write a thank
you letter to Winchester. :D
That's not counting their ability to rapidly target and kill full auto at close range. So I would guess, w hile considering reloading, vollies and going back to the command point or
supply point for more ammo, They would take a lot of fire and have a large standing army in front of them that would be hailing them w ith lead during any sort of cease fire.
Even at 2 rounds per minute thats still a lot of bullets flying at you. Even with modern armor you have a damn good chance of hitting a soft spot.
Your only considering individual weapons, your forgetting crew serviced machine guns, they killed thousands in WWI, two machine guns with an interlocking field of fire can get
a hit with almost every shot, if the Modern Soldiers dug in WWI style and funneled the 18th Century Army into killing zones with, say claymores set up before hand, then they
could handle the superior force I think, and as to the Zombie anology, Zombies don't break and run., Armies have been known to.
I remember seeing a show where it mentioned they were ticked off after the revlutionary war because (some?) of the Americans deliberately (and successfully) targeted the
officers leaving the cannon fodder with their thumbs up their asses.
Sounds like Ranger tactics, but the British had American Rangers as well.
chemdude1999 October 10th, 2008, 10:47 PM

Let's say the Brits send out a group in the traditional slow march forward. They would be promptly dispatched. However, just because they followed strict rules of warfare,
doesn't mean they were stupid. They would adapt.
The key would be good commanders for the Brits, directing the men appropriately. Adaptive command tactics, so to speak.
Sure, Marines are the best trained general infantry group in the US, but 60,000 is simply too much to overcome. Even though it wasn't super accurate, in the hands of a skilled
rifleman, the Brown Bess could reach well beyond 100 meters.
The Marines lose, but only after inflicting a probable 20 to 1 kill ratio (maybe higher). The battle would be over in less than 30 minutes once the distance was covered and
engagement proceeded. The M2 positions would be overrun, leaving the Marines with their M16's ... running backwards.
Ironically, medieval long bowmen would stand a better chance. Those bastards could reach out and touch with accuracy.
Now, if ALL the modern men were taught how to properly headspace a M2 .50BMG, the odds would change. ;)

Let's say the Brits send out a group in the traditional slow march forward. They would be promptly dispatched. However, just because they followed strict rules of warfare,
doesn't mean they were stupid. They would adapt.
The key would be good commanders for the Brits, directing the men appropriately. Adaptive command tactics, so to speak.
Yes the commander is important, and that would probably be the largest variable for the British, remember although the British did have some great commanders commissions
were purchased, not assigned on merit, so you tended to get a mixed bag.
Sure, Marines are the best trained general infantry group in the US, but 60,000 is simply too much to overcome. Even though it wasn't super accurate, in the hands of a skilled
rifleman, the Brown Bess could reach well beyond 100 meters.
Again it depends on the territory.
The Marines lose, but only after inflicting a probable 20 to 1 kill ratio (maybe higher). The battle would be over in less than 30 minutes once the distance was covered and
engagement proceeded. The M2 positions would be overrun, leaving the Marines with their M16's ... running backwards.
Yea but would the 18th century army take the massive losses without breaking or faultering?
Ironically, medieval long bowmen would stand a better chance. Those bastards could reach out and touch with accuracy.
What w as their distance and speed? They were quite deadly, but nobody remembers that anymore, todays kids think the Battle of Agincourt was a gang fight in Scarbrough.
Now, if ALL the modern men were taught how to properly headspace a M2 .50BMG, the odds would change. ;)
TreverSlyFox October 13th, 2008, 10:22 AM

What w as their distance and speed? They were quite deadly, but nobody remembers that anymore, todays kids think the Battle of Agincourt was a gang fight in Scarbrough.
An "experienced" Longbow man could fire 20 arrows per minute w ith a range of 250 yds - 325 yds. Rate of fire declined over the course of battle due to fatigue. Archers started
with about 75 arrows which would last between 3 - 6 minutes. At the 300 -325 yd range it w as massed fire not accuracy, at 200 - 250 yds about 25%-30% hit rate, at 150 -
200 yd about 50% , less than 150 yds 80% - 100% as the range declined.
The cost of keeping "Longbow Men" in an army w as pretty high as it takes years to master a bow with a "draw weight" over 140 lbs (The bow s recovered from the Mary Rose
averaged 143 lbs) and required constant practice to keep the body in shape. They averaged from 5' 8" to 6' 11" in length depending on the archer's height and strength and
several examples have draw w eights of 180 - 185 lbs.
The two "main" battles "w on" by the Longbow w ere the Battle of Crecy (1346) and the Battle of Agincourt (1415) as you mentioned. Though the Battle of Agincourt w as w on as
much by a wet, muddy field as by the bow . The English bowman engaged the French Knights at 300 yds with massed fire, killing almost all their horses by 150 yds. Then
picked off the Knights as they slipped and slid across the field in the mud.
At 50 - 75 yds the longbow w ould put a 30" arrow with a "Bodkin point" through wrought iron plate armor and into the horse the Knight was riding. Though the more expensive
"steel plate" could defeat the longbow except at the "joints" at the same range. The average "grunt" didn't have steel plate or even full wrought iron plate, so they were pretty
much arrow bait from the 11th - 16th century and bullet bait after that.
chemdude1999 October 14th, 2008, 08:38 PM

Nice synopsis, TreverSlyFox.
As to the question of an 18th century army running for their lives after sustaining massive losses: Yes, they w ould break up and run for any cover. Even good leaders couldn't
stop that. Even if they knew what to expect, I think they still would run. In reality, it depends on what they were fighting for. I can think of two scenarios in which the British
might hold up after such losses: (1) They were fighting with nothing else to loose, except their own country. If this is the case, then an intense patriotism or other pride is
necessary. (2) Religious zealotry always motivates w ell.
Just an exercise in the hypothetical, but still interesting.

FU TI October 15th, 2008, 01:17 PM
Well I don't know the shit about marines tactics. But let us see this issue from unit strength.
Marines: Brits
100 men 60000 men
M16's No. x? musket's No. q?
RPG's No. y? cannon's No. w?
M2's No. z? dragoon's No. p?
You w ill notice that I added the RPG's to marines which were not mentioned in the post No. 1.
Brits w hich have the cannons would use them to reach from distance so marines would have to spread if they don't wish to become cannon fodder. That reduce the strength of
marine unit and although it creates more job for the Brits as they have multiple points of resistance to chase on the battlefield they have enough men not to be upset by this. To
make the things w orse Brits also have mobile cavalry units w hich is ideal for chase of smaller packs of soldiers on the battlefield and cutting them down while they run to
regroup.
Marines can use RPG's and M2's to their advantage to a certain point. M2's are only thing that Brits don't have the answ er in advance. RPG's aren't weapon of choice for this
situation if you ask me and Brits would recognized it as some kind of rockets with which they are familiar as they were used in their time too.
Now will someone be kind enough to fill in the x,y,z,q,w,and p variable so that w e know what the hell w e try to evaluate? Please fill in the numbers to resemble standard unit
sizes/complements of the era. If I'm not mistaken artillery unit of Brits in that era used 30 men per cannon. How many cannons would have 60000 men strong army? How much
horseman would Brits have in the 60000 strong army? How many M2's and RPG's 100 marines can really drag around (my guess are 2 and 10)?
Now psychological status of unit is unpredictable element I agree but that goes for both sides. Imagine that you are marine soldier and find yourself surrounded by 60000 enemy
soldiers....not comfortable I guess. Anyway if you look closely that site I posted previously you w ill noticed that Battle of Balaclava is described there. Wrong order to enter the
valley which had surrounding sides and second exit of valley packed with enemy artillery was executed and unit didn't break up even under heavy enemy fire. So counting on
psychology is like throwing a dice as you can see.
Only advantage I admit is limited number officers Brits have as logic and rules of warfare was different then. Even if marines have better info about battleground that doesn't
mean that Brits w on't know to use what they see in front of them. Zulu's did use ground to their advantage when the Brits draw their first attack to a halt in the center of the
front AKA duck and watch your ass tactical approach. But Brits didn't have enough men to cover w hole front at Isandlwana w hich would be marines problem in this hypothetical
battle.

actually I think the Americans would w in, because of the philosophical factor added on their side. I meen, how would you feel if someone had the ability to shoot huge amounts
of bullets at you and carry an armor you can't pierce on 70% of the body. Hell I'd run because of the fear factor.
ChippedHammer October 17th, 2008, 10:51 AM

How high can the British climb their dead?
Whats the price of a mile?
Go for the Generals and Officers IMO
I should w rite to NBK, I'm sure he will respond with a interesting answer :)

This is completely unknowable.
What is the point of the battle? That is how we can determine who might win. Let us consider that the marines are defending a w arp portal, or something. In w hich case, they
would lose, unless they had time to fortify the place. If they dug in, and w ere allowed concrete and other modern things such as barbed wire, then they would hold out until
starved out.
If they tried to stand and fight, they w ould be killed, eventually. The British troops, along with all others of that time, were trained to stand and take it. They fired from standing, in
massed ranks, so they were used to those around them falling down while they reloaded. Don't forget, in WWI, the British plan w as to run into the barbed w ire and the machineguns.
The battle is best remembered for its first day, 1 July 1916, on w hich the British suffered 57,470 casualties, including 19,240 deadthe bloodiest day in the history of the British Army.Try
and get your head around that! And THEY TRIED AGAIN! Same tactics. And again, and again.
Take a look at Pancho Villa, he w as w ildly successful, winning every contest, until someone used modern tactics against him, and then:Battle of Celaya
Mexican Revolution
The Battle of Celaya, which occurred near Celaya, Guanajuato, on 13 April 1915, was a battle of the Mexican Revolution.
The Conventionist forces under Pancho Villa w ere badly defeated by forces under the command of lvaro Obregn, who supported the presidency of Venustiano Carranza. Villa
lost around 4,000 men killed in frontal attacks. He also lost 1,000 horses, 5,000 rifles, and 32 cannons. Approximately 6,000 of his men were taken prisoner. Of those captured,
120 of Villa's officers w ere executed.
In this battle, Obregn developed a defense "in depth" that proved very effective against the offense-heavy cavalry charges and artillery techniques used at that time, and was
based on his study of the trench conflict (World War I) then raging in Europe. Although Obregn's lines w eakened at times, he had sufficient reserves to bolster it at any point.
Villa had committed all his men to the attack. He was unable to exploit any area of w eakness or to protect his flanks which were enveloped by Obregn's cavalry.
The battle was a turning point in the future of Villa, the Revolution and Mexican history in the 20th century. Villa was never able to recover his losses, and w ith that lost most of
his political and social influence.Pancho's men charged the wire and guns 4 times!
So history already tells us the likely answ er. The Marines would be effectively unstoppable if they burst out, but they would be overcome by the lack of ammo and then a man
with a rapier w ould stick him, and it would be over. LINEAR (or whatever) would perhaps shock anyone too slow to get their sw ord out, but after that it would be a short fight,
with surrender the only option. But in defense? Well dug in and fortified against masses attacks, they could hold anywhere forever.
Of course, you could bring a country like the 1800's USA to it's knees with a 4 man SAS team using Shoot & Scoot tactics for terrorism. Fatigue w ould be the only limiting factor.
Well, and perhaps ammo supply if they got caught up in a stand and fight too often.
Jome skanish October 28th, 2008, 06:58 PM

As the Brittish commander, I'd use the following tactic:
1. Set everything on fire to produce a massive amount of smoke, reduce the Marines sighting distance. As muskets and cannons rely on "area fire", this would make things
much more even. And if you have unlimited access to ammunition, this means lots of black pow der w hich as we all know produces lots of smoke...
2. Divide your force into many smaller but fast moving ones to force the Marines to either spread out too thin or dig into a fortified position. If they counterattack, smoke along
with "bad areas" w ith pre-positioned cannons firing from a distance would make a bloody mess.
3. Once the Marines have been "locked" in their positions, use 2/10 of your army every time using up, shoot, hide tactics and KEEP AT THEM 24/7 until they go nuts with sleep
deprivation.
And once again the king rules supreme.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > the meaning of love and
friendship
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Thermiteisfun October 6th, 2008, 03:44 PM

In return for the thought provoking discussion (although it was derailed a bit) I provided earlier last week I ask a fa vor of you
forum ites.... please interpret the full m eaning of this song for m e.
http://au.youtube.com /watch?v=9KGtuMHinLM
lyrics here:
http://www.lyrics007.com /George%20Michael%20Lyrics/Careless%20Whisper%20Lyrics.htm l
I kinda have a basic understanding of the feelings expressed by this song but I want to know the full depth of whats
e x p r e s s e d i n it. It's so full of conflicting messages. Afte r this song was sent to m e I was sent the song "I will possess your
heart" by Deathcab for Cutie.
W hile obviou sly this site was meant for things other than love..... the intelligence expressed here is above par even at m ajo r
u n i v e r s i t i e s a n d I a m h o p i n g t h e g r e a t m i n d s h e r e m a y h e l p m e.
Kind a important.
Plea se help.
P . S . Y e s I g o o g l e d a n d I f o u n d s c a n t i n f o r m ation bordering on shit topics at yaho o ask (not capitalized for a reason), I wish to
know this before I say I love her for we both believe that those words are not to be used callously and it reflects a state of
bein g. BTW we both pay close attention to lyrics.
P.S.S. m y thoughts on the m e a n i n g :
I f e e l s o u n s u r e a s I t a k e y o u r hand an lead you to the dance floor.

As the music dies something in your eyes
Calls to mind a silver screen and you're its sad goodbye.
I'm never go n n a d a n c e a g a i n
guilty feet have got n o rhythm
She is unsure of her feelings yet she feels guilty about recent actions of hers. her recent breakup is still tro ubling her.
Though it's easy to pretend

I know you're not a fool.
I should have known better th an to cheat a frie n d
Easy enough, I act stupid quite often but when interested I show m y intellect.
...drunk i finish in m orning.dam n s h e s a f r e a k i n g g e n i u s s h e p l a y s t h e s e m i n d g a m es with me all the time to test me :)
-=HeX=- October 7th, 2008, 04:17 AM

H i c k e y : t h e o n e f e m ale forum ite I kne w left the forum because it was too male dom i n a t e d , s o m a y b e a b i t o f t o l e r a n c e ?
Thermiteisfun: So ye are using song lyrics to tell each o ther your feelings for each other... W ell thats im aginative... I was just
told it to m y face and I said it back and it was all good from t h e n o n h o w e v e r b e f o r e b e i n g o n e s l o v e r y o u s h o u l d a l s o b e a
very close friend. Pm m e .

Let;s get things clear 2 thingy...
I would like to ask yo u the sam e q u e s t i o n
why would so m e o n e d i s c u s s t h e s e e f f e minate phrases ( love and friendship) on this forum .......?
You.....would you care to talk about those issues with your fellow m ates....? W ould it not bother them that their friend had
som e gender issues?
Me I would not talk about it either with guys ,,,but only with ladies. But are there any fem ales in this forum that can appreciate
such subject matter?
I have a better question for you, hicke y: Why would you type like a 'tard? Consider this a warning.
And for the record, the water cooler is: Socialize am o n g f r i e n d s , share your thou g h t s , a n d d i s c u s s t o p i c s t h a t d o n t fit into
any other section on The Forum .
This thread is a perfe ctly fine exam ple of socialization and the sharing of people's though ts.
Thermiteisfun October 7th, 2008, 05:19 PM

h m m m ... we are very close friends though a recent situation regarding an ex has left her m entally and em o t i o n a l l y e x h a u s t e d
to say the least.
I a m m o v i n g to the city she lives in wh ich is coincidentally my hometown.
I h a v e f o u n d what the song is about and the content, to be truthful fits the situation perfe ctly.....though the words must be
t a k e n s o m ewhat out of context and literal. I am im m e n s e l y h a p p y s o m e t h i n g s u c h a s t h i s h a s h a p p e n e d t o m e b e c a u s e I
honestly never thought it would happen.
I s u p p o s e I s h o u l d g i v e h e r t i m e to recover from t h e e m o t i o n a l t r a u m a b o t h I a n d h e r e x h a s c a u s e d h e r , b u t I w i s h s o d e a r l y
to tell her those three special words in the throws of passion :( .
Edit: and to hickey....you sir, are a hom ophobic dick with no inte l l i g e n c e t o s p e a k o f a n d d o n o t b e l o n g e v e n i n t h e B F L
section.....disappear and never return as you lack both the intelligence and em otional maturity to deal with anything discussed
here.
-=HeX=- October 7th, 2008, 08:56 PM

Thermite: give her time to heal, but dont abandon her during th at time. Be there for her. Em otions are delicate, so you m ust
help patch them up very carefully. Also, always be sure you know exactly what you are doing and p lan appropriately... I know
how you are feeling, and telling her you love her will actually probably be quite nerve wracking.
Hickey: this forum is not all m en, we h a v e h a d f e m a l e m e m b e r s . Y o u a r e a c t i n g h o m ophobically and that is not rea lly
acce ptable... Ah well I am not a m od so I cant really give out, ju st watch yourself. Also, thermite is not gay, he is in love with a
girl and is obviously straight so shut up.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Incomplete Ebook - Kill Without
Joy - John Minnery -- REWAR D
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jimmyboy1 October 9th, 2008, 10:39 PM

T h i s b o o k i s o n t h e F T P a n d h as been incomplete for a while now. If you know who has it or can scan it please send m e a
m essage. Thanks.
Mr Science October 10th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 3 : 2 9 P M

After going through it m yself and organizing everything, I've bum ped into about 2-3 full copies so far...
jimmyboy1 October 10th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 4 : 1 5 P M

Every copy I run into is m issing pages 174-320. Pretty much all of Volum e 4 . Y o u h a v e s e e n a c o m plete copy?
jimmyboy1 October 19th , 2 0 0 8 , 1 1 : 4 1 P M

I a m h a v i n g t h e s i n k i n g f e e l i n g t h a t a l o n g g o n e m e m ber or m aybe even NBK scanned this book. W ell the cash reward offer
r e m a i n s f i r m . I f a n y o n e h a s a ny tips o n where to find the rest of this book withou t shelling out $300 please m e s s a g e m e .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Amateur Chemistry= drugs and bombs
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rangegal October 12th, 2008, 08:20 PM

Inspired by forumites talking about how the sheeple have been trained by the government to associate legitimate things like amateur chemistry (and related words) with
"scary" things like "scary drugs" and "scary bombs and chemical weapons" and "terrorism" (which funny enough has a synonym for scary in its name), I will be conducting a
correlational study testing how well these things well... correlate in free association when I say one of the legitimate words and ask a participant to say the first thing that
comes to his/her mind.
No, this isn't just for fun, its for a Psychology project. I figure I'll just have the computer guy at our school use the random student name lister to whip up a list of random
characters who I'll find and ask to participate. I don't have many words planned yet. So far I think I'll do: Hemp and Illegal Drugs, and the one I used in the title.
Any ideas for other ones? I will definitely be sure to share the results with you guys, although ya'll already know what the results are going to be. Any suggestions on how to
conduct the experiment are welcome too. Thanks ahead of time!
festergrump October 12th, 2008, 09:11 PM

What a great idea.
If you're personable and have some charisma it'll definitely help, and a couple of light one liners might also lighten the mood a bit before you begin. Be sure to mix many really
meaningless words and some similar to your study (but not too closely related) for them to associate with into your barrage, just to keep it from taking a noticeable direction.
As far as word associations that may be of interest to you, here are some I'd find interesting off the top of my head. Not sure if any of these align with your ultimate objective,
but please be sure to report back to us when you have finished. This should prove to be a very interesting sheeple study!
Media
Fertilizer
Middle east
Handgun
Civil war
Depression
Israel
New World Order
Second Amendment
Hoarding
Welfare
Radiation
Infidel
Patriot
Oppression
Airplane
Gasoline
Union
Democrat
Republican
Religion
Hypocratic oath
Saucer
Hurricane
Police state
Global warming
Phosphorous
Virus
Ron Paul ("Who the fuck's that?" :rolleyes:) Be interesting to know how many have never heard of him, though.
Hey, if you survey 100 people, we can get an official RS game of Family Feud going on. Mods versus a few members, anyone? :)
Alexires October 12th, 2008, 10:17 PM

Army
Liberal
Science
Research
Economy
Money
United
Home Loan
Music
Rock
Mining
Martial Art
Metallica
Slayer
Beethoven
Mozart
Mao
Stalin
Russia
Communist
Soviet
Lewis October 13th, 2008, 04:49 AM

"chemicals"
"terrorist"
"drugs"
These are the big three I'm looking forward to hearing the responses from.

Thanks for the ideas guys. Actualy Lewis, I hypothesize those sorts of things are going to be the in the responces to my "legitimate words" which I will correlate to the number
of "scary words" said by people. Like when I say "homemade distiller" their first thought might be "moonshining" or when I say "ammonia fumes" they might think "meth lab"
as the government has conditioned their sheeple minds to do.
Nobody in my school will think much of it. They'll just think I'm a conspiracy theorist or something, most already do. The results only really matter to me and you guys. I'll
even put the forum in my conclusion as the part of the scientific community that this sort of stuff actually relates or applies to. "The people who actually give a shit" as my
teacher put it. Not that it matters anyway. Its graded on how correctly you did your report anyway, not by how stupid or important your hypothesis and/or conclusion are.
DarkWrath October 14th, 2008, 12:44 PM
I'm pretty eager to see the results. I'm almost tempted to do a survey of my own when I have the time , but this has to wait until after my exams.
You should also ask those people a few questions about social status , income , political orientation and studies... It should yield some interesting results.

This sounds like it would be an interesting project to conduct on a street corner, just ask Joe and Jane Blow (by the way Jane is a VERY Friendly girl :) ) their opinion of the
words, or try a couple locations (Lower Class neighbourhood, Middle Class, Upper Class, etc.) combined with your school, and please tell us how cowed the general populace is
when your done, should be good for a laugh.

Well, I cant seem to find JACK SHIT for background research for this project. All I've got so far is the vague/loose hypothesis and procedure I told you guys, and without a little
information about my topic (something it seems nobody but the fine people here have ever even thought about) I can't seem to refine it down very much. Aside from simply
needing background research for my write up, I don't know how I'm going to define "bad" words and "good" words.
I've searched google and infotrac (a web based library of EVERYTHING) for things like snap judgment, free association, profiling, change in American society since 9/11 and
many other things, and I still cant find anything related to my topic. Maybe I'm just to stupid to use the internet.
Basically if I don't get this shit together I'm going to scrap the idea and come up with a new experiment (with only 2 weeks left to complete my project). Sorry guys.
If anybody has any ideas to save my project (some background info), it's gladly welcome. Otherwise, I'm probably going to do some stupid behaviorism experiment to make
myself stop procrastinating homework. Or something less lame. Once again, sorry for getting your hopes up or anything.

My last post was quite negative, I was starting to believe I was really going to have to scrap the project. I came up with some stuff for background information, and I've got
sort of a hypothesis and procedure now. I'll check them out with my psychology teacher and if she thinks I'm getting toward something write up worthy then I'll finish the
project, if not then its like I said before. I'm using the words you guys posted, as well as some I'm coming up with myself. Now that we have a set of "negative target words" I
need a set of "positive target words" to contrast them too. By positive target words I mean words I expect will create a positive response from participants like: Gasoline=Road
Trips as opposed to negative responses like: Gasoline=Arson. Just for the record I'll put gasoline as a positive word, even though I expect the responses I receive for it will be
mostly positive despite the fact a bottle of gasoline (if used properly) can cause just as much damage and is just as "scary" as say... a bottle of nitromethane.
I will also throw in some "neutral target words" that won't be included in my data, they will just be there to throw off the participants and keep them from skewing results by
noticing a pattern in the words.
So if anybody feels like helping, start spitting out a list of "positive target words" you would like to see contrasted to my "negative target words". If you have more suggestions
for "negative target words" also, please label them as such so I don't get the groups mixed up.
BTW before somebody attacks me for a spoon feeding request (even though its the water cooler), please try to recognize this is nothing of that sort, I'm simply trying to get
input from my peers in this scientific community for an experiment we would all like to see happen. Right?
Attached is what I have so far for background, hypothesis, and procedure.
Alexires October 23rd, 2008, 07:38 AM

Instead of judging their associations yourself get them to tell you how the word made them feel, after each word.
Eg.
You: Gasoline.
Them: Arson. Angry.
That way, you have less analysis to do and there is less error from you interpreting.
rangegal October 23rd, 2008, 10:37 AM

Brilliant idea Alexires! I was previously faced with the problem of trying to come up with a spectrum of how negative and positive a word is. My teacher said it would be a good
idea since it would make it a little more quantitative and a little less qualitative, but I figured it would be pretty hard to come up with specific definitions for positive and
negative that would work for all my words. Plus I don't see what the difference is between me making a judgment about words and my classmates making qualitative
observations about the participants in their experiments. But your idea removes that problem! Thanks dude.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Human violence and dictatorships!
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Damnit, stop quoting whole posts. How about you use wonderful things called "links" instead?
Hinckleyforpresident
I moved it here so we can stop trashing the Obama topic.
Look, you keep trying to tell me that if the government tries to take away your weapons they'll somehow start to "control you", but what you don't realize is that they are
already doing that! I'm pretty sure most of the people with guns wouldn't have the guts to pull the trigger against thousands of soldiers that would protect the government. I
say take away the weapons, take away the military!
Here's a fact: all the countries in the world are building defensive systems. Why bother if no one is going to attack? (everyone on defense no one on assault). Why not just
take away all the weapons? Besides I doubt the first thing Obama is going to do is become a dictator, you had your flowers and Bushes things couldn't get any worse.
-=HeX=- October 20th, 2008, 02:24 PM

Freelancer: the government cant turn on its people if they have guns simply because they know that at least some of the gun owners will fight back. They also, in the case of
america, know that the civilians will in some form eight back, and with civilian owned firearms the resistance will have access to many many guns.
The bit about defence mode... Is just pacifist talk.
Gerbil October 20th, 2008, 03:25 PM

Hex: fight back against what? If you think that you're going to suddenly wake up one day to see the SS marching down the street, you're mistaken.
Dictatorial governments only work if the population support them and carries them into power. The best way to control people is to have them on your side. Therefore, it
stands to reason that if the US government does become truly totalitarian, the "gun owners" will be in complete support (and those that aren't will be too frightened or
pragmatic to speak out).
Sure, you might get some sort of insurgency or rebellion, but what good are a few people going to do against a nationalised state? The public, who would be conscripted into
the army and 'freedom militias', would more or less despise them as traitors and terrorists, and ironically, they might even give the government more power and control. An
enemy, especially an internal one, can be used as a scapegoat for problems, a reason for extra measures of control, and something for people to vent their hate and frustration
on. Try reading 1984.
Unfortunately, the best way to defend your liberty is to go somewhere that it's respected.

I say take away the weapons, take away the military!
Here's a fact: all the countries in the world are building defensive systems. Why bother if no one is going to attack? (everyone on defense no one on assault). Why not just
take away all the weapons?
Noble sentiment, impossibly naive, but noble. People have weapons because its natural, even the most harmless of living things have weapons, skunks have "mace", bees
have "knives", plants have "posions", and because without any defences what you have will be taken by those who want what you have, why should people or nations be any
different, the second a nation disarms they will be taken over by a nation that didn't, and I kind of like the stuff I got. :)
Unfortunately, the best way to defend your liberty is to go somewhere that it's respected.
But the only place it is respected is one where the people have a culture of liberty, where liberty is integral to the social fabric, and frankly I see that being assulted everywhere
in the world, so where can you go?
3287 October 20th, 2008, 08:42 PM

They won't take away guns, if they have two brain cells between them. There's no need to. There is no first-world country that is facing rebellion right now, the societies won't
harbor the idea.
http://www.federalobserver.com/print.php?aid=1874
FreeLancer October 21st, 2008, 09:24 AM

skunks have "mace", bees have "knives", plants have "posions"...
Nice so you're living in 1000 BC? What you're saying that we don't have the intelligence to live without weapons? And besides I thought 90% of the people thought we were
somehow "above" animals, being able to think and all?
I don't believe that but still, some people do.
Hirudinea (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=101768&postcount=34) & kepiblanc (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?

I live in the central Europe (mighty close to the dangerous eastern Europe you're talking about) and haven't seen anything like that, you clearly don't know what you're talking
about.
No money no shelter? What is that? I don't blame you for thinking like that, I blame the system. I'm not going to answer that here, it would take to much space just read The
Zeitgeist movement (http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/DesigningtheFuture.pdf)
kepiblanc I'm not going to even reply to your post, because we've been through that.
Joxer October 21st, 2008, 12:13 PM

Sure, you might get some sort of insurgency or rebellion, but what good are a few people going to do against a nationalised state?
Then we (I) will die. And so what?

You want to live forever?
Name 1 revolution that was started by a majority.

@Freelancer
Why are you here? Are you just trolling or something? Almost no one here is going to agree with you, so you're just going to piss people off. Do you think that you will be able
to convince people to be pacifists on the explosives and weapons forum?
People who say "Get rid of all weapons, get together in peace, smoke a joint, and play drums" don't really have an accurate view of the world. You see, in theory it may seem
wonderful for everyone to just be happy with each other in a violence free world. This however, is fantasy land. In the real world, people are desperate. People will do
anything to better their situation. If you don't believe me, go try telling a crackhead that you have lots of money. See what he has to say/do to you :rolleyes:.
And I don't think disarming the world is a very smart thing to do either. There will always be someone who is willing to hurt people to get what he wants. Arms need to be
present to eliminate such threats.
Then we get to the legality of arms. Like others have said many times before me, the second amendment was written so that the people could fight the government if it got
tyrannical. I don't know how much you know about history, but the American revolution started with irritated farmers fighting what they saw as oppression. More and more
people started to side with these "radicals" as the war drove on, and in the end a bunch of peasants defeated one of the best trained and funded armies in the world.
FreeLancer October 21st, 2008, 02:21 PM

@Freelancer
Why are you here?
I love pyrotechnics.
The second amendment was written by too many paranoid people, that's what I think about it. I mean look at all the times in Europe that the "government" (leaders) wanted
to have all the power. And we didn't have the 2. amendment but still freed ourselves didn't we?

The second amendment was written by too many paranoied people, that's what I think about it.
The founding fathers being paranoid?! Are you fucking nuts? They just fought off an oppressive government, they were trying to make sure tyranny wouldn't come back as
easily.
I meen look at all the times in Europe that the "government" (leaders) wanted to have all the power. And we didn't have the 2. amendment but still freed ourselves didn't we?
No, not really. People without guns got their asses kicked. People with guns took out the tyranny. It's people who aren't armed who always seem to be needing the rescuing.
FreeLancer October 21st, 2008, 04:27 PM

That's not true, People without weapons don't need rescuing, we were holding out just fine.
2 questions.
1.If weapons are there to fight opression, why didn't you guys use them against the patriot act?
2. I doubt very much YOU would have the guts to start shooting your little weapons against the military that would naturally be on the side of the government, or am I wrong?

That's not true, People without weapons don't need rescuing, we were holding out just fine.
Oh you where? Tell me, how did you like the panzer divisions tearing up your homeland? How was it when Belgrade got the shit bombed out of it?
And please, how did pacifism liberate Yugoslavia from the Nazi's?
It didn't. It required the military defeat of Germany, not just protesting or complaining.
1.If weapons are there to fight opression, why didn't you guys use them against the patriot act?
2. I doubt very much YOU would have the guts to start shooting your little weapons against the military that would naturally be on the side of the government, or am I wrong?
It is a very serious deal to just "start shooting". Hastily rushing into any sort of revolution is just plain retarded.
Gerbil October 21st, 2008, 06:22 PM

Then we (I) will die. And so what?
Then get off your ass and go shoot up your local barracks. Everyone might die someday, but I'd prefer to live as long as possible.
Dying for a cause should be a last resort. Make your opponents die for theirs.
Name 1 revolution that was started by a majority.
Revolutions aren't "started" by people. They're caused by long periods of discontent, and are finally triggered by a tiny spark. Successful ones also tend to have the support of
the military.
Look at what the islamists are doing in Iraq etc at the moment. They're using hit and run tactics similar to what's being described here, and the US hasn't exactly been brought
to its knees.
I'm not saying that trying to overthrow an oppressive state is pointless, just that the people who think they're some invincible macho Rambo are living in lala land.
I meen look at all the times in Europe that the "government" (leaders) wanted to have all the power. And we didn't have the 2. amendment but still freed ourselves didn't we?
No, you didn't. If you're talking about WW2, then the Allies freed you.
Winter Wolf October 21st, 2008, 06:56 PM

No money no shelter? What is that? I don't blame you for thinking like that, I blame the system. I'm not going to answer that here, it would take to much space just read The
Zeitgeist movement (http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/DesigningtheFuture.pdf)
Yeah, about that... I watched the Zeitgeist addendum, and I've read the documents you posted by Mr. Fresco. Looks and sounds to me like just another starry eyed dreamer
who's head is so far up in the clouds that he's no earthly good. If I recall correctly Plato said much that was similar in preface to his The Republic. Plato said that (and I
paraphrase here) that if everyone were a philosopher then no one would be poor or hungry. Well the human species has seen quite a bit of water under the bridge since Plato
penned The Republic, and it appears that we are no closer to being a collective of philosophers now than in his day.
Human nature has not apparently changed much, if any, since Plato's day, and I suspect that not much will change any time in the near future. People have needs and desires
and want happens because sometimes (contrary to Mr. Jaques Fresco's idea) necessary resources are lacking. How to solve the problem of scarcity of resources? Mr. Fresco's
solution, apparently, is that we all just learn to share. Nice idea, and it sounds just lovely; when it's been attempted the results have always been... well, less than spectacular.
Joxer October 21st, 2008, 07:27 PM

Then get off your ass and go shoot up your local barracks.
Why? They haven't done anything to me or anyone else that I am aware of. Not yet, anyway.
They're using hit and run tactics similar to what's being described here, and the US hasn't exactly been brought to its knees.
We have been "brought to our knees", right now. Have you been paying attention to the markets lately?
I'm not saying that trying to overthrow an oppressive state is pointless, just that the people who think they're some invincible macho Rambo are living in lala land.
I never said I was an "invincible rambo". I am quite mortal, and I really do not like violence. You are making straw man arguments.
Revolutions aren't "started" by people. They're caused by long periods of discontent, and are finally triggered by a tiny spark.
This country is a tinderbox awaiting that spark. That tiny spark is people starting that revolution. And the British army wasn't exactly supportive of our 1st revolution.
thelasttrueone October 21st, 2008, 11:00 PM

This country is a tinderbox awaiting that spark. That tiny spark is people starting that revolution. And the British army wasn't exactly supportive of our 1st revolution.
You can't be exactly sure of that, their tactics seemed like they wanted us to win, maybe their commanders had a Freudian agreement with the terrorists... I mean freedom
fighters:rolleyes:.
But to be serious, I am now addressing freelancer. Anyone who wants to give up their gun rights is insane. When so many evil men are armed, isn't it the duty of the good
ones to fight back? Clearly you value life over whatever ideals you may (or may not) have and this is ridiculous, life comes and goes but ideas can survive for eons. I want to
add that I think anyone who is questioning why freelancer is here needs to shut their trap, I welcome opposing viewpoints and so should you. Opposing viewpoints allow us to
see why the others are so wrong when we shut them down :D .

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
-=HeX=- October 22nd, 2008, 04:10 AM

Some seem to think its pointless grabbing your rifle and starting out. I do not. I see it as extremely fruitful. Here in Ireland one man fired the shot that started the glorious
revolution. That man was Dan Breen. When he got his men to assault the local barracks they sparked the tinderbox and all hell broke loose. More barracks were done in, next
thing we know its a full scale war. All you Need is fuel, a spark, and enough fuel to keep it going. As the government becomes more brutal the people join you.
FreeLancer October 22nd, 2008, 06:48 AM

Gerbil: Oh yeah? Name the countries on the Allied side!
America? Oh yeah and in the early days of the war, they DIDN'T sell weapons to the nazis? Face it, you boys were there for the money and nothing else, just like now in Iraq.
I'm not saying America didn't do anything to help, they did a lot, but you're not the only cause we won the war!
Don't talk about yugoslavia. No one at that time had GUNS and RIFLES in their houses! But we managed to get them to free ourselves from the nazis didn't we!? That's what
I'm saying. I never said guns weren't used to free ourselves, just that we were able to get weapons even though we don't and didn't have the second amendment.
Talking about fighting the government with your weapons. Even if you planed a lot I simply don't think most of the Americas finest (eaters, since you do have a lot of those
people) are prepared to fire a single shot at ANY time at an army man.
Not that I have anything against overweight people. Well with 26.6% in 2007 people that don't have the ability to do anything too physical and with say 60% that simply
wouldn't want to fight you're down to 13.4% of the population ready to fight! Oh but wait how many out of that 100% are army man?
If you've got a shot gun aiming at the military, and they've got tanks, armors, and fully automatic rifles aiming at you, I don't think the fight would last very long, so you're 2.
amendment is in fact useless.
iHME October 22nd, 2008, 09:37 AM

I want to derail this thread, as I hate flame wars, yes this is the water cooler.
I would rather not see shit like this on a forum like roguesci, it reminds me of inferior forums and boards.
Hinckleyforpresident October 22nd, 2008, 10:47 AM

I agree with IHME, this thread is turning into crap very quickly.
End of conversation.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > R evolution
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3287 October 22nd, 2008, 06:36 PM

I think it goes without saying that anything in this thread is pure theory. If anyone went out and did any of it, they'd be quite
foolish and more than a bit dead.
The subject of resista nce to dictatorships quickly grew into a discussion of revolution. The thread, rightfully so, was closed due
to the argum ents it sparked. However, I would like to continue the conversation.
Note that this is NO T a b o u t t h e u s e f u l n e s s o f w e a p o n s o r t h e v a l u e o f t h e S e c o n d Am endment. This is about how re volutions

start and how they are carried out. Besides, anyone who calls Jefferson paranoid isn't welcom e to discuss these things... :p
rangegal October 22nd, 2008, 07:54 PM

How does it feel to be on the governments "terrorist" watch-list? lol...
I once had the idea to start a whole forum about the next (theoretical) Am erican revolution, and how it wou ld be carried out.
T h e n s o m e b o d y r e m i n d e d m e that it would quickly be shut down and everybody associated with it would be water boarded till
we told who was supplying our chemica l weapons. Or som ething like that.
This post isn't to deter such talk, just to remind everybody once more ho w "dangerous" such "scary" talk ca n b e . K e e p i t s a f e /
s m a rt guys.
festergrump October 22nd, 2008, 08:28 PM

W hile theoretical discussion is good food for the brain a nd all, it's not wise to start such to pics "openly" on a set of forum s
which also deal with weapons and explosives. Besides, if you know that the other topic which you based this thread off of was
shut down by a Mod, why reha sh what will probably result in a shutdown of this one, too?
Your disclaim er that a certain troll (which name shall not be m entioned by me) isn't invited to participate in this thread was a
nice touch, however. :) Som ehow I think it lives only to argue rediculous ideas with whom ever will give it any resistance
whatsoever. It's very existance here is a virtual length of rope, and like all trolls, it will find that rope just irresistable enough to
hang itself with. Very soon, by m y calculations.
3287 October 22nd, 2008, 09:53 PM

If th e m o d s h a v e a p r o b l e m , they can shut it down. They run the place, so I don't have any right to go into t h e i r h o u s e a n d
complain about their rules.
H o w e v e r , s o m e m ajor questions were raised. For exam ple, it's true that a bombing or a shooting will not set off a revolution.
In fact, they seem to be surefire ways to marginalize your cause and force people further into the loving arm s of their
g o v e r n m e n t . W hat is it that triggers a revolution, then?
Another question that intrigues me is, why have we only seen arguably "libertarian" revolutions in one brief stretch of history
during the 18th-early 19th century? "Freedom" is an ide al often thrown about whe n overthrowing a governm ent, but only in the
period around the late 1700's did we a ctually see people fighting for sm aller, rather than different, government.
Lewis October 23rd , 2008, 01:28 AM

T h e o t h e r t h r e a d e n d e d b e c a u s e i t b e c a m e a p lace of ignorance. As long as we can not bicker, I see no reason there would be
an issue.
rebellion
This is not a word we should b e afraid of uttering! I would be tempted to say that this entire forum, and rogue scien ce at large
is devoted to a sort o f rebellion.
Our discourse is perhaps in deviation from what the ave rage citizen has on his m i n d , b u t a s h a s b e e n s a i d b e f o r e , w e a r e n o t
criminals. The comm unity has done nothing wrong, and we will continue to discuss what we please in a professional m anner.
If I've stepped over the line h ere, I'm sure someone will do m e the courtesy of letting m e know!
festergrump October 23rd , 2008, 02:53 AM

I'll give you the courtesy of telling you that it takes only two peo ple to talk about carrying out something deem ed "illegal" by
TPTB for it to be considered a conspira cy to comm it such an act (if the act is a felony, so is talking about how to go about it). If
you'd like to talk about such things and have b inding and printed evidence of it in a court of law near you, they'd be m uch
better carried out in a site which does NOT toss the m eans to carry out such acts into the till, for everyone's own good. Is that
s o h ard to understand?
If m y word isn't good enough for you for som e r e a s o n , w h y d o n ' t y o u P M M e g a a n d a s k h i m p e r s o n a l l y ? Do you think Mega
would agree that your discussion, theoretical or not, is worth brin ging his 11 years of building this site to even the possibility of
an infraction of "illegality" (m anufactured or not)? Think again. His efforts here are 100% legal as much as they are free. He
d o e s n ' t n e e d t h e l i k e s o f p e o p l e w h o w a n t t o d u m p on his efforts to do just that, because it's the bigfish th ey'll want to fry, and
he's never any part of such nonsense...
T h e " O verthrow the Governme nt, Dude !" threads have all been started before, an d locked before, and for this very reason. I
s p e a k f r o m h a v i n g b e e n w i t n e s s t o m ost all of them , if not every single one.
W ise up, okay?
If you really want a "Take Over the __________ Governm ent" Rebellion discussion that won't get locked, deleted, or have you
b a n n e d f r o m the site, there are plenty of free forum hosting sites out there to call your own. Pick one and have at it, I say.
W hy does it have to be HERE where on ly harm to R oguesci can becom e of it? W here's the tradeoff for Mega or the rest of us
who enjoy this site for what it is? W here's the actual GOO D it will do?
Like I said in THIS (h ttp://www.roguesci.org/theforum /showthrea d . p h p ? p = 1 0 1 8 9 4 # p o s t 1 0 1 8 9 4 ) p o st:

I'd start look ing into survival sites and m a y b e m ilitia sites to speak more freely about this, honestly. They'd be way ahead of
t h e g a m e (1) and it wouldn't be any real conflict of interest which might get the RS taken down (2).
Take it to Mega or at least a Mod if you think I'm wrong. It's just poor sense.
Alexires October 23rd , 2008, 03:07 AM

This thread walks a fine line. I know you aren't criminals, but we don't want to bring any heat down o n T h e F o r u m . O t h e r
threads like this have been closed in the past because they m ight have done the same.
Perhaps this thread could analyse past revolutions/rebe llions and see wh y the succeeded/failed?
R e g a r d l e s s , d o n o t l e t this thread get like "Active demonstration resistan ce ideas" thread, otherwise I will close it.
Joxer October 23rd , 2008, 05:06 AM

I'd like to he ar, from someone that was there, about Tet '68, and how and why that offensive failed. I have m y own i d e a s ,
n a m ely the VC threw their strengths into the trash and fought in the open, but I was not there and I never served.
Cobalt.45 October 23rd , 2 0 0 8 , 0 2 : 2 8 P M

about Tet '68, and how and why that offensive failed.A failure in that it didn't win the war for the north, but it wasn't a total
failu re- it fucking shocked the US big-tim e and gave the anti war left amm o that was used till the end.
But I believe the failure, m ilitarily-speaking, was because the so uth populace didn't rise up against the US and support the
north. The north knew that US occupation was hated, but overestim ated the south's response when the north hit.
Joxer October 23rd , 2 0 0 8 , 0 3 : 1 2 P M

That could be true. I have heard that before.
Another thing I heard , and I believe it goes along with what you said, was that Giap saw the writing on the wall and knew he
would win, and didn't want a bunch of peasants with AKs running around the country after we left.
H e u s e d t h e m up, knowing wh at the outcom e would be.

It kills 2 birds with on e s t o n e .
spat Novem ber 5th, 2008, 03:51 AM

I kind of like d the idea of discussing why and how revolutions start, as an abstract concept. Obviously it is because people
h a v e b e e n p u s h e d " t o o f a r " b u t t h e r e i s a l s o a h u g e m argin there. The US founding fathers had it *very* easy when they
d e c i d e d t h e y h a d " t o o m u c h " c o m pared to other populations tha t just sat there and suffered (Stalinist Russia and Mao's China
for instance). The question is *why* the Am e r i c a n r e v o l u t i o n g a i n e d e n o u g h m o m entum to pass the "couple crackpots" stag e
w h e n d o u b t l e s s h u n d r e d s o f o thers in far m ore oppressive environm ents couldn't.
It's also possible that in a fun ctioning dem ocracy the forces that would allow a revolution to succeed would work within the
system to correct the oppression, and that if the system couldn't self correct then the public support that would allow a
revo lution to succeed sim ply doesn't exist. That isn't to say that all the a ctions to create that atmo sphere would be necessarily
lega l, just that "setting the stage" for a revolution would correct the problems without *actually* having to fight it.
Kaydon Novem ber 5th, 2008, 02:42 PM

I a m done with hypotheticals.
Hinckleyforpresident Novem ber 5th, 2008, 03:20 PM

I a m done with hypotheticals.
T h e n t a k e i t s o m ewhere else.
W e will not have people publicly plotting illegal activities here.

W atch it.
I respect your position, but yo u're not about to start that shit with m e when you know that I know how this works.
And all I said was I'm done with hypotheticals, I'm not gonna divulge into specifics. I know the protocol.

W atch it.
Ex-fucking-cuse m e ?
I respect your position, but yo u're not about to start that shit with m e when you know that I know how this works.
And all I said was I'm done with hypotheticals, I'm not gonna divulge into specifics. I know the protocol.
There will not be any plotting of any re volutions here. End of story. Discussing why they happen, how they happen, tactics in
them, etc. is fine so long as e verything stays hypothetical or historical. But there will be absolutely no plots.
If you have any problems with this, bring it up with me via PM.
shooter3 Novem ber 14th, 2008, 08:31 PM
The "who" is found in the "Contra man ual" and is valid for any Governm ent, any where. The "how" is found in "Unintended
c o n s e q u e n s e s " b y J o h n R o s s . T h e r u l e s o f e n g a g e m ent; Any guilty party, any where, any tim e, but NO i n n o c e n t p e o p l e g e t
h a r m e d . T h a t leaves out explosives, for the m ost part. And you don't fight the Arm y, or Police. They would be on our side, for
the m ost part, just don't screw with the ir pay check.
Justification? Start with the "Declaration of Inde pendence" and 20th century history. Do you want to be like one of the
170,000,000 victim s that Socialism killed since Lennon?
3287 Novem ber 16th, 2008, 07:49 PM

I don't know if conditions are right for that sort of thing in any First-W orld country. You can't pull a revolutio n out of nowhere,
and you need certain things to make it work. There's a reason the French revolution failed but the American revolution
succeeded.
I'll tell you what it is when I figure it out. :)
Incidentally, I'm read i n g a b o o k , C oup d'Etat, by Edward Luttwak. Interesting study of the coup, but I haven't been able to find
a n o n l i n e c o p y . D o e s R o g u e S c i h a v e o n e , o r s h ould I scan a cop y?

3287 - As far as I know, it is not on the FTP. Feel free to upload it, and if you don't have an FTP account already, ask tm p for
one and then upload it.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > "Chem ical Dem onstrations" by
Shakashiri
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Khalnath October 24th , 2 0 0 8 , 1 0 : 2 6 P M

My chemistry professor lent m e " C h e m ical Dem onstrations: A Handbook for Teachers of C hemistry" by Bassam Z . S h a k h a s h iri.
It is a series of four volum e s a b o u t c h e m ical reactions chosen essentially for their fun factor, intended to be used in
d e m onstrations to en gage student attention. Has anyone else read it before? It contains synthesis instructions for small
batches of nitrogen triiodide a nd aceto ne peroxide with appropriate safety warnings. I don 't have easy acce ss to a docum e n t
s c a n n e r , b u t I c o u l d p o s t s o m e o f m y favorite entries if there is interest, as the book is m ostly tex t with a few sim p l e d i a g r a m s
and occasion al chem ical structures.
iHME October 25th , 2008, 11:31 AM

If you have a digital camera you could just take some pictures of the pages and post them .
The pictures are usually readable, but not in the same league as proper scans.
You could also place a glass plate on top of the book to "flatten" it out for better picture taking.
ChippedHammer October 25th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 1 : 1 7 P M

If you have the tim e and just a normal scanner slowly scan it, do a few pages every now a nd then.
Sounds like a interesting book to have.
Khalnath October 25th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 5 : 0 3 P M

I have no scanner at all, and only a ca mera phone that is not re ally up to the task.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > R andomness....
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Alexires Novem ber 1st, 2008, 02:59 AM

W e all knew it. Really, we did.
Not only is RogueSci.org the a rchetype for E&W inform ation on the internet, Mega's hard work in the Chem L a b i s b e i n g
referenced in books.
That is right. Various synth's by Mega have been referenced in books.
Don't believe m e ? L o o k h e r e ( h t t p : / / b o o k s . g o o g l e . c o m . a u / b o o k s ? i d = j _ A D 8 D L y y B Q C&pg=PA133&dq=roguesci) and here (http:/

/ b o o k s . g o o g l e . c o m . a u / b o o k s ? i d = x _ p R AAAAMAAJ&dq=roguesci&q=roguesci&pgis=1#search) and here (http://
b o o k s . g o o g l e . c o m . a u / b o o k s ? i d = z A J U AAAAMAAJ&dq=roguesci).
Congratulations, Mega.
iHME Novem ber 1st, 2008, 10:20 AM

Now this is awesom e . G o o d j o b M e g a a n d c o n g r a t u l a t i o n s .
crazywhiteguy Novem ber 1st, 2008, 02:29 PM

I only get a m e s s a g e saying the viewing lim i t h a s b e e n r e a c h e d . C a n s o m e o n e s u m marize for those of us who cant read it?
Cobalt.45 Novem ber 1st, 2008, 02:46 PM

C a n s o m e o n e s u m m arize for those of us who cant read it?One references making IPN in re rocket fuel. The paper is titled The
Conversion of Liquid Rocket Fuels By Wolfgang Spyra, Kay.
Another dealt w/nanostructured m aterials. Paper titled: Synthesis, Characterization and Properties of Energetic/reactive
N a n o m aterials: Symp o s i u m H e l d D e c e m ber 1-4, 2003, Boston, Massachusetts, U.S.A.
By R onald D. Armstrong, Mate rials R esearch So ciety, Materials Research Society Meeting P u b l i s h e d b y M a t e r i a l s R e s e a r c h
Society, 2003.
And the third was this paper: Detection and Rem e d i a t i o n T e c h n o l o g i e s f o r M i n e s a n d M i n e like Targets X: 28 March-1 April,
2005, O rlando, Florida, U SA
By R ussell S. Harmon , J. Thomas Broach, John H. Holloway, Ball Aerospace & Technologies C orporation, Society of P hoto-
optical Instrumentation Engineers, Society of photo-optical instrumentation engineers, Ball Aerospace & Technologies
Corporation (USA)
Contributor Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corporation
Published by SPIE, 2005
Original from the U niversity of Michigan
It was unclear exactly what was being reference d in the 2nd. and 3rd. papers.
Alexires Novem ber 1st, 2008, 08:37 PM

From the second link, the pag e being referenced is:
http://roguesci.org/m e g a l o m a n i a / e x p l o / H N I W .htm l
Don't know a bout the third one. Apparently the page contents are "restricted" but I'm guessing (from looking at the contents)
it is probably the PETN synth.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > R e m e m ber, rem e m b e r , t h e 5 t h
of Novem ber.
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slarter Novem ber 4th, 2008, 02:28 PM

I got this in an email from a friend and thought it was humerous. There is a lesson to be learned from this also... Keep your
m outh shut! ;)
Gunpowder, Treason and Plot
W ith the imm inent arrival of the 5th November I thought it was about tim e for an educational account of what this bonfire night
shenanigans was really all about. Read on for a humerous, but historically accurate, accou n t o f s o m e g o i n g s on in 1605 - all in
verse.
Gunpowder, Treason and Plot.

Copyright Keith Sheppard, 1996
My story begins quite a long time ago

In the spring t i m e o f s i x t e e n - o h - f i v e .
W h e n s o m e angry young m e n v o w e d t h e k i n g h a d t o g o ,
They could no longer bear him alive.
T h e r e a s o n t h a t t e m pers were running so hot

Am o n g s t s o m e of King Jam e s m inions
W as that he and a few of his subjects had got
W ild ly different religious opinions.
The king was a protestant man through and through,

And he drove all the catholics mad,
For his treatment of such folk, between me and you,
W as really a little bit bad.
T h e l e a d i n g d i s s e n t e r w a s o n e R obert C a t e s b y .
His friends gathered round him and cried:
'W e a g r e e J a m e s m u s t g o , s o how long must the wait be?'
Mr C atesby stood up and replied...
'O h p l e a s e d o r e m e m ber the fifth of Novem ber,'

'For that's when the e vil King James'
'W ith his parliam ent sits. We shall blow them to bits.'
'W e shall send the whole lot u p in flam e s . '
'It's a gem o f a plan, but there's danger, that's why'

'It's essentia l that nobody talks.'
'And a g u n p o w d e r e x p e r t i s n e e d e d , s o I '
'Have recruited some guy they call Fawkes.'
S o C a t e s b y a n d h i s g r o u p o f l i k e m inded fellah s,
W ho all bore the king the sam e malice,
Put their plan into action by renting som e cellars
W hich ran under Westm inster Palace.
Then into this pit the conspirators stowed

Quite a number of barrels of powder.
It was m o r e t h a n e n o u g h s o t h a t , s h o u l d i t e x p l o d e ,
As b angs go, there are few wo uld be louder.
T h e n , f o r t h e d u r a t i o n o f s u m m er recess,
The gunpowder plotters dispersed,
Believing the start of Novem ber was best
For powder kegs doing their worst.
It was whilst the assassins were biding their tim e

'Til parliam e n t n e x t w a s i n s e s s i o n ,
That one of their num ber com mitted the crim e
Of careless unwise indiscretion.
It seems Francis Tresham's own brother in law

W as a mem ber of parliament so
Of course Frankie warned him 'm y lord I implore,'
'W h e n t h e h o u s e r e c o n v e n e s , p l e a s e d o n ' t g o . '
'I hope you won't think that there's som ething awry,'
'It's just that I think that it's best'
'If you let the first day of the session go by.'
'You look tired and in need of a rest.'
Young Frankie's relation, by nam e L o r d M o n t e a g l e ,

I'm sorry to say, sme lt a rat.
'I'm sure,' he said, 'Frank's up to something illegal,'
'Else why should he speak out like that?'
Suspicions thus roused, on the eve of the day

That parliament met once again,
A se arch of the buildings was put unde r way
By som e o f K i n g J a m e s ' b e s t m en.
They searched and they searched to see what could be found.

They searched the whole place top to bottom .
If only they'd done it the othe r way round,
Then much quicker would they have got 'em .
For down in the cellars, am ongst all the rats,

W as where the king's m e n a p p r e h e n d e d
The unfortun ate Fawkes and his gunpowder vats,
W ith which the king's life could be ended.
In those days, of course, people had no idea

Of a criminal's right to be silent.
Their questioning methods we re sometim es, I fear,
A little bit gruesome and viole nt.
And so it is only a m atter of tim e

Before our friend Guy Fawkes confesse s,
Revealing the nature of his would-be crim e
And accom plices nam e s a n d a d d r e s s e s .
So that was the end of the vio l e n t s c h e m e s

Of C a t e s b y a n d W inter and Wright
And others whose ma rk on our history, it seems,
W as giving u s bonfire night.
S o p l e a s e d o r e m e m ber the fifth of No vem ber,

Gunpowder, treason and plot,
W h e n t h e g u y they called Guy tried to blow them sky high,
All that parliamentarian lot.
iHME Novem ber 4th, 2008, 04:10 PM

Now this is a humorous and educational story, but sure everyone knows to keep ones m o u t h s h u t ? A n d d o t h e i r d e e d s a l o n e .
Yafmot Novem ber 5th, 2008, 04:39 AM

I t ' s s o h a r d t o a s s e m ble a reliable crew these days. One can only "HOPE" for a "C HANGE." Maybe by January 20th. Maybe
Chuck Norris and the Governator can put som ething together. Or m a y b e s o m e g u ys from T a m pa.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Nader calls Obam a an "Uncle
T o m ," Fox News offended.
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http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo
Hilarious.
Lewis Novem ber 5th, 2008, 11:51 PM

I m ust be com pletely m issing the poin t. W hat was so scandalous about the term "uncle Tom "? Wa s is not sim ply one politician
criticizing another, as they have for all of history?
Apparently opposing the hero is a card inal sin now. :cool:
tmp Novem ber 6th, 2008, 12:03 AM

Is a term that m e a n s a " h o u s e n i g g e r " w h o a c c o m o d a t e s t h e m aster. In
m odern time s it means a nigger who accom o d a t e s o r e m u l a t e s t h e v a l u e s o f
whites. As an exam ple, a black who believes in conservative values is often
referred to an "Uncle Tom". Nader's rem ark is m eant to show that O b a m a i s n ' t
nearly as liberal as Nader is.
Alexires Novem ber 6th, 2008, 02:02 AM

Not to m ention that e veryone is wonde ring how strong O b a m a ' s r e s o l u t i o n i s g o i n g t o b e . I t i s o n l y b e i n g p i c k e d o u t b e c a u s e
the President-elect is now black.
Loveofchaos Novem ber 6th, 2008, 03:14 AM

W ow that was priceless...
L o o k o n t h a t r e p o r t e r s f a c e m a d e m y day.
For once, Ralph Nader made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
And the repo rter was m a k i n g s u c h a b i g d e a l a b o u t O sa ma..... Sorry! Obam a, being black.... after all, wouldn't want to be a
racist would you....
Overall, Hilarious, thanks for posting this.
hatal Novem ber 6th, 2008, 06:15 AM

I would have would have voted for Nad er (if I were american). The sworn enemy of corporatocracy.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > "Post w hatever crap you w ant" Thread
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Mr Science November 7th, 2008, 03:01 PM

I know it has happened to me in the past where I want to post perhaps a cool link I found or something else, yet I think "it doesn't deserve it's own thread." Well here is the
official thread. :)
For all posts that w on't provoke a long discussion, or simply don't deserve it's ow n thread go here. If something ever turns into a discussion, I can always move the posts into its
ow n new topic. And of course, please no new bies requesting files, and asking UTFSE-esque stupid questions.

Here are a few of my favorite youtube vids:
Bukow ski: Poetry and Motion (http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=r1e5Jeh2Fk0) - Absolutely hilarious. Count how many drinks and cigarettes he goes through for some
amusement. "The writer has no responsibility to you.... Except to jack off in bed alone, and type a good page", "And then I got drunk for ten years".
Robot chicken rap explaining e=mc^2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc7qbAa1LZc)
Cookin' w ith Coolio (http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v= 2sUKmj-OJaw)
Big Brother on Facebook (http://www .youtube.com/watch?v= ZMWz3G_gPhU)
Arab funny slap (http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v= PEpbTlj_LNg)
Zach Galifianakis (http://w ww.youtube.com/w atch?v=oOQboHV3-PI)
Amusing music video redone by Zach Galifianakis (http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=PpwgYsYWwdc)
totenkov November 7th, 2008, 11:53 PM

Hmmm that title seems awfully familiar.........
Alw ays gets me:
http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Fvxqp9Eu4
iHME November 8th, 2008, 08:30 AM

It's totally harmless, you can even drink it
Didn't the US say so about the Agent Orange?

Still, it seems simple to make once the formula is found.
Mr Science November 8th, 2008, 10:44 AM

The w eirdest commercial I have ever seen. :confused::D
http://poststuff2.entensity.net/103108/flash.php?media=laugh.flv
Rbick November 8th, 2008, 01:40 PM

This video is just plain scary:
http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=roFB7bGCAgc
For people who think the 9/11 flights wouldn't have just atomized after hitting a building at 400+ mph:
http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=RKiufIpP7_I
joffe November 8th, 2008, 03:09 PM

This is one of my favorites. If you like ragheads, you're gonna love this one.
http://ww w.liveleak.com/view?i=008_1223668773

Oh, that's a good one!
Fucker thought he was Joe Cool 'till that *BAM*:eek:! You can see how the spaw n gets set back on his ass that the gun shot a round, not a blank.:D

Baby-laugh-alot will fucking rape you in your sleep....

http://ww w.newgrounds.com/portal/view/460854
A very clever and well done song.
Hinckleyforpresident November 9th, 2008, 05:40 AM

"For all your zombie needs"
http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/11-23-07-weapons/Mazka.jpg
Vitalis November 9th, 2008, 06:00 AM

Groovy. Take out those Zombies.
phrankinsteyn November 10th, 2008, 01:24 AM

UK (humorous) links about/for remington raider's, garet trooper's and wanna be's. :)
So watch those w ith the school yard bravado and tough guy talk, this might be w here they learned it, if they are from the UK. :D
http://ww w.arrse.co.uk/w iki/Walting_With_Confidence#Skills_-_Jap-Slappers_Anonymous
http://ww w.arrse.co.uk/w iki/Walt
PMK November 10th, 2008, 11:56 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/7656870.stm
The sheer stupidity of some people just amazes me.

Was going to edit this in, but it's too late now .
Don't think this has been posed anyw here before, at least I can't find it.
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Hey, I need that for Fallout 3. Damn feral ghouls and mole rats move quick once they get up close :)
And w hat is up with the bastards in Arefu? The townpeople are cowering in fear inside their homes because a gang is terrorizing them, their cattle got slaughtered, and now
some boy is missing. I go on the quest to find the boy, and find he has taken up with a damn vampire cult that practices cannabilism and drinks human blood. They murdered
the boys parents and had him locked in isolation while they brainw ashed him into their cult.
I could not talk the leader into letting the boy go, the door is unpickable and unhackable, so I tried to pickpocket him knowing full w ell I would fail. He chaised after me and I
smoked his ass. Then the half dozen of his followers all try to gang rape me at once, but the crimson flow ed when I started lobbing gernades at them.
I get back to Arefu and the damn townspeople attack me too! What the hell?!? I'm the bad guy for killing those w eirdos and the people turn on me after I freed them from the
terror. I'm trying to keep my character good by upping my karma, but I lost a lot with all the murders and thievery.
Even though I failed the quest, I looted so much good equipment from the corpses of the gang that it w as w ell w orth it. Hehe, I scored a flame thrower, battle armor, recon
armor, and the coolest weapon yet, the shishkebab, w hich is a propane powered flaming knife.
OK, it's not the coolest weapon, but it is a weapon I always use. It replaced my ripper, w hich is a chainsaw knife which is w hy I brought this story up because of the picture
above... The fat man would be the coolest weapon. I looted it off a corpse of a Brotherhood of Steel knight right before this giant behometh attacked. The fat man fires mini
nuke shells.
I actually missed the first shot, but as the saying goes: close only counts in horseshoes, handgrnades, and atomic bombs. Since the fat man does fire mini atomics, close w as
good enough to put the frak to the monster.
I love this game. Yesterday I got attacked by mercenaries because a contract is out on me for being "too good." Fortunatly for me a gang of super mutants attacked at the
same time. By the time they got done killing each other only one merc was left, and he stepped on my landmine.
Oh the gore effects in this game are awsome. I remember the first time I casually dropped a grenade into a gaggle of raiders - hacked off limbs and severed heads went flying,
blood spurting everywhere. Oh what fun!
joffe November 11th, 2008, 04:37 AM

I know I'm getting too old when I recognize most, if not all, of the words you use, but don't really know what you're talking about.
But here's some great info on the VAB - I really like the VAB.
http://ww w.armyrecognition.com/europe/France/vehicules_a_roues/VAB/VAB_France_description.htm (http://ww w.armyrecognition.com/europe/France/vehicules_a_roues/

VAB/VAB_France_description.htm)

http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/10-31-08-books/nowning.jpg

Everything we know about AP is wrong, just read this Wonderful advice for w ould be terrorists :D
http://ww w.hyscience.com/archives/2005/11/mother_of_satan.php
486 November 17th, 2008, 10:53 PM

And w hat is up with the bastards in Arefu? The townspeople are cowering in fear inside their homes because a gang is terrorizing them,
They are cannibals, pick the lock on the shed behind one of the houses, also notice that the lady in the house with the shed says "I can't wait to prepare you for dinner." Creepy
huh?

chainsaws on weaponry... gears of war, anyone?
486 November 18th, 2008, 09:09 PM

chainsaws on weaponry... gears of war, anyone?
http://ww w.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=19&t=402350&page=1
The real thing, along with videos, it needs a more pow erful motor. In the video where he cuts a door open it seems very underpowered. Battery life can't be all that great
either...
justanothern00b November 20th, 2008, 12:24 PM

It could certainly use a better motor. How s about just taking a small chainsaw and equipping that? It would w eight a lot, but I'm sure you could modify an existing chainsaw to
do it. Besides, the whole thing (to me, anyways) isn't useful, just cool. It'd be too heavy to operate for too long, and gas is always a concern (the small one I used only had gas
to run for 5 minuets at full throttle). But w hatever. Its still awesome, but the question is, how can you get it to the set-up like Gears of War?
****************************
Do not double post. Be patient and wait for your posts to be reviewed by the moderators.
-=HeX=- November 21st, 2008, 06:16 PM

Hell, on a CW related note, yesterday I inhaled a load of Cl2 gas in chem class due to an accident. Some fool added KMnO4 soln to HCl thinking it was phenolphtalene... I was
beside him doing a titration. I heard a 'What the FUCK!', w as engulfed in the horrid gas, and then gasped, taking in a huge breath of the shit. Next I know I am coughing and
wheezing and blinded. It cleared up after a w hile but for gods sake, its proof of why retards should not be allow ed do chem.
Ah, Mega, Fallout 3 is AMAZING. My PC died when I put in the disk, I installed (it took over a hour) on halloween while off lighting firew orks. When I came back to start the
game up the PC crashed (a blue screen) then it rebooted and had a black screen crash. I took out the disc and THEN the PC started up OK. So I am playing it on my friends PC,
its AMAZING. In megaton I personally killed everyone I met, and back in the vault I somehow kept the BB gun (w hen you have to bail out its lying on a table near the bed) and
shot Aminata's (sp? its the overseers daughter I am trying to name) father, the overseer, in the head using VATS. Somehow on the second shot it killed him! Brilliant stuff...
Hinckleyforpresident November 21st, 2008, 09:47 PM

http://ww w.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=935690573&play= 1
Central bankers talking about what type of "New World Order" should be be created from the ashes of the economic situation.

I have my character at a very high karma level. There is actually still plenty of w anton destruction this way, but I have to watch who I kill. I get more quests and dialog
interactions, w hich is what I w anted from the game. If you start killing everything that moves you always have to look over your shoulder as everyone and their dog comes
after you.
I decided to take the fight to the Talon company mercs rather than let them come at me at their leisure. I have been hunting down their outposts and putting the fuck to them
where they live. These guys have an endless stream of good armor and w eapons from which to repair my stuff to top condition.
I joined the Regulators recently, kinda like the old west marshals. Now I get a finger from the corpses of all evil doers to trade in for caps.
I also ended up slaughtering every one of the slavers in Paradise Falls. From the get go my karma was so high the bastards were one step away from slapping a collar around
my neck. I got in by enslaving a former slaver turned prostitute who left the life. I figured she deserved it and I would not take a karma hit for sending her back to the fold.
I didnt intend to attack them, but the whole time I was planning my strategy on how to do it. I did a test run just to see how they would react if I attacked them, and they
gang raped me w ith a 20-1 shootout, all of them heavily armed and armored.
I pickpocketed a key to the slave pens by accident, I meant to talk to the guy but I w as in sneak mode. After this I started the quest to free the child slaves. I talked to the
head pimp/slaver and ended up blowing his despicable head off (bastard wanted 3000 caps for the kids, bah!). When I stepped outside, inexplicably, but predictably, the rest of
the gang started shooting at me.
Alas, I walked out on the balcony of pimp daddys pad and most of them could not see me, let alone get a good shot. I had a perfect snipers perch from w hich to lay down the
fuck one by one. I placed land mines inside the building leading up the stairs and hallway where the door to the balcony was to keep anyone from flanking me. Most of them
hid in the slaver barricks, allowing me to change the odds in my favor. By the time I was done I gained an entire level (those slavers are 55xp each), a buttload of weapons
and armor, lots of karma, and I completed the quest.
Freeing the kids gave me access to Little Lamplight, the kids tow n. Those little mouthy bastards are lucky you cant kill kids in this game. I am sure the game developers made
them annoying on purpose knowing they cant be killed.
I now acquired Dog Meat and some crazy ghoul as followers. This game gets more hilarious the more I play :) Now I am off to enjoy some ice cold Nuka-Cola while hunting
muties in the downtow n DC ruins!
totenkov November 25th, 2008, 01:20 AM

http://dailymotion.alice.it/video/x3wrzo_fabrication-dune-lampe-triode_tech
Have a sudden impulse to build a triode?
sbovisjb1 November 25th, 2008, 06:42 AM

I have my character at a very high karma level. There is actually still plenty of w anton destruction this way, but I have to watch who I kill. I get more quests and dialog
interactions, w hich is what I w anted from the game. If you start killing everything that moves you always have to look over your shoulder as everyone and their dog comes
after you.
I'm the guy that nukes the tow n for the eccentric business man. I'm also pissed how in Fable 2 you as a child can be shot, but you can't do it to your kids.

http://dailymotion.alice.it/video/x3wrzo_fabrication-dune-lampe-triode_tech
Have a sudden impulse to build a triode?
I sure have. Have had since I first saw that video.

Fucking everything is diy. Supposedly he communicated across the Atlantic with a radio rig using 100% diy gear, including the tubes!
The music also just fits the video.
Hinckleyforpresident November 25th, 2008, 11:52 AM

Just got all this for $100, unfortunately I'm not in a situation w here I can use any of it now :(.
2x Ace Glass 24/40 50ml Erlenmeyer filter flasks w/ stopcock

Pyrex 24/40 250 ml Erlenemeyer filter flask w/stopcock
Ace Glass 24/40 500 ml flask

Pyrex 24/40 500 ml RB flask w ith side well
2x Ace Glass 24/40 200 ml pear flasks
Ace Glass 24/40 50 ml RB flask
2x Pyrex 1000ml RB flask (brand new , in packaging)
Pyrex 24/40 three way adapter

Pyrex 24/40 angled bump trap
Open-ended 24/40 extension tube
Quickfit 24/40 collection tube (for a cow adapter)
5 x Pyrex 24/40 collection tubes (for a cow adapter)
3x Chemglass vacuum traps (brand new, still in packaging from chemglass)
Ace vaccum trap (also brand new and in packaging)
Mettler H54 analytical balance - now I can measure stuff around the house TO .01mg ACCURACY!
Aldrich shock absorbent table for the balance (heavy cast iron w/ rubber feet, probably 60lbs).

Now I'm jealous.
If there w ill ever be a day that you feel that you don't need those anymore, you know w ho to call... :rolleyes:

Now it will cost you more to buy a calibration weight kit than your entire balance is worth :)

Now it will cost you more to buy a calibration weight kit than your entire balance is worth :)
Indeed :(.
The balance w as just $25. I called up Mettler today and got them to email me a PDF of the 25 year old manual. I'm sure it works because I actually drove to pick it all up, and
the guy demonstrated using it for me.
I'd never trust UPS to ship a fragile mechanical device like that.
megalomania November 27th, 2008, 04:32 AM

Balances have to be specially locked dow n when travelling, but I imagine those old ones can tolerate it better than a newer electronic sensor. Of course the newer ones have
been designed with the lockdown features in mind.

There are about four different parts of mine that are capable of being locked dow n. Unfortunately, I only knew of two of them.
I'm not terribly concerned about the unlocked parts because the drive back (300 miles, never trust the postal service) was all flat highway, and I'm a pretty smooth driver.
When I got home nothing was broken or had fallen out of place.
The w orst that will happen is that I just bring it to the university and get it calibrated.
totenkov November 27th, 2008, 01:19 PM

http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue-rVWFadEQ - Obama before he found his true career path? :p

You know , I w as w atching that and I am thinking...... just run the nigger over...
Just reverse till is he standing in front of the car and run his untermensch ass over. Reverse, repeat.
Problem solved.
megalomania November 29th, 2008, 03:06 AM

That guy is the reason why everyone should carry a gun in the car. Remember, if they run it is only because they are looking for cover from which to return fire. Emptying your
entire clip is self defense, reloading is murder ;)

Emptying your entire mag is self defense, reloading is murder ;)
"Clip" is a pet-peeve of mine.
Mr Science November 29th, 2008, 08:11 PM

Winter is coming guys........:D
http://pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF097-Astronaut_Fall.jpg

I knew someone w as going to comment on that :) I forgot which was the proper term.
486 November 29th, 2008, 11:07 PM

Clips load magazines...
Youtube video for explanation. (http://ww w.youtube.com/v/AF21sihEgOU&hl=en&fs=1)
Another gun related video I found funny, (http://w ww.youtube.com/watch?v=A2sAFHBptJE&feature=related) it makes fun of a reporter's inability to notice that 2 loaded rounds
of ammo couldn't have possibly been fired at someone's house, and still be all assembled...
Cobalt.45 December 1st, 2008, 12:26 PM

http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=sHzdsFiBbFc&NR= 1
Bugger December 1st, 2008, 05:35 PM

Winter is coming guys........:D
PBF097-Astronaut_Fall.jpg What about that $100,000 tool-bag that one of the astronauts on the space shuttle Endeavor lost in space, as the result of its not being tethered and
floating out of arm's reach, and w hich is now in an orbit of its own? When and w here is it expected to re-enter the atmosphere?
Mr Science December 1st, 2008, 07:16 PM

That might mark the beginning of winter 09.
Sargist December 1st, 2008, 09:51 PM

Advanced Spy Gear Goes Public clip (http://podblanc.com/advanced-spy-gear-goes-public-0)
Here's the link mentioned in the video clip:

http://ww w.brickhousesecurity.com/
Hope I still got some karma-points with Santa ;)
hatal December 2nd, 2008, 04:29 AM

Party Hints and Communist Revolutions:
http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=zduKIF5Mo0k

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Kid arrested for gu n s , b o m b s ,
etc.
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B e t h e s d a T e e n I n d i c t e d O n B o m b Mak i n g C h a r g e s
11-11-2008 10:03 AM
(Bethesda, MD) -- A Bethesda t e e n a g e r a c c u s e d o f h a v i n g b o m b m a k i n g m aterial in his hom e h a s b e e n i n d i c t e d b y a g r a n d

jury. Eighteen-year-old Collin McKenzie-Gude now faces charges of posse s s i n g a n e x p l o s i v e d e v i c e a n d p r o d u c i n g f a l s e
iden tification documents. McKenzie-Gude was a rrested over the sum mer, after police say they found a num ber of assault-style
weapons in his home, as well as a m a p o f C a m p David that m arked the president's motorcade rou te.
-------
A blog that k ept tabs on reporting of this over the sum mer and fall:
http://thetrenchcoat.com/tag/colin-mckenzie-gude/
-------
I had no idea where else to put this in the Foru m , b u t t h e W a t e r C o o l e r s e e m e d s a f e e n o u g h . I t f a l l s i n t o t h e o l d P o l i c e
Gazette category or true crim e story that I loved to read about a s a kid. Unfortunately, it is real an d t h i s m e a n s h u m a n l i f e i s
disrupted. When I saw that the 18 year old's Dad is 62, I could only think of the father's grave disappointm ent and hurt.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > "Underground Science" article
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monkeyboy November 11th, 2008, 10:54 PM

Chemical & engineering news (http://pubs.acs.org/cen/science/86/8645sci1.html) has an article about "How Regulations Hamper Chemical Hobbyists"
Discussion at slashdot (http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/11/11/150231)
Both a good read.
sbovisjb1 November 12th, 2008, 07:37 AM

Chemical & engineering news (http://pubs.acs.org/cen/science/86/8645sci1.html) has an article about "How Regulations Hamper Chemical Hobbyists"
Discussion at slashdot (http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/11/11/150231)
Both a good read.
It was a good read. The operator from Sciencemadness allways gets cited in these sorts of articles. We don't. :p
For chemists who just want to run a lab as a hobby, figuring out which laws and regulations apply to them can be a daunting task. "It's pretty easy to find federal-level
regulations regarding storage, transport, and handling of hazardous materials," says Matthew Ernst, founder of the chemistry hobbyists' forum sciencemadness.org. "Most of
those regulations wouldn't apply to hobbyists or even small businesses because they have threshold quantity exemptions."
I wouldn't bother. I would rather take my chances where I live and not to bother.
Thompson suggests that would-be home chemists avoid the Drug Enforcement Administration's List I chemicals, which the agency tracks closely. "There's also a DEA List II, but
most of the chemicals on it are so common that there's no hope of tracking them," he says. "These are chemicals that you can buy literally by the gallon at hardware stores."
Like I said, even if you have a license and are caught with those (like most here have) you are screwed anyways.
"I find it demoralizing to sit in front of the television all day."
I think the Government would find it a lot easier if we all just did that. ;):p

It was a good read. The operator from Sciencemadness allways gets cited in these sorts of articles. We don't.
Nahh, we probably don't because we don't have a nice cuddly name like "Science Madness". Still, we get cited in literature, which is more important in my opinion. Perhaps we
will get some members who are people that actually read these journal articles, as opposed to the ever present spawn of illiterate trailer park parents.

Hell, the media will not even name this site regarding nbk's murder charges. I would have to change our name to A Certain Website to get a media credit :( Even the one
interview I gave about the site didn't even include the name for god's sake.
Not that I am complaining, although it may sound like it. I could do without the hit to the server from the sudden influx of thousands of new members, plus umpteen thousands
of looky loos.
It's my own fault for not developing more "legitimate" aspects of the site. I stick to what I know best and what the people want. Someone has to have the balls to have an
open dialog about explosives without degenerating into kewl ignorance or professional holier-than-thou elitism.
People seem to find us despite my best intentions. I dont have the kind of ego that requires public attention, quite the opposite actually because I am modest about the
success of the site. I am only doing what every website should be doing. The only critic I need to worry about is myself.
Killy November 25th, 2008, 12:29 PM

Its better for the site to not be publicized in media, as it could obviosly lead to its closing, and more police attention.
The less (people) they know the better, site should be elite, not prostituted in media.
sbovisjb1 November 25th, 2008, 06:55 PM

Hell, the media will not even name this site regarding nbk's murder charges. I would have to change our name to A Certain Website to get a media credit :( Even the one
interview I gave about the site didn't even include the name for god's sake.
Is there a link to this interview?
Lewis November 25th, 2008, 07:40 PM

Is there a link to this interview?
I am also curious. Hopefully it was a reputable online news source.

Oh no, wrong attitude... I don't want to be elite, and there is nothing going on here that should be illegal to begin with. There is the rub, the knee jerk reaction people get
when they see the site is all wrong. That is what I need to change. We should not be persecuted criminals just for exploring science, this is the real tragedy.
Yes, there is a link, no I will not tell you guys what it is since some of it is about me personally.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Glycerin and Salt Water Taffy (holiday treat)
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The holiday season is coming quickly, and if you're up to it you can make your own taffy as a gift. And in keeping with this being the Rogue Science Forum, this salt water
taffy "formula" (recipe) uses glycerin!
Actually, I did this as a kid and it was a lot of fun.
The recipe and "how to" instructions can be found on The Accidental Scientist, Science of Cooking website: http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/candy/recipe-taffy.html
The on-line article includes photographs about the cooking process! And, it includes explanations of why cornstarch and cornsyrup are used, and what glycerin is. The food
version of Rogue Science....
2 cups sugar
2 tablespoons cornstarch
1 cup light corn syrup
2 teaspoons glycerin (optional)
3/4 cup water
2 tablespoons butter
1 teaspoon salt
1/4 to 1 teaspoon flavoring (such as vanilla, lemon, maple, or mint)
3 drops food coloring (optional)
Everyone have a great holiday season, and be safe!
Lewis November 15th, 2008, 05:56 PM

The next step should be a guide for nitrating taffy. What better way to spread holiday cheer than a few taffy torpedoes? :p
festergrump November 15th, 2008, 07:37 PM

The next step should be a guide for nitrating taffy.
I was waiting for something similar as the tie-in/punchline, but it never came. Something along the lines of the Nazi chocolate candybar boobythrap bomb thing someone
posted pic of some time ago... :(
"No soup for you!" :p

The whole idea of nitrating it completely went by me when first posting the taffy formula. In truth, it was a holiday-fun-in-the-kitchen suggestion for guys and gals who like to
mix, measure, and stir.
Can you imagine trying to pull the taffy after nitrating it?
Shocker!
Jome skanish November 16th, 2008, 07:33 PM

I'm thinking Nitrotaffy would make a great heart-medicine.
Slogan:
"Grandpa's, give your grandchildren [generic candy]"

"Grandchildren, give your grandpa NitroTaffy if he's turning blue"

Turn your home into a palace of holiday cheer!
Taffy not quite doing it for you? Break out the mixed acids and start-a nitrating.
Need to spice up your love life? Grab your KY jelly and nitrate that too! Sure to give you more "bang in the sack".
Toffee and KNO3 doubles as both an awesome treat for the kids and a rocket fuel. What more could you want?
Come to RS.org for the festive season, we know how to hot up your yearly corporate holiday!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > French websites provide
interesting stories.
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"Accidental C hemists..."
http://www.liberation.fr/societe/0101266134-ex plosion-a-montpellier-un-accident-d-apprentis-chim istes
T h e s e s t a r t e d o u t m aking firecrackers, and ended up m aking TATP. The translation is from Google. My French isn't that good.
"According to R u s s i a n custom , to celeb rate its 20th anniversary, we m u s t m a k e n o i s e , e s p ecially with firecrackers. That is in
part caused the explosion that injured seven, including two serio u s , W e d n e s d a y , a r o u n d 4 pm , at the university of Montpellier
in Triolet, "said this m orning the regional daily Midi Libre.
T h e t e n a n t o f the roo m, Daniil, born on 12 Novem ber 1988 in St. Petersburg and French n ationality, had invited six young
friends for her birthday. Inscribed in th e first year of ele ctrical engineering, he had previously studied chemistry for one year. It
h a s p r e p a r e d a p r e p a r a t i o n e x p l o s i v e , a c c o r d i n g t o a r e c i p e h e h a d u n e a rthed on the Inte rnet. Mixing above its sink several
ingredients, including potassium nitrate, sulfuric acid an d iron filings with the help of two o f his friends, he m a n a g e d t o g e t
TATP (triactone triperoxide), " a liquid granular unstable and dangerous. "
D a n i i l h a d t o t a k e a g a m e t o m ake it explode like a big firecracker. But the song incandescent hit the rest of the preparation,
a priori involuntarily. W hile the liquid e x p l o d e d , c a u s i n g d a m a g e a n d m a ny injuries. Four youths were this morning still in
custody since their release from t h e h o s p i t a l W e d n e s d a y e v e n i n g .
"Two sm oked a cigarette on the balcony and two others slept at the foot of the bed at the tim e o f t h e e x p l o s i o n , " s a i d M i d i
Libre. A fifth, wanted by the police, pre s e n t e d h i m self to the police yesterday and was rem anded in custody. The last two, most
seriously injured are still in ho spital. One could be heard by the SR PJ in the day.
Several under investigation co uld follow, including "voluntary degradation explosive m o v a b l e i n c o n d i t i o n s t h a t e x p o s e p e o p l e

t o d a n g e r b o d y " a n d " p o s s e s s i o n o f g o o d s o r r e t u r n i n g s u b s t a n c e s i n t h e c o m position of explosive." However , The track
terrorist is eliminated.

W ow, KNO3, H2SO4, Fe -> AP? What an epic fail that is and it is apparently "An unstable granular liquid". Anyone th a t h a s
thought about synthing AP knows that it is relatively insensitive (compared to dry) when it is still precipitating out.
I can just see it now. The AP falls out of solutio n, and its new evil awaren e s s d e t e cts som e o n e s m o k i n g o n t h e b a l c o n y . U s i n g
its a wesom e power of "boolscheet" it m agically dries itself out, a n d s u m mons a cigarette from the balcony to set itself off.
It is a pity th a t p e o p l e a r e n o t m ore educated to see what a crock of shit this all is. If people were more ed ucated, this
wouldn't happen. Instead we need "censorship" to m ake sure we don't hurt ourselves with the sharp knives of knowledge.

Thats either a bad translation, or bad journalism. If that m an m a d e a c e t o n e p e r o x i d e f r o m the ingredients he was using we
m ay have to call the Nobel Prize comm ittee. More than likely he made a variety of substances, including AP, one of which
detonated.
Ahh, such a sweet language French is; a liquid granular unstable and dangerous A poetic way of saying acetone peroxide is
bad, very bad.

I can just see it now - their cleaning products have "liquid granular unstable and dangerous" on the back to m a k e p e o p l e
cautious of h ow dangerous it really is.
sbovisjb1 Novem ber 26th, 2008, 08:12 PM

T h a t s e i t h e r a b a d trans lation, or b a d j o u r n a l i s m . I f t h a t m an m a d e a c e t o n e p e r o x i d e f r o m the ingredients he was using we
m ay have to call the Nobel Prize comm ittee. More than likely he made a variety of substances, including AP, one of which
detonated.
A h h , s u c h a s w e e t l a n g u a g e F r e n c h i s ; a l i q u i d g r a n u l a r u n s t a b l e a n d d a n g e r o u s A poetic way of saying a c e t o n e p e r o x i d e i s

bad, very bad.
W hich is why I often (sorry folks) tell p eople to start off with ETN instead of Acetone Peroxide.

How about this article, http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/200 8 / 0 5 / 2 9 / 0 1 0 1 6 - 2 0 0 8 0 5 2 9 A R T F I G 0 0 6 6 7 - f r o n t - a n t i r a d a r - u n -
troisiem e - h o m m e-interroge.php
I don't know what it says, but I know it is about som e guy who b lew both of his hands off handling AP for a bomb to destroy
traffic cameras. Normally I would be critical, but I think his cause is noble. He didn't deserve what happened to him .
I d o n ' t s u p p o s e a n y o n e c a n p r o d u c e a m eaningful translation of the article, can they?
mrtnira Novem ber 27th, 2008, 11:42 AM

Fron t anti: A third ma n q u e s t i o n e d
lefig aro.fr avec AFP lefigaro.fr with AFP

29/05/2008 | Mise jour : 20:43 29/0 5 / 2 0 0 8 | U p d a t e d : 2 0 : 4 3 | C o m m entaires 3 | | Investigators want as part of the
investigation into the Fnar which rebounded Thursday after an explosion in Clichy-la-Garenne, in the Hauts-de-Seine.
After the explosion W ednesday at Clichy-la-Garenne, which put the police on the trail of a postm an hospitalized in critical
condition and led to the arrest of a colleague, a third postm an was remanded in custody sight W e d n e s d a y .
T h i s m an is a former colleague of Frederick Rabiller, the postm an seriously wounded while handling an exp losive device at
him . It is questioned since W e d n e s d a y e v e n i n g a t t h e h e a d q u a r t e r s o f t h e S D A T A ( t e r r o r i s m s u b c o m m ittee ) in Levallois-Perret
in connection with the investigation. His custody was extended Thursday.
Also at the SDATA, the neighb or of Frederick Rabiller also postm an, was taken into custody Wedne s d a y m o rning, just after the
explosion. The homes of two postal workers arrested were searched but to no avail, according to a source close to the case.
She said that the two men are not considered a priori as accom plices of Frederick Rabiller. W ednesday, the Paris prosecutor
Jean-Claude Marin also stated about the neighbor of the victim is a "close friend" but it "does not m e a n a c c o m plice."
Quelqu'un d'introverti Some one of "introverted"
Two postal workers have explained in custody have been surprised to see burn m arks on the face of Frederick R abiller a few
m onths ago. Accordin g to their statements, the y s u s p e c t e d h e w a s e n g a g i n g i n e x p e r i m ents, but without suspecting the nature
o f t h e m . T h e y d e s c r i b e t h e m a n a s s o m e o n e o f "introverted", which is entrusted to anyone.
T h e g r o u p c l a i m e d a d o z e n a t t a c k s a g a i n s t r a d ars road in the Paris region. "We have sufficient reason to b elieve th at we have
a t l e a s t o n e m e m ber of this FNAR , W e d n e s d a y f e l t a b o u t i t J e a n - C laude Marin. According to the prosecutor of Paris, "a lonely
b o y " c o u l d b e " t h e o n l y m e m ber of the nationa list anti front."

An nationwide terrorist organization with one mem ber. Sounds like the French are taking a page from t h e B u s h p r o p a g a n d a
h a n d b o o k . I d o u b t t h e authorities will even con sider for a SECO ND what policies they have put in place could have m otivated a
m an to com mit these acts. No p e , c a n ' t b e t h e f e d g o v , g o t t a b e t h o s e b o m b websites.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > "Terrorist or not" French government to go after explosive websites
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This is very recent, so there is no telling how it will run.
How the word revenue is used in French in the article, this is the problem of translation. However, the tone of the article is not about for-profit websites, it is about websites
that give instructions on the manufacture of explosives.
http://www.ddm.gouv.fr/afp/francais/topics/internet/081114194443.alm3erlg.php
---------------------------------------------------------------
Alliot-Marie wants a "standby force" against internet revenue bombs
AFP | 14-11-08 AFP | 14-11-08
The Interior Minister Michele Alliot-Marie sent Friday to all police and gendarmerie training to organize an "active standby" to close internet sites hosted in France that would
give revenue manufacture of explosives.
In this direction, which AFP has learned Friday evening, the minister request to deploy "great firmness" in this area, whether terrorist or not, when warning of revenue
manufacture of explosives or devices in behavior.
"Once a site clearly illegal about its contents will be spotted by police or gendarmerie, it will be reported to the host, in return for the closing or delete content target", it was
explained the Ministry of Interior.
If the host does not, the judicial authorities "will be seized", it provided the same source.
Thus, Thursday, the Interior Ministry has reported "Daily motion" a video showing a young explain how to make an explosive mixture was visible. The host in question "was
immediately removed," said Place Beauvau.
In the case of a site hosted outside of France, Europol and Interpol will be notified ", it added.
It is the Central Office for the fight against crime linked to information technology and communication (OCLCLTIC, the central management of the judicial police) which is
responsible for all alarms.

Now, lets bet how many times roguesci has been reported :p
Seriously what is this censorship craze around europe? I don't like it at all.
And Daily Motion, they do have a fuckton of french users and explosives videos, especially in french. So this is no surprise.

How the word revenue is used in French in the article, this is the problem of translation.
Sometimes google translation sucks. The word used in the original French text is "recettes", and in this context it means recepies or formulas and has nothing to do with
revenues.
Rbick November 16th, 2008, 01:19 PM

I'm just confused. My one question is: What does the French government think it is when it can tell people what they can and cannot study or know? The only reason the US
hasn't begun doing these things is because the constitution at least delays blatant attempts on our freedoms. The European countries are not so lucky I'm afraid.

Well, I can say, after having lived in France for 5 years, that the French government tries to do exactly that because they know what's best for you.
Check this link; http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Freedom-of-speech-in-the-French.html
Isn't it beautiful? But it has quite a few buts and exceptions when you look closer.
A short while ago, the French passed a law making it illegal to believe that the Turks didn't committ genocide against the Armenians. Personally, I don't doubt for a second that
the Turks committed genocide against the Armenians, but what the f*ck. I don't want a judge telling me what's historical facts and what's not.

iHME - If it make you feel any better, it isn't just Europe. Australia is now doing it with the "Clean Feed" idea. It's bullshit, and gives me the shits. Can't wait to see what
happens if it gets through though.
Anonymous unite!

Just get a shell in europe/us and use vpn. And poof! You have your own clean line trough Clean Feed.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > History ke eps repeating itself --
Fren ch railway sabotuers arrested (Interesting)
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(Interesting)

If you are interested in real world developm ents, and how historical patterns keep re-occurring, the story of the French railwa y
sabotuers arrested th is week (11-13 Novem ber) is a classic story of political intrigue, direct action, and police investigation and
persistent su rviellence. This is a True Crim e story of another era come to life, something that might have com e f r o m t h e
1930s or the 1950s -- but it is today.
There are lots of articles on this, in French.... English language news is focused on our recent Presidential e lection and post-
election cabinet selections. If you take the tim e t o l o o k t h e m in up Goog le, and translate the pages, the stories can be glue d
together and read like a real life espio nage thriller. The early press releases to the m ost recent give the inform a t i o n o n t h e
case as it developed.
http://tem psreel.nouvelobs.com/actua l i t e s / s o c i e t e / 2 0 0 8 1 1 1 5 . O B S 1 0 3 2 / s a b o t a g e _a_la_sn cf__neuf_jeunes_presente es_devant_

le_ju.htm l
---------------------------------------------------
JUSTICE
Sabotage at SNCF, the alleged leader indicted
NOU VELO BS.CO M | 15.11.2008 | 20:01 NOUVELOBS.COM | 15.11.2008 | 20:01
The 34-year-old man is suspected of having led a "cell invisible", a structure with a terrorist. The prosecutors opened a crim inal
investigation, including for "criminal association in relation with a terrorist enterprise".
A man of 34 years, presented as the alleged leader of the cell invisible "and suspected damage against TGV lines, was placed
under investigation Saturday Novembe r 15, including leading a terrorist purpose, has learned Sources close to the case.
Nine p e o p l e s u s p e c t e d o f b e i n g m e m b ers of an "invisible cell project was armed struggle" has to be presen ted to a magistrate
terrorism for possible under investigation for dam ages against TGV lines. They were brought in the m orning before the
prosecution which opened in m id-day a crim inal investig ation, including for "criminal association in relation with a terrorist
enterprise", according to a jud icial source.
"Ind ices serious"
T h e s e y o u n g people, mostly from affluent backgrounds, were under surveillance as part of an inve stigation opened in April.
Acco rding to the Paris prosecutor Jean-Claude Marin, the group participated in violent dem onstrations and was in conjunction
with sim ilar groups, including Germany, Greece, Italy an d the Un ited States. W elcom ing Tuesday for their arrest during an
operation which m obilized 150 police, the Interior Minister, Michele Alliot-Marie ha d claimed they belonged "to the ultra-left,
a n a r c h o - a u t o n o m o u s m ovem ent".
"Radicalisation violente" "Violent radicalization"
During the raids, particularly in farm Tarnac (Corrze) where several of them lived, investigators have put their hands on the
rail network cards, pliers and to forge long pole s a n d d o c u m entation anarchist and how to take the catenary. Five m e m b e r s o f
the group, which had itself called "invisible cell", were also seen in the night from 7 to Novem b e r 8 i n S e i n e - e t - M a r n e a n d O i s e
near places where the dam age was com mitted. Investig ators have however not found a copy of tool used for sabotage - a
Ironwork ouvrag shaped hook and pegged to the catenary cable - no trace of DNA or fingerprint a t the sce n e o f s a b o t a g e ,
"said prosecutor Friday to the press.
J e a n - C l a u d e M a r i n a l s o e m p h a s i z e d F r i d a y t h a t t h e y h a d "refused to speak during their custody. "It is not proof but it shows
p e o p l e a l r e a d y e n t r e n c h e d i n a c o u r s e o f m arginalizatio n and violent radicalization," he said.
"Structure vocation terroriste" "Structure-oriented terrorist"
O n t h e s e b a s e s , p r o s e c u t o r s r e q u e s t e d t h e i n d i c t m ent and detention a "hard core" of five people for "crim i n a l a s s o c i a t i o n " a n d
"deterioration in meeting", all in connection with a terrorist enterprise. Am o n g t h e m is the alleged leader, a g e d 3 4 y e a r s ,
including the prosecutor considered that he has "led a terrorist p urpose", a crim e p u n i s h a b l e b y 2 0 years' im prisonm ent.
A against four other people brought (two men and two women), the prosecutor has not shown sufficient evidence to incriminate
i n d a m age. He however reque sted them under investigation for "criminal association in relation with a terrorist enterprise",
b a s e d o n t h e i r a l l e g e d m embership of this "invisible cell".

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W ho out bid me?
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Wallybanger Novem ber 19th, 2008, 02:42 AM

There was a person o n ebay selling a bunch of stuff from a lab that closed down and I bid on a bunch of th eir auctions. I lost 3
but won 4.
I got:
11 boiling flasks for $3.25
7 Distillation flasks for $3.25
20 beakers for $.99
and a vintage Nitric acid bottle with glass stopper for $.99
It's all a m ix of Pyrex and Kim ax with a few Pyrex Class 3 beakers.
I lost 9 C lass A Pyrex Volumetric Flasks. guy got it for $ 10 (my m a x b i d w a s 1 0 a n d I s h o u l d a g o n e a t l e a s t 2 0 ) . A l s o l o s t a n

auction for a bunch of m isc glassware and one for a bunch of distillation pieces.
there was an auction for 4 Liebig Condensers that went for $30. Didn't bid on it.
Every auction has a $5 S&H fee and then shipping so I dunno what it's gonna cost to my door yet. Either way, I think I got
som e good deals.
I've noticed that there are a lot of Liebig Condensers on ebay for anywhere from a b o u t $ 2 5 - $ 1 0 0 .
W h a t k i n d s o f g o o d d e a l s h a v e y o u g u y s g o t o n l a b e q u i p m ent in the pa st?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > why do you not include bod y
armour to this forum ?
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I2aGe Novem ber 24th, 2008, 01:29 PM

I notice there is no section in relation to protective cloth ing / body arm our.
Surely this is a must as it is related to weaponary and e xplosives for their resitant factors, comparable stats on how they fair
against vario us weapons etc.
There are plenty of m ultiple suppliers of weapo n s a n d b o d y a r m o u r o u t t h e r e , s o m a y b e y o u c o u l d consider adding this to the
website forum.
Body Arm our Supplier sites:
http://www.safeguardclothing.co.uk
http://kelticclothing.co.uk
Anyone know any more please tag them on
Bugger Novem ber 24th, 2008, 04:42 PM

You obviously did not look very hard for threads on protective clothing and body armour! Here are two that I found in seconds:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=5933 - Ti arm or
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=5654 - Blast proof fabric

Hm m , t h r e a d s y e s , b u t h e a s k e d a b o u t a d e d i c a t e d s e c t i o n . I ' v e n e v e r c o n s i d e r e d i t b e f o r e . I h a v e c o n s i d e r e d s o m ething
alon g the lines of DIY PPE and safety equipment. I know that *sounds* bad on the face of it, DIY safety equipment, but
s o m ething is better than nothing in m a n y c a s e s .
Body arm or is something that is restricted by the fedgov, which m akes it a perfectly valid discussion area for The Fo rum . T h e
next criteria would be to see if there are any other websites devoted in whole or it part to body arm or.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Best friend's sister got raped
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OhNoYouDidnt Novem ber 26th, 2008, 05:09 PM

My best frien d's sister (13) wa s r a p e d a b o u t 8 m onths ago and the guy (25) got fre in court this week on technicalities. She
w a s u n c o n s c i o u s w h e n i t h a p p e n e d b e c a u s e h e d r u g g e d her, so she couldn't testify to exa ctly what happened. He also used
protection. The bottom line is we know for a fact that he did it.
My questions is: what would you do if this happ ened to your sister?
I don't really know what to tell the guy because I d o n ' t h a v e a s i s t e r . I f s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t h a p p e n e d t o m y m other on the
other hand I still really don't know wha t I would do.
W hy don't we rephrase the question: What wou ld you consider doing if that happened to your sister?
The guy has a lot going for him and so he doesn't want to break any laws or get himself into trouble. It's k ind of interesting
t h o u g h s o m e of the stuff he has researched for his own persona l a m u s e m ent. Dim ethylmerc, purified nicotin, run som e o n e
over, etc etc. It's probably good that he is getting that out of his system by reading and laughing at what h e could potentially
do the guy. None of the options are realistic though because anything he does really.. will probably only wind him up getting
into trouble. He does know wh ere the guy works though and potentially h as access to his car.
W h e n t h e l e g a l s y s t e m falls short, what do you do? Pray? Put a curse on someone? People pray all the time for things but it
d o e s n ' t m e a n a n y t h i n g i s m ore or less likely to h a p p e n .
Tough situation. I really want to help the guy but I'm at a loss for words or ideas at this point.
If you are going to post on this thread please keep it away from fantasies that are unrealistic (like chopping the guy with an
axe or shooting). That stuff in the m ovies is not practical. People get arrested when they do stuff like that nowadays. This isn't
T e x a s i n t h e 6 0 s o r e arly 70s, and this isn't the wild wild west.
Its messed up when people do things without any consideration for other people. Its amazing how one m otherfvkce r can turn
so m any people's lives upside down and in the end nothing gets done about it.
So realistically, what would you do?

I would do m y best to ruin his reputation. This could be done by telling h is close friends and fam i l y w h a t h a p p e n e d , s p e a k i n g
t o t h e p r e s s , s p e a k i n g t o h i s e m ployer, etc..
Bottom feeder fuckers like him deserve absolute shit. However, you don't want to do anything illeg al in the process of justice.
Sim ply letting everyone know the trust is a good, legal, effective way of exacting justice.

I would do m y best to ruin his reputation. Simp ly letting everyon e know the truth is a good, legal, effective way of exacting
justice.
Y e s t h a t s a g o o d s t a r t a n d s o m e of those avenues have already been explored. Unfortunately that will only go so far to relieve
the hurt that guy caused my friend's family. Its a tough tough situation.
I f p e o p l e h a v e c o m m ents or even links to othe r threads that they would like to share but feel are too inappropriate to post
publicly, feel free to PM me.
Thanks.
sbovisjb1 Novem ber 26th, 2008, 05:45 PM

Agreed. Ruin his reputation. Launch a sm ear campaign. Nothing illegal or imm oral with letting people know what hes been up
to.
slarter Novem ber 26th, 2008, 06:48 PM

Go to a printing shop and have them print up flyers and bum per stickers with his picture and the word "Rapist" and flood his
neig hborhood with them . Post them on every bulletin board you can find.
crazywhiteguy Novem ber 26th, 2008, 07:42 PM

I agree that the best option is to ruin his reputation. Depending on his social standing, this m a y b e t h e m ost devastating thing
you can do.
Its not very hard to poison people. I've been in a sim ilar situation and had to hold m yself back from murder for m onths. I
learned to come to peace with what happened. 1g of pu rified nicotine in coffee or sim ilar would be effective, as would be a 12g
bird shot round to the sternum . W ith the appropriate measures and trust with your friend, you m ay well get justice.
As m uch as I'd like the see th e a heap of rotting corpses piling up in the landfill of rapists, I don't want to see another
forum ite's name on the news for m urder. Think through t h e p o t e n t i a l c o n s e q u e n c e s o f y o u r a c t i o n s . A n d b y a l l m e a n s d o
whatever is in your power to ruin this guy.

Lets get this straight, she got raped once by him , a n d r a p e d a s e c o n d t i m e b y t h e s y s t e m . Justice failed, there is no legal
recourse available now. He should be punished, but not killed. T he dead feel no pain, no terror, no misery.
Very few m en will report being sexually assaulted. If it never gets reported it, it isn't a crim e, now is it?

S o m ething that is known to happen here. A person is held down while a pipe is lubed up and put in their ass. Nothing wide, or
sphincter tea ring, but then a piece of razor wire is put down the pipe. The pipe is rem oved , leaving the razor wire behind. Ha ve
fun getting that out.:D
If he doesn't want to do som ething too illegal, then there is always m alodorants in the guys car. He wont be able to drive it, or
sell it because it stinks too ba d.
Even if it was just som e n-butyric acid through a slightly cracked window, pulling the window seal ba ck and d ripping it into the
door, etc.
Otherwise there are p eople yo u can contact to have thin gs done for you, if he is willing to spend a few hundred or so.
R e m ember, if you aren't caught, it isn't illegal. Also, remem ber the R T P B 3 3 :
" T h e P e r f e c t C r i m e h a s 4 e l e m ents: Profit, not revenge, is the m otive. A well thought out plan. 2 p e o p l e a t m o s t . N o o n e e l s e
knows (m outh kept shut).
festergrump Novem ber 27th, 2008, 07:47 PM

Letters to the preside nt elect with the rapist bastard's nam e a n d a d d r e s s i n t h e r e t u r n a r e a o f t h e e n v e l o p e m ay prove
interesting. Use your im agination for what the letter may actually say. Just about guaranteed to start "gove rnm ent parties" at
his house or work locale if you word it right (and no fingerprints). Hint hint.
[EDIT: and if nobody hears from m e in a few days, m y idea was SO good it got m e in trouble by even posting it. C rossing
fingers :p]
LurkerLurker Novem ber 28th, 2008, 04:34 PM

Turnabout is fair play.
Date rape drug him .

Set him up with gay whores.
Take pics.
Distribute them .
Narc him o u t f o r p o s s e s s i o n o f t h e b a d m e d s .
(neverm ind)
-Mr Sci

Turnabout is fair play.
I a m still here and not only m onitoring but greatly appreciating your crea tive feedback.
Don't be afraid to PM me if yo u are uncertain about posting here.
Thanks
3287 Novem ber 28th, 2008, 07:15 PM

This is a sad fact, but nothing can be done to relieve your friend 's fam ily's pain. The very worst things you could do to this
scumbag would still not undo what he did. The only way for them to find relief is with tim e and the process of recovery.
That being said, anything you do to the guy is justified. Just con sider the advice you've gotten thus far, because getting
yourself or your friend into trouble will only m ake things worse.

Actually LurkerLurker's post is exactly what should be done. Pictures yes, distribute no, blackmail for cash. Profit and revenge.
Distribute the pics after statute of limitations runs out. If he doe s not learn his lesson, do it all over again in a few years.
Justice served.
Otherwise to keep everything legal you would h ave to devote a considerable portion of your life to destroying his. Then you
(she) stop being a victim and start being a creepy stalker.
If I did the m ath correct, would the girl have been 12 at the tim e of the crime, or close to it? I think you can get the death
penalty in a few state s for that (under 12, or 12 and under, I forget which exactly).
S o m e people would find it very cathartic to destroy their attacker. Sometim es this is the only way for wom en to get closure, to
confront and destroy. Som etimes revenge is worth destroying yo ur life over, just be very sure to take as m a n y p e o p l e d o w n
with you as possible.
shady mutha Novem ber 29th, 2008, 04:36 PM

I would recomm end a tried an d true m e t h o d o f p u n i s h m ent that will mutilate your target but keep him breathing. Very sim p l e
from start to finish. Buy some sulphuric acid an d throw it in his face.

The primary concern should be no physical contact with the rapist. This does not leave very many options but will continue
brainstorm ing. Thank s
Wallybanger Novem ber 30th, 2008, 09:08 AM

Become his Friend. That's right, befriend that p iece of shit. Does he know who you are?
Even if it takes a few years, become his BFF. Read some books on psych ology, get in his good books.
Late r on down the road you get som e b o o z e i n t o h i m a n d t e l l h i m about some horrible thing you did to a woman, how she
d e s e r v e d i t a n d h o w i t m a d e y o u f e e l g o o d . W hen he shares his little secret, have a tape recorder running. Also, I believe
rapists are usually repeat offe nders. If he did it once, he'll likely do it again and you could be around to ge t evidence.
Rapists and child m olesters are the lowest form of scum we have in our society. If it were up to m e, they would all b e shot.
Your buddy has a lot of self restraint. If it had been my sister, the cops never would have been called in the first place and he
would end up just another missing person.
Rbick Novem ber 30th, 2008, 08:21 PM

I'm with everyone else in saying that rapists are the lowest scum on the planet and deserve misery to the extent of which
words cannot describe. Especially for doing such a thing to a 13 year old. I have two sisters and I can't even im agine how I
would feel. There would be consequences no doubt.
As far as I am concerned, anything you can do without getting caught is free gam e. I believe in the death penalty a nd rapists
would be added to the list if I had it m y way. Not for the sake of revenge , but because they deserve it. Get in to his life and
learn what you can. Then exploit the things you have learned. If he loves his car, find a way to disable it th at will cost him a lot
of m oney. If he loves his dog, find a way to kill it. There are ma ny ways to make his life miserable. I wouldn't want him to d ie
h o w e v e r , s i n c e t h e d e a d f e e l n o p a i n a s m e g a p o i n t e d o u t . R e a l l y m a k e h i m feel it.
OhNoYouDidnt D e c e m ber 1st, 2008, 01:37 AM

Good news everyone. There is now a solution to the problem at hand. My buddy's family met with a lawyer on Friday and the y
are going to sue the guy in civil court. Apparently the weight of the evidence can be less enough that in this situation the guy is
sure to be fo und guilty.
Thanks everyone for your advice and thoughts and I will definite ly post the outcom e in the months to com e.
mike-hunt D e c e m ber 1st, 2008, 04:15 AM

Even when the courts can convict they can not hand out sentences that fit the crim e.
when all legal options are inadequate only illeg al options remain. A fit torture for child rapists may be to se ver the spinal cord
leaving them unable to com m it suicide then m a k e t h e m spend the rest of their lives wishing they could , with the use of
suitable tortures .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Wartime Survival?
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s1109 November 29th, 2008, 01:20 PM

This community doesn't seem big on introductions, so I'm skipping one entirely. Hi, though. I hope I don't break any rules. Here goes.
Anyway, as it stands right now, it is somewhat likely that my city is going to be ground zero for a war with a neighboring country. While I am hoping for the best, my optimism
is wearing thin. If it comes to war, I'd like to be prepared, purely defensively, and to protect me and my friends. Sorta simplistic, but that's it. Some of us have years of work
as artists, writers, filmmakers, thespians, philantropists and the like that I want to preserve. This is my home, and I don't think I need to emphasize that I wouldn't like to
abandon it.
I just don't know where to start. I just figured that since you guys regularly go through such information, and this is a hub of sorts, you'd have a few pointers, or at least
nudge/shove me in the right direction. again, I don't want or (think that I) need to know anything that might be preemptively or overtly hostile in nature. I just need some
material to read, or something along those lines.
I suppose there isn't any text on a few of my concerns. Like maintaining a constant connection with the outside world, to be able to get news and all, e.g. the internet. What to
do for "money"? If such a thing exists in a warzone. "Money" that lends itself to the acquisition of electricity and the like. And stuff like keeping paintings, books and all safe.
And possibly, how to recover some of your assets if you are forced to leave them behind. A number of us help out, at schools for those who can't afford an education, charities
helping such people, etc. and considering that many of them won't be able to pack up and leave, I don't really know what to do if we try and support them through it all. ugh.
I really don't know what to ask.
I would and can list more questions, but there's no point making a long post if someone was going to address it anyway. I don't want to actually impose or imply any moral
obligations on anyone in the process either. I'll ask if I feel its appropriate, but really, anything would help get me my bearings. If I feel something is unaddressed, or I want
clarification, I'll ask. No worries, really.
Thanks in advance.

If this is a serious request, I'll be more than willing to help you out. I've seen first hand what war can do and it ain't pretty. But it would be nice to know a little more about the
enemy and what kind of attack you're expecting. Is it the Russians? But, personally, I need a little more assurance before I involve myself in your case. But here's a little
starter. The classic Special Forces Caching Manual, everything you'd ever wanted to learn about hiding things.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7965410/TC-3129-Special-Forces-Caching-Techniques
You could also look up brother Hirudinea's books on scribd.com - lots of relevant books there.

s1109 has PM'ed me and I can see his problems.
I don't think it's going to be as bad as you fear, but it's probably going to be bad - in my opinion, it already has.
The way I see it, other than leaving the country, your best bet is staying in the cities, the rural areas will not be very friendly places for outsiders.
You don't have any skills that are marketable in a disaster situation, other than being a handyman.
Since you're new to this, the first place you should look to is the motherload of disaster and emergency information - FEMA.
http://www.fema.gov
You'll probably spend the few days just downloading stuff.
Kresson Kearny's book is also worth reading:
http://www.oism.org/nwss/
This one is probably way too apocalyptic, but it does contain some good information:
http://www.cybertrn.demon.co.uk/atomic/
More information from the American Red Cross
http://www.redcross.org/services/prepare/0,1082,0_239_,00.html
Some good information here too:
http://incaseofemergencyblog.com/
You should use your connections in the medical community to stockpile necessary medical equipment. But you need to learn how to use it. Are there any advanced first aid or
paramedical courses you can attend?
This should have you going for the next couple of weeks. If there is something you don't find, then don't hesitate to ask.
Oh, and yes, the Mormon preparedness manual isn't bad either:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8218747/Emergency-Preparedness-Manual

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > The Day of the Flag
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Kaydon D e c e m ber 1st, 2008, 05:56 PM

O n D e c e m b e r 27th, a ll Patriots across the nation are asked to give at least one h our of th eir tim e, for their Nation, and walk
down a street carrying the US flag upside down. W e wan t to reach as m any of our fellow Am ericans to let them know that all is
not lost and that there are still folks out there that care for our Race & Nation.
There is no law against one or two individuals sim ply wa lking down the street with an Am erican flag upside down, there is no
penalty written in the code even should anyone object. The following is the U S code:
THE FLAG CO DE Title 36, U.S.C., Chapter 10 As am ended by P.L. 344, 94th Congress Approved July 7, 1976 176.
Respect for flag: No disrespect should be shown to the flag of th e U n i t e d S t a t e s o f A m e r i c a ; t h e f l a g s h o u l d n o t b e d i p p e d t o
any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a m ark of
honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extrem e d a n g e r
to life or property.

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angryphil November 8th, 2006, 10:23 AM

www.kno3.com has nearly everything thechemicalshop.com has, but is muuuuuch cheaper!

www.ebay.co.uk currently has some very good deals on KNO3.

www.pyroplanet.co.uk see above.

If anyone knows of any better UK sites please reply:)

mike16 November 8th, 2006, 10:52 AM

ShadowMyGeekSpace November 8th, 2006, 01:42 PM

PS: Use The Fucking Search Engine (UTFSE)

Gerbil November 8th, 2006, 01:52 PM

www.kno3.com has nearly everything thechemicalshop.com has, but is muuuuuch cheaper!

angryphil November 8th, 2006, 02:54 PM

Gerbil November 8th, 2006, 06:38 PM

mike16 November 8th, 2006, 07:13 PM

c.Tech November 8th, 2006, 09:08 PM

They are quite suspicious if you ask me.

CTMTNA November 9th, 2006, 11:11 AM

CTMTNA November 18th, 2006, 02:05 PM

Cop1: Try this, I got the order.

Idiot gets arrested.

I could be wrong, just pointing it out for safetys sake.

Cobalt.45 November 19th, 2006, 02:06 PM

megalomania November 25th, 2006, 09:36 PM

Jacks Complete November 27th, 2006, 07:43 PM

Element13 November 27th, 2006, 10:35 PM

nbk2000 November 28th, 2006, 05:37 AM

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Grapes Of Wraith Novem ber 8th, 2006, 11:19 PM

festergrump Novem ber 9th, 2006, 12:06 AM

H e ' s b e e n m y d o g s i n c e s o o n a f t e r ( a b o u t 4 o r 5 m o n t h s , n o w ) a n d I h a v e b e e n a b l e t o g ain his trust with him around both

Any anim a l n e e d s t o b e c o m e accustom e d t o h a v i n g l o u d n o i s e s g o i n g o f f r a n d o m ly (to them ) around them . If she's cowering

W hat kind of dog is she?

Grapes Of Wraith Novem ber 9th, 2006, 12:29 AM

I h a d s o m e b o t t l e r o c k e t s o n e y e a r a n d I was setting them off....

pearlcrash911 Novem ber 9th, 2006, 03:25 AM

c.Tech Novem ber 9th, 2006, 03:48 AM

Bert Novem ber 9th, 2006, 10:50 AM

Grapes Of Wraith Novem ber 9th, 2006, 11:41 AM

I m ight have s o m e other pictures.

Cobalt.45 Novem ber 9th, 2006, 10:52 PM

W a n t e d t o g e t a s c l o s e a s s h e c o u l d t o t h e m in an effort to "take them out".

No fear, just excitem ent.

Red Beret Novem ber 10th, 2006, 03:06 AM

sparkchaser Novem ber 10th, 2006, 04:17 AM

Sausagemit Novem ber 11th, 2006, 04:47 PM

Colt T Novem ber 20th, 2006, 12:31 AM

Core Novem ber 23rd, 2006, 12:15 PM

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