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PyroTech April 10th, 2003, 05:42 PM

Hello,
If someone saw the movie: "Boondock saints", then you probably know the scene, were a guy get shot in the shoulder. Some
blood splashes on the balcony, and to prevent that the cops would get his blood/DNA, he has a little spraycan, full with some
hydrochloric acid, and he sprays the HCl on the blood. Later in the movie, a FBI agent tells another FBI agent that the blood is
useless, because the blood was "destroyed".
I thought this was pretty cool, does anybody know if this really works? Maybe with another acid, like H2SO4.
I made a new tread because I couldn't find anything about this subject, and I thought improvised weapons would be the best
section.
Ghostcustom 24 April 10th, 2003, 06:21 PM

It may work if the concentration of the hydrochloric acid is high enough. I wonder if hydrogen peroxide works? (I would bet that
would destroy the blood since it kills bacteria, but I am not sure)
I have seen that State Troopers carry 2 two-liter bottles of Coke in their trunks to pour over bloodstains on the highways. They
explained it to me saying that in about 15 minutes it eats away at all of the blood. I believed them because I have seen the
classic experiment where they dissolve a T-bone steak in Coke.
Anyone know anything about this?
Keyser Soze April 10th, 2003, 07:09 PM

The Boondock Saints is one of my favorite movies, i believe they are working on a sequel. I also just popped it in and the line
Wilem Dafoe says is, "They used ammonia, none of this is any good, FUCK!"
So i think it was ammonia and not HCl. Even if you were to try it, yo might need it in higher concentrations than you get in the
grocery store though.

Yes, higher concentrations would probably be the key. Almost any type of acid (that would be able to destroy the DNA) should
probably work.
I can have a definite yes or no answer tomorrow.

Aha, was it ammonia? I'll watch it again this weekend.
Using coke for eliminating the traces of blood? That is a weird idea!
I think you have a big chance that H2SO4 works too. I guess I could do some simple tests, with HCl (30%) H2O2 (30%) and
H2SO4 (>95%), just add a little piece of meat to it. But I wouldn't have a clue, if the DNA is destroyed then.
But if an acid destroys the DNA, wouldn't stomach acid be a little problem? :confused: I guess a nice NaOH solution would do
pretty good, reminding that it destroys hair and all filthy stuff in the drain.
But if it was so easy, why wouldn't every dumb criminal use it? Well I guess it's the same thing as always wearing leather
gloves.
I also love that movie Keyser, it's such a great script.
Einsteinium April 10th, 2003, 07:48 PM

There is nothing weird about using coke since it contains phosphoric acid in good amount (Coke's ph ~1,5-2,5). Strong acids
catalyzes hydrolysis of DNA, cleaving it into fragments (this includes HCl, H2SO4, H3PO4, HNO3, HBr...). Strong bases also
catalyze hydrolysis of DNA but I've never heard of any cases where it was used. Strong oxidants such as KMnO4 and
hypochlorite (bleach.. pool chlorine) solutions does destroys DNA very conviently, and this is quite frequently used (bleach) by
criminals to destroy evidence.
BTW, forensic chemist are still able to determine if there were blood and/or blood fragments on a scene even if you did your
best to destroy it. They just won't be able to analyze it and relate it to somebody.
photonic April 10th, 2003, 08:26 PM

I think you're mistaken. Ammonia is what they said was in the can. Good movie, btw. I'm fairly certain HCL would definately
complicate things, but forensics techniques seem to be pretty advanced these days(still I think like > 3/4 of murders go
unsolved). Are there any forensics book in the "Library"?
Edit: I typed the message when their were no replies and then never sent it. Now there's a lot of replies that already said what
I had to say. Oops.
[ April 10, 2003, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: photonic ]
nbk2000 April 11th, 2003, 02:12 AM
Movies are FICTION, not reality, so don't believe jack shit they say about "ammonia destroyed the blood" or any other such
crap.
The safest bet is to use things intended to destroy organic matter...those things being drain cleaners. They're purpose is to
dissolve and destroy hair, grease, and will also do that to skin and bone if you get it on you.
Highly concentrated acids, lye, oxidizers like hypochlorites and cyanurates, will all destroy organics. Pirahna fluid will do so with
such violence as to cause ignition! And it's easy enough to carry around as a binary, mixed only at the instant of use.
In fact, the Drain-O foamer that has a two-compartment bottle is a Pirahna fluid, ready to use. :) One part is hypochlorite, the
other hydrogen peroxide.
DaRkDwArF April 11th, 2003, 02:44 AM

Wouldn't be surprised about teh coke, I once tested the theory of using coke to lift oil stains on concrete driveways, it
worked...
NBK's right on the mark, Drain-O packs sound like the go. Compressing acids into a can in a home workshop is not really a
good idea...
PyroTech April 11th, 2003, 04:04 AM

You wouldn't need to compress them, just buy a little hairsprays bottle (the ones with the normal liquid inside, and a tube in
the liquid, and a pump on top). They would do fine, won't spray 2 meters, but who needs that anyway.
And NBK, there is often a sence of reality used in movies, otherwise people would always start pissing that it's so fake, and it
looked pretty real to me.
darkdontay April 11th, 2003, 06:51 AM

The point of Movies is to entertain not enlighten... It is hard to watch some movies cause they just gett all wierd in the
science.
Chain Reaction,
The Core
The Manhattan Project.. and so on, yes many movies try and represent like they are real and it is supposed to be something
realistic, but as allways it is desinged to look like that to entertain you.
Though if you look to moives as a guide for the stuff you do then may your deity help you.
Bitter April 11th, 2003, 10:09 AM

That's right, Einsteinium. Coke contains about 2% phosphoric acid.

Well darkdontay, as seen in the reactions of some users, there is something in that scene that's real, or close to real. And
offcourse there are movies, were sience is all fantasy
And does anybody know, if you clean up some blood on a wall, with normal soap and water, and after that you'll spray it with
bleach, does the blood still show up when the cops use luminol?(Spelling?)
In the program The FBI-Files, on discovery channel the cops use luminol alot, does anybody know what substance it is? For the
ones who never check that program, and don't know Luminol, it's a spray that you spray on cleaned up blood, and it reacts
with the blood, and when you turn the light off, it gives a kind of green/yellow light of. So you can see blood, even when
somebody tried to clean up. I'm not sure everything is true in this post, since it was only a program.

Even if my position about science in movies is the same as NBK's, I must say that discovery's programs are often a reliable
source of infos, but not always.
I have heard of a case where, after some murderer violently exploded the head and legs of his victim with a mace, he then
cleaned up his basement thouroughly with common bleach. Two years later a cop went there and tried up luminol, he found
very slight luminescence thus sent some dirt to the lab. They couldn't do anything with it, except states that there were
destroyed blood there. The cops then proceeded to remove a wooden stairway near the blood stains and found a minime, but
intact, blood film stuck between two pieces of the stairway (the murderer had dragged his victim downstairs). Even after two
years stuck there, their lab sequenced the DNA, which was indeed the victim's DNA, and caught the murderer.
One must be very careful when he destroys blood, spraying ammonia from a can (like the movie) then running away will only
get you laughs... and time in jail.
[ April 11, 2003, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Einsteinium ]
Gargoylebrother April 11th, 2003, 06:29 PM

While it is a very nice idea to be able to distroy DNA that easily i dont think ammonium would do it. I would sugest strong acid
like S204 or HNO3 would probably work along with HCL. What i would want is if i had time to clean the area then test it with
Luminol(sp) and make sure to check everywhere for small specks of blood or body fluids. If i remember right once in a CSI
show i believe they said Luminol(sp) was used in some toilet bowl cleaners but im not sure. I think it would be great if one
could find a good sorce of Luminol(sp) or a way to synthisize(sp) it. Also is there any other chemicals out there that work just
like luminol(sp).

Sorry, there is already a topic about the substance Luminol. Chemistry related-->Luminous solution...
Sorry for asking something that's allready in another topic.

I want to emphasis what Einsteinium said.
Destroying the blood is pointless, unless you destroy ALL of the blood. As he said even the smallest trace of undamaged
blood is all that is needed.
For more unusual uses for Coke go <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~Barefoot_Lass/cola.html" target="_blank">Here</

a>
Anthony April 12th, 2003, 02:19 PM

If I was wanting to destroy blood, I would get one of those big pump pressurised garden sprayers. Fill it with the liquid agent
of choice and spray *everywhere*, several times. Obviously a respirator would be handy :)

You can destory blood with many things.. is that your only goal.. Bleach, Ammonia, Any strong Acid should break it down.
Are you trying to get rid of evidence that it was their.. Or just destroy the blood so as to make it useless fomr testings?

Good question. What is the goal of this scenario Pyro Tech?

Are you trying to get rid of evidence that it was their.. Or just destroy the blood so as to make it useless fomr testings?
The two are almost the same... Even if you thouroughly clean a bloody place, there will still be evidence there, as forensic
chemist can detect nucleotides fragments in the picograms amount. If one wants to make blood useless for testing, then he
must destroy all the blood (thus most of the evidence) as it requires only a couple of micrograms to sequence it.
darkdontay April 14th, 2003, 08:26 PM

Might points was which one of these is he going from
1.) clrasytal clean sence.. nothign to find and also very little if any trace evidence left to shot that the sence had been
cleaned...
2.) big huge pool of blood left in the middle of the carpet total rendered useless.
though there is alot of middle groun in between their and I understand that. I was taking the extremes to show my point of
view.

2.) big huge pool of blood left in the middle of the carpet total rendered useless.
That's what I was meant too, as it's not possible to exist. If there is a huge pool of blood, that's mean you failed in destroying
most of it and there will certainly be a couple micrograms of intact DNA there. Destroyed blood is colorless and it dissolves in
the destroying agent. Dried, it should looks like white crystals if completly destroyed, that dosen't look like blood at all. If
there's still some red coloration in the "destroyed" blood, that means you definitivly failed in destroying it. I know you meant
the extreme, but a minime reddish spot is way enough to sequence. Starting from there, to destroy evidence or to make
blood useless for testing is almost the same.

Well, senario goes like this:
I have got to kill someone, I have no choice. It's a man, about 30 years old.
So I sneak into his house, I see him in the bathroom. 'll go into the room, it's a weird bathroom, the floor is made of wood.
I shoot the guy, take whatever I need, and get out. I want to clear all the details; blood staines, little blood traces, maybe
between the wood.
I'll come back the next day, and I strart cleaning, first the big things like blood on the wall, later I'll do the small things. But
are the cops able to see the blood on the wall, with luminol? I cleaned it with soap and water, after that with some HCl, or
bleach.
Do the cops have other ways of finding out? Note: I'll wear gloves, and will leave no trace of myself.
NOTE: THIS IS ALL JUST A THOUGHT!

They'll probably find it if they try luminol, this stuff reacts with DNA and fragments of DNA, plus it is very sensitive. As I said, it
worked (very slight glow) even two years after a scene has been cleaned up with bleach. It would be nice to have some luminol
to check up yourself after cleaning a scene or another destroying agent than bleach or aqueous Acid/Base that products
indetectable DNA fragments to luminol tests.

After checking with the luminol, you could use some very corrosive acids such as strong mineral acids or alkyl hydroxides. That
should burn the walls/floor off and any trace of blood. :D
It would leave a rather permanent mark, but so would any acid poured on a wood floor.

Would "Killz" work to just paint over the walls.... I use it to cover Smoke damage, Smoke smell, Mildew, Mold..etc.. I wonder if
it would be good enough to trap the eveidcne that their had been blood at al their? Just a Thought.
I will have to get a link to the information on that paint.

Not a bad idea if they had the time.
I would suggest using "Egg-shell" type paint. The reason for this being that this type of paint is extremely thick (hence the
name:p) and widely available.
PyroTech April 19th, 2003, 11:39 AM

Well, painting would be ok.
But if the cops suspect that a crime has taken place, and there is one wall in a little different colour, I guess they would scrape
some paint of the wall. And then they probably will be able to test the blood.
This is just a guess, who knows what paint will do to the blood. :-)
vulture April 21st, 2003, 02:49 PM

Use loads of nitric acid. Nitric acid is used in biology labs to destroy amino acids and any other type of organic matter left in
filters, glassware, etc.
A possibly cheaper solution would be concentrated sulfuric acid with dissolved potassiumdichromate, as this has virtually the
same effect and is strongly oxidizing.
Tcell April 22nd, 2003, 08:12 PM

Admittedly this is a little late, but I wasn't particularly following this thread... The reason that stomach acid doesn't break down
your DNA is because your stomach is protected by mucus membranes... Hence the reason why hard drinking (alcohol breaks
down the mucus) can cause ulcers.
mrcfitzgerald April 24th, 2003, 06:24 AM

Since all one must do to "destroy" a sample of blood is to mutilate the DNA code
to the point where it would be either unsuitable for evidence, or match another person
besides the culprit; why not use intense UltaViolet radiation? Certain frequencies of UV
light (I believe higher rather than lower) cause intense mutation in the ATCG base pairs,
and since they cannot convict you unless the DNA matches the story (which in this case,
it dosent) your inoccent. Albeit the light wont be to good in penetrating carpet or fabrics,
only bleach will work there; however, given that you might need to rid a wall or ceiling of evidence,
instead of painting it, just go over thoroughly with the light. Of course if you wanted to avoid
all the trouble of decontaminating the area, you might as well just burn down the building.

Yes burning the building down is a most effective method, after you exhausted all other methods of destroying the blood DNA.
Chade October 16th, 2003, 11:30 PM

I had the idea ages ago, searched and found this thread, and was a litle suprised to see no one mention it. If, for example,
I'd killed someone in my house, and wanted to remove the blood stains, I'd clean them with conventional cleaning products as
thoroughly as possible.
Then I'd paint everywhere that I'd cleaned with Pigs blood. Then I'd clean that up.
See that'll make any DNA harder to find amongst the pig DNA. Not impossible, mind you, but you've also cleaned it twice
rather than once, and the pig blood should be greatly in excess of the human blood.
It is very possible to tell different species by detecting the number of chromosomes. I'm not sure how many pigs have, but I
think it's not the same as humans.
DNA testing relies on PCR.

What they do is duplicate (so to speak) the replication process that goes on for DNA in cells. The DNA is put in a solution, split
down the middle, then each half combines with bases (Like ACTG, although, if I remember right I think another one may be
involved during duplication) So you now have two strands of DNA. Repeat, and get enough DNA to test.
Now, it'd be nice if this meant you could just chuck in any old DNA to screw up their testing with noise, but much of the work in
PCR (and it's difficult enough to manage anyway) is to chop off a specific chunk. For example, a point in the human DNA
structure would be isolated, for example they could isolate a region on a Y chromosome if they knew they were looking to ID a
mans DNA, then just duplicate that section.
So anyway, their PCR process will ignore the pigs blood, but it should screw up quite a few other tests they use, including
general tests for blood. If I remember correctly, Pigs internal organs are remarkably similar to Humans, so I'd guess their
blood might be similar too. I suppose ape blood would be better, but harder to acquire than just trotting down the butcher
shop. You could even bleed yourself and keep your blood frozen for such an eventuality. Although I don't think I'd want to try
that, that really would screw up their tests.
'Yes, we have conclusive proof that he killed... ...himself?'
McGyver October 26th, 2003, 10:45 PM

Anyone watch Mythbusters on Discovery channel? Well they were testing the myth of coke disolving a steak, they left the steak
in the coke for a day and it didn't do anything to it exept tint it a brown color. So if you left the the stake longer the coke
wouldn't dissolve it that much, it would just decay like all meats. They also tried to wash of animal blood of the road with coke,
it worked very well.
xyz October 27th, 2003, 05:16 AM

When you are using coke to dissolve things, it has to be fresh out of the bottle and it loses most of it's dissolving power within
a few hours.
The dissolving power of coke is mostly due to the carbonic acid in it that starts decomposing into CO2 and water once the
bottle is opened and the pressure released, this is why coke goes "flat".
There is a small amount of phosphoric acis in coke as well but it is not enough to do any noticeable dissolving.
Wild Catmage November 5th, 2003, 06:11 PM

I learnt something in biochemistry today :) - Strong acids and alkalis can denature proteins. A change in pH alters the charges
on the R g
groups of certain amino acids, and so disrupts ionic bonds. Prolonged exposure to acid or alkali can even break the peptide
linkages between amino acids.
"The tissue of the stomach is protected by a later of mucus into which bicarbonate is secreted as an acid neutralizer. The
integrity of this mucus lining keeps us from being burned by our own stomach acid." -http://www.marvistavet.com/html/
body_helicobacter_infection.html
Ammonal November 7th, 2003, 09:26 AM

I hate to sound stupid but someone once said "that there is no such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid answer" besides
the point. My old lady is a nurse and I just recalled a conversation with her about cleaning up the outpatients room after
someone came in with their arm torn off from a grain auger... the person was apparently bleeding profusely. This person
survived and after they shipped him off to a ward the nurses had to clean the outpatients room (emergency ward?) she told
me that they used a battery powered Blacklight fluorescent tube which made all the blood stand out like magic markers do
under blacklights.
If this is the case why use 'Luminol' and darkness to find blood traces when a black light is much simpler. I may well be wrong
but I thought it was worth asking.
Kid Orgo November 10th, 2003, 02:14 AM

"eggshell" refers to the color of paint, not a type. It's a slightly yellow off white. Enamels tend to go on thick, but that's not
really relevant.
The shit painters use to really seal the fuck out of a stained surface is a shellac-based paint made by Zinsser, called BIN.
Almost nothing will leech through a coat or two of BIN. You can then throw a matching color on top of it, and it'll cover.
As a practical note, it's best to mix the BIN (white) with a color near that of the one you'll paint over it (oil or water based) so
it'll cover better, saving you an extra coat or two.
apathyboy November 14th, 2003, 04:31 AM

I was reading this thread, and it seems like there's some confusion as to what luminol does. It does not react with DNA, but
with the iron (hemoglobin) in your blood. While destroying the DNA with something like lye might make it impossible to
identify who's blood it is, it still leaves you the problem of explaining to the cops how your basement got sprayed with huge
arcs of blood, which apparently makes them suspicious.
http://www.deakin.edu.au/forensic/Chemical%20Detective/Luminol_test.htm
You could always get around that by pretending to commit suicide: waste your co-worker/significant other/pizza boy, dispose of
their body (dinner anyone?), and clean up with some lye. Slit your own wrists and flail about for a bit before "you realize you
have too much to live for" and call an ambulance. Simple explanation for the blood, and most people wouldn't accuse
someone who just tried to kill themselves of a murder.
Or, being the mad scientists you all are (have neighbours who hear the loud booms and cursing coming from your yard
explain this), just liberally dust/spray the place with whatever iron compound you happen to have handy, and tell the cops that
one of your experiments exploded and covered the place in iron. They'd never believe that one person's blood covered an
entire floor of your house.
Rhadon November 14th, 2003, 10:27 AM

It does not react with DNA, but with the iron (hemoglobin) in your blood. When I got it right the luminol does react with certain
iron(III)-, copper- and cyanide compounds. If it's true, you could do what apathyboy proposed and just paint all walls of the
room which is spilled with blood with a color that contains and a large amount of a suitable substance, thus covering the
characteristic shape of blood stains (which would give you away) with a uniform luminescence (so you don't even need pigs'
blood for it). But I wouldn't say that the scene is covered with the substance because of an explosion (this would make you
prone for further investigations) but because you liked to paint the room with a color which you made yourself. Copper
compounds might be a good choice for that.
I just found something about experiments that have been done with luminol:
From our experimental results, luminol glows strongest in alkaline medium - e.g. common cleaning agents, which means the
glowing of luminol will usually be even brighter after the blood-stained materials are washed by the criminals with alkaline
cleaning agents. Among the agents tested, luminol glows strongest when the blood stain is washed with bleach. It is most
advisable to conduct the test at around thirty degree Celsius. Luminol still glows in the presence of different organic solvents
and on different working surfaces. Through our further investigations, not all Fe(III) ions can catalyse this reaction as iron in
haemoglobins do. It is shown that reaction of luminol with H2O2 is an oxidation instead of reduction, and that it would be
hindered, but not destroyed, by acid.
IDTB November 14th, 2003, 01:59 PM

This may not be too helpful, but I figured I should throw it out there. I hear cows blood is almost identical, or at least usable
to humans. So, it must have alot of consistances with ours. If you were to contaminate a crime scene with large amounts of
cow blood(think, with reason) would they test every bit of it or would they go with an assumption?
dana_m_h November 15th, 2003, 12:37 AM

i have a bright idea (real bright lol) go out on a wrought iron balcony and spray down the area your standing and spray it down
every 2-3 mins with some HCl and do this on the 5th floor or higher. this is if you have to clean up blood from a murder do
not do this otherwise because spraying things with HCl isnt smart (just lettin you ppl know if you did spray stuff with HCl you
will end up with acid burns on you ,your stuff, your apartment and the police will be suspicious about the acid holes through
your floor) [yes in chem class acid will burn through about anything my teacher heated a big beaker of HCl too fast and the
beaker shattered spilling acid across the floor it burned through the linolium in some places in under 5 mins. 1 spot he missed
burned through the lab table (1-1/2 inch coated wood)]
if this post offends anyone i dont mean it i wrote in 3 minuits ona caffine high hehehehe
Chade November 15th, 2003, 09:01 AM

After a few more chem classes, you might notice the acids get less powerful as they get more dilute. There's no problem using
this on a patio (HCl is sold as patio cleaner for that purpose), or on resistant plastics and masonry. I don't think anyone was
suggesting shampooing their carpets with HCl (at least I hope not) but bleach will also screw up your clothes, and most people
use that when they're cleaning up without any significant property damage.
Now that it occurs to me, as far as carpets and curtains go, I think a solution of biological washing powder would work very well.
After all, that's designed to attack a whole range of organic molecules, presumably the enzymes would attack the blood cells
themselves, and possibly the DNA within them too.
Jacks Complete November 16th, 2003, 08:20 AM

Chade said:
biological washing powder
Strange. I was telling my parents a similar thing last night, about a rat that ate some dishwasher tablets. We figure it didn't
eat, just knawed, as it is still alive. Anyway, point is, in Chemistry A-level, we did some stuff on biological washing powder,
soap, dishwasher tablets, etc.
Modern automatic powders are so powerful they will eat holes through cotton if you leave them in it.
Use a warm solution (40 degree wash?) and it will rip through anything biological. The enzymes just eat everything - blood,
egg, gravy. You have seen the adverts!
I recall we put something like a chicken leg into one beaker, and it stripped the flesh off over a few weeks. The crud in a
dishwasher gets even harsher treatment, and dissolves away.
That would do for a few traces of blood or whatever.
Of course, we need to know for sure. DNA is pretty fragile once it is out of the protection of the cell - it will oxidise in air, for
example, but even a trace can be a problem.
Anyone done biology and chemistry, who can think of a sure test?
Psyiko January 8th, 2004, 05:47 PM

hey yall, is 6 M HCl enough to denature the blood?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Alarm?!
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View Full Version : Alarm?!
AfterRain May 8th, 2002, 11:46 AM

I've been tryin' to read up on Security System/bugular alarms but no site really has an info, on how to kill the system... I need anyinfo on anything about them! Thanks...
You ever see Entrapmeant , How she turns the one alarm off with a remote, How is that done if its true?
Snipie May 8th, 2002, 03:21 PM

Often it is easier to beat the sensors than the whole security system. Because if you deactivate some high level security systems, the security company sees that (they poll the
alarm system every minute (or so)), and if that happens in the middle of the night, they will send someone to check it out.
The best thing to do is buy some sensors and try to bypass them. Start with the simple ones, like magnetic switches (I believe they are called read contacts).
To bypass simple read contacts you first check if they are N.O. (Normally Open) or N.C. (Normally Closed), they if they are N.O. you simply cut the wire, and if they are N.C.
you connect the two wires together.
Some high-tech read contacts use a resistor in them, so you cant simply reroute the wires. An other difficulty is that normally the read contacts are on the wrong side of the
door (i.e. on the inside). So you have to make a magnetic sensor to scan for the read contacts.
An other option to bypass these sensors is to glue a magnet under the sensor, so no matter what happens, the magnet holds the read contact in the right position.
If your not familiar with electronics, I suggest that you buy some basic books and some equipment (multi meter).
O, and in real life it will be much more difficult and time consuming to bypass security systems than you see in the movies (unfortunately).
SATANIC May 8th, 2002, 09:55 PM

the best way to find outbout alarms is to pretend you are interseted in buying one. (what i did!) go to a few alarm / security / general electronics store, and talk to them about
what you want in an alarm.
If you pretend to be a bit dumb, they will speil off a whole load of crap, but ask the questions you want to know, like "so whenever someone opens the window with [insert
product] attatched to it, what happens?". if he replies somethinhg like "uh, the alarm goes off" then you're at the wrong place. (yes, i did get that at one place)
Keep checking around until you get the gut who says "well, this is a mercury tilt switch, so whenever someone shakes the window, or tries to enter through the window,
mercury will flow along the switch, joining the two contacts, and activating the alarm".
Straight away, you know that to defeat that particular alarm, all you have to do is cut the wire. ( If the contacts need to be joined to trigger the alarm, then all you have to do
is find a way of stopping them comoing in contact....)
Keep going until you get all the info you need. If you are serious about breaking an entering, this is essential "homework".
AfterRain May 9th, 2002, 04:11 PM

Yea, I do need to get alot of Books of electronics , i have 2 muti-meters, got them from 2 jobs. But I know this is prob not true,but if you've seen Entrapment in the beginin',
the bitch deactivates an alarm with a radio transmitter, Is it possible to make one of these to do that? Ok this is all for now. O wait, Question, if you could get the main box
where all the alarm shit is, all the boards and the like, could you open it up, and un-connect the sensors for that area you are workin' on? But the alarm would still be on,Would
the alarm trip ? or would that alarm be by-passed? THANKS !
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Keep going until you get all the
info you need. If you are serious about breaking an entering, this is essential "homework". <hr /></blockquote><--
- Dude im a work in progress. Tryin' Shit, Learnin' shit. But my prob is that no one i know does this, so it's hard doin' all this readin', It would be a lil bit easier if there was a
mentor type dude to help with ideas and what not,ya know...
[ May 09, 2002, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: AfterRain ]
drstrangelove May 9th, 2002, 06:21 PM

If the system is older than about 1995 models it is possible to spray liqiud glue over the sensor. You will know its not working anymore if the red light no longer flashes when
walk past. This is good if you only need access to one area.
Snipie May 9th, 2002, 08:51 PM

It all depends on how good the security system is. Cheap security systems dont have high level security sensors, and are very easy to bypass. But if it is high-tech than it is
not that simple (sometimes nearly impossible). With high-tech I mean that the main box polls all the sensors now and than. In that case you cant simply un-connect the
sensors.
The best thing to start with is build your own security system.
From the scratch, design every single bit (except the sensors).
Than, after you installed it in your room, try to bypass it.
Than upgrade the system and try again.
Entrapment: Only if the security system was made to be deactivate by a remote controller, it is possible to deactivate the alarm system.
But even if the security system can be deactivated that way it is highly doubtful that you can make such a device to do so.
I mean, with some old systems (to secure your car or motorcycle) it was very easy, just transmit all the possible codes, and in time (sometimes less than 5 minutes) you got
the right code and the car was unlocked. But the high-tech security systems on buildings use a key (not a real key) that changes every time you transmit something. So you
cant scan for the frequently and record it.
scizzor December 15th, 2003, 11:19 PM

I used to sell systems for A.D.T. A simple way to disable the security system was to just find the phone line outside and snip it, therefore disabling the connection and it does
not send any signal to the command center. Now this would be asked by the customer rarely every now and then(everyone should know the security system runs through the
phone line) if they had a problem with that ,we would sell them either a wireless back up(cordless backup)costing them 1000 and up or just a (majority of the time)simple$40
phone tamper, henceforth the line is cut and the alarm goes off but no signal is transmitted. you can bet most the time they do not have the cell back up, but i have been
suprised quite a few times! By the way, hello everyone, this is my first post, I am a new member and glad I found my way home.
kingspaz December 16th, 2003, 07:25 PM

why is this in chemistry related?! :rolleyes:
flashpoint December 16th, 2003, 09:36 PM

Well if you read NBK's section on blocking IR detectors with soap bubbles, that might assist you as well
priapo December 17th, 2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by AfterRain
....but if you've seen Entrapment in the beginin', the bitch deactivates an alarm with a radio transmitter, Is it possible to make one of these to do that? Ok this is all for now.
....
Well, I haven't seen entrapment but I suppose that the "radio transmitter" they use a GSM jammer to avoid the alarm system calling the security company. Gsm alarms are
quite popular here and that's why these jammers are used for.
nonstop December 17th, 2003, 07:25 PM

scizzor wrote:
"A simple way to disable the security system was to just find the phone line outside and snip it, therefore disabling the connection and it does not send any signal to the
command center."
But wont the security agency know that there is a system failiure ?
That they have no connection with the alarm/detectors..
Coz after all u will break the link between the alarm/detectors and the security company when cutting the line.
nbk2000 December 17th, 2003, 10:05 PM

That's assuming a dedicated line. Most places don't.
Cellular is possible though and needs to be jammed.
Flake2m December 23rd, 2003, 02:50 PM

Security systems vary according to age, security level and setup.
A security system for a school is going to be setup differently to a home, as it would have multiple access terminals and more zones. There would be more active systemssuch
as motion/IR sensors.
A home system is going to be much simpler and rely more on passive systems such as reed switches and locks.
It is best to try to stake out the place 1st before you try anything, to see if there is anything that you want and also to figure out security systems. Get an idea on how many
IR sensors there are, where they are, also check out access terminals and possible escape routes (you don't want to get caught on your way out after a chem lab raid).
I don't know much about security systems but I do know that no system is unbeatable. I also know that the human element is often where security is weakest.
Efraim_barkbit December 23rd, 2003, 04:01 PM

Personaly, if I where to become as desperate as needing to access a "restricted" location, I would try too minimize the risks, wich do not include bypassing an alarm.
Maybee someone has a special target, wich is located inside a "secure" area, protected by alarm. but then again, is the "pay" really worth the risk/effort of taking on a larmed
site?
If it where to be done, What about cutting the power to the location? If its just one of those cheap alarms that just sounds a siren, it should work by cutting the power, but
not with
those which are connected to a security company.
In sweden, we have those metal "lockers" everywhere in the towns. I learned somewhere that these contains switches/fuses for the power supply to small areas (couple of
houses?).
these "lockers" can be opened with a ordinary "triangle key" if Im not mistaken.
This would be a very easy way to cut the power for someone. I have actually been wanting to test that for a long time, just to see if it works. (cutting power, not bypassing an
alarm, of course.)
vulture December 23rd, 2003, 06:12 PM

I've got an alarmsystem myself.
Tamper with the electricity and it'll go to backup power. It runs 72hr on backup.
Tamper with the cables --> sabotage alarm.
Tamper with the sensors/siren/CPU --> sabotage alarm.
Hold the house owner at gunpoint and force him to type the code --> forced code --> silent alarm.
I don't know what would happen if you'd cut the phone line, but here in Belgium phonelines are buried in the ground, atleast a foot deep. Switchboxes are heavy duty and
protected with special locks.
ShadowAlchemist December 25th, 2003, 06:43 AM

In my travels i have found that most residential alarm systems are fairly basic.
2-5 IR passive sensors, 1 screamer a keypad and possibly a backup battery.
More than likely the residants are paying $2/day to have their system monitered by the security firm which means in most cases, when an alarm is activated, an "Auto-
Dialer"(like a modem, usually independant line) literally calls the security command centre and alerts them to the alarm being triggered.
Now the common conception is that when you cut the power, the alram is turned off..WRONG for 2 reasons.
1. Most alarms have a backup battery which can power the system for 24-72 hours.
2. In SOME systems, when the power is cut, the auto dialer is activated and alerts agency that a problem has occured. more than likely 1-2 guards will be at location ASAP..
I have had much success with cutting phone line, breaking down front door, ignoring screamer and taking 5 minutes to complete task.
For night raids it is usually a better option to simeltaneously cut phone line & power(in that order-think auto redial) and then proceed to enter roof/window etc.
Now dont quote me, as every system is very different and i have only vriefly explained residential systems..Comercial is a different story alltogether!! (most have numerous
dialers, which dial if 1 or the other is cut)
Now home invasions are a different story as well and are sometimes necessary to accomplish task at hand. How many people do you know that activate their IR sensors
before they go to bed?? [WINK]
Dont do anything i wouldnt do,
Mitch

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Night Vision Devices
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View Full Version : Night Vision Devices
nbk2000 November 28th, 2001, 08:18 PM

I ran across a PDF at a defense contractors association w ebsite ( http://www .dtic.mil/ndia/ ) that showed the new Gen 5 NVG.
Don't remember the name of the file since I just copied out the pictures and deleted it since it w as boring MIL-speak about fiscal schedules and such.
The item shown (no designation yet) has 4 tubes.
http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/NVG_GEN5.jpg
Tw o to the front for normal stero vision, and one on each side for peripheral vision.
It has a 100 degree field of view with 33 degree in stereo.
http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/NVG_GEN5_%20FOV.jpg
And best (worst?) of all? Integrated FLIR using an integrated uncooled thermal detector that show s up in the very center (the square part).
How'd you like to get a pair of these off a JBT? :)
Oh, and flares and bright lights won't really bother the intensifer part because of the improved gain control, and even if it washed out, the FLIR is unaffected.
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 11-28-2001).]
vulture November 29th, 2001, 09:56 AM

Wouldn't that thing require a huge battery because of the massive energy need?
Aside of that, i would want to have one of those...
You w ould be able to set off your explosives at night without attracting suspicion by using a flashlight...
And w ith the flir you could nicely see heat variations in the explosion...
[This message has been edited by vulture (edited 11-29-2001).]
nbk2000 August 29th, 2006, 08:26 AM

Digital Nightvision Headset:
http://ww w.tekgear.com/index.cfm?pageID= 90&prodid=66&section=83&nodelist=1,83
Only $900. :)
Jacks Complete August 29th, 2006, 10:09 AM

But are they any good? There's precious little info on there, and it's a mono set.
If I ever get over to the US, I'll be buying some of this stuff. It's all legal over here, but you can't get anyone to either ship it or supply it for less than 200% mark-up...
I want two of the Weaver digital scopes to mod into a set of stereo goggles. $199 from binoculars.com, last I looked. 400 ($650) over here!
sprocket August 31st, 2006, 01:05 PM

There is indeed very little information about these and merely a hint of its specs.
From w hat I can read the unit doesn't have a thermographic (FLIR) camera and can merely see shortwave IR like all CCDs. You can plug in a thermographic camera, but then
you're looking at an additional $5000 in cost and some added weight.
I guess we'll have to wait a little longer until thermographic cameras are light enough to be head-mounted and integrated into night vision goggles.
BTW, w hy is this thread in chemistry related? :)
c.Tech September 1st, 2006, 06:09 AM

You w ould be able to set off your explosives at night without attracting suspicion by using a flashlight...
Doesn't the lenses at the front light up making it look more obvious that your up to mischief, or is this just another one of those things that only exists in the movies?
nbk2000 September 1st, 2006, 06:38 AM

Nightvision devices emit no light from the front that is visible to the naked eye.
The glowing green you see in the movies is just a special effect used so you can see the actors movements. In real life, that'd get you shot.
The digital visor uses IR LEDs and a CCD imaging chip, rather than a amplifier tube like true NVD's use.
Thing I've alw ays wondered about, and never been able to find an answ er to, is: What's the shortest duration pulse of light visible to the human eye? A millisecond,
microsecond, femtosecond?
There must be a lower limit to it.
By making a device that emitted full spectrum light in pulses too short for the human eye to see, but not too fast for a digital viewer, you could have full-color vision in total
darkness, without giving away your position.
And, because of the extremely short duration of the light pulses, range-gating could be applied to provide depth perception/ranging, as it'd be acting like LIDAR. :)
c.Tech September 1st, 2006, 06:54 AM

By making a device that emitted full spectrum light in pulses too short for the human eye to see, but not too fast for a digital viewer, you could have full-color vision in total
darkness, without giving away your position.
Would the short clicks work as a strobe light effect or would they all seem to join together, like the w ays old films were made?
If they cause a strobe effect it would cause disorientation and possible seizures/fits, which w ouldn t be very useful at times that you need to be undetected.
Wouldn t c onstantly turning on and off at a fast rate cause overheating in the LED 's?
sprocket September 1st, 2006, 07:02 AM

I think the minimum perceivable pulse duration is highly dependant on the intensity (and wavelength) of it. In other words, the energy of the pulse. At least the eye will detect
light in this manner. The real question is if the brain can interpret this information or if it's simply overwhelmed and filters it out.
If there w as a low er limit it'd probably be on the scale of microseconds to nanoseconds. Photographic flashes are on the millisecond range, and they're quite visible.
nbk2000 September 1st, 2006, 07:11 AM
Wow, I didn't have time to edit my last post before getting tw o replies. :)
Since the human eye sees 30FPS as a continous stream, and if you used 30 nano-second pulses per second for your imaging, than that means the emitters are dark for
99.999997% of the time. Hardly a dazzling beacon. ;)
A very detailed explaination of the types and uses of range-gating for imagingv(8mb):
w w w2.foi.se/rapp/foir0856.pdf
Surveillance camera that uses active imaging and range-gating:
http://ww w.obzerv.com/techno/core-expertise.html#range
The video demos are quite fascinating to w atch, too. :)
nbk2000 March 31st, 2007, 04:37 AM

http://camouflage.com/colornightvision.php
By using mechanical filters, with a single monochrome tube, they can produce color images using dim full-spectrum moonlight.
An old idea (to me) that someone with the money finally made real.
Jacks Complete April 3rd, 2007, 07:13 PM

NBK, your first link is now dead, it 404's. Hacking the URL works, though. http://ww w.obzerv.com/EN/video/jeanPassVSact_large.html show s us that this isn't a great idea,
though. Sending a 900nm IR beam at the enemy is going to get you shot very rapidly if they have NVG, range gating or not. It is very smart, though, and the snow demo gives
a good indication of the uses for it. (For anyone not familar, range gating is the process of only taking a reading at the point you are expecting a reading. Liken it to the way
you look though the chainlink fence at the inmates, but using a fast shutter rather than focus.)
The second one (colour) is interesting, but it isn't really much use, since it only w orks down to 1/4 moon, and things like the Sony nightshot CCD are already as good or better
than that. You can try this at home if you want, take your NVGs and fit a set of rotating w heels to it with matched colour filters. Rotation at 10+RPM should work.
As regards fast laser pulses, it won't work. The eye is an aggregator system, it simply adds up the incoming photons. Add more photons, they get counted. You could go for a
system where very few photons extra are thrown out, however. If you look at a short laser pulse, these are often down in the nanosecond range, but they are totally visible. At
really low pow ers (total numbers of photons), it might work, however.
Note that a lot of modern systems using LEDs pulse the LEDs really fast to save power, due to the way the eye w orks, they can be off for 90+% of the time, yet are still
perfectly bright. You can test this by scanning the lights really fast, and you w ill see them strobe.
nbk2000 April 21st, 2007, 10:59 PM

http://ww w.rulli.lanl.gov/
A fascinating technology that can image objects into 3D, such as trees, showing their interior layout, as well as defeating camofluage, using nearly zero ambient light (single
photons! :eek: ).
Alexires April 22nd, 2007, 01:23 AM

Shit on me batman!
That RULLI is pretty scary stuff. The timing function gives it the ability to gauge distance which is pretty dangerous too, but remember, its just light. There is a maximum range
that the RULLI can "see" at, but still, very scary.
Depending on what w avelength they use for the laser, it MIGHT be possible to interfere w ith it using some kind of non-visible gas for example, if the laser w as a IR laser, then
CO2 may be used to interfere with it.
Think Nitrogen grenades or CO2 grenades for use in changing the density of the air as w ell as the way the photons interact w ith the medium.
Expanding on that, you may be able to make grenades that are either hot or cold, depending on the air temperature around. If it is a hot night and you are in a field and scared
of being picked up by RULLI, a compressed N2 grenade w ill shoot off cold N2 gas which will cause a kind of ripple in the imaging and confuse the sensor.
Think looking above a fire and seeing all the ripples. Same deal if it is cold and you use a hot grenade.
Also, remember they are just pictures. Imagine trying to see an experienced person in ghillie suit hiding in shrubbery. Doesn't matter if you have 360 photos from all around and
collate it into a 3D image, the person is still hidden.
Jacks Complete April 24th, 2007, 07:17 PM

Alexires, I seriously doubt that using a cold gas would do anything at all. It might wobble the range readings a bit, but it wouldn't acheive much, and nor would a little distortion
change much - the image through a fire is still fairly recognisable.
What you could do is detect the precisely timed laser pulses. Given a total reflectivity (after scattering) of 50%, half the photons will never go back to the detector, and you can
easily pick those up. You could blind the sensor easily, since detectors designed to trap a single event photon with a multiplier are easily overwhelmed by a few billion, which is
still a dim light. You would need the source to be bright at the right w avelength, however.
The reason this can see through camo is because it sees the gaps in the netting and the solid object behind. It is almost the same as the way a person can see a thing behind a
hedge, like a car, and work out it is a car, from the many small bits of light that get through the myriad gaps. In this case, how ever, they are moving the camera, rather than
the target moving.
However, this is quite neat. I'm sure someone will think of a neat imaging application for this that can't be done with a stereo pair of photomultiplier tubes, 2 w ebcams and a
small PC.
simply RED April 25th, 2007, 09:33 AM

Do sb know the range night vision models work (in nanometers). It should be IR anyway...
Alexires April 25th, 2007, 10:08 PM

Your typical shitty outside IR camera is about 850 nm.
This (http://www .gamma-sci.com/PDFs/ANVIS.pdf) pdf puts Gen3 at about 650nm.
These digital cameras have the range of
Silver220S (http://ww w.electrophysics.com/Browse/Brw_ProductLineCategory.asp?CategoryID=157&Area=IS) - 850nm to 2500nm
Silver420M (http://ww w.electrophysics.com/Browse/Brw_ProductLineCategory.asp?CategoryID=156&Area=IS) - 3600nm to 5100nm
Jade590L (http://w ww.electrophysics.com/Browse/Brw_ProductLineCategory.asp?CategoryID=161&Area=IS) - 7700nm to 11000nm
and this (http://w ww.electrophysics.com/Brow se/Brw _ProductLineCategory.asp?CategoryID= 91&Area=IS) camera is a multi spectrum camera. I'm assuming that it covers the
whole IR spectrum.
Interesting site (http://www.how nightvisionworks.com/)
Another one (http://w ww.nightvisionweb.com/ir_illuminators.htm) w ith various IR illuminators possibly to be used in your home defence.
nbk2000 April 26th, 2007, 02:24 AM

650nm is bright visible red, like a laser point.
Jacks Complete May 1st, 2007, 11:19 AM
NBK is right, shine 650nm light about and it's pretty bright. 635 is where most modern laser pointers are at, and 650 out to 670 are the older gen laser pointers, which are not as
bright to the human eye for the power output. I have a 5mW at 670, and it is really dim, a 635 at 1mW appears far brighter.
Either way, 650 is not even IR.
Mr Science May 22nd, 2007, 03:21 PM

2 Things I have found:
http://ww w.unitednuclear.com/novairext.htm
^After reading this, I discovered it is only the cheaper quality IR led's that produce red light, and higher quality produce no visible light whatsoever. And judging by the graph on
the page, it looks safe to say most IR energy comes from 390nm. Or am I reading this w rong.
http://ww w.glowproducts.com/glowsticks/infraredglowsticks/
^Do these light up an area with IR, or are these only markers? I am curious.
Sorry if this isnt contributing much, but I just thought it would be helpful to bring to people's attention.
Jacks Complete June 3rd, 2007, 10:01 AM

390nm is far violet verging tow ards UV. http://ledmuseum.candlepow er.us/seventh/3902aa.htm
That graph you link to is completely wrong - the text all talks about 940nm (IR) - I guess they just put the w rong picture in there. In fact, if you look at the UV lamp, it uses the
same graph!
As for the IR cyalumes, they are just like regular lightsticks. If you look at them, they are quite bright, but they are terrible for actual throw. Most likely markers only, unless you
are using NVG up close (due to the high gain)
captain clay June 3rd, 2007, 04:31 PM

This is my first post,so I hope my interjection is helpful.
You can now buy infra-red lenses for sure-fire and streamlight brand flashlights, I wonder about how much theoretical gain these would have mounted on a rifle in conjunction
with the night vision goggles.
Jacks Complete June 15th, 2007, 11:08 AM

Incandescent lights give out about 80% of the input power as IR, from memory. Using an IR filter gives you a lot of light, and you get further gains from the NVG. So you can
see for miles. But, as ever, you are a beacon to those with NVG's looking for you.
plutobound June 15th, 2007, 02:52 PM

This is a comparitive review of 4 IR illuminators
http://ww w.ar15.com/content/products/lights/irIlluminatorShootOut.html
nbk2000 June 15th, 2007, 04:08 PM

While NVD's are great to have, it may occur that you don't have any, but your opponent does.
How do you see in the dark, without giving yourself away to your better-equiped enemies?
White-light is out of the question, and putting a red filter over the light doesn't impede detection by NVD's, since it'll let through far more in IR than visible red.
Ah...but there is an answer!
Electroluminescent panels. :)
Better known as the glow ing green light called 'Indi-Glo', as used in Timex watches.
Well, the green light is for shit for stealth, since that is still visible to NVD's, though much less than incandescent light sources.
What you are looking for is a battery-powered device that uses a blue EL panel, as blue is invisible to NVD's on reflection (still visible directly), giving you enough light to move
around and bright enough for detail work at extremely close range.
I got mine as a travel alarm-clock for $6.
Because of the very deep blue light, it's difficult to keep your eyes focused on things, and you can't see anything dark-on-dark (not enough contrast), but for navigating in
buildings or where the surface is light enough (sand/snow), it's useable.
And even to the naked eye, to anyone looking from more than 50 yards, the reflected light is invisible, though direct is still quite visible.
nbk2000 June 19th, 2007, 07:44 PM

Found a patent, US6611200, for a "Tint Buster".
This is a surveillance device that uses an infrared light source, like a filtered spotlight, coupled to an IR sensitive videocamera, to see through standard window tinting, on either
cars or building window s.
Cobalt.45 September 13th, 2008, 11:45 AM

Has anyone had a chance to try the "EyeClops" night vision toy? Ad says "see up to 50 feet" but I'm guessing the IR source that's supplied might be the limiting factor. Not
cheap, either (~ $80 US).
If you used a portable IR source, these might be useful...:cool:
Another interesting toy is an up to 400X magnifier that displays on a TV.

http://jakks.com/construct.php?section=toys&subsection=ces2008&page=ces2008
iHME September 13th, 2008, 04:20 PM

I found these plans for a homemade nightvision device on some random forum.
Compiled the original jpeg's to a pdf for you people.
It is technically similar to that Jakks toy that Cobalt posted.

It uses a low lux ccd camera module, some ir leds and a viewfinder from a camcorder.
Considering that I have one old sony video8 camcorder with a dead battery and conveniently removable viewfinder I might even try this, some day.
Edit:
Damn, it did not include my attachment.
Oh bloody hell, how did abiword make four jpeg's that have the combined size of 650kb to a 12mb pdf?
Well here, grab some rapidshit of the original jpeg's:

http://rapidshare.com/files/145013138/diy_nv_gear.zip
Jacks Complete September 17th, 2008, 05:50 PM

You can buy these commercially. Or use a Sony w ith the Nightshot hooked up so it w orks daytime.
The Weaver digital NVG scope works like this - it's a low lux camera and a fairly powerful IR thrower, with a good eyepeice and a video out jack. They are <$200 or around
400 (Yes, $800 nearly - the UK gets ripped off for that sort of stuff!)
Cobalt.45 September 17th, 2008, 06:05 PM

They are < $200 or around 400 (Yes, $800 nearly - the UK gets ripped off for that sort of stuff!)If you w ant one, just say the word and I will be glad to purchase it here in the
US (w ith your funds, obviously;)) and send it across the pond to you, no problem.
That kind of a rip makes me pissed!:mad:
In my fit of pique, I didn't stop to think that this was better PM'ed. My bad.
waveguider September 27th, 2008, 09:40 AM

Is the ''Weaver digital NVG scope'' this device?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Weaver-NightView-Digital-Night-Vision-Scope-_W0QQitemZ320304136005QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2008092 6?IMSfp=TL080926155009r18789
http://ww w.optics4birding.com/nightview -digital-nightvision-3850.html
If so then that's a good price!

I also have this in my bookmarks which you guys might like, it's a DIY project similar to w hat is mentioned above.
http://geektechnique.org/index.php?id=254
If I were to get one myself I would go with the follow ing because of it's 36 lines/mm which is as said one of the best gen 1 one out there.
Jacks Complete October 4th, 2008, 12:00 PM

Yes, that's the one.
The video output is a nice touch, plug it into a recorder or monitor!
iHME October 4th, 2008, 03:13 PM

I'd suggest backing up the article from geektechnique.org. The author has died recently from heart attack and I don't know if anyone is paying for the connection that keeps his
servers up.
-=HeX=- October 4th, 2008, 07:34 PM

Cobalt .45: once I get a new laptop I am buying the eyeclops device, I saw it in popular science. 80 dollars is extremely cheap for night vision devices, and I w ill be adding on
my own infra red light source. Once I buy it I will write a review of it.
waveguider October 16th, 2008, 04:26 AM

I'd suggest backing up the article from geektechnique.org. The author has died recently from heart attack and I don't know if anyone is paying for the connection that keeps his
servers up.
Poor guy, and I will do, thanks!

I have to apologise, my above post ended without me entering the link to the scope I w ould puchase (silly me).
Yukon Advanced Optics 3x42 Night Vision Waterproof Monocular:
http://ww w.amazon.com/Yukon-Advanced-Optics-Waterproof-Monocular/dp/B0002HBOPQ/ref=pd_sim_dbs_p_1
MinorFunctionary October 20th, 2008, 04:15 AM

Just a fast and dirty pdf of the geektechnique article, for those that want it.
http://rapidshare.com/files/155733687/__geektec_254.pdf.html

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > "Robot Wars" as a model for
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View Full Version : "Robot Wars" as a model for mayhem
CodeMason December 15th, 2001, 06:52 PM

Anyone who's seen the UK show, "Robot Wars" will know what I'm talking about. For those of you who haven't, competitors
simply build RC robots designed to cut, crush, flip, burn, etc., the other ones, and they are pitted against each other in an
arena with all sorts of obstacles. Not a very original idea, I remember having the thought occur to me for something almost
exactly the same when I was 6 or 7 years old, however, it's quite entertaining most of the time.
Now, the thought occured to me, that these robots would be the ultimate improvised weapons for attacks against small enemy
strongholds. They would cost a pretty penny to build, because one would have to account for extra defence mechanisms and a
wireless video camera to see what you're doing from behind the remote, but just think of the glorious destruction even a
smaller one would cause in say, a Pig station! It would be truly awesome!
As for designs, for defence, maybe use bulletproof (polycarbonate?) shielding, and a high speed motor to zip around
(although this is also an offence mechanism). For offence I'm thinking blades and razor wire adorning the surface, chain or
circular saws, 75psi or more flame thrower (<a href="http://yarchive.net/explosives/flamethrower.html">here for design</a>)
spitting out super napalm, pneumatic cannon (that might shoot say, mini-grenades or shotshells), adapted legal or illegal
firearms (make sure they can't be traced!), the possibilities are endless. And your robot would be almost unstoppable (one
way I can think of is if they bring in the military to grenade it or they dump a shitload of sand on top of it). And make sure
you have a panic button for when your machine IS finally disabled, that sets off either a really hot burning incendiary, a
powerful explosive charge, or both (re: FEA).
Thinking about this stuff makes me start drooling and wishing I had more funds in order to construct the ultimate improvised
weapon and unleash it on the FUCKERS that banned GTA3 in Australia! (Uhm, just kidding, no threats!) What are everyone
else's thoughts on this?
------------------
Live free or die! | http://codemason.cjb.net
Anthony December 15th, 2001, 08:07 PM

Waaaaaaaay ahead of youhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif I've got the radio gear, camera and mic,
audio/video transmitter and pocket TV (to attach to radio gear transmitter).
Just time and the fact that something's screwy with the video output signal on the camera is stopping me finishing it.
Idea for the robot: 4x 9.6v cordless drill motors + gearboxes running at 12v, run anyway up with either 4-6wheels or tracks if I
can get some welding done. Weapons: modular system - shotgun/grenade launcher/flamethrower. Maybe even an EFP for
underneath vehicles? Also a spotlamp with IR filter for "night vision".
Pics and videos when (if!) I finish ithttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
twinkle December 20th, 2001, 11:32 AM

I don't want to discourage you in anyway but you only could use it one time as a weapon with the benefit of surprise. The next
time you want to use it they will jam your radio control system (which is not so difficult ) so you need to make your radio
control system jam (interference) proof which will be very difficult (and very expensive)
"robots" used in bomb disposal work are using a wired control system which don't have that problem .
NoltaiR December 20th, 2001, 12:07 PM

Also a most obvious down-side to this idea is that unless it had some serious weight/size, it wouldn't be able to use any sort
of firearm/weapon that had any kind of recoil. Possibly eqipping this little 'robo-knight' with suction cups on the bottom may
solve this problem as long as they were strong enough and easy to deploy.
Also these things would have to be built purely for offense possibly for sniper missions..(because it wouldn't take much more
than a EMP shockwave to render any robot useless if the enemy was going to attack a location where the robots are at).
------------------
A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither.
-Thomas Jefferson

Why couldn't they use recoiling weapons? All they need is shock proofing, sure they might get knocked about a bit, just make
the first shot count so you don't have to re-aim.
Bear in mind that the robot that fight on RobotWars/Battle Bots weigh 100kg - heavier and *much* more stable than an
upright/crouching human. Robots this size would be difficult to transport into position (can't carry it). Although With a few
spikes they're KE alone when rolling would be enough to take out people (some of these things shift to 30mph in just a few
yards).
What kind of police force has EMP bombs?
It'd also be for fun and a safe platform to test new weapons on.
A-BOMB December 20th, 2001, 01:54 PM

Or a .50 bmg or a rpg for that matter. If they knew about these thinks they would have people out with long range rifle picking
them off before they could get into its killing radius.
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
------------------
And come to my not so done SITE HERE (http://paintball-and-stuff.freesevers.com)

Very true that they would be susceptible to snipers, but they wouldn't be used in the open. Inside buildings would be the best
for them.
Then again, how long would it take for the cops to assess the situation, realise that they need snipers, request snipers and for
them to arrive and get into position? Far too long to stop anyone dying.
Besides, how mnay snipers use a .50bmg? A pound to a penny says UK police snipers have never seen one let alone use one.
Would 3/4" - 1" steel plate see off most non-exotic sniper rounds? It'd up the weight a lot but is possible.

hhmmm....what about laminated titanium? expensive as fuck but light weight (so more weapons can be used and it will go
faster) and also rustproof. also its very strong.
maybe about 15 1mm sheets all cut to the same shape and welded alon the edges so u have a thick sheet made of thinner
sheets. then use a few of these 'slabs' welded together for the shell of the robot. this may be difficult as titanium is
supposedly difficult to weld.
EventHorizon December 20th, 2001, 11:44 PM

Judgeing from as many rounds as I've fired at steel, 3/4"-1" would stop almost anything up to the large calibers. I've yet to
see anything (up to 8mm) come even close to breeching 1" steel at 100yds. .30-06 AP will make it through 1/2" at 100yds,
but I don't think it would breech 3/4".
IIRC, I read somewhere that the .50BMG will go through 1.5" of mild steel at 880yds. Anyone have the capabilities of the
mighty 50 handy.
------------------
"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
mrloud December 21st, 2001, 05:05 AM

Perhaps the robot would be better put to use as an asassination device. It could be camoflagued as a shrub or piece of
rubbish. A black and white CCD camera will be able to see the infrared laser aiming device built into it and a silencer will
prevent it from being heard. It could be deployed from a hatch in the bottom of the control van at night and be in position
before daylight. If it were disguised as vegetation it would best be hidden near other shrubs and whatnot. Once the target has
been taken out, it would just retreat into the shrubs completely un noticed in the chaos. Before the cops arrive, the operators
would have pulled the robot back into the van and be out of town.
I suspect police stations are too secure for a robot to do much damage. You could kill/wound everyone in the reception area
but getting the robot beyond that would be difficult. You'd best wait for some sort of police parade where you have hundreds of
officers in the street. If you wanted a highly lethal but generalised attack, the top of the robot could be bristling with mortar
tubes. A fuse is ignited and the tubes fire one by one as the robot races down a busy street or shopping centre. Each mortar
launches a small metal tube of black powder which is in a slightly bigger carboard tube full of ball bearings.
Very easy yet very detructive.
twinkle December 21st, 2001, 06:16 AM

I agree with mrloud when you realy want to build such a robot you better could use it as a scout ,small , very fast ,lightweight
and camouflaged (also for heat and electric shielded ) it as good as possible ,using a camera and audio equipment for
instance an (moveable) aiming microphone .If you would like to arm it I would keep it simple , some flashbang - and teargas
granates for creating confusion when it has been noticed the teargas and flashbang could be electronic ignited and the
launched .
AS far as emp weapons used by the police what I have seen on TV (discovery)is that they had a small RC car launched from a
police car it drove under another car this small RC car had a big high voltage (some 10.000 volt o so ) condensor which had an
antenna on one of the poles
this antenna hits the chassis of the chased car and the high voltage kills the electronic parts of the car so the motor stops.
DaRkDwArF December 21st, 2001, 07:39 AM

better idea, if your being paid for the assasination make it a mobile claymore witha 30 - 360 degree field of destruction... not
only will it destroy the evidence but it will do a hell of a lot more damage then a 12ga mounted to it (what if you miss, guard
stomps it, it gets shot, etc...) just rig it with explosives and be done with it
------------------
Do or Do Not, there is no Try
BoB- December 21st, 2001, 09:09 AM

A cross-breed of the 2 would be unstoppable, a 12gauge full auto grenade launcher blasts the robot a path where it can reach
its target, then a massive frag-charge detonates.
I think gas driven motors would make a more powerful hunter-killer bot, an old motorcycle engine would give plenty of
horsepower to carry the armored bot, the ignition switch would also be R/C controlled so the robot can still hide.
Hmmm, maybe even a telescoping muffler so the bot can cross shallow water?
The bot cold be covered in flaps of titanium and/or wrapped in kevlar to prevent a sniper taking it out.
hmm, twin mounted 12-gauge full auto grenade launchers with 100 round capacity, nitromethane fed engine, and lightweight
kelvar armor.
It could blast its way into the building, then fire its main weapon at the target, a claymore like darkdwarf described.
Okay, now I'm getting ahead of myself.
In reality, the bots antenna would have to be really long unless it was built around a cellphone and modem, the CCTV signal
could then be broadcast over the modem using a PC board to any PC in the world that dials the modems number.
On second thought they already have a system like this, webcams are getting cheaper, and cheaper, the lens could be
waterproofed, then an IR, or nightvision monocle could be attached.
Would require a 'net connection though which could obviously be traced.
A while ago my little cousin wanted me to buy him this lego set, these werent any legos! It included a small computer board,
which can be programmed to do specific movements at specific times using your PC, in other words, your lego creation can
move around your house, go to the specific spot you programmed it to, then return.
It would require no R/C equipment, it could blast out the door of the target, then go to the room where the target is and
detonate its main charge.
It wasnt lego cheap though, I *think* it was 200 bucks.
------------------
Teamwork is essential.
It lets you blame someone else.
Bitter December 21st, 2001, 10:43 AM

Where would you get kevlar-type stuff for a robot ? You couldn't use the stuff that they make model planes out of because I
think that's kevlar 49. You will need kevlar 129, if I am not mistaken, which is almost impossible to get hold of unless you
start cutting up flak jackets.
------------------
"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your
impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."
NoltaiR December 21st, 2001, 10:57 AM

haha!!! I think this has been my favorite topic so far.. with the input so far anyone just
about has the plans for the perfect robotic assassin! We have covered that it needs to
camouflaged, silent (the silencer would also cut a large amount of the recoil off--which is
nice), and extremely mobile.. the idea I like best is making it self destructive. Just think
about this little story I have made up...
One day in a foreign police station, three chiefs are sitting down for their daily doughnut
break fast. Outside a genius hitman has created a small robot that is equipped to do the
assassination for him. The robot rolls up to the nearest bush and looks through the
windows with its camera.. the camera can be is being viewed by the hitman as well as
being read by the robots own AI. The robot pulls out a silenced handgun (has to be some
kind that any person would have) that has been built onto its arm. While scanning the
windows, the robot detects movement and heat behind the secretaries desk with its IR
laser. The gun is raised, sited in, and fired. A drop to the floor that is heard by the robots
super microphones confirms the hit. Suddenly there is panic in the building as the noise
grows louder. The robot waits.. seconds later the first cop walks out of the building ready
to fire. The robot does not hesitate to fire another shot at him. A second drop to the
ground is confirmed. Other personnel in the building have now confirmed the basic
direction of the shots by seeing the direction the previous cop fell. As the two other cops
head to the back fire exit the robot notices a stillness. It rolls around the building to the
back entrance of the building and waits. One of the cops sees the little robot and wonders
what is going on... he moves closer to it and suddenly a flame-thrower knocks him to the
ground with serious burns all over his face.. another bullet in him shuts him up quickly..
sirens are heard in the street nearby as backup is coming. The robot quickly shoots a few
grenades through the window to make sure everyone is out. Soon after the explosions, the
survivors come running out. A few more shots and they are disabled. The backup arrives
with the information that a killer robot is around. They are members of the local police
force as well as S.W.A.T. and the bomb squad (in case any mines have been laid). The
robot detects that he is surrounded and goes to self distruct mode. Just as the robot is
captured, it detonates. Kills all that are around him except for a few bomb squad members
who were properly dressed. They drive off in panic. The genius hitman simply watched his
little creation reek havoc on the community.. and he will have not fired a single shot
himself..
The End
hmmm.. sounded interesting to me :-)
------------------
A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither.
-Thomas Jefferson
Anthony December 21st, 2001, 11:15 AM

Titanium and kevlar aree nice if you have no budget limit, a kevlar or carbon/kevlar shell will cost you a grand very much plus.
IIRC the resin is at least or more expensive than the kevlar fabric. Multiply that several times to get it thick enough to stop
sniper rounds.
That car stoping emp thing was I think only trials, I don't think they are being put into use yet. Also, I don't think it was emp
as it conducted to the car's chassis, I think it was just a high voltage surge tat knocked everything out. Isolating and/or
grounding the sheel of a robot should make it HV proof and 3/4" of steel should provide a fair amount of emp resistance.
Someone did make a fighting robot that was controlled by mobile phone, it looked quite involved though and required a
laptop on the robot.
Although IC engines would give more power, I think electric is the way to go. Because they're near silent, don't stall, very
precise in movement and most IC engines don't have a carb that lets them run inverted.
kingspaz December 21st, 2001, 05:37 PM

aahhh...model aircraft engines are often mounted inverted and so can run at whatever angle necessary. a helicopter engine
would be the best choice in my opinion. the heli engines have a large cylinder head surface area for cooling as the engines
don;t tend to be exposed so much as the planes. all you would need to do is fit an airfilter of some sort over the carb and it
should work fine. although a petrol heli engine would probably be needed to get a big lump of metal moving. may cost quite a
bit more. alos i know tuned pipes can be fitted to glow engines and that increase power and makes them EXTREMELY quiet. i
think electric would be best though but range would be much more limited. as with real cars the limiting factor is the battery.
BoB- December 22nd, 2001, 03:36 AM

I think that for small unarmored camo bots electric is definatly the way to go, the engine could be wrapped in insulating
material, then the entire chassis filled with insulation, the resulting bot would be quiet enough to stalk its prey.
twinkle December 22nd, 2001, 06:11 AM

I think that such a small unarmed bot would be very usefull for detecting IR sensors trip wires ,microphones etc if you would
like to enter a secures terrain .
DaRkDwArF December 22nd, 2001, 08:22 PM

Here is a servo board that powers 8 servos off one serial port...
Serial Servo Board:
https://www.web-money.com/basicx/netmedia_store.cgi?cart_id=
Read the specs,

Make a wireless lan connection sharing the com port in the robots computer and then compile a program (source code is on
sorceforge somewhere plus the board comes with a vb clone of software you could use as a design example) there you go,
you now have 8 servos at your command, now within that same program you can have a webcam window (just plug a webcam
into the robots computer, a cheap logitech will do) and sound.
For hardware your better off getting a small board with all onboard components and 2 pci and an isa slot, get a 2mb wireless
card and an isa adaptor (ebay people) and then grab a low end processor (duron/celeron) and 128mb - 256mb ram and a 2-
4gb hard drive.
Of course this thing will only be allowed to run Linux/BSD because we all know that a house with no windows and gates has no
walls and a house with no walls cannot crash =).
------------------
Do or Do Not, there is no Try
[This message has been edited by DaRkDwArF (edited December 22, 2001).]
Heavy Recoil December 24th, 2001, 12:34 AM

If you have no size constraints, why not make, what would basically be a remote controlled tank. that would make more than
enough room for your modem/cellphone idea. A batch of themite would remove a chance of them tracing it to you. If you
make it big enough, you could use a door or hatch to make it look like someone was manually piloted, and a self destruct
device may make it probable looking. (I foresee some issues with thermite and a explosive) like nbk2000 posted ages
ago (1999) in a thread about tanks, a bobcat (or similar small earth mover) could be employed quite successfully. This may
also allow a few more "exotic" weapons. Gas generators, hollow charge explosive devices, copper plate projectors, rocket
launchers, large mortars, light and perhaps medium artillery, machine guns firing rounds that would make a .50 cal. Seem
like a .22 sh ort , or maybe I m just ge tting e gotistical h ttp://theforum.virtu alave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif (quite probable)
------------------
"I'm not an assassin. killing is more of a hobby with me."' Robert A. Heinlein
Jacks Complete December 1st, 2003, 04:15 PM

I have had dreams involving these systems...
From the descriptions found here, you will be sending it into the gun shop looking for a phased plasma rifle in a forty watt
range...
Anyway, I didn't re-open this thread to (just) post dumb ass comments like that!
The problem that is apparent with near-enough every single design, every idea in this thread, and with what you look at in
Robot Wars, is that every robot is designed for the arena. You couldn't get one of them into my house, regardless! *
Ok, step by step.
Drop robot onto tarmac outside the police station.
Problem 1: The robot cannot get up the curb.
The robot goes around a bit, and get onto the pavement. Hopefully the wheels don't ground it on a loose paving stone or
pothole.
Problem 2: It starts raining.
The robot was made to be waterproof, so it copes fine, and even manages to get over the grass to the paved path to the front
steps of the police station. Hanging a right, it finds the disabled access ramp, and, by stunning coincidence, it is just narrow
enough to get through, and trundles up, rather slowly, as the driver doesn't want to drop the robot off the edge, which would
leave it stuck and at the mercy of the people who are now standing, stareing at the device in front of them.
Problem 3: At the top of the steps there is a door.
Handily, the door opens as the robot trips the door sensor, sparing it the need to ram it. Sadly the operator had already
decided to drive up to it, and the door doesn't open fast enough to avoid the impact as he mis-judges it. The door frame
drags the robot to one side, spinning it around a bit.
Problem 4: The cop who is walking back to the station sees this thing that has crashed into the door, and starts looking
around for the driver.
Fortunately, the driver is round a corner 200 meters away, but this is towards the limit of non-line-of-sight for the wireless
system he is using, as he is using 802.11b and a directional aerial. Of course, the one in the robot isn't exposed like that, or
the cop would simply grab it and twist it off... because the driver can't see the cop behind him, as the camera faces forward!
The robot backs up, and enters the building...
Problem 5: The nearest cop throws his jacket over the robot, as he saw in that cool film Runaway (http://imdb.com/title/
tt0088024/) with Tom Seleck.
Our demonic creation is bested by this, so the driver trips the self-destruct, and sets fire to the entrance. Fortunately, he
doesn't decide to walk around to see the problem first...
As can be seen, there are many problems with this idea. Even if the robot was able to cope with all these things I have
described, how would it cope with a fire extinguisher coating it in foam, or even the high pressure water jet types? What would
happen when it came to the first door that didn't yield to a good kick (which, realisiticly, there wouldn't be many of in a police
station, except for fire and security doors, to keep costs down) or a flight of steps? How the hell would it call the lift?? Hell, if it
got inside the lift, the metal walls would shield it so well that the radio wouldn't ever transmit. With no radio link, you are
immobile, and without a good radio link, you are blind, even if you have control.
NBK2000's telesniper idea is far more of a goer than this.
Of course, the internal combustion engine is a good weapon in itself, indoors. Run the engine hot, and loop the exhaust back
over the top and bottom so that the shell is anti-grab hot, and with an injection of fuel into the exhaust, you have either a
smokescreen or flame thrower. If you were using normal stuff, the reduced visibility might be a problem, but since you are
four inches off the ground, and hot flame and smoke rises, and you could use a thermal imager or (more likely) near IR for
vision, you would be far less put out. Plus your eyes wouldn't sting nearly as much. Exhaust pressure could probably be used
for running a BB machine gun (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=748) as well. Yes, it would soot
up after a while, but it would be good for soft targets and area effect stuff.
Once people were aware that something was happening, your robot would soon be trapped. Simply push over a few desks in
the corridors, and lay down chairs, etc and it would get no further, as if it has to push hard it will just start burning the carpet.
Yes, it could shoot at people, etc. but they don't need to worry about that, as they just fall back once they realise it can shoot.
Once the idea has got around (over the tannoy or similar), expect to run into the tire spike systems the cops use, and any
other equipment they routinely use. Gun-wise, they use shotguns, .338 Lapua rifles (not as powerful as .50, but serious, far
more power than 308 or 30-06!) or even .50, if there is an airport nearby. MP5 and other fast-firing 9mm weapons are most
likely the first layer you will encounter, though. Fire axes and sledge hammers, buckets of sand, etc. are all going to be quite
effective ways to slow or even stop the robot, especially indoors where a human is going to be able to dodge far better. Any
exposed target area is going to get hit first, too, so the shotgun barrel is going to get bashed.
I would also try jamming the signal on the robot by dialing out on my mobile phone, and throwing it near the robot. This would
degrade the signal quite a lot, and cause nasty things to happen in any sensitive bits.
Until recently, there wasn't a robot on Robot Wars that you couldn't have killed using a fire axe and some lower leg
protection.* They just weren't nearly powerful or fast enough, for a one-on-one. Don't forget, either, that the humans are very
unlikely to go for a stand-and-fight with some metal motherfucker with a shotgun, unless they are armed. In Terminator, they
shot at what they thought was human. If it had been the exo-skeleton, they wouldn't have wasted their ammo! (at least not
after the first few rounds bounced harmlessly away.)
*The only exception is Killalot, or perhaps that newer one. (This is if I don't expect it, of course!) You need heavy duty tracks,
IMO, as it is the only way you are going to get past a lot of obstacles that we just step over is by sheer power and big treads!
Those beasties weigh in at more than 250Kg, though, and I doubt they would like a 9mm round, let alone lots of them. I
doubt they would fit through most corridors or doorways, either.
Other notes: At my parents, your bot wouldn't stand a chance, as the JCB would just stomp it flat! Outdoors, your bot is going
to be easy to ram with a car, etc. and it is a pretty obvious target for tangling weapons, scaffolding poles, etc. Range would
also be a killer, as I feel sure I could hide from a home-brew killer robot until it ran out of fuel, even if I was butt-naked and
unarmed, in the middle of a field. Hell, on batteries, it would be about ten minutes! As long as I could make it to the first
ditch or hedge (which I could, as tracks are slow, and wheels wouldn't go) I would be fine, unless the webcam had a leet sniper
option on it. Even that wouldn't help it once I reached cover.
Anyway, I hope this post gets this rather interesting thread running again!
p.s. why is it in Chemistry? Surely it should be in >Engineering Discourse > Improvised Weapons ?
aliensniper December 1st, 2003, 07:03 PM

I'm not sure as to the availibility of it, but what about depleted Uranium for shield, etc?
The camera would need 360 degree view, so as to avoid the attack from behind scenario.
I was thinking, instead of chain saws and other extreme close range weapons, maybe a high caliber gattling/chain gun with
360 degree firing range would be better. Just have some (small) blades on the outside to prevent people from getting close.
Honestly, if I saw a gun, or a blade for that matter, I wouldn't bother playing hero and try to stop it.
Tuatara December 1st, 2003, 10:15 PM

You're all thinking too small! You want to nick a bulldozer from a construction yard and RC that. Even without added weapons
you could do a huge amount of damage. Doors are no longer a problem, nor curbs, stairs, potholes, axes, fireextinguishers,
civilians, cops. You'd need a truck to stop something like that.
For radio you want 2.45GHz spreadspectrum, flat patch antenna on the 'dozer, and a 20 element Yagi at the control end. At
2.45 GHz the Yagi will only be about a foot long.
We're not playing by the rules anymore. No weight limits, power limits, range limits, weapon limits.
Edit: of course, nicking a bulldozer presents its own set of challenges ....
aliensniper December 2nd, 2003, 01:05 AM

The only limit I could think of would be price.
I guess if you knew for a fact that you could get it back, then it wouldn't matter. But, you have to expect the worse, losing it,
and possibly losing the thousands you invested into it.
Unless, you build a smaller model to bail out the one the pigs captured ;)
Jacks Complete December 2nd, 2003, 08:07 AM

Nicking a bulldozer or JCB ain't that easy anymore!
In the UK it is now usual for the cab to be protected by a load of steel plate to prevent entry, as well as all the usual security.
It comes from too many cash machines getting stolen!
You would have to go well prepared. And then where are you going to keep it while you set it all up? You need a flatbed truck,
and a pretty big barn, or a hanger.
IMO, the best way would be to get something like one of the big JCB diggers, photo it, and start your designs. Then rent one,
or otherwise get access to one, and make sure your system is going to work. Now send it back. What you have now is a "quick
conversion kit of doom"!
Next step: wait till you know where the million dollar diamond, or whatever, is, and then the night before you break in to a few
places and kit out the JCBs. You now have (say) TEN of these things.
Obviously, this means that if one breaks down, it isn't an issue, you can't be caught with the goods unless you get caught in
the yard fitting it, there is no storage problem, etc.
If you got really clever, you could code them so that they could do simple flocking behaviour, like "Follow" or "Line abreast"
formations, which would be ideal for destroying small towns.
The armour plate in/over the cab would protect your drive system, too, as well as stopping anyone thinking they are radio
controlled. (They couldn't see in)
The level of complexity here is too high, though. You would need to either have a team of drivers, all with the skills required
(train on a simulator?) or some kind of low-level AI system so the nine tracks you weren't watching wouldn't just sit there
looking stupid. You would get caught when they triangulated the radio, too. I would use 2.4 as well as 3G mobile phones.
Odds are they would cut the phones as soon as they realised, but they would need to jam the 2.4 channels. Of course they
would probably chase down the transmiter at a rate of knots, but if it was a relay station, and another JCB, what would they
do? You hit a button, and your basic AI goes into "crush anything that moves" mode, you cut your other comms link (on
whatever frequency you were using that wasn't 2.4 or 3G mobile (which you wouldn't use anyway if it could be traced!) and
leave.
Also, how the heck would you profit from anything like this though? Only the insurance companies, the police and the builders
would. I have little doubt that this forum would be shut down and all the members arrested and kept out of sight for a few
years at least (Cuba in the summer is too hot for me!) and even if you were totally innocent, by the time you got out, all the
damage would have been repared, the police would have rocket launchers, and the civilians would have not even a BP rifle
between them. The home builders would all have made thier money and left, and the insurance companies would be sat in
Zurich rubbing thier hands gleefully at the massive insurance premiums they "had" to level in case anything like this
happened again...

I have some things to note, as my father owns not only a pool store, but a hobby shop.
1. Your going to want to go with Gas, unless you have time to change batteries after 15-25 minutes of running, with all that
automation involved, your going to want gas :)
2. Why not use a lexan top, on top of the metal body? Or just use lexan period....its clear :)
ronald December 12th, 2003, 12:30 PM
The germans had in WWII a small RC tank, which was stuffed with explosives and then driven under an enemy tank and then
exploded. It wasnt a very popular weapon, because the operators couldnt cover, because they had to guide that thing.
Anthony December 14th, 2003, 08:47 AM

You could go with electric drive and then an ICE/generator combo to keep the batteries topped up. If the ICE fails, you know
you have X about of run time in the batts to do something useful.
Why is the transparency of Polycarbonate an advantage? So people can see what to hit to disable your 'bot?
JC has raised some very good points though... :)
thrall December 14th, 2003, 05:29 PM

I tried to attech image but I couldn't.Anyway as we can see the trend in the war industry lately(and it's history as well) we see
one clear thing,For offence range and accuracy and for defence speed and number.I feel like revision of history.First there
were no armours,then massive armors means victory,then comes the Gun,again no armors because if you are hit you are
dead.
Same is true when you design a robot(of course,it depends on the task you want to do with it).For offence go for range and
accuracy but for defence go for speed and number.Don't go for armor(even if you make armor,make it very light,just to stop
being damaged by jerks and falling from stairs kind of scenarios).And yes make small robots and in big numbers(say send
10small in place of 1 big for instance ;) ).Since the cost wont be high for smallies you can afford to make big number of them
as well(mass production will reduse the cost even more:) ).
And when you make robot with tracks rather than wheels..And big tracks of rubber not of metal.In that case the robot will be
light and electric motors will be more than enough.And I cant see the point of recovering a robot.Hell! what do you think
piggies won't follow it?.But in this case when robot is small and the number is big,you can retrive some "object if you want to
without being tracked.
Yes and self destruct is obligatory :D.
Conclusion:Lots of small robots.Non recoverable,self destruct.If big guns or sharp shooting is needed you can always increase
the size by a bit to acconmaodate.
Jack's Complete: To get in your house I will not send a very big robot.I'll send 5-10 fedayeen:p robots.One will come hit your
door and the door and the first fedayeen vanished.Now there are say 4 more left so I can open 3 more door and still take
down my target.How did you like this?:cool: .
PS: Themachine I made was small but I couldn't attech the images.Anyway it was a machine which had four wheels that were
big enough that the entire machine remained inside of the wheels even when toppeled unsidedown.And yes,it could climb
stairs(wasn't remaote controled though).The improve ment is to cover it with a light armor of glassfiber-rasin hemispherical
shield.Noew this robot can not be compromised by toppleing since it will always be on the tracks.Plust the space in the
hemisphere will provide enough room for a GOOD self destruct:D to destry the machine as well as........ :p .

Why is the transparency of Polycarbonate an advantage? So people can see what to hit to disable your 'bot?
I didn't mean anything about the transparency of it, I was just noting it was clear.
Jacks Complete December 15th, 2003, 08:01 PM

thrall,
The problem you would have is that you couldn't drive all 5 robots at the same time! So you manage to get one to the door,
and frag the door. The next one has to track over and through all the wreckage, and you already started the clock! Police and
fire will be heading here, and I will be alerted too. In a small house like I am in now, you blow the door at the bottom of the
stairs, and your other three robots aren't going to have anything to climb!
Also, unlike most in this country, I both know how to shoot and can shoot. Even if you could stop what I threw at your bot, I
can still blind it with a paintball gun, or throw a blanket over it from above. Yes, you could have it shoot at me, but forewarned
is forearmed! Besides, a shotgun to the sensor head is going to mar the surface enough that your bot is blind, from 20 yards.
So you blow that one. The third bot has to come in from outside, and then it has to get over the rest of the door, and over the
crater left by #2. Assume the stairs were intact, it might get up them, it might not. By now I would have ears on, be kitted up,
and loaded for bear. Failing that, I would have gone out a window and be on the roof, or in the attic, which, even with the
ladder down, is going to stop your bot from mission success, since you would have to try to guess where I was, and just
blowing things up randomly would mean you ran out of bots fairly quickly.
Also, building 5 bots is going to be about 4 times more expensive than building one big one. Materials cost is lower, slightly,
but control systems are the expensive bit, and you suddenly need 5 rc sets, five times more cameras, motors, etc. It would
also require a lot more time!
I saw Terminator when I was a kid, and I know how I would have smashed that metal motherfucker into junk...
thrall December 16th, 2003, 01:58 AM

@Jack's Complete:I was thinking of causing chaos and panic rather that take somebody down.Well since you asked let me say
that If I just want to take YOU down with my robot(considering the setting that you've describe) I'll just let my fedayeen wait at
your door early in the morning and keep monitoring camera till YOU open the door(although knocking your door by fedayeen
will not be very bad I suppose,of course now that you know this you won't open the door but If you didn't then you would have
opened the door,right.Moreover I can hear all the sounds so eve if you don't open the door I can still know that somebody is
there right behind the door whenever he/she will approach the door).After that will be a simple story......;).
Yes thats what I meant by greater number + small size.The main function of the robot should be to explode right in front of
target rather that taking the target by some other means and COME BACK.What do you think? The police will not come if some
BIG robot rams in someones house and somehow compromises the target before he/she can call the pigs.The pigs shall be
called by someone else anyway.And breaking through the door I said, only in case the target is trying to hide in the doors.If
the target is not already aware of the attack then of course sneaking onto it will be the wisest move.
20 Yards,eh? Even a 4 kg. mine
(http://science.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=landmine.htm&url=http://www.angola.npaid.org/
minelist_all_database.htm)
has lethal radious of 25 meters.Thats what my different fedayeens will be for;).If want to destroy a gate send Fedayeen no.3
"Abdullah:)"
If want to cause mayham send fedayeen no.1 "Yaaseen".And so on.....
Yes,You are right it will be more expencive.But how much more(Spycam(transmitter + reciever,note that in one attack the
recievers still survives,yet I count that as gone):80$,control Simple on/off relays for manuvering(I never used any control for
speed,Just two relays 1 for left track and other for the right.Since I'm not mounting anything like flame trower or other exotic
devise so one on/off relay for self destruct.Plus two more for for triggering a gun(if mounted) and some other activity(if
added, See controling an arm or like that IS pointless anyway.
Cost 50$
(http://www.rentron.com/remote_control/RX-6_Combo.htm)
If I've mounted a gun(I won't mount a gun obviously) then I do need some better controls for aiming,but hey! robots for
aiming at close range is anyway impracticle(try to controle a robot and you will know),that means that my sharpshooter(not
fedayeen)(if I use it) will be far from the scene lurking in some corner and that will be recovered.
Sototal 80+50=130$ for controllers and camera,BTW thats not very high cost considering the fact that other material used will
not cost much(Even making a big one will cost a lot far as construction meterial of the body is concerned).
What do ta say? :cool:
Now that much for your house.The goal of making a robot is the only thing that desides it's design.Maybe for selective
assasination a big boy is better but then again there is problem of transportation.How will you take the robots to the vicinity of
target?Definately if a robot of the size of the order of car is moving on the road,somebody WILL take some action.That rules
out the possibility of leaving your macine faar fron the target and "driving" it to the target.For leaving the machine near the
target the problem remains same,How?As for the smallies,you can load them in the back of your car.Stop the car and just toss
them out.(they will always land on tracks:)).
Plus for other kind of operations(panic,mayham) these smallies will be the best there can be.Do I need to explain it?:cool:
EDIT:didn't want to post a new reply,but if you notice I've put the cost of camera as 80$ ans the cost of RF CONTROLER is 50$.

thrall,
I wasn't knocking your idea totally, just helping to debug it!
However, if I was going to do what you propose there, I would just use a Claymore-type mine in a bush! Use a PIR or tripwire if
the area is secure, or just a wireless tv camera and single channel door opener - 100-ish, plus the claymore.
Where are you getting a wireless camera for $50? That site charges $50 just for the four channel transmitter and latch, which is
about 30-40 in the UK. Wireless cameras cost about 60 upwards here.
To spread terror you need to terrorize. The best way to do that is to get the government to publicly state you are going to blow
something up, or poison something, or kill something, but they don't know where, when, who or how. Blowing up your robots
won't keep the mistique!
john_smith December 18th, 2003, 07:36 AM

Hehe! I have played a lot with the idea of building an RC plane with a full-auto .22 or two in my kewl days...though it was
more for simple vandalism than anything else.
A thought about the "Quick conversion kit of doom", many new cars have electric power steering now, as well as ABS, traction
control, automatic trannies etc., which means the car has all the servos already installed and the conversion kit could be totally
electronic and fit a load of different makes and models. Just plug in a few connectors and off you go. Very handy for
vaporizing checkpoints, or you could use the RC car for a decoy on getaway.

Why make it so hard?
Plastic garbage bags filled with anhydrous ammonia gas are held in a net to provide lift to a large bomb that is attached to a
cellular phone with a GPS. The cellie transmitts the bombs coordinates to the terr on the other end who, when the bomb is
located over a suitable target area, sends the DTMF tone that releases the bomb.
The bomb falls and explodes at a thousand feet over the target, raining either bomblets or NBC upon the targets heads, all
with no defense. :)
Less than a thousand dollars TOTAL. :D
If you wanted precision, have a TV camera built into it and have the controller following the ballon in a vehicle so he can guide
it like a smart-bomb right into the target.
Start upwind of D.C. and the politicos will have to cower in bunkers to be safe. Cities are helpless prey. >)
If the japs could do it with ballons launched from japan using simple clockwork timers...
You could use a large truck to carry a large amount of liquid explosive to the target (presumably a secured building) with a R/
C ATV with a bladder and hose reel connected to the liquid explosive drum to circumvent the security provided by standoffs.
The truck drives up as close as possible before the ATV rolls off the back and smashes into the building, unreeling the hose
behind it.
The ATV is spraying tear gas and smoke the whole way so no one can get near enough to cut the hose.
Once inside the building, the bladder is unfolded and the pumps in the truck transfer the LEX into it. Once full....BOOM!
Because the explosion will be taking place inside of the target, rather than from outside, the damage will be greatly
magnified, using much less than would be possible with an exerior charge. :)
The operator could be inside the truck, since the explosion would be smothered by the collapsing building, assuming he's not
ten yards from it at the time.
Jacks Complete January 29th, 2005, 09:01 AM

What the military in the UK and USA have come up with:
----
Gun-slinging robot headed for Iraq combat</a> - [Technology] Submitted by <a href="mailto:seraph1m@ircspy.com">seraphim</a> on 1/25/2005 9:21:12 AM <img src="http://
images.ircspy.com/comments.gif" border="0" height="11" width="22"> <a href="comments.asp?
mode=view&id=2441">17 Comments</a> <blockquote>
The rain is turning to snow on a blustery January morning, and all the
men gathered in a parking lot here surely would prefer to be inside.
But the weather couldn't matter less to the robotic sharpshooter they
are here to watch as it splashes through puddles, the barrel of its
machine gun pointing the way.
The Army is preparing to send 18 of these remote-controlled robotic
warriors to fight in Iraq beginning in March or April. Made by a small
Massachusetts company, the SWORDS, short for Special Weapons
Observation Reconnaissance Detection Systems, will be the first armed
robotic vehicles to see combat.

<img src="http://springfield.news-leader.com/business/today/0123-Gunslingin_2.jpg"> <img src="http://springfield.news-
leader.com/business/today/0123-Gunslingin_1.jpg">
It's easy to humanize the SWORDS as it moves out of an office
building and into the cold with nary a shiver. Military officials like
to compare the roughly three-foot-high robots favorably to human
soldiers: They don't need to be trained, fed or clothed. They can be
boxed up and warehoused between wars. They never complain. And there
are no letters to write home if they meet their demise in battle.
But officials are quick to point out that these are not the
autonomous killer robots of science fiction. A SWORDS robot shoots only
when its human operator presses a button after identifying a target on
video shot by the robot's cameras. "The only difference is that his
weapon is not at his shoulder, it's up to half a mile a way," said Bob
Quinn, general manager of Talon robots for Foster-Miller Inc., the
Waltham, Mass., company that makes the SWORDS.
Quinn said it was a "bootstrap development process" to convert
a Talon robot, which has been in military service since 2000, from its
main mission defu sing roads ide bo mbs in Iraq into the gu n-slinging
SWORDS. It was a joint development process between the Army and
Foster-Miller, a robotics firm bought in November by QinetiQ Group PLC.
Army officials and employees of the robotics firm heard from
soldiers "who said 'My brothers are being killed out here. We love the
EOD (explosive ordnance disposal), but let's put some weapons on it,'"
said Quinn. Working with soldiers and engineers at Picatinny Arsenal in
New Jersey, it took just six months and only about $2 million in
development money to outfit a Talon with weapons, according to Quinn
and Anthony Sebasto, a technology manager at Picatinny.
The Talon had already proven itself to be pretty rugged. One
was blown off the roof of a Humvee and into a nearby river by a
roadside bomb in Iraq. Soldiers simply opened its shrapnel-pocked
control unit and drove the robot out of the river, according to Quinn.
The $200,000, armed version will carry standard-issue Squad Automatic
Weapons. All its optics equipment the four cameras, night vision and
z o o m l e n s e s were already in the Arm y's inventory.
"It's important to stress that not everything has to be super
high tech," said Sebasto. "You can integrate existing componentry and
create a revolutionary capability." The SWORDS' developers say its
tracks, like those on a tank, can overcome rock piles and barbed wire,
though it needs a ride to travel faster than 4 mph.
Running on lithium ion batteries, it can operate for 1 to 4
hours at a time, depending on the mission. Operators work the robot
using a 30-pound control unit which has two joysticks, a handful of
buttons and a video screen. Quinn says that may eventually be replaced
by a "Gameboy" type of controller hooked up to virtual reality goggles.
The Army has been testing it over the past year at Picatinny and the
Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland to ensure it won't malfunction and
can stand up to radio jammers and other countermeasures.
Its developers say the SWORDS not only allows its operators to
fire at enemies without exposing themselves to return fire, but also
can make them more accurate. A typical soldier who could hit a target
the size of a basketball from 300 meters away could hit a target the
size of a nickel with the SWORDS, according Quinn.
The better accuracy stems largely from the fact that its gun is
mounted on a stable platform and fired electronically, rather than by a
soldier's hands, according to Staff Sgt. Santiago Tordillosi of the EOD
Technology Directorate at Picatinny. Gone are such issues as trigger
recoil, anticipation problems, and pausing the breathing cycle while
aiming a weapon.

"It eliminates the majority of shooting errors you would have," said Tordillosi.

source: <a href="http://springfield.news-leader.com/business/today/0123-Gunslingin-285627.html">news leader</a>
----
Silentnite January 29th, 2005, 03:43 PM

So now comes the video game training for the army. Or instead of the ASVAB test, they put you in a room with an XBOX and
XBOX live and see how many frags you get with HALO2. :cool:
Any chance one of them will get struck by lightning and turn into Jonny 5? :p
Self-sustaining killer robot creates a stink
Microbial fuel cells digest flies to generate electricity
It may eat flies and stink to high heaven, but if this robot works, it will be an important step towards making robots fully
autonomous.
To survive without human help, a robot needs to be able to generate its own energy. So Chris Melhuish and his team of
robotics experts at the University of the West of England in Bristol are developing a robot that catches flies and digests them
in a special reactor cell that generates electricity.
So what is the downside? The robot will most likely have to attract the hapless flies by using a stinking lure concocted from
human excrement.
Called EcoBot II, the robot is part of a drive to make "release and forget" robots that can be sent into dangerous or
inhospitable areas to carry out remote industrial or military monitoring of, say, temperature or toxic gas concentrations.
Sensors on the robot feed a data logger that periodically radios the results back to a base station.
Exoskeleton electricity
The robot's energy source is the sugar in the polysaccharide called chitin that makes up a fly's exoskeleton. EcoBot II digests
the flies in an array of eight microbial fuel cells (MFCs), which use bacteria from sewage to break down the sugars, releasing
electrons that drive an electric current (see graphic).
In its present form, EcoBot II still has to be manually fed fistfuls of dead bluebottles, but the ultimate aim of the UWE robotics
team is to make the droid predatory, using sewage as a bait to catch the flies.
"One of the great things about flies is that you can get them to come to you," says Melhuish. The team has yet to tackle this,
but speculates that it would involve using a bottleneck-style flytrap with some form of pump to suck the flies into the digestion
chambers.
With a top speed of 10 centimetres per hour, EcoBot II's roving prowess is still modest to say the least. "Every 12 minutes it
gets enough energy to take a step forwards two centimetres and send a transmission back," says Melhuish.
But it does not need to catch too many flies to do so, says team member Ioannis Ieropoulos. In tests, EcoBot II travelled for
five days on just eight fat flies - one in each MFC.
Donated sewage
So how do flies get turned into electricity? Each MFC comprises an anaerobic chamber filled with raw sewage slurry - donated by
UWE's local utility, Wessex Water. The flies become food for the bacteria that thrive in the slurry.
Enzymes produced by the bacteria break down the chitin to release sugar molecules. These are then absorbed and
metabolised by the bacteria. In the process, the bacteria release electrons that are harnessed to create an electric current.
Previous efforts to use carnivorous MFCs to drive a robot included an abortive UWE effort: the Slugbot. This was designed to
hunt slugs on farms by using imaging systems to spot and grab the pests, and then deliver them to a digester that produces
methane to power a fuel cell.
The electricity generated would have been used to charge the Slugbot when it arrived at a docking station. But the methane-
based system took too long to produce power, and the team realised that MFCs offered far more promise.
Elsewhere, researchers in Florida created a train-like robot dubbed Chew Chew (New Scientist print edition, 22 July 2000) that
used MFCs to charge a battery, but the bacteria had to be fed on sugar cubes.
For an autonomous robot to survive in the wild, relying on such refined foodstuffs is not an option, says Melhuish. EcoBot II,
on the other hand, is the first robot to use unrefined fuel. Just do not stand downwind.
Taken from (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6366)
And I had an idea, what about taking a RC Plane and outfitting it with little bomblets? Have some HE attached to the
undercarriage via AP-attched glue or something, and when you have the plane over your target, you can hit a button and have
it explode the small AP charge dropping the HE bomblet. And the plus side is, I've seen RC planes outfitted with wireless pen
camera's. Make your own UMV. :D
DirtyDan January 29th, 2005, 06:04 PM

I too have been working on something similar to this, although it is not meant to be malicious (yet). I am simply combining a
webcam, wireless ethernet card with antennae, a very old laptop running linux, and two 18v drill motors to make my car. The
plan was to first wardrive around with a GPS and find a clear and long path I could run the bot along. Then I would let it go and
guide it via internet (the laptop would function as a webserver :) ) around town and see how well it survived. With a 5db
antannae, I could actually make it a long ways. With the GPS hooked up to the laptop itself, I could even programm the thing
to set waypoints and drive over to a friends house for him to charge it up. The other thought was to add on a pnuematic
cannon for fun, but thats just a thought.
I know its dumb, but after wardriving a while I really have quite a few possibilities. If I lost connection and had a GPS on
board, it could easily be programmed to drive off to its next destination and get back online. Only 25% of the access points I
stumbled had WEP on, so that would not be a problem either. And without the screen running, the laptop stays on for a long
time. It will be interesting, right now im fighting with driver issues and hardware on an old Pentium I.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > underground bunker
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Ctrl_C March 28th, 2002, 06:28 PM

I have what could double as an underground bunker. back in the early 1900's the house that was on this property received
water from an underground reinforced concrete reserivoir filled by a well using a windmill to pump the water up. When electricity
made it back this way, the windmill was abandoned and an electric motor was installed.
The important thing is the concrete reservoir. It is about 20x15x15. The well right next to it is non operational but still has
water...I dropped a rock and heard it splash. It must be 2-300 feet deep. If one were to go in and clean out the bricks and
braches and stuff that have fallen in over the past 75 years and suck out the couple inches of water down there, it could make
a reasonably good bunker.
I think the walls may have to be reinforced but all this would take is a concrete drill and some basement wall anchors. I think
the concrete is held together resonably well but I would put up some length of chain link fence anchored to the walls and
plywood on top of that.
A generator with intake/exhaust pipes to the surface could be placed inside to run a well pump, lights, etc.
I can't quite seem to justify doing this though. Sure a bunker would be nice if the world went to hell all of the sudden, but
there is no immediate use for it. So...should I build it "just in case"? You have to admit it would be pretty awesome to own a
fully operational self-sustaining underground bunker.
kingspaz March 28th, 2002, 07:01 PM

go for it!
even if you never used it. it would be very interesting to attempt and strengthen. it may be make a cool lab if its got electricity
in there. get some lights up, a work bench, etc. but it would be worth doing just so you can say you have a bunker afterwards.
also the guy in the UK who owns the old bunker for the government from the 70's sold places for 30 000 a person after
september 11th. next time theres another terrorist attack, or china is flexing its muscles you could cash in if you put another
couple of beds in there! :D
xoo1246 March 28th, 2002, 07:02 PM

Oh yes, we antisocial creatures like to hide in caves. No really, it's cool, you could set up a underground labb or something like
that.
If you have a camera, take some pictures of it.
Energy84 March 28th, 2002, 08:18 PM

First thing I thought of when you mentioned "underground bunker" was of a drug bust that happened near my place last fall.
Some guys had 7 railway cars buried side by side and were growing marijuana down there for about 5 years. They were
completely self sustained. They had running water, a toilet, kitchen and even cable TV!. The electricity was provided by two
diesel generators (one was just for backup). I know that some guy was hired to tend to the needs of the plants and he stayed
down there for 5 months straight!
I'd love to have my own bunker, but I'd probably use it to grow weed and make $$$ off of lesser scum :D

i did some actual measurements and went down it it a few hours ago. its about 16 feet deep, and 10x10. much smaller than I
first estimated but big enough. The concrete is in remarkable shape. not even cracking...the skim coat is still intact. I take
back my statement about needing wall anchors. Here's a rough diagram of what it's like.
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-

family: monospace;"> |<2ft> |
------------| |---------
| |
__________| |_________
| |
| |
| |
|<----------10ft---------->|
| |
| ^ |
| | 16ft |
| |
|__________________________|</pre><hr /></blockquote>I am going to clear a
path, then take the oxyacetylene torch up there and cut off the piston head to the well and cut up the windmill tower that is
still up there. Next step will be clearing out about 50 bricks, some trash, and some sticks and branches from the bottom.
Then, if the shopvac will fit through the top, I will take it down and suck out the 2" of water and 1" of dirt and muck.
Anthony March 28th, 2002, 08:27 PM

I'd definitely do it, it'd be a great self sufficiency project. With a generator and/or battery bank + inverter you could have
power no matter what was going on in the world outside. Or go solar/wind power if you're so inclined.
It could also make a great lab, if something were to go badly wrong, no one would probably realise it, except for feeling a
"tremor".
It'd also be a cool place to hang out, no one is going to bother you down there. You could have a (cramped) drunken party
and play music at ear bleeding levels at till the morning without neighbours complaining.
Personally, I'd equip the place with electricity, sort out a water tank for running water. Get a TV/fridge/stove/computer/sofabed
down there and go live in it:)

Live in a 10x10 box? Kaczynski (sp?) did that only his wasn't underground. I dont know what I will do with it yet. And I can play
music at ear bleeding levels at 3:00am anyway...my nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away.
I do like the idea of burying cargo boxes underground all welded together and everything. Maybe one day...
mark March 28th, 2002, 09:09 PM

You could have your own private bat cave...Do you have a butler?

Point retracted, my neighbours are 1/2ft away...
But definitely forget all other suggestions made, it *has* to be a bat cave!
mrloud March 28th, 2002, 09:43 PM

I was about to suggest that before you go down there, make sure the air is breathable down there. The number of people who
climb into a confined space and drop dead because there is not enough oxygen each year is staggering. If you're going to be
conducting experiments down there you'll need to put some thought into how you are going to stop it from filling up with
flammable or poisonous gas.
It would be cool to use it as a secure server room for the FTP site. Run some cat5 out there with the power. You might even
want to use it as a chemical store. It sounds like the ideal place to keep anything you would want to self destruct in the event
of a raid by the cops. A couple of oxygen cylinders, a hundred litres of petrol and some strategically placed thermite and
things could get nice and toasty down there.
EP March 28th, 2002, 10:20 PM

Using it as a contained lab sounds like the best idea to me, especially with any accidents or evidence disposal (destroying lab
in emergency) not risking a house or something.

i just went down there for an hour and cleaned some shit up. its very wet, dark, dirty, damp, etc...not unlike working in a sewer
i'm sure. theres all kinds of broken glass and nasty stuff down there too. i pulled out most of the bricks which was a pain in
the ass because I could only lift 5 or so in a 5 gallon bucket at one time. next is some pretty large branches then i'll take a
coal shovel down and get most of the muck out.
does anybody have any suggestions on how to suck all that water out of there? the shop vac won't fit and I don't think it pulls
a high enough vacuum to suck it up 16 feet. the water isn't deep enough for any kind of submersible pump, it needs to be
sucked.
also I was thinking about what kind of "umbilical" I will need going down there. I'm thinking water, power, phone, 2 way
ventilation (dryer vent tubing or pvc?), intake/exhaust ventilation for possible future generator...what else? A drain for taking a
leak might be possible because there is a pipe at the bottom that used to supply the house from the reservoir.
mrloud March 29th, 2002, 12:11 AM

Is it 16ft from the floor to the ceiling or the surface? If the room itself is 16 ft high (just over 5m) you could almost build a
decking half way up and make it a two storey bunker. At the very least you'll need to build a false floor a foot or so up off the
ground with a bilge pump at the lowest point.
How far between the ceiling of the bunker and the surface?
How strong is it? Would you want to drive a car over the top?
You could build a shed or small cabin over the entrance. Anyone watching would only see you go into a shed, not down
underground.
Ctrl_C March 29th, 2002, 12:37 AM

its 16 feet from floor to surface. the ceiling is probably 2-3 feet from the surface. I would guess it is pretty strong...it is
reinforced. I would drive a car over it.
PYRO500 March 29th, 2002, 01:39 AM

I had the idea of digging a long trench and building a wooden frame I once tried to dig a small tunnel, but the soil around
here isn't stable so my initial hole caved in stopping that idea, I figured if I really wanted a bunker I would need a backhoe
and work quickly, something I did not have the money to do. The dimensions of that are almost the size of my septic tank, I
would not recomend a chem lab down there as the fumes would fog the area and with a damp area with water vapor in the air
would make the fumes hang like a fog in the place choking you, a rain cover is a must along with a ventilator fan/shaft. As for
the well is it a currently used well? if not you could drop large IED's in there or toxic chems/biproducts nuclear waste etc. :) just
stay away from the edge, one slip will be your last.
BoB- March 29th, 2002, 04:24 AM

Dude, an air pump is crucial, if the oxygen level gets a little too low/high, you can adjust it with the flick of a switch. You could
also have a second one as a backup, but airpumps are already expensive.
A carbon monoxide detector is also important.
How the hell did the people who buried these train cars not get caught? thats a lot of earth to move.
nbk2000 March 29th, 2002, 06:48 AM

I wouldn't want to be working in a concrete bunker with explosives. Any accidental explosion will be greatly magnified by the
confinement. What would have been survivable becomes sure death. Plus the lack of oxygen and the fumes, fire, etc. :(
But it would make a really great place to explode your stuff without worries. No smoke, noise, flash to give you away. And
since it's completely enclosed, you could do weapons tests and retrieve the fragments with no problems.

I finished cleaning it. I couldn't believe that shop-vac could pull water 16 feet but it did. I also dislike the idea of a lab down
there. I've detonated things down there before and the echo amplifies the sound tenfold. I would almost certainly go deaf, if
not die if an accident happened. Here's some pics.
<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_surface2.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_surface2.jpg" target="_blank">Surface 1</a>
<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_surface1.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_surface2.jpg" target="_blank">Surface 2</a>
<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_houserelation.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_houserelation.jpg" target="_blank">Proximity to
House</a>
<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_inside1.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_inside1.jpg" target="_blank">Inside 1</a>
<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_inside2.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_inside2.jpg" target="_blank">Inside 2</a>
<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_insidelookingup.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_insidelookingup.jpg" target="_blank">Inside
Looking Up</a>
<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_insidelookingout.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_insidelookingout.jpg" target="_blank">Inside
Looking Out</a>
On the subject of a battery bank, my dad's truck has 2 1000ah batteries. How many amps could they really put out for an hour
without overheating? How many would I need to put out say, 3500watts?
kingspaz March 29th, 2002, 07:23 PM

wow! that is in good condition!
i think the idea of an underground test site is good. you could set off some big charges down there.
xoo1246 March 29th, 2002, 09:42 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />On the subject of a battery bank, my dad's truck has 2 1000ah batteries. How many amps could they really put out
for an hour without overheating? How many would I need to put out say, 3500watts?<hr /></blockquote>That depends on their inner resistance and the voltage.
It's a nice little hole you got there. You could hide their when nukes start falling from the sky. <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
[ March 29, 2002, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
Mick March 29th, 2002, 10:39 PM

that is so cool, i would love to have something like that.
well, i do have something like that sort of. i found a mine shaft of sorts near a bridge once, i think it was an old sandstone
mine for the bridge, and it was really fucken deep - i dropped a big rock in it and it took about 7-8 seconds to hit water at the
bottom.
i took my absailing gear back to it a few weeks later, but i could never find the bloody thing again, and i've been there several
times after that and i still can't find it.
and to my knowledge noone knows about it, i asked the council and a few other conservation groups in that area but niether
of them knew about it. and i asked a few old people from the area that seemed to know everything else about the town but
they knew nothing about it either - one of them thought that the sandstone for the bridge was carted from a near by town, so
that adds question to whether its a mine or not.
anyways, have fun with your hole.

you could always get a whole bunch of worms and put them in there, then use the hole for a dead body pit.

Jeez, what does your dad use those batts for? They must weigh about half a tonne together...
I'd say you could pull 3.5Kw from them absolutely no problem.
Capacity, assumbing they are brand new, it would depend what length of time the discharge was carried out over to determine
their rated capacity. Many lead/acid batteries batteries use a 20hour rate, so for a 1000ah battery, it could give 50A
continuously for 20hrs. However, the shorter the time period over which the battery is discharged, the less efficient it is. I'd
guess that discharging over a period of 1hr might give you 80% of rated capacity, but it's just a guesstimate.
The age/condition of the batteries also has a big effect on the true capacity they will have.
NoltaiR March 30th, 2002, 03:40 PM

Hmmm.. what I would do with a underground testing site like that?
Probably make a fairly large claymore mine and set it just about anywhere... then have little homemade dummies/manakins
standing around in there randomly. Then have a small video camera with livefeed (so you can see what is happening as it
happens, and if somethings went wrong with the camera on the inside, you would still have it recorded on the client (whatever
device you would use to monitor the explosion). Then detonate it and record the effects. Then replay in slow motion and watch
how the nails and BBs bounce off the walls and tear the dummies to pieces.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />

I somehow don't think that would work Noltair. You'd need lighting which wouldn't break right away and a highspeed camera for
that, hence $$$ and lots of it :(
Cool hole, I probably wouldn't use it for blast testing though. That'd obviously ruin it. What'd I'd try doing instead is looking
around to see if it'd be possible to blast a small hole in the side of it, then digging it out, giving you an even bigger area/
second room. You could use this second room as a sort of reservoir with all your pumps and generators in it to save space in
your primary room.
Bob- those railcars must have been there for 30+ years because there were trees on top that were up to 5" in diameter. I'll try
to find some old newspaper clippings showing the entrance. It really was an awesome place and I hope they don't fill it in
:mad: The pigs were talking about doing that...
RTC March 30th, 2002, 04:46 PM

Aherm.. how much is a rail car old chap? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Got me a few idea's.
YTS March 30th, 2002, 06:26 PM

I think every man would like a underground bunker every bloke i no does ive dreamt about building one many a time . I could
think of many uses main one to get a way from the missis
mark March 30th, 2002, 10:12 PM

quote
you could always get a whole bunch of worms and put them in there, then use the hole for a dead body pit.
Just when I was beginig to not be scared of you guys......
shooter3 March 30th, 2002, 11:32 PM

That's really interesting. I'm from Rhode Island and have seen lots of those around. I know of three in Bristol. One was 15
feet in diameter and 15 feet deep, but it was a cylinder. The second was mostly filled in, but was about 10 feet wide(also a
cylinder. The third was the most interesting. I was remodeling a bathroom in an old house and found it under the floor. It had
been covered for at least 90 years. It was about 8 feet in diameter and about 20 feet deep. Shaped just like a thermos bottle.
The access was a 2 foot hole. What could you use that for? An indoor test chamber? The wall was as smooth as a trowled floor.
The owner wanted to fill it in, but I talked him out of it. Maybe it could be turned into a 2 story bomb shelter/storage cave.
(sorry I'm getting parranoid again).
RTC March 30th, 2002, 11:40 PM

I'd for sure, either by hammer&chisle, explosives, jackhammer, take out a lower section of the wall, take it down about 20feet,
using the spoil to built up a mud wall, around the entrance with sandbags or something.
Then get a few friends round with some shovel's, and start digging, dig the room out to around 30x40 feet (wouldn't take a
montivated person that long) then get some wooden crates, stack them against the walls, then put nail some fiber board over
the pallets and fill with concreate, the take off fiber board after it's dryed, and put another skim on it.
do same again with ceiling, propping it up with some scaffold if you can get it.
Once dry, yet again, put another skim over it, if you were thinking about expansion, you would have left a 6x2foot gap for a
doorway, and taken it down yet another 20foot before making yet another room.
Given time, you could virtually build your own underground city.
Would be a nice retreat for those would be killers on the run, paying you a nice sum for somewhere to hide till there "heat" is
off.
Selection for this would however be of the most upright select people. For example, people with a good reputation, after all
you don't want to be taking in any old riff raff just as they have the money, they could be bacon!
Got to remember your RTPB here! You could even use it as a "underground training station" teaching things from weapons
handeling, escape and evasion, hand to hand combat, explosives and demolitions, special weapons and tatics, survival tactics.
Of course you'd need to be pretty well funded if you want to set this up in the course of a few years, however if your in no rush
and want it as some kind of "project" you could take as long as you wish, using second hand power supply's, free if you can
beg/steal/borrow them.
NoltaiR March 31st, 2002, 12:54 AM

Yeah I was just kidding about the claymore idea (although it would be interesting if it could work)..hehe
Anyways it would certainly make headlines if one day a small, highly trained group of soldiers who were trained privately in an
old, abandoned well..
RTC March 31st, 2002, 01:31 AM

".. And on tonights news at 10, a highly trained terrorist group, who are causing havok to anyone with authority, using highly
advanced improvised weapons, spraypainting NBK LIVES! where ever they go.."
oh if only.. We all know who our leader would be!
Energy84 March 31st, 2002, 01:39 AM

:cool: I think I know where I could get you an old boxcar for around a grand or so... That'd work out to around $680USD
I don't know how you'd move the damn thing though since it isn't on rails anymore and it's sitting in a scrapyard.
Anthony March 31st, 2002, 11:59 AM

Depends how long they are, if it isn't much over 40ft then a truck with an open bed trailer might work. There must be a way
otherwise they wouldn't have gotten to the scrapyard in the first place (unless it has a rail link).
Ctrl_C March 31st, 2002, 04:19 PM

Excavating in bigger would be possible, but very dangerous, very hard to be covert, and too much work for me.
The batteries I mentioned are actually 750 cold cranking amps, much less than I anticipated. Cold cranking amps is
maximum amperage over a very short time no? I will look up some more specifics on the model in a little bit and post them
here.
Heres a pic of the truck (and my spudgun) these things go in, now you know why they are so huge...that truck is 7.3L.
<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/spudgun.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/spudgun.jpg" target="_blank">Truck</a>
Anthony March 31st, 2002, 04:56 PM

"The cold cranking ampere (CCA) rating refers to the number of amperes a battery can support for 30 seconds at a
temperature of 0F until the battery voltage drops to 1.20 volts per cell, or 7.20 volts for a 12V battery."
7.3L - meaty:)
PYRO500 March 31st, 2002, 10:07 PM

I would not recomend any blasting in your underground room it is unneccisary to remove the concrete from the wall and could
cause damage to the structureof the existing tank, using explosives on an old concrete structure may cause cracking or
internal weakening or tiny stress fractures that could cause it to collapse anywhere from immediately to years from then, you
didn't post how thick the walls are so we can't estimate the amount of weight that wall is supporting, I think that the structure
is way too shallow to dig a tunnel, I recall that 3 feet was usually the minimum to avoid loose top soil from caving in. It would
be possible to dig out a trench along the side and carefully knock out a segment of the wall removing the concrete you did npt
need, then you could make walls and floor out of cement blocks or something and add a strong cieling then rebury the trench
with the tunnel/extra room attached to the side. that is the safest way to do it blasting in this 100 year old box is not a good
idea, if you must do it at least cover the wall with sandbags or something to ensure the blast goes in one direction and don't
drill blasting holes, this may seem like a good idea but it will cause shock to the cieling all along that wall and besides you will
need a fairly large (well more than is considered safe) amount of a good brissant explosive that may have to sit in the wall for
quite a while till you get the sandbags in.
Ctrl_C April 1st, 2002, 02:44 PM

I have made my decision and will not use it for a lab or blasting tank for a couple reasons. A lab down there would be
dangerous. As nbk said, something that could be survivable elsewhere, would be fatal down there. I also don't want to use it
as a blast tank for a few reasons. Yes, it probably would destroy it over time. Also, I live in the middle of like 300 acres with
only 2 houses within earshot, I can blow up truck bombs and nobody would know.
I am, however, going to put in ventilation, electricity, possibly a battery bank, several hundred gallons of fresh water, a cot,
some elevated flooring, maybe some drywall or plywood on the walls and ceiling, a new permanent aluminum ladder, some
sort of door and/or covering over the entrance, etc, etc...
I think the first step is going to be putting in 2x4 framing on the inside to screw plywood onto, and the floor would go in at the
same time.
nbk2000 April 2nd, 2002, 01:36 AM

Now that I've FINALLY been able to see the pictures, I'd suggest getting rid of the above ground portion of the entrance and
camofluaging it somehow. Perhaps a big, fake, styrofoam rock? Otherwise, it's an invitation to anyone who sees it to look in it.
You could explode small, grenade sized, charges in it with no damage. Just suspend them or set on a sand bag.
Another use, though perhaps not your style, would be as a slave pit. This thing just screams "Slave Pit" to me. Keep your
captive cuties in a deep underground pit with no way out. Just like the movies "Kiss the Girls" and "Silence of the Lambs". :p
Glad to hear you're not going to use it as a lab. Between a fire, injuries, and having to climb out, you wouldn't stand a chance
in hell of escaping alive.
Mick April 2nd, 2002, 02:27 AM

i was going to say the same thing NBK (silence of the lambs)
however, i figured it would sound a touch wierd.
mmmm slave pit :D
also, ctrl_c it would be a good idea to drill either the ceiling or the walls(or both) to see how thick they are.
because the well has been closed up so long i would imagine that the concrete would have absorbed alot of moisture, and now
that its open it will dry out.
if theres any chance of it cracking and failing apart it will happen when the walls dry out.
[ April 02, 2002, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: Mick ]
Jack Ruby April 2nd, 2002, 02:38 AM

*Sigh*
Nothing gets me hotter than know that my sex slaves are kept secure in a dank pit. They are living in their own filth.
The last think I would want to find out is that Leperacy is a STD :( .
It would deffinitely be important to conceal it. And keep in mind that a flashbang/frag grenade would be very easy ways of
killing the occupant of that Dank Pit.
Also history show us that the DEA, FBI, and other 3 letter Goverment agencies aren't above and beyond burning you alive and
making sure you can't escape.
*Cough*Branch*Cough*Davidians*Cough*
nbk2000 April 2nd, 2002, 03:31 AM

Hey, they get a bucket. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
It'd be a great place for storing all your chemicals and other goodies. No need to worry about that 5 kilo jug of unstable AP
exploding in the house. :D
Any leaks, explodes, or burns, it does it in an underground concrete room hundreds of feet from your home. Very safe.
With a decent ventilation system, it'd be a great gas chamber for experiments with CW agents. Lower the animals into the pit
in a cage, introduce the agent, wait till they're dead, then vent.
YOU definately don't want to be in there if/when the JBTs come knocking on your door. Death trap.
the flash August 18th, 2005, 01:28 PM

Some of the descriptions of the 'underground rooms' that were cylinders 15 feet deep and more sound like indoor wells. I
think they were common before municipal water systems.
Zajcek July 1st, 2006, 10:51 AM

We had a wooden house built in bushes about 100 meters away from police station and they didn't have a clue that the thing
existed. :)
My friends grew weed inside it. We used a huge locomotive lead+acid battery for our power supply we "borrowed" at the train
station. It weighted at least 100 kg and lasted for almost a month. Then we had to "borrow" a new one.
We were using that place when the weather was bad. For smoking weed and for drinking.
Unfortunately it was found by a fire brigade when they were cutting down all the trees and bushes in that area to start building
a new gas station. And piggies were surprised they didn't knew about it. It was like in front of their noses :D They even found
that locomotive batteries they were looking for.
I say GO FOR IT! Install an air supply fan, so it will get all the exhaled CO2 out of that bunker. It could be used to help you
get rid of some other nasty fumes if you will have a lab down there.
It is nice to have a shelter you can go to when you are in a bad mood or you are in trouble and don't want anyone to find you.
Just be careful if you will do experiments down there. It is a death trap if it is filled win NOx gasses or CO2 ( guess what can
you use it for )
Jacks Complete July 3rd, 2006, 09:35 PM

(This is a old, old thread!)
I've got to say the idea of a vertical shaft like that really doesn't do it for me. As has been pointed out about ten times, it's a
death trap. You couldn't really even keep slaves in there, as without a ventilator they are going to die from CO2 poisoning!
I'd go with digging a shaft down at a good angle for walking or clambering down, then use a jackhammer to get through the
wall. Then simply concrete over it again, so you have a nice smooth transition from the old part to the new part.
I'd also go for a design that has a sand covered floor and a grenade sump, if you were entertaining the idea of a chemical or
bomb testing area. Both would probably save your life a few times before you stopped using it.
Thinking about the best way to go about building a small bunker, I think the best way would be to find a small cleared area on
a hillside or slope, and dig a trench to the size of the area you want for your starter. Build a sort of bunded area from brick, to
produce a level area on top. Now, mark out a wall inside this, bounded by one wall on the hill side. Cover the top of this with
slabs, and ensure it is very, very solid. To allow expansion into the hill, leave a hole in the hillside wall, and use a lintel or
even two for support. Get some rebar, chop out your hole for where the door will be and drop it over the top, then fill it with
cement, and then build a shed on top of it.
After the concrete has set and the shed built, cut a hole through the base of the shed, and you will then be able to cut away
the concrete, allowing access to your new bunker, underneath. If you are prepared to hire the mixer and fill it yourself, you
could easily use a box section to install a manhole cover or the like, rather than having to allay suspicion by having the hole
filled like normal.
The joy of this design is that you can make those side walls as thick as you like, and then tunnel into the hill via the wall you
left the tunnel to.
Crap description, but you probably got the idea already. Instead of having a big concrete bunker entrance on the side of a hill,
you have a big concrete slab with a shed on top on the side of a hill.
209 July 3rd, 2007, 01:59 AM

Hold on......
I have been intrested in making a bunker for some time myself. The only area I would be able to build it in would be in a
heavily wooded forest were all the tools and materials would have to be hauled in by hand. The soil is damp, soft and full of
roots. To top it all off, the ground isn't very level.
Lost cause?
I think you did a square pit as deep as you want. Use cement blocks and cement to build the walls and floor. Then what about
a roof? It would have to be cement as well, but how? I guess you build the roof and then cover it with a few feet of dirt and
replace all the growth and fallen trees, perfect camo :). Then you build build a wooden floor on wooden stilts above the
cement floor, all the water goes into this "bilge" and can be pumped out as needed. Then the access can be made from the
side, not the top, a short flight of stairs rather than a ladder. How do you put on a roof?
festergrump July 3rd, 2007, 04:51 AM

Hold on?! LOL! I think they've BEEN holding on for 364 days, my friend! ;) :p
The very first thing to have a peek at when considering what location you're going to dig at is your water table. Just how deep
can you dig before you start filling in again with mud and muck? Granted, it's still possible to build something useful below this
level, but you just got really expensive and will need alot of help, professional advice, and possibly machinery. Very bad for a
'secret' spot.
Depending on the size of the roof you are talking about, though, there are many different ways of doing it.
Concrete would probably be best poured into a mould with rebar running through it as a grid, then craned into place.
I'd probably go with a corrugated plastic roof (for sheer strength) buried by earth and camoflaged if in any way possible. It just
seems easier and more feasible to do properly and keep sealed. The installation could probably be managed by one man,
which is all the better.
Better still, how about renting a Bobcat and burying one (or more, for length) of these (http://www.ghaustralia.com/index.html)
into the side of a hill? You'd want to reinforce the insides on all six sides first, obviously, but it'd make one hell of a nice
"man-cave" or even fallout shelter. Too bad they don't mention the price anywhere in their site...
209 July 3rd, 2007, 01:22 PM

Has anyone ever contemplated a bunker underneath their house? Would that be awesome or what? 3 story house, cement
foundation then a concealed trap door at the back of a closet or something that leads down a steep flight of stairs or a ladder
going to down under the house and into an elaborate (deep) underground bunker.
So the first hall can be as long as required, then it opens into the main bunker, lookers, equipment, whatever and maybe a
bunk. then the next hall (diagonal) runs as far as you need it to for the escape or other secret entrance. In this case, then
escape route would lead underground into the thick woods behind my house:) . Maybe the halls are closed off by steel doors
and the escape route could open into a hollowed out dead tree or something like that:D . This would be the ultimate bunker
for hiding things, escaping, or waiting it out when the cops come or hitmen show up. :D
Possible? No doubt incredibly expensive and difficult, but if you could round up the cash......
Alexires July 9th, 2007, 03:13 AM

209 - I think you may be underestimating how heavy a foot (30cm) of dirt actually would be if it covered 5-10 m2 (10m x
10m). I've heard of people burying shipping containers (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://
www.thecontainerman.com/images/standard_large.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thecontainerman.com/
sales.htm&h=475&w=640&sz=82&hl=en&start=15&tbnid=92yj-jA7BFxj8M:&tbnh=102&tbnw=137&prev=/
images%3Fq%3Dshipping%2Bcontainer%26gbv%3D2%26svnu m%3D10%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG) to grow
weed in, but the roof collapsed...
You would need to shore the roof or reinforce it somehow. Personally, I would go with digging a fairly big hole (enough to
accommodate 2 shipping containers, either 20 or 40 feet) laying a slab of concrete with re-bar (waterproofed with some
chemical as well with a few layers of builders plastic underneath).
When this has dried, get the two containers put into the hole on top of the concrete. You would either have to hire a crane, or
go work for a crane company to get your license, and hire it. Otherwise, you might be in some trouble.
Next would be shoring the sides of the dirt up with with wood, and then using plastic as a barrier to moisture again. You
probably would need to make sure the insides of the containers can handle the stress of concrete pressing on it, or otherwise
use brick. Before you do this though, make sure that you somehow link the two containers together so you can get into both.
After that, run a few pieces of wood other the top of the containers (leaving a hole big enough to run a ladder down so you can
get in later). You would need to have these planks on their edges as opposed to flat, if you get my meaning. Then place
some more wood, flat this time, over the top, plastic and concrete it all in, hoping it doesn't collapse and apply some dirt as
cameo. After this, if you are feeling fairly happy with it all, get some drain pipe (PVC), dig a fairly deep ditch or two, and run
that to the containers so that you can vent CO2 and have an intake of oxygen. Put a hydroponics fan in there, or some kind
of fan to force air in.
Shipping containers are only structurally sound on the corners; the walls/roof/floor will NOT support weigh, so you will need to
factor this in.
Of course, that is just off the top of my head. You would need to talk to someone that has an idea about these things, or
otherwise have a lot of money to burn, and if you do, you might as well have it built for you.
Personally, I think that shipping containers are a good way to go. They are fairly cheap, available, and people wont tend to
ask too many questions. You can hire them or buy them outright (obviously you are going to do the latter).
Some concrete, wood, plastic and FORETHOUGHT and you would have a fairly decent hide away.
Match July 9th, 2007, 12:10 PM

I was thinking about 'acquiring' a mini dig (http://www.andover-groundworks.co.uk/images/minidig.gif) and then start digging
a hole underneath camouflage netting. Once the hole was large enough, the top would be covered while digging would be
maintained underneath. Dirt would be fed into the back of a truck via conveyor and dumped in a suitable location every
morning. Fresh air supply and muffling as well as power generation would be things to consider.
Work would be performed during the day to help prevent the project being discovered by an IR equipped whirly bird.
If one were to own an official looking picker truck, wood could be acquired by collecting pallets which are usually easily
obtained around various shipping and receiving warehouses. Large boulders could be also collected from surrounding
townships. Large boulders could be crushed ( or exploded)to yield smaller fragments to be used in construction. In un-crushed
form, they are suitable road blocks for preventing vehicles from parking on your 'house'
The relatively small pieces of wood could be glued and fastened together into giant I -beams capable of supporting huge
amounts of weight. Cement and glue would be the most expensive items to acquire. Fuel would be a considerable expense as
well.
Alexires July 9th, 2007, 11:59 PM

Match - A worthy idea apart from a few problems.
What did you plan to cover it with? You could always go the old planks with some supports every metre of two to support the
weight, then pile dirt on it. Of course, if the beams rotted......
If you are going to be using a generator to get power that is going to be a massive beacon for IR. Either don't use it, or pump
the exhaust somewhere where it won't be noticed.
I suppose the two main reasons that anyone would want for one of these hidey-holes are these -
a) Escaping pursuit
b) living when shit hits the fan (but no direct pursuit)
If you are going to live in it, it will be very different from a place that you can run to if you need to get away. If it is just a
temporary place for if you are being pursued, you just need a hole in the ground that you are going to use for less than a
month. After a month, you will need something better.
I say a month, because you will start having problems with food, hygiene and water at about that time. Ideally, your hidey-
hole would be in the middle of a forest, away from stuff, where there is plenty of wild food and game for you to eat. Have
some freeze dried stuff buried nearby (military MRE -Meals Ready to Eat). You will want to build near running water, and
probably have your toilet DOWNSTREAM from the running water. You do not want to contaminate your water supply. In an ideal
situation like that, I'd say 6-months to indefinitely, depending on how you worked it.
If it is for when the shit hits the fan, but you don't have anyone that is out for your ass, then it will be built differently than if
you just need to hide.
For some kind of economic/SHTF/dictatorship, you will need a place with power, food, water, toilet, that is all ready for you to
run to and just start again. Here, you might want to have a look at NBK's file on defensive architecture for building your little
home away from home. Obviously some of it is going to be inappropriate, but most of it can apply to any kind of home,
above or below ground.
Plenty of survival guides have been written with regards to things like this.
Edit: Another idea is rainwater tanks. You can by room size plastic ones that, while they wouldn't be incredibly strong, are
relatively light (compared to shipping containers) and are fairly cheap and definitely "OTC" (if such a word can apply to
something that big). You could buy 3 or 4, bury them next to one another and link them up, leaving one attached to a small
shack (obviously run down and disused) to collect rainwater.
The shack acts as an entrance, or as a decoy, depending on how you feel. A little thought and engineering, and I'm sure you
could make it so that they won't collapse. This would give you water, waterproof rooms and the plastic would act as an insulator
(compared to metal).
Just fresh air (perhaps cultivate some medicinal herbs) would be needed, and food, which can be found if necessary.
ChippedHammer July 11th, 2007, 10:30 AM

I just had a idea, dig a hole slightly larger than a large rainwater tank, place the tank in the hole and fill around the tank with
concrete with some rebar for good measure. A large 40,000L tank is cheaper than a shipping container and i imagine it would
be stronger with a thick concrete outer shell. Then again you could always get a underground tank and skip the concrete.
Where im at no one would blink a eye and i think the government gives a nice rebte and chuck in a nice pump :)
nbk2000 July 11th, 2007, 08:40 PM

While building an Uber-bunker sounds cool, that forces you to remain close to it, as all your supplies and equipment are
there.
If the enemy discovers your location and you manage to flee again, you're not S.O.L., as you had to leave everything behind.
Better would be to remain highly mobile by having many small stashes and hidey-holes scattered over the area, so you never
have to stay in one spot too long, or lose much if you have to flee. :)
Also, this means you don't have to physically carry a lot of stuff when you leave your current lair, as you can pick up more
supplies as you go from your other lairs. ;)
Oh, and rather than room-sized, keep 'em small...about the size of a drain culvert. Just big enough to crawl into and turn
around, with maybe a small cube at the far end to sit up in and store stuff.
You'd want to have them well-sealed so they stay uninhabited by animals and bugs. Last thing you'd want to have to do after
running for your life is to fight a skunk for ownership of your lair. :p
festergrump July 12th, 2007, 02:12 PM

I might be nuts (it's been mentioned), but I think there's a very strong possibilty that both types of man-caves would be in
order, anymore. These are some scary times we're living in. :(
There's alot of speculation these days about Bush and company "allowing" a briefcase nuke to be detonated somewhere in the
USA to scare the sheeple into demanding that they take all the rest of our rights away and declare martial law. (Nothing Bush
does surprises me anymore :rolleyes:).
In that case, I'd want something a little roomier to live in until the fallout reaches reasonable levels before venturing out
again. The deeper the better, too, in that instance.
The hidey holes and cache-containers you're talking about would come in very handy after that, NBK, as you'd constantly want
to avoid confrontations with the internment camp henchmen that'd be out jackbooting in doors for weapon confiscation and
arresting civilians for curfew violations. Those types of hideys would be needed everywhere you intend to operate once our
smirking president finally declares himself King and abolishes all civil liberties.
My main concern wouldn't be the "hows" or "wheres" of digging the larger unit, though, but rather the venting and air filtration.
Nothing would suck worse than to suffocate in your own hideout after going through all the trouble to build the damn thing.
:eek:
I love the idea of being able to travel light, however, and just grab more stash on the run. :cool: I don't think I could handle
even a 40 lb. pack for too very long, anymore... Only problem I can foresee with going the multiple cache route is the
increased expense of equipment and goods to actually cache. I'm already poor enough! :o I'd probably have to resort to
sniping stragglers and stocking my hideys with THEIR shit. (*DING* Now there's an idea :D).
ChippedHammer July 12th, 2007, 02:41 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of a storage facility, would be nice to have all gear gear stored away from the home in
bunker thats kept cool all year round. If something goes wrong all your hear is a thud' in the night :)
FireBomb July 20th, 2007, 05:34 PM

Well I for one have been thinking on this subject extensively here for the last several days and have come to the conclusion
and realization that no one has suggested yet.
My biggest concern with building a bunker/lair under ground is that if you want any type of quality you need to use concrete.
Here in lies the problem if your only one person or maybe a small handful of trusted friends, once a site has been chosen
getting the required materials there causes a problem..(example several hundred if not thousands of cubic feet of concrete.)
This can be solved by using bags of suitable concrete which weigh around 80lbs but you still have the problem of once you get
all the required materials there, once you start pouring the concrete you have to do it fairly quickly or you will have problems
with it curing unevenly leading to even more problems.
While you can use a small portable concrete mixer it still limits the amount you can pour at a time.
You also have to supply power and don't forget water, now while this would work in some cases what about cases of you
building your bunker/lair in a remote location where easy access is not an option.
Now what I propose is that someone interested in a project like this why not use prefabricated molds that are measured, and
build interlocking blocks to build a large arched underground bunker/lair.
Heck civilizations have been building structures like this for centuries. Some have the ability to support thousands if not
hundreds of thousands of pounds of weight.
This would not be too much of a project as it would only require basic geometry to map out the size and shape of the blocks
needed.
Also it could easily be done in secret on site with just a few molds and a couple bags of concrete and some water all brought to
the site via truck or even ATV in several loads.
It could even be more simplified by using a wheelbarrow instead of a mixer. All you need then is a couple of gallons of water
and a hoe to mix it up with.
Construction blocks once cured could be lifted into place and cemented in by even one person if the weight was kept low
enough (example under 100lbs) and held in place with a simple wooded scaffolding. Using a hoist or pulley system to lift
them.
The only draw back of this project is it would be very very time consuming.
If at anytime you decide that you would like to expand you could simply remove a few selected blocks the rear wall dig out
some more and lay in blocks as you go.
Heck if a suitable location was found with good solid bedrock why not just blast/carve out an area while this would probably be
much more time consuming and in my opinion more difficult and dangerous in the suitable place it could provide outstanding
results.
Ok well thats enough for now if this idea strikes anyones fancy I might look into posting a few images up somewhere of
suitable designs for molds and the like..
AcMav July 21st, 2007, 01:47 AM

Well I was thinking about the idea of how to roof a custom made Bunker, and I think I've come up with a relatively cheap
solution, as long as you don't mind digging twice as much.
Step 1: Dig your hole for the bunker and construct a roof-less bunker in the hole, make sure that you save the dirt and make
sure if you're using rebar to leave provisions for installing a roof above
Step 2: Construct your horizontal exit and duct tape a tarp or sheet of plastic over the doorway.
Step 3: Fill the "concrete box" with the dirt removed from the hole until you get a flat surface, which can be covered with a tarp
or plywood to support the concrete.
Step 4: Pour your ceiling and let dry
Step 5: Dig through the doorway and empty the chamber of dirt, leaving you with the perfect, custom, bunker
I do acknowledge the fact it might be hard to hide doing this, but you could always go get a permit to make a foundation and
pretend thats what you're doing and then stop building your small hut with just the slab set after running into "financial
limitations"
FireBomb July 21st, 2007, 12:25 PM

The only problem I can see with your suggestion AcMav is that once you backfill in your bunker to pour the ceiling the dirt
would settle quite a bit from the weight of the concrete on top of it.
Jome skanish July 21st, 2007, 11:54 PM

Bedrock would be perfect, one could use snail-dynamite (CaO+water) to break the rock up after drilling holes. If one builds
somewhere where there is only dirt, it'll get a lot harder. Too much water such as groundwater would make it almost impossible
to cure the cement/concrete properly.
For support, valves would likely be the best solution. A flat-roofed room will be MUCH weaker than a valved against pressure
from above. The valves could be supported when curing by a wooden framework, and before setting up the valves one could
use brick and wood columns. Like they did in the good ol' days...
For walls if building in dirt or the rock is wet one could use pre-cured cement pieces, that is an excellent suggestion. Perhaps
one could use bentonite to contain moisture until the glue-utilized cement has cured.
nbk2000 July 22nd, 2007, 02:36 AM

Valves? :p
Perhaps you meant 'vaulted' roofs?
If the earth is fairly dry and stable, it can be self-supporting with a properly arched (vaulted) profile.
Jacks Complete July 27th, 2007, 02:02 PM

I seriously doubt you would get fresh air by growing any type of herb, medicinal or not!
If you want a solid roof (and yes, you *do* want a solid roof) you can either add it before digging out underneath it, or you
can wait until the hole is dug, then fill or cover the hole with something and pour the concrete over the top.
The advantage of making the hole first is that it is far quicker and easier - all you need is a back hoe and a few days. The
downside is you need serious lengths and strengths of wooden beams and steel or wooden boards to cover the hole with.
Thinking sideways a bit, though, you could use a large and tough inflatable to fill the hole for a day or two, then collapse it
and remove it, leaving your void behind. Perhaps buy a cheap bouncy castle, flip it over in the hole and inflate. Cover with a
tarp. Space your steel grids over it to avoid holes, and make sure they are already self supporting, then add some concrete.
Let it set a bit, then add some more. I'd go with the quickest setting stuff you can find! Once set to a decent hardness, deflate
and remove, then leave it a few days before jumping on it to check it is set and strong enough.
I'd probably then repeat the exercise with a second layer over the top, spaced with something to stop ground penetrating
radar, water ingress, etc. and then leave it a month to get to full strength before covering in a foot of earth and some seeds.
You would, of course, need to think logistics first. Things like escape tunnels and floors and walls would need to be in place
before you did this.
Any mech eng out there who know the support and masses involved in something like this?
Skean Dhu July 27th, 2007, 06:22 PM

Stabilized earth shelters might be the way to go.
They have many advantages.
- Cheap
- Few construction materials
- Temporary or permenant
- Only needs one person to construct
http://www.calearth.org/Emerg_files/KhaliliEmergShltr.pdf
Basically what you do is take a long sack, fill it with dirt, and coil it up like a bee hive or vaulted tunnel. For long term
structures you add either lime or cement to 'stabilize' the earth. By adjusting the amount of concrete in the mix you can make
it stronger and more permenant. With the shapes that you use for these buildings being domes and vaulted tunnels they
have inherent strength.
The only disadvantage is that the maximum diameter for a beehive type construction is around 14 feet. This is easily
overcome through crafty design and linking more 'hives' to the main chamber. With the addition of some plastic sheeting on
the outside or even an adobe spacle/ cistern coating the chambers would be extremely water resistant if not water proof. and
the bonus of these structures one of the main construction igredients is dirt, which given the size of the excavation you would
have plenty of. And the less dirt you have to haul away the more covert the location is.
sbovisjb1 July 27th, 2007, 08:39 PM

I suggest that you find a old well or natural inlet (cave perhaps?) and secure it. By secure I mean that you should geologically
and structurally check the area if it will be appropriate for you and is sound so that it won't cave in.
FireBomb July 28th, 2007, 04:21 AM

Stabilized earth shelters might be the way to go.
They have many advantages.
- Cheap
- Few construction materials
- Temporary or permenant
- Only needs one person to construct
Wow that is actually really cool idea.
I did think of using sand bags for construction but decided not to mention it because it seemed like a bad idea at the time,
but seeing this gives me some new ideas.
I wonder what the price of that bag like tubing cost its probably fairly cheap.
I also like the fact that you can add cement or lime to strengthen the structure.
I will have to look into the cost of this and see what it would run for a decent sized structure.
Alexires July 29th, 2007, 07:23 AM

I have a friend of mine that went out with an Army Engineer the other day and had a look at a command post that was below
ground, and from what he was telling me, it is perfect.
First of all, a hole is excavated about 3-4 metres square and about 5 metres down. A sump hole is excavated about a metre
square beneath this excavated hole and filled with gravel till its level with the bottom of the 3-4m2 excavated hole.
The frame for the shores on the walls are built, using about 100x150mm timber constructed in rectangular fashion with
diagonal cross pieces. 3 of these are made the same, and the final shore wall is made with a door hole (making sure to have
diagonals running to it). Attach corrugated iron to frame, then tech screw some concrete fiber boards to the frame. Apply some
engine oil, or some diesel to the wooden frames to protect them some from termites. Put these in the hole, attach them
together (either bolt, or wire them, but use thick gauge wire).
Lay down the floor with crossed pieces of timber like the walls, then attach some more timber inbetween the gaps of the walls
to add support. Lay down some MDF board for the floor and tech screw that to the floor. Put timber beams up across where the
roof is going to be (about 200x150mm) These should extend PAST the shore walls into the ground surrounding (dig a little
platform and put some concrete in or something to lay the beam on)
Attach some cross beams between the main beams, then tech screw some corrugated iron onto the top of that. Cut 2 or 3
holes in the corrugated iron and run some PVC pipe up, across for a few metres then up out into the ground. This pipe is
about 150-200mm in diameter. The 90 joins are to stop grenades and stuff. Put caps on the PVC above ground to stop the
water Dump all dirt you dug out on top of the corrugated iron. It should hold as the engineers drove a truck onto it.
This is how the army does it. This is a second hand source, so it might be a little off, but I'm sure all the main points are
there.
irish August 8th, 2007, 09:12 PM

Bit of a late reply here but digging holes is one thing I do know about :) .
The main thing to keep in mind is the type of ground you will be digging in, sandy, loamy soils are dangerous and need heavy
timbering, if you have heavy clay you will get away with a lot less.
The best thing for the purpose covered in this thread is to tunnel into the side of a hill or bank/cliff, better ventilation and
drainage that way. It is a lot more stable if you can get away without large "rooms", for example you may dig a ten meter long
by 700mm wide and one meter high tunnel then dig five short tunnels at 90 degrees for the storage space. That will give you
a large space with minimal chance of collapse.
The timbering I am using in my current tunnel (for Gold) is very simple due to the hard, stable clay I'm going though, this
comes off a bank and is about two meters deep and going into deeper ground (tunnel is 700mm X 1000mm). I'm digging with
a Walco pick (sharp point one end blade at the other made from car spring) and using treated pine for timber, I would
normaly use bush timber but this tunnel will be used for a few years (all going well).
Hope these photo's work.
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2297/img5865bi1.th.jpg (http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=img5865bi1.jpg)
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7287/img5866mi6.th.jpg (http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=img5866mi6.jpg)
Timber is cut just oversize and hammered into place with no nails, dark stuff in the top of one photo is tin roofing held by
extra timber in a soft spot.
Charles Owlen Picket August 9th, 2007, 12:47 PM

It's a bit OT but the bunkers are a piece of work ..... so, speaking of underground bunkers....check this out..
www.nevilleawards.com/islamburg.shtml
www.saveourstate.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t12676.html
reazion.net/articles/Wesley_Smith.htm
www.city-data.com/forum/new-york/83307-islamburg-ny.html
www.american-partisan.com/cols/2002/king/qtr1/0225.htm
sparkchaser August 11th, 2007, 05:07 AM

Excavate a big freakin' hole and erect a monolithic dome. Very strong, very easy to build, and most of the equipment can be
rented fairly easily in many rural areas.
http://www.architectureweek.com/2001/0328/building_1-1.html
The research has already been done, just implement it!
anonymous411 August 13th, 2007, 10:43 PM

I seem to remember hearing of people constructing fallout shelters from partially buried schoolbuses. I'm sure however they
do it is completely ghetto compared to the plans above-- but if you're short on time, manpower, and money, it might be worth
looking into.
I was shocked to see a bus in, quote, "excellent condition" go for as little as 3.5K at BusMart-- I'll bet the junkers are a real
steal.
http://www.busmartinc.com/
A.C.E. August 21st, 2007, 04:18 PM

Reading through this tread for maybe the fourth time, I think I've come up with a couple of things that I feel haven't been
mentioned or at least not discussed thoroughly enough. I also have an idea for a construction plan.
If you're building underground, you don't need to use solid concrete, you can build the walls from cinderblocks or bricks. The
ground will shield it from outside attacks. The roof can be constructed from almost anything from timber to metal, depending
on what material you have available and are skilled in working with. Just make sure to protect it from water.
Concrete, as well as most cement based mortars will cure perfectly well even if it's wet. In fact, concrete must be kept wet/
moist for at least a week (more if it's warm) in order to cure properly. What happens otherwise is that the cement dries before
it cures, this reduces the strengt of it A LOT.
The main problem with underground constructions is to keep water out of it. It doesn't matter if you're burying an old bus or
building a "Fallout" style vault, you'll still have water to worry about. Unless you live in the desert in with case you can skip this
paragraph. In order to keep the water out of your bunker you must do two things. ONE, lead the water away from the top of
the construction. TWO, remove the water that gathers under the construction.
Leading the water away from the top is easy, just cover the construction is building plastic or something similar. NOTE, concrete
is not waterproof and will absorb water, causing the roof to leak.
Removing it from the bottom could be a bit trickier. If you build somewhere where the ground is very sandy and the
groundwater level is low you will probably be ok with a good one-foot layer of gravel to drain the water away from your bunker.
If the ground is wet however you might run into some problems. I would suggest placing the bunker in a slope and putting
drainagetubes under it. Drainagetubes are basicly tubes or hoses with small holes in them that will allow water to enter from
the surrounding soil and be led of.
Based on this, here is my idea for a bunker. It can be built by any individual with a minimum of prior experience and no heavy
machinery, exept for a bobcat, unless you really like digging by hand.
1. First, select a spot for your shelter, preferably a dry place with sandy soil.
2. Dig a hole big enough to fit your construction, add a half metre in every direction. If the hole starts filling with water rigt
away, find another spot.
3. Fill the bottom of your hole with gravel or clinker. It is a very good idea to put drainage tubes in the gravel in order to lead
the water away from your construction. Just make sure they lead the water AWAY from your site.
4. If you want a classy floor, make a mold and fill it with concrete. If you lack the knowledge and equipment, just make sure
the surface is level.
5. Start building the walls using cinderblocks and mortar. Your best friend here is the bubble level. Keep everything absolutely
straigt and level and you won't have a problem.
6. When the walls are done, add a layer of "Platon"-mat or similar waterprofing product. Let the mortar cure.
www.systemplaton.com
7. Now for the roof, unless you're an experienced construction worker I suggest using timber. Build it so that it slopes to one
end and cover it with plastic or platon-mat. I hope I don't have to tell you to use waterproofed timber. Cover the plastic with
corrugated tin.
8. If you did evrything right, you should have about half a metre of air around your walls, fill this gap with gravel or clinker.
Cover the roof with about 30cm. of clinker or gravel and then fill the hole with dirt. According to one of my army manuals 1
metre of dirt reduces nuclear radiation by 50%.
I didn't mention how to make the entrance as this would have to depend on the terrain, but either a door in the wall or a
ladder through a hole in the roof could easily be made. Same thing with ventilation.
If you didn't go with a concrete floor you should build a somewhat elevated wooden floor to avoid problems with moisture
creeping up through the ground. You should also place a pump here to handle any possible flooding.
Voila, your very own bunker is finished. Enjoy.
futuredictator August 24th, 2007, 09:40 PM

It seems the main problem with building an underground bunker is the roofing. I live in Arizona so the soil here is pretty
tough and mostly clay so I'm not too worried about it. But I'd also like to have a more permanent roof rather than just
plywood. Does anyone have an bright ideas as to building a roof out of cement, but not having to use the burying method?
Having a tunnel-like bunker seems ideal, because you could make it longer and longer without having to dig it out from the
surface. This also allows you to spread your bunker out to places where you wouldn't be able to dig out (neighbor's backyard).
Any ideas?
akinrog August 26th, 2007, 04:04 PM

I don't know about the improvisability of the following idea, however I vaguely remember watching a documentary about
tunnels in Discovery channel.
According to that video, IIRC, there was a need to build a subway tunnel under the (bed of) River Thames; since the
conditions are muddy, a new method of tunnel construction should have been invented.
I found a wiki link for the concept : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Tunnel
Anyway concept is like this: Instead of digging the tunnel, you are driving a hollow tube like frame into the the tunnel and dig
inside area while reinforcing the area behind the gadget (either by masonry or maybe a reinforcement steel cage and
shotcrete).
I mean how hard to construct a three pieced (wedged) steel tube, which shall be assembled into a full tube just before use by
bringing three pieces (wedges of 120 degree angle) and using a few jacks to drive it into soil (horizontally)?
Wedges shall have brackets / tabs inside with necessary bolting holes so they can be assembled to form a hollow tube (with
let's say 2.0 meter diameter).
You drive the thing into soil, empty / dig the hollow part inside the tube and drive it again while reinforcing the area behind it
by means of steel cage and shotcrete or masonry.
If someone can improvize this, it shall be poor man's tunnel boring machine, so you can construct large tunnels without
fearing the collapses. Of course underground water shall still pose a problem. :(
AFAIK, this system is the core of current modern tunnel boring machines.
I hope I could explain myself. Regards.
Jacks Complete September 2nd, 2007, 04:37 PM

akinrog, that won't work on a dry soil, it only worked because the "soil" being burrowed through was soaked through mud at
what was effectively the bottom of a river that had risen over the past hundreds of years as shit and silt was dumped in it.
Modern tunnelling machines come in two flavours, those using diamond or carbide teeth to cut the rock, and those using
waterjet systems to cut the rock. The silt burrowing method is generally avoided these days as people tend to get killed when
it all floods at speed, and the entire tunnel needs to be pressure bearing and waterproof. To save money, they dig down
deeper and go through the rock.
chemdude1999 September 2nd, 2007, 10:23 PM

To save money, they dig down deeper and go through the rock.
Precisely. I remember watching a painfully detailed documentary on the "Chunnel". They showed schematics of the rock strata
underneath the water. For the most part they could stay in the ideal rock strata, but they did spend much time and effort
dodging the nasty slip-and-slide silts. Apparently, the effort and money was worth it, if it meant avoiding a possible great
danger.
Even though the Thames tunnel was a solution to a existing problem, I still like akinrog's idea. If one took adequate
measurements, precautions, and included strong structural elements, it would certainly be viable.
The underground water problem could be avoided with redundant pumps and/or careful planning. By that I mean keeping the
levels correct so that the water would flow away (i.e., providing a lesser path of resistance than your bunker). Examining
foundation books for information on tiling and water runoff should help the builder.
In regards to futuredictator's post up above, don't underestimate a good plywood and structural beam roof. Using newer
laminates (both plywood and glulam beams), you could have a damn sturdy roof, without the hassle of concrete. Otherwise, I
would recommend prefab units. Not easy, I know (especially custom). Keep in mind, that a beam/plywood structure is easier
for a DIY person to expand on. You just need common tools (compound miter saw, circular, saw, maybe a table saw). Caulk
the joints between the plywood and you should be good to go. Note: This would not work as well in wetter climates like eastern
USA or the UK.
akinrog September 7th, 2007, 12:47 AM

akinrog, that won't work on a dry soil, it only worked .....
Actually after a little reading on and thinking about the subject, I also agree that driving the structure (shield) into soil under
dry and rocky conditions shall be a pain in the ass (without distorting the shield) if not possible.
However I'm of the opinion that the tube shall provide a shelter to prevent collapses while digging. Dig a little inside drive the
tube, dig a little inside, drive the tube and so on so on.
Modern tunnelling machines come in two flavours, those using diamond
Although TBMs have various types the main system is coating the inside of the bored sections. Some machines uses circular
tiles which forms a tube when laid and others use shotcrete.
I believe if (a gigantic if of course), I may ever manage to improvise and use the system, I shall be going for shotcrete option
with steel cage. Regards.
nbk2000 September 7th, 2007, 01:46 AM

Used TBM's are far cheaper than new ones, as they have a pretty limited lifespan.
What's shot-out for industrial use would work perfectly fine for a survival shelter.
Think about it...the machines are rated in meters of tunnel dug per hour through rock or soil.
If you get 10 hours out of a machine that can do a 3' tunnel through limestone at 5 meters per hour, that's 50 meters of
tunnel. Once you've got a tunnel, expanding a part of it into a room would be a snap.
I've seen TBM's for under $10K that you could expect much more than 50 meters out of. :)
monkeyboy September 7th, 2007, 04:25 PM

I have a recurring dream that 20 or so years ago I helped a friend build an underground "bunker."
He started out by having one of those cheapo steel buildings erected. He talked them into going a bit longer with the
supporting posts, so they would be anchored deeper into the ground.
He then bought a 1 ton truck with a dump bed & cover(2 1/2 yard, I think).
Every day, he'd dig out enough of the dirt floor of the building to fill the bed of the truck. Lots of places around with "clean fill
dirt wanted" signs...
He added a bit of interior bracing to the posts to keep the thing from collapsing.
He dug down one side first, so it looked like a big ramp. Then concrete blocked in that wall. Blocks of course brought home in
the covered bed of his truck. Then moved to the other side, leaving a big pile of dirt in the middle. Once the 4 walls were built,
he removed the dirt in the center, to a 2' deep pit. He then brought in enough pea gravel to fill the pit, in the covered truck.
Then we made a cement mixer out of an old stove oil tank, (400 gallon I think) the oval ones. We welded up some paddles
out of 1/4 plate, hooked up some little 4 cylinder motor he had lying around (vega, I think) through 2 transmissions, both in
first gear, for ultra low speed. Then he brought in truck loads of sand, gravel & cement to pour the slab floor. We had to do it
several sections, though. We were kind of concerned that might leak, so before we did the slab, he put a 300 gallon sump &
pump 2' under all that pea gravel.
For the roof, he brought in small I-beams, I think about 4" & put them in as columns on 10' centers. They were attached to
the floor with anchors that look like heavier versions of the anchors used for attaching 4x4s. Then a grid of the same 4"
channel was put in as rafters, supported by the columns. Over this we put in some really heavy corrugated galvanized sheet
metal, around 10-12 guage (it's the stuff they use for under ground retaining walls when they build a big building). All brought
in in the covered bed of his truck, of course.
Covered over that with pea gravel, then called to the concrete company & had enough concrete delivered to pour a floor for the
garage. We had already built a mechanics pit in one of the bays, which we had covered with tarps to keep out debris. And
prying eyes that might have noticed that the last few feet of it were actually a stairway into the basement...
For the purpose he needed to put it, he had to come up with an excuse for the high electricity usage & his extra income. So he
got a business license & purchased all the equipment for a welding shop. He actually pays taxes & can provide reciepts for all
the welding he does.:cool:
Sometimes I have the most realistic dreams.:D
gillagin780 November 26th, 2007, 10:06 PM

If you don't have accsess to a backhoe you could just blast out or loosen the dirt with ANFO or some other HE.
Then you just fine tune it with a shovel I dont think it would take that long.
Hinckleyforpresident November 27th, 2007, 07:24 PM

Trouble with that is that folks will know somethings up. Usually, you want your bunker to be a secret, and blasting your way
into the ground is a tad bit loud.
I think that the amount of explosives required to dig out a reasonable sized underground lair is way more than enough to get
noticed. That is, unless you don't have neighbors for several miles (or you have an active mine).
HE's might very well be much easier and cheaper than digging, but I don't think it's worth all the extra attention.
totenkov November 28th, 2007, 01:47 AM

If you are in a somewhat remote area blasting is still a viable option. I had used verious ANwax compostions for blasting dirt
for the removal of earth for an underground bunker (never completed).
Provided the charge is detonated deep in the ground with the idea of moving earth, you dont nessisarly get a large bang, but
a "whoomp" and shockwave that will move large abouts of dirt real fast. I wouldn't being doing this if you have neighbors that
live close. The ideal place would be in the country, If you live on a farm where you have lots of land, all the better.
Alexires November 28th, 2007, 09:33 PM

That said, who says you have to move all the dirt at once with a blast?
Why not drill some holes into the wall/ground/whatever you are trying to move and use small charges to soften the ground up
to a degree that you can move it with a shovel and a pick.
You don't need to go detonating tonnes of ANFO here, just sub-kilogram (probably less than .1kg) amounts of something with
a little more brisance, or you could do a 2-stage blast.
Drill a hole a few metres deep (5 maybe), then load an ANFO charge into the bottom, with an RDX/PETN/etc charge half way
up. As the blast train travels downwards, the high brisance charge shatters hard rock and then a suitable time afterwards
(couple of ms) the ANFO charge lifts it, making it much easier to move around.
Unless you are trying to build your bunker in a park in the middle of a city, I can't imagine that you would have many
problems from the local butcher (sells pork).
gillagin780 November 29th, 2007, 05:16 PM

Yes that was what i ment small charges could soften the dirt making it like sand. Making it very easy to dig deeply in a short
amount of time
sbovisjb1 January 19th, 2008, 02:14 PM

An underground bunker is a difficult plan to achieve, if you don't have access to a natural or man made fissure in the earth.
Man Made is not that great as the city would have plans of some sort in the archives. I would try and get the plans of my
neighborhood. Plans for Gas, Electricity, Phone and Water lines. Because when you start digging, you don't want to break
something. That would just get everyones attention really quick on what you are doing. But the further away from suburbia the
better.
Bugger January 19th, 2008, 03:50 PM

I would think that the ideal site for a secret hideout would be in a cleft in the side of a steeply sloping, densely forested, hill,
in a seldom-visited part of a large public reserve or park. It could be built into such a cleft in such a way that its height would
not "give it way", and then it could be further hidden by heaping earth and plant debris up against its walls and its roof. The
door, and shutters covering the windows, could be camouflaged with vegetation. But, at the same time, it would have to be
reaonably close to a road through the forest, so that building materials and tools can be offloaded and hidden at the nearest
point on the road, and then carried to the site.
wolfy9005 February 18th, 2008, 09:05 AM

An idea i've been thinking of is snagging a 40' container, and burying that underground with 6 feet or so of dirt(not sure on
how strong they are). It'd fit a bed, food for 6-12months, a water tank, and some other goodies.
good idea with the well, but it might just keep filling up so i'd be careful with it.
sbovisjb1 February 24th, 2008, 03:47 PM

Read Beneath the City Streets By Peter Laurie. http://www.amazon.com/Beneath-City-Streets-Peter-Laurie/dp/0140033815
Shows a lot of the government bunkers and tunnels. A lot of them are abandoned today, so use it to find a couple.
Bugger February 29th, 2008, 02:30 PM

This book, which I found on this page:
http://www.forumakademi.org/tunnelling-and-tunnel-mechanics-rational-t10274.html
contains a link to a download of a book of great importance to this thread:
Tunnelling and Tunnel Mechanics: A Rational Approach to Tunnelling
ISBN: 3540251960
Author: Dimitrios Kolymbas
Publisher: Springer ; 1st edition (September 26, 2005)
Publication Date: 2005-09-26
Number Of Pages: 437
Average Amazon Rating: 4.0
Summary
The book covers not only practical aspects but also the underlying theoretical approaches. It also covers the fundamentals of
rock mechanics. It addresses
not only students but also professionals who are interested to understand the underlying principles and methods and -
possibly - to further develop them.
Emphasis is given to the mechanical approach rather than to hardly tractable empirical statements. The text is concise and as
far as possible complete and
comprises a large list of citations. Publications of the English and German speaking scientific communities have been taken
into account.
Table of Contents
1 Introduction 3
2 Installations in tunnels 31
3 Investigation and description of the ground 57
4 Heading 75
5 Support 131
6 Grouting and freezing 159
7 The new Austrian tunnelling method 171
8 Management of groundwater 177
9 Application of compressed air 197
10 Subaqueous tunnels 203
11 Shafts 211
12 Safety during construction 217
13 Behaviour of soil and rock 235
14 Stress and deformation fields around a deep circular tunnel 271
15 Supporting action of anchors/bolts 305
16 Some approximate solutions for shallow tunnels 313
17 Stability of the excavation face 329
18 Earthquake effects on tunnels 335
19 Settlement of the surface 339
20 Stability problems in tunnelling 349
21 Monitoring 353
22 Numerical analysis of tunnels 365
A Physics of detonation 379
B Support of soil with a pressurised fluid 385
C A simple analytical approximation for frost propagation 387
D Rigorous solution for the steady water inflow to a circular tunnel 393
E Aerodynamic pressure rise in tunnels 397
F Multiphase model of reinforced ground 399
G Deformation of a tunnel due to seismic waves 403
H A rational approach to swelling 405
Download :
http://rs33tl.rapidshare.com/files/11768980/Tunnelling_and_Tunnel_Mechanics.rar 9.97 Mb - D. Kolymbas (Springer-2005)
crazywhiteguy July 10th, 2008, 03:41 AM

Normally functional rail car boxes get down to around 5000$ CAD around here. But often if you ask the scrapyards and railcar
warehousing places they will have abandoned and rusted out cars. The last price i saw for one of these was 500$. My dad's
friend was talking to me about a guy he knew in the business and also had a little fun fact for me. If you can find a rusted rail
car sitting in a rail park with a busted axle or wheel, you can contact the owner (their number is often on the train) 100% of the
time they will give it to you for free. Sometimes they will even pay for transport if its reasonable. The reason for this is simple.
It costs them money to keep it, It wouldn't generate any scrap money seeing as they are used until rusted into train hell and
no matter what they would still have to pay transport to get it off their tracks and storage area.
sbovisjb1 November 5th, 2008, 03:46 AM

http://www.oneofakindhouse.com/fortress.html
Someone showed me that! Its quite something. He built it over 20 years!
Bugger November 5th, 2008, 05:19 AM

To excavate and build something like that, by hand as he says, lined with reinforced concrete, and on 3 levels, he must have
been working full-time on it for the 20 years! As it is underneath the two-storey house, with the lowest level floor below sea
level, the house would have had to have been shored up with supports to prevent it from collapsing into the excavated hole,
and during the construction. It would be practically impossible for the Pigs to raid it without destroying it, and would give plenty
of time for thw owner to dispose of any contraband items. The "fortress" is in Blaine, Washington, very near the border with
British Columbia - the owner should think of building an escape tunnel from it into Canada! BTW I wonder if he got a building
permit from the local city council to excavate and build it.
Alexires November 5th, 2008, 07:30 AM

Oh man, I hope he has a fuck tonne of ventilation. If he doesn't CO2 poisoning for him and a massive build up of Radon. It
is pretty damn cool.
I have moved it to the underground bunker thread because that is where it should be.
inkhead November 24th, 2008, 11:59 PM

I own an Atlas F Missle Silo in Kansas as a secondary house, I can tell you that large cement containers into the ground
constantly sweat. And have to have a pump running often to keep them dry even when they aren't sweating. The place I have
had to be pumped of 15 feet of water, and then every so often I run the pump to make sure the very bottom of the silo
linked to the LCC is dry. It's a huge pain in the but. I learned that secure facilities like these and other underground bunkers
used by the military even today require HUGE amounts of upkeep just to keep the water from flowing in a sealed cement
container, or causing condensation. It's a huge problem because even leaving the facilities without electricity for a week could
easily flood an underground bunker or destroy anything valuable inside.
******************************
Use line breaks in future posts
-Hinckleyforpresident

I own an Atlas F Missle Silo in Kansas as a secondary house, I can tell you that large cement containers into the ground
constantly sweat. And have to have a pump running often to keep them dry even when they aren't sweating.
Is there anyway for you to install an industrial size dehumidifier? Also pictures would be great.
Moderator Note: You did not need to quote the whole post. What I have included was enough.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > lockpicking
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stanfield April 6th, 2002, 03:48 AM

Just to say that I bought some lockpick at <a href="http://www.southord.com/" target="_blank">http://www.southord.com/</
a> and this source is reliable even for international shipment...
pretty toys & works fine ! (but most of pick today can't be lockpicked by this method... shit !)
bye
[ April 06, 2002, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]
CiaAssAssian April 6th, 2002, 04:04 AM

what ya get stanfield , and what method is it that doesn't work anymore?
Machiavelli April 6th, 2002, 05:17 AM

I'm somewhat unsure about SouthOrd, the first time I ordered picks from them I got them pretty fast and the quality of the
picks was ok.
The next time I ordered I received nothing, after about 1,5 months I contacted them but never received a reply. But they
didn't charge me for it, so it wasn't such a big deal.
And now it's not important to me anymore, as a good friend of mine is selling picksets now, and he has a better selection than
SO. And he takes Euros of course :cool:
Btw, Stanfield, if I understand that strange sentence of yours correctly you state that most locks nowadays can't be picked by
that method. What brings you to that conclusion? What locks are you having problems with?
Personally, I'm an expert lockpicker and I can say that I open most locks with standard picks. Of course there are some high
security locks on the market that are difficult or impossible to open with this method, but they're not in wide use, there are
other methods to defeat them and often they're only fitted to the front door but not to the back door :D

lockpicking some picks is hard (I'm novice but it's hard...)
Some picks are pretty easy to unlock (in 5-10 second) but most of current picks today are unlockable...
could you give some of your "method" ? have you got some good books on lockpicking ?
thanx

After reading your posting, it seems like your biggest problem is that you're trying to open picks. That's a big mistake
because your tools are designed for opening locks, not for opening picks. :)
Now for opening locks, the first thing to keep in mind is that lockpicking is about practice. Start with the cheapest locks you can
get and practice on them, try to open them by raking them and by setting each single pin and try to understand what you're
doing.
Picture the lock in your mind, which pin is at which hight, how many pins are inside the lock, etc.
Of course you need to know the theory of lockpicking first, one of the best books about this is the so called MIT Guide.
<a href="http://home.t-online.de/home/lockpicking/MIT_F/crochetage.html" target="_blank">http://home.t-online.de/home/

lockpicking/MIT_F/crochetage.html</a> French
<a href="http://home.t-online.de/home/lockpicking/MIT_D/mit-guid.htm" target="_blank">http://home.t-online.de/home/
lockpicking/MIT_D/mit-guid.htm</a> German
<a href="http://www.lysator.liu.se/mit-guide/mit-guide.html" target="_blank">http://www.lysator.liu.se/mit-guide/mit-
guide.html</a> English
<a href="http://www.lockpicking.nl" target="_blank">www.lockpicking.nl</a> should have a dutch one, but I can't reach the
server at the moment
It would be useful if you could maybe post a picture of the lock you're working on that you can't open or at least tell me the
name and maybe what the key looks like. Same goes for the tools you're trying to open it with.
Btw, if you're a novice you really shouldn't state things like that most locks nowadays are not pickable (at least that would be a
possible translation of your raped English), just because you can't do it and because the manufacturer says it doesn't mean
shit.
nbk2000 April 6th, 2002, 11:38 PM

I found, in my experience, that most common household locks (slage (SP?), kwik-set, and stanley) open in a few seconds if
you use a rake pick.
That's the pick that looks like this:
<PRE>
__/\/\/\
_______)
</PRE>
You use a can of WD-40 with the little red straw attachment to hose the
shit out of the locks internals before you rake the pins rapidly. The WD-40 loosens up the pins so they don't stick, plus it
makes it much more quiet to rake.
I could open some locks faster with the rake than with the key!
If you run across a Medico, DOM, Kaba, or similiar "High-Security" lock, don't waste your time trying to pick it. You're not going
to be able to do it.
Rather, look for an easier way in, or blast it if you have to.
[ April 06, 2002, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
green beret April 7th, 2002, 12:36 AM

Does anyone have "Modern High Security Locks and how to open them" by Steven Hampton.
I have a pick set and a pick gun, I still need more practice with both though, but I really love the gun, sometimes a door will
open with just one or two clicks.
NBK; I also use WD40 with the staw attachment when raking, I have also tried graphite powder.
When damage and a little noise is acceptable, I dont bother picking I use the old crow bar, most of the time the door frames
come away like stale bread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
It make me laugh, some places put on these top quality pick proof deadlocks yet the doors and frames are very brittle and
weathered....
Jack Ruby April 7th, 2002, 04:41 AM

I just recently got a pick set.
It is more for the Challenge then for the sake of picking locks. If I need in I will get in... and I probableywon't pick the lock

Don't believe the hype NBK, I've opened quite a few "high security" dimple locks from DOM and KABA by simple raking, took
me less than 30 seconds each. It doesn't work on every lock but it's always worth a try. One tool especially useful for raking
these locks is SO pick SP12
<a href="http://www.southord.com/catalog.asp?cat=locksmith&rowstart=10" target="_blank">http://www.southord.com/
catalog.asp?cat=locksmith&rowstart=10</a>
Green Beret, I have a photocopy of that book but it's rather lame. If you're an advanced lockpicker you really don't need it
because you can get the infos you need by getting the product descriptions and using your brain and if you're a novice then
you shouldn't fuck with the locks described. Then there's Steven's usual kung-fu bullshit and he refuses to describe tubular
picks for security reasons.
Waste of money imho.
nbk2000 April 7th, 2002, 07:25 AM

Tubular locks...security? Nigger please! :rolleyes:
A small flat blade chisel and a large pair of vise grips makes short work of them.
You first use the chisel to pry up the rim that covers the pins. Next, use the vise-grips as a hammer on the chisel to knock out
the pins. Then you grap the center post with the vise-grips (channel locks work better) and twist it till it breaks off. Then use
the chisel to reach into the lock and operate the bolt retractor.
:p
There's many different types of DOM and KABA locks. So I'd imagine that there's at least a few that are vulnerable. I'm also
sure there's some that CAN'T be fucked with in any reasonable amount of time.
I'm mean, sure, if you have all day and infinite patience, you can pick any lock. But if I can't do it within a minute or less, I'm
walking away to try another route.
One thing you can do once you have a lock open, is tamper with it to make it easy for you to get in later. You remove the lock
from the door and replace it with a similar looking lock face so anyone walking by won't notice a hole in the door while you're
working on the lock.
You disassemble it and remove all the pins except the one closest to the front of the keyway.
Reassemble and replace in the door.
Now, you have only to use the "master key" to lift the solitary pin to the correct height to open the lock. You just buy a key
blank for the lock and file it down with a sloped angle from the tip to the body.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Key-Blank_Sloped.gif" alt="" />
Cost, $1. :D
The lock will still sound normal when the original key is inserted, and will even "lock" the door, but since all the pins but one
have been removed, it's trivial for you to open when needed.
Just slowly slide your "master" key in and it'll lift the pin to the proper height.
Example would be the chemical closet at the schools science lab. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
This way, you only have to risk getting caught picking the lock once. After that, you can just walk up and put in a key anytime
you need in.
stanfield April 7th, 2002, 02:18 PM

what about this :
<img src="http://www.lockpickers.com/lp/pistol.gif" alt="" />
anyone have one of these thing ? Is it easy with them ?
thanx
johnn 99 April 7th, 2002, 02:32 PM

Yes, they work fine, and are less of a hassle than electric pickguns. But you can make one out of coathanger wire that will work
just as well, in about 10 minutes. So why wast the $60?
stanfield April 7th, 2002, 02:44 PM

heu...... have you got some schema ? I don't know how these pistol works (juste a little bit...)
thanx !
nbk2000 April 7th, 2002, 07:21 PM

There's several lockpicking books on the FTP. Download them.
skeleton_keys April 7th, 2002, 09:21 PM

I've been supporting myself in my spare time these last five years by doing locksmithing jobs. I open homes, buildings, cars,
safes, you name it. Here's some advice about lockpicking. . .a good way to learn is to buy yourself a pinning kit, perhaps from
Lockmasters in Kentucky ( <a href="http://www.lockmasters.com/default.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lockmasters.com/
default.htm</a>), and a cheap deadbolt of the same brand as the pinning kit you bought. Also buy a desktop vice, so you
can simply clamp the deadbolt in the vice at home and practice picking whenever you want to. Once you get good at picking it,
use your kit to change the pin combination inside the lock, and start over again. Never waste your money on one of those
"Lockpicking School" boxes for $100. All they give you is a mounting block and five cheap locks.
Southord is good for lockpicks, but you can also try ProLok and especially Lockmasters. They have *beautiful* equipment, and
most of what they sell is tools to help you defeat locks. Go to a place like <a href="http://www.firemarktools.com"
target="_blank">www.firemarktools.com</a> for forcible entry equipment, I've used them several times. They've got quality
stuff at good prices, and fast shipping.
When it comes to opening up businesses, you can save yourself the trouble of learning to pick locks and just invest in an O-
tool or mortise cylinder removal tool. An O-tool rips mortise locks right off the door, and the removal tool just shears off the
set screws holding the lock in place so it can be unscrewed from the door. Most businesses out there have mortise cylinder
locks (or rim cylinders), so whereas you may not be able to pick them all the time, you can *always* remove them with a little
effort. A good O-tool only costs $65, and a mortise cylinder removal tool is usually less than $40.
If anybody here wants to discuss lockpicking and security defeats in detail, feel free to e-mail me at
skeleton_keys@hotmail.com. I don't mind newbies asking for lessons, either. I'm always willing to help whoever I can.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It's customary to provide URLs for any sites mention. I found the Lockmaster site, but was unable to find the ProLok site.
Please provide it.
Also, anything that is to be shared is to be shared here where everyone can benefit from it, not just some newbie.
[ April 08, 2002, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

ok, thanx...

Do Prolok and Lockmasters sell to non-locksmiths? I always thought they'd stick to professionals.
johnn 99 April 8th, 2002, 09:32 PM

Stanfield, I'm sorry. I have no way to post pictures etc. The book I have that shows this is called PICK GUNS Lock picking for
spies, cops, and locksmiths. By john Minnery. Maybe someone who has this book would post the plans for you. I have been
trying to find something on the web about them, with very little luck. Which is strange since they work at least as well as any of
my store bought pick guns. OK. I found you a file on how to make one, but can't seem to link to it. So try this. Do a google
search, for( LOCK CLICKER ) , click on the first hit, scroll down to file# 186 ( lockpicking using the lock clicker). I'm sorry, this
was the best that I could do for you. GOOD LUCK!
[ April 08, 2002, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: johnn 99 ]
In the upload folder of the ftp you'll find a file named snap pick.pdf
While the file John mentioned explains the thing quite nicely, this one has better pictures :)
With pickguns you need some practice to get the timing right when to apply tension.
Btw, John, one thing, it's much more convenient if you just copy the link of the file and paste it into your post. Like this:
<a href="http://www.frukt.org/TP44/fileareas/uXu/UXU-186.TXT" target="_blank">http://www.frukt.org/TP44/fileareas/uXu/
UXU-186.TXT</a>
And I still like my Majestic pick gun better, it looks cooler :cool:
johnn 99 April 9th, 2002, 09:37 AM

Yea, I like my pickgun to. For exactly the same reason, I also have a delco electric pick gun. But I shure enjoy the looks on
ppls face when they realize that you can stroll right into their house with this gizmo you made from a coathanger. I will try that
next time, Machiavelli. Unfortunately, I'm pretty computer illiterate, and this machine may as well use vacume tubes! Anyway,
THANKS! P.S. Why won't my user name and password get me into the PDF?
[ April 09, 2002, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: johnn 99 ]

If you can't get into the pdf, you might want to try to access the ftp :D
Pw und user are the same for all members, everything you need to know about the ftp can be found here:
<a href="http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000003;p=1" target="_blank">http://
www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000003;p=1</a>
AfterRain April 9th, 2002, 12:19 PM

iight, last night i hit up a lock smith truch and i got alot of picks, a hand drill,screw driver set,wire striper,shit i forget what
eles... but hey fuck payin' for some shit :p ...so im set on picks for a while... now just gota do some research on lock pickin...
o yea, i get pics up (if i can find my camera) of the shit i got... :cool:
skeleton_keys April 10th, 2002, 12:26 AM

Sorry about the lack of linkage, there. . .
<a href="http://www.pro-lok.com" target="_blank">www.pro-lok.com</a>

<a href="http://www.lockmasters.com" target="_blank">www.lockmasters.com</a>
And yes, Lockmasters does sell to non-locksmiths. The only catch is, you have to make up a name for your "locksmith
company". They have a catalog request form online, and I've never needed to provide any kind of verification of my status to
them. Don't go nuts, though. . .use it wisely, or you may spoil one of the best dang tool sources for people who actually need
them.
Another good source for locksmithing info would be to sign up at <a href="http://www.locksmith.com,"
target="_blank">www.locksmith.com,</a> claiming you're a locksmith or student. They answer questions pretty readily, but can
spot a crook or an amateur trying to scrape for info a mile away. So learn some of the lingo, and sound professional if you
decide to post there. Don't ask "teech me to pick lox, pleez", or you'll be banned.
And I'll freely share what I know with anyone who is interested, but from experience, I can tell you that what I know about B&E
so far takes up 116 pages (double-spaced) in 12 pt. Times New Roman. My book may hit the market soon. (Really! :) So if
anyone wants to know anything specific, I'll be more than happy to help. But to spill my guts about everything I know in one
post would probably destroy my hands from the sheer typing cramps. I know you're trying to keep it an open forum where
everyone shares, it's just not practical for me to type that much all at once. So we cool?
nbk2000 April 10th, 2002, 12:54 AM

We cool.
Naturally you'll inform us of the book when it's published?
You also know that we place copies of our files on the FTP, correct?
That's where my book is.
And don't worry about losing money. It's not like everyone who'd buy your book is a member of the Forum, so you'll still have
plenty of people buying it.
Jack Ruby April 10th, 2002, 03:49 AM

I just took apart the mech ina lock. It had 5 pins I droped it down to 2. I will then gradually work up to five.
It just makes it seem a little more rewarding and also easier so I don't get frustrarted right off the bat and say fuck it.
I am figuring out the best way to *pop* the last pin.
nbk2000 April 10th, 2002, 04:21 AM

When using a lifter pick, you don't want to have any particular order (IE: front to back) since the pins will bind in different order
for every lock, depending on their tolerances.
I would apply some tension then use the feeler to determine which pin had the most resistance to my probing. That would be
the first pin I'd work on. Once it cleared the shear line, I'd repeat with each of the other pins, finding the next one bound.
Repeat as needed till the last pin.
Lube generously with WD-40. Some prefer to poke the hole dry, but I like it wet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> :D
Jack Ruby April 10th, 2002, 07:22 PM

Well I have been able to sucessfully pick the Lock with 4 pins in it repeatedly.
I have notice something odd. The pins al go up really easily except for one near the back. It seems in hind sight that
*popping* that pin was the problem all along.
I am right now putting the lock back together with all of the pins in the orignal spots.
And you know what else... The lock still works.
Zach April 10th, 2002, 07:36 PM

jack, what kind of lock assembly did you buy? Machiavelli, do you have a scanner? I would really appreciate a close-up (not
too close) scan of your lock pick(s). having a larger image to look at helps when you gotta grind your own.
z
[edit: i make my lockpicks out of street sweeper bristles, for those who cant (or wont) buy from a supplier)
[ April 11, 2002, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Zach ]
Jack Ruby April 10th, 2002, 09:30 PM

Pin Tumbler style. It is a actual DeadBolt Mech.
It works great
mark April 24th, 2002, 08:20 PM

Hey, if ou were new to lock picking, and you wanted to open basic, cheap locks, what tools would you sugest? The cheap, $14
4 pick set w/book, or the $44 pick gun? Or something home made? I want something fairly simple to use.

Get the 4 pick set. These are all the pick you'll need in the beginning. They don't have plated handles so you might want to
put heat shrink tubing over the ends. Also these sets usually don't have enough tension wrenches so you should make some
of these yourself.
Pick guns are a nice toy but you should learn to pick properly before fucking around with them.
And if you want to go via homemade, take a look at the southord site, they have pictures of all their picks online so it's easy
to copy them :D
But about wanting something simple to use, if you don't practice you won't do shit, it's the person that opens the lock, not the
tool.
Tyler_Durden April 25th, 2002, 02:11 PM

What about raking?
Could someone briefly explain the technique?
It is my understanding that it is an action that provides similar results as a pick gun... and you stick the rake in, yank it out
and turn, and hope the pins line up. Sounds like a fast method, but how often does it work, if at all?
I think I am going to get one of those cheap 5-piece ones to learn. I have done some on my own w/ improv picks, but
nothing serious. I can never pick effectively/consistently/quickly with my homemade picks.
mark April 25th, 2002, 08:17 PM

Well, I just bought my 4 peice set yesterday, and it should be ariving soon. Now the question is, what should I practice on?
Anything particularly useful to do with a lock pick? (Yeah, you could pick a lock. :rolleyes: NBK)
[ April 30, 2002, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
drstrangelove April 26th, 2002, 06:28 PM

My experience with lockpicking is that all house locks are easy because usually there just the usual pin tumblers.
Has anyone had any luck picking late at night under presure with poor light and a unknown lock?
It is very easy to get to know a lock that you have around the house or bought and you quickly learn the touch required for
that lock but other locks that are in poor condition and that you have not tried before are very difficult.
Now Australia is a country of thieves and all of our shops have heavy duty locks. The profile is so jagged and the angle so
sharp that you cannot even get a pick in the lock, worse still is what they call the "bi loc" this has two sets of pins so you would
need 2 picks at once. So buying picks to be a master criminal is just deluding yourself unless you want to stick to houses.
mark April 28th, 2002, 12:01 AM

But for those of us who are not criminals at all, just bored hooligans, they should be more than adequite.
markkx April 28th, 2002, 03:10 AM

<a href="http://www.advsecurity.com/picks.htm" target="_blank">http://www.advsecurity.com/picks.htm</a> sells the
cheapest lock pick sets and books and stuff i've come across even cheaper than southord. they also take paypal so thats
great
drstrangelove April 30th, 2002, 03:30 AM

Good fun no doubt!
I had great fun learning.
I felt cheated when I found out the locks I wanted to pick were unpickable and a waste of time and energy and was ten times
easier to smash my way in just like always.
green beret May 1st, 2002, 06:15 AM

Hehe, bored hooligans, that brings back memories.
Yeah thats true strangelove, you can get to know a lock in your house or whatever, but picking a different lock in the field can
be quite difficult.
Water treatment plants are a good place for real training, they have locks and alarm systems, but no-one really gives a fuck
when the alarm goes off, this gives you a chance to get away, but also gives you the chance to get a feel for real locks, doors,
alarms and security measures.
They also have some useful chems and equipment there, I recommend it for the beginner wanting to put his theory into
practice, or anyone........
[ May 01, 2002, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: green beret ]
A-BOMB May 1st, 2002, 10:44 AM

Why pick the lock on a water treatment plant when you can just cut through the wall(well in my area the plant just has a a brick
wall about 3 feet tall around the base of the plant with thin coragated steel sheets on steel I beams and there held on with
just some bolts so I just cut the heads off the bolt and soldered the head of the bolts onto the steel so it looks normal except
for a bolt that I drilled out and retaped so tha bolt in the center holds on the coragated steel sheet on. So when I want in I
just remove the bolt and pull the sheet off and in I go one of the best things I found in there was a articulated snake camera
on a pole so you can look into pipes to bad I couldn't remove it the monitor from which it is permaly connected :( was way to
big to heave back to me house at 2 in the morning.
AfterRain May 1st, 2002, 02:42 PM

I have a question, The bolt on a lock (deadbolt) what type of metal is it made out of? And what type of saw would you need to
cut it? 1 more question, you know then bolts on store doors such as 7-11 , the bolt that flips up out of the side of the door,
what would be a good saw to cut this type of metal. ? O yea, all these saws must be manual powered, for the less noise.
thanks again
A-BOMB May 1st, 2002, 02:54 PM

Well AfterRain the bolts at a 7-11 or that like are made of 5 or 6 hard steel plates rivited together so that when you think you
cut throught it there 2-3 still left to hold the door shut and I would use a gas powered masondary saw with a grinding cutoff
wheel or a 18-24volt battery opperated reciprcating saw.
mark May 1st, 2002, 08:34 PM

Id just pay the $1.11 for my big gulp.
Wicked May 1st, 2002, 08:54 PM

I'd just blow out the door and walk on in, or even melt the bolt itself (fire will ocurr probobly heh), I mean, it would be the
more fun idea.
Anthony May 2nd, 2002, 09:33 AM

You seem to misunderstand the purpose of discrete entry, Wicked.
Why would fire occur? Then again, maybe it would if you were trying to blast your way in with plaster+gasoline :rolleyes:
Lastly, B&E, most likely followed by burglary/theft isn't usally done for fun, so practical/workable solutions are usually
preferred.
drstrangelove May 2nd, 2002, 05:53 PM

Over here the doors are secured by the normal locks but the door inside frame has spoon shaped bars usually around three,
these are defeated by putting your jemmy bar in between the 2 doors to get a gap with your co offender forcing down all the
spoons and then the door should spring open.
drstrangelove May 2nd, 2002, 06:02 PM

Something funny I just saw on the news was these guys have stolen a 11 ton truck ram raided the serice station chained up
the ATM and drove off the funny part is the thing caught fire and the money was lost.The police even thought it was funny!
Another unusual robbery in my area was someone vandilized a ATM when the service guy showed up he was ambushed shot in
the leg and forced to open to ATM.
How much do the think one off those ATMs would weigh?
I know they installed them with a big truck with a crane attachment so I doubt if even 4 people working together could lift one.
Anthony May 2nd, 2002, 08:09 PM

Try this thread:
<a href="http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001111" target="_blank">http://

www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001111</a>
There's a post by mrloud having observed the installation of an ATM, with it being filled lead bricks once in position.
green beret May 2nd, 2002, 09:48 PM

Sorry, I know this is getting a bit off topic...
A-bomb are you in Australia? Have you ever found any H202 in the plants? I have yet to find any but I still havent done a full
search....
I know that there is almost always heaps of granular Chlorine. I have also found many other useful things. Email me if wish.
mark May 3rd, 2002, 01:33 AM

My lock picks showed up today! Its so much fun! I can pick the lock on my husky safe, the trigger lock ive had lying around,
and the cheap ace hardware padlock I bought. One question that still remains is, what the hell does the double ball pick good
for? Also, does anyone lese know some fun locks to practice on?
jelly May 5th, 2002, 06:13 PM

mark... the double-ball pick is used for raking double-wafer cylinder locks (by sliding it in and out).
mark May 5th, 2002, 08:48 PM

Ah, thank you. I also was mistaken in my description of the pick. Its a single ball pick. Also, does anyone know what pick is
best for opening master padlocks? I can open their trigger locks, but ive only opened the padlock once with pure luck.

A-Bomb,
Im tryin' to get my hands on a 18-24volt battery opperated reciprcating saw , but what type of blade would i need to get off
the 7-11 bolts or a dead bolt lock ?
Could you use a burn bar to put a whole in the Key way and then by doin' that would you be able to onen the lock ? But if ya
did this would the get rid of the driver pins? so that there either above the sheer line, or would that just cut the driver pins
down , that rest of the driver pin would just drop on to of the key pins but it would be below the sheerline?
I saw this movie once where this dude where he put this metal cover on this lock, then he had drilled out the sheer line.. Does
anyone know where to get something like this at? Thats all for now.. Thanks alot
A-BOMB May 7th, 2002, 03:41 PM

Green Beret I'm in the USA in Pennslsyvain area. And just use what ever metal blade you can get your hands on. And a better
idea if you need cash, pour some gas under the door of those store+gaspump places and run it back close to the pump so it
looks like some gas got on some one and it go tracked into the store, now light. And break a window and get in and steal the
cash and let the store burn and they will never look for you if you did it right because it will look like the fire broke the window,
and burn up the cash register making it look like all the cash was burn up, and no one was there.
[ May 07, 2002, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: A-BOMB ]
Wicked May 7th, 2002, 04:43 PM

There would be ashs and shit, it would look EXACTLY like someone tryed to cover there tracks :p

A-Bomb im in tha pa area too. Philly Right here...
But last night i tryed to hit up this one place i cut the fone wire, then i triped the alarm, and cops (undercover) still came tho,
ANYONE HAVE ANY INFO ON ALARMS? so i was like screw that i cant get in now, so i started to throw rocks at them, i hit the one
car i think... but.... o well... Thanks bout that blade thing, But you know of like a cover you put of a lock and that helps you
drill out the sheer line? peace
James May 8th, 2002, 04:28 PM

I think that they could tell if a window was broken by a fire (not too likely I think) or if it were broken by some 'punk kid'
standing outside.

Does anyone know where to get safe drill plans for a York Safe? Once i get money im goin' to buy some books from
LOCKMASTERS then i'll scan them and get that shit up on the net.. But Im workin' to get that money so i can.

Safe cracking is a very hard trade to get good at.
Safes look alot easyer to get into from a distance but once you have a closer look you will find its not childs play.
I have many horror storys about attempted entry to safes.
If your really serious you should buy a QUALITY safe and see how easy it is to gain entry.
So very very noisey and hard physical work to and the constent threat of police its not easy.

Hmm, getting into the place is the easy part, its getting out in time/not gettin caught thats hard.
mark May 12th, 2002, 12:32 AM

Does anyone have any tips for opening master locks? Im having some trouble opening them in like under 3 mins.
Zach May 12th, 2002, 12:45 AM

bolt cutters, mark <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

drstrangelove , drop me a line at im me at r69o420b187 (dats aim) , but i want to talk to you bout safe crackin', IF not, What
have ya herd about it, have you tryed it? no where i can get info on how to get in, such as drillin' , tryin' to get the comb, or
got me.... But lets talk bout this...
P.S - HAS ANYONE SEEN GreenBeret around ? if ya around hit me up dawg
Wicked May 12th, 2002, 02:11 AM

I know about safe cracking, and i know about opening master locks, i just forced em open with some gunpowder, once i uesd
some ap my friend gave me.

yo wicked, drop me a line rob600s180@aol.com , let me know what you got on safe's. i need to know cuz im workin' on this
project and theres safe there...BUt this is what i know so far, that you can drill the door on the safe and use a borscope to see
the bar drop in when you spin the dial , then once you got all 3 lined up then you can unlock it .

I wish I had the answer! I would be a rich man!
The first thing you need is QUALITY tools, cheap tools bend, break and are not worth shit especially drills.
You might think drilling for the wheel pack will be just like movies-its not.
Ive never got in a safe by useing any method from any book they just wasted my time.
The best way is pratice on real safe that will teach you more that any book or anything I say.
Good luck

Well Dr, How have you gotten in ? if i cant drill it, i want to just cut holes it with wit a burn bar or oxyacetyne torch, Any one
know of anything eles that could eat thro the metal in a good amount of time?

It really depends on how big the fucker is.
Is it a floor safe?
Can it be moved?
How much does it weigh?
How thick to you think the door and walls are?
If its a floor safe your in luck as these are piss weak, just smash the door with a sledge hammer untill it buckles.
Is its not over the size of a TV hacksaw off the hinges and pry the door open.
If its cheap model you can peel the bastard, get a cold chizel and make a hole and keep enlarging it untill the peel the metal
off then smash the concrete out the peel the inside metal (very soft)and grab the loot.
If its a good model fuck knows.. I have had problems every time ive tryed a proper security safe.
I think the best option for a high security safe is the spend your time moving it somewhere where you can be free to work on
the bitch untill she yields.
The bolts that hold safes to the ground are easy to pry up the main proplem is getting the cunt off the ground out of the shop
and into the car without anyone seeing-a tough ask.
If possible put it on a blacket and attemp to drag it.
Every week people are ripping off huge safes so its deffinatly possible. I think even more important than all the planning is
having the guts to get in there and do what has to be done.
PYRO500 May 13th, 2002, 10:49 PM

if you can fill it with water you are left with two options, the first is you can try to blast it open, anything that is sensitive will be
crushed by the shockwaves carried by the water. the second is an oxy acetylene cutting torch, slightly less portable but will cut
through damn near anything.

Yea you can move the safe, it's on a set of wheels nows, both safes are.uhm not sure how muchbut i would say like 100+lbs?
!?!? now on the thinkness , i could not say, i've not seen it open, so...dont know there, But your sayin' the best way prob is to
either a cut the hinges or just cut a whole in it? why can i drill it, and use a borescope ? to see the lock rings?
Forgot to add : Well yea i just got 2 books , one is Practical Course in Modern Locksmithing, I've read some things , its ok,
and my other book is Locksmithing by Bill Phillips , A very good book, its 500ish pages thats the only problem i have wit it but,
very worth it,this book pretty much has it all,$35. why pay that price for that book when I went to the libiary and got them for
free, with no return date :) but yea check that last book out :cool: :) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
W_S May 14th, 2002, 07:24 PM

ok, i downloaded the 'impeovised lockpicking for police' and read the part about grinding your own picks out of spring steel.
dose anyone think it would work with grinding down a hacksaw blade being that these are very cheap and seem strong.

Go for it! :D
There is nothing wrong with the drill method. I personally tried to drill for the locking cam as suggested in techniques of
safecracking book and all that happened was I had a safe looking like swiss cheese but no cash.
I think the hardest part would be drilling a accurate hole.
Also if you have never opened a safe before with that technique it might not be as easy as you think.
On wheels :D Its yours.
I took one on wheels once, it was great fun not much money though.
mark May 14th, 2002, 11:51 PM

My new pick set arrived today! Although some of the picks are ultiples, it does include this cool pick that has like 7 ridges on 1
side that opens up my master locks in like 3 seconds! Now, to practice on shlage(sp?) and kwikset door locks. Is there any
particular trick or pick useful on those?
Energy84 May 15th, 2002, 01:04 AM

I made my own pickset out of hacksaw blades but the bitches were too weak. They bent wayy to easily. For my next set, I'm
probably just going to try grinding down some files.
As for safecracking, I just had an idea. What if you were to go at it with a thermic lance but not actually try to cut through but
rather get it as hot as possible and then throw a few buckets of water on it to cool it down as fast as possible. This should
make the steel very brittle and you could probably crack it with a sludge hammer.
Another idea would be to make a hole in the safe with your thermic lance and just fill the fucker up with water. If the walls are
really thick, you might get lucky enough to be able to crack the walls by heating the outside while the inside stays cool. But on
the other hand, if the lance goes through and boils the water, you might have a nasty explosion due to the water turning to
steam.
Also, if you can get a thermic torch in there, I'm sure you could bring in an acetelyne tank too. Just fill with gas and get the
hell out. I'm sure you could work out the details of detonating the bitch. If it works too well though, you might lose someof
your loot in the fire.
I hope some of this makes sense to somebody as I'm half asleep right now :o
vulture May 15th, 2002, 09:29 AM

What metals are most safes made of? This way i could devise a method of silent chemical attack.... <img border="0" title=""

See im not down with the whole blowin' the safe up, cuz there are a strip row of house's right behind this place, the quiter the
better, so i think im goin' to go with cuttin' a hole big enough to stick both my hands in to grab shit and then im out. I plan on
cuttin' a square about 1ftx1ft . so i punch (with the lance) 4 holes for all the corners then and every .5 inche drill a hole, then
just hit the box wit a sledge hammer, would that work by pushin' the square in? <img src="http://members.aol.com/
~rob600s180/safe.bmp" alt="" /> Also wouldn't it also be fast then cuttin' thro the whole area?

I think you will run into problems with drilling or burning a series of holes.
The first layer is metal for a bit then thick concrete with chunks of drill destroying material the the inner layer.
Give it a test shot on a bit of BBQ plate and you will see what I mean.
Anthony May 15th, 2002, 08:05 PM

Drilling that amount of holes in just plain, thick steel would take quite some time. Concrete wouldn't be a problem for a
thermic lance or an oxy-acetylene torch, IIRC it's melting point is below 1000*C, I've melted it myself before and I'd say it
was easier than mild steel. The drill destroying material might be ceramic chips mixed in with the concrete? If so they should
just flow out with the slag. If it's a solid sheet then expose it and smash it?
SATANIC May 15th, 2002, 08:53 PM

If you could et one hole in it, then rather than trying to 'explode' it with steam or whatever, try to freeze it. If you lived in a
cold area that would be no problem.
The power of water->ice will force anything! even if it doesn't crack open, it will at least buckle / weaken it.
Failing that, fill it with water, then blow it.
This is actually a technique they use to extract unused explosive from old artillery shells. Fill all the spare space in the shell
with water, then detonate a small charge, enough to 'fracture' any explosive in the shell.
Because of the water, the shockwave will not propogate through.

If they can safely get high explosives out using it, then it should be gentle enough to get out the contents of a safe. (good for
diamond, precious metals etc..) Unfortunately, those of you that live in areas using paper money would have problems....

a few things:Does any one have any safe drillin' plans?Anyone know of any lock smith warehouse's in phila?and where can i
get an oxy/lance torch at?thanks
mark May 16th, 2002, 07:53 PM

A pair of bolt cutters and a car will yeild you the torch. Just drive down to the nearest large construction sight(there should be
plenty in philly) and steel one from there. Theyre always there, make sure to grab both bottles. Get someone to help you, as
I assume the bottles are heavy. Although I beleive stealing is usualy wrong, these guys are city funded and it wont take them
more than an hour to get a new one, and how often do they realy need to weld after all?
But, I dont realy see the point in oxy torching the fucker. This is your first safe, and the likley hood of your baking all the
money/narcotics/jewlery inside is quite high. The torch is doing 6000 degrees afterall, and paper goes at 451. Id just take the
safe with you and bash it open with a sledge hammer at home.

If your not going to try to move it first thing to do is grab the door handle on the safe and give a shake and see how close the
door fits on the body of the safe. The more room for tools the better.
If the screwdrivers and prybars break or bend and sparks come off the safe door and its not opening or spliting its not likely
your going to get in that way.
If you use to oxy torch or lance beware of smoke alarms and all the smoke, make sure you fill it with water.
Most safes are key and combo so even if you beat the wheelpack with the drill there is still the key lock.
PYRO500 May 17th, 2002, 12:33 AM

Also be careful with certain kinds of safes, especially ver expensive ones, some of the larger ones have tempered glass
backings (very common on bank vault doors, and if they are forced the glass will shatter releasing a ton of springloaded pins
that will make sure you will have to cut every squaer inch of the door off to get it to open.
frog_croak October 15th, 2003, 02:51 AM

I need a second opinion on a hypothetical (of course) situation
there is a hypothetical old school ATM that is being filled within the week and there is nothing but two tubular locks in between
my hypothetical thief and a lot of money.
Disregard entry, exit, surveillance, and security of the building it's in.
(I would never have posted this had I any prior knowledge about tubular locks, sadly my experience has been limited to
norm al pick ing, tu bular locks n ever interested me until now.) :D
Since he naturally wants maximum befits, he has little time to prepare and has no fancy equipment.
What my hypothetical thief needs is a moderately fast and quiet method to bypass these two locks.
what do you think?
Anthony October 15th, 2003, 03:06 PM

"he has little time to prepare and has no fancy equipment."
Poor planning leads to poor performance!
You should also be prepared to invest in equipment, IIRC the RTPBs recommend you invest at least 10% of your expected
booty.
I think you're probably asking for some magical "thing" which does not exist.
silentfootsteps October 18th, 2003, 06:19 PM

what do you think of the Peterson Pro-1?
http://www.lockpicks.com/product.asp?0=206&1=220&3=46
Adept October 21st, 2003, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by frog_croak
What my hypothetical thief needs is a moderately fast and quiet method to bypass these two locks.
what do you think?
He should try doing just that. Bypass them. Does the target room have any windows, or other modes of entry? How concerned
with evidence is he? For example, can a sledge hammer be used to simply bash the doors in question off their hinges?
Does he have access to a cutting torch able to burn the lock out of the door?
Would it be easier for him to simply obtain a copy of the key, than try and destroy/pick the lock?
The locks in question are the problem. Dont focus on the problem, focus on the solution.
PHAID November 12th, 2003, 08:08 PM

If the tubular locks in question are of the ace style you need to check for what kind it is.
They come in 3 sizes and several pin configurations.
The "standard" tubular lock is the 7 pin ace lock, this is the most common you will find.
There is also 8 and 10 pin locks as well as offset pins.
Picks usualy run you around $60 and up and are not hard to use, just dont get into the mindset that its like TV and the
movies. You do get some that will pick quite fast but most will take you a few min. or more to open.
You can also get the special bits made for drilling those locks but then you have the issue of noise.
If you have an interest on the subject just let me know what your looking for or what information you need and ill be happy to
help.
Anthony November 20th, 2003, 03:42 PM

I'm wondering if a pickgun would be effective against the locks found in car wheel clamps (US: boots?). It's perfectly legal to
remove a private wheel clamp from your car (If the council/city put it on you can't), the only thing you can be done for is
criminal damage to the clamp.
I don't give a shit about criminal damage and by-and-large, neither to the police. However, it's not convinent to keep petrol
powered cutting tools in your car (if you have them at all). But a pickgun is, and would be comparatively cheap.
I know it's a vague question, but there's a chance someone will know...

It depends on what lock the particular clamp has.
Pickguns work well on pin tumbler locks but are worthless against wafer locks.
Odds are that the clamps will either be keyed alike or will have a master system to cut down on the number of keys they have
to deal with, so if you can get one you can fit a key to it and try it on others.
Personaly i think your best bet would be a cordless drill.

Most things like the clamps use cam-locks so all you need to do is drill strait through to disengage the tailpiece.
With a good sharp bit you can drill it much faster than you could ever pick it.
Knuckles666 December 14th, 2003, 04:31 PM

Don't know if anyone's seen this site in the UK or elsewhere, but they have a huge selection of picks and alsorts of gadgets. I
ordered a basic SouthOrd pickset and found my own techniques within minutes (the best thing to do). The company itself is
very good, polite and quick delivery. Oh yeah, before I forget, the site! www.topsecretmagic.co.uk
zeke79 December 17th, 2003, 09:26 AM

First of all, what kind of safe are you working with. 90% of your better quality floor safes will do a very good job of resisting
brute force attacks. Do some research before you go bashing the safe in with a hammer as suggested above as alot of bigger
floor safes today employ glass relockers. I am not going into depth on these but if you break them the locking bars fall in the
door and your very limited on options at that point. As far as drilling goes there are usually one or two hardplates surrounding
the lock. Alot of safes you will run into will have ball bearings between these plates so if you do happen to get through the first
plate, the bearings will give just enough to allow your drill bit to slide in before breaking it off. Safe cracking and bypassing
takes alot of research and study. My suggestion to you is that if it is not a brinks or other wal mart brand safe walk away and
find an easier target. If you can carry the safe, take it somewhere you can safely work on it(NOT YOUR HOME). If you are still
interested in learning how I would pick up the book Locks Safes and Security. It is around 1400 pages and costs around
235.00 shipped to your door. I would also recommend finding a drill point locator. You can download one here http://
www.lockmasters.com/download/download.html. Good Luck!
steyr December 23rd, 2003, 09:19 AM

Maybe someone has drawings or howto's or anything ;D about making pick gun? I can't buy anything like that in my country...
grrr... As I see, pick gun is some metal and spring that shakes the pick?

Thanks PHAID. I had a look on google and it seems that most wheel clamps can be removed simply with brute force and/or
basic tools such as a wheel brace.
I've heard of people improvising a pick gun with a pick and an electric toothbrush. Don't recall how effective they are though.
DimmuJesus January 7th, 2004, 10:19 AM

Lockpicking can be a fun thing to learn. I myself am dabbling a bit into it just in case it comes in handy someday. I'm only
good enough at it to pick like basic door locks and padlocks, but getting better. It's amazing how much easier it is becoming
to find information on lockpicking and locksmithing. With locksmithing being the trade that it is, it has usually been difficult to
get your hands on the "trade secrets" without being a locksmith by profession.
This brings a point. For those who are really interested in mastering locksmithing, one of the best ways to do it would be to
invest some money into one of those correspondance courses offered by many places. Most of them will send you tools, key
blanks, even a key machine. For under a $1000 you can just about master the trade. But it's all in practice and experience.
One final note-just because one has an interest in this trade does not make him a criminal! Just like with all knowledge it's
how you use it.
Hang-Man January 7th, 2004, 06:11 PM

One final note-just because one has an interest in this trade does not make him a criminal!
One Starting note- nobody on this forum gives a shit if you're a criminal.
If you are interested in lock picking buy a good 8-12 pick set off the net, (there must be a good 4-5 sites that do, I got mine
from www.lockpicks.com) then go to a hardware store and buy 6 pin tumblers. Take them apart and put them back together
with one pin in the first, two in the second, three in the third, and so on. You should be able to figure it out faster than you
think. Signing up for a course would be a hurting waste of money.
PHAID January 7th, 2004, 07:29 PM

Those courses are good to show the basics but dont even come close to teaching you the trade.
I dabbled in locksmithing for many years and found out quickly working as a locksmith that there is more to learn each day.
If you check your local locksmiths most will be for one thing or the other it is rare to find ones who do it all.
tom haggen January 9th, 2004, 12:08 AM

Heres a pdf that contains a book on lock picking. I found it to be somewhat useful for info on picking wafer locks. I already
knew how to pick pin tumbler locks before I read this book. If I hadn't then I probably would have learned a lot more from this
book. Hopefully I can get it to upload
static_firefly January 9th, 2004, 10:35 AM

I work at a place with a safe and its been attacked a few times. Only one has worked. The safe has cuts and dings in it where
people have tryed to cut the door off and such but its very heavly armoured. Its flaw is that you can deposite money in
through a little drawer that slides in and opens to the inside. The guys rocked up when the first staff arived (it looks like they
did there homework) beat them up and gaged them then they used fishing like and a hook which they droped in the chute
and shook around. They managed to snag the plastic bags and pull them back through the chute. Out of 80 or so bags only 5
were left and the fellers walked away with an easy 3,000. Never caught. The whole operation took 40min.

Must have been a cheap safe or they had inside help.
Any decent drop safe has either a 1 way door to the slot or has teeth at the bottom edge to keep you from fishing anything
out.
Jacks Complete January 9th, 2004, 08:02 PM

A rather neat trick with those deposit safes is to drop a long thin bag inside another long thin bag, with a weight. This simply
lets you pull the inner bag out after someone else fills it up, and the outer bag gets stuck to the teeth, but you don't care
about that! It works for "one-way" doors, too, as it holds them nicely open, and you can pull really hard on a canvas bag.
As for safe cracking the "easy" way, well, they try to remove the options! If it is a modern safe, I suggest you forget it. I do
have one idea, and I will have a search and see if anyone has posted about it.
A clever way to get past the circular "coke machine" type locks is to make or buy a circular lock pick. They can be bought for
some money, from $60 to $120, but they let you take the readings and make a key from them! This would let you do the
bulk of the work at your leisure, at home, having taken the readings off the locks, making the keys, then you wait for the
delivery and go and empty it.
There is another thread on the possible ways to steal the whole machine, too.
I heard about one safe that got stolen, despite police patrols every 15 minutes. Seems they ripped it off the wall and dragged
it away. The guy who installed it said it was a bitch, as it was too heavy for two men, and in a cramped space, so full, it must
have weighed a hell of a lot (I know roughly what was in it), and it would have taken four men. They stole the wife's car to
take it away! The cops found it down by a river nearby, with the whole back sliced off it with a petrol (stil or stihl {sp? it is the
make, and is pronouced very like"steel"}) saw with a diamond blade. Needless to say, the contents were long gone.
akinrog January 16th, 2004, 09:14 AM

I posted this message to this forum previously but I cannot find it for some reason (a bug?).
As for breaking open a safe, you may use a CO2 laser to slice it like a chees. On internet I saw several homemade lasers
which can be feasible made at home. As an alternative, you may cryoscopcally freeze the metals down to -150 or below by
means of liquid nitrogen (or liquid air?). But gaining access to and storing nitrogen (LO) may be problematic.
----------------------------
You couldn't find your message because newbies' posts are subject to moderation and have to be approved before they
appear. The message which appears after you submit your posts tells you about this.
Rhadon
nbk2000 January 16th, 2004, 05:10 PM

"Stihl" is correct.
I was at a locksmiths recently looking for some safes to photograph, but the store was a lot smaller than expected, and didn't
have much of anything to look at. :(
Since I was there, I asked them if they had any old Medeco, Kaba, Assa-abloy, DOM, etc cylinders that'd they'd be willing to
sell as scrap.
This brought on a whole spiel about "We return all those to the manufacturers (which I know is a lie) because of security, key
control, criminals learning how they work, blah blah blah.....".
In other words, security through obscurity.
I asked if they had any to sell, brand new. Jeez, big surprise, they did. :rolleyes:
I asked them why it was more secure to send back an empty cylinder that obviously didn't work and had parts missing when
they'd sell brand-new ones that worked with all the parts intact, if they're so concerned about "criminals" not learning how the
locks worked, as if the smart criminals didn't already know.
(Silence)
Followed by yelling about "Get the fuck out of my store you criminal scumbag blah blah blah!"
Sad that locksmiths still believe that they can keep their trade secrets a secret now that this new fad called "The Internet" is
around. :rolleyes:
Anyways, I just wanted the cylinders to test how well tiny SC's worked in penetrating through the shear line on these hardened-
steel "high-security" cylinders. Guess I'll just buy them off of e-bay. :p

nbk2000 actually the majority of the locks you mention are made of brass with a few hardened-steel pins inserted in the
common drill points.
I have the schematics for most and can probably find the rest if you have a need for them.
powdermunkey January 29th, 2004, 01:04 PM

Has anyone here used the fiber pick that looks like a little tiny toothbrush? What's a good way to attach the pick arm to a
homemade clothsehanger pick gun? mine end up too loose to last- I've never been able to get a lock to open with the pick
gun, while using a simple pick is usually successful.
Ropik April 30th, 2004, 09:36 AM

I have one big question, sorry if it sounds newbish:
Has anyone plans(direct photos/ blueprints etc.) of jiggler keys, also known as try-out keys? It seems that on net are +- two
pictures, copied from one page to another, but I was not able to find any plans. Skeleton keys plans are findable, but
jigglers... It another task. Much more tough.
Thank in advance
Phaid69 April 30th, 2004, 06:49 PM

Do you mean regular jiggler keys or are you refering to tryout keys for autos?
Ropik May 2nd, 2004, 10:00 AM

Regular jigglers, but even these CAN be used for opening automobiles, I hear and read(I cannot try because I am trying to
obtain their exact shapes and dimensions to make them).
If somebody have jigglers: please sacrifice few minutes to lay them on some flat thing like table and take a picture of them.
Measure one dimension(lenght for example) and send me the picture(with the dimension, if possible :) ) or post it here.
You will make me full of joy.
Phaid69 May 2nd, 2004, 02:07 PM

I will get a pic for you but honestly they are not used often by locksmiths.
Your best bet is a set of picks and to practice with them.
Ropik May 3rd, 2004, 05:04 AM

I will be thankful for picture... However, I had set of jigglers(I lost it during moving to new territory) and I have some great
successes with them - mainly on larger padlocks they worked like charm.
I did not try them on cars, but even some cheaper pin and wafer tumblers were defeated with them.
EDIT: Also, I need help with one type of padlock. Obviously it is a variation on warded lock, but there are few wards and many
very thin discs that must be turned and aligned to open this lock. Beside cratermaker and crowbar it seems to be practically
unpickable for me.
Jacks Complete May 6th, 2004, 01:32 PM

Dammit... Lost my post to the forum software again! The lack of the back button capability is so annoying - something
overwrites the page and when you go back the post is gone...
Right, try again.
I have been working on a Thompson's Arms Chest, which is a really big green locking steel box for keeping guns in. The army
used to use them, but they have, as far as I know, all been pulled from service now. The locks on mine are dated after 1963,
as I found the BSI kitemark label on them, but before 1980, which was the first revision (does anyone have a copy of the
1963 version? I can't find it anywhere) after a few hours of carefully cutting them out.
The reason they have all been pulled is because the locks are tamper-proof, and very hard to get out, even with a really good
cutter, a cold chisel, and lots of time. Of course, to roughly chop them out would have taken ten minutes, but I am intent on
replacing them with modern mortice locks. The reason they need replacing is because they have been over-taken by
technology! 40 odd years ago, these locks would have been impossible to get past. They use a very clever key, which looks a
lot like a modern tubular lock as modelled on a coke machine, except in minature. How small? Try 5 to 8 mm! The key is a
tube with slots cut in the end, and a small tooth that actually throws the bolt, and the locks are deep behind a good thick steel
plate. The flaw, of course, is that a modern drill with a good drill bit will trash the pins in seconds and let you in.
Anyway, if anyone has any idea about this type of lock, what it is called, or anything else, please post. Google returns nothing
at all on the Thompson's Arms Chest, either, so any more info on them would be good too.

Ropik,
I (think) know the type of padlock you mean. I have a lock like that, and they are used in high security places quite a lot.
Have you seen the key? Is it like a metal rod with a flat side, then notches cut into it? If so, it is the same.
I haven't worked out how to pick it yet, as it is self-warding, and the "spare" discs rotate at the same time as the "locking"
discs. I can't take it apart, either. It looks like it is really simple, but it isn't. I think a set of picks that were set at different
depths, which could all be rotated independently, would work, but it will mean making a jig. I just don't have time! I still
haven't even found my chronograph, which is in a box somewhere...
Ropik May 6th, 2004, 05:19 PM

The key is piece of thick sheet metal, with notches in it. Yes. The only way how to open it that I figured out has not too much
common with lockpicking, it's actually brute force attack. The discs are covered with some kind of thick washer, very strong, but
weakest link of the lock, because it also cover the latch. I was able to crack the washer off few days ago with well tempered
screwdriver, while I almost destroyed it too. When you can get rid of this pesky washer, you just tap the lock on your palm, all
guts inclusive latch spills out and the lock can be opened. Small lock of this type can be frequently opened with one of
standart jigglers, but big are pretty appaling.
P.S.: I hope you will find your scanner :)
Moh May 22nd, 2004, 09:16 PM

To day I made a rake pick from a "blank" key. I filed of a bit of the top to make room for a tension wrench, and carved away
every thing exept from to spikes I made on the tip. It worked nicely. A good tip if you for some reason can't get a lockpicking
set. Now I'm looking forward to my new set of picks arives. ;)
nbk2000 May 24th, 2004, 01:04 PM

http://www.stealthlocksystems.com/index_020.htm
Core drill cuts out the hardened face of an abloy lock (the kind you described), allowing the guts to be removed. :)

Abloy, yes.
Drilling the face out isn't quite picking the lock though... Not very discreet. For all the ones I've seen, you would do better to
just chop it with bolt crops, as the shackle is really very thin.
Failing that, the patent padlock remover would do the trick. Take a pipe wrench or another solid hook shaped tool, put it in the
loop of the shackle, and hit it with a heavy object (fire extingishers work well, and you tend to find them nearby) You get very
little damage a lot of the time, and you can often re-lock the padlock afterwards! Of course, if you hit it too hard, the lock
ends up as two parts.
nbk2000 May 26th, 2004, 06:02 PM

I'm not concerned with subtlties most of the time. ;) But, yes, it is possible to impression a key for abloy type locks.
"High security locks", a PDF about 5MB in size by jelly, on the FTP, details it.
WMD May 29th, 2004, 03:10 PM

Abloys can be impressioned, but I've heard that it takes very long, over an hour to get a working key. While impressioning
offers the benefit that you can go away during the process and continue impressioning sometime later and you can pass on
the finished key instead of risking your own ass for the job this amount of time is a little bit too much imho.
nk. June 3rd, 2004, 03:53 PM

[Er.... I am surprised no one has posted this(as far as I can tell by searching).]
Anyways, there is a great forum for lockpicking at:

http://www.lockpicking101.com
I learned quite a bit from there, unfortunately the more interesting methods/threads are now restricted to certain members of
the forum. I am not one of them as I have been inactive for quite sometime. If you go there, you may be able to engineer
your way into having access to the more interesting things within a few weeks.
The forum covers almost everything for beginners including ordering picks, using picks, making picks, drilling locks, techinques
for security pins, techniques for specific locks, bypassing locks, masterkeying, and almost everything else relating to
lockpicking.
Something very important to remember:

Lockpicking is not trivial after a certain point even though it is possible to pick the lock. It requires a lot of constant practice
and patience.
Big Mac July 1st, 2006, 11:37 AM

Excuse me if this comes off the wrong way, but in most cases wouldn't it be faster to just use Mr. Crowbar on doors or simply
use a battering ram they sell at Blackhawk or other military/police supply stores?
In fact, you could even buy a uniform and you and a buddy dress up as cops, anyone who walks by will assume it is police
business. You could even yell at gawkers by saying, "Get the fuck out of here before I arrest your ass for obstruction" or some
shit. Seeing as most people tend to be ignorant of the law and their rights (thanks to the current Regime, I mean
Administration.) they will probably leave you alone.
Just a thought, probably kind of dumb but something I just thought I'd throw out there. I've always heard lockpicking can take
quite a while even for professionals so I would think just demolishing a door would be faster than picking the lock. Both seem
to have their own pro's and con's. Demolishing is faster but generally noiser and more noticeable. Picking is more covert but
still time consuming and increases your chances of getting caught and cutting into your 2-5 minute run time (as we all know
you limit your raid time to 2-5 minutes or else you greatly increase losing your asshole's virginity). Anywho, I'm a newb so
please don't be too harsh.
c.Tech July 1st, 2006, 12:07 PM

Big Mac:
Yes those methods could be quite useful in the right situation, but if somebody wanted to act in stealth or needed to keep
quiet lock picking would be the preferred method.
It may also depend on the area and setting your in.
eg1. If you were in somebodys backyard trying to break into their house it would probably be safer to pick a lock which would
create minimal noise rather than kicking in their back door alerting the owners (if they are home) and neighbors.
eg2. If you were on a street at night where the odd person walks down approx. every minute its better to kick in the door than
pick the lock and let a few people see your work in progress.
If I was to do this Id use your police imitating idea just incase somebody does come by at the wrong time.
BlackFalcoN July 1st, 2006, 12:34 PM

Excuse me if this comes off the wrong way, but in most cases wouldn't it be faster to just use Mr. Crowbar on doors or simply
use a battering ram they sell at Blackhawk or other military/police supply stores?
Lockpicking is a more silent and stealthier form of entering, without leaving visible traces to the exterior of the lock and door.
Just as there are locks that can't be picked by the average lockpicker/lockpicks, there are doors/hinges/frames that are so well
armoured they can't be broken open by the average crowbar/ram/explosive charge. Sometimes, the heaviest armoured doors,
have the weakest locks on them. (or vice versa)
Say you were planning a mission that would require you to enter a building, where you have to bypass a door in order to get to
your final target. And the target will require you to be there for at least half an hour in order to complete your objective.
That would pretty much exclude breaching the door as your first choice, since by the time you complete your objective, the
place will be swarmed by security forces, police, neighbours, bystanders etc...
The aggressive nature of breaching will make mission-time a very critical factor in your approach, since the chance you are
detected by somebody is enormous.
Say you had to bypass a lock to get to some sensetive information ( your girlfriend's diary, somebodies PGP key and
passphrase, top secret NSA files, ... ).
Just the visible fact that somebody got to the information without permission, will give your target the opportunity to counter-
act, possibly rendering the aquired secret information useless.
Surreptisious entry relies on stealth & silence, where as breaching relies on dynamic entry, aggression and sheer force.
Sometimes you just can't afford to leave visible clues that somebody bypassed a door/lock without permission.
Big Mac July 10th, 2006, 01:30 AM

Ah yes, sorry I completely ignored the stealth application. However with that stealth you sacrifice speed. Though as you guys
have pointed out, sometimes you have no other alternative. Then again the option I presented comes on a slippery slope.
Usually when cops are breaking into a home they usually come in sizable groups and think of how embarassing it would be if a
neighbor of you target is a cop, he or she (PC is a bitch these days) could immediately notice things are awry from the simple
tactics you employ. Though I suppose my suggestion has a place somewhere in the toolbox, just not sure where.
One last con on the Police idea, it's a big felony for impersonating cops. I work as a Security Officer (they get all pissy at work
if we call ourselves guards for some idiotic reason. Don't worry, I'm not going to make a career out of this, just a college job)
and our uniforms look like the cops' uniforms. Hell a lot of people won't pass me on the highway when I'm uniform. However
we've been constantly reminded how big of a felony it is to imitate an officer.
(I hope I'm not talking out of turn, I know I'm relatively new here and don't wish to cause any friction)

That's very cute. I've got a mate who's a security guard, too. Generally a very dull job in the UK. You can't stop anyone most
of the time, even if your 8 an hour was enough for you to want to!
One advantage to picking the lock is that you might be able to shut the door again behind you, and so work freely for a while
before simply walking out as if you own the place, and locking the door behind you. If there's a busted door, that's not going
to work.
nocturnalfrost August 5th, 2006, 01:47 AM

There is a group of people in the Netherlands that are educating people in the skill and art of lock picking. Their site is a great
place to learn techniques, buy modern style lock picks, and also find what locks are "good" locks.
These guys even challenge companies to send in their locks to be tested. Some companies even chicken out. They will also let
the public know if a companies's locks have certain vunerabilities, and the company is hiding these facts. They were recently in
N.Y. at HOPE 6 teaching people the tricks.
http://www.toool.nl/index-eng.php
ozboy August 5th, 2006, 10:38 AM

Modern high security locks and how to open them, link.
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/78119-post31.html
++++++++++++
Howabout's UTFSE and avoiding posting duplicate links, eh? You'll avoid gettting banned that way.
NBK

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > My improvised planetary
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View Full Version : My improvised planetary camera
megalomania March 10th, 2003, 03:07 AM

As I may have mentioned earlier I am building an improvised planetary camera along similar lines as of the Bookeye
planetary camera. For those who dont know what a planetary camera is, it is essentially an overhead digital camera that takes
pictures of a book in the books normal reading position. Planetary cameras start at $20,000 and go up from there. A digital
camera can do basically the same thing with a bit of work and minus the fancy software.
I have just completed scanning my first book with this method, the 63 page Explosive Principles by Robert Sickler which is
uploading to the FTP as I write this. This is actually the first book I have scanned from start to finish :) Its small size seemed
perfect for my tests.
Scanning the book was a snap. All told I scanned all the pages in about 3 or 4 minutes. Setup required less than 10 minutes,
but considering this was my first time I expect this to take less. I used a 1 foot threaded rod attached to the cameras tripod
hole and a lab ringstand to hold the camera. I leveled the camera and focused in on the book. Once that was done all I had
to do was snap the pic and turn the page.
Post processing took a few hours, but again had to download software, learn it, and use it for my first time. Now that I have a
handle on things I could probably do everything quite quickly. I used batch image processing software to rotate/straighten
some images, crop the margins, convert to grayscale, crop again to split the two page images into one page images, and
rename all the files to even and odd to correspond to the page numbers. Finally all the images were converted to PDF files
and saved into one single document.
I made many mistakes and discoveries along the way that I am writing a web page about. When I am done I will make a
detailed step by step how to guide complete with pictures for others to follow along with me. I want to know if anyone out there
has had a similar experience to mine and wants to share their insights while I write the page.
The seeds for this project were planted several years ago while I was in the library. Being a cheap bastard I refuse to spend
$0.20 a pop on photocopies, and I dont particularly care for writing down the contents of sozens of pages of material. Some
books cant be checked out so what to do. If only I had a digital camera I thought Now I have a nice 4.1 megapixel camera
with a 128 MB card. I still didnt make the connection until I accidentally stumbled on a webpage about the bookeye. Check
out <a href="http://www.digitise-it.com/scanners/scan2.html" target="_blank">http://www.digitise-it.com/scanners/
scan2.html</a> to see exactly what I am talking about.
I estimate the time to scan one page of a book to be 10 seconds each. This includes turning the page, taking the picture, and
downloading the images from the cameras memory card. If a picture of two pages at a time is taken this time can be halved.
At 5 seconds a page one could scan 1440 pages in 2 hours! (a large book in about the time I can reasonably be expected to
sit in one spot nonstop) Post processing of the images will still be required in addition to this, but you have to do that no
matter what method you use to scan. A real planetary camera can take the picture, split the pages, assemble them into a PDF
file and run OCR all in real time even while you are taking the pictures. I would expect no less for $20,000 though.
It will still be a few weeks before I finish writing my paper about this. In the mean time I hope people would be wiling to share
how they process their scanned images? Up until now I have only scanned individual pages straight into pdf files while being
anally sure the page was aligned while it was being scanned. This takes a lot of time this way. Also I did not compress my
images or anything. The individual images of my latest book were about 125k a pop after cropping and reducing to grayscale,
and the book is 7.81 MB for 62 pages. I dont know if that is too big or what. I still have to apply OCR to the file, the two
programs I have are not yet installed. I also forget how to apply compression on pdf files, it has been a long time since I last
did that.
nbk2000 October 4th, 2003, 10:03 PM

I wonder what the minimum camera resolution is to make this work? I could buy a 2megapixel camera at work for about $130,
and hook it up to my computer to use it to capture pictures directly into it, without using the card.
megalomania October 5th, 2003, 04:22 AM

I use 1600x1200 resolution at high compression on my 4.1 megapixel camera and I get about 280 images per 60 MB. This
resolution is about half, or two thirds of what the camera is capeable of, so I estimate a 2 megapixel camera may just do the
job. The quality of images I get seem to be on par with 600-800 dpi scans, and that is 2 pages at a time.
I actually reduce my image quality by 60% of the original and I still get a clear image more on par with a 300 dpi scan. I did
find that setting my camera on 640x480 resolution was unacceptably low.
Of course I have no other frames of reference to gauge if a lower megapixeled camera will work or not. What information that
is on the Internet is very sketchy. Of course considering I get good images even after reducing my quality by 60% and that
from the middle setting I don't think it is too far a stretch to assume a 2 megapixel set to maximum quality can do the same
thing.
I am actually considering buying one myself around Christmas (a 2 MP camera). The owners of the camera I use are less than
enthused at having me taking endless thousands of pictures, and then they always seem to be using it when I want it (owning
a digital camera turns everyone into a shutterbug, you come to want it handy all the time to take pictures of everything).
You have to watch what camera you get though because not all of them can be connected to the computer in the way you want
to use it, nbk. Only more recent cameras have the feature, and likely the more expensive ones. Mine for example can only
transfer images through a USB cable, but it can not do so at the same time an image is being taken. The camera has to be
physicially configured to set it to computer mode and a special spftware package run to download the images. I actually pop
out my card and use a card reader that is part of my printer to do this job far more efficiently. This still renders the camera
ineffective during the lengthy process.
I am sure you meant have the image transferred directly to the computer while you take it, rather like a webcam. Again, that
is something you have to look for before you buy because not all cameras have this feature.
Rhadon October 5th, 2003, 10:13 AM

Mega, it's quite a long time ago since you wrote your first post, but it's only now that I see you're asking for others to share
their experience. I had the idea to create a PDF that teaches others how to create good-looking PDFs with minimum effort
using a flatbed scanner. But this is a project for the future, I've got other things to do right now.
On http://www.digitise-it.com/scanners/scan2.html they mention a program which can do a "fold correction". That one caught
my attention and would be a very nice thing to have. Perhaps someone has an application which can do this or can at least
name one. Thanks in advance.
megalomania October 5th, 2003, 07:35 PM

I have looked into the program you mentioned, I believe it comes with most planetary cameras. Unfortunatly this software
cannot apply such fold corrections after the fact, it has to be corrected before the picture is even taken. Since digital cameras,
or even scanners, arn't equiped to deal with this type of technology, the software won't work. It has to be coupled with special
hardware that is part of the imaging system.
It would seem to me that a simple photoshop plugin could do the job, but apparently there is some hugh technological hurdle
that prevents images from being flattened and uncurled in this way. A pity.
Nevertheless I tried to find the software, but it would be very rare as it is a $700 item, and usually only bundled with a $25000
unit.
Rhadon October 5th, 2003, 07:49 PM

Flattening the image may seem easy at first, but in fact it's a rather complicated job because the depth of the fold differs from
book to book and even from page to page. For that reason the plugin would have to analyze the page and find out about this
details on its own which is a hard thing to code. One would be most likely to find such functionality in OCR programs, but since
the new FineReader 7.0 doesn't have it I assume that we'll have to live with the fold. Thanks for taking your time!
IDTB October 5th, 2003, 09:56 PM

This is alittle off topic, but it might be good information. You decide.
I believe it would be alot easier if you simply use a program that analyzed the pictures rewrote the letters it sees in another
document. It would be silly to have a huge file due having data presenting the pages/book when you could simply have data
only presenting the print.
I'm sure finding such software or even creating it shouldn't be that hard. It would work mostly on comparing what it sees to it's
database of characters.
I'm not sure if I make any sense. If I don't, tell me and I'll try to elaborate as much as possible.

The camera I'm looking at has a 1,600x1,200 pixel image (actual). It will hold 25 images on 16mb of storage card, so how
would I figure out DPI from that info?
IDTB October 6th, 2003, 01:01 AM

I believe you derive the DPI from the megapixels.
nbk2000 October 6th, 2003, 03:21 AM

Boy, that was informative. :rolleyes:

IDTB, you might want to look up "OCR":p
EDIT: Surely if you took an image 8"x6" at 1600x1200 that would be 1 920 000 pixels, spread over an area of 8x6= 48sqin =
1 920 000 / 48 = 40 000dpi
Seems very wrong...
IDTB October 6th, 2003, 02:13 PM

I was informing you how to figure out the DPI, because I didn't think you knew. You said, 'from that info?'. I don't believe
there's anyway to figure out the DPI from that, as I informed you. If you provide adequate information, I too will provide an
adequate answer.
I'm sorry if you didn't find me helpful.
Thanks, Anthony! That's exactly what I was trying to think of. ;)
a_bab October 7th, 2003, 10:12 AM

Anthony, your calculations are *almost* exact. The problem is that dpi stands for Dot Per Inch, and not Dot Per square Inch,
as in your calculation. So basically what you've got there is the number of pixels you have spreaded over a square inch. You
only need the number of a frame of your square, so since it's a square you can extract the root out of your area number,
which is 40,000.
200*200=40,000
In conclusion, 200 dpi.
A-BOMB October 7th, 2003, 12:49 PM

That is some cool stuff Mega I think I just found a use for this 1.3Megapixel aiptek digicam that I have I think I should be
good for semi-good resolution. I have this spy book that describe this process in makeing microdots and photo copies I'll see
if I can find it and get some pics of it.

Thanks for the correction a_bab, I see it is obviously dots-per-inch on a line now :)

This is how I figured it out.
Image size in pixels
H x W = Pixels
1600 x 1200= 1920000
Pixels / Image byte rate (24 bit RGB =3 bytes per pixel) = Image Size (bytes)
1920000 / 3 = 640000 bytes per image
This agrees with the specs on the box for both image pixel size and for image storage capacity for the included card. (16mb/
640kb=25 images).
Image size (bytes) / Image size (sq. inches) = X
The square root of X is the DPI for that image.
If we figure an 8" x 5" page image, that's 40 sq. inches per image.
640000 / 40 (square inches) = ~120DPI
A 3" x 5" image would be:
640000 / 15 = ~205DPI
Assuming a minimum of 150DPI for passable OCR, that means a book page no larger than 28 square inches in size could be
processed by this camera. :( So I'll not be buying it.
If it was possible to take the pictures in B&W, than that'd make it feasible, because 8 bit Grayscale uses only 1 byte per pixel,
and 16 bit Grayscale uses 2 bytes per pixel. However, the camera doesn't take pictures in anything BUT color. :mad:
nbk2000 October 12th, 2003, 12:49 AM

Well I bought the camera anyways, since I can always return it.
I took a picture of a typewritten page and cleaned it up in photoshop, adjust the resolution, converted to B&W, saved to TIFF,
and opened it in my OCR program. It worked. :cool:
Now to try something more complicated like a magazine page. There may be hope yet. :)
++++++++
Good news, bad news.
Good news is that it'll do for a small book that I'm working on that has several hundred pages of single column text. :)
Bad newsit can't do magazine articles for shit 'cause the type is too small and over too large an area. :(
Though, if I just take a picture of the page, it's readable to the eye, even if OCR can't make heads or tails of it, but with a
small bit of fish-eye distortion at close range.
Jacks Complete November 9th, 2003, 08:29 PM

I have tried to do this, using a 4 megapixel camera, and had very little success.
I was trying to do "The Crossbow" by Ralph Payne-Galwey, cos the seige engines are brilliant, as well as the info on different
systems and all the history of the crossbow.
Anyway, what OCR packages have you guys been trying? I got nowhere with the free one I got with my scanner, even after I
hacked it to take files as well as scans. It was Textbridge Classic 2.0, but it just didn't work, as it couldn't cope without lots of
photoshopping first.
What would you recommend?
peterthesmart November 9th, 2003, 09:13 PM

In the latest issue of popular science, they had an picture and description of a planetary camera like device for about $50,000
that could scan 1,500 pages in an hour automatically. I'll scan the article when I find some time. Better start savin up!
Rhadon November 9th, 2003, 09:34 PM

Anyway, what OCR packages have you guys been trying?
In this (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?threadid=1672&postid=48007#post48007) thread I wrote how I
scan my books. You should get FineReader if you can, it's much better than Textbridge.
megalomania December 15th, 2003, 12:33 PM

I am getting ready to improve my process a good bit and take a cue from the real planetary camera people. My two main
problems include flash washout and how to hold sown the pages of some books.
I think I have both problems licked, we shall find out. The flash washout, I believe, is caused by my flash being too close to
the page. It is far too bright in one spot while it gets progressively darker towards the edges. This has also caused some
trouble when I convert the images to black and white as the lack of contrast between the black words and the white page where
the flash was brightest causes those words to be unreadable. If I pull my camera back about 12 inches it should diffuse the
flash enough to limit the washout effect.
This creates two problems though. First I will need a stand height approaching 3 feet tall, and second it will mean the edges of
the page will be darker still. Sometimes even with the flash close the corners can be unacceptably dark and unreadable. I plan
to use some halogen floodlights on either side as bias lighting just like they do with planetary cameras. Hopefully this will be
bright enough to lighten the edges of the page whereas the flash will brighten the center. I may even go so far as to build a
cardboard shell and cover the inside with aluminum foil to reflect as much light as possible on to the book pages.
The stand height is easily taken care of. I have a large capacity ringstand without a rod, I will have to buy a rod at the
hardware store and just glue it in, or thread it myself. An alternative I have been toying with is to use some gooseneck lamp
arm, or one of those mechanical levered lamp arms that let you swing the lamp into any position. Using a gooseneck might
simplify positioning the camera rapidly because it can make fine adjustments quickly. Using a ring stand is rather hit or miss
requiring lengthy readjustment. I do worry that neither a gooseneck or mechanical arm will not be able to support the weight of
a camera, nor will it stay in place with the constant movement of pressing the camera button. I will think of something...
My next problem is how to hold the pages down. Using a pane of glass worked great for this, but the reflection was horrible. I
can't not use the flash, the resulting text is unreadable. I have extensively researched information on anti-reflective glass. I
have concluded it may be too expensive. From what I can gather the best source of anti-reflective glass is framing shops. The
sell crystal clear glass that looks invisible for framing artwork. This glass is coated on both sides with materials that reduce
reflection down to around 1%. Normal glass reflects 9% of light. There are no coatings, sprays, or films that we as consumers
can apply ourselves, there are no cheap alternatives.
Anti-reflective glass has a few brands that are used, Denglas, TruVue, Image Perfect, and Luxar being the major brands I
could find. None of the manufactures sell by the piece, and very few framing shops online sell the stuff mailorder. Fortunately
there are many framing shops in my area; someone should be able to get me some assuming the price is not too high. It
may cost as low as $85 for a single piece of 18" x 18" glass! Acrylic plastics cost even more, but I need the glass for weight,
so plastic is not so good. I may not need to go as high as 18x18 of course. 18 inches wide would be enough to cover both
pages of an A4 sized book (8.5 x 11, like a sheet of paper), but come to think of 18 the page curl is way too excessive on
such large books. Most books that size tend to be thick, or at least the ones I will be scanning, and that means I will have to
t a k e o n e p a g e at a time. So mething clos er to 12x10 would be b est for smaller, thinner books. I didn t quite catch what the
lady on the phone said, but I think they charge by the square inch.
A-BOMB December 15th, 2003, 01:32 PM

Mega you can try this, turn off the flash on the camera and use 2 bright lights that are off too the sides of the book you are
taking a picture of. I did this when I tried this with my camera I took my tripod and attached a piece of wood to it then I drilled
a bolt into the end that was threaded to fit the attachment on the bottom of my camera, I then put a counter weight on the
onther end of the wood rod. Then I used the 2 desk lamps I had next to my computers I aimed the lamps and adjested the
focus on the camera and it turned out pretty good. The 2 lights evened the light out across the pages. Just make sure that
your useing good lightbulbs that have a uniform white light in each lamp.
inFinie December 15th, 2003, 03:00 PM

If anyone have matlab:
In this link http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~ojanen/undistort/index.html
it covers two types of distortion,zip file contains an exe file disappointingly it needs matlab to compute some parameters.
EDIT: A plugin might work: http://www.pluginsworld.com/Photoshop/plugins.php3?action=software374&soft=Photoshop
megalomania December 18th, 2003, 12:46 AM

Yes, A-bomb, that was what I mentioned in my last post I was going to do. I set up my system today and it worked quite well.
Those 2 halogens throw off some heat, good thing it's winter so I can open a window. I used the glass window I have to hold
the pages down and I got no reflection. It took a little fiddeling with my camera exposure settings to get it just right. Normal
exposure is no good without a flash so I set it at +2 EV. I am not quite sure what that means, but I think it keeps the shutter
open a little longer. All the other exposure settings left the image black.
The final picture was still a little too bright for ClearImage to render into legible text unfortunatly. I would move the lights back
a bit but I am out of table space. I have a countertop in the garage, I'll have to use that to give me some width.
I have attached my sample image to show my results, I hope it isn't too big...

I have completed my latest rounds of camera tests and I finally found a system the lets me use ClearImage to render the
text readable. I elevated the halogen lights about a foot and angled them so they point more at each other than on the book.
This creates a substantially darker image, but when converted to bitonal in ClearImage all the text is readable.
Before only the text on the inside margin, farthest from the light, was readable. I could probably raise them a little higher to
reduce the light just a tiny bit more to make the text even better.
I found out that I do not need to write a vbasic script to run a batch process in ClearImage, I only need to make a bat file to
run it. I still have no idea how to make a bat file, but it looks as if it may be easier than programming vbasic. If anyone
knows anything about making a bat file please tell me. I want it to open each image one after the other, apply deskew and
autocrop, and then save them as tiffs.
Attached you will find a zip that has the original jpg I took, and then the processed tif file. The tif file was reduced 86% from
the original. I converted it to a pdf file, and then ran jbig compression. Unfortunately the silx jbig compression actually added
3k to the pdf. Maybe it will not do that if I have hundreds of pages to compress.

A flash-diffuser might have helped ypu to avoid the washout in the centre of the page. Something like a piece of tissue paper
taped over the flash. But considering that the edges were already under-iluminated, it probably wouldn't have helped.
Bert December 24th, 2003, 02:07 PM

Have you considered building a light box? Make a square box of transparent plastic or paper difusors, put the lights outside of
it on all sides shining in and the object to be photographed inside- This provides difused light evenly from all sides. Turn off
the flash and go with the now bright, apparently sourceless ambient light inside the box. Should allow use of an ordinary glass
plate to hold down pages as there is now no point source to cause reflection.

Using my twin halogens I can now get exactly the right amount of light, after adjusting the timing on capture speed. SInce the
camera was not getting anough light I increased the length of time the picture is taken and the amount of light is drasticially
increased. At +2 the image is quite bright, at -2, even at +0.5 the image is pure black. By varying the direction the lights are
pointing (directly on the page vs towards each other) and by varying the distance the lights are to the book I can get different
light levels.
I have two light settings now, one to get a good quality color image that is human readable (full light, and +2 shutter delay)
and the other to get a machine readable image able to be converted to bitonal and still be machine readable (lights angled
towards one another somewhat farther away, and shutter lag set to +1 to make a much darker image).
The human readable images are best for color pages with graphics and colored text, or any old graphics for that matter. The
machine readable text only becomes human readable after processing, its advantage is a significiantly reduced filesize.
Graphics are, however, less than readable.

I applied for FTP access about 2 weeks ago, hope to get it someday soon. I've got a digital camera (Olympus Camedia C-
3000) with a tripod mount- I'd be interested in playing with this technology and these programs. I've got a few books you all
might be interested in if I can get the techniques down. More to learn about the computer...

Nothing beats direct sunlight for brightness and diffused source. Though this might make planetary scanning a seasonal
activity. ;)
chemwarrior December 24th, 2003, 11:57 PM

Check your mail again Bert. I sent you the login and password a while back...
Mike76251 December 30th, 2003, 08:37 AM

If the light reflection problem persists off your glass you might look into a polarizing filter over your lens. One with two pieces
of polarizing glass that you can rotate will knock at any and all reflections off glass.
megalomania January 3rd, 2004, 02:57 PM

Now that I use flanking lights I don't have a reflecting problem, although a polarizing lens is a good idea I never thought of.
That would certainly be cheaper than a pane of anti-reflective glass.
megalomania January 3rd, 2004, 07:50 PM

I have had a breakthrough recently in my technique. Lower resolution images, or compressed jpgs incorrectly render black text
as varying shades of dark gray. While this is unnoticeable to the human eye, subsequent conversion to bitonal images
changes those gray pixels to white. Bitonal images keep only black pixels, everything else gets deleted.
By using photoshops color replacement, actually by varying the lightness of the image, after conversion to grayscale I can
darken all the pixels. They dark grays are converted to black wheras the light grays are converted to dark gray. The image is
not entirely human readable, but it is not intended to be. Subsequent bitonal conversion resuts in strikingly readable text.
Previously I was only able to get such text using special light conditions and no compression of the image. No compression
means I can take fewer pictures before I have to download the card to my computer, and this is not something I wish to do.
Compressing the images means I can take 4 times as many pictures before the card fills up.
Due to the way my light source plays on the pages it creates a circular pattern that gets progressively darker towards the
edges. In grayscale this looks like an increasing circle of gray, but is not very noticeable. Unfortunatly in the very corners the
gray is the same color as the pixels I want to turn black. I could compensate for this by adding mirrors to reflect extra light in
each of the corners, but that adds an extra bit of complexitty I would like to avoid. The end result are black cresents in each
corner that obscures some of the text.
Instead I use photoshpos marquee selection to highlight only a portion of the page. I select a large oval that excludes the
corners. I then apply the darkening to the central portion of the page. The corners are already dark enough in most cases to
corretly convert to bitonal and be readable.
Once darkening is done and the image is converted to bitonal the text is clearly readable. Without darkening the bitonal
conversion makes almost illegable text. I have not tried OCR as of yet, but I expect it to have a high degree of accuracy. I
was able to make a macro on Photoshop to do all of this automaticially.
There is some speckeling (noise) that the darkening brings out that I can easily remove with some other software. The
undarkened corners do appear a little hard to read sometimes after conversion to bitonal. I may readjust my macro to apply a
less intense darkening on each corner. Now I just need to get the software that applies the bitonal conversion to do a batch
process. I was thinking of using a macro program to open each image file one by one, apply the processing I want, and save
the files. The only problem I forsee there is the image software I want to run the macro on saves every file as *.tiff by default.
You have to type in what you want * to be and I don't know if a macro program will be smart enough to add a sequentially
increasing number.
ardjek February 2nd, 2004, 05:41 PM

While searching google about copying articles and pictures with digital camera, I came across some usefull information about
how to straighten the text of documents and a few portable stands that could be used for copying materials say from a
reference library.
Searching "+digital camera +genealogy" I came across

http://www.rideau-info.com/genealogy/digital/copying.html which talks using a digital camera and a reversed tripod to copy
pictures.
http://www.csigizmos.com/products/photography/photostand.html has information about a portable PVC stand. It may be
light, but steady? not sure.
http://www.magiscope.com/stand.htm
Wood camera stand.
http://genforum.genealogy.com/tips/messages/2459.html it is a collection of articles about using a digital camera to copy

documents. The articles are in .txt format. Skim the texts until you find the good stuff, usually around the middle of the text
file.
Check out Vol1. No11 to Vol1. No.13.
"Vol. 1, No. 12 - 21 November 2002: The Digital Darkroom, Part 2- a document editing exercise, straighten text and correct
density using mask and transform tools, etc."
"Vol. 1, No. 13 -05 December 2002: The Digital Darkroom, Part 3 - editing photos captured from a microfilm reader display,
exercise
dealing with common problems including hot spots and image distortion."
Here is a quick link to the text correction article. (The article in the .txt file is more detailed and teaches step by step.)http://
www.NGSgenealogy.org/upfront/112102/
Vol 1. No. 7 and Vol1. No 9 have information about making portable copy stands and flash diffusion.
Copy stands linkhttp://www.ngsgenealogy.org/upfront/091202/pubs/
Hope those links help.
megalomania January 13th, 2005, 02:46 AM

It has recently come to my attention that there is such a thing as panoramic stitching software that will combine multiple
images into one. This could have valuable implications for the planetary camera technique because it may be able to jump
that last hurdle of allowing high accuracy OCR. Currently a 6 to 8 megapixel camera still gives about 200-250 dpi scans.
Stitching two pages would just about double that.
I tried the technique on a new piece of software that is making waves in the photographers sect called autostitch. It just came
out last month, is something of a beta program, and lacks documentation for now. My tests with it have shown autostitch to be
quite good, better than the few other major stiching progs I tried.
Unfortunatly it left a slight misalignment on my test photos. I suspect this could be eliminated by adjusting my photographing
technique. The software also lacks batch capeabilities, but that can be compensated for by using macro software. The lack of
documentation is rather disturbing as this software has a number of advanced features that are a complete mystery. At least it
is free (for now).
For those interested in giving this a whirl go to http://www.autostitch.net/
I was thinking about using a heavy board to tape my book to, and then tape the board to the table. This way when I finish the
top of the page all I have to do is move the board rather than uproot the entire book and risk rotating or distorting it.

While updating my planetary camera how-to guide I came accross a very recent development in scanning technology. Just last
month two scientists at Xerox have published a paper at a conference about a mathematical formula that compensates for
page curl and light variations in the gutter of a books spine. That means no curled text or black bar running down the middle
of the book.
I don't know if this new formula would work with digital cameras, but there is hope that the problem is being worked on. To
read about the new technique see http://www.xeroxagents.com/pages/detpages/xeroxnews492.shtml or http://www-
cs.ccny.cuny.edu/~wolberg/pub/xeroxStory.html
Kamisama December 4th, 2005, 03:10 PM

Now, I like this whole guide and idea stuff. It's kinda funny how you tripped over the idea mega, because I've pondered the
idea of how to make quick book scans.
ONTO THE QUESTION
I've been saving up money for a 4.0 MP camera ever since I read the how-to guide. The thing is, I came looking for this type
of thread and noticed that you had said it would be somewhat O.K. for a person to use a 2.1+ MP camera. I really question
what the megapixel resolution required is.
I've got some books I want to scan 8/9.5 x 11

These books aren't highly graphic except this one (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/007298936X/qid=1133722665/sr=8-1/
ref=pd_bbs_1/104-4060590-4008740?n=507846&s=books&v=glance). It includes photographs and art of different people
from Picasso to a detailed B&W picture of Charlie Chaplin in a scene from Modern Time where he is standing next to a bunch
of gears (http://www.stadtkinowien.at/imgs/filme/26/01_big.jpg).
In a science book I would assume those gears and their location would be of importance. I do have some psychology books
that talk about neuroscience so I find capturing some detail to be important. I don't need great in depth, but I need enough
detail to understand what the picture is telling me.
Math books will be of importance; Electronic books, also.
So I've got about $130 USD. I could have bought a 5 MP camera for $45 with the LCD broken but didn't because I did not
know if the LCD would be important for the accuracy and position of imaging. I didn't know if some users here found the LCD
to be a huge help or not.
If I can get a digicam with a lower MP and if it works correctly, then I should be able to save some cash. However, does a lower
MP work?
Note: I don't really care about OCR'ing the text. I don't care about having a search feature at all really. I just care about
bending my physical books up because I have to flip through them. I have a page down key and quick eyesight, I'll do fine
without the search option.
I figure since I don't care about OCR, that means I'm allowed to have the MP go down a bit, right? I remember you had said
in the tutorial that 4.1MP was the minimum for OCR'ing, but I don't feel the need for it.
So from the info, would getting a lower MP be allowed so I can save some cash? Should I go with 4 MP even though? I thought
about going up to 5 MP, but as I said I don't care about OCR, I care about image quality and detail.
Quality images like this would become necessary to view:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bookres.fcgi/mboc4/ch1f19.jpg
http://www.telemedicine.org/BioWar/bw06a.jpg
http://www.telemedicine.org/BioWar/bw12a.JPG
http://www.telemedicine.org/BioWar/bw43ba.JPG
Also something more about the turning of pages.

In my head I concieved the idea that a person could build a hinge system with a glass mirror attached, somewhat like on an
entertainment center cabinent. That way the could lift the glass, turn the page, lower the glass. Anyone try this?
justme August 25th, 2006, 07:34 PM

I have been UTFSE for an answer to the question posed by Megalomania in another thread regarding the format for batch or
.com files to automate the functions of Clearimage.
Was there ever any resolution to this question?
I have tried to discern how this is done from the help files and the programmer's web site, but unfortunately, I am as close to
illiterate in programming matters as it is possible to be.
I am attempting to take the two page scans of "Preparatory Manual of Black Powder and Pyrotechnics" and make it ready for
OCR by dividing the pages and cleaning it up with Clearimage.
None of the steps are difficult, but there are numerous steps, and the number of pages involved makes the task seem a bit
daunting.
megalomania September 10th, 2006, 08:32 PM

I ended up contacting the Clearimage tech support, but they referred me to a sales rep who basically would only discuss
technical details if I purchased the software. I ended up using a macro program to follow my mouse clicks and to switch
between files. I made a text file with all the file names I wanted the files to be named, used the macro to copy a name (I
forget now, but through a combination of hot keys including home and something to select the line), switch over to
Clearimage, paste the filename when saving that image, and opening the next image on the list. This works 99% of the time.
It is only when windows screws up when something pops up, a window switches that should not, or Clearimage crashes that
things go wrong.
megalomania October 16th, 2006, 12:27 AM

Just a few months ago the good people at Atiz released the BookDrive DIY, a do it yourself book scanner that relies on digital
cameras. Yes, well, we have been doing this all along for the last few years. What is nice is the relatively low price of $4500,
and you supply your own cameras (Canon digital SLRs are only supported so far, like the Rebel XT).
The price is still a bit exorbitant, although it seems the aim of Atiz is to produce these proof of concept products with the
ultimate goal of producing an affordable home scanner for ordinary people to digitize their library collection.
The BookDrive DIY is mainly an expensive digitally controlled lighting system with a dual camera USB interface and some
software. This is, in my estimation, where most of the money goes into this product. All of that I can do without.
The real innovation that has inspired me is the brilliant, yet simplistic, book cradle system. The DIY can be seen in action at
the atiz website here: http://atiz.com/bookdrive_diy.php
Specifically, in the attached image, the DIY uses an angled book cradle that slides on a movable base. The clear platen
presses down in the center of the book, and the movable cradle always centers the pages so that it remains in exactly the
same distance from the camera for every picture!
It took me a few minutes to realize the implications of this simple innovation, so let me explain further why this is important.
First, the angled cradle minimizes page curl by keeping the book as close to 90 degrees as is feasible. A book opened flat
has a considerable hump, or curl, at the spine that makes OCRing difficult, if not impossible. This is a problem that plagues
scanners in particular because you cant angle the book and still be able to scan the page.
Second, the clear cover is very handy to keep the pages of the book from slumping inward due to its own weight, which also
distorts the pages.
Third, and this is the most important feature, every time the platen is lowered it forces the movable book cradle to center the
book. One of the biggest problems I am facing with my process now is the page creep caused by the book slowly getting
farther and farther away with each turn of the page. If you have a 1000 page book, page 1 is much closer than page 1000 by
2-3 inches. If you focus your camera to center on page 1, by the time you get to page 1000 the actual area of page your are
photographing will be much larger, and this reduces the effective DPI because you are now photographing the margins, the
table, and a lot of extra crap beyond the book itself. The only valid solution is to periodically readjust the camera to refocus
on the pages, but this wastes time, alters the focusing and lighting characteristics, and plays havoc with post editing.
The post editing is the real bugger. If every page you photograph gets progressively smaller, you cant effectively do a batch
crop and get the margins right every time. As an added bonus, just to make life miserable, photographing a book flat causes
margin crawl* from left to right.
* margin crawl is difficult to explain, suffice it to say that the book walks a distance equal to the thickness of the book.
Starting at page 1, by page 1000 your margins are 2 inches to the right, and if you never adjusted the camera you are cutting
off the edge of your text.
Now then, with a movable base that centers itself with every turn of the page, every single page of the book will be perfectly
centered and equidistant from the camera. Whether you are photographing page 1, or page 1000, every page will be virtually
the same. This will let you do a batch crop with little fuss or manual editing that gets the book finished in the least amount of
time.
In a flatbed scanner the pages of the book are pressed against the glass. The page being scanned is always the same
distance from the scan head. You end up with pages all the same size, and with the same DPI. With the type of adjustable
base in the DIY you can achieve the same results with a digital camera.
Now to improvise the sucker A DIY version of the DIY.
http://www.roguesci.org/images/BookDriveDIY.jpg
megalomania November 7th, 2006, 02:27 AM

I partially finished my copystand today. I still have to add the backs to the angled blocks of wood to properly support the
book, but that is incidental to the rest of the device. Total cost of this project was under $20.
Here is a basic rundown of how I built it (explicit details to be included in my updated ebook).
I started with a 36 inch Rubbermaid shelf from the hardware store; it is just some black laminated particle board. Cost; about
$6 and change.
The slider is a ball bearing drawer slide for a kitchen drawer. Cost was a steep $11. You can get much cheaper drawer slides,
but I wanted a ball bearing one for the smoothest slide action.
I cut a 14 inch length of the shelf for the base. The drawer slide is 14 inches long, so that is what determined the size of the
base.
The drawer slides were screwed into the base board with the included screws.
I had a spare length of 2x4 that I marked to 40 degree angles with my protractor. I cut the board with a miter box saw I have.
With one cut to 40 degrees, I just cut the board straight and this piece was also 40 degrees. The two blocks with angles of 40
degrees actually make a 100 degree angle between them, and this seems to be an optimum angle for holding a book open.
The top board is a 12 inch length of shelf. I wanted to accommodate a book width of 5 inches maximum, and the angled
blocks are each 3.5 inches, so this is what determined the top board should be 12 inches.
Using an electric miter saw with a 1/8 inch blade I cut two strips into the center of the top board. This created a inch slot in
the center. I marked off 2 inches from either end to prevent the board from simply being cut in half.
I purchased a inch double sided screw that has wood thread on one side, and machine thread on the other. I drilled a hole
into my angled blocks and then screwed in the wood screw part. This leaves the machine thread part sticking out. No surprise
here, the inch sized screw fits nicely into the inch groove of the top board. The board is only 5/8 inch thick, and the screw
stuck about 1 inch out of the angled block.
I purchased some washers and wing nuts to fasten the angled blocks to the top board. Keeping in mind that the machine
threaded part of the screw sticks out about 3/8 of an inch under the board allowed me to place the washer against the bottom,
and then secure it tight with the wing nut. The wing nut fits on the machine thread part.
The wing nut sticks out 1/8 inch more than the clearance of the drawer slide gives me, so I had to add the spacer blocks to
raise the top board up a bit. I just cut four 1 inch strips from the 2x4, attached them to the drawer slides on the bottom, and
used drywall screws to fasten the top board to the spacers. I countersunk the screws into the top board just because it looks
slightly better. I used drywall screws because I had them handy.
I actually didnt drill the holes into the angled blocks myself, so the person that did it did not properly measure where the hole
should go. I said screw in the double sided screw near the front, but the screw was so long it may have poked through, so it
was placed near the center. This resulted in the unfortunate condition of me being able spread the blocks 4 inches wide
instead of 5 inches. I dont plan on scanning that many books thicker than 4 inches, but if I do, the blocks can be easily
modified.
Here are some possible modifications I would consider: I searched the Internet and found some objects called linear slides.
Some of these are expensive, some are cheap, like $10 each on ebay. These might be better than my drawer slides, they
might not. I would have to get one and play with it to see how smoothly they actually slide from side to side.
The end result is what you see in the pictures. Picture 1 is a top view from the front.
http://www.roguesci.org/images/copystand1.jpg
Picture 2 is a top view from the side.

Picture 3 is a view of the bottom board with the top slid all the way open.
Picture 4 is a bottom view of the top board showing the wing nuts and washers in the slotted groove.
Picture 5 is a closeup of the angled block with the washer and wing nut.
Picture 6 is the finished product with a book in the cradle.

Yes, I know I didnt quite cut the block on the line there. It actually does not matter if it is precisely 40 degrees; it just matters
that the camera matches the angle of the book. You can see where I penciled in 40 on the block of wood.
Now I have a few more problems to address. I am not even going to address the platen now, that is a complex issue I have
not quite decided on what to do yet. Lighting is my next step. My copystand (pictured below) has 4 flanking lights angled at
roughly 45 degrees. This is fine when documents are lying flat, but since my books will now be both elevated and angled, I
cant use those lights. The angle of the lights needs to be such that they do not reflect directly into the lens. What I need is a
light directly above the book. Essentially the cameras will be where the lights are now, and the lights will be where the cameras
is.
I am somewhat dissatisfied with the quality of lighting I am getting from my copy lights. I think more light is in order, much
more light. I wanted some new lights that are cheap and bright, but these two conditions seem to be mutually exclusive. I
originally envisioned building an array of 16 incandescent 100W lightbulbs, but it turns out that would A) be far too bright, and
B) a circuit breaker can only handle 1400W before tripping. Halogens would literally cook me alive if I used one of those,
professional slave strobes would cost a fortune, so that left fluorescent lights.
I was reticent about using fluorescent lighting, so I checked up on some facts. Modern digital cameras can compensate quite
well for the color temperature of fluorescent lighting, and there are better quality flicker free fixtures available. I priced some
of the overhead fixtures, but only the 4 footers are cheap. Those just seemed too big.
Then I discovered the wonderful world of compact fluorescent lightbulbs. For those of you who may not know what a CF bulb is,
those are the twisty 10-year bulbs that fit a regular light fixture, but are fluorescent bulbs. I always thought these were very
expensive, but prices have dropped considerably in the last few years. I bought 14 of them for $3 a pop. Only 6 are for my
lighting project, the other 8 are going around the house.
CF bulbs have the added benefit of being flicker free (or flicker less) compared to the long tube bulbs because of the
integrated ballast they have. I bought 100 watt daylight bulbs, which offers a whiter light comparable to natural sunlight. I
bought 6 fixture sockets that I will have to wire up myself. The CF bulbs are actually 23 watts each; they put out the same
about of light as a 100W incandescent bulb.
The 140W of the CF bulbs will not blow a fuse, but I still get 600W of light output, which is 150% more light than I am using
now. I plan on wiring the lights sideways, using a reflector above the lights, and a translucent diffuser below. The diffuser is my
fancy way of saying I will be using a ceiling light :) http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/
162473_4.jpg
Maitreya December 21st, 2006, 11:59 PM

Copying a book is easy. Getting rid of faded edges is complicated. Stopping glare from happening is hell.
Megalomania, do you think this "DIY of the DIY" will reduce glare from books with glossy pages?

No, glare from glossy pages is a very persistent problem. Getting the right lighting angle can reduce it, and even eliminate it.
Photographers have their tricks for photographing reflective items, like gems for example. I think the lightbox, or light tent, is
the prevailing solution.
megalomania January 7th, 2008, 07:25 PM

Atiz, the book scanner company, released a new more affordable book scanner in November of 2007. The BookSnap retails for
$1600, not including the two digital cameras required to work the machine. This book scanner is intended to be affordable by
average consumers. Many might think $1600 is a bit steep for something like this considering you still have to supply the
cameras, but I think it is a considerable improvement over any existing system. The next most affordable system is the
BookDrive DIY at $4500, again sans cameras. Atiz is marketing the BookSnap as a book ripper, reminiscent of DVD ripping,
not the damaging kind of ripping.
The price is still a bit high considering it is a fancy camera stand with sliding clear platen and book cradle, with some lights
thrown in. Engineering wise it looks quite sturdy and well built, but $400 would be a better value. The BookSnap is manually
operated and it looks to be essentially a cheaper more refined version of the BookDrive.
I regret that I have been slacking off with building my own version of the BookDrive. I bought my linear slide months ago, I
have the lights half wired in the lab, an d I have all the brackets and lumbe r for the frame. I just haven t bothered to put the
damn thing together. I never did hear back from the plastic vendor about how much the platen would cost me, so I guess
that s where I have been stuck, but I could still build the rest. I m no t really me ch anically inclined, and I do nt have all that
many tools of my own, so progress has been slow.
I found another website in October where a guy posted about his DIY book cradle and experiences with using a digital camera
to scan books. His methods and solutions read very much like my own. His cradle looks much nicer than mine, but it is not a
sliding one like I built: http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13848
Atiz has a very nice animated gif illustrating the importance of using a moveable cradle. A picture is worth a thousand words,
and the image explains the process better than I could with ten pages of writing.
http://booksnap.atiz.com/image/how_to_scan/18.gif
Momentum is gathering in the DIY book scanning movement. Software appz are still lagging behind unfortunately. In
another few years people will be scanning everything they can get their hands on and putting the results on the Internet. I
foresee libraries and universities buying these and charging patrons a small fee to scan books, and then the library will
k e e p the digital copy in its archive. Free labor that way I also foresee the death of printed textb ooks as students scan and
exchange books in droves prompting publishers to force universities to charge mandatory fees for every student enrolled in a
class. The publishers will make even more staggering profits by forcing everyone to buy electronic editions, which cost just as
much as print editions, but which cannot be sold back or transferred. Publishers will mandate outrageous prices and eliminate
the used book trade altogether. Students will pirate the ebooks initially, but publishers will extort the money directly from the
universities, who will in turn charge a textbook fee as part of the cost of tuition. Student loans and grants will end up
subsidizing much of this cost, and the taxpayer ends up making the publishers even more obscenely wealthy than they are
now.
This will happen with or without piracy. They are greedy, ebooks are more profitable, and they have no compunction about
using unethical and illegal means to steal your money. The phantom specter of book piracy is just a smokescreen to lull the
brainwashed sh eep in to towing the copyrights are good line. Indee d only with piracy do we h ave a ch ance of avoiding this
bleak future. If people stop paying money for books, the publishing industry will collapse and be forced to correct its vile ways.
Without the money to bribe lawmakers into passing copyright laws favorable only to publishers, the will of the people might
just be heard and the current criminal copyrights laws be repealed.
But I digres s Hopefully very soon I will get my act together and finish building my book scanner. It may not look pretty, but it
should do exactly what the BookDrive and BookSnap do for less than $100. I do wish now I would have kept better track of
my expenses on this thing. The linear slide cost about $45, the wood, brackets, and drawer slider about $20, the light
sockets and wire nuts less than $10 (special thanks to a maintenance worker who generously donated the wires on behalf of
my former employer :D ), some black fabric cost me a few dollars, and the compact fluorescent light bulbs were about $4
each for 7 bulbs. I bought 7 bulbs originally, but for the house, not the camera. Two bulbs are already broken by accident. I
originally planned to use 5 bulbs, but now I am up to 7. This ma y prove to be overkill, we shall see. That s a nother $30 for
bulbs. I built a platen out of clear acrylic and wooden dowels, but it was flimsy, so I scrapped it. I ended up scratching the
plastic which makes it worthless now. There is another $12 down the drain. Who knows how much it will cost me to have a
plastics company custom cut and bend a new platen, $50 I imagine, maybe $25. I might go with glass instead, the
additional weight flattens book pages better. I need to build a frame and slider for the platen too. I hope to recycle the
drawer slide for this now that I have a linear slide. I already had a tripod head, some 2x4 lumber, and a dowel rod for the
camera mount, so tha t didn t me anything. I s pent a few dollars on various screws , nuts, washers, an d thread ed rod for the
camera mount.
As you see from the list of expenses it will end up costing about $150 to build this thing from scratch, most of which is the
linear slide and lightbulbs. I got the linear slide used from ebay, it was probably $200 originally. The average selling price of
linear slides on ebay is $50 for the size I wanted. There are cheaper ones, around $30, but those have a very short length
of tra vel. I wanted e nough length of travel to accom modate thick books with a margin o f safety to boot, so I bought a 12
slide. My minimum requirem ent was 9 but you take what you can get on ebay.
Then there is the cost of the camera equipment. I wasted more money than I would have liked on camera equipment, but at
lea st I can use it for family p hotos and the like. I wouldn t mind photographing some nud es Since most people have digital
camera s already, it s n ot quite fair to factor in the camera cost for a camera scanner. Still, they are a very expensive
component, especially if you use two at a time.
Now that I have added all this up I am a little bit discouraged. What kind of nut would spend this kind of money just to scan
some books? I have to keep my eye on the prize. This method saves considerable time vs flatbed scanners, the camera costs
are dropping all the time, and compared to the staggering cost of textbooks this method can save you tons of money. A
cheaper alternative to the expensive linear slides, and perhaps a ready made light set, will cut a lot of the cost.
Charles Owlen Picket January 8th, 2008, 10:03 AM

No brown nosing shit here...this seriously is one of the better and more productive presentations I have seen. I have a keen
interest in this topic (as you know) and this was very well thought out. I think we share a similar love.
I think I'm going to make the plunge and start one myself. I have the time (or will quite soon) and this presentation just got
me hooked!
What's more, I totally agree that ebook profiteering is a joke. But we all saw it coming as people don't treasure the book-
makers art nor for that matter does the public read. It's a student's domain and student's are ripe for the picking. ...Now,
when someone makes a "notebook-laptop concept" designed to "read" or present a pdf file in a book-like manner and sell
that for under $20.....that will make a mint!
FUTI January 23rd, 2008, 03:19 PM

Mega I wasn't visiting forum in a long time and since that polite warning about lack of posting in a long period on top of page
caused a sense of guilt I remembered this post about planetary camera. I think you had problems with lights and wanted to
make some standardized set of bulbs set around the "gadget" shown on that photo. I'm just curious did you take into
consideration "angel eyes";) - CCFL rings that I think you could place around objective of that camera. I guess that incoming
angle of light to paper can be important on those glossy paper some books are printed (and the way I see it the sharper the
angle light-page-camera lens the better) and also CCFL looks more diffuse to me not to mention that it use less power for the
same light output. I see those for sale on the net but alas I live in a shithole country inside the shoebox with internet.

I purchased a ring light on ebay for my camera when I bought it, but I got ripped off. Anyone who sells macro ring lights for
Canon Rebel cammers is a scammer, but not one that technically violates the rules. They sell these in the digital camera
sections, advertise them for Rebels, but they fail to mention they do not work with DIGITAL rebels, only the film cameras. Who
buys a film camera? The light works, it flashes, but the electronics are incompatible with digital Rebels.
I am in the bad habit of letting a package sit around for a few weeks, sometimes months, before I open it depending on the
item. While I did open the package, I did not have immediate need of the light, so I never tested. I only found out some
time later, after any reasonable return date, that my light was useless and I had been scammed.
This waste of $150 so disgusted me that I will never buy anything off ebay that I can't get at a store on online vendor. You
often have no recourse to return crap to ebay sellers, and almost all of them are scammers. Those bastards (sellers, not ebay
itself) need to be held to the same accountability as a retail store if they are going to be "power venders" or whatever they call
themselves. They are nothing but fly by night scammers.
A ringlight that would work with my Canon Rebel XT would actually cost $250-$300, so screw that. This is why I decided to
make my own light. My current design, a parody of the Atiz BookDrive DIY, does not require the lights to be near the lens.
If I could draw a picture in Inventor Pro (that's another question coming up) I could easily show you in simple terms, but I
can't draw, or use drawing software, so I will use the thousand words :)
Book pages are too reflective, using a glass platen makes the reflection unbearable. Photographing glass is tricky because of
reflections, but there are tricks. You cannot have the light firing down at the surface being photographed with the same, or
close, angle that the lens is. This means a ring light is worthless. If you do not use a glass cover, and you do not photography
shiny book pages (most new books are shiny, color books anr shiny, magazines are shiny, old books are not shiny) you can
use a ringlight.
To avoid a reflection off of the glass the angle of the light has to be 30, 40, 50 degrees or more away from the lens of the
camera. My setup has the light directly above the book, the camera is off to the side at a 50 degree angle or something like
that...
I can't describe this in words, you just have to see it to understand. I am a visual person, I need a picture...

I still shoot 35mm film. I wish I'd have known I would have said something. I even have a Cannon. - You have to REALLY be
sharp with eBay and shit like that; they really WILL sell shit - insinuating that it's workable for both types, etc. One MAJOR
reason why I still shoot film is the volume of lens I have. You have to check everything for cameras....(But also having a
darkroom is a good method to maintain a quantity of chemicals as well.)
What's more...IT WAS AN EXPERIENCE EXACTLY LIKE THAT THAT CAUSED ME TO CHUCK eBay. I really DON'T buy off that thing
anymore. If it was me - I'd try to get my $ back. I hate it when they don't add one damn line like "works for film (or digital)"
in the ad.

Here is a schematic picture of the BookDrive (see attached image). Notice how the camera is angled, being eactly
perpendicular to the surface of the page+glass, but the lights are in the center (not actually visible in this picture).
My book cradle holds the book open at a 100 degree angle, so the camera is angled 50 degrees with respect to the horizontal
surface and the lights. At this angle reflections are minimized, at least I hope they are since I am not done building the
platen.
When I used lights on my basic setup I had to angle them to keep reflections from bouncing into the lens. The camera picks
up a bright blob, the reflection of the bulb, the gets less and less the greater the angle, until it no longer covers the text. My
new lights will have a diffuser to minimize and point reflections that obscure text. The diffuser also evens out the illumination
on the page. I had a hell of a time editing pages when I first started doing this because of uneven illumination.
I am actually almost done with my lights, by the way. They are fully wired, everything works! I now have a few finishing touches
to add. I have to get more CF bulbs because I don't have enough anymore. The bulbs I bought some time ago are now being
used to light my bedroom, hallways, bathroom... :)
Right now I need to add hooks to the lights so I can hang it from the as yet unbuilt stand, I need to build the diffuser cover,
and I need to get new CF bulbs.
I did a little more research on using compact fluorescent lights for photography work recently. Photographers who use the
lights recommend a color temperature of 5000K, which corresponds to "daylight" light. I didn't see anyone suggest using the
6400K bulbs, but I didn't see anyone discourage their use either. Most CF bulbs you get at the hardware are the soft light,
which needs color correction. The 6400K lights are a little on the blue side and might need corrected. 5000K is supposed to be
closer to white, and not require any color correction.
I am going to try the Litetronics Neolite brand of bulbs. They are a bit more expensive than hardware store brands (usually
GE), but I can't find higher wattage daylight CF bulbs in my area. The Neolite brand sem to be of better quality, they have the
lowest mercury content of any CF bulb (I hate mercury on general principle), and they have the highest lumen output per watt.
The cheapo hardware store bulbs seem to burn out if turned on and off too much, have inconsistent light output per bulb,
have a less accurate color spectrum, and in general suck. Since this is photography, not my living room, I want to get
something a little better. The Neolites are actually only about $1.50-$2 more per bulb vs what I can buy at the store (factoring
in shipping vs tax).
I have been racking my brain recently trying to figure out what to use as a diffuser. Professional photography umbrellas cost
a fortune considering they are just umbrellas with nylon sheet over the front. I could buy an umbrella, but the thought of
cutting and modifying all those wires seemed daunting. I next thought I could get a metal bowl, which is both reflective and
heat dissipative, but when I priced them at Wal Mart the big ones were rather expensive. A plastic bowl might hold in too
much h eat. I don t think there really is a bowl large enou gh, besides I didn t relish the thou ght of cutting off the bottom of a
stainless steel bowl anyway. Then I thought why not use a lampshade? I checked out some lampshades, which are all too
small and very expensive, but I can easily build my own.
With an old wire hanger or two I will form the basic shape of my parabolic reflector. Hangers, like lampshades, use a stiff wire
that will hold it shape. I could buy a lamp s h a d e and reshape it, but I d idn t find any black ones wh ere I could reuse the
material. I will go to Goodwill or something and get a nice black fabric to cover the reflector. I think a heavier fabric, like the
kind used on lampshades, would offer better heat resistance, and be breathable to let heat out. Or rather I should say my
mom will be getting the fabric and stitching the reflector since I am drafting her for this part of the machine. She likes sowing
and cra ft stuff. I don t have even so much as a needle, le t alone a sowing m achine, or the skill to use it.
Once the light reflector is done I will cover the inside with aluminum foil. I read one photographers caution that most of the
light from CF bulbs goes sideways, which seems accurate in my experience. Since my bulbs point straight down, a reflective
surface on the ins ide can t hurt. Now I only ha ve to figure out what material I will use as the actual diffu ser. I was thinking
about several layers of tissue paper. Something like a pillowcase or bed sheet might be a little loose in the weave letting
pinpricks of light through. The area to be covered is too large to use milk jug plastic without taping and gluing bits together
(creatin g shadows). I could get some n ylon fabric like th e photography diffusers use, but I don t kno w if a fabric s tore carries
such a thing (me being new to the whole fabric domain, I never took mental stock of what is available at such stores). Plastic
bags are to o thin (n ot enough diffusion) and crinkly (introduces shadows). A white plastic garbage mig ht work I will start with
the tissue paper first.
I decided to skip having a plastic company cut and bend some acrylic plastic for my platen. I think glass has a superior
weight and heft to flatten book pages better compared to plastic. The heavier platen should also make the cradle slide
bette r when it is lowered. I don t really like the ant-glare glass I have for my basic setup, so I will stick with plain glass. I
would love to get some TruVue Museaum glass, or another kind of anti-reflective glass, but that stuff costs a fortune. Maybe
someday. For now I bought a cheapo picture frame on clearance, but they only had the one, and I need two. The frame is
11x14, the size I want my platen to be, and it has a black aluminum frame. I can use the black back matting of the picture
frame as part of my cradle, which saves me having to buy black posterboard. The aluminum frame solves the problem of me
making a frame for the glass too. I will have to modify the frame to suit my purposes. The platen is really the hard part in the
whole setup in my opinion. I just hope I can find another cheap frame like I have. My frame cost me $3, the closest thing at
Wal Mart was $12 :(
Charles Owlen Picket January 27th, 2008, 03:06 PM

This is good stuff. I'm very impressed with the thumbnail (if that's the product of Inventor '08 - I'm downloading that thing
ASAP!). I would also try tissue first.
.....I also remember an older enlarger that used very light, transparent frosted glass. It was repaired and someone turned the
glass backward. I always though it a pain in the ass as I was concerned not to smudge it when younger. But in this application,
high quality frosted glass turned to minimize reflection may be ideal. Obtaining it would be a chore however.
As you have an issue with mercury, I have with acrylic. Anytime I tried to work with it the results were much less than
satisfactory. If you don't have to use it; don't. If you want to take a crack at some shortcuts, find a big city camera store and
see if they have older darkroom equipment. They may not only have transparent frosted glass (that is actually FOR the
application of minimizing refection) but may have some equipment that could be cannibalized. Some enlargers are quite
large!
[Just a thought] Some of the professional level shit back in the 70's - 80's would surprise you at their size. For the type of
pictures you want they may have parts you couldn't find anywhere else. ...But didn't you try cannibalizing stuff when you first
were thinking about this idea? If so; I apologize for re-hashing this issue.

I went to a local glass shop to get a pane of anti-glare glass a couple of years ago for my basic photo copy stand. This glass
has the glazed/frosted front. I don't like how the glass makes the pages look slightly fuzzy. You can only see through the
glass when it is pressed directly against paper, but even then it is just a bit hazy. I will stick to clear glass.
The use of a diffuser should eliminate any washouts from a bright reflection, and keeping the lights ~50 degrees from the
lens should limit reflections.
Should... I have not tested the full system yet. I still have a few finishing touches to add to the lights, like a way to hang it up.
Also, I wonder if someone can help me with a screw problem. My linear slide needs 3 mm diameter machine screws, a
minimum of 7/8 inches long (~23 mm). I need 4 of them. I went to the hardware store (Home Depot), but the smallest they
have is 4 mm. I have one 3mm screw, but it is only a cm long. Anyone know a cheap place to get such screws?
justme January 30th, 2008, 11:15 AM

Mega, you can get a whole bunch o' screws at www.mcmastercarr.com that will fill your need. I did a quick search, narrowing it a
bit, and came up about a dozen that would fit your description, assuming you don't want plastic. The cheapest is item number
92005A130 which is $2.85/100. McMaster Carr is probably one of the tinkerer's best friends. They are not the cheapest, but it
is about the best one-stop-shopping for hard to find parts and materials.
megalomania January 31st, 2008, 12:13 AM

Oh, I never thought about them. I have the pipe and hose catalogs, a few others with the large stuff, but I don't have the
whole set. McMaster-Carr has, what, 20-30 different catalogs all together? I was hoping to find someplace local to walk in and
grab some, but I don't suppose there is much of a market for specialty screws if not even the big box stores carry the stuff.
EDIT: I found what I need, #91420A128 machine screw, metric size M3, Phillips head, 20 mm long, steel, zinc-plated, 100
pack for $2.80. That's 196 more than I need, but maybe they will come in handy someday. The hardware store charges $0.30-
$0.60 each for the screws they have.
justme January 31st, 2008, 10:31 AM

I always thought that it was difficult to get too many odd screws. You never know when you might not have one.
megalomania February 19th, 2008, 11:15 PM

Due to complications with my original cradle design I came up with a completely new and improved cradle.
Here is my rough assembly in SolidWorks so far:

http://www.roguesci.org/images-forum_posts/book-digitizer.gif
The problem I was faced with was how to access the butterfly screws that tightens the adjustable blocks of wood that hold the
book. The drawer slide lets me pull the whole thing out from the table so they can be accessed, but my new linear slide will not
let me do this.
Also, with the slide in the center the distance the blocks can travel is limited. I only have the one linear slide, it is extremely
expensive, it puts the whole project WAY over budget for it alone. Getting a second one would be wonderful, but it is NOT an
option. Not for me, but for other people when I make this design available to the public.
I was playing around with a few of the right angle brackets I bought to connect the 2x4 posts to the baseboard when I realized
I could use these as guides with a very limited clearance from the cradle board.
As you may see in the picture the cradle now has angled 2x4 boards going all thge way across the cradle board. This is a
better improvement because I never liked how small my blocks of wood were, barely 1 inch across is insufficient.
The brackets will need a hole drilled in the side and a nut soldered on so I can add a knob to use as a tightener. The brackets
will hold the wood book supports on both sides keeping the supports straight. The linear slide elevates the cradle board off of
the base board by about 13 mm, whereas the thickness of the bracket metal is only 1 mm. The brackets can slide freely
across the cradle board, and can even be removed if need be, to accommodate a variable book thickness of any conceivable
size up to about 9 inches.
I also found an alternative to using a linear slide that I will design in theory since I can't buy the parts now. Perhaps in a few
years I will build version 2.0 when I get more money. The new theoretical design uses linear bearings.
McMaster-Carr sells 1/8 inch linear bearings for just under $14 each. I found several 4 packs of 20 mm linear bearings online
for about $25. The design does not save money overall (about $50-$60 overall for a ebay linear slide or for 4 linear bearings)
but it allows for a 2 rail system.
I would prefer to have 2 linear slides, just like I have 2 drawer slides in the cradle pic in my earlier post. Linear bearings are
much cheaper. I don't think one needs the special precision machined and specially hardened metal rods that are supposed to
go with the bearings (about $10/foot depending on the thickness), nor does one need the special end caps.
Assuming you can get a cheap four pack of 1/8 or 1/4 inch linear bearings from ebay or google checkout, one should be able
to get regular steel or aluminum rod at the hardware store to use as the rail for the bearings. The rods can be supported by
blocks of wood at either end, the bearings are then affixed somehow to the cradle board.
Using two support rails and four linear slides, one at each corner, makes for a more stable cradle. I only have the one linear
slide with a very small top surface to affix the cradle to. Ideally all the weight of the book should press right in the center, but
if I accidentally press my hand down on the side of the cradle the lever force could snap the wood, or even break the linear
slide.
Here are a few pictures I found online that sort of show what I am talking about. Notice each pic includes a pair of metal rods
suported at each end by a side piece that elevates a top plate from a bottom plate.

As for the platen... I gave up trying to find a suitable picture frame. Picture frames are either too expensive, the wrong size, or
just flimsy metal. I also could not find any suitable aluminum U channel bent with a 1/8 inch gap (to fit a 1/8 inch pane of
glass inside).
Getting a custom fabricated frame sounds too expensive and time consuming. I'm supposed to call up every metal shop in
the tristate area and ask if they will waste their time bending a few pieces of metal for me for next to nothing? It would cost a
fortune to have a picture framing shop do the job.
I found a very nice solution to this problem. Aluminum channel only comes in a few different configurations depending on the
thickness. I want a nice sturdy and heavy 1/8 inch thick metal, but the smallest I can get the inner bend is 1/4 inch. I want to
use 1/8 inch thick glass, so what to do about the extra 1/8 inch?
Rubber liner. McMaster-Carr sells a 1/16 inch thick rubber liner meant to fit inside U channel. Each leg length is 1/4 inch, the
size U channel I want. The rubber liner goes inside the U channel and the glass fits inside the rubber. The top and bottom
thicknesses of rubber, each 1/16 inch, times two is 1/8 inch. An 8th inch of rubber and an 8th inch of glass fit perfectly in a
quarter inch of U channel.
Using the rubber is actually a good thing I suspect because this should reduce stress and vibration on the glass from the
constant raising and lowering of the platen. The glass will be pressed hard against the book when it is lowered, so rubber
padding should protect the glass somewhat.
The rubber is only something like $0.10 per foot.
I figured I would need to add some sort of glue or caulk to seal the glass to the frame anyway, so using the rubber means I
don't necessarily have to permanently connect the glass to the frame.
megalomania April 1st, 2008, 01:49 AM

I completed the design of the Book Digitizer in SolidWorks last week. While this may not be the ultimate final design, it is
what I like to call the "release candidate 1" design.
I have some new design ideas for how the light is held up. I don't like the 2x4 arrangement, but I just added that for lack of
something better at the time. I think I will use a hanging lamp type arrangement. A threaded pipe attached to a flange, a 90
degree elbow and a short pipe sticking out, the light hangs from that by wire or chain. The flange gets installed in the back of
the base board in the center.
I will still have to measure that because the diffuser might require the light to stick out so far that it over shoots the book
cradle. I may end up using an actual floor lamp that is separate from the Book Digitizer so that it can be easily moved and
positioned as necessary.
Anyway, here are a few pictures of RC1 of the Book Digitizer. You can't see all of the components since this is just a screen
shot from one angle. There are CF bulbs and sockets inside the light that are hidden by the diffuser. That is not the shape of
the diffuser I want, I could not figure how to model a parabolic shape in SolidWorks without spending many hours learning
how.
I designed this in four separate assemblies; the base, cradle, platen, and light are all their own assembly files, and then I
made the final assembly by bringing them all together.
As soon as I can figure out how to export everything with the dimensions I will show a pic with those. All of the component
sizes are as close to what they will be in the actual build as I can get them. The point of me using SolidWorks is to figure out
what all the lengths and angles need to be.
I calculated a few important parameters that are specific to my camera and lens. I determined the distance from the lens to
paper required to exactly frame a 8.5 x 11 page is 30.5 inches. This drops to 20 inches to frame a 5 x 9 page. The dowel rod
that the camera slides back and forth on is 18 inches long, or rather it can slide 18 inches before hitting the support rods.
The "zero point" as I like to call it is when the support rods holding the dowel rod are as low as they can go. The camera
needs to be raised and lowered so that the center point of the lens is exactly perpendicular with the center of the page being
photographed...
Just to interject, a camera's aspect ratio means it close crops the 8.5 inch part of a 8.5 x 11 inch paper, but the 11 inch part
actually has some additional area. Since cameras photograph things as a rectangle, and book pages are almost always
rectangular, books are photographed sideways. The only dimension that a camera needs to worry about is the width of a book,
so I will only refer to that dimension...
As I was saying, a small 5 inch book has the middle at 2.5 inches. A regular 8 inch book has the center at 4 inches. The
largest books I want to be able to photograph are 14 inches, and their center is at 7 inches. The camera only needs to be
raised 4.5 inches from the smallest book to the largest, so the rods that support the dowel do not need to be that long. I
made mine about 8 inches just to give some leeway, and one must factor how far into the support arm the rods need to go as
well. I already bought a 2 foot threaded rod thinking I would need to raise this much higher. SolidWorks helped me see a
solution to this problem quite clearly.
As a consequence of the camera only needing to rise a few inches from one extreme to another I had to considerably shorten
the height of the side arms that hold the camera support arm and have the slides attached. Considering the dowel rod, tripod
attachment, and the height of the camera adds up to exactly 4 inches to the center of the lens, I had to shorten the side arms
accordingly. I may need to get a shorter drawer slide.
Speaking of drawer slides, I decided to try these out before resorting to using a very expensive linear slide. Unfortunately I
already bought my linear slide, but I can always sell it right back on ebay for what I paid for it. I tested my drawer slide under
a load, and it moved much easier. I discovered this on my linear slide and I wondered if the drawer slide would do this too.
Both slides seems to jerk and need extra force when there is no weight pressing on them, but with a little weight they slide
smoother.
Attached is the image of RC1. I found the assembly of the camera and the drawer slides in a free parts library. The camera is
actual a Minolta Dimage point-and-shoot, not a Canon Rebel SLR like I have. I could not find a model of any other cameras
besides this one, not that it really matters because it is just for show. Almost any type of digital camera can be used on the
Book Digitizer.
monkeyboy June 7th, 2008, 03:29 AM

Just ran across this over on avax, thought somebody here might find it useful.
I haven't tried it yet, myself.
Book Restorer 4.2.1.0

OS: Win32 | 10.2 MB
B o o k R estore r so ftware is the ideal tool for restoring images because of th e diversity and quality of its p rocess es.
B o o k R estore r includes numerous features e ntirely ded icated to the digitization of materials such as books, incunabula,
newspapers, registers, property books and maps.
B o o k R estore r is the ideal a pplication for managing, restoring, sto ring and publishing written wo rks.
B o o k R estore r lets yo u display and view all the images in a book digitized with a scanner.
During the import and export phases, you can select any of the following formats to optimize your files for their intended use:
TIFF, JPEG, BMP, PDF or PNG.
The Book Restorer architecture allows you to simulate a book structure .
The automation module enables you to run restore and export processing as a background task.
B o o k R estore r is must-have so ftware fo r anyo ne who wants to restore or even improve the quality and accura cy of original
digital documents.
Assistants
B o o k R estore r provides several assistan ts to a id users in quickly familiariz ing themselves with the tool and mastering its
use. These assistants p rovide vital help in the es sential s teps o f using Book R estore r.
Modules
B o o k R estore r's Auto mate module (BKR Automa tion) lets you import, restore an d publish your images in batch mode. This
is of particular benefit in the case of documents containing numerous pages of similar appearance. These three tasks can be
started simultaneously, allowing you to avoid the entire phase of image importing and script programming.
In contrast to th e Autom ate mod ule, Book Restorer's Watcher module (BKR Wa tcher) lets you process images as they are
being inserted into a folder.
With Book Re storer's Quality control mod ule (BKR Control), you can create a repo rt on the restoration processing performed
on th e images of a book cre ated with Book R estore r. A quality coefficient is calculated for each book image and ea ch
restoration applied, which makes it easy to define which images should be verified and inspected.
Image processing
B o o k R estore r includes many image processing modules. It is also easy to integra te new o nes.
Rapidshare
http://rapidshare.com/files/118657289/BkRstrr4210.rar
Depositfiles
http://depositfiles.com/files/5677093
megalomania June 7th, 2008, 09:01 PM

Oh yes, I was going to mention this but Rogue Science was down then. I actually was idily surfing Avax the very minute this
app was offered! The date of the release was the day after I got it, talk about zero day.
I tested it in Sandboxie (which I highly recommend), no viruses detected and it works good. Book Restorer still has the
annoying crash bug when trying to open photoshop, even though it lasted longer than usual. I have yet to incorporate
photoshop actions with Book Restorer since BR does a well enough job. Photoshop processing is best done before using BR
(batch rotating, cropping, deskewing). Book Restorer has a particular dislike for jpg files from a digital camera, as many as
25% or so fail to import. Photoshop can help batch convert all images to tiff, the preferred format of Book Restorer.
I am trying to write the "manual" on Book Restorer. It is poorly documented, and it is one of the most bug riddled pieces of
software I have ever had the misfortune of using, and at the same time it is one of the most useful and powerful programs for
what it does. Basically I can only document the program through trial and error of the features.
I got a price quote a few years ago. Sit down for this. The full package with tech support is $14,000, and just the software itself
is about $6,000 - $8,000. If you can pony up for this you will want (need) the tech support.
If I knew anything about software coding, I would love to make something to use Book Restorer as a backend and code my
own better front end. Particularly frustrating is the softwares lack of an undo feature. It has the entry in windows taskbar, but it
is perpetually grayed out. The developers say the feature is not implemented...
megalomania July 22nd, 2008, 02:17 AM

The build of the machine is currently underway. For the last couple of weeks I have gathered the last bits of miscellaneous
components and tweaked my Solidworks design. I finally brought together the borrowed tools I needed, the compound miter
saw, drill press, big clamps, etc.
So there I am, measuring thrice and cutting once, but real world applications do not always meet design specifications. The
design is fine, it's the wood that is a problem. I hate to say it, but even after spending 20 minutes looking for the straightest
lumber I could find, the boards are still a little off.
Now it is back to the drawing board for a little while. The dimensions and calculations of the required widths, heights, and
angles are still fine, but I need a straighter material. Unfortunately, that means metal, which costs more and requires different
tools to work with.
Providence has been kind to me recently in that I found a tree stand growing in my back yard, chained to one of my trees.
T h i s m a k es the 5th on e in as many years. I would like to know who plants those fin e metal trees After spending a few hours
dragging that heavy ass unwieldy chunk of metal through dense foliage, which for the last couple of weeks has been
repurposed as a makeshift bridge over my stream, I finally got it back to my workshop. Thank the gods it breaks down into
sections.
It did occur to me on the way back through the woods, as the day's promised thunderstorm finally brewed up around me, that
I was carrying a giant lightning rod on my shoulders. Oh the great lengths we go to for our art :)
I would prefer aluminum as it is lighter and easier to work with (cut and drill), but I can't beat the price. Now I begin the
process of redesigning the machine to utilize the metal. My redesign must incorporate the overall dimensions of the tree
sta nd because it already has welded cross memb ers (its a ladde r).
Also, while I was building the machine with wood it occurred to me to be more mindful of portability. I already factored in using
bolts instead of screws, wing nuts here and there, but I still designed some permanent attachments that would have made the
stand unwieldy. This was an easy change, but that does not matter now.
With a metal stand, unless I weld the thing together, it will have to be bolted to assemble it. I don't plan on taking this thing
on the road, sneaking it into the Library of Congress or some such place, but it would be nice to break it down and stow it in a
compact manner when not in use.
I don't suppose anyone can tell me the difference between metal and wood drill bits? I picked up a few grab bags this
February, and now I don't seem to recollect which bits do what. Is there a way to tell by sight, color, twist, or does it matter?
This is another reason why I would prefer to use aluminum, if I use the wrong type of bit at least it will not get too fraked. I
don't suppose my wood bits will last too long in steel, though.
monkeyboy July 22nd, 2008, 04:12 AM

I'm very interested in how it comes out. Keep us posted Mega.
I just picked up a pair of full extension commercial drawer slides, with ball bearings.
I'm thinking about either metal or (I think it's called) UHMWPE, a company around here makes stuff out of it, so scraps are
pretty easy to come by. It's a really heavy, durable, machinable white plastic...
Drill bits:
Basically, if it looks like a standard twist drill, it's probably for metal, but can be used in wood. Wood won't hurt it. If it has an
odd looking pilot tip, it's probably for wood only.
Technically, general purpose twist drill bits (wood OR metal) have a 118 tip. While a sharper angle, up to around 90, is for
soft materials, like wood or plastic. And a flatter angle up to around 150 is for harder metals.
Obviously cheapo drill bits are going to be softer, so while they'll work fine in wood, any kind of decent metal is going to
destroy them.
sbovisjb1 October 13th, 2008, 04:53 PM
My Uncle is a photographer and He told me that he uses the Umbrellas to reflect light so there is no glare. He said anything
white could work, white ceiling, wall, board, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflector_(photography)
I'm quite excited about this project. Now to make this automated so that it wont take forever. :D At the university, they have
full time bookbinders. If they want to scan a book, they unbound it, and place it into a office photocopier/scanner where the
pages just slide in and all you do is take them out and rebind them.

I was going with diffusers for a while, but I had trouble designing something good enough to cover the light I designed. I
realized my problem was the hexagonal base I made for my lights. This made it far more challenging to build something to fit
on the sucker.
I kept going through material after material. I built, and scrapped a wooden frame held by wire. I used tissue paper, sheets,
tried aluminum and Mylar internal reflectors. I checked out all the DIY photography sites about how they made the things. I
got to the point one day this summer where I spent 18 hours straight without eating, taking a break, or moving from my chair
at all except to pee a few times, trying to model a damn pyramid in stupid SolidWorks for my light shade diffuser.
After that sobering incident I said fuck it, and ended up buying a cheap ceiling light! It has a nice translucent white glass dome
diffuser and a wide base to accommodate additional bulbs. I still need to mod it to put the extra bulbs in. I will probably
replace the existing sheet metal that the sockets attach to with one of my own that has additional sockets.
Indeed I have wasted a lot of time, a little money, and I have a bunch of designs for the same thing I am unsatisfied with. I
now know I cant drill a perfectly straight hole worth a damn, that 2x4 lumber is not very straight at all, that SolidWorks is
really powerful once you get to know even a few tricks, how to properly wire lights and switches, what the difference between
machine and wood screws are, and where knowing the trigonometry trick SOH CAH TOA actually has a practical application.
So here I am back at square one trying to redesign a better prototype using the lessons I learned along the way

Maybe I should have asked this some time ago, but now I need your help. I have very limited experience with woodworking
and metalworking , so I do nt have a very tight gra sp on what I could do, or how hard what I am doing is.
W e h ave learned I can t drill a perfectly stra ight hole in wood u sing a drill guide. The tolerances on my old design were
extre mely high, nothing sho rt of absolute perfection would work. I ca nt get that with a drill guide, a nd the p arts were too b ig
to fit in my drill press. The wood is also slightly warped, my bolts were a bit too big, and I am limited to the parts I can get
from the hardware store (for the sake of keeping costs as low as practical).
Wood is all well and good, but I was never satisfied with the sturdiness of the structure. I decided, based on me having
some scrap steel square tubing, to u se s teel square tubing. I ca nt bea t free. I wo uld prefer to use aluminu m tubing, but at
$2 a foot vs $0 per foot, you do the math. [I do nt rem ember the exact price of the alum inum; it diffe rs by length and wall
thickness]
The steel is in the form of a tree stand I found while walking in my back yard. Some kind hunter planted the stand seeds and
it grew up into a 15 foot steel ladder with vines of chain padlocked to my tree. As much as I enjoy getting shot at by
trespassing hunters on my own land, I decided to harvest the stand and repurpose it.
I modeled two ladder rungs to use as the base since it already has the steel welded together. The dimensions are indicated in
the first attached illustration. My goal is to use as much of the stand as I can without having to mod it much. I am not sure
(yet) as to what the minimum width and height of the stand should be, but the 28.75 inches of two ladder rungs should be
more than enough width for the base.
I tried to model what the minimum and maximum parameters of the stand need to be. I have to set some limits on what can
be practically photographed to keep the size of the MegaBook Scanner reasonable. I assume the following:
MAX book thickness: 4 inches
MAX book width: 8.5 inches
Angle of open book: 100 degrees
This means I am designing my stand to accommodate a book as large as 4 inches thick and as wide as 8.5 inches not
including the margins (actual book width would be about 10 inches or more). There are standard sizes of books for width
and height if you care to look them up, I have. Most books are 6 to 8 inches wide, at least all the ones I would want to scan.
Anything bigger than an 8 inch wide book is quite rare, and to digitize would exponentially increase the size of the stand. I
d o n t wan t a map scanner here.
A 4 inch thick book needs to move 4 inches from right to left when photographing. The stand needs to be wide enough to
accommodate an 8.5 inch wide book, opened to a 100 degree angle, with 4 inches of space to move, and enough extra space
to fit the glass of the platen.
If my math is correct, the length of an obtuse isosceles triangle is given by c2 = a2 + b2 -2ab cos(gamma), where a,b, and c
are the opposite, hypotenuse, and adjacent sides of the triangle and the angle gamma is the angle between sides a and b.
The angle gamma (at C) is 100 degrees for my books. The angles alpha and beta are both 40 degrees. The largest book is
8.5 inches, which makes the sides of the triangle a and b 8.5 inches. The equation is c2 = 8.52 + 8.52 - 2(8.5)(8.5)cos(100)
= 144.5 -(-25.09) = 169.59
Then c = sqrt 169.59 = 13.02, or about 13 inches wide.
The book is actually 13 inches wide opened to the first page, but the thickness of the book also has to be factored in. The
book will form a right triangle with side b (adjacent) equal to the thickness of the book. The angle A of this triangle is equal to
1/2 the angle of the book, or 50 degrees. Angle A is 50 degrees, length of the adjacent side is equal to the thickness of the
book (4 inches max in my case). Using the good ol SOH CAH TOA formula, rearranged to get: hypotenuse = (adjacent)/(cos
A) = (4)/(cos50) = 6.22 inches.
If we consider the top right hand inside of the book to be the peak of the triangle, it bisects our 6.22 inch triangle in half. This
means our 4 inch book sticks out only 3.11 inches. The maximum width of a 4 inch thick book measuring 8.5 inches by 11
inches is 13.02 + 3.11 = 16.13 inches, or about 16 and 1/8 inches when opened to 100 degrees.
All this math tells me my base has to be a MINIMUM of 16 inches wide just to fit the book inside. I still need to be able to
move the book 4 inches from side to side. I have never seen that many 4 inch thick books, and the thickest I have is 3
inches, so there is a little extra breathing room factored in here. The platen should be somewhat larger than this max open
book width, as should the support board of the cradle. If the open book occupies a maximum width of 16.13 inches, and the
cradle needs to have a maximum travel distance of 4 inches, then the width of the stand must be at least 16.13 + 4 = 20.13
inches.
My stand is 28.75 inches wide. Less the 20 inches for the book gives me about 8 inches to play with. The platen glass and the
stand supports eat up this remaining space. This *should* be enough room to fit everything with a little to spare.
Since I can never do trig with pictures to keep track of everything, the second attached image is my triangle.

In my next step I made a few basic measurements specific to my camera lens. I am using a Canon Rebel XT with a 50mm f/
2.5 macro lens. To precisely focus my camera to have a 8.5 x 11 inch piece of paper fill the entire frame, my camera must be
about 30.5 inches. This distance is measured from the surface of the paper to the surface plane of the lens (the metal rim).
The camera is focused on the center point of the book or document being photographed. The camera never moves once set,
only the book moves, and the center point always remains the same. This is the important principle of building this stand to
begin with. Since the max width of books I want to photograph is 8.5 inches, the stand needs to be wide enough to allow the
camera to be 30.5 inches away from the book.
As this is a very complicated concept for me to clearly to explain in under a few thousand words, I modeled everything in
SolidWorks. (Attached image 1).
The camera and book form a triangle, and the 30.5 inch distance is actually the hypotenuse of this triangle. SolidWorks
calculated the actual distance the lens needs to be from the spine of the book as 20.63 inches (this would be the adjacent
side of the triangle, which is the width of the base). If the open book is 16 inches wide, that means the spine is only half way,
or 8 inches, so the base must be an additional 8 inches wide. This adds up to almost 29 inches.
Does this mean my base now needs to be at least 29 inches wide, plus space for the cradle and platen, plus the thickness of
the support arms? Well, no, which I will cover later.
The other lines are for different sized books. I added a book that is 5 inches wide and there is also a 4 inch wide book that I
did not la bel. The das hed lines are what the camera s e e s m e a ning a nything within the triangle of the dashed lines will be
photographed by the camera.
Notice that a 5 inch wide book only requires the camera to be 21 inches away from lens to page surface, and the horizontal
distance is 14.48 inches. The smaller the book, the closer the camera needs to be moved in to maximize the quality of the
image. The larger the book, the farther away the camera needs to be moved.
Why are these measurements important? Because now I know what dimensions to design the camera support arm. My camera
needs to slide up and down, and forward and backwards to photograph books of different sizes. I need to design the part that
holds the camera to slide forwards and backwards by more than 10 inches. The camera only needs to move up and down a
little more than 6 inches.
Example: I just finished photographing a book that was 5 inches wide, a small pocket book. I now want to photograph a large
textbook that is 8.5 inches wide. In order to refocus my camera on this bigger book, and to center the margins so I
photograph the entire page, I will have to raise my camera by 6.11 inches, and pull it back 9.5 inches.

I will now explain why the width of the base does not need to be 29 inches or more wide. It may be easier to refer to my
earlier design of the camera arm. Notice the camera fits on a tripod head that slides back and forth on a dowel rod. This dowel
rod sticks out some 20 inches beyond the max width of the stand. The camera can still be pulled back far enough to be 30.5
inches away from the surface of the book page even though the stand is not that wide.
The threaded rods that attach to the dowel allow the entire works to be raised and lowered. This is the appx 6 inch height
change the camera needs to be adjusted by.
I still need to redo the numbers, but I believe the old design allowed the camera to move front and back up to 18 inches, and
up and down by up to 8 inches. This should allow a very small document, like a single column of a newspaper, and a quite
large document to all fit. Indeed my design accommodates documents of many different sizes, but I only need to worry about
designing it to fit 5-8 inch wide books from 0-4 inches thick.
I need all these calculations to figure out where to place the book. If the stand is 29 inches wide, and I have the platen dead
center, meaning the spine of the book will be dead center, then the book is only 14.5 inches from the left end of the stand.
Referring to the measuring image in my previous post, if the book is 5 inches wide, then the camera (horizontally) is 14.5
away. This means the smallest book I can photograph is 5 inches, more or less.
I say more or less because the lens sticks out about 2-3 inches from the body of the camera. The lens sticks out farther the
closer it has to focus, but even pulled all the way back it still juts out as all camera lenses do. Depending on where the body of
the camera is attached to the stand, I am limited to books not much smaller than 5 inches.
It would seem 29 inches is just about the minimum width, and I may want a little smaller. At this point it is still too close to
tell. This is exactly why I am modeling all this stuff in SolidWorks. The software can calculate the exact dimensions I need so
that I do not run into problem during the build. With the design anyway, materials and builder skill are different problems
altogether.
Cobalt.45 October 18th, 2008, 09:22 PM

Will adjusting the camera in or out to suit the size of the book, change the apparent size of the font?

I designed this new camera arm (attached image 1) to fit with the metal stand (attached image 2). The arm bracket uses a
short length of square tubing with some L brackets welded on. The square tubing acts like a handle to let me lift the thing.
The L bracket to the side has a wooden dowel rod screwed directly onto it at the end. The black wheels are tightening screws to
let me raise or lower the camera arm as need be, and then tighten it up so it stays put.
The stand adds a couple of welded bits to either side to let me attach the vertical arms that support the stand and platen. This
is as far as I am so far.
Here is my question, and where I may need some assistance:
How can I attach the brackets to the base so they are perfectly perpendicular to the base? I never have welded anything
before, and I am about to learn one way or another. I have access to a new electric welder, and an older oxy-acetylene torch. I
gather the electric is the one to use for this. My concern is I need those vertical arms shown in the picture to be very straight.
The glass platen attaches to these arms and it slides up and down like a train car on railroad tracks. If it is not straight, the
thing will not go up and down.
How do I make the metal bracket to attach the vertical bits? The steel tubing is 1 inch square, outside dimensions, so I need
the 1 inch tubing to fit inside something that is 1 inch square inside dimensions. Should I weld a couple of L brackets
together? Is there some other way to fabricate such a bracket? What would you do?
Should I weld the vertical arms directly to the base, or would having them be detachable be better? Could I just weld some L
brackets, or T brackets, to the bottom of the vertical arms and directly bolt it to the base? Would it be stable enough bolting it
on, or would it be wobbly?
I may have other problems with my design. The drawer slides that will allow the platen to glide up and down will be attached to
the tubing. The slides are slightly wider than one inch, so I plan to add a short standoff so they stick out a little bit from the
tubing. The camera bracket has a gap in the front where the L brackets come together so it can wrap around the tubing without
hitting the bolts that will hold the drawer slide on.
The problem is, since the bracket will be sliding against the outside of the tubing, how can I attach the drawer slides without
having to bolt them from the tubing? It would be easiest to drill two holes straight through the tubing and run the bolt
throu gh and tighten it on with a nut. I won t be able to slide the camera up and down then if the nut is in the way. It would be
damn hard to get in side the tubing. I don t kno w what to do abo ut that.
I still don t kno w how high to make the thing , or in what way to attach the lights. I still need to figure out how far away the
lights need to be for even lighting over the surface of the page. They might need to be 12 inches away, or 6 feet high. The
arms in my picture are 48 inches long, which I choose at random just to have some starting point.
I am almost certain I am going to have to scrap this whole thing when I reach the end because of some unforeseen design
requirement. There is a lot of design stuff dealing with the lights that I will not be able to find out until they lights are on and
the book is in place. That is a bad time to find out there is a problem because that means the thing will already be built.
I don t wan t to overdesign this thing by making it modula r, portable, ea sy to disassemble, etc because it will never get built. I
can t rightly build it if I don t have an idea of what s kills I have in fabrication, and I don t h a v e e n o u g h m o n ey to waste on a
m i s t a k e n design Arrgh!

Will adjusting the camera in or out to suit the size of the book, change the apparent size of the font?
As a mater of fact it will. I find it best to move the camera as close as possible to the book to fill the viewfinder as much as
possible with the page because this increases the "DPI" of the scan (I don't have time to go in to why these are not the right
terms, for that you will have to read my other posts or my forthcoming book).
The closer the camera is, the better the scan, and the better the OCR you will get. Also, the bigger the page will be if
uncorrected.
There is a correction factor you can use with OCR software, or with Photoshop. The DPI of the image file is always the same,
but this can be adjusted to correspond with the "life size" dimensions of what you are photographing. I do this by placing a
ruler on the inside cover of my books and taking a test shot that gets saved with the rest of the pages.
The size of the book never changes, of course, but the relative size of the book in the photograph changes with the distance
of the camera. The actual number of pixels in the image FILE never changes either. By reading the marks on the ruler you can
adjust the image size to correspond to whatever pixel dimensions you want.
The attached pictures demonstrate this. In each test shot I moved the camera closer by exactly one inch. The text appears to
get larger and larger as the camera zooms in. The area of the page getting photographed decreases, but the number of
pixels remains the same. From these I calculated the "DPI" of the pages in each of the shots.
You can see from the pictures the the book is 9 inches wide, and the camera has a horizontal resolution of 3600 pixels. The
401 DPI image is as close as my camera can get without clipping any text, and it is representative of the DPI I would actually
get scanning this book. The actual image file is huge because the computer thinks everything is either 300 DPI or 75 DPI. I
can then tell Photoshop to resize this image to 401 DPI if I want the picture to be life sized, or any other size I may want.
When you put this picture in PDF format, the page should be life sized at 100% zoom if corrected rather than 3 feet wide if it
assumes the image is 75 DPI.
All "web" graphics default to 75 DPI because that is the industry standard. This is what I mean when I say using the term DPI
to describe these images is not entirely accurate. Most people know what DPI means, so I use it for lack of a better term. The
image file, meaning the JPG file format, is, was, and always will be 3600 pixels wide at 75 DPI regardless of the fact I am
photographing the moon or a spider. Most people are not concerned with "scale" in their photographs. For text it is only
important if you want to very accuratly reproduce a document size.
You can resize a document by guessing. I usually prefer the text to be a little larger, but that is personal choice. If you have,
say, a 50 volume set of encyclopedias, and you moved the camera between each book, and you want the final pages to all to
be the same size in the final document, you would use this kind of correction.
I have used it in the past because I have never had the benefit of a cradle. Without a cradle, each of my book pages is
slightly farther away, meaning the DPI gets less and less with each turn of the page. I think the resolution drops about 15 DPI
per inch thereabouts. If I then use photoshop macros to crop all the pages to the same size, and assemble everything into a
PDF ebook, if you flip through real fast you can see the pages appear to shrink.
If I instead crop each image based on the margins of the text, the actual dimensions of each successive page will be smaller.
In this case resizing all the image files to be the same size will make the text appear to get larger and larger. In fact you are
cropping more and more of a 3600 pixel image away and resizing it back to whatever number of pixels. The image may
appear to be larger, but the DPI is still going down.
For example, look at the attached images. The widths of the image files are all identical, but the text appears to get smaller.
If I cropped the low DPI images to have the same dimensions of the 401 DPI image and resized it them to all be identical
size, the 254 DPI image would be "blown up" more.
This problem is precisely one of the reasons I wanted to build this book stand. By keeping the book the same distance from
the lens with every photo, the DPI of the book pages remains constant for every page.

Here are a few shots of me trying to build the stand and failing... I swear the hole in the last image was off by 45 degrees it
seemed. The crappy little drill press I had only has about 5 inches of space to fit the work piece in. Between my drill bit (the
spade bit in picture 2) and the drill press stand, there is only like 3 inches of room. Not enough space to fit a 3.5 inch board.
Doh! The point is moot anyway since the chuck key for the drill press is missing...

I am nearly done with redesigning my MegaBook scanner. It seems a slight flaw in an angle used to compute the
measurements and distances I reported several posts completely ruined most of those estimates. SolidWorks kept the
angle of the book a t 90 degrees, which scre wed up every subsequen t calculation (perhaps I didn t chang e the an gle, we will
never know ).
I redid a new calculation part, and I decided to let SolidWorks handle all of the measurements and calculations for angles,
distances, etc. The software does a very good job of keeping track of everything and is very precise. Yet another reason I like
this software. It seemed more efficient to begin modeling everything and edit it as necessary rather than trying to figure out a
bunch of theoretical maximums and minimums.
I made many tweaks and refinements along the way, and I am rather happy with the results so far. There are a few caveats
though. I double checked my measurements of lens-to-paper distances, and I added a new measurement of a 10 inch wide
piece of paper. The max camera height for this was exactly 34 inches. I modeled three transparent measuring parts using my
measurements so I could see where the camera would end up. I also modeled a crude looking, but still dimensionally
accurate, model of my camera to see how everything would fit.
I discovered in order to locate the camera 21 inches away from the document (the distance required to focus on a 5 inch wide
book), the camera would actually have to be inside the stand. I increased the length of the camera bracket that holds the
dowel rod a few inches to allow the camera to clear the stand. I also increased the length of the dowel to 14 inches to allow it
to pull back far enough to focus on a 10 inch wide document.
As a consequence of the camera being to the side of the stand side arm, but still needing to focus on the center of the cradle,
I moved the side arm forward 2.5 inches. I also moved the cradle itself back an inch. This means the brackets that attach the
platen to the stand are not in the center of mass, but are moved forward. This should make lifting the platen a little easier
because the handle is in the front, although I may have to weight the handle portion to balance the platen better. Both of
these design features are exactly what I wanted to include. The weight of the platen as is may not be sufficient to flatten a
book, so adding weight to the thing is a good thing.
I have attached a picture gallery of the assembly as I have designed it right now. A few components are still missing, or not
positioned correctly.
The platen, obviously, is not connected to the drawer slides because I am still unsure where and how I want to affix it. This will
depend on what materials I have available when the time comes, but will probably be similar to what I have, except the
brackets will be wide enough to connect to the slides.
The right support arm of the stand is still in the center, only the left arm is moved forward. I d idn t wan t to change the right
side until I was certain where to put the left side.
The cradle as pictured is not exactly in the center, I shifted it slightly to the left to represent where a single piece of paper
would go. T he cradle assembly in Solid Works is moveable, bu t when I bring an ything in a s a subassembly it can t move. It is
far easier to just nudge the cradle over rather than edit the original parts. For an actual piece of paper the two V shaped book
supports would be together, not with a one inch gap like in the picture. That gap is where the spine of a book would go, a one
inch thick book in the case of the picture.
I still have not modeled the lights, nor how the lights will be connected to the rest of the stand. The highest the camera
bracket needs to be on the stand is just under 22 inches, even though I currently have the side supports 36 inches high. At
some point the lights will attach to the top of those side supports.
I modeled the drawer slides attached to the side support with inch nuts acting as standoffs. This may actually be
unnecessary because the camera bracket at its lowest (for a 5 inch wide book) is still a little shy from hitting the slides.
However, I don t think the model of the slides I us ed is exactly the same as the slid es I have as I grabbed that particular
part from a website. It still may be necessary to go a little lower to photograph a document even smaller than 5 inches wide,
so it is still a useful to include. In fact, I may increase the length of the standoffs even more to avoid having the brackets on
the platen be too big. All the force is put on the point where I weld the bracket to the platen, and the longer those brackets
are, the more this (lever) force will be. I wouldn t wan t the bra ck et to s nap off after repeated use lifting and lowering the
platen.
I still have a few tweaks and measurements to make to make sure the design is valid. I may need to make the glass platen
a little smaller since I shrunk the cradle a few inches. I need to make sure the camera bracket can actually hold the weight of
the camera sticking out 3 inches like that, and hanging on the end of a 14 inch dowel rod. I also need to figure out how far
forward the brackets holding the platen can be moved before it causes problems.
sbovisjb1 October 26th, 2008, 11:14 PM

Do you have anything in the prototype stage? Also the error you may have been experiencing is due to you using a pirated
version of Solidworks. High end software like that often put in calculation errors to throw off users who have pirated the
software.

Oh I doubt that, and who says I have a pirated version?
sbovisjb1 October 29th, 2008, 03:04 AM

Its common enough in Software Applications; or so I'm told. I have never seen it myself though.
ssyd99 October 30th, 2008, 02:52 AM

I am also interested in making something similar on lines on Atiz's bookscanner! You post is of extreme value. I will post my
design as well soon. In fact I am writing an automated program for controlling the Sony camera which I purchased second
hand.
Moderator Note: Obviously Mega's post is of extreme value.... what a stupid thing to say. We would all look forward to seeing
your design/program to control the camera.
megalomania October 31st, 2008, 12:55 AM

I believe some software companies might cripple their software, although they would be wise to improve their security rather
than waste their time this way. I meant I don't believe my problem is this. I half jokingly meant there was a slight "flaw," that
being I I started it as a quick mockup measuring part and forgot to change the angle because... It snapped the line to 90
degrees automatically, which is usually what you want, just not this time.
hereticalhermit November 9th, 2008, 02:34 PM

I have tried some of the methods mentioned above, and have found the following:
(1) The best resolution to make this work seems to be anything at or above 3.1 megapixels. The next lower setting on my
camera is 1.8 mp, at which level I cannot read the text on my computer screen in order to apply any corrections. It may also
be that my computer is old and inexpensive, and that a newer one with a better screen might correct this.
(2) A large and heavy glass holds down the book well enough, but the iron in the glass which gives it a greenish tint also
makes for darker photos.
(3) The lights mounted at angles to the glass and above it will prevent glare. The bulbs do not need to be anything bigger
than 2 or 3 60w bulbs.
(4) The glass needs to be lifted in order to turn each page. This necessitates using latex gloves to prevent finger prints and
smudges.
I have not had any success with ocr software, but have only tried the cheap (that is, free) stuff available over the internet.
Better stuff is available for a fee. If I knew more about computers and software, I might have better success.
Hopefully, this will be helpful to some of us out there.

I have to concur on point 1. I have a post about minimum resolution somewhere, and I have a few paragraphs in my earlier
guide (which I am no longer circulating while I revise it). I tested this about 5 years ago when high resolution cameras were
hard to come by at a reasonable price. 3MP is the bare minimum for readable text. To go lower is possible only by
photographing a small area, but some cheap cameras with cheap lenses can't focus up close.
Point 2 explains why my earlier pictures looked greenish, but I exclusively decolorize everything I do. There is a color special
card you can use to assist in color correction of the images. This technique is used for accurate color reproduction for paintings,
or colored images, by professionals. I use my camera's custom color correction to reproduce white as white, but this is to
correct color differences caused by your light source.
As for point 3, you certainly need to angle the lights, but the intensity of light varies with camera models, and with camera
settings. If you increase your exposure times you can let more light into the camera, the same with widening the aperature. I
find even a room light is adequate for reading the text in the original image, but because I decolorize and convert images to
bitonal, it is very hard to get results unless a lot of light is used. A strong light source makes a better contrast between the
black of text and the whiteish/yellowish of the background, and this makes it easier to preserve only the text.
I make images into bitonal because it gets the smallest possible filesize in the resulting pdf document. I learned the hard way
that a little shadow, or a weak light source has a big impact on the post edited images. Sometimes you can't see anything
wrong with the original color photo, but when you end up with an entire book ruined because a camera strap cast a slight
shadow because you accidentially left the ceiling light on, you start to consider light sources as important. That shadow
resulted in a solid black mass in the middle of all my pages. It defeats the purpose of using a camera if you have to spend so
much time manually correct the images.
As for point 4, I use an oversized piece of glass that I only touch at the edges to lift. I also keep a chamios cloth handy to
wipe the dust and fingerprints off. Cloth inspectors gloves would actually be better for glass. I have been meaning to try using
one of those rubber fingers to turn the pages easier.
I didn't know there was free OCR software. I am not suprised there is, but nothing compares with Finereader or Omnipage.
Both of these are almost identical, performance wise, but vary only by user interface. Basically it is personal preference. Both
are "free" over at mininova.org.

And all those pesky "Stop pirating" messages you Americas keep getting for nicking software will go away soon, as a lot of
software patents are about to be revoked.
FUTI November 11th, 2008, 08:00 AM

OCR software makes lower number of errors only at and above of 200dpi. Crude conversion to A4 size paper give you a about
2MP. Just to be sure and to put things to the safe side I wouldn't use nothing less then around 3MP.

Check out my pics in post 70. What dpi you get depends on the lens distance to the page and # of megapixels. Indeed
anything less than 200 dpi is garbage when ocr'd.
I am working on a technique using panorama software to combine multiple shots of pages into one in order to increase
resolution. You can nearly double you resolution by taking a pic of half the page and using the software to combine it into a
single picture.
The technique works fine with manual correction, but I am looking for the best automated solution. This technique is more
applicable to works that need to be preserved at high resolution and oversized pages, not for regular book scanning. I would
use this on books I want to preserve, not just copy, because of the time involved.
However, this type of software gets better and better over time. I may just find one that actually does a good job. The useful
part of this is you could use two cheaper camera taking pictures at the same time and merge the images. You could get a 10-
14 MP image from a pair of cheapo 8 MP cameras. If you really wanted super resolution you could do 4x cameras at once.
I first tried this several years when I book I was scanning had a foldout map. The software did a good job, but it left a
noticeable seam where the overlapping sentences merged together that had to be edited out in photoshop.
It takes double the time to photograph a book using this method with only a single camera, and even more time to post
process the images unless automation is used. Since all cameras with fixed lenses hit a ceiling at 10MP, the only chance to
get higher resolution is to use two or more cameras at a time. Before someone asks, I know there are some digital cameras
above 10 megapixels, but the cheapo lenses of fixed lens cameras can only reproduce images of up to 10 megapixels in
quality. Consumer point-and-shoot cameras with more than 10 MP are just a marketing ploy to sell more cameras. Only a
dSLR camera with a quality lens can utilize high resolution sensors above 10 MP, but they cost a fortune. I have said this
before, the lens on my dSLR camera costs more than most regular digital cameras; it is the lens, not the camera, that gets
the best image of book pages.

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Victim July 31st, 2001, 11:06 PM

<center>http://w ww.zerooneairsoft.com/G3%20SG1.gif< /center>
A few spec's:
Weight: 3.20kg
Maximum Range: 45 feet
Muzzle Velocity: 286 fps
Rounds per Minute: 650
And the price? Only 250!

I'm thinking of getting it, and just wonder'd w hat other members thought about my choice of weapon, as I mostly snipe, and with the bi pod and the 4x40 scope, it makes a
not bad peice of kit, the ammo is the .6mm plastic bb's, just wonder'd what other member's of the Forum thought of the sport. And would like to hear any storys of your day's
out doing the sport if you have any.
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"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."
deezs August 1st, 2001, 03:12 PM

Man! You must be fuckin rich!
Here, in Hungary, you can buy air guns for less than 50 USD. The best are the members of the Slavia series. They are under 7.5 joule, but it's enough for smaller birds (pigeons,
starlings). I think 15 meters maximum range is ridiculous. After a few days of practicing, I've shoot 3 bullets to a 3cm diameter circle, from 40 meters w ith a Slavia 631(without
scope). Ok, I had to point 20cm over the target, but the bullet had still enough energy to hit through a tin. It holds just one bullet, but it is the best to practice.
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
Victim August 1st, 2001, 03:26 PM

I ain't rich, an I ain't poor, but these guns are designed to shoot .6mm platic bb's there not meant to hurt/kill. And for what they are I think there quite nicely priced.
Anthony August 1st, 2001, 04:05 PM

I personally w ouldn't buy it because I think it's badly over priced for what it is, but if you're into Airsoft then I guess people will pay for it.
deezs, Airsoft is like paintball, the guns are designed to be shot at other people and not hurt them.
What method does that Airsoft rifle use for propelling the BBs?

Electronic hop up. For those that don't know what hop up is, I shall explain:
Hop up, is when the "bullet" is fired from the gun, the barrle is slighty bent upwards to give the "bullet" spin, therefore giving it more lift, and a further flight length.
I would splash out on this rifle with all the extras, (laser, touch, bipod, scope, night vison, ammo clamps, drum mags, hi velocity addon's the lot), but im tearing between a
vidcam corder to capture the "experiments" on, or this rifle. I don't know which to get, but by the 17'th, I will have made my up my mind, as thats the date I get my money of
my Solictor. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by Victim (edited August 01, 2001).]

<center>
http://ww w.airsoft.org/database/photos/gallery2/vidstill3.gif< /center>These guns to have some hitting power, I just got a picture of someone in an airsoft game, he was
protecting the bunker from being overrun, and as you can see from the picture that, these .6mm plastic bb's can still pack a punch, the person firing the shot, was about 27/
28meters away!

That picture looks like the guy's kicked up that dirthttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
250 seems quite a lot for an electric hop up gun. You can't be serious about putting a night vision scope on that thing, it'd be such a w aste and about twice the cost of the gun!
Aren't airsoft guns limited to 0.5J muzzle energy?

That picture is taken from a video, you can download the video from <a href="http://ww w.airsoft.org/swanley.rm">this address</a> , you can legally (so I've read on these
Airsoft web pages) have them up to 650fps, but on spring rifles you need a license to have them over 12fps and pistol's 6fps correct? So the site where I got the information
from could be wrong, or these Airsoft products could be differant as they all use electronic's to power them, does anyone have any know ledge of the legality of these? As I don't
want to have to pay for something for it to be taken off me as I don't ow n the correct license..
Donutty August 1st, 2001, 05:11 PM

OK, as the resident airsoft expert (don't mean to boast), I'll just clarify things and provide my opinion.
Firstly, I ow n 3 AEGs (An M4A1, AK47 and MP5SD6) and am a member of an Airsoft club. My personal opinion is that the SIG you have selected is reasonably priced, but bear in
mind that getting a complete outfit from w ww.wolfs-lair.co.uk (http://ww w.w olfs-lair.co.uk) or www .airsoftdynamics.co.uk (http://www .airsoftdynamics.co.uk) w ill save you
more. If you have a credit card (god bless Visa!) then buy from abroad, as I do - they w ork out up to half price sometimes.
Spring bolt-action type sniper rifles such as the APS2 are limited to 500fps and full auto is limited to 328 fps in the UK. Keep your gun w ithin those ranges and you'll be OK.
Anything above that and it's classed as a Section 5 firearm (i.e. A REAL full auto rifle)
Any other info needed, just ask!

Only one, You Got Pics?! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

"have them up to 650fps, but on spring rifles you need a license to have them over 12fps and pistol's 6fps correct?"
That 12fps for rifles and 6fps for pistols should be 12fp and 6fp.
fps = Feet Per Second and is a measure of velocity.
fp or fpe = Foot Pounds (Energy) and is a measure of muzzle energy.
Unlicensed air weapons in the UK are limited to 12ft/lbs for rifles and 6ft/lbs for pistols. Air Soft guns don't even come close to these limits.
Sorry for the cunfusion - Donutty, whats the cheapist M203 you've seen? And do you think that ammo's pretty pricy for the Grenade Launcher attachment? (19.99 for 3) Can
you reuse them? or are they one shot pot?
kingspaz August 1st, 2001, 06:23 PM

donutty, w here from abroad do you buy your guns from?
nbk2000 August 2nd, 2001, 01:58 AM

For those of us lucky enough to live where you can have a REAL gun, SIMUNITIONS is the shit you'd want!
They're bullets made of a plastic shell with a dye filling that fire from REAL guns. Their full caliber and will cycle automatic w eapons like MP5s and such.
More expensive than paintballs (and more painful too!), but the realism is much better. It's w hat the US Special Forces, FBI, DEA, and other alphabet agencys are using for their
training.
The ammo is supposedly restricted to LEOs, but I've found it available through the net at various ammo dealers.
The only advantage I could see th airsoft would be indoor room clearing excercises because of the low noise and no paint damage.
------------------
"The know ledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.
deezs August 2nd, 2001, 02:20 PM

Don't you need protective glasses to play with things like this? That guy on the photo hasn't any.
How can you attach photos to the post?
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
Anthony August 2nd, 2001, 03:43 PM

Might be harder getting the MP5 to fire them with thoughhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif
The guy in the photo has a pair of goggles hidden under the brim of his cap I think.
Donutty August 2nd, 2001, 03:59 PM

The guy DOES have goggles under his hat. Thats probably the first rule of airsoft; wear eye protection. The second being always count you hits - because no mark is made, the
game relies on honesty.
I don't have any 'posey' pictures of my weapons, but I can make some!
PYRO500 August 2nd, 2001, 04:41 PM

that's anotherthing that sucks about airsoft, too many cheaters, even when I play paintball you can still see people wiping hits off of their sholders. that's why some people that
play paintball mix those silver glitter paintballs in w ith their regular stuff, that way every couple of times you hit someone they are marked with this glitterish paint that you can't
wipe off. problem is that last time I checked that paint w as very expensive. that's probably why they mix it with the regular paint
Victim August 2nd, 2001, 05:06 PM

Donutty, please show us few "posey" pictures.
EDIT: Just wanted to ask the same question as kingspaz said, where oversea's do you order from (and yes I have a visa http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif )
Donutty August 4th, 2001, 07:51 AM

Sorry m8, The Wargamers Club (http://w ww3.wargameclub.com/WGC_Shop/), Red Wolf Airsoft (http://ww w.redw olfairsoft.com/) to name a few. Check out http://
w w w.airsoftzone.com/links.cfm for a good selection of links.
Victim August 4th, 2001, 01:42 PM

Anyways, Sod the camcorder, I'll get a digital camera or something for like 70, im getting the gun I wanted in the first place. But decided to get a blank as well, always wanted
one, I got some pictures, as show n below , its a Desert Eagal 8mm blank, with it I get the pistol pressure activated laser, and 50 8mm blanks for 126:
<center>
http://ww w.battleorders.co.uk/acatalog/bf54.JPGThe Gun.
http://ww w.battleorders.co.uk/acatalog/BO8m.jpgThe Ammo.
http://ww w.battleorders.co.uk/acatalog/Saf621.jpgThe Laser</center>

all taken from ww w.battleorders.co.uk (http://ww w.battleorders.co.uk)
kingspaz August 4th, 2001, 08:05 PM

thanks donutty http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Donutty August 5th, 2001, 10:04 AM

OUCH! 130! GET GUN MART! You'll find lots of better prices in there!
Victim August 5th, 2001, 10:33 AM

I thought 126 was cheap! lol, guess not, I just brought a copy of Gun Mart, and there is a nice selection. But I've not seen the one I w ant so, unless I see it before the 17th, Im
going to be placing an order with battleorder's. And btw, does anyone know if you need a license you purchase the 8mm blanks from gunshops? Or just legal age?
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Predator August 5th, 2001, 12:08 PM

Well you can order blanks from battleorders without a license, so I doubt you'll need a license to get it from a proper gunshop
Just maybe ID saying you are over 17

I thought the same about the ID for being over 17, but thats ok as I am over 17.
AR-15 Man August 5th, 2001, 02:01 PM

NBK, where on the web did you find simunations for sell? That w ould be a great training aid I need. I wonder if it would cycle in an AR-15? Well if it didn't I alw ays could find an
old buffer spring and cut it dow n and stretch it out.
Donutty August 5th, 2001, 07:13 PM

Nah, you don't need a license to buy blanks.
I'm well pissed off now btw , I had to work an extra 1hr 1/2 and driving on the w ay back I had a fool all the way up the back end of my car!! Grrr...time to take the anger out
on a game of CS*
* = Does anyone else here play Counter Strike??
A-BOMB August 6th, 2001, 12:05 AM

Ya, I play counter-strike and firearms, day of defeat, team fortress classic, action half-life and wanted half-life. Boy do I love half-life and FireArms has it all over on Counter-
Strike! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
-A- August 6th, 2001, 02:07 PM

Of course I play CS...
Well, the problem with simunition training is that it is expensive. You need a REAL gun. Then you need a modification to use simunitions. And simunitions themselves are not
cheap.
Airsoft is fun if there is a club or a good place to play, and interested and honest people to play w ith. I once played w ith some friend in a counter strike type of game, we had to
assault a house filled w ith terrorists hehe, we even used flashbangs (reduced in power of course, nobody wants to get blind and deaf...). The good thing about airsoft guns is
that they are exact replicas of the real guns. That's why many people like them, perhaps they w ill never fire a real mp5 but they can have an mp5 airsoft gun and fire bb's.
BTW, airsoft guns fire with a mechanism w here a piston with a spring is compressed with some gears and an electrical motor, then it is released, and the air pressure is delivered
through a nozzle that pushes the bb. The good thing is that you can have single and FULL AUTO fire which is LOTS of fun, and other of the main reasons people like airsoft guns.
However, I agree with the guy that said that a night scope w as too much... instead, buy a red dot scope that w ill cost you less than US$35, look at cheaper than dirt site.
Oh, and a lot of people buy airsoft from Hong Kong as airsoft equipment is a lot cheaper, just add taxes and shipping and compare with your local prices to see if it is w orth it.
BrAiNFeVeR August 6th, 2001, 09:10 PM

I play Unreal Tournament, much better then CS !! The graphics are w aaay better and the gameplay too !!
But lately (ever since i discovered the forum) i spend more and more time in my "lab" then behind the computer (I used to play 6 to 8 hours / day, now, it's only 4 to 5 hours
;-)
------------------
"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"
AR-15 Man August 7th, 2001, 12:27 AM

Well w e have the REAL guns. Of coarse in Semi auto. We have .223 and 9mm weapons. I don't care what the damn cost is I want real hits that hurt out of our weapons. I don't
know how bad airsoft hurts but I am sure if you adrenline is running you might not be able to tell plus I would like to run it with our gear. So you w ouldn't be able to tell if the
hit is there. I mean paintball is ok but I need better ballistics. And realistic ammo usage. IMHO cost isn't an issue when my life is at stake. This isn't for fun and game and I don't
feel ready enough to do live fire with the whole team yet.
EventHorizon August 7th, 2001, 11:16 PM

Never played airsoft, and only played paintball a few times. MUCH rather shoot my .308 @ 500yds. Films cans of AP at 100yds is fun too. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/
smilies/biggrin.gif
[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited August 07, 2001).]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > An intresting W e b s i t e
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Mr.50man2k2 January 5th, 2002, 12:39 AM

I just found som e a neat website whilst surfing.
<a href="http://www.fire-balls.com /" target="_blank">http://www.fire-balls.com/</a>
T h e y h a v e a l l k i n d s o f neat little goodies, tripwire boobie traps, night vision goggles.
AfterRain June 7th, 2002, 09:26 PM

D o e s a n y o n e h a v e a n d f o r u m s t o t h e l i k e o f " L O C K D O W N" or anything to do with B&E and stuff of that nature ? NBK , when will
Lock Down be back? thanks
S. Toppholzer June 8th, 2002, 08:44 AM

yes, I am m issing this forum , too! There's a shitload of stuff I'd like to post and ask. Maybe it would be a good idea having
such a sectio n on this forum ?
zaibatsu June 8th, 2002, 10:26 AM

I believe it would be a very bad idea to have such a section on thie forum. W e want to try and distance ourselves as far away
from crim e a s p o s s i b l e .
S. Toppholzer June 8th, 2002, 03:59 PM

Surely this would be an academ ic discussion if such things would be discussed - like so m any m e m bers dream o f m a k i n g t h i s
a n d t h a t s o m e m a y h a v e d r e a m s a b o u t s o m ething else - who ever said that one would actually com mit anything illegal?
:rolleyes:
nbk2000 June 8th, 2002, 11:09 PM

W ell, having learned the lessons that you can't trust anyone (like the Traitor) to host a site, and that you get what you pay for
(free hosts a re shit), I'm not going to have Lockdown! back on the net till I can do it properly.
T h i s m eans a (DON'T bother clicking on it, it's just an exam ple) "www.lockdown.co m" U R L , n o t s o m e "http://
yoursite.onourshittyfreeserver.com" U R L . I t m e a n s 1 0 0 M b + o f s p a c e , 5 0 G b + o f b a n d w i d t h , s u b d o m ains (www.lockdown.com /
yoursite) for mem bers to host their own files with no restrictions or hassles, m ailb oxes (you@lockdown.com), library, m e m bers
only forum , a n d a l l t h e o t h e r g o o d i e s t h a t m a k e a site worth paying for.
Oh yes, you will have to pay. But we're talking pocket change he re. $1-5/month is nothing for what you'd be getting . This pays
for the server and everything you'd be getting. Just try finding such thing s as were covered in Lockdown! an ywhere else on the
net.
Done looking yet? Didn't find anything, did you? HA! That's beca use you can't find such things on the net. Everyone else is too
shit scared to do so.
Anyways, this won't be for m onths yet, so save up what you've got for the grand re-opening of Lockdown!. Though it m ay not
be called tha t anymore, but rather som ething more "dignified". <img border="0" title="" alt="[W in k]" src="wink.gif" />
And, quite frankly, everything discusse d on this Forum is criminal in nature. Hello...explosives? I know, I know, it's all
theoretical discussion :rolleyes: , but still...try getting that to fly with a grand jury.
Aaron-V2.0 June 9th, 2002, 01:41 AM

S o m e of fire-balls.com ' s 1 2 G a u g e a m mo is va ried in price of <a href="http://www.allpurposeam mo.com" target="_blank">All
P u r p o s e A m mo's</a> selectio n. Example is $15.95 for a 3 pack of Flechette roun ds on Fire-Balls which are $9.95 on
Allpurpose. Though Fire-Balls doesnt require a hazm at license.. Interesting.
*Snoops around the site som e more.*
Interesting.. :D
probity August 29th, 2002, 07:45 PM

NBK, you cou ld have a machin e c o - l o c a t e d f o r a r o u n d a h u n d r e d b u c k s a m o n t h . T h e m o n thly m ember fee should cover this
easily, and o ver time the cost of the m achine would be m a d e u p f o r . T h e m achine will run a stable operating system l i k e a
flavor of unix of course, if you want I could help you set everything up for the machine to run lockdown sm oothly. I'm g o o d
with security/sql/php/c and overall adm inistration. Also, everything would be autom ated while still having rem ote access to the
m achine. Co-location is probably your best bet though. You can email me if you're interested.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Improvised Bomb Tanks
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Arkangel September 20th, 2002, 11:49 AM

We've covered the question of where people might test stuff if they were minded to do so, as well as blast screens for working with energetic materials. This question is really
to combine the two.
My mother, despite giggling as much as me, is getting a bit pissed off with me blowing her flowerbeds up when I do small underground tests :D . (I can only test when I'm
back "home", since I currently live in a city) For bigger things naturally I have to be away from civilisation, but it's sometimes convenient just to pop out and try out an idea.
I have a fair collection of shell cases, from being in the military. Having spent a while in Armoured units, I have some nice 76mm shell cases from the Scorpion AFV, as well as
some starter cartridges from Canberra bomber engines. What I plan to do this weekend is try out a few test charges in them, ranging from cherry boomer (guiness widget size)
up to about 150g of Flash (since that's all I have to play with at the moment)
I'll try them at all sizes buried first, with just the mouth of the shell visible. I'll then try them in the open air to see what happens. If poss, I'll try to get some pictures and post
them, but has anyone got any ideas/thoughts/comments about these, especially about the sort of power that a brass shell case might contain when not contained in a breech.
The Scorpion case is about 13" long and yep, 76mm across the mouth. Thickness at the mouth is about 1mm, but tapering from about 5mm at the base. (It might be possible
to get say, a naval shell case from a 4.5" gun, and saw the top part of it off to make it more suitable)
These things are available from car boot sales for next to 'nowt, so might be a useful buy.
(By the way, this weekend I also plan to use a series of boomers and timed fuses to blow up an 18" high singing Santa Claus that some dopey relative gave me. I know that's
really k3wl and what have you, but I'm sure it will be most amusing, tell me if you want a vid <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )
BoB- September 20th, 2002, 06:04 PM

Huh? Do you mean to detonate a small test charge in a large shell casing underground? For noise suppresion? So close to ground level, and with an open mouth, the charge will
be very loud. Rjche posted something about this awhile back, only it was very deep, and had a closeable lid.
I suggest you find well tap (50' hole in the ground covered in wood) or a deep body of water.
Arkangel September 20th, 2002, 07:21 PM

It's not so much for noise suppression (although that's a factor). It's more to contain the blast and direct it upwards, and I'm wondering how strong a shell case would for that.
Pyro companies sell bomb tanks for firing certain types of charge. Skylighter sell stuff called binary concussion powder, and to fire that in, they sell something made out of 3"
steel rod, with a 1" hole drilled 4" down the centre. It looks strong as hell, and will take one ounce of powder.
My query is really to see if anyone's tried a shell case like this at all. Interesting what you say about making it louder. I'll have to let you know how I get on tomorrow
Edit: btw, I have some remote places, and a body of water that I've fired stuff in before. The water in particular was brilliantly effective in deadening the sound. This is more
so I can safely test stuff close to my shed - balls to waking the neighbours up, I just don't want to damage anything nearby.
[ September 20, 2002, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]
kingspaz September 21st, 2002, 08:06 AM

to replace the barrel effect put the shell in a bucket and fill the bucket with concrete surrounding the shell. should give it alot more strength.
spydamonkee September 22nd, 2002, 04:35 AM

another thing you could add is either water proof your charges or somehow make a seal over the charge then fill the rest of the shell with water IE:
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">|wtr|

|wtr|
|wtr|
|chg|
-----</pre><hr /></blockquote>should deaden the sound a lil (cant wake nextdoors up too much :D )
also would add to the effect :p
this would be best done combined with Kingspaz's idea though as dependant on charge size and amount of water used you could end up rupturing the shell and "barrel"
[ September 22, 2002, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: spydamonkee ]
Arkangel September 22nd, 2002, 10:09 PM

Well, tried charges in both cartridges, and couldn't be bothered to bury either, as I have some spares. The Scorpion case was the one I put the biggest charges in, and it held
up pretty well. I don't have any HE's so Flash was all I tried, however, the largest was a hefty 100g. With successively larger ones it kept punching the case further into the
soil, so for the largest charges I put it on a concrete slab. I fired them electrically, and from my vantage point, the smoke fired almost instantaneously up 50 feet or so. I don't
know how much pressure was achieved, but I'm fairly sure after this that the case could contain pretty much any pyro charge I'm inclined to make.
Along the lines of what you were thinking Spyda, I reckon the next trick is going to be having a litre and a half of Kerosene in it, with a flash charge at the bottom :D . If it
doesn't split the case it will make a fantastic fireball projector for special effects. For all you guys pressing dets, you could well incorporate one of these into your press as a
blast guard.
(P.s. Santa is now in many small pieces - no prezzies for you lot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )
Edit: I'll post pics of the shell case tests as soon as my brother develops his film - no digital camera I'm afraid
[ September 22, 2002, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]
EP September 22nd, 2002, 10:25 PM

A related question: I'm looking at buying a ball mill and want to run it as safely as possible. I can't exactly locate it out in the middle of a field hundreds of feet from my house
(there is no field...) so I'm planning on locating it in a shed and having the mill surrouned in sandbags. The question is should I put anything over the top of this? Is there a
good way to quiet the thing down in case it does explode so the whole neighborhood doesn't hear it?
Al Nobel September 23rd, 2002, 08:47 AM

If you buy a pyro ball mill there should be no static electricity .So if you mill pure stuff and no mixtures why should it explode ? Sorry for my english
EP September 24th, 2002, 12:51 AM

There's nothing wrong with having a backup plan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Besides, there are other things that can go wrong, such as powder getting in the gears...
Microtek September 24th, 2002, 03:43 PM
I am using a blast chamber at one location. It is a small safe ( about 30 cm cubed ) that I have buried in the ground with the door facing upwards. I have only tested
detonators in it yet, so about 0.5 grams PETN or RDX, but these are almost silenced. Standing 20 meters away you might miss the sound if you aren't listening carefully.
xoo1246 September 24th, 2002, 04:12 PM

If you dig down a detonatorn 20 cm into the ground you have the same effect. But, sure it can be good if you wish to recover fragments.

Xoo, that was an interesting point actually. The widget fragments were all in there. The larger charges were all in screw lid aluminium canisters. (Very neat looking, watertight
etc). The lids had gone, but the main body of the cannisters were contained, so as you say, any fragments should be recoverable from this type of container.
Al, if you work on the basis that something "shouldn't" explode because you've got everything right, then sooner or later you're going to hurt yourself. Accidents are just that -
something you didn't forsee, or were careless with. I want to test this containment, and a few other ideas, because I don't want to take chances.
knowledgehungry July 28th, 2003, 12:59 PM

Apologies to all for not searching(have a lot of stuff on my mind, no excuse but I just forgot to search).
Well now that I am in the right place, here are my thoughts. I'm thinking of a relatively large blasting box, large enough to test primarys and maybe some small SC's. I am
thinking of buying a fire safe, and filling it with sand. I was thinking fill safe half way with sand, then put in charge that was wanted to be tested inside of a smaller container,
for SC's at leats, then fill it up the rest of the way with sand. Do you have any thoughts?
Mr Cool July 28th, 2003, 02:13 PM

Sand and little polystyrene balls works well. I used the polystyrene also to allow a bit more of the pressure to be absorbed, while the heavy sand takes the energy of the blast.
It was about 50/50 by volume. But I used it in a plastic tub, which burst and it all went everywhere :(.
Certainly don't use water to try and deaden the noise, sooner or later this will break any container.
If using a big shell casing, lining it with carpet (a few layers of thick carpet) will help reduce the noise, and also stop frags from being deformed when they strike the walls at
the speed of a bullet, so any examination that you might want to do on them will be more useful since there'd be no secondary deformation.
The best thing to do in order to test simple charges would be to get a plastic rainwater collector (I've seen them as big as 150 gallons) and bury it in the ground. Fill it about a
third to a half up with sand, and bury your charge in this. If using a witness plate or something similar, drill a hole in it and attach a cord so you can pull it out afterwards. Make
a heavy lid for it by sticking a few layers of carpet to a bit of wood (so that it makes a good seal), and weigh it down from above with bricks, earth etc.
Arkangel's observations with the shell casing remind me of putting a flash charge in an old washing machine. It instantly sent a column of smoke out the (open) door. I wonder
what it'd have been like to be standing two dozen metres in front...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > New SpudGun Schematics
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imported_Sgt_Starr August 6th, 2001, 12:04 PM

Hey Guys,
I was pondering over the remains of what used to be a nice spudgun(it just decided to fall apart, The ignitor doesnt work anymore and the chamber cracked which scared the
mfin piss outa me) Anyone ever tried to used 1/4in Steel? I was thinkin of using 1/4in steel in this w ay,
Barrel:
1/2 in Diameter
2ft length(plus ABS flash supressor)
Chamber:
2-3in Diameter
1ft length
From this I was thinking of fuels and I came up with a somew hat dangerous but inticing fuel injection system, Why not hook up a tank of Propane and a Tank of Oxeygen to a
double valve(correct Name?) that would be w elded to the barrel at a small port in the mid to mid-front of the chamber, Now for ignition, Ive gotten tired of my Peizio although
when it does work it w orks great and I think it might still be the w ay to go, I was thinking maybe have a Capacitator (sp?) hooked to a 6v battery then to a spark gap, The
Capacitator and spark gap being housed inside a PVC pipe mounted inside of the chamber. I was thinking maybe make it a break barrel to fit the ammunition in with more
ease. That being it for the gun I w as thinking, Would it be possible (using a nice Blow torch) to melt down aluminum foil into like a 35mm shell (wrapped at the base w ith Prefit
Cardboard for compression and to protect the barrel) Any input? This is just a hypothetical idea untill I w ork out all the kinks and get some more feedback from you guys(btw all
testing I do is dont behind a 3ft w ide by 4ft tall Plexiglass shield about 10 ft from The gun)
------------------
"Oh Sh".::BOOM:http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif(later
in front of saint peter))
"it"
[This message has been edited by Sgt_Starr (edited August 06, 2001).]
Mastermind August 13th, 2002, 03:00 PM

I used an electrical ignitor on my spudgun, but it got w et with the fuel and w ouldnt work. I usually could get one or two shots, and that was after alot of tries, so I'd stick w ith
other things, but i might have done something worng
vulture August 13th, 2002, 04:00 PM

Take a look at the pow erlabs website and then start makin ALOT of nitrocellulose..... :D
xoo1246 August 13th, 2002, 04:45 PM

I have been looking and I'm really impressed, NC must me a very good fuel for improvised mortars, and clean burning too.
bonnsgeo August 13th, 2002, 05:19 PM

hmmm i'd like to ask a stupid question ... :rolleyes:
the nitrocellulose "Lacquer", nitrocellulose in acetone, is still an explosive after all the acetone evaporate ? because its like a paste...
thx to answ ser this question. (there absolutely no topic on NC on this forum and i didnt want to start a new one with a stupid question like that)
xoo1246 August 13th, 2002, 05:45 PM

Well, the NC is dissolved by the aceton, and when the aceton is evaporated it's still NC. But the NC in the laquer has low nitrogen content(thus not at all usefull as a H.E.,
possibly as a binder and in not so fast burning pyrotechnical devices).
You don't know this? And you are working with RDX? Could someone please explain this?

thx xoo for your answer.
yes i play with rdx,petn,picric and all those things :)

but i really never play with NC ! i made NC tw o times ans that's all.I absolutely ignore this explosive because it is really useless for me ...
maybe its a mistake !
bye and thx for your answ er.
kingspaz August 13th, 2002, 07:25 PM

well i can't explain it!
bonnsgeo it w ould be a good idea if you read some chemistry and some quality books like 'the chemistry of pow der and explosives' for example. check the links section under
chemistry pages for chemistry reading or search the w eb. i am seriously recomending you do this as i'm sure you don't w ant to be stumpy. the way not to get injured doing this
is to know EXACTLY what you are doing. not just what you are going to do and how but why somthing happens when you mix two chemicals.
McGuyver August 13th, 2002, 08:37 PM

Okay, off the NC cannon, I don't think aluminum foil melts too well, try lead or solder something along those lines.
As for ignition, I've found electrical(not piezo) and flint ignition are the best. Right now I am using a lantern ignitor. This ignitor is a turn type ignitor and can be found at Wally
world in the camping section. No, jee I hope it will light the gas, these things are really reliable.
Another thing- hooking a capacitor and a 6 volt battery together isn't going to do a w hole lot. A better way w ould be to get a high voltage step up transformer like a magneto or
an ignition coil.
(Edit: sp)
[ August 13, 2002, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: McGuyver ]
duke of hazmat September 3rd, 2002, 12:39 PM

In the past week i have made a spudgun out of a length of 4" X 4' PVC and a 6' length of 2", i know from reading info on the net
that the idea ratio is 1.5:1 so i know it is WAY under the maximum efficiency possible. But i can still get a tomato out to 300 yards without having to w ait for ideal conditions
and aiming at 45 degrees,
i'm planning on buying a 20' length of 2" and a few reducers to make a potato gun "SD" barrel (like the hkmp5sd series of sub-machine guns < img border= "0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src= "wink.gif" /> ) .Does anyone know if they do work WELL for a potato gun? :confused:
I stupidly mounted the piezo about mid w ay dow n the combustion chamber, but it w orks well as it sparks as i go to pull it tight to my shoulder (acting like commando here).
Btw, i use waitrose 'own brand' underarm deoderant, and it is the most powerful stuff short of acetylene (which i have tried b/c my dad has a Oxy/acetylene cutting torch
hanging around) but im not brave or rich enough to try a oxy/acetylene mix (as im sure the cannon will just blow )
and does anyone know the legality of spud guns in england??

I dont want to end up havning to ask a politz and being frog marched to the nearest station and interrogated for being the next 'osama spud laden' (maybe another time w hen
tony blair is w ithin that gold 300 yards :D ).
[ September 03, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: duke of hazmat ]
zaibatsu September 3rd, 2002, 02:50 PM
Spudguns are most definately illegal in England/UK, they're either oging to be classed as firearms due to combustion, or firearms due to the high power (greater than 12ftlb, by
just a bit < img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) Just don't threaten to shoot anyone, and do it a LONG way from anyw here, and if all else fails, claim its a
physics project or something.
Ctrl_C September 3rd, 2002, 03:55 PM

spudguns can be VERRRY powerful. Mine, for instance, will put a potato through 1" thick oriental strand board (similar to plywood). That's just w here the fun starts
though...bolts, chains, nuts, nails (flechettes!) and other household goodies. As soon as I rebuild my (sick) spudgun, I am going to build projectiles with stabilizing fins/cone and
sharpened rebar. It WILL be able to kill an elephant, this I am sure of.
duke of hazmat September 3rd, 2002, 06:34 PM

LOL, i dont think im in any danger of elephant attack in england and im sure that zaibatsu can back me up on that :p
I am quite aw are of the power that i w ield when i start sw inging it around, and im not inclined to allow p.c. plod the chance to zero in on me (it was in the local papers about a
frozen tomato making a serious dent in a car bonnet that was well w ithin the range of where testing coud have been :D )
btw, can i advise a plaster or concrete sabot around a steel bolt

as i have found this sufficient to penetrate a car door (window rolled down) up to about 80 yards, but the design needs a bit of attention so that a propper gas seal is created
for maximum power
i w onder what sort of ft/lb's i'd be getting......
maybe i should ask the police for a fac :p , but i can imagine the conversation as to where i keep the ammunition for it
P.C. " so w here is the ammunition kept when not at the range?"
ME " next to the frying pan " :D
as an idea for a really sneaky munition, how about a frozen carrot?

could resemble flechette (sp?) wounds from nam'
Anthony September 3rd, 2002, 07:59 PM

I'm pretty sure of the specific pipe you're using and oxy-anything, let alone acetylene would be almost certain suicide.
If you do want a ball park figure on the projectile energy your gun is putting out, do a websearch for "ballistic pendulum". It can be as simple as a slab of w ood/metal/concrete,
a tree and some rope or thick string.
duke of hazmat September 4th, 2002, 01:31 PM

im not thinking of doing anything as idiotic as holding the blasted thing w hile im testing it, i have all ten fingers that i was gifted with at birth for a very good reason,
I THINK SAFETY !!
even when i first started out in anything that this forum speaks of, i made sure that testing w as completed in a polycarbonate box that i had made for the purpose (with a
supposed blast-proof fibreglass plate as the base) and i had access to a lot of nicrome wire that 90% of time was able to reach the ignition temp of whatever i was testing
(or a long bit of string)
i may not know all there is in the field of explosives but i know all there is to know about safety with explosives, and the gold w ord being distance! :D
live to fight another day and all that.....
and i intend to test the chamber pressure created using a handy piezo electric job i picked up from a catalogue a while ago, and if it reaches 90% max pressure then i scrap the
idea, or i'll find the failiure pressure of the pipe w ith a hefty layer of duct tape (mans fourth best friend after explosives and a nice pair of swedish twins :D )
X-Wulf September 4th, 2002, 03:25 PM

Well, 1/4" steel spud-guns do work, a little on the difficult side to make though (have to rust-proof ... for obvious reasons!!).
The one I built is designed mainly to be a pneumatic cannon, it uses a piston design, but with a little modification could quite easily be adapted to propane-oxygen ignition
mixtures. Should hold under the pressure, though if it were to fail, I'd have metal shrapnel to contend w ith. Easier to locate on x-rays though.
Only problem is that this thing would look and sound like an artillery piece (and I'll probably be arrested on sight for using it, let alone building it!)
Ctrl_C September 4th, 2002, 03:49 PM

well when you start talking metal and oxyacetylene, you are no longer talking about a spudgun, at least not of the pneumatic type. Instead, it now becomes a cannon. If you're
going to build a cannon, you might as well do it right. Thick metal and a good explosive. See supersonic golf ball cannon/video at <a href= "http://www .powerlabs.org"
target= "_blank">http://w ww.pow erlabs.org< /a>
[ September 04, 2002, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Ctrl_C ]
vulture September 4th, 2002, 03:57 PM

You'd better not use copper(valves!) or silver parts in your cannon, because otherwise it might explode w hen filling it!
Mick September 7th, 2002, 12:08 PM

dam...i creamed my duds when i saw that NC cannon.
i am so going to build one of them.

all i need to source out is a hydraulic ram, and some nitric acid.
the ram w ill be the easy part, cause w ith any sort of luck i'll be able to pick a rooted one up at the plant equipment joint near here. if that fails i'll just pinch one off a backhoe
at the roadworks site 10kms from here(easy enough to steal, there only held in with split pins most of the time)
however, getting hold of some nitric acid is going to be next to impossible.

is anyone in australia able to get hold of nitric acid?
i've tried all the art suppliers, engravers etc near me and none of them sell it. short of making it - which i don't really have equipment to do so, i'm fucked if i know what to
do...
anyways, this will be one of those "backburner" projects.

i'll either get so bored one day that i go "fuck it" and find all the bits i need and build it in a day, or eventually after some months i'll have or the bits i need.
as for PVC spud guns, i don't fuck with them anymore. had 2 blow up in my hands so far. great fun for a while, but they get too weak after a while, and the barrels deform and
jam, then eventually go bang, or if you don't use it for a while they go brittle, then bang.
sure you can build them out of ABS, but you still end up with the same problems eventually and plus ABS is $$$.
[ September 07, 2002, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Mick ]

Vulture, I fully agree w ith the thick metal, the thicker the safer, and safety is everything, but the explosive propellant ... The only decent one to use is NC, as most of the others
will leave a nasty residue, or the excessive heat w ill damage the chamber. And then there's the making of the NC, nitric and sulfuric acid are hard to come by here (if not
entirely impossible).
The other problem is that if you get busted for operating illegal w eaponry, you certainly don't want to give them reason to get a warrant to search your house and find your lab,
and using NC as a prop will certainly give them that reason.
When I do modify my spud-gun into a cannon, I'll probably use an oxygen-propane fuel system. Acetylene could become quite expensive after a while, and may burn a little
too hot in the chamber for my liking. I'm w orking on a remote valve operating system, so that I can charge and fire the thing from a safe distance away and behind some good
cover <img border="0" title= "" alt="[Wink]" src= "w ink.gif" />
As for determining the internal pressure of your cannon, there are 2 w ays. The first involves some seriously expense and delicate equipment (i.e. you'll blow to hell after the first
shot). The second involves determining the inertia of the projectile, but this relies on knowing it's velocity.
Anthony, the ballistic pendulum works quite w ell, but can be pretty inaccurate if your projectile is not aerodynamic. So if you do decide to use this method, carve the spud a little
to give it a cone shaped nose (it'll help significantly). Another method would be use two infra-red "gates", when attached to a computer running an oscilliscope program (or if
you can afford it, an actual oscilliscope). The gates are connected to the computers sound card, and upon being triggered, w ill "spike" the oscilliscope. The time difference
between the two spikes is then known, and so is the distance between the gates. Thus you have the velocity :)
Sorry about the length, got a bit carried aw ay there.
Anthony September 8th, 2002, 09:14 PM

I realise that it isn't the most accurate method of measuring projectile energy, but it is arguable the simplest. When using this method I have always done so at point blank
range, so aerodynamic loses aren't going to be much.
Using a 'scope or your computer, you can replace the IR beams with strips of baking foil to simplify things a little.
Mick, that cannon video is aw esome (well, the audio mainly), but at roughly 1/2lb of NC per shot it's going to be expensive to run!
[ September 08, 2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]
Fl4PP4W0k September 14th, 2002, 09:22 AM

A teensy bit off topic... but here goes
Some of you would be aware of X Inventions Forums, and while the pyrotechnic board has the reputation as 'k3w l', the Pneumatic Cannon board is actually rather good.
<a href="http://pub9.ezboard.com/fxinventionspneumaticcannons" target="_blank">http://pub9.ezboard.com/fxinventionspneumaticcannons</a>
We really need more regular posters, so if any of you are interested in spudguns, air cannons or anything in that realm - please check it out.
Many people have been turned aw ay by X Inventions in the past due to the lack of moderators... Fortuanately, that has been resolved. There are now a few mods, Me,
Nika452 and Drac0nic. This has caused the amount of inane \ kewl posts to almost vanish.
The pyro forum still *cough* needs some... w ork.
Take a gander.
l8r,
rob
jimwig December 21st, 2002, 03:32 PM

WHAT!!! no elephants in Piccadilly... what's this w orld coming to.
someone, what's the proper procedure for
a full auto spudgun

a fail safe green pea grenade
a life of fun that doesn't involve dangerous pursuits
Yeah, you're going to have to make a little more sense than that - a little clarification please?
[ December 21, 2002, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > C entrifugal detona tor press
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Arkangel September 2 2nd, 2002, 10:28 PM

I've never pressed a det before, so I could be talking out of my arse....however, has anyone thought of m aking a centrifuge to
compact their primaries?
It shouldn't be so difficult to fashion som ething, even p owered by an electric drill. The longer the arm s, the m ore fo rce applied
to the m aterial (obviously you 'd have to balance it quite well to avoid excessive vibration), and you have no worries about
friction settin g it off, or you being close to it - you just turn on a switch at the end of a long power extension cable.
SATA NIC September 2 2nd, 2002, 10:49 PM

I think you're making it difficult to perform a relatively sim ple job. I've also never pressed dets, (don't m uck around with H.E.
m uch, only AN m ixes)but I don't think you need to go to that much trouble.
first, I don't know how you pla n on attatching the det onto the drill, but just im agine if it cam e off !! <im g border="0" title=""
alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> a pretty serious projectile could be headed your way.
There's still going to be friction as well.... just because you're no t pressin g it between two things (ram and det body for e.g.)
doesn't mean there won't be enough friction between seperate crystals of prim ary to ignite / detonate. and using a drill or
s o m ething, it's going to whistling around pretty quickly.
anyway, it's not too hard to press them 'normally' using a ram / shield setup, so why bother with a risk you don't ne e d t o t a k e ?
(sorry if i'm spoiling your fun) but I would stick to the tried and tested method, because as far as i can see, yours o ffers no
advantage.
actually, I su p p o s e s o m e prim aries m ay be suited to it, but I do n't really know enough to com m ent on that..... but I'm sure
s o m eone else will.
mongo blongo September 2 2nd, 2002, 10:50 PM

IIR C t h i s h a s b e e n t a l k e d a b o u t b e f o r e s o m e w h e r e b u t I c a n ' t f i n d i t o n t h e s e a r c h e n g i n e ? G o o d i d e a t h o u g h . 
Arkangel September 2 2nd, 2002, 11:45 PM

M o n g o , I d i d h a v e a g o o d l o o k , b u t n o t h i n g c a m e up except stuff about centrifugal bb guns and centrifugal forces in ball
m illing. (sam e for you probably)
Satanic, the construction of this would be safe, and a piece of piss.... :p
Get a long round m etal rod, and weld a Flat piece of steel to one end to m a k e a " T " s h a p e . T h e n w e l d a s h o r t p i e c e o f s t e e l
tube on to each end of the fla t steel, capping the outer ends to m a k e c u p s . T h e n you mount the round rod in two bearings
that are fastened to your bench and stick your drill chuck round the bottom of the "T".
To use it, you'd weigh your de t assem bly and put a m atching counterweight in one tube. Then put the det in the other end
(making sure that neither could drop out) and spin it up.
Length of the "T", speed of drill and duration of spin will determine the d ensity of the final product, but the advanta g e s a r e
that you would have no plunger friction (agreed with what you sa y about internal friction), you could be W E L L r e m o v e d f r o m t h e
proxim ity of the process, and it would be easy to produce dets o f a consistent quality by timing your spin.
I reckon I could knock one of these up in an hour, and if you already have a welder/drill, it should cost you less tha n $15 to
build.
A-BOMB S e p t e m b e r 2 3rd, 2002, 12:00 AM

I posted this kind of thing awhile back, first you would need a weight ontop of the prim ary and the chance of getting som e o f
the prim ary between the weight and the casing would be great and something else that I can't rem ember right now but I
r e m e m ber it later.
Zach S e p t e m b e r 2 8th, 2002, 06:48 PM

I think you would need a much greater speed than can be provided by a hand drill. unless youve got a m etal or wood lathe
flipp ed on its end, with no table, or you used really short arm s , t h i s i d e a s e e m s i m practical.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Zapping my way to nitric with a Marx generator
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megalomania September 26th, 2002, 04:36 AM

I found this nifty device ( <a href="http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~wwl/marxgen.htm" target="_blank">http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~wwl/marxgen.htm</a> ) that I think
might be useful for zapping the air as a means of making nitric acid. Unfortunatly I don't know much about electronics, so I have a bit to learn before building such a thing.
What I would like to know, if anybody can tell from the plans and pictures on that site, whether or not those individual gaps between the wires spark, or is it just the end of the
device?
It would be nice to lay one of these inside a long piece of plastic tube and have it zap zap zap along the entire length. Push some air in at one end, and bubble the resulting
slightly NO2'd air into a hydroxide solution at the other, instant nitrate maker. These don't look terribly hard to make and they could be quite fun by themselves. I would have
to build the nitric device with clear tube just to show it off :D I could even make a big enough one (two) to send the spark from one end of the tube to the other. Sounds like a
good science fair project too, to damn bad I am 15 years late in thinking of it.
If anybody has any other kind of suggestion as to making sparks, lets here em. I could try a line of spark plugs, maybe little tazer devices, who knows. I don't <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
xoo1246 September 26th, 2002, 11:10 AM

This is why we should cooperate with powerlabs, that way we would have the knowledge to assemble explosively pumped EMP weapons. <img border="0" title=""

All the gaps between the wires spark.
It does look simple, although you do need a HV DC input. Although with up to 14" sparks as shown, you could place an electrode at either end of the tube with the air flowing
through it and have sparks travel the length of it :)
PYRO500 September 26th, 2002, 04:48 PM

There are several easy ways of making sparks that don't involve voltage multipliers, In fact I wouldn't recomend a marx generator beacuse they are hard to get in too many
stages, in fact all the stages seem to light up at the same time although there is a tiny delay between them. The UV light generated from the first gap will help the others spark
over too. I see probems with contact corrosion and possibly part corrosion with a marx generator. For another simple way to get HV you can make one of these <a
href="http://63.229.238.60/kv2/kv2/hv/multiplier/" target="_blank">http://63.229.238.60/kv2/kv2/hv/multiplier/</a> witch are solid state and have no spark gaps
(unreliable) to get in the way of doing somthing like cooling it in mineral oil.
You also could take a high voltage transformer and do this but it'd be hard on the transformer and would possibly get hot.
McGuyver September 26th, 2002, 09:29 PM

Oil Burner-10kv, Neon Sign-15kv, and microwave-1kv at 1 amp. These are all transformers that make about a 1 inch spark. The microwave transformer puts out the most
power though, the other two only put out a few milliamps (not exactly sure how much). These transformers are easily obtainable. I got two free oil burners from a air
conditioning repair place.
I also have built a tesla coil that makes a 12 inch spark. It's 400,000 volts but at barely any amperage.
I believe all electrical spark make ozone. I'm not sure if this affects anything but it's true. My tesla coil produces a shit load of it.

I wouldn't recomend oil burner transformers beacuse they have a tendency to get very hot as there only designed for short use. Also microwave oven transformers are very
dangerous especially if you don't use current limiting. they will put out enough power to melt almost any electrode you have pretty fast and generate enough heat to melt
glass.A neon sign transformer might work though. Voltage multipliers are easy, cheap and repairable if a part goes bad. also they can be cooled very efficently compared to big
transformers.
pyromaniac_guy November 4th, 2002, 05:30 PM

a microwave oven tranny isnt going to be of too much use, because at such a low volatge you are going to need some way of striking an arc, also you are going to need to
limit the current some how.. what would probably be a better way of doing things would be to use a chemical safe pump to flow hydroxide solution throught a water
asperator.. the lower pressure will make it much easier to strike an arc (if you went low enough, you could simply point the magnitron at a low pressure tube, that way you
dont have to worry about your electrodes melting off!).... a word of warning about microwave oven transformers, when it comes to electrocution, it only takes about 60ma...
microwave oven trannys put out a good portion of an amp or more, so for all intents and purposed you might as well be working with an unlimited source of current... if you
have an accident with a microwave oven tranny there is a very good chance of getting killed, especially if the curent path is through your chest...
neon sign transformers and oil burner ignitors are normally alwasy limited to about 15 or 30ma, making them much safer, even though you have to worry about high voltage
saftey more....
as i have personally got hit by 7.5 kv @ 15mA i can persoanlly testify that this is NOT something you want to happen to you!!!!!!
as otheres mentioned oil burner tranys arent ment for continuous duty aplications, so a neon sign tranny would be best...
finally, i have noticed, in playing around that a dc arc will produce more o3 than an ac arc.. I'm not sure of the reason for this, or if it will apply to making oxides of nitrogen,
but it's something worth looking into...
Marvin December 3rd, 2002, 09:31 PM

Marx generators and tesla coils are good for a single blasts of high peak voltage and voltage multipliers are good for low current high voltage supplies but these are counter
productive for generating nitric oxide. What matters is the total power into the arc, not its voltage or current alone. All of these devices sacrifice total power, for high voltage
production.
1ma over the heart is enough to cause arrest, so all of these machines are potentially fatal. Neon sign transformers are good for high voltage current limited applications like
tesla coils and jacobs ladders, but for nitric you want as much raw power as possible which leavs only microwave oven transformers. Clever electrode arangements can
overcome the striking problem and they will only overheat if the current drawn is too large. This may sound obvios, but this would generally be caused by an impedence
mismatch, which would result in very little of the power being dissupated in the arc. Its very important the furnace design is calculated to avoid this.
Playing with powered magnetrons is very likley to leave the player with interesting additional problems, only a small power leak is enough to cause cateracts and high power
will quite happily cause maasive internal as well as external burns. Making microwaves go where you want is very difficult without resorting to black arts like waveguides.

Why is the magnatron coming into play? Only the transformer that powers it is required if you're making an arc.
You're right that a MOT will put a lot more power into an arc than a marx generator, neon sign transformer etc. 1.5Kw continuous shouldn't be a problem. Although it would be
a lot more hazardous than other suggestions.
Also, HV would let you deliver more power at lower currents, which should mean fewer heat problems and less electrode wear.
But is the MOT required if we were to use (relatively) low voltage? Straight 240v mains would deliver more power and there'd be no transformer to overheat. It'd be a damn lot
safer too.
Marvin December 4th, 2002, 05:38 PM

pyromaniac_guy suggested using the magnetron to provide an arc with no electrodes in a low pressure gas, which is not a bad idea in theory.
Using 240v mains with no transformer would be safer?!?!?

I dont think so somehow and there are unavoidable problems that come with no current limiting at all. Arc impedences are inherently unstable and depend on the current
flowing at the time, no limiting and an effectivly very low impedence power supply would cause the arc to thermal avalanche and blow fuses.
A jacobs ladder in a bell jar is a good way to start nitric oxide experiments, but a microwave oven output voltage is too low to make this work dispite the high potential arc
length at full extension, 5-6inches potentially, and the lack of magnetic flux limiting.
For applications that require <9kv at 3kw or more its possible to wire 4 microwave oven transformers together, primaries in parallel, secondaries in series, hotcoreing two of
them with external insulation from ground, such that the insulation rating of any one isnt exceeded. This is an example of when a much more useful voltage is produced,
without sacrificing the total power of each unit.
Low pressure sparks/arcs yeild more acid for a given amount of energy, but its essentially impossible to setup a system that gives as much throughput as a power arc at
atmospheric pressure.

Ok, I didn't recall pyromaniac's suggestion of the magnatron.
You probably would require some form of current limiting if using mains, but there must be an easier to cool method than a transformer.
I've had a belt off the mains, and know plenty of other people who have. Before multimeters became widespread, electricians used to detect the presence of mains with their
fingers. They could tell the difference between live and neutral by the sensation of the shock.
I've never heard of anyone who's taken a shock from the secondary of a MOT, and it's not something I'd bet my life on trying!

Ive worked on a fair amount of high voltage equipment in the course of experiments, and had shocks ranging from 12AC, about the lowest I can feel with damp hands, to
20kv at 1ma. The only 2 times Ive been shaken enough to count my own pulse afterwards, was one particular shock from a MOT, and one particular shock from mains.
Voltage/current make a big difference, but not as big as external circs, such as how damp your skin is (3 orders magnetude change in conductivity), what you are standing on
in what shoes, and what your other hand is touching at the time. I'm not drawing conclusions from this other than mains and MOT Voltage/current combinations both scare me
a lot, and about the same.
I'm sure a lot of engineers used to get away with testing live by touch, but keeping one hand behind back, and with good shoes the shock itself would be much reduced. Most
sane engineers from what Ive been told used the neon/resistor trick before multimeters became common, and this is now included in a lot of screwdrivers. Youve probably
seen this before, but an added bonus you might not have learned, is in DC HV systems, wiring it over an unknown supply also tells you which is the anode/cathode from which
element of the neon lights up.
All neutral wires are grounded before they enter the house, a few volts or more between neutral and earth is indicative of an earth fault. Live only should be capable of giving a
shock, so its a little less subtle than youve been told. Its at this point the big advantage that MOT have that more direct methods dont becomes more obvios. Transformers are
inherently isolating, so you can construct a circuit where no single point to earth is a hazard, youd physically have to touch both sides of the MOT secondary circuit at the same
time to get a shock. Since earth is everywhere an unisolated circuit is much more likley to give a shock with no aparent second connection. One of the stated tricks of HV
engineers is to work with one hand in a pocket, or behind their back which vastly reduces the chance of an accident in the event that the circuit is improperly disconnected/
discharged. Large high voltage capacitors are on another level of safety entirly.
Another reason Id prefer ~2Kv peak from a MOT rather than 240v is becuase the latter is only just capable of making a spark at all, I suspect the only way to make that work
in practice would be to strike an arc by shorting the electrodes. I really dont like this method. The oven transformer is only just capable of striking an arc of a few mm long,
and not really a large enough gap to be carried by air alone. A high impedence strike electrode over a large gap might work, but Ive learned of these long after my old jacobs
ladder attempts. Wiring more than one transfomer together (Up to 4 as Ive said before without overspec) could well completly avoid these problems.
In the Birkland Eyde furnace a large magnet was used to turn an arc into a disk air could be blown through directly, which is very cunning and Id have liked to try this. I still
dont quite understand how maximum arc length is affected by voltage/current effects and I have no experience at all at the low voltage end of the spectrum. In an arc welder
we have about 50v at often over 50A, which should be inherently safe from shock hazards but does anyone know how far an arc can be pulled with one of these? With my
best MOT I got an inverted catenery of about 5 or 6 inches total length, but didnt have the equipment to determine if the voltage, the current, or the air flow were the main
limiting factors.
Bander December 6th, 2002, 06:22 PM

Here's a few nice diagrams of MOT stacking like Marvin suggested. <a href="http://www.altair.org/projects/MOTstack.gif" target="_blank">In parallel</a> and <a
href="http://www.altair.org/projects/MOTstack2.gif" target="_blank">in a series</a>. With a setup like this you could achieve quite high currents for the voltages you'd
need. Plus I've found that you can get nice MOTs quite cheaply.
[EDIT]Oh, and someone that has done that exact thing: <a href="http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv/hv/exp/no/index.html" target="_blank">Jochen's High Voltage Page: Nitric
Oxides</a>
[ December 07, 2002, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Bander ]

Some nice searching, but as ever the internet must be regarded as suspect as a source of information.
Some comments, both MOT stacking methods are in series, with the primaries in parallel. The difference is in the way they are isolated, assuming the MOT core is or isnt wired
to one side of the secondary output. Both versions use external isolation, which isnt really needed if the problem is thought through properly, and the limit of 4 MOTs isnt
exceeded.
In the second one, each MOT has one end of the primary wired to the core, which we would automatically assume is a bad thing, but not so. Thats how they are supplied for
use in MO's and we could rewire them, but this turns out to be counter productive in the long run.
The second diagram uses 4 MOTs to both isolate and bias each half of the supply. The design assumptions here are that the insulation between the core and the primary isnt up
to 2kv, which is rather overly conservative. The isolation section takes its bias from the the 4 transformers wired secondary to secondary, but this is attampting to be overly
clever, it would be simpler to use 2 isolating transformers, ground the 2 cases in the stack wired head to head, and take the bias of both tails, at least in the case only 4 in
series are needed. Another problem in this design is that power is limited becuase of the underperforming isolation setup. An advantage if you dont need the full power but we
do since more power = more nitric and that will be rather slowly produiced as it is. The technical term for the method used here is 'an utter fucking waste of 4 transformers',
but if you need 8 in series, multistage isolation of some kind is the only way to go.
Ok, the 4 transformer trick. Assumptions, the secondary is wired to the core at one end (The head), the output of the transformer is 2kv, which means there is 2kv strong
insulation between the tail and the primary, and 2kv strong insulation between the core and any part of the primary. Pretty safe bets for a MOT, but we can stick to these
numbers to avoid overstressing anything. The normal way the trnasformers would be wired is straight head to tail all the way down, but this provides only a single ground
point, and one of the transformers is automatically overstressed. If we wire the middle two head to head however, we can ground both cores, adding the other two on either
end tail to head provides two symetrical high voltage cored transformers which need to be insulated from everything else to 2kv. There is only ever 2kv between the primaries
and cores, and only ever 2kv between the core and tail end of the secondary. No attempt should be made to use this method for more than 4 transformers, but I suspect the
max output power of 4 will bring enough cooling problems of the arc chamber.
This looks very simple in a diagram, but wiring transformers head to head, or tail to tail, as done in both this and the other two above, requires absolute certainty the primary is
connected to mains the right way round (the oppasit way to before), which with real MOTs can be rather confusing. If this is done it will result in a lower output voltage/power
but should not damage itself as its only transformer EMF canceling out.
I will sort out a diagram for this setup at somepoint. I would advise trying a much lower power device first and working your way up. I should point out 2 things here, this idea
isnt mine, I got it from some tesla coil builders, and that I havnt tried 4 MOTs together myself. I am educated in EE (in addition to chemistry), and this circuit does seem sane
and safe (Well about as safe as any method for producing around 8kv@3kW) or I wouldnt be suggesting it, comments welcome.
MnkyBoy April 16th, 2003, 11:50 PM

Here is the effects of several Marx Banks in use, all directing their energy into a tiny center.
http://www.sandia.gov/media/images/Z02.gif
Note: The arcs-n-sparks seen in the pic above is only 5% of the energy being discharged. What you see is just the LOSSES!
If your want the full run down Z-Machine (http://www.sandia.gov/media/z290.htm)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > C ordless Phone - Exploit ??
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AfterRain October 3rd, 2002, 10:58 PM

Quesition : How m a n y p e o p l e a r o u n d y o u h a v e c o r d l e s s p h o n e s ? 1 , 2 , 5 + ? W e ll i bring this up because, im thinking of a
way to user there cordless phone as m y fone line. Dont get what i m ean? I want to exploit there hardware , and use it so i gain
acce ss to the internet/phone line thro there phone number. Its like the beige box, but with out going out side to connect to it,
you just transm ite and recive thro the desktop hold , a.k.a charge , answer machine .
And for all you think its corny .. Im doing this , my room d o e s n o t h a v e a p h o n e l i n e , t h e o n l y p c i n t h i s h o u s e n e e d s a p w d , i
dont have. but my laptop, is in my roo m, but it only needs net access.
It is possible , im hoping, because i've seen a differnt m o d e l p h o n e o n a n e w e r m odel cha rge. and it still works. But dont have
any cordless phones. so i cant test this out - W ill you be able to pick up there line if the phone is on the ch arger ?
So i cam up with this idea.
This is what i think you'd need to do it.
1- Transmitter / Reciver , i was thinking a cordless phone and you'd just reprogram it with the freqs.
2- Scanner - to capture the freq of the desk m o d e l a n d t h e c o r d l e s s p h o n e i t s e l f .
3- the analog hook up jawn, like you hook up your laptop to a p ay phone.
See what im getting at?
This also could be good, if your line is tapped, you bypass it with out leaving your hom e. Thats all for now. Probally will edit it
later
Machiavelli October 5th, 2002, 10:02 AM

P l e a se have mercy on the poor English language, after all it can't defend itself against you raping it in a most cruel and
gruesome fashion.
Anyway, I think what you're trying to do is use another persons phone lin e by taking over their cordless con nection. Back in the
days in Germ any it was possible to drive around the block with a handset and just wait for a "free line"-tone. Unfortunately the
m anufacturers changed their equipm e n t , s o n o w t h e h a n d s e t a n d b a s e s t a t i o n u n d e r g o a s y n c h r o n i s a t i o n p r o c e d u r e t o e n s u r e
that only authorized handsets can be used. I don't know how the situatio n is in the US.
Also, if you wanted to connect to the internet this way, you'd have to use an acoustic coupler with your phone and th e s e a r e n o t
only hard to get, they also give you a very slow connection.
But if you're willing to go to these lengths to get net access, couldn't you try to run a hidden cable to your room ?

It's got to be a pretty bad raping when a germ an has better gram mer than the native eng lish speaker. :p
But I get the...hahaha I can't stop laughing "Help! RAPE!" "sut U op BytCh! taKe !iT" HAHAHAHA!...idea. :D
Seriously, you'd likely be much better off trying your hand at "whacking". That's wi-fi hacking, where you use an 802.(whatever)
wireless card to find an unsecured wireless LAN connection in your neighborhood. Given a decent high gain antenna, you could
leech of a net connection a mile away. In one magazine article I've got, a guy set up a wi-fi between his home and office, 4
MILES apart. Though it cost alm ost $1,000 to d o so. I've read on the net of using pringle cans for kilom ete r connections.
W hy use a snail slow dialup when you can leech DSL or cable. That, and fucking with the phones is federal tim e . T h o u g h t h e
idea o f u s i n g a s n a t c h e d c o r d l e s s p h o n e c o n n e c t i o n t o b y p a s s a t a p i s a g o o d o n e . 
AfterRain October 5th, 2002, 04:33 PM

Nbk, i thought about it , but m y area, does not offer ANY dsl/cable . I spoke with a few com panys and there saying latter this
year. So the next best thing i cam e up with was this. And I've started looking into wlan a bit back, but the best i came up with
was a program that m aps the signals with a gps signal, so you can see the gps location of the outputting signal. O ther then
that i've not found anything that tells you how to leech from it. And at this tim e, i really dont care till i get a new laptop, Mine is
o l d , i t s a p 1 3 3 - 1 6 m e g r a m ,2gig h/d,and the life span o f the battery is like 30-50 m in.And plus the cd-rom i s b r o k e a s s , t o o .
So , im not in that m uch of a hurry now.
And for the pringles cans, i found a link for that, <a href="http://com puterworld.com /mobiletopics/mobile/story/
0 , 1 0 8 0 1 , 7 4 8 0 6 , 0 0 . h t m l" target="_blank">Secret Service 'war driving' for unsecure W LANs - C omputerworld</a> .
<a href="http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/448" targ et="_blank">And here is one to m a k e t h e m o u t o f P r i n g l e

Cans</a>
This got m e thinking to, Do the hubs of W lans, have a standard open port or what not , so that you can find a wlan by doing a
port scan ? that'd be som e shit, do a port scan find a wlan and have that pc do scans from that area, and jum p a r o u n d t h e r e .
:) ~
<sm all>[ October 06, 2002, 02:40 AM: Messag e edited by: AfterRain ]

IIR C, a little whilse ago in london, som eone went aroun d finding unsecure W ANS with web access, and marked out the
locations where you could use it, out on the pavem ent, all over the city.
W hat a considerate person :)

That's called "war cha l k i n g " a n d i s h a p p e n i n g a ll over the place, especially large metropolitan areas. It's just a matter of
recognizing the symbols for what they are.
Fl4P P4W0k October 13th , 2 0 0 2 , 1 2 : 1 2 P M
Netstum bler. Using linux.
Easy.
Im pretty sure you ca nt do dialup internet at decent speeds over a cordless phone. O ver an analog phone, you would be lucky
to get 4800b ps Even then its pushing it. 1200 or 2400bps would be a better bet.
Over a digita l phone, you dont have any better chances.
M o s t d i g i t a l f o n e s i h a v e s e e n (900MHz, 2.4GHz)compress the a nalog signal (voice) into digital pulses. Note COMPRESS!! You
do _not_ want your m odems signal to be compressed. This will corrupt the analog signal, giving you crappy speeds of about
2 4 0 0 - 4 8 0 0 b p s d e p e n ding on the fone. This is even noticable on GSM m obile phones, whe re the digital com p r e s s i o n c a u s e s a
9600bps max speed.
Also, cordless analog AND digital phones dont transm it all the data that a modem could produce. They have filters that trim off
the higher and lower lim its of the audio signal = less bandwith = m o r e c h a n n e l s .
Assuming there was no bandwith lim it as such, a typical modem s error correction hardware could not keep up with the terrible
static \ images etc... that would be pre s e n t o n a n o t t o o n e a r c o r d l e s s p h o n e .
The error correction is designed for wires, where the odd crackle or static m a y b e o b s e r v e d . A far cry from radio.
I h a v e i n f a c t t r i e d 1 2 0 0 b p s a n d 2 4 0 0 b p s c o m m unication with an old Toshiba Luggable 386 and its internal modem . W ith little
success.
I bypassed the voice filter of the Panasonic cordless phone (40MHz), and inserted the analog signal. I think I reduced the
power som ewhat... ca nt really rem e m b er.
At 300bps, I could contact the server n o problem s . L o o k i n g g o o d .
(right next to the basestation). Moving up to 1200 had a few problem s.. random characters and the like.
2400 wouldnt even connect.
This is due to interferance, an d the telephone \ base station internal circuitry which still alters the signal. Argh.
Good for a test thoug h.
You could always try to be a l33t h4}{0r and use an aco ustic cou pler. *co u g h *
probity October 23rd , 2 0 0 2 , 0 6 : 3 6 P M

Netstum bler is for win dows not linux, and I talked to the guy who runs the project and he doesn't plan on porting it to nix an y
tim e s o o n . I t d o e s n t e v e n h a v e p r i s m 2 support yet. BSD airtools is the shizat mah nigga if you be runnin tha bee ess dee :D
Eliteforum October 23rd , 2 0 0 2 , 0 6 : 4 7 P M

W oah, freaky, I down loaded FreeBSD (www.free b s d . o r g ) a b o u t a n h o u r a g o , a n d a m just getting around to installing it. Might
have a few things to play around with then! :D
Fl4P P4W0k October 24th , 2002, 08:44 AM

lol, k
I could have sworn there was a linux version... I must be thinkin g o f s o m e t h i n g s i m m ilar. *scratches head*
AfterRain October 24th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 8 : 3 5 P M

There's a linux os , called War Linux , its for all you war-driving kiddies. W hen i find the url , i'll post it..
I found it : <a href="https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=57253" target="_blank">WAR LINUX</a>
<sm all>[ October 25, 2002, 03:09 AM: Messag e edited by: AfterRain ]
Eliteforum October 25th , 2002, 11:54 AM

I'v just downloaded it, and 52.6mb for an O perating System s e e ms pretty small, is it a program th at runs over the top of your
existing OS?
Does it support dualb oot?
AfterRain Novem ber 3rd, 2002, 11:03 AM

Elite, It is it's own OS. its mea nt for wa r driving and only that.. I dont know about dual boot .. I just have it brunt to a cd, so it
b o o t a b l e f r o m the cd. And im sure if you set it up right, you could dual boot. But since i lack the wifi, i've not really m e s s e d
with it
Eliteforum Novem ber 3rd, 2002, 02:27 PM

I burnt it to a CD and tried to install it to a blank hard drive. It didn't register in the boot seek, so it's not bootable. And nor
would it install, so in full, a wa ste of time.
AfterRain Novem ber 4th, 2002, 01:45 AM

yo. elite it is boot able.. I can boot it from cd .. Are you sure it b urnt right?
jimmyboy Novem ber 19th, 2003, 02:00 AM

the cordless base always transmits a k ey each tim e the phone is put in the base -- the key is alwa ys proprietary to the
m anufacturer as well as the encryption -- plus the phone base will only pay attention to the strongest signa l --- the only
feasible way i see for you is the get the same m odel phone get access to the base and sit the phone in it once while they are
occu pied - other than that its a total waste - just m a k e a l i n e m a n s e t a n d h o o k i t u p d o w n t h e l i n e s o m e w h ere - cordless is
getting even tougher to toy with with Digital and Spread Spectrum becoming m ore com mon - when they first cam e o ut
cordlesses were easy to trick -- just get the same phone as your neighbor and stand a few feet from his ho u s e .
Oh yes has anyone used/bought a watsonlinc? curious device the taps a phone line without having to cut it.. a regular induction
coil could never do that -- maybe a hall effect sensor - im trying to figure it out
PyroNitrate Novem ber 19th, 2003, 11:38 PM

Go buy a wifi card.. 802.11g (Oricon Gold Com bo C ard) and purchase a 2.4 ghz Antenna Grid ( $98) www.hyperlinktech.com
This baby will travel 7 m iles
You will also need an Nfem ale connector ($14)
Far cheaper than $1000
Although I assume you ave no money to spend... So i would go with hideing a line to ur room .
theone Novem ber 22nd, 2003, 08:07 AM

M o s t c o r d l e s s p h o n e s n o w h a v e s o m ething similar to pgp(som e kind of secure lin e thing)
that prevents from what you say from happening, it's supposed to allow
only the preprogram m e d o r c o d e d b a b ies(extensions) to connect to the m o t h e r ( b a s e ) .
T H I S W O U LD DEPEND ON HOW OLD THE CO RDLESS PHO NE IS
S o I a m thinking rath er then cordless phones.... cellular phones
I d u n n o a b o u t t h e c e l l u l a r p h o n e s i n t h e U . s b u t h e r e ( k o r e a ) m o s t c el l pho nes
are capable of transfering up a 1mb+ over cell phones
(you get a watered down version of the internet of the cell phone)
But you can use the cell phone as a wireless modem .
Anyway you can send mail and other various junk through it so it'd be
intresting to see what you can program i n t o t h e p h o n e . O r e v e n
program a "cell phone emulator" for the pc if that is possible.
(the cell phones cost around 500$ or so and then you h a v e t o
pay for the internet service etc etc but there are used cell phones available)
But if you know the num ber of another guys ph one you can actually
program your cell phone to the guys num ber and use it for free
(its quite easy.... most wives use it to check if their husbands are cheating on
them or not etc etc,)But you n e e d t o k n o w h o w t o a c e s s t h e p h o n e s
" a d m i n " m enu through the ke ypad which differs from m o d e l t o m o d e l
and make to m ake.
A n d y o u c a n u s e t h e a t e n n a s y s t e m t o triangulate where the phone user is.

I think the acuraccy was some thing like +-10 m eters? m ore or less and now
new cell phones are com m ing out with the GPS function (remote detonation?)
uh yeah... well thats about it..... as for unsecure lans I think all you needed was
a wireless lan card an d you were in but that was like years ago, I suppose most
of the wireless lans now have security but with a little com puter ingenuity, far easier.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Silent C o m m unication
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BoB- April 12th, 2002, 02:47 AM

C o m munication is probably the m ost im portant thing in our hobby, but often on cold nights when the air is thinner, any
c o m m unication at all may be heard, betraying your position. This new technology recognizes words being spoken by detecting
m uscle m o v e m e n t a r o u n d t h e m outh. Not a single word need be spoken it can be used with a speech syntheziser to send th e
m e s s a g e l i k e a n o r m a l t e l e p h one, or it can send the message as written text, com pletly rem o v i n g t h e n e e d f o r s o u n d .
"Lip-reading cellphone silences loudm ouths
19:00 03 April 02
Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition
The world's first lip-re a d i n g m o b i l e i s b e i n g d e v e l o p e d b y r e s e a r c h e r s a t J a p a n e s e c e l l p h o n e m a k e r N T T D o C o M o .
Although still som e way off, the phone should put an end to use rs having to shout down their handsets, even in noisy
environm ents. All they have to do is m outh the ir words silently, and the phone will convert them to speech or text.
DoCoMo's early prototype works out which words are being said by using a contact sensor near the phone's mouthpiece to
detect tiny electrical signals sent by m uscles around the user's m outh. The signals are then converted into spoken words by a
speech synthesiser, or into text for a text m e s s a g e o r e m a i l .
D o C o M o r e c k o n s t h a t a v o i d i n g t h e n e e d t o t a p o u t e m a ils on a tiny keyp ad could be a sig nificant bonus wh en future 3G

networks arrive.
Cellphone etiquette
Engineers are still developing the lip-reading software for the project. They say a test m odel can now recognise vowels with
what they call an acceptable error rate, and are now working on the tougher task of recognising consonants. Lip-reading
accu racy, the y say, could also be boosted using the tiny cameras that will be comm o n o n 3 G p h o n e s .
The spur to developing such a phone, says DoCoMo, was ridding public p l a c e s o f n o i s e . I n J a p a n , m obiles are alrea d y b a n n e d
on some public transport networks, and in man y other places etiquette requires that people using a phone have to hold a
hand discreetly over their m outh.
The technolo g y i s a l s o e x p e c t e d t o h e l p p e o p l e w h o h a v e p e r m anently lost their voice, says DoCoMo, which plans to m a k e i t
available in about five years' tim e."
From ;
<a href="http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992122" target="_blank">http://www.newscientist.com/news/
news.jsp?id=ns99992122</a>
nbk2000 April 12th, 2002, 03:41 AM

Interesting.
Especially about the part of a lip reading cam era. Attach a telephoto lens and things start getting REALLY interesting. <img
border="0" title="" alt="[W ink ]" src="wink.gif" />
I've read of a project for SO F that uses an IR laser with a voice m o d u l a t o r / d e m odulator fo r uninterceptable line-of-sight
c o m m unication. The device is built into NVD googles. You simply look at the person you want to talk to, push a button, and
start yapping.
The receiving part is om ni-directional.
There's no reason you couldn't build the sam e thing.
I'm t h i n k i n g a h a n d - h e l d m outhpiece (like a pilots oxygen m a s k ) y o u ' d s p e a k i n t o t h a t ' d m u f f l e y o u r t a l k i n g . A n I R d i o d e i s

built into the front, and an earpiece attached to a reciever collar studded with IR transistors would permit 360 degree reception.
Just hold the m ask over your m outh while looking at the intended receipient, and s p e a k .
H a n d s i g n a l s a r e u s e f u l i f y o u c a n b e s e e n . A r m y m a n u a l s h a v e a b u n c h t h a t c o u l d b e u s e d a s i s o r m odified.
T h e r e ' s a l s o a k e y i n g device that has two slidin g disk pads. The combination and direction in which you slid e t h e p a d s
determ ines the letter/num ber being keyed. It's not the fastest thing in the world, but you can do it wearing thick gloves and is
silent.
BoB- April 13th, 2002, 01:43 AM

I t h o u g h t a b o u t p a l m pilot technology, there are programs that let you just write o n the screen in cursive or print, and it will
convert it to text.
There are also cellphones that have te xt messaging built right in specifically for silent com munication in theatres and public
places. Unfortunatly it only lets you send a few words, and m o s t p e o p l e w h o u s e t h e m t y p e i n s y m b o l ( t h e m ost annoying type
on earth).
zeocrash Novem ber 5th, 2002, 04:51 PM

the problem with a lip reading camera would be m isinterpretation. this is because too m any words have sim ilar lip m o v e m e n t
patterns
kingspaz Novem ber 5th, 2002, 06:23 PM

m oving to tools and techniques...
Anthony Novem ber 5th, 2002, 06:27 PM

You don't need to catch every syllable of every word in a speach passage to be able to get the meaning of it. English is a
r a t h e r h i g h r e d u n d a n c y l a n g u a g e , a n d d e a f p e o p l e m anage to do quite well with lip reading.
AfterRain Novem ber 5th, 2002, 09:19 PM

Nbk - <blockquote>quote :<hr /> I'm thinking a hand-held m o u t h p i e c e ( l i k e a p i l o t s o x y g e n m a s k ) y o u ' d s p e a k i n t o t h a t ' d m uffle your
talking. An IR diode is built into the front, and an earpiece attached to a reciever collar studded with IR transistors would
permit 360 d egree reception <hr /></blockquote>But would'nt that trap
the sound waves ? Now if some one was to use a laser m ic, I think they'd be able to hear your side of the converstaion
BoB- The cell phone is good, but there are ways of intercepting the information . DDI, Digital Data Intercation, W hich would be
good for low tech op's. But for high scale shit, i'd not trust it, Unless there was a 3rd party to encrypt the da ta.
Also for both of the above,If you could use a custom m a d e t r u n k i n g s y s t e m that would m a k e i t a l l m o r e s e cure, Like use Low
frequency's below 30m z h , ( S o m e o f t h e O nes under 30 are used in the cb) , then make it bounce its way to the gig frequency .
<-- Just a thought, alot harder then said .
<sm all>[ Novem ber 05, 2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: AfterRain ]</sm all>
nbk2000 Novem ber 6th, 2002, 04:18 AM

:con f u s e d :
W hat are you ram b l i n g o n a b o u t ?
I a s s u m e y o u m e a n t h e e n e m y having an IR d emodulator? How likely is that? Plus, the system is highly directional. W ith an
I R l a s e r , a n y o n e m ore than a degree or two off axis isn t' going to hear shit as long as you're not bouncing the beam off a
m irror.
And the mask is SUPPOSED to "trap" the sound of your voice. Otherwise som e o n e m ight hear it with a "bionic ear" sound
a m plifier.
<sm all>[ Novem b e r 0 6 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 3 : 2 0 A M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : n b k 2 0 0 0 ] < / s m all>
Jhonbus Novem ber 6th, 2002, 01:05 PM

P e r h a p s A f t e r r a i n m e a n s t h a t a l a s e r m i c c o u l d b e a i m e d a t t h e m a s k , p i c k i n g u p its vibra tions. This is all but impossible.
L a s e r m icrophones are extrem ely difficult to set up even in advance and for a sta tionary flat surface like a window. To set one
up on the fly for a com p l e x s h a p e l i k e a m a s k , a n d o n e t h a t i s m oving around with the user's head? Not going to happen.
nbk2000 Novem ber 6th, 2002, 03:15 PM

If th ey could get a laser lock on your head, I doubt they'd be doing so to listen in on your conversation. <im g border="0"
title="" alt="[W ink]" src="wink.gif" />
PYRO500 Novem ber 6th, 2002, 05:38 PM

Funny that NBK should mentio n the "bionic ear" sound amplifier, I happe n to own one and the bionic booster dish :) .
I t c o s t m e s o m e t h i n g like $180 or so at the tim e to get it and in m y opinion you could do better. If I were to rem ake it i'd add
s o m e kind of insulation in the h a n d g u a r d s o y o u r m o v e m ent vibrations are less audiable. I've also found the dish is lacking
i n e f f e c t i v e n e s s a s I c a n s e e t h e m icro phone is not at the virtual focal point of the device. Still it does the job and h as a nice
jack for my tape recorder.
I rem ember seeing a few circuits a while back in some of m y ele ctronics books about amp litude modulated light decoders,
IIR C they we re sim ple alm o s t n o t h i n g b u t a n a u d i o a m plifier that can take the output state of a photo tran sistor.
Am plitude modulating light is a tiny bit tricker but not m uch m ore. If you have a laser than you can modulate it's power supply
and make it output the signal into the beam witch through optics can be diverged for a sm all area or recevability. Also with NV
g o g g l e s t h e n e a r I R l a s e r i s p r o b o b l y g o n n a b e v i s a b l e i n t h e a i r s o y o u c a n a i m it pretty well.
B o t h o f t h e s e I h a v e s c h e m atics for. later tonig ht if I have tim e I'll post em .
PYRO500 Novem ber 6th, 2002, 09:49 PM

I just found circuits for encoding and decoding IR light although the circuits are designed to drive and IR led and a
phototransistor, there is no reason you can't substitute a transistor to drive a power supply for an IR laser.
<a href="http://m e m bers.tripod.com/xexorz/schematics/irreceiver.htm l" target="_blank">http://m embers.tripod.com / x e x o r z /

schematics/irreceiver.htm l</a>
<a href="http://m e m bers.tripod.com/xexorz/schematics/irtransm it.html" target="_blank">http://m e m bers.tripod.com/xexorz/

schematics/irtransmit.html</a >
<sm all>[ Novem b e r 0 6 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 8 : 5 0 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : P Y R O 5 0 0 ] < / s m a l l >
SATA NIC Novem ber 6th, 2002, 11:18 PM

I think the best and easiest way to comm unicate silently is field signals. They are (obviosuly) silent, extremem ly easy to learn,
are very easy to modify to personal needs / scenarios, and can be used anywhere, anytim e, providing you have hands.....
:rolleyes:
However unlikely, with electronic methods of transmission, there is always the (if only vauge) chance of an outsider listening in.
T h i s i s a l s o a p r o b l e m for han d signals, because of course anyone who sees you can see what you're trying to com m u n i c a t e .
This would only be a problem t h o u g h i f y o u u s e d s t a n d a r d s i g n a ls. If you created your own, there would be no way for your foe
to interperet them correctly.
That goes against the whole idea of field signals, because to m ake them easy to remem ber, they have to be a motion related
to what you're trying to com m u n i c a t e .
If anyone wa nts a copy of the australian arm y field sign als, I can scan th e m i n i n t h e n e x t c o u p l e o f d a y s .
I know I've taken the low-tech, not very im agin ative route here, but I would rathe r rely on a m e t h o d o f c o m munication that is
alwa ys going to be reliable. That, and I can't afford any of the gucci gear.... <im g border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]"
src="frown.gif" />

"Gucci Gear...for the fashionable soldier" <im g border="0" title="" alt="[W ink]" src="wink.gif" /> :p
P r o b l e m with hand signals is the inabiilty to use them in the dark, when any sensible crimi...I mean terr...o h , u h m m m ...law
enforcem ent officer (yeah, thats it! :D ) would be operating.
A n d i t ' s n o t e x p e n s i v e t o m a k e a l i g h t d e m o d u lator. I made one from ra d i o s h a c k p a r t s f o r u n d e r $ 1 5 . C o u l d h a v e b e e n l e s s i f

I'd made a circuit board for that sole p u r p o s e .
Modulation wouldn't be m uch m o r e . T h e l a s e r d i o d e w o u l d b e t h e m o s t e xpensive thing to buy.
SATA NIC Novem ber 7th, 2002, 12:37 AM

lol NBK, too true. Lucky the true soldiers don't need the gucci gear.
I'm going to scan the field sig nals anyway, for personal use, so at the same time I'll look up "Methods of night observation"
which I had to teach on the weekend. A lot of junk about how the eye works, but focused on how to improve night vision, and
how to avoid loosing it.
An interesting read at the very least. I'll post a link to it here when I get it done.
W e did test the m ethods put forward in the pam, and they do work quite effectively. On a night with any m o o n a t a l l , s i g n a l s
could be clearly understood and replied to effectively over nearly 200 me tres.
If it really is that cheap, then I'll be looking at m a k i n g m y own. I was going on a reasonable quality night vision m onocular for
around $250.... which was as far as I got shopping for that sort of gear.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > MAD (Magnetic Anomaly
Detector)
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View Full Version : MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector)

While hanging out at the store, the armored car couriers came in to pick up the days receipts.
Well, one of the guards was retiring in a couple of days, and I asked him what's the most he'd ever transported.
$200,000,000 in cash between two federal reserve banks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
And
$500,000,000 in bearer bonds to an airport for a corporation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> :D
HOLY SHIT! That's a lot of dough folks!
So, 4400 pounds of (assuming) hundred dollar bills has been driven around in what amounts to a steel box on a small truck
chassis.
The reason for the MAD is so that, in conjunction with a means of weighing a moving vehicle (pressure on a pressurised hose
across the road), and knowing the gross weight of the vehicles with normal load, the MAD would allow you to know if that extra
two tons of weight is either bills/bonds (valuable), or worthless coinage.
See, when a mass of metal moves through a magnetic field, it distorts that field. Well, a 2 ton mass of metal coins moving
through the earths magnetic field would also cause a distortion.
If you know an armored car has a ton of extra mass than when empty (figuring 350 pounds for the two guards), and the MAD
doesn't register more metal mass than a known empty armored car produces, than you know the vehicle is fat with cash! :)
Any flaws in this logic?
zeocrash November 6th, 2002, 04:01 PM

no flaws in the idea, but if you were going to heist a bank van, surely you would find out information telling you when and
where a van full of bills / bonds is, in advance.
you dont see many armed gangs handing around doing MAD checks on passing bank vans.
though it could be usefull for identifying decoys, so you still have the element of suprise on the real van.
chemwarrior November 6th, 2002, 04:13 PM

I can just imagine NBK sitting there wait for the numbers to pop up saying the weight of the truck. "Look there. I think we've
got a nice large chunk of change!" All the while reaching under the desk for the a M-14 (or whatever he feels like carrying).
Now if there is only a way we could actually orchestrate something like this....lol
Jhonbus November 6th, 2002, 04:15 PM

Assuming the armoured car to be a solid box of metal, can another mass of metal within the box be detected, given that it is
shielded from any magnetic fields by the car itself? Does the electrical contact between the coins and the car's chassis have
any effect on whether or not it can be detected?

i belive that the contents of the truck can be detected, as the metal inside the truck would have an effect on the magnetic
anomily of the truck.
i'm not sure how portable accurate MAD detectors are though
nbk2000 November 7th, 2002, 07:56 AM

I've seen MAD plans in those UFO nut magazines. You can buy them for a couple hundred bucks, though I'd invest the 10%
(RTPB, though maybe not that much! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) on a high end scientific
magnetometer and do plenty of dry runs first.
The AC isn't a faraday cage since it's not totally sealed. It has plenty of glass which would allow the magnetic field to penetrate
into the interior.
From what I've learned, there's only 7 Federal reserve banks in the US. Therefore, the possible routes cross-country through
which these cash shipments can go is limited.
There'd have to be a chokepoint in the geography of the interstate system through which ALL traffic would have to flow
through, either a bridge or tunnel. This would be the point at which the MAD would be set up.
Also, bills have a microencapsulated freon embedded in it to allow for it's detection by the Feds. Same thing could be used
against them.
Perhaps a standard type metal detector could be adapted. They can differentiate between ferrous and non-ferrous metals. US
coinage is non-ferrous, and steel vehicle bodies are ferrous. So, if your detector picked up a large mass of non-ferrous
metals...let it go.
What would be the ultimate (though an impossibilty...for now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) would
be to use a high powered flash x-ray or gamma ray camera like that used by the nuke labs to catch implosion phenomena.
These cameras can see through a foot of steel and catch things at microsecond speeds.
So it could very easily see through an entire AC and tell you what was inside, bills or coins. 'Course, the intense radiation pulse
would kill the guards within the day. :D Added bonus.

yeah but it would be a bit of a bummer if you ended up with a manslaughter charge, from scanning a carrier full of dimes

a couple issues here that i see are as follows:
-a mil in hundreds only weighs in at 10kg or so... the potential diffrence of weight of a vehical, based on full tank of gas vs
empty, and skinny security guards vs guards that sumo wrestle in their spare time would allow for an uncertainty of maybe
tens of millions$ in determining the value on board based on weight.
-diffrent coins have diffrent magnetic signatures, you would have a very difficult time distinguishing between a load that carried
a pile of 100$ and coins that strongly affected a MAD vs a load that was just a bunch or more mad-ening coins...
-the issue of a faraday cage is a actually a non issue... a normal faraday cages sheilds against an E feild, not a B feild, unless
the cage is made up of a magnetically non permiable material... there is an alloy called high mu that acomplishes such
magnetic sheilding... but i'm willing to be it isnt standard equipment on anything but maybe the presidents nuclear safe
bunker

When you're planning on jacking a quarter BILLION dollars or more, the scale of things is very different then your run-of-the-
mill robbery.
Obviously, if you had the RTPB 10% to invest in this, you wouldn't need to do it because you're already stinking rich and are
just getting greedy. But, nothing ventured, nothing gained. And a couple of years and a million or two invested wouldn't be out
of line, considering the payoff.
200 million in hundreds weighs 4,400 pounds. Even more if they throw in smaller bills. Even if you had two guards who weighed
300 pounds each, and 50 gallons of fuel variance, that's 900 pounds variance. If you measure the AC as weighing two tons
over it's gross weight, and the MAD isn't registering a very high variance in the magnetic signature, than I'd bet it to be full of
paper.
Remember, you're not going after the chump change of a million or two, you're going after THE BIG BUCKS. The kind of shit
that would make you a legendary criminal, like the Great Train Robber(s) or Al Capone kind of legendary.
Even if you failed, you failed in grand fashion! Anyone can fail at robbing a convenience store, but not any idiot can fail at
jacking a half-billion in bearer bonds. No, that takes special kind of idiot. An audacious and daring idiot! :D :p
You'd go to prison for the rest of your life, sure...but you'd be a greatly respected person on the inside. Someone that others
would make room for at the TV bench, give their desserts to at the chow hall, and other gestures of prison respect. That, and
you'd be a teacher that others would pay for your advice and learning on the matter. You would not be broke, that's for sure.
And you'll get the book deals, movies based on your exploit, and other tokens of the fame that's so important in american
society.
Jhonbus November 8th, 2002, 05:06 AM

You certainly have a vision, NBK :)
It just seems a shame we've discussed it here now. If some time in the future, a huge sum of money gets stolen by this
method, I fear the jack-booted thugs will be kicking down every forumite's door to take them in for "questioning"... <img

Dumb question maybe...
since you are talking about transfers between the fed reserve banks, would huge quantites of coin even be an issue? If a 2
ton shipment were to carry a roughly equal amount of quarters, nickles, dimes and pennies, we would be talking about what,
maybe 20k worth of change (as a ballpark guess, if it was 4400 of .25$ anone the value would be around 70k$). obviously all
the monies from the mint have to be distriburted through the fed. 20k$ worth of change is NOTHING. Are you sure they dont
have other methods of delivery of coin?

Considering the huge amount of money, I wouldn't be surprised if the couriers didn't know about the shipment till the moment
it was loaded up. This would only be prudent, if only to prevent blabbering that might lead to a jack. More likely so the guards
can't plot to retire to the Seychelles Islands. :D
So it's very unlikely you'll be able to find out far in advance when the shipment is going to happen.
The MAD is to seperate out the large cash shipments from the routine coin deliveries to casinos, banks, etc. You're right, it's
chump change, but it still goes by courier because it's money and the insurance companies won't cover the theft of it unless it
was stolen from a courier.
Another use of MAD may be to detect when there IS a large amount of metal. More specifically precious metals like gold and
platinium.
Stake out a precious metals repository or large regional dealer with your weight gauge and MAD. Scan the AC as it goes in. If it
gains a ton of weight and causes the MAD to go crazy when it leaves, you've got an excellent canditate for a jack. <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Marvin November 12th, 2002, 09:57 PM

Ive been thinking about this for a while, and I dont think magnetism will work well enough to tell. There are a few other ways
though....
The standard metal detector circuit is an aircore transformer. You set the null point at the voltage over the secondary in air to
zero. If you introduce some ferrous metal into the loop it has a much higher permiability than the air. This essentially make
the transformer better than it was before, the voltage over the secondary increases which shifts the meter over the zero point.
Ferrous metals are a huge difference from air so a small amount makes a big difference. Non ferrous metals are more of a
problem. If you introduce a non ferrous metal into the gap becuase its conductive and the frequency is high, you get eddy
currents in the metal which reduces the voltage in the secondary. This is a much smaller effect gram for gram but its the only
way to detect not ferrous metals this way. Even quite a large amount of non ferrous metal will be swamped by a small amount
of ferrous metal.
Ok, next effect is what nbk is suggesting. You can use sensative magnetic sensors to detect the change in field resulting from
a mass of metal moving through the earths magnetic field. This can be made to work very well, even with hall effect devices
which are fairly cheep. You can get fairly sensative hall effect devices with a working range of about 50 microtesla (earth field)
for around $50 each. If you want to go for more accurate devices, youd use alkali vapour magnetometers which are a fortune,
but are many orders more sensative, with resolutions in the 10s of picotesla range.
Theres a problem though. The steel box they are in effectivly kills everything magnetic and electric dead. Its not 4Pi sheilding
but the gaps dont alow anything in unless your holding the probe right next to them, magnetically its almost perfect becuase
of the massive difference between ferrous materials and air. The only materials that truly sheild from magnets are Type I
superconductors, but highly permiable materials 'short circuit' the magnetic flux you want to be looking at. Mu metal is just an
example of a very highly permiable material (the trade off is that is has a crappy saturation value which is why people dont
make transformer cores out of it) used for sheilding devices from the earths magnetic field. Add to all this that being steel the
van probably has a large perminent magnetic field of its own and the numbers dont seem workable anymore. No matter how
sensative the detectors the signal will be useless.
The method I would suggest might be made to work for problems like this, is neutron activiated gamma spectroscopy. You
irradiate the van with a fast burst of neutrons, and have a large gamma spectrometer neer the van as close as possible to do
a spectrum of the resulting gamma. That spectrum would tell you what metals were present, and roughly how much of each
along with most other elements. Theres a few element gaps in the method, carbon and hydrogen would not show up, gold and
copper definatly would, nickle and iron probably would, Id need to check data for them and if it could be aranged for a
reasonable capture time, eg >10mins the burst of neutrons required would not need to be large enough to cause noticable
radiation sickness symptoms in the passengers/public. Having said that, I would not be neer this when it when it went off.
This isnt cheep, even compaired to potassium vapour magnetometers, but 10% buys a lot of physics kit.

Marvin,
I dont have alot of experience with commerical nuetron activation equipment, but how large a source at what kind of distance
would one need? it would a be an almost trivial matter to build a system to put out a billion nuetrons a second or so, obviously
the flux is going to fall off rapidly with distance, but hey, if you could put the thing in a box truck that pulls up NEXT to an
armored car, you could get not to far away from whats inside....
as far as the spectrometer goes, watch dovebid.com I have seen a few go for fairly trivial prices before...
althought you would still need to find a way to monitor the weight of the vehical to see if it has any signifigant load in it...
maybe a camera system to look at the rear tires to see if there is any more bulde than normal, indicative of alot of weight ont
he back axel... then again it would such to use such a system to only find out the tires were low on air :)
Marvin December 3rd, 2002, 09:03 PM

The situation is too complicated to make guesses without a simulation program, and I dont have one. Some undergraduate
physics experiments from the US provide some info, as do a number of declassified documents from lanl. Its possible to get
meaningful results using a 10^6 n/s source in a water tank but this is very much at the low end and long time side of the
equation. 10^14/sec poses a very serious health risk. Seeing most elements can be done with a source that can be built at
home and uses no restricted materials, copper is rather more annoying and requires high energy neutrons from which the only
convenient source would require tritium.
As an order of magnetude guess, Id put my money on a multifocus single pulse source releasing around 10^10 neutrons right
next to the van itself. The emitter would probably be fairly small, bucket sized, but the power supply might have to be rather
larger. The results would tell you how much of each element was in the van, and depending on how you arange the detector(s)
roughly where it is.
Agent Blak December 3rd, 2002, 11:29 PM

Jhonbus,
They would certainly have there work cut out for them. It would be a very difficult task because they would have to gather up
indviduals for all over the world; alive.
This would mean they would have to capture a in an animanls own hunting grounds. Essentials your back yard. You should
know all the alley ways, sewer systems, etc. in your area.
We would make a craft caputre... :cool:
nbk2000 December 20th, 2002, 04:58 AM

In conjunction with using a MAD, or some other instrument, to decide when a target is worthy of your attention <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , I thought of the utility of knowing the vulnerable areas of the AC's.
With virtually any armored vehicle, the underside is the least protected. Though knowing exactly where everything is would
greatly add you in the attack.
So, one such means already in use by military/security is a videocamera assembly that is built-in to a moveable speedbump,
or permanently installed in the driveway of a secured facility.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/underviewer.gif" alt=" - " />
Such a device gives you this kind of view of a vehicles vulnerable belly.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/undercarriage.jpg" alt=" - " />
From here you can see the fuel tanks, steering linkages, power trains, axles, hydralic/fuel lines, etc.
Now, to attack these, you could use an SC, LSC, or EFP. However, these would carry the risk of setting the vehicle on fire, which
is a bad thing when you're trying to get into it to get to the flammable paper valuables contained within.
Better would be to use a water slug. This is made by using explosives to project a mass of water in a SC fashion. This
technique was often used by the brits in Ireland for disarming car bombs by blowing the explosives apart. The charge would be
placed on the ground underneath the trunk, and would lift the beer kegs full of explosive (common bomb container) 10
meters up into the air, right through the trunk lid.
A similar charge, though of smaller dimensions, would be used to disrupt the fuel tank or shatter the drive train, immobilizing
the vehicle. Because of the water, there's no fire risk, the flames of the explosion being smothered by the steam.
But you'd have to first KNOW where to place the charge, and for this you need advanced recon of the target vehicle to
determine placement, hence the cameras.
Now, I could see using an RC car with an upward facing IR camera to get the view while the AC is parked for a delivery. Vehicle
scoots underneath, you do a lap or two, then boogy out of there. Later, you use a vidcap prog to get frame shots from the
recorded video, and photoshop to stitch them together to get the view as above.
Next time around, in addition to a camera, the RC is carrying a water jet charge for attack.
To quote some Kung-Fu movie (I forgot which):
"The true master paralyzes his opponents, leaving them vulnerable to attack"
megalomania December 21st, 2002, 01:49 AM

What exactly is the legit purpose of putting a video camera on a speed bump? Is it some kind of car bomb check?
nbk2000 December 21st, 2002, 02:17 AM

It's to check for people trying to sneak in/out (immigrants/prisoners), car bombs, drugs, etc.
(If you look careful at the picture above, you can see someone hiding just to the left of the left-most axle. Tilt your head to
the right 90 degrees to see it more clearly.)
There's plenty of places where you could hide a camera to get the underside shots. Expansions joints, storm drain grates,
manhole covers, etc. Though you wouldn't be able to get the shots on cue, you'd have to wait, possibly a long time. I'd rather
use the RC scout to get the pictures on MY time.
One would want to wait a few months after doing so, so in case anyone sees the RC scout, they won't associate it with a
robbery 2 days later. Also, if the guards see it, the time lapse would result in lack vigilance.
[ December 21, 2002, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
Flake2m December 21st, 2002, 11:09 AM

Instead of using a water slug. Couldn't one deploy an improvised "road patriot"?
A road patriot would be a bit more subtle because while the guards are driving they'd suddenly lose power to the truck. They'd
then probaly think that the truck has broken down instead of a robbery occurring.
If I were going to rob an AC that had 200mil in it I would use atleast 3 vehicles. The first vehicle would be a small truck that
carries the Neutron scanner/MAD etc. The second vehicle disables the truck with a road patriot and then opens the doors. The
third vehicle then transports the loot.
You would need atleast 6 guys to do this and even if you actually managed to rip 200mil out of the truck, there wouldn't be a
single bank in the country that would cash it. Cash is more difficult to hide then bank bonds. Bullion is even harder to hide as
far as I know.
The escape would be more difficult then the robbery because you'd have 2 tons of cash/bullion to transport.
Anthony December 21st, 2002, 12:17 PM

It would be kinda stupid to walk to into a bank with 0.2 Gigabucks and ask to deposit it... But how many places don't accept
cash?
Sure, buying a car with a briefcase of bills get a call to the cops, but sticking your new Beamer or Astin on payment plan, and
giving them a cheque or direct debit every month wouldn't arouse any suspicion. You could use a bank account especially for
the purpose. Distributing the money you put in every week accros several accounts would lower the suspicion.
The notes you stole would probably have their serials on watch, so you'd need to change them. Do casinos watch for stolen
bills? If not, stick on a nice suit, go to Vegas change a briefcase of bills into chips in each (appear like some Texan oil
tycoon...), lose (or win) some in each Casino then change them back. Doing so on a different day would help ensure you don't
get your same notes back :)
I'm sure NBK has some idea for laundering this amount of money? It is an interesting field.
Might be best to smuggle the cash out of the country, where they won't be looking for the serials. But then you're the stranger
with massive amounts of foreign cash...
As for the get away, if you're leaving vehicles behind then the getawway(s) should be contrasting vehicles to the ones left
behind, which should be identical if possible. That way the cops are looking for a getaway which is the same as the left vehicles
(natural assumption). Obviously make sure the guards don't see the getaway vehicle (if they're still alive). Also, the cops
would be looking for a vehicle capable of carry 2 ton of cash, so a big pickup, van etc. So maybe best to split the loot (it's in
sacks right?) between several largish family (high spec ones - quick, but not obviously so) cars. Having several car also
increases the chances of some loot getting away. It also removes it all from under your (the leader's) beedy eye, but since
you have the best chance of getting away (planned, and natural ability) you've got enough money and the temperment to
track down and suitably punish anyone that tries to pull a fast one on you.
Maybe a car swap somewhere along the line, with each car taking a different. Meet up later, kill your crimies and nab the lot :)
A transport chopper would be an interesting getaway, but not too subtle :)
[ December 21, 2002, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Anthony ]
nbk2000 December 21st, 2002, 12:36 PM

All the large AC's I've seen used diesel engines. These are (presumably) more resistant to an EM attack. Plus, there's the
uncertainty of whether or not the weapon would work to immobilize the vehicle.
Last thing you'd need to have happen would be for your patriot to go zooming underneath the AC, only to discover it didnt'
work, and now the guards are calling the pork down on your head, and you've got nothing to show for it.
Completely mechanical severance and destruction of the AC vital powertrain system would be best. LOP: No half measures.
RPTB: No such thing as overkill. If you've destroyed the undercarriage of the AC, the results will be as obvious as a gazelle
who's had its back broke by a lions bite. :D
Cash, for equivalant weight, can be many times more valuable than bullion. 454 grams worth of $100 bills equals $45,400.
Compare to a similar weight of gold worth "only" ~$5,000.
The big advantage precious metals have over currency, is that metals can be melted down into any form, and have no (serial
numbers/MEU chips/perfluoroboron tracers/other shit) way of being uniquely identified.
HUGE amounts of cash are bulky in volume, taking up cubic YARDS of space. Imagine collecting several hundred sunday
newspapers and bundling them up into big cubes. That's what you'd have to practice moving.
Moving TONS of cash out of the country would likely not be the problem since the drug cartels do it everyday in much larger
quantities. The difficulty would lie in getting it into a spendable form that wouldn't come back on you. I'd be very leary of
trying to use any banking system to convert the money.
Antiqua, Panama, Isle of Man, Caymans...all of these are known "havens" for money laundering, and thus watched intensly.
And it's just a matter of time till they buckle under US pressure to give up their customers, just like the Swiss did.
Best use, in my opinion, would be to finance further criminal enterprise. You'd have, in one step, skipped over a decade of turf
wars/police infiltration/surveillance. It'd be like going from a punk stealing car stereos to head of a cocaine cartel.
'Course, that'd also be a problem in itself since you wouldn't have gained a decades worth of experience in dealing with enemy
gangs/police/etc. So it's a tradeoff.
But, if you're smart enough to pull it off in the first place, and adhere to the RTPB and LOP, you'd be a fearsome force to be
reckoned with anywhere in the world.
Assuming you don't kill anyone in the process of getting the loot (except your crimies, who's auto-cremated bodies are never
found :) ), the statute of limitations says that you can't be prosecuted for the crime if you can avoid being arrested for 10
years. So, bury the shit in an abandoned mineshaft and blow it shut. You can dig it up in a decade and spend it at your
leisure.
You might also be able to make a deal with some leader of a corrupt third world regime for immunity. He gets 100M$, you get
10 years hassle free. Fair enough trade.
Also, the Scheeyles (SP?) islands has/had a standing offer of immunity from extradition for 10M$. This only applied to non-
violent/non-drug financial crimes. Assuming no one was (provable) killed, this might be another out. Though they may have
withdrawn the offer due to US pressure.
Buying huge amounts of commodities at a discount from tiny countries in need of money could easily process hundreds of
millions. Slowly increasing your "imports" of these commodities over years would seem like a legit increase in business,
disguising the source of your wealth.
Anyone remember an old twilight zone episode (The Rip Van Winkle Caper) where these guys robbed a huge gold shipment
and, to avoid prosecution, went into suspended animation for a century?
Well, after all the robbers but one have been killed at each others hand, the last guy is dying of thirst in the desert of Death
Valley (where they hid out) when a flying car stops to help him. He offers them the only gold brick he has left for some water
but dies before they can help him.
In the usual TZ poetic justice, the future people look at the gold brick and say "Can you imagine that? Offered that as if it
were...as if it were worth something." and toss the gold bar to the side as being worthless. :p :D
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Just saw your post Anthony. Wouldn't the appropriate term be 200M$, as compared to 0.2G$. <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Only computer geeks would use "Gigabucks" when talking about "Mega-loot". :D
[ December 21, 2002, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

more to the point
a magnetic proton precession device comes to mind.

this would (i think) detect magnetic anomalies if assembled,positioned and calibrated correctly
it would have to a hearty beast
perhaps a hall effect transducer might be rigged to detect the like but what you seem to want in conjunction would be a
pressure sensor to first determine the weight
all this data and approipriate software loaded into a processor to determine just who's what's when's and where's.
and then of course an on-line comm to make one aware of the impending potentiality. and of course video to doucment the
i.d. of the vehicle.
listen have fun and send it back coded if you have the time.

that video xray is something. gottta start watching those small speed bumps.
also a target (silhouette) identification program conjuring data into the program.
there was a program on making armored vehicles on PBS lately. this company has been around a long time and is located in
Texas. they also make armoured modifications on personal vehicles. a heavy hummer. ah hmmmmm.
Altroman December 25th, 2006, 07:06 PM

You can make an impressively sensitive single-axis magnetometer from an old degaussing coil (remember these?) and an
OP-07 or OP-27 opamp. Simply hook the coil from ground to the noninverting input and configure the gain for about 1,000 or
so. You can run it off of two 9V batteries for days. If you plan to use this near any AC sources, then place a Mylar capacitor
across the feedback resistor to roll off the frequency response to a few Hz or so.
It's so sensitive that you can saturate the output simply by rotating the coil in the Earth's sub-Gauss magnetic field - very cool!
You can detect vehicles driving by just due to the variable reluctance effect (distortions in the Earth's field created by moving
ferrous material) alone.
This is good fun for kids and adults alike, since you can discretely identify houseguests who bring a hatchet/pistol/bayonet/
handcuffs as their Secret Santa gifts in the same manner.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > The "Screw"
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View Full Version : The "Screw"

For a while it's been bouncing around in my head the idea of a screw.
Not THAT kind of screw <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , nor the common type find at the hardware
store, but rather a VERY large screw made of a lightweight, but tough plastic, that has a very narrow tip to fit into a small hole
made in security glass or between burglar bars.
This screw (shaped like a plumb bob) is only a couple of feet long, and has a large hard steel spiral thread built into the steel
sheathing on the outside of the plastic core. On the back end is a ratchet mechanism for turning it that has a large lever
attached to it.
As it's turned, it pulls itself into whatever it's threaded into, expanding the hole/bars, using the force mulipliers of the inclined
plane and the lever.
Once it was in as far as you could turn it, out comes the sledge hammer. :)
Whack...whack...whack...in it goes.
Once it's in far enough (the largest part of the screw would be equal to a hole big enough for you to crawl through), you'd slide
the bar to the other side and give it a whack to work it loose. Now you're in. :D
Brilliant idea? Or stupid?
NoltaiR November 8th, 2002, 09:51 AM

The idea itself is certainly something to think about.. but there are definetly some rather obvious drawbacks for the uses you
have forementioned.
(1) to use it to pry open prison bars... well the bars that I have seen locally are about 3-4 inches apart.. for a 'screw' to fit this
it would have to be at least as wide in diameter as the bar spacing. And I don't guess you are going to sneak something 2ft X
6 inches long into a prison without someone questioning
(2) to use it in security glass would be probably even more difficult.. security glass usualy has a 'break-in' detector that goes
off when the glass is cracked... a screw of anysize would definetly break it
Mick November 8th, 2002, 09:54 AM

i think i get the idea, but i really don't see the point of it.
maybe i missed something...
Jhonbus November 8th, 2002, 10:25 AM

Sounds like a really good idea to me. Quieter than sawing the bars, apart from maybe the sledgehammer bit... Remember to
take some oil with you too :)

Just a little something I whipped up to illustrate the idea.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Screw.gif" alt=" - " />
When being used, there's an extendable metal post (red) that acts as a pivot to support the screw while you turn it, otherwise
it'd wobble out.
The main use (in my mind) would be to enlarge a small hole (bullet/drill) through security glass. It'd crush the glass and pull
any laminated film away, leaving a nice hole for you.
Eliteforum November 9th, 2002, 10:36 AM

What material would the "screw" be made out of? And would it be differant materials for "drilling" into differant material?
Zach November 9th, 2002, 12:11 PM

plastic? really? I don't think this would work too well in situations where you've got to haul ass, but if you've got the time, why
not?
Interesting idea NBK, but how would you manufacture this beast?
Being somewhat of a machinist, I can tell you that it is impractical to try to machine this, unless you've got access to CNC, and
an injection mold for this thing would be a masterpeice in itself.

You could bend a bar into the "thread" shape and then weld it to a steel cone, or you could simply make a casting of the
shape. A foam blank of the screw wouldn't be too hard to make using a hot-wire cutter, or even a craft knife. Then it's a
matter of having something with which you can melt steel.
The cone is made from thick gauge steel rolled and lap welded with a small opening at the point. The round spiral "screw" is
then welded on and a small steel cone tip is welded on the end of the cone with the ratchet rod mechanism welded to it with a
steel rod down the center of the cone.
The body is then filled with a turned polyproplyene plastic foam cone pressed in under great pressure for strength.
Simple, as long as you have access to a machine shop. Which anyone with some decent money can buy. :)
PYRO500 November 9th, 2002, 10:03 PM

That picture... It looks like someone's stealing christmas :) .
NoltaiR November 10th, 2002, 12:57 AM

And you are planning on this 'product' to have the ability to break through prison cells?
HAHA.. (still laughing at pyro500)
pyromaniac_guy November 10th, 2002, 01:11 AM

maybe i dont have my mechanical advantage thinking cap on the right way, but isnt the effort involved in screwing a screw
directly (or even at the square) porportional to the 'steepness' of the threading? ie the faster the screw increases in diameter,
the less emchanical advantage you have... if you wanted something to pry burgler bars apart it would have to be just plain old
silly long to be of any use..
although it might be a good way to pry glass windows out... i have seen windows that dont have any structural device holding
them in place, just cauking... if you got the screw in there and pulled you might be able to yank the pane (with the help of a
razor knife) without breaking it...
Agent Blak November 10th, 2002, 05:38 PM

I would like to suggest the employment of taper closer to 15-20 degrees. It will give you a better MA as mention above. It will
also be eaier to start.
A question about you design; Is it a one size fits all? or do you plan of adjust you taper, threads per inch(TPI) and depth of
thread depending on the application(Material).
vulture November 10th, 2002, 07:50 PM

How about placing the screw in a barrel/tube which the widest part screws into. Then propel it by a gas producing composition,
so that it will start to rotate quickly. I don't know if it's clear what I'm saying here, but basically think of a screw like slow bullet.

Who mentioned anything about prison? :confused:
It's just an idea folks...even Da Vinci had a few "bombs" (pardon the pun <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif"
/> ).
Anyhows, the steeper the thread, the less the mechanical advantage. This is because the length of the inclined plane is
shorter, requiring more effort.
The idea behind this would be a simple device that could be used to break through a cinderblock wall with rebar reinforcment,
without the sound of hammers smashing concrete or power drills.
The screw would pull itself into a small pilot hole drilled by hand and, as it goes in, crushes the concrete and spreads the
rebar, until the hole was big enough to slip a small child in (they are good for something after all! :D ) to unlock the doors or
turn off the alarms.
You'd use a deadblow sledge (rubber with lead shot inside) for whacking the lever, so there's practically no sound.
It's a tradeoff of time against stealth. You'll take an hour to quietly get through the wall with a screw, rather than 10 seconds
to blast through it with explosives.
A-BOMB November 10th, 2002, 11:27 PM

NBK how about mounting a huge one of these units on a hole driller on skid-steer(bobcat) for breaking through walls and the
like?
Agent Blak November 11th, 2002, 07:14 PM

Sounds like a great place to use the Fake dumpster I heard someone talking about...
Maybe that was a different forum :rolleyes:
Eliteforum November 11th, 2002, 07:32 PM

It was on the Lock Down! forum, topic made by NBK.
- My mistake.
[ November 11, 2002, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Eliteforum ]

a-bomb... if your plans call for a bobcat i think at that point you might as well just stick with blasting your way through :)

BZZZZ!
The dumpster hide was on Lockdown!, not here.
True about the bobcat...if you're using that, just blast a hole through the wall, it'll be much quicker.
Fukineh December 9th, 2002, 11:48 PM

Why not use a modified car jack to do this or create something of the same idea. Instead of driving a screw straight in, insert
the jack which would unilize a screw in the prependicular direction of the other method taking up much less space and would be
easier to carry> Of course this would not work for enlarging small holes and such< but for pyring open bars it should work
well> I just fucked up my keyboard and I cant figure out how to fix it right now without rebooting so sorry for the lack of
grammer and > wherever there should be a period>
McGuyver December 19th, 2002, 06:07 PM

Seeing how size is pretty crucial here and amount of torque applied should be maximum, maybe a couple gears attached to it
then handle on the other side of the gears some how. Maybe a small gearbox like a like a steering box off a car or something
like that. This would make the speed of the drill much slower but the torque would be much higher. The handle for this could
be round too, maybe the diameter of the end of the screw or something. Ah ha! Another idea, if it is possible to have the
inside of this large screw hollow, the gearbox could be located inside to minimize size.
Another idea to increase breaking power is a telescoping handle. Like one that can be extended so you have more leverage.
Al Koholic December 19th, 2002, 10:40 PM

Im thinking that perhaps a device akin to a big pair of scissors with a hydraulic jack at the end your fingers would normally fit
in. If you placed the hinge close to the spreading bars and had nice long bars extending to the jack itself then you could widen
holes very easily in concrete and probably bypass rebar as well because of the multi-ton force exerted by a small hydraulic
jack.
Using this to get through thick walls would be better too because the screw will be very hard to turn if say you are going
through a wall that is 1 foot thick...plus with a steep thread the hole you make on the other side of the wall from where you
are drilling will be small still unless the screw is very thick.
Either way...I think a device named 'The Screw' is pretty freakin awesome sounding.

IMO, a spreder will not work, as you are trying to slide the wall either side along the ground and split it up the middle. It's
going to be higher resistant to this kind of stress. It's almost akin to trying to destroy the wall by pilling weight on top of it to
try and collapse it.
The Screw *pulls* the wall material forwards - it's loading the wall in the fashion to which it is weakest.
That said, it's going to take a hell of a lot of torque to use this thing effectively and if the device is strong enough, the
operator probbaly wouldn't be...

Well, even if the screw is impractical for breaking the concrete itself, it could still be useful for spreading the rebar once the
concrete has been shattered with explosives.
Rebar is usually left intact after an explosive attack, requiring that each individual rebar be cut. This takes time.
But, if they could be simply bent out of the way, this should greatly decrease the time it takes to clear a path through the
breach. And there'd be no jagged ends of cut rebar for you to get cut up on. :)
Kid Orgo June 23rd, 2003, 06:43 PM

What about a power drill, a gearbox, and a car jack?
Quick, powerful, and presumably effective.

I recently had an occasion to test "The Screw", but on a much smaller scale, and not to get into a place, but to keep someone
out of a place I was in.
See, you can use a long wood screw, and screw it into the gap between a door and the frame, and it acts like a locking wedge,
because the increasing diameter of the screw forces the door against the jamb (on the other side from the screw) and the
screw threads cut into the wood, making linear motion (opening the door) [nearly] impossible.
I was somewhere where I didn't want someone sneaking up on me through a door with a high window and no glass (small
enough they couldn't climb through, but could
reach in and open it), so I used a 2" wood screw in the above manner to 'cover my six', and, later, someone DID try to get in,
but the screw kept the door shut, even though they tried kicking the door open. :p
Mind you, the screw is just in the gap, and NOT through the door and into the jamb, so it's easy to do with the screwdriver in a
pocket tool, such as I used, no power tools needed. And, more importantly, you're not trapped by something irrevocable (or
time-consuming) if you need to get out of somewhere in a hurry.
I'd imagine a strong torque screwdriver with a stainless steel screw could be used with metal doors/jambs for the same
purpose.
There are 'security' screws that use various types of heads so common tools can't undo them, only special bits, so that'd be
the ones to use, so no one else could undo them within any time to do them any good.
Just the thing for shaping the urban battlefield to your advantage and thwarting piggy creeping. :p
doggie December 15th, 2004, 06:20 PM

Concrete? Use a hand drill and masonary bits to drill holes for the placement of Dexpan http://www.archerusa.com/
Product_Dexpan_En2.html
It slowly expands silently to the efect of popping out an entire doorway to walk thru.

Interesting trick.
A similar one would be using a wedge behind the door, except that wedges allow the door to open a little first.
As for the original idea, well, that could be interesting. If it was a cutting type of thread, a self-tapper, then it would be quite
interesting, but I agree with the others who have said that the torque would be too high. You are trying to crush concrete or
brick, and that isn't easy.
I've been thinking about a neat way of getting through walls, though. Think of a kind of automatic center punch, but, instead
of being 6mm thick, make it 4 inches or so. The design is the same, but scaled up, and the spring can be cocked beforehand.
The body is quite heavy, and the actual punch is relatively light.
Walk up to brick wall, place point in center of brick, *ping*, brick is shattered.
Then you can use something like the screw, or a sprung steel strip with a towrope or winch, and pull the wall out.

Wedges can also be easily removed from their side, and aren't tiny like screws, nor are they silent to install like a screw, as
you've got to knock them in to keep them from sliding.
Neoknite December 16th, 2004, 05:40 PM

If your looking for a fast way to put a good sized hole through a brick wall then u could try using a large metal spear made of
a pipe and four thick pieces of metal cut and welded into a spear tip. This whole device could be placed into a truck bed and
apon arrival hook it up onto the hitch system. Then just smash into the wall. You lose stealth but have you ever tried to crack
brick. Its not very quiet defenatly something that would be noticed by bystanders or guards. And if you thought about grinding
the brick with the screw then the length of this would be quite long.
New idea u take the mounting system of the above set up and instead attach a screw system attached to a 5hp motor. If you
use it in a high traffic area or have a truck with glass packs or loud exhaust that should cover the noise of the 5hp engine. I
know that they have enough torque and you could gear it to a just the amount for the job. Or you could try using a pedal bike
hooked up to the same system. You would have the weight of the truck to hold the screw up and all the torque you need.This
would still be a lengthy job and it probrably would be easier to find an alternative route or use explosives.
festergrump December 16th, 2004, 06:37 PM

If you use it in a high traffic area or have a truck with glass packs or loud exhaust that should cover the noise of the 5hp
engine.
That's sort of like covering the report of a rifle by setting off explosives, now, isn't it?
Or you could try using a pedal bike hooked up to the same system.
You're getting better at being quiet. I'm really laughing at the thought of anyone pedalling a bicycle attachment to drill thru a
wall quietly and un-noticed, though. The piggies will be laughing when they see you, too. Laughing hard enough for you to
make your escape in the truck with the glass packed muffler setup you spent so much money on. It should be equipped with
outriggers, too, to keep the truck from swaying back and forth while you're on the bike-drill. :rolleyes:
A slightly better idea (and I really mean only slightly) in addition to your using a truck and a hitch attachment would be to
have a hydraulic pump power take off (much like dump trucks use to tilt the bed) to forcibly punch holes in the brick structure
with a hydraulic piston and wedge attachment. Again, this would not be a very quiet approach, nor stealthy. But all of the parts
could be bought for under $350 (less than a glass packed muffler system). Even if it didn't work out the way you'd hoped...
you can always make that log-splittler you've always wanted, and sell your bicycle powered log-splitter on E-bay. :D Might save
you some whiplash, too.
TreverSlyFox January 15th, 2005, 06:28 AM

Why not use the Hydraulics to "Turn" the screw?
My "71" GMC 1 ton has a hydraulic lift gate that will lift 1000#. The pump is 12V DC and can be adjusted to about 2500 psi.
Attach a Hydraulic "motor" to the screw and the 12V pump to turn the motor. Mount the thing in the back of a Van, pull up
along side the wall and open the side door. Have the thing on a rail system, slide it out to the wall and turn on the pump. You
could apply preassure to move it forward with a bottle jack pump. The hydraulic pump shouldn't be any louder than the sound
of the concrete block breaking apart. This would surely apply more force to the screw than a person could.
Just a thought.

Just took a look at the Dexpan link. Seems like a great idea for terrorists! Drill a small hole, pack it with goo, and leave. Two
days later, down comes the wall, bridge, whatever. If you drilled the hole chemically, so it was silent too, it could be great for
taking down infrastructure almost anywhere!
NBK, I didn't mean that the wedges needed to be banged in. They are faster to remove if you need to leave, and you can
place them at the bottom silently by pushing them into place with your foot. It isn't limited by the size of the gap in the door
frame either, which would be an issue if the door was a poor fit (more than .25" would be too much for a screw, wouldn't it?)
Another trick is to take the handle apart, removing the through bar. This will let you open the door with a screwdriver from one
side, but the handle blocks the way, and the door looks totally normal from the other side. Probably not as strong as the screw
in the frame idea, though. And there is nothing stopping you from using two or more screws.
knowledgehungry January 17th, 2005, 07:28 PM

I don' t think that Dexpan works quite like you guys are thinking it does. It appears to need multiple holes drilled and I dont
think the average terr would be able to drill several 4 foot by 1 foot holes without any one noticing.
nbk2000 January 18th, 2005, 08:09 PM

Dexpan requires at least 8 hours, or more, to begin fracturing the target material, depending on the number of holes drilled/
spacing/size/temperature/etc.
It requires time, but it is capable of fracturing anything from granite to double-reinforced high pressure concrete. :)
Making the holes in a stealthy manner would be the problem for covert destruction, but all this is veering off topic, eh?
sparkchaser September 21st, 2006, 01:41 PM

The Screw would require a ton of torque, but i'm thinking large ratcheting "cheater bar". A hole big enough for a smallish
person to fit through would only need to be about 1 1/2 or 2 feet wide, how long would the cheater need to be with a given
thread pitch to get a high enough mechanical advantage to grind through concrete? And since we're talking about many hours
to get through anyways, I don't think that the ratcheting cheater would be overly noisy for stealth purposes. Just imagine
walking by and seeing a man standing there furiously jacking a bar that's driving a screw into a wall. Suspicious?
nawww!:rolleyes:
One modification to the idea: step the cone. This would (depending on the width of the wall) force one or two steps of the
screw through at a time at most, while the landings in between coned sections would provide a grip for the next coned section
to force through. Just a think I thought.
Alexires September 25th, 2006, 10:54 AM

Just going back to spreading the rebar apart, do the American emergency services have the "Jaws of Life"? Surely you guys
do.
Maybe something like that for spreading rebar, or cracking a wall?
Have a look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaws_of_life).
Maybe something useful there for the screw. A simple steel frame and the hydraulic ram to turn screw. It wouldn't be too hard
to either carry there (with a partner or two) or to assemble on the spot.

There's no reason why you couldn't make an arm sized hole a lot bigger fast with a simple portable hydraulic jack. A 5 tonne
jack with a chisel tip on one end would crack through concrete no trouble, and do it pretty quickly and quietly too. Just pop it in
the hole and crank, and it will drive the chisel upwards.
Against security bars, you wouldn't want a chisel but a U shaped bit to ensure the system didn't slip out. However, pulling
would generally be better and safer than pushing, and one of those 5 tonne ratchet straps might well be the answer - 5 tonnes
far exceeds what any person could pull bare handed.
Diabolique September 30th, 2006, 06:00 PM

nbk, have you thought of marketing this as a poor man's "jaws of life" rescue tool? I bet many third world countries that
cannot afford a JoL would jump on this. It could be used in building collapses to support or lift concrete slabs, or even break
them up.

I doubt there are many countries that couldn't afford a set of Jaws. Whether they can be bothered buying them is a different
matter, however. Generally the government are too busy trying to keep control and hide the money to buy rescue equipment,
no matter how cheap. They manage to buy plenty of armoured limo's though.
Diabolique October 3rd, 2006, 04:39 PM

I have seen too many countries that believe in "feeding" bullets to unruly hungery people. I have even seen it here in the US.
A small fire department in a city of some small nation would be interested in it for that very reason - no money for JoL.
The lever's force could probably be multiplied by using planetary gears to give more mechanical advantage. The central hub
that the lever works on transfers the force to the planetary gears, which turn and reduce the angular distance that the cone
travels, increasing the advantage.
The one disadvantage to using a cone that I can see is friction. A hard steel liner in the channel bottom with lots of lube would
help. The slight give of plastic would increase the work required due to deformation. Aluminum may be better, but I am not a
mechanical engineer.
lider_revolucionario October 17th, 2006, 10:26 PM

I've seen your topic and remembered some of my classes in materials dilatation. While the teacher was talking about this, he
said that the forces generated while a material dilatates and is pressed by another material are absolutely huge, and he
showed some pictures of railroads that had bad projects and the spacing between the rails. The whole track was like a rubber
stick while pressed by the poles! :)
So I've remembered another thing that may be useful in your works. Maybe if you drill a hole in the target, get one of those
resistors used in electric ovens (see how much they dilate) and plug it in a power source (perhaps a battery) it will brake rigid
materials with almost no noise of the machine, just of the target breaking. I'm not sure if this really can be used in practical
manners, but I guess it needs just a way of having the electricity pass through (making a small hole to use a wire and at the
side another for the resistance).
Jacks Complete October 22nd, 2006, 07:08 PM

You could shatter something hard and brittle like that, yes, but there are many factors. You can shatter glass with a blowtorch
and water far more easily and quietly than you can do it with a knife (almost impossible) or a set of boltcroppers. You can
then chase the cracks in the direction you want to go with nearly no noise at all. Concrete spalls when heated as the water
inside it expands faster than the pressure can release, causing bits to go flying.
However, steel and any other metal won't succumb to this type of attack unless you use a cutting torch to melt it away.
electricdetonator November 26th, 2006, 03:00 PM

As already mentioned a big planetary gear will give enough power to crush almost any material.
But you'll need to drill first a hole completely through the wall with a guiding rod ;)
So first you'll drill let's say a one inch hole through the whole wall, then push in the driving rod with a peg like mechanism, to
secure it tightly on the other side of the wall.
Put the conic "screw" on it and start cranking ;)
It's sure that the guiding rod has threads too which will fit into the threads in the hole of the cone. ;)
But honestly I doubt it'll be noiseless ...
Thinking about the expanding stuff it's always difficult to seal the holes a way all the pressure wont simply spill the stuff
outside.
But a fast and quick way to crack would be several tiny holes filled with dry ice, some water and a good sealing.
But when it's a simple in and out immediately operation I would use just shaped charges to blow me a nice armoured concrete
door
I mean the ones used for demolition of steel in buildings.
Simply selfmade, just buy copper L-profiles and U-profiles, fill in whatever you have as pyro an push the Ls into the Us to form
a shaped charge building a line ;)
Put four onto the wall with duct tape, go around the corner and ignite the charges ...
If you want to be sure to get in and out quickly just drill some pegs in the upper part of the wall (beneath the upmost shaped
charge) and wire them to the ground with a winch ;)

Whilst researching some safe cracking exploits I found out that the early safes were generally beaten by nothing more than
some steel wedges and sledge hammers. A wedge would be hammered into a gap on the door, and then another, then long
prybars and sledgehammering on the wedges would eventually cause the door to shear from the mounts, which were generally
bolts into the door face that held the inside on!
If it will work for steel and the special high pressure concretes used in safes, it will work for regular concrete just fine.
I know that a standard sledge will do a great job breaking a concrete slab, and rather quieter than you would think, too. My
dad taught me many years ago that there was a knack to it, though. I didn't break up much of the slab, but he blew it to bits
in a lot less time, with just some effort and the knack. Sadly, I can't enlighten, since I never worked out how he did it!
As regards ways to turn a giant screw, you could try the bolt drivers that the railways use. Two big men hold them, and then
drill a hole through the railway sleeper and into the floor with a huge squareheaded coach bolt. Apprently the torque is set
before they start, and it's normal to hold it at about 150 ft-lbs, but it goes up to something daft which causes issues when the
guys get thrown around!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > furnace for melting copper
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okay, i just whipped up a furnace like in black book companion(or BB munitions #4 - whatever you wanna call it)
a quick overview for those that haven't read it: hole in the ground, pipe in the side with a blower attached, fill with charcoal briquettes, add pot with copper inside.
unfortunatly, it doesn't get hot enough, it gets ungodly hot, but the copper just doesn't quite get to melting point(which i think is around 1800 celcius). it must get so very very
close to melting point tho, cause a few bits of copper wire melted slightly, but its unable to sustain that sort of heat for any length of time.
now, has anyone here successfully melted down copper for use in shaped charges?, if so how did you do it?
i was thinking maybe coal might get hot enough?
i've searched around the net to find out about kilns and furnaces but there really doesn't seem to be that much info on the subject. which surprized, cause i figured there would
be heaps people into making old school furnaces...
any ideas?

Considering how ancient man could melt copper using nothing more than his lungs blowing down a tube, you must have some kind of alloyed wiring.
What're you using to pump air down the tube? Maybe it's clogging up down in the hole.

using a compressor with a gate valve on a piece of 25mm gal water pipe, with 3 1/8 holes in the pit. theres certainly no shortage of air supply.
i've been thinking(scary!), i wonder if its got something to do with the briquettes i'm using...i don't actually think there charcoal, i think there some kind of processed "i can't
believe its not charcoal!" stuff.
i'm going to look into building large propane torch. i've wanted one for ages..so i may as well make one.
also, i appeared to have "cracked" into the homemade metal casting web ring. so i found shit loads of info on how to do things.
i hate shit like this, all you need to find is just one site specifically to do with the thing your looking for, and the internet just opens up with a wealth of infomation for you -
however, finding that first website is an absolute pain in the ass, and its basicly just luck in picking the right search terms.
anyways, heres the site for people who are interested in this type of thing <a href="http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/" target="_blank">http://
www.backyardmetalcasting.com/</a> (interesting enough, i never even thought to just type what i was looking in the address box)

Hey Polverone...think this'd be hot enough to distill phossy? :)
<img src="http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/bucketfurnace/bucket3_hotfurnace.JPG" alt=" - " />
A-BOMB November 12th, 2002, 08:07 AM

I too have seen that site, right now I'm trying to cast some small AL gears for my remote control tank like think I'm building. Its just so hard to carve a good gear out of
sytrofoam for lost foam casting and make them all the same.
EventHorizon November 12th, 2002, 07:26 PM

NBK, seeing you know that site I wonder if you lurk around similar sites as I. I may know you and not even know you. :)
EDIT: Just saw that link was posted in the previous reply, sorry.
Anyway, I've made two types of burners for forges and they both work DAMN good. If you can't melt copper with either of them then you shouldn't even bother. I built one
forge that I had to crank the propane down to <4 psi to get it below 1500F. My setup would do 19 PSI. :D
Anyone searching for a burner design, search for "Reil" style burners. Cheap and VERY easy to make. There are may modifications to the design, but the simple one works
exceptionally well.
<a href="http://eventhorizon.0catch.com/reilburner.jpg" target="_blank">http://eventhorizon.0catch.com/reilburner.jpg</a>
[ November 12, 2002, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: EventHorizon ]
Bitter November 14th, 2002, 10:55 AM

Have you tried putting a higher 'chimney' on your furnace, Mick ? I've heard that works, although I haven't tried it myself.
zeocrash May 11th, 2003, 08:23 AM

ok i'm planning to build a furnace
the furnace will efectively be a hollow bucket, with flame holes on the inside of the bucket.
ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/hosted%20images/zeocrash/furnace.jpg
(not sure what's up with the image)
ok now i have several problems.
firstly i need an effective method of supplying oxygen to the furnace.
secondly i need to know about the size and quantity of holes to give me a decent burn. i'm not sure of the flame speed of index, but if i get the flame speed too fast the think
will look like a prop at a heavy metal gig, and if i get it too slow it will burn back up the pipe.
any ideas
zaibatsu May 11th, 2003, 02:07 PM

A leafblower could be used, also check the foundry websites and you'll find plans for making a fan. Also heard somewhere about a hairdrier being used for smaller furnaces.
Tuatara May 11th, 2003, 06:45 PM

Melting point of copper is 1084C. You should be able to reach that easily with a coal furnace.
Ceramic kilns get to 1300C with propane burners!
Recipe for an insulating castable refractory to line your furnace with

By volume :
1 part Alumina
4 parts grog (crushed firebrick)
3 parts coarse sawdust
4 parts fireclay
2 parts Portland cement
2 parts vermiculite
Alumina, grog and fireclay are all available at ceramics/pottery supply stores.
This stuff is mixed with just enough water to make it sticky / mouldable , then packed into your furnace (eg 44 gallon steel drum). Once it is dry I'd suggest a low temp burn
out (say 500C , rising slowly to 1000C over half a day). The sawdust burns out leaving voids which improve the insulating properties. This mix will go to 'Cone 10' or 1300C.

Induction heater built from a radio oscillator and a flyback transformer?
[ has to stop typing to wipe tears of laughter from eyes]
Sorry mate, you'd get more power out of a box of matches.
Believe me, fire is waaaay easier than making your own high power RF induction heater.
McGuyver May 29th, 2003, 10:48 PM

Yes, flyback transformers merely put out high voltage, not high current which is what you want for an induction heater. The best thing you could use to melt metal electrically is
a arc welder, but for forming things with a fuel powered furnace is way better.
I think the best furnace would be a clay or brick box or whatever shape you want. Then have a decent air blower, like a leaf blower or an electric blower feeding a large
amount of air into the bottom of the furnace. I've seen wood fueled fires melt copper so fuel is your choice. As long as you have plenty of air coming in, it should get plenty
hot. Maybe those wood pellets used for stoves would work well. You could even make some kind of feed system for it, so you wouldn't have to stop casting.
klassasin June 2nd, 2003, 06:40 PM

If anyone cares I would say propane is the way to go. I have successfully melted aluminum, brass, and copper. Use propane for fuel and air compressor for forced air. It gets
hot. Here is a pic. (Server is not always up)
http://www.k3experiments.com/Pics/After.jpg
McGuyver June 3rd, 2003, 09:50 PM

What is your furnace made out of? Also, how big is your compressor? How many psi and cfm does it put out?
klassasin June 7th, 2003, 12:00 PM

IIRC it is made from a mixture of fireclay, cement(powder), and silica sand. They are mixed with water, put into the form, then allowed to dry. I can't remember the exact
proportions. For the compressor(has a regulator) it outputs about 20-40psi. To high and the flame can get extinguished, to low and the flame won't burn hot enough.
vulture June 7th, 2003, 07:28 PM

Anybody ever tried to feed these things with pure oxygen or air enriched with oxygen?
That should give a huge performance boost.
Ofcourse, if you can get oxygen bottles, you probably can get acetylene too...:D
GibboNet June 8th, 2003, 02:59 AM

There's no point putting pure oxygen into the furnace, as you want some fuel left to burn....
Dr Karl Kruzelntiski (sp?) Ran a science show around Australia not long ago, and one of the discussions was about getting charcoal ready on a BBQ. A science saavy guy
thought of attatching a leaf blower or something to it, and reduced his charcoal "fresh, just lit" to "nice cooking embers" time considerably. He then went one step better, and
used oxygen, like you say, and overall time was reduced from about 30 mins to under 3 mins !
Of course, he had to go one step further, and liquid oxygen was poured onto warm coals, and a lit ciggarette thrown on. He had managed to reduce bur time to 3 Seconds
:eek:
Of course, he also achieved a 6-7 foot flame burst, and NO charcoal left to cook on. The pictures were impressive too. Dr Karl has a morning segment one day a week on
TripleJ Radio here in aus. Others, you might be able to listen on the net, He works with CSIRO, and ABC, (part of which is JJJ) check out Australian Broadcasting Corporation
(http://www.abc.net.au)
If you find Dr Karl's site, it has lots of other great stuff on it too.
SMAG 12B/E5 June 14th, 2003, 02:46 AM

The furnaces work well. I use propane and temporary firebrick enclosures. I have three sacks of commercial mix waiting for some spare time to produce a cylindrical furnace. I
have melted brass once and aluminum numerous times. I cast fuse blanks for 60mm mortar rounds and will produce several firing grips for RPG-2 type units and fuse bodies/
adapters for rifle grenades. The machine waste aluminum is recycled into pyrotechnics and blast-enhanced HE.
Your original use of the copper for shaped charges might be easier if you considered spinning the cones from sheet copper over a form. A homemade spinning machine should
not be difficult to fabricate and will produce many identical cones, cheaply.
Jhonbus June 16th, 2003, 11:26 AM

A compressor wouldn't be my first choice for furnace air supply; most compressors are designed to give a high pressure but probably not a high flow rate. Something like a
garden leaf blower would be better.
klassasin June 16th, 2003, 01:37 PM

We have tried leaf blowers and what not. For us the compressor worked best.
Microtek June 18th, 2003, 01:53 PM

Having read James Yawn's site on rocketry, I decided to try out his idea of casting nozzles into Al bodies. He uses a large steel can fulle of charcoal and a vacuum cleaner to
blow air into a pipe in the bottom.
So, I obtained a steel can ( 25-30 cm diameter, 40 cm high ) and made a 2.5 cm hole near the bottom. A 20 cm long steel pipe ( 23 mm diameter ) was inserted through the
hole going 3 cm into the can. A paint stripping gun was attached and the can was filled to a depth of ca 8-15 cm with charcoal.
Starting the paint stripper ignites the coal after 2-3 minutes and after a further 5 min, the furnace is hot. I melted aluminium easily, then copper. Then the thin ( < 1 mm )
steel pipe I was using for holding the copper, crumbled. I think the metal was oxidized rather than melted so I upgraded to heavy-duty water pipe ( wall thickness ca 3-4 mm )
with an endcap. When placed ca 2 cm in front of the end of the air pipe, it went to dull red in about one minute. After another it was bright yellow ( when looking down into
the pipe ). Then after yet another minute flames started jetting out from the water pipe, and when I lifted it out of the furnace, I found that the entire endcap and a good 3 cm
of the pipe had melted off!!! That means more than 1500 C ( the water pipe IS iron; I tested it for magnetism ).
the Jackal June 18th, 2003, 03:28 PM
Assuming you melt the copper, how long would you guys estimate it would stay liquid once it was taken out of the furnace?
Anthony June 19th, 2003, 04:04 PM

Aside from the ambient temperature, that would depend a lot on how much molten copper you have - small amounts would cool disproportionately faster than larger amounts.
Mr Cool June 19th, 2003, 04:23 PM

Haha, I see someone else has discovered the joys of paint stripper guns and charcoal, Microtek!
It's a good combination, isn't it? :D
I've managed to melt the end off a wrought iron bar that's just slightly over 1/2" thick in a minute or two.

Yes indeed Mr Cool, the only problem is that the flowrate is very low ( on my paint stripper at least ), much less than a hairdryer. I can see that a lot of CO is produced so if I
could up the flowrate without lowering the temp of the airstream.....
This would just lead to another problem: What kind of accessible material could you use for crucible ?
BTW, I stated that my furnace must have gotten to at least 1500 C as it melted the iron pipe. I later realized that this is not neccessarily true as some alloys melt already at
1200 C ( But I also found some molten sand and stones in the ashes, so it does get very hot ).
Jhonbus June 20th, 2003, 08:23 PM

Graphite comes to mind. You can buy graphite crucibles all over the net, a quick search brought up
http://www.legend-reno.com/minesupply/m58.htm
No pricing from my quick glance but it shouldn't be too hard to find out. I would estimate about $50 for a 400ml one, maybe.
[edit] ah, you just click on the links for the prices. which are even better than I thought.
Tuatara June 21st, 2003, 09:27 PM

I don't know anything about this book, except whats on the web page, but it might be a good starting point.
Making Crucibles by Vince Gingery (http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/cruc/index.html)
Jhonbus June 22nd, 2003, 06:30 AM

Probably a good book. From what I've heard the Gingery books are really detailed and helpful.
(looking at that crucible-making page reminded me I had a dream last night in which I was in a pottery class taught by Hitler!)
GibboNet June 22nd, 2003, 09:12 AM

Totally off topic (sorry)......
But I had to ask.... What does Hitler teach in a pottery class ? :eek:
Jhonbus June 22nd, 2003, 03:05 PM

Well the class had had to make business cards for homework (nothing to do with pottery I know) I was handing mine in, and put it on the desk. Then I'm pretty sure he was
about to shout at me but my alarm woke me.

Sorry to re-open an old thread (I only just worked out how to see them with the drop-downs, rather than the searches) but I thought you might like to hear my experiances.
I have built both a Propane furnace and a charcoal knife forge.
Link to picture of a knife forge (http://www.rubbertreeplant.co.uk/images/110.jpg)
This looks very like the knife forge. The blower on mine is one of those ones you get for inflating mattresses, and is mains powered. I tried the battery ones, but they were
crap. This puts through so much air that if I restrict the airholes, the remaining ones blow any of the smaller bits of flaming charcoal all over the place! It takes about ten
minutes to get from just lit to embers hot enough for forging. So far, I have made some medeaval type bodkin arrow heads, which I learnt at a craft fair/exhibition, and was
why I build the forge, and played about cutting thick steel bars, etc. I also made a rather neat skinning knife, but I can't make it hold an edge fine enough for my likeing.
The propane furnace is quite scary, but mostly for the capacity for things to go very wrong very easily and quickly. I made the mistake of being a bit tight and using a large
steel bean tin to melt down some .22 and 7.62mm brass, and so, with my lovely tongs, I lifted it out, only to get molten brass pissing all over the floor (Yes, do this outside!)
which I had to break free with a hammer after it had cooled. By the time I got to the mould (two paces) I had lost 90+% of the brass. I turned it all off, and came back four
hours later. The furnace was still too warm to lift without gloves! Turns out the heat and flame had turned the whole tin into "scale" and it had cracked when I lifted it.
If anyone wants any info on this stuff, there is loads on-line. The Primal Fires message board seems to have disappeared, the plans I used for the furnace were from here
(http://www.aphtrading.co.uk/pages/apage2.htm) and here (http://www.reil1.net/Furnace.shtml) . The first one is UK, the second is USA. You can also ask me, thought I
have only limited experiance, as I just followed someone else's plans.
Edit: Changed the picture to a link, as it is quite big.

See http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=69106 for related news.
Marmaloon January 11th, 2005, 03:01 PM

I noticed you said you were planning on making cones for shaped charges out of copper. Have you considered looking into metal spinning, perhaps with a modified wood lathe?
It might be easier to come up with product that way.
Dave the Rave January 12th, 2005, 04:12 PM

JC, nice forge, but isnt quite swallow ? I mean, when the blower starts it doesnt spills the coal and ashes out ? It looks like an AL trays, isnt ? And by the way, why you
"was" Jacks lack of surprise ?
About the purpose of the topic, I agree with marmaloon, maybe making the cones by melting the copper isnt an good idea, mainly because its very dificult to control the
thickness and homogeneity of the cone, which will render on irregular and useless blast jets.
The idea of roll an factory made copper plate on an hardwood cone sounds much more easy and feassible. The resultant cone will be more regular and could be welded with an
regular spot welder, and I believe that could be less energy consumible and more readily mass produced.
I was "Jack's Complete", but I got re-named as my ' was crashing something on the torrents - I was the only person with a decent post count with one, so I got re-named
"Jacks Complete", which is a shame, but at the same time a relief, since I couldn't log in, and thought I had been shitcanned!
Anyway, I'm still here :) Yes, the forge is quite shallow. I used a stainless steel pan for turkeys, etc. for mine, and it does work, though the heat-up time and lack of anywhere
to keep it really hampers me. Once running, you can heat a fair bit of steel. It will do something the size of a machete, though a lack of steel stock is a real hassle. Mine has a
far higher wall than in the plans (though it is hard to tell in that picture), as I decided it was too shallow for what I wanted, which was to do lots of different things. Mine is sat
on top of a safe I broke open, as it is too low otherwise, and you can't work long bits easily.
Having said all that, I don't use it often. The latest refinement I want to add is a notch so I can leave the blower on, and adjust the airflow with a collar ring over the notch. I
found the little outcut bits too light, as they tend to shift during use, so throttling that way doesn't actually work well.
If you have a metal lathe, you can make a form and "spin" the metal over it as it turns. Just mind how you get dragged in if you slip, as the lathe won't stop unless you hit the
button, and it will rip your arm off first. Copper is very soft, so it shouldn't be hard, as it were.
Another way, if you have soft copper sheet, would be to hammer a form into the sheet over the tyre hole in your anvil, and form like that. You drive it straight and it should be
ok.
Dave the Rave January 13th, 2005, 09:23 AM

JC, what I was thinking was on cut an coned shape on the copper plate and then hammer it on the hardwood cone, not use the copper cable and turn it around the form,
which is an nice idea...
But there is another one, an fussion between your ideas of the lathe and the hammer.
There is an piece to adapt on the lathe which is caled the tailpipe, and its an steel solid cone, made on several diferent diameters. One can made an female mould on
hardwood, which adapts on the shape and size of the male tailpipe cone.
The idea is use the tailpipe and the hardwood mould as an matrix to pressure form the cone on copper plates, and then, with scisors, cut off the excedent material. We can use
something like Brainfevers jackpress (http://www.geocities.com/brainfevert/press.html) to give the necessary force.
Anyway, Gingerys Books are the best, and he is an conosseur on his metiers, knowing the tools of the trade and writing easily about his job. Ill look for an copy of that
particular book, but on The Forum FTP we can found the other books he wrote.
Graphite crucibles are made of highly pressed graphite powder and then turned and drilled till the shape of the crucible is achieved, but I believe that isnt necessary to use one
to melt copper.
From what I could find, we can make an crucible to the melting of the copper from steel, which can withstand the temperatures used to melt the copper, using one piece of
pipe and an small disk to make the bottom of the crucible. It can be arc welded with an double line as we can see here (http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/
crucibles.html).
Another idea is to make the crucible from an ammalgam of powdered graphite, fire cemment and powdered asbestus, but I believe that only us, the inhabitants of 3th world
could use high cancerygenous substances like asbestus to make the crucible, the civilized world must stick with powdered graphite and fire cemment, which must be dilluted
prior to mix with graphite.
We can use, maybe 10 parts water to one part cemment, as it will only be used as "bind" to the graphite, which is then added till it gets an almost liquid doughnut concistency
and its then pressed on an 2 pieces wooden mould to form the casing, just do make the pattern of the crucible, and put it to cure. After that, the piece can be baked and used
as an regular crucible.
Its the same way they make porcelane dishes and will work nicely.
What do you think ?
Skean Dhu January 13th, 2005, 04:19 PM

I have the Complete book set from lindsay books on making your own metal shop from scrap, book one is about making your own charcoal furnace and I also own the book
on making crucibles. I'll scan those in and up them to the FTP after I get done with exams.
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/
is a good site on making refractory, various furnaces, fuels, burners and casting in general
If I have time and you guys think you'd use them I'll scan the rest of the 7book series.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Winter is here
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Well, for us Northern Hemisphere's anyways.
So now that the snow and ice is going to start falling, how do we deal with it, as regards our "hobbies"?
Do you pack it up for the w inter and move to warmer climes? Do you hibernate inside till the spring thaw ? Or do you build snowmen with a kilo of APAN strapped to their chests
before "they" blow themselves up to go to Paradise w here 70 virgin ice blocks aw ait them? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src= "wink.gif" />
Me, I'm a hibernator. I don't really like the cold, but I especially hate the glare of the sun off of all that fucking glittery snow. :(
This topic is also dual purpose. The other purpose being of mobility during snow and ice. If you can move freely while others are slipping and sliding, then you can easily outrun
them if they try chasing you for killing a snow man. :)
To start with, this will the first time in more than 15 years that I'm somew here w here it snows, having spent all that time in sunny california. But I've lived in cold states like
White Idaho and White Montana (never saw ONE nigger there! :D ), so it's not something new to me.
I've found some interesting things to increase ones advantage during extremely cold weather.
For instance, at <a href= "http://www .allenslaw.com/polarwrap.html" target="_blank"> http://www .allenslaw.com/polarwrap.html< /a> , they sell this nifty product called
"Polarw rap". I saw it in Popular Science or such years ago and remembered it recently. It's a device that you wear over your face that absorbs the heat of your exhaled breath,
and uses that to w arm up the frigid air you're inhaling.
This works to keep you much warmer that you otherwise would be after giving up your heat to the sub-zero air.
<img src="http://ww w.allenslaw .com/polarw rap/FHC-BLK.gif" alt=" - " />
And it's "dual use" as you'll notice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
<blockquote>quote:< hr /> After getting cold in a freezer
facility at -30 degrees. "Thirty seconds after donning the device ... I started warming. Thirty seconds more, I was able to tolerate the immense chill wearing only jeans, golf shirt
and light denim jacket." < hr /></blockquote> If this is true, then you could be lightly dressed for a "job" while the
piggies who'd be trying to stop you are wearing heavy parkas, snow boots, mittens, and all that other dexterity and speed killing crap. While you, being lightly clad, have a +2
mobility and +4 dexterity (in RPG parlance).
Their numb fingers are fumbling w ith safeties, while you're pulling out your piece with lightning speed and full dexterity. If the Alaska State Troopers use it, there must be a
reason, right?
Other things of concern w ould be getting around in the snow without leaving footprints w hich are easily trackable. There's this product that looks like snow, but it's actually some
kind of polyester matting, that is used as a christmas tree decoration. It comes in rolls 2'x30', weighs nothing, and costs like $3/roll. Seems like something that could be layed
down over your path (preferably while it's snowing) to make it much more difficult for someone to spot your footprints.
If the snow is only a couple of inches thick, I've had the idea of making "shoes" out of bocks of w ood with nails driven through them, and them then strapped on your feet.
There's only a few nails, spaced out to provide balance. The nails, being very thin, go through the snow the to concrete (assuming street/parking lot) below, making only a few
very small holes w hich would be easily destroyed by a little snow flurry or sunlight.
Because it's very easy to spot a footprint is even just a slight dusting of snow , it's neccessary to go to such extremes to avoid leaving them.
You could easily sprinkle deicing salt to melt the prints, but that still leaves the trail.
A-BOMB November 12th, 2002, 08:46 AM

Well for me I do the detonations in the summer, put during the winter I do more! ever seen a 1lbs ANMN go off under the 6 inches ice thats covers a pond. :D And getting out
my remote control flame throw er tank and driving it around burning those damn snow men to hell.

snow?? whats that. in england we only have one type of weather, rain. its w arm rain in the summer and cold rain in the winter :p
Mr Cool November 12th, 2002, 02:49 PM

Not just one type of weather, we get that slushy rain in Winter (the kind that's almost snow, but was too lazy to completely freeze so it gave up half w ay), and normal rain the
rest of the time.
I don't actually think a change in climate affects my hobby one way or the other much. Although I probably do more testing in the Winter because there's more darkness.

Like MrCool said, we don't get much proper snowfall here. It's still pretty much Tshirt weather here (not quite below freezing yet :D ).
I like winter for experimenting because all the stupid dog walkers stay w rapped up in doors. Not so good after the rare decent snowfall though, as every bastard is out in it
:rolleyes:
Another great thing about winter is that the ground is frozen solid, it's one of the few time of year you can w alk offroad without getting plastered in mud.
knowledgehungry November 12th, 2002, 04:22 PM

Well for the w inter I plan on making lots of Nitric Acid out in the snow . Nothing w arms you up like being able to distill Nitric without having to keep pouring ice on the receiving
flask :D . Also snow tends to muffle sound so no w orries about pesky people hearing the detonations.
NBK- I wanna move to Montana now :D
mr.evil December 8th, 2002, 01:42 PM

it's now -6 degrees celsius here in Amsterdam, i went out in the w oods today on my bike to chop a w illow tree om for fun, i hate doing nothing in the weekends...
I have some pieces of willow wood now again, it's now drying on a newspaper so next w eek i can burn it in a pan :) i've never made blackpowder with willow charcoal, so i'm
curious what the results w ill be... Though, my blackpowder made with other charcoal from the shops burns quiet fast, 0,75 second per meter or something (in granulated form).
anyway, i like the cold weather, in the summer i sweat my balls off.. i hate it. Now it's nice cold, and white.. and offcourse, set off explosives in snowmans made my little
children :D see them cry HAHA!
To bad i can't do underground detonations in the w inter, as the ground is hard as stone... Maybe i should try an under-ice det.. i guess the w hole ice on the pont will crackle or
something.
anyway, it's not long anymore until new years eve, new years eve is like the 4th of july here, LOTS of firew orks.(no novelties, real stuff)
i guess there will be some spelling mistakes in the text above, sorry! :rolleyes:
[ December 08, 2002, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]

mr evil, why not dig a hole into the hard ground using a shaped charge? not a cone liner one just a concave charge that'll use the munroe effect to focus the blast more onto the
ground. then place a larger charge inside the hole :)
you need one of these in w inter:

<img src="http://ww w.ishop.co.uk/ishop/images/800/0427.jpg" alt=" - " />
[ December 08, 2002, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
MrSamosa December 8th, 2002, 06:30 PM

Ahh, here on the East Coast we've just gotten a lovely bit of snow :) . I like the snow and I enjoy w inter. This is partially because my whole w ardrobe is designed around winter
(don't have many T-shirts or Summer clothes, just sweaters), but also is good for me in relation to my hobby.
With the w eather below freezing much of the time, my garage/w ork-area is basically a refrigerator. It's great for storing Sodas and what-not. This is good for me in relation to
my hobby. The temperature, which tends to be below freezing, is lower than the boiling point of many of the chemicals that I have. As such, I w on't have to worry about many
fumes, which tend to give me headaches :( . Yes, I'm very sensitive to such things.
However, I am recently becoming more interested in energetic materials (especially since I've found some AN, Hexamine, and a source of 30% H2O2 :D ). I don't imagine
temperature control would be as difficult w hen it is 30-45 degrees F in my garage. As such, I may spend my winter catching up with you all in terms of energetic materials. It
will give me something more pleasing to the senses than the various "insecticides" I have. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src= "wink.gif" /> . Hopefully I w ill not lose
any fingers or hearing or vision.
And also, come on: you know you like to have snowball fights, build snowmen, have days off from w ork, and drink hot chocolate < img border= "0" title="" alt= "[Wink]"
src="w ink.gif" /> . NBK- you sound like a boring guy in real life (although on the Forum, you always have fresh and sinister ideas). Go play in the snow w ith some
neighborhood kids eh?
As far as blow ing up snow men go, I may have to try that... revenge for all the times the kiddies run through the fresh, unmolested snow in my yard leaving their damned
footprints and snow angels! :mad:
[ December 08, 2002, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]
knowledgehungry December 8th, 2002, 07:26 PM

Yes we did have some lovely snow it was great for making HMTD and AP, snow w orks much better than ice for an icebath < img border= "0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="w ink.gif" /> . And, since i am still in the loathful State indoctrination facilities i got a day off from school. I love snow :D
spydamonkee December 8th, 2002, 08:22 PM

over here in normal land w e get beautifull sunner weather during christmas and new years, so that means trips to the beach to perve @ pussy, get a tan & blow sand hills to
kingdom come! :D :p

As a canadian I personally love the winter. Besides winter sports, I find that traveling effectivly in the winter and having rock and ice climbing skills gives you a great advantage
over any advisaries w ho wish to persue you in sports cars wearing dress shoes and sweater vests.
By the way, my friend and I w ill probably post an article on urban building scaling and tree climbing using both minimalist ways and proper climbing gear on our web site when it
is all done.

Yes, I'm boring in person. That's because "excitment" tended to cost years of my life behind bars. So I try to avoid being "exciting" as much as possible. <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Though if you're w illing to finance something, I could arrange enough excitement to make you wet yourself in fear. :)
Speaking of wet, I've noticed how even just a slope of a couple of inches in 10 feet, when covered in smooth ice, is very dangerous to w alk on.
(I know this is elementry for you dwellers of the frozen north, but is something new to this sunny californian transplant.)
Naturally w et ice is much more slippery than dry ice. But how does one keep the wetness from freezing solid too?
I'm thinking that if a person used an anti-freeze such as polypropylene glycol, it would remain liquid on top of the ice. The water, being frozen into ice, wouldn't dilute or really
react with the glycol, so the glycol would remain pure and liquid to almost -100. :)
Added to a very slight incline, this'd make for a virtually impossible surface to walk on...or drive on. <img border="0" title= "" alt="[Wink]" src= "w ink.gif" />
Also, I'm thinking that, if one had a liquid that froze into an ice-like substance at a temperature above that of w ater ice, than you could possibly have the same effect at a time
when people wouldn't be expecting it because it's "above freezing". Naturally it'd have to be cheap to be bought in bulk.
Also, I wonder what kind of frostbite injuries one could inflict with a liquid cooled to sub-freezing, and then sprayed/splashed on someone? Frostbite is the same as a heat burn,
so it could be pretty nasty.
NoltaiR December 9th, 2002, 11:41 PM

Here in southtexas we have one type of w eather.. dry. In the 'summer' (which lasts approximately 48-49 w eeks out of the year) we have hot and dry. In the 'fall' (which takes
up the the final 3-4 w eeks) we have dry and cold except for the rare rainfall caused when a wondering hurricane makes it to a nearby coast.. and that is a rare occurence. So
basically over here we don't need special clothing for subzero temperatures unless we plan on playing a game of 'hide-and-seek' in the chest freezer. In fact (and some of you
may find this even more absurd than myself) there are places around where I live (especially the local zoo) that once a year actually BUY snow from nothern United States and
have it shipped down here and pour it all over the ground on a day when the temp actually drops below 50*F. Then you pay a fee of $10 to go play in this half-melted snow for
a few hours until it all melts and turns the ground into mud.
The pathetic thing is that they actually have enough visitors to make profit even after paying the cost to load and ship tons of snow in freezer trucks a thousand+ miles!
Harry December 10th, 2002, 10:44 AM

NBK, your icy ideas may be cool in Kansas, but they'd be redundant in MinneSiberia. A dusting of snow turns transplants into highway crash generators. Even with front wheel, 4
wheel, or all-w heel drive, they just can't seem to drive w ith any form of water on the road. Studded tires will get you a ticket or your car impounded, but studded shoes,
well...let's just say that a pair of carbide cleat soles can be had for under $10--and mostly old folks buy them. So, if you were to glaze the back alleys during a dry spell, escape
would be easy with a set of cleats. The politzei sure w on't be wearing them!
Of course, we natives learn to walk on ice the first winter after learning to run. Play broomball (think hockey with no pads, heavy broomstick, and soccer ball--running shoes--
no skates), body checks more dangerous when you can't stop! (other guy ducks or jumps the boards)
You might try the glycol stunt in private before using for effect. As it mixes with melted ice, it lowers the freezing temp of the water. Read the label on the antifreeze bottle, it
says to mix 50-50 with H2O.
Black ice is our winter Grail around here. They can't prepare for it if they can't see it.
A few years back, couple of iceholes got the idea that they could run a meth lab in an icehouce (shack or tent erected on frozen lake for shelter while fishing. Don't knock until
you try it!) Got busted when a warden noticed all the empty propane bottles. Most guys use a bulk cylinder to heat the shack. Still, the court just ruled that "reasonable cause"
is necessary to search boat or icehouse, so if a fellow keeps it clean and quiet...
Harry

Ok, I relent, it is offically w inter now, as I wore a coat for the first time today. Took a walk to my favourite lake at my test-site, expecting it to be frozen over and armed w ith
150gm ANNM. There were not one, but two people bloody fishing on MY lake in MY favourite spots! Damn them!
Anyway, when it gets colder I intend to detonate a 1-2kg charge underneath the ice and try to capture it with a camera equipped with a fast motor drive :)
knowledgehungry December 10th, 2002, 04:26 PM

NBK if yo w ant something which gives instant frost bite just use compressed air(for cleaning keyboards) shake it up and spray it upside down. The liquid CO2 turning into a gas
absorbs a tremendous amount of heat.
NERV December 10th, 2002, 04:33 PM

My winters are spent mostly indoors. I hate snow, ice, and cold, unless it cancels school (in that case snow rocks). I usually use the wintertime to catch up on my chem. studies.
Of course someone like me cant stay cramped up for long periods of time without some explosions. So every so often I sneak out and blow up some annoying little fucks
snowman. I hope to take a snowman out this weekend w ith some AN/MEKP, that should suffice me for a few w eeks(days :p ).
BoB- December 11th, 2002, 02:29 AM

I'm pretty sure the "compressed air" in those cleaner dealies is some ethane, its not compressed air.
Deceiver December 26th, 2002, 05:54 PM

yea they changed it after little jimmy froze his eyes shut and mommy sued the company. it used to be liquid Nitrogen anyw ays not CO2.
++ ++++ +++ ++++ +++ ++++ ++++ +++ ++++ +++ ++++ +++ ++++ +++
I've deleted the rest of this lames crappy post to spare the rest of the membership the displeasure of soiling their eyes with such painful stupidity.
Suffice it to say that the little fecal sample I left at the top indicates the level on w hich this person w as operating on. :rolleyes:
Anyways, this turd's been wiped. :D
knowledgehungry December 31st, 2002, 11:57 AM

I'm sorry it is not CO2, it is tetraflouroethane(i think that is how it is spelled im sorry but i forget) 100% it says.
[ December 31, 2002, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: knowledgehungry ]
simply RED January 1st, 2003, 05:47 AM

A very good cooling mix that reaches -90 degrees C is made by mixing dry ice(solid CO2) and acetone
<a href="http://129.59.92.139/srdesign/2000/group4_00/Cryoembedding.htm" target= "_blank">http://129.59.92.139/srdesign/2000/group4_00/Cryoembedding.htm</a>
Applying it on someone will almost instantly kill him.
Another good idea is to use some mixtures containing water and salt (for example CaCl2) they can also reach very low temperatures and keep them if it is solid "ice" in the
mix.
I was unable to find info on the temperatures that the mixtures of salts and water reach. (but there were mixtures that reach -22 and more (less :) ).
COOOOOOOOOOOL!!!
Mr Cool January 1st, 2003, 08:24 AM

There's a freezing mixture in a book I've got somewhere that gets below -50*C. The only trouble is it uses 100% HNO3, which has better uses < img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src= "wink.gif" /> .
But even using water, ice and common salts (things like ammonium nitrate, ammonium chloride, calcium chloride etc) you can get almost to liquid ammonia temperatures I
think. Although I haven't seen one that could actually liquefy ammonia.
Sarevok February 18th, 2003, 01:01 AM

Posted by simply RED:
<blockquote>quote:< hr /> Another good idea is to use some
mixtures containing w ater and salt (for example CaCl2) they can also reach very low temperatures and keep them if it is solid "ice" in the mix. <hr />< /
blockquote> 40g of CaCl2 diluted in 100g of H 2O warms the water from 20C to 90C.
It's an Exothermic Reaction (liberates heat, not a Endothermic Reaction, w hich absorbs heat):
CaCl2 + H2 O -> Ca2+ (aq) + 2Cl-(aq) + 82,2 kJ (liberated heat)
Good links for you:
<a href="http://www .gnofn.org/~ lusher/chem.html" target= "_blank">Chemistry Demonstrations: Exothermic and Endothermic Reactions</a>
<a href="http://spallation.physics.sc.edu/~blanpied/physics787/s_bailey/EndothermicExothermi.doc" target="_blank">Endothermic vs. Exothermic</a>
[We've just covered that in the "Freezing at Low Temps" thread which at the moment is right below this one on the index, it gets either hot or cold depending on whether you
use anhydrous CaCl2 or the hydrate.] (Machiavelli)
Thanks, Machiavelli. Sorry about my wrong information.
[ February 18, 2003, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: Sarevok ]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Eye in the Sky (AKA
"Overwatch")
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View Full Version : Eye in the Sky (AKA "Overwatch")

Was at this site( <a href="http://www.rctoys.com/draganflyerxpro.php" target="_blank">http://www.rctoys.com/
draganflyerxpro.php</a> ) and was quite impressed with the machine.
What got my attention, besides the $5,000 price <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> , was the ability of this
thing to manuever. Forwards, backwards, up, or down, don't matter. Even just hovering.
With a half mile range on the controls, plus an onboard videocamera (that tilts AND pans! :) ) and the ability to carry a 1
pound payload...I see some potential! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
While a job is going down, a person outside is flying overwatch with one of these. He'd be able to see piggies coming from
MILES down the road. This gives the crimies inside the advantage of being able to flee before piggies arrive to stop them.
Also, that one pound payload could be useful. An MLRS bomblet that can penetrate 4" of steel, and has a letal radius of 4
meters, weighs less than a pound. Not that you'd likely have a bomblet, but you could build something similar to drop right on
top of some bacon head if they got in the way. Death from above, and all that. :)
The ability to get full 360 coverage of a target area would allow you to construct 3D walkarounds to determine lines of sight,
area and elevations, and other details that could be of use in planning a job. (RTPB: 7P's)
[ November 15, 2002, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
Crow November 15th, 2002, 11:37 PM

I had seen this awhile back when I was looking up RC planes with the ability to take photos for some sort of recon or spying
work. Back then it did'nt have the video recording feature, the ability to fold, and I don't remember seeing a 1lb pay load then
either.
I agree this does have great potential for spotting the po po from quite a long distance but it is a bit pricy and gives out a
defening screech from its 4 motors.
Something like this could be made in your work shop for less than 1/4 that price but the quality would be shotty, and the use
of gyros is something I would have to look up to have function correctly. They also give you some schematics, so its even
easier to make your own.
I doubt any of the Forum members would buy something like this, but I will most likely buy a $300 RC and just take snap
shots, or if possible find a very lightweight camera which sends video to a computer.

They have a much smaller one that can carry just a fixed videocamera, for less than a thousand.
It'd all depend on what you're doing. They also have some really inexpensive RC planes that could carry a camera.
I've also seen a kite/plane hybrid. It goes up like a kite, but is released and flown like a glider. Even has a space for carrying
stuff (like cameras). This cost about $200. Fly it up, do some KAP, then release it to so a spiral 360 around the target before
gliding it back to you for retrieval.
If the weather is co-operative, you could use a ramfoil kite to carry up a videocamera to provide overwatch, then simply cut it
loose to save the time of trying to reel it in. At less than $300 per unit, it's cheap insurance.
Of course, in order for overwatch to work, you have to have someone capable of running it who you could trust not to bug out
and leave you hanging when the coppers showed up.
LOP: "Never depend on a persons loyalty, rather their self-interest."
In this case, you've got their biography written on your body with permanent marker, just as they do yours (though yours is
fake...RTPB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). If the cops catch you, when they're examining your
body (I'm assuming death prefered over capture), they'll have all the info they need to round up your crimies.
Thus, it's in overwatch's best interest to ensure that NOBODY gets caught, otherwise they're going down with you.
Or, you could be overwatch and not even be on the scene. If piggies approach, take out your crimies and roll out before they
show up. (RTPB: Kill your crimies)
Your hands are clean since you weren't even seen at the scene (being on the other side of the river, or such), and anyone who
could connect you is laying on a slab, talking only to God. :)
Which leads into another idea I've had, based on a columbian extortion technique from the '80s. But that's for the DVD, sorry.
Arkangel November 16th, 2002, 01:41 AM

Seems like the 1lb payload is going to be a big fuck off battery:
"How Long Does It Fly For?

It will fly about 5-6 minutes depending on flight conditions. The on board battery is a 14 cell, 3000mAh Nickel Metal Hydrate
battery."
I would have thought that an RC helicopter would be far better. Get a 1/12 scale Apache, with it's own .22 minigun and
Hellfirettes :D
[ November 16, 2002, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]
spydamonkee November 16th, 2002, 01:58 AM

me has a R/c Chopper .. this one here >>> <a href="http://www.littlerotors.com/articles/sceadu-201001/index.asp"
target="_blank">http://www.littlerotors.com/articles/sceadu-201001/index.asp</a>
aint built it up yet though :/

The thing about the battery is that it's rechargable since the XP is intended as a recreational toy for rich people, thus economy
is needed in the choice of a power supply. Not many people could/would fly it if it sucked up $100 worth of batteries every time
it flew.
However, in a "combat" scenario, the cost of a much higher power density Li-ion one time use battery would be justified by the
lighter weight and greater flight time than the rechargeable would allow for.
If a Li battery that cost you $100 allowed you to fly for 10 minutes, that'd be adequate. Figure two minutes prep/liftoff/FTO, 5
minutes loiter over objective, and two minutes return with one or two minutes "fudge" factor.
This would allow you to retain the payload capacity, while increasing flight time. I'd imagine that if you had nothing to drop,
that the extra pound could be used by another battery, increasing flight time dramatically.
I don't foresee any realistic scenario that requires such a UAV that would require on site times of more than five minutes.
Realisticly, you'd want your people off-site in under two minutes if it wasn't possible to previously cut off the victims ability to
call for help.
RTPB: Lack of proper investment...
Practice flight skills on the rechargable, put in work with a one-time battery. :)
[ November 16, 2002, 02:51 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
xoo1246 November 16th, 2002, 07:08 AM

Remove
[ December 28, 2002, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
X-Wulf November 16th, 2002, 08:31 AM

Speaking of kites-come-gliders, why not use an RC glider?
On a hot day in an urban area, those things can fly on thermals for hours on end. The larger ones can carry quite a weight of
batteries (for those all day flying situations), but seeing as we're not flying all day, substitute most of the batteries with
whatever payload you see fit, be it for recon, decoy, whatever.
And considering that most of these things are damn cheap (only a body with a receiver and some servos) they're expendable
too.
And a big plus is that they're silent.
kingspaz November 16th, 2002, 08:40 AM

don't inovate immitate (one of the RTPB's i believe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).
X-Wulf is right about gliders. the soviet U2 spy plane was nothing more than a glider with a small jet engine and that turned
out to be VERY succesful. also the problem with a helicopter is getting someone to fly it! model aircraft aren't the sort of thing
you can just pick up and do like an RC car or anything. i've never actually flown a RC helicopter but i've known people with
them. they are a bitch to fly!
a glider on the other hand is a piece of piss and wouldn't require much training. also if in an urban area all you'd need to do is
get one of those gliders with the folding prop on the front and a small electric motor in them. motor on whilst you chuck it off a
building, get a little height then motor off and glide. the motor could also be used for backup if the glider got caught in a
downdraft near a building.
[ November 16, 2002, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
Anthony November 16th, 2002, 11:00 AM

The only advantage electric has over ICE (that we care about) is noise, but if this thing screams anyway, might as well power it
with ICE and get an hour of flight time out of it. For hostage situations, an extended flight would be handy for monitoring your
perimiter.
IMO $5000 is a rip off, there's nothing to it, the hardest bit would be the computer controll, all you're paying for is the R&D
costs.
But what advantage does this thing have over a regular helicopter design, which would be easier/cheaper to build and fly?

Actually, the XP is easier to fly compared to a regular RC copter because it has 3 gyroscopes for computerized flight
stabilization. It's self-leveling, whereas a regular copter requires you to control roll/pitch/yaw all at the same time.
As for noise, electrics are much more quiter than an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) for the same power. So while the XP
makes a loud whine closeup, that sound "disappears" at distance, making it pretty much stealth.
They also have a helium filled flying disc that would make virtually NO noise, but you could only use it on dead calm days
since it IS a ballon.
The advantage ICE has over electric is flight time. But, as stated, I don't see it being needed for more than a few minutes. If
a person needed a long-term overwatch, then I'd say a ballon would be the way to go.
In an old popular mechanics article I read about polymeric foams as NLW, it also mentioned how you could make blobs of
foam filled with helium that would float away that you could shoot with a rifle, but the blob would continue floating away
because it wasnt' a ballon, but rather like a thousand little ballons stuck together.
Well...your overwatch ballon could be a simple mesh net filled with this polymeric helium foam. Piggies try shooting down your
ballon... :p They'd then have to try shooting the string. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Good luck on
that one. :D
Fukineh December 10th, 2002, 12:08 AM

What about a blimp? As long as its quiet and out of site so that it doesn't get shot down, It would be ultra quiet, fairly stable,
be able to stay in the air for long periods of time, and of course much cheaper. You could also deflate if for easier carrying (It
would of course have to be larger than the dragon flyer). Hook it up with a good night vision camera or if you want to go
cheaper a crappy one with an infrared flashlight. As long as your rivals don't have night vision aimed at the sky and discover
the source of the infrared light th at is shining on them, you ll be all set. Besides, blimps are just too cool to turn your ba ck on.
Even the word em bodies the meanin g of "cool, and by cool, I mean totally sweet :D ! BLIMP!
Quote taken from <a href="http://www.realultimatepower.net/." target="_blank">http://www.realultimatepower.net/.</a>
Go to this crackass web sight to discover the roots of true insanity, and to laugh at a dumbass.
[ December 09, 2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Fukineh ]

Here we see a k3wL in its natural habit.
<a href="http://www.msu.edu/~couilla3/ninja/kidgarbage.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.msu.edu/~couilla3/ninja/

kidgarbage.jpg</a>
Note how the male of the species is reared up in an agressive posture, in an attempt to scare off the intruder.
:p
Blimps would be good on windless days, but are static. Being able to move your point of view greatly increases the utility of
overwatch, unless you're looking for ships over the horizon or such.

If the heli were outfitted with a high powered rifle, I think we could see the ultimate teli-sniper.
No police sniper too high, no terrain too difficult, The heli-sniper could kill the mark while they're sitting at there desk on the
83rd floor of there high rise office building.
Or the heli could be equipped with a machine gun, it could then suddenly appear over the horizon and make pass after pass
of full-auto .22 poison filled machinegun fire into crowds killing and disappearing in seconds.
If size isnt an issue then we can get into some serious mechanised protection;
<a href="http://www.internetage.com.au/taagc/taagcpics/skyhookpicb-2.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.internetage.com.au/

taagc/taagcpics/skyhookpicb-2.jpg</a>
With heavy-duty high quality mufflers, this machine would be ideal. It could carry hundreds of pounds of electronics, and
weapons. The limited R/C could be replaced by a twin cellphone based internet connection, enabling the hero to be several
hundred miles away on his laptop.
The digital camera could be full-sized and the highest quality, it could even be equipped with thermal imaging, or night vision,
and telescopic zoom.
The weapons could carry much more ammunition, along with small rocket battery's, and since our hero is far away from the
scene it could even be equipped with chemical weapons.
Every pass would mean unbeleivable destruction, laying down .30 caliber armor-peircing machine gun fire, dropping cyanide
grenades, launching rockets into buildings starting fires, and spraying pirahna fluid onto crowds.
Even when the beast is finally shot down it responds by releasing copius amounts of Cyanide gas.
It could also have several heli-snipers attached to it, when released, the CCTV signal could be received by the main unit and
then converted and relayed to our hero, The machine could CY its own A.
john_smith December 10th, 2002, 04:54 AM

Sounds nice, but you'd probably need a stabilizing platform for the rifle.

Here's a thought - to combat any form of heli-weapon, the cops would probably call for airforce help. Obviously, shooting down
a normal sized heli, or gyro-copter would be easier for the fighter jets guarding America's skies. But, would an RC sized heli
prove difficult for them? Small physical size, very small manouvering space required, small heat signature.
An RC chopper with the .22 mingun would be awesome! Imagine looking out of your office window in your CEO office and
seeing this strange thing hovering out there... Then suddenly it lights up, spraying fire through the shattered glass, empty
cartridges raining down onto people 50 floors below :D
Might get some bad turbulence around high rise buildings, especially with such a light craft.
Dudes's almost done with puberty, that's bragable. I'm off out to try and see some old man pop 19 boners! :D
Arkangel December 10th, 2002, 11:55 AM

Oooops, you found one of my favourite sites - the Ninja homepage.....
For a dumbass, he's not doing bad, with over 6 million hits.... I don't actually believe it's a kid, or if it is, he's a funny, smart
one. The site's just a piss take, even the hate mail - did you see the fake CNN articles?
Anyway, does anyone remember the siege in the Church of the Nativity a few months ago?? The IDF used a motorised blimp
to monitor what was going on in the church. The weakness of their system was the fact that there could only be a few
compartents in that sort of thing - use the bubbles described by NBK inside something like that and you have a pretty
surviveable machine.
BUT, anything like this is going to be difficult to use in any kind of high rise city, even larger aircraft have to be really careful,
especially on warm days, when cities create a lot of thermals.
If the dragonflyer has gyro stabilisation, how come that hasn't been fitted to a model helicopter yet? That would make a lot
more sense to me.

Don't trust hit counters. They can be started at any number desired.
With the draganflyer, all the rotational torques are on the same horizontal plane.
Whereas, with a regular heli, it's on two, horizontial [lift rotor], and vertical [tail rotor].
I'd think it neigh impossible to shot down an RC heli with a missle or any kind of aerial weapon. Simply because the things are
so tiny, have virtually no heat emission (being electric), and also being made of carbon fiber composite (radar invisible)
It could be safely assumed that all cellular and normal R/C freqencies are jammed in the immediate area of any world leaders
public appearence, precisely to protect against such attacks.
However, with a line of sight, and suitable electronics, I could envision a full duplex communications link using lasers. Light is
limited only by your visibility and obstructions. Given how your weapon is high in the sky, it's LOS is very long and clear. :)
Defense against an R/C weapon could be as simple as some professional skeet gunners with shotguns, or as complex as a
PHALANX type weapon on a mobile platform with millimetric radar.
If a little UAV where to be carrying an EFP, then it could simply be fired (and destroyed) when aligned with the target from a
distance of 50 yards or more. This depends on accurate construction of the charge and testing, but could be done. Such a
weapon would defeat any body armor, pop up shield, barrier glass, or bodyguard bodies that may get in the way. <img
GPS is cheap nowadays. A large ballon could be used to loft a bomb up to drift over the target area from miles away. Once in
the general proximity of the target, the bomb is released. It falls to earth, being guided by GPS. Once at a suitable altitude, it
opens, dispensing a cluster bomblet payload to saturate the target zone and to account for any inherent inaccuracies in the
system.
Even if (somehow) shot down, the bomblets would still likely be scattered over a populated area, causing havoc. A win-win
either way. :D
Ctrl_C December 10th, 2002, 09:56 PM

what about modifying one of those tiny RC engines to hook up to a small (you can get pretty tiny ones) generator to power
the thing. Whole thing might weigh a few ounces w/ fuel. Feasible?

The original dragon flyer can be purchased for a fraction of the price of the new pro version. It is obviosly not as good though-
less manouverable and stable, I don't think it can carry as much of a payload, and it probably has less power, range, and
flying time.

Ctrl_c's idea is a good one and would keep the batteries charged. If the engine was insulated (overheating problems, I know)
so that the exhaust was the only thing that would give a heat signiture, then the output of the generator could be shorted (in
flight) to stall the engine, if it's heat sig was about to become a problem. The generator could then be spun up from battery
power to restart the engine.
I'm not sure of the sensitivity of heat seaking ATA weapons, would your average RC engine likely be a problem?
Skeet shooters would be a problem, but staying at 100yds should render them moot. Or drop some bomblets in their vicinity,
or lay down some fire from the minigun - much more fun :) I sure as hell would risk my life trying to destroy a model aircraft.
A-BOMB December 11th, 2002, 09:10 AM

Wouldn't it be easier to just power it by gas in stead of the extra weight of a generator and batteries.

It'd a lot harder to preciesely control the speed of four IC engines than 4 electric motors.
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur December 11th, 2002, 12:49 PM

Has anyone here seen scrap-heap challenge (or scrap wars if you happen to be a yank) as they had an episode that was SO
much like this, two teams (as normal) had to build an airborne bomber (able to carry and drop one bomblet that weighed in at
about 3/4 kg)
one team built (out of pure scrap i remind you!) a working r/c airplane that dropped the bomb a la' stuker style (refering to
the german stuker dive-bomber) but hit rocks and self-destructed. The other team built a blimp, with a few car fans for
guidance (unfortunatly the wind was at about 10/15 mph and so it crapped out)
the blimp was a load of cat scrotum, but the dive-bomber was real class :D i can imagine a few in flying in formation,
controlled by one or two people, delivering 20kg of hi-ex <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> (if five were
built with 4 kg load) but as WE have access to more professional equipment (i.e. not scrap) i can imagine that a r/c plane in
the form of a B-52 with multiple bomblets could be fabricated,
scorched earth rules! :D

here's an idea make a rather large rocket and instead of a parachute flopping out the plane/glider comes out at the peak
height, which whould be around 2-300 ft and then it slowly spirals back to the ground all the while transmitting video of the
surrounding area(s) or crashes into a building if you have to scrap your objectives. also get a few weather balloons on 170ft
tethers with wireless cameras on them worst comes to worst cut the tether. and you out maybe $200 depending on the quality
of camera you choose to put on them

They make model rockets that release gliders, the problem with them is obvious, the huge cloud of smoke, the noise. We're
going for something more discreet here.
I know it couldnt hover, or take clear photos, but for destruction purposes a model bomber would be very effective. Its passes
could be alot quicker, making it more difficult to shoot down, and it could use more powerful pulse-jet liquid rocket engines
making its range alot bigger.

With technology making cameras ever cheaper and lighter, I've got an idea in mind for the future.
You know those toys were you shot this dart-like object into the air with a slingshot, and it spins down like a helicopter?
Well, with a tiny camera in the nose, and the things being only a few dollars each, you could carry a handful of them, and
shoot them over a house (or other single story building) to see what was waiting on the other side or on the roof.
Pick them up as you go and you could keep your path well covered and observed.
A rocket launched glider would be useful in a highly dynamic situation where you don't have time to set up and launch
something more complex. I could see a car chase where you had to know whether there's any cops blocking the road ahead.
They'd already be on your ass, so it doesn't matter if they see a rocket launching into the sky. Might even distract them since
they don't know what the hell it's for.
In rural areas where there's no wires crossing the road overhead, you could tow a kite to high altitude. That would allow you to
see for many miles in all directions. You could even use it to spot a surveillance helicopter flying at a distance. Thanks to
electronic advances, your camera can have pan/tilt/zoom, plus day/night/thermal...if you can afford it.
I've seen radars for ships selling for a few thousand dollars. I know they're aimed towards the water, but what if you inverted
them? Would they then be able to detect low flying aircraft?
[ultimate wet dream]
A van with an air-surveillance radar to detect low flying piggie choppers. TV guided SAM can then be launched from built in
concealed launcher to engage the flying pork, removing the threat. :D
[/ultimate wet dream]
I pray to Satan every day to win a huge lottery prize. Then my Hellish reign will begin and the Antichrist released!
MUWAHAHAHA! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D
Flake2m December 13th, 2002, 10:16 AM

NBK you sometimes have some very weird fantasies :D .
Th blimp idea is a really good idea though the main problem with them is that they aren't to good in bad weather.
I personally would go for an RC plane if I needed overwatch and had a large area. RC planes are fast enough to be difficult to
hit small enough to be difficult to notice. Some of the larger models can also carry decent payloads. Some RC planes also
have flight times of 20 mins+ on a tank of fuel.
Blimps are good if you want all day observation. You simply launch it with a camera attached and you can monitor your
surroundings all day.
RC planes are more for patroling an area, you also need direct LOS (line Of Sight) to fly them properly. I suppose if you
attached a camera to the nose aswell as an alttimeter you could fly them without LOS. RC planes also always need someone
controlling them. I have not yet known of a realitively cheap auto pilot system.
RC planes are fairly easy to fly compared to helicopters, the only really difficult part is landing them.
Finally, If you are setting up some "business" in an open area (park, oval etc). If one of your associates is flying an RC
planes around, you can always tell your client that the RC plane isn't yours but some kid is flying one. If you have a blimp in
the air, your client might get a bit nervous and you also wont have a good excuse to deny it is yours.
nbk2000 June 3rd, 2004, 10:48 PM

The military uses "aerostats", MIL-SPEAK for "balloon on a tether", for perimeter security/C3/surveillance/etc.
But that's all so terribly passive, I think.
Why not stick a stabilized gun platform underneath the balloon and use that to not only watch people, but kill them as well?
A .50 barrett would be liftable by a small blimp-style balloon, and would be able to engage anything lighter than an MBT at
over 2KM. Might as well toss in some bomblet dispensers while we're at it.
Go even further...use a rigid body balloon with a simple jet engine, mounting the .50, incorporate in a day/night targeting
system using thermal imaging/NVD, and you'd be good to go.
Not only would you be free of the tether, but you could use the "Aerosault" (aero-assualt :D) as your own close ground support
firing platform, since it could manuever around at speeds faster than anything on the ground could run away from it.
Kinda' like a poor-mans SPECTRE gunship, only controllable by one person. ;)
pyromaniac_guy June 5th, 2004, 03:24 AM

as a bit of an update to this thread, look at the website mentioned in the OP. the company now offers a knock off of the
predator UAV, with electric power of up to 4 hrs endurance (at 50 knots) and can be bought complete with wireless video and
autopilot packages that will make the plane take off and land on it's own... no need any longer to have someone know how to
fly an RC craft, just loft the drone 20 miles away from wherever you need survalance, use a few watt amplifier to make the 900
mhz video transmitter a bit better than line of sight, and presto, fully autonomous eye in the sky...
if a pound of payload onthe predator isnt enough for you, check out http://intellitechmicrosystems.com/vp.htm
this off the shelf UAV is good for 17 lbs of payload...
also, someone mentioned using a marine radar to look for police helicopters. marine radars dont point at the water, they point
at the horizon just like any other radar set. the problem is that they dont look at a very high angle over the horizon so you
could only use it for detecting areil targets that were far away from you. i know marine radar can see things as small as
channel markers, so they should see a helicopter, however a helicopter moves prety quick, so finding it on such a radar set
might be, at best, difficult.
xperk June 5th, 2004, 01:29 PM

A Barrett would be hard to use for a second shot as the recoil would very likely send the ballon swinging wildly.
Perhaps a lower calibre with higher rate of fire could be more controllable as the recoil would appear more graduatelly, the
recoil could then be countered with a high-speed propellar attached to the stock to counter the swings.
The AM 180 was tried marketed for third world countries in its quad configuration. The high rate of fire would be benefitial when
directing it remotely, as the spray could be 'walked' to the target.
In the case of a blimb or rc the quad would be to heavy but a single would still do nicely.
http://www.american180.com/history/index.html
Makdaam August 25th, 2004, 06:27 PM

A blimp/baloon is completely out of question at low altitudes... a delta/flying wing moto-glider (with a small triple phase motor
and light Li-Poly rechargables) would allow a 2-3hour flight (first get it as high as possible using the motor then use thermals
to keep it up) before the RC equippement batteries run out...
And with R/C planes the only limit is weight (you can fly things up to 35kg without a license) and a 3x1,5m delta flyer can lift
enough video cameras :P
If you want to mount a weapon, try some fun-flys (fast acrobatic planes with IC engines) they are always overpowered (most
of them can perform a vertical take-off is positioned right) so lifting a small gun shouldn't be a problem, but it wouldn't be too
accurate :\ so maybe some chemical/ignition bomblets instead?
Serria April 23rd, 2007, 06:50 PM

There is always the cheap route for your airframe, granted the radio, servos and engine is going to cost more, but the
airframe itself can be built for around $30.00, if you mostly salvaged plastic.
This site has several plans for various aircraft, most of them take less than a day to build and have the advantage of being
very cheap so, if/when it get's destroyed, nobody loses any sleep about it.
http://www.spadtothebone.com/freeplans.htm
I'm currently working on building the Spad Extra to carry a video camera around my house.
Skean Dhu April 25th, 2007, 11:57 PM
There is also the ever popular Zagnutz airframe made from 3mm depron/fan-fold/blue-core foam.
http://home1.gte.net/texhills/index.html
For additional range it is possible to use the HAM frequencies to control your aircraft and transmit video back to you. Although
it is ilegal to do so without proper FCC licensing, which I know anyone here who would use HAM frequencies would have their
HAM license with them while operationg their aircraft.
nbk2000 September 23rd, 2007, 05:22 AM

A site that details construction of home-brew UAV's that have photographic and video capabilities, as well as GPS and auto-
pilots made from LEGO mindstorm bricks. :)
http://diydrones.com/
Some more specific links:

http://diydrones.com/profiles/blog/show?id=705844%3ABlogPost%3A788
Pano-stitching of pictures from said UAV's:

http://www.thelongtail.com/the_long_tail/2007/09/uav-image-proce.html
monkeyboy September 23rd, 2007, 06:24 AM

Thanks for resurrecting this thread, I just saw some stuff along these lines & was getting ready to make a new thread (Search
engine? What search engine?:o)...
So here:
http://www.uavp.de/index.php/de/
Open Source Quadro Copter
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/05/opensourcequadrocopter_op.html
Synopsis on Make
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJXv-Qm4ZUc
Gyro-stabilized camera mount
http://www.rc-cam.com/rc-cam3a.htm
RC-CAM3 PROJECT
http://www.tarbox.org/helicontrol.html
building a UAV
http://www.lylechamberlain.com/indoorcollisionavoidanceandnavigation
Indoor Collision Avoidance and Navigation
http://www.hackaday.com/2007/08/10/cccamp-2007-quad-copters/
CCCamp 2007: Quad-copters
Toggle September 24th, 2007, 01:15 AM

There is always the cheap route for your airframe,...
Depending on your requirements you could go for a really cheap 'eye in the sky'. A digital camera with a timer attached to a
box kite. I have heard of people looking for the foundations of long-lost buildings this way. This works best when the sun is
low in the sky.
Replace the digital camera with a RC controlled TV camera and you'd have a very discrete surveillance system. The paparazzi
would love something like this.
At least until the wind dies :)
Tinton September 28th, 2007, 11:54 PM

This plane is definitly not worth it. $2,000? A few minutes of flight time? A pound of Cargo? Not only that, but if this is the
Dragonfly brand I am familiar with, this is merely a toy. A little more ruggedly built, and a little less toy-like, and this would be
perfect for quite a bit of stuff...
I don't think remote controlled helicopters should be shot down so quickly (hur hur), many can fly in strong winds, with large
payloads, and for long periods of time.
.90 size helicopters are amazing. They can carry about 10 pounds, fly for around a half hour, faster than 60 miles an hour,
and at a distance of about 2 miles from the operator. Seriously, just youtube these things. You can add anything you want, 10
pounds it quite a bit of cargo. I can think of a few things that weigh less than ten pounds ;)
Yet, these are hard to master; and your going to want a master. But I'm sure some RC helicopter lovers would graciously fly
your 'copter for free.
But, these things are loud, big, and somewhat expensive.... But then again, that might not be a bad thing. You could use it as
a last resort weapon. .30 sized helicopters can remove fingers and put 1" gashes into car doors. Imagine what a .90 sized
helicopter could do.
EDIT: I just watched a video of a master flying a .90. It is absolutly amazing. It darts around just like a dragonfly(insect), and
can accelerate in no time. It goes from hovering; to 50 yards away, to hovering again in less than 5 seconds. Imagine being
the police confronted with such a device? What are they going to do? Fire up into the air at something that moves faster than
a clay bird in trap shooting? Are they going to bring out stingers and try to lock onto its heat signal? I'm pretty sure stingers
are more expensive than these helicopters....

This plane is definitly not worth it.
You need to be more specific, as many 'planes' have been discussed.
And as for large R/C helicopters being dangerous:
http://www.combatreform.com/defrev/NRI_Weaponized_AutoCopter_Explorer_Gunship_2.jpg (http://www.defensereview.com/
modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1039)
2x 12-gauge full-auto shotguns, firing grenade slugs. :D

The smaller options, surely, in the USA, the police would simply take it down with a shotgun? In the UK, they'd have no clue
what to do. CS gas it? I don't think so!
The only effective option they would have would be to get really close then use an air tazer, hoping that the wires would tangle
the rotor(s), or, perhaps, throw a net or whatever rope they have at it. Easily avoided by being more than 30 yards away,
unless they get a lucky shot throwing something like a tennis ball.
In an urban setting they would never get permission (in the UK) to arm up and start shooting at it. Even in the countryside
they wouldn't, unless you were killing people left and right. Of course, they would try to target the operator...
anonymous411 October 8th, 2007, 02:23 PM

Daydreaming aloud here, but I wonder what could be done with a cheap, backdoored, internet-enabled camera phone. If you
could write some software that would allow you to fully view the phone remotely, you could collect data anywhere in real-time.
Very light and disposable, perfect! The phone memory would pose a limitation, but that can be worked around.
I 'm thinking the Virgin Mobile Kyocera cyclops ($99 prepaid) might be a good candidate here, though I don't know if it's as
hackable as something like a Razr v3. I'll have a superfluous Razr to experiment with in a few days...if I get anywhere with
this, I'll keep you posted.
Unsunghero October 18th, 2007, 05:47 PM

Perhaps you could just stream it live instead of using up all the phones memory. Essentially what it does is use the memory
required to "buffer", then deletes it from the memory, similar to watching a movie on youtube but..piece by piece..
NoltaiR October 23rd, 2007, 07:04 PM

I think they were just regular shotgun shells
[image="http://www.combatreform.com/defrev/NRI_Weaponized_AutoCopter_Explorer_Gunship_8.jpg"]
monkeyboy October 24th, 2007, 02:37 AM

... internet-enabled camera phone. If you could write some software that would allow you to fully view the phone remotely...
Virgin Mobile Kyocera cyclops... as hackable as something like a Razr v3.
My phone runs Windows...

Windows mobile, that is. Very easy to hack. Has a registry, just like the big boys. Relatively straightforward to install & run a
plethora of applications on it. I recently came across a spectrum analyzer and a sonar program for it, neat.
I see Windows mobile phones quite cheap on ebay. Sometimes referred to as a "smart" phone. Probably ought to try & get at
least WM 5.0 or above.

A very capable microUAV, for either 15K or 50K (couldn't tell for sure, accent so thick), but that was from a video about a
system designed for fire/rescue, complete with thermal imager and virtual headset.
For lowest weight and highest robustness we have designed the drone completely in carbon fiber reinforced plastics. This
carbon mono frame is also a perfect shield against electromagnetic interferences.
Our outstanding AAHRS (Altitude and Attitude and Heading Reference System) uses the following sensortypes: Accelerometers,
Gyroscopes, Magnetometer, Airpressure, Humidity, Temperature.
By means of our synchronized, brushless direct drives (transmissionless) the noise level is very low (rpm < 2000, noise <
63dBA @3m). These propulsions recover from stall and overload conditions even at flight time.
The optional GPS provides position hold and autonomous waypoint navigation.
Our onboard flight recorder (microSD card) permits a post-flight analysis in real-time.
With our downlink decoder we provide all important data at the base station (battery state, altitude, attitude, position,
flighttime...).
For best pilot support we have implemented a talking audio response system (no need to look at a display).
Security features prevent from crashing - autonomous landing on low battery or missing radio signal.
Depending on payload, temperature and wind the vehicle achieves up to 20 minutes of flight time.
http://www.microdrones.com/md4-200.html
http://www.microdrones.com/md4-200/md4-200_800.gif
Bugger November 15th, 2007, 01:34 PM

News of relevance here:
Daily Express (UK), Wednesday 14th November 2007:
The UK's first police "spy drone" has taken to the skies.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/view/7613
I wonder if it has anything to do with the whimsical saying "if only Pigs could fly"!
megalomania November 15th, 2007, 02:03 PM

Here is the poor mans version of the MicroUAV nbk2000 posted, the DraganFlyer V Ti...
For a mere $1000 with the video camera, or $800 without, this thing is a self stabilizing r/c helicopter.
No previous R/C experience? No problem. If you lose orientation while flying the Draganflyer V Ti outdoors, simply release the
right stick and its infrared stabilizers will automatically restore a stable hover with half a second! Thermal Intelligence
eliminates most of the dangers and provides both safety and fun while training and flying. If you run low on batteries, the
innovative electronic control system prevents battery over-discharge by limiting available power. Lose transmitter signal? It will
descend safely and autonomously outdoors. Incorporated into each Draganflyer V Ti's patented control board are four infrared
heat sensors and three state-of-the-art piezo gyros which provide automatic self-leveling for an effortless outdoor piloting
experience. Sound incredible? It is.
Is it fragile? Hardly. The Draganfly V Ti's durability is unmatched by conventional RC helicopters. The Draganfly's body is
virtually indestructible due to its tough carbon-fiber and high-impact nylon construction. How high and fact will it go? It flies up
to 30mph and as high as you can see (at 200ft the helicopter is a dot in the sky) even though the radio range is
approximately 1/2 a mile. The Draganflyer V Ti can lift 4 ounces, effortlessly and also uses durable Nylon Injected rotors that
are efficient, safe and inexpensive to replace. The Draganflyer's sophisticated control board, its minimal number of parts, and
lessened repair costs ensure a heavier wallet and a happier R/C helicopter pilot.
http://www.reallycooltoys.com/images/df/dfkit.gif http://www.reallycooltoys.com/images/df/dfflight.gif http://

www.reallycooltoys.com/images/df/dfplate.gif
http://www.reallycooltoys.com/toys/i3info.html
Charles Owlen Picket November 16th, 2007, 10:46 AM

This brings voyeurism to whole new levels (pun intended). Watch for a whole new genre' of pictures flooding the internet. On a
more serious note, I have seen this arena expand from the UK in particular! Those folks have a love of the "Eye-In-The-Sky"
type thing, it seems....
Mr Science November 19th, 2007, 07:28 PM

Responding to NBK's post, I emailed the company asking for a quote, and got the following:
Good Day Mr *****,
Thank you for your Microdrone inquiry. Microdrone was initially developed for military, police and commercial activities. Its
reliability, ease of flight and superior electronics sets it apart from remote control models or toys that may have some
modifications to support basic video or photography.
A reference price for a Microdrone outfitted for basic photography is approximately $28,000 Canadian (excluding delivery,
taxes/fees, additional options or training). The Microdrone basic photography kit contains:
md4-200 microdrone ready to fly kit

GPS position hold
video transmitter and mobile video receiver/goggles
10mp still photography camera (with video downlink)
Pelican carrying caseMaybe it is just me, but I cannot understand why it costs so much. Or at least considering their profit as
well, what is the bulk of the cost of the device (which component(s) are priciest).
Edit: 28,000.00 CAD = 28,520.50 USD
Kaydon November 20th, 2007, 01:55 AM

There's nothing in that list that would even come close to $28,000. It must be a typo. It'd better be, or they are insane.
What's 28k in USD? Can't be less than 20. Either way, that's still outrageous.
I suspect the video transmitter would be the most expensive piece of equipment, maybe there are modifications to the motor
to carry the load? Things are so lightweight though, there can't be much need for a lot of modification, stronger gears.
You can get a 10 MP camera for a few hundred bucks, cheaper if you look around - or buy second hand. If you look at the
picture, the camera looks like something you'd likely pick up at your local Staples or some such, and it probably is and
painted black.
Carrying case? Pft, you can make that yourself.
20 Minutes of flight time doesn't seem like all that much, but for quick glances at situations or whatever your goal it's probably
plenty.
If only we could get our hands on a Predator UAV :)
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/imgs_uav/predator.jpg
monkeyboy December 6th, 2007, 07:06 PM
For the electronically inclined, a remote controlled camera from a cell phone:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-remote-controlled-camera-from-a-cellphone!/?ALLSTEPS
monkeyboy June 13th, 2008, 10:18 PM

Yeah, I know I was the last one to post here 6 months ago. The technology just keeps getting better, though.
Any of you seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V2CBGnU6qU
DelFly II weights ready to fly, with onboard camera, 16.07g. The camera is not only used for observation purposes, but also as
input for the image analysis software. The images are transmitted to the ground station. The ground station determines the
rotational velocity of the DelFly II based upon the images, compares it with the input of the pilot, and sends the steering
signals back to the DelFly II, which deflects it's rudder and elevator according the received inputs. This enables an
inexperienced pilot to fly the DelFly II.
http://www.delfly.nl/index.php?site=DII&menu=home&lang=en

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Workshop Blast Screen
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View Full Version : Workshop Blast Screen
Arkangel June 11th, 2002, 07:25 PM

I've always been nervous of the fact that working on a bench with any kind of energetic materials, your hands, and therefore workpiece are in the regions of your soft
underbelly.
Yep, I have a leather apron and gauntlets, goggles, respirator etc. but your viscera are just to precious and fragile to risk being filled with glass and acid. I'm therefore
considering building a portable blast shield on/behind which I can work in somewhat increased safety. I have in mind 6mm steel, sharply angled away from you, and welded to
a baseplate. If you had the time to cut it, you could make it like the breakwater on the bow of a warship. That way any blast would be directed sideways away from you. I'd
also be tempted to pad the side closest to me, so that any explosion would not drive it too painfully into me.
I also have a bulletproof vest that I plan to modify a la the LA Bank Robbers, to cover my arms, upper chest, and neck.
Am I over the top here, or does anyone have a similar rig? Suggestions would be welcome. :)
kingspaz June 11th, 2002, 07:53 PM

well if your main primaries are peroxides then i don't think your precautions are too over the top. they are slightly, but better over than under.
have you considered polycarbonate sheet as a blast shield?.....its clear too so you can see through it so it wouldn't hinder your work. if you were using safer primaries or atleast
predictable ones then you probably wouldn't need all that. if its predictable then you will allways know what to expect and it won't explode for no apparent reason which is
allways a threat with peroxides although reduced significantly if they are washed thoroughly.
megalomania June 12th, 2002, 03:15 AM

I have a big polycarbonate shield that I found in a hallway. I think they were throwing it away! A simple, and recommended, safety precaution is to use a metal screen
wrapped into a cylinder around the reaction flask, and then use another clear cylinder after that. The metal screen (use fine mesh) is cheap and see-through. It stops many
fragments of glass, and slows down the rest. If it gets damaged, just roll another. The plastic cylinder is of course clear and far less likely to be damaged.
mr.evil June 12th, 2002, 05:17 AM

TVS17 had got an Glovebox, ask him what kind of materials are used in that thing :)
xoo1246 June 12th, 2002, 02:14 PM

I was planning on building a box where I can dream about pressing HTMD into caps(preferably somewhat remotely). Not that hard to construct one, I guess some of you
allready have had dreams about this. What I wanted to know was how you did build yours. I was planing to use wood and a shield of clay blocks. The clay, in plastic
bags(moms a ceramic artist), would greatly reduce the speed of the wooden fragments if anything went bad. What do you think?
DBSP June 12th, 2002, 03:03 PM

I have a small box that I've used when pressing smaller caps. I don't know how effective it is but together with a face shield it would probably withstand a detonation quite
well. The plexi slowes/stops the shrapnell and then the face shield stops the remaining pieces.
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/DBSPs_blastshield1.JPG" target="_blank">blastshield</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/DBSPs_blastshield2.JPG" target="_blank">blastshield</a>
xoo1246 June 12th, 2002, 04:18 PM

Nice construction, you use heavy gloves and no contact with cap when pressing?
Fallout85 June 12th, 2002, 04:49 PM

I have a 3' by 3' sheet of lexan in my garage left over from one of my previous projects. It's about 1/8" thick or a little less. Think it would be thick enough for constructing a
small handheld blast shield for small amounts of primaries (2g or less) or should I even bother?

It'll definitely be better than nothing, or a considerably greater thickness of a more brittle plastic like plexiglass/acyrlic.
Zyklon_B June 13th, 2002, 01:43 AM

Has any of you thought about putting plexiglass in such a way to diflect some of the debris in different directions instead of using a flat window? Maybe by placing it in a V
shape it will send some of the small shrapnel to the sides instead of one flat sheet absorbing the complete shock :cool: .
Fallout85 June 13th, 2002, 02:05 AM

That's what arkangel was talking about. And with something like plexiglass you'd have a weak point where you joined the pieces together. If you had metal you could weld
two pieces or bend a sheet to the v-shape and it might work a bit better than plexi. But of course you wouldn't be able to see what you were doing. A viewing slot of some
sort could be cut out and you could put a piece of something such as lexan put over it. It would certainly be cheaper than an all lexan shield. Lexan is pretty expensive here.
edit-slight typing error
[ June 13, 2002, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Fallout85 ]

Fallout85, thats a good idea, using a steel V shaped sheild with a small slot in it for a lexan window. You could use some nuts and bolts to hold it in and it would make it easier
to change. I personaly would go for half an inch steel and I would put a non-flamable grease on it to aid the shrapnel on its way away from your face, something like vaseline.
You could also buy a cheap bullet proof vest off ebay and use it as a secondary layer just incase the metal is somehow penetrated so the Kevlar will stop it.
[ June 13, 2002, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: Zyklon_B ]

Do you think the addition of grease would really help? I think a flak jacket would suffice as long as you worked with small amounts. They're alot cheaper to. I was planning on
getting one soon. Really, I'm more worried about my hands and face more than my torso. I've got the face protection pretty well covered (welding mask with visor up and
super thick safety glasses) but I haven't really seen anything around here in the way of hand protection. Would the gauntlets be used for welding or something? I really have
no idea where to look for them. If anyone has any idea as to how to obtain/to improvise a pair, I would be much obliged.
[ June 13, 2002, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Fallout85 ]
Zyklon_B June 13th, 2002, 02:52 PM

The grease wouldnt be necessary, its just something I picked off what the did during the civil war on the first ever metal ships to diflect cannon balls. Just plain steel will do.
For your hands you can get thick leather gloves and another pair or kevlar gloves to wear underneath.

I thick 1/2" steel is a bit OTT for working with blasting caps. It's be difficult to work (bend) and be awkwardly heavy. Can you imagine lifting it onto and off your workbench
with it all greased up? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
All this body armour, kevlar etc sounds rather expensive and a bit over complicated for a task like pressing caps.
IMO the best thing you can put between you and a device that might explode is distance, so use a press with a handle a few feet long. Then place a sandbag or a few
millimetres of steel or Al between the work piece and you, even 1/4" of PLY would probably stop all shrapnel from a Al BC tube if it was at least 6" from the blast (too close
and it takes the force of the blast rather than just the schrapnel).

Safety first! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Fallout, the best gloves (but these will be expensive) can be found at abbotoirs, or any meat preparation factory. They have chainmail gloves, and sleeves (usually on the
non-knife hand, but they cater for left handed people too) to protect against the inevitable slip of a knife. Put some leather gloves under these and you'd be sorted.
Energy84 June 14th, 2002, 04:46 PM

Of course! Chain mail would be very good protection. My dad has a big (8' by 10') sheet of stainless steel chainmail :) Looks like I'm gonna have to start designing some new
clothes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I think that for a pair of chain mail gloves from a butcher would only cost no more than $10. At least that's what it costs here where I live.
Also, if you're very paranoid, you could use your half inch steel barrier but instead of trying to put a hole in it for a viewing slot, why not use mirrors? It would put you out of
direct contact with whatever you're working with, but at the same time, it could also be more dangerous because it might take a while to get the hang of working backwards
(with reflections).

Why does your dad have a huge piece of chainmail? (If it's not a personal question) :)

He works at a french fry factory and they have a few hundred yards of the stuff to move the fries through the friers. It's really something to see.
They did some repairs on the conveyors though so he managed to score a nice chunk of it :)
He told me that it's worth something like $2000/ft <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
[ June 14, 2002, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Energy84 ]
J June 15th, 2002, 03:43 PM

$10 for a chainmail glove? I think you'll be in for a shock; I've seen them at 90 each.
What's the verdict on kevlar gloves? I can get these for between 5 and 10 per pair. Will they provide protection against shrapnel, or are they just better than nothing?
A blast screen is something I intend to build before my next course of experiments this summer, moving up from wrapping the cap in a pair of jeans while charging <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
I'm thinking of building it out of mostly thick (3/4 inch) chipboard, with a viewing hole made out of several layers of 1.5mm Polycarbonate sheet. DBSP's box looks great, I
think mine will be similar only smaller.

Well, meatcutting must not be a very big business out there. I've seen chainmail gloves for $10. And they weren't cheap either. The rings were about 4mm round, nice and
small.
As for the big sheet my dad has, I went to take a look at it today, and it's "woven" in a weird sort of pattern that allows it to flex no problem one way, but has limited flex in
the other. Plus, it's really heavy shit! Our 8'x10' piece probably weighs in at over 300lbs.

The thing that worries me about a box like DBSP's is that it's enclosing to a degree. Magazines and factories have to have solid walls and light wood roofs so that any blast can
escape in at least one direction. I like the idea of thick lexan or armoured glass to observe the work, but my construction is going to be completely open at the back side.
Another feature worth considering is something you will find on a grenade range, especially if you make a metal blast shield. Every surface facing the blast has a wood sheet
covering. Basically that's to stop any shrapnel ricochets, since on inspection it seemed that the metel penetrated well into the wood, but didn't have the energy to rebound out.
[ June 17, 2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Ghilli suit
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View Full Version : Ghilli suit
Fallout85 June 13th, 2002, 08:23 PM

For a long time now I've wanted to contruct a ghilli suit. Why you ask? Paintball, hunting, something to do, sneaking about/scaring the shit out of people, looks cool. Well
anyway, a buddy of mine and I just bought materials to make ghilli suits and we will begin making them soon. I just wanted to know if anyone else in the forum has made
one before and if they have any tips? Pics would be nice too. When mine is done I'll post my pics if anyone wants. I used the following site for my instructions: <a href="http:/
/www.paintballgods.com/chapter3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.paintballgods.com/chapter3.htm</a> - it looks pretty good but I doubt that it will take that long to
contruct (of course I have a sewing machine) and it wasn't nearly that expensive. Thanks.
Whitey June 14th, 2002, 10:26 PM

Found this on sniper country
<a href="http://www.snipercountry.com/hottips/GhillieMake.htm" target="_blank">http://www.snipercountry.com/hottips/GhillieMake.htm</a>
Be advised Ghillie suits can be a fire hazard. A ghillie suit is basically like a pile of rags so they catch fire easily. I recently heard of someone playing paintball with one on. He
and his friends were using fireworks to add to the excitement. One went off near him and his suit caught fire and he was killed.

Good point. I hadn't really considered that. I was planning on using flash bangs (more flash than bang) or trip flares around the perimeter of the base to liven it up a bit.
Setting aside a bucket of water and a fire extinguisher wouldn't be a bad idea now that I think about it :) .
0EZ0 June 15th, 2002, 06:36 AM

There is a fire-proofing spray (and also a water-proofing spray which can be purchased for Ghilli suits. Check some of the links on the "How to build a ghilli suit" page.
nbk2000 June 15th, 2002, 07:28 AM

Simply soak your suit in a saturated solution of borax. That'll make it fireproof. Just don't get it soaking wet or it'll wash out the protection.
Using natural fibers like cotton and wool will prevent a spark from turning into a fire since these fibers char instead of burn.
And, naturally, a ghillie suit doesn't do you any good if you haven't practiced with it and can stay either perfectly still for long periods of time, or move without making a noise.
Either thing, noise or movement, negates the suits protection.
AmonDin July 19th, 2002, 03:07 AM

Also take into account your sorroundings and the people you play with. A ghillie suit isn't going to do much good in an urban or sandy environment, likewise if everybody you
play with knows the territory as well or better than you. If everybody knows that pile of leaves isn't supposed to be there, it won't be very good for cover.
vulture July 30th, 2002, 02:21 AM

When hiding in the woods, be sure to rub the ghillie suit into animal excretions. Otherwise you risk an animal betraying you by suddingly sniffing somewhere and then running
in panic. Don't laugh, it's a basic sniper trick...
SATANIC July 30th, 2002, 08:21 PM

well, i have naerly finished mine...
i am going to get pictures as soon as it's finished, and i get my website running well.... which should be soon. I am just waiting on borrowing a digital camera, and a glue gun,
which i'll buy one of if he doesn't hurry up with it.
mine was constructed using DPCU's (auscam) which has 'built in' thermal / infra red blocking, to make it harder for the enemy to pick you up. so far i've done the shirt and a
bit of the hood, using just strips of other auscam gear... and with the glue gun i'm adding scrim net strips, which is like personal cam net....
overall the effect should be good, without the hassle of using string / hessian... which falls apart really easily, and leaves bits everywhere.
i can't say i will poking animal shit into the fabric..... it would just make it difficult to breathe etc.... i can't say i would want it stinking if i was going to use it a lot.. besides, I
reckon there are lots of animals that go to smell other animal shit anyway, you'd end up attracting animals...
link September 8th, 2002, 07:54 AM

Yep in Aus you cant go past DPCUs for your Killing suit if you visit a reserve base or full time unit and ask to speak to someone in the
Q-store you might be able to pick up a bunch of shredded cams and Green net for a carton of beer, as long as yoou explain its for hunting they will be more than happy to
throw you some, After they shred old cams they discard anyway, Ive never heard anyone burning to death in their ghillie suit and dpcus are quite flammable but ive had all
sorts of stuff over several of mine in the past and they have never gone up.
one thing to keep in mind though is make it 3 peice legs shirt and headpeice, "why you ask?" well take into consideration the increased temprature factor. you will chew
through the water so it makes sense to reduce some cam as a tradeoff for hydration then when your in your position observing your killing ground apply all your cam.
NOTE :- take into consideration all aspects of camoflage
1. SHAPE 2.SHADOW 3.SHINE 4. SILLOUTE 5.COLOUR 6.MOVEMENT
if any of these aspect are overlooked your camouflage weakens
also i have sat next to animals for hours on end without them smelling me and fleeing it is sudden movement that will startle an animal, after a month in the field do you think
a sniper is rolling in animal shit, NOPE trust me after a month in the field you smell bad enough already just trust your cam and you will be fine, i hope that helps.

I think it does Link, although you missed out surface (I think that might be the same as colour) and straight lines. Don't have my basic battle skills book to hand, so can't check
if it was 6 or 7 S's, plus the M <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
link September 15th, 2002, 02:48 PM

yep your right there ol 6s and an m although straight lines come under shape and surface is almost the same as colour minus the texture
Much of the modern day sniper techniques are derived from the tradition of the Scots "ghillie" (professional deer stalker), hence today's standard sniper accessory the "ghillie
suit".
The old ghillie's maxim...

"Stalk as close as ye kin, laddie - then git ten paces closer!"
SATANIC September 16th, 2002, 05:09 AM

The pam (MLW - Infantry training, Field craft and target detection) (MLW = Manual of Land Warfare) states:
1. Shape,
2. Shadow, (cast and contained shadow)
3. Sillouette,
4. Surface,
5. Spacing, and
6. Movement.
If I get time I'll scan that section of the manual. It comes with demonstations in pictures. Unfortunately i can't scan the whole thing, but I have a fair few aussie manuals if
anyone's after anything in particular........ I'll get started on the demolitions one first... It fits in here a bit more.
Link and arkangel, you've had time in the forces in aussie by the sound of it? drop me an email if you have time. I'm after some pieces of that battle skills hand book, if it's the
one I'm thinking of.
and as for DPCU's, they're always lying around the bases in bins at vehicle parks and things, used for rags. they're often pretty faded, but they do well.
I'm still trying to get hold of a digital camera to get pics of my suit. It's not the best, but fair enough for a first effort.
spike669 February 23rd, 2004, 11:08 PM

i have search around for info about ghillie suit and this is the best site i could find
http://www.geocities.com/stalker217/ghillie/
ossassin February 24th, 2004, 12:03 AM

By the way, the site that Site669 posted is considered one of the best in existence today. I'd definately recommend it.
Ropik May 11th, 2004, 07:46 AM

Well, I have one of these, natural fibers and strings dyed and knotted on masking net. You should also consider if you want the most effective suit if you pay for it with ability
to move swiftly. I personally went for worse masking but better movability.
And do not forget to cover your head shape real good - itis one of most recognizable shapes of human body.

I'm reading that site. I sure wish I had found it before I made my one.
Mine looks shite compared to those ones, and the netting idea is great, that would have saved so much time!!!
Anyways, having read a few bits, I can see that mine can (perhaps) be saved. Mine's just a jacket, mind, so it will never be as effective as a full suit. And I will need to get
creative with the spray paints, too.
I must confess, however, that I tend to just use a set of realtree that I got cheap. You can just stand still and you disappear!
TheBicher May 11th, 2004, 08:58 PM

What is this thermal image blocking material? Mylar? Surely it must make for a damn hot suit! I was also thinking about making one, I just have to figure out where to get the
time/materials. I remember seeing a ghilli suit for sale that folded up into a sort of fanny pack. It took something like a minute to fold it all up. It only offered sufficient
camoflauge while squatting, but I think this sort of idea is promising. The idea could be improved upon by including legs, too. I don't think a suit like this whould be THAT much
harder to make once it is properly planned out.
megalomania May 12th, 2004, 01:25 AM

Hey, I like that site, very informational. That is just the kind of informational spirit I like here. Would somebody mind contacting the guy and asking him if he would consent to
Roguesci.org hosting his website?
Corona May 19th, 2004, 06:27 AM

I've ripped the website and made a PDF of it and am sending it upstairs right now. I thought it a good idea since he knows what he's doing.... but his website can't handle too
much traffic. Might as well have an extra copy someplace.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Jimmy to defeat electromagnetic door locks
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View Full Version : Jimmy to defeat electromagnetic door locks
nbk2000 June 16th, 2002, 01:35 PM

I've been hanging out with a fellow who works at another gas station when I'm not working to keep the same hours. This guy's cool since he lets me basically take anything I
want from the store for free. I've gotten disposable cameras, bags of beef jerky, etc worth $30 a night for just shooting the shit with him while he's bored out of his mind alone
all night at the store.
Anyways, the store he works at has electromagnetic locks on the doors to keep them locked while the clerk is occupied cleaning the store at night so robbers can't ambush him
while he's out from behind the bulletproof glass. These locks have around a 1,500 pound hold strength so it's impossible to force them open manually.
But you can open them from inside easily without the clerk having to buzz you out because there's a circuit that detects when a person touchs the exit bar that de-energizes
the electromagnet. This is a simple touch sensitive circuit that detects a change in capacitance when a conductive body (like yours) drains it.
It won't work if you touch it with gloves since they'd insulate you from the circuit. But touch it with a bare metal object... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif"
/>
So, with the co-operation of my associate for testing, I figured out how to open these locks from the outside. :)
I took a flat piece of steel about 2 feet long and 3/8" wide and bent it with a curve on the end in a half-circle 4" in diameter.
Now, by simply slipping the curved part through the gap in the doors, I can touch the bar on the inside with this conductive metal and fool the lock into thinking I'm inside and
unlocking. :D Takes all of 3 seconds to insert this jimmy and unlock the doors.
Pictures to come next week when he next works on my day off.
Anyways, it's something to keep in mind for raiding a store while the clerk is on the shitter or otherwise occupied. Empty the register, snatch cases of cigarettes, snag the
money order machine, all without any confrontation or witnesses.
Sorry if this turned into a crime topic, but that's basically all I think about nowadays, what with the PDF and all.
mongo blongo June 16th, 2002, 03:32 PM

No evidence of forced entry either. :)

HAHAHA i like this NBK, GOOD JOB... NO Wait GREAT JOB @!
drstrangelove June 17th, 2002, 07:48 PM

We have those credit card shaped computer keys over here on most high rise buildings and government buildings and other tastey places, I was at a website called
"hackertronics" and they claim to sell hackers for these locks.

drstrangelove you stil on its 9:15est ... whats that url ? <--- DUH... Didn't fully read it
Any/drstrangelove/nbk, do you have urls for this type of topic, such as b&e.... thanks
[ June 17, 2002, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: AfterRain ]
xhale June 17th, 2002, 10:19 PM

<a href="http://www.hackertronics.com" target="_blank">www.hackertronics.com</a> Makes sense :)
AfterRain June 19th, 2002, 12:46 AM

NBK : Can i copy what you said and put in on my webpage, but it will have your name on it for credit, i dont want credit , i just want the info on my page, iight is it cool, yea
or no? thanks
Useless posts...?!? Some people dont like there texts gettin' passed with out knowledge
and as for the gift of email, it also help to have the other persons email, in which i did try to obtain NBK's email address but to which i tryed i got <a href="http://
www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00000010" target="_blank">nbks profile e-mail</a> but what ya know it was not there... so uhm..
im not tryin' to start a flame war but blow me

afterain stop making shit useless posts and you were given the gift of email for a reason.
nbk2000 June 20th, 2002, 12:24 PM

Spread the knowledge. That's what the Forum is all about.
As for Hackertronics, they're overpriced (majorly!) but they do serve the purpose of letting you know what's out there (for less) if you look hard enough.
PYRO500 June 20th, 2002, 06:39 PM

I have reason to doubt that Hackertronics is an over glorified information unlimited type site, some of the stuff like the ATM REPEATER DEVICE witch claims to "hack" all atm's
witch is bs along with their card slot hacking devices the locks on hotel doors are designed to have a lockout period that won't allow input for a second or two, this may seem
insignifigant but a few seconds counting in binary is a very long time to sweep the codes. a better way is to find the ones with the external exposed recharging jack (bottom of
the lock) and short them out to drain the battery with a plug that fits in the jack hole witch will short the battery and will open with the default reset card see this article (http:/
/www.parallaxresearch.com/dataclips/pub/physical_security/locks/Hotel%20Locks) they also have cards that are programmable like the magnetic ones and if you have one
programmed type you can simply program a master card witch in most older ones is universal but now they are programmed by a computer that has to be told what the dip
switch settings inside the lock are set to. although it would be easyer to unscrew the lock from the front beacuse most of the ones I've seen have ordinary phillips screws
holding the cover on the battery compartment and once in there you can simply hook up a battery and alligator clips to the solenoid leads to open the door or you could just
take the lock off the door. this is assuming you have a large hotel with no one walking around.
drstrangelove June 20th, 2002, 07:52 PM

I wonder if anyone has the down low on the rolling security codes on auto alarms.
I cannot find away to defeat these no matter how I try but I know thats its possible as criminals are running amok in my town with funky ass autos ripping off everything in
sight and the cops cant catch em.
I heard the cop on tv saying that they wait for 2 hours untill the immobilizer times out and the security light goes out then just plug as usual.
I tryed this no joy.
I looked in the car repair manual for that model and it basicly said the "body control module" or bcm recieves coded messages from a transponder in the key or ignition barrel
witch prevents theft.
The crims on the news were just kids 16 17 yrs old the point is these kids look like dumb fucks armed with nothing more that a screwdriver but they are still grabbing top of
the range cars.
Sorry for going off topic but I didnt want to start I new post for a crime topic as some folks around here dont like the criminal mind.
nbk2000 June 21st, 2002, 08:52 AM

Earlier tonight the night clerk of the filthy dog competitor store :p down the road locked himself out! The electromagnetic lock was to blame. So anyways, he was outside for
about an hour before he turned off the power for the store to unlock the doors.
Now, this tells me a couple of things. One, that the locks don't have a battery backup. Two, that the power boxes in back are unlocked and subject to tampering.
The latter I already knew about from scouting it out, but I'd have thought they'd have a battery backup for the electrolocks. Obviously not. <img border="0" title=""
As for the cars, the kids are punks working for a more organized organization that supplies the equipment. The punks are just pawns that are disposable if caught.
probity June 22nd, 2002, 01:00 AM

The rolling code algorithms are just for the car alarm and the transmitter, so that the signal couldn't be snagged out of the air while the "victim" is using his/her transmitter to
unlock their door.
nbk2000 June 23rd, 2002, 10:09 AM

I promised pictures and here they are.
This shows what an electromagnetic lock looks like. Basically a flat steel plate attached to the door with the electromagnet attached to the frame. These have a pull force of
several thousand pounds, thus impossible to manually pull open.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Electromagnetic_Lock.jpg" alt=" - " />
Here's the jimmy being inserted into the gap between doors.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Jimmy1.jpg" alt=" - " />
Here we see how the jimmy curves around to touch the door handle, thus fooling the lock into releasing.
The end must touch the bare metal of the bar in order to conduct. You have to be holding the jimmy with a bare hand too, because it won't work if you're wearing gloves.
drstrangelove June 23rd, 2002, 06:21 PM

Great pictures.
Many of the high class gold and diamond shops over here have those type of locks on the doors.
Very interesting.
I wish I had a friendly store owner to test little tricks like that out.

NBK,
such electromagnets as the ones you are looking at have a rated 'pull' when the pull is in a direction perfectly perpendicular to the norm... ie when you are pulling striaght
away from the magnet... not at even a slight angle.... case in point.. if you have any very large magnets, try and seperate them by pulling straight apart.. it cant be done..
but if you slide one magnet over the edge of the other just a tiny bit, and apply force to one edge, ie seperating the magnets at a slight angle, things become much easier.... i
wounder what the several thousand pound pull rating really is.... if you ahve a good buddy at this gas station, why not try this.... insert a pry bar between the doors near
where the magnet is (down lower the door frame will flex too much) push with all you got.... you may be able to brute force the magnet open (would be nice for mag doors
that dont have such a handy exit sensing device)... The reason why I suggest this is a place i used to work for had mag lock doors that only opened when you pushed a button
on the wall... the mag locks were increadably strong... even though the door handels on the outside were big enough for 3 guys to pull at the same time, it couldnt be brute
forced... However we found out that by taking a running start at the door (it opened out obviously) from the inside, they poped with a fair bit of ease....
nbk2000 June 24th, 2002, 12:29 PM

The fact that the plate is mounted on a fixed pivot (the door) means there is no way to "slide" it off the magnet. And, yes, the locks are actually pulling a ton+ since it's in
perfect contact with a thick iron plate.
I suppose if you could get a long enough pry bar into the gap, and the opposite door was strong enough to act as a pivot, you might be able to create enough force to pry the
plate off the lock.
Now, if you didn't have a way to jimmy it like shown, you could try to short out the lock with a conductive fluid since it is electrically powered. I wonder if they're water proof?
Could an even more powerful electromagnet negate the pull of the first one?
Or simply break the glass. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Nico July 9th, 2002, 02:33 AM

Damn, this is fun to read. :D Posts like this are what make me eagerly anticipate the re-opening of Lockdown - I'm happy to pay a monthly fee for such unbridled discussion.
I used to work night shift at a gas station ... I wish I'd seen this post then, it would've been good to try. Come to think of it, the graveyard-shifters always seem to be
deabeats (not knocking graveyard folks, just the ones at this particular station) - I could probably get them to try it just for the hell of it.
On a side note, we had an automatic buzzer for the bathroom doors ... I took the switch plate off because I was tired of buzzing people in and wanted to rig it open. Anyway, I
touched a wire to the wrong place and the whole thing shorted out. The bathrooms couldn't be opened at all then. Oops. :)
maurice pyro July 11th, 2002, 07:09 PM

Let's see: First post. Existing topic? Check. Lamer question? Nope, Check. Additional useful info? I think so.
NBK, to improve on the electronic "jimmy", I suggest you bend it up out of approx 10-12 Ga. copper wire. Bend it into a "U" with a long
leg (the end you hold) and a short leg to insert in the gap between the doors. Make the bend wide enough to reach from the gap to the actual sensor bar/plate on the inside.
Rationale: It's conductive, being 10-12 Ga. allows you to insert it into a narrower gap and if you need to leave in a hurry, you just yank it out, straightening the bend and
you're gone. Wad it up and toss it, and it's deniable.
In use, slide it through the gap with the bend vertical, rotate 90
degrees to touch the bar and voila!
Hope this wasn't too long of a post for a complete novice, be kind.
Jackal1412 March 9th, 2008, 09:59 AM

My college has doors similar to these doors. They are magnetic doors with a sizable amount of force to keep them closed, but they are not released with the aid of a button or
by touching the handle. This door has a small camera-like sensor just above the door to notify it of people coming near it, and thus unlocks the door. But that only works for
people exiting the building. For people entering the building, we must swipe our RF card. Seeing as I am rather scatter brained, I forget my card a lot, and to top that off, the
school food service killed my card (broke it and now the RF chip doesn't work), so it doesn't matter if I do remember it. Anyways, to the beneficial part of information in this
post.
You can have a yardstick or flexible piece of metal, as described above, and attach some paper to it, slip it through the door and wave it in from of the camera. The camera
will think that someone is walking towards the door and thus unlock, enabling you to open it from the outside.
timo March 26th, 2008, 10:56 PM

Being a newbie and seeing all the slams you give on idiots that posted, I thought I had you when I saw this thread. I remembered a pdf I had on this.
I figured you had stole the idea. The thing is, the date on the pdf is June 24, 2002. I see this thread was a day before this June 23, 2002.
When you've got your shit together, I guess it's OK to be a hardass.
Fucking joke's on me, right?
Jacks Complete March 30th, 2008, 09:01 AM

In response, belated, to Jackal, it's a PIR.
timo, what are you on about?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > sm all HV cap
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DoH BoY August 22nd, 2001, 03:19 PM

I h a v e a s m all 30kv 0.003uf capacitor that is 2"long and 1"in diam eter. I cant think of anything to do with it yet. Do e s a n y o n e
have any ide a s ?
mongo blongo August 22nd, 2001, 04:18 PM

lol T hat's just like saying mm m m m ... i got m e a chicken so what can i do with it?
W hat do YO U think you can do with it? You m u s t h a v e s o m e i d e a o r y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e p o s t e d . M a b e y a b lasting cap? or you
could fix your tv with it?
Jumala August 22nd, 2001, 10:34 PM

This kind of capacitor is only good for one thing.
Connect it to the output of a stun gun.
Y o u m u s t m ake sure that the device doesnt have a higher output voltage than 30 KV.
Than you will have a extrem powerful device.

Normal stun guns have only 1 m A output current. The new device can give short im p u l s e s o f s e v e r a l a m p e r e s .
Very dangerous.
DoH BoY August 23rd, 2001, 01:20 AM

W ell than i guess ill be building a stun gun in the near future.
Microtek August 24th, 2001, 11:10 AM

In the "Links" topic there is a link to the final p a p e r s f r o m d e t o n a t i o n s y m p o s i u m 98.
One of the papers are about electrical ignition of an am monium perchlorate rocket propellant. They use 28KV discharges
delivering on the order of 1 m illijoule of energy. Maybe there is the potential of a prim ary-less detonator.
J S e p t e m b e r 2 nd, 2001, 11:16 AM

J u m a l a , a n o r m a l s t u n g u n d o e s g i v e a s h o r t p u l s e o f s e v e r a l a m ps. A cap is charged up to between 300 and 2000v depend ing
on design, and discharged into a transformer.
I'll hopefully have full construction details of my home-m ade 70kV stun gun up soon, which puts out between 2J and 3J per
second. I've alm ost finished writing the web-page, and I've take n quite a few photo's (and a couple of vide o's) to aid
construction.
Doh Boy, your cap will put out around 1.3J max , which is great if you can charge it up several tim e s a s e c o n d . Y o u ' l l h a v e t o
decouple it from the victim whilst it's charging, if it's in contact with the victim s skin it won't charge up beyond a certain level
( p e r h a p s a h undred volts or so) before discharging. That's the m a i n w e a k n e s s o f t h e d e s i g n o n m y w e b s i t e a t t h e m o m e n t .
------------------
Download the forum archive from my yahoo briefcase (http://uk.y42.briefcase.yahoo.com /bc/thejuiceuk/lst?.dir=/
&.src=bc&.view=l)
P G P k e y a v a i l a b l e h e r e ( h t t p : / / p g p k e y s . m it.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)
Anthony September 2 nd, 2001, 07:58 PM

To avoid the cap discharging prematurely, add a spark gap that will break down when the cap reaches full charge.
Jumala September 2 nd, 2001, 10:31 PM

Hallo J,
I m ean the devices wich can b e bought free in every weapon shop. This things are designed to give not m ore current than
a p p r o x . 1 m A. (the reason because theyre available without licence) They dont have a transform er only a cascade.
H o m emade devices, with transform er, can be m uch stro nger. I have a plan with a TV HV transformer (20-25KV, m o r e t h a n
enough voltage)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Remote detonations
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xoo1246 May 12th, 2002, 12:11 PM

Remove
Ctrl_C May 12th, 2002, 12:29 PM

<a href="http://www .roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000889" target="_blank">http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?
ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000889</a>
Tyler_Durden May 12th, 2002, 12:29 PM

There have been threads on this. There has also been extensive discussion of the use of a cell phone for detonation.
If you didn't search, do so. If you did, and didn't find it, try some more.
edit: i didn't see ctrl_c's post when I posted this... refer to his links for the threads I am referring to.
[ May 12, 2002, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Tyler_Durden ]
xoo1246 May 12th, 2002, 12:34 PM

Remove

I've just tested a cheap cordless phone and can get about 200 yards away with rough line of site and get a dial tone. It's about 150 yards with the base unit inside the house.
The page handset feature could be used for electrical initiation, but I'd rather have the base unit near the charge and carry the handset as the remote control.
I figured w hen you press the button on the handset to get a dialtone, this could be used to set off the charge. I figured that the base unit would either put a voltage accross a
couple of the line line pins, or short them creating a circuit. If it shorts a pair then you could just connected a relay trigger to the pair, w hich switches on the circuit for your
ignitor/blasting cap.
A quick play w ith a multi-meter and the phone though and I can't find continuity between any of the pins on the phone plug with the handset off, or when it's trying to get a
dialtone. I must be doing something w rong...

A beeper w ould be good, replace the speaker with an "estees modle rocket igniter" and then have that in a small ball of BP, that should be enough to set off most things. then
just put the exploseive around the ball of black powder, and away you go. but be sure to duct-tape it in place, and that the wires arent connecting on the ignighter. MAYBE you
could coat the part before the small ammount of black powder with some candle wax.
Ctrl_C May 12th, 2002, 04:34 PM

not enough voltage or current. you would need a relay and another power source (more powerful battery). refer to the second link.

Yeah, I just thought of that, make it complete a switch to a nine volt.
xoo1246 May 13th, 2002, 12:02 PM

Remove

MMMM, i w as thinking more like a small motor connected to a nine volt and shit so it would complete a switch. :)
Omogen June 13th, 2002, 07:35 PM

yes if you have a beeper and an old cellphone dont worry about the volt...just connect the speakerwires to a relay and a 9 volt battery and when it rings it closes the circle and
bang...not so hard
will try it with a kitchen timer.
PYRO500 June 13th, 2002, 08:10 PM

The only problem is that the relay may not energise at such a low voltage, you should go for a solid state sw itching method such as a transistor, or even better an SCR witch
will conduct across it's anode and cathode untll the passing currnet is gone ensuring reliable switching.
xoo1246 June 14th, 2002, 11:19 AM

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Moto Kaken June 16th, 2002, 08:56 PM

The model with vibrator will w ork finely, but if your beeper have no vibrator, use this circuit.
<a href="http://www .geocities.com/thecuriosity_jp/foralarm.jpg" target= "_blank">http://w ww.geocities.com/thecuriosity_jp/foralarm.jpg</a>
Use 2N2222 or larger transistor instead of 2SC1815,and 12V battery for Vcc.
Connect the w ires for piezo-speaker of your beeper to "ALARM", and the electric detonator to "LOAD".
If it didn't work, connect the base of the transistor to "ALARM(+)" directly.
xoo1246 June 17th, 2002, 12:53 PM

Remove
sinstar June 17th, 2002, 01:09 PM

A good book on the subject(if you hav'ent read it already)would be CIA Remote detonation, PDF 1,5MB.
Zambosan June 17th, 2002, 03:08 PM
The circuit posted is good in concept (half-wave rectifier -> low pass filter -> common emitter amplifier) but most igniters require several amps of instantaneous current to
get hot enough to ignite. I've actually tried using 2N2222's before for just this purpose, and couldn't get enough current through it to start an Estes igniter. There is an Icc(max)
for all these devices. Also, even if the voltage is high enough, you wouldn't get enough current out of a piezo driver circuit like that on a cell or pager; piezos are extremely high
impedance (hell, they're pretty close to a pure capacitance). The vibrators are ideal since they are reasonably high current, and are driven w ith a constant signal, not an
oscillating one. So you can ditch the diode & capacitor, although you'll still need a sw itching element that has enough current carrying capacity & high enough gain. I'd actually
recommend a FET or optoisolated-FET; I've had great success with International Rectifiers' PVN012 opto-FET relays... lovely little devices, look 'em up.
Moto Kaken June 18th, 2002, 10:17 AM

you are right, Zambosan.
2SC1815/2N2222 is poor choice for the purpose.
But I have tested the circuit with my timer, and it worked well.
I have very small light bulbs(4.5V/200mA or so). The circuit could drive the filament for short time. Anyhow, the circuit isn't used tw ice. <img border="0" title= "" alt="[Wink]"
src="w ink.gif" />
In Japan, w e can buy prepaid mobile phones without ID(not regular, not cheap).
It is very useful for illegal purposes, but I'll never ignite detonators in Tokyo from Buenos Aires. :D
I have DTMF encorder/decorder chips, FM transmitters, and a cheap(.8$) FM radio. It is not difficult to make low-cost remote detonation systems w ith them....
xoo1246 June 18th, 2002, 02:25 PM

Remove

I've used a Mitel MT8870 DTMF decoder IC in conjunction with a Motorola 68HC11A1 microcontroller to create a multiple-tone land-line remote controller. When active, it would
pick up 15 seconds after the 4th ring, and listen in for a w indow of 30 seconds. This w ould let you install it on a line with an answ ering machine. An 8-digit PIN is (was, I
partially disassembled it quite a w hile ago) required to access the device, after that two-digit, * terminated commands were used; e.g. 10* means energize relay 0, 00* is de-
energize relay 0, 12* is energize relay 2, etc. Worked well, but the only caveat I have about the 8870 is its ability to filter & detect higher DTMF frequency components (toward
the *, or D key if using a 16-button pad) got pretty flaky, especially on a noisy connection. Might have had a lot to do with my circuit construction, though, since I was using a
breadboard. I should have isolated the DTMF decoding onto a dedicated PC board. At any rate, I can certainly offer advice if you run into issues building one of these circuits.
Edit-just w ant to clarify; it will listen for the PIN for 30 seconds. If it detects a valid PIN, it will hold the line open until you either tell it to hang up (# key) or it detects inactivity
for a solid minute.
[ June 18, 2002, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Zambosan ]
xoo1246 June 18th, 2002, 04:08 PM

Remove
DeAd September 2nd, 2002, 04:07 PM

This is realy low tech compared to some of the ideas posted but I made an ir remote initiator system for rocket launches. With repeaters for line of site and range considerations.
Take it one step further and you can recieve information from test site to. I've been looking for a laptop with ir data port seems like that would add a professional look to it all.
xyz September 30th, 2002, 07:22 AM

A low tech way that you could do this that requires little electronics knowledge (but it can only be used for small devices as you don't get much range w ith it) is to get a remote
contol toy car or other remote control toy and replace the motor with a relay or simply an ignitor if the current is high enough. The effective range w ill depend on w hat sort of
toy you use. You probably won't get any better than 50m or so unless you use a remote control aeroplane, in which case you may get a range of 150m or so. I wonder if you
could attach different length aerials to them to change range?
Just a thought
-------------------------
Yeah, a thought straight out of the ACB :mad: -Zaibatsu
[ September 30, 2002, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: zaibatsu ]

also, another vital point w ith remote detonators, is the detonator needs to be small enough that is completly distroyed by the explosive.
the more you leave at the scene the more ways they have to find you.
McGuyver September 30th, 2002, 09:38 PM

In a herbach and rademan I saw a laser pointer operated target game. You just have to hit the bullseye and an alarm sounds. This could easily be modified so that when the
bullseye is hit with the laser it sets off a igniter or something.
xyz September 30th, 2002, 11:26 PM

Sorry about that, I knew I'd seen it somewhere but couldn't remember w here, It should work though (unlike everything else in the crapbook)
[ September 30, 2002, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: xyz ]
Chris Shiherlis October 5th, 2002, 07:38 AM

For remote controlled detonations which need exact timing I w ould recommend a very long wire and a sw itch :) .
For radio controlled detonation you can use all those devices mentioned before: beepers, mobile phones, DTMF transceivers, etc. It's quite easy to attach a relay.
But building a RELIABLE and SAFE RC-system with those devices is complicated. Since there's explosives attached to them you want a device that can ONLY be activated by YOU
at the RIGHT moment and with 100% safety (you know w hat 99% safety in this case means don't you? :) ).
And relays attached to speakers or the vibrating motor of mobile phones and beepers is certainly not 100% safe: someone else calling the wrong number, unwanted SMS
advertisement messages, the phone beeping when it's turned on or batteries are low, etc.
And other drawbacks are: they don't respond immediately, and mobile phones are just disguised tracking devices.
So to make it work you need a lot of circuitry. Just as with the DTMF system (but if you know some about electronics and want to use the DTMF system, go to : < a
href="http://www .boondog.com" target= "_blank">w ww.boondog.com< /a> and click on 'tutorials' and then on DTMF decoder for the schematics).
So XOO for an easy and very reliable RC system just buy a 2 canal RC carsystem with transmitter, receiver and two servo's and a battery pack. Also buy 3 LED's and resistors
(10 Kohm) and 2 microswitches.
Then you glue the microsw itches to the side of the 2 servo's so that they can be closed by the servo at the maximum position by your transmitter.
Then you attach the switches in series with the battery, so when they both are closed the circuitry is closed and your blasting cap is ignited. You use the LED's to see if the
switches are closed or open and one LED for seeing if the receiver is turned on.
This way you get an easy and (almost :) )100% safe RC detonation device: turn on the transmitter and receiver (power check LED will light up) and check if there are any
disturbing radiosignals (which is of course possible because there are a lot of RC cars around!), if so, the servo's will move maybe even closing the switches (and lighting the
LED's). If someone else is playing around just tell him it's better to w ander off :) (he will alw ays be closeby because those transmitters don't have a great range).
You can also switch to another frequency (preferably to a very uncommon exotic one) by using a different crystal.
When it's SAFE you attach your detonator while watching the LED's. And then move away. Then at the right time you close the first switch (LED lights up). The system is
activated now and will respond immediately w hen you close the second switch (another LED lights up). So only when YOU want it, the thing goes BOOM!
Hopefully this is of any use to you.
This system has also the advantage that you can attach detonators that need a lot of current e.g. because Nichrom wire is used, without needing extra batteries.
Of course 100% safety is impossible for any device, but I think you get close with this one (even if there is someone playing around with w ith his car at the same frequency, the
chances both switches are closed is low: they close only if BOTH the joysticks on the transmitter are at the right MAXIMUM position at the SAME time. And with two joysticks you
have 4 positions. Well it's a bit difficult to explain but even then it's reasonably safe but I would recommend using another frequency :) ).
[ October 05, 2002, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]
Fl4PP4W0k October 13th, 2002, 12:39 PM

Meh... Some good ideas.
I dont like the idea of a poor beeper or cellphone being blown to bits though :)
I have a handheld radio. Fun little toy. Modified for a huge transmission range. Something like 108-177 and 400-500 useable.
It also has a built in memory DTMF encoder. You pre-program an upto 12 tone DTMF sequence, and at the touch of a button it is sent to whatever frequencie. Handy.
Also, I used to have a DTMF decoder relay (for answering machines, you placed it next to the speaker and it would activate a 12v relay to turn shit on). About $15 i think. Only
a 4 digit, but hey.
I replaced the mike w ith a 3.5mm lead, that could plug into the earphone of any radio.
You know those dirt cheap FRS peices of junk? Cheap shit. You can plug this decoder into one of those.
Heres a mid priced set... < a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/w s/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1386698633" target= "_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=1386698633</a> so about $15 max each.
I have seen cheaper ones for about $10 each, with no screen and only 2 channels.
The $15 each ones are better, as you can add a 'Security' code, w hich is actually a CTCSS squelch code. Eg: Smaller chance that some lame ass lost kid at a mall will use your
channel.
Sooo... Hook up 4 AA batteries to the relay, and a small rocket igniter to the output. I find the higher amperage of AA's makes igniters more reliable. Or use a 6v lantern battery
and a home made igniter.
Ok. Tune your handheld radio to that frequencie. Key in the CTCSS code and get ready to rumble :D
Press the DTMF preset and BLAMMO! Im sure you can buy a DTMF decoder that w ill let you set off separate relays from different codes.
Distance is only limited to your transmitter. A mobile one (in a car)@ about 25w could easily det. one of those things from 10 or 15 miles.
Overall, its allot cheaper than a cellphone \ pager setup, Simpler to construct, and more convenient IMHO -
Theres no need to worry about accidental detonation either, especially in Australia as those FRS radios arent used here :)
CTCSS code + DTMF is VERY reliable.
Jumala October 16th, 2002, 10:54 PM

Im reading now a book about direkt conversion receivers. This receivers are very simple. Only one BF 961 Dual Gate Mosfet and some other parts. It w orks at 430 MHz without
antenna. A half turn of copperwire is resonant circruit and antenna. Only adjusting the receiver is a problem w ithout HF equipment.
In combination with DTMF it could be a good possibility.
I will build one for testing next days.
Some garage door opener use this receivers too.
Fl4PP4W0k October 17th, 2002, 05:44 AM

You can purchase these little receivers quite cheaply, pre built. About $15AU w hich is roughly $8US.
Im not sure w hat equipment is required to make them USEABLE for remote detonation, but the ones I have seen are purely digital.
Im guessing a garage door opener style digital code w ould be do-able. Just means more hassle than the analog DTMF transmitter \ receiver.
Although, if implemented w ell - this could be a very cheap and effective alternative.
zeocrash October 17th, 2002, 12:53 PM

ok right, the other day i saw a remote control doorbell, so that your doorbell can move around the house and garden with you. i was ondering if you could remove the bell
mechanism and attach it to an ignitor, and use it as an rc (no pun meant) detonator.
i w ould guess it is fairly safe as it has a range of about 100 m, and they have been designed so that they dont go off accidently, otherw ise you would have a phantom doorbell.
any ideas
darkdontay October 17th, 2002, 12:58 PM

Yes, but their is allways things you want to consider before ever trying something like that.. What is the channel and is their traffic on that channel in your area. Is thier any filter
it goes though, I mean is it sensitive to interfernce...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > R adio Frequencies for Passing
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Bignutsami June 18th, 2002, 03:21 AM

W hat radio frequencies pass through walls the best? I thought it was long waves but i just read tha t UHF C B's are better for
indo o r u s e , a s o p p o s e d t o t h e 2 7 m hz band radios. How effective would a 2.5ghz TV transm itter be when transmiting through
walls.
10fingers June 18th, 2002, 04:27 AM

2.5 ghz would not pass through m uch. The higher the frequency the m ore the radio waves have the tenden cy to reflect.
J June 18th, 2002, 05:38 AM

Lower frequencies are better. W hat are you trying to do? The 2.4GHz com m ercial video senders will transm it through a couple
of walls or so in a house.

Unfortunately, the Shannon lim it for useful ban dwidth scales linearly with the frequency, so low frequencies can carry less
information. Real-tim e video is a bandwidth hog, particularly hi-res video , so you're stuck with a frequency & modulation/FEC
scheme capable of carrying the required rate of data. High frequ encies are also m uch m ore directional, so with a focused
a n t e n n a a n d a l i g n e d r e c e i v e r , y o u l o s e a m uch lower percentage of the radiated power due to spre ading (diffraction). And of
course, if you radiate more power, you'll get be tter rang e & penetration.
Jack Ruby June 22nd, 2002, 05:06 PM

At Radio Sha ck they sell Transmitters for Tele signal. I belive these are UHF.
Jumala July 1st, 2002, 11:31 PM

There is no doubt, VLF frequencies are best to pass through solids like water or rock. Subm arines use VLF to contact their
bases while under water operation. The problem is that the antennas are extrem e l o n g . T h e l a n d - s t a t i o n s h a v e t h e i r k m l o n g
antennas buried in th e g r o u n d . F o r e x a m ple Seattle (W7) works at 24,8 KHz with more than 500 KW .
I think for practical use is CB the best because the cheapest.
If you intend to transm it a vid e o s i g n a l you need a big band-width of som e MHz. (no chance for CB)
PYRO500 July 2nd, 2002, 02:37 AM

VLF would ne ver be able to carry a video signal, at such low frequencyes you can carry m uch less data witho ut using several
MHz worth of banwith at huge powers to radiate that energy in fact I rem e m ber hearing about planes that com m unicated with
s u b m erged subs that had to fly in a circle to drag the antenna trailing wire in a loop and could take som e t h i n g l i k e 3 m i n t o
send 1 alpha charachter
Fl4P P4W0k July 2nd, 2002, 07:54 AM

If you want a radio to h a v e g o o d p e n e t r a t i o n , l o o k f o r s o m e t h i n g a r o u n d the UHF m i d b a n d . L i k e 4 0 0 - 6 0 0 o r s o .
In applications that require the use of radios in doors, and thru obstructio ns Eg: Steel hulls of ships, then usually ~4 50MHz a re
used.
I know for sure that many warehouses \ container storage areas use U HF radios, for the fact that VHF (~150MHz) is TERRIBLE
in these conditions.
For your application... I would go with either 450MHz for long range... or 800MHz for shorter ranges. 800MHz has O K
penetration... though not as much as 450. Its used in many cell-phones...and they operate indoors <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> mostly
Oh..is this analog video or digital?

Digital needs way less than the 5MHz or so that analog uses.
I think 1MHz would be more than adequate for low-ish res.
l8r,
rob
Fl4P P4W0k July 2nd, 2002, 08:52 AM

Oh... 3 m inutes to se n d o n e a l p h a n u m eric character :|
Nope.
I would guess that the VLF m ilitary use could handle a data rate of about 150bps or so.
Its mostly used for telem etry based applications, so thats perfectly adequate.
W h a t a b o u t s u b m arine voice \ data ???

Is that broad band VLF?
Zambosan July 2nd, 2002, 03:29 PM

If I'm not m i s t a k e n , s u b s m u s t s u r f a c e o r f l o a t a n a n t e n n a b u o y b e f o r e m aking voice com m unications. It's difficult to do an y
kind of spread-spectrum com m unication at low frequencies because of the low bandwidth of each freq & the large degree of
spre ading & inter-sym bol interference you get from the very dire ctionless LF signals. But then again, the (U S) military m a y
h a v e s o l v e d m any of these problems already; and we won't know about it for ano ther 30 years. :)
PYRO500 July 2nd, 2002, 05:02 PM

m ost subs can float a bouy for som e com m unications but when in enem y territory the last thing yo u want to do is la unch a b ig
bouy that will leap out of the water drawing attention to the subs location.
James July 4th, 200 2, 06:08 PM

Ah, slightly o ff topic, but. I just finished reading 'The hunt for Red O ctober'. I think that the very low bandwidth technology
m entioned earlier is called ELF. '...the ELF radio passed on data slowly about one character every thirty seconds.' It also
m entioned the use of '...new, a laser transmitter. This rotated and locked onto th e carrier wave...without giving away the subs
position'
PYRO500 July 4th, 200 2, 07:24 PM

Yes, ELF, tha t's what I was talkng about. As for 1 charachter every 30 seconds, thats in the best of circum s t a n c e s . Y o u h a v e t o
allow for erro r corection.
<sm all>[ July 04, 2002, 06:42 PM: Me s s a g e e d i t e d b y : P Y R O 5 0 0 ] < / s m all>
Fl4P P4W0k July 9th, 200 2, 12:59 PM

Hrmph... I have been proved wrong <im g border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
T h e e x t r e m e ly long wavelengths would m ean any sort o f data transfer wouldnt ex actly be speedy....
AmonDin July 19th, 20 02, 03:2 2 AM

W hat would you even use it for? A hom e network is easier and cheaper to set up using Ca t 5 standard. Just buy a cheap 10/
100 hub and a few lengths of cable, if you're sm art you'll invest 70 bucks tops.

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Azazel September 5th, 2001, 06:46 AM

i dunno if i been playing to much Counter Strike [gota love that Artic Sniper Magnum http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/
smilies/tongue.gif] or what but i find myself compeled to go out and purchase a large calibre hunting rifle...
I live in Australia so the gun laws down here differ... Magazine sizes for rifles are limited to somewhere near 5 rounds [dont
quote me on that] and they cannot be semi or full automatic, also i would there to be a fair degree of acuracy... any
suggestions on a nice bolt action rifle ?...
What models of rifles have you boys all got in your gun cabinets ?
------------------
Speed Kills. Live Longer. Drive a Honda
:)
Maddoc September 5th, 2001, 01:30 PM

For squirril and rabbit hunting I prefer my .50 BMG, one shot, one kill http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Oh, and asking people what weapons they have in their gun cabinets is NOT an "Improvised Wepon" so I'm moving this to
misc.
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Whoa, where my fingers?
EventHorizon September 5th, 2001, 05:33 PM

How much do you want to spend?
You could go with a McMillian stock, Hart action and barrel, Jewel trigger, and Nightforce scope, but then you have to shell out
over $5000 too. With that setup, with custom chamber and dies, you're looking at a rifle that should do <1/4 MOA and
probably closer to 1/8-0.
Personally, I love my Ruger Varmet/Target .308 with Nightforce 12-42X50mm, 5 shot 3/8" groups at 100yds and ~6" at
500yds (but thats me http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif )
HMTD Factory September 5th, 2001, 05:47 PM

Maddoc, if the rifle is a .50 there will be no squirrel or rabbit left for recoverhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
I believe the AWP/ASM is a Sako-TRG riding on an Accuracy International folding stock, in .338 Lapua Magnum. It's a lot of
money in that combination. Ammo is darn expensive too(It is imported only from Finland).
Usually, a "blueprinted" and "trued-up" Remington 700 action, coupled with a match-grade barrel, pillar bedded on a McMillian
stock, in .300 Winchester Magnum, will be "extremely" accurate and satisfies most need. Good power, nice muzzle blast like a
real AWP.
If you are into the looks of the AWP, Accuracy International offers their folding stocks in different rifle actions, like the
Remington 700 just mentioned. But a stock of theirs cost US$1000+.
I've been playin CS for about 2 months, on good days my frag-death is 3:2
Agent Blak September 5th, 2001, 07:17 PM

For reliablity you can't go wrong with the Lee/Enfield .303 British. The rifle will out live you. There were some that were tweaked
and made into Sniper Rifles
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
shooter3 September 5th, 2001, 08:45 PM

1903 springfield $90. + New WW-II manufactored 2 groove sniper barrel $32. + 3-9 power scope $50. = Lots of 30-06 accurate
fun for cheap.

For rat hunting I prefer a 12 guage Super Shorty with exploding (designed by NBK2K) CO2 shell rounds.
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cutefix September 6th, 2001, 02:03 AM

Powerful precision rifles require some skill in its use.You may have the most powerful sniper gun in the world,but when you fire
it and got your eyes socked by the scope,due to the unexpected heavy recoil;that will be called a real BULL'S EYE!You cannot
learn firing these guns efficiently overnight.It takes a lot of practice to fire a descent shot.Most of those talented snipers are
experienced shooters with other guns before they graduated to using precision rifles. In the military establishment, these guns
are given to those people who have special markmanship skills(above average).Therefore I suggest that you familiarize
yourself with proper gun handling and try exert much shooting practice using ordinary rifles,say a .223 caliber,then when you
are good at it then train well for the .303 bores.When you have accumulated enough skill,that will be the time to try your
sights on these special rifles.It is best to train also with people who have good experience in handling these special guns.
A-BOMB September 6th, 2001, 11:30 AM

My .215 beats all your sniper rifles altogether, let me describe it harris bipod, flip down micro-bipod in the butt,heavy match
barrel, crome plated bolt and reciver,
spiecal thumb hole stock, and to top it of a 70mm ziess 4x-26x scope. So in other words my gun beats all of yours!
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb

OH pics please!
BTW, I was unaware that Zeiss, or anyone else for that matter, made a 70mm objective scope. And in what aspect are you
basing a .215 on being better than everyone elses?
Fingerless September 6th, 2001, 06:45 PM

Yes, 70 mm's are made I believe. And most sniper rifles have very little recoil as they are very heavy. I shot a custom made
.308 designed for sniping, it barely moved, of course, that ain't no .50 BMG!
I would suggest a Remington 700, with a synthetic stock, and glass bedded. Capable of more than most shooters, and should
be plenty accurate for what you want. Take your choose of calibers! 25/06, .308, are both very accurate calibers.
A-BOMB September 6th, 2001, 08:38 PM

Sorry no pic's I don't really want the piggy to really know I have it a pic is real proof so no pic's sorry. And I say its the best
because of the hot load my uncle loads for it and because it puts out a 69 grain bullet at 3978 fps and will punch through a 8
inch thick tree and a 6 inch thick white oak with my target on it and keep going at 126 yards
and I've taken out ground hogs at 800 yards with it and only aiming over target 3 inchs.
So I say again my sniper guns better than all
of yours! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif
And the scopes preety old and its from who knows where go it at a auction a while back
and its got the clearest optic I've ever seen
and it could be a custom job because the scoper was off a suped up 30-378 wetherby mag.
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live by the bomb
die by the bomb
[This message has been edited by A-BOMB (edited September 06, 2001).]

Yes, 700's are very nice, although their recent quality is slipping a bit. They are the Chevy's of the rifle world, most any
competant gunsmith can work on them and they have a large supply of after market parts.
My .308 weights about 12.5# and barely moves when fired, but that will get you in trouble when you perch yourself behind a
7# .30-06. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

My dads got a 700 in 7mm remington mag and ultra mag. And what type of .308 winchester of britsh?
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
HMTD Factory September 7th, 2001, 12:50 AM

I don't believe in "using ordinary gun first for basics, then get better skill with precision rifle". At least the author of "The
Ultimate Sniper" doesn't believe in it.
Sure military use this method because they have limited sniper rifles.
A civilian, if seriously in persuit for marksmanship, go for a precision rifle, quality scope, low-recoil cartridge, and shoot at
more than 300 yards.(Sound much like an NRA high-power match, except using iron sights)
Why start off with high-end products(which I proudly don't have any)? You reduce mechanical error of the hardware to so low
that the shooter can see his own fault -and magnified by the long range flight of the bullet.
Right now there's a Remington 700 in .300 Win Mag in excellent condition sold at my local gunshop for only 400$CDN, great
price for who ever wants it! but I passed on it because the bolt face is already enlarged for the magnum, can't change it to use
other cartridges.

I don't agree. A high quality sniper rifle may have features which could make up for a bad shooting style/practise. So although
you might start out being pretty good, improvement would be difficult.
If you work your way up in quality of equipment you should see an improvement in your shooting each time you upgrade, If
you don't then you'll know that it's you that needs improving, not the equipment.

I LOVE my Mini-14.
Theres no other gun I'd like to have other than my Mini, it fucking rules and is as accurate is almost anyone would need it to
be.
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[This message has been edited by Maddoc (edited September 07, 2001).]

I agree with you Anthony, its better to go with a decent rifle, say around 3/4-1/2 MOA and master that, then dish out the big
dough for a more accurate rifle. You'll learn more in the process as well.
Maddoc,
Mini...hell, go for a real mans gun and go for the full version, the M-14. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif
hehehe, j/k I happen to like my Mini-30 http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
AR-15 Man September 8th, 2001, 08:51 PM

Well depends on how much you want to put in your rifle and how good you are. People say trick out a Rem 700 but I say a
Savage. It is cheaper and performs just as good when you trick it out. As for round it is depends on what your requirements
are. I mean those 40 dollar Mosin Nagaents are very accurate.
cutefix September 9th, 2001, 01:04 AM

D o y o u m e a n the Mosin Nagants ? The same rifles used b y the Vietcong snip ers du ring th e Nam War.A lot of grunts(GIs)
became victims to its accurate fire.This gun looks simple , but respectable weapon,I think it can be of the same league as
the Lee-Enfield rifle(also con verted to a s niper rifle) .
EventHorizon September 9th, 2001, 01:24 AM

AR-15 Man,
you are correct, the new Savages are getting quite nice reviews on quality. Not as many after market parts, but they are pretty
good.
My uncle has a Mosin Nagant (moisin faggot as I call it). Iron sights and bent barrel and he can pop a 2' steel target 3 out of
5 times at 500yds.
frostfire September 9th, 2001, 03:19 PM

INTERVENTION
a development of xm-107 Windrunner reduced caliber for .408 Cheyenne Tactical
1MOA~1k yards, remain subsonic at 2000 yards

Anthony, I am not saying your opinion is of someone who's not really into shooting, but take a "sniper" rifle down range and
fire off some quick shots at 200+yrds, you will see that the gun doesn't compensate bad skills, it REFLECTS them. The one
actually veils bad skill is a lousy rifle(1.5MOA+ , on sniper rifle standard), it veils good skill too.
Maybe I start with the wrong foot by saying "high-end equipment" and looked like a pompous a$$. By "quality equipment" I
mean "the kind that yield consistency". A 3/4~1/2
MOA rifle like EventHorizon said is already "quality equipment". I am in fact a fan of those "affordable accurate rifles" like the
Savage rifle mentioned by AR-15. Hell I would like to have a Savage 10FP .308Win in no time. What I use for my own training
is a
synthetic stocked Mauser 96/38 with Timney trigger topping a Tasco scope at 24 power + handloads shooting offhand (Do I
sound like a cheap a$$ now instead?)
Starting with low-quality equipment may end up spending MORE money and time than buying a decent one at the beginning.
Help yourself go through these two scenarios
1: A lousy shot happend -becuase the rifle don't lie, the shooter now go figure out what is wrong with his component skills.
When the grouping gets really good, the shooter know he's keeping up with the consistency.
2: A lousy shot happened -maybe the gun, maybe the shooter. Even when the shooting is actually good, the grouping gives
4+ MOA....
The person who correct your math paper must be honest so the score reflect your math ability, isn't that right?

I must admit that I'm not experienced in firearms shooting, but I do air rifles (that doesn't make me a pussy - honest...) and
was applying information from that.
What I meant to say that was if you start with real accurate rifle and you get good results from the go, then there is little
incentive to improve your shooting skills.
For example, with air rifles, the accepted way of learning to shoot is with a cheap(ish) recoiling spring gun. When I did this I
was getting 2-3" groups at 35yds, I tried various shooting and hold positions also leant trigger control, breathing, follow-
through and other stuff and I can now fit the head of a drawing pin (thumb tack) at the same 35yds. The next stage is to
upgrade to a more expensive, non-recoiling rifle which with the skills I learnt with the other rifle will allow me to the same thing
at 50-60yds. It will also have a better, fully adjustable trigger which I will improve my shooting.
Had I just started out with this rifle then I have got say 3/4" groups at 35yds after a bit of practise. But I would have learnt
bad shooting practises as the difference between using and not using follow through would have been much smaller than on
the recoiling rifle. So I would most likely not have used it. The adjustable trigger would also have been wasted as although it
will refine a good shot it won't make any difference to an inherently bad shot.
Recoiling air rifles are often to used to train firearms shooters as they require better shooting technique than many firearms.
Because, they recoil more than a rimfire, the recoil is first backwards, then forwards making gun jump rather than just push
backwards (makes the hold important). Also, unlike a firearm, the projectile is still in the barrel when the gun recoils, so how
you react to the recoil has serious effects on accuracy.
It's also said that if you take a shooter with a firearm rifle and a shooter with a recoiling air rifle and get them to switch guns,
each with no previous experience of the other's weapon. The airgunner will happily hit what he's aiming at, enjoying the
advnatages the firearm has, while the firearm guy would struggle.
I haven't seen this for myself so cannot sya it's definitely true.
Another thing any air rifle is good at teaching you is hold over and under as if your target is as little as 5yds from your zero
you need to adjust your aim point to hit it. It's also important to take wind into consideration when shooting an air rifle as the
projectile is so slow moving (relatively) that it's trajectory is easily changed.
If you were to take a novice shooter and give them a fully kitted out .50BMG which in the right hands is accurate at a mile+
chances are that he would learn more slowly than say if he started out with a Ruger 10/22, most likely because he'd be
concentrating on the recoil too much to notice the effects his shooting style is having.
BTW it doesn't have to be more expensive to keep upgrading your equipment. You can sell your previous gun to help pay for
the new one.
Oops, I think I rambledhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

No point in starting with some 2000 dollar sniper rifle. What someone needs is a rifle they can practice with and are not afraid
to get some work done with it. How many people are willing to bang around a 2000 dollar rifle? Really even a cheap sniper rifle
is more expensive than you think. First you need a good scope. Then you must either buy a lot of different brands of ammo
or get into handloading to find your right load. Then either change your trigger or get it lightened. Finally your stocks. Once
you think of it your 400 Dollar Savage will turn out to be very expensive. But that is the fun of it. I use a Savage and love the
rifle. I also have a M-44 carbine, 2 turks Mausers, and an Enfield. Also check out the Gibbs Quest II rifle. It is a Jungle Enfield
with some add ons. But when you get done to it going to training schools and practice are what make you good. I mean the
VC used old bolt actions a lot in the begining of the war. Learning to be a rifleman is the key. Alvin York comes to mind when I
think of this. I think we have some rifleman on this board.

See, we have to really talk into things so we both know what we are talking about.
Now that I understand Anthony's idea I believe he is right too.
My idea is that only a good rifle can "single out" the human error.
Anthony's idea is that a trainer rifle is what really trains a learner; while a perfect rifle will "spoil" a beginner.
A good learner rifle should be accurate, like I said, but can't be too easy to shoot -helps the learner handle recoil and improve
shooting skill, like Anthony said. The common idea is that the rifle must reflect holes in shooting skills. Our ideas don't
contradict after all.

I thought maybe we weren't talking about the same thinghttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Here are some movie clips of the PERFECT beginner rifle...the 577 T.Rex
HERE (http://www.accuratereloading.com/videos.html)
[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited September 10, 2001).]
Agent Blak September 10th, 2001, 08:58 PM

You coul always try the...
Mannlicher-Carcano: Model 31/98; 6.5mm it was good enough to off JFK anyways.
Oswald fired 3 shots from 150 feet away at a moving target landing 2 hits(1 to the skull and 1 to the neck) in 5.6 seconds.
There was a man when CBS did there test to fire 3 shots in in 4.8 Seconds all hittting their mark(3")...
------------------
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
green beret September 10th, 2001, 10:55 PM

Is it possible to get a .50 BMG in Australia?

Dunno, Birdman Weapon Systems might ship internationally if you ask nicelyhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
biggrin.gif
green beret September 11th, 2001, 11:31 PM

LOL- I remember that birdman "weapons" dude. He banned us from his site didnt he? HAHAHAHAHA!
plan-x September 17th, 2001, 07:55 AM

theres a company in QLD who makes 50BMG 3 shot BA rifles. i dont know their name but i've seen the bolt out of oe of these,
and it's about 10" long and 1.5" in diameter (freakin big when you're used to the bolt from a brno fox mod 2 .222rem)
------------------
They may kill us, but death brings only freedom.

I saw a 50BMG on display once (model unknown but it was stainless), the bolt was removed and you could look straight down
the barrel, it was like a fucking drainpipe!
I tried to take the weight of it to see how heavy it was and for a moment I thought it was screwed down (didn't want to jerk it
about as the display guy looked grumpyhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif)
I wouldn't want to be the soldier that had to carry one those bastards.
------------------
"Shit happens. Get a fucking helmet"
ShadowMyGeekSpace May 21st, 2006, 10:26 AM

M40A1 (7.62x51 NATO, .308 rem)
Barret M82A1 (.50 BMG)
Savage 10FP-LE2B (7.62x51 NATO, .308 rem)
Or, if you're a fan of older rifles, the Arisaka type 99 will do a dandy on anything it hits, with 7.7x58mm of death. Best of all,
you can pick up the parts off of ebay for cheap. The only problem is the price of the ammo.
wetpowder May 23rd, 2006, 10:18 AM

I like my 7mm mauser. I bought it surplus from a gun show. Went to the range and at 50 yards it was hitting 6 inches to the
right.
Feel sorry for the soldier who has it.
Edit: 7x57mm Model 1916 Mauser. A lot were converted to 7.62 NATO
+++++++++
7mm? 0_o
NBK
Alexires May 23rd, 2006, 12:17 PM

Hmmm, old thread, but still.
I'm almost certain that .50 are restricted in Aus, and you cant get them unless you have either a D or E class license (read
police or military license). Actually, come to think of it, you can't get much these days....
xyz May 24th, 2006, 06:13 AM

It varies from state to state, some states have no restrictions on .50BMG, classifying them the same as all other bolt action
centrefires.
irongriffin May 26th, 2006, 09:11 AM

Well I suppose that a heavy hitting bolt action would be good for sniping. Though I just have to say that a lever action 30-30
should do you well.
The reasoning behind this is that you can keep an aimed position and never need to take you finger off the trigger to put the
next round in the chamber. This is very effective.
ozboy June 15th, 2006, 12:18 PM

The Lee Enfield is a good cheap bolt action rifle with a 10 round clip, but theres a problem with mounting the scopes on these
rifles. Another thing which you must keep in mind is that in Australia it is an offence to have a loaded magazine within 1klm of
any road or path etc. (you'll learn the rules when you go for your licence).
USE
Therefore, it is a wiser choice to purchase a firearm with a integral magazine with a drop plate so that if you forget to unload
and do see a police officer, you can just drop the plate and the ammo will fall to the ground and you'll be out of trouble.
PARAGRAPH
I suggest you buy something like a howa lighting in 30-06. The 30-06 is a good all round calibre for medium to large game.
Its slightly more powerfull than the .308 but dosent have the wild kick of the .338 lapua magnum. Howa rifles are super
acurate( 1.5 MOA @ 100 yards out of the box garanteed).
BREAKS
They have an ajustable trigger also. You can purchase one brand new here in Australia for less than $900.00 with a 3.5-10x40
nikko sterling scope and stainless barrel, which is great value for such an acurate rifle. The weatherby vanguard would also be
an exelent choice.
neo-crossbow June 22nd, 2006, 10:41 AM

You coul always try the...
Mannlicher-Carcano: Model 31/98; 6.5mm it was good enough to off JFK anyways.
Oswald fired 3 shots from 150 feet away at a moving target landing 2 hits(1 to the skull and 1 to the neck) in 5.6 seconds.
There was a man when CBS did there test to fire 3 shots in in 4.8 Seconds all hittting their mark(3")...
Yet he couldn't hit a sitting Gen. Walker while he was doing his tax returns with it.... And don't come back with the deflected by
the window sash, its all history.
But I back using a mil surplus back-dated rifle to start with... after all they were cutting edge technology a while ago and its
best to slowly introduce yourself into the world of fire-arms.
Do NOT quote entire posts, signature and all! :mad:
inventorgp June 28th, 2006, 12:17 PM

How about a Jarrett Custom rifle - only (USD)$3000ish:rolleyes:
There's not a lot of gun shops in Brisbane anymore :(
Or a Harris M-87 .50BMG Sniper Rifle.
If you had to fight the "bad guys" Line em' up, and get all of em'
neo-crossbow June 29th, 2006, 06:59 AM

Is it possible to get a .50 BMG in Australia?
You will find that a .50 BMG calibre fire-arm gets immediate catergory R status (Class III for our U.S friends) There are 5 of
these licences currently on issue in Australia. Metal Storm is one such liscence holder, Warner Bros on the Gold Coast is
another, the three others are PMC (private military companies) operating abroad who store weapons in Australia for training
purposes only.
However... You can get a press and dies made by Lee from Die-a-rama. You will need a press with the 1 1/8" thread as
opposed to the normal 7/8 threads you find on most presses.
Contact:
2/159 Penshurst St
Beverly Hills NSW
2209
or Phone them on 02 9570 4794
You can get the brass and projectiles over the net from anywhere in the world. Powders and primers from your local gun-store
(if you show them a valid fire-arms liscence)
PMC list thier 660 grain ammo at 3080 fps
For similar results try 210 grains of AR 2214 pushing a 680 FMJ projectile.
Australian army .50BMG is loaded with AR2211
ADI's new handload booklet due out sometime this month will have .50BMG Data inside, so there is a nice Australian
reference.
Oh BTW a list of fire-arm catergories is listed : http://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/weaponsLicensing/general/category.htm
so you atleast know what is and isn't legal.
Happy hunting
Bugger June 29th, 2006, 07:50 AM

http://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/weaponsLicensing/general/category.htm is the website of the Queensland State Pigs.
They are the most corrupt and brutal Pig force in Australia.
Jacks Complete June 29th, 2006, 03:31 PM

Wow, that's some list. I find it odd that bullet-proof vests are in a class of their own, and that handcuffs are restricted too.
Guess the bondage types have to make do with wristcuffs and ropes?
Can you actually get any of these licenses, or are they basically locked right down? I assume there are increasing security
measures and checks for each of the classes, with A the lowest going up to R. Except that then E makes no sense.
I hear New Zealand has slightly better gun laws, and last time I looked, they had a couple who shot at world standard as one
of the case studies for moving over there, which bodes well.
I really want to get out of the UK soon.

Can you actually get any of these licenses, or are they basically locked right down?
I reside in Queensland and currently hold A,B,C, D(restricted to 1) E, H (restricted to one) and M.
I also resent the statement from Bugger. I have found them to be most helpful in almost every adventure. When I was in the
mining game they would be required to come out and check my magazine. They were always helpful and would stay for a chat.
(If they were keen it would always culminate into a blast)
I also allow 2 policemen to hunt on my property, they often repair damaged fences they find (or atleast report it to me).
inventorgp June 30th, 2006, 07:42 AM

Only some are corrupt. I know a cop (law bizwax stuff) who makes ANFO and
sets them of on his dad's farm for removing trees:D
Thanks for the link neo-crossbow. Oh and you know those Airsoft guns, well
they are class A air rifles. Don't ask me why, although paintball isn't.
Well at least I can get a semi-auto rifle;)
Storm on the Horizon June 30th, 2006, 09:58 PM

And most sniper rifles have very little recoil as they are very heavy. I shot a custom made .308 designed for sniping, it barely
moved, of course, that ain't no .50 BMG!
Take your choose of calibers!
I've spent some time behind the M24 and consider it "weighty" (around 15 pounds unloaded if memory serves me). This was
during my stint in the Army and the weapon mentioned was most definately designated for a sniper role. I can tell you that
there was still quite a bit of recoil. I'm guessing the rifle you shot may have had a muzzle break - something we didn't have
avalible with the M24.
As far as choice of calibers... with all the weapons I own, I use/fire what the "powers that be" use. Being in the States that
means NATO calibers for the most part. I personally avoid exotic calibers that may not be availble futher down the road with
civilian restricions. Sometimes this will mean forfeiting performance - but I will do so infavor of avaliblity. If your down under,
look at what the military/Law Enforcement uses and match them.
My 2.5 cents.
neo-crossbow June 30th, 2006, 10:38 PM

If your down under, look at what the military/Law Enforcement uses and match them.
Excellent post. Another thing to remember for all those Aussie Adventurists. With the withdrawl of the MAG58 (L7 if your British
/ M240 if your American or FN MAG if your other) from section level in the Australian Army, there really isn't too much 7.62
used at base level of infantry operations. If you trawl through our low intensitry doctrine or some photos of our recent
deployments you will see the Minimi setting foot in places only a 7.62 Belt fed monster should.
I have a Savage 5.56 bolt gun and I fire SS109's from it exclusivly should that day ever come. Currently you can get 840
rounds of F1 Ball ammo for $350 from most gunshops. It comes in a liner, already vac sealed. A nice little put away.
inventorgp July 11th, 2006, 10:47 AM

Well here 7.62 is reserved for Sniper and 5.56 is infantry - its what they use in
those crappy styres. I don't like bullpups, its a good idea to reduce the length
but, I don't like em'. 7.62 "hurts" (kills) to much so they use 5.56.
Would it be possible to get a MAG58?

Neo: whats your Savage like, grouping and all?
And did you match the cal. to the standard infantry cartridge here?
Dank$taVegas July 11th, 2006, 05:58 PM

Seems to be an old post, but since there have been new replys in the last few days thought I'd post.
For squirril and rabbit hunting I prefer my .50 BMG, one shot, one kill
To think people have told me that using a Winchester 94 in .444 Marlin for shooting Grizzly and other big game was over kill.
:eek:
Best Bolt Action Rifle..

Well thats a hard question and one you will get many answers for. To say the truth there is no "Best Bolt Action Rifle" out
there. It all depends on what it will be used for & the amount of money one has to spend on the gun & components. Every
factory gun has flaws that can be improved upon, to enhance the guns performance & not all custom guns will fit the budget
and needs for the shooter (I can speak with experience since I own 4 custom range rifles that see no use at all except they
look really pretty in the gun safe, and have 5 factory rifles/guns that are used on a regular basis.).
One of the best ways to find out what gun suits you is to go to a shooting range and ask people there to shoot their rifles,
some ranges have a assortment of rifles/guns on can try out. This will help you decide if a given gun is suitable for you.
If your looking for a good Stick/Sniper Rifle for long range shooting capable of hitting to 800yards with ease & up to 1000+
yards under good field conditions, more likely than not you will be looking for a custom gun. Dont look to get too many
rounds through the barrel of a custom rifle before you have to change the barrel (9,000-10,000 rounds if your lucky since the
accuracy degrades after rounds have been put through it, most people who shoot in compatitions change their barrels after
2000 shots have gone through the barrel, then the break in of the new barrel begins.).
One of the best makers to look into for a decent long range factory starter rifle is a Savage, some people say they are shit,
but I have nothing bad to say about them. There barrels use to be rather poor quality but have improved in the recent years.
There are a good affordable rife for someone looking to get a stick, and can be upgraded rather easley & cheaply. Depending
on how heavy of a bullet you will be firing through the factory barrel, one might want to invest in a custom barrel with a better
twist to help improve accuracy.
What models of rifles Have you boys all got in your gun cabinets?
Rifles/Sticks
1)Ed Brown Custom Model 702 in the .300 WMS Caliber
2)Winchester 94 in .444 Marlin
3)Savage 12 BVSS in .243 with a 1 in 9.25 twist to handle the heavy .243 bullets.
4)GAP in .308 built by GAP
5)300 WSM Built on a Remington 700 action, Mike Rock (1-11.25 twist barrel).
6)GAP Rem 700 .308, Remy 700 action lapped and trued, Mike Rock 20" barrel w/ Spec Ops break, All Badger Ordnance
metal, Badger Ordnance Oversized bolt handle knob, Badger 20 moa scope mount base, Badger rings, McMillan A3 stock. All
work done by GAP
7)GAP 338 Lapua, Schneider 5p "Overunder" barrel 27" Plus break, Badger bottom metal, McMillan desert camo stock with
13.5lop and decel, Holland bolt handle, Factory turned trigger. All work done by GAP
8)McMillan TUBB 2000 Tactical, .308, original pistol grip and David Tubb SSS composite grip
second stock recoil insert.
Shotguns:
10)Mossberg 500 magazine fed, manually operated (pump action)
11)Benelli Nova 28" barrel, Mercury recoil reducer in the stock .
Handguns:
12)Taurus Tracker series .41 Magnum
13)Tauras Tracker series .357 Magnum
Most of these Rifles were custom built by GAP, and are used for long range target shooting only, I bought the custom rifles off
my old man, who is into Shooting competitions of 1000+ yards, and gets a new Stick every year, and discards his old one at a
redicusly low price to me (he wants me to get into Ranging; but I really don't have the time to spare right now), most of the
custom built rifle have had well over $5000.00 Canadian invested into them, and are extreamly accurate at long range. Most
of the custom rifles have less than 170 shots through the barrel, and see very little use, but they look pretty in the gun safe.
The only ones I use on a regular basis are the 1st two in my list & one shotgun and both handguns these are my tried and
true hunting rifles for deer and big game; and my Mossberg 500 magazine fed shotgun for ducks and other feathered friends,
and 2 hand guns for backup protection incase the rifles don't provided enough stopping power and I'm cought in a close
quarters situation with a wounded bear or large game animal; and being charged by a wounded Grizzly bear with no side arm
and only a scope mounted weapon with no open sights is not a situation I want to have happen to me again:eek:
Edit.....
***Pictures adderd***
1)GAP in .308 built by GAP
http://rapidshare.de/files/25622809/GAP_308.jpg.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/25623777/GAP_308_2.jpg.html
2)McMillan TUBB 2000 Tactical, .308
http://rapidshare.de/files/25623526/McMillan_Tactical_308.jpg.html
More to come when I have time to upload......
cletus July 18th, 2006, 03:18 PM

the .303 smle cannot be beaten in value and performance,considering the fact that you live in australia it is the obvious
choice;
-ten round magazine
-abundant stocks of cheap surplus ammo
-ease of scope mounting
-accesories are cheap eg.synthetic stocks
-the rifle was produced on your soil at lithgow arsenal
-easilly detached buttstock aids when concealment is a factor
-price
neo-crossbow July 20th, 2006, 07:06 AM
I don't like em'. 7.62 "hurts" (kills) to much so they use 5.56.
Would it be possible to get a MAG58?
Neo: whats your Savage like, grouping and all?

And did you match the cal. to the standard infantry cartridge here?
1) The change in calibre had nothing to do with effective range, power or price. It was to address 'the changing nature of the
battlefield' and to keep up with DIB doctrine of amount of fire-power. This was the Australian reason for change. If you ever
get the chance to read pre-vietnam circa pams of Australian doctrine you can see the argument for change building. What
stopped the arguement mid way through Vietnam was when the SOI (School Of Infantry) published a lessons learnt pam for
platoon commanders about to deploy totally questioning the 'penetrating ability of the 5.56 into vegetation'. This was
reproduced a couple of years ago into the Infantry Corps magazine and should be available on back order to you.
2) Yes it is possible to get a mag58. I don't like your chances at it legally however. If you can get a cat R liscence good luck to
you.
3) The Savage was on par for what I expected for the price. I had it bedded and re-crowned. Custom mounts were also
machiened up for it. Your not looking at a 1/2 MOA factory job but you could come very close with patience. I have been firing
factory loads from it but I am sure with premium factory or good handloads it would group better again.
4) I chose the Calibre because of the lack of .308 floating around at section level in the battalions. I've got a .308 but I am
sure post TEOTWAWKI its going to have an exclusive role.
ShadowKnows November 7th, 2006, 05:02 AM

One bolt-action worth looking into is the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin K31. It was the mainstay of Swiss military forces from 1931 to
the 50s; they were one of the last countries to abandon bolt-action rifles for their military. The K31 uses a straight-pull bolt
action, meaning that you just pull the bolt back and push it forward; you don't have to lift the handle upwards. It's known for
its high accuracy and low price; K31s can be had wherever milsurp rifles are sold for around $120. Imported Swiss ammo is
fairly expensive, ranging from 30-70 cents per round, but it's all non-corrosive and near match grade.
Basic information: 'http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/index.html'
Enthusiasts' forum: 'http://p090.ezboard.com/fcollectorguns35625frm1?page=1'
The rifles use iron sights, but you can buy clip-on scope mounts that don't require drilling and tapping: 'http://
www.surplusrifle.com/reviews2006/stmariescopebaseswiss/index.asp'
Finally, here's a site full of general sniper info and equipment reviews: 'http://www.snipercentral.com/'
inventorgp November 14th, 2006, 04:25 AM

IGNORE MY PREVIOUS COMMENTS... As I understand more about firearms than I did.
How about a Ruger 96/22 lever action .22LR and fit it with a 25 round mag.
Or a Remington 7600/7615 series pump action rifle cambered in .223Rem. M16/AR15 mags fit this, so get a 40 round if you
can. (7615 series shown)
Are the pictures showing?
++++++++++
Whatever you tried to attach wasn't working, so I deleted the links. Try again. NBK
Cobalt.45 November 15th, 2006, 08:54 PM

How about a Ruger 96/22 lever action/ Or a Remington 7600/7615 series pump action rifle
Thing is, the thread is "Best Bolt Action Rifle"
But the guns you mention are good production long guns...
Big Mac November 22nd, 2006, 04:55 AM

Basically I'd just get any BAR (Bolt-Action Rifle) from WWII (Lee-Enfield, Mauser, Mosin-Nagant, etc.) because they are
reliable, battle proven, will last nearly forever, generally have good rifling (the Israeli Mauser I own currently has flawless rifling
with no rust on the interior, just the outside) and are really cheap (mine costed about a 100 bucks after taxes, the dumbasses
at the pawn shop had no idea what they had).
Word of advice on a Mauser chambered in 7.62mm: Do NOT use commerical loads of .308 Winchester. They are too hot in
most cases and can cause an eruption.
grendel23 November 22nd, 2006, 06:17 AM

Big Mac,
"BAR" is usually short for Browning Automatic Rifle.
neo-crossbow November 23rd, 2006, 09:54 PM

People need not make up any more acronyms. BAR most certainly is Browning Auto Rifle. Never heard it used for Bolt Action
Rifle. There are enough TLA's around. (Three Letter Acronym)
Big Mac November 24th, 2006, 12:49 AM
Big Mac,
"BAR" is usually short for Browning Automatic Rifle.
I know it is, but I was using an acronym that was different from the usual use (hence the note afterwards like this one). Good
that you're on your toes about it.
NCB (sorry, but it does fit) I suppose I could agree but I like that kind of small construction. Like playing a vengeful and pissy
God or something. Regardless, look past the acronym and just consider the other information I posted.
ozboy November 28th, 2006, 06:17 AM

Inventorgp,
The Remington 7600/7615 series pump action rifle cambered in .223Rem. is now a cat C rifle due to the fact it can take M16/
AR15 mags, (according to my local gunshop).
neo-crossbow December 2nd, 2006, 03:43 AM

Inventorgp,
The Remington 7600/7615 series pump action rifle cambered in .223Rem. is now a cat C rifle due to the fact it can take M16/
AR15 mags, (according to my local gunshop).
I'd shop somewhere else. It (the firearm) once fitted with a magazine with a capacity of more then 10 rounds becomes a
catergory D 'military style' fire-arm (even though its not semi auto)
It is the same as taking a 10 shot semi auto .22 and putting a larger capacity magazine on it. You can purchse the fire arm
and the magazine, just don't put them together. The rifle hasn't changed classification, nor will it be doing so very soon. There
has been a huge uproar at lever action shotguns at the moment also.
nbk2000 December 2nd, 2006, 07:47 PM

Lever action shotguns getting the axe? I guess some Oz politician finally rented Terminator 2. ;)
inventorgp December 3rd, 2006, 09:25 PM

now a cat C rifle... (according to my local gunshop).
Well ozboy, it depends on the state you live in. Western Australia has(?) a ban on them.
It (the firearm) once fitted with a magazine with a capacity of more then 10 rounds becomes a category D 'military style' fire-
arm (even though its not semi auto)
Then why do gun shops sell mags???
JUST A REMINDER (IN BOLD)

Category A weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category A weapon if it has not been
rendered permanently inoperable
(d) a rimfire rifle (other than a self-loading rimfire rifle);
3 Category B weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category B weapon if it has not been
rendered permanently inoperable
(d) a repeating centre fire rifle;
4 Category C weapons
Each of the following is a category C weapon if it has not been rendered
perm anently inoperable
(a) a semiautomatic rimfire rifle with a magazine capacity no greater
than 10 rounds;
5 Category D weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category D weapon
(a) a self-loading centre fire rifle designed or adapted for military
purposes or a firearm that substantially duplicates a rifle of that
type in design, function or appearance;
(b) a non-military style self-loading centre fire rifle with either an
integral or detachable magazine;
(c) a self-loading shotgun with either an integral or detachable
magazine with a capacity of more than 5 rounds and a pump
action shotgun with a capacity of more than 5 rounds;
(d) a self-loading rimfire rifle with a magazine capacity of more than
10 rounds.
Model 1887, I love that shotgun, I love that movie:)
That REALLY sucks if that is true. Might as well get an armourers licence and build my own semi and full autos.
I was just mentioning those guns because they are and alternate for BAR. I personally would only get a BAR if it was
chambered in .50BMG (and +.45), that is the only exception I'll make for myself.
---------------------------IT IS ALL BS------------------------------
ShadowKnows December 4th, 2006, 03:58 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTRD
"The PTRD-41 (Shortened from Russian, Protywotankovoye Rushyo Degtyaryova) was an anti-tank rifle produced and used
from early 1941 by the Soviet Red Army during World War II. It was a single-shot weapon that fired 14.5 x 114 mm tungsten
core rounds."
Fun for the entire SWAT team inside their armored car. I doubt anyone is shipping them to Australia, unfortunately, but I've
heard they can be found in Canada, where they're completely legal. Prohibited in the US without a Class III license.
defiant December 20th, 2006, 10:00 PM

Armalite's AR-30 in .338 Lapua is a good quality long range bolt action:
http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/ar30.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/ArmaLite_AR-30.htm
The rounds are expensive at $4 a round, but the ballistics are exceedingly impressive.
orangeman January 25th, 2007, 06:52 PM

Pick up a break action .22. it was the best investment I made. It is so cheap to take care of and the price of round is very low.
If you are looking for something more powerful I like a 30-06. Scope or not its just fun to shoot.
defiant February 19th, 2007, 11:45 PM

On the first page of this topic frostfire wrote about a bolt action called "Intervention":
INTERVENTION a development of xm-107 Windrunner reduced caliber for .408 Cheyenne Tactical
1MOA~1k yards, remain subsonic at 2000 yards
The rifle he was referring to is the CheyTac Intervention (M100, M200, & M300). The .408 round remains supersonic at 2000
yards, and was designed to outrange the 338 Lapua. Intervention refers to its designed purpose as a counter-sniper rifle.
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/5356/cheytacintervention408nz8.jpg
More info available here: http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn63-e.htm
ozboy February 20th, 2007, 07:03 AM

I have recently discovered that the Remington 7600/7615 series pump action rifle cambered in .223Rem (10 shot mag), has
been put into cat B.
If you get caught with a hi-cap mag (M-16 type) you will find yourself to be in a lot of trouble.
The 1887 lever action shotgun is currently cat A. (6 shot, short barrel, only shottie we can own these days with that sort of
capacity. (Not a bolt action but still my favorite).
LibertyOrDeath February 20th, 2007, 09:06 AM

Armalite's AR-30 in .338 Lapua is a good quality long range bolt action.
...
The rounds are expensive at $4 a round, but the ballistics are exceedingly impressive.That will probably be my next rifle. I've
heard nothing but good things about it. I'll definitely be reloading for that mother, though.
I'm not sure what the best bolt action rifle is, but for the price I'd say it's very hard to beat a Savage 110FP in .300 Win Mag.
Put a 10X Super Sniper scope on it with rings by Tactical Precision Systems, and you're in business.
http://www.savagearms.com/110fp.htm
http://www.snipercentral.com/sav110fp.htm
The scope is only $300 (or $400 for the side-focus model) but has quality comparable to scopes costing much more. The
optics are very clear, and it's rugged enough to withstand .50 BMG recoil. Check out the review here:
http://www.supersniper.com/Reviews/4.htm
nbk2000 February 20th, 2007, 06:02 PM

What about the Zeiss Victory Diarange 3-12x56 T Riflescope with integrated laser rangefinder?
With extremely long range shooting, precise range measurement is essential, and having the rangefinder in the scope means
you don't have to take your eye off the target to range it. :)
Not cheap, but anything worth having usually isn't.

defiant February 20th, 2007, 08:10 PM

Zeiss has an extremely good reputation - but as you observed they're expensive. Maybe someday.
In the meantime I wouldn't get the Tasco. I'm prejudiced. Not long ago Tasco got contracts with the K-marts and Walmarts
and got name brand recognition. But they were Chinese shit that didn't deserve their name brand recognition. Undoubtedly
their scopes have improved - but its still a Chinese scope selling for near US prices - which is offensive. A 40 powered scope is
also overkill in most applications, and if it was needed I'd prefer a 50mm rather than 30mm objective, and I'd want it with
parralax adjustment.
In comparison the NCStar scopes are made in China but sell for a fraction of the price of either Tasco or US scopes, and are
every bit as good as scopes costing far more. The NCstar 6x24-50 is priced at $120 (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/SCP313-
46172-2661.html). There is no rangefinder, but this model includes a forward focus, parallax adjustment, multi-coated lenses,
illumination for low light conditions, along with other features found on far more expensive scopes.
Tasco relies on name brand recognition. Scopes manufactured in the same factory as Tasco can be had for a fraction of the
price. Google search: CDNN Investments.
NCstar products (scopes, lasers, bipods, etc) also have a lifetime guarantee. Not that will do you much good if you lose your
life due to equipment failure... - so spend a $1000 bucks and stop being cheap!
With regards to the Savages, as Dank$ta noted early on - Savages overcame a poor reputation. By all accounts they're
accurate now, but they never fascinated me as the bolt travel was rather sloppy. It locked securely, but I lost interest.
Savages have a good reputation now and reportedly shoot accurately - but why get a bolt action in a caliber where there's an
equally accurate mag fed semi-auto available? The Armalite and DPMS in .308 and .300 shoot close to 1/2 moa at 100 out of
the box and are mag fed, and can be accurized - which is far more versatile than a bolt action in the same caliber.
A bolt action has its place for practice (slowing up a novice shooter) and/or special calibers, such as the .338. The .338 round
is expensive, but Lapua brass can be reloaded some 10 times (annealing the brass along the way) - whereas typical cartridges
can only be reloaded 2-4 times. So in the long term the cost of Lapua brass is negligible - however painful the initial layout of
$80-90 for 20 rounds or $200 for 100 .338 brass cartridges may be (exluding the cost of bullets, powder, primers, and
reloading equipment/dies/etc).
In any event, the .338 was designed to be a special purpose sniper weapon. Historically 300-500 kills is excellent for a military
sniper. Even with practice rounds expended that's not a hell of a lot of rounds.

Historically 300-500 kills is excellent for a military sniper.
Do you mean 300-500 as in number of enemy killed, or did you mean 300-500 meter kills?
Because I think there's been only 2 or 3 snipers in history with 300+ confirmed kills, and those were during WW2.
As for anything you'll be betting your life on, Made in China = Death.
I've seen various chinese scopes at gunstores, and every one of them is shit.
Zeiss, Trijicon, Aimpoint, and their like is what you get, and you gladly pay the price if your life means anything to you. If you
don't see it on the rifles of first-world soldiers in combat, it's not there for a reason.
defiant February 21st, 2007, 06:04 AM

Yeah, there have been very few snipers with 300-500 kills. So it doesn't make a lot of sense to stock up thousands of rounds
of special purpose sniper ammo unless your feeding an army.
With regards to Chinese scope quality, 10 or 20 years ago I'd have agreed with you. Nor am I an advocate of Chinese
products generally, but about five years ago a gun dealer nagged me into checking out NCstar. I'm glad I did.
They may not be the latest and the greatest - but the one's I have are clear, bright, and thus far haven't broken or fogged
up. They also maintain zero. Thus far I haven't regretted a single NCstar purchase, and I have several scopes, bipods, and
lasers. The laser is extremely efficient and lasts longer on a set of batteries than US made models (which I've since given
away).
Russian and Ukranian military scopes are another high quality low priced alternative - but the selection of models and mounts
is generally poor in the American marketplace.
Not that I've got anything against a $600 Trijicon, Zeiss, or Leopold [other than the price]. I'd also like a $5000 3rd
generation night scope.
Maybe someday I'll buy one or acquisition one from the opposition. In the meantime, less expensive scopes are a viable
option for outfitting a number of firearms. This is particularly true for someone who is caching weapons on a limited budget.
Not every cached weapon needs to be a wet dream come true.
Nor is there anything irrespectible about paying $50-$150 for a good quality scope (new or used), $20-$100 for a mount, or
$50-$100 on a iron/night sight upgrade (as backup).
Those WWII snipers with 300 plus kills managed with a lot less.
Nor should any optics be relied upon 100% - accidents happen. Iron sights are the backup (when feasible).
This said, the NCstar is not the ultimate scope for the "best bolt action."
Boom-stick March 1st, 2007, 01:00 PM

Best Bolt action?
Remy 700's hold a strong following at my club, but personally I favour the old British .303 and all of its variants, including the
De Lisle Carbine in .45acp. I recently got the chance to play with a prototype reproduction for a modern De Lisle that uses
Glock Hi-cap mags, very accurate little gun and very,very quiet too (thinking about ordering one for myself).
AIA make a Lee Enfield based 7.62x39 rifle that uses AK mags, they are getting popular over here in the UK and anything by
Armalon has a good rep, but is quite pricey.
I don't own a bolt action myself (I'm a pistol man) but when I do get one, it will be Enfield based because I like the action.
The way the bolt is positioned over the trigger allows for very fast manipulation with the thumb and fore-finger holding the bolt
while the middle finger engages the trigger:)
.50 cal BMG's are ok if you like that sort of thing, but theres only a couple of ranges in the UK that are certified for that much
ME and none of them are anywhere near me. Even .338 has been banned from most UK ranges now for being to powerful.
nbk2000 March 1st, 2007, 04:14 PM

Do you already know you would be permitted to own a rifle, or are you assuming you'll be able to get such a permit?
From what we've seen of the UK and gun-rights, that may be too much of an assumption.
Boom-stick March 2nd, 2007, 06:55 AM

nbk2000 said: Do you already know you would be permitted to own a rifle, or are you assuming you'll be able to get such a
permit?
I am already permitted to hold such firearms, I hold Shotgun and firearm licenses with the various 'slots' to enable me to hold
and use more of them.
Currently I Own,
Freedom Arms Mini revolver (one of only 2000 made)
.44mag Competitor (UK spec pistol)
.22 Browning Buckmark (UK spec pistol)
Various legally held Brococks
Beretta 686 12g
Beretta 303 12g
And currently on order,

.44mag Taurus (awaiting next shipment from the US)
.22 AR15 with Suppressor (currently being built to my spec)
Rem 1100 (11 shot Hi-Cap IPSC Race gun)
Rem 1100 Standard Skeet gun
In addition to what listed above both currently held and on order I'm also permitted to hold another Hi-Cap 12g Shotgun, a
.223 rifle & a .308win handgun, any of which I trade over for a .45ACP DeLisle with Suppressor.
I have all the relivant paper work, I just struggle with funding it all:)
LibertyOrDeath March 2nd, 2007, 11:42 PM

In the meantime I wouldn't get the Tasco. I'm prejudiced. Not long ago Tasco got contracts with the K-marts and Walmarts
and got name brand recognition. But they were Chinese shit that didn't deserve their name brand recognition. Undoubtedly
their scopes have improved - but its still a Chinese scope selling for near US prices - which is offensive. A 40 powered scope is
also overkill in most applications, and if it was needed I'd prefer a 50mm rather than 30mm objective, and I'd want it with
parralax adjustment.Are you referring to the Super Sniper scope I mentioned earlier? Because (just for clarification) it does
have parallax adjustment, and the objective is 42mm, not 30mm. The magnification is 10X, 16X, or 20X, depending on the
model. Your "40 powered scope" may be a typo -- that would definitely be overkill! :) Military snipers tend to use 10X on their
rifles.
Anyway, I would seriously reconsider dismissing them outright. I'm not sure if they're made in China, but I can tell you for a
fact that they're of extremely high quality. Mark Serbu recommends them for use on his .50 BMG rifles, so they're obviously
plenty rugged. These were made to compete for a Navy contract and are even in use on some sniper/designated marksmen
rifles in Iraq. Some pics here:
http://www.supersniper.com/SuperSniperPhotos.htm
And some more reviews: http://www.swfa.com/c-231-super-sniper-rifle-scopes.aspx
My only complaint about mine is that the clicks of the target knobs could be a little crisper.
They may not be the latest and the greatest - but the one's I have are clear, bright, and thus far haven't broken or fogged
up. They also maintain zero. Thus far I haven't regretted a single NCstar purchase, and I have several scopes, bipods, and
lasers. The laser is extremely efficient and lasts longer on a set of batteries than US made models (which I've since given
away).I hadn't heard of NCstar, but thanks for the tip.
Still, if I could have only one scope, I'd rather have it be an extremely high-quality, variable-powered scope as opposed to a
fixed-power.
Zeiss is definitely top-grade, and an integrated rangefinder is a big plus (though it's always necessary to be aware of
equipment that can detect such devices). It's always nice to have a mil-dot reticle to fall back on. I hear consistently
outstanding reviews of U.S. Optics and Schmidt & Bender, too.
Getting back to rifles proper, I think a big part of the question as to what rifle is the "best" has to do with cartridge choice. I
was once a big fan of the .308 and I still think it's a fine round, but now that government thugs are increasingly using body
armor that can stop .308 (and expanding the coverage beyond just the vital organs), I'm beginning to get interested in more
potent calibers like .300 Win Mag and .338 Lapua. Also, as a "fuck you" to California legislators who banned the .50 BMG in
that state, Barrett Firearms is going to be coming out with rifles in a new caliber, the .416 Barrett, which should be awesome!
The latter was featured on Discovery Channel's Future Weapons, though I missed it. From Barrett's website:
http://www.barrettrifles.com/faq.aspx
The Barrett Model 99 32 barrel chamb ered for .416 Barrett fires a 400 grain machine-turned solid brass ba ll projectile at
approximately 3250 fps. :eek: :D
chemdude1999 March 3rd, 2007, 06:26 PM

LibertyOrDeath rekindled my interest in Savage rifles. They just came out with a new F-class (1000 yard comp.) set of rifles in
.308 and 6.5-284 NORMA. They are the Model 12 F/TR and the Model 12 F.
The 6.5 has better ballistics, but the .308 grouped at 0.88 inches (average of five 3-shot groups) at 500 yards with Sierra 155-
gr. HPBT!! It grouped under 2 inches at 500 yards with several factory loads too. All from the April '07 Shooting Times report.
It uses the new Savage adjustable trigger, 6 ounces to 2.5 pounds. It is a single shot bolt-gun. 30 inch stainless heavy barrel.
At under $1200 it's a deal. The rifle is made for bench-rest, however it looks like it could be fielded easily. Check out if you
can.
defiant March 3rd, 2007, 11:37 PM

LibertyOrDeath wrote:
Are you referring to the Super Sniper scope I mentioned earlier? Because (just for clarification) it does have parallax
adjustment, and the objective is 42mm, not 30mm. The magnification is 10X, 16X, or 20X, depending on the model. Your "40
powered scope" may be a typo -- that would definitely be overkill!
I was, and it was an error on my part arising from a poor product description. The add (http://www.riflescopes.com/
prodinfo.asp?number=SS10X42M) describes the Tasco Super Sniper scope as 10x42 30mm, and mistakenly I took that to
mean it was a 10-42x30. Typically the size of the tube in the main product description title, but it was my mistake.
The ad also lists the scope as costing $399 - which is too much for a Chinese scope. Today I researched the matter further,
and found several models of the Super Sniper available on Ebay for $145 or less from a seller in China.
Tasco's are built in China. As I recall they were formerly built in Japan, and were better quality at that time. Revues of Tasco
scopes at midwayusa.com are mixed - half indicating that Tasco is a great value and half indicating that the scope broke in
short order. These reviews were not for the Super Sniper, which Midway doesn't carry.
Also, the page you linked to does state that the M model includes parallax adjustment. The ads linked to from that page are
not for the M models.
Sorry for the confusion.
With regards to NCstar - their 6-24x50 loses clarity over 20, which wasn't unexpected. Clarity and brightness is good below 20.
Not excellent. Brightness at higher magnification is mediocre. Clicks are 1/8 and positive.
Next step is to see how it holds up breaking in a DPMS LR .308 24" stainless bull barrel. A DPMS notice that came with the rifle
states:
"Please keep in mind that our barrels are production barrels, not custom barrels. Accuracy is dependent on many factors such
as bullet weight, powder load, rifle twist, rifling lands, operator technique, etc. Our production barrels have achieved anywhere
from .125 M.O.A. to 1.5 M.O.A. Obviously, we would hope that every production barrel would shoot .5 M.O.A., but with all the
above factors we cannot guarantee a specific group size."
Last I heard, Savage barrels are also production barrels, and similar considerations apply.
My reason for getting the DPMS over a Savage or Winchester bolt action in .308 is that the DPMS is a 20 round magazine fed
semi auto. Reportedly the DPMS is on a par to bolt actions in .308. The DPMS upper can also be changed out by removing two
pins - so replacing the barrel is no more difficult than cleaning the gun. To me it makes sense to reserve a bolt action for
calibers too large for magazine feeds or for long range accuracy in larger calibers.
InfernoMDM March 4th, 2007, 12:24 AM

I just wanted to say that I agree with LibertyOrDeath on the savage rifles. They are probably some of the best weapons for the
price. I have done more and can out shoot my friend who has 800 dollar 9x-20x(?) Remington 700 (LE version with the heavy
barrel and modified trigger) with my other friends 7mm out of the box savage.
I don't think the model he put out is really worth the price unless you plan to shoot a thousand plus rounds through it in the
span of a year. Hell most people never breach 400 rounds a year shooting. There hunting rifle is half that and comes in every
major caliber. I prefer 7mm for the price(half of the 300win mag) but both rounds are good choices for reaching out.
Note - Do NOT polish or smith Savage unless you know what you have bought. I believe the term is Case Hardened and they
use a heat treatment that hardens the outer layer of the metal while retaining the playability of the softer steel. This means if
you remove metal you will actually get a harder trigger pull.
defiant March 4th, 2007, 01:52 PM

Removing the hardened outer layer of the hammer or sear exposes the softer metal, resulting in wear and reducing longevity
of the trigger group.
High end custom trigger groups tend to be hardened throughout.
captain clay June 3rd, 2007, 04:49 PM

Savages are quite a good value, and are quite accurate but my choice would be a model 96 Swedish Mauser.
It can be purchased for less than thew Savage is much more robust and more accurate.
I settled on this rifle after much trial and research, and I consider it better than any contemporary bolt action for this intended
role.
Time after time this rifle has out shot heavy barreled Remington ''tactical'' sniper derivatives at various competitions as well.
Torvaun June 12th, 2007, 06:03 AM

I like my Savage .243. Got it for deer, but I use it for targets more than anything else, and not nearly enough of that lately. If
you're looking for a rifle with some real stopping power, consider a 30.06. Those were used for sniper rifles during Vietnam by
U.S. Army and Marines snipers.
Of course, if you can put a bullet on target well enough to consistently headshot human-sized targets, even a .22 rimfire will
pierce a skull and ruin large portions of gray matter. Accuracy first, then power.
Rbick June 13th, 2007, 01:42 PM

I was very excited to see this thread, considering I just purchased a beautiful new rifle yesterday.
It is a .308 (7.62x51mm NATO)LE Savage Choate with a folding stock and 20" barrel. I put on a retractable bipod and a
Bushnell 5-15 power tactical scope. Of course the barrel is free float. It has an accutrigger with 1 1/2 pound pull. I thought my
M-4s 4 1/2 pound pull was light, you can almost breathe on this one and fire it.
Since I'm breaking it in, I only moved the target out to 300m yesterday. I was putting rounds within the size of a quarter. After
work, I'm probably going to site it in for 600m. When the scope is at max zoom, I can actually see my heartbeat make the
sites move. Its so wonderful.
I plan to use this for medium game, such as deer and coyotes, for 600m competition matches, and for the government
collapse, whenever that may be.
prespec June 26th, 2007, 05:06 PM

Savages are quite a good value, and are quite accurate but my choice would be a model 96 Swedish Mauser.
It can be purchased for less than thew Savage is much more robust and more accurate.
I settled on this rifle after much trial and research, and I consider it better than any contemporary bolt action for this intended
role.
Time after time this rifle has out shot heavy barreled Remington ''tactical'' sniper derivatives at various competitions as well.
I don't know what sort of matches you have been attending, but the Mod 96, while being a fine example of how a military rifle
of it's era should be made, is simply not up to modern competition standards.
The 6.5x55 cartridge is ,however, when used in a well constructed match rifle.
But again, it is no more inherently accurate than a 308 or any other well balanced cartridge. It just suits the requirements of
long range competition well, having a high BC, low recoil, and a welter of excellent projectiles available.
Many F class matches are won with this old cartridge, but invariably in well put-together target rifles, built on a variety of
actions, of which the Remington 700 is only one choice, but the Mausers with their long rear tang and bedding problems, are
seldom included.
And there is a world of difference between any "off the shelf " offering, including the Remington tactical rifles, Savages, and
such, and what can be achieved with some expert rifle construction and tuning on the same weapons.
Charles Owlen Picket June 30th, 2007, 10:55 AM

Unfortunately not much is said about breaking in a new barrel. There is reason to believe that proper break-in of a new barrel
is quite important for both longevity and baseline accuracy of a serious target weapon.
Many opinions exist on the method but generally today it is recognized that a break-in period, with proper cleaning of the
rifling, throat, & protection of the crown can be vital to most new rifles.
I built a rifle several months ago as a project with a beautiful Hirtenburger barrel, Timmney trigger, McMillan, 11 degree conical
crown, older Leupold, etc, etc. When she was finally finished I did a break-in that lasted for about three days and I deeply
believe it was worth it and appropriate for that level of weapon.
prespec June 30th, 2007, 10:34 PM

That is an excellent comment Charles, and one subject in which opinions vastly differ.
My personal preference is not to bother too much apart from avoiding "cooking" the barrel by rapid fire, and to observe a good
cleaning regime.
It also should be made clear I use only lapped , match grade barrels, and have had no evidence of copper fouling , apart
from a .30/404 wildcat , which drove 180 Matchkings at 3650 fps, and would deposit copper on the 3-groove barrel which was
visible to the unaided eye. This cartridge was a PITA, and the rifle has subsequently been re-barreled to a 308 Norma mag ,
and performs well.
But many serious competitors do a rigorous break in , and it certainly does no harm , and is really quite a good idea in mass-
produced barrels.
Machine-gunning rounds out of any barrel will eventually cause throat damage by heat cracking and shorten barrel life.
I have used Autosol paste to remove fouling. The abrasive in this will cut out copper and leave the barrel clean , if used
carefully. Simply wrap a patch around an undersize or worn bronze brush , and coat with Autosol, scrubbing back and forth
using a bore-guide, and the copper is easily removed.
The fire-lapping systems available may be useful for rough commercial barrels, but are totally uneccessary and possibly
detrimental to well made match barrels. Others will probably disagree, but that's just my opinion.
I see you went for the 11 degree crown. I have done quite a few of these , and they work as well as any other. The ideal crown
would simply be a truly smooth face at right angles to the bore, but this makes no provision for protection from cleaning gear
ferrules and other impacts on this critical area.
A good crown should have at least a chamfer to the depth of the grooves, and I like to use a Pope type crown with about a 50
thou. recess on rifles intended for field use , to guard against damage from the inevitable spills and bumps they encounter,
and apart from that , the shape is really a matter of preference.
The traditional round crown looks pretty but is difficult to cut precisely , and usually benefits from a secondary chamfer with a
sharp crowning tool which can be done, while still retaining the classic look.
It sounds like a nice rifle with good components, and should reward your care of the barrel. What cartridge did you go for , and
what is it's intended use?
BTW..the Timney triggers can be further improved by replacing the rear sear pin , which is quite loose , with a close fitting one.
They do this to allow clearance and re-setting with the military type striker tails , and these need to be modified to a straight-
bottom type on many actions. But if it works fine , leave it alone.
On the subject of trigger parts, these can be annealed to allow modification , and re-hardened with Kasenit to introduce more
carbon. I like to get a basic polish in the soft state, harden to about glass-hard....or when a file skips on the surface, then
finish off with a fine diamond hone in the direction of travel. Then use fine wet-dry on the inside of the trigger body and sides
of all moving parts, say 800 grit, and on the engaging surfaces. All the time avoiding rounding-off and getting out of square.
A felt marker is useful to determine contact areas.
A buffer can be used, but it is easy to round-off edges with these , and finally , just break the extreme edge of the contacting
surfaces with an extremely fine chamfer....a quick kiss with a diamond hone....to ensure reliability and reduce wear.
Charles Owlen Picket July 1st, 2007, 11:36 AM

I can see we share quite a bit in re: to parts set-up. I went with the 11 degree solely from the standpoint of protection as I too
believe that a straight crown is all that is truly needed but this will be a field rifle and may get some serious use.
And again on the Timmney: I know exactly of what you speak... I got shown that pin-slop some months back (seems
ridiculous in an add-on trigger that they would want anything but tight fitting pivots, etc.). The rifle is 7.62 NATO chamber that
a friend does as he has access to a very fine mil-reaming equipment. Pull is 1.25lbs and the older Leupold is a 10x. The sum
of the rifle is 12.5 lbs with everything (sling, loaded, etc). Barrel is called a heavy taper @ 26" and is surprisingly yieldy. It's a
keeper as I put an enormous amount of personal work into it and it's really set-up for me (I have long arms, etc).
prespec July 5th, 2007, 05:08 AM

Yep! But without that sloppy rear pin, they will not re-set on actions like M17, Mauser etc., and they are mainly designed as a
replacement trigger for military actions.
This is typical of firearms design , compromises must be made and Timney do a great job within the parameters that basicly
cater for "buy and fit" .They have to deal with a wide range of variables, and this is one way they do it.
The same applies to factory rifles. If they spent the time a good riflesmith could on them, and did all things that could be
done, they would cost a whole lot more than they do.
I have seen vast improvements in factory rifles and ammo in the past 35 years , and they are now cheaper than ever.
A working man can now buy a genuine MOA rifle ,and a good scope off the shelf , and feed it with ammo better than most can
handload, for about a weeks earnings, if he buys carefully.
This same performance in a factory rifle , ammo, would have been remarkable at one time, and cost a months earnings.
The one area one should never try to save money on is optics. There was some discussion of Tasco's earlier in the thread.
These have no place on a precision rifle, and there are many others in this category.
It is better to have a $200 rifle with a $1000 scope than the other way around. You can always sort the rifle out!
It always fascinates me how the same old myths reappear from time to time regarding rifles, accuracy , and how it is obtained.
Some of the manufacturers have much to answer for here, but it is not a mystical process and has a logic to it which is easily
understood.
I will happily start a new thread , detailing basic procedures for buying, sorting -out , and shooting available rifles , provided
there is enough interest from the members here.
BTW, Charles, what action did you build it on?
I hope the link below works....still figuring out computer tasks which any 12 year old would execute immediately...but this is
the sort of thing I build for fun.
It was a 223 with 3/4" H-bar and new gas gear, and is now a 204 and actually shoots better than I can. Last long kill was a
rabbit @ 350 yds , closely followed by a couple of magpies @ 265 and 280 when it was a 223. Also won a couple of any-rifle/
any-sight matches too. Green thing in front is a case catcher to get my nice Lapua brass back.
50gr Speer TNT doing about 3500 with 26.5 ADI BM2 out of a short 20" barrel...nothing exceptional, but still can out-shoot
most bolt guns.
Laser range-finders are necessary for this sort of thing. The 204 should give me another 100 yds.....we shall see.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n52/prespec/th_post-29-1091260218.jpg (http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n52/
prespec/post-29-1091260218.jpg)
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n52/prespec/th_Mini30009Medium.jpg (http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n52/
prespec/Mini30009Medium.jpg)
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n52/prespec/th_Mini30002Small.jpg (http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n52/prespec/
Mini30002Small.jpg)
Charles Owlen Picket July 6th, 2007, 10:43 AM

Parker-Hale action on that one - simply because I had it available and it was in new condition. I had thought of using Ruger
77 actions due to the low cost and frankly I don't see anything wrong with them if one is to clean-up the whole thing anyway...I
did have a mil large ring Mauser but it was not as nice from the start and I didn't want to do even MORE work especially
cosmetic stuff.
Did the suppressor have any effect of the cycling of the Ruger? Did you have to alter the gas vent?
prespec July 6th, 2007, 07:44 PM

The Parker-Hales are actually Santa Barbara actions made in Spain and have always been good. The Ruger 77's ,particularly in
the later series , are really good too after some tuning. Typical Ruger.... their stuff is well priced and works just fine.
The suppressors have no real effect on cycling and are very quiet. About the only down-side is their length and the tendancy of
propellant gases to evacuate back through the chamber when the bolt is held open on the last round. Regular chamber
brushing is necessary.
I make my own gas housings , some with gas adjustment , and these allow a 3/4" barrel straight through without a reduction
in diameter at the port, which is typical of conversions done using the original Ruger housing.
Real bad idea to step a barrel down and then back up in that way.
They also have four steel pillars to the receiver for bedding and the receiver is retained by 3mm cap srews making it
indepandant of the trigger assembly.
I believe this really helps with accuracy and zero retention.
Oddly enough , I designed this pillar system myself but later found there are a few smiths who have been doing the same
thing for a while, so can make no claim to it.
I guess good ideas suggest themselves.
I would sooner work on AR 15's and such , but licencing requirements make this a hassle and they cost more than I want to
pay.
The two rifles on the chair are a Mini-30 , chambered in a 22 wildcat on the 6.5 Carcano case , shortened to give a bit more
capacity than a 22 PPC 1-8" twist , and a 223 with an integral Picatinny rail set up to shoot 69-80grain pills , also 1-8".

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > about measurements
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View Full Version : about measurements
Al Capone S e p t e m b e r 7 th, 2001, 11:25 PM

Can anyone point m e to a site of measuremen ts of gauge and caliber equal to inch and CM ?
Anthony S e p t e m b e r 8 th, 2001, 08:06 PM

I dunno about guage/bore as it probably isn't a linear scale.
But calibre is already in inches/cm .
E.g
For imperial:
.22 = 0.22 inches 50cal = 0.5" or 1/2"
For m etric (even easier):

7 . 6 2 = 7 . 6 2 m m 5.56 = 5.56m m
T h e r e a r e 1 0 m m in 1cm
T h e r e a r e 2 5 .4m m i n o n e i n c h
Jumala S e p t e m b e r 8 th, 2001, 11:35 PM

Im not certain if it is what you mean but shotgun calibres like cal. 12 sa ys that 12 lead bullets (ball form) with the sam e
diam eter like the barrel have together a weight of 1 english pound.
Cal. 10 is larger then 12. Only 10 balls are nessesary for one pound. (larger balls)
Anthony S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2001, 07:36 PM

Yeah, that's how they m easure it, but I think that the scale is not linear. In that a 4bore is probably not twice the diam eter of
an 8bore.
BTW a 4 1 0 s h o t g u n i s n o t m e a s u r e d o n the sam e scale , it's actually the calibre, being 0.410 inche s.
EventHorizon S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2001, 12:54 AM

whats the specific gravity of lead, now figure, e.g, 10gauge, what size sphere would contain 1/10 of a pound of lead. Its late, I
m ay be off o n this. http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/frown.gif W ill check it in the morning.
or you could find a ch art...I may have one, I'll check.
IIR C , 1 2 g a u g e i s a r o u n d . 7 3 0 " for a 'bore' or 'cylinder' choke, le ss for mod, full, etc.
[edit]
11.34g/cc
1/[g u a g e # ] * ( 4 5 3 . 6 ) = g l e a d e a c h s p h e r e
[g lead each sphere]/11.34g/cc=cc per sphere
cc each sphere=4/3pi(r)^3 = radius of sphere, x2, = dia of sphe re, dia./2.54=decim a l m e a s u r e m e nt of sphere
10g = .7754
12g = .7294
16g = .6631
20g = .6156
28g = .5521
32g = .5264
I was bored...
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y E v e n t H o r i z o n (edited Septem ber 10, 2001).]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Climbing buildings made easy
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Fukineh December 13th, 2002, 12:07 AM

In the newspaper I recently found an article about how humans have created a way to climb smooth surfaces like spider man through a new technology which mimics the way
a gecko climbs walls :) . This could have many applications for people like us- the only problem being that if we can get hold of it in the future, so can everyone else <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> .
Here is an older article on the subject I just found on the Internet:
How Geckos StickNew Find May Lead to New Glue
Newswise/Science News
August 28, 2002
Geckos, nature's supreme climbers, can race up a polished glass wall at a meter per second and support their entire body weight from a wall with only a single toe. But the
gecko's remarkable climbing ability has remained a mystery since Artistotle first observed it in the fourth century B.C.
Now a team of biologists and engineers has cracked the molecular secrets of the gecko's unsurpassed sticking poweropening the door for engineers to f abricate
prototypes of synthetic gecko adhesive.
"Two millennia later, we have solved the puzzle of how geckos use millions of tiny foot hairs to adhere to even molecularly smooth surfaces such as polished glass," said Kellar
Autumn, lead author of an article in this week's Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Our new data prove once and for all how geckos stick."
Working at Lewis & Clark College, the University of California at Berkeley, the University of California at Santa Barbara, and Stanford University, the interdisciplinary team:
confirmed speculation that the gecko's amazing climbing ability depends on weak molecular attractive forces called van der Waals forces,
rejected a competing model based on the adhesion chemistry of water molecules, and
discovered that the gecko's adhesive depends on geometry, not surface chemistry. In other words, the size and shape of the tips of gecko foot hairsnot what they are
made ofdetermine the gecko's stickiness.
To verify its experimental and theoretical results, the gecko group then used its new data to fabricate prototype synthetic foot-hair tips from two different materials.
"Both artificial setal tips stuck as predicted," said Autumn, assistant professor of biology at Lewis & Clark College in Portland, Oregon. "Our initial prototypes open the door to
manufacturing the first biologically inspired dry, adhesive microstructures, which can have widespread applications."
The project required an interdisciplinary team, according to Autumn. Engineers Ronald Fearing and Metin Siiti at the University of California at Berkeley built prototype synthetic
gecko foot-hair tips that stick like the real thing. Engineer Jacob Israelachvili at the University of California at Santa Barbara provided the mathematics that led to the
prototype's design. Other team members include biologist Robert Full at the University of California at Berkeley and engineer Thomas Kenny of Stanford University.
Van der Waals Force versus Capillary Adhesion
The team tested two competing hypotheses: one based on van der Waals force and a second on capillary (water-based) adhesion.
"Our results provide the first direct experimental verification that a short-range molecular attraction called van der Waals force is definitely what makes geckos stick," Autumn
emphasizes.
Van der Waals forces, named after a Dutch physicist of the late 1800s, are weak electrodynamic forces that operate over very small distances but bond to nearly any material.
Geckos have millions of setaemicroscopic hairs on the bottom of their f eet. These tiny setae are only as long as two diameters of a human hair. That's 100 millionth of
a meter long. Each seta ends with 1,000 even tinier pads at the tip. These tips, called spatulae, are only 200 billionths of a meter widebelow the wavelength of visible
light.
"Intermolecular forces come into play because the gecko foot hairs split and allow a billion spatulae to increase surface density and come into close contact with the surface.
This creates a strong adhesive force," said Autumn.
A single seta can lift the weight of an ant. A million setae, which could easily fit onto the area of a dime, could lift a 45-pound child. If a gecko used all of its setae at the same
time, it could support 280 pounds.
"Our previous research suggested that van der Waals force could explain gecko adhesion. But we couldn't rule out water adsorption or some other types of water interaction.
With our new data, we can finally disprove a 30-year-old theory based on the adhesion of water molecules," Autumn said.
The team's previous research ruled out two other possible forms of adhesion: suction and chemical bonding.
Geometry versus Chemistry
"The van der Waals theory predicts we can enhance adhesionjust as nature hassimply by subdividing a surface into small protrusions to increase surface density,"
Autumn explained. "It also suggests that a possible design principle underlies the repeated, convergent evolution of dry adhesive microstructures in geckos, anoles, skinks, and
insects. Basically, Mother Nature is packing a whole bunch of tiny things into a given area."
If van der Waals adhesion determines setal force, then geometry and not the material make-up should dictate the design of setae, the team predicted.
Jacob Israelachvili at the University of California at Santa Barbara applied a mathematical modelthe Johnson-Kendall-R oberts theory of adhesionto predict the size and
shape of the setae.
Ronald Fearing at the University of California at Berkeley took the empirical results and nanofabricated synthetic foot-hair tips from two different materials.
"We confirmed it's geometry, not surface chemistry, that enables a gecko to support its entire body with a single toe," Autumn said.
"This means we don't need to mimic biology precisely," he explained. "We can apply the underlying principles and create a similar adhesive by breaking a surface into small
bumps. These preliminary physical models provide proof that humans can fabricate synthetic gecko adhesive," he said.
"The artificial foot-hair tip model opens the door to manufacturing dry, self-cleaning adhesive that works under water and in a vacuum," according to Autumn, who
foresees countless applications for synthetic gecko adhesivefrom vacuum areas of clean rooms to outer space.
>>>>>>> And to elite people of our society who are members of the E+W forum.
:p

We've talked about this about a 100 times, nice toy but to costly and slow.

There was a thread a while ago about a device that used vacuum pads hooked up to a belt worn pump that allowed the wearer to climb up smooth surfaces. I like the idea of
a dry, non-mechanical, means of adhering to a surface. Though it'd take major balls to try climbing a building with these without any safety ropes or such.
Well, now that they've come up with fake gecko stick, how long till they come up with an anti-gecko coating? Can a gecko stick to glass, even if it's coated with oil?
True, I would not want to climb anything really high with those unless I'm sure that they will never fail- which seems doubtful. You could always find routes that are navigable
by free climbers and boulder your way up with the gloves as a backup (this would mean dinos, a method of reaching a distant hold by launching yourself and gaining air, may
not be a good idea), and only rely 100% on you "gecko gloves and shoes" when you have no other choice.
Oh and A bomb, this is a not the vacume pad method. As NBK said it's a system that uses tiny hairs to grip surfaces. This could enable us to literally climb like geckos and
scramble up walls with no clunky devices like giant suction cups or magnets.

why wear gloves when you could just pay some Bioengineer to engineer a retro virus to change your DNA structure adn grow your own stiky hairs? this is a bit far fetched
butgiven how fast our technolegy is advancing it might not be all that difficult in 20 years
PYRO500 December 13th, 2002, 09:23 PM

What the hell? your fingerprints aren't determined by your DNA... Anyways I don't think in 20 years we'll have mastered DNA manipulation... even if so... I doubt you'll ever be
able to develop into a "gecko man".

I could see some horrible consequences to having geckco hands.
EVERYTHING you touch sticks to your hands. You have to shake loose, or pry off, anything you touch. What a hassle.
Also, humans aren't built for climbing. You'd get tired very quickly trying to pull yourself up geckco fashion. Rather, I'd want a framework that I could strap into that would use
power augmentation to make climbing easy.
Also, how often do geckcos fall off of things? Hmm...that could be something to think about.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Anti-Piggy Door Ram Stopper
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nbk2000 July 29th, 2001, 07:38 AM

I was wandering the aisles of Wally-Mart when I saw this:
http://www.protekdoor.com/Img01.jpg
At their website www.protekdoor.com (http://www.protekdoor.com) they have a video showing piggies kicking a door and using
one of their rams on it, without success.
Of course, much testing would be nessecary to verify these claims, but it does lead to some interesting ideas.
I would install 2 of them, top and bottom, using carrige bolts inserted into the door, instead of relying on the obvious target of
the door knob. Plus a full length door hinge instead of the usual two or three. Oh, and a solid wood or steel door instead of
the usual hollow core.
They would eventually catch on and stick something in the gap to keep the door open and then cut through the elastic, but
that would take time. Time they don't have since AP bullets should be flying through the walls by then.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Predator July 29th, 2001, 11:26 AM

Better still, how about that swat-stopper thing I drew a while back.. it's basically a mortar in place of the door stop. The swat/
police kick in the door and boom http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Pyroboy July 29th, 2001, 12:09 PM

I think it would take a lot of balls to set something like that SWAT stop up. Because if you fuck a few cops up and the rest
catch you they'll fuck you up!
Heavy Recoil July 29th, 2001, 01:13 PM

I had an idea of the door would open into a L shaped hall. they break the door at the top, and rush in, turn the corner, kick
the door at the bottom, and boom. not a bomb, which may kill you, but a pnematic cannon with a barrel filled with petrol or
another vaper flamible liquid, and a way to ignight it. burns would be horrorble, but all the air is burned away,too. the true
door is under the welcome mat, so if they are watching you,you will go thru that entry. you would escape thru a tunnel to an
apartment/sewer/be creative, pushing a button that activates the ammona/clorine/be creative posion gas generators, or an
explosive or incendeary device, its an idea
richl261 July 29th, 2001, 03:33 PM

yeah, its a good idea if they dont have the door frame widener tool...
Anthony July 29th, 2001, 03:59 PM

Looks like a good idea, you could but a metalic sheath over the rubber to stop it being cut.
I thought the police had started using those hydraulic door openers now? They spread to grip/spread the frame then a forward
facing ram pushes against the door.
Only way to beat one of those would be to simply make your door frame a shallow angle.
nbk2000 July 29th, 2001, 09:32 PM

The hydra-force door jamb spreader wrks by forcing the jamb far enough away from the door that the lock bolts can swing clear
of it.
But that wouldn't work with this because the straps would just get even tighter, and they're not in the center, rather at the top
and bottom of the door, where the frame is strongest.
Also, the SWAT stopper wouldn't work if they shot out or rammed the hinges as they sometimes do, because it wouldn't then
be hit by the door. That's why you need a full length door hinge, to render that tactic impossible.
The hallway idea, would you be thinking of something like this?

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/killzonetop.GIF
------------------
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited July 29, 2001).]
PYRO500 July 30th, 2001, 01:28 AM
someone who is good with a hooligan tool (a forced entry tool often used by firemen) will probably just rip off the thing if not
the bolts that hold it in the wall stud first.
Machiavelli August 1st, 2001, 01:31 PM

Very cute how some here want to defend themselves against these annoying day-to-day swat raids.
Unfortunately, even if you can put some bullets in a trooper or one or two run into your swat stopper, what have you won?
Oh yes, you've defended your little castle and you've frightened them away.
So swat won't come near you.

They'll wait outside.
They have unlimited supplies of water, food, electricity, ammo, information, ...
You don't
You'll give up sooner or later.
So anyone here thinking about static defense, forget it.
The protekdoor might buy you some time to burn documents, throw some cds in the microwave and destroy some evidence.
If you have taken preparations for this event this might suffice to clean your area.
If you've taken good flight preparations this might also be the moment for it.
The swat stopper and and the hallway wil probably get you booked as DOA. Especially US swats (or swats in other repressive
regimes) have the tendency to consist of very unscrupulous operators, if you shoot at them with AP bullets, they'll lob a few
grenades vaguely in your direction and collect the remains as evidence.
If you don't belive my words you might want to ask members of MOVE. Their compound was bombed with thermite, women
and children who ran outside were machinegunned down by philadelphia police.
The red stripes on the flag were always painted with blood.
If swat comes, you have to go, simple as that. Try to create chaos and diversion so you can escape.
-They're not the only ones who have access to flashbangs and smoke bombs.
-Radios often don't work that good in buildings. Especially if someone tries to jam them. No need to get sophisticated, a
motor with worn out coal brushes or jacobs ladder driven by a cheap HV transformator and rigged up to an antenna should be
enough.
-If someone is wearing a fully propped up assault vest, weapons, body armor and a dumb looking helmet he/she/it is a
dangerous opponent in close combat. And no match for you when it comes to running. The feet might be mightier than the fist
-See them coming. Swat doesn't just arrive on the scene and storm the building. They need surveillance and reconnaisance,
especially when it comes to raids. Maybe you or your friends will notice something uncommon in your area. Maybe you've
looked at your area before in terms of "where could I suddenly disappear, where can I hide out for a short while?". Your
options increase a lot if you're good at nondestructive entry.
Even flight tunnels have worked from time to time.
Maybe some of you want to stay in place to fight like real men (=die like dumbasses) and take some troopers with them.
Consider that it might be more fun to shoot them in the back than to face them upstraight.
mark August 1st, 2001, 05:18 PM

I personaly think this whole thing is an asinine idea. Your fucked if you start slainng swat teams. Your best defense would be
having confetti falling from the sealing like a supermarket givaway. Youll look like a lunatic, not a mad man.
Im personalynot expecting the swat team any time soon. Hydrogen balloons and fire crackers usualy dont warrent a raid.

"Hydrogen balloons and fire crackers usualy dont warrent a raid."
They can!
mark August 1st, 2001, 07:57 PM

Im probobly last on the feds list.
Machiavelli August 2nd, 2001, 11:23 AM

Maybe at the moment. But remember, your living in the USA, the country whose army and police trained forces in Nicaragua, El
Salvador, Honduras, Guetemala, Peru, Laos, Israel, Indonesia, Columbia, Miami, Panama, etc (it's difficult to remember every
country on the list) to rape, torture, slaughter and rob civilians.
So why shouldn't they do it at home?
So just stay quiet, say yes to everything, don't question anything and try not to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Try not write anything critical. Using your constitutional rights too much might be bad for your health.
mark August 2nd, 2001, 03:38 PM

Quote:
So why shouldn't they do it at home?
Because home is a rich white comunity!
Machiavelli August 3rd, 2001, 01:50 PM

So it's safe for rich white people.
This hasn't stopped municipal police departments to cooperate with the FBI on the assasinations of black panther leaders, it
didn't help to provide safety for poor blacks whose homes and churches got bombed by fascists whose organizations were
staffed from top to the very bottom with police informers, it didn't keep the CIA from pumping crack into the gettoes, it didn't
help the crispy Davidians and it won't help the white underclass when racism isn't enough of a pressure release anymore and
they'll start doing something about real problems.
And start to step on rich and powerful toes.
If you take a look at American history you'll see that you need to give people just a little bit of money, power or at least the
illusion of it, add to that some simple ideologies and propaganda and they'll volunteer to shoot at their fellow citizens.
-Onthefringe- August 4th, 2001, 05:46 AM

a not too old news story (quoting from memory here)"
A recent drug house raid was foiled by an innovative entry hall design, which consisted of a concrete block wall build to create a
vestibule over the main entrance (the side door was completely walled in). The block wall was built so closely to the main door
that it could not open fully, leaving a gap of only 14" when it was open. The dealer using this house was a thin black male
capable of squeezing into the gap. when the police did raid the house it took them some time to bash the door open (it was a
solid core steel door). Once open they were not able to squeeze any of their fat asses through the gap (my editorial
comment), eventually relying on an suv and cable to pull the door completely from the frame. Some cops still couldn't fit
through the gap between the wall and the block wall, instead climbing through a window once the bars were removed from
them (by the same hook/suv) By the time this was completed and they gained entrance, a lone black male, the only
occupant, sat nude in the middle of the living room. All signs of drug activity had been obliterated. His clothes were dumped
into the washing machine to remove any trace of drugs.
Things the cops did wrong:

Drugs were never kept in the house, but were delivered to the rear from another home - they failed to notice this.
Drugs were sold to buyers thru the main steel reinforced door by a lone seller, with no incriminating evidence left in the
residence beyond the initial sale (money wes removed the same route the drugs came in).
Police never installed a sewer trap prior to the raid - soe drugs may have been flushed while the police dealt with the door.
Booby trapped door provided the perp ample time to remove even the faintest traces of drug activity.
Home was abandoned. The dealers were actually maintaining it and paying the property taxes. And in this neighborhood
neighbors don't ask questions.
May not help you if you're maintaining a chem lab in your house, but does offer some lessons here. No evidnece - no charges.
Mick August 4th, 2001, 08:00 AM

LOL...just readin that "protek door" thing
Designed by B-2 Stealth engineer


does that mean when someone tries to kick in your door, the door will go into stealth mode, and bomb the intruder?
http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif
Machiavelli August 4th, 2001, 11:57 AM

Maybe it means that it's designed in a way that an attacker ramming the door won't notice it.

Hell just whatever get in SWATs way and makes them nervous. Even little things like marbles and snap and pops on the floor
will break there concentrion. That may sound KEWL but remember these pycho freaks are hyped up adrenline junkies. If one
slips or something pops on the floor all hell will break lose. Then if you put tight obstcales to get in there way. Also thick
curtains in the hallway will hurt there ablity to throw flash bangs. If you are good at sewing sew some elastic in the curtain to
bounce it back and you would be able to use a thiner see though curtain. Plus unlike booby traps this stuff is legal atleast
where I live. Just think if you were running through a house watching everything what would make your life miserable. Also if
you live in the Ghetto I here one of the worst things to a SWAT officers is if they see toys in the yard because the don't wanna
blow away any children.
Maddoc August 4th, 2001, 07:44 PM

For some good views of cop tactics just watch the "COPS - Too Hot for TV" videos, I have all of them and I'll make some MPG
clips up and post them when I get back from vacation in 3 weeks.
------------------
Anthony August 4th, 2001, 09:42 PM

"Designed by B-2 Stealth engineer"
Goes from making super high tech military war machines to designing over-sized elastic bands... Maybe it was his fault you
can see stealth bombers in the rainhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif
BoB- August 5th, 2001, 12:48 AM

AR-15 man, Its been rumored that the Waco disaster was caused by a Federal Agent accidently shooting himself in the leg.
Snap-pops might make itchy trigger fingers.

That is the whole point. Because you could prove they started shooting first. And you need to make these bastards work. You
need to jump their nerves as much as you can. That will give you such an advantage. Remember most SWAT guys don't have
a lot of stress training like real anti-terriost teams. And if the SWAT team leader has smarts and they start stepping on stuff
like that he is more than likely to call the mission off. But if he is a dumbass hotshit he will go on and get a lot of his men
killed. Also this may sound KEWL again but you know those billy bass things that sing. Since they move and you had them on
the wall in a lowlight situation that would make a SWAT guy even more stressed out. And if you have hard wood floors add
about a cm of polish to make them slip. I know that makes it sound like home alone bullshit but you whole purpose is to
delay and stress these guys out. Those party flasher if you could make those automated would cause a lot of stress in your
favor to these guys. Just do everything you can to fuck with these guys you will win. If they get the element of suprise you will
lose. And if you get in a stand off just surrender after you destoryed all the evidence.
AmonDin August 7th, 2001, 09:59 PM

Some simple rules:
Don't have a gun in the house you can't account for with the proper permits and liscenses.
Don't have drugs in the house, or if you do, keep them near a bathroom so you can flush it all if nescessary.
Obstruct all entrances to your house in any way you can. Swat teams don't just come in through the front door, they come in
through all of the doors, windows too.
Don't shoot the police unless you plan on dying horribly.
Have several escape routes ready, and check them for signs of tampering or surveillence regularly.
Always destroy evidence first, THEN concentrate on escape, not the other way around.
Always avoid arrest if you can, this may sound cliche: But they do have ways of making you talk, they are varied and brutal.
If you have no way of escape, surrender as soon as you have destroyed the evidence. Then get a lawyer on the horn as soon
as you possibly can. Have him/her with you at all times. They won't try anything wholly illegal (torture) with a witness hanging
around.
Time is always key, delay as much as you can.
I'm absolutly sure these have been written before, so don't bitch at me for being unoriginal. If it works, use it. Note that most
of this is contingent on you owning your own place, unless you don't mind pissing off your landlord. It's also pretty frickin hard
for a minor to get a gun (outside of the ghetto) in the first place, so don't worry about it..... umm, I can't think of a witty and
fun way to close this out.... go sig!
------------------
"When all else fails, just light their things on fire, people hate that..." - Fred

You are right you shouldn't try to shoot the police....oh yea you are wrong a minor can own any weapon as long as it isn't NFA.
Well, in the US. A Minor can legally buy a rifle or shotgun in a private sale and a handgun can a be a gift. But very few private
sellers would sell to a minor without a parent. Oh yea a minor can't buy an assualt weapon without parental consent and when
you have it you must either be target shooting or using it in the coarse of hunting or your work at a farm. Sometimes people
watch movies to much and think those are the laws. But remeber to get a lawyer fast. The BATF has tried to say loose muffler
pipe and washer in people's garages even though they were seprate and not attempt to weld them together as "silencer in
contrution"
Foodos August 8th, 2001, 05:14 PM

Since this thread is based on the swat coming after you (basically) if you were preparing for an all out assault, ie: you are
going to kill them all, or you want to cause damage as you run, then you could use some claymores.
Set up the claymore in the Makeshift arsenal with AP putty and ball bearings, set it up in front of all possible doors, use the
pull-firecracker setup by running the string across the door, passing through a angler (like a eye-screw on the wall with the
claymore) so it will be detonated if the door is slammed open, so as the door bursts open three swat rush through and get a
huge burst of spherical shrapenel.
Windows would have to be manual, or maybe some fishing wire setup (so its harder to see) and maybe run across in a net
fashion so there is no screw up.
The problem with swat is that they normally attack from every possible angle, so an escape is extremely difficult unless you
have an escape planned out through a unforseeable rout, like a underground escape hole/hallway out into the city
somewhere. Another problem is of course arming the devices, if swat comes after you, normally you are not going to have any
warning (unless its a warrant serving), so the claymore thing might only be plausible if you are having a 6-12 hr standoff with
the regular police joes.
I think the best idea would be NBK's full-hinge solid wood door with the 'catchers' from walmart on top, bottom, maybe even
the middle. A few shotgun 1oz slugs through any door could take out a couple of swat as they tried to break through that
barrier.
zaibatsu August 8th, 2001, 08:10 PM

Couldn't you use a reed switch type setup used on burglar alarms to activate a timer. So, the cops could blow/smash open a
window, give it 3-4 secs, so that they get in, and then set the claymores off. Basically though, I think the general opinion is
that if you try to fight the SWAT teams you will die.
simply RED August 8th, 2001, 08:21 PM

You will know when the police are attacking, just hear the queeeeeakkkk.
CragHack August 8th, 2001, 11:23 PM

i wouldn't use the door stop, or the narrow hallway as a means to fight the swat teams, i would use it as a delay of sorts so
you can get away easier. If you are going to use a house for an extended period of time, make sure it has a basement, dig a
tunnel to a secluded spot so if the feds come knocking you can easily get away.
------------------
"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
Foodos August 10th, 2001, 03:41 AM

zaibatsu its more of a fact for the non-tactical elite, I guess. They are an extremely well trained group, if you ever watch the
discovery/tlc channel or even fox with specials on criminal standoffs the criminlas are normally fine, as in not in any danger so
far of being killed/captured by basic police. Its when the SWAT come in that they get there asses kicked, one fine example is
the 20 min+ shootout between TWO men and the LAPD in the bank robbery shootout, but when the SWAT team shows up they
are taken out in about 2-3 minutes (if I remmembered that correctly).
I don't think its very plausible to fight off, or destroy the SWAT team in your own home, or especially by yourself unless you
had a long time for setup.
[This message has been edited by Foodos (edited August 10, 2001).]
nbk2000 August 19th, 2001, 05:38 AM

Claymores INSIDE the house? Even I wouldn't risk that. Outside though would be a different matter.
To arm whatever defenses you have, there should be a cord attached to a switch, that runs around the perimeter of every
room near the ceiling. Then, if ever attacked, just go to the nearest wall (no more than a few feet in any average house) and
pull the cord. This assumes no small children or idiots.
The pull cord should explode smoke bombs and set off screechers in every room, but no lethal weapons for obvious reasons.
The smoke will blind enemies who, being unfamiliar with the layout, will be stumbling and groping about, while the screechers
covers the sound of your movements, making aiming and shooting at your sounds impossible.
Only once you're safely enclosed in your bunker bed (forthcoming in NBK2000 V.2) would you then arm any lethal weapons.
A possible idea would be to have a PVC pipe running along the base of the wall outside where the piggies would line up prior
to their assualt. There's a tube of polyethylene running inside the PVC pipe, with the gap filled with nails and other shrapnel.
The poly tubing leads to a solenoid valve (like for sprinklers) that controls the flow of a binary liquid explosive. The end
farthest from the explosive has the detonator.
If attacked, when the signal is sent, the solenoid opens, the liquid explosive is mixed and armed, fills the tubing, and after a
float switch inside the liquid storage tank reachs bottom (empty) the detonator goes off, exploding the tubing and spraying
the area outside with shrapnel.
This has the advantage that there's no explosive present in the weapon until just a few seconds before detonation, leaving it
safe at all other times. I suppose you could even use it inside the house, only with some kind of siren that gives you a few
seconds warning in case of accidential arming.
To cover an escape, a hedgehog projector would be a good idea to have. These are simply mortar projectors made from pipe,
welded onto a steel base or cast into a concrete block, which point out in every direction. They are loaded with smoke and tear
gas grenades, and are launched by black powder charges electrically initiated.
When set off, it'll project the grenades in a circle around your area. 50 to 100 yards is enough. The smoke blinds the pig
snipers so they can't shoot you, the tear gas (although I'd go with a vomiting agent like DM instead) forces the piggies to
retreat or mask, which most pigs aren't going to have.
After you've effected your escape, there's nothing to prevent a prerecorded rant from being broadcast over a PA saying
something like "Fucking pigs, I ain't going back to prison, I'd rather die! Burn, baby, BURN!" At which time a big fireball
explodes inside the building you were just in, but the pigs think you killed yourself. In the confusion you've bought time.
Passive defenses are good too. Thorn bushes of every variety can be planted in THICK layers around your house, with barbed
wire tresles for them to grow on. The wire prevents them from being torn out or cut away easily.
Cyclone fencing can be found for free anywhere you happen to have a pair of bolt cutters with you. http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif A section of this attached on the inside of a window, with the curtains between the
window and the fencing, prevents piggies from entering or throwing anything inside. Especially since they won't even know it's
there beforehand.
Screws can be driven into the edging around windows, and have the heads cut off with bolt cutters. This leaves a circle of
jagged metal points around the window frame that can't be pulled out or bent over. Anyone trying to climb through is going to
impale their hands.
Cheap window laminate film prevents "break and rake", where they break the window, rake out the pieces from the frame, and
then enter.
If you had a really rural setup, you could have a large above ground irrigation pond filled with water. The berm containing it
could have a cratering charge inside that, when detonated, would open a huge breach in the berm, releasing all the water to
flood the low lying area surrounding your house.
If it didn't drown them outright, it would at least greatly complicate their attack, having to wade through several feet of mud
and debris just to get to your house, or rather away from it as you're shooting them down.
The hallway is another passive design that allows for either armed resistance or passive fleeing.
See the wiggly line between attacker and defender? That's cyclone fencing, to prevent dog or grenade from entering. Just
didn't have room to include a description in the illustration.
As for the feasability of one man repelling a SWAT attack, it can and has been done. There was one white power man who was
surrounded by the piggies up in idaho or montana. He repelled THREE attacks by the pigs, killing several. They finally had to
burn down the house to get him out, but he was already gone! Escaped through a tunnel to a creek.
They found him months later, but point is that it is possible.
-Onthefringe-, if you could find a copy of that story with the hallway, I'd appreciate it. It'd be nice to have a real life example I
could quote in my PDF article about it.
I do remember seeing on COPS once how the cops went to raid some dope dealers house, and when they entered they saw
fishing line running from the doors they had just entered (OPPS!) and heard a hissing sound.
Needless to say these little piggies ran scared. They called the bomb squad who didn't enter, just waited an hour or so, then
they went in.
Turns out dude had a box under the kitchen sink hooked up to the water supply. When the cops entered, the fishing line
triggered a solenoid valve that turned on the water to the box, flushing any dope down the drain. No dope, no case. Score on
for the bad guy.
Remember, anything you do should be in proportion to the time you'll do if captured. Explosives and drowning traps are for
death row candidates, smoke bombs and marbles are for car theft and shit like that.
All of these tricks are things that the cops aren't expecting since they've never ran into someone preparing like this. And as
the RTPB #51 says;
"Police operate by knowing the pattern of criminal behavior. If you don't fit the pattern, you are that much harder to catch".
------------------

Well, as I don't have the "SWAT" where I live, the only kind of special forces we have is either the Armed Police Response Unit
(SO19 Special Operations Unit 19) Or The SAS (Special Air Service), I woulden't want to take on either. But, I have a picture of
the Hooligan Bar someone was talking about, in use by the SAS.
<center>
http://www.angelfire.com/linux/thevictim/images/hooliganbar.GIF</center>
------------------
Mr Cool August 19th, 2001, 05:29 PM

No, I wouldn't want to take on the SAS. They're fvcking hard.
I heard a rumour that my second great step cousin or some super-distant relative like that was in the SAS, he's dead now so I
can't ask him but I must find out if it's true. I doubt it, but you never know...
P.S. - I do know that he was in the army.
[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited August 19, 2001).]
nbk2000 August 20th, 2001, 05:21 AM

The picture shows them using the "break and rake" technique.
Fingerless September 6th, 2001, 07:50 PM

Good ideas, NBK! And, yes, SWAT can be beat if you aren't an ill prepared sorry fuck. The best candidates to survive SWAT
attacks are: Extremely paranoid, intelligent, loners, really hate the govt, well prepared, weapons experts etc. I'd like to have a
nice tunnel dug, large enough for running, accessible from a few inconspicuous spots in the house-maybe a central door in the
flooring that when it is opened, can be securely fastened down to resist opening. Down below would be an electrical switch.
When flicked on this would allow voltage to travel through the system which would be hooked up to several containers,
whatever you want, filled with ANNM.(I'm sure several 30 pound propane cylinders full would do quite nicely) (Or some other
explosive you can make, you get the idea) the electrical current would flow into the blasing cap, setting off the cap detonating
the ANNM. Around these containers of ANNM would be shrapnel of nails, ball bearings, etc. wrapped around it with a piece of
cloth or blanket to hold it in place. When these detonate the pigs are gonna wish they would have never came in-perhaps put
a 30 pound cylinder of it at every entrance possible, and one in the middle of the room. Cover them up with furniture, tables,
blankets, etc. LOL I know I'm overdoing it on the explosives, how about one central 55 gallon drum instead? Not so obvious,
you could stasha couple in a closet. Putting metal bracing/screen over windows is a damn good idea. Also, dogs are wonderful!
They seem to have a sixth sense as to someone is coming, they could tell way before a human could. Cheaper than a
surveillance system. A fire resistant house would also be a plus, steel framing and concrete, which would also be very strong.
Theyd have to ignite your belongings to get you out, which would be inside, and when they start busting in you taket he door
out and detonate the explosives.
You can always convince a friend or two to lay in ghillie suits a mile away with .50 BMG's and snipe em out one by one.....
Heavy Recoil September 6th, 2001, 08:34 PM

Some Exerps from assaultweb.net:
Ladies & Gents,
In light of the most recent situation I feel it is necessary to discuss some factors to help negate an illegal search warrant.
Any other knowledge here is welcome. LEOs jump in!
Please bear in mind that this is strictly from my experiances.
1. Serving the warrant - Generally "they" will stage in an area not to far from the target house - usually a space open enough
for several cars to fit. An ambulance may or may not be present in the area.
several police cars and an ambulance is to be construed as something is about to happen.
Arrival at target house - LE will have observed everything from the outside, if practical. They will try to ascertain the location of
all exits, and post people there to cover them. Be aware of this. Have an alternative way out of your home, preferably known
only to you and NOT visable from the outside.
A knock, may or may not be given. Generally a battering ram is used. Do not put a security iron bar door on your home -
stealth is your ally.
They do not know how sturdy your door may be, and most doors are very flimsy, so this is what they will count on.
Your defense - Have an angle iron frame installed with LONG (6" to 10") lag bolts every 6 inches minimum into the studs of
the wall through the frame. The frame is what gives 90% of the time. If possible, have a heavy wood door installed with a
steel backing plate(at least 1/4"thick), visible only to you. Bolt on the hinges, or weld them on. I suggest using 5 or more
hinges, industrial grade steel.
Also - a mail slot here is a huge tactical advantage.
Install three dead bolts - one high, one low, and one above the door knob, use the type that are only visable to you from the
inside, and one in the top center of the door.(non-key type except the one above the knob) A "2x4" board across the back in
brackets would'nt hurt either....
Get a good standard door knob set, preferably steel. Try to stay away from ornate or brass sets.
Next - windows. If possible, they can and will use a window entry, if all else fails. Plant rose bushes by the dozens infront and
close to low lying windows. If possible have thick plexiglass panels cut for an aluminum frame and install them. Window
security bars are a good idea to keep bodies out of the windows.
The plexi should stop any tear gas rounds from getting in. Another route is to install the type of metal screening commonly
used in rabbit cages on the inside of the windows, and tint the windows so no one can see inside.
Roof - Reroof with a NON-flammible tile/shingle. Slate, tin/steel, concrete, and ceramic tile are good choices.
Siding - same. Aluminum or steel siding or brick(preferably).

Install a sprinkler system, and a high powered vent system (attic fan) to suck out any gases that get inside the house. This
can even be set up on solar energy with a battery backup.
Set up a "safe" room, fortify it if possible.
While they are stimyed out front - this is your best tactical opportunity - either go offensive or use your hidden escape route to
get out.
Have a gas mask and fire extinguisher readily available.
Once harm has been inflicted upon them, and they see that their tactics are not working, they will back off and SEAL the
perimeter. Your chance for escape just got worse. Have your communications on and ready (FRS or HAM) and be prepared for
a rescue mission (we hope...).
Do not expose yourself to them, they will have a SWAT team in place complete with sharpshooters. Anything short of outside
intervention or you having an armored car most likely means you are trapped.
Have a defensive weapon within easy reach, and stash ammo and mags throughout the house, in accessable areas.
If you do get away, don't forget you have to have a little dough and stash to get you by. Well placed caches are a necessity.
Not 1, not 2, but several. Don't dig them all up, use them as you need them.
its a bit extravagant, but a claymore door might be an interesting idea. a pressure sensitive wooden panel in front of a steel
door, hooked to a decent amount of explosives, solidox or whatever, with shot glued to the wooden panel. WHen the door is
kicked, it kicks back.
OK, everything sounds fine except one small problem. We are making our houses into castles. How long can you hold, in
the medieval ages this wo rked because fellow knights would come to your rescue. We don t have that, if you hold, you just
hold until they talk you out, our burn you out. Either way you lost. We need to figure a way to counterattack. When they hit,
and you repeal them, you need the ability to counterattack and wipe them. That way when the reinforcements show up there is
nothing left?
Ideal, would be for all the fellow patriots to come to the aid. If the Feds found themselves cut off and surrounded with there
lines of communication cut, the situation would be reversed. Much like the British found at Lexington and Concord. But, since
no one is willing to get off of the couch this isn t going to h appen.
So, how can we counterattack for our own home? First off we need the ability to inflict massive casualties on the enemy. This
taking out only a few isn t work ing, we need it to be co stly, we need to make the government pay for their actions; we need
to inflict massive amounts of damage and casualties. Even collateral damage has its place. Then we need a way to spread the
word, the sheeple need to be told why, this happened.
I posted this reply to the thread about incindiaries but seems appropriate here too. There is prep type work involved in
defeating gas attacks that they WILL use ince resistence is encountered. Enjoy!
Originally from Mike Kemp. Mike is a demolitions expert and his advise should be considered reliable.
Begin--->
Well, here goes. Tear gas, CS and CN, are typically chemicals imbedded in
*smoke mix* or *pyro mix*... smoke grenade material. They are
launched/thrown, and a few seconds later, *go off*, or *function*-- begin to
smoke when the mix inside the case begins to burn... yes, burn. The chemical
precipitates on the smoke, which is composed of nothing more than soot
particles.
I will speak to a condition in a house/building.
If you suspect that you may receive a visit, you can be prepared. Heavy
chicken wire over the windows may well prevent their entry. This can be
attached to a frame and secured inside the structure, not in plain view from
outside. SURPRISE!
On the inside, you will need a pair of gloves, or a ready-rag or something

to prevent burning your hands. Thin deerskin leather makes the best thin,
rough-duty gloves I've seen. Cloth/fabric *work* gloves or anything else
will work.
Sodium or calcium hypochlorite (*bleach*) *kills* the CS/CN. Chemically

discombobulates it. It can be purchased fairly cheaply in bulk, powder
form... go to your local swimming pool store. Strategically place a few
5-gallon METAL buckets around the house, with lids, and put a quart or so
dry bleach in each bucket. Leave the lid on, but loose. If you have time,
even a minute or two, fill the buckets about 2/3 with water in the bath tub
and quickly stir up the bleach, leaving the lid nearby, handy.
When your visitors offer their hostess gifts, snatch them up and drop them
in the buckets. Put the lids on, but loose. They will now be unable to start
a fire (which they often otherwise do), their smoke will be largely
contained, and it will be largely *neutralized* of their noxious chemical.
You don't use the plastic buckets because the hot grenade will melt right
through... and the smoke mix doesn't need air to burn, so once ignited,
dunking it will not automatically extinguish it. And the smoke grenades will
occasionally burn so fast anyway that they will *pop* the case, bursting or
splitting it because it produces gas so quickly it overpressures the case,
which fails. This tendency will be made worse, made more likely by
submergence, because it puts a back pressure on the grenade case where the
gas is being generated. The metal bucket will also help contain the pressure
surge much better than plastic. If the grenade does *pop*, the pressure wave
will likely propel much of the liquid from the bucket, but by that time you
have largely contained their effect, anyway.
Keep a BIG jar of vaseline handy, and cover all exposed skin, extending
under the edges of clothing.
While bleach solution *kills* CS/CN, vinegar *dissolves* it... but doesn't
kill it. While this suggestion may not be popular, it beats breathing the
stuff-- keep several *bandana* rags around, and make them where there are
several layers of fairly thin cloth... old sheets are excellent, for you can
cut strips long and wide enough to be folded to give multiple layers, and
have a long length suitable for wrapping around and tying. Saturate the
bandana with vinegar, and tie it on. This makes for nasty breathing, but it
will also capture and dissolve a sizeable percentage of the active
ingredient in the tear gas smoke, making it at least possible to breathe. If
they become saturated with smoke (if you have to stay in the atmosphere for
a while), just pitch the old one and tie on another.
I cant think of a soft body armor that will stop a full power rifle round. The trama plates will stop most. If they are stacked up
outside the door, along the wall, fire thru the wall with a 308 and walk down the wall. A full auto FAL or G3 would be great for
this. If the wife had one too, that would be even better!
I guess I am lucky, I had a say in how the house was built. On either side of the main entry doors, front and rear, there are 3"
wide 1/8th thick steel strips that are bolted there to help keep the door latch and hinges from being smashed out. The wife
was a pain in the ass about it, but once I explained the security benefits of it she was happy about it, plus it didn't cost me
anything for the steel or extra to have the framers work around it. You can just see it between the door frame and the trim
inside. The door bell is tied into the phone systems so I can talk to who ever is at the door from the phones, and there is a
camera in the door bow, and an IR/day light that looks down the porch. I picked up the whole system in a company auction of
trade in's and overstocks for about $400. I haven't finished programing the auto patch so that it will display in PIP on the TV's
yet, but it IR is also tied into a motion detector. The phones and security systems are all on a 48hour backup battery in the
vault(with all the construction in the area power outages are common. Well, thats the story I used on Meg).
If anyone is interested in a security camera systems that will display on PIP drop me a line. I can get the components at cost
as we sell tons of this stuff. You may need to do some major re-wiring on existing structures, and that can be a pain.
Replace inside hollow doors with solid wood and deadbolt or latch on the high side. about 6 inches from the top. This will allow
the door to "give" considerable without failing. It is also a good idea to latch/bolt
all exterior doors in like fashion.
SEE ABOVE THREAD FOR JAMB PROTECTION ON DOORS
All chimmny's should have chichen wire setup

about 36 inches down from the mouth on the roof. This will keep all nasties out. Yet be far enough down that when the gas
backfires and starts to plume across the roof top it will be unretrievable. Making the oposeing force deal with it instead of the
intended target.
Keep all outbuilding secured whenever possible. The less cover they have the better.
You really don't want uninvited guests in the top of your garage anyways. They would have the high ground.
For those that live in the country gates on the driveway. barbwire and chicken fence.
It really doesn't look out of place in rural america.
Dogs, both large and small.

Dogs work best this way (in teams)the little ones are nothing more that a early warning systems while the bigger ones make
good intimidation tools.
Invest in good anti fire devices.

Next time you replace your carpet get the NON-flamable NOT the flame retardant.
The non-flaminble will still burn but the heat must be much more intense.
Same goes with your furniture/drapes.
Also a sprikler system and fire exstinguishers.

If you have power you could also flood the sinks, tubs, and unhook the washer and let it flow.
(After all, we know after two public burnings that they arn't going to put you out.)
Also If you go to war and it becomes a two way shooting range, break contact.
E&E Don't hang around. If you can make it a safe distance and try to disapear.
Look @ Eric Rudolf! He played hide and seek instead of cowboys and indians. And it's driving them batshit!!
I have tried to mention things that I didn't see posted above. There are many more, but so far this thread looks good.
PS: if your a real prick. Dig a trench and tunnel it with the overhead support strong enough for a lumber truck but weak
enough so it won't hold a Abrams.
Here are a couple 'unusual' ideas.

First, those door battering rams...pretty much go for the center of the door...maybe have a 'pre-stressed' spot on your door--
you'd have to make this yourself, probably--that will just punch right through but leave the rest of the door standing. Kind of
like when your in a tug of war and the other side lets go. Only in reverse.
Effect? 'Holy crap, what do we do now?' Confusion of the JBTs.
Another: have a good heavy wood door, dead bolts like mentioned above, good strong frame, etc, backed by a thing sheet
metal liner. I'm not sure of the ballistics of typical CQB weapons, like MP5s or M4s or whatever they use now, but someone
should know if a 0.5" to 0.75" wood door backed by thin sheet metal--something easy to work with--would stop 9mm or .223
rounds. Additionally, have 'gun ports' cut in the sheet metal for shooting through the door w/ your .308 or similar...when
battering a door down they kind of stand in a line. Return fire--if there is any--should be stopped by the door/sheet metal
liner.
Another: a house audio system. This one is quite interesting the more I think about it. Have your house wired with speakers,
hidden in rooms and certain hallways. The speakers could play foot steps--heavy, loud ones--people screaming 'over here,
pig!', even gunfire, sounds of doors opening and closing...a real house of terrors...in theory, I would think it would have a
superb disorienting effect...add strobe lights here and there...the really tiny ones that strobe brightly...and they might forget
about engagement (esp. if your well hidden) and leave. However, that doesn't leave you able to E&E for good...they'd just
leave the house...and something like that would only work once.
What I'm thinking is that these dynamic entry raids are dangerous for all involved. The guys are scared going in, no matter
how many times they've done it. Adding disorienting effects--doors that you can shoot through, but they can't, a door that
collapses in one spot but doesn't effect it other wise, and a 'house of terrors' sound system, even better with strobes--may
have the effect of losing that hard mental edge they need to execute the entry properly. And that may be just the edge you
need to survive.
Remember...they still have a human mind...and the human mind can be decived, confused, and befuddled when
circumstances suddenly change from what they are expected to be.
Thought of some other things.
Have lineoleum behind your front door? How about pouring some vegetable oil on it? Maybe marbles? That'd foul up the
entrance part...at least for the first couple inside...and impede the rest. Add to the confusion...did they slip and fall? Shot and
killed? What happened to them? The guys behind won't know at first.
You have stairs? Marbles or oil again.
I have a pair of boots that are considered 'tactical', and the grip is phenominal...but I'm not sure they'd stand up to vegetable
oil on lineoleum, and esp. vegetable oil w/ some marbles to un-even the footing and traction.
Remember...unconventional. They aren't expecting this sort of thing.
How about baby gates? Minor inconvience? Easy to kick through? What if they...weren't?
Break the mental edge...that's 1 part of survial. They'll be going by the book, most of us know what it is in part, anyway. That
means we need to counter by throwing the book out...present them with unexpected situations inside.
Something tells me if they ran into enough of these 'houses of horror' they'd rethink either thier tactics for entry, or rethink
the entire idea of dynamic entry...maybe go back to knocking politely. Then again...maybe not.
And put a dozen or so trip lines of clear 100 pound test near entrances with hundreds of tar paper roofing nails so they will fall
all over themselves if they get in.Simple nail boards at the doors, treble fishhooks hung at chin level in the doorways,
loosened floor sctions that will dump them into the basement, and rebar punji spikes at points of cover in the yard. All of this
may cost you ten bucks.
Rorke's Drift is the exception, the Alamo is the rule. If you have an attached garage, keep a vehicle in it, stocked, and dont
park anything in front of it...
try to have your doors set so that they cant hit them straight on , or get a good easy swing at them with a battering ram, how
?. how about building mud rooms on the outside of your doors. if you strenthen your doors where they dont get through with
the first wack , they have lost the element of surprise. i sat down and talked with a swat team survivalist one time and asked
about this . he told me " first they are going to cut your power , about 2 seconds later breaking glass from a flashbang coming
through the window. then the team comes through the door .,grab a shot gun and those electronic shooting muffs that shut
down with loud noises . when the flashbang comes through the window close your eyes till after the blast, when they come
through the door shoot the first guy in the knees , even if they have a shield he is going to get wounded and they are going
to back out with him . of course after that dont expect to come out alive " :End blatent copying of the assault web BBS
some are good, some bad, but its info.

------------------
"I'm not an assassin. killing is more of a hobby with me."' Robert A. Heinlein
EP September 6th, 2001, 11:52 PM

In my opinion, if the SWAT (or other specially trained forces) come after you, you are pretty much screwed. But as long as we
are talking about making your house into a fortress, think about walls. Sure, doors and windows will be the first entry method,
but they can come through walls as well. I think NBK had this video Im thinking of. It shows SWAT with a large frame-looking
contraption. What is in it is explosives! When this frame is held against a wall and deonated, you have a new door. I think
these can actually get through concrete, but maybe not if it had rebar in it. (?)

I was watching Cops the "War on Drugs" the other night, and they were raiding a Heroin dealers house.
He had metal frames over every door and window. So, being resorceful chaps. The pigs pulled them off with a truck and chain.
Remember, if you are going to turn your little house into a fortress. That you need to stop the cops getting ANYTHING inside.
One flashbang and you are fucked, it would give them enough time to get at least one or two men inside or to blow your
fucking head off.
Yes, Swat now have shaped charge technology from Hydrocut industries. Its a moulded polyethylene frame with varying HE's
inside, from Strutable explosives to Strip explosives.
When detonated it can break through almost anything. Even walls.
So the piggies arnt gonna worry about Protekdoor, when they can blow the fucker off.
However, I have never heard of this being used in action by Swat, or any other agency, so chances are its only used in
"Special" occasions.
------------------

You guys have all talked about them coming through the walls windows and door but you forgot one, the roof! Out nere my
dads house a few years ago (this is out the hills)
well this old half-deaf nut kept on getting drunk and kept on saying that he was goning to kill someone and feed them to his
pigs (by the way he was a pig farmer and had 300+ pigs) well one day at about dusk the pigs attacked(the ones with guns not
the ones in pens) well they tossed a ladder on the side of the house and climbed up and cut a hole in the roof with a chainsaw
and jumped through the ceiling tiles after tosing in numerous flash-bangs in and shooting all his dogs in the head (all 16 of
them and they were in their pens too!) They found out he wasn't on the first floor but in the basement watching the game and
he didn't hear a thing (being that he's half-deaf). They draged him outside and threw him in a squadcar and took him to jail
for 3 weeks. An while he was in jail they got a order from the coroner to gut all his pigs to find the remains, and they got
through 52 of them till they found out it was some tourist that sent in a prank call. The kid said that he kill some torist and
feed him to his pigs. After he tried to sue every cop that was there and he's still trying and its been three years and he hasn't
got a dime!
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb

And I Forgot to tell why they went threw the roof he had thick glass block windows and there impossible to get out in a timly
fashion, my dad put them in that house and when he put them in wrong he had to bust them out with a sledge hammer and
broke every block out one by one. And the doors where steel he wanted a radation proof house
I remember helping my dad get those on the truck they weighed a fucking ton being that
they were 1-1/2 inch steel door from a prison (I think?) they had giant steel bolts that held them in place and where electricly
opened!
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
tiac03 April 9th, 2004, 03:11 AM

When something is too good to be true it usually is...
Anyone other than me notice that the people in the cop uniforms were more of the bouncer/weightlifter types? Look at their
chests christ you poke their foreheads and they would probably tip over. I have never seen cops that looked like that. (swat
either).
Now apart from the fact that it is a piece of glorified rubber anyone here honnestly think that someone can market a product
that would make it extremely difficult for a cop to get in to a house? (even if it did do what it said they would have to give the
cops/firemen a quick way to "fix" it so that they can do their job.)
Personally I think the first 1-2 kicks would break the lock (and possibly the door knob therefore fixing their problem). then
once the lock is busted they stick their foot in the door to keep it open and proceed to cut the rubber. with a knife.
Hell if all else fails they pull out their trusty 12-gauge and put a nice hole where the door knob was. (SWAT) even on a metal
door the knob is the weakest part. Hell even a sledge hammer and a piece of a Train Pin (cylinder of hardened steel about 1
foot long and ~2 inches diameter (dimentions from memory) would fix a stubborn door.
Anyways if they send SWAT after you you're screwed. Your best bet is to burn down the house and run to a planed out hide
out. Once again showing that preparation is the most important thing.
Set up some vid cams around the area, a few of the infrared sensors to give yourself some advanced warning. Also plan out a
few escape routes. If and when there is a raid you will have an extra few mins to get ready.
Anyways Isn't it procedure to halt activities when there is a possibility of an "explosive device" being in the vacinity, until the
Bomb Squad comes in and makes sure it is not a problem? I'm sure that would give you plenty of time to ditch shit and run.
(the plus side is that they have to evacuate the surroundings so you can dissapear into the crowd... they do the same thing for
gas leaks...sort of)
I hope I didn't waste anyone's time with this post, and I apologise(sp.?) in advance if I did.

Could I just point out the most fscking obvious point, that no-one has yet made strongly?
If the cops see you have a solid steel door, they will come through a window. If the cops expect bulletproof doors and walls
and windows, they will come through the roof. If they expect you to do a runner in a tank, they will have a tank there ready.
THERE IS *NOTHING* you can beat them at if they are AWARE.
Anything you set up will need to be subtle. If it isn't you are just drawing attention to yourself. Foiled over windows are going to
go down great with the neighbours. Tank traps are going to be noticed in front of the average house, even out in the sticks.
Fore-warned is fore-armed, and it works both ways, but they have more experts and time and money and, importantly, lives,
than you.
EDIT:
I just watched the ProtekDoor video. Looks fairly good, and it is only $20! Two should stop pretty much anything that isn't
faster than the rubber or the door (i.e. shotgun w/ Hatton rounds) and for far less than the cost of the door. You could put one
on every door in the house. I would put it inside a kevlar sock or similar, though, to stop it being cut easily.
I have seen, somewhere, a video of some stupid criminals who were beaten by a strong spring closer on a door. One kicked
the lock off (iirc) and the door flew open halfway, then closed on the kickers leg, causing him to fall over. His mate then
kicked the door too, which didn't help, and after a few more seconds, they ran away!
I have also seen a video (or it might have been in a film) where the cop puts he foot right through a weak spot in the door,
and gets stuck.
SWAT use wedges under the doors to make sure they stay open when they go in. I would imagine they always do as standard
procedure, so they are likely to wedge the door after a few seconds, and then hit it. I also wonder what would happen with one
of the high-powered hydraulic ram openers, as discussed further up.
I think you could make your own using bungee cords fairly easily, too. If you changed the catch from a normal one to a rolling
type, that was designed to fail after some large amount of pressure (like a kitchen cupboard door) it would re-lock each time,
too, which would stop anyone from kicking the catch out, then being able to push it open to cut the cords. They would have to
kick-and-catch, which might take them a few more tries!
For never opened doors, you could cut a tyre, and screw a few large strips of it down both edges. That would stop anyone for
very little money! Also, if what NBK2000 was saying about the armour properties of tyres was true (that they rebound the
bullet) then you could cover your whole door, and then even if they try to shoot off the hinges with a shotgun, they are likely
to pepper themselves, the 9mm they are using should be stopped by two layers (or a section of tractor tyre), they will have
fun cutting through the steel banding in the tyres with a knife (as it will rapidly go blunt, and there is meters of it to cut!) yet
your AP rifle rounds shouldn't really notice a thing!
NightStalker April 13th, 2004, 03:16 PM

You could use a steel fiber reinforced tire, cut and flattened, as a door hinge. :)
By using that, and attaching it the whole length of the door, any shotgun slugs used in an attempt to destroy the hinge would
be nullified.
Swindle1984 May 3rd, 2004, 04:47 PM

The simplest thing would be to open up your door, stick a claymore right in the center or next to the doorknob, the two most
likely places to be rammed or kicked in, and let that solve the problem. As soon as the first guy hits the mine, boom. He's
toast and everyone behind him is lying flat on his back bleeding from the ears and suffering shrapnel wounds. Reinforce the
back of the door so the explosion is directed mostly outward and there you go. Nothing complicated, it's cheap, and it's more
effective than a lot of the other plans here. Who's going to send guys in when simply busting the door open gets a bomb in
the face?
darkdontay May 13th, 2004, 12:56 AM

I have thought about a steel reinforced door with a sliding lock that works lick the cylinder types on safe doors. Though I have
allways thought it to be funny if you could make some thin layer covering the door in the area most likly to be kicked and
have the covering, covering up over soime sharpened spikes. So the scene being they go to kick down the door and get it
stabbed through their foot. Not likely but a funny scene to play out in the head.
nbk2000 May 13th, 2004, 06:42 PM

Explosives would destroy the door in the process, unless you've got a huge steel slab for a door, in which case you don't need
the mine. :p

Would it be possible to have something really exotic?
Here's my idea:
Take a slab of steel or whatever, and machine it to exactly the right size for the opening, which is also steel. Now mount coils
in the frame and the body. Passing current through the coils would make them stick pretty solid, but this makes them
vulnerable to a power cut. However, if the door was carefully designed, you could make use of magnetostriction.
Magnetostriction is why transformers hum - when a current passed through it, the magnetic field makes the metal contract
slightly, so AC makes it vibrate. Use of a good design would mean that when the power was cut, the door expanded back into
the frame, sealing it into, effectively, a solid lump of steel. Power would be needed to open it, and the polarity would also
need to be correct.
Slightly more realistic might be a set of high powered electromagnets, to hold the door clamped very shut. Use four on the
inside of an outward opening steel door, each with a 3 ton holding force, and you are pretty safe. You could even design it so
that to open the door, which was perfectly smooth on the outside, with no handle, you had to enter the right code, which would
reverse the magnets and push your door open for you... (though this would need a few magnets in the actual door, too.)
nbk2000 May 13th, 2004, 10:28 PM

And when the cops cut the power and set your house on fire, you're unable to get out the door, resulting in a weenie
roast...YOUR weenie roast(ed). :p
RTPB "K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid"
Jacks Complete May 14th, 2004, 05:44 AM

LOL. Well, yes, there is that. But then I wouldn't think that any of the doors we have discussed here would let you out in a
midnight powercut and fire situation. In fact, you might be better with this one, since the electromagnets work off 'C' cell
batteries, and could be switched electronically, actually opening the door.
A fire escape is always something to be considered, though, as you are more likely to have issues with fire than the cops, if
you are careful.
nbk2000 May 14th, 2004, 06:30 PM

If you're dealing with the ATF or the FBI, you're almost guaranteed to have an "accidential" fire break out in your house.
:mad:
Flake2m May 15th, 2004, 01:52 PM

Actually I was going to mention this.
If you have a highly secure household you might want to make sure you have a planned fire escape route. The idea of
security is to keep things out, whether they be police, SWAT, burglars or Jehovahs witnesses, though you still want to be able
to leave the house without taking 20mins to lock and bolt everything.
If you were wanting a secure house, make sure you have locks that can be undone easily from the inside and have all keys in
places where they aren't going to be lost or stolen. I'd also have a fire extinguisher or two kept in the house as well some
detectors installed, maybe even a sprinkler system. That way if a fire does break out you can control it before it gets out of
hand or evacuate the house before it consumes you.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Improvised road spikes
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View Full Version : Improvised road spikes
green beret December 14th, 2002, 12:08 AM

I was thinking of a simple cheap, yet innovative idea (as we all do) for making my own road spikes.
(NOTE-NBK I know you have designed your own type of caltrops, I have not in any way ripped this idea from your design)
The first idea I had was not workable, it involved a long (3-4m) roll of carpet about 40cm wide with nails pushed through it, to
use, it would have been rolled into the path of the target vehicle, obviuously if the carpet had been rolled up for any length of
time it would not rolled out well enough unless you held one end while an assistant held the other end down, not the sort of
thing you want to be doing with a speeding vehicle coming at you. So I scrapped that idea.
The next one I had is one that actually works, and quite well, let me tell you :D
Right, heres what I did, these were made from stuff I had lying around the house.
1.Obtain some thick, approx. 3-4cm long flat head nails. These are the actual spike.
2.Then get some wine bottle corks, straight ones, not those curvey ones, and cut them into slices about 9mm thick. So you
should have a round slice of cork resembling a thick slice of salami (smaller though of course).
3.Then all that needs to be done is to simply push a nail through a sliced off section of the cork, preferably at a slight angle.
Repeat until you have as many as needed
Then as a finishing touch, spray paint them all black or a similar colour.
Unfortunately, these need to be placed on the ground, not thrown, so as to ensure they face upwards. They are best used
when you know the vehicle will be coming, so you can set up in advance. Another added thing you can do to minimise them
occupant of the vehicle spotting the spikes is to put a distraction about 40m after the spikes, something wierd looking, so that
while he/she is thinking what the fuck is that ahead, he/she does not notice the spikes and drives straight on over them.
These spikes best lend themselves to ambush situations, where you set up, then sit back and wait.
Well thats it, let me know what you all think.
kingspaz December 14th, 2002, 08:58 AM

if you had a welder you could weld lots of nails together into threes. weld two nails into a cross and another one perpendicular
to the cross so it would stand up however it landed. then you could get a chain and weld lots of these little units to it so you
could simply throw it out onto the ground then collect it back in quickly if it needed to be deployed somewhere else.
Energy84 December 14th, 2002, 11:39 AM

I've been thinking about this one for a long time and I think that fencing staples would be ideal if you were to us the welding
method. Just hook them together since they're U-shaped and tack weld them. Then you'd just have to bend the ends apart a
little bit to get the right angles. Here, you would have 4 ends, 3 would always be on the ground and the 4th would always point
upwards.

One should strive to avoid the need for a welder though, since that's a rather expensive bit of equipment for most of us.

Yeah, I know a better job could be done with a welder, but I wanted a method that was cheap and easy. I know they are not
the best improvised road spikes out there, but they are very simple to make, and dont require special tools, and although
they need to be placed one by one on the road, they DO work. These would be handy if you needed some in a hurry and didnt
have any special tools, and isnt that what improvisation is all about, being able to make something effective without any
special tools or equipment?
But yes I do like the ideas you guys said, yours especially kingspaz, I like the idea of having them on a chain, for easy
deployment.

Another point with mine; it dosent matter that alot of them arent reuseable, I designed them that way so I dont get pissed off
when they are damaged etc. If I spent a fair bit of time on a welder, I would get sick of loss/repair, thats why I designed mine
to be disposable, when you need more, just take 10mins to make them up, assuming you have enough corks <img

One thing you could do that should make a vast improvement would be to use hollow tubing for the spikes. These would be
cut to lengths just a little shorter then the nail, and slipped over it.
When the tire rolled over the nail, the nail would punch the hole, the tube would be embedded in the tire and, when the tire
continued rolling, centrifugal force would fling the nail out of the tube, letting all the air vent out.
Or, if the nails are large enough, you could cut a slot along the length of the nail using a cut-off wheel in a dremel tool so the
air can vent out quickly.
Cpt Grim December 16th, 2002, 05:09 AM
Instead of making road spikes and watching them getting destroyed, you could always go to a local hardware store and buy a
whole heap of L-nails, I'm not sure what they are exactly used for but they look like 2 L's joined together. They are very
effective to as the were on the news in my country
[ December 16, 2002, 04:11 AM: Message edited by: Cpt Grim ]

There horse shoe nails, well a while ago I made something like this (sorry for the diagram)
chain =====
pipe / \
====/====\====/====\====/====\====/====\====
Well I made this by getting some old chain and some .25" that fit in the links and I tack welded a 3" piece of pipe every 4
links about 4.5" at a different angle and then I sharped the ends of the pipe with a angle grinder.

nbk, yes i was about to suggest that too. thats what the pigs actually use. thats why the tyres get fucked instantly on them.
you would only need a welder for a short a day so if you hired on for the weekend then it wouldn't cost that much.
Harry December 17th, 2002, 12:24 PM

Use Bondo instead of welding.
Twist your fence staples about each other instead of weld. Shorter spikes, but cheaper.
Harry
THErAPIST December 17th, 2002, 08:57 PM

i have been making tire puncture tubes for quite a while now. to make em i go get some thin aluminum tubing from a hobby
shop (used for kites) they're 4 inch long pieces of aluminum tubing that are about a quarter of an inch wide. i take these
tubes and cut them in half with a dremel at an angle so that they are like extremely large syrenge needles. i have never once
had trouble killing a tire with these. put a few of em thrue a piece or rubber and roll it up. when the car's coming unroll it and
then roll it back up after the car goes over it. the tubes will come out of the rubber and stay in the tire. these are cheap. easy
to make and extremely effective. only problem with mine is the fact that they are usually a gold color since thats the color the
tubing is. nothing a little spray paint couldnt fix though. if you dont have a hobby shop anywhere around you then go to an
appliance place and pick up some of those extendable tv antennas. cut those tubes into pieces. ive never tried it but im sure
it would work. and if punture tubes dont seem like a fun enough idea then im sure you could always go and press some AP
into the tubes with a metal rod on top so that when the car tire goes over it pushes the pin down on the ap detonating it and
most likely blowing a small hole in the tire, either that or it might propell the metal rod thrue the tire if youre lucky. if one cant
find out where to get a sheet of rubber then im sure you could go and drill shallow holes in a piece of wood and place the
tubes in the holes making sure that the tubes could come out easily, or maybe you could just push the tubes thrue a thick
piece of cardboard. the car goes over the board or piece of cardboard and you pull the board or cardbopard out of the way so
that noone else hits it. simple enough. i think i might have a go at putting puncture tubes thrue a piece of cardboard and
sitting it in the road tonight to see how well it works. i doubt a car with 2 flat tires is going anywhere till the next mornin, in
which case ill see it when i go to school.

Great, now we've got random acts of vandalism with no purpose behind it.
:rolleyes:
Flattening some poor schmucks tires when he's trying to get to his minimum wage job to feed his 3 kids after his wife died
from lead poisoning at the battery plant...*sniff*..would just be...wrong!*sob*
At least flatten a cops tires, or some jive nigga's G-ride. :)
Try using styrofoam board. It's 99% air, and flattens to nothing after a car rolls over it. Simply embed the spikes in that. It's
extremely light, very cheap, easy to cut with a steak knife, and could even be made to "self-destruct" if there was acetone
included in a rupturable container to dissolve it.
THErAPIST December 17th, 2002, 09:55 PM

heh. if the random acts of vandalism were directed at me then nope. ive always had reasons. good idea with the styrafoam
though. noone around heres pissed me off enough lately for me to flatten their tires so i think ill give a few to my friend so he
can test it. his neighbor called the cops on him for playing with fireworks (the guy said he was shooting off a gun) so i think
the ass deserves it.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Capitalize the beginning of your sentences. And the letter "i" is capitalized to "I" when referring to yourself.
This isn't queerpier. We expect a certain level of grammatical effort from our posters.
You're allowed here only on our largesse. Don't test it further.
Woof. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

NBK
Sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
[ December 19, 2002, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: THErAPIST ]

NBK I relly like that Idea with the hollow tubing, I'll try it some time.
I also dont I also dont agree with random vandalism, but like you said, hit some dumb ass homy-g nigger. See how tough
they are on a deserted road without their funkmobile. Morons.
I think I will try the antenna tubing at first, Im also working on some new ideas to improve/elaborate the road spikes, such as
small explosive ones that will shred a tyre to ribbons. Maybe disguised as rocks for use on dirt roads.

No longer among the living.
NBK
Harry December 27th, 2002, 12:34 PM

No longer among the living.
NBK
stiler December 30th, 2002, 06:11 AM

Forget the welder the corks and the glue. Just make the real Mc coy.
What you need is ready made spikes. Where do you find them?? Reo mesh that you use in concreting. Grab it at the recycle
depot, hardware, building sites etc. Chop it up into crosses with bolt cutters, hack saw, oxy.bent to oposing right angles.
It makes no difference how they are deployed, three sides will always be the legs for support, with the fourth always pointing
up!
Hope I havent stolen someone elses idea, I thought of it about ten years ago and it worked for me.

The rebar wire has been suggested before.
The problem with using solid objects is that they don't let the air escape quickly enough. If a spike/nail is lodged in the tire, it
blocks the air from escaping. If it's thrown out, the rubber naturally shrinks closed, slowing the air release.
Only a hollow tube stuck in the tire will allow the air to freely escape.
Now, for antipersonnel use, solid wire caltrops are good. :)
Jackotrades September 28th, 2003, 01:47 AM

A very effective caltrop can be made from street signs. A standard stopsign is made out of fairly thick steel. If you cut the sign
into squares, four inches on a side, and bend two opposite corners down and the remaining corners up, you're left with a
caltrop that will always land with one point up (actually more "at an angle" than "up", but it doesn't make a difference). These
particular devices don't just puncture tires, they cut two inch long slits which bleed the air out almost instantly. They are also
stackable for compact storage, and highly mass-produceable . When painted flat-black, they're almost invisible on roads at
night. Two or three of theses can be carried in the glove box, and planted under tires for sabotage purposes, or you could toss
a couple hundred of them out the window in a high speed chase.
I suppose you could "buy" some sheet metal for these too, but what's the fun in that?
A word of warning though....Sign metal is ungodly tough. Cutting these things out takes a grinder. Tin snips tend to "die" when
you use them for this.
sauvin October 10th, 2003, 05:16 AM

Is barbed wire (fencing material) just a Hollywood myth?
TANIS October 10th, 2003, 11:02 AM

If you live in a rural area the use of sickle mower blades or the triangle shaped blades on the reel of combines works great for
shredding tires .I`ve used these before on dirt and gravel roads to keep hunters on their 4 wheel atv`s off the property.If they
do find the blades they just assume that they got knocked off a peice of farm equipment .Which is great because ift gives you
easy deniabilty
No risk no rewards

Originally posted by sauvin
Is barbed wire (fencing material) just a Hollywood myth?
Some say that it is an elaborate hoax and the material seen in the media is simply intricate props and complicated computer
generated effects, but I myself am a believer! I have seen it with my own two eyes, though I promptly broke down and wept at
the sight, unable to comprehend why I alone had been chosen to witness the greatest miracle since Jesus Christ bewildered
onlookers by shooting terrifying bolts of lightning from his anus.
Lord protect us from the incredible world we are unable to bend our meagre minds around!
nbk2000 October 10th, 2003, 10:30 PM

To Anthony:
[Austin Powers]
Oh, behave!
[/Austin Powers]
;) :D

Barbed wire a hoax I've ran into enough of it hunting to know its real. I also use barbed wire of keep ATVs off of my property I
take two 2'x4's posts and hammer them into the ground on the sideds of the trails onto my land and then I staple/loop the
wire inbetween the stakes at ground level to 2" inches above. It acts as a rather effective quad deterant.
Ezekiel Kane October 11th, 2003, 09:05 AM

:D Sorry guys, I'm laughing my ass off right now. No, barbed wire isn't a hoax. I'd been told that only us southerners are
familiar with it, but I never believed that. Guess it came back to me. Barbed wire was originally used in the mid-19th century
during the cattle drives, when cowboys would drive longhorns north to railheads for sale by the pound and property disputes
came up.
Down here in Texas you see it *everywhere* - it's just understood that if you're infiltrating a secure building you're going to
run into it. It's more common on the sides of the state highways down here than ricerz waiting for AAA because they can't
change the tires on their Honda Civics themselves.
grandyOse October 11th, 2003, 10:27 AM

Barbed wire is also common in the midwest and western usA. You may have trouble finding it in the stores if you ask for it ,
though. The correct pronounciation is; BOB WAHR.
DBSP October 11th, 2003, 10:52 AM

OK, lets get this back on topic shall we??
I don't know where I got them but I've got two of these things I've found.
It's basicly a round metal plate with three triangle shaped "wings" pointing upwards. I've noticed that the point allways end
point up when thrown to the ground. I discovered this when I accidetally dropped one of these while cleaning out my room and
then allmost stepped on it.
I'll see if I can get a picture of one of them up, I don't really remamber where I put them actually but if I would find one of
them I'll let you know.
They would be great for dispersing from a car window in a pursuit(sp?) or similar.

I've seen similar things to what you describe, but with the spikes pointing out on both sides and more of them. I believe they
are used to join the ends of pieces of wood together, butt to butt.

I know those things, is it a stamped metal plate thats curved with metal spikes on the outside edge? If it is, its a metal chair
leg portector you hammer them into the bottom of a wooden chair leg to help keep them from scratching. They would be great
at a beach but first you would have paint them a sand color. Those fuckers hurt like hell to step on and are a fucking PAIN to
get out of your foot at 2am. :mad:
ErebusBat October 12th, 2003, 09:31 PM

Why not modify NBK s idea an d use paper or Styrofoam plates with na ils pushed through it? Simp le to con struct with read ily
available materials from any Wal-Mart.
The only downside I see is that if it were thrown then it would be possible to land wrong-side-up. There could be several
probable solutions to this; just a few:
1. A streamer so if it were designed to be thrown it would orient correctly when falling.

2. Modify the nails/tubes so that it would not matter in what direction the tire had to impact. (i.e. the plate might be in the
middle of the nails/tubes)
3. A weight on the bottom of the plate/bowl so it would orient correctly.
I made a bunch of these types of road stars, I took a long strip of 3" wide retangular 1/4" sheet steel and drilled a hole in the
center of each and tack welded a 3/8" steel tube into each. They were really easy to make a made about 50 in about 1 hour.
Tuatara October 13th, 2003, 12:41 AM

There is a special type of nail you can buy at hardware stores called a 'wire dog' IIRC. Its used for securing joists to bearers
and bearers to piles when building houses. It looks like a big double ended nail (two pointy ends that is!), bent into a
rectangular "U", but with a 90 degree twist through the bottom of the U, so the two 'arms' of the U are pointing 90 degress
apart. F*** its hard to describe this thing in words.
So if you toss one of these on the ground, you'd get one point sticking up, and the other point and the bottom of the U lying
flat on the ground.
Nice thing is they're ready-made, perfectly legit and made of 4mm thick steel.
YayItGoBoom! October 26th, 2003, 09:04 PM

Heres a pretty simple and effective device, though I am not sure how effective it would be at punctureing (I tried to cut up a
tire once for a project that I needed rubber strips DAMN that was hard). You cut up 2" squares of 1/8 sheet metal, put a hole
through the center, and drive a piece of copper pipe through it so its equal length on both sides. Sharpen the edges of the
square and pipe for more cuttability (that a word?). It always ends up in a diagonal position with the pipe at 45 deg, making
them ideal for throw and run scenarios. If it lands with the pipe facing against the direction of movement, it punctures and
deflates the tire quickly. If its on the side, then the sharp corner of the square is facing the tire, and would do some damage
itself. The only situation that might not be as effective would be if the pipe is slanted upward away from where the tire would
be coming from. There is a chance that the whole square would be imbedded in the tire, if you serrated it it would optomize
the effect.

I have know a few examples of caltrops. Most were just two bent nails, welded, with the heads grinder sharpened.
One was of a different type from most descriptions.
Four long wood screws were welded together, in the usual fashion, and then a Dremel tool was used, with a cutting disk, to put
a slot in the side of each screw. This was similar to the blood drain on a sword. The tips were ground sharp. The threads would
have ensured massive damage as the device was ripped out, or the wheel would be very out of balance.
It seemed to be very effective, though not to my knowledge ever tested on a car tyre.
Obviously, the slots would have been better cut before welding, and all the way through. This would ensure that air could
escape at high speed, regardless of the level of penetration of the tyre (assuming the inner tyre wall face was breached)
As a purely theoretical idea, a stamped version (Edit: of a caltrop, not off the above design), similar to a 6 point shuriken,
could be made quickly and easily (with a press!). The points would be bent three up and three down. When thrown, these
would be very sharp, and stick into the tyre pretty solidly, seriously unbalancing it.
Without a press, it might be possible to cut sheetmetal to shape, perhaps with a pair of tin snips, or a whole stack of sheets
could be cut into a hexagon shape with a hacksaw, and the "points" bent appropriately.
steyr November 22nd, 2003, 06:49 PM

You can make crosses from two parts of flat steel, weld it and weld SHORT nails to it. Now you must make few, and spike it to
carpet. If you use long nails, they will bend. Short nails must be long enough to pierce tire. SORRY FOR SCHEME :)
http://steyrphotos.w.interia.pl/nails.gif
xyz November 22nd, 2003, 09:59 PM

Please capitalize the letter "I" and word your posts more coherently in the future, it's a long fall to the banned for life section
and you're balancing on the very edge with the 4 uselesss posts you have made (in other threads as well) .
xyz November 24th, 2003, 05:25 AM

OK, now that your post makes a bit more sense, that design actually looks OK, but why use cross shapes? Wouldn't squares
be easier and more effective?
steyr November 24th, 2003, 11:43 AM

Ok ok you're right. You can use squares, circles, crosses, even stars! Only don't make thin and long rectriangle, it will fall.
Maybe you can try bending them lightly in direction of car like that:
http://steyrphotos.w.interia.pl/car.gif

As an aside, the IRA use(d) a carpet of nails. They didn't need a welder. They just bought a load of carpet tacks, then
hammered them into the roll of carpet, rolling as they went. This was then just unrolled across the road to be blocked. After
all, you don't need a base plate, as the tarmac will do, as long as the nails point upwards!
(I copied ^-this from my reply in the water cooler)
Also, I wouldn't angle them like that, unless you are driving one way, and the mark is driving the other!
The problem with nails is that it takes awhile for them to deflate a tire.
The road spikes that the police use are actualy hollow to let as much air out as fast as possible.
Ive been thinking about a small explosive that can be deployed like the caltrops that would cause a quick blowout when ran
over.
That would give a quick jolt and give a much better chance of the driver loosing control.
We have a show on here about police chases and they have had some drivers go for many miles on just the rims so i feel a
fast blowout would be the best option to be of any tactical use.
sorry for repeating basicly what NBK had posted, i didnt read the posts far enough up:(

PHAID,
hence my idea to have the small metal stars that stick into the tyre, and stay there. At high speed, one of these in the tyre
will wreck the balance and make the car un-drivable at speed, as well as working on "run-flat" tyres so beloved of our military
and police. Another effect would be the lack of traction would make cornering a shower of sparks and excitement!
The police "core" type of trap uses hollow steel pins that actually leave a load of small holes cut out. Nothing too dramatic, as
they aren't trying to kill, but the fastest cars get only a half a mile with four flats, and, of course, the police cars don't have the
same disadvantage, so can easily keep up.
EP December 9th, 2003, 07:41 PM

A link some might find interesting:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/08/1070732147919.html
majes December 16th, 2003, 11:54 PM

Is there any way to have a chemical caltrop? Something so reactive with tire rubber that it would ruin the tires relatively quickly,
you could spray it out of the back of your car.
Dave the Rave December 17th, 2003, 01:35 PM

Not so easily made but, why not take an square of metal, cut four slots, one at each intersection of the angles, then bend one
point up and one point down, sharpen it with a file and it's done. Any way it will be trown on the street, at least four sharpen
points will be protude upwards and four will be downwards, Surely it will quickly flat the tire.
Rhadon December 17th, 2003, 01:52 PM

majes: Looks like something from a movie... that won't work, there's no substance that will severly damage rubber in a matter
of seconds.
Dave the Rave: That method would damage the tyre, but the difficulty will be that the piece of metal is not going to get in
contact with it in most cases. Therefore you will have to make a lot of them and that would be a very time-consuming process,
so I would favour other designs which are better suited for mass production.

I have a formulation (DVD) that will depolymerize a tire within a few minutes, but not in the quantity or with the rapidty, that
you'd need to use it to stop a persuer. It's for sabotage and immobilization.
udtst December 17th, 2003, 10:20 PM

NBK, What is the compound that does that to the tire, and how canI make it? I got a couple of extra tires I would like to see
"melt".

You'll have to buy the DVD to find out. :)
Dave the Rave December 18th, 2003, 03:40 PM

@Rhadom - Sure its not so mass product designed, but, once youve started to make one, its easy go on and make one
hundred... Besides, think of it, a smal box, with an eletricaly opered open, where 50 of these things are lying over a bed of BP
with an ignition sistem, rigth at your cars back ... You looks at your retrovisor, and find yourself being chased by the pigs...
You hit the "fuckoff" button, a small explosion scares the chaser, while propels the spikes by the road. A bit of smoke covers
the spikes, helping the chaser to loose control of the car.
PHAID December 18th, 2003, 06:52 PM

Dave the Rave
That might be an interesting and possible option for small areas but what do you do for larger cities that have a helicopter on
your ass as well?
The best option is never to get them after you in the first place.
udtst December 22nd, 2003, 02:52 AM

This might sound a bit weird but what about a focused emp blast. Just shut down the cops car.
Get the plans for an emp pulse generator put a "dish" on the end to focus it and then start shuting anything with computer
chips down :) a place you can buy the plans is
http://www.plans-kits.com/plans/emp.html
NBK
on payday I'll be getting that dvd :)
edit: PHAID
Emp should take out the chopper as well if you aim the gun at it. Then not only will you be in trouble for running from them,
you'll also get murder charges. But hey bubba will always be there for you!
xyz December 22nd, 2003, 04:37 AM

EMP doesn't work very well on cars because the metal car body absorbs most of the energy and stops it from reaching the
electrics.
Skyscraper December 22nd, 2003, 07:19 AM

Would a dish actually focus the EMP to the degree required? I mean, you'd need it to be more powerful one car away than it is
IN THE CAR. It's just not something you'd like to be wrong about, you know?
udtst December 22nd, 2003, 04:20 PM

I am looking into how the US military uses emp to shut down cars and other things. I know they have the emp bomb, and I
know how that works. though I am not sure how the "emp rifles" work at getting past the metal plating of the car body. when I
find out I'll post it.
Jacks Complete December 22nd, 2003, 08:25 PM

Some research has paid off. It seems that in the UK, most police cars now use tyre sealant in them. This will re-seal up to a
6mm hole, guaranteed. Not sure if it would stop a stinger from stopping you, but certainly it will be an honourable mention.
The stuff is called "Ultraseal", and there is a video online of someone stabbing a tyre a lot with an icepick, and just getting
tired!
This further enamours me to the idea of sticking things (in)to the tyre to unbalance them, as this would seem to be the only
way to be sure.
YayItGoBoom! December 22nd, 2003, 09:48 PM

How about trying to take out the fuel line instead of the tires? Same effect, stops the pigs in their tracks, and might provide
some interesting fireworks that would cause further confusion. A simple, electronically triggered claymore with two wires sticking
out of the top, like those electric bumper cars. A car driving over would complete the circuit, and set off the hemi-cylinder
shaped explosive (the shrapnel would be place in a half circle arrangement to take out straight above, coat the bottom of the
car with holes and most likely puncture something, as well at send some into the tires. If you really wanted to go the whole 9
yards, screw the shrapnel, just pack the thing with a few kilos of ANNM. (I am no explosive expert but surely 5 lbs of your
choice of AN based explosive under a vehicle would....not be pleasant for the driver if you will)
Skyscraper December 23rd, 2003, 01:35 AM

Has anyone considered injecting some kind of incindiary mixture into the tire? I suppose you'd need to find out if that re-
sealant is flammable, but even if it's not, could the incindiary destroy enough before it ran out of air? As far as that goes,
would the oxygen being consumed cause the tire to deflate?
udtst December 23rd, 2003, 08:29 AM

Ok after thinking about it the best way to stop the car is to take out the driver. So we go get a very fast and fun bb gun like
in: http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?threadid=748&highlight=bbs
,and
http://www.pipersprecisionproducts.com
then just eat threw the car and to the driver.'
nbk even said something along the lines of this in that post(first link):
" If it was, for instance, aimed at a person inside of a vehicle, it'd first shatter the windshield, then break through, then chew
up the interior and the occupant within. And do so without any annoying blasts to draw witness attention"
sounds like a winner to me :)
Skyscraper December 23rd, 2003, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by udtst
" If it was, for instance, aimed at a person inside of a vehicle, it'd first shatter the windshield, then break through, then chew
up the interior and the occupant within. And do so without any annoying blasts to draw witness attention"
sounds like a winner to me :)

I'm pretty sure that if they wanted to do that they could just use a supressed pistol. The idea here is to stop cars without
having to aim, and without killing the driver (presumably, otherwise the thread would be, "Improvised land mine").
What if your target were, say, an armoured car?
nbk2000 December 23rd, 2003, 04:47 PM

A landmine? That's subtle.
Yes, it'd work, but then how are you going to drive over it yourself since (presumably) the person chasing you is right behind
you and will be following in the same lane (or road) as you, meaning you'd have to drive over your own mine first...;)
vulture December 23rd, 2003, 06:06 PM

Another idea would be to drive around with a trailer behind your car where you keep all the incriminating shit in.
If the shit hits the fan and you get into a pursuit, you detach the trailer, which then becomes a nice obstacle for your pursuits.
Efraim_barkbit December 23rd, 2003, 06:55 PM

Injecting incendaries(!) in the tires? using a bb minigun? and this in a thread about improvising road spikes. gimmie a fucking
break!
is it kewl month or what?
Skyscraper December 23rd, 2003, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by Efraim_barkbit
Injecting incendaries(!) in the tires? using a bb minigun? and this in a thread about improvising road spikes. gimmie a fucking
break!
is it kewl month or what?
Whoo, you got me there. I bow to your higher postcount.
Would you care to tell me why I'm wrong, or are you just going to say "DUMB NOOB LOL" and leave it at that? I don't see why
what I've said is unreasonable, or even inappropriate to a thread about road spikes.

The good thing, about this design, on the picture I'm posting, is that whereever you throw it, it always lands with a point up,
ready to pierce a tire/foot/hoof. The reason I said foot and hoof, is because they were used a lot in Medieval times, to stop
horses and people....
http://www.cia.gov/cia/information/artifacts/caltrop.gif

those particular ones wern't used in medieval times. they are hollow and have vent holes, specifically for taking out wheeled
vehicles. the venting allows the air from the tyre to escape in a very short time period.

True indeed...I was just stating, that I have read from numerous sources...including old history books, about how they used to
use caltrops on men and horses. I never saw those vent holes...thanks kingspaz for pointing that out :)

the pictures you provided are quite useful as they demonstrate a simple yet effective design. it can be seen from the photo
that the caltrap is simply two pieces of bent steel tube. i've never tried bending steel in such a way but with the help of a blow
torch i don't think it would be a problem. infact, it would be possible without a blow torch. if a piece of steel tube was taken and
had the ends sharpened with a grinder and then the vent hole cut into it also then it shouldn't be too difficult to bend since the
section of metal being bent would be oposite the vent hole so in effect, almost flat. make two the same then spot weld
together. arc welders are quite cheap, and very useful.
Blackhawk December 28th, 2003, 09:39 PM

Exactly, these would be great if you were trying to get the cops of your arse, just have someone in the back throwing handfulls
on the road, or whip up a small pouch undreneath the back of your car that opens to release between 50 and 100 of these
with the flick of a switch, no matter how much gap filler they have in their tires if the spike lodges in the tire it will not be able
to re-seal.

Yes, indeed...because the gap, won't reseal, beause of the holes in the tubes...I'll have to do some tests.
Blackhawk December 29th, 2003, 11:56 PM

Make some and go to your local cop shop, hide them in front and behind the tires so they roll over them when the cars drive
off. Just make sure you don't leave any fingerprints/fibres on the spikes and don't get seen putting them there or watching
the fun too intently, on second though brobably better trying them on a car that dosn't belong to the pigs :P

Blackhawk, thats a fucking stupid idea. why go out of your way to find trouble? if you need to test it why not test it on a
random car parked in the street?? much safer alternative. plus you can then pick your spot and avoid areas with CCTV (such
as police stations)
xyz December 31st, 2003, 05:21 AM

Although it is a stupid idea, I think the reason he posted it was because it would test the effectiveness against tyres that
contain resealing agents (like police car tyres). Most tyres don't contain any.
But, just to clarify, I still think it is a very stupid idea to test it on a police car.
Blackhawk December 31st, 2003, 08:17 PM

Yes well obviously, hence the:
"Just make sure you don't leave any fingerprints/fibres on the spikes and don't get seen putting them there or watching the
fun too intently, on second thought brobably better trying them on a car that dosn't belong to the pigs :P"
I was just saying that it would be good to test against the re-sealing agent but there is no way you could safely use them on a
cops car so don't bother.
PHAID December 31st, 2003, 08:31 PM

Find a high end sports car, The corvette ZR1 did come with the self sealing tires as im sure several others do as well.
You can also load an old tire down with "Fix a flat" which will give you a good guide as to how well you spikes would work
against self sealing tires.
NightStalker December 31st, 2003, 09:20 PM

The only way you could be sure that the spikes would work against the cops tires would be to use them against the cops tires.
The RTPB's mention practicing your skills before you actually need to use them. This would definitely be something you'd want
to test before hand.
The worst time to find out that your spikes don't work against the piggies tires is when they're 10 feet behind you while you're
going 100mph.
Ammonal January 1st, 2004, 01:27 AM

I have been inpsired by the picture that flashpoint posted and so I bought a 6m length of 1/2"OD pipe with 1/8" walls. My
theory is that I will cut 2X 6" lengths of tube, bend in the middle to a right angle, clamp together and weld, and drill the
exaust hole. Although I figure that because the part of the tube that puntures the tire will be hollow all the way through, the
exaust hole will probably become a weakness but I will see once I have made about a dozen or so. This 'tire sealant' is
probably good for 1 or 2 6mm holes but what about a tire hitting 3 - 6 spikes? surely every time the tire hits a spike, some of
the pressure must leak out; thus drawing the sealing compound with it. If the tire hits multiple spikes then soon the tire is
gonna be a drag and reduce the handling of the piggies car. Especially with someone mentioning dropping 50 - 100 of these
spikes onto the road in one go! That has got to slow the barstards down, hopefully into a tree or ditch or other piggies car ;)
Anthony January 1st, 2004, 07:49 AM

I don't see why those vent holes are needed. The air should simply escape from the other end of the tube which has
penetrated the tyre.
blindreeper January 1st, 2004, 10:18 AM

I was thinking the same thing but maybe the tube becomes sealed welded together? I am not expert welder so I wouldn't
have a clue.
Ammonal January 1st, 2004, 06:09 PM

Providing that I do not 'blow' right through the walls of the tubing as I tack weld them together I believe that the exaust vent
will not be needed. That and a nice coat of matt black spray paint ;)
I should have some pictures within a day or so. Dont know about testing them, I have some old farm equipment which I can
bugger the tires on. But I think that I might have to go to another town to "field test" the spikes.
Blackhawk January 1st, 2004, 08:24 PM

the vent holes might also be usefull if the car tire squashes the tube at the bend point stopping the air from escaping out the
other end, and the holes don't really detract from the function so it is a good idea to have them.
udtst January 1st, 2004, 10:29 PM

Idea, what if you took each spike and connected them into a "spike strip" like the ones that the big city cops use. Maby make
it spring loaded some how so that when deployed it will strech out and hit both front tires.
Also what if you made the tips of the spike like arrows or like a fish hook barb. That way when they go in it is very hard to get
out.
Blackhawk January 2nd, 2004, 05:38 AM

The spike strip idea has already been discussed at length above, the idea with this design is that it is much more like a
caltrop, in that it will always land with a spike up and they can be thrown from say a moving car to catch anyone behind you,
you can't very well deploy a spike strip if you are being chased by the person you want to screw up.
See this new thread:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3573
for a new and possibly better way to stop the pigeon ..er.. truck.
flashpoint January 6th, 2004, 02:32 PM

Ammonial, any pictures yet? I"m curious to see this.
Anthony: I doubt that it does need vent holes, although, if it had them, I can see the tire deflating a lot faster. :)
xyz January 6th, 2004, 10:33 PM

Vent holes would just add that extra bit of reliability in the offchance that the pipe was bent shut by the car or something like
that. It would be very easy to put them in too so I can see no reason not to have them.
Ammonal January 7th, 2004, 08:18 AM

All in good patience Flashpoint, things are very busy with new years over and work (not part time) beginning again. But in the
morning I will have photos of the first spike I have made. I ended up using some thicker 1/2" with 2mm wall for the first spike
because I am just plain too stingy to buy a 6metre length at the moment. The spike is also fairly large I might consider
bringing the length of pipe down to 4" and 1/4" pipe. The photo will have a one litre acetone tin next to the spike for reference
(I think most people here should have some idea what size a litre tin of acetone is ;)). Anyways I will edit this post and add
the photo, I will also provide several more photos for those interested on my website (which is empty at the moment too)
EDIT: You may have noticed that I said earlier in one of my posts that I had bought, I should have said was planning on but
still I am glad that I didnt because these spikes are pretty big when made from 1/2" pipe. The photo will illustrate this better.
warren January 10th, 2004, 07:11 PM

If I was to make road spikes I would take 4 1-inch nails and make something like the piece in a jack's set, the piece you hafe
to pick up before chatching the ball. Make 10-20 of those put them all in a bucket and chuck them out on the road when the
car is approaching.
It would most likely work but if they were not welded or glued properly they would just break under the tires.

Warren: read the first 9/10th's of this thread and you might learn why your suggestion is stupid, for anything solid to be
effective against a tyre then it must penetrate the tyre and then be removed for the air to escape. Nails/rod/rebar/etc dont
work for this reason.
More importantly here is a picture of my prototype tyre spike:

I think that 1/2" is too big for making the spikes but 3/8" might work well, providing a wall thickness of at least a 1/16" is
available.
EDIT: I cant see the picture? is it just me? It says its attached. Either way the picture and a video of the spike being thrown will
be on my website in little while.
blindreeper January 11th, 2004, 08:58 AM

Would larger spikes not be better? Bigger hole, more air escapes?

The calthrop concept is of course great. An idea I had, although this sort of idea is discussed in a way already, would be this:
Purchase a determined length of thick steel wire, like used to re-enforce structures. Get it with the loops on both ends. Also
purchase a couple of very strong load-bearing carabiners. Finally some barbed wire with 1/2" or 3/8" inch spikes, whichever is
determined to be better for puncturing a tire.
Wrap the length of the steel wire tightly with the barbed wire, so the whole length is spiked, minus the loops at the ends.
Decide on a predetermined spot for this road block, someplace that has structure on both sides of the road equally placed
(telephone pole, fire hydrant, mailbox, etc.) Extend the spiked wire the lenth of the road, of course as close to the ground as
possible. Wrap around structures at the roadsides until it is pulled tightly. Use the carabiners through the loops and then onto
the wire itself, so the when pulled on the wrap actually tightens.
The idea would be, of course, that when a police or other vehicle drives over this, it will puncture all four tires without snapping
or removing the wire.
xyz January 12th, 2004, 06:41 AM

Blindreeper, the caltrop that ammonal posted is quite large, it also uses very wide tubing so it will let plenty of air out, I tink
the tire would go flat in a matter of seconds if it worked properly.
The only peoblem that I can see is that the wider you make the tube, the more force will be required to pierce the tyre with it,
and therefore lighter vehicles may not be properly affected.
Blackhawk January 12th, 2004, 09:05 PM

Mabey it would be good to make a mix of large and small ones, that way if a heavy car hits the large ones deflate the tires in
a matter of seconds, but if a lighter car hits and the big ones don't penetrate the smaller ones do.

That would be overkill, when you could make a heap of these (all I used was a hack saw, some pipe, and arc welder) They
take about 5mins each, though if you were to go through and cut 100X 6" lengths of pipe (enough for 50 spikes) and then
bend each of these, then weld, you should be able to make 50 + in uder an hour. The most time consuming part of
production would be waiting for the paint to dry.
JamesyBHOY January 24th, 2004, 11:29 PM

The pic that one of the users provided above of the Road Spikes can be bought here
http://www.fire-balls.com/catalog.asp?display=6
Except they are called Road Stars(scroll down a little),Although i don't think many people could afford to buy a useful amount
of them for the prices they charge.Still always handly to know where to get them just in case.
JamesyBHOY January 26th, 2004, 10:13 PM

Then again if they have this on their vehicle,then the road spikes will useless as shit.
http://www.sdms.co.uk/PersonalProtection/Pages/Pe135.htm
Three January 27th, 2004, 01:54 AM

Earlier on there was talk of barbed wire, and it was dismissed as stupid... From the tone of the discourse I gather that barbed
wire is not particularly common in the US, but here in Australia it is literally everywhere. Children's playgrounds have barbed
wire fences around them.
Anyhow, I realise that it wouldn't be useful to bleed the air out of tyres, but it's a bastard if it gets stuck in anything - it can be
extremely difficult to get out. If you lay a length of barbed wire across a road, or threw it from the back of a car, it would
imbed itself in the tyres of anything that drove over it. At that point the car is screwed - seeing as it is a wire, it would
immediately wrap itself around the axle and probably foul the brakes. The car would immediately be disabled, and would quite
possibly lose control and crash, which can only be a good thing.
Ther best part is that barbed wire is totally legal, you can have a hundred pre-cut lengths in the back of your car or ute and
not only can you not be apprehended, noone will even give it a second glance(particularly if it's in the back of a ute).

Three,
Perhaps that is where they got the idea for the X-Net from? A whole mess of barbed wire would be rather good, but I can see
problems in getting a long enough length to tangle round anything, whilst still allowing deployment.
JamesyBHOY,
I have that stuff in my tyres, and it does do the biz! This is why the police in the UK, in a lot of areas, use it. It stops caltrops,
etc. Also, there are semi-solid rubber inserts, and various other tricks to stop tyre deflation ruining your day.
Further up I suggested a solution wherein the plates stayed attached to the tyre, unbalancing it and destroying the road
holding.
Having said that, the caltrop made by Ammonnal is chuffing huge! I doubt any tyre sealant could cope with a hole that big...
Having said that, I doubt many APCs could climb over one of those!
JoeJablomy February 1st, 2004, 03:25 AM

What if you closed off one end of a 10 ft. water hose, filled it with blasting gel, and screwed a hydrostatic fuze on the other
end? For the fuze I'm thinking of a cylinder that screws onto the hose on one end and has the other end closed with a fixed
firing pin and a small vent hole. The detonator is a piston that sits on the gel and has a primary pellet on the air side to hit
the pin, and a BC or an RDX pellet to initiate the gel going through the center of the piston. For long storage, the piston would
have O-rings to seal the gel in, and a spring srtong enough to separate the piston from the pin until at least 200 lbs of
pressure is applied to the hose. An additional safety device would be a pin that restrains the piston and sits between the firing
pin and the primer pellet.
Granted, this would get ATFE called, but it would definitely say "Fuck Off" to anyone folowing you louder than caltrops. It would
probably also do more than a few hundred $ damage.
Spartin13 February 1st, 2004, 01:18 PM

i hope that this helps. i was in the equipment rental busness. We had tire sealent in our equipment. On test of the sealent
Bobcat mini loaders were used (due to use on construction sites) the test was the following: a 2x12 x8' with appox 500 16
penny spikes (about 1/4" diam.) after driving over forward and reverce tire held. Most sealents are very good to 1/4" and
would probley hold with a few 1/2" (good sealents also use fiber to help plug holes) I would really concider 9/16-5/8 thick
walled tubing. it would punch much bigger hole and discharge too quickly for sealent to hold.hope this helps
PHAID February 1st, 2004, 07:20 PM

They also use what is called solid tires which have a foam interior and wont go flat no matter what you do.
I have seen pick heads and parts of driveshafts punched through those tires and all you do is weld a chain to it and pull them
out with a forklift.
I doubt you will find tires like that on your average police, military cars but it is possible.
JamesyBHOY February 2nd, 2004, 11:53 PM
Yeah i think those tyres are just used in the newest armoured vehicles,that only heads of state or royalty could afford.Instead
i would guess military or only special police divisions like anti-terrorist or firearms officers would have something like i put in
my last post to protect their vehicles tyres.Ordinary police no chance of having that( at least not here in the UK anyway)they
just have the exact same as all of us and can be put out by spikes by their own colleagues,that's why the car that is going to
deploy them always goes up ahead,deploys them then get's it back out of the way incase it takes out any of the cops cars.Shit
police here won't even ram you unless it's last chance saloon,as they are warned about damaging a 40,000 police car,s the
forces in the UK don't have the budget for it and can't afford to unnecessarily have a write off of a police car caused by some
policeman in a moment of hastiness.
Jacks Complete February 19th, 2004, 06:51 PM

JamesyBHOY,
did you not read my post earlier on in this thread?
I stated as fact, because it is a fact, that the police in Leicestershire, at the very least, have anti-deflation tyre sealant in the
tyres. :confused:
The reason the police don't drive over Stingers is because would you waste your time potentially trashing your tyres, damaging
the Stinger, and possibly risking your collegues lives by leaving the damned thing in the road?
Or would you pull the wire to bring it back neatly, put it back in your boot, and continue the chase?
As for making your own tyres foam filled, you can do it with a can of foam from B&Q, but it will fuck up the quality of your ride!
Foam filled zero-presure tyres don't work like pneumatic ones, as they aren't a nice springy tyre to absorb road bumps any
more. You can also get solid rubber rings that go round the wheel rim to stop the tyre from coming off the rim, which stops
you having to worry about running on flat tyres at speed.
jojo7 March 3rd, 2004, 12:49 AM

I OCR'ed one of my old books (It's from the PMJB2. NBK) that has a page on this. This will save you a lot of time. Ill put this
easy one on this page.
http://www.flube.com/users/jojo7/pic4.jpg
A Caltrop like device that requires no welding or bending can be constructed from short sections of pipe and six bolts and nuts.
If welding equipment is available,the same .'device can be constructed using six large nails. The advantage of this type of
caltrop is that several of the units can be strung onto a chain or cable. This assembly can be stretched across a roadway and
anchored to solid material,i.e.boulders, trees, wrecked vehicles,etc, at each end. The road can be reopened only by cutting the
chain or cable with a torch or bolt cutters. The personnel attempting to remove the obstacle are again open to sniper fire.
The pipe caltrop is constructed follows. The measurements can be altered to suit the materials on hand, Each individual
caltro p is made from a s ix in ch long section of 1 diameter p ipe, and six 3" bolts w/nuts.
A. Drill 6 sets of holes through the pipe, in 3 rows of 2 holes each.Pipe will contain total of 12 holes. ie, six sets of holes on
set for each bolt(see drawing).
B.Use a grinder or file to sharpen the ends of the bolts.
C. Pass the bolts through the holes and install and tighted the nuts.
D. If welding equipment is availible large nails may be installed in the holes and welded into place
Jacks Complete March 16th, 2004, 07:51 PM

Top tip for removal of the above - hook it to the back of your truck (or loop a rope or chain round it) and drive away, and you
will soon move it!
For closing a road, I would go for a large number of designs, including some nice flat ones, with contact adhesive on them, or
some kind of design like a double ended nail, which would be power hammered into the road, (wrecking the tarmac too) so
they can't be street sweepered up - a few explosive ones should slow that down even further.
nbk2000 March 17th, 2004, 01:52 AM

If the chain or cable is strong enough, and the anchor strong too, than a vehicle isn't going to be able to remove it, especially
if the chain is pretensioned so there's no slack and is of a short length.
I recently found a patent that caught my interest. It involves using layers of sheet explosive, interleaved with highly expanded
foam sheeting, to form "switchable" ERA that is non-explosive until "switched on" by compressing it to remove the air gaps
created by the foam, and being non-explosive the rest of the time because the explosive sheets are thinner than their
minimum propagation thickness otherwise.
:)
How this applies here is to use the same concept, only having a small detonator circuit built into it, so that, when driven over,
the device becomes explosive when the device is compressed, at which point a few nails on the inner face of one side of the
device pierce through the sheets until the contact the other side of the device, completing the circuit and BOOM!
:D
By making it so that many pounds of pressure are required to crush the device, you can carry around a fully-armed AV mine
without extreme risk, ready for instant deployment, as even premature activation of the detonator is harmless as long as the
device isn't compressed, as the explosive sheeting is too thin to propagate the explosion across the foam airgaps to
transistion to a full detonation.
Same principle may find use in AP mines.
These aren't road spikes, though, so sorry for going OT. ;)

NBK,
If the chain was that strong, mount it at sitting head height, and you are talking lethal effect without explosives, even through
the windscreen!
I thought about using a flat sheet of explosive for an area denial device, with the plastic explosive rolled out into a thin sheet
that will just propagate. Adding the "pressure switch" into it is a stroke of genius, though! You could easily design it so that the
whole mat was split into two, with a sheet of foam in the middle, in much the same way as a pressure mat for an alarm
system. Use metallic/conductive parts on some of the areas that will touch when the mat to trodden on, and pass a current
through that to the detonator(s), which then blows up the entire sheet. One sheet is thick enough plastic explosive, the other
would be tinfoil or whatever.
With your design, only the part that was being trodden on would be able to explode, so you would need a detonator at that
exact spot. I think the point of the ERA being made like that is that the impact sets the ERA off at the point of impact, but
nowhere else, so that the armour continues to protect. If you got it just right, however, it would be something akin to an
everlasting landmine! :)
My idea was to use the sheet for protection against SWAT or whatever. Wait till they are all in the hallway, and frag the very
floor they are standing on. I suspect the near-field pressure wall would shatter bones and break the mind! It was to be
command detonated, though.
Not quite a caltrop, but certainly anti-feet!
nbk2000 March 18th, 2004, 03:12 AM

You're obviously misunderstanding what I wrote.
Look at US Patent #6619181, look at the pictures, read the patent, then understand.
The WHOLE thing explodes once compressed, not just a part, just like I described.
Ropik April 4th, 2004, 05:38 PM

I made some workable caltrops few moths ago, using low tech tools - hacksaw, vise, hammer, pliers, file. I took iron rod 8
mm square and 12 cm long, saw both end by 4 cm, bent it away and sharpen with file. When you have bench grinder or drill
grinding wheel, you should use it, because hand filing tips on this take ages and is very boring.
Conclusion: everything for this type of caltrop is widely available, but both sawing and sharpening takes huge amount of time.
When you are experienced and equipped with grinder, you can make one caltrop in one quarter of hour. Using concreting
mesh will be much faster. I am going to try this idea.
Jacks Complete April 6th, 2004, 09:31 AM

NBK,
regardless of what the patent may or may not say, I cannot see why anyone would want ERA that explodes over a volume
area, and not just at the point of impact.
If you did it that way, you only have one protective blast, rather than many, and a far bigger shock to your tank, etc. than
otherwise. Also, if the explosive sheet will not propagate the explosion beyond where the two sheets are pressed together, how
can the bulk of it which is not in contact with the other sheet explode?
Ropik,
with a vice, hammer, and disc cutter, you could produce about one per minute out of concreting mesh. Chop a whole load of
Xs, then batter each one in the vice with a hammer. Actually, a bending tube would be more use and faster. I can see 30 in
half an hour being done. If you had to weld steel bar, I would say perhaps one every 3 minutes, as you would have to have
some sort of jig, fire the welder, etc. An assembly line would at least mean you didn't have to wait while the first cooled.
Cut the bar/grill at about 45 degrees so you don't need to waste time sharpening it. The heat from cutting will harden the tips,
too. Don't forget, the wheels and feet aren't going to care whether it is 45 or 15 degrees.
In other news, I was inspired the other day. A sort of mantrap design would be good for stopping car tyres, regardless of
design, runflat, etc. As long as you knew the direction of travel, it should work.
Imagine, if you will, a modified mantrap design, where the jaws come in more parallel, and are designed to bite into the
sidewall of the tyre, gripping it tightly. On a normal tyre, it would rip it off totally, leaving a fairly shredded tyre behind, even
with anti-puncture fluid. On a solid tyre, foam filled for example, it would grip and tear, and then lift the device off the ground
so that is slams into the bodywork, hopefully tearings large chunks out of the tyre. The same for the designs with hard rubber
inserts or load bearing sidewalls (assuming the device was strong enough to penetrate in the first place)
Bert April 6th, 2004, 03:24 PM

Here's an interesting little pocket sized product I found last weekend. These could be easily made from roll pins sharpened on
a grinder and pieces of old car tires...

Bert, is that "stowed" and "deployed"?
rather neat, but how is it self-righting? Is it designed for parking lots or banks or something, rather than a throw-down?
Bert April 7th, 2004, 07:49 PM

Bert, is that "stowed" and "deployed"?
rather neat, but how is it self-righting? Is it designed for parking lots or banks or something, rather than a throw-down?
The one in back is stowed, the one in front is deployed. The instructions are to place one in front and one in back of a parked
car's tires.
This isn't a scatterable item as sold- More like a "pocket stop stick".

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > new generation of handguns
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View Full Version : new generation of handguns
twinkle September 20th, 2001, 10:09 AM

this seems to be the new generation of handguns electronically firing multiple bullets in a split second
http://www.odwyer-smartgun.com/main.html
SawedOff8gaugeman September 20th, 2001, 01:47 PM

That seems to be crap. Just some gearhead trying to steal your money with a complete piece of shit. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif Traditional guns
offer the same firepower, probably more "stopping power" and work better. Additionally, they are much finer artifacts http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/cool.gif
btw, I don't consider this as something which belongs in the "improvised weapons".
J September 20th, 2001, 02:31 PM

I wouldn't buy one until it's tried and tested for reliability. It may have no moving parts, but traditional automatics have been tried and tested for many decades, whereas this
one hasn't.
The increased ammo capacity is a good feature though, assuming it's as powerful.
Moving to misc...
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PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)

Well apparently some countries are considering this technology. I haven't found anything explaining it well yet. But the 3 second shot burst in 1/500th of a sec has promise. If
this technology is robust and has long battery life (10,000 rounds or about a month) then I can see it being used if the rounds are marginally effective and can penetrate body
armor.
Predator September 20th, 2001, 08:35 PM

actually they're not new, they've been around for a good couple of years
theres a thread floating around about this somewhere
[This message has been edited by Predator (edited September 20, 2001).]
-A- September 21st, 2001, 02:44 AM

Mhhh, I heard of this kind of guns before too. Looks like they have had no success.
SawedOff8gaugeman September 21st, 2001, 09:44 AM

Some day their attributes might be equal to conventional handguns, but... They
-would surely still cost a lot more
-would be a very commercial product, not even nearly easily improvisable.
Magazine(=barrel) changing would be much slower, no doubt.
Tri-burst at high rpm/rof... not so unusual in conventional handguns, for example in Glock 18(about 1500 rpm, do I remember that correctly?)... Of course the Glock has a lot
slower that an electronic one is able to have, but I still assume the performance cannot differ so much. (You can even reload "Tri-burst" or at least 2-burst ammo for some
semi guns and revolvers (for example .357 mag and 2 pcs 9 mm buckshot balls) with lead balls. This is of course poor in armor penetration)
Cartridge capacity of 20, 40 or 60 wouldn't be any kind of a miracle, as modern full sized handguns have 15-20 and 30 hicaps. By always keeping a normal magazine attached
and possibly also 30rd hicap(s) available, firepower doesn't differ so much...
Cartridge manufacturers would nowadays ban handloading if they could. That kind of ammo system would presumably allow this http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
mad.gif.
And finally, during a war/crisis or "the Day of Wrath"http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif getting ammo would be a pain in the ass! http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif
...just like getting any uncommon-calibered cartrigdes during a similar situation. Always remember: stick together with .22lr, .223, .308, .50BMG, 9mmPb, .45ACP and 12,
children http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
(Hey folks, at least I'm not claiming I invented that myself! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif)
[Typoed badly...]
[This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited September 21, 2001).]
twinkle September 22nd, 2001, 06:18 AM

I only thought that it would be of interest while the concept of this gun, several bullets in a smooth bore barrel which are fired electronically (no difficult moving parts to make)
can be a concept of an improvised gun for short range. I have seen last year a test on Discovery TV to only that was not a gun but alot of barrels mounted together the firing
rate was indeed devastating which will give a high impact on a target just like the gatling-gun
AR-15 Man September 23rd, 2001, 12:43 AM

Well I saw how the guns works and yea slow reloads. What about a sub gun that kinda looks like a revolver. Say each barrel holds 15 and you have 4 barrels and it turns so
you can insert them kinda like an old single action revolver. That would be a useable system. But as for hand guns and rifles I don't see any real advantage.
HMTD Factory October 1st, 2001, 03:46 PM

Remember the old "Metal Storm"? Destroys a shack in one blow, very neat. But handguns?
This(hand gun) is one example that an inventor tries to sell what he/she thinks people will buy, instead of what people needed.
But the rig has its own advantage, and most gunfight ended after no more than 20 rounds.
angelo October 1st, 2001, 08:20 PM

here is metal storms website:
http://www.metalstorm-ltd.com/
they research posible solutions to weapons that do not have any moving parts.
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Bert May 1st, 2004, 11:13 PM

Metal Storm is moving ahead with a few projects that US DOD is interested in... A nice little weaponized small UAV (http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/dragonfly-uav-now-
equipped-with-metal-storm-technology-015778.php) , and a 4 shot replacement for the current single shot under barrel mounted 40mm grenade launcher used by the US
army. To hell with the "smart gun", use electronic firing where it makes sense. Who wants a hand gun that doesn't fire if it has a computer crash!
john_smith May 3rd, 2004, 06:20 AM

Might work for making a multiple shot pen gun, but you'd have to acommodate the batteries and electronics somewhere in there too... As for "real" guns, the unequal effective
barrel lenghts would cause the point of impact to shift with each shot.
aikon May 3rd, 2004, 06:35 AM

I wouldn't trust my life to a gun of that kind. As the first cars appeared nearly everybody doubted that these "moving things" could replace the horse. Maybe we're wrong with
such kinds of guns.
Jacks Complete May 3rd, 2004, 07:07 PM

I question how Metal Storm got a patent on the basic idea of lots of projectiles, each with a charge, in one barrel. Consider the Roman Candle, at least 1000 years old... The
cake fireworks have a multishot, multiprojectile system... So there is your prior art!
The main problems with this system are:
Short barrel is inaccurate (early shots)

Need a long heavy barrel to stack ammo in
Later shots have more crud and barrel to get through (slower)
No chance to reload
Possibility of flash-over
Dead batteries mean dead you!
That's just off the top of my head.
Bert May 4th, 2004, 02:02 AM

I question how Metal Storm got a patent on the basic idea of lots of projectiles, each with a charge, in one barrel. Consider the Roman Candle
I believe the patents are on the inductive, through the barrel firing mechanism and the seals that prevent the first load fired from igniting the propellant of the subsequent
load(s).
The advantages of the system as I see it are:

Light weight, non-metalic barrel.
No weight of breech mechanism, magazine mechanism, cartridge transport mechanism, cartridge cases (the ammunition is essentialy caseless.)
The lack of mechanical intermediary in electronicay directed firing situations- Why have your computer controling a solenoid actuating a mechanical trigger?
The extremely high rates of fire possible, especialy without the large motor/drive weights and huge electrial power requirements of minigun type systems.
Roman candles may be made to fire serial shots to the same trajectory by careful regulation of the powder charge, decreasing charge as barrel length increases. I would bet
the Metal Storm system will be so regulated.
The hadgun version is not going anywhere in the short term- I would bet the 40 mm systems will be in the hands of troops for various applications within 2 years.
One of the more interesting thingys I've heard of is a 4 shot 40 mm grenade launcher tube to replace the single shot 40 mm under barrel launcher you see various troops using
on M-16's and such. Instead of reloading 4 times, you fire 4 as fast as you can pull the trigger and then stick a new pre-loaded tube on your weapon and drop the disposable
empty.
Coming to a quagmire near you soon...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Therm i t e C a b l e
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green beret D e c e m ber 14th, 2002, 12:23 AM

Another Idea I had:
Take some clear plastic tubing (the fle xible typ e) the thickness will depend on the application of the device , plug one end with
epoxy resin and/or slicon sealant then fill the tubing with therm ite, then on the other end pack a little bit of tissue paper or
cotton wool on top of the therm ite followed by epoxy resin and silicon.
This would id ealy be m a d e i n 1 m etre lengths, or shorter, it could then be slipped down the front of your jacket or whatever, for
easy access.
To ignite, place a small therm ite or other igniter charge, at the desired point of ignition and fire.
The applications for this are pretty obvious, cutting odd shaped targets, such as pipe, sm all girders etc. or you could tie up
your hostages with it and tell them if they move, you burn their hands and feet off :rolleyes:
I havent tried this yet but I have the m aterials for it, I'll let you all know of the re sults when I get around to it.
NOTE: Something sim ilar to this may have been discussed before, but never the sam e as this device.
DarkAngel D e c e m ber 15th, 2002, 05:49 PM

I always have the fee ling that people think that Therm ite is som ekind of super powder that will burn trough almost anything.
I f o n e w o u l d m a k e t h e by you described device and wrap it around a norm all copper water pipe or other m etal object that's not
to thin and ignite it, It wouldn't even destroy th e object in a sm all way.
<sm all>[ Decem b e r 1 5 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 4 : 5 2 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : D a r k A n g e l ] < / s m all>
kingspaz D e c e m ber 15th, 2002, 06:34 PM

if yo u used a hose pipe filled with therm ite then you could go through a m m o r s o p r o b a b l y . c o u l d m a k e q u i t e a m ess of a car.
i don't think its much use for wrapping around things but for cutting a shape out of a metal sheet (car bonnet, roof, etc) it
could have potential.
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 15th, 2002, 11:49 PM

Y o u ' d h a v e t o b o u n d t h e p o w d e r i n s o m e way so it won't pour out of the hose once it starts burning. Unless you're only
intending to use it on flat surfaces only.

O K I g u e s s t h e r e s s o m e points I didnt notice, but I still think it could have som e u s e s , a n d with some im provem ents (like NBK
m entioned)it m ay even work better, oh well it was just a thought anyway. As kingspaz said, it would still have som e u s e s o n
flat sheet m etal surfaces. And like I said, the diam eter of the tu bing will depend on your application, so darkangel, you cant
say it wont destroy a norm al copper water pipe, because you dont know what diam eter tub ing I would be using.
Flake2m D e c e m ber 16th, 2002, 07:00 AM

T h e m a i n p r o b l e m with the binder is that it has to still b ind at high tem peratures. You couldn't use Plaster of paris because
that would limit its fle xibility.
M a y b e y o u d o n t n e e d a b i n d e r . I t h o u g h t t h a t m aybe you could have the therm ite enclosed in a m etal sleeve or som e sort of
m e t a l h o s e . T h e h o s e s h o u l d r e s i s t t h e h i g h t e m peratures long enough for the therm ite to do its job. :)
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 16th, 2002, 07:40 AM

Silicon rubber might use usable. Or m a y b e o n e of energetic binders available for making high-perform ance rocket motors, like
pyro -tek.
DarkAngel D e c e m ber 16th, 2002, 11:23 AM

Even if you would fill a hose with a diam eter of let's say 2.5/3 cm and fill it with Thermite it wouldn't do anything (and not to
m ention the thicker the wall is the m ore burned carbonized plastic slag you get)and how b igger the diameter of the hose how
l e s s f l e x i b l e i t b e c o m e s a n d t h a t r e m o ves the purpose of wrapping it around odd shaped targets.
I know that it would b e great to have something like that but it wouldn't work.
mongo blongo D e c e m ber 16th, 2002, 11:32 PM

I rem ember reading (aaaaageesss ago) on this military type of web site. It was this stuff called "blade" that the army use (like
therm ite). It was this green shit that was applied out of this tooth paste kind of container. It had p ics of this steel tube (a fe w
m m thick) with this stuff applied to it in a spiral shape with two circles on each side and a pic of the tube after it had been
ignited (no d etails of ignition)and it cut the tube to pieces. It was applied is a line about 4mm thick.
I can't find the site (keep com ing up with blade the film ) but I know it so unds like BS. This was a VERY long time ago and this
thread rem in d e d m e of it. I am not sure of it was BS or not but I thought I would mention it just in case anyone knows about it.
DBSP D e c e m ber 17th, 2002, 04:57 AM

I don't know if this has been m entioned but ho w excactly are you going to hold the tube in place? If you tie a knot on the hose
it will fall off when the therm ite reaches the knot or when it has burned the hose off.
It shure sounds like a good idea but I doubt it's possible to produce a thing like this that actually workes.
jimwig D e c e m ber 21st, 2002 , 03:27 PM
couldn' you just use some det cord?
m akes a lot of noise but satisfaction g u a r a n t e e d .
therm it would melt (5 000o) or burn the target object

detcord (PETN) would make two of one instantly

I have used detcord and obviously you havent, it wont cut through every target you encounter, so saying th at it would be a
good replace ment for therm ite is wrong. Yes its true that detcord slices instantly but on larger targets you would have to use an
absolute shitload , besides, it wasnt designed solely to be used as a cutting charge, it was designed for sim ultaniou s
d e t o n a t i o n o f e x p l o s i v e c h a r g e s . O h and by the way, it dosent m a k e a l o t o f n o i s e , i t m a k e s a n a b s o l u t e f u cking shitload of
noise, so unless youre cutting small trees down out bush then its im practicle, unless you could muffle the noise, which in itself
would be highly impractical.
Boob Raider May 13th, 2003, 02:51 PM

could be C r2O 3 b a s e d i n s t e a d o f F e 2 O 3. I don't quite k now the advantage of it but I know of Cr2O 3 b e i n g u s e d t o s u b s i t u t e
Fe2O3 in the rm ite.
Anyways .... I was wondering how m uch heat would a teflon and Al m ix produce in comparison to therm ite. W h a t I h a d i n m i n d
w a s m a k i n g a k i n d o f m ultilayered fuse with teflon tape and Al foil strips. this would not need any sleve and would be flexible
enough to cut weird shapes. Q uestion is ... would it be hot enough ? I su spect a fuse with a dia of 4mm s h o u l d b e h o t e n o u g h
to cut through regular household window panes. This wo uld be a really quite way of entering into a house (Can't use the word
" B r e a k I n " a n y m o r e ) . A l t h o u g h I d o h a v e s o m e testing to do first.

Oh, com e o n Boob raider, use your nut. The thermal shock would smash the wind ow into thousands of tiny pieces. Easier to
use a brick :p . If you don't want the n oise all you do is cover the window with a piece of newspaper soaked in honey (or
s o m ething else wet and sticky), and then apply the brick.
SATA NIC May 25th, 2003, 03:32 AM

I can't im agine what the cops would be thinking when confrom ted with a broken window, dirty newspaper, and honey all over
the window sill. Just u se duct tape, or if you can be bothered, bo ok covering 'contact', that clear (or cartoon print) film for
protecting yo ur school books. break window (or cut around the edge and lift out,) and the window com es away easily. if / when
it breaks, all the pieces stay stuck to the dust tape / contact.
Anyway, about the thermite cable, how about adding the thermite to silicone while it's wet, and then putting it back into the
tube, to be able to extrude out a thin line of th erm ite 'gel'. you can cut the nozzle of the silicone tube at an angle, and closer
t o t h e b a s e , s o y o u g et between 1m m a n d 1 c m thick strands, depending on the application.
If you prepare it, and use it within a day or so, you could apply it straight to your target, a nd allow it to dry on, so no worries
about how to attatch it.
The thermite would be fairly thick, as in when m ixing, add just enough silicone to binc the therm ite togethe r. Another idea
m ight be to run a strip of m a g n e s i u m ribbon in to the extruded line of ge l, thus m a k i n g l i g h t i n g t h e m i x e a s i e r , a n d m a k i n g
sure of a fast / contiuous burn.
Because it's wet on application, you can always smear it across a target, though I don't kn ow how well a thin layer would affect
whatever might be yo ur target at the time. chances are, not m uch. The g ood point there is, you can always apply it as thick as
you need it, so more is easy. if the first burn fails, apply more, and try again !
Anyway, any ideas ? I can't try it with current resources, but if som eone can, I'd like to know how it burns in the silicone, dried /
wet.
Mr Cool May 25th, 2003, 08:49 AM

I've recently been wanting to m ake a fuse for hard-to-ignite sub tsances, such as thermite or other comps based on Al (which
m ay be coarse, or paint grade) and weak oxidisers such as iron oxide or potassium nitrate, etc.
O n e i d e a I h a d t a k e s i n s p i r a t i o n f r o m PIC. In this, a NC (I think ) b a s e d c o m position is coated onto a fine wire core, and the
whole is then coated in plastic sleeving. It is my understanding that the wire core is for heat conduction, to keep the NC
m ixture burn ing even ly and consistently.
Early experim ents with mixtures such as the castable plaster incendiary showed that in very thin lin es, it is prone to going out
as the burning m ixture/slag drops off, before it has a chance to ignite the next bit in the line. So, what about coating the
m ixture onto s o m e c. 1m m copper wire? Maybe this would allow enough heat to conduct up the wire to keep it burning evenly?
I'm going to try it. I will make the plaster incen diary with some binder (PVA glue?), to help keep it on the wire, and when it's
dry I'll probably coat it in some m ore glue. W h a t I a m a i m ing fo r is like a sparkler, but without the sparks.
nbk2000 May 25th, 2003, 10:26 PM

S o m e pyro fuses use a copper wire in the center to prevent "hea t death" (sputtering out), so how about using a thin strand of
copper wire down the middle of a large straw, and filling that with a rubber cement/plaster incendiary m i x ? T h e n k , o n c e c u r e d ,
you can cut off the straw, and have a flexible igniter. :)
0EZ0 May 26th, 2003, 12:55 AM

S o u n d s l i k e y o u g u y s n e e d s o m e t h e r m alite for those stubborn pyrotechnic compositions ;) . A variation of this can be m a d e
acco rding to the instructions found on Dan W illiam s ' p y r o p a g e :
http://userpages.prexar.com /dwilliam s m a i n e / t h e r m a l i t e / t h e r m a l i t e . h t m l
I have seen a type of waterproof therm alite fuse. This therm alite had the professional loo k of com m e r c i a l g r a d e f u s e . I t h a d a
1 . 5 m m d i a m eter and was quite flexible and held whatever shape you bent it into. The fuse comp itself was perchlorate base d I
a s s u m e . T he c or e had le n g th s of w i r e wr a ppe d di a g on al l y a ro und i t , s uppo s edl y f o r go o d hea t di s t ri but i o n a nd a n even , stead y
burn. The fuse was finished by a layer of thin, coloured plastic twine. The f u s e b u r n e d h o t e n o u g h t o i g n i t e t h e m o s t s t u b b o r n
of com positions.
Thermalite can be improvised quite readily, allowing that you have the proper ma terials at hand. Y ou will have to select a slow
burning, easy to ignite comp to use for the thermalite. For details, see the page listed above.
THe_rEaL_dEaL Novem ber 8th, 2003, 05:18 PM

Has anone seen the half circle shaped rings that are used to hold the lids on the big blue drum s of chem i c a l s . T h e y h a v e a
lever device which when pivoted pasta point holds thering tight a nd the half circle shape holds a lid to a lip on the barrel.
Anyway I know gal steelrings are usless for holding burning therm ite but an equivilant ring m a d e o ut of f ceram ic material
could be filled with thermite and the lever ccould cling it to say a pipe eg barrel is round so pipes would ba a logical
progression.
A posible way to hold the therm ite m aterial in contact with the pipe/circular object
Thermie could do its thing and the ceram ic device could withstan d t h e h e a t p r o d u c e d .
The metal ring used on barrels could be replica t e d o r s c a l e d u p / d o w n a n d u s e d a s a m ould for the clay ring. To fashion eyelets
at the point alont the ring where the tension device would be som e solid tube cou ld have clay molded around it. the unfired
clay dries and the tube is pulled out. A strip of the sam e ceram ic could be fashioned with two holes in it and the laterl ring of
wire which pivots between the lever and the ring could be fashioned to apply the holding tension to the pipe.
the ring could be m ade with a larger radius half circle at top to allow gases to acum ulate a n d s o m e holes filled with lead could
m elt wwith th e heat early on in the process and the gasse would be relea sed. The purpose of the lead to stop it from g o i n
everywhere when in transit to object for cutting. A masking tape stip could be wraped around the ring to hold the therm ite in
place when in transit or alt a plaster/Al cast cou ld be m oulded in to the concave side of the tube th e n s o m e strips of tape or
s o m e glue could hold the m ould in pla ce in transit.
I'm really sleepy so I cant be stuffed finishing this, thinking, anym ore your comm ents crticism wou l d b e a p p r e c i a t e d
McGyver Novem ber 8th, 2003, 08:46 PM

I n s t e a d o f t h e h o s e t y p e o f t h e r m ite idea, how about m a k i n g s o m e k i n d o f t h e r m ite torch . That way you can cut through
anything withough the wraping idea. How about puting some therm ite in a pipe , when its light tilt it against what ever your
plaing to cut. The powder will fall against the object and cut it, the only problem is it will be melting the pipe also.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > DNA Camouflage
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Arkangel December 23rd, 2002, 10:56 PM

I was impressed and interested by Dunkelmann's post in the Fake ID's thread regarding genetic camouflage. People suggested a new thread on the topic, but I don't remember
seeing one. If one exists and I've missed it, could a mod bin this one? Ta.
In essence, he talked about producing a mass of random genetic material to swamp a crime scene, making it harder to identify a single suspect - you.....
To illustrate it, I'll use a comment from NBK, and suggest that you go to a hairdresser's and collect hair from people for an entire week - hundreds of people's hair. Then, chuck
it all in a ball mill or large blender, and make a fine powder. You could then get this genetic "soup" and dust the entire scene with it. Obviously this would not help if you were
to bleed, spit, ejaculate, amputate a limb or otherwise leave a different sample, but I'd be very interested to know what people think, what they know about forensic science
practices and techniques.
Dunkelmann December 23rd, 2002, 11:19 PM

dropping some cigarette filters on the scene of the crime collected from a public astray will keep the investigators busy.
A public toilet might be a good source for pubic hair, investigators love to find them on certain scenes of crime.
Also collect textile fibres of all kinds and spread them.
creating thousands of traces will make it nearly impossible to find out the real evidence.
spydamonkee December 24th, 2002, 01:57 AM

this is a very good idea and would combined with many of the other well thort out ideas could build upto someone comitting the perfect crime... which we would never hear of
as the only person who would know the perfect crime was committed would be the perpurtraitor. (sp?)
could see someone these ideas coming to use someday ... to someone...who is dreaming :D

This is really quite brilliant, the forensic team cant run DNA tests on every bit of hair......I wonder what they would do? Give up? Or just not use genetic evidence for that
particular crime? I would most certainly save your skin. Or your hair... :p

They don't have to test every little snippet of hair. All they have to do is find the ONE hair that's different from the others.
For instance, when hairs are pulled out by force (like victim grabbing it), it usually comes out with the follicle still attached to the root of the hair.
Hair that's been collected from the barbershop isn't too likely to have that follicle since the hair is either already detached, or cut off.
This is the difference that could nail you.
Any hair that you collect from the barber would have to be sorted to extract out only those hairs that either have the follicle still attached, or are uncut.
THESE hairs would then be useful to clutter up a crime scene.
As for fibers, that's as near as the lint trap at an apartment complexes driers. You'd then have to seperate the lint matt to get seperated fibers to use. I'd think agitation in
detergent water would loosen it up enough so it could be dried out into a fluffy mass.
Where could you get large amounts of skin flakes though? I'm thinking a gym, tanning salon, massusse, or something has to have a large number of people getting nekk'd and
shedding skin.
This would make a great product for Lockdown! DNA and Fiber "chaff" kits. Random hair, skin, blood, fiber, and "other" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif"
/> fluids would be available to confuse a CSI and make their lives harder.
Think they could prosecute that? No laws against sales of "forensic test samples" that I'm aware of. :D
It's not MY fault if some scumbag criminal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> used my scientific samples to escape conviction for his dastardly crime! :p
Now, the chaff idea might work to prevent DNA testing from being performed simply because of the cost of testing dozens, or hundreds, of samples could be prohibitive for a
small community.
However, I believe the FBI has offered to do it for free for any county that can't afford to do it themselves.
So, you could very likely still get nailed on DNA, but then they'd have to have spent many times more than they otherwise would have, thus decreasing the number of test
they can do later on.
If every crim did this, then it'd simply overwhelm the DNA labs, making it almost useless to bother with it. Unfortunately, not too many crims have brains. :(
Then again, if you had a broad enoguh sample range, there'd likely be at least one other person who's DNA profile is on record somewhere. This throws up the element of
doubt.
If there was a particular person you were after, you may wish to target their family, friends, and co-workers for samples.
The vast majority of homicides are committed by someone the victim knew. What better way to throw the pigs off your scent than to play up to their expectations (RTPB
Patterns).
Give them plenty of the spouses DNA in the form of a "pulled" hair clutched in the corpses hand, saliva on the eyelids, or some other "Only the Killer could have left that there"
evidence. :)

One could certainly make the case, at least to a jury, that the presence of hundreds or thousands of hair samples is just too much to possibly draw a definite conclusion from
even though the only one with epithelials was yours. Making a blended powder wouldnt work in this case if yours is the only actual hair at the scene. A salon need not
include just cut hair, they also do a bit of combing and are not very gentle at some places, plenty of good DNA stock should also be in with the cut hair. Its at least a good
defense in court.
Another good court trick is to demand a speedy trial, Americans have that right. If the crime scene guys have to comb through hundreds of hairs (a bad pun I know) to get to
yours, your trial can be well over with. This would work if the cops quickly grab you on some fishing expedition with circumstantial evidence. They know the good forensic
evidence is on its way and all they have to do is hold you. Most people want to delay a trial as long as possible, but if you force them into a trial they are not prepared for that
is your right.
One could stake out snatch waxers for good samples of pubes, I dont know whether to be disgusted or aroused by that. Lint traps are also good sources of hair, a two for one
DNA and random fiber deal. A place for skin samples might be the thrown away paper towels in a rest room. Saliva samples should be on every straw in every fast food
resturant in the world, check their garbage.
Does anyone think hospitals may be a good way to get blood samples? I dont know if they leave their trash unguarded or not, but one of those sharps containers should
have plenty of blood. Just dissolve it, water perhaps, and spray all over the scene. I am sure a tenacious person could abscond with plenty of hospital garbage, it cant be that
secure.
Anyone care to hazard sources for sperm samples?
[ December 26, 2002, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: megalomania ]
Mr Cool December 26th, 2002, 09:33 AM

Rob a sperm bank?
I wonder, if you had just one type of foreign DNA, but lots of it, if you totally soaked the entire scene in it would the forensics people still be able to detect your DNA?

I read that scientists are interested in splicing in segments of human DNA into mice to conduct studies with them.
Naturally the fearful peasents...I mean sheeple...uh, I mean public <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> raised a stink about "Frankenstein" mice. They
actually came up with the absurd scenario of a mouse the produces human sperm mating with a mouse that produces human eggs :rolleyes: as a reason why we shouldn't do
so.
However, human/animal chimeras are going to happen eventually. I could envision a cow that produces human saliva by the bucketful. Or, perhaps horses/bulls that produce
human sperm by the bucketful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
This is all rather fanciful at the moment, but technology marches on.
When nanotech is advanced enough, you could even change your DNA, becoming, literally, a new person.
Labs don't examine the entire DNA chain. Rather, they look for specific segments, the pattern of these segments being unique to evey human. If you knew what parts of the
DNA that the labs look for, you could purchase those components commercially, and use these to create a DNA smoke screen.
Then, even if they do all the tests, and do find your DNA pattern, you could always argue that the results are invalid since the needed parts to make up ANY pattern where
present at the scene.
xoo1246 December 26th, 2002, 06:39 PM

Remove
russian_chemist December 26th, 2002, 08:31 PM

i think that the animal/human thing is good, like if you can get human blood from a pig for donor reasons and things like that.
The only thing wrong with what is being said here is that you have to assume you have enough time after such a crime has been committed to carefully place all that of what
you wish to place.
Whilst remembering that you can in no way contaminate the stuff that you are putting down in the scene of the crime is in no way contaminated with your dna, sweat etc etc.

I find the idea of using gummy fingerprints with photoshop created prints interesting. Use the gummy to leave the "suspects" bloody "finger" prints on everything you can find
(door knobs, light switches, windows, etc) so the piggies will be looking to match these prints to a person who doesn't exist.
Then, if any of your DNA is found, you can always argue reasonable doubt since none of your fingerprints where found on the scene in the victims blood. :)
Of course you wouldn't want to completely saturate the scene in an unnatural manner. You'd want to carefully place the DNA chaff in such a manner as to be as realistic as
possible.
Though I woulud certainly like to see the development of something you could spray or dust over a scene that would render DNA testing pointless or hopelessly expensive.
russian_chemist December 26th, 2002, 10:34 PM

thats a good point, but then think that it may be impractical to use something that costs as much as you are going to steal
BrAiNFeVeR December 27th, 2002, 05:02 AM

Who are you to put a price on a human life ???
Anyway, DNA is an acid, so couldn't you just use a strong NaOH solution and soak it all ?
xoo1246 December 27th, 2002, 10:17 AM

Remove

The can do a profile with one picoliter of blood. Think a dot so small you can barely see it with the naked eye. 'Course, their problem would be to find such a tiny speck
amoungst pools of other blood. :)
As to where to get lots of human blood, that's simple. Go to the same place the plasma centers got to...skid row. Plenty of bums will sell you a liter for $40. You could probably
get it for less at night when the legit places are closed and the dregs of society are hurting for a fix of whatever they're hooked on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />
Same for "other" fluids, if you have the stomach to ask them for it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
I used the term "gummy" as a generic description of ALL fake fingerprints, whether gelatin or silicone.
Russkie & Brain, what are you two going on about? Hair and fibers are free for the taking, and nothing says the chaff is going to be used solely at a murder scene.
If you first chaffed the scene, then used your destruction spray, then that'd open up even more paths of reasonable doubt since you could argue that the REAL perpetrator
destroyed his own DNA, while leaving others (yours included) at the scene to throw the pigs off his scent. :D
Naturally, time is your enemy. If you don't have time to carefully arrange the scene with your fake DNA, then I'd have to go with destruction of the scene. Flood or fire are the
only sure ways to destroy it.
I'm sure most people here are familar enough with the mechanics of fire to do a proper arson job to reduce the scene to ash.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />And maybe they can do some
profiling on you(NBK?).<hr /></blockquote>What the hell does that mean? :confused:
And I already do subscribe to quite a number of police/criminalistics/forensics/etc bulletins and news lists. It's a major drag going through these things everyday, but I do it
because it's RTPB (subscribe...info) to do so.
russian_chemist December 27th, 2002, 10:46 AM

There are so many ways that they can get your deoxy-rybo-nuclaic Acid (sp?) that i dont think there is a possible way to irradicate it all is there?
Like i say earlier on, its the fact that you have to spend all that time doing it after the crime that will get you caught, and then they will interrogate you for twelve hours,
appeal for the 24 and then go for the chief Superintendant for the full 48 (i think thats the hierachy)
By that time with little sleep and mind tactics, you would have confessed
[ December 27, 2002, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: russian_chemist ]

Who can't go without sleep for 48hrs? Call human rights on them if you've been awake that long and can't stand it.
They can't break you with sleep deprevation, mind games or anything else if you do the wise thing and say absolutely FA until your laywer arrives. Then only speak through
them.
If you know the object of your crime, then you could plant a lot of chaff beforehand. Bloody fingerprints, and fluids on the body would obviously need to be done afterwards. I
don't see why you couldn't deposit hair and skin samples on visits for several weeks before.
The problem of using collected sperm might be that it's noticebly "old". If the sample was collected a few days after the crime then I'd expect the little critters to still be
swimming. The same would be true with blood.
Hair might be an exception, but I'd expect the folicle to gradually deteriorate if it was live when pulled.

That brings to mind the OJ Simpson trial where the defense experts said that traces of a preservative was found in the blood stains on the glove.
If you sprayed the crime scene with a preservative like EDTA, would it not be possible to bring up an OJ defense?
russian_chemist January 2nd, 2003, 10:13 AM

i think sperm can live for 2 hours (at most) outside the body...
Arkangel January 2nd, 2003, 01:29 PM

I hate to be the one to pick you up on this, but someone's going to anyway........
What has the survivability of sperm got to do with DNA?
Personally, I'm of the view that anyone involved in sex crime should have their genitals and hands cut off, but just because you shot your load across the floor more than 2
hours ago doesn't mean that you're going to get away with it.............. :rolleyes:
Anthony January 2nd, 2003, 02:56 PM

It's significant because any semen found at the scene (outside of a nice warm, wet body) should be dead if russian_chemist is correct. It'd be dead regardless of whether it was
legit, or collected previously and planted.
If it could survive for five days like it does inside a body, then any collected at the scene a day or two after the crime took place *should* be live. If it had been collected and
planted then it would likely be old and dead, thus a giveaway. It's only a small technicality, but murders can walk on technicalities...
russian_chemist January 2nd, 2003, 05:24 PM

sperm needs the septum, the moisture and the warmth of 37.5 degrees to live for a lengthy 5 days...
i think it is under 2 hours it can live, i really dont think it is long at all.
nbk2000 January 2nd, 2003, 08:37 PM

Simple organisms like sperm can be frozen, and remain that way for years, before being thawed and used to get some woman preggers. I'd think dry ice temps would be
sufficient for a while, maybe even just a regular deep freeze would work.
Boob Raider January 9th, 2003, 09:11 PM

I think using a condom instead of collecting semen samples, freezing them and dispersing them would be much more convinient for rapists. Vaccume cleaner bags should make
excellent sources for shed hair and skin. If one can get a bag from a high school or similar place, that should be more that enough skin and hair evidence. Stuffing the victum's
nails with a mix of blood and skin shedings would be like a highway with a dead end to the piggys. In most cases using stereotypical evidence would be very effective.
But what if the crime is "spur of the moment" ?? How to render existing DNA useless without a fire (It is detected easily as visibility is high)
Ezekiel Kane February 25th, 2003, 01:31 AM

I heard of a really good idea to confuse the pigs, if it actually works - go to a shooting range, pick up spent shells off the ground (obviously not your own) and scatter them
around the crime scene. That'll confuse them long enough to get the hell out of town.
static_firefly February 25th, 2003, 05:29 AM

Yes you could raid the bin behind a waxing salon and collect them hairs.
There was a murder in central Australia, many of you may remember. Where the British backpacker was attacked and her boy friend killed. There was a big up roar when the
police used the florecent paint stuff to search for blood. They found hand prints on the door that were most likely the killers, however this paint stuff also destoryed the DNA so
they couldnt use it in court (dont think they found him anyway).
However wouldnt it be the easyest way of destorying your DNA to just burn everything?

To quote boondock saints, one of my favorite movies of all time (being a guinea/mick helps)
"They used ammonia! None of this is any good! FUCK!"
Will ammonia actually work to destroy DNA? NaOH has been suggested.
If they can still do blood type analysis on what remains, you could probably spray it down with phenol to trash proteins, too.
On a side note, I've got strep right now. It's amusing to the chemist in me that i'm spraying a very mild solution of phenol down my throat in the form of Chloroseptic.
Mr-Eckted June 25th, 2003, 11:11 PM

Who was it that wanted to ball mill hair?
If you ball milled the hair you collected, all the piggies would have to do would be to look for the only foreign hair that wasn't ground up into tiny bits, and run that.
And NBK: wouldn't it be smarter to simply take, say, a garbage bag full of hair and the like and dump it all over the scene? Police can sometimes tell if evidence is planted, and
they would look for any other hairs at the scene once they realized that it was planted, and you would be caught.
If you dumped a massive amount of hair all over the scene, and were unlucky enough to be tested, just claim you're one of the many who had their hair planted.
Also, the person who's DNA you plant might have a bullet proof allibie (sp?). Suppose they were on live T.V at the time of the murder?I would think evidence flooding would be
the best way to go.
john_smith October 31st, 2003, 07:51 AM

Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but there's something I'd really like to know...would this have a chance of working:
1) take a moist hanky or something and scrub down a few door handles in public buildings, buses, subways etc.
2) wash and wring it out in minimal amount of water
3) let most of the water evaporate
4) put the leftover in an Ajax bottle, shake, and spray all over the crime scene
What do you think?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Accident
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Arkangel December 29th, 2002, 08:00 PM

Well, I haven't had one for a w hile, but yesterday I had an accident, which in many w ays I'm glad about - I'm not too badly hurt, and it was a useful reminder about safety.
I was ramming a rocket, using a sugar/charcoal/sodium chlorate fuel. I had rammed the entire length of the mandrel, plus 1/2", and was ramming the last bit of powder before
my grog end-plug. With what would have been the last couple of mallet blows, there was an explosion, and I saw that there was a large flame coming out of the tube. I picked
the mandrel base/flaming tube up, and pointed it at the floor of my workshop, initially trying to extinguish it, then remembering what I was working with, realised it might go on
to explode, so I carried it outside and dumped it on some gravel until it burnt out.
There are quite a few glaring fuck ups I made, and quite a few lessons learned, so I might as well give you the background.
Over Xmas I've been doing some testing of various comps, and rockets, and seem to have found a fuel that works ok for the time being. My brother was visiting, and my nieces
were keen to see one of my rockets go off. I was therefore rushing to make one, and foolishly cut a number of safety corners.
1. I'd been for a run earlier, and was still in my jogging gear - shorts and sweat top.
2. For pryo work, I have leather gauntlets, sleeves, apron and a full face mask, NONE of which I was wearing.
3. My workshop is not properly finished at the moment, and I don't have an external magazine, so in it I was storing, (among other things), flash, flash Al, various commercial
pyro's, acetone, hexamine, H2O2, the list goes on.
4. I didn't have a bucket of w ater in there to dump stuff in, I'd forgotten about that, having just installed a couple of dry pow der extinguishers. The bucket would have been a
much more useful idea under the circumstances.
5. One of my nieces had just come in to see w hat I was doing, but I continued to ram the rocket. She w as still in when the rocket blew , and I shouted at her to get out, but she
was trying to push the door instead of pulling. In the confusion, she didn't work it out for a couple of seconds. Thank god nothing else caught, and there was no additional flame
in the room, but had there been, those wasted seconds could have hurt us both.
On the plus side, most of my chems w ere out of flames reach of the process I w as involved in. I had about a pound of rocket comp in a tub nearby, but since this w as the last
bit I was ramming, I'd replaced the top. Had I not, maybe the whole tub would have gone off. And I think that's about it on the plus side, I was LUCKY, despite my
carelessness/recklessness.
As things stand, I have a 1st degree burn on the web of my left hand, and a couple of spot burns elsewhere on my hands, and that's it. It could have been a whole lot worse.
Things I w ill do differently are:
1. No unbriefed, unprotected spectators

2. A dry, external magazine for storing comps and hazardous chems not in-use (BEFORE my next experiments!!!!!)
3. I will use full protection, EACH time - assume the w orst WILL happen (how many times have I said to other people?) This includes full trouser legs
4. I'm pressing, not ramming in future - it was a mallet blow (rubber mallet, aluminium tools) that caused the explosion. It w ill be worth the investment in time and effort to
make a press. Plus of course my grains w ill be more consistent
5. I will always have a large container of w ater on hand to dump stuff in
6. I will try to think at each stage of the process "what happens if"? It all happened very fast, and for a couple of precious seconds I was thinking "w hat the fuck!!??!" instead of
"do this, or do that".
I am now a bit caned (for the pain, you understand <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src= "wink.gif" /> ), and don't w ant to bother people much more with my tale of
woe. However, I'm a bit embarrassed, not for the fact that this happened (shit does), but that the circumstances were so crap at the time. And of course if my lessons are of
any use I'll be happy.
Commiserations and smart arsed advice welcome :)
zeocrash December 29th, 2002, 08:08 PM

ouch thats nasty man, one of my dads mates blew his fingers off hammering explosive into a tube like that. hope you feel better soon
spydamonkee December 29th, 2002, 08:24 PM

bummer dude, hope those burns heal soon, i hate getting burnt its not very nice :/
i hope to never have an accident w ith my experiments... but on the bright side if i do stuff up i will never feel it and it will serve me right, safty is usually No1 for me.
NERV December 29th, 2002, 09:50 PM

Sorry about the accident dude. Hope your burns heal up okay. If things had gone a little differently Arkangel could have some serious burns. Just goes to show that safety
should be the number one concern of us pyros.
Jumala December 29th, 2002, 10:54 PM

Bad thing, but it was foreseeable.
I know from my own experiments with chlorate and sugar many years ago that it is easy ingniteable with a hammer on an anvil.
Blackpowder isnt.

Violation of the RTPB "Plan for Failure".
A bucket of water wouldn't have extinguished it because a rocket carries its own oxygen supply. In this case, the chlorate. For smothering a fire, use sand instead of water.
Water could have a nasty reaction with some chemicals...worse than the fire.
If you can, you might want to install some sort of chute or passthrough to the outside where you could throw something out of the room ASAP. An open window perhaps? Let it
burn a hole in the law n rather than risk a fire in a room full of pyro chemicals.
Also, doors should be propped open so there's no fumbling around with in-swinging doors during a panic, like with your niece.
There's been many times when firefighters have found piles of bodies at a door that couldn't be opened because people paniced when the door didn't open when they ran into
it, not realizing that it had to swing in to open.
NO spectators EVER! Pyrotechnics isn't a spectator sport. What if she light up a cigarette and threw the lit butt in what she thought was the trash can...but w as actually a bucket
full of magnesium pow der (or something)? Oops...big shit!
Besides w hich, it's more fun to show off w hen they don't know how you did it. < img border= "0" title="" alt= "[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D
Crow December 30th, 2002, 03:25 AM

I'm sorry to hear about the accident, of course, I w ish you get well soon.
Lately I have been setting up my own lab in the basement of my house. It's not a very good one, but it does the job. It's a new addition basement as w ell so it has four w alls,
4 windows(tw o of which lead inside, none of which open) and a bulkhead 6" across right next to my tool bench. On my tool bench I have a press, a ginder, a lathe, a large
assortment of normal hand tools and electric tools. For safety I lined the ceiling w ith Flame retardent insulation and metal sheets. I also have a bucket of water strapped to the
wall along with a bucket of sand and two fire extinguishers(Foam). I also have blankets, googles, aprons, boots, glooves, and I always wear ear plugs. I store my explosives,
mostly HMTD and black powder :( in my shed, 15" aw ay from the bulkhead. It is a steel shed w ith 2 padlocks on it. I keep the explosive in a small 12 inch safe which is in an
overturned 55 gallon drum.
Any other safety tips I could add to this mini-lab?
BrAiNFeVeR December 30th, 2002, 03:58 AM

Don't put explosives in a safe !!!
You have to put them in something that will absorb as much as possible energy from the shockwave. A safe will just get an enormous internal pressure and probably get the
door blow n off or total fragmentation, depending on the amount of explosives in it I think.
Anyway, it'll make some nasty heavy shrapnel ...
Place your explosives in a container (cardboard or plastic box) filled w ith pumice or something.
zeocrash December 30th, 2002, 08:21 AM
this topic reminded me about safety.
i w as down my local army surplus shop the other day when i saw one of these
<img src="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/Hosted% 20Images/zeocrash/assuit.jpg" alt=" - " />
for 40
it comes in 5 parts, boots, jacket, trousers (pants for american members), gloves and hat
is it worth my time buying it for protection, or is it too extreme
vulture December 30th, 2002, 09:17 AM

It w ould probably protect your head against a minor blast, but the rest is just plain fire and heat protection. It w on't help you much if say 100g of primary blows up in your face.
[ December 30, 2002, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]
Flake2m December 30th, 2002, 09:17 AM

It is probaly too extreme. A suit like that is worn by firemen if they are dealing with a really hot fire or it contains toxic chemicals.
A suit like that is also worn by people that pour metals.
While it w ould be a bit extreme it'd still be cool to have :D .
[ December 30, 2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Flake2m ]
Mr Cool December 30th, 2002, 09:38 AM

Zeocrash, the army surplus near me has a UXO disposal suit. Full Kevlar and polycarbonate protection :D . But it's expensive.
Bad luck Arkangel, hope you're not too shaken up by it. I once had an accident making an HMTD detonator, the bloody thing blew up w hile I w as making it. No serious injury
resulted, but now every time I'm w orking with or making HE's I get sort of flashbacks, my vivid imagination starts playing up. I get images in my head of it suddenly detonating
and ripping my hands off, accompanied by the "SNAPbeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep ."
It can be really disconserting!
Guerilla December 30th, 2002, 11:25 AM

Seems like the chlorate fuel is showing its true nature (smart ass comment? < img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).. Anyway's, good you had rammed
most of the fuel, more loose pow der might have burnt more violently..
Yep, you'd be better to press your chlorate fuel instead of ramming it but pressing is slow er and you'll propably have to use metal sleeve. And when you use a metal sleeve,
you certainly need also a thick blast screen or similar... That's why I like nitrate based propellants, you never have to w orry such things.
Glad you're ok and thanks for the caution :)

Thanks for the kind w ords. As I said though, in many ways I'm pleased about it. A kick in the arse like this, w ithout tooooo much pain or damage is a great reminder to sort
your act out w hen you're getting sloppy. It could easily have been WAY worse.
And some good suggestions guys, keep 'em coming < img border= "0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
These things can and probably will happen to you, if they haven't already. As you remind us constantly NBK, "Plan for failure" :)

Burns are fun things, aren't they? Heal up quick mate :)
Pressing would be less likely to accidentally ignite the composition, but if it does then it's completely confined and very likely to result in an explosion. Just presenting an
alternative side to the discussion < img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Crow December 30th, 2002, 01:27 PM

Thank you BrainFever, I w as thinking that would happen but I really don't want anyone finding it. Also, if police get a w arrant to search my house don't they need a second to
search any safes? By that time the explosives would be long gone. Zeocrash, that looks like the suits volcanologists wear. They can fall in laval and get back out w ithout any
serious damage but only for a half a second or so. There was someone w ho fell in w earing one and didnt get a scratch on him.

When I do get pressing, as you say, I'll need a sleeve to stop the tubes splitting. I plan to cut a slit down one side of the sleeve, leaving a few small sections intact, almost like
a perforation on a tear off form. That way, the sleeve will burst in a predicted place, into one piece, rather than randomly. Also I'll have a sheet of something betw een me and
the tube, to prevent the opened out sleeve hitting me.
Does that make sense?
Hopefully the perforated sleeve w ill still be strong enough to keep the tubes intact.
(Edit: Anthony, this did include an explosion :( . My ears were ringing, and it took me half an hour to find my ramming tool across the w orkshop. HOWEVER, I know what you
mean - w e're talking the difference between firecracker and a pipe bomb)
[ December 30, 2002, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]
EP December 30th, 2002, 06:30 PM

But at least when you are pressing you have can have a better blast shield seperating you from the rocket. I've seen some very nice presses with four inch thick plexiglass blast
shields, looks expensive!
As for sleeves, if you haven't seen this before, an idea to consider: A lot that I have seen use a PVC section split down the middle into tw o pieces. Then the tube you are
pressing is put into this, w hich is all held together with hose clamps. I guess that doesn't help for the fragmentation issue, but it does make a good sleeve. :)

arkangel, sorry to hear about your accident. shit, hope your hand recovers soon. well atleast its given you a good kick to do it safely. i like the w ay pyros don't even consider
quitting ever. haha, none of this 'hm, maybe i should stop pyro' just the 'next time i'll definately do this...' :)
CyclonitePyro December 30th, 2002, 09:46 PM

I have a nice press but a shitty blast screen. Where can someone find thick plexi-glass or polycarbonate?
kingspaz December 31st, 2002, 06:04 AM

called security glazing (or similar) and from shops which sell plastic windows.
like this but not in the UK for you.
<a href="http://www .diy-plastics.co.uk/" target= "_blank">http://w ww.diy-plastics.co.uk/< /a>
Guerilla December 31st, 2002, 08:45 AM

Strong transparent blast screen isn't necessarily essential, ie. if you place a thick w ooden or metal panel between you and a press and then a small mirror in appropriate
direction that you can operate the press behind the panel by looking into the mirror. Thin transparent screen can be still placed in front of the mirror to cover potential fragments
coming from the mirror. This way it'll be at least w ay cheaper than obtaining one thick plexi glass..
Arkangel February 25th, 2003, 07:09 PM

I think I might have w orked out w hat caused this accident, with a fuel that I didn't imagine w ould be impact sensitive.
I use 3 tools for ramming rockets. First, a mandrel, incorporating a 6mm (but slightly tapering rod to form the core. (This has a flat top)
Next is rammer #1, an aluminium rod, w ith a 6.25mm hole all the w ay through.
When I've rammed fuel above the coring mandrel, I use a second rammer, which is a plain rod, w ith no hole.
As I w as making a couple of rockets the other day, it occurred to me that if I'd only had a small layer of fuel between rammer #2 and the mandrel, it could have acted as
though I w as hitting some of the fuel on an anvil. That might have been enought to ignite the bit of fuel between the rammer and the mandrel.
This may or may not be the cause, but either way, I'll be finishing all my mandrels w ith a rounded or pointed top in future
[ February 25, 2003, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]
Anthony February 25th, 2003, 11:45 PM

That does sound a likely scenario, good thinking :)
Microtek February 26th, 2003, 08:38 AM

I have one piece of advice which probably won't sit too well with many of you guys. On the other hand it virtually guarantees that you will never be seriously injured: Scale
down.
Tests using 0.1 grams of HE are entirely possible as long as the HE is reasonably sensitive ( so no NTO, TATB or ANFO ). Detonators don't need to contain more than 0.02 g
PETN and 0.01 g ( un-dextrinated ) lead azide or silver azide, as long as there is direct contact between the primary and the base ( and the base and the charge to be
detonated ).
Even if you don't like the prospect of confining yourself to so small amounts, it is possible to make a compromise, by using a detonator of this size and including a small booster
( such as 2 grams of pentolite with a high degree of PETN ) betw een it and the main charge. That way you will have severely diminished the risk of preparing the initiating train.
Obviously, it is more difficult to make that kind of adjustment to rocketry if you w ant rockets that fly very far, but you can still make small rockets ( less than 2.5 cm in length )
that can fly hundreds of meters.
Scaling dow n also has the advantage of draw ing less attention and mitigating any charges brought against you ( at least around here ).
TheBear February 28th, 2003, 03:58 PM

I agree with you Mikrotek, but most of the people here wants to experience the destructive power of HEs which isn't very noticable when using charges in that order of size.
As for NaClO3 + sugar: don't mix them! It makes a very "raspsensitive" mixture. In sweden NaClO3 became regulated after too many young boys got their hands blown off by
this mixture (although they probably made pipebombs w ith it and smashed the pipeends together w ith the explosive inside).
My chemistryteacher told me that she used to let the pupils grind small amounts of NaClO3 + Sugar with mortar and pestle when reading about oxidation and reduction plus that
the pupils thought it w as very exciting to hear the cracks and all. And during one of these experiments (the last one ever conducted with her permission) using the same amount
of powder as always (this experiment had been made many times for several years) the motar w as shattered by a loud crack and shrapnel from the mortar cut the boys hand
(not to bad though). My chemistryteacher was w atching all the time and the boy who w as grinding wasn't doing anything unusuall and suddenly it all went off. I personaly think
it went DTD and detonated. So if you have to use NaClO3 + sugar, bear in mind: it is very sensitive to friction.
Probably you knew all this and I get the picture that you're a lot more experienced than me in this buisness so I don't want to sound like I'm giving you a lecture but I really
would hate to see you get hurt. I'm looking forward to see the pics from your upcoming mini-katyscha (sp?) keep up the good work and play it safe.
simply RED February 28th, 2003, 05:09 PM

Homemade rockets are veeery dangerous!
Once a rocket engine made of KMnO4,S filled CO2 capsule has its duse full of dirt. I tried to clean it with a nail, and the engine started as i was holding it.
It flew just in the opposite direction of me....

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Training to Kill (at the arcade)
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View Full Version : Training to Kill (at the arcade)

I was at a casino a few days ago with an aquaintence. While they were busy enlarging the casinos pockets, I went to the
arcade since the movies they had there all suck.
It's been a long time since I've been to an arcade, probably going on ten years, so I was kinda shocked by the price ($1/play)
and the complexity of the games.
But I was really surprised by how some games require you to physically interact with them. I played this game for 5 minutes.
<img src="http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/Gunfight_Simulator.jpg" alt=" - " />
In it, you're a cop who has to kill every bad guy in sight. All the while, you're ducking behind cars, dodging around corners, and
otherwise avoiding getting shot.
The game has some way of seeing your movements, and coordinating it with the action on the screen.
Well, days later, I'm still sore from the workout that damn machine gave me. My legs are burning and my back is stiff as a
board.
But, it was also very instructional because it showed me just how strenuous taking cover in a gunfight could be. And it also
gives you feed back about your reaction times, accuracy, and other details of interest.
Needless to say, my reaction times to taking cover weren't too good (no practice), but my accuracy was 84%. :) Guess this
means I'd be better off blowing them away then hiding from them. :D
Now, this isn't the only such game there. There was also one called "Silent Scope" that has you playing a sniper, complete with
a high power scope to look through on your rifle, that puts you through various scenarios like shooting at people from rooftops
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , helicopters, in stadiums, and others. I did a lot better at this one
since I've been getting practice playing a sniper in Americas Army. Head shots a'plenty. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />
Anyways, anyone who's read Killology knows that these games, while not turning meek kids into raving killers, DO hone the
skills needed. It's called "Operant Conditioning". You see a target pop up, you shoot it. The faster and more accurately you
can do this, the bigger the reward.
Knowing that video games have a life span on par with a gnat, might not a person of a...certain lifestyle...wish to aqcuire such
games for their own use after they become available as surplus at a fraction of their original price?
That use being to supplement actual range practice with constant video simulation to keep up the reflexes and develop the
muscle memeory? Range time is a hassle, expensive, and risky if you can't legally own (or use) guns. Simulation would allow
you to make maximum use of your limited range time.
green beret December 31st, 2002, 11:42 PM

This seems like a very good idea, although I have never seen any of these particular games here in oz. My boss rents
amusement machines (games) on the side though so I'll ask him about those games in particular. Like you said it saves
going to the range, and here in Australia that is damn near impossible anyway, and even at the range you still cant get the
reflexes you get when people actually fire back.
I think I will look into purchasing one, if I can get my hands on one of those mentioned.
It seems that alot of the arcade games that come out in the US rarely make it to us over here.
Crow January 1st, 2003, 02:06 AM

Even surplus machines run for thousands of dollars and the electricity needed to run the things would be outrageous. But still,
it would be better than going out of your way to an expensive range. I have not gone to the arcade in months, and there I
only played games like the ones you mentioned, shooting games. Although these did not transmit your movements into the
game it was still good practice for accuracy and reflexes. Computer games can help, but they will not help with much since the
movements used to move with a keyboard are no way similar to the real world, but I still play those frequently. These video
arcades don't seem to get too much attention anymore with all the new computer games which dont cost as much over the
long run.
nbk2000 January 1st, 2003, 02:30 AM

They don't have to be plugged in all the time, right? It isn't like you're trying to rack up a high score or something. <img
Computer games can't compare to the arcade versions. The arcade ones require PHYSICAL movement on the players part.
Whereas PC games only require the twitching of thumbs and fingers. Quake never left me with leg cramps and a sore back.
And, considering how the games cost over $10,000 new, even $2,000 used is cheap. And it's WAY cheaper than the simulators
that the police use. Their versions, while more realistic, also cost 6 figures.
Crow January 1st, 2003, 02:50 AM

I propose theft.
Mr Cool January 1st, 2003, 08:34 AM

Hmmm... it wouldn't be too easy to steal a huge (and HEEEAAAVVVYYYY!!!) arcade game, and not worth getting caught.
I can't wait until the day when they have good VR games. I remember there was a VR place where I live a few years ago, I
never went but it shut down after a few months. It was probably crap. But if they were good it would be the ultimate simulator,
and it'd be great fun too :) .
What about paintballing and those laser games?
Lol, last time I went to an arcade was to mock the little townie punks who were on those punching games. It's great fun, they
hit the thing and show off to their mates that they got score X, then you step in and crush their spirits by getting a score of
three times that :D .
Keyser Soze January 1st, 2003, 02:32 PM

While paintballing is lots of fun, i don't think it would give you the correct idea of a real battle/firefight. The physical aspect is
good, but you can dodge paintballs pretty easily and they don't fly near as fast as bullets. The arcade game is also good
because it was probably in an urban setting.
Mr Cool January 1st, 2003, 02:48 PM

You can't dodge a paintball that hits you in the back of the head.
firebreether January 1st, 2003, 03:01 PM

Paintballing is very good in terms of the exercise and tactics though. Its not the real thing, but neither is VR. Last time i went
paintballing, after like 4 hours i could barely stand i was that tired.
zippoxiv January 1st, 2003, 05:01 PM

Although off topic, paintball could be used as a very effective training tool. It depends on the style of gameplay you choose,
tourney (speedball) or "recreational" (thats woods play) Depending on your location there are most likely woods and
abandoned buildings/warehouses or any other usefull scenerio's to play in. Athough considered "trespassing" if you know the
location is not used, and isolated enough that you would not be expecting company, with your own guns and gear you could
get a few interesting games going.
Crow January 1st, 2003, 05:02 PM

Also paint ball does not allow for the realism of differant types of firearms, explosives, flashbangs, smoke grenades, armor
and paintball fights are generally conducted in wooden areas and not urban.
Edit: Spelling
[ January 01, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Crow ]
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur January 1st, 2003, 05:36 PM

Crow, Not that i know the exact rules and regulations in all of america concerning smoke and flash-bangs, but in florida there
was a stock of flash-bangs for sale (i'm talking crappy made for paintball 'safe' flash-bangs) and in England, smoke/flash and
paintball grenades are available for about 3.50/4 pounds each, depending on exactly what is wanted. Paintball can be a great
trainning aid, (besides, who on earth would stake life-and-limb on armour?) but cannot compare to the actual experience of
combat.
time crisis 2 is my FAVOURITE, blow-back action (thou not as powerful as real-steel) and a foot pedal (to 'hide') I have heard
its about 11k to own one :( (one day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )
nbk2000 July 10th, 2003, 02:35 AM

I've attached a raw copy of some of the text of the book "On Killing" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.
I've edited out most of the book as being irrelevant to the topic here, that being the psychology process involved in training to
kill. It's about 70 pages worth of single spaced text. 104kb compressed .zip
Download it, read it, and contemplate. :)
probity July 15th, 2003, 04:34 PM

nbk2000, do you have anymore links? I was just searching around and came across bulletproof mind, that video series..
anyhow it sounded interesting and I want to read more in regards to this subject. Thanks...
nbk2000 July 15th, 2003, 08:24 PM

Links to what? I already provided an OCR copy of a book on the subject. What more do you want?
How about YOU providing US with a link to something on the subject (like the "bulletproof mind" videos), and we'll see if you
have any sense of the subject, and then maybe we'll provide you with something in return.
We only help those who can help themselves first. :)
GibboNet July 16th, 2003, 09:58 PM

Time Crisis two is great !! That pedal is weird to get used to, but I love it. When I was on the mainland I spent $20 on credits
for that game, I was getting pretty good. Blow back action ? Not here. ( I feel cheated)
I have seen silent scope too, I might play it next time I'm in town.
Actually, I was looking at getting a PS2, I reckon I'll get one of the guns, and some nice shooting games. Not quite realistic,
but lots of fun, and for reaction time / reflex shooting action, it should be pretty good, not to mention very cheap.
Since I live in the smallest state in australia, and there's no paintball parks, it's actually illegal to own a paintball gun.... I plan
on setting up a park one day, and getting that reversed. I would specialise in realistic training.
If I was making a paintball park, it would definately have an urban area. In fact, I would have every variation I could. I'd also
offer combat / tactics training. Then I'd add myself to every game, and whoop their collective asses. Smoke genades, stun
grenades, camouflage suits (yowie / ghille) would all be avaliable, legal or not. Especially for the private functions for some
friends.
I'm definately going over to the mainland as soon as I have the money, to have a few games of paintball / laser challenge
games.
kinetic July 17th, 2003, 08:54 PM

it would be quite expensive for personal "war games" but...
In the military we use a canadian made ammo called "simmunition." We replace the 5.56 upper recievers on our M4s (M16
carbine) with a 9mm blowback operated one. Simmunition is basically low power 9mm shells with a paint pellet instead in a
lead bullet. They are accuate at close range and if you can dodge those, you're pretty amazing. They sting pretty bad when
they hit you (will break skin at close range) so it gives you extra incentive not to get hit. ;) It is a real weapon so it
malfunctions, runs out of ammo, and ejects shell casing like a real one. However, anyone who owns a 9mm hangun can take
advantage of this ammunition. However, this ammo is only useful for urban environments and clearing rooms- especially if
you are shooting it out of a hangun.
nbk2000 July 18th, 2003, 10:32 AM

Strange thing about simunitions is that it's seemingly impossible to find anyone who'll sell it to non-cop/goverment people,
like regular citizens. You can buy lethal ammo all day long, but you can't buy non-lethal training ammo, wonder why?
Could it be that they don't want people to be able to realistically practice tactics that'd make them on-par with the piggies?
Hmmmm....couldn't be that, could it? ;)
Shiffty_dog_eye July 19th, 2003, 11:35 AM

There is a cammera you can buy for the ps2 for $100au, and it put's your picture onsreen and scences your movemen, kinda
like the computer in that tom cruse move with the murder prediction guy's pre-cogs?, and way you get 12 games on the disc
when you buyit there kinda cheesy but still a lot of fun, i hope they develope this tech into an operating system for the pc
extention on the ps2
it's called eyetoy,
nbk2000 July 20th, 2003, 01:13 AM

Death for Shiffty_dog_eye for the crime of raping the english language. If you can't put together a coherent sentence, there's
no future for you here. :p
mrloud July 20th, 2003, 08:41 AM

I've played paintball quite a bit. Every time I've played against millitary or police types, they have walked into the game
thinking they are going to be shit-hot and clean up the opposition. In reality, we kick their arses. It seems training for real
combat in no way prepares a person for paintball. It is probably safe to say that the reverse also applies.
Don't get me wrong, paintball and video games have their place in combat training. But don't expect a firefight with the
piggies to be just like a big paintball game.
The Australian military and Special Operations Group also use that Simmunition ammo. I've found hundreds of spent rounds,
and a few live ones, in the various places my urban exploration activities take me. Just like the USA, they are not available to
civillians.
kinetic July 21st, 2003, 03:51 PM

I think there are a few lessons to be learned from playing paintball the you can apply to a real world situation:
1. Take cover or die

2. "stick and move" don't get pinned down
3. Basic tactics such as flanking and interlocking sectors of fire
Military and police often get there ass kicked in paintball because paintball firefights take place at extremely close ranges
where there is no time to organize and execute a "battle drill." Military types train for a more organized attacks which makes
them slow. Another reason may be that many police and military forces really aren't "shit-hot" like they think they are...;)
nbk2000 July 21st, 2003, 08:02 PM

It's also likely that the paintballers have had much more practice with their choosen weapons, and are in the field much more
often the the military/police guys. Most militaries/P.D's are very tight when it comes to training expenses, so they rarely get to
have live fire excercises
That, and its probable that thepaintballers are less adverse to getting shot, hence willing to take bigger risks, then the army
guys who'd be dead if they tried the same stunts during a mission.
static_firefly July 22nd, 2003, 05:08 AM

The problem is video games become reptitive. Its not long before you know where each target is and what they will do. But
they do give a good work out. Holding up one of them handguns blasting away will soon make your arms as tired as buggery.
controlphreak July 22nd, 2003, 11:55 AM

OK. I know this isn't exactly the best answer but there is always emulation. I prefer MAME32 and you can buy a laser gun to go
with it. You can download the dumps of Time Crisis and play it on your computer. And I think Area 51 is emulated too, and
they are constantly adding more. Just a suggestion
controlphreak
zaibatsu July 22nd, 2003, 02:07 PM

I was reading today in the Gun Digest book of Combat Handgunnery, vol2 abotu something called "imaging" - basically just
imagining your response in different situations/performing different operations. Supposedly this increases your spped at
performing these when it actually comes time to do them, without having to ever do it.
I'll try and get a bit of it typed up.
nbk2000 July 22nd, 2003, 09:08 PM

I've seen it described as "visualization".
It's sensible that, having previously ran through your mind what you would do in a certain event, that you would become
quicker at doing it, even if you've never actually done it.
It's even an RTPB:
"7 P's Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance" or "Prior Planning..." in this case. :)
Having previously thought through an event or action means not having to make up a plan on the spot.
Video games do become repetitive, since you can anticipate where the targets are going to pop up (unlike real life), but it
most definitely helps with your reflexes. :D
john_smith July 24th, 2003, 08:07 AM

Common CO2 operated airguns can be used for training as well, if you don't mind getting hurt a lot. The problem,though, is
that everybody I know does... Tried to organize a BB gun shootout lately, got five people together ,but all of them had
enough after three rounds... We were wearing heavy jackets, motorcycle helmets and thick scarfs wrapped around the neck 2-3
times, however, one guy took a BB in thigh (from a Grossmam air revolver) and had it removed in ER. I got shot in the hand
from an air rifle, and though it didn't penetrate the leather glove it hurt so much i thought there were some bones broken at
first. But it seemed pretty realistic after all, more so than paintball...
Imperial July 26th, 2003, 07:51 AM

Of course, these games don't take into account recoil, which greatly affects accuracy as well as your general handling of a
firearm, especially a high powered one like a sniper rifle.
If this was taken into account, these games would be excellent trainers for would-be killers.
I like the computer games and video games simply for the violent graphics, but also the fun of them. That machine which NBK
has shown would also be great, but there are none in Australia, as was said before :(.
One possibility is having a gun which has some sort of electric motor inside which provides a large shock (like controller
vibration on video game consoles) whenever a shot is fired. Preferably a shock which sends the gun backwards a little.
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur July 26th, 2003, 08:46 AM

true, the level of recoil simulated in time crisis 2 is no-where like the power of a browning high power (i whine but i'm sure that
a 9mm shouldn't kick _that_ much!) and to be the best you need to train with the worst possible guns (i.e. the rifle that kicks
like an irate elephant, the pistol that try's to end up lodged in a facial oriface) so that when the time comes for immediate
action, your body has become honed to expect and utilise the recoil rather then flinch.
later on i'll bring gas airsoft guns to everyone's attention, a very useful aid :P
GibboNet July 26th, 2003, 09:35 AM

I think the only real way to train in this way is to buy / manufacture / steal some real military weapons, and then buy or
manufacture small paint squib cartridges, that fire a tiny bullet sized paintball.
You're training with real weapons, which suffer real stoppages, and real malfunctions. The projectiles hurt, hence slight realism,
and you know when you're hit, and you can't cheat either. Unfortunately, you need numbers to play these sort of war games,
as training alone will never suffice. Only real humans can provide the correct mix of unpredictibility and counter tactics.
In this way, team on team, a fairly good training session could be had. Unfortunately, there are a number of reasons why it
won't work, most of which I've mentioned or are blatantly obvious.
I'm trying to think of a way to achieve some of the ideas I've mentioned, but I'm not getting very far. I have some fairly
realistic weapons here that I made a few years ago, from timber and varios metal offcuts. A full size M14 and SLR (L1A1
aussies, FN FAL Brits). They have no means of firing, but I did manage to incorporate a cap gun body into the handgrip of
another, meaning a working trigger system, which, while it only fired toy caps, could be stepped up with a blank firing weapon.
After reading a fair bit of improvised weapons material, mostly from the FTP, I think it would be well within the capabilities of
home manufacture, but I need more tools, and equipment. The hardest part would be improvising the ammunition, but it's
only really the projectile that needs to be fabricated. A reloading kit would be used to then utilise the projectiles you've
constructed.
It's a long shot, but now I have the PS2 on layby, I'm looking at projectors, to make a large, full wall shooting gallery. I also
have some Super Nintendo games to put onto PSx, which means a few simple but fun shooting games. I've also got SOCOM,
supposedly a very realistic military game... it even comes with a voice recognition headset ! I'm hoping this will help develop
tactical strategy, in the form of real time combat assesments.
Just a few more thoughts...

Arcade simulation, and any simulation, is just that. Little recoil, little noise, and lots of bad vices slipping in, like holding the
gun sideways and "Gangster stylee" limp wrists.
What you really want is a way to use your real guns, and see the effects, etc.
Firstly, try field target rifle shooting. FT is done all over the place, using air weapons, and teaches you more about spotting
targets, windage, elevation, etc. than you would think if you haven't tried it. As long as air weapons (rifles) are available, you
should be able to find somewhere.
Secondly, practical pistol/rifle/shotgun are great fun. Some are very like the Close Quarter Battle sims that the police and
army use. Of course, this is a major issue when your guns get banned!
In the event of those two, you are set. If you can't do either, and are prepared to use a bit of ingenuity and money, plus
some time working out the bugs, you can do what the UK army bods do.
In essence, these live-fire arcade games are simple. You use a large roll of paper, a projector, your chosen arms (with
backstop, etc. as per a normal indoor range) and you either use a manual advance system and pause button, or you can have
"shot detection" and a computer.
The projector is set up facing down the range, with the "screen" in front, using the roll of paper. This roll is motorised, so that
it can be moved a fraction of an inch round each time. (For clarity, the "roll" of paper is one endless loop, as tall or wide as
you need it to be). A suitable video is found, or even something like Quake could be used(!) and fed to the projector. As long
as you can pause it without losing the picture it is fine.
Take your positions, and run VT!
The film runs, and then you engage a target. The video now freezes, and the light behind the screen* can be seen shining
through your bullet hole. You can then call a hit or a miss, and then the action continues, after the roll has moved a fraction of
an inch, so that the hole no longer lines up. You will be able to fire thousands of shots before you become aware of the holes
starting to align in the wrong places, and even then you will know which were your "hit" and which aren't, especially if you keep
using different films. Then tape over the holes, or replace with more from your roll.
* The only snag is, I cannot for the life of me think of a good way to have the light behind the system. I can't really
remember how the army did it, but I think it involved a big motorised mirror and light system that moved between shots.
Obviously, this is why they were so big, bulky and expensive. You need the light to shine through from roughly the same
angle as the holes, so you can't use a big light on the floor, and putting one behind the target maens it would get shot to
shit... Anyone got any ideas?
With a digital projector, I reckon these could even be a commercial goer!
root November 29th, 2003, 02:08 AM

just a game recommendation to try, it has you shooting it out with some robots and what not but it has some blowback to the
gun whenever you fire it (full auto). I believe its called LA 3000, something along those lines, heavy ass guns too wanna talk
about a work out...
GibboNet November 30th, 2003, 03:03 AM

A quick update, I just noticed in a magazine they showed M4 carbines (colt carbines, the M16 variants) which were paintball
guns.
They've done a lot of work making paintball weapons fit into the reciever on the M4, so it looks like a perfect replica, when it's
actuallly a paintball rifle.
They'd be the shit to have for this training.
Bert December 1st, 2003, 02:59 PM

When first person shooters appeared, I never thought it was just an accident of timing that it happened just about the time
Reagan came in and the powers that be had decided it was time for the US to get over Vietnam.
In other news, did anyone notice this? Paintball Jihad in Virginia (http://www.intellnet.org/news/2003/10/16/20658-1.htm) The
participants all quit paintball immediately when 9/11 occured... They were "worried about how their activities might appear".
Guess they were right to be worried.
I read the whole zip file. Thanks, NBK2000. I'm going to look for the book now.
metal dragon December 11th, 2003, 08:48 PM

Green beret,
Silent scope is a very popular game here in Australia. I have found it in nearly all arcades that I have been in. It is but far one
of my favourite games. So I am nearly certain in a near by arcade you will have success in finding it.
ossassin December 11th, 2003, 11:24 PM

Just remember that those video games aren't as realistic as they seem to be. Sniping requires more math than shooting
ability. Those little pistols on thos "realistic" tactical shooting games don't have the recoil of a real 9mm or .45 ACP. The
government doesn't care if you play them, because they are nothing like real combat. As far as I can tell, the only advantage
that games like that, specifically America's Army, give you is that they show you what types of tactics and weapons you could
be fighting against someday.
mr.pyro December 15th, 2003, 10:25 PM

A new thing like Paintball is catching on here in the States, its called Airsoft, youve probably heard of it if you live here. The
guns are the same size as real military spec and they have weights to keep the weight on par. They fire from 200 fps to
around 600, and are Electric or gas powered. www.airsoft.com
Mystic Pawn December 18th, 2003, 09:05 PM

On a related, somewhat, note, they always seem to mess up driving at high speeds in a police chase. I was wondering if there
is anyway to get the program drivers's ed programs use to train drivers, which could then be used to train to drive fast on city
streets.
Blackhawk December 22nd, 2003, 03:55 AM

On the note of realistic training simulators, I am interested in those crappy little 'laser combat' games. I was having a go at
one of the old lockon x2 ones, which use a pistol that 'shoots' IR and a headset with a cool flipdown hud over one eye to tell
you your health. Of course they are terribly inaccurate, you can basically fire with your sights a good 30degrees off target over
5m and still hit, I then however rammed a 1m long cardboard tube on the end of the gun over the barrel which made the
accuracy such that you actually had to aim before firing. This made me think that I could fashion my own weapons out of
wood/plastic with realistic reload and motor actuated recoil and them jam the guts of a comercial gun set into them, while of
course focusing the IR beam such that it would be decently accurate.
What do you think? It would be better if you could make your wn electronic internals but I am more happy with the idea of
using some that I know work (and have a decent range). Also will firing the IR beam into optics that focus visible light (such a
scope) will also do the job of focusing the IR and therefore decreasing the hit area?
Jacks Complete December 22nd, 2003, 08:33 PM

I bought a nice toy the other day, a small plastic log that has some four IR sensors in it, and solenoid springers. Two plastic
cans and two "broken bottles" came with it, and an over-sized revolver.
When hit, the spring fires the appropriate can into the air. Unusually, it is very hard! The beam is very small, so you need to
be accurate, but also, if you sweep the gun, or pull the shot, etc. it refuses to trigger!
Also, for a treat, I got myself a second PS2 lightgun, one with a laser sight on it. for 15, it rocks. Now I can double gun, just
like Max Payne! Sadly, the recoil mech has no chance of keeping up with my rate of fire...
markgollum December 23rd, 2003, 02:52 AM

Although lightening fast reflexes would most certainly be useful, it is my opinion that combat requires much more than that.
Effectiveness in combat probably also requires things such as patience, weapons proficiency, tactics, and the ability to react
with the right level of aggression, etc.
These are some ways I think would be a good way to learn those attributes.
Patience: playing sniper and huntin g.
W e a p o n s p roficiency: practice with real weapons, dry firing often, duck hunting.
Tactics : reading abou t and practicing technique s su ch as slicing the pie , playin g compute r games like G h o s t Recon .
Aggression: paintball, and G h o s t Recon .
I think that those are the main skills needed.

Ghost Recon is the most realistic combat sim I have ever seen, especially on multiplayer.
hpy2bhre December 29th, 2003, 07:32 PM

I play paintball more than i should and sometimes find myself incorporating the paintball mode of survival into my everyday
life. Such as : Looking very intently at everything in a woodline, searching for anything out of place. Or as walking in on
situation and already have picked my exit and cover in case all hell breaks loose. And I play big scenerio games with up to
1000 people , and when I go to the mall or a crowded place I find myself having studied the crowd for threats. We play with
paint grenads and flash bangs in the trees and it makes for a real " be alert or don't make it " time! Maybe we should all be
like this, I think the team work and practical thought pratice of paintball makes it a good practice tool! And after 24 hrs of play
you do get sore!
Mike76251 December 29th, 2003, 08:43 PM

This is not about video games but about real life;
Never shoot antbody in the head............this will cause them to bounce around on the floor for up to 10 minutes due to
spasms from the brain and they will shit all over you and anything around.
Always go for a heart shot as this is just like a light switch.........when you flick it, they go off.
Forever.
Zykaz January 4th, 2004, 01:16 AM

Sorry Mike, but shooting someone in the head is instantaneously fatal, as long as the bullet makes contact with the brain. In
other words, as long as the bullet goes into the skull, passes through the brain, and either stays there or comes out the other
side, the person will fall like a brick and will be dead before they touch the ground. There will be no spasms from the brain.
They will also not "...shit all over you and anything around for up to 10 minutes..."; blood will follow out the exit wound as the
bullet leaves the skull, along with possibly parts of the brain, and skull. Pretty gruesome.
newdle January 12th, 2004, 08:21 AM

In australia, brisbane, in capalaba central shopping center arcade, there is this exact game he is talking about, i believe it's
Konami's "911 Police" or something. You use a standard gun on a cable, but above and beside the unit in the playing area,
there's some sort of light sensor or something to detect where the player is. My guess could be that maybe it's even an array
of proximity sensors, so that a 2 dimensional 'outline' of the human playing could be formed.
xitwound January 16th, 2004, 05:39 PM

You know, you guys could look into geting paintball guns, some of them have a pretty good price for something reasonable,
but paintballs can get expensive if you just blast away at everything you think is a person (not to mention get you shot).
Though you dont always have to be shooting at people. Though something else to try, is take a treadmill, and line it up
directly in front of your TV, and connect your game console and start playing a First Person Shooter while your running. You
wont get a work out with dodging and aiming (unless you use a light gun for the aiming) but it will force you to think and shoot
fast while playing the game. I did this with Halo for xbox on heroic. Its harder than it seems. At first your fine, but after a while
fatigue starts to set in. But make sure the thing is directly in front, because my set up was a little off, and i kept moving too
close to the sides of the belt of the treadmill. Be emberassing to explain your broken arm because you ran off the treadmill.
But keep in mind, that no virtual training can compare to the real workout of runing,dodging, and getting shot at than the real
world can. Leading me back to suggest a game of paintball.
ChR1S
wrythawk January 31st, 2004, 11:23 AM

I have played a lot of those arcade games.
I own time crissis project titan,and I play the game with a recoil simulating lightgun.And hell the first time I played like 2 hours
non-stop,my arm was sore for three days.
but now I am used to it,so maybe its a good training for learnig to hold your gun for a long time.
what I think is curious: why doesn't the paintbullet from a simmunition round crack open when it gets shot out of the barrel?
ossassin February 2nd, 2004, 01:31 AM

Real shooting is a hell of alot different than it is in a video game. I suggest actually shooting your firearm at a shooting
range. Once you truly master it, you will be better than 99% of the police officers and military personnel out there.
Shotgun Pete February 14th, 2004, 03:48 PM

At an arcade around here, the owners were having problems of people ripping the lightguns off the cords, so they affixed an
extra chain link to a metal plate on the gun. Not only does this make the ordinary plastic light gun heavier, but it makes the
already Time Crisis 2 lightgun weigh a ton, and the metal plate is right on the slide. This gives a heavier kick from a metal
slide blowing back than plastic one. To bad the blue side of the game is busted, the calibration of the gun is all fucked up and
the blowback is all broken, whatever operates it probably screwed up from the extra weight, but the red side will wear you out
from the 5 pound gun blowing back for half an hour. My high score on that one is 86% accuracy, mostly headshots :)
nbk2000 April 8th, 2006, 06:26 AM

A 3D immersion enviroment where you can can walk around inside the virtual world. :)
http://www.virtusphere.net/military.htm
Big Mac July 10th, 2006, 01:54 AM

Even surplus machines run for thousands of dollars and the electricity needed to run the things would be outrageous. But still,
it would be better than going out of your way to an expensive range. I have not gone to the arcade in months, and there I
only played games like the ones you mentioned, shooting games. Although these did not transmit your movements into the
game it was still good practice for accuracy and reflexes. Computer games can help, but they will not help with much since the
movements used to move with a keyboard are no way similar to the real world, but I still play those frequently. These video
arcades don't seem to get too much attention anymore with all the new computer games which dont cost as much over the
long run.
I don't know, honestly if you just unplugged the game after use it shouldn't be too horrendous on electricity. Besides, one
would assume they have to be pretty energy efficient considering that some arcades are dead as Bob Hope quite often than
one would tend to think.
In the Army we had a game that was on the SNES console with a near life-size replica of the M-16 rifle that we practiced in the
barracks. It was quite fun and improved greatly without us firing a single round. I really want to get ahold of the game and the
rifle if I could only find them. The game was quite efficient. Another arcade game to look for is an oldie but goodie called
"Police Trainer" it teaches police tactics on shooting. Moving objects, advancing adversaries, discrimination between unarmed
civilians and armed criminals, etc. I played it when I was being discharged from the Army at the bus station. After an hour I
got pretty damn good at it. Though not at the level of a cop, it was probably enough for me to go waste a decent size group of
people if I was some sort of sociopath.

"Police trainer" is the one NBK started this thread over. It is, to my knowledge, the only arcade game with the motion detection
system built in.
Sadly, most of the arcade games coming out now are just all about the rate of fire. I played House of the Dead 4 last week,
and after 20 minutes on the first credit, I was rather bored! Just hold down the trigger, and let the Uzi's cut the zombies'
heads off, whack the gun to reload, repeat. No tactics, no civilians to avoid, no ammo limits, nothing. Boring.
I also found that whilst playing Point Blank for cash, I was far slower than 'normal' as using a real firearm makes you savour
every shot, and PB is a very fast point and shoot. However, it has both no-shoots aplenty, fast targets, and free money!
I do like it when you can win enough to play all the other games. :-)
In other news, the EyeToy for the PS2 is rubbish. The concept is great, but I have yet to see any worthwhile games with it. If
you know any, I might buy one. If I could be bothered, I would program something to do what we want, but I haven't got a
development system for PS2 so I've not bothered. The other one to get around to is the Fighting Arena, which detects your
movement as button presses and directions, with a DDR type mat, and four sensor break beams at left, right and front high
and front low. With a light gun as well, it would be great.
I can see a massively cool game with the eyetoy looking back at you to provide a shift in perspective on occassion, and the
Arena allowing you to move naturally, whilst using the lightgun for shooting. The only issue then is the lack of weapon recoil,
but I'm sure something could be arranged.
For an idea of how the telesniper would work, play BeachHead. It's a VR type game with a movement chair which, went
combined with the wide FoV of the screen fools you into thinking you are travelling 360o, and you have a variety of weapons
too.
Lastly, if you have a PS2 and a lightgun, get Time Crisis 2. The sub-games you get, target pistol shooting, clay shooting, etc.
are worth the small amount of money it will cost you these days! Proper weapons control, perfecting your aim, tracking a
moving target, etc. are all there.

There is a boxing game that has a motion camera, combined with weighted 'gloves' with (I assume) motion sensors in them
aswell, it requires you to do everything you would do in a normal boxing match to avoid getting hit. All the while targeting the
VR opponent.
ozboy September 24th, 2006, 07:29 AM

The Austalian army uses "Technology based training",i.e. Computer games.
Here's the link.
http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/showcase/index.cfm?event=casestudydetail&casestudyid=2564&loc=en_us
And paintball is used by SWAT according to this article.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_48/ai_87564349
blehmen December 24th, 2006, 12:17 PM

I know this thread is getting a little old but after spotting, and reading through this thread I thought it might be nice to share
something with you all.
Bohemia Interactive Studios, in 2001, created a game called Operation Flashpoint. The game scored well with reviews, but
never made it onto the shelves of mainstream gamers for the very reason I'm posting about it here: realism.
Operation Flashpoint is, by far, the most realistic publicly available military simulator ever made. The game was later
developed into a training program used by the US Marine Corps and Australian Defense force. This piece of software went by
the name of Virtual Battlespace One, or VBS1, which has now made it onto the public market, and of course, torrent sites.
Last month a sequel to Operation Flashpoint was released in the Czech Republic, Armed Assault. The english release is
planned for February 2007, but German and Czech downloadable versions are already available along with a community
released english patch.
For training in tactics, this game is perfect. The terrain is huge, so map reading, communication, logistics etc are all vital to the
success of missions. The number of onscreen units is equally impressive, especially with Armed Assault in which you can
control a semingly unlimited number of soldiers - I personally have led 256 men into battle in a self made mission.
The one thing however, that really makes this game, is the community backing it. If you want a scenario simulated, be it a
small uprising, a bank robbery or and all out war involving two full armies made up of hundreds, if not thousands of men, you
can create it.
With Operation Flashpoint the number of modifications was just unbelievable.
What I'm trying to say is this: Any training scenario you could ever need involving squad/platoon level combat, be it CQB,
Combined Arms, or anythign else can be created by the user.
The ease in which you can create new weapons or modify existing ones means you can simulate recoil properly.
The simple and easy to learn scripting language means you can put anything that's not in game into the game.
The easy to use mission editor means you can simulate any scenario you can imagine in minutes, these scenarios can also be
randomised with a bit of scripting or just built in functions inside the editor.
For anyone with a bit of patience, Armed Assault (or VBS1/2) is the perfect training simulator for almost any kind of infantry
combat, well the best we can hope for in the near future anyway. Of course, it's nothing compared to real experience, but for
anyone on a tight budget who wishes to have a good grasp of basic military tactics Armed Assault is a great "game" to have.
Now, I'll stop as I've been rambling for quite a while now. I do hope this post is of some use to the other forum members.
Skean Dhu December 24th, 2006, 06:20 PM

Owning both Operation Flashpoint: Coldwar crisis, and the expansion pack Resistance, I can confirm the realism of the original
games. There is also a website(http://ofp.gamepark.cz/) that has terabytes of addons: maps, units, weapon sets, vehicles,
scrpits(HALO drop being a favorite of mine) so if armed assault is anything like its predecessors all of that will soon be
available for it.
On the realism, I once had to crawl the rest of a mission after being shot in the leg. And either through the release or users
efforts every weapon and vehicle that has been used in combat, and some that haven't can be found, ranging from battle
droids, the M41a1 pulse rifle, UFOs, corvettes to nailguns just to name a few.
The original series can be found for under 6 bucks online using froogle (a function of google for those who don't know).
Gerbil December 24th, 2006, 09:21 PM

I personally have led 256 men into battle in a self made mission.
On AI? Can I ask what your computer specs are? Just that I'm interested in getting this, but it sounds like you'd need
something close to a supercomputer...
blehmen December 25th, 2006, 04:48 AM

For Operation Flashpoint I was running the system below:
1.6ghz Duron,
512mb RAm,
Geforce FX5500
But for Armed Assault I upgraded to the following:

Athlon 64 X2 4200+,
2gb 667Mhz DDR2 RAM,
GeForce 7600GT PCI-E
It's not exactly top of the range, but I keep a very good FPS with most settings on high at 1024x768 (my monitor's maximum
resolution, bit of a CRT fanboy :P)
Oh, and yes, it was a group of 256 AI men, but I believe it could quite easily have been human controlled as well, not too sure
of the player limit in MP.

hmmm...my system's running it at 7fps max, and that's with the lowest possible settings :rolleyes: . The processor's
completely overloaded.
Processor: AMD 1.61Ghz (64bit)

RAM: 1GB
Graphics: GeForce FX5500
Not the best system in the world, but I'd have expected something a bit better. It runs perfectly well on HL2, etc. Time for a
graphics update, perhaps?
blehmen December 30th, 2006, 04:20 PM

That would be your graphics card causing the problem. While the FX5xxx series are supposed to have spixel shader 2.0
support, it's not very good to say the least. I had the same problem trying to run Oblivion with my old FX5500.
You're going to need anything above an FX6800, and I would recommend one in the 7xxx series or higher as they're not too
expensive and handle modern games well.
Your processor might also need a bit of a boost, overclocking might be able to do the job sufficiently. Perhaps.
MGCeilidh April 11th, 2007, 03:02 AM

Strange thing about simunitions is that it's seemingly impossible to find anyone who'll sell it to non-cop/goverment people,
like regular citizens. You can buy lethal ammo all day long, but you can't buy non-lethal training ammo, wonder why?
A long while ago I read something on Gutterfighting.org about a british army officer pressing primed cartridge casings into
soap to make a training round, its been a while and I can't find it now, the only trace I can find is the 12th post in this thread
at Glocktalk
http://aritah.com/showthread.php?threadid=337497 (relevant paragraph quoted below for convenience)
I invented it? Nope, the credit goes way beyond the time even the SEALs were invented. In an article by Dennis Martin in
Gutterfighting, he writes, "I've heard of one officer who would take primed cartridge cases and press the casemouths into
blocks of soap, forming a hard soap "bullet". He would load these into his service Webley. In the garden he would have his
servants surround him, armed with a variety of sticks and bludgeons, then at random rush him. Our hero would then respond
with well-placed shots to his human targets, giving him practise in reactive accuracy." Hmmmmm. Who is borrowing from
whom?
Obviously I would advise anyone wanting to try this to chronograph the round first and use suitable protective gear, taking the
precaution of firing a few rounds at said gear to test it might be considered a good plan as well.
One point that should be noted is that while this will work in a revolver because there is no powder charge it is highly unlikely
that the round will have enough energy to cycle the action of a semi-automatic.
Defendu April 11th, 2007, 08:33 AM

A long while ago I read something on Gutterfighting.org about a british army officer pressing primed cartridge casings into
soap to make a training round, its been a while and I can't find it now, the only trace I can find is the 12th post in this thread
at Glocktalk
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.gutterfighting.org/Skullduggery.html
megalomania April 13th, 2007, 12:49 AM

I tried playing Armed Assault (ArmA) last week. I thought it sucked actually. Maybe a bit too realistic for me. I was surprised I
died after getting shot once, as one would expect in real life, but not in a game. I actually had no idea what was going on, or
what the objectives were. There I was stuck in the middle of some former Russian craphole with many real-time miles to walk
and nobody to shoot :( (my targets ran away, as if anyone would really do that when a killer is shooting at them from the
bushes. Cowards!).
I was attracted to it by the demo movie. On my computer it seemed a bit choppy, but I should close down some autoloading
progs first. Maybe if I had the time to learn the commands and such it would be better, but I have work to do, so that's out.
The whole reason I stopped playing multiplayer FPS games is because I don't have the time to get good enough to compete
with teenagers who play these games all day, every day. If it weren't for bills I would be a master pilot on Battlefield 2, and a
terror in a mecha on Battlefield 2142.
lwtch32 May 27th, 2008, 04:44 AM

I was reading today in the Gun Digest book of Combat Handgunnery, vol2 abotu something called "imaging" - basically just
imagining your response in different situations/performing different operations. Supposedly this increases your spped at
performing these when it actually comes time to do them, without having to ever do it.
I have heard of this also. I think its called the Mind's Eye shooting course...developed from NLP. There is a section on it
Handgun Combatives by Dave Spaulding I believe.
lwtch32 May 27th, 2008, 08:17 AM

RE: Pistol Training?
I agree with what has been said so far and simunitions are the best bet still require a lot of safety to train with though so I
guess the C02 pistol option would have to do. Perhaps if we could simulate report and recoil that would be nice too.
On the wax bullets issue: I met a former Rhodesian Soldier in Durban that was working security for one of the major
auctioneers (I was hunting for a car at the time). I noticed this guy carrying and we got to talking. He told me about making
wax bullets. Basically he would load the shell with the primer and a wax bullet -- said it was good for target practice in the
passage of his house (less than 20 m) and for shooting cats! (he hated cats). Also he said the problem with this type of load
was that you had to rack the slide for each round in his auto since the primer did not produce enough gasses to blow back the
slide to re-seat a round from the mag.
file May 27th, 2008, 08:35 AM

I play America's Army some. It's not as realistic as I was lead to believe, but it has taught me a few things:
1. Run and gun gets you killed. Better to ambush.

2. People don't look down as much as they look up.
3. Use concealment, hide under things like cars(goes with rule 2). Harder to be seen means harder to get killed.
4. Things that blow up come in handy for accomplishing rule 1.
Alexires June 6th, 2008, 03:11 AM

lwtch32 - I've heard about imagining. Not in terms of firearm training, but where two sports teams ran a test. One team would
do their normal weights training while the other team would spend the time they would have been doing weights imagining
themselves doing weights. After weeks, there was no noticeable difference between the muscle mass of the blokes on each
team.
Whether this is true, I don't know, but I do know that imagining has helped me with martial arts, and I feel that martial arts
and shooting is much the same, so I'd imagine it would help there.
Also, edit your posts, don't double post. Double posting is a no-no.
MorrisOK June 6th, 2008, 09:50 PM

Realistic Paintball Guns (http://rap4.com/paintball/os/paintball-gunmarker-c-21.html)
Someone mentioned realistic paintball markers a while back, just wanted to point these out to those interested.
Also, the simple act of envisioning a target, raising your rifle and dry firing it in the privacy of your own home will go a long
ways towards improving your accuracy and reaction time.
A good method we thought of for improving reaction time is to set a number of paper plates out at a firing range, with
different numbers and letters written on them randomly. One person has a stopwatch and calls out numbers at random, and
the person shooting has to locate, and hit the paper plate that was called. This can be improved by having the shooter lower
his rifle between shots.
As for actual combat training, at this time I think paintball and/or airsoft is the best solution available to civilians. Maybe
something better will become available soon, but who knows...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Thermic Cutting Cable
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View Full Version : Thermic Cutting Cable
nbk2000 January 12th, 2003, 07:16 AM

During my research into safecracking and its related tools,I ran across this neat idea that's used by SAR and Offshore oil rig
divers.
A hollow tube is connected to a high pressure oxygen supply, using a reducer to bring the working pressure down to less than
120PSI. The oxygen tube is surrounded by a flexible braid of steel wire which acts as the fuel/flux for cutting through almost
anything via the Thermite reaction.
The outermost layer is an impermeable plastic casing to contain the oxygen and to protect the steel braid from rust and
damage.
<img src="http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/Keri_Coil.gif" alt=" - " />
In use, the oxygen is turned on from a backpack mounted tank, the reaction started with a pyrotechnic igniter, and the cut
made by feeding the cable into the cut as it is consumed.
When finished, the oxygen supply is turned off and the reaction stops almost instantly.
The commercial product uses a 20 foot coil that'll supply about 10 minutes burn time.
<img src="http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/Keri_Coil_Cutting.jpg" alt=" - " />
If you have an oxygen tank, this seems like it'd be butt simple to improvise. I wonder if a catalytic converter fueled with
baquacil H2O2 could be built to supply the needed amount of oxygen at the needed pressure.
Fl4PP4W0k January 12th, 2003, 08:30 AM

What about the H2O liquid \ vapor given off as the H2O2 decomposes?
How would one be able to separate these undesired products 'on the fly'?
That would be the only difficulty IMHO.
Having a cooling system could combat this... condense the water vapor as its emitted.
Would the H2O vapor impact all that much on the reaction of Fe \ O2 ?
nbk2000 January 12th, 2003, 03:33 PM

Screens and dissicants would take care of any water droplets/vapor.
Agent Blak January 13th, 2003, 12:43 AM

The H20 vapour shouldn't pose to be much of a problem. When Safe Cracking I would be concern about the impurities in my
flame.
Wouldn't the Thermite burn a little hot for the contents of the Safe(papper/Au/Ag/Etc). That would be my many concern.
I would imagine it would make one hell of an entry tool.
nbk2000 January 13th, 2003, 12:53 AM

Well, unlike the typical thermite reaction that, once started can't be stopped, this one can be. It's highly controllable.
Like any torch, you'd have to know what's on the other side of the target material being cut, and take steps to protect it.
Precious metals would be unaffected, while paper can be protected by injecting fire retardant foam into the target through a
small hole (drilled or cut).
The only thing that might be difficult would be a suitable oxygen tank and mount. Though a porta-torch tank is small enough
to carry, it's also limited in the amount of oxygen it carries. Likely only 2 minutes or so worth.
Ctrl_C January 13th, 2003, 01:17 AM

You can be had a backpack oxy-acetylene rig for a few hundred dollars I believe. Try major chain hardware stores like Lowes
and Home Depot.
nbk2000 January 13th, 2003, 03:58 AM

From a <a href="http://www.pommec.com/html/products/Cutting%20&%20Welding/Kerie%20cable/Kerie%20Cable.htm"
target="_blank">Retail Sales</a> website:

Helvetica"> Just as wood and paper will burn in oxygen if a flame is applied so will steel, in wire wool form. All combustible
materials have their kindling or burning points, mild steel (iron) being approximately 870 centigrade.
When iron is made harder and stronger by the inclusion of carbon, chrome etc., it becomes more difficult to burn or oxidise,
and iron rich in carbon and other impurities i.e. cast iron has literally to be melted by very high temperatures. (Iron will now be
referred to as mild steel).
Mild steel, being a very good fuel and burning at very high temperatures, can be made up into cutting lances by packing a
steel tube with thin mild steel rods and when oxygen is fed through the lance tip can be ignited.
The mild steel forming the lance will burn furiously as it consumes itself at temperatures high enough to melt concrete easily.
These lances are usually 10 ft. (3 metres) long and are used to melt, as opposed to burn or oxidise difficult materials.
As the cutting of mild steel plate does not require these high temperatures even under water, the flexible lance was developed
but using the same principle as the rigid thermic lance.
Instead of the consumable mild steel rods, flexible spiral cable with a hollow core and enclosed in plastic material is used. The
consumable metal strands of the cable having a carbon content (high tensile steel wire) therefore burn more slowly and at a
lower temperature than mild steel.
<hr /></blockquote>
Sparky January 13th, 2003, 07:31 PM

Maybe you could use potassium or sodium chlorate as an oxygen source.
It's been a long time since I read "Diary of a Pyro" so I'm hazy on details but oh well. In Diary of a Pyro the author says he
used that uses sodium (potassium?) chlorate, a fuel and I think a catalyst to release oxygen. It is lit, then put in a special
container (insulated steel box I guess). It smolders away giving off oxygen. It's meant for welding. I believe the author
specifically says that it makes much more oxygen than they could practically make from H2O2. I think they only had access to
dilute hydrogen peroxide though.
nbk2000 January 13th, 2003, 10:13 PM

Those are called "SolidOx" pellets. They're damn near impossible to find now. :( Unfortunately, they wouldn't be practical
because of the volume of oxygen needed by the thermic process.
Machiavelli January 14th, 2003, 05:42 AM

What exactly are the reasons for using strange devices instead of a simple oxygen tank here?
nbk2000 January 14th, 2003, 05:55 AM

Exactly my point. An oxygen tank is easily obtained at any welding supply shop.
Flake2m January 14th, 2003, 09:01 AM

Another good thing about this idea is if you are trying to enter a facility underwater you can run this cable straight from your
own O2 tank. This makes it less bulky in the long run, provided you make allowances for the extra oxygen
needed.
zeocrash January 14th, 2003, 02:50 PM

i would imagine that this would not be easy to light under water. als, you would not be able to fuel it from a diving cylinder as
these contain nothing more than pressureised air. Nitrox may work a bit as it is lower in nitrogen and higher in oxygen, but i
dont think it has enough oxygen.
i was wondering if armoured cable trunking for underground wiring, would be suitable for this, if not, where would i fnd
something more suitable
Zach January 14th, 2003, 04:51 PM

For those of us who are fortunate enough to live on US soil, small oxy/acetalyne setups are available at hardware stores at
ACE. Both gasses come in a metal cylender, and are a bit pricy at ace, IIRC.
PyroTech January 14th, 2003, 07:06 PM

Well if I read your post Flake2m, I'm under the impresion that you're thinking scubadiving is with 100% O2.
Helvetica"> Another good thing about this idea is if you are trying to enter a facility underwater you can run this cable straight
from your own O2 tank. This makes it less bulky in the long run, provided you make allowances for the extra oxygen needed.
<hr /></blockquote>Well let me make it clear(IF you do not get it),
you don't(want that). You would die at a certain depth that isn't deep (IIRC about 5-6 meters but is a long time ago...)
What you could do if you really need to cut something underwater, just have 2 bottles on your back, one with normal air mix
one with pure O2, make sure you'll put your regulator on the right tank :rolleyes: .
NOTE: This is not meant as a bitch post, I do not say this because I want flake2m to be wrong.
McGuyver January 14th, 2003, 10:30 PM

zach, I don't think those little containers of oxygen would be adequate. I have a jewelers welder and the container only lasts
something like 10-12 minutes while welding. The thermite would require a much larger volume of oxygen.
Lowes sells a small welding kit which has a normal small tank of oxygen and one with acetylene. The kit comes with everything
and is very portable, but I'm sure you could easily obtain just an oxygen tank from a welder supply store or something. I
haven't tried this but I've also heard hospitals will rent them to you too
nbk2000 January 15th, 2003, 12:24 AM

I've seen braided steel sheathing available at automotive stores as a protective covering for hoses. I don't know if the steel is
of the proper type though.
People keep bringing up Oxy-Acetylene. NO! This is not an acceptable substitute for the purpose to which thermic coil would be
used for. For instance, Oxy-A is NOT going to cut through tungsten or titanium. Nor concrete, or even lowly hardplate. Thermic
coil will zip right through this stuff like the proverbial hot knife through butter. :)
See the big tank on the guys back? That's enough oxygen (at 3,000PSI) for 20 feet of coil, or 10 minutes burn time.
Now, how much oxygen do you think comes in one of those little low pressure bottles you find in a porta-torch set? Maybe 6
inches worth. :rolleyes:
You'd be lucky to cut through a $4 padlock with that. :p
Speaking of underwater, I've upped a US Navy manual on underwater cutting and welding to the FTP. It has a section
describing thermic coil.
Zach January 15th, 2003, 12:24 AM

If you could steal some of these smaller containers, it could be viable I think. I had no idea it would run out that quick. I know
their small, but 10 minutes? sheeeeeeit.
[Edit] nbk, you must've posted seconds before me. also I didnt bother to let the picture load ( time constraints ) and just read
this thread quickly.
A huge tank would be a bit cumbersome on the back, so strapped to a dolly instead?
[ January 15, 2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Zach ]
Anthony January 15th, 2003, 04:54 PM

Those small oxygen bottles suck, they contain about 60gm of O2!
The automotive hose braid if stainless steel, got some 1 1/2 inch stuff in the garage somewhere. IIRC, stainless is mild steel
with added chromium, I don't think it has significantly higher carbon content, so it may well be suitable.

Yeah I wasn't implying that the acetylene be used with the oxygen. It was just a source for an oxygen tank if someone
couldn't find a welder supply store around, or a any other source.
nbk2000 January 15th, 2003, 11:41 PM

Ah, but the tanks that come in the welding kits at Lowes are sold EMPTY. You'd still have to go to a welders supply to get them
filled up. :( So you might as well buy them there in the first place.
Machiavelli January 16th, 2003, 07:42 AM

As for the small oxygen bottles, they can still be useful. One thermic lance manufacturer sells a kit using these to LE/mil.
While they only burn for about 30 seconds, that's enough time to remove steel bars from a window, go through a drill-resistant
lock or push it right through the most expensive and difficult to replace part on a 20 million dollar piece of machinery.
[ January 16, 2003, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: Machiavelli ]
angelo January 16th, 2003, 07:58 AM

Is the commercially available set-up expensive or resricted to certain specialist services?
Surely the bought stuff would be set up for the best cutting ability. Sure you could work it out improvising it but it would take
time and money. Probably as much as a commercial set-up.
Of course if this stuff is only available to certain companies or to specialist contractors then its that understandable to want to
imrovise your own set-up.
Murphy's law is certain to kick in with an improvised set-up when you need it the most. Where as with a comercial set-up its
pretty much guaranteed to work.
A-BOMB January 16th, 2003, 10:07 AM

I have one of those small Oxy-mapp gas welding kits with the 2oz bottle of O2, but I never pay for them I just bring the
empty bottle to my local True-value and switch the bottle out for a new one. And then I write "empty" on it so if anyone askes
me about why I'm walking out of the store with a bottle, I can tell them I brought it along to see compare it yours to see it you
had the same type. I do that to them about once a week :D
Machiavelli January 16th, 2003, 12:56 PM

In Germany, a normal thermic lance setup will set you back ~1300 Euro, with extra lances sold for 2-10 Euro. As for the cable
devices, I haven't seen them over here yet.
nbk2000 January 16th, 2003, 11:43 PM

I've read that ordinary "black" (ungalvanized) steel water pipe will work the same way too. Though it requires an oxy-A torch to
get it lit.
There's an old movie called "Thief", with James Caan (SP?), who uses a Thermic lance to cut into a vault. I remember seeing
that movie and it made quit an impression on me to see a huge slab of steel being cut out of a vault door. :)
I don't think there's any restrictions on the normal commercial setup, other than the multi-thousand dollar cost. :( But the
"tactical" versions that I've seen that are portable backpack-style ARE. :( :mad:

I have some black steel pipe. It is specifically used for propane. As soon as I get my acetylene refilled, I'll try to make a
thermic lance. I suppose I should heat up the end with the torch first to get it hot then pump oxy/acetylene through it?
Agent Blak January 17th, 2003, 12:27 AM

you can use a tube filled with soemthing similiarto mig wire. and run O2 down the tube. You use a small Cap bank to Start it.
How it works:
The Wires are Conected to Either + or -. The other Charge is hooked up to a metal Plate(Small It is just for striking). You turn
on your O2 so it is running through thetube with the Wire. You strike the Plate Brings the Metal to Kindling Temp and the O2
Continues the Combustion(oxidizing of the wire). You would have a Valve similiars to that which is on a cutting rig(O2/Fuel).
you would bring the Tip of you lance to metal. Allow it to heat up SLightly and let it rip 200PSI of O2.
Another option is to modify an old Bus box(AC Arc Welder to hold these lances(Hollow). once againas soon as you strik wait to
Seconds and give a Blast of somewhere around 200LBS or O2. A lot of the cheap Buzz Boxes uses standard 120 AC. All it
would require is a Lance and a mod to the handle.
nbk2000 January 17th, 2003, 12:41 AM

I found the patent for the flexible thermic cable.
US #3591758
You want to use ONLY O2. Acetylene is used as a fuel with the oxygen in an Oxy-A torch. In the thermic lance,
the target material and steel pipe/wire serves as the fuel, thus you only need to supply the oxygen to do the cutting.
[ January 16, 2003, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
Boob Raider May 13th, 2003, 03:27 PM

How about if I take a # 10 solid wire and wrap steel wool around it and then with some skill wrap this up with wide clear packing
tape or similar stuff and after that pull out the center # 10 wire. This should leave me with a tubular steel sponge with a mildly
pressure resistant sleve on it. Since steel wool burns in air .... so theoritically ..... this fuse should burn of even the feed of a
small airbrush compressor and really nicelly with the small O2 bottle for small durations.
Comments ?
SATANIC May 25th, 2003, 04:00 AM

No offence, but anything that you can cut with something that small can probably be snapped in half by hand. It would be nice,
just to see the way it works though. You might have to make the casing stronger......
Is this thread about thermic lances, or more specifically about 'flexible cutting hose' ?
If you were using steel wool, then wouldn't there be enough of a gap inbetween the steel wool to let the air through ? Like
c'mon, there's more gaps in steel wool than there is steel wool right ? Then you could just jam as much steel wool into the
hose or whatever you're using as possible, and off you go.
Like has been said, the hard bit would be the O2 cylinder right ? once that's sorted, pressurised connections etc are needed for
the joining, and it could work. My only worry - is steel wool too fine ? IIRC, original thermic lances used steel rod inside steel
pipe, so there's a big difference in rod / fine wool.
Aaron-V2.0 January 13th, 2004, 02:00 AM

I recently picked up a welding book that has all these different techniques listed and brought this thread back to my mind.
The book is "Modern Welding" published by The Goodheat-Willcox Company, ISBN 1-56637-605-X
None of the cutting techniques use a rubber jacketed steel braided hose though.
Exothermic Cutting
Exothermic cutting is the closest thing to NBK's technique I found. An O2 cylinder w/ regulator has O2 feed into an 3/4"-3/8"
OD steel pipe which has 6 smaller steel rods inserted into the end and crimped so they dont fall out. A 12V battery is then
hooked up to the setup, the positive to the cutting rod and the negative to a thick copper "Strike Plate". You start with the O2
off and you strike the cutting rod onto the strike plate, when it heats up you feed O2 which oxidizes the steel rods and then
allows you to cut with temps around 10,000F.
This technique is also used by divers.
This seems the best for getting into that safe that Aunt Milly lost the key for.
Now, an actual Oxygen Lance is an 8 foot section of 1/2" steel pipe that dumps O2 onto a patch of preheated steel. It's the
same general idea of the Exothermic cutting technique but it requires the use of an Oxy/Acetylene torch to heat the steel to
oxidizing temps and the lance just feeds O2 to the patch which burns the steel away. On large cuts a torch is required to
constantly heat the steel.
So, this could be made pretty simply. O2 Bottle, regulator down to 120PSI and a pistol grip blowgun, the blowgun's 1/8" NPT
outlet is fitted with a Quick-Connect airfitting and the cutting sticks with small spring steel "fuel" rods are JB welded into the
end of quick-connects so you can hook one up quick and easy. You have a 12V auto battery and have one wire leading to the
cutting rod but just strike the rod against the negative electrode to fire it off, just open the blowgun and away you go.
Also, I told my friend's father about this and he mentioned he has a setup like it, I'm going to try to get him to show me it as
his shop's so packed it's hard to walk in.
And I'll take photos of the book's pages (Or scans if I get the scanner working) for anyone who cant find the book.

Aaron, Instead of having to heat the steel with an Oxy-Acetylene torch, why not just use an Oxy-Acetylene cutting torch? It is
basically similar to a standard welding torch (uses the same cylinders and whatnot) except instead of having one big hole for
the flame to come out of, it has 6 smaller ones that surround one big hole that a stream of oxygen comes out of. So,
basically it heats the metal up and cuts it away at the same time.
It is used in a very similar way to a normal Oxy-Acetylene welding torch, you light it and adjust the flame as normal, then you
heat the metal red hot at the start of the cut before pushing down the oxygen button and moving the torch across the metal.
Once you are started, you can cut through a 3/4inch steel plate at about a metre per minute.

How portable is a plasma cutter? I have seen 2" thick steel being cut like a blow torch through butter. Cutting rate was
approximately 20-25 seconds per metre, and it cuts bloody cleaner than an oxy torch, you dont even to grind it or anything.
Anyway just a thought (more likely a half cent contribution to this thread but I believe that plasma cutting should be looked
at).
Aaron-V2.0 January 15th, 2004, 01:20 AM

I have a plasma cutter and yet it would be great although there's a few requirements for them. My model is rated for 1/4" and
only does 3/16" steel, it requires 110V 20A with a surge around 25A. Most banks dont have 1/4" steel plate on a vault door or
a 110V 20A line, the heaviest electrical load would be a bank of computers. I imagine the larger models would require 220V
which obviously you wont find that kind of recepticle in a bank.
Then there's cost, my model was $500, next size up being $2000 for 1/2" capabilities. But I imagine it would be in line with
the RTPB of invest 10% of the predicted take, it'd be well worth it then. But then you still have the electrical supply problem.
I believe an Oxy/Acetylene cutting torch would work fine coupled with a fire extinguisher to put out the fires resulting from it's
use.
That's another thing to deal with, all of these cutting techniques create smoke (And lots of it!) and soon trip the fire alarm
sending many firemen and likely police to the bank, basically another line of defense for the bank. The best bet would
probably be a length of large diameter of dryer type tube with a high speed fan to work as an exhaust hood. The business
end of the tube/exhuast would have to be concealed otherwise someone might wonder what a hose is doing sticking out of a
bank's doors...
nbk2000 January 16th, 2004, 05:07 PM

There are plasma torches can cut up to a foot of steel...if you've got $20K to buy it. :eek:
For these kind of cutters, unless you're breaking into an industrial plant, you're going to have to bring your own powersupply in
the form of a generator because there's not going to be any 220/440V 3-phase outlets handily available to plug it into.
Next, you'll need the smoke removal hoods. These can take on the form of nomex tarps attached over the cutting area, with
powerful fans sucking the smoke away from the work area.
This works for keeping the smoke from setting off the fire alarm in the target, but where do you get rid of the smoke? If you
simply blow it outside, isn's someone going to see or smell it? Very likely. So, down the sewer it goes, with a nice water mist
added to it to wash it out of the air and down the drain. :)
Exothermic lances are nice

plasma too
but not CO2!
Lasers are for precision

Torches, dissection
Crims don't have time for indecision!
Shame on you
For making NBK
write cutting torch hiaku!
:D
(And I know god-damn well the above doesn't follow hiaku structure! :p)
Lasers suck at energy conversion. You put in 1K watts and get less than 1 watt out as laser energy. Don't forget the loss of
energy coupling it into the target. Plasma is much more efficient. And exo-torches are KISS compliant, being nothing more
than an oxygen tank attached to a steel tube.
And, if one was going to go into a bank, fuck the front door! That's the best protected part of the whole vault! Go through the
floor. ;)
Yes, digging tunnels is a bitch, but that's what they've got machines for. Micro-tunnel borers are used by city utilities for boring
pipeholes for sewers and such.
A borer for 3' tunnels would cost about $40K, but think about the utility of a machine that lets you dig a yard diameter hole at
a rate of a yard per hour (depending on soil type), and shored up by concrete pipe pushed in by hydralic rams.
How long would it take you do dig a tunnel a few hundred yards from the basement of an unused building to the underside of
a bank vault? A couple weeks? If the vault is one of the large ones like the main banks in NYC (Chase, Occidential, etc), you'd
easily come up with many millions.
Neutralizing the alarms is a different proposition.
However, if the vault was sealed shut from the inside, by tack welding the door shut, and your tunnel is coming from much
further away than they would expect....what can they do about the alarm? They'll have to break into the vault themselves
which, since the door is welded shut, means cutting a man sized hole in it. That'd take them hours.
How many hours would it take you to haul out all the cash and such? A lot fewer than it'd take them to get in. :)
streety January 16th, 2004, 07:55 PM

OK, this is coming for the movies now so it is probably complete rubbish but won't they have seismic sensors and such? Detect
your tunneling before you get anywhere near?
vulture January 17th, 2004, 06:48 AM

If you're using a thermic lance, vibrations will be nearly nil. One would think these sensors do not have any temperature
sensors, as this is rather unconventional and costly. Every security system has it's Achilles heel.
streety January 17th, 2004, 08:18 AM

I didn't mean with the thermic lance but with the tunneling under the vault that nbk suggested. I agree that the thermic lance
itself wouldn't create sufficient vibrations to set of any seismic sensors.
James January 21st, 2004, 03:57 AM

I was watching Mail Call on the History channel a couple of days ago when I ran across a reference to Petrogen
(www.petrogen.com) cutting torches. Petrogen cutting torches are (appearently) used by military firefighters in traing at least to
cut thicker metal faster then an acetylene torch could. I hit google for for more information. I only found the vendors spiel. It
looks interesting though runs on ordinary gasoline, (supposedly) no carbon monoxide is produced. A couple of people could
cart the (full size) kit around and it cuts something like 10" steel at 7"/minute (http://www.petrogen.com/performance.html).
the flash April 20th, 2005, 02:31 AM

Watch the movie "Thief" starring James Caan (sp?). In the movie they use some thermic lances to open a safe.



The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > The car that makes the man
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DaRkDwArF January 14th, 2003, 03:08 AM

We've probably talked about dozen of different tools and gear that may prove essential to your job, but what about cars?
What type of car would you use and why?

What if you were on a limited budget?
What type of gadgets would yu deck it out with and what type of enhancements would you give it?
My current car is a 79 model Mini Clubman GT, I've got mounts for a cellphone, GPS and can connect both to my laptop which I
sit on the pasengers seat, all run off an invertor on the passengers side right next to a mini extinguisher.
I've got a kill sitch for the fuel pump under the passengers side set (for fire and it's better then an alarm, I'veadded an extra
set of halos on the front for better visibility, a stage one kit and tuned her at a dyno. She now hits 175km max, for a mini
thats impressive.
People may bag this choice of car, but I find it excels in my urban enviroment, it's easy to repair, can fit on walkways and
down thin alleys, even down staircases (see Bourne Identity Crisis), it's a very versitile car for it's purpose.
Zach January 15th, 2003, 12:54 AM

a shitty car bought with cash, under a false name with in transit shit in the windows. then dispose of it somehow, probably.
nbk2000 January 15th, 2003, 01:43 AM

The car would have to be suitable for the "job" planned.
For normal life, any decent car would be fine. Though if you're wanted...some "accessories" might be nice. <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I don't think all the Bond type gadgets would be really useful. The only things I'd think of practical use would be some smoke
projectors and fragile cardboard boxes filled with caltrops that you'd toss out the window when being persued through narrow
streets.
Oil slicks, mines, tear gas, strobes, etc...useless fluff.
A CRAWDAD (Close RAange Wide Dispersal Automotive Defense) system would be nice. A little angle iron, some det-cord, and
homemade WP... :D
Or a couple minimores that'd pivot down from the undercarrige of the vehicle, backed by steel frag plates and bound pumice
to prevent blowing yourself up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , that'd skip frags off the road into the
legs of any approaching foes, cutting them off at the knees...literally! :p
If you had some kevlar in your cars roof, you could have a simple PVC pipe mortar toss a reactivated grenade above the car
with a VERY short time delay so it'd airburst right above your car, showering the immediate vicinity with frags (or WP if you've
got it). I'd actually prefer WP since it'd be MUCH quiter, would obscure any snipers LOS, and make for one hell of a deterrent
to further approaches. :)
In areas that forbid dark tinting, you could use polarized film instead. By crossing the sheets on opposite windows, it prevents
people from seeing you, but is still clear enough to pass any tint test the piggies may apply to it. After all, there's no laws
against polarized windows. :p
A temporary tag is a nice thing to have for any "borrowed" vehicle you may be driving. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> I've got a blank one for my state all templated in PS7. RTPB "Better to have it and not need it..."
[ January 15, 2003, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
mrloud January 15th, 2003, 04:23 AM

I wrote to <a href="http://www.leefilters.com" target="_blank">this</a> company a while back enquireing about the cost of a
sheet of their polarising filter. Ye Gods it was expensive! I can't remember the exact price but it was in the range of AU$450
for a few (three or four) square feet.
My plan was to put a sheet of it over the number plate on my car. It is possible (I have no idea if it is fact) that police speed
cameras have a polarising filter over the lens to cut out glare. If it turned out to be true, the filter would cause my number
plate to appear as a black rectangle to the camera, yet be visible to the naked eye. The only *IF* (and it's a big if) in the
plan was that it would require the alignment of the filter over my number plate to be the same as the alignment in polarised
sun glasses, and 90o to the cop's lens. Otherwise, the game would be lost.
The next plan I came up with was somewhat more technical.

I have read about a device that detects the flash of a speed camera and discharges a stobe lamp loacted next to a cars
number plate. This causes the piggies film to be overexposed and your plate to be unreadable. Naturally, such devices are
highly illegal in Australia and if the cops see your car 'flash' them back, there'll be hell to pay.
Instead of hooking up the device to a flash tube, connect it to a big liquid crystal plate. With some modification you could
have a device that blacks out your number plate at the instant the camera tried to take your picture.
I would also have a manual overide switch installed so I could black out the number plate at will. Such a device could be useful
in many activites that range from slightly to highly illegal. You'd have to be careful, but if you were descreet, the most anyone
would say is: "Whoa! I better lay off those magic mushrooms for a bit!"
nbk2000 January 15th, 2003, 05:24 AM

It's a lot cheaper when you buy it as surplus material.
DaRkDwArF January 15th, 2003, 08:42 AM

Seen it about in electronics surplus stores around australia, try oatley electronics in sydney
I was thinking of some sort of smoke screen, but I think the best car would be something that runs for under $400 from a
private sale, no rego, just grind the numbers off and trick it out to serve as a "one use" vehicle... ovbviously a 4 door would be
of more use in case there was more shit then expected to carry with you, you have to take a hostage or you hit the bank on a
good day :D
NBK has a good point about throwing caltrops out the window as opposed to having some sort of dispersal system, too much
shit to go wrong, especially when it's under the stress of a high speed chase...
I had an idea of mounting 4 shooters lights on the roof of the car on switches, two facing slighty to each side for wider angled
viewing, and two facing on acute angles to the left and right of the rear of the vehicle, imaging these in a piggies face while
their trying to chase you down in the middle of the night :D

You can buy number plates that "black" out when flashed. I remember a demo done with a digital camera with flash connected
to a laptop and the plates worked. Unless of course, the laptop always loaded a doctered picture <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I think they only tested it at close range though.
I didn't realise that a counter-flash was a commercial product. A little while ago, my dad suggested the same thing to me and
I put it together - a disposable camera flash unit triggered by a commerical flash detector. Very compact and initial testing
showed an effective range of 25yds+ (didn't test further). I never got round to adding a voltage dropper to run the unit from
the vehicle's 12v battery so it hasn't had real-world testing yet.

Although having a number plate that blacks out on call would be good, wouldn't a number plate that changes be better?
I know it is so bond, but when you plan on speeding, a simple flick of a switch, a lock disengages the number plate, an electric
motor kicks in and it simply flips over the number plate where on the back you have another plate.
Of course you will have to cut a major hole in the car where the number plate is but it would come in handy, because if your
driving a car with a number plate, the pigs or whoever else is chasing you will be looking for that car with the same number
plate. But with a changing number plate you could do something dodgy, park the car and flick a switch making your car sit
there with a real number plate.
For other upgrades I'd have to go with caltrops, smoke emitting devices and something that drops in front of the wheels (out
of the wheel wells) to 'sweep' anything out of the way that might puncture the tyres. And just in case this doesn't work, run-flat
rims.
[ January 16, 2003, 04:57 AM: Message edited by: angelo ]
nbk2000 January 16th, 2003, 09:18 PM

I've thought that you could use a regular printer with starch paper to make a plate that'll dissolve when wetted with water,
leaving behind the real plate. It'd not be hard at all to spray some water on the plate while driving down the road. :)
Maybe even just use some water soluble paint to change the letters on your real plate a bit. An "L" becomes an "E", or an "I"
becomes an "H". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Also, I've seen stick on "flame" decals for cars that are removable. Put some big ol' funky flames where witnesses can't but
help noticing. Then, when away from the scene, pull off the flames.
The witnesses are all going to be saying "flames", so that's what the cops are going to be looking for, while you're driving
along quit calmly sans flames on your car. :)
The Jackel was a lame movie, but it did have a neat scene where he had painted a car with a water soluble paint, and used a
high pressure washer to strip it off in a minute. Same thing could be done to your car.

I remember that scene well, though he'd have been screwed if it had been raining :) It wouldn't have been much bother to
have another car waiting and just switched, unless the car was carrying something which couldn't easily be transfered - I can't
remember.
For escaping persuit, I think you need to either rely on outright speed or maneuverability. I'd avoid long straight roads/
freeways, unless I was sure that I could outrun the persuing cars. Although they'd know where you were going (not many
choices on a freeway) so can set up roadblocks or intercept you.
The alternative would be to have a slower, lighter, more maneuverable car and either stay in a built up area or take to windy
back roads. You want something that really sticks to the road, allowing you to corner faster, and take turns late that your
pursuer can't manage, and keep turning, turning until you lose them. You might never go above 60 or 70mph so a "fast" car
isn't necessary, just something "nippy" and they'd have a hell of a time predicting where you're going.
For that reason, I think DaRkDwArF's mini is a good choice. Light and nippy and "turns on a sixpence" as we sometimes say
over here. The GPS would help make sure you don't go in a circle back to your pursuers if turning profusely - if you had time
to look at it.
McGuyver January 17th, 2003, 12:40 AM

My suggestion would be a all-wheel drive car like a eagle talon or eclipse GSX commonly known as dsm cars. These cars have
4 cylinders but they can be slightly modified to house large turbos, many come stock with smaller ones. You can make these
cars run 10's pretty easily with wheel horsepower at around 500. These would be the perfect getaway car in my opinion. They
are quite good on fuel because of the 4 cylinders. If there was no worry about fuel of course I'd have to go with a new viper.
Twin turbos on a 10 cylinder :D . 0-60 in 2.4 seconds :D . God, I love those things.
As for disguising the vehicle large sheet magnets could be used as long as you don't have too much fiberglass, that is. I'm
not too sure if there is such a thing is made, but this would take away the rain issue. This idea could also would for license
plates...hold up, are they made out of steel?... not sure. If they are, a electromagnet could hold a fake license plate on top of
a real one. Then, with the flip of a switch the fake one drops off to reveal the real one.
Energy84 January 17th, 2003, 12:53 AM

If you live in the country or plan to be in the country when doing risky business, I think you'd be better off having a big 4X4. I
know a few guys already who have been chased by police but instead of speeding away on the road, they just slowed down,
took the ditch and floored it across a farmers field! :D Worked like a charm.
I've known of instances too where crimes were commited in snowstorms so that the cops wouldn't have a chance of catching
their 'prey'. When you have very reduced visibility (less than 100 meters) there's not much chance of the cops seeing which
way you just turned at the next intersection. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> You just need to make
sure that you have good traction on ice and snow.
The two features that'd I'd love most to have on any vehicle would be the rotating licence plates and a switch to turn off all
lights except for those on your dashboard. (Use dimmer switch to keep lights low, then you can still see your vehicles vital
stats.) I know that the running lights on most vehicles older than '93-'94 can be turned off by pushing in the parking brake
just a notch, which is good for night time, but it's the brake lights that worry me. Also, when the night time lights are turned
off, other lights such as the radio and clock become brighter (for daytime use). This is another reason to keep the dashboard
lights on but dimmed.

if i recall, the paint in the jackal wasn't water soluble, it was just latex paint that came off easily w/ a pressure washer. A good
pressure washer takes any type of paint off well, especially latex on a smooth (clearcoat) surface.

I knew I had left out something, energy84 and I seem to be on the same freq.
Speaking of frequencies, a police scanner would be a vital tool.
The problem with an electromagnet dropping the plate would be that the plate could be picked up by a piggy, then they would
search all cars with the same colour/model/etc... Thats the good thing about the the revolving plates.
You could even go one step further and have even more than two plates, three would be easy to do, as would four. Anymore
would be to much of a hassle and would require you to have a dedicated machine for it, which means more weight and fucks
up the whole RTPB methodoligy (K.I.S.S).
The thing that has hit professional car people that put their cars in shows are chameleon paint jobs, from one angle the car
looks yellow, form another purple and from another angele they look green. Of course this is expensive and makes your car
stick out like a sore thumb when your going legal.

I was saying the electromagnet would be behind the real plate, but the real plate would never come off. The real plate is
attached to your car as it normally is. Just now when the electromagnet is on, another(fake plate) will stick to your real plate.
Therefore, when the electromagnet is turned off the fake plate will fall off and who cares if the police get it, it won't do them
any good, because it won't belong to a car.
Yeah those cars were metioned for civilized areas, like in a big city there aren't to many fields or ditches that will stop the cops
from tailing you. In these instances acceleration and speed would be key.
john_smith January 17th, 2003, 08:20 PM

Helvetica">Or a couple minimores that'd pivot down from the undercarrige of the vehicle, backed by steel frag plates and
bound pumice to prevent blowing yourself up , that'd skip frags off the road into the legs of any approaching foes, cutting
them off at the knees...literally! <hr /></blockquote>Would it be
feasible to mount larger claymores to the rear of the car to take out the pursuing cop car?
Helvetica">but I think the best car would be something that runs for under $400 from a private sale, no rego, just grind the
numbers off and trick it out to serve as a "one use" vehicle... <hr /></blockquote>If they're really after you, this alone won't help. Besides the VIN's, cars contain hundreds of parts that have their
own serial numbers on them. If they can get the manufacturer's production records, it's possible to determine the car's
production date quite accurately. This gives'em a rough starting point, then they can look up the DMV database, compare the
colour etc... Ther was a system called FINAS(sp?) developed in Germany in mid-90's that was used for checking outbound cars
on the border. Basically they fed various part numbers into computer to get the approximate production date and if it didn't
match with the date in car's slip it was probably stolen and had it's VIN changed. Don't know if it's still used...probably it is, if
ther isn't something better already.
Helvetica">I had an idea of mounting 4 shooters lights on the roof of the car on switches, two facing slighty to each side for
wider angled viewing, and two facing on acute angles to the left and right of the rear of the vehicle, imaging these in a piggies
face while their trying to chase you down in the middle of the night <hr /></blockquote>A 500.000 cd light on a kind of adjustable stand, fitted with a wire frame with a couple of suction cups(sp?) for
quick installation on a "borrowed" cars's rear window ledge... I've actually built a very crude prototype and it worked quite well,
except that
1) the light reflected back from the glass to some extent, enough to become annoying in the mirror, and
2) it looked just like that, aka a suspicious big-ass light on window ledge, facing backward. Tossing an old mosquito net over it
helped to make it look like some clothing article , in dark, at first glance...somewhat. Anyway, this thing is worth having IMO.
Helvetica">I was saying the electromagnet would be behind the real plate, but the real plate would never come off. The real
plate is attached to your car as it normally is. Just now when the electromagnet is on, another(fake plate) will stick to your real
plate. <hr /></blockquote>Wouldn't the real plate shield the second
plate from the electromagnetic field...don't remember. However, there'd be ways around this. Good idea :)
[ January 17, 2003, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: john_smith ]
nbk2000 January 17th, 2003, 09:49 PM

Something you might be able to do with the rear-facing lights:
Use a magnetic mount to attach the light to the underside of the trunk lid. Run the power cord through the rear seat or
through a small hole punched through the lid and have the plug ready to go into the lighter socket. Use wire or cord to adjust
it so that the trunk lid, when popped from the interior release, will open to just high enough to be shining the light straight into
the piggies eyes.
This way, there's nothing showing while you're driving, there's no reflection off the rear window to dazzle you, plus the raised
trunk lid might even deflect an incoming bullet if the pigs are so imprudent as to fire at you while in pursuit.
As for a military claymore...BAD IDEA! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
They pack almost a kilo of C-4. That's a little too much, too close. A minimore is only a couple ounces. For a full sized
claymore, you'd need a well constructed, and THICK, steel box with support frame, and mount it with a sizeable amount of
blast attenuation foam. Even then, you're taking a big chance.
Though for taking out persuers, I'd use short lengths of rebar, rather than shot, to provide for a large cutting and crushing
surface against their radiator, battery, hoses, etc. You'd want them aimed for the engine compartment and windshield. It's
difficult to continue driving when you've had a windshield explode into fragments in your face at 120MPH. <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D
I could see having some reactivated grenades attached to 20 yard lengths of cord. These would be fired straight back to the
rear of your car into the path of persuing piggies.
You'd simply slow down till you're 20 yards from them, fire the launcher (a simple pipe with a tiny amount of BP), and the
grenade will explode right in their faces since the cord holds it at the proper range. Use a 1 second delay so piggies don't have
time to avoid it by slamming on their brakes. :)
Agent Blak January 17th, 2003, 10:07 PM

Are slicks Realistic? WOuld a mix or Grease nd water be enough?
If you were to put large rims on with solid rubber tires the would render Spikes useless wouln't it?
The SNow storm bring up the great idea of Using snow mobile as transport.So will go more than 100mph! <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
As a get away car you should take into consideration that you may have to ram something out of the way. I would go with a
well made Europian car volvo, BMW, Audi an 80's is all you need. Prefer fuel injection is best.
Maybe an AMC Eagle; 4x4, 4 door, built like a rock(handles a little better)
angelo January 17th, 2003, 10:41 PM

I meant they would look for the car. Not the car with the numberplate.
Since they have the fake plate they know you changed plates. Therefore they will rely on other characteristics of your car. Like
color or model.
And if you have just blown a cop car up with a grenade they would certainly be out to get you and would not care if they have
to search a thousand cars.
john_smith January 18th, 2003, 12:02 AM

Hmm...the grenade launchers sound realy niiice :D Directional charges with instant detonation (flying claymores :D ) would
probably be even better (however, small powder charge + rearwad firing = small airspeed = stabilization being a bitch).
The trunk mounted light is nice too, provided the magnet is strong enough.
Helvetica">As a get away car you should take into consideration that you may have to ram something out of the way. I would
go with a well made Europian car volvo, BMW, Audi an 80's is all you need. Prefer fuel injection is best.
<hr /></blockquote>In fact, Bimmers suck when it comes to ramming.
Most have I6-s that barely fit in their short engine compartments. Ther isn't enough room to stick a finger between the
radiator and a fan blade. Don't know about Audis and Volvos, but (almost) all of their 80's models were slow as shit. As for
fuel injection, newer cars tend to have an automatic fuel cutoff switch that turns the fuel pump off in case of a crash...I
uploaded an article about ramming on the ftp a couple of weeks ago that has more detailed info about this...the title was
something like "Escaping the Kill Zone" IIRC.
The minimores would be especially effective for providing some "cover fire" when crashing a roadblock :D
nbk2000 January 18th, 2003, 12:39 AM

Ever seen those fools who have a trunk filled with speakers so they can annoy everyone within a mile? The things take up the
entire trunk.
IDEA:
Replace the trunk lid with what looks like a trunk lid but is, in fact, a false lid made of frangible plastic or foil that covers a
"battery" box. This battery consisting of short pipe mortars pointed in all directions, filled with various nasties.
Those aimed to the front would fire frag grenades to reach behind road blocks, taking out the piggies guarding it, at long
range (several hundred yards). Those to the rear would fire caltrops or direct fire grenades. Those to the sides could fire
smoke to hide your movements.
And there'd even be a few that fire airbursting shells straight up to spray your immediate surroundings with shrapnel to clear
off any surrounding pork, since one of their favorite tactics is to surround you from all sides and shoot you since you can't
shoot all of them at the same time while they're surrounding you. But this isn't a problem with airburst fragmentation
grenades. :D
This isn't the sort of shit you'd be driving around with everyday. No...this is for your final "mission" where you've decided
you've had enough of living and want to go out with a (bad pun alert!) BANG.
Now, if you have a pick-up truck with the bed converted to a battery... <img src="http://d106112.u27.qwknetllc.com/ubb/icons/
icon23.gif" alt=" - " />. I'm veering off the immediate topic, sorry.
Flake2m January 18th, 2003, 01:21 AM

BMW's are not good for ramming. I witessed a prang last year when I volvo was rear-ened by a BMW. The Volvo did not even
have a broken tail light yet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> the BMW had a busted radiator a buckled
bonnet aswell as a pissed off driver.
A car that is good for ramming needs a bull-bar and a fairly heavy chasis, plus none of the impact zone crap. The downside is,
that they are generally not as fast. I would go for a mercedes as they are heavy and have an engine with a fair bit of grunt
:cool: .
nbk2000 January 18th, 2003, 03:55 PM

Volvo's are well known for being built like tanks. They even had an ad once that compared the two. :)
But they're about as speedy as a tank, so they're not for the fast getaway.
kingspaz January 18th, 2003, 06:18 PM

if you soup the engine up then a volvo would go quick enough. is true about them being built like tanks though. if they wern't
i'd be dead.
i'd like one of these though:
<img src="http://www.tx4x4.com/images/coolhummer.jpg" alt=" - " />
[ January 18, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
mark January 18th, 2003, 09:49 PM

The thing I'd want most for my car would be a "Evidence dropper" in the trunk. Since I just made that up a second ago, I'll
elaborate. Basicaly, it would be some sort of contraption in the trunk that you could use to drop any illicit materials you might
be carrying. I figured a hole could be cut in the trunk to mount a box with a trapdore in it. Whenever I wanted to transport an
ounce or a gun, Id just leave it in the box. Then, If im getting pulled over, I can just press the button and away It goes. If I
still had any money left over, I'd have a tracking system hooked up to the stuff so I could find it later.

Another idea that's a bit "Bond" but might not be that far off in near future.
Most cars already have antilock brakes and some form of electronic traction control. Now it seems that more and more
manufacturers are switching to electrical power steerings. Also, surveillance cameras have become relatively cheap and
plentiful.
While making a "normal" car radio controlled would require custombuilt accurate, powerful, and work/time consuming to install
servos, thus being impractical for anybody but the movie industry, said newer cars already come with a complete fly-by-wire
system. To make them RC, theoretically, all you need would be the control box (preferably with software for all or most such
cars), and converting a freshly "borrowed" car could be done by just cutting some wires and attaching a couple of alligator clips.
Uses for this would be obvious, including but not limited to
a poor man's cruise missile, or
a convincing decoy for drawing the attention of piggies and covering your more subtle extraction from the crime scene.
it's just theory by now (in fact, I've never even seen an EPS unit "in person"), so if anybody knows more about car electronics
in question...
nbk2000 January 19th, 2003, 01:06 AM

Well, if we're talking future possibilities here, then what about the self-steering cars that they're developing? Eventually cars
could drive themselves using onboard GPS and sensors. I'd assume the piggies would have some way to remotely stop such
cars, but that could be cut out. If the car is driving itself, and piggies think you're in it... :p ...you're going in the opposite
direction. :)
If the road was devoid of traffic, than it might be possible to use differential GPS to follow a pre-driven course. Since the car
wouldn't have any obstacle avoidance sensors, there couldn't be any traffic on the road, but road usually don't have traffic on
them if they're being blocked off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I always thought it a good idea to have a floor panel that you could open at your feet to drop things out of sight when pulled
over, or being chased. You'd want to keep such items inside of a piece of garbage like a flattened can so that the pigs don't
go back looking for it, thinking it was just road trash and not something you dropped.
Also, a funnel attached to a short length of hose that leads to the underside of the vehicle would have use on long road trips
since you'd simply whip "it" out and piss down the funnel without having to stop anywhere where piggies might ambush you or
someone might recognize you from TV (if wanted). The less exposure you have to the public, and the less time you spend
immobile, the better.
As for self-steering cars...guess it will take quite some time. EPS however is already used on many cars. Like BMW Z4, most if
not all Saturns, some Opels and Renaults, and probably a bunch of other models I can't remember.

For ramming, you're back to 4x4 with real-deal bullbars, not that plastic crap.
A remote driven car would be easy - there's already plenty of people doing it for fun to "fight" them. You need two
substational motors, wheelchair motors would be well suited, and often come in pairs. One mated to the steering wheel shaft,
and on on a linkage to operate the brake pedal. Then you need two lighter duty motors, say windscreen wiper motors, one to
operate the throttle, and one to shift the automatic box between drive and reverse.
Could be driven via a decent 4 channel RC set if you can see the car. Better would be to integrate two or more cameras. Those
cheap CCD home CCTV cameras would be ok. A high power video transmitter might be hard to obtain, you might be able to
transmit as analog data over a CB, I don't know. The control commands could be transmitted as DTMF tones over the CB. With
a non-tweaked CB you should get a range of about 40 miles.
DaRkDwArF January 21st, 2003, 12:40 AM

The best thing about gps software is that you can mark waypoints onto your streetmaps, so you can highlight routes in
different colours, mark possible hiding positions, stashes, and mark roadblocks etc as you go past them (easier if theres a
passenger to shoot and mark)
Hummers are alot heavier then a 4WD, really only usefull if your planning to make a stand, their also alot larger and wider
then most 4WD, think carefully aobut what our going to use...
Axt January 21st, 2003, 03:34 AM

<img src="http://ww1.ft100.com/~45653/guns.ft100.com/banners/lr1.jpg" alt=" - " />
<a href="http://ww1.ft100.com/~45653/guns.ft100.com/banners/lr2.jpg" target="_blank">rear quarter view</a>
fitted with -
- Holden 202 (Australian engine, 202ci/3.3L, straight 6, 101kW)

- GPS (garmin GPSIII)
- 27mhz & UHF CB's
- Dual band 2m & 75cm two way radio with wide frequency scanning.
- 360 remote million candle power spotlight.
- 240 volt / 800 Watt inverter (now deceased :( )
- other misc. crap - lights/mounted mag-light/8 lighter sockets :confused: /very aggressive tyres etc..
I tried to make a <a href="http://ww1.ft100.com/~45653/guns.ft100.com/banners/bullbar.jpg" target="_blank">bullbar</a>

for it, though it ended up way too heavy.
nbk2000 January 21st, 2003, 04:23 AM

So THAT'S where the harpoon gun went to...going whalin' for 'roo? :D
Axt January 21st, 2003, 06:09 AM

I cant let the American rednecks have all the fun... :cool:
Convincing some twit to mount the gun is the hard part, shes a rough old ride (reminece the scene in terminator 2 and you will
have some idea what a wild ride she is).
kingspaz January 21st, 2003, 06:08 PM

DaRkDwArF, i know what you mean about them being large BUT i feel the fact that they are pure strength compared to
anything else available with a decent top speed outweighs the disadvantages of size. you can pic up an APC for under 10 000
easily these days but they aren't going to be much use in a get away since they are fucking slow although you could drive over
anything in your path :D
DaRkDwArF January 21st, 2003, 11:29 PM

Axt! Buddy!
When are you taking me out roo shooting in that thing!
I've been helping my girlfriend dad convert over his short wheel base '70 landcruisier jeep, we extended the fuel tank under
both seats, fitted a better roll cage, upgraded the drie train the 24" wheels, self adjusting shocks, uprated springs and
converted the steering over to a more modern system
but thats not the best part, we picked up a 308 for free and put some money into it, tis now bored out to a 388 and ripping
shit up!
THe_rEaL_dEaL January 23rd, 2003, 04:07 AM

If I was designing a car for the final getaway I would get a car like a WRX STI. Lightweight, Fast acceleration, great handling,
4x4 for minor off road pursuits.
Shit I would mod to the car would be:

Bullet Proof Glass (at least able to withstand pistol and MP5/similar SMG fire) I think this is the gun that most police swat
teams use for urban ops.
Oil slick dispenser. A slick put down just before a sharp corner would render most police GMC/(substitute the piece of shit that
your local law enforcement use) shit boxes uselss to pusue you.
NBK's Caltrop idea. Same as above
Some sort of heat seaking missile launcher to take down helicopters. (this is getting too bond :( )
You can evade as many cops on the ground as you want but if they get a chopper onto you its almost gameover, if you stay in
the car.
Multiple misiles if the first one misses or they bring a second chopper.
Skirts on the front to deflect spike strips. (A favourite of the pigs)
A car like a hummer in OZ isnt a good idea in my mind if you intend to use the car after the job cause the cops simply start
questioning the small ammount of ppl with them.
Thats why a WRX is good idea cause it owns on unsealed roads and is soo common
If price is a problem then a quick, maneuverable car like a mini or hatchback with suspension mods, widerwheels maby even
solid rubber, turbo for power and the mods above.
I'm not into killing pigs so most of this shit is reserved for madmen like NBK :p (jokes, no harm intended)
On that note put some VERY good seals on your car, put on a gas mask and dispense some CW agent around the car if a
standoff arrises. :D
(eg Dead piggies everywhere. Very Hardcore :D )
BoB- January 24th, 2003, 07:48 AM

The cops know what there doing, and thats why we should take our cues from them. Growing up in VA the most common
squadcar you'd see was an '89-'94 Jeep Cherokee, with well taken care of, and highly tuned engines, These cars are designed
to get through backwoods country as fast as possible.
When I moved to the city you'd still see jeeps, but they were usually only used to transport K-9's, more commonly you'd see
converted Ford Taurus, with reinforced bumpers, and high performance engine rebuilds.
I personally think that you should rely more on evasive, and confusing manuevers rather than the abilities of your vehicle.
Macgyver February 15th, 2003, 02:16 PM

Something with a decent engine, and of course all other nice equipment one might need.
I drive a Chevy Camaro, Supercharged 350" V8, with GPS, radio scanner, laser jammer and some other extras which I've
installed myself.
Axt March 29th, 2003, 02:41 AM

<a href="http://www.jdfab.com/dp2/RCCar_video.wmv" target="_blank">RC car</a>, its over 10mb, has a bit on its
construction.
PyroTech April 2nd, 2003, 01:36 PM

Well, a car like a hummer might be nice on the country side, but when you are dreaming of doing a "hit" in a city, It wouldn't
be too hard to follow a Hummer. I think a regular car would be better.
The idea of another paint layer, with a paint that is easy to get off, would be a better idea, I guess. In combination with the
change of number plate, and the paint layer, pretty nice system.
One of the (many) downsides is, that you'll probably need someone to help you, get the paint of as fast as possible(I
wouldn't want to wait for the cops to arive). And that is a little bit against rule 1 of the RTPB(T N O!).
MoToMaStR April 16th, 2003, 04:22 PM

Well,... I speak from experince... What you'd want for ramming is a 1985 ford LTD crown victoria. P71, better known as a
police interceptor. they are loaded with a totaly bitchen Ford 351 Cleveland motor,.. SOME had T-5 trannys. Even if you had an
automatic,.. Id suggest putting on a TRUE posi-rear, about a 373, and you'd have a top speed of roughly 155 mph and not
ahve a problem getting there.20 gallon tank to accomadate their brutal gas mileage... (8-12 if you beat on it). They have the
complete handling package, and giant brakes/tires.And not to forget CB and scanner's inside. My dad had 2 P71's when i was
younger and had countless accidents with them. With a dry curb weight of about 3700 lbs, theres not much to worry about. the
new cop cars couldnt fish tail you if their life depended on it, and you'd have enough torque to rip tree stumps (as my dad did
with his) BESIDES being nearly unstopable,... you'd look like of of them cruising in it.
I remember in racialy challenged areas of town,.. a good amount of people would give "the nod" or "the wave" when he was
driving it. IF you could find an older one,.. it would cost between 200 and 700 bucks, a great bang for your buck.
=)
Gargoylebrother April 16th, 2003, 05:35 PM

Hmmm well as for me i would research the area and scout out all of the cars in the target area of where i was gona do a hit
then i would get a car that was exactly like the most comon car i see there an example would be if the most comon car was a
dark blue astro van then steal a dark blue astro van and also have a good scanner and plot out at least 5 or more escape
routs with alternate cars waiting also have friends waiting along the routs to drive out in cross trafic infront of the cops to slow
them down all they have to say is they didnt see or hear the cops also have them deplot spike strips in front of cars and if
nessary set up ambushes with heavey firepower to stop cars and if you can get ahold of some seriour firepower a couple of
50cal. MG's mounted in the back of some vans and use them to stop helicopters and defently slow down cops because they
will have several cars all going in diferent directions that there taking fire from and the cars there chasing will be quordinating
there moves with each other to set up blocks for the other cars and to clear the way also another good vehical to have would
be a covered dumptruck this thing could conseal a large 50cal or maybe even a few guys with RPG's in the back wich is covered
wiht a tarp till deployment not only would it be damn near impossible to stop it it could also be used to move large opsticals
such as big trucks in the way.
Anyway thats my suggestion i know it would take a LOT of money and time to get together that much firepwer and would be
dificuly to do it with out the feds noticing but if you could get the funding and the man power it and had a big enough target it
would be one hell of an undertaking that would totally fuck the feds over.
Also if you could get this together setup another hit jsut a few miles away just before the main one then link up the two teams
and move out. Also setup some snipers along your routs with some highpowered rifles with scilencers or jsut good flash and
noise suppressors and have them take out cop cars that are chaseing you if done right the cops wouldnt even know there were
any snipers they would just know there taking fire from somewhere even if they know that.
I can just picture it 6 or 7 heavely armed vehicals weaving themselves threw a downtown major city with several million in loot
on them just completely messing the cops over shooting up cop cars and taking down helicopters left and right.
Energy84 April 16th, 2003, 09:57 PM

And the April 2003 award for longest run-on sentence goes to.... /drumroll
Gargoylebrother!
Congratulations, you are now authorized to utilise ALL of the keys on your keyboard, including, but not limited to, the
spacebar and period key!
Once again, congratulations to Gargoylebrother!
/end sarcasm
Seriously though, you would need to have your own small army to pull that one off!

I'm selling the mighty mini for another favoured car amongst the underworld. I've just inherited a Mitsubishi Cordia GSR
Turbo.
For those who aren't familiar this was Brendan Abbots favoured car. For those of you that don't know Brendan Abbot he was the
post card bandit, often refered to as the modern day Ned Kelly.
The $2.5K form the mini is going into improvements to the cordia.... thinking a T04 turbo, 2.45" straight through and
extractors and a few other little bits under the hood, if I've got anything left over it's going to handling (Adjustable King
Springs and self adjusting shocks) and brakeing (Green Stuff pads, 4 pot calipers and vented discs).
Bitter April 18th, 2003, 03:57 PM

How about this for an idea ? Magnetic grenades.
Grenades with a strong magnet attached so that they're more likely to stick to the target car, rather than just bouncing off.
xyz April 18th, 2003, 08:13 PM

One of the German anti-tank weapons in WW2 was a 10Kg Shaped charge with big magnets (something like 45Kg pull from
the magnets) on it that a very brave soldier had to run up with and stick it to the side of the tank.
A smaller, throwable, non-SC, version of that is probably what you are looking to make.
Mmanwitgun88 April 29th, 2003, 02:48 PM

The ulitmate car (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/business/s_84805.html) Is here, a tricked out chevy
suburban with a mounted M2, completly bullet proof. Can stop a 7.62x51. Mileage sucks, but hey get a dual tank system.
~Dave
McGuyver May 18th, 2003, 12:35 AM

For the magnetic grenade idea: the car that is that is the target will have to be going fairly slow for the grenade to actually
stick. Even with a strong magnet it would probably just slide over the car. If you drove along side the car, then chucked the
grenade it would work, because the grenade would be going the same speed as the car. Unless it's a pick-up, then you can
just chuck it in the bed. If you have a grenade with a large mass, going through the windows is another option.
stickfigure May 30th, 2003, 11:19 AM

I would think the best car would be something not connected to you. Cars are legal nightmares and paper-trails. They are
something not stolen, in good repair, functional and accessable only when needed. I used to live in LA and everynight there
was some sad thrill-seeker trying to run from the police in Media Central and after he runs the car into the ground he tries to
run away on foot. The Boobtube is full of Cop Recruitment TV shows that go something like this,
"You can run, you can drive but, you can't get away from the law." "Because we're the Police and we'll hunt you down until your
cornered like a caged rat to give you a parking ticket and if we can't get you we'll kill your dog and burn your house down,
because we can."
Some major considerations are:

1.) Gas - Soccer Mom Tanks (SUV, Suburbans, Etc.) are slow and guzzle way to much gas to make it very far, also they are big
and followed easily.
2.) Bulletproof? - As seen in San Diego, a war vehicle - M-60A3 MBT is also vulnerable and yes it makes for a good show but,
the point is to get away and live without going to the clink.
3.) Evasion - Will it hide you from the Media Air Force or allow you to at least combat them in some way? Missles, AAA,
something heavy duty, because they are nearly impossible to get away from and fast cars are just a quicker way to die.
4.) Ownership - James Bond cars are cool in the movies but, is it worth investing the money into something that you might
have to ditch before you are able to use any of the gadgets? And once you ditch the car your signature is all over it in
homemade add-ons.
5.) Destination - Have you ever asked yourself "Where are these fools running to?" the Answer - Nowhere they are exactly
that, fools with no plans ahead of time, even the Burbank Robbers didn't plan an escape route, they got guns, armor, Meth
and shot up with lead.
6.) Intention - Is your mission Black Ops or just trying to get out of the rat pack on Doomsday?
Would it be easier to do what you need to do on foot and take mass transit to your car later?
7.) Location - Where is it the mission is going to take place? Urban, Rural? a James Bonds special is not going to be useful in
the Sticks and a Hummer is just going to get you a quick case of caught.
NBK makes the best point.
The car would have to be suitable for the "job" planned.
An earlier post mentioned using friends, that's the last thing you wantto get involved in, if it's a legal situation. Friends can
turn on you and they are just another person knowing your business that shouldn't be. And do you really want to drag your
friends down with you? Most friends will not get involved with a foreknowledge of your intentions unless they are involved as a
partner in your endevour. And remember Ted Kasinski was turned in by his own brother!!!! Trust yourself only. Ever watched
Good Fella's, cut all links to yourself.
Movie car chases are just that...movies, and to really get away takes a lot of knowledge of how not to get caught. Gone in 60
seconds?, please. Most helicopters travel at 160-190 knots and the range on a news helicopters camera lens is around five
miles and would still be able to read your plates. You wouldn't be able to hear them or see them when you got out of the car.
McGuyver May 31st, 2003, 12:03 AM

Umm, the helicopter's speed wasn't the problem in Gone In 60 Seconds. If you recall, the stang was traveling toward an airport
and a plane was either taking off or landing and the helicopter couldn't get clearance to pass through airport air space. Also,
the whole police force knew damn well who they were chasing and what car he was driving.
If a helicopter is on your ass and you've pretty much lost the cops, find a mall. Go in the mall, turn your jacket inside out or
disguise yourself in some other way from the helicopter, then walk out the same place you came in, the cops will cover the
other exits much more thoroughly than the one you came in. Steal another car and get outta there. Getting in and out of the
mall should be done as quickly as possible to avoid the cops sealing the mall and sifting through everyone. Of course this
method of getting rid of the helicopter is only for someone who can steal a car inconspicuously and fast
Arthis May 31st, 2003, 06:57 AM

Hey mister McGuyver, not everyone is able to do that. This looks like James Bond. Be way more realistic. Helicopter chase
down are pretty bad, since helicopter means heliport means big city means many cars in the streets. Your chance is to lose the
cops that are in car, then you lose the helicopter by leaving the car, going into a crowded place. Wondering if you really can
hope fading away like that...
stickfigure May 31st, 2003, 06:48 PM

I thought about the mall escape but most mall are covered with camera's these days and they may be able the pick out your
face or make a reasonable sketch from the footage. Even parking garages these days have a lot of camera's in them. I was
thinking of using a subway at least in the cities that have them or the wilderness at night, or and this is very Bond, have a re-
breather set and deliberatley drive off a dock or into a river. The only question is how for can you swim in the dark for eight
hours?
Back to the camera's I watched a show on one of the learning channels about a system that has been developed that catalogs
everyones face by mapping their bone structure which is hard to completely alter even with surgery and another system that 3
dimensionally maps the capillary vessels in the face which is an individual face print even twin and clones would be differant
it's even more individual than DNA. I imagine that once this technology becomes common place the major powers of the world
will be cataloging huge data basins with everyones profile. What sucks is that even if your face is covered up these camera's
can penetrate that and still read your face print. Hopefully this is still of few years of and the War on Terror zealouts will settle
down and approach things more reasonably.
McGuyver May 31st, 2003, 11:25 PM

I was being realistic. Obviously a person who steals cars should have knowledge of the roads around where he works, how busy
they are and ways around them. In many chases when there is a helicopter involved the police will hang back and wait for
something to happen or set up road blocks or whatever. That's one of the reasons for using a helicopter, to minimize risk of
damaging civilian property, like other cars or even costing an innocent person his life. The police figure with a helicopter on
him where's he going to go? That's why I suggested the mall idea. I mean the idea came from a former cop, it's really not
unrealistic.
Anthony June 1st, 2003, 07:33 AM

Outrunning a helicopter is possible. Someone in a stolen Porsche (IIRC) outran a piggie copter on the motorway over here,
again IIRC doing - 150mph.
A Shelby 500 GT running on nitrous (as in the film) shouldn't have much problem! :)
Arthis June 1st, 2003, 11:14 AM
It starts being an expensive use-and-discard car ! You may use it only on a *BIG* action that will you earn a lot of money.
stickfigure June 1st, 2003, 08:01 PM

What kind of helicopter was is it? Usaully in the States the media uses Allouette III, or Bell Jet Rangers. The police here
usually MD500's or 530's and all these are capable of at least 160 knots. Also over here there aren't just one or two
helicopters there are gangs of them and they all want the best coverage first. Another factor is that the Police have a Good
Ole' Boy complex and love to chase people down for stupid crap. Because the attitude is if you run you're guilty of something
really bad and if not we can find something like attempted murder for rubbing a cops bumber which was probably his fault to
begin with.
The mall escape is probably a person's best bet in a smaller city, most malls in small towns don't have camera's but in bigger
cities I'm sure you'd be spotted real quick. I know someone who ran once and got away but, a stop light helped as it was
green for him but red for the cop and the cop stopped for the light. Once he was about three blocks ahead he turned of his
lights and luckily he was in a residental nieghborhood at night and there was a large hill nearby. He just drove up the hill and
throughout all his alcohol and waited for a few hours. But the next night the same cop recognized his truck and pulled him
over. There was a lot of tap-dancing going on but nothing came of it.:p It's a small town and there aren't any whirley birds or
local news birds there either, Thank God.:rolleyes:
john_smith June 2nd, 2003, 07:43 AM

Well, lately there has been some talk about using lasers as blinding weapons on the net. The chinese using them on US
choppers, tanks using their laser sights against infantry etc. Relatively powerful lasers are still freely available, and police or
news chopper pilots aren't likely to have the appropriate protection equipment. Having it used on them even once could make
a damn good deterrant...
stickfigure June 6th, 2003, 09:50 AM

Not to slam your info but when would the Chinese have the chance or had the chance to use them against US choppers?
Unless I missed a minor or major conflict over here I haven't heard shit and I'm 400 miles off the Chinese Coast. I have a set
of goggles that I've been issued that are laser protectant against Russian targeting lasers. These would be what is mounted
on the Mil Mi-24. They have two lens, midnight green for night and amber for the daytime. Also they are ballistically protectant
for small projectiles and shrapnel.
To my knowledge the Chinese haven't been stupid enough to engage us since the Navy P-3 incident.

Dunno what chopper it was, but the guy outrun it at a significant rate and Porsches aren't *that* fast.
We don't get news choppers following chases either. The news companies rarely use them for anything except traffic reports
and there just aren't enough of them for one to happen to be in the same area that a chase is going on in.
I don't see how cameras in the mall are a problem, the cops don't know what you look like. Even if you drove in, got out in
front of a camera and the security happened to b viewing that camera and noted a description of you, you could be out of
there before the information is passed to the cops.
nbk2000 June 8th, 2003, 02:23 AM

Nobody has mentioned of the simplist, yet most useful, mod. That being the installation of a piss tube.
A piss tube is a length of plastic tubing that is connected to a large funnel at one end, the other end exiting through the floor
to the underside of the vehicle.
This allows a person to take a piss without having to stop somewhere to do so. See, when you're stopped and out of your
vehicle, that's when an enemy would be most likely to try to ambush you.
By being able to take a piss, while still moving, you're removed a risk to yourself. :p
McGuyver June 8th, 2003, 05:02 PM

Hey, while were on the subject, how 'bout a shit tube? You could cut the center of your seat out, but keep the center of the
seat so you have a plug for it. Cut a whole in your floor, then take like a piece of pvc, 2 or 3 inch and seal the floor with caulk
or silicone. Place your cut out seat plug back in, and wa-la, a shit tube. :p LOL, you could even mount a toilet paper holder on
your dash or something.
:p
nbk2000 June 9th, 2003, 03:00 PM

There's always someone who's got something stupid to say...:rolleyes:

Oh come on! Crap is a problem too. Maybe the toilet paper roll is a little excessive, but who wants to crap their pants? It's
much easier to piss on the run than crap. You can always find somthing to piss in even if it has to be the floor, but crap is a
problem. Especically since your sitting and driving.

he does have a point though. crapping yourself would make it alot easier to track you down once you've left the car...
nbk2000 June 9th, 2003, 08:25 PM

I can go days without shitting, but have to piss every couple hours, so that's where my priorities are at. If you feel you must
"poop an' drive", then get a bed pan, put it in a plastic bag, and crap in that. Toss the "bag o' poop" out the window, and pray
it doesn't explode all over the side of your car as it goes out. :D
Arthis June 10th, 2003, 09:34 AM

"The car that makes the man", with some nasty shit on the side...
You should know that hole-seats were used by kings or so in front of people... your 'shit tube' is not really new.
Humm, I don't want to go on again about the "James Bond" aspects of the car, but a few (2 or 3) easy to make gadgets would
be useful; actually if I had to use a car for illegal activities I would put a small 4-head nails device on the back of the car. The
few minutes got may help you not to be caughted.
stickfigure June 10th, 2003, 11:38 AM

I can see the news reports now.
"The man has been driving for hours and what's this? He appears to be throwing a bag out the window" "The cops are pulling
over to pick it up now."
or
"The car is a white ford with what appears to be a brown spatter all over the side."
The shit tube isn't a bad idea. I know pilots who have shit themselves after a full day of flying. There isn't any shit bag in the
Combat Advantage G-suit, there is a piss bag but that's for men only. An onboard shitter would help a lot, although the
smell...
As far as camera's in a mall it might help you at the time to get away but if the police have a picture of you face, they might
try to pick you up later. A lot of people get picked up in America that way, usaually it's stupid criminals but, a lot of times
people recognize them later and turn them in. That's why they put cameras in convience stores they are usually knocked of by
someone who lives in the neighborhood. What if you accidentally touched something in the storeor mall, and they caught it on
camera? Picked up your prints and matched your picture to them. It might be a stretch but it happens all the time. Or picked
up the coat you stuffed in a garbage can or door frame you touched. Most of us have had our prints taken when we were in
grade school and that went into a national data base that the FBI uses. Also if you were or are in the military they have your
prints, your DNA, and your dental records on file for the next 60 years. And in some cases a retinal scan for security
clearances. I don't know if things are like this for you Brits, Aussies and Canucks but with the way your Governments operate
(no offense) I can't imagine them to be much differant.

Who here honestly last at least a few hours when needing a shit?
It's not that hard to go a whole day between thinking "I could do with a dump" and actually going.
Plus if you were going out to pull a job, you'd go before you left, just in case. Plus in case you needed to run, like you wouldn't
go out on a full stomach.
NBK is right, pissing is different, you can go to from feeling fine to finding it difficult to walk in a very short amount of time in
some cases. Not only physcially incapacitating but very distracting too!
No one takes blood/DNA/finger print from school kids in this country!
Ezekiel Kane June 14th, 2003, 10:31 PM

95% of the time, you could hold off at least a day before actually having to relieve yourself, but what if you ate something
spicy a few hours ago and it isn't going down so well? Diarrhea definitely doesn't hold off for a day, but then again from the
other side wouldn't work too well with a shit pipe anyway. If you had a shit pipe, the odor would probably pervade your entire
car quickly - no rearview-hanging pine tree freshener can help that. Of course, comfort is probably not an utmost priority,
especially if you're considering how comfortable you'll feel if you have to go to prison because you stopped for a few minutes
to relieve yourself. For myself, if I was serious about a job, I would go with only the piss pipe and simply NOT EAT several
hours beforehand.
I was never printed in grade school... But when you're born, and when you get your driver's license, they make you sacrifice
that part of your anonymity to make the piggies' job easier if you ever try running from the long, lesioned arm of the law.
nbk2000 June 15th, 2003, 02:33 AM

Babies don't have fingerprints, that's why they take foot prints, as I've never heard of someone being "foot printed" as an
adult.
As for the DNA...I'm sure there's some sort of bullshit going on where every newborns blood is being collected for "medical"
reasons, but actually going to some government DNA lab to be included in a database of some sort. I saw it mentioned ONCE
in a small article in a newspaper, never to be repeated, for obvious reasons.
You know, it's funny how often you'll hear about something ONE time, and never hear about it again till decades later when it
becomes some huge scandel. The government is pretty good about squashing things that are really important to them, but
the truth always comes out in the end. Though it may not come out in time to do the people affected by it any good. :(
As for the thumbprint at the DMV, that's easily defeated with the "gummy" thumb. :)
Any sensible crim isn't going to eat a big meal of beans, jalapeno cheddar cheese, with a quart of milk, prior to a job. Sensible
crims would take the precaution of taking an anti-diarrhea medication like loperamide to prevent any leaky bowel action
caused by nervousness, prior to doing something. Also, they don't drink anything for at least an hour prior, so any stress
induced nausea produces nothing more than a dry heave, rather than messy DNA laden vomit. Same for taking a piss
immediately prior.
Also, I don't see many times when a crim would be driving around for so many hours that he couldn't take a shit somewhere
safe. He'd either arrive at his destination (presumably somewhere safe) or be able to lose any tailing piggies (if he's got a
half a brain).
Anyone so fucked up that they spew on the job, or are so careless that piggies get on their six without their knowing,
DESERVES to be caught. It keeps piggies occupied while the real professionals go about their business. :)
Ezekiel Kane June 15th, 2003, 02:26 PM

I've never heard of the "gummy" thumb technique.. What exactly does it involve? Is it truly foolproof? What about the other
fingers? Surely the government has some method of getting around attempts to hide one's true prints, and has prepared for
such a situation.
john_smith June 16th, 2003, 07:06 AM

Gummy fingerprints: http://www.itu.int/itudoc/itu-t/workshop/security/present/s5p4.pdf
As for piss disposal, just get some of those small semi-transparent trashbags. Some time ago I had to stop in a place without
any toilets or drains for a couple of days and I really didn't want anybody around to notice it, so I bought roll (30? 40?) and
went about halfway trough it. Never had one leaking or anything.
nbk2000 June 16th, 2003, 11:42 AM

That's why I am who I am, and you are who you are. :p
Actually, it's "gummi" fingerprints. Do a google search for it. It's easiest for the thumb, though it can be used for all fingers,
and is quite reliable if done well.
(We try to encourage newbies here to develop their search skills, rather than hand them the answers outright, so avoid that in
the future please.)
I doubt the government has countermeasures in place at the DMV on the 1 in a billion chance of someone using a fake
fingerprint. I wouldn't try using it for getting a military security clearance, but for check cashing and DMV, it's perfectly safe.
Kid Orgo June 24th, 2003, 01:47 AM

Any modifications to a car detectable when that car is found are counter productive. Washable color? Decals? Good. Rotating
plates? Bad. Those modifications finger you to the pigs. What you'd want, on a stealthy job, is to change the appearance of
your car easily, without leaving any trace of the modifications. The Jackal method might work, along with some plate-changing
tomfoolery.
Nico July 10th, 2003, 03:16 AM

Here's some discussion on disguising a license plate:
http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/license_20plate_20disguiser
Here's a link on that reflective spray:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030703-120901-3612r.htm
3M makes 'privacy glass' for houses that use electric current to control opacity/transparency. Perhaps it could be used in a
vehicle?
http://www.edscenter.utexas.edu/tech/glass.html
---
Anyway, but what I was thinking about was some sort of mud-making machine. You could spray on a 'mud mist' all over your
car, and it would look like you just got back from four-wheeling or something. We've all seen those trucks with the dried layer
of dirt, right?
A buddy and I once tried to rub mud on a license plate, but it kept sloughing off.
Maybe something like those fertilizer attachements for garden hoses, that spray the mixture along with the water?
It would be cool to just have a 'brown' car ... the paint job would be obscured, the license plate, even the make/model to the
uninformed ... you could just run it through a car wash (industrial areas often have free drive-through sprinkler units, so
workers can get rid of salt/silt build-up as they're parked all day), or just have a hose plugged in somewhere ready to go.
nbk2000 July 20th, 2003, 11:07 AM

I was in the auto parts store earlier tonight when I saw a remote controlled lighting system for your car that had the remote
built into the gear shift knob.
There was four buttons underneath a flip up cap built in the knob.
I was thinking how pimp it would be to have those four buttons controlling things like caltrop dispensers and other Bond type
shit. Flip up the cover on the knob, hit a button, and stuff goes flying! :D
No idea on price, since they were still in the process of stocking it, and didn't have it priced, but it couldn't be much more than
$50, if even that.

Well it seems like this post has died down, but there are many new member and recent advancements in technology that
might bring to light some new and interesting ideas into building the "Ultimate Get-A-Way Vehicle"
Lets hear what your ideas & plans for the ultimate get-a-way-vehicle would be and why. What type of vehicle would you start
with for a base, and what kind of modification would you do to that vehicle to make it the "Ultimate Get-A-Way Vehicle".
My idea/plan for the "Ultimate Get-A-Way Vehicle" would be all purpose able to go anywhere you pointed it, gobs of power
under the hoods with lot of torque at the rear wheels and front wheels, Solid axles, in a 4 wheel drive vehicle a low range
transfer case with a high range gear box as well, large reserve of fuel for going the extra miles, Out fitted with useful gear and
tools to make your escape easier, be able to do just about any thing needed to evade the law enforcement. There must be
some kid of body armor for use in ramming, and to help save key components of the vehicle when it is being abused, must
be able to carry 2 people with the option of carrying 4, and must be able to carry most supplies you will need for the job and
for your survival while on the run.
Now looking at my list of demands for my idea and plan for the "Ultimate Get-A-Way Vehicle" I see I have already built 2
versions that I use as daily drivers weekend warriors out on the trails. There are a few more modifications I would do to help
improve it's escape abilities which I'll list below.
Base-1998 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4.0L
http://i1.tinypic.com/1zxp1me.jpg
-4.0L Stroker kit pumping out 350HP and 360 foot pounds of torque
-8 1/2" of lift to make room for the 38" rubbers, and to help give more ground clearance Fab-Tech 3 link long are kit. Total of
10" of lift with rubber.
*Note the 38" Kevlar run-flats on 34 bolt bead locks (Good for running single digit tire pressure while off road) or incase
someone shoots out your tires. With the way cut out fenders. Bolder/car eating capabilities
Other Modifications include:
-Custom Built Front bull bumper with winch & Rear bumper with tire carrier (fabricated and welded by myself)
-Complete set of Skid plates to protect the underbody and mechanical workings of the jeep
-Custom made roof-rack (For carrying extra supplies) & custom made doors (Made by myself)
-Kilby on-board air (Equipped to run air tools, and air up the tires)
-On-board Welder (Homemade version made by me with the use of a extra alternator, booster cables and welding rods)
-On-Board Lap-Top GPS with good map software
-Totally water proof with hi-rise Snorkel (good for deep water crossings)
-Atlas II Transfer case stacked with a NP 205 for the added Hi-Range gears
-Dana 44 front with a Chrysler 8 1/2" Rear end stuffed with 4.44 gears
-Completer competition interior roll bar
-3 Septer fuel cells (Installed under the rear seats of the jeep)
10" bear disc breaks all round
-B&M Mega shifter kit for transmission to help keep shifting of the 350HP engine smooth
-Plenty of lights pointing all around the jeep including rock lights located under the jeep to help spot potential hazards.
-5 point racing seat with harnesses (for the two front seats)
-Race approved front windows (Made of durable 4" thick lexan glass)
Many more modifications done to the Jeep.
This is my 1st jeep to date, other thing I would outfit this jeep with would be:
-Central air system (Like the one equipped on the Military hummers.
-Some defensive counter measures such as, Tire Spikes, Smoke, and a flame thrower kit (Plumbed through your fuel system)
and oil slick kit.
-Better Map software so your route could be changed via the push of a button, maybe a CCTV system hooked up to the lap-
top to better monitor your pursuers while keeping your eyes on the road
-Rear mounted winch
Base-1998 Jeep TJ
http://i1.tinypic.com/1zxqgiw.jpg
-2.5L with a Turbo charger (Taken from a K-Car, parts fabricated and installed by myself)
-250HP and 300 foot pounds of torque
-9 1/2" of lift Via 6 1/2" Fab-Tec long arm kit and 3" Body lift with a total of 13" of lift with rubber
-*Note the 38" Kevlar run-flats on 24 bolt bead lockers
-On-Board air (Built by myself with the use of a York air conditioner from a big rig)
-On-Board welder (Built by myself with the use of an alternator, booster cables and welding rods)
-On-Board Lap-Top GPS
Custom Fabricated front winch bumper with radiator guard & Rear bumper with tire carrier (Fabricated and welded by myself)
Complete set of under body amour to protect vitals (Radiator, engine pan, differentials, transmission, and driveline
components) & Steering stabilizer.
-Full Roll cage
-2 Septer fuel cells (Installed in the rear cargo area of the jeep under a false floor)
-Atlas II transfer case Dana 44 front & Ford 9" rear end shortened 2"
Custom snorkel raised into the interior compartment to suck air via the glove box
-Lexan Race windshield
-Custom communication Sound bar
-10" bear racing disc breaks all round
-B&M Short through shifter with a center force duel friction racing clutch
Many more minor modifications done to the Jeep
Other modifications I'd do to make this the "Ultimate Get-A-Way Vehicle" would be:
Pretty much the same as the last jeep
-Central air system (Like the one equipped on the Military hummers.
-Some defensive counter measures such as, Tire Spikes, Smoke, and a flame thrower kit (Plumbed through your fuel system)
and oil slick kit.
-Better Map software so your route could be changed via the push of a button, maybe a CCTV system hooked up to the lap-
top to better monitor your pursuers while keeping your eyes on the road
-4.0L Stroker for the extra horse power and torque
-Hi-rise Snorkel to the roof to cross even deeper water
-2 1/2 ton rock well axles and 44" Kevlar run-flats
-Rear mounted winch
-NP205 transfer case stack for higher range gearing as well
This is my idea of the "Ultimate Get-A-Way Veh icle"! It can g o anywhere an d do almost anything. If I can t go through it,
around it or crawl over it, I wouldn't hesitate to drag myself over it Via the winch. The two Jeeps have gobs of horse power &
torque which easily turn the 38" Kevlar run-flat meats, the Atlas II provides a insane low range that can make the jeep literally
crawl over anything in it's path.
There is so much body amour on the jeeps, I can ram a car out of my way with out doing any damage to the radiator or other
steering components (I have tested the strength of my bumpers on many rocks and trees while out wheeling) I can high
center the jeeps with no worries of damaging engine, tranny, transfer case and driveline components. The jeeps have the fuel
contained is special racing cells so no worries of damaging the fuel tank on rocks or being shot out. The Jeeps can travel at
highway speeds and reach 150KM with no bad handling, and can go through fields at speeds of up to 100Kms and still handle
like it was on road. On harder off road conditions I can crawl through just about anything mother nature can through at me.
Handles great in summer & winter with icy roads.
If I were to choose one of the Jeeps as a get-a-way vehicle I'd go with the 1998 Cherokee sport since it has way more HP and
torque, more room, and handles much nicer at highway spends than the shorter wheel base TJ, but what you get with one you
give up with the other. The shorter wheel base is much better for maneuverability off road and can squeeze through just about
anywhere compared to the full size jeep.
rsx914 July 15th, 2006, 01:37 PM

I would have to say, Dank$aVegas, that I agreed with your choice of a 4 door 1998 Jeep Cherokee 4.0L as an escape vehicle
in 1998. It worked very well. I did not equip it with the plethora of aftermarket tools as you have yours for the simple reason
that it was not mine. It was stone stock and I torched it with 10 gallons of gasoline residing in two plastic five gallon containers
behind the back seat when I was done with it.
That particular vehicle blended in nicely with the area it was used in. I chose a white one after observing white was a common
color for them. The automatic transmission was superior to the manual in that it allowed me to concentrate on the task at
hand easier than a manual, although in day to day life I prefer a manual in most vehicles.
Plates were stolen and disposed of in a dumpster far from where the Jeep was torched. Speaking of that; I had to give the
disposal of the vehicle quite a bit of thought. Since I was alone I had to think of a way to get the Jeep to a location far from
my home and place of employment, burn it, and then get back. I'm in good shape, but I didn't want to arouse suspicion
either by walking or running along the highway. So I threw my mountain bike in the back and rode home on hiking trails.
Why, you may ask, did I not just burn it anywhere convenient? Well, car fires draw a lot of attention. The smoke can be seen
for miles. And I figured a bit of rain and rust after the fact couldn't hurt. I returned (stupid, I know) a couple weeks later and
was pleased with the outcome. A couple months after that I saw that the hulk was gone. I assume it is evidence, but nothing
on it or in it at this point can lead to me.
I would beg to differ with you as far as "tricking out" an escape vehicle goes. Your Jeep may indeed be more capable than
most if not all other Jeeps, but can you afford the loss of your investment? Can you be traced to it in the event of Police
recovery? I made no modifications other than a change of plates. All of my tools, including a Police scanner, were handheld
and in a duffle.
Also, I did not "speed away" at the critical moment. At one time I even came to a four way intersection at the same time as a
patrol officer. I did see him flip a "u"ey in my rear view mirror about three blocks after passing him, but I evaded the
possibility of a confrontation with a few direction changes, double backs, and my favorite method of eluding an officer, hiding
in plain sight. Using a plain vanilla vehicle, maintaining a normal appearance (ie: no Bo Bice hair) and acting like all is normal
and it's a nice day to be driving around works great.

and I torched it with 10 gallons of gasoline
Not very wise on your part to be openly bragging about committing a crime. :rolleyes:
I did not equip it with the plethora of aftermarket tools as you have
The man is only as good as his tools he uses, and a poor choice of a tool will be his demise.
but can you afford the loss of your investment?

Sure why not, that's what I build them for, to thrash and beat to the ground! Last summer I totaled a 98" TJ that took a back
flip down a very steep hill, gas tank ruptured and the leak touched the catalytic converter and burst into flames (Me and the
spotter made it out of the whole ordeal fine). Not too much was left of the jeep after that, being out in the middle of no where
the little dinky fire extinguisher I carry did didily squat to help save the Jeep. I managed to salvage axles, tranny, t-case and
a few other drive train components to put on another 98' TJ build up (current jeep). That is why I now use Racing fuel cells &
scrap the factory steel gas tanks. ;)
Can you be traced to it in the event of Police recovery?

The jeeps in the picture I sure could, but if I was planning on doing something that would require a get-a-way-vehicle I would
not use something that could be traced back to me, I would be sure to acquire another jeep that couldn't be traced to me
(Private sale through the bargain finder/auto trader) & trick it out with a few simple mods in the garage. Find another similar
jeep (Same color, year etc) grab the tags and use them.
This is assuming I would need something to insure my get-a-way/freedom, to me the price of freedom is well worth the $$
spent on making a reliable, worthy tool like this. A jeep built like this will give you extra piece of mind when running from your
pursuer. All key components of the vehicle are protected in one way or another (i.e. You don't have to worry about smashing
up your radiator or drive train components & having your tires shot or blown out. The lugs on my rubber of choice are 2 1/2"
and are very hard; puncture resistant). Where as a normal jeep you don't have the luxury of having a decent bull bar, with
adequate radiator support, your tires are usually street rubber which leave much to be desired from.
I was just using my own personal Jeeps as a display tool, to help give the readers a better concept of my idea/design.

I've got to say that a car really isn't ideal for escape and evasion in the UK. The cops see it every day, and catch 95% of them
without trouble using the helicopter if it even comes to that.
The porsche that is mentioned above out-enduranced the force helicopter, after it out-ran the cop cars. Turned out the
German driver didn't even realise he was being persued until he got stopped, and he only beat the helicopter due to it being
towards the end of a flight and only having an hour of fuel left. The big turbine engined police helicopter here is capable of
plenty more than the cars are on the roads we have. And they have a spotter plane. See http://www.freefoto.com/browse.jsp?
id=28-07-0 for photos of both.
In an urban place like the UK, there will be 5 cop cars/riot vans on you in a very short time. Plate recognition gear will,
combined with CCTV networks that cover a huge area, track you easily. One gang stole a car and were picked up by police less
than ten minutes after they got it back to where they had left it ready for use the following day for an armed robbery. The
camera operatoir spotted it being stolen, then they tracked it all the way, even following the men from the car to the door of
the house they were at.
I'd have to say that a motorbike has got to be the way forward in the UK. A small one, so you can use alleyways and ginnels
and footpaths. You want something the size of a child's off-roader to get under the anti-bike fences, and that you can throw
around a bit, with "urban" tyres - the ones that are ok on the road, but ok off the road too. Learn to handle it well. You can
then go where the police aren't able to without trouble. Cut across a park, or whatever, and the fast pursuit cars can't follow, go
down an alley and only foot or bike police can follow, go down a path with an anti-bike device and the cops on motorbikes
can't follow, and you can outrun the ones on bicycles.
Then the helicopter is the only thing you will have to worry about. As well as being rammed...
Once you are a bit ahead, you can ditch the bike, jamming the throttle on, change your top, and walk away. Then you become
yet another hoodie wearing thug-wannabe who can't be ID'd.
Only in a JEEP!I'm fairly sure that a motocross bike would be able to stroll that terrain in your pictures, Dank$ta.
Dank$taVegas July 21st, 2006, 05:26 PM

I've got to say that a car really isn't ideal for escape and evasion in the UK. The cops see it every day, and catch 95% of them
without trouble using the helicopter if it even comes to that.
Well I guess the best escape vehicle all depends on where you will be escaping from and what you will be escaping from.
My idea of the Jeep, applies to where I live, since I see more fields, Un-paved gravel roads, chewed up logging roads, bog
pits, swamps and muskeg swamp than I see paved roads. So if being chased by the RCMP's just lock her in the desired
setting of 4wd for the driving conditions and lose that piggy! Closest police chopper Hawk 1 would take far to long to get
involved in the chase, so the ditching of the get-a-way vehicle in some remote wilderness and escaping on foot is doable. The
RCMP's do have some 4x4's mostly big suburbans, with little or no lift, that will not be able to handle like a highly modified off
road rig, and their tires are not worthy of the conditions of the area.
In an urban place like the UK, there will be 5 cop cars/riot vans on you in a very short time.
So if they are involved in a high speed chase through a urban area where the driver of the car is running red lights & stop
signs, are they still allowed to pursue?
Here in Canada (Alberta/BC) they have certain rules to follow, if a driver of a car they are chasing, is trying to evade them and
is driving reckless, running red lights, running stop signs & going down one ways (He is being a current danger to the public
due to the chase). They have to break off the ground chase and call in for air support. Even if that means that the person gets
away.
This all came about, sometime back in 2002, when the police (where I use to live) were involved in a high speed chase of a
stolen car. The chase exceeded speeds of 140KM in residential areas (Schools, Play ground zones) when school was getting
out, running red lights and stop signs. The chase finally ended when the fleeing car ran a red light a t-boned a car, killing the
whole family. After that incident the methods use by the police were rethought since they ended up catching the brunt of the
shit, since the family died & the two teen car thefts died in the chase.
I'd have to say that a motorbike has got to be the way forward in the UK
That would also be a nice means of escape! Sounds like a mini bike would do the trick in the UK, here, I'd have to say a nice
Street bike possibly a CBR, they handle very nice, have gobs of power and can reach speeds in a matter of seconds! I don't
think too many chopper would be able to keep up with a nice street bike going all out!
But then again, you don't have too much protection, sitting on a rocket like that!
I'm fairly sure that a motocross bike would be able to stroll that terrain in your pictures, Dank$ta.
I'm sure it could, hell I could even take a stock jeep or other 4x4 through that picture. That was just some pic of me trying
and testing out the new hacked out fenders to give more clearance for the rubber. I mean major cut out fenders I took 4
inch's off the front and 3 1/2 off the rear with a sawzall :D Where the jeep really shines is on the rocks, swamps (Bog pits &
Muskeg swamps), deep snow and mud. These places you don't see Bikes, Quads or too many 4x4s. When you start going
through swamps where the water is coming in the interior and the mud is as thick as molasses or going across bog pits where
the 38" rubber is run at 2PSI to help spread the foot print of you rubber to help you float across the bottomless pit of mud you
won't be taking a bike through there, Oh and going through 4-6 feet of snow wouldn't be too much fun on a bike.
So you are kind of right the bike can go most places but still not everywhere, Hence Only in a JEEP;)
nbk2000 July 22nd, 2006, 05:09 AM

Ever seen a snowmobile hydroplane across a glacier lake at 100MPH?
How about a bogmobile climb up a 75° incline of loose dirt, to shoot up over the lip onto flat ground 100' feet above
where it started?
Neither of these are common, but no cop would be able to follow you either, unless he's flying. ;)
What's really needed is someway of dealing with the piggy (and news) helicopters, since they're the worst threat.
Dank$taVegas July 22nd, 2006, 08:20 PM

Ever seen a snowmobile hydroplane across a glacier lake at 100MPH?
Every May long weekend, the beginning of the mountain melt off when the bog pits and muskeg swamps are at their prime, a
group called the "Boggin Freaks" comes equipped with their mini-monster trucks & snowmobiles that they trailer in to the off
road park to entertain the crowds at Johnson Bog in Alberta and the Postal Pit in B.C. By having head to head races back and
forth across the bottom less pit of mud and water! The people on the snowmobiles stay very clean I have to add, they shoot
from one side to the other which is about 1km wide.
Some awesom videos here:
http://www.whiteknight.ca/2002VIDEOCLIPS.htm
How about a bogmobile climb up a 75 incline of loose dirt, to shoot up over the lip onto flat ground 100' feet above where it
started?
Ahh, we get a lot of crazy equipped hill climbing, dune hopping rigs out here! The gravel pit is a fun place to watch these rigs
assault hill climbs.
I tried assault a hill with 75 incline or better. I think it was much better the 75 thought. Locked the jeep's front and rear
lockers shifted the Atlas II in low, and assaulted the hill. Instead of shooting up over the lip on to flat ground, the jeep
decided to do a back flip down the hill (Hell I didn't even make it half way to the lip of the hill). The hill is used by hill climbing
dirt bikes, with extended frames and gob of power with paddle rear tires to chew their way up. That's what peer pressure, a
heavy right foot and all throttle will do :o . The jeep ruptured its gas tank on it's way down and burst into flames. My welding
job on the custom roll bar held up very well for the beating that it took on the way down!
What's really needed is someway of dealing with the piggy (and news) helicopters, since they're the worst threat.
Now helicopters I don't have too much knowledge about, but I'm assuming that Police choppers aren't as heavily armored as
military ones would be, since the idea of a police chopper is not for battle but as a eye in the sky.
So maybe the use of a high powered gun and a few well placed shots would do the trick. From just thinking a bit, the rudder on
a helicopter would be a weak link, a few well placed shots into the rudder blades could do some serious damage. I guess this
all depend on the altitude the chopper is flying at.
Another weak link that comes to mind would be the fuel tank/supply, although I'm un a where of where this would be located
on a chopper.
Depending if the chopper has bullet resistant glass, one could try shooting at the cockpit area.
A nice high power rife and scope could prove it's worth in gold!
But besides this, the only other ideas that come to mind would be some type of home made rocket launcher one would bring
with him, if he expects to encounter a chopper.
john_smith July 23rd, 2006, 11:32 AM

Well placed = almost impossible if the copter is flying at any reasonable speed, the military always emphasizes volume of fire
over accuracy as far as small arms vs aircraft goes. A quad rig of syncronized, electronically triggered 308's in a pickup bed
perhaps:D A bit over the top of course, but would you imagine if someone actually pulled it off?:eek:
As for the rocket launcher, an unguided rocket won't hit a moving helo unless you get really really lucky (think Black Hawk
Down), but it would scare the living shit out of the typical police pilots and quite likely make them break off pursuit.
Btw getaway vehicles, the large multi-cylinder enduros (Triumph Tiger etc) are often said to be the best bikes for running from
cops, being that they accelerate almost as fast as sportbikes on open road, yet can hop curbs and go up/down stairs and
through typical urban parks and woodlots as well.
Jacks Complete July 23rd, 2006, 02:03 PM

They wouldn't break off pursuit, they would simply climb and/or retreat, keeping you under high power lens video surveil until
they could get ground units on you.
Hitting a chopper with a gun is not easy. You would need to laser range it to get a distance before you even started guessing
how far away it was, and hitting a specific place on the chopper is not going to be possible, unless you've a .50 or something,
with a static firing platform and optics. Even then, you would be guessing for wind and target relative movement, as well as the
angles being up in the sky, unlike at the range... It's hard enough hitting a clay from 30 yards with a shotgun!
You would need to either go after the chopper on the ground, and stop it that way (not easy, as the sites are generally non-
military but well secured places, and even bog basic airfields in the UK now have a guard and a security fence to stop hijackers
from stealing grass from the empty field!) but that tips off the cops that something is happening unless you are subtle (one
gang tried and failed, as the helo that was grounded was simply replaced by the next forces' as they guessed something big
was going to happen), or the other idea is to buy/steal/make a guided missile - and that's probably not going to happen.
Any other ideas, I'm all ears.
Cancer July 23rd, 2006, 02:26 PM

I had a 1991 (or '90) Chevy Lumina Euro Sport 3.1. It sounds fancy, but was basically just a piece of shit car I picked up used
for about $3000. For being what it was, the car could take an unbelievable amount of damage. I drove it for four years with no
maintenance (aside from oil changes) and had no problems out of it. Several times I accidentally ended up off-roading with it
and found it still reliable and sound.
What I thought was impressive was when I entered it into a tough truck contest and was able to drive it home that night. The
only damage it took was off a five foot jump when it nose dived and bent the radiator. It would overheat from time to time
after that, but was otherwise fine.
Dank$taVegas July 23rd, 2006, 05:11 PM

It's hard enough hitting a clay from 30 yards with a shotgun!
Very true! I should have thought a little harder before posting that. Not a very logical idea. But depending on how low the
chopper is flying one could use small arms fire to make the chopper back off. But all this would really accomplish is to make
the chopper climb altitude to get out of range of you fire.
The only other idea a more logical one might be to out last the chopper. Bikes get pretty good MPG/KML, Depending on how
long a chopper can stay airborne (I'm not sure) you could try to out last him. They would more then likely try to coordinate the
ground crews to pick up the chase when they need to brake off due to fuel reasons. But I'm guess's where other people live
the police have more than one chopper (here where I live the closest city only has one), even if you were able to out last the
police chopper, there maybe a news chopper involved in the chase filming the whole thing.
But again, choppers do not fly all day, they usually have a patrol that they are set out to follow, mostly at night and early
mornings. Unless they receive a call for air support (as they are on call 24/7). So it will take a few minutes to ready the
chopper and crew, launch the chopper and head to the area. This will allow the escapee precious minutes to elude the ground
crews and make good his escape before the chopper can get involved. One would need to figure out exact patrol times, when
the chopper is usually launched and when it usually returns.
This information could be gathered over a 1-2 week span by scouting the launch area and logging in a book the times it
leaves, how long it is up in the air for before returning to be refueled. That time (when it returns) would be the best time to
strike, since the chopper would be low on fuel and has to land and fill up before being able to get airborne. Giving the escapee
extra time to lose the ground crews.
or the other idea is to buy/steal/make a guided missile - and that's probably not going to happen.
That's not a very doable idea for the average person.
You would need to either go after the chopper on the ground,

The police chopper where I live is launched from the local air-port in a special section of the tarmac. Getting access to this
would be very difficult, and would certainly take a well equipped team to gain access to the site using firepower.
Anyone else have any ideas or thoughts on getting rid or losing a chopper?
defiant July 24th, 2006, 01:45 AM

The trick to shooting down a helicopter is practice.
Take Vietnam. Initially the Viet Cong were terrified of helicopters and allowed the copters to heard them into open fields for
the slaughter. After a number of such engagements, military advisors came along who tought them how to entrench
themselves, stand firm, and lead a target when it was within range. A turning points in the "police action" was the Vietnamese
learning how to shoot down copters, and engagement (the name of which I can't remember at the moment) where the Viet
Cong shot down three out of five helos.
At the time the Vietcong were not armed by the North or by the Chinese, but were using ancient single shot Brownings
appropriated from the French. A .50 caliber is more practicable, albeit less sportsmanlike, and a full auto .50 is recomended if
you've got someone to lug the ammo around for you. A lesser caliber will do, but its essential to know what the weapon is
capable of in terms of range and penetration.
The same is true of the RPG. Training and experience makes the master. Unfortunately there isn't an RPG (in the modern
sense of the term or that I'm aware of) that's fully automatic.
bipolar July 24th, 2006, 03:32 AM

I think the key to having a successful evasion is having some kind of plan.
Know in advance a few points where you will try to go in your Area of Operations.
Identify all ovehead cover like bridges, trees, etc. The faster you end the chase, the better chance you have at survival.
Depending on your situation eluding, and evading is a better course than trying to destroy everything and use force.
Have pre-positioned caches of supplies in all possible areas of escape. Containing cheap or disposable weapons, small
ammount of food or water, other supplies.
Countermeasures such as visual obscurants(smoke grenades, fog generator)

For fog generator I have seen a patent for a vehicle fog generator. It uses a fuel pump to pump mineral oil based fog
solution into the exhaust manifold(at the front of the vehicle where it reaches higher temps) using a spray nozzle.
I have read in military literature that you can add graphite powder to the mineral oil to also make it a Thermal IR obscurant
also. Add oil based dyes for colors.
For night time driving mount a 12v super bright spotlight in the rear window of your car facing back. Activated by a button on
the dash. Activated right before a sharp turn at night to lose following cars.
Also some spotlights on the front of your car for high speed night driving seeing far enough ahead of you.
Another idea is flash bangs covertly mounted on your bumper, electronicly activated.
Supposing you are not wanted, but get pulled over by an Authority. If only eluding and evading, without commiting any other
crimes, you may be able to get away and dispose of your vehicle and never think about it again. There won't be a giant
manhunt for you because you didn't kill anyone or commit any other crimes. This assuming you don't have plates linked to
your current address.
If it's an all or nothing scenario, what about the idea of putting mini EFP or platter charges(2"-3" in diameter) Surrounded in
pummice and/or perlite blast absorbing material.
This to avoid damage to you and your car(at least enough to keep the car running) and avoid detonating other charges. Some
how mount this in the rear of the vehicle. Hidden almost manufactured into the car in the bumper or trunk. Could be hidden in
a speaker system or something in the trunk. Before firing, pop the trunk and have bungee cords or rope to keep the trunk
from opening all the way.
It is true about taking down a helicopter. It is very possible with small arms and practice. I've read it's good to use tracers,
especially APIT tracers. This lets you with a few shots see how far ahead see where your shots are going in comparison with
where the helicopter is so you can make adjustments each shot. You will have to aim ahead of where it is going.
Another thing to think about is a helment with polycarbonate face sheild or goggles.
You should learn to do maneuvers in your vehicle such as J-Turns or S-Turns. I don't think its possible or a good idea in trucks
or SUV's. You may have to put a piece of rubber hose in the Emergency Brake release(for foot peddle type) or tape around
the e-brake release(hand type) so it doesn't catch every time you use it for special maneuvers.
Overall you need to plan to end it fast. These chases that go on and on... never succeed. They end up with tons of
helicopters, cops, and broadcast on live TV.

Dank$ta, thanks for re-stating my post...
As far as shooting one down, the reason a squad of Viet Cong could do it is tatics and numbers. They all waited and then fired
according to a simple counting formula. Because there were 30 of them at least, odds were for them hitting something, even
with single shots (and you need a pretty high RoF to get enough lead somewhere to do anything. It's not going to happen,
unless you are running for your life, since the cops are then going to snipe you or ram you first chance they get, as you as now
lethally armed and dangerous, rather than a drunk driver. Factor in also that you are trying to drive whilst doing this!
If you had covered over storm drains, you might be able to use those. Interconnected tunnels that are quite long might also
work, but the ends need to be far apart, and more than three, or they will be closed off fast, especially if something serious
has gone down.
Whilst driving the lanes in the UK, the police cars all have numbers on the roof, for ID from the air. I've heard/seen them
chasing a car down, and the chase car always keeps up easily due to the air support telling them the state of the road beyond,
which ensures they need not worry about oncoming tractors, etc. They then close off the road ahead, and that's that.
I did see a cop show one time where the Range Rover that was used for ram raiding turned right into a field. The cop cars
couldn't follow (as this was a few years ago and none were 4x4, which many are now) but they simply fenced the road each
side of the car as it crashed through ditches, fences, etc. trying to get away. The air support simply told them which way to go,
and they were caught eventually. You can see them in the video getting desperate, as they come through a hedge, and turn
onto the road, then see the road block in front, then turn onto the next field, and so on.
I've also seen chases where vans full of stolen goods have been emptied at the poice cars, but they simply drop back and
dodge them, and keep up the pursuit. This is generally on a wide road, of course., where they are trying to outrun pursuit cars.
What I have never seen is someone doing both together. Block the (narrow lane) road with the stolen TV, then go around a
corner and fuck off over a field. It wouldn't lose the air support unless you found a big thick wood to hide in (and the ground
units would find you after a while, with dogs if need be) and it would be a one shot, but if push came to shove, it might be
worth a try.
Oh, and if you want some basic car mod's, take a look at Paladin's Rolling Thunder (on the FTP) for ideas. Only use them as
a basic, though, as most are prone to failure.

What I thought was impressive was when I entered it into a tough truck contest and was able to drive it home that night.
Must not have been too tough of a tough truck contest. I have entered many jeeps in theses contest's and the majority of
these contests have obstacles such as the (Tank Trap, Log Pond, Frame Twister, Hill climbs, Rock Crawling etc) and they get
their names for a good reason! None of the challenges I have been to would a car ever make it half way into the staging
ground. that is where the rigs are towed to on trailers before being unloaded and running the circuit, let alone be able to run
any of the obstacles. Well with the exception of the 79' trans am I once saw, completely modified with 44" Boggers and 4wd
with Hydraulic front & rear steering capabilities (But that's not really a car is it).
The only damage it took was off a five foot jump when it nose dived and bent the radiator
Even I limit my air time in the jeep, since it's not build like a pre-runner and the frame is the weakest link if not properly
reinforced! I have seen many a rig, snap the frame in two doing little jumps of ledges less than 5 feet!
defiant July 25th, 2006, 01:08 AM

Jacks Complete: My discussion about shooting down helos is based on the book "A Bright Shining Lie" - as well as discussions
with numerous Vietnam Vets.
I admit that fire from multiple sources increases the odds, but that wasn't the situation in the earlier days of US involvement.
The Viet Cong didn't have adequate resources in those days, and weapons with enough range to down helos were not in
abundant supply. The N. Vietnamese had internal problems, and consequently did not support a S. Vietnam insurgency that
had no foreseeable chances of winning. At the time China too was non-comittal.
The reversal was tactics. The Vietnamese dug holes straight down from which they operated from. If macjine gun fire
approached their cover they'd duck down. A bomb dropped directly on top of the hole was the only defense/offense, and that
was a near impossibility.
Beforehand I was discussing only the ability to take out helos - and not emphasizing taking them out from a moving vehicle.
If there was a planned op involving a vehicle and the anticipated need to take out a helo, the approach would obviously differ.
One approach would be to anticipate a helo's response time. Knowing the escape route of the vehicle, "sentries" could take up
positions to take out the copter. If assets were limitted or otherwise didn't allow for this type of engagement, a car could be
stashed in an underground garage. The idea is to drive the escape vehicle into the underground garage - where it's swapped
for vehicle two (which is a different color/make). Obviously those in the helo can't observe what's going on underground, giving
the target vehicle (occupants) the opportunity to escape.
Circumstances vary, and plans should be adapted accordingly.
festergrump July 25th, 2006, 09:34 AM

Large airports like LAX, Ohare, Laguardia, ect. are 'No Fly Zones' for helicopters, IIRC. Providing you can first lose the ground
units you should be able to boost a different make/model/color car there and drive out with the regular flow of traffic.
rsx914 July 25th, 2006, 05:16 PM

I would not even try to engage a helicopter. I wouldn't even want to engage the police. Let's assume you are, oh, I don't
know, going to knock off an armored car. Focusing just on the exit strategy, you know you have a limited amount of time to
get away before you're behind the eight ball. Assume there are witnesses. Assume they saw which direction you went. Assume
they got a make on your vehicle and tag number. Assume they know everything. You have had weeks to plan this out and you
better know exactly what you will do.
Leave the area in the direction least likely to be obstructed, ie: right turn, no stop signs, less traffic. Turn right once out of
sight of the witnesses. Proceed straight again until out of sight of that first right turn and turn right again. Go straight, and by
this time you should bring your speed back within legal limits, until you reach a predetermined locale in which you can park,
sometimes within sight of the origination point, in an apartment complex parking lot for example. Back into the space and
change plates. Change clothes. At this point you could change vehicles, or simply wait. If you're really cheeky you can use a
spotter's scope and watch your rivals, or take their picture so you know who you're up against. When the fuss dies down
(usually within six hours) and it's dark leave and go hide the vehicle until you can dispose of it.
I didn't like they way they portrayed that heist in Heat because I don't think the van would have burned completely before the
fire truck arrived and maybe preserved some evedence. Besides the rediculous idea that a tow truck could tip an armored truck
over. The timer on the gas bomb wasn't even necessary. Hollywood.
Plan it all out. Go through a trial run. Time yourself. If it doesn't look good, walk away. They only catch 10%.
dana_m_h July 25th, 2006, 11:55 PM

i heard stories about a theif that had a super-kart that evaded the police for weeks before being caught.....a super-kart is the
difference between an F-1 supercar and a gokart.... http://www.superkart.org.uk/
that should be a link
0 - 60mph in 3.5 secs

150+mph top speed
80+bhp & 120kgs
nearly 3 g's in a turn!!!!!!!!
Dem pigs aint gonna dun spot me!!!!
only problem.... very suspicious.... if you just want to fit in...
less $$$$ in those than most daily driven cars.... used $1000-$2000
Jacks Complete July 26th, 2006, 06:02 AM

Not much luggage space in there... however, it would be good for a back-up trick in a town center. Leave one parked
somewhere as a fallback plan, somewhere covered over with lots of exits, like a multistory. Get in on foot whilst in hot pursuit,
then disappear on that, heading through pedestrian areas, under locked barriers, bypassing those poles that slide down to let
buses past, etc. until you are away. No exactly subtle, but far far better than being on foot.
dana_m_h July 26th, 2006, 06:42 PM

It is probably better than being in any other type of car too for urban high speed persuits. You could probably outfit it with a
small amount of bond gizmos............. like ......a ball bearing dispenser that dumps a coffee can full of BBs on the road
behind you ..... do it before a turn and the piggies wont be able to follow
Another fun thing would be the typical oil slick dispenser.... or while we are Bond...... a flamethrower! to get some good bacon,
babyback ribs, ham, and some pork rinds while we are bar-be-queing.
Sorry for going all out like that ... I am hungry.
Cobalt.45 July 26th, 2006, 10:06 PM

I would try for a diversion tactic. A stolen LPG delivery truck, or the like, parked in a conspicuous place. Rigged either remotely
or by timer with thermite and/ or massive smoke generating device. The cop(ter) would have to make a choice- dull, boring
little you, or...
rsx914 July 27th, 2006, 02:41 PM

I would try for a diversion tactic.
Tried that, not an LPG truck though, but a diversion. It works. Although the sherriff was on the 5 o'clock news saying it didn't.
It's hard to do alone, but it's possible.
I like your idea Cobalt.45. Would it have to be an entire truck? Because the logistics of arranging for a certain truck to be at a
certain place at a certain time could be a headache. How about a 50 gallon lpg tank in a stolen Escort? Or whatever there's lots
of in the area. I'm not into killing innocent bystanders either, though so the placement would take some thought.
nbk2000 August 1st, 2006, 05:56 AM

Having recently watched several hundred videos of fights, of which numerous ones take place in or around cars, I've noticed a
common occurance of an attacker reaching in through a window (rolled down or broken) to either strike the occupant, or unlock
the door and drag 'em out.
This can be addressed by a few simple measures.
1) Install netting over the windows and windshields, on the interior, of course.
The netting isn't the type you see in the NASCAR racers, but a net made from very fine kevlar line, like Spiderwire fishing line.
100lb line of this stuff is thinner than dental floss, and nearly impossible to break by hand.
The netting is about 2" apart, and a dark green, so it's very nearly invisible, especially at night.
So now you can have your windows rolled down and know that anyone trying to suckerpunch you is going to fail in a painful
manner. :p
Throwing bottles and rocks won't work, and stricking with bats and sticks won't work either.
Only spearing movements with a rod or pole would get through the netting. Hopefully you're not going to hang around long
enough for them to figure that out and implement it.
2) Replace the OEM doorlocks with ones that can only be operated by foot, on the floor by the pedals, rather than in the door
where everyone knows where they're at.
If someone wants to open the door of your car, so they can drag you out, they already know where to reach, as every car is
built the same.
Confound them by making the normal door locks useless. :)
The unlocking mechanism for electric door locks is a switch, and switchs can be installed anywhere, so do so.
Take a lesson from the cops...rear doors don't need interior releases.
3) Get your car windows laminated with shatter-resistant film, so ding-dongs can't break them out in the first place.
Dank$taVegas August 10th, 2006, 01:36 PM

I was reading a book about the mob, and came across a brief mention that talked about a hit man named by "Milwaukee Phil"
the one who was credited with designing what some people labeled as the "Hitmobile". It is said to have been equipped with
all the necessities for the commission of efficient homicide. The vehicle was fitted with such devices as switches, that would
turn the front & rear lights on/off to confuse police tailors, a secret compartment in the backrest Carried an array of lethal
weapons, and it also contained a device that could clamp and anchor down rifles & shotguns to make shooting & aiming steady
while the car was moving.
I was wondering if anyone had any more information about this so called "Hitmobile" that they could add to this. I have been
searching the net with no luck as of yet, but I'll keep trying.
Jacks Complete August 11th, 2006, 07:46 PM

I thought of something neat, get a strap and anchor the nose of your Uzi or Mac down, so you can empty the magazine
without muzzle climb for your drive-by. Easier than a gun emplacement or point that you would have to explain.
nbk2000 August 12th, 2006, 06:13 AM

A plexiglass replacement window with a hole just big enough for the muzzle to fit out of would be great.
Assuming a closed bolt action, almost all the noise would outside of the vehicle, the weapon held down, and with all the brass
contained within (no shell casings for forensic piggies to find. :p).
anonymous411 August 20th, 2006, 10:59 AM

I once heard a story from a patrolman about a fugitive's crappy old beat-up car that had a very special modification under the
driver-side door...a springloaded machete. The theory being theat some unfortunate pork comes over for a routine traffic stop
and WHAM!!! there goes his feet at the ankles. :)
panchovilla September 13th, 2006, 03:28 PM

I once use to move things in my car that made getting pulled over a high risk, so I started carrying a small 1.5 gallon tank of
gas in side the car in case I had to set the car on fire.
I still remember that troopers face as he ran to the back of his car to get his fire extinguisher. Arson has a shorter jail time
than possession of ???
Since I am a dreaded noob, I would like to say "hello to all".
++++
Notice the changes made to your post. Grammar and using I when referring to yourself is MANDATORY here. NBK
c.Tech September 14th, 2006, 06:47 AM

I'm still laughing at a vision of you tipping the petrol in your car and lighting it in front of a cop. :D You did well.
I'm assuming that you had a commercial quantity of drugs or a dead body in your car.
Did you loose any money out of your arson aside from the car?
panchovilla September 14th, 2006, 09:19 PM

I'm still laughing at a vision of you tipping the petrol in your car and lighting it in front of a cop. :D You did well.
I'm assuming that you had a commercial quantity of drugs or a dead body in your car.
Did you loose any money out of your arson aside from the car?
i did not lose any money, i lost three months of time and earned two years of probation. :rolleyes:
Sausagemit September 14th, 2006, 09:58 PM

If I was ever to get into an off-road chase my choice in vehicle would have to be a Bowler Wildcat. Those things are absolutely
insane and street legal (in the UK at least).
http://www.bowler-offroad.com/NAV1.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARcRHKosQoo
As for a paved road chase, I would have nothing less than my BMW even though I'm not done with it yet. I know it will be very
fast and very capable. Although it will not be street legal and thus not registerable but it will only be driven on the road if
absolutely necessary. Most of the driving time it will see will be at the local auto-x or scca event. And most likely if I need to
do something bad with it will not be local.
It will be completely debadged, shaved door handles (how are the assailants going to open the door when they can't find the
door handle), no chrome, painted in flat black, flat smoked lights, dark tint on the windows, complete roll cage, and all sorts
of other goodies.
And with it being debadged and with it being a car produced from 1984 all the way until 1992 with no major design changes I
believe I could get away with some completely bogus plates. And it being a very popular model of BMW (e30) I doubt they
could even start to look.
As for bond-esqe gadgets: A jellied gasoline sprayer with at least a 10 gallon tank, enough to coat there wheel wells and the
entire front of a couple of cars if necessary would be preferable. And it would have two modes: spray it in a fine mist into the
air, and empty the god damn tank on the ground. And it would need some sort of ignition system.
I'm thinking a bunch of roman candle like items would work perfectly and could be produced fairly cheaply. Basically take a
bunch of roman candles apart, insert the balls minus the separation packing into a pipe, electric ignition, and you have a
rapid-fire ro man candle. Make about 30 of th ese, wire each one in dividually an d you re set.
Ignition at the source would not be preferable because of the turbulence at the back of the car causing a flaming mess and
possibly destroying the car. You would want to have the ignition system on the bottom of the car and the other stuff up near
the trunk lid for safety.
And a crappy pic of my BMW

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h256/sausagemit/Car%20Pics/04-12-06_0958-1.jpg
Sausagemit September 15th, 2006, 01:20 AM

http://www.torquenstein.net/technology.htm
This guy has some good ideas and some proven techniques.

Here's something that makes tire spike strips impotent! :p
http://www.gizmag.com/picture.php?s=14&p=3603_31080614917.jpg
http://www.gizmag.com/go/3603/
c.Tech January 14th, 2007, 06:07 AM

Reading the sto p stick thread it appears that cars with 0 air pressure are illegal in the UK, this is a law that I m imagin ing will
happen in other countries. The question is how would the Tweel be able to be kept concealed?
Tweel s in countries where they re legal would still cause sus picion being expos ed, all the m ore reason to hide th em.
I don t have tires around at th is m oment to examine apa rt from cars on th e street so I cant work ou t how, what do you all
think?

There is nothing suspicious about having a tweel, if you have ever had your tire blow out while driving on a highway, you would
be very amenable to the idea of paying much higher prices not to repeat the incident. I know I am.
nbk2000 January 14th, 2007, 06:15 PM

What about taking a regular tire, cutting off the treads, and mounting the sidewalls on the sides of the tweel to hide it?
c.Tech January 14th, 2007, 10:17 PM

Sounds good nbk, would melting rubber be able to seal the sidewalls to the Tweel treads leaving no visible evidence? If not
then maybe leaving a bit of rubber stick out where its been sealed, sand it away then smooth it.
Another problem is to make them look inflated. Maybe pressing the side and coating it with epoxy could solve the problem.
FullMetalJacket January 15th, 2007, 01:29 AM

Supercharged Leyland P76 with independent suspension (nicked from a junked jag), forged, lightened, mandrel-bent custom
built EVERYTHING with big-ass nismo fuel injectors, bosch pump and surge, plus an auxiliary 100-litre tank. Oh, and anything I
don't need has been ripped out, and panels up-armoured. Bigger rims, run-flat tyres, satellite phone and internet connection.
I want some sort of plow blade on the front. Or spikes.
Match January 15th, 2007, 08:37 AM

Sounds good nbk, would melting rubber be able to seal the sidewalls to the Tweel treads leaving no visible evidence? If not
then maybe leaving a bit of rubber stick out where its been sealed, sand it away then smooth it.
Another problem is to make them look inflated. Maybe pressing the side and coating it with epoxy could solve the problem.
Melt and Sand rubber? lol. :rolleyes:
If you did manage to rubber cement the sidewalls of a tire with a similar inner and outer diameter, you'd also have the
problem of balancing the Tweel.
You could possibly fill Tweel with foam, let it harden then shave it till it looked like a nice ballooning tire, then cover it in some
thin rubber like that from an inner tube.
This only applies if you did some how manage to acquire a set of tweels as they aren't for sale and I believe Michelin hasn't
released any commercial plans for the tweel since they showcased it several years ago.
++++++++++
I'm thinking the best gadget to have on your car would be a device for knocking out that first patrol car that sees you and
pulls you over for a matching vehicle description or something like that. Some sort of blinding agent to cover their windshield
and a electronic disruptor to cripple their communications. You know, something to knock him out before he makes a positive
description and he has a reason to call back up.
Couple that with a powerful smoke generating device and a dual purpose motorcycle mounted in the back and you'd be set.
Auxiliary fuel tank on the bike and you could out run even the most equipped of the fuzz.
:cool:
InfernoMDM January 18th, 2007, 09:11 PM

Tires being part of the suspension system and all wouldn't filling a tweel or any tire for that matter cause your car to get
beaten up a lot quicker? That means suspension overhaul at the least.
Also with the comments about a window with a hole in it. If your weapon isn't closed bolt like NBK stated then your going to get
overpressure in your car and possibly blow out your own eardrums/ car windows.
As for forensic evidence left at the scene from brass, shooting the weapon 400-600 times will change the weapons
characteristics enough. Bullets left at the scene would be just as damning as brass.
I probably hate you January 23rd, 2007, 08:35 AM

You can buy used armored cars and trucks . There was (or maybe still is) a few on ebay.They wouldnt look suspicious infront
of most businesses . Fill the tires with foam (hard to balance) turbo charge the engine (would need better crank and rods
beyond about 500-600 hp for sb). It already has your shooting holes (or whatever you call them) if you got some money get a
.50bmg they crack an engine block quite easily . Maybe with some big ass magnets you could rig up a irregular shaped
explosive that would kinda bounce around and stick to the underbelly of whoever is chasing you . A series of straight firing
solid fueled rockets in the front and rear mounted to the underbody in some steel tubes for clearing assholes out of the way
(or deer,cats,birds,pedestrians etc..)
Something else would be side mounted flame throwers (I saw them once on tv on the discovery channel some show about
armored cars)If there was only one cop just pull over let the fucker run up there screaming at you to get out give him a little
smile then roast his ass , blow up his car and drive away.
In reality though an old 4 door beater with minimal elctronics a large trunk and hood for ramming , a v8 ,maybe still try to fill
the tires with foam I have seen farmers do it to there equipment , a buddy with a fn fal , and a escape plan with lots of
redundancy , one thing I have learned is if something can go wrong it often time does so I always try to have lots of back up
options.Maybe a thermite charge to get rid of whatever you are hiding .If you ever did get caught jump out and scream no
more anal probes and keep ranting about how you dont want them to take you back to the mother ship if you could keep the
up for a while , maybe a few months , you probably would have a short visit to a mental institution and go home .
Alexires January 24th, 2007, 06:19 AM

Hate to burst your bubble Match, but if you are thinking about outrunning a pig mobile on a motorbike, you're dreaming.
The only use I could see for having a motor bike in a car at your disposal is to change vehicles at a point after the crime.
For example, you steal that bitching ______ (which is small enough to carry in a backpack or less) and you jump in your car
(letting it be seen by cops). You then ditch the car at some place and ride your bike outa there.
Of course, to outrun a cop car (on a bike) you either need
a) A really good racing bike (bigger than a 650cc, probably along the lines of a 900cc or a 1000cc) with a full tank of fuel or
b) a lot of traffic ahead of you. This is the only really benefit of a bike. You can lane split. If you don't understand what I'm
talking about just imagine riding a motorbike between 2 lanes of parked (or moving) cars.
Otherwise I'd stick with a car. Cars handle better than bikes, go faster (unless its a big bike like a zx9r or a zx12r) and carry
more loot than bikes. If its wet, its worse than you can possibly imagine.
Although there are regulations as to how fast cops can go when in pursuit, they tend to judge for themselves. A pig I was
talking to said that he had their cop car dialed off the speedometer (above 240km/h or 150 miles per hour) and on a bike
that is fast. I've done 170km/h on race tracks and that is just insane. Fuck doing it on a road with trees, wildlife, birds, flies,
ANYTHING.
Also remember, outrunning the pursuit is half the battle (if you're too stupid to evade it in the first place). The other half is
outrunning the helicopter that they can call in (depending where you are).
While it has its merits Match, there are only very specific times you could ever use a car/bike combo to E&E (escape and
evade).
PS. Some vague figures from my own experience.

650cc motorbike will just break 200km/h. Doesn't matter what brand, thats about the best you are going to get. I know cop
cars go ALOT faster than that. Unless you are used to riding fast like that, you WILL kill yourself. No if buts or maybes about
it. You'd need something like the GSX 1300 (Hayabusa) to even begin thinking about out running cop cars on a straight road
(breaks 300km/h).
Just stick with cars.
fiknet January 24th, 2007, 06:37 AM

Related to what Alexires said, it will be tough to outrun a police on a motorbike unless you are a very skilled rider and riding a
top of the line racing bike, like this guy is. :p
http://www.break.com/index/awesome_police_motorbike_chase.html
Just to ask, I haven't really seen anyone get out of the chase scenario because they mainly get choppers tracking you
(However I think in that video the bike is capable of out running a chopper ) and many patrol cars covering large areas.
nbk2000 January 24th, 2007, 07:42 AM

Man, that video was fucking AWESOME! :D
Fastest speed I saw was 250 Km/H, which is over 150MPH. :eek:
Rather than limiting yourself to roads, even on an insanely fast bike, I'd go with a motocross bike, that I could ride over most
any terrain, leaving the piggies stranded on the pavement while I'm zooming through the woods. :p
Match January 24th, 2007, 09:30 AM

Hate to burst your bubble Match, but if you are thinking about outrunning a pig mobile on a motorbike, you're dreaming.....
.....The only use I could see for having a motor bike in a car at your disposal is to change vehicles at a point after the
crime.....
...Also remember, outrunning the pursuit is half the battle (if you're too stupid to evade it in the first place). The other half is
outrunning the helicopter that they can call in (depending where you are)....
...While it has its merits Match, there are only very specific times you could ever use a car/bike combo to E&E (escape and
evade).
Just stick with cars.
and a dual purpose motorcycle mounted in the back and you'd be set. Auxiliary fuel tank on the bike and you could out run
even the most equipped of the fuzz.
:cool:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-sport :rolleyes:
I wasn't talking about a normal motorcycle, nor was I talking about out running anyone on paved roads.
From my experience, the fuel tank in such a bike will last on average 4 hours, 3 if you're going flat out. Aux. tank to extend
your rang up to say 8 hours and you could easily out run a helicopter (or even two). But the whole point would be to get out of
the area quick enough, taking routes unimaginable to the police in their cruisers, and avoid even being seen at all by the bird.
Such a bike would be wicked for cruising the urban jungle, riding through fields, on gravel roads, through ditch and into the
forest.
Even if the cruisers by direction of the helicopter had the ability to follow you by taking range roads (gravel roads) they'd be
limited by how fast their cruisers could go on wash board which may be as low as 60 km/h. Where I live the mountains are less
then an hour away from the city, get your bike up there and into the cut lines and you're gone.
It would be wise to carry a decent set of cable cutters on the bike aswell to cut through cattle fences.
Furthermore, I wouldn't expect to out run any force while on a normal motorcycle, which reminds me of a little discussion I had
with the sheriff;
This is while I was at the gas station filling up the 1300 cc busa, with the speed governor removed, capable of 305 km/h...
before I shut it down :)
Me: So, you put premium in that bitch? :D

Cop: You can't out run the Motorolas (Radio)
He was very blunt and butt hurt in his reply to my simple question
;)

Going flat out, at high revs, you use a lot more fuel than normal. Don't forget that. You use twice the fuel going at 6000rpm
than at 3000rpm. That's one reason you have gears! And you will find that hard acceleration and high top speeds will drain
your tank a lot faster than just crusing.
That guy in Holland looked like he was having fun. Try that in the UK and there would have been a good few cop cars closing
off the exits as the calls came in, and the helicopter probably would have been on scene within ten minutes, unless it had a
bigger job on elsewhere.
You don't want to be going in straight lines. That's where the radio and roadblock pays off. And a car gets stuck in traffic, so
while the cop car slows down and flashes his lights and gets through fine, the punters sit in a queue. The bike can evade all
that. Just don't get rammed!
I'd probably go for the bike in the UK, as anything else and you are screwed.
Having said that, if it was late at night, you could use a very fast car, like the Koenigsegg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Koenigsegg) to simply be gone before trouble arrives. Stick to the smaller places with plenty of road turns and no speed
bumps, and you would be fine. Perhaps.
I probably hate you January 30th, 2007, 03:20 AM

You know this is slightly off topic but more than a vehicle what you need is to take away the pigs advantages . Some way to
jam there radio and ir camo would top my list , really as far as I know once they have a chopper on you , you are kinda fucked
, with some ir camo (which they sell , I dont know if they sell it to civilians) You would be fine hiding in some ones back yard ,
radio has been the biggest enemy of the outlaw for a 100 years or so , get rid of that and you would be in business , shit you
could even place remote jammers along you escape path if you needed better jamming . That is just my 2 cents without radio
pigs cant do much they only have power in numbers like some people of different ethnic back grounds I can think of .

Match - I hate you *grin*. As if you have a busa!
Back to topic. Don't get me wrong, I love bikes and would prefer to have one to out run cops most of the time, but from a
unbiased viewpoint, cars still have a place.... Or microlights. They TOO have a place, and should certainly be considered.
Also, for those of you that can get it, ever think about the Ariel Atom 2? Wouldn't be a bad get away car in my opinion.
...That video is sick. Absolutely sick. I revise my above statement. Bikes own...in straight lines. I saw either 235,285 or 295.
Anyway, that is fast....
See what happens when he gets into some traffic? Comes awefully close to that truck and swerves out into the middle of the
lane. I would have just opened it up, dodged shit on the straight and then bailed at the first opportunity.
anonymous411 January 31st, 2007, 04:47 AM

Could somebody please explain how that motorcycle chase video supposed to be filmed? Where did the perfectly-stabilized
front and rear cameras come from? I must be missing something, because I thought the whole thing looked faker than hell.
nbk2000 January 31st, 2007, 04:55 AM

By 'perfectly stabilized', do you mean clamped to the bike?
It's no different than the cameras I've seen mounted on bikes for professional sports on TV.
Boom-stick March 1st, 2007, 01:26 PM

My main car wasa 4.6 litre Range Rover HSE, the only optional extras it didn't have was Sat-Nav. It was spec'd through the
roof, walnut, leather A/C etc... But Alas, it was taken from my driveway by some thieving scumbags in the early hours of a
Sunday morning about 6 months ago:mad:
I now drive either a Renault Megan 2.0 16v or my Smart Cabrio:D
Tinton June 16th, 2007, 02:10 AM

What you want is something effective, but not TOO illegal. i.e.: grenade launchers!
Just obscure their vision.
Paint would probably be the easiest way, seeing as it can't be too easily removed.
Rear-firing paint sprayer would be perfect for the job. Let them come near your tail, then coat their windshield with the stuff.
Maybe you could even draw little crosshairs on your rear-view mirror ;)
Bob The 1st July 18th, 2007, 01:07 AM

Something really important about trying to escape from the police would be your own driving experience. You think driving is
easy? Try driving a car going 100+ with not much or no experience and see how long you last without crashing (obviously that
really depends on traffic and other conditions too).
The same with a motorcycle. I'd never even attempt to go that fast on a bike, not after seeing the wicked road rash one of my
cousins got after crashing his. So if I were ever to attempt something big, or even something small, that required a getaway,
I'd definately be honing up on my driving beforehand.
And even if you DO get away from the cops (which is becoming increasingly harder these days, what with air support and all
their nifty gadgets), consider the after. What happens when they find your burnt out car that *probably* still has something
linking you?
I really like the fake tag ideas, but what about a fake tag that's actually someones license plate? You scope around, maybe
look up (I don't really know if that's possible or not) and find a car with a similar make/model and make a fake plate that
matches theirs. After you ditch the fake plates, they're going to go straight for that car because they have records on it.
Hopefully this is useful.
Hirudinea July 20th, 2007, 03:14 PM

I really like the fake tag ideas, but what about a fake tag that's actually someones license plate? You scope around, maybe
look up (I don't really know if that's possible or not) and find a car with a similar make/model and make a fake plate that
matches theirs. After you ditch the fake plates, they're going to go straight for that car because they have records on it.
If you steal someones plates they will probably report them stolen, but if you write down someones plate number, the same
model car as your going to use, and make fake plates with that number (just painted if your cheap, with a vacuform machine
if you want to go all out) then once you ditch the fake plates your "twin" is the one who will get a visit from the cops.
Bob The 1st July 21st, 2007, 01:48 AM

I honestly think that it would be hard to make a painted license plate stand up to scrutiny from even a passerby, much less a
cop.
But then again, if anyone saw your fake plates during your scheme, they're not going to think "Oh hey, those don't look very
real!". They're going to think "OOH I saw their license plate lets report it!".
Even if that happened, they still serve the purpose of fake plates (that is, to obscure your own plates).
Hirudinea July 21st, 2007, 03:04 PM

I honestly think that it would be hard to make a painted license plate stand up to scrutiny from even a passerby, much less a
cop.
Depends, if you used a plastic vacuforming machine to make the licence you could probably make a good copy of a 2 colour
licence plate, even with a flat plate you could put a plastic plate cover over it and drive your car through some mud and dust
obscuring the plate enouh with dirt so people wouldn't notice it looked slightly odd.
But then again, if anyone saw your fake plates during your scheme, they're not going to think "Oh hey, those don't look very
real!". They're going to think "OOH I saw their license plate lets report it!".
Even if that happened, they still serve the purpose of fake plates (that is, to obscure your own plates).
Yep, thats the point, and since the fake plate is a real plate on another vehicle the police will check out that vehicle first.
nbk2000 July 22nd, 2007, 04:58 AM

Where I'm at, the license plate numbers are raised with a retroflective background and a hologram of the state seal.
Now, you could make plaster casts of the letters (using various scrap plates), to make a mix-n-match set of letters of the
proper font out of colored resin.
These fake letters could then be attached to a flat retroflective plate.
Hologram via teslin.
If you could score a genuine unstamped plate, with a set of resin letters and numbers, you'd be set. :)
Cobalt.45 July 22nd, 2007, 02:30 PM

Steal current tags from body shops. The wreaked cars are stored outside, awaiting repair. Typically, the repairs take days,
even weeks. A missing plate would not be noticed.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > "Blinking"
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nbk2000 January 18th, 2003, 01:28 AM

With the prices of digital cameras plummeting by the hour (OK, slight exageration), their quality and usefulness increases by
similar leaps and bounds.
With all the laws passed since 9/11, not just in the US but also most of the world, police and government agents are now
being allowed to covertly enter your home to fiddle with your computer, plant hidden surveillance devices, and otherwise snoop
around. And they don't have to tell you that they've done this...ever.
With these facts in mind, the idea of using Time Compression (fancy words for time lapse) photography came to mind, as a
way of catching the snoops snooping.
See, if you try to remember how things were placed when you leave, you'll invariably miss the small signs of snooping since
it's SOP for them to take polaroids to ensure things are emplaced as they were before the snooping.
However, no matter how much they try to replace things exactly as they were, it's impossible to do. There will ALWAYS be some
deviation, no matter how slight, from original placement.
But, even with two side by side photos, the eye can't tell the difference if the difference is small enough.
That's where "Blinking" comes in. This is a technique used by astronomers who are looking for deep space objects (asteroids,
whatnot). They take pictures of the same space, but at widely seperated times, and then compare the two pictures using a
"blinker". This is an optical device that rapidly switches back and forth between the two pictures.
The human eye, being that of a predatory animal, is keyed to the detection of movement. While we can't see stationary
objects very well, we can detect minute movement quite easily. By rapidly switching between the two pictures, this creates the
illusion of movement that allows for easy detection.
We'd use the same principle, using our computers, to detect the snoops.
This is done by using a digital camera to take a picture of (whatever), then taking another picture at a later time from the
EXACT same spot, and using your computer to rapidly flash back and forth between the two pictures. ANY movement will
become evident.
For this to work, the pictures have to be taken from the EXACT same place, at seperate times, otherwise any detected
movement may simply be a shift in perspective caused by the slightly shifted camera position.
To ensure exact placement, the area to be protected by blinking can have some immovable object used as a fixed point of
reference. This could be something like a mounted frame into which the camera would be placed when "blinking", or several
holes drilled into a large piece of furntiture into which a camera mounted stud fitting would fit into to ensure exact alingment.
Since the camera is digital, and the media is likely to be removable and the size of a small coin, you can leave the camera
hidden at home and just take the media with you. Before leaving, you "blink" the scene, then take the media with you so it
can't be tampered with. When you get back, you "blink" it again and compare the images.
The resolution of detection would be dependant on the cameras resolution, and the distance of the moved object from the
POV of the camera. The closer the camera is to the moved object, the better the camera resolution, the more precisely the
object has to be replaced to avoid "blink" detection.
At macro ranges, you could "blink" your computers motherboard (assuming open case, like mine) and compare it over time to
ensure that nothing "extra" has been added to it that might be transmitting what you're typing to FBI surveillance crews.
This could be used for non-TFH (Tin Foil Hat) purposes, like telling if the motel maid went through your luggage, or such.
Rat Bastard January 18th, 2003, 03:22 AM

Helvetica"> With all the laws passed since 9/11, not just in the US but also most of the world, police and government agents
are now being allowed to covertly enter your home to fiddle with your computer, plant hidden surveillance devices, and
otherwise snoop around. And they don't have to tell you that they've done this...ever. <hr /></blockquote>Christ this is 1984!
I should try that with my camera (Nikon CoolPix 995)

<img src="http://krimzonpyro.com/rat/photo/coolpix-995.gif" alt=" - " />
I never knew about this "blinking technique" untill now; thanks.
Eliteforum January 18th, 2003, 11:34 AM

Not related to "blinking" but I thought this might prove intresting reading.
DIRT stands for Data Interception by Remote Transmission (or Terminal not sure).
It is a program that allows the spooks and law enforcement to monitor your online computer activity from a remote location.
With this, there is no need to break into your home/office and monkey around with your box.
Beware IIRC, it also has an option to UPLOAD evidence without leaving evidence of the act.
Even in your own home your not secure..!
Edit: <a href="http://www.codexdatasystems.com/menu.html" target="_blank">Link</a>

[ January 18, 2003, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Eliteforum ]

DIRT is just another crappy trojan, but if you want to know more about it, this link is far better than linking to the
manufacturer:
<a href="http://cryptome.org/dirt-files.htm" target="_blank">http://cryptome.org/dirt-files.htm</a>
nbk2000 January 19th, 2003, 01:35 AM

Visual aids are obviously needed here.
This is two pictures taken at seperate times. An object in view has been moved 1/2". Can you tell what the object is?
<img src="http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/blink.jpg" alt=" - " />
Once you've given up, click on <a href="http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/blinking.gif" target="_blank">this link</a> to see
"blinking" in action. Much easier, isn't it?
With a 1/8" movement, it looks like it's shivering. :D
After furthur testing, I've figured out that, for the scene above, the lowest detectable movement is about the thickness of a
penny or two. :)
However, the movement of this small of a distance is only possible when the object is moved across the FOV. A movement of
more than 1/2" is required to be detectable when the object is moved in line, towards or away from, the camera. :(
So, to maximize detectability, you'd want to "blink" the same scene from two POV, at 90&deg angles to each other. Thus, no
matter which way something is moved, it'll be moved across the FOV of at least one of the POVs. :)
Another use would be to see if a cache or drop has been tampered with before going to collect it. It's been known for the FBI
to follow a person, wait for them to finish doing the drop, then dig it up and swap out the contents for tampered/altered
contents.
If you took a picture of the drop when you were done with it, and e-mailed it to the receiver, they could take a picture
themselves (using the same type of camera from a marked location) so they could "blink" it before retrieval to detect possible
tampering. :)
D.I.R.T. has absolutely nothing to do with this topic, thank you very much "elite", for trying to sidetrack my topic with OLD
news. :mad:
zeocrash January 19th, 2003, 07:30 AM

thats amazing, i never thought it'd be that obvious, but that really does show movement
metafractal January 19th, 2003, 12:36 PM

While this is impressive, if one is to take this seriously will you really want to do this every day? Or what? You only check them
when you think that your under suspicion? I'd say that it will be no conincadence that the day they do search your house will be
the day that you dont check...
Dont bring in the element of human laziness: god invented computers for a reason. I'd say that it would be much more
feasable to have a dedicated system with a few webcams coming out of it. Then, write a program to automatically take pictures
either at set times or on demand of these spots, and warn you if the two pictures dont match. Only then would you analyze
them in the manner that NBK showed. Of course, it would not be a simple pixel for pixel match, but it would not be terribly
difficult to write an algorithm to detect the movement of whowle objects, even if only a quick and dirty edge detection and then
the use of the 'magic wand' technique seen in many of todays graphic manipulation programs. If done elegantly, it could be
failsafe and as easy as the press of the button. Neither the system nor the webcams would have to be of high standards.
While we leave behind the Pentium Is and IIs of yesterday and sell them for 1/4 oz of pocket lint, the fact remains that they
are still cabable of an enormous amount of data processing, especially when you take away all of the operating system's 'user
friendly-ness'. And as for the webcams- they dont need to be 'pretty', as long as reasonably clear shapes can be made out.
I suspect that such a system could be built for under AU$1000 (thats about US$500), and it may well save you your freedom.
I will certainly research further into the area, and if there is any support may even write some software to do the task.
Jhonbus January 19th, 2003, 01:09 PM

Striking demo, NBK.
Just some thoughts on why this is so much easier to see. As NBK said, it is clearly because of the movement factor. IE it is not
just easy to see because one photo is overlaid on top of the other. So it must be because of our innate ability to detect
movement. To demonstrate this, insert a blank frame, even for a short time, between the two frames you are "blinking". This
disrupts the image, so the brain interprets it as two separate images rather than as one moving image. Doing this can make
differences that would normaly be very obvious, become extremely difficult to see. Take a look at <a href="http://
www.boomspeed.com/jhonbus/kayakflick.gif" target="_blank">http://www.boomspeed.com/jhonbus/kayakflick.gif</a> and see
how long it takes you to figure out the difference between the two frames. Let it load first. (the server is extremely slow so it
may take a while)
[ January 19, 2003, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Jhonbus ]
nbk2000 January 19th, 2003, 07:07 PM

Indeed, webcams are getting to the point of being free, after rebates and all that. :)
If you had several installed in various places around the house, you could simply use them as video surveillance cameras,
since there's plenty of programs out there that'll activate the recording once they detect motion in their FOV. But that's not
blinking.
See, if the computer is on the scene, and you're not, then that leaves it open to tampering which could remove any traces of
the intrusion. But that'd be only if you relied on what was stored on the computer. If you copied snapshots off the webcams
onto (for instance) a USB thumbdrive, and took it with you, then "they" couldn't fiddle with anything. :)
However, for us broke dicks, we'd just have to rely on a really cheap digital camera to do the same thing. The camera I used
cost me $40 almost 2 years ago. I've seen them for $15 now.
I'm assuming that a person doesn't leave their "lair of evil" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> very often,
so they wouldn't have to do this every day, just on those odd days when they actually have to leave to go do something.
If the camera has a built in display, you might not even need to use a computer, if you can switch between the pictures fast
enough.
Also, for our younger members still living at home, you could use this to tell if your siblings or parents have been poking
through your chemical/porn stash. :p
Jhonbus, I tried that GIF you upped. It took me a couple minutes to figure it out. :o Then I removed the blank frames and
blinked it. The difference between the two pictures was instantly obvious. :)
A-BOMB January 19th, 2003, 10:01 PM

I mean who doesn't have a "lair of evil" :D ,and alot of those webcams/cheap still camera can be easily free. If you know what
I mean, I just got 2 new 1.3mega pixel AIPTEK DV2 for free, you just need to find the stores cameras blind spot(its usually in
the appliance section or in desks/chairs, they think who is going to shoplift a desk)
nbk2000 February 3rd, 2003, 04:58 AM

As a demonstration of real world applicability, I took my crappy digicam to the nearby car dealership.
I know from having talked to one of them that there are rent-a-cops who are paid to sit in the parking lot all night and watch
the place.
Since they have different guys, and different cars, you couldn't depend on recognizing the car he's sitting in. Usually they sit
for an hour or so, then do a lap around the lot. And they're not there every night, just a few nights a week.
So, tonight I went out and took a picture of the lot, then came back 4 hours later to take another picture. Below is the result.
<a href="http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/Blinking_Car.gif" target="_blank">http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/Blinking_Car.gif</

a>
Notice anything? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :)
I tried showing the picture here, but it blinks too fast in the browser. Save it to your computer and use an image viewer to see
the blink.
[ February 03, 2003, 04:04 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
Nico February 14th, 2004, 04:20 PM

This camera has a 'surveillance mode' ... you can set it to snap pics at regular intervals, up to 19 days in a row apparently.
Other cameras may have this function too, this is just the first one I saw it at.
This still has the problem of the camera being physically onsite, and thus subject to tampering, but I figured y'all love hearing
about a 'James Bond' camera! ;)
http://www.thinkgeek.com/electronics/cameras/655e/
http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/front/007camera-front.jpg

NBK2000,
I did a demo of this at Christmas for my other half! It is a very effective technique. I would recommend using a tripod mount
fixed somewhere, and leaving the camera behind if you can. Best is a concealed camera, which can be toggled via your PC.
That way, you can check in every so often, and the PC never forgets. It would also help with shifting light sources, as you will
find that as the day passes, the shadows shift, and things seem to move.
Another thing to note is that many of the little webcams come with motion detection software now, which lets you set up a
secure perimeter. I did one which was for "TrampWatchUK". If the PIR in the garden came on, it started recording ten seconds
BEFORE the light came on, using a digital record-to-disk delay. My card (PCI) will take 4 cameras, and they spiral up to taking
16, and you can use multiple cards (6 PCI slots * 16 = 96 cameras!)
There is an email alert facility, as well as audio and visual. Hooked to a modem and a cable/LAN connection, you could also
check the cameras remotely.
The disk and video compression used means the images can't be used in a UK court, but that really wouldn't matter for most
of us.
Nico February 16th, 2004, 08:36 PM

A combo of techniques is probably best. Have obvious cameras, hidden cameras, and a camera you take with you. Obvious
ones are meant to be bypassed, the hidden ones are for less skilled infiltrators, and the on-person one is the backup in case
pros are on to ya.
NightStalker February 17th, 2004, 03:56 AM

I just tried using NBK's 'blinking' technique, and I must say I'm very impressed!
I took two pictures about 1 minute apart. I moved only 1 object in the picture on purpose. I moved it the width of my comb,
which I've measured at 1/8" thick. The object I moved on purpose was about 10 feet away from the cameras position. And it's
noticeable for NOT moving.
See, considering how the technique picked up the minute difference in camera position from my pressing the shutter button,
and the tiny difference in the entire scene from the resulting perspective change, the change of the objects position in the
animation appears to be still, while everything else is moving just slightly.
Mind you, I had the camera set on a large table and pressed the shutter button as gently as possible, to minimize movement.
Also, there was a thing I didn't notice (until I 'blinked' the pictures) that shows quite obviously just how powerful NBK's idea can
be if used properly, as it'd be impossible to move across a room with a certain thing in it without revealing that someone had
been there.
I'll not reveal the secret here. Just download the attachment, let it play for a bit, zoom in if you need to, and you'll see it for
yourself.
If you're still stumped, read the TXT file included in the .ZIP file called "How I Did It", for the 'secret'.

I will have to guess until your attachment gets allowed...
Is it dust? Or a random collection of sticks that are on the floor? Or a sheepskin rug?
Any of those things will leave a telltale sign of movement or disturbance behind. Heck, even a thick pile carpet will!
Dust will not be under things that were moved a little, and fingers will remove that dust when the item is moved.
A collection of sticks would be impossible to change and replace, as they all rely on each other to form a rough pile, and
couldn't be replicated even with a picture. (though they might give false positives!)
The rug or carpet would change due to the effect of feet on the pile. This would be very obvious on something like a well-
fluffed rug. Kind of like the ploughed areas used to detect fence climbers at high security sites...
:)
KAROMESIS February 19th, 2004, 12:15 AM

any way that the authorities can be defeated is of significant use to those that would defy big brother and his tyrannical laws
and eavesdropping methods.
That being said I beleive it is also highly relevant to use ones 5 senses or 6 depending on who you are to their optimum
capacity.
there are different ways of increasing your sensory perceptions,wether through deprivation of certain senses as in the case with
certain blind individuals who have almost superhuman hearing and touch. I myself can smell if something is diffferent in my
habitat,even if it occured hours or even days beforehand.which would almost certainly lead to a frustrated and dead end
investigation :D .
nbk2000's blinking thread and it's NASA related technical origins, along with other sophisticated counter-suviellance would
defintitley be complemented by enhanced sensory perceptions of a most primitive sort. :)

Recent research has shown that people actually have a built in sense of "something changed" and can spot it quite often long
before they place it.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994638

'Mindsight' could explain sixth sense

19:00 04 February 04
Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition. <a class="red" href="/subscribe/subs_home.jsp?
promcode=nsnews">Subscribe</a> and get 4 free issues. Some people may be aware that a scene they are
looking at has changed without being able to identify what that change is. This could be a newly discovered mode of conscious
visual perception, according to the psychologist who discovered it. He has dubbed the phenomenon "mindsight".Ronald Rensink, based at the University of British Columbia in Canada, showed 40 people a series of photographic
images flickering on a computer screen. Each image was shown for around a quarter of a second and followed by a brief blank
grey screen. Sometimes the image would remain the same throughout the trial; in other trials, after a time the initial image
would be alternated with a subtly different one.In trials where the researchers manipulated the image, around a third
of the people tested reported feeling that the image had changed before they could identify what the change was. In control
trials, the same people were confident that no change had occurred. The response to a change in image and control trials was
reliably different. Our visual system can produce a strong gut feeling that something has changed, Rensink says,
even if we cannot visualise that change in our minds and cannot say what was altered or where the alteration occurred. "I think this effect explains a lot of the belief in a sixth sense." He has no idea what physical processes generate
mindsight, but says it may be possible to confirm it exists using brain scanners.Attentional
mechanismMindsight is not simply a precursor to normal visual perception, he argues, because there seems to be no
correlation between how long it takes someone to feel the change, and the time taken to identify what it is. The two
sometimes happened almost simultaneously, while at other times the subjects did not report seeing any difference until
seconds after they were aware of it.Vision researcher Dan Simons of the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign
says Rensink's finding "suggests the existence of an interesting and previously unknown attentional mechanism". 

KAROMESIS:
What you're describing sounds like a TV series here in America called "The Sentinel". Dude has "super" senses, like his eyes
are telephoto zoom lenses, ears are parabolic supermicrophones, tongue a mass spectrometer, nose like a bloodhound, and
touch like a nanoprobe.
Too much B.S.. :rolleyes:
Though there's nothing wrong with improving your general level of awareness, rather than blissfully cruising through life on
cruise control, not paying attention to your surroundings.
NightStalker:
That was a very interesting demonstration you provide there. :)
Gave me the thought of whether blinking could be used to detect underground subsidence (covert tunneling/sinkholes/graves)
from the slight depression of earth being removed.
I've found that the main problem with using the technique outside of your own home, especially over a period of time, is
maintaining the alignment exactly the same.
While you can set up mounts in your house, or use a tripod in a non-adversarial enviroment, it's not going to be possible to
do so if you were using it somewhere that is under constant surveillance/security.
Though this may not be a big issue since there's now the "007" :rolleyes: camera linked to.
Surely there's got to be some way to mod' it so that it doesn't have to be opened to work. Like drill a small hole through the
case exactly over the lens so it can see through the pinhole. And the shutter button needs to mod'd to be pressable without
opening. THEN you'd have something cool.
Imagine leaving the little bugger stuck to the underside of table at a bank just before closing...who knows what you might
see? A small FM transmitter tuned to the aircraft band could be time synched with the pictures for more information.
Guard schedules, whatever.
Also, what about stashing it somewhere in a car, like behind a radiator or such, so that, when your slutty girlfriend goes "out",
you know where she's going, and who with.
300 pictures, once every minute, equals five hours. :)
Might even work attached to armored cars. ;)
Anyways, back to the aligment issue, I've found that using a laser pointer in a home-made mounting that attaches to the
tripod screwhole in my camera allows the autofocus to work in low light (otherwise pictures come out fuzzy), and also to chose
a particular point as a constant target reference for multiple pictures over time.
As long as you stand in the same general spot, and aim the camera at the same exact target point (using the laser), then
you're pictures are almost exactly identical, without need of a tripod. If I could split the beam into multiple parts then I could
arrange them to fit on marks on the building/ground so they'd form a "virtual" tripod.
Though, again, taking pictures looks strange if you're standing in front of a bank while doing so.
One thing I've tried lately is the use of split mirrors for producing 3D stereophotographs.
Using sterophotography not only can provide the blink effect (though rather straining on the eyes after a few seconds), but
also depth, which would detect the otherwise nearly impossible to detect slight to/from movement, in relation to the cameras
perspective.
And stereomacrography provides a very interesting effect when used for photographing things like cutaway locks, as the depth
provides for a much greater understanding of the relationship of the parts to one another.
Similar types of depth effects can be provided by multiple photos, each with a different focus, and then stacking them using a
special program which assigns a color value to each pixel, with those of farthest focus being a color at one end of the
spectrum, and those nearest another. It ends up looking like one of those radar topography maps you see of mars, with
peaks being red and valleys blue.
Way cool! :D
As per RTPB "Stay informed of the latest technologies", I feel that there's a lot of untapped potential in photographic
techniques that are not being used by the pyro/crim.
Why taking a BORING picture of a crater, when you can take a sterograph of the same crater and we can all see HOW deep the
rabbit hole goes for ourselves. :)
Schlieren photography allows visualization of shockwaves. Where's our schlieren photos of COB's exploding, or penny EFP
platters zipping along at Mach3? Obviously we have yet to reach "The Next Level" in skills.
Though one day...:D
dinkydexy February 21st, 2004, 07:35 PM

Okay, so one way or another you rig up a 'blinking' orientated surveillance and security system so you'll know when anything in
your house has been moved.
Then what do you do?
NightStalker February 22nd, 2004, 01:45 AM

I would imagine the suitable response would be to toss up everything to figure out either what's missing or what has been
added.
Missing means stolen, added means planted.
If, after continued blinking, the missing item "reappears", then that means it's either been copied or tampered with.
Imagine blinking one of those keyring boxes that hold all the keys for a large business/apartment complex.
You are the owner of said business.
You suspect someone of being a thief.
What better way to set them up than to accidently (on purpose), leave the box unlocked with a day for them to do whatever
they'd do with an open keybox while they think you're out of town?
You blink the box before, and after, and ask them if they knew the keybox was open. They say no, but keys have been
moved, you know they're lying sacks 'o shit, and fire their asses (after changing the locks).
You could do the same thing in your own home. Have a big jar full of change sitting in plain sight. Blink before someone
(neighbors kids, your own kids, repair people, etc) come over, and after they leave.
People who are dishonest wouldn't hesitate to tap a couple of dollars out of a jar of coins when they're sure you wouldn't
"notice" the theft. The loss of a couple of dollars early on means saving money later on down the road by having kicked the
thief out of your house before they have opportunity to take anything big.
Hotel rooms...maids...obvious.
dinkydexy February 22nd, 2004, 06:18 AM

Yes, that was pretty much the kind of reply I was expecting.
i. I would advise any employer who was considering using the 'blinking' method you describe to think again. The method
proves only that the keys (or whatever) have been moved, not that he was responsible for that movement or that he has
subsequently done anything that would legally entitle you to fire him. As for the fact that he denied any knowledge...well,
excuse me, but he may well be telling the truth. ANYONE could have done it; even an LEA!
ii. If you seriously advocate setting up blinking observation traps to monitor the behaviour of your friends, neighbours and
even your own kids to prevent the theft of a few coins, then I think you are in need of counselling. This behaviour is paranoid
and antisocial.

Obviously someone missed the point.
The loss of a few bucks worth of coins isn't the objective. The goal is to test the honesty of the people you let into your home,
or entrust with your business.
If you find that a person cannot be trusted to not help themselves to a few dollars in PETTY change, then why on earth would
you trust them in your home with your family/irreplaceable possessions?
Lord, protect me from my friends; I can take care of my enemies.

Voltaire
The smiling neighbor you think you can trust with your house keys just might plant hidden cameras in your bedroom and
bathroom to peep on you. Don't think it can happen? It has to numerous people, much to their horror.
Not just peeping, but all manner of gross, rude, vulgar and bizarre things happen when people think they're not being
watched. Anything from drinking out of your milk carton to jacking off into your food, sniffing your wifes dirty underwear, or
your 6 year old sons underwear! :eek:
Full video would be preferable, followed by time lapse, and lastly blinking. But blinking is within the reach of anyone with a $20
digital camera, compared to hundreds for video, and ANYTHING that warns you is better than being blissfully unaware.
The keys were just a quick example. Obviously, you'd want to arrange situations so that ONLY he could be responsible for
(whatever), and have NO legit reason for doing (whatever) with it. Oh, and make it tempting, of course, to goad any larceny to
the surface if it's there to begin with. ;)
"Counselling" is where some fruitcake tells you you've got "issues to resolve" and proceeds to get you doped up on
pscyhotropic medications while draining your wallet, all to tell you that you've been lusting after you mother since you were a
child. :p

So I guessed right with the carpet...
Nightstalker, that's a nice example. I played with your two frames a bit.
Attached is the result of a two layer "difference" effect in PSP7. It is easy to see the footprints here. It also allowed me to line
the picture up a fraction better than is possible with the naked eye. White means a difference, pure black means identical.
Note that now the larger change, is harder to see than the really subtle bulk change of the carpet!
A combination of these techniques might be really useful!
By the way, you should save pictures like that as JPEG or PNG as you get much smaller sizes than with a gif.
NBK2000, can we have the ability to upload PNG files? All vaguely new browsers handle them, and the file sizes are much
better if you know what you are doing.
If you or anyone you know is still struggling with the rather old IE6, get a copy of Firefox 0.8 (the latest version of Firebird)
from http://www.mozilla.org/

You can't animate JPEG's like you can with GIF's. :(
Otherwise I would use JPEG because I know JPEG is for photos of real things, GIF for computer graphics and screenshots.
Interesting technique using the Difference in PS7. I'd forgotten that was even there! :o I'll try blinking the carpet again using
this instead, and see how well it works, since I'd be starting with the much better megapixel JPEGs rather than highly lossy GIF
frames. :)
dinkydexy February 26th, 2004, 04:01 PM

"Not just peeping, but all manner of gross, rude, vulgar and bizarre things happen when people think they're not being
watched. Anything from drinking out of your milk carton to jacking off into your food, sniffing your wifes dirty underwear, or
your 6 year old sons underwear! "
I have completely changed my mind about the whole 'family surveillance' issue and I accept that you are right. As I type I am
installing such a surveillance system in my adolescent son's bedroom to see if he masturbates.

Sarcasm only works if you've got skill.
Maybe your posts are just reflections of your stunted capacity for learning? (That's belittling, not sarcasm, FYI).
Obviously you can't differentiate between a non-family member doing "all manner of gross, rude, vulgar and bizarre things" in
your home, and your own family doing this, since I'm sure it's common in your family for your adolescent son to sniff your
wifes panties, as well as masturbating into the underwear of his six year old brother, all while your daughter is on her knees
waiting for your nut.
So naturally you'd want to document all this family lovin' for sharing with the rest of the online community at alt.incest.porn.
:D
dinkydexy February 27th, 2004, 05:00 AM

Like I said, you need counselling.

I'm not the one who is "installing such a surveillance system in my adolescent son's bedroom to see if he masturbates.".
:eek:
No doubt leading to your own "little" ;) session. :p

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Self-contained Recirculating Drill Bit Cooling System
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View Full Version : Self-contained Recirculating Drill Bit Cooling System
nbk2000 January 25th, 2003, 05:32 AM

During further research into safe cracking, the use of diamond core drill bits came to my attention.
These are hollow tubes that have an arbor on one end, and are crusted with diamonds on the other.
In use, the coring bit grinds a circular hole through ANY material known to man, be it carbide ceramic...titanium hardplate...anything.
While grinding through the material, though, it generates a LOT of heat. This heat has to be carried away, otherwise the drill bit will "burn", destroying the diamonds and the
binder that holds them onto the bit.
The usual means of cooling the bit is to maintain a continuous flow of water on the bit.
While this is easy enough to do while you're working on something in a legit business, it's a little harder to do when drilling into a jewlery store safe in the middle of the night,
there not being many water taps (or drains) available for this purpose.
Also, during normal core drilling with water cooling, the water tends to get flung about by the centrifigual action of the spinning drill bit. This is not only messy, but dangerous,
since standing in a puddle of water while holding an electric drill is not conducive to long life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
So, to alleviate these problems, the idea of a self-contained recirculating cooling system, came to mind.
<img src="http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/Drill_Shield.jpg" alt=" - " />
A bowl (like a mixing bowl) is affixed to the target, using any needed means, and the edges sealed in a watertight fashion. The bottom has been cut out of the bowl, leaving
an open ended hemispherical chamber attached to the target.
The coring bit has a disc (green) attached to it that fits over the arbor, and is held in place by the drill chuck. This disc is just small enough to fit through the open hole of the
bowl.
As the hole is drilled, the fluid flows along the coring bit, where it meets with the disc, and is thrown off to impact on the bowl, where it then flows down to be collected.
Two nipples have been attached to the bowl. The one at the top is a spray nozzle that directs the cooling fluid onto the coring bit. The nipple at the bottom, where the fluid
collects, to be drained off.
The fluid used could be either straight water or, preferably, ethylene glycol or some other non-toxic/non-flammable/non-conductive fluid.
The fluid is drained off as it collects, pulled through a filter to remove debris, then recirculated back via electric pump, onto the coring bit, in a continuous cycle.
The way that the fluid is kept cool is through a heat exchanger attached to a liquid CO2 tank, like that used to carbonate sodas. A small flow of CO2 is continuously released which absorbs the heat from the coolant fluid as it evaporates.
The entire assembly would be fitted onto a small cart, like that used to tote around oxygen tanks, for easy transportation to the scene of the crime.
Because of the near-dry work enviroment that this setup provides for the person using it, the work would progress in a much neater, safer, and possibly faster, manner.
I'm sure someone more mechanically inclined could design a much more compact system that'd slide right over the bit itself.
BoB- January 25th, 2003, 07:53 AM

What about the possibility of using non flammable gas? Nitrogen, Freon, or similar could be blown onto the the bit through a tiny nozzle. Refrigeration gas's arent cheap though,
perhaps you could figure out a way of using CO2 from paintball guns?
nbk2000 January 25th, 2003, 07:59 AM

It has to be a liquid.
The flow of liquid is what carries away the debris that'd other clog up the hole. Also, liquids are much better conductors of heat, and act as lubricanion to increase the effective
speed of the corer.
Though a low boiling point liquid could be useful, if it was non-toxic...etc. Then the coring bit could be continuosly immersed in the fluid, with the bit staying at a constant
temperature as the fluid boiled off. Though it may take a lot of this fluid to achieve the required cooling...
mrloud January 25th, 2003, 09:33 AM

A small radiator like one of <a href="http://www.dangerden.com/mall/radiators.asp" target="_blank">these</a> might be just as effective (as carbon dioxide) and reduce
the cost of construction. If you were still concerned about the cooling fluid getting too hot, you could rig up a heat exchange with a peltier cooler. You'd have to be careful
about freezing the water in your heat exchange though.
[ January 25, 2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: mrloud ]
Al Koholic January 25th, 2003, 11:53 AM

To affix the bowl to the chamber wall, I would say use either a (powerful) magnetic rim that is coated with some silicone sealant so as to provide a tight seal. Barring any gross
jolts, it should hold to the door assuming it is made of a ferrous metal/alloy.
If it is not metal, I believe a healthy portion of cyanoacrylate would solve the problem quite nicely and very quickly. This might even be your best bet for speed and strength of
hold in any case. A lil acetone will remove the bowl at the end of the operation....leave no evidence after all....except the hole and empty safe!
A liquid like trichloroethylene, IE: non-flammable and a BP around 90 degrees C would be perfect assuming one had adequate ventilation. Without good ventilation, you'll be
hard pressed to find something as benign as good 'ole water I believe.
NBK, Im not sure this has to be cart mounted...I think a system of tanks and a pump in a backpack with hoses would be plenty of water.
You could just waltz in, secure the bowl to the target, hook up the coolant feed hose and the drain hose, then turn the pump on (battery or wall socket driven depending on
the layout and logistics of the situation) and start drilling...
Edit: Don't you love how right after you press the post button you think of something better?
Anyway, instead of the pump (which would have just been a little aqarium pump in my mind) why not use compressed gas (CO2) to drive the coolant out through the nozzle
of the sprayer? This would ensure a good supply of coolant and good removal of the drilled waste. Then if one were to seal the opening in the bowl with a flexible/stretchy but
airtight membrane bound to the drill itself the pressure of the input gass and coolant would drive the waste back out of the bowl into a collection tank. You would also have
good control of the flow of coolant and could probably administer it in bursts so as to save on the supply. All this would easily fit in a backpack.
[ January 25, 2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Al Koholic ]

I've seen water cooling systems for cooling people on a hot day. Actually the system was used for those characters at disney land who get really hot under their costume. They
use ice as the way to cool the water. My dad asked them why they don't use dry ice or something, and their answer was it's just not worth it. Some numbers here:
The latent heat of vaporization of carbon dioxide (at 't.p.' whatever that is. Found this on <a href="http://www.concoa.com/frames/technical/gases/carbon.htm)"
target="_blank">http://www.concoa.com/frames/technical/gases/carbon.htm)</a> is 149.6 BTU/lb. Then, the gas heats up and absorbes more heat, 833J/Kg/oC.
The latent heat of fusion of water is about 143 BTU/lb (334000 J/Kg)(http://www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/FACULTY/RHOP/FSE-360/energy.htm)
Then the specific heat capacity of water is 4286J/Kg/oC, which is quite high. Then if the system overheats and you boil the water you get shitloads of heat dissipation as the
latent heat of vaporization of water is over 2.2 million J/Kg (ethylene glycol's is only
854 000J/Kg). This protects your drillbit, but I guess you would have other problems to worry about from the pressure ;-).
As you can see, dry ice and ice have almost the same heat dissipation abilities in terms of their changes of state that would take place, and water is much better afterwards.
Not that you would use dry ice in this application, as it would tend to freeze your water. I'm just saying that water is pretty good for cooling stuff. Ethylene glycol wouldn't be
as good in at least one respect as it's specific heat capacity is 2450J/Kg/oC.
So anyways, I think pumping water through ice cubes would be an easy and effective cooling system.

KISS way:
square or rectangular tray 4"+ deep pushed flush against the safe door (if you can get it under the lip of the bottom of the door all the better), drip squirt of a silicon gun along
the tray-safe join.
Dump water and a sack of ice into the tray, have crimie use a jug to pour a stream of water onto the drill bit. Water runs down the safe door with swarf, over the silicon joint
and into the tray.
Advantages: cheap, very reliable, idiot proof, infinitely variable rate of water application to bit.
Disadavnatges: ideally requires two people, not flash/high tec <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Al Koholic January 25th, 2003, 01:47 PM

And c'mon! Everythings gotta be flashy and high tech!
Energy84 January 25th, 2003, 04:01 PM

If you kept a large volume of coolant flowing over the bit I don't think you'd have to worry about overheating the coolant. If you were still worried about it though I think that
just a small radiator would be enough. You wouldn't need anything too big.
Of course, all this depends upon how thick the safe was and how big of a hole you're trying to bore. Don't forget also that you will need filters on the return lines as there will
be a fair bit of debris being washed out. You could have an initial coarse screen in the actual bowl (NBK's design) then probably a few line filters in parallel, not in series. This
would ensure that if one got clogged, the others would still be there as backup. You might be able to use something along the lines of an oil filter also, but I think that you'd
most likely need a bigger pump to provide the suction.
Although all this stuff would potentially work, I don't think that it would be to practical because you'd have to get all this equipment in without being detected. But I suppose it's
all just theory right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Edit: I forgot to mention also about the actual coolant. Liquid is obviously the only way to go. There is a special coolant used by machinists that looks sort of like thick cream.
It's white with a slight greenish tint to it. It's actually mixed with water at about a 25:1 ratio and protects against rust. I'm not sure about how it affects the B.P. of water, but
I'm sure a quick search will bring the stuff up. IIRC it was "Luke's" brand.
Something else that hasn't been mentioned is how to seal the drill bit so that it won't leak. Best option IMHO would be to get a common sized bit that can be matched up to the
same size as a bearing seal. Then mount the seal to your bowl and slide the bit through the hole. Seals are usually lined with rubber or felt on the inside.
[ January 25, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Energy84 ]

I just got a catalog in front of me with some diamond core drill bits for safe work where they just filled the tubes with a lubricant paste that gets liquid when drilling.

Machiavelli, what's the paste called? How much does it cost and in how big of a tube does it come in?
I suppose cheap toothpaste could possibly be used also if you could find a really cheap source. Plus, it'd be alot nicer to work with a minty smell then a burnt oil smell in the air
:) .
nbk2000 January 26th, 2003, 01:42 AM

Mach, you're probably looking at the same page I looked at. Is it pink wax in the center of the bit? That may work as lubricant, but I don't think a bit of wax is going to keep
the bit cool. And what about if you have to drill multiple holes? Hmm...
The method I described isnt' THAT complicated. A small pump like that used in your car for spraying windshield wiper fluid onto your windshield would be more than adequate
for circulation.
If you used an enclosed poly tank, you could have it filled with crushed dry ice, and circulate the fluid through that (assuming EG). That'd dispense with the CO2 tank and
related dead weight.
If you're anywhere near an outlet (likely), than an electric fan blowing air over a small radiator would likely be sufficient. It all depends on the size of the hole and how thick
the target is.
Some of you may remember from long ago about a discussion on using electrochemical machining to cut through metals. This involves using a conductive fluid (salt water), a
hollow electrode (copper tube), and an electric current (car battery) to "cut" a hole through any electrically conductive material.
For steel, like that used in arty shells, it could drill through at a millimeter a minute, using a car battery. I'm sure with 120 mains available, you'd be able to get a much faster
rate.
Well, using the same principle, only with an electric inverter, you could make a device that'd "cut" a hole through steel safes, unattended, while you keep watch for piggies. A
spring loaded holder keeps the electrode pipe pressed into the target while an electric pump keeps the filtered electrolyte solution flowing through it.
Perhaps the two (diamond core/electromachining) could be combined to make them faster than the two alone could be.
The good thing about electromachining is that it doesn't leave any tool marks that can be traced to a specific tool or bit.
Energy84 January 26th, 2003, 02:33 AM

Electromachining I believe doesn't require lots of applied pressure. Infact, too much pressure will ruin the process as the two metals would arc and join together. I think I have
a book somewhere describing the process. If I can find it tomorrow I'll scan it and post it on the FTP.
Edit: I found the book and scanned the relevant pages. I will be scanning a few more pages out of it later that explain what types of lubricants to use for certain materials/
processes.
<a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/Energy84/Electrical%20Machining%20Processes.pdf" target="_blank">ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/

Hosted%20Images/Energy84/Electrical%20Machining%20Processes.pdf</a>
854KB (Might want to right click and "Save target as...")

Here is a table with regards to cutting fluids.
<a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/Energy84/Cutting%20Fluids.pdf" target="_blank">ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/
Energy84/Cutting%20Fluids.pdf</a>
70KB

If you were to use technique called peck drilling it would make this far easier. This is where you Go in and out, in and out you would only be advancing 3/8" each peck but
every time you pulled out.
It would allow your hole to be filled with fresh coolant.
That would be the ideal method for your bowl method. If you were drilling into the door you could modify a pop bottle or another jug for this.
Also available are other Drill presses that use a magnates to attach to metal surfaces. You could also improvise something using magnetic stands and a hand drill.
There are also CARBIDE, Ceramic, And CBN Tooling to be worht looking into.
vulture January 26th, 2003, 07:02 PM

Since you're already using an electric drill, why not use it as a pump too? With a few "propellors" attached to the drill bit in a closed sphere it could function as a pump and drill
at the same time.
The only problem would be the heat conducted by the drill bit which would also heat up the water in the "pump".
EDIT: To clear things up: the pump sphere should be added to the drill bit as a separate unit in front of the bowl.
[ January 26, 2003, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]
nbk2000 January 26th, 2003, 10:45 PM

There are drill powered pumps, but that'd be massive overkill for the purpose it's intended for. An aquarium pump would be more than adequate.
TC is only 1/3rd as hard as diamond, so would be useless, especially against a type of hardplate that I've seen that has industrial diamonds embedded into it. Only a diamond
can cut a diamond. Ceramics are brittle, and CBN is exotic (read "expensive") and still not capable of penetrating diamond hardplate.
One advantage that ECM has over drilling is that it generates no heat or vibration, which might trigger relockers or alarms, but these sort of sensors are only found on the more
high-end safes.
The setup I described using a car battery doesn't generate enough current to weld the cutting piece to the work. Also, if you maintain a high rate of flow for the electrolyte, that
prevents the cutter from coming in contact with the work since the fluid "floats" the piece.
Anyway you do it, it'd be ideal to have it so that the drill (or ECM) is doing the work while you're keeping watch from elsewhere. An automatic feed or advance is possible, but
would take a bit of investment.
Such a device would greatly increase your safety since you could penetrate the target, set up the drill, then leave the scene of the crime while it cuts through the safe.
If piggies show up, you're NOT there. :)
If no piggies show up, you come back once the device signals it's penetrated, and collect the loot. :D
nbk2000 January 28th, 2003, 01:51 AM

How to drill through hardplate in a safe.
<a href="http://my.execpc.com/~bergsa/s_swiss.htm" target="_blank">http://my.execpc.com/~bergsa/s_swiss.htm</a>
The site has a lot of interesting pictures of old safes.
German supplier of various tools of the trade.
<a href="http://www.lockpick.de/Bohr_Fraes.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lockpick.de/Bohr_Fraes.htm</a>
Safecrackers Penetration Plus Video's
<a href="http://safecrackers.net/" target="_blank">http://safecrackers.net/</a>
5 tape series cost $725 dollars, but covers:
"...everything from Bank Vault doors to Floor safes to High Security Safes. You will see the equipment to use, and how to get through various barriers.
Complete detail openings and drill points for solenoids, relocks, bolts, and fences. Everything you need to know to open these locks, plus at the end of each segment we are
showing you the locks and details."
They even have a RealVideo demo of borescoping a wheel pack. :)
<a href="http://www.safecrackers.net/samples/picwheels.rm" target="_blank">http://www.safecrackers.net/samples/picwheels.rm</a>
<a href="http://www.safecrackers.net/samples/frontview.rm" target="_blank">http://www.safecrackers.net/samples/frontview.rm</a>
<a href="http://www.safecrackers.net/samples/topview.rm" target="_blank">http://www.safecrackers.net/samples/topview.rm</a>
nbk2000 January 30th, 2003, 06:40 AM

I was thinking of other ways that coring bits could be used to attack locks.
In the popular MEDECO brand of lock, the pins and sidebar are protected by small crescents made of hardplate, to prevent them from being drilled.
<img src="http://www.mvmlocks.com/images/med2c.gif" alt=" - " />

Well, if you used a coring bit, it'd eat right through both crescents protecting the vitals of the lock, making it easy to then use a conventional drill bit to drill the cylinder pins to
clear the shear line.
The coring bit would need to be just big enough to slip over the cylinder plug that the key goes into. Less than half an inch depth would clear away the hardplate protection, at
which time you switch to a regular tungsten carbide bit and drill away. :)

Another option for when you have to deal with hard steel is Change the temper; Aneal it. Heat it up in a spot To till Bright Red. From here you have to options Allow is to it to
cool slowly(makes the metal Softer). This will allow you to Dill through the safe with more conventional tooling
The other option is the Heat it up and cooled down so quickly that it makes the steel Harder; and it becomes Brittle; think CO2 Fire extingisher. It is then Struck with A lot force
while still quite cold.
There is another option for you Drill in which you do need Pricey Dia. Tooling and a circulation system. This Tequnique can also be Used on glass:
A Pipe of the Desired Dia for the hole is Chosen. This has a piece of dowel in the end in which you will chuck on to. You will Now apply Grinding Compound or abrasive paste;
you can even get Diamond Abrasive. The Coppper Pipe is then Put on the area where the Abrasive is and Turned on.
How it works: the copper is a Soft metal and the Abrasive is hard. The Abrasive becomes stuck in the end of the Pipe. when the pipe rotates it cuts circular hole. As it runs you
may need to ad a little more pste once in awhile but thats it.
IronMongrel September 27th, 2006, 11:00 AM

It would be very hard to anneal or quench harden something as big as a safe without creating enormous volumes of either steam or CO2, I think its impractical even on a
modest safe, its volume and sheer mass would disipate most of the heat for a long time before you got it red, and quenching wouldn't be rapid for the same reasons.
I use diamond cutters at work on very hard ceramics, I prefer a 36v cordless like this
http://www.hilti.co.uk/holuk/modules/prcat/prca_navigation.jsp?OID=-23846
There are a number of companys that make simple water cooling systems for portable diamond coring, like Armeg, though I'm not sure of the suitability for core drilling of safe
locks.
Id be very interested to hear about the results of any experiments with diamond cores on hard metals, but I'm not wasting mine on them, they're too dear.
BIGdaddy May 15th, 2008, 04:47 PM

A must have for any drilling of safes. Drill point dimensions and instruction's. Enjoy. http://rapidshare.de/files/39092028/safe_drill_point_book.pdf.html

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Grenade
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View Full Version : Grenade
stanfield S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2001, 01:34 PM

A n y o n e h a v e a *REAL* schem a o f a m ilitary grenade in use now in the army ? (for purpose only...)
thanx !
A-BOMB S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2001, 02:45 PM

I'll draw you a diagram a n d s e n d y o u i t .
opps! didn't see that you said real so forget the e-m ail with the drawing.
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y A - B O M B ( e d i t e d S e p tem ber 18, 2001).]

F o u n d a a n i m a t i o n o r a g r e n a d e w o u l d that work?
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb

all interest m e http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/smile.gif
thanx...
a_bab S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2001, 08:21 PM

Hm , I'm VERY lazy for that now, but c'm on, I'll help you with som e l i n k s :
(parce que tu est un franais)
http://www.pacificcoast.net/~dlynn/index.htm
-lots of grenades (pinaples ;-)
http://www.texasmuseum . o r g / g r e n a d e . h t m
-american grenades history
________________________
http://m ove.to/pyrom a n i a
------------------
D a m n, I got a nitro-h e a d a c h e a g a i n . . .
BoB- S e p t e m b e r 1 9th, 2001, 01:42 AM

Military grade grenade system s are carefully machined from s h e e t m e t a l a n d s p r i n g s c u s t o m for the job, its easier to arm
"practice" grenades than to cu stom m anufacture your own.
Y o u c a n f i n d a l o a d o f i m provised ignition systems in th e I m p r o v i s e d M u n i t i o n s H a n d b o o k .
For schems of active use grenades go to the uspto.gov
------------------
T e a m work is essential.
It lets you to b l a m e s o m e o n e e l s e .
stanfield S e p t e m b e r 1 9th, 2001, 07:49 AM

I don't want to m a k e a g r e n a d e , o n l y a s c h e m a http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/smile.gif
If, o ne day, I would like to m a k e t h a t , I ' l l t a k e s o m e d y n a m i t e a n d a f u s e a n d H O P ! the grenade is made... (a little bit of
d y n a m ite...)
a_bab, i already know this page :

http://www.pacificcoast.net/~dlynn/index.htm
thanx...
A-BOMB S e p t e m b e r 1 9th, 2001, 10:36 AM

Any one who want a book i'm creating its about improvized grenade firing devises i'll put it in m y y a h o o b r e i f c a s e s o o .
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb
a s s o o n a s p ossible plz http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/sm ile .gif !
Donutty S e p t e m b e r 1 9th, 2001, 06:12 PM

T h i s m ay be of use to you. It is entitle d 'Funde m e n t a l s o f G r e n a d e s ' a n d c o n t a i n s m a n y d i g a r a m s o f t h e b o d y , f u z e e t c .
http://www24 .brinkster.com/donutty/files/gren.zip
EDIT - GRR! Just try typing the URL into your browser instead!
EDIT #2 - Go to this page instead then click the link:
http://www24 .brinkster.com/donutty/grenpage.html
------------------
...AAGH! It Burns!...
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y D o n u t t y ( e d i t e d S e p t e m ber 19, 2001).]
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y D o n u t t y ( e d i t e d S e p t e m ber 19, 2001).]

T h a t f i l e h e l p l o t s a n d t h e f i l e s g o i n g t o t a k e s o m e tim e get just right.
W hile waiting for the file to be finished
g o h e r e a n d l o o k a t t h e f i l e s I h a v e d o w n l o a d e d f r o m every elses sites
u s e r n a m e : b _bom b 2
password: berrytruck881
http://briefcase.yahoo.com
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y A - B O M B ( e d i t e d S e p tem ber 19, 2001).]
-A- S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2001, 02:29 AM

Stanfield, dynam ite a n d a f u s e ? ? ?
stanfield S e p t e m b e r 2 3rd, 2001, 05:18 PM

yeah ! like in the old time ! http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/sm ile.gif
Machiavelli S e p t e m b e r 2 3rd, 2001, 08:50 PM

Y o u m e a n t h e pre-blasting cap era?
------------------
Give s o m eone a match and he'll feel warm for a few seconds, set him on fire and he'll fee l warm for the rest of his life
cutefix S e p t e m b e r 2 4th, 2001, 02:11 AM

If you want to use dynam ite, then you should need an initiator(blasting cap).It is only in the m ovies that shows that
d y n a m ite explode with a mere fuse.If you use plain fuse then black powder is suitable,I d oubt if your m e t a l c a s e g r e n a d e
could provide the desirable fragment size(or will it be able to break upon explosion with BP),however if your explosive case is
m a d e o f p o t t e r y / c e r a m ic(hardened in a kiln) then that will be possible .
However if you insist on a m etal grenade case You might think of filling it with HMTD,AP and other initiating e x p l o s i v e - y o u d o
not need a fuse.Once you throw and it hit a hard surface it will detonate...but please be careful in filling and handling it,you
m ight becom e the victim of your own creation.It is difficult also to fill with such a touchy explosive like a prim ary...

if yo u fill the grenade with AP, it will de tonate under its own weight !!
Anthony S e p t e m b e r 2 4th, 2001, 03:41 PM

No it won't.
------------------
"Shit happen s. Get a fucking helm et"
a_bab S e p t e m b e r 2 4th, 2001, 05:35 PM

...Unless you'll gonna use few TONS of AP :-)
------------------
D a m n, I got a nitro-h e a d a c h e a g a i n . . .
http://m ove.to/pyrom a n i a
Flying D utchman Novem ber 11th, 2002, 05:38 PM

Oops...looks like the Flying Dutchm an has "flown" himself out of here! <img bord er="0" title="" alt="[W ink]" src="wink.gif" />
<sm all>[ Novem b e r 1 1 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 6 : 1 4 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : n b k 2 0 0 0 ] < / s m all>
smokey D e c e m ber 19th, 2002, 05:44 AM

why not get a thunderclap wrap some nails around it and use a 555tim er with a relay ,12v lighter battery and switch and presto
you have a nasty bit of shit th at is fully programable from micro seconds to weeks
now you can roll it in epoxy glue and then in a dish of sm a l l l e a d s i n k e r s , t h a t s o n e b a d a s s m o f o g r e n a d e m y friend and
should have an efective range of around 15 - 20 feet

How many other, m ore recent, threads on grenades did you skip to dig u p this fossil?
Ever think that, perhaps, the level of sophistica tion of our mem b e r s m a y h a v e a d vanced in the last year?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Cell Phone/GPS Jammers
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View Full Version : Cell Phone/GPS Jammers
PYRO500 September 23rd, 2001, 06:21 AM

<a href="http://www.netline.co.il/new/c-guard.htm" target="_blank">http://www.netline.co.il/new/c-guard.htm</a>
I found this link at powerlab's message board,I think this concept of cell phone jamming is better than others, and could
possibly be improvised with crude transmitters
nbk2000 September 23rd, 2001, 08:16 AM

Ironically I was searching for the very same thing last night. Unfortunately the company doesn't have any prices listed on their
site, they require that you send in a request for a price quote. And they'll probably be asking why you want it, especially after
what's happened.
My reasons would be to prevent any do-gooder interference while doing something I'd rather not have the piggies interuppt
me in the middle of.
We've all heard about how someone does something and gets away, only to have some do-gooder following him while on the
phone to 911 (999 for the brits) till they catch him. A person needs to be able to squash that kind of shit from happening.
The problem with all the various units I've seen so far is very limited range, under 50 yards. That's OK fir inside of a room or
small building, but a larger building, freeway, or rural? Forget it.
Now I KNOW there are military units that can squash for several miles! That would be the shit to be having. You'd have to build
it yourself unless you have enough money to go to russia to buy one ready made.
All the information needed to build one is readily available on the net: Cellular protocols, frequencies, transmission modes,
etc. Construction details for electronic and radio equipment is freely available, especially ham radio.
So, anyone with enough money (think several thousand+) could readily kill all cellular communications for at least a kilometer.
This itself would be a terrorist act in a busy city. Just think of all the phones being used in lower manhatten or tokyo at any
given moment.
The scenario I've envisioned is robbery/kidnap, where you have to prevent any immediate response by the police to distress
calls by passing motorists/pedistrians who witness the job going down.
By having a jammer active at the time, you'd force people to use a landline. This takes time, especially in the country or late
at night when stores are closed, finding a phone then is near impossible.
By the time they did, you're long gone.
You bring the jammer with you naturally. This way, anyone following you won't be able to call the cops and follow you at the
same time. They'll have to break off the persuit to find a phone, meaning the cops won't know where you went to.
So, for a major job that'll net you many thousands of $, it'd be worth the time to build one. Other than that, it's just one more
thing to have to worry about.
------------------
J September 23rd, 2001, 10:24 AM

The problem with carrying it on you is that they could use it to track you down. I suppose it would depend on how long you
were using it for, a massive disruption in mobile comms wouldn't go un-noticed for very long. This might be counter
productive; you'd be discovered because of the jammer!
It shouldn't be too difficult to modify a low powered unit for higher power output. After all, you'd only be changing the RF amp,
not the jamming frequency generator.
------------------
Download the forum archive (http://forumarchive.tripod.com)
PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)
PYRO500 September 23rd, 2001, 03:36 PM

It would take less than several thousand to make one of these, all you need is a few transmitter circuits that transmit on the
cellular datastream (FM signal) and transmitters are easy, making them precise isn't you could probably make a tube amp
really slopply and get near 2 KW! it does not take much for the datastream to get fucked, just some static, I think it is jusk
FSK signalling. also if you did have a transmitter/scanner+downconverter you could possibly hook one to a computer and
transfer calls every witch way and screw the system that would be funny, althoughI don't think much info on the cell data
stream is avalable.
recently I have been working on a cellular downconverter or mixer to bring cellular frequency's down to a freq. that any scanner
can pick up. I came up with two options, use a gilbert cell IF to RF mixer to bring the frequency's down or to use a mar based
circuit, there is a kit that ramsey electronics used to make but they got raided and such kits became illegal. the PDF for the
manual of the converter is online, but I am trying to convert the pic in there to a pcb schematic, this is how far I got with the
help of codeblue,
here is the manual of the scanner converter,
www.ramseyelectronics.com/sitepages/pdf/hmanuals/scn-1-4a.pdf (http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/sitepages/pdf/
hmanuals/scn-1-4a.pdf)
I have a hand drawn bmp of the pcb, it is crappy but might work with some improvements,
codeblue says that it probably needs to be reduced to 88%
------------------
visit my web page at:
[URL=http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/]
Machiavelli September 23rd, 2001, 09:27 PM

If you construct a cheap broadband jammer you could set up several static units which would be triggered eg by time delay, by
remote control using non-jammed channels (eg infrared for line-of-sight or ultrasonic) or simply by wire and depend on these
to cover your whole area of operation.
Yes, the jamming will be noticed very quickly.
But the cops will have no idea what's going on. It will be possible to roughly localize the jammers, but as long as the cops are
busy searching rather small jammers (you might even use some Ham tricks to make direction finding more dificult) and
sorting out the huge mess that is created in a modern city when a major portion of the spectrum goes garbage, you have lots
of time to make your getaway.
For a suitable jammer design I'd focus on spark gap transmitters, they're easy and cheap to build and create lots of
broadband noise. Hook up a powerful trafo and some good car batteries and you can easily get hundreds of kW. No need to
be subtle here.
------------------
Give someone a match and he'll feel warm for a few seconds, set him on fire and he'll feel warm for the rest of his life
PYRO500 September 24th, 2001, 12:06 AM

it is hard to conceal a transmitter, even harder to conceal one that transmits in every band, there are several way's they can
locate you,
1.directional antenna's:
these are sometimes yagi antenna's on a rotating mount but can be strange Higain antenna's mounted in a circle to give
direction information
2.Yagi antennas
these are antenna's that have several elements across a beam to act as reflectors and increase the gain of reception in one
direction. these can be carried on foot by someone, often used to catch cell phone cloners teams of 3 people use radio's to
relay direction findings to eachother and to the station where they pinpoint the area
3.dopplar shift tracking:

The most accurate of the three methods this device is usually mounted on a vehicle and when it is driven around coordinates a
gps system with the dopplar shift of the frequency's pinpointing the target, this system only takes one person to make rapid
direction finding but multiple vehicles can be used in coordination, vehicles with this system have 4 identical antenna's on the
corners of the car at the same hiegth.
How they use direction findings to find you:
1. 2 line intersection, this method requires extremly precise equipment to be accurate and can be something like 2 computer
controled yagi's on building tops or a VERY expensive dopplar shift detector system.
the two sources plot their locations on a map and draw lines to where they picked up the signal, they then know how far it is
from them by finding the length of the hypotinuse of the triagle formed by 2 lines.
2.triagulation they get 3 refrence points and uses less precise equipment and the area where the 3 lins meet is the point, if
the lines don't meet they have a rough estimation of the transmitter there is a triangleular field in the middle that is where the
transmitter lies, almost any direction finding equipment will work for this.
3.another form of triangulation:

same as above but several points are taken instead of just 3.
the best way to conceal a transmitter is to make it directional, then you can make it intermittent and also you can lower the
power and freq range to make it less aparrent
------------------
visit my web page at:
[URL=http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/]

If the transmitter is going to be remote (not with you) then make it so they can't turn it off in any hurry, even if they locate it
really quickly.
Something like locate it at the top of an old chimney stack and cut off any kind of ladder going up as you climb down.
Or encase it in a concrete block with a 3" diameter solid steel rod sticking out of the top as the arial.
Something like this would be quite fun to do, you'd make the news for sure and it'd be unlikely that you'd be caught.
------------------
"Shit happens. Get a fucking helmet"
Ctrl_C September 24th, 2001, 05:23 PM

would it work if you were to intercept the particular freq that the cell phone service you are trying to jam uses, shift it 1/2 a
wavelength out of phase and then retransmit?
you could broadcast the freq from their own towers too. they have very little security aside from cctv which can be taken out
with a rifle.
nbk2000 January 31st, 2003, 12:37 AM

Closely related to cellular jamming is GPS jamming.
Thanks to the prevalence of civilian GPS, it's now possible to use GPS in coordination with cellular to transmit information,
location, and other uses.
Police are now integrating GPS into their systems so HQ knows where all units are at all times.
But, thanks to the good ol' soviets, we now have GPS jammers.
<a href="http://www.ac11.org/gps1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ac11.org/gps1.htm</a>
A Google search on "AviaConversa" pulls up a lot of references to a GPS jammer that they have made available that'll
scramble all signals for 100+kilometers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
'Course, at $40,000, it's not cheap, but it could have it's advantages. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Further searching may reveal a cheaper source of lower range.
Dunkelmann January 31st, 2003, 06:04 AM

This brings another type of jamming to my mind:
In Germany, we have a VLF Transmitter called DCF77 that transmits the official Time throughout the country. It is located in
Mainflingen.
Many official Buildings get their time from that signal,

Railway Stations, Schools, Computer Networks and many more, i think you should have something similiar in your country, too.
The Protocol is very simple, so it should be very easy to build your own Transmitter.
Think of the nice confusion you could create by shifting the time.
or think of alarm systems that turn themselves on and off scheduled by the official time..
dkm
nbk2000 January 31st, 2003, 07:25 AM

Ah...spoofing the time signal to trick the alarm into turning off...nice! :D
This brings to mind using the same tactic to fiddle with the "atomic" clocks that set themselves to the Universal Coordinated
Time via radio signal from the US Naval Observatory, or wherever it is that the central atomic clock is kept.
I'm sure there's got to be some nefarious purpose that could be put to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /
>
Machiavelli January 31st, 2003, 12:49 PM

Just thought this one would fit in nicely:
<a href="http://www.phrack-dont-give-a-shit-about-dmca.org/show.php?p=60&a=13" target="_blank">http://www.phrack-dont-
give-a-shit-about-dmca.org/show.php?p=60&a=13</a>
"Low Cost and Portable GPS Jammer"
Jumala February 1st, 2003, 03:12 AM

Jamming the 77,5 KHz DCF time-signal is no problem. But it will take no effects. Every DCF clock is only syncronised by the
timesignal but not addicted to it. Without the signal it is a normal quarz clock wich fails only a second a month.
I dont know if a own 12 oclock signal can syncronize the clocks new. It would need a powerful transmitter and a large coil
antenna but
it would be an interesting experiment.
Perhaps the original signal can be received stored on a endless tape.
[ February 01, 2003, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: Jumala ]
nbk2000 February 1st, 2003, 03:42 AM

If you were only jamming the signal, then that'd be true, but the clocks set their time by the radio signal, so if the signal is
broadcasting a false time, then the clocks would set themselves to that false time.
The only way I see this not happening would be if there was a button that had to be pushed to synchronize the time, otherwise
it'd be spoofed.
Flake2m February 1st, 2003, 10:40 AM

I have read about about these GPS jammers. They are apparently quite easy to to make. I read that you could extend the
range by putting it in a plane.
GPS systems are used by some armaguard companies to keep track the vehicles. theroetically you could use one of these to
make an armed transpsort dissapear. Go in hard and fast. Jamming the signal, neutralising the crew, taking the cash and
then dissapearing.
If dispatch notices the interference, but gets no calls for help they might think that the GPS system needs to be fixed.
Machiavelli February 1st, 2003, 03:05 PM

Apparently, even military receivers are not that hard to jam:
"10 GPS Vulnerabilities":
<a href="http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/English/MarApr01/adams.asp" target="_blank">http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/
English/MarApr01/adams.asp</a>
Tuatara February 19th, 2003, 05:31 PM

The best place for a cellular jammer would be right next to the base-station. This makes it easy to swamp incoming signals
from phones without requiring too much power from your jammer. This also means you effectively kill the entire cell covered
by that base station. You could even turn the thing on and off remotely by using the pager system.
GPS jamming shouldn't require much effort - the signals coming from the satellites are in the region of -120dBm. The only
tricky thing is that GPS antennas are designed to receive from the sky - usually covering about 135 degrees. This is intended
to reduce multipath interference from buildings, mountains etc. So put your GPS jammer as high as you can.
Flake2m February 21st, 2003, 08:32 AM

Well if wanted to disrupt communication more effectively, then your best bet would be to put the GPS/mobile phone jammer in
a plane and direct the signal downwards. If you had a light aircraft then you could make a fairly powerful jammer.
If this was done during a war and set to the right frequency, you could possibly jam missles and a low flying aircraft. If you flew
over a city with it turned on you could create one helleva lot of chaos.
A jammer in this case; hypothetically would be really effective if it was combined with another attack, such as a bombing,
becuase it would disrupt communications leading to more casaulties.
I_am_the_Black_one April 7th, 2003, 03:25 AM

If you place one in a bunker and had it connected to the steel rods in the concrete Trap the entrances and you have a nice lil
safe place to conduct your err Bizness what ever that may be they cant shut it down if you get caught and if they find your
place of hideing by the time they get thru all the traps you can be long gorne or if you got sighted getting away no radio for
them no help you could also hav a radio set up on a rare freq (im not well versed in radios) and set ur jammer so you can use
only that freq
I am sorry for the lack of grammer and spelling in this message but im in a big hurry
[ April 07, 2003, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: I_am_the_Black_one ]

What sort of range do you expect from aerial(s) embeded deep down in the concrete structure of a bunker?
I_am_the_Black_one April 14th, 2003, 05:28 AM

lol I do not know I must have being drinking when I posted that!!
but they may work for localised jamming or you can run cables off to antannas hidden in the area I honestly do knot know
jelly July 26th, 2003, 01:04 PM

Here is the circuit diagram of a cell phone jammer I have found in a book.
I haven't tried out the jammer and don't know if it works ;)
The jammer is built simply, the components should fit in a matchbox and cost just a few dollars.
A sawtooth generator (on the left) "wobbles" a VCO (the integrated circuit on the right)
(VCO = Voltage Controlled Oscillator... that means the frequency of the output signal
is depending on the amplitude of the input signal).
The frequency of the antenna signal rises from 885 MHz to 950 MHz 1000 times per second
(wobble frequency = 1 KHz) and jams the input stages of the mobile phones nearby.
If the cell phones in your area are working in another frequency range, you
have to use another VCO.
Cell Phone Jammer (http://jelly146.tripod.com/jammer)
Tuatara July 27th, 2003, 07:03 PM

Yup, that'll work. Power is a bit low ( only -8dBm) but add a couple of RF power amps (e.g. MAX 2235) and you'd be able to
jam a decent area.
yt2095 July 28th, 2003, 10:01 AM
This is only half an idea, and MAY/MAYNOT apply to cell fones or the likes.
I seem to remember MANY years ago (old C.B days) that a transmiter broadcasting an external I.F signal could be used to
jam radios typicaly 10.7 Mhz for CB.
6.0Mhz for TV and 455khz (I think that numbers right?) for standard AM radios.
the Zenner diode breakdown voltage was amplified through an Op-Amp (741 or LM301 back then)
the output fed to an FM oscilator to modulate that approx freq a few KCs` either side.
I`m wondering if the same principal may apply to cell fones? as all radio uses an I.F, and I.F range of freq`s are alot cheaper
in terms of wattage per buck, because high freq parts at power are quite expensive (they were back then).
I`m sure if it`s workable someone more knowledgable and up-to-date than me will pick up the ball from here :)
All the best :)
jelly July 28th, 2003, 11:10 AM

Install the jammer into the case of an old cell phone and you will get the antenna for free,
additional space for bigger batteries and RF power amplifiers...
and it lets the jammer look unsuspicious ;)
controlphreak July 28th, 2003, 11:39 AM

I'm going out on a limb here, k? But when I was on my way to the DR, there was a Canadian with me, that was going down
there and for about an hour he was talking to me about cellphones. He is a cellphone engineer and technician. And he said
that on the ones that are using TDMA that is all good and possible what you are talking about. The ones that most people use
now, except there is one thing that people most often forget, and that is that most cellphones are dual band.
Apparently in the early days, the cell phone companies setup many 'nodes' all over the country that are able to pickup
cellphone transmissions, and is what they used to make them work. Now adays we have better cell sites, however, if for any
reason, its newer technology is broken, it will revert to what it was originally based on and use those.
Another thing is that the newer CDMA is very different from the TDMA. CDMA is to explain it plainly very hard to break block or
intercept. When you intercept it in the air, all there is is Static. The onlyw ay to tap is on the hardline connections it sends it
through. Also, it uses a 1024bit cipher, because this is recently outdated Military technology that they are using. The protocol
is at least.
This is all typed from memory and I was in a very sleep depraved state at the time. If any of this is incorrect please let me
know, and I apologize a head of time if this has no relevence.
Oh and bye the way, those Radio Atomic Clocks, they automaticly sync themselves with the tower every 2-3 minutes,a t least
the ones I have do, so you can change the time, but if the real signal ever gets to them, it will change it back. Just an FYI (
we tried it in school once to try and fool the teacher into letting us out early).
controlphreak
vulture July 28th, 2003, 01:10 PM

I know that the US uses a very different cell phone system from Europe. The US uses 1900Mhz and Europe 900 and 1800Mhz.
The european standard is called GSM and is fully digital, automatically switching frequencies depending on bandwith usage/
signal strength.
I remember that people who departed for the US needed a cell phone that could deal with 1900Mhz and the old analog
networks in the US. Could somebody tell me/us what the current situation in the US is, because we have members from all
over the world.
controlphreak March 26th, 2005, 12:18 AM

Here is somethings that were interesting that had to do with this topic, as I have been researching it lately.
http://gbppr.dyndns.org/PROJ/mil/celljam/
and here, she has a nice idea that leads very well into 802.11b technology:
http://www.ladyada.net/techproj/freshair/index.html
controlphreak

controlphreak

controlphreak

There are 4 different bands in use around the world, using digital and analogue. UK analogue has been turned off for a few
years now. You will need to check your area, and use the right jammer for the area.
UK police cars often have DF on them. They have GPS systems for traffic navigation, too. Also, they have switched to a digital
system for voice and data transmission which uses encryption, to stop tea-leafs listening in.
If the jammer was small, you could have several. Keep one with you, put another near to your swap car, and leave another at
the scene. No-one would approach the one at the scene, as they would think it was a bomb (stick wires out of it for an aerial,
or something), you put the one near your swap over point a street away, on a timer perhaps, and the one you are carrying you
just drop out the back of the car after some distance.
I want one purely for use at the cinema, though. Bloody ignorant fools wrecking the film with the Nokia theme, or "Frog on a
motorbike". Twats. A box that made them explode via a short in the Li-ion battery would be best.


controlphreak March 29th, 2005, 02:27 PM

Well ya could knock them out if your could create and EMP, but I have no knowledge in that area as of yet.
The ladies website that i posted, that has different plans on it has one that is quite small, and she calims can be made for
$20 a piece, and have a decent range.
controlphreak

controlphreak

controlphreak
Silentnite March 29th, 2005, 05:55 PM

There is such a thing that is currently selling in the USA called a "World Phone". So maybe it would support all of those
frequencies.
I for one (theoretically of course) think that if your going to bother 'jamming' someone's phone, then just alter a microwave
box into one of those microwave guns. The phone is already giving you cancer, this just might speed it up a little. But not only
do you get the phone, but you also get the jackass driving down the road with his head up his ... phone.
On an alternate and slightly OT note, there was a guy arrested for tapping into the frequency that Burger King uses for its
drive through. Apparently he was telling people that they were too fat, go eat somewhere else, and generally cursing at them.
Quite hillarious.
And if we are talking about jamming radio signals, let us not forget Spaceballs. "He gave us the raspberry!"

frequencies.
Quite hillarious.

frequencies.
Quite hillarious.
ke6ziu May 16th, 2006, 01:32 PM

it is hard to conceal a transmitter, even harder to conceal one that transmits in every band, there are several way's they can
locate you...
Or, you can place an extremely low power device (> 1 W...) right beneath the repeater site. That way, whoever was trying to df
you would have a hell of a time trying to find you...confuses the hell out of everyone!!!
++++
Quoting whole posts is a quick way to banned. Don't repeat the mistake.
NBK
sidhusavi June 20th, 2006, 04:18 AM

well here is one link to a research project conducted by some students,
this ppt presentation clearly gives the circuit diagram of a small-scale GPS jammer
www-ee.eng.buffalo.edu/faculty/paololiu/413/G1005.ppt
nbk2000 June 21st, 2006, 03:15 AM

According to the file, it's not a GPS, but a CDMA cellular phone jammer.
akinrog June 21st, 2006, 05:58 AM

I'm not sure if I should post this here or under EMP thread but actually there is a thread in SM by Jpsmith (who is, I believe, a
member here too) regarding spiral pulse generator. This gadget when slightly modified (i.e. by removing copper foil hoop
around it), can be used as a short range EMP weapon.
He states that he made a mistake to remove the said copper foil hoop and device killed his multimeter caused his computer
(about 2 m away) to reboot and killed its AGP card.
This might be a good option for killing surveillance cams, burglar alarms, nearby cellphones, radios, etc. etc. and might find
several uses ranging from heists to prison breaks. :D Regards
nbk2000 January 30th, 2007, 05:59 AM

Did a recent search, and ran across an article about unintentional GPS jamming interference created by VHF-UHF dish antennas
with 'noisy' pre-amps.
The device was causing complete loss of GPS to a harbor, with a range of more than a kilometer in harbor, and three
kilometers at sea.
The article didn't identify the make directly, but further digging brought up a US Coast Guard advisory that named names. :)
TDP (Tandy Distribution Products) Electronics - MINI STATE Electronic Amplified UHF/VHF TV Antenna - Models 5MS740,
5MS750, 5MS921
Radio Shack Corporation - Long Range Amplified Omni Directional TV Antenna - Model 15-1624
Shakespeare Corporation - SeaWatch - Models 2040/Code Date 02A00, 2050/Code Date 03A00 (Code Dates are found on the
antenna power supply.)
None of these are still manufactured (AFAIK), but shouldn't be very difficult to find used.
Jacks Complete February 2nd, 2007, 08:07 AM

Do a search for "Wavebubble". It's an MIT student's project, it jams anything within 30m, almost regardless of frequency. The
clever part? It detects the transmitter and jams that frequency, rather than being a wideband high power affair, so has better
range than any other packet of cigarette-sized RF jammer!
Actually, I found it's homepage: http://www.ladyada.net/portfolio/2006/index.html
nbk2000 February 2nd, 2007, 09:07 AM

I saw the Wavebubble when it was posted on Hack-a-day.
While it'd work great for cellphones and such, it's useless against GPS, as GPS receivers are passive devices and not
detectable.
Unless you pre-programmed the Wavebubble to the frequency of the GPS, it wouldn't do anything.
The other thing is that the Wavebubble is rather complicated to make, compared to buying an existing OTC device.

Would it not pick up the aerial re-radiation? I suppose it would depend on the sensitivity.
As regards home-brew, you can avoid answering all those tricky questions when you are talking to yourself. And you can save
a fortune, or even make money selling them to those who are after one without similar questions being asked.
InfernoMDM February 14th, 2007, 02:36 PM

Just a thought, but why attack the cellphone? Granted most cops these days probably do go out with a cellphone on hand, but
would it not be possible to look up the repeater channels for the local police, and jam them instead? Hell some systems can
be jammed by simply transmitting, although I know Motorola has some ways to defeat that administratively. I would also think
broadcasting a high enough power signal on the repeaters output could potentially shut down reception by the police in the
area.
If turned on during, or right before a event you could at least gain a few extra minutes.
That being said I don't think any police department really has the resources for tracking down signal easily. I know how damn
difficult it is to track down ELTs and EPERBs in cities, while they are on the move, or even stationary in the woods. Sometimes it
takes several hours even with rough coordinates from the satellite.
nbk2000 February 24th, 2007, 01:49 AM

Another pig tool (http://www.officer.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=34899)that uses GPS:
Slowing the Pursuit
Posted: February 13th, 2007 08:02 PM EDT
Far too often high-speed police chases end in a fiery crash, serious property damage or needless injuries to innocent
bystanders, officers and suspects.
Pursuits are often begun by non-violent misdemeanor offenses such as persons: with expired drivers' licenses; who had too
much to drink and afraid of a DUI charge; carrying contraband; driving a stolen vehicle; or driving an improperly licensed
vehicle.
According to a report for the National Institute of Justice (NIJ), "Police Pursuit: Policies and Training," by Dr. Geoffrey Alpert,
expert on high-speed pursuits at the University of South Carolina, in 40 percent of high-speed pursuits reported, the primary
vehicle resulted in an accident.
"As the number of vehicles involved in police pursuits increases, the likelihood of apprehension and the chance of accidents,
injuries and property damage increases," says Alpert.
The StarChase Pursuit Management System, from StarChase LLC of Virginia Beach, Virginia, enables suspect tagging and
tracking for a more safe and controlled interdiction strategy.
Conceptually, a low-speed pursuit.
System start
The StarChase system concept consists of a projectile attached to the suspect vehicle acting as a tracking device for law
enforcement to ultimately back-off the accelerator and safely control the situation without the dangerous factors hand-in-hand
with high-speed pursuits.
"StarChase is a tagging and tracking technology," says Sean Sawyer, company president. "Our system is designed to forestall
dangerous high-speed pursuits of fleeing vehicles under the principle of if an officer tags it and tracks it, that officer doesn't
have to chase it."
But the StarChase concept doesn't end with high-speed pursuit management. It also can be used for automatic vehicle
location (AVL), anti-theft protection and real-time tracking of assets and targets.
"StarChase's core technology is the firing and tagging of a tracking device to a suspect vehicle through a launching device
installed in the police vehicle's grill," says Sawyer.
The tag contains a miniaturized global positioning system (GPS) module, global system for mobile communications (GSM)
transmitter and built-in lithium battery power supply. It adheres to the suspect vehicle by a very aggressive adhesive that dries
almost immediately.
The tag is targeted by a laser intended to be sighted or lined-up by a joystick-like control within the police vehicle.
The laser-guided tag launches from a safe, less-lethal, compressed air-activated launcher mounted on the police vehicle. Tags
are front-loaded into the dual-barreled launcher for the extra shot at the suspect vehicle when needed.
Installation includes a heavy-duty construction with a small installation footprint designed for over-the-road conditions and fits
most law enforcement vehicles.
Inner workings
The system is similar to an AVL system, however designed for a hostile scenario instead of the friendly confines of a
department's garage or lot.
Suspect tracking technology uses assisted global positioning system (AGPS) techniques utilizing GSM communication
frequencies to transmit a suspect's coordinates.
AGPS is capable of using cellular towers to augment GPS signals. Therefore, tracking continues through typical "dead zones"
between steep urban canyons, amid tall buildings or under leafy canopies that might disrupt the typical GPS signal.
The tag computes its position from GPS satellites which, from the radio transmitter within the tag, transmits that position's
coordinates to a StarChase Control central computer server. The server then displays the tracked suspect's positions in a
typical view like any other GPS readout.
The current version of StarChase has tagged information accessed by the department dispatcher through a secure Internet
portal into the StarChase Control central computer server.
"Security is built into the connection portal and limited only to authorized access," says Sawyer.
StarChase utilizes an extensive 100-percent Internet Protocol (IP) portal for end-to-end law enforcement communication
administrator control. The digital roadmap computer displays real-time suspect/asset location. Security protocols are built into
the vehicle transmissions to the server and the IP connection from the server to the dispatcher.
Affecting the future

As the StarChase system has the potential to be a vital tool for law enforcement, beta testing is in development. The Florida
State Highway Patrol and Los Angeles (California) Police Department (LAPD) are performing field tests beginning early 2007.
"We would like to pair it to some of our license plate recognition technology," says Sgt. Dan Gomez, officer in charge of the
LAPD Tactical Technology Unit. "That technology seems to have the highest likelihood of finding a stolen vehicle, so combining
the two technologies seems to be a good fit."
A common strategy is to have a helicopter communicate suspect ground movements from the air.
"High-speed pursuits in which a helicopter was involved to track the suspect ended successfully in the suspect's apprehension
in, on average, 95 to 98 percent of the cases involved," says Alpert.
However, a helicopter can only track; a potentially dangerous pursuit may still be required.
One more in the tool box

"When this technology was introduced to the department, Chief Bratton recognized it for its potential to give yet another tool
to the officers in the field," says Gomez.
"The end result would be that law enforcement would be able to deploy the device and hopefully slow down in pursuit and be
able to track the suspect."
The system has the potential to impact pursuits, risk management, liability issues and safety concerns for the community,
adds Gomez.
StarChase LLC is a company specializing in tagging and tracking pursuit management solutions for the law enforcement
sector. The privately held company has been in operation since 2001. The StarChase products are patent protected in several
countries, including the United States
"We see the high-speed pursuit as a national issue," says Sawyer, "not only in large urban areas but in all cities around the
country.
"It's a solution so scalable that it fits any police department from the county sheriff to a big city department, from a highway
patrol to federal agencies like border patrol, customs and homeland security. We see StarChase as part of an entire range of
law enforcement tools."
If they're depending on this technology, they'll tag you and back out of visual range, thinking they'll be able to catch up to you
at their leisure.
But, if you are jamming the GPS, they'll have lost visual track of you, giving you a much greater chance of escape. :p
A simple bug sweeper will enable you to tell if one of these has been fitted, and it would be trivial to see it, whereever it was
attached. The easy answer then is to stick it in a slingshot, and fire it at a car you overtake, and then bugger off down a
second route. Finding a car that looked a bit like yours (model and colour match!) would be incredibly entertaining for the
occupiers...
nbk2000 March 1st, 2007, 01:34 AM

Assuming you have the desire to stop, get out, scan, remove (it might be embedded inside the bodywork), and get close
enough to another vehicle to attach it to, while the thing is broadcasting your position up until the moment you pass it off to
someone else.
Or just turn on the jammer and disappear.

I was thinking more of using the jammer/detector to detect the presence of the unit without stopping, and then, if possible,
send the trackers in the wrong direction. If you were alone and driving, then you aren't going to be able to do this, but if you
are in company, you can have your passenger(s) try to reach it.
Has anyone got details on the anti-magnetic systems used by minesweeper ship units to avoid mines detecting them? I'm not
sure if the system stops magnets from sticking, but I know that it stops the magnetic anomoly detection systems from
detecting the presence of a ship overhead, whilst alerting the ship to the presence of a mine.
Hirudinea March 4th, 2007, 06:52 PM

If you want to jam all these different systems why don't you just set up a spark gap transmitter, they were used 100 years
ago, are easy to make (if you know what your doing) and will blot out anything within range, which is they were fazed out
almost 100 years ago.
Has anyone got details on the anti-magnetic systems used by minesweeper ship units to avoid mines detecting them?
Try this link http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/degaussing.htm
grayssk March 7th, 2007, 02:23 PM

Another link from GBPPR, this is their GPS jammer design. The notes section at the bottom may be the most valuable, in fact.
http://gbppr.trighost.org/mil/gps/index.html
Here's more, this one is defeating "burst" tracking GPS:
http://gbppr.trighost.org/mil/track/index.html
(First post, don't murder me)
nbk2000 March 7th, 2007, 10:36 PM

Ah! I used to have that bookmarked, but lost the bookmark. Good job finding it for me. :)
Mr Science April 28th, 2007, 11:41 AM

http://hackerscatalog.com/Products/Jammers/index.html
$180 cell jammer, yet only 20m range. I sure a few mods to it could greatly up its output range.
EDIT- Here are plans for other scanners/jammers, $9.

http://hackerscatalog.com/Products/PlanPackage/CellularGPSJammers/Index.html
Overall, this site has very interesting stuff and I encourage people to look around. But anyways, if I find any of these files
today on demonoid or tracker sites, I'll post.
nbk2000 April 28th, 2007, 01:45 PM

...It can be hided inside cloth pocket or handbag etc. and products and incredible...
They provide no physical address, only a PO box, and no phone-number since they'll call you. :rolleyes:
And they want $200 of my dollars when they can't even build a proper sentence? I'll let someone else buy from them.

The spark gap is also incredibly inefficient, and unless you have a very high powered system, you won't get very far, even
close up. Think about how your FM radio is almost totally uneffected by a thunderstorm. Sure, you can hear the 10,000,000V
discharge a few miles away, but it hardly ruins the song.
You need a transmitter that is narrowband (tuned) and which adapts rapidly to the transmitters in range, within the frequency
range you wish to jam. This is why LadyADA's design can run off batteries for days on jamming cellphones - it only transmits
when it detects something to jam, and it puts all it's power into the right place. More like a sniper than the flamethrower effect
of a sparkgap.
Oddly, I got a call from my folks today, asking about a cell phone jammer! I explained they were illegal, and they said they
already had one, they got it off the internet, but it isn't very good!
Pollsmoor May 1st, 2007, 08:22 AM

The best place for a cellular jammer would be right next to the base-station. This makes it easy to swamp incoming signals
from phones without requiring too much power from your jammer.
You have a point, but... :)
Firstly, if the one tower goes down the other cells will take over, at least on the fringes. Around here the cells are quite close
together (in the cities), so you'd want to take out quite a few.
So, what I would do *grin* is find a high point and beam the jamming signal to all the towers I'd want to kill, one directional
antenna per tower. I'd use the same jamming signal generator and feed that into one RF amplifier per antenna.
Sure, it would take a while to set up, but it's far from the tower so you have all the time you need.
Another thought : each cell tower has a fixed capacity, a certian number of calls it can make at any one time. It should be
possible to build a device to make the maximum number of calls, even if it consists of N stripped cellphones connected to a
PC to "press" the buttons. Around here we strongly suspect that the cell operators disconnect calls after a minute in favour of
new calls when the traffic gets heavy, this way they make more money. Or maybe we're just paranoid. But using N+1
cellphones will effectively prevent anyone else from being connected, and if they are, they'll be dropped after a minute
anyway.
Oh yes, and this device will look just like a normal cellphone to the direction finding equipment, so it should take them longer
to realise that it's a malicious event, and it won't be as easy to trace. I think :rolleyes:
Jacks Complete May 1st, 2007, 11:12 AM

I think there are a few flaws in your plan.
Firstly, you beam the jammer signal at the tower, you won't do much, since it won't swamp the incoming signals from other
directions. It's my opinion that your beam would kill any phones in it's path, but those off to the sides of the beam would be
mostly unaffected. (A microwave engineer could confirm, it's been a long time.)
Secondly, as regards the DDoS attack, you would need N+1 cellphones, which would cost a fortune in fees, etc. and phones.
Even buying them secondhand would be daft.
Thirdly, the attack would be noticed rapidly, since the UIDs of the phones would always be the same. This would be even more
obvious if the phones had faked or invalid SIM cards in them.
The best idea would be to determine the exact frequencies of each band, and use a high number of tunable transmitter
systems to spoof the transmissions of a real phone. This would use more of the cell towers resources, as you could hand it
fake and hard to checksum IDs, so increasing the time taken per event, and reduce the number of transmitters you require.
Using the data stream from a PC would allow you far more flexibility, too, so a change in the protocols or data structures
wouldn't be able to stop your attack.
Probably the easiest way to deny mobile phone servie in the town and country would be to map out where the towers are, and
simply physically attack them just before you need the DoS. I'd suggest ewaring your lead underpants and sticking foil or
something else conductive over the microwave heads facing the way you want to 'jam'.
nbk2000 May 1st, 2007, 03:22 PM

I have a paper that describes a DDos against the cellular network that is geographically targetable.
By using broadband connections ('bots) to send SMS messages over the internet to a large percentage of phone numbers in
the target area, you fill up all the available call slots, making it nearly impossible for voice calls to get a dial-tone. :)
Only complication is that you need to know the majority of cellphone numbers in the target area. :(
Might be possible to get such information from the cellular network itself, since every phone broadcasts its ID to the network.
Fourfifth May 1st, 2007, 07:12 PM

Hi there, I have read reports that this following jammer works, go to the url on the image for more info:
Edit, pic too big
http://www.imagecage.com/files/1/index5.gif heres the link instead
imported__Jim May 1st, 2007, 09:18 PM

mostly unaffected. (A microwave engineer could confirm, it's been a long time.)
These sites today are three-sectored 120 degree/sector sites; place a signal strong enough to degrade the SNR (signal to
noise ratio, and that could be 6 to 10 dB below the other signals) +- 60 degrees from the sector's nominal boresignt and
*your* signal will have done its deed. At 10 dB down a 100 miliWatt signal will work to 'take out' (degrade) a 1 W signal
enough to potentially cause the BER (bit error rate) to become high enough on a digital/TDMA call that the 'switch' will release
it.
The AT&T Wireless Services 800 MHz cell system here locally was aligned as a 60/180/300 system and the old 'Bell' (wireline
carrier) 800 MHz system was aligned as a 0/120/240 system; ATTWS had a 'flat' on the south sector and Southwestern Bell
Mobile Systems had their 'flat' on the north.
Full disclosure: Former cellular RF design eng here.
HIM May 2nd, 2007, 02:30 AM

While at work searching for high speed coax, I ran across this company: http://www.antennasystems.com/.
A problem with the last link...The fun toys, they only sell to Federal Govt Agencies. But they do advertise that they have
"Solutions for Homeland Security.
Pollsmoor May 2nd, 2007, 02:18 PM

:eek:
mostly unaffected.
Your beam would be directional, but the receiving antenna is omnidirectional, it has to be. You beam enough power in there,
you *will* swamp the front end.
Secondly, as regards the DDoS attack, you would need N+1 cellphones, which would cost a fortune in fees, etc. and phones.
Even buying them secondhand would be daft.
Idunno, cellphones seem to be getting really cheap and available and I'm not even in what can be regarded as a first world
country.
Also, I don't think N is all that big (would like to know though).
I can get a SIM card for less than, actually, I can get about three for the price of a beer in a bar. They're prepaid, so you still
have to buy the airtime, but sheesh, compared to RF amplifiers and specialised electronics it's cheep :-)
Thirdly, the attack would be noticed rapidly, since the UIDs of the phones would always be the same. This would be even more
obvious if the phones had faked or invalid SIM cards in them.
But would the cell company be on the lookout for this? As far as they can see, it's just a whole bunch of people calling in.
You are after all trying to prevent a third party from getting a connection, and how is he going to report the fault, phone them?
*grin*
By using broadband connections ('bots) to send SMS messages over the internet to a large percentage of phone numbers in
the target area, you fill up all the available call slots, making it nearly impossible for voice calls to get a dial-tone.
Now *that's* clever! Use someone else's phone to ddos. I like it.
nbk2000 May 2nd, 2007, 02:25 PM

Found the website detailing the SMS DDoS attack:
http://www.smsanalysis.org/
imported__Jim May 3rd, 2007, 10:47 PM

:eek:
But would the cell company be on the lookout for this?
Yeah; ever since the ESN cloning days of analog cellular there are 'algorithms' that run in the 'switch' (literally, the 'switching'
computer that sets up, supervises and 'bills' the mobile calls) that look at 'system access' (when you place or make a call on
the setup or control channel) - whether that access is simultaneous, using the same SIM/ESN but different sector/different cell/
same cell/etc - and it spits out on a report that the 'revenue assurance' boys look at ... most times the subsequent (other
than the first attempt by a certain ESN) will simply be rejected (by the Ericsson switches anyway from what I recall.)
Gumby May 13th, 2007, 05:29 AM

If you wanted to broadcast from the air small weather ballons would do the trick. Granted you've have no control where the
wind blew them, but if they had a great enough range it wouldn't matter much.
nbk2000 May 13th, 2007, 07:03 AM

That's where a ground tether comes in handy. Keeps 'em from drifting away. ;)
nbk2000 July 17th, 2007, 11:53 AM

A link to (mostly) chinese manufacturers selling GPS and Cellular jammers and related devices:
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/GPS_Jammer.html
akinrog December 5th, 2007, 05:32 PM

A few days ago, I ran across the Phrack Magazine article giving details of a homemade GPS jammer.
This device raises concerns of even military security experts, because military GPS devices have to acquire civilian GPS signal
before acquiring military (i.e. precision) GPS signal.
Anyway here's the link:

http://www.phrack.com/issues.html?issue=60&id=13#article
and text-only version
http://www.phrack.org/archives/60/p60-0x0d.txt
By copying and pasting the last part of the article, you can also obtain gzipped version of a poscript file containing schematics
of the device.
In addition, you may also check out this handmade GPS GMS tracking device.
http://www.navigadget.com/index.php/2007/07/16/build-your-own-gsm-gps-tracking-device/
The chip / module mentioned in the article is so exiting, the sky is the limit for the things you can do with it.
Since it has capability to connect to a camera, it may even be applied to telesniper idea of NBK. :D
Only downside is you need a GSM SIM card, which might mean paper trail depending on the country. Regards.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Police detector
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3rd Strike June 26th, 2002, 12:06 AM

anyone have any ideas of something you could use to detect police much like a fuzz buster...for putting in your pocket when
walking around..maybe let it scan for police chatter on their frequency within reasonable range or something like that....any
ideas would be helpful

it suck to count on such a device, then have a moment where you are doing something illegal, and johnnie law has his radio
turned off :)
PYRO500 June 26th, 2002, 04:04 AM

nah, they ALWAYS have their radios on wether or not they are using them. their radios have squelch control on them and most
are just fm either in the low band region, somewhere around 400 mhz or are on uhf near the 800s the problem withdetecting
chatter on the radio is that you'd need a very selecticve radio with sensitivity to a narrow field of signal strength and frequency
that is hard to discriminate from background noise due to intermod and other radio transmitters now you could use a sensitive
recever that would listen to the offset frequency when their double superhetrodine recevers receve a message they interfere
with a certain frequency above and below the actual frequency the recever was tuned to witch is all determined on the IF
frequency the radio recever works on. this type of system would over come some difficulties with anti scanning tones witch are
a bunch of static broadcast on trunked(systems that use one radio that switches between frequencyes every broadcast)
systems that keep you from scanning through the channels automaticaly (although there are now scanners that can track
these services) this type or recever even if made very carfully ould only have a range less than maybe 25 yards.
nbk2000 June 26th, 2002, 09:42 AM

I've thought about using RFID tags to mark police vehicles for the purpose of detecting an approaching piggie. It wouldn't
detect the individual pig, but the car he (almost) never leaves. If you can detect the cop car, you've detected the cop.
Tagging would only work if you could get the majority of vehicles in the police fleet. This is feasible in a small town that only
has a dozen or so cop cars, but LA or NY...forget it.
It may also be possible to passively detect a police car. Most US cop cars are crown victorias. If you can detect a signal that is
unique to crown vics, then you could detect them. Perhaps an RF signal genereated by the ignition system or such. Just such a
system was used by USAF spectre gunships to detect VC truck convoys in vietnam.
Cop cars also have light bars that generate a certain pattern of light pulses that could be monitored by a photo-optic circuit.
These lights are unique to each service (police, sheriff, highway and state patrol, fire, ambulance, etc). This works only if
they're using their lights, but they use lights much more often than siren to clear the way.
Maybe some form of AI detection to visually detect, via cameras, the unique coloration schemes of a police vehicle and sound
warning of their approach.
Naturally, none of these will detect the undercovers, off-duty, detectives, or SWAT (most likely). But every bit helps, eh? <img
Your detector needs to be far enough away to allow you sufficent time to react to the warning, and cover the most likely (if not
all) routes of piggie approach.
PYRO500 June 26th, 2002, 10:40 AM

In fact you cna detect the strobes that are in light bars, they work off an inverter sicruit and make a similar wine on sensitive
radios that can receve am/ssb. you could also set a camera withb special software to recognize not just bright pules of light but
sequential pulses of light. as for the ignition detection I think that may be kind of hard to diferentiate as almost all cars have
noise that comes from the alternator/fuel pump and ignition system. very few of them are diffrent from eachother except a
few crappy cars that their fuel pumps make more noise on the radio than usual. I think it would be awsome if they started
installing onstar like systems in the cars and you could obtain pirate hacked hardware that allows you to receive what they are
supposed to receive, in effect using their own system against them. The best bet now is to tag the cars. since the vehicles
undergo regular inspection all someone would need to do is have a mechanic on the inside that could plant the low power
radio transmitter somewhere say inside a tail light bulb. such a device would be able to be powered almost indefinitely off of
the car's battery with no drain on the battery when not inuse and also not showing up amongst the other vehicles that are
active. It is also possible that you could even detect the proximity with fair accuracy with a simple signal strength meter
3rd Strike June 26th, 2002, 08:28 PM

thanks for the ideas guys thoes are helpful...the GPS onstar type tracking would kick ass... i should give the force the idea for
installing it around here just for the purpose it would be easier to track them...you could have alot of fun with that kinda
stuff... youd be an invisible enemy, everytime they showed up youd be gone
endotherm June 26th, 2002, 08:38 PM

If you live in a relatively small town, just check the frequencies they use, i was able to get a list of frequencies and the ten-
codes of my local police department, down to the precints! I can just listen on my scanner to the frequncy of the precint that
has control over my district, and if i ever hear them say they are coming to where I am, i can just get the fuck out of there. It
actually works and i have used this before after committing vandalism and after setting off big charges, i know their gonna be
here, before they do! For the last couple of big charges i set off, i always listen to the scanner right afterwards, noone called
the cops though, but if they did i would've known. But it works, anytime a officer is going anywhere in my district, it is said over
the same frequency.
PYRO500 June 26th, 2002, 09:04 PM

the only problem is with scanners they often have trunked radio systems with anti scanning tones making it almost impossible
to get the whole message. Also many police/law enforcement orginizations have several possible systems that they may use
along with special forces and poliece that ride bikes/walk the streets they may use an entirely diffrent radio system and often
the police have tactical channels that they use when going for a bust or operation that is possibly digitaly scrambled or
encrypted to avoid scanner use. i have also seen cops around here using cell phones that they have donated to the
department, and they aren't the easy to listen analog ones either.
Fl4PP4W0k June 27th, 2002, 10:51 AM

Well, Voice radio is only one method of communication used by police.
The preferred method is in-car data. Wether it be a system that uses the MDT4800, RDLAP192 or some older style POCSAG or
FLEX data protocol - these can ALL be collected and deciphered with the use of appropriate equipment.
Information that is sensitive usually is NOT passed over voice, even 800mhz trunked networks. I have a few radio-data setups
going, and the amount of shit thats crammed over the airwaves is ASTOUNDING!!!
Credit card numbers, social security and a plethora of other juicy tidbits.
The cops in australia Voice channels operate on the UHF465 band, using CTCSS encoding. This is just a technique to prevent
un-authorised communication... but it doesnt work to well :D
Im sure, If someone had the appropriate equipment *cough* then interception and retransmission of signals could be
acheived.
Anways, back to the topic.

Many of the newer MDT systems incorporated into vehicles such as squad cars, ambulance and fire include a position indicator
of some sort. This is to assist dispatch in determining which units are in range of a certain job, ofcourse.
As this signal is transmitted UNENCRYPTED back to dispatch, It would not be OVERLY hard to compile a peice of code that
detected cops in your vicinity.
A program could latch onto MDT Decoding software, interface with your handheld GPS and determine the nearest pig in your
area. This could, with time, be constructed into a City Map GUI and have a pretty picture with little dots flying all over the place
:)
Although, this isnt going to be happening any time soon - and by the time someone writes such an application the cops would
have wisened up and used SOME type of encryption.
If anyone is interested in data decoding off the airwaves, give us a yelp.
Catchyas,
rob

I thought onstar only transmits your position when you call into the call center, not on a continuous basis...

"Cop cars also have light bars that generate a certain pattern of light pulses that could be monitored by a photo-optic circuit"
Oh yeah... about that pulsed light signal - is that not for changing traffic lights or something?
If so, the range would be CRAP!! Id say about 25m line of sight at most... and if a cop can see you at 25m clear view - ur
pretty much fucked. They can atleast get a decent ID.
Also, in monitoring the spurious emmisions of the IF in the radios, the range would be REALLY limited. And, due to the low
power of these signals, in the city (I presume many of you - who are worried about cops - live in one <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) all the pager\cell-phone intermod would reak havoc.
Oh, Most of the (halfway) decent UHF HTs ive seen are Triple Conversion... Most double conversions are VHF, Old WideBand
scanners and Amateur gear.

Have you ever monitored an MDT ?
These things report in like every minute or so.
(of course it depends on the setup)

If anyone remembers i had a post such as this on the old forum, But it was a graphic display of the cops , it would use a gps
reciver , to get the squad cars gps transmission, and then you would enter in your gps x,y .. and then it would show where
each cops is how close/far from you. dont know if anyone remembers this.. but yea... maybe something more along the lines
of this would be better to get a whole lil map of cars, so you know where to run to and what not...
----- well dependin' on what ya used it for, a car based unit might have better reciveing due to the fact you could use way
better antenna, but if i was to use these i think i would have the handheld due to me a) no car b) way to easy to run from pigs
around here
J June 27th, 2002, 05:59 PM

Fl4PP4W0k, what sort of equipment would a person use to monitor the in car data systems? I presume a scanner with a
connection direct to the discriminator, and then connect this to a soundcard and use some software to decode the data?
PYRO500 June 27th, 2002, 08:40 PM

I like the idea of using a doppler shift antenna system that uses 5 antennas on you car to determine the distance and
direction a signal is from you.

"But it was a graphic display of the cops , it would use a gps reciver , to get the squad cars gps transmission, and then you
would enter in your gps x,y"
Uhm... Use a GPS reciever to get the cars GPS transmission :rolleyes:
Err.. the systems ive seen do NOT transmit to satellite. That would be the teeniest bit pricey, and technically complicated.
And anyway.... to be able to INTERCEPT! a satellite bound signal? Riiiite...

The systems that ive seen\read about, use a relay kind of thing. nice 'n cheap. Theres a standard GPS reciever, serial
interface with MDT. Sends a lat\long co ord. to dispatch. Dispatch's computer places this signal on the big 'ol map... and
everyones happy.
To monitor these signals, either using a discriminator tap\soundcard method or serial interface works... but serial is the most
accurate. Im not aware of a decent RDLAP19.2 decoder, but Ive got some MDT4800 programs that work well.
For soundcard, MDTMON is my choice. For serial interface (4 level FSK) id choose MDTW1234 (this runs on my 486 :D )
A method of testing the distance... hmmm.

Well, all squad cars use standard fixed power transmiters. A directional YAGI or mebbe a parabolic would be up to the task....
when coupled with a sensitive signal meter.
This would have the disadvantage of being affected greatly by reflection, obstruction and interference :(
I still like the MDT\GUI idea...
EDIT: POSTED HALF WAY THRU :mad:

edit: i dont type well when wasted :)
[ June 28, 2002, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Fl4PP4W0k ]
nbk2000 June 28th, 2002, 09:40 AM

I've read that there are detectors above the traffic lights of major intersections that will turn the lights green for fire/
ambulance/police when they detect the specific light pulse pattern of their lightbars.
Now, the detector for this may only have less than 50 yards range, but if your detector has a transmitter range of a mile or
more, than you simply put the detector a mile down the road and it'll detect the passing of any piggy cars at least one minute
in advance of their arriving on your scene.
Even better would be to connect your detector to some device that'll delay/prevent them from reaching you while giving you
warning. Perhaps a small projector that'll launch a spike strip across the road or scatter hundreds of caltrops. This delays
them, buying you time to escape before they're anywhere near the scene.
And you don't need to be able to understand anything being transmitted by the pigs MDTs or radio, just simply know of their
presence and approximate distance. Direction would be nice too, but not as important as presence.
Also, having an antenna farm on top of your car would draw attention too. A trick used by the people who tracked down Kevin
Mitnick was to hide the dipole antennas inside of fluorescent light bulb boxes on a rack on top of a van so it just looks like
maintainence supplies.
Perhaps one of those plastic shells used for carrying luggage on top of a car would be useful as a disguise for the antenna/s.

Or a plumbing van... chunks of 'o so useful PVC obscuring antennas.
What if the cops only used the little strobe setup when there was a red light :confused: , then it would be a little tricky.
And do all countries cops do this? Im sure they would, but any info?
Also, whats the point in shredding the shit thru some pigs tires, if their not headed towards you?
If they just passing by, and their tyres fly off the car - they might be thinkin sumfin fishy's going on...
Ofcourse, a fucked over squad cars a good one - but needlessly allerting to ur presence? If they WERE following a report,or
heading straight towards you\getaway route - THEN shredded tyres would be on the agenda.
If you truly want a pig-free job... then you need planning.

Choose a place thats difficult to find by road... or block off obvious road access (leave your own route :D )
Do a little test.... report a similar crime in that area 911 or whatever, then listen in on your scanner. Find out how long it takes
the pigs.
Do this a few times in various areas.... to get an idea of response times. Then you know wot u gotta work with.
Currently, I am building a 465MHz directional antenna for police data work... Its a VERY fucking simple design, If anyones
interested. (an 800MHz one is on the horizon)
l8r,
rob
nbk2000 June 29th, 2002, 10:05 AM

As far as I know, the moment the cops turn on their lights, the red light thing is activated, always.

Ohk...
In that case, If the cops were trying to be subtle *cough*, then the optic-detector method wouldnt be appropriate. On the
otherhand, it would prevent the...arousal...of cops that werent on ur tail.
IDEA!!!
I say someone goes and steals a traffic light :D
If theres a sensor there, harvest the little bastard and use the light as a funky lamp fer ur room.
Find out what exactly it detects... and enhance the sensetivity -lenses etc..- to make it usefull for this application.
l8r,
rob

yoOo why is it you would just would like to detect lights? i understand why, but its useless if there lights are not on... So why
not just got with any of the cars id/gps signal if any..thats what im tryin' to do, is use the cops gps, to be displayed on an lcd
screen.. yoOo rob, im intrested in data-decoding airwaves... hit me up at rob600s180@aol.com if ya dont mind . thanks...
yo,Fl4PP4W0k , where can i find more information about DDI? thanks man
[ July 01, 2002, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: AfterRain ]
panthatar July 5th, 2002, 12:33 PM

just a thought but i was reading some material a way back about licence plate identification used bye companys for security
boom gates u could apply this bye making ya own basic system that digitizes the pic then ignors the back round except for the
number plate from this the data could be turned into a database enetry and after few weeks to a couple of months u would
have all the cop cars in ya area profiles even the un marked ones and even add ones of suspicious nature that are always
around the cop station then for the early warning detection side of things u just need a camera set up in the main car access
points to the area u r in and set them so i get good warning the system would search the database then if its a pig boom u
got him and u r warned bye a pager or sms even a pre recorded message that rings ya mobil phone number the good part
about this system is that it could be done for less then 10,000$ and would be one hell of a tool to seel to crims and u could
market it legitimatly as a security system for buisnesses so it would be legal but like every thing it has a second use
john_smith July 22nd, 2002, 01:13 AM

I wonder if the abovementioned plate identification devices could handle a car blasting through at 60+ mph.
UmInAsHoE March 27th, 2005, 12:32 PM

how would someone go about recieving MDT signals, and decoding them? i.e what equipment, i would like to try this out in my
area.

area.

area.
john_smith April 18th, 2005, 08:45 AM

How abot a modified Radar Detector Detector (RDD)? AFAIK these devices work by sending out a high-powered signal pulse on
the radar frequency that the radar detectors are built for, and then detect the "echo" from the RD's tuned circuit. I've also
heard of similar devices being used in countries like Germany that have "TV and Radio Tax" to detect tax evaders, so
probably it'd be possible to build one for police radio frequencies...



Agreed. A "cop detector" would be fun. If you lived down a single access road, either out in the country or in one of the fucking
silly town-planner-designed ghetto estates with a single entry/exit for over two hundred houses, you could set it up at the
farthest point. When it rings you telling that it just read the word "POLICE" on a car coming down the road, you are at least
aware.
Mounting one on your rear dash might be good, in case you miss the guy charging up behind you to check your speed. Any car
with flashing lights should trip it, too.
Store the photo with the plate details, timestamp, number of occupants, etc. too. Work up the MO!
Thinking of which - the detectors on traffic lights are very, very crude. They just detect ANY flash. Try it. Drive towards one at
night, flash your mainbeam lights rapidly, it will change. I do it sometimes. The ones on main roads near fire stations, etc. are
most likely to have them, in my experiance.

aware.

aware.
DimmuJesus April 18th, 2005, 05:48 PM

As I understand it, here in the US the penalty for flashing your lights to change traffic lights is pretty hefty.
I believe that now most of them detect some sort of invisible pulsating IR or such. This being changed of course to avoid
people flashing their lights at traffic sensors, and with all the other lights in Cities they tend to be triggered accidentally. They
sell the devices that police use, even recommending places to hide the device (such as in the glass of fog lights on cars that
have them with no bulbs installed), with an on/off switch mounted inside the car. I will look for the link and if someone else
doesn't beat me too it will post it back here.



You've got to be shitting me! You can get fined for flashing your lights?
Anyway, I think the OCR method is the best. I was trying to get someone to actually develop it, but he had an attack of the
morals on it... I can't think why!
A little system for picking up the lights on planes and helicopters might be useful, too, as you would soon know if the police
helicopter or spotter plane was flying towards you from the anti-collision strobe and the navigation lights. Then you have to get
"shot" of it, but that's a different issue.



DimmuJesus, If they can be hidden behind foglight glass then they aren't IR.
IR doesn't pass through glass, which is why IR devices have plastic lenses.



Lots of cheap aftermarket foglights with shitty plastic lenses out there... Btw does anybody have some info/links about the
RDD type devices used to find those malicious "TV tax evaders"? I've searched but haven't found anything good yet. A good
thing about such a device would be that it could be used for checking suspected unmarked/undercover pig vehicles as well.



You can get scanners that will do it. Just get a high gain aerial, and hook it up to one fo the fancy ones with an LCD screen,
and you can see what people are watching.
You can also do it for monitors. Yes, this has been used for espionage!


Arthis April 19th, 2005, 03:14 PM

Just about the device that turns lights green, they don't have it in france. They just go thru and people are to stop and let
them a path. And I'm quite sure it's the same in some countries around, Spain, Italy, Belgium & Germany.



Arthis, yes, same here, but there is a device that detects the lights. It lets them go faster, since the lights will be on green for
them, and they can just thrash through at speeds they mandate as being unsafe for you, rather than have to drop below the
limit to cross the traffic flow.
IF I lived out in the middle of nowhere, I sure would have a polis detector - in fact, any car with a number plate not on the list
would get flagged up!


Bugger April 19th, 2005, 08:50 PM

Here in New Zealand, motorists also flash their headlights to warn other oncoming motorists of mobile Police speed detector
sites which they have just passed. However, it is perfectly legal, to the chagrin of the Pigs.



They outlawed that here, in a rather cunning way. Using one of the many, many loosely defined laws on the books, they
actually arrested and charged a man for doing just that, for "perverting the course of justice"! How sick is that? The fuckers
made it stick, too...
Like being done for "conspiracy" and nothing else, with persons unknown... :mad:


Silentnite April 20th, 2005, 10:45 AM

Here, we delight in seeing someone else getting pulled over, as it means that we are free to go faster with the pig tied up for
20-30 minutes doing paperwork. But sometimes we delight even more in ruining a pigs profit margin, so we will either tap the
brakes(should we see one ahead) or flash if we just came from a speed trap. We also post sightings on the radio, so cops
don't really get to sting.
Its a fun game of beat-the-laser around here.


cyclonite4 April 20th, 2005, 10:57 AM

The same thing is done here in Australia, and while it's legal, it is looked down upon by pigs and 'boy-scouts'* alike.
*By 'boy-scouts', I mean goodie-two-shoes with nothing better to do than tell the pigs about what others are doing.



Unfortunately not all US cities have the emergency vehicle detector on their traffic signals, I know mine does not. Although I
am 90% sure all emergency vehicles are equipped with said infrared signal.
Here flashing your lights to alert passing motorists to a speed trap or checkpoint of some form or another is prosecuted as an
obstruction of justice case.assuming you're caught.


ke6ziu May 16th, 2006, 01:36 PM

anyone have any ideas of something you could use to detect police much like a fuzz buster...for putting in your pocket when
walking around..maybe let it scan for police chatter on their frequency within reasonable range or something like that....any
ideas would be helpful
I use a dual band vhf/uhf set to CHP when I'm on the freeway. Whenever you monitor their mobile extender, you'll hear a
chirp. That usually means that they're out of the vehicle. If you look at the S Meter, you can get an idea of how far away they
are from you. If the meter is full scale, keep your eyes open. If the meter is only showing s-1, don't worry; but keep your eyes
open nonetheless...
UmInAsHoE May 21st, 2006, 12:00 PM

I been looking around for some time about MDT and police cars and found that in UK there are quite a few boroughs that use
it:
http://www.mobiletrackingsystems.com/customer.htm
also I found a handy text file written for people who want to crack and track the signals:
This program only works for systems built by Motorola using the MDC4800 tranmission protocol
http://rapidshare.de/files/21019609/mot-mdt.txt.html
++++
Is there a particular reason for using the CODE tages like this? Our links are routed through an anonymizer, so the IP's aren't
tracked back to originating from the Forum.
NBK
JakeGallows May 29th, 2006, 12:46 AM

The device that has been repeatedly mentioned on this thread (though some years ago) is known as a Mobile Infrared
Transmitter (MIRT). Essentially it just sends out (sometimes coded) flashes of light that are read by a detector above
streetlights
More information can be found here:
www.themirt.com
www.skyoptics.com/Mirt.htm
www.southernrescue.org/MIRT/MIRT_faq.htm
An image of the MIRT detector mounted above streetlights can be seen as the pointy thing above the streetlight here: http://
www.mycrazyhobby.com/images/home/light.jpg
matix June 24th, 2006, 01:18 PM

Hi.
I have a schematic for scanning mobile phones and as this detects the signal pulses you can modify the signal frequency to
scan for piggies and, if combined with a pocket pc, you could calculate the range and direction and display their location on a
map.
http://www.elektor-electronics.co.uk/Default.aspx?tabid=28&mid=405&ctl=Buy&buy=e025064.pdf&emid=403&art=50661
That link will take you to the place I got the schematics from. For detection you dont need to decrypt the carrier because you
want to just detect the presence of piggy frequencies.
++++++
Corrected all the atrocious grammar and spelling errors. NBK

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Econom ical Explosive Detection
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View Full Version : Economical Explosive Detection
photonic July 3rd, 200 2, 02:35 AM

Several weeks ago my friends and I buried about 1 kg of APAN in a hole in his backyard. W e were going to use it to r e m o v e a
lot of dirt that had wa s h e d u p o n a f e n ce. U nfortunately, I first a ttempt a t detonation it failed and we left to go eat. When I
c a m e b a c k m y friend had dug out the dirt him self and effectivley buried that APAN somewhere never to be found again.
This got m e thinking about if there was a way of detecting explo sives that doesn't require extrem ely com plicated electronics.
S o m ething similar to a m etal detector but for e xplosives. I was thinking that alm o s t a l l e x p l o s i v e s m a d e i n volve nitration and
therefore they m ight all have a sim ilar "signature." For exam ple, maybe all the vapors of nitrate explosives would be
reflective/responsive to a certain wavelength of light. I suppose if this wa s possible it would already be in use for som ething
like mine detection, but it's worth thinking about. All the detection m e t h o d s I ' v e r e a d a b o u t a n a l y z e p a r t i c l e s a n d a r e e x r e m ely
complicated(check ou t <a href="http://www.iontrack.com " target="_blank">http://www.iontrack.com </a> it's am azing). Any
idea s as to the possibilty/practicallity of this?
PYRO500 July 3rd, 200 2, 03:07 AM

well, if you can generate high energy ionizing radiation and have a few dozen grand of equipment you can m a k e a b o m b
detector sim ilar to the ones in airports but I don't think that m any of us have that kind of funding. If you want to find that AN
you'll probab ly eventually notice a really green spot in the area or a dead spot. netal dete ctors are best suited for this job
b e a c u s e m o s t p e o p l e (not all)encase their AN in metal from wha t I've seen.
vulture July 3rd, 200 2, 08:43 AM

Use a hose to shower your garden with s o m ething that changes color when reacting with NH4NO 3. Nitrates indicators are:
Benzyltriphenylphosphoniumchloride <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> , Brucin , Chrom otropicacid
:con fused: , Diphenylamine, Dim ethylphenol, Indol, Nitron, Nixons reage ns, Lung e - r e a g e n s , P h e n a z o n a n d H y d r o q u i n o n e
(hydrochinon ).
The last one is interesting since it can be bought as photochem ical. I don't know what the color change is though.
<sm all>[ July 03, 2002, 07:44 AM: Me ssage edited by: vulture ]</sm all>
Mick July 4th, 200 2, 12:38 PM

i don't get it...
if yo ur friend dug the hole out, then th e charge is going to be in the pile of dirt next to the hole.
i don't understand ho w you "lose" a charge.
if it went in the hole, then logic tells us it must com e b a ck out.
o h , a n d a s f a r a s " E c o n o m ical Explosive Detection" goes, buy a dog.

perferably one thats sm arter then your friends.
<sm all>[ July 04, 2002, 11:40 AM: Me ssage edited by: Mick ]</sm all>

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Shitty low voltage digital timer
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View Full Version : Shitty low voltage digital timer
Hvoroba July 3rd, 2002, 12:27 PM

I just bought this shitty low voltage (1.5V) digital timer and I was trying to hook it up to an electric detonator. I cut off the buzzer and made a hole in the casing for the tw o
wires. Problem is, the voltage is not high enough to light a light bulb or a steel cotton string, both of which can be ignited by a 1.5V current, that is, the voltage supplied to the
buzzer is lower than the total voltage (1.5V).
I thought about tw o solutions to overcome this problem : A) increase the input voltage, w hich didn't work : the LCD screen just show ed some strange shit and the buttons didn't
function, and B) connect an electronic device (whose name I don't know) to the w ires. When the device recieves a low voltage current from circuit A (the timer wires), it closes
circuit B, w hich consists of a high (9V) voltage source and an electronic detonator. Let me draw this for ya.
Electric Detonator
| |
Low voltage | |
Timer------------------Device |High voltage
| |
| |
+ Battery -
But I haven't tried it yet 'cause I don't know how the device is called and where to get it.
Heil Hitler, Mazal Tov.
10fingers July 3rd, 2002, 12:44 PM

Your timer has limited output current. You need to find out the maximum current that you can get from it before the output voltage starts to drop. You could do this by
measuring the resistance of the buzzer or connecting a variable resistor to the output, where the buzzer was connected. Then connect a voltmeter to this also. Start with the
variable resistor set to maximum and slowly reduce the resistance until the output voltage starts to drop. Then remove the resistor and measure it's resistance. Divide 1.5 by the
resistance you get and you will know the max current the device can put out. You also need to know if it's AC or DC. If it's AC you will have to make a rectifier circuit to convert
it to DC to operate a relay. You could then try to find a 1.5 Volt relay which w ill operate on this much current or less. Connect the higher voltage you w ant to sw itch through the
relay contacts. You could also do this with a transistor which would draw much less current than the relay but it's a little more complicated.
[ July 03, 2002, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: 10fingers ]
rikkitikkitavi July 3rd, 2002, 01:09 PM

finding a relay that operates at 1,5V is going to be very difficult, if not impossible.
However w ith a transistor acting like a sw itch controlled by the summer signal can controll a higher current from a 9V battery...
It is not that difficult, basically you need a resistor and one transistor.
All small summers are driven by a AC-square wave signal (easily made w ith the timerchip) , some uses DC and has the driver circuit built in.
The AC-summers usually operates at 1.5-12V, DC at 5V or more so I guess that it is a AC summer (they are cheaper too, and I dont think it is a expensive timer,thus using
cheapest stuff available)
Recitfying with only 1,5V is difficult. The voltage drop over the recitfying diodes is atleast 0.6V , and 0,9V is not enough to safely switch on a transistor.
Anybody having a idea?
input?
/rickard
[ July 03, 2002, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: rikkitikkitavi ]
Anthony July 3rd, 2002, 01:52 PM

Can't you get voltage doubling and tripling rectifiers? I recall something about them being used in valve operated equipment to obtain a high enough plate voltage or
something...
stanfield July 3rd, 2002, 04:29 PM

I personnaly use the Jumala's timer w ho works very w ell...
It cost me about 2 or 3$ to make one.
And w here is Jumala ? He didn't posted here for a long time !
Hvoroba July 4th, 2002, 09:24 AM

You know what? Maybe I'll just use a sparkler instead :)
Seriously speaking, I'll just ask the guy who w orks at the electronics shop for a sw itch. Thanks.
Jumala July 4th, 2002, 11:42 PM

Hallo,
I think I know this type of timer. It works with a single battery and can show temperature or work as timer.
I have this device too, but it is to expensive and to complicated.
You must use a second battery and external equipment like relay.
I believe stanfield is right. Im surprised, the timer I made just for fun w hen I was bored is more useful then I thought.
With stanfields PCB it is easy to make 10 or 20 PCBs at one workstep.
You need only to solder the parts on.
stanfield July 5th, 2002, 04:29 AM

Jumala, if you want I have optimized the typo of your timer at its maximum ! I bought lot of components then I made the timer by 10 or 20 on a PCB, really cheap ! If you got
an another (greater?) timer, send it to me ! (I don't think a better timer is possible :) )
More of that, I bought a book on Radio Control w ith HF module and I uploaded some of it on my site, this is under construction but, have a look because this book is great ! You
could be 300 meter away to detonate everything !
and finally, what do you think of this <a href= "http://stanfield.150m.com/74hc5555.pdf" target= "_blank">TIMER< /a> (EDIT : right click and choose "save as")
see ya !
[ July 05, 2002, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]
Zambosan July 5th, 2002, 11:39 AM

Stanfield, I think I kind of like that chip. 2^24 is an awful lot of ticks to play with; it even opens up the possibility of using an external "can" crystal oscillator running in the tens
of kHz and still having a decent delay time; if you need dependable delay times in different extremes of temperature (winter/summer), you'll really want to do this instead of
using an RC combination with the internal oscillator. The only thing I don't like is the behavior of the Q and /Q outputs; they are asserted (high and low , respectively) upon
reset, and only deassert during the counting sequence. This effectively means that you have to start the counting sequence before you can wire up your charge, which just
makes me nervous. You could use an external flop and a few logic gates to change this by latching the active-low trigger signal into a D-flip flop, wiring it to hard-reset at
"high", using the output of this flop to actually drive the trigger input of the 5555 (or you'll get timing hazards), and combining its output with the Q output in a NOR gate, w hich
will give you a low signal at reset, and go high after the count has completed. But then you've added at least two more SSI/MSI chips, and worst of all increased the complexity
& number of potential points of failure... not good. One word of advice; always put an indicator LED (or two if you're *real* paranoid like me!) on the signal that actually drives
your relay coil or optoisolator gate. At a glance, you should always be able to tell whether the output switch is closed or open. And I'm going to "plug" the International Rectifier
PVN012 devices yet again... these lil' opto-FET bastards turn on quite hard w ith just 15-20 mA, and can handle up to 6 AMPS of DC OR AC at their output! Even though they're
solid state, they look just like a relay at the output... but the energizing current is so low, there's no mechanical parts to freeze up or wear in, they're low profile, and they're at
least as cheap as an electromechanical relay. Oh yeah, and you don't need a snubber diode to protect the coil driving circuit... 'cuz there's no coil. :D
Jumala July 5th, 2002, 09:41 PM

The HCT 5555 chip seems to be similar to 4541 but it has a lot of more programmable times and it can w ork with a crystal.
The HCT works only on TTL level (5 Volts).
I have looked in my parts catalog and found no HCT or CMOS 5555.
Perhaps it is out of production or seldom used.
DeAd August 31st, 2002, 03:31 AM

Hey all here is a picture of my tried and tested 555 timer setup.
<a href="http://members.aol.com/edwashere2/images/img00018.jpg" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/edwashere2/images/img00018.jpg</a>
I'm sure I got a scematic somewhere, but its real simple.
There small enough to fit inside, with pull pin to start cycle.
xoo1246 August 31st, 2002, 06:26 AM

Thease relays could possibly be of some use:
<a href="http://www .elfa.se/images/ct_hires/A11248_1.JPG" target="_blank">http://w ww.elfa.se/images/ct_hires/A11248_1.JPG</a>
It w ill switch at a current and voltage of 10 A, 10 mV.
They cost around 4.5$ each.
megalomania September 1st, 2002, 05:17 AM

Hvoroba, I am not skilled with electronics at all, but about 10 years ago I briefly studied some 'stuff'. Would it be possible to connect the timer to a capictor and then a diode
such that the timer will charge the capictor, and the diode will prevent the discharge until a suitable current is achieved. Zap.
I bought the whole collection of Radio Shack electronic guide books (I am a kew l when it comes to electronics). In fact I have a 555IC timer one, I wonder if there is any good
stuff in that...
xoo1246 September 1st, 2002, 06:10 AM

Ok, so I'm not good at electronics either, but the capacitor will not reach a higher voltage than the output from the speaker, and if you are using a "shitty low voltage timer"
such as this one: <a href= "http://w1.478.telia.com/~ u47802930/timer01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/timer01.jpg</a> ,
that could be .1 volts or less.
Am I right?
Edit: We need to recruit some electronic/computer freaks. And w hen we are at it recruit people who are good at metal works and mechanics too. <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src= "wink.gif" />
[ September 01, 2002, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
PYRO500 September 1st, 2002, 02:24 PM

I have been toying around with an idea lately. The idea involves a camera flash charger two scr's and a few other misc parts.
The device is simply a low voltage triggered circuit, the low voltage from a timer triggers an SCR witch turns on a 1.5V pathw ay for some batteries to run through a camera flash
charger. The camera flash charger continues to charge due to the SCR staying in it's on state until the voltage reaches a high enough point that it passes through a voltage
divider composed of several resistors and into a zener diode. The output of the zener diode is run into the gate of the second SCR w itch in turn triggers the energy in the
capacitor to run through your detonator.
DeAd September 2nd, 2002, 03:35 PM

hey PYRO500 i did something like that with a light sensor attached to the camara flash ready indicator, connected to a relay to activate camara flash. Its kinda like a delay
timer-initiator all in one.
my first question;
Anyone try this setup for an AN prill sandwiched betw een to carbon w afers?
Nitrophuric Aci November 12th, 2003, 03:21 PM

Gentlemen, I have found the answ er you are looking for. Many believe that the idea of a pulse running from the speaker wire of a timer is kew l, nothing could be further from
the truth. The fact of the matter is that this method is by far the simplest timer to develop. The only problem was that no one here knew what component part to use to
connect the speaker wire too. I have found the part and I want everyone here to know. By simply using a three prong silicon controlled rectifier one could easily connect the
speaker w ire to the gate then connect the positive lead of a 9v to the anode and the negative lead to the detonator and finally connecting a standard w ire from the cathode to
directly to the detonator. It is that simple. The only problem is that finding a tree prong silicon controlled rectifier is somewhat more than a trip up to Radio Shack. Now I am
interested in learning how to approach this by using a transistor and a resistor as rickitickitavi was preciously mentioning. That seems perhaps an even simpler method of doing
so and I would like to know how that could be done.
grandyOse November 12th, 2003, 10:03 PM

there are any number of w ays to use a speaker output to trigger another device. The trouble is, there is no universal answer. If you can define the input specifications, output
requirements, and any other constraints (such as extra, external battery or space/weight restrictions) then many forumites (myself included) could come up with a circuit.
I suggest potential circuit designers check out opto-electric isolators and schmitt triggers. Relays, flip-flops, logic gates, and SCRs all have potential for this type of application.
10fingers gave excellent advice about finding your input specifications. Also, you may go further back into the circuit to find a logic state that changes at the alarm time. This
point may be able to source or sink enough current to drive your relay, or may have a high enough impedence not be adversly loaded by your added circuitry. If you are going
to use a low voltage AC speaker signal, it may be amplified for more effective rectification to directly drive a relay.
When using cheap OTC electonic devices, remember they are CHEAP. The power supply w ill supply the manufacture's circuitry and that's about all. Anything added will have to
have it's own pow er source.
Chemical_burn November 13th, 2003, 01:32 AM

hmm 1.5v ot put why not just use a 1.5v lightbulb from a small handheld flashlight the ones that use one AAA battery would work w ouldnt it?.
That is personallt what I w ould use seems to me its the cheapest and easiest way.
Just wondering if anyone though if this too.
PS: please dont flame/ban me just because i mentioned this. The only reason I have mentioned it is because noone else did.
grandyOse November 13th, 2003, 02:01 AM

Chemical_burn; I don't know why you would get banned, but I'm just a bottle washer. I agree; the simplist, cheapest is often the best one. Were you thinking about breaking
the glass bulb on the lamp to allow the filament to burn? Seems reasonable to me. Providing, of course, there is enough heat & temp to get your chemicals reacting. I guess
that's why they invented the experimental technique, eh?

I doubt the cheapy timer will supply enough current for the filament to get hot. Of course, it might, so someone should try it.
If it won't you just need a transistor. You can use any one that is rated for the power that you need. Anything from a few milliamps up to 150+ AMPS! You wire it so that the
middle pin goes to the positive wire from the timer, then run the lead you want to use to the right-hand one and the negative of the battery. Another bit of wire goes from the
positive on the battery to the left-hand side of the transistor.
Technically, they are called the collector, the base, and the emitter. Just look at the diagram you get with your one, and ensure the base goes to the "signal" - your w ire that
used to provide the positive volts to the sounder.
The technical bit is next. If it is an NPN transistor, wire the positive voltage supply (w hich can be the 1.5v battery, or another one if you want) to the emitter. Wire the other leg
(Collector) to the negative side, w hich would include your thing that needs the power. If you used a second battery, wire the negative to the opposite leg to the one you wired
the positive too!
Remember to include the device you are trying to supply, otherw ise you will kill your transistor.
If it is a PNP, w ire the two legs the other w ay round.

Now, hopefully, w hen you trip the timer, the voltage to the base rises, and the current flows from the emitter to the base. You have wired it as a sw itch.
Before wiring this to anything dangerous, wire it to an LED and a current/voltmeter and check it is working properly. Most importantly, for this application, check the leakage
current. It should be tiny, but if not, it could set off an EOD.
Hope this makes sense. If not, try reading a basic transistor tutorial.
EDIT: Read one anyway, it w as a long time ago I had to explain this to anyone, and it might be wrong.
Also, I forgot totally to say that you can also use a zener diode. One way round, it limits the voltage you can put through it, by varying the resistance. The other way round, it
stops it. I forget which way round it is, but if you put a fairly pow erful battery across them, they get really hot and explode. They cost about 5p each, and you want the low est
voltage and power ones you can find. e.g. Maplin have 2.7 volt .5 watt ones. Whack a 12V battery across these, and they go bang!
Another edit: Thinking about the speaker pulse, you could record a blank CD or tape with silence on it for however long you want your delay (or wind to the right place) and
then hit play. When it reaches the thrash metal (or a sine wave) it "plays" it through the device on the end of the speaker w ire, regardless of if it is a diode or a speaker, or a
squib. A 20W RMS system turned up loud should do it. Beware of speaker clicks w hen hitting play, and static. You could also wire it so that the stereo channels played at
different times, and set off two devices at different times, or at the same time, at the ends of tw o different bits of wire.
Thoughts?
Electronitro September 10th, 2006, 11:09 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that even if the alarm itself may be 1.5v that does not necessarily mean that that output from the speaker wire is 1.5v. It may just mean
that the overall output is 1.5 and even with the lightbulbs in lieu of a detonator, it take at least an exact 1.5 to excite the filament.
Jacks Complete, in response to your answ er I have tried and tried to activate the ignitor with simply using the npn and pnp transistor types as a sw itch/amplifier and a 9v
battery, no matter which wire I put w here it just does not seem to generate 1.5v. And I dont believe they sell SCR's at radio shack anymore. The only other possibility for a
simple timer like that would be some course of a low voltage relay but I w ouldnt even know where to begin. Thoughts?
stupid939 September 14th, 2006, 12:58 AM

I found this site aw hile ago and I thought that the radio controlled switch from a cordless telephone is interensting. I tried it, and bought everything (was a little more than a
dollar for me), but I didn't understand the gain part. Cordless phones usually put out about ~1 volt, and with this circuit, you can boost it up to around 5 volts to switch a relay.
This should work w ith a timer also, but you may have to change a few things.
http://ww w.angelfire.com/80s/sixmhz/rcphone.html
(You may have to copy and paste)
This would be fairly simple, but you have to have a somewhat intermediate grasp of the electronic theories. Someone on this forum has to know about electronics, so could
someone help me (us) with the gain?
By the way, this guy is a dumpster diver, and you can find some pretty good stuff in the trash.
Dr. Chaos October 7th, 2006, 09:54 PM

With all the CSI stuff they can do now , I don't like for my devices to have any personal touches. A nice solution is to use one of those cheap digital alarm clocks with a battery
back-up. It can be used with or w ithout AC power, can provide up to twenty four hour delay, and when skillfully placed, will often be overlooked by investigators since they are
such a common household item. Use small gage magnet wires hooked in parallel with the speaker. Use the magnet wires to run to the device. For an initiator I like an old time
one shot camera flash bulb with the protective plastic coated removed. It is not necessary or desirable to break the glass part of the bulb, the sudden heat from the burning
magnesium w ool inside the bulb will reliably shatter the glass envelope to ignite the primary. I strongly recommend a "field splice" in one of the magnet wires to assure the
circuit is not energized at the time it is set up (remember the alarm speaker is still connected so as to give an audible check that all power is off). Be careful when in cold and/or
dry environments, these bulbs are sensitive enough to be set off by static electricity. Always dry run the whole set-up (sans the charges) for quality assurance and safety.
oddreverie February 9th, 2007, 12:03 PM

Research silicon controller rectifiers (SCR).
Current is what you have to watch. You w ant at least 2.5 Amperes for nichrome w ire of 31 gauge. 1.5 Amperes for nichrome wire of 36 gauge and 0.75 Amperes for nichrome
wire of 40 gauge.
SCR's are very easy to hook up. They have three terminals power, ground and trigger
from mouser:
part #511-X0202MA SCRs 1.25 Amp 600 Volt cost $0.30 good for 40 gauge w ire
511-TYN804 SCRs 4.0 Amp 800 Volt cost $0.84 good for 31 gauge wire
sv_sniper February 13th, 2007, 06:24 PM

In this case, I think the low-voltage (1.5V) is unable to drive an electrical igniter. You need another pow er source like 6V or 12V.
The beeper output of the low-voltage part is good to turn on a small transistor like 100mW. Use this 100mW to turn on a larger transistor (500mW or 1W) or a relay. Then
connect your electric igniter as the load of larger transistor or use the relay as a power switch for the igniter.
You might also need some other circuits to guarantee that once the transistors/relay were turned on, they remain on. Otherwise, when the igniter draw s a lot of current, the
voltage drop on transistors/relay could shut them off and cause unsuccessful ignition.
Just my $.02

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Motion detector?
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View Full Version : Motion detector?
AfterRain July 9th, 200 2, 01:01 AM

I was looking at this place , and there is a m otion detector in the corner of this place to th e left , b ut about 10 to the left is a
wall , pane of glass, and shit, im just goin' to d raw it out..
<img src="http://free .prohosting.com /~octsky10/B&E/ONE.gif" alt=" - " />
W ell i want to know is will the pulse sent from the bottom left sensor, bounce off the window? I think it does Because that little
room on the bottom right is a 24hr ATM, in order to get into that room you must insert your atm to a reader , and then the
doors will open, they have the m electrom agnetic locks , and from the outside its locked, but when your done with th e atm it
unlo cks, also explained in NBK's post. there are 2 sets of doors , first set it for the 24hr atm , then the nex t set it for the store
during work hours. Well i want to know if i got a pane of glass m y height and width, could i hold that up wit a suction cup and it
walk ed right through the area were the pulse's are being sent? ALRIGHT THANKS
<sm all>[ July 09, 2002, 12:50 AM: Me ssage edited by: AfterRain ]</sm all>
pyromaniac_guy July 9th, 200 2, 01:11 AM

no you couldnt
Mick July 9th, 200 2, 01:28 AM

are you fucking kidding?
a 615kb BMP image.
w o u l d a m o d p l e a s e r e m o v e t h e i m age url.

T h e n h o w d o e s t h e a l a r m not trip ? Is it that section of the alarm shut down untill they lea ve? If not, There is nothing from
stop ing the sensor to pulse into that room area, there is nothing blocking it at all, when iam in this room , i can see the sensor
with nothing blocking it, and is it possible to shut down just that section, or would you need to bring down the whole alarm, for
say a set tim e, then reactivate it?
a b o u t t h e i m age, i'll m ake it smaller n ow
Mick July 9th, 200 2, 01:58 AM

alarm s are in sections, you deactivate individual section s depending on where you want to go.
the sensor is probably controlled by the door swipe.
either that or the sensors FOV doesn't cover the ATM room .
(just cause you can see it doe sn't m ean it can see you.)
pyromaniac_guy July 9th, 200 2, 02:01 AM

there are 1001 reasons why your plan m ight not work, a few, in no particular order...
(alot of this depend on what type of m otion detector your talking about, there are active ir, passive ir, microwave, and
ultrasonic to name a few)
-the m otion detector m ay be set to register m otion in a range not exceeding the placment of the window
- t h e r e m a y b e a m e c a n i s m t h a t d e t e c t s t h e d o o r h a s b e e n o p e n e d , a n d s h u t s o f f t h a t m otion detector until lthe door is
opened again for the person to leave
-the m otion detector m ay be on a tim er that shuts it do wn after each entry into the atm a r e a
-the m otion detector m ay be a fake purposly put into plain view
-the glass may inhibit the sen sing bea m f r o m t h e m otion detector in an active se nsor (not likely as it's near ir) HO WEVER th e
glass window isnt m oving, now is it!!!!!!!? if you held up a piece of glass to sheild your movm ents, would the motion detector
not detect the m otion of the glass you held? you m ight as well hide behind a peice of cardboard box...
-passive detectors rely on a m oving ch a n g e o f t e m perture from am bient. the hum an body is normally alot higher than am bient
t e m p e r t u r e , b u t i f y o u w e r e t o t a k e a l a r g e p i e c e o f g l a s s , u n l e s s i t h a p p e n e d t o h a v e t h e e x a c t s a m e t e m p a s t h e r o o m you
were in, it's much larger physics size would m ake up for the fact that it only had a sm all teperture differential from the room....

Alrig ht, thanks m a n , H a s a n y o n e b e e n to the T heif Forum... And if so, what needs to be a dded, As you'll see i have B&E,Auto
Theft,Id Theft, and Misc section which will be little petty shit.. ALRIGHT THANKS
AFTERRAIN

pyro maniac_guy, about what you said, would'nt it just reflect the pulse away and no to the sensor?
altho the glass is not moving, but people in that room would be, But im guessing it just shuts down either tim er or when you
enter
auzquad July 21st, 2002, 11:42 AM

learn to spell
<sm all>[ July 22, 2002, 07:11 AM: Me ssage edited by: Machiavelli ]
kingspaz July 21st, 2002, 06:44 PM

auzquad, learn to spell correctly and use punctuation such as full stops. your native language is english, as you are from
australia, so you have no excuse for poor english.
john_smith Novem ber 13th, 2002, 07:02 AM

W ould putting a piece of alum inum tape on the sensor (during business hours) work?
stanfield Novem ber 13th, 2002, 11:57 AM

yeah, put an opaque plastic piece during the business hour and the sensor won't work anymore. Don't be caught...

It'd be quickly noticed that the door announcer wasn't working. And be quickly removed.
Only if you did it IMMEDIATELY prior to sneaking in would it be useful.
green beret D e c e m ber 6th, 2002, 09:47 PM

If you have a can of spray-on clear laquer you can use that as a substitu te for the tape, just spray a few layers over the
sensor.
john_smith D e c e m ber 7th, 2002, 06:26 PM

Do you m e a n P I R ' s ?
CyclonitePyro D e c e m ber 9th, 2002, 08:35 PM

DREAM- In a certain high scho ol, there appears m otion detectors resemb ling this one in every room <a href="http://
www.smarthom e.com /7481.htm l" targe t="_blank">http://www.sm arthom e.com /7481.html</a>
Now in the ro om I'm interested in, there is one attached to the wall with a wire leading up and into the ceiling.
My first thought was to just go into the room a couple days in advance of entering through a window and sn ip the wire right
where it comes out of the detector, but I figured this would signal faculty that it was disabled. Is this so, or it it dependant on
the security system brand?
I d o h a v e a c c e s s t o t h i s r o o m , s o I w o u l d b e a b l e s n e a k i n a n d p a i n t t h e lens glo ss white with a small model paint brush. I'm
not sure if a layer of paint would block IR radiation. This appears to be a cheap m o d e l b e c a u s e n o sm all light or LED comes on
when you walk past it, which would help to see if it detects after I paint it.
W hat could I do to disable this motion detector without alerting adm inistration? O nce the detector is out of the equation, I
would have all night to "stock up." The room is the second story up, there is all kinds of shit laying around including a ladder
that would m ake it sim ple to get to the window, once through the window (with duffel bags), I'm in heaven, and I ca n pick th e
lock to a certain kind of storage closet. The win dow is not visable to surrounding houses either. :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > NEW LSC DESIGN
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AfterRain July 12th, 20 02, 03:5 8 AM

<img src="http://free .prohosting.com /~octsky10/sc.gif" alt=" - " />
I was thinking by having 2 upside down v's at an angel each, when then cam e down they'd create a bigger cut, such when yo u
ax a tree you com e i n f r o m a n a n g e l o n t o p a n d bottom to create a v type cut. W ould this work?
Sorry if i put this in thewrong space, i think sc are a tool, so i put it here.m ove if needed, but was not to sure. thanks
now i look at that pic i made, it does n ot show what i ha d in m ind, see been up for lil over 24 hrs, so i tired and got sore eyes,
sorry...
nbk2000 July 12th, 20 02, 11:0 4 AM

The drawing looks a little retarded <im g border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , but I g et the idea.
There's a device calle d a "fracture strip" that uses two opposing strips of PBX m ounted on a plastic strip. The two PBX charge s
are at slight angles to each other and, when exploded, the shock from the two charges intersect inside of the target, causing it
to fracture. It doesn't cut through the m e t a l l i k e a n L S C d o e s , b u t i t d o e s t h e s a m e thing, severe the m etal in two. It also uses
a lot less explosive.
Not to put a dam per on your creativity, but are you tryin g to reinvent the wheel? The m a s t e r s u s e a s i n g l e c h e v r o n - s h a p e d
linerl. They must do it for a re a s o n .
Also, ALL CAPS TYPE is highly annoying. Please don't do it in the future.
Madog555 July 12th, 20 02, 02:2 4 PM

s h a p e d c h a r g e s w o r k b e c a u s e o f t h e m onroe(sp?) effect. and the best way to harness it is the typical SC/LSC
</fo nt><blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-sm all; font-
family: m o n o s p a c e ; " >
______
| |
| /\ |
|/ \|</pre><hr /></blockquote>i think your first one may be a little intersting
b u t t h e o t h e r o n e s d o n t m a k e m utch sense. do you have a reason why you think they will be better?
edit: fixed pic. why th e hell is HTML off?!?!
<sm all>[ July 12, 2002, 01:26 PM: Me s s a g e e d i t e d b y : M a d o g 5 5 5 ] < / s m all>
kingspaz July 12th, 20 02, 06:2 2 PM

b a s i c a l l y y o u n e e d a s m any explosive waves to come together in a constructive interaction. like light waves...two waves can be
a d d e d i f s h o t a t t h e s a m e t i m e or can cancel each other out if shot half a wavelength apart (i know shockwaves are
long itudinal but transverse waves are easier to im agine). basically it works on the principal of vector additio n as far as i know.
the vectors o f the shockwaves add together to m ake a larger shockwave. think that makes sense anyways....i'm tired...
the first one is an interesting idea.
h e r e s s o m e l i n k s f o r s h a p e d c h a r g e s a n d m unroe effect originally from tabletop tactics or somthing...copy and paste to your
browser...
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com / m o 3 / k i n g s p az/m unroe_effect.htm " ta rget="_b lank">http://www.angelfire.com / m o 3 /

king s p a z / m unroe_effect.htm</a>
xoo1246 July 13th, 20 02, 06:2 7 AM

T h e m e t a l i s n e v e r m olten in a SC.
AfterRain July 13th, 20 02, 07:0 4 AM

No im not trying to reinvent th e wheel, it was a idea i had while reading som e info on the sc. so it has the same effect,thats
cool... thanks.
nbk2000 July 13th, 20 02, 10:3 3 AM

The metal is ALWAYS liquified in a proper SC .
T h e y ' r e n o t 3 s e p e r a t e d e s i g n s. It's 3 stages in the detonation of the charge that he's attem pting to illustrate.
However, if it supposed to end up like #3, then you've just achieved the sam e thing every other LSC on the planet does, only
with more effort and less effect.
Afterrain, I hope you're not thinking th at my description of a fracture strip is som ehow sim ilar to, a nd endorsing your idea,
because it's not.
Don't innovate, im itate. It's m uch easier. Especially whe n you don't know what you're doing yet.
M a d d o g 5 5 5 , H T M L i s o f f f o r a r e a s o n t h a t y o u d o n ' t n e e d t o k n o w . L e a r n U B B C o d e . D o e s t h e s a m e thing (for the m ost part).
Anthony July 13th, 20 02, 02:4 4 PM

From the information I have read on the subject, SC liners do not liquify, or turn to dust, the should stay as one piece. Like
t h e e x p e r i m ent where prefragm ented liners were fired into tanks of water. The liner simply gains m o r e e n e r g y t h a n i s n e e d e d
to totally deform it, m aking it act like a liquid when it encounters an obje ct.
AfterRain July 13th, 20 02, 03:5 5 PM

That picture i m ade, does not at all , show what i was tryin' to sh ow, other the its got the 2 v's....
NBK, i wasn't at this time trying to play wit the stuff, i was justing read som e i n f o o n t h e m , But do you know where i can read up
m ore on them with detailed in formation , such as whats the space between target and sc would be for different targets, and
explosives to use too .. And does any one have som e good chemistry sites, im trying to expand my knowledge into more of
the explosives section... :)
nbk2000 July 14th, 20 02, 12:2 2 PM

<a href="http://www.prod.sandia.gov/cgi-bin/te chlib/access-control.pl/1996/962031.pdf" target="_blank">h ttp://
www.prod.sandia.gov/cgi-bin/techlib/access-control.pl/1996/962031.pdf</a>
10Mb downlo ad. The full file is included in the "Explosives_Forum " 1999 PDF archive that I m a d e a l o n g t i m e a g o . I t ' s o n t h e
FTP. A lilltle looking would have found it. :rolleyes:
ST July 14th, 20 02, 01:0 1 PM

The liner acts like a "liquid" for the sam e reason glaciers flow and the continents drift, im m e n s e p r e s s u r e , b u t n o n e o f t h e s e
are truely liquified.
nbk2000 July 16th, 20 02, 09:1 1 AM

Ice flows because of imm ense pressures, true. But ice isn't metal. And it's not doing so in the space of m illiseconds either.
W hen a copper cone (or angle) is inverted in m illiseconds, it turns white hot and liquifies. Just take a piece of coat hanger wire
and bend it back and forth a bit. It soon gets too hot to touch.
Now, if you can do that by hand without working up a sweat, imagine doing it in a few milliseconds with a piece of metal too
s t i f f t o d o b y h a n d u s i n g a c h u n k o f h i g h e x p l o s i v e t h a t e x p l o d e s with thousands of degre e s o f h e a t . H m m m ?
Jesus, there's even pictures of this happening. One was just recently posted. Look for it.
kingspaz July 16th, 20 02, 07:1 5 PM

further evidence for liquifaction of the liner is inside tanks which have been hit by shaped charges. the inside is ofte n
splattered with splats of copper as the jet has penetrated throug h t h e h u l l a n d d i s p e r s e d u p o n i m pacting the irregular contents.
Mr Cool July 16th, 20 02, 07:5 0 PM

...and after a certain distance (varies depending on construction of SC), the jet begins to break up into droplets.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > R adar
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Energy84 July 19th, 20 02, 02:1 0 AM

I know this d oesn't have anything to do with the genera l topics here at the forum (unless we are m o r e a d v a n c e d t h a n I s u s p e c t
:rolleyes: ) but the subject has been b ugging me lately, I want to build my own working radar system .
It's not necessarily going to be a full featured tracking system , but just something sim ple enough to detect a vehicle or
s o m ething at long ranges (1-2 miles, m a b y e m o r e , m a b y e l e s s ) a n d a l s o b e a b l e t o t e l l s p e e d a n d distance. I think it shou ld
be easy enough to set up, in theory. I figure that I could use the BASIC Stamp 2p from <a href="http://www.paralla xinc.com /
html_files/products/Basic_Stamps/m odule_bs2p.asp" target="_blank">Parallax</a> to handle all the num ber crunching
required to d e t e r m i n e r a n g e s a n d d i s p lay the inform ation. It wouldn't be that hard I don't think to program the thing.
My biggest handicap right now is the transm itte r/receive r portion of it. I haven't got a clue how this would be setup. The only
place I can e ven think of to get a transm itter and receiver is from a police radar detector with jam ming feature. The radar
detecting portion of the device is supposed to be a rece iver, and the jam m i n g f e a t u r e i s s u p p o s e d t o b e a t r a n s m itter. All th at
w o u l d n e e d t o b e d o n e i s t o d i s a s s e m ble the unit and figure out how to rewire it to suit m y needs. Or at least that's the plan.
Also, I believe that the signal would need to be focused s o m ehow. This task I think would be best accom p l i s h e d b y u s i n g a
s m a ll satellite dish (24" RCA dish should suffice).
Acco rding to m y hand y P o c k e t R e f e r e n c e b o o k , r a d a r f r e q u e n c y ' s a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e b e t w e e n 1 3 0 0 - 1 6 0 0 M h z .
D o e s a n y b o d y h a v e a n y n o t e s , c o m m ents or useful inform ation that they'd like to add?
Oh, and for a quick rundown of how radar works, for those of you who don't know, check it out at <a href="http://
www.howstuffworks.com /radar.htm " target="_blank">HowStuffWo rks.com </a>
<sm all>[ July 19, 2002, 01:17 AM: Me ssage edited by: Energy84 ]</sm all>
AmonDin July 19th, 20 02, 02:5 3 AM

From my limited knowledge of radar, I don't se e how you could detect CARS at 1-2 m iles, aircraft probably, but not cars, trees/
houses and all that would get in the way.
Energy84 July 19th, 20 02, 03:0 2 AM

As long as I can focus the beam properly, I can get clear lines of sight for over 10 miles where I live. And if I feel like doing
s o m e hiking, I know a spot where I can see for at least 15 m iles.
And yes, I live on the prairies. :cool:
PYRO500 July 19th, 20 02, 04:0 3 AM

I don't think you'll ea sily just create a radar gun, there is a fair am ount of integrated electronics in them just related to
transm itting and receving let alone counting the frequency shift in the pu lsees.
look on this page for some downloads on electronic kit m anuals, there is a microwave motion sensor and a radar gun kit, the
first is the sim ples but if you look at the radar gun circuit you'll see what I mean.
pyromaniac_guy July 19th, 20 02, 07:0 7 AM

energy84... i'm a bit confused by where you say 'detect a car at a distance' do you mean that if you sight o n a car at a
distance, you want the device to be able to see a microwave reflection off of the car, or are you wanting to build an automated
device to actually DETECT the presence of a car??? there is obviously a huge diffrence in d ifficulty between the two tasks...
Energy84 July 19th, 20 02, 09:2 3 AM

For now, I just want to point the device at a car and have the device dete ct it and be able to tell distance/speed. A working
system that will automatically detect any contacts will later be in the plans. A rada r system of this type is basically just a radar
gun that spins in circles. W hen it pics up a contact, it just appears as a blip on a screen. The position of the blip is determ i n e d
by the position of the radar gun at the m oment of contact.
In the near future however, I just want the device to be able to detect som ething like say, a wall and tell m e how far away it is.
P Y R O 500, I figured that alot of the integrated electronics could be elim in ated by using the BASIC Stamp 2p, but I could be
wrong. I've n ever really seen a wiring diagram for this type of thing. It's m y understanding, from <a href="http://
www.geocities.com /C apeCanaveral/Hangar/8528/intro_e .html" target="_blank">this page</a> that frequency shiftin g is not
used in regular radar but rather it's used where extrem ely high accuracy is required and a continuous wave is transm itted. This
type of syste m is use d alot in guided m issles.
BTW , I think you forg ot to put in the U RL for th e site that you are referring to.
PYRO500 July 19th, 20 02, 10:2 9 AM

here's the link
<a href="http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/sitepages/hkdownloads.htm " target="_blank">http://www.ramseyelectronics.com /
s i t e p a g e s / h k d o w n l o a d s . h t m </a>
s o m ewhere a while back I saw a circuit to detect motion with a m icrowave sensor attached to a basic stam p .
As far as speed sensing, that's were you need to detect dopplar shift of the reflecting radio waves.
If you need to just detect the proximity of the object you could possibly build an adjustable oscilator and use an osciliscope to
detect the diffrence in reflected frequency's I dont think you'll be able to econom ically get all the p arts for a high power multi
killowatt pulsed radar but they do have gunn diode transm itter/recever pairs but I'm not sure of their speed in trnasmission
a n d r e c e p t i o n b e a c u s e t h e d a t a t h e y a re designed to send is slower than radar pulses.
Energy84 July 19th, 20 02, 10:5 3 AM

The doppler shifting for speed determ ination problem d oes concern me. It would be very tricky to build I'm sure, but I've go t
another idea. What if I were to use sim ple physics. Instead of m easuring the change in frequency, I would simply m e a s u r e t h e
c h a n g e i n r a n g e a n d d e t e r m i n e s p e e d f r o m that. ie. the target is at a range of 152m at T1 and is detected a g a i n ( T 2 ) 0 . 5 s
later at a range of 15 1 m . S i m p l e m ath dictates that the target is travelling at 2 m /s. I don't see any problems with using this
m ethod over the doppler shifting m ethod other than m a b y e m ore precise timing required.
Also, can doppler shifting be used to m easure the speed of targets trave lling parallel to the radar gun? I'm under the
im pression that it cannot, but mabye it can.
learn to spell
<sm all>[ July 22, 2002, 07:12 AM: Me ssage edited by: Machiavelli ]
mrloud July 21st, 2002, 11:22 AM

1 4 7 W o r d s i n o n e s e n t e n c e . W e could have a new record here gentlm en.
Doppler shift and change[distance]/tim e readings will only tell you how fast an ob ject it m oving directly toward or away from
you. If you a lso take into account the change[bearing to the object]/tim e you can work ou t its vector (velocity *and* direction).
A l s o , h a v e a l o o k a t s o m e m arine based radar systems. They are pretty cheap (for a radar setup) and can do som e f u n k y
stuff with reg ards to proximity alerts.
Have a look <a href="http://www.whitworths.com.au/" target="_blank">here</a> and run a search for "radar"

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Freezing at Low Temps
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mongo blongo January 25th, 2003, 06:49 PM

I am thinking of building a machine that can freeze anhydrous nitric acid out of a mixture of Dichloromethane and HNO3 at
around -50 degC. I am thinking of this because I have no other way of achieving such low temps (can't get dry ice). It would
also be more convenient to use.
It would be great if anyone knows of any methods that could achieve this.
At the moment I am thinking that a normal household freezer is a good place to start.
Maybe some condensers,coiled up, from a few freezers could be used together cooling a small volume container?
What about taking out the thermostat? Does anyone know what kind of temps a freezer could drop to without the thermostat
interrupting it?
I have also seen a machine in a wine shop. I don't know what it's called but it looks expensive. It is used to chill bottles of
wine in about 30 seconds (it must get very cold for that). It has two holes for the bottles to fit and in the holes are these
cooler jackets which I presume are filled with Ethylene Glycol. They are cooled by the machine in probably the same way a
freezer does.
I probably can't afford something like this but I just thought it was worth mentioning.
Another machine called a microtome also has some kind of powerful cooling system. I used to use one in a quality control
laboratory for a plastics company that I worked for. It was used to freeze and slice very thin samples of plastic sheet. It could
drop to -40 degC with the top open. But again that thing would cost a fortune.
So does anyone have any ideas about achieving such low temps without resorting to dry ice and other hard to find chems?
Thanks :)
Al Nobel January 25th, 2003, 08:00 PM

The only way I know to reach such low temperatures is to get access to liquid N2 (which sould be nearly impossible).I dont
think that there exists a way to reach such low temperatures without spending lots of money.
A43tg37 January 25th, 2003, 09:18 PM

There are a few ways of achieving temperatures that low without dry ice or liquid nitrogen, they have been pretty extensively
discussed on the Hive, mostly for use in things like liquefying ammonia:
Refrigerators/freezers
Hive post 378139 (just this one post). About modifying refrigeration apparatus (and a couple of other things) for use as very
low temp lab coolers. It has many good references, including one from The Scientific American Amateur Scientist column
(another good reason that the Amateur Scientist CD should be group-purchased for the FTP, in my opinion).
Peltier Coolers
Hive posts 296588 (and the entire thread it's part of, which also includes useful US patents and a simple chemical reaction
that can supposedly get down to -55C) and 180583 (again, including the entire thread it's part of). Although Peltier coolers
aren't exactly cheap, if the claims in this thread are true, they are capable of some very low temperatures.
Also, if you can't get dry ice, why not just make some? Edmund Scientifc ( <a href="http://www.scientificsonline.com/ec/
Products/Display.cfm?CategoryID=317291" target="_blank">http://www.scientificsonline.com/ec/Products/Display.cfm?
CategoryID=317291</a> ) and Polyfoam ( <a href="http://www.polyfoam.com/dry_ice_makers.html" target="_blank">http://
www.polyfoam.com/dry_ice_makers.html</a> ) both sell dry ice makers that only require a tank of carbon dioxide to hook up
to. Although both models cost slightly above a hundred dollars (US dollars), they would be well worth it in the long run for one
who couldn't get dry ice.
[ January 25, 2003, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: A43tg37 ]
mongo blongo January 25th, 2003, 09:39 PM

A43tg37- Thanks dude! I was not aware of dry ice makers. That seems to be the easiest option. I will look into it.
VX January 25th, 2003, 10:16 PM

A dry ice maker is a waste of money! To make dry ice, just get a cylinder of CO2, open the valve with a cloth or something
over it to collect the solid dry ice.... Thats it. The only advantage I can think of is that the machine may improve efficiency,
but for $100 surely it's not worth it?
The modified freezer could be a good way to go, especially if modified to either change the setting of the thermostat to a
lower temp, or if temperature is not crucial completely remove it and cause it to run constantly.
nbk2000 January 26th, 2003, 01:47 AM

Cracking open a CO2 cylinder doesn't work for making Dry Ice. The valve orfice quickly freezes up and stops the flow. :( The
dry ice maker has something in the valve that keeps it from clogging, allowing the dry ice to form.
mongo blongo February 4th, 2003, 10:23 AM

Well I am thinking of getting my own valve and making some contraption which will do the same thing because it's too
expensive for me.
US Patent <a href="http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/
srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,528,907.WKU.&OS=PN/5,528,907&RS=PN/5,528,907" target="_blank">5,528,907 </a>
describes how the machine works. I haven't read the whole thing yet but it may yield some clues on how the valve stops itself
from clogging up. For some reason the images don't work for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
a_bab February 4th, 2003, 01:50 PM

As a matter of fact you only need to adapt a 30 cm tube at the CO2 tank, and you need a cloth sack as well. The tube should
be about 3 cm wide. Try it, it works; the dry ice is formed on the tube walls and it'll fall in the sack. The valve won't get
clogged because of the presure. And the valve should be wide opened !
[ February 04, 2003, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: a_bab ]
PEROMAN February 4th, 2003, 01:51 PM

A mix of calcium chloride(it wasnot written , hydrous or unhydrous, but i think CaCl2*6H2O) with ice gives -55C
Al Koholic February 5th, 2003, 02:34 AM

CaCl2 giving -55C by mixing with ice?? I don't think so...
Maybe you are thinking of its effect on freezing point depression. Even then it still won't prevent freezing of water down to -
55C. Ethylene Glycol is the way to go here. Even still, you would have to mix the ethylene glycol with ice that is already at -55
or below...
Actually, now that I think about it, CaCl2 dissolving in water produces heat.
Al
[ February 05, 2003, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: Al Koholic ]
PEROMAN February 5th, 2003, 03:42 AM

It's written in a book ! It's not my emagination!
Unhydrous CaCl2 dissolves it water with heating , but here is CaCl2*6H2O .
J February 5th, 2003, 06:10 AM

Which book?

J , it must be written in every normal chemical book
I read it in chemical encyclopedia (russian) (you dont know it)
There is written :mix of 1.5 weight parts of CaCl2*6H2O + 1 weight part of snow or crushed ice can decrease t to -55C
Also you can find it with any e-net searching system(www.yahoo.com ...) - just write " cooling mixtures"
for example go here <a href="http://home.t-online.de/home/KS-Info/cool.htm" target="_blank">http://home.t-online.de/
home/KS-Info/cool.htm</a>
or <a href="http://www.nl.fishersci.com/TechZone/Tables/chemicals.htm" target="_blank">http://www.nl.fishersci.com/
TechZone/Tables/chemicals.htm</a>
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Yes I have also seen this in many places. Actually I may as well give it a go and see what happens. I will get some chalk and
neutralize it with HCl and evaporate till dryness to get some Calcium Chloride. I will probably have to keep the bath and
everything well insulated with polystyrene or something.

Remember ! You need only CaCl2*6H2O !
If you dry it at big t , it can demompose(even can give some HCl).
But if you keep CaCl2*6H2O on air for some time , it would take water from air and become liquid
So there is a problem to obtain CaCl2*6H2O . It's worth to read some books about it...
[ February 05, 2003, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: PEROMAN ]

I would assume that dehumidifer refills would be anydrous calcium chloride? If so, its 1-2 for a kilo from practically anywhere.
VX February 5th, 2003, 02:45 PM

It would be easy to make CaCl2(6H20) from anhydrous calcium chloride. Simply start with one mole of CaCl2 (111g) and to
this add 6 moles of water (108g)(108ml), mix well and leave for a while in a sealed container.
Mr Cool February 5th, 2003, 03:53 PM

My freezer gets below -20*C on its lowest setting, it could probably go lower in theory.
I've seen CaCl2 for de-icing roads in B&Q, it was a tub of several kg for a few .
This would probably be cold enough for cloud chambers, which would be nice since I have more productive things to do when I
occaisionally get dry ice.
Al Koholic February 5th, 2003, 08:08 PM

I stand corrected. I neglected to note that due to its hydrated state, CaCl2.6H2O will not cause an increase in the temperature
of a solution as will the anhydrous form.
Anhydrous CaCl2 forms the hexahydrate when dissolving and in the process releases large amounts of heat.
Hydrous CaCl2 simply produces a state change from crystalline to solute. Since it already carries its water onboard so to
speak, the dH of solution is quite positive then.
I wasn't aware of this property of hydrous CaCl2 before, thanks guys.
metafractal February 13th, 2003, 09:01 AM

Flipping through my MERCK: Tables for the Laboratory (A source to trust if any), I found the following table:
4 Water + 1 Potassium Chloride lowers temperature from +20 to -12

1 Water + 1 Ammonium Nitrate " " " +10 " -15
1 Water + 1 Sodium Nitrate
+ 1 ammonium Chloride " " " +8 " -24
3 Ice (ground) + 1 Sodium-
Chloride " " " 0 " -21
1. 2 Ice (ground) + 1 Magnesium-
Chloride
(MgCl2.7 H2O) " " " 0 " -34
1. 2 Ice (ground) + 2 Calcium-
Chloride
(CaCl2.6 H2O) " " " 0 " -39
1. 4 Ice (ground) + 2 Calcium-
Chloride
(CaCcl2.6 H20) " " " 0 " -55
Methanol or Acetone + Dry Ice " " " +15 " -77
Diethyl Ether + Dry Ice " " " +15 " -100
No measurements were given for the last to, so assume that exact proportions are unimportant and just use commonsense.
Almost all the chemicals stated are easily available to the amateur chemist.
I had never really thought about preciseley measuring a freezing mixture, but this table shows how vital it is. Until now, A salt
ice bath for me has always been shake a bit of NaCl on some ice cubes in water...
God I love this book, I've started carrying it around with me everywhere I go! It is a wonderful resource and it fits right in your
pocket. If you see it, by all means do get it (I cant imagine that it would cost more than ~$5US). It is entitled:
"Tables for the Laboratory", by MERCK, and deceptiveley contains a large amount of information. I will upload it to the ftp
when I feel ready to request ftp rights and are granted them, but I doubt that it will be of any particular use if we've got the
full MERCK index up there, as its main appeal is convenience.

Sounds like a good book to have around! Im going to have to obtain me a copy. It would be great to have a little pocket
sized book like that with all kinds of interesting info in!
Where did you obtain your copy? I'll bet it can be gotten from any major book retailer...
mongo blongo February 15th, 2003, 09:45 PM

After some research I have designed some kind of freezing system which could be made out of easily available materials.
I don't know how cold it will get but *hopefully* very cold. I also don't know how much it will cost to make but I think it would
make an interesting project.
<a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/hosted%20images/Mongo%20Blongo/freeze.jpg" target="_blank">Here</a> is a

picture of the design and it is explained below.
Materials & equipment used:
1. Compressor pump - This can be easily salvaged from a fridge or freezer. Just take a trip down the scrap yard and you can
find one for free.
2. Tubing - What you need is tubing that can stand a lot of pressure. Some 1/4" copper tubing (hardware store) should do the
trick.
3. V1 & Outlet1- This is just a normal gas valve. You can get small brass valves from a hardware store.
4. V2 - This is a variable gas valve. In this setup it is being used as an explanation valve in place of a capillary tube. The
need for variable valve will become apparent later.
5. PG1 & PG2 - These are gas gauges which are needed to monitor the pressures involved. I think these may be a bit
expensive though.
6. Inlet1 - This I am not sure about. This valve depends on the source of refrigerant used.
7. Refrigerant - Here you can use any practical refrigerant you want. I think Freon, Propane, Butane(?) would be a good choice.
8. Ethylene Glycol - This is used a heat conductive bath which will remain liquid at low temperatures. Also known as anti-freeze
from a hardware store.
9. Insulation - You can use any insulation you want as long as it works well. Polystyrene should work ok.
10.Plastic container - I will leave this up to you.
11.Mix container - This is the container which will contain the material that you want to freeze. If you are using DCM/HNO3 mix
then make sure it is made out of a resistant material. I suggest Teflon or polypropylene. I have read that certain metals will
react with Dichloromethane so I would rule out metals.
You can attach a sieve with the handle removed to the container. This is so that when the HNO3 is frozen you can QUICKLY
pour out the DCM and the HNO3 crystals will remain.
Operation
1.Once you have built this setup, the first thing you will have to do is evacuate all the air ot of the system. To do this first
close V1 and inlet1 then fully open V2 and the outlet valve. Switch on the pump. The air will be sucked out of the system and
pushed out of outlet1. After a few mins the system will become a vacuum. Then close the outlet valve.
2.Now you will have to charge the system with your chosen refrigerant. To do this you will first have to get some data for your
refrigerant. You will need to know the critical pressure (the pressure at witch your refrigerant changes from a gas into a liquid.
Open V1 and fully close V2. Introduce your refrigerant into inlet1 (like from a propane gas cannister or something) with the
pump still running. Do this until you get a reading Just over your critical pressure on PG2 then close the inlet valve. This now
means that the red side is now filled with LIQUID refrigerant.
Close V1 and switch the pump off. Leave V2 closed and re-introduce your refrigerant until you get a reading of about half(?)
your critical pressure on PG1 and close inlet1. You now have your refrigerant in the form of a GAS on the blue side. The system
is now charged.
3. Now the system is just about ready to work. First fully open the variable valve (V2) and V1 and PG1 and PG2 should be
reading the same pressures. The blue side should start to feel a little cold.
Turn the pump on. Now slowly close V2 until you get a reading just over your critical pressure on PG2. PG1 should then be well
below the critical pressure. Once you have got these pressures and it is stable leave V2 in this position.That is why I said to
use a variable valve.
It should also be possible to change the temp with V2.
The blue side should get very cold and frost up as the liquid refrigerant is being forced into a gas on that side absorbing heat.
As the gas is being compressed into a liquid on the red side it will give off heat. This is why you need to cool this side
somehow eg. an ice bath.
If it is not cooled then it temp could rise over the critical temperature of your refrigerant which means over this temp, it can not
change back into a liquid no matter what pressure you put on it. The efficiency of your system will be GREATLY reduced.
I think I have covered everything here.Did I make any mistakes?

So what does people think of this then?

On a separate note. While I was researching the Peltier Effect I found<a href="http://www.sharperimage.com/us/en/catalog/
productview.jhtml?sku=GF200" target="_blank">this.</a>I have found cheaper ones elsewhere but all you have to do is take
out the thermostat. :)

Your reasoning looks accurate. It sounds (and is) basically like you have built a new (hopefully more badass) refrigerator from
the compressor. The thing is Im not sure if you could get it any colder than a normal refrigerator already would unless the
liquid--->gas expanded into a larger chamber than the original refrigerator did, leading to most heat absorbtion due to
lower pressure. I think thats how it would work but I very very well could be wrong.
Other than that it looks good and your operating procedure makes sense.
Im not sure that you need an ice bath. Common refrigerators do not require one because of the large surface area provided
for heat exchange by the coiled tubes on the back of the fridge.
Thinking of even lower temps here than required to freeze HNO3 (if im not mistaken, don't have merck here now), what about
the potential of a system like this to liquify ammonia? I was contemplating a system like this which would work dry ice and
ethylene glycol (or acetone, ethyl ether, etc) and a pump to run the fluid through and cause a stream of NH3 running through
a tube to condense. The collection container could easily be immersed in the freezing mixture if needed as well. NH3(l) would
be wonderful to create even just for the sake of creating it.
Sparky February 17th, 2003, 06:28 PM

Sounds hard, but you can do it I have faith. Just two points:
I have only had one experience using butane as a coolant and it wasn't so good. My dad's car leaked all it's coolant and it was
a really hot summer day so he decided to try putting in butane instead, with some propane to raise the pressure. It worked for
a while but after an hour and a half or so the compressor was ruined. Butane (and propane too of course) doesn't have the
lubricants needed to let the compressor run without destroying itself. I think you can buy the lubricants but I don't know if they
would separate out of butane or what since they are meant to be added to freon.
A good coolant could be hard to get. Propane's boiling point is barely good enough at around -42 C - you want around -50
right? Methane boils at around -161 but the hard part is getting it. It is sold for cars that run off natural gas but it may be
highly compressed and not actually liquid I'm not sure. Ammonia at only -33 probably wouldn't be a good choice especially
because of it's health effects - you're bound to get a leak sometime.
[ February 17, 2003, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Sparky ]

Al Koholic- I was thinking about a larger gauge wire too. I am not sure either about "lower pressure = more heat absorption".
Does anyone know? I think that it is just plainly the transition of state. and it only absorbs a specific amount of heat for the
transition.
Sparky- What I want is to get to at least 42 deg C (freezing point of HNO3) but 50 deg C would be more favorable. :)
I also don't think the boiling point of the refrigerant comes into play here. Remember we are talking about high and low
pressures. The boiling point changes at different pressures. As long as the blue side is below the critical pressure you can be
sure that it is a gas no matter what temperature it is. Hence the amount of heat absorbed will be the same all along in theory?
. The temp inside the container however will depend on insulation. You want as less heat as possible getting in. You only want
what heat is left in the container to be absorbed. So there will be an equilibrium at some point when the heat getting in will
equal the heat absorbed. So this equilibrium will depend on the heat getting in so the insulation will play a big part on the
lowest temp possible rather than the boiling point of the refrigerant becoming a factor.

I could well be wrong here, but I think it's the differential in pressure that dictates how much heat is absorbed. I.e. 1000psi to
14.7psi would abosrb more heat than 100psi to 1psi. If nothing else there's a greater atmospheric volume of gas for a given
volume compressed.
I reckon it would get colder than a standard fridge because you have a lot less area to absorb heat to, and might be better
insulated. Basically you're cramming all your "coldness" into a smaller space :)
I think the ice water is a good idea, it'd make it easier for the compressor to liquify the gas again.
All AFAIK - I don't know much about refrigeration.
vulture February 18th, 2003, 01:57 PM

Helvetica">I am not sure either about "lower pressure = more heat absorption". Does anyone know? I think that it is just
plainly the transition of state. and it only absorbs a specific amount of heat for the transition.<hr /></
blockquote>It's true if you lower the boiling point of the coolant you are using
to the temperature you are wanting to achieve. Transition of state will cause significant heat absorbtion while the temperature
of the coolant stays constant.
However, there are a few drawbacks.
Once the vapor carries the energy, it's going to get rid of it sometime by condensing and then it will lose alot of heat while
staying at the same temperature then. If this happens where it shouldn't be happening then you'll be warming up.
Also, reduced pressure means lower heat conduction and thus the coolant will need more time to absorb the same amount of
heat.
[ February 18, 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]

mongo blongo
Boiling point of your refrigerant is important - most commerial / industrial heatpumps utilize the liquid/gas phase change for
shifting heat. This results in a much better COP than simply changing gas pressure. A plain gas phase only system does work
, its just not very efficient. Back to boiling point - this is one of the reasons heatpumps require different refrigerants in
differant sitations, eg R12 for a -25C freezer, R22 for air conditioners.
If you want to go really cold, do it the way Carl von Linde did it!
<a href="http://www.chemheritage.org/EducationalServices/chemach/tpg/cvl.html" target="_blank">Carl von Linde</a> (hope i
put the link in right - first post here you know :) )
He liquified air with nothing more than a compressor, a couple of heat exchangers and an expansion valve. I've been wanting
to try this myself with my salvaged refrigeration compressor, but its currently running my air-brush. I think a steady supply of
LOX would be a great thing to have in one's garage :D
Peltier coolers can be used, they can also be stacked for lower temps but they are not efficient. Some specs from the Farnell
Catalogue
heatpump capacity: 70W
Delta T : 68C
supply current 7.4A
supply voltage 14.7 V
So you'd be looking at over 100W of electrical power to pump 70W of heat, so on the hot side of your peltier you've got to get
rid of 170W <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . Oh, and you wont get maximum delta T at maximum heat
transfer rate.
Sparky - your dad's car's cooler died because the compressor oil must be miscible in the refrigerant. This is also why you can't
just replace R12 with R134a - you have to strip the whole cooler down, clean it out completely, change all the seals change to
the correct oil, and then the compressor might last longer than a week.
Marvin February 18th, 2003, 09:41 PM

Boiling point of a liquid changes with pressure, so if you take water water as an example you can get down to neerly 100
degrees below its boiling point in atmospheric pressure. The lower the pressure, the lower the temperature at which it boils,
and so the minimum temp you can reach with that system. Its true to say that latent heat of vapourisation doesnt change
much with pressure, but this does affect the power you can shift with the system. The reason is you arnt dealing with constant
rates of liquid flow, you are compressing gas, for a given compressor volume, the lower the pressure at its inlet, the lower the
total amount of high pressure gas/liquid gets to the other side, and the total heat you can remove is less. Usually around the
triple point a given coolent becomes unworkable, and solids block the flow anyway.
Peltiers can produce temperatures differences of around 70C, but the colder the hot side, the lower the difference they can
produce, and so they dont stack well. Additionally the power they remove is roughly in line with the percentage of the max
capcity they dont use. For example a device rated at 70W, with a max difference of 70C will pump 70W at no temperature
difference. Cooling the cold side to half the difference, say -15C with a hot side of 20C, will pump half of the power, 35 watts.
taking the cold side down to -40, and the device will pump only 7 Watts. They cannot be overspecced, increasing the voltage/
current will only make it perform worse. You still have to supply 70W of power to the device, and remove that plus the heat
pumped from the hot side. They ant very power friendly, but they are solid state and very reliable unless you fry them
(operation with no heatsink, and for these apps only watercooling is feasable).
Try looking into vortex tubes for this application, its possible they can be cascaded to produce -50C at power.

Those vortex tubes are mad! I can't seem to find any pressures that the gas must be. I take it that higher pressure would
produce more heat and then gives more cooling to the cold jet?
Could they be improvised or do they need very accurate construction?
Also I just tried the Calcium Chloride-6-Hydrate reaction many times and the lowest temp I could get was -25 deg C! <img

I spent some time looking into vortex tubes a while back, simply because it seemed such a beautifully simple idea. The only
pressure spec I recall was that the pressure be greater than 1.3atm, which isn't very much. As for building one, it didn't look
like huge amounts of precision were required to make it work, though making one that works well might be another story. I
gather the discovery was rather accidental, as there is still some controversy over exactly why the things work at all. Its not
exactly an intuitive process.
I could find very liitle design info - but I would guess that you will get lower temps with a smaller hole at the cold end, at the
expense of cooling capacity.
I believe they are not that efficient, but they are very, very simple and reliable.
Go have a play in your machine shop :)

I've just remebered another rather neat idea for cooling. Its called a pulse tube, and basically works like a Stirling engine/
heatpump, but uses audio frequencies. These things can be used to cool SQUIDs to around 4 Kelvin (no thats not a typo). I
lost all my links when I got made redundant 2 years ago, but if you search google for 'pulsetube' or 'TADOPTR' (I've forgotton
what the acronym stands for) you should find lots of info, including diagrams,design info, simulation software etc. Should be
very easy to make - its just a tube with a loudspeaker at one end, closed at the other end, with some stainless mesh in the
middle, and a couple of heat exhangers.
firebreether February 19th, 2003, 01:10 AM

A note about refrigerants. For as low a temp as possible you'll want to use materials with very low boiling points, but hvae
critical point temps above 30* C. You wouldnt want to turn your refrigerator off, and the temperature climbs past the critical
temperature, so the pressure just keeps climbing and clinbing, until boom, and your refrigerator's tubes explode. Suffice to
say, that wouldnt be a good situation.
Heres a list of ones i would use (besides the freons of course :p )

N2O, Propane, NH3, other hydrocarbons.......
I would stay away from peltier coolers if i was you though, stick with normal refrigerators.
TADOPTR = thermo-acoustically driven orifice pulse tube refrigerator, im just looking up stuff on it, yay google!
here is a simple picture showing the schematic, that was found here, which explains it more <a href="http://irtek.arc.nasa.gov/
WhatisOPT.html" target="_blank">here</a>
<img src="http://irtek.arc.nasa.gov/OPTsketch.gif" alt=" - " />
[ February 19, 2003, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: firebreether ]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > AP Det Co rd
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View Full Version : AP Det Cord
green beret March 1st, 2003, 12:05 AM

I had this idea:
M a k e d e t c o r d u s i n g A P a n d f l e x i b l e 6 m m OD (really an y diam e t e r s h o u l d w o r k a b o v e 5 m m ) plastic tubing (the clear type).
I tried this on a sm all scale, h eres what I did:

I t o o k a b o u t 2 f e e t o f t h e t u b i n g , s e a l e d o n e e nd with duct tape, double layered, this is so the AP reaches right to the end of
the cord as opposed to using epoxy or silicon.
I then poured the AP in, gently shaking the tube periodically to get m ore AP in and slightly raise the density. I then sealed the
end with duct tape.
To test this I m ade two sm all AP charg es in cardboard tubes (ab out half the size of toilet rolls) and inserted the cord about 1
inch into the top of both.
I then buried the two charges up to the tops of the cardboard.
Then I got .22 case full of lightly pressed AP,fu sed with 2mm green visco, and m ade a slit in the tube and gently placed it in.
I lit the fuse and retreated.
Result:
Loud characteristic AP bang. O n closer inspection, the det cord worked an d fired both charges.
Applications:
I f l o n g l e n g h ts of this cord work (which I'll try when I get m ore H202) it could be used to fire sim ultanious charges o f ANNM,
APAN, or anything really, by sim ply inserting the cord in to the detonator of the m a i n c h a r g e . T h e c o r d c o u l d b e h o o k e d m o s t
ways a regular det cord could.
So, let me know what you all think. It works (on a sm all scale definatley), and I beleive its quite practical for firing multiple
charges without electrics.
Maybe flashpowder would work in place of AP but I'm n o t s u r e . M a y b e s o m eone could try it.
ALENGOSVIG1 March 1st, 2003, 12:52 AM

Your not the first one to think of this.
AP works, but its pain fully slow to pack a long tube full of AP. Nitro works much better becuase you can just pour it in, you can
calculate the the volum e of the tube so you know how m uch nitro you need for x length of tubing, plus its more powerful.
<sm all>[ March 01, 2 003, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: ALENGO SVIG1 ]
static_firefly March 1st, 2003, 01:07 AM

I was considering som ething sim mler, except i was goin g to use MEKP as its a liquid, so its easy to fill the tube, its pretty m uch
alwa ys at m ax density, its more stable then AP, and pretty easy to set off. Is still try this out but i dont have tube o r anywhere
to try this
<sm all>[ March 01, 2 003, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: static_firefly ]</sm all>
carbonated March 1st, 2003, 10:45 PM

W ould the MEKP eat through the plastic tube?
PyroTech March 2nd, 2 003, 03:33 PM

If you only have acces to AP, you could make something like a det cord with norm al tape.
Lay a piece of tape on a flat surface, sticky side up. Put a really small lin e of AP in the m i d d l e o f t h e t a p e , a s m all line will
work! You do n't have to use alot of AP. W hen the line is done, just flip the tape in width.
It's not new, I know. But for beginners this will do the trick, atleast in my opinion.
green beret March 2nd, 2 003, 07:55 PM

I hadnt heard this anywhere b efore, but I had a fair idea that it would've been thought of before. Yes, I know liquids would
work better, but all I have at this stage is AP, so thats what I was working with. I hope to synthesize som e MEKAP soon, and I'll
do some testing with that. I have never manufactured NG but I've handled NG based explosives, it gave me pretty bad
h e a d a c h e s , I ' m not really prone to headaches but the NG concentration was high (60%+). But still, it would (as was said) be
farm m ore powerful than AP, but if youre just working with AP as a m ain charge and/or prim er, this cord would do.
EP March 2nd, 2 003, 09:03 PM

Hm , I hadn't thought of using liquids before! I can mak e plenty of MEKP, so I'll have to try that. To test the tubing before
acutally filling it I'd stick a piece of it in som e MEKP to see if it dissolves it or whatever.
static_firefly March 4th, 2003, 04:00 AM

W ith AP iv found alfoil has som e benifits. Place your AP in a strip and fold it over a few tim es then twist, this compresses it a
bit. Q uite loud. You m ust know what your doing with this and use nutralised Dry AP. I had som e s o me fuse size det "cord" with
slighty damp and unnutralzied (cheap firecrackers) start sm o k i n g o n m e <im g bo rder="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
but it didnt e x p l o d e .
Skean Dhu March 23rd, 2003, 01:02 AM

all this talk of MEKP/MEKAP has got m e wondering. how is it m ade, i did a search for it a few weeks back bu t to no a vail.
also why not use APrc to fill the tubing, granted it might take longer but it would make it a little bit safer to handle with regards
t o s h o c k a n d such.
VX March 23rd, 2003, 12:42 PM

Thats odd, I just did a search and got 47 hits. The one that you want is <a href="http://www.rogue sci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/
ultim atebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001333#000007" target="_blank">other peroxides</a> .
I think I can also rem ember a whole topic called MEKP, but must be in th e archives by now, as it didn't com e up in my search.
Skean Dhu March 23rd, 2003, 03:28 PM

yea, i forgot to search the archives, i found a few posts regarding the m aking of MEKP(i also saw it as MEKAP), but there see m s
to be some contraversy on whether or not MEKP is a solid like AP or a liquid explosive. which is it?
The only thing i can think of to explain this is some people in th e archived topic were using PVC primer, although it contains
MEK it also contains acetone so would this cause the crystilization(sp?) th at the archived posts are talking a b o u t ? D o e s p u r e
MEK yeild an explosive liquid?
a l s o c o u l d s o m e o n e p l e a s e s h a r e s o m e of their experiences(dreams what ever you wanna call them ) about MEK(A)P.
NERV March 23rd, 2003, 07:10 PM

Every time I m ade MEKP it came out as a whitish/ clear liquid. IIR C it's the dimeric form that is liquid, and the trime ric form is
solid. Also th e d i m e r i c f o r m i s s u p p o s e d t o b e m ore stable, also the dimeric isom er is the produced more frequently produced
during MEKPs m anufacture.
vurr March 26th, 2003, 10:42 AM

AP melting results:
pure stuff little bit below water bp.(~960C)
m ixed with paraffine:600C
pure with lead pellets:bang in a 2 m inutes(?)
Gargoylebrother April 14th, 2003, 11:57 AM

Hm m well i would think that AP would be of poor use in detcord the power of AP or MEKP is signifen tly less that PETN. If it was
m e i would probably use R DX or NG saturated sawdust or even AN it would prove to be signifently m ore powerful also an APAN
or ANFO m ix could be used then just crim p a detonator on and fire it.

AN?! You said AP wasn't brisant enough!
Plus AN's critical dima ter is going to m e a n s o m e t r u l y m assive det "cord"...
rooster April 17th, 2003, 06:56 PM

The critical diameter of AN would be big, but a lot smaller if mixed with NG. However, this m ix would be harder getting into
tubes, etc. as it tends to get clum py. The RDX or PETN is a good idea, it would no t b e a s d a n g e r o u s as AP to fill in longer
cords.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Anonymous Credit Cards! Woo
Hoo!
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View Full Version : Anonymous Credit Cards! Woo Hoo!
PrimoPyro August 7th, 2002, 08:00 PM

Here's another gift from The Hive, from that crazy bastard MaDMAx again. No wonder he was awarded his title "A+ Analyst" eh?
He's one smart mofo that certainly knows how stay anonymous in the tough realm of acquisition, the techniques involved in
locating and obtaining the various things essential to that of the clandestine chemist. Careless acquisition has resulted in
more arrests than any other mistake except narcs.
Although this may be less applicable here, it still holds great value IMO. I wouldn't want to purchase certain chemicals and
have anyone know that I was purchasing them. Regardless of what you use them for, drugs or bombs, certain chemicals like
acetic anhydride ARE available, but are watched. The uses vary, but the stigma is the same. Do it in the open and be
oppressed. Do it anonymously to never return, and stay safe. Your choice. Here beings the thread, chiefly the first post. The
rest isn't that special.
MaDMAx:
$$ Anonymous Credit Card $$ Bookmark Reply
I've brought up this subject in the past, but it didn't receive any real interest because the company offering this service,
Netspend, was only available in a relatively small area. However, they have grown and I think many more people will be
interested in them again, so here it is:
<a href="https://www.netspend.com/public/" target="_blank">https://www.netspend.com/public/</a>
Go to Netspend's website and make an account with whatever anonymous email address you want, and whatever name you
want. Now you buy Netspend cash cards with cash at various locations, go home to your computer, type the number on the
back of the card into their website, and the money is added to your account.
Now if you want to buy something with a credit card (Master Card), access your account online and request a credit card
number. It will generate a legitimate mastercard number, complete with the 3 digit cvc2 number and expiration date. This
number will work for one purchase, and the money will be drawn from your account.
If you want an actual plastic credit card with whatever name you want on it, all you have to do is fork over $10. Tell them what
name you want on the card, and what address you want it sent to (the mailbox you rented with a fake ID that you made with
the help of my novelty ID thread), and you will get it. This card works exactly like a normal Master Card. Vendors can not tell
the two apart, and whatever address you list as the billing address will always be accepted.
This was not popular the first time I posted it because there were a very limited number of places to purchase the netspend
cash cards for adding money to your account, but time has passed and the company has grown. Now you can purchase them
from many more places across the US (sorry non US bees). One such place is the Ace check cashing stores.
<a href="http://www.acecashexpress.com/general/Locations/findstate.html" target="_blank">http://www.acecashexpress.com/

general/Locations/findstate.html</a>
Click that to go to the page of their website where you can find the store closest to you.
If you still can't find a place near you to purchase the netspend cash cards, you should call netspend up, and tell them where
you are, because chances are that there are other places that sell their cards.
The only thing you cannot use your netspend credit card for is accessing online porn sites. It will work fine for anything else,
though, including purchasing chemicals from chemical suppliers. Have fun!
I hope this doesn't break the source posting rule. I figured that they are both very big companies, and have nothing to do with
drug making, so it would be OK. If not, then go ahead and delete them.
Also, you don't have to live in the US to have an account. So Rhodium could get an account, and if bees wanted to donate
funds to the hive, they could create an account, purchase cash cards, deposit them to their account, then transfer money
straight from their account to Rhodium's account. Purchases using the master card number cost $1, but netspend account to
account transfers are free.
Rhodium could then use the money as credit card purchases, or he could take any old cash card (someone trusted would have
to mail him one) to an ATM and withdrawal cash. Then he could use this money to buy stereo's, DVD players, hookers, etc
No comments? Nothing?
I thought for sure that this and my Novelty ID thread would be interesting to many here.
Let me help. If you want chemicals and other "hot" items, you don't want to buy them with your real credit card and you don't
want them shipped to your real address, or you will end up getting busted.
So make yourself a fake ID. It's not hard, it's easier than most of the chemical syntheses here. Make a fake gas bill as a
second form of identification. This is even easier to do than the ID. Then use these forms of ID to rent a mail box from one of
those mail box rental places. Then open a netspend account, put some money in it, have them send you a credit card to your
mail box. Now you can buy chemicals from shady online chemical suppliers and have them sent to your mailbox. Give the
address as something like:
Mr. Fake Name

5280 Crackhead St. #124, 143 (where #124 is the suite number for the business and 143 is your mailbox #)
Some City, TX 78666
Now you have access to whatever chemicals you want and you can stop trying to salvage traces of impure chemicals from OTC
sources.
The next time I see someone complain about chemical aquisition problems, I'm going to flame their ass, then link them to
my Novelty ID thread and this thread.
Oh yeah, and don't stick with the same mailbox too long, rent a new one every couple months (or more frequently if you are a
paranoid tweaker).
Rhodium:
So there - I have now checked it out and it sounds good. I will test the service, and then see if it is fully suitable for our needs
- but at least it seems so. Great find MM!
End Usefulness of thread. The rest is an off topic (but informative) portion on anon mailboxes and drops, etc.
Enjoy!
PrimoPyro
Eliteforum August 7th, 2002, 09:43 PM

Credit cards have nothing to do with this forum, and I don't think the members like these kinds of posts.

Then I am sorry.
If the consensus is that it does not have value here then I will gladly have it removed. Mods the decision is up to you. If it
does not belong then by all means delete it.
PYRO500 August 7th, 2002, 10:08 PM

a credit card could be considered a "tool" of our trade to those wishing to invest in crime and since there are certain
"techniques" that are required to get them anonymously then I think the topic fits this section.
I know paypal also does the credit card number masquerade thing and I think there are a few other ways that you can do the
same. I found that pay pal has been fairly reliable and can be also aquired anonymously with monsy transferred into it
through other accounts or I think you can mail them money orders. The only problem is that pay pal has been frezing peoples
accounts (mainly sattelite hackers) without warning tying up their money for a long time and inlike a bank they are not
federally insured and if they were to fail some potential customer could stand to loose pretty much all their account cash.

Not to mention that paypal takes a cut of whatever you transfer/store there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]"
src="eek.gif" />
There's a few sites dedicated to hating paypal, a few are:
<a href="http://www.fuckpaypal.com" target="_blank">www.fuckpaypal.com</a>

<a href="http://www.paypalsucks.com" target="_blank">www.paypalsucks.com</a> (all same site, just redirection URLs)
<a href="http://www.nopaypal.com" target="_blank">www.nopaypal.com</a>
Edit - forgot to mention my point on this topic! - Personally I don't feel that these kinds of topics help the forum, this forum is
about all things chemistry and improvised weaponry (and now bio weapons). Fraud in anyway shape or form, is yes a tool, but
not a tool which is an addition to this site.
[ August 07, 2002, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: Eliteforum ]
nbk2000 August 7th, 2002, 11:21 PM

Anon CC#s have PLENTY of uses in our field. Just like with drug manufacturers, we too have to worry about the "correctness" of
our chemical purchases and whether or not someone may decide it is "suspecious" and call (whoever) on us about it.
Paypal wants actual bank account info, and that requires ID and all that "know your customer" bullshit. I'd rather not have to
go through the hassle of getting or making a fake ID just to get a useable CC#.
Did anyone from the hive ever test this out to make sure it worked at advertised? This could have application for here as well.

Taken from a web site that has lost money to pay pal:

Helvetica">
We are a POWER SELLER at ebay & used paypal extensively as a method of accepting payments for the last 2 years with no
issue but recently we found out how people could easily get ripped using paypal and paypal would not do anything to help you.
Here are the details of what has happened and because of the new twist today we are going to change the way we do business
on the net
Unfortunately we used paypal to pay "WORLD WIDE DISTRIBUTION" $1575.00
After 10 days of not receiving the items or any contact we filed a complained with paypal.
Here is what paypal said
"They'll put negative in sellers account & they will allow seller 30 days to ship the item. They don't do anything for 30 days". In
the meanwhile there is no hold on seller account & they can still accept payments from other people and rob them blind.
During the 30 days the seller closes his bank account, shuts of the business and runs with all the money and amazingly
paypal comes back with a response "SORRY WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING" and we apologize that you lost 1500 and if you don't
want to use paypal that is fine too, we got a huge customer base."
This is what we get from using paypal. No have totally stop using paypal to send payments. As a seller paypal is great and we
are primarily a seller but we want to let people know that when they are sending money through paypal it is not safe even
though they claim it is. Read the fine print is say they might not be able to recover all funds.
We lost $1475 (payment was in the amount of $1575 and they refunded us $118 with a sorry email and no more support even
though we are a premier business account and so called 24 hours support).
Here is the copy of email from paypal
"Our investigation has revealed that the seller is at fault. We are pleased to inform you that we were able to recover funds
from
the sellers account. Your account has been credited $118.48. Please allow up to 5 days to see the adjustment on your account.
This amount is the maximum we were able to recover."
So they are pleased by refunding $118.48 out of $1575.00. We called them several times and talked to this and that but no
results. Someone using paypal suggested to go to the credit card merchant and ask for their help. We did that and they said
no problem we will fight because they indicated lot of people are having problems with paypal. They even had specially people
that handled paypal which was shocking to us. So they stopped payment to paypal and in response paypal restricted our
account so that we can't withdraw money form it (yes we can still accept money from people but not withdraw from account so
everything goes in paypal account) and they charged our other credit card automatically. In order to reinstate our account we
need to go through lot of paperwork including an affidavit indicating that it is legal for paypal to withdraw any amount from our
bank. Now we locked payment of around 1000.00 plus the 1475.00 we initially lost and how much more we get in payments.
Now you decide if you want to use paypal or not.

<hr /></blockquote>And it's true that you need a lot of information to
get a pay pal account. Not that I've tried.
Again I'd never try to use that kind of information, specialy if it was taken from a place like the Hive, sounds too much like a
setup to me.
EP August 8th, 2002, 12:15 AM

From the lasted issue of PC Magazine (sorry for any typos, I can't copy and paste from a magazine :p )
+++
"Virtual I.D.
A new spin on credit card protection
To alleviate security concerns about online transactions, credit card companies have begun offering custormers temporary
account numbers for single transations so that onlines merchants nver have possesion of the customers real account numbers.
Using Controlled Payment Numbers, a technology developed by Orbiscom, Citibank has launched a service called Vitural
Account Numbers, which generates a random, substitute account number for each online purchase (CitiCard holders can
register for free at <a href="http://www.citicards.com)" target="_blank">www.citicards.com)</a> Citibank stores the real credit
card numbers and does not tranismit it over the internet or give it to merchants.
'If someone finds the credit card number, they wouldn't be able to do anything with it', explains Rob Leathern, a Jupiter
research analyst. The Virtual Account Number 'is good only for that short period of time or that single transaction.'
Leathern wars, however, of other vunerabilities. 'Our research shows that 53 percent of consumers use the same user password
at all or most web sites they visit. Financail information keyed into a user name and password that have been used on another
site is vunerable.'
+++
So it's not exactly the same thing, but pretty similar in some ways, suggesting this Netspend thing may be valid.
megalomania August 8th, 2002, 03:24 AM

This is actually quite interesting information for The Forum. There are plenty of legit reasons to use this type of service, and
certainly it can help keep the jack booted thugs from busting in your door even when you haven't done anything wrong (the
DEA is not concerned with such trivial concepts such as innocence, search warrents, or giving your property back).
I use my credit card a lot, and I hate being targeted by telemarketers. All those stupid commercials... the phone calls... even
my own credit card company is bad. I worry about the national spending database, and it being sold so everybody knows what
I make, buy, eat, how far I drive, and all that.
It's not that I do anything wrong with my credit cards, its just that I feel it may BECOME wrong. Who knows with the laws these
days what they are up to. I would like to be able to spend without being tracked. I am also looking for ways to launder money,
and screw the tax man (heh heh) hypotheticially of course.
One of these days 'they' will know what you eat when you buy groceries, how far you drive buy you gas consumption, what
cloths you wear, what toys you buy, basicially everything about you. It will all be sold to the highest bidder so they can target
ads made just for you. Well they will not pry the last dollar from my fist...
I would consider this to establish a cell phone account, or a regular phone. With a fictitious name I can keep the
telemarketers, the bill collectors, and all the other people I don't like away.
I could use a fake name at the grocery store where I can use my credit card and still use their 'discount' card with confidence.
Oh the possibilities...
Arkangel August 8th, 2002, 06:51 AM
Useful stuff Primo, ta.
Regarding transactions being traced, it's something I have worried about quite a bit, and the main way I try to avoid that is by
using cash as much as I can. They will still have a record of you removing it from your account, but not what you then do with it
(Or do they record note numbers as they go through ATM's?)
We're so used to the convenience of plastic that it's an effort to do anything different. Obviously it doesn't work for everything,
but every little helps
nbk2000 August 8th, 2002, 09:25 AM

here's the catch:
...all we need to do is to verify your name, address, telephone number...
In other words, they want state issued ID, plus current phone bill. :p
Soo...this just means you need to find a wino with ID, print up a bogus phone bill with a payphone # as your "home phone
number", and have the card mailed to a maildrop as the "home address". :)
I'm still waiting for them to have these things at a vending machine where you just feed it the money and it spits out the card.
:( Probably never happen though because that'd be too much like "money laundering" for the governments tastes.
There's an ace checkcashing place right down the road from me. I'll have to stop in soon and ask them about these. If it's
possible to fake 'em out without major hassle (about the ID), then these'd be nice for ordering stuff over the 'net from places
that only sell to credit card holders (because they want to be able to trace the orders), things like ballistic materials, chemicals,
etc.

Seems pretty useful information to me, only I do not live in the US. :(
For those being bothered by telemarketeers: <a href="http://www.bythom.com/telemarket.htm" target="_blank">how to fool

telemarketeers</a>

1st of all, YES this has been tested by myself and a couple others at The Hive. It works. I have never opted for the physical
card since all my suppliers have websites with online ordering. The other members at The Hive, especially the person who
authored this post (he told me about this long before he made it public) provide useful information that is checked before
being accepted as true.
This is precisely why I included the reply from Rhodium where he stated it has his approval. As for not trusting the Hive, so be
it. That is your prerogitive, but you are shutting yourself out from tons of useful information you will likely not discover
elsewhere. Many processes and techniques have been devised by the members themselves. We do not allow misinformaton,
no acceptions.
2.You only have to provide this information on yourself if you *just have to have* a real CC. If you just want the one-time-use
number, all they need is an email address, and they even state that it can be anonymous. If you want a truly anonymous
email, it's as simple as registering from a public library that you do not have a library card from.
I personally MUCH prefer the one time use number. The physical card retains its number, and makes it easier to track.
Imagine doing some sort of investigation trying to track purchases when each one is made under different purchase
information that all lead to dead ends pretty quickly. Simple fact: You, the investigator, are fucked.
Megalomania: Have you seen <a href="http://www.e-gold.com" target="_blank">http://www.e-gold.com</a> ? Wonderful

potential for moving money throughout and out of/into the country. This has also been considered for anonymous donations
because they are global whereas netspend is currently US only.
PrimoPyro

PrimoPyro - Your admitting that you've used stolen credit card information for fraudulent use! If I were you I'd edit your post
sharpish.
Ctrl_C August 8th, 2002, 02:55 PM

Very useful indeed. I may have to use this as a primary money source. I wonder if I can go to these kiosks and put money in
an account with my Visa or Discover. This way you would be trading a regualar credit card for a permanent secure card
essentially.
There are some very bright people over at the Hive which I think is a fact that we can't deny. It is a plethora of knowledge
about all sorts of things besides drugs. Now if we could only change their interests to make them work for us...

Helvetica"> As for not trusting the Hive, so be it. <hr /></blockquote>Shouldn't that be "...so bee it." ?
Also, I just read you can use this in an ATM
[ August 08, 2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Ctrl_C ]
Eliteforum: I have not admitted to anything illegal. This is a legal and profitable business these good old American folks are
running here. What did I purchase from chemical suppliers with my credit card?
Well of course I used my *real* information that they requested, because they didn't request any. I did not lie on anything. I
purchased legal vanillin and various polysaccharides of course, for my experimental research in candy engineering. <img
AFAIK this research is not illegal just yet.
Ctrl_C: Now why would you want to change their interests? That mindset has many advantages, I wouldn't be so quick to turn
someone away from it. Many are just exercising their SHOULD BE right to "self medicate" and as a matter of fact, large scale
processes are shunned and quickly made hush hush because they attract too much negative atention to the site. I see
nothing wrong with personal medication, and whether or not someone else sees a problem with it in my opinion, is irrelevant.
Same thing with gun laws. I own guns, SWIM owns illegal guns (and bombs and drugs) and whoever tells me Im wrong for
owning (legal) guns etc. can go fuck themselves on a poison cactus for all I care. :D
Don't take this wrong, Im not trying to be hostile toward you, not at all. I respect anyone's personal opinion and preference
regarding such a touchy subject; I am just trying to illustrate the connection between altering a person's views about drugs and
altering a person's views about other things. I disagree with A LOT of things that people do, but even so I never vote them
illegal (or would) just because I dont like them. I hate seeing people's personal rights being taken away just because
someone else doesn't like the idea. It's unamerican and it's wrong.
PrimoPyro

Eliteforum, maybe you should stop posting in this thread? As so far, every post you have made has been incorrect.
The anonymous donation could well have uses for theforum, if/when business trading starts, Tshirts etc.
Primo, I think what was meant was that the chemistry knowledge of some of the members at the hive would be well applied
here at theforum. I.e, they've got the brains and there's nothing wrong with that they currently do, but they'd be useful here :)
Energy84 August 8th, 2002, 05:41 PM

OT - Yes, knowledge from The Hive would definately be useful to us as well but unfortunately, many of them probably aren't
interested in our field of chemistry and I'm sure that many of us aren't interested in their's either. I am however, interested in
both, but unfortunately, I only know a small fraction about chem compared to most of you here. I'm working on it though,
slowly... :(
This MaDMax guy sounds like he'd fit right in at Lockdown! if it were still up and running. Oh wow, sudden overflow of ideas...
sorry it's still off topic, but using these types of methods for payments would likely be an ideal way to have members make
contributions to a forum such as lockdown without being traceable *wink wink nudge nudge at NBK*.

Yes. I'm sorry for rambling. I'll try to tone it down a couple notches with the Hive business. After re-reading through some of
my posts, I seem to mention it quite frequently.
On a last note, sadly yes, the topic of explosives is forbiddon and does not get covered there. The idea of gun and bomb-
toting drug lords doesn't settle well with administration there.
I just personally think that most of our population happen to bee old hippies. [hard laugh]]
PrimoPyro
nbk2000 August 8th, 2002, 09:12 PM

If you can get the CC# without having to give any info, than that'd be perfectly useable as a means of transacting deals
without anyone having to see the other.
(Assuming the buyer trusts the seller not to rip them off)
Buyer transfers $X to sellers CC#. Seller e-mails back location of stashed goods to buyer. The two never have to see each
other, nor know where the other is at.
I could also see this as a way to process stolen money. "Smurf" the loot in $2,000-$3,000 increments at different locations
each day in different cities as you travel across the country. Figure $5,000 each store, several stores a day...a couple hundred
grand in a few weeks. All of it reduced to a PGP encrypted floppy disk of CC#s that fits in your pocket. Non-traceable,
unconnectable, and spendable from anywhere on the planet via the 'net. :)
And you could encode your own "mastercard" using a magnetic encoder, so you don't have to even use their cards. One card,
many numbers, cash anywhere. :D
This would also be useful for people who would like to buy stuff, or pay a website, that they don't want to be connected to by
the police because of social stigma or possible "crimes". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Anyone feel
like buying a T-shirt? :p

I came up with a better variation for Rhodium when this got brought up for donations etc.
Dont even do an account to account transfer. Buy your cash card, and email the number on the back of the card.
Seller logs into his account and enters number, money is deposited. Buyer remains anonymous entirely.
Cash cards come in $10, $50, $100, $250, and $500 if I recal correctly. I know they go up to 500 though.
PrimoPyro
nbk2000 August 9th, 2002, 01:57 AM

The site says that any remaining balance can be either transferred to another CC#, withdrawn from an ATM (if you have a
physical card), or paid out in check (but you have to wait a month for it :().
I'm seeing one CC# for buying a vest, another CC# for a six shot grenade launcher, another.... :D No purchase connectable to
the other through the numbers and, if you're smart, not through the address either.
The site said there's a $3,000 limit on a card. That's plenty.
Ctrl_C August 9th, 2002, 02:26 AM

well not necessarily change their interests...I know that if Hive people didn't exist, drug manufacture would suffer...not good.
but it would be nice to have some of the very talented people there...here also/instead.
probity August 9th, 2002, 04:10 AM

Also, <a href="http://www.privatebuy.com" target="_blank">www.privatebuy.com</a> is another I've used for a while. Just
thought I'd mention it.
Ron McDonald August 10th, 2002, 04:40 AM

A variant of this type of annoymous buying is using an online check. Next time anyone writes you a check copy all the relevant
information, routing number, account number, and the check number. If you are honest you can transfer money into the
persons account just prior to your purchase. Most checking accounts have very high limits, as long as there is money in the
bank. People who manufacture MDMA in my area have used this method a lot. They are not honest, and simply hold onto the
check from JOE BLOW, and use it online check to buy 2000 bucks worth of glassware. The only drawback is that the checks
take forever to clear. My personal favorite pickup point for stuff is office parks. I check the board in front to see which offices
are vaccant, pick one. And then pick it up at the front desk as the new tennant from 302. I personally enjoy the logistics of
annonimous acquistions.
nbk2000 August 24th, 2002, 08:15 PM

Some other uses have come to mind.
For instace, when traveling by Amtrak (train), you don't have to show photo ID if you buy your ticket from the machine using a
credit card because the information is cross checked by the FBI. (That's what it said in the paper.)
I wouldn't try this with the airlines though. :)
Rent cars using a bum with a valid license, thus having a means of travel that can't be traced back to you if spotted.
Buy gas at the pump so no one sees your face to ID you later if it pops up on TV.
All kinds of online reservations for motels/equipment rentals, etc.
There's others I can't remember right now, damn it.

i dont suppose anyone knows a UK based anonymous credit card company
J November 13th, 2002, 04:50 PM

I've looked into this in the past, couldn't find anything :-( On this note, does anybody know what the cc companies check
before giving you a card? As I understand, they check your credit history (how?), and verify your address using the electoral
role.
Eliteforum November 13th, 2002, 08:47 PM

Your credit history comes from the bank, they look at how much your earning, and assume that against any property you
have, then work out how much you can borrow/loan. And if your a liabilty to not pay them back.
To my knowledge anyhow, I maybe wrong.
Sparky November 14th, 2002, 03:23 PM

In civics class (reliable source eh :rolleyes: ) I was told that the credit card companies go to a credit bureau. A credit bureau is
a company, and pretty much all it does is keep track of credit ratings. In Canada there are forms you fill out to prove it's you
then you can get your credit rating from them, for free (minus shipping).
JoeJablomy May 10th, 2004, 04:03 PM

privatebuy claims it's been outlawed, and netspend requires all information for an online account. Does anyone know what the
legal situation is in the US and if there's another way of anonymously spending?
Zerstoren Sie May 11th, 2004, 03:30 AM

privatebuy claims it's been outlawed, and netspend requires all information for an online account. Does anyone know what the
legal situation is in the US and if there's another way of anonymously spending?
Yea, I've been looking into this a bit. Seems that it may have been, though I haven't seen any hard proof. Haven't seen 'em
myself, but I did hear mastercard was doing pre-pay cards, that could be used anonymously. I'd love to know whether one can
still use any of these anonymously or not.

I seem to remember one of the credit card companies offering gift cards around christmas... Hmm, accepted in tens of
thousands of locations... I know tens of millions of places that accept these little pieces of green paper :) I don't know why
anyone would want give someone a gift card instead of cash, but if they work online and such that could be useful.
Aggy May 16th, 2004, 01:51 AM

Netpay offer a card without id checks. You will obviously need a drop but on the plus side it can be funded via e-gold which is
just about as anon a payment system as your gonna get. Wmcards is another one with a $60,000 a month limit however you'll
need a notirized copy of a passport to activate your card which can be sent to them by e-mail so a quick job in photoshop on a
PP template you'll be home and dry. Just make sure the drop you use can't be traced back to you.
htxp://www.netpay.tv
htxp://www.wmcards.com
greenboat958 September 14th, 2006, 12:16 PM

Here's another way to get a quick Anonymous Credit Card with cash. Just goto any AAA Auto Club, tell them you do not have a
membership with them (so they won't have a number linked to you if you do have a membership with them), and give them a
fake name when they ask you for it. They give you a valid giftcard right on the spot. I have used this at two AAA Club stores
and have not had a problem in either. If you find that you have some extra cash on the card at the end, split the bill between
cash and the balance on the card at any resturaunt, hotel, etc. Hell, send it to a friend in a different state and tell them to use
the remaining balance so that any phyisical transactions will be far away from you.
I even opened up a Paypal account & funded it for an E-bay auction "on the same day" with this. A pain, but possible. If
anyone want to know how, just ask.
Pros:
Fast & Easy
Cons:
cost 5.95
one time use (no recharge)
If you loose the card, the only person who can claim the $ is the name you gave them (so give them a best friend's name).
It says "gift card" on the card, not your name (but I have used it at resturaunts, etc. without a hassel).
SE skills (may be off topic):

I guess if you are paranoid, you could always have some story ready, something to the effect that you missheard them when
they asked for YOUR name, and not who the "gift card" was for. May be a distant family relative that you wanted to do
something for, but you don't trust them THAT much to give your information on the card, etc.
Black Soap September 17th, 2006, 12:50 PM

i dont suppose anyone knows a UK based anonymous credit card company
I have been wondering the exact same thing for some time...
any ideas?
++++++++
How about you search the internet for the answer? NBK
nbk2000 January 24th, 2007, 10:11 AM

Here's a website that turns e-gold into cash, paypal, or other forms of payment:
http://www.goldxcash.com/

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > White Noise - Archive file
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View Full Version : White Noise - Archive file

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted November 26, 2000 01:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does any one know of a way(Program Most likely) to generate "White Noise."
FYI: The US Military Funded a Project researching The effects of "White Noise" @ I think the U of S. They found that listening
to White noise makes it so the brain cannot relax because there is no pattern. It is just random Chaos. After extended
exposure(Week or so) to white noise without rest in between you will go crazy.
------------------
"It is Better to Die on Your Feet; Than to Live on your Knees "
--Zappata
Agent Blak----OUT!!
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Poor Man's Pyscological Warfare
*Psychotic Laughing*
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 199
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Test cool-edit-2000 from syntrillium.
It generates white and pink noise and much more.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where can I get this Prog on the NET?
And what is Pink noise?
Phobia
A new voice
Posts: 14
From: New York
Registered: NOV 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have Cool Edit and I just tested the white noise, I can see why it would drive someone crazy. I'll make you a sample wav if
you'd like, just tell me what fequency.
Phobia
A new voice
Posts: 14
From: New York
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is actually a very cool program, I can also make varias tones. I just made one with an 8000 base frequency and it started
to give me a big headache. I can imagine what this would do to someone at an extendend length of time. I have the program
on CD and I'm not sure where it is on the net, I can try to find it for you if you'd like, I beleive my friend knows where it is.
DaRkDwArF
Frequent Poster
Posts: 258
From: Australia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<a href="http://www.download.com" target="_blank">www.download.com</a>
goto search and search for "cool edit 2000"
Bandit
Frequent Poster
Posts: 82
From: U.K.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sound can be cool. White noise is used by the Army, it is broadcasted in between interigations to stop you thinking, relaxing
etc. Other frequencys to try are 13hz and 33hz, these reproduce certain organ freqencys in your body and can 'trip' it. (the first
one will make you shit yourself and the second will make girls come.
Bandit
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahh the so called brown noise they refer to in "The South Park Movie." Thanx DwArF for the link.
Does anyone know what is pink noise?
------------------
--Zappata
Agent Blak----OUT!!
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All it sounds like is static off the Television set or Radio. The stuff we listen to in Psych 20 Was that but it had doors slaming,
Syrins, Finger Nails on the Calk Board, People taking but you could only Make out certain words and barely, etc.
------------------
--Zappata
Agent Blak----OUT!!
Phobia
A new voice
Posts: 14
From: New York
posted November 26, 2000 04:50 PM
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Can anyone tell me some of the other frequencies that have any significance? Maybe a web page of people who research this
stuff? Thanks.
Metal
Frequent Poster
Posts: 137
From: I'm everywhere.
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I'm not exacly sure but I believe that the 7hz frequency causes nasuea(sp) and has some other negative effects. I'll try to
find some kind of a text on it and if I do I'll post it here.
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"Some people just dont deserve to live."
Metal
Frequent Poster
Posts: 137
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Well I couldn't find a file on the 7hz frequency so I'm still not sure about it.
But I did find this to explain what white noise is for those of you who have no idea what it means. <a href="http://
www.howstuffworks.com/question47.htm" target="_blank">http://www.howstuffworks.com/question47.htm</a>
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BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 651
From:
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Are the random sounds of many different people in a classroom considered "whitenoise"?
if so, this may explain why I could never stay awake in school
Seriously though, why is whitenoise considered a weapon? I find it relaxing as hell.
.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
From: somewhere in florida
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I got this off vehmot's site: <pre> ******************* * * * PANDORA'S BOX
* * * * BY DR. RAT * * * *******************Brought to you from the
expansive, well equipped, and very expensively decorated laboratories of Dr. Rat C.I.This box falls into the
prank category. It has little phreak/hack use, except for irritating the hell out of anyone on the phone. It makes
operators more pissed than turning on your carrier for them.A phasor is a device using high intensity sound
to produce pain. I'm sure you have seen phasors (crowd/dog control, pain fields, etc.) for sale
in Information Unlimited ads or catalogs. Unfortunately, these often cost $100 to $1000. Natchly this
wouldn't do for Dr. Rat so I created the poor man's phasor or, Pandora's Box. Producing the sound was easy and the
circuit is probably the simplest meathod to produce a variable sound from a 555 chip. The only drawback to
this box is that you need to use a $13.00 tweeter because it uses so little power and gives the loudest output of high
frequency sound.Parts list with Radio Shack cat. numbers 1. One 555 Timer (RS# 276-1723) 2.
One .01mfd capacitor (RS# 272-131) 3. One 100K variable resistor (RS# 271-1722) 4. One tweeter (RS#
40-1381) 5. One 9v battery 6. Some wire (any kind - Dr. Rat suggest RS# 278-1294)NOTE: You
can change the values of #2 or #3 on the list slightly. But these are extremely easy to find so try to use
them.Circuit for Pandora's Box: \ -9 Volts +9 Volts \ \1 T
8 O / (2 P 7 / / +3 5
6+ 5 4 5 5 
 /\/\ ^SYMBOLS: or
= Wire (Vertical/Horizontal) + = Where two wires cross over each other but don't touch ( =
.01mfd CAPACITOR /\/\ ^ = 100K Variable resistor\ \ \ =
Tweeter / / / NOTE: Pin 1 of the 555 is the pin next to a small dos on top of
the chip. Variable resistors have three leads; the circuit requires only two so connect one wire to the
middle lead and the other wire to either of the outer leads.Here's a pin by pin reading of the wiring in case
the circuit got screwed during transmission:1. Pin 1 connected to the -9v, one lead of the tweeter, and one
end of the capacitor 2. Pin 2 connected to pin 6 and the other end of the capacitor 3. Pin 3
connected to other lead of tweeter and to one lead of the variable resistor 4. Pin 4 connected to pin
8 5. Pin 5 not connected 6. Pin 6 connected to pin 2 and other lead of variable resistor 7. Pin 7
not connected 8. Pin 8 connected to +9v and the pin 4P.S. Works especially well on animals, girls, and
young people because the bones in their ears are smaller. Use the variable resistor to adjust the pitch to
just above the highest pitch you can hear. You might not notice anything at first. After a short time you should fell a
a tingle or buzzing in your neck, ears, or sinus. A little while longer and you should feel a head/neck ache
that grows in pain. Try turning it to an audibal frequency and blasting it through the phone. Remember girls
can hear higher pitches than boys so they can tell when you have it on. Try turning the pitch a little higher so they
can't hear it. Entertain your class during finals. They can't hear anything because it's too high
pitched. Have Fun! Dr. Rat DR. RAT C.I. RAT LABS, S.F., CA
[ March 04, 2003, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: megalomania ]

PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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well, I dont know much about html so can some mod fix this?
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
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it is used for Psychological Warfare and Torture just as LSD and Sleep Deprevation are. It will eventually drive them to the
funny farm(sometimes for good). If you want know if someone knows something or anything about your opperations, etc. Tie
them up and you and you asociates take turn watching them. Ask them Questions if they will not answer or co-operate leave
them alone for a little bit but just let them sit and do nothing(especially sleep). Then come back ask the question again.
continue this till they get an answer. then weigh this agianst the intellegence that you have aready garther. If this is done for
extended periods of time you must allow them to Drink otherwise you could kill them and that is bad. also wear a
disguise(balaclava) when doing this.
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--Zappata
Agent Blak----OUT!!
Phobia
A new voice
Posts: 14
From: New York
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Well, I tried the 7 hz and nothing happened, so I put it on loop and about 10 seconds later my stomach felt incredibly sick, I
turned off the sound and it went away almost immediatly. Looks like we found one, I'm gonna have to keep a list of these.
Please let me know if you find any others.
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 199
From: Germany
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You get Cooledit2000 at <a href="http://www.syntrillium.com" target="_blank">http://www.syntrillium.com</a>
It is aprox. 8 MB large. The serial/crack is available on some cracksites in the net or send me your email for the crack.
Pink noise is a rush noise of all frequencies where the frequencies amplitude run lower the higher the freq. grow. Amp.=1/f
White noise is a rush noise of all frequencies where the frequencies amplitude is the samefor all freqs. Amp.= 1
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 199
From: Germany
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I think whit noise is not useable as a weapon. But a normal 16-20 KHz sine wave (so high freq. that you cant hear it
anymore) distributed from a few piezo horns at maximum power is good. It feels like your head is blown up like a balloon and
your stomach comes up.
Edd
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: england
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you have an audio system that can reproduce 7Hz?! they're all supposed to be limited now because during WWII the germans
dicovered that 9Hz 25 watts at one metre, if played for around ten to fifteen minutes kills people!
Metal
Frequent Poster
Posts: 137
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Hmmmm, recording the 7hz onto a tape recorder and placing it somewhere in a classroom could be entertaining.
Would a recording work? Seeing as how the quality might not be that good.
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Maddoc
Moderator
Posts: 536
From: Dizneland
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Playing a 33hz tone could be funny in class - Picture standing in a corridor and hearing all these females orgasming inside the
room.
Add a few TV cameras, several blank VHS cassettes...
Also, the other day I was messing with the overdrive on my 100watt amp for my E Guitar, strummed the strings to see what it
sounded like.
Felt like my stomach had be blown out of my chest through my back.
---
Put your knives in babies backs...
[This message has been edited by Maddoc (edited November 27, 2000).]
Curious George
A new voice
Posts: 7
From: CA
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Has anyone actually tried the 33hz tone and had it work? Also, is there a list of these on the net somewhere?
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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a tape recorder cant reproduce that low a sound, but if you get a recorder deck and hook it up to your computer, then get it
and hook it up to a good subbwoofer, well you can fugure the rest.
i made tones as low as 7 hz with my computer subwoofer, but the thing shakes like hell!it is kinda wierd, the walls, you can fel
them shake but thesubwoofer is making a quiet ratteling noise!
Metal
Frequent Poster
Posts: 137
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Does anybody have a schematic like the one PYRO500 provided, but to produce a 33hz tone, made out of Radio Shack parts?
I would love to try this thing.
I looked around a bit but couldn't find anything.
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PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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to make a 33 hz tone loud ennough to be effective you would need alot of power! plus you need a sub-woofer to get the
sound right, if you plan to build a unit that you can have in your home look on the internet for a varible sine wave oscilator,
also you would need an amplifier to hook up to it and a good powerful subwoofer system, you might have luck with a base
guitar amp
Metal
Frequent Poster
Posts: 137
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Considering the size it proboably wouldn't be hand-held(that sucks).
Mabey it could be put inside a car and be tested it out next time you go pick up a date.
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Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 199
From: Germany
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No, infra sonic dont kill. It shall have a psychological effect to people when it is distributed with a few thousand watts in the
enviroment(more than 1 meter).
But it is very difficult to obtain a speaker that can reproduce sine wave lower than 25 Hz.
These speakers must be very large.I have seen a speaker from cabasse wich came down to 15 Hz. (If you want one, say good
bye to your money)Other bass-speakers produces a short cut to the amp.. The resistance, 4 or 8 Ohm, drops extreme when
the frequency becomes lower than the specifications of the speaker.(most 35-50Hz)
You can not hear, only feel, real infrasonic . If you hear something it is from your clipping amplifier.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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actualy you can get speakers that can go that low they are called SUBWOOFERS
I hooked mine up to the computer and you must have an amp rated for low frequencys and it must have a low enough signal
not to overload the amp (clipping) I have hooked up a 13 hz tone genorator with a subwoofer that can produce sounds as low
as 7 hz and had windows rattining with it and you can do it at home. in the field of high pitch tones I used to live next door to
a guy that had a sonar transducer and could ping it loud enough to shatter a glass like 3 or 4 feet away! that sob really hurt
my ears with earmuffs on!
Phobia
A new voice
Posts: 14
From: New York
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Anyone know if it is possible to make a small device that can create any of these frequencies? Also, what is the lowest
frequency a standard computer speaker can put out?
Phobia
A new voice
Posts: 14
From: New York
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I've got another question. I have been making and testing some of these frequencies. I got one girl that was willing to test
the 33 hz one and sent her a wav. She said she could hear anything. I have a Sound Blaster Live, is it possible that a
standard SB16 can't put out that low of a frequency?
Curious George
A new voice
Posts: 7
From: CA
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here's the deal with the wav file. She probably does not have a subwoofer in her speaker system. Standard computer
speakers, even high quality ones will not put out a 33hz frequency. In order to do this, you need a subwoofer with the base
turned all the way up. I made the tone, and have checked to see if i can hear it and I can. Now i just need to get a girl over...
=)
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 281
From:
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could someone send me a wav of it at 7hz?
by email
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angelo's place
Machiavelli
Frequent Poster
Posts: 278
From: Germany
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Two ways to produce infrasonic frequencies:
-a gas powered pipe, like used for organs up to now I havent been able to find anything on pipe design and accoustics
-two speakers, transmitting different signals, which through interference create infrasonic
Nice article on the topic <a href="http://www.borderlands.com/newstuff/research/gavreaus.htm" target="_blank">http://
www.borderlands.com/newstuff/research/gavreaus.htm</a>
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
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Hah, sickos. You are almost as bad as the CIA.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
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If you school has a high quality Sound system(Most do). You good Send an ultra low frequence through them durning and
assembly or such. it could be interesting.
*Psychotic Laughing*
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--Zappata
Agent Blak----OUT!!
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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most of you probably can't reproduce the sounds even with subwoofers, mine is from one of those rock concert giant speaker
arrays (says the surplus shop owner) and to tes your freq. capability you need to try a low low freq like 10 hz and play it, you
should not be able to hear it but it should rattle windows
Bandit
Frequent Poster
Posts: 82
From: U.K.
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I seen a car that could produce 43 hz, it wobbled shop windows and keeps smashing his wing mirror.
Bandit
Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 230
From:
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whenever my brother and i competed in USAC sound quality competitions, they would have SPL competitions also. some of
those cars were crazy. they could successfully produce less than 10hz tones. they rattled to no end and there have been
people that have blown out winshields just because of the sheer pressure. i always got sick around the SPL competitions tho
partly because of exhaust fumes and partly because of the sound. sound is pretty crazy shit.
Phobia
A new voice
Posts: 14
From: New York
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I don't use subwoofers, I just have a pair of relativly high quality ear phones and I can definitly feel the effects of the 7hz
sound.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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you are probably not hearing 7 hz and to feel the effects at 7 hz your head would probably explode, the best speakers i have
seen at radioshack are 26 min, mine is a rock concert speaker with a somewhat makeshift and inadequit amplifier, and a big
plywood box under my desk. and it is inadequite for making 7 hz it has gone as low as 10 hz though, not enough to have
much of an effect
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1103
From: Guess
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I saw an article in "New Scientist" about "SASERS". A SASER does for sound what a LASER does for light. Extremely directional,
highly coherent beams of sound. The energy conversion is lousy (less than 1%) but that will change as the technology
matures.
What could you do with a SASER? Cause solid objects to explode from internal resonation, ignite materials from resonant
heating, project sonic holograms (sound that only the target can hear, and no one around him) to make people think the
victim is hearing voices in his head, possible standing wave "force field" of air overpressure that repels people, and all kinds of
other neat shit.
The neat thing about sound as compared to light is that smoke can't stop it, you can't detect it unless it's aimed right at you,
and maybe not even then if it's infra/ultra sonic. No protective coatings will stop sound.
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Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Metal
Frequent Poster
Posts: 137
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WHOA, wish I had one of those.
Do you have a link with more info on it?
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Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
From: Woodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
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Hello all,
here is a paper on 6-10hz, also from Borderland!
Effects of 6-10 Hz ELF on Brain Waves
David S. Walonick
There is evidence that ELF magnetic waves can affect brain waves. These set of
experiments were designed to study the effects of ELF rotating magnetic fields on the brain.
The specific ELF frequencies I was interested in studying are 6-10 Hertz. These frequencies
are the same as those produced by the human brain in the theta and alpha states. Generally,
specific brain wave frequency ranges can be associated with mood or thought patterns.
Frequencies below 8 Hertz are considered theta waves. While these seem to be some of the
least understood frequencies, they also seem to be associated with creative, insightful
thought. When an artist or scientist has the "aha" experience, there's a good chance he or
she is in theta. Alpha frequencies are from 8 to 12 Hertz and are commonly associated with
relaxed, meditative states. Most people are in an alpha state during the short time
immediately before they fall asleep. Alpha waves are strongest during that twilight state
when we're half asleep and half awake. Beta frequencies (above 12 Hertz) coincide with
our most "awake" analytical thinking. If you are solving a math problem, you're brain is
working at beta frequencies. Most of our waking hours as adults are spent in the beta state.
A question of importance is: "If we can electronically shift the brain wave frequencies to
alpha or theta, will a person's moods or thought patterns change to those commonly
associated with those frequencies?". In other words, if we can electronically move a
person's brain waves to the alpha frequencies, will they become more relaxed? Will their
state of consciousness change to coincide with their brain waves, even if those brain waves
were electronically induced? These are important questions with far reaching implications.
When I began these experiments, I was well aware of the possible ethical implications
involved in ELF research. For example, if I were carrying an ELF transmitter operating at
alpha frequencies, would the people around me be affected as well? Would they
unconsciously gravitate toward me because they'd become more relaxed as they moved
closer to me? Would they like me more because they felt "good" when they were around
me? What if a salesman were carrying an ELF transmitter? Would people be influenced to
buy something because they were more relaxed around the salesman? Could entire
populations be influenced to be comfortable with ideas they would normally reject? These,
and many others, are serious ethical considerations involved with ELF research. They
cannot be taken lightly.
I decided to undertake this research with full knowledge of the ethical implications. While
there is the potential for misuse, a desire for knowledge and understanding are part of being
human, and the potential benefits to humanity are great. What if we could treat depression,
insomnia, anxiety, stress and tension with ELF magnetic fields? What if we could increase
intelligence or improve learning? As in any scientific endeavor, there are both positive and
negative potential uses for any discovery. One only need look at the development of atomic
energy to understand the benefits/misuse dichotomy. It is my personal belief that the
potential benefits to humanity justify the research.
I began by collecting all the available research on ELF fields. Lana Harris, a secondary
research specialist, did an excellent job in acquiring virtually all the available research in this
area. In addition to a multitude of published journal articles, several military and NASA
research reports were ordered. A review of the research showed that most studies had
been performed to determine the effects of 50-60 Hertz high voltage power-line fields.
Since these are the frequencies of most of the world's electrical power distribution systems,
the importance of understanding the effects on plant and animal life are evident. To a much
lesser degree, a few researchers had concentrated on lower power and lower frequencies
(the focus of this study).
Equipment
The equipment required for this research was easily attainable, with the notable exception of
a stable frequency counter with .01 Hertz resolution. Accurate frequency measurements
were essential for this research, so I designed and built a digital frequency counter capable
of measuring frequency to the hundredth of a Hertz (plus or minus .005 Hertz). A 100 KHz
crystal Colpitt's oscillator (calibrated with WWV) was used as a time base and divided by
ten to the seventh power to attain the desired resolution.
Other equipment used is: a Biosone II Brainwave Monitor and Myosone 404 EMG
Monitor (Bio-Logic Devices, Inc., 81 Plymouth Rd., Plainview, NY 11803) a Model 3011
Digital Display Function Generator (BK Precision Dynascan Corp., 6460 West Cortland
St., Chicago, IL 60635); and IBM PC compatible computer with a clock speed of 7.16
MHz (the faster the clock speed the better); a SAC-12 A to D signal acquisition board
(Qua Tech, Inc., 478 E. Exchange St., Akron, OH 44308); a Codas II video board and
software release 3 (Dataq Instruments, Inc., 825 Sweitzer Ave., Akron OH 44311); a
Fluke 77 digital multimeter (John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., PO Box C9090, Everett, WA
98260); and StatPac Gold statistical analysis software (Walonick Associates, Inc., 6500
Nicollet Ave. S., Minneapolis, MN 55423).
The transducer was a 24" diameter hand-wound coil, consisting of 1000' of #25 magnetic
wire. The coil had a DC resistance of 32.4 ohms. It was mounted on a 26" square piece of
bakalite board for stability. Two dowels were mounted with plastic ties onto the board so
they extended 24" from opposite sides of the board and the entire apparatus was secured
by two microphone stands.
Experimental Design
All twenty-two subjects were friends or acquaintances of the author. There was no
remuneration to participants. The excitement or novelty of participating in a brain wave
research experiment seemed to provide sufficient reward in and of itself.
Subjects were sent a pre-experiment letter briefly describing the intent of the experiment and
what they could expect. They were asked not to use any drugs or alcohol for 24 hours
before their appointment, and not to wear any metal jewelry. (It was thought that metal
jewelry might distort the magnetic field, thus creating uncontrolled inconsistencies between
subjects.)
Upon arrival at the laboratory, participants were given a short orientation to the procedure
and any questions they had were answered. They were hooked up to the EEG monitor
(frontal to occipital, midline) and then allowed to listen to a relaxation tape for five minutes.
The purpose of the relaxation tape was to establish a "relaxation level" baseline and to
relieve some of the anxiety associated with the experiment. At the end of five minutes, the
headphones were removed and the subject was told they were at a relaxation level of 5 on a
scale from zero to ten (0 being very tense and 10 being very relaxed). This was the baseline
they were to use for reporting their relaxation level following each ELF exposure. Subjects
were told that they could choose to stop the experiment at any time.
Each ELF exposure consisted of a ten second, sine-wave transmission separated from one
another by 45 - 60 seconds of no exposure. The voltage fed to the coil was 3.1 VAC
(RMS). The coil was positioned 18" in front of the subjects head. The outputs from the ELF
transmitter (function generator) and the brain wave monitor were fed directly into the
computer A to D board, allowing both to be displayed on the computer monitor (and
recorded on disk) simultaneously. The sampling rate of the A to D converter was set at
2000 samples per second for the entire experiment. This was sufficient to visually detect
differences of .1 Hertz between the ELF and brain wave frequencies. Subjects were not
told when a transmission was beginning. However, at the end of each transmission, they
were asked to "report". This was their current relaxation level based on the zero to ten
scale. They also reported any feelings they had experienced and these were recorded
verbatim. Twenty-one frequencies were presented to each subject (from 6 to 10 Hertz in
increments of .2 Hertz. For half the subjects, these frequencies were randomly selected. For
the other subjects, they began at 10 Hertz and were decreased by .2 Hertz with each
transmission. Subjects were not told the order of frequencies that would be presented to
them.
Post acquisition software was used to visually examine the coherence (frequencies) and
synchronously (phase relationship) between the transmitted ELF and prominent brain
waves.
Results
Examination of the computer data revealed substantial differences between subjects. Some
subjects showed lock-on (entrainment) over a wide frequency range, while other subjects
showed no lock-on whatsoever. In general, lock-on occurred most frequently from 8.6 to
10 Hertz and less frequently below 8.6 Hertz.
One subject displayed lock-on for all frequencies from 7.4 to 10 Hertz. Two subjects
displayed no lock-on over the entire frequency range. While I did not test a sufficient
number of subjects to be statistically significant, I suspect that susceptibility to ELF
entrainment follows the normal (bell-shaped) curve. At this time, I do not have any
hypothesis that would allow us to predict who is susceptible and who is not.
Several interesting observations were readily apparent. Lock-on generally occurred very
rapidly... within a quarter of a second in most cases. If lock-on did not occur at a specific
frequency in the first second, it didn't at all. When the brain did lock on, the amplitude of the
brain waves increased to nearly double their normal size. This is typical for naturally
(non-ELF) produced alpha patterns. The brain locked on to higher frequencies (9-10 Hertz)
more readily, and maintained the lock-on for the entire duration of the transmission. As the
frequency was lowered (below 8.6 Hertz), lock-on for most subjects occurred in bursts,
rather than being continuous. For example, there might be immediate lock-on for two
seconds; then the brain would "fight" the ELF frequency for a quarter of a second, and then
lock-on again for another few seconds, etc.. I use the word "fight" because it looked like the
brain was fighting the ELF to maintain its own frequency. The "fight" was characterized by
low amplitude beta frequencies in the 15-20 Hertz range. These may, of course, have simply
been analytical type thoughts, but they were not observed when the frequency was in the
9-10 Hertz range. This "fight" became more frequent as the frequency was lowered, until no
lock-on was observed at all.
None of the subjects were able to consciously detect the presence of the ELF field. One
female subject was able to detect whenever the field started or ended, but could not
accurately say when if it was on or off at any given time. In other words, she was able to
detect the change in the magnetic field, but not the presence or absence of the magnetic field
itself. She thought she felt it because it aggravated her sinuses. When lock-on occurred, the
brain waves lagged behind the transmitted ELF. This appeared to have been the "reaction
time" of the brain to the ELF waves (approximately 60-80 milliseconds). More accurate
experimentation is needed to explore this relationship.
Subjects verbatim reports were quite revealing. (Keep in mind that none of the subjects
actually said they felt the ELFs.) The most common verbatim reports occurred between 8.6
and 9.6 Hertz. Common statements were subtle "tingling" sensations in the fingers, arms,
legs, teeth, and roof of the mouth. Two subjects reported a "metallic" feeling in their mouth.
One subject reported a "tightness" in the chest and another subject reported a "tightness" in
the stomach. Several subjects also reported sensations when the ELF frequency was
between 6 and 7 Hertz. The verbatim responses in this range were "ringing" in the ears,
"flushed" face, "fatigued", "tightening" in the chest and "increasing" pulse.
Lock-on occurred at lower frequencies more often when the transmitted frequencies were
progressively lowered, rather than randomly presented. It would seem that the brain prefers
a gradual lowering of frequency rather than a sudden or abrupt change in frequency. This
may have been due to the extremely short duration of each transmission (10 seconds). It
may be that this effect would disappear if longer transmission times were used.
There was no significant correlation between subjects reported level of relaxation and the
ELF frequency or the occurrence of lock-on. Again, this may have been due to the
extremely short duration of each transmission.
Summary
It is clear from these experiments that brain waves do in fact lock on to artificially produced
ELFs in the 6 - 10 Hertz range. It is equally clear that the 10 second transmission was not
sufficient to alter subjects moods to any consistent degree.
Additional Observations
Since my original experiment, I have continued to study the interaction of ELF's and brain
waves. These mini-experiments were conducted more informally than my original
experiment and the observations are based on only one or two subjects. They should be
considered only observations until confirmed by additional study.
1. A sine wave produces lock-on more readily than a square wave or a triangle wave. A
sine wave output produces a rotating magnetic field where there is a gradual build up,
collapse and reversal of the field intensity. A square wave output produces a pulsed
alternating magnetic field where the build-up, collapse and reversal of the magnetic field is
more abrupt.
2. The brain is sensitive to a wide range of intensities. I have observed lock-on with power
settings down to one half of a milliwatt.
3. Psychics and "sensitives" are neither more or less prone to lock-on than anyone else. I
have tested two well-known psychics and a Kahuna from Hawaii. While all three subjects
produced more alpha that usual, it was not related to the ELF generator and they did not
show unusual lock-on. It is interesting to note, that the woman who could "feel" when the
field switched off and on (in my first experiment) was one of these psychics.
4. Extended exposure to ELF's does alter moods, but the effect is subtle. I was not able to
duplicate the "dramatic psychoactive" effect that Robert Beck has reported. Low
frequencies (below 8 Hz) seem to produce a general agitation or uneasiness, while higher
frequencies (8.6-10 Hz) produce a general feeling of relaxation. These are not profound
effects like drug induced mood changes. The subject is not aware of any change in his
consciousness or mood. From his perspective, nothing has changed. However, an outside
observer can detect subtle changes (e.g. body movement). I have confirmed this by
monitoring muscle activity with an EMG monitor.
5. I have exposed myself to ELFs for one and two hour durations and have found that the
frequencies from 8.6 to 9.8 Hertz to be sleep inducing; however, it is impossible to eliminate
the placebo effect from experiments I performed on myself.
6. I built and distributed several portable ELF generators for testing. I have received many
reports that indicate that falling asleep with the ELF generator operating is probably not a
good idea. People don't feel rested when they sleep with the ELF generator on. My
personal experience supports this. ELF's may inhibit dreaming which is necessary for normal
brain functioning.
7) I have found three definite beneficial uses for the ELF generator: a) for relaxation, b) to
eliminate jet lag, and c) the elimination of seizures in a dog.
The Story of Maynooth

Shortly after completing my first experiments, my neighbor's dog began to have seizures.
Maynooth was a one year old, 190 pound Irish Wolfhound. His seizures were occurring
four to five times a week. A seizure by a 190 pound dog is not a small affair. He would
trash around wildly with no awareness of his surroundings. The seizures would last 10-30
minutes.
My neighbors took Maynooth to the vet, who prescribed phenobarbital to control the
seizures. The drug was not effective and Maynooth continued to have regular seizures.
After discussing Maynooth's condition with my neighbor, we decided to try a portable ELF
generator that Maynooth could wear to control his seizures. Seizures are accompanied by
wild fluctuations in brain wave activity. We hypothesized that a portable ELF generator
could control the seizures by stabilizing Maynooth's brain waves. If we could get
Maynooth's brain to lock-on to an ELF frequency, we could in effect, eliminate the seizures.
I constructed a portable ELF generator about the size of a pack of cigarettes. The ELF
generator was powered by a nine volt battery and had two frequencies, selectable by a
toggle switch (10.0 Hz and 7.83 Hz). The 10 Hz frequency was chosen because previous
experiments had shown that lock-on was more likely to occur at higher frequencies (i.e.,
closer to the prominent frequency of the brain). The 7.83 Hz frequency was chosen because
it is the resonant frequency of the Earth and naturally occurring low intensity magnetic
radiation can be detected at this frequency (Schumann, 1952).
The schematic for the portable ELF generator is illustrated. It is a twin-T oscillator followed
by a high power 386 amplifier. The twin-T was chosen because of its high stability and low
distortion sign wave. Construction is straight forward and the placement of parts is not
critical. All parts are readily available. The two 10K frequency adjustment pots should be
10-20 turn trim pots to allow precise frequency adjustment. The 10K output level
adjustment pot should be set so that the output feeding the coil is less that 100 milliwatts to
comply with FCC regulations (I set Maynooth's to 10 milliwatts). The coil itself is not critical
and can be wound on any iron core. Use only an alkaline or nickel-cadmium battery.
Maynooth began wearing the generator in the spring of 1988. We tried the 10 Hz frequency
first. The results of the experiment were astounding to say the least. Maynooth's seizures
stopped immediately when he began wearing the generator. Furthermore, Maynooth was
able to completely stop taking the phenobarbital and the seizures have remained in
remission. For the first three months, Maynooth wore the generator all the time in a cloth
pouch from his collar. After that, the generator was only used at night and simply placed
near his sleeping area.
Maynooth has had a total of three seizures following his first use of the generator. Two of
these could be traced to malfunctions with the generator. The first was a broken wire from
the battery connector and the second was a dead battery. The third seizure could not be
explained by a hardware malfunction, although Maynooth was only using the generator
during the night and the seizure occurred during the day. It should be noted, however, that
this seizure was mild in comparison to his prior episodes.
Maynooth's owners were so convinced of the efficacy of the ELF generator, that they asked
me to make a spare generator in case the one they had broke. Maynooth's vet (at the
University of Minnesota) showed curiosity in the generator, but not enough to explore it
further. They preferred to remain with a drug treatment, even though it had proven to be
ineffective. Fortunately, Maynooth's owners had more sense.
Maynooth still uses the ELF generator in his sleeping area at night. The rechargeable battery
is charged during the day so it is fresh each night. (The battery lasts about 6-8 hours at a 10
milliwatt power setting).
Andrija Puharich's Watch

Dr. Andrija Pucharich sells a watch that he claims will work a shield for ambient high
frequency ELF's (40-100 Hz). An important feature of this watch would include shielding
from 60 Hz power lines. I had the opportunity to try one of his watches for a few days. The
owner was quite reluctant to part with it so I had to run all tests over just one weekend.
It is quite easy to monitor ambient 60 Hz radiation being absorbed by your body. Simply
touch the probe of any oscilloscope and you can watch the 60 Hz wave. Your body is
acting as an antenna and the amplitude on the oscilloscope is an indication of the amount of
radiation you're absorbing. I found no difference in the amplitude when I was wearing the
watch or when it was removed by a distance of four miles.
I attempted to determine if there was any measurable magnetic output from the watch. I
used a large roll of magnetic wire as a pickup coil and connected it to the input of an EEG
monitor with five microvolt sensitivity. The EEG voltage was fed directly to the A to D
board of the computer. The equipment was tested for proper functioning by bringing a
magnet in proximity to the pickup coil. A weak magnet moving within six inches of the
pickup coil would drive the EEG monitor into saturation. The watch was placed against the
coil but I could not pick up any magnetic fields from the watch. This surprised me because I
was using very sensitive equipment and the watch had to be producing a magnetic field
because it was using a battery. Anytime there is a current flowing (even the small current
required to power a watch), there is always a magnetic field created. Either the watch was
cancelling it's own magnetic field or my equipment was not sensitive enough to measure it.
(It turned out to be the latter).
The final test was to hook myself up to the EEG monitor while I was wearing the watch. The
output was fed into the computer so that I could do posthoc analysis. I wore the watch for
15 minutes and recorded my brain waves. The incidence of beta and alpha frequencies was
not different from my "usual" brain waves. I could not substantiate Puharich's claim that the
watch would act as a filter with a center frequency of 10 Hz. This particular finding may not
be accurate because my excitement with the experiment may have inhibited the alpha
centering that Puharich refers to.
Since I had told the person I borrowed it from that I'd take good care of the watch, that
precluded the idea of disassembling it. I carried the watch with me in my backpack that
weekend. As luck would have it, the back cover of the watch fell off and I got to examine
the inside.
It is a digital "over-the-counter" type watch. As far as I could tell, the watch was normal in
every way except that there was a square sheet of copper (about 1 cm square), wrapped in
plastic packing tape inside the back cover. The tape was obviously used to insulate the
copper from the electronics of the watch and the back cover.
With the copper removed, my equipment could still not detect the magnetic fluctuations
produced by the watch. If the copper sheet does do anything, my equipment was not
sensitive enough to measure it. This indicates that the amplitude of the magnetic field
produced by the watch was very low, probably around the amplitude of the naturally
occurring magnetic fluctuations of the earth.
I do not know whether Puharich's watch works. It did not reduce the electromagnetic
radiation that my body was absorbing, nor did it alter my brain wave pattern in any way I
could detect. My current understanding of ELF's, electronics and magnetics does not
provide a theoretical foundation for the efficacy of the watch.
Electromagnetic Pollution
When I began my research, I was only interested in the effects of ELF's on brain waves. I
have since come to believe that ELF's are only the tip of the iceberg. Electromagnetic
radiation may be the most harmful pollutant in our society. There is mounting statistical
evidence that cancer and other diseases can be triggered by electromagnetic waves.
ELF pulse-modulated radio waves work at the cellular level. Cancer and birth defects have
been increasing in this country since about 1950 (as television became popular). The
average resonant frequency of the body is around 82 MHz. It is no coincidence that this is
near the middle of the VHF TV band.
Even low intensity 60 Hz fields are capable of causing DNA damage and weakening the
immune system. Cancer cells exposed to 60 Hz electromagnetic fields for 24 hours show a
sixfold increase in their growth rate.
The evidence is becoming overwhelming that cellular functions can be switched on and off
through frequency specific electromagnetic radiation that induces nuclear magnetic
resonance in the cell. We may find that many diseases can be caused or cured by frequency
specific radiation that is ELF pulse modulated.
In our technological society, there are few places to go where you will not be exposed to
electromagnetic radiation. Television, radio and microwave radiation are abundant in all
metropolitan areas. High voltage 60 Hz power lines crisscross the country. Microwaves
(one of the most dangerous) are becoming increasingly common. The FCC has started to
grant licences to use microwaves for cellular phones.
The powers that control the energy and communications industries will stop at no end to
prevent the public from learning the truth. Their financial health depends on it. Since the
military is one of the largest producers of high power electromagnetic radiation, it is not
likely that we can count on government intervention.
We have probably reached a point where the only solution is in the form of a portable shield
device. ELF generators may be one possible solution. My current research is in this area.
------------------
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although a nice article, note he talks about ELF, not sonic energy.
Edd
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: england
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if the SASER is what i think you're talking about, it couldn't be used for anything like "destroying a building". the device uses
ultrasound as a carrier for auidlbe sound. at the moment it has no ability to carry bass tones, or infrasound. it would however
be great for the mentioned stalker application.
Curious George
A new voice
Posts: 7
From: CA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Success!!!
I had my girlfriend come over and i tried out the 33hz tone. I used my computer subwoofer and played the 33hz tone that i
made with cool edit 2000. Now she did nto get off, but she definitely said she felt it and it was a major turn on. She also said
that it made no difference if she could here the sound or not, it worked either way. I also had success with the 7hz, but i still
am not willing to try the 13hz that supposedly makes you shit yourself. Other than 7, 13, and 33, are there any others????
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems I hit a Nerve with this. Using what function do you set the fequencey of the tone?
Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 230
From:
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hmm....my school's com system is accessible through the phones in every classroom. take my rio...put 33hz on it...broadcast
throughout school. i'm sure this would bring me much entertainment.

Curious George
A new voice
Posts: 7
From: CA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
to make a tone with cool edit, you make a new file. click on generate, click on tone. Set the tone to 33 or 7 or 13 or whatever,
then set your time in the bottom, and click generate. Then save it as an mp3 or wav. It's pretty easy.
Edd
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: england
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you say it worked on your girlfriend? i asked a friend of mine to give it a go and she just said "you made my bum vibrate. well
done." what power is your subwoofer? plus i'm assuming it's active?
J
Moderator
Posts: 605
From: United Kingdom
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A school comms system will not go down to 33Hz I guarantee you. You need a good quality woofer to get down below 40Hz. If
you can find a speaker with a resonant frequency of 33Hz, you've hit the jackpot.
As for 7Hz, I've never seen a speaker that will go that low, and I'de be suspicious of any sub-woofer whose makers claimed it
would go below about 20Hz unless it was very expensive.
------------------
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I can, I will drive arround town with this shit on (the 33hz). Or mabye the 13, with a buttplug, of course. My first target will be
the cop shop, then the school, then the military base (my school), and last the houses in my town. I really hope this will work
for me (im not exactly a genius with electronics or computers, but I can use them)!
sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok i got a question i got this magazine in the mail and it had someting in it called the mind mollestor it was a small thing no
speaker and it had a loop on it and it would emit a few second sound every so often i forgot how often and i lost the mag so i
dont got nemore info on it but it said it was a high pitch sound that would make the people go nuts tryin to find it does neone
know how to make this one?
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1103
From: Guess
posted December 01, 2000 06:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a URL for a site that explains the concepts behind the SASER. It's in french so use babelfish or other web translator to
get the quist of it. If you don't what what babelfish is look at the bottom of this post.
<a href="http://www.physique.usherb.ca/attracte/09-2000/saser.htm" target="_blank">http://www.physique.usherb.ca/attracte/
09-2000/saser.htm</a>
While a SASER is currently limited to ultrasound, it won't always be. Just as lasers started out in the microwave range they've
now been expanded into almost all wavelengths just as SASERs will eventually.
Hell, even an ultrasonic SASER would be useful for projecting painful beams of ultrasound making a victim deathly ill.
Maybe on day they'll come up with a real life sonic screwdriver (Dr. Who). Sci-Fi I know but one can always hope.
Am I the only one here who, seeing mention of something interesting, bothers to look for it using search engines? They're out
there for a reason you know, use them.
------------------
blade
A new voice
Posts: 33
From: sweden
posted December 02, 2000 03:50 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
has any of you got a working crack? i cant find a single one that works!
------------------
// Blade
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
From: the cretaceous period
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
check these out <a href="http://www.spy-store.com/SonicNausea1.html" target="_blank">http://www.spy-store.com/
SonicNausea1.html</a>
very useful for getting back at people
Edd
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: england
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
could you please post the url for the schematic of the portable ELF generator?
Thanks
Metal
Frequent Poster
Posts: 137
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blade, go to: <a href="http://us.astalavista.box.sk/" target="_blank">http://us.astalavista.box.sk/</a>
You should find at least one working crack there.
------------------
MrReTaRdEd
Frequent Poster
Posts: 97
From: im not saying
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Being the average amerian highschool student that I am. I have no clue about wave leangth. Thats what all that Hz stuff is
refering to right? What do the numbers mean?
Madoc what kind of guitar do you have? A 100 watt amp is not that powerful. Even with the overdrive on. And what do you
mean by E guitar? are you refering to the E string and if so which one?
Jhonbus
Frequent Poster
Posts: 346
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hz is short for Hertz, the unit of frequency. one Hertz means one wave per second.
Wavelength is related to the frequency by the equation speed = frequency * wavelength. So the wavelength of a 33Hz
soundwave (speed = about 340 metres per second) is the speed/frequency = 340/33 = 10.3 metres.
The wavelength of a 33Hz radio wave would be 299 700 000/33 = about 9 081 818 metres. I can't think offhand what sort of
frequencies ELF radio are, but I think they are a lot greater than tens of Hz.
Aha - about 10kHz down to about 300Hz. So wavlengths of between about 30 kilometres and 1000 kilometres.
------------------
A physicist can make a bigger explosion than a chemist ever did
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/</a>
[This message has been edited by Jhonbus (edited December 06, 2000).]
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you dont happen to hold an ametuer radio operators liscence do you jhonbus?
viper01
Frequent Poster
Posts: 77
From: UK
Registered: DEC 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have any of you thought about directing your speakers into a parabolic reflector, you may even get away with an old satellite
dish.
This would concentrate and direct your sounds.
------------------
Happiness is a big bang!
\newurl{http://www.zing.com/album/pictures.html?id=4293330041&show_all=1&start=1,here!}
RLane
A new voice
Posts: 1
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I tried a 7hz frequency, and 3 sec. later i fell out of my chair. I tried it on my dad, and it worked.
I have regular Dell harman/kardon speakers connected to headphones. Maybe the headphones create more vibrations inside
the ear canal, making them more effective.
With my setup, my throat went dry and my stomach and back started aching. I felt ready to puke. Dad didnt know what I did,
so it couldnt have been imagination (you know, like placebo pills in medical tests)
smokey March 8th, 2003, 03:59 PM

if you want a good tone generator to make sound at almost any frequency got to <a href="http://www.nch.com.au"
target="_blank">www.nch.com.au</a> this bit of software turns your pc into a scientific instrument (well....) any how it will give
all of you experimenters an interesting tool the audio masking system and the tone generator are free progs' :-) have fun
[ March 08, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: smokey ]
Zach March 8th, 2003, 10:52 PM

for clarification, go to the main page, click on the first link and find "tone generator" it took me a while to find it, maybe I'm
just dumb.
TheBear March 11th, 2003, 02:02 PM

I've been trying these low frequenses (sp?) (7,16,17,27) using regular headphones of pretty good quality, I wouldn't call it
success since I think I might have been imagining that I felt a bit sick. I'll see if I can get my hands on a electric bass
amplifier perhaps even trying the 33Hz tone on some girl but I seriously doubt it will work. Have anybody seen any references
claiming that the 33Hz tone has these special effects on female people :D , If so please provide me with a link or quote.
zeocrash March 11th, 2003, 04:39 PM

hehe i dont need no 33hz tone to give a girl pleasure. i tried the 13 hz on myself, and the effects were not really noticable. i'll
have to try the freqs through my bass amp on people who dont know what they do
btw, does anyone know whether it is the sound card or the speakers that effect the minimum frequency produced by your pc
xyz March 12th, 2003, 05:47 AM

The speakers definitely affect it but I'm not sure about the sound card.

The soundcard *should* be capable of generating the frequency, but the really killjoy is finding an amplifier/speakers that will
respond to such an unusually low frequency.
photonic March 12th, 2003, 11:19 PM

I tried the 7, 10, 13, and 33 hz tones generated by Cool Edit on me and my girlfriend. Nothing happened. I also tried it on my
computer speakers(Altec Lansing) and my car's system(Infinity Kappa Perfects 12"). The tones are really annoying however.
All of the tones except the 7hz were audible iirc. Any ideas on how low the car sub should be able to go? When I played the 7
and 10 hz tones there was a lot of crackling/breaks. Almost like when there's interference on the radio. I would have been
fairly interested if the 33hz tone had worked. You could put it on your stereo and bring girls around then all the sudden you're
an instant ladies man. :D Theoretically...
Edit:
I checked the Frequency Response on the subwoofer. It is 18-150hz +-3 db. I guess that explains the poor quality of the sub-
18 hz tones. Another note, the exposure times to all the sounds was 30-60 seconds.
[ March 13, 2003, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: photonic ]
Flake2m March 13th, 2003, 09:16 AM

If 33hz really does make a girl have certian uummmm "urges" then I think I might have increased my chance of getting lucky
at the after's party on prom night <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . Provided I can play the sound at
the after's.
The real question in this research is; how do we implement this technology?
If we wanted to use 33hz tone to increase our "chances" we would need some decent speakers and a sound editing progam.
The tricky part is playing the sound at the right time. If you managed to play it at a party and combine it with plenty of alcohol
and some smooth talking and you have got a garrenteed good time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ...
zeocrash March 13th, 2003, 02:10 PM

it may just be me but some people might comaplin if you took off their droning hip hop music and replaced it with a droning
33hz tone
on a more serious note, i'm going ff to try this on my bass amp now and i will post results later
simply RED March 13th, 2003, 07:25 PM

If you succeed controling a woman, it will be the greatest "invention" in history :) .
[ March 13, 2003, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: simply RED ]
Ezekiel Kane March 13th, 2003, 11:30 PM

I just tested the 13 Hz and 33 Hz frequenices on a friend of mine who knew nothing about it. (female, obviously) The 13 Hz
sound had no effect whatsoever, and the 33 Hz sound was 'relaxing' at the volume at which it was played. She describes it as
'relaxing as a vibrating chair on a low setting.' *shrug* Sounds exploitable.

today the female tomorrow the world
Mwhahahahaha.
The idea was to put the 33hz tone into an "edited" song or to play it on a seperate speaker. That way the 33hz tone should
still have the desired effect but more subtle.
Ghostcustom 24 March 15th, 2003, 04:09 PM

It is completely possible to impliment a such a tone into a comon song. Hip Hop would would be a preferable choice since it
would have to go with the rythem (i.e. it will not be on constantly, but on.off.on.off. ect.) [or does it???]
I suggest downloading the Cool Edit program (mentioned earlier) and uploading a popular song and integrating the tones with
the beat. Then burn it to a CD and have the DJ play it. (usually this is no problem)
Also with the volume up as high as it is at dances you should receive some *interesting* results (and I would bet that most of
the equipment used by DJ's these days can handle such a low tone).
I am currently attempting to edit one song. When I am finished I will publish a link here for you guys to get it.

If you guys are relying on a magical audio tone to please the ladies, then you need more help than I do! :D

Hey I just do this for kicks. :p Others here sound pretty desperate... :D
Fukineh March 16th, 2003, 07:03 PM

D o e s anyone here know of the Brown Noise? Apparently if you find a certain fre quency (and I think it s d ifferen t for each
individual), you can make someone shit their pants. Now would that not give you the image of someone who is all powerful
and is not to be fucked with?

Considering it was the subject of an episode of Southpark, I think everyone's heard of it :)
Whether it's more than an urban legend, I have no idea. Causing the rectum to resonate might liquify its contents and relax
muscle control though...
Fukineh March 17th, 2003, 03:59 AM

I had a music teacher in junior high who claimed that one of his university Profs managed to inflict the brown noise
successfully on his boss by using a huge audio set up. Then again, I have no proof of this, so I can't be sure that he was
telling the truth.
Ghostcustom 24 March 18th, 2003, 12:10 AM
Fukineh,
Brown noise can be generated [here we go again...] with the Cool Edit 2000 program mentioned earlier and it is not the brown
noise that causes people to shit their pants it is a particular frequency. (It is on this page somewhere) Also brown noise really
isn't as effective as white noise or pink noise because it is too similar to the background noise that you hear every day, where
as pink noise (the most annoying) is not. Still these three types of noise are not as bad as some of the stuff you can
generate with a good tone generator (get the program and play with it).
[ March 21, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: Ghostcustom 24 ]
Ezekiel Kane March 18th, 2003, 03:28 PM

I was under the impression that the brown noise was a simple 13 Hz sinusoid wave, not chaotic like the white noise (with
amplitude 1 for frequency x) or the pink noise (with amplitude 1/x for frequency x). Can anyone clear this up?

It is not clear to me either what the technical aspects of "Brown Noise" are.
Though I can tell you from listening to it that is like talking on the phone through a bad connection, you have that background
noise, or brown noise present.
As for interrogation methods or for similar purposes I see no use for it, as it is not nearly as effective as other tones or
"noise" that you can generate.
-- Click <a href="http://ghostcustom24.50megs.com/Noise/index.html" target="_blank">Ghostcustom24 --Noise-- home

page</a> to listen to a sample of "noise"(s) at my site
[ March 18, 2003, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Ghostcustom 24 ]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Self-Destructing Safe with
credit to NBK2000 - Archive file
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View Full Version : Self-Destructing Safe with credit to NBK2000 - Archive file
zaibatsu March 6th, 2003, 03:21 PM

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
posted February 28, 2001 05:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had a dream in which I had been Inspired to build a self-destructing safe; 2'1/2 X 1'1/2 X 1'1/2; The 3/8" Bottom, 1/2"
walls, 1/2" Lid.
I figure I could use Mercury Switch; to measure a large in crease in heat(Cutting touch, etc.). A magentic sensor in the bottom
if it is lifted off where it sits(attempt to take it back to the lab.) A Light Sensor(Photo Resisto of some kind.); to detect if they
drill into it for a small cammera.
one thing I was unsure of in my dream was would the Metal be thick enough to shield it from X-Ray or and other type of
radiation or would it be necessary to shield it with Lead(Pb) on the inside.
The self destruction method I conclueded in my dream would work the best would be Thermite. Thermite(3 X 1lbs to be
initiated all at the same time) would inciderate most things(Papers, Cd's, Discs, Harddrives.) to be kept in the safe.
All the sensors would be deactivated upon openig of the safe there for you would be able to move chage the batteries etc.
once you had opened the safe.
Question? Comments? Concerns?

I lok forward to continuing this dream
------------------
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 214
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 01, 2001 03:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An earthquake happened today in Seattle, you might want to take that into consideration.
Also you will need to be able to open it.

Then you have the identification/password electronics, which become the weakest spot.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't you want a thermistor to detect heating? AFAIK mecury switches are only used to detect motion.
How sensitive would this heat sensor be? In the course of a year the environmental temperature could easily go from
-10*C to 35*C+ possibly colder if you live in like Canada. Would cutting raise the internal temperature more than 50*C?
Surely they would risk damaging the contents if it did?
Personally I think they'd go they'd open it via the lock, it's the weakest link but then I'm no safe cracker.
Maybe you could booby trap the door? So when you open the door the ignition circuit is completed unless it is dissabled by say
a reed switch activated by sticking a magnet to the specific area on the outside of the safe?
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
posted March 01, 2001 12:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No..No..No,
I am not going to use a electronics(for the lock); it is just one more thing for the cops to try and fuck with.
Where I live there are no Eathquakes. You could always use a Ball switch, then bolt it down.
------------------
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 214
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bolt it down...from inside the safe?
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess you could make a bomb that would detonate when the safe door was opened more than 3cm away from the safe
itself. Of course when you opened it, you would only open the safe door to 2cm, and then somehow disable the bomb. (you
would have sorted that out for yourself beforehand).
You could make the bomb so that it detonated at high temperatures, too.
I saw something in that movie jennifer lopez starred in, where this guy set his safe up so that a grenade's pin was connecting
the door to the walls of the safe. When the door was opened, the pin would come out and the grenade would blow up. The guy
who owned the safe would open the door a TINY bit, and carefully remove the pin from the wall, without taking it out the
grenade.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bolt it down on the outside. so they appear to have access to it. then when they un-bolt it and lift it of the magnet it
inciderates the contents.
Anthony: If I took the trouble to make a self-destructing safe I would keep it in side. That is why I would have it set to self-
destruct. If something was burried in a park or the like; I would not have it elaberately boobytraped(Just a simple
handgrenade setup with no deley in an ammo box).
------------------
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whether the lock is electronic or mechanical it would probably be the easiest way to get the safe open.
It's a good idea though.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1091
From: Guess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've scanned in my drawings from when I was originally developing the RTPB and thinking about the SD safe.
The bolts that attach the safe componets are part of the electrical circuit in the alarm. If bolt is completly cut the circuit is
broken and the SD goes off.
The safe is protectected by a monolithic cast reinforced concrete shell tha protects the sides and top of the safe. The shell
prevents removal by prying or yanking. It also delays penetration and requires the use of heavy power tools. Only the front is
exposed.
Lost foam casting is used for an exact fit and to cast in channels for the shield. After the shield is inserted it is bolted in and
the channel filled in with concrete.
Before the shell is cast though, wire loops are run through the rebar. If the concrete is broken, the circuit is broken and the SD
activated.
If the safe itself is drilled or torched, either the wire grid will be broken or the safe wall and inner conductor will be connected
through the drill bit.
When the safe door is unlocked, an inner grate and chain prevents the contents from being snatched out before the SD can
activate, in case the safe lock is compromised.
When the safe door is opened, a delay timer (5 seconds) starts and the safe door only opens only a few inchs to allow key
insertion. If the key is not inserted within 5 seconds, the SD burns everything to ash and slag.
An opening is cut in the bottom of the safe with a hole in the floor where the thermite charge is placed in a crucible. The igniter
is connected to the alarm circuit and a grill is put in place to support the safe contents.
If the safe is compromised, the thermite ignites, and 5,000 degree F flames burns all organics to gas and ash, metals
melted, and everything falls down into the pit. After cooling off, the only thing left of the safes contents is a blob of slag and
ash.
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Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
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Very nice. Cement would be cheaper to do than Metal. I like the wire grid. I am surprised that you also chose Thermite; I
guess great minds do think alike(*smirk*).
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Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 199
From: Germany
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Hallo,
to use a light sensor, a LDR in the save with a delay electronic to the igniter is a good method.
Everyone who wants to open your save will use light (or he cant see anything)while working to open it.
Sako
A new voice
Posts: 36
From:
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What about having a fake lock on the front and if any body trys to pick, it would set off the Termite or have a combo lock on
the front and have two combo's, 1 set's the termite off and the other opens it. Would that be possible?
Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 225
From:
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if what you're keeping in this safe is so important as to go through all this trouble, why not just hide it somewhere instead of
making it attract attention to itself.
some ideas: in a hole in a wall covered by loose wallpaper, buried somewhere, in a volume of hollowed out encyclopedias
connected together, in a space behind a false back to a bookcase or a false bottom to a drawer, in a speaker cabinet, in a
space under a loose floor tile, in a false pipe in the basement et cetra
oh and btw, what about a fingerprint reader? the only way to get around that is to cut off the owner's finger.
[This message has been edited by Ctrl_C (edited March 03, 2001).]
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 214
From:
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Or duplicate the fingerprint.
My ideal safe will be mirror smooth and projection free (of course it has a fucking door!) Only one person knows how to open
this
safe and if it has experienced forced entry, it then self destructs.
Then there will be a sign said : This safety

vault will detonate when experiencing unauthorized entry.
Better deter the one that trys to open it than losing valuables.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
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Cypher lock is to expensive; who said anything about not hiding it well?
Read the RTPB.pdf it is worht it!!
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PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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I would draw a picture if my computer was working but I was thinking of a key to open this, why not an electronic lock, you will
have a hole in it that has contacts on the walls, so you make a key that only connects certain contacts, you could double or
triple this needing 2 or 3 keys to be inserted in the right holes. connect any one wrong contact and BOOM the asshole trying to
pick your lock looses his hands at best. to make a key like this you will need a system to make sure the key is in place like a
sensor at the bottom. now of corse this will be hidden in something like the base mounting hole or something of the case and
the stupid pigs will go for the apparent keypad at the front and probably try to hot-wire it and blow/melt their hands off. while
you would just stick a pin in the bottom and take your stuff out. you probsbly could make one of these by taking aluminum
berings and hobby beads and putting them on a shaft of a kind, of corse to be truly effective you will want to have an eay way
to destrou the key so you can take the beads/berings off in a hurry. you might wanna make a note of the yeys so you can
rebuild them
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
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If you set it up to hurt the opperator you could get charged with that in court if nothing else. Unless you live in texas yuo can't
protect your property with deadly force; only people(even that is a tricky area).
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nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1091
From: Guess
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Agent Blak, I like the signature. HAHAHA!
The whole point behind the SD safe is to destroy shit that will get you sent to prison. It defeats the purpose if in the process of
destroying the dirt you end up maiming someone. Then you'll get busted for mayhem and bombs instead of the hacking or
whatever it was that got their attention in the first place.
You want the safe to look like it's just your average joe blow wal-mart $200 sentry safe. This way the pigs think it's easy prey
and take a sledge hammer and pry bar to it, not realising that it's a lot more difficult than that.
RTPB#51. Police operate by knowing the pattern of criminal behavior. If you don't fit the pattern, you are that
much harder to catch.
In this case, since SD safes aren't something police have seen, they're not thinking "We'd better analyze this safe before we
try to force it open, it may be rigged to self-desruct." They'll think it's just the typical cheapo safe and end up destroying the
very thing they're looking for.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
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I would still shield the conents with lead in case they try to fry the electronics or X-ray it. mind you the Mrays would destroys
discs anyway.
NBK;
Thanx My boss told me that. I mean it in a different sense than he did. He also told me about the 4Fs...Find'em, Feel'em,
Fuck'em, Forget'em.
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Flake2m July 29th, 2003, 03:48 AM

NBK has brought up a topic like this before but I came up with idea that I just had to share.
My idea:
The safe is made from reinforced concrete with walls 25mm thick. The door is 50mm thick. The inside room of the safe is
approxmately 300x300x300mm (so 1 cubic foot of space). What makes the safe so secure is the six 25mm panal that make
up the inner layer.
The inner layer panels are made out of Plaster of paris or Calcium Sulfate that has Mg/Al powder mixed into it. The Mg/Al
turns the panels into incendary blocks. To reinforce the panels so they aren't brittle a copper mesh is intergrated into the
panels, this also prevents any bugs or transmitters from working inside the safe. The panels also have a pyrophoric material
to one side, so if a drill or saw manages to penetrate the concrete, the heat from the drill will ignite the pyrophoric layer which
ignites the Calcium Sulfate panels and turns the contents into ash and slag.
The door does not have hinges or handles as these would be used to exploit a weakness. Instead there are two iron/cobalt
strips which allow magnetic handles to be attached to the safe door so it can be removed. The locking mechanism consists of
8 bars that lock into the sides of the safe. I haven't figured whether a mechanical dial or electronic keypab is more suitable,
however either one would have 2 combinations; The first combination is the real one and opens the safe the second one sets
of the incendary panels.
While I was figuring out the concept for this safe I realised one delightful bonus with this safe. If the incendary panels were
ignited while the safe was closed, then the safe would probaly explode from the heat and pressure. So not only would the
contents be destroyed, but superhot chunks of concrete would fly all over the place.
nbk2000 July 29th, 2003, 01:07 PM

NBK has brought up a topic like this before...
So rather than append this into an existing topic, like you're supposed to, you create a new one? Tsk, tsk, tsk...thought you'd
know better by now. :(
While I was figuring out the concept for this safe I realised one delightful bonus with this safe. If the incendary panels were
ignited while the safe was closed, then the safe would probaly explode from the heat and pressure. So not only would the
contents be destroyed, but superhot chunks of concrete would fly all over the place.
It's also very likely that unburnt pieces of evidence would go flying all over the place as well. You don't want that to happen.
Rather, you want the pressure to be vented, while the contents of the safe are retained inside it, so the burning process can
be completed.
Also, plaster incendiary doesn't create any slag, just flame. While flame is good for burning organics, you also want slag to
melt metals and fuse into a solid metal mass with the remains. Otherwise, you may have burnt up a gun, but it'll still be
recognizable as such to a jury by the parts. But if it's a blob of iron slag...:p
Flake2m July 30th, 2003, 06:08 AM

My apologies to the mods and NBK.
IIRC paper, instantly combusts at about 450 degress C, however because it is a good insulator if there is a large amount of
paper in the safe it might some how survive the combustion intact.
Maybe the plaster thermite could have some pieces of scrap metal in it. the scrap iron would increase the amount of slag
formed.
However, making a pressure vent for the safe would be rather difficult without comprising the security of the contents. Maybe
you could have a piece of incendary plaster in the safe that forms a vent as it is combusted.
yt2095 July 30th, 2003, 06:35 AM

I`m fairly sure the 450 temp is in farenheight(sp?) as in Ray Bradburys book "Farenheight 451"
another possibility may be to incorporate some sort of "Area Denial" mechanism within the vicinity of the safe, allowing the
thermal comp adequate time to do its work.
knowledgehungry July 30th, 2003, 09:48 AM

Yes it is farenheit, 451*, paper will be destroyed by thermite, you might want to add some extra oxidizer to the composition
just to ensure complete combustion of all that is in the safe.
nbk2000 July 30th, 2003, 03:12 PM

Any paper would have to stored in such a manner that air would be able to get to every piece of paper in the safe to ensure
total combustion. If you have a stack of tightly bound paper, then it's entirely possible that, while the paper would char
through, that the charred paper could be reconstructed and incriminating evidence retrieved.
That's why papers would have to be stored loose, and preferably in some sort of tumbling box. Think of a box or drum made
of steel mesh that's attached to a drive shaft. When the SD is activated, the box holding the papers starts rotating around
inside the safe, ensuring that all the paper is exposed to the flames, and the ashes are sifted out into an unreconstructable
mess at the bottom, amoungst the rest of the ash and slag. :)
To me, "Area Denial" sounds a lot like some potent CW agent being sprayed into the room. CX or DFP come to mind as
simple and efficiently quick. Though I suppose more mundane CS/OC would do in a pinch. ;)
As for venting, I'd think small diameter tubing set into the concrete below the safe would work well. Each tube is only a few
millimeter in diameter, but there'd be dozens of them, all terminating in the floor of the safe, underneath an elevated steel
plate, so no sneaky piggies with fiberoptic scopes could sneak a peek into the safe. :p
If the thermite/pyro composition was to contain toxic elements, then there's no reason why some of the tubes couldn't be
used to vent OUT the toxic gases as fresh air is being sucked IN through others. :)
If you used a teflon-based incendiary, then clouds of superhot and corrosive fluoride smoke being ejected out into the room
that the safe is in sounds like one hell of an area denial mechanism to me. :D
Kid Orgo August 6th, 2003, 07:13 PM

1) Flash paper. Magicians use it in tricks. Write your secrets on it, no thermite needed. Just a spark.
2) I recall some sort of paper being very soluble in water. The mob used to use it, the feds enter, the papers go into nearby
buckets, no evidence. Rigging a safe to flood is easier than rigging a safe to combust.
Then again, neither of these ideas do a damned thing about floppy disks, hard drives, or metal.
nbk2000 August 6th, 2003, 11:13 PM

I've got rice paper. :)
Write on it with a marker, and if piggies come a knockin', it dissolves into mush within a few seconds in your mouth.
yt2095 August 7th, 2003, 09:17 AM

Kid Orgo,
Simple, buy your CD`s from NBK, they self destruct quite easily! LOL :D
http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2320&highlight=cds
++++++++++++++
Ooooo...cheap shot! :D
NBK

Sorry to re-open an old thread, but... (What are the rules on this, anyway? I am fairly new, so wasn't here to post originally,
and I don't post unless I feel that I am adding some kind of value...)
Every time I have seen a system with self-destruct, it has been a case of open the door a little, and flick a switch, etc. Also,
nbk2000, you really don't want to fumble that key!
When the safe door is opened, a delay timer (5 seconds) starts and the safe door only opens only a few inchs to allow key
insertion. If the key is not inserted within 5 seconds, the SD burns everything to ash and slag. :eek:
A better system might be a simpler one. You have three seconds to open the door a full ninety degrees, or the fire goes up.
A more complex one, but perhaps easier to do given a lot of the other posts around here (the remote detonator thread),
would be to use a wireless system to disarm the safe, as confirmed by an audiable beeping for ten or twenty seconds. Then
you have those ten/20 seconds to open the safe door fully.
It could then re-arm whenever the door was closed.
Note that this topic has been kind of resurrected regarding hiding and destroying data in the watercooler http://
www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3341
abandonperfection October 18th, 2005, 10:00 PM

KISS
How about a tightly sealed ceramic box with hinges and clamps on the outside with vent holes on the top and a thermite
charge on the bottom. Attach the firing system to a photodiode and then to a sensor on the door of the larger safe, then a
magnetic reed switch. If the door is opened or light is let in without the reed switch being deactivated by placing a magnet on
top of the safe the thermite will ignite, venting through the holes in the top and leaving the slag to destroy everything in the
ceramic box.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Rugged Laptops that stand the test
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View Full Version : Rugged Laptops that stand the test
DaRkDwArF March 24th, 2003, 10:19 AM

Recently at work my supervisor asked me to look into some new laptops, the old ones being of the pentium mmx era w ere becomeing a little dated and the batterys had no life
in them whatso ever.
Considering out of the 35 laptops we purchased 4 years ago only 8 remain in working order, we decided to go with a more rugged milspec style laptop, after searching the news
groups I came up with this sexy peice of hardware!
<a href="http://slate.msn.com/id/2080546/" target= "_blank">http://slate.msn.com/id/2080546/< /a>

<a href="http://www .gobookmax.com/gobookmax/gbmax_ot.asp" target="_blank">http://ww w.gobookmax.com/gobookmax/gbmax_ot.asp</a>
The laptop in the spotlight is the GoBookMax apparently in use in the war in Iraq atm, the review s and manufacturer claim that it not only meets all milspec standards but also
far exceeds them. Being dropped 54 times opened up while powered on, able to be baked, frozen, w ashed off with a hose, etc...
Theres a promo video here:

<a href="http://www .gobookmax.com/gobookmax/demo.asp" target= "_blank">http://www.gobookmax.com/gobookmax/demo.asp</a>
The price: $4,500USD

The basic features I found were:
PIII 700mhz cpu
Touchscreen Display that actually works outdoors ;-)
Cisco w ireless network and external antenna
1 x pcmcia cardbus slot
2 x usb ports
If somebody in the US can order the whitepapers they can pull up a shitload more, but atm thats all I can get.
Just remember that this thing is one hardcore peice of machinery, like all milspec laptops the specs are lacking by todays standards, but you never buy these things to play
games of design graphics on, their designed for communications, diagnostics and navigation in the field.
DaRkDwArF March 26th, 2003, 08:55 PM

I thought there'd be some discussion about this thing, this is amazing in my opinion, the first commercialy available laptop of it's class w ith government funding backing it... If
these things pick off they'll become a hell of alot cheaper in the next few years! :D
Energy84 March 27th, 2003, 12:23 AM

I say give the computer industry another 20 years to settle down, then you'll start finding some truly rugged, 25Ghz+ computers for cheap!
Unless you're the military, why w ould you need or even w ant a laptop out in the back country anyw ays???
Edit: Sorry for the criticism, but I do actually agree that's it's a really cool idea anyway. :)
[ March 26, 2003, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Energy84 ]

My god boy, are you blind? you live in america, america has 2 w ay sattelite internet. If your hiding from the heat and w ant to get the news everyday, talk to little timmy and
post on the forum how are you going to do it if your shanty shack/cave keeps flooding? or a sandstorm kicks into your desert hideout?
Theres hundreds of applications for these sorts of things, their getting cheaper every year and now their commercial. You may have no use what so ever for them but I'm sure a
small percentage of us may w ish to keep posting on the forum after the appocalypse :D
metafractal March 27th, 2003, 04:02 AM

This would be perfect for a automatic gun turret. Just hook up a webcam, and install some software to run a process whenever it detects movement. Then, simply hook up a
stepping motor (you can buy computer controlled stepping motor kits where I live) to move the base a relay (ditto with the kit) to control a solenoid for the hammer and your
ready to go! Okay, not a 10 minute job, but certainly feasable. Of course you would still have conventional thick steel plating, but I would say that this would provide that edge
nessacary for the system not to break down from shock or otherw ise in a firefight.
Tuatara March 27th, 2003, 11:54 PM

'Not a 10 minute job' - no, more like a 5 year image processing research project! Otherwise you'd w aste all your munitions defoliating trees every time the wind blows :D
That price isn't too shabby though, considering the price of an ordinary laptop. I'd have expected over $10k for that sort of thing.
Edit: it just occured to me that the automatic gunturret w ould be brilliant for rabbit control on some of NZ's high country sheep stations.
[ March 27, 2003, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Tuatara ]

How about tying it in w ith facial recognitian software. If it see's an unknown face it lets rip :cool:
Then again the lag behind something like that would defeat the purpose... how about a bluetooth beacon attached to yourself, deactivates the turret when your near it, rearms
as soon as you leave it's proximity
Anthony March 28th, 2003, 09:19 AM

"How about tying it in with facial recognitian software. If it see's an unknown face it lets rip"
One day you stroll in with your sunglasses on...
"a bluetooth beacon attached to yourself, deactivates the turret when your near it"
What if one day the beacon fails for any number of reasons?
I know it's not a serious idea, but these things should be less dangerous to you than the enemy :cool:
DaRkDwArF April 3rd, 2003, 10:54 AM

Thats the name of the game though, would you w ork as a butcher and expect not to one day cut yourself? set up some form of audible beep or led indicator to tell you if the
turrets online or not...
Ghostcustom 24 April 3rd, 2003, 10:41 PM

Back to the laptop:
How do you guys think this thing w ould stand up against the sand?
I read up on how it is hardened against alittle rain but they didn't say anything about sand.
Imagine it - you have this thing in Iraq w ith all the sandstorms and crap. The sand would get under the keys, in the ports, ect. What a mess!

the keyboard is completely sealed, no problem there and I'd assume like most other laptops of this class, it'd have rubber port covers at the absolute minimum, especially for
the price...

I would be more worried about the heatr. I have a friend that just got back in Jan. He was telling me that over in Kuwait in July it got to around 130 average temp.. So I would
be more w orried baout them melting dow n.. I can though see where sand could be evil...
How is the 3.5 in floppy drive sealed?

and the conections and conectors in the back?

My god look at all the questions in the posts above about the ruggedness of this thing if you READ MY FIRST POST, you wouldn't be making statements like that, just w atch the
promo video and look at the expanded view, 3d view and tech specs, all will become clear

Looked already and although you seemed to have a idea how you se it, I never saw any specifications on how it was sealed, the total length of time it was under temprature.. I
may have missed that I'm sorry.

I am personally not to impressed w ith it's 'ruggedness'. It is water resistant - not water proof which means it can only take a certain amount of water in a certain amount of
time.
This is (in my opinion) it's major flaw. These devices will be used in the field around the clock. The military does not have the option to take these things out of the rain when it
has been exposed to more water than the specifications allow for. And peoples lives could be lost if these types of things fail to w ork.

They seemed to allways show it on rock just above the w ater... simlutating like it could stand to get realy wet thought you only see them pour some water across the front. I
still though would like to see the tests where it died... to w hat limits w here they able to push it before it was too much... that might help more people to see w ether or not it is
something for them
DaRkDwArF April 5th, 2003, 09:38 PM

Maybe some more third party reviews are in order...
Agent Blak April 6th, 2003, 01:39 AM

will it stop a 7.62/.308 at 50 yards?

Thats about the only criterium it should pass on this forum <img border= "0" title= "" alt= "[Wink]" src="w ink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:< hr /> I am personally not to impressed
with it's 'ruggedness'. It is water resistant - not water proof w hich means it can only take a certain amount of w ater in a certain amount of time. < hr /></
blockquote> I'm sure it can handle w ater longer than you can hold your breath. I don't think they're intended to be used at the
bottom of the ocean. If it's rated the w ay other things are rated(i.e. w atches), it's probably water resistant to a certain depth. After which the pressure w ould break the seals or
something.
Darkdw arf: You mentioned tw o w ay satellite internet in the U.S. Could you link me to that? Most of the time satellite internet only uses the dish for downstream. If you want to
upload, you have to dialup.

Tw o-way satellite is available to residential areas in UK/Europe:
<a href="http://www .ispreview.co.uk/broadband/sat.shtml" target= "_blank">http://w ww.ispreview .co.uk/broadband/sat.shtml</a>
Prices are higher than ADSL or cable though.

About the water:
On the site it states that it can take up to a certain amount of water (inches per hour- as in rain). It doesn't say what happens when it is exposed to more that that amount.
About the satellite:

I use DirecWay tw o-way satellite Internet service from Hughes. It is available to anyone who can see the satellites but in this case your dish has to be somewhat permanently
installed (to something that will not move).And oh yea, it's fast. On a good night I can download at about 600kbs. The lowest I have ever received was like 200 and I have
peaked at about 900 (it does fluctuate though).
But the military has their own satellite system...
photonic April 7th, 2003, 01:15 AM

Ghostcustom: This is off topic but interesting none the less. Have you ever tried contacting other satellites using your DirecWay dish? Do you know w hat frequency it operates
in? I've become interested in satellite communications as of late and have been trying to build/buy a two way satellite for experimenting(legally of course < img border= "0"
title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).

Let you guys on a little secret, you can use the downstream without being on the ISP, there is software out there that w ill capture the traffic as a .bin file, and it can filter out
alot of junk, really what it presents it too you as is a compressed file holding all the files going downstream via your set constraints. good way for getting free porn and music
when your in the middle of no where =)

I have seen information about that (look around <a href= "http://www.copperhead.cc" target="_blank"> Here< /a>). I have the DirecWay Satellite-Return System, also known
as DirecWay 2-Way.
But I have not tried it becuase I have had to retune it 4 times (snow warped the fence which it is bolted to) and it has to be very percise (for the internet, DirecTV comes in fine
though...). And I know very little about it, though I am very interested.
> Should I start a new string about this?
DaRkDwArF April 7th, 2003, 09:27 PM

it is interesting... but still rather useless as you have nbo control over the data being recieved, more snooping on the world then one person and not exactually free internet, just
check out 'http://copperhead.cc' that where I started and 'http://austech.info'.

Darkdw arf, why do you say that you have no control over the data being received? Surely there's some way to manipulate what's being received. Also, there's got to be like
promiscuous mode for a satellite. That would be great. I have directv. If DirecWay is KU-band them I would bet that DirecTV is too. I w onder if it w ould be possible to intercept
data from all those roof mounted dishes on gas stations.
Ghostcustom 24 April 8th, 2003, 12:07 AM

If you guys would like to make a list of questions for me I will be sure to get them answered, by people that know this stuff.
I find it very ironic that I live only a few miles from the Hughes DirecWay uplink station (large complex - has tons of huge dishes thats say DirecWay) and yet to get good
internet I must beam up to a satallite and it beams it dow n only a few miles away to Hughes servers and that goes through the 2nd largest fiber obtic cable route (Boeing, NIST,
Lockheed Martin, and several major server banks are located on this route) in MD to the servers in DC and off to the world.
It is so messed up.
usp45 November 28th, 2006, 12:27 PM

I noticed that this thread is a bit old; some of you may be interested in the latest model of this product. Itronix w as acquired by General Dynamics last year, and has since been
working on a true weatherproof laptop. They released the XR-1 this fall, w hich is a completely sealed Intel Core Duo laptop with pretty reasonable specs.
'http://ww w.gd-computing.com/index.cfm?page=Products:XR-1'
Some of my work relates to the oceanography field; one of my colleagues has purchased one of these for use in the field. In particular, his criteria w as that the laptop withstand
immersion in salt water while continuing to operate. The laptop may also be immersed in a bleach solution for cleaning purposes. The first unit w e received had two problems (a
minor defect in one of the non-critical seals, and a missing backlit keyboard that nobody told us w asn't available yet), so we are aw aiting a replacement before we begin stress
testing (i.e. w atching movies on the bottom of a swimming pool).
This looks like a very promising laptop for anybody who requires a portable computer in a hostile environment, should they meet their claims.
mydnight December 6th, 2006, 07:36 AM

In many (most?) areas you don't even NEED satelite for internet -- you can get special modems that allow you to connect to the cellular network using the SIM card out of your
phone. Speeds are comparable to dialup, but if all you are doing is checking your email or The Forum, it shouldn't be that big of a problem.
Edit: it just occured to me that the automatic gunturret w ould be brilliant for rabbit control on some of NZ's high country sheep stations.
Wouldn't that shoot the, umm, sheep?
Errant January 3rd, 2007, 12:20 PM

Disclaimer: Whilst I am not directly connected to this company, I have dealt w ith and tested some of their equipment for occupational useage.
http://ww w.ruggedsolutions.co.uk
This UK company makes ruggedised equipment for use in adverse environments.
I have used the rugged PDA and found it to be capable of withstanding maritime construction operations (fully w aterproof, not just splash or water resistant) and the inbuilt GPS
and Bluetooth certainly was useful on the connectivity front. USB connectivity allows use of most PC periphrials(sp?).
Downside - as standard you are stuck with Windows CE but on the upside as far a ruggedness w e failed on site to render the PDA inoperable. After being run over on compacted
hardcore by a 16tonne tracked excavator resulted in marring to the outer case (plastic scratching) and a slight distortion to the screen (slight color loss to one side but still
readable and fully useable). As for water it is rated to 1m for 30min but succcessfully survived a dunking approx 10m of saltwater in the harbour. :eek:
Tough gizmo, not as fully useful as a laptop, but more easily carried and tougher than any I've ever used (including Sony's Toughbook w hich w as destroyed on site within
40mins of arrival! :rolleyes: )
I'd give it a thumbs up. :D
deaddwarf February 12th, 2007, 05:43 AM

I'm back again under a different user as my last email was hacked (hushmail) I was originally posting as darkdw arf. I now use a CF-18 touchpad panasonic toughbook. It's got
a CDMA modem in it and I've been successfully fielding it with my GPS (A garmin 60CSX) and my Icom radio using various mapping software to work w ith the NMEA data.
It's not particularly advanced in comparison to the latest laptop specs, and I've had to purchase an external DVD/RW drive and upgrade the ram, but it far exceeds my needs in
terms of portability, reliability and ruggedness.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > lockpicking advice for
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View Full Version : lockpicking advice for beginners

A few months back I decided I was going to teach myself to pick locks, didn't realise how simple it would be, so I've decided to
create a post on the easiest way to practise, suggested items to purchase and a few tips I picked up on the way.
After getting advice from not only this forum but another aussie based forum and chat, I decided to stick with purchasing a set
of picks from southernord. Their catalogue of picks can be viewed here:
<a href="http://www.southord.com/lockpicks.htm" target="_blank">http://www.southord.com/lockpicks.htm</a>
The general idea was to purchase their 8 peice set, but having a few extra dollars laying around and wanting to get something
that would last, I eventually went for the 11 peice set. The picks arrived and were nothing flash, but they do the job. I'd
strongly recommend buying the 11 peice set and don't even bother with the jack knive things.
While waiting for the picks to arrive (standard mail to australia) I hunted down the pdf version of the MIT lock picking guide
and printed it at work and started reading up on basic concepts of how locks work.
After the picks arrived I purchased 3 common brand pin tumbler locks and got to work. It took me about 2 hours to get the
lock to turn over for the first time, but it was a feeling of great success. After a few more weeks of fiddeling around I got
myself down to about 12 - 15mins.
I've found the easiest way to do standard pin tumbler locks is scrubbing/raking, using a lubricant suchg as WD40 about 20
seconds before the attempt also helps. A few other little things such as using heatshink on the handles of the picks for a little
bit extra comfort, making a new pouch to replace the dodgy vynil one (you get what you pay for) and learning how to reset the
pins in the locks also keeps the challange going.
So to sum it up, learning to pick can be very rewarding in more ways then one :D It can get extremely frustrating, but the
payoff in the end is worth it. Any comments, questions?
a_bab March 24th, 2003, 12:26 PM

It sounds great. The time is quite good also, and I suppose it passes very fast as you are working on. I'm interested if is it
possible to lockpick a padlock and if it is harder than an ordinary lock to do it.
spydamonkee March 24th, 2003, 01:46 PM

it is very possible to pick padlocks and the cheaper ones are very easy i have picked alot of them with just 2 paper clips and
other just using some old keys i had laying around :D
cheers for that site as i am looking at getting into recreational lockpicking so might just order me that 11pc set.
Caacrinolaas March 24th, 2003, 02:14 PM

If any one wants some more information i'll post some links for you.
<a href="http://www.gregmiller.net/locks/" target="_blank">http://www.gregmiller.net/locks/</a> ,A littel out-of date and

some broken links.
<a href="http://www.lysator.liu.se/mit-guide/mit-guide.html" target="_blank">http://www.lysator.liu.se/mit-guide/mit-
guide.html</a> ,The MIT guide, a classic :) .
<a href="http://www.pillarcom.com/impress.html" target="_blank">http://www.pillarcom.com/impress.html</a> ,Another
lockpick guide.
<a href="http://www.wilton.force9.co.uk/lock/" target="_blank">http://www.wilton.force9.co.uk/lock/</a> ,Infopaedia.
There is also a guide on <a href="http://home.howstuffworks.com/lock-picking.htm" target="_blank">http://

home.howstuffworks.com/lock-picking.htm</a> wich is nice and easy to understand, might be a good place to get some basic
knowledge. There are probobly more sites with information on the subject but these where the only ones that i could find a few
years back.
[ March 24, 2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Caacrinolaas ]

I forgot to metion the how stuff works guide, thanks Caacrinolaas!
It has animated disgrams that makes the understanding blatently obvious. The MIT guide covers most of what ever other
guide does, but different sites may have better diagrams.
As for padlocks, most pin tumbler padlocks can be picked easily and are probably the most common thing you'll come into
contact with in the real world (why scale a barbed wire fence?)

The 3 best tools for picking locks:
1: Dynamite/C4
2: Sledge hammer
3: the key itself
I have had an intrest myself in picking locks, but I dont have the cash for a set of picks atm. On the other though I might not
need lockpicks after I discovered that I can unlock any lockwood lock at the school I go to, even the bike cage padlock :p .
Interesting, I work for the department of education australia, and all the schools in my district don't use lockwood padlocks for
that exact reason...
Al Nobel March 25th, 2003, 01:28 PM

The most ineresting tool on your link is the E100HO Electric Lock Pick.I think this tool is the best choice for opening locks really
fast,but its fucking expensive.
PyroTech March 25th, 2003, 03:59 PM

I bought a lockpick set, a while ago. It contained 6 picks and a little book. I was amazed of how easy it was to open simpel
locks, But to get the front door of a house open? :confused: I guess you need to be real patient if you want to learn how to
open a front door, and it would be much easier to just buy a electric one. Because in my opinion, if you really want to open a
house door, you have some intentions. :cool: And I didn't have the intentions, only intressted.

What the hell's so special about this thing?
<img src="http://www.southord.com/images/thumbs/E100C_E100HO.jpg" alt=" - " />
Looks to me like it just vibrates or something? If that's the case, you could probably just get an electric toothbrush or a
vibrating cell phone or any other vibrating electrical appliance and just buy the picking needles for $5.
Edit: I suppose that I should mention that this is the E100HO Electric Lockpick. <a href="http://www.southord.com/catalog.asp?
cat=locksmith&rowstart=30" target="_blank">SouthernOrd</a>
[ March 25, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Energy84 ]
PyroTech March 26th, 2003, 02:58 AM

Well, I have some picks, and a electric toothbrush. I'll see if it works. I'll post te results ASAP.
Al Nobel March 26th, 2003, 05:33 PM

I think that a certain frequence of the vibration is required.Has something to do with Eigenschwingung (sorry,but no online
dictonary helped me to find the correct english word).

no specific frequency, just nothing too over the top and nothing minute... an electric tooth brush on soft setting should do the
trick, all it's used for is rakeing

I don't think frequency really matters. Just as long as the pulses are strong enough to 'snap' the pins all the way back to
where the springs are fully compressed. Combine this with a little binding action by turning the cylinder, and you should be
able to open up most locks.

I hooked up a cheap tooth brush to a pick. I found that if I set the first 3-4 pins with it off the last one was easier. I am in the
process of writting an article on it.

Has anyone ever tried to drill out a lock?
There are drills called "Hard Cut Drills". The are made from Carbide, the whole bit is carbide not a brazed insert. The would be
very useful with a 24 volt cordless drill.

Since I am sometimes rather impatient my success with lock picking has been somewhat of a bad experience. But I have
experimented with other methods and found drilling to be a long and noisy solution to the problem. In my opinion, thermite,
despite its drawbacks is the best solution to getting past a lock. I realize that it leaves a rather permanent mark on the lock
but so does drilling.
Also, if the lock is of regular size, why bother with drills and thermite. Just go to your local hardware store and buy a lock cutter
:p .
serene September 18th, 2003, 06:14 PM

My chemicals are aqquired from the lab in my college when i clean the room after school. There is a big yellow safe like thing
in the corner of the room with the words 'flammable' on it. The first time i wanted chemicals i managed to pick the lock in 5
minutes and steal them via a black bin bag. Then i noticed a locked cubbord underneath that i picked in about 4 minutes to
find about every chemical i could ever need.
And what did i use??

A very small screwdriver as a turning rench and a paper clip for the pins. In all honestly i think that its pointless buying
something when a job can be done with easily accessable equipment. Is there an advantage to using an official 'lockpicking'
tool?
Rhadon September 18th, 2003, 06:34 PM
I don't know how experienced you are serene, but I assume that you're a newbie to lock picking. Either you were just lucky or,
what I think is the most probable explanation, the lock you picked is quite a bad one. Therefore it can be considered unlikely
that you'll be able to pick any better locks with that method. It's not that easy :).
jelly September 18th, 2003, 07:12 PM

The most ineresting tool on your link is the E100HO Electric Lock Pick.I think this tool is the best choice for opening locks really
fast,but its fucking expensive.
And it's is useless for silent/secret operations. Picking a lock with an electric pick gun is quite noisy.
nbk2000 September 18th, 2003, 07:43 PM

Serene, what you broke into is called a fire safety cabinet, and they usually use cheap wafer locks. Wafers are ridiculously easy
to pick, so doing so isn't something to brag about. :p
serene September 18th, 2003, 08:25 PM

Nah im not bragging about picking it, just wanted to brag about my constant supply of free chemicals :P
The lock was a pin tumbler, not a wafer lock, and this was just one of them times when it seems to just work. I have struggled
on many locks in my time and have failed to be able to open them E.g the Pin Tumblers with the bastard spool pins in them
;)
Sorry to sound ignorant guys
CommonScientist February 5th, 2004, 03:25 PM

I am pretty fluent when it comes to pin tumbler locks, I picked 5 filing cabinets with a paper clip and a allen wrench filed down
to a flat point to use a tension wrench. I practice picked a roller file cabinet so much that I ruined it ! It is now permantly
locked, so I had to use a crow bar to un lock it.
Be careful what you pick, because sometimes you can ruin the lock so bad that not even the original key will work in it!
McGuyver February 5th, 2004, 10:38 PM

That is exactly why you shouldn't mind spending a few dollars to get a small pick set. Picks don't ruin locks, paper clips
do:rolleyes: .
It is my experience that if you want to stay good at lockpicking you can't stop, you need to practice at least every once in
awhile. I stopped for awhile and now I can't pick a lock for shit.
orius February 11th, 2004, 06:11 AM

Yeah Im a noob I know but lockpicking is sort of my hobby. Yes wafer locks are a joke they are on alot of car doors and really
pathetic. Pin tumblers are a joke as well. Even spool pins and mushroom heads are nothing against a snap gun and/or skilled
hand.
Here is a link that animates how to pick a lock. Doesnt get any more detailed.
click the buttons on the animations (http://www.kickthefog.com/how_works.htm)
Here is the link to the best lockpicking forum out there (IMHO) lockpicking 101 forum (http://www.lockpicking101.com).
Really you should start out picking wafer locks but most people dont want to learn that first they want to learn to pick house
locks (pin tumblers) which is perfectly fine but it gets way more difficult than pin and wafer locks. The best book available on
the subject, which also includes safe opening , is locks, safes, and security by marc weber tobias. 200 bucks but well worth it if
you are into security or breaking security.

Wafer locks aren't always easy - sometimes they can take 20 seconds!
Seriously, if someone was dumb enough to protect something like a chemical store with a cheap wafer lock, (ab)use it all you
can!
My garage front door had a wafer lock on it, and it was a well made one. I could never get it to open, even though I have
picked quite a few Yale type locks in my time, including actual Yale front door cylinders, bobbin pins and all. However, it was
obvious that a strong screwdriver would have opened it in a second or so, so I changed it anyway!
I would recommend you make your own tool for picking. go buy a cheap set of blue Allen keys. The larger ones can be ground
or filed down to make great wedges, hammer-style levers, etc. The mid size ones are great as tension tools, and the thinner
ones are great picks!
To make the picks, carefully (to avoid overheating) grind the edges down till you have a thin, long pick. Nice handle on it, too!
Make a few different sizes. They are seriously tough unless you kill the steel temper. To make the others, grind the shorter
edges into various wedge shapes.
I seriously have to build a better tension wrench, though. I want one that you fit to the lock, and which actually turns the
cylinder around the proper axis, rather than having to hang on the bottom of the keyway!
PsycHorse March 28th, 2004, 04:08 PM

Ok Guys ,
so you want to get into any Cylinder Lock Door in about 30 seconds ?
take a ~18v battery powered electric Drill and a ~3mm Steel drilling stick
now drill a hole at the point where the round inner cylinder meets the outer casing ( with the pins inside it ) >--- |||||
then put to needle/... inside the hole to prevent the upper pin peaces from falling down and the lower pin peaces from
popping back up
insert a screwdriver - turn - and you are in
btw : yes picking is more fun but in reality often to slow / unpredictable
btw : go and grab LSS_Locksmith from emule - contains everything for your needs
PsycHorse March 28th, 2004, 04:47 PM

Ok Guys ,
so you want to get into any Cylinder Lock Door in about 30 seconds ?
take a ~18v battery powered electric Drill and a ~3mm Steel drilling stick
now drill a hole at the point where the round inner cylinder meets the outer casing ( with the pins inside it ) >--- |||||
then put to needle/... inside the hole to prevent the upper pin peaces from falling down and the lower pin peaces from
popping back up
insert a screwdriver - turn - and you are in
btw : yes picking is more fun but in reality often to slow / unpredictable
DaRkDwArF April 2nd, 2004, 04:23 AM

I'll upload a rather good video to the ftp that goes into really good detail about lockpicking tonight, keep an eye out
DaRkDwArF April 2nd, 2004, 04:32 AM

it's the H2K2 lockpicking conference, the videos 600mb, and shows you how to use various tools and explains in detail how
tools and locks work
mrloud April 9th, 2004, 12:11 PM

A very interesting lecture it is too. I downloaded it from here yesterday http://connectmedia.waag.org/toool/h2k2-lockpicking-
vcd.mpg
jelly April 11th, 2004, 11:34 AM

Yes, it's a very recommendable database :)
If you want to see some nice pics of my favourite "un"pickable lock (springless locking pins!!!), look for "EVVA 3KS Laser Trace
System" in chapter 17 (3KS= 3-Kurven-System =3 curves system, manufactured by the austrian company EVVA).
link: http://www.evva.com/3ksInfoE.htm
PYRO500 September 2nd, 2004, 04:11 AM

As a locksmith myself I have a few tips to offer:
For starters dont get used to raking a lock as your primary means of opening it. often enough you can use a hook pick much
faster and open many more doors such as those that for some reason refused to open with a snake.
There are some situations that can make picking a lock extremely difficult. For anyone just starting to learn to pick locks try
and avoid locks with a really long pin in front of a short pin. When we run across that situation its time for a hook pick with
longer reach. Get to know your pick gun and picks, each one serves its own purpose and sometimes its much faster to use one
than the other if even the other will work. Generally though you want to practice with a hook pick that gives you consistant
results. Some people prefer to use a dimond pick but the hook will allow you to scrub the lock, pick it pin by pin, and
sometimes sets a few pins when you rake outwards.
in general the less picks you have to use on the locks you use the quicker you will be able to get locks open, so find the right
pick, determine how fast you need to be and if it isnt working split. more tools = more chance of loosing one and leaving
evidence.
Although those jacknife picks look neat the best ones I've found are the ones with metal handles that are riveted on. the only
flat steel pick that I use (with no handle) is the snake when I really need to feel inside the lock.
speaking of snakes, this pick is incredibly useful on wafer locks, especially those in glass display cases and some cam locks.
Now torque wrenches and tools.

The torque wrench that has proven to be the most reliable for me is the kind that come with the pick guns, one side has a
twist on it witch works great for cylinders that fit the kwikset keys, the twisted part goes right between the wards. in the schlage
type I find its easyer to use the flat end at the top of the keway, also this type of tension wrench is good for spinning the plug
if you pick it in the wrong direction and it stops, you make a larks head with a rubber band on one end, stretch the band and
hold the wrench in place and if you let go and it rotates fast enough your lock will flip around to the other side without needing
to re pick the lock.
As far as automotive locks go, dont even bother to pick them. Especially GM cars witch have a sidebar lock making picking very
hard and needing special tools to do it in any reasonable time and for what its worth a simple "air wedge" jammed in the door
will let you stick a rod through. I use a 3/16ths length of 420 stainless and it lets you hit door unlock buttons and pull handles
easily.
As far as going through the car, when using the airwedge, its best to try to get it as near to the top of the car as you can when
your path is not impeded by some things such as double striker bolts etc. On most fords simply pulling on the door handle will
unlock the doors and on some ford trucks with the handle in a recess that you squeeze to open, you have about a 2 1/2 inch
piece on the end of the rod that lets you twist the whole rod provided you have a good sturdy handle to twist with (my first rod
had an L shaped handle witch was about 4' now I have a triangular shaped handle and at the end where it crossed over the
rod I used an angle grinder to put a groove in it and wrapped wire around the overlap and coated it with liquid electrical tape)
On some cars there are simpler ways to get in. On pre 96 toyota camrys the vertical linkage could be moved upwards by
sticking a fondue fork in a hole under the handle (yes a fondue fork) and on chevy astro vans with the dutch doors (3 mini
doors, one that flips up, two to the sides) up untill 98 I believe you could take out the tag light and movet the bell crank
withyour finger or a screwdriver.
as far as the ignition locks. you probobly need an ignition drill template and if you try to rip it out you likely going to lock the
steering colum in place and breaking a steering lock is sometimes a mighty difficult thing to do.
anyways I'll get to some more advanced stuff sometime soon.
Scientist September 2nd, 2004, 07:08 AM

I hooked up a cheap tooth brush to a pick. I found that if I set the first 3-4 pins with it off the last one was easier. I am in the
process of writting an article on it.
So it actually worked and you could open a lock with it?
meselfs September 3rd, 2004, 08:10 PM

I personally use screws to make my picks. A screw (a good one at least) has the perfect heat treatment for this purpose.
Just get a few screws and grind them to shape. Make absolute sure you don't overheat them, you'll lose the heat treatment.
Finish-shape the tip with a file or (if you have it) rotary tool.
For a handle, I made a little pencil-like holder out of brass on my lathe that accepts anything with a 1/8 shank (I use it to
hold other things as well), so I ground the non-business end of each of my picks to 1/8. The interchangeability is very
convinient.
If you don't have a lathe, you can buy one of those carbide scribes from a hardware store, they cost 5$ and come with a
pencil-like handle that works perfectly.
When heat treating a torque wrench (made out of a nail), make sure you hold it in heat for at least a minute. Not heating long
enough is a very common mistake. In fact, when toolmakers do heat treatment with a decent furnace, they heat their
worpieces for (small stuff, eg hammer head) half an hour.
MIT guide is indeed a classic, but I find the section on making the picks to be trash :-< .
be_unique May 25th, 2006, 12:10 AM

Hi guys,
I haven't been on this site in ages, but I can pick, but am a bit of a noob at the moment.
I can pick simple padlocks (4 pins or less) and have tried front doors, filing cabnets and even some padlocks which I just can't
seem to get.
I've come to the conclusion that I just need more practise.
If anyone is interested in making their own picks, and doesn't want to look suspicious by going out and looking for a store
that sells them, Like here in AUS. I find that Hanksaw blades work very well when fashioned correctly.
But the chances are that all you guys already knew that.
If anyone has any additional advice for me to help me move on and grow into a better picker, would be appreciated.
Thanks.
irongriffin May 26th, 2006, 02:05 AM

Well For simple locks if you don't want to take the time to pick it you could spray some Freon gas into the lock and hit it with a
hammer.
T h o u gh this is not very subtle it sh ould work ve ry well unless it s a dead bolt.
Those I have no idea how to pick other than having lots of patience.
ShadowKnows November 7th, 2006, 06:46 AM

An excellent lockpicking primer can be found here:
http://deviating.net/lockpicking/topics.html
It includes movies and animations. Check out the section on padlocks and combination locks--these can easily be defeated
with shims made from sheet metal. One video shows how to open a bike lock with a Bic pen. These lockpicking methods give
you access to all kinds of goodies in an academic environment.
Hemisync November 8th, 2006, 09:30 AM
Anyone who has been lockpicking for a while has probably read the MIT Guide to lockpicking
WELL there is a new guide out that is even better
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/11/locksport_inter.html
I would be interested in your opinion of this guide. Do you see any major mistakes ?
NoltaiR November 9th, 2006, 02:24 PM

While there are many items that can only be opened by either the key or a lock-picking technique, do not forget what can be
opened by other techniques such as drilling into the bolt or other similar locking mechanism.
It is understandable that you may take some time to be nice and neat if you want your presence there to not be known. But if
you just want to crack into something just to get in, a drill, pair of bolt cutters, and a hacksaw can go a long way.
Russianesq November 30th, 2006, 07:46 AM

Can someone repost the material on rapidshare?
The files are no longer active.
vod8750 December 1st, 2006, 09:19 AM

Ordinary, modern locks have been done to death and its very easy to find information on picking techniques.
But what about the old style locks? The type that are usually used on interior doors in a house or school and can sometimes
be found on the exterior doors of old houses. The typical keyhole shape and the big keys with the round shaft and small
head.
Does anyone know how these types of locks work and how one would go about picking them? Or where one could find
documentation on the subject?
I have searched the internet but havent found anything. Of course it probably doesnt help that I dont know the official name
for that type of lock!
Cobalt.45 December 1st, 2006, 11:57 AM

Skeleton key?
They were traditionally very "pick friendly"
WMD December 4th, 2006, 03:12 AM

They are called warded locks. Most of these locks can be opened with a strong wire, bent into a z-shape (like this: '''''|_____O )
and with dimensions similar to the key.
When you use it don't try to use it like a key, instead put it into the lock with the short end turned upside, just like in my
'illustration'. Now you move it upwards, engage the bolt and try to pull the bolt sideways towards the middle of the door, away
from the door frame. Try it once and you know what I mean.
tiac03 December 5th, 2006, 05:25 PM

It's been said earlier in this thread but, for your questions about warded and lever locks the best place I've seen for that is
still lockpicking101.com . So go there and Use the search function and you will find all the information you need about them.
crosseout December 6th, 2006, 11:41 AM

I think that a certain frequence of the vibration is required.Has something to do with Eigenschwingung (sorry,but no online
dictonary helped me to find the correct english word).
no sir egensvingning or eigenschwingung...I do not now if there is any english word for it... but that does not have much to do
with lockpicking. Eigenshwingung is what makes a bridge or a glass brake, its about sound or air waves and the vibration of
the object...
the vibrations of the tool just helps open the lock as if its you who do the vibrations, only waay quicker;)

That sounds like "Q" or resonance to me.
And it has nothing to do with lockpicking, as far as I know.

I've seen on the multi-pick.de website a video demonstration of a tool that uses particular patterns of vibration to open high-
security locks, like DOM and ASSA.
Meawoppl December 7th, 2006, 12:56 PM

When it comes to DOM or ASSA locks, really your best bet is bump keys. For these strange keyways, they will cost 10 bucks a
pop, but they are extremely effective.
They are also the lazy mans lock pick and work great in the US because there is really only 2-3 different commonly used key
ways: kwikset, schlage, and masterlock (padlocks).
You can get these 3 bump keys on e-bay for like 10 bucks w/ shipping. After all once you cut yourself a good one, you can
copy it at home depot for a buck.
Cobalt.45 December 9th, 2006, 12:07 AM

You might also be surprised at how few different keys are used on each lock model. If you start collecting keys, eventually
you'll have a fair chance of opening a lock with another lock's key.
Granted, you can't go around with ten pounds of keys, but that being said, neither should you miss a chance at an easy entry
with a key.
As locks wear, they're even more susceptible to any kind of tactic. Especially to a key from a like lock.
The most common Master pad locks (and knock-offs) might be the worst in this regard.
Everybody knows any lock with a seam around it's circumference (read: Cheap) can be busted by hitting it on the seam while
backing the opposite side solidly. But you usually won't be so lucky.
_SAS_ January 22nd, 2007, 10:04 PM

It's good to be able to pick, even as a noob.
The other day I locked my dad's keys in his car... even though it was a 1984 landcruiser, it still was good to know that I could
pick.
On another note, where I live, it's going to look a bit sus for an 18 year old kid to go around to a lock smith or shop asking
for picks. So I made my own :) Hacksaw blades seem to work really well.
Can someone also explain to an ignorant noob, why you use different shaped picks. eg snakes, diamonds. etc. I seem to find
my hook pick quite capable in most situations.
paroxysm January 24th, 2007, 05:48 PM

I saw this video on google and I thought someone may be interested, its pretty self explanatory, but useful all the same;
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-9094641035220699727&q=lockpick+making
tiac03 January 25th, 2007, 02:50 AM

Can someone also explain to an ignorant noob, why you use different shaped picks. eg snakes, diamonds. etc. I seem to find
my hook pick quite capable in most situations.
When it comes to pin tumblers there are two main picking methods. SPP (Single pin picking) and Raking.
Your hook pick is for SPP along with the diamond, "snakes" and other picks with multiple heads are for Raking, and then there
are a bunch of other shapes designed to work in different locks or lock profiles. (Ball and double ball picks are used for wafer
locks for example.)
LSI has come out with a new free beginers guide to Lockpicking which will (along with LP101) answer every question you have
about lockpicking.
Link to guide...
http://locksport.com/home/index.php?entry=entry061027-222056
orangeman January 25th, 2007, 06:42 PM

I was wondering if the Pick guns work as well as people say they do.
I have found that raking has been the fastest way to get through a lock.
I was wondering if it is worth the money.
BlackFalcoN January 25th, 2007, 07:34 PM

I was wondering if the Pick guns work as well as people say they do.
In my experience they can be quite effective on a large selection of pin tumbler locks. It takes less time in general to open a
lock with them compared to picking/raking. ( Although a trained picking technique will open locks with smaller tolerances and
'anti-picking' protections, and raking generally doesn't take very much time either )
They require very little training to be efficient with them.
However, every 'snap' of the mechanism, makes a considerable amount of noise, which can be a factor for those 'super-silent'
stealth missions ;)
Another disadvantage is that most European locks tend to have their pins on the bottom of the keyway, which requires you to
flip the pickgun.
This way, the door-latch can become an obstacle since it sometimes will prevent you from inserting the needle straight into the
keyway.
(an angled needle can solve this problem most of the times though)
I own one, and I rarely use it anymore, since picking isn't that much slower on most locks once you get the feeling for it.
They do offer a way to open a good part of pin tumbler locks without much training or tools.
If you intend on using it a lot, I advice you to also look into electric pick-guns, since they use the same principle as 'snap'-
pick-guns, but vibrate the needle at a much higher speed, and are generally faster in my experience.
jamamee December 4th, 2007, 08:33 AM

I don t really know all that much abo ut lock p icking, I ve read quite a bit abou t it but never actually had any p ractice and from
what I can gather practice is what counts. One tip I have pick ed up th ough wa s don t get ca ught with any picks in your
p o s s e s sion , if you do you ll get fingered for every major job in the area fo r the last few years.
jrrdw December 13th, 2007, 09:45 AM

As a locksmith I feel compelled to tell every one reading this: If your not a locksmith, or directly working for a locksmith, the
carrying of lock picks can and will probably be viewed as carrying breaking and entering tools with contempt of committing a
breaking and entering crime.
Furthermore, any non forced entry theft reported in the general area can be blamed on you, the carrier of the lock picks. Any
real lock smith knows this and should not be reveling trade secrets on a internet forum to people you don't even know, much
less intend on doing lock work with.
This thread should not even be here, this is The Explosives and Weapons Forum, not a lock picking forum.
I hope I made my point positively clear!
Stay out of trouble guys.
(Please watch your spelling, and make sure the spell checker uses the correct words - megalomania)
Jackal1412 March 9th, 2008, 08:21 AM

A small bit of advice from a forum noob. I have dabbled in lock picking from time to time over the past four years. Here are a
couple of tips that I have been given; some on here already, some new.
I have heard that hacksaw blades work great for making your own lock picks for two reasons. The first being that you can
make two really 'good picks' from one blade. What I mean by two 'good picks' is that you can use the holes in the ends to
keep them on a small chain to keep them together. I tried this once, and it worked well, but they seemed too brittle.
What I ended up using, by complete happenstance, were parring knives. Simple, cheap, parring knives. You can pick up 4-6 at
any store of merit for about a dollar. The steel is typically spring steel, so it bends well if you are a little rough on your picks.
Other than this, the handle that most parring knives come with are plastic. You can leave this on there, or you can smash the
handle off and get the added benefit of being able to put it on a key chain. Thats right, it has a loop just like the hacksaw
blades do.
I hope this gives at least someone a little but of help somewhere along the lines. If you have read this far (or just skipped to
the last page of posts) and still don't know what a pick looks like, I encourage you to go out and find the MIT Guide To Lock
Picking, this guide has templates that you can use. I haven't been able to read the new MAKE guide yet, but it sounds
promising.
Also, if you, like myself, are still young and do not work for a lock smith, then don't get caught carrying these around, it will
NOT look good, no matter what you say.
BlackFalcoN March 11th, 2008, 10:42 AM

I think most people in the lockpick community now-a-days make their own lockpicks from windshield wiper blades since the
material of the blades is better suited for long time use.
The procedure is exactly the same as for hacksaw blades; you select a digital template, print it 1:1 on paper, cut out the
'metal side' from the paper, glue it temporary on the metal blank and with a rotary tool or bench grinder remove all the
excess metal. Since you don't want the metal to become too soft and retain it's springiness, it's recommended to quench the
lockpick in water whenever you detect the buildup of heat while grinding. Afterwards you de-bur the crude pick with emery cloth
to remove all sharp and uneven edges and polish them till they are smooth and glide through the keyway without too much
resistance.
I have digital template images of most Brockhage, HPC, LAB, Peterson & SouthOrd picks (hint: those are established lockpick
manufacturers, for the total n00b ;) ).
If anyone is interested in them, I can upload them if you want.
Bugger March 11th, 2008, 10:46 AM

I have digital template images of most Brockhage, HPC, LAB, Peterson & SouthOrd picks (hint: those are established lockpick
manufacturers, for the total n00b ;) ).If anyone is interested in them, I can upload them if you want.Yes, please upload them
for us.
BlackFalcoN March 11th, 2008, 11:00 AM

You can find the templates on the FTP in /UPLOAD/BlackFalcoN/Lockpick Templates/
The whole collection is about 240 MB of drawings and images of most commercial lockpicking gear around.
( I'm still uploading them at the moment, but since this can take a while with my slow connection, I'm providing the link now.)
A scale reference is included in most photos to allow for proper rescaling.
Charles Owlen Picket March 11th, 2008, 11:39 AM

That's really great; many thanks. I experimented with my own picks for a few years and got hooked (no pun intended) on
"rolling my own". I find that I worked out some designs that I always wanted but didn't want to buy (Peterson's, etc).
There is a source of steel that I found that was fantastic. I don't know if it's available in Europe....
There is a plumbing supply company called "Brass" that sells snakes made from surplus spring steel. Very large quantities of
extremely high quality steel are available via those snakes. There is also a company called "Greenlee" that sells a wire puller
made from fantastically high quality spring steel.
A high grade wire puller is an interesting tool in itself. With a spool of self-contained roll-up steel, one can fashion a very long
reach automobile opening tool of any tip design that can reach across a vehicle and change the tip element at will (just cut off
the previous one and make another).
tiac03 March 13th, 2008, 08:54 PM

I have heard that hacksaw blades work great for making your own lock picks for two reasons.... I tried this once, and it worked
well, but they seemed too brittle.
Use new blades (Used ones tend to have been abused enough to be weak), and If grinding with a grinder or Dremel, you can
easily heat up your metal passed the point of being a useful pick. If it changes color when grinding it you have made it brittle
enough to break on you.
Take your time, when it heats up to the point that it is uncomfortable to hold dip it in water to cool it down and repeat.
Personally my favorite for picks is brick strap (metal straps that hold things together like bundles of lumber, bricks or tiles).
Lots of it, easy to work with and strong enough to make a very nice pick.
totenkov March 15th, 2008, 12:30 AM

A simple set of feeler gauges from the dollar store are much more durable and long lasting. Spring steel looses its temper
easily, so quench regularly. Hacksaw blades are thick in terms of picks and bend.

I like feeler gages as they allow for a "pocket knife" configuration in the completed product and several of the same designs
made in varying thicknesses....When I get the chance to buy them cheap I get quite a few...
I came across a set of stone wheels that were once very expensive (Norton Abrasive mfg.) and setup a very nice machine that
cuts so well, that heat is virtually non-existent (if done with some deliberation). --- White and pink Arkansas variety, not the
carborundum type; they cost a mint, but I got 'em from a surplus yard.
a3990918 March 16th, 2008, 11:19 PM

I like feeler gages as they allow for a "pocket knife" configuration in the completed product and several of the same designs
made in varying thicknesses....When I get the chance to buy them cheap I get quite a few...I.
If you need several picks of the same thickness, feeler gage stock is available in bulk rolls or strips at most wholesale
machine tool & accessory dealers. Would probably save time, money and clutter over buying several sets to acquire a couple
of pieces of stock.

I don't know about anyone else but I go through periods & phases of the lockpicking hobby wherein I get into new ideas, get
my feel back (I loose that in as little as a week of no picking) and get turned on to it all over again, but from a different
angle. I look at all the shit I've collected over the years and it started OUT with simple picks and turned into fucking
locksmithing on a minor scale.
EDIT:
I also realize that for the last few years I've become accustomed to closing my eyes on occasions. Especially with padlocks of a
med-level quality. (5000 series master, etc). I HAD a bore scope that I used to use but I had to return it to my neighbor and
THAT was a Hell of a learning tool. It allowed you to see into what you're picking and hence to visualize later what and where I
was doing. I got into Impressioning sometime back and never looked back. That actually came easier than picking and I
bought some machines from a buddy (a mid-level Ilco and a small Speedex) that came with a shit-load of keys...just seemed
a waste not to get into Impressioning.
a3990918 March 17th, 2008, 02:06 PM

it started OUT with simple picks and turned into fucking locksmithing on a minor scale.
if it's a passion you can live with, then let it roll my man...:)

Does anyone else enjoy Impressioning as much as I do? I really get a kick out of it. I was looking for a thread that is not a
few years old but couldn't find anything.... For that matter, what other endeavors have people done after picking toward higher
and higher security strength locks? I pulled a couple of side-bar auto locks but mounting them was a bitch and I finally hot-
glued them to a board with a few other tougher locks.
tiac03 March 19th, 2008, 07:16 PM

I've only attempted impressioning twice, First time I didn't get to finish it (because I was working), second time I spent about
15 mins (in a period of 4 hours) on it and managed to mess it up due to once again being at work and rushed.
One day I'm bound to find time to give it a real go.


Being rushed can ruin a wet dream.....Screws everything up badly. Impressioning also can be made MUCH easier if you have
available the correct materials. The best thing for low cost (just my opinion here of course) is proper magnification. If you are
setting up your blank in a manner that will take a mark well; you must be able to see that mark continually.
I tried carbon black, a marker, etc....but IF you have really good quality magnification.... rubbing with steel wool is fantastic. It
leaves a microscopic series of striation lines in one direction and the interruption of those lines via the pin impression is easy
to identify.
The interruption of the lines is also made so as to not be easy to simply wipe off. What's more if you use care with the
preparation with steel wool, the ridges will give you more information on when to STOP making your cut as well!
WMD March 23rd, 2008, 05:19 PM

Most important thing for me when doing impressioning is good light. I've found that led-lights give a nice soft light.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Targeting with Ballistic
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MrSamosa April 3rd, 2003, 12:55 PM

After watching the news from Iraq, I frequently hear the reporters saying things along the lines of, "W e h a v e b e e n t a k i n g i n
b o u n d m o r t a rs, so we need to m ove from this position. The first two m ortars were off, but what the Iraqis d o is fire three
m ortars that are off, but then the fourth one is dead on ."
That basically sums up how it works. Apparently, when firing m ortars, the Iraqis "Triangula te" the enemy's position... The first
m ortar m ay be too fa r to the north, the next one too far to the east, the third too far South-W est, but the fourth is directly on
target.
Does anybody know how this works? Are there some calculations that the Mortar Teams do?
This would be very interesting, because it provides a very cheap way to have dead-on aim. The US Military likes to put GPS
guid ance system s and airbrak e s i n t h i n g s a s s e e m ingly sim ple as an artillery she ll! However, the "Triangulation" that the Iraqis
d o s e e m s s o m uch easier and cheaper. Furthermore, th is could be applied to other ballistic projectiles, like Short Range
Missiles. The y would be fired in groups of four...
The first thre e would be fired with an observer m onitoring where they land, and he would report that back to the fire-team. The
fire-team , in turn, m akes that one crucial calculation, and the fourth m issile would hit dead on. But does anyone know how this
is done???
firebreether April 3rd, 2003, 03:47 PM

Doesn't sound like it works all that good, if the people you are firing at k now that they have a good chance of being toast, a n d
leave before you ever get the chance to fire that fourth shot. In most applications that i can think of, you n e e d t o b e d e a d o n
the first time .
Are you absolutely su re that they dont just guestim ate the launch of the first one, then just try to adjust un til they hit dead on,
and that it ju st generally takes four shots to get it dead on?
S e e m s to m e, that you dont need to triangulate, but rather, it is easy en ough to aim dead for a target late rally, bit getting the
range perfect is the tough part. So if you fire one shot a little too far, and one shot a little to close, you have a prety good
guess as to get the range just right on the next shot.
W ind will affect a m issile alot m ore than a mortar shell, so if the re is a high wind, it would be really tough to get the m issile to
aim prefectly at all.
Tuatara April 3rd, 2003, 06:52 PM

From what I've heard it is com mon for artillery to rely on a forward observer to correct aim. I'd imagine there are m any thing s
that would affect the trajectory of a shell - wind, tem perature, air pressure, gun temperatu re, shell propellant tem perature ....
If you think about it, it should b e a r e a s o n a b l y s i m ple linear algebra problem. Yo u've got two unknowns - elevation and
azim uth - so you nee d t h r e e e q u a t i o n s , h e n c e t h r e e r a n g e f i n d i n g s h o t s .
S e e m s a bit tough on your am m o stockpile, if you can only get 25% on target :p
Ghostcustom 24 April 3rd, 2003, 10:21 PM

Actually, to the best of m y knowledge 25% hits is not to bad for a m ortar. Especially when you have a m oving target. In that
case I im agine it usually com es down to luck and/or skill and ex perience.
I k n o w s o m e people whom I can ask how the U .S. works their mortars. I will get back to you guys tomorrow.
Microtek April 4th, 2003, 02:07 PM

W ell, when I was in the arm y I was the one doing the calculation s for a section of 81 m m m ortars so I can explain:
The observer spots a target which needs to be reasonably stationary ( say an infantry platoon ), he then finds their exact
position using a map and calls the fire direction team ( FDT ) giving them this position and requesting a certain amount and
type of shelling on that position.
Now, the FDT have already m easured the prevailing wind and using this data to correct the simple ballistic arc of an inert
projectile, they fire one or two shells from the center m ortar. Because there will always be variables that cannot be k nown, the
shell will not ( usually ) fall ex actly as calculated so the observer notes where it went in relation to the target. He then requests
another rang ing shell - if the first shot fell too short, say by 40 meters, he will generally ask the FDT for another shell to go
forward 60 or 80 meters in relation to the last setting. T his improves the chances of hitting with the third round ( which will th e n
be fire-for-effect; all the m ortars firing a pattern of 6-15 shells ) and tends to pin t h e e n e m y better than two shells on the
s a m e side.

W ell, that is just about what I was told except that I asked abou t a single mortar team an d I got the im pre ssion that if
a m munition was not a factor then they would keep adjusting the m ortar as they fire (pumping out as m a n y a s p o s s i b l e ) .
Gargoylebrother April 8th, 2003, 06:13 AM

Actuall when fireing a mortor what you do is use perdeterm ined targets when avaliable and then all you do is adjust
acco rdingly. But if you dont have any perdeterm ined targets then what you do is gage the range of the target and fire a shot
and see where it hits by use o f a spotter if the round hits say 20 0m to th e s o u t h a n d 1 0 0 m to the west then all you do is
adju st your mortor for the diference. its perty m uch guess work and som e g o o d m ath. Also on the 3 shot thing it takes about
o n a d v e r a g e 3 s h o t s t o s e t t h e b a s e p l a t e o n a m o r t o r t h e b a s e p l a t e i s a l a r g e h e a v e y s t a t o i n a r y p l a t e t h a t once its set deeply
enough into the ground its not moving easily once its set you know the mortor isnt m oving you can accuratly adjust the mortor
for range and winddrift. Thats why it takes 3 or so shots before they can hit there target. Also on another note m ortors are
d a m n sweet with a sm all mortor battery of 4 mortor you can put off m ore firepower than a large battery of 105s but with
siginfetly less range.
Leadazide April 17th, 2003, 09:53 PM

Firebreather said
-< Doesn't sound like it works all that good, if the people you are firing at know that they have a good chance of being toast,
and leave before you ever get the chance to fire that fourth shot. In m ost applica tions that i can think of, you need to be dead
on the first time. >-
First of all it's rarelly that 4 shells are used to get the aim right. While I was in the arm y on a 81 m m m orter, we usually had
the target with 2 shells and fired for effect on the third....and that in less then 3-4 min, depending on the range.
Second of all I would never leave my foxhole or any other cover while shells were falling around m e!! I would just lay low and
pay to what ever god that was willing to listen that no shell hit m y hole!!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > R /C tank help
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A-BOMB April 9th, 2003, 12:44 PM

W ell, I'm guessing th is would go here, because its to do with building things. W ell last year they were having a sale at m e local
R a t s h a c k t o s e l l o f a m assive over stock of old R/C cars and trucks after christma s , w e l l s e e i n g t h a t I h a d a n e x c e s s o f m o n e y
then I bought the big gest R/C truck they had a huge 4 wheel drive 2x 7.2v battery beohem oth. After a while its orig inal plastic
cover got old , so I rip ped it off well things went down hill from there. To make a long story short, a ll I have left of it is the
front/rear drives the 4wheels and the transmite r. So I desided to m ake a tank from it by putting the m otor unit parallel to each
o t h e r , e x s t e n d i n g t h e a x l e s a n d a t t a c h i n g t h e g e a r b o x a t a r i g h t a n g l e t o t h e a x le so when the power to a drive it cut it stops
and locks the wheels so it acts as a brake turning the tank in that direction.
Now on to the part wh e r e I n e e d h e l p , f o r t h e o r i g i n a l g e a r b o x e s I u s e d l e g o s g e ars and blocks well they q uickly got chewed
u p , s o n o w I n e e d t o m a k e n e w g e a r s . S o I n e e d y o u r h e l p , I ' v e got the 2 gears that I need to copy, but no idea on how, I am
tryin g to m a k e t h e m out of either AL/brass or epoxy (it might work its alm ost plastic). Now to copy them , I was thinking sand
c a s t i n g b u t t h a t l e a v e s t h e e d g e s o f t o r o u g h t o u s e , t h e n I t h o u g h o f u s e i n g a w a x m old, but that one won't work with AL or
brass but does work with epoxy. But to r e m o v e t h e e p o x y g e a r I m u s t t e a r o f f t h e w a x s o I n e e d t o m a k e a n e w m old for
every gear ,it works for the sm aller gear but no t for the large gear that will be connected to the wheel. And then I th ought
about useing pottery clay, it m ight take the heat of the molten AL and the epoxy for sure but still I would have too break the
m old to get the gear out. So I'm stumped, I can either make the gears out of PB weld or PC -7 epoxy or resin, but those m ight
not hold up well or I can m a k e t h e m out of AL, but the AL ones being m uch harder m a k e . D o e s a n y b o d y k n o w a n y t h i n g t h a t
will m a k e a g o o d r e l e s e i n g a g ent I've tried borax, talcum powde r, chalk, graphite, any other ones that m ight work that I
wouldn't have a hard time finding?
And BTW is the FTP h aveing m atainance or a down? because I was going to post a pic to help explain this post but it wouldn 't
load .
P l e a s e h e l p m e anyone, I really have to finish this thing so I can get all the parts of the my workbench.
<sm all>[ April 09, 2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: A-BOMB ]
zaibatsu April 9th, 2003, 02:53 PM

Lost-wax casting. Basically you'd need to make a mold of the gear, pour hot wax in and rem ove the wax when it'd cooled.
Then I think you can cover the wax pretty well in clay, let that harden but leave a gap near the top. Then m el t up som e
alum inium and pour it in. It'll vapourise the wax, and result in a very accurate copy. However, I can rem e m b e r f u c k a l l a b o u t
this method, but a google search will bring up LOTS of results on this. Make the mold with latex so you can easily rem o v e t h e
wax.
Or, sand cast a new gear and just dremel/file the gear smooth. Shouldn't be too hard as you've only got to get the teeth
s m o oth. Graphite or chalk are supposed to be good releasing agents I think.
Putting "hom e foundry" into google should get you all the info you need to cast some new gears.

I tried it with sand the teeth of the gear are too sm all for the AL to get fully into, then when I tried to fill it sm ooth I lost to
m uch of the m e t a l o n t h e g e a r teeth that it didn't fit up with the gear correctly. Do you think gears made out of epoxy would
hold up? Because the y w o u l d b e m u c h e a s i l e r t o m a k e , a n d t h e f a c t t h a t I 2 q u a r t s o f P C - 7 e p o x y t o u s e u p .

Personally, I'd go into a m o d e l s h o p a n d a s k a bout replacement gears for RC drive trains.
Casting gears, especially in such a low mod as RC cars use would be a m ean feat that I'd rather now try...

W hy do you think tha t I'm trying to cast m y own, I've been to alm ost every m o d e l s h o p i n a d o z e n m i l e s a n d t h e o n l y g e a r
that would of worked had a sh aft size that was way to big(and to e x p e n s i v e ) . B u t d o y o u t h i n k e p o x y w i l l m a k e g o o d g e a r s ?
Tuatara April 9th, 2003, 06:23 PM

Don't waste your tim e m aking Al gears. They will disinte grate fast, Al is too soft and sticky. You want to use brass, bronze or
silicon bronze. The latter two are good for casting.
W hat gear ratio do you want? You could buy two cheap cordless drills and scavenge the planetary gear system s o u t o f t h o s e -
they will handle a lot of torque. The one I stripped down had a nylon set for the high speed section and sin tered (som ething)
for the low speed section. Planetary boxes are nice and compact too.
Can you get Meccano?
Failing that, go to a gear cutting shop and get them m a d e !
Edit: If you try epoxy it will need to be loaded with som ething for wear resistance - iron po wder? glass fibre? carbon fibre?
Molybdenum disulphide?
<sm all>[ April 09, 2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Tuatara ]
A-BOMB April 10th, 2003, 11:54 AM

W ell I don't need any ratio, I cant really explain this correctly so I'll try to put this in. You see in th e drawing that I need the
gears to change the direction of turn to a 90* from the drive train, and I've already tried to find a gear shop but I couldn't find
one close to me. I have alot of steel shaving all over th e floor in m y l a b a n d s o m e graphite so what ratios of metal to epoxy
should I use? And zaibatsu where can I get latex from other than m elting down gloves?
</fo nt><blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-sm all; font-
family: m o n o s p a c e ; " >
/|
/ |
/ |
| |
| |
]]]]]]]]]| |]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]{whee l shaft}
| |
\ |
/------\ \ |
/ \ \|
/__________\
[]
[]
[]
[]
[]
[] {shaft from drive u nit}
</pre><hr /></blockquote>

No wonder you couldn't get an y from a m odel shop, you're after a set of bevel ge ars and AFAIK aren't used in m o d e l s .
H a v e y o u c o n s i d e r e d u s i n g u n iversal joints? Using two in series on each shaft, you should be able to get the 90* angle you
g e t . T h e s e s h o u l d b e a v a i l a b l e f r o m a model shop. But if you want 4wd, needing 8 of them m ight be a bit pricey.

W hat are "universal joints"? its sounds like weed. I was going to use righ t angle drill attachm ents that allow you to drill in close
spaces, beca use they already made but being to go forward all the shafts are turning right 2 of the wheels would be g o i n g
forward and 2 back. But still any idea on how to m elt latex or rubber like that m a k e a m old? I m ade a casting of the gear in
wax this m orning and filled it with PC-7 epoxy, I'm waiting for it to dry so I can try it out.
Tuatara April 10th, 2003, 05:53 PM

I'm a bit puzzled as to why yo u w a n t t h e 9 0 d e g b e n d . T h e b e v e l g e a r s y s t e m wont lock the wheels as described in your first
post. Only a worm drive will do that, but the gear ratio will be so high your tank will crawl, though you could probably tow a
house with it :D
Tanks drive left wheels as a set and right wheels as a set, so wh y not link them with a belt and pulley system. Then put your
m otors across the vehicle (opposite orientations) and drive the belt with another pulley on each m o t o r . I f y o u u s e t o o t h e d
b e l t s / p u l l e y s y o u s h o u l d g e t a g o o d r e sult.
BTW isn't the explosives and weapons forum kinda the wrong place to discuss m odel tank s? Unless you're building a robot
suicide bom ber...
kingspaz April 10th, 2003, 06:09 PM

once he has it working i'm sure he'll have a few shotguns on it :D
what m a k e i s t h e m o d e l c a r ?
try a search on the net for the c o m p a n y website. you could order som e s p a r e s .

Late x is available from GR P suppliers, such as <a href="http://www.cfsne t.co.uk/acatalog/
CFS_Catalogue_Latex_Dipping_Rubber_163.htm l" target="_blank">this one</a>
Also, if you cannot find one of these (which you should be able to) I think it is used in the atrical productions to sim u l a t e s k i n .

This is a universal joint:
<img src="http://www.huco.com / i m a g e s/huco-pol_universal.jpg" alt=" - " />
It allows a drive shaft to deviate off at an angle.
Considering the low torque of your application, a piece of strong flexible hose could be used as a universal joint. Th is m e t h o d
of coupling d rive shafts is quite comm o n . I o n c e d i s a s s e m bled a tum ble dryer that used a short length of hose secured with
jubilee clips to transm it the drive from its m otor.
I'd be interested in how the gear casting goes.
Energy84 April 10th, 2003, 08:09 PM

Go back to your m o d e l c a r s h o p a n d a s k f o r a s e t o f S T O CK differential gears for a Kyosho Sandmaster ST-2 Stadiu m Truck. I
had this m odel and it had a set of 4 beveled gears just like you describe d in the differential. Make sure it's the stock diff
t h o u g h b e c a u s e m o s t a f t e r m arket diffs are ball differen tials. It should only be a few dollars, they're not too expensive, and
IIR C , t h e y a r e a b o u t t h e s a m e s i z e a s t h e l e g o b e v e l g e a r s .
I just that yo u can still get parts for it though because that m o d e l h a s b e e n d i s c o n t i n u e d l a s t y e a r I t h i n k . . .
Edit: I just checked m y parts catalogue for the part num bers. Prices are in USD from Tower Hobbies (1999).
K Y O C 2336 SM-06 Bevel Gear A $3.89
K Y O C 2337 SM-07 Bevel Gear B $1.45
I can't rem e m ber which is which, but they're cheap enough to just get both and figure out which one is best. IIRC, they com e in
packs or eith er 2 or 4 .
BTW , the Sandm aster ST-2 is a .12 nitro truck, so I'm sure the gears will be plenty strong for you.
<sm all>[ April 10, 2003, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Energy84 ]
A-BOMB April 11th, 2003, 12:11 AM

E n e r g y I s e e a b o u t t h o s e g e a r s , T u a t a ra, the g ears them self won't lock but the shafts on the drive unit lock when there is no
power applied. And I already though of spring as "unive rsal joints" but th at still wouldn't work because with all the shafts
turning in the sam e direction 2 wheels would turn forward and 2 back. And the m ake of the car I Radio Shack brand it was
n a m e d s o m ething du mb like country destoryer or atomic tank.

Holy shit! Energy84 those gear where expensive, the first gear is now $6.53 and the second is $4.21, plus the store would have
to special order them because there discontinued and I would have to pay shipping. So $6.53x4 and $4.21x4(plus 4x of each
for replacements) equals way to much. I think I'll stick with making m y o wn. Well I got som e liquid electrical tape a few days
ago and have slowly build up a 1/16" layer of rubber on the gear so now I have a m old to m ake wax gears with now. And I
h a v e t r i e d m a k i n g a e p o x y g e a r , a n d i t l o o k s g o o d b u t a f e w a i r p o c k e t s o n t h e t e e t h s o n e x t t i m e I need to thin out the
e p o x y s o m e to alow all the air to rise to the surface. Sure it will take longer but there will be no air pockets now which will ruin
the gear. I'll post a picture of the hole setup in a minute. But I still have no Idea no how to cast the bigger gear. Its to big to
m a k e a r u b b er mold of, and to big to m a k e a w a x t o o , s o I ' m thinking i'll have to cut the teeth ou t manually with a m o d e l
k n i f e o u t o f s o m e balsa or wax and use that to m a k e a m old :rolleyes:
Energy84 April 18th, 2003, 02:42 AM

O u c h , t h a t s u c k s t h a t t h e g e a r s a r e s o e x p e n s i v e n o w . M a y b e y o u c o u l d a s k a r o u n d s o m e o t h e r R C m e s s a g e b o a r d s to find
out if there are any other m o d e l s t h a t u s e b e v e l g e a r s s o m ewhere in the drivetrain.
For som e r e a s o n , s o m e t h i n g t e l l s m e that you might have luck am o n g m odel railroad enthusiasts...
Tuatara April 20th, 2003, 06:52 AM

If your want to get the bubbles out of your epoxy, put a bell jar, or sim ilar, over the m ould and pull a m o d e r a t e v a c u u m . Y o u ' d
probably get sufficent vac with a domestic vacuum cleaner. No need for a fancy pum p, you'd only end up boiling all the
volatiles out!
A-BOMB May 6th, 2003, 01:31 PM

W ell forget m e a n d m y epoxy gears I just foun d s o m e that will work in m y junk room where we keep all the old toys, national
g e o g r a p h i c s , t a x e s , f o r m s , a n d shit we aren't u seing. W ell I was in there looking for the window screens for m y front porch
wind ows, and I found this old contruction set that I had when I was a kid called a 'Gearopolis' well I found some perfect gears
there a bit big and a hideous purpleish color nothing a can of sp ray paint wont fix . And if you can find one of these kit the
plastic snap together belts for the gears m a k e g r e a t t a n k t r e a d s .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > line thrower
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rjche August 15th, 2002, 08:31 PM

t a k e a c o m m ercial sling shot with surgical tubin g elastic.
take a spinning reel from a fishing rig
attach the spinning reel to the left side of the handle of the sling shot. U s e s o m e b o n d o t o g e t a s o l i d m ating, and two cable
ties to clamp the reel there.
have the line exit pointing up, and roo m for your right thum b a b o v e t h e r e e l m ount ant the left y prong of the slingshot.
put a half or quarter ounce conical sinker on the line (6 lbs test ok)
hold the slingshot in right han d with thum b s n u g under left Y prong.
clik the reel to release the line for spinning out
feed the sinker around front of the prongs, via the fork back to the pad.
pull the pad and release and the sinker will go great distances, depending on the am ount of line on the reel.
easy to put it clean over sm all buildings.
it then can pull up a larger nylon string, say 50 lbs test or more
by a ttaching that to the sinker and rewinding the reel.
that larger line can pull up a rope, and then anything desired can be pulled to the building top, including a person holding on
like a rapeller and wa l k i n g u p t h e s i d e o f t h e b u i l d i n g a s s o m e o n e p u l l s t h e r o p e , O R if in good sh a p e , t i e t h e o t h e r e n d o f
rope and pull yourself up by a rm power.
This rig is very sm all, only a tad larger than the reel, easily carried, and easy to be accurate with.
A fishing pole will do the sam e but it takes m ore skill to put the sinker where you need it.
to m ake a climbing rope, tie a knot every foot of its len gth.
then with gloves your hands will not blister, nor slip and you can clim b it.
another way is to tie a foot loop each 2 feet so feet can "walk" u p the rope like a ladder by putting f e e t i n a l t e r n a t e h o l e s a n d
u s i n g t h e m a s s t e p s . M u c h e a sier on arm s that way.
Don't use nylon rope for it will stretch enough to make lots of trouble. po lyproplene is a good non stretching cheap rope,
available in m arine stores.
you don't need large safety factors on rope to climb small buildings.
a rope with 2 00 lbs breaking test is safe for a person weighing u p to about 150 lbs.
W ise to test it for damaged spots by p utting your full weight on it and jum ping as hard as you are likely to do, in an accidental
slip.
Rig the test so you stay close to the ground, so if it breaks you don't fall m ore than a yard or so.
PYRO500 August 15th, 2002, 09:28 PM

Moving to To o l s , T e c h n i q u e s , a n d P l a n s...
Did you actually m ake this device? it seem s to me that most reels would have too much jerk or pull to have the line ratchet out
easily with a slingshot and travel in a straight p arobla. I think a better ch oice would be som ething round up on witch the fishing
line is wrapped around, perhaps a sm all length of pvc pipe. You would have the line unravel with the least am ount of
resistance if the tube were lined up with the arc of the flight of the line. it also m ight work better if you attached the spool or
the piece of pipe holding the line right underne ath the Y of the slingshot
<sm a l l > [ A u g u s t 1 5 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 8 : 2 9 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : P Y R O 500 ]</sm all>

Lockmasters makes this exact thing. I'm not sure if it's findable on the net, but it's in their catalog.
It's just a cheap wooden slingshot with a reel on the front. If me mory serves, the reel doe s infact face upwards. You'd think it
would face toward the target like a fish ing rod... oh well.
nbk2000 August 16th, 2002, 09:11 AM

Such a thing might be useful for gettin g a line up to the ladders on water towers, high tension towers, billboards, etc, or up into
trees with no low branches (perving/hiding/sniping).
Though, by its very nature, it's not something you could have an innocent explanation for the cops if they spot you with it.
A sim ple slingshot with a fishing lure on the end of the m onoline works just as we ll. Sim ply lay out the needed length in
s e v e r a l l o n g l o o p s b e tween you and th e target and let fly.
As for rope, if you get a rope over a ro und part of the structure, like a ladder rung or such, you can simply pull yourself up by
pulling down on the free end. Sim ply tie a stick to the rope, sit on it (the rope being between your legs), and pull down on the
free end.
The round part acts a s a pulle y and it's easy as fuck to go up or down with speed and little effort. I've used the black and
orange polyprop rope for going up into tall tree s doing this. Though the rope strips off the bark wh ich falls on your head. :( I'd
also "retire" a rope used for this after about 4 uses because it easily frays doing this and would be d a n g e r o u s t o u s e
afterwards.

h e m ...sorry for this post but i d like to em a i l t o y o u n b k 2 0 0 0 .
c o u l d u s e n d m e a n e m a i l a t b o n n s g e o @ y a h o o .fr ?
thx
++++++++++++++++++++++
W hy? W hat do you want to discuss? I don't just toss out m y e-m ail to anyone who asks. T hat's why I've had the sam e o n e f o r
3 ye ars, because I'm selective about who knows about it, thus no spam.
<sm a l l > [ A u g u s t 1 9 , 2 0 0 2 , 1 2 : 5 9 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : n b k 2 0 0 0 ] < / s m a l l >

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Detonator transport/storage
box
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mark August 23rd, 2002, 04:34 PM

Hello all. Ive been looking for a way to safley transport a detennator or two safley to a friends house, and I think I've found
the perfect carying case. Its m a d e o f p o l y m e r a n d f o a m lined. Its airtight, waterproof, and has a decom p r e s i o n v a l v e ( u s e l e s ? )
Do you guys think this would be a safe way to cary a few AP caps, or is ju s t a f a o m l i n e d g renade waiting to h a p p e n ? W i l l t h e
foam help lessen blast pressure should a cap acidently go off? Thanks.
<a href="http://www.casesbypelican.com /pelican-cases-sizes.htm" target="_blank">http://www.casesbypelican.com /pelican-

cases-sizes.htm</a>
p.s. Im sorry if this was the wrong section to post this in, but I wasnt sure which section this fits into.
zaibatsu August 23rd, 2002, 05:11 PM

W ell, if you want to buy a case I guess those look fine, but if I was you, I'd just make one. Just m a k e a n o r m al hin g e d b o x
o u t o f s o m ething like plywood , then insert a rectangle of plywood with ho les drilled through that the detona tors can fit through,
so its sim ilar to a test tube rack. Then you can fill with TP padding or whatever. It'd be cheaper than buying one. Maybe you
could just fill the plywood box with plaster of paris, using a m old to allow the deto nators to be slid in. This m ight have an effect
sim ilar to the one that NBK m e n t i o n e d ( c o m pre s s e d p u m ice) so the AP would use m ost of its energy blasting the plaster to
dust, leaving very little shrapnel. But really anything will work, as long as it stops the dets. being subjected to sharp knocks.
0EZ0 August 23rd, 2002, 09:51 PM

I have often pondered the transport of com pleted detonators. But unless a transport case is tested to see how well it could
take a blast, then i would not use such a thing.
I do remeber that thread on a transport box lined with pum ice (That floating volcanic rock). It sounded like a g r e a t i d e a .
Maybe one could inco rporate the sam e idea with a bought case?
PYRO500 August 23rd, 2002, 10:50 PM

R e m ember now, the pum i c e / e p o x y r e s i n b o x i s d e s i g n e d t o i s o l a t e t h e e x p l o s i o n from setting off other HE's m e a n i n g y o u m a y
have a detonator blow around tons of pum ice buyt you'll leave a ll the rest untouched, unless you use a sensitive primary such
as AP.
Magas S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2002, 12:19 PM

I com mercially transp ort m y detonators both plain & ele ctric in a 50cal metal amm o box that is lined with plywood and painted
red with det stickers. Meets all the exp losive legislation for dang erous goods transport, is water & dust proof and lockable. And
C h e a p f r o m any surplus store.
Microtek S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2002, 01:07 PM

W ell for one thing, I would use a m o d u l a r d e t o n a t o r d e s i g n , m e a n i n g t h a t a s m a l l p e l l e t o f p r i m ary ( 0.05-0.1 g ) would be
carried separate from t h e b a s e c h a r g e .
Secondly, I would use a carrying case that was m uch larger than the dets.
Thirdly, I would m ake sure that only the sides of the case that was facing m e was strong ( steel or alum inium ); the rest
should be thin plywood. This way, any fragments would be directed away from myself.
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2002, 03:17 PM

Y o u c a n g e t p u m ice very cheaply. Just fill the container with the appropriate sized pum i c e c h u n k s , t h e n u s e e x p a n d i n g f o a m
sealant (Great-Stuf) to lock it in place.
A breicase is ready m ade for carrying. Make a hole alm ost the size of the lid, and cover with cardboard. The bottom has a few
m m thick steel plate. The body is filled with foamed pum ice, and slots cut into it for your dets to fit into.
matjaz January 10th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 8 : 0 4 P M

To just carry a detonator or two somewhere, this might be a cheap and safe way:
For $2 I bought a few pieces of 1/2" water pipe fittings and two "radiator" type endcaps all of which could be screwed together
into a handy carry case for blasting caps. I drilled a 2.5m m (0.1") gas vent hole (the black dot on the piece in front of the pen
in the left ph oto). The whole thing weighs 250g .
I just dream t of testing it:

The test charge was 1g of AP, pressed into an Al capacitor can and ignited electrically through the venting h ole. As you can see,
t h e d e t o n a t o r nearly pulverize d its tube, but the piping survived extreme ly well. O nly the flat endcap closer to the detonation
poin t developed a slight curva ture. The waterpipe endcaps should probably be used - they are m uch thicker than the radiato r
ones.
Not only the piping contained all the schrapnel, it also silenced the bang to a pathetic "bwufff", which is quite an issue when
s o m ething explodes in your backpack.
vulture January 10th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 8 : 3 6 P M

I can't see a picture.
And frankly, a detonator in a m etal pipe with screwed endcaps? :eek:

Anyone else hear the word "pipebom b " ?
matjaz January 11th , 2004, 06:14 AM
The picture was waiting in som e e-purgatory for the m oderator to approve it, I guess... :) It's visible now.
It's a matter of quantities. 1ccm charge inside a 25ccm pipe isn't the same as a pipe filled with explosive. For adiabatic
e x p a n s i o n o f p r o d u c t i o n g a s s e s , 2 5 x i n c r e a s e i n v o l u m e means over 50x reduction in pressure. And the pipe walls are 3m m
stee l.
W ell, it's not theory a lone. The pipe is intact. No cracks, not even a slight increase in diam eter.
knowledgehungry January 11th , 2004, 10:03 AM

I u s e a n a m m unition tin filled with san d, it's heavy but no way in hell am I going to be injured by somethin g going off in that.
In fact I wouldnt be surprised if it would detona te and I not notice it.
Skean Dhu January 11th , 2 0 0 4 , 1 2 : 4 8 P M

w o u l d n ' t t h e s a n d b e t o o d e n s e a n d t h use transfer the shockwave very nicely potentially setting off other dets held inside? n ot
to m ention transfer it into you . I think you'd be better off using pum ice, and " Great-stuff" as NBK suggested. and then put a
b l o c k o f p o l y u r e t h a n e f o a m i n s i d e a n d carve Det sized slots into it to hold them
knowledgehungry January 12th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 8 : 2 8 P M

I h a v e s e t o f f m a n y c h a r g e s p u r p o s e f u l l y i n s i d e t h e s a n d b o x t h ing, bigger charges than a det. I know pum ice is most likely
better but sa nd m a k e s i t s o u n d p r o o f t o o .
pyr0_mike_4 January 29th , 2 0 0 4 , 1 1 : 5 1 P M

I've also noticed a whole lot of force dam pening abilities of sand. Try it sometim e, bury a det about 6 inches down in the sand.
it definitely wouldnt be the best m etho d , a s y o u w o u l d n e e d s o m ething the size of a coffee can for a single det, but it gets the
job done.
Ropik March 29th, 2004, 06:30 AM

In m a opinio n the best detonator case is tin from m a c h i n e g u n a m munition with polystyrene liner.
Cyclo_Knight March 30th, 2004, 01:43 AM

I use an old plastic briefcase 20" x 16" x 5" lined with p lywood a nd filled with 1/4" chunks of crushed pumice. I also rienforced
t h e s i d e f a c i n g m e ( f u ze side) and the top handle sidewith 3 m m a l u m i n u m s h e e t i n g t o d e f l e c t t h e s h o c k w a v e . I u s e d l i q u i d -
f o a m t o s e a l t h e p u m ice after I placed rods of different sizes to accom idate different sized dets.
It will carry 9 dets of any size, and will never transmit an acciden tal discharge to another d et. I have tried with AP dets up to
a b o u t n u m b e r 1 2 , a n d n e v e r h a d a s y m pathetic discharge of any other caps.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Human bipedal locomotion device
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xoo1246 August 29th, 2002, 04:38 PM

I found this, I have never seen anything like it.
<a href="http://www.springwalker.com/" target="_blank">http://www.springwalker.com/</a>
And/or patent Nr: 5,016,869
Fairly interesting, not related to explosives or weapons, or new, patented in 1991.
Hopefully someone might find it interesting.
Edit: Please move!, wrong section, when I posted this, only 4 sections were availible(don't ask me why, you are the administration :) ).
[ August 29, 2002, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

Anthony and NBK went over this in a topic a long time ago IIRC, the thread should still be kicking around somewhere.

The electric servo assistance is certainly. Won't be long before we have 8-10ft tall soldiers running round our cities at 30mph and leaping 8ft fences in single step!
Ctrl_C August 30th, 2002, 01:50 PM

Exoskeltons scare me. They remind me of mechwarriors. War is becoming ludicrously unfair. We can basically wage an entire war without the opposition even seeing a soldier.
Now, if a future in which mechwarriors exists comes about, you can basically have 1 guy controlling all the components of a fighter plane, ground army, navy even with one
joystick. It would take thousands of people to beat one of these things.

Anyone else here that "Terminator" theme tune..?
A-BOMB August 30th, 2002, 11:22 PM

I tell ya thats why we should nuke the middle east to get rid of that evil oil so we can get working on cold fusion so we can get on to making them mechwarrior kinda super
mega killing machines.
AmonDin September 9th, 2002, 10:37 PM

Feh, the only 80 foot walking death machines will be in MY armada driven by MY liegons of terror. Feel free to sign up with henchmen services.
War isn't meant to be fair, you take any advantage you can get. Don't worry about your revolution being spoiled or anything, a good guerilla resistance can still cause plenty o
trouble.
NoltaiR September 10th, 2002, 12:16 AM

And soon enough they might just start selling this superbots in little kits found at your neighborhood walmart :D 'great for your son's fifth birthday'!
frostfire September 20th, 2002, 01:42 AM

"cold fusion so we can get on to making them mechwarrior kinda super mega killing machines."
I assume you haven't got to/forgot college physics, the concept is a mistake made by some foolish person who among other things, violate 2nd law of thermodynamics that
entropy can never be less than positive figure (or hardly even zero)
don't get me wrong, I would love to see all the gundams become reality and fly all over the place
Eliteforum September 20th, 2002, 05:28 AM

I read in a extract from New Scientest, that the first blob of anti matter has been created!
"Mr Worf.. Engage!"
We could well be on our way with some warp power supplys soon!

This is news? They've made anti-matter years ago. But it's strictly a lab curiousity for the foreseeable future because it takes astronomical amounts of power to make a few
atoms worth of anti-matter.
My army of Mecha-Chickens will be powered by methane, conveniently fueled by my legions of chickens. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
A-BOMB September 20th, 2002, 10:31 AM

Actual NBK I just read in a old Scientific American that if all the particule excelerators in the world were smashing atoms constanly for a year they would produce about a weight
of anti-matter one quarter of the of the weight of the atoms/particules that were smashed. It was in the one about what types of engines and rockets would be needed to
travel in space.
And frost I know that it was just a joke, I better get back to my laser driven helium fusion experiment. Oh crap a Ressoniance Cascade has happened, now we have to deal
with more of those damn Zen aliens again, wheres gordon freeman when you need him.
[ September 20, 2002, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: A-BOMB ]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Dish Network
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3rd Strike August 30th, 2002, 03:35 PM

is it possible...instead of useing smart cards and thoes type of things, to plug the phoneline from the back of a dish reciever
to the back of your computer and download a program to verify channel orders and stuff so the dish reciever thinks its paid
for?

"3rd strike" - How fitting, beca use you're outta here!
Let's see... Newbie making a new topic, hasn't read the rules, thread is n ot relevant to theforum. You guys just don't get it do
you?
Byebyeyar :)
nbk2000 August 30th, 2002, 04:25 PM

I've worked for dish network. It wouldn 't work. The activation is two parts. O n e p a r t c o m e s t h r o u g h t h e p h o n e ( o n l y A F T E R y o u
talk with an activator on the phone), then down loaded via a TripleDES encrypted sideband data channel over the satellite.
The smartcard HAS to be inserted and matched to the receiver for it to work.
BTW , re-read the rules and learn abou t what's a 1 strike offense here...NEWBIES PO STING NEW TO PIC S! :m a d :

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Improvised press
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xoo1246 September 1st, 2002, 12:37 PM

A press constructed from the tool used to squirt silicon sealants and such(you know what I mean).
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Press01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Press01.jpg</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Press02.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Press02.jpg</a>
Used in combination with a thick rug(with a hole in it placed on top of the box) to reduce sound and fragmentation if things go bad when pressing caps.
I constructed it several weeks ago and this far I have only used it once. It's simple to make and can be constructed cheaply, no need for hydralic presses for simple pressing
aplications.
Comments, ideas?
How do you press caps? With a pensil hoping the God of AP are with you this day too? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Eliteforum September 1st, 2002, 12:58 PM

I had this same idea many months ago, but thought nothing more of it, as you have to physically remove the pressing "ram" and while removing this, it will add friction. And
that's not something you want when your pressing AP caps.
[ September 01, 2002, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Eliteforum ]
nbk2000 September 1st, 2002, 03:21 PM

No reason why you couldn't have a cord attached to the ram so you can pull it out remotely.
stanfield September 1st, 2002, 04:27 PM

let's start by throwing away your AP, this is a shitty explosive ! DDNP or Lead Azide haven't many chance to detonate when pressed in a cap...
kingspaz September 1st, 2002, 06:31 PM

ok, heres my detpress
it needs a slight modification to the handle to avoid possible hand injury and a blast shield screwing to the handle end then it is done!....also i designed it so it can be
constucted without metal working tools. the tools i used were a hammer, wood block and drill. and a few simple tools aswell.
copy and paste the link please.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/detpress.JPG" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/detpress.JPG</a>
[ September 01, 2002, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
Eliteforum September 1st, 2002, 07:10 PM

NBK, you couldn't pull it out with a string without some sort of pully system, as it have to pulled upwards. Not to the side.
NERV September 1st, 2002, 11:17 PM

Currently I press my caps by hand (praying to the explosive gods that they will have mercy). I have been drawing up different ideas for cap presses but none have been
reliable for me. I think I am going to try and make a press like yours xoo since I have a couple of caulking guns at hand.
[ September 01, 2002, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: NERV ]
xoo1246 September 2nd, 2002, 01:48 PM

Stanfield, I'm not using AP, actually I have never made it. It was aimed at people who use AP and don't use a press. Usually use HMTD since I'm sitting on a nice amout of
methamine. But that will eventually change since I have started studdying to a chemical engineer. Will read mathemathics to x-mas, and after that the chemistry courses will
start.
Anyway the press is ok if you compare it's price to a 250$ hydralic press. And the problem with removing the piston that has pushed the primary into the cap will be thesame
with a hydralic press.
THErAPIST September 2nd, 2002, 02:23 PM

I use HMTD and have never had a problem with pressing it. i wear a huge paintball mask. i use plastic drinking straw for the case with a piece of masking tape on the end to
close it. i hold it with a pair of pliers, i dump a small amount of HMTD in, i press it with either a wooden rod or my glass stirring rod. then i dump in a little more and press
again. i do that untill i have about 2 grams in the straw. then i wrap some masking tape around a piece of fuse so that the tape fits the straw kinda snug. push the taped fuse
in, put the cap in whatever, light the fuse and stand back. my stirring rods are 8 inches long and the wooden rod that i use is 12 inches long. if a cap was to detonate my rod
would be destroyed but my hands and face would be fine. so personally i find no need for a press. ill probably still make one one day when i get bored though.
Eliteforum September 2nd, 2002, 05:16 PM

Pressing it with a glass stiring rod isn't my idea of safe! Use another thinner straw with the end taped or something, that way if it does go off, you'll only hard shards of plastic,
not spears of glass in your hands.

no... glass isnt all that safe. i usually use the wooden rod, (i had to resort to usin the glass the other day when i misplaced my wooden rod) and i forgot to point out that i wear
leather gloves.
Rat Bastard September 2nd, 2002, 07:11 PM

When I press my CTAP into a straw, I just use a q-tip. The soft eges don't create any scraping on the walls or anything.
For bigger cases I use a dowel with coton glued on the rounded tip of the dowel. Same principle.

yea. i pressed my hmtd one time with a q-tip. when i was done I decided to go outside with it and a lighter. "hey lets see how big of a fireball this will ma... BANG. my q-tip
had a plastic middle between the little cotton ends which was a big tube. i didnt realize it till the q-tip detonated but the plastic tube had filled about a fifth of the way up with
hmtd as i was pressing. i wasnt too stupid about burnin the q-tip though. i held it with a pair of 6 inch long tweezers that i got from the school chem lab and i lit it with ona
those long grille lighters, so i didnt get hurt.
Ctrl_C September 3rd, 2002, 12:30 AM

My dets?...just funnel some AP/HMTD/whatever into a 30-06 brass, filled to top, tap brass on a table gently, about an inch from the table each time, a dozen times (come on
it's not THAT sensitive). Fill back up to top, repeat until 1cm from top. Insert fuse/nichrome pushing it into AP/HMTD/whatever. Clean chosen explosive from mouth of brass,
crimp around fuse with pliars. Steel shells crimp better than brass because brass is so soft. Works EVERY time.
Good press you have going there. I bet a rig for a line to disengange it wouldn't be hard.
Rat Bastard September 3rd, 2002, 12:54 AM

C, I thought steel and brass reacted with HMTD, hmm....mabey im wrong. p.s: check your email?
This test was made from pressed (with a q tip) HMTD in a plastic tube:
<a href="http://members.shaw.ca/raydawg/pics/hcap1.jpg" target="_blank">http://members.shaw.ca/raydawg/pics/hcap1.jpg</a>
I am starting to favor HMTD more than CTAP.
xoo1246 September 3rd, 2002, 01:50 AM

HMTD and metals are not suitable, especially not copper(as i brass), but this has been discussed before. There has been accidents. So I wouldn't use it, but it's up to each and
everyone to make their own jugements. Personally I use thin plastic pipes that can be found at electricians. Used to install electrical cables.
THErAPIST September 3rd, 2002, 08:39 PM

i wish i had a digital camera. i have an altoids mint can that got shredded when i put a 1 gram cap (green plastic straw pressed with wooden dowel) into it. i put ahole in the
side of the can for the fuse to pass thrue. i put the cap in, threaded the fuse thrue the hole, closed the can, put it in the mail box, lit the fuse and ran to the side of my house
so that i could hide behind the brick wall. i heard a bang. wasnt all that loud but it was slightly louder than a regular ole everyday factory made firecracker. i went and looked
at the can. there was a huge ass dent in the top of my mailbox where the top of the altoids can popped off and dented the top. i found pieces of the altoids can outside the
mailbox layin on the road. i went and looked in the mailbox. theres a huge ass dent in the bottom of it (it broke the inch thick pine board that the mailbox is mounted on which
is pounted to the wooden post) and there was a flatened out and extremely jagged altoid can bottom with a huge dent in it also. that was the first thing i ever did with HMTD.
when i can get a cam ill take pics and put em up.
spydamonkee September 23rd, 2002, 06:29 PM

i was thinking of making me a press outa of a G-Clamp supported in some sort of blast box with a hinged extention handle kinda like what pushed the old steam train wheels
around only smaller, this way you could wind down the clamp to press the det then wind it back up when done and remove pressed det.
but i dont see the point it only take me 2 minutes to make each det the way i do it, similer to Ctrl_C's method except i use blu-tack to hold the wire inplace and i dont crimp it
as i dont think it makes much difference my charges still go off.
oh and THErAPIST... nice site u have ACB, links to totse and queerpier but not here? :rolleyes:
[ September 23, 2002, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: spydamonkee ]
kingspaz September 24th, 2002, 05:23 PM

THErAPIST has links to those shit holes because thats where he comes from originally. the only reason he is tolerated is because he obeys our rules and actually posts a little
useful information.
andreas September 25th, 2002, 07:03 AM

I use a hobby drill press in wich you normally install a hand drill.
Instead I installed a roud shaft with a flat surface.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Does anyone has ideas on homing beacon??
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View Full Version : Does anyone has ideas on homing beacon??
ahmondjai September 3rd, 2002, 07:49 PM

I want to put it in my friend's car and track him down. :confused:
probity September 3rd, 2002, 07:54 PM

<a href="http://www .google.com" target="_blank"> http://www .google.com</a>
PYRO500 September 3rd, 2002, 08:19 PM

I believe this is a relevant topic, (it could be applied to pig's cars or armored cars etc.) the answer is not as simple as you w ould think. to track a moving vehicle that means you
need a beacon transmitter to begin w ith. now the beacon transmitter can be easily powered from his bcar batery but needs some kind of properly tuned antenna unless you
want a pathetic range. There are company's that sell beacon transmitters in the 400 Mhz range witch is w hat I would recomend. although sometimes in hilly areas and areas
with lots of buildings the signal gets lost or weak this will give you the best power for your money, look for ATV beacons.
Now that you have your beacon transmitter you are going to need a way to hone in on it. There are two main w ays of doing this. One is to use a direction fining antenna witch
is simply a yagi element antenna (look that up on google) that has very pow erful gain in one direction, ( dosen't have to be a yagi but they get the best performance at VHF)
Another option is to get a doppler shift direction tracking system, what this is is a device that has 4 vertically polarized dipole antennas that are mounted on the four corners of
your roof, these antennas are hooked up to a special direction finding device witch calulates doppler shifting of radiowaves into effect and uses the 4 antennas as refrence
points.
Both systems can be fairly expensive for fun purposes but for serious use I'd recomend a doppler shift system. With 400 MHz atv your antennas could easily look like small cell
phone antennas.
A good doppler shift system could cost you anywhere from 180-500$ depending on accuracy and reliability and w ether it requires a scanner in adition to the antenna. A good
high gain yagi antenna shouldn't cost more than 50 bucks but will require a scanner to listen in on the beacon. The beacon it self will run you anywhere from 80-150$ depending
on the range you w ant and how you get it.
[ September 03, 2002, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]

Nowdays there are services called "friendfinder". Basicly it uses mobile phone stations to track a mobile phone with an accuracy of a few hundred meters. You can see the
location from you laptop. This could be used if you wish to track someone at a large distance, and then use a another transmitter to close in the hundred meters you lack.
rikkitikkitavi September 4th, 2002, 05:06 PM

but it doesnt w ork every w here and probably not so many companies provide it.
first idea coming into mind is a radio transmitter , but for that to work you need atleast tw o tracking stations to make an accurate triangulation.
if well wersed in electronics, connecting a cell phone with a GPS module could work. Additional microcompuing is neccessary of course.
Just ring it up and ask where it is! Problem is that unless you can buy a GPS module and GSM module(or substitute it with a small phone with data cable) it will be very bulky.
Dont know if the GPS can recive the signal hidden in the car somewhere though.
GSM phones usually needs an external antenna too.
Most comercial tracking systems for taxis, ambulances e t c works this w ay, since it is very accurate (within meters for the GPS).
cheap and reliable technology.
/rickard

You do not need to triangulate all you need is a method of transprotation that you can ride around w ith your "tracker" and hone in on the signal by traveling in the direction your
direction finding equipment is pointing.
ahmondjai September 5th, 2002, 08:05 PM

hum.....so, is there anything like when u come closer, a beeping sound or something like that w ill beep more frequently, something similar like the one in alien? when they tried
to find the little gal? and most important, are there some cheap plans??

yeah, you'll find them on the same site w ith the "plans" to make the C4 seen on Macgyver from common kitchen cleaning products!

No with this setup you do not get a faster and faster signal as you get close, you get a broader angle in witch the high gain antenna receves the signal. that aliens thing is
holywood bullshit, the only way to get somethng like that would require alot of expensive electronics and wouldn't work to well especially at far ranges.
As for plans, I don't think your going to be able to build any direction finding high gain antenna that's compareable to a professional one, and it has to be matched to the
frequency your using as well.
As for the recever, you really need the reception of a good super hetrodyne recever that has a BNC jack for hooking up your antenna, a good ,odern scanner (digital tuning not
some analog piece of crap!)
Your transmitter shoud be VHF or UHF and should be anyw here from 500 mw to 3 w atts depending on the range you need. The transmitter is one of the most important parts
and needs to give out a reliable signal that is easily discriminated from radio noise.
ahmondjai September 5th, 2002, 11:51 PM

I have a idea, but it is going to w ork, don't know .
If I can hook something on to his car, with somekind of signal transmitting device so that i will know he's around me when i pass that area, and i m thinking something which
will send out any signal for my scanner to pick up(like when i go near it, maybe it will send some white noise or anything, then, i can use my uhf scanner's signal strength meter
to know where about it's from) , so, how 's that? you guys think it's going to work???
DeAd September 6th, 2002, 12:58 PM

relating to that we play a game here with CB's. Its called foxhunt.Everyone has 23 or 40 channel cbs preferably with Rx signal strenth guage and rf gain dial - youll get best
tracking ability with a 102 inch stainless steel whip ateanna mounted on the courner of your car. someone(the fox) w ill drive off anywhere in the city and sit and hide. every
four minutes the fox w ill make a two minut Tx(our rules)usually some mundane events of the w eek.
the hunters wait for the Tx and then drive in small circles watching
the signal meater needle, when the opposite corner from the attena is pointed in the same direction as the fox you get a higher reading its easy to do w ith some pratice.
Cb's are cheep now cause of cell phones. so get the smallest one you can find radioshack has one 1 in by 2in by 4 in 29 $ also get the adaptor to use the auto's existing attena
with the CB 19 $ . that would be your tracking transmitter. you could use different channels for different targets.
anyone hear of that game

I assume this is what you are looking for:
<a href="http://www .unikteknik.com/shop/shopdata/common_productimages/REDKNOWSRH10.gif" target="_blank"> http://www .unikteknik.com/shop/shopdata/
common_productimages/REDKNOWSRH10.gif</a>
You connect it to a mobile phone and GPS unit.
Dial it, it regonize your number, hang up and sends you the coordinates. Or it can be set to send you the position as it moves.
It costs around 300$

krysthegreek February 20th, 2008, 01:35 AM
What you might be looking for is something along the lines of an ELT (Emergency Locater Transmitter). It's a fairly small radio transmitter that transmits a warbling tone on a
specific frequency only, typically used for crash site location for Search And Rescue teams. 121.5mHz for civilian aircraft, 243mHz for military aircraft, 121.6mHz [I]w as[I] the
frequency for boats, and 121.775 is used for training purposes. Many of these are being phased out by February of 2009 (in the US), and you should be able to find some of the
older versions for fairly cheap ($200-35 USD). As far as detection equipment goes, L-Tronic makes some good equipment, and there are several plans to make your ow n (I
apologize, I do not have any of these on hand, I w ill try to find some.), for less than $300 USD.
The largest downside of this is that the signal very easily reflects off of metallic, or even stone, concrete, etc., surfaces, making it difficult to track someone in an urban
environment (though with practice it can still be done). Another downside is that with such a simplistic system, there is required a fair amount of practice/familiarity with the
equipment and process; one cannot simply pick up the gear and be good at DF (direction-finding). The upside is that the equipment has been out there and tested for years,
and should soon become even more available.
Zait February 23rd, 2008, 12:54 AM

In the 7+ years that this thread has been dead I w ould hazard to guess that the OP probably either tracked dow n the friend or gave up due to the lack of technology.
While your idea is not bad it has the draw back of being somewhat expensive (along with all the other downsides you listed). It's probably far cheaper and easier to buy a GPS
enabled cell phone, charge it (and maybe even add a slave battery or two) and use that to track someones vehicle.
dinkydexy February 26th, 2008, 05:33 PM

Even cheaper still would be to just find another girlfriend and get over it.
mike-hunt March 2nd, 2008, 06:50 AM

There are child tracking services that w ork by mobile phone . You gust log onto a web site and view a map similar to a G.P.S and it show s the mobiles location. here is a UK
Web site
http://ww w.childlocate.co.uk/
I have seen a similar one for Australia and remember thinking it w ould be a useful girlfriend tracker.
DyD March 9th, 2008, 06:32 PM

If you're looking for beacons - it may be best to hackjob a DIY beacon on an oft unused frequency. A GPS receiver could be attached to an Atmel micro-controller, which could in
turn be attached to an RF modem. JFGI - there are a number of similar projects out there. If you're looking for something prebuilt, sparkfun.com sells a number of potentially
useful GPS modules, including a complete tracking kit. Sparkfun's device is a GPS receiver attached to a GSM transmitter. They also offer a module that logs to text files on an
SD chip. If you are able to pickup the device from the mark's vehicle, that may be an optimal approach.
Mike123 March 9th, 2008, 07:59 PM

There is a schematic for a tracking beacon in More Electronic Gadgets For The Evil Genius if your into putting one together from scratch. This book can be found on any of the
bittorrent sites. I put it together on a breadboard and it w orked, although I never tested it over long distances.
Bugger March 10th, 2008, 07:19 AM

What w ould be the best radio locator beacon, if any, (together with a portable radio receiver tuned to its frequency), to put in a vehicle (including a motorcycle as w ell as a car)
so as to enable it to be traced and recovered from the thief (with the aid of either the Pigs or private security "heavies") in the event of its being stolen? I had a motorcycle
stolen two years ago, and although I have evidence strongly suggesting that a certain person stole it, the evidence it not strong enough for the Pigs to "bust" him and search his
premises. The frequency band of the radio beacon, which would have to be turned on w hile the vehicle is left unguarded and not securely locked away, would have to be one
that "carries" over a reasonably large distance (by diffraction and ionospheric reflection), because of the distance that a stolen vehicle might be driven away, so it would
probably have to be in the short-w ave region, either in the amateur and marine short-w ave band of about 2 to 8 Mhz or the citizens' band of about 26 Mhz. Most short-wave
radios can pick up these frequencies. Those frequencies for emergency locator beacons for aircraft and boats, in the VHF frequency range of about 120 to 400 Mhz (which
overlaps w ith the FM and TV bands), mentioned above, would be traceable only over a few miles on the ground, or over longer distances only by search-and-rescue aircraft
flying above radio-opaque obstacles, by line-of-sight.

I still think for expediencies sake a throwaway cell phone with GPS tracker ability is a good bet. Your range on this is nationwide, more or less. The only big problem is limited
battery life. Unless you can change the battery every few days, if you need a tracker to last longer, you will need to modify the power system. You could add a larger battery
pack, but now you make it harder to disguise your handywork.
There are also dog tracking collars that use cell phne technology with GPS tracking. These presumably have much longer battery lives.
The best thing about GPS tracking is that you can get a "world line" of w here the tracker has been than can be overlaid onto a map. You can see where the subject has been,
what routes traveled, where the subject lingered... If it's an unruly w oman you are after, it helps to know w here she has been over time, not where she is at a specific moment.
plutobound March 10th, 2008, 09:54 AM

There are small trackers that use a combination of GPS and Cell Phone technology to enable them to work indoors as w ell as outside. Gives realtime tracking capability. If you
don't need realtime, but just want to know w here someone/thing has been, GPS data loggers are much cheaper and readily available.
http://ww w.brickhousesecurity.com/small-covert-gps-tracker.html

I'd opt for an infinity transmitter affair. Take a cheap cellphone, add a hands-free and set to auto-answer, then chop off the earbud so it is silent alw ays. Charge that, add a
SIM, then activate the e.g. Childtracker system fully, and then place it w here you want it.
With the GPRS tracking data you will know where and when it goes (on grid, of course) and can also at any time simply place a call to it to listen in on what's happening.
The only issue would be the battery life, but that should be around 5 to 12 days, depending on how you use it. Far better than a regular RF bug, that's for sure.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Ball milling with a stone
tumbler.
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Polverone September 4th, 2002, 06:07 PM

I have a small rock tumbler and an improvised ball mill made from an electric ice cream maker. The rock tumbler actually
already has indentations/ridges on the inside to make things get carried up and drop, so I never had the problem you've
encountered. The milling media you use makes a world of difference. I use soft lead balls for making BP, and they do an
excellent job of reducing materials to fine powder, even in a container without ridges. I use marbles for milling stuff that I want
powdered but not contaminated with lead. The marbles take probably 4-5 times as long as the lead balls to accomplish similar
grinding tasks. I would like to try brass or hardened lead balls but I haven't been able to find any, and they'd probably still
contaminate the chemicals somewhat.
THErAPIST September 4th, 2002, 07:03 PM

i came across my old rock tumbler in the shed th eother day. i was gonna throw it away but i figured i might use it again (for
its real purpose) some day so i kept it. the thought of turning it into a ball mill came across my mind for about 3 seconds and
then i figured that it wouldnt work so i mentally killed that idea. maybe i shall go have another look at it and see what i can
come up with. good idea
EP September 4th, 2002, 09:19 PM

I've been looking into rock tumblers recently also. I seem to remember hearing that hexagonal chambers are becoming more
common now, but I think cylindrical would still be fine.
United Nuclear sells Lortone rock tumblers as ball mills here:
<a href="http://www.unitednuclear.com/mills.htm" target="_blank">http://www.unitednuclear.com/mills.htm</a>
They also sell hardend lead balls for milling, which will probably help a lot for good milling. The prices on the rock tumblers/
ball mills and UN suck, so looking at the Lortone website I found them listed much cheaper:
<a href="http://www.lortone.com/tumblers.html" target="_blank">http://www.lortone.com/tumblers.html</a>
I also saw some decent prices on eBay (search "rock tumbler" or "lortone")
I'm thinking I'll just buy one of these (probably the model 45C) because I'm not all that good at making these kinds of
things. Has anybody used this brand or could anybody ask on rec.pyrotechnics? (I still haven't figured out how to post there
:rolleyes: )
edit: spelling
[ September 20, 2002, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: EP ]

I have been thinking about making one of these lately to reduce some things to powder (not pyrotechnic materials). I wonder
if I could employ a window fan to do the job? I have an older one that is starting to act up and I fancy that I can adjust the
high/medium/low knob to slow it down a bit. I did an internet search for improvised rock tumblers and all I came up with were
a few giant truck tire sized ones, all the rest wanted money for their plans.
I got a new Small Parts Company catalog a while ago and they sell a varity of metal balls for not too much. Are there sources
out there of steel balls? I used to have a bunch in my marble collection when I was young, but I have no idea where they
came from. I think $7 is a bit steep for 25 half inchers, but what can I do?
I have some instructions for an improvised eluter to seperate different grades of grit for rock tumblers if anyone is interested.
xoo1246 September 5th, 2002, 05:38 AM

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Fl4PP4W0k September 5th, 2002, 09:06 AM

This may seem pretty obvious... but a great source for large (3\4"+) soft lead balls are off-shore fishing tackle stores. These
are great when combined with a handful of half inch sinkers.
For steel balls, you may be able to find some muzzle loader ammo? I know the larger balls are .58 and .62, and I've seen
steel ones around on some website. Ill check.
(I live in Australia, where muzzleloaders are... for some fucked up reason, illegal. I cant really picture someone going on a
murderous rampage with a musket... but hey :D
Therefore... I havent actually seen large calibre steel ball in person... but on hunting sites etc...)
l8r

Remove

Ahh, yes, I have seen large caliber brass balls at Wal Mart sold in packs of 9 or so.

Remove

Remove
CyclonitePyro September 20th, 2002, 09:27 PM

I use a Lortone 3A rock tumbler,l it has a rubber barrel. I use 1/2" steel ball bearings. I've milled many materials, black
powder, naphthalene, KClO4, and things I can't remember, without any problems, the fineshed product is always very fine.
xyz September 27th, 2002, 10:16 PM

A bit off topic but I don't really want to start a new one.
I have been trying to make a ball mill for a while, I am using a large 240v motor from a vacuum cleaner and it spins
extremely fast, all atempts at using a belt to gear down the motor have failed because the belts tend to come off or snap. I
had the idea that I could attach the milling jar directly to the motor shaft (normally you could'nt do this because it would spin
way too fast) and then use a light dimmer switch to turn down the power untill the jar turned at 150rpm or so.
Also, I have been thinking about using lead sinkers for media but they have a hole through the middle and I think that the
hole would get packed with whatever you were milling and this could have bad consequences if you milled something else
without cleaning them thoroughly first. Any suggestions on fixing this?
None September 27th, 2002, 10:48 PM

You could just fill them with solder or rinse them in water after every use.
Mick September 28th, 2002, 01:40 AM

just get a pair of pliers and "moosh"(technical term) the holes over.
its only led, its soft as shit.
i can't see why you couldn't use a dimmer switch to turn down the motor. i still don't think you'll get it to spin slow enough, but
with a dimmer/belt combo it would work.
BrAiNFeVeR September 28th, 2002, 09:40 AM

A simpe dimmer won't work, because it only has a resistor in that, and the rpm of an alternating current motor depends on the
frequency of that current.
The only thing it will do is lower the power of the motor (wich may slow it down) but it won't do this very good.
I suggest you try to find a DC motor (like from a battery operated drill), they have motors that are easily adapted to suit your
needs ...
Zach September 28th, 2002, 05:22 PM

hi folks, ive been away for a while due to things hitting the fan.
anyway, does anyone have an idea how lead balls are "hardened"?
I am lucky to have access ball end mills ( not ball mills. ball end mills are milling cutters (sort of like a drillbit) that are
rounded on the end to create a perfect half-sphere hole) and a milling machine, so i have fabricated several ball molds. I
have acheived seemingly good success with mixing molten lead and zinc to be poured, lending a harder ball. Zinc is, however,
fairly reactive, and I'm not sure i want to mix zinc with chemicals/drugs ect. ect. ect.
Possibly a denser lead ball can be obtained by running them alone in a steel milling container... or glass, if one can avoid
breaking it.
Marvin September 28th, 2002, 10:11 PM

BrAiNFeVeR is very neerly right about the dimmers. The variable resistor controls a triac circuit, the setting on the resistor
controls the firing delay at each point in the AC waveform. The result is an AC waveform with the front cut off and its only
capable of driving resistive loads. Try driving an inductive load and it wont work, apart from burning it out. Power regulators
and DC motors dont work well either, by the time youve reduced the speed to what you want the motor has bugger all torque.
The only thing that seems to work half decently in this vane is induction motors (the kind with a only single winding around a
metal horseshoe and a metal rotor, being regulated with a variac, which is a variable transformer.
Try buying a small box of mechanno, useful for small cog driven problems. Alternativly 2 wheels made of 3 disks of wood with
the middle smaller makes a pully the belt/band cant come off.
Lead can be hardened by adding antimony to it.
My ball mill is an unmodified tumbler half full (around 100, and its small) of marbles. If its overfull of powder it wont grind
well, if the powder is damp it sticks to the side and I get the same problem. Takes about 24hours to turn a ground mixture
into a very fine powder. I havnt been using it long, I'll run some tests to find out how fine it will go. Speaking of which, anyone
know a cheep place to order sieves for seperating grades of powder? The places Ive found so far are extortionate.

I used lead as-is and didn't have problems with the hardness of the media, but I guess if you're milling metals then it might.
If you want to harden your media with antimony, but can't get it, you can cast your media from melted down airgun pellets.
They contain varying amounts of antimony. I suspect that bullets will be the same, and you'll need fewer.
Tip: for motor drive, go to a big chainstore DIY/hardware place and pick up their special offer cordless drill - usally 9.6 or 12v
for about 10. The motor will come out as a unit attached to a reduction gearbox and the chuck. Use the chuck to drive the
spinder of the driven roller that turns your milling jar. Cheap cordless drills usually run about 600rpm, so to get a jar speed of
150rpm, make the driven roller one quarter the circumference of your milling jar.
The motor doesn't draw much power and will run indefinitely without overheating, although I've never driven a real heavy jar
with one, so this might not always be true, especially if your bearings aren't up to much.
The cheapest way to supply the motor with DC is a car battery charger. Don't worry about using a 12v charger if your drill was
only 9.6v - they all use the same motor anyway for cheap drills.
Since I like using everything for something, use the nicd battery pack from the drill for your electric blasting machine, and the
charger to recharge it.
Note, you could use the speed controller in the drill (if it has one!) to vary the motor and this jar speed, but I don't know how
well they'd do in continuous duty as they're usually damn cheap and the first thing to go up in smoke if you use the drill hard.

<a href="http://www.mcmaster.com" target="_blank">www.mcmaster.com</a> should have a large variety of milling balls.
That Small Parts Incorporated catalog had a lot of nice things in it, but was very expensive. I would think that some 1/2" or 5/
8" tungsten carbide balls would work very well.
EDIT:
Tungsten carbide is rather expensive. :( (well duh, right?) However 1/2" brass balls are $14.12 for 25. Much cheaper than the
TC ones at $10.08 each. 8-O
EDIT 2:
Doing some additional checking they also have stainless steel balls. 316 or 440C would probably be the best ones to get and
they are $8.95 for 10 316 SS and $12.27 for 25 440C, both 1/2".
[ September 29, 2002, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: EventHorizon ]
Positive Electron October 3rd, 2002, 10:53 PM

you guys ever hit a hammer against a nail kinda crooked? notice all those sparks flying off of it? now think about what a
hammer and anils are made of, steel. steel sparks, and milling with steel is not a good idea. i'm not sure about brass, but I
think it my spark too. try using hardened antimony lead, no sparks and as hard as steel :)
much safer when milling black powder too :)

Well you have a point, you can be over zealous with safety.
If media in a mill struck as hard as is required to strike a nail with a hammer and produce sparks, BP wouldn't take 6-12 hours
to produce...
Basically, everything except steel/iron is considered safe. But I'd hazzard a guesstimate that it's be more specific to say all
non-ferrous metals?
Anyway, lead is considered safe, but lead on steel *does* spark.
Positive Electron October 4th, 2002, 04:20 PM

being overly safe when milling blackpowder is absolutely necissiary because even if your media only sparks 1:1000000 times,
that one time your going to end up with a bunch of steel balls flying everywhere.
edit: made a mistake
[ October 04, 2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Positive Electron ]
pyro225 October 5th, 2002, 04:06 PM

Antimony hardened lead was mentioned in this post as good material for grinding media. According to ball milling and
pyrotechnic guru "L.E.S." (see "The Best of AFN IV" pages 164-170, Ball Milling- Some Science in a Black Art), this material is
"heavy and hard enough for most pyrotechnic purposes, but high density ceramic media are easier to clean, and grind
somewhat finer." There is, however, a possibility that ceramic may spark, and it is definitely more expensive and inaccessible.
It is commonly recommended at the rec.pyro newsgroup to use melting wheel balance weights to cast lead grinding media.
They already have the necessary antimony added as a hardener - they just need to be "recycled". If you have a friend at a
tire store, have him collect a bucket of the used ones for you. Or offer to remove the used lead from the premise at no
charge, under the premise of making fishing weights or muzzle-loader balls. According to a chart for media charging rates in
the above mentioned article, you will need 29 lbs of lead balls per gallon to optimally charge your milling jar. With a specific
gravity of 11.35, that's not really that many wheel weights. I have successfully used a Lortone rock tumbler for small 2-4 oz
batches of pyrotechnic compositions. I used .50 caliber NON hardened lead balls and it seemed to work, though it took quite a
few hours. There was some evidence of lead "contaminating" some of my comps, probably due to lack of hardener. I think
one of the disadvantages of a rock tumbler is the rubber jar(at least in my case) - not hard enough of a surface to pummel
your material well. I will soon replace it with a 3-4" PVC jar (which will fit nicely on Lortone's roller assembly) and cast some 1/
2-3/4" hardened lead balls for media. This will increase my batch capacity and improve my efficiency. I have only a small bit
of experience with ball milling, and I've gleaned all of what I know from the above article. There is also a 66 page book by the
same author which covers in greater detail all aspects of ball milling, including building your own mill. This book is generally
regarded as THE manual on ball milling for amateur pyrotechnics. Hope this helps.

Positive Electron, I presume that you run your mill in a hard rubber jar, with platinum media, FULLY grounded, and anti-static
treated? With explosion proof rated motor, electrics, bearings, gearing, RCD protection, in a specially constructed strong
walled, weak roofed building, with multiples layers of blast walls surrounded, with nothing but open land in a 10 mile radius
and full remote manipulation of the mill?
Whilst I'm not saying you should ensure your safety, there will *always* be some chance of you being inured/killed, so it's a
compromise between the extent of your precautions and practicality.
Pyro225 is that book you mentioned "Ball Milling Theory and Practice for the Amateur Pyrotechnician" by Lloyd Sponenburgh?
pyro225 October 6th, 2002, 11:54 PM

Anthony wrote: "Pyro225 is that book you mentioned "Ball Milling Theory and Practice for the Amateur Pyrotechnician" by Lloyd
Sponenburgh?"
Yes sir, that would be "The One". If you're looking for it, it's available from several of the online/mail order pyrotechnics
suppliers. I have only the 6 page article in "The Best of AFN III", which is I believe excerpted from the book.
EDIT: Sorry to be vague about the author and book in my original post. I wasn't sure how the author would view the subject
matter with which this forum deals. Now that I think about it, his book is a primer on ball milling, so the application of his
techniques is not really his issue.
[ October 06, 2002, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: pyro225 ]
kingspaz October 7th, 2002, 06:41 PM

pyro225, whether he cares or not whats the chance hes actually here? and if he is here hes here for the same reason as us
and so wouldn't give a dam :)
i think that book might be a good idea for the ftp if anyone has the full version.
webmaster October 11th, 2002, 05:28 PM

You can use a blender. You can get steel balls from slingshot ammo. Also if you are looking for plans on making a home mill
here is a good site to look at <a href="http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/indexEN.html" target="_blank">http://huizen.dds.nl/
~wfvisser/indexEN.html</a>
Tuatara September 25th, 2003, 07:13 PM

I've found a good option for a milling jar for a homemade ball mill - the bottle of a 2 litre garden pressure sprayer! I found
this at a discount plasticware shop (NZer's will know about 'Payless Plastics) for NZ$10. Its made of 5mm thick HDPE, has
parallel sides, rounded ends, 50mm neck (easily plugged with a rubber or cork bung), and is about 12cm diameter . I put in 3
lifting bars made of 10mm wooden dowel, by simply drilling holes each end of the bottle and inserting the dowels.
Pressure sprayers also come in 5 and 6 litre versions, if you want a bigger jar.
The only downside is that it is virtually impossible to glue anything to HDPE, should you need to.
I ran the mill for the first time yesterday - turned inch size chunks of charcoal into fine dust in about 3hours. Milling media:
6kg of 50g lead balls, made the day before (that only took 2 hours) using a fishing sinker mold.
Mick September 27th, 2003, 09:33 AM

the ball mill i made/used a while back, mainly for grinding up AN, was an old clothes dryer.(tumble dryer?..we call it a clothes
dryer in OZ, dunno about everyone else tho)
best idea EVER as far as i'm concerned.

i can mill up 10kgs of AN(could prolly do 15kg if i wanted..could do even more if i extended the drum slightly) in around 5
hours.
the media i use is a 10kg roll of lead roof flashing(kind of like a rolling pin), plus a handful of lead balls, marbles, sometimes
i'll throw some brass tap fittings in as well to "spice it up a bit"(altho, i notice absolutely no difference in the final product)
i had to convert the drive train of the dryer to use a chain rather then a belt because of the weight - with the belt it wouldn't
spin the drum when you turned it on, and it would periodicaly stop, burning out the belt. i added some extra support rollers to
the outside of the drum cause the dryer is only designed for 5kg max - not 30kg. i also had to plug up the "air holes" in the
back wall of the drum too using a welder and some thin sheet metal.
its also good for mixing up ANFO too. i just put the FO in a small spray bottle and as the AN goes round and round i spray it.
something i have been thinking about is milling up some KNO3 for some rocket fuel, but due to my hiatus for the past year
i've forgoten just about everything i used to know(which wasn't much mind you)
whats the danger with milling KNO3..i'm sure there was somekind of static danger or something?(or maybe its AN that has the
static danger, and KNO3 is safe...hmm)
Sparky September 27th, 2003, 11:17 AM

If you're milling potassium nitrate by itself then you have nothing to worry about.
My friend's ball mill was made for free from an old duct fan. These are the fans used in ventilation for big buildings. They
come with:
A big steel drive bar

2 bearings. These are what I think what people call bushings. Basically brass tubes that the steel rod fits into, then put grease
in to lubricate.
A large and small pully, and a belt.
A 1/2 horse power motor and a mounting bracket to hold it with. The bigger ones have 3/4 horse motors.
The place next to his house used to throw these out every once in a while. Though I noticed they have stopped. Maybe they
weren't really throwing them out, just storing them next to the dumpster :rolleyes: . Anyways he got enough for his friends
too, and another one to make a star roller :cool: . All you need is bearing to hold the other side of the jar up. Castors like
those used on the bottom of chairs would work, though he uses a ball bearing from a bike wheel. Currently he uses a peanut
butter jar with marbles in it to mill with, though the motor could handle way more load. The problem with having a screw on lid
is that if you put the jar in backwards it opens up by itself :eek: .
Here is a diagram of the ball mill: http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/BallMill.gif
Gearing down the motor for a ball mill should be pretty easy as long as the drive bar and shank coming out of the motor are
standard diameter. Even medium sized hardware stores carry any pulleys and belts you would need.
jeffchem2000 September 27th, 2003, 04:32 PM

Lead can also be hardened with tin. solder is a tin lead alloy ranging from 40-60% tin.
When I was making my ball mill, For the ball bearings I was cutting a steel rod into chunks and my dad suggested that I build
a rod mill as opposed to a ball mill. Me being lazy thought it was quiker and easier so it was worth a try. The results from the
rod mill were really good I have used it to crush charcoal and also sulphur. The powders produced were really fine after only a
few hours (I didn't check how long)

Tin to harden lead? Surely only in very small proportions, not like solder, which is extremely soft!

Tin is used to lower the melting point of lead for use as solder.
Antimony is used for hardening lead for use in bullets.
Don't confuse the two.
Bert September 28th, 2003, 01:53 PM

Get an old washing machine motor. It's designed to start under heavy load and work continuously with the kind of load a drum
full of heavy milling media represents.
Stainless steel is a good choice for single component grinding. Try a 310 series.
Here's a cut and paste of one of the best milling posts I've seen. Myke, the guy who wrote this does this for a living-
NBK2000, this is the format it was in. Don't get too upset with me for leaving it as I got it.
================================================== ===
1. Mill ignitions, there are fifteen distinct causes:
A. Static electricity internal - charge build-up from load.

B. Static electricity external - mill drum, belt & rollers.
C. Piezoelectricity - charge build-up due to media impacts.
D. Pyrophoric media - impact sparks - spark sensitive load.
E. Triboelectricity - load friction - spark sensitive load.
F. Redox interaction - incompatible mill medium for a load.
G. Sensitising medium - a non-obvious ignition sensitivity.
H. Exothermic drying - safety solvent loss milling a metal.
I. Pyrophoric load - ignites on opening mill after milling.
J. Heating due to excess input power - bad mill parameters.
K. Friction ignition - bad load and/or bad mill parameters.
L. Impact ignition - inappropriate mill medium and/or load.
M. External source, mechanical - mill bearings overheating.
N. External source, electrical - motor brushes/switch arcs.
O. Physical failure of the operating mill causing ignition.
2. Materials for media/mill, there are twelve basic classes:

A. Ceramic: aluminium oxide, silicon dioxide, silicates and
other less common ingredients, like titanium dioxide. It
should be noted that flint is SiO2 - metamorphosed jelly
fish sediment found in carbonate deposits. Thus, it is a
fact that silica based ceramics produce striker sparks.
B. Glass: hard borosilicate, soft soda types and soft/heavy

lead crystal, etc. Since many glasses contain silica, it
is reasonable to expect striker sparks. Glass is a fluid
but ceramics are solid microcrystallines and/or sintered
amorphous materials with distinct properties, like being
piezoelectric or ferroelectric.
C. Copper and alloys: brasses (Zn), bronzes (Sn) and monels

(Ni). Alloys of copper sensitise a chlorate, perchlorate
and nitrate mix. Particularly dangerous is the formation
in-situ of copper amine compounds from milling compounds
that contain NH4, especially ammonium perchlorate.
D. Lead and its alloys, using: antimony, bismuth or calcium

as hardeners. The production of pyrophoric lead dust has
caused many mill explosions: typically while the load is
still warm and being emptied into fresh air. In commerce
of old, the load was allowed to cool then emptied into a
deep wood box filled with carbon dioxide gas.
E. Non-ferrous light: aluminium, and its non-copper alloys.
F. Ferrous: iron and its addition alloys, like a mild steel

or a tool steel (both easily produce sparks) do not have
a role in impact pyrotechnic milling. Non-impact milling
can use iron based wheels, as for a vertical heavy wheel
mill, like traditionally used for blackpowder, but it is
an economic/practical choice intended for remote running
and control with appropriate safe distances, etc.
G. Low-ferrous heavy: 310s24 Cr 25.0%, Ni 20.0%, C 0.12%.

317s12 Cr 18.0%, Ni 15.0%, Mo 3.5%.
316s16 Cr 17.8%, Ni 10.0%, Mo 2.8%.
These stainless steels are the preferred general milling

media for pyrotechnics. Typically used with rounded ends
in mixed lengths and diameters. They are non-sparking.
H. Special compounds: tungsten carbide, boron carbide, both

very hard; the former heavy, the latter light. Vitallium
high temperature cobalt/chrome alloy is used for milling
ceramic powders at high temperatures, very expensive.
I. Hard and soft rubbers: silicone and butadiene based used

for the incorporation of special explosive mixtures.
J. Plastics pure: Teflon, UHMW polyethylene, melamine, etc.

K. Plastics filled: as above + stainless steels, lead, etc.
L. Hardwoods, typically: ebony, ironbark, mallee root, etc.
3. Mill types, there are eleven basic types:
A. Horizontal tumbler - various types: plastic, glass, wood

and hard rubber. Used with various media. Most common in
small scale pyrotechnic milling operations. A metal mill
tumbler should never be used for pyrotechnic composition
milling - but they are used to prepare materials such as
charcoal. Steel tumblers find wide used in lapidary with
slurried polishing loads. A large conical type is useful
in milling common minerals and ores.
B. Horizontal heavy wheel - classical mill-stone types used

for milling cereal grains, etc. Usually a bed stone with
a rotating top stone, both typically granite - a central
feed hole with continuous peripheral delivery.
C. Horizontal heavy rollers - classical crushing mill for a

wide range of rocks and ores. Typically used as a coarse
sizing mill - with or without toothed rollers.
D. Vertical Stamp - classical rise and drop hammers working

in a sloped or horizontal trough with or without running
water as a milling aid. Used to mill ores, etc. Used for
making bright aluminium flake - with oxidation inhibitor
like paraffin wax.
E. Vertical heavy wheel - classical single or double wheels

running around in a pan. Widely used in a remote milling
operation for incorporating blackpowder.
F. Edge-runner - a trough mill with reciprocating blades to

size and blend mixes with a dough-like consistency, like
some propellants.
G. Rotating trough vertical - like a car tyre rotating with
one heavy rolling ball inside it. Often used for packing
flaked clays, which are tapped free from the inside with
a mallet. Often improvised by hobby potters using a tyre
and hanging belt drive.
H. Rotating trough horizontal - like a circular edge-runner

mill using a sequence of staggered mulling disks running
freely in the rotating trough.
I. Tilting trough - see-saw action with one rolling ball. A

version of the edge-runner mill, but employs gravity for
driving the rolling ball. Typically used to grind slurry
mixes that slowly flow through with the tilting action.
J. Tilting circular pan - cyclic/angled rotation that works

with gravity to drive a square edged ring around the pan
against the pan's inside wall. Generates combined action
of flat grinding with rolling incorporation to produce a
very uniform particle size and shape. Especially used to
produce fine rouge polishing slurries.
K. Mortar and pestle - an automated version of usual mortar

and pestle. The mortar rotates slowly as the pestle goes
over and back across the open mortar. The pestle must be
matched to the curvature of the mortar. Once used by the
early makers of fine artist oil colours, where very long
milling times and a gentle action produce consistency of
hue and texture from natural pigments, resins and oils.
There are various implementations for all these mills, which

as patent attorneys would say, are obvious to anyone skilled
in the art of milling. Given the above possibilities finding
a mill/media/load combination to suit a given task should be
easier. My first choice for general pyrotechnic milling is a
tumbler made from anti-static HDPE, a 310s24 stainless steel
milling medium in two sizes, say 1/2" and 7/8" with radiused
ends, in an 8" diameter by 12" long horizontal tumbler...
Regards, Myke.
jeffchem2000 September 29th, 2003, 03:30 PM

We have many customers that buy tin who make their own bullets I always assumed that it was to harden the lead but never
really thought twice about it. I think they only use the tin in small quantities (a few percent). But yes tin does lower the
temperature of lead melting, We produce an alloy that melts at 109 degrees celcius.
Cadmium apparently would harden alloys better than antinomy but it is more expensive and alot more poisonous.

So is the best media spherical, or cylinders with radiused ends, and why?
If spherical is best, and stainless steel is the most suitable material, then common ball bearings should make a good media.
Tuatara October 5th, 2003, 05:51 PM

I wouldn't count on 'common' ball bearings being stainless. Most bearings run packed with grease so no need for the extra
effort and cost of stainless balls. You would probably need food-grade dry bearings or marine grade bearings to get stainless
balls.
I can't see that spherical media are necessarily best, but if you think about it, anything you stick in a ball mill for a day is
going to end up round anyway!
Xioa October 16th, 2003, 10:23 PM

I'm thinking about getting a Lortone QT12 and i want to make sure I get the right amount of milling media. I will probably
end up buying from the overly priced United Nuclear, unless someone knows of a better source to buy antimony hardened lead
balls. My main question is if i'm getting a 12 lb tumbler, does it need 12 pounds of tumbling material to work optimally? Also,
if i need 12 lb for the tumbler to work well, how heavy would United Nuclear's balls be if they come in a pack of 100 and are 1/
2" around. Lastly, I already brought this up, but is there a cheaper place to buy antimony-lead balls?
jeffchem2000 October 26th, 2003, 04:43 PM

The ball in a mouse (for a computer!)is steel coated in rubber. If you could get hold of enough old mice I would have thought
that they would be ideal - they don't spark and they wouldn't ware out.
Anthony October 31st, 2003, 03:17 PM

Steel on steel would be a spark risk - the rubber coating would soon wear off.
Mumble October 31st, 2003, 08:51 PM

I've been using US coinage with out a problem. Its a mix of quarters and nickle denominations. The only thing I don't like is
that when I'm milling a moist composition, it sticks to the faces of the coins. Its a pain, and messy, to get off. I have a pretty
cheap source for 5% antimony hardened lead shot. Look around in gun reloading magazines. I got this catalog off the
internet some where. If I can find it, I'll post the name and where you can get a copy. Its not 1/2", but it goes to at least 1/4"
or so.
Another option is to get lead from the scrapyard and form your own in fishing sinker molds. A small amount of antimony could
be purchased and added.
[Edit] Alright, found it. http://www.ballisticproducts.com/ It goes to roughly 1/3". Its not extremely cheap, but it's not UN prices
either.
tomu December 7th, 2003, 01:29 PM

Hi there.
just my two cents worth:
I got an e-motor with a gear box at ebay for about US $6 plus shipping it runs at about 90 rpm and has more than sufficient
torque.
A piece of copper pipe from a rain drainage pipe about 10 cm in diameter and a lenght of about 40 cm is the milling jar. The
ends are pluged by wooden disks.
As media I cut 200 small pieces of brass tubing about 8 mm in diameter and 20 mm in length and fillied each littel pipe with
lead. It a sysiphus task but once done they last forever. An alternative is lead wire cut in little pieces. Lead wire can be
purchased at hardware shops. Lead balls in different diameters can be purchased at gun shops, they sell them to
muzzelloader shooters. By the way you only shoot lead balls and never steel balls with a muzzelloader.
I had no problems to get used hardened lead weights from tire shops for a small tip or even for free. They throw the old lead
weights away when they balance a tire. With this lead it's easy to mold your own lead balls. Just take a marble or any other
sphere in the right diameter make a mold out of plaster of paris, let it try, molt the lead an pour. Easy.
Have fun
tomu
hpy2bhre January 1st, 2004, 10:52 PM

My mills are two red plastic rock tumblers I got at walyworld. I use 50 cal lead balls I got from there also for my milling media.
The whole deal, two sets total, were about 30 bucks. I used three inch pvc pipe parts for extra jars. these were cheap and i can
just make up a jar as my chem list grows.The jars that came with my kits, don't really seal well making wet milling hard to
achieve. the pvc ones work well though. I use a threaded cap on one end and a glue on plug on the other. I've let these run
for several days non stop and they never got hot or tried to quit. I think if a person made a mill from parts he had around he
would need a low speed motor instead of gearing down a high speed one. Keep it simple. Its been said before and is worth
repeating that washing machine motors are easy to come by and work well in theses low speed high torque applications.
Booster January 19th, 2004, 07:14 PM

Hi,
Howabout an electric can opener. That might carry the load, and its slow enough RPM. Check out the local good will or second
hand store and cannabalize the parts. Might set you back 4 bucks. With a little creative modification, you could attach a shaft
and new chassis, to the thing.
CommonScientist January 20th, 2004, 09:37 PM

I had a problem a while ago when I was ball milling AN to a fine powder. Everything I used as milling media oxidized, coins ,
.58 lead shot. Do any of you know of a different milling media that wouldnt oxidize?
I switched from ball milling to a half @ss mortar and pestal made out of an aluminum carrige bolt(they have broad
hemispherical ends on them) and a automotive freez plug( pops out when the water in your car freezes , as not to crack the
engine block) that actas as a dish. It was rather labor intensive but it gave me good results!
Mumble January 20th, 2004, 11:45 PM

Ceramic wont oxidise, but that's not the best media in the first place. It will chip and crack. I hear it can also spark(flint in it).
That isn't really a problem with most single components though.
Perhaps you should take a gander at the big pos up about 15 or so by Bert. It has many options. Most metals are going to
corrode eventually. Pretty much anything at a decent price will undoublably corrode eventually. If you want to mill to a powder
without corrosion use glass marbles or something.
Cyclonite January 21st, 2004, 03:20 AM

Coffee grinders work well with AN, alot quicker also. You really dont need it any finer than that.
CommonScientist January 21st, 2004, 07:20 PM

Thank you Mumbles and Cyclonite. I have used marbles before but I stoped because I wasnt getting the results I needed.
Maybe I needed it in longer(2 hours), quite possibly. I used coins but they turned my AN a dark greyish blue(oxides?) so I
stoped using them.
Bert January 21st, 2004, 10:20 PM
If you've got a small mill, it would take longer than 2 hours. When I was in high school I abused my little rock polisher with a
4" Dia. barrel by using it as a ball mill with marbles. It would take 24 hours to grind a load of BP somewhat well... The larger
the Dia., the faster the mill, all other things being equal. Ceramic is good for highly corrosive oxidizers. Stainless steel also.

DUH me. My friend might get me some brass covered lead shot . They are lead shot for a muzzle loader , but they have a
layer of brass on them. I would have to cut one in half to see what the thickness of the brass was , as so it wouldnt come off
in any form.
Bert - I have a thumblers tumbler, 4" diameter barrel , belt drive. It worked good for the little tiem that i used it. I may have
put like 2 pounds of media in it and it still didnt overload it , so its pretty well made. I have a areasol (sp?) teflon lubricant
that I spray on the berrings (the wheels that the barrlel rolls on) so I get as little friction as possible.
tmp January 26th, 2004, 02:29 PM

I use steel slingshot ammo and 1/2" steel ball bearings to grind up
aluminum foil in my Lortone QT12. I'm still looking for a suitable,
heavy, non-metallic media for grinding up chemicals. The ceramic
stuff chips and cracks too much. I'm thinking about using marbles.
krackerjack9 August 19th, 2006, 12:48 AM

How about a garage door opener motor?
Pretty cheap for less than $20 and its going to have the torque to pull up over 300lb garage door should have no problem
moving 12lb tumbler around.
http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=18
DMSOnMyVeins October 4th, 2006, 04:09 PM

you guys ever hit a hammer against a nail kinda crooked? notice all those sparks flying off of it? now think about what a
hammer and anils are made of, steel. steel sparks, and milling with steel is not a good idea. i'm not sure about brass, but I
think it my spark too. try using hardened antimony lead, no sparks and as hard as steel :)
much safer when milling black powder too :)
Ceramic grinding media can be used, it is extremely hard, non sparking and wont contaminate whatever you're grinding like
lead will.
vod8750 October 12th, 2006, 03:23 PM

I recently got some chrome plated steel ball bearings to use in a ball mill. The chrome plating should stop them from
sparking off each other at least until it wears off! i dont know how long that will take though!
The only problem is they are expensive as you really need to buy them new to ensure that all the chrome is still on them.

I'm not sure that chrome plating won't peel after a very short time. It is hard and brittle and likely to chip against other BBs of
the same type. Then you would be in trouble!
I suggest doing a test first, with something like sodium nitrate alone, to check for wear and corrosion resistance.
techtwit October 19th, 2006, 01:01 PM

Take an 8' length of 1X4, support it on a pair of saw horses about 7' apart and try to drive a large nail into it with a 13oz.
hammer. Now take that same 1X4, place it on terra firma with the ground in firm contact directly under the spot where you'll
drive the same size nail and whack said nail with a 20oz. hammer. The results apply equally to ball mills.
Try this for a tumbler: Using 3/8" rebar and 10 ga. remesh, cast a cylindrical reinforced concrete ring about 14" high, 20" dia.,
over and around a core made from the bottom 10" of a plastic 5 gal.(US) paint bucket. This makes a very heavy, non-springy
tumbler with approx. 4"-5" thick walls and bottom. Cast bolts into the concrete to fasten a wooden (say 1-1/2" plywood) lid
and cradle it using casters mounted on a sturdy steel or wood frame. It'd be a good idea to give it about a 30-40 degree back
tilt. One or both of the bottom rollers would be powered by say a 1/3 hp. motor via belt and pulley to yield a tumbler speed of
60 rpm. or less.
For media try this: Using a small muffin pan as a mould and wheel weights as alloy, cast as many "hammers" as desired.
Their truncated cone shape will give them both a rolling and tumbling action. Wheel weights can usually be gotten for little-to-
no cost from garages and tire dealerships, consist primarily of lead with some antimony for hardness, and if the "hammers"
are water quenched as soon as they solidify in the muffin pan mould, they'll be considerably harder than 100% soft lead. One
could try coating them with a thick layer of epoxy paint to prevent contamination.
This is an untried idea meant only to suggest a good direction to experiment in. The basic principle is that when it comes to
any kind of hammering action, the more mass and the less vibration and spring, the better.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Earprotections for blasting
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View Full Version : Earprotections for blasting
Helos S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 05:20 PM

I a m wondering how im portant it is to protect your hearing under differen t circum stances o f blasting.
W hen are m y e a r s p o s s i b l e d a m a g e d ? F o r e x a m p l e o n c e I s a t o f 4 0 0 g o f ANNM and was 45 m away without ear protection, was
it dangerous?(Ifelt no pain afterwards or even directly when the shockwave hit, what I can rem b e m b e r )
An other tim e I hit a sm all am mount of AP with a n h a m m er BANG, a high frequen zy ringing in m y e a r s f o r s o m e m inutes, I
hadnt expected it to be that loud, here it is of course good to wear protections, but how dangerou s was it?) Three tim es when
I detonated a wery powerfull mix of Ap /m g/kcl04 (filmcanisters) from 15-25m away I really felt it in my ears, but it didnt thurt
afterwards, just when the soundwaves hit. How dam aging was this, for exam ple compared with the ANNM ex plosion I m e t i o n e d .
I also want to know if you use to wear earprotections, and when you find it necessary. Is the com m o n e a r p l u g s o k , o r d o I
n e e d s o m e t h i n g m o r e s o m e t i m es( that sorts higher frequenzies out)?
I also hope that this is in the right section and that it is going to be a good topic.
randomquestion S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 05:36 PM

A se arch for "ear protection" found a thread entitled <a href="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb / u l t i m a t e b b . p h p ?
ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000016#000007" target="_blank">"Vision/Hearing precautions when detonating? "</a>. I am h a v e n o t
b e e n h e r e f o r an increadibaly long time but I think you should search before you post. It also seem s fairly obvious that you
should be wearing protection if you "really felt it". It doesn't seem s l i k e y o u h a v e a n y p e r m enant damage yet. Although ring ing
in your ears doesn't sound too good.
<sm a l l > [ S e p t e m b e r 1 0 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 4 : 4 0 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : r a n d o m question ]</sm all>
Machiavelli S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 06:35 PM

Not searching and just creating a new topic gets you your first warning. This mean s 3 things:
1. Please don't do it again
2. Please reread the rules, it m ight safe you from future troubles
3. There will be no se cond warning :D

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Long range vehicle detection
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View Full Version : Long range vehicle detection

Lately, I've been playing around with a laser pointer while goofing off outside. I'm in the middle of a freeway, w ith a car lot a couple hundred yards away.
Well, I've been practicing aiming my laser at the reflectors of the cars so I can see them "blink".
This gave me the idea of using a laser to detect vehicles at ranges farther than you could see them at night with the naked eye.
The basic idea is that practically all vehicles have reflectors on all sides, and license plates are usually retroflective as well.
(A UCLA researcher is already using the laser reflectance idea for automated driving. <a href="http://ansl.ee.ucla.edu/ancg/iris/iris.html" target="_blank">http://
ansl.ee.ucla.edu/ancg/iris/iris.html</a> )
You'd use as bright a laser as possible, pass it through a line-generating optic, then use this to "scan" the area of interest while looking for the telltale flash of laser dazzle off of
a car reflector.
By combining an IR laser with an NVD, you'd be able to detect vehicles at great range w hile remaining invisible yourself.
I've (in the past) used a $200 NVD to pick up the visible red laser pointer reflection off of cars a kilometer or more down the road.
I've been able to pick up cars parked on the other side of bushes where I couldn't see them by the reflection of the laser light of their reflectors, without the use of an NVD.
I tried explaining the concept to a piggie that often parks in front of my store. He (not surprisingly) couldn't grasp it in his feeble mind and said "That's what a spotlight is for!"
and proceeds to light up the carlot with his.
"Great. Not only can you see them, but they can see you as well...for a 180 degree angle at more than a mile, w hile you can only see them w ithin a 20 degree angle for a few
hundred yards." :rolleyes:
With the laser, the incident light at long distance is too weak for a person at the target site to see the light unless they're looking directly into it. Anymore than a couple of
degrees off axis and forget it, you're invisible. And that's only if you use visible light.
Anyways, the use that comes to mind (to my mind anyways <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) is scanning for vehicles waiting in ambush down the
road from you.
For instance, after the store robbery, while being driving back from ID'ing the punks van, I saw how they had their "perimeter" set up to catch the guys. They had a marked
unit parked about a mile up the road with its lights on, but no one in it.
Another half mile up the road from that w as another pigmobile with its lights out sitting in the dark, with a cop in it.
This would mean that they set the lit car as a decoy so that the perps would see it empty, go past it thinking they escaped, then be spotted by the cop sitting up the road in the
dark (where they couldn't see him).
A cheapie NVD with an IR laser w ould be able to spot a parked vehicle at a kilometer, w hile the target wouldn't even know they'd been spotted.
Without the laser reflection, a blacked out car at a kilometer on a dark road would be invisible.
Another thought that comes to mind is all the reflective crap that cops wear, like their badges, gunbelts, etc.
In deep bush, you'd likely not be able to see them directly, but laser glint off of any reflective surface w ould stand out quite readily.

an interesting idea indeed.
if only there w as some way to identify what the laser reflects off.
[ September 17, 2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Mick ]
Machiavelli September 17th, 2002, 03:22 PM

Isn't this stuff used for counter-sniper work, too? For recognizing the reflection of the scope's lense.
vulture September 17th, 2002, 03:53 PM

Have you ever seen the laser apparutus construction workers use to measure up rooms? It projects a laser grid to calculate the distance. With the laser grid projection you could
more easily distinguish in w hich direction the vehicle is moving, if it's turning, etc...
However the chance of detection is bigger.

Tw o things:
Firstly, if you're using a line-generating or some other sort of spreading optic to increase the "scanning area", anyone facing within 180 degrees of your position will notice the
red flicker the first time you sw eep over them, "scanning" them again (and by now they would probably have turned to face your general location) and they'd be able to see
where you are pretty accurately, especially at night.
Secondly, cars and cops aren't the only reflective objects that'll be in your field of view. You'd therefore probably have to have some sort of filter to ensure that your NVD only
detects the reflections from metallic surfaces. This is how they use such devices for counter-sniping, they have filters that exclude all reflections except those from the sniper's
nice anti-fog, anti-glare, anti-whatever-else scope, and can thus pinpoint there exact position.
Anybody know what these filters are made of? And where such materials can be bought or how they could be made (unlikely though)?
kingspaz September 17th, 2002, 05:19 PM

what about the old india way of detecting vehicles (horses)?
put your ear to the ground. the main problem of this is that wheels are alot more quiet than hooves but maybe some sort of microphone could be adapted to listen for you. or
maybe one of those bionic ears could be improvised for ground listening...just a thought
zaibatsu September 18th, 2002, 12:41 PM

Talking of lenses and reflective surfaces, does the old trick of using thin material with a semi-loose weave to cover the front lense of a scope stop the lazer reflecting? The
material allow s the user to see out of the scope, but stops enemies noticing the perfectly round dark circle.
mongo blongo September 18th, 2002, 10:27 PM

Kingspaz- Yes that would work! Put the mic output (via a preamp) through a compressor and EQ it to bring the lower frequencies up. You should be able to hear anything w ithin
a few miles. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src= "wink.gif" /> Good Idea! :)
mrloud September 18th, 2002, 11:06 PM

You w ould need one extraordinary microphone and set of amplification equipment. In fact you w ould be better off using a highly directional mic to detect the presence of
anyone ahead through the air (not through the ground). With an omni directional mic you would pick up your ow n breathing and any other traffic in the area would cause too
much interference.
It w ould even be cheaper to build a simple radar device to detect vehicles ahead of you. At least that could be built out of parts from automatic door openers and radar
detectors. The audio equipment would cost many thousands of dollars and not work nearly as w ell.
J.T.Ripper September 19th, 2002, 05:03 AM

You're embarassing yourself homie.
Leave.
Better yet, let me help you. :)
Oh...don't go away mad...just go away. < img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
[ September 19, 2002, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

Seismic vibration detection doesn't work if the vehicle is parked! Neither does directional microphones. :p
All piggie vehicles have light bars on the top that have parabolic reflectors built in that'll reflect the laser back quite nicely from virtually any angle.
Also, if a glint source isn't moving, then it's a stationary object, right? Annd what objects are stationary by the side of a freew ay or road? Signs and parked cars. I'm sure you
can tell the difference in the pattern.
Look at this reversed image picture of a laser scan:
<img src="http://ansl.ee.ucla.edu/graphics/iris_laser2.gif" alt=" - " />
What's this? A sign or a parked car?
Hmmm...two spots with a rectangle low and center...exit sign? :rolleyes:
Also, look at point of light in the distance on a pitch black night and tell me how far it is. You can't because there's no frame of reference to gauge distance by. I'm assuming a
person wouldn't be stupid enough to backlight himself while using a visible laser. With IR, it'd be irrelevant as long as the enemy isn't using NVD themselves.
frostfire September 20th, 2002, 12:27 AM

Many things/surface properties reflect light...you sure need an extensive data collection to make standarized reflection signature for different reflector (what about those hazy
painted vehicles where it practically reflect no light whatsoever, add that with open windows, it's "invisible")
hmmm, you mean " With IR, it'd be irrelevant as long as the enemy (is) using NVD themselves." ???
also I belive thermal imaging would make a much accurate result (since you'll have your point of reference) and I'm guessing it's cheaper than that light system. Raytheon
camera unit retail about $12000, and I saw the car mount unit some days ago sold at ebay for $5000 (detection range: over 1 mile)
[ September 20, 2002, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: frostfire ]
grey September 22nd, 2002, 07:31 AM

Retail NVDs use IR laser illuminators w hich radiate partly in the visible spectrum, ie., click it on and your're a red dot - hi there ! The illuminators on video cams do not seem to
have a visible component but not being laser emmitters have limited range.
I've looked through the electronics sources to find a non-visible IR laser (diode) but no luck - has anyone found one or w ould the only alternative be a conventional non diode
laser ?
The idea of hitting reflectors at a distance is good - it would also pick up a dog team (dogs eyes are reflective) although the dog would probably spot the light and react.
If you are on foot with some ambient light then the close second best option is still a big (12x50) scope/binos plus nose plue ears. Option C is operate in bad rainy weather
when 90% of the "opposing force" looses interest in being outside..
nbk2000 September 22nd, 2002, 01:03 PM

There are laser diodes available that are w ell into the IR range (over 1100nm), though w hether or not the Wal-Mart NVDs are able to see these, I don't know.
I do know that the red glow is indeed visible on the illuminator that comes w ith the "Moonlight" brand of NVD. But it's very faint and wouldn't really be noticable except at close
range or if moving.
I would think that even simple IR diodes would be useable for short range work. Short range being less than 50 yards. That's nowhere near what a 35mW IR laser could do, but
you'd also only have to spend a couple of bucks at Rat-Shack to get it too. I can see car reflectors blink with a Brinkman LED light at about 50 yards under artifical lighting. Add
total darkness with an NVD and you could likely get a hundred plus yards range.
Dogs and cats eyes are also reflective, so you could scan for any tracking dogs. I don't think that they (dogs) can see past 900nm, so an 1100nm IR laser w ould be invisible to
even them. I did a google search to try to verify dogs visual range but wasn't able to find anything that directly specified their visual range.
PYRO500 September 22nd, 2002, 02:43 PM

I don't think regular night vision devices, esp gen 1 tubes like in w al mart can see much over the near infered portion of light. w hat light they do see is visable and near infired
but it's amplified by the tube. Beacuse the tube sees light that we can't see they commonly make illuminators that take advantage of this and they make it so you can see but
no one else w ithout NV can. I have seen cheap NV illuminators that emit visable light and I have also seen surplus military illuminator flashlights (from decades when NV w as
new) that are designed to work with gen 1 tubes and emit no visable light.
frostfire September 22nd, 2002, 03:05 PM

that is correct PYRO500, however not many NVD at w al mart are the cheap version, some night owl product such as the google ($500-$600)are conversion of russian NVD.
These work very w ell with infra red illuminator.
Now this is what I was referring to, "got money?"

[URL= http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?View Item&item=1382853621]
actually I mean this:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?View Item&item=1383105417" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/w s/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383105417</a>
Also (hopefully related topics) anyone got idea w hat to do with this: <a href= "http://www.apple.com/hotnews/articles/2002/05/draganflyer/" target="_blank">http://
w w w.apple.com/hotnews/articles/2002/05/draganflyer/</a>
[ September 22, 2002, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: frostfire ]
PYRO500 September 22nd, 2002, 09:35 PM

Those thermal infired cameras don't need any ilumination. They already show the heat objects are giving off.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Attracting Lightning
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View Full Version : Attracting Lightning
10fingers May 31st, 2002, 06:09 AM

I was watching this show awhile back about lightning researchers using small model rockets to attract lightning bolts. I think it
was on the discovery channel.
They would attach a small copper wire to a rocket, the wire was on a spool like fishing line on a reel. I suppose you would need
a couple thousand feet.
When there was a thunderstorm overhead they would launch the rocket. If a lightning strike was on the verge of forming near
the rocket it would use the copper wire as a path to ground. The wire could only carry a small current before vaporizing but it
was enough to get the bolt started.
This system seemed to work pretty well, they had several strikes.
Anyway I thought this might be interesting for anyone into such things. Having lightning strike in your backyard would be a
great conversation starter with your neighbors.
One drawback is that your rocket probably wouldn't be recoverable.
[ May 31, 2002, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: 10fingers ]
A-BOMB May 31st, 2002, 08:56 AM

10fingers I too saw that show awhile ago. And what to you mean probaly you mean deffiantly, didn't you see the part of the
show when they went out and found the peices of the rockets. The only part of it I could tell was a rocket was the tail section,
the nose cone and most of the body tube were melted away and there rockets were all made from stainless steel. (I think) But
this would be away to get insurance money if you insurance covers lighting strikes or acts of God.
xyz May 31st, 2002, 09:09 AM

There was an article in the new scientist a while back about using a machine that fired a thin jet of salt water into the air as a
mobile lightning attractor
They were developed to protect people at soccer matches and the like, they set them up about 200m away and all lightning
goes for them and not the soccer pitch (or more importantly, the people on it :) )
megalomania June 1st, 2002, 04:16 AM

That show was about a team of grad students trying to create a new form of carbon using a massive jolt of electricity, which is
cheaper to use lightning. I myself hope to recreate this experiment even though I have no support from friends and family on
this one (I curse the gods and stand outside when it storms). I have my model rockets, and I acquired thousands of feet of
copper wire from the recycle bin at work (electromagnet wire wrappings). I have my eyes on 2 old style TV antenna towers (the
50 foot kind) that are being scrapped. Combine these things together and I will have one hell of a hobby. The only thing I
lack and have no idea where to get is the ionization meter the students used to determine the optimal condititions to launch
the rocket. There is nothing like 1.21 Giga Watts to get the ol blood pumping.
10fingers June 1st, 2002, 08:50 AM

I want to try this too. I forgot to mention that they used an ionization meter to detect when there was a charge forming
between cloud and ground. This would let them know when it was the best time to shoot the rocket.
Without the meter it might take a lot of rockets to get a strike.
I suppose you could just hold unto a tall grounded metal pole and when your hair started to stand on end, launch the rocket.
kingspaz June 1st, 2002, 07:07 PM

never heard of an ionisation meter but i have experimented with gold leaf electroscopes before. they are very sensitive to
static charge so maybe one made with Al foil would be less sensitive due to the thicker foil but it should detect the chrage
buildup in the clouds.
'The simple electroscope consists of a metal case within which, and near its center, is supported in a vertical position a well-
insulated metal strip to the top of which is attached a narrow strip of thin foil, preferably of gold leaf. This strip of foil is usually
spoken of as the leaf. The strip of metal and the leaf constitute the insulated system of the electroscope. When the insulated
system is electrically charged by a suitable switch passing through the wall of the case, the leaf is repelled by the strip, and is
deflected from its normal, vertical position. In opposite sides of the case are windows through which the position of the leaf
can be observed. Such observation is usually made by means of a microscope having in its eyepiece a ruled scale. '
from here:
<a href="http://physics.nist.gov/GenInt/Curie/1927.html" target="_blank">http://physics.nist.gov/GenInt/Curie/1927.html</

a>
vulture June 2nd, 2002, 03:36 PM

I would stick a metal pole in the ground, put a few cm of isolating tube and then put another piece of metal pole on it. If you
connect a voltmeter to the 2 parts you should be able to predict a lighting strike because the voltage get's higher. It's like the
principle of a capacitator.
xoo1246 June 2nd, 2002, 03:54 PM

Seems like a good idea too me, or you could climb a tree and attach the second (isulated from the tree)metal pole.
Why not use a ballon?
[ June 02, 2002, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
megalomania June 3rd, 2002, 01:46 AM

Actually, using a balloon is a damn good idea. A few helium, or better yet hydrogen, filled balloons could carry the wire up and
just sit there. That would prevent the problem of the wire snapping if not unspooled adequately during a rocket launch, and of
course just looks more scientific like. The only downside I see so far, I dont want to be unwinding the wire by hand if (when) it
gets hit. No gloves are thick enough for that. High winds may also be a problem for thin wire.
On a related note, is it possible to induce an electric charge to attract the lightning? And if so how?
PYRO500 June 3rd, 2002, 02:02 AM

It is posible to charge an antenna to draw lightning but it would have to be a very powerful charge to have much of an effect
on the lightning, the ground normally builds up a charge before the lightnig strikes ( remember lightning travels from - to +)
so what you really want is to charge your antenna with millions of volts of electricity although that would have a small effect on
lightning even if you could ever insulate your antenna.The balloon idea is good except that the baloons would get tugged from
side to side rapidly and possibly snap your wire. You could possibly eliminate the need for a wire if you were to make a rocket
that wpuld have a conductive exaust such as copper oxide vapor although it'd need to be very fast and would not direct the
lightning to a specific spot.
mrloud June 3rd, 2002, 02:04 AM

To release the balloon and wire, I would use a very long piece of cotton string. Just pull the end of the string to pull a pin out
of a clip and let the balloon float away unwinding the wire off a drum as it goes. You could always use some sort of fancy radio
controlled release mechanism but it's a safe bet it wont survive the first lightning strike.
In the documentry I saw, the scientists used their mouth to blow into a rubber tube which activated a switch to launch the
rocket. A spa pool shop should be able to sell you this sort of equipment. On our spa, the buttons on the side of the spa are
just little pistons which activate a switch back on the pump/heater box; thus keeping the people away from the voltage.
10fingers June 3rd, 2002, 11:00 AM

I like the balloon idea much better than the rocket. The problem of course would be the wind. It may snap your wire and go
catch itself on your neighbors house or something.
Occasionally there are slow moving thunderstorms with little wind where the balloon might work well.
Snipie June 3rd, 2002, 03:14 PM

Maybe you could use a wire with a thin metal wire weaved through it. Farmers use it as electrical wire to keep the cows on there
land.
Its a bit heavier than the copper wire, but it cant snap, or break (well it can, but not easy). And you can make as much H2
balloons as necessary to lift the heavier wire.
J June 3rd, 2002, 04:13 PM

You could use a motor to unwind the reel. You'd need to test the system first, by adding enough balloons to lift the whole reel
(since that's the final weight of the unwrapped wire).
Instead of using a bunch of balloons, you could use a bin bag filled with hydrogen/helium. I'd rather use helium, because of
the problem of static.
This sounds fun, another project to eventually get round to :)
mrloud June 4th, 2002, 10:10 AM

A lightning detector is used in the mining industry when preparing explosives.
<a href="http://203.2.75.213/filetransfer3/thor.jpg" target="_blank">Here</a> is a picture of a lightning sentry known as

'Thor'. It detects snow dust and electrical storms with high levels of static electricity in the air. It measures the atmospheric
voltage gradient and will flash lights and ring bells when the gradient approaches a level at which a lightning discharge could
occcur.
Bander June 5th, 2002, 08:39 PM

I too have seen this Discovery channel show and become fascinated/obessed with the idea. I've been working to a rocket
along the lines of the discussion here for some time now (first saw the episode 3 years ago). It will use a Richard Nakka style
'G' potassium nitrate/sucrose engine with a thousand or two feet of 28 gauge copper wire with a tungsten lead.
Personally, I'm going to stick with rockets, as much for the 'style' as anything else.
But regardless of the device used, rocket or balloon, the plans for a "<a href="http://www.amasci.com/emotor/chargdet.html"
target="_blank">RIDICULOUSLY SENSITIVE CHARGE DETECTOR</a>" are sure to improve the odds. The above page also has
links to more complex devices and general electrostatics information as well.
PYRO500 June 5th, 2002, 10:03 PM

I built one of those a few years ago it wouldn't help you detect lightning unless you were charged and about to be struck. they
are useful in the TV repair busnuess though.
Zzzzeta June 16th, 2002, 07:12 AM

I work for a company which makes power transformers, so I'll swipe a few thousand metres of fine copper wire and check out
the balloon method. I'm guessing that if you unwind all your wire first, laying it out on a hard flat surface with no crossovers,
you can let the balloon lift the wire without having to worry about operating a spool.
Zzzz

yer, a big field would make a good place to do that. your going to need a pretty big ballon also. it must lift the weight of the
spool of wire. also, when you test make sure the clouds are right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
what about using hydrogen to fill the balloon. its more boyant that helium and will make a nice bang when struck....not that it
would be very noticable against a lightning strike.

A couple thousand feet of copper wire would weigh a few pounds, depending on what gauge it was. So I would guess you would
need a balloon a couple feet in diameter to lift it.
The balloon definitely has advantages over the rocket in low wind conditions since it would stay up there indefinitely.
With a rocket you would have to use some type of ionization meter to know the optimum time to launch the rocket.
Mick June 17th, 2002, 01:01 AM

you also have the problem of will the wire support itself?
what i mean is..

<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-
family: monospace;">O ] - ballon
| ] - part A
|}
|}
| } - part B
|}
| }</pre><hr /></blockquote>will part A of the wire be strong enough to
support the rest of the wire(part B) all the way to the ground, and will the wire be able to withstand the drag created from the
wind blowing the ballon around.

maybe some sort of hollow woven wire, like a showlace made of copper strands, may be more effective. plenty of copper to
carry electricity but very flexible and strong (similar to rope). it would also be a hell of alot lighter than traditional wire.
although where to get somthing like this i have no idea about.

I almost got to test it this weekend because of a big storm, but I was not ready. My hydrogen generator refused to generate,
my wire wasnt ready to be unwound, and the storm was already upon me. The storm proved to be a dud in the end.
Upon reflection I realized you do not need a giant balloon when several will do the trick. I have devised this to make the works
more stable in windy conditions or otherwise:
O 1st balloon
|
| - first wire segment
|
|
O - 2nd balloon
|
| - second wire segment
|
|
O 3rd balloon
|
| - third wire segment
|
|
You can add as much wire to a balloon as it can lift to make it as high as you want. I also hypothesize that this system would
be less affected by winds because each piece can stabilize itself. If you had 10 balloons on top, that is a lot of surface area
being hit by wind. If the wind pushes that down, the total length will be reduced. If you have individual balloons, the wind
conditions will be different for each. The balloons will be pushed and pulled in all different directions, and this should average
out to less moving overall.
I recommend hydrogen only because it is cheaper, and it would produce a nice fireball. Of course that would probably pale in
comparison to the lightning strike. Producing hydrogen yourself does complicate things as the pressure on a homemade
system leaves much to be desired, whereas a commercial tank can fill a balloon much faster.
Tyler_Durden June 18th, 2002, 03:04 AM

i was going to suggest that very balloon placement setup, mega.
anyway,
what's to keep you from setting it up (putting the baloons/wire in position) a 12-48 hours in advance? i mean, why worry about
a method of getting it in place during or close to storm time? just set it up and leave it once you hear a storm is on its way.
I'm thinking of using a very fine gauge PEI (varnish insulated) winding wire, maybe .355mm or so, with the top few metres
stripped bare and the bottom stripped and soldered to a 25mmx150mm copper ground peg. Something this fine will vaporise
instantly when struck, but it should be enough to initiate a strike.
With hydrogen being so easy and cheap to manufacture, I'll use a bunch of party balloons to provide the lift - although since
hydrogen is such a small molecule and leaks out through balloon membranes, there won't be a long flight time.
IAN

The multiple balloons looks like a good idea. You could also use fishing line to hold the balloon and then you could use an
even finer wire. Fishing line can be purchased in large spools and is fairly cheap.
It would be nice if there was an easy way to recover the balloons and wire if there was no strike. A large fishing reel would work
nice but if you do get a strike, you'll need another reel. Something similar could be rigged up that was easily replaceable.
It's too bad I haven't had time to try this because we've been having some good thunderstorms. If I do get around to doing it
I'm going to try to capture the strike on my camcorder.
BoB- June 18th, 2002, 06:30 PM

Dare I say it? You could always go Ben Franklin style, using magnet wire, you could even glue foil to the entire back of the
kite, providing more surface area for a strike to occur. This would solve the problem of thin wire snapping as larger kites can
lift several hundreds pounds, so using thicker gauged, or even insulated wire would not be a problem.
Of course, I sure as hell wouldnt wanna be the one who got the kite in air.
On megas idea; Wouldnt using those foil, semi-expensive balloons be more reliable? the entire balloon could then attract
lightning.

Not to put you down Zeta, but it's not necessary to strip the top few feet of your wire, or do the ground rod thing. There is so
much power in lightning it doesn't give a crap how much insulation is there, if the wire provides an easier path than the air it
will take it. Also, the thickness of the wire doesn't really matter, but thin wire is easier to lift. As long as the wire is touching the
ground (or close) and the top near the clouds it will strike- if the charge is there, of course. You don't have to worry about the
wire not being vaporized either, did you ever see a tree that was stuck by lightning?

Yeah, I know the wire will be vaporised - you should see the fun I have with our 132KV impulse tester at the back of the
workshop ;-)
I'm planning on the lightweight wire specifically because it'll be easier to lift. I'm after something I can let go on its own,
without having to hold a wet string or fishing line in my hands during a violent electrical storm, and PEI winding wire is quite
strong for its size.
You're right about the insulation, of course - the lightning's not going to be bothered at all by a 240v coating. I'll still do the
ground peg though, just as an anchor if nothing else.
All this is academic at the moment, anyway. Sydney's autumn storm season is over, and we're unlikely to see any electrical
storms until October or November. At least I've got plenty of time to assemble the rig.......
IAN
xoo1246 June 19th, 2002, 02:29 PM

We have had something like 10 thunderstorms in three weeks, it really weird. I can remember anything like it. I woke up
02:00 tonight and it sounded like artillery fire. And the sound duration of those strikes was several seconds. I tried to catch an
image with my camera but it was futile.
Harry June 21st, 2002, 02:10 PM

Speaking of Dr. Franklin, if you want a REALLY simple detector, make a set of "Franklin's Bells". One object connected to
ungrounded lightning rod, another object connected to ground. Let's say they're bells. A small conductor (ball bearing, fishing
weight) on an insulating string, hangs between. If distances are right, the bells will ring to indicate a charge buildup.
frostfire June 28th, 2002, 11:17 AM

lightning strike going through small resistance (eg. you body) in its way to the ground or conductor proved to be fatal. Apart
from the electric shock, it's known to generate a tremendous amount of heat (like passing a high voltage through small
resistor), could this actually create a blast to set HE? even if it's not the case, can the heat itself detonate a HE (ones that
detonate with heat...or decompose :()
Fl4PP4W0k June 28th, 2002, 01:13 PM

Yeah.... Im sure the huge electrical energy of a lighting strike would be enough to detonate many somewhat sensitive HE's.
Just think of the amount of raw power lighting has!!
Something like AP or HMTD for sure, as they would be set off by the huge heat wave. Something like PETN... im not sure. Im
guessing that the amount of power would cause the explosive to decompose...rapidly (detonate).
Not sure tho.

Someones gonna have to put some RDX and PETN on the balloons...
pyromaniac_guy June 28th, 2002, 02:25 PM

since a joule or two is all that is required to set off an EBW with pressed PETN it is safe to assume that a lightning stirke would
have sufficent energy to set it off.... Hell it would probably set off AN
Fl4PP4W0k June 28th, 2002, 02:51 PM

Hmm...
If it detonated CaCO3 (chalk) - THEN id be impressed.
Ahahaha... tee hee... ho ho
AmonDin June 28th, 2002, 03:27 PM

I'm a bit skeptical about the baloon thing, the setup with the multiple segments. What are you going to do, sit there... at the
base of the wire.... where the lighning will be drawn... tying the baloons on? Even if you had a way to do this remotely, chances
are it wouldn't survive the strike. The wind would probably snap the wire if you used one large baloon, but you might get lucky.
Rockets are the way to go, and even then, you need a good remote setup, preferably with very few conductive wires leading
back to you, the rocket would have to be launched at the right moment, but several random rockets would probably do the
job. The rocket exhaust would melt the copper wire, but this problem is solved by attaching tungsten leads to the rocket, then
that to the copper wire. My friend and I have been thinking of an experiment of this nature, but we don't have the right
equipment at this time, by the time we do have the equipment, thunderstorm season may have passed. (oh well, there's
always next year)
frostfire June 28th, 2002, 03:40 PM

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1743942615" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/
eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1743942615</a>
you should be able to modify its helium use for altitude & outdoor use....requires a thick wallet for a better one though, but
you can even put camera on it and record the whole show :) :) :) :)
wait, these things got more potential, the 6 channel model can even drop things, take pictire, vidcam etc etc...hmm, any
weapon/intelligence use?
[ June 28, 2002, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: frostfire ]
pyromaniac_guy June 28th, 2002, 04:16 PM

if your worried about a thin wire snapping, why not just buy a very long spool of monofiliment and braid a very thing magnet
wire onto the first 1000 feet of the spool or so.... you can then wrap the filament / mag wire combintation onto a large down
rod with bearings on the ends... this way you trail another 1000 feet of filament to your lightning bunker, and as you slowly
release your end of the filament, the spool turns via the up force ebing exerted by the kite or ballon.... your conductor is then
played out... since very fine wire and monofilament is evry light you could get away with useing very little up force to try this
out... even a few small mylay ballons they sell at grocery stores ect should be sufficent.... (before trying this i would verify the
monofilament you use had little or no conductivity with a tesla coil, ect... just to be sure...)

I like the idea of using fishing line to support the balloons. One could use those as the main supports and just dangle the
metal wire from the top. Using two or 3 lines in a triangular fashon may provide considerable stability even in high winds. You
will just need more balloons.
BobsRAC July 11th, 2002, 06:22 PM

Just a few weeks ago, I had the opportunity to visit the facility at which UF's Electrical Engineering chair conducts lightning
research. This is the only facility inthe US, and the only electronic facility in the world. It is located on Camp Blanding, Half-way
between Gainesville and Jacksonville, FL.
The rockets are sent up 2000' trailing a #32 copper wire covered in kevlar. As the rocket approaches 1000', the streamers
from the storm cloud branch towards the rocket. When the streamers make contact with the rocket, the return stroke (that
which produces the fantastic flash) flows back up the streamer and into the cloud. This process can occur up to 20 times
durring the next couple of seconds once the air has been ionized by the streamer.
The first return stroke carries currents to about 350kA as I recall (this may be inaccurate), while successive strokes carry up to
half of that. Each return stroke lasts apporxamitely 1us.
The facility measures electric and magnetic fields created by the strikes, as well as guiding the current to test fixtures.
The cost of each rocket is $800
Zero July 11th, 2002, 07:26 PM

Here's one for you: What if you just threaded some wire through a regular rope? You can easily get your hands on a balloon
large enough to provide the lift for a rope, as illustrated by those silly things that used car dealerships like to fly over their
buildings. The rope would be a lot harder to snap or mangle than a single stand of wire.
Had I 2000' of wire sitting around I'd try this in a heartbeat...
Away from my house.
~Zero the Inestimable

pyromaniac_guy July 11th, 2002, 07:58 PM
zero...
thats what i had suggested with fishingline... that way instead of useing a 100$ ballon and a full tank of helium, one could get
away with useing a few latex ballons costing maybe 1$ and a much smaller quantity of helium.... i have miles of higer guager
wire, if i had acess to a large enough area to not have to worry about a streamer hitting my house i'd try it myself...
BobsRAC July 12th, 2002, 05:50 AM

The research team at Blanding uses the rockets and kevlar coated spool configuration because it is appearently critical to get
the timing just right. They use filed mills to determine that the electrical fields in the strike area are high enough to be
conducive of a trike. They are connected to the National Weather Service to determine that a storm has produced multiple
return strokes per minute. They also monitor natural return strokes so that they don't fire a rocket just after a natural return
stroke, so that the cloud has time to regenerate the lost charge. Even while they monitor all of this information, and only fire a
rocket when all the conditions are correct, only about 60% of the rockets trigger a return stroke. At $800 per rocket and 100
rockets per season, that's a great deal of money burnt on non-triggering rockets.
I'm not sure that 2000' of rope would be very cost-effective ( nor would be the time required to braid it <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> lol ). Another reason for the use of thin #30 wire coated with kevlar is the assurance that
all material will be vaporized. The kevlar (if you're not familiar with the material) is several timer stronger than steel, and
rarely snapped. I believe they indicated that damage to the wire occured mostly in the case of the spool jamming or
becomming otherwise unable to dispense wire.
Various schemes were brought up by guests at the presentation, including dispersion of brass shavings to form a conductive
path, although this idea was dismised as it does not bring ground potential any closer to the storm cloud.
As a side onte on safety, the group had set up (albeit spaced with holes up to 3 or 4 meters) well-grounded Faraday cages
above and around all structures containing people or test equipment. Another necessary precaution was the use of generator
power ( so as to disconnect themselves from the power grid) while performing lighning testing. All test data was brought into
the measurement center via fibre-optics.
BobsRAC July 12th, 2002, 05:55 AM

And b.t.w.
The rockets are now recoverable and hence are reused many times. Only the spool (much of the cost) and the motor have to
be replaced each time.
And another note:
The research team at Blanding used fiber-optics to control a pneumatic actuatoc. This actuator is mounted at the launch site,
but is isolated from the ground point. This actuator presurizes a line. On the other end is a pneumatic relay that shorts a 9-v
battery to the rocket igniter. This only leaves the battery ( a relatively robust device ) to be destroyed by the strike. In the
case of a strike arcing to the fibre-optic reception circuitry, no electrical spikes weould be fed back to the control area. They
somewhat jovially noted that the biggest problem they had with the system was animals knawing through the fibre-optics.
They had recently invested in armored fibre and no longer had the animal issues.
[ July 12, 2002, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: BobsRAC ]

learn to spell
[ July 22, 2002, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: Machiavelli ]
McGuyver July 22nd, 2002, 02:00 AM

I'm not so sure that your rocket will last that long. If the lightning does just vaporize the copper it will still mess up your
rocket. Think about metal being vaporized- it takes a lot of power to do something like that. If you mess up the rocket even a
little it could drastically effect the flight path and aerodynamics.
I'm not to sure about this but I think the sonic boom you hear is because air molecules or ions or something along that line
are actually splitting. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Also, if someone knows about what kind of rockets the Blanding
research team uses let us know.
PYRO500 July 22nd, 2002, 02:36 AM

No, sonic booms are not caused by air molecules spliting, rather it is caused by the sound waves the object creates getting all
bunched up and hitting you at the same time.
rikkitikkitavi July 22nd, 2002, 03:06 AM

the sonic boom comes from the air(plasma) in the conduction channel of the lightning bolt beeing heated to 4000+ K in about
millisecond, thus expanding extremely fast. Not very different from a high explosive..
some molecules are split, that is why you can(are supposed to) smell
NOx and O3 during a thunderstorm. Never smelt it myself though , since I usually keep me indoors because of the rain.
/rickard
xoo1246 July 22nd, 2002, 03:28 AM

I always smell something in the air, when there is about thunder. I can feel it even before the thunderstorm has fully started,
the weird thing is I'm the only one I know who smell it. It is extra strong if there is some light rain.
PYRO500 July 22nd, 2002, 05:35 AM
I see what you were talking about. Lightning does cause ionization of atoms in the air but it's really the heat that heats the air
in the lightning bolt that causes the air to rapidly expand so fast that it can break the sound barrier and create a thunderclap.
The smell that thunderstorms create is from O3 or ozone. The air strips electrons off of oxyagen and causes them to bond
into the unstable O3 compound. Same goes for the nitrogen creating NOx gasses.
If the smell you are smelling smells sort of sweet then it's probobly ozone. If not it's probobly humidity in the air.
[ July 22, 2002, 04:38 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
Harry July 22nd, 2002, 11:46 AM

The wire-trailing rocket is readily available to certain people on the government payrolls of the world. It's called a TOW missile,
and the wire is used for guidance. Any soldier-types care to try rigging a vertical stand and remote actuator? Anyway, a body
could copy some of the concepts into his own device.
BTW, traditionally (latter half of 20th century, pre-Kevlar), when the really big kites flew, music wire was used instead of string,
being stronger by weight.
Harry
McGuyver July 22nd, 2002, 01:54 PM

My Tesla coil generates tons of ozone so I know exactly what it smells like, and yes, you can smell it after a good lightning
storm.
I didn't relize that splitting atoms makes ozone though.... interesting.
pyromaniac_guy July 22nd, 2002, 02:13 PM

you splitting moluecues, molecules of o2 to be specific.... not splitting ataoms... dont mean to be overly picky here, but there
is a BIG diffrence!!!!
McGuyver July 22nd, 2002, 09:24 PM

Yeah, Yeah, that's what I meant. Wouldn't it be interesting if it was atoms :D .
Mick July 23rd, 2002, 02:48 PM

what you want for wire is fencing tape
<img src="http://www.farmstoreonline.co.uk/media/125154.gif" alt=" - " />
20mm wide and contains 15 strands of stainless steel wire, its 200m long and has a breaking strain of 250kg.
providing you had balloons at intervals down the tape you could quite easily join 20 of these spools together.
but, what are you going to do with the lightning once you attract it? it seems like an awful waste to have it go into the ground.
[ July 23, 2002, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Mick ]
pyromaniac_guy July 23rd, 2002, 03:36 PM

another thought on how to attract lighning....
a spud cannon...
a buddy of mine built a spud cannon that worked on compressed air, instead of combustion. it was more than enought to
propel a spud to distances where it could no longer be seen by the naked eye. if a suitable spud like projectile was coupled to
a coil of wire, you would have a cheap, resusable platform that only cost a few cents per shot (except when the wire got
vaporized) obviously it would require some work as far as remote operation goes, and since this is the EW forum, maybe a
small bag of black powder would be a better propellant, but still, a 20$ jug of black powder would get one many many, MANY
launches....
Energy84 July 25th, 2002, 02:55 AM

The most interesting thing that I can think of to do with the strike once it's attracted, is to ground it into a sandbox or
something like that. I've seen it on TV and in a few books too that when lightning strikes sand, it cooks it and turns it into
glass. Coolest part is, the glass is in the shape of the lightning bolt that hit it. So you could easily record how "thick" of a bolt
you got.
Wouldn't that be interesting, if people started doing this to see who could attract the biggest bolt :p
nbk2000 July 25th, 2002, 09:22 AM

I could see a good use for attracting lightning.
Banks.
As in attracting lightning to a bank, and routing the pulse through the alarm system to vaporize it. At that same moment, The
charge that gets you into the vault goes off. Anyone near enough to hear the explosion will see the lightning strike and think
it's the thunder.
:)
Two birds with one stone.

Hell, even without attracting the lightning, you can still use it to cover the sound of an explosion. Some bank thieves back in
the 60's used a lightning storm to cover the sound of a 20mm cannon blasting into a vault. They fired in time with the
thunder. Nobody knew about the robbery till monday. :p
pyromaniac_guy July 26th, 2002, 01:54 AM

How do you use a 20mm cannon to blast a hole into a vault??? even if it pernatrates, you sure aint gunna squeeze yourself
through a hole that big!!!!
Energy84 July 26th, 2002, 02:20 AM

First you make sure that it's gonna be a very violent thunderstorm, then make sure you have plenty of ammo. I think you
know the rest :D
zaibatsu July 26th, 2002, 02:10 PM

The 20mm cannon won't just punch a 20mm hole through the wall, if you were firing HE shells then the blast will knock a large
portion of the wall out, and weaken the surrounding area, allowing you to either fit in or finish the hole with a sledgehammer
Anthony July 26th, 2002, 02:35 PM

You could make an exploding bridgewire detonator :)

zaibatsu,
have you ever seen a bank vault during construction? they have probably as much re bar in um as concrete... you certainly are
NOT gunna be able to go after that with just a sledge, no matter how much the wall is weakened...
xoo1246 July 26th, 2002, 05:10 PM

Wait a second, the whole cable becomes an exploding bridgewire. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Sorry, this topic has really drifted away.
Is the story about the 20mm cannon true? I belive I saw a film with the same theme(based on a true story, or was it the other
way around, crime based on a movie, sorry I should really go to sleep).
Why not use the thunder to energise a FCG, now that's a good idea. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
[ July 26, 2002, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
nbk2000 July 26th, 2002, 06:07 PM

Yes, the 20mm is true. Happened back in the early-mid 60's. Sounds like the kind of thing you'd see in one of those 70's
action thrillers with Charles Bronson, don't it? :)

From what I understand, most of the standards for modern vault construction come from the governments tests of hardened
structures against nuclear explosions, so possibly the vault in question was built before such information was avalible... I
doubt even high explosive 20mm rounds are going to have much of an effect on a modern vault, not unless you have a
virtually limitless supply of ammo :)
zaibatsu July 27th, 2002, 07:09 AM

The point of the sledgehammer (in my eyes anyway) was to remove the chunks of concrete hanging off after the shell has
struck. But if thats too much trouble, go for a couple of Brunswick RAWs, one shot with one puts a 30cm hole in 20cm thick
reinforced concrete :cool:
DarkAngel July 27th, 2002, 08:09 AM

Xoo: that reminds me of <a href="http://us.imdb.com/Title?0072288" target="_blank">"Thunderbolt and Lightfoot"</a>
,whas this the one you also saw?
PYRO500 July 27th, 2002, 08:10 AM

I'm not sure if this would work but what about one or several manhole cover sized shaped charges that hammer into the wall?
I'd imagine the jet on one of those things would be like the energiser bunny, it keeps on going (through the wall) and going
(through the other side of the vault) and going (through the wall and into the building next door. :)
nbk2000 July 27th, 2002, 09:03 AM

There's a book that was published back in the '70's called "Barrier Penetration Database". It described how to penetrate every
barrier known to that time and how long it would take to do so based on various factors. I used to have it till my parole officer
stole it. :mad:
Anyways, they (the government) did tests against vaults using EFPs. An EFP made from the fish plate of a railroad car (the big
round bumper plate on the ends) backed by 400 pounds of TNT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> blasted
a man sized hole through 6 feet of reinforced concrete, cutting the rebar in the process.
The problem then becomes one of how to avoid drawing attention to the fact of 400 pounds of explosive going off. That, and
getting through the blasted rubble that used to be the bank building to get into the vault.
Much better would be to make a small hole into the vault (~3"), then slid radial shaped charges into the hole. When these are
detonated, they'll fracture the concrete and cut the rebar enough to make a hole for a person to crawl through. This would
require only a few pounds of explosives to accomplish.
Assuming you've managed to channel a lightning strike through the security system, and time the explosions to the thunder,
then nobody should be the wiser. :)
If only room-temperature superconductors were available. Then, if you could capture and store the strike, you'd have an
awesome weapon. Probably kill you to use it, but hey... :)
I've seen in Scientific American an article about using ionizing UV lasers to channel lightning in any desired direction. Catch a
strike and "beam" it onto a target with surgical precision.

you would have to be carefull with the uv laser idea... the lightning propigates along an ionization path caused by the laser..
you would either have to have your laser on the building about to get zapped, or would have to use optics to route it there,
and HOPE the lighining grounds out at the building and doesnt cause a streamer to come back to your laser :)
they normally do this by greatly increasing the diameter of the laser beam at the source, and down collimating it to a tiny
beam in the target area.. but if you can afford such large aperture uv grade optics, you dont need to be robbing a bank!!!! :)
kingspaz July 27th, 2002, 06:17 PM

what about fibre otpic cables to carry the laser? not sure how well UV travels through fibre optic stuff but if it does then you
could have the laser 200m away from where the end of the fibre optic cable pointed to the sky.

fiber doesnt like to transmit uv well, and even in the visable or near ir, bands of light where most fibers transmit mosy
effectivly, it's hard, if not down right impossible to carry the kind of peak power required to do the kind of work were talking
about here... you end up literally blowing the ends of your fiber off...
AmonDin July 28th, 2002, 03:12 AM

Even if it was capable of carrying a UV beam, after the lightning hit, BAM! No more cable. Fiber optic cable is expensive, and
nobody but the fabulously wealthy or the stupendously stupid would use it for that purpose, even if it were possible.
pyromaniac_guy July 28th, 2002, 03:50 AM

multimode fiber suitable for MODERATE power / energy transmission in the near ir can often be had for .01's$/foot on ebay...
rjche August 3rd, 2002, 10:45 PM

For detecting when lightning is about to strike, I recall some scientists studying strikes on a mountain top, viewing it from
another top that had an observatory on it.
They used a 6 ft whip antenna on top of a wood box, with a tuned circuit inside. The ant was connected to the tuned circuit top,
and the bottom was grounded via a spark plug for a gap.
When a cloud passed over with charge the whip would charge up and spark over the gap, causing a humongous signal at the
frequency of the tuned circuit. They worried the FCC might come looking for them, but that didn't happen. Their coil and
capacitor ended up tuned around 8 mhz, which is populated by freaky signals anyway.
Such a device in the direction from which a storm front was coming would alert you that a charged cloud was coming.
One near you could then alert you that it had arrived, time to jump into the faraday cage if still outside, and install ear plugs.
Having been 20 feet from a small stroke once, I can state that it is quite loud, like a deer rifle firing, except a much sharper
brissant single crack, much like a silver fulminate toy firing. The lack of thunder was surprising. It also was not as loud as
expected considering its energy, but then I realized most of that was released far above, and that shock wave propagates
mostly horizontal from a vertical column source.
If you experiment, take my word, the experience is very un-nerving.
I was facing it with my feet perpendicular to the radially radiating current from the strike spot. It is dangerous if you have feet
apart, and lined up with the radial, for large voltages appear over even a foot of distance of dirt, and a spark can jump up one
foot, scorch the hinge at the crotch, and go down the other foot, a common event with cattle.
Most dogs experience this also which is why they fear thunderstorms so much. Even a quite distant stroke lights them up as
they are barefoot, and some feet are always in the wrong alignment.
I mention all that because if one is going to fool with lightning most of those things do not occur to them until after an
"event". So consider it safety related.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > IR-sensor
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xoo1246 June 1st, 2002, 08:57 AM

I b o u g h t a s m a l l I R s e n s o r a c o u p l e o f d a y s a g o . T h e p roduct is supposed to be used in dark areas without any light source,
when someone enters, it lights a 6v lam p for 20 second s. It's beeing powered by 4 1,5 v batteries. The ran g e i s a b o u t 5
m eters. It co sted me around 14 $. I converted it to work in daylight(the area of o bservation had to be reduced, now it work's
m ore like an IR trip-wire, m aybe it can be solved) and to only stay lit for a few se conds.
Does anyone else see the potentials?
Here are three pictures:
Original prod uct: <a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/IR02.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/
~u47802930/IR02.jpg</a>
Circuit: <a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/IR01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802 930/
IR01.jpg</a>
W ith a small pipe attached with tape(n ot very final), I have tried a pipe with large r diam eter and it works better: <a
href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/IR03.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia .com/~u4780293 0/IR03.jpg</a>
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 0 1 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 7 : 5 9 A M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : x o o 1 2 4 6 ] < / s m a l l >
Magas June 1st, 2002, 09:36 AM

xoo
W e u s e t h e m all the tim e at our gun club. You should h a v e g o t s o m e s m all plastic slats with the unit that decrease the spread
(saves the pipe). The one we have in oz don't have the light sensor cut out and hense are active all the tim e. Try getting a
P I R f o r a n a l a r m unit they also have ajustible sensativity as well. Ours ru n to a LV / HV relay so that when you walk in an area
it activates our movin g animal targets. Or could acivate anything such as m ine or mortar with electric ignitio n
xoo1246 June 1st, 2002, 10:02 AM

Yeah, I was planning to get m yself a better m o d e l t o d o e x p e r i m e n t s w i t h , I b o u g h t t h i s i n e x p e n s i v e o n e t o h a v e s o m ething
to test with a t first.
That's another good use for IR sensors, the shooting range. :)
PYRO500 June 2nd, 2002, 03:48 AM

Y o u c o u l d u s e a m e t a l t u b e a r o u n d t h e e x p o s e d P I R s e nsor after you rem ove the wide an g l e l e n s .
mrloud June 3rd, 2002, 01:45 AM

Is the detector sensitive to the IR light em itted from an IR LED? If so, you could shine an IR LED down the barrel of your
detector and you should have a fairly cheap and effective infra red 'trip wire'.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Places that sell fun, frowned uppon things?
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mark May 28th, 2002, 01:32 AM

Ive been on the look out latley for for places that sell minor illegal things that most reputable establishments dont carry. Things like swithblades, illegal firew orks, pharmacuticals
if your so inclied, and in general, fun things. So far, Ive found that the fleemarkets in poor comunities are a good sorce of paraphenalia, knives, cheap and well
made,crossbow s, and on good days, firecrakers.
Has anyone else found good sorces for these kinds of things? Especially fireworks?
PYRO500 May 28th, 2002, 02:05 AM

fleamarkets are really the best, but another place to look is at school, the mexicans w ho never show up on time or do any work most likely live in the gheto and can hook you
up, doesn't mean it'll be cheap though. As for firew orks, i'd never buy them from the muds at my school as they usually are from mexico and are so fuckin shoddy they can and
do go off in transit, I have seen things from boxes of m-1000's (good old silver salutes) sitting in the bottom of a box w ith a ton of flash that poured out of a few shoddy ones
and many of them have flash on the ir sides (guess w hat happens if you light em?) they also tend to have short fuses and generally be crap.

I have never neede much illegal stuff. i had a friend with a fireworks permit :D
other stuff could be found legally, or from 'contacts'
Unfortunately there are no fleamarkets in my area. if there w ere i think i would pay at least a weekly visit, especially the things some people get from them.....
inferno May 28th, 2002, 07:24 AM

hahaha, im going to a "Food dealer" in Melbournes chinatown this weekend w ho has BB guns hidden in Tuna Tins and firecrackers in all sorts of "Food containers". As well as
shells and shit :)
Anyway, hes a chinese guy w ho runs a food shop with various "fun frowned upon things", and believe me, if your city has a chinatown area, there will be fireworks galore if you
have "contacts" w ho know about the shops (thats how i know about this place, from a friend).
If he got caught hed be in a lot of trouble, fireworks are pretty illegal here unless you have a licence (That includes buying fuses) in all but one state, which is a 10 hour drive
for me, not worth it. Its funny though, you enter the state with the "Welcome to the ACT!" (its actually a territory) then 50m later, and every 50m from then on, "FIREWORKS
NEXT RIGHT" "FIRECRACKERS 300M" "FIREWORKS SOLD AT NEXT LEFT" etc.
Demolition May 28th, 2002, 08:00 AM

In the ACT now they've banned all fireworks for sale to the public,the only w ay you can buy them now is with a licence.
It doesnt w orry me a great deal,I dont really care that much for firew orks now that ive moved onto bigger and better things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="w ink.gif" /> I'd rather spend $50 on some AN or KNO3 or any another precursor or chemical for that matter,but I must admit fireworks are pretty fun to play with. :D
Makes you feel like a young kid again. :)

one day i'm going to canberra just to stock up. i think i'll hire a truck or something.... :D
i have a friend who w as originally from there, he used to buy half sticks of dynamite all the time.....
Demolition May 28th, 2002, 08:05 AM

Ive never had that happen before,I must of got you by a couple of seconds. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :cool:
(times of posting our replys --> both 7:00am)
mark May 30th, 2002, 11:13 PM

My comunitie is full of rich, white, fairley useless kids, so I have no "contacts" for fireworks. Does anyone have any any tips for hunting them down in chinatown? Cricket or
nbk, as w e share the same state, do you have any tips for me?
nbk2000 May 31st, 2002, 04:38 AM

Get to missouri mark. Fireworks are legal to buy there all year round. Check the phone book for a show room. Hurry up 'cause the 4th is coming by quickly.
I've avoided gooks my whole life so I'd no nothing about chinatown.
PS: Why on earth would you buy them? Hint...forum...hint.
Magas June 1st, 2002, 09:57 AM

Hi Guys
Surprize the things the gov does not tell you. You can actually buy fireworks in NSW legally. When you buy a pac from ie howards they include the special Workcover permit for
private use but you have to be over 18. They are small pack the larger ones require a public events permit ie more money and a copy of the safety vid. Ps they also sell electric
matches as well.
inferno June 1st, 2002, 10:28 AM

Magas - Do you mean there are certain "packs" you can buy, as long as you are over 18?
Do you know anything of this in victoria? Making my own shells (KNO3+ sugar+S rocket fuel leading to some basic stars and a burst charge of home-made bp or whatever) is
easy enough but buying the chems and stuff costs a lot, and theres a good chance your rocket w ont work properly or something, so its easier to buy fireworks.
krimmie June 1st, 2002, 10:55 AM

If you must buy fireworks...this has been a reliable source for me. Although I have a showroom close by, one can order online as w ell.
<a href="http://www .neptunefireworks.com/" target="_blank"> http://www .neptunefireworks.com/</a>
mark June 6th, 2002, 12:33 AM

Thanks for that link, do theys ship to states w here there banned?
S. Toppholzer June 6th, 2002, 05:03 PM

I once went to see a gun shop that has been closed by police due to a minor legal problem. I talked to the shopowner to buy fuse, double base smokeless powder and the like.
Nothing illegal, mid you. But then he showed me some firework the police has forgotten to take along. That was professional firework: Big spheres with a piece of fuse that
would be mounted on the big kind of rockets used at professional fireworks. He offered them to me. Unfortunately, I didn't have that much money with me.
I guess even if lit on the ground these big bastards must be real impressive!
Jack Ruby June 9th, 2002, 01:59 AM

Gooks, and Charlies are Viet Cong(VC). Chinks are China-men. NBK I thought that you of all people would have the slurs down. If you w ould like I will compile a list :D
China Town would be where I would look for anything. Guns, Explosives, whores(Love Asian Women; What an OVER-SEXED RACE). Just don't fuck around dow n there they w ill
cut of you ball and eat them with Chicken-Fied(missing r was intentional)-Rice.
nbk2000 June 9th, 2002, 08:56 AM

Firework companies only ship to states w here it's legal to own the fireworks you're ordering. Otherwise it'd be too easy, wouldn't it? :p
mark June 10th, 2002, 05:20 PM

Fleemarket scores again! I just bought a set of 3 jaguar throwing knives form some chinese guy. The only problem is, I dont know how to throw them.
Nbk, are you sure there arent any that might be willing to bend the rules a bit?

Maybe if you knew the owner/manager on a personal level... Otherw ise, pretty much no chance, they have no idea who you are and you're going to be placing a small order
(they'll probably get multi-thousand dollar orders frequently) and if caught they could face prosecution, hefty fines and a damaged reputation - definitely not w orth the profit
they'll get on sending you $50 of firew orks.
MacCleod July 15th, 2002, 02:53 AM

Another thing that helps build trust from the fireworks sellers is having children with you,as the police aren't allowed to use minors in sting operations (in the U.S.,anyway).That's
how I hooked up with my current supplier.
PYRO500 July 15th, 2002, 06:03 AM

I'd question the legitamacy of the cops not being able touse minors for stings, in fact they were recruting minors (high school students) that were under 18 to volunteer for the
cops to go to quicke marts and liquor stores to see if they could get beer/cigarettes, if they w alked out with the stuff in hand the cops w ould come in there and arrest anyone
responsable.
[ July 15, 2002, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
nbk2000 July 16th, 2002, 09:12 AM

It's one thing to involve a minor in a beer buying bust, and another in a drug sting or gun running bust.
I doubt the clerk who sold the minor beer is going to whip out an UZI and start spraying lead when the coppers come to cuff him up (w ell, maybe I would... <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).
PYRO500 July 17th, 2002, 02:32 AM

I just posted that as an example that they do use minors for undercover stings, probobly not for arms trade stuff but I think it would be safe to assume they could do the same
with firew orks.
MacCleod July 17th, 2002, 04:17 AM

Pyro500,my kids are 3,5 and 8 years old.It's pretty safe to say the police don't send toddlers in to buy smokes!I agree ,though,that minors are used to catch smokes/alcohol
age restriction non-compliers (should'nt have used the word 'sting'!).The reason I mentioned it was because both of the dealers I buy from approached me in state-legal stands
(sparklers,fountains,etc.) and offered to hook me up with non-state legal stuff,because I had my kids with me.
[ July 17, 2002, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: MacCleod ]
PYRO500 July 17th, 2002, 05:31 AM

I thought that your kids w ere older, I guess it would look really bad if you used very young kids for something like that.
malzraa March 7th, 2005, 01:38 PM

Yeah, I have always had a good time getting things from high-schools in the ghetto areas of town. Poor people have way more fun!



Some of the head shops are quite useful for this sort of thing - certainly they are more likely to hold interesting stuff.
The gadget shops (smaller novelty) sometimes have fun stuff. I found a tiny Berloque flare pistol in one, once. Rather neat, I fired it a few times, then realised it was 5 years
for possession of it, and destroyed it. (Yes, 5 years *mandatory minuimum* for something that was designed to go on a keyring, bought for 20 in a high street shop, and firing
little fulminate caps!)
Car boot sales can be good, but it is rare to find anything cool these days, as they are far too commercial round here.
Dodgy pubs? Get a job in one, and see what you get offered! One of my mates got offered two different guns, including an Uzi, + loads of dodgy gear, whilst working in a local
pub for all of a month and a half! And it w as about the least dodgy pub ever :-)


nbk2000 March 16th, 2005, 07:42 PM

Ever wonder if the guy offering the Uzi w as w orking with the security services?
nbk2000 March 16th, 2005, 07:42 PM

nbk2000 March 16th, 2005, 07:42 PM


Hard to say. The UK doesn't use them for anything at all. It's all MP5s and other H&K toys.
It could have been a sting, but the UK doesn't really go for that in a big w ay.
Some years later, not very far aw ay, a reporter bought, for 1200(!), a 7.62mm tripod mounted belt-fed machinegun with a whole load of ammo. An Uzi seems pretty tame
next to something that could cut a house in half!


tmp April 9th, 2005, 06:34 AM

Us po' folks are often left to our own devices because the government
generally doesn't give a shit as long as w e don't raise alot of alarms
or interfere with their fund-raising efforts. Naturally, w e become more
creative because of necessity ! And, YES, we know how to have FUN ! :D



The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Van De Graaf Generators
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View Full Version : Van De Graaf Generators
endotherm May 15th, 2002, 08:04 PM

Anyone in here interested in Van De Graaf Generators?
Anyone built one?
If you have no clue what they are <a href="http://www.howstuffworks.com/vdg.htm" target="_blank">CLICK HERE</a>.
They have virtually no use as a weapon, but for some reason seem very intriguing to me due to their ability to produce 10-12" spark gaps! Their concept is simple, but is it
really that easy to build one? I was thinking about building a very small generator about 12" long, to produce small sparks and be portable. Any tips or suggestions?
Cricket May 15th, 2002, 09:52 PM

I just did a bit of research on this, about a week ago. I searched at google.com and got several very useful pages. My science teacher has one and I started messing with it
and I got interested. I shave my head and I wondered what it would feel like if I got shocked on my head and it hurts! The only other thing to say is, go to Jhonbus's sight, it is
useful and has many links. <a href="http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/</a>
mongo blongo May 15th, 2002, 09:55 PM

Have a little look at my post in
<a href="http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000341" target="_blank">http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?
In my first post I described a way that one could be used as a weapon.
It was just a stoned up idea I had once but I have never tried it.
AcridSmoke May 15th, 2002, 10:26 PM

Well, I've had a bit of experience with these generators. My science teacher was sitting there shocking the crap out of her arm one day when we came in (she's kind of nuts).
This fairly small one (about 2 feet) made 4-6 inch sparks with a little dome. It ran off of a tiny motor plugged in to a wall socket.
The application of a weapon if modified to a more combat-efficient design should not be ignored, but friendly fire would be quite a problem.
edit:mistype
[ May 15, 2002, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: AcridSmoke ]
PYRO500 May 15th, 2002, 10:58 PM

I have one and can tell you they serve no purpose as improvised weapons, they may make pretty high voltages but their current is virtually nil, the only reasonable use for one
is to charge leyden jars or electrostaitic experiments, they are fun to mess with but unless you need to charge something with static electricity then you don't really ned one of
these.
A-BOMB May 16th, 2002, 02:08 PM

Pyro500 its the intimidation factor most sheeple don't know shit so they would be scared shitless buy the sparks just because they see to many movies where people or
monsters are fried with some thing like that.
J May 17th, 2002, 05:52 AM

For intimidation, it would be easier to buy or build a stun gun. You would need an enourmous Van de Graaf generator to produce lethal voltages/currents. By it's very nature,
it's voltage output is determined by its height.
Mick May 17th, 2002, 07:08 AM

if its intimidation factor your after, buy a fucking gun.
its really that simple.
i have been interested in building a van de graaff generator for quite sometime. i know how to build one, i more then likly have the materials for building one - however its
just one of those projects that never quite makes it to the top of my list.
if your looking for cool looking arc's and that sort of shit, build a jacobs ladder. i built one a few months ago, its still amazes every time i look at it. only difference with a
jacobs ladder is you can't touch it and go "wow! my hair standing on end", usualy when you touch a jacobs ladder you say "wow! my chest cavity just blew open, and i have
3rd degree burns to 40% of my body, and my feet have melted to the floor!"
kingspaz May 17th, 2002, 05:46 PM

could a tesla coil be improvised into a weapon? i don;t know much about them but i'm sure some one does...
CyclonitePyro May 17th, 2002, 07:15 PM

You don't really build a Jacobs' ladder, you just take two pieces of wire and attach them to a transfomer so they are angled away from each other. They are neat though and
would be nasty to touch.
Tesla coils are awesome, no real use as a weapon though. A friendof mine built one in school that makes 400kv sparks. Not really sparks though, just a whole bunch of high
frequency, high voltage archs that go into the air and every which way. He is going to join the forum but I think has to wait for the 2 weeks. His name is McGiuver(sp?)
I thought there was someone by that name here already. Can anyone confirm this, and if he changes his name will he have to wait another 2 weeks?
mrloud May 18th, 2002, 12:19 AM

There's lots of info at these two sites.
<a href="http://www.powerlabs.org/" target="_blank">http://www.powerlabs.org/</a>

<a href="http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/</a>
Jhonbus May 18th, 2002, 02:04 AM

I have some experience building all sorts of high voltge devices, including VDG generators and Tesla coils. VDGs are fairly easy to make (I used some coke cans as the top
terminal and a rubber band for my first one) This gave about 2" sparks about every 10 seconds. The thing was about 1 foot high, maybe a bit less. I tried to build a bigger
version, but I couldn't get anything suitable for the belt.
Neither Tesla coils or VDGs would make a good weapon. If you somehow managed to attach a TC to your arm or something, I think you'd be more likely to shock yourself
than anyone else, and the range would never be more than the distance to the ground. (ignoring laminar argon streams or UV laser-ionised air channels.)
PYRO500 May 18th, 2002, 11:14 AM

As a matter of fact I am a member of the powerlabs message board, they are more diverse than us when it comes to general science and electronics. as for using a VDG I
would say definitely not but a tesla coil (I am currently collecting parts for one) can be lethal but again the device will not behave in the manner necesary to do what you want,
I have herd of people trying to use argon to draw sparks but their results were that they only managed to get the arcs to travel about a foot or two in that direction. Now, in a
reduced atmosphers eg, space for example you could put one of these to use in destroying other space craft but you got to get there first :) .
AcridSmoke May 19th, 2002, 05:13 PM

Hmm, I just had an idea...
What about something with either a Van De Graff or Tesla above a doorway, facing downwards? It would probably be a suitable theft-deterrent mechanism, but not lethal.
Charge it up at night before you sleep (or whenever), and then let it sit until someone steps within the range of influence. Then, they get a painful shock of electricity to the
head or face...
Just an idea.
PYRO500 May 19th, 2002, 10:10 PM

That won't work beacuse neither will hold a charge for that long, the van de graff will loose it's static charge very fast after discharging and even if one that was that small was
left on continuously it wouldn't hurt that much. a tesla coil is not designed to hold a charge either being a resonant transformer it will not have any charge after turned off
photonic May 29th, 2002, 02:10 AM

Tesla coils could definately be used to kill something. I suppose they're not too useful in the field because they will "zap" anything that walks by. The arcs from tesla coils are in
the megavolt range. Read the safety data at <a href="http://www.pupman.com" target="_blank">www.pupman.com</a> to see why they'll kill you. I too would like to
build one and am collecting the parts for one. If anyone knows a good source of large amounts of inexpensive bare copper magnet wire, I would love to know as this is the
main component keeping me from building one. After I'm finished I'll videotape the rats in my attic being cooked and that'll give you some idea of what that much energy will
do. Anybody know the approximate current through the body from a tc? I suppose a tc
would only be practical as a defensive weapon.
[ May 29, 2002, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: photonic ]
nbk2000 May 29th, 2002, 05:31 AM

It'd seem to me that a simple high voltage neon transfomer would be adequate for a lethal electric barrier.
Imagine a bank a high capacity capacitors charged with several thousand amps of juice. These are connected to a "bead" curtain where the string is actually steel cable with
small fishing hooks on it, and the area around the door threshold has a copper ground plate underneath the carpeting.
When some intruder passes through the curtain, it snags on them. The pulling of the cables causes a state of change in a motion sensitive switch on the curtain, triggering the
capacitor bank to discharge a hugh amount of lethal amperage through the intruder into the ground plate.
Or the neon transformer hooked to a wall socket would fry them too.
VDG are static electric generators. Painful, but not lethal in realistic sizes. Teslas are complicated and expensive.
Mick May 29th, 2002, 12:25 PM

it would be much easier to simply install a door with 2 door knobs.
then hook the NST to door knobs. that way when they try to open the door they have to complete the loop.
also, i think people would see the little fish hooks hanging from the beads. in which case it would be easier to omit the presure switch and all that, and just hang some thin
steel cable, because as soon as it arcs to them its going to stick to them. or if te steel cable was to obvious you could use some stainless steel fishing line and then put the
beads back on, only use chrome plated type ones because i'mm pretty sure they conduct electricity - if they don't, just use little hunks of charcol every few beeds.
PYRO500 May 29th, 2002, 03:27 PM

you don't want a NST to fry someone, they don't put out a whole lot of current, sure they give you a good jolt but will not deter everyone(I know beacuse I have several). you
want a microwave oven transformer, most of them give about 2000V at half an amp that is 1,000W at enough voltage to overcome skin resistance, in the reapair industry we
consider them one touch lethal in that you NEVER want to touch one beacuse they kill easily due to the high wattage.as for a capacitor bank they sound like a good idea but
aren't practical due to the necessity of having to be charged and the real high energy ones aren't designed to hold a charge for a long time. The dielectric in these mammoth
caps will quickly tear itselves to peices if they are holding a charge for a long time. also you need a relitively high voltage to have one discharge through the skin rapidly and
ensure lethality. In the case that someone were to use a very large pulse cap say 7000J at 10,000V (140uf) a person coming in contact with the capacitor would pretty much
be ensured an explosive amputation. I remember when I was 12 I had a 700J capacitor bank and built an action figure electric chair out of popsicle sticks with little bands of Al
foil on their heads, I closed the switch and their head got burnt with the vaporized Al foil, how about a full sized version except no foil? think they complain about the chair not
being humane enough now...
Mick May 29th, 2002, 07:03 PM

"will not deter everyone."
wtf? of course its going to deter people. if i get electricuted i'm not about hang around.
also, i reckon it would kill you, because its going to force you to hold onto the door knobs which means your going to be stuck there for a reasonable ammount of time..
either way, i'd hate to be the poor cunt holding onto it.
PYRO500 May 29th, 2002, 08:17 PM

Nah, a neon sign transformer will probably arc to your hands before you can grab on to them, electricity can arc about 1.1 mm per KV so 15,000 would be 16.5 MM and you
would get kind of a burning shock but you would pull your hand back very fast and not do much damage, ifd someone suspected that way was boobytrapped the certainly
would avoid that way they'd either kick in the door or find a window or something, electricity can cause you to hold onto something but something as low current as the neon
sigm transformer will only be a deterant, if you want something high voltage that would work fairly well and kill would be a pole transformer (pole pig) hooked directly to the
mains and to the door, now you want to avoid arcing to the door jamb so get rid of the metal lock cover and any wiring near it and also you need to make this thing so it
won't canstantly arc at the some 28Kv it may put out so you mod a capacitance door alarm (little things that have wire that loop around metal door knobs and wire it up so
that when the door is touched the transformer kicks on with the BIG relay you have and arcs to their hand, that would be like touching a powerline and would likely kill the
person due to internal burns not to mention other complications such as fibrilation.
just make sure you don't get near it cause if you do it may likely be your last.
nbk2000 May 30th, 2002, 02:31 AM

The hooks are at the bottom of the strands since they'll catch the legs without being readily visible like at eye level. Once snagged, they're fried.
Whatever you use, it should have sufficient amperage to "lock" them in place so they don't let go/jerk away. Once frozen in place, they deep fry inside till they're dead.
Microwave transformers one touch lethal? Cool. Plenty of those around at junk stores waiting for use.
Good idea about the capatitance switching to prevent arcing before the victim gets locked on by the voltage.
If I'm not mistaken, you can build high voltage capacitors from glass bottles and foil that'll hold lethal high amp/voltage charges for days (dry air). In the AmSci CD
somewhere.
If all you have is a NST, that'd still be enough to rock their world. And no reason why it can't kill if you arrange it so that the shock causes an "accident". Like if you had metal
handrails on a staircase/ladder with breakbeams/switches to energize the NST when they're near the top. They shock stuns them and causes them to fall down to their death.
I've heard of people getting caught in coils of electrified razortape while trying to sneak over a border. Even when the voltage isn't lethal, the fact that they're getting
constantly shocked jerks their body around inside the razor coil, causing them to get shredded and bleed to death from hundreds of lacerations.
"explosive amputation"?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Think you could build a baton device that'd be safe to handle that could dump that kind of charge on contact? Now THAT'd be something to have at night in the back alley.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Bum:
"Hey man, can you spare a buck?"
NBK:
"Get a job or get a gun you fucking bum!"
Bum:
"What?!"
NBK:
"Quit begging! Makes people hate you."
Bum:
"Fuck you!"
(Bum attacks NBK. NBK whips out "Kill-O-Watt" baton)
"zzzzZZZZAP!"
Bum:
"AAAAAAHHHHHHH! My arm's gone!"
NBK:
"Punk! :p "
That rip-off scam site called "Amazing Concepts" used to advertise something similar in concept to a "Kill-O-Watt" baton. But it could only blast a pinhole through a soda can.
I'd want something that'd explode the can or vaporize a fist sized chunk of flesh on contact. Oh, and rapid recharging(<3 seconds) from batteries.
PYRO500 May 30th, 2002, 03:49 AM

Ha! a baton that has that much energy in it, you'd better get a face shield :) . In reality that much energy could only be stored in a 300 pound mammoth capacitor, but if it
was hidden... Those energy storage caps aren't designed to hold their charge for more than a minute or two, unless you find the perfect dielectric that can store an amazing
charge in a tiny space then you will have trouble with these devices. I think a relitively powerful transformer attached to a door that is activated on touch is the best although if
a person can fall when they are locked onto something there is a possibility that they may break free. I said earlier microwave oven transformers were considered one touch
lethal, I ment that they are mostly fatalities when people really get a hold of them they give seriously powerful shocks and will cause internal burns easily. I have personally
seen an arc from one melt glass! they can be used in parralell for more current (roasting power) although too many will trip a breaker. Those salt water bottle caps you
described are far too low in energy density to be very useful and are kind of lossy and have very high esr's.
[ May 30, 2002, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
Flake2m June 5th, 2002, 11:03 AM

Couldn't a VDG or a Tesla coil be used an electronic weapon?
I am thinking that the sparks would create electrical interference that may be able to disrupt communications devices.
With some experimentation and research it may be possible to build a VDG that would create electronic interference at a specific frequency.
PYRO500 June 5th, 2002, 01:58 PM

No, you wouldnt be able to disrupt communications with one beacuse they do not resonate at any frequency, I guess a tesla coil with a spark gap and coil could but there are
beter and more powerful ways to jam.
photonic June 5th, 2002, 04:44 PM

Tesla coils are fairly inefficient antennas and therefore don't make good "jammers." I suppose if you made one with a huge top capacitance and ran it just below the break out
point, it would probably disrupt some of your neighbor's TVs, portable phones, etc.. but like PYRO said, there's better ways to do it. Also, tesla coils are fairly dangerous and
there would be no reason to use something that can kill you so easily just to jam communications.

Actually, tesla coils jam AM raio for a radius of about 1/2 mile or depending on the size of the tesla coil, much further. They couldn't really be used as weapons except if you
carried around a generator and a good ground. It is also very large and bulky, maybe some kind radio-controlled car thing driving around with an extention cord attached to it,
to zap the mailman. I built one that generates 400,000 volts and makes a 12 inch(probably more) arc to a grounded wire. They also generate ozone if your interested in
helping the ozone layer. :)
PYREX June 9th, 2002, 10:16 AM

If you want to build a jammer the most important thing is the right antenna; the most powerful RF-generator is useless if you don't get that power on air. So for a medium
sized tesla coil with a resonant frequency of lets say 600kHz your lambda/4 antenna will have a length of 125m (still interested?).
The next thing to consider is the tuning. As you may know the impedance of the feeding coil has to be the same as the impedance of the antenna coupled to it. A coil
producing 400kV has an input power of I'd say 800W. The resulting impedance of the secondary is therefore around 200MOhms whereas your antenna has only 50Ohms.
Conclusion: forget your secondary! Build a new one with the needed 50Ohms impedance@your frequency instead. This new one may not look much different than your
primary.
Tell me when you've finished, I'll turn on my radio :D
PYRO500 June 9th, 2002, 04:43 PM

I think that 800W is just a guess put out there, you cannot really determine a tesla coils power by the voltage you need the current too.
While antenna selection may be important I would say that the amount of inductance and pulse with and spacing. when you build a spark gap jammer you are not simply
throwing out junk you have a relitively wide pulse that has a peak at it's most powerful frequency nd covers surrounding frequencys at lower power. I would recomend a
pulsed high voltage capacitor as a power source. When you pulse the capacitor through the coil you create a magnetic field and when the magnetic field state returns to zero
the collapsing magnetic field creates something called EMF ringback, this is the actual cause of the jamming and is determined mainly by the inductance in the circuit. If you
look at an RF tuner circuit you will see that all they are is a capacitor and an inductor. as a matter of fact you can directly determine the frequency by the inductance and
capacitance in your circuit.
nbk2000 June 9th, 2002, 09:04 PM

I hold out high hopes for room-temperature super conductors.
According to an article in Science (or similar) years ago, a ring made of SC material would be able to maintain a perpetual charge of high voltage energy. They said you could
pack a lightning bolt in a ring the size of a frisbee that'd weigh only a few ounces. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Now THAT would be impressive firepower to be packing! 'course the problem becomes one of how to avoid become the ground for your own lightning strike. Perhaps UV laser
ionization? That'd direct a charge to a target.
PYRO500 June 10th, 2002, 12:36 PM

You just can't wait until you have your patented nbk2000 super tazer, more energy than than the z machine at sandia national labratories in the size of a box of matches. The
problam is that with a higher voltage you need a good dielectric to protect you from shock witch would work as a capicitor dielectric to store your energy :rolleyes: .
nbk2000 June 10th, 2002, 10:07 PM

Nobody ever said it'd be easy (or safe...or sane <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) to make. :D
10fingers June 10th, 2002, 11:30 PM

Tesla coils are good at generating RF across a wide range of frequencies and thus can screw up TV's and radios in the immediate vicinity. The range would depend on the
power and oscillating frequency. The FCC would not like these things.
A good capacitor for a Tesla coil can be made out of sheets of glass with a piece of aluminum foil in between. You also need a spark gap in the primary circuit to adjust the
frequency to match the resonant frequency of the secondary. Carbon arc rods for welding make good spark gap electrodes.
Usually the primary is just a few turns, maybe 10, of highly insulated wire with the capacitor in parallel. The primary voltage needs to be high to start with to jump your spark
gap, a neon sign transformer works good for this. You could use an SCR (silicon controlled rectifier) instead of the spark gap but I think the spark gap is simpler and able to
withstand higher voltages. The secondary is usually a couple thousand turns of fine varnished wire. The capacitance for the secondary is formed between the turns of wire so
no capacitor needs to be added.
The greatest voltage will be produced when the oscillating frequency of the primary is matched to the secondary.
PYRO500 June 11th, 2002, 05:18 PM

I don't think an scr would work very ell with a tesla coil, mainly due to some limitations they have. High voltage scr's usually have some kind of switching rate or a speed at
witch they can switch witch is usually too slow for a tesla coil, they also will be subject to ringing or oscilation in the tesla circuit when the voltage is reversed, also the circuit
will continuosly be conducting forward witch means that the scr will never switch off! They work good for pulsed power applications (I can attest to this) I built an em
disklauncher and a coilgun out of one I have.

My secondary is a little over 1,000 turns. My tesla coil uses a rotary spark gap which is more efficient than a stationary one. It's not as hard on the caps too. Tuning is very
important with a TC- it will be very wimpy without it. Instead of changing the turns of wire- add capacitance- it will give you a hotter spark and a better shock :) . Also, it
depends what kind of voltage you are working with but, there is a company (not sure,-search) that sells 10KV caps that work perfectly for my TC. I used 2 oil-filled ignition
transformers(the kind used in air conditioners) they put out 10KV each.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > gun's in australia
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View Full Version : gun's in australia
shane May 29th, 2002, 07:14 AM

d o e s a n y o n e a n d i m e a n a n y o n e a t a l l k n o w ' s o f a g o o d d e a l e r i n a u s t r a lia to sell guns illegally and i'm t a l k i n g a b o u t a d e c e n t
gun that won 't go off in your face email me at shaneprice@start.com .au
Arkangel May 29th, 2002, 08:56 AM

3rd post a new topic
New topic a blatant incitem ent to either supply illegal weapons or assist you in finding som eone wh o will.
Not even in the weapons section
Not very bright Shane , you do not have an illustrious future here . In fact, you don't have a future at all. I just want to be the
first to point this out to you before you are transferred to BFL.
Quite possibly the m ost stupid post in the whole of May, thanks for cheering me up :D
<sm all>[ May 29, 2002, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]</sm all>
shane May 29th, 2002, 09:07 AM

o h t h a n k y o u a r k a n g e l n o w i n s t e a d o f b e i n g a n a r s e h o l e a n d p u tting my comm ents down figure out a way i can get a decent
gun if you had the restrictions we have in australia you'd be fuckin pissed off as well now either help with th e question or fuck
off one of the 2
Energy84 May 29th, 2002, 09:24 AM

H a h a h a , n i c e m e e t i n g y o u s h a n e . A s s o o n a s a m od trips over this one, you're outta here.
And how the hell did he get a rating? He only has 4 posts... Oh well, I wo n't have to worry about it for m uch longer I'm sure.
Arkangel May 29th, 2002, 09:31 AM

Oooooh, I was wrong, it wasn't the most stupid post in May, your petulan t response was.
O k , s i n c e y o u s e e m u n a b l e t o grasp it the first time rou nd, I'll cover the com p l e x i s s u e o f F o r u m rules.
Starting with new topics. It's pretty clear, both in the rules section, AND in BFL (take a peek, as that's where y o u ' r e h e a d e d )
that newbies should comm e n t o n o t h e r p e o p l e ' s p o s t s , a n d e s t a blish some credibility before they start a to pic.
Next, this is a theoretical board, where people discuss in general term s, the subjects of explosives, weapon s, and other related
issues. It is NOT a place to com e and find weapons or explosives, since the people here are unlikely to either be able to, or
willing to help you - e ven IF you'd told them where in Oz you live. Obviously, a pig would not be so stupid to post as ridiculous
as yours to track down gun de alers, but if you're that thick, who would trust you not to drop them in the shit, whether you're a
pig or not.
quote: "if you had the restrictions we have in australia you'd be fuckin pissed off as well"
W ell, for your inform ation Sha ne, I do live with those sort of restrictions. In fact, I had my own handguns removed by the state
because of changes in legislation here. That said, if I DID want a gun, I wouldn't look for one on the internet, I'd be down the
local pub, or asking my dope dealer what he knew.
I will help with your question, and that is by saying use your fucking brain and think about what you want. If (as seems to be
the case) yours doesn't work, find a grown up who's got one and a s k t h e m to have a think for you.
I wish you the best of luck, since if and when you DO find a gun, you'll almost certainly po int it the wrong way and cap your own
ass :D
(And by the way Energy84, I rated him. I chose "lowest rating" because there wasn't one for "if this guy had a couple more
brain cells he'd be a plant". Maybe I shouldn't have bothered as it's confusing. As you say though, shouldn 't be an issue for
long )
<sm all>[ May 29, 2002, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]</sm all>
Magas May 29th, 2002, 10:59 AM

I t s g o o d t o s e e y e t a g a i n i d i o t s m a k i n g p o s t s . T h a n k g o o d n e s s t h e p e o p l e t h a t h a v e g u n s h e r e i n Australia try to k e e p t h e m
out of the hands of illegal idiots. W e l l i s u p p o s e t h e r e i s b a d a p p l e s i n e v e r y b u n c h .
Anthony May 29th, 2002, 11:10 AM

I think Arkangel has covered everythin g :)
Byebye fool!

T h e r e ' s a r e a s o n w h y s h a n e s h o u l d n ' t h a v e a g un...
<img src="http://www.boom sp e e d . c o m /eawf/sh ane.jpg" alt="" />

aussie_boy October 16th , 2 0 0 3 , 0 9 : 4 7 P M
silly shane i live in australia as bad as the gun laws are (there even banning som e t y p e s o f h a n d g u n s ) n e x t t i m e u s e y a
peanut brain on what ya say
Originally posted by Magas

I t s g o o d t o s e e y e t a g a i n i d i o t s m a k i n g p o s t s . T h a n k g o o d n e s s t h e p e o p l e t h a t h a v e g u n s h e r e i n Australia try to k e e p t h e m
out of the hands of illegal idiots. W e l l i s u p p o s e t h e r e i s b a d a p p l e s i n e v e r y b u n c h .
aikon October 16th , 2 0 0 3 , 1 0 : 5 6 P M

OH MY GOD!!!
i'm a newbie too, but....

...i can't find any words for that!
Wild Catmage October 18th , 2003, 11:16 AM

If you searched you would have found two perfectly good threads at http://www.ro guesci.org/theforum /showthread.p hp?
s=&threadid=1528 and http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1531
But wait, these are your posts anyway. Also, Anthony's last post in this th read was at May 29th, 2002 04:20 PM, ove r a year
ago? Is there a forum bug here that no-one has spotted?
Anyway, I'm signing up this em ail address to every spam site I can find :D .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > carbide ca n n o n ?
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A-BOMB August 2nd, 2001, 07:23 PM

I just found a old can of carbide in my grandfathers shed and he had a cannon that used it, then the nice little pigs come and
took it away http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/frown.gif well it was pretty cool, we ll m y uncle told m e that h e f o u n d t h e
plan s i n a b o o k a b o u t i t b u t h e d o e s n ' t h a v e t h a t b o o k a n y m ore. So any ideas o n how to m a k e a g o o d o n e?
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb
DarkAngel August 3rd, 2001, 10:54 AM

I always hear that farm ers use carbide,
W here do they use it for and where can i buy it?
------------------
arkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)

s e n d t o s e c t i o n 1 @ h o t m ail.com
A-BOMB August 3rd, 2001, 01:51 PM

They use it to make accethaleny gas for blow torches and in miners lam p s a n d f i s h b o m bs, where you take a m a s o n j a r a n d
put a hole in the lid a sm all hole just big anoth e to let water in and tie a brick to it and toss it in the lake then.... Boom a n d
scoop up the fish. Oh , I forgot you mu st put it in water and it look like gravel. And I buy mine in norm alville out near indian
h e a d o u t n e a r d o n a g l e o n e x i t 9 o f t h e P e n n s l y v a i n t u r n p i k e . A n d w h e n y o u g e t t o n o r m alville you will see bigam s gas station
it right across from it the name of the store is Millers once your in the store its in back on the left it costs $4.76 and its 3
pound cans.
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y A - B O M B ( e d i t e d A u g ust 03, 2001).]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Valveless Pulsejet Engine
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Axt May 16th, 2003, 03:59 AM

Been thinking about them for the last couple days, trying to think up one that is easily manufactured. Below is what I may try -
<img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/jetengine.jpg">
Is the hot intake going to be a big hinderance? thats the only possible flaw I can see. Even if its not a terribly efficient design do you think it would run at all?
If anyone has any experiance at all I would like to hear it.
Heres a mpeg of a valveless pulsejet in action - <a href="http://www.brainvirus.org/jetrun2.mpg">MPEG</a>
Another - <a href="http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/images/kartrun2.mpg">foot on brake mpeg</a>
Tuatara May 16th, 2003, 05:25 AM

Funny thing is, the moment i saw the title of this thread i thought of all the U shaped designs I've seen on the web, and wondered if some sort of concentric design would work. And Lo! theres your picky of a
concentric design.
There are two possible issues I can see:

1. In any heat engine you want the coldest intake air you can, because of the Carnot efficiency limit and the greater air density.
2. that section of the exhaust tube which sits inside the inlet tube is going to get bloody hot.
However The hotter inlet air may allow you to use a less volatile fuel, eg Kerosene. You could also use your fuel to cool the exhaust tube by either wrapping a metal fuel line around it or using a double wall tube. The
spark would then be placed where the fuel entry is on you diagram and the fuel would be injected back towards the spark from the inner end of the exhaust tube.
You might also be able to add a third tube out side the inlet tube to act as a venturi driven by the short pulse that comes out the inlet, in order to draw cool air from the front of the engine (pure speculation here).
Hope you've got good ear protection! I understand these things are insanely loud. Would that make it qualify as an improvised weapon?
Axt May 16th, 2003, 05:50 AM

Noise is the main reason I want one .. I like loud noise (when im making it). .. heh heh. That second movie is a New Zealander, you may have heard him. (check out his <a href="http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/
">site</a>, making a cruise missile)
I would use propane, as valveless engines need to be fuel-injected, and there no room for fuel feeding problems. Gaseous fuel seems like a far easier way of doing it.
It may not get that (relatively) hot, considering how the intake from the U designs never goes red like the rest, the constant air flow keeps it cool. The ribs aligning the exhaust will also aid in cooling (perhaps).
Tests will have to be done!

the problem i see is, how the hell is it going to suck air into it if the air intake is facing the opposite direction of travel. the intake MUST be on the front since the engine cannot draw air into itself. being on the front
allows air to flow in as the thing moves. also in your design there is no reason why it can't exhaust out of the intake.
Axt May 16th, 2003, 03:29 PM

Ummm...
Did you download the movies? The air IS sucked in the back and the combustion gassed DO come out the air intake, hence the reason intake is at back - to add thrust.

Kingspaz, what you describe is essentially a ramjet. The pulse jet only works because the moving mass of gas heading out the exhaust can create a negative pressure behind it. This would normally open a reed
valve to draw more air in. The valveless pulse jet relies on the mass in the inlet being less than in the exhaust. The are also resonant factors at work. And air, being a fluid, will happily go around corners :p
Actually Axt, you might want to make the length of the inlet tube adjustable, with a close fitting outer sleeve. I would not be surprised if there is an optimum length ratio between inlet and exhaust. Make one
tunable and you wont need long hours in front of a calculator
Axt May 17th, 2003, 02:17 AM

Ive actually been thinking about that Tuatara, while the design is simple to make (ive since found out it HAS been done before), its near impossible to modify if not made exact the first time. Theres most definately
an optimum length, and seemingly quite a narrow one from what ive read.
Ive redisigned it to be easy to modify and take down. Hopefully if made with the exhaust/intake longer you could just chop them back until it resonates, no point getting fancy when the likelyhood of it working is
slim.
<img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/streamjet.jpg">
Its also just joined via a flange so easy access to the fuel line.
Axt May 17th, 2003, 07:40 AM

Intercooled concept -
<img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/intercooled.jpg">
I think you meant to say wrap the fuel line around the intake rather then the exhaust tuatara. Sounds like a good idea thats easy to test.
The thing im finding hardest to design is delaying the ignition, as the red hot steel will ignite the gas as soon as it hits air, out of sync with the pulse - fuel injector placement will take some thought (im guessing).

I would love to make a pulse-jet engine. I don't have the tools though :(. My CDT teacher at school made a jet engine, a foot or so long, and that was cool. It made a deafening, whining roar and shot out blue flames
:D.
There seem to be plenty of plans on the 'net for all kinds of engines, so one shouldn't be too hard if you have a spot welder and perhaps a lather and milling machine.
Fuck, I just watched those vids - look at 'em glow!! They look fucking sweet.
Axt, another great project if you like noise would be a copper halide vapour laser with a mechanical spark gap. You get a spinning wheel with deafening sparks shooting off its circumference at many hundred Hz, and
intense golden green beams of light (several dozen watts in a big one, easily enough to burn holes through stuff) shinning out of a red-hot block of refractory - they're the stuff that Sci-fi horror movies are made of
:D. Would be easy to make with a lathe and milling machine, if you're into that kind of stuff. I did have a vid, if I can find it I'll post it just because it looks cool.
Anyway, back to jets... I don't think I've seen this design before. I saw some that had slits at the front wich let the air in, and behind the slits were strips of metal, arranged radially around a central shaft. At the
other end of the shaft was an impeller, with the combustion chamber between the two ends. The impeller spun due to exhaust gases passing over it, and this sequentially covered and uncovered the slits at the
front. The thing was timed so that the fuel was ignited while the slits were closed, pushing exhaust out the back. When they were opened, the negative pressure sucked more air in and mixed it with fuel. The
momentum of the impeller/shaft carried it round, closing the slits again and the cycle repeated. For this you would need to be a good metal worker, but this design looks much simpler - the kind of thing you might
be able to knock together out of plumbing and tin cans, if you only wanted a small one (inefficient, but loud :)).
Edit: haha, that's made me a happy man. My computer crashed half-way through replying, and I thought my reply was lost. OK, so it isn't very useful, but it's still anoying when you type them up and they get
deleted.

Tuatara, thanks for correcting me. i ALWAYS get those mixed up :(
Axt May 18th, 2003, 04:32 AM

What! ... a "copper halide vapour laser with a mechanical spark gap" .... now that would just make me a nerd! heh heh.. would like the vid if you can find it. Funnily while I like making loud noise, im the only one I
know that cant stand any forms of music, its sends me insane!
I havnt seen a design like you posted, but its simular to most pulse jets which use valves, the valves on a V1 operating are easily seen on this <a href="http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/images/
v101.mpg">movie</a>. supposedly the valves need replacing every run, that really sucks since the valves are the only hard bit to make! valveless are less fuel efficient but dont need any maintenance.
I run the idea in the last pic I posted by some pulsejet gurus and they gave it the thumbs up, somewhat inspiring.

Lol, yes it would make you a nerd. But you would be a loud nerd.
mt1988 May 20th, 2003, 02:40 AM
he also making plan for a no weld pulse jet
http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/noweld.shtml
for a donation you can see the draft copy of his book which has every thing you would want on pulsejets, once ive finished my Boosted dart project going 30,000 Feet, im build a ramjet with a soild booster
matt
Axt May 24th, 2003, 05:08 AM

The jet powered trike!
http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/jet-strike.jpg
The lockwood (patent #3462955) power source was chosen because its something tried and true, no point trying something fancy so it doesnt work, getting all dismal about it and having the shits for a month.
Bike tyre / 1.5" tube construction, easy enough (i hope). Everything else i'll work out when I get to it.
Seems like im going to need massive twin 12" wide combustion chambers on the thing to get it moving spritely enough. With an estimated fuel consumption of 4 litres a minute.... damn!
Axt June 11th, 2003, 08:47 PM

Yes, im an electronics retard, so could someone answer the questions presented in the circuit diagram below. Is this circuit the best way of getting a repeating spark, or is there a better way of doing it?
http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/circuit.jpg
Ive drawn up the likely configuration of the kart below, Ive inverted the wheels so that there is two at the front as its more stable and lets me use the back end of a motorbike - therefor readymade brakes and
suspension.
http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/framefulltwintank.jpg

I'd make it 4 wheels if I were you man. With only 1 wheel in the back it will still be pretty unstable. I would put two in the back and make the axles as long as you can. If this thing gets up to a decent speed you
don't want it to roll for a mile if you have to turn sharp at a high speed. Maybe if your front tire has a very small turning radius but even so. You can buy like a go-cart axle and have really good hydraulic brakes and
nice wide tires for more stability.
1. Those ends are where you need to connect your battery. Positive (+) 12 volts DC gets connected to the top, and negative (-) or ground gets connected to the other side.
2. The 1N4004 is a diode. On the diode there will be a line around the diode that is closer to one side than the other, put it the way it shows on the schematic.
3. For the capacitor, sometimes it doesn't matter what side gets connected where, I believe it has to do with the cap is made of, or it could be the low capacitance, not sure.
I have another circuit somewhere that makes plenty of spark and works on about 3V - two C or D type batteries. The only thing is you have to do is get a E type transformer form and wind your own transformer.
Winding the transformer is kind of a pain. The rest of the parts you can buy or find, I'll scan it if you think you want it. I used the circuit to make a stun gun.
Tuatara June 13th, 2003, 12:08 AM

Well, maybe not the best way to get a spark, but it will work. Using an automotive ignition coil takes care of the hard part.
There are a few nasties in this circuit.

1/ there is no control of the peak current in the coil - it is limited only by the ignition coil resistance
2/ T2 will get bloody hot, so bolt it to a BIG piece of aluminium heatsink
On q3 the cap will likely be either polyester or ceramic type, so polarity doesn't matter. Only electrolytic (eg the 220uF one in your circuit) and tantalum caps are polarised
Love the pics! Are you sure you want your propane tanks that close to the engines?
Axt June 13th, 2003, 12:30 AM

Thanks guys..
Mcguyver, i would think that 3v circuit you describe takes too long to rercharge to give a repeating spark that I need, wouldnt it. And I think a 12v battery will end up being used to provide some starting air for the
engines so 12v = good.
I dont think there will be great stability issues, it is a straight line machine. The inverted trikes are supposed to be nearly as stable as the 4 wheelers and have less ground friction. Theres a lot of homebuilt 3-
wheelers here (http://www.ccpc.net/~jaho/3wheel2.html) and none look like slow machines!
Ive actually already stripped down an old AG100 to use the rear end, 1 fuel tank, a seat and an engine is nearly completed so its well underway.
As for the closeness of the tanks to the engine, the tanks are likely to last about 5min of run time. At that rate im hoping the tanks will get cold enough that the engine heat will have no effect on them and if they do
it could well be a positive effect, keeping them warm so that they keep delivering pressure.
priapo June 13th, 2003, 04:11 PM

You have made a good choice with the dual wheel in front but if you have chosen this configuration trying to get less friction you have mistaken something.
Front wheels needn't be so thick as you are not going to get high speeds. I would use at least 19'' bike wheels. These, apart from having less resistance with the road have a bigger diameter than the ones you
chose what leads in getting less vibrations in the vehicle (specially in the junction between the wheel and the chasis).
I would also place the wheels in having a small angle from their natural position (they would look this way /--\), doing this you will take better the curves, giving more stability to the vehicle too.
I am quite close to car projects that compete in the Shell Eco Marathon race and this is the configuration we use. I also have the project in IDEAs format if you want to take a look at it.
Again sorry for my English, if you have not understood anything of the above I will gladly rewrite it.

Okay, I didn't realize it was a straight line vehicle. The 3V spark system does charge kinda slow, but I think it may need a different capacitor, like yours, to change the rate of discharge. Not sure, but yeah 12V
would be better all around for your vehicle.
The way your tanks are mounted looks fine. Since almost the whole tank is in front of the engine the air rushing past it should keep most of the heat away. Also the fast discharge of propane out of the tank should
cool the tank itself plenty.
priapo, Axt didn't say anything about this thing being slow, why would it be slow?:confused:

I mean slow when speed doesn't get to 70-80km/h, which is quite a good speed for such a small vehicle that doesn't seem to weight too much and doesn't have a good bodywork. If speeds are greater than 70km/h
discard common tubeless bicicle wheels as they won't work too well.
Shell Eco Marathon's cars can get close to 85km/h (at least one of which I know) and it gets really difficult to control when it gets more than 60km/h and it has a really well designed bodywork, high quality
amortiguation devices, armwheels, ....
Axt June 14th, 2003, 03:02 AM

Im looking at 100-150 km/h or killing myself trying, go-karts are easily capable of these speeds. You must remember the design was made not to just work well, but some things are sacrificed so it can be
convenient to make. Therefore the front wheels are off a racing go-kart for easy steering assembly, back of a bike for easy breaking etc.. no point designing some super-car then not being able to make it.
Note that in the link I posted earlier its stated that a very crap go-kart with a less powerful engine was taken up to 100km/h.
And yep.. as I said, these tanks are likely to be exhausted within 5 minutes so they are more likely to freeze up then overheat from the engines. There is likely to be a heat shield behind the seat (not shown in
picture) that will reflect a lot of the heat back onto the tanks but its still an unlikely problem.

I figured you were going for some decent speed. :)
Do you know what frequency that circuit will produce sparks? I would think you would need something pretty fast. I don't get how your going to control that or if you need to. If your looking for something constant
there are better ways to get a constant spark. Maybe spark isn't even needed after the engine gets going?
Axt June 14th, 2003, 10:11 PM

The spark is just to start the engine, no need for it once its running. But since its unlikely to start first go, im guessing you want a fairly constant spark to help it hit its right beat
... fuck, I just dropped the bike on the engine and dented it....
McGuyver June 15th, 2003, 01:14 AM

Well if your looking for constant 10KV oil burner transformers are easy to find. They produce a spark about 1 inch long and it's constant. Try some air conditioning repair shop or someone that does air conditioning
repair.
There are also neon sign transformers that produce 15KV. These are just made to power neon signs. These two tranformers if you can find one will light just about any fuel/air mixture.
Axt June 15th, 2003, 01:36 AM

12 volt? It has to be battery powered.

Oops. Silly me, forgot about the freeze factor with high drain on your propane tanks. Chances are you will have to heat the buggers to keep the pressure up! What are you going to do for a regulator? Ordinary
propane tank regulators seem to be capable of only 2kg/hour throughput.
Forget neon sign trannies, or oil burner trannies. Primary volts too high. Use automotive ignition coil - they are designed for the job!

Yeah you would have to have an inverter to get 120VAC. Not to big of a deal if you want the constant spark.
Ignition coils aren't too bad of a choice they work off low voltage but their spark is way colder and won't light your mixture near as easily.
Axt June 15th, 2003, 06:04 PM

I'll go for the coil .. this way ill just incinerate myself as opposed to electricuting myself as well.
The tanks will more then likely be inverted to inject liquid propane, should be able to get enough fuel into it that way. It does sound dangerous but!

You know depending on where you do it you might have some electrical outlets nearby. You could reduce your weight quite a bit without all this starting shit. Batteries weigh a ton. You planning on doing this on
some kinda track or what?
Axt June 15th, 2003, 11:57 PM

It would be quite impractical to have to plug the vehicle into a powerpoint to start it, its not like im after the land speed record. You could probably carry around a starting box containing the battery/air blower/
ignitor circuit etc. but I really like the idea of sitting in the "cockpit" hitting some buttons and starting the engine.
As for the starting components, what I had in mind was a rechargable gell-cell battery and a 12v vacuum cleaner to provide the air, not that heavy.
http://www.absbattery.com/images/slapic.jpg http://www.iowa80.com/iowa80/images/S35747.JPG
Axt August 4th, 2003, 04:37 AM

Just a picture update:
http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/jetstrike.jpg
Axt August 6th, 2003, 05:31 AM

Better picture:
http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/jetstrikeside.jpg
The back will be built up more with engine mounts, heat shield etc. but that pretty much shows the scale of this thing. While a fibreglass body would look nice, I think the possibility of needing a quick exit rules out
that.
Mr Cool August 6th, 2003, 06:04 AM

Nothing to say, except that it's looking nice so far!

Looks awesome but it appears that the whole rear assembly is like off center? You are still planning on two jets right? If you really want to get some decent speed I wouldn't think you'd want more thrust on one
side of the vehicle pushing it to the right or left. Maybe it won't make a huge difference but it would seem better to have everything lined up, maybe I'm just seeing wrong.
Tuatara August 7th, 2003, 07:13 PM

Looks as though that engine is untested. (no heat marks!) Don't you think you should do a static test on the engine before leaping into building a complete cart? It would be sad to have a flaw in the engine ruin your
vehicle on the first run. It would also be well worth measuring everything you can on the running engine - thrust, center of thrust, thermal, fuel consumption rate etc... Something may come up that requires a
change in the overall design. (I speak from my years of experience as an engineer:D )
Axt August 7th, 2003, 11:19 PM

Actually none of the back end is even mounted on the frame yet, hence its off centre look. I still plan to have everything centred with twin engines flanking the rear wheel, though im unsure if the engines will be
independant of each other or joined through the combustion chamber.
To take static/thrust tests I would still have to build a wheeled platform with engine mounts - which is about all ive done thus far anyway. Im sure to test one engine first to make sure its correct before worrying
about the second.
Axt November 30th, 2003, 03:01 AM

Its getting there ..... slowly.
<img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/jetstrikef.jpg">

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > M o b i l e P h o n e J a m m er -
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megalomania May 25th, 2003, 04:31 PM

Dracul
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 73
From : Melbourne, Australia
posted 02-22-2001 03:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D o e s a n y o n e h a v e a n y p l a n s t o m a k i n g a m o b i l e p h o n e j a m mer using the crystal out of an old m o b i l e p h o ne? I know they
e x i s t b e c a u s e a f r i e n d o f m i n e h a s m ade one and it works, not sure if it works on a l l p h o n e s t h o u g h . H a s a r a n g e o f about
1 0 m using 12V.
W hen I see him next I will try get the design off him .
------------------
"By the powe r of Grayskull, I HAVE THE POW ER!" He-ma n
Check this out www.stileproject.com
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y D r a c u l ( e d i t e d F e b r u ary 22, 2001).]
green beret
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 101
From : Austra lia
posted 02-22-2001 08:50 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Dracul, I dont know, but does anyone know how to m ake a device to "listen in" on m o b i l e p h o n e c a l l s ? L i k e s o m e t h i n g
that you can 'tune in'?
Also, I dont know if you all know this o r not, Bu t you can tune in your reg ular FM radio to listen to cordless phone ca lls at close
range . Just get the phone when no-one is looking, take it 'off the hook' and tune it in, better to u s e y o u r w a l k m a n . T h e n
w h e n s o m e o n e i s u s i n g t h e p h o n e s i m ply switch on the walkm an/radio and move around a bit until you pick it up, p l e a s e n o te
that this m ay not work on all phones, if it dosent, you could possibly try AM but I doubt it.
[This message has been edited by green beret (edited February 22, 2001).]
Metal
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 137
From : I'm everywhere.
posted 02-22-2001 09:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dont know about m o b i l e p h o n es, but I know that som e of the new cordle s s p h o n e s h a v e s o m e s o r t o f j a m m ers in them s o
nobody can listen in.
The one that dont you can listen in by scanning frequencies with a Police Scanner until you get it. I doubt that the FM radio
m ethod will work that well.
------------------
Knowledge Is O ur Greatest De f e n s e A g a i n s t T h e i r I g n o r a n c e
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
posted 02-22-2001 10:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can pick up CB's (at least it sounds like it) rig ht at the bottom e n d o f F M b a n d o n m y radio
atropine
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 129
From : wales
Registered: OC T 2000
posted 02-22-2001 01:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you could tap into m o b i l e p h o n e s t h e n c o m p a n y s l i k e m o t e r o l a w o u l d b e i n s h i t . T h e m o b i l e p h o n e j a m m er can be m a d e
with a UHF oscillator working, at i think 415m hz ( i think that is pager). It would have to shoot from one end of its spectrum to
the other at great speed im m i t i n g a s q u e e l . T h is would cause white noise on the m obile in question.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
posted 02-22-2001 01:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was a thread about scanners before the big crash . I think you could buy them online and they could pick m o b i l e p h o n e s
and police ra dio.
vehem t
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 580
From : C a n a d a
posted 02-23-2001 03:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the USA they used to sell scanners years ago that could pick up the m o b i l e p h o n e ' s b u t h a v e s i n c e b a n n e d t h e m a n d
removed the capability from a ll the scanners m anufactu r e d a f t e r t h e b a n . I ' v e s e e n a d d s f o r p r e - b a n s c a n n e r s b e f o r e .
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From : s o m ewhere in florida
posted 04-05-2001 10:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all cell phones transm it/receve a datastream frequency, jam that ant the phone will go offline
Sgt_Starr
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 120
From : Petersburg
posted 04-07-2001 10:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How hard would it be for m e to tap into m e n a b o r s p h o n e s ? c o r d less or o therwise
------------------
"Oh Sh".::BO OM::((later
in front of sa int peter))
"it"
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 04-07-2001 10:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It would depend on the type of phone, the freq uencyes used and if it was spread spectum
BoB-
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 679
From :
posted 04-08-2001 02:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no direct info, I dont own a cellphone, but I did find this site about various hacks for phones:
http://www.gsm -link-heaven.n et/

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Ghillie suits? - Archive File
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megalomania May 25th, 2003, 04:35 PM

phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 03-14-2001 11:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
d o e s a n y o n e know where i m i g h t b e a b l e t o f i n d s o m e i n f o o n m aking th em and patterns that are used for different terrains?
sealsix6
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 154
From : NYC ,NYC,USA
posted 03-14-2001 11:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I once saw a thread at www.airsoftzone.com (I think that is the site)
lesbianloverjon
New Mem ber
Posts: 24
From :
R e g i s t e r e d : M A R 2001
posted 03-15-2001 03:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.ghilliesuits.com
SMAG 12B/E5
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 61
From :
posted 03-16-2001 11:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was an article in "American Survival Guide" (?), years ago. The kits and sections of the radar absorbative cam o u f l a g u e
netting used by the m alitary services to cover truck ect. The individual pieces of n etting are attached to a set of the older type
of m ilitary fatigues. T he proce ss will require som e tim e but will yeild excellent results.
Agent Blak
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 766
From : S k . C a n a d a
posted 03-17-2001 11:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I t a l l d e p e n d s on if your patte n is appropriate for the te rrain.
you can do wonders with som e fish-net, Burlap and, some die. Does anyone know how they m ake they ghillie suits that hid you
from Night Vision(IR)?
AR-15 Man
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 180
From :
posted 03-17-2001 12:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S p a c e b l a n k e t s a r e s u p p o s e t o o . B u t I t h i n k t h e y a l s o m a k e y o u c o l d e r t h a n t h e a r e a a r o u n d y o u . S o y o u m ight as well be
showing up. W h e n a r m y fatigues are n ew they have ingredients that m a k e t h e m less likely to show up on NVG and Infa-red.
That is why I always wash m y cam o or hunting gear m yself. This is so I can keep those ch emicals in. There is a site called
www.snipercountry.com they are som e pretty se rious people. They are very well educated into this field. They can really help
you. I think they have a whole section on Infa-red and NVG.
SMAG 12B/E5
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 61
From :
posted 03-17-2001 09:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T h e " s p a c e b l a n k e t " i s a s u p p osed to be a deterrant for passive infrared "night scopes" not the cascade vidcon am plifier type
of night visio n e q u i p m e n t T h e gillie suit should aid with the night scope problem. Does anyone know the materials in the
infrared defe ating sm o k e g r e n a d e s / s m o k e s c r e e n i n g d e v i c e s ?
[This message has been edited by SMAG 12B/E5 (edited March 17, 2001).]
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From : G u e s s
posted 03-18-2001 12:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
US patent #6,127,007 Infrared camouflage covering, co vers the making of a "the llie" which is what an therm al im a g i n g
camoflauge ghillie suit is calle d.
I R s c r e e n i n g s m o k e i s c a r b o n o r m etal particles of certain size suspended in air.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them "
Agent Blak
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 766
From : S k . C a n a d a
posted 03-18-2001 02:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NBK2000 can you plz post the url?
thanx
------------------
A wise man once said :
SATANIC
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 237
From : austra lia
posted 03-18-2001 05:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a yowie (ghillie in britain) suit i made for cadets. I used auscam trousers and shirt which have some special m aterial
woven in to them to provide som e protection from IR detection. the material you use to construct a yowie (i used more strips
from a u s c a m s ) should dissapate the heat better, so that theIR signituare is not half as b ig.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From : G u e s s
posted 03-18-2001 06:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go to http://164.195.100.11/netahtm l/search-bool.html and typ e in the patent num ber without the , and choose "patent
n u m ber" and "all years" in the appropriate fields.
------------------
count m agi
New Mem ber
Posts: 1
From :
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-20-2001 11:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not entirely sure, but I think neoprene would be good at reducing therm al signature. You know, like a wetsuit or something As
far as the suit itself is concern ed:
1 se t U.S.G.I. bdu's
12-15 yards of burlap(m ore is better)
1 good pair of scissors or a paper cutter(like they had in school when you were a kid)
get ready to spend alot of tim e on this, as they are never truly finished. start cutting sm all(approx. 1") slits in the bdu's,
starting at th e neck working your way down and out. Don't worry about the bdu's falling apart, buy the winte r weight ones. you
can sew netting on the back of them or just cut the slits.(if you're going to be living on your belly for the next 6 m o n t h s i
suggest the netting.)you only need to cut slits to......let's say a little past the elbow, but h ey it's your ghillie do whatever. Also
don't worry about the spacing of the slits.(the closer tog ether the better though)O nce you finish the slits cut the "jute" into 1"
strip s approx.18-24" long(longer is better)
then just tie the strips into the slits. Once you are "finished" put it in the washer for a rinse and spin then into the dryer for no
long er than 15m in. this will give it that SW AMP THING look. As far as dying it, don't waste your time. Just use spraypaint, it
washes right out and you m ight want to change the colo r later I.E. when the seasons change. The ghillies advertised on the net
cost about $300+ this should run you about $40+som e b l i s t e r s . Y o u c a n a l s o a d d p a d d i n g
for comfort(elbows,knees, che st) if you plan on staying in one place for a long tim e. For
a o n e - p i e c e j u s t u s e s o m e old coveralls O.D.
g r e e n . O h!!!!!! I alm o s t f o r g o t t h e h e a d g e a r .
you might want to sew some netting onto a "boonie" cap, but the slits work just as well, and tie jute to it. Rem e m ber more is
better, and you are NEVER finished with one of these.
EP
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 108
From : U SA
posted 04-27-2001 01:21 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.uscav.co m s e l l s t h e m f o r a b o u t $ 1 0 0
SATANIC
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 237
From : austra lia
posted 04-27-2001 02:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T h e o n l y s e n ible way is to make your own, i wouldn't tru st som e o n e e l s e m a k e , a s you are the only one that can truly make it
with the right colours / texture s that will suit the terrain you plan to use it in. (unless you're willing to pay around 600 - 800
bucks for a customised one.)
Absolutely right about the "yowie is never finished" thing, as you use it you wil find bare patches appearing, and as you use it
y o u s h o u l d g et a friend as 'spotter' to see if he can find you. then fix whatever he m ay ha ve seen - bare patches, wrong
colouring etc. If am de properly, they still don't last long without regular u pkeep, so always check it after a 'm ission' , and never
wash it, the dirt just helps it blend m ore.
lesbianloverjon
New Mem ber
Posts: 24
From :
posted 04-30-2001 05:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
one thing. i would buy one and add m ore onto it. therefore you don't have to worry about tying the first strips onto the clothing
etc. that part is supposed to be a bitch.
stickfigure May 25th, 2003, 06:14 PM

I b o u g h t a b o o k c a l l e d "The Invisible Advantag e W o r k b o o k " b y T o m Forbes from Amazon its got a lot of in fo for do -it
yourselfer's like us. Although it doesn't give any chemicals for m aking it fire proof, which is a big concern for someone in a dry
a r e a . I m a g i n e b e i n g c o v e r e d i n 2 0 - 3 0 p o u n d s o f f l a m in g burlap, talk about a bad day...shit. A couple of sites sell burlap that
is already treated, as I remem ber.
www.bushrag.com
www.ghillie.com
One thing about IR resistant clothes and suits and neoprene is that a set of brand new, unwashed BDU's are pre-treated to be
IR resistant. That's what we are told before we deploy is not to wash our BDU's before we go or have them dry clean ed w/
starch. And to launder them as little as possible while we are there. This also applies to Chem Suits, M-65 jackets and Pants.
Make sure they are new though. And if a person were able to get a set of the new JLIST chem suits with a hood built in and
s u s p e n d e r s t h e y w o u l d h a v e a n a w e s o m e base for a ghille suit and the new suits don't have any of the cha rcoal powder to
screw up your clothes underne ath, although with the extra layers they would be warmer.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Ways to mislead/stop police
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megalomania June 1st, 2003, 12:35 AM

DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 04-23-2001 08:50 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello i whas looking on the site that Sofa king posted about the .22 zippo gun and i saw a file about misleading police dogs,
(It looks pretty ke\/\/l but i need to know it anyway)
They sayd: "Pouring good
strong household amonia on the ground in your tracks ruining their nose
for a couple of hours"
Is this true and are there more thing's you can do?
I know that if you snif Ether you will feel your sell dizzy,If you throw enough of this on the ground would the dog feel dizzyness
and ruined it`s brains for a view second's/minutes?
------------------
DarkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1

sendtosection1@hotmail.com
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
posted 04-23-2001 09:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah if the dog sniffed the ether it would make him "high", but how would you get him to smell it? Maybe pour it near a scrap
of your shirt, or somewhere else on your escape path where your scent is strongest.
My dog once drank half a beer before I caught him, man he was pretty useless that night, he rarely left the floor.
Keep in mind that doggies weigh much less than humans, the dose of anything to get a human high is liable to kill a dog,
they take a K-9's death fairly seriously.
Predator
Frequent Poster
Posts: 141
From: Unknown
posted 04-23-2001 01:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kind of like Hansel and Gretel and their bread crumbs...
Why on earth would you want to leave a trail leading to where you are
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 04-23-2001 03:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes predator i got your point but what if it works you can pour it a view times on some spot`s and because of the strong
Amonium hydroxide smell it can maybe ruine the dogs nose for a short time.(I don`t know how long,or if it works)
And your running away from the cops.
And what is the best weapon to use against a police dog im thinking about pepper spray, Maybe others?
------------------
DarkAngel

shady mutha
Frequent Poster
Posts: 149
From: australia
posted 04-23-2001 05:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to the book 'fugitive' by paladin press the bloke suggests instead of trying to defeat the dog try to defeat the
handler.
Maddoc
Moderator
Posts: 537
From: Dizneland
posted 04-23-2001 05:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find a .32 to the brain works well on most poochies
Actually, I think I saw a file around on confusing dogs? Anyone remember it?
------------------
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-23-2001 07:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I know the one you mean, it had stuff about doubling back, going round in circles and zig-zagging across a river to
confuse the dog.
Mad Dog
New Member
Posts: 32
From:
posted 04-23-2001 08:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very often they com bine d ogs and tracers so don t forg et to fuck up you r tracs so both dog and tracer are co nfused.
By the way I have a book on the subject of dog evasion "The SAS Escape, Evasion and Survival Manual" these book covers the
subject of evasion of dogs and I'll be happy to scan it fore forum members interested in the subject ore fore the forum library.
------------------
If you kill someone and it makes the world a better place, is it so wrong?
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
posted 04-23-2001 10:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ether is commonly used as a drug and is used in drug synthesis. Some police dogs are trained to recognize it, a dogs sense
of smell has something along the line of 60% more sensitivity. So the dog what smell the ether...Whatever else from far away
enough that it wouldnt be effected before it located the ether. I heard of a way to transport marijuana in a 3 layered bad, 1
large bag, a medium bag, and a small bag, The first bag... Black Pepper, the second bag water, and the third bag marijuana,
i heard the pepper temporarily disables or lowers the dogs sense of smell, and the water because it has hard to smells to
penetrate a layer of water.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From: Guess
posted 04-24-2001 03:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted this before but couldn't find it so here it is again.
------------------
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
DaRkDwArF
Frequent Poster
Posts: 258
From: Australia
posted 04-24-2001 05:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.ghilliesuits.com/products.htm
The odour defeaters look ok, but never believe a label, you'd have to test it before trying to use it for E&E and you'd want it to
last several hours, if not 2 or 3 days
sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
posted 04-24-2001 08:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If i get a chance i will scan the book "SAS's guide to escape and evasions."
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
posted 04-24-2001 09:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would suggest fresh cayenne pepper.
It burns like hell in nose or eyes.
Ammonia isnt good here. It kills your own nose too.
-A-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 100
From:
posted 04-25-2001 02:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with jumala, also, ammonia would evaporate too fast. As said before pepper is a good way to mislead dogs.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 04-25-2001 08:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to let you guys know,
I saw ones on TV that a murderer killd 2 people in there own house and neighbours smelled a strong amonia smell when they
walked close by there door,
So they calld the police,When the cops arrived they couldn`t get into the house because the amonia smell whas to strong,So
they calld the fire brigade and they came and opend all the doors and windows and blew all the amonia gas away with there
big ventillators,And when the detective`s came to search evidence they couldn`t find anything because the fire brigade blewd
out all the evidence away
Yes peper can work very good i think,
but when the police is after you (with dogs)and you sprinkel amonia on places there is enough time before it will evaporate,
Maybe alot of little balls (I have now idea at the moment what/which)that have a strong food smell(Fish,meat)can be thrown
away and the dog will smell them and will maybe walk to the wrong place?
------------------
DarkAngel

Digital-Demon
New Member
Posts: 38
From:
posted 04-27-2001 01:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Goto this Forum, has some interesting ideas
http://pub1.ezboard.com/fhoodlumstrackingtrailingandpathfinding
john_smith June 2nd, 2003, 07:52 AM

From http://trackerarchive.tripod.com/ (lots of other good info there also, give it a look).
Myths About Evading Dogs
Hiding under water and breathing through a reed or tube. The best you can hope for is that the dogs will simply track you to
the water s e d g e a n d become con fused. Howeve r, dog h andlers and other tra ck ers accompany d ogs. You have to h e d e e p
e n o u gh so that you can t be seen b y the handle rs (or by the dog itself). But if you are th is deep yo u won t he able to breathe
through a tube for very long. Furthermore, dogs have been known to locate bodies that are underwater.
Sprinkling pepp er or oth er irritant on the grou nd to burn out the dog s n ose as it follows yo ur scent. This has no effect on an
air tracker dog and almost no effect on a ground tracker, The dog will detect pepper and other like scents long before it has
the opportunity to snort any up its nose. In fact, if the dog does snort a little pepper it will likely just make the dog sneeze,
thereby cleaning out its nose and letting it follow your scent more easily. An extremely heavy concentration of pepper on the
ground might keep the dog from finding your scent directly under tile pepper, but any amount of pepper you could
r e a s o n a b l y e x p ect to carry with you s imply won t faze the d og.
Covering yourself in manure or excrement. This does little more than make you smell like a human covered in excrement to
the dog. Your human scent is still present and is not significantly masked by the odor of excrement.
Tying plastic trash bags around your feet and legs to avoid leaving any scent. The only really effective way to cause a dog to
lose your scent is to get off the ground in a car, on a bicycle, or in a boat. You must then travel a significant distance so that
the dog cannot simply reacquire your scent on the ground a few hundred yards away.
Al Nobel June 2nd, 2003, 09:33 AM

Curry is a good choice if you have drugs (especially Marihuana) at home.Police dogs cant differenciate between the curry smell
and Cannabis.
rooster June 2nd, 2003, 01:23 PM

someone i know put mary jane/hash in oranges home from africa. He said the dogs wouldn't be able to smell it. However, he
has diplomatic immunity, so they can't check him anyway...
Is this just bullshit?

Smuggling marijuana in oranges sounds dubious to me. Something like marijuana is so strong-smelling that I'm pretty sure
*I* could smell it through an orange. Also the prescence of a very strong but still legal odour at customs is going to make the
officers extremely suspicious.
I should think the best ways to hide from a dog are swimming down a river or riding a bike/car for a long distance like
John_smith said. Even if you do "burn out" the dogs nose, can't they just get another dog?

As Johnbus has said, whenever the dog or the officers find something too odourfull or with an intense chemical odour they
make an intensive exam of it. In fact one of the best ways of misleading a dog is spreading the odour not trying to camuflate
it.

Indeed. In fact I've heard that a good way to smuggle personal amounts of weed back to the UK from holland on the car ferry
is to have someone smoking a spliff in the passenger seat. They're not going to arrest you for that, and there's no way sniffer
dogs are going to be able to find any hidden in your headrest if the whole car stinks. There is the matter of the customs back
at home though...
john_smith June 11th, 2003, 11:05 AM

A couple of more quotes from the link above:
f. When you first arrive in your area of operations, it is best to move initially in a direction that is 90 to 170 degrees away from
your objective. Carry into the area, in a plastic bag, an object that does not belong to any of the team members. Once you are
on the ground, drop this item of clothing or fragment of cloth out of the bag and leave it on your back trail as you first start
moving. This can confuse a dog long enough to give you more of a head start. Also, if dogs are brought in late, your scent will
be very faint, while this scent will still be strong.
I like this one:D
i. If dogs are very close behind you, moving through water does not confuse them, as your scent will hang in the air above the
water. Moving through water will only slow you down. Also, throwing CS powder to your rear or using blood/spice mixtures or any
other concoctions that you think will prevent a dog from smelling your scent will not be effective on a trained tracker dog; at
the first sign of the substance he will avoid the area. Even if the dog were to smell these substances, they react differently
then humans. This may actually clear the dogs sinuses and nose for him due to the hard sneeze.
1. If a tracker dog is on your trail, do not run, as this will cause your scent to become stronger. By running and leaving a
stronger scent you are allowing the dog an easier trail to follow and less work. Some disagree and say to run the dog into the
ground. You must balance the running the dog into the ground and the dog running you into the ground due to heavy scent
left behind. You may attempt to wear out the dog handler and confuse the dog, but always be on the lookout for a good
ambush site that you can fishhook into. If it becomes necessary to ambush the tracking party, fishhook into the ambush site
and you would normally attempt to wound the handler, NOT the dog.
From www.policek9.com:
In this case, I could easily have tracked all night without ever catching up to the suspects. With the lead time they had, and
the time it takes the dog to work the track at his pace as well as the time involved in getting the dog and handler over various
obstacles, all the suspects had to do to evade capture was to keep moving at a steady pace. Not necessarily a fast pace, just
a steady pace. It was the containment team that picked this suspect up, combined with the efforts of the K9 team, this
incident had a very successful conclusion. But that conclusion only came after a dedicated effort at containment by patrol
members. Without the patrol officers doing their job I could likely have never caught up to the suspects.
When doing perimeter containment remember that your purpose is to force the suspects to "go to ground", making them hide
to avoid detection. To that end, maintain a high visibility. Take up an intersection location where you can observe in two or
three different directions at the same time. Illuminate as much of the area as you can. Turn on all your overhead emergency
lights and make it well known that you are there. A suspect that is coming into your area will often see the emergency lights
and spotlights and instead of breaking out in the open to cross the street, will choose to hide in the hopes of not being seen.
This allows your dog team the best opportunity for a capture
Also, a source I can't seem to find now states that a dog can't track on asphalt unless it's moist, since it irritates the dog's
nose.

What about anise oil?
I heard something somewhere about that making dogs go nuts.
yt2095 June 24th, 2003, 09:58 AM

Kid Orgo,
you beat me to it :) , yes Aniseed balls work in a similar way as Catnip does to cats :)
certainly not a good idea to put your "stash" into it tho as it`ll have the opposite effect, but great if you wanted to get on
Americas Dumbest Criminals :)
i can only imagine that the oil would be so much more efficient than the balls, providing you didn`t get any on you, and could
find a way to deliver it if you were on the run etc...
i could only imagine that even used as a distraction to mislead a dog that was looking for your "stash" would only serve to
incriminate you further tho? else why do it if you have nothing to hide? :)
but running through the woods with a bag of aniseed balls being scatered every few yards certainly couldn`t hurt :)
Gatyo October 30th, 2005, 05:05 PM

I think by having 10-15 ultrasonic gadjets will slow down or eaven stop the dogs. (http://www.uscav.com/prodinfo/images/
9539.jpg) They can be bought for protection against animals especially dogs. The dog must be deaf in order to pass trough
the area and there's no chance of a deaf dog chasing you.
Dr. Chaos September 7th, 2006, 09:46 PM

Elevation is a good counter measure. When I worked at a shipyard, the sailors would stash their goods up as high as possible
in the ship's machinery spaces, in the maze of pipes and wiring. Even if they detected the smell, they could not get close
enough to "alert" the handler.
thiol September 8th, 2006, 09:48 PM

A dog's sense of smell is not comparable to a human's at all. While you might not smell marijuana if you spray a bunch of
lavender air freshener around, a trained drug dog will just smell that: lavender and weed. Any myths of certain smells to cover
up that of what a dog is trained to smell is very unlikely, as they can smell what they're looking for regardless of what odor is
masking it.
The only reliable way would be to make sure no particles are in the air at all, maybe by vacuum sealing it in a bag and then
washing the bag in a solvent (depending on what you're trying to hide).
IronMongrel September 26th, 2006, 06:52 PM

I liked this bit too
When you first arrive in your area of operations, it is best to move initially in a direction that is 90 to 170 degrees away from
your objective. Carry into the area, in a plastic bag, an object that does not belong to any of the team members. Once you are
on the ground, drop this item of clothing or fragment of cloth out of the bag and leave it on your back trail as you first start
moving. This can confuse a dog long enough to give you more of a head start. Also, if dogs are brought in late, your scent will
be very faint, while this scent will still be strong.
But further to that, if you anticipate that you may be tracked by dogs after some event it might be wise to prepare the target
area in a more thorough manner, for instance you might urinate on a peice of your sweatyist work wear and drag it about in
directions you wont try to escape from, thus creating false trails using your own body fluids (nice).
Although I wouldnt recomend leaving such a large peice of DNA evidence in situ afterwards.
In the UK now most hunting on horseback is done like this, they drag a rag with some kind of fox pheromone sprayed on it
accross the fields and the dogs quite happily track this.
A drag trail would certainly leave alot more of your smell than a hopefully light foot fall.
I think leaving very small fragments of tissue that has your scent might be feasible.
A bit like an old fasioned paper chase.
I dont think dogs always track footfall anyway, so if you anticipate being chased by a good nose dog immidiatly,you need to
stay down wind of the dog at all times or as much as you can.
The difficuly is the wind tends to vortice round so putting distance between yourself and the dog is imperative in my view.
Other things I'd say where important, as someone else said, keep a steady pace as much as you can, dont thrash through
undergrowth if you can help it, try not to disturb your surroundings too much if on soft, stoney, or dead wood littered ground.
Dry hard surfaces are good, soft damp ones are bad, with regard to changing their smell after a foot fall, not to mention
holding your scent.
I think when it comes to being chased by dog/s good reconnaissance is the key to escape.
Combine a series of obstacle that are hard for a dog and a man to negotiate, but that a man on his own can manage, even if
that means hiding old/home made ladders to scale things or ropes to descend them. Be creative.
With regard to anise or aniseed I can attest that neither of my dogs are the slightest bit interested in it, but they both really
like hot currys (strange).
But on this vein, a number of old friends of mine where involved in sabotaging fox hunts for a long time, something they used
to make and swear by was a sort of garlic brew, basicly you take a two litre pop/soda bottle almost fill it with water add lots of
fresh mashed or finely chopped garlic and some Marmite (yeast extract) when this stuff ferments and rots down it really stinks
bad. This (filtered) concoction was then loaded into pump up plant sprayers and sprayed accross likely fox runs in an attempt
to distract the hounds.
In all honesty I'm not sure how well this works and as Thiol points out
A dog's sense of smell is not comparable to a human's at all. While you might not smell marijuana if you spray a bunch of
lavender air freshener around, a trained drug dog will just smell that: lavender and weed.
Dogs definitly see the world as a world of smells, they use there eyes just to finish the job or so as not to bump into things
near by, but like any being using its senses, i think they can be given alot of useless and distracting information and thus lots
of strong smelling substances pre sprayed over broad sweeps of your planned escape route may slow down the tracking
process enough to give you the edge.
I have in the past been sniffed out by a large german sheppard, and I can say its very disconcerting when your crouching
behind alot of boxes to come face to face with a really big dog.
In another vein, I often travel by train, and the police here regurlarly do sweeps of stations for drug dealers, stand next to
exits with their super sniffer spanials, it worrys me since I almost always have some pot on me, and I hate the hassle of being
hauled in for a blim of hash, but since I always have a dog with me, they just pull the dog back and I sail on through.
A friend of mine had several kilos of hashish on his coach (that he also lived on at the time) he kept the hashish in his ferrets
cage, also on his coach (I can imagine what your thinking, and I agree) but, he got raided by the local drugs squad, and they
brought a dog, and the dog didn't find the drugs, which just go's to show how much ferrets really do stink.
Ok, thats my first post.
Do i get banned now? =-) (If you continue to fail at capitalizing the letter I when referring to yourself, yes. :) NBK)

IronMongrel, someone I know - a PI that has connections worldwide - hid a copy of his business records from the police inside
a large cage of ferrets. They couldn't get by the ferrets w/o being bit and clawed, so the cage went unsearched. The LEO's
wanted to force him to give info on their cases, but w/o any quid pro quo as the Intel agencies did. By confiscating his records,
they hoped to threaten his business. His Federal contacts made the police back off.
I suspect that to stop a dog cold would require something quite strong in attacking the dog's sence of smell, such as a war
gas. Lewisite is easily made, but can be a double edged sword if you get careless with it.

Perhaps, rather than attempting to use an irritant for distracting the dogs, maybe a micronized anesthetic powder would be
better?
Something like lidocaine, that the dogs would inhale while snorting around, that would numb their nasal nerves, thus making
them unable to smell anything, without any obvious symptoms of irritation like OC would invoke.

Would lidocaine's cousin, cocaine, be effective at numbing a dog's nose? I must admit to total lack of knowledge of the effects
of either substance, other than lidocaine's use in heart attack victims. Cocaine would be more readily available from one's
street corner "pharmacist." I wonder what they do with dogs that fail their urine test?
Combine that with anise oil or seeds to attract the dog, allowing the lidocaine/cocaine to then numb their sense of smell.
nbk2000 October 3rd, 2006, 10:29 PM

I've bought lidocaine for $35/kilo not too many years ago.
How much do you think a kilo of coke would cost? :p
Diabolique October 4th, 2006, 01:40 PM

The key is availability. Cocaine is much more available to the public here than lidocaine. Twenty years ago, I was offered C-4
at $10 a pound, minimum order 20 tons (internaltional arms dealer who worked as a front to several alphabet agencies).
Today, it is no longer available at any price in that quantity.
Lidocaine would be a much better choice, it is not considered to be a drug of abuse, so being caught with it would go a lot
easier on one. What about novocaine from a dentist's office?
festergrump October 4th, 2006, 06:45 PM

IIRC, last time I had some major dental work done (which was about 10 years ago) I asked the dentist how long it would take
for the Novocaine to take effect and if he'd mind waiting just a little bit longer (since they never really wait quite long enough
before they break out the drill and go medieval. OUCH!). His reply to me was they'd long since quit using Novocaine and were
using Lidocaine instead... seems like you might have found another source for Lidocaine there, Diabolique, though I do
remember it being extracted into a syringe from a tamper-proof medical grade glass vial and not mixed from a powder right
there on the spot.
mrtnira October 18th, 2006, 11:19 PM

Three graphics (in two links) showing how not to leave a trail, and the method of circling back and then breaking the trail. All
illustrations are Soviet period diagrams, and the text is in Russian.
http://i11.tinypic.com/49kahr5.jpg
http://i11.tinypic.com/2cn9zxz.jpg
A lot of people really do wonder, "How do they do that?" Military history, military science, and operational art are fascinating
studies. How agents did it during the Second World War, and during the early Cold War is of interest. However, I don't (really,
don't) recommend people do it for real.
Ironhorse November 9th, 2006, 12:55 AM

Ground white and cayenne pepper mixed with alum sprinkled inside the doorways and around in your house will ruin a dogs
ability to smell .Dogs are able to track much better in moist conditions rather than dry.
Scent neutralizer for deer hunting sprayed on the outside of containers to hide the contents ,also help.
InfernoMDM December 21st, 2006, 06:14 AM

I dont know where in the hell some of you got your information about K9 units but you guys are nuts.
Almost nothing will maks a scent. If its strong enough to mask your scent a handler will smell it/dog wont go toward it. THe
handler will move around the smell and pick you back up.
My first experince with a K9 was at 15. I was out in the woods and by some emaculate bad stroke of luck some ladies window
broke out of her car and there were reports of gun shots. Well the gun shot I heard outside of the gated community I lived in
at the time. I was out with my friend on a holiday chaseing deer. Unfortuantly 6-7 months before we had a sniper style
shooting on a highway, much like the DC thing. This was years before any of the terror stuff.
Anyways a security guard passed by us and I ran back in the woods about 30 feet farther then my friend. In the end he got
cuaght and they kept saying they were going to "sick my dog on you!" At this point I started moving. Well luckly that whole
day and most of the night I had been all through the woods. My friend watched the dogs ears pin back and his head go in the
brush. About an hour later the dog came back out and the handler said, "He's either gone or the dog is on fucking crack." My
friend told me that the guys said the dog went all over the place. I assume tracking my daily activities in the woods.
Moral of the story? Don't try to outsmart the dogs nose you can't. Out smarth the handler. This is repeated in real manuals
like the SAS book, experince, and even a few videos on Escape an Evasion.
Time + Distance = Security

Confusing the handler = Safety
Common mistakes:
Hiding in water wont stop you from being found. The dog will smell the oils from your body rising to the surface. Trust me it
has happened before.
Asphalt - Are you fucking kidding me thats the dumbest thing I have ever heard a dog can track you over asphalt I have seen
it several times.
Putting Spices chemicals down - Doesnt work the dog smells it coming and ill react so the handler knows whats going on and
they will move around it much like a obstical picking your scent back up.
By the way the only known way to keep yourself from being easily smelled is by smoking yourself and covering your boddy in
ashes. Unknown to humans fires are rather comman and naturally occuring just about everywhere from woods to cities. Dogs
also smell fires alot. Its a very natural scent. The problem is you need time to burn things, certian plants work better then
others(dont remember which ones sorry) and also you look terrible with ash all over you in the city. Ash also wears off. Its not
fool proof but the dog will have a hell of alot harder time tracking you. Thats how the unibomber(insert name) was able to
mask his trail in the national forest.
defiant December 22nd, 2006, 07:25 PM

I used to be government and have seen dogs and their handlers being trained. There's good and bad.
As its an exceedingly rare event for me not to be carrying a firearm, if pursued there would be the allternative of shooting the
dog and/or handler.
If a firearm is not on hand, and the dog was not attended by its armed master, think about breaking the dogs neck It isn't
difficult. The primary attack dog is a German Shepard - which have power in their jaws but also have weak necks. Face the dog
as it advances, grab the dog around the head firmly when its within reach, and snap its neck. If necessary offer your non-
dominant arm to the hound - jamming it as far back in it's jaws as possible by grabbing the back of its head and pulling
forward onto your arm. A dog can't do as much damage with your arm crammed back in its jaws, and affords you the the
opportunity to snap the fuckers neck.
Carry the dog back to your lair (being as careful as possible not to leave tracks carrying the additional weight), and cook and
eat the eat the hound. Dog is an excellent source of protein, and quite tasty if not overcooked.
festergrump December 22nd, 2006, 08:06 PM
For what it's worth, I'm told many Army manuals state that circling wider and wider circles from the beginning track point then
cutting back to the middle and venturing out in an obtuse angle will work wonders... Just be careful not to meet your tracker in
the middle.

That may be, but still its not difficult to break a dog's neck or shoot its handler.
Food for thought in a society where law and honor has degenerated to the point of being meaningless.
Major Havoc August 17th, 2007, 07:12 PM

Here is some footgae of bloodhounds actually tracking people while using the tricks described in above posts. You get the
picture pretty quick on what is effective and what isn't. Very interesting info. Could come in handy for certain people.
http://rapidshare.com/files/36816028/myth504.part1.rar
Password: chiqega
+++++++++++
From Myth Busters, Season 5, Episode 4

NBK

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Lights Out!
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nbk2000 June 8th, 2003, 01:53 AM

One of the favorite tricks of the piggies is to take out the lights before they do a raid. They do this by either having the
utilities company turn off the power, or by shooting out the lights, prior to making their move.
However, criminals don't have the luxury of having the utility company turn off the streetlights prior to doing a job. Neither is is
advisable to shoot out the lights. Even if you're using a suppressed weapon to do so, there's still going to be the noise of the
glass shattering.
Also, in some high-crime areas, the lights are protected by bulletproof glass, making anything less than a rifle useless in
taking out the lights, requiring you to either ditch a perfectly good weapon, or keep incriminating evidence around.
So, to obviate these problems, I've come up with a very simple solution...a hood.
http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/Streetlight_WM.jpg
A tube of thick denim is connected to a large plastic ring to form a hood, which is slipped over a streetlight, using an
extendable fiberglass (so you don't get electrocuted) pole available at painting suppliers. The end of the hood has a bit of
rope with a large knot on the end. This allows you to hook it so you can pull it off when you're done. :)
No noise, simple as piss to do and, once removed, no evidence of anything having been done to the light.
This is so stupifyingly simple of an idea, yet no one has thought it up till me...I'm such a genius! *pats self on back* :D
Poles will allow you to reach almost any street light, and most lights on the sides of buildings. The wall-mounted lights would
need a different frame, possibly magnetic, but thems the breaks. You might not be able to reach lights like those found in
parking lots, but hey, who's doing anything in a parking lot, eh? ;)
Use would be dictated by the need to prevent being observed, while still having your own illumination means on hand.
Covering a few lights along a residential street would put it in total darkness, prior to a raid/hit/robbery, reducing possible
witnesses and hampering any police response.
Covering a light behind a business would allow you to break in unobserved. And the lack of lighting would greatly reduce any
CCTV's effectiveness in recording your activities. :)
It'd be assumed that you'd be prepared to maximize your darkness advantage by having NVD's.
If you were doing a meet somewhere, you may want to have a cord attached to the hood so you could pull it off to light up
someone if you needed to, like if they got stupid. The sudden presence of light would allow you to more accurately target
them while they're shocked by the sudden lack of protective darkness.

Do they have street lights in LegoCAD too ?
This is a great idea, but what are you going to do when someone sees you put the light out of action in the first place ? To
prevent being ID'd, you have to wear a balaclava, (as per illustration), hence much more 'suspicious activity' than if you just
found a spot with no lights working to do your deal.
I assume tho this is more for situations where you have already chosen your spot, and just need to set the scene a bit better.
Being so quiet, I assume when everyone is asleep (2-4am say) there would be little problem, but I don't know why you'd want
to cover them when there are already no people around. At least it stops anyone seeing what comes next, which could be far
more suspicious.
I would always have a cord attatched, but tied loosely (slipknot) around the post, to be easily accesible to yourself, but no one
who didn't know about it.
How light proof is denim ? It may need 2 (or more) layers. I never imagined you on a sewing machine either..... :p
In most urban areas, NVD's wouldn't be necessary, as there is enough ambient light, if not moonlight, to give enough
illumination for your needs. People lookig outside through windows would be 'night blind' thanks to being inside in bright light,
and not having time to adjust.
I would think a Night Vision eyepiece (monocular ?) would be good, as it's not as cumbersome, and you can switch between it
an normal vision quickly, though it does require the use of a hand, which could be more useful doing someting else.
I think it may be more trouble than it's worth, but an excellent idea to keep tucked away for the occasion when it may be a
perfect solution.
NBK, are these threads testing for your DVD ? I assume you're looking for feedback for a reason such as that.

Most streetlights get insanely hot, proof being the swarm of musquitos flying around it in the summer. Since they can easily
dissipate heat, the manufacturers don't really care about the temperature they reach. A streetlight of a few hundred watt which
has been on for some hours could easily melt your hood.
Arthis June 8th, 2003, 04:18 PM

Without using a kevlar hood, maybe a simple fabric would be enough, in case just damp it. And street light attract mosquitos
due to the light too. So maybe this would be alright. Just try to climb on one to see ;).
Electrocution should not be a problem. If you still need to prevent yourself from anything bad, normally it's isolated as
otherwise, a simple rain would destroy it: you don't put your hood onto the bulb but on the whole street light.
Tuatara June 8th, 2003, 06:52 PM

Heat will definitely be a big problem. All that light you are blocking will also get converted to heat.

could soak the material in KCl solution before use. allow it to dry first though otherwise the risk of electricution could be
greater.
vulture June 9th, 2003, 07:48 AM

Musquitos are attracted to light because during the evolution light meant there was a heatsource related to it. Also, musquitos
don't see very well. The main method they use to detect their "prey" is infrared radiation and carbondioxide emission.
Furthermore they need heat to survive as they are cold blooded animals.
nbk2000 June 9th, 2003, 03:01 PM

No, they don't have streetlights in LegoCAD.
I'm assuming that a person has the good sense to either hood the lights when no one is looking (who's watching at 2AM?), or
to do so when the benefits of the darkness outweighs the risk of being seen doing so.
Besides, nothing says you have to do anything the moment you've finished hooding the lights. You can hood them at 1, and
come back at 3, by which time anyone who'd have noticed would have called the cops who would have shown up if they were
going to. If no piggies show up after a few hours...:)
...I don't know why you'd want to cover them when there are already no people around. At least it stops anyone seeing what
comes next, which could be far more suspicious.
Exactly. No one may be up in a residentail neighborhood at 2AM to see you put the hoods on, but if bullets start flying,
everyone IS going to be up and looking, which is when having blacked out the immediate area would have been a good idea.
And, if nothing dramatic goes down, you remove the hoods and no one is the wiser to what might have been. :)
Jean denim would be more than adequate, since the goal is meet by simply reducing the light that reaches the street
dramatically, even if the glow of the streetlight itself is still visible.
Remember, the hood is an open ended tube attached to a rigid hoop, so heat can escape out the open end. But soaking in a
saturated borax solution, and letting it dry, would prevent burning. Also, the lights can't get too hot if birds sit on top of them.
:)
While then light fixtures themselves aren't electrically "live", they're often mounted on telephone poles alongside powerlines
that ARE, hence you must RTPB "Plan for failure" and assume that you'll touch one of those lines while putting up/taking down
one of the hoods. Would be rather embarassing to have succeeded in a job, only to smoke yourself via powerline, while
retrieving a hood. :(
You'd always want to have NVD available, as well as visible light sources, even if there is ambient skyglow, because there are
plenty of places in a city that are pitch-black. RTPB "Better to have it and not need it...".
Another thought along these lines was to mount one of those multi-million candlepower spotlights on the pole, with a small
cover, and the whole thing is placed over the light sensor of the streetlight. You'd turn on the spotlight by a switch on your end
of the pole once the light was over the sensor, which would trick the streetlight into thinking it was day, turning it off.
Once off, it'd take the light at least 5 minutes to cycle back on, giving you plenty of time to get in, with the lights coming back
on by themselves, without you having to dick around with hood retrieval.
This is just one tool of many that a crim would have in his bag. If you only have a hammer, then every problem tends to look
like a nail. But, if you have a top-of-the-line Snap-On toolset, then you can use the proper tool for the job at hand. ;)
Not everything I post here on the Forum will end up on the DVD, and vice-versa, though some things will.

Wouldn't it be nice to attach a flash charge to the hood on a rope of ca 1m so it's clear from the streetlight. When something
bad goes down, you look the other way, set off the flash charge and run. Enemies would be blinded and the hood destroyed.

Well, I don't really know how do street lights are in the US, but here they use to have a small door in the base (when they are
the floor-planted ones), if you open it you'll find some circuitry then, wouldn't it be easier to desable the circuit directly from
the street light. Btw, the key needed to open them is a straight triangular one but an smaller allen key will do the job as well.
Wall street lights use to have that circuitry in a box planted on the wall and it is shared by some street lights, I'll take some
photographs tohingt if you are interested in it. These ones are only locked by an easy to remove metal clip.
It only takes a couple os seconds to disable each one, and the same to light it again (I am not counting the time it takes
them to bright at full strength).
Anyways your idea could be quite suitable for disabling street cameras.
Sorry again for my chunky English

The heating effect would probably be beneficial to the idea as HPS street lights have thermal cutouts in them. So once it heats
up a bit, the light will turn off completely.
Agent Blak June 26th, 2003, 04:06 AM

Someone mentioned denim melting... Denim is a natural fabric(Cotton) So it won't melt. only Synthetics fabric(Plastics) Melts.
An option for the hoods would be holding them in placewith a type of bow(Single Loop). put a ring on the end that you can pull
to undue the bow. After the job is done you simply use a pol with a hook to snag the ring.
I would think soking it in a Salt Brine, or Fiber Glass Resin would be Ideal. This would assist in the Flame Retarding Aspects of
things...
But is it really necessary to Take the hoods down after..? The way I am looking at it is: You get in Do what you have to do with
out a nich in the plan... Why stick around to get caught taking down the Hoods?
But maybe I missed the point... not having anyone know you were there.
Another option would be paying some Punk kid a Deuce($20) to shootout a street light in the area the week before(have him
shoot it out on the thursday pull the job sunday). City crews oud take a while to get around to repair that.
nbk2000 June 26th, 2003, 03:05 PM

Of course you'd want to take the hoods down when you're done, if at all possible. This way, the cops have no clue as to how
the lights were put out without leaving a mark, nor will you be leaving behind evidence that could connect you to other jobs. If
you leave the hoods, then you're leaving a "signature", thus creating a pattern (RTPB) that'll connect the various jobs
together.
You could pay some punk kid to shoot out the lights. And the same punk kid will rat on you to the cops first chance he gets,
to either save his ass, or get a reward, if you did something high-valued enough, which I'm assuming no one is going to go to
these lengths just to steal a bike. ;)
A-BOMB June 26th, 2003, 05:02 PM

What about a can of black spray paint on a pole tree cutter that it has the pull string branch cutter, attach the can spray the
light and the heat will make the paint dry faster.

Then you would also need one version with paint thinner to spray off the paint afterwards...
That better be something highly corrosive, because spraying is not going to do a good job of removing a hot and dry paint
layer.
nbk2000 June 26th, 2003, 08:47 PM

The paint on a stick idea was the first thing I thought of, having seen something similiar in a monkey-wrenching book, but
then the problems became too numerous.
First, you can't remove the paint, thus leaving evidence of tampering, and that means something suspicious happened, even
if they don't know right away what that something might be. But be sure they'll keep looking till they figure it out.
Second, what's if it's raining? Paint doesn't stick to wet glass.
Third, spray mist will fall down upon your head, leaving microscopic traces of paint on you, linking you to the crime scene. BAD.
Forth, spray paint is often flammable. Nothing like creating a big fireball in the middle of the night while trying to be sneaky to
blow your plan all to hell, eh? :D
A lot of thought has gone into this, and heavy denim hoods are the best thing so far...cheap, easy, no traces, silent,
removable, etc. :)
I also removed that silly suggestion about blowing up a sub-station. :rolleyes: Geez...like THAT isn't going to attract every cop
and fed for a hundred mile radius, to search for the "terrorist" who did it, meaning major pig heat on what would have
otherwise been just another burglary.
Agent Blak June 27th, 2003, 04:26 AM

Blowing a substation would attract attention. knocking out the power doesn't have to involve an explosion. There are power
outages for little or next no reason fairly often.
Being able to knock out the power to a city block would not seem that out of the ordinary... especially at night, very few would
notice.
Go in do what ever it is you want to do get out and put the power on.
NBK2000,
Have you recieved my recent Emails? Plz Email me if not...
kingspaz June 27th, 2003, 10:11 AM

Agent Blak, --> http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2723
mrloud July 18th, 2003, 12:13 PM

I don't think you'll need a multi-million candlepower spotty to trigger the daylight sensor. My 2 D cell maglite does the trick
nicely on some of the roadside power distribution boxes around here.
The advantage of tripping the daylight sensor is that you'll instantly take out a whole street load of lights.
Arthis July 18th, 2003, 04:52 PM

Unfortunately, there aren't many light detection systems to switch on or off the lights. It should be more widely used, as it
allows energy economies, but it's not. In France at least.
MrLoud, your solution is best if possible, anyway you need to be prepaired if you can't do it.
Jacks Complete December 1st, 2003, 02:19 PM

This may sound stupid, but you can try it. Kick the streetlight. It may well go out!
Kids do it all the time round where I used to live. The light just goes out, then kicks back in about five minutes later.
The hood idea is a good one. It would work for cameras and PIRs too. Though anyone looking would know something was up
straight away.
It will be very difficult to actually do this, though. You will need a 15ft + long pole for most lights, and the shear weight of the
denim will bend a light pole, plus you need a way to keep the mouth open and the tail extended. Basic tests have been found
to be lacking, and we used pretty heavy steel wire, about like you would get on a steel wire coathanger, and a mop handle.
We tried it on a 12ft high light and it was really, really hard to get the bag over the length of the light. It kept twisting, and,
even though the wire was quite stiff, it just didn't want to play. The small amount of wind made it even harder!
In all, it took about 25 minutes to "bag" and repeat. It was a real bitch. I think a 30ft pole is going to be impossible. YMMV.
Haggis December 1st, 2003, 06:24 PM

I was going to post the same thing that Jack's Complete did. The streetlights in my neighborhood also go out when kicked.
I've only been able to do it on metal ones however. I've found it best to kick right about where your hip is. It's a good place to
get a good kick on it to disturb the sensor, and good for you so you do not lose too much balance. In my location, the lights
only go out for about 45 seconds. A good, solid kick with your boot heel is usally what is needed to knock one out.
As has happened to me on two occasions, the plastic guard that goes around the light will fall, and will make a large noise and
possibly shattering when it hits the ground. If it is plastic, it will be a generally good idea to attempt to catch it before it falls.
You usually have less than a second, but it is worth it, and has been done.
One idea I had for using this technique, seeing as it would be difficult to use it in a situation longer than 45 seconds, would be
in a chase. Say someone is pursuing you, it would be effective to run towards the light, jump into the air, and kick the pole. In
the sudden confusion of the light suddenly dissapearing, it would be easier now for you to cut either direction and head off.
The kicking manueuver is possible, and easy once you get the hang of it. Just practive the technique for a while, and you will
get a feel for it.
xyz December 2nd, 2003, 04:52 AM

Yeah, kicking a streetlight will cause it to turn off ( the ones where I live stay off for about 30mins when kicked). I think this is
to shut off the power in case a car hits the lamp post (avoiding the chance of the car becoming electrified), or if the lamp post
is knocked over (exposing the wiring to possible rain etc.).
The only trouble is that they usually require a pretty solid kick to make them turn off, and with most streetlights having metal
poles, it can make quite a bit of noise. One of my (less intelligent) friends once got a yelling-at by some angry homeowner
when they heard the noise and walked out to see him booting the streetlight in an attempt to make it go off (he can't kick
very hard and the streetlight refused to turn off).
If you are going for a quick way to kill the lights, a kick may be all that is needed, but for silence, killing the power or using a
denim hood is probably the better way to go.

Perhaps a hit with something like a "dead hit" mallet would work?
If not, scale it up a bit. A sledgehammer and a sound deadening blanket might be just right. That would stop the ringing
vibration, I guess.
Before anyone says anything, a sledgehammer is more use than a bargepole, and more easily explained!
IDTB December 2nd, 2003, 03:44 PM

I believe the hood would work great as long as it didn't include a residential area. I don't know about other people, but if a
street light goes out(or on) during the night I wake and take notice. I'd recommend whatever being done to the street light be
done while it's off, as to not show a sudden change, drawing any attention. Personally the hood idea seems alittle silly. If I
were to be thinking of away to shut them off it'd either be by electrical means or substance means. The worry of leaving
evidence shouldn't be a problem. Eventually people will be alerted to the crime.. Creating a pattern shouldn't be of a worry
either(to me). Showing a pattern and having a pattern should be one in the same. I wouldn't have a pattern, period.
Gotta love the illustrations NBK2000. They a;ways " a lil' sumfin' sumfin' " to your genius posts. ;)
Haggis December 2nd, 2003, 06:32 PM

I neglected to note it up there, but a rubber mallet will work as well. The one I used was a 3 pounder. You must strike it quite
hard, and the mallet bounces back towards you, but once you get the feel for using it, it is quite simple. The only advantages
are that you can get up higher towards the lamp, so you have a better chance of popping the thing, and your leg won't get
tired if you do numerous ones.
xyz December 3rd, 2003, 04:37 AM

The only advantages are that you can get up higher towards the lamp, so you have a better chance of popping the thing, and
your leg won't get tired if you do numerous ones.
What do you mean by "popping the thing"? And why would you want to reach up higher? I thought that the sensor for these
was in the bottom because that's where a car would hit it.
nbk2000 December 3rd, 2003, 11:16 AM

Interesting, that, about the lights going out when hit. However, that won't work with lights mounted on wood utility poles, nor
concrete poles, as are common around my area.
A "Dead Blow" hammer is what you're referring to. I don't know if they make them in sledgehammer size, but I'm sure
someone somewhere does. Even so it'd not be silent to slam a hollow metal pipe with one...just quieter.
If one knew what the sensor was that tripped of the lights, it might be possible to target it directly, by vibration/shock/sound/
etc, in a quiet and stealthy manner. If the lights stay out for under a minute, that's not really helpful, though a half-hour
blackout would be much more useful. :)
As for the pole and hood...the poles I'm talking of collapse to under 8' in length and are commonly used for painting. I doubt
a cop would think anything sus' about an extendable pole at 3AM, especially if it was found in the back of a pickup along with
some paint cans, rollerbrushes, and denim tool sacks ;) when compared to a burglar tool like a sledgehammer...especially in
a commercial district.
The wire you're using for your hoods is far too flimsy. I'm talking about steel hoops found at the hardware store. Think of a
length of steel rod turned into a circle and the ends welded together. That's what I'm talking about. You can barely flex them,
let alone twist them up.
Silly, eh? Humph...genius is so rarely recognized in its own time. :p
Haggis December 3rd, 2003, 06:36 PM

I use the word 'popping' as a general purpose word for getting the job done, and the like. I liked the term 'popping a lock' so
I carried it over to 'popping a det' and it generally means, for me, doing it, whatever it is.
At least around here, the sensor is up top, and only trips well when the top has a jolt. It feels like you have to 'knock' the
filiment out, as from a sharp motion. It works better for me the higher up you hit it because you are closer to the sensor, and
you have better 'leverage' on the pole.
Another technique is to find the main sensor for the street. Sometimes the pole will have an individual sensor, which would be
on top of the light, and other times an entire street will light up when one sensor is tripped. This one sensor for the whole
block is usually up on a bit on the pole on a (usually) green box. I've heard stories of guys at college campuses finding the
sensor and rigging a cheap flashlight up there. * Poof* out go the lights.
Jacks Complete December 3rd, 2003, 09:08 PM

Here's an idea.
If it is a light sensor, you could use a cheap laser diode to beam ten suns into it. This would be barely visible, too, and silent.
NBK2000,
yes it is a good idea, but the sledge hammer wouldn't be amiss in a truck full of tools, either, and it is dual use, as it opens
doors too.
I wasn't thinking of much longer than 8', as a bargepole is about 10' long. Mind you, I wasn't thinking of the truck, either.
Also, I don't think we have wooden poled lights in the UK, except the odd very rare one. Even concrete ones have been mostly
replaced with standard grey steel... Must be nice to have the variety!
IDTB December 4th, 2003, 03:19 PM

Around here(new england) the street lights are mounted on steel poles, but on side streets and whatnot they're actually on
the telephone poles. When you people say wooden polls are you refering to 'wooden poles' or the telephone poles?
AsylumSeaker December 4th, 2003, 05:56 PM

All the streetlights around here are mounted on telephone poles and have thick plastic covers so we can't break them with
rocks anymore. This hood idea seems like it would work but also seems a bit impractical. I think I would rather just hide in the
open lights. Noone expects it.

If it is in a very dark area and the only source of light is the street light then when you put it out how are you supposed to
see? You should definately add some fishing line to it and have it laying on the ground with a little piece of tape on the end
(So you can see it) and well your running by pull it off and run with it or drive away with it.
blindreeper January 11th, 2004, 07:13 AM

My friends and I have proven that Australian street lights arn't all that shatter proof after all. A couple good shots with a sling
shot and they cover was gone. I agree the hood idea seems impractical. If you have to flee the job undesireably the hoods will
still be there for pigs to investigate. Then any futher jobs with hoods they will know its the same guy = bad.

Regarding the daylight sensors, how long will that keep them off? Wouldn't they sense darkness and turn back on as soon as
you remove the beam of light from them? I don't think it would be practical to leave a light directed at the sensor since the
point is to eliminate the light. Unless of course the sensor is in a different location, like the end of the block.
The though of having to flee in a hurry and having the hoods still up does seem like quite a concern. But isn't this already a
concern with any tools one would use to pull off a crime? Maybe you could perhaps have a line attached from the hood to your
vehicle in such a manner that if you drive off in a hurry it would pull down. But then again it looks a little suspicious driving
down the street dragging anything. Maybe using automatic winding fishing line? I believe I've seen fishing poles that are
powered to automatically bring in the lure.
xyz January 12th, 2004, 06:46 AM

Dimmujesus, light has to be constantly shining on the sensor for the street lights to remain off.
You simply put the torch right up against the sensor so that no light escapes (like when you put a torch bulb end down on the
floor).

There is still the propblem of the hood melting. Another thing is if the light is out the houses around the light would be curious
and look out there window to see what is wrong with the street light, they will do so and find a hood attached onto it, now most
of them would just shrug it off and not think of it but there is bound to be a soccer mom to call the company or come outside
and have a close up look at it find the string and pull it (causing the hood to some off) then your cover would be blown in the
middle of the job. Just a thought.
lager lad January 14th, 2004, 07:09 PM

What if you line the inside of the hood with a reflective surface (aluminum foil or those shiny emergency blankets?) and
slipped it on so far that the light from the light itself triggered the daylight sensor, assuming there's one on the top?

What's wrong with simply cutting the wires? The metal lamp poles in my area have a "service hatch" that's fixed only by two #7
hex bolts. OTOH, I've heard somewhere that the line current is monitored and if it drops too low the company will send a crew
to investigate. Can anyone confirm this?
DimmuJesus January 15th, 2004, 03:55 PM

I don't think there is a fire hazard to the denim. However a Kevlar or fire retardant material could be improvised if one sees
the need.
As for what's wrong with just cutting the wires, I believe the point of the hood is to be able to remove evidence of tampering.
Isn't there also a huge risk of getting shocked if you do this anyway?

Cutting the wires is not a good idea for said reasons (electrocution, leaving traces and possible investigation of power
problem). Plus unscrewing the thing and all that. Might as well just smash the light if you're gonna do that. For this, besides a
slingshot maybe a pellet gun or pumped up bb gun would be good if there is a steel cage on the light to aim around (do they
ever bother with those?). Or perhaps a (possibly pumped up) paintball gun shooting steel balls. At least then they may just
think it was some kids screwing around.
Certainly leaving evidence behind is a hard thing to get around. Of course one would have to make sure that if stuff did get
left it wouldn't give any help. It's possible that after one had to flee the scene in such a way the hood idea would be
something you just can't use any more. I think IDTB is right though, if you really want to not leave remenants of a pattern you
simply can't have one - or at least in this example. The Man will probably rather quickly establish that the lights all go off
before all these crimes happen, no matter which method is used. Maybe that's too little to worry about.
I think the best that one can do with the hoods is to have them easy to take down, which is rather easy. Just attach a small
rope to the tip of the hood, and pull on it to take the hood off. Tie the end off with a quick bow above head level, to the pole,
to avoid a dangling rope which a passerby might decide to yank on. As long as there is nothing to catch the hoop or denim
then it should slide right off when needed.
If only you could find a spray paint that degraded, or falls off within 24 hours or so (maybe even an hour). Might be possible,
for example the adhesive could oxidize over time(especially since the lamp makes it warm). Once you have your special paint
you can buy portable aerosol cans that will spray whatever you want. Then attach this to a pole and spray away.
BTW: I just had a funny, if impractical, idea. Make the denim (cotton) hoods (maybe paint them for extra opacity). But first
nitrate the cotton enough so that it burns quietly and sort of quickly (not violently). Then have a small little cheap electric
timer to light them in half an hour (or whatever). You can disable the electric timer if all goes well :). The street lights are
sodium so probably not hot enough to light them (?). If you could get NC into a flexible sheet and use that instead of denim,
even better (except for plausible deniability).

The streetlights probably would get hot enough, NC ignites at a very low temperature, something like 150C IIRC.
atlas#11 January 16th, 2004, 11:47 PM

o.k. correct me if i am wrong but microwaves are reflected by metalic surfaces, if you kney about how far away from the bulb
you were then you could use a magnatron and a concave metalic surface(old sat tv dish, ect...) and figure the math so the
beam of microwaves focused within about 6-12" you would essentaly be firing a large ammount of energy in to a thin tungsten
filament. this should fry it. wright? power inverters are easy to come buy and you can go to good will and get an old microwave
oven for next to nothing and a car batery and inverter shouldn't be too hard for you resoursfull fellows. I will try this whenever i
get an old microwave oven. any thoughts?
-------------
These are your last posts in lower case which I'm going to approve. I warned you before. All further ones will be deleted
without notice.
Rhadon
O.K. Sorry i guess i didn't notice that last time.

I've got a new toy...:D
Pictures to come shortly.
Skean Dhu December 13th, 2004, 12:49 AM

Atlas, the standard 100 watt variety anyways, reacts to microwaves by a plasma of sorts being formed when the electrons in
the low pressure inert gas inside the light bulb become extremely "excited". After aproximately 25 seconds the plasma melts
the glass and atmospheric(sp?) pressure impoldes the bulb resulting in shards of glass going everywhere.
Or atleast thats what I think happens, I cold be wrong.
The first 24 seconds are full of crazy colors though.

It's amazing, the things that fall off of utility trucks. ;)
It gets to almost 40' fully extended.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Igniters
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View Full Version : Igniters
Zappy100 June 13th, 2003, 03:40 AM

Hi there,
follo wing is a piss-easy m ethod to m ake electric igniters:
Material needed
- Acetone
- 5 ping-pong balls
- nichrom e wire (from hairdryer or rocket igniters)
- isolated wire 0.6 m m d i a m .
- s o m e black powder (extract from firecrackers or make your own)
Step 1 - Mak e NC (nitrocellulose laque)

- buy 5 ping-pong balls
- cut them in to pieces and completely dissolve in 150 m l of Acetone
- this gives a thick laque
- take half of this laque and thin with m ore Ace tone until you have consistence of m ilk
Step 2 - prepare wires

- take 2 pieces of wire (0,6 mm - length 160 m m ) a n d r e m o v e i s o l a t i o n 2 - 3 m m o n o n e e n d
- drill them together so that the end of one wire is slightly shorter than the end of the other
- take a short piece of nichrome wire a nd drill around th e 2 wires (starting at the un-isolated wire o ne downwards until it comes
in contact with the un-isolated wire two)
- now you ha ve a nice bridge
Step 3 - preparing primer

- t a k e t h e t h i n l a q u e p r o d u c e d i n s t e p 1 a n d m ix with black pwder (use film can) until you have a kind of greyish thick liquid
Step 4 - prim ing

- now dip your bridge into the primer p repared in step 3 until the nichrom e wire is completely covered
- allow to let dry
- when dry dip into the thick laque (produced in step 1) and allow to dry
Now you have a com pletely waterproof and well working electric igniter. Just stick into your detonator until com ing into contact
with your primary exp losive, crim p a n d s e a l a n d y o u r d o n e !
This igniter should work with a sim ple 9 V batte ry. :D
Arthis June 13th, 2003, 06:08 AM

A 9V battery ? This is pretty lo w. Is nitrocellulose laque + BP sen sitive enough for that ?
btw, does that m ix really explodes, or would it be better with AP ?
Zappy100 June 13th, 2003, 06:29 AM

That m ix is not to explode but to cause a detonation of your prim ary in the detonator. My description is for an electric IGNITER.
W hen using a thin nichrom e wire used for m odel rocketry ignition a 9V battery should be sufficient.
Titanium June 13th, 2003, 07:42 AM

Hey that's kind of old ... You b etter search before you post!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Lathe Rifling Machine
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View Full Version : Lathe Rifling Machine
Bitter June 13th, 2003, 11:41 AM

This is theoretical. Comments welcome.
SMAG 12B/E5 June 14th, 2003, 02:25 AM

While your design is probably workable, there is a rack and pinion design that is more usable. Guy Lautard has a website that
offers an excellent machine that is capable of deep hole drilling, reaming and rifling a barrel. With attention to details, you
can produce a "match-grade" barrel from solid bar to finished barrel in an average of four hours. I purchased Lautards's
package of two VHS tapes and ten or twelve pages of printed drawings and instructions.
Bitter June 14th, 2003, 02:08 PM

Glad you think so. Cheapness and ease of building was my priority, though. Do you have the URL for that guy's website ?
The DreamWeaver June 18th, 2003, 10:38 AM

http://www.lautard.com/ - And Bitter when are you going to sort out that huge picture?
kingspaz June 18th, 2003, 11:33 AM

'when are you going to sort out that huge picture'
i like it the way it is. gives a bit of madness to this place.
zaibatsu June 18th, 2003, 02:44 PM

I had an idea for a rifling machine a while ago, however this one would negate the use of a lathe, which can only be a good
thing. Basically it was designed to be operated by hand, and consisted of the cutter, and a few gears. It's hard to elaborate
without the luxury of a diagram. There would be a handle attatched to a gear, and turning the handle would turn the gear. The
teeth of this gear would mesh with a "track", and so turning the handle would turn the gear which would make it move along
the track. At the same time, there would be a set of gears connected to the first one, which would make the cutter turn at */
foot, the ratio being determined by gear size. As the gear advances, the cutter is turned, cutting the rifling in the barrel. That's
a little hard to understand, but I'm sure you can figure it out if you think about it for long enough :)
Bitter June 20th, 2003, 03:30 PM

What do you mean, sort it out ? It's good enough just to show the basic idea. It's not exactly a 10MB bitmap is it ?
zaibatsu June 21st, 2003, 09:26 AM

I think he's talking about your avatar, which he has no right to try and pressure you into changing - the only people with that
right are Mega and NBK. I like it anyway :)
yt2095 June 21st, 2003, 10:58 AM

for a short barrel only, i can see a cheap and nasty way you could accomplish this, although the cutting head would have to be
your own design.
have you seen the old "automatic screwdrivers" the sort that you pushed down on and the screwdriver bit would turn on
compression?
if you made or had something similar, make your barrel a little over the required length (a good idea anyway for finishing
purposes) on the one end you could weld 2 bars across the bore, just wide enough for your turning shaft to pass through with
little play.
push that right the way through the barrel till it emerges at the other side, then attatch your cutting bit, a gentle scoring for
1`st pass should be fine, then gradualy making the cut deeper with each pass, as if your doing barrel cleaning.
cut the welded end off when complete and finish the product.
THAT is about as cheap and nasty as i can think of and still be workable with patients.
as for a long barrel. i`m out of ideas at the moment.
All the best :)
zaibatsu June 21st, 2003, 01:22 PM

Hey, just had an idea, how about etching rifling into the bore? Just thought that isn't a method I've seen mentioned before
(other than EDM) but I bet there're reasons against it :)
However, it would mean you didn't have to keep shimming the cutting tool etc etc - lets get thinking!
For a short barrel (IE pistol) I don't really think you need to worry about rifling it, anything over 15-20yards could be done
better with a smg anyway.
The DreamWeaver June 22nd, 2003, 08:01 PM

Regarding the avatar. I simply implied that although it may add a little madness like kingspaz suggested, I believe it to throw
the "cleanliness" affect to the whole forum out the window. As it distorts the page layout.
Would it not be best if everyone had a set limit to the size of the picture? (In pixels of course, otherwise people might get
confused.)
But, alas - only a suggestion.
stickfigure June 22nd, 2003, 09:42 PM

I like your new Avatar, your old one of Alex was cool also. I can only hope to become a senior forum member and have my
own, someday... I can only think a huge Barney/Godzilla parody stomping on Cop Cars would be somewhat as cool.
Bitter June 24th, 2003, 11:18 AM

I'm glad you think so.
akinrog January 20th, 2004, 08:23 PM

Regarding hand rifling, I found a website via google wherein the Author (with an alias Fatman or his name I don't know) does
hand rifling of the barrels. He claims that he does this for several years by means of a machine called "Tobacco Juice Annie".
The site also includes a short video with low resolution showing this man doing hand rifling with his Tobacco Juice Annie. The
links for the web site is http://www.midiowa.com/toadhallrifleshop/rifling.htm and for the vide http://www.midiowa.com/
toadhallrifleshop/Business%20Card/Rifling.mpg.
Does anybody have the book advertised on the website? What kind of mechanisms and designs are used? In addition the
author claims that the machine is seabolt design wooden rifling machine. Anybody has information about what a seabolt
design is?
In addition, I also found a web site containing an article about the barrel steels, rifling methods (namely cut rifling, button
rifling and hammer rifling). Although the first two requires a rifling machine of some sort the last one only requires a tungsten
carbide mandrel containing grooves and landings thereon corresponding those grooves and landing inside a barrel. The last
method seemed (at least to me) to be feasible enogh to be made by an ordinary workshop.
The barrel blank is somewhat shorter by 30% of the intended barrel length and is drilled just to house the tungsten carbide
mandrel and after inserting the mandrel it is hammered by means of a method called rotary hammering. After rotary
hammering the tungsten carbide mandrel cuts its imprints inside the barrel and barrel length attains its regular length due to
hammering. As this method is simpler than a barreling machine, I think anybody who may obtain a tungsten carbide mandrel
containing corresponding grooves and landings thereon might forge a barrel in this way. In addition the article claims that (I
saw this claim in many other gun related site), the barrels produced in this manner is highly wear resistant, since it was
designed to produce wear-resistant barrels used for heavy machine guns which fires several round per minute during WWII.
Links to this article is http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm.
Now my plan is : obtain a tungsten carbide smooth rod, have it machined by a proper workshop to contain the spirals on it and
use this as a mandrel for forging by hand. I am very well aware that machinening a tungsten carbide mandrel is a very hard
(impossible?) for an ordinary workshop. And spiral must have an angle of approximately 15 degrees. And drill a bore on 410
steel blank which is (as article suggested) somewhat shorter than the intended barrrel by 30%. Put the mandrel inside this
bore and forge it by hand hammering. I am sure hand hammering will be also a hell difficult.
In addition, article states that the barrels produced in this manner also contain radial stresses which are hard to eliminate.
Anybody knows a good article source of information to eliminate such stresses?
I hope this information is useful.
daysleeper January 21st, 2004, 12:07 AM

Here is an Idea I've been thinking up for a not so complicated way of rifling a barrel. This may be a little out of place
but I think it fit's here.
If one takes a piece of sheet metal say 1/16 inch thick and cut the rifling on one side of the metal while it was flat then
use the proper sized round stock to roll this barrel liner into the desired shape, you would have a tube with the rifling cut inside
of it.
This is not strong enough for a barrel obviously, but then you have a a piece of larger tubing the diameter of a standard barrel
bore out the inside to accept the rifled tube and either silver braze it for 22's and such or plug weld the sleeve from the
outside in for larger more powerful rounds.
The outside tube would be reamed for the chamber, just slip in your rifled tube and go from there, there are some details to
be ironed out I'm sure, but i think this could work.
Laying out the rifling in a flat format onto the sheet metal is the hard part, I guess taking an actuall barrel and cutting it open
and flattening it out would give better insight.
What do ya'll think?
john_smith January 21st, 2004, 04:26 AM

Hmm...what about letting a workshop make a button blank - basically a rod with a slightly thicker section in it - and etching
grooves into that instead of the barrel itself? Sorta like Marlins or (yuck) Hi-points "mini-rifling", with about 10-12 small lands
and grooves. A button rifling machine itself seems rather easy, an OTC, hand operated hydraulic press might even do.
akinrog January 21st, 2004, 06:24 AM

In my opinion having a workshop make a button blank is a brilliant idea when you consider the hammering method I
mentioned. However in this case SWIM must have such workshop machine more than one buttons, each of which has slightly
larger than a previous one. You start with the smallest button to rifle the bore than proceed the larger ones to complete rifling.
However, I saw some difficulties with these approach :
1. How SWIM must achieve regular twist using a hand operated hydraulic press during button rifling. In addition (in my humble
opinion) it will be very hard to keep the barrel blank steady while SWIM is driving the button inside the bore. It will also be
very hard to achieve a proper twist while pressing the button in the bore.
2. Since t will be really difficult to cut riflings inside the barrel with a single run, SWIM must have more than one buttons to cut
rifling. So there rises another problem to maintain and follow the previous rifling grooves inside the barrel. Assume that SWIM
cut the riflings inside the barrel using the first (and smallest) button. When it is the larger one's turn, how SWIM shall achieve
the exact pattern (i.e. twist) during process?
What I trying to say, button rifling shall also need some devices / mechanisms to assure right twist and such devices /
mechanisms must also ensure accurate repeatability.
Bert January 21st, 2004, 12:54 PM

Are any of you all familiar with how backwoods gunsmiths rifled their hand forged barrels? Kind of similar to yt2095's
screwdriver method, but hand made and wooden. Worked fine for BP rifles, sub minute of angle accuracy at 100 yards was
obtainable with careful work.
Jacks Complete January 21st, 2004, 06:57 PM

Guys, I have no idea what you mean by Bitter's image. I can't see anything, and his post count shows as N/A, no profile
buttons, nor email, etc.
Anyway, back on topic:
A button rifleing cutter would be pretty easy to make, or have made. Just ensure that the cutting edges are at the right angle
so that the whole thing "self taps" as it cuts through. To get it through, I would suggest making a high powered hydralic press
with a basic bearing, (though I don't know how well that would stand up to the pressure). Use lots of lube, in through the open
end.
As the limit of travel was reached, the jack would be reset to the bottom, and a further length of rod would be introduced, and
so on, until the barrel button was through.
Any thoughts?
Someone on the boards a few weeks ago suggested a hydraulic press as a project. I am trying to find the highest load bottle
jack I can. I know that 6 tonnes can be had, but have only seen 1.5 ton to date.
xyz January 21st, 2004, 09:59 PM

Jack's Complete, they are talking about his image (avatar) because this thread was made back in June 2003 when Bitter was
still a moderator.
IIRC the image in question was an evil looking Thomas the Tank Engine about to ram a police car.
akinrog January 22nd, 2004, 02:17 PM

I found the following link for hand rifling of the barrels. The article describes how barrels are rifled in past through so called
rifling benches. The article contains a simplified drawing of the rifling mechanism and describes how rifling is made. But the
method is quite complicated (especially at this time of a laborious day of working), so I could not figure out how the method is
exactly carried out. However someone with greater knowledge of English and mecahnical engineering, may figure it out more.
The link is http://blackpowderonline.com/JAN03BrrlHdWyPt5.htm

IF the link changes, I also saved the html file as a single file that I can attach it to message.
Regards
Wow this site is a gold mine.

I found another article containing info about rifling methods. But don't try to enter the site directly. It only blossoms to good
ol' google.
The link is http://www.blackpowderonline.com/DEC02BrrlThHdWyPt4.htm.
Maybe someone with good hacking skills may obtain all useful information from this site.
Regards,
akinrog January 22nd, 2004, 04:09 PM

Sorry for posting very frequently. Since I found several items on the rifling process and the mod of this forum is slow for
moderating my posts (not due to his slowness but due to my rapidness), but I collected some links about the rifling and
wanted to share these links with you. Since one of the web links contains a rifling method which excited me a lot I could not
wait for my previous post being moderated and posted here. The web link which excited me a lot contains a method called
electrochemical rifling. This process is described as follows (I am citing it here since I shall post a few links, I think somebody
may miss this process) :
Quote :
An electrode (cathode) that has metal strips in the shape of the rifling is placed in the barrel (anode) and the the assembly is
submerged in a salt solution. An electric current is applied and the electrode is moved down the length of the barrel and
twisted to create the spiral shaped grooves. As the current travels from the barrel to the electrode metal is removed by
electrolysis thus forming the grooves in the barrel. This process creates the rifling in the barrel very quickly and does not
require consumable tooling.
Unquote :
Now the links :
http://www.blackpowderonline.com/ARCHIVES1.htm (this is the main link of the articles of the site which I referred to as a
"gold mine".)
http://www.snipercountry.com/articles.htm (I could not have time to review entire articles but one of them is very interesting
(about rifling))
http://www.blackpowderonline.com/AUG02Brrlthehrdway.htm (this is one of the links that "gold mine" site includes)
http://www.blackpowderonline.com/Oct02BrrlhrdwyPt2.htm (this is part two of the previous one)
http://www.blackpowderonline.com/NOV02BrrlHdWy.htm (this is part three of the previous one)
http://www.blackpowderonline.com/DEC02BrrlThHdWyPt4.htm (this is part four of the previous one)
http://www.blackpowderonline.com/JAN03BrrlHdWyPt5.htm (this is part five (which contains basic concepts of an (ancestor?)
rifling machine))
http://www.blackpowderonline.com/FEB03BrrlthHdWyPt6.htm (this is part six)
http://www.armoryhill.com/graphics/Williamsburg021.jpg (this is the very image of the primitive (?) rifling machine)
http://www.firearmsid.com/A_bulletIDrifling.htm (this is the link which contains electrochemical rifling process which excited me
a lot)
I found another link regarding electrochemical rifling. In this article the salt I cited above is stated to be Sodium Nitrate.
Anyway please find the link below :
http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/ecr/electrochemicalrifling.htm
I hope this info is useful for forumites.

Regards
akinrog January 23rd, 2004, 08:00 PM

Since this new bit of info can be missed by the forum members I need to send a new post. I found on United State Patent and
Trademarks Office web site a detailed description of a electrochemical rifling method.
Patent number is 4,690,737. Here is the link to that patent : http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?

Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-
adv.htm&r=10&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=ptxt&S1=(electrochemical.TTL.+AND+rifling)&OS=ttl/electrochemical+and+rifling&RS=(TTL/
electrochemical+AND+rifling)
Hope this bit of info is useful.

Regards
JoeJablomy February 1st, 2004, 04:09 AM

Personally, ECM looks the best to me. Hammer rifling requires very serious equipment-it's probably impossible to do by hand,
and the mandrel would probably break. Anyway, you have to extract it after the rotary forging process, and that requires a
hydraulic pull/press. Cut rifling is next in the amount of infrastructure, and button rifling requires both less infrastructure and
less skill in operation than the other two, but still needs a hydraulic cylinder at least as long as the barrel you want to rifle, and
in my opinion that would be several feet because anything shorter or smaller should just be bought. To be clear, though,
buttoning is not a cutting process. Cutting with a single, specially made cutter is called broaching. A button actually presses
grooves into the steel. Speaking of which, the barrel has to be seriously stress relieved after buttoning, unless you want it to
crack down its length. For more on buttoning, look here:
http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/default.htm (sorry about the lack of html)
Anyway, for ECM or 'ECR,' I guess all you'd really need is a big salt tank, maybe with pump, a low voltage transformer, some
kind of helical guide setup, and the electrode. You could probably make the helical guide out of the same piece of plastic as
the electrode, and use an alignment tube/fitting attached to one end of the barrel. With some forethought, you could hold the
barrel vertical and feed electrolyte under regulated pressure from the bottom. Instead of a really big trough/tank, you would
only need a sump to set the bottom in. (On sceond thought, this would result in a really Tall aparatus - 12-14 ft. for a
reasonable 20mm barrel)
john_smith February 2nd, 2004, 04:37 AM

anything smaller or shorter should just be bought
Yeah, you lucky bastards in US...For the rest, I really think the aforementioned buton rifling method might work, at least for
handguns. Though, ECR seems even more appealing now. Is it actually necessary to have a moving electrode and guide or
could you use a large fixed one going through the whole barrel? Of course it would lower the current density and make the
process slower, but there'd be no need for a mechanism driving the thing down the barrel at a slow constant speed.
akinrog February 2nd, 2004, 08:29 AM

In my opinion, moving (rotating) electrode thing is a misleading clue to create confusion on the process, although I am not
very well sure about it. If you look at the patent link above, you shall notice it mentions no moving (rotating) electrode.
But, I noticed another difficulty with ECR. :confused:
When I searched ECM over the net, many sources state that several thousand of Amps needed to perform ECM. This migth
most probably prove difficult (impossible?) for a homeworkshop enthuiast, since I don't see any way to find a DC power supply
which is capable of feeding several thousands Amps. But the method states that this setup is capable of machining a part
within a few seconds so the powerfull power supply may serve to this end. Then if you have a less powerfull power supply then
you may have to apply current to the electrode setup for a longer period of time. (Just a thought since I have no means to
test this.)
Now from what I compiled, SWIM devised a small plan which SWIM may be capable of doing and achieving rifling inside the
bore. Assume that you have a power supply of the sort I mentioned above and a barrel blank (short one for a handmade
machine gun or SMG), a strong pipe etc. which is properly drilled, reamed, lapped, etc. to the correct dimensions and with
adequate wall thickness.
materials needed :
- a good power supply capable of feeding enough amps,
- a barrel blank preprocessed to the required dimensions,
- a plastic tank, basin, etc. capable of harboring the entire blank and some more things,
- cables with adequate cross sectional area,
- a submersible pump
- a soft hose
You simply fill a plastic tank capable of harboring entire length of barrel with sodium nitrate (chloride?). Then you use a
modified lab stand and clamp to keep it fixed in the saline tank. Then you take a brass rod whose outer diameter is slightly
smaller than the bore of the barrel. Draw three sets of spiral lines with a marker along the length of the brass rod with the
method which is referred to in one of the articles contained in the goldmine site I mentioned. Then apply (electric) insulation
tape on the brass rod, using the lines as guides for spiral form, cutting the breadth of the tape as required and trying to
create quite tiny exposed brass surfaces representing the grooves inside the bore of the barrel. Apply adequate number of
layers of insulation tape over the brass rod to ensure it tightly fits inside the bore and also allows enough electrolyte flow
through channels created when you fit the brass rod setup inside the bore. It might be very proper IMHO to drill and tap a
small hole at one end of the brass rode to fix a screw to connect the negative lead of the power supply.
Now you take a soft hose which is capable of receiving entire outer diameter of the barrel blank. You insert the tight fitting
brass electrode setup inside the bore (Important, the brass rod setup must not be very tight lest you may disturb the grooves
created by the soft electric insulation tape thereby creating irregular lands and grooves or nothing at all!). After insertion of the
brass rode setup, you insert the barrel blank in the soft hose and connect other end of the soft hose to a pumping setup
(which I thought simple submersible pumps are suitable for this purpose) to pump saline solution through the tiny channels
between the barrel blank and brass rod with spirals over it. Pumping necessary for removing the oxides removed from the
bore.
It is now necessary to immerse entire setup (barrel with positive lead, brass electrode setup inserted which is connected to
negative lead) inside the the saline tank.
Thereafter you apply current to brass electrode and blank barrel (strong pipe?) and thus metal is removed from the inner
surface of the barrel bore to create grooves while pumping the saline solution inside the barrel.
But since we are using a makeshift power supply, it might be necessary to experiment with this setup to achieve correct
amount of metal removal.
What about this idea? I would like to have your feedbacks on this and please fill the gaps since this is only a theoretical plan.
JoeJablomy February 2nd, 2004, 11:03 PM

I haven't read the whole patent, but yes it does talk about a mobile cathode. A number of other net sources I've seen talk
about moving electrodes. For instance, some shop machines entire blisks (bladed discs) for gas turbines by a single step ECM
process. This involves removing vast amounts of metal between the blades, and the electrode obviously has to move down
and twist while etching those spaces. I think this also explains why thousands ov amps are needed -that thing must have
multiple square feet of electrode area, and is etching at a very fast rate. An electrode to work on 2" of the bore of a barrel at
once would need much less current.
Incidentally, I've been thinking, and it seems to me that a fast etching process is going to be better, thus the travelling
electrode, because slower processes would allow ions to be drawn to/from areas you don't want etched away. Don't know how
clear that is, but what I mean is that if the electrode is only a few inches long and a given area of the bore is only near it for a
few seconds, there is less time for the lands to be eroded by ion leakage.
Anyway, I really like your idea for an electrode, but a whole barrel electrode would exacerbate the whole current supply
problem.
One other thing: forcing electrolyte down long, winding, really narrow pathways would take a hell of a lot of pressure, and would
also limit your etching rate because of the oxide/debris that would be generated. You would have to use really deep channels
on a full length electrode to accomodate the electrolyte. Alternatively, you could cut channels in a solid bar to match the lands,
and let the raised areas etch the grooves. Don't know how well that would work, but someday I might try it.
Jacks Complete February 3rd, 2004, 11:01 AM

You can feed that kind of current. Take the 10 amp 240 supply down to 3 volts, using a surplus electrolysis transformer. The
external turns will be bus bar, bolted together, about ten wraps worth!
or you could make one (but don't forget the isolation transformer!)
I am not sure if you need to use DC or not, but I would. You will need one hefty diode! They are called "stub diodes" and are
rated to 1000 Amps. Shop around.
akinrog February 3rd, 2004, 04:50 PM

JoeJablomy:
Yes you are right, I read the patent again (last time I only read it skimmingly and since I had a fixed idea, I thought it does
not contain any mobile electrode) and I notice it realy mentions about a moving/rotating electrode.
Anyway back to topic. SWIM also noticed another flaw in his thinking. The patent (which IMHO is the most reliable source of
information, although patents are designed to contain some vagueness) mentions about high pressure chamber implying that
the electrolyte must be forced through the channels created as I stated above. So a simple submersible pump IMHO shall not
do the trick of removing the oxides, etc. in the originally described setup.
But SWIM thinks the sealing and insulation created by insulation tapes applied on the brass electrode must prevent
electrochemical removal of the metal on the adjacent areas of the exposed portions of the bore to a certain extent and IMHO
keep such unwanted metal removal at minimum. If SWIM would perform such process using the above devised setup, he
might opt for a small amperage power supply and for several (more then 10) layers of insulation tape (on a relatively smaller
brass rod) to facilitate removal of debris by means of pumping, since SWIM shall (most probably) have no pressure chamber
and complicated /pricy high pressure pump.
Moreover, using a fixed electrode setup must eliminate complicated mechanical device which is needed for twisting movement
of the electrode setup. But this time SWIM must have a smaller diameter brass rod to accomodate more layers (e.g. 10+) to
create say 2 mm deep spiral channels to allow better circulation of the electrolyte. And SWIM in this case shall use not nitrate
salt but chloride salt to prevent formation of debris forming oxides but (most probably) water soluble metal salts thereby
allowing for easy removal of the electrochemically etched metal.

Surely this is being rather more complex than required?
You could just shake the water bath fairly often, and it would do the same thing. If you wanted to get really clever, you could
easily arrange it so that there was a head of salt water, and it flowed through the barrel from the top. You could even just
slowly empty the solute out, and tip it back in the top.
I think it is not going to be a problem unless you have a thousand amp PSU and you want to cut the rifling in 30 seconds or
less.
JoeJablomy February 7th, 2004, 04:46 AM

akinrog: The residue will be an oxide unless you use strong acid for the electrolyte. Even then there will probably be oxide.
Aluminum anodizing uses acid and does make aluminum salt with it, but of course the whole point of the process is to form an
oxide film, which it does. Water is also electrolyzed and plenty of hydrogen escapes; that's where the oxygen comes from.
Normal salt water corrosion of steel makes rust, ECM will do the same.
Also, you can still find the article on ECM'ed blisks. Turns out a lot of the metal is probably removed by normal milling, and
ECM makes the part 90% complete. Anyway, look at the picture in it. The part right out of the machine has rust streaks.
OK, covering the lands-to-be by contact with the tape would be pretty effective at shielding them. But now you're layering
about 30 tiny strips of tape percisely onto a brass rod. Sounds complicated. The way I have in mind is, you cut one helical
groove on a plastic rod that matches your twist rate [indexing rod]. Then you attach the short electrode to the end, with an
insulated lead coming off the leading end. You make a 'bench' out of a large improvised trough, and mount the barrel in it
with end blocks. One of them has the lead coming out and the pump feed going in, the other one has fluid exit holes and an
extra 1-4 inches of length, through which you drill a hole the same size as your indexing rod. You cross drill into the guide
hole, and insert a pin that indexes to the helical groove on your indexing rod. The end blocks would of course be plastic, as
would the indexing rod and probably the electrode body. The rod would obviously have to fit down the bore. Alternatively, you
could make the indexing rod and electrode out of one piece of Al rod, which wouldn't be all that big for rifle and especially smg
sized barrels. Once you have the grooves machined into it, you would anodize the whole thing to insulate its surfaces, except
for the bottoms of the electrode grooves, of course. All you have to do is smudge grease or any number of other things in
them after the pre-anodizing cleaning has been finished, making very sure you only mask the groove areas. It might be a
good idea to experiment with and perfect anodizing before you try to make a gun part :) (alternatively, an anodizing shop
could probably do the whole thing for you, or you could cut the electrode grooves after anodizing. This way, the indexing rod is
also the lead-wire.
Other notes: you would have to make the indexing rod significantly narrower than the bore to allow flow; the electrode would
be just less than the bore but would have the grooves. The grooves wouldn't need to be very deep because they don't run very
far on the 2" electrode.
The last complication is moving the electrode down the bore. This could just be done by hand. Mark off every 1/4" and watch a
metronome or something.
Jack: What's an isolation transformer?

I was thinking of taking a large intact transformer, and maybe even just winding a new secondary with 1/4" grounding cable.
Cut off the leads for the original. Would this light on fire or something? How about a battery charger? Anyway, for the traveling
electrode in any normal sized barrel, I really doubt more than 50 amps would really be needed. I guess I could do some
calculations to find the amount of material to be removed, and convert that into a theoretical total charge, time, and
amperage.

OK, here's what my napkin looks like:
I guess I'll use a .45 caliber barrel, and make it 6" long for an imaginary smg.
The groove depth should probably be .005, and assuming half the bore is grooved and half is lands, the material to be
removed has a cross section of
.45*Pi*.005=.0071 in^2 and in 6" length has volume .0424 in^3.
Now converting to metric for molar stuff..
Online conversions says it's .695 cc.
Assuming our imaginary steel has a density of 7.8 g/cc, the mass to be removed is
5.4g
A mole of Fe is 55.8g, so we have .097 moles, or 5.85x10^22 atoms.
Now, if I understand the chemistry right, each Fe atom needs 3 electrons exchanged, so a total of 1.75x10^23 electrons have
to change hands, give or take a few. This is about 28,000 coulombs.
Well, damn! You would need 1000 amps to do it in 30s.
At 50 amps, the 6" would take 558s, 9.3 min, and more because it won't be totally efficient. One thing you might need good
electrolyte flow for is cooling, not to mention bringing in water to electrolyze for O and flushing out H2. Maybe you could use
nitrate salts to provide O without the H2, as that seems to have been suggested; it might even speed up the process. Does
anyone have a good idea how to figure what resistance and power will be? Also, how much current do you think a grounding
cable can handle at maybe 6V?
Spartin13 February 10th, 2004, 08:04 AM

i hope that this bit of information will help. a while back i had a book (i lent out never to see again) on barrel making. button
rifling is by far the easyest to do. the button would be made of carbide. the carbid would be oval shaped with finished size
lands and groove cut into it at the proper angle of the rate of twist. then the button is silver soudered to a rod that is longer
than the barrel. near the end of the rod there is to be a bearing so the rod will turn freely as the button goes threw the barrel.
the barrel is locked down and the rod/button is pulled threw. the whole rifling is done in one pass. the best way to pull it threw
is hydrolicly. a number of years ago i was going to use the hydrices/ return stroke from my logsplitter to pull buttons threw. 20
ton hydro more than enough force for one pass. hope this helps
john_smith February 12th, 2004, 05:33 AM

Come to think about it, a moving electrode is probably better since it'll ensure that the grooves are smooth in longitudinal
direction.
As for button rifling, anybody have an idea what's the minimum necessary force required for the press?
akinrog February 13th, 2004, 08:34 PM

Actually I am suggesting the fixed electrode design out of my laziness :p. It seems hard (at least) for me to create a
mechanism to do the twisting motion accurately and in a reproducible manner. Instead I prefer a fixed design to achieve slow
metal removal by applying small currents.
JoeJablomy. I think I forgot my chemistry although I was once studying chemical engineering. You are right, the residue shall
be oxide. And you are right again about the difficulty and feasibility of winding several layers of tape on the brass. :( I made a
small tape winding experiment on a pencil and it is hell difficult with even only a single pass. The process needs delicate
hands which an adult lacks. I now think of glueing tiny (1 -1,5 mm) rubber strips over the pencil in order to see if I can do
that. If I can find time and thin rubber sheet, I shall try it on the pencil. I think you say the ECR process creates rust which is
not good for the barrel. Right? So in the links about barrel making (namely http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm)
there is a process called lapping. For example SWIM may do lapping after ECR to eliminate rust from the barrel.

Akinrog: Obviously, iron oxide is rust, so it will be on the cut surfaces. Lapping wouldn't be a bad idea because ECR does very
little to polish or smooth the inside of the barrel. On the other hand, for improvised stuff it doesn't need to be that fancy (it
doesn't even need to be that good for S&W). I guess you just have to hope the rust won't be stuck on hard and the surface
deep pitted, and run a bunch of patches through it. The first few bullets should blow any other rust out, and since it is mildly
abrasive and evenly distributed down the barrel, it might be good for fire lapping. Maybe.
One advantage to the whole barrel electrode is that the lower current density might need less voltage. Might also melt your
transformer if you're not careful, but so would any other.
Incidentally, what does SWIM mean? I've been picking up a few of the other acronyms, but SWIM and KIFE still elude me.

I guess you just have to hope the rust won't be stuck on hard and the surface deep pitted, and run a bunch of patches
through it. The first few bullets should blow any other rust out, and since it is mildly abrasive and evenly distributed down the
barrel, it might be good for fire lapping. Maybe.
You are right also about denting. I inserted two needles in a saline solution and they become exteremely dented and rough,
and I easily assume that this will be same for the barrel. :( But one advantage is since SWIM does not need to remove very
much metal, SWIM thinks the barrel might be less dented. BTW what about using HCl? May be this eliminates problem of
oxides to a certain extent! :)
Incidentally, what does SWIM mean? I've been picking up a few of the other acronyms, but SWIM and KIFE still elude me.
SWIM means Somebody Who Is not Me. I don't know what KIFE is too.
Crane February 16th, 2004, 07:57 AM

Using an anodized aluminum rod as the electrode/indexing rod sounds like a good idea. I've found nail polish to be fairly
useful in guarding the aluminum during anodizing, zvand might be easier to remove than grease.
But, it took me a good few tries to get an acceptable, even coating on the aluminum. So, if you're looking to DIY-anodize,
then you should probably practice on some scrap first (like JoeJablomy said). ;)
dougpfaff July 9th, 2006, 10:21 PM

idea of how to turn a lathe into a rifling machine.zip (17.6 KB, 128 views)
Could I get a copy of the info at the link mentioned in the first post?
ozboy August 5th, 2006, 10:05 AM

I have uploaded a pdf on electro chemical machining to rapidshare.
It seems to be a lot simpler in theory than practice.
http://rapidshare.de/files/28274260/electro-chemical_1_.machining.rar.html
sparkchaser September 8th, 2006, 11:22 AM

For ECM/ECR you actually need extremely HIGH voltage to do it with speed. Most commercial tanks use 30,000 volts or more.
One good thing is that the amps are very low so it's harder to fry yourself badly. Another place they use ECM is in turbojet
engines. Big manufacturers are able to create large parts to extremely high tolerance by using CAM/CNC that wield copper
electrodes instead of hardened steel bits. An entire compressor wheel can take less than an hour to be produced from a
massive billet block!
dougpfaff September 23rd, 2006, 10:12 PM

Here's a link to a rifling attachment for a lathe: http://www.homemetalshopclub.org/news/jun98/jun98.html
dougpfaff September 24th, 2006, 03:39 AM

Here's a couple links to a concept for a lathe-based rifling attachment:
http://www.homemetalshopclub.org/news/jun98/jun98.html#Rifling
http://www.homemetalshopclub.org/news/jul98/jul98.html#Rifling
This may already have been mentioned.
Gunner2 March 20th, 2008, 05:27 PM

Ive got video (both parts) about Rifling Machine by Bill Webb & Guy Lautard .Just in case anybody needs it.
a3990918 March 20th, 2008, 07:30 PM

Ive got video (both parts) about Rifling Machine by Bill Webb & Guy Lautard .Just in case anybody needs it.
Would like to see it. Can you up-load to Mega-Upload?? :confused: Thanks...
generallisimo March 21st, 2008, 12:32 AM

I understand peoples desire to have free download services. One of the best right now is Media Fire. Give it a shot.
Gunner2 I would really like that video.
However I stand by Rapidshare.com as an uploader.
a3990918 March 21st, 2008, 05:14 PM

.
However I stand by Rapidshare.com as an uploader.
I like RS also but they don't offer a free Happy Hour to downloaders like Mega does. 6 hrs of Premium access per day for free.
Rapidshare can't even begin to compete with it.
For indivisual files, RS is definately faster but for multiples or large files split in to segments, Mega is by far the faster.
generallisimo March 21st, 2008, 05:55 PM

I like RS also but they don't offer a free Happy Hour to downloaders like Mega does. 6 hrs of Premium access per day for free.
Rapidshare can't even begin to compete with it.
For indivisual files, RS is definately faster but for multiples or large files split in to segments, Mega is by far the faster.
Therefore my suggestion for media fire. Free all day long.
Gunner2 March 30th, 2008, 05:54 PM

OK , this is what I ve mentioned before (see my pr.message above): http://www.megaupload.com/?d=P6M22ULG This is first
part of CD1, there will be 3 parts per 1 CD.. In order to extract you gotta have all 3 parts. From time to time I will be posting
them here.Its bloody job to upload 300megs per part.
Gunner2 April 3rd, 2008, 12:42 AM

first part of CD 1 http://www.megaupload.com/?d=P6M22ULG (290mb)
second part of CD1 http://www.megaupload.com/?d=S23IQGTP (290mb)
and third part of CD 1 http://www.megaupload.com/?d=FJ8AOGYG (70mb)
download all three parts to same folder , then click on first part and unrar wherever you want. In first CD mostly is descrybed
how to build drilling-rifling machine. In second (will be posted) mostly how to operate in diferent modes.
akinrog April 3rd, 2008, 02:39 PM

first part of CD 1
second part of CD1
and third part of CD 1
I would be very glad if someone can upload it to FTP or rapidshare.
Lenkers April 3rd, 2008, 04:48 PM

Bill_Webb_s_Rifling_Machine_supplement.pdf (http://rapidshare.com/files/104628982/
Bill_Webb_s_Rifling_Machine_supplement.pdf.html)
I found this. Is it already on the CDs?
Gunner2 April 24th, 2008, 01:25 AM

Bill_Webb_s_Rifling_Machine_supplement.pdf (http://rapidshare.com/files/104628982/
Bill_Webb_s_Rifling_Machine_supplement.pdf.html)
I found this. Is it already on the CDs?
Yep, it is!! Thanks for the Supplement to the Video! Second video part CD2 has been uploaded.
Video CD #2:
1part: http://rapidshare.com/files/109041895/part1.rar.html
After you've got all 6 parts, put them to the same folder , click on the first one, unrar wherever you want.
akinrog May 12th, 2008, 08:35 PM

This two parts video of a metal lathe rifling machine is now on FTP under the folder of UPLOAD\Akinrog.
I take this opportunity to thank to gunner2 for making available this rare stuff. :)
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Techniques of safecracking - Archive File
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shady mutha
Frequent Poster
Posts: 149
From: australia
posted 04-18-2001 07:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is from"Techniques of safecracking"by Wayne B Yeager-Loompanics Unlimited.
Chapter 7 -Explosives.
One of the burglars methods of safe entry is via high explosive.Nitroglycerine is still widely used today,but the power,reliability,and safety of plastic explosives,such as C-4,is
favored by modern safecrackers over the old timers "grease"
Back in the old days ,nitroglycerine was simply drained from dynamite sticks,but when stricter guidelines for dynamite manufacture were introduced,burglars found it necessary
to make their own.Nitro is simply a mixture of nitric and sulfuric acids with a little glycerin thrown in.There are several books on the market today which offer the recipe,but one
of the best is Uncle Festers"home workshop explosives".
When blowing a safe with nitroglycerine,the safecracker also needs a moldable substance to create a funnel-like device.Historically,soap(such as fels Naptha)has been used for
this function.When the soap is hand kneaded for about 15 minutes,it becomes a very malleable substance with a consistency that will not permit the nitro to leak through it.Also
in the safecrackers toolbag should be a strip of cellophane,blasting caps,and a prybar.
Of all nitroglycerine techniques,the most common is what is called the"jam-shot."It is feasible on most safes,round and square door alike,and requires no physical movement of
the safe.The purpose of the jam-shot is to blow the door open while still on its hinges.Occasionally a safecracker will use too much"grease"which requires either another shot of
nitro,or some serious door prying.
The piece of cellophane is folded into an 8"x1/2" strip,and placed lengthwise into the space between the door and the door frame.The soap is fashioned into a cup,with a
funnel shape made around the cellophane.This provides a channel for the flow of the nitroglycerine once it is introduced into the cup.The blasting cap is places carefully into the
cup,the wires are unrolled and extended to the battery hookup,which should be safely out the way of the explosion.
I will finish this later if people are interested.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-18-2001 08:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something in that which caught my attention was the mention of uncle fester's book, which has the reliablity of the A-crapbook.Just someting to keep in mind.-Pyro
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
posted 04-18-2001 10:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would you need a book to know how to make nitroglycerin? All it is is nitrated glycerin just like nitro-anything is nitrated anything. Which means a nitration bath. And it
shouldn't be too hard to get optimal ratios of HNO3 and glycerin and H2SO4. All you need is common sense not to blow your ass up.
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
posted 04-18-2001 11:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dude, Nitro kills experienced chemists, it requires perfection everytime.
shady mutha
Frequent Poster
Posts: 149
From: australia
posted 04-19-2001 02:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The nitro is now poured into the cup,and the safecracker observes the rate at which the safe is"drinking".Nitro is a syrupy liquid,and there must be a continuos,unbroken chain
of liquid all the way to the detonator.When approximately one ounce has been consumed,and the burglar has determined that a continuous river of nitro exists from the last
drop down inside the door,all the way to the blasting cap,he sets off the detonater.This is the real art of safe blowing-knowing exactly when to detonate.If all goes well,the
safe door will be blown open,and the contents revealed.
The "gut-shot"or"spindle shot" is another very popular nitroglycerine method.The use of the gut-shot is limited,though,since the safe must be moveable,and the modern safes
relocking device may render this technique useless.
The gut-shot requires that the burglar first knock off the combination dial with a hammer,then tilt the safe over on its back.A blasting cap is attached to the spindle,and an
eyedropper-and-a-half of "grease"is allowed to trickle down the shaft of the spindle.The nitro will find its way into the locking mechanism,and when detonated,will destroy the
entire "guts" of the lock.The door can then be opened by simply turning the handle.
In addition to nitroglycerine,professional burglars use castable high explosives such as C-4,PETN,RDX or TNT to either blow a hole in the safe,or blow the safe apart.These high
explosives can be sometimes be purchased from legitimate users,or can be manufactures using a formula in"home workshop explosives".
The ribbon charge is simply a rectangular box of high explosive placed on or near the target safe.To help direct the force of the explosion,several bags filled with water are
placed on the charge.This also serves to significantly reduce the noise level of the explosion.This type of explosive technique will usually penetrate 3-4 inches of steel,so
obviously a great amount of damage is done to the safe.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From: Guess
posted 04-19-2001 10:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any modern safe would not open to an explosive attack against the lock. As soon as the lock is seperated from the safe door, spring loaded relockers kick into place, sealing
the safe.
Better safes have a tempered glass backing that will shatter upon any serious shock to the safe.
------------------

shady mutha
Frequent Poster
Posts: 149
From: australia
posted 04-20-2001 01:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is another method listed in that book,it is the same as the paladin press video'A to Z of B and E Vol 2'.Basicly the safeman drills a hole in the safe,fills it completely with
water and inserts a pencil shaped explosive and detonates it,he says water does not compress,so the safe comes open.In the video which I also have it shows the bloke drilling
the hole,its doesn't show what they put in but you do see him putting money in the safe-Boom-the safe was turned into dust and tennis ball sized chunks,the metal covering of
the safe is still in one piece,the bloke gets the money out.
Machiavelli
Frequent Poster
Posts: 281
From: Germany
posted 04-20-2001 05:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you have a scanner? Or a tv-card?
shady mutha
Frequent Poster
Posts: 149
From: australia
posted 04-20-2001 07:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah,got a scanner,but my computer skills are very poor.I have many books that I would like to publish on the net,but the fact is I don't know how.If anyone knows a
reasonably easy way to do it I will give it a go.
I tried to send a member a book threw hotmail attachments and it was a fuck up.My scanner is very slow.about 3-5 mins per page.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From: Guess
posted 04-20-2001 10:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a video that shows a cast iron shell rupturing after it's been filled with water and placed in a freezing mix.
Water, being incompressible, and expanding when frozen, exerts incredible pressure that will rupture almost anything.
I've thought that, if someone stole a safe during winter in a cold region, rather than trying to break it open on site, just remove to somewhere safe and drill a hole in it and fill
completely with water. Tap the hole and seal. Leave it outside and the water will freeze overnight and bust the safe.
This all assumes that you can move the safe and that what's inside won't be destroyed by the pressure. If it's just money than there'd be no problem. But if there's jewelry or
guns, the pressure will crush them.
------------------
Machiavelli
Frequent Poster
Posts: 281
From: Germany
posted 04-21-2001 03:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the attacker already managed to drill the safe, there are much better techniques to use.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From: Guess
posted 04-21-2001 10:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps if one could pour a supersaturated solution that would freeze and expand when a crystal or some other activator was added. Then you could break a safe on the spot
without any freezing.
------------------
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 04-21-2001 11:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If one could drill into the safe, then couldn't one just drill a series of holes in the shape of a square or circle, and then punch out the square or circle.
Sounds rather easy to me.
Machiavelli
Frequent Poster
Posts: 281
From: Germany
posted 04-21-2001 01:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
blackadder:
If you're trying to drill a series of holes in a real safe (anti-burglar, not anti-fire) you'll need a lot of time and a lot of good drill bits. You'll be going against hardened steel,
carbide plates and some other fun stuff. Good luck.
Drilling safes means making one or a few holes that allow you to either manipulate the locking mechanism of the door or use an endoscope to look at the discpack of the
safelock.
And if you're going against a fire-protection "safe" you'd be better off using a disc grinder to chop it.
Shady Mutha:
Using mail attachments is pretty hopeless for this stuff. You need to use ftp or maybe a webdrive. Maybe I'll start a thread on this tomorrow, don't have the time right now.
shady mutha
Frequent Poster
Posts: 149
From: australia
posted 04-21-2001 06:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I once tried to get into a large safe,anyone who has done'breaks'knows cracking safes is easier said than done.Anyway we rocked up with heaps of tools, it took half the night
just getting in the place,waiting to see if the anyone showed after cutting the alarm.Some alarms run off mobile phones so even if you cut the phone lines the message may
still get through so you have to wait.Anyway my mate is much stronger than me so I got him to start drilling.The safe was a fucking monster and demoralized us on the
spot,we fucked up by not drilling a leader hole (I think)anyway the drill wouldn't bite,and after half an hour we left without so much as a dent in the safe.
Gollum
Frequent Poster
Posts: 92
From:
posted 05-11-2001 04:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't really care about what's inside the safe (I make that assumption because you're using explosives anyways), you could use a shape charge or a drill to make a hole
in a wall of it. Then you would fill the hole with a high det. velocity explosive and detonate it. It should make a nice big circle (Depending on the metal's crystal patterns).
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-11-2001 08:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surely the idea of going to the trouble of getting into the safe is to take what is inside?
Unless it contained evidence incriminating you?
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 05-11-2001 11:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how about a hollow thermal lance with o2 pumped through it? or better yet a backpack oxy acetelene torch? or even thermite. I looked at the bank in town's safe and I looked
at the back, they have a plate glass slab over some springloaded devices that will lock it into place on all four sides, I dont think it takes much to break that glass so on big
safes I think lock disableing is out of the question even drilling the lock might break the glass. I say melt the dam safe full of water, that way not too much damage comes to
the stuff inside, just if you use thermite you still may have problems.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From: Guess
posted 05-12-2001 10:32 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps explosive rupturing from the inside would work.
The key would be to use the explosive in such a way that the contents aren't destroyed.
If the safe contains precious metals like silver coins or gold bullion, than a straight explosive could be used because the contents won't change from the heat or pressure.
Gemstones might shatter from a brisant charge so something with high gas volume but low brisance would be better. (azide pellets)
Paper documents can't take any heat without burning, but they're immune from shock. So filling the safe with water before blowing the charge would keep it safe.
Remember, safes are designed to keep people out, not explosive pressures in. The stronger the safe the more pressure will be needed. For this purpose, total gas volume in
the most important factor because it's the internal overpressure that's going to cause a rupture.
Perhaps the azide pellets from an airbag (or several) could be inserted inside a tube which then passes through into the safe via hole.
The pellets are formulated to release a very large amount of nitrogen in almost instantly. And the gas is cooler than papers ignition point because of the additives mixed with
the azide to keep people getting burned by it.
The glass relocker may be a problem or not, depending. If the explosive pressure is high enough, it'll rupture the case regardless. If not, the relocker will be activated.
A possible way to defeat it would be to drill 2 small holes in the safe door. One at the top, one at the bottom. Thread both holes for bolts. Then inject quick hardening foam
inside the door from the bottom.
As it expands and hardens, the pressure will be relieved out the top hole until foam comes out.
Once it's all hardened, put in the bolts. Now the relockers are frozen in place by the foam, unable to activate in time to prevent the door from blowing open.
------------------
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
posted 05-12-2001 04:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, if your serious about getting one of the fuckers open then I don't see why you can't by the same safe(If buying the safe is cost effective, if not, this isn't such a good
idea)and then make a batch or two of thermite and see how much thermite it takes to melt through the top so as not to damage the valuables inside.Once you know the exact
amount of thermite then hit your mark and burn a huge hole right through the safe.I'm no expert on safes, it just seems like this is a relatively easy way to get into a safe but
albeit there's some unspoken rule about not using thermite on safes and I'm gonna get whacked.-Pyro
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 05-17-2001 05:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Talking about short of cash you will probable
all know those machines in supermarkets where you can putt your empty coke/beer bottles in in order to get the receipt and exchange it to money,
How do these things work and is there away to fool these thing's?
------------------
DarkAngel

sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
posted 05-17-2001 05:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont know if you have the same kind of can ones by me but they look like 2 rollers that roll and it pushes the can in well what you do is you put your finger in the can and let
it go in and pull it out with your finger and let it go in again and pull it back out (I once saw a bum do it)
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 05-18-2001 02:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No that isn't possible here because they made a corner in the machine so you can't pull them back
------------------
DarkAngel

CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
From: Your Nightmares
posted 05-19-2001 09:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uncle Fester's book on explosives does indeed suck royally. But his book on synthetic drug manufacture, Secrets of Methamphetamine Manufacture, contains some pretty good
"recipes".

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Getting money from
payphones - Archive File
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SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 399
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
posted 04-18-2001 07:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been trying to figure out how to open the coin box on payphones with destroying them. It seems to me that is you can
reliably get the money out then, you could get lots of money (200-500$)by going to a few phones. One thing that I already
know is that a t-key is required, but I think that another is also needed and I don't know if it's universal. Could the locks be
picked ? I'm thinking that between 20-50$ based on the size of the box, is that acurate ? Any info would be great ?
The reason I like this Idea so much is the ease, low risk and void of voilence. Are there any other ways similar to getting
money.
I only want to know for the theorectical aspect of it.
------------------
With Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
posted 04-18-2001 08:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I have heard of a thing called a "red box" and the way it {theoretically} works is by unscrewing the speaker that you
speak into and playing a recording of the internet(preferably an older computer).I know this is from the A-crapbook and the
only reason I post this is because I have heard accounts from phreakers of this working.I'm am not sure though, I guess it's
worth a try,eh?-Pyro
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 04-18-2001 09:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the boxes are incredibly old and absolutely positivley not work in the us, I have herd rumors about them working in mexico in
some desolate towns but I doubt it, anything regarding a green box is shit too as by the time anyone figured out how to use
one they didnt work anymore. now about the only way to phreak the phone lines in to go to a central office (a metal box that
controls phones ther's one about every 5 miles or 300 people(sometimes more or less) I think after you get a "T" key there
may be a drawer box or another simpler box and a weaker non armored shell
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-18-2001 10:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was a TV program here in the UK about stealing from pay phones.
It had people on camera breaking into the phones, I think you have to get the door open and then there's a removable
(probably locked)cash box inside. So guy used a "modified car jack" (scissor type) to pry the door open, it took a long time
and he ended up jumping on the jack to finally get the phone open. It was late at night and the guy pretended to be making
a call whenever a car came past. Shame the twat didn't realise he was on camera (face not covered and illuminated perfectly
by the light in the phone box).
A better organsied guy drove upto and parked next to a phone box at the edge of a road, got out, opened the rear car door
opposite the phone walked in the phone box and then there was a massive blinding light from inside the phone box - yup,
oxy-acetylene he was gone in under 2 minutes (from originally getting out of the car). He had the tanks in the back of the car
and just took the torch into the phone box. CCTV camera didn't get his face since it was too dark outside the phone box and
the oxy-acetylene torch blinded it. I think he also had his face covered.
The phone company seems pretty wise to how vulnerable phone boxes are they have their own police force that checks up on
them. If you keep hitting a phone box they will stake it out and catch you.
Something popular with kids was "blocking". They jammed the coin return flap up so that any change given collected on top of
the flap so people couldn't get it. They then just unjammed the flap and all the money fell out. They wouldn't say exactly how
they did it but it's hardly rocket science. You don't get so much money but it's quick, easy and doesn't look suspicious. The
kids got caught though because they did it around london, everyday they'd ride the tube around the city collecting the money
from all the phones at every station and then reblocking them. Far too predictable for the group of wannabe-cops running
around in plain cloth "disguises" co-ordinating with mobile phones. I think it's less of a crime though as you're not actually
stealing from the phone company (the money isn't theirs) and you're also not physically damaging the phone, although you
are interupting its intended function.
With the amount if CCTV cameras in urban areas nowadays, phone boxes are pretty well covered. So you'd want to find one
out in the middle of nowhere, but then you haven't got much of a resource to loot.
Quickest (and most original) method would probably to blast the door off. Go into the box, place the charge, light the fuse,
duck out side, bang, run in, grab the cash box and leg it. First suspicious sign would be the bang and the time after that till
when you're gone is only a few seconds.
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
posted 04-18-2001 11:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We used to jam a rag up coin return slots, then, at the end of the day just take it out and you've got enough for some food.
Nice, illegal way to treat yourself to some burritos when your broke.
I miss the good old days, when a quarter with wire attached to it could get you all the free drinks you wanted, ....good times.
Crux
Frequent Poster
Posts: 71
From: australia
posted 04-19-2001 03:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
when i 1st leard of the jaming the coin slot up and did it, when i injamed the phonne the was so much $$ inside that the slot i
lifted up and jambed got stuck, so the next time i was more carefull and got over $30, this when on for a few weeks untill
people started to figure is out then evey one was doing it and you were lucky to get $2 from the phone
Bandit
Frequent Poster
Posts: 82
From: U.K.
posted 04-19-2001 08:37 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boxing still works in the uk, but if you are going to unlock them some of the new ones ring up the operator and tells them its
unlockes.
Bandit
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
posted 04-19-2001 01:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also saw the program with the Oxy-Acetalene torch, I think it was a gang of 3 people and they hit quite a few boxes.
Some boxing does still work in the UK apparently. You have to use a little social engineering as well as some recorded tones.
This site has all the details: http://www.p0wm.cjb.net/
------------------
"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't
need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John 'Lofty' Wiseman
Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 228
From: UK
posted 04-19-2001 04:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The closest I've got was making a few free calls with a special technique...worked for the first few times but when I went back
to the box later, the engineers had obviously disabled it.
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 399
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
posted 04-19-2001 06:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I heard that red boxing (generating the tones for coins) still works in the uS. I hate to be an ass but I did say without
destroying the phone, I don't care too much just keep it in mind. As far as the jaming method goes I not to keen on screwing
real people, but it still won't get the whole amount out of the phone. If you can do it with out damage there would be the
possibllity of doing it again, by rotating the phone you do it to this could go on for a bit. Ohh and thanks !
------------------
With Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom
JB
New Member
Posts: 27
From: UK
posted 04-28-2001 07:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had a dream that a few months back my friend wanted to try one of my pure sodium chlorate explosives on a phone box
just to grab a bit of money. I dont know why but I let him, and using a 6" scafold pipe explosive, it was placed on the phone
book rest, net to the phone, the fuse lit, and we drove off down the road. The area was checked for people first, but nobody
was to be seen. Very soon after came an almighty bang. We came back in the car to find the whole phone booth had been
blown to pieces - it looked like a car had been dropped from a great height onto it!! It was removed the next day, and not
replaced since. I do not approve of this at all, but we did find that the cash is actually stored inside a box within the phone,
and doesnt drop down to a container lower down in the phone booth, as to popular belief. After all this, no money was
retrieved.
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
From:
posted 04-28-2001 10:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the new phone boxxes in OZ are fucked, because there so small, they don't hold very much money
i found one once(as the saying goes "it fell of the back of a truck" ) and the most i most money i could get it to hold was $20.
which, if you ask me, isn't enough money to justify the time and effort that goes into getting the fuckers open
the orginal phone in OZ held around $50 in coins - and the cash draws were made from cast iron,
so to get into the case draw all you needed was a hard blow with a sharp object to front of them and you were in
on the topic of taking money from public machines,

does anyone know how the ticket machines on train stations(in australia) varify the note money? (like $5 notes etc...)
like how does the machine know that you inserted a $5 note?
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
posted 04-28-2001 01:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An article in the local paper a few months ago reported the conviction of two women who had been getting free money from
the change-making machine at a do-it-yourself car wash. The machine happily accepted photocopies of $1 bills and dished out
four quarters in return.
Really small time scam to be sure, and the women got caught because they kept doing it day after day when they should have
known the car-wash owner had staked the place out after discovering all the photocopies.
The hundred or so bucks this intellectually challenged duo made during their week-long "crime spree" wasn't even enough to
keep them in cigarettes during the one-year jail sentences they received. All is not lost though - maybe they'll write a "how to"
manual and really clean up marketing it on the internet.
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
posted 05-03-2001 03:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does that trick work?
I also once read that if you bent a dollar a certain way, it would convince the change machine that a dollar had entered, but it
would give the dollar back. Anyone done that?
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
posted 05-03-2001 10:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The newest designs of Coke machines are fucking armor plated computers, they do have alarms, they are sounded when a
dollar bill is forcefully removed, or there is tampering with the money box.
ssblood
New Member
Posts: 16
From:
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-04-2001 04:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redboxes do work. I have done it on Verizon payphones and have still not had a problem. They are very cheap to make, I
bought the tone dialer for 4.99 at Radio Shack and got the crystal cod from Mouser Electronics. Takes 15 minutes to solder if
you know what you are doing.
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 399
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
posted 05-06-2001 02:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does the alarm on the coke machine work if it's unplugged . If so that's a lot of technology in a coke machine, must make
tons of money.
macgyver6868 October 23rd, 2006, 03:03 AM

If you take a piece of copper tubing roughly the size of the hole,pound it in with a hammer,pinch it with pliers and twist,is
should open.this was done a my local wal-mart to the "hi-tech" coke machines.the person walked out with $50-$100.
c.Tech October 23rd, 2006, 09:13 AM

Many years ago when I was a child both my sister and I saw a guy walk up to a payphone, flatten what looked like a straw, slid
it at the top of the coil return flap where there is a little gap, when he got it high enough money fell through, he grabbed it
and left.
But since the 90's the design had probably changed to prevent this.
Since then when I was in my early teens I tried the method with no success.
What I really hate about the payphones in OZ is that when you us e a 1 or 2 dollar coin you aren t likely to get any change
from the cheep bastards called Telstra.
Match October 23rd, 2006, 11:59 AM

Free coke from the new coke machines :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZlA2VLxLIk&mode=related&search=
c.Tech October 24th, 2006, 08:18 AM

I've seen many methods of getting free coke out of coke machines but not the machines they are using, the ones with the
cylinder dome at the front that gives out cans.
The first method I saw works only occasionally and is very dangerous. People just run up to the machine jumping into it and
bouncing back, this could cause the plastic at the front to snap leaving spikes or in the worse case scenario the whole
machine could fall back on you. I don t think it s worth a free coke.
The second method is quite simple but rarely works, I ve pressed the button very quickly and fast or multiple bu ttons, the
machine gives me 2 drinks.
The last method works very well if you have long skinny arms but only works on some machines where the flap at the
bottom moves up higher than it should. Simply reach your arm up, feel for a can and yank. It worked for me but took a while
its first time, half an hour and a scratche d arm later I had 2 free drinks :D.
CosmikDebris October 24th, 2006, 09:25 AM

Macgyver6868;
Where exactly did they put this copper tube?
Was this a DN5000 GFV? (Glass front vendor)
random136 October 27th, 2006, 01:49 AM

Gentlemen, need I remind you that the topic at hand is getting money from a pay phone and not getting free food from a
vending machine?
But, since it has been brought up here before, I might as well mention this.
c.Tech there are many, safer, saner ways to get free pop. Here is one method that works on the new machines in North
America. I live in Canada and have seen these machines here before.
I never tried this however, but it does seem practical. To be more precise, you get several drinks for the price of one.
May I direct your attention to this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZlA2VLxLIk
Shure it's kewl, but it seems to work.
macgyver6868 November 15th, 2006, 01:39 PM

CosmicDebris,it was on the newest coke machines that i have seen.they were the type with the thick plastic front that displays
the coke logo and a bottle.the reason that i posted this was because coke machines are supposed to be more secure than pay
phones and they should open with the same method.they did it when alot of people were there talking and they repeted it
several times and they still havent been caught.
+++++++++++
Could someone please pay attention in school when they try teaching english to someone? Little things like capitalizing the
letter I when referring to oneself.
Thank you.
NBK
augoldminer November 27th, 2006, 12:03 AM

Many pay phone have 8 screws holding the mounting plate to the Booth.
The repairman use the top 6. Seldom use all 8. The mounting plate may be lifted 3/8 inch and it will come off the wall. This is
done so that if some jams the locks the repairman can pull the phone for repair.
This may be done by putting a small screw jack on the shelf under the phone and lifting the phone off the screws.
Chopper November 27th, 2006, 11:52 AM

Anyone with a keen eye will notice the 'laser radiation' logo and yellow sticker on the back of the newer coke machines. I'm
under the understanding that a laser beam is directed at each and every coin entering the machine, scanning each one for the
metals present in it, and their approximate concentrations.
I don't know enough about that kinda gear to understand how it works. I guess the spectrum of reflected light is examined,
and the presence or absence of 'bands' - similar to those exhibited during a flame test is noted.
Here in Aust at least, the public pay-phones are losing something like $600 a week each. Well the ones they'd (Telstra) like to
remove anyway. I'd be very surprised if the phones had anything like this. Although, I will note that the 'new' design of
payphones in aust (i.e the ones with a digital display) are
(1) Incapable of recieving incoming calls.
(2) Able to report, in real time, the status of the phone. Right down to whether the coin-flap is open!
Carefull playing around guys.
c.Tech November 27th, 2006, 11:13 PM

Here in Aust at least, the public pay-phones are losing something like $600 a week each.
Where did you hear that? I alway thought they would make money by ripping people off as they do. When I put a $2 coin in
and make a call it takes my change even though I have $1.50 left :mad:. It even did this once when I put in a $1 coin.
I was thinking of melting a zinc/copper alloy (forgot the % of each) into a mould the size of a $2 coin then trying that. As it
scans the metal n ot the details on th e coin I see no reason why it shouldn t work.
random136 November 28th, 2006, 02:54 AM

Although I ho ld this on hearsa y at th e m o m e nt, as I don t have any depen dable sources to cite for you, I believe p aypho n e s
stopped giving back change a while back. What with the rise in popularity of phreaking a few decades ago, phone
companies were concern ed that if user end access to the pay phone s cash compa rtment was given, it would wreak havo c for
them. Scenes featuring payphones spitting out change, jackpot machine style, complete with the *ding ding ding* sounds,
when prompted the right code come to mind.
Basically once your coin gets verified, by whatever means, to see if it is indeed the right coin, it goes into a small holding
compartment, where it stays for the duration of the call. You dial your number and one of three things will happen, either it
rings and some one pick s up, or no one picks up when it rings, o r the phone gives off a b u s y tone (if the p hone you are
trying to call is in use).
If either of the last two cases occurs, the holding compartment opens up into the change tray, and you get the exact same
coin back, not another one.
If the call does go through, nothing happens until you hang up, then your coin goes from the holding compartment (the
purgatory o f spare change, as it were) into the pa y phone s b ig, s trong, armored money co mpartment.
That is why whenever you hang up after you finish a call you always hear change cling together when you put the receiver
down . Or so the story goes at least. I don t kno w the specifics of new phones, particularly those foun d in Australia.
There used to be a little rumor making the rounds online long ago, that there is a way to disable the holding compartment
from dropping change into the money compartment. Story goes that you could then subsequently re-enable it at a later date
and get all the chan ge that had becam e trappe d in th e hold ing compartment. If that wa s ever an issue, I m sure most
companies have rectified it by now.
In my humble opinion, the best way to get the change out of a pay phone is the way the phone company does: by opening
up th e pay phone. I mean you re no t robbing a mu seum here. How do you think p h o n e c o m p a n y e m p l o y e e s o p e n t h o s e
suckers when they want to get the money out? Retinal scans?
The only notable security features I have seen on most European, Japanese and North American pay pones, has been
comprised of two things: hard metal plates, and mechanical locks. The former is used to put wear and tear on your hardware,
should you ever try to saw, pry and drill your way through one. The later is used to keep the ignorant out.
It could be one of Medeco s h igh security locks , or a leaver lock, or an Ace lo ck . Altho ugh I personally do not have the
necessary knowledge to prove my claim at the moment, it stands to reason that pay phones could be picked open, leaving
little evidence and practically no damage.
The biggest deterrents to this, I would imagine, are the fact that public phones are usually located in highly populated areas
(they re there to make mon ey after all, and that means clie nts) and the fact th at some locks may be located at od d angles
on the phone making it hard to manipulate your tools.
I could be way off on any of this, but that s just my hypothesis on this matte r.
Chopper November 28th, 2006, 06:12 AM

@ CTech - Ah, 'twas in the news a few weeks ago. The figure per phone wasn't mentioned, but there was mention of the
number of phones and the amount of money that stood to be saved by their removal. I worked it out very roughly to about
$600 a year. Don't forget, just ONE of the windows on the booth is going to cost over $100..
As for the $2 trick, by all means. I'd be interested to know how it turned out. The unique thing about the $1 and $2 coins is
their alloy. It's a copper, ALUMINIUM, and I forget what else, alloy. Without a an inert atmosphere to melt these metals in,
you'll be hard pressed to come up with anything that didn't resemble a big black blob of shit. Similarly, you'll be hard pressed
to come up with an alloy with a similar density. (part of the reason Al was chosen)
You can try melting the copper first using an oxy-torch, before dropping the Al into the molten metal. But BE CAREFULL. The
addition of the cold metal can cause 'explosions' on occasion.
Just check out any basic kids book at the library on metals. Also had the info in the old texts from high-school.
Ever wondered why the $1s and $2s get so badly beaten-up compared to the silver ones? Well, that's why.
If you really want to do a dodgy with Australian currency, you'd duplicate the $200 gold coin. It's 22 karat gold. The gold price
is about $185. You could realistically make $10 per coin. Spending $190 to make $10? Well that's another thing. But it's the
only coin left whose face value is appreciably higher than it's metal value (as far as I'm aware).
-=HeX=- January 3rd, 2008, 05:35 PM

Sorry for bumping an old thread, but I found it interesting. The modern payphones here in Ireland are like army tanks in a
way, armour plated beasts! They are so well protected that even the coin return slot cannot be jammed in any way. However,
for some reason the hinges on the coin box are weak as shit, they are inside the coin box (ie. recessed) to stop people
snipping them.
However, the recessed hinges are brittle and can be destroyed with a good kick to the door, and viola, it opens. Another
technique involves the humble 18mm headed chisel. One meerly prys the box loose, the screws are also very weak and
deform fairly easily. Then one jumps on the door. Viola, instant cash.
The Locks also have loose tolerances and are vunerable to raking. Thats all for now.

On another subject within this topic...
There is a tool that can be used for pulling phones and all sorts of machines: a simple brake seal slam-hammer. This is NOT
the slam-hammer of body work fame but one with a 5kg weight on brass bushings and a true drill-chuck screw holder. THESE
little shits will pull all sorts of stuff out. I'm not talking about lock-box pulling, but the whole phone! The phone is attached
with 4 angle-iron cleats to a wall, etc. If the hammer is attached to the bottom, it will get it started....then the leverage will
allow the rest to get pulled off. You end up with the whole phone to open and sell at leisure.
I'm not doing a good job explaining this but screw it - it was fun a long time back.
A Mexican Peso is a bi-metal coin that has a variety of items made for it like phones. Not being a Mexican and having no use
for their wonderful currency, I thought little of it. However I did enjoy doing things like getting into public phones when I was a
lad.
Woodey January 4th, 2008, 05:30 PM

For get the Phone and go to a laundry mat. I just bought a Lock Pick for the round 7 pin locks on most machines, including
arcade, and soda machines. I tryed this out on 5 locks & was in to all of them in less than 30 seconds, most took 10 to15
seconds so I looked at the keys. Out of the 7 pins 2 or 3 are flush or nearly flush to the face of the key so you only have to
pick 3 or 4 of the pins. I am blown away at how easy it is. After the lock is compromized you tighten the ring around the out
side of the lock pick & you now have a key to open the rest of the machines!!!!!!!!!!
-=HeX=- January 6th, 2008, 04:32 PM

Charles: We do the same thing over here with a tool just like the one you have described to phones. It is a common enough
occurance in the rural parts. And them Mexican coins were handy back in the day for the vending machines...
Woodey: Where did you obtain suck a lockpick? How much was it?
Also, another note to add, nowadays the 'cram the coin return' method is very effective as it is so old fashioned, so give it a
try, I will cover this subject in my future .pdf file...

I believe Woodey's talking about something called an Ace lock pick. They come in 7 or 8 pin configurations and are pretty
damn simple to use. You can buy them where better lock picks are sold near you. Another stylistic joke would be to drill out
locks that could not be picked. This is all in good fun, of course. You simply run your drill through the pins or wafer edges of
the shear line of the lock in question. What a prank...
There are templets for this or when you are aware of the lock's construction, you can just use a center punch to start the drill.
Cobalt bits work very quickly. An average 18v portable drill can get into such a lock in about 30 seconds for real with very little
noise if you cover the drill with a towel. Stick with 1/8", etc, etc.
In addition there are now a series of round-hollow Ace-sized drill bits that are designed to drill out the Ace lock for absolute
speed. They are either cobalt or carborundum in construction and will allow the defeat of the lock within 10 seconds or less
total time. But the Ace key is a superficially undetectable method but it DOES leave tool marks (as does anything;
....forewarned).
gaussincarnate January 7th, 2008, 03:23 PM

Hex:
http://www.lockpicks.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=220
(rather expensive)
http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/lockpicks/tubular_picks.htm
(slightly cheaper)
http://www.lockpickshop.com/TPXS-07.html
Expect to pay from around $60 to $160 (US)
How to use them (and if you are so inclined, enough pictures to make one yourself)
http://www.devonlocks.com/LOCK-PICKING/TUBULAR-PICK-GUIDE/TUBULAR-LOCK-PICK.HTM

Yes thats the pick
http://www.defensedevices.com/tulopi.html
After some more attempts today, I found it can take several attempts to get ti to work. I guess I just got lucky on my first few
locks. I read were they will put different tensioned springs to try to defeat this pick, maybe thats my problem. I'm going to try
a different method, were you pull all of the fingers out & insert then one at a time while applying a little twisting force. This way
I should be able to feel each pin as it meets the shear line.
I bought both the 7 & 8 Pin. Maybe I got lucky on my fisrt few locks because my next few were not as easy. It also could have
been different tension springs in the tumbler that are used to try & defeat this pick. I'm going to try a different method were
you bring the fingers back to start off with then while rotating the pick push each finger in until you feel it at the shear
line.:rolleyes:
gaussincarnate January 13th, 2008, 01:42 AM

It seems to me that picking tubular locks is far more work than it's worth. You would probably be better off just breaking the
lock. Most of the components of tubular locks are hidden from cursory glances, so destroying one does not mean that anyone
will notice, at least not until the next person goes to open it.
I am working off of only a mental picture of tubular locks, but if I am not mistaken, there is a substantially larger gap between
the cylinder and the body of the lock than any other kind of lock. Maybe it would be possible to insert a shim and press each
pin up, one at a time, and lock them upright with the shim. It is much cheaper than using a tubular pick, and just might work.
Then again, my mental picture of tubular locks may be distorted, or I might be hallucinating. Always a possibility.
fiknet January 13th, 2008, 02:23 AM

I am not very knowledgeable on locks but the idea of a lonely payphone sitting there filled with 'goodies' has interested me
:P. The ones here in Australia I believe have a box at the bottom with a square steel door on the face and a small lock on the
side. I had an idea that if one were to fire a small shaped charge down the center of the lock hopefully it would destroy the
locking components and allow something like a screwdriver to be jammed in there and turn the barrel freely, hopefully
unlocking the door giving access to the coinbox. However I think there is also the possibility of the shaped charge doing the
opposite and twisting and distorting the components so badly that it will remain permanently locked.

It seems to me that picking tubular locks is far more work than it's worth. You would probably be better off just breaking the
lock. Most of the components of tubular locks are hidden from cursory glances, so destroying one does not mean that anyone
will notice, at least not until the next person goes to open it..
The best part of the pick, is once you have the locked picked you have a key! How you can relock the money box. A service
like a washer or dryer Unlike a product like a news paper stand is hard to tell how much was used, so the owner may never
really know anyone has been there.:D Plus if there are more than one machine you can open them all with the same picked
key with out having to repick each machine. Also once you leave you can decode the pick & note the settings for reuse at a
latter time or make a real key. Now you can go by any time and be in and out in seconds with beer & pizza money.:D
shadowfax31 January 17th, 2008, 04:44 AM

One of the best forums for lock picking is http://www.lockpicking101.com. From that site, someone posted that tubular locks
can be "picked" by pressing a block of modeling clay into the lock and firing the clay to make it hard.
You then have a key of sorts. Just don't break the clay off into the lock. Also, make sure that the clay is dry enough so that
no clay is left in the lock and so that an accurate impression can be made.
-=HeX=- January 18th, 2008, 05:57 PM
Shadowfax: I dont think that method works, as how does it set the pins to the shear line? Forgive me if I am wrong though.
The payphones lock could be defeated by use of a Liquid Explosive Lockpick maybe,I an sorry for the short post but I am
under a time constraint.
Red boxing STILL works in Ireland, and as 'fortress phones' are still common, a clear box is good as well to obtain free calls.
shadowfax31 January 18th, 2008, 08:11 PM

I haven't actually tried the clay method myself. What I have had success with was a bic pen. The regular white medium pen.
You cut off the end and just shove the pen into the tubular lock and turn.
Now the lock I used it on was a bike lock and because of being able to pick it with a pen, the manufactures have changed the
design. It may not even be of any use on pay phones/ vending machines. If the bic doesn't work on the lock try other brands
of the same design because they are not all equal in diameter.
Another method suggested is to get a good tension wrench designed for a tubular lock and then pick the pins one at a time
like any other lock.
Also, if you go to www.lockpicking101.com , DO NOT even mention trying to pick the pay phone/vending machine. They are
only interested in the sport of lock picking and will not give you any information if you ask about picking those things.
Nyax March 24th, 2008, 08:57 PM

Many pay phone have 8 screws holding the mounting plate to the Booth.
The repairman use the top 6. Seldom use all 8. The mounting plate may be lifted 3/8 inch and it will come off the wall. This is
done so that if some jams the locks the repairman can pull the phone for repair.
This may be done by putting a small screw jack on the shelf under the phone and lifting the phone off the screws.
If taking of the whole phone is an option for someone, I saw someone take off a Bell (Canada) pay phone off a subway
station wall just by pulling real hard on the phone's cord. (it was during a riot)
Maybe it came off so easily because the wall was not very resistant, I didn't have the time to check at that moment, but it is
possible to take (bell) pay phones off certain surface (subway wall) without any tools.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Nitrate sniffing dogs? - Archive File
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BaDSeeD
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: buffalo, ny
posted 05-06-2001 05:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a curiosity question here for anyone who might know something about this. Everyone has heard of the bomb sniffing dogs that they have at airports, and government
facilities, I assume anyhow. Well these so called "nitrate sniffing dogs" seem to screw up a lot of peoples plans. I wonder, I have never heard anything on this before, but can
these dogs also sniff chlorates? I just thought this might be an interesting bit of information.
------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 347
From: UK
posted 05-06-2001 05:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'd expect that the dogs could be trained to sniff chlorates but i think they are only trained to find commonly used explosives (nitrate containing). i think it would take somthing
exotic to get past a sniffer dog.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-06-2001 07:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something as exotic as AP or HMTD!
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
posted 05-07-2001 01:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I live not too far from a canine training center run jointly by US Customs and BATF. Several years ago I got to take a tour of the facility, listen to a presentation and observe
some of the training excercises.
On the BATF side, dogs are trained using samples of real explosives, live ammunition, and various unspecified (precursor?) chemicals. The training begins with basic substances
and simple rewards, but progresses to more unusual or lesser-known chemicals. By the time a dog "graduates", it is able to distinguish trace amounts of a wide assortment of
explosive materials masked with other scents, including perfumes, household cleaners, lubricating compounds, human sweat, etc. They even train using substances sealed in
"airtight" plastic bags and shrink-wrap packaging. The handler will even know from the dog's reaction if an unusually strong non-explosive scent is present, and infer a possible
attempt to "mask" something else (such cases are singled out for a more thorough search).
I don't know whether the dogs are trained to react to Chlorates specifically, but the collection of samples I saw and the on-premises chem lab were pretty impressive. I think
I'd have to assume they train on pretty much everything. Remember that the dog is aiming to please (and looking for a treat), so if it errs at all the result will be a "false
positive" rather than the other way around.
BaDSeeD
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: buffalo, ny
posted 05-08-2001 11:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm...
Well it was just a question out of curiosity, but thanks everyone for the replies.
I'll try and research it a little more. Maybe i can find some diffinate answers. But i would like to assume that they search for just about everything.
Seems like a lot of smells for a dog to get to know, i just wondered where the gaps were.
------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.
jin
Frequent Poster
Posts: 111
From: uk
posted 05-08-2001 02:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i dont know about the dogs but when the police searched my house they used a eletronic sniffer and the first thing they checked where bottles of perfumes aftershaves and
spirts.
jarynth August 6th, 2008, 09:48 PM

Let's put these dogs to the test! The next time you catch a plane, smear trace amounts of a known substance on your clothes. Beware not to carry with you anything suspicious
that could be found during a search, so if the dog reacts, it will readily be deemed a false postive. You could also try varying amounts of the same substance, using different
containers (strictly devoid of anything illegal inside), etc. to probe the dogs' sensitivity.
totenkov August 7th, 2008, 01:17 PM

Intentionally impeding my air travel to see what a dog would be attracted to seems to be a rather large inconvenience and waste of time. I have never actually seen dogs at
an airport, but my air travel is minimal.
The kind of sniffers utilized today are electronic, most effective for seeking out nitric esters like Nitrophenols and Nitroamines. However I am not exactly sure why you would
even care what the dog was attracted to, unless you are looking to blow a jet out of the sky.
Lewis August 8th, 2008, 04:53 AM

Indeed, the nose of a canine is an amazing thing. Still, I wouldn't expect a dog to be able to actually distinguish a functional group from the substance in question. Instead (and
probably more useful to the authorities) they are familiar with a huge assortment of different explosive substances, regardless of their chemical makeup.
I would assume organic peroxides would be among the easiest substances for a dog to smell due to their volatility and distinctive odor to even humans.
On the other side of the coin, advanced technologies may make a reading purely on chemical indication, which, while being perhaps more sensitive to some compounds, may
fail completely at detecting a nonstandard explosive like a peroxide.
A more interesting discussion would be good excuses to throw out when such chemicals are detected in trace amounts on your person. A trip to the farm? Cat piss? Recent
practice at the range? Heart medication?
While some excuses are chemically plausible, they may only further arouse suspicion as to how you have such knowledge in the first place.
Alexires August 9th, 2008, 01:18 AM

It would be interesting to walk around the airport terminal with a couple of spray bottles of 5% NG in an ethanol solvent, perhaps some MEKP (diluted) and various other nitro
groups, amines, or whatever else the dogs are trained to smell. Start spraying it on seats, other people, luggage, etc.
Otherwise those toilet seat sprays (to disinfect) in bathrooms could have a 5% NG/Ethanol solution injected into it. The soap bottles in the bathrooms, cleaner supplies,
anything is a target.
Imagine the BATFE dogs with that? Or those electronic sniffers.
Even the fed goes for a shit and comes back with an ass smelling like nitro and peroxide :D.
megalomania August 10th, 2008, 02:12 PM

A chemistry professor once advised my class, which was about to break for a holiday, that since we had been working with silver nitrate in the lab to watch out if we fly. Our
shoes would have had trace amounts of nitrate possibly detectable by airport security.
I once read that explosive sniffing dogs are able to distinguish about 10,000 different compounds. I didn't know there even were that many different explosives. There certainly
are tens of thousands of chemicals which are capable of exploding, but the number of actual commercial or military explosives is a small fraction. Still, to go through all that
trouble to train the dogs to detect such a staggering number of chemicals is astounding. Bomb sniffing dogs are, compared to drug sniffing dogs, extremely rare.
DetaDude August 10th, 2008, 02:48 PM

On a recent airline trip with a stopover in L.A. my wife and myself had to get re-screened when we boarded the next plane for the final leg of our trip. We both went through
the TSA bullshit xray with flying colors, only to have my wife pulled aside and subjected to a going over with an electronic sniffer with negative results, when my wife
questioned then about this they said "...it was a random check for nitrates and explosives".
All of this made me wonder if the machines can hit on other compounds than nitrates, it would be interesting to test the limitations of these new explosives sniffers. Maybe by
just rubbing a test compound (non-toxic) on your clothes or skin before you go to the airport for your next flight. Just points to ponder.
Secong Nature August 11th, 2008, 07:54 AM

I read, possibly in another thread that it is more often the plasticizers im some explosives that are detected. Going through a scanner with a homemade chlorate/wax explosive
sounds like a viable option.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Rotational casting of EFP platters
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nbk2000 June 17th, 2003, 06:40 AM

A question came to my mind, after reading the copper furnace thread, of what to do with it once you had it melted.
First thing that came to my mind was EFP platter!
But, in order to deform into a proper EFP slug, the platter must be thicker in the center than the edges, and taper evenly from the center outwards, otherwise the slug doesn't
form symetrically, thus being unaerodynamic and lopsided, resulting in poor performance.
http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/Furnace_Rotational.jpg
Rotational casting seemed like a simple solution for the home experimenter to use. The mold is spun in two axis's at once, both parallel to the ground, and vertically. The two
speeds would need to be adjusted so that there is only a slight difference, with the fastest being the parallel, so as to cause it to be thrown "out", creating the thickest part
towards the center of the platter, while the vertical spin causes the platter to be tapered towards the edges.
The mold is attached to a small electric motor which spins the mold, and the the motor is itself mounted on a board that is spun upon a central pivot, with a lead counterweight
on the end of the board opposite the motor to provide balance.
Natually, you must spin the whole assembly at sufficient speed to keep the copper from pouring out of the mold, while NOT spinning the mold so fast that the copper creeps
out up the sides of the mold. Molten copper splatter would likely hurt...:eek:
Since I got this idea from an SciAm Am Sci article, I thought it only appropriate to create an illustration worthy of such an illustrious publication. :)
Ph3Ar |\/|i p|-|0+O$h@P! $k!L|_Z! :p :D

I don't think I understand this properly. Why can't you just make the necessary shape using a dish-shaped greensand mould?
DBSP June 17th, 2003, 08:08 AM

It does seem a bit to complicated to fully function in a home workshop, although I belive it would work really good if you could get it all together.
http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/EFP_platter_mould.JPG
This would be a bit simpler.
I was just wondering about what materiel to use for the mold. Clay would probably work.
I wonder if regular (white) modelling plaster would work? It would be great scince its so easy to work with. The problem might be that it perhaps wouldn't stand the heat and
crack. I've been thinking about making one of these moulds for SC cones for a while now and I might just try it soon.

Greensand (http://backyardmetalcasting.com/greensand.html)
Observer June 17th, 2003, 11:38 AM

Tell me, what kind of shape are you striving for?
http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/EFPs.jpg
I'm simply interested in why you choose that specific shape of the liner.

A light gas gun would require WAY more work and expense to beat the 2 km/s of an EFP slug, and you can't really shoot projectiles weighing a pound out of one. Light gas
guns are good for top speeds, but not so good for KE.
But with a good mould and design you could churn out potentially tank-busting EFPs for a few each.
I imagine a backward fold design would be the most likely to work for us. I don't know why, I just think it'd be easier to fold something than to make it flow, especially if using
ANNM or other similar explosive that doesn't quite have the power of HMX etc. For this you would want highest power directed at the centre of the disc, with slightly less at the
edges (but not too much difference or it'll stretch out and break mid-flight), and a normal "hemispherical" wave front, such that the front hits the centre of the disc first. I think.
I've been looking for ages to try to find a good description of the dimensions of an actual platter, but have not been able to find one :(.
nbk2000 June 17th, 2003, 11:10 PM

When you mold cast a metal, it contracts towards the center, from all directions. This introduces stresses in the metal that could be detrimental to the formation of the EFP
platter.
Rotational casting counteracts this by using G forces to force the metal to cool in one direction only, from the edges inward. This isn't my idea, I just cribbed it from some
patents that mentioned its use for such. :)
Also, one spin mold can create many different platters since you can vary the speed ratios between the two axis to create platters that are thin centered/thick edged, or vice
versa, or even all the way across. This allows you to tune the platter to the job, assuming you've performed enough empirical tests to know the variables.
You could simplify this by setting the motor-mounted crucible vertically, which still allows you spin taper the platters edge thickness.
Practice using wax, instead of copper, would allow you to see the difference spinning makes.
Now, the Big Boys use metal spinning of solid metal plates to do the job, but this may be a bit harder than casting since it requires applying significant angular forces on metal
plates at high rotational speeds. Bending a metal plate isn't easy, and gets downright dangerous when it's spinning, since the stress may cause the plate to frag.

Would a cast platter, rather than one formed from a sheet, be brittle?
I imagine the platter must be fairly flexible to form properly in flight, and casting seems to produce more brittle materials.
That said, I haven't much experience with cast copper, maybe it is like lead and doesn't go brittle?
nbk2000 June 19th, 2003, 07:40 PM

Any time you work copper, you have to anneal it, to restore it's softness, because it does get brittle.
Stick the platter in an oven set at max, heat for an hour, then turning down the oven by 50°F/hour, will remove the hardening.
A patent mentions the use of a buffer plate made of aluminum to transmit the explosive shock to the copper platter without shattering it. If you can melt copper, you can
certainly melt aluminum.
Another patent uses inner-tube rubber as the buffer. So there's all kinds of ways of doing it. :)
The simplist platter to make is the backward fold, which is also the most penetrating. Forward fold is better for smashing through masonry, but we'll get to that later ;), right
now the goal is to punch through metal plate.
kinetic July 18th, 2003, 10:31 PM

I think Anthony's right. According to my demo manual and the way I was always taught, you can't use cast metal for a platter. However, nbk2000's method may hold up- i've
never tried it so i won't say that it won't. If you actually try this, please post results!!
nbk2000 May 17th, 2004, 01:01 PM

I've found a huge copper EFP platter, ready-made, at K-mart! :)
It's 30" in diameter, 13" in depth, and costs $70. It's solid copper spun from a plate, and has nice curvature.
Given it's size, it'd have a penetration capability of a foot of steel plate and a meter of reinforced concrete at 100 meters. Not too shabby for a K-Mart product. ;)
Though it's normal price is $100, so stock up now. :D

What is the actual product/use? I doubt they would be selling these for use as EFPs :D
On a side note I was thinking it could be possible use the bottom of those small gas cylinders you push into camping stoves. Maybe electro-plate them as you mentioned.
nbk2000 May 17th, 2004, 08:03 PM

Decorative lawn fireplace/beer cooler. :rolleyes: What a useless use of a useful product. :D
You mean the little propane canisters?

Yea the ones which have no regulator and get pierced with a spike when fitted into the stove. I can't get a pic of the one I have but here is another one "similar" to mine.
http://www.preparedness.com/coldualstov.html
See that it has the metal casing for the explosive already attached and the underside is curved inwards, perfectly centered in the casing which will be the template for the EFP
to be electro-plated onto.
I had a quick go at electroplating one of these with copper but I encountered a problem. There seems to be some kind of material coating the bottom of the template (only the
bottom). It looks like metal but it will not conduct electricity. I thought maybe some kind of plastic but no solvent I have can remove it.
I have no idea what this is or why it is only on the part I don't want it to be on :mad: but maybe it could be polished off.
Anyways I just sanded it off and did a very bad job of plating it. It was extremely uneven and it didn't stick very well. :( Well it really needs to be done properly with
electroplating chemicals, low voltages etc.
nbk2000 May 18th, 2004, 06:09 PM

It might be laquer or enamel, requiring mechanical removal.
It might not be copper, but even steel will work, as long as it's got the proper curvature and isn't hardened.
If you want to try electroplating, get a book on the subject, as there's many variables to the process that need to be just so for it to work well.
Dave Angel May 30th, 2004, 08:59 PM

I realize that this has got a little off topic, but as we are on the subject of electroplating, I've had very little success with my few attempts to make EFP platters (and SC liners)
via electroplating.
I've been sniffing around google a bit to see what I could find on the subject. One forum I came across is full of arrogant bastards, only my opinion ;) who work with it at an
industrial level and tell anyone who says "I want to try a bit of electroplating at home" that it is very dangerous and you can get acid splashed in your eyes and that cyanide is
bad for you etc etc. :rolleyes:
Fortunately the above mentioned forum had a link to a yahoo group which actually dares to give information to would-be home electroplaters:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electroplating/
I've had a look at a few of their files, including some giving details of plating solution compositions, surface cleaning and preparation, power supply construction and current
pulsing. It's all rather informative and worth looking into if anyone wants to take this further without having to fork out for books/find them in the library.
Something of note is that copper sulphate plating isn't very effective unless something called a 'strike' is made with a copper cyanide solution first, though I think this can be
over come with professional (expensive) formulations. Copper pyrophosphate is possibly a better option as the strike can be made using a dilute solution of the plating solution,
thus one stock solution is all you need.
I'm still not sure whether to invest in furnace construction or the electroplating method but I'm leaning towards a furnace as I will probably have more uses for that. It depends
how much it'll all cost and how much I can scrounge. Still, electroplating looks good because under the right conditions you can plate a good quality layer of ductile copper.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > arc cutter? - Archive File
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A-BOMB
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 137
From : wouldn't you like to know
posted 05-25-2001 03:52 PM
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I was reading in this old science book at the lib ray and it decribed a arc cutter tha t
could cut through 2/16" of steel like a thick tin can, but the thing is that it ran off a 6 volt dry cell. But the instructions to make
it where missing (well it and the rest of the boo k and the cover so i don't knoiw what it was nam e d ) b u t i t s o u n d e d c o o l
s o a ny one know how to m a k e o n e o f t h e s e ? I m agin welding locks shut with it or that stuff. So any body got any ideas?
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb
BoB-
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 679
From :
posted 05-25-2001 07:03 PM
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Sm all plasm a cutter maybe?
CodeMason
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 383
From : Your Nightmares
posted 05-25-2001 08:30 PM
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It sounds like a "carb on arc" cutter, wh ich creates a carbon plasma which is tremendously hot and can cut through m ost things
with ease. In structions for building these are easy enough to find.
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 05-26-2001 12:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
uh a carbon arc cutter would drain a 6V lantern battery alm ost instantly, along with the high voltage needed the thin g would
need an insane am ount of am perage.
Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
posted 05-26-2001 12:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's right. They are sim ilar to welders in that they use high am perage and low current in order to generate the vast am ounts
of heat required to m elt steel. You would need a sm all car battery to have any hope of m a k i n g a p o r t a b l e o n e , a s t h e h i g h A /
low V is used to drive the starter motor. It'll still drain in n o t i m e , t h o u g h .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > surviving air attacks - Archive
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m adman
New Mem ber
Posts: 15
From : austra lia
posted 05-28-2001 08:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello all,just wondering... I wa tch the news every night and take interest in the war zones around the world especially Guerrilla
warfare.Now it seems when ever the governm ent forces fight back they pound the area with artillery, tanks and air support
b e f o r e s e n d i n g i n t h e troops,now we all know the carnage of explosives I wonder how the hell those fighters survive.Where the
h e l l d o y o u g o w h e n b o m bs and gunfire is everywhere?What are the guerillas tactics when that type of shit goes down.
Foodos
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Posts: 210
From :
posted 05-29-2001 12:02 AM
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m any use the same tactics that have been used over tim e, like vietnam , wwII, and m ore, dig in, d ig out a hole larg e e n o u g h
for you to fit in, and pray a sh ell doesn't directly land in it, you should be relatively safe as the shrappenel goes over you.
build a trench, with angled enforced roofing, or a shelter, various things like that, otherwise their isn't m uch you can really do.
S a n d b a g s a r e a b i g p l u s , i n t h e m a n y b o o k s o n vietnam I read sandbag bunkers were the best, while concrete was the worst,
as the shrapenel would richochet like crazy in their.
Maddoc
Moderator
Posts: 537
From : D i z n e l a n d
posted 05-29-2001 03:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You run down a hole like a Nigger runs from the cops after raping a white girl.
------------------
W hoa, where m y fingers?
AR-15 Man
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 180
From :
posted 05-29-2001 04:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You might wanna build som e sand bag bunkers. Make sure they are cam oflagued good. And they have enough dirt around
t h e m t o h o l d in the heat of your infare d signature. If you heat shows up a gunship is gonna fuck your day up. R e m e m ber after
the air raid they are gonna send in armor and troops. As a guerilla you shouldn't be in cities to begin with. If you are find a
good basement. And don't fire back at jets or helicoptors unless you have heavy weapons cause you will just end up dead.
S a m e goes with tanks. Sorry guys sticky bom bs, m oltovs, ect do n't work on m o d e r n t a n k s .
m adman
New Mem ber
Posts: 15
From : austra lia
posted 05-29-2001 05:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T h e a r m y reserve had a open day down here and I was checking out the arm ored cars each vehicle had a little poster board
explaining what was what,the armour is 50mm com pacted alum ium . I v e g o t t o s a y t h o s e A P C s d o n ' t l o o k v e r y s a f e I l o o k e d
inside and it was very prim ative.You cant even see in all directions and I wouldn't like to b e i n s i d e o n e e v e n u n d e r g u n f i r e . B u t
they are pretty quick and can drive over just ab out anything.W hat the hell are those helicopter gunships do ing when they fly
over and fire flare type things from the sides near the back they appear to go sid e ways b u t d o n ' t e x p l o d e .
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
posted 05-29-2001 05:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maddoc! How Dare you, that was an ex pression used in the Anarchists C r a p B o o k !
A n d M a d m an, those flares are m eant to draw Infrared (Heat Seeking) antiaircraft missiles. There are some m issiles and
rockets that are programm ed to follow heat and whateve is hot will be the missiles target, like a helicopter engine, or a Red
hot burning flare 200 feet away from the helicopter, so it draws heatseek ing missiles awat from the aircraft, I hear some
c o m m ercial planes are equipp ed with this to in case of some terrorist attack or so m e t h i n g .
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y e n d o t h e r m (edited May 29, 2001).]

Gollum
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 92
From :
posted 05-29-2001 05:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm pretty su re you can buy therm a l b l a n k e t s f r o m W a l - M a r t o r s o m e t h i n g like that, fairly cheap. T hey'll stop the IR signature.
A good guerilla arm y trains right out of the U .S Arm y fie ld manuals, with regular practice. Make mo difications depending on
your equipment and situation.
Air attacks are very bad, but because you are a guerilla arm y the planes dropping ordnance will m o s t l i k e l y d o a " d u m b " b o m b
run. Meaning just flying over you and letting loose. Of course, if you have a few m ortars or home-m ade howitzers, etc. with
special flak rounds, you can give them a very hard time . They don't deal too well with big pieces of m etal h itting them at those
speeds.
The key to survival for the offensive guerilla is being mobile. This m eans you have very little for defense. You shou ld read
this: http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm /21-75/Appd.htm ; M o v e m ent in Urban Areas, from the U.S operations m a n u a l .
The pro in urban com bat is that in any north-western hemisphere country, the police force or m ilita ry won't shoot up their own
city.
You can forget about it in a place like Brazil or R ussia, etc.
I'm in the process of finding a copy of the Guerilla Warfare minim anual. It's decent, but it's quite clear that the author had no
*actual* kno wledge of the weapons he was using (C alling ak-47's m a c h i n e g u n s ) .
I'm currently writing m y own Im provised W arfare m anual, I'll release it as soon as it's com pleted.
AR-15 Man
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 180
From :
posted 05-29-2001 09:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G u y s o n e p r o b l e m with therm a l b l a n k e ts is that they cause a cold spot. That is just as bad as being hot. But if build i n g a
shelter you can use less dirt if you have one of them. R e m e m ber you ha ve to be the temperature of the stuff around you. Or
you might as well be hot.
Machiavelli
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 281
From : Germ a n y
posted 05-30-2001 12:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm in the process of finding a copy of the Guerilla Warfare minim anual. It's decent, but it's quite clear that the author had no
*actual* kno wledge of the weapons he was using (C alling ak-47's m a c h i n e g u n s ) .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you do just one websearch you'll find dozens of sites that have the "Minim anual of the Urban Guerrilla". But please tell m e
where Marighella calls an AK a m achine gun. I think your statem ent that he had no actual knowledge of his weapons is bullshit,
after all, he fought fo r several years and died in the Brazilian gu erilla war.
m adman
New Mem ber
Posts: 15
From : austra lia
posted 05-31-2001 07:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is a very good read,thanks for the tip off Machiave lli.Are there any other urban Guerilla manuals floating around.I have a
couple of the paladin press Guerilla m anuals-150 Questions for a Guerrilla & Guerrillas in the m i s t , t h e y a r e b o t h g o o d b o o k s
but they are geared around the old style of fighting-full jungle style since I live in t h e u r b a n a r e a I f o u n d t h e m i n i m a n u a l
excellent with original ideas presented nowhere else.
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
posted 06-01-2001 06:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"an expression used in the cookbook"
it's still a good expression, isn't it?
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
posted 06-01-2001 08:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A a a a h , W a d d a W a d d a B i n g B a n g , n o w t h a t i s a MotherFucking Expression!!!!!!!!
Mad Dog
New Mem ber
Posts: 32
From :
posted 06-07-2001 01:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
O K I a m R u s s i a n a n d I have some relatives wh o were in the chechen war. One of the things chachens did is not hold buildings
but would run after a short firefight and as soon as the building was cleared thay would reoccupy the building (using the
sewerage system or some over covert m e t h o d ) s o t h e R u s s i a n s h a d t o r e c a p t u r e t h e s a m e b u i l d i n g s e v e r y d a y . A l s o t h a y
would positio n a sniper and a man with a m a c h i n e g u n i n a s m any buildin g s a s p o ssible so there is no central point (no use
destroying a building for just two wen).
By n ot having central points the chachens were able to starch the Russian fire over a large aria. So remem b e r n e v e r h a v e m o r e
t h a n 4 - 8 m e n i n t h e s a m e p l a c e , m o v e a n d c h a n g e p o s i t i o n s a s o f t e n a s y o u c a n , a n d r e m ember hit and run, Not stand and
fight!
stickfigure June 18th, 2003, 06:31 PM

I've been reading som e bom bing assements done after the Afgan and Iraq wars and for the m ost part the people on the
ground these days don't survive. A Special forces A-team was working with a large group o f Northern Alliance, and a even larger
g r o u p o f T a l i b a n a n d A l Q u e d a f i g h t e r s c o m p o s e d o f r o u g h l y 2 4 t a n k s a n d o v e r 1 ,000 men that were m oving in on their
p o s i t i o n . T h e T e a m called in a strike from a B-52, they released a string of 500lb e r ' s s p a c e d a b o u t 1 2 0 f e e t a p a r t a n d a b o u t a
m ile long. Once the dust cleared there was nothing left of the Taliban line, all equipm ent and troops were annihilated with no
friendly causaullities. From what I've read the Taliban was really bold at first because the Soviets could never really hit them.
Intel photos showed them using old craters for bunkers and them actually would sit outsid e at first, because they were sure
that we couldn't hit th em. Now their tactics are hit and run, small bom bings and hiding within the population generally chicken
shit tactics. So m uch for Divine intervention.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Explosive Metal Form ing
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Here's a real world explosives application for th ose who are bore d with making craters, or dem olishing trees.
Explosive m etal forming is a method of super-plastic form i n g o f m e t a l s h e e t u s i n g explosives to p rovide the force / energy.
This link outlines the process nicely.

Overview of explosive m etal forming (http://www.m etalwebnews.com /howto/explosive-form i n g / e x p l o s i v e - f o r m ing.htm l)
I had a friend who wa s c o n s i d e r i n g m a k i n g a l u m inium canoe hulls this way, as there would be no below waterline we lds or joins.
Anyone played with this stuff before?
knowledgehungry June 19th, 2003, 12:21 PM

I have never Tried this but SW IM was once playing with APAN in a watch, and when he detonated it the back piece of the watch
bent in a U-shape over the wristband. SW I M h a s b e e n t h i n k i n g a b o u t m a k i n g s o m e S C c o n e s u s i n g e x p l o s i v e s . P e r h a p s o v e r
the sum mer.

I've tried ma king an EFP platter, it was only about 5cm a c c r o s s s o I u s e d c o p p e r s h e e t a b o u t 0 . 2 m m thick. The charge was
tiny, quarter, m a y b e h a l f a g r a m at m o s t , s e p e r a t e d f r o m t h e m etal by a few cm of flour/water paste. The m ould was plaster,
m ade using a light bulb.
Anyway, upon detonation the m o u l d b r o k e a n d t h e m etal was totally ripped apart.
But if you m a d e a c o n e b y f o l d i n g a s h e e t o f m etal, the n you might be a b l e t o s e a l t h e e d g e s t o g e t h e r , t o f o r m a s e a m l e s s
cone, by overlapping them by a m m and explosively we lding it with a few layers o f tissue paper soaked in NG over the
overlap...
nbk2000 June 19th, 2003, 03:42 PM

E x p l o s i v e l y f o r m e d s h a p e s a r e d o n e u s i n g m achined steel form s. The form is either pum ped to va cuum , o r h a s m a n y h o l e s
drilled in it to allow th e air to escape when the m etal is driven into it.
T h e m e t a l f o rm s a barrier between the form an d the water in the cham ber above it. The explosive charge is placed in the water
and the hydrostatic pressure induced by the explosion deform s the m eta l into the form.
Also, there's all kinds of lim itations on what kind of shapes you can produce, due to elasticity, ductilility, m alleablility, etc. Too
thick, it won't deform . Too thin, it'll tear like tissue paper. You got to be like goldielocks and get it just right. ;)

shaped charge cones anyone :confused: ???

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Button cell battery ignitor.
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Observer June 19th, 2003, 06:09 PM

Clear
Tuatara June 19th, 2003, 06:19 PM

You would probably get better results if the ignition mix is in intimate contact with the filament. This will maximise heat transfer before the filament gets hot enough to burn
away. Your NC laquer idea sounds good, possibly you could use several coats to get some thickness. Maybe a mix of NC laquer with powdered match heads?
Observer June 19th, 2003, 10:16 PM

Clear
yt2095 June 20th, 2003, 08:55 AM

another low voltage ignitor (bewae though, static can set them off!) are the old flash cubes or flash blocks.
disassemble the casing and remove the bulbs each has 2 wires attatched, you dont want the sort that has a tiny black stick at the base, those are precusion sensitive only)
each buld has a bluish plastic coating, that to stop the buld exploding when it fires (it`s extremely hot!)
you need to remove this plastic, a sharp knife and a trist will do this easily, all you have to do now is extend the wires and coat the bulb in whatever composition is appropriate
for the explosive your using.
your NC and acetone laquer`s a great idea too!
i don`t think you can buy these flash bulbs from supermarkets anymore, but a camera shop will have plenty :)

Observer, why have you created a new thread and then removed your posts from it?

observer this thread is now meaningless thanks to you. don't post info if you don't intend to keep it up for atleast a little time for people to read.
nbk2000 June 20th, 2003, 10:01 PM

Jesus christ...couldn't even wait one whole fucking day! :mad:
Selfish, greedy, kike motherfuckers who think that somehow what they've got to say is SO fucking important that it mustn't be allowed to exist for others to see, lest they
somehow despoil it by knowing it too.
Of course, this is only after it's been flaunted so everyone else can see just how WONDERFUL they were for thinking of it in the first place. :rolleyes:
This reminds me of someone else who does/did this sort of thing.
Instant ban for this selfish bastard!
nbk2000 June 21st, 2003, 06:47 AM

Tiny squibs made from christmas lights and set off by watch batteries, complete with lots of pictures.
Surely someone saved a copy of it, or has it in their browser cache?
nbk2000 June 21st, 2003, 11:06 PM

Well, whatever it was, the point is that the selfish bastard deleted it all to keep anyone else from benefiting from it once he had his answer. :mad:
DBSP June 22nd, 2003, 04:34 PM

Actually he deleted his posts because he got fed up with this place and not because he is a selfish bastard. And if you don't remember who observer is I can give you a hinch,
his name starts with xoo and ends with 1246. Not that you give a fuck about it off course.
But it's not the first Sr. member that gets fed up with this place...
kingspaz June 22nd, 2003, 04:39 PM

what was he fed up with?
nbk2000 June 22nd, 2003, 10:49 PM

what was he fed up with?
Who cares.
Not that you give a fuck about it of course.
You're right, because he brought it on himself. We don't owe anyone anything. If they don't like it here, they are free to leave. Just like we are free to be rid of them. :)
Considering how we're gaining 50+ people a week, and assuming only one in a hundred is anything extraordinary, then we're gaining 26 extraordinary people a year. So the
lose of a couple of extraordinary people here and there per year really doesn't affect us in the least because we're gaining many more than we're losing. :D
Also, if someone doesn't like it here, yet has spent the time and effort to establish themselves as a respected member, then why sign up as a newbie, act like an asshole, then
bitch about getting banned which is the inevitable fate of an asshole newbie, as any senior member knows? :confused:
If a respected member has a complaint about something going on here, then they can tell it to staff, either publicly by posting a new topic, or privately via e-mail to staff.
Believe it or not, we actually do listen to people who are worth listening to. The fact that he decided to renounce his status as a senior member by starting over as a newbie
does not exempt him from the standards that have always been applied to newbies, especially be being "incognito" and not telling any staff about it.
I'm know of several senior members, and former mods even, who started over with new names, but they told us (staff) about their new usernames, and behaved as senior
members should, so they've had no problems.
If you feel disenchanted with the Forum as well, then please feel free to leave at any time. This is a strictly voluntary association. We don't want people who are going to be
bringing a negative attitude to poison us with their negativity too.
If you or he feel that you can do better than here, go for it. Start your own forum, run your own website, and run the site how you see fit. And after a few years, tell us how
you feel when some unappreciative bastards says that you don't know what you're doing, and that they're fed up with your place. :p You'll probably feel rather pissed at
them...rather like how I feel right now about him and you.
Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that NO one here is indispensible, with the exception of mega (of course). If someone here has authority over others,
it's because they've EARNED it, over years of service towards the forum, and repeatedly demonstrating that they can be trusted to use this authority to the benefit of the
Forum. If a few people get a prima donna attitude and some delusional belief that the Forum will collapse without their God-like wisdom being bestowed upon the rest of us,
and proceed to get all pissy when they're proven wrong...:rolleyes:
DBSP June 23rd, 2003, 07:13 AM

I don't know exactly what he got fed up with, he never told me that allthough he has complained about the forum in general the last months.
He didn't sign up again because he wanted to do so, his account got fucked up and he was unable to login/post or do anything.
He did actually tell us all that he had changed his nick just after he did it.
And please don't think that I would like to start my own forum. Making a better one is impossible, there are simply no other people who would be able to scrap a new forum up
(except if the elite from this forum would join to make a new forum together).
However this place isn't quite what it used to be, I can't say why but thats just how it is.
There just doesn't seem to be any people who are willing to actually help eachother anymore to actually accomplish something real. Like it used to be with the trinade project
for instance.
I belive that we have enaugh knowledge in this forum to actually be able to make a fully functional EFP or SC for instance. But there seemes to be little interest in actually
accomplishing that.
Scince you brought the rotational casting idea up I've made a mould and somewhat succesfully cast an SC cone (http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/kon) , its far from
perfect but definately a step in the right direction. And I'm about to make a second mold of a slight different construction to make it a bit better.
Thus I have come a step closer to actually accomplishing something, however from my own experiense there would be very little interest from other members to try to
replicate my tests or make it better, why put any effort in that when we can discuss "National Vegan Day" or other similar important things that happen in the world of
explosive science?
There are off course exceptions but unfortunately they arent to many.
kingspaz June 23rd, 2003, 08:22 AM

DBSP, thats a nice cone you got there. keep up the good work. i should have some time this summer and cash this summer so expect some attempts at various things.
i do agree that there doesn't seem to be the same spirit here anymore. come on people, lets see some technological advances!
'Believe it or not, we actually do listen to people who are worth listening to.'. nbk, i agree. if any senior members have a problem with the forum they should get in contact
with the staff. then if the problem is fixable we well fix it. if people have a problem then just leave instead of even trying to sort it out then it gets nobody anywhere. the
forum will still have the same problem and the member will not have the forum.
Anthony June 23rd, 2003, 04:09 PM

There will always be flucuations in the kind and extent of activity here...
Don't forget that theforum is still elvolving. It probably isn't much past childhood in terms of its potential development.
I for one have loads of projects I'd like to try, but unfortunately before I lacked the money and now I lack the time :(
nbk2000 June 23rd, 2003, 06:40 PM

Is it aluminum or zinc? I see the batteries in one picture, are they for scale or the source of the metal used? But it also looks like one of the cones is made from aluminium foil.
How did you get the concave shape? By pressing the (glass?) cone into the molten metal in the mold?
Anyhows, it looks like a good start. However, the cones have obvious voids in them, presumable air bunnles or imperfections in the mold, that would be detrimental to
performance. But it beats the present lack of liners, so it's all good. :)
I belive that we have enaugh knowledge in this forum to actually be able to make a fully functional EFP or SC for instance. But there seemes to be little interest in actually
accomplishing that.
I know I do. And the only thing holding my progress in accomplishing this is the lack of funds. It's hard to divert money into EFP experimentation when you're living in poverty.
The only reason I'm even on the net is 'cause I'd go crazy without the limited social interaction I get through the Forum, which is $20/month I could be better using for food.
If I ever won the lottery, you wouldn't be seeing me here as often, because I'd be out all day blowing shit up in my (7,000 acre) backyard or cooking stuff up in my lab! :D
Though I'd appear ocassionally to post some new article on the construction of some device, complete with streaming video tutorials from my private server.
PRAY I win the powerball lotto. It's now 110 million. :eek: I'll keep playing it till someone wins it. I'm not a gambler myself, but I figure the expense of $2/week for the chance
to win such a huge amount of money (or a portion of) is worth it. I only play when it gets over 80mil (which is rare) so I'm only risking maybe $20/year.
Even winning the $100,000 prize (1:500,000) would be an astronomical change in lifestyle for me, meaning a whole lot of experimentation.
Of course, I'm not putting my faith in winning it, since it's such a long shot chance at huge money (1:125,000,000). I'm still working on financial improvement through more
modest and realistic means, ie. crime.
I'm afraid that most of our members are in the bind of either living at home (meaning no privacy) or living on their own (no finances). It's the rare member who has both the
privacy and finances to be able to experiment.
I've occasionally had the finances, but that was when I didn't have the privacy. Now I have neither privacy (sharing a house) nor finances (shitty part-time job), so I can't do
much more than theorize at the moment.
How about you DBSP? Do you still live at home, but have parents who don't mind, and have a disposable income (allowance)? Make the most of it while you can. If you've got
your own place, and have a job that makes you enough to be able to experiment, than I envy you.

The National Vegan Day thread is in the Water Cooler. It's there for a reason.
Any explosive ideas or helpful contributions I have are posted elsewhere. I'm 100% dedicated to organic chem. I'm sure others share my view.
As for privacy and finances, i'm a college student. That means I have no privacy AND no finances. But plenty of time to learn, and some good reasources. (Chem lab, anyone?)
DBSP June 24th, 2003, 09:27 AM
I'll start a new thread about the cones soon so I won't explain it all now. I made a nother mould yeasterday, worked reasonably but there still are problems with it.
The cones are lead btw, just for the ease of the low MP of it.
The batterys simply happened to be there, they serve no purpose.
I'm one of the ones fortunate enaugh to have both a mother who knows I can handle these things and therefore lets me do it and a really nice large house to make things in.
+ the fact that I there aren't really many who live around here except the 200 in the vilage I live in. If they hear a bang they'd probably assume that someone is out hunting
(during hunting season of cource) or that someone (me) is out shooting clay pigeons which I often do.
I have however become more and more carefull and I mostly detonate my charges under water to keep the nois down just in case.
E&W isn't my main intersest either really but still a very heavily rooted one. I'm a hunter and have always been one. This is what most of my time goes to. I'm out hunting
more or less every day from the 16 of august to the last of february. And in between I'm out investigating what anmimals there are and where they are.
The downside of hunting, at least where I live it's very expensive hunting. My best friend and I had a little barbecue and had a couple of beers the other night and we started
counting how much money we have spent the last 3 years on hunting, including: weapons, money to pay for the right to hunt ammo etc. and we came to the conclution that
we had spent about 6000$ each and thats 3 years!! I have to pay 460$ by to morrow for the hunting rights, that sucks.
So you see if I hadn't been a hunter I would have had quite a lot of money to put into my explosives. I was very close to have lost my hunting area this year and if I had lost
it I would have had more money but now I don't so...thats just the way it is.
Now, it may seem like I'm a rich bastard but thats far from the truth. I'm a student and don't get much money. My mother have been on sick leave for more than two years
now so she doesn't have much money. She used to be a teacher untill her occupation broke her down so hard that she couldn't work anymore.
The reason I've got the money to hunt is that I'm a hard working boy. I work as much as I can and whenever I get an opportunity to do so.
Btw I don't think that you understood my writings Kid Orgo, no matter in which section the "The National Vegan Day" thread is posted in it still hasn't got anything to do with
E&W, thus it doesn't belong in this forum. The reason this forum is called the Explosives and Weapons forum is that it is about explosives and weapons and not a bout vegans,
end of discussion.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > R esettable Master Combo
Lock Defeat - Archive File
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nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From : G u e s s
posted 06-03-2001 05:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After a trip to W ally-Mart to buy locks for disection, I developed this sim p l e m e a n s of determ ining the com bination for this type
of lock (seen below). Equipm e n t n e e d e d i s a d i m e o r s i m ilar thin coin and a flash light.
SEE ATTAC HED IMAGE or go to http://www.hpionline.com /lock_images/lockerlock/1520D.jpg
I e x a m ined the internal disks after removing the numbered whe els and noticed this pattern:
a b c d=======2 9 4 2....combo5 2 7 59 6 1 9
The pattern is that the red m arked nub (of which there is four) is followed by another nub 3 spaces away (in increasing order)
a n d t h a t o n e is followed by another 4 spaces away which is three spaces away from the com b o n u m ber.
Knowing this, I random l y m i x e d u p t h e d i s c s a n d s l i p p e d t h e m o n w i t h o u t s e e i n g o r f e e l i n g , r e a s s e m b l e d t h e l o c k , a n d l o c k e d

it to a hasp. After setting all the discs to 0-0-0-0, I proceeded to take a dime, we dge it in between the disc wheels to m a k e a
gap, and slowly rotate the wheels, looking for the nubs in the gap.
If I saw a nub, I'd rotate it to the next num ber 3 spaces away, and look for a nub. If there was a nub, I'd rotate another 3. If
there's a nub, then the last num ber was a num ber in the combination. If you go four spaces between nubs (ie. 5 -> 9) than
t h e n e x t n u b is a com b o n u m b e r .
Of course things are m uch easier if you see the red paint on a n u b b e c a u s e t h a t m e a n s i t ' s a c o m b o n u m b er, but som etim e s
you can't see the paint because it's wo rn off or there's too little of it on a nub.
Once you've gotten three num bers just apply pressure and turn the last wheel till the lock pops open.
W ith a little practice, I was able to get the lock open in about a m inute. This beats the defeat in m y PDF of burning off the
disks in that no sm oke is produced which could draw attention. And after you've o pened the lock, you can relock it and reopen
it whenever you want and no one will know that their shit's been tam pered with.
This would be good for planting things in a locker for the police to find after an anonymou s tip (get rid of school bullies with
drugs, not bullets ) or for stealing at gym s a n d h e a l t h c l u b s . I ' v e e v e n s e e n p e o p l e l o c k u p bikes with these locks.
I've posted a short rough video (no so und)showing the lock and what the technique entails at m y video link below.
------------------
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y n b k 2 0 0 0 ( e dited June 03, 2001).]
-Onthefringe-
New Mem ber
Posts: 13
From :
posted 06-05-2001 11:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NBK:
This same type of lock is comm only used on briefcases as well, and this method works even easier on them.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Cellular RF Converter - Archive File
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PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 06-08-2001 11:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recently I have been looking for a way to make the 800 MHz band get down converted to 400 MHz. I found a file on an rf converter but I am unsur if it would work beacuse it
came from a PhReAkErS page (nothe the kewl capitilization) I want to know if anybody thinks this will work or if they have any experiences with downconversion for scanners.
SCANNER CONVERTERS FOR CELLULAR TELEPHONE
This article is presented for information only. The new Electronic Communications Privacy Act makes it illegal to monitor cellular telephone calls.
A UHF TV tuner can be used as a converter to listen to cellular telephone calls. Salvage a UHF tuner from and old TV set. Connect it to a power supply. Typical voltage
requirements are 12 - 25 volts. If the set is still working, measure the voltage before removing the tuner. Connect the output cable from the tuner to the external antenna
input of a scanner or tunable monitor. Tune the scanner or monitor to a frequency between 41 and 46 MHz which is the IF output of the tuner. If you are within a few miles of
a base station, a pair of test leads clipped to the antenna terminals of the tuner will serve as an antenna. Turn off the squelch on the scanner or monitor and carefully tune
through UHF channels 70 - 83.
It is easier to use a tunable monitor than a scanner for this application because the monitor allows you to compensate for drift in the tuner. Either will provide an adequate
means of checking out the cellular activity in your area.
There are several crystal controlled converters available which will convert cellular frequencies to the UHF range of many scanners. There is a slight problem involved with
these. The spacing between cellular frequencies is 30 KHz. Most scanners have a stepping interval of 12.5 Khz at UHF. This means that on most channels the frequency tuned
to by the scanner will not be a perfect match. I have been assured by one of the converter manufacturers that this is not a serious problem. When using this type of converter,
the scanner can be used in scan or search modes as usual.
I wanted to find out how much discrepancy exists between the output of the converters and the tuning intervals of most scanners. I took the specs of a typical converter and
put my computer to work doing the calculations. What follows is the result of this examination. Listed are the cellular base frequencies followed by the frequencies after
conversion followed by the closest tuning point of a scanner with a tuning interval of 12.5 KHz. Each of the base frequencies listed is paired with a mobile frequency located 45
MHz lower. The mobile frequencies are not listed.
All 666 base frequencies were checked. Only the first 33 of these are listed. The pattern repeats throughout the list.
CELLULAR FREQ. CONVERTER OUT CLOSEST SCANNER FREQ.

------------- ------------- --------------------
870.030 486.030 486.0250
870.060 486.060 486.0625
870.090 486.090 486.0875
870.120 486.120 486.1250
870.150 486.150 486.1500
870.180 486.180 486.1750
870.210 486.210 486.2125
870.240 486.240 486.2375
870.270 486.270 486.2750
870.300 486.300 486.3000
870.330 486.330 486.3250
870.360 486.360 486.3625
870.390 486.390 486.3875
870.420 486.420 486.4250
870.450 486.450 486.4500
870.480 486.480 486.4750
870.510 486.510 486.5125
870.540 486.540 486.5375
870.570 486.570 486.5750
870.600 486.600 486.6000
870.630 486.630 486.6250
870.660 486.660 486.6625
870.690 486.690 486.6875
870.720 486.720 486.7250
870.750 486.750 486.7500
870.780 486.780 486.7750
870.810 486.810 486.8125
870.840 486.840 486.8375
870.870 486.870 486.8750
870.900 486.900 486.9000
870.930 486.930 486.9250
870.960 486.960 486.9625
870.990 486.990 486.9875
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
posted 06-09-2001 02:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't see why the UHF tuner thing wouldn't work if used with a decent crystal converter. The step differences could present a problem though, in terms of distortion. Here's a
way to get around that.
The frequency difference between the 30 KHz cellular spacing and the 12.5 KHz scanner interval forms a repeating 5-step pattern ranging from -5 KHz to +5 KHz. It's already
necessary to switch either the converter or the UHF tuner back and forth 45 MHz between the base and mobile frequencies, and a similar switching technique could be used to
adjust the converter frequency to compensate the step differences.
Even the tightest crystal oscillator can be capacitively tuned ("rubbered") a little to either side of its "natural" frequency, so it's a matter of using switching diodes to connect the
necessary capacitance into the oscillator's resonant circuit at a rate synchronous with the scanning rate. If you have access to the scanner schematics, find a pulse or logic
output that can be used to drive a 5-place counter or shift register, and use the outputs of that to forward bias each diode in turn, thereby connecting a miniature trimmer
capacitor (4 required) into the appropriate place in the converter oscillator circuit. (Pay attention to phase and watch out for propagation delays when designing this.) Using a
frequency counter, adjust each trimmer capacitor to give the desired frequency change.
This step compensator would provide a repeating pattern of converter-frequency adjustment as follows:
Step 1 = -5.0 KHz (capacitor in)

Step 2 = +2.5 Khz (capacitor in)
Step 3 = -2.5 KHz (capacitor in)
Step 4 = +5.0 KHz (capacitor in)
Step 5 = +0.0 KHz (no capacitor)
For example:
CellFreq * ConvFreq * ConvOut * ScanFreq
870.030 * -5.0 KHz * 486.0250 * 486.0250

870.060 * +2.5 KHz * 486.0625 * 486.0625
870.090 * -2.5 KHz * 486.0875 * 486.0875
870.120 * +5.0 KHz * 486.1250 * 486.1250
870.150 * +0.0 KHz * 486.1500 * 486.1500
(Repeats)
Depending on how the 45 MHz base/mobile frequency shift is to be accomplished (switching the UHF tuner to a second "preset" would be the most straightforward), either one
or two such switched compensation circuits may be required.
[This message has been edited by c0deblue (edited June 09, 2001).]
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 06-09-2001 04:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my scanner pickes up 300-999 mhz fm only, but the cellular is blocked from 824-849, I can still pick up handsets but with no frequency counter that is pretty much impossible
to try and track someone.
also my scanner can listen to two frequency's at once but 500-900 it can only work on one band. the 500-900 band was enabled by software on my computer loading onto my
scanner/transcever it also picks up 10 weather channels, the aircraft band (only one in am)I can pick up 400-500 on one side and 435-454.99 on the other simultaniously
playing. the frequency spacing is adjustible on the 400-999 band 10.0, 12.5, 20.0, 25.0, 30.0, and 50.0 so channel spacing wont be a problem.
I dont understand exactly what I am saposed to do with the uhf tuner from an old telivision, I hook it up to a voltage supply and it will convert 800 mhz to 400? where do I put
the oscilator? I dont know much about rf circuts. BTW my scanner/ ham trancever is an IC-W32A
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
posted 06-09-2001 05:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My bad! The UHF tuner is used (alone) only if you want to convert down to 41-46 MHz (as clearly stated in the article) - with a proper crystal controlled converter the UHF
tuner is unnecessary. I should probably learn to read better - or at least more carefully
With dual frequency monitoring in the 400-500 and 435-454.99 MHz bands, and with 30 KHz frequency spacing selected, it looks like all you'll need is a single cellular-range
converter to feed the antenna input of your scanner. You should be all set without further ado.
Informative links:
http://pages.citenet.net/users/ctmx0718/Scanner/cell.html
http://www.hackerscatalog.com/model.htm
And here's one with everything needed (including a pcb layout) to roll your own!
http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/sitepages/pdf/hmanuals/scn-1-4a.pdf
Happy Scanning!
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 06-09-2001 08:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I tried to order from ramsey kits but since 1994 it has been illegal to make or manufacture devices that can easily convert cellular frequencyes to be in the clear.
the problem with the pdf is that the schematic on the othere side is missing and the pcb is two sided! they only show one! I read that ramsey electronics had been raided and
concequently their scanner kits were taken.
the problem with image frequecncy listening is that post 1994 scanners have something like 39 dB image rejection traps in them. my scaner being an intermod magnet I dont
think I'd want to remove that even if I could.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Thermal Imaging (FLIR) - Archive File
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frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
posted 06-20-2001 06:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hmmm, this is interesting...every sniper's worst nightmare, and it can spot out to 800 m
I notice two was sold at ebay at $5000 and up.....darn, had I known that the one cop uses.
Anybody knows where to get it cheap (at least under $5000), improvise,usw http://www.x20.org/thermal/
http://216.22.251.97/thermal-imaging-nightsight.htm (this was the one at ebay)
[This message has been edited by frostfire (edited June 20, 2001).]
A-BOMB
Frequent Poster
Posts: 137
From: wouldn't you like to know
posted 06-20-2001 08:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just get a infrared black and white camera and one of those 2.5 or 3 inch handheld TVs with a video jack and presto.
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 06-21-2001 01:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
no, they are not the same thing, the ir sensitive cameras are not really ir sensitive they are near IR sensitive, it is technically still light, you just cant see it
as for FLIR cameras 5000 bucks is a cheap one,they are insanely complex and require cryogenic cooling just to run
ANTI-SYSTEM
Frequent Poster
Posts: 77
From: FL. USA
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-21-2001 01:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wow thats an all to reel theat to me. what are chances PDs might have these?
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 294
From:
posted 06-21-2001 01:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
alot of police helicopters have these built into the nose
------------------
if our society had shown me a path other than violence, I would have taken it.
angelo's place | have a good link? add it here | go to the OZ Forum
ANTI-SYSTEM
Frequent Poster
Posts: 77
From: FL. USA
posted 06-21-2001 02:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i know that but what about the cars?
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 06-21-2001 02:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
no, that would be very expensive and I dont think the cop cars have enough space to mount one, some new cadilacs (sp) I think came with a HUD and an automatic thermal
imaging camera that let you see animals in the road, for one to work in a car it must be placed ahead of the engine to see well or else your sensor will get blinded
A-BOMB
Frequent Poster
Posts: 137
From: wouldn't you like to know
posted 06-21-2001 12:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PYRO500 its on the cadilac ascelade and its in the grill behind a cadilac crest.
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
simonmagus
New Member
Posts: 16
From:
posted 06-21-2001 02:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i've been wanting one of those damn things for a long time but never had the $$$. I've seen some for around $3500 but i don't think they are in real time. i think that the
refresh rate is low, i can't remember it's been a long time.
they do put them on cop cars but it's rare, i've seen pic..
and i think somethin' like that comes on the new hummer h2.....?????????
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
posted 06-22-2001 04:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen and looked through a very good Thermal Imaging Camera(worth about $100000 US dollars).There fucking awesome.I wish I had one.
Demolition
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
posted 06-22-2001 09:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
where? industrial or electrical factory???
since that the most common usage
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
posted 06-22-2001 09:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A friend of a friend brought this one overseas.(He's got a thing for gadgets)
Demolition
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
posted 06-22-2001 09:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also,I noticed on the second site you mentioned that they sell Bomb Suits.
pangos_59 June 22nd, 2003, 12:23 AM

In WW2 the germans created an experimental suit with small carbon fiber threads and it reduced
ir emmissons. Hmm I'm thinking that maybe if a sniper had one of these there would be a difficult time finding them if u were a pig.
GibboNet June 22nd, 2003, 03:01 AM

Modern army cams have a built in IR 'dampener' if that's the word.
I know for a fact that Australian army "auscams" have built in IR suppresion, but don't know about other countries. I'm assuming larger countries like the US and UK would
have similar.
I think someone mentioned this in another thread, something about not washing them much to keep this effect in place.
zaibatsu June 22nd, 2003, 08:38 AM

The problem is not hiding your IR signiture (well, not really) it's making your IR signiture the same as your surroundings.
Russian surplus anti-IR suits are available in the UK, however, they work by containing your heat, so I'm guessing you'd get pretty hot.
stickfigure June 22nd, 2003, 09:07 AM

Our BDU uniforms work to this effect like I've stated before they have to be new and unwashed and not starched. Also the new JLIST NBC suit have carbon fiber infused into a
second liner that might help to keep you IR signature low, besides keeping NBC out. On top of all that you have a layer of BDU material that is IR resistant. I'm not sure how it
works that just what I am told when I get new BDU's and go to a combat area.
nbk2000 April 15th, 2004, 01:23 PM

Thermal imaging googles are now available. :)
www.nivisys.com
Look for the TAG-7 link, under "Thermal".
AA battery powered, helmet mountable, with video output and LCD eyepieces. Best of all, real and available, though don't ask for how much. :eek:
MightyQuinn April 15th, 2004, 01:53 PM

Check this bad boy out.....
Click on the Pit Viper.
--------------------------------------
Edit:
Here is more choice information on the subject of FLIR.

http://www.opgal.com/te_flir.htm
---------------------------------------
http://www.firstchoicearmor.com/html/pro_helm.htm#
http://www.firstchoicearmor.com/html/popups/images/helmet_1.jpg
http://www.firstchoicearmor.com/html/popups/images/helmet_text_1.gif
nbk2000 April 15th, 2004, 07:26 PM

Looks poorly integrated to me.

Is it legal for an American civilian to buy thermal imaging scopes (weapons sights)? I don't think I've ever seen one for sale on the internet. Even the goggles on the site that
NBK pointed out don't have a listed price.

Thant's because you are looking at over $8000 dollars for even top of the range NVG. FLIR/TI is even more, upwards of $30K. I've played with one of the high-end cameras,
and it is scary. You can see your hand through a hundred pages of A4 in a few seconds, cups of water in plastic cups seem to float, as the thin plastic is invisible (even more so
than glass, as there is no refractive effect!) and you can see where someone was sitting minutes ago. Weirdly, you can even see footprints in some places, due to the tiny heat
transfer between the indoor shoe and the colder outdoor grass/concrete. The temperature variations are tiny, but it picks them up easily.
If you have the money, you can look through almost anything. I've seen cameras that can see through cars (see the thread on backscatter x-ray) and ones that can see
radioactivity directly, telling the viewer what type of material it is doing the emitting. That camera has a remote tripod that costs 15,000 + VAT list price! The camera is
150K. I have yet to get prices on the backscatter stuff.
Millimeter wave is the next goal, which lets you see through clothes, but metal shows up brightly, ideal for spotting concealled carry without having to throw x-rays around.
ossassin, as far as I know, the USA has a federal law against letting you have an IR laser or goggles. You can buy Gen 3/3+ NVG, but not export it. Not sure about weapon
sights. I think they might be LEO only. NBK will probably know.
NBK, that looks pretty state of the art to me. Last set I played with was far bigger than that, and it had the actual thermal imager attached to an aircraft, with just the semi-
transparent mirrors and video displays on the actual helmet. Personally, I would rather the IR was in the gunsight, but that's just me!
ossassin February 9th, 2005, 08:29 PM

No, I've seen Gen 3 and maybe even Gen 4 scopes for sale to civilians, so they must be legal. It's a shame that TI is outlawed in the US. Why wasn't it all over the news when
they passed that law?

ossassin, yes, you can buy it, but not export it. I don't know the status of TI. You could always build your own, of course.
pangos_59 February 13th, 2005, 07:09 PM

Osassin you still believe what the media is telling you? Tsk.tsk.tsk.www.disinfo.com (http://www.disinfo.com/site/Topic18.html)

FLIR and TI are in the category of "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it.". :)
'They' have no need to make it illegal, as it's SOOO expensive that anyone who could afford it is probably part of the system, thus no threat.
Once it gets down into a couple grand, then it might become illegal, as it'd be within the reach of the average criminal.
As for improvising it...erm, I doubt it...but anything possible if you're willing to dedicate the time to it. There are people building Tunnel Scanning Electron Microscopes out of
Radio-Shack type parts for a few hundred dollars, duplicating $100K machines (in principle, NOT performance!). :D

Anyone who wants an expensive FLIR device can check out dovebid.com There is an upcoming auction for a FLIR camera.
I almost bought a Kodak 14n 14 megapixel camera last week, but they auctioned 2 cameras in the same damn lot. They went for $2200 for the both of them. That's a great
price for 1 let alone 2 :( I didn't know at the time, but I could have auctioned 1 off at ebay for $2500 and got the other scott free.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > R adio Frequency Detector/Bug
Sweeper - Archive File
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megalomania June 21st, 2003, 01:33 PM

X-5
New Mem ber
Posts: 3
From :
posted 06-16-2001 06:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone out there know how to build a rad io frequency detector?
I f s o I c o u l d u s e s o m e schematics as to the pa rts and connections and what not....Appreciate it, th a n x
jin
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 113
From : u k
posted 07-07-2001 02:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this com pany sells a kit bug d etector
www.quasarelectronics.com
yt2095 June 22nd, 2003, 07:43 AM

probably the easiest RF detector is ma de with a simple swing arm m eter and 2 germ anium d i o d e s
i`ll TRY draw it;
(meter + term inal)-----|<------O ------|<-------(meter - terminal)
connect a wire antena at the O point.

t h e g e r m a n i u m diodes are the large glass type found in radios, there is a line on the body of the diode closer to one end, if it
was on the right the diagram would be;
----->|------
the m ore sensitive your meter the better results you`ll obtain at a greater distance.
if yo u`re using a VOHM meter put your setting on the m ili amp range or Micro am p range if you`ll lucky enough to own one
that sensitive.
it will also do u b l e u p a s a m icrowave leakage detector :)
all the best :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Fingerprint chem ical - Archive
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megalomania June 22nd, 2003, 02:32 PM

Metal
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 137
From : I'm everywhere.
posted 07-06-2001 10:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just finished watching a show on US currency and in it they stated that whenever the Secret Service finds a counterfeit bill they
place it in a solution that reacts with am ino acids on the bill that when he ated shows all the fingerp rints on it. Does anybody
know what chemical this is, an d if it works on all types o f paper or only on the kind they print bills on?
c0deblue
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 229
From :
posted 07-07-2001 12:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe Ninhydrin is the one that reacts with am ino acids, but n orm ally a print exam ination would be done using m ost, if not
all o f the too ls available - iodine fuming, silver nitrate, cyanoacrylate, excimer laser fluoro metry, etc.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Liquid Explosive Lockpick
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THErAPIST June 23rd, 2003, 05:16 AM

With the recent talk of liquid lock pick using MEKP I thought some experim ents should be done using AP to defeat locks. I was
thinking of a way to put the AP quickly into a lock when I remem bered the little bowl of binder that had been seperated from
the ASA in aspirin. I thought about how I could use the binder from aspirin to bind some AP into a "stick". I put some AP into a
beer bottle cap and added a very small am ount of the binder to it. I then added a few drops of acetone to the binder/ AP
mixture and then I stirred it a little bit to m ix things well. I then took some modeling clay and pushed a sm all divot into the
modeling clay. The divot was about 1m m d e e p b y 2 m m wide and about an inch and a half long, give or take a few tenths of a
m m from depth and width. I then scraped the AP/binder m ixture into the divot and slightly pressed it with my finger to m a k e
sure there were no spaces in the m ixture. After it dried I removed the now formed LPS or (lock-pick-stick) from its mold and
inserted it into an old padlock. I inserted a length O f fuse into the lock so that it was as close to the LPS as it could be. I set
the primed lock on the ground, lit the fuse, and stepped back. BANG! It was kinda loud for such a sm all am ount of AP. W h e n
the lock was picked up and shaken after the LPS went off, things could be heard rattling around in the lock, and the lock could
be opened easily by a simple turn with the tip of m y picket knife. I'll take pics when I get som e more HCL to m a k e m o r e A P .
Note: The LPS was placed as closely to the pins in the lock as possible.
Any ideas that m ay improve this?
Jhonbus June 23rd, 2003, 08:47 AM

Wow, I didn't expect this to work with such a small amount of explosive. If it works, then there isn't much need for
im provem ent in that aspect, is there ;)
Try it on a few m ore locks for good measure?
Ah yeah, m a y b e y o u c o u l d m a k e m oulds for the LPS by pressing various key blanks into the clay, that would maximise the
amount of explosive in the lock and the proximity to the pins.
So you could have a keyring of explosive keys, just take the one that fits the lock and slip it in.
Arthis June 23rd, 2003, 09:25 AM

Considering the num ber of different type of keys, it would be difficult to have all keys. A few selected usual shapes could be
useful. Despite handling those unstable keys would be pretty scaring... Imagine it detonates due to friction while putting it in
the hole ?
THErAPIST June 23rd, 2003, 09:44 AM

I can imagine that having a LPS go off in your hand could be pretty painful but as of now I don't know how sensitive they are.
When i make more I'll do various tests. Throw a couple, hit one with a stick, drag something over it...

A little while ago, a user named NeoSanity420 suggested that cyanoacrylate (the main ingredient in super glue) could be used
to bind AP to desensitize it. In a W C thred, NBK, working off of the MEKP/AP idea brought up by zippoxiv, suggested that MEKP
and NG could be poured into a lock and detonated as a easy way to destroy a lock.
There was discussion on sealing the lock to prevent the explosive from s e e p i n g o u t .
My suggestion is this: Could these two ideas be com bined? A liquid solution of MEKP, NG, and superglue kept in a sealed
bottle, carried to the site. Pour it into the lock, the superglue hardens the whole mess, slap a cap on it and blow it off?
Or is this complete bunk?
nbk2000 June 23rd, 2003, 06:40 PM

The only tests that matter are those of inserting the LPS into a lock and having the pins scraping the top. If it doesn't blow...:)
I would advise cutting a strip of very thin plastic and attaching it to the top of the LPS. This would protect the LPS from pin
friction and possible prem ature functioning (blowing off your fingers). Possibly, a wax coating by dipping it in melted wax would
also help prevent friction initation.
http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/LPS1_W M.gif
Also, m ost keyways are not straight slots, but have bends to them. This would make trying to cast an LPS in the sam e s h a p e
as the real key rather im practical.
RTPB "K.I.S.S."
http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/LPS2_W M.gif
Rather than casting a com plicated shape, just m ake a generic booster stick. This would be of the same width as the target
keyway, and sized to fit into the lower half of the keyway, while the LPS fits in the top part with the pins.
You would place the fuse in the gap created by the bend in the keyway, with the LPS up top, and the booster underneath, and
seal the whole assembly with a blob of clay or some other tamping m aterial to direct as much of the blast into the lock
assembly as possible.
What about using it as a paste? The AP would be very finely powered and m ixed with a bit of binder m aterial and MEKP solvent
into a thick paste and stored in a syringe. The fuse is placed into the lock, and the paste injected till it fills the lock, then
tam ped and blown.
You're obviously not going to be using a syringe needle to do this, nor are you going to be storing this paste for months
ahead of tim e, or subjecting the syringe plunger to any sudden whacks, so I dont' think there'd be any serious risks of the mix
x
exploding in the syringe.
You could reduce the risk by using an extension on the plunger so your hand isn't holding it. If it explodes, there's nothing but
some very light plastic fragm ents being propelled by a gram or two of explosive m ore than a foot from you. You might get
some scratches and ringing ears at worst.
Tuatara June 23rd, 2003, 09:25 PM

I'd imagine the cyanoacrylate would harden imm ediately when mixed with MEKP and NG. Its an anaerobic adhesive - cures in
the absence of oxygen.

What I was thinking was that the MEKP/NG would be mixed in an anaerobic envt with the glue, perhaps injected into the glue
bottle through the tip? Then again, it might not be particularly wise to put that mixture into a syringe. Any thoughts?
Perhaps there's a better glue to put it. Or a two part epoxy-like solution, wherein each would be injected seperately into the
lock in a MEKP/NG m ix.
zippoxiv June 23rd, 2003, 11:28 PM

The need for a MEKP/NG mix m ight not be present. Nbk2000 mentioned the loose tolerances with a padlock, and I can say
from experience that when filling it with a liquid it will seep in and find a lot m ore room than needed. The results can be called
overkill at least... THErAPIST and his lock pick stick idea m ay not be enough to bust into som e of the m ore stubborn of
p a d l o c k s s o a h a p p y m edium would be nice.
The idea of a binder to m a k e t h e m i x m ore viscous is a good one, it would allow for one to lim it the charge to only what was
necessary (well maybe a bit more than necessary :rolleyes: ). The problem with trying to limit the am ount of liquid explosive
inserted is that it tends to flow away from the keyway, and into the farthest corner it can find, this creates a scenario where you
may not get a detonation unless you fill it up enough to ensure contact between the fuse and com pound. A gel like or even
cream y consistency would be nice, the am ount of binder could be high because there is lots of room to fill, and not too much
bang needed.
From what I have heard, NG is one of the most powerful explosives around, so there is definitely not a need to bring in that
kind of power. As I stated on the AP pennies thread, the MEKP/AP solution will reduce a #5 m asterlock to a pile of plates and a
shackle. If anyone needs more proof just tell me where I can post some pics and I'll present nice before and after shots. I
may even take up a geocities account just for that reason, although if I could do it by som e easier m ethod that would be nice.
zippoxiv June 23rd, 2003, 11:51 PM

I'm surprised nobody suggested AP putty as a solution, the NC binder would be more energetic than the starch used to bind
the aspirin. Still fuse sensitive and a bit more resistant to friction the NC bonded AP could fit the bill.
The need to have the exact blank for the lock would not be too tricky assum ing that before you blow the lock, you at least
take the time to recon the area a bit. A key ring of explosive keys is out of the question, but a hard case filled with foam
would be useful to hold 3 or 4 different styles of masterlock keys. The hard plastic style "Pelican" cases come to mind, they
are waterproof and quite durable, although you pay for the quality. They come in a variety of sizes, even ones appropriate for
a cell phone.
The idea of casting a key is not exactly a recent development, but this is the first tim e the topic of casting a key out of
e x p l o s i v e s h a s c o m e up. The CIA Field-expedient key casting m anual com es to m ind if one wanted to put some time into the
concept. Your exposure tim e at the scene will be reduced if you have already scouted out to find out what type of lock it is, and
all you need to do is stick in a hom e m a d e b l a n k k e y m a d e o f A P p u t t y r a t h e r t h a n m ess with gels and syringes and the such.
For an all purpose solution I use the sim ple MEKP/AP mix, if planning is called for then taking the time to make the m old, cast
the key, and do the job right is worth the payoff.

Overkill m ight be the way to go, however. If I were conducting a raid on som e well fortified location, I would want speed and
effectiveness as the primary attributes of any solution to the lock problem. Squirt it in, slap a cap on it, step around the corner,
a n d W HAMMO .
You have a good point tho, if an injectible foaming high explosive mix could be made, that would be cool. That's just a first
reaction, however. No idea how the science of that would work.
Nihilist June 23rd, 2003, 11:59 PM

If you already have a mold of the key for the lock, why not just m ake your own key and open it that way?.. It's pefectly silent,
much safer, and faster.

Why attack a lock at the key hole? Why not mold the putty around the part of the lock that is a sim p l e s t e e l h o o p , a n d b r e a k
it?
That lockpick stick, if properly m ade and standardized might definitely be m ore useful than a bottle of NG and MEKP dissolved
in some sort of glue. I just thought about how great it would be to try kicking down a door or som ething with a bottle of
u n s t a b l e h i g h - e x p l o s i v e o n m y back.
nbk2000 June 24th, 2003, 12:58 AM

And what's the purpose of the glue?
To keep the liquid explosive from pouring out.
Therefore, use a thickner, not an adhesive, to hold it in place.
One very ready thickner is the PIB used in poster putty, better known as "Blu-Tak", though it can be any color really.
M
Search!
I just had to say that before you asked "How do I...". It's already been highly detailed.
Use a low percentage of PIB to thicken the liquid to a snot-like thickness and squirt it in the hole. I'm assum ing a person isn't
going to be taking hours between squirting the stuff in and blowing the lock, correct? If it stays in place for 120 seconds, that's
likely m ore time than needed to do the job. :)
BTW, it's nice to now have an OTC source for PIB. Now I just need to find an OTC source for TEA and I'll really be rockin'! :D
THErAPIST June 24th, 2003, 01:01 AM

It's nice to see that people have taken an interest in this topic. Peroxide is being boiled to a useful percentage as of now so
that tests can be carried out tom orrow with AP LPS's. NBK, I will test the plastic lining tomorrow. To anyone who has any PA or
PETN or the like lying around, would you mind testing the booster stick? I at the m oment can't m ake any PA to test this. I
think I MIGHT have som e PA in a jar but I'm not about to go out into the woods at night to see if I do. Also, Would anyone
like to try to make a LPS with another prim ary? DDNP could have benefits over AP since it has a higher velocity and slightly
better brisance. W e all also know that DDNP can be stored for longer periods of tim e than AP so it would be the better thing for
a LPS. I would greatly appreciate any team work that can be done on this. I would do all the testing m yself but I have a VERY
limited budget for the next few weeks. But I'm still trying to throw some ideas into the wind here and there to see how they fly.
EDIT: To Kid Orgo. Attacking the keyhole in a lock would be better than attacking the shackle on a lock for a number of
reasons. The shackle is MUCH thicker and MUCH stronger than the pins in the tum bler. Another reason is because it would
take less explosive to break the pins which would mean less noise and the like. W ould You rather carry around more explosive
to m ake a god awful bang, or less explosive to m a k e a s o m ewhat loud bang which could be tamped and m uffled far better
than the larger amoung of explosive? I would usually say that more is better when it som es to explosives just to ensure that
the job would be done, but in this case it's a better idea to go with the elem entary school rule about glue... "A little dab will do
ya". :D
nbk2000 June 24th, 2003, 01:37 AM

Since the two threads were convergent, I've joined them to sim plify discussion.
zippoxiv June 24th, 2003, 01:56 AM

wow.. yeah the joining of the threads happened when i was in the middle of formating my post, I'll just post as is, too late to
go through makeing changes.
alright... a few things to clear up...
Nihilist: the idea was that you would only be able to eye up the lock itself, not the key. If you could narrow down the brand and
style of lock, you could most likely go to Km art or the such and take a look at their selection of blank keys that would fit the
bill... but of course if one could m anage to borrow the key, m ake a few m e a s u r e m ents, they could easily produce a key from a
soft m etal or ever plastic.
All you need the key for is to set the pins and allow the mechanism to turn, I have accom plished this with cutting up a CD into
.25 inch strips (or any other standard key size) and using a file to cut the individual teeth. If you sand down the plastic strip
thin enough it will bend its way into pretty much any twisty keyway, and if it is a simple Masterlock or house key m imicking the
tooth pattern is not difficult. You sim ply have to measure the distance between pins as well as the height each pin is set at
(distance of the tooth from the baseline.) Most low security keys only have pin heights that go in 1/64 or even 1/32 inch
increments, knowing this you could even develop an eye for the needed offset.
Its a lot easier when you can work with the key, file, and lock all at one tim e, so practice with your house key to get the hang
of it. sim ply use the plastic key m ockup to set the pins and turn the lock with a screwdriver, you should be close enough to be
able to open it w/ a bit of force.
and wow.. Kid Orgo... I sure hope by "sim ple steel hoop" you don't m ean the 3/8 inch hardened steel shackle because then
bring on the best HE you can m ake for a LSC because that fucker isn't going anywhere fast. The m ain theory to defeat locks is
to go for the weakest part.. that is if they buy a 20$ super strong masterlock but attach it to a 3$ latch just use a pipe wrench
to hook onto the lock, and get the leverage to twist the lock off. I can assure you the weakest point will alm ost never be the
hardened steel shackle. The reason the MEKP/AP solution is so effective is because it is placed on the inside, an exterior
placed charge with the hopes of defeating the shackle is sim ply laughable... you would have an easier time, and probably
more fun blowing a hole in the wall and m aking your own door (it also does have its tactical advantages).
With the small room to work with you are almost always forced to use sensitive explosives. The idea of going to a booster type
charge is a getting more complicated thatn neciscary. Sim ple prim aries get the job done. And kid orgo I as well would not be
too quick to kick down a door with such things on my body, but I'm not sure why your kicking down the door after you just blew
the lock but to each his own... Som e c o m m on sense is all that is needed though, carry the charge to the site and be careful
not to trip, rem ove the lock, and set any leftover explosives to the side. Unless your plan on running into another lock why not
just dum p what you have leftover, or if your supplies are lim ited let them sit a safe distance away while you get done what you
need to do.
As a final note, I threw a before and after set of the latest lock I did away with, here (http://www.geocities.com / z i p p o 1 6 2 0 /
pic.htm l)
if that doesnt work just copy and paste... http://www.geocities.com/zippo1620/pic.html
Thats the result of a MEKP/AP m ix, I took the tim e to weigh the ratio and weigh how m uch charge I used, but the paper is
eluding m e right now... I'll look for it in the m orning if there is a need.
Edit: nbk, the pics were from m y 3.21 mp digital camera, I'm thankful I took them down from the 800kb size they started as. I
used paint shop pro 7 by Jasc software to compress them b y a b o u t 8 0 % , a l t h o u g h y o u s e e m t o l i k e p h o t o s h o p I h a v n t h a d t h e
time to take on that massive of a download. I would compress them even more but you allready did that for me, thanks

NBK: I wasn't going to ask. I have found the search button, thanks to the exam ple of countless kewls who couldn't.
TheRapist: Very good point. I was thinking in terms of reliably opening the lock, like, doing it for sure every tim e ( a n d , a s y o u
said, in the proccess making a huge m ess/noise). If you use enough explosive to really fuck up it's innards, it really is the
I
e
M
better way to do so.
Zippo: I was talking more in a general way. A person getting into a building that is fortified would have a lot of physical work
on their hands, and a bottle of high-explosive isn't exactly something I would play volleyball with. But you're right, with the
right precautions, you'd be okay.
And as for the shackle, I was being slow
NBK: My bad. I'll stop posting for a while. For the record, i'm down with a killer case of strep and bored as fuck. .
nbk2000 June 24th, 2003, 02:36 AM

It seem s like the best thing to do would be to use the two ideas together.
You would inject a gel made from one of the below listed explosives into the lock, filling it as much as possible, prior to
inserting the detonator. The liquid explosive would be of such viscosity that it wouldn't drip out of a vertical hole (like a
hanging padlock) for at least two m inutes.
listed in approxim ate order of power
MEKP+PIB
MEKP/AP+PIB
MEKP/NG+PIB
NM/Amine+PIB
NG+PIB
NG/PETN (paste)
NG/NC (gel)
M a k i n g a d e t o n a t o r s m all enough to fit into a lock keyway would be difficult. So use a detonator m ade from AP putty in the
form of a tapered stick. It would be a very slightly tapered blade, that would be slid into a keyway. It has a five second delay
fuse cast into it.
You light the fuse of the detonator stick, take a step around the corner, and BANG! goes the lock. :)
The booster isn't a secondary, but m ore AP putty, to "boost" the explosive force applied against the lock by utilizing all
available volum e of keyway to hold explosive.
Setting off the explosion inside of the lock utilizes the confinm ent of the lock body to am plify the explosive effect of what
might be only a half gram of explosive. The insides of a lock are meant to be moved, thus they are vulnerable to sudden
shocking.
Trying to shatter the shackle would be m uch more difficult since there is no confinement, the shackle is solid steel with no
voids, and would require much more explosive.
Also, you won't have access to a shackle if it's a door or safe lock.
Not that it's very likely that you'd encounter one, but the types of locks used in prisons (Foster-Miller) are m assive and would
be pretty invulnerable to anything less than a half-pound of HE.
However, these locks are m ade from welded steel plates, and have a lot of hollow space in them with fat keyways you could
use to squirt stuff into the locks guts. An ounce of explosive inside the lock would rupture it without spraying shrapnel
everywhere.
+++++++++++++
Kid Orgo:
Since you didn't seem to read this post (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&postid=38706#post38706), I'm

including it here.
Stop...just stop...you're becoming annoying.
You're post whoring.
And bringing up old threads just to add your little say is REALLY annoying.
Restrict yourself to two replies per day for the next week, regardless of section. This will force you to prioritize your responses
to something (hopefully) worth hearing, rather than the trivial crap you've been posting so far.
As a newbie, you haven't shown that you've got things worth listening to yet, so you're not in the position to be replying with
trivial shit, not having already established your worth like respected mem bers have.
++++++++++++++++
PS: Edit your post to include additional inform ation if it's the last one in the topic and is only FIVE m inutes old. O NLY post a
new reply (if your's is the last one in an old thread) IF you have additional inform ation to add.
This is another rule I have to write down...
nbk2000 June 24th, 2003, 03:59 AM

For everyone else who doesn't enjoy burning up 4 m inutes of pre-paid dialup to download three 100K pictures, I've attached
them (in a greatly reduced size) in a 138K zip file.
This isn't a slam against you zippoxiv, since we greatly appreciate people posting pictures of their
e x p e r i m e n t s . . . H O W EVER ...there are som e things that we greatly appreciate people doing before they post pictures of their
M
experiments.
This is athe rule I forgot to type up, so you're fine, rules not being retroactively applied.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
When posting pictures, use a photo editing program like photoshop or paintshop, to crop and resize your pictures to minimize
their size. Not everyone who visits The Forum has the broadband, nor tim e, to waste while waiting for your masterpiece of
photographic art, that would surely make Ansel Adams bow before you, to download your pictures.
Crop out the background that has no relevence, resize so it'll fit in a browser screen without having to scroll around (under
640x480. 1300x800 is TOO big.), and save it in the format appropriate to the type of picture it is. If it's a com puter graphic or
screenshot, then it's a .GIF. If it's a photograph of a real-world place or object, then it's a .JPG.
For .GIF, use the lowest num ber of colors possible, while preserving as much of the colors as needed to make it viewable.
For .JPG, use the lowest quality possible that presents the information that the picture is intended to convey, while being of a
high enough quality that the "blockiness" is minimal.
T h e O NLY time a 150Kb, 1200x800 pic would be apropriate, would be when it is of a circuit board, m icro-organism, tiny
mechanical device, or something else of such small and refined detail that very high resolution is required to properly display
the item, and ONLY if such high resolution is required for the purpose of duplication/analysis/identification.
If it's a picture of a broken circuit you found in the garbage, and you're posting a picture of it so we can see that you did
indeed find a broken circuit board, then we don't need to be able to zoom in and read the values of the resistors from 10 feet
away.
It is NO T appropriate for showning a hole in the ground. We don't need to be able to zoom in 20x to count the num ber of
worm s you killed in the process of m aking the hole. Nor do we need to see what the clouds looked like that day, nor the
number of people standing next to the hole. These are extraneous details that must be removed so as to save everyone the
bandwidth they'd otherwise be wasting.
If you have a site where you are posting your pictures at, and there's a large number of them, then please have the courtesy
of posting a thum bnail version, or contact sheet, of them, so we can quickly identify which ones are of interest to us, and skip
those that we could care less.
This not only saves OUR tim e, but also saves YOUR bandwidth, since we're not downloading your entire photo directory to find
out that only 1 of your 20 pics was of any interest to us.
++++++++++++++++++++++
And, since I was at it, I added a thum bnail index to DBSP's pictures on m aking an SC cone, and THErAPISTS AP charges.
Therapists (I'm tires of alternating caps) pics are nice and sm all, but rather dark. DBSP has very clear pictures, but they're too
large.
Practice guys, practice. Remem ber, photoshop is our friend. ;) And please make use of the thum b index. :)
Titanium June 24th, 2003, 02:43 PM

C o u l d y o u u s e s o m kind of glue instead of the aspirin binder?... Like wood-glue or super-glue?
THErAPIST :
This is just what i need now.. I have been trying to pick locks for a while now, and this will m ake it so much faster to do.
Thanks!
THErAPIST June 24th, 2003, 03:32 PM

Well Titanium, I can actually pick locks pretty quickly as ive been playin with lockpicks for the last year or so... But I just
thought that explosives would be a m ore fun way to open the lock :D
Ok so a few hours ago after I had m y runaway AP reaction that spit acid into m y eyes. I finally got around to filtering m y batch
of AP that didnt try to kill me. I tried the LPS and guess what... IT DIDN'T FUCKING W ORK! W hy I don't know. I think it was due
to the fact that the last LPS was much larger and it was just shoved it into the keyhole instead of cut to the right size and
such.. BUT I have thought of a way to defeat any kind of lock (with a few exceptions).
First one would take a piece of masking tape and lie it sticky side up on a table. Second one would put a respectable size of
primary on one half of the tape. Third one would put a length of fuse in the middle of the tape and the tape would be folded in
half. VOILA, flexible LPS. You should be able to stick this into any keyhole, no matter the shape (unless its one of those locks
on a suitcase that could be bitten in half). I havent yet tried this yet, and I wil have to get another lock and some masking
tape before I do, as I packed the last lock with AP after the failed LPS and blew it to shit... Kickin m yself in the ass for that
now.
nbk2000 June 24th, 2003, 07:32 PM

By "didn't work" do you m ean it didnt' explode, it didn't destroy the lock, or the lock wasn't able to be opened by turning the
cylinder? Clarify please.
Also, it might be that this lock is m ore solidly built than the first one you blew up, so it m ight not be a failure of the LPS, but
rather using the wrong tool for the job.
As for a batch of AP spitting acid in your eyes...safety googles...ever hear of them? I know they're a new fangled idea, but I
think they m ight actually worth wearing. ;) :p
THErAPIST June 24th, 2003, 08:47 PM

When I said didn't work I meant that it didnt sound as loud as the first LPS and it didn't seem to do anything at all to the lock.
This LPS was slightly smaller in comparrison to the last one m ainly because I was trying to make it m ore square and smaller to
cut down on friction. The last LPS was just shoved into the lock because it was a little too big. Maybe I'll just stick to m a k i n g
them bigger.
Also, I have goggles but have never had a runaway when making AP so I stopped wearing them . I Don't think the goggles
would have done too m uch for m e anyways. Most goggles that I've seen have sm all holes in then towards the bottom so that
o
they don't fog up, but the acid was in more of a vapor like state instead of a droplet state, which was blown into m y face. I
think the vapor probably would have went in through the vent holes and still got to m e. I assure you I didn't have my eyes
open for very long. They got closed the instant I felt the wind hit m y face because I knew what would happen if I didn't close
em. I just closed em too late to do m yself much good.
Nihilist June 24th, 2003, 09:59 PM

Titanium , the binder used in aspirin is simply starch(i'm alm ost positive but not 100%) which you can of course buy at any
grocery store, and probably already have. So there is no need for other binders though I would think that super glue would be
fine if there was a compelling reason to use it, seeing as it would be rather m essy.
nbk2000 June 25th, 2003, 02:31 AM

Having gotten a look at the pictures of the lock you (zippoxiv) blew up, I see that it's the warded, not a pin tum bler, type of
lock. These locks have a very large internal volume, m uch larger than that present in a pinned lock, allowing for a much larger
volum e of explosive to be inserted into the body of the lock.
This explains why your lock was disintegrated, while therapists lock was still intact.
For a warded lock like this, explosives are overkill, for simply grinding off all but the last bit of the key would allow you to open
any m aster lock of the sam e size and style. And, considering how these are $3 locks, they can't really be expected to be very
secure now, eh?
Now, if you can defeat the kinds of locks found on this page:
http://www.insight-security.com/pf11-1.htm
then you're doing something good. :)

I wonder how easy/hard it m ight be to shatter the U-shaped bit of metal on a padlock? O bviously it'll be hard with a ham mer,
but this isn't a ham mer forum :).
If you've got about a billion watts per square centim etre from a little block of HE, I have a feeling that all but perhaps the best
of locks would break, especially since hard alloys tend to be brittle alloys.
A blob of m odelling clay could be used to hold the charge in place and have some tam ping effect.
-=HeX=- January 3rd, 2008, 06:42 PM

Sorry about yet another bout of necrom ancy! But I have info to add. At the start of the thread THErAPIST said he would do
friction tests on the explosive lockpicks, well, seeing no results, I did som e.
Inserting into the lock roughly produced no detonation.

Snapping the LPS produced no det. Scraping of floor (concrete), no det.
Scraping LPS off sandpaper, lead to a full detonation.
These on their own can destroy m ost Tri-Circle and Master padlocks in tests, by destroy I mean allow you to open with
screwdriver.
House locks, however, required the 2 gram TNP booster stick, and then were either destroyed, or openable.
As for liquid explosive, I believe that Isopropryl Nitrate, in a 10 m l syringe that is wrapped in AP putty (I will m a k e o n e a n d
take a pic soon) which is fused would be good: stick syringe in keyhole, press plunger, light fuse, run.
The fuse would be Microtek's 'Prom ised Fuse' or KMnO4, S and silicone fuse.
THErAPIST, have you experim ented further on this topic, or can you do so, for your idea is very good, as I cannot do many
m o r e e x p e r i m ents for the forseeable future due to the BT Young Scientist of The Year com petition and the Junior Cert. :(
Man Down Under January 3rd, 2008, 07:43 PM

When perform ing necromancy, it's always a good idea to know how stale the corpse is.
THErAPIST, Last Activity: January 30th, 2006 04:51 PM
2 years? I don't think he's going to answer you any tim e s o o n . : p

But thank you HeX for actually experim enting with these things. Any chance of a picture or video of your experiments on
different types of locks?
Also, perhaps you could give an assessment as to the effectiveness on high security locks such as those mentioned by NBK 2
posts earlier (can't find an active link though).
I don't think necromancy is a problem if the person actually adds something to the conversation.
Man Down Under January 4th, 2008, 07:09 AM

http://www.insight-security.com/padlocks.htm seems to be what NBK was referring to.
-=HeX=- January 6th, 2008, 04:46 PM

Hm m m ... I didn't see that bit...
Alexires: Due to lack of camera and lack of funds I cannot take any pics any time soon. However, com e March and I will have
both time, a camera and the cash to do tests. Maybe I will do a test on such a lock. I will take pics ASAP though.
Rbick January 18th, 2008, 03:40 PM

M
Perhaps PLX could be used for this function as well? I did some tests back during the summ er on PLX in large drinking draws
and soaked in lengths of cloth. I think the critical diam eter for 95% NM and 5% TETA (triethylenetetram ine) is 1/16th of an
inch. I had quite a bit of success with the drinking straw method.
The only problem I encountered was the need for a powerful booster to successfully initiate the PLX. I needed at least 1g ETN
with .5g AP to get it to work, sometimes having failed dets. Perhaps the addition of Al to the mix would im prove sensitivity?
An interesting patent you guys may want to check out is patent 3,713,915 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?
Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtm l%2FPTO %2Fsrchnum.htm &r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=3,713,915.PN.&OS=PN/
3,713,915&RS=PN/3,713,915). They talk about the use of sensitized NM to seep into the cracks of old wells and detonated to
"open" the wells up. These cracks could be replaced with "key hole".
The actually addition of Al to PLX type explosive would take a little more work. If added to a simple amine/NM m ixture, the Al
would float to the bottom. I believe Styrofoam, NC, or sm okeless powder can be used to thicken the mixture as to suspend the
Al in the mix.

There are a few basic challenges to this whole subject. The first one is the focus of the force of the energy. By very definition
the liquid explosive flows.....to accomplish work one must have focus of the energy.
The second is that m ost energetic secondaries have a critical mass that needs to exist of they won't shoot; at least at their
expected level of speed & strength.
NG had been used for m any decades to open safes, etc. The reason was it's ability to shoot at low levels of volum e. But to
FOCUS the energy to do work is a whole science in itself. {There was actually som e training recorded to neutralize NG that had
not detonated in attem pts at burglary. The thief would make a m ess and run off and the owner of the safe or whatever was left
with an unsafe safe. A trained individual would then have to neutralize the NG and clean up.} It's not easy to focus that liquid
to do the work necessary.
A plasticized material could be made into a shaped charge cone to direct energy; this is comm on knowledge. But realistically,
so could any directed energy be substituted (an electric drill is faster & easier). W ithin the safe-locksm ithing venue there are
whole collections of drill bits designed to do the work necessary in a very fast, efficient manner. {But that's not the subject and
not that fun.}
Sim ply from a discussion standpoint, the secondary would probably need to be something like nitroglycol (with a VERY sim ple
detonator like a blob of azide on the end of a E-match) and the system would entail "dam -building" with some glycol resistant
m o l d - a b l e m aterial. The force would need to be focused not only to shatter the mechanism but to provide access to
manipulate the left-overs.

Another possibility is the use of a linear shaped charge (SC) to cut whatever the lock is attached to. It is com m o n t h a t a h i g h
security lock is attached to som ething that could be cut with bolt cutters. This is just taking it to the next level.
I was actually thinking about this last night. When I have a little m ore time for experimentation, I would like to start "cutting"
my way through various com m o n m aterials (brick, shed tin, chain, etc.) and investigating the damaged to things inside, as well
as "lock picking" (if shredding a lock with explosive can be called that).
COP certainly has the question of focus and critical diam eter right thought.
Just by thinking about it, I would think that disabling a lock without m aking it inoperable would be quite difficult with
explosives. High pressure m oulding of metals and the high velocities alone would m ake things difficult to say the least.
Also, investigation into a "hush box" (for lack of a better nam e) m ight come in handy with this particular application of
explosives. Sim ply, how to quieten the sound of detonation so that people around don't hear it, or if they do, they cannot tell
which direction it cam e f r o m .

l
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > super acids and their uses
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Jager June 25th, 2003, 11:45 PM

HF + SbF5 is one of the strongest super acids. you can buy hydrofloric acid, but how difficult would it be to make SbF5?
I posted this here because I thought that if you could make this superacid on location you could use it to detroy a lock or door hinges, instead of using explosives as listed
below.
Jager
Ezekiel Kane June 26th, 2003, 03:04 AM

I've never heard of such a 'super acid,' but if you wanted to prepare antimony pentafluoride, you would probably want to use the following reaction in aluminum equipment:
SbCl5 + 5HF -> 5HCl + SbF5
The alternative requires F2 and SbF3, so go with the above method. Antimony pentachloride and hydrofluoric acid are easier to come by.

You can buy hydroflouric acid ? I hope you don't mean just from chem supply.
I would like to know any sources. I looked for it a while back, and the best I found was sulfuric / hydroflouric mixed as an Aluminium cleaner "alu brite" for Al Bull bars on
4WD's.
If not sources, can the two (sulphuric + hydroflouric) be separated ? They would both be useful to me individually.
A metal hinge / lock / hasp etc, will be able to be taken out with most acids, (thinking strong acids here) as long as you have enough, and give it enough exposure time. I
doubt it is the best way to gain access to anywhere, considering the stregth and quantity of acid you'd have to carry. It'd be nice though.
I don't know any thing about 'super acids' unfortunately.
mongo blongo June 26th, 2003, 10:54 AM

I *think* I have seen hydroflouric acid as a rust cleaner. I could be wrong though.
Argeleb Elb June 26th, 2003, 11:23 AM

In my chem supply they sell 50% HF, there is probably a way to get higher concentrations, Acros sell SbF5 but it's realy expensive :-( i don't know anything about SbF5 + HF
but i think it will be hard to unlock something with acid.

I've seen HF as an anti-slip treatment for linoleum floors, but only a weak (~10%) solution.
According to NBK, HF is available as "Wink" brand rust remover. However I've only ever seen phorphoric acid based rust removers.
I'd be surprised if conc HF is available as an OTC product, considering how dangerous it is.

SbCl5 + 5HF -> 5HCl + SbF5
Won't work. HF is a much weaker acid than HCl.
Rather try Sb2O5 + HF.
IIRC this mixture is both a bronsted acid and a lewis acid:
SbF5 + HF ---> H+ + SbF6-
Where SbF6- is the lewis acid.
The equilibrium is so far to the right that it will even protonate other strong acids like H2SO4.

Couldn't you just distill the HF off of the H2 SO4, not a fun procedure to be sure, but im sure with the right protective equipment it would be possible.

I was considering buying the HF from a chem supply company, GibboNet - why is that a bad idea?
will they not sell you any? or is the price prohibative?
http://www.psc.edu/science/Klein2000/getting_jump_on_superacids.html
These are the superacids I have been able to locate on google, (SbF5) + (HSO3F), (BF3) + (HF) and (SbF5) + (HF)
I have been unable to find any information about the speed at which they can eat through metal/wood, or even any acid for that matter.

It might be a strong acid, but that does not mean it will eat through metal faster.
For example, diluted HNO3 will attack iron, but concentrated HNO3 will not, because of passivation.
If the metal forms insoluble fluorides the superacid won't do shit.

I guess I jumped the gun on this one, I just assumed that it would
GibboNet June 26th, 2003, 10:45 PM

It's just a personla thing - I don't like to order over the internet, though that may change. Besides, everything I've needed so far has come off the shelves locally, I don't see
any reason to chnge.
Besides, with government agencies being able to track such thjings on the internet, you never can be too sure. In 'real life' on the ground, I know what I'm doing and who's
watching.
Unfortunately, I have not the time nor the resources to distill, but again, hopefully I'll be changing that.
I think in the end, carrying enough acid, and having to reapply it to a lock (or similar) is way to much work, not to menthion dangerous. I'm much more comfortable with
explosives than acids anyway. :rolleyes:

This sounds amazing, as most explosives are made with strong acids. You should try to get more comfortable with them, they're your friends ! (especially red fuming NA) ;)
J June 29th, 2003, 01:23 PM

If you spill HNO3/H2SO4 on your arm you'll get some nasty burns, but apart from some scarring you'll live. Spill HF on your arm and it will not only do this, but it will seep
down into your bones and react with the Calcium, bone marrow, etc. You will then have insoluble fluorides floating around your blood, which can give you a heart attack/clog
up arteries. Your bones will not recover even if you do survive, and so you will quite probably have pain there for the rest of your life.
I don't want to scare anyone, but I feel it's neccessary to point out the extra dangers with this acid. If you are working with it, make sure you have some Calcium Gluconate
(IIRC) gell to hand in case of spills.
HF is used in the semiconductor industry to clean Silicon wafers. Interestingly enough, BF3 is also used, but for implanting into wafers. You may wish to bare this in mind if
trying to blag any from a chem supplier. Although you won't get the BF3 because it's a highly toxic gas...
yt2095 June 29th, 2003, 02:40 PM

try using a mix of acids, HNO3 and HCL(aq), i beleive the mix is 2 parts HCL to 1 part HNO3.
it`ll dissolve pure gold (i use it myself in metal extraction)
that should be alot safer than HFL and more effective as well for your needs.
Also as a bit of fun, i have a 99p (about 70 cents) padlock here hanging on a glass rod over a watchglass, i`ve been adding acid to it hourly for the last 3 days (except at bed
time).
well it`s a most disgusting color, but it hasn`t been breached yet!
personaly, i`de bolt cutter the thing, or blow it if i wanted to be really flash about it and didn`t worry about noise.
i`m using straight nitric on this test though. i expect that the combo Aqua Regia, would maybe knock a few days of this trial :(
sorry to dissapoint, i hate doing that :(
all the best anyway :)
Leadazide June 30th, 2003, 06:53 PM

An acid could be used to "prepare" a lock for a eventual breakin by adding acid to it over a period of time. This would of course requere relative easy acces to the lock and
hoping no one notices it. hmmm.... Not very likely if there is something worth having behind the lock:(
nbk2000 July 1st, 2003, 01:07 AM

Use a thallium salt to cause embrittlement. It takes time, but is invisible, and only has to be done once. Come back in a few weeks and whack it with a hammer to cause it to
shatter. No freezing needed. :)

I'm hoping you have some more information NBK ?
I had a look around, but didn't turn up anything of interest. It sounds too good to be true, so I'm assuming there is a nig problem with aquiring a thallium salt ?
vulture July 6th, 2003, 03:47 PM

It sounds too good to be true, so I'm assuming there is a nig problem with aquiring a thallium salt ?
No kidding. Thallium is very expensive and extremely poisonous. If you can afford it you'll be sure to raise some suspicion.
Jager July 6th, 2003, 08:56 PM

Found three different prices: 48$/100g, 48$/1lb, USD50000/kg
http://www.agriseek.com/buy/e/Agrochemicals/Rodenticides/Inorganic/Thallium-Sulfate/?AUT=8e0f2ba5ee204131aa5cdb71099a11af9795e3ab2&FF_UMX=Y
Has a section for peaple who sell Thallium Sulfate.
What about the thallium salt causes embrittlement?

It would be very nice, but obviously, very impractical. :(
I think I'd rather spend some money on a few different sized sets of bolt cutters. At least they can be re-used, arouse no suspicion, and will work on nearly all locks, excepting
those that are armoured or otherwise inacessable.
Actually, some locks around here have full 7-8mm thick steel boxes around them, so you can only see the key side. That way there is no chance of smashig, cutting, or
dissolving the lock. I suppose Lock Picking skills will have to be honed.
nbk2000 July 7th, 2003, 10:37 AM

If you have one of those super-secure locks to deal with, lockpicking is basically impossible, or would require hours on site. :(
Better would be to inject some thallium into the lock mechanism, come back a few days later, and shatter the now brittle pins with a polish key. :)
This doesn't do you any good if there's a series of locks you'd have to penetrate sequentially, like doors, but for a stand alone, it'd be quite adequate.
I'm not exactly sure how the thallium works to embrittle steel, perhaps by replacing some part of the alloy? Sounds like google'ing is in order.
+++++++++++++++++++
It seems the thallium causes hydrogen embrittlement (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=thallium+embrittlement+steel) in steel. Other

heavy metals have similar effect, though not as powerfully as thallium.
cypher13 September 13th, 2003, 01:12 AM

I seem to think perchloric acid is stronger than hydrofluoric.
Hydrofluroic acid is used to etch glass. Some calligraphers use it to make frosted lettering on glass surfaces. They place a sheet of soft wax atop the glass, press it into place,
cut letters with an X-Acto knife and then brush on the acid. At one time, hydrofluoric acid was sold in wax bottles; now I imagine it is all plastic.
So, if you want some, go to a calligraphers' conference, find out who does this, and inquire where they obtain theirs.
vulture September 13th, 2003, 08:17 AM

Yes, perchloric acid is a stronger acid than HF. HF is actually a pretty weak acid, but in combination with SbF5 it is a much stronger acid than perchloric acid.
Please read threads before posting.

All the info you gave can be found above.
Hang-Man October 8th, 2003, 06:57 PM

Just to be clear here; when you talk about acid 'strength', you are talking about the amount the acid disassociates in water? or some made up scale of how fast it eats through
things?
bobo October 8th, 2003, 07:09 PM

Strong = low Pk. And, in water Pk is 0 for many acids including HNO3 and H2SO4 meaning they dissociate 100%. You'd need other solvents to see the difference in strength.
Check out some basic graduate chemistry book.

In wintertime northern Alaska, I'm told, aluminum hand tools are used because if you drop them, at -50F, they're much less likely to shatter. I'm inclined to believe it:
experience as a die maker has taught me that extremely hard metals tend to be extremely brittle.
Liquid nitrogen. Case-hardened hammer. BAM. Almost guaranteed to work against padlocks, may be a bit more problematic embedded locks but may be worth a try.
zeocrash December 10th, 2003, 03:53 PM

hmm, i hate to bring up a (relatively) old topic, but this seems the apropriate place to stick this, and i havent managed to find anything specific about this. i was wondering if
anyone knew the concentrations of HNO3 and HCL in aqua regia, will 70% HNO3 do or do i need fuming stuff.

And you couldn't find it using Google?
Grrrrr...:mad:

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Angle for longest trajectory. -
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ST
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 100
From : 000
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At what angle will you get the furthest trajectory?
I h a v e 3 8 d e grees im printed in m y head, which goes slightly further than 45, can someone confirm this?
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
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I a m preety sure it is 45 degrees for a non rocket propelled m issile, like a bullet, or spud from a spud gun
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y e n d o t h e r m (edited February 07, 2001).]
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
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yes, if you want to shoot som ething as far as it will shoot, angel it at 45 degrees.
------------------
...
BaDSeeD
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 80
From : buffalo, ny
posted February 08, 2001 01:50 AM
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W rong. W ind resistan ce affects trajectory more than gra vity. O p t i m a l a n g l e i s 2 2 . 5 d e g r e e s .
------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorrance will bring your demise.
ST
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 100
From : 000
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Badseed, not that it was relevant to the question, how can you say wind resistance effects trajectory more than gravity!..
W ithout gravity the bullet wouldnt even com e down, itll effect variance bu t that wa snt the question.
how did you arrive at 22.5 degrees? too shallow for m e to believe.
I think there was very little difference from 38-45 but 'theoretically' 38 degrees was optim al.
W asnt there som e mortarm e n i n h e r e ?
Microtek
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 196
From :
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Yes I used to calculate trajectories for m ortars, and the truth is that air resistance d o e s m a k e a d i f f e r e n c e b e c a u s e i t b r a k e s
the projectile . The optim al angle for earth-standard atm osphere is 43.5 degrees. In vacuum it would be 45.
PS. Note that air resistance will have a greater effect on small projectiles because of their relatively larger surface which gives a
relatively gre ater drag. The 43.5 degrees are optim al for 81mm grenades which weigh 3.3 Kg, but it m ay not be optim al for
very light projectiles.
[This message has been edited by Microtek (edited February 08, 2001).]
HMT D Factory
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 220
From :
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As far as I know .22 LR achieve it's longest
range at 25~30 degrees. (Cartridges of the W orld, 8th edition page 380) And tha t's not
45 degrees nor 38 degrees.
Projectiles lose velocity as they go, that's why ballistic coefficient(in turns affect re sistance given to the bullet.) of the projectile
is very im portant when you wa n t t o f i n d m a x i m u m r a n g e .
C o m mon bullets with "excellent" ballistic coefficient have bc of around only 0.500, out of perfect 1.000.
T h e r e a r e s o m e d r e a m bullets m ade with alloys

, long and slender, having astounding bc of 0.910. now that's something that will fly far
a t 4 5 d e g r e e s...
M a x i m u m range...you are talking about the m a x i m u m x-axis projection of parabolas that are distorted by loss of velocity
which is distorted by the factor of current velocity.
Not very sim ple when you do things in earth atm osphere eh? Guess that's why people wan t to become astronaunts.
Ropik May 3rd, 2004, 08:17 AM

I have 42 in m y h e a d a s " o p t i m al angle for longest range" but I didn't know why.
Bert May 3rd, 2004, 10:29 AM

I have 42 in m y h e a d a s " o p t i m al angle for longest range" but I didn't know why.
I don't know either- In atmosphere, th e l o n g e s t r a n g e i s d e p e n d a n t o n a n u m ber of factors related to the geom etry of the
projectile. For a .22 long rifle 40 grain solid, m a x i m u m range is at about 22 for instance.
aikon May 3rd, 2004, 10:45 AM

The following data com es from t h e g e r m a n b o o k : M A R TINI, K.H. 2000; Das W a f f e n - S a c h k u n d e b u c h - 1 2 . A u f l a g e . J o u r n a l V e r l a g
Schwend GmbH
Maximum range:
S h o t g u n a m m o and .22: angel betwee n 25 an d 35

H a n d g u n a m mo: 25-35
R i f l e a m mo: 30-35
Ropik May 3rd, 2004, 12:17 PM

Hehehe... this optim al angle(as i found few m inutes ago) is for vacuum and for round projectile. In similar place cannot shoot
any com m o n gunner :) .
tmp May 3rd, 2004, 01:05 PM

Optim u m angle in a vacuum would be 45 degrees. On earth, there are a lot of
factors to consider such as projectile weight, shape and ballistic coefficient.
I r e a d a b o u t o p t i m u m angles for guns in Guns & Am m o awhile back. It seem s
t h a t 3 5 d e g r e e s i s o p timum for the .30-06 using a 200 grain bullet. The Paris
gun that the Germ a n s u s e d d u r i n g W W I h a d a n o p t i m u m a n g l e o f 5 4 d e g r e e s
because this put the projectile into thinner air sooner and decreased the
aerodynamic drag on the round thus enabling it to travel more distance.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > ballistic gelatin - Archive File
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god
A new voice
Posts: 31
From :
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C a n y o u m ake ballistic (sp) gelatin and with wh at
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
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From : L o n d o n
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W hat's ballistic gelatin?
HMT D Factory
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NG+NC
(A m i s t a k e )
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y H M T D F a c t o ry (edited Februa ry 28, 2001).]
god
A new voice
Posts: 31
From :
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ballistic gelatin is what they use for Initiating what a gun would do to you if you where hit. hmtd factory NG+NC?
HMT D Factory
Freq uent Poster
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From :
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S O R RY...can't correct the post fast enough.
You caught me.
I thought you said "ballistite" that is NG+NC
I a s k e d t h e s a m e q u e s t i o n l o n g a g o i n a s h o o t i n g f o r u m , n o b o d y s e e m s to know it.
From somewhere I got the impression that it is a lum p of polymer different than household gelatin(weed extract)
A good substitute for ballistic gelatin is soft clay. But the wound tends to explode more than gelatin test. It is also not
transparent.
BoB-
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I thought Ballistic gelitin was what they shot guns at to sim u l a t e a h u m an target, its not an im provised weapon.
The Real
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From : C olum b u s , O H
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Plain jello will yield results that are close. If I remem ber correctly it's gellatin with only 75% of the original water content as the
gela tin we eat.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From : G u e s s
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Here's an article on m aking 10% ballastic gelatin.
http://www.firearm stactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volum e3/n umber2/article1.htm
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Mr C ool
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Just an idea that m ight be fun/educational: m ake a transparent ballistic gelatin, have a high-spee d video camera to film it,
and put polarising filters in front of and behind the gellatin, with a strong light source. All the stresses etc. will show up as
c o l o u r e d a r e a s , a n d w o u l d b e g o o d t o h e l p u n d erstand how things are affected by bullets/explosives.
HMT D Factory
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Sounds like a nice idea.
How does it work? The light pass through
a layer of polarizer, then jello, then an other polarizer(parallel to the first one)?
If it works then I think poking the jello

a l o n e will be fun.
Mr C ool
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Y e s , i f I r e m e m ber correctly the polarisers should be po larising in the sam e plane, e.g. both let ve rtically polarised light
through, with the jello between them , and the light shining throu gh everything into the camera.
I'm not abso lutely sure if it'll work with jello, bu t I think it should.
Hold on, I'm a Brit! W hy the fuck am I saying jello?! JELLY! That's better.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Defeating Luminol - Archive File
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nbk2000
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From: Guess
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Luminol, for those of you who don't know what it is, is a chemical that reacts with the iron content of blood, forming a green glow when exposed to UV light that reveals the
presence of otherwise invisible bloodstains.
This has lead to the detection of otherwise perfect murders that were thought of as suicides, until a glowing green trail from a bed to the bathtub is detected.
I have 3 ideas about how to defeat the use of luminol:
1. Use a chelation agent like EDTA to combine with the iron and make it unavailable to react with the luminol.
2. Use chemicals that react with iron to make it totally soluable in water and able to be washed completely away with no traces left to be detected. Vitamin C reacts with iron
to form iron soluble salts and is inert to most materials. Cheap too.
3. Make the detection of iron a moot point. Use a sprayer filled with a suitable iron chemical and spray the entire crime scene, floor to ceiling, with it. Then anywhere they use
the luminol, they're going to get a glow. Remember, the lack of positive evidence is not in and of itself evidence.
Possible problems would be that luminol may only react with certain iron compounds or in the presence of some other blood component. Wheter this is possible, I don't know.
Anyone with suitable knowledge to provide intelligent feedback on this subject is encouraged to reply. NO LAMERZ!
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Jhonbus
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As soon as I started reading this topic, I thought of idea number 3
I think it would cause extreme suspicion, and make them look all the harder for other evidence, but it's a sound idea.
I don't think idea 1 would work because the iron in blood is already chelated by the haemoglobin complex. Not completely sure about this though.
Idea 2 sounds like it would work quite well.. but washing away the iron-containing compound might still be quite difficult.
blackadder
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From: London
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What will the police's reaction be, when they see that the whole room glows? They won't think "This person smeared blood everywhere", what would they think? What reason
could you possibly have for having the whole room covered in the stuff?
No doubt they would be extremely suspicious, but they will be ultra-confused as well.
Surely they know that people can develop tactics to defeat luminol?
Bitter
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I have a little EDTA available if you want to do any experimentation, NBK.
c0deblue
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We ARE talking about getting the details correct for a new crime novel, not plotting an actual murder, right? Okay.
Playing "devil's advocate" for a moment, a couple of thoughts:
Wouldn't the chelation agent have to be such that it left no detectable residue of its own? After all, the "evidence" collected in a luminol scan is a photographic record of blood
traces detected - not the actual blood itself. If they could figure out what had been done, photos demonstrating that certain areas had been treated to render luminol
ineffective might be just as incriminating.
Luminol may be iron-reactive, but iron isn't the only thing they look for at crime scenes. From what I understand there are many tests for the presence of blood, and the tests
done on wood, fabrics, the contents of drains etc. aren't limited to luminol. While they probably wouldn't remove floorboards to a lab without thinking there was something to
find, the same might not be true of fabrics or drain contents.
The problem with "painting" the scene with an iron solution (or some such) is that deliberate contamination would immediately be apparent. This would shift the focus to HOW,
WHY, and more importantly WHEN? The vagaries of aerosol dispersion being what they are, unless the scene could literally be flooded it could easily be deduced the
contamination took place after the fact - proof positive the "death" had not been a suicide or accidental. If there had been any uncertainty before, this would remove it.
I don't know either about whether luminol reacts with iron only in the presence of other blood products, but I don't think I'd care to educate myself by reading lab reports with
my name on them.
Similarly, where my defense argument rested solely on the inability of police to detect blood in the face of evidence the blood traces had been destroyed, I wouldn't be overly
reliant on the average jury to parse the finer points of evidence law.
It's an interesting question nonetheless, and one analogous to preventing fingerprint detection. It's been shown that even this requires a complex "cocktail" of chemicals to
reliably defeat the silver nitrate, iodine, cyanoacrylate, neopicrin, UV, and laser detection methods used by crime labs in fingerprint recovery. I'd venture a guess that blood
products might be trickier still to deal with.
BoB-
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I found some info on Luminol, its apperently a chem-illuminescence constituent.
You can make it give off light by mixing 0.60 gm Luminol and 3.30 gm NaOH per 2000 ml,
and then pouring the solution into a solution of 6.1 gm K3Fe(CN)6 [or 7.8 gm K3Fe(CN)6.H2O] per 2000 ml, and then add 2 ml 30% H2O2 per 200 ml of solution, the mix will
glow in low light (you can find a much more detailed description here.
Human blood contains a pigment called haemoglobin, the central atom of haemoglobin is Fe (iron)
Here I found this:

http://www.deakin.edu.au/forensic/Chemical%20Detective/images/luminol_gif.gif
I have to agree with c0deblue, a counter-agent would be proof of foulplay.
[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited March 10, 2001).]
Mr Cool
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From: None of your bloody business!
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You can oxidise luminol with H2O2 at the right pH etc. to produce a bright blue glow. Not useful, but quite pretty Looks good if you spray it from an atomiser in the dark.
Agent Blak
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From: Sk. Canada
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How un common is it for a suicide to be followed be arson. Would fire not destroy the evidence? if you were good you would set it up so it looked like they were going to try
and fuck over the insurence company and fucked up. not un common. Plus why not use a garrot no messy blood; you could also make that look like they use a poorly made
knose and it choled them to death not *snap* there neck.
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DaRkDwArF
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Posts: 258
From: Australia
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First gunpowder, now a cover up, isn't Vitamin C just wonderful!
hmmm, a lot of gear involved in "The Perfect Murder" but these are a lot of things nobody thinks of, I've seen this product used in a forensics video and it even showed the
forensics team how the murder was done by the blood pattern, eg. if they were hit by a baseball bat the blood pattern would be slight arched, yet a gunshot wound would
present a different pattern. and they could go further into it like the caliber of the firearm used or the shape of the weapon, was rather interesting and yes I went to the police
museum to see this =)
megalomania
Administrator
Posts: 653
From: USA
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Offhand I would have to say that if you spray luminol on the crime scene yourself, it should bind all of the iron in the blood, thus rendering furthur luminol detection impossible.
I have made luminol before, I will have to consult my info on it to see if this is feasible.
The idea of rendering the iron unavailable is by far the best way. Luminol cannot react with it if it is already in a compound. Combining a better cleaning method with binding
the iron is better still.
And why don't crooks defeat luminol more often? Well, quite frankly the police rely on the stupidity of the crook.
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For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at http://surf.to/megalomania
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
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After doing some web searching this is what I've found out about luminol:
Luminol requires oxidized blood (released oxygen) to glow. To accomplish this the luminol solution contains an oxidant like hydrogren peroxide or sodium perborate. It is the
released oxygen that catalyzes the luminescence.
The iron in blood is what's oxidized and this is what the luminol detects. But it also reacts (false positives) with copper ions, copper compounds, iron compounds (like rust), and
cobalt ions, potassium permanganate (found in some dyes),sodium hypochlorite
(bleach), ferricyanide, plant peroxidases, and even cigarette smoke. Some of these false positives can be differentied by spectral analysis, but this would require a
spectrometer which might be difficult to set up on site.
Also, there is insufficient difference between human and bovine (cow) haemoglobin to distinguish between them using spectral differences. So this might be useful for decoy
blood stains.
Luminol can detect blood traces down to 1 part in 5 million, but the luminol reaction is at best a presumptive test for blood. If the stain is so dilute that it can only be visualized
with luminol, then no further analysis can be performed to confirm the presence of blood.
Also, studies have shown that luminol will cause the loss of several genetic
markers because luminol is water based, and it can cause latent, possibly bloody
impressions to smear. Luminol can also further dilute an already diluted
stain. This may push the stain beyond the genetic marker analysis detection.
Some links to visit:
Simple explaination of how luminol works:

http://www.deakin.edu.au/forensic/Chemical%20Detective/Luminol_test.htm
Real Video of luminol in action:
http://play.rbn.com/?url=dcionline/dcionline/g2demand/fansites/new_detectives/ dark.rm&proto=rtsp
Using luminol to detect blood:
http://www.ualr.edu/~cjdept/ci/blood.pdf
List of substances that cause false postives:
http://www.redwop.com/technotes.asp?ID=118
PDF version of above:
http://www.redwop.com/download/hemaglow.pdf
(or see attached)
Since the iron in the haemoglobin molecule is very tightly bound in, and blood stains are detectable even years later, I don't think that trying to bind something to the iron
would work. Because anything that would bind to the iron would first have to have freed it from the haemoglobin, which means it's free to be washed away.
Anything that binds with the iron will have to be irreversible bound to it and be able to resist breakdown by peroxides and hydroxides.
So I think the washing agent idea would be the most productive.
And I've read of how the luminol can keep being reapplied to the same stain over and over with repeatable results so trying to bind it with luminol is a no-go. But it could be
used by you to find the stains and use the effective washing agent.
There's several places that sell luminol. As low as $25 for a pint of mix. This would have to be purchased long ahead of time so there's be no incriminating records to point back
to you.
Yes, most criminals are stupid. They either do it in the heat of the moment and are thus unprepared, or they plot and scheme but overlook the simplist things like "Who took
out a million dollar life insurance policy 1 week before the victim died in a freak squirrel hunting accident?".
akinrog December 17th, 2004, 04:10 PM

Sorry for bringing up an old thread.
Today I watched another episode of mythbusters. In that episode the guys placed pigs in a 1987 corvette and waited two months to allow decomposition of the corpses.
After two months they opened the container which have the corvette and tried to clean the remains but also the terrible stench from the car. They asked assistance of a crime
scene cleaner who uses a special type of enzyme based cleaning solution, composition of which they claim the crime scene cleaner guy did not disclose. Anyway to cut a long
story short they failed to remove the stench from the car.
I started searching over the internet and although I cannot find the composition of this enzyme based solution, I found something better. It is ozone which this site (http://
www.cleanfax.com/article.asp?IndexID=6631162) claims that the ozone is the only thing which eliminates the bad stench given out by the decomposing corpses. But I am still
after the enzyme based solution. Anybody knows what that solution is? Regards.
akita January 13th, 2005, 04:07 AM

Hi i saw that this old thread had been opened so i thought i'd post a link too. :) I can only hope that someone finds it interesting.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/luminol.htm

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Breaking Glass - Archive File
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CragHack
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I might be mistaken but i think this topic was glossed over in the previous forum but i am not sure. i preformed a search on
this forum and no results were produced.
My question is, does anyone know of a way, to break a single pane glass window so that it makes very little noise? i recall
someone saying, on the other forum (i think anyway, unless i am just pulling this out of my ass), someone saying to cover
the glass with duct tape strips and then break it? does this ring a bell to anyone? if not, does anyone have any different way
to do it? any help would be appreciated. thanks
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PYRO500
Moderator
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yes, cover a square near the corner of a window with tape and hammer around the edge with your tool
BoB-
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I once heard it discussed that if one were to heat the pane of glass it would crack and eventually shatter, this would require
practice though.
If you got it to work for you it would probably be more quiet than tooling.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1478
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someone said that they should use a propane torch to melt windows and nbk said that he tried that and it expanded the glass
(loudly) shattering it, your best bet is to get a rol of duct tape and a hammer or crow bar and shatter the corner first andd work
up then from corner then from the corner left and up and crack the top before the tape to keep the thing in 1 piece
CragHack
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From:
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sweet thanks guys. i was thiking about covering the whole damn window in duct tape and then breaking from the bottem up.
just like you said. thanks again.
actually, one more question does anyone know how loud this will be? i know it won't be as loud as untaped glass, but how
loud? low thud? or piercing crack?
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PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1478
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it should be fairly quiet as long as you go very slow, if you do it fast it will be a sharp crack and the glass may fall out, I would
use the handle of one of those big maglite flashlights if I was you
zaibatsu
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Posts: 403
From: England
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I kinda mentioned about the duct tape I think, but what I suggested is using the sticky back sheets you can get to cover boks
etc. The stuff comes on rolls, and is stronger than normal sellotape, so I would think it would be a good choice. Pre-cut to the
shape needed, peel it off, stick it on and then hit.
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Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum
SATANIC
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Posts: 232
From: australia
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the tape or 'contact' book covers would work well, for an improvised method you could hold a blanket tight over the paneand
smash it. th glass would then fall right in, and be easier to climb through, ( punch it out at the edges) and hopefully make
very little noise. On the old forum i think someone came up with the idea that you could cover the window with silicone sealant.
CragHack
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Posts: 606
From:
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i think duct tape would be the most cost effective way to do it. using a pillow in conjunction with the tape is probly th best bet.
just a little pillow though, placed over the spot where you hit.
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c0deblue
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Just bear in mind that any adhesive surface will not only retain perfect fingerprint images, but also collect any fibers that it
touches (from clothing, gloves, etc.), and even hair from your head, hands or arms, even particles of dead skin. Even the side
of a roll of duct tape will collect unique microscopic debris such as fibers or dirt from a car trunk or interior upholstery. Unless
you're very careful you could wind up leaving quite a lot of information useful to investigators.
NightStalker
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Posts: 116
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The book-cover stuff works very well. In a "dream" i had we used it to cover the whole window (was a smaller one) and then
broke it with a smaller hammer arount the edges, removed it broke the whole stuff and rolled it up and took it with us for later
disposal. It was very silent although it took nearly 2 minutes.
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Death stalks silently....
CragHack
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Posts: 606
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ah yes i am aware of the mass amounts of forensic evidence the duct tape would leave behind. i would more than likely collect
the pieces if i were ever to break a window using this method... but thanks for the info. nightstalker, when you used the book
cover crap it was really silent? did it have the tell tale high pitched sound or what? thanks in advance.
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NightStalker
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Posts: 116
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Uh sorry, i forgot something in my post (was in a hurry).
before covering it with the stuff we ran a glass cutter (dunno the real word, a thing that makes kind of a scratch where the
glass will break) around the windows edges.
CragHack: It was relative silent, the loudest point is the first hit when the window is still in its normal position. once it is broke
the noise is much less cause there is no resonance any more. At first it sounds like a medium-loud knocking on the window,
afterwards just a dry cracking. But with this method the charakteristical sound of breaking glass that attracts attention is gone.
But it is too loud to get into someones sleeping room while he is sleeping there :-)
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Death stalks silently....
[This message has been edited by NightStalker (edited March 20, 2001).]
Ctrl_C
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quote:
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Originally posted by NightStalker:
charakteristical
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hahaha...so you and G.W.Bush were in the same English class?
[This message has been edited by Ctrl_C (edited March 21, 2001).]
blackadder
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Posts: 313
From: London
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Could you put a pillow over it and then push SLOWLY, but with something big and bulky, like a tree log, or the top of a
hammer/sledgehammer?
(Yes that would really stop the sound of the glass shattering and falling everywhere, why not just punch the glass and trash it
up like you do to your classroom, dumb shit.
Other people have to use that room, schools suck enough as it is without some Jock/Kevin acting "Hard" to his friends by
punching walls.)
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GOT VIOLENCE?
[This message has been edited by Maddoc (edited March 21, 2001).]
angelo
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how about those hammers they have in buses?
they shatter a window with a slight tap,
and they are really quiet.
But they are hard to come by.
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angelo's place
have a good link? add it here
[This message has been edited by angelo (edited March 21, 2001).]
-Onthefringe-
A new voice
Posts: 13
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Instead of a hammer, try using a spring-loaded center punch. Place it up against the duct tape/glass and release it. Its very
fast & powerful, and the tip can knock out a small hole, similar to a bb pellet hole, in the glass. Maybe then all you need to do
is reach in with a rod or wire to open the latch?
yt2095 June 26th, 2003, 04:48 PM

cover it with peanut butter and just smash it. no finger prints either :)

Score the window with a glass cutter first than tape it then break, thats what i'd do.
Psymage June 29th, 2003, 11:00 AM

hi,
've heard (never tried it myself) if you want to break glass you've need porseline en break it into pieces and trow those pieces
hard on the window, the window wil be broken but wil stil stand in the wall, and the only thing you've got to do now is to pusch
te window so it falls into pieces (here is being silent a problem)
yt2095 June 29th, 2003, 11:19 AM

Psymage,
yes it does work, i beleive your refering to the white ceramic on the sparks plugs that have been smashed up and flicked at
car wind screens?
the only reason this works (some cars only) is because the laminate on the glass is under tension, the schrapnel will penetrate
this and create a weakness, the tension in the glass does the rest of the damage for you.
the reason that the ceramic is used (spark plugs) is because of the way it`s treated, then when shattered an edge can be a
sharp as a single molecule! Bic and Gillete eat your heart out! :)
so only a tiny flick (and hitting it just right) is all thats needed to penetrate this layer and create a tiny breach.
it wouldn`t work on window glass in a house though and won`t work on some cars either.
i find half a house brick works just great tho, phuk the noise :)

The propane torch will not work. Why ? In fact I cannot understand why sometimes you can melt the glass, to shape it for
example, and sometimes it just breaks. The heat of the torch is one point, maybe, the size of the glass may be another
reason. Anyone could explain me ? thanks.
McGuyver June 30th, 2003, 01:21 AM

When glass is melted and formed it is heated uniformly. When you take a torch to a piece of glass the torch only heats a
small part of the glass and that heated glass expands and pushes against the cold glass- breaking it.
I believe the type of glass also has a large affect on it crack resistance. Flint glass is the stuff that breaks real easy, and I'm
not sure but I think windows are made from it.
irish June 30th, 2003, 04:59 AM

Glass windows are made of soda/lime glass.
The link below has a little bit of info on a few different glasses,
http://www.glasstopia.com/e_site/glassis/category/species/bychemical.html
Bit hard to find good tecnical info on glass online most sites seem to be selling vases etc.
zeocrash July 6th, 2003, 08:10 AM

soda glass has a very low melting point iirc.
i was thinking, how loud would it be if you were to heat the glass up, then cool it down very quickly using water or something
slmilar.
another thing would be to just remove the pane of glass, by removing the putty round the edge and using a sucker thing,
(used for carrying glass panes and for removing dents from cars) to lift out the pane
Arthis July 6th, 2003, 10:19 AM

A priori, when trying to destroy a window to pass, you're supposed to be on the wrong side. You shouldn't have access to the
putty. You can use a diamond cutter, along with the "sucker thing".
When heating then cooling very fast glass, it makes a loud noise, easily recognizible. You're not even sure to be able to cool
it down fast enough for it to break.

the propane torch against glass does work.me and a friend heating a pane a while back trying to make it red hot but after
about 5 min we got bored and turned off the torch then while we were standing there talking we heard a *twang* and looked
around thinking someone was throwing shit at us(being halloween night) only to discover a huge crack running through the
whole pane, its not a very quiet method but it does work, kinda sounds like breaking the Ice of a pond in the winter time.

The hammers in buses that break windows easily - they are special windows, not special hammers. You can smash the window
with anything, but using that hammer is just the same as using as any other on a normal window.
Peanut butter ? I don't think so.
I believe that sparkplug thing was from one of the 'cookbooks'. I didn't know there was any truth behind it.
You usually do have access to the putty, but only in the older wooden framed windows. My house just got Aluminium frames
put in, and they are much more secure. The putty is only easy to remove for a few months, after that, it hardens up too much,
and you'll probably break the glas trying to chip it out. Before a few months, you can usually cut it out with a sharp putty knife.
Then, you'll still have to remove window clips, or small nails, (The ones that hold the glass in place while they putty the
window) so bring a small flat head screwdriver along.
If you're in a hurry, then you could try the army (Australian) method.
They have short swords, same sort of size as those that the hobbits carry in lord of the rings. They look like they have been
cut out of thick sheet steel or something. The handle was covered by the hand, but there was a large hand guard across the
hand, that bent back over the back of the hand, giving it full protection. They run up to the window, push the point through the
glass in the centre, then run the blade around the edges, clearing out all the glass from the entire frame. that means no bits
of glass left to cut you.
Then enter the window, using the back of your hands, so that if you do cut yourself, it will be on the back of your hand, and so
will not affect your mobility. I know that makes a lot of noinse, but the advantge - quick (hey, two or three seconds for a full
window, with no sharps left behind)
McGuyver July 6th, 2003, 10:31 PM

Why not just wear gloves?
Anyway, maybe a cordless Dremel tool would work faster than the diamond cutter deal. They have those diamond bits so there
wouldn't be a problem cutting it. I'm sure it would be quieter than breaking it, and much less startling. Then just use the dent
pullers to hold it.
EDIT: Notice I said cordless: meaning battery powered

Dremel tools need power, and make a lot of noise (a high pitched whine for some brands) which would be a lot more
suspicious than even the sound of breaking glass.
A hand diamond cutter is like a pen with a diamond head, that will easily score glass. Once scvored, you need to snap it out.
Chances are that's when it breaks, but if you've duct taped it, or similar, then you're pretty right.
I suppose the dremel tool will cut right through the glass, meaning no snaps. Unfortunately, that takes time, and makes way
too much noise. Also, it would be pretty difficult to hold it steady if you're working on a high / arkward window.
Wearing gloves, (you would be anyway) you need a bit more than that. Sharp shards of glass will go through a lot of glaves.
The army thing I mentioned, they wore full face masks, throat collars, large thick gloves ( like tactical welders gloves :rolleyes:
) IN addition to the usual aus army goggles and helmets.
Arthis July 7th, 2003, 12:02 PM

Normally those tools to cut glass, as you may see in the films, a compass with the diamond cutter at one end, the suction cup
at the other, would perfectly do the job. When you cut the glass, you will cut the duct tape too. Since snaping it up is way
easier and no more expensive (invest in a small suction cup), you will then be able to cut the rest of the window easily, piece
by piece.
When planning such a job, you may use some metal reinforced gloves. Some are not really heavy, while resistant.
Zach July 8th, 2003, 03:15 AM

Using a cutter to score the glass and then breaking it off the edge of a peice is one thing, but cutting a circle and then
snapping the hole out (IMHO) would be a tricky thing to do. I think the pressure needed to snap the glass on a circular score
would have to be totally even all the way around. SWIY could possibly use a peice of tube that is perfectly flush with the
window to bust out the circle, but I'm guessing it wont work as it does in the movies.
I would give it a go, but I am currently at a loss for equipment and materials. Have you ever sucessfully accomplished this
Arthis?
Arthis July 8th, 2003, 08:52 AM

I dare to say I've never tried that. The cutting tool I tried once wasn't working very good, of course it wasn't a diamond cutter.
Back to snapping the glass out, you can of course push it inside. The suction cup is far enough to hold a small portion of
glass. Attach it to a small rope, let it hang inside. If the cord is not long enough, or there are risks that the balancing stuff
makes some noise, wrap the edges with duct tape (just make a large enough hole for your hand(s) to get thru to put the
tape).
Then you cut other pieces, these are easy to take out because you can catch them. Of course you can't do that with a
compass, you need the diamond cutter apart.
yt2095 July 8th, 2003, 09:15 AM

i could be wrong here, but when i`ve seen manual glass cutters at work after scribing the cut they always seem to tap along it
1`st before atempting to break the glass, i don`t know what effect this has exactly, but i assume it`s to deepen the fracture or
make it more uniform before the final snap, maybe this will help you pull your circle out a little easier?
but then there is that noise factor involved with tapping the glass, i got to thinking, maybe an ultrasonic "hammer" would do
that more efficiently and a wee bit quieter? at most you`de get a screeee type sound as you moved it along your scribe, but
wetting it would avoid alot of the noise and make the tool more effective to boot! :)
i`m sure some electric tooth brushes work on this principal too.
it`s only an idea :)
yt2095 July 8th, 2003, 02:08 PM

as much as i hate to double post and i`m SURE someone will try jump on me because of it, i just had to share this...
the above is no longer an IDEA, i`ve done it!
using a Rowenta Dentasonic tooth brush and one of the old brush heads i adapted.
i cut the the head off with a carpet blade (the bit that has the angle arangement and crap).
i epoxy resined a steel ball bearing to the new tip (after taking the rust off the ball and roughing up the side that the adhesive
went on)
i let it set while i surfed, i then got a milk bottle and scribed around the outside so that both ends met up (using a simple
roller cutter).
i applied my toothbrush idea along the scribe, i got half way around and CRASH! the bottom fell off and smashed on the floor
leaving a perfectly cut end in my hand!
a subsequent test on a green thicker beer bottle did the same except i held it above a bin (trash can) this time.
i`ve NOT tested on window pane glass as i have non spare in my lab, only the sheet i use for wet experiments, and i need
that.
if nothing else, i`ve discovered a neat way to make personalised ashtrays :)
hope this helps a little :)
wrench352 August 10th, 2003, 12:43 AM

I used to be a glazier and this is how you do it
take a 2.00 dollar glass cutter,dip in kerosene for lube(you get a great cut)
score the edges,top bottom,sides,in no particular order
then corner to corner x(dont forget to lube your cutter)
tape the shit out of the glass with good duct tape or 90mph tape
gently push through
If your working through the hole to get at a latch or alarm tape off the edges so you dont get cut
Forget the circular cutter that only works in movies

its used to cut circles not holes i.e. table tops,mirrors,etc.
besides in order to make it work pressure would have to be applied from the opposie side of the cut.
circle cut on outside,push through from inside,
get it?plus there would be extra cuts to help free the circle from the pane of glass
on a worktable its a pain
thats all I know on this subject
fasa August 13th, 2003, 10:25 AM

wouldn't just heating the glass and then cooling it instantly work best? I tried this and it make no noise at all...
just use the temp. differences....
cross August 15th, 2003, 06:40 PM

Shards from a spark plug work rather well and I have tested them. You hit the white ceramic with a rock so that it shatters and
simply throw one of the shards at the window. It doesn't shatter the glass so much as it splits it, the edges of the glass are
mostly smooth to the touch. The noise is a simple pop. The shards can also be used to carve witting into glass.
Another method for breaking glass is to peal back the plastic insulation stuff in and push hard on the corner with a screwdriver/
keys/ect. This cause the glass to crack into pieces (the only noise being the crack) but it won't fall until you push it. Emergency
workers use this method because they can control which way the glass falls. If you had the pieces of glass fall onto something
like a pillow it would be very silent.
As for using things like tape I recall hearing that rubber cement works rather good. Also if sound is not an issue one should
use a block of ice to break the glass seeings how it will evaporate leaving no evidence. I also recall there being a type of
glass/plastic used for windows guarding things like computers that you could throw a brick at and it would bounce back, I can't
remember the name though.
vulture August 16th, 2003, 06:32 AM

Have you ever seen those plastic motives you can glue onto windows to keep the sun out or for decorational purposes? Mostly
it has been pre glued, you only need to tear off a protective sheet. After you've done that it'll stick to anything in its way,
making it a pain in the ass to do it right.
See where I'm getting at?

Take a large sheet of the stuff, glue it onto the window, roughly if you have no time, carefully if you have time. Make sure the
outer ends are firmly glued to the frame.
Use one of the less aggressive methods to break the glass and the window will behave like safety glass: Thousands of broken
pieces kept together by the laminate. Carefully cut the laminate from the frame and take out the broken glass.

"being a type of glass/plastic used for windows guarding things like computers that you could throw a brick at and it would
bounce back"
Polycarbonate.
nbk2000 August 16th, 2003, 04:51 PM

Imagine a row of windows as being a row of books on a shelf.
No one pays attention to the books when they are all there, but they'll instantly notice the gap where one book was removed.
Same thing with windows. It's abnormal for a window to be missing from an obvious windowframe, this instantly drawing
attention to itself, and you.
So, once you've got the window out, then what? You replace it. :)
Not with glass, for the obvious reasons, but rather with a flexible plastic sheet. I've seen it somewhere, and now I've forgotten
where, but there's a crystal clear plastic material that comes in sheet form that is fairly rigid, but flexible enough to be rolled
and bent, that would be perfect for replacing busted window panes so it doesn't draw attention by its absence.
You would have a roll of this plastic sheet with you, place it against the target window, and cut it with a razor with a few
millimeters extra around the edges. After busting the window, you'd pop the plastic into place in the groove left in the window
from by the removed glass. :D
I got the idea for doing this from the fact that car thieves who bust the window to get in (amauters! :rolleyes: ) are often
caught by the fact that they're driving around in cold/wet weather with the window "down". What cop isn't going to notice you
zipping along in a driving rain storm with a window "down"? :p
Whereas, if you were stealing a specific car you could already have the plastic "window" all rolled up and ready to go. Lay a
sheet of pre-cut adhesive paper over the window, pop it with a spring loaded center punch, pull out the glass intact, open the
door, pop in your plastic window sheet, and drive off. ;)
Spray a polycarb window with a large CO2 extinguisher, THEN hit it with a brick, and it'll shatter like glass because it's brittle
when cold. :)
Tended Tripod August 16th, 2003, 09:28 PM

From what I've read, the polycarbonate glass you guys are talking about sounds like Plexiglass. Is that just a brand name?
I've heard a story about a guy who chucked a brick at it and it bounced back, hitting him in the forehead. Police found him
unconscious, and when they figured out what happened, arrested him (he was trying to break into a liquor store).
nbk2000 August 17th, 2003, 12:35 AM

Try searching the net to figure out the answer to your question, eh? :rolleyes:
Don't make the Fasa mistake...
Sarevok August 17th, 2003, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by Tended Tripod
From what I've read, the polycarbonate glass you guys are talking about sounds like Plexiglass.
I don't think so. Plexiglas (http://www.pslc.ws/macrog/kidsmac/pmma.htm) is poly(methyl methacrylate), while Polycarbonate
(http://www.pslc.ws/macrog/kidsmac/polycarb.htm) is another kind of polymer.
Tended Tripod, when in doubt, use Google (http://www.google.com).
IDTB September 24th, 2003, 08:43 PM

This is completely on theory, but since heat expands glass wouldn't freezing it shrink it? Here is where I'm going with this: cut
a circle in the glass and spray some kind of chemical that freezes within the circle. I would think it would simply make a *ting*
and come on out. Perhaps having a chemical in a spray bottle that reacts with oxygen to create the desired effect.
Unfortunately I'm not too knowledged with chemicals to know if that aspect is possible.
Lil_Guppy September 24th, 2003, 09:24 PM

If you have the tool(s) to cut the circle in the first place, why dont you just cut it completely out instead of freezing it out? As
I'm not too sure how glass reacts with sudden negative changes in temperature, I cant say if it would work or not, *but* you
could try some freeze spray that you can find in electronics stores. It's used to cool down components.
IDTB September 24th, 2003, 11:59 PM

I think you may have misunderstood me. I didn't mean cut as in cut all the way through, but mearly scratch or carve.
Cyclonite September 25th, 2003, 08:56 AM

First off when you cut glass you don t cut it all the way throug h. You make a scratch and tap it creating a precise fracture .
Cutting all the way would take allot more time and better tools im guessing. It would be great if the cooling idea works but I
have my doubts, it would be like a "silent hammer".
blackninja October 6th, 2003, 04:17 PM

hello,
my first post but i thought i would clarify something.
i disagree with yt2095.
i have used the ceramic from spark plugs on non laminated glass and it worked fine.
just had to throw it harder.
also works well on those telstra(aussie) phone booths launched from a slingshot.
thanks.
blackninja.
p.s hope i didnt bump an anchient thread :)

I've always been led to believe that Plexiglas is simply acrylic - somebody earlier in this thread identified it by another name
that I do not recognise. I can't be certain either way, but Plexiglas certainly does have the yellowish tinge to it I associate with
acrylic.
Polycarbonate has a bluish tinge and is (among other things) the prime component of many bullet-proof glasses. I can
personally testify the stuff is hard as hell to crack.
In thicknesses greater than (tongue in cheek) 0,5mm, neither thermoplastic is easily "rolled". and thicknesses of either
material that COULD be rolled would not be rigid enough IMO to serve as a window pane. temporary or not.
On a slightly related note, my father had this scheme, when I was 17 or so, of "antiquing" glass power line insulators (made of
various colours of glass) by sudden changes in temperature. Unfortunately, he didn't do it in the same sequence I would have
done: he let them sit for a while in a very frigid northern snow and THEN tossed them into a pre-heated oven. The insulators
exploded, of course.
The intended effect would have been achieved by heating and then suddenly cooling them. The insulators would have tried to
shrink, obviously, along the outside surfaces first because this is where the heat loss would have been most dramatic, causing
all sorts of fracturing.
I am, of course, the idiot who just a couple of nights ago set a hot Ehrlenmeyer flask on a cold metal surface. It CLACKED at
me immediately with a sound loud enough to make me jump - and I'm nearly deaf.
I don't believe cutting glass by thermal difference would be particularly quiet under any circumstance. YMMV with various
damping schemes.
nbk2000 October 10th, 2003, 09:57 PM

In thicknesses greater than (tongue in cheek) 0,5mm, neither thermoplastic is easily "rolled". and thicknesses of either
material that COULD be rolled would not be rigid enough IMO to serve as a window pane. temporary or not.
At no time did I say it was PC or PMA, just a flexible plastic, which could be a type of vinyl for all I know.
DropNazi October 28th, 2003, 04:37 AM

The Ceramic chips DO work thats why it is illegal in Los Angeles to have them on your person. Put a piece in your palm and
smack the window it will shatter fairly quietly and you can push the window in.
Knuckles666 December 14th, 2003, 04:44 PM

An automatic centerpunch found in some hardware stores and eBay does the job. Just put it against the bottom corner of the
window and press the button. As for heating the glass, this only works if you throw cold water over it after heating. This works
beause the glass expands when heated and rapidly contracts when cold water comes into contact with it. This cracks the glass
into thousands of pieces while still holding in the frame, making pretty quiet snapping noises. Then just push it through!
wrench352 December 15th, 2003, 08:06 PM

While its true plexi cant be rolled.You can treat it pretty roughly with out really damaging it(unlike glass)so its perfect for hasty
operations.With a lil practice you could throw up a whole sheet, by yourself,at night,in less than five minutes.and have it look
good(like glass).
Again,for what its worth its just easier to remove the whole pane of glass than it would be to cut a whole in it. especially if its
your intention to either crawl through said whole or stick an arm through.Because the whole thing is now(dependent on size)
dangerously unstable.
oh yeah they have canvas gloves that are dipped in rubber,they have a rough apearance,not smooth.I wouldnt work glass
without em,and consider them mission essential equiptment.

In my travels i have found an easy solution for breaking glass in cars and residential windows.
For cars it is fairly simple.
CARS 1: Super glue a shard of spark plug porcelian to a piece of string and flick the window swiftly(POP) Front/passenger
windows may require serveral whacks to crack sompletely.
Triangle shaped panels only take 1 hit.
CARS 2: Only works on triangle quarter glass..Use flathead screwie, dig under rubber and lever opposite direction. Preferably,
put thick cloth against window to muffle crack!
I have found the best way to take out a house window is to attach a small charge to window and detonate..lol
Okay so you want subtle entry eh..;)
Well, i'll side with wrench352 on this one..but my version varies slightly.
For one, my cutter has a lubrication tank which i fill with about 100ml of kero(ensuring constant lubrication and a very clean
consistent cut)
Anyways, i generally scribe the borser of the pane sevreral times for good luck, then i cut 1-2 layers of clear contact to suit
pane dimensions and stick them to the glass. (you know the stuff to cover books!) Nice even adhesive layer!
Now depending on how confident i am, i either apply considerable pressure with my hands, use a wooden mallet to tap the
edges or use my foot. (a crowbar has been substituted on occasions when im frustrated!)
Sometimes if you have cut deep enough into the glass, you can actually push/pull and peel the contact layers off the window
with a section of glass stuck to contact. (requires skill)
If you are going to use brute force and implode window, then find a removalists blanket(THICK) and use a section of it to
muffle the impact noise of a metallic item hitting glass.
Hope ya can understand this and i hope it helps somewhat,
Mitch

When I was a prisoner long time ago, one of my prison inmates who makes his life through burglary and thievery, taught an
improvised technique: He said you shall wet news paper sheets and have them stick on the glass pane and when you hit on it,
it simply shatters with little noise and due to (vacuum) sticking of the glass to paper, no glass shards fall thereby minimising
noise.
Since I am not a burglar or thieve, I never tested it. Maybe it's a crap and if so please forgive me I am just relating a
technique which is claimed to be regularly used by a thieve.
Regards,
Phantomhck March 10th, 2007, 12:51 PM

Most of those sound like good ideas, but what about glass with wire crossed inside of it? You can't just break it then, it would
just crack and be really obvious. Though if you did get maybe one strip of glass broken, you could use cutters and make your
way around and cut a hole out. You could then separate larger pieces and take out the whole pane where you could replace it
with another pane or something else when you finish.
wst50 March 11th, 2007, 08:31 AM

For cars, couldn't you use a screwdriver?
I think you insert the blade at the back of the window, at the bottom corner. You use the window frame as a pivot and just pull
backwards on the 'driver. This would exert a lot of force on the window, as it would be amplified by the pivoting effect, or is my
idea spouting rubbish a bit. The program I saw it on blurred out that aspect, he may have twisted the blade instead.

Ok, time to inject some science and fact into this thread.
Firstly, everyone here should know full well there are different types of glass, used in different situations.
Types
Pyrex is a low expansion glass, designed to handle high heat and shock. Commonly found in the kitchen and the lab.
Borosilicate glass is your standard glassware in the lab. Prone to cracking if thick and heated too fast.
Flint glasses are what tend to be used for lenses, as the refractive index can be finely varied across a wide range.
Soda glass is a low melting point glass, used to make things in the lab, using only the heat from an alcohol burner.
;-p
Real world
Now, outside the lab, you get three main types of glass, and some sub-types.
At the manufacturing stage, there are two types of glass.
Float glass is your basic stuff. It is floated onto a bed of molten tin, and the result is it is perfectly flat. Once cooled a bit it is
cut up. When broken, this sends shards everywhere. Found in homes across the world.
Toughened glass, as found in 99% of car side windows, is made in the same way, but the cut bits are re-heated, and the outer
surfaces are then cooled with jets of air, which sets up a tension across the pane. Even the slightest scratch can cause these
stresses to shatter the glass entirely, but, rather than lethal shards, you get the familiar small glass cubes that do only minor
cuts.
Wire-reinforced glass is toughened or float. It contains a mesh of steel wire that retains the bits if the glass is shattered. It is
not as strong as laminated glass, as the thin steel wire isn't nearly as strong as the bulk sheet of laminate and glue.
Laminated glass is a very tough composite material, made from regular float glass, and is tough enough to stop even
powerful rifle rounds if multi-layer. The front layer is glass, which is glued to a plastic sheet, which is then glued to another
sheet of glass. This can be repeated for further protection. In the UK, all windscreens are laminated, except for a few very old
cars. When broken, the shards are held in place by the plastic and other bits of glass.
Breaching
With plain glass, I have had success with heat shock from a minitorch. Heat the middle fast for 30 - 60 seconds. Don't play
the torch, and get the tip of the cone right on the glass. Then leave. When you return, there will be a break in the glass, and
you weren't about when the glass popped. Take your torch, and chase the cracks. Use pliers to help it, by adding a little strain.
This lets you silently remove the glass and place it down somewhere.
Toughened glass is almost silent to break. You get a distinctive pop, but it is pretty quiet. However, the noise from all the
glass falling out the frame will be more than enough to bring investigation if anyone hears it. To combat this, use sticky tape
or a roll of stickybacked plastic, and a bit of wire or string. Cover 95% of the window, and include the wire as a handle. Leave a
small area in a bottom corner clear if using heat to fracture the glass. If not, cover it entirely, keeping clear of the frame. Now
use anything really hard to pop the glass. Ceramic chips (from sparkplugs and other places), stones and centerpunches have
all been used. It will be very muffled. Use the handles to pull the glass from the frame entirely.
With wire glass, if the glass has shattered all around the area you are pressing on, it is possible for the wires to snap in turn
until you have removed a section. You could also cut them if you can get a tool in. Pliers will work well, as a hard pull will snap
the wires. You could try the laminate attack, but it is very unlikely to work.
Laminated glass is the hard one. I've hit a windscreen with a brick multiple times. It fractures, but holds. Even under wild
attacks from police batons, it doesn't fail totally, but it does go opaque. There are a few ideas, such as dry cleaning fluid
(carbon tetrachloride) which attacks the glue and plastic after the glass is broken away a small way. However, there is no quiet
way.
Laminate defeats are tricky. Going through the glass is hard work. If it is a high value target, drill a hole with a carbide bit.
Insert a rawlbolt with the expansion part reversed (you need one that won't fall to bits if used this way around, or use one
esigned for heavy things and fragile wall, take a look around a DIY store), with an eye. Expand as far as you can, then pull
hard, and try to remove the entire pane from the frame.
When doing this, you are basically hoping that there is nothing like the frameguard system in use. If there is, you will need a
truck! If not, hopefully the sheet will collapse away from the frame, and be drawn out the hole. This will work with the security
films as long as they haven't been screwed to the frame, and also against plastic sheets (see below). If screwed to the frame,
it is unlikely the rawlbolt will hold before pulling through. If it is, then don't drill in the center so the force pulls more on one
side than the others, and the holes might pull through one by one, but be prepared for a fight and lots of noise!
Other
Other things you might find are plastic sheeting rather than glass. This melts away usually, but it might burn or smoke. See
also the laminated glass attack above. Chemicals such as carbon tet or chloroform do a number on this stuff, as do the
fibreglass attacks.
Fibreglass is common, but that is opaque and easily spotted, and a set of really heavy scissors or tin snips will get you in
quietly, if you can either peel an edge or drill a starter hole.
Double or triple glazing is generally deal with by repeating the same trick two or three times.
Oops
The one most likely to catch you out is security sheeting on the window. The window looks perfectly normal, but there is a
plastic sheet bonded to the back. Common in older business premises to bring single glazing up to safety spec. This makes it
very like laminated glass, but with only one sheet of glass. With access to the wrong side, a knife will easily defeat it, as the
plastic can be scored. However, from the outside, you will find nothing so easy. Heat might work, but is more likely to make
the sheet smoke as temperature inside will be impossible to control.
Any questions?
This concludes todays lesson.
Fourfifth March 16th, 2007, 04:51 PM

The easiest method I've found, and can be done with 2 is buy some Golden Syrup and smear over the glass, then press
brown parcel paper into the syrup, strike once and peel the glass out with the paper :)
Hope that 1st post is good enough for a newbie ;)
WMD March 17th, 2007, 02:43 PM

While I haven't tried it myself, I read that using a CO2 fire extinguisher to cool down laminated glass helps breaking it. Using
the extinguisher you can get down to about -30 C if I recall correctly at which point the plastic becomes quite brittle.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Auto-Cremation - Archive File
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nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I recorded a show about spontaneous human combustion (I'm into X-files type shit) and they had a segment about how a scientist discovered a means by which a body can be
burned to ashes even more thoroughly than in a funeral crematorium, just by using the bodies ow n fat.
They experimented w ith a pig, which has similar body fat as a human, and lit it up w rapped in a cotton blanket. It burned for 7 hours(!) to fine ash.
The secret is to ignite the clothes w hich, when they burn through the skin, act as a w ick, pulling the fat into the flame. The body then turns into a candle, slow burning till even
the bones burn to fine ashes.
The clothes have to be of a type that chars to a charcoal, not melt. Cotton, w ool, and probably most other natural fibers will work. Synthetics won't work because they just melt
into a blob. That eliminates nylon and dacron.
The heat produced by this slow burning is intense enough to melt TVs and such inside a room, but the fire doesn't spread beyond the body, leaving the room intact.
This brings to mind an interesting body disposal technique....
Stun someone with a TASER so there's no blood splatter or broken bones, light them up, and watch them burn.
There'll be no ballistics, toxicology, or other BS to trip you up. What little evidence there was (burn marks) are burnt up w ith the body.
Most of the people who've burned up this way have been women. That's probably because they have a high body fat content. But I'm sure men could be burnt up too as long
as they're not a body builder or super skinny. At least it'd be worth a try.
Anybody have a dead animal they could experiment w ith this technique on?
Since I recorded the show I'll be making a Real Media video file about this so you can see for yourselves.
------------------
Go here to dow nload the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to dow nload the NBK2000 videos.
Maddoc
Moderator
Posts: 537
From: Dizneland
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would be interesting to try on a pig when I return to the island. What with foot and mouth there must be plenty of dead piglets to try that on
I say a similar program w hen I was in England.
Murder Dectectives, thursday nights, 8pm, channel five (w atch it people!). They did one on spontanious combustion with a block of lard (foot high 6 inchs w ide cylidrical) and a
piece of cloth.
They wrapped the lard with cloth, then lit it, It burned for a good few hours, the cloth acted as a wick.
They also show ed pictures of a still burning corpse that someone had murdered. The body w as on leaves. She burnt for a long time , nearly totally into ash, the last thing
burning w as a few fragments and some residual fat on the leaves. The bones were ash.
What might be interesting would be too make it look like they were messing with gas etc in their garage (car work) and caught fire, collapsed after rolling in a blanket in an
attempt to put out the flames, and burnt to death.
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ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I saw the same show on TLC. very interesting indeed. Wasnt a small amount of fuel poured onto the blanket though?
------------------
technology is a wonderful servant, but a bitch of a master.
Explosives Archive
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
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Maybe someone knows about that body cleaning technique, that will answ er the question why the victims have been w emen ...
phyrelord
Frequent Poster
Posts: 135
From:
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yeah you have to use a fuel, the one woman had cologne or perfume thrown on her if it's the same program i w atched. That is pretty cool though. they wouldn't be able to
figure out what happened if you used something inconspicuous like that as a fuel
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
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A somewhat gruesome subject, but records introduced at Nuremburg tended to support the defense contention that the amount of fuel consumed in the death camp crematoria
did not reconcile w ith the number of dead cited by allied prosecutors, and therefore charges of mass murder were technically defective. This defense stratagem failed because
the trial court refused to even consider it.
Years later the whole "fuel issue" was re-examined in the light of engineering documents uncovered in the context of claims for civil damages against the manufacturers of the
crematoria equipment used at Auschw itz and other camps. These papers demonstrated that in designing the ovens and estimating their throughput the designers had carefully
taken into account the fuel value of body fat.
The calculation was based on a sliding scale of furnace utilization - the more bodies per hour, the lower the fuel requirement. The ideal was a "break even" point where the
process w as self-sustaining and no additional fuel was required to maintain incineration - the bodies and heat retention in the furnaces themselves provided all that was needed.
A reference from the Irving v Lipstadt judgment:
"7.65 In addition to the architectural draw ings, there are other documents which, according to the Defendants, lend support to their contention that there were gas chambers at
the camp w hich w ere used for genocidal purposes. I shall not itemise all the documents identified by the Defendants as belonging in this category. They include a patent
application for multi-muffle ovens made by Topf. Although the patent application
does not in fact relate to the ovens supplied to Auschw itz in 1942/3, it is said that the principle is the same. The two features of the application on w hich the Defendants focus
are, firstly, the method of employing fat corpses to speed the rate at which corpses can be burned and, secondly, the claim that no fuel is required after the initial two day pre-
heating period, no more fuel will be required because of the amount of heat generated by the burning corpses. Van Pelt noted that both these features are reflected in the
account given by Tauber of the way in which the corpses were incinerated."
A thorough search would probably turn up some actual engineering numbers assuming anyone has the stomach for something that's obviously way beyond theoretical.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fuel w as added in the pig test and the perfume w as splashed on the woman. But the pig test was rigged to insure ignition and the intention of the perfume was to light the
entire house, not just the body, on fire.
In actual practice, you'd have to NOT use a fuel in order to avoid any suspicion of arson from ruining an otherwise perfect killing.
In the SHC cases, the ignition sources were candles, cigarettes, and matches.
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sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
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I also saw a show like that but NBK you said no toxicology. That is not true the show i saw (CSI). The lady had a amount of sleeping pills in her. Her husband went to sleep and
when he woke up she was a pile of ashes only makin the ceeling above her a bit burnt and her ancle down was intact that is how they found she had taken a large amount of
sleeping pills before her cigaret ignighted her nightgown and she burnt to death.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
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Seal, you'll notice my post said no toxicology when using a TASER. Obviously if there's anything left they can analyze it. That's w hy you can't use drugs to incapacitate the
target. Strictly soft tissue trauma or electrical.
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Mick
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From:
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the smarter w ay to do it is to get an un-treated bail of cotton, and put the body next to it, on top of it, or w hatever, and just wet the bail of cotton - and wala! no body, no
bail, no evience.
for those of you who do not know, fresh (and i mean fresh) cotton bails w ill spontaneously burst into flame when w et. and they will burn for fucking hours - days even.
to give you an example, a friend of my dads, who is a truck driver was driving along one day w ith 40 bails of cotton on the back of his truck, and it started to rain - now, you
alw ays have a several big tarps covering the bails so they don't get w et, but somehow a little bit of water managed to get into one of the bails.
needless to say, an hour later the whole truck was ablaze, and it burnt for 4 days, and when they came back to the truck on the fifth day, 60% of the trailer, and most of the
cabin had melted
what was left of the truck was glowing for then following 2 days.
its also dam near impossible to put out as well, because w hen you w et it with a fire hose, or fire extinguisher the flames go out, but 10mins later it starts smoking again, then
just bursts back into flames
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
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Cotton bails aren't very inconspicuous.
"The body was burnt to ashes in a blazing fire, and the detectives were confused by the presence of the cotton bail till they traced the serial number of the bail to the murderer"
Recent studies by English researchers and noted American fire scientist Dr. John DeHaan, author of "Kirk's Fire Investigation", have determined burn rates for burning bodies by
studying fire effects on pig carcasses. Prior to the tests, Dr. DeHaan had estimated the burn rate of a human body from actual photographs of a murdered woman found burning
in woods. The animal tests confirmed his estimate.
But seriously, I found some more info about this.
"Recent studies by English researchers and noted American fire scientist Dr. John DeHaan, author of "Kirk's Fire Investigation", have determined burn rates for burning bodies by
studying fire effects on pig carcasses. Prior to the tests, Dr. DeHaan had estimated the burn rate of a human body from actual photographs of a murdered woman found burning
in woods. The animal tests confirmed his estimate.
They have found that a body burns at a rate of approximately 8 to 24 pounds per hour, and the rate of heat released from the burning body (as in a smoldering fire) is very low
with a steady flame height in the 16 to 18 inch range."
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[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited March 26, 2001).]
BoB-
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From:
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Yeah, but 7 hours!?! thats an awful long time to gaurd a body, how much smoke did the piggy give off?
frostfire
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From:
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hmmm, body disposal can be made very simple,
I watch sometime ago in Discovery channel of a serial killler that soak the victim for days in a chalk? like concentrated solution, the body will be dried up in 1 week and can be
burnt into very fine ashes.....the guy had only been caught by an accidental trespassing of a teenager into the basement...otherwise, I doubt forensic can analyze/locate ashes
spreaded in ocean or river
That SHC is quite neat, is there any upgraded way that make the body burnt mush faster??
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1478
From: somew here in florida
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how about taking the body to the local steel mill and ditching it in the slag, or how about a bathtub w/ liner full of an acid
Anthony
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From: England
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The slow roasting is what disintergrates the bones, so rapid burning would probably leave evidence behind.
Trouble w ith the acid is still whether it would get rid of the bones. Plus w hat are you going to do with the "solution" afterwards? Emptying down the plug hole w ould be too
obvious as well as the person who recently bought 100-150 1L litre bottles of H2SO4...
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
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I finally converted the video into a Real Video file. It's posted in my video section under "Auto-Cremation". Link is below .
There's no sound because I'm having difficulty with my video digitizer.
Acid isn't very effective. I've pictures of people w ho's bodies w ere soaked in acid vats and they just shrivel up, but their still recognizable as bodies.
If you can get a body into a steel furnace then that'd be the shit!
But the rest of us w ill have to get by w ith burning them in their ow n fat.
I think what you're referring to by "chalk" is a dehydrating salt of some sort, perhaps calcium chloride or quicklime. When a body is dehydrated like a mummy, it burns like
wood.
From the show it was obvious that the burning bodies didn't draw attention because they sort of smouldered and didn't set the rest of the room on fire. Plus indoors is a much
more "natural" setting than a body in the middle of a field.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Raising Machiavelli
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nbk2000 July 3rd, 2003, 11:47 PM

The thought has long stuck in my mind as to how one could raise their sons (daughters being worthless except for marriage
alliances) to be modern Machiavellis.
Men to whom the game of Power is second nature. Who's ability to manipulate and control those around them gives them
Power. They would have been raised from birth to the understanding that the world is not a nice place, that people are selfish
and looking out only for their own interests, that what people say and actually do are light years apart, and that there's only
two types of people in the world: The Powerful and the powerless.
Now, while the RTPB is a step in the right direction, and the 48LOP also helpful, I'm afraid it is not enough.
"The lesson hard learned is never forgotten" NBK2000
To be truely effective, the laws of power and the RTPB must be instilled from birth, till their use requires no more thought of
then taking a breath.
The problem becomes one of how you can instill these lessons to be used against others, while still retaining the dictorial
power of parentage, without introducing any confusing conflicts within the childs mind that may trip him up later in life.
While it'd be nice to know your children are powerful, it's not so nice when they get to that point by standing on your corpse. :)
Any such conditioning would have to have a fail-safe built into the psychology of the child...a phobia...that would reduce him to
a fetal curl in a corner if ever he should turn against you. I don't know exactly what it would be, since it'd have to be
something he'd not remember himself, and be so rare as to be virtually impossible to randomly trigger, but reliable enough to
save your life if he had a gun to your head and was about to kill you.
A sound, an obscure phrase, a gesture, or something. I'll work on it.
The conditioning would have to start before the the State Sheeple Indoctrination Facility (Public Schools) got a hold of him and
started their brute-force molding of his mind into that of an acceptle sheeple "citizen".
Given a blank mind, and all the knowledge of psychiatric conditioning at our disposal, plus the obvious advantage of a
sociopathic parent ;) who'd be willing to do a "Manchurian Candidate" on his own children, I think the possibilities to be
endless.
Multiple children would be required, since there'd likely be an attrition of at least half to various psychosis/insanity while the
techniques were perfected.
The first lesson the child would be taught is silence. Silence is a wellspring of power since it conceals both presence and
intentions. If you can train a 2 year old to be silent (for a short period of time), then you've already started him off well.
The lessons would be applied in incremental stages, at suitable ages, and for longer and more intense periods of time as the
child grows.
The lessons on the use of killing and violence would be taught as late teens, just as their about to be kicked out of home and
into the real world.
This is just a VERY brief posting on the subject, since the process would encompass the better part of two decades. I'm posting
this here to stir up some thoughts about the matter.
How would one go about creating a modern-day machiavellian type personality? One that YOU can control.
chemwarrior July 4th, 2003, 02:41 AM

One possibility to prevent the SSIF from 'harming' his learning, would be to home school the child. I dont know about any
particular laws about that, but hey, its a good way to make sure he learns what he needs, and keeps him away from the SSIF
instructors and their meddling ways.
Also, a good thing to do would be to keep the child in a military-like training style. By that I mean calisthenics every morning
to keep him in top shape, and regular trainging to climb, swim, hide, and the like. That along with the 'power' lessons, the boy
would already be quite formidable. (regular high stress situations would also help to keep his mind sharp and alert at all
times) And combine all that with weapons/killing training as a late teen....
Al Nobel July 4th, 2003, 06:39 PM

Ive thougt a lot about this thematic.My conclusion is that its nearly impossible to create such a character.
Every child and teen comes to the point where they start to enquestion their parents oppinion and their education
methods.The worst result would be a peace loving hippy.Its not completely impossible,but you need the perfect
surroundings.The Hitler Jugend is a good example.They lived in a society in which personal strengh was regarded as the aim
you had to reach.No disturbing influences could reach teir minds.
Generally seen such conditions doesnt exist.Machiavellian characters develop by its own.They are an resesult of their time
and of personal genius.Many of them have developed in an catholic surrounding:Mazarin,Stalin (not directly catholic
sourroundings,but in his youth he wanted to become an orthodox priest),Hitler and many more.
The only chance I see is to make his or her (I think that women have greater abilitys to manipulate other people especially
men) live as difficult as possible.Those who are to weak will fail,but those who understand how the world works will be kings.If
they are really pissed of live it would be a good if they find il principe somewhere in your house.
nbk2000 July 4th, 2003, 11:09 PM
The thing all those people you mentioned have in common is very strict upbringings, and early adulthood spent in adversity
(war/prison). Steel is forged from fire.
I wouldn't be trying to create a new Fuhrer (though I wouldn't be disappointed if I did :D), rather just ensure that my children,
and future generations of my lineage, don't fall into the sheeple trap of blind obedience.
If, because of my initial training in power manipulation and control of the self, three generations from now the Anti-Christ, or a
new Fuhrer, arose from my lineage, then my efforts would have been worth it.
Basically, what I'm aiming for is a combination of (for illustrative purposes only) Dune Mentat, Kung-Fu Monk, and Versailles
Courtier. (I know, I know, movies...but it's to illustrate a point).
Self control of ones thoughts, emotions, and fears gives one power of oneself. One must be able to control themselves before
they can control others.
The project (child) would be home raised and schooled as much as possible, with controlled interaction with others his age, to
ensure favorable results. See, I figure that, if the child is placed in such position (repeatedly) to excercise some kind of control
over his peers, and this experience is repeated often, then he'll come to liking it, and will do what is necessary to repeat the
experience.
This will occasionally be counterpointed by him being placed in a position where others have power over him, and it will always
be unpleasant. Not OK, or even tolerable, but actively unpleasant, so he'll seek to avoid such situations.
The project will be ruled by an iron hand during early childhood. He will learn by example that authority is based on physical
power, just as it is in the real world. All law is backed by the threat of violence. He'll come to know this fact as his daily reality
because disobedience will bring pain.
Pain and adversity will breed an iron will. Spartan living will make lack of comfort the norm. Lack of privacy means no sense of
body shame as regards nudity or bodily functions. The only secrecy he'll have is that which he earns by evading my continual
surveillance.
The perpetual whining of a child begging for a toy, and the whining when they dont' get it, won't be something my project will
do, since he'll learn from a very early age that no amount of crying or whining will accomplish what he wants.
Just like here, discipline will be instantly, and harshly, applied. It won't be random or without reason, since it's purpose is not
to terrorize, but to instruct. If there are two, and both say the other did some wrong, then I may either punish both, or flip a
coin to determine who gets punishment.
The first teaches that ratting is pointless, since the rat will be punished as well. The second teaches that outside authority is
random and disinterested, and can hurt the innocent as well as ignore the guilty, and so is not to be relied upon. A perfect
duplication of the legal system of any country.
If one child set up the other to take the beating, then the first one gets the beating for having not CYA'd. The second gets a
beating, not for setting up the first, but for getting caught setting up the first.
If I dont' catch the second doing the set up, then the training is working, and the first is motivated to become better at his
lessons. :)
While other children are playing with toys, my project will be learning with tools. My 5 y.o. project will swing a real (small)
hammer, and hammer real nails, into real wood, while the sheeple use plastic crap to simulate it. He'll learn that carelessness
equals pain at a very early age.
Physical training will take the form of "chores" and games. No PT or such. Rather, like Forrest, he will be made to run
everywhere. :D
Same with firearms training.
First comes exposure to firearms from the time he's old enough to talk and walk unsupported. Just touching and seeing them.
Then hearing them in the distance, then up close, and seeing them in action. Starting at 5 y.o., it's nerf guns against
cartoonish (but humanoid) targets that pop up at random and fall down when shot (stimulus-response). As he gets older, the
nerf is replaced with realistic airsoft and more realistic targets. By the time he's 10, the targets are fully human with photo-
realistic faces, the gun is high-power CO2 rifles and pistols. 13 y.o sees rimfire weapons and tactics. 15 y.o. is major caliber
pistols and centerfire rifles, along with gunfighting and such. It will start out as a game of "zapping the monster (who look
suspiciously like cops :p), but will eventually morph into combative gunfighting and precision marksmanship.
He will learn to hunt, and kill, just as I did, at a very early age. He will learn that life is short, that it can end unexpectedly (like
for the squirrel he just shot), and that there's no such thing as fair. This exposes him to death, with him as its instigator.
He will be taught to seek any advantage, even if others are too weak to use it themselves and call it cheating, because life is
(again) inherently unfair and only favors those who take advantage of opportunites when they present themselves.
Sexual control will also be a very necessary part of his life. The ability to control ones sexual urges makes one resistant (if not
immune) to sexual manipulation. Powerful men attract women likes flies to shit. And how many powerful men have been
brought down by women? Too many.
The temptation of young lust will be difficult to suppress, but it must be done. Wanton rutting is a sign of weakness of
character.
In the end, the project will probably be sociopathic, or functionally psychotic, but he will be a predator amoung prey, a wolf
amoungst sheep. By applying the training to several subjects at once, success is likely with at least one.
I don't envision having to deal with a female subject, but if so, then her training will run similiar to the male, with the alteration
of sexualization beginning at an early age. A womans power derives from her sexuality.
If the subject is attractive, then she'll be taught to utilize that as much as possible while the flower of youth is still in full
bloom, to consolidate her power before age diminishs her sexual power.
If she's ugly, then the lessons of power will be even more important to her as she competes against the "pretty ones". Unlike
the "pretty ones", however, she'll already know that physical beauty fade, but power becomes more beautiful the longer it is
held. :)
In the end, it wouldn't matter if he (or she) was a peace loving hippy...as long as they were a peace loving hippy that could
shape world opinion to their desires and make politicians kow-tow to their goals.
Hell, look at Mother Teresa. She had shitloads of power! And don't believe the media image of "poverty" either. She was
driven around in mercedes limos and flown by private 747's. :D
Skean Dhu July 5th, 2003, 12:46 AM

it would appear that NBK is going to create a 'pretender' sometime in the near future. sounds like you've got everything
planned out down to the crossed T's and dotted I's.
an interesting endeveur to say the least, i just hope you have succes.

I plan to raise my kids in the way I wish I was raised.
I plan to give them every strength, and rid them of every weakness.
I know it sounds corny, but I wish them to have the life I could have had.
Personally, I don't think it's right to 'brainwash' a child into doing what you want. I plan to convince them it's the right way to
go, in a way that they choose for them selves. I certainly will be dishing out the pain when it comes to whining, as it is the
most annoying thing on this earth. They will be exposed to my way of thinking just by growing up with my influence, so i doubt
that much extra attention is needed, considering how much children typically bond with parents.
I would like to see them working on problems designed for children much older than them, and doing well. By my own
standards, I am fairly smart, (maybe I just talk to too many fools) and I hope my child is smarter still. With early work done
on reading and writing skills as a start, I can already put him one step ahead of any other children his age.
My mother is a teacher, and thanks to her early reading / writing tasks she set me, I won a number of english awards,
especially in earlier years. Knowing that to be true gives me much confidence in the method.
I wouldn't home school a child. I believe that social interaction will prove more usefull than a (slightly) better education. I will
however be taking a very close interest into my childs education, and sending them to a respected school, most probably a
private school. I know what most people think about private schools especially those that didn't go to one, but I know for a
fact that my (private) schools results in nearly all areas topped surrounding schools by far.
Anyway, to 'fool' a child into adopting your ideals and practices will not work to strengthen them, but weaken them. A variety of
views should ba avaliable, but making them (through some maybe very subversive means) choose the right one would give
them much more confidence than if you taught the to believe what you said.
Basically, I want my kid to believe in the things I do, not because I do, but because it makes sense to. In that way, they will
believe the same convictions you wish them too, but will be a lot more confident in their choices.
I'm talking fairly broadly here, as I have litle experience with children. I'm hoping my science (inc. psychology) degree will help
me out there. Actually, the whole positive / negative : reinforcement / punishment schedule will work quite nicely to my
advantage, knowing in what way a punishment / reinforcement will affect a child and for what reasons. It's common sense
when you think about it, but it certainly cleared things up for me.
When it comes to "early adulthood spent in adversity" I doubt I would let my kid be stupid enough to get caught / jailed, and
I doubt a war would be convenient anough to turn up. I hope army cadets, and a very strict home life will be the push that is
needed in that direction. Besides, I have no access to weapons at the moment, so cadets is a great place to start that up.
Where else can you fire an automatic militaryrifle at age 13 legally ?
"Generally seen such conditions doesnt exist.Machiavellian characters develop by its own" I know that's the easiest way to
look at it, but just because it hasn't been done / proven, doesn't mean it won't work. It certainly couldn't hurt to give your child
a push in the right direction......
nbk2000 July 13th, 2003, 12:29 AM

I've made a conceptual drawing of what my child may look like.
http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/Hello_NBK.jpg
The body of a god, the spirit of a warrior, and a charming demeanor to bequile the unwary.
Be afraid...be very afraid...;) :D

NBK, sometimes you terrify me... and this happens to be one of those time....:)
Hehe, isnt that the face from 'hello kitty' or something like that??
Nico July 16th, 2003, 07:58 PM

Have you seen Soldier (http://www.imdb.com/Title?0120157) with Kurt Russell?
The children go through some pretty hardcore indoctrination - academics, hand-to-hand, weapons, watching animals kill each
other, etc.
I liked when Kurt's character shot through the 'innocent' in order to kill the 'bad guy' as well.
nbk2000 July 17th, 2003, 01:11 AM

I saw it on TV, thus it was edited because I never saw the animal killing, nor the shooting through the hostage scene. :(
The cliche of "Ultimate Soldiers", kids trained to be killers, etc is overdone. I could name any number of movies or anime with
that kind of theme.
My idea isn't to raise some automaton that kills on command. No. Rather, a well rounded individual is well prepared for the
harsh reality of life. A young man/woman who isn't going to be fazed by people doing malicious things towards them, nor allow
anyone to get away with it without regretting it dearly.
They wouldn't be "evil", in that they go about wantonly inflicting pain and misery on others for the hell of it, but neither will
they be "good" in letting people pull shit on them without suffering consequences for assuming that my child was a sheep
when, in fact, they're wolves who happen to disguise themselves to move freely among the sheep. :)
I like the idea of my offspring reading and assimilating machiavelli and clauswitz while others their age are reading the latest
mind rape comics pushed out by the mass media.
BTW, I'm a really big Rage Against The Machine fan. Yes, I know it's muds, but damn, the music is just so angry at The
System! :D
The way to a pure and powerfull mind lies in avoiding contamination during the early formative years. No TV or radio...period!
No unsupervised internet, minimal SSIF interference, supervising who his friends are, etc.
This is not to say that there won't be any freedom of thought on his part. Just that he'll have to be trained in how to think for
himself, while recognizing the ungodly influence that mass marketing holds over most other people, and how mass media
shapes opinions of people who are too blind and stupid to think for themselves.
He will be trained, not in what to think, but in how to think. To analyze, not blindly accept. To learn the counter-points of a
subject, and how to extract the facts without being biased by the rhetoric of the authors.
Nihilist July 17th, 2003, 02:33 AM

NBK: I wouldn't suggest limiting his freedom that much. If you do that then he will be too different from his peers, and they
won't like him. Which, even though all of the school children will be sheeple, will have a HUGE impact on his emotional
state(causing him to be anti-social and hateful). Although anti-socialness may seem good and hatefulness may seem useful,
it won't be, because social skills will allow him to "disguise himself as a sheep" and overtly hating everyone too much, will
cause another Columbine,or cause blindness to things apparent to the mind un-clouded by hate(which could be good or bad,
depending on exactly what you are trying to accomplish). You should allow him to watch TV, but watch things with him and
point out all the stupid bullshit, and "brainwashing" in the news/media. I actually do have a different insight into this than
*most* of you because I am a teenager myself(i'm not sure if this would qualify as instant expert or not, but i'm sorry if I
broke that rule). I could be a test dummy!
also when I say him, I mean him or her, i'm just lazy.
Nihilist July 17th, 2003, 02:35 AM

Sorry for double posting/post whoring, but it won't let me edit my post. I just wanted to say some other good bands for "anger
against the system" are slipknot, soulfly, disturbed, and godsmack.

Why the heck would you make another post if it wouldnt let you edit just so that you could mention the names of a few bands?
?:rolleyes:
stickfigure July 17th, 2003, 07:26 AM

One possible problem that I see is that if you are too strict and make them emotionally numb they might rebel and take you
out. Nothing is more dangerous than a double edged sword that knows all your tricks because you taught and trained him.
Your children need love and loyalty to you and this isn't beat into them. I know that NBK isn't a touchy, feely, lots of love kind
of guy but, what's to keep him from turning into a Menadez clone and giving you both barrels in the face. Loyalty and respect
are two traits that will keep him from sending you to the gas chamber in his Empire.
nbk2000 July 18th, 2003, 09:55 AM

Did I ever say I was going to beat them mercilessly? I would apply discipline, not "whippin' the lil' bastard with a 2x4 while on a
drunken rampage" kind of beatings, there is a difference. ;)
There's a saying:
"I can teach you all that you know, but I can never teach you all that I know"
Meaning there's always going to be some things that you'll know that you won't even know that you know, so it's impossible to
pass it all on, short of a brain dump (oh, for a nueral interface...;)).
Besides, it's very unlikely that I'll live to be old enough to have to worry about him turning the barrel on me. I'll just have to
hope that what training I give him before I die sticks and that my woman/family continue it once I'm gone (unlikely :mad: ).
Stick, you have to wait a minute between postings, part of the "flood" protection on the board to keep morons from posting
hundreds of posts in a topic in an attempt to ruin it.
knowledgehungry July 18th, 2003, 11:07 AM

I'm curious as to how you are going to procure your protege. There are women who allow their eggs to be donated, and then
women who will carry the baby till it is born, whoever this all costs money. Rage Against the Machine, they are angry yes but
they are also quite Red. Also feminists also animal rights activists basically all things i hate(they are also all about freeing
mumia:mad: )
nbk2000 July 19th, 2003, 12:37 AM

I'm curious as to how you are going to procure your protege. There are women who allow their eggs to be donated, and then
women who will carry the baby till it is born, whoever this all costs money.
I've got a basement, a chain, a gun, and a shovel. What more do I need? ;)
Seriously, I'd do it the old fashioned way, by tricking a female into thinking I love her long enough to get her impregnated.
Once she gives birth, she's ditched and I'm gone with "the package".
Or, if she's pliant enough, I'll keep her around to do all the menial stuff needed with children.
Yeah, RATM is communistic, but listening to "Viet Now" (I think that's the title) is just so cathartic. :D As for their politics, who
gives a fuck, they broke up...kinda like the Communists did! :p
stickfigure July 19th, 2003, 08:21 AM

Whoa, NBK! That sounds alittle like the basement scence in "Pink Flamingos";)
Have you ever read "Dune"? I think that's how you'd want your kid to be raised. His Mom would be a concubine and not
attached to you only as a trainer of the kid and your lover. She had her own part to play in Paul's training and Leto, Paul's
father had him trained by the best men in his organization. Paul was trained to kill from a very young age also he was trained
to rule.
Of cource there a lot of other facters in the story like thousands of years of breeding, sand wroms and spice addiction. All that
aside, Paul was exactly what kind of son I think you would want or even Paul's son Leto II.
The Dune series is really a good tale in politics, revolution, and human nature, as I said before your son would have to be
loyal as I remeber your immortality thread and you are going to have to live with him forever.:( So to keep from killing each
other and sharing the known universe you'll both have to learn to get along, and be on good terms with each other.
As others have mentioned I think it would be better for your son to be involved with others his own age, he will need the social
interaction and positive reinforcement of his peers looking to him as their leader. He won't be able to rise to power alone and
needs a few trusted friends that he can rely on and form into his "inner circle" of power. These will be his advisors and
department heads that will control certain elements of his government. He should probably be involved in sports and the
student government as these will be valuable training aids for him in his future career as a God. As that is what he will be to
the people once you both attain immortality. He will also need these experiences so he isn't looking back at his childhood
"lost" and wonder what he missed out on.
Multiple female relationships in his teenage years will train him in the art of seduction and lovemaking so he is always
comfortable and confident around women. And not a repressed, shy loser, that stays home on the weekends and wishes he
was something. This is also important so he doesn't fall in love with his first piece of ass and become a total pussy-whipped,
waste of all the time and training that you have put into him. He needs to be desencitized somewhat and also look for the
most potential in a woman for his own kids. As I assume your main goal is to have a line of your protege's that will rule
mankind until the end of the Universe.
You know, there has to be some woman out there that want's exactly what you do and she probably would be just as willing to
raise him as a future ruler. Hopefully she won't be the type that conditions him in secret to take you out later. I think you
selection of a suitable woman would be the most important task. She would need to be smart and good looking to provide the
best qualities for your son, as a base for his upbringing.
All that said, I think this would be a very time consuming but, potentially very worthwhile project, the payoffs would be well
worth the years invested and would at the very least, turn out a worthwhile person that would be heads above the average Joe
Idiot. At least you won't raise another white-trash deadbeat that sucks off the system and might as well be castrated before he
pollutes humanity with his own bastard children. On that last statement, if you see your son turning out to be a dregg and
potentially to the afore mentioned, take him in and get him a vasectomy and move on to another protege'. You will have
eternity if your immortally plan works out.:)
static_firefly July 19th, 2003, 10:11 AM

Do you want this child to act on initive or only to your commands. Perhaps brainwash him into believeing your god?
I personally wouldnt do that. Sure hed see the world for what it really is and could do alot, but would he be happy. Sounds like
a stupid saying but id rather be happy then powerful and angry.
Nihilist July 19th, 2003, 03:26 PM

Also, you should give him logic problems and riddles to solve, at an early age. That is proven to greatly increase their
intelligence and problem solving skills later in life. Also supposedly playing classical music to it, when it is a baby will increase
it's intelligence.
nbk2000 July 20th, 2003, 01:14 AM

Have I ever read "Dune"? Dude, that's like one of my favorite movies! I've also read all the books too, several times.
Coincidentally, I've been going through "God Emperor of Dune" on my lunch breaks at work, highlighting those parts that I
feel would be worth possible inclusion into the RTPBs, or as illustrative points in the "Lessons in Power" section of my DVD.
'Course, Paul was the son of a Duke, who ruled an entire planet, and was part of a galactic empire that had existed for
thousands of years. Royalty could be expected to train their offspring in such a fashion, just like they used to in the ol' days of
empire here on earth.
But I've not much interest in raising a line of ubermensch that ultimately culminates in a great (to the nth degree) grandson
that's a giant worm! :eek: Though if he's the emperor of the known universe, I guess I could come to love him. ;)
I seriously doubt that I'll be immortal, even if I manage to get frozen, because of all the possible reasons I'd be thawed,
damaged, lost, etc, but I'm willing to gamble on even the remotest chance of it, since the only other alternative is to be worm
food.
So if I only succeded in creating a self-sufficient man who's capable of acting of his own accord, and who can think on his own
without politicans/priests/media talking heads being able to manipulate him, then I've already succeded in creating a person
who is in the 1% of humanity that is capable of thinking for themselves.
One thing I've learned is that friends are your only true enemies. Every "friend" I've ever had turned into a traitor later. I've
come to appreciate the lessons I've learned from this, and come to the realization that "enemies" are the only true friends a
person can have. For it is through our enemies that we learn our own true strengths and weaknesses, without the blinders of
"friendship" blinding us to the truth, as was also stated in LOP #2 "...you have more to fear from friends than from enemies".
So I'll be sure that he has lots of "friends", and to make sure that every one of them turns on him, to ingrain this lesson so
deeply into his psyche that he'll never forget it for as long as he lives. The sooner he's freed of the delusion of friendship, the
better off he'll be.
That's not to say that I won't encourage him to develop and master the art of social manipulation. On the contrary, I want him
to be able to make anyone else believe that he's the best friend they ever had. Let others make the mistake of believing in
friendship, so that my sons may profit from their foolishness.
If I can, I'd arrange it so that he'd have only two women in his life. The first would be an older woman who'd basically train him
in sex, with no delusions about "love" and marriage being involved, like it might with a girl his age. This "relationship" would
last until the novelty of sex wore off. This should keep him content and constrained, since what girl his age could match the
skills of the more mature woman he's already fucking, right?
Then, once it's time, he'd be steered towards a suitable partner his age for marriage, into a politically/financially powerful
family (if possible).
Within a year of his first son being born, the wife dies of a tragic illness, leaving him a widower with a child to raise alone with
only the aid of his loving family. :D
By eliminating the wife (he wouldn't know, of course) while the "love" bond is still intense, this would hopefully immunize him
against the sexual predations of any gold-digging females, since none would ever be able to equal his "beloved" wife. Thus
he'll be able to focus solely on raising his son and building his powerbase without the distraction of pussy.
Genetics aren't the only factor in intelligence in a child. I've several books about reproductive technologies that I've gathered
over the years that explain some of the technologies that have been studied towards the goal of human enhancment.
For instance, the use of a vacuum chamber around the torso of the breeder, to increase blood flow to the fetus during the last
few weeks of pregnancy, has been found to result in "frighteningly precocious" children.
It is based on the theory that the fetus, in the last few weeks of pregnancy, is actually being starved of oxygen because it's
too large for the womb (because of evolution), resulting in a large loss of brain ganglia. But, by using vacuum to increase
oxygenated blood flow throught the fetus, you're preventing this "brain death", and allowing the child to be born with a much
larger amount of functional brain cells.
These children were walking and answering phone calls at less than 2 years old! :eek:
Then there's the nutrional aspects of feeding them neurotransmitter precursors like choline.
Logic, and puzzle solving skills, are going to be part and parcel of his ongoing education.
If, in the worst case scenario, he turns into some kind of social dreg, then I'll just have to arrange for him do one job for me
that proves terminal for him, while being profitable enough to recuperate my investment in him. Though, if he is a dreg, it's
also because I fucked up in his training, thus I'd have to revise my own program, though I'd likely not have enough life left to
do so (this time around ;)) to be able to re-try with a new son.
Also, there's the old saying "Don't put all your eggs in one basket". Nothings to say that I can't have several sons by various
woman around the country (or world) who know nothing about each other, and travel between them, so that I've several
different heirs being groomed at the same time.
Of course, most of the above presupposes access to a lot of money, so that's the first thing that'll need to happen before I
can raise Machiavelli 2nd Ed.
Sarevok July 20th, 2003, 07:07 AM

If you want to put your parenting ideas to practice, I wish you good luck. I have no additional advice, but I wish to assure you
that this kind of children education was already tested and it works.
The proof: Hamilcar tried to transform a toddler (who usually becomes a fool) into a great man, and he succeeded. His son,
Hannibal (247 b.C. - 183 b.C.) learned all the teachings that his father had in mind for him - to mistrust, to wait, to intrigue,
to persuade, to conquer, to kill, and also to hate and destroy Rome.
So, if it worked, it can work again.
metal dragon July 21st, 2003, 03:48 AM

In the child s p ower point of view I would recommend teaching him that power is everything and respect is vital in order to
succeed in life. I believe that there is only one true way of getting po wer, tha t is earn respect through fear su re there are
other ways of doing it but this shows superiority. Teach your son to be a leader and nothing less than perfection will do, to rid
all failures and fallings from his life. The only reason we are put on this earth to re-produce the greatest possible of spring. I
like your idea of the women who is mature and he can relieve his sexual urges on her. His mind would not be clouded by the
false sense of love, I believe there is no such thing as love; it is an illusion it does not exist. I do how ever tell some
f e m a les that I love them only in order to give them a fa lse sens e of security in the relationship. Don t get me wron g I love
the feelin g of being with female but I love just can t exist in my reality.
May you have the best of luck in raising your child

Flake2m July 21st, 2003, 05:06 AM

Parenting a child is very complicated as requires;
1. Money, without a decent income your kid wont have the best education. However you shouldn't spoil you kid with whatever
he or wants.
2. Commitment. You must be prepared to stay at home and care for them when they are sick, be prepared to pick them up
from parties at 1am and stick up for them if they get in trouble.
3. Time; Some kids grow up faster then others. Dont expect your kid to be able to recite Macbeth at 2 years old.
I know this not from being a parent, but from being a kid myself. We were all 2 years old once. From my opinion, it is better
to give them a well rounded education and then when they are old enough to let them choose their specialty.
I had a family member trying to tell me that all Germans, Japanese and South Africans were horrible people when I was
young. Though being naturally inquistive, I wondered why this was so. After meeting people at school that were German and
South African who later became good mates with me and finding out more about the countries I realised that the family
member was just saying a load of bullshit.
NBK; you might raise your kid as a racist, but that doesn't mean he or she will grow up to be like you. He or She could well
infact grow to be a human rights activist :eek:. However you can raise your kid to have good manners and discipline and you
wont regret that.
As for your ideals of daughters only good for marriage alliances. Women can be more powerful then men if they know how to
use their sexuallity and good at being a leader. Apparently they are also genetically superiour (maybe thats why they dont
often visit sites like rogue science ).
nbk2000 July 21st, 2003, 06:45 PM

I'm sure I can't do any worse than 90% of the human race that's raising garbage that's mistakenly called "human".
:)
As I stated before, I already know that it's going to take a lot of money to properly train them as I want them to be trained.
Sure, I can teach them the book knowledge at very little expense, but what good does the knowledge do you if you can't
afford to practice them? Thus I have to get my finances straightened out first.
Once that's done, and I'm ready to deal with 'em, then I'm committed to the project. Obviously, raising a child, especially one
being groomed for power, is a life long project.
I'm not some dumb teen who couldn't keep it in his pants and thus got saddled with an unwanted child that he hates. I'm a
middle-aged man who's planning on raising a boy to become a Man amoung men.
That right there gives me the advantage since most people go into reproduction in a rather random fashion. They have the
kids with no real idea of what they're going to raise them to be, or it's something silly like a doctor/athelete/etc. :rolleyes: I'm
not going to raise him to "be" anything. That's up to him when he's old enough to make that kind of decision for himself.
BUT...I will be raising him to know how to manipulate and control others, to bend them to his will, and to use power to his
advantage. Power is universally applicable to any human endeavor and any time. To be able to control your surroundings and
those who inhabit it is what power is all about. :)
The reason your uncle failed to impress racism in you is because he just gave you a statement, without any lessons to
impress it into your mind, like he should have. BTW, he was probably railing against a nationality, not a race, am I correct?
Was he ranting against "Filthy Krauts" and "Sneaky Boers" and "Yellow Bastards"?
I'll let my kid mingle with muds at an early age. I'll also make sure these same muds are the ones who beat him, rip him off,
and otherwise abuse him. He'll come to find security and fellowship only with his fellow Aryans.
By the time he's in his early teens, he'll have become a racist on his own, without me ever having to say a word about the
subject. ;) "The lesson hard learned is the lesson best remembered".
I'm not same KKK clown that spouts off about "Nigger this, nigger that" while being married to my first cousin. You can't put
down others without first demonstrating your superiority. :p So he'll be taught the history of the Aryan race, our
accomplishments, and the corresponding lack of same by the muds.
If I build in the filter of racial superiority in his mind early enough, and reinforce it often enough, without any interference from
the SSIF, then he'll forever see the world through that filter, regardless of any other societal counter-conditioning he may be
subjected to later in life. "Equality, Diversity, and Tolerance" my ass!
It's also well known that children tend to rebel against their parents when they become teens. This is natural as the child
wishes to test the limits of his freedom and "discover" himself. I'll do nothing to try and stop this natural cycle. Rather, I'll
guide it towards a useful life lesson. The lessons he doesn't know he's been taught, are the lessons he can't rebel against. :D
If a parent is one thing, the child will try to be the other, so I might become the opposite of what I want my child to be.
Reverse psychology in action. Probably not, though, if I've done a good enough job in his conditioning while he was still a
young child.
Women can be more powerful then men if they know how to use their sexuallity...
That kind of power is fleeting. Sex appeal fades with time, resulting in either a woman who graps at everything she can while
she's still pretty, or an old hag who clings to the desperate illusion that she's still hot while she's actually not. My mother is the
latter. She was gorgeous when she was younger, looking like Claudia Schifer, and wrapped men around her finger.
But now she's a sad ol' hag with a beer gut because she's finally come into the realization that she's used up and has nothing
to show for it, never having planned for the inevitablem, thus having turned to alcohol to dull the pain of her futile life.
That's why daughters are universally regarded in every human culture and society as secondary to sons. A man grows into his
power, while a woman fades out from hers, unless she emulates a man.
I_am_the_Black_one July 22nd, 2003, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by nbk2000
Genetics aren't the only factor in intelligence in a child. I've several books about reproductive technologies that I've gathered
over the years that explain some of the technologies that have been studied towards the goal of human enhancment.
Sorry to go off topic. Id be seriously interested in reading anything on the subject. Could you upload or provide me with the
titles of these books?
More on topic wou ldn t it be easier to brainwash th e Child through technology?

Computer generated images (Vr?), sensual depravation and the like?
I read about a vat device the KGB used in "The cardinal of the Kremlin" (fiction). The subject was suspended in the vat
closed off to the entire world, they received no sensory input except occasional voice prompts, when they broke the subject
would Come out and would be able to be moulde d in what ever they wanted (Well that s the general gist of it). I know its
fiction but the idea still applys, humans will break and become mouldable when separated from the pack because the human
psyche needs input from others. The same applys if you take everything away from some one they will become mouldable.
When the subject comes out from the sensory depravation, you could instill your trigger switch in them.
Think about it with a combined combination of vr and depvration you could break, mold , instill knowledge in any individual
regardless of sex, age or political Alliance/Ideology.
Imagine brain washing a whole herd of "Sheeple" into real people, people who would have thier own ideas and the knowledge
to strike back agenst "Them".
stickfigure July 22nd, 2003, 09:51 AM

Not to be bragging but I have a Great Father and Mother for that matter. The lessons he taught me have served me well in life
and the knowledge he taught me, made me a more useful person than the 90%, that NBK refers too. My Dad was strict when
he needed to be and I've taken my share of licks. My parents never fought in front of me and I've never seen my Dad drunk
in my life, although he has a drink everyday. In my hometown there aren't any blacks or mexicans so I really have never had
any reason to hate anyone other than the White-Trash that caused all the problems there.
My Father taught me to hunt-kill, shoot, ride a horse, carpentry, mechanics, and instilled a basic ethic in me to earn my keep
and to be honest. I unlike NBK, I can't be racist by nature and also I must trust my life in the hands of other races. I must at
times, share a fox-hole or bunker with a black or mexican and have actually built great friendships with them. This is a
relationship built on trust that I must have in my line of work. Because when the shit hits the fan, you need the guy with you
who can watch your back and you trust. If I don't have that relationship, or they were to think I was a racist and couldn't be
trusted they are just as dangerous as the enemy.
All that said I do distinguish between a black person and a Nigger and the latter is equal to our "White Trash". Which I
consider to be a leach on society and have no respect for either. Racism can be taught although I wasn't raised that way and
in my life have met some realy great people that aren't white. Although I have met my share of dregs black, white and
mexican. I was almost pushed in front of bus by a black lady in LA and almost got stabbed in Venice Beach by a mexican.
But I also have a friend named Rob who is black wieghts about 260lbs, can bench about 300lbs. and is an expert marksman.
Now who would you rather have have take care of you in a firefight? Me, 185lbs. I can bench about 200lbs. and I can shoot
marksman but I'm not as good as Rob. I may be white but he is physically more capable of caring you to safety and he's a
better shot, also he's funny as hell and pretty entertaining when your bored.
That's my rant for the evening.
Imperial July 22nd, 2003, 10:44 AM

Well I must agree with nbk2000 on most of what he has said.
My ancestry is rather 'colourful' (well, more like crimson) since I am of a line of European nobles. I have been exposed to
racism and I know that Aryans are the superior race, that males are the superior sex and that the intelligent, who haven't
allowed the SSIF to condition them into thinking "tolerantly" and "equally" about those less fortunate (less intelligent, less
powerful and much more useless/disposable in my opinion) than them are advantaged in life.
Personally, my parents are both very racist indeed (as am I). I have a collection of mediaeval as well as Samurai weapons,
and I enjoy using them on animals every opportunity I get. I like the sight of blood and the feel of dealing Death, and am
thought of by the majority of sheeple at my school to be a sicko, vampire and/or sadistic bastard. I had a rather nasty
upbringing, for though I got all the luxuries I could want, I was treated very harshly for my mistakes and exposed to the
'inferiority groups' quite a bit. I was smacked across the face for being rude, rebellious or for not abusing power to the fullest
extent. And I thank my parents every bit for it now. I am sixteen, and attaining some level of independence. I also use what I
know about sheeple nature and weakness to get my way and/or amuse myself.
Don't mean to brag, but I am getting straight "A"s in school, and it is all because I simply know that I am superior to most of
the sheeple at my school. There are many people who I would be more than happy to dispose of because they irritate me or
are simply a tarnish on the human gene pool. I have been called a bigot many times (and yes I am a bigot) and I take it as
a compliment. I backhand those younger years (or grab by the throat and cause pain to) who decide to say anything against
me, and have built up a nice aura of fear when dealing with them. Thanks to my parents showing me how to deal with
sheeple, and the fact that I have been exposed to pain, death and fighting from an early age, I am realising the extent of
the hold I have on 90% of the people (I use the term loosely) in my school. The other 10% I consider to be my equals and I
don't do anything to. They are either good company, or simply useful.
As for teachers, I have my methods with them, carefully developed over several years, but I may go into that in another post.
knowledgehungry July 22nd, 2003, 10:59 AM

So we have an egotistical sadist on our hands, personally i think that inflicting pain on irrational creatures is a waste of time. I
like animals, however i merely enjoy their company and when one gets hit by a car, drinks my Nitric Acid etc i feel no loss. I
probably was raised to "soft" my dad is a doctor, so he helps people and such, lots o time people who in my mind should be
left to die. However I did grow up in one of the toughest areas of one of the countries larger cities, I don't live there any more
but I have been exposed ot much violence as a child. I think i turned out better than most people, but my parents were not
as firm with discipline as they should have been. Especially with my no good little shit brother.
Nihilist July 22nd, 2003, 06:35 PM

Imperial, you have to be careful in dealing with people that way. Although I agree most everyone is worthless and morose,
some of them aren't, even though on the surface they might seem that way.
As for racism, there is definitely one superior race, personally, I don't know which one that is(though we can probably rule out
blacks,and most of the middle east) Asians and jews however can be quite intelligent. I have many friends that are asian and/
or jewish and some of them are very smart, but then again some of them aren't. Blacks though, are definitely physically
superior to any other race there is absolutely no argument against that, however judging by their history they are clearly not as
intelligent, mostly because we bred them to be strong and dumb, so that they could pick more cotton with less bitching.:D
nbk2000 July 22nd, 2003, 09:10 PM

While going to Wally-Mart to buy some supplies, I had the misfortune to be stuck on a bus with two hyperactive little shits (M
and F) that would have been perfectly at home if they were in a cage at the zoo, throwing their own feces at the tourists taking
their pictures.
The brats were bouncing around the bus, making faces at each other, talking in some incoherent version of english (and
they're caucasian! [can't call them white]), and generally being a pain in the ass.
The female that was (presumably) their mother kept telling them to be quite, sit still, etc., along with the usual parental
threats of "no toys, I tell your dad, blah-blah-blah" and the brats continued on as if she wasn't there.
I thought my hell was over when I got off the bus, but it wasn't, because they were waiting at the same stop as I was at an
hour later. This time, they were even LOUDER and hyper. :rolleyes:
To top it all off, the boy took a sign with him on the bus that he stole from the display at Wally-Mart. His "mother" wasn't
going to do anything about it 'till I spoke up and said "Getting an early start on the path to prison, is he?". She told him to put
it back, and he told her no. I didn't comment any further on it since I just grabbed it out of his hands and threw it back over
the fence into the garden section. :p
I was quite tempted during all these times to just grab the little shits and pound their asses till they passed out from the pain,
but that'd only land me in the clink myself, for "child abuse", while the "concerned" parent would be the "victim" of some
"depraved" stranger who couldn't stand to see two children being neglected by a negligent parent who cares so little about
their children that they won't properly discipline them.
It's a shame that spankings by any adult who happens to observe a child misbehaving isn't permitted. Our society might be
better off for it. Then all the little shits would know that acting stupid would get them an ass pounding by any adult who saw it.
:)
This sorry little episode I observed emphasizes the need to back up words with actions. If you tell a child to be quite, and they
don't shut up, then you need to apply action to emphasize your words, otherwise they'll simply ignore you. A sharp smack to
the head will impress the little heathens much more than an endless stream of parental blathering. :D
My child/ren will NOT be growing up to be feral monkeys. If I'm harsh with words to discipline strangers here, just imagine how
I'd be to my own children in person. http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon18.gif
In the military, you can't pick who you have to work with, which is why it's what it is.
I notice that we haven't won a real war since we integrated the armed forces after WWII. And don't call any of the Gulf wars a
"real" war. Toppling third world regimes that have been war torn for a decade, or half-starved for as long, isn't a great feat of
strength.
And I'd rather have the white man I can trust, to the nigger I can't, beside me in the foxhole, even if the ape is a better shot.
Nihilist July 22nd, 2003, 09:35 PM

NBK: you might want to take a look at this http://maddox.xmission.com/beat.html it should help you in your frequent child
beatings :D
Imperial July 26th, 2003, 07:41 AM

LOL I love that page.
I was raised using the "four finger salute" but not the PVC 2x4 and no "Sucker Punch".
I think it is a shame that they don't let you spank your/other people's kids anymore. Think of the drop in vandalism/drug
use/<insert crime usually committed by stupid apish teenagers spawned by untermensch parents who couldn't give a shit
here>.
I think that the sort of vermin which has "children" like that should be fuelling the ovens, or at least be sterilised so that they
can't pollute the human gene pool.
nbk2000 March 25th, 2004, 03:32 AM

I found an interesting factoid:
Infants subjected to painful procedures may actually suffer less pain later in life because hyperestimulation damages their
(pain) nerve cells.
What the child ends up with is a pain system that is simply dysfunctional.
It's bad becasue these kids can get severe injuries and not (feel) them
Bad is a relative thing, if you're goal is to make your children (and not even neccessarily your own biological offspring)
immune to pain, thus unafraid of being hurt, and thus more likely to be fearless and agressive. :)
Electric shock matting in the crib? Stabbing with sterilzed needles? What would be extremely painful, but not leave any scars or
obvious injuries that might get the "authorities" called on you?
Alexires December 26th, 2006, 03:56 AM

An old thread that I feel has been neglected. There is still plenty of space here for innovation and thought.
As a child (I'm around 20 now) I was not allowed to watch commercial television (no simpsons, news, etc.) Because of this I
was an outcast at school, coupled with my intelligence (easily exceeding the untermensch that attended my many schools). I
was betrayed by my friends, and I never forgot.
Unfortunately, I lacked a father figure in my life, and was raised by my mother.
While she did the best job she could, it was still shit. Only through martial arts have I actually grown some balls and been
given the confidence to tell people who deserve it to get fucked.
I think that depriving the child of all influences that may be subversive simply by their corrupt nature (radio, most movies, alot
of music and most television) it encourages the child to think for itself later in life, but also has the added benefit of
segregating your child from the sheeple at school.
Its difficult to make friends when you read Lord Of The Rings in Year 3, and read Goethe's Faust in Yr 10.
Hand to hand combat should be taught early. My little brother (about 10) is a little whining bitch that can't defend himself,
stand up for himself at school because of the "no violence" influence my mother has imposed on him. The little fucking moron
stole $100 from my mum to give to some kid who threatened to beat him up.
When I have kid(s) and they fuck some guy up that tries that on them, I'll reprimand them for getting caught, but reward
them for having the balls atleast to take care of themselves.
A combination of nootropics and influence (nature and nurture *grin*) will be a definate, as well as inspiring interest. Interest
is a big thing I think.
For instance, if your child has no interest in learning to be Machiavellian, then there is a great risk that things will go wrong. As
Mega says on his front page, what scientist has been inspired by calculating endless thermal entropies? This is the same, just
on a broader level.
Lets just simply take that to the next step. Always let there be something deeper that your kid can seek.
Along with an inquisitive nature, this will be the greatest tool in molding your child in the ideal image.
festergrump December 26th, 2006, 10:55 AM

When I have kid(s) and they fuck some guy up that tries that on them, I'll reprimand them for getting caught, but reward
them for having the balls atleast to take care of themselves.
Rewarding them is a good idea. Another that works is fear, but I prefer the positive reinforcement technique. Maybe both of
them should go hand in hand like you suggest.
There is one friend of mine who I dread ever getting into a scuffle with physically. His father was a Detroit cop and a mean son
of a bitch, at that. His policy was "If you get in a fight, you had better come home the victor, or you'll get beat down once
more by me."... Even my friends sister is harder than a coffin nail because of this upbringing.
While I can take an asswhooping (and have before), after seeing what my friend has dished out before... I care not at all to
be on the receiving end of it. (he's about 5'1" and 165 lbs. I'm 5'11" and 215). :eek:
Alexires December 26th, 2006, 10:55 PM

While positive reinforcement does work, it needs to be tempered with pain.
If we are raising children for the real world, good work needs to be rewarded, but failure needs to be punished. That way, the
child has a 2 fold influence, the reward gained from good work, but also the fear of punishment. If there was only the
influence of reward then the child may give up, because to them failure IS an option.
On the other hand, if there is only the influence of pain, they will become resentful of a system that so obviously controls
them.
They must also do their utmost to succeed in what they set their mind to whether it is right or wrong, for those two are simply
arbitrary definitions.
I have found with my upbringing, that when I was a child, I wished I was like the other children. But I have grown to despise
what they base their life upon and seek a higher meaning to my own life.
I have come to the conclusion that one is only alive to enjoy that life. Rather hedonistic of me, but there is no universal right
or wrong, there is no Great Punisher of Wrong Doing, and when the sun goes out, none of what we do will matter (Credit:VNV
Nation).
My child will be given the tools that he/she will need to experience life to the full, with none of this bill paying/working for
money bullshit. He/she will be given the mind set that one's own consciousness is the highest authority that one should have
to answer to, and if one can truly justify it in one's own mind, then it is the true "right". If my child needs to cheat, steal, kill,
betray, etc to get what he/she desires, then I will teach it what it needs to know. If I can't teach it, then I will let someone who
can teach them (but remind them subtly that they owe it to me that they can learn any of this at all).
I have seen so many people that I like live under the oppression that is work.
Coming home after working 8 hour days drained and only capable of sitting in front of the television, numbing their mind with
bullshit. In the time that they have off (weekends) they worry about work, and struggle to do the "jobs" that "need" doing
around the home.
I myself have experienced the utter bullshit that most people engage in. One of my jobs was at a place 1 hour drive from me.
I'd get up at 5am to be at work by 7am. I'd get home from work at 4pm after finishing at 3pm and having only earned $80
that day. I'd have to be in bed by 8pm that night otherwise I was fucked up the next morning and they day would be
unbearable.
Fuck that. I worked for 8 hours, drove for 2, spent 1 hour getting ready for it and hated every moment of it. If I did that every
day for the rest of my life, I would spend half my life hating being alive.
And what for?
Nothing, at the end of it all. I would have to pay rent ($250 a week easily). That's more than half my pay in rent, then take
out the $50-70 a week for food, $20 for petrol and I work essentially 10 hour days so that I can have about $50 a week to
myself... What the fuck.
There are better ways, IMHO, you just need to have the balls to do it. And what better way to have the balls, than to grow
them at a tender ripe young age? *grin*.
Thats my rant for today.
Frunk December 27th, 2006, 03:53 PM

When I have children, I'd be tempted to revive the spartan way of raising children for physical conditionning as well as mental
conditionning. The greeks had master combined physical and mental education. Beating your children can be bad, it has a 1/2
chance of biting you in the ass when they take over the world. They could be eternally grateful for your education or they could
hold a grudge.
For physical conditionning, use martial arts instead. Just pick a good hardcore MA. Leave your child with a Muay Thai master
for a month. There's nothing quite as satisfactory as people breaking their bones while hitting you thanks to your
conditionning.
Alexires, I'm totally with you: Martial Arts are the prime way of teaching someone what they can and can't do. I'm 16, 5 ft 10
and 185 pounds of muscle, yet before I started MA, 6 years ago, I was a defenseless brat even thought I COULD have kicked
everyone around. Now I KNOW I can kick half my school's ass and I can fight back on the vocal side too.
Imperial, your supremacist philosophy will not work in today's world. I'll explain mine:
At school, most of the ''cool'' rebelious people are dumbasses. Being intelligent is a flaw. If you publicly admit you know what
an Ammonium ion is in science class at 16, you're a nerd, even though the teacher just explained what it is. Knowledge,
understanding and memory aren't kewl. If you show who you are, forget about having a GF, unless that GF isn't a sheep.
Unfortunately females don't resist society as well. The good looking non-sheeple girls can and will go hang out with the true
dumbasses. Wait for university and single out morally and intellectually strong women, with other assets in bonus.
I have the benefit of going at a private school, and while it's pussified due to all the sheeple parents on the commity, all
lawyers and doctors, being able to whine better than the majority, they still teach us to have a critical mind. So did my parents,
to whom I owe a lot. They didn't buy me pokemon cards when it was the rage for example, stopping me from totally becoming
a sheep.
Still, you have to carefully analyze people, and separate the real dumbasses from the intelligent people who are holding back
because they know that's how it works. I've refined my idiot-detecting techniques over the years, which is why my main gang
consists of about 5 people, but my extended circle spans the whole school. We can lower ourselves to sheeple level because,
honestly, sometimes it's fun to just go with the flow and do stupid stuff. It's important that everybody in a gang plays a part.
I'm the muscle and the computer (and soon to be chemistry :p ) expert. One of my friends is slightly less science-smart but
has incredible social and sport skills. Another just has really great connections, while another does a little bit of everything but
obviously holds back. He's kind of an enigma for me... However, I've seen one of my friends get kicked out of school and
become a real dumbass within six months at a public school. I still hang out with him, since he still has the flame of
intelligence and he might have a future in organized crime. :D
We all know that when high school is over, the ''nerds'' will become okay members of society, most of them being intelligent
non-sheeple who just don't particularly care for power, the ''cools'' will become wrecks, but the intelligent elite that was playing
dumb will prevail.
Damn, I hate the fake non-comformists who conform to non-comformist fashion and music. I call my own philosophy
''Freestyle''. Don't dress in a particular way or listen to particular music, do what you want, be friends with who you want, be
freestyle.
jellywerker December 27th, 2006, 05:11 PM

Amen.
As to your rant on work, I have the following to say:
Everyone always tells me that everybody needs a "starter job" and other such bs. I say screw it. I don't want to work a starter
job, and it's not that I feel I am above the work and such, it's just not what I am going to do with my time and energy. I'm
going to do something I love doing, and I'm going to make good money off it. Anyone who says it doesn't work that way can
eff off. If they say that, they've already failed.
I have a lot of interests, any one of which I wouldn't mind doing 8 hours a day so my plan in life is to do something I like for
someone who will pay me for it, and not work when I don't need money. People worried about making an est egg etc... for
retirement don't know how to invest and manipulate people. And hey, it's not like you need to be young to rob a bank if I get
into a tight spot.
Imagine brain washing a whole herd of "Sheeple" into real people, people who would have thier own ideas and the knowledge
to strike back agenst "Them".
Doesn't sheepledom arrive from brainwashing in the first place?
You can't force critical thinking into people, but you can convince some sheeple into doing your evil deeds for you :p . After all,
the government does it so why shouldn't you?
Alexires December 27th, 2006, 09:11 PM

Sadly that is the way it is.
It is so much easier to use the system to your advantage, than it is to overturn the whole system.
Jellywerker, I definitely see what your saying. All that bullshit about how you need to "start at the bottom" and "work your way
up" is total crap. What about all those people that are born into the top, simply because of fate? What about all those people
who know someone that knows someone that gets the top job?
The sheeple are brainwashed into "needing to start at the bottom" and there is nothing sadder in my opinion, than someone
that is COMPELLED to do a hard days work to be satisfied. People that feel they need to put in the 10 whole hours and "help
the company" along just that little bit extra, when some fat cunt is sitting in his chair in the CEO's office, smoking some
imported cigars and watching his profit increase.
My children will be educated in these things, in the way of the world.
Santa and the easter bunny/toothfairy will have no place in my child's world.
I shall be the bringer of joy, I shall be the one that smites, I shall be the one with the say over life and death, not some fat
dick in a red suit (Credit: Coco ColaTM) or some idiot with a flaming finger.
*Power trips*
Now that I'm over that megalomania, what of the woman? My current partner wouldn't agree with these things, and would pull
out the old "Children need magic in their lives" bullshit, so what shall we do about that?
How would one "procure" a child, yet keep it away from the unwholesome influence of its soppy mother? I don't think that
there are many women out there who see things the way we do, and if they are, they are dangerous.
Its a catch 22 really... One needs an intelligent breeding partner so as to increase the chances of the child's intelligence, but
on the other hand, an intelligent partner is liability.
One might take in an orphan, but the problem now is government watch dogs.
A better idea would be to liberate a child from some regular sheeple, sparing it a life of pain and anguish as a lamb, but then,
is the risk worth it?
Hopefully, these questions wont need to be answered (for myself anyway) for a while, but its always good to have a plan in the
back of your mind in case, one day, you need it.
NBK, what are your views on nature vs nurture? You mentioned in a previous post about increasing Choline levels in the
mother, in an attempt to stop the "normal" brain atrophy that occurs due to decreased blood flow. Maybe a few experiments
on pregnant dogs/mice would be called for?

Testing on animals would be of limited use, as animals are not humans.
Don't bother with adoption, as you'd have to be very much a part of the sheeple system for the government to give you a
healthy white baby boy, everything else being dregs, and you don't want to waste time investing in dregs.
Trying to find a willing partner who'd raise the child as you would want it raised is the hardest part.
Since you've already decided to ignore all the standards and laws of sheeple society, you are free to ignore the societal
restraints that prohibit you from taking any breeder you want. :)
And since you'll do life for taking one, you might as well snatch several, to increase the probabilty of a healthy boy, at which
time you dispose of the breeders.
I'd suggest snatching up girls from the Jehovah Witnesses's, as they're (more) likely to be virgins and unpolluted by drugs or
diseases than the normal population.
Getting the paperwork to make him a legitimate citizen shouldn't be very hard, as the system isn't designed to prevent infants
from getting new identities to integrate into sheeple society, but adults seeking to escape it.
Cobalt.45 December 28th, 2006, 09:08 AM

This is a bit off topic, but it would seem that one of the best gifts you could ever give a child of yours would be anonymity.
No SS number, home schooling, etc. Until they were old enough to decide if they wanted to integrate or not.
Frunk December 28th, 2006, 04:19 PM

This is a bit off topic, but it would seem that one of the best gifts you could ever give a child of yours would be anonymity.
No SS number, home schooling, etc. Until they were old enough to decide if they wanted to integrate or not.
On the contrary, start the deception early and try register him twice and have two different birth certificates. Then he can have
two legit names and identities and he can switch between the two at will if he's got the cops on his tail, or he can sell one of
his identities on the black market if he ever needs some cash.
Does anyone know how much an american SS number & card is worth?

Anonymity is the ONE thing the government is most set against!
Try to raise a child in current western society without some sort of government interference or investigation.
Explain the childs orgins, why it's not in a State Sheeple Indoctrination Facility (public school), why it's not RFID chipped/
fingerprinted/DNA'd/Biometrically imprinted/etc., not on your tax records (or why you aren't paying taxes!), doesn't have an ID
number, been injected with government mandated vaccines to retard his intellect, not drinking the fluoridated water, on and on
and on....
Better than having the child being nameless would be to set him up so that, when he's an adult, he'll have numerous
'histories' that extend back to his birth, impeccablely matching all the markers of a good sheeple, so he'll be an undetectable
wolf amoungst the herd. :D
He can choose which one to live in, and keep up the others as 'spares', for doing any shady dealings, or as emergency
escapes in case of government prosecution.
nbk2000 January 12th, 2007, 02:03 AM

From http://guns.connect.fi/gow/ideas.html
How to teach True Nature of the Government
I think, it is very important that we teach our children about the True Nature of Government. Now, at last, there is a way to give
your children a basic civics course right in your own home! In my own experience as a father, I have discovered several simple
expedients that can illustrate to a child's mind the principles on which the Modern State deals with it's citizens. You may find
them helpful too.
For example, I used to play the simple card game WAR with my son. After a while, when he thoroughly understood that the
higher ranking cards beats the lower ranking ones, I created a new game called GOVERNMENT. In this game, I was a
Government, and I won every trick, regardless of who had the better card. My boy soon lost interest in my new game, but I
like to think, it taught him a valuable lesson for his later life.
When your child is a little older, you can teach him about our Tax System in a way that is easy to grasp and will allow him to
understand the benefits. Offer him, say, $10 to mow the lawn. When he has mowed it and asks to be paid, withhold $5 and
explain that this is an Income Tax. Give $1 of this to his younger brother, who has done nothing to deserve it, and tell him
that this is "fair" because the younger brother "needs money too". Also, explain that you need the other $4 yourself to cover
the administrative costs of dividing the money and for various other things you need. (In Finland is the deduction of Income
Tax from a random income 60% $5 tax deduction from income $10 is, however, easy to comprehend. Editor's note).
Make him place his $5 in a savings account over which you have authority. Explain that if he is ever naughty, you will remove
the money from the account without asking him. Also explain how you will be taking most of the interest he earns on that
money, without his permission. Mention that if he tries to hide the money, this, in itself, will be evidence of wrongdoing and will
result in you automatically taking the money from him.
Conduct random searches of his room in the small hours of the morning. Burst in unannounced. Go through all of his drawers
and pockets. If he questions this, tell him you are acting on a tip from a mate of his who casually mentioned that you had
both earned a bit of spare cash last week. If you find it, confiscate all of that money and also take his stereo and television.
Tell him you are selling these and keeping the money to compensate you for having to make the raid. Also lock him in his
room for a month as a further punishment.
When he cries at the injustice of this, tell him he is being "selfish" and "greedy" and only interested in looking after his own
happiness. Explain that he should learn to sacrifice his own happiness for other people and that since he cannot be relied
upon or trusted to do this voluntarily, you will use force to ensure he complies. Later in his life he will thank you..!
Make as many rules as possible. Leave the reasons for them obscured. Enforce them arbitrarily. Accuse your child of breaking
rules you have never told him about and carefully explain that ignorance of your rules is not an excuse for breaking them.
Keep him anxious that he may be violating commands you haven't yet issued. Instill in him the feeling that rules are utterly
irrational. This will prepare him for living under a (Social-) Democratic Government. (A.k.a. "The Human-faced Socialism".
Editor's note).
He is too young to understand the benefits of democracy, so explain this wonderful and legitimate system as follows: You,
your wife and his brother get together and vote that your son should have all privileges removed, be caned, and confined to
his room for a week. If he protests that you are violating his rights, patiently explain his error and tell him that the majority
have voted for this punishment and nothing matters except the will of the majority. When your child has matured sufficiently
to understand how the judicial system works, set a bedtime for him of, say, 10 p.m. and then send him to bed at 9 p.m.
When he tearfully accuses you of breaking the rules, explain that you made the rules as a Government and you can interpret
them in any way that seems appropriate to you, according to changing conditions.
Promise often to take him to the movies or the zoo, and then, at the appointed hour, recline in an easy chair with a
newspaper and tell him you have changed your plans. When he screams: "But you promised!", explain to him that it was a
campaign promise and hence meaningless. Every now and then, without warning, slap your child. Then explain that this is self-
defence. Tell him that you must be vigilant at all times to stop any potential enemy before he'll grow big enough to hurt you.
This, too, your child will appreciate: Not right at that moment, maybe, but later in his life.
If he finds this hard to accept, you can further illustrate the point as follows. Take him on a trip across town with you, to a
strange neighbourhood. Walk into any random house you choose and start sorting out their domestic problems, using violence
if that is what is required. Make sure you use overwhelming force to crush the family into submission - this avoids a protracted
visit and becoming involved for long periods of time. Explain to your son that only a coward stands idly by whilst injustice is
happening across town. Tell him we are all brothers and problems left to fester will eventually spill over into your
neighbourhood. Use some of the $5 you took from your son as a bus fare - and to purchase a baseball bat.
Drink a bottle of whisky and then lecture him on the evils of smoking grass or crack. If he points out your hypocrisy, remind
him that the majority of people drink and that, as already explained, the needs of the majority are the only moral
standard.Break up any meeting between him and more than three of his mates as being an "unlawful gathering". If he
strokes the cat without the cat giving it's express written permission, slap him hard for feline harassment. Mark one
designated spot in the yard where he can leave his bike. If he leaves it anywhere else, padlock it and demand $50 to release
it. If he offends more than three times, confiscate the bike, sell it, and keep the money.
Install a CCTV (Closed Circuit Television or Control Camera TV system. Editorial explanation) in your son's bedroom and also
record all his telephone conversations. If he protests, accuse him of "having something to hide". Explain that only criminals
seek privacy and that good, dutiful children relinquish their privacy in exchange for the advantages which protective
parenthood offers. Remind him of the boy across town who was caught smoking grass in his bedroom by just such a CCTV
system, and explain that this precedent justifies installing the CCTV in all teenagers' bedrooms. Lie to your child constantly.
Teach him that words means nothing - or rather that the meanings of words are continually "evolving", and may be tomorrow
the opposite of what they are today.
Have a word with his teachers at school and ask them to share any merit marks, your son achieves, with any ethnic minority
students who did not get any merit marks. If he questions this policy, explain that long ago we abused the ancestors of these
people, and so it is only fair that he shares the merits around to compensate their descendants. This is also probably a good
time to tell him that his energy, talent and enthusiasm will not secure him a job if the quota of such "abused people" has not
yet been filled. Tell him that his talent stands for nothing - it is fairness and sharing which are important. Remind him that his
primary duty is to share the happiness and welfare to people he does not know, and will never meet.
Ban any cutlery from your home and make your son eat with his fingers. If he asks why, remind him of the youth who stabbed
a cat to death last week with a fork. Explain that if just one cat is saved by the banning of cutlery, then this prohibition will be
justified. If he protests, question him closely about why he is intending to kill innocent cats, or accuse him of being a cat
hater.
Issue him with a pass card which he must show before he can enter the house. Stand guard at the front door. When he comes
home, politely but firmly take him into the spare room and question him about his movements. Ask him how much cash he
has on his person. If in excess of $50, confiscate the lot as it exceeds the house rule for maximum cash allowed. Then search
his rucksack and pockets. To keep him guessing, do the occasional strip search. If he protests, detain him for longer and
make the more thorough, so-called invasive search with a surgical rubber glove in your hand. Lubrication of the forefinger is
preferable but not essential. If he gets really angry at this, hold him in a locked room until he misses his next outing or party.
Sounds these methods harsh? I am being cruel only to be kind. I think it is important for children to understand the Nature of
the Society in which we live today and especially tomorrow.
G.G. (from Social-Democratic Federal People's Republic of Australia).
This is such an excellent way of teaching the truely arbitrary nature of governemnt that it should be implemented by anyone
who values their childrens future.
Make it a week long training event every year, unannounced of course, like all government laws are.

Holy shit NBK, that is fucking awesome!
While doing it too often would turn the child against you, once a year at random, with a day of it every month or two just to
remind him what it's all about would get the point across nicely.
Personally, I would wait until the child was old enough to understand the injustice of it all before I did it, otherwise if you did it
too early, the child may be influenced and it may skew his view of the government (giving it a kind of parent figure in his
mind).
Another thing to do might be to charge him $5 a week or fortnight as "Property tax" on his room, explaining that all the
money goes towards paying you for the time you need to take to keep everything looking nice and tidy. This can extend to his
bike/sneakers as well. *grin* Probably a good idea to let him have some of his money back as "Tax return" but only if he
writes a 10,000 word essay on why he deserves YOUR money back.
Challenge him to try and evade the system, but warn him that the consequences will be harsh if he is caught. It will give him
an idea about how crafty he will need to be, as well as showing him how hard/easy it can be.
Randomly, when his friends come over, offer them a sum of money to tell you about any wrong doing that he has done, and
give them the money for this. Then punish him in accordance with what his "friend" has said.
This will teach him to pick his friends with care.
The possibilities are endless *chuckle*.
NBK, while I see where you are coming from about the Jehovah Witnesses' it may be that the woman has a higher than
thought chance of being sullied.
I know from personal experience how easy it is to break Mormons *evil grin*. They tend to go for the bad boys for some
reason *chuckle*.
Cobalt.45 January 12th, 2007, 03:27 PM

Interesting lessons, to be sure.
Why not instill in your spawn the respect and mastery of the skills required to survive with out benefit of "civilization", instead
of (or in concert with) all the tortuous "lessons"?
Society as it stands now, taken to its logical conclusion, will result in a "dooms day" scenario- take your pick from nuclear, bio,
natural disaster, gunmen running amok, what ever.
When "It" happens, the likeliest way to survival and reproduction will be to have honed the skills necessary to make a go of it
outdoors.
Social centers will be devastated and all but inhabitable, as will almost all recognisable totems of society.
By taking to the most inhospitable, roughest, highest, coldest/hottest places one can find- and be capable of surviving the
ordeal- a breeding pair could rebuild.
Might also help to teach them to recognise healthy breeding stock and how to "take" same with out too much damage to
either one of them.

Cobalt .45 - I definitely see what you are saying.
Indeed, I hope that that day will happen in my life time (as in the next 10-20 years or so).
But, it isn't likely to happen. It may take decades or centuries for that to happen. Hence, you need to equip your offspring with
the necessary tools to survive in both the social world and the wilderness. Not doing so would be like teaching him to survive
the desert, but not the freezing cold.
I most definitely wont just have lessons for a week or 2 a year. The lessons will be constant.
Either home schooling or pub(l)ic schooling will occur, even if it is just teaching how to learn to your child. If its public schooling,
extra lessons will happen after school and most of them will be fun (you learn best that way).
Cobalt.45 January 18th, 2007, 12:58 PM

It may take decades or centuries for that to happen. Hence, you need to equip your offspring with the necessary tools to
survive in both the social world and the wilderness. Not doing so would be like teaching him to survive the desert, but not the
freezing cold.
Here in lies the diligence of all who is responsible for the formative upbringing of the future biological offspring.
Oz might not be the "Garden State of Earth", but I god damn sure do support those who have made a go of it there. Some of
the brightest and surely the toughest SOB's have come by way of there, and I for one, back them.
But what the hell happened to the legal system while everybody else was busy making a go of it? It'll take one hell of an
overthrow just to get them back level to the boards.
Damn shame, that.
nbk2000 April 19th, 2007, 03:01 PM

I've been thinking about how I would go about ensuring that my offspring (if I ever have any) would be informed about me,
even if they were orphaned at an age too young to remember me.
Trusting anyone else to bother with the task is foolishness, especially since you don't know what they'll say about you.
And if they are orphans, the State sure in the fuck isn't going to be bothered with the task.
So I had the idea of a chip, embedded in the child at birth, such that it would be likely be discovered at some point in its life,
during some medical examination like an X-ray or CAT scan.
It needs to have a high informational density, yet be readable by the naked eye (future-proof), and be biologically inert for
the possible decades of storage in the tissues of the childs body.
An iridium plate (http://www.norsam.com/rosetta.html), a gemstone (http://www.norsam.com/diamond.html), or gold object

(http://www.norsam.com/jewlery.html), would be encapsulated in an inert glass capsule (like an RFID capsule), and embedded
into the childs body below the ribcage, so an amputation wouldn't remove the message.
I'd go with metal objects, since they'd be far easier to see on an X-ray than a glasss/gemstone capsule.
The obviously man-made object would, upon discovery, hopefully be removed and examined. It would contain a naked-eye-
visible mark that would indicate there's text in microscopic form upon it.
Whether it's when the child is 20 with a broken rib, or 70 with cancer, the point is that my child WILL get the message at some
time in its life.
Obviously a biography of me and (possibly) the mother, a picture of me, some choice rants by me ;), and the location of my
freezer :D, would be in there.
What else to add?
Jome skanish April 19th, 2007, 05:11 PM

Well, if you really dont think a female with suitable views to give the child the right form of upbrining can be found, then
simply inpregnate a poor woman in a third world country for a round sum of money....
Somewhat like how the servus breeders are used by the draka in the Domination novels :D
If she decides to keep it for herself? Well, go to the next one, off course you didn't pay before delivery, and she does not
know your real name. If you're a racialist that'll only mean you'd have to look a little further. But relatively poor white women
could be found everywhere from mexico to russia. In the future perhaps one could steal a strand of hair from a woman of
one's liking and a doctor in thailand could make an embryo to be implanted somewhere.
Otherwise I imagine the female part of the childs heritage might tend to be the weak part.
Now, I'd pass on the following teachings to my offspring:
1. He who is weak will suffer. Such is nature. Squeamishness is a extremely common fallacy when the little ones starts testing
out their parents. If they're not even risking serious injury, ignore their whining and eventually they'll stop.
Also, making your child easy to handle, no matter if it's done by force or by moralising or even by bullshit always makes them
easier to handle for everyone else too. The key is the authoritative approach. Praise and punish, and always make sure the
child intellectually grasped why you did what you did.
2. No magic like santa, the tooth fairy or anyting like that. Always be frank and respect their growing intellect by never
underestimating it. Infact, a challenge, even if the child fails, are so much better.
And, most important, do not fool your children into believeing in a universal good versus bad, instead let them discover early
on how the world really works. Only the ones getting caught gets punished. Most of the time, of course, you do get caught.
Always speak and act around your children as if they were little persons, not in that stereotypical "around a child" way with lies,
bullshit and especially that "baby language".
3. Physical training is a must. From the very beginning. No one will bully your child for being weird (like in "intelligent") if it
means they'll have to drink with a straw for a couple of weeks.
I think you're wrong in the though of inducing conflicts NBK, there will always be conflict and the child will always learn that
valuable lesson of trust (i.e that it is bs) one way or the other, as long as the child isn't exactly like everyone else, or a
goodlooking girl. Only usually preserve full naivity, even among sheeple. So those factors perhaps would mean more work all
from the beginning.

A welfare state can break any conditioning with its own. However, they are unlikely to be looking for it.
The risk I see with the capsule is that it is very unlikely to be looked at closely, and even if it is, it will be a tech that does the
looking, not your kin. Likely it will either disappear as "incinerated" if gold, or be incinerated and buried. Also, information
density is going to be hard to pull off. Microdot films and the like are the benchmark for this stuff, and you can get pretty
small, but if you go below the wavelengths of visible light you won't be able to view it. This means that below about 250x
magnification you are going to have trouble without a specialist microscope, and you can't go below a dozen pages on a single
microdot. A stack of them might work, but then it looks like a black lump, and anyone cutting it open is unlikely to see the
internal structure clearly, and even if they do, the knife will have destroyed a lot of data.
I found http://autodidactics.archivale.com/Microdot/microdot.htm about microdots made at home. Quite interesting.
A tiny microdot could also be hidden in something that wasn't likely to ever go anywhere, like a reference section library book
that isn't going to be replaced or lost any time soon. Some books are very old and rarely used for anything, and so sit in a
shelf for a long time, reducing the already tiny risk of discovery to near zero, and the odds of theft (by accident) or destruction
to very small indeed - even if the city patent library or reference library was moved, the books would follow.
Another one would be a church or the like. A building thousands of years old. Stick it to something like a relic. Oh, the irony!
Of course, digital storage is far better for information density. The microSD format is tiny, just 0.3mm thick and holds up to
2Gb. But sadly not future proof at all (but see below). Even CDs and DVDs are dodgy, as they frequently corrupt, and in
another 20 years, I doubt many people will have the hardware needed. USB is likely to still be around, as it is now fairly
pervasive, and it is host device independant.
Geocaching might be your best bet. A very small cache could be located someplace, GPS co-ords taken, and written to the
microdot. Obviously, this wouldn't be the only set, there would be multiple sets hidden away, with multiple co-ords stored. I'd
hide a gun and some money or current collectables, too, as in the future they might well be useful! Add a USB card reader.
--
Sorry, this is pretty disjointed, but it might give some ideas for others to chip in. I've never come up with a perfect answer.
nbk2000 May 2nd, 2007, 02:30 AM

RFID chips and implanters:
http://www.jecta.co.uk/index.shtml
'Course, I'm only interested in the implanter and empty capsules.
GNAB June 15th, 2007, 11:54 PM

All that information isn't really necessary. Merely enough for a map. A map to your autobiography, written in long hand if you
wish.
As to your original post. Last year (2006) the History Channel ran a show on "The Spartans". I think you would enjoy it.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > n e e d h e l p m elting glass
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View Full Version : need help melting glass
zeocrash July 9th, 200 3, 06:59 AM

ok i have a set of soada glass test tubes, i have recently been trying to turn them into capsules fu ll of pottassium
permanganate. i do this by
filling the tube 1/4 full of pottassium perm a n g a n a t e
heating the tube half way up until it melts
pulling the 2 ends apart, so the tube will narrow out and seal
when the tub e starts to cool, the glass cracks and i dont know how to avoid this problem
a n y a d v c e o n g l a s s m elting would be welcome
a_bab July 9th, 200 3, 09:53 AM

Your glass could be crappy.
I m a d e s m a l l a m p o u l e s u s i n g glass tu bes and it works great. Try to use the kind of glass used in labware (pipettes, etc). Of
course, use broken item s ;)
The problem when se aling chems inside of a glass tube is to keep the chemical as cold as possible during the sealing process;
another prob lem is that the air from the freshly sealed tube tends to expand due to the d ilatation, possibly breakin g the
glass.
knowledgehungry July 9th, 200 3, 09:54 AM

T h e p r o b l e m i s u n e v e n c o o l i n g , I a m not sure h ow to fix it. Maybe by putting it in som e ne ar boiling hot water you could slowly
and evenly cool it, bu t other than that im really not sure.
Arthis July 9th, 200 3, 10:04 AM

Cooling glass into boiling water m ay not change much. The glass is at several hundred C, the cha nge from 300 K to 373 K is
only 25 %, not much.
About the cooling it self, a water bath is way too effective: a fast temperature cha n g e m a y c a u s e s o m e fractures I think.
The fact is that the end, larger, will cool down slower than the rest. Why not watering the e nd only ?
Tuatara July 9th, 200 3, 07:17 PM

You need to do two things.
1/ heat an area considerably larger than the bit you are m elting - to about 600C. Do this after you m ake your seal. This will
help t o a n n e a l t h e s t r e s s e d a r e a s n e x t t o t h e s e a l .
2/ drop the whole thing im mediately into a bucket of ve rm icullite so that it cools very slowly over an hour or so.
Give n that you are trying to seal in KMnO 4, you m ay want to move your seal further up the tube. Y o u c o u l d a l s o m a k e y o u r
seal by squeezing the tube shut with two graphite rods (graphite wont stick to hot glass)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Sinkdrain Suppressor
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nokianinja780 July 14th, 20 03, 07:1 4 PM

T h i s d o c u m e n t h a s b e e n a d d e d t o T h e L i b r a r y , b u t I ' m posting it here for those who don't yet have access to the forum FTP.
http://www.angelfire.com/alt/amendm ent/Sinkdrain_Suppressor.pdf
If you'd like to mirror this, private m e s s a g e m e and I'll edit this post to include the mirror links.
T h e d o c u m ent was originally posted to the Xinventions.com forum , along with diagrams of a brass pipe zip-gun posted by an
( * a h e m ! * ) A n o n y m ous author:
http://66.127.232.42/discus/messages/15/233.html?1050053324

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > C D Unit - Schem atic, pics and
hints
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View Full Version : CD Unit - Schematic, pics and hints
HVD July 14th, 20 03, 09:5 6 PM

I have just com pleted a capacitor discharge unit that is pretty professional and technically sound. I'm actua lly quite proud of it
:-)
The big difference between this and other salvaged pho toflash CD units is that this has a LED that reads the TRUE voltage
from the cap bank to tell you when it's reached 330 volts, a power led as well, ble eder resistors to discharge the cap bank after
a b o u t 1 5 m i n s ( s a f e r ) , a n d i h a v e o p t i m ised all the com ponent values so that it charges to 330 vo lts in about 7 seconds from
2 AA cells. It puts out about 12 Joules and is m ore than capable of vaporising steel wool at the end of 100m twin core wire a n d
ignitiing large value carbon resistors. (I use 330 ohm personally). Also the discha rge switch is (just about) rated correctly for
the caps is i fire it though at least a 20 ohm load (ie 10 0m of twin core wire).
I have includ ed a pic. W hat i want to ask is if anyone would be interested in a full pdf detailing all the calcu lations , theory,
step s and ancilary info I've gathered in my quest for a nice CD unit like this and of course lots of pics :-) If there are a few
people interested the n i'll go ahead and do it. There is already a particularly useful article out there by Den nis Griesser
detailing how he mod ified a photoflash unit, but it's not as detailed as i would have liked, and m y b o x h a s s o m e n i c e e x t r a s
that he doesn't go into :-) It's a nice starting point though and Id like to point anyone interested in m aking a CD unit to that
as well.
Cheers
HVD
CD Unit (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/bluechip/E&W/CD unit pic.jpg)
Tuatara July 14th, 20 03, 11:2 4 PM

I'd be keen to see the schematic, at least. A pic of a grey box with buttons and LEDs on it is not of m uch use on its own. Do
show your calcs, those of us with knowledge can then either shoot you down or give you th e big thumbs up - either way you'll
come out better off :D
Jumala July 15th, 20 03, 06:5 4 AM

Here is also m y last plan. It uses only standart parts no need to m ake a own transformer.
I c h o o s e a s m all transform er so the th ing is insensible to shortcuts but it takes longer to charge the caps. A bigger tranformer
will also work .
http://www.technikertreff2.host.sk/phpBB2/files/transform er_12v_-_250v_908.jpg
Arthis July 15th, 20 03, 08:2 3 AM

I would be in terested in a few more de tails. In fact if I've not m ade electronics studies, and if I can understand som e basics,
t h e s c h e m e y o u g a v e isn't that talking, for m e .
Could you give us a few expla inations about that ?
A pdf would be great but it takes som e tim e. You should decide of a plan and write it step by step, a part every for exam ple .
HVD July 15th, 20 03, 10:1 4 AM

This looks ... well ... overkill, but m aybe that's just because I can't follow all of the schematic :-) My design isn't particularly
sophisticated, but it gets the job done. I see you've used full wa ve rectification , that's som ething i would have liked but could
never get caps charging with it, so i had to just use half wave :-/
However i see you're cap is only rated at 200 uF @ 250 volts. Is this goin g t o b e h i g h e n o u g h ?
Anyway here is the CD unit page (http://m yweb.tiscali.co.uk/bluechip/E&W) I've just made , detailing m y e x p l o i t s a n d a s k i n g
for some help on the calculations.
Sorry i can't seem to include pics in m y actual post. I've used the im g tags but to no avail. Any hin ts?
Cheers
HVD
Jumala July 15th, 20 03, 06:4 6 PM

The plan seems to have a lot of parts but it works simple. The 4093 (4 x NAND) works as oscillator and voltage regulator. The
4093 drives the two d arlington transistor pairs so that the current changes the direction ap prox. 100 tim e s a s e c o n d t h r o u g h
the prim ary transform er coils.
This produces at the secondary side a real AC wich can be rectified. If the cap is charged the HV opens over the 10 MO hm th e
BC546 Transistor and the oscillator sto ps until the voltage is too low again.
In a self oscillating transform er the current is only pulsed and has always the sam e direction.
(no real AC) So the fullwave rectifier dont work. But this is not im portant.
A se lf oscillating sytem is very good because it gives high voltag e with a handfull parts but the transformer is hard to get. (o nly
from p h o t o f l a s h u n i t s a n d I h a v e n o n e )
I didnt want to calculate and wound up a ferrite transfo rm er with I dont know how m uch turns.
So I m ust use the second choise, the standart transformer.
The cap isnt large but it work s perfect. If nessesary I can add a second or a third cap.
HVD July 15th, 20 03, 07:0 6 PM
I see how your circuit works now, and thanks for clearing up the A.C. thing with the self oscillating transform er. I was quite
confused over why the full wave rectification wouldn't work :-).
As to photoflash transform ers, if you want one or five, then just ask for some old disposable came ras from a cam era shop. I'd
stay away from the big chain ones and just go to a local one, they're like ly to be m uch m ore friendly. I've asked a few tim e s
now for som e at my local shop, and each tim e they've just given m e all they had (usually 5 or 6). I just told them it was for a
m odel rocket launche r (well, it's almost true :-)
Thanks
HVD

Are you sure you've drawn tha t schem atic correctly? Som e t h i n g s d o n ' t m a k e s e n s e .
1/ Your 'Fire' led and associated circuit is connected in the wrong polarity.
2/ All your cap charging current is going either through the base of the transistor or through R1.
3/ Your LED current calc is out by a factor of 10 - you are putting 65m A through those LEDs, if that is actually a 20 o hm resistor
Don't be surprised at the result of the power calc. e.g Nitrogen lasers produce UV pulses of a few m J, but th e y a r e n a n o s e c o n d s
in le ngth so the powe r of the pulse is on the order of Megawatts.
That really is an odd setup for a self oscillatiing converter. For m ore info on how this is supposed to work search for 'self-
oscillating flyback converter', or 'saturating core inverter'.
A good starting point (http://mem bers.m i s t y . c o m / d o n / s a m f l a s h . h t m l )
Jumala's circuit would be classed as a push-pull forward converter
HVD July 16th, 20 03, 09:0 4 AM

Originally posted by Tuatara
Are you sure you've drawn tha t schem atic correctly? Som e t h i n g s d o n ' t m a k e s e n s e .
1/ Your 'Fire' led and associated circuit is connected in the wrong polarity.
2/ All your cap charging current is going either through the base of the transistor or through R1.
3/ Your LED current calc is out by a factor of 10 - you are putting 65m A through those LEDs, if that is actually a 20 o hm resistor
I a p p o l o g i s e , l o o k i n g a t t h e s c h e m atic it's obviously worng. It was late when i was doin it :-/ I've changed it now to the TRU E
circu it, and that clears up your problem s bar nu mber 3, which is partly correct. The original calculation was o ut by a decim al
p l a c e ( 6 5 n o t 6 . 5 m A ) b u t o n r e - e x a m i n i n g t h e circuit i see that in fact I only have 20 m A through the leds (65 would frazzle
them). This is because only 0.34 volts is dropped across the resistors. with a 2.5 volt supply, this puts 2.16 volts across the
LEDS.
Is this still a strange circuit :-) now what i've m odified the diagra m ? I ' v e s e e n t h a t p a g e b e f o r e a n d t h o u g h t a b o u t u s i n g a
flyback transformer to generate the high voltage, but given the size of them and the fact i had the photoflash units lying
around, i decided to use the photo flash's.
Also i tried to use what i had lying around, hence the 20 ohm r e s i s i t o r s o n t h e l e d s a s o p p o s e d t o 5 0 o h m s or som ething (the
current is a bit high right now). In fact even the 2 0 o h m r e s i s t o r s a r e m a d e u p f r o m 2 * 1 0 o h m s o n e s e a c h .
Anyway, thanks for th e info.
Cheers
HVD

Ah,yes. Much better. I only provided the link to that page as it h a s s o m e information on how this type of converter in normally
arranged. U sing a TV flyback tranny would be silly if you've already got the photoflash parts :D
matjaz D e c e m ber 22nd, 2003, 08:28 AM

Here's my variant on the disposable camera CD box. It's a minor mod only, but works gre at with fine steel wool (strands 1 m m
t o a f e w c m l o n g e x p l o d e r e l i a b l y a n d l o u d l y ) . I u s e 2 * 1 0 m o f 0 . 7 5 m m 2 copper cable.
Press the "charge" button until the neon lamp starts blinking. The "test" pushbutton is a continuity tester. W h e n p r e s s e d , t h e
n e o n l a m p m ust glow steadily (instead of blink) to test OK. This all works with the safety switch still "off". O nly when really
ready to "go", switch it on and p r e s s " f i r e " . T h e d e s i g n u s e s t h e x e n o n b u l b i t s e l f a s t h e p ower pulse switch.
The circuit doesn't need a master on/off, as far as battery drain is concerned, since it only draws nanoam peres when idle.
HVD January 12th , 2004, 08:44 AM

I don't think it draws any current when idle. If by idle yo u m ean when charge isn't pressed then the transister isn't 'on' and
thus no current flows. Unless you m ean when the transister is 'off' then it's collector - emm itter resistance is technically not
infin itely larg e , a n d s o s o m e s m all current will flow?
Anyway it's a m oot point as long as your circuit works.
I looked at using the flash tube to switch the HV, but i figured I'd be losing too m uch energy through it (i fire 330 ohm
resistors at the end o f 100m of line).
I like yout te st switch - i wish I'd designed something in t o m i n e b e c a u s e o c c a s s i o n a l l y i g e t s h o r t s b e c a u s e m y l i n e i s k i n k e d -
although actually thin king about it your test switch would only de tect open circuits - doh!
Cheers
HVD
P.s If you ever get problems with your wire wool breakin g (i did) then 330 ohm or so resistors really do solve all your problem s.
They are safe (need high voltage to fire), very sturdy, easy to work with, will NOT break and are just generally great :-) Use
carbon film o n e s t h o u g h - n o t m etal film.
matjaz January 15th , 2004, 07:56 AM

Y e s , I m eant the transistor leak. My am perm eter read 0.0uA, so it was nanoam ps at most. But it might be much less. Anyway,
that gives more than the shelf life of batteries anyway.
You're right, my test switch on ly detects open circuits... I couldn't possibly detect a short, since I use steel wool and it has
resistance co mparable to that of the cable.
T h e m a i n p r o b l e m s when adding featu res to the camera flash circuit are

- separation of testing circuitry from the high potentials at the sam e connectors
- low supply voltage available: 1.3-1.6 volts
So it would be quite a pain to add short/open detection to this one. But if you care to carry a tiny separate 3V or 9V powered
gadget, I could think one up.
Yes, I tried the resistors and it works with som e m odels, it's probably the carbon / metal that matters.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Surveillance Opera tions
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View Full Version : Surveillance Operations
Flake2m July 25th, 20 03, 10:0 3 AM

Knowing how to conduct a surveillance operation successfully can be im portant, especially if you want to know the capabilities of
the target(s). Since knowledge is powe r, and with technology ma king it possible for even the novice to conduct surveillance
operations I figured it would b e worth discussing in this forum.
Also if you know how to conduct a surveillance operation, then it would also help you to conduct counter surveillance operatio n
if yo u think the Feds are on to you.
The legallity of this depends from country to co untry. In Oz thou gh, under the surveillance act it is only illegal to covertly
survey private acts. You can get away with cond ucting a surveillance operation on a cop or judge etc, but no t on som e o n e
shower ;).
Imperial July 26th, 20 03, 07:1 3 AM

W ell a successful surveillance operation would depend on equipment.
W ireless equ ipm ent is hardest to maintain, mo s t e x p e n s i v e , b u t e a s i e s t t o h i d e .
P l a n ting the equipme nt is also an issue. I think som eone will notice you putting cameras all over their house. The best thing
would be just to walk around the property in question, a nd find the plans to it, etc. Or pay them a legal visit and use the
opportunity to find out what you are up against. That is the best form of surveillance, and pictures can be taken from p e n
cams, etc. which can be used in later p lanning.
yt2095 July 26th, 20 03, 07:3 6 AM

people like freebies, how about door to door giving away of free smoke alarm s (you can buy them in bulk for pocket change)
just make sure the one you give away to your spyee is the one with the bug in it. do a few other doors so as not to look
suspicious (you don`t even have to kn ock them if you can`t be seen) then drive off :)
m y friends ex-wife has severa l in her house as a result of this ploy :)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Weird ignitor problem?
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HVD July 27th, 2003, 09:10 AM

I'm trying to make ignitoers by dipping the bridge wire assembly in a mix of double base powder (bullseye to be precise) and acetone. I've used just enough acetone to get
the DBSP into a thick, slightly runny black paste.
I've tried using steel wool (which thrown out white hot fragments) and thicker strands of steel thread that just glow red hot. However my ignitors just seem to fail to ignite the
set DBSP! I can't think why this is, as I've read about quite a few people using this method to make ignitors.
The bridge wires ignite the DBSP when it's loose, just not when it's set into a hard mass around the bridgewire. Even the red hot bridge wire just makes the set DBSP smoke
and fizzle a bit.
Any ideas? Lots of other people seem to be able to get this method to work?
HVD
yt2095 July 27th, 2003, 09:36 AM

this may sound like a dumb question, but do you let it go completely dry first?
Here`s the method I use, it may or maynot be of any use to you, but on the off chance, here it is.
1. I don`t use wire wool. I use a single strand of multi strand buss wire.
2. cut a 2" length and attatch one end to your main current wire (solder helps but not essential)
3. get the thinest needle or pin you can find and make a coil with your thin wire by wrapping it around the pin and making sure all the winds are touching.
4. attatch the other end to your current wire, you`ve now made a crude bulb.
5. I use wetted crushed safety matches in a paste to cover my coil (you could try a version this way or use your DBSP paste)
6. when entirely dry I coat in NC laquer (ping pong balls and acetone) if I have none, nail varnish will work too.
the advantage of this method IMO is that the heat is greater and the coil lasts longer before breakage. it WILL however require more power than your wire wool ignitors. I use
a hand cranked generator to charge a capacitor for mine (36 volts under load).
hope this helps a little :)
HVD July 27th, 2003, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by yt2095
this may sound like a dumb question, but do you let it go completely dry first?
Well, i thought at first that it might just still be a little damp. But i made a second batch (of three ignitors) and left them on a sunny window ledge for about 4 hours. They
certainly felt very dry. I noticed the skin had sort of crinkled up a bit around the ignitor, i suppose that could be acting as a barier stopping the acetone from the inside
evaporating quickly?
HVD
yt2095 July 27th, 2003, 09:57 AM

Hmmm...
yeah, that skins normal and so`s the crinkle effect (be carefull as the shrinkage can snap mono fillements, that`s where the coil technique helps too)
a good way to test is put them in a plastic bag or clean jar for 10 mins, then take a sniff, if it still smells like acetone, they`re not dry (I use this in multi layer nail varnish coats
to test if its dry)
Mr Cool July 27th, 2003, 11:56 AM

Adding a bit of BP or matchead powder to your DBSP will probably help it to ignite.
Another way to get very robust ignitors is to wrap some fusewire, nichrome or whatever around a 5mm length of cotton string that's been soaked in saturated NaClO3 solution
and left to dry. Then coat it all in the varnish of your choice, and let the varnish dry. The string will ignite easily from a red-hot wire, and as well as making a big hot flame, it
spits out bits of ash, slag, burning stuff etc, and they burn for a second or thereabouts, so it's got plenty of time to get things going.
A little bit of blackmatch fuse will also work very well in place of the chlorate-soaked string, as will anything which ignites easily and burns fiercely.
I prefer this method to coating the wire in a pyro comp, since it makes very sturdy little ignitors. If you coat a wire in pyro comp, then it will break off very easily if you're not
careful.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Blast Cham ber
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View Full Version : Blast Chamber
knowledgehungry July 28th, 20 03, 11:1 3 AM

As I have m entioned before I live in a relatively urban envirome nt, thus m aking testing difficult, I can go to places where it is
s a f e to set off larger am ounts of things but for doing a sm all test on a newly created explosive it is a hassle. So i was
contem platin g buildin g a blasting cham ber, I only want som ething that will handle charges of abou t 10 gram s AP, the box
d o e s n t h a v e t o c o m p l e t e l y e l i m inate sound but I would like it to muffle it som e . H a s a n y o ne had any experience with
s o m ething of this nature? I'm thinking of it being basically a box with som e sand in it. Any thoughts?
controlphreak July 28th, 20 03, 11:4 2 AM

You could try using one of tho s e m ilotary m etal foot lockers and /or am m o containers that you can find at so m any m ilitary
surp lus store s. Those I would think would be ideal, because they are basicly indestructible and add a little sand and your great.
Just my idea. Actually I kinda pulled it from I think it was Phrak when they discussed hooking up your com p u t e r i n s i d e o n e
incase the pigs came so you could demolish it with therm ite. Som ething like that. Anywys, that's m y thoughts.
cotnrolphreak
zaibatsu July 28th, 20 03, 12:4 4 PM

I'm suprised at you Knowledge - you're a long-term mem ber and you didn't search! Don't let this happen a gain. I'm leaving
this thread locked, so you can s e e w h a t h a p p e n e d , a n d t o r e m i n d p e o p l e t h a t e v e n m e m bers have to search before they po st
:mad:
But, as you proved yourself incapable of searching, here's a thread to ge t you started.
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1754

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > how to increasing the range of a remote detonator?
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View Full Version : how to increasing the range of a remote detonator?
aster August 4th, 2003, 11:13 AM

i have remote detonators from modified remote bell, each has range approximately 150 metre, anybody knows how to increasing the range? how to modified them? i need a
more far distance since i will detonate a bigger charge, thanks
yt2095 August 4th, 2003, 11:22 AM

this is a bit of a null question.
You don`t state it`s frequency or present data like a circuit diag or even a make or model?
it`s like saying "how long is a peice of string" really.
I could say things like, tweak the cans with a signal strength meter, or build a matched linear RF amp, or extend the antenna to full wave. all would be perfectly valid, but
useless to you or anyone else here.
have a re-think about your question! we`re NOT mind readers.
Arthis August 4th, 2003, 06:09 PM

Let's not be so harsh.
You can increase the range of your emitter by coupling the system with an amplifier. I think a simple system could easily do the job: you can normally do it with an ampliop
(you understand ? I don't know the component name in English). Anyway, even if you don't know anything in electronics you can do it with a specialized magazine, they
propose tons of circuits.
That method oblige you to make a circuit, but it can be adapted on the new controller you will have to rebuy each time (hey, you lose one part !).
But the simpliest thing would be to buy several remote detonator, and place them in a chain, and you only have to connect the ring of a receiver to the interuptor of the
emitter.
Not that it is obvious, but it's not really difficult to do.
A bit more difficult would be to place a relay with a high range in a determined place, you control an emitter, and in a given range you can place your charge and be where you
want; in fact it's not more difficult, you just need a good battery to use it. the system is useful when detonating several bombs at the same time (urban destabilization ;)).

With the available data (stuff all) I can only speculate, but it is likely the transmitter has a small loop antenna on the pcb, given the range. Commonly with these cheap short
range transmitters the loop is also part of the resonant circuit that determines the transmit frequency. So if you mess with it you will most likely detune it. This also means
there is no simple way to couple in a power amp, or even another antenna.
Essentially, use these things as they are and accept the range limitation. If you want more range buy a better radio system.
The simple fact that you need to ask this question tells me you do not have sufficient knowledge and skill to achieve the result you want. I'm not trying to be insulting, so
please don't be offended - I think most people have no idea just how much engineering goes into such a simple looking device.
aster August 7th, 2003, 07:48 AM

ok...ok thanks to all, i will learn more then to improve my knowledge, and to increasing my detonators range:D thanks a lot
parmin September 16th, 2003, 12:50 AM

It has been more than one month since I saw this post, I hope the subject has not been stale yet.
:rolleyes:
Since this is a subject that really interest me, I think I should add to it.
What I want to add are:

- why bother to re construct unsafe remote control (from a door bell? Strewth!!:confused: ) Should there be any house nearby with similar device and someone happens to
press the bell while you connecting the device, BOOM!!:confused:
- Remote controlled alarm keyfobs sometimes works up to 30 meters away, that may be enough for some not so large bangers. You may be able to increase the sensitivity of
the receiver by adding longer antena to it, thus giving it better range.:o But bear in mind that this is also not safe.
- Oatley Electronics in Australia sells remote control TX and RX module that works at 1 KM line of sight. However, it is adviseable to place onto the circuit a coding system that
is unique to your design so there would be minimal chance of the device to be activated without your say so:p
I have been making remote control devices for a while now and I have yet to find a fail safe device.
I could help in the design of such device (for the circuit diagrams and/or coding devices) should there be anyone require it. My reason for this is for the safety of the
experimenter. Please do not use simple uncoded remotes (like doorbells :eek: ) your finger/leg/eye/intestine worth more than the cost of a well designed remote detonation
device. Play it safe.;)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Micro-UAV's & propulsion
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Here's a little cutie (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1270306.stm) , a bit on the clumsy side, and not with much lift, but with LOTS of potential.
It seems that the power supply with these things is always the problem. There was another thread along these lines a while ago (the little multi motor hovering thing), but this thread is more to do with motive
power than anything else.
If it's completely electrically powered, then the battery for anything like this is going to be the main weight and a major limitation. On some of the missiles I worked on, they have a pyrotechnic "thermal
battery" as well as pyrotechnic charges to provide power to the guidance gyro's (now superceded) and the control fins.
What do we reckon about a pyrotechnic semi-internal combustion engine for this type of device? It could be as simple as a single turbine engine (quieter), or you could have multi engines driven from a central
combustion chamber, with individual power controlled by a central servo system.
Whatever, one difficulty is going to be varying the power produced by your pyrotechnic comp. Most such compositions have an increased rate of burn along with pressure. I think you'd need some kind of dump
valve in case of overpressure, as well as a way of increasing the area of combustion if you needed more power.
An advantage though, is that your craft would get substantially lighter as the mission went on, unlike the battery, which stays the same weight.
Anyone got ideas as to the relative efficiency of an electric system versus something like this?

If you can use thermal energy:
Metal + Acid --> H2 + salt
H2 greatly decreases the density of the battery and could even be used for floating.
If not, just burn the stuff!;)
knowledgehungry August 13th, 2003, 03:33 PM

Using Acid plus a metal will not decrease the density of the battery, unless the salt is somehow removed as it is formed, because the mass stays the samein side the battery while the volume stays the same.

What I meant to say is that the H2 would be vented off to fill a chamber or balloon. That will decrease density.

Electric motors can be very efficient, but power to weight ratio is the problem. Piezo-electric motors could be used to drive a micro-UAV.
For a power source, if you are going thermal then it will always be best to use air as the oxidiser, since you don't have to carry it on board. Maybe a zinc-air battery or a methanol fuel cell would be good. Li-ion
batteries have a pretty good energy / weight ratio. Best I've heard of is the sodium/sulphur battery - but it only operates at 300C :(
For a heat engine you could use a Stirling cycle engine - quiet, efficient, can use a continuous external heat source
knowledgehungry August 14th, 2003, 09:19 AM

I always thought that stirling engines would be too heavy for use in aviation... The ones i've seen are always pretty big, plus an external heat source would make it even more bulky.
Jager August 15th, 2003, 07:04 PM

attach a balloon of hydrogen to that gizmo, and instead of using a battery, use a gas turbine or a tesla turbine that runs on the hydrogen, then turbine would then be conected to a magneto, that way you
wouldn't have to have a battery.
Tuatara August 16th, 2003, 12:28 AM

And the whole thing would weigh far more than the equivalent Lithium primary battery.

Jager:
attach a balloon of hydrogen to that gizmo, and instead of using a battery, use a gas turbine or a tesla turbine that runs on the hydrogen, then turbine would then be conected to a magneto, that way you
wouldn't have to have a battery.
Me:
If not, just burn the stuff!
Really inventive of you! :rolleyes:

Fucking read posts before posting.
Jager August 16th, 2003, 06:13 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If not, just burn the stuff!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you caught me...hot damn, I bet the police chief will promote you to detective after this big bust
I think Tuatara is right, it was a bad idea

No, not a bad idea, just an inappropriate one in this instance. All ideas have merit - thats how new stuff gets invented.

you caught me...hot damn, I bet the police chief will promote you to detective after this big bust
You don't want to run into the police chief, so you better lay low. :mad:
zaibatsu August 17th, 2003, 11:23 AM

End this line of discussion quickly Vulture and Jager, I don't want to have to ban anyone. Jager, there is no point repeating things already discussed in the topic, it isn't useful.
Arkangel November 14th, 2003, 11:38 AM

Now THIS (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3262557.stm) is more practical!
Looks a sexy little beast, which I'd had one for my action man when I was a kid.
And the link also includes a STUPID remark from some idiot journalist - Its new helicopter features vertical take-off and the ability to hover
Which would be impressive if we were talking about a submarine, but isn't that what helicopters DO? What a fucking moron:rolleyes:
Indeed it is what they do. Otherwise it would be a plane! Of course, if journo's were all the human race had, we would still be sitting in our caves, too scared to leave without army back-up. We would have
scared and starved ourselves to death...
I think the idea of building a micro-UAV is nice, but to be realistic, there are lots of companies throwing lots of money at this problem, so it is unlikely anyone on the forum is going to have a major success at
home.
As something that might be more realistic, has anyone tried doing the Estes (or other model rocketry) thing with the camera, and taking a photo, and parachuting it down?
With a small wireless camera, you wouldn't need to develop the film, you would have a constant feed which you could capture into your PC, then review. Once the camera is floating back down, it is still
streaming you live footage, and the signal from the camera means that, for tests, etc. you can find it a bit more easily (important with a 200 camera!)
Wouldn't this be the perfect way to do a sit. rep. if the SWAT team were sat outside?
A development from that would be to make the camera into a little self-righting turret that you could then "pop-up" and have a look around with.
I could start talking about my idea for a knife missile, a la Iain M. Banks, but the rules say not too! (and it involves Hydrogen :p )

Since more than 24 hours has passed, I can't edit my post. However, there have been substantial advances!
Check out http://www.otherlandtoys.co.uk/product397/product_info.html. This little beastie will fly around under your control, indoors. I bought one the other day, shown here (http://www.gadgetshop.com/
eshop/product.asp?pf_id=16748&SITE=1&VID=&S_ID=187B0171DFE44AB68DB2BAD0F192C322&REFID=0&SESSID=&BRAND=1&S_TYPE=U&AV=F&QB=F&CAMID=0&BV=0) but it doesn't have steering,
and cost less than half as much.
If you are loaded, try http://www.hobbytron.net/Dragan-Fly-4-deal.html for a camera mounted version! Damned expensive, though.
Also, there are some available on eBay for thirty quid as featured items, which are helicopter type devices, with a greater range, which are styled as proper helicopters Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/
eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3155032148&category=1185).
p.s. where is everyone? In this area it so looks like I am post whoring! On October 23rd there were 61 people... Is it something I said?
TRUTHSEEKER November 18th, 2003, 06:36 PM

You can buy thermo-electric modules that convert heat to electricity from surplus electronics stores. They can also be purchased from manufacturers. Some small refrigerators use them ( one side gets cold
and one side gets hot when electricity is applied to them).
This may allow you to use the heat of the motor to generate electricity for the electronics.

TRUTHSEEKER,
using the heat energy from the motor to power the motor is perpetual motion - it cannot work!
You would need some kind of heat source that provided heat continuously. The problem is, if you get the junction too hot, it will destroy the semiconductor. It would be better to take a higher quality heat
source, such as petrol, and just use that in an engine.
Wild Catmage November 19th, 2003, 05:36 AM

Originally posted by Jack's Complete
As something that might be more realistic, has anyone tried doing the Estes (or other model rocketry) thing with the camera, and taking a photo, and parachuting it down?
There is a good collection of videos shot with various cameras at: http://www.dph.com/vidroc/vidroc_1.htm
"For less than $100.00, you can purchase a wireless 2.4GHz video system that will transmit video and audio back to the ground for recording. Several companies sell a suitable downlink system -- X10's XCam
(www.X10.com), Spy Eagle's SpyCam (www.SpyEagle.com), Plantraco's Color ATV and RF-Video.com, to name a few."
The only problem I can percieve is that there would not be much footage, as the rocket's flight time is farily short, and a rocket is not as controllable as a helicopter. However, a rocket is much faster and would
be extremely difficult for the cops/feds/whatever to shoot at, unlike a helicopter.
A rocket could also be coupled with a flare for use at night, but the image would probably be pretty crap due to the poor light.
Blackhawk November 19th, 2003, 06:22 AM

As for the camera in a rocket thing, I have dont that, granted in a rocket that was 2.2m tall, but the actual camera unit was only around 15cm long. The camera was a dolphin digital pencam I got for $50 AUD
from DSE on special, it will take 26pics at 640:480 or 76 at 325:240 or crappy little avi vids at around 3fps (Really not worth it). The rocket flew to 935ft AGL (Onboard altimiter reading) and the camera was
internally hotwired to a DSE pulse timer to take one picture every second. The timer was activated when two plates touched together under the G forces of liftoff, which latched an SCR on so the timer didn't
turn off after the rocket had stopped accelerating. All in All I got 26 good shots, the camera worked much better than I thought it would, unfortunately I have nowhere to put them on the internet so if you want
them email me and I'll send the best ones.
The camera: http://www.dolphinfast.com/products/007.html

The timer: http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/3fbb43bb0b0b52e0273fc0a87f9c0722/Product/View/K1331
The rocket (Mine is Heavily modded): http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/customersite/products/kits/mirage.html
The motor: http://www.thrustcurve.org/AEH128.shtml

A peltier needs to get damn hot to generate a significant voltage/current, a motor that hot would be long dead.
Also, the power generated by the peltier would probably be less than the power required to lift the extra weight of the peltier.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Gloveless gloves
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Anyone considering doing anything contrary to the "law" is well advised to take the precaution of wearing gloves and all the
other sensible stuff to avoid d etection.
There will be times th ough, when simply wearing gloves will draw attention. You m ight be on a recce, or doing something
inno cuous, yet you don't want to be leaving dabs all over the place.
Forg ive m e if this has been discussed elsewhere, but New Skin (http://www.westburypharm acy.com /westburystore/prods/
499657.htm l) is handy stuff for cuts and grazes (stings like fuck ) but could also be used to apply a layer of transpa rent
plastic/rubbe r over all the und er surfaces of your hand. This way, when you touch anything, you'll leave no prints, and nobody
will be any the wiser unless yo u're care less;)
Chemical_burn August 13th, 2003, 12:07 PM

Hm m a n i n t r e s t i n g i d e a b u t r e m e m ber to be careful as you dont want to accidently remove a sm all piece of "New Skin" and
leave it fro the cops to find. They maybe able to pull latent prints off of it or DNA evidence fmo skin cells. I still believe that
gloves would work best. If you dont wa nt to be noticed then put the gloves on after you get to your intende d target. Just mo ve
t o a s e c l u d e d a r e a a n d p u t t h e m on. Also you could ware skin tight gloves that are the sam e color as your skin this woud ke e p
people at a distance from noticeing bu t wouldn't work up close. To help you look the part you could also dress m ore form al,
such as ware a nice business suit so that it doe sn't look like you shouldn t be wareing gloves. I mean what well off b u s i n e s s
m an would want to get his hands sirty ;).
Ok well thats just a few of my thoughs.

Till next tim e
zaibatsu August 13th, 2003, 12:14 PM

Quite sim ilar to new skin I'm sure, but it would also be possible to brush on liquid latex, the type used in m o u l d m aking for
GRP etc. A very good idea though
nbk2000 August 13th, 2003, 03:30 PM

I've mentioned this trick before, but I m ight as well repeat it.
You use an aerosol spray can of Nu-Skin, spraying your hand front and b ack, and let it dry. You then repea t this another four
tim es till you have 5 layers covering your entire hand, from the tips of your fingers (directly under the nail) to your wrist. The
outer layers would have no DNA in them .
It's waterproof, won't sweat off, and is fairly wear resistant. Best of all, it's not noticable, even closeup. :) And it will wash off
with soap and water.
I've thought about the utility of the prosthetic gloves that burn victims ca n wear to disguise their m e l t e d f l e s h . T h e y l o o k l i k e
normal hands, but are made of latex or silicone. I don't know how realistic they'd look on close exam ination, but they mustn't
look too fake, otherwise the cripsy critters wouldn't wear them, right?
I also saw this new cosmetic lip gloss that leaves a layer of vinyl plastic on the lips when it dries. It looks sm ooth as liquid.
P e r h a p s a p a i n t i n g o f t h i s o n o n e s f i n g e r s w o u l d l e a v e a s m ooth vinyl coating?
mrnoface August 15th, 2003, 07:39 PM

super glue on your finger tips works great with a few coats.. obviously wont conceal your palms and side prints but its a great
quick method..
- m nf
nbk2000 August 15th, 2003, 11:15 PM

A n d p a l m prints will get you busted just the same as a fingerprint. :rolleyes:
If it's not full hand co verage, than it's too iffy to chance it, thus superglue is out. Oh, and don't forget DNA too.
pangos_59 February 21st, 2004, 05:17 AM

A n d p a l m prints will get you busted just the same as a fingerprint. :rolleyes:
If it's not full hand co verage, than it's too iffy to chance it, thus superglue is out. Oh, and don't forget DNA too. Q u o t i n g o n t h e
DNA part Sandia Labs in the U .S. has been working on ways to extract DNA from sweat..
Also investigators could Luminol the re m n a n t s .
festergrump February 26th, 2004, 07:30 PM

Just for the record: a home invasion scenario (burglary or B+E), I can tell you that in sm aller towns in the U S they don't just
instantly dust for fingerprints if nobody was actually assaulted. T his is som ething the homeowner must pay for out of pocket
(believe it, it happened to me !) :m ad: . DNA, wonder what that would cost a hom eowner...
W ere I so inclined to break into ANY facility, though, (be it a home or business) I would want som e thing that would come off
easily when I no longer needed the protection but not b efore.
NBK2000, will that Nu skin stuff rub off or flake off with a good bit of friction... say rubbing your hands together really hard? Me
thinks I would choose that approach if it does for the sim ple reason that a pile of the rubbings or flakes probably would not do
anyone much good even if they were discovered at a distant, rem ote location. :D
Arkangel March 3rd, 2004, 12:41 PM
Nu skin peels off pretty easily, just like the pva glue stuff that you use in school. Mind you, it leaves a perfect negative im a g e
of your skin, so as you've intim ated, you'd wan t to mak e sure that any such "ima ge" was carefully destroyed.
nbk2000 March 3rd, 2004, 05:47 PM

Fortunately, as Nu-Sk in is NC -based, it'll dissolve in all the usual NC solvents quite readily, prior to pouring into the sewer or
loose earth.
It'd also be quite easy to rub it off using something abrasive. A sm all piece of pu mice stone or sandstone would do the trick .
:)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Acid Attacks
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MrSamosa August 15th, 2003, 01:13 PM

Take a look at this BBC Article, about a woman in Pakistan who was the victim of an acid attack...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3097469.stm
Personally, I find Acid Attacks to be on e of the most heinous crim es im a g i n a b l e . P e o p l e s a y R a p e h a s l i f e - t i m e effects, but I
can't see how it comp ares to being burnt by Acid. It's actaully very sad, e specially how the woman was saying, "We didn't know
that washing away the acid would have m e a n t l e s s d a m a g e . "
But, I do have a sadistic side. In NBK's PDF, he m entions that rape can be a form of Torture/Intimidation... But, rape goes
a g a i n s t s o m e p e o p l e ' s m orals. In place of that, in perhaps even m ore effectively, one can use Acid as a means of
intim idation/retribution against inform a n t s o r e n e m ies. It is indeed a fate worse than death- to turn them into "livin g corpses."
Also, it doesn't seem to be a very difficult task, it leaves less DNA evidence, and it is chea p! Really- how easily can you buy a
Liter of Sulfuric Acid o r even Hydrochloric Acid at the Hardware Store?? If you are feeling especially sadistic, you could use
Piranha fluid...nothing like igniting someone's flesh, so that when they cry, "I'm on fire!" they'll be telling the truth :D .
Alternately, maybe Hydrofluoric Acid. Even in the dilute 2% solutions, if you pour the whole 500 m L b o t t l e o n s o m e o ne, it
should kill th em (especially if they don't even know wha t was poured on them- thus the Paramedics would not know to use
Calcium Gluconate).
Ultimately though, I sim ply ca nnot respect Acid attacks on the basis of, "She rejected m y advances," or some crap like that.
But as a m eans of intim idation and retribution against Informan ts and Enem ies, then it gains a bit of respectability. ;)
mrnoface August 15th, 2003, 07:38 PM

W hat do you m ean when you say "Pira nha fluid" i have never heard of the stuff..
- m nf
Rhadon August 15th, 2003, 08:41 PM

m rnoface: This would have be en an excellent possibility to do a search. Just to show you that this has already been d i s c u s s e d ,
go here (http://www.roguesci.org/thefo rum /showthread.php?threadid=734&postid=13826#post13826) to get to the post in
which MrSamosa men tioned the com position of "piranha fluid". This time I did the work for you, next time you can do it on
your own.
MrSam osa: Although it looks m uch too hard for m ost acts of revenge to m e , t h i s m e t h o d m ay be applicable in very severe
cases. Then the question is which compound will be the most harm ful one. I'd probably go with aqua regia or even better conc.
NaOH solutio n (the substance used would not necessarily have to ba acidic) because HF is both hard to acquire and does kill
too fast.
I doubt that "piranha fluid" would literally set a body on fire tough, alone for the fact that there is so much water in it.
nbk2000 August 15th, 2003, 11:15 PM

Ah, but the hair of the head, and any clothes the victim was wearing, would be highly susceptable to ignition. :)
HF would be lethal, defeating the whole point of using a cid, since it's inte nded to m utilate the victim , while leaving them alive
a s a living exam ple to warn others.
Lye is also excellent, since it dissolves flesh qu ite readily, and without nasty fum e s .
The whole point of using this technique would be as a punishment for crim inals to use against inform ers/undercovers and
others who piss them off? In which case the victim h a s t o r e m a i n a l i v e , b e c a u s e a c o r p s e i s b u r i e d a n d s o o n f o r g o t t e n , b u t a
scarred (and living) victim is a constant rem inder. ;)
jelly August 17th, 2003, 12:16 PM

...but a scarred (and living) victim is a constant reminder.
... and your worst enemy, if you haven 't blinded him !
Chemical_burn August 17th, 2003, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by jelly
... and your worst enemy, if you haven 't blinded him !
I hear you there man .
Also I would agree with NBK2000 that LYE would work probably better because the first thing there gona do is try and throw
water on the burn :eek: I would hate to be them :D
nbk2000 August 17th, 2003, 08:42 PM

I ' d a s s u m e y o u ' r e d o i n g a g o o d j o b o f i t a n d h a v i n g t h e m i m m obilized/restrained prior to burning them , specifically so they
can't wash it off, and you can be sure to blind them . ;)
MrSamosa August 18th, 2003, 09:08 AM

I o n c e h a d a L y e / W ater/Alum inum crap solution on m y face, neck, and a rm s once, due to a k3wL pressure-bottle... Let me tell
you- it does NO T com e off easily. As you know, bases a re oily, and I was unlucky enough to have the solution be sticky as
well! All in all, it stayed on me for about 3 minutes, so I lost a little bit of skin to it (not to o m uch dam a g e , a t l e a s t I h a d t h e
sense to turn away and dive b efore the bottle burst).
If you were to attack the victim in their sleep, there wou ld be little need to even restrain them . Though you would wake them
up, they would have no clue what is go ing on or why the y are in so much pain. In the time it takes for them to get their
b e a r i n g s , d a m a g e h a s a l r e a d y b e e n d o n e - e s p ecially if you were to get their eyes!
Rhadon August 18th, 2003, 09:33 AM

o n c e h a d a L y e / W ater/Alum inum crap solution on m y face, neck, and arms once, due to a k3wL pressure-b ottle...
A b o u t t h e s a m e h a p p e n e d t o m e s o m e y e a r s a g o w h e n I was doing one of my first chem istry experim ents and tried to
produce hydrogen :). The bottle didn't burst an d it only hit m y hand, but I can ag ree that it's hard to get it off.
A d d i n g a l u m i n u m t o t h e N a O H solution just prior to use in an acid attack should im prove the results because of the heat
evolved, so this m igh t be especially useful if you don't want to p reheat your m ixture.
Kid Orgo August 18th, 2003, 03:41 PM

T h e r e ' s a c o m mercially available product called "Peel-Away'" that claim s t o b e a b l e t o r e m o v e 3 0 c o a t s o f p aint at a go, safely
and quickly. That claim is almost entirely false. Although easier than san ding the paint off, it's neither safe nor quick. The
active ingredient: NaOH. And lots of it. I had th e unfortunate experience of de-leading a house with this shit.
Any cuts on you will burn like a motherfuck, and if even a fraction of a drop stays on your skin, it'll MAKE a pretty so lid burn.
W e of course had vinegar. The only thing that approach e s t h e p a i n o f P e el-Away inside yo ur glove is a spray bottle of vinegar
to neutralize it.
A doctor I kn ow told me that standard treatm ent for lye burns is to douse the burn it water, because the ad dition of acid to
neutralize the burn m akes it worse. It goes against wha t some people here said, (but Kid, how could Fight Club be W RONG?)
but from how m uch it hurts to neutralize that shit, it might be true.
Before anyone starts to correct me, I realize now that it probably should have been a little bit more dilute of a vinegar solution.
And a spray bottle is probably not the way to apply it. O h well.
xyz S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2003, 08:41 AM

T h e r e a s o n t h a t a c i d c a n c a u s e m o r e d a m a g e i s t h e h e a t p r o d u c e d w h e n it neutralizes the base. It can also cause m ore burns
if it is a strong acid.
Here in Australia, NaOH com es in the form of sm a l l r o u n d p e l l e t s a b o u t 3 m m in diam eter. How about reloading a shotshell with
these in place of shot and red ucing the powder charge so that the pellets only penetrate about 1cm under the skin. It would
hurt like fuck and could not be rem oved in a hurry.
Aaron-V2.0 S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2003, 04:12 AM

I've pondered that idea a few weeks ago XYZ when thinking of a suitale punishm ent for a Pim p d a d d y w a n n a b e i n m y a r e a . A
lye pellet shotshell would be a sick twist to the classic rocksalt shell all the farm ers around h e r e u s e .
Flake2m S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2003, 06:09 AM

That has just given m e a nastier idea still.
As you know, paintball amm o uses a non-toxic water based paint. W ould it be possible to syringe out the filling from the
a m m o a n d e ither add som e NaOH/HCl to the p aint and reseal the the paintball so it can be fired?
OK, so its no t a new idea but it adds a new reason to why you need to avoid getting hit in paintball. You could also give som e
d00d you dislike a hardtim e b uy capping him in the back of the head with a NaO H/HCl paintball. :p Not only wil they have a
h e a d a c h e b u t s o m e nasty burns to go with it.
Cyclonite S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2003, 08:11 AM

P a i n tball coatings dissolve in water, im think that HCL would eat it away faster. Im not sure though
sauvin October 10th , 2003, 05:28 AM

O n c e a s h o t g u n i s u s e d t o h u r l a n y t h i n g b e s i d e s g u n p o w d e r a n d various metals (brass, lead, etc), I think it would b e unwise to
e v e r u s e s a i d w e a p o n a g a i n i n t h e m a n n e r i n t e nded. I would in particular refuse to use slugs in such a weapon.
Rock salt is corrosive enough - using any lye-like com pound would be m uch worse, and if I don't m ake mistake, barrel wall
thickness attrition would be co rrespondingly worse.
Unless, of co urse, the acid or base being hurled were solidly encased, pe rhaps a thin-walled polypropylene, to ruptu re
dramatically only on im pact with the target.
I, personally, am considering arm ing a sm all squirt bottle easily concealed in a coat pocket with a relatively high concentration
of HF. W hen I say "You'll get nothing from m e, m otherfucker", it'd be nice to be able to do so *qu ietly* an d m o v e
unobtrusively away at a reasonable pace.
T h e p r o b l e m I ' m having with HF is that I've seen reports that suggest that HF doesn't necessarily produce burning sensation s
right away. Som ething would have to b e m ixed with it to produce at least a mild burning sensation while the HF takes its time
announcing itself.
Anthony October 10th , 2 0 0 3 , 0 1 : 5 0 P M

You could use an old gun to fire the NaOH from , so the corrosion doens't really m atter, or you could clean the barrel after use.
Maybe coat the pellets in wax, as long as either pellets break up, or the wax breaks off before or during target penetration.
A sq uirt bottle of HF would be unneccesarily dangerous IMO. An strong acid or base would be just as (if not more) imm ediately
effective and wouldn't have the nasty side-effect of death - dead people prom pt serious p olitz investigations.
Besides you're going to be carrying this thing everyday and how often do you thin k you'll need it? All that tim e you're carrying it
a n d n o t b e i n g m ugged, you're putting your own health at risk. W hat if you fall over, or you bump into som ething, or som e o n e
bum ps into you and squashes the bottle?
At best you'd have perm anent injury at worst you'd end up a dead man, assum i n g a r e a s o n a b l e a m ount of acid and you not
having im m ediate access to copious am ounts of water and calcium gluconate gel, which would be likely on the street.
Overall, I think you would be the one m ost at risk from the device meant to protect you.
nbk2000 October 10th , 2 0 0 3 , 0 9 : 5 1 P M

Concentrated lye would be m uch safer than HF to be carrying next to "The Jewels" ;). HF can burn or poison you with no
warning. Lye...you'll feel that almost imm ediately, at least havin g a chan c e t o d o s o m e t h i n g a b o u t i t .
You'll also want som ething that'll m a k e a n a t t a cker claw his eyes out from the pain as his face slid e s o f f t h e b o n e o f h i s s k u l l .
:) HF, while possibly lethal, would take hours to do so, and wouldn't stop an attacker from stom pin g your ass in the meantim e .
:(
sauvin October 21st, 2003, 04:24 AM

Perhaps.
Few people ever even consider putting me in a position where I m ight seriously believe my life be at hasard, for whatever
reason. I'm told I sim ply have a forbidding presence. For this reason, I would assume tha t anybody who does "dare" accost
m e would tend to be, you should pardon a bad pun, deadly earnest and probably desperate and therefore unpredictable.
As cold as it m ay sound, the Big City streets can be an exercise in practical Darwinistics. The strong, the clever and the well-
armed survive. If som e t h u g d o e s a c c o s t m e, and I squirt his eyes with something too m ild, my life is necessarily at risk in any
event. I do not want said thug remem b e r i n g m e n e x t t i m e h e s e e s m e , a n d s o I s h o u l d b e m ost inclined to arrange that he
never see me again.
As for serious investigations, if said thug have a "rap sheet" a m i l e l o n g , i n a t i m e a n d p l a c e w h e r e m u r d e r t a k e s s e c o n d p l a c e

to drugs, I shouldn't lose m uch sleep.
xyz October 25th , 2 0 0 3 , 1 0 : 4 4 P M

About the corrosiveness of an NaOH shell, you could either use a simple 3/4" pipe shotgun, or you could give the NaOH pellets
a quick spray with som e furniture varnish or paint, then load then into the shell while wet (you have sealed around the wad with
wax of course to stop the powder getting wet). This should m a k e t h e m have a protective coating on them but they will also
stick togethe r, they should com e apart upon firing though.
They would be loaded wet and then you leave them to dry inside the she ll before you crim p the top. If you waited for them to
dry before loading, they would be stuck togehter in one huge m a s s .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Neural Disruptors
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nbk2000 August 15th, 2003, 08:43 PM

I was reading this months issue of Scientific American, when I saw an article about TMS (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation),
which is the use of electromagnetic fields to stimulate the synapses of the brain.
In the experiments (funded by the US military, naturally), they found that the EM fields only penetrate a centimeter or so into
the brain tissue, but that's only at "safe" energy levels.
The "unsafe" energy levels cause seizures and destruction of neural pathways. :)
I'm envisioning a contact range weapon that uses the new ultrahigh density aerogel capacitors to retain a very high amperage
charge, which would then be directed into the emitter, which is pressed against the targets head. A switch would be built into
the head of the ND so that, when pressed against the target, it would instantly discharge the energy as a high flux field into
the victims brain.
This could have applications as a wet-ops kind of weapon, killing the victim in what would appear to be a stroke or other
natural cause, since there'd be no residuals of any sort to indicate foul play.
There was a book published many years ago, the title of which I have long forgotten, that described the uses of EM fields to
alter brain functioning. The technology was primitive, but it had succedded in giving me the idea for something like this, and
the deep pockets of Uncle Sam have finally started to bring it about. :D
Mr Cool August 16th, 2003, 10:32 AM

I've read a report on tests with pulsed magnetic fields and brains. A woman was asked to count, and a pulsed magnetic field
was applied to her head. It basically went:
"One, two, three, four [field applied] four, four, four, four, four [field removed] five, six, seven..."
Weird...
I also know of someone who was temporarily messed up by moving in an NMR scanner. An experiment was being carried out
to see which bits of the brain were active when listening to different sounds, stories, music etc. So the volunteer was listening
to the sounds on some special headphones, which slipped off. He instinctively whipped round to catch them... neurons in brain
(conductive) rapidly moving in a field that will pull off a belt buckle from the other side of the room and propell it with enough
force to break your arm... I can't remember exactly what the effects were, but it didn't sound fun.
nbk2000 August 16th, 2003, 04:53 PM

She didn't notice she was stuck? Hmmmm....:D
That'd be just the thing to put on someones head! Apply a little EM field to the noggin', person goes into "Stuck" mode, you
do what you want, and when it's removed the person doesn't even know anything happened.
'Course, if you had to stick a device over their head to do it, they might notice...but if it could be done remotely....oh, the
possibilities! :)
Even if it was a device, that could have uses a an EM "handcuff" to immobilize a hostage/kidnapee', or as an electronic "date
rape drug" that would immobilize the victim without leaving any of those pesky metabolic traces that could be used as
evidence. :p
As long as these sorts of devices were extremely esoteric, and thus not common knowledge (at least to the cops/feds), no
one would believe that the guard couldn't move, or that the woman was helpless, when there's no marks or signs of drugs/
restraints. ;)
There's an article on the 'net somewhere called "The mind has no firewall" that describes these sorts of weapons being
developed by the military.
Given the inverse square law, the power required to "zap" an area about the size of...oh, say....a bank ;)...would be VERY
large. However, if it was a pulse, rather than continuous, then that could be managed by capacitor banks. Flip the switch,
everyone within proximity to the van or truck the device was in (BIG capacitors, don't you know!) goes into stuck mode for a
few minutes, and the crims go about their business.
Mr Cool August 16th, 2003, 05:24 PM

I think she might have been aware of what was happening, she just couldn't do anything about it. Like a CD player with a
scratched CD, that causes it to get stuck. The CD player knows it's playing the period of time 3:12 to 3:14 over and over
again, but it is powerless to stop doing it.
That'd be freaky. Knowing that you were saying four over and over, but not being able to stop yourself! Though that effect
would not be as useful as "stuck mode."
Anyway, I think that's how it was. It's a long time since I read it.
nbk2000 August 17th, 2003, 12:36 AM

If, instead of saying "four", you were told to walk, but were "stuck" in your chair because you couldn't get yourself "unstuck"
from sitting, then the fact that you were aware of your "stuckness" really is irrelevant, because you can't do anything to change
it.
If everyone in a bank was "stuck" doing what they were doing at the instant the TMS device was activated, and couldn't stop
me from clearing the place out, do I care that they can see me doing so? Not really, since the only important thing would be
that they couldn't stop me. :)
James August 19th, 2003, 04:50 PM

I don't suppose you could use a parabolic (or near parabolic) reflector to increase the range of the device? Also a Faraday
cage could probably be used to block at least some of the effect.
edit: I just did some quick reading. appearently they don't like releasing details. :( I think this (http://www.ists.unibe.ch/
sciam.pdf) is the article reffered to by NBK. Appearently the FDA doesn't want this used (http://www.cadwell.com/support/pdfs/
MES-10%20FDA%20Policy.pdf) for 'cranial stimulation'.
Arthis August 19th, 2003, 05:04 PM

The Faraday cage works if the electromagnetic signal comes from outside the cage. As noone will keep a "Faraday helmet" all
day long, it's pretty difficult to set up.
By the way, I need a few precisions about Faraday cages: I think they work because the electromagnetic wave has an electric
dimension, that make electrons move in the metal wires of the cage, thus acting like a metal plate. The wave is partly
reflected, and quasi nothing goes trough the cage.
The wave is stopped only if the lenght between 2 wires is lower than the wave lenght (lambda = c/f , with c speed of light, f
frequency of the signal).
Am I right ?
Because then it may not be easy to create an effective Faraday cage against that, depending on the frequency of the
disruptor.
btw, neural disruptors were imagined by Dan Simmons in the Hyperion cycle.

Arthis, you have the description of a Faraday cage pretty much correct. You will get minimal attenuation for a gap size greater
than 1/4 wavelength, gradually increasing to perfect shielding for solid metal, assuming infinite conductivity. For real metals
the shielding effect is also dependent on the thickness. This is where the 'skin effect' comes into play. The attenuation factor
is
-az ______________________________
Attenuation factor=e , a = \/( pi x Frequency x mu x sigma),
Where z is depth, mu is permeability of the metal and sigma is conductivity of the metal
and frequency is the frequency of the EM wave
Both the magnetic and electric fields are involved.
zeocrash September 2nd, 2003, 05:51 PM

i think the getting stuck thing is caused by the brain's inability to communicate with various other parts of the body, rather
than the brain not being able to work out what it is doing. i saw another interesting effect in a documentary about the body
once, the documentary involved a woman who was going into hospital to have a tumour removed from the language centre of
her brain. to find the language centre the woman was asked to count upwards while a surgeon poked around ther open skull
with a set of electrodes with a tiny voltage running between them. when touched on the language centre, the woman was
completely unable to speak and all her counting changed into a slurring gurgling noise, the electrode was removed and she
was able to count again.
A-BOMB September 2nd, 2003, 10:05 PM

Last months Scientific American had something along these lines I'll see if I can scan it in.
Arthis September 3rd, 2003, 04:43 AM

What you say zeo wouldn't explain why the person keeps saying "4": a number is a complex sound to tell, and a simple
unability for the brain to communicate with the rest of the body (or even part, as otherwise the person would stop breathing)
could not allow that.
Yes Tuatara, and if the skin effect is too deep into a too thin metal layer then you've got an antenna on the opposite side.
But the attenuation still is pretty good, considering most of the energy gets reflected, and another part is lost in the metal
(Joule effect). A helmet would be a good protection in fact.
Tuatara September 3rd, 2003, 06:31 PM

Arthis, I wasn't saying it wouldn't work! In fact, if you go through the numbers, any easily handled thickness of metal will
provide a very effective shield, especially if it is ferromagnetic. Example: a nickel shield only 100um thick will provide a very
effective shield down to quite low frequencies. The best materials for shielding are combinations like silver plated Mu metal (a
nickel / iron alloy)
Arthis September 8th, 2003, 11:27 AM

Researches on TMS are done to determine ways to use it as a cure. For example, some one armed people feel a pain in their
missing arm, due to special brain reorganization. The TMS seems to allow a better plasticity of the brain.
If TMS can be used as a weapon, it can be used too as a powerful body enhencer that one could have at home.
I remember having read a few years ago about special wave lenghts used to make you sleep better. The principle was to
imitate some of the magnetic fields the brain produce in some critical periods to re-apply them, forcing the brain to have the
activity you want: at that time, what had interessed me was the possibility to make you sleep so deeply that you only needed
a few hours of sleep (2-3) to feel totally restored.
There may be some even better possibilities:
There were significant improvements with TMS for performance in the digit symbol substitution and verbal fluency tests, but no
change of mood on a number of measures. There was also a reduction of pulse rate after TMS. The only side-specific TMS-
effect was on mean arterial pressure, which decreased pressure after left, but not after right prefrontal TMS.
In other work, scientists are finding that additional brain ailments may benefit from TMS. For example, researchers found that
TMS applied to the front part of the brain speeds up the ability of healthy volunteers to solve puzzles requiring skills in
analogical reasoning.
I would like to search a bit more on that topic to make one for myself (who knows, maybe I'll become a genius ;)).
A little PDF (http://web.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBriefings/BrainBriefings_Feb2002.pdf)
The frequencies used are between 1 and 100 Hz normally, 1 Hz being the one used for the first quote: link (http://
www.biomedcentral.com/1471-244X/2/1/abstract).
If any of you has information about the effects of different frequencies, I would be really interested: as TMS is under research,
there isn't much information available, though I'll look further on Google.
BTW, the frequencies used (over 1 Hz, and most between 25 and 100 Hz) mean that it's quasi impossible to make massive
Faraday protections, e.g. for bank employees, other than a full metal helmet.
grandyOse September 30th, 2003, 01:10 AM

I have read quite a few reports on these types of weapons. Mixing the reports with a large NaCl crystal, and seiving it through
my knowledge base, I have come to these conclusions:
1) you need a carrier wave to transmit the brain wave. This can be either audio (sub or super sonic) or EM (radio frequency
energy). A sound wave within the human hearing spectrum would have it's obvious uses and dissadvantages. This carrier
should be resonant with body structures such as small bones for ultrasonic, or emission / absorption spectrum lines for water,
hemoglobin, etc in the case of an RF carrier. The carrier could also be a bright light shone into the victum's eyes.
2) The modulating frequency should mimmic brain waves. They could "capture" an alpha wave and slowly slide in frequency to
the desired wave (sorry, I don't remember the names of all the brain waves and their associated states). The russians did a
lot of experiments in this regard. 13 Hz produced a sense of dread, and 77 Hz made the subjuect incontinent. I wish I could
remember some others.
3) If the carrier is precisely tuned to a receiving structure ( I find this unlikely) then you can frequency modulate the carrier
with the brain signal. Otherwise, you are better off with amplitude or pulse modulation. The pulse should not be PCM or some
other scheme; just an overdriven & clipped Am modulation.
4) sorry I don't have any hard data. These posts on this thread, so far, are mostly speculation anyway, so I thought I would
join in. I am very tired of component level electronics and do not intent to take on this project. I have too much on my plate
now as it is.
TRUTHSEEKER November 9th, 2003, 11:19 AM

From previous readings on "Scalar wave weapons" from about a year or so ago, I read that your brain has a "time base". It's
possible that the strong magnetic field is able to disrupt or temporarily suspend your brain's time base. Oh, the possibilites...

13 Hz produced a sense of dread, and 77 Hz made the subjuect incontinent. I wish I could remember some others.
Are you certain this is not data referring to the effects of infrasound?
grandyOse November 12th, 2003, 09:32 PM

I'm pretty sure the 77Hz was directly applied electric current, although the 13Hz figure may have been sonic. At these
frequencies, I don't think the ear has as much response as bones and other large structures for sound waves. I don't think it
much matters whether the source is sonic, optic, directly applied current, or electromagnetically induced. anything that would
set up oscillation in the nervous system ought to work equally well. I could be wrong about this, as my reliable data on the
subject is over 20 years old, and in my holey memory only.
Anyone with some electonics skills and a kid brother want to test this out? Try directly applied sinusoidal (LOW current) and
pulse voltage source at the temples. Try a strobe light, and try infrasonic (good luck finding a transducer, a large diameter 30'
long pipe might work). Also try an ultrasonic wave modulated at the low frequency. Also try a large electromagnet modulated
with the same signal generator used on the subject's head. Perhaps a human sized paint-shaker driven at the correct
frequency would also work. Actually, this paint shaker wouldn't be that hard to make; put a semi-circular flywheel on an electric
motor and mount it to a chair that has at least one degree of freedom. Of course sitting a shaking chair is going to induce
some kind of negative reaction, but it could be used to test effects versus frequency. I would stay away from the RF carrier
method. It would probably be one of the better real-life methods, but could prove hazardous to kid brother. Try all these
methods with the same frequency at first, to limit the variables. A second test round would be to determine frequency versus
effect, and if the effectiveness of the various induction methods varied with frequency.
Does anyone recall the Japanese cartoon that featured a monster with eyes that flashed at a rate that would induce sezures in
some significant percent of the viewers? Was this a myth?

It was called "Pokeman"
simply RED April 21st, 2004, 02:30 PM

There was an article in a magazine about that cartoon. It was written : "red flashes from 7 Hz up to 1 kHz can produce sezures
in the viewers".
I tried it with modulated red laser light on myself and it had absolutely no effect.
There was also an article about ultra low radio frequences. And it says the 77 and 13 herz were emmited with high inductivity
antena as radiowaves....
I don't think this will work...
There is a possibility to use microwaves. If not mess up at least torch up the victim's brain. This of course is only possible in
theory... but possible anyway...
nbk2000 April 21st, 2004, 05:22 PM

Flashing lights induce seizures only in people suceptible to them, with the percentage of the population being affected
decreasing with age, as children are more effected than adults.
simply RED April 23rd, 2004, 08:46 AM

If a psychoactive field exists its characteristics must be understood and after that - used.
Lets hunt in the electromagnetic field.
1. ELF (Extremely low frewuences)

2. Radio waves. (800 kHz - 3 GHz)
2.1 UHF
3. Microwaves.
4. IR
5. Visible light.
6......
Obviosuly 2,4,5,6.... have no influence.
For the whole spectre of 1, 2.1 and 3 I have no reliable info.
Xave April 25th, 2004, 02:18 PM

I think i read that same article in N.S. you're referring to. I also had a similar idea! a siezure inducer. i did a little research, i
think the problem with a device like this would be the susceptibility of your targets. Some individuals brain-waves are not
easily 'trained' into the frequency of the e.m. field.
The induction of seizures however, is quite crude and non-specific. E.m. pulses every 1-8 seconds are considered something of
a risk with T.M.S. so fast, intense pulses would be likely to induce incapacitation through seizures!
nbk2000 April 26th, 2004, 03:38 PM

Heating of the brain itself, by just a degree or so, within a couple of minutes is supposed to induce seizures, much as
someone with a high fever can begin convulsing.
The trick is how to heat the brain without cooking it like an egg in the process. :o
Bander April 27th, 2004, 01:43 AM

I am in the nearing the end of building a homebrew transcranial magnetic stimulation device for it's intended use. It will not
work as a weapon. To induce the proper e-field intensities needed to depolarize neurones and thus get them to fire one needs
a magnetic field strength in the order of 2-4 teslas--something that's not easy to do, especially with the inverse square law
working against you. The range of any such device will be severely limited. Unless one can borrow the sandia z-pinch marx
generator I don't foresee any more distance than direct application of the coil to the subjects head. It is not economically or
physically feasible. Your capacitor bank would have to weight hundreds of pounds, coil cooling would be huge and complex,
and repeated firings, that is rTMS would be near impossible--it would take megawatts of continuous power.
Also, about capacitors. Aerogel caps will not work. They are low voltage, typically in the ~1-10v range with moderately high
equivalent series resistance. Since pulse rise time is the most important factor for successful TMS they will not work (as I'll
explain below)
Most commercial TMS devices are pulsed with a thyristor. They use, on average, a ~3000 volt 20-200 microfarad capacitor (not
electrolytic, the back emf will destroy it most of the time) through a stimulation coil of 15-30 microHenries. Pulse length is
typically in the 100 microsecond range as neurons act as leaky integrators with a time constant of ~150 microseconds. So the
shorter the pulse the less energy you need to depolarize the nerve. So you see why aerogel caps won't work. The pulse rise
time is to slow to generate an appreciable efield. Far, far too slow.
Anyway, one can duplicate the works of companies such as MagStim and produce a normal transcranial magnetic stimulation
device with little capital investment. The hardest part is switching the high voltage high current pulse. I've chosen to go with a
triggered spark gap. I'll walk through my design.
A transcranial magnetic stimulator is not altogether different than a low powered magnetic can crusher I imagine many of you
have seen online. Here's an copy of my circuit:
2969v, 320uf, 20uH, 0.375 Ohm

Peak Current: 5182.54 amps
Time Ipeak: 0.09 milliseconds
Pulse Width: 0.20 milliseconds
Voltage Reversal: 1.42% , -42.26v max
Damping: Under
http://wetwarewiki.com/tms/device_psuedo_schem_sm.gif
Okay, first and foremost one needs energy dense capacitors that will be able to handle being shorted through an inductive
load and of the voltage required to keep the pulse short. Energy needs to be at least above one kilojoule. I aquired my
capacitor bank off of eBay, it totals 320 microfarads at 3000v. That's 1440 joules total (energy = 1/2(farads)(voltage)^2). It is
made of two unused 160uf (microfarad) 3kv photoflash capacitors that were intended for use in ultraviolet water purification. I
bought them for $15 each on eBay (an amazing deal). You can try non-pulse rated filter capacitors if that's all that's available
as they are cheaper and more plentiful.
http://wetwarewiki.com/tms/capacitors.jpg
Second you need a power source that is able to charge up the aforementioned capacitor bank in time to make it useful--that
is, able to operate at >1hz or so. Single pulse TMS has not been found to cause seizures in healthy patients, 10hz and above
has. The easiest way to do this is to get ahold of a microwave or two and take out the microwave oven transformer, or MOT as
we say in the hobby, and the high voltage diodes. You'll need 2 MOTs, and preferably 2 diodes (4 for a full wave rectifier, we
won't be doing that here, but it gives more current), but you can get by with one. So, in order to prevent the MOT from drawing
too much current and blowing a breaker or fuse you need to inductively ballast it, that's what the second MOT is for. In the
diagram below you can see that one MOT has it's secondary shorted out and has it's primary placed in series with the line the
second MOT is powered from. This should limit the current to under 20 amps. This will give you an AC current of ~2100v. But
AC will not charge a capacitor, so you can rectify this (pun intended, ;P ) by putting an appropriately rated diode (the one from
the microwave will do) in series with high voltage (secondary) output of the second microwave. This will give you what is called
half wave DC, and will pulse at 60hz. Now, when you rectify AC and turn it into DC the voltage is affected. You will have
sqrt(2)Voltagepeak. That is, sqrt(2)2100v = 2969.4 volts, which is perfect for charging out capacitors.
http://wetwarewiki.com/tms/MOTWiring.gif
http://wetwarewiki.com/tms/MOTWiring.jpg
This is just a mockup using old parts, btw. The actual device is scattered across the basement at this point.
Now, you can hookup the capacitors to the power supply above and they will be charged to full voltage relatively quickly, but
how do you switch that power into the stimulation coil? Commercial devices uses expensive thyristors and load balancing,
that's beyond me. But one can switch high voltage and high current rather effectively using a device called a trigatron, or
triggered spark gap (though there will be resistance losses and voltage drop ~200v). The idea is to take two small doorknobs
and drill a hole in the center of one, sticking an insulated electrode inside. These doorknobs are then placed just far enough
apart (perhaps a little farther to cut down on corona losses) so that when put in series with the power supply the current does
not arc across. That's the spark gap part. The triggering is done by putting the insulated internal electrode and the doorknob
surrounded it in a circuit wherein high voltage low current is pulsed (a cheap stun gun does this job admirably if one does not
have the knowledge to make something, or is lazy). This generates a conductive plasma that will be drawn out into the gap
between the two doorknobs by the efield and trigger a discharge of the capacitor bank. As for timing, I leave that modification
to you. A simple 555 circuit can be used to control the stun gun, or you could leave it be and hope the stun gun's rep rate is
appropriate...or go with a single pulse trigger. Perhaps a few pictures will explain better. Putting a fan perpendicular to this gap
will help with quenching. It needs to be a pretty strong fan when using MOTs.
http://wetwarewiki.com/tms/tsg_ani.gifhttp://wetwarewiki.com/tms/tsg_schm.gif
So, the last part one needs is the stimulator coil. This, arguably, is more important the capacitors even if it's easier to make/
aquire. And it is this that will make or break your device's efficiency. The coil shape will vary depending on the application it is
to be used for; brain stimulation or peripheral nerves, etc. There are three types of coils of varying strengths and weaknesses
on the market today-- circular, figure-8, and some funky flat half toroid of which I know little about. Circular coils typically offer
higher efficiencies but with lower resolution of stimulation. Figure eight coils offer moderate efficiencies with higher resolution in
nerve activation (5mm). For this context a circular coil would be best, and luckily the easiest. Construction is simple, using 16
gauge or lower wire (to handle high peak power and resistive heating) wind a circle with 15-18 turns and an inner diameter
from 60-70 mm and an outer diameter of 85-95 mm. It should be wound pancake style, not like a solenoid. If one is going to
make a high repition rate device heating will become a problem, at these currents and voltages most current is carried on the
outside 'skin' of a wire, as such you can use hollow tubes and run liquid coolants through to keep the coil from overheating. I
have not done that with my design. It's best to encapsulate the coil in expoxy if one can.
http://wetwarewiki.com/tms/coil1.jpghttp://wetwarewiki.com/tms/coil2.jpg
And there you have it, your own transcanial magnetic stimulation device that can be built for under $100. You can try upping
the power by using higher energy capacitors but it will get bulky. My device is already suitcase sized. A few tips: try and use
large diameter wire in construction to keep resistance down, and mind the high voltage as being shocked by a running MOT will
kill you.
If needed I can upload a wealth of information in pdf format on TMS to the FTP. But I highly doubt it will be called for since
TMS cannot be made into feasible weapon system.
nbk2000 April 27th, 2004, 05:05 PM

All information is good information, so upload it please.
And, just because you haven't made it into a weapon, doesn't mean someone else can't figure out how to. :)
Even just for its original harmless purpose, that's good to have too, as being able to stay up for several days at a stretch
without being tweaked out or zombified could be vital to the success of a "mission".
While inverse-square may make it impracticle for distance killing (for now), the original point of this thread was a non-
detectable means of killing, even if it had to be point-blank. A knapsack sized device with an attached "wand" that could be
applied to the victims head to short out their brain would still be feasible, as it could be carried by a "bike messanger" who'd
just so happen to get onto the same elevator as a target.
I'd not be worried about the power storage issue, as superconductor research goes on and will eventually solve that problem.
The important aspect is to have the device requirements (frequency and such) solved first, and watch as the components
continue to shrink, 'till one day you have a flashlight-sized brain cooker. :)
simply RED April 28th, 2004, 01:48 PM

Will a microwave oven magnetron pointed and "fired" at someone's head have some effect?
Obviously the answer is yes. The microwaves go through the matter and heat the water as they resonate with the H2O
molecules (rotational energy). Obviosuly the magnetron is possible to power with the current sources no matter the device will
be big.
Someone has microwave air abosorbtion diagram?
Bander April 29th, 2004, 08:28 PM

And, just because you haven't made it into a weapon, doesn't mean someone else can't figure out how to. :)
Quite right. My skill is far from (read: below) average when it comes to this field. Sometimes I get ahead of myself. :p
Will a microwave oven magnetron pointed and "fired" at someone's head have some effect?
Obviously the answer is yes. The microwaves go through the matter and heat the water as they resonate with the H2O
molecules (rotational energy). Obviosuly the magnetron is possible to power with the current sources no matter the device will
be big.
Someone has microwave air abosorbtion diagram?
Here's a "COMPILATION OF THE DIELECTRIC PROPERTIES OF BODY TISSUES AT RF AND MICROWAVE FREQUENCIES (http://
wetwarewiki.com/tms/DIELECTRIC/Report.html)" I've uploaded. It should answer most questions. Er, unless you were asking
about how air affects the propogation of a microwave signal--which is negligible when compared to other factors.
Also, a few more goodies with respect to microwave weapons.
Microwave weapon damage to humans can be divided into hard and soft lethality. Hard lethality means burning of human
flesh. At a frequency of ten gigahertz the energy density of an individual pulse that can effectively burn [human flesh] is 100
joules per square centimeter. As the frequency increases, the threshold value of the burning effect is lowered. For example, at
several tens of gigahertz, the energy density of an individual pulse that can effectively burn is just 20 joules per square
centimeter. Soft lethality of microwaves against human targets means destruction of human nerves and hearing. After brain
tissue absorbs an electromagnetic pulse, it slightly but rapidly expands and produces a supersonic wave which is recieved by
the inner ear. If the electromagnetic pulse energy exceeds the threshold and the supersonic wave is too strong, the human
ear will not function. The greatest electromagnetic pulse energy that the ear can accept is 0.04 joules per square centimeter.
http://wetwarewiki.com/tms/microwave_gen.gif http://wetwarewiki.com/tms/cornu.gif
Trends of Microwave Weapon Developement (http://wetwarewiki.com/tms/TrendsofMicrowaveWeaponDevelopment.pdf), a
China Aeronautics Industry Corporation document, translated by the US National Air Intelligence Center.
nbk2000 April 30th, 2004, 06:33 PM

Since the energy to deafen is 1/500 of that required to burn, it seems most practical to use a MW weapon as a means of
deafening an enemy, possibly making them unaware of your impending attack.
Though, the fact that they went suddenly deaf will not be overlooked for long, I'd think. :D
Combine deafening with smoke, and you protected by shielding and using TI, you'll have achieved [MIL-SPEAK]Total Spectrum
Dominance[/MIL-SPEAK]. ;)
As a terror weapon, deafening someone would rank low compared to blinding someone. Can MW be used to destroy optic
nerves, eye tissue, or induce hazing of the corneas?
vulture May 1st, 2004, 06:55 AM

If you want to fiddle around with brainwaves without buying expensive components, try looking into the older versions of Cool
Edit. It had a function to produce certain harmonic frequencies that could cause you to relax or something. I think it's the '96
version that had the function.
yawehzuv May 1st, 2004, 04:46 PM

I have heard you are never supposed to operate a microwave with the door open because the microwaves come out and screw
up your eyes. I think this is because of your eye containing lots of water to heat up. So I think any microwave could blind
somebody.
Bander May 2nd, 2004, 04:44 AM

As a terror weapon, deafening someone would rank low compared to blinding someone. Can MW be used to destroy optic
nerves, eye tissue, or induce hazing of the corneas?
The below is a half-assed summary and misc edited images from the extremely long document "Effects of Acute and
Prolonged Millimeter Wave Radiation Exposure Upon Corneal Endothelial Morphology.pdf" which, at 5.49MB, weighs in at a few
MB too many for me to host so I've uploaded it to the ftp.
Unfortunately primates in particular are well shielded when it comes to the eyes. In an experiment wherein rabbits and rhesus
monkeys were irradiated with 2.45Ghz (that is, standard microwave oven frequency) for varying times of 10 minutes to 120
minutes to figure out how the thresholds for cataracts to appear rabbits started clouding up at 100 mW/cm2. The monkeys
had facial burns but their eyes were not damaged even at power densities of 500 mW/cm2. Apparently this is becuase the
primate bone structure of deep-seated eyes shielded by well developed brows not only block some radiation but instead of
causing localized heating on the lens, the vitreous humor was heated instead. Thusly the key figure of 45*C (or, 5C over
normal) for the lens to cause damage was never reached. I imagine the situation would be analogous among humans even
with our slightly less pronounced brow lines.
I'm getting the feeling that causing damage to the eye is going to take quite a bit of microwave power--enough such that the
burning is going to happen first, so no sudden unexpected blinding. Damn.
http://wetwarewiki.com/tms/tissuethermalconductivity.gif http://wetwarewiki.com/tms/tissueat245.gif
http://wetwarewiki.com/tms/heatat245.gif
nbk2000 May 4th, 2004, 05:20 PM

Well, maybe eye flambe' is out of the question, but feeling your face suddenly burning and feeling like it's going to slide off
the bone (remember that scene from "India Jones" when the Nazis opened up the Ark of the Covenant? :D) is certainly going
to be a distraction.
Wonder how well protected the genitals would be? You'll usually find a nice metal antenna suspended right over the family
jewels, prime for catching heat from the MW.
BURNING NUTS! :eek:
:p
simply RED May 4th, 2004, 07:44 PM

Burning brains and other body parts will be great, but...
The ultimate goal will be to achieve transmition of sound with some kind of radiation. The sound must be "heared" directly
into the brain.
The device must have the ability to be pointed directly onto the "percipient".
Will the microwaves help? Maybe.
As it was said they are "catched" by the brain and turned to supersonic wave - which demages the hearing.
If the process is linear, not binar, modulating the waves (amplitude or impulse) may induce sound sensation.
The genitals are succeptable to irradiation, I suppose.
nbk2000 May 4th, 2004, 09:48 PM

I've heard of using directed energy to transmit sounds by stimulating the nerves of the (brain or ear, one of the two), thus
causing the "Voice of God" effect in their head.
Supposedly, the TFH (Tin Foil Hat :D) crowd has all the research references for this effect, so look for that.
Could be used for discrediting someone by making them appear crazed.
simply RED May 5th, 2004, 06:29 AM

http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/p/usp4,877,027.htm
true?
nbk2000 May 5th, 2004, 07:48 PM

It is a real patent, so that part is true, and the explanation in the patent matches with what I've read, so it's seems feasible.
nesler May 6th, 2004, 03:13 AM

Another (http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/mindnet/mn132.htm) interesting article ("Synthetic Telepathy") that I came upon
at that site.

For blinding weapons, you don't want to be using microwaves - they just don't work. Some of the frequencies (may apparently)
cause spots to appear, but nothing much, really.
The solution is to shift the frequency up a bit (like several orders of magnitude).
A pulsed UV laser will cause burns to the cornea surface, as all the short wavelength UV is absorbed, causing a cateract. The
laser need not be pulsed, but if you can find a CW UV laser that isn't room sized, what with the PSU and water cooling, I would
be suprized.
There is an old Scientific American "Amateur Scientist" article, dated from some time in the 60's which tells how to make one.
Sadly, I don't have a copy any more, but you might be able to hunt one down. It details the production of a single shot UV
Nitrogen laser, pumped by a flashlamp which it triggered via a spark gap. There is a modification to a cooled, continuously
running high pulse rate version, and it is easily a class IV laser. It is also rather small, considering.
A little less subtle, but more long term damaging, would be a pulsed laser anywhere in the range for eye transmission, which
goes from near-UV to fairly long wavelength IR. Power levels don't need to be very high, a short pulse will do, and the target
will not be able to tell where the shot was fired from. Bystanders will, if they were luckily looking in just the right direction.
However, this can be mitigated by the use of an IR laser, which would be invisible to the naked eye.
Higher powered diode lasers can be obtained, some of which (comms ones) run at long wavelengths for IR tranmission in fibre
optics.
The effects of a laser hit are described here:

----
CASE HISTORY NO. 1
This is an accident victim's viewpoint of his experience.
The necessity for safety precautions with high-power lasers was forcibly brought home to me last January when I was partially
blinded by a reflection from a relatively weak neodymium-yag laser beam. Retinal damage resulted from a 6-millijoule, 10-
nanosecond pulse of invisible 1064-nanometer radiation. I was not wearing protective goggles at the time, although they were
available in the laboratory. As any experienced laser researcher knows, goggles not only cause tunnel vision and become
fogged, they become very uncomfortable after several hours in the laboratory.
When the beam struck my eye I heard a distinct popping sound, caused by a laser-induced explosion at the back of my
eyeball. My vision was obscured almost immediately by streams of blood floating in the vitreous humor, and by what appeared
to be particulate matter suspended in the vitreous humor. It was like viewing the world through a round fishbowl full of glycerol
into which a quart of blood and a handful of black pepper have been partially mixed. There was local pain within a few minutes
of the accident, but it did not become excruciating. The most immediate response after such an accident is horror, As a
Vietnam War Veteran, I have seen terrible scenes of human carnage, but none affected me more than viewing the world
through my bloodfilled eyeball. In the aftermath of the accident I went into shock, as is typical in personal injury accidents.
As it turns out, my injury was severe but not nearly as bad as it might have been. I was not looking directly at the prism from
which the beam had reflected, so the retinal damage is not in the fovea. The beam struck my retina between the fovea and
the optic nerve, missing the optic nerve by about three millimeters. Had the focused beam struck the fovea, I should have
sustained a blind spot in the center of my field of visions. Had it struck the optic nerve, I probably would have lost sight of that
eye.
The beam did strike so close to the optic nerve, however, that it severed nerve-fiber bundles radiating from the optic nerve.
This has resulted in a crescent-shaped blind spot many times the size of the lesion. [...] The effect of the large blind area is
much like having a finger placed over one's filed of vision. Also, I still have numerous floating objects in the field of view of
my damaged eye, although the blood streamers have disappeared. These `floaters' are more a daily hindrance than the blind
areas, because the brain tries to integrate out the blind area when the undamaged eye is open. There is also recurrent pain in
the eye, especially when have been reading too long or when I get tired.
The moral of all this is to be careful and wear protective goggles when using high power lasers. The temporary discomfort is far
less than the permanent discomfort of eye damage. The type of reflected beam which injured me also is diffraction gratings,
and by all beamsplitters or polarizers used in optical chains.
The victim of Case History No. 1 explained that protective goggles were not being worn at the time, although they were
available in the laboratory. He also std, "As any experienced laser researcher knows, goggles not only cause tunnel vision and
become fogged, they become very uncomfortable after several hours in the laboratory." This statement substantiates the
author's contention that management of eye prction must include knowledge of all types of eyewear and not accept the myth
that heavy, uncomfortable goggles must be worn to ensure safety.
----
Goggles only work when you know the frequency you are expecting. Even the US military does not yet have an effective way to
prevent laser blinding weapons. The only known method is indirect viewing via a TV camera. Work continues towards an exotic
non-linearly responsive material which will automatically darken before the damage threshold is reached. It might be possible
to modify an electronic welders mask with LCD shutter, however, my tests have shown that they would be ineffective against a
high pulsed power single shot which passed the damage threshold in less than, say, 0.05 seconds. This is because they react
slowly compared to a laser pulse with a sharp rise time, whereas a welding flash has a far lower energy for a much longer time,
so you see the very beginning of the flash, before the screen darkens.
nbk2000 May 10th, 2004, 02:17 PM

"Frequency agile" is the term for multi-spectral laser weapons.
There's supposedly a patent for an mercury coated ablative mirror that, when exposed to a sufficiently intense pulse of energy
that's capable of blinding, vaporizes the coating off of the mirror, which absorbs and diffuses the beam enough to prevent
more than minor flash-blinding. I saw mention of it in a military PDF about these weapons.
Not ideal, of course, but better than hearing your eyeball go "POP!" and feeling it dribbling down your face. :eek:
DimmuJesus May 18th, 2004, 06:29 PM

The whole concept of a neural disruptor is intriguing. Using if as a weapon or to rob a bank has much potential. It would seem
that something as simple as an unassuming baseball cap lined with a thin sheet of copper would make a good defense.
What really interests me is the idea of using this technology as an enhancer, as Arthis mentioned. You could use it to
stimulate the brain to heighten your senses, reduce fear, or even trigger the brain to release controlled amounts of adrenaline
when needed. This could increase speed, strength, and alertness.

NBK, not quite. Frequency agile means that you can tune the laser output to a desired frequency. For example, a Ti:Sapphire
laser is frequency agile, as is an FEL (Free Electron Laser). They are not multi-spectral in that they output just one frequency at
a time, and are tuned by changing the laser cavity length, the optics or some other parameter. Argon ion is a multi-spectral
laser, as is the Helium-Neon. Both of these output multiple wavelengths, and so one of them can be tuned to output what you
want from the selection. Hence HeNe lasers in IR, red, orange, yellow and green. Normally the "big" one is the Krypton/Argon
ion "whitelight" gas mix, which, when used with wideband mirrors gives out what appears to the eye to be a white beam. It is
actually composed of several frequencies at the same time, and so is "multi-spectral".
This would make a simple coloured filter type of protection totally useless, as it would have to be like a welders mask!
That mercury mirror sounds quite neat.
DimmuJesus, there is an article in New Scientist from the other week about that.
I found this one, too.
---
The field workers
New Scientist vol 165 issue 2224 - 06 February 2000, page 36
Aim a magnet at a healthy brain, and the weirdest things happen. But could it finally tell us which bit does what, wonders Peter
Collins
CHARLES EPSTEIN, a neurologist from Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, was recently party to a remarkable experiment that
quite literally left his colleagues struggling for words. Epstein asked fellow researcher James Lah to start counting out loud,
while he held a small magnetic coil, roughly the size of a mobile phone, against Lah's forehead.
"One, two, three," said Lah, quite happily. But when Epstein flicked on the power to the coil, Lah rapidly lost the power of
speech. All that he could manage was "fo..., fo..., fo...". When Epstein cut the power again, Lah continued, "four, five, six," as
if nothing had happened.
"The sensation really was quite weird," says Lah. He claims that he could think about the words he wanted to say, but just
couldn't get them out. He says it was a frustrating feeling similar to when your arm or leg falls asleep, except that this time it
was the muscles of his face that failed to respond properly. Of course, Epstein's demonstration is more than just a neat party
trick. In fact, he had momentarily interrupted the workings of a part of Lah's brain, by stimulating it with a magnetic pulse.
The technique he used is called transcranial magnetic stimulation, or TMS. While scientists have been trying to alter brain
activity with magnetic and electrical fields for more than a century, the modern age of TMS research began only around 15
years ago. TMS was developed as a technique to stimulate the brain's motor circuits to test their integrity after damage to the
brain or spinal cord. But within the past ten years researchers have started using it to look at how the brain controls other
types of behaviour. TMS has also been tried out as a potential treatment for depression. So it is now making a big impression
not just on Lah's ability to count out loud, but in neuroscience labs all around the world.
It is the ability of TMS to change the activity in small parts of the brain for short periods of time that is so exciting cognitive
scientists. Depending on how it is used, TMS can slow down or even switch off parts of the brain temporarily. With a tweak to
the settings it can stimulate brain activity instead. There are even some tantalising clues that TMS could enhance learning
and perception. And the technique is giving researchers the first real proof that activity in particular parts of the brain gives
rise to pa rticular sensation s or behaviours a vital step in their ques t to understand how the brain works and how it gives rise
to the mind.
The basic idea behind TMS is simple. A short-lived electrical current in a figure-of-8 stimulating coil, produces an intense
magnetic field, about 200 times the strength of the average fridge magnet, within about one-thousandth of a second. This
rapid switch induces an electric field in a small region which can extend a couple of centimetres down from the surface of the
brain, making the neurons there fire abnormally. Depending on the firing patterns, this can boost activity, or effectively
scramble or jam the signal from that area of the brain. The field intensity, the shape of the stimulating coil and the rate of the
pulses (anything from a single pulse to 50 each second) determine how widespread and how intense the effect is.
Brief interruption
Whereas prompting the brain into action might seem an exciting prospect, remarkably neuroscientists are also keen to
interrupt the workings of the brain. This is because some of the most enlightening information about how the brain works has
come from patients with brain damage, caused by accidents, strokes or surgical removal of brain tumours. By studying these
patients, you can see what abilities are lost along with a particular brain region, and get a reasonable idea about where
memories are stored, which areas of the brain are important for vision, language, movement and so on. But such patients are
in fairly short supply, and no two patients are identical. Moreover, this type of brain damage is rarely confined to small and
functionally discrete areas of the brain, so it's not easy to pin down the functions of different brain locations very precisely.
Brain scanning techniques have vastly improved our knowledge of the functions of different brain regions, by showing which
areas are active at a particular time during a particular task. However, as Stephen Kosslyn, a psychologist at Harvard University
in Cambridge, Massachusetts, points out: "Neuroimaging techniques only establish a correlation. A given set of brain areas are
activated when someone performs a given task. But we all know that correlation does not show causation." Kosslyn points out
that TMS provides a stronger link between cause and effect, by showing exactly what happens when you interrupt brain activity
in a particular area. Researchers no longer have to wait for a patient to turn up in the clinic to verify their functional brain
maps. With TMS they can create "virtual patients".
Kosslyn and his colleagues showed how this could work last year. He has a long-standing interest in visual imagery, and was
keen to know whether creating a mental picture of an object uses the same brain circuitry as actually looking at it. Brain scans
and brain-damaged patients have shown that some areas of cortex at the back of the brain would normally be active during
both activities but which are vital?
Kosslyn used TMS to block activity in a small area of the visual cortex, called area 17, while he asked people to look at two
images and compare properties such as the relative lengths of stripes within the images. Stimulating area 17 with TMS
prevented people who were looking at the images from making rapid comparisons. Interestingly, when Kosslyn asked his
volunteers to compare the stripes in their mind's eye, again they had difficulty making the comparisons when area 17 was
stimulated. So area 17 seems to be crucial for both seeing and imagining.
Vincent Walsh, a Royal Society Research Fellow working at the Experimental Psychology Department at Oxford University, and
his colleagues, have also used TMS to study the visual system, but have concentrated on motion perception. Clinical and
experimental studies suggest that another visual area at the back of the brain, V5, is involved in motion processing. When
Walsh stimulated V5 using TMS he disrupted people's ability to spot a small moving X in an array of stationary Xs. But he also
found a more interesting effect. By blocking motion processing in V5, he could make it easier to spot a target defined by its
shape or colour, when motion of the target or the other stimuli in the array was irrelevant and distracting. "This may indicate
that some areas of the brain normally compete with each other for limited resources," says Walsh. "Disrupting the function in
one area may `free-up' processing in another area, leading to the improved performance."
No compensation
Similar effects are difficult to spot in patients with real brain injury, perhaps because over time the brain reorganises a little to
compensate for the damage. For Walsh this reveals the true value of TMS. "The key point here is that the `virtual lesions'
induced by TMS last only a few milliseconds, and this doesn't give the brain time to reorganise."
There are other tantalising signs that TMS could improve brain function. Alvaro Pascual-Leone and his colleagues from the
Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston have tested the effect of TMS on learning, in this case learning a simple
sequence of key presses guided by the position of an asterisk on a computer screen. In a series of trials the asterisk dances
across the screen and the subject taps out the corresponding sequence of key presses as quickly as possible. "We have known
for a long time that subjects get faster if, unbeknown to them, an ordered sequence is repeatedly presented," says Pascual-
Leone. But the researchers found that TMS could speed up reaction times even more. "What is novel and potentially very
exciting is that by stimulating the motor cortex at particular frequencies we were able to speed up the learning of this task,"
says Pascual-Leone.
And it's not just motor learning that could benefit from a burst of magnetic pulses. Ralph Topper from Aachen Technical
University in Germany and his colleagues seem to have enhanced peoples' ability to name objects appearing as line drawings
on a computer screen. Volunteers named the objects faster if they had been exposed to a pulse of TMS over the language
area known as Wernicke's area, on the left side of the brain, just before they saw each of the pictures.
To Pascual-Leone, these findings suggest that TMS might one day enhance standard rehabilitation techniques for stroke
cases and brain damage. TMS could potentially jump-start or "warm up" brain circuits to help them take over the function of
the d a m a g e d region. "The adult brain is turning out to be more flexible than we initially thoug htwe need to find ways to
encourage and control this flexibility," says Pascual-Leone. "TMS might just be such an approach."
It looks as though TMS might help lift some people out of their depression by reviving neural activity in underactive circuits
(New Scientist, 5 August 1995, p 24). Early tests showed promising improvements in the mood of a small number of patients.
And the most recent results suggest that TMS might help patients who have not responded to standard drug treatments. In a
large trial of TMS for treating depression, under way in Boston, patients with major depressive disorder have been given an
intensive course of TMS for 30 minutes every weekday for two weeks, then monitored for 3 months afterwards.
So far, the treatment has produced marked improvements in the standard clinical rating scales for depression in more than
half of the patients, afte r stimulation of the left prefrontal cortex an area at the front of the brain, which seems to be
underactive in depressed patients. This is a remarkable number considering the severity of their condition and their lack of
response to three different classes of antidepressant drugs. Many of these patients had been in hospital as a result of their
depression and some had attempted suicide in the past.
"The most striking finding is that the beneficial effects can last for up to six months after TMS," says Pascual-Leone. In some
patients, they have been able to keep symptoms at bay simply by giving a further course of TMS every three months,
avoiding all other forms of medication. Preliminary results from a brain scanning study suggest that this improvement may
actually represent a return to normal brain metabolism in this left prefrontal area, although Pascual-Leone and Walsh are not
yet convinced. Ray Dolan, a psychiatrist at the Functional Imaging Laboratory in London points out that the difficulty with TMS,
like electro-convulsive therapy (ECT), is that there is no clear biological mechanism to explain how it might provide an effective
treatment for depression. We just don't know how stimulating these brain areas affects mood. "Nobody seriously thinks that
the regions targeted by TMS in these studies are directly involved in mood regulation," says Dolan. And even if they were, how
do the benefits persist for a matter of months?
But perhaps not surprisingly, researchers around the world are sufficiently heartened by the potential of TMS to start trying it
out on other neuropsychiatric conditions such as obsessive-compulsive disorder, mania, post-traumatic stress disorder and
schizophrenia.
Walsh predicts that within 20 years, every psychology department will have its own TMS machine. At 20 000 a set, it is a
relatively cheap way of studying the brain, considering that a functional MRI brain scanner costs several million pounds. But
before this happens, some feel that we should pause and think. There are ethical and safety issues that need to be
considered. After all, TMS works by scrambling neural activity. Indeed, there were a handful of early reports of epileptic
seizures after TMS, but these were all in people who had a previous history or family history of epilepsy or were the result of
high intensity TMS used in the early development of the technique.
The TMS community has tackled this issue head-on by devising a set of guidelines for how TMS should be used. Walsh puts it
like this: "Obviously one has to be careful with any experimental technique, but the TMS community is very aware of this and
has published a set of ethical and safety guidelines that are designed to prevent any problems. They appear to work very well
and experiments are now always carried out at the lowest possible intensities and are rightly subject to local ethical committee
approval."
Pascual-Leone thinks we should also consider the problems associated with the possible recreational use of TMS. "Given the
non-invasive nature of this technique and its apparent safety, together with the possibility of effects on mood, there is a
potential for unauthorised research or even recreational use," he says. He notes that humans are prone to ridiculous
extremes. But the last thing we want is a Delgadoian vision of a psycho-civilised society, he says. Delgado stimulated the brain
to induce and block rage in experimental animals around 30 years ago and speculated wildly about how this might be used to
control society. "While there is no evidence that TMS can be used in any of these ways, society must ultimately have a stake in
how this technique is used."
Peter Collins
---
The genius machine
New Scientist vol 182 issue 2441 - 03 April 2004, page 30
No one is quite sure where creativity comes from, but that doesn't worry Allan Snyder. He says he knows how to turn it on at
the flick of a switch. Helen Phillips investigates
"TAKING RISKS," says Allan Snyder, "that's one of the main things that drives me." All the more amazing, then, that so many
people willingly don his specially designed headpiece so he can zap their brains with strong magnetic pulses in a bid to turn
them, temporarily, into autistic savants.
Snyder, director of Australia's Centre for the Mind, wouldn't put it quite like that. He'd say he was switching off higher brain
functions in an attempt to mimic certain symptoms of mental illness. But it boils down to the same thing. Snyder wanted to
see whether he could turn everyman into Rain Man.
Why, you might ask, would he want to do that? Well, he explains, perhaps if he gets the conditions just right, his magnetic
mind-zapper might act as a creativity machine, revealing an inner genius his subjects didn't even know they possessed.
Given Snyder's obvious eccentricity and self-confessed love of risk, you might be forgiven for running a mile rather than have
him mess with your mind. But he is perfectly serious. Take a moment to look over his numerous awards and fellowships, his
thriving research centres at the University of Sydney and the Australian National University in Canberra, not to mention his
record of attracting the likes of the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandela to his conferences, and you feel perhaps you ought to
hear him out. Once he starts explaining himself, it becomes hard to see where eccentricity ends and creative genius begins.
And maybe that's the point.
Madness has long been linked with creativity. Van Gogh, Edgar Allan Poe, Tchaikovsky and John Nash all trod a fine line
between the two. But it wasn't psychotic or manic genius that got Snyder thinking. It was autistic savants - severely impaired
people with one or more amazing mental skills, perhaps in drawing, music, sculpture or language. These talents are all the
more striking because they often occur in people whose intelligence is otherwise very limited.
Despite popular belief, autism is seldom linked with amazing skills. For every autistic savant there are maybe 10 more people
with autism who do not have a special skill. And roughly half of all savants are not autistic, but have some other form of
mental illness, brain damage or retardation. But the fact that savants exist at all gave Snyder a bright idea. "My research is
directed at the belief that you can switch on extraordinary skills by switching off part of the brain," he explains.
Psychologists have long been fascinated by savant skills. The orthodox view is that these "islands of genius" result from
obsessive use of what little mental capacity is spared by the illness. But Snyder disagrees. He thinks we all have amazing
skills, but they are concealed within our subconscious. Autism, he believes, causes some part of our brain's normal function to
be lost, sometimes allowing the savant skills to shine through.
The main reason for thinking savant skills are hidden within everyone is that they can appear spontaneously after someone
has suffered brain damage. One case in the literature, for example, documents how a child suddenly acquired spectacular
calendar -calculating skills and an extraordinary memory for days, dates and music following an injury to the left side of the
head at age 10. Another famous case is Alonzo Clemons, who developed a striking talent for animal sculpture following a
childhood head injury.
Savants are also found among people with a rare neurodegenerative condition called frontotemporal dementia. In this
disease, people - usually in their 50s - gradually lose their inhibitions and mental faculties as part of the brain beneath their
temples withers away. Bruce Miller, a neurologist at the University of California, Los Angeles, who is an expert on the disease,
has documented a handful of patients who developed artistic skills as their illness advanced. One patient with no prior interest
in art took up drawing at the age of 53, producing vivid childhood scenes from memory (Neurology, vol 51, p 978).
The art produced by these people is distinctly savant-like, says Snyder, in that it consists of realistic scenes or memories
rather than expressionistic or creative imagery. But what struck Snyder most was Miller's discovery that his patients all had
damage in the same area of the brain, the left frontotemporal lobe. Previous studies have suggested that the majority of
autistic savants have left-sided damage, and Miller himself has studied an autistic patient with damage in the left
frontotemporal lobe. What's more, the people who became savants after a head injury also had damage on the left side.
One person who became a calendar-calculating savant after a head injury is now having his brain scanned in an attempt to pin
down how his skills developed. But however it happened, the spontaneous and sudden appearance of remarkable mental
abilities means they cannot be the result of training or obsessive practice, thinks Snyder. The skills must have been there to
start with. "The people who possess these unusual skills do so because they have brain damage," he says. "Our theory is that
the brain damage made them access something that we all have."
But what might that be? Psychologists have long known that a large proportion of brain activity occurs without our knowledge,
and that only a small amount ever reaches our conscious awareness. Snyder's version of this model is that your unconscious
brain extracts all the raw sensory details about the world around you - the tones and pitches, lines, light and shadow. This
information is far more than we can deal with, he believes. But it is where we experience the world "as it really is".
Except most people never see this version of events. Our unconscious mind takes the flood of information and simplifies and
categorises it into manageable and useful packages. Where it sees lines and patterns of dark and shade, our conscious mind
might know it is a horse. We know that, because our brain has learned all about horses, has experienced what makes
something a horse rather than a dog or a table, and has formed a concept and a mental image. It's a very efficient way for
our minds to work. It allows us to spot things quickly, to name them and communicate the ideas. The mind also learns how
these things might behave, so that we can make predictions about the world and devise rules about how to act appropriately.
Snyder calls these various ways of extracting meaning from the raw data "mindsets".
In Snyder's view, what savants lack is mindsets. They experience only raw sensory information, and their precise drawings are
a reflection of that. The reason most people can't draw like that is because their mindsets get in the way. Once the brain
forms a concept, it inhibits the conscious mind from becoming aware of the details that created that concept in the first place.
So instead of drawing what you see, you draw what you know.
Snyder and his colleague John Mitchell first went public with this idea about five years ago, only to be met with widespread
scepticism (New Scientist, 9 October 1999, p 30). So they began trying to prove it, which is where the magnetic brain-zapper
comes in.
It sounds drastic, but using magnetic pulses to switch brain activity off is routinely used in neurology departments and
hospitals. Called transcranial magnetic stimulation, or TMS, it is used as a research tool to test for side effects of brain
surgery, and to work out the function of parts of the brain. The idea is simple: place a strong magnetic field on your scalp and
you halt electrical activity in the nearby part of your brain, just as placing a fridge magnet on a computer can stop the hard
drive from working (see Graphic).
Snyder and his colleagues decided to focus TMS on Miller's area - the left frontotemporal lobe - in the hope that temporary
and reversible damage to it would let savant skills shine through. Last year they tried it out, first on Snyder himself, then on
11 volunteers under experimental conditions. And late last year he published the initial results (Journal of Integrative
Neuroscience, vol 2, p 149).
First the downside. Only four of the 11 volunteers responded to TMS. This, however, isn't all that unusual, says Niels Birbaumer
from the Institute for Medical Psychology and Behavioural Neurobiology at the University of Tbingen in Germany. "In some
people you get an effect, in some not, and in any case the effect is not very strong and that's typical for TMS results," he
says. No one really knows why this is, but it probably has something to do with the fact that brain organisation varies widely
from person to person.
In the four people who responded, however, TMS had some notable effects, Snyder says. First he looked at the subjects'
drawing style before, during and after a 15-minute bout of TMS. He asked them to draw people from memory after briefly
showing them photos, and animals from their imagination. It's hard to say that TMS made the subjects better at drawing, but
it did seem to change their style (see Graphic). You might say the drawings were more natural. The effects lasted for 45
minutes or so, suggesting either that the TMS had some lingering effects, or that subjects learned a new way to do things.
Three of the four people who responded also reported altered states of consciousness, saying they became more aware of
detail. Other subjects said they felt slightly high.
Snyder also wanted a more objective test, so he asked his subjects to proofread phrases with a non-obvious mistake. Without
TMS everybody missed the errors, but with TMS two subjects were more likely to see them. One improved from zero to a 70
per cent success rate, the other from zero to 50 per cent. Snyder claims that this is evidence that TMS makes the subjects see
the world the way it really is. "Like autistic savants, they are much more literal," he says.
Snyder is also working on a set of tests for mathematical skills, looking at prime number generation and calendar-calculating
skills, and also musical skills.
Other researchers have results that back Snyder up. Psychologist Robyn Young and her colleagues at Flinders University in
Adelaide, South Australia, initially sceptical of Snyder's theory, looked at a wider range of skills under TMS. She asked
volunteers to recall lists of names, addresses and telephone numbers, reproduce pictures they had been shown for just a short
time, judge musical pitches as higher, lower or the same as a test pitch, and spot the primes in a long list of numbers. Five
out of her 17 subjects showed some improvements. These were not miraculous, she says, though one person, strikingly,
improved across the board. She hopes to have her findings accepted for publication soon.
If Snyder and his team are right and we all have hidden, savant-like skills, he suggests some interesting implications. He
predicts that TMS could grant us, at least temporarily, access to savant-like skills such as perfect pitch, improved memory or
the ability to learn a new language without an accent. Snyder's favourite idea, however, is that he could use a TMS machine as
a "thinking cap" to boost creativity.
This is quite a claim. Psychologists cannot agree what creativity is nor where it comes from, but the one thing they would all
agree on is that savant skills are anything but. They might look creative but are really just an elaborate form of copying, says
John Geake, who studies creativity at Oxford Brooks University in the UK. A savant pianist might reproduce an entire piece
having heard it only once, but would be unable to compose or improvise. A savant artist, meanwhile, might draw a building in
accurate detail from memory but the drawing would lack interpretation or originality.
Snyder doesn't dispute this. "It's clear that savant skills are pure mimicry," he says, "almost the opposite of creation." But he
argues that there is a link between savantism and creativity. Being creative, he explains, is all about linking seemingly
disparate ideas in a new way. Perhaps, then, a brief look at the world as a savant sees it, shorn of mindsets, would help you
make such links. Savants routinely operate without mindsets, so cannot use the experience creatively. But if a normal person
could dip in and out of the savant's world, it might be a different story.
It's an idea Snyder and his team have only just launched into the world of neuroscience (Journal of Integrative Neuroscience,
vol 3, p 19). And the initial responses are, perhaps not surprisingly, a little sceptical. Birbaumer, though generally agreeing
with Snyder that our subconscious brain has a lot in common with autistic savants, does not buy his theory about creativity.
"It's speculative and far-fetched," he says. It's quite a leap from showing glimmers of savant-like skills within us all to placing
them at the heart of a grand theory of creativity - especially as Snyder has not yet shown that TMS can deliver a creative
boost.
One major objection is that there are other theories about creativity, long developed in the psychological literature, which
Snyder is ignoring. Brain-imaging work, for example, has shown that the hippocampus, a memory structure deep in the brain,
is active at that moment of insight when people solve riddles (Hippocampus, vol 13, p 316). This is not a brain area that
Snyder has considered important, nor is it accessible to TMS because it lies too deep. What is more, Geake, along with Peter
Hansen and others at the University of Oxford, has suggested that creativity relies heavily on mindsets. They found that a
large working memory correlates with increased creativity. The more information you can juggle the more likely you are to
make creative connections.
But other established ideas seem to chime with Snyder's view. Jordon Peterson, a psychologist at the University of Toronto,
Ontario, says that creativity comes when people break out of their perceptual habits and see a new way of doing things.
Psychologists talk about us having "frames" or perceptions about the world, echoing Snyder's mindsets. Although Peterson has
different ideas to Snyder about how people form a new view, he agrees that creative people can switch between frames and
make new ones more readily.
And the well-established link between mental illness and creativity makes sense in Snyder's view of things too. Perhaps certain
mental illnesses are caused by inadvertent access to our normally subconscious view of the world, he suggests. Losing access
to your conceptual mind may cause many problems, but a side effect might be an insightful glimpse of the world as it really is.
There may be a multitude of existing theories about what makes a brain creative. But none of them has yet been proved.
Without testing, who can say what is at the heart of creativity: memory capacity, specialisations in brain areas, differences in
thinking style?
Not everyone will be convinced by Snyder's idea about what makes a mind creative. But it's brave and original, and he has
come up with something that can be tested. It might be completely crazy. But then again, it might just be the most amazingly
creative insight.
nbk2000 May 18th, 2004, 09:54 PM

I used the term "Multi-spectral" to indicate that it (whatever it is) is capable of more than one frequency of the spectrum
(visible or otherwise). I didn't specify the means, nor that there can be several emission spectra because I'm assuming that
people would understand it correctly the first time.
Obviously I was wrong.
You're trying to explain the concept of multi-spectral laser emission to a person who was studying about lasers back in the
days when all lasers where tubes, and there were no such things as diode lasers to make things simple.
Thank you for clearing my ignorance on the basics. :rolleyes:

nbk, not to clear up your confusion, then, but to clear other people's.
:o
nbk2000 May 20th, 2004, 08:02 PM

I encourage people to learn to fish on their own, rather than handing them the fish. It makes them self-sufficent. And self-
sufficient people live longer. ;)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Imprinting keys
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Flake2m September 2nd, 2003, 07:24 AM

I have an associate that wants a copy of a key. The problem is that the only way I am going to get hold of a key like this is to
make a crude copy of one, since locks will be changed if its reported stolen and the blanks aren't avaliable. I Have figured
that I can borrow the key to unlock a door and make an imprint of the key using something like clay, play dough or plasticine.
I could then make a proper mould of this key using say plaster of paris and finally making the key by pouring a metal such as
lead into the mould.
This methods seems to be sound to be me however, I would like some other members opinions and ideas on how I could
improve this. Also would making the key be illegal in Australia?
xyz September 2nd, 2003, 07:37 AM

There was a file on the FTP (Pity it's down at the moment) about using a 2 part wooden form with clay in it to make an imprint
of the key, which was then taken home, filled with molten lead, and then copied on a regular key copying machine (the lead is
too soft to function in the lock but it can still be copied from).
See if anyone has a copy that they could upload somewhere (I used to have a copy but I lost it along with several other files
when the archive that they were in became corrupted).
Rhadon September 2nd, 2003, 07:54 AM

The book you're talking about is called "CIA key casting manual" or something like that. It's a lot better than it sounds. The
bad news is that it requires you to use a special alloy which contains bismuth (in order to get a low melting point). Other
metals or alloys might also work, but it'll be harder to get good copies of your key.
As to what material may be best to make your imprint I'd say it's be clay, because you can use it directly for casting a key
when it has hardened and is free from water (which is important because otherwise it will break on heating). When you use
play dough, you will have to use at least two more steps which will lead to a significant loss in accuracy: Play dough is your
negative imprint, so if you do now use plaster of paris you've got a positive imprint and you'll have to make yet another
imprint of that to get the negative imprint which can then be used to cast your key. Additionally, plaster of paris might not be
the best choice because it tends to fragment when strongly heated. That's at least my experience, but it might be due to the
fact that my plaster was rather old.

If someone's interested in the key casting manual, I can send it to him now. Size is only about 200 kB, just post your email
address in this thread. I'm not gonna send to all of you, though, I don't have the time and will to do that more than once.
Therefore, the one who gets the book from me will have to send it to all other members who want to have it. This is
mandatory!
Credit goes to Wantsomfet for scanning, unfortunately it looks like he has left us :(.
IPN September 2nd, 2003, 10:15 AM

I can happily give the file a new home. :D
Meaning I can put it available for download.
http://koti.mbnet.fi/otto2000/KeyCasting.pdf

Sent! You can now edit your post and delete your email address, if you don't prepare for at least three offers of free viagra per
day :D... those spammers are getting really nasty these days!
Flake2m September 2nd, 2003, 02:53 PM

The blanks used for these locks are unavailable to the general public. To get hold of them I'd have to be a locksmith (which I
am not) and order them in.
Maybe I could add a material To the molten lead as its solidifying to harden it. I have a large bag of metal filing which I
(ironically enough) got from cleaning a key cutter. If I added some metal filings to the lead would it increase the hardness of
the key?
All I need is a key that is hard enough to open a lock. I will be passing the key onto the assoicate for a fee. What SWIM does
with it I dont care.
BTW: IIRC some Bismuth compounds are used in rat poison.
IPN September 2nd, 2003, 03:26 PM

You could add copper or zinc powder to the molten lead to make it harder.
Rhadon September 2nd, 2003, 03:27 PM

If I added some metal filings to the lead would it increase the hardness of the key?
I don't know if it was your intent to melt the metal filings, but if that's what you wanted to do you have to remember that this
will greatly increase the melting point of the alloy and therefore make it even harder to get a good key because you need a
very fluid mold and it may not solidify before it has flown down to the very bottom of your imprint.
If you wanted to use the filings the way they are, without melting them, I'm afraid they will either be too big so that your cast
gets inaccurate, or if they are fine your key could lack in stability. It would also be hard to get a homogenous mix of mold and
filings unless you use a large amount of filings, and if you use much the mold will most likely lack in fluidity.
Therefore I would just use a metal alloy without any "additives". Remember, the key cast you get will be quite sensitive and
will get inaccurate when used too often. But if you're careful when casting the key you can make another cast with your imprint.
IIRC some Bismuth compounds are used in rat poison.

You don't need to get bismuth out of rat poison :). It's used to grow bismuth "crystals". Do a search on the web, I'm sure
you'll find a place that sells it. It should cost roughly 40$ per kg.
I'm asking myself why you posted this in the water coolor! Your question does in no way have a primitive nature and would
excellently fit into Tools, Techniques, and Plans.
Chemical_burn September 2nd, 2003, 04:46 PM

Just a though but you could try meltnig down some bronze its easier to melt and would make very good keys. You may need
to get ahold of a good high temp torch but I believe they sell Map/oxy gass torches at Homedepot of less than 50 bucks
around 45 or so and they get plent hot.
If all else fails you could try some JB weld or some other kind of high strength epoxy as I think this would work.
Rhadon September 2nd, 2003, 07:24 PM

Just a though but you could try meltnig down some bronze its easier to melt and would make very good keys.
Bronze would indeed make a very good key, but I don't agree with you that it is easy to melt. You said that it was "easier to
melt". Easier than what? It has a melting point of more than at least 800 C which is very high, at least too high for this
purpose. Again, remember that the mold will come in contact with the comparably cold imprint and most likely harden before it
has filled it out completely.
kingspaz September 2nd, 2003, 07:40 PM

obviously this would depend on the sort of key, but would it not be far easier and cheaper to just take the shape of the key
with a mould sort of thing then hack away at a piece of sheet metal until the correct shape has been obtained?
nbk2000 September 2nd, 2003, 08:02 PM

Key casting is a big pain in the ass. You need the key, the mold, low-melting point alloy, a key cutting machine to duplicate
the key (what, you thought you could take a key casting to the locksmith and have HIM duplicate it? :rolleyes: ) and all the
rest of the bullshit.
So, I thought about the utility of a steel key dongle that you could have on you at all times, that could be used to decode the
key, and all you'd have to do is write down the info to allow you to have the key cut by code, which any locksmith can do. :)
The dongle (what a word! :p) would have the ability to decode most of the common high security lock keys, like dimple keys
(DOM, Kaba, etc), Tubular keys (ACE, Van, etc), and both regular pin keys (like deadbolts) and more complex types like
Medeco that use rotating pins.
I've attached a quick photoshop creation to illustrate. :)
Because it's a quick illustration, I left out the various other minutea that would be on the dongle, as well as the differing
scales. I also left out the pin rotation decoding notches since I haven't figured that part out yet.
Also, there's been at least one other thread that went into detail about this before. You may wish to UTFSE! ;)
Flake2m September 3rd, 2003, 05:26 AM

Well I managed to get an imprint of the key, using plasticine. The imprint isn't very good. If I can get a working copy of the
key then it might be able to unlock the school's chemical labs *evil grin*.
This imprint was a test I really need to use modelling clay in a specially designed holder. I can get hold of Pb (fishing sinkers)
and a gas stove should produce enough heat to melt it. As for the filings. The key might be harder if the mould was lined with
filing before it was poured. The theory is; that some of the filings will alloy with the lead increasing the tensile strength.
I have the photos of the crude key imprint; howver they are quite large (around 800k each). I will post them later after I am
reducing them in size, though this may reduce the quality.
irish September 3rd, 2003, 06:44 AM

Hi Flake2m,
another place to get Bismuth other than what Rhadon mentioned is your local gunshop, they don't all have it and it is
expensive but a ten KG bag may well last you a while :D .
I don't know what it is alloyed with (may be Tin for hardness) but it's mostly Bismuth and still has a very low melting point.
Also if you can get high Antimony Lead shot and mix it with your Lead it should improve tensile strength and hardness.
Obviously pure Antimony would be better, if you can get it add it about 6% w/w .
Sparky September 3rd, 2003, 06:35 PM

It is considerably softer than lead but if you could use solder to cast stuff out of. This would certainly be convenient. A roll of
solder isn't very expensive. There is even low melting point solder thought I'm guessing it would be even softer. Or you could
use that metal sold in kits for kids so that they can cast little metal things. I don't know anything about this metal though.
Just that I have seen advertisements for the toy which is used to melt the metal and cast it into different shapes.
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, but the lost wax process is a good proven process for creating duplicates of metal
items.
I just wanted to mention also that at most hardware stores they just have the key blanks hanging out in the open, easy to
reach if you wanted to take one.
Once a person has the imprint, couldn't they make a little jig to help file a piece of thickish sheet steel into the shape that
needed? I imagine that would be easier than casting a key and a person maybe wouldn't have to worry about the wards if they
make the sheet steel thin enough. This thinness would make it a little trickier to use than a normal key. One might have to
use a torque wrench to actually turn the hull if the key was too thin.
BTW Rec.pyrotechnics has a lot of discussion about hardening lead for use as milling media. Antimony is commonly added to
the lead to make it harder.
Rhadon September 3rd, 2003, 09:03 PM

Flake2m:
I can get hold of Pb (fishing sinkers)... Lead is a very good material to start from in my opinion since its melting point is quite
low. If you want to get it cheaper it might be worth a try to go to a garage and request lead there. It's used for balancing the
weight in wheels or something like that IIRC, at least they should have some and will give it to you for a small fee if not for
free.
As for the filings. The key might be harder if the mould was lined with filing before it was poured. I don't think it's a good idea
but as always the experiment might be the best way to find out. I'm looking forward to your results.
Sparky:
Once a person has the imprint, couldn't they make a little jig to help file a piece of thickish sheet steel into the shape that
needed? I don't know if I get you right, but using a sheet of metal is very very tricky because you'd have to get "curves" into it
in order for it to fit into the lock if you know what I mean. It is also very hard to accurately file a key by hand, you actually only
notice how hard it is when you try to do so.

2 part liquid epoxies would be excellent, I'd think. The CIA key manual was written back when they didn't have that sort of
thing available like we do now. With a mold, you can mix up a bit of the epoxy mix, pour the water-like solution into the mold,
and let it set.
The plastic "key" would be used to lift the pins in the lock to the shear line, but you'd want to use a tension wrench to turn the
cylinder, since I doubt the plastic would be strong enough to survive much use otherwise.
Also, another thing I've thought about, was why there isn't some tool to decode the pins once you've picked a lock open.
:confused:
You could remove the lock and dissassemble it to read the lock, but that'd be out of the question for a black bag job since it'd
take too much time. But, if you had something that could be slipped into the keyway that'd read how deeply the pins sit in the
plug, then you'd be able to reconstruct a key later on, since you'd know the pin heights, and wouldn't have to futz about with
re-picking the lock everytime. :)
tri-x September 4th, 2003, 07:52 AM

One commonly available low melting alloy is called Cerrobend. It is used by gunsmiths
to cast chambers of firearms for accurate Dimensional measurements. It is also used
in oncology units to cast custom shields for radiation therapy. Cerrobend would be the alloy
of choice for reproducing a key. As cast it is much harder than lead. Melts in hot water.
I don't remember exactly, but I believe the melting point is 75-80 c. It also has a low
shrinkage rate on solidification. If you don't use a release agent, it's a bitch to get
out of a rifle chamber. Here is a link where it can be purchased. Cerrobend (http://www.dgrdesigns.co.uk/page20.html)
As for the key blank, It is probably a restricted version of a blank that is commonly available.
study it carfully, then look at blanks by the same manufacturer. You will most likely find
one, where the longitudinal grooves can be modified with a dremel tool and a thin
cutoff wheel to enter the keyway of the lock. Once the blank goes in, that's half the battle.
lock the modified blank together with the casting using locking pliers(visegrip). Then use
small round and triangle files to cut down the modified blank.
It would be a good idea to visit a sporting goods shop that sells reloading supplies and
purchase a plastic dial caliper. they are only about $20, and suprisingly accurate.
then you can measure the depth of each cut while you are casting the key.
compare the depths of the cuts in the new key with your measurements.
If you are careful there is a good chance it will work on the first try.
bubbling_beaker September 10th, 2003, 06:14 AM

Hi,
The metal that some little toy cars are made of (eg match box, hotwheels ect.) melted quite easily from my BUTANE torch
(with flame tempera ture of 1300 c) within seconds an d I found the meta l has pretty reasonable hardness and is nt very
brittle so I think it Lead is much inferior in comparison to this but not all toy cars are made the same but a little bit of
e x p e rimentation wouldn t hurt so be creative and g ood lu ck ! :)
-bubbling_beaker-
blackninja October 6th, 2003, 05:09 PM

why not try devcon ?
it hardens almost like metal, can be drilled,turned and machined.
its not cheap but its good stuff,i use it to build up ports in engines.get the titanium one !
you can also cure it to be even harder.
also you could use Worth port putty, that is another metal substitute you could use.
they are both pourable and you could always reinforce the new key with strips of wire etc.
blackninja.
p.s wanted to pm this info but couldnt find the icon so sorry for bumping up an old thread :)
++++++++
There's no PM allowed for anyone other than staff.
Mick October 8th, 2003, 06:29 PM

why is everyone using lead?
why not just use aluminium? its easy enough to melt.

its hard enough to be used as a key too..several of the keys on my key ring are made from Al.
Sarevok October 9th, 2003, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by Mick
why is everyone using lead?
why not just use aluminium? its easy enough to melt.

It is not. Aluminium melts at 660C, Lead melts at 327,4C.
I don't know how much of you already tried to cast a key, but I think it as being nearly impossible, having already tried it.
Flake2m, I'm sure this would be illegal to do in any country, even in Australia where white schollgirls are eventually raped by
gangs of arabs (I still remember, one of the gang rapists said it is not a crime to fuck a white slut), but its not your problem,
since SWIY (Someone Who Isn't You :)) is going to do it. Shit, its only a crime if the pigs get you...
Chade October 9th, 2003, 02:47 AM

Aluminium melts at 660C, Lead melts at 327,4C.
Hmmm, Zinc melts at 419.58 degrees C. That'd be my first choice, and it should be harder too.
How I'd try it:

I'd try to do the whole casting in a furnace, to increase the liquidity of the metal during pouring, to allow a longer time when
the liquid metal is in the mould, and to avoid the shock of a molten metal hitting a cold mould. I'd also bake the mould
before use, to make sure all the water's gone.
Before the clay mould hardens, make a drain hole from the tip of the key, with a cocktail stick for the metal to flow out. If the
key is positioned so the tip (pointy bit) is pointing down, the drain channel should start at the tip, then curve up around the
side of the key until ot exits the mould at some point above the top of the key. This means if you keep pouring in molten
metal, it's not going to drain out the bottom, but will completely fill the mould and drain hole. When opened, the excess metal
is filed or ground down.
Set up the raw metal in something that'll take the heat, but that has a hole in the base, so the metal can drain through when
it melts. A flowerpot should do.
Use fire cement to fix the mould to the pot base, so that it seals the hole, and the only way the metal can leave the pot is by
flowing through the mould in through the inlet hole at the face of the key (the bit you grip), and out through the drain hole.
The mould should be affixed strongly enough that if you hold the flowerpot, the mould won't fall off.
Now the furnace. This can be as simple as a pit full of charcoal briquettes with a hairdryer blowing through a steel tube to really
ramp up the heat to melt even tougher metals than the ones we're using. Charcoal and an air supply will melt iron, so the fact
that you probably don't have a properly insulated furnace with a proper oxygen supply shouldn't (not that I've tried this) stop
us melting Zinc. I think the real problem is the possiblilty the tube could melt. There's loads of stuff about on making your
own furnace, both here and elsewhere, so I won't go into any detail about that.
You need to arrange the charcoal around the mould and pot in your pit. I'd support the pot with strong wire looped over some
sort of metal cross beam a few feet above the fire itself. Now you start the fire going, let the metal melt, and occasionally
twitch the wire to shake the mould, and remove any air bubbles. I can't see any reason you couldn't do this at higher
temperatures with better metals in theory. Also, ths allows you to just leave the fire to die down. Slower cooling means better
casting as the metal doesn't become brittle.
So, maybe it's a bit OTT, but as I'm building a heavier duty furnace anyway, that's how I'd try it. That's the idea. Needs
refinement. Feel free to rip it to pieces.

What I want to know is why everyone is doing it the hard way by using clay? :confused:
Clay shrinks, expands, cracks, yada yada...:(
Use cuttlebones instead. :)
Cheap, no mess, useable as is as a mold for casting, and you can carry it around in your pocket no problem.
The desirable properties of the method are the ease and rapidity with which a cast can be produced: A mold can easily be
made and filled in half an hour. The objects to be cast should not exceed the dimensions of 1/4 inch in thickness, 1-1/2
inches in width, and 3 inches in length (that's a key in a nutshell! :)). The patterns should be of metal, since they must be
subjected to pressure. Draft angles can be very slight, or they may be ignored altogether.
Cuttlebones can be procured from a pet shop or drug store for a few cents. The soft, calcareous face is easily crushed and
takes a very firm imprint of any object that is pressed into it. Difficulty of pressing thick patterns into the cuttlebone can be
overcome by repeatedly pressing the pattern into the bone, the crushed material being brushed out of the imprint after each
operation. The cuttlebone will stand quite high temperatures and is sufficiently porous to allow the air in the mold to escape.
Doesn't this sound so much more simplier than futzing about with clay? ;)
And, while lead melts easier, you can also melt aluminum quite readily using a propane torch and a small steel ladle to act as
a crucible for melting it by directing the flame of the torch through a hole in the side of a small clay plant pot to act as a
furnace. No need for charcoal.
Zinc would oxidize and vaporize into zinc oxide smoke if exposed to air at its melting point, so that's no good.
Dunkelmann October 9th, 2003, 06:37 AM

I successfully copied a key with epoxy Putty, it is a small cylinder of about 3cm diameter, the two components are seperated
and you just cut off a piece and knead it between your fingers until uniformly coloured. it hardens in about 20 minutes,
althoug i waited much longer.
I sprayed the key with PTFE anti-stick spray and pressed it halfway in the Putty. After the Putty hardened, i again sprayed the
whole thing with PTFE and pressed another layer of Putty on top of the first part, key still in place. dont forget to make some
small dents in the first half of the mold, they are needed to keep the second half in position. After the second putty hardened,
the two halfs were easily seperated and i had a rock-hard, very precise negative of my key.
Then again, i sprayed both halfs with PTFE, placed a small ball of Epoxy Putty between them and pressed wery hard. You need
to get the right ammount so the imprint ist filled out completely, but not too much, otherwise the two halfs will not touch each
other.
I ended up with a key made out of Epoxy Putty which i could use to open the lock after a little bit of filing, although it will
break very easily when turned, but just stick in, and turn the lock with a screwdriver. The key i copied was from a cheap
padlock,just to try it out, but i think epoxy putty is very well suited to make impints of any kind.
ErebusBat October 12th, 2003, 04:31 AM

D u n k e l m a n n what you d escribe soun ds like s omething I have recently found on the web. It is called Magic Sculp and is an
epoxy putty that you kneed together. It that what you used or was it another product? Here is the link that I have for the
Magic Sculp:
http://www.magicsculp.com/
Also you mentioned that the set product would not handle the pressure of actually turning the lock? Does anybody know what
the shear pressure would be on an average key?
I had thought about reinforcing the molded key with something so it could be used to actually turn the lock, however
everything I think of (e.g. small metal strips in the key) I think would weaken the rest of the mold seems how the key is so
thin. Any ideas about making a copy of a key with epoxy?
nbk2000 October 12th, 2003, 05:14 AM

Take some hair, run it through a coffee grinder till it's cut very short (<1mm), and mix some in with your putty. The hair will
act like rebar does for concrete, adding resistance to cracking, making it (hopefully) strong enough to survive turning a lock at
least a few times.
Speaking of key copying, I'm thinking about the utility of using digital cameras with macro functions (like the one I just
bought :p) to photograph a key, and print out a paper copy of it.
The image of the key would be converted into an outline, duplicated by printing the image onto a sheet of paper many times,
and stack/glue the outlines on top of each other, using two overlayed spots on the image to superimpose each sheet on top
of the next in exact alingment.
This would also allow you to duplicate the keyway curves because you'd simply omit the parts in the image of the layered stack
that correspond with the obstructions. :)
The thinner the paper, the better the "resolution" of your duplicate. Oh, and using a laser to cut the paper out to micron
tolerences would be very helpful too. ;)
Dunkelmann October 12th, 2003, 05:45 AM

The putty that i used was from Pattex
http://www.pattex.de/pattex/produkte/spezialisten/power-knete.htm
sure there are many other brands, this stuff is really very useful!
I think that with a little practising you can reinforce the key (maybe with glass fibre), so that it can actually be used to turn the
lock.
Dunkelmann October 12th, 2003, 06:24 PM

digital camera: Good idea!
You could use several high resolution images of a key or whetever to create a three dimensional model (there is software
available for this purpose), and use a small lab-scale CNC Milling Machine to produce your desired key or whatever with high
accuracy. Those machines are not that expensive, i used to work with one many years ago, manufacturing prototype printed
circuits out of copper plated epoxy.
check www.isel.de
I used to use a (bronze?) thermite to "cadweld" copper wire to ground rods, using a graphite mold. If you cannot get graphite,
perhaps charcoal or even cuttle bone will work, they work for molten silver. above the impression of the key, you make a cone
large enough to hold your thermite, use a little foil to keep the thermite powder from dropping into the mold. You will then
have an iron key.
The commerical thermite I used might burn at a lower temperature. I'm sure the bronze or brass alloy would be strong enough
for a key.
http://www.erico.com/erico_public/product/Cadweld.asp tells all about cadwelding.
Lil_Guppy October 20th, 2003, 12:05 AM

I have not tried this, but what about filling the mold with a resin (epoxy) mixed with a metal powder. This would give the
epoxy more strength. IIRC they use this technique for making lightweight replicas of things.

Silver is not that expensive, besides it can be reused. The casting of silver is well documented. Old American coins are 90%
silver, which melts at a lower temperature than sterling. MAPP/oxygen works. These can be had for slightly over bullion price,
around $5.00 a troy ounce (32 grams). Use borax for a flux. regular 20 mule team borax for laundry use is 99.9% borax.
Canada, Mexico, and most European nations used silver at one time in coins. Sterling jewelry can be bought at yard sales for
less than bullion if you look hard. Cuttlebone works well for silver and takes a good impression. A block of hardwood charcoal
works for a crucible, which can be affixed to the cuttlebone mold, so that when the silver is molten, you just tip it and the silver
flows into the mold. While still hot drop the key into dilute sulfuric to clean it. Tap it a few times will a wood or leather mallet to
harden it, or try to bend it by hand back and forth. If you do manage to get a bend in it, straighten it out will a mallet, and it
will be hard. Silver is harder than most people think, because most jewelry is very thin and cheaply made. My rule for working
silver; When bending, think STEEL, to protect from scratching, think SOFT COPPER.
LeftyScissorz February 14th, 2004, 02:12 AM

Lockmasters sells a kit for impressioning they call the "clam." Pictures are (hopefully) attached. It uses clay and a type of
metal they call "woods metal" and could probably be recreated from stuff at home. I used this kit to make an impression and
then poured a key. From this key (which sort of worked if you jiggled enough) a locksmith was able to identify the blank to use
and measure what to cut. The blank was an "H" blank from Best Access Systems, the kind that has "Duplication Prohibited"
stamped on it, but I didn't have any problems and he cut me one for $5. Of course, as luck would have it, one of the pins
were off, (he cut a 2798061 instead of a 2797061) so I went back with the clay impression and he figured out the adjustments
to make. I now have a working key, and know what the numbers of the pins are so I can go back and cut a bunch of keys if I
needed to. Success.
---------------------
I reduced the size of your images to almost one fifth of their original size, and that with hardly any loss in quality. Please do
that on your own in the future, I don't have the time to do it for everyone!
Rhadon
bigbang February 17th, 2004, 02:10 PM

Once, a long time ago... (12 years to be exact) I used to work for a retail chain office supply store that sold among other
things, photocopiers. The master key for the building used a standard shlage(sp) key so getting a blank was no problem. I
just photocopied the key one day, went to K-Mart and bought an uncut key blank (they cost the same if they are cut or not)
went home that night, cut out the photo copy with an exacto knife, taped it to the key blank and filed away with a small
triangle file. 15 min. later I had a master key to the store.
I know this would not help if you can't get the blank, but I thought it may be useful for some situations.

Why all the fuss about whether the epoxy copies will be strong enough to turn the lock? Surely you just embed (carefully
place) a couple or so thin steel pins into the mould before you press the "positive" epoxy into the mould. This will make it
easily strong enough to turn many times, useless the lock is really stiff.
Another way would be to fill the mould, then slide the pins in from the end before it cures.
If the lock is stiff, just oil it when you use the actual key in the lock. You will probably get some brownie points for that, too! It
would cover you for traces of oil or PTFE on the returned key, too. ;)
buzzd March 11th, 2004, 02:00 AM

You need the key, the mold, low-melting point alloy, a key cutting machine to duplicate the key (what, you thought you could
take a key casting to the locksmith and have HIM duplicate it? :rolleyes: ) and all the rest of the bullshit.
I've taken broken keys and cast keys to a local shop. They've always been very helpful. Just don't take them to some chain
store that hires minimum wage assholes. If you goto a local shop, they will be more customer-oriented, and the owner is
probably a jack-of-all-trades type person who would love your business.
WMD March 18th, 2004, 07:08 AM

If the keyway is not too wavy, you can draw the outlines of your key on a strip of plastic (mica door opening cards are very
good for this), cut it out and use it as a key with some jiggling motion while using a tension wrench to turn the lock. Tried and
true.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Black Powder Substitute
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BD13 S e p t e m b e r 5 th, 2003, 06:14 PM

Ok then, a few questions...1/2,
1.) W hat is the composition of Black Powder Su bstitute? i know is uslfer free but i want to know what else.
2.) And what can you add to it to m ake it burn fast/better? i alre ady said i know its sulfer free and i already added that and all
it did was turn it green and thats abount it....(g reat way to disguise a chemical...1/2)
3.) and if its finer will it burn faster.
thanks
:con fused: :D :rolleyes: ...1/2
zeocrash S e p t e m b e r 5 th, 2003, 06:47 PM

o o o h i f o n l y i h a d m o d powers (hint hint). ah well i'm just going to have to wait fo r one of the mods to find this post.
i guess while we wait for your executioun for your inability to read the rules i'll fire some lines at yo u and see what h a p p e n s
firstly what's with the 1/2s eve rywhere
secondly you really should read the rules, than use the search engine, search for BP, smokeless powder or suchlike, use your
im a g in a t io n.
s m a ller particle size will speed up the combustion process as there is a larger surface area for the sam e m a s s .
now all we ca n do is wait
edit: oh yeah i alm ost forgot, this post is in the wrong section to o
Chemical_burn S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2003, 01:50 AM

My god this post has been here all day without NBK finding it.
Dam n he m ust be busy or something.
Ohhh well it won't take long.
chemwarrior S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2003, 02:08 AM

*Gets the cam e r a r e a d y *
This is gonna be good! :D
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2003, 03:19 AM

Yeah, I was at work a ll day, though I'd h a v e t h o u g h t s o m e other m od would have caught it by now. :m a d :
Anyways, I saw the title, and it sounded familia r, so I didn't bother check ing it out earlier, and this is the re sult...a drivel post
lasting m o r e t h a n 5 m i n u t e s o n o u r b e l o v e d f o r u m !
W ell, I could get all worked up over this and doing some humiliation and m ocking prior to banning , but why expend the effo rt?
Stomping on ants is fun for th e first few m inutes, but after years of stepping on ants, it becomes tedious in the extreme. :(
Another day, another dollar. Another k3wL, ano ther ant.
Though I'm curious about the 1/2 thing, I'd m uch rather divide him in half (from the HED down :p), and send one h alf to
oblivion and the other half to Hell. :)
I'll also have to see what his other 3 posts were like. I'm sure they're REAL gems. ;)
zeocrash S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2003, 03:33 PM

i noticed ano ther m e m ber used the 1/2 thing a s well, at the end of one of his posts, but i cant rem e m ber which one
his previous 3 posts didn't seem anything special, but they were posted back in a pril may time
Wild Catmage S e p t e m b e r 1 5th, 2003, 06:54 PM

Maybe the 1/2 thing is like the 88 thing on the n9s (British Nazi Party) m e s s a g e b o a r d . W h e n I e n q u i r e d a b o u t i t , t h e y s a i d
that as H was the eighth letter of the alphabet it stood for HH or Heil Hitler. Dunno what A/B would mean though.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > fingerprints last
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mrnoface S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2003, 11:32 PM

i know this m a y s e e m like a lam e post.. i am aware tha t fingerprints which are on paper can last for up to weeks.. b ut how
about plastics and m etals? wa s curious to know how long they would last... it cant be forever?
-mnf thanks for not banning me on this one
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2003, 12:59 AM

D u d e . . . g r a m m er!
:rolleyes:
Use punctuation marks at the end of a sentence, like . or ! or ?, understand?
Capitalize the beginning of a sentence .
Use "I" when referring to yourself, not "i", which shows you're too lazy to even hit the shift key. :mad:
Show that you care about the Forum by using p roper gram mer, so the rest of the world doesn't think we're a bunch of illiterate
'tards who ca n't even use our own lang uage properly. ;)
It's hard to take someone seriously when their posts look like a 3rd grader typed it. :p
Y o u ' r e t h e s e c o n d p e r s o n i n a m inute that I've had to tell this.
Anyways, it is true that fingerprints can last for m any de c a d e s o n s o m e surfaces. But, there are differences in fingerprints.
Childrens fingerprints tend to disappear because the oils secreted from their fingers are com p o s e d of m ore volatile factions
than those of adults, which form perm a n e n t r e s i d u e s .
Koviack S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2003, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by nbk2000
Anyways, it is true that fingerprints can last for m any de c a d e s o n s o m e surfaces. But, there are differences in fingerprints.
Childrens fingerprints tend to disappear because the oils secreted from their fingers are com p o s e d of m ore volatile factions
than those of adults, which form perm a n e n t r e s i d u e s .
Does this m ean you could say, wash your hands in something that would eat away the oil, just to be on the safe sid e if you left
prints som ewhere?
Cyclonite S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2003, 10:32 AM

Hm m m ...Well if you left prints washing your hands in a solvent afterwards would be pointless...If you m e n t b e f o r e I g u e s s
your planning on leaving prints or you would wear glove s ...No wait, you don t h a v e t o wear gloves if you s o a k y o u r h a n d s i n
90% H2SO 4 for 30 min before you plan on leaving prints......
vulture S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2003, 11:15 AM

Not only would it (product to rem ove finger grease) severely deh ydrate your skin, resulting in poor handling, but it would also
irritate thereby increasing the production of grease and other fluids.
Anthony S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2003, 03:00 PM

I h a v e a q u e stion related to this topci that I've been m e a n i n g t o a s k f o r s o m e t i m e .
The scenario is steralising materials/supplies that you intend to cache.
S o m e item s s u c h a s w e a p o n s a r e t o o m uch of a legal liability to have in/around your hom e, but you want easy acce s s t o t h e m
i f n e e d b e , s o y o u c a c h e t h e m . But there's always a risk of them being discovered, they could end up with the police who m ight
decide they're serious enough to try and find out who put them there.
S a y o u r e x a m p l e i s a r e g u l a r a u t o h a n dgun, how can we ensure that fingerprints are remo ved from it?
W ould scrubbing it (old toothbrush would be ha ndy) with a detergent such as washing up liquid suffice to rem o v e a n y prints?
I imagine that removing DNA sam ples such as fair and skin fragm ents would be more difficult, could it be done with dam a g i n g
the item ? E.g solvents and corrosives would dam a g e t h e g u n , i m mersion in water would cause corrosion in storage.
zaibatsu S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2003, 05:32 PM

If I was planning to rem ove all traces on a gun, I'd look at the degreasing processes used prior to anodising or bluing. If have
t o r e m o v e a l l t h e o i l s b e f o r e y o u c a n b l u e o r a n o d i s e s o m e t h i n g , then th at'll obviously remove any fingerprints. Put it in an
oven at a low tem perature for a while to dry it out. After that you'll need to oil it u p quickly, with thick grease, possibly
s o m ething like the m oly grease used in lubricating airgun cylinders, also available in bulk from car shops.
mrnoface S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2003, 09:01 PM

I believe coa ting the hardware with WD-40 would be sufficient.
- m nf
Agent Blak S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2003, 03:25 AM
oils from you skin can cause oxidation on the metal; basically etches your print into the steel. This wouldn't be true on
Stainless(ie. 400 series steel) but, definitely would be true on higher carbon steel and alloys(which m o s t k n i v e s a n d g u n s a r e ) .
zaibatsu S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2003, 07:38 AM

I don't think WD-40 is a good idea, it does displace water (hence the W D bit) but I believe it will evaporate over time and can
" g u m u p " a m e c h a n i s m . W hat I think is the best way is to use a really thick grease, like the cosm oline I believe lots of surp lus
rifles are stored in. They com e out of all the grease with nice bores etc, so it must work to some extent.
vulture S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2003, 08:11 AM

After I've treated the barrel of m y airgun with W D-40 I can spot hundreds of my fingerprin ts.
It seems to increase their visibility and if you touch the barrel, the prints tends to be much "deeper".
zippoxiv S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2003, 08:36 PM

Military surplus rifles are store d in extrm ely heavyweight grease called co sm o l i n e a s z a i b a t s u s a i d . A n y o n e w h o h a s p u r c h a s e d
such a rifle k nows how much of a bitch it is to rem ove from every crack and crevice of a rifle, but it does do the job of
preserving the gun. C osmoline can be substituted with any heavyweight grease such as axle grease for any long term storage
of a firearm (long term would be over a year). It prim arily helps to protect the m etal surfa ce from m oisture and other corrosion
e l e m e n t s , a n d m ust be com p l e t e l y r e m o v e d b e f o r e y o u go about firing the firearm again. A lightweight gun oil or W D - 4 0 d o e s
the trick for between trips to the range, but something long term e n o u g h to be called a ca che would call for a kind coating of
cosmoline.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > C loning m o b i l e p h o n e s
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Flake2m S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2003, 01:27 AM

I was reading an article in the newspaper yesterday. The article stated that a com p l e x t r a c k i n g d e v i c e h a d b e e n f o u n d u n d e r
t h e C - s e r i e s M e r c e d e s o f a h i g h p r o f i l e b u s i n e s s a n a l y s t ( J a m e s M i d d l e w e e k ) a n d t h a t s o m e broking firm s are running scared
b e c a u s e o f h igh-tech gagetry that is being used by rivals to gain the other hand. This includes cloning mob i l e p h o n e s f r o m t h e
executives of a competing company. :eek:
W hat really caught my attention was how readily avalible the technology was. W hile this article is of course going to be biase d
and exagerated, this lifted an eyebrow;
"The software has been freely available for atleast 2 years [to clone m o b i l e p h o n e s ] a n d c a n b e b o u g h t o v e r t h e i n t e r n e t f o r
a r o u n d 9 0 p o u n d s " . T h a t a b o u t A U $ 2 5 0. :cool:
If th is article is correct on how easy it is to get hold of the gear required to clone a mobile phone. Then some mem bers of this
forum would be in for some fun. IIRC cloning a m obile isn't illeg al in Australia yet so you could do a fair bit of dam a g e / m a k e a
fair bit of m oney from cloning them . Since Australia use s a GSM network like europe, the software should be compatable.
megalomania S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2003, 03:19 PM

If it's just software needed, why isn't som ething like that available for free, or is there some hardware com p o n e n t i n v o l v e d ?
S o m e links to cloning websites, or links to the people selling the software would be nice.
Heh, at the very least people could clone cell phones to give the ir own fam ily extra lines since they charge for the dam n thin gs.
Naturally having a cloned cell phone of som eone elses account would be much cheaper.
I wonder what the security im plications of cloned phones are? If a criminal used o n l y c l o n e d p h o n e s h e s h o u l d b e a b l e t o
completly avoid the h assle of buying a nd throwing away a disposable phone. W ould this also m a k e h i s l e s s t r a c k a b l e i f h e
recloned his phone to a different num ber every tim e h e u s e d i t ? F o r e x a m p l e t h e p h o n e w o u l d h a v e t o b e u s e d t o m a k e
outgoing calls only, the crim y could switch his num ber every tim e. If the feds were m onitering calls (phone logs) the y wouldn 't
s e e t h e s a m e n u m b e r all the tim e, but a bunch of different num bers. They would likely not connect the different calls.
probity S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2003, 06:17 PM

C l o n i n g c e l l p h o n e s u sed to be really easy.. I don't know how it works now or if its becom e m ore complex. Basically you'd bu y a
phone that was easily program m able ie: oki 900 ( http://www.geocities.com /R ese archTriangle/Thinktank/3978/p55.htm ) a n d
s o m e program m ing hardware, which was usually just a sim ple ca ble and adapter (the software is free and all over the internet).
The only thing you really needed to clone a cell phone is the ESN/MIN pair which used to b e (still is?) written on the phone
s o m ewhere. People a lso used to snatch them right out of the airwaves. Kevin Mitnick, a fa m o u s h a c k e r w h o e l u d e d t h e f e d s f o r
q u i t e s o m e t i m e , c o n n e c t e d t o t h e i n t e r n e t a n d h a c k e d t h r o u g h c l o n e d c e l l p h o n e s m aking it rather difficult to locate him . He
got m ost of his by ha cking into databases containing to ns of ESN/MIN pa irs. I also recall certain key combinations which would
trigger certain cell phones into test mo de. This was useful in that you could program the ESN etc right there using th e p h o n e
without any additional hardware. Sprint phones can't be cloned b ecause they use an entirely different network. Plenty of
information is out regarding cloning cell phones, while it m ay be outdated its worth a look into.
Nihilist S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2003, 10:40 PM

C l o n i n g c e l l p h o n e s m ay have been easy a few years ago, but it m ost cetainly is not now. However, do not lose hope, as it is
still possible with som e fairly high-tech (you can build it yourself, but it's a bit of a challenged) m aterials. For insturctions and
m ore details I will refer you to http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/59/25216.htm l you can also find m uch m ore detail by
doin g a sim p l e g o o g l e s e a r c h o n s o m e of the term s in that article.
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2003, 11:31 PM

Even cloned phones can be traced and identifie d. Transm itter "fingerprinting" has been around since WW I I a n d h a s b e e n
a u t o m a t e d b y the cellular com panies to identify cloned phones, as well a s provide LE with a m eans of identifying ph o n e s u s e d
by suspects that get them re-chipped in an attem pt to avoid tracing.
So, unless you can get your m obile to vary it's transm itting and signal processing patterns at random , you'd be better of using
p r e - p a i d p h o nes and throwing them away to evade detection, rather than using cloned phones.
Flake2m S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2003, 01:41 AM

I did read on a website som e w h e r e t h a t o n e o f t h e c a r t e l s c l o n e d s o m e m o b i l e p h o n e s b e longing to the DEA. The DEA didn't
realise this u ntil it got a m assive phone bill :p .
The ESM/MIN m ay still be on the back og the phone. My m obile has two num bers on the back. One which is labled "code" is a
seven digit p h o n e n u m b e r . T h e s e c o n d i s a s e v e n t e e n d i g i t n u m b e r t h a t i s s o m e t h i n g l i k e ; x x x x x x / x x / x x x x x x / x
I k n o w o n e o f t h e s e n u m bers is an ESN because an aquaitance used the number to prove that a m obile wa s his after a thief
stole it (what he did to the guy is another story :rolleyes: )
Also on the back of m y phone there seem to be an input for some sort of plug th e input looks like this:
/00/
/00/
This Input is on m y N o k i a p h o n e . S o m e o n e t h a t k n o w s m o r e a b o u t m o b i l e s o r a n e n g i n e e r m ight have a m ore of a clue on

what its for.
grandyOse S e p t e m b e r 3 0th, 2003, 01:34 AM

Here's the way it was ten years ago; The ESN was burned into a RO M a n d w a s s p e c i f i c t o t h e p h o n e . T h e M S N ( p h o n e n u m b e r)
is assigned by the cellular com pany and progra m m ed into the telephone switch and mobile phone. If you could find out
s o m eone's ESN and MSN, then you could take another phone ap art and hardware the ESN in place of the ROM, or if you were
really handy, you could burn a new ROM. Some folks made a "tumbling ESN" device to replace the ROM. Since the ROM was
also used for other phone functions, it could becom e quite a task. Once the ESN is installed, it's only a m atter of programm ing
the correct in fo (including MSN) into the phone.
And, yes, with the right equipment you could re ad the ESN and MSN off the air.
I know that the cellular technology has changed a lot in the last ten years, so I doubt that it has becom e any easier. Especially
considering that stopping this kind of "theft of service" was top priority.
NoltaiR S e p t e m b e r 3 0th, 2003, 02:48 AM

And seeing as how I sell and program phones everyday...
I h a v e h e a r d that at one point in tim e, cloning the ESN (electronic serial num ber for those who haven't picked up on it yet.. and
it is most always listed on a sticker underneath the battery) was easy because it contained within a single chip that was set to
that number in the fa ctory. So a l l t h a t n e e d b e d o n e i s t a k e a n o ther chip from the same factory and m o d e l a n d c h a n g e t h e
n u m ber. W ell obviously I don't know how exactly to do it but I should figure that once you have done it once, you can do it an
infin ite am ount of tim es. I know when I am program ming a phone that is straight from the factory, it asks for the phone
n u m ber. So this is ob viously interchangeable m eaning that the ESN is the only thing to worry about. But everytim e a wireless
p h o n e a t t e m pts to make a connection, it gives its ESN and phon e n u m ber. Well anyone with experience with selling phones
c a n c h a n g e o n e p h o n e to 'mock' the programm e d n u m ber of an other phone. I know that I can do this (which is a good
practical joke if I were to get a hold of someones phone and I wanted to change their pho n e n u m ber to m a k e t h e i r p h o n e
unusable).
But anyways I am drunk but a m aware that I am going nowhere with this, but I should think that you wouldn't need any
hardware to change the ESN of a phone. And changing the program med phone number is especially easy with Sprint.....
p.s. I have h eard that Nokia is a Finnish com pany.. is that true?
Guerilla October 11th , 2 0 0 3 , 0 6 : 3 2 P M

Flake, the plug your referring is the place where you can attach the data cable and connect the phone to a pc or other device..
As little as I know, phone com p a n i e s h a v e a l s o built an encryption code for every new cell phone, so one is unlikely to succeed
to clone a phone by using mere ESM/MIN codes..it could work with the older m odels but who uses them anyway...
and yeah, its Finnish.
ErebusBat October 12th , 2 0 0 3 , 0 9 : 4 7 P M

T h e r e a l s o e x i s t s a p r o b l e m in cloning phones for espio n a g e p u r p o s e s . C e l l u l a r c o m p a n i e s h a v e s e n t l o t s o f $ $ $ $ i n m o b i l e
cloning detection technology. Som e of this is exactly what NBK had mentioned in transm itter fingerprinting. A lot of it also is
s o m e com m o n s e n s e p r o g r a m m ed at the cellular switches . I f your m obile ESN had placed a (legitim a t e ) call 5 m i n s a g o f r o m
poin t A and then som e o n e u s i n g a c l o n e d p h o n e a t t e m p t s t o p l a c e a c a l l f r o m po int B and that there is no physical way that
you could have traveled that distance then the switch will flag the ESN as a bandit and it will not validate any calls.
Obviously this will not catch all cloning issues but unless you plan on following the person whose phone you cloned around (or
they use their phone very little) then m odern cloning is not that reliable.
Now if you just want to eavesd rop then all you would need to do is build a receiver that decodes the ESN broadcast along with
the cellular p roviders encoding (e.g. Verizon in the US u ses CDMA). I am sure that there is som e LE only equipm ent that will do
just that.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Defeating Passive Infrared
Motion Detectors using Soap Bubbles
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View Full Version : Defeating Passive Infrared Motion Detectors using Soap Bubbles

I recently had the opportunity to test a theory I've had bouncing around in my noggin' for some time.
Thermal energy (heat) cannot be seen by PIR or TI through water. I've seen pictures of people in pools as viewed through TI
and they are invisible below water level. I'll skip the technical explaination as to why, and just leave it at the fact that it is a
fact. :)
Now, how to exploit this?
Well, I've got a PIR installed in my house, courtesy of the previous owner who had that emblem of middle-class security, ADT.
The thing works pretty good as it will detect an arm waved across an open doorway from more than 20 feet away. So it's
adequate for testing out my theory.
The theory is this:
Water blocks IR energy. Bubbles (yes, bubbles) are composed of mainly water, with a little soap and air added in. Bubbles
stay where you put them, and they can float up or sink down, as needed.
Having previously experimented with polymeric bubbles (see thread in the NBC section by me), I thought that bubbles would
make a good screen against detection by a PIR by blocking its field of view and diffusing/absorbing any IR energy that may
be detectable by it.
So....I whipped up some bubbles using a straw and some water with dishwashing soap in it and slathered over the PIR. After
going off (used warm water :o), it reset, and thereafter wouldn't go off from waving my hand 3" from it. :)
The bubbles were dense enough that I couldn't see anything but the red light of the PIR through it, and in a layer about 1"
thick over the sensor.
When I tried the experiment again, using straw blown bubbles, the PIR would go off as usual. This time, the bubbles were
large enough that I could see the sensor through a 3" thick layer of them.
So, my theory is that the bubbles are only as effective in obscuring the IR energy as they are in obsuring the vision of the
observer. If you can see the PIR clearly, it can see you (or, rather, your heat) just as clearly. If it's invisible under a layer of
foamy bubbles, so are you. :D
Now, since PIR's are usually located on the ceilings and far end of hallways, the problem becomes one of getting the foam
over the sensors without being detected in the first place.
To reach the ceiling mounted sensors from ground level, you would use a lighter-than-air gas such as helium or ammonia,
from a cooled (below ambient) cylinder.
To reach the same sensors mounted on a wall, only through a hole drilled through the roof, you may wish to use CO2, which
will be self-cooling. If the sensor is one the ceiling, and you're coming in through the roof, you'll still need the light gases.
For reaching sensors at the end of hallways, the idea that I had was to use a reel of stiff (and cold) plastic strip (think
measuring tape sort) that you would unreel along the floor till it's underneath the sensor. Attached to the strip are two hoses,
one for gas and the other foam solution, which generates the foam underneath the sensor which rises up and smothers it.
Other ideas, though much more exotic, would be to construct a kind of "gun" that would use a vortex ring of air to carry a blob
of foam to the sensor, or a kind of "flamethrower" that would use high-pressure gas to blow a dense stream of foam onto the
sensor.
Once covered, you are free to move about.
Or you could build a "shield wall" against the PIR (not giant sand worms! :p) by having a high volume-low pressure fan
pushing air through a fine mesh screen that has bubble solution sprayed on it, and directing the foam to seal open doorways
and other opening which you would have to pass on your way in/out that are within view of a PIR, but either not reachable or
that are too risky to tamper with.
One really far out idea is to make a "tunnel" out of fine nylon mesh in the form of a tube, and saturate it with the bubble mix.
It would be extended by inflating the tube using the fan, which would not only slowly unroll it, but also cover it with bubbles.
Once the tube was fully inflated and extended, a person could roll down the tube by lying on a skateboard and pulling
themselves through. If nothing else this'd make for an interesting scene in some hi-tech caper movie! :D
I haven't had the chance to test the polymeric foam out yet, so I don't know if it would work as well as water-based foams, but
if it does then that'd be the one to use. Polymeric foam would last for hours, and not be affected by humidity and dust like
water-based foam is. It would stick instantly to whatever it touched, and wouldn't risk any water dripping into the sensor,
causing a fault that could set off the alarm.
Then the problem becomes one of how do you remove the foam so as not to leave any trace of how you tricked out the PIR?
See, if the jeweler or bank opened up in the morning and found that they'd been cleared out, and the PIR's covered with
foam, how long would it take for the PIR manufacturers to modify the design to prevent it from working in the future? Or,
worse yet, sending out notices and work-arounds to existing customers, ruining a good thing in short order? :(
Water based foam would turn back into soap water in a few minutes, but that would limit your time unless you constantly kept
refreshing the foam, and who wants to be bothered with that while you're looting and pillaging? ;) It'd also leave annoying
little puddles that could give the game away.
The polymeric foam turns into a dry and nearly invisible film when it decomposes, which would be good, but it would be better
if it turned into a non-adhering powder that would float off like dust when it dried out, and it'd have to do it reliably within a few
hours.
Suggestions?

I suspect the dense foam worked more because of the scattering effect than IR absorbtion. Bubble walls are so thin I'd have
thought there would be little attenuation of IR. (try blowing a coloured bubble).
For those who don't know, a PIR sensor is usually split into two or four sections, with multiple lenses in front, creating multiple
images spread across the sensitive sections. The output from each section depends on the total IR falling on it. The
electronics detects movement by looking for changes in the outputs of each section. If you can completely blur the images
then all the sections will show the same output all the time and the sensor will not trigger - I think this is what happened with
the foam, along with some IR blocking as well.
This leads to other possible defeat mechanisms :

1/ Flood the sensor with IR, from a filtered lamp.
2/ Fill the area with a water fog - an ultrasonic fogger might do the trick.
These might be best used as a way to get to the sensor to apply the foam.

Foam acts both as a lens and as a diffuser. It takes light from any angle, and splits it into it component colors. That's why
bubbles are rainbow colored. :)
One bubble by itself isn't going to do shit, but when you have thousands of them, that's when it becomes effective, because
the path between the heat source (you) and the PIR goes from a straight line to many hundreds of different paths, causing
the IR energy to be both aborbed (by the water) and attenuated (by following many paths).
PIR's detect the variation of the IR energy in the field of view by comparing it against two sensors, each of which recieves part
of the view through a frensel lens which divvies it up into multple segments.
If the rise in IR energy is even through the scene (ambient heating), then each sensor recieves the same amount of energy,
thus there's no difference between the two, so no alarm.
If an intruder is moving around, then each sensor recieves a different amount of IR energy, as the intruders passes through
the various "lanes" in the PIR's view created by the frensel, thus creating a difference that sets of the alarm.
Since the change in temperature has to be fairly rapid and different from the background (to prevent hypersensitivity that'd
set it off all the time), even a small degree of attenuation would be sufficient to prevent the alarm from sounding.
Also, because the bubbles breaks your heat image into a thousand different spots, and coming from all directions, this levels
out your heat signature from a hot spot to a fuzzy "glow" (like frosted glass) that is seen equally by both halves of the sensor.
:)
Of course, as the water evaporates, it also cools the bubbles. :)
The problem, as I see it, isn't blocking the PIR from seeing your body heat (the foam takes care of that), but getting the
foam onto the PIR without setting it off in the first place. Once that problem is solved, the rest falls right into place...in your
pockets! ;)
I don't see how you could fill up a space like (for instance) Fries Electronics with ultrasonically created fog. The volume is huge,
ultrasound very inefficient, and the time long.
An IR screening smoke is possible, but that'd set off the fire alarm, which is just as bad.
john_smith September 17th, 2003, 11:17 AM

This one isn't about bubbles, but maybe it'll fit here anyway...What about aiming a powerful filtered spotlight at the PIR and
using some ramp generator type circuit to SLOWLY crank up its voltage from zero to 12/110/whatever?
Al Koholic September 17th, 2003, 08:00 PM

Getting bubbles to the target will indeed be very difficult. I am wildly speculating here but you might be able to whip up some
sort of binary liquid stream in a water pistol. The agents could be something like vinegar and sodium bicarbonate solution for
example (there are probably better things). When spraying, the stream can be directed like a super-soaker only when the
liquid hits the target, there will be a foaming reaction creating massive amounts of small bubbles (exactly what you would want
for this).
In fact, what would be even better is the same type of solution PLUS an surfactant/oil mixture. A ternary mixture so to speak.
Three tanks, all pressurized and on the same trigger, having hoses leading to the main ejection tube and hence mixing,
emulsifying/reacting, and then being ejected towards the target would prove a quite usable bubble covering. The emulsified
mixture will stick to the detector much better than the simple water based mixture....the bubbles will last longer too!
All you have to do is aim the thing with maybe a mirror or something so you dont stick too much hand out.
I was also thinking...

I am under the impression that there are now blue lasers (pen lasers) available that have power output ratings of about 0.1
watts. Perhaps it was even up to 1 watt I can't remember. Either way, I'm guessing that the detectors do not have a very high
damage threshold and could very well be damaged permanently by exposure to laser light of this intensity. If the wavelength
of the laser was not detectable (or just wasn't important) you might not set the alarm off while still causing damage. That
would definetly take research to confirm however. Detector heads and optical coatings have a very wide variety of performance
characteristics these days...

After doing further research, I found that high-end PIRs (http://www.sdmmag.com/content/newthisweek/2003/02/
MotionDetectors.htm) have a feature known as "anti-masking", which means that the alarm will sound if the PIR lenses are
blocked.
But, the means which this is accomplished could actually prove to be a boon, rather than a bane. :)
See, these PIR's use an active IR system that directs a beam of IR light either:
A) Into an interior sensor through the lens from an exteriorly mounted LED
OR
B) Out through the lens from an interior LED
A works works there is something placed over the sensor by blocking the beam. B works by detecting the reflection of the IR
light off of the obscuring object.
Since both A and B are actively emitting IR light, it would be easy to from beyond their detection range using NVD. :)
Plus, I don't think foam would affect the anti-masking anyways. At the very short range between the IR LED and the interior
sensor (A) the light wouldn't be obscured to any great degree by the foam. While it may be diffused a bit, it'll still be visible,
hopefully within the sensors tolerance range.
With B, foam acts like a sponge, absorbing light without reflecting much back. Plus, any sensors based on detecting a sudden
change from ambient wouldn't be triggered by the foam, since the amount of light coming in will remain almost the same, just
being scattered.
A problem with the better PIR's is the usually combination with microwave. We know microwave is absorbed by water, that's
how ovens cook, but would be absorbed by the foam? Or would it be possible to include a microwave absorbing material into
the foam to absorb it?
While searching around, I found an interesting story on an alarm installers forum about how a PIR was defeated.
The thieves broke into the business by forcing the door, rushed over to the PIR and sprayed it with laquer to cover the lens,
and left. The cops and owner came, found nothing taken and assumed that the thieves were scared off by the alarm.
After everyone left the thieves came back through a hole they made in the wall and cleared the place out. :D

Sorry, blue light won't do it. The sensors have a front filter made of either silicon or germanium, which passes IR and reflects
the visible band.

I just spent the last hour conducting some experiments with foam.
First, I mixed up a saturated solution of citric acid with liquid dishwashing detergent and added that to a saturated bicarb
solution. Instant foam!
Problem though is that it's very short lived, as the foam is extremely wet, breaking down into liquid within a minute. Probably
because of the solubility of CO2 in water.
Next, I tried using a high volume/low pressure air pump blowing through a thin solution of detergent in water, using a needle
nozzle (like for airballs).
This worked very well. A milliliter or two of soap solution turned into a mass of bubbles the size of a basketball. :) It wasn't as
obscuring as the acid/base foam was, but it was much dryer and lasted much longer. I would think it rather easy to make a
large mass of thin bubbles, than a large mass of dense bubbles.
This would especially be good with those anti-masking PIR's since the larger bubbles wouldn't obscure the sensors at all within
the couple of inches between the IR LED and the sensor. :D
I'll try using polymeric bubble mix later with the HVLP inflator and see how well that works. Fortunately, I can get the polymeric
bubble mix in 4 oz. tubes at work real cheap. ;)
If there was a low boiling point freon that could be mixed in with it, than that'd work great for spraying, as the freon would
volatilize and foam up the mix on target. Though I wouldn't spray the mix directly onto the sensor, rather around it (like a
doughnut) so the foam will close in on it and smother it indirectly.
No laser that you can fit in a pen pointer is going to be capable of burning out anything less sensitive than your eye. Plus, if it
was powerful enough to do that, it'd destroy the sensor all right, meaning an open circuit that'd sound the alarm anyways. :(
Tuatara September 18th, 2003, 01:28 AM

Try adding a bit of glycerine to your mix. Thats what I do for the kids to make their bubbles last longer.
An aquarium airstone would be good for making lots of tiny bubbles too.

I've done some more experimentation using polymeric bubble mix.
I dissolved as much citric acid as possible in the bubble mix, and poured that onto a solution of bicarb. It foamed up
wonderfully. Unfortunately, while the bubbles lasted much longer, they were still "wet". Tossing some on the side of the sink,
they slide straight down. That's not going to stick on a PIR. :(
I found that if you use a dry mix of equal volumes of citric acid and bicarb, and pour the straight polymeric bubble solution on
it, nothing happens. But, once you add water and stir, the stuff foams up very rapidly and is much "dryer", sticking to the side
of the sink without sliding off, and the bubbles last several minutes...long enough to do a job. :D
Also, smaller bubbles are "wetter" than larger bubbles, so larger bubbles are prefered.
Perhaps a projector would be possible, using the reaction between the dry acid and bicarb to pressurize the sprayer, and
activating it by breaking a water capsule inside of it. It'd have to have a large nozzle, otherwise all the bubbles would be
ruptured by shearing through the nozzle.
Dave the Rave November 4th, 2003, 03:11 PM

Instead of blowing foam all over the place, which will be very time consuming, why not use one of those mist machines that
people use on music concerts ? It uses glycerine as source of mist and a smal 12 volts batery as a font of energy. The whole
system will weigh only 2 kilos, with enough gliceryne to fill a room with a dense cloud.
When the IR reaches the fog, it will be refracted in many small beams, bluering the sensors, allowing a person to walk without
seting of the alarm. It probably will be as refractary to light as water fog, and long lasting too.
The morning after, the only trace that be on the scene will be a small quantity of liquid gliceryne, and maybe, a little scent of
strawsberry...
mrloud November 7th, 2003, 09:14 AM

Fog machines used on stage vaporise a mixture of water and ethylene glycol. The water makes the fog, the glycol slows it
dissolving into the air. The problem with filling a room up with fog is that you wont be able to see what you are doing.
You could use the fog jet to fill bubbles. You would still need to get the bubbles to stick to the PIR but opaque bubbles would
work better than clear ones.
Some problems that will need to overcome: Stage fog will set off smoke detectors despite what the manufacturer claims. The
fog is very hot as it emerges from the machine and a sudden hot jet of gas will almost certainly trigger the alarm.
If I had a PIR to play with I would try 'gooping' it with a thick water based liquid like personal lubricant. It could form a cool
watery layer several millimetres thick capable of stopping IR. I'd also try adding something milky... like errr... milk to increase
the diffusion.
YayItGoBoom! November 8th, 2003, 02:27 PM

I was stuck with toilet scrubbing this morning and the idea just popped into my head. The stuff is really bubbly. After toying
around a bit I came up with a wonderful A/B compositon.
A:
1 part Lysol Bath + Tub cleaner (the blue stuff that comes in a weird shaped bottle for squirting in toilets)
1 part Dish detergent (Dawn)
2 parts mild H[sub]2[\sub]SO[sub]4[\sub] (came out of a spent battery, I would guess about 1-5% conc)
B:
1 part (same part as A) Baking Soda powder
1 part water
Mix A into B (violently as to help the mixing) and it will react quickly and produce thick, sticky, viscous bubbles ranging from
the thickness of Cool Whip to clam chowder (depending on how hydrated it is) Using 1 part = 1 tablespoon yields 24 fluid oz.
of thick blue bubbles. They last for at least 5 minutes (longer if you use less water)
Another idea to consider is the foam insulation polymer stuff. It comes either spray form or in A/B composite. Mix together
and the stuff expands 20x, usually opaque yellow. This might obscure it too much however.

Jamming a PIR is something I have also thought about. Having installed a few alarms in my time (as favours/at cost) and
having an "eye" for security systems, I can share a few tips with the forum.
Firstly, never break in through the kitchen (or anywhere else) if you can see the PIR is a longer one than normal. These are
the ones that cost a lot more, and have a microwave sensor in them as well. Even with a clever masking system, if you trip the
microwave system (which you will if you move towards it) the alarm will still sound. There are lots of caveats on this, of course.
Sometimes the sensor is wired so that both sensors have to trip before it will sound, sometimes either. The more intelligent
ones trip if one sensor goes off two or three times on it's own, too.
You can actually tell if a PIR uses microwave as well, not just from the case style, but also with your trusty radar detector. Out
of your car. You could use one of those little pocket bug detectors, but they only trip when you are inches from it, generally.
The radar detector is a much better idea, as it is a little directional as well. Of course, you need to have either a long line of
sight, or an aperture, otherwise waving your detector will set off the PIR!
Secondly, if you can't case the place, forget it, if you know the alarm is on. You probably wouldn't see the PIR first in most
small to medium houses. Modern PIRs are really good. You can get one for 7 which turns on a battery powered light, or
sounds an alarm, and it is pretty darned good. Like NBK says above, you can set one off with your arm from 20 feet. This level
of sensitivity is about standard, but it does depend on the lens in use, as well as the detector. Some will be set to ignore
dogs, etc. at ground level, but don't rely on it!
If you can case the place, you can often "walk-test" the place at the same time. If the little lights don't come on at all,
though, don't bother, as it was probably installed by someone who really knew what he was doing - some of the newer PIRs let
you turn off this light, to stop people doing what you are about to!
How it works is this: Get a friend or two, pretend to be drunk. Mess about sliding along the walls, behind desks, tables, etc. so
that you can tell where the PIR can see. Once you have a route between the (say) register and (say) a window, check out the
window sensor. Often they won't have bothered, since the PIR should do the job. Well, maybe it did ten years ago, but it has,
like all semi-conductors, deteriorated with heat and time. Come back later, and you know what to do. (Obviously, be smart -
doing this in a jewellers is just going to get you on film, but in a bar, it is quite likely to work)
As for jamming with a laser pointer, it works quite well, sometimes. For better results, you would want a near IR laser, but the
only place to get one is to maybe hack a CD burner or something. IR lasers tend to be powerful, but big and mains powered.
You want a little diode one, hence attacking a CD player. I have no idea if it would work though. You would probably set it off
when you turned it on, if it was IR, and so visible to the sensor. Of course, you could just keep tripping the PIR from over the
road till they stop setting the alarm. (With a timer circuit you wouldn't even need to be in the area!)
The sensor gets a big increase in noise, so it turns the sensitivity down (afaik) so you might get away with it.
Older video cameras turn the gain right down (the same sort of thing), too, so they won't see you on the playback. Obviously,
though, anyone looking, or using motion sensitive gear on the video stream, is going to know right away. Also, newer cameras
tend to be better at handling this type of "attack". If you want to try it out, go to Radio Shack or whereever, then find a
camera hooked to a TV and try it! You have to be preety accurate, though. A tripod would be needed from a distance. Also,
with colour cameras, they can split the RGB to lose the saturated channel, and still see you (but this really needs colour and a
non-compressed video recording - if they MPEG it, they won't get anything, as it will have thrown the Green and Blue away!) I
am sure no-one would forget their make-up, but just in case... ;)
Hope this was informative.
p.s. Thanks for that link NBK, I have been trying to find a source for (IR) quadrant detectors for years at a reasonable cost.
Now I know which PIR to strip!
[Edit: Forgot to say- you can buy cans of smoke spray. It is a large aerosol. No idea as to what effect it has as regards IR
attenuation, but I will try it if I can. You would be working nearly blind, but you could cope with that under some
circumstances.]

Does the image recovery require true RGB (component) video, or can it still work with composite video? I don't ever recall a
VCR which could record RGB.
Ditto the smoke in a can, I saw some last night in a Maplin (ala Radioshack) catalogue, the product claims to linger in the air
for 2 hours.
Tuatara November 10th, 2003, 04:33 PM

Those smoke cans are designed for testing smoke detectors, so unless you want the fire department showing up, I'd leave
them alone;)

Anthony,
I'm not sure about the composite video thing, but I do recall seeing it on something like crimewatch. I will check that if I set
this camera and PIR thing up. I have quite a few different cameras, both colour and BW, for a motion sensitive camera rig that
just drops into your PCI slot on a desktop PC. If I set my desktop up, I can have a play, but currently I am on the laptop. Off
the top of my head, I would think composite can be split back into the separate RGB values, though, as the TV does that to
display it through the three different guns.
As for the smoke in Maplin, that's the same stuff. I wasn't that impressed by the density the only time I used it, but it hung
around for a while. A longer blast would have done more. It didn't set off my smoke alarm, so I don't know if it would. I will
test that too, as the kitchen one we have is stupidly sensitive.
Tuatara, in the UK it is pretty rare for the fire alarm to be wired to the main alarm. They tend to just be a battery powered
screamer and sensor package. Just wear earplugs, and odds are no-one outside will even hear it. Stick a bit of tape over the
grill, and you wreck the peizo units' resonance, so the noise goes down quite a lot straight away. Then take it off the wall and
stamp on it, or take the battery out. People will think it is a car alarm two streets away, and ignore it...

Are you refering to all smoke alarms or just domestic ones? Around here commercial properites have smoke alarms that
automatically call the fire department, its a legal requirement IIRC. One place I worked at we didn't need fire drills because so
many idiots kept on tripping the smoke detectors - we'd all pile on outside and a big shiny firetruck would turn up. :D
My house has a monitored intruder alarm, with a smoke detector attached. Smoke detector trips -> alarm calls security
company -> they verify alarm, then call fire dept. Nice peace of mind when away from the house.

I can honestly say that I have never seen a domestic system in the UK that is wired up like that. I know that some of the high
end alarms do it. The alarms in both my houses don't they have standard seperate ones, B&Q, etc. don't tend to stock them,
and so on. Even the ranges I frequent (which almost all have monitored alarms) don't have a combined fire and security
alarm, except one that is on council premises (now closed actually).
Commercial ones would be wired to an all-singing, all-dancing one, which may or may not be monitored. Generally, these
would be found in newer buildings, and offices, due to the fire regulations. However, out of hours, I suspect they wouldn't
phone in, since they don't anyway. The alarm goes off, and the truck turns up, regardless. I have noticed, however, that
almost none of these places use PIR, since they have patroling guards. They tend to use electronic door locks that alarm if
forced, but happily let you in almost any time without problems.
You can buy radio-equipped smoke detectors in the UK that automatically set off all the other standard smoke alarms if one
goes off. I doubt they are in common use, though. The idea is that the fire sets off the alarm in the kitchen, and sounds the
one upstairs at the same time. No wires, though.
A lot of the newer alarms are wireless now, too. You just pop a 9v battery into the PIRs, wire the alarm box to the control
panel, and plug in. You can even have a radio alarm setter and unsetter, like in your car. We brainstormed how to defeat one
of these systems in work Monday. I explained about car security systems, and the newer scrolling key systems. Another guy
came up with the solution:
If you send a valid code, the system ignores anything that should have been before that in the list, as well as a repeat of that
code. So, to defeat it, you need both a scanner with recording and playback facility, equipped with a pretty directional aerial,
and a jammer of fairly good power and small size, which can be remotely turned on and off. The jammer goes near the
system, while the scanner goes such that the directional aerial looks at the mark, and not the jammer.
How it works is this:

As the mark approaches the car/house, they press the button. However, you are jamming the signal, so the system never
receives it. However, you record it, and save it. You record the next two, as well. Now, you quickly toggle the jammer off, and
play back the first signal. This unlocks, leaving you with the next two unlock codes!
Obviously, this will only work if the codes aren't on the same list with the locking codes. If they are, jam again when it is being
locked, and play with the signal so that it works.
Note that this is theory only, and might not work.

Interesting theory! The hard part is going to be recording a weak signal, while transmitting a strong one. I think you would
need the jammer and receiver linked so you can correlate the jamming signal with the received one and extract the difference,
which will be the signal from the remote. Your window of opportunity will be very small - just until the user presses a button on
their remote again, after which your recorded codes will be useless. Still, a small window is a lot bigger than no window.
Looks like a UK market opportunity exists for a low-end security/fire alarm!
BTW I am currently designing a car alarm as part of my job.
play with the signal so that it works
It wont work. In my alarm the code is 64bits long and is encrypted in such a way that a single bit change in the transmitted
data causes about half the encrypted bits to change. This is based on an off-the-shelf transmitter, not something I've thought
up. The odds of hitting the right combo are very, very small.

Oh. So the whole key is encrypted, and they are all pulled from the same list?
If so, how does the car know whether it is being unlocked or locked, or the boot opened?
I assumed that either the encrypted key would authorise a none encrypted part, which would state the action, or that there
would be just one long key list.
If I unlock a car with the first stolen key, surely the second stolen key is valid until the car is UNlocked again? Otherwise, how
does the car alarm know which action to perform? Or have they thrown lots of silicon at it, and have three separate lists?
I was talking about linking the jammer to the scanner system, as you need to be able to turn it off at a very precise time, just
before you unlock the car. The high-gain aerial wasn't designed to boost the signal, but rather to (help) prevent the jammer
signal from overwhelming the scanner. (EDIT: If it wasn't clear above, the jammer is omni-directional or pointed towards the
target receiver, whereas the scanner is physically remote, with a high gain ant. pointing at the target transmitter) As you point
out, of course, if you jam with a known signal, you can subtract it from the scanner input and hopefully get your unlock codes,
you just need to keep inside the dynamic range of your scanner system. If the jammer pulses totally swamp the other signal
there, you won't be able to get it back. Unless you could do something clever with polarisation?
Failing that, mug them for the key. This is now the preferred way in the UK, often starting with a home invasion(!) to steal
high-end cars.

Well, we're way off topic now, (sorry NBK) but anyway.
In short the message from the remote consists of : a serial number (usually 28 bits or more), button data, rolling code (at
least 16 bits), and a check code. This all gets encrypted (with a 64 bit key in my alarm) and sent. The receiver decrypts with its
key, checks the check code for a valid decrypt, checks for a valid serial number, checks for a valid rolling code, and if all is
good it acts on the button data (lock, unlock, boot open, whatever). There are no lists involved - the rolling code counter just
counts up by one each keypress, and the encryption takes care of the data scrambling, so that the counter can't be 'seen' in
the raw encrypted message.
I understand your antenna setup - trouble is for the kind of directivity you would need, the antennas would have to be
something like 50 element Yagi's - rather unwieldy for a covert operation. And there will be evironmental reflections to contend
with too. Hence the correlator. If you can get that bit to work, then the jam/grab/transmit scheme would work.
Nicking the keys is far easier :D

I think NBK2000 will find this interesting. :)
By a "list" I meant that the rolling code that was used last time won't work this time, nor will any code used in the past. The
list, would, in effect, be the after-everthing code that was transmitted.
Anyway, enough! You have convinced me that we didn't find an easy way round the system, but we also determined that if we
do grab a code, then jam until the user goes away, then replay it, it will work, but if they drive away then lock the car, all the
captured codes won't work anymore.
Now, anyone got anything to say about beating IR? ;)
root November 29th, 2003, 02:04 AM

not really related to soap bubbles but is related to motion sensors.
I once experimented with several motion detectors with some neoprene. I was able to pass my hand by the motion detectors,
several times (slowly, fast, even held my hand in front of it), with out detection.
udtst December 15th, 2003, 04:13 AM

I sat and thought about this all last night and I think I have a workable idea. I have not tried it becasue I don't have any IR
devices so if any of you can test it great!!!
Ok. instead of trying to do someting to the IR device which could be hard in some places, why not do something to yourself
instead. To get past an IR device which is putting out IR light and then reciving it try dressing in IR absorbent clothing. The ink
that a barcode is made out of absorbs IR light (like a stealth bomber does with sound waves, yes it deflects some as well but
that is not the point.) and the laser reads the spaces between the lines. SO, if you dye a flight suit or another full body type
suit, you should be able to walk past a detector without reflecting back any IR light to the detector, resulting in no alarm.
To get past one that detects body heat try wearing a wetsuit which you have sewed pockets into which you can place ice packs
into to disrupt you body heat signal. Another idea for this is a product called "Insta-Ice". It is an aresol product found in some
first aid kits. Again if you wear a full body suit, spray this on and it should hide the heat signal as well. Also you can't spray
insta-ice on your skin becasue it is to cold and can freeze burn you.
If you test these ideas please tell me. I would love the know the results.

udtst,
This plan, whilst good, won't work. The detectors pick up changes, not images. That's why they have the funny angular lenses,
to enhance the effect of subtle changes at the boundaries.
Unless the background was a uniform cold, you would be blocking hot areas by moving a cold area across it.
However, I will get my PIR and try it tomorrow.

I am posting this while serving my 2 week probation period so...here goes!
Nbk your idea with soap bubbles is an interesting concept. Although the delivery of bubbles to distant PIR's is seemingly
impossible...unless one could simply walk up to one and either disable it
or apply a foam coating.
I have pondered for some time now, tossing up the very idea of disabling PIR waves or to somehow become "invisible" to
them.
You may have heard of "Emergency Blankets" or "thermal blankets".
They are of shiny metallic appearance and are used to prevent hypothermia or exposure.
They do this by trapping or reflecting bodyheat (95% to be exact), when the blanket is covering you.
Preliminary tests involving wrapping blanket around my hand proved successful. EG the PIR device i rigged up did not "see"
my covered fingers obstructing its field of view.
Which led me to conclude that if i designed and constructed a body suit made from the thermal blanket, i could theoretically
evade a PIR. Things that have to be taken into consideration is the outlet vents for bodyheat. Obviously by its nature, it will
"creep" and will always look for a way out. Excuse my layman principle :) Anyways, the cuffs, ankles and neckline have to be
secure, not to mention the entire stitching. So no bodyhyeat will "leak" disrupt the PIR lense.
I am still debating on the best way to make a pair of gloves to suit and/or boot covers.
A detachable hood will be necessary also and i am thinking something along the lines of a zipper; so long as i can line the
inside of the zipper track with (thermal) material so as no heat escapes through the (ordinary) fabric. For the record blankets
cost between $5-30 depending on size and quality. $30 will get you about 4x4 ft of quality material. (i should know, i used to
sell them;)
Well i am very much accustomed to comments/critiscism so by all means, fire away.
Any input, advice or questions will be welcomed and answered accordingly.
Anthony January 1st, 2004, 07:54 AM

Surely you'd still disrupt the background area? For example, if you walk between the PIR and a storage heater, would that not
still set the alarm off?
If it did work, you'd have limited operating time in the suit, as you'd literally start cooking...
Ammonal January 1st, 2004, 09:09 AM

Now I dont know how 'inline' with this thread this is, but firstly those 'sensor lights' that get installed on the ends of houses
and when someone walks across the back lawn the light comes on? Well, ages ago I was walking towards my house and the
light came on, I had my trusty mag light with me and when the light came on I stopped, then I shone(sp?) pointed the beam
of the torch at the sensor and then resumed walking towards my house and the light never came on as long as I didnt take
the beam of light from the torch off the sensor. I later tryed this at school also,except using a 6volt lantern torch pointed at
the sensor, I smashed a window, picked up some things and left without any alarm or the little red light that comes on when
the sensor picks up movement.
Secondly, I would really appreciate it if some other members could try this with sensor lights and PIR sensors? and let me
know how it goes because I am wondering if it was just luck or if I have found something useful here.
Anath January 1st, 2004, 10:43 AM

I just tried this with a SureFire G2 (read very bright light indeed), both with and without IR filter, and my el-cheapo PIR sensor
light worked as normal..
I then whipped out my 2 million candlepower spotlight and tried it, same effect. (zilch)
I think you just got lucky :)
Ammonal January 1st, 2004, 11:14 PM

Oh bummer :( thought I might have been onto something although I just remembered it was night time and fully dark
outside, so that might have had something to do with it. Further tests might be called for.

It might be his sensor had a photocell on it that turns it off during the day, and the bright light fooled it into thinking it was
daytime, thus turning it off.
I saw an electric leaf blower recently, and thought how perfect that'd be for blowing bubbles en mass. At 500 cubic feet per
minute, you could fill a room in just a few minutes, defeating not only the PIR but also any cameras. Or you could "shoot" the
bubbles towards the PIR since it blows air at 200MPH.
Only problem with a room full of bubbles is that you can't see squat so you'd better know where everything is ahead of time.
NightStalker April 28th, 2004, 07:07 PM

I found mention of aqueous foam being used to suppress noise from firing off explosive charges.
It said that, large or small, bubbles suppress the noise up to 14 decibels, and firing off charges in boreholes with foam adds
another 2 or 3decibels of sound reduction.
So, not only could you avoid the PIR alarm, but then proceed to blow a charge and squash the noise in the process. :)
Harpoon April 29th, 2004, 06:37 AM

You can order IR lasers from here. (http://www.sovietbazaar.co.uk/laser.htm) They have a wavelength of 815 nm, but this
may be unsuitable for use with a PIR, seeing as a PIR is tuned to around 10 m.
This site (http://www.sensorsmag.com/articles/0403/35/main.shtml) claims that PIRs can be defeated not only by someone
moving extremely slow, but also extremely fast. I guess that stops it from going off every time an insect runs across the lens.
This site (http://www.lightsearch.com/resources/lightguides/sensors.html) says that there are blind spots created by the
faceted lens on a PIR. It also has some info on ultrasound detectors.
There's a building near me that has microwave detectors on the inside of the building. When the building was being extended,
you could walk by the plywood that boarded off the building work, and set off the alarm. This resulted in the staff having to
spend 2 hours waiting for a technician to check the building and reset the alarm :D
scooter12589 November 9th, 2004, 02:35 AM

While I was pondering the PIR detector the other night I stumbled onto something that might work. Silly string. you can shoot
it from medium to long distance and from underneath.

I just got my PIR and blower out of storage, as well as the digital camcorder, so video is near. :)

Right, I have tried the "silly string" idea, and found it rather lacking. The PIR went off every time, regardless of the length of
the burst, distance, etc. The protective plastic had no negative effect on performance, but this would help the SS, rather than
hinder.
It was found that even one small line of it was enough to set it off, if it shifted even slightly across the lense. However, if you
sprayed it whilst the PIR was on a non-alarming setting, it would be ok, since the silly string blocked the IR, even when a
bright light and shadow were used. Note that anti-smother sensors would be tripped.
Note that it may impact on the brightness/dusk sensor, depending on ambient light, etc. which would cause the light to
become active during the day if coverage was partial.

Free downloads of the EU standards for various security devices. This gives you the standard against which you must plan for.
;)
http://www.brecertification.co.uk/standards.jsp
the flash February 15th, 2005, 12:06 AM

I have used helmet mounted Thermal Imaging equipment in the Fire Service. It will detect 1/10th of 1 degree Fahrenheit
difference. It will show a wire carrying current out of a fuse box, by the slight temperature difference! Who ever mentioned the
difference is what is detected is right on the money. Even the small unit I used set it's gray scale level by the temperature
average. Water looks black in thermal imaging because it is almost always cooler than the air, but hot water out of a tap looks
white. Being under the water means your skin is at the water's temperature. Smooth metal reflects the heat image, just like
aluminum foil reflects a light bulb. The brushed stainless used in kitchens reflected my own image in the unit. The longer
wavelength of the IR saw the metal as being smooth. The thermal image will not go through glass. The lens on the thermal
imager was Germanium and looked like a gray glass. The hardest thing to see was someone wearing a LOT of clothes with a
facial cover or hood, and had been in the area long enough to come to thermal equilibrium. Birds were almost invisible until
they took wing, and then you could see warmth under their wings. The sky always looks dark, even in the daylight. It was
easiest to see people in rooms with good air conditioning or in cool rooms of uniform temperature. I'd hate to bet that you
could hide from a good TI unit with a competent operator. The problem with the helmet mounted units was the very narrow
field of view, it was like looking through a toilet paper tube, and very easy to get disoriented without your normal peripheral
vision. I'm sure they have better units now.
Zimbabwe! February 28th, 2005, 02:41 AM

I worked at a store about 15 years ago that had an alarm system that was either heat or IR activated (I wish I could
remember.). It would get extremely hot in that place during the summer because of huge south-facing windows and no AC. I
went in on a holiday to do some work and totally forgot to turn off the alarm. No beeping to remind me since there was no trip
sensor on the door I used, just a sensor pointed at it. I walked all around the front showroom and never set it off but I walked
to all the doors and left them wide open to cool it down in there and went to work where I could see them all. About 45
minutes later I got up from my desk and headed for the men's room and then the alarm (not just the remind beep) went off
and scared the hell out of me. It was 100+ degreesF in there when I arrived and it never saw me. It was about 80F when it
went off.
The sensor boxes did have a light that came on when someone moved and I think it was state-of-the-art for the time so it
was likely IR. I seem to remember testing it once in awhile after that experience by moving very slowly and watching the light.
It always depended on the ambient temperature how successful I was at avoiding detection.
Maybe this is outdated info by now but you never know....
Jacks Complete October 4th, 2008, 10:00 AM

Ah yes, digging this thread up after 3 years...
Since the temperature difference is what is detected, it is easy to hide a warm body in a warm room. If you had grabbed a cold
drink out the fridge, the opening of the door probably would have set the sensor off, likewise a hot drink would have done the
same, though the heat change of the kettle would likely have been too slow to trip anything.
Since we last visited this thread, I've read about people drilling holes through the wall to destroy the sensor with expanding
foam. I've also seen a very neat design with an anti-tamper switch which is tripped if you undo the screws or if you pull the box
from the wall.
I still don't know any great ways past these, except for walking rather slowly, and even then, the faceted lens will (generally)
pick up your motion as you move from one sector of it to another, as they are designed to dramatically increase the rate of
image change at the sensor.
I've never heard of one not going off due to moving fast. By "Fast" it probably means transient flashes of sunlight through
windows and things like them, rather than people running past. Certainly flashing your hand past the front sets the sensor I
have off every time, and no human could run that fast. Insects are cold and at room temperature, so wouldn't set off the
sensor unless they blocked a heat or cold source.
IriOfTheSnow October 7th, 2008, 01:11 AM

Well if I had know you were going to exhume this thread, I wouldn't have made my own...
So it's given that PIRs utilize external sources of IR light (i.e. body heat) to detect changes in a system. I remember an idea
about filling a room protected by a heat sensor with hot air, over time, until a human could walk through without posing a
change to the room temperature.
How about if one were to install a covert IR flood light designed to emit the same amout of IR light a human body does in a
PIR protected room? A remote switch activates the light right before the owner activates the sensors, and a person is free to
move about.
Or would a beam focused on the sensor(s) be enough to "saturate" the sensor?
From what I've read about fresnel lenses used in most sensors is that they reduce the quality of the "image" magnified;
perhaps enough to further blend a body's IR emission into the camouflage light.
Truth be told, I very little understanding of how the first idea would work out. Would flooding a closed room with randomly
deflecting IR rays actually flood any sensors? Would the pre-existent IR rays interfere or effect the expected out come?
I'd place more money into flooding a sensor, but that also have the negative of creating a line of IR light between the sensor
and the light source which would essentially become a dangerous trip wire.
On another note...
If one were to enter the protected room using some sort of insulated shield (i.e. a large and thick cardboard box wrapped in
thermal cloth/plastic) which was previously naturalized to the temperature of the the room, one could use NBK's "foam" idea to
spray room temperature foam on each sensor. Perhaps using an external stick with a sting tied to the foam trigger. Also,
some sort of mildly cold substance, like ice, could be used to absorb much of the "seeping" heat of the body, preventing early
detection.
Hirudinea October 7th, 2008, 06:33 PM

How about if one were to install a covert IR flood light designed to emit the same amout of IR light a human body does in a
PIR protected room?
Well if your going to be hiding light emmiters in the room what about hiding several randomly blinking IR emitters in the room
to set the detector off at random intervals, the people monitoring the alarm would become so frustated that they would ignore
any real alarm as just another false one.
akinrog October 10th, 2008, 04:55 PM
I know MythBusters is some kind of TV show rather than a documentary and many people dispute credibility of their
"supposedly" scientific experiments, but in an episode they tested vulnerability of various (PIR and ultrasonic) motion
detectors.
Many myths (including bubbles) have been busted in the episode but using a fireresistant outfits that volcanologists wear,
they past the PIR detector and by using a fleecy (sp?) blanket, they bypass the ultrasonic one too. Regards
James October 13th, 2008, 04:57 AM

re Mythbusters: Huh, IIRC the blanket was just for the motion detector. I think they stuck a pane of glass on a frame in front
of the IR camera. Also the wetsuit and the fire extinguisher were less than satisfactory.
I think the way to do deliberately trip automated IR devices would be to generate a signal long and bright enough to trip the
alarms but small and weak enough to avoid human notice. Which would only work if the display generator lacks a nifty device
to point out where the trigger is (ala those astronomy photos and what not)

I've just had an idea. I shall have to test it over the weekend.
You can buy, for outdoor work, electrical heaters that are basically IR heat beams. The idea is, the wind cannot steal the
warmth, as it is sent as radiation. Pointing one of these at a PIR should jam it. Of course, it will trip when it is turned on, but I
think it is worth a shot. If it only trips once, then mostly it will ignore it as a reflection or noise error.
iHME October 18th, 2008, 06:04 PM

Or one could turn thos IR-heaters on slowly with a power controller. I have seen em' and feeld how they warm you. It is really
strange, just heat, no air flow, nothing.
They even make "sauna's" with IR-heating.
But ramping up the IR heater over a priod of 2 hours should be enough.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Gun Parts Online?
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mrnoface September 18th, 2003, 03:41 PM

I understand this isn't a very scientific question, however it my aid some of our rather clandestine friends in their quest for victory against a foe. What is the deal with ordering
gun parts kits online? I have no experiance with these kits and I assume they require some welding skills and equipment. But other then that wouldn't this be an easy way to
arm yourself anonymously? However I have looked around and am very suspicious of many of these so called "kit vendors" online. Perhaps some of you have had better luck
and experiance they care to share with the rest of us?
- mnf

www.e-gunparts.com has the most stuff and www.tapco.com has some stens and other kits and check out ohio ordance they usually have a lot of kits and stuff. Then search
of the web for the phone for Et Cetera inc they are up till there armpits in kits, but have no website. so you'll have to find there telephone number or go to Bordens or
Barnes&Nobles and find a copy of Shotgun News they usually have a ad in there.
TreverSlyFox September 19th, 2003, 07:15 AM

Gun kits are a great way to aquire that "Off Paper" weapon. Since there's no receiver (the part that is actually clasified by the BATF as the "gun") it's not a "gun" so there's no
yellow sheet (BATF form 4473). BUT, and there's always a but. Where do you get a receiver for that kit? Well if your mechanicaly inclined you can purchase an 80% receiver,
finish it (some are no more complicated than drilling a few holes) and put it togeather with the parts from your kit and you have a weapon. Since the 80% receiver isn't a
"finished" receiver it isn't a "gun" there's no paper work on it.
BUT, here's that but again. The company that sold you that kit or 80% receiver or receiver parts has you on their "customer list" and some have just turned over their "List" to
the Feds just for the asking, No Warrent/Court order, the Feds said "we want it" and the company said "Ok, here it is."
Example: FAC sold replacement barrels for the 9X18mm Makarov pistole. A Federal prosecuter was shot and killed with a Mak and the FBI weapons lab said the ballistics were
from a Mak with an FAC replacement barrel. Feds went to FAC and said give us your "customer list" who you sold Mak 9X18mm barrels to up until such and such a date. FAC
turned their "customer list" over without batting an eye, no warrent, no court order. So for the past year all those customers have been getting visits from the FEDs and
"STRONG" (read as threats) requests were made for the barrel so it could be tested.
If your going this route buy your kit at a gun show or friendly gun dealer (no name, no list, cash talks bullshit walks) same with the 80% receiver or receiver parts. The AK-47
and Sten MK II & III 9mm Sub-gun is perfect for an off the paper weapon. The receivers are made of common materials and easily found. The Sten only requires about and
18" length of 1 1/2" DOM tubing for the receiver and the AK-47 receiver can be made from sheet metal and screwed, riveted or welded togeather. Plenty of info on the web to
complete both in a matter of several days work.
Hand gun 80% receivers and kits are out there from the standard 1911 .45 to a Sig 226. There are also raw castings receivers out there but require a mill or a damn good drill
press with a slide table for many weapons.
I've seen raw castings, 80% receivers or receiver kits for 1911 .45, Sig 220 & 226, FN-FAL , Sten MK II & III, PpSh, UZI, MP-40, VZ61 "Skorpion, Beretta M-12, Mas 49/59,
MP5/SW5/HK94, AR15/M16, Vz-58, MG-34/40, Browning 1919A4, Sterling MK IV, Galil, MG-15 Watercooled, G3/HK91, CTEME and Thompson 1927 A-1 and M-1.
Any one of these should float your boat and rock your world.
parmin September 19th, 2003, 11:00 PM

I found that generally you can buy any part of a gun from any of net gun stores, except for the receiver or body frame. It is the only part that you have to have a license to
get. One mail order company that came to mind is Marstar or www.marstar.ca sells everything you need for a gun. But if you want a frame you must produce paperwork to
show that you are indeed allowed to buy them. :(
So, anyone have a CNC mill or metal casting setup? Lets make frame :)

That's where RTPB's "T NO" and "Plan for Failure" come into play.
You must assume that anyone selling dodgy kits is going to roll over on their customers, after all, what's their motivation to be silent? None. They've already gotten their
money from you, so they could care less.
Pay for it with a money order, bought by a wino you payed to do so, so there's no prints or DNA on it. Same for the envelope. Have it delivered to an empty house, with the
delivery tag checked off for drop-off delivery.
I wonder if it'd be possible to replicate a weapon receiver by building up layers of resin-impregnated paper? Imagine if you had a CAD drawing of the receiver, and cut a
receiver into hundreds of slices (running lenthgwise), and printed out the slices at actually size.
Cut out the slices, coat with some epoxy-resin, and stack one upon the other, to build up a fiber-reinforced reciever. :) Being all paper, it'd be easy to smuggle it in, and the
parts could come in one at a time in various ways without detection.
I don't know how well it'd hold up,but it'd only have to last for a couple of shots, right? After all, you'd either being using it to get a better weapon (ala WWII "Liberator"), or be
disposing of it after a crime, so why waste money on an expensive gun when you can assemble it from cheap "kits" as needed?
Sheet metal would obviously work better than paper, and would be easy to dissassemble to scatter to the four winds. I've seen CNC plasma cutters for sheetmetal working
advertised in the back of Popular Mechanics, and they're less than $1K. If you could build receivers for various weapons from simple sheetmetal stock, that'd greatly complicate
police efforts at tracking them down, since they don't exist except for a few hours/days before use. Prior to that, it's just a box of parts and a stack of sheetmetal. ;)
With sheetmetal, you could make laminates out of steel and magnesium, which would be pyrotechnic. Do the job, light the igniter, and watch the gun burn to slag. :p

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Simple electronic timer
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Lil_Guppy September 21st, 2003, 03:56 AM

Since this is my first thread, I have placed it in the Water Cooler in case I breach any of the forum rules by accident. Here goes...
The technical info

Recently I began research on the net for a simple timer circuit that could be used to initiate a model rocket ignitor. I wanted something that had some indication of the time
remaining, and could be modified to set off strings of ignitors at different times. I did a search in Google and I found an article written on here by Jumala with his (or her) timer
diagram (this is actually how I found this forum :)). Unfortunately I couldn't find one of the parts where I am, so I looked further into the net. I found so many articles about
the good ol' 555 timer, but this isnt what I really wanted, for several reasons, one being I wanted a set time to elapse *before* the IC's output went high. For those who dont
know, when the 555 timer is activated, the output goes high for the time period, then goes back to low. I then came across the 4017 CMOS chip. Basically the 4017 is an IC
that has 10 outputs switched by a clock pulse. What that means is that each output (1 - 10) is selected by a pulse on the clock input. So the first pulse would make output 1 go
high, while all other outputs remain low. The next clock pulse turns output 2 on, and all others off etc etc. So... (apologies if this is hard to understand) I then set up the 555 in
an astable mode and fed it into the clock trigger input of the 4017. Connected to the first 9 outputs are 9 LED's (one on each output) to give a countdown indication (In my
prototype i had 3 green, 3 yellow and 3 red LED's). The 10th output was connected to the 4017 clock disable pin and via a transistor to a relay. The 4017's clock disable pin
just means that no more clock pulses are counted, essentially freezing the count on 10, and freezing the relay on. Of course to the relay, the ignitor is connected. The timing
period is defined by R1, R2 and C1. If anyone is interested in this circuit, please let me know and I will post more information on adjusting the timing. And I think thats about
all the tech stuff at the moment.
Other Ideas
I said in the section above that I wanted the circuit to be adaptable and able to be used to set off strings of ignitors (or detonators etc etc) one after each other. By using this
circuit, you can set up to 10 events by removing the indicator LED's and replacing them with the transistor/relay setup used on output 10. Just remember not to connect the
first 9 outputs to the clock disable pin, otherwise the count will never get to 10.
At the moment, I dont have a web server that allows linking image files, so to find the circuit diagram, please click here (http://www25.brinkster.com/darkside01/
layout1.html)
I hope that this info is of use to someone, and I hope that it is an acceptable thread.
chemwarrior September 21st, 2003, 04:44 AM

It is quite useful. Ive been working on a simple electric ignitor and this info is quite useful. It will benefit the members on here who dont have much knowledge of electronics,
well, it may confuse them a bit because of the technical jargon, but Im sure they can find out what things mean on their own.
Also, you dont need to ask if anyone wants to see the circuit. Just up it somewhere and post a link.
On another note, this would have been perfect for the Tools, Techniques, and Plans section. Despite it not being advised to post a new thread as a first post, in this instance it
would have been alowed I think, due to the fact that it was quite informative.
And please, post any more info you have on this circuit. It seems quite nice:)
Tuatara, do you have any info you could share with us? You seem to be the best qualified to determine if this is workable or not, as I only have a small knowledge of
electronics....:(

Well, basically the only other info needed is how to get different timing periods. Using the component values shown on the diagram will give about 1 minute until the relay is
triggered. The following shows how to work out the component values for other time periods (I wont go into detail about why you do the steps at this time, as it may just
confuse people even more :P)
Step 1
Figure out how many seconds delay you want/need.
e.g. - 120sec (2 minutes)
Step 2
Divide this value by 18
e.g. - 6.6666sec
Step 3
Divide the value from Step 2 by 0.07
e.g. - 95.238
This is the value of R2 in kohms.
Using this method, and keeping all other components the same, delays of as little as 12sec (R2 = 10kohms) or up to 21min (R2 = 1Mohms) can be obtained. You shouldnt go
below 10kohm or above 10Mohm for R2, or else things get a little unstable. To get other values, C1 needs to be changed, but thats getting a little to confusing at the moment.
Hope this helps.
[EDIT] I actually made a mistake when drawing the circuit diagram. It is fixed now. Just wanted to let everyone know in case they printed the old copy.
zeocrash September 21st, 2003, 06:21 AM

wow this is a very refreshing change. A new member who knows something.
Tutura is probably the best person to review your idea, but it looks very promising. it's nice to see a competent new member.

I dont know about competent... :p
The prototype I did yesterday (yes I did actually build it) worked a treat. It didnt cost much to make the base unit (i.e. without switch or box). The time delay was consistant
even though I was using resistors with a 5% tolerance. Damn electronics store ran out of the 1% ones :( but it didn't really matter because its only the prototype. Like I said
above its pretty easy to adapt it for different purposes. For example, you could have a switch which selects between 2 timing periods, a switch to turn off the indicator LED's, or
you could remove the LED's altogether and have 10 devices set off one after each other.
I do admit that I know little about a few of the other topics discused on this forum, but then again, thats why Im here, to learn. :)
Bert September 21st, 2003, 11:30 AM

We use electronic sequencers for pyrotechnic displays, the
typical timings are much shorter than those described
in Lil_guppy's post... Generally from 1/100ths of a second
to a couple of seconds. We use them for things like comet
chases, mine runs and other choreographed effects that
need better timing than can be provided by a human
finger on switches but don't call for a full scale computer
firing system. The are kind of pricey, typically $200.00
to $500.00 per box excluding the cabling and firing
slats or other terminals for the e-matches.
This plan looks interesting to me- For my uses I'd want to set
it up with a variable and lower range of timings most likely,
but that shouldn't be too tough.
Can you ballpark your cost of the basic circuit in US $'s?
Have you put any thought into output circuitry beyond the
relay switching the firing power? Commercial, field grade
equipment needs protection from over current, switch (relay
contact) welding, firing into dead shorts or excessive #'s of
parallel igniters and all the other things that can happen when
idiots use a firing system. Additionally, protection from
induced currents in the output circuit can be a benefit
in prolonging the user's life expectancy... Shunting
or other protection to keep the setup from firing due to
induced voltage, be it from radio or high currents in an adjacent
firing line.
Also, a built in continuity indicator is a very nice thing to have

in any firing system (I don't ask for much, do I?!)
Thanks for this high quality first post!
Hubert September 21st, 2003, 02:06 PM

Rusian timers :cool:
http://www.pirotex.by.ru/7.htm
I have some fotos of very easy timers, maby i past this photos in to the forum, when I have more time for this stuff. :)
Tuatara September 21st, 2003, 06:41 PM

I'd give it two thumbs up. A nice simple circuit, readily available (cheap) parts. I think the only thing I'd change is to insert a 1k resistor between the RST pin (15) and 0V and
add a 'Reset' button (normally open contact) between RST and VDD. This is simply because 4017's do not have a guaranteed starting state, a reset button allows you to zero
the system.
By the same token, a switch in line with the relay coil would be a useful safety feature, when powering up the circuit to avoid accidental firing
Lil_Guppy September 21st, 2003, 10:01 PM

Bert
Changing the timings to a lower setting is really easy, as all that needs to be replaced is C1, which is changed to a a lower value (10uF perhaps). Of course the steps to work
out R2 I wrote above wont work though but thats not a problem. Ballpark figure for the basic circuit was around AU$12. The basic circuit offers no protection from the things
you mentioned, but the relay could be easily replaced by a FET which removes the risk of contact welding. As for the continuity tester, that would be rather simple to
implement.
Tuatara
I did think of adding the stuff you mentioned, but I had already bought the bits and came home :p
Bert September 22nd, 2003, 12:28 AM

When I get a moment, I'll copy the output circuitry from
my manual firing system. Includes an e-match safe
continuity check, shunting, current limiting, etc. Shouldn't
raise the cost too much, I hope.
Lil_Guppy September 22nd, 2003, 02:38 AM

That would be quite handy actually if you could get that info to me. I dont think that it should raise the cost much, although one would never know :p If I can get other ideas/
info, perhaps I should create a little booklet for it, with all the information to make different timing periods, different variations on the circuit for different uses etc etc. Of course
I would post it here for all to see :) Let me know what you think.
Lil_Guppy September 23rd, 2003, 04:53 AM

Well... I just threw together a quick PDF file for the timer circuit (minus the images) and wanted to know if I should add/remove anything from it. The circuit diagram is still
available from the link in the post at the top.
The PDF File (http://www25.brinkster.com/darkside01/downloads/timer_instructions.pdf) (Right click -> Save As)
Like I said, it doesn't have the circuit diagrams in it, as I am still in the process of drawing them.
DBSP September 23rd, 2003, 10:04 AM

As my electronic skills are very limited I just have to ask you, what kind of bridgewires/ignitors can be used with this setup. The current needed for a model rocket ignitor is
much less than for a nichrome ignitor. Could it handle nichrome igitors for instace?
Sorry for the stupid question but I can't really figure it out myself.
And secondly would it be able to connect this timer unit to my blasting box to fire a relay triggering a tyristor realeasing the electric impulse from my blasting box?
Specs on my blasting box below:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1927&highlight=blasting+box
The pictures are offline though.
Tuatara September 23rd, 2003, 07:04 PM

The current rating of the relay contacts will determine what sort of ignitors you can use. Back to Ohm's Law:
I=V / R, where R is the resistance of your ignitor, V is the voltage you are applying to the ignitor, I is the current that will flow.
Make sure I is less than the DC current rating of the relay contacts and all should be well.
The answer to your second question is a very simple 'yes' :D

Or replace the relay with a FET :P
The ALL-MIGHTY September 25th, 2003, 06:43 PM

I saw your post on that electronics form too, a timer would be a great, not as expensive as a radio detonator and much simpler!
What would really work good is if your could program it to any number you wanted and see it count down on a display. i saw some stuff like that in a google search. also
anyone that knows elctronics should in some way download Circuitmaker, not becasue you can build stuff with it but because it has a really good model rocket igniter circuit
and some other (maybe about 3) delay circuits, one of which has a 99-1 second time range.

Lil_Guppy, don't place too much faith in silicon! I've seen FETS protect fuses by blowing first:eek:
A relay contact is capable of withstanding a subtantial overload, the sort over overload that will make a FET detonate (and yes, I've seen that happen too - very nasty when
you don't expect it)
This is not to say FETs can't be used, just that more design work is required ;)

Tuatara
Indeed. I was just stating some options. I have had no troubles with using the relay as yet, even though it is only a small cheap 'hobby' relay (thats what its called in the
catalog). I know all about explosive silicon as well... ;) Do you have any more suggestions that I can put into my PDF?
The ALL-MIGHTY
The reason I did this the way I did, was because it is cheap and easy to construct. Having a fully programmable timer with numbers for the countdown etc etc begin to take it
into the not as cheep or easy to construct realm. As for circuit design software I use ExpressPCB. Its free, and pretty darn good. It comes with a schematic drawer and a PCB
layout drawer which you can link back to the schematic. As for the software you mentioned coming with free scematics, I find I learn more if I have to search for the info,
rather than having it spoon-fed ;):p
Jumala September 26th, 2003, 12:50 AM

Last days I looked for other timer chips like 4541 and I found a thread of the elektor magazine about a long period precision timer.
It works from seconds up to half a year. Its made from one 4541 with crystal oscillator and two 4040 dividers.
The PDF file is 185 KB large.
If someone needs the file please send me a mail add.
To lil_guppy
The 4541 gives you a set time which elapsed before the output turns to "high".
In my plan the 4541 is the only inportant part. All others are exchangeable.
Which part isnt available for you?
Lil_Guppy September 26th, 2003, 02:28 AM

Jumala
I did end up finding the bits for the timer you sent me. The reason why I decided on using the 4017/555 combo is that I can use the spare 9 outputs to drive indicator LED's to
give an indication of how much time has elapsed, plus it can be easily modified to drive a sequence of up to 10 events, which could be useful for pyrotechnic displays.
Lil_Guppy October 20th, 2003, 12:23 AM

Just to let everyone know, I have created a much better PDF file for my timer. The download link is here (http://www25.brinkster.com/darkside01/downloads/
timer_instructions.pdf) (Right Click -> Save As...) I hope this can be of some help to everyone :)

I started reading this thread because I love SIMPLE stuff. For your purpose (countdown timer) it looks like you have a winner. If I may, I'd like to add some ideas for a
different SIMPLE counter.
For an accurate remote timer, such as a "timed-bomb" would require, or a device that turns on and off at at set time every day, or at set intervals, a cheap digital LCD clock
can be used. You can have an output for each segment of the display. Choose the segment that turns on at the time, or rate of your disired output. Tracing down the
connection to each segment can be a pain, but it can be done. with the battery removed, use the diode function of your digital VOM. Looking at the circuit board behind your
display it should be obvious which is the common supply lead for each digit; they will be connected together, a trace connecting some pin or pins on each digit. The common
may be either positive or negative. Hell, just poke around with your ohmeter leads and watch the display. A mirror can help with this. Soon you'll find out the polarity and pins
for your desired segment or segments. You may want to run your outputs through some logic gates if you want some weird intervals that don't correspond to any single
segment of the display. The display can be directly connected to logic gates, but to actually turn something on and off you will need an amplifier and possibly a reley.
I didn't want to steal your thread, but I didn't want to start a new one, either. Hope this is OK.
Lil_Guppy October 25th, 2003, 11:25 PM

grandyOse
Steal away :p If its a timer, then I dont mind. I must say that there are much simpler ways of doing a timer like the one you described. If all you are looking for is an on-off
cycle that repeats itself, you could use a simple 555 timer circuit. If you want to sequence more than 2 things over and over again, you could even modify the circuit I
presented so that when the count gets to 10, it resets. This is done by removing the link from between Pin 11 and Pin 13 on the 4017.
T_Pyro October 26th, 2003, 06:21 PM

I've used timers based on the 555 before, but these timers aren't exactly "expendable". Sometimes, simple electronic timers are required which have to be cheap, compact, as
well as expendable. For such requirements, I'd designed an analogue timer circuit using minimal number of components.
The circuit diagram is available here (http://www.geocities.com/joydeep_b2002/Timer_Ckt.html) .
Components:
R1, R2, Rt: carbon composition resistors, values to be selected according to the timing required.
Ct, C1: Electrolytic capacitors. C1=1000microF minimum, 3000uF recomended, voltage rating same as Vcc. Ct value to be selected according to the timing required.
NPN silicon transistor
Vcc, battery source, 5V min.
1 DPST switch to charge C1 through, (use for the connections to C1) and 1 SPST switch to activate the timer.
Nichrome wire.
Equations:
Vb (base voltage)= (R2/(R1+R2))*Vcc
t (time delay)= Rt*Ct* Ln(Vcc/(Vb-0.6))
Working:
Initially, when both the switches are in the "on" position, both the capacitors are charged up to Vcc. Next, the DPST switch is released, and the connections to the nichrome wire
made. The circuit starts as soon as the SPST switch is released. The capacitor Ct starts discharging through Rt, and when the voltage across Ct becomes 0.6V less than Vb, the
transistor turns on, and the capacitor C1 discharges through the transistor and nichrome wire, igniting the explosive charge being used.
grandyOse October 26th, 2003, 08:07 PM

Have you tested this circuit? Could you label your switches or draw a dotted line to denote mechanical coupling on the DPST? It seems to me that to charge both caps, all three
swithes must be on, but that would put Vb across the ignitor, bringing an abrupt end to the operator. Maybe I'm just not seeing the switches correctly.
Timing is going to be approximate, also. You could do a lot of bench testing to get the timing more precise. If you want something that's going to go off in "about 2 minutes"
this is about the simplist type of circuit you could build.
I'm not trying to sell anything here, but that's where my timer is good. It has japanese quartz timing built in. But, heh, it's all good if it works. Whatever you have available and
makes you smile, that's the best circuit.
T_Pyro October 27th, 2003, 01:39 AM

Yes, I've tested this circuit, and it works well enough for what it's worth. I had configured my timer to give a delay of 46 seconds, and it gave a time lapse of about 48 seconds
on all the tests. The difference between the theoretical and experimental value could be because of many factors, but whatever the cause, the experimental value remained
within 1 sec of 48 sec.
To make the switch connections clearer:

The left and right switches constitute the DPST switch, which is used to charge the ignition capacitor (C1).
The switch in the middle is the single SPST switch, and it initiates the timing circuit.
Sorry for the confusion.
To clarify the working of the circuit:

When all the three switches are on, both the capacitors charge up to Vcc. In this state, the nichrome wire should NOT be connected, else it will ignite in your hands.
When the DPST is off, the nichrome wire can be safely connected. As the SPST switch is still on, the capacitor Ct cannot discharge yet, as it is held across Vcc. When the SPST
switch is switched off, Ct starts discharging, and the timing sequence has started.
grandyOse, like you stated, this circuit is not meant for precise timing, as it would have an error of +-1.5 sec (experimentally observed). Rather, this circuit is meant for
occasions when you need to be far from the scene of the detonation, and would rather not return to the scene.
Bert, when you spoke of a "full scale computer firing system", exactly how sophisticated was the system? It's easy to make a computer-controlled firing sequence for far less,
accurate to within 1 millisec, and capable of initiating 256 events, or when scaled up, 65536 events. If anyone is interested, I could post the plan, but I don't think it could be
considered as a "simple timer", although the cost would be about 20 US$.

Yes it all makes sense now. I should have read your original post more carefully, for it states to hook up the ignitor AFTER charging the capacitors and turning off the charging
switch. I'm suprised that the timing is so accurate, but glad it works for you. If I were going to build an RC timer, I would probably use a schmitt trigger whose input is the RC
network. I'd also put the nichrome wire in the emmitter or collector current path of the output transistor. I'd use one switch to activate the timer, probably a DT which would
keep a short across the cap in the off state (I'm pretty paranoid).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > C an som e one help m e m a k e
a crossbow please
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View Full Version : Can some one help me make a crossbow please
SmallR2002 S e p t e m b e r 2 5th, 2003, 04:58 PM

I'm m aking a crossbow for m y D&T project can som e o n e g u i d e m e t h r o u g h

Another newbie that is makeing a first post thread that is asking for plan s. And again you should of typed that in our search
engine and searched that, and you would of found a topic from a couple of months ago that talked all about Xbows.
Mr Cool S e p t e m b e r 2 5th, 2003, 06:28 PM

I'm gonna have to use the picture aga in....
http://www.boom s p e e d . c o m /m rcool/O h_god.jpg
(Sorry, I just think the picture's funny, and this thread does suck.)
kingspaz S e p t e m b e r 2 5th, 2003, 06:31 PM

d a m ! looks like the n ight shift is going to be busy :p
closing....again...
Mr Cool S e p t e m b e r 2 5th, 2003, 06:47 PM

Don't worry Kingspaz, I'm here too. Together we can fight off the kewls!

I knew I should have waited u ntil tom orrow to approve that next batch of newbies...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > one way b ullet proof glass,
self healing too!
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View Full Version : one way bullet proof glass, self healing too!
Mick October 1st, 2003, 08:39 AM

http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/m e t r o / i n d e x . s s f ? / b a s e / n e w s - 0 / 1 0 5 7 6 4 9 2 3 3 8 8 8 8 0 . x m l - a r t i c l e
http://www.la bock.com/english/bpg.htm - product info/labock we bsite
http://www.la bock.com/videos/labock_one_way_test.ram - d e m o m o v i e ( 2 . 7 m b , i h a v e n ' t s e e n i t y e t )
what do ya think guys?..sounds very interesting indeed..
(btw, mods, m ove this topic, i took a page from t h e n o o b s b o o k with this one. i couldn't figure out where to put it, so, all else
fails - water cooler )
arsoniztonfyre October 19th , 2 0 0 3 , 0 1 : 3 8 P M

That's very interesting indeed. I just don't see how it is possible to heal itself.
chemwarrior October 19th , 2 0 0 3 , 0 3 : 2 7 P M

Read the article... it doesnt actualy 'heal', but it does not shatter the glass like a norm al bullet would. From the inside, it hits a
soft layer first, then the ballistic glass. The inner layer is soft enough tha t after the bullet passes through it, it can 'close up' a
s m a ll am mount. However, when shooting from the outside in, th e bullet hits the ballistic g lass first, stoping the bullet before it
gets to the softer inner layer.

From the thread I sta r t e d b e f o r e R h a d o n p o i n t e d o u t t h is one.
----
one-way bulletproof glass
Haven't found this on the search.
I rem e m b e r s e e i n g a d e m o of this on Tomorrows World , back when I had TV. The way it was m a d e w a s a c o u p l e o f s h e e t s o f
plastic, bonded together.
Basically, the trick was, to glue the two types of sheet so that the hard one was on the outside, and the soft was on the inside.
The bullet from the outside hit, and was distorted by, the hard o uter sheet, which flexed the inner sheet, absorbing the energy.
The shattered bits stayed in p lace, on the softer sheet, held by the glue.
Bullets from the inside hit the softer la yer, and pushed through it, then shattered the hard outer layer, which was then pushed
away from th e glue and the softer layer, letting the bullet pass through. The hole would then shrink as the inner layer pulled
back in, with the hard bits still glued to it.
Hence, one-way bulletproof glass. Obviously, it wouldn't be as strong as normal m ulti-layer polycarbonate and glass would, but
it could be designed for the required threat level. Of course, you would need the occupants to be a rm ed with something potent
e n o u g h t o p a s s c l e a n ly through the ou ter layer, or you have one hell of a ricochet danger! It does, however, allow the option of
shooting back, unlike the "fish in a barrel" approach otherwise em p l o y e d .
Suggestions for the m aterials, anyone? I would think glass would do for the outer surface, and perhaps polystyrene for the
inside, and some kind of superglue. Anyone know for sure? Any better suggestions?
I can't wait to make some! It is som ething I never got round to.
---
Can we delete that th r e a d , a n d m ove this to im provised weapons or som ething?
Marvin January 9th, 2004, 06:53 AM

From m e m ory the way it worked depended on a property of polycarbonate. Aparently its a very strong m aterial under
c o m p r e s s i o n , b u t n o t s o o n e x p a n s i o n , w h e r e i s j u s t s e e m s to shatter. So you m ake a 2 layer window with polycarbonate on
the outside and a bullet hitting the outside com presses the polycarbonate against the inner lining and thisis strong enough to
stop it. In practice it seems to end up wedged between the layers, splitting them . A bullet from the inside peirces th e inner
lining with no difficulty and the pressure on the polycarb onate is expansion which probably just sha tters it locally and it passes
though.

Marvin,
that's the one. Now we need to know which other m a t e r i a l s a r e n e e d e d .
S o m eone said acrylic for the softer side, but we would need to find the right glue.
streety January 11th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 2 : 5 7 P M

I think you h ave it the wrong way round.
http://www.la b o c k . c o m / e n g l i s h / b p g _ o n eway.htm
On the protective side, as a bullet strikes the a crylic (brittle, but very strong when compressed) outer layer, the acrylic is
c o m p r e s s e d , s t r e n g t h e n s , a n d a b s o r b s / d i s t r i b u tes the bullet's energy. Sim ultaneously, the polycarbonate layer, which has
flexible characteristics, stretches as it dissipates all the rem ainin g bullet energy, and there is no fu ll penetration. Th ere is
s o m e "spider webbing" on the impact side, but the inside of the glass rem a i n s s m o o t h a n d u n d a m a g e d .
O n t h e O n e W ay side , the reverse occurs - The polycarbonate is compressed, and the acrylic is stretched. T he bullet easily
p a s s e s t h r o u gh the soft polycarbonate layer, and into the acrylic layer, which becomes weak as it is stretched. The bullet
shatters the acrylic and continues onward, with negligible loss of velocity, and practically no deflection.
Begste March 8th, 2004, 12:34 PM

Marvin,
that's the one. Now we need to know which other m a t e r i a l s a r e n e e d e d .
S o m eone said acrylic for the softer side, but we would need to find the right glue.
I u s e d t o h a v e t h e e x a c t s p e c s . S o m ething like 11m m acrylic an d 8m m of polycarbonate. Or the other way around. There is a
epoxy called Lexseal.

T h e e x a c t t h i c k n e s s e s w o u l d d e p e n d o n the threat level, as well as the power of whatever you were shooting through it with.
Otherwise your .22 pistol hits you with the ricochet, or you get killed by som e bugger with a 30-06.
I will have to look up Lexseal. Ok, looked, and google said "No pages were found containing "lexseal"."
I have just em ailed ICI Bondmaster, I will post the answer if I get one.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > tubular locks
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frog_croak October 15th , 2003, 04:16 AM

I need a second opinion on a hypothetical (of course) situation
there is a hypothetical old school ATM that is being filled within the week and there is nothing but two tubular locks in between
m y hypothetical thief and a lot of cash.
Disregard entry, exit, surveilla nce, and security of the building it's in.
(I would never have posted th is had I any prior knowledge about tubular locks, sadly my experience has been lim ited to
n o r m al picking, tubular locks never interested m e until now.) :D
Since he naturally wants m a x i m um befits, he has little tim e t o p r e p a r e a n d h a s n o f a n c y e q u i p m ent.
W hat my hypothetical thief ne e d s i s a m o d e r a t e l y f a s t a n d q u i e t m ethod to bypass these two locks.
what do you think?
A-BOMB October 15th , 2003, 10:03 AM

There is no fast easy way except SC and tubular lock picks look here. Explosives will set off the dye packages and kill the cash
so tubular lock picks are the way to go. And remem ber you got to spend alittle money to m a k e a l o t m o r e .
http://shop.store.yah o o . n e t / t h e p i c k s h o p / t u l o p i . h t m l
http://www.peterson-international.com /tubularlockpicks.htm
http://www.lo ckpickersm all.com/lp/tubular.htm l

Cross-posting in multiple sections are we, punk?
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1120&perpage=5 0 & p a g e n u m b e r = 2
Your question is lam e anyway, why did you thin k that you should specifically break our sim ple, precious rules and subject us to
two seperate incarnations of it?
New topic on "first" post too.
HED!:mad:

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > HER F Gun
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badmilk October 20th , 2003, 12:43 AM

Looking To build a High Energ y Radio Frequency Gun from s o m e m icrowave parts but can't find the schema tics for it.
Anyone Know of som e l i n k s ?
Yes I tryed g oogle, It wanted to sell m e stuff...
Tuatara October 20th , 2003, 04:32 AM

Didn't try very hard, did you?
W hen I entered' herf gun' into google I got lots of good looking hits, especially the fifth link to 'Voltage labs'.
idiot.
angelo October 20th , 2003, 05:24 AM

i'm locking this thread.
l e t s s e e h o w l o n g y o u l a s t h e r e b a d m ilk

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Welding
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frogfot November 4th, 2003, 06:54 PM

It seems like welding skill would be a great tool for amateur chemist since many chem experiments require metallic vessels.
Recently, I've fooled around with a car battery, couple of starter cables and a welding carbon rod (8 mm). Made a little steel cup (7,5X10 cm) from 0,7 mm steel plate, heres a pic of it, sorry about poor graphics:
http://www.geocities.com/frogfot/stuff/cuptest.jpg (copy&paste...)
Now, connections is a bit ugly and I don't wanna think about its strength, but that's not bad for a first time :) It was very easy to make side joint, but fusing bottom was a bit harder. Bottom still have some small
holes, that I'll fix when battery have charged (2nd time, now I know why noone uses car batteryes for this). My battery is most likely raped to death after 5-10 times of such rechargings, but I really wanna finnish
this cup to any price...
Enough of that damn cup, moral of my story is a thoat to by a real hobby welding transformer for 80$:
40-140A
43-48V
Those transformers uses very cheap welding electrodes. Anybody have experience with similar? ..I'm in need of an addvice. For example, this transformer got a safety of 16 A, would it be wise to connect this
beast instead of kitchen oven? Since it's the only thing that eats comparable ammount of current (<20 A).
Anyway, do we have members that weld? Would be cool to see some projects they've accomplished and how long it took to adapt the skill.
mr.pyro November 4th, 2003, 08:15 PM

Hey Welding is cool..
I learned how to 2 years ago during the summer at a tech school. I learned arc and mig. That cup weld looks pretty crappy(no offense) to what I was doing. I built my self a grinding rail for skateboarding, that is
now rusty from not using. And a little utility trailer,
Edit: Ill try and help instead of critisize, try moving the rod back and forth quickly while pulling it towards yourself over what you want to weld. Also instead of going back and forth you can do figure 8's.
Skean Dhu November 4th, 2003, 08:26 PM

I plan on taking a welding class before the end of next year and I recently aquired a welding text book from a family freind who has a degree in metalurgy. so as of right now all I lack is a welder
its very interesting too, the garage at the edge of my property has a giant power outlet( the ones for electric stoves, and dryers, i think they're 220v?) its almost as if it were meant to be.
i've also been looking for free instructions on building a propane fueld(sp?) foundary, and a good book on crucible making. then i can cast my own Al, Steel, copper, and what ever i need or want . very useful for
making platter charges, or shaped chage cones.
if you want I could scan in a few pages on select welding topics, give me a general topic you want to know about and I could get it within a week or so.
A-BOMB November 4th, 2003, 10:47 PM

I weld with a oxy-mapp torch so its abit harder, I think it would easier for you to braze your joints its easy just go to a DIY store they should have brazing rods there that will allow you to braze together just about
anything with a propane or mapp torch.
frogfot November 5th, 2003, 03:46 AM

Gas welding is out of the question for a rookie like me, since it's very expencive. I've seen those brazing rods, quite expencive, but they would be ok for many projects, I also like idea that it's portable so one can
do it outside.
Arc seems to be cheapest way, however since I will do this at home, dunno what to do about smoke.. maby I'll wait with this stuff sofar.
Thanx Skean Dhu, but I'll start with sites on internet, not if you like scanning ofcaurse :) Gotta learn basics first, so I can ask for specific things.
Hay mr.pyro, it's a piece of art.. well afterall, it's a piece of something ;) I realised that one have to be quick, which I wasn't at first. Most annoying thing is how fast battery dies, also, one have to wait from time
to time for it to cool.

Welding is actually very easy to learn, I'm 15 years old but can use with an Oxy/Acetylene torch, an arc welder, and a mig welder and produce good quality welds with any of them.
Arc welding is probably the best way to go for beginners (the equipment and electodes are cheap). The main thing to remember is to cover up exposed skin and wear a proper facemask to avoid eye damage from
the massive emissions of ultraviolet light.
If you look at the arc with no eye protection for any longer than about 1/5th of a second, you will get "welding flash" where your eye gets burnt by the light, nothing happens at first (like sunburn), but your eyes will
hurt like @#$% about 8 hours later. This has never happened to me BTW, so I am speaking from other's experiences that I have heard about.

I think you did alright for a car battery and a set of jumper leads!
Welders arent expensive these days, I think I use a gasless mig the most now, they are messier then gas and only good for mild steel but thats 90% of welding jobs, are cheaper then migs and one consumable is
always better then two.
Anyway, if your after an on topic project heres (http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/droptest.jpg) a drop test rig that will gauge impact sensitivity of explosives, there is only 3 welds in it
and very simple.
That uses a "hammer" made from an endcap and fittings on a 15mm pipe sliding down a 50mm pipe. I use a 3kg weight with a drop of 1m in 5cm increments. Heres some figures -
PETN: 40-45cm
ETN: 30-35cm
AP: 0-5cm
So that length and weight is good for explosives in the sensitivity class of PETN, if you wanted to make it for testing primaries/peroxides you would use a lighter weight for more accurate measurements, or
alternatively a heavier weight to compare less sensitive explosives.
heres (http://geocities.com/roguemovie3/) a movie, goodluck.

I'f you're in Europe then you can run a 16A welder from a standard mains socket. For example, sockets in the UK are rated for 13A, but a 16A welder is fine as the load is only a very light duty cycle.
DBSP November 5th, 2003, 04:54 PM

The biginners first choise id the mig, fucking easy. Just press a button and point it in the right direction and you're set. As easy as that, allthough it's a bit expensive and hard to move around.
The arc welder is really great once you learn how to use it properly, I don't mean just lighting the arc but knowing how fast once should move the electrode in different situations etc. Not like with the mig where
you can clearly see how things are going.
Oxy/ace welding as harder than it seemes but I first learned how to weld on one of those. The hardest part is getting the welding object which may vary in thickness and size to the right and same temperature,
like when welding a plate onto a solid bar or similar, the plate gets really hot really quich and melts before the bar has even got red.
The same problem arouses when using the other welders but it's easier to controle them.
The cheapest and best in my oppinion is the arc welder, not to hard once you learn how to use it and the weld is the strongest one of the above mentioned. I infact leared how to use the arc welder just today.
Hadn't touched one untill today. But I have done lots of welding with oxy/ace and mig before and I'm a really quick learner. But still.
mr.pyro November 5th, 2003, 07:22 PM

By the way, if you do happen to get eye burn go to bed that night with a thick slice of potato over your eye, it helps them tremendously.

Mig welding is easiest but cannot be used on thick metal or metals other than steel.
Arc welding is stronger and can be used on just about anything, but it is harder, and just like Mig, it can only be used on steel.
Oxy/Acetylene welding is the hardest to learn and much slower than Arc or Mig, but you can weld anything you like with it.
Overall, I recommend Arc welding for beginners (Mig gear is much more expensive than Arc).

You can definately weld Aluminium with mig, and I feel sure ive seen Al electrodes for the stick welder also. You can also definately use migs on thick steel, bevel the ends and you can weld any thickness, may
take a few passes but same with the stick, they are also as strong as each other, which is stronger then the parent metal so irrelevant.
Size and portability is a big thing for most people especialy if you havnt a big shed to put it in, in that case its only out of a stick welder and a gasless mig (bad name!), stick is more versatile but harder and gives
you the shits when the electrode runs out during a weld. Gasless mig is easier, but as far as I know they only have mild steel flux cored wire available. Another big advantage of these two if that you can use them
outside in the wind where it will blow the shielding gasses away with the mig/tig/oxy.
At a guess, price for a cheap stick welder $80US and cheap gasless mig $200US.
Soooo... depends what you want to spend and what you want to weld!
(Note that when I say gasless mig im refereing to a mig running flux cored wire so not a mig at all, you just use it the same way)
Flake2m November 6th, 2003, 06:40 AM

How many types of welding are there?
I have heard of MiG welding, TiG welding, fusion welding and there are probaly others..
I know that MiG and TiG welding both involve the use of an inert gas like Argon.
What is the difference between the welding type?

ok, here we go...
Arc welding is anything that uses electricity, all welding here is fusion welding but most often given to oxy/acetylene welding.
Stick welding also called "manual metal arc welding" is where you use the flux covered rod, thats the cheap one people are refering to as an "arc welder" the weld gets covered by a hard layer of flux that must be
chipped off.
MIG (metal inert gas) is where an electrified wire is fed off a spool into the weld as its blown over from an inert gas to protect from oxidation, gasless mig is the same but the gas is substituted for a flux core which
is scrubbed off with a wire brush after the weld.
TIG (tungsten inert gas) uses a tungsten electrode that resists melting due to its high melting point, so you are only melting and joining the parent metal, though you can feed in wire like with an oxy if needed.
Oxy/Acetylene obviosly uses a hot flame to melt the melal and a filling rod to feed in metal to fill the weld, since you dont need electricity its portable.
Thats all that you would use at home, but there is a number of others mainly machine driven, such as spot welding which uses two electrodes on either side of the metal using the resistance through overlapping
sheets to fuse them together. lasers/electron beams are also used, friction welding is another specialised weld where the metal is spun so fast it melts into another piece. I think the four metioned are the only
ones you would actually have use for at home.
Oh, and dont forget thermite!

Don't forget explosive welding! :)

Flake2m, Fusion welding is just another name for Oxy/Acetylene welding, because the metal is fused together. It has nothing to do with atomic fusion if that's what you were thinking :( .
Aaron-V2.0 November 7th, 2003, 04:09 PM

Dont forget resistance welding. That's where you use an item that looks like a jaws of life with chainsaw handles, the two electrodes touch together and just melt the material together.
I believe it's used on steel 1/8" and smaller, though it's not a commonly taught welding skill.
IPN November 7th, 2003, 05:21 PM

Aaron-V2.0:
I think what that you are describing is just spot welding, used mostly to weld thin metal plates together
My favorite has always been stick welding, with it you can make very tough welds and no need to hassle with inert gasses. A welder capable of +250A can nicely handle over 5mm welding sticks and they give a strong weld :)
Although you can weld with a M IG w elder w ithout an inert gas but it tends to spit quite much and it doesnt make very clean and uniform weld
With an inert gas it works well and is excellent for quick weld jobs. :)
Aaron-V2.0 November 8th, 2003, 12:24 AM

Oop, your right IPN. Though the college course I learned it was reffered to it as resistance welding. Here's what is used.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45689
Flake2m November 8th, 2003, 12:33 AM

I know, I have done some welding but it was mainly with an oxy set. I have also done some spot welding. I would like to try doing some MiG or Stick welding but I dont have access to the gear and there are
dangers of "welding flashs" even if you do have all the safety gear.
jeffchem2000 November 10th, 2003, 11:57 AM

Also one that hasn't been mentioned is the original "welding". I think it is done by heating both bits of metal to be joined and then when they are glowing red hit them together with a hammer until they have fused. I
have seen this done with gold and I'm told it also works for Iron and other metals with high melting points.
Please correct me if any of it is wrong but as far as I know what I have said is correct.

You are describing forge welding. I believe the metal needs to be more like orange than red, and you need plenty of flux between the metal sufaces to carry off the oxides. There is also an immense shower of molten
slag ejected when you hammer the join. (sounds like fun to me!)
a_bab November 14th, 2003, 11:02 AM

As I can see, nobody said something about the water welders. These are devices which are producing a stoichiometric mix of H2 and O2 from water by the means of the electrolysis. There are remarcable
properties of the flame produced, like the ability of having a temperature up to 6,000 degrees C ! Now that's something usefull I would say.
Patents:
4,081,656 (http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4,081,656.WKU.&OS=PN/4,081,656&RS=PN/4,081,656)
4,014,777 (http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4,014,777.WKU.&OS=PN/4,014,777&RS=PN/4,014,777)
A description of the process here (http://www.lifenatural.com/browngas.htm)

A nice presentation of what this so-called "Brown gas" can do
here (http://www.spirig.com/products/microflaming/spirflame/overview/spirflame_overview.html)
The device seems to be rather simple to make; I guess I'll try it out.

Wouldn't there be a risk of a tremendous explosion unless the gases were collected seperately at each electrode?
In Oxy/Acetylene welding, the two gases are only mixed just before being burnt and only a few cc of the two gases is ever mixed at one time. The flame also draws some of it's oxygen from the atmosphere (this
stops the flame "burning back" up the handpiece).
If you take an Oxy/Acetylene welder and adjust the flame till it is the type of flame normally used for welding, then quickly turn the oxygen up, you will get a loud bang and the torch will go out, this is because there
was enough oxygen for the flame to burn back into the handpiece and cause a small explosion (fortuneately the handpiece is designed to withstand this and there is no danger involved) .
If you are using stoichometric ratios of hydrogen and oxygen, you will have to design your apparatus to collect them seperatel and then recombine them just before it burns them.
a_bab November 15th, 2003, 11:57 AM

If you'd read the references I linked, you'd understand that there is no risk. The "explosion" is in fact an implosion:
"Regarding the self-implosion characteristic of the gas, Dr. Ellyett noted, "If a spark plug is inserted in the gas and a spark passed, the gas immediately collapses to water with an 1860 to 1 reduction in volume.
This creates a near vacuum""
If you deal wit a strong enough case, it'll be fine. Actually, the water welders do implode sometimes; all the effect being a dull sound.

Ok then, just making sure that you knew about that.
It is definitely not an implosion in oxy/acetylene welders though, I have seen blobs of molten steel from the work thrown 5 - 10 metres (that's why we wear goggles and aprons :) ) by the blast when the flame
burns back inside the torch handle.
Tuatara November 16th, 2003, 04:13 AM

How could it possibly collapse like that when igntied? You're going from H2/O2 mix at room temp to steam at 2000C. You've only 2/3 the mols of steam, but the gas laws say your pressure will still jump by 60x.
Even allowing for condensation of the water after the event, I'd still put money on it breaking things.
Personally, no matter what the fringe scientists say, I'd keep the two gasses separate as long as possible.
Anthony November 16th, 2003, 09:29 AM

I agree. It's interesting but a bit suspicious.
How could a reaction (H2+O2) which releases large amounts of energy CONTRACT on completion? Where would all this energy have dissapeared to?
Also, why is any other mixture of H2/O2 dangerous to store together or compress, but a stoichiometric quantity dramatically safer? I see no logical explanation for this.
How could you patent the resulting gas mixture given off by normal electrolysis of water? Such experiments have been done for centuries, and as far as I know, you cannot patent something "obvious".
The fact that the article is trying to sell these units automatically makes me sceptical. What really does it in is the page on the same site offering "free electricity" by your own personal generator that runs on
permanent magnet technology (read perpetual motion bullshit).
I have wanted to create a H2/O2 generator/torch for some time and probably will do, although I'd seperate the gases.
Another thing I fail to understand from that article is why DC power must be used for the electrolysis cell when the gases are collecting together, why could AC be used, thus saving a rectification step?

Anthony, AC doesn't work well for electolysis, you need DC for it to work well (don't ask me why, it's one of those "it just does" things).
If AC worked properly for electrolysis, then all the worries about non corrodable anodes for chlorate production would have been solved long ago.
ossassin November 28th, 2003, 01:30 PM

What type of welding would be best for precise welding on firearms? What equipment would I need, and about how much would it cost? Sorry guys, I know nothing about welding. Thanks for the help!
xyz November 28th, 2003, 09:01 PM

I think that MiG and TiG are the most commonly used for firearms.
I only have experience with MiG though.
Jacks Complete December 1st, 2003, 11:04 AM

Cheap-ass spot welding seems to be common on a lot of the cheaper guns. It tends to be more precise than a MIG for beginners. It also lets you set it all up first, then zap, which a lot of MIG welders won't do.
This lets you be far more precise in your weld.
For info, you can spot weld with a MIG, and 'seam' weld with a Spot welder, but neither is optimal.
Unless you can get the MIG nozzle into the gap you want to weld, it isn't going to help. Also, MIG costs more than spot, and you need a lot more practise. If you are skilled, however, the MIG will do everything
better than a spot welder.
Don't forget that welds are good, but not as strong as good steel, as they are over-hard.
Most welds can be avoided by clever use of materials or bending/stamping/cutting operations.
Mike76251 January 3rd, 2004, 06:01 AM

Another thing that strikes me odd about that H20 welder is why on earth do you need 220v if it pulls such low current? (as they state in the comparsion section)
keith January 3rd, 2004, 06:08 PM

Mig welding can be used on almost any type of metal that can be welded. Ive welded Aluminum & steel personaly and have seen ppl welding other alloys. You simply buy diferent wire for AL or for steel or what ever
material your welding. And a good mig welder can handle 3/4" thick steel easily. It will melt all the way into it. Again thats only with a good one. mine cost about $1000
Anthony January 4th, 2004, 07:09 AM

Those things (assuming they're functional), would be pulling a hell of a lot of current. One of their models shows cables the size of garden hose for the low voltage DC supply. That's going to be hundreds of amps.
The mains draw will be a lot less, but probably at least 20+ amps.
Ammonal January 4th, 2004, 06:59 PM

I can vouch (sp?) for stick or ARC welding as it is the only welder I have at my disposal, it is only a cheapish AU$500 140amp mains welder and the trick I have found with it is to have a variety of rod sizes. I keep
1.25mm rods for small seams and thin walled pipe and tubing, 2.5mm for general welding of 2mm + thickness steel, and some 3.25 and 4.1mm for welding heavy materials up to about 6mm thickness.
My neighbour has a AU$1200 MIG welder and he recently bought some stainless wire for it, he already welds aluminum, steel, bronze, and most other metals with it to a high degree of quality. Yes MIG welders
can be easy to use but you cant always do with a MIG what you can with a stick welder. And as for TIG welding, it is just the duck's nuts when it comes to joing stuff together. Makes good weld done with a stick
welder look like the shittiest stuff you've ever seen in your life.
BTW I saw a plasma cutter being used for the first time the other day, some forks were being cut for a forklift and and the material was solid sheet 2" thick with the outline of each fork scribed onto the surface, the
guy with the plasma cutter moved through the steel like a hot knife through butter. If there was a way to remove a door or lock quickly it would be one of these! in half a minute the first fork was cut out and by a
minute the job was done.
As far as welding for the home chemist type goes, here in Australia there are these inverter type arc welders which do not have the high power of their bigger counterparts but they are priced at about AU$400 -
$600, which I would consider as being pretty affordable because they can run through a normal powerpoint (10amps around here) and come in a little case and are super portable. All you need to own is an extension
lead and an inverter arc welder and you can go anywhere.

Anthony, are you talking about MiG welders?
If so, the reason that the cable is so thick is because it has to carry the gas as well as the electricity, it is basically a gas line that also has the wire inside it.
Mike76251 January 5th, 2004, 02:09 AM

I think he is talking about those Brown Gas welders and not migs.

Yeah, Mike76251 was asking about the H2O welders.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Info on home made power supply wanted
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View Full Version : Info on home made power supply wanted

Does anybody out there have information on building a power supply to run an oven or furnace? I am looking for something that can run off of 110 AC current and put out
more than 10 amps. I have been searching the net for plans, but I have not found anything conclusive. I just want something simple, like the electronics of an oven or
hotplate. If anyone can steer me in the right direction I would appreciate it.
I am trying to build an inexpensive improvised tube furnace modeled somewhat after a kiln furnace. Fortunately kiln users have provided considerable do-it-yourself
information, except where it comes to the heater. I have acquired an inexpensive temperature controller on Ebay and I found some wiring diagrams to hook it up. Add a couple
of relays, some switches, and an outlet and this will be a quite spiffy thermometer.
The temperature controller is also a digital thermometer. You wire up a thermocouple to it and set it for a specific temperature. The addition of a relay controls a plug
outlet into which your furnace is plugged in. This plug stays on when the temperature is below the limit and off when the temperature gets too high. The actual
temperature controller is way more complicated than that, but that is the jist. It can be programmed to ramp up the temperature at a certain rate, it has dual alarms in
case your temp goes too high or too low, and some other stuff Ill never use.
I was thinking if I can t build my own power supply that I will buy some cheap hot plates and rip off the elements and just use the electronics. 3 hotplates should give
me enough power to run 3 separate heating elements giving me 3 zones on my tube furnace. These would be cranked up to high and plugged into my controller which turns
them on and off as necessary. An old electric stove might work as well.
I will likely be using some kanthal wire as my heating element. I will coat a 12 inch stainless steel pipe with some fireplace cement and let that harden. Next I will wrap the
kanthal wire around the pipe in spiral fashon, probably in 3 separate sections if I use 3 different hotplate controls, or if I can build a big enough PS myself. Finally another
coating of cement is applied to seal in the wire and affix it to the pipe. The first coat of cement is necessary to prevent an electrical contact between the pipe and the wire.
I will leave a small hole for my thermocouple in the center of the tube. I found a cheap supplier where I can get a 2 or 3 inch length of grounded stainless steel enclosed
thermocouple with 12 inches of lead wire all for $11. This arrangement actually measures the temperature of the pipes exterior, so I will have to calibrate it with my other
digital thermometer to see what the difference between the surface temp and interior temp is. I doubt it will be off by more than 15-30 degrees C.
Total cost may be pushing $100 by the end of all this. That is damn cheap considering the cheapest I have ever seen a tube furnace is $700. The most expensive part
is the temperature controller, but I got a damn good deal on Ebay for one that retails at $120. I got mine for of that. Buying the relays that can handle line current
will likely run me another $20. Wire, switches and terminals will cost a bit more, and I may want to get an enclosure, so that could be another $10. The wildcard is the
price of the power supply, three new hotplates or an old oven might add up, thats why I figure it may be cheaper to build one myself.
Ollie Snowie November 29th, 2003, 05:30 AM

What is it for, exactly? Does the temperature need to be very tightly controlled? How big does it need to be?
I have taken a temp. controller from an electric cooker apart, and there is no temperature sensor that goes to the main heating element; just a small heating element in the
temp. regulator. I suppose they are in series so they both get hotter and colder in time with each other, and this is good enough for an electric cooker.
If it doesn't need to have a large diameter, bar heaters are a possibility because they are hollow if you remove the end caps. They are a bit brittle though, but as long as the
wire stays on, it tends to stop them falling apart even if they do fracture. I have found that the disk shaped heating elements in hotplates do give a fairly uniform temp; I have
managed to anneal some pieces of glass up to 4cm from end to end and some 3cm circles without them cracking. I suppose disk shaped elements are of no use to you though.
A fairly whacky idea I've never tried myself would be to get several bar heater elements, make parabolic reflectors for them and put the tube slightly off the focal point so as
to get more uniform heating.
I've also found that bar heating elements burn out very quickly when used in a furnace where the heat is trapped and the temp. is much higher, but electric hob elements are
very resistant, probably due to the coating, so I would advise you to put another layer of fire cement or something over the wire.

I don't understand what you mean by 'power supply'. Can you not set your elements up to run directly from 110VAC ? Thats how most ovens are set up - simple on/off
thermostat and a mains relay connected to an element.
Do you need to use stainless? If you were to use quartz tube you could wind your heater directly onto the tube, then insulate with mineral wool. The only fireplace cement I've
used had fairly poor thermal conductivity. In fact, if you were to obtain a quartz heater element (the 'glass' type with a wire inside) you can remove the wire (which will be
nichrome) then re wrap it around the outside of the tube. The wire size and length should be about right for direct connection to 110V. You don't need Kanthal unless you're
planning to go well over 1000C, and stainless wont hold up at that temp (neither will quartz).
If you were to provide some specifications for your tube furnace we might have some more ideas to help you (like size, temperature, power etc)

I was laying in bed last night thinking I could just run the heating elements directly from line current, but it cant be that easy can it? I am thinking there must be more
to heater controls than that, of course I dont know. If someone could provide an example way to set that up this is exactly what I am looking for. My temperature
controller will turn it on and off, I just need it to run.
I dont want to use a porcelain (quartz or ceramic) tube for matters of convenience. It is easier to connect a pipe with threaded fittings. Although I will have to consider
it because a ceramic tube would offer some chemical resistence as well as a way to swap out ruined heating elements if I just wrap them around the tube and cover them with
some fire brick. There is just the problem of sealing the ends up without permanently sealing it.
Indeed I dont need kanthal, but I havent really found any better wire. Kanthal sells many dif ferent kinds of wire and the prices are not that high.
I am looking to operate the tube furnace from 400-800 degrees C. Most of the time it will be running around 500 C, with the occasional need for 800 C, but I would like it to go
up to 1000 if need be. I would only rarely run it that high if ever, even 800 C would be pushing it.
The size is as I mentioned, 12 inches long, maybe a few inches less since I have to leave the threaded ends open. I will probably use or inch diameter pipe, I forget what
I have.
I will use a thin layer of cement to protect the pipe surface and prevent electrical contact, so its low thermal conductivity should not matter. I will pack a thicker layer on the
outside to keep the heat in. If someone can suggest a cement with better thermal conductivity I would like to use it for the inner layer.
Tuatara November 30th, 2003, 04:53 AM

Yes, it really is that easy! For 110VAC, 10A you need a heater resistance of about 11 Ohms - just simple Ohm's law (V= I x R). That will give you about 1kW. As the element
heats up the resistance will increase somewhat, so it will self-regulate to some extent.
While I was out digging potatoes today another problem occured to me. The thermal expansion coefficients of the SS and the cement wont match, so after a couple of cycles
the cement is going to come loose - not what you want with a live element. You may need to buy straight, sheathed elements and bend them to the shape you want. This is
how hob and oven elements are made. The elements will take a fairly tight bend, but not 3/4". So you would need a number of short straign elements which could then be
bound to the tube using steel wire. The elements themselves consist of a thin incoloy tube, packed with refractory powder (MgO IIRC), with the wire heater held firmly in the
centre and nicely insulated from the sheath.
How about a ceramic tube with standard ground taper joints? ($$$$!)
McGuyver December 1st, 2003, 02:16 AM

There is a company that sells flexible heating elements that you can wrap around w/e you want. I believe it works off of 110 VAC too.
Well, did a little search and here is the site: heating element (http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=16&category=155)
Now if you need something to control the heat you'll need some kinda potentimeter (sp?) or I guess you could just take one off of some stove.
I don't know if it will be powerful enough for you though because it only draws 90 watts. Yeah I doubt it but I don't think it's possible to have it flexible with more power than
that.
Ah, farther down that page there is a iron element that gets much hotter too bad it doesn't wrap around. Maybe if you bought a bunch though it would work.
megalomania December 1st, 2003, 04:49 PM

I am pretty sure I will be using Kanthal AF wire, which is good for a variety of reasons. First of all it is quite bendable, it is just wire after all. It has known properties of
resistence, thermal expansion, and max temperature handling. It also has quite a long use life, especially at the temperatures I will be running it.
I will be hitting the junkyard sometime soon to acquire myself an old oven. I should be able to acquire it for a few dollars.
My current trouble is figuring out the amperage of household current. I have learned most house fuses are rated at 20 amp. I also now know my furnace should be able to
handle up to 3000 watts. At 110 V and 20 amps I need a resistence wire of 5.5 ohms (110V/20A = 5.5, V/I=R). Kanthal AF is 0.649 ohm/foot at 19 gauge, so I will need about
8.5 feet of wire. That assumes I know the amps, which I don't.
Hopefully once I get the oven taken apart I will be able to see how it works. I would prefer to just plug the resistence wire in to line current, but I still need to find out the
ampage to get the resistence wire length right. Anybody know how to regulate the number of amps?
I don't know where the watts fit in exactly, but as far as I can gleen from my kiln books a small kiln needs about 3000 W for 3-4 cubic feet. Since mine is a fraction of that my
2200 W system should be fine (110V X 20amp = 2200W, V x I = W).
grendel23 December 2nd, 2003, 08:17 AM

You seem to have a handle on Ohm's law, that will give you all the info you need to select the correct impedance for your heater. If you want 2000W, more than enough
IMHO, P/V=I, so 2000/120=16.66A. Then V/I =R, so 120/16.66=7.2ohms
That part is easy, and luckily, so is the rest. Use a solid state relay to control the heater. A unit rated at 25A and 240V can be had new for about $30 and often scrounged for
much less. I have several and would be willing to send you one if you like.
Most of these use a control voltage of 3-32 volts DC to control them, easy to interface to your thermostat.
If you really wanted to get fancy you could use a phase control regulator, but that would be overkill for your application. You are better off selecting a heater, or the correct
length of nichrome wire to get the wattage you want, then using a simple on/off controller for temperature control.

Megalomania,
I can see from your post that you are a little confused about the whole mains powered thing. Might I suggest that you be really, really careful with your oven, as touching the
elements, etc. will probably kill you with the circuit you describe! (You know this, but it bears repeating.) A liquid or metal powder spill could cause a conduction path back to
the tongs you are holding, and to you. Try to get a well-sealed element from an oven, or make yours sealed. I wouldn't want to trust loose type glass fibre with my life.
The issue with household mains is that, circuitwise, you treat it like a constant voltage source. From V=IR you can see that as the resistance drops to zero, the current reaches
infinity. This is what we have fuses for, to avoid destroying the wires!
Wire a slow-blow fuse into the circuit on the live side, rated at whatever you decide to run your oven at.
Basically, you want to pick any arbitary current below the fuse rating, plug it into the formula with whatever the line voltage is where you are, and then from the resistance you
determine the length of wire you want.
You can work backwards from the power, or forwards. Use P=IV (= I^2 R) and determine the power you are going to be putting out, or work from the power you want to
determine the current draw you want, and hence the wire length, as described by grendel23.
Anyway, try not to kill yourself, as I really like your forum!
Edit: Sorry, some of this might seem a bit condesending. It isn't meant to be.
Tuatara December 2nd, 2003, 05:09 PM

A couple of extra notes: 110VAC is a nominal rating. Line voltage is usually controlled to +10% -15%. So work everything our based on 122V and you should be fine.
Also if you are going to use a metal pipe it would be adviseable to wire it to safety earth. Ask your local sparky about the line supply in your area, as you may or may not have
an earth connection available in your house. Here in NZ we have three-pin outlets - live, neutral and earth.
Choose your power according to your heat needs - how much heat energy to you need to supply to your reaction, how much are you going to lose through the insulation. The
power/size guide for kilns is just that - a guide. The better your insulation the less power you need, although warm-up time also becomes an issue with a kiln.
If you can find some heat resistant fibre or cloth to wrap your tube in first, that should keep your element clear and electrically insulated. I initially thought of fibreglass, but
that would melt at 800C. Asbestos would work, but I doubt you could get any these days. Have you a local kiln supplier, whose brains you could pick?

I have cracked open an old heater and probed its inner reaches. There is nothing to it really. There is a 3-prong cord that ends in 3 wires, one of which is grounded to the metal
case. The second attaches to the heaters variable control dial. The dial is set to off at the lowest and high at the highest with a 180-degree turn between them. This knob
controls the temperature. The third wire connects to a switch with goes from 1300 watts to 1500 watts (says a label on the front). The other end of the knob connects to a fan
that circulates air, and then the wire exits the fan and connects to a series of heating elements. The third wire also connects to the elements at the other end of the circuit.
Obviously the only important piece of hardware here is the dial. Does this control the voltage or the amount of amps? Anyone know anything about knobs? Or maybe that watt
switch controls the current somehow?

The knob is probably a thermostat. The high/low wattage switch works by controling the current. This is done by changing the resistance of the circuit with the heating
element- Could be done by switching a resistor into series with the element, or switching part of the resistance element into/out of the circuit. Raising the resistance of the
series with the element would cut down the wattage-
power(watts) = volts X current (amps)
volts = current X resistance (ohms)
current = volts / resistance
Tuatara December 11th, 2003, 08:12 PM

If its a thermostat you will probably hear it 'click' at some point as you turn the knob through its range. The click will be at a slightly different point turning one way, compared
to the other. The thermostat does not control either current or voltage, as such, merely turning the elements on or off according to the temperature it measures.
The other kind of control, commonly found on electric hobs, is called an 'energy regulator'. All it does is switch on and off at a reasonably constant rate, the energy throughput
being controlled by the ratio of 'on' time to 'off' time - which is adjusted with the control knob.
udtst December 15th, 2003, 04:21 AM
A cool loking little generator which you might be able to use is Tom E. Bearden's MEG (Motionless Electromagnetic Generator) project.
he is a link to it: http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/megv21.htm
to me it looks like it should work. I am going to try and build it within the next few weeks.
Ollie Snowie December 15th, 2003, 01:14 PM

Nawwwwww,,,
Don't want to go down the road of "free energy" when all you want is a furnace power supply.
Cool, yes (if it's not a hoax - we'll be delighted if your model does work!).
Relevant, practical, no.
matjaz January 4th, 2004, 08:47 AM

Mega, your knowledge on chemistry being so intimidating, it's a profound pleasure to see you less confident in another area, hehe! :)
I agree with everything Tuatara said. A 1000-2000 W regulated power supply would be too big, too expensive and too dangerous for mass production in kitchen appliances. All
this things just use line juice and a form of a smart on-off switch in series. The regulation is always acomplished with time management of on/off and not with a continuous
regulation of current.
One sleak option would be a light dimmer with a stronger triac. This would work, but at the cost of a lot of EM smog in your powerline, since switching 20A 120 times per
second is sort of dirty. And there's no need for such a rapid response, because the heat capacity of the kiln takes a lot of time to heat/chill anyway.
As for electrical insulation, ceramic beads could be used on the resistive wire. I have a couple of those in a huge old soldering iron. They are tiny cylinders, 5mm (.2") long and
2mm (.1") in diameter, with a hole drilled down the axis. They would fit very loosely on the wire, even rattle a bit actually, and the wire can be then dressed in these and
wrapped around whatever.
If you need a high temperature in your kiln, remember that the thin heating wire will be much hotter than the temperature you need inside the chamber. I just has to squeeze
all that power through its very limited surface. An oven heating element is designed to dissipate its 1500W inside a 200C cabinet. In your kiln, it will have to dissipate the same
power into a place which will already be at 400C-800C or whatever. So, it would have a much higher temperature itself. Any additional cement on it, and it gets even worse,
because you thermally insulate the heater wire.
Bert, switching on and off some of the heater element resistance is feasible, so is changing the configuration from serial to parallel. But inserting a resistor in series is completely
out. The heat load on this resistor would be similar to that on the heating element itself.
McGuyver, this flexible heat wraps are very handy, but usually can't tolerate extremely high temperatures. (We sometimes use them to bake beamlines to improve the
vacuum.)
Udtst, this MEG is a fancy high voltage generator and the circuit seemes reasonable, but it doesn't produce more power than what is fed in. So no free lunch. Surprisingly? ;)

I am actually going to build a device similar to the one described here: http://toblerglasscreations.com/fuji/ I already have the temperature controller and the rest is easily
enough obtained. Since this device will do the actual on/off switching all I need then is something to deliver maximum power. A dimmer switch is actually a good idea that I
shall consider.
I doubt I will find oven or heater components to supply enough power in one unit, but I can always get more than one. I think three 20 amp heating coils would provide
effective heating. Most kilns or tube furnaces use such three zone heating systems anyway.
Now I just need to know how to consistently provide 20 amps of power. I do know that the thickness of the heating element does affect the temperature, that's why I need to
know how many amps I can get to choose the proper thickness for my temperature needs.
I was thinking about making a concrete mold with grooves that I can lay the wire in, like a kiln, and then cover that with a thick layer of alumina. I could lay in the pipe, cover
that with more alumina, and close a top portion made like the bottom. This would give me two heating zones, a top and bottom, the alumina would provide electrical insulation
as well as being heat resistent, the grooved cement molds would allow the heating element to expand, and the element would be easily replaceable if it ever burned out. Such
a setup would also allow me to easily swap different catalyst pipes instead of cleaning the thing out each time as would have to be done in an embedded system. This design
is actually how modern tube furnaces work.
I wonder if I could apply the alumina as a slightly moistened paste and burn it in gently to drive off the moisture, but stay a solid mass? I suppose I could also use a bit of
modeling clay. I mention alumina simply because I happen to have a bunch not doing anything in my lab. I could also likely use dry concrete, mortar, or lime. In fact using lime
may actually be better because it would be a nice byproduct to produce CaO after each furnace run (from my Ca(OH)2 and CaCO2 mix).
matjaz January 5th, 2004, 05:57 PM

I feel that you still want to have some sort of a power supply somewhere? That's not what I wanted to suggest - the dimmer was my inferior alternative to a temperature
controller, not an addition. Temperature controller is way better. You will feed the heaters directly from line power. That's just the way it goes most reliably. The maximum
power will be set by the resistance of the heater wire.
Can you tell me the following:

- what will be the dimensions of the kiln (pipe length, thickness, door design)
- will you be heating rods, chunks, dust, liquids?
We need that info to calculate the maximum power demands and to think chamber design. After we have established that, we can go into electrical design, since that depends
on the current that we'll be switching. At that point, we'll need to know:
- what kind of temp. controller you have (either a model number or detailed specs (power demand, switching specs))
- what line voltage you have (110, 220?) and what is the rated amperage of your line supply (with heaters it is easy to exceed the rated power as allowed by your electricity
provider)
A mold with grooves is a good idea if you plan to build your own heating element. But expect your cement to fracture and fall away from the metal pipe after a few uses. We'll
need to think a way to keep the wire from touching the pipe.
Bert January 6th, 2004, 04:13 PM

matjaz-
(We sometimes use them to bake beamlines to improve the vacuum.)
I cut my teeth in electronics fabrication, machineing and a number of other technical endeavors on the Aladdin synchrotron ring project (http://www.src.wisc.edu/Outreach/
materials/Brochure.pdf) at the U. of Wisconsin's Physical Science Labs. Where are you baking your beam lines? (This is OT, of course- Please contact me off list if you want to!)

Mega- I have looked up to you as a father figure in chemistry and its related occupations.I am going to learn as much as possible from you, and hopefully, become a well
respected member of The Forum.
Has anyone thought of an oven as a source of the heating element? Some can go up to 650 degrees Fahrenheit. I dont know if that will work for you but you could give it a
chance. As for everything else, I cant help you much. Just tryin to help
[edit: grammer problem]
matjaz January 22nd, 2004, 05:04 AM

Because you admire his chemistry you expect to become a respected member? :p
Sorry if I've misinterpreted you, just couldn't resist...:) No offense meant.
CommonScientist January 22nd, 2004, 05:06 PM

Ignore matjaz's last post , I had to edit something that he so wonderfully pointed out to me. Sorry. No offense taken.
hodio January 22nd, 2004, 05:56 PM

A good power supplier i use for metal casting is an electric welter (i have one up to 100 amp)
and you can move from 20A to 100A turnig an handgrip, it has also (very handy) a overheating switch in case you are using too much power.You just have to plug the two
wires to your resistence and regulate the intensity as you wish.The only problem?..like always the price!
I paid mine about 60$ but i was lucky,you dont need a new or very good one so maybe a second hand will do the trick.Anyway it is always a nice tool for building your own
stuff.
megalomania January 22nd, 2004, 08:35 PM

While an oven element may be an initial first choice, the lack of flexibility of the elements rather limits their usefulness. They can be quite brittle if you try to unwind them, if
that can even be done without some access to tools. They are so thick that they really don't provide the temperature necessary for many applications.
Now then, if one were going to make a round bottom type heater of a large size I would say they would be useful. I plan to make a rather large heater for a metal reactor that
only needs to reach 120 degrees C thereabouts. An oven heating element in this case should work fine.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Testing Explosive Properties
and Perform a n c e
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Axt D e c e m ber 1st, 2003, 10:48 AM

Heres a few m ethods ive used, or at least determ ined to be usable for determ ining the properties and perform a n c e o f
h o m e m a d e e x p l o s i v e s . A l l a r e e a s y t o m ake using no hard to get parts.
Drop Test
<img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com /images/Droptest.jpg" align="right">This rig I po sted before,

m easures the im pact sensitivity of explosives by letting a standard weight fall from varying distances until detonation occurs.
Constructed by using a cylindrical "ham m er" that slides down a pipe. This is still best as a relative m e a s u r e m e n t , a s t h e
distance will vary between rigs using differing ham mer surface areas, friction down the pipe and construction materials,
t h e r e f o r e t e s t t h e e x p l o s i v e a n d c o m p a r e r e s u l t s o n a s t a n d a r d e x p l o s i v e t e s t e d o n t h e s a m e rig, construction is best viewed
in the m ovie.<a href="http://geocities.com/rog u e m o v i e 3/">Movie Available</a>.
W itness Plate Test
<img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com / i m a g e s / l e a d p late.jpg" align="right">Do n e b y d e t o n a t i n g t h e

explosive in the vacinity of a m etal plate, ideally to crater the plate rather then denting or blowing a hole through it. For this a
l e a d block placed on a soild steel surface is the best, the picture shows the effect of three ANNM charges (NM soaked prills)
c o n t a i n e d i n 2 0 m m PVC detonated with varying detonator placement up the charge, the results show that the 20mm column
was below the critical diametre of the explosive. This isnt to be confused with the "lead block test" that uses a known weight of
explosive detonated inside a hole drilled into the block.<a href="http://geocities.com /roguem ovie3/">Movie Available</a>.
Effective Peak Pressure Test
<img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com /images/pressurerig.jpg" align="right">By detonating the explosive

underwater inside a steel vessel, water is injected into a pipe, pushing the water colum n up which com presses the air. This
pressure rise i s g a u g e d b y a s i m p l e t y r e p r e s s u r e g a u g e a t t h e t o p a s t h e s e a r e r e a d i l y a v a i l a b l e a n d h o l d t h e p e a k p r e s s u r e
m e a s u r e m ent. Again, this figure is only relative for com parison with other exposive tested in the sam e r i g . T h e o n e i n t h e
picture was constructed out of 1/4" steel, thoug h the flat base has been bent out a bit by 3 gram charges of PETN. So the
base, which will be a lot weaker then the curved sides should be made a lot thicker, at least 1/2" with the 3g charges.<a
href="http://geocities.com /roguem ovie3/">Movie Available</a>.
C asing Fragm entation Test
<img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com / i m a g e s / f r a g m ents.jpg" align="right">By determining the size of the

fragm ents of casing recovered after a detonation its possible to determine the sh attering power of the explosive, use a
suitable casing such as the brass cartridge case as shown in the picture, the charge is placed in a solid vessel containing water
o r s a n d a n d d e t o n a t e d , t h e f r a g m ents are reco vered by pouring the m ix through a sieve.
All g ive relative figures, so testing one explosive alone using any individual m ethod will be meaningless, at least two
e x p l o s i v e s m ust be u sed to get a relative figure. Post your testing methods and/or results!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Velocity of detonation determination methods?
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Several people have made claims in various threads here as to vod of substances they've made. When pressed, at least one admitted he'd just guessed, using as a basis the
amount of damage caused to a target compared to that caused by another substance with a published vod available- (See Maniak's posts in the Plastickexplosives (http://
www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127&perpage=50&highlight=plastick&pagenumber=2) thread)
I've seen two methods of determining vod- one by using a loop of det cord of a known vod with the ends placed against a length of the material to be measured for vod a
known distance apart, the vod is calculated by the offset from the center of the loop of det cord that the shockwaves from the explosion fronts meet, which can be found by
placing the loop of det cord on a lead sheet and observing the placement of the deeper dent caused the meeting of the two converging shock waves.
The second method is basically the same, but uses a length of shock tube instead of det cord and no lead witness plate is required- The shock tube will burst at the point where
the two shock waves meet, the measurement of offset may be taken directly from the remains of the fired length of shock tube.
These methods require a column of explosive large enough to sustain a detonation, and the first measurement must be far enough from the point of initiation for the shock
wave to have "settled down" to an even speed. They're somewhat dependant on the containment of the charge and diameter of the column too, which is why you may see
that data included in tables of measurements in CPOE & etc.
Can anyone suggest other methods? Most particularly, ones that would not require commercial det cord or shock tube, nor other equipment that isn't both fairly cheap, easy to
haul out to the woods and widely available (portable oscilloscopes and high speed triggering mechanisms would not do).
As an aside, what is state of the art in current commercial and military practice?
(edit)
My first idea is to adapt a cheap, portable commercial sky screen type chronograph. Haven't completely figured out the triggering though, and I'm just guessing that one of
these would be capable of measuring speeds in the range necessary. In my preliminary scheme, the charge would be set midway between the screens and a projectile
attached to the sample in two places a known distance apart. Ideally, they would then be blown through the sensor areas of the two screens at a time interval equal to the
time necessary for the shock wave to progress between the two points, assuming equal distance to the sensors and equal velocities imparted to the projectiles. The placement
between sensors would be easy, equal velocities being imparted is a BIG assumption with no way to check... And in the higher vod's, some engineering might be needed to
keep the projectiles from merely being shattered.
Anyone else got any ideas?

I have a book that I am going to scan about determining detonation velocity. I had to send it back since I damaged my camera, but I will be getting it again soon. There are at
least a good dozen methods in there, maybe more. I just skimmed the book myself. I do remember reading that bit about the 2 pieces of det cord, very nifty that. The book is
well illistrated and not really deep into technobabble, it is quie practical. Lets see if I can remember some, there is the lead block expansion test, the electrostatic discharge test,
the sand box test, ahh I can't really remember anymore. The book includes methods of testing sensitivity as well. It's only about 400 pages or so.

I'm familiar with lead block cavity expansion and lead cylinder compression tests as measures of relative power and speed, and a sand crushing test as a measure of brissance
as described in Tenney Davis' CPOE. The det cord vod measure is also there, they've got several other vod measures that pre-date modern electronics but wouldn't be suitable
for your average amateur's use. Looking forward to more info- thanks!
grendel23 December 22nd, 2003, 02:09 AM

What is needed is a way to measure short intervals of time.
The easiest way would be to use an oscilloscope, even a old crappy one would do. If you don't have access to one, but have some skill in electronics, you could set up a 1Mhz
oscillator and a counter, set up with two fine wires embedded in the charge a known distance apart, one to start the counter, one to stop it. Easy if you know a bit of digital
electronics.

Using piezo elements (as in piezo buzzers) embedded in the charge might be better. I suspect a wire would take too long to break.
You could also put the piezos at the ends of two water filled tubes, using the water tubes like the det cord Bert mentioned. That way you might get to keep the piezos !
Come to think of it, even ordinary RG58 co-ax exhibits the piezo effect. The detonation shock wave should be plenty strong enough to get a decent signal. For those who don't
believe, and have an oscilloscope, try this little experiment - set your scope up for DC trigger, just above zero, then whack your scope probe against the desk. See what
happens?
T_Pyro December 22nd, 2003, 10:19 PM

A simple counter would be simply a crystal oscillator using CD4020BC (1 MHz should be accurate enough, I think, like grendel23 stated), which provides a clock pulse for a 32
bit ripple counter. The oscillator could be enabled by a "start" pulse, and disabled using a "stop" pulse. An SR Flip-Flop would be useful for this.
A piezo element sounds like a good idea, but since I've not used one in this way, I'm not sure whether it would be effective on its own. A digital circuit like the one outlined
above would require perfect square wave pulses to work properly, but the piezo crystal might not be able to provide an exact pulse. If that's the case, an LM555 monostable
oscillator triggereed by the piezo elemnt would be required to provide the neccessary "start" an "stop" pulses.

Edge triggered logic would handle the crazy pulse from the piezo. The main thing would be using a schottky diode clamp on the signal - hitting a piezo with a shockwave would
likely generate a multi kV pulse :D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > safe testing procedures
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KAROMESIS January 13th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 5 : 5 4 P M

I have searched all forum s for specific inform ation reguarding safes and I found none with reguards to testing procedures fo r
s a f e s and what is specifically used in those procedures.so I took it upon m yself to look it up on the www:D I found testing
p r o c e d u r e s f o r s a f e s a n d e v e n f o u n d t h e a m o u nt of explosive used in gram s, specific den sity ect. I found that the letters in
front of a safe describe the safes resistance to certain types of attacks for exam ple a TL-15 safe is tool resistant for 15
m inutes the TL standing for tool a TR TL-30 is tool and torch resistant for 30 minutes TX stands for explosive resistant, hence
this threads relevance to the forum ;) the m a x i m u m e x p l o s i v e u s e d o n a T X T L - 6 0 x 6 m e a n i n g t o r c h , t o o l a n d e x p l o s i v e
resistant for 60 m inutes on all six side s o f t h e s a f e ( t h e r e i s o n l y o n e s a f e m anufacturer in the world that m a k e s t h i s l e v e l o f
s a f e ) the m a x i m u m e x p l o s i v e u s e d i s 5 0 0 g o f P E T N a l t h o u g h m ost safe s during testing don't even use ha lf this amount.
there was also another type of testing for explosive resistance and they used 4 oz of nitro glycerin in two seperate charges for a
total of 8 oz used.:)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Passive Immersion Cooling of Electronics
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Anthony February 22nd, 2004, 09:18 AM

Waaaaay of topic...
Wanting an interesting and silent way to cool a PC, I elected to build a sealed case and submerge the motherboard in oil...
However, one doing some more reading on t'internet, I read a few reports that capacitors (I'm guessing electrolytic) are sensitive to even changes in air humidity, and that
immersing them will allow the coolant to migrate into the capacitor and destroy it.
Obviously this would be a bit of a bummer if it killed my new motherboard :(
I know we've got a few members who are very knowledgeable when it comes to electronics, and am wondering if they've got any input on submerging electronics in oil?
Flake2m February 22nd, 2004, 10:08 AM

well I have seen a website where a guy submergered his pII 266 into oil. The heatsink fan even circulated the oil around the tub.
However he didn't have the HDD and CD drive in the oil as HDD need air intake and Oil in CD drive would have stuffed it up.
I wouldn't try immersion cooling with a brand new system. You could try a water cooling setup. The better water cooling setups require significant case modifaction as the
radiator is often 2 big to fit in the case.
Anthony February 22nd, 2004, 01:02 PM

Obviously the drives aren't meant to go in the oil :)
The idea is that with the mobo and PSU submerged, there is no need for fans, thus the PC is practically silent. A submersible pump in the oil would keep up a circulation to
prevent hotspots. The tank would radiate a certain amount of heat, possibly enough to allow continuous operation. If not, the high thermal mass of the oil would allow
operation up to a certain duty cycle (I don't tend to run my PC continuously).
I've seen the experiment you mention, along with a few others. However, they all say "yeah, here's a pic of what I did, do I not rule?", but neglect to state anything about
reliability! Only one that did, mentioned that the PSU died after three days due to a blown capacitor...
There are more suitable coolants than oil. Mainly "Flourinert", a coolant made by 3M and used in applications such as the Cray supercomputers. Trouble is, it costs $500 a
gallon!
I've considered traditional watercooling, but most systems just tend to move the fan from the CPU to the radiator. I suppose I could use a heatexchanger to boost the water
tend and run it through an oversized radiator and use no fan.
Ideally, I'd run watercooling with the reservior buried a few feet underground outside of the house, no fans, no radiators, no heat exchangers. Not practical in the house I'm in
though.
Also, immersion cooling would cool *everything*. There are plenty of components that get quite hot on mobos/expansion cards. Conventional watercooling does nothing for
this, and air cooling doesn't do much.
Tuatara February 22nd, 2004, 04:44 PM

A lot of components are capapable of absorbing small amounts of moisture, ceramic capacitors being one of the worst. And there will be a lot of ceramic caps on a PC mobo. Oil
cooling should work fine, so long as you use the right sort of oil, ie NOT car engine oil. One of the silicone oils should work - Dow Corning do a lot of different silicones (not
$500 a litre either!) get in touch with them and see if they can recommend something suitable. If you're concerned about component damage, try overcoating the PCB with a
conformal lacquer first - available in spray form at most electronics hobbyist shops.
vulture February 22nd, 2004, 06:05 PM

Ever thought of Argon gas? Protects your contacts from oxidation and has far better heat conduction (noble gas) than normal air.
Ofcourse, airtight seal would be required.
SF6 could be used too.
Anthony February 22nd, 2004, 08:21 PM

Maybe try gases next time, Vulture ;) One step at a time...
Thanks Tuatara, that was exactly the kind of answer I was looking for :) Good call on the motor oil, a cheap bottle of that was going to be my first try.
I've had a look on Dow Corning's website (under "silicone fluid") and they do some nice thin ones e.g. 0.65 and 1 cts, but they're as volatile as acetone, with a flashpoint of -
3*C! The thinest non-volitile one is 20cts, which should be good. I'd like it to be as thin as possible to aid pumping. From the few distributers I've found, price seems to be
about 4.50/kg. Might have to revise the design to cut the volume down!
Some kind of spray laquer was also something I considered. I imagine it'd be a bitch if it got onto unshorted jumpers or into expansion sockets. Careful masking might be
called for.
At least I dismissed parafin oil and deionised/distilled water from the outset. "pure water wouldn't be conductive", I thought. Yeah, untill it came into contact with anything
metallic and became re-ionised! Not to mention corrosive.
Tuatara February 22nd, 2004, 10:51 PM

Glad to be of assistance! Thinking about it, synthetic motor oil might be a starter - you'd want to try it on an old mobo first though. I discounted motor oil initially as you don't
know whats in it - could be all sorts of crap capable of dissolving epoxy and other plastics.
If you're on a really tight budget, and not afraid of toxic nasties, I bet you could scrounge some old transformer oil for free (you're not afraid of poly chlorinated biphenols are
you?).
Gas will never be as good as liquid, and as for SF6 - well if you can afford that you can afford the fancy 3M shit!
Bert February 23rd, 2004, 11:12 AM

Ever thought of Argon gas? Protects your contacts from oxidation and has far better heat conduction (noble gas) than normal air.
Ofcourse, airtight seal would be required.
SF6 could be used too.
If Argon is a superior heat conductor, why was I taught to use it to inflate my dry suit and told it had superior insulating value by my diveing instructors. Here's A link regarding
Argon (http://www.decompression.org/maiken/Why_Argon.htm) Helium would be an excellent candidate as far as thermal properties go, but good luck trying to retain it in a
home made enclosure!
vulture February 23rd, 2004, 11:34 AM
Odd, normally all noble gasses are good heat conductors.

I was going to attach a small PDF on the physical properties of various CFC and HCFC's which might be useful for your liquid cooling project, anthony, pgp'd to your key, but
attachments seems to be not available anymore. :confused: Anyways, find a copy on Rhodium's site.
I beelieve automotive A/C refrigerant, it's either HCFC 141b or 131, would bee useable, as both are liquids at room temp/non-flammable/cheap. :) Mainly cheap. Though they
often have oils/anti-corrosion/other additives mixed in, so you may have to distill them to purify them before they'd be safe to use on a motherboard.
Oh, and if you have an old one, DEFINATELY test this on the old board beefore risking some fine new piece of gleaming techno-lust. ;)
With room temp fluorocarbons, you could set up a very long tube from your case up a wall or such to act as an air condensor and, assuming that your room temp never
exceeeds the BP of the refrigerant, the coolant will condense and flow back into the case.
Flake2m February 24th, 2004, 11:59 AM

In one of the experiment I saw on te 'net the guy used ordinary cooking oil. The stuff that cost 1 euro a Litre. If you kept the heatsinks on the CPU the the fan will circulates to
oil which woulds save you the trouble of having to buy a pump.
Also I wonder if there would be improvement in effiecentcy if oil was used instead of water for a water cooling setup? It would be also intresting to try methylated spirits and
some other non-conventional cooling agents.

Water is particularly good because of its high specific heat, and low viscosity - both of which are essential to good heat transfer. High specific heat means lower flow rates can
be used, and low viscosity means easier to pump, but more importantly a thinner boundary layer around the parts you are trying to cool. Read a fluid mechanics book if you
want to know what a boundary layer is.
Its also non-toxic, and cheap! :D

I should have added to my last post that I'm sure I have an old 486 *somewhere* which will be a guinea pig :)
Yeah, I've heard of the nasties that can form in transformer oil!
I was under the impression that fully synthetic motor oil was quite pricey, but having had a look, it seems to be 20 a gallon. Which isn't too bad - I wouldn't refuse to buy it
for my car.
My initial thought was mineral oil. Which I think is non-synthetic motor oil (amongst a hundred and one other uses). Apparently cheaper to buy than dispose of, but I couldn't
find anyone selling it as-is, save for tiny pharmaceutical quantities.
I think the first step will be to buy some synthetic motor oil and let rip on the 486. I can test the polycarbonate that I want to use for the case panels at the same time.
I planned to use a pump for two reasons: 1) I don't trust a PC fan to cope with the greater increased load posed by the oil 2) More importantly, I have an aquarium powerhead
going spare. In addition to circulation, I'd also be able to attach a tube to it to drain the case if need be. Hopefully the impeller will be able to shift a fluid thicker than water.
Room temp refrigerants is something I will give thought to. Surely the long tube could replaced with a more compact radiator? Because there's no phase change involved, I
assume the system could be driven by a normal pump, rather than a compressor? I don't think the inside temp in this country ever exceeds 30*C, and only then rarely.
T_Pyro February 24th, 2004, 09:16 PM

Regarding water cooling, you should see this (http://www.webx.dk/oz2cpu/pcmod/water.htm).

Interesting page, never seen a watercooled PSU before.
I wonder though, surely there are more than FETs in a PSU that need cooling? With the airflow removed aren't any components not attached to the main heatsinks at risk of
overheating?
Unfortunately I don't have the use of a milling machine. It'd probably be possible to do without one, but it'd be easier to buy a commercial waterblock. I'd source/make
everything else myself though!
I was thinking about those room temp refrigerants...
Either there is no phase change involved, in which case, what's the advantage over water?
Or more likely, the idea is that the refrigerant doesn't boil at room temp, but does in contact with the relatively hot CPU, and will then recondense in the room temp heat
exchanger. If so, how would the system be driven? Impeller pump on the liquid side?

You could sidestep the whole issue in one.
How fast a MoBo do you need? If it is going to be a nice lean one, for everyday use as a video/DVD/stereo/web browser, try www.mini-itx.com (Check out the one in the
ammo can here (http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/ammobox/?page=3)!) for a range of either very quiet (25dbA @ 1m for a 1Ghz) or totally fanless version at 666Mhz. You
can even get solidstate PSUs that run off 12V for them.
Lots of devious ideas for those babies! Feds at your door? Close the can, throw it in the garden pond, and it is safe till you fish it out!

The entire board is vertically mounted in a liquid-tight casing, with the CPU at the bottom.
As the fluid is heated by the CPU, it becomes warmer (less dense) and rises to the top of the casing, where it overflows into the radiator.
As it flows through the passive air-cooled radiator, it gives up its heat, becoming cooler (more dense), where it is thusly lead back into the case.
Be proper adjustment of inlet/outlet positions, relative to the CPU, and accounting for flow impedence from video boards and whatnot, it should be totally passive with no need
for pumps or fans. :)
As the liquid is in constant circulation, it should never reach boiling, and if it does, it can't exceed it's BP as long as there's fluid covering the CPU which, being at the bottom of
the tank, would be the last thing to "fry" if it leaked coolant, hopefully giving you time to turn it off.
In fact, you might want to install a float switch (like in a toilet tank) in the casing so that, if it does leak, the power will be turned off beefore the CPU goes dry as the coolant
level drops, thus saving your MoBo. ;)
For the watercooled CPU blocks, you might try using lost wax casting to make a hollow block from scrap aluminium. Or use copper tubing embedded in a cast aluminum block.

I see, the system would run on a convection current. Although, doesn't warm water sink? Or is this only at low temperatures, as I know it does in ponds during winter?
I've looked at mini-itx before. They're neat for cramming into small spaces (I was considering one for a carputer). The upgradability/expansivity isn't very good though.
Also seen the ammo box thing, been there, done that though :) Admitedly it was a bigger ammo box (fuzes actually). But then it does contain an ATX mobo, a powersupply,
drives and a 500VA UPS (hour runtime with monitor).
On the lid is a standard UK plug socket as PTO. I usually plug my monitor into it, but can run pretty much anything within the power rating of the UPS. I ran a jigsaw from it
once.
Sad, but when I moved house, I made sure the cable was installed before moving in. I didn't turn the computer off when I moved it, hooked up the cable modem first thing
and carried on, without suffering downtime on the computer.

The anomalous behaviour of water is only between 0o and 4oC.
Do you swap HDD's often? If so, complete immersion of the motherboard would be quite cumbersome! Hence, I prefer the watercooled CPU blocks. On the page that I'd
mentioned, that guy took care of all the essential heat generating components: CPU, GPU, chipset, HDD, SMPS. Apart from those components, there are hardly any other
components that generate any considerable heat (soundcard, ethernet card, etc...) Hence, it doesn't really matter if there's no airflow in the cabinet.
I was thinking that similar cooling blocks could be constructed by welding cut pieces of a copper sheet. Might be simpler than the lost wax process.
Additionally, if you're not too worried about some noise, you could use a radiator+fan setup to cool the water.
TheHitMan February 28th, 2004, 02:51 PM

Off topic but Anthony is "t'internet" a Peter Kay referance?
Anthony February 29th, 2004, 08:25 AM

Indeed it is :D
I don't swap HDDs often. The plan is to have the mobo inserted through the open top of the case with the ports upwards. It'd be like having a vertical removable motherboard
tray.
It was the PSU components that I was worried about suffering from lack of airflow. There must be transistors, resistors, ferrites etc putting out a decent amount of heat and
working close to the limits of their capacities.

By "PSU", you mean the SMPS (Switched Mode Power Supply, or Power Supply Unit), right? In the SMPS, the transformer and the series pass transistors are the only
components which generate large amounts of heat. The rest of the components are there to sample the o/p voltage, vary the pulse width accordingly, and feed the clock pulse
to the series pass element, to put it simply. The capacitors generally have a voltage rating higher than they'd be be used for, so there's no problem with them.
I've never had trouble with these elements, though the transformer and the series pass transistor have acted up once or twice in some power supplies (although not the regular
PC SMPS). But then again, I've never had to use the SMPS to the full rated capacity, either. If you're driving the SMPS close to its limit, I guess it would be wise to have some
extra cooling.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Backyard metal casting
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akinrog February 23rd, 2004, 06:35 PM

I found the following while surfing the net. although I am not sure under which forum topic I should post this (as a new thread or under an already existing thread), I think this
fits for the tools, techniques and plans main topic. However, it is very convenient to put this thread under links and literature main topic. So, I would be very grateful if
moderator of this forum moves its location if it does not belong here.
Anyway back to what I would like to post. Since many members of this E&W forum is interested in constructing improvised stuff, I thought it is necessary to get a knowledge of
metal casting. I came across the following web site during my google search.
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/index.html
I search the forum but it did not yield any results regarding the above given link.
The site in addition to metal casting, describes /contains information about how to make a lathe which may be very interesting and somebody better in engineering than me
may turn it into a rifling machine.
Anyway enjoy it. :)

Edit : Minor typo corrections.
j_dmillar June 4th, 2004, 08:05 PM

I think this might have some value connected to the topic on making key duplicates. I've been interested in this for quite some time, I've built two primative charcoal furnaces,
and can tell you that both aluminum (assorted scrap, I think my last batch was some old heat sinks) and lead (old wheel weights, free) cast quite easily. Zinc will be my next
metal - you have to be careful to avoid the fumes, you'll get metal fume fever. Sand casting seemed strange the first time I heard of it, but it actually works quite well,
although I'm planning to experiment with some kind of ceramic for lost-wax castings.
Oh, one other thing... in case you plan to mess with casting lead, two points: 1) its rather toxic, avoid the vapours, wash your hands, etc. 2) Wheel weights are great, but
don't waste time removing the steel clips, they will float to the surface.
paintbatt August 20th, 2004, 04:15 AM

Has anyone here tried this with metals such as titanium. i wonder if it would work?
aikon August 20th, 2004, 05:21 AM

Download the "Charcoal Faundry - build your own metal working shop from scrap" from the ftp. This little book is an excellent introduction to melting metal and greensand
casting. The other titles of the series show you step by step how to build your own lathe, milling machine etc.
Here is the website of a man who build the Gingery lathe: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/williamk/homepage.htm
Mephistopheles August 20th, 2004, 10:31 AM

oh man, I love that site; I saw his "organic lipid thermal reactor" thing where you just use old used motor oil as the fuel (which I have a lot of stored around my garage), and
gravity for pressure. So I emailed him asking about the dimensions that he used for it, if and once I get my hands on some refractory, I'm going to make one of those. I'll post
the dimensions of it once I get back home and find the email. (if you want it) I've been thinking about making a combination oil burner/charcoal furnace, or something like
that. oh, and, do you think that I could use a shopvac's output instead of a squirrel cage fan blower? if anyone has any experience with using shopvacs in this situation.
Bugger August 20th, 2004, 11:14 PM

Has anyone here tried this with metals such as titanium. i wonder if it would work?.
The melting-point of titanium, 1,800C, is much too high for the average back-yarder to achieve with amateur furnace equipment. Besides, a container and moulds of materials
with even higher melting-points, and not subject to oxidation or nitridation (unless an argon atmosphere could be provided, which would make graphite practical as such a
material), would have to be obtained, noting that Ti is liable to nitride embrittlement in the presence of nitrogen.
Even steels are beyond the reach of most amateur metal-casters, for the same reason; the m.pt. of pure Fe is 1,535C, although most carbon steels, cast irons, and alloy and
stainless steels have somewhat lower melting points, as low as 1,075C in the case of white pig iron (which would be about the eutectic composition of the Fe-C binary
system). Cementite, Fe3C, the chief constituent of gray cast iron, which has the highest practical carbon content, has an even higher m.pt, 1,837C.
However, metals like Zn (419C), Sb (631C), Bi(271C), Pb(328C), Sn(232C), Cd(321C), Al(660C), and alloys (especially eutectics) of them like solders and pewters, are
well within the reach of amateurs, and, at least when handled in bulk (not finely powdered), are not liable to significant oxidation or nitridation. Mg(651C) is somewhat more
hazardous from the oxidation point of view. Steel containers and moulds can be used for them.
Bugger.
Mephistopheles August 21st, 2004, 01:47 AM

this is a message that I got from the owner of that page, I emailed him asking him about his Organic Lipid Thermal Energy Reactor. I didn't ask him, but I hope he doesn't
mind that I posted this information, it's some answers to some questions that I sent him:
The Organic Lipid Thermal Energy Reactor" (OLTER) works on the same
principal as the "Ursutz derived" burner but is shaped a bit differently to
improve combustion and it has a better air/fuel intake system. The burner is
basically just a sheetmetal box lined with the same type of refractory that
the furnaces are lined with. The refractory is about 1" thick. The inner
chamber of the burner is rectangular about 6" long and 4" wide. The
rectangular shape seems better than a circlur chape because it produces more
air turbulance which speeds the combustion. The air and oil lines are just
as you guesed they are. There is no oil nozzle and the oil is not
pressureized (the system uses gravity to carry the oil). A valve simply
controls the speed at which the oil drizzles into the airstream which blows
the oil into a semi-mist for easier ignition. The burner is started with a
nice hot wood fire (sticks, etc) in the burner's inner chamber. After about
5 minutes the burner is so hot that the oil fire is self sustaining. The
flame exit port is just a sheetmetal tube lined with refractory with a 1 or
1-1/4" diameter tunnel runing through it to carry the flame.
Ways to greatly improve the burner's efficienty:

1) Improve the oil's "atomization
2) warm the oil prior to it entering the burner etc..etc...etc... (this is
the experimentation phase).
Bert August 21st, 2004, 03:38 AM

Spent what little spare time I had this summer reading "De Re Metallica" and "The Pyrotechnia of Vannoccio Biringuccio", allong with "A Diderot Pictorial Encyclopedia of Trades
and Industry" ... Backyard iron and steel aren't out of reach, but your neighbors had better be understanding or far away! Lots and lots of burning charcoal-
Bugger August 22nd, 2004, 01:30 AM
Most of the above metals the melting points of which put them within easy range of backyard amateur founders are also fairly soft, and do not have the mechanical strength of
steel and other more refractory metals. This rather limits their use, e.g. ruuling out most mechanical uses.
To the above metals mentioned in my previous post may be added Cu (m.pt. 1083C) and Ag (961C), which have melting points intermediate between these matals and
those of Fe and steels. Some common brasses and bronzes melt around 885C.
Bugger.
Skean Dhu August 22nd, 2004, 01:44 AM

I beg to differ, although you could use charcoal for melting steel, you'd go through loads of it. You can however melt small amounts of steel in a propane fired furnace or if
your were serious about melting steel you could invest in a cupola furnace and a means to make or buy coke. but this would be a dedicated steel furnace and not much help
for anything else. Also bugger what have you got against Al? Sure its a little on the soft side but for most intents and purposes its strong enough
akinrog August 25th, 2004, 05:17 PM

This is not metal casting in essence, however a little bit related, since it's related to metal machining.
During my google searches I found the following web site (http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/techindx.htm) where a considerable amount of information is provided on
lathes, mills, drilling, etc. in short on workshops.
I am now leeching that web site and after completing it, I shall compress the files and upload the forum FTP.
I hope you enjoy it.
HIM August 26th, 2004, 01:16 AM

where you just use old used motor oil as the fuel (which I have a lot of stored around my garage), and gravity for pressure.....
If you join the Yahoo Waste Watts Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wastewatts/files/Babington/Improved%20Babington%20Burner%20/) is a little quick write up I did
on Improving the Babbington Butner design. It makes a nice little burner, but nothing like my new set-up.
Outline:
- obtain (1) empty party Helium tank (aprox the size of a 5 gal propane tank), and (1) small diameter tank.
=Drill a line of .375 inch ~ 3 inches above the bottom of the small diameter tank.
-Cut out the top of the larger diameter tank so that the smaller tank fits tightly into the larger one. Seat the smaller tank so its base is a few inches from the bottom of the
larger tank.
-Punch a hole in the larger tank near the base that is large enough to attach a air supply (Exhaust of a shop vac, squirl cage fan ect).
-Fill the inner tank with used motor oil up to the holes.
-Toss in a solvent soaked rag onto the oil. Light another piece of paper and toss onto the solvent/oil.
-After a few minutes turn on the fan and adjust the air flow as nessisary.
This burner is extremly impressive and I have to use Oxy/Acetalyne Welding goggles when looking anywhere near this burner as it burns extremly hot. (My Digital
Thermometer maxed out at 1300 C)
doom4?! August 26th, 2004, 04:53 AM

Here are a few links that I have compiled when I first found out how easy it is to melt metal and do what you will with it.
http://www.visi.com/~darus/foundry/ details the construction of a charcoal furnace made from 2 coffe cans and a simple fan, capable of melting aluminuim.
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/crucibles2.html shows a homemade crucible made from a steel pipe
http://www.visi.com/~darus/foundry2/ is the improved version of the cofee can foundary in the first link.
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/greensand.html how to mix greensand, a type of sand used in molds for casting
hope these links help someone in some small way.
redbull September 7th, 2004, 08:52 AM

Im suprised no one mentioned it yet... why not make firearm recievers? Anyone
know how difficult it would be to make cast .45 caliber 1911 pistol recievers?
Im sure it would need some cleaning up after casting but thats no big deal...
how do you take a working store bought reciever and make a metal mold? Im
not that familiar with metal working.. I just wanted to propose the idea.. Im
looking at finishing 80% by finishing the slide rails. Anyone done this before? :)
EDIT : Oh yeah... you can buy sten reciever tubes (and other tube based
firearms) with reciever templated bonded on... you just use a drill press and
make the simple holes to finish your reciever. I suppose thats THE easiest
way to build a firearm reciever but its no pistol... :D
Skean Dhu September 9th, 2004, 05:31 PM

Well this started off as a thread about rifling barrels, and FYI I mentioned it(www.Backyardmetalcasting.com) in one of the improvised weapons threads that Anthony started.
I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard, if you had some prior mold and casting experience. Also if you know what your doing the only after-cast work would be drilling and threading
holes, along with hacking off the sprue and vents.

I was under the impression that firearm recievers were not cast due to strength issues? Rather, they're either machine from solid billets, or folded/welded from plate steel.
FrankRizzo September 10th, 2004, 09:22 PM

I was under the impression that firearm recievers were not cast due to strength issues? Rather, they're either machine from solid billets, or folded/welded from plate steel.
You're right, they're either forged, or machined from a block of solid metal.
festergrump September 11th, 2004, 05:11 AM

Just a note on something I found very interesting following THIS (http://www.unitednuclear.com/chem.htm) link from a thread in the pyrotechnic section.
At the very bottom of the page is a compound metal sold in bars called "Woods Metal" that melts at a mere 158 degrees F. ($12 for just under a 1/4 oz. bar. They say it's a 1/
4 pound, but this must be a typo. Found it HERE (http://shop2.chemassociates.com/shopsite/Chemassoc2/PAS-woodsmetal.html?
OVRAW=Wood's%20metal&OVKEY=metal%20wood&OVMTC=standard) for a comparable price for a 25g bar). I thought an interesting use for this would be to test out your
forms before casting the real deal to prevent wasted time in the event your mould needs modification. This might be great for testing trigger parts and smaller castings,
especially. You should be able to cast your parts with this and check them for fit and action, perhaps, before firing up the furnace and wasting time with a failing part.
It's a bit costly, but time is money, and for $12 a bar, you really can't go wrong if you do alot of small castings. And the second link will do you right on quantities, also.
A search of the forum revealed two earlier mentions of this compound. Once in the Water Cooler for it's use in a hot bath and it's heat conductive properties, and another in a
patent for FOX-7, but nothing else. I have never used this myself, so it's simply a thought...
tomu September 13th, 2004, 04:34 PM

Most receivers today are steel or alu precision castings. Even bolts are being made by precsison steel casting.
In some hunting rifles and in high grade, high priced hand made arms is the receiver and other parts milled from solid stock.
Have look at the Ruger Companies web site http://www.ruger.com/
Pb1 September 17th, 2004, 07:35 PM

Different companies jack up their prices different amounts. A bit OT, but why is it that wood's metal is so safe even though it has a high cadmium content?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Protecting a Door
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JamesyBHOY February 24th, 2004, 09:12 PM

I have been reading various threads here about Picking Locks,It started to make me think,especially as i am frequently away for from the house for long periods.So i thought i
would ask something a little differently.What about the safety and security of using a digital keypad lock,Which removes the use of lockpicks and keys,Would these locks be
vulnerable to any kind of electronic attack.
Something like this
http://ww w.securityengineering.co.uk/DKM210.htm
Just curious,So for arguments sake,Say i have it fitted on my door,How would you guys try get around it to gain entry to the house,other than trying different combinations.
Thanks James..
kld1648temp February 24th, 2004, 11:17 PM

;)
There are ways. If the intruder had access to the lock, they could simply wipe the keypad clean, and return shortly after someone entered through that door, then they would
brush the keys with talcum or some other powder that w ould stick to the oils in your skin, and see w hat keys w ere pressed. From there it is a matter of 'brute-force' trial and
error. Another option would be to sit across the street with binoculars and just watch an authorized person punch aw ay digits. Micro cameras are fairly common nowadays; an
intruder could conceal one of these in a manner that it would view the keypad without the authorized user being aw are of it, and if it could transmit, record the combo for access
at a later time. For an out of the box idea, use a small audio recorder or transmitter to record/transmit the tones (beeps) the keypad makes. Provided the lock outputs different
tones, it is just a matter of re-entering those recorded keys. The simplest way to get in, is to walk around the house looking for a door w ithout the high-tech lock and picking it,
or just break a window. I'm a newb though, what do I know.
shrek February 24th, 2004, 11:32 PM

There are a few problems problems w ith the methods you mentioned. Where I work there is a digital keypad, and when you want to enter the building you type in the
combination. The numbers are randomly displayed on different buttons, so the talcum powder idea w ould not w ork... The numbers are also displayed VERY faintly, so faint that
it would be very difficult for a camera to pick up the numbers, and that is if you could even get a view of the keypad. This same keypad also has an encloser around it so it can
not been read except from almost directly infront of it.
Also the w hole idea, like you see in the movies, of being able to open up the keypad and short the door lock mechanism also w ouldn't work. The keypad is wired to a computer
inside the building that does all the work. The keypad just displays and transmits the data to the computer, which in turn opens the door. All in all I would say the electronic
doors can be very safe and it would be almost best to look for another entrance, or get violent :)

There are a few problems problems w ith the methods you mentioned. Where I work there is a digital keypad, and when you want to enter the building you type in the
combination. The numbers are randomly displayed on different buttons, so the talcum powder idea w ould not w ork... The numbers are also displayed VERY faintly, so faint that
it would be very difficult for a camera to pick up the numbers, and that is if you could even get a view of the keypad. This same keypad also has an encloser around it so it can
not been read except from almost directly infront of it.
Where do you work? I haven't ever seen a lock like that, anywhere in the UK!
The highest security one I know of is a rotunda door w ith swipecard access. The floor weighs you, and stops the door after 1/6th of a turn, and calls security, if you are too
heavy (i.e. two people going in). The bulletproof inch-thick glass is smoked, so you can't see through, there is no code override, you have to sw ipe both w ays, and the window s
all have thick bars as well. You could still get in by stealing a pass and using it quickly, though since everyone is known to everyone else, you w ould soon have problems. You
also can't pass the pass back outside, as the doors open with the pass, but only cycle with the w eight change, and the computer knows which side you are on. I have gotten
past every other door and security system, but that one... Add to that the cameras, security guards, controlled site access and high fences, a solid brick exterior and 24
occupation and it is one tough nut to crack. It is the social network aspect that is hardest to overcome, though.
Digital locks are generally rated for a certain holding force, using an electromagnet. (Rotunda doors are a bit different) You could use a jack to force the door open, and a lot of
systems won't detect it, as they simply don't expect the door to be opened without the magnet switching off. You can then shut the door and anyone w ho did come and look
would see the door was shut and secure. Another way might be to use a powerful electromagnet to cancel out the one holding the door shut. Another w ay is to use a thin w ire
and trip the door release on the inside, if it has one.
I haven't ever tried any of these, I just use social engineering! :D Without extreme force and damn the consequences, you w ill never get inside (or back out of) the building I
describe above.
Hang-Man February 26th, 2004, 05:50 PM

This is the guy s house, not his weapons research facility. He is not going to be able to afford some crazy ass computer based keypad system etc. Just go buy a high security lock, it
would provide far better security than a keypad of the same cost (hell, even 10X the cost). As far as some guy picking it; assuming you're home at night, and away during they day, the
thief would have to pick your door mid-day. Which takes time, more so under pressure, and it is very suspicious. And if its someone breaking in while you're on vacation you're worried
about, just throw a warded padlock on your door, your average thief, while he may be able to pick locks, w ont be carrying the try-out keys he would need to pass a w arded padlock.
Finally, an expensive security system, suggests there is something w orth guarding inside, so if you put obvious, keypad security on your door, you can bet someone will break a w indow
and see w hat it is you're guarding. I personally dont lock my doors. If you steal from m e and live- you deserve whatever you stole. :D

Hang-man,
I would *so* wait till you w ere out...
I agree with w hat you are saying about the lock, though. Having said that, a lot of the time you see people with crazy hard locks on the front door, and nothing of note on the
back door, and, I promise you, the door won't be as strong as the lock in 99% of cases. Either the door w ill break, and the lock pop out, or the door will bend and the lock bolt
will disengage, or, most common, the frame of the door will fail, and the door w ill open that way.
Craziest door I know that I personally had anything to do with was a really neat one, in some w ays. Weld some angle iron into a door frame shape, then w eld a mild steel plate
over the one side, then add mesh and concrete. Allow to set solid, then weld another sheet over the front!
This was for a swimming pool and health spa - you got a work out trying to get the door open, even when you had the "key"! It took four people to hang it on the rather strong
hinges, and you wouldn't open it in an hour w ith a sledge-hammer, unless you knew how to use the hammer.
No visible keyholes, just a card slot and electric release.
How to get past it? There was an override with a screwdriver! The other way would have been to use a jack, and just jack it open. The electric part would have failed long
before the door, the frame, or any other part of the system, as it was only rated to three tonnes (iirc) - easy for a small hydraulic ram.
Anyhow, my point is, there is alw ays a w eak spot - what do you define as secure?
vulture March 14th, 2004, 07:41 PM

Every security system can and will be beaten, just like tank armor.
The most efficient security is making sure that getting to your expensive/precious goodies costs time once someone bypassed security.
If your security system is fairly good, bypassing it will inevitably attract attention. That puts the thief under alot of time pressure. If they can't find w hat they're looking for within
10 minutes after detection, they'll be gone.
Leaving some easy bait (eg 20 bucks) helps distracting too. And ofcourse, non-lethal boobytraps. :D
Something shiny with a paint bomb attached to it will do w onders.
nbk2000 March 15th, 2004, 04:07 AM

The strongest doors are the ones that don't swing open on hinges but slide aside within tracks in the walls.
If the door is strong, and the w alls solid, then the lock becomes the w eakest link, but that can be made very strong too. Plus, it's not something the SWAT pork would have
much experience with, especially if you use RTPB "Smoke and Mirrors" to disguise it as a normal door. Thus, they'll attack it like it was, only without the expected results. :p
Also, depending on the design of the house, and the nature of the threat you anticipate defending against, you may wish to add a "Last stand" type of defense to your
doorw ay...a rockfall.
I read about this in a design manual for nuclear weapons storage facility security from the '70s.
Basically, you have a large concrete slab supported by columns on one end, the other end sitting on a fixed support and the columns being weakened and explosive charges
placed on the weak spots.
If attacked, the charges blow, and the slab falls down on one end, crushing the intruders and sealing the entrance, requiring additional attack time just to get to the door, let
alone through it. :D
In this context, a small overhang to the entrance way is built, and topped with a pile of cinderblocks or such, with the supports being mechanically weakened so some means of
breaking them is possible.
If attacked, the supports are knocked out, the overhang swings down over the doorw ay (which it so happens to just cover ;)), and the blocks fall on the intruders as they form
a big pile in front of the door, impeding rescue of the crushed pork and any further attack on that door. :D

Nice idea!
Remember, the door should open outwards, as the cops use a hydraulic ram type device to push doors open very quickly and quietly. It expands into the frame, then uses that
to push the door open.
With sliding doors, don't forget that they can still be made to jump off the tracks, in the same w ay that hinges w ill fail...
Personally I think the best system would be some kind of lift, or rotating cylinder. You can't do anything to it, as the harder you push the more stuck it gets! The distance is too
far for the whole thing to be pushed through, and you are safe as anything will ever be. Also, once someone is inside, they are totally at your w him. Fill it with water, suck out
the air, whatever.
Again, not very practical!
vulture March 15th, 2004, 08:05 PM

Let the intruders have the first, fake door. :D
Make sure it's hollow and filled with lachrymator, blistering agent or any other CW. ;)
Ofcourse, it has to look strong enough to provoke the destruction of said door...
Ropik May 11th, 2004, 07:57 AM

Safest doors are doors painted on concrete wall, but if you want to go home, it become a big problem.
Otherw ise, as NBK mentioned, sliding doors w ith security lock. When you have standart doors, use methode invented by one of my friends - place a small steel girder(just big to
fit snugly) into frame and fill spaces with concrete. This will probably hinder the ram-frame-w idening-and-door-opening thing.
xperk May 11th, 2004, 04:50 PM

if discreetness of the door needing protection is not an issue - perhaps an effective countermeasure w ould be to restrain intruder movement in front of the door.
For instance by placing a cage outside the door increasing exposure time to the intruders. Or in other ways direct the would be intruders to attack the door at an unconvenient
angle.
A way of directing intruder entry could be to place a concrete passageway in front of the door (for instance a large diameter concrete tube found at construction sites for sewers)
- perhaps with an angle joint to further hamper the team strategies of intruders from covering each other or to move quickly. As well as keeping the kill zone out of sight from
possible backup thus maximising the psychological effect. The tube doesn't need to be round it could be brick work or a metalclad w ooden construction.
Such a tube could perhaps present an unpleasant ricochet property for anyone inhabitating it, thus diminishing the effect of the probable superior firepow er of the scoundrels.
While allow ing the defender more economical use of offensive tactics from various prepared positions.
nbk2000 May 11th, 2004, 05:18 PM

I just love how people keep bringing up ideas that I posted years ago. :)

I just love how people keep bringing up ideas that I posted years ago. :)
Indeed. And any study of ancient castles tells you that some of these ideas, they have been around for thousands of years! ;)
It w as common for the multi-layer rings of defence that form a stone castle to make it very very hard for anyone to get to the gate without something getting dropped on their
head from cover. Most "doors" were designed to get the crap kicked out of them, whilst the kickers took the usual casualties from arrows, etc. Once through, they would be in a
nice stone tunnel, generally about 5 to 10 meters long, w hich sometimes turned sharply, such that battering rams w ouldn't go round the bend (though this was rare, as it
hindered the traffic of carts, etc. in times of peace) and w hich had handy trapdoors and slots through which arrow s and boiling oil could be poured on the sods below, who came
straight up against a second door, which w as generally something like a steel portcullis, w hich, needless to say, allowed arrows and swords easy access. The attackers couldn't
really shoot back effectively due to the burning oil, arrows, rocks, and, of course, the flailing and colliding of other attackers (how do you draw your bow w hen in a crushing
mob? How do you fancy cutting through the piles of bodies of your friends to get to the gate for your turn to die?)
Anyways... back to more modern concerns. Earlier on, I posted about using a tyre instead of those rubber things. Well, I have got a tyre, but does anyone have a good way to
cut the bastard thing? I thought bolt crops, but the rubber just gives, and nothing happens, plus they wouldn't cat in deeply. I then tried a set of lopping shears, which seemed
to work fine. Then I saw the damage to the Teflon coated steel blades, and the utter lack of more than a mark on the tyre! No wonder they stop bullets!
I thought of a hacksaw, but it was so slow it w as silly, so I got the jigsaw , and tried that. The smell! Burning rubber, alright! But it didn't seem to be cutting much, more sort of
melting... so I stop, and check the blade, and find it no longer has teeth w orth a damn! A new (wood) blade, gone in seconds. :mad:
I figure a steel cutting blade might do it, but it is going to be pretty slow, judging from the lack of impact from the hacksaw. Those little teeth just don't remove the rubber,
more push it out the w ay.
Anyone know if there is some knack? I w ill cut it, I will w ear a mask and cut it with my disc cutter if I need to, but it will stink.
All suggestions barring explosive ones welcome! I just don't want to break any more tools!
nbk2000 May 11th, 2004, 06:51 PM

Use a carbide-grit covered blade for your jigsaw or, better yet, use a reciprocating saw w ith such a blade.
It's likely the kevlar or steel fibers in the rubber tire (radial reinforcment) that's fucking off your blades.
Dave Angel May 11th, 2004, 06:52 PM

If you have space in a big chest freezer perhaps taking the rubber down to -20C will make it easier to cut, though it would be even better if you have liquid nitrogen handy!
Another possibility, if you can stand the smell, could be to use a red hot section of resistance wire if you have a thick enough piece handy to stand up to the forces involved in
the cutting.
Have you tried a nice new sharp stanley knife blade? Maybe go ask some delinquents w hat they use to slash tyres with!
[Edit] ah nbk's kevlar/steel fibres probably make my ideas useless!

NBK, good thinking. I will try my ceramic hacksaw blade. I know it is the steel wires, as you can see them quite clearly imprinted down the blade of my tree loppers! Sadly, the
bolt croppers just w on't cut them either, I think due to the rubber not cutting, but just being squeezed.
Dave, yes, the steel wires won't care about the redhot w ire! It w ould work on Kevlar, though. Getting a cut in a tyre is easy, if you get between the radial bands. I, alas, need
to cut through them.
Sadly, I don't have a supplier for LN2 anymore. :( That stuff is amazing fun!
Oh, forgot to say, I have some really big Torx head bolts, used for uPVC door frames. I plan to drive those through the rubber, to secure it, then I w ill try beating the crap out
the door (w ell, not a door, but a set-up like a door) I drove one into a tree using a small driver bit and my socket set - they take some torque! (Hence the name, I guess)
Just realised, this-^ is in the wrong thread! (although it fits w ell here)
I also have the British Standards for locks now, as .pdf. I should really take a look at this new ftp: server and upload them. The specs are very high, like it must take more than
5 minutes and two blades to manually hacksaw the bolt off, etc. They should be of great interest to UK members!
nbk2000 May 11th, 2004, 10:34 PM

Lock standards are of interest to anyone, regards of w here they may live at at the moment, as people can get around, eh? ;)
BTW, rubber will transmit shock just fine, as it's used for backing EFP liners and such so they aren't spalled by the impact of the shockwave from the explosive, but rather
deformed, so a door w ould still get the full force of an impact.

Lock standards are of interest to anyone, regards of w here they may live at at the moment, as people can get around, eh? ;)
As can the locks! ;) I need to find some w ay to remove certain things from the pdfs first, how ever...
BTW, rubber will transmit shock just fine, as it's used for backing EFP liners and such so they aren't spalled by the impact of the shockwave from the explosive, but rather
deformed, so a door w ould still get the full force of an impact.
I wasn't meaning the explosive shock, more the type of shock the door gets from a kick, etc., the kind the Anti-Piggy Door Ram Stopper you showed us a short time ago is
designed for.
Why pay $15 (or ship them in from the states) only to find they are somthing you can make from old tyres?
Heck, mine will be even tougher due to the steel radial w ires! Certainly bolt crop proof! :)
nbk2000 May 12th, 2004, 09:31 PM

Shock doesn't care if it originates from an explosion or the impact of a sledgehammer, it's only a difference of time scale.
The anti-piggy rammer w orks because it gives a bit, to absorb some of the impact, then returns that energy back to close the door. Fiber reinforced tire rubber isn't going to
stretch a bit, thus the impact w ould be fully transmitted into the target, defeating the purpose.

The shock is, technically, the same, but we both know that there is a critical timescale for it. Bullets cut holes through tin cans, if they are going fast, but travelling more slowly,
they sometimes push the can over instead. If the material reacts on the timescale of the force event or faster, it will give and, perhaps, remain intact. I see a sledgehammer
against a tyre as being a waste of time for the hammerer, as it w ill never be fast enough to beat it. Against an explosive/propellant, such as gunpowder, it will probably be quite
a close thing, as a "fast" rubber can probably expand and contract at the same sort of rate as a slow BP. Against something that has a high VoD /brissance, the rubber at the
site will have been destroyed before the rest has time to react.
I'm not so sure. Tyres do have give in them, otherwise w hy would they be rubber? They don't give much, true enough, but we don't want them to for this experiment.
Also, the radial bands are designed to stop the wheel stretching in only one axis, I see no reason why they shouldn't just spread apart a little if the rubber and bands are aligned
just so.
Also, if that fails, I can still set it up so that the basic shape of the rubber tyre section acts to keep the door closed, but then flexes "open" and then closed again.
Think of the "U" shape. That w ill bend a long way, and bend right back, as a pow erful spring, w hich is part of the design. A small section of that should do a great job, though it
wouldn't look as good as a nice flat bit. Perhaps even just the natural curve radius of the tyres tread section will be enough.
Anyway, I am going to find out.
nbk2000 May 13th, 2004, 06:56 PM

Never hurts to try, regardless.
BTW, tests were done on rubber tires used as perimeter barriers, where 10 pound charges of C-4 were placed on them, in an attempt to destroy them.
It failed to do so.
Why? Because rubber transmits shock, with minimal absorbing, to whatever it's in contact with, in this case the earth. So, unless the rubber is so cold as to be brittle, its elasticity
will protect it from harm.

That bodes well.
I shall try very hard to find some daylight hours to get this project moved on this weekend.
Results asap.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Airbag
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atr March 12th, 2004, 02:02 PM

So my buddy just got out of emerg with a broken nose , a broken collarbone and a bashed in face . The accident folded in his front bumper and other than that caused no
damage . The air bag is what dam near killed him . He drives a new GMC 4 x 4 and he slid off his icy driveway , into a tree at about 15 miles per hour .
I've read somewhere that 80% of the time when an airbag deploys the driver ends up in emerg no matter what the speed or lack of .
I drive a '91 Toyota extended cab 4 x 4 that has seen it's better days so i'm thinking of replacing it with a new one .
My trucks are bush trucks and everyone that i've owned has had the front end smashed up on several occasions jumping logs and boulders and fording streams . The last thing
i want is an airbag deploying at 10 mph 50 miles from nowhere leaving me busted up and possibly not being able to make my way home .
I've talked to 2 Toyota mechanics that tell me there is no way of disconnecting the airbag as the onboard computer will not allow the truck to run . I've asked them about just
bypassing the bumper sensors and they say , no way . I've asked about bypassing the airbag detonator and according to them that won't work either and i've asked about just
removing the detonator without removing the airbag and apparently the computer will pick that up and shut the truck down .
I know a guy that runs a bodyshop and he says that he can not only remove the airbag and detonator but that he will also pay me for it . He says that he can run a diagnostic
on the computer and reprogram it so that it believes the airbag and det are still in place and the truck will run just fine .
Last fall i was crossing a forest cut and hit a stump that smashed in the front bumper and i wasn't wearing a seatbelt . No belt , no bag , no problem . Had i been driving a new
truck i probably would have ended up like my buddy with my face caved in .
Anybody have an opinion on this ? Can it be done , or not ?
+++++++++++++++++
Failure to capitalize I when referring to yourself (4x in 1 paragraph?!) and failure to use paragraph breaks are bannable offenses! This is your last and only warning.
Rhadon March 12th, 2004, 03:12 PM

An airbag can indeed be lethal under some circumstances, especially if you're sitting very close to the steering wheel or are in an unfavourable position when it is set off. This is
especially problematic for smaller persons, as well as for children on the passenger seat.
Usually the airbag will fill itself with gas before you make contact with it with your head. But under certain conditions it is possible that the bag hits your head while it's still
filling itself up, thereby thrusting your head backwards and maybe braking your neck.
I myself wouldn't remove the airbag nevertheless. Unusually small persons can have the pedals positioned so that they can well reach them without moving too close to the
steering wheel. But if want to get rid of the airbag, it should be removed completely and not only deactivated electronically (what seems to be possible). I read that a woman
had the air-bag for the passenger seat deactivated because that's where her child used to sit in a child's seat. When she had an accident, the airbag was set off despite the
deactivation and her child died in the process.
aikon March 12th, 2004, 03:27 PM

There are those special kid seats wich are mounted on the co driver seats.
When installing such a seat the airbag must be disabled by a mechanic because an unfolding airbag is a life-threatening device for a kid.
To my knowledge it's enough to change the software in order to disable the airbag.
In general airbags are a good invention, but they only work appropriate when you're using the safetybelt.
Rhadon March 12th, 2004, 08:11 PM

To my knowledge it's enough to change the software in order to disable the airbag. But like I said, it looks like airbags disabled that way can still be set off.
Bigfoot March 15th, 2004, 11:17 AM

One way to permanantly disable an airbag is to amputate his legs...
But seriously, I find it incredible that a Toyota mechanic wouldn't be able to disable/remove and airbag. Ford is up front in their manuals about disabling the airbags, even
include a switch in some models (Ranger for sure) to do it yourself. Permanently disabling the bag is doable at the dealership. I can't see why Toyota wouldn't have their
people trained to offer at least that level of service.
What man can lock, man can unlock.
The man who says he can do it, might be straight with you about it. Caveat Emptor.
nbk2000 March 16th, 2004, 01:21 AM

I can't see why Toyota wouldn't have their people trained to offer at least that level of service.
One word:
LIABILITY
:p
Bigfoot March 23rd, 2004, 04:23 PM

I guess Ford is into risk-taking, then. If you ask at the dealership, they'll kill the airbag for you for a price. As in, the manual says it directly, if you want it disabled, just ask!
They do warn about the seatbelt being a catch-and-release mech., designed to work with a functional airbag. I never have anyone ride shotgun, so mine is always disabled.
Been an airbag opponent since 1983. Why? Have pictures. No thank you, sir!
Ford Ranger, the #1 light truck in Minnesota, and thus the most inconspicuous!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Adding years to yo ur
appearance?
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View Full Version : Adding years to your appearance?
ink March 15th, 2004, 12:20 AM

I want to start this thread because there is a fe ature to ones face that ca n m ake you look 15 or ca n m a k e y o u l o o k 2 5 a n d I
can't put my finger on it! I have a friend that is 18 but people have mistaken him for m y dad on m a n y o c c a s i o n s . D o y o u g u y s
have an tech niques for m aking yourself look older then you accually are?
nbk2000 March 15th, 2004, 05:04 AM

P a i n ting on a thin shellac of m edical grade NC on the skin causes it to pucker up in a good im itation of wrinkling. On the
h a n d s , n e c k , a n d f a c e , t h a t ' d b e e n o u g h , a l o n g w i t h s o m e suitable m a k e u p , t o p u t s o m e y e a r s o n y o u , t h o u g h n o o n e i s
goin g to be fooled into thinking a 15 year old is old enough to buy beer without showing ID. ;) :p
But, if you're 40, it co u l d m a k e y o u l o o k 6 0 .
Bigfoot March 15th, 2004, 11:26 AM

Facial hair, if you're m ale. Of course, that presupposes you have real whiskers, not just a little pea chfuzz. Nothing looks m o r e
juvenile than a kid with peachfuzz just letting it grow. A five o'clo ck shadow, however, will give the look of age. I knew a chap in
high school, at 18 he wore a full beard to school. W e called him "Moses". Looked like he was 40. I know guys who started
wearing a m ustache in their 20's to look older, than quit in their 40's to look younger.
Premature balding adds years to your face.
If you're 15, you're pretty m u c h h o s e d , u n l e s s y o u h a v e e x c e s s t e s t o s t e r o n e f o r t h e l a s t 4 y e a r s . W ireframe glasses will age
you a little, and NBK's "wrinkle cream" will add to the illusion. Your demeanor will be the clincher, though.
vulture March 15th, 2004, 11:52 AM

Juveniles also have this typical kind of walk and pose, because they're always searching for a position that'll make them look a
certain way.
Your appearance is not only how your body looks, but also the way how you walk, talk and look around.
dinkydexy March 15th, 2004, 09:22 PM

A lot of peop le sm oke cigarettes and drink alcohol to m ake themselves look older. It works, too, although not in the way that
they had intended.
chokingvictim78 March 16th, 2004, 12:50 AM

There's not a whole lot you can do to make you look older if you're only 15, but, as Vulture said, the way you act goes a long
way. I don't know if this pertains to your situation, but I've been able to pass as 18 tons of tim es when I'm buying som ething
I'm not supp osed to. A lot of people m a k e t h e m i s t a k e o f b e i n g c a u t i o u s a n d p a r a n o i d . W alk in there, go straight up to the
counter, ask for a specific brand of smokes (stuttering and choosing som e t h i n g r i g h t t h e r e m a k e s y o u l o o k s u s p i c i o u s ) , a n d
do it audibly. Act like you expect to be sold something without any trouble. Buy som e inco nspicious stuff with it, but not sodas,
candy, ect. Buy a cheap hygiene produ ct or som ething. Don't bring your wallet if you plan on using the "I lo st my ID" excuse .
W a d s o m e s m all bills up in your pocket and say someone stole your wallet, and STILL expect to be sold whatever you're
buying. People run/give up if asked for an ID. Dress is also important. Put on a nice shirt and clean jeans. People are reluctant
to sell to you if you've got a leather jacket covered in studs and bands, and rippe d up jeans. This works for pretty m uch
anything, be it knives, amm unition, lighters (yeah, I've been de nied ligh ters before), or whatever. It works wonders for buying
chemicals, too. Clean , acceptable clothes and the right dem eanor get you a long way. If you're wanting to look olde r for
s o m ething else, it still applies. The best m ake-up artist in the world couldn't help you if you still act like you're 15.
wrench352 March 16th, 2004, 01:16 AM

Never sm ile,in fact try and look kinda pissed.
JamesyBHOY April 7th, 2004, 12:18 AM

W ell that's not technically true ,anything is possible even at 15,If you were good a t acting(being able to deepen voice,posture
etc)then you would use Facial Prosthetics.basically it consists of m aking a cast of your face,neck,hands(visible body
parts,although you would be better using gloves to cover the hands),then with the cast that you m ade you would sculpt it
adding wrinkles,scars,blem ishes etc,then you can either m ake another full face cast,which will be your latex m ask but i would
a d v i s e a g a i n s t t h a t , e s p e c i a l l y i f y o u h a v e t o s p e a k , i n s t e a d y o u m a k e m oulds of individual sections of the
face,forehead,cheeks,neck etc then apply it to your skin.
It's really hard to explain but take a look here & you will see the undetectable results that professionals can do.Like m ost
people when they try this for low budget m ovies etc,they make a whole h esd cast and it lo oks really stupid,However when they
do it in big budget movies they build it up in individual layers which gives it the realism factor.
http://www.realsculpt.com /
http://www.brainsofbaines.com / m a s k . h t m l
It would really be worth either enrolling in part tim e,weekend classes or even books if you are really serious about it.Most of
the stuff nee ded is cheap,so you could practice it yourself fairly sim ply & then see how you get on,However if you're not good
at art then i seriously wouldn't bother,trying to sculpt layered facial features(wrinkles etc) onto your cast,then add fa cial tones
etc can be a real bitch.

Nose putty/derm a wax could really help changing your appearence, though not that much in the sense of m a k i n g y o u l o o k
olde r but rather fucking up your description. Ch anging the nose and especially chin (m a k i n g i t l o o k a s y m metrical and/or
a d d i n g a d i m ple) can really work wonders. The biggest problem , at least for m e , s e e m s t o b e t h e f u c k i n g m a k e u p , I c o u l d g e t
the putty right after a bit of practice but then I either couldn't cover the shit reliab ly, or used too m uch mak e u p a n d e n d e d u p
look ing like a gay prostitute...
Mr Cool April 7th, 2004, 02:45 PM

I know a great m ethod. Unfortunately it takes a few years to do it well...
festergrump April 8th, 2004, 08:22 AM

...there is a feature to ones face that can m a k e y o u l o o k 15 or can m a k e y o u l o o k 25 and I can't put m y finger on it!
More than likely you are thinking of "crow's feet". Most people start to develop those thin lines beside their eyes in their mid
twenties. Without them you can guarantee a look of your ID when trying to purchase alcohol or tob acco.
If you're going for the old man look, h ere's som ething really strange I noticed:
I t s e e m s m e n's ears never se em to stop growing. They get fucking huge ! I'm lau ghing as I type this, but it's true...
Anyway, pay attention to peoples eye-lines at various ages and you'll see what I m e a n . H o p e t h a t h e l p s .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Building grappeling hooks
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View Full Version : Building grappeling hooks
lawbreakingctzn March 17th, 2004, 03:30 PM

Does anyone have information or links on construction your own reliable grappeling hook?
any help appreciated, thanks
randall March 18th, 2004, 12:21 AM

this site has a different design, two seperate pieces of sheet steel that come apart to fold flat. doesn't look like it would be too hard to build either- basically just drawing the
pieces up to fit right and cutting them out. also it might be stronger than other designs (although maybe bulky) since there would be no welds to break
http://www.tadgear.com/x-treme%20gear/climbing%20gear%20main/trg_laser_hook_2_5.htm
fode March 24th, 2004, 06:41 PM

Another option for a grappeling hook:
-go to your local outdoor store, check the dumpster, most of the time they will put tags on the thrown out items that tell you what was wrong with them
-find some shit
-return it for store credit, using the flaw as a reason
-buy some ice axes (2)
-either, attach them to one another with, carribeaners, or some climbing rope
-dont forget a harness and acension devices
Arkangel March 24th, 2004, 07:02 PM

Results 1 - 10 of about 17,200. Search took 0.21 seconds
What google told me when I searched for grappling hooks - including the site kindly provided by randall for you.
Think about it lawbreakingctzn, over seventeen THOUSAND results, in less than half a second.
So why exactly have you taken the time to start this thread, when you should have focussed your efforts on:
a. Searching
and:
b. Reading the rules
I mean, I know it's nice to get a friendly response from someone here, saying "I tried this", or "I did that", but that's really missing the point, ESPECIALLY on a subject as easy
to research as this one. How about this (http://www.saa-intl.com/climb.htm) little beaut - took me 20 seconds, searching using "grapnel climbing products". There's even THIS
(http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=1054&highlight=grappling+hook) thread found in a search of this forum in another 20 seconds. What the fuck were you
thinking?
I hope this doesn't signal "attack of the dumbasses 04/04...... :rolleyes:"
C'mon newbies - don't get yourself banned over something so trivial.
READ
THE
RULES
nbk2000 March 25th, 2004, 01:43 AM

Oops! I did it again, I stomped on a n00b!
Too bad for him, as he was just much of a law breaker to survive here. :p
Think about this carefully, people. Here you are, doing your best Bat-Man imitation, swinging from a rope at some height above the ground, trusting to your homemade |/\/
\p%0\/iz3D grapple to not break and send you falling to your death.
Which, of course, does break, sending you screaming to a quick, but very painful, death.
If you are too lazy, stupid, and otherwise a grabbastic fucktard, to find premanufactured grapples for sale on the 'net that ACTUALLY WORK, and that are used by climbing
professionals and special forces, then you've no hope of making such a thing yourself and NOT having it fail on you, resulting in yet another k3Wl death.
Though, if you are to die from anything you find on this site, this would be the best thing for all concerned, as it's not going to make the news as yet another "TEEN WITH
BOMB DIES!" story that'll make real pyros look bad, and your family will still be able to have an open casket service for you...maybe...depending on how far you fall.
:D

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Questions on web riping & PDFing
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Dave the Rave April 13th, 2004, 06:23 PM

I am planing some new files, on mine making and anti-armor weapons, but I have some doubts... Which program is suitable for web ripping ? Many of the informations Ive
found are on websites, and I need to download all its contents to ease my work.
And is possible to edit an already made PDF ? How can I do it ? Any sugestion about programs that allows me to do it ?
Any sugestion is wellcome...

I've got a program called "WebReaper", from http://www.webreaper.net/ which really does the job. It handles Javascript and most things, but you can't tell it to override the
spiders.txt file, which is a shame. I've had it wander off and download for an entire night, and it works well. The bonus is that each Top Level Domain goes into a different
folder, so you can scrap the obvious junk that your filter config missed, and see clearly lots of other interesting sites that you might have missed the link to otherwise.

Please note, this conversation will not be allowed to move onto the topic of cracking PDF files - removing security and such.
When I need to get a webpage, I just use webcapture on Acrobat.
MightyQuinn April 14th, 2004, 03:22 AM

I have a program that will open *most* pdf files in Microsoft Word. Keeps all the formatting and allows editing. You may save the file in a .doc format from there.
It will not work on protected .pdf's, but does a good job for the most part.
Also....OmniPage Pro will do the same job, but better.
steyr April 14th, 2004, 11:20 AM

Is here someone who has link to Adobe Webcapture?
I want to rip some www's - of course E&W related and put them on ftp.
aikon April 14th, 2004, 11:29 AM

For downloading web-pages i use the Oflline Explorer from metaproducts.
Just visit their homepage and try it for 30 days free.
http://www.metaproducts.com/

Of Course that we wont talk about cracking PDF, that will be ilegal !!!
My idea is just to have the hability of edit and translate the language of the informations inside the file. Rigth now, Im working on an tradution of the Abwehr, from german to
english, but I want to keep the original images and formating...
Migthyquinn, whats the website and the name of the program you use to edit ? And where can I found omnipage pro ?
JC, thanks about webreaper, Ill try it. If I have any question, may I ask it to you ?
I dont know nothing about webcapture on adobe, its an plugin or its already on the full program ? Can you tell me more, please Zaibatsu ?
And by the way, what happened at your Nick ? Where is your capitalysed " Z " ?
-------------
Ive now found the "solid converter pro" to edit PDF files, Ill try it now.

Sorry, I should have explained a little more. All this information will relate to the version of Adobe Acrobat I use, v6 Professional.
On the menus, go to File, Create PDF, From Web Page and then obviously select what you want. To get most pages it's rather simple to just select get entire site, which seems
to work fine for me. I used this to grab a website featuring single-shot rifle patents, and it worked very nicely.
To get Acrobat 6, the easiest way would be to download the 30 day trial from Adobe's website, and then find a crack for it, such as one of the cracks which introduce a new
exe launcher file.
Dave:
Zaibatsu, zaibatsu, it's all the same to me.

Nope, the "solid converter pro" sucks...
It cant convert images, just plain text, so the main purpose that is change text but keep images is lost...
Ill search more for an converter that can handle images... Im still taking advices & sugestions.
-----------------------------
Another topic inside the topic, how about "uncook" files om PDF ? Those files that contain itens that the adobe cant handle and therefore turns all the file into crap ? Is there
any program that can correct it ?

Dave,
if you want to ask questions go ahead. I'm no expert with Webreaper - I tend to use Firefox (the browser) to rip any pages now, it is only full sites that I want to copy that I
use webreaper for, and then on a fast connection!
MightyQuinn April 14th, 2004, 07:31 PM
.... I want to keep the original images and formating...
Migthyquinn, whats the website and the name of the program you use to edit ? And where can I found omnipage pro ?
I have ScanSoft PDF Converter for Word. It keeps all images and formatting and such. Email me and I will get it to you.
**Edit.....I will add the link for the PDF software below.
http://www.50caliber.net/pdfs/pdfc.zip
I am still in search of OmniPage Pro 14 made by the same company. ;)
jelly April 14th, 2004, 08:46 PM

aikon is right... I highly recommend the "Offline Explorer Enterprise"!!!
I have tried out many website rippers... this $400 program is the best of all.
And it's the only ripper that can record streaming audio/video to your hard disk
(e.g. Real Media or Windows Media Player files via RTSP:// or MMS://).
http://www.metaproducts.com/mp/mpProducts_Detail.asp?id=17
You'll find it at metaproducts.com... or on the emule network ;)
a_bab April 15th, 2004, 06:15 AM

I use Teleport Pro. Very easy to use, very fast.

What's wrong with hitting "File" and "Save As," and saving it as a web archive (.mht) file? That's what I do. Any version of IE should be able to open it.
skier4life99 February 23rd, 2005, 04:42 PM

If you are looking to export any type of office document into .pdf, Open Office works great; It has an "Export to PDF..." option under the File menu. So if you can get your
data into a format viewable in MS Office, you can use Open Office to convert it. Best part is that it's free so no illegal cracks or anything to weight on your mind.
http://www.openoffice.org/
Silentnite February 27th, 2005, 03:14 AM

If you install either the latest Adobe, or maybe the latest Adobe Photoshop CS, Either way, on my computer I did both. I run OpenOffice, and somehow my main "PRINT"
button goes directly to a pdf. It "prints" the file to a pdf.
If any of the more adept Adobe users would like to further explain this phenomenon I'd greatly appreciate it. Beyond that, I hope you can duplicate it.
P.S. Look in the RogueScience gmail account for Offline Explorer.
MightyQuinn February 27th, 2005, 10:28 PM

I run OpenOffice, and somehow my main "PRINT" button goes directly to a pdf. It "prints" the file to a pdf.
If any of the more adept Adobe users would like to further explain this phenomenon I'd greatly appreciate it.
If you open you printers folder, you may notice that the pdf printer is set as the default printer. Set your normal printer as the default (Right click and choose 'set as default')
and the problem should correct itself.
Then you can always choose to print to a .pdf by selecting 'file' then 'print' to choose the printer you want to print to.
dguy March 8th, 2005, 10:26 AM

Magellan Server (http://www.bcltechnologies.com/document/products/magellan/magellan_workflow.htm) Lite can do PDF's with graphics to HTML, you can enter a false email
straight away at the above URL and download directly. Things to beware, you must copy a folders contents and it will encompass the folder you choose it to copy to, it tags
html (easy to remove) and finally it deletes source folder contents!



Magellan Server (http://www.bcltechnologies.com/document/products/magellan/magellan_workflow.htm) Lite can convert PDF's with images to HTML. But there's are some
things to be aware of.



There is also a suite of PDF tools from a company called PDF995, which are quite powerful, free (advertware, or you can pay to unlock for faster operation and no adverts) but
some of the features aren't insanely user friendly.
Lets you do things like break a PDF into individual pages, add a stamp, export pages as graphics, rip out the text, and lots more. Also has a PDF fake printer so you can print
anything to a windows printer that is really a PDF file on disk.
http://www.pdf995.com


Silentnite April 5th, 2005, 08:49 PM

http://mscracks.com/cracks/P5.php Almost all the way down the page, there are some Keygens for PDF995. That should help with the adware and such. Just make sure to run
a virus check!

a virus check!

a virus check!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > C ost of Building Herf/Emp
W eapon.
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View Full Version : Cost of Building Herf/Emp Weapon.
JamesyBHOY April 14th, 2004, 01:30 AM

Just wondering what some of your opinions are on this.
Learn to use the capitalized letter
I have read people saying that they can do it for a couple of Hundred Do llars,while others say it would take thousan ds to build
a fully working device.I would rather attem pt to build a Herf rather than Emp,Since i would need it to be as quiet as possible
and it would need to work from a range of at le ast from 15/20 Meters,to the furth er the better.Hypothetically it would be
needed to beat a standard security system (CCTV,Alarm Etc).
I
I just though t it would be better to ask p e o p l e m ore in the know than m e on the constructions costs of one of these devices,As
last year,I th ought my Girlfriend was Pum p i n g s o m e o n e else,So being the Paranoid Bastar# that i am i ordered plans from P&K
for the Laser Listener which they said would only cost $200 to bu ild,Being from the UK,It cost a lot m ore sin ce it was hard to
find around 1/3 of the parts here & i had to get a couple of electronics stores to order them in for m e.All in all it cost about
$400 & they claim that it has a range of 100's of m etres,Bollocks,The range is shit & when the blinds/curtains are closed it's
alm o s t i m p o s s i b l e t o m a k e a n y t h i n g o ut.
when referrin g to yourself.
So,Basically i I have a price limit of $1000 maybe pushing $1500 & i need to m ake sure i have the correct funds to com p l e t e
the unit.As i can't afford to have it half done then run out of cash.
NBK
Any opinions on realistic prices are appreciated.
Tuatara April 14th, 2004, 03:55 AM

The answer to this all depends on just how skilled you are at aquiring parts.
The easy way - gettin g out the catalogues and the credit card - will cost you big dollars, maybe $1k.
The smart way involves lots of hunting for junk / used / surplus / scrap a nd being inventive with what you find / beg / steal.
Done right, you m ight get the cost down to $10 .
So hone up you junk hunting skills ...
Spoz May 14th, 2004, 05:08 AM

This is all crap, you can build one for free.
Go to a scrapyard or wait till your next dump-day, and find a microwave oven.
Go to a scrapyard or wait till your next dump-day, and find som e s h e e t m etal.
Bend your horn with the sheet m e t a l , a s s e m b l e t h e m icrowave parts into one com pact unit and build a power supply, you can
m ake one with D size batteries if you dont m ind replacing them often.
If you do it right (by the sounds of things, this isnt very likely) b ut if you do, it sh ould be able to crash com p u t e r s f r o m 3 0 m
away, depending on your horn design, output power of the m agnetron, power sup ply etc. It should be able to really annoy an
alarm system from 15-20m away, but anything with a m etal case tends to be quite difficult to destroy. Forg et an EMP, at tha t
distance it re ally will set you back thousands, and the thing will be huge.
also see www.voltsam p s . c o m t h e y g o t s o m e good info there.

You are aware of course, that microwaves (even from fa ulty m icrowave ovens) have been known to cause cataracts? (over a
period of tim e)
O n e m istake in your waveguide.. one teeny cra ck... and you and any of your nearby equipment could run into a bit of grief.
The cost of the whole setup would be well under a thousand Rup ees-PK (sorry I don't know the conversion rate... its on the web
though). If you do build it, try it out on a cheapo security camera... I personally think the results won't be worth the effort.
Y o u c a n s e e a d e m o o f a h o m e m a d e m icrowave setup on Powerlabs, I think.
And about your GF and her un authorized rum py-pumpy... m y sym pathies. If you're still hell bent o n spying on her, do it the
old fashioned way and plant a bug in her surroundings. I sent a file to th e FTP called "kilo meter ra nge FM transm itter"....
JamesyBHOY May 20th, 2004, 07:51 PM

W ell,It's easy to get old Microwave ovens if you look through those advertisement papers,You see people offering them free if
they are collected or they are dirt cheap if they were asking for money.The reason that i have not already went down that road
before was that i wasn't sure if standard hom e m icrowave parts would be able to do the job.
The Cctv cam era is an old IR one in a Metal Housing & I am around 95% sure that it isn't monitored live or Uploaded to FTP
etc,It would be best to Temp Block/Jam it for stealth pu rposes,However that isn't the main priority, that belongs to the Alarm
System which by all accounts,seems to be a pretty Basic Model with Main Box O utside being overlooked by the Cctv,then it has
a keypad inside which i don't and can't be able to get the disarm code fo r.Also it has Autodialer,C o u p l e o f I R S e n s o r s p l a c e d i n
the hallways(1 Entrance & 1 Upper Floor,You ne ed to go up the small set of stairs to get to the upper floor and it's around the
corner which is unavoidable to get past any other way.
It would need to work from at least 20m but obviously the further the better & the m ore powerful it is would n't do any harm
either.
So i don't forsee bein g able to build a unit,that will be e ffective on the whole building,So the only other alte rnative that i can
see is to Use it only on the Main Alarm H o u s i n g o n t h e O utside of the Bu ilding an d cut the phone cable,So then it won't matter
because the autodialer can't connect to the phone line & if you trigger an y of the IR sensors then it won't m a k e a n y d i f f e r e n c e
either since the m ain unit outside is being taken care of by the Herf & won't be able to sound the 120/140db siren to attract
any unwanted attention.
nbk2000 May 20th, 2004, 08:00 PM
How is it, JamesyBHO Y, that you've m anaged to capitalize just a bout every letter in every sentence but "I", when referring to
yourself?
JamesyBHOY May 20th, 2004, 08:48 PM

To be totally honest,i(I) have never given it any real thought,Perhaps just a Bad Habbit or m a y b e i d o n ' t s e e m e a s b e i n g
im portant en ough to "capitalise" when referring to m yself.Forgive me if i'm wrong,but what's the difference it's only
g r a m m ar.So as long as people understant it then i don't see the problem ,but hey you've been here a lot longer than m e , I
guess you know better,So I will try to stop doing it from now on.Since it m u s t b e b u g g i n g y o u t h a t y o u f e e l t h e n e e d t o
c o m m ent twice on it.
nbk2000 May 20th, 2004, 09:43 PM

Forg ive m e if i'm wrong,but what's the difference it's only gramm ar.
If you can't be arsed to bother with a little deta il like capitalization of a single letter, then why would anyone think you could
get a minor detail like tem perature, or a reagent, right?
In this field, a single error in a procedure can b e fatal, and we have no room for sloppy gram m e r a n d t h e M O R O NS who think
that, since "it's only gram mar", that they don't have to bother with it.
HED.
How many fa talities h a v e w e h a d b y m e m b e r s w h o m a d e m istak es? Five, and tha t's only the m e m b e r s t h e m s e l v e s , n o t
including the incidential "collateral dam a g e " o f k i l l e d b y s t a n d e r s .
And those are just the ones that we know about. No telling how m any m e m b e r s h a v e s i m p l y " d i s a p p e a r e d " b e c a u s e n o b o b y
here knew th a t t h e y h a d d i e d .
A n d w e h a v e m e m bers here who are typing their replies with less than the 10 fing ers they were born with because of careless
m istakes.
Slop py gramm er is a sym ptom of sloppy thinking and sloppy thinking is death when working with explosives.
I realize that a lot of our mem bers are young, and the young aren't even aware of their own mortality, so us old foggies have
t o k e e p be at ing it int o t h e i r h e a ds a s p a i n fu l l y a s po ssi bl e i n t he ho pes t ha t t he l es s o n s t i c ks .
mongo blongo May 21st, 20 04, 05:4 3 PM

I agree it's sloppy thinking an d carelessness. I'm dyslexic and I have wo rse spelling, gramm a r a n d m a t h s t h a n a n y o n e I
know. I have overcom e this problem with a thing called EFFOR T. It probably takes m e m a y b e 1 0 t i m e s a s l o n g t o m a k e a p o s t
t h a n e v e r y o n e e l s e h e r e b u t d o y o u s e e m e r a p i n g t h e E n g l i s h l a u n a g e ? I a d m it I can't write anything to th e quality of NBK or
m any other m e m b e r s h e r e b u t I do my best!
15 mins to write that!
Y O U have no excuse! :mad:
Jacks Complete June 1st, 2004, 08:56 AM

I a b s o l u t e l y a g r e e . L o o k a t " C aptain Hook" who just got sent down for preaching terror here - his two hooks have been taken
off him as "offensive weapons". He lost his hands playing with explosives in Afghanistan (or somewhere like that) a nd now has
no hands. I wonder how he even opens doors, let alone goes to the loo. Must be fun in a prison setting. Couldn't happen to a
nicer guy, m ind...
As for getting past the camera, why no t just blind it? Either set up a nice little jig for a laser, and shine that into the lense using
a s m all mirror, or use a million plus ca ndlepower spotlight. Hell, you could even wear a m ask! If it isn't a live feed, why the
concern? Do the owners know you well enough to ID you from yo u r s h a p e a n d g a i t ?
D i d y o u r e a d t h e t h r e a d a b o u t g e t t i n g p a s t I R s e n s o r s ? I f I c o u l d f i n d t h e d a m n e d s m o k e , I would try my idea rega rding the

c a n n e d s m o k e ( s i n c e I f o u n d m y I R s e n s o r l a m p), but there is some good stuff in there.
Nevermore S e p t e m b e r 1 3th, 2004, 07:35 PM

Microwave oven devices are not effective as an HERF weapon, first of all, you need a big strong pulse instead of a continuous
field ..
This can be obtained by discharging powerful capacitors on the Magnetron, but, well, capacitor are not cheap, and from an
8 0 0 W m agnetron, u could hope to get not m ore than 2KW p e a k p u l s e , e nough sure only for disabling devices up to few
m eters...
If you can get ur dirty hands on a Radar Magnetron, it would be far easy, they can stand peak pulse up to 100MW, so they will
be able to disable electronic d evices 50-100 m eter far if well focalized.
You would prefer an higher freq so that is possible to use a sma ller wave guide getting a g ood gain anyway, getting 20-30db
gain is a nice thing since makes your em p p u l s e s o m ething like a tidal wave.
Beside that, when working im pulsively, you don 't need to worry about microwaves, pulses are ineffective against humans and
other living stuff, neither they will give your nasty problems like cataracts and so on..
T h e m a i n p r o b l e m is that you will have big capacitors charged with lethal amount of energy...
i was thinking about a portable herf device capable of disabling at 10-15 meters, small enough to be hidden in the back of the
car, in order to fry all the speed traps the stupid pigs keep putting to get m oney..
Pb1 S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2004, 07:39 PM

W ould that fry your car's electronics, along with other nearby cars, or would the metal bodies act as farraday cages? The idea
certianly is interesting, though...
Roen Hayden January 29th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 3 : 1 9 P M

http://www.eio.com/public/inductor/0024.htm l
Check this out not sure if it has been posted before but the inform a t i o n t h e r e s e e m s like it would work.
iHME February 7th, 2008, 04:27 PM

As far as I know the only well working civilian em p is m ade by th e Experim ental Interaction Unit (EIU). They used it to create a
3 0 m radius Technology Free Zone (TFZ). Unlike som e a d v e r t i s e d p l a n s a n d d e s i g n s t h i s o n e h a s b e e n m ade reality.
They call it "I-Bomb".
Link to their page about I-Bomb (http://www.eiu.org/experim ents/i-bom b/)
jimmyboy1 February 7th, 2008, 06:04 PM

H a h a h a r a d a r magnetron -- yeah and if you focus it wro ng you blind yourself permanently and blow out all the electronics in
your house - it would be m uch safer to plant a gunn dio de circuit near the electronic device in question if you can sn e a k i t i n s o
you don't need all that range.. plus you won't go blind and sterile at lower power levels -- I have yet to try it out but it is a very
sound design and won't cost a couple grand to build - if you focus it right and get the parts used you might be able to do it
with less than a frank lin.
Silentnite February 11th, 2008, 06:38 PM

Enlighten m e , I g o o g l e d G u n n Diode and I can't quite understan d its application. Would it be the RF interfe rence at short range
you'd be looking for?
Positron February 17th, 2008, 04:07 PM

Quotes from Neverm ore:
Beside that, when working im pulsively, you don 't need to worry about microwaves, pulses are ineffective against humans and
other living stuff, neither they will give your nasty problems like cataracts and so on..
T h e m a i n p r o b l e m is that you will have big capacitors charged with lethal amount of energy...
Uh-huh...and what do you think that that energy is converted into in the m a g n e t r o n ?
Having said that, wou ld you still trust your eyes, thyroid gland, b rain, and reproductive org ans to your first statem e n t a b o v e ?
---------
Jim myboy1, I seriously doubt that a Gunn diode, of any kind, will genera t e e n o u g h R F power to da mage electronics.
I have yet to try it out but it is a very sound design
Oh? How do you know that it is a sound design? Because you think it is? Have you seen it done be f o r e ? D o y o u h a v e a n y
evidence at all that it will work?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Advice on machining cover-story
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View Full Version : Advice on machining cover-story
xperk April 26th, 2004, 06:11 AM

I need some advice or ideas on how to approach a machinist workshop and not have them get the 'wrong' idea of what I want them to make.
Ideally my project would call for a barrel blank - however that is not an option due to regulation.
Now for the project at hand I would need a piece of 4140 round bar drilled, bored and threaded.. this obviously calls for a lathe, which I presently do not have at my disposal -
hence the need for outside involvement.
I was thinking of ordering an 'adapter prototype', the 'adapter' I imagine would be needed in an either high stress environment requiring a high margin of safety. Of such places
I can think of would be axles or connecting sections.
As the attached drawing illustrates the cover story for the project gets thinner as the adapter gets longer.
The cover story I could think of would embarrasingly be 'an adapter for a scuba tank' as this would explain the quality of the steel and tensile stress involved plus it would
explain why heck I would be willing to pay to have one made. The precision of the internal diameter of the adapter would be required for optimal airflow. The thread
specification would have to correlate to that of a scuba tank.
On the downside is the obvious problem of a guy wanting a corrosive metal adapter for scuba diving ...
This request for advice may seem premature, however I live in a small town, and the project being rejected at one machine shop would result in failure to get the device made
locally.
Any experience related to approaching machine shop are welcome.
Corona April 26th, 2004, 06:30 AM

How about you ask them nicely? :-)
No, I'm serious. My point is, *don't* try to be creative with the truth, and don't try any BS with these people. In my experiance, these people can see right through you.
I think the biggest motivator is *repeat business*. The guys here know, I'm a regular customer for having tiny precision components machined. If I ever request them for the
thing you want, they might raise an eyebrow, but they won't rat on me.
What matters to them is how good a customer you are and how mature you are. If they get the impression that you're out to dispatch someone using something THEY
made.... well, thats that then, isn't it?
Remember... Don't try any BS. And be a good and regular customer for other items. You will not have any problems.

Corona,
I appreciate your comments, and I agree that to some extent 'a common understanding' with the machinist is preferrable to playing games.
However I feel that it is also somewhat of a balance between achieving a trust relationship and delievering too much information that may later compromise you. A trust
relationship could also produce a complete production list of your various devices.
The advice about having several items made in advance of the project component is certainly a sound one and will go along way to achieve some of the things you
recommend. And yes, I do get that the other items should be of unquestionable nature.
Still I would like some degree of official explanation as to the nature of the component as this would not only have value in relation to manufacture, but could also prove
valuable at a later time. E.g storing or transporting a component that primarily serves legal functions, but remains available for other purposes.
Have others had adapters made or are you just all blessed with easy available barrels?
zaibatsu April 27th, 2004, 07:54 AM

Xperk,
While I don't agree that Corona's is the best idea for you, it does have some useful points. Why not slightly modify his idea, and instead say it is for an airgun? Airguns are legal
is most of Europe, so I'm assuming they are in the Netherlands. Also, since this is going to be smoothbore, obviously accuracy isn't too much of a concern, so couldn't you just
use an airgun barrel? I'm sure you could lap the airgun barrel to the required ID, although it may take a while.
Corona April 27th, 2004, 09:12 AM

A few thoughts and observations:
1. I live in K arachi with 13 million other people. I use 4 machinists for my regular work. They know me well and I can joke around with them. Of course, you cant tell
them everything The way we do it is, we have developed an unspoken understanding I dont tell them what its for, and they dont ask. THAT is the attitude repeat
business creates for you. The machinist wont pry.
2. I use precision parts for my work. So that nobody has the complete picture, I use.. like I said 4 different machine shops. At one time I used 7.
3. People here like to get some work done and pay later or haggle about the price. Not me. I pay whatever the machinist asks me to pay for the service. I have found the
prices to be reasonable, so it is okay. The guys appreciate this. Nobody likes a headache.
4. You are right though. There is a risk in saying too much, because the machinists are like a mafia. All of them know or have heard of every other machinist or thats
what it seems like to me. But over here, because of the competition in their line of business, they know the value of keeping customer confidentiality... even from the law.
5. These people have GREAT memories.
6. Also keep in mind that even though I have found machinists to be pretty bright.. a cop will always be a cop. Sub-intelligent monkey. Any good story will do and I think
Zaibatsu's is the best.
7. And finally You have a little brother? Or better yet.. a little sister? Less then 10 years old will be best. If not, then BORROW the kid from your neighbors or
somewhere. Go with the kid. Seeing you with your little sister or little brother defuses any alarms going off. Human nature. Just makes your life that much easier.
Good luck.

zaibatsu,
the airgun barrel solution has crossed my mind and I might go for it for the early stage prototype - I acknowledge lapping will be needed.. and probably epoxying it into a DOM
tube for safety as the airgun barrels I have previously played around with where scaringly easy to cut.
The machining story for an airgun barrel is quite good as a compressed air design a la 'Gunpower' design would require an adapter piece between the tank and the actual
barrel. Thanks!
JoeJablomy April 27th, 2004, 04:59 PM

Corona: You live in PAKISTAN? I may be wrong, but I had the impression that gunsmithing was a widely practiced craft there; machinists and society in general are probably
much less averse to guns that politically correct Europeans. Even in America, people look at big things and say "You could hurt someone with that," and in Europe the
idea of making something specifically for threatening/hurting people might make business owners very uncomfortable. That's why PC-ness is detestable.
xperk: Even a long barrel blank would resemble some kind of cutting tool shaft or extender.
As for questions, you don't need good or detailed answers if you don't let them ask a whole bunch of questions. Walk in, tell them you need the part, give them a drawing, pay
them, and leave. Just label the drawing "DRILL SHAFT" (for an old rock drill that you can't find new parts for) and look like you're not really interested in chatting. When they
ask, the subject is boring, and isn't worth a definite, detailed answer that might lead them to more annoying questions. It might help if they are large and busy themselves.
Anyway, how do you plan on forming the chamber?
xperk April 27th, 2004, 05:12 PM

JoeJablomy,
hmm drill part might work..
I plan on forming the chamber using a chamber reamer from one of the parts shops online. I am unsure if that is the correct way to go about it.
hehe.. I actually visited Pakistan once, in one of the gunshops I was offered a 10 shot (!!) revolver.. I mean the drum was huge but talk about thin chamber walls :-)
Bigfoot April 29th, 2004, 02:21 PM

You're trying to build a vibration-free stand for your telescope...the part you need is for an air bearing housing. Hence close tolerances needed, esp. in the bore. If anyone
there has ever made or seen an airbearing, he'll understand the need to have it lapped to precise tolerances. Spiral flutes running the length of the bore would also be part of
an air bearing.
I was once tasked with assembling the device to cut flutes in the bore of an airbearing. It's essentially a rifling cutter, without the twist.
xperk April 29th, 2004, 05:05 PM

Bigfoot,
oh yeah now we're talking :-)

I took a look at around the web in the subject - seems like its the sort of hoovercraft of bearings right (pardon my ignorance).
So following my mickey mouse research on the subject of air bearings the device would be a spindle for an air bearing ..
Coupled with the astronomic need for precision I feel that we have a winner.

Lets see, you could be building an airplane part, an automotive assembly, a air jet for your hot tub, a pneumatic machine assembly, a custom pressure washer attachment, or
some vage component for a manufacturing machine like an injection molder or vacuum former. Just be consistent, but best not to mention anything gun - air or otherwise.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > An interesting site about reloading bullet cartridges
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akinrog May 1st, 2004, 11:04 AM

Hi
I found the following links on the net while searching for info regarding improvised ammo. Although the site(s) is not about improvised ammo, it provides a wealth of
information on reloading, etc.
Anyway the links are :
Rocky Mountain Survival Group (http://www.rmsg.us/fire/reloadin.htm). (Origin of the links)
Reloadbench (http://www.reloadbench.com/main.html). (Actual reloading info)
Quick Reloading Reference Guide (http://www.reloadbench.com/gloss/guide.html). (A glimpse of this site).
Hope these links are useful for forumites :)
Edit: another link (http://www.reloadammo.com/).
DimmuJesus May 18th, 2004, 06:34 PM

Ammo reloading is an important skill for certain people to possess. If ammo, or certain types of ammo, become hard to find, reloading is what will need to be done.
However, ammo reloading is not the best way to go when ammunition is as easy to come by as it is now. With the cost of equipment and supplies, you'd break even in cost
with just purchasing the ammo, minus the time spent.

That very much depends where you are in the world.
Some places, like the UK, have lots of laws against holding, for example, a hollowpointed bullet, even when it isn't in a round. That's right - you can go to jail for owning a
certain shaped lump of lead.
Powders and primers are tricky to get without a license, too.
Of course, like so many laws, it only affects those who would use them legally, since you can re-activate a spent primer with a match head. Takes a while to fiddle and make
them, but then if you are killing people, how many rounds will you need for a night out? The guys who go down the range, however, are royally fucked.
Loading your own also allows you to be more flexible than shop-bought, in what you put into the case as a powder load, and what bullet type and weight you want to use. For
instance, shooting full-power 7.62mm rounds will draw a lot of attention in most places. Reduce the powder charge to 10% and it won't go supersonic, and is therefore much
quieter. Conversely, you can keep going with power levels that exceed factory ammo if you know how to watch for pressure signs, and make your rounds more powerful and,
for the money, more accurate.
So yes, these links are very useful.
zaibatsu May 19th, 2004, 06:27 AM

Jack's Complete:
Do you know how to create cases for obsolete chamberings? There is a straight pull swiss rifle often for sale in magazines such as GunMart, which is in an absolete (6.5mm
calibre I think) chambering, and it seems to be the "newest" rifle you can buy without a licence. I can't remember the exact round it's chambered for, but assuming the action
is safe, I should think either BP or light nc reloads could be fun.

Dear Forumites,
Since I am DIY type guy, I am really curious, how the cartridge cases are made.
I mean I saw on Poor Man's James Bond series, how cartridges are pressed roughly. They start with a certain thickness of brass sheets (exact thickness of which the book does
not specify) and uses special presses and precision dies to convert it into cartridges.
BTW, during pressing process, they occasionally subject the semifinished cartridges to heat treatment in order to prevent brittleness/extreme hardening. Anybody has
occassionally have a book regarding the exact procedure for manufacturing cartridge cases.
Of course such a thing (i.e. manufacturing your own cartridge cases) is an extreme situation, but nobody can know what shall happen in near and distant future :(.
I mean the world may become a ruin due to a disaster devised by divinity or human beings. :(
JoeJablomy May 20th, 2004, 02:39 AM

6.5mm Swiss shouldn't be too hard to find, although I say that as an American who has a few spent 6.5 Swiss issue casings from the shooting range in his collection. Since it's a
Mauser family round, it might not be too hard to form it from any larger Mauser casing like 7mm, 7.62x51, etc., although I can't say someone who actually reloads won't come
out now and say, "No, they have the same size bases but are totally different."
--------------------
Actually, there is the difference that the rim is a bit thicker than the others; it has a .055" thick rim, whereas the other old Mausers have .045, and .308 & co. have .049. This
still may not be fatal. My surplus cases are also berdan primed, although if you're desperate enough... well, you probably know about the GOW method.
As for making your own cases: deep drawing stuff is so heavy industrial that I seriously doubt there is any information available on it at all, because only companies and
governments do it and they probably don't see any profit in writing books about it. On the other hand the process is spreading out into all kinds of other industries like steel
pots, aluminum briefcases, etc., so there might be a textbook or handbook if you look hard enough.
There are enough small custom casing shops in America that there may be people in the know who'll talk to you about it.
There are other ways, though. They tend to be much more expensive but might not require so much capital. I seem to remember the martini-henry originally used casings
where the sides were made from brass sheet soldered into a tube and onto a base, with a really ugly crimped bottleneck. In a more modern setting I've thought of spinning the
body from a piece of brass or aluminum tubing and rotation welding it to a machined base.
In fact, I'd make the base so with a cupped front that extends for about 1/3 base diameter above the bottom of the powder chamber, and the only spinning operation done to
the sidewall/body piece would be to neck down one end to fit the cup and further turn in that edge for welding to the base. Rotation welding might require a mandrel going
through the body to hold that edge out and press it against the base, which is why I wouldn't try to spin the taper and bottleneck before this (and it would also be difficult to
make a form to fit inside for forming on both ends and then remove :). The taper and bottleneck would then be made with a forming die or three as is done on commercial
casings. In fact, you could probably use a die to form the base contour, too.
There are two things I would add by way of clarification:
1.I don't actually know about rotation welding. You'll need a lathe anyway to make the bases, so you should have most of the equipment anyway. Or it could be one of those
really finicky processes you would have to really invest in. You might just solder the bases; worked before:)
2.People who I trust would know a lot about this stuff are very concerned with the strength/design of the base area because of course the one thing you do not want is a base
seperation. Without drawings, all I can say is I would make the joint between these parts so that it faces 'backward,' i.e. with the chamber surface of ths joint flat against the
bottom of the case, so that the pressure force doesn't tend to open the 'hole' in the bottom of the body tube or to otherwise move it in any direction in which it is not rigidly
supported. Speaking of rigid support, it would also be necessary to ensure there is no gap between the base cup and the walls, as the pressure would force this gap to be filled,
which would cause 'dilation' and strain the weld. It may be possible to fill the entire contact area with solder. Hell, if you're all about HE, it might be possible to explosively weld
it, with a really small charge.
zaibatsu May 20th, 2004, 04:01 AM

Found the info, but it's a little different to how I remembered.
The rifles are Schimdt-Rubin Model 1889s, chambered in 7.5x53.5mm. Any suggestions or potential?
MightyQuinn May 20th, 2004, 08:19 AM

Zaibatsu, Here is a link for some 6.5 x 55 Swiss ammo.
It is fairly new, Federal Ammo.
http://ammoman.com/webstore_655x55.htm
Hope this helps.
zaibatsu May 20th, 2004, 02:17 PM

A google search turned up some interesting info - 7.5x55mm Swiss cases can be trimmed back 1.5mm and used for this rifle. The only option in the UK would be to reload for
these rifles, handily skipping the need for an FAC. Swiss rifles also have a reputation for accuracy, would seem a good choice for anyone needing to shoot over medium range.

Jack's Complete:
Do you know how to create cases for obsolete chamberings?
Good plan... There are a few ways.

Fire forming
Machining
Swaging
In reverse order - swaging is the way the big guys do it. Big powerful presses and lots of custom dies. I have the bits to a 5.56mm round, from the different stages of a factory
tour, as the brass is hammered into the right shape over 23 (iirc) processes. Way out the question for us!
- Machining is how the big cases in small numbers are made, for things like Nitro Express 600. The upside is, you just need a lathe. The downside is, you just need a lathe.
Also, 6.5mm is perhaps rather small to lathe out from a brass rod. You would also need to find some 70/30 brass rod, and most of it will become swarf!
- Fireforming is the best bet, since 6.5mm is reasonably close to other calibres. Not sure which 6.5mm cartridge you are meaning, as there are the following:
# 6.5mm Bergmann No.3 Pistol (W&M)
# 6.5mm Mannlicher Pistol M.1894 (W&M)
# 6.5mm Mondragon (Hu)
# 6.5mm x 27R (D)
# 6.5mm x 4OR (B)
# 6.5mm x 48R Sauer (B)
# 6.5mm Ronezewsky (E&B)
Edit: 7.5mm gives:

# 7.5mm x 53.5R Rubin (H)
# 7.5mm x 53.5 Rimless Rubin (H)
# 7.5mmx53 Swiss Schmidt Rubin M.1890 (H)
To fireform, what you do is find a cartridge that is close to the one you need. Try your best to get one with a near match on the base, so that you have a hope of the extractor
working. Now, ensure the round (still an empty case at this stage) will chamber and the bolt will close correctly.
Next, get a bullet, soft lead preferably, to fit the case you are using. If it is too long, it isn't a problem, since you can simply ream it back to the required length before loading
your round. If too short, you may have issues.
Make sure (very sure!) that the cutting back you do won't reach the web at the base of the cartridge, as that bit is too tough to fireform.
Now, load up your cartridge. Use a 100% load for the round that you would be firing if you had it, or one for the cut down cartridge, which ever is the lower.
Chamber your round so that you have a good backstop, etc. and fire it with a lanyard.
In theory, you should find that the cartridge has been blown open to fit the dimensions of the chamber! This certainly happens in most rifles, less so in pistols, due to the lower
pressures. Of course, if the seal between the base of the cartridge and the face of the bolt is too slight, it might just blow the bolt of the gun out, backwards, at a rate of knots.
This is highly theoretical, of course. You would probably be best to make a cartridge to the right size in a lathe, and then fireform that. You will have to trim it back if you use
full-power loads, but if you keep the load below about 85%, you will get a lot of shots per case. This is because the case won't "flow", which is essential to fireforming.
Edit 2:
Note that the case you are talking about trimming back is also technically obsolete, so you still will have fun finding it!! The Swedish Mauser rounds mentioned are (probably)
totally unsuitable, and are not anything like obsolete, they are an FAC job, but very definately so unusual that you will have to get a special order - few people will have
authority for that calibre, and most shops won't have it, even if you did have a slot on your ticket.
Edit 3:
http://www.swissrifles.com/ammo/ tells a few stories about the rounds. At the bottom is a very useful comparison table. Sadly, I suspect the shoulders on the rounds will be a
little out, but you should be able to "tune" it with a hammer! Actually, no chance. The picture under the table shows a side-by-side comparison. You will never chamber the left
round in a rifle designed for the right one! I think someone got confused saying you could just trim it!
JoeJablomy May 21st, 2004, 03:38 AM

I think that picture (if it's "GP11 & GP90 Side-by-side ") is comparing 7.5 and 5.6mm (5.56mm NATO equivalent) rounds. Kind of explains how the two 7.5mm rounds look so
different :) It's kind of confusing how he suddenly throws that in without changing over to 5.6mm.
HVD May 21st, 2004, 07:47 AM

Some places, like the UK, have lots of laws against holding, for example, a hollowpointed bullet, even when it isn't in a round. That's right - you can go to jail for owning a
certain shaped lump of lead.
Powders and primers are tricky to get without a license, too.
Actually, in the UK you need a firearms license to buy completed ammunition only. You can buy all reloading components without a firearms license, including all types of single
and double base smokeless powder, primers, bullets etc.
If you buy from a gun shop i suppose they may still ask to see your licence if they don't know your face, but you could just come up with a convincing lie and remind them it's
not the law, ie "I'm new here, i havn't brought my license because in my last gun shop they never asked for it, you don't need it you know!"
However, I've never risked it and simply purchase all i want at knock down prices online. Yes, you can have primers and powder simply mailed to your front door! Obviously
don't buy too much, as you may raise some akward questions.
HVD.
zaibatsu May 21st, 2004, 08:49 AM

HVD:
I think you will find you're wrong. As Jack quite rightly points out, hollow-pointed bullets, or "all projectiles designed to expand" cannot be sold to someone without a special
clause on their FAC.
HVD May 23rd, 2004, 03:47 PM

HVD:
I think you will find you're wrong. As Jack quite rightly points out, hollow-pointed bullets, or "all projectiles designed to expand" cannot be sold to someone without a special
clause on their FAC.
I appologise, I should have been more specific with my quote. I was referring to "Powders and Primers" only. I'm not aware of the legislation covering hollow points etc so I
can't comment on that.
However, with the current state of firearms law in this country it's very easy to believe. I'm sure it's only a matter of time until they restrict the re-loading components as well.
HVD.
Jacks Complete May 31st, 2004, 03:39 PM

Indeed, it is one of the key parts of the new proposals from the Home Orifice. They want to put primers and powder on ticket, which is so stupid it should be criminal! Surely
they know that one box of ammo keeps a criminal bankrobber in ammo for his entire life? Or do they think they have to change bullets for every robbery? Or that you can't
reactivate a primer in seconds?
I would agree with having to show ID, but to list them all, that's just stupid. Don't forget, either, that the (4?) different types of primers can be used in hundreds of different
rounds! The average copper can't cope with adding up the numbers of rounds!
Just another way to piss off those who already jump through the hoops... :mad:
Edit: Checked yesterday, it isn't even guidance to see the FAC when buying primers or powder. The bullet heads have to be checked for if "designed or adapted to expand".
Those deadly lumps of inert lead are far worse than something that is (potentially) 90% nitroglycerine!
tdog49 August 21st, 2004, 12:17 AM

www.beartoothbullets.com
www.accuratereloading.com
both sites have mucha info on reloading
MMIV August 25th, 2004, 02:04 AM

i was thinking of using one of those shop presses to press the sheet of brass that is cut into a disc. this brass disc is placed onto a steel plate that has a hole drilled into it
accroding to the size of the cartridge. then the disc is centred in position of the hole and pushed in until the desired shap is obtained. Then make the dies to form the neck and
spin the cart on the lathe to make the rim.
the disadvantages of this method is that you require somthing like a small workshop and access to sheet brass,which is hard to get. alternativley, you could spin a brass or
steel rod on a lathe and go from there.
do you think this idea will work?
johnn 99 October 10th, 2004, 08:27 PM

No MMIV as stated your idea will not work. It will either punch a hole through your brass sheet or put a dent in it and then rip through it. Depending on how much larger your
hole is than the die.
The reason being that you have a sharp edge around your hole,and round the circumference of your rod. Both of which try to stretch and sheer the soft brass as it passes
through the hole. Even if you manage to get it started it is easier for the brass to thin and rip through at the face of the rod than it is for it to compress into itself to pass
through the narrow space between the edge of the hole and the side of the rod.
How ever the basic idea is probably ok to form the shape you want with a few mods.(whether you can produce usable cartridges this way is another story.)
First off find a block of steel say 2 1/2x as deep as your casing is going to be now drill a hole in it the finished size of your cartridge blank plus 2x the thickness of your brass
sheet plus a couple of thou for clearance. Make the hole 2x the length of your casing with a round bottom, now go back and chamfer the first half of the hole so that you have
a cone leading down into a cylinder. round the end of male die (the rod you push with) to match the bottom of the female die ( the hole in the block). Now anneal the hell out
of your brass disk, oil it, center it over the female die and press it. Now you will need to extract it from the die(good luck), and flatten the bottom of the casing with a set of
flat bottomed dies.
This is the method I would start playing with if I wanted to do what your after. How ever there is a lot more to it than what i've written.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > capacitor charging circuit
wanted
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vehemt May 24th, 2004, 03:48 PM

Is anybody able to design a circuit that can cha rge a 9400m fd 200v capa citor in u nder 10(preferrably 5) seconds fro m a
portable battery source? I am willing to offer monetary compensation for said circuit design(15-20usd sound ok?).
Thanks

Unnecessary.
Buy a 12V to 110V inverter fro m your local electronics or automo tive shop. Rectify output. Attach caps. A 10 0W inverter will
have your caps charged in about 1 second.
Any cheap and nasty inverter will do - it doesn't have to have 'sine wave' output, or fancy harmonic filters.
vehemt May 25th, 2004, 12:09 AM

I dont understand what you m ean by rectifying output. Since the inverter will only raise the voltage to 110 does this mean
m odifying the circuit(changing component values) to up the voltage to 200?
thanks
Tuatara May 25th, 2004, 12:18 AM

Rectify m eans add a diode. 110VAC has a peak voltage of 155V, so you will get 155VDC on your capacitor.
It m ay be possible to m odify the output of the inverter, but don't count on it.
W hat is the V rating of your caps? Because if it says 200V on the label, then you don't want to go m uch over 180V with a
sim ple charger.
Secondly, what is your level of electron ics expertise? 9000uF cha rged to 200V is a t l e a s t a s d a n g e r o u s t o y o u r h e a l t h a s a p i l e
of AP. If it doesn't stop your heart, it will still do very na sty thing s to your fingers.
vehemt May 25th, 2004, 12:29 AM

I have a pretty basic knowledge of electronics and com m o n s e n s e .
Cap is rated at 200v and 250v surge.
I g u e s s I c a n b u y a 1 2 to 220 inverter but then I would need to lim it the voltage. How can that be done?
thanks for your replie s
Child-of-Bodom May 25th, 2004, 09:06 AM

Hi!
W hat is very easy and cost effective is to buy a throw-away photocam era, get the circuit out and cu t the cap off. Now attach
your cap to the ends left by the form er cap.
By a high and irritant vioce your cap will be loaded. There is no thread for overloading, the original cap is charged to 300V, b ut
when I attached 3x63V, it kep t constant at 189V.
Another solution is, if you wan t it faster, to open a 12V driven TL or neon lamp, this will co st around 11$. There is an inverter
inside which transform es up to 900V AC. Buy two 1KV diodes to rectify, th ey cost 10cents each. (since 900V AC is 1200V DC!!)
Sim ply attach you cap and m onitor the voltage.
W here do you want to use it for? EBW ? Then you have to use MPK caps as problaby known...electrolytes suck therefore. (I
wasted about 20$ :mad: )
Be indeed very carefull with those caps!! W =1/2 x C x V So your cap gives an impressive 200 Joules!! That one mu s t b e
capable of in stantly vapourising a piece of soldering tin what is shortcutted...
I know that a 180V 480uF cap charged to ~ caused an inmovable hand for about 5 min. (not my hand...)
Even the sm all cap of the thro w-away camera bites nastly AFTER discharg ing via the flash tube...I found out...
I hope I helped you a little,
COB
Doug May 25th, 2004, 05:30 PM

I have a pretty basic knowledge of electronics and com m o n s e n s e .
Cap is rated at 200v and 250v surge.
I g u e s s I c a n b u y a 1 2 to 220 inverter but then I would need to lim it the voltage. How can that be done?
thanks for your replie s
I a s s u m e you're going for 220V inverter as that's the line voltage in Canada? You could just use a half wave rectifier circuit
which if m y calculation is correct will give you a peak voltage output of 15 5V.

NO! Half-wave rectification still gives th e s a m e peak voltage - just with m ore ripple.
Try attached schem atic for a voltage cut-off. This is untested, of course ( I cooked it up in about 5 m inutes). The parts are all
very comm on types. Essentially the voltage from the divider across the cap is com pared to half the battery voltage (~6V), and
when it is larger, the relay turns off, cu tting power to the inverter.
If th e battery is at 12 V the charge will cut off at 204 volts. Lead acid batteries can be as high as 13.5V, so you may wish to
increase the 330k resistor to 390k or 470k to drop the cuttoff voltage.
Doug May 26th, 2004, 04:51 PM

NO! Half-wave rectification still gives th e s a m e peak voltage - just with m ore ripple.
M y a p o l o g i e s , I ' v e l o o k e d i t o v e r a g a i n a n d r e a l i s e d m y flawed calculation. It's been a while since I did rectification, didn't
realise how rusty I wa s...
Just a thought, have you already sourced the capacitor or would it be easier to just get a 350V one ?
vehemt May 29th, 2004, 03:02 PM

Bought the cap last year.
Line voltage in Canada is 110 but I will buy a 1 2 to 220 inverter online.
Tuatara, thank you very m uch for the voltage limiting schematic.

I forgot to add a diode across the relay coil, cathode to positive suypply. This stops the back em f from the coil zapping the
transistor when it turns off.
1N4001 would do for this.
Jumala June 2nd, 2004, 07:49 PM

Hallo vehemt
I saw your nick last a few years ago when the forum was still small and concise.
The attached file is a sim ple 12V to 200-250V transform er circuit including voltage lim iter, oscillator...
I m a d e t h i s p l a n a n d a s a m ple for testing some tim e ago. It is m a d e o n ly from cheap standart pa rts. (no ferrit transformer or
coil winding)
You can use a larger transformer like 4,5VA for faster charging.
I f y o u n e e d m o r e v o l t a g e y o u c a n u s e a v o l t a g e d o u b l e r instead of a bridge rectifier.
I hope it is u seful for you.
Centimeter October 14th , 2004, 12:28 AM

I recently purchased 12 used 2kv/2uF pulse discharge mica-paper polymer capacitors from Cornell Dubilier. I am p l a n n i n g o n
setting them up so as to create an over all ban k value of 12kv/2uF. Is this the best configuration for EBW purposes? I am
look ing for as loud and visualy im presive an explosion as possible. Is this type of capacitor bank that I am looking for or
s h o u l d I s e n d t h e m back and look for different caps? I purchased a 9kv DC transformer that steps up from 150V AC. I also
bought a tun gsten sp ark gap and two high voltage diodes. I would like for the whole thing to be powered by a hand crank
generator. How would I go about attaching the hand crank generator to the transform er? Should I put a capacitor in the circu it
s o a s to even out the voltage? For the overall circuit, wo uld a basic RC ch arging circuit be fine and if so what kind of resistor
s h o u l d I u s e f o r s u c h h i g h v o l t a g e o p e ration? I would also like to be able to attach a cond uctivity meter so I can see when the
caps are charged. I am not sue where the meter should go. I want to m a k e t h e s p a r k g a p o p e r a t e d by a trigger. Would a
piezo igniter for grills work? Any and all help is most apreciated. :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > R equest for 'Building A Melting
Poin t Device' URL
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View Full Version : Request for 'Building A Melting Point Device' URL
AcidBoy2 August 20th, 2004, 10:17 PM

Hey all,
B e f o r e a l l t h e u n p l e a s a n t n e s s h a p p e n e d s o m e o n e h a d p o s t e d a l i n k t o a t u t o r i a l o n b u i l d i n g a h o m e m a d e m elting point
device. I was hoping that if so mebody bookmarked it, or knows of the url, they could repost it here.
TIA
-AB

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Long-Term Concealment of Firearms
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Swindle1984 August 22nd, 2004, 07:05 PM

What are some good methods of concealing/storing your firearms for long periods of time without them being discovered by law enforcement or nosy people?
I've been told that filling a pan with vaseline or cosmoline and bringing it to just under the temperature to boil water is one way to prepare a protective coating for the gun you
plan to store. Submerge the gun completely and let it "cook" for a while, then remove it. It should have a complete coat of vaseline/cosmoline on it. Then wrap it in saran
wrap or similar plastic wrapping and simply bury it. If someone is looking for the gun/s with a metal detector, scattering large numbers of nails, bolts, bits of sheet metal, and
other items beneath the soil should throw off all but the most determined of searches.
However, this still poses several problems. First of all, the gun, while protected, is still exposed to the elements and could be damaged somehow. Second, anyone digging
around with a shovel could accidentally come across a new firearm, free of charge. Third, it's quite possible to forget where you buried the darn thing. Fourth, once you do dig
it up again, it's going to be a pain in the ass to clean out all the gunk.
So what are some alternative methods of preserving and concealing your firearms? How would you keep scopes, magazines, ammunition, slings, and other parts/accessories in
good condition where they won't be discovered by anyone looking for them? What about wooden stocks, handles, and the like?
chaoticentity August 28th, 2004, 01:55 AM

for long term I would dissasamble the weapon into primary unsprung parts, that is no parts that could seize or are under load. then I would douse the whole thing in motor oil
(synthethic heaviest weight you can get that pours) then wrap in a protective cover that can take weather, probably clingwrap a towel and another layer of cling wrap. Then I
would secure it to the bottom of a large rubbermaid tote and bury it upside down in the ground (so as to leave an air pocket). This however is overkill, I live in the US, so I
would simply remove parts under load and lock it in my gun vault. If the day comes that they want to take my guns away they can, over my cold dead body.
Psychlonic August 28th, 2004, 04:03 AM

I wonder how well a firearm that was vacuum sealed would store. Maybe place a light layer of oil inside, sealed it shut, place the container inside of another container which is
airtight, waterproof, and possibly filled with oil. I have caching manuals that describe some pretty elaborate methods, but if vacuum sealing would work well, that'd definitely
be the way to go.
john_smith August 28th, 2004, 05:54 AM

Found this one on frugals: http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/dir5/gunstor.txt
Skean Dhu August 28th, 2004, 02:33 PM

Don't forget that you don't just need to protect it from water but from oxygen as well. So if you were to bury it in a rubber maid container you'd want to add silica gel or
comparable oxygen absobing agent. Metal can't oxidise without oxygen.
ninja42 August 28th, 2004, 04:45 PM

I thought Silica Gel absorbed water, not oxygen........
Still the best way to go are ABS or Tylene type tubes plugged on both ends. These can be made in every size and quickly buried with an earth auger. Also the Blue plastic
barrels for storing chemicals are good as long as they are virgin.
The only drawback with these is that the metal closing strap may rot, the lid pops off and the contents are exposed.
ninja.
WMD August 28th, 2004, 06:37 PM

AFAIK silica gel is just a water absorber. But there are oxygen absorbers available, too. And if you want to, you can always flood the whole pack with nitrogen or argon and
then seal it. I think the most difficult part is finding a good cache site.
xyz August 29th, 2004, 12:44 AM

Unsure if anyone has mentioned this, but on a couple of survivalism sites I attend, but this is the method I have seen used for storing longarms (anything that's not a handgun
basically).
You cut a length of PVC sewer pipe slightly longer than the OAL of the longest gun you wish to store. You then glue an endcap onto one end and heavily oil all the guns as you
wait for the glue to set (a grease is probably a better choice here, as some oils attack PVC). Then put all the guns into the pipe, along with any ammunition, e.t.c. Oxygen/
moisture absorbers are then added and an endcap is glued onto the second end of the pipe.
The whole thing is buried vertically in a hole dug using a post hole auger (tool for digging fencepost holes). If it is vertical and several feet below the ground it will be less of a
target for metal detectors. You can also scatter scrap metal around the area to "jam" metal detectors.
Mark the location in some way so that you can come back later, dig it up, carefully hacksaw the pipe open at one end, and retreive the guns.
MMIV September 19th, 2004, 12:46 AM

If you strip all the parts down, coat them with oil and place them into one of those vacum bags(the bags where u can suck the air out with a vacum cleaner). Then place them
in the plastic barrel with a moisture asorber, and place the upside down and if possible bury it on a slope so that moisture cannot enter.
(Don't use crap like u=you around here. Its not a chatroom so type full words. - kingspaz)
Gamekeeper September 21st, 2004, 01:14 PM

Why don't use those vacuum foodsavers? Waterproof and airthight storage for a long periode of time and you don't have any oil contamination.
Something like this:

http://www.pleasanthillgrain.com/tilia_1.jpg
NightStalker September 23rd, 2004, 07:05 PM

If you bury the pipe vertically, you'll never be able to remove, as the earth will compact around it and grip it so tightly that you'd need a D9 to pull it out, and Lord help you if
there's anything you can't reach at the bottom 'cause you'll be playing Dig-Dug all night trying to get the whole thing uncovered.
Instead, make a frame that fits inside, with a perforated grate at the bottom, and put all your stuff inside that.
Then, when it comes time to retrieve your stuff, you dig down only as far as the top endcap, cut that offf, then pull up the frame with all your stuff in it, with the oil staying in
the pipe. :)
Oh, and I'd use a silicone oil if I could afford it, as there are soil bacteria that can eat petroleum-based oils, but I've never heard of anything eating silicone.
Isotoxin October 3rd, 2004, 12:40 AM
You really should not use lots of oil or grease at all. Use the PVC with sealed endcaps and use CO2 or argon to purge the air from the container. Be sure to have NO oil on the
ammo and make sure the ammo does not come into contact with the gun.
A set up I like is to have a cheap rifle like an SKS with 3-4 mags and a blister pack of ammo along with a cleaning kit and a few stripped down MREs, some Iodine tabs and
some silver coins and cash.
I really like the idea about a grate at the bottom to pull everything out.
nswsps October 4th, 2004, 12:55 PM

Every four years in my country someone kills someone with a specific type of firearm causing mass hysteria and buybacks / compensated confiscation of firearms. The majority
of assault rifles went into PVC tubing filled with magnetic oil, sealed with silica gel and into post holes in the deck on alot of farming properties.
Kids still go out with metal detectors trying to score an AK. It's a functional method which has kept weaponry servicable for in excess of 25 years that I've seen with my own
eyes, I've heard that people have dug up oil sludge in wooden box stored WWI rifles, et cetera also.
Nice patriotic line about having guns taken away by chaoticentity, I honestly don't think that America's firearms community is big enough or united enough to do anything if
your government were to take your guns away to be honest. Take it from me, our community of firearms nuts are all generally above average income earners, college
graduates and by law all of us can only keep firearms if we're sporting shooters.
We top gold in numerous firearms related sports in the olympics, yet we still get our guns taken off us. The masses are pussy whipped, accepting it is the only way to be able
to organise a contingency plan. :P

NO CO2! That's acidic unless absolutely dry! And it's likely that some moisture will be in there, regardless of the dissicants.
Argon or nitrogen purging is better, with argon being the best as it's MW is higher than oxygen.
Pb1 October 10th, 2004, 12:51 AM

The majority of assault rifles went into PVC tubing filled with magnetic oil
Magnetic oil? Could you elaborate on this?

I wonder how well a firearm that was vacuum sealed would store. Maybe place a light layer of oil inside, sealed it shut, place the container inside of another container which is
airtight, waterproof, and possibly filled with oil. I have caching manuals that describe some pretty elaborate methods, but if vacuum sealing would work well, that'd definitely
be the way to go.
I can answer that, 10 years ago our bans came in. When I saw the memorial on the tellie thought I better make sure I wasn't going to witnes TEOTWAWKI and dig up rust....
I prepped it with an assult of hoppes no9 oil, removed all the springs and put them in a zip lock bag and they got a hammering of oil too. mag springs were removed and also
in the bag. Then I ran it through a multi-vac heat sealer (commercial size) with mags, rifle and springs in bag, and 100 rounds of mil. sealed ammo also. I had to rely on that
seal as it wouldn't fit into the pipe liked I had hoped (mags moved in the shrink phase) so like that it went (ever so gently) into the ground after 2 more runs through the
multi.
dug it up, hit it with the shovel (should have burried something over it so I knew when to slow down) and its all good. What was (as I remember) mint wood is flaked (must
be from the oil) but all the blueing is 100%.
shot alright but the sights were off slightly (probably from the shovel) it got the same treatment this time plus the pipe as I taped it into place for the first run in the multi.

I'm suprised no-one mentioned the wood and oil thing.
As neo-crossbow said, his wood was a bit dodgy. Damned right! Oil, mineral oil, eats wood. It softens it, and makes it useless for a precision weapon. One of the bigest issues
with target rifles of the old school is that if you oil the bolt and it runs back into the wood, your accuracy drops right off, since the bedding rots and softens, leading to a shifting
point of impact.
I've seen photos of AKs that have just been lost or perhaps buried in the desert and are perfectly useable a few years later, and I've also seen photos of AKs where the stock
has rotted right off, and the soldier is holding it with a towel wrapped around the back end instead of a stock!
I would probably split the wood from the metal, as wood doesn't like vacuum packing either, as wood contains moisture! Stash the metal parts, and stash the wood parts.
Keep a barrier material between them.
AZDesertRat July 10th, 2006, 05:54 PM

I hope I am not stepping on any toes since I am fairly new, but has anybody though of using dessicant to absorb the moisture in a gun container. I spent several years
(decades actually) in the glass business building insulated windows. We would fill the hollow metal strips between the glass with desicant to draw out the moisture. I also
learned that when the dessicant gets wet, you can re-new it by heating it in the oven for several hours. It works great for removing moisture from small areas. In fact I fill up
an ordinary sock with it and keep it in the bottom of the gunsafe:rolleyes:

PVC sewer pipe,
I have used this method a number of times, although I don't like to burry my stuff (too much work and the time consumed to extract the contents is just not worth it to me, so
I made a.. I guess you could call it a "Ghillie Case" as I got the idea after reading a article on Ghillie Suit's how to make them. It's great for storing thing one dose not want to
keep in his/her house like Home made silencers, guns, fake documents, incriminating evidence & ammunition. So if you live in the right area (Country or a place with lots of
trees or even very bushy) this will be the way to go since digging will leave disturbed medium for some time, until it grows back it is very easy to pick out. When police are
search out side, how often do you think they look up a tree, and how many trees do you think they are going to search if someone gives them a tip 1, 10, 100, 10,000
100,000 +. Not very often! They will be searching for a buried hide if they bring in metal detectors, so why not hide it in a place they will not look "In a Tree". Where I live
conducting a search of the trees on my property would be a job of enormous proportions, I'd like to see them pull that off. The location of your hide should be mark with the
use of a GPS so you will never forget about it. The Ghillie Case can be hoisted up and down in a fraction of the time it will take you to dig and cut the top off the other hide,
plus it's reusable time and time again.
"Ghillie Case"
Materials needed
1)PVC Pipe-Size of your needed stash
2)Paint-to paint parts of the PVC pipe to help blend in to area of operation
3)Burlap- cut into strings to break up the cylinder shape of the pipe and help camouflage
it
4)Dye (Cloths dye) colors of your area of operation to dye the burlap to help blend it in to the surrounding area.
5)String, to give the burlap a place to be attached to.
6)Dremmal tool, with an assortment of pieces, PVC saw, etc
It's section of PVC pipe with one end cap cemented into place, and the other left un cemented for easy access( The un-cemented end piece should have a generous helping of
grease spread on & around where the cap slides on to help keep out the elements and the use of the salt pack that come in electronics from a store is not a bad idea. I got
creative when I made my 1st one and with the use of a dremmal tool, I etched out a pattern into the pipe, to resemble tree bark.
Then with the use of paints I painted the PVC tube and end cap's be sure to use no pattern, so as to not give off a man made object. Try to match the color of the paint with
the color of the tree you plan to hide it in.
I then took to cutting burlap into strips which I dyed all different colors (Depends on your area of operations) but try to stay as close to the color of vegetation as the tree has;
and attached them Via string wrapped around the PVC pipe (Which were also dyed to match the other colors).
Case is now ready to be put together and taken out to its new home. One will need to touch up his work once it is in the actual hide, to help conceal it better, braches can
provide concealment from below (Left life). The out come of mine was very good, and can barley see it from the ground, and I know it is there, someone who didn't know
would have no idea it was there.
I have not stored any full fire arms in it yet, but do keep a barrel for a .22 which I modified by adding threads to it, and keep various other illegal nick knacks in it that I would
not want anyone to come across.
Tackleberry March 17th, 2008, 07:04 PM

What are some good methods of concealing/storing your firearms for long periods of time without them being discovered by law enforcement or nosy people?
I've been told that filling a pan with vaseline or cosmoline and bringing it to just under the temperature to boil water is one way to prepare a protective coating for the gun you
plan to store. Submerge the gun completely and let it "cook" for a while, then remove it. It should have a complete coat of vaseline/cosmoline on it. Then wrap it in saran
wrap or similar plastic wrapping and simply bury it. If someone is looking for the gun/s with a metal detector, scattering large numbers of nails, bolts, bits of sheet metal, and
other items beneath the soil should throw off all but the most determined of searches.
However, this still poses several problems. First of all, the gun, while protected, is still exposed to the elements and could be damaged somehow. Second, anyone digging
around with a shovel could accidentally come across a new firearm, free of charge. Third, it's quite possible to forget where you buried the darn thing. Fourth, once you do dig
it up again, it's going to be a pain in the ass to clean out all the gunk.
So what are some alternative methods of preserving and concealing your firearms? How would you keep scopes, magazines, ammunition, slings, and other parts/accessories in
good condition where they won't be discovered by anyone looking for them? What about wooden stocks, handles, and the like?
Oxygen and moisture kill weapons. Sonobouy tubes are the best. Removable, screw on lid and 1/4 inch grey poly. We use them for fence posts. Pain to required colour.
Cement the lids into the ground and screw in the body. Run over one, pick it up and screw it back in. The PVC and sonobouy tube idea is ok if you remove all the oxy and
moisture. Buy desiccant bags about the size of a hand held bean bag (dont stint here). Put them in the oven to dry them out. Instructions for this are nearly always on the
bag.!Stand the pipe vertically and place in the weapons or goodies. Get a small candle on a thin wire. (coat hanger is good for this) and place it lower than the lip of the pipe.
The candle will go out when all the oxy is gone, quickly throw in the desiccant and seal the lids. I have stored weapons for many years in this manner. Ammo tins and the
same procedure will protect your ammo as they are sealed when the lid is closed. For absolute positive sealing, get the box that has the removable lid (H60) by rotating a
handle and pushing out four legs that lock the lid into the top of the box. 1/4 inch steel construction and very durable. Some of the donts are:
Dont seal the barrel with plugs at either end as this just causes a sealed environment. Leave it open with grease inside . Just get a grease gun (GP grease) and pump down the
chamber until it comes out the other end.
Dont leave the bolt in.
Dont leave the bolt cocked.
Dont use clingwrap, little pockets of moisture will be trapped in the plastic and cannot get to the dessicant. (Paper breathes, even grease proof) Use grease proof paper, Brown
paper will serve at a pinch.
Dont grease the stock. Linseed oil then grease proof paper.
Dont leave ammo in the magazines.Dissimilar metal corrosion is the big enemy
Dont leave a scope on. Remove it and store it in the house. Pretend its for stargazing if necessary.
Any questions, email me
cheers

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > "lockpicking" a car rem o t e
opening device
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Scientist S e p t e m b e r 2 nd, 2004, 07:03 AM

How does such a car remote o pening device work?
Is it possible to brute force the code for the car?
kthonline S e p t e m b e r 2 3rd, 2004, 01:57 AM

Try this one and see the whole website, http://www.techtrainprod uctions.com/techtrain/store/Specials.htm l. You can do
s o m ething like "Gone in 60 seconds" movie. Have fun.
cyclonite4 October 5th, 2004, 01:48 PM

T h e b e s t t h i n g t o d o w o u l d b e t o o p e n u p t h e r e m ote of yours or a friends car and look for a set of DIP switches. These decide
the code transmitted by the remote. Find a car of sim i l a r m a k e a n d m o d e l a n d t r y d i f f e r e n t c o d e s a n d s e e i f y o u g e t m u c h
luck. :cool:
P.S. You wou ld probably want to write down the original code on the rem ote so you can change it back. :)
steelhead October 20th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 3 : 3 5 P M

I think it is p ossible to have a cpu trigger a substitude for these dip switches, then you just have to bush the botton , and waith
while the cpu works it way toru gh all the combinations, and sooner or laiter the car will ope n

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > (Kryptonite) Cylind rical Locks
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Sparky S e p t e m b e r 1 9th, 2004, 08:29 PM

I was surprised to find that this story h a s n ' t a p p e a r e d o n t h e F o r u m y e t , s o I t h o u g h t I m ight as well call attention to it.
There is quite a buzz going on right now around certain kryptonite bike locks and claim s that they can be opened easily with
the outside of a bic pen. Searching google provides lots of links, including:
T h e g l o b e a n d m ail:
http://www.theglobeandm ail.com /servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040918/KRYPTONITE18/TPNational/Canada
And a bike forum
http://www.cyclingplus.co.uk/forum/top ic.asp?TOPIC_ID=38929 (http://www.cyclingplus.co.uk/forum /topic.asp?

TOPIC_ID=38929)
Now, Kryptonite is tak ing a lot of heat from this but I su ppose the picking technique would work for any cylindrical lock.
No doubt lots of people on the forum here own U locks or other locks with tubular keys that they could try p icking this way. How
about a little R&D, folks? I urge forumites to try it an post their experiences.
BTW , m y e x p e r i e n c e :
I o w n a M a g n u m brand lock, which has a key that is slightly larger in diam eter than the Kryptonite locks. As a result, a stardard
b i c p e n d o e s n o t w o r k ( n o r d o t h e o t h e r p e n s I h a v e o n h a n d ) a n d I ' m away from m y workshop an d facilities so I can't very
well try other plastic tubes.

I own a kryptonite U-lock. I'll have to give it a try myself. ;)
I n t h e m e a n t i m e , s o m eone want to copy all the movies to a folder on the FTP and call it "Kryptonite Lock Defeat Movies"? :)
WMD October 3rd, 2004, 01:18 PM

I've tried it yesterday with a tubular pa d l o c k a n d s o m e p e n s I h a d l y i n g a r o u n d . T h e o n l y o n e t h a t w o r k e d w a s o n e t h a t d i d n 't
have a really hard shell, m ore like a very solid rubber. But I've seen it done with rolled up cardboard, too. Just cut out some
cardboard from a toilet paper roll, roll it up to the desired diame ter and keep it in place with some gaffer tape.

So it does work then? W hat kind of tubular lock was it? No-nam e? ACE? How m any pins, offset, etc.?
WMD October 4th, 2004, 04:52 PM

I just have two 7 pin no-nam e locks. But it worked on both of them . Apart from that, it seem s like most Kryptonites are
vulnerable, but I don't own on e. Not yet. And m y pen of choice at the m o m e n t i s t h e P a p e r M a t e F l e x g r i p U ltra from Bic, very
good picking performance. In the US Krypto has already started a call-back. In Germany this just started appearing on som e
biking boards. I wonder wheth er the price of this particular pen will rise...

W onder how vending machine tubulars would hold up. ;)
Also, be sure that the recall won't reach the vast majority of people, as m ost don't keep track of shit like this unless it appears
on Primetim e Live or som e other, equally tripe, show.
Hobbit Porn October 7th, 2004, 03:51 AM

another site that has the videos for do wnload is here
http://www.snopes.com /crim e/warnings/krypton ite.asp
nbk2000 October 14th , 2 0 0 4 , 1 0 : 5 0 P M

I tried it, using a flexgrip ultra, on m y Kryptonite Plus U-lock, bu t was unable to e ffect an opening.
'C ourse, I also wasn't going to test m y $50 lock to destruction either...
A-BOMB October 15th , 2004, 10:34 AM

I tried this with a couple of pens on a vending m achine outsid the local q uikymart, and after trying a couple of pens it
worked!(cheap thin walled dollar store pen). Though I couldn't get the door open because of the pad lock they had on the
side. I wish this would work with other locks, but most of the lock on vending m a c h i n e s a r o u n d h e r e a n d n o w m edico lock(thats
the ones with the pins on the side instead of the top, right?) because our local com m unity nigger attractor opps college had a
very sucessful locksm ith program a while back and there was a group of niggers that took the course and stole a bunch of
tubular lock picks and started hitting all the local vending m achines, there was a tim e where they were changing the lock on the
m achines almost every other day. And this was going on for m onths, until the JBTs caught three of them stealing all the pepis
out of these machine at the local wallym art.
nbk2000 October 15th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 6 : 3 1 P M

I've got a vending m achine. I'll try this on the lock on there too.
There's a tool called the "bi passel" at:
http://www.m c d o n a l d d a s h . c o m /stealth.htm
t h a t ' s c a p a b l e o f d e f e a t i n g t h e m e d e c o v e n d i n g m a c h i n e locks that use only a single pin set, rather than the dual pin like the
typical medeco door lock.
S o m eone with a drill press and the pro per stock materials could turn these things out by the dozen. ;)
The hockey puck lock s that you usually see on the side of the m achines are the real buggers, but that's do-able too.
H a v i n g s p e n t $ 4 0 t o g e t o n e m a d e o f a b l o c k o f c a s e - h a r d e n e d s o l i d s t e el instea d of the cheaper alum inum b o d y o n e s f o u n d

on every other m a c h i n e I ' v e s e e n , I ' m g e t t i n g o n e o f t h e c h e a p a l u m i n i u m o n e s t o u s e t o m a k e d rilling tem plates for forcible
entry. :)
Next is to buy a puck lock spe cifically designed to be im m u n e t o s u c h a t t a c k m e t h o d s , a n d t h e n t o d e v e l o p u n i q u e d e f e a t s f o r

THAT lock, but cost is yet unknown 'cause the fuckers never answer their phone, only the answering machin e, and R T P B s a y s
n e v e r l e a v e m e s s a g e s on answering m achines, so I don't.
PS:
W hile searching for aluminum alloy specs, I found this site:
http://www.aluminium casting.net/
W h a t d o y o u s e e a t t h e b o t t o m left-hand corner? :D
CypherNinja October 22nd, 2004, 08:20 AM

Just for the sake of p eople here who d on't know about it, Lockpicking101 (http://www.lockpicking101.com ) is an excellant
c o m m unity com p r i s e d o f h o b b y p i c k e r s a n d p r o f e s s i o n a ls. Theres plenty of info there about defeating various locking
m e c h a n i s m s t h r o u g h m a n u a l a n d m echanized picking, as well as im pressioning. Im pressioning is the type of technique being
e m ployed here, BTW .
FYI: They'll ban you if they think your going use the info for less than stellar activities. I like the place alot so please nobody
go and start shit. They'll probably find this post. :(
nbk2000 October 22nd, 2004, 01:11 PM

T h e y ' v e b e e n m e n t i o n e d b e f o re and, as m entioned, got a self-rightous attitude, a lot of which consists of the "I know how to
do [whatever] but I'm not going to tell you because you m ight d o s o m ething 'wrong' with it."
W hatever. :rolleyes:
W ho needs that bullshit.
tom haggen October 29th , 2004, 12:04 AM

I've been picking pin tum bler locks for some tim e now. I have also been picking waffer tum bler locks too. I really haven't tried
to pick any tubular cylindar locks. I always thou ght that they were supposed to be m ore difficult to pick. I can't belie ve you
g u y s a r e h a v i n g s o m uch success with them . : c o n f u s e d :

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Blasting/Explosions sim ulator
for PC
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View Full Version : Blasting/Explosions simulator for PC
nuclearattack October 2nd, 2004, 11:45 AM

I t h o u g h t a l o t a b o u t a b l a s t i n g / e x p l o s i o n s s i m ulator fo r PC, it could be usefull or simply interesting for detonations tests and
sim ilar jobs.
I'm not very expert in com puter programm ing but i know some friends that can help m e in this project.
T o d o t h i s i n e e d t o k n o w s o m e points:
1 . W h a t k i n d o f f e a t u r e s d o y o u want? W hat, the sim ulator, shou ld be able to calculate?

In m y opinion i'm interested in a graphic interface able to represent the explosion in real tim e . T h e s i m ulator should
represents the shockwave propagation, the therm al gradient (i mean the t e m p e r a t u r e o f t h e e x p l o s i o n a n d o f t h e a i r i n t h e
nearby), and also the pressure gradient. Of course the simulation should be in agreement with the physics's laws.
T h e s i m ulator should have a series of tables about the various kind of explosives with all their cha racteristics like: VOD,
specific energy released, pressure and bla bla bla...
I think the tables cou ld be usefull for the user.
T h e s i m ulator should calculate all of this features also in different kind of materials like water (for underwater detonation
tests), steel, concrete and it could be usefull to a d d a v a r i a b l e p a r a m eter where the user can input a specific density of another
kind of m ate rial.
I want to add also som e "security features", for exam ple the m inimum d istance to avoid the drums rupture with a certain kind
of explosive and quantity specified by the user.
It should be in Italian, English and German (but only with the help of my friend Myrol!).
2 . I n e e d y o u r suggestions/help! I need all the formulas involved in the sim ulation, i need all your knowledge about the theory
of detonation and blasting agents.
This is a big project that can be an opportunity to work everybod y together, think about th e k n o w l e d g e ! W e can learn a lot
a b o u t t h e d e tonation theory following this project and sharing our knowle dge and capabilities!
This is the best forum on this kind of topic and this project can become a real pride reason! The only forum t h a t h a s a
sim ulator!
I t h i n k t h e s i m u l a t o r s h o u l d b e f r e e a n d s h a r e d b y p 2 p a n d i w a n t t o a d d t h e n i c k n a m e s o f a l l t h e m e m bers that contributes

on this project.
W ell...what d o y o u t h i n k ? I t ' s a g o o d i d e a ?
All contribute s are wellcome!
p.s. How is m y english? I'm not sure if m y sentences are well do ne but since i love english i want to write as better as i can.
Ropik October 2nd, 2004, 02:23 PM

I would want sim ulator with listed factors for m aterials(few types of steels, wood, concrete, earth...) and with ability to
determ ine best charge for some object (note that I'm m ore interested in dem olitions than in pure science of explosion), with
a b i l i t y t o m a k e s l o w m o v i e o f t h e d e t o n a t i o n ( p r o b a b l e t y p e o f d a m a g e t o t h e o b ject, spalling etc.). Safety features are very
good idea IMHO.
I think that this is bright idea. If you will need som e theory of special charges and sim ilar topics, I'll try to help you if you
contact m e o n DanGu n@seznam.cz. Good luck!
nuclearattack October 2nd, 2004, 03:09 PM

W ell Ropik i have to m ake a lot of search but i'll try to do my best.
Your feature is interesting but i think that is difficult to apply, ho wever there should be som e e m piricist data to take as a point
of reference.
I h a v e s o m e o f t h i s d a t a a n d s o m e f o r m u l a s f o r d e m olition charges so i have som ething to start.
W ell...i'm going to e-m ail to you for some help on special charges.
Hobbit Porn October 3rd, 2004, 12:28 AM

Sim ulators already exist
I know they are used in the m ining sector...ans I think FEMA released on e a few years ago, called AR CHIE or som ething, can't
quite rem e m b e r n o w . . b u t h o p e f u l y t h i s c a n h e l p j o g s o m e o n e s m e m ory
H.Porn
mrcfitzgerald October 3rd, 2004, 02:03 AM

T h e b e s t f o r m ula that I can think of is sim ply BlastR=(Y/1000/2000)^0.33*.9*10 00, where Y=Yeild is in pounds and Blast
radius is in m eters. (I had to adjust a few values, as the original equation, y^0.33*.71 wa s m eant for nuclear explo s i o n s , a n d
y wa s origina lly equal to kilotons.) Anyway, having impu t a few values, th e m odel appears correct. For exam ple: a d etonation
of 250lbs TnT at proper height will produce dam a g e t o n o r m a l s i n g l e - f a m ily hom es to a radius of 46 meters, or 150 feet. This
appears to be in agreement with The Los Alamos Primer which also states that a standard 500lb gp bomb containing 250lbs of
T n T d a m a g e s t o a r a d i u s o f 1 5 0 f t . F u r t h e r m ore, in orde r to obta in differing radi for differing explosive compounds, it seems
that im puting the equivalent in TNT wo rks. (So 4000lbs of Anfo is equivalent to ~2000lbs of TNT.)
Finally, it is intereting to note that the .9 constant is variable depending on the dam age. So, if you wished to find how far ou t
t h e r a d i u s e x t e n d s f o r demolition of concrete structures, the constant would be around .25-.3. If you wondered how far away
t h e e x p l o s i o n m a y b r e a k w i n d ows, the constant is around 2.2-2.55.
W hen calculating ever-so-usefull things such as crater radius, a slightly d ifferent m odel needs to be used. For surface bursts,
the crater radius is equal to 60*(Y/1000/2000)^0.3 and crater depth is roughly equal too 30*(Y/1000/2000)^0.3. W h e r e
Y=pounds and the result is in feet (not m eters). So, if 1 Ton of TNT was detonated at surface-level, the resulting crater should
be roughly 15 feet in diam e t e r a n d a m e t e r d e e p - s e e m s c l o s e e n o u g h , c o u l d b e a t a d l a r g e r t h o u g h .
It is more difficult to calculate craters for underground d etonations, but a detonation will crush rock to a distance of 50*(Y/
1000/2000)^0.33 where Y= pounds and the result is in meters. Furtherm ore, at proper bu r i a l d e p t h , t h i s e q u a t i o n m o d e l s t h e
size of the crater form e d . F o r e x a m ple , 4000lbs of Anfo detonated at proper depth carves out a crater 33 feet in diameter. To
determ ine th e proper depth for any given detonation the equation is 30*(Y/1000/2000)^.33 where the answer is in meters. So
the proper burial depth for one ton of TNT is 3 m eters or 10 feet.
To determine the radius of da mage ca used by underground shock, the e quation appears to be 70*(Y/1000/2000)^0.33. So a
t o n o f T N T w o u l d c a u s e s e v e r e g r o u n d s h o c k d a m age to a radius of 7.2 m eters, or 23.5 feet.
I h a v e n o t f o u n d t o m uch data on subsurface water bursts, I will see if I can find a model though.
Skean Dhu October 3rd, 2004, 10:04 AM

a word of caution:
I would highly suggest you either (a: get your rear in gear and get this project out when you say it will, be or (b: sto p
conversation and delete your post about this.
because the last person who decided to help th e forum by m aking some great new fancy product got banned when they never
delivered. now if you can get it done and make it work how you want it to m ore power to you, just don't say you'll do it and
t h e n t a k e y e a r s t o f i n i s h i t a s s o m e o n e m a y t a ke this as a sign of the project dying.
ps what language will this be program e d i n ?
Real_Wrestler October 4th, 2004, 12:28 AM

I saw this post and i for one think it would be h elp in se veral ways. I was wondering if you thought at all about using Parts from
the program "Maya".
This is the program that was used ito m a k e t h e m ovies Toy Story, and Ice Age. I have Maya 6.0 unlim ited and within this
program it already has the cappability to produce realistic explosion situations, and the amazing ability to incorporate real-
world physics, and different material types. However i don't know if it wou ld be able to accom plish everything wanted, I do know
however that Enviroments you create in maya can be exported to other p rograms, possibly the one you want to m a k e ? W a s
wondering if you had thought about using maya at all?
nuclearattack October 4th, 2004, 12:02 PM

To MRCfitzgerald:
thanks very m uch for your help, i copied your formulas in a note book where i'm m aking the project. Continue with your
rese arch if you find som e new concepts i'll take care of it!
T o S k e a n D h u:
i'm not agree with this "easy banning tactic", i really don't understand why banning a mem ber for a good id e a . T h e r e i s n o
r e a s o n t o b a n a m e m ber for this because if i had a stupid idea it's sufficient to close the thread.
I have a project in m y mind that isn't im possible to do and according to the roguesci statement (spreading knowledge for free)
it sh ould be interesting and usefull to everybody!
If th is project will stop it isn't a tragedy! There are threa d s p e a k i n g a b o u t " g u i d e d m issile", "VX agent" and other hard subjects
that probably will never developed by someone in his hom e!
T h e s c i e n c e i s a n a d v e n t u r e , s o m e t i m e s y o u r e a c h g o o d r e s u l t s , s o m e t i m e s y o u m ake a hole in the water!
Of course this doesn't m ean that you can start a lot of crazy threads regarding im possible projects! Howeve r i think that this is
a good project but if a moderator or Megalomania think s that this is a stupid useless project he can close the thread without
a n y p r o b l e m . T h e r e i s n o r e a s o n t o b a n m e.
To real wrestler:
i don't know Maya because i u se 3DS MAX 6 but this program s are not very able to do sim ulations. My sim u l a t o r s h o u l d b e
m ore sim p l e a n d s c h e m atic, FX effects and beautifull graphic is not need ed and complicates the sim ulator m a k i n g . T h i n k t o
this simulato r like a kind of CAD! The graphic interface should only represent the shockwave with a series o f rings with a scale
to read the values an d s o o n f o r t h e t e m p e r a t u r e a n d p ressure.
I'm d e s i g n i n g o n p a p er the m ain window and when it will be com pleted i'll post a sm all picture of it to m ake understand how it
will be.
nswsps October 4th, 2004, 12:48 PM

Not really on topic, but there was a sim ulation program (java applet) that dealt with nuclear explosions of variable yields as
well as m ultiple other comm o n u s e d m a s s e x t e r m ination weaponry. Wish I still had the URL, if anyone out there has it, feel
free to post it, I'm su re we'd all have plenty of fun nuking our suburbs.

T h e o n e p e r s o n w h o c l a i m e d t o h a v e m a d e V X , w a s a l s o b a n n e d f o r b e i n g an idiot (real) for having an "accident" (real or
im agined) with it and asking us for help in covering it up.
If you say you're going to do som ething, I want progress reports and m easurable progress, not va g u e a l l u s i o n s t o " s o o n " .
Hobbit Porn October 5th, 2004, 03:35 AM

From the website : http://hazm at.dot.gov/risk_tools.htm
T h e A u t o m a t e d R e s o u r c e f o r C h e m ical Hazard Incident Evaluation (or ARC HIE) was develo ped jointly by the Department of
Transportation, the Federal Emergency Manage ment Agency, and the Environmen tal Protection Agency in 1989. It allows the
quick prediction of ha zard zon es surrounding the release of flam m a b l e , e x p l o s i v e , o r t o x i c m a t e r i a l s . T h e O f f i c e o f H a z a r d o u s
Materials Safety is considering updating ARCHIE to provide a graphical user interface for use in the MS W indows environment
a n d t o m a k e it more user friendly by including a chemical data base.
Not sure if th is is the sort of thing you meant, but I can rem e m b e r s o m e o n e ( n o t o n t h i s b o a r d ) u s i n g i t t o b a c k u p a
conspiracy th eory for the oklahom a b o m bing because this program predicts a different outcome to what happened.

...............
H.Porn
Self-signing your post with your username is not permitted here. Correct your error.
Though self-signing of PGP keys is always encouraged. :)
SweNMFan October 10th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 5 : 5 8 P M

I have been searching for a simulator for a while and only found 2 that looks intresting.. LS-Dyna(http://www.lstc.com /
m aster.htm) and Autodyn(http://www.autodyn.com/)..
I found LS-Dyna on e donkey but the learning curve is way to ste ep.. well I will have to con tinue blow up things for real then ;)
SweNMFan October 12th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 4 : 3 6 P M

Found this page by accident..
http://patriot.net/~tvalesky/752/752.htm l
T o m Valesky's C S-752 Project page
For this class, I studied the problem of simulating explosions in realtime. This pa ge conta ins the results of that study.
The paper
The source code for the project
The source to a O p e n G L e x p l o s i o n s i m ulator :D
nuclearattack October 13th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 6 : 1 9 P M

I have contacted two friends o f mine (they are able to program with c++ and delp hi) and they can help m e in my project, this
sunday i will have a m eeting with them and i will show to them the details. Good! If everything goe s on i will have a alpha
version in m y hands in a few weeks!
To SweNMfan:
i'm downloading LS-Dyna, i don't know this program but it should be usefull, about the learning curve i found som e tutorials
a n d m a n u a l s o n e m u le...maybe they could explain better this program .
ProdigyChild Novem ber 3rd, 2004, 07:23 PM

My wishes:
- open source rather than "this forum's private program"

- program input by sim ple tex t file description
- program output in a m a c h i n e r e a d a b l e f o r m a t
- not only a program but a library for such prob lem s
- PO SIX-com pliance, if not a Unix program at all
- written in C++ of course ;)
- UI written in Java or Qt
- calculating shaped charges, FAEs,....
Of course you might provide a user interface and a visualization tool, but this should DEFINITELY n ot be the first step. The real
work is the calculation and this has to be done fast, stable and correct (a s far as we know the physics).
Perhaps I wo uld offer m y help in this area, but don't like to promise this now. I've done a few num eric sim u l a t i o n s s o f a r a n d I
know that this is a challenging task! Overflow, Underflow, Precision problems, etc.....
Start at sm all scale! Then grow.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > milling machine question
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View Full Version : milling machine question
sungod October 10th, 2004, 11:34 AM

I have been looking at the home workshop series of books and they claim that a milling machine is pretty important. I am assuming that you dont need a machine that
vacuums the floor, does the dishes, and smokes a cigarette afterwards.
The one thing the books do not mention is the actual specifications that the machine needs (its capabilities I guess).
Can somebody WHO KNOWS please tell me the actuall technical stuff I should be looking for in one of these machines? There are several extremely well priced (i am not made
of money unfortunately) combination vertical mill/drill presses and I was wondering if these would do the job. Here are some links to show these units so you know what I
mean.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=58254&item=3844167445&rd=1
http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Main/mini-mill.htm
nbk2000 October 11th, 2004, 12:24 PM

If you're making gun parts at home, then look at the specs on the blueprints (I'm assuming you're using these) and it'll give the tolerances there.
Use a machine that has a max of half of the lowest required tolerance.
IE: If the tolerance for the most precise part is .002", then you need a tool with a max run-out tolerance of .001"
sungod October 13th, 2004, 12:26 AM

thank you
could you please advise me as to wether mods/admins have received my communications regarding the difficulties i am having using the forums and just in case you havent
received them this will probably be of onterest to you.
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/3b.htm
Magas October 19th, 2004, 12:29 PM

Hi Sungod
The Milling machines u are looking at do not have the tolerances to produce fine gun parts they are typically for rough model buiders. My mill is a nc mill but then again it also
cost $32K. However having said that finer tolerances are possible on the mills u are looking at as u can fit both of these with a vernier on the x & y axis for about $300 in kit
form. They are quite capable to mill dovetails and other components if you take the time. You might also like to consider the type of steel u wish to mill as this influences the
type of tooling u need and this is quite expensive. So u will have to factor this also in your purchase costs :cool:
nbk2000 October 19th, 2004, 01:29 PM

The letter U is NOT a substitute for the word YOU.
Correct your grammatical error or be erased as per the Rules.
tom haggen October 19th, 2004, 04:09 PM

Running a vertical mill is not something you can just do automatically. You really should take a basic manufacturing class sungod, and buy a machinists handbook. There are
many formulas you need to know for maching. (4*cutting speed) / diameter. Not to mention formulas for cnc maching some of which I have forgotten.
meselfs October 19th, 2004, 08:07 PM

Actually, you can. I've never taken such a course, yet nowadays I mill all the time, and do it well. I rarely use a formula, those are mostly for high-production stuff.
Just try to remember that if the tool is chattering or squealing, something is wrong :D.
A book can help alot, though.
Do not find yourself fascinated by "mill/drill" machines; that's just a name meant to sell more. I find that machines designated that way just so happen to be kinda low
quality...
The real fact is that any vertical mill will function as a drill press as well ;->
Make sure your machine has a GOOD vise. The vise quality is crucial. Made in china vises will work fine, but make sure it's a good one. Look for those that have "positive
holddown" or "positive lockdown". Such vises have an internal wedge which causes much of the holding force to be used to secure the jaw downward.
Finally, I recommend you get a lathe too. Lathe + Mill = basic shop.
Whatever you pick, happy trails with it. You won't regret it :D.
sungod October 23rd, 2004, 01:44 AM

Thank you for all your responses. You have been extremely helpful. At the moment I am leaning towards getting a decent lathe, teaching myself how it all works and then I
have heard you can get kits for lathes that allow you to do the rudimentary milling that I would require.
If anyone knows about/or has done milling work with a lathe can they please let me know as I would dearly like to pick your brains.
JV44 November 2nd, 2004, 03:56 AM

If you are looking for a small, high-quality manual milling machine for most homeshop work one can think of, I can only recommend a used Deckel FP1. They are very rigid for
their size and allow some very accurate work, if they have not been abused.
Magas November 2nd, 2004, 10:22 AM

Sorry NBK
Hi Sungod
The Milling machines you are looking at do not have the tolerances to produce fine gun parts they are typically for rough model buiders. My mill is a nc mill but then again it
also cost $32K. However having said that finer tolerances are possible on the mills you are looking at as you can fit both of these with a vernier on the x & y axis for about
$300 in kit form. They are quite capable to mill dovetails and other components if you take the time. You might also like to consider the type of steel you wish to mill as this
influences the type of tooling you need and this is quite expensive. So you will have to factor this also in your purchase costs
sungod May 28th, 2006, 11:15 PM

Thanks for your response Magas. I haven't had internet access for a fair while and so I apologise if I appeared to just drop this thread. Life's been a little 'confused' lately(to be
polite).
Skean Dhu May 29th, 2006, 12:45 AM
If you're up to a challenge, you could try your hand at building lathe/milling machines. There is a book series printed by lindsay books written by David Gingery(http://
www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/series/index.html) that can be bought which detail the construction of the machines.
I have the series, however they are unavailable to me at this time, and when I will have access to them again, I won't have the means to upload them(ain't life a bitch).
I'm sure there are pdf copies of them floating around the web somewhere(perhaps our FTP? ). Or if you can't find them online and can't wait theres always the option of
buying them.
edit:
I found a torrent, http://thepiratebay.org/search.php?q=gingery this should contain all of the books on the previous link I posted.
Gingery milling machine rapid share curtosy of NBK:

http://rapidshare.de/files/13347437/_Gingery_-_4._The_Milling_Machine__1982__OCR_7.0-2.6_LotB.pdf.html
stupid939 August 18th, 2006, 08:33 PM

Even if you do find a decent-priced mill, as with most machines, you will probably spend more on the accessories than you will on the mill.
I have Sherline equipment (mill and lathe), and I have spent about $6,000 on the machines and accessories. If you have a lathe, you could probably cut that in half, and
maybe less if you get imported accessories and tools for your mill. If you do this, you have to challenge yourself to get the accessories to be adaptable to your milling machine.
I love my Sherline machines, and if you take your time, you can get your parts within a tolerance of less than 0.001. With these machines, you can also upgrade to DRO
(Digital Read Out) packages or CNC packages. Sherline offers just about every accessory that you would need, and if you break/lose one of the pieces to you machine, you
can get any replacement part from them.
Heres the link
sherline.com
-copy and paste-
blackberrygoose April 9th, 2007, 05:28 AM

A Sherline machine may not be what you are looking for, especially if your are on a budget, from what I can see of their website they only sell small hobby type lathes and
vertical milling machines. For gunsmithing work this may not be the best option especially if you want to work on some of Bill's bigger jobs (.50BMG rifle, Auto shotgun, M83
9mm, home conversion 9mm AR-15).
Try a lathe with a maximum length between centres of 36" (about 1000mm) + (or the largest diameter barrel you wish to accomadate) with a minimum swing over of about
24" or about 600mm. As for power go for anything above 5.75 hp, in the size you are looking for. If all you want to use it for is "sub guns" then try a Myford ML7 or Super 7
(an old engineer reckons this is o.k.), but then even Bill Holmes writes that a Taiwanese import would suffice.
As for vertical machining tools, same as above, look for a machine tool that has a minimum traverse travel of 6"+ or about 145mm and a longditudinal travel of 16" or about
400mm, with a minimum power rating of 1 kw or 1.34hp
Sure these might sound like hobby type machines but this is the minimum that I would recomend. Like NBK said,
"Use a machine that has a max of half of the lowest required tolerance.
IE: If the tolerance for the most precise part is .002", then you need a tool with a max run-out tolerance of .001" "
If it is a gunsmiths machine that you desire, and you are broke or have kids, then there are only a few options left.
Option 1: Use the Gingery method of lathe and mill construction, Dave claimed that he could get .001" accuracy from his lathe. This method would be dilatory and fraught with
peril.
Option 2: Commandeer a lathe/vertical machine tool. Nothing is as cheap as something that has already been paid for (paraphrased from "He died with a falafel in his hand").
While your at it comandeer two, of each. Of course being caught and paying the penalty may leave you wondering why you didnt go to the trouble of making one.
Another part to this option (comandeer) would be to befriend an existing lathe/machine tool owner and get the tutorial that goes with a bribe (box/slab/unit of their favorite
beer/whiskey/rum/softdrink).
Option 3: Thouroghly scour: auctions, sale yards, garage/carboot/white elephant sales, clearance sales (highly lucrative), tool distributors, machine tool distributors, importers,
tips, rubbish dumps, industrial sites, empty wharehouses, neighbors sheds, engineering firms/workshops/jobsites, and "take what you can, give nothing back!". and soon you
shall find yourself the proud owner of monstrous piles of crap.
If you get a job as an engineer, or work somewhere you can get your hands on some lathe/mill time you may not need to buy one at all, as you may be able to work on a
piece of work one at a time, of course you would need to make sure the work did not arouse suspicion (see Gerad Metral's D.I.Y. 9mm Submachine gun).
209 April 10th, 2007, 08:24 PM

If you are making pieces on a mill or lathe DON'T make the gingery machines. They are just no good for super exact tolerances that are standard in gunsmithing.
Go to Princess Auto or something similar and pick up a decent quality mill and lathe (and dish out that months wages :rolleyes: ) Its much better knowing you have a quality
piece of machinery that will turn out good parts ever time rather than a half ass attempt at casting your own lathe and mill.
Here is a ok design for a mill if you want to make your own anyway - http://www.gizmology.net/vertmill.htm
nbk2000 April 11th, 2007, 03:59 AM

If a person was interested in beginning small scale production of a particular part, proper investment is required.
http://www.cinmac.com/Used/index.htm
Cincinatti Milacron machines, used.
Prepare to part with the K's, but well worth it, as the money you invest into quality machines and tooling translates into faster production with less downtime due to production
errors and breakage.
hydra April 11th, 2007, 03:45 PM

Sungod,
Mill-Drills: If you have no other machine, and can afford no other, these machines will do a helluva lot of work for very little money.
However, be aware that they are typically JUNK; in terms of being a 'precision' machine tool. I have an "R-12" model....fairly typical, about a grand new, 2hp. The table was
not cut/ground square between X and Y !!
Hopefully you already know enough about machining to understand how serious a problem that is.
And in a practical sense, there is nothing easy that's going to fix it.
Probably it's just a fluke...but it is very typical of the kinds of flaws in these chinese junk machine tools. I've seen other mill-drills where the column wasn't square to the table-
surface. Again, this is something which would be VERY difficult for someone who doesn't already have a full shop to correct.
Also, the leadscrew nuts are terrible; and wear very quickly. You can indeed still make precision parts with loose leadscrews, but you have to know what you're doing.
Another issue that nobody mentioned yet is shop-space. If you have the space, then in my opinion you are FAR better off getting old, used, full-size, US machine tools. They
will be far more accurate, smooth, and stable over time....and if you're sharp, you can find them for not much more money than chinese-junk machines like the mill-drill.
Nevertheless, if you don't have the space or money, then in regards to the mill-drill, Sherline, small lathe, etc.....GO FOR IT ! You will NOT regret it; because ANY machine tool
is far far better than no machine tool at all !
If you decide it's something you're going to stick with, then you can sink more money into better machines later. In the meantime, you'll have a machine, and you'll be
learning and making useful parts. After you get a 'real' mill, you can always just use the mill-drill as a 'precision drill press'.
Tooling: tooling is like the 'software' for the machine. You spend a few hundred bucks on a PC...and then spend thousands on software over the next decade...lol... That's
what it'll be like with tooling (i.e., chucks, cutters, work-holding and fixturing, measuring instruments, etc. etc).
Best of luck
lemons April 12th, 2007, 05:03 AM

If you're strapped for cash but want something with tighter tolerances than the Gingery machines, consider building a MultiMachine: http://opensourcemachine.org/mm2html2/
How_to_build_a_multimachine.html
6The6Beast6 April 13th, 2007, 03:56 PM

Building your own milling machine can be an interesting learning experience, or a severely laborious task depending on the person, but there are still options open to the "poor
man" of the improvised weapons community. Thousands of universities exist in the united states that have on-campus milling machines that are available for student use. This
introduces various possibilities with obvious disadvantages depending on the how much the faculty and staff know about what you are doing, but there are various ways to
avoid this as long as you are not blatantly obvious about what you are doing.

I'm begining to think this topic is bipolar. On the one hand we are talking about cheap machine tools and how to knock out a barrel and a few parts, and on the other we are
talking about micron accuracy CNC tools and production runs.
As ever, if you just want a gun, you are better off keeping that grand and buying a gun on the black market. True, it's a sellers market in the UK, but you could probably get
three pistols for 1k. If you have to kit out the whole 'hood, then if you are making pistols, you will be fine with a cheap mill and lathe combo. Tolerances that are high won't
be needed, since you will be at close quarters.
If your plan is to arm your underground bunker's army of super soliders, then yes, those battle rifles would be better turned out on a full CNC system, if only because the parts
will likely be interchangable. However, for most people, unless they are becoming a gunsmith who wants to make lots of custom gear, and even then, are going to be doing
runs of stuff rather than neat one-off jobs, it is overkill. The only parts that really need insane accuracy are the barrels, the rest can be hand finished and fitted.
If you can't freely buy barrels, then unless you can recoup your investment before going to jail for a long time, be careful.
reddog_2711 April 23rd, 2007, 01:08 AM

A friend of mine recently bought a mill/drill machine from Harbor Freight for not too much cash. I work in a machine shop and have 25 CNC mills at my disposal, so I would
think that something from Harbor Freight would be junk, but he claims that it was far better than he thought it would be considering the price.
I wouldn't do anything with a tighter tolerance of .003 on it, and I'd think that you'd have to re-set it up for every cut and not "trust" the machine at all, but with a little
patience, he's getting his moneys worth from it.
I think I'll stick with my CNC's ;-)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Im provise d m e t a l s h o p
equipment. the $10 welder
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View Full Version : Improvised metal shop equipment. the $10 welder
johnn 99 October 10th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 5 : 0 6 P M

Hello. I see a lot of p osts along the lines of "I could rule the world if only I could build a b etter zipgun."
So I thought I Might post som e low cost, no cost ways to build or m o d i f y s h o p e q u i p m e n t f r o m a r o u n d t h e h o u s e s u p p l i e s .
First up is a combination stick welder a nd carbo n arc torch. The stick weld er will allow you to weld steel up to about 1 /4" with
m u l t i p l e p a s s e s , u s i n g t h e s m all 5/32 rods. I recomm end (EZ strike) they are a bit m ore expensive but are easier to work with.
The really nice feature however is the carbon arc torch. W hich is a sort of poor m ans oxy/fuel torch without the expe n s e o f
tanks. With it you can fusion weld a va riety of metals including iron/steel, brass, copper,and alum inium. Either with or withou t a
filler rod. Or braze an d siver solder disimilar m etals together.
Parts list.
1 electric space heater preferably an old one without a fan. (everyone has one of these buried in the closet don't they?) if not I
found 7 of them at the second hand store yesterday not one of which cost over $5.
1 sm all extension cord.
2 pieces of wooden rod 1/2" Dia. x 8" long (not critical).
4 sm all hose clam ps.
2 alligator clips.
1 roll of electrical tape
a few screws etc.
Construction.
First lets get the electronic portion out of the way, then we will more on to building the electrode holders. Ready? set the spa ce
heater in front of you, find the cord and halfway between the body of the heater and the plug cut one of the 2 wires that make
up the cord. Now take your cheap extensin cord and cut of both ends leaving you with a piece of duplex wire. Now ta k e b o t h
wires from THE SAME END of the extension cord and splice one each to either end of the heatercord wire that you already cut,
so that you have lengthened one leg of the circuit with the extension cord. There you go, a resistance welder power supply and
l e a d cables. Now all thats left to do is to build the electrode hold ers. To start take the 2 pieces of wooden rod and p ut a
s e p e r a t e h o s e c l a m p a r o u n d t h e m iddle of each rod with the extra metal tab sticking out about 3/4" on each. Now flatten the
curl out of the tabs. punch or drill one of the slots in the m iddle of each of the 2 tabs to accept a small bolt and wing nut. now
lay the rods parallel to each other with the tabs overlapping and the hole s a l i gned a nd bo l t t hem both toge ther with the wing
nut and bolt such that it m akes an H with the long legs being the wooden rods and the m etal tabs form ing the crossbar and
able to pivot on the bolt. Next insert one of the free ends of your extension cord into one of the alligator clip connector ends
a n d s m a s h i t f l a t , t h e n p u n c h a s m all hole thro ugh both the conector and the wire now take another hose clamps and unscrew
it until it com es apart and open it out a bit and screw through one of the slots of the hose clam p AND the hole throuth the
alligator clip into the endgrain of one of your wooden rods with a short drywall screw or something sim ilar. T hen put the tab of
t h e h o s e c l a m p back into the screw m e c h a n i s m and tighten until you have about a 1/4 inch circle. do the sam e to the other
wooden rod. Tape the insulated portion of each leg of the extension cord down th e l e n g t h o f e a c h w o o d e n r o d a n d y o u a r e
done. ( Sorry, hard to explain but really easy to do.)
To use as a stick welder, unscrew the wing nut to seperate the rods, clam p one via the alligator clip to the piece of metal you
wish to weld.(doesn't matter which as this is an AC system) and your welding electode in the other alligator, clip plug in the
heater and weld. (SEE W ARNINGS AT THE END).
To use as a carbon arc torch you will need carbon electrodes. these can be purchased a a welding supply store. The last tim e I
b o u g h t s o m e I p a i d a b o t $ 5 f o r a b o x o f a d o z e n o r s o . W hich will last you for ages. 1/4" is best b ut thicke r rods ca n b e u s e d
if yo u sharpen them like a pencil to a fine point. Or for the really frugal I understand that you can strip the rod out of a C or D
battery.
R e a s s e m ble the handle into the H configuration and insert one carbon rod into each of the hose clam p s o n t h e e n d o f t h e
wooden rods. tighten clamps to hold the electrodes securely such that the points on the electrodes just touch and form a V with
t h e h a n d l e s p a r a l l e l . P l u g i n t h e h e a t e r a n d s q u e e z e t h e h a n d l e s g e n t l y t o g e t h e r b e l o w t h e pivot to separate the electrodes
drawing an arc between the points.(don't separate them m ore than about 1/4 inch and you should have a stable arc with a very
hot corona around it that is used as a point heat source to weld with.
W ARNING!!! In both configurations this is basically a short circuit in a 120 V system if you touch both electrodes or th e work
piece at any time with the heater plugged in it will shunt 120V into you!
W ARNING!!! be sure to use at least a #10 shad ed lens in your welding helm et and cover a ll exposed skin when dealing with
these proced ures. The arc rays will burn exposed skin and do really nasty short and long term dam age to your eyes if you
don't take proper precautions!
An questions or com ments? If there is any interest in this sort of thing I will continue to put them up in this thread.
Ropik October 10th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 5 : 5 0 P M

IF this works without shorting the whole electrical system of the house, then it is great. I a m not sure about it, but I think that
this is going to do serious damage to your electric network. Did you tried this?
Anyway, good idea, cheap as hell. I would be very interested in this "no cost metal worksh op" if som ebody would try
procedures like this h im self and report. Otherwise, I personally will not take the risk of shorting out my home, cremate myself
et cetera.
Zerstoren Sie October 10th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 6 : 1 3 P M

T h e s p a c e h e a t e r n e e d s t o b e in series to current limit. If this is done wiring in parallel, this will short out the electrical system
in your house. As long as thats done correctly, the home-m ade arc welder should work ok.
Actually many high current devices will work for this. For instance, 10 - 10 0 watt light bulbs can be ran in series. In that case, if
you short out one bulb, and m ake the series circuit have 9 bulbs in it, it would lim it the welder to 9 00 watts. U sing that
technique, one can adjust for the curre nt level they desire.
johnn 99 October 10th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 6 : 1 3 P M

Y e s , R o p i c . I h a v e b u ilt and tested this, I also have a com ercially produced version that works exactly the same way. Also I
should note that any properly wired house ciruit should trip the breaker o r f u s e b e f o r e d o i n g a n y d a m age to the wiring in any
case.

There was a thread a while back about rewindin g the secondary on microwave ove n transform ers to produce sm all arc welders.
There's also info on the web about welders consisting of a car battery constantly charged by a large autom otive alternator
belted to a lawnm ower engine. A large battery charger could probably be substituted for the engine/alternator, although it
wouldn't be truly portable then.
ProdigyChild Novem ber 14th, 2004, 11:07 AM

Put two 500u F electrolytic caps in series to become bipolar and use this 300uF cap as resistor (Z=1 0 O h m s r o u g h l y ) . S h o u l d b e
even less work, less power dissipation but 10A m a x i m u m current, too ;)
W ill be m ore than $10, however....
Haven't tried, yet, but will do somethin g sim ilar, soon.
Jacks Complete Novem ber 15th, 2004, 01:10 PM

It m ight well have 10,000 Am ps output for the few microseconds it has any voltage across it...
Usin g caps as a welder isn't going to do m ore than a tiny spot weld.
Personally, a l t h o u g h t h e i d e a o f m a k i n g a s i m ple arc welder is a good one, I don't see wh y anyone would bother - a brand new
one will only set you back 50 , including the gloves and g o g g l e s / m a s k , a n d a f e w r o d s . T h e s h o p - b o u g h t o n e r u n s o n a b o u t 5
volts, so is far less likely to pass large currents through your body and kill you ho rrifically. This alone is worth 50!
There are a few other things that can be hom e-made, such as an electric arc furnace, which m ostly uses an arc welder for the
power supply. You could perhaps use this technique to m a k e o n e o f t h o s e .
Actually, thinking abo ut it, hom e m a d e g e a r , a n d a c o l l e ction of plans and designs, would be a very strong contende r for a
separate section, rather than going in Tools and Techniques. I have several, lifted from the likes of Scientific America, for stuff
from the sim ple (a displacem ent can) to the co mplex (laser systems, a gravity detector sensitive enough to see the tides in
the ocean from 2000 miles, etc.)
---For fucks sake, do NOT EVER try welding with o u t g l o v e s a n d l o n g s l e e v e s a n d a f u l l f a c e m ask. If you are only do ing a few
s m a ll welds, you can get away with just welding goggles, but you still m ig ht get sunburned . Yes, you can weld by lining it all up
and then looking awa y, but your welds won't be as good, and you just m ight wreck your eyesight. Cataracts anyone?---
Edit:
Marvin, you are correct - m y m i s t a k e . Y e s , u s i n g the caps instea d of a re sistor wo uld be far better from a power efficiency point
of view!
Marvin Novem ber 15th, 2004, 01:22 PM

H e i s n t s u g g e s t i n g u s i n g t h e p u l s e f r o m the caps for we lding, he's talking about wiring them in series to lim it the housecurrent.
I think spot welders are norm ally abou t 5V and arc welders around 50V open circu it.
I agree, I think buyin g an arc welder is the better move as they are inexpensive, reliable and safe. Crappy welds may as well
be glued together.
vurr Novem ber 30th, 2004, 04:22 PM

caps do limit curent, but inductive resistance in series gives m ore stable arc..

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Exploding Wire Project
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View Full Version : Exploding Wire Project
Centimeter October 19th, 2004, 02:08 AM

My purpose is to create an art project in which a large capacitor bank is powered up by a hand crank generator until the voltage is enough to trigger a spark gap resulting in a
tremendously loud and bright exploding wire. My basic concept is similar to that of an EBW blasting box. I purchased 12 2uF/2kV mica-paper polymer pulse type capacitors from
Cornell Dubilier off of ebay, one tungsten spark gap, 2 high voltage diodes, and a 9kv DC transformer that steps up from 150v. I was planning on configuring the capacitors so
that the over all bank rating would be 2uF at 12kv. Is this the optimal configuration of the 12 caps to produce the most pleasing exploding wire? I was planning on using a basic
rc charging circuit. Do I need to use some sort of special high voltage resistor? Is making this thing powered by a ~6v hand crank generator feasible? I will of course be using a
capacitor to step the voltage of the generator up to around 150v. Is there a problem with using DC as the input of the transformer and if so how do I adress this? I was planning
on measuring when the capacitors are fully charged by including a conductivity meter in the circuit. Do I need to use a special high voltage ahmeter or w ill the average
multimeter work? Also, where in the circuit should the meter go? Amazing1 uses a capacitor bank of 96uF at 4.5kv in their exploding wire machine and RISI says that only a
capacitor of 2uF at 2kv is neccesary for an EBW blasting box. So basically I am wondering if my capacitor bank is capable of producing an extremely loud and bright explosion. I
will be using a ~0.5 inch long hair thin piece of copper or nichrome wire as the bridge wire. I get the feeling that the amazing1 device is intended for very long or thick strands
of wire. I know that many of these questions are quite simple and indeed I believe that I know the answ ers to most of them. I just want to be sure about everything so that I
can best prevent destroying my expensive equipment. ;) Any and all help is greatly apreciated!
Zerstoren Sie October 19th, 2004, 03:28 AM

"Do I need to use some sort of special high voltage resistor?"
Yes, arc-over can occur if not. If it's not possible to find a single resistor rated for the voltage, then put several in series, being sure to keep them insulated, a non-conductive
tube with oil could do the trick.
"Is making this thing pow ered by a ~ 6v hand crank generator feasible?"
Yes, but maybe not practical, it may take a good bit of time for the bank to charge.
"I will of course be using a capacitor to step the voltage of the generator up to around 150v."
Capacitors alone do not step up voltage.
"Is there a problem w ith using DC as the input of the transformer and if so how do I adress this?"
Yes, transformers do not transfer energy with a DC input. It must be alternating current.
"Do I need to use a special high voltage ahmeter or w ill the average multimeter w ork?"
An average meter can work, if you have a high-voltage probe to low er the voltage. Otherwise, it'll probably cook the meter.
"Also, where in the circuit should the meter go?"

If you wish to measure the voltage at the capacitor bank, it goes across those terminals.
"I get the feeling that the amazing1 device is intended for very long or thick strands of wire."
Thick w ire is very difficult to explode w ithout many thousand or tens of thousand joules.
I would STRONGLY suggest reading much more than you have before building any pulse-discharge device. A capacitor that's 2uF charged to 12KV stores 144 joules of energy.
(E= 1/2 cv2) That's not something you wanna mess around with, especially if you dont have any experience with high-voltage. The spark gap could sw itch that 144 joules in a
microsecond, turning that 144 watts discharged in one second to 144,000,000 watts in 1us!!
Here's a link to a page that'll be a good start in learning about high-voltage apparatus. http://ww w.kronjaeger.com/hv/
Also, w hy is it you want to charge it with a hand-powered generator??
Child-of-Bodom October 19th, 2004, 09:24 AM

Aside from your beginner questions, which Zerstoren Sie already perfectly answered, there is already a thread of this stuff....http://w ww.roguesci.org/theforum/
showthread.php?t=3425 (CLICK)
Don't go for the data used in the RISI doc, they have tested w ith equipment there, which you can never obtain with home-improved swiches and normal cables. Read the linked
thread carefully, it is very interesting...
Ow, and please place some enters in your posts, that makes it much more readable.
Centimeter October 20th, 2004, 12:28 AM

Wonderful links! I shall thoroughly digest them as soon as school allow s me. I do realise that this device is extremely dangerous and believe me I am trying to learn everything
possible to make my experience safe. Worry not Zerstoren...I will read that entire site before even attempting to assemble anything. I w ish to make it hand crank pow ered
because I want the subsequent explosion to be the result of one's ow n energy. As I said, it is for an art project; I plan on integrating it into my own little jack in the box. It is
intended to represent the false order that is so evident to me in our society. I want the viewer to get involved in the chaos and to see the manifestation of anger and frustration.
That's about as good of an explanation as I can give you at this point. If you want I can provide a more thorough explanation once I fully think things through. I did try to post
in that EBW thread as well as another thread on tools and techniques however both aparently did not pass the moderators. Thus I decided to bring it to the water cooler as I
realy must have these questions answered for both my safety and the future of my project.
After re-examining my capacitor bank, I don't think that I would be able to achieve 12kv/2uF. At such a voltage, the capacitance would be MUCH lower correct? I think it would
be around .6uF. I have a variety of ways to configure my caps and I was wondering what configuration w ould be best for my purposes. In other words, do I w ant high voltage
or high capacitance?
From my research I found that RC circuits must have a farely steady current and voltage. This is obviously a problem w hen using a hand crank generator. How would I go about
evening things out? I thought that a small cap would even the current out but how would I make the generator produce a farely constant voltage? Also I found that converting
the DC into AC shouldn't be a problem at all and stepping the voltage up to 150V shouldn't be a problem either w ith a common w all transformer. Also, I plan on constructing a
flywheel generator to make the powering up process less labor intensive.
Can you explain the high voltage ameter a bit more?
Thanks! :D
warmage October 20th, 2004, 04:21 PM

Dear Centimeter
I think you need to do a search for info on two circuit arangements; one is the "Cockcroft-Walton voltage multiplyer" and the other is the "Kelvin-Varley divider".....whyle your
at it do at least a Google on "Flukemeter"
I believe that will at least get you started, further on look into the procedings of the IEEE.
Centimeter October 20th, 2004, 10:21 PM

Well I finished reading all of the links and I did a bit of research on w hat you recomended warmage. I am not sure how the Cockcroft-Walton voltage multiplyer applies to my
project. Perhaps I could implement my caps into it to take full advantage of the capcitors, however this would involve a lot more time and space and I am not sure if it would
work. I guess I could try to use it for stepping up the hand crank generator.
For the resistor, can I just use a normal ceramic resistor of the desired value and place it in oil? The voltage is realy not all that high and there will only be a current for a short
period of time. Would there still be overheating problems? If nothing else, I will go w ith a water resistor.
What I realy need to know now is whether a high voltage or a high capacitance w ill create the best EBW. I need to know whether or not I should cancel my order of the
transformer. Actualy I may not need to send it back at all. Here is a link to the transformer; http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=3844675708&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOAB:US:6
It talks about a tap and from the picture it says it has two outputs. One seems to say 9,000vDC and the other says 300vDC. I can't seem to figure out w hat the deal is with the
tap. Does this mean that I can vary the voltage some how?
While I am at it, I guess I might as well show you guys the caps I bought. http://cgi.ebay.com/w s/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=3844152725&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOAB:US:6
In the description it even says that they can be used for EFI devices, which is some what motivating.
I think that I did not properly explain the meter thing. I want to use an ammeter to display the current that is coursing through the system. As the caps charge up, the current
will fall until finaly reaching zero, indicating that the caps are fully charged. Perhaps I could use a regular ammeter if I put some resistors on the probes?
Zerstoren Sie October 21st, 2004, 03:47 AM
The transformer on ebay has two outputs, one at 300V and the other at 9000 V, both these are listed DC so I assume there is an internal rectifier. Notice that the input is 120V
AC.
What are the detials of the hand-pow ered generator?? That really should be the first place you start. If you can find a hand generator that puts out 120V AC, you could directly
power that transformer, and then use its output to charge a bank rated for it's output. The 300V terminal would not be used however, and should be covered and insulated
somehow. Also, if the hand-powered gen. does not output a full 120V, but say 90V AC, you can just proportionally figure out the HV output(assuming that is just a transformer
with a rectifier) and design you capacitor bank accordingly.
As for the ammeter, it may be much easier to measure the voltage, instead of current.
With this method, you simply monitor the capacitor banks voltage, and when it is at the voltage you intend to use, well, use it. Now if the spark gap you have is just a simple
tw o conductor gap, the distance of the gap w ill determine when your cap bank will fire, not how much your cap. is charged. This of course is based on the voltage breakdown of
air. You just distance the gap to fire at the time at which it has most charge, takes a bit of experimentation, but once it's set, you w on't need to set it again. Also, if you "w ant
the viewer to get involved in the chaos and to see the manifestation of anger and frustration" that w ill be wonderful, as they won't know w hen the bank w ill fire, and it surely
will startle them.
The voltage multipliers warmage speaks of can also be used to charge the bank directly, these can be ran on either DC or AC. They can be configured to put out the 8-12KV
that I'm assuming your charging your caps to. Since your looking to get the transformer, I suppose that be the w ay to go. Either way can work, as long as you find a hand-
crank generator to supply the pow er with. If I remember right, military hand crank phones output 90V or so, can't remember if its AC or DC, but that'd be great if it's AC, that
could power it all directly.
If you get a generator that meets your needs, what I see in your circuit is this:
Hand-Crank Gen. (120 VAC)
Transformer (120VAC in, 9000VDC out)
Cap Bank (Built for 9 or more KV, at how ever much charge you can afford :) )
Spark gap (Gapped to discharge around 8-9KV)
Test Load (wire)
That's the order the parts would appear in the circuit, I'm assuming you can picture the connections.
Anthony October 21st, 2004, 02:09 PM

You could just measure the current being produced by the hand generator. The voltage at this stage would be easily handled by a cheap multi-meter.
Centimeter October 21st, 2004, 08:43 PM

The current at the generator w ould indicate when the caps are charged? I would think that current w ould still exist on that coil of the transformer even w hen the caps aren't fully
charged. I will probably end up going with the volt meter as I only want to use the meter when setting up the spark gap any way.
As you mentioned, the non-predictable spark gap is a very important part of the design. It is inteded to be my own version of a jack in the box. My only w orry is that it will
cause a heart attack.
I was planning on getting the system running before designing the hand crank generator. I w as just going to make my own out of an electric motor as I couldn't find a place on
the net that sold hand crank generators with flywheels. Perhaps someone can recomend a place? I feel that a flywheel is essential so as to even out the voltage as much as
possible. It will also feel more natural and should require less labor to pow er the system up.
I don't mean to be impatient, but I still need to know whether a high voltage or a high capacitance is better for EBW devices. I am not exactly sure why it would matter as no
matter what configuration, it will produce the same amount of joules right?. I would assume that a higher voltage w ould produce a brighter explosion. If I have calculated
correctly, my capacitor bank w ill store 48 joules correct? Although I am not planning on charging them up to 12kv as that is the maximum before the dielectric breaks down. If I
only charge them up to 9kv it would store around 24.3 joules. Is this enough to make a VERY loud and bright explosion accross a 1/4" long strand of 38 gauge nichrome wire?
On a side note, my caps just arrived. The whole thing weighs ~5 pounds.
Once again, thanks for all the help guys. I can't possibly explain how much it means to me.
Zerstoren Sie October 22nd, 2004, 03:49 AM

If you use a volt-meter, again, be sure to get a HV probe for it. I once ran a digital multimeter at around 700-800 Volts, and it started to make some funny sounds internally.
Surprizingly, it still works, but I wouldn't be doing it again. If you don't w ish to buy a HV probe, it's not all that difficult to set the gap. Simply move it to a position where it
discharges, and slowly space the gap until it doesn't w ork. Just before that point will be the highest voltage. Of course, don't try setting the gap distance while the powers on!! A
good practice is to have the power cord in your hand unplugged, so there is no way it is plugged in or someone could do so. Really setting the gap shouldn't take more than a
few minutes.
As for the capacitor bank, note that E= 1/2CV2, therefore, the voltage is critical in determining the number of joules the bank will store. Much moreso than C, considering that V
is squared in the formula. I would go with high voltage, matching it to the transformers output is the easiest way to go. Also, having the bank rated at 12KV and running at 9KV
is good here. The rectified output probably isn't w ell regulated and there w ill still may be voltage peaks higher than 9KV. Also, the nichromes wire w ill play a part in capacitive
discharge, as that wire has reasonably high resisitance. A higher voltage will allow more energy to flow through at a given time. This also shortens the pulse time, and allows for
more peak power.
Anthony October 22nd, 2004, 01:40 PM

Yes, as the caps become charged, the voltage at the generator will rise, and the current w ill fall. It w on't fall to zero due to leakage current in the caps, charger and step-up
transformer.
Centimeter October 30th, 2004, 09:22 PM

My transformer finaly arived. I set up the capcitor bank and charged the caps up and when I shorted the circuit hardly anything happened...just a small small spark. I got
frustrated so I turned it off and started shorting the caps to make sure they w ere empty and each and every cap I shorted created a pretly large and loud spark. Why on earth
did the caps not all discharge at once? It doesn't make any sense what so ever! They are obviously set up alright as they all charged so what the hell's going on?!?
ProdigyChild October 31st, 2004, 02:23 PM

Strange behaviour, really. If you're using alligator clamps, make sure, they w ork. Half of my alligator clamps are sh1t - the innocent guy who made them focussed on
mechanical properties rather than electrical ones and the cooper w ire inside the cable touches the clamp only by accident :mad:
If it's not the clamp, then things become difficult to explain.
One possibility could be, that the pow er supply exceeds the input voltage AND your transformer has a overvoltage protection, that switches of in that case. If you switch off the
transformer, the voltage of the input capacitor drops into operation voltage and the thing charges with some remaining energy of the input cap.
Or (one of) your caps is over-driven, resulting in an inner temporary short circuit and voltage drop. Know n as self-healing. When you sw itched the transformer off, it accidentally
charged the cap just below its maximum voltage.
All plain theory of course and quite unlikely to happen.

Try to debug step by step. Don't make any assumptions about your devices that you haven't proved, even if proving them seems to be stupid (alligator clamp example).
Centimeter October 31st, 2004, 11:05 PM

Well, I looked though it and found that I haden't wired the caps properly. I rewired it and got the thing w orking and man am I happy. It makes such a loud report! My hearing
goes completely blank for a few seconds...of course I am doing this all in my narrow hallway. Probably w ouldn't be so loud if it w ere outside. Anyhow, I am bipassing the
exploding wire entirely because the spark gap produces a more than satisfactory report. I placed a piece of paper folded 4 times over inbetween the spak gap and it blew a
centimeter wide hole through it!
Off of a wall outlet, the thing takes around 15-20 seconds to trigger the gap. Is it even w orth trying to put a hand crank generator on it? Also, I can't find any decent flywheal
hand crank generators on the net. They are all just these dumb children's chemistry things or cell phone chargers. Dose anybody know if the cell phone chargers have flyw heals
on them? I might just buy a hand crank radio and salvage the generator from there. I have been looking through my EE books and I can't find any sort of circuit that w ould
stabilize the voltage out of the hand crank generator. Will it matter all that much if the transformer is given varying voltages? Also, I tried using a voltmeter on the input side of
the transforer to see if there w as any indication of the caps charging up. I did not observe anything.
Thanks guys for all your help! If anybody wants I can try to post a movie of the thing in action. My video camera doesn't record the report all that well but you would get the
idea.
ProdigyChild November 1st, 2004, 11:25 AM

Yes, make a short video (I have low bandwidth). I'm interested in it. But please include a centimeter mark so we can get an idea of how big that tay is.
It confuses me a bit, that the arc produced as much sound as the bridgewire. In my experiments, bridgew ires are alw ays MUCH louder.
Try some different length perhaps to maximize percussion. Just for the fun, long wires are better sometimes. And Aluminium ones are better (for the show) as copper ones). But
still keep them extremely thin.
I've posted a few photos of my experiments yesterday (EBW thread). Long term exposures w ith a digicam. Looks cool, too ;)
powdermunkey November 1st, 2004, 02:26 PM

Centimeter- if you hook all the caps in parallel, they w ill make a dandy EBW driver. At the lower voltage this will yield, you will probably have better results with a triggered
spark gap switch, although I realize this violates the artistic principle of surprise. A couple of 1/2 inch copper pipe caps with a piezoelectric cigarette lighter makes a good
triggered gap. Google around for "triggered spark gap" to get the idea of how this works.
Centimeter November 1st, 2004, 09:22 PM

Using the EBW is about as loud, however it produces a much more impresive visual effect. The only problem with the EBW is that I w ould have to replace it every time the thing
is used. It is much better to have it just be the spark gap as it can continuously be used by people in a gallery. I will try to post a video, how ever it will take a w hile because I
must order some software. The thing is sort of predictable because it starts to buzz quite a bit before it triggers. Perhaps it could be said that it just adds to the tension and
results in a more startling experience. I am going to drop by the mall tomorow and pick up a hand crank radio. I'll check back w ith the results.
Centimeter November 4th, 2004, 07:59 PM

I am going to purchase this military generator; http://www.armyradio.com/arsc/customer/product.php?productid=1533&cat=86&page=1
It w ill geneate about 7.5 Watts. In order to attach it to the tranformer I need to also buy an inverter. Most inverters have an input of 12VDC so I will probably step down the
voltage. Will this work and about how long would it take to charge the capacitor bank up?
Edit- OMG!!! I just checked out the HV caps on ebay and look what I found... http://cgi.ebay.com/w s/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4662&item=3850312181&rd= 1
That's 2 150uf 6kV energy discharge caps. That's 5400 Jules!!!!!! To think that mine is a paltry 24.3 Jules. I can't even imagine how fantastic an EBW those things could make.
Think of the lasers! You could almost crunch a refrigerator with those!
Centimeter November 15th, 2004, 02:51 AM

In order to make the transformer work, I must have a generator that puts out AC, thus I must have an alternator. There are no alternators on the market suitable for hand
cranking so I am going to make one. I purchased 30 NdFB magnets and a spool of 32# wire. So far I have wound 12 400 turn coils and I am going to assemble the rest this
week (hopefully). All I need to do is set the coils in resin and then make the two magnet panels. In case you haven't guessed already, I am making a single phase co-axial
alternator. I expect it to put out ~60VAC at 120RPM. The transformer says that its input is 115VAC 60Hz. My alternator w ill not put out 60Hz...is this a problem? If it is, how can
I go about making it 60Hz? Considering that it is not going to put out 115VAC, I need to step the voltage up. Such a unique output w ill most likely require me to make the
transformer. Anyhow, that's w hat I have been doing up until now . I w ill be back w ith another update once the alternator is finished.
Boomer November 15th, 2004, 07:50 AM

Why not use one from a bike light? They are AC, they are small, and even at only 3 VA and 50% charger efficiency, it will take under 20 seconds to charge your cap to 20J.
Or what about using the DC generator to power either a CCFL driver or a flash unit w ith voltage doubler? Or one of the 12V -> 115/230V converters for camping (car adapter)
between generator and HV transformer?
Why do you w ant a hand-crank system BTW? It is much bulkier than a battery, and more suspicious.
Centimeter November 19th, 2004, 11:58 PM

Well...the purpose of this device is not for detonating explosives. It is for an art project in which the view er puts their energy into the eventual discharge. Hence the alternator.
After discharging the caps outside, I realised that they aren't all that loud after all. After further contemplation, I think that capacitance is more important than voltage when it
comes to making loud sounds. After all, the average static spark one experiences from touching a light sw itch is probably around the same voltage as my caps, yet it is no
where near as loud. Thus I purchased a 6000uFD/250v electrolytic capacitor from Amazing1.com This should store just about 120joules w hen charged to 200v. 120J vs 2.43J...I
assume this will be MUCH louder. Furthermore, the 120J is being discharged in a much smaller area do to the lower voltage. If it doesn't work, I could always just use it in a coil
or rail gun. :D Imagine, the 2.43J cap bank cost me over 100USD where as this 120J cap cost me 35USD. :rolleyes:

How are you going to make 200V jump across a spark gap? Or are you going back to the idea of an exploding bridge-wire?
grammarless November 21st, 2004, 06:04 PM

I have a 600 Joule electolyte capacitor bank and the discharges are pretty ridicoulous. Steel w ool explodes in a shower of sparks, but when the discharges are compared to my
44 Joule 1000volt capacitor they are louder but longer. The electolyte discharges go boom but the higher voltage capacitor makes a nice pop. I doubt the electolyte will make a
good EBW because slow rise times, but it will make an excellent noise maker.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Stengun MKII sear
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steelhead October 20th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 3 : 2 9 P M

C a n a n y o n e p l e a s e s u p p l y m e with pictures of the sear ? I want pictures of the left and rig h t s i d e o f i t . I d o p o s e s s t h e
construction plans, but the exact dimentions and shape of the sear are somewhat blurry.
macgyver6868 S e p t e m b e r 7 th, 2006, 09:28 PM

If you go to www.prex is.com /sten , go to the sidebar and under free stuff,click on the STEN BLU EPR INTS it will take you to a
page with inform ation on all of the sten parts with m ach inist prin ts for each part.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > High energy pulses and power
switching
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View Full Version : High energy pulses and power switching

This thread is meant to cover theory and practical plans of devices for creating high energy pulses with extrem ely short power
rise times. Preferably, triggering of the pulses should be possible by a lo w power signal (e lectric or other).
S u c h t e c h n i q u e c a n b e u s e d t o s e t o f f h i g h e x p losives and do lots of other unuseful yet fun things :D

Explosive chem icals as the m ost obvious appro ach are ruled out.
Charging, storing and switching of energy/powe r are the c h a l l e n g e s t o t a k e .

Easily obtainable m a t e r i a l s s h o u l d b e u s e d .
U n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d i m itation is more im portant than som eone boasting of the very special device he just got from e bay (and
no one else will be able to do).
Probably, m ost of the tim e we 'll discuss about high voltage generators and spark gaps - stuff you can abuse for blo wing EBW
(exploding bridge wire) and EFI (exploding foil initializers) kind of toys.
Guidelines for this thread:
a) use the title field to summ arize, what you gonna talk about.
b) whenever possible, try to add quantitative data rathe r than suspicion. '1.8kV' is much m ore expressive than 'high voltage'.
I f u n s u r e a b o u t a n u m ber, let us know, you're unsure. It's not a shame to be unsure, it's a sign of awareness!
As a appetizer, here's a link to get an idea about industries state of art:

http://optoelectronics.perkinelmer.com /content/Related Links/HESbrochure.pdf
W e can do m ost of these things, too :D
Note, there's already a thread about EBW s, if you're sim ply interested in getting a EBW -cap to work:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=3425
...and the water cooler 'bridge wire project':

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=4339

Glass has a very interesting property: it is purely elastic! Either it goes back to its original shape after remo v i n g s h a p e -
changing forces or it has already broken. At least if the time scale is not centuries.
G l a s s c a n h a v e e n o r m ous tensile strength: S=3400MPa (=3400N/mm 2) for E-glass fibres and can be stretched by e =3.5-4%
until break. Elasticity: E=73GPa (sim ila r to Alum inium). That's at m ost W/V = 1/2*E*e^2 = 58.4J/cm3 energy until break down.
That allows to construct an interesting device:

a glass rod + a piezo loudspeaker connected to the middled of it. Lift a ton of m aterial with that rod. Then connect a function
g e n e r a t o r t o t h e p i e z o a n d e x cite the glass rod a resonance frequency......clink......BAM + ground trem bling!
Switching a few kN with a battery powered electronic device and NO explosives and NO hum a n - d e t e c t a b l e s o u n d ( u l t r a s o u n d ) : D
P o s s i b l y t h e s a m e technique is applica ble to ce ram ics.
Pure fiction?

I n t h e g l a s s r o d m e t h o d t h e p i e z o i d e a s o u n d s o v e r c o m plicated and a little unreliable anyway. Ho w about simply heating it
rapidly with a coil of wire causing it to crack, or if that were too unreliable, heating a metal rod in contact with it forcing it
a g a i n s t t h e r o d . W h a t e v e r m e thod I come up with, I still cant think of anything th at would be an im p r o v e m e n t o v e r 2 0 0 0 y e a r
old egyption or greek technology. For exam ple a trap door close d with a lever and secured with a pin. Tiny am ount of force
n e e d e d b y t h e p i n t o k e e p t h e l e v e r i n place, it goes the trap door opens, or 2 ch ain ends held with a link that swings open or
m any other reliable m e t h o d s .
Spark gaps, Marx style switching and thyratrons are alm ost certainly the best way to go for easy high power pulses, but they
tend to fry sem iconductor circuits. The use is very sim ple I'm not sure wh at you are hoping to learn. Setup a spark gap thats
just too wide to fire and find a way to make it fire, introduce ionisation (an interelectrode, UV flash, that sort of thing), or a
s h a r p v o l t a g e s p i k e ( s a y f r o m an electrically connected second spark gap at lower voltage), or alter the distance (say by having
a s p inning in ner electrode) an d it cond ucts.
W ith regard to fast storage if low tech rules and explosives arnt an option stacked foil capacitor are pretty much the pinnicle
and the only question is the p lastic. Teflon rule s, PE will do, PVC pretty crappy, PP good. (all from m e m o r y s o n o t 1 0 0 %
relia ble.)
Most of these electrical topics have been done to death on the internet a llready, m ainly in the area of tesla coils, th eyre cheap
to do, they work but operation depends a lot on the construction . If you expand these basic things into semiconductors you
h a v e t h e o p p a s i t f e a t u r e s , o p e r a t i o n d e p e n d s l e s s o n t h e c o n s t r u c t i o n a n d m u c h m o r e o n t h e d e s i g n , i t s m uch m ore
expensive and understanding the circu it properly involves 90% of the subject of e lectronics.

C h i l d - o f - B o d o m uses a car relay to switch a capacitor. The contacts of the relay weld together while switching.
T h i s m orning I had the idea o f modifying the relay as follows:

Stop the contacts from touching. Let them only approach each other to a distance of save SBV (self breakdown voltage) of an
air spark gap. W hen the relay 'switches' an arc is formed that bridges the two contacts. W elding contacts is im p o s s i b l e .
T h e d i s t a n c e f o r a 2 k V a r c o v e r s h o u l d b e l e s s t h a n 0 . 4 m m according to my experim ents. So a bit precision will be required for
that modification.
Child-of-Bodom Novem ber 11th, 2004, 09:00 AM

The welding is no problemo, I just m a k e a s m all hole in the casing of the relay, and with a screwdriver you can open it agian.
The relays won't last forever this way, but how m any tim es do you actually use them :rolle yes: ?
I a s k e d P e r k in Elmer what a T riggered Spark Gap would cost, the sm allest one, 2-4KV, 10KA -720 Euro per piece :eek: :eek:
:eek: :mad:
So that is a no-go.
I like the ide a of a TSG, but what eats me is th e fact that a sim ple drop of water, or a higher hum idity can m a k e t h e w h o l e
system far from s a f e . W hat would be the m inim a l a m ount of tim es the g a p s h o u l d b e l a r g e r t h e n t h e a u t o - b r e a k d o wn
distance? 2 times looks a little less, 3-4 tim es? Does it still work then?...
Anthony Novem ber 11th, 2004, 02:02 PM

W hat about a solenoid actuated switch?
This one doesn't look too hard to mak e, and is supposed to be good for 50 000J
http://205.243.100.155/fram es/gallery/newgap5a.jpg
http://205.243.100.155/fram es/Newgap2a.jpg
Source: http://205.243.100.155/fram es/shrinkergallery.htm l Bert's quarter shrink i n g p a g e .
ProdigyChild Novem ber 11th, 2004, 05:28 PM

COB: If you avoid the welding, it will la st forever!
I estim ate I have 30+ switches per evening :D
Provided, the electrodes are b ig enough, you can hardly detect any wear of the spark gaps. I m a d e l o t s o f e x p e r i m ents with a
v a c u u m s p a r k g a p ( 0 . 1 a t m ) a nd fired it a few hundred tim es in short circuit m o d e . T h e c o p p e r e l e c t r o d e p l a t e s ( 5 m m x 5 m m
for the arc, 1 0 m m x 1 0 m m for cooling) show no wear/oxidation, they're only slighly lighter in color. Glossy surface!
The arc of this type is about 8 m m i n d i a m e t e r a n d 2 0 m m long. I believe , the low I/area avoids we ar of the electrod e s . I l i k e
the faint sound and bright flashing of it.
I haven't build a am bient pressure spark gap with suitable diameter so far, only m a x 2 m m d i a m e t e r r o d s . T h e s e d o h a v e
wear, but still good for umpteen shorts without much change of SBV.
Perkin Elm er do m ake profit with such prices!
H u m idity, water?? That's why we should build a case for our equipm ent....
A b o u t b r e a k d o w n v o l t a g e : T h e d o c u m ent above says: operating voltage = 25% u p to 80% of SBV. You can't go below the 25%
because triggering becom e s d ifficult and unreliable. Double the self triggering distance will be enough!
Above all, a high voltage trigg er pulse is required. I've tried to trigger a 2 kV gap with voltages up to 1500V (BU205 transistor
m a x i m um voltage). It was a failure! Som etimes works, som etim e s n o t , s o m e t i m es self triggering. Even high current pulses
with small caps are by far outperformed by a lo w current high voltage trig ger. I got the im pression: once yo u h a v e a s u i t a b l e
t r i g g e r v o l t a g e , t h e d e s i g n o f t h e s p a r k g a p d o e s n o t m atter too m uch. Alm ost everything involving three e lectrodes works.
I'm d e s i g n i n g a P C B for m y (future) current-pulse-box. It contains a stabilized high voltage charger (400..2000V) + 400V -
SCR-switched trigger generato r using a clum sy and heavy car ignition coil. I hope I can put the spark gap o n board, too,
without killing the semiconductors from the current peaks. Proba bly finished this week-end! I can't wait to d etermine trigger-
signal-to-fire delay!
I expect ....errr.... hope ;) less than 20us.

Decouple the pulse electronics from the semico nductors as far as possible. Spark gaps cause high voltage ripples in the ns
range on gro und lines and these can fry sem iconductors.
It sounds like you are generating a high voltag e and switching this with a sem iconductor d irect the trigger terminal. Thats....
U m m.. Not ideal.
Is firing delay a critical factor?
I'd be incline d t o s u g g e s t s o m ething m ore like you find in a cam era flash circuit which is e ssentially a shorted thyratron. W h a t
you are making is an air thyratron. A second tiny cap is charged to say 300v and this is shorted into a 20:1 coil with about 10
turns primary. This induces ve ry quickly about 6kv over the secondary wh ich is connected to the strip outside the flash tube
indu cing the ionisation and it fires. My point is that the switching m echanism for the trigge r never needs to deal with the
triggering voltage of 6kv, only the prim ary voltage of 300v. A simple pair of contacts are all thats needed there, its fast and
relia ble and 300v isnt m uch for a decent sem iconductor to handle if absolutly needed. You will nee d to check imped e n c e s
though. Its just a shame the power in the coil of a cam era trigger xf wouldnt be e nough to trigger an air ga p (I shouldnt
think).
W hy are you aim ing for less than 20us and why wouldnt m echan ical contacts do for the firing button?
Zerstoren Sie Novem ber 11th, 2004, 07:27 PM

Anyone ever try a me rcury switch?? Basically one sim ply dips one contact into a small pool of m ercury. The switch time is
extrem ely fast and there is no bounce. (Thus, it can also be used to m anually switch logic circuits) Assum in g you could find the
m ercury, all you would need for a high power switch is an enclosure and a way to m ove the contact into the mercury. Nikola
Tesla's patents cover this technique.
Here's a list of them : (U.S. Patents)

609,251
609,245
611,719
609,246
609,247
609,248
609,249
613,735
He calls it an Electric-Circuit Controller. All of these use a rotating contact for fast switching. They should provide ideas though
for ways of going abo ut this. Maybe a solenoid with large contact attached to it would work.
Jacks Complete Novem ber 12th, 2004, 10:48 AM

Zerstoren Sie,
Mercury vapours/fum es kill, and mercury is actually quite tricky to deal with.
If you want to go down this road, m ake the entire switch outside, then pump the air out as best yo u can, flush with Argon,
p u m p down, flush again, fill with argon , and then reduce the pressure to probably half an atm o s p h ere, then seal it. Toggle it
remotely, perhaps by tilting, since the mercury will run to the lowest point, behind a screen. Put it on a tray so that if the glass
breaks you can catch the expensive mercury and not have it soak into th e carpet!
Tesla never knew mercury cau s e d m adness, and he was, shall we say, not completely sane by the end...
An air switched, pum p down trigger would be easier and safer to use. Just get your electrodes, put them i n s i d e a g l a s s t u b e ,
about twice as far as you would expect it to arc in still air, and leave a sm all hole past one, for the air to get out. Hook it up to
the vaccuum pump, then when the pressure drops far enough, you will get an arc. If you can't get the vaccuum low enough,
just turn it all off, and shift the one elctrode further towards the other. En s u r e t h e p u m p e n d i s t h e g r o u n d e d end, btw.
If you are going to use the UV output for anyth ing, carry on. If not, sheild it with enough that you can't see the arc, since it will
sunburn you and give you bad eyes if you don't!
Boomer Novem ber 12th, 2004, 01:20 PM

W e are advancing in technology! I nea rly feel ashamed that my EBW box still works by touching the second cable to the hot
term inal. :o
Have you actually me asured the current rise tim e ? I o n c e u s e d a f l a s h t u be as a switch, triggered by photons from a second
tube which again was triggered norm ally. This was for insulation m ostly. I had to m ove to a m onster relay (8000V/4000A, se lf
m ade from copper bar, iron + big e-magnet), because the tube had a cu rrent rise tim e of several s, while mechanical switches
get to 500ns or below (limited by circuit inducta nce).
I d o r e m e m ber that arcing on HV lines takes 200-300ns for full ionisation, or so m y professor said . I never tried a spark gap
because of the slow arc in flash tubes. Was it the argon, the fact they work above 1 atm . or was it the photon-triggering?
:con f u s e d :
P.S. Just realized that at the speed I move the wire towards the terminal, there is probably an arc before it fully touches.
Meaning they CAN be fast, at least if <1mm short ( -> flash tube too long at 50m m ?). :)

F l a s h t u b e s a r e d e s i g ned to be fairly slow, and to have nontrivial on im p e d e n c e s s o t h e y a r n t a g o o d e x a m p l e . T h e c a p i n
those circuits are also very slo w. Most camera tubes are low pressure xenon, I'm unsure what you were using. Some
professional tubes are high pressure capillary tubes, they would be even worse speed wise.
For specific a pplications clever designs switched by a spark gap can produce a pulse in the r e g i o n o f 1 0 n s l o n g .
For high voltages a switch is just a variable spark gap, the problem is they cant handle the sam e sort of current without
d a m age, rise tim e s h o u l d n t b e a n i s s u e .
If you look a t the links Anthony posted the stunning thing there is that though theyre using spark gaps which can be
n a n o s e c o n d f a s t t h e e n e r g y d u m p takes in the region of 100 us! Its tota lly determ ined by the rest of the circuit.
ProdigyChild Novem ber 13th, 2004, 11:04 PM

A hard lot of work is behind m e - m y p o w e r - p u l s e b o x ' s m a i n P C B is finished!
Bad news first: I have really problem s in acquiring num bers without a dig ital oscilloscope. I can't trigger from the digital inpu t
signal. The following surges disturb almost everything a nd cause the oscilloscope to trigger upteen tim es thereafter. A real
m ess on the screen. It's rather guessing than m easurin g....
Most probably the delay between input signal e d g e a n d s p a r k g a p f i r i n g i s i n t h e r a n g e o f 3 0 - 5 0 u s .

I t s e e m s , t h e s p a r k g a p n e e d s 2-6us (i.e. about 4 us jitter) from HV trigger to conduction. Howeve r, com mutation is definite ly
m uch less than 500ns (unm easurable with m y equipment), peak current 2.0-2.4kA with 3x0.33uF @ 2.0KV.
W h a t m e a n s , t h e d e v i c e m akes at least 4kA/us rise :co ol:
It should also be noted, that the caps don't give m ore than 2.5kA, when shorted with a wire. This is nearly the sam e value a s
with the spark gap.
The longest tim e is consum ed by the HV trigger. It's build with a low cost SCR (C106D) and perhaps can be i m p r o v e d . U s i n g a
car ignition coil isn't optimal either. I u sed it, because current rise and peak current are within the SCR's specifications, when
discharging a 0.1uF/400V cap into this coil. Maybe I try a HV-MO SFET instead.
For m ost applications, the utm ost sim ple SCR triggering m e c h a n i s m is sufficient.
The data sheets for average power SCR's (<10A) prom ise switching tim e s o f 0 . 6 - 2 u s .
A b o u t t h e ' o n b o a r d ' s p a r k g a p e n d u r a n c e - 8 0 m m f r o m C M O S circuit by the way:

I let the circuit run with a NE555 signal generator (1/3Hz) input for 1.5hours. 150uH 'load', 2J energy. That's 1800 shots! The
contacts and trigger electrode becom e black after a few minutes, without degrade in performance nor a single m isfire. It works
relia ble from 1.6kV-2.1kV (MAY fire at 1.2kV, b u t n o g u a r a n t e e ) . I s h o u l d p r o v i d e a p h o t o , s o o n .
A well adjusted spark gap is really reliable!
1/2 hour with shorted trigger signal input and b lowing at the gap , flashing it with a very po werful flash, switching on and off
lights did not cause a ny spurious trigger. However, leaving digital input open causes spurious triggers all the tim e, especially if
I touch the curcuit with a m etal part. Not shorting trigger input will result in premature firing :(
@Bo o m e r : w h e n e x p e r i m e n t i n g with low pressure and 10-20mm of electrode distance, I observed considerable performance
loss - m ore energy converted into light! I haven't measured the timing, so I don't know if that was bad, too. W orth, repeating
this experiment....
I've also experimented with a broken car relay. I tried to adjust it, to not close the contacts, but only let them a p p r o a c h
0 . 2 m m . I failed. Normal relays are too elastic.
I had to adjust it to a such large gap (when 'on '), that no self triggering occured. So I ground the contacts off, an put a sturdy
copper wire there instead. Now I have a relay, that arcs over at 1.9kV, wh en switched 'on', and estim ated 4kV when 'off'.
W orks fine, too.
E D I T : I ' v e a d d e d p h o tos. The capacitors are not shown. Surrounding of the arc lig hted digitally to reveal details.
ProdigyChild D e c e m ber 4th, 2004, 08:00 AM

I r e p l a c e d t h e s p a r k g a p b y a n i m proved one. The electrodes co nsist now of 1mm copper plates pressed in t o p r o p e r s h a p e i n
a vice. I used a digital oscilloscope to m easure swiching tim e s a n d d e l a y ( O M G . . . ) :
inpu t trigger to peak current = 8-9us, low jitter
rise time = 5 00ns for 2000A p e a k m a x i m u m
Delay is m uch better than expected!
Rise tim e is still difficult to m easure, b ecause it consists of a 'RF noise' of +-4000A. I'm quite sure , the oscilloscope or cable s
are a bit confused at that tim e .
A n d I u s e d a transform er as load, rath er than a resistor. I can't explode wires at work, do I ? ;)
I included a schematic of the circuit. Feel free to provide criticism , I'm not an expert, nor reluctant to im provem ent. I can
provide a Postscript/PDF layout , if desired.
The short delay between trigger and firing allows to build things like 'stopping a b ullet by a detonation in front of it'.
A sh ockwave travels less than 10km/s *10us = 100m m before the circuit fires after sensing a shockwave and jitter is only
a b o u t 1 0 m m :cool:
Another interesting thing to do with that circuit is to produce high voltage pulses at high current. I build an air coil transform er
for 10kV / 6A+. Using 10 time s the ratio, it would be possible to produce an X-ray pulse with a rectifier tube...
Spark gaps rock!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Backscatter imaging X-ray
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Jacks Complete Novem ber 12th, 2004, 10:32 AM

http://www.as-e.com /products_solution s/zbv.asp (Google cache http://21 6.239.59.104/search?
q=cache:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.as-e.com %2Fproducts_solutions%2Fzbv.asp)
shows rather a lot of nice photos of the new X-ray backscatter system s, with com parisions with the traditional system s.
They are very high quality im ages, and I suspect these might be a great way to ensure that the jackboot stays in place for
e v e r . H o m e s , c a r s a n d p e o p l e can all be searched for anything, from a great distance, in real time or faster! (You can drive the
van past, record and review it later!!)
OF course, now we ha ve seen it, we can com e up with basic ways to avoid this detection system.
Firstly, the strong con trast is between organic and non-organic m atter - u se a car with leather seats as the first step. Secondly,
when putting explosives into the panels of a ca r, take the door apart and m ould it to shape, rather than having obvious
squares. Thirdly, hide like with like - hiding a gun on top of a com puter monitor is really d umb. Go for hiding the outlines, take
it to bits, and ensure it is hidden with bits that look the sam e. hide barre ls with random pipes, bag s of drugs with other plant
m aterial, etc.
Anyone else got any ideas?

The photos show quite easy cases: organic material behind a thin layer of absorb i n g m e t a l .
This nifty technique should allow to build shield ing walls, that pretend som e object to be inside, that isn't:
on a absorbing carrier wall, we 'paint' our 2-D projection of a fictive content of the trailer. The color of the artwork wo u l d b e
velcro/m agnetic/adhesive organic plates. Such a m odular system can sim ulate different contents very easily.
Behind the shield, we can put whatever we want :D
Only if they combine traditional X-ray (absorb) with the new technique, such prete ntion isn 't possible.

W ell, if you read the website, apparently they do use both techniques. And som e of the photos are not through thin m etal
sheets, but through entire cars and tru cks!
However, being able to see through an inch or 12 of ste el means that picking which safe to open, and opening it, m ight
suddenly be very m uch easier!

The system's unique "drive-by" capability allows one or two operators to conduct X-ray im aging of suspect vehicles and objects
while the ZBV drives past.
:(
matjaz Novem ber 15th, 2004, 06:36 AM

. . . A n d s o m e of the p hotos are not through thin metal sheets, but through entire cars and trucks! However, being able to see
through an inch or 12 of steel means that picking which safe to open, ...
Thats overhope. :) I'd say you don't actually see _throu gh_ it, since it cannot be done with X-rays and massive obje cts. Could
in principle work with higher-energy light but wo uld probably result in radiation overdose to living things (and complicate the
detection system a lo t).
So one can only see _around_ thicker objects, which is possible with a m ulti-point X-ray source and/or m any detectors spaced
a p a r t a n d a l m ost around the object studied. And this obviously provides enough geom etrical data to produce a com p u t e d
"see-through" im age. But it's not really see-through except m aybe for th in objects.
A closed safe won't le t one do the "see around" backscatter thing and is too thick for see through.

NBK, yes. Very worrying, and something to be aware of when cacheing or hiding. The police state of the future will be
unstoppable.
m atjaz - you can indeed see right through these things. Picking a lock would be quite simple with a high resolution system .
Interestingly, they give som e great pictures if you bang in a false em ail address.
The attached picture shows what you can see, and if you zoom in a bit in PSP, you can see great detail, espcially on the
electronics in the radio in the transm ission picture (the RHS) and the trigger m e c h a n i s m of the Glock, along with the bullets in
the m agazine, and the trigger safety is there too (though fuzzy) in the LHS backscatter picture. I suspect that with a little
future refinem ent, this could be an essential to ol for locksm iths, as well as the police, firebrigade, etc. The main thing holding
this technology back is the sheer size of the equipm ent (a truck), and the radiation hazard. U sing it remotely only would
reduce these problem s, and a lower power source would probably be fine for detailed work.

OK. So we have to pu t up with the fact of beeing watched?
Beeing watch ed without knowing is worse than knowing we've been x-rayed. So the first step will be to build a detector for X-
rays.
It's m uch better to be sure ab out what the friendly policem an already knows, when asking for your driver's licence....
If we have a sensor, then we can produce a m agnetic bom b t h a t e x p l o d e s , w h e n e x p o s e d t o X - r a y s . O r can we find a chemical,
t h a t e x p l o d e s f r o m X-rays? A H2-Cl2 m ixture explodes from UV light, so it is not too far fetched, is it?
Now stick a few of the s e X - b o m b s a t r a n d o m t o s o m e trailers - preferably ones th at carry flam a b l e l i q u i d s / g a s e s .
Even better, spill out cancerog e n c h e m icals at the X-ray check points. Soon, som eone will find a 'coincidence' between the new
X-ray technology and cancer casualties and the technology will fall into bad reputation :p
john_smith Novem ber 20th, 2004, 05:51 AM

Yes, the carcinogenics thing would be fun ;) For transporting sen sitive stuff, it's probably best to do what proffesional car
thieves and drug couriers in "checkpoint countries" have done fo r ages: have a clean scou t vehicle (with an x-ray detector in
this case) driving som e distan ce in front of the stolen (or whatever) vehicle and reporting checkpoints via CB/cellphone.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > The "Clapper"
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nbk2000 D e c e m ber 23rd, 2004, 06:16 PM

T h e " C lapper" is a de vice you plug into electrical outlets, then plug your appliance into, so that you can clap you hands and
turn it on and opff.
I had the idea of using one as a gunshot detector inside of buildings so that, in case of armed invaders taking shots at you,
the "Clapper" would switch on your defenses autom atically, or the "Valhalla" defense.
D o e s a n y o n e h e r e h a ve a clapper that they can test by putting up to a speaker playing a gunshot sound file?
I got the idea while watching a video of SWAT piggies in a shoot-house with their MP5s, and hearing the 3 shot burst in slow-
m o . R e m i n d e d m e o f t h e 3 c l a p s i n t h e " C l a p p e r " c o m m ercial.
2,4,6-TNP D e c e m ber 23rd, 2004, 06:24 PM

The clapper m ay also b e u s e d a s a t r i g g e r f o r a b o m b . I c a n t h i n k o f m a ny ways this could be used with precision to detonate
a n e x p l o s i v e d e v i c e a t a n e x a ct tim e or as a re sult of various mechanical actions.

I'm just interested in finding out if it can work as a gun-shot detector without having to buy and test one myself. ;)
mongo blongo D e c e m ber 24th, 2004, 10:37 AM

I think it sho uld work:
O n e o f t h e m ost basic sound activated switch can be m a d e u s i n g a m ic, operational amp chip, flip flop and a relay (IIRC). A
resistor must be used between the mic and the o p a m p ( o r m a y b e b e t w e e n p i n 1 - 8 o n t h e o p a m p) to change the trigger
threshold onto the flip flop.
On a clap trigger, I think it is the sam e setup but using 2 flip flo p s . O n e o f t h e m being controlled by a 555IC timing chip (or
other). The first clap changes the state of the first flip flop and another clap changes the state of the other flip flop thus
activating the relay.
Because the first flip flop is limited by the set time in th e 555 ch ip, it will change back to norm al state after this tim e ( e g 2
seconds). If there is not two claps within 2 seco nds, the second flip flop will not change state. This prevents false triggering.
As to the actual sound triggering the setup, this can be any sound that is louder than the trigger threshold set by th e resisto r.
I should think that the comm ercial clap switches work on much the same principal so I can see no reason why any loud noise
spike like a gun-shot would not work.
Edit: Here are two schematics out of m a n y a v a i l a b l e o n t h e n e t I f o u n d :
http://www.electronic-circuits-d iagrams.com /rem otecontrolsim a g e s / r e m otecontrolsckt4.shtm l
http://www.electronicsforu.com /EFYLinu x/circuit/may2003/ci4-clap.pdf
tiac03 D e c e m ber 28th, 2004, 04:17 AM

It should work, but th ere is too much room for error in a toy like that, anything th at rem otely sounds like clapping would set it
off. (which is also why TNP shouldn't attem pt to hook one up to anything that can exterm inate him while he is setting it up)
So I assume that although it would work, there would be too many false alarm s to make it anywhe re near reliable.

Irony would be it setting off the 'self-destruct' when a Clapper ad cam e o n the telly. :p
O b v i o u s l y i t w o u l d b e a s i m p l e e x p e d i e n t , l i k e i n a m e e t somewhere with people you don't trust, and you want som ething to
cover your ass with.
If it was to be a perm anent installation, I'd have som e t h i n g c u s t o m m a d e that would discrim i n a t e g u n s h o t s f r o m o t h e r s o u n ds
by things like volume , pulse duration, frequency range, etc.
Silentnite D e c e m ber 28th, 2004, 11:49 PM

W h a t a b o u t s o m ething like a voice recognition for your com puter? You can get cables to send out a signal at a preset word or
c o m m and. It wouldn't be that hard to write som e code for it either.
Slightly O T but I heard that th ey're im p l e m e n t i n g s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h i s i n L . A . ? S e n s o r s t h r o u g h t t h e n e i g b o r h o o d s a n d u s i n g

computers to triangulate the origination of the gunshot.
Valinomycin D e c e m ber 29th, 2004, 10:43 AM

voice recognition is really dam n h a r d t o d o . I ' v e m a d e s e v e r a l a t t e m pts and it never worked :( . I personally think its nearly
im possible for non genious or owner of a big software com p a n y . ( m y s y s t e m s s o m e t i m es worked for single letters under
perfect circumstances)
Silentnite D e c e m ber 29th, 2004, 05:32 PM

I've had good luck with AT&T's VR e n g i n e . Y o u j u s t n e e d t o s p e a k c l e a r l y . O r a s m y S p e e c h T h e r a p y t e a c h e r o n c e s a i d
"Enunciate". O nly problem is I don't have any experiance as far as whether or not there are non-english recognition's
available. W hat about having one of those Self-defense whistles where you pull the tab, a nd that could be coded into the
comp, or even use that as the clapper set-off, so long as you put in a higher resistor, you could actually m a k e t h a t p e r m a n e n t .
So long as you don't like tea:)
This will work , and the obvious way to threshold it is on volume, using a two or m ore m icrophone input.
P u t o n e m i c r o p h o n e o n o n e s i d e , a n d t h e o t h e r o n t h e o t h e r s i d e . B o t h m i c r o p h o n e s h a v e t o g e t a b o v e t h e t h r e s h o ld before
trigger, so only really loud things will reach thre shold, and a fairly loud event right next to one m i c r o p h o n e ( e v e n t a p p i n g t h e
m ike) won't cause an unexpected issue.
U n l e s s y o u a re expecting som eone with a moderator/silenced subsonic p istol, the extrem e pressure levels from the g u n s h o t ( s )
i n s i d e a s m a ll room should be quite easy to trigger on. Having done a little CQ B, and shot in a lot of ranges, indoor ranges
are hard on the ears even with subsonic .22 rifles, whereas outdoors they are quite quiet, as the sound doesn't echo back from
the walls.
I wouldn't wa nt to wire explosives to anything like this, but then nor would I want to try to trigger off the three round burst, the
frequency signature, or anything else that is that variable - the police m ight use a single shot from a shotg un (130dB+, even
m o r e d e a f e n ing indoors!) or an MP5 (3 shot burst?) or just a sid earm (9m m Glock or .45 1911?)
D o n ' t f o r g e t a m a n u a l panic button as well.
W ith three or m o r e s o u n d s e n sors, you could have a targetting system triangulate on the noise, which could be interesting.
nbk2000 January 7th, 2005, 07:35 PM

A lot of the SWAT pork are getting silencers on their weapons nowadays.
They say it's for "hearing protection", which I suppose it can be, but it's really just a tool for the assassins in black to quietly
m urder their victims without traum a t i z i n g t h e n e a r b y s h e e p l e .
T h a t ' s a g o o d i d e a o f u s i n g t w o m ics to average the sound input. It wouldn't be d ifficult in m y case since I live silently, so any
noise louder than a cough or a fart could be used to trigger the security.

T h e o t h e r a d vantage of suppressors is that the y m ake it much more difficult (if not im possible) to locate the shooter from
firing signiature (smo ke/dust in daytim e a n d m uzzle flash at night).
That's why the US m arine sniper team s use suppressed M16s for night sniping (the observer carrie s it during the da y). The
bullet is supersonic and still m akes a hell of a racket, but the targets have no idea where the shots are coming from . Using a
stan dard .308 sniper rifle at night will m a k e e n o u g h m u zzle flash to give you awa y, and since night scopes are limited to
r a n g e s o f l e s s t h a n 3 0 0 m , there is no real disa dvantage to using the .223 cartridge.
This is proba bly even m ore pronounced in the situations faced b y p o l i c e s n i p e r s / m a r k s m e n due to the m uch shorter ranges
involved.
Jacks Complete January 12th , 2005, 12:17 AM

I r e a d s o m ewhere (on here?) that the IR signature from a supressed rifle was very m uch larger than the one from an
unsupressed. Apparently, the flash is bright and visible, but gives little info to the naked eye, and is likely to be m issed by
NVG unless in the field of view. Since these are quite na rrow, you get away with it. W ith a supressor or brake, you get a much
s m a ller flash from t h e m u z z l e that can be seen by the naked eye, but the glow from the IR lingers for som e seconds. (Hot
things cool very m uch faster than cold things)
Y o u c o u l d e a sily triangulate off the sensors for position, and, indeed, if you wrote and wired a few of these sensors indoors,
there is no reason a weatherproof version couldn't be placed about the outside, a llowing for a strong passive detector net. The
p o s i t i o n a n d r a n g e s e t t i n g s c o u l d b e t u n e d t o i g n o r e a n ything within the building with good accuracy, but to alert subtly if an
o u t s i d e e v e n t (or two to cut fa lsing) were detected. A good sound card with m ultip le inputs would not likely be enough, though.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Arc welding
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Dear Friends,
Sorry for starting a new thread. Recently I have bought an arcwelder. But welding is a capability which IMHO a amateur
gunsmith must possess. That's the very reason I have started this.
However I don't know how to use that sucker. So I started googling arc welding tutorial and found this tutorial (http://
www.aussieweld.com.au/arcwelding/) and this (http://www.arconweld.com/welding_faq/welding_tutorial.htm) amongst the
others. However, I am unsure if it is really good or there is something better. Any ideas? And how do you do this operation?
Ropik January 10th, 2005, 04:00 AM

I have one friend which weld me anything I need for a few dollars. Also, he teach me how to use welder - and IMO this is the
best tutorial - find somebody experienced with it and let him teach you.

Ropik is right, if you can find someone to show you a few of the "tricks" to Arc Welding you'll be way ahead of the game. One
of the secrets is called "Stick Time" (the amount of time you spend welding). The more time you spend welding the better you
get and no amount of tutorials will replace actually welding. The tutorials will help with the basics but stick time makes you
good at it.
Get yourself about 5# of E6011 or E6013 rod and some 1/4" scrap steel plate and go at it. Weld flat at first, once your good at
that, then start welding "verticle" (6013 is good for that as it's a "Fast Freeze" rod). I hope you picked up an AC/DC Arc
Welder, some rods work better with DC and some work better with AC depending on what your doing. It's not "Hard" to learn, it
just takes "Time" to learn it. Good luck and have "Fun" with it. :p
tomu January 10th, 2005, 09:23 PM

The aussiworld site seems pretty good to me, I just browsed through it.
For you it's off to the scrape yard get yourself some old steel and practice, good welding skills come only through lots of
practice.
akinrog January 11th, 2005, 03:50 AM

My first attempt was quite a failure. :(
I am very grateful for your recommendations but I have no friend who can do arc welding. So I have to learn it by myself.
First and foremost, I cannot keep the electrode rod at the required distance when I hit the workpiece it starts arcing but I am
slow in removing it from the workpiece and it sticks and freezes on the workpiece. At first this scared me a lot since I thought
the machine shall blow up or burn my power installation. But there is a protection in the device it did not blow up or burn the
powe installation.
In addition, I have difficulty in seeing through the welding mask. I don't know but how I shall hit the electrode at the correct
place if I cannot see the very point I need to strike? If I remove the mask then the arc blinds me by creating a large and
bright after image in my eyes, thereby preventing (again) me from seeing the target point. However I must confess that I
started welding a serious workpiece at the beginning. I had a defective office chair whose defect was located at the hard-to-
reach point. As you recommend, I shall obtain some scrap metal and start welding it. And I am determined to learn it after
this age of mine.
festergrump January 11th, 2005, 11:16 AM

A great investment to go along with your welder is a self-darkening mask. They can get pretty expensive but are well worth it
IMO. I don't weld (yet) myself, but my brother has a mask like this. It's very easy to see thru when you aren't welding and
darkens immediately upon starting the arc.
[EDIT: Here's two links to a couple of good (and not very expensive) welding helmets on Harbor Freight: HERE (http://
www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91214) and HERE (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/
Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91212).]
I'm just speculating here, Akinrog, but if you have a problem with the rod sticking to the workpiece you more than likely don't
have the current set to the correct setting. Methinks you should crank it up a bit and bump it lightly against the piece a few
times. Once it starts to arc the rod should be able to be moved rather freely while arcing continuously. Too much juice and
you'll cut right through your workpiece, though. Just something to try out. Again, I am no welder but have messed around with
it at my bros house a few times.
There's a welding spray (I forgot what it's called) that you can get at Home Depot to make removal of spatter from around
your weld a much simpler deal, too, for use on work that needs to have a nice cosmetic appearance.
A welder has been on my wish list for some time, now. I'm jealous! :p :D

I've not done much arc welding, since I have yet to get it out of the box! However, I will tell you this, MIG is a lot better and
easier. Spot welding is most precise.
As Festergrump says, you need to bump the stick to strike the arc, but don't let it stick. It's more of a graze than a bump,
too. Keep it moveing is always key, with any welder type bar a spot welder.
If you can't see where the arc is striking, you can either get the fancy electronic sheilds, which are such a time saver it isn't
true, or you get get a lighter glass for your welding mask, or, and this seems to be the easiest way, drag everything out into
the sunshine, or use a really powerful spotlight, so you can see the work faintly through the glass before the arc strikes.
DON'T try looking at the arc. The UV does very nasty things! Wear thick gloves, and make sure your trousers won't let anything
get inside your shoes. Any spall is rather hot, and getting it in your socks (or anywhere) will burn a hole in them and you.
I'm going to be using mine to make an electric arc furnace. See http://www.popsci.com/popsci/how2/article/
0,20967,726308,00.html for details of how to melt Tungsten at home!

IIRC I was told by someone who used to teach welding, that the rod is more likely to stick if it is damp (atmospheric
moisture), and recommended drying them out in an oven for a bit.
I don't understand it, but from observation there does seem to be something in it. As once a rod that kept sticking has been
used for a few seconds and so heated up, it no longer sticks.
tomu January 11th, 2005, 06:39 PM

Try to strike the arc like you would strike/light a match. It's more like scratching the electrode in an oblique angle at the
workpiece not like tiping or hitting it.
Setting Amperage on your welder is diameter of the electrode multiplied by 40 - 45 Ampere. For example 3.2 mm electrode
the setting is betwenn 128 - 144 A, at the start I would set the welder to about 140 A, just experiment.
Good practice for the beginning is try to burn holes through your workpiece (piece of junk metal for practice of course) to get a
feeling how long it takes to burn through. After your proficient with that start to lay weld beads.
Dave the Rave January 12th, 2005, 03:46 PM

I found some nice links on the subject of welding like these online courses on electric welding and cutting (http://
www.millerwelds.com/education/etraining.html) with an nice except on MIG and gauss cutting. An good link to those who want
to understand electricity and with an small video on plasma gouging.
Check out also the PDF booklets section (http://www.millerwelds.com/education/bookspamphlets.html) and download some
files that will be soon avaliable on The Forum FTP, like the "welding & the world of metals" or "arc welding fundamentals"
Here you can learn how to strike and estabilish an arc (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/strikearc.asp)
and the arc welding fundamentals (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/arcweldfund.asp) and some
articles (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/list.asp) on an fully searchable database with some nice essays on
"how to" welding tips.
And speaking on MIG, here are the most elucidating sucesfull MIG technics (http://lametalsmiths.org/news/
successful_mig_techniques.htm)
And finaly some Links (http://www.millerwelds.com/education/welding_links/)

Dave,
Thank you very much for the links. It is really great find :).
At least I have learnt that my arc welder is a stick (aka SMAW) welder. During this weekend I shall start experimenting with it.
Currenly (and given my skill level at arc welding) I cannot invest in a gas shielded arc welder. They are quite expensive and
since I am a hobbyist, it is overkil, IMHO.
I don't know but my eqipment is supplied only with a crocodile (for holding the electrode) attached at the end of electrode
cable and ground (work piece) cable had no clamp or some other tool to attach to the workpiece. Even the ground cable's wires
were not exposed (I mean the cable's sheath was not stripped). The bastards also did not supply a power plug. (Only the cord
was present and no power plug) I had to install them by myself. I have stripped end of the ground (workpiece) cable and have
attached a meat hook to it.
However it is rather loose. I tried to crimp one end of the meat hook around the exposed wires but the bloody thing was really
though. Next time I start the welder this weekend I shall weld the cable to the meat hook first (thereby increasing the contact
between them). Or I might find a large spike (i.e. nail) and bend that to the shape since the spikes are more ductile and
softer than meat hooks. (As another alternative I may heat the meat hook to cheery red and allow it to cool thereby softening
it.)

It would be better to attach the "ground cable" to a steel "C" clamp rather than a "meat hook" or "spike".
Dave the Rave January 13th, 2005, 08:49 AM

Akinrog, the reason why the ground isnt striped is because on most workshops they solder the cable to an metalic table,
which sustains the piece on which one is working, thus the contact is more abrangent and safe, and the worker cam move
freely around the work.
For the same reason the power cable isnt equiped with an plug, because the workshopeers attaches it on an energy pannel,
not on an wall outlet. If the electrode freezes beyond human capacity of free it, it could, maybe, fry all the cables on the wall,
but if its directly connected on the main power pannel, it just burns the fusible or drops the disjunctor.
Anyway, Slyfox is rigth, for the sake of the homogeneity, could you make your own steel table to work on or just buy an nice
steel clamp and weld it on the ground cable, at least you have your arc welder !
Seriously, any bad contact on the ground cable will render on flaws or bubbles on the weld, which can be very dangerous.
Imagine an jetkart with an bad work on the junctions. Now, imagine that hot afterburner rigth behind your head, which is
roaring and figthing against its bubblous and not homogenious welds, which can break and let the engine fly thru your back.
Ouch, better buy that clamp...
tdog49 January 30th, 2005, 01:33 AM

Akinrog,
I am a journeyman welder, certified structually, pipe and railroad. I am also a certified pipefitter. I am also certifiably nuts (
just ask my wife) lol
I know that statement violates the "instant expert" rule....ah well I need some excitement anyway.....
Seriously,
the online tutorial you found looks fine. One of the best ways to get instruction is to take classes at your local community
college. NOT a trade school (they cost lots more). what you need to learn is:
1. how to set up the welder for stick size and composition and material size
2. how to run a bead, fillet , t joint and v groove
3. how to tell if your weld is good or not.
Tomu's advice is right on....

thats about it really, except that I definitely recommend a speed lens (auto darkening) it is the single biggest tool that will
speed up your learning curve.
Mainly by getting you past the "strike and stick" phase, because it lets you see what your doing. I have 3 myself.... all for
different purposes.
Anthony,
some fluxes aborb moisture and need to be kept dry to perform best. some do not.
MightyQuinn January 30th, 2005, 12:45 PM

What an excellent thread.
I am just getting to the point now where I can strike an arc without getting the stick stuck. Nothing was more frustrating when I
started out as getting the rod stuck, not being able to free it with a wrist snap and lifting the hood to find a rod completely on
fire, yikes.
I agree that tdog49 on these points:
1. how to set up the welder for stick size and composition and material size 2. how to run a bead, fillet , t joint and v groove 3.
how to tell if your weld is good or not.
Even a good welder can be slowed down by an improperly set up welder. For me, just learning the types and uses of rods is a
bit overwhelming. So too was the proper polarity, type of voltage and amount of current.
About auto-darkening helmets...If you are going to want it to last, you will have to be careful with it. If you want it to operate
perfectly every time, you are going to have to pay for it. I am on my 2nd one now, but have gotten some pointers from the
boys up in our weld shop. You can't really throw them around like a standard helmet. This tends to happen in the field for me.
I have gone back to using a standard helmet with quality lenses.
In my current line of work, I have a work truck. It just happens to have a cutting torch, welder and compressed air on it :D I
find myself out in the driveway on the weekends practicing on scrap steel (get that for free too.) I am not a good welder by
any stretch, but can verify that you will become more comfortable and better with practice.
I have gotten my best practise by volunteering to hard-face weld. In this process we use a hard-face rod to build up a layer (or
many) of side by side welds for wear protection. It's less critical than attaching 2 pieces of steel so there is more room for
error. It's great for practising striking and running strait, uniform beads.
tubes February 3rd, 2005, 07:03 AM

You can make a very good welder from an old car alternator and a 5HP electric (or gas) motor. You can get some very useable
and adjustable current out of it, see here (http://classicbroncos.com/homemade-welder.shtml).
FrankRizzo February 14th, 2005, 10:31 PM

You can also DIY one from reversing step-up transformers scavenged from old microwave ovens.
Instructions Here (http://www.dansworkshop.com/Homebuilt%20arc%20welder.shtml)
CommonScientist March 9th, 2005, 01:47 PM

Tomu - you set up the amperage to the metal your working with, amps = heat when welding.
A stick welder is not a proficient tool for an amateur gunsmith, as its weld qualities are primitive. A TIG is much better for that
as it is more acurate, but it takes more skill.


tomu March 10th, 2005, 02:08 PM

The right diameter of the electrode is related to the thickness of the metal to be welded. The amps are set, as a rule of
thump according to the diameter of the used /choosen welding rod (as stated in my post above, fine tuning and adjustment
have to be done of course. At least that is what I've learned and what is tought by the german weldors association. With a
buzz box only steel is welded in normal circumstances.
I agree with you that TIG is a far better choice for gunsmithing as is oxy-acetylen welding. Also soldering and brazing are
extensivly used by gunsmith.



Auto-darkening helmets are brilliant.
Just treat them as safety equipment, as you should, and you will be fine. Unless it gets really cold, in which case the LCD slows
down, and you get a bit more flash than you wanted!


pfred1 December 6th, 2006, 01:06 PM

Do you have or have you used a TIG welder? Personally I find them a bit easier to use than stick welders. TIG welders take
more money that is for sure but more skill? Then again calling a stick welder primitive to me at least displays a lack of basic
welding knowledge right there. Steam fitting is often done with the "primitive" SMAW process, and it is X-Rayed for defects too!
Some people in this thread seem to know what they are talking about but there seems to be a fair amount of misinformation
flying around here too. BTW to the guy who thinks MIG welding is so wonderful, here's my quote for that process, whenever I
break out my MIG welder my motto is, frig it I'll MIG it! It is not the best welding process by a long shot. Personally I'd put it
at the bottom for quality and penetration. Though it is used heavily in industry because once the process is dialed in it is fast
and cheap.
I own a full set of Smiths oxy-acetylene euipment, a MIG welder, a stick welder, and a TIG welder, and I have been welding
now for over 25 years. Each tool and process has its place. One of these days I have to get my hands on a laser for welding,
just to round out my collection.
As far as reading books for welding information, I do every chance I get. Whatever is known about welding is recorded in
printed materials. There is surely more knowledge contained in the full body of works than any one individual knows about the
topic. And no matter how much one may think they know about welding I am sure there is still something else to be learned
about the process. It is that involved after all. Just weld for NASA with some beady eyed guy peering over your shoulder while
you are running your bead. Even the rocket science boys weigh in heavily on the topic of welding!
I will close with a few tips I always give new welders, work clean, and prepare your joints accurately. This gives you the best
possible chance for success. Inclusion contamination is the number one cause of failure afaik. Oh and do get an angle
grinder, it is like the American Express card of welding. Don't weld without one! Oh yeah the auto darkening hoods are nice. I
have an Optrel. A cheaper way to go is having two 500 watt quartz halogen lights illuminating your work area. You can even
see what is going on through a #14 shade with that.
Welding misinformation is one of my hot button topics I am afraid. Sometimes is is better to remain silent and be thought a
fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

I knew a guy who could weld a cut-in-half soda can back together by the edges, with any welding rig (gas/TIG/etc), and have it
be watertight! :)
Came from decades of experience in aerospace.
Just like with guns, the skill of the user rarely exceeds the capabililty of the tool.
Doug January 10th, 2007, 08:30 PM

I have one small tip - make sure there's nothing in your working area that is at all flammable - arc welders tend to fling red
hot slag all over the place.
I remember one time using one on a bench at work, not checking what else was on the bench properly, and when I flipped my
mask up to examine my handiwork, the whole bench was on fire from a pot of white spirit someone had left out after earlier
painting - I hadn't got a clue because I couldn't see it through the mask...

syfilius - A little bit of a difference between and oxy torch and a spirits fire.
Its hard to see a methanol fire NORMALLY so not seeing a white spirit fire through a tinted welding mask (assumed as he was
flipping it up to look at his work) isn't really that shocking...
InfernoMDM January 11th, 2007, 07:29 AM

Thanks for all the helpful info.
Gunjack January 12th, 2007, 06:01 PM

Some tips to start practising:
use your grinder on scrap metal pieces to get the rust, paint or other protective coating off, some coatings aren't meant to be
welded through.
Also take a good look at the sticks you bought for welding, some sticks cant be used at certain angels.
With a arc welder you have to draw your weld to yourself wile holding your stick at an angle.
Protect all skin from the light , it will burn you badly and you'll notice it to late.
stupid939 March 30th, 2007, 11:34 PM

I did not want to start a new thread to release this information, and this is the only thread that it is closely related to.
I came across this material a few months ago when I used it on a welding project for which I had to make support structures.
It has a low melting point (732F) and it can be melted with a propane, mapp, or oxy-acetylene torches. It can be used on
most non-ferrous metals (excluding stainless steel) and you can even join different non-ferrous metals together.
I was told that it could only be purchased from Durafix, but I have found it under different names at places like hardware
stores and Harbor Freight Tools. It goes under names like "Alumiweld Rods" and "HTS 2000". I noticed that they have
something that looks like oxidation on one side and they look like they were cut off with a bandsaw. This is how I determined
that the different companies are selling the same product (I did not want to buy a rip off after I used the "original").
They come in 1/8" diameter, 18" long rods and usually contain 8 per pack, and they usually run around $11-13 for the 8 pack.
In my experience it is very easy to use, and if you prep the materials first it works best. You are supposed to use a stainless
steel brush so that it does not become contaminated, and then tin the surface before you apply the bead, fill the hole, or
whatever. If you do not prep the surface well enough the bead tends to just release and you have to prep it and restart.
The only problem that I have encountered is that it is a little hard to file, drill, and machine. It seems to be harder than any of
the parent metals yet it has about the same tensile strength as aluminum.
Here are some links advertising this "*LOW COST *STRONGER THAN ALUMINUM *NO FLUXES OR FUMES *LOW WORKING
TEMPERATURE" material. Take a look at the videos and look at the size of the holes that they fill in.
http://durafix.com/
http://www.aluminumrepair.com/aluminum_repair.asp
http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItemList.do
I mainly wanted to share this for those who don't like welding aluminum, but I am curious about its composition. I found
several patents on fluxless aluminum brazing, and I am pretty certain that it is mainly an aluminum and magnesium alloy.
What do you guys think?
nbk2000 March 31st, 2007, 02:00 AM

I am pretty certain that it is mainly an aluminum and magnesium alloy.
If it's a magnalum alloy, it sounds good for use in making exothermic cutting rods. :)
stupid939 March 31st, 2007, 04:22 AM

It would be nice to use as a cutting rod. Maybe I'll test a piece with my arc welder. ;)
Most of the patents that I have found while searching for "Aluminum Brazing" tend to list rare and uncommon metals, and the
melting point tends to be above 1000F.
The closest thing I found was patent #3356494. It has a melting temperature of 818F, and the closest percentages would be
around 75% Aluminum and 25% Magnesium. I just thought magnesium was a fairly soft metal and wasn't very hard to file,
cut, etc. This is why I dismissed the idea that it would be solely a magnalium alloy.
209 March 31st, 2007, 12:56 PM

Try your best not to run welds on aluminum. It can give off toxic fumes like zinc coated materials. Often you will need a
special stick to weld aluminum, like an aluminum rod :) .
If you are using a MIG and you are going to be doing a lot of aluminum welding that it may be a good idea to buy a spool
gun. these can get a bit pricy but it may be worth it. often aluminum wire will missfeed in the hose, its a real pain in the ass to
get it refed.
If your gas welding, you really dont need a filler rod, a fusion weld can be just as strong if your a good welder.
My first arc welding experience was terrible, I am all self taught and am a good welder now, but you should have seen some of
my first beads!:D
stupid939 March 31st, 2007, 02:16 PM

I was kidding about using it for a cutting rod in the arc welder because NBK said that it would make a nice exothermic cutting
rod. If you did try to use it that way, because of its composition, you may get a large shower of white sparks that burn for
quite a bit. At least that is the way that I interpreted NBK's post.
I have used aluminum in my mig, and like you said, it is supposed to wear off in the liner and mess it up. I bought another
liner and use that when I do aluminum welding (which I suck at), and I haven't had any problems yet.
TORCHed April 7th, 2007, 05:08 AM

In my field, I only see Arc Welding being used for large welding jobs. I have a small arc welder which I frequently used for
automotive purposes. The arc I use was very cheap, but allowed me to complete many exhaust manifolds, up-pipes, and
down-pipes.
The slight of hand is key when using an arc welder (especially the cheap one I had for starters). Moving too fast to the items
you are trying to weld will result in you stopping the current, and heating up the rod (the rod gets stuck, and you have to snap
it off quickly before the flux burns off making it useless). If making a weld on a circular tube to another tube/item, you need
to slowly pull away in order to create a proper and steady bead WITHOUT burning through or warping the tubing.
I currently use a MIG welder for my automotive uses. It is much easier to use than an Arc, that is for sure! Hell, I used it today
to weld shut smog inlets on my friends car! The gas assisted MIGs are even greater, and far easier to use or such
applications.
Now if you are looking for the ultimate, and cleanest weld possible (as stated below)... you are looking for a TIG welder. Plan
on paying a decent penny for one of these, but they are worth every penny!
I plan on buying a Plasma Cutter though! I like to buy and chop cars for parts. This would be a great tool needed for the long
and annoying task of cutting up a car using a Saws-All.
Kaydon April 7th, 2007, 09:39 PM
TIG Is by far the best. Stick is garbage.
MIG, it's good and easy to learn. TIG makes the cleanest welds, if you're good. It's hard to learn.
I almost exclusively TIG weld, I use MIG for bullshit welding that I don't care about much.
Whatever you do, get a 220v welder. Lincoln Pro MIG 180 is a good starter, or Hobart 180. Hobart and Miller guns are
interchangeable too, as they're both made in the same factory.
PYRO500 April 23rd, 2007, 03:40 AM

Stick welding is not always garbage, if you have to do any welding in anything more than just a slight breeze, or on thick
material, or out in the field on something you have no control over the orientation of the material, then it can be very handy
to know how to do it correctly. You just need to learn to chip slag and not bury the old slag in a new pass of filler metal (when
will people learn, chip after every pass) I find it easier to burn through rust and paint with a stick welder than with mig, and
forget about tig welding on anything except ultra clean prepared surfaces. As far as MIG goes, don't confuse mig with FCAW
witch uses a similar setup as mig but with flux cored wire that creates its own shielding gas. FCAW does work in the wind where
mig can't shield the surface at any reasonable gas flow rate, but the welds usually turn out pretty ugly, and it throws this white/
brown slag crap all over your work witch needs to be removed afterwards, or before a second pass if you are gap filling.
I agree for gunsmithing, TIG is definitely the way to go as well as trying to get a foot pedal current controlled tig with high
frequency AC capability.
When I took my welding classes it was required that anyone who took TIG welding be very proficient in oxy acetylene welding
as it teaches you how to work with one hand on the torch and the other manually feeding the filler rod.
Unlike stick, with TIG if you accidentally bump the tungsten into your work you will contaminate the tungsten and screw up your
electrode's shape necessitating that you disassemble the torch head, remove the tungsten and spend some quality time with
the bench grinder.
Unsunghero July 29th, 2007, 04:58 AM

Well something extremely basic that I only saw one person graze over. You said you were having trouble with the electrode
"sticking", personally I used the 6013 electrode starting out and it tends to stick the least on a flat plane. My advice to you
with that is instead of striking it across or tapping it, make it the beginning of your motion to weld. Basically strike and start in
the same motion and it won't stick as much, I'm quiet an ameteur at it, but that just means I know the beginner problems :p.
Ofortuna July 29th, 2007, 06:35 AM

I taught myself how to weld when I was younger, but hadn't welded in about a decade. As part of the college degree(s) I'm
getting, I took a quarter of welding. 8 hours a day for 3 months.
Wow, I learned a lot.
Can't see? Try using a couple shades lighter lens in your hood. The glass / the shading protects you from the really bad UV
rays. A little bit lighter will offer as much protection from UV, a little less from IR, which while fatiguing, won't do permanent
damage to your eyes. Also try pointing a halogen work light at the weld!
The Harbor freight auto darkening helmets (I tried 3 before I gave up) all seem to be about 5 shades darker than they claim,
I couldn't see a doggone thing.
As far as starting the weld, A lot of my fellow students were having troubles with this. The instructor had them practice holding
the rod about a 1/16" from the metal & moving it along in a straight line, with the power OFF.
Then you can turn it on & try the real thing. bang the end of the rod straight down on something solid, to bust off the first 1/8"
of flux. Then clamp it in your rod holder, just bring it in close, like you're going to have it a 1/16" maybe a little closer, control
it, it'll pull just a bit as the arc starts, easy now, pull it back just a hair. Now weave it back & forth about a 1/4" side to side as
you walk it forward.
I would suggest you start with a clean flat piece of 3/16" or 1/4" plate about 2" X 5" Don't try to weld 2 pieces together yet,
just practice surface beads. When you get the hang of it, try a joint. Try 70-90 Amps with 3/32" rod or 85-115 with 1/8"
Practice, Practice, Practice!
As a practice project, after you can reliably start & run a bead, take a 6" X 6" piece of 1/4" plate & make a 1" long bead at
50A, the 55A, then 60A & etc, all the way up to as high as you can. Did you say you were using 6010/6011? Turn it over & do
the same with some 7018 - pretty! 7018 is a lot easier to weld with/ prettier, but doesn't have any where near the penetration/
strength.
Teaches you to recognize when you're messin' up & which way to go to fix it.
MIG welding: There's actually several kinds of MIG welding.

Most hobby MIGs do the flux cored which can be pretty crappy.
The better ones do Gas shielded, which is better.
I had a go with using flux cored wire WITH a gas shield - BEAUTIFUL!
The above processes, especially with a hobby MIG, are done with "short circuit transfer"
Then there is "Pulsed arc" & "Spray Transfer" These both give WAY more penetration, without cooking the gun or the work.
Also a whole lot less spatter.
With Spray transfer, you use 95/5 ar/ox gas, DCEP polarity & about double the amperage you'd expect.
With Pulsed arc, you need a special control head that plugs into most professional machines. It allows you to set the duration
of the pulse, the duration of the off time, the wave attack angle & the frequency.
TIG welding: I'd never done this before. Kind reminded me of trying to pat my head & rub my stomach & chew gum at the
same time - on one foot.
Makes some pretty welds, though. I think it's the only acceptable way to weld some metals, like monel.

All three welding processes talked about in this thread will provide fine joinery; it really comes down to application.
SMAW, stick/ ARC welding is commonly used in structural applications, beams columns and base plates.
GMAW, MIG is found mostly in mass production environments.
GTAW, TIG is used in many applications from the thinnest gauge metals to root passes on large dia. High pressure pipes, it
also has the capability to fuse metals together without the use of filler materials.
Here is a link to miller motor sports; there is a wealth of information for new and expert welders.
http://www.millermotorsports.com/mboard/forumdisplay.php?f=3
totenkov October 14th, 2007, 02:57 PM

I think its good to point out that gas welding is still excellent for welding all materials at various thicknesses.
I have an Oxy-acetylene rig that has served me very well for the last 8 years. I also have an arc, but would prefer the gas any
day over it. to fill up both acetylene and oxygen it costs me 122 bucks and the tanks last me about 6 months. With a little
practice you can create superb welds and actually enjoy doing it. With arc, all you see is this little flickering light between the
electrode and the base. Same with TIG and MIG.
Gas, you can actually see what your doing and can weld practically any metal (I would stay away from silver with acetylene
though :p) and you can cut. All in all an excellent package at half the price of an Arc! (an good arc machine AC/DC will run you
up about 450-500 bucks) A good quality TIG or MIG and your already in the thousands. With gas you will need tons of
practice, but you can turn out a weld on Stainless steel just as well as a $9000 Tig machine.
Beelzebub October 15th, 2007, 02:24 AM

A good quality TIG or MIG and your already in the thousands.
Sorry mate...don't believe it costs an arm and a leg to TIG. You can TIG off of any DC machine, doesn't have to be a big
expensive one with built in hi-freq, hot start, and all the other goodies. Miller makes a nice little portable 115V DC TIG called
the Maxstar 150 (5-150A) that's perfect for the home tinkerer or gunsmither. As long as you're not welding aluminum and
keep your metal thickness reasonable, this will weld carbon/stainless steels, inconel, chrome-moly, etc for about $600 new.
I've used one and for the money it's a nice machine! For $9000, it ought to weld for me! :D
totenkov October 15th, 2007, 11:03 AM

$600 for a TIG? :confused: Well you get what you pay for.
Kaydon October 16th, 2007, 01:48 PM

Sorry, but you won't weld thick metals in a single pass with a 115V machine. Even if you bevel the edges, you'll still have poor
penetration. I weld from thicknesses of 1/8" to 1/2" with my Miller 252. I weld everything hot too, guaranteed to get proper
penetration, unless I'm welding aluminum then I turn it down - and I never use a spool gun.
I build truck frames, 4 link suspensions, trailers, and anything else I need doing. I weld for myself or friends, not in the
business or anything. I use German steel.

I agree that the difference between the flux cored wire MIG systems and true MIG is like night and day. I thought my welding
was crap, until I switched to a "proper" MIG, and the welds were absolutely perfect, second try!
However, the welds I got from my fake MIG were good welds, they just look like shit, and required a lot of clean-up. Works on
stainless too, if not very pretty.
I've got an arc welder, but I've never even turned it on.
I also do some forgework, on a homemade forge I posted about ages back, and have done forge welding, but believe me,
you are better off using a MIG.
I've also used a spot welder, which is basically a shorted high current transformer which clamps over the metal parts, and
heats them while squashing them together until the points melt and weld.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Definitive Auto Alarm..
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View Full Version : Definitive Auto Alarm..
Nevermore January 30th, 2005, 02:30 PM

I am buying a new car, and now i've the problem of putting a good alarm to avoid thieves from stealing it.
Since all the commercial alarms are crap (the thieves already know how to disable them and don't take more than 5 mins) and since i can't count on the immobilizer, i was
thinking about building a custom alarm out from commercial equipments.
I was thinking about using a transponder device as key (those are easily found as upgrade for home alarm and they work at 12V) this w ill grant me full access to the car by
getting in a 1 meter radius from the transponder, and as for the "alarm" device i was thinking about using a GSM combinator with the following features:
The alarm should be triggered when the car is opened and the transponder is not in range, must be triggered when the car turns on w/o transponder being in range, and must
be triggered w hen the brake pedal is pressed.
Everything must be silent, the GSM should send a call to my cell phone and revert it to the audio amplifier so that i could talk and be heard by the speakers, the gsm should be
able to accept DTMF codes that i could send from my cell phoned with the following features:
1) turning off the engine
2) horning like hell
3) opening an electro-actuated valve
So in case i get an alarm call that some fool is stealing my new car i could:
get control of the speaker and talk to the fool advicing him is better to stops and leave the car ASAP.
In case he is a big fool and is still inside,

turn off the engine in the middle of the street and put the car on horn..
in case he is VERY big fool that still tries to steal (i can hear by the microphone installed in the car) i would tell i am opening the cyanide tank then open the valve of the canister
via DTMF that should disperse an irritant agent inside the car, so doing the asshole should sw ift out and disperse himself.
BUT:
which agent should i use that is very volative, doesn't leave nasty smells,or corrodes plastic, plus is easy to manifacture?
I was thinking about chloroacetone or bromoacetone, but i am not sure they won't eat up my car interiors, plus i can't still figure out an efficient dispersion system..
The agent shouldn't be deadly since i don't want to end up w ith a stupid asshole dead in my car (this arises problems over here, like, where should i trash, etc)
The agent shouldn't make him puke or shit or piss himself since i prefer my car keeps clean.
Any ideas?
:D

And gassing someone by remote control would be legal, w ould it?
Might I suggest using something pungent, like lemon oil or almond oil, w hich would scare the crap out of the intruder - after all, if you have been mental enough to fit this
tricked out system in your car, you might well be enough of a loon to kill someone for it!
Onion juice would be good, too. Can't drive for tears!

Onion Juice wouldn't get out of the car for a long time. The average car thief doesn't know what HCN is, let alone what it smells like so almond juice would be a no-no. A fine
spray of something with a "chemically" smell would be much better. The mist needs to be visible, the goal is to scare them off and if they see strange mist coming for them and
your on the speaker telling them that they have 5 seconds to get out of the car before they asphyxiate my guess is they will get out mighty quick.
A problem I see is that most car thefts occur at night, are you that light of a sleeper?
Silentnite January 30th, 2005, 03:42 PM

What about some items from Firequest (www .firequest.com) ???
The stink bomb stuff, Vomit fluid injected via syringe into some kind of drink, or the evacuator. I personally think the evacuator one would be better, nothing like getting
arrested with your pants full...
Or liquid roadkill or unnatural gas.
I think the drink one is the best idea. Just make it look like it hasn't been opened. :D

What about some items from Firequest (www .firequest.com) ???
The stink bomb stuff, Vomit fluid injected via syringe into some kind of drink, or the evacuator. I personally think the evacuator one would be better, nothing like getting
arrested with your pants full...
Or liquid roadkill or unnatural gas.
I think the drink one is the best idea. Just make it look like it hasn't been opened. :D
you definitely got what i am looking for

i need something that scare them up to death and make them run like hell, but volatile enuf that i don't stink my car forever.
Beside that, something that is not just smell is preferrable, something non toxic that gives severe discomfort..
:D
@knowledgehungry
at night i can store my car in garage, most of times the thieves steal when u go to pub or take a pizza..that time i will be WELL awake.

And gassing someone by remote control would be legal, w ould it?
Might I suggest using something pungent, like lemon oil or almond oil, w hich would scare the crap out of the intruder - after all, if you have been mental enough to fit this
tricked out system in your car, you might well be enough of a loon to kill someone for it!
Onion juice would be good, too. Can't drive for tears!
Gassing someone by remote is not legal, but i suppose he won't claim that at the police!
That's why i am gonna use something non toxic that doesn't let him drive anymore and scare him to hell.
If it was not so persistent capsicum w ould be the best..
BTW i dunno w here u live, but NO ONE w ould be scared by lemon oil, even less by almond oil, maybe i could scare some children..maybe.. :eek:
:D

BTW i dunno w here u live, but NO ONE w ould be scared by lemon oil, even less by almond oil, maybe i could scare some children..maybe..
Hydrogen Cyanide smells like almond oil, if something started spraying shit at me that smelled like almonds I'd be scared as shit.
EDIT: That website has some cool stuff, look at the specialty ammo :D /
nbk2000 January 30th, 2005, 09:59 PM

They run out the car after smelling the stink of almond oil, then proceed to smash the shit out of it because they can't steal it. :)
After paying $500 insurance deductable to have all the w indows and body panels replaced, you w in! :rolleyes:
A little bit of chloropicrin dissolved in alcohol will do the trick and leave them crying and gasping for an hour. :) By which time they're either gone or caught, never having had
time to even think about smashing your car up.
Air it out for a day, and you're good to go. :D
Jacks Complete February 1st, 2005, 04:27 PM

NBK, the odds are they wouldn't stand there and draw that much attention to themselves. They think they have been sprayed w ith Cyanide. They are going to be calling the
police, and an ambulance.
The chloropicrin would be good, since it dissipates quite quickly, and acts quite fast. Chloroform w ould work too, either knocking them out, and giving them a hell of a hangover,
or forcing them to leave the car.
Nevermore, a spray of lemon oil all over your face wouldn't affect you? You must have damned thick skin, then. Almost any essential oil will give a headache, and cause burns
to the skin. Sure you aren't thinking of lemon *juice*? (even lemon juice would sting your eyes like buggery, though!) The point is that it is legal, it isn't going to kill *you* if
you mess up and leave the system armed, but to the thief, the voice is telling you you are going to die, your eyes are watering, shit is all over the place... No-one is going to sit
and w ait to see if the oil that is stinging them is actually lethal or not!
KnowledgeHungry got the right idea for the almond oil...
Anyway, in the UK, just phoning the guy and threatening to hurt him if he doesn't leave the car is reason to get arrested, so I wouldn't w ant a system like this. In the UK, if you
take the rear plate off your car, then it gets stolen, *you* can get done for having a car that isn't road legal, even though it has been stolen! Go figure!
What you could do, is use a smoke bomb. Simulate an engine fire, and then cut the fuel off. Car is w orthless, they don't know they have been duped, they run before the car
explodes (not that they do) In fact, you put a mole smoke under the hood w ith a wire wrapped round it, and a switch to it, in line w ith the ignition. Anyone who starts the car
without turning off the switch heats the mole smoke, and the smoke starts coming off. To make it more realistic, put some form of time delay in before it goes off.
They have to leave eventually, since mole smokes kill the mole, they aren't nice!
DirtyDan February 1st, 2005, 07:05 PM

You might want to be careful that you don't make your unwanted driver too uncomfortable if he is already driving and something goes wrong with your alarm; totalling the car
is not the goal here :) . Some good old commercial capsaicin (pepper spray) would be just as effective also, although I guess w e are discussing mostly home synth gasses.
MightyQuinn February 1st, 2005, 07:07 PM

I was thinking about a cellular operated microswitch behind the glove box. Have that microswitch cut the pow er wire to the car's ECU. This w ould result in a total shutdown of
the vehicle. You can crank it all you w ant, it's dead.
No car to steal, no need for fragrant oils or powerful potions - just one pissed off jig with his dick and a dead car in his hand.
From here you proceed to NBK's thought of it getting trashed a little - deductible - you win
Silentnite February 2nd, 2005, 12:16 AM

If your working on the entire Disable thing, or even the spray, couldn't you put a pen camera in the steering wheel to take a picture of the jerk?
It w ould seem pretty easy to wire it so it only took a picture w hen it was opened without a key.
Nevermore February 2nd, 2005, 05:28 AM

Anyway, in the UK, just phoning the guy and threatening to hurt him if he doesn't leave the car is reason to get arrested, so I wouldn't w ant a system like this. In the UK, if you
take the rear plate off your car, then it gets stolen, *you* can get done for having a car that isn't road legal, even though it has been stolen! Go figure!
i think is something alike here too..

is so shit this country, they think about protecting the thieves more than the others..
the police is sleeping all day long and you can't even protect yourself..
I should gas the police not the thieves, is them that are not doing their w ork..
:mad:
Jacks Complete February 2nd, 2005, 08:25 PM

DirtyDan, you contradicted yourself.
Capsicum will almost certainly cause them to crash.
Don't be a fool.
MightyQuin(tm), using a cellphone is probably an issue. You would have trouble getting one that didn't run on a contract, or require money put on it even so often. The only
way around that I can think of, would be to get a phone that had a long time before deletion. You w ould have to enquire w ith the provider. I have seen boxes sold for this
purpose, but they cost far more than a cheap mobile, but they are w ired to switches and relays and things.
Realistically, you could make a fortune selling a GSM mobile controlled box that you could run via a SIM card of your choice, and a mobile phone. Anyone ever seen anything
like it?
Nevermore, gassing the cops might bring some heat down on you. Might I suggest discression as being the better part of valour?
Nevermore February 3rd, 2005, 05:10 AM

Well here GSM alarm devices are sold easily, they don't cost more than normal phone, use a prepaid card that requires to be recharged once a year..
not too bad..
GSM devices for house alarms are commercial here, not yet for cars
Valinomycin February 3rd, 2005, 08:37 AM

I searched a little bit and found a gsm transmitter that only needs a active sim card. It's got 2 inputs and sends you an sms if activated. You can control the 2 tw o outputs of the
transmitter via sms . The only draw back is it cos ts 200 w ithout a sim card :(
the shop i found it is w ww.conrad.de (it's in german search for TELEMETRIEMODUL)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Firing box / launch controller for sale
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View Full Version : Firing box / launch controller for sale
HVD March 13th, 2005, 11:10 AM

There is a very well constructed dual channel constant voltage firing box / launch controller that I constructed, which is now for sale on ebay. If any of you are interested then
feel free to bid or make me an offer.
Firing box (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5963133018)
Cheers,
HVD.

Cheers,
HVD.

Cheers,
HVD.
tmp March 13th, 2005, 11:18 AM

You may have broken the rules about offering something for sale on this
site. That will be up to the MODS to decide.



Depends.... Kinda. Is it a decent box? Do you plan to provide plans for the rest of the forum?
While I think maybe this would have been a better thread in the water cooler. Its not terrible. Beyond the fact that unless you used a fake name for E-bay I could now find out
where you live. Anonymity or not?
But as has been said before: Let the M(g)ODS decide.
EDIT: It does look kinda cool though.


Boomer March 13th, 2005, 02:43 PM

Wanted to say the same. He MAY have broken ... - if he sells it for a special price (no big profit) to forumites, it may be OK (guessed from NBK's comment on my question
about selling the VoD- meter which is currently under development), but it would have been better to ask before!
BTW be careful HVD, you might get in trouble for helping someone commit a crime - that is why I left out a triggering relay on my device, even if it would have been easy to
incorporate. I wanted it to be a *measuring instrument* - no way to abuse it for a terrorist :)


HVD March 13th, 2005, 07:36 PM

Well, I've marketed it pretty much as a rocket launcher which is exactly what it is ... i've seen estes beam controllers and working ww2 blasting units for sale before on ebay,
so i figured there wouldn't be any problems.
Anonyminity ... well, I'll leave that up to you.
Forum rules being broken - it hadn't occured to me as this is in the T.T.P. forum and i thought a specialist piece of equipment, pre built, might be of value to someone here. I'll
happily provide the plans, but the electronics are so simple the inherant "value" of the box comes from the very high quality construction. I posted the complete plans for my
high voltage unit some time ago, along with a discussion of exactly how it worked. It should still be in the archives somewhere.
It's up to the mods, if you feel this is a bad post then of course you will remove it, but i thought it in the best interests of the forum to let people know about the item.
I have no idea what the box is "worth" ... there is no reserve price, so it'll go for whatever it goes for .



I think it's great. Anyone on here should be able to do this, if they are making it for a forum purpose and they are making it themselves.
Obviously, anyone selling information is going to get trouble, since we share that free.
Anyone reselling stuff is likely to get told off for trying to profit like that too, since they can sell to non-forum members at full price.
Selling something illegal would be very, very silly, and rightly get you banned. None of us wants a sting operation.
But this is none of the above. It is passed via a public place, in the form of ebay, so the buyer may know the sellers address, but the seller has no idea if the buyer is a
forumite or one of the millions of ebayers out there, let alone which forumite.
And boy, doesn't it look cool!
Edit: I would have started a new account, though. Perhaps a little too much can be guessed from items traded recently, location info, email, paypal, etc.



I don't mind... it's for sale on ebay, not here, and it's not a commercial entity selling crap.


cyclonite4 March 14th, 2005, 01:47 AM

That seems like something that could be made cheaply and easily, but the price is pretty good (I assume AUD is about twice the price compared to UK?).
I'd buy it, but I live a walk-away from a well stocked electronics supplier (which I get a 15% discount from :) ), and I can't be bothered with paying mailing fees and all that.
None the less, it looks fairly cool. I was once a model rocket hobbyist myself, and I made one with one of thos missile-style flip cover switches (the switch was the most
expensive component). :cool:
Hope you get a bid on it soon. ;)



The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > modifying lasers?
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View Full Version : modifying lasers?
peedonurpoptart March 26th, 2005, 06:31 PM

how would one go about "modifying" an ordinary 5mW laser, green or red, to output a more powerful beam? I have heard
things as simple as prying off the power switch and screwing a screw over a little, to things as complicated as taking the laser
apart and adding lenses. Does anyone have any information on this?



Using just a higher power input may rise a very little your beam.
But for a powerful beam you need to change the cristal (which is here doped glass) to a bigger one, have lenses that are more
precise.
Don't dream you can't make a weapon with your pen.

precise.

precise.
aikon April 19th, 2005, 05:06 PM

Modifying a simple 5 mW handheld device is not an option, because it wouldn't last long. Go to http://www.laserglow.com/
handheld.html
This company sells more powerful handheld laser devices, but they aren't cheap.

handheld.html

handheld.html
akinrog April 19th, 2005, 10:32 PM

If you want something more powerful then you may use the ordinary semiconductor lasers to pump larger ones.
As other members pointed out, I don't think increasing power input of a semiconductor shall do no good (due to heat up) to
the laser neither it shall increase significantly its power output.


grendel23 April 20th, 2005, 06:33 AM

I have a Leadlight green DPSS laser pointer which puts out 35mw. I replaced a resistor and adjusted a pot to get that output.
I also have an argon ion laser that will put out over 2 watts, once a put together a power supply that will supply 220 volts DC at
30A.

30A.

30A.
Marvin April 20th, 2005, 03:38 PM

What was the DPSS rated for when bought and how long are you expecting the pump laser to last at the new power level?
Ive heard about these but have no idea what they be pushed to before lifespan becomes very short.


FUTI April 20th, 2005, 05:05 PM

This is something I thought about but never had time to research. I asumed also that busting laser output will reduce lifetime,
but I have a question. Can use of shorter pulses extend lifetime/counteract with expected overheating/degrading of laser? I
want to modify one of those laser pointer pen so if anyone have some experience with that please send me a PM.


James April 20th, 2005, 06:23 PM

I don't suppose you could put a peltier cooler on the back to help it keep cool. Mybe a heatsink.


malzraa April 20th, 2005, 08:35 PM

Yeah, a regular laser diode would not increase output with input power, it would just fry.


LOL. Ok, time for some actual useful data for you guys.
There are two types of laser pen, currently. Red and green.
Red (whatever the actual frequency, it is normally from 670 to 635, duller to brighter) is directly from a semiconductor laser.
Green is from an IR laser that passes through a doubler chip then an IR filter, and has the wavelength halved. These output
at about 535nm.
The longer the wavelength, the easier it is to get a laser to lase. This means that IR is easier than red lasers are easier than
green, and blue is not yet possible with a useable lifetime. UV is impossible. This is a fundamental law of physics - in "big"
lasers, UV lasers are rare, and the x-ray lasers of starwars are still just dreams.
Anyway, there are various types of diode lasers in use. Most red diodes will not go above ten mW regardless of what you do.
The green lasers aren't so fussy, as they are actually IR, and can be pumped harder (more current) without overheating the
laseing junction, because it is (much) easier to get an IR photon than a red photon, and therefore the efficiency is higher.
So we take our green laser pen apart, and we tweak it. Now, most of the diodes are de-rated, since 5mW is the most
considered safe. As with everything, however, there are a range of values. Some of the lasers are very efficient, and lase at
the required power at 5% of the nominal current. Others require 50 or even 100% of the maximum rated current to get the
right power output. Those that require 101% get tuned to a lower power, and get sold as 1mW laser pens.
Now, we take the pen, and we tune it such that the current (which is the limiting factor) is just a fraction below the maximum
rating (being careful not to exceed the maximum gate voltage). We have to be very careful, since ESD will kill the bare diode
instantly, as will a negative gate voltage or an overcurrent condition. This may increase the power by a few percent in some
cases, or let you run it at nearly 50mW (like one of mine). It is, I think, a Normal distribution.
Sony make the best diodes, and these have the highest tuning potential, however, it is impossible to know before you try what
your max power out will be.
Now, nothing comes for free. Higher current draw due to increased gate voltage means a (potentially much) shorter battery
lifetime, and, due to the way laser diodes work, a reduced laser lifetime.
Diode lasers go down in power over their lifetime. One of my old red 670nm 5mW lasers is now barely visible. The damage
mechanism is cumulative, and works as follows:
When power is applied, the lifetime of the junction is reduced by one half for every ten degrees C warmer it gets.
A laser with a lifetime of 100 hours at 0 (above ambient) drops to just 25 hours at 20 degrees C. Pumping the maximum
current you can get away with through the gate means it gets pretty warm. You can feel that the pen I have gets warm to the
touch, and, since the body of the pen is the aluminium heat sink, this is obviously dramatically reducing the diode lifetime. If
it gets to 40 degrees, your lifetime is down to just 6 hours.
Stepping the power back down after a time will slow the damage rate, but the damage done is done - you don't get any time
back - so after 5 hours at 40 degrees you have 1 hour left. Drop the power back so it runs cold again, and you have 1/6th of
the lifetime at 0, which is 100 hours/6 = 16 hours left. As a typical example, a Sony CD laser runs at 70 degrees and outputs
25mW optical. The typical lifetime is 1000 hours.
Other main factors are: thermal shock (rare in a mounted diode) and physical shock (try not to drop it)
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/tec/catalog/pdf/laser_2.pdf gives lots of general detail about the Sony diodes. http://
www.eio.com/repairfaq/sam/laserdio.htm is the Sam's LASER FAQ for semiconductor lasers - he's really good at this stuff, and
there is tons of info.
As for laser safety, read up on it. Retina damage isn't funny. Yes, it's a cool light sabre, you can point at stars and mountains,
but more than likely you will shine it through a window and hit your own eye with 10% of that beam, or hit a mirror then your
face for 90%.
Yes, you can damage your eyes for a long time, even forever. And that's a very long time. Pull one on someone and they will
get very pissed off, and they won't go blind for a few hours, probably, by which time you are in jail or stabbed/beaten to a
pulp.
Possession of a wrongly labelled laser is an offence in the UK, so re-label yours. Use it like a dick and you will get arrested,
same as if you waved a sword, a pen or a hammer around.
Powerful lasers are not toys, same as a rifle. A moments mistake because you were silly or just didn't know can last forever.
On a lighter note, you should see what a good Class 4 CO2 laser at 10.6 microns can do to a fire brick! Melting your name in
to it is fun. Just be aware that the reflections from the brick will burn your eyes out in less time than it takes to blink, and,
although you can make it about the size of a computer tower, you need 3 phase electric and a fast flowing water supply for
cooling.
So not quite as portable.

at about 535nm.
face for 90%.
pulp.
cooling.

at about 535nm.
face for 90%.
pulp.
cooling.
a_bab April 21st, 2005, 04:22 AM

Just something to add:
-you can actually double the power of the red cheap pointer if you manage to insert an extra button cell (sam Lasers FAQ).
That will fry the diode instantly is same cases though.
-there are yellow laser pointer available, at around 130 bucks. These are DPSS as the green ones.
A year ago there was a blue laser pointer on e-bay, for around 2000 bucks.
-there are violet (not UV!) diodes available, for 3000 dollars. They can be mounted in a pointer
In a matter on 5 years, when the blue ray DVD units will become obsolete, we'll have blue diodes for our pointers.


grendel23 April 21st, 2005, 06:37 AM

My green pointer came from the factory rated at 5mw, the most that can be legally sold in the US; it pulled 280ma and
actually put out about 15mw. From what I have read, my unit is better than most. I bumped the current to 380ma which is just
over the rating of the diode which is 375ma, so diode life should be acceptable. At that current, power is between 25 and 35mw
depending on the temperature. Some people are running 550-600ma and getting 100+mw, but diode and crystal life will be
greatly reduced.

greatly reduced.

greatly reduced.
FUTI April 21st, 2005, 11:25 AM

to Jack's Complete: Thanks for the usefull data. But when I asked about heating of the laser diode in modified pointer pen I
hoped that heating can be reduced by implementing a small circuitry in place of switch that will allow you to form a time
frequency tunable laser pulses (not wavelength of ligth but rather use of short flashes). I hoped that this will make heat
disipation better compared to continuous work of laser pointer pen. I'm also gratefull for other solutions proposed by other
members regarding cooling of device. Is there something wrong in my logic? If we can't make pointer to work in flashes
(altough I don't see the reason why this wouldn't work) maybe we can alter it in other way to modulate the current given to
diode so it produce peak power as maximum and normal/declared power as minumum of power output in some time
frequency domain. I'm almost certain that I saw declaration on one of the pointers I had saying it has wavelength 560nm and
50mW output but I will go and buy new one to make sure tomorrow. Heating by electromagnetic radiation, and normal cooling
through heat sink (conduction) and/or air cooling (convection) are different enough to make me confused is cooling of this
laser device (as handheld version) posible. I wouldn't expect anyway that busting of power is remarkable as the optics usually
isn't made to withstand that kind of molestation.


nbk2000 April 21st, 2005, 12:40 PM

At the laserglow site, they say that their GBL (expensive) series use a 1.2W (NOT milliwatts, but watt!) IR pumping diode.
Popping balloons and lighting matches with the thing, and that's in the visible (reduced power) green mode.
If I remember correctly, the IR is frequency doubled (or halved) to produce the visible green beam. If you modified it, you
could have a powerful IR illuminator/designator instead, as such IR devices are generally considered munitions and restricted
accordingly, so this modification may get you one past customs if they allow the green laser through. :)
nbk2000 April 21st, 2005, 12:40 PM

nbk2000 April 21st, 2005, 12:40 PM

Jacks Complete April 21st, 2005, 01:03 PM

FUTI, I see what you mean.
Yes, you could pulse the output, though it wouldn't make much difference, since the average power would be the same. The
only reason to do this would be to exceed some kind of (effectively instantaneous) damage threshold, such as ablation.
Welding bulk materials requires high average power, marking requires only high peak powers.
Some (IR) laser diode modules can be pulsed with massive currents with special driver circuits. The risk is that you fry it. I
could go and consult about this and get back to you. You can buy very powerful diode modules for material processing.
a_bab,
you are right that you can get the occasional blue laser or yellow. However, yellow is a waste of time, generally, since the
response curve of the eye means that the eye is the most sensitive - this is why green is used for NVG goggles. You can see
more shades of green than anything else, and your eye is more likely to see it at low levels, and so the power can be kept as
low as possible.
Blue diodes are available, and they are very expensive, with very short lifetimes. A few years back, they were cryo cooled and
had a lifetime of 15 hours! As ever, you can get almost anything with enough money. However, if you have enough money to
waste on a blue laser diode for messing around with, you have enough money to simply buy the diode package direct from
the manufacturer at the power output you want. If you want to drop a few K, you can buy any colour laser diode you want, at
pretty much whatever power you want.
You can even rig them up with a pigtailed fibre system in an array, and use 40 of them at once to burn holes in things at the
IR range. They are efficient, and so you have lower cooling requirements for a given output power. However, there are no
advantages to doing this at home. You would do better to invest in a pumped dye laser or something like it.
If you want a portable "laser gun" you could do it, but it would have to be at the IR frequency range to be realistic. Wire 10 of
the laser diode modules together, and make sure you buy ones that can pulse up to 40W a peice. Trigger them as you see
fit. Either one after another for a second or less, then allow to cool for a while, or pulse them together for ten times the power
for a few microseconds. Enough to burn things at a range, depending on optics.
You would have to target the eyes or exposed skin to have effect, and since the pulse will be really, really short, it won't cause
much skin damage. It will blow an eyeball nastily, though. However, due to the way the eye works, you are more likely to
simply cause a lesion in the back of the eyeball which will mean that the target is blinded in that area of the eye. This is a real
bitch if the beam is wide or hits the optic nerve or the fovea centralis (the middle bit you look with of most of the time, in the
center)
You would need quite a set of batteries, and things start to get big, but it would be possible to do this. If caught, expect
serious jail time - blinding someone will get you put away. Be aware that you will also blind yourself and your friends. Think
about any time you played with a laser pen and dazzled yourself for a fraction of a second. Now imagine that had blinded you
for three weeks. Now consider the beam isn't even visible, and that would be that.
The only way to treat it would be like a pistol grenade launcher without a safety, and no indication that it was about to fire or
had just fired. :eek: Not a tool for the weak-minded.
NBK,
frequency doubling is the same as halving the wavelength. It is a simple ratio around the speed of light. c = f * lambda
Using 1.2 W optical into the little doublers you get in laser pens will fry it, as it will suffer optical damage. The power inside the
chip is ten or 100 times higher then the input or output. You can actually see it "ramp up" when you turn it on. :)
You can easily turn a green diode laser pen into an IR laser - just remove the chip and the IR filter. Now it is more powerful,
and invisible, and likely to blind you without you knowing till you try to see something that night. Or else you wind up lookin'
like ;) or doing a Ray Charles impression :cool: !

a_bab,
low as possible.
center)
NBK,

a_bab,
low as possible.
center)
NBK,
nbk2000 April 21st, 2005, 01:12 PM

I could see using such an IR laser for frying pork eyes while they're sitting at a doughnut shop. Right through the
window...*sizzzzzPOP!*
Imagine the terror you could cause amoung the pork-bellies! Anytime of night (or day)...*sizzzzPOP!*...at the station, in their
car, on foot, in the air...>)
How long till they start wearing blinders or funky googles that render them nearly blind anyways? Mwahahaha!
nbk2000 April 21st, 2005, 01:12 PM

nbk2000 April 21st, 2005, 01:12 PM


The snag with that is they would have to not be behind glass, since IR doesn't travel through it. You would have to go for
something at the very far red end. They would see a slight flash, but nothing else.
A better way might be a hugely powerful Nd:YAG or CO2 with a mirror mount for point defence. Just melt the window away...


Marvin April 21st, 2005, 03:53 PM

IR from a laser diode for a green DPSS will go through glass fine, its at 808nm. IR from a Nd:YAG also goes through glass with
no problem, at about 1032nm. IR from a CO2 laser at 10um or so won't go through glass well and tends to shatter it from
localised heating.
UV lasers are no problem with exactly the same technology used for green. DPSS using alexandrite will get you UV anywhere
between 350 and 410nm depending on mirrors, or by altering the spec of the green system slightly (additional dichroics not
possible to retrofit) you can triple the output to 355nm. The power out for a given pump laser gets a lot worse which is why
blue laser pointers cost so much for a lousey output power.
We have decent lifespan UV LEDs at 375nm and below now so I imagine its just a matter of time before a semiconductor UV
laser apears. Mass produced blue lasers for blu-ray will be fun but I suspect we'll get cheap blue laser pointers long before its
worth searching for dead or secondhand players.
Pulsing semiconductor lasers can be done but the avarage power generally has to be a lot less than the CW power, so no
point.

localised heating.
point.

localised heating.
point.
FUTI April 21st, 2005, 04:55 PM

to Jack's Complete: Thanks again. I don't want to make a welding device, cutter or rifle. What I was interested is it posible
make pulsed or output power modulated device. As you say it is I will try to make one in some time. But I don't know how
does this manipulation affect laser diode lifetime? Can I get longer lifetime as I hoped with this manipulation as well as power
busting? I hope this can be true if the working temperature of the diode is the main factor for the lifetime period. I want to
make a simple signaling/testing device and light will go through optical cable or solution in isolated box so I hope I'm safe
enough ("We'll see!";)).



Weren't there IR laser diodes 5-50 watts with colimator and driver already for sale? I remeber once somebody offered me 20
watts IR 1050 or so for 500 bugs...
(Also remember some laser diode series that "Conrad" sale. The presentation of the first 1-Watt diodes in BG (Conrad) was
back in 1998. Argh... memmories...)
Laser weapons WILL be decent as they really work!

Nobody could point out where the pulse came from...




Jacks Complete April 23rd, 2005, 10:14 AM

simply RED,
laser weapons don't work well. They are purely line of sight, the firing signature is huge and instant, and easily picked up. The
power requirements are bad (just look at the power in a rifle cartridge and compare to a battery!) and the optics are easy to
get dirty or damaged. They don't work well in the rain, nor hot sun, nor cloud/mist/fog. Aiming isn't as easy as you think,
either, since IR travels differently to visible light (in the same way as you split the colours for a rainbow) Power drops off quite
rapidly with distance, too, and you are likely to find yourself getting hit by your own beams, due to the ease of construction of
a corner cube, which automatically turns your beam back at you. If you lase a modern tank, they know where you are, too.
Anyone with a video camera will also know where you are. And before you say "blind it" all they need is two or more cameras -
you can only blind one per shot (if that!) so they have you.
Further, if you have ever been on the far end of a laser beam, the scatter from dust and water, or even the secondary
luminesense effects, you would know that the world and his wife can see where you are!
FUTI, if you are using fibres, you don't need a lot of power. The losses will be tiny for anything you are going to do with it, and
detection is trivial with a phototransistor or photodiode. Even for a three KM run you won't notice an issue, as long as you get
the pigtailing and beam inject sorted. Also, be aware that diode lasers *hate* feedback. You must minimise the light that
returns to the laser head.
Marvin,
Yes, if you can find a carefully made tripler chip! Also, as you say, the efficiency gets far worse, meaning you need a heatsink
that is bigger, more batteries, lower output, etc. for something that, for the same power, is only half as bright to the eye.
Unless you reach into the UV, there is no point going up the frequency range - you just get more issues with efficiency. Of
course, a blue laser would be just that bit cooler than a green laser, but unless you actually want it for the colour, it is a waste
of a few thousand dollars.
Also, we have had blue LEDs for over ten years now, and green for far longer. If making green laser diodes was easy (let
alone blue) why would anyone make an IR one then add extra parts and expense to make a green pointer?

simply RED,
Marvin,

simply RED,
Marvin,
simply RED April 23rd, 2005, 01:28 PM

I have not dealed with lasers for 3 years. But remember that IR LEDs are many times cheaper and more powerful than visible
LEDs. Thats why it is prefered to use IR LED as a pumping source and then multiply the frequency by non- linear optics (
whatever it means :) ).
Sincerely said... They have no protection from lasers.

Maybe if you fire once, twice, they may do some protection activities. But at the present times no protection or detection of
microwaves up to gama rays exists.
You may fire at all frequency range from 30GHz and above and will not be detected (unless VISible light is used).
That includes microwave weapons with possibility of creating psychotronic weapons (never seen such to work) , IR blinding and
burning lasers, UV, Ro, gama. From these, I guess, IR are easiest to use.
Yes, I know that aiming is a pain in the ass. Anyway - an enthusiast will cope with the problem.





I typed a huge response to simply RED's post, but the server was too busy, and I lost it.
To recap: LEDs are not lasers, if they were, then why spend lots on a laser if a 29p LED would do the job? They aren't used to
pump things. Flashlamps and other lasers are.
Any freq. can be detected. CCDs pick up UV, vis. and near IR. Tanks know which building to level when you laser range them
due to detector on turret.
NVGs pick up near IR insanely well, as do small B&W video cameras. Thermal imagers detect long wavelength IR.
Sunglasses stop 90% of damage. IR and UV are blocked, plus ~15% of visible light.
I also recapped on the troubles getting shorter frequencies, and that the reason we have green laser pens is because it is
cheaper to build them with a doubler, using more parts, than it is to build an actual green diode, let alone blue ones.
Aiming is easy, hitting is hard. Power drops with beam spread over ranges, but tight spot is far harder to hit target with. Head
shots at 500yards are difficult, even though you can see the target because IR travels a bit differently to visible light. IR gets
absorbed by water in air far more than visible light. Doesn't work when misty or raining, etc.


FUTI April 26th, 2005, 06:55 AM

to Jack's Complete: Thanks for explanation. It seem that I won't need stronger light source, but I will have to reduce the path
of light through the testing solution in order to cut the intensity drop to resonable level. I try to make the detector volume as
small as posible and that is why I'm thinking of using fibers as mean of "introducing" light into detector "chamber". In my
opinion it would simplify the device very much, but as nothing is perfect - it has its flaws. I was hoping to make modulated
power souce to counteract with some of the flaws/difficulties so that's why this thread gain my attention. Timed pulses are
simple and obtainable solution, but I'm more fond of using power/intensity modulated pulses, as it give me more space for
experiments and improvement. This time I have 3 question.
1. As LED based lasers aren't real lasers as they aren't monochromatic and have about 10nm range will this afect performance
significantly? You know interference or something...
2. If I'm unable to avoid power modulation as mean of signal confirmation/improvement and decide to make one but still in
the limits of prescribed power output for the device, will the simple modulation of the electric current (i) do the job (as
grendel23 proposed above)?
3. Detection of signal is important and meaning of all said avobe is conected to this one. Will simple photodiode or
phototransistor be able to work in that regime? I was thinking to use photocell for its wider detection in fear of that 10nm wide
source, but then when you posted above it was like "logic bomb" to my knowledge (which is maybe signal of insuficient
knowledge or data or both). I can understand how photodiode or phototransistor can detect light and duration of signal, but I
can hardly imagine that it can detect power modulated signal the exactly the way it looks.



NOOOOOO
I wrote the reply 3 hours and it halted.......
Anyway:
1
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=diode+pumped&hl=bg&lr=&selm=6ncmk1%24fu4%241%40pula.financenet.gov&rnum=1
see how are the modern lasers pumped.
see alt.lasers too.
And i was explaining with the quantum theory why diodes must be used but not a lamp. Because the wavelenghth must fall in
the "excitement spectra". And must be monochromatic, not that diodes are but are near.
2 No defense exists for the civil population. I KNOW FROM FUCKING EXPERIENCE.
I have "experimented" with kilowatts of 1kHz - 2700 MHz. And watts of IR for 2 years every day for 8 hours, destroyed
numerous electric devices! Used 5mW red pointer to detonate 200 grams device. And noone ever said something.
See the reality!
Only the most advanced armies have any defense. (BG army does not have).
Short pulses are impossible to detect! Tanks are not to be shoot with a laser or MW. Only planes and people. (there was a
report in the news somebody illuminated a plane with powerful green laser. Do they catch him? )
3 FUTI, what device are you trying to make? Why is detector needed.
4. Jacks Complete, absoluitely right! Lasers have low range!

20 mW IR could be used to aim the 5 watts one. and you will be the one with the googles to see the spot, not the hams!
5. I would like to have the microwave spectra of GABA in diluted solution. Anyway such subjects are tabu and "we" only take
some pussy-chemicals spectra.

NOOOOOO
Anyway:
1
see alt.lasers too.
See the reality!


NOOOOOO
Anyway:
1
see alt.lasers too.
See the reality!


simply RED I don't make device. Detector is the goal. I'm trying to make somthing that can measure one of the following
parameters: index of refraction, transparence or adsorption to surface. First parameter is best to be detected by
monochromatic light so I choose LED laser pen(well sodium D-line would be better, but what the heck this is cheapest and
closest I can get in homemade construction), for the second parameter it would be best if I have several LED laser pen of
diferent colour (like red, blue and green) to make some kind of primitive photocolorimeter (although red is fine as far as I'm
concerned but I started to worry little what if turbidity of solution give me false signal augmentation or noise so thats why blue
LED (as that wavelength is more prone to that) would serve as control probe.... - I'm still working to solve that one
completely). Adsorption is simple, photodiode is covered with transparent material and adsorption of molecules from solution
changes its spectral caracteristics (transparency). I was hoping that use of fibers will reduce optical elements (mirrors, lenses
etc.) to minimum and that rest of the design flaws can be counteracted with digital conversion/sampling of the signal even if it
reduce response time of the device. If anyone can help me with this please send me a PM as posting seems to be little dificult
lately.
Hell, I have ethyl ester of GABA, but don't have where to record the spectra! You have the can, I have the can opener or is it
other way around. Anyway why do you need that spectra?

lately.

lately.

FUTI,
can you explain exactly what you are making? Is it a fibre-based comms device? Why do you want to modulate the power,
rather than simply switch? Are you after some kind of analogue system, rather than digital?
A photodiode will happily respond with a voltage that is proportional to the incident light, as long as you don't saturate the
device. You could do this wil even just a low powered LED over short distances.
However, as I type this, you have posted again. The problem with your detector for spectra is that it would be using a (almost)
monochromatic light beam. This means it won't work. To detect the absorbed frequencies, you need all the frequencies to be
there first. You then measure the spectra, and add your sample. Take the spectra again, and subtract the first run to get a flat
response curve.
Easiest way to do this is a photodiode, a transparent quartz cell, a ruled diffraction grating, some tubes and things, and an
incadescent bulb (none halogen). If combined with a data capture card and a position measurement device to record the angle
at the same time as the incident power, you would have quite a professional bit of kit. You don't need fibres or any more
optics than a lense to get a nice beam off your lamp, or to expand the beam so you get higher precision readings by
expanding the beam angle after the grating.
simply RED,
yes, you can pump using a diode, but it is rare. You have to get the diode to lase at just the right frequency for the
stimulation of your target laser material. Done just right, you get very high efficiency, done not quite right, you get nothing but
melted optics. And you certainly cannot run a diode into a frequency doubler chip.
Using a diode laser as a pump is very much more efficient than a flashlamp, but believe me, most lasers (by type) are
pumped by other lasers, or by a flashlamp. In pure numbers, most lasers are pumped by electricity, either via a diode's
current injection, or by the high voltage arc of a He-Ne. I reckon 99%+ of all lasers are diode lasers, and 99%+ of the 1% are
He-Ne.
Also, note that nowhere did I say lasers have short range! I can light up a plane at 40 miles (in theory) since I can see it!
However, I do like your idea of having a low powered IR diode laser slaved to a 5W laser. Better, however, might be a Q-
switched system. The pump will leak then fire a pulse. You could then use the same lower power laser to do both jobs.

FUTI,
response curve.
simply RED,
He-Ne.

FUTI,
response curve.
simply RED,
He-Ne.

While searching, I run onto this link (http://www.technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele/lasers/LasersN2.htm). It's related to
the N2 (i.e. air) lasers. And there is a reference at the bottom of the page (Reference [6] A simple, high power nitrogen laser
D. Basting, et al. etc. etc.) it states its power output is 1.2 MW. Can it be deployed to some good uses (with regard to of
course E&W related uses)?



to Jack's Complete: Thanks. Your posts were very helpfull. You resolved some "dark places" that I had no courage to go in,
but have vague sense they are outthere waiting for me to to stumble on them and bust my nose. I know that it wont record
full spectra. It was never intended. The compound I'm chasing have its max absorption at the same wavelength as LED diode
laser I want to use so it is actually simpler then that. The idea of using several diodes were highly hipotetical and just rough
drawing induced by fear of several absorption mechanism acting together. I agree with everything you said and proposed
scematics of detector but where I'm living grating isn't really "homemade" or easy obtainable part of equipment. I will let you
know what did I manage to do in a month or two. I think that index of refraction isn't questionable so I think one of three
posible parameters I can't miss.



The microwave specter of GABA in solution is inetersting because
the molecule H3N(+)-CH2-CH2-CH2-COO(-) is very possibly active as MW absorbent (it is a perfect dipole). The microwaves
should affect the "rotational energy" of the molecule.
{IR affects vibrational energy, UV - electron energy, radiowaves are associated with "magnetic" changes.)
Anyway the specter may not have a good maximum but rather wide peak due to solvatation processes and solution energy
transfer (heating).
As a fact, GABA is one of the most valuable CNS mediators. Chaging its energy will cause malfunctions of the GABA- receptor
aparatus.
In other words, the peak absorbtion wavelength may be psychoactive.
(It may be like the MW oven heats the water but not the porcelain dish.)
I have serious materials (Soviet "Toxicology and Pharmacology magazine(for professional use) ") about a russian MW
experiments (not quite interesting, may type it here some day). Anyway, they use brutal force and don't use particular
frequency, just the easiest to generate. The device kills mice at range (200 meters). Mice die due to CNS and hearth failure.
Russians even found that doping mice with some chemical (don't remember what) acts like defense and mice need higher
doses MW radiation to die.
But they only killed the mice and never tried how the MW affect their behaviour.
Back on topic:
Visible spectrometers (SPEKOL) series first desintegrate white light to all frequences with a difraction latice or prism. You can
adjust what wavelength to use to illuminate the sample by a rotating key on the apparatus.
So, you chose the wavelength , put there your sample in a cuvette and measure absorbtion.
I have done experiments with SPEKOL-12 (12 if i remember correctly) to measure absorbtion from 400 to 500 nm of a metal
complex molecule , measuring was made in every 10 nm. And then a graphic was drawn to show the spectra of the complex in
this wavelength range.
If adjustable laser is available. Is it? The measurement will be more precise.
To measure quantity using absorbtion law, you need the peak of the spectra, so no laser will work (unless in the peak or
adjustable).
transfer (heating).
aparatus.
Back on topic:
adjustable).

transfer (heating).
aparatus.
Back on topic:
adjustable).

akinrog, That's for a self-terminating 90ns pulsed UV laser. Very smart, runs off air and electric!
FUTI, anything with closely spaced lines will do - a CD, even, or (a poor second) a glass prism.
Anything that you can throw a rainbow onto the wall with from the sunlight will work.
The best way, as simply RED says, would be a tunable laser pointing through the cell, with the detector on the other side. Then
just scroll through the frequencies and record the absorbtion. Having a laser at the absorbtion peak won't really tell you
anything, though.

anything, though.

anything, though.
Marvin April 28th, 2005, 12:49 AM

FUTI,
You are correct but you need to split the laser beam and have a detector on each. One beam has the same in, the other just
measures the relative strength of the beam with nothing absorbing. If you know these values and the path length that gets
you the concentration of the chemical in the solution. I assume its what you are after. Additional beams are only important if
you have interfering chemicals in the solution as well.
Akinrog,
Nitrogen laser has impressive sounding power, but its pulses are less than 10ns long typically. The energy per pulse is very
very small. The beam is also virtually impossible to focus, unlike an ordinary laser.
Jack, Red,
UV/Vis spectrometers for me were the dullest things Ive ever used, they tell you virtually nothing about the molecule. Ive
heard good things about looking into a glass prism with a telescope for atomic line spectra. CD's dont disperse that cleanly,
mainly becuase they arnt straight lines, good enough for working out the frequency of a laser pointer but not much else.

FUTI,
Akinrog,
Jack, Red,

FUTI,
Akinrog,
Jack, Red,

Marvin,
in the absence of any way to get a diffraction grating, they are about as good as you can get for free. A DVD will have a finer
blaze, though. Use the outside edge, and a small peice, with a focusing lens, to get the best results you can. I wouldn't use a
glass prism I didn't have a spectra for it for an IR splitter, plus you get pretty poor diffraction angles c.f. a grating.
IR spectroscopy isn't something I've ever really used in anger. You can try to work out the structure of a chemical from it, but
these days you are quicker to look it up in a book or database.
The UV pulse isn't hard to focus, just very expensive, needing first surface mirrors or quartz optics! However, the beam is
typically fairly parallel, and certainly way above eye-safe levels.

Marvin,

Marvin,

Edmund scientific and related optics company sell everything from holographic grating film to gold plated ruled masters. CD or
DVD maybe free but this is not always value for money. Focusing the light on the grating is completely counter productive, to
use a grating the light has to be colamated and the resolution depends on the total area used.
IR spec is useful because it contains so much information, UV/Vis/NIR is next to useless outside specific applications like
organometallic chemistry, or working with dyestuffs.
The problem with the N2 laser isnt that its UV, 337nm is fine for ordinary glass its that unlike most lasers it doesnt resonate.
Normally you have a low gain medium being pumped between two mirrors, one alowing some laser light through. Aside from
being required to lase, this system means that the beam collapses to almost completely parallel - anything off level
eventually misses one of the mirrors and nolonger contributes. The nitrogen laser has either 1 or no mirrors, its superradient
and self terminating. The result is the very short pulse essentially only has 1 pass (or absolute maximum 2) through the
medium. N2 laser pulses just don't focus very well.
The second problem is the energy per pulse is miniscule, an impressive sounding '100 KW' N2 laser may only have half a
millijoule of energy in the pulse, the same energy as a 5 mw laser pointer operating for only 1/10th of a second. The peak
power is misleading.
As for the whole concept of blinding people with lasers, aside from the seemingly goalless harrassing of the police, assuming
someone's eye can be realiably lit with say a 1cm square beam (by the time it reaches the target), that would need a
sustained burst of 100mw power just to equal sunlight. I also strongly suspect that the production of that much power would
also produce visible results, making who was doing the aiming very clear. Eye response (at very low levels) goes down to
longer than 850nm for direct results and high power directly into the eye from 1000nm region and beyond (probably from
around 800 to 1400ish) is visible due to doubling effects in the eyeball. This is even assuming the laser produces just the
single wavelength with no noise or giveaway flashes of other light..



That's pretty much what I said.
However, if you can get no other grating (due to laws or whatever, and cost, in Bulgaria) it is far better than nothing. As for
focusing on the grating, you use a lense to increase the resolution of the grating, by placing it between the detector and the
grating. It will probably smooth the output a little, though, unless you get it just right.
NIR is little use, agreed, but that is the only place a homebrewer is going to be able to get a decent shot at making the
detectors, optics, etc. work.
As regards the "seeing what you shouldn't", this is true. However, if you get enough light to see the flash from something way
down the spectrum, it will be enough energy to blind. Anyone off the axis of the beam won't see the dim flash, since they
won't have enough incident energy.
Focusing isn't that hard, since the beam is fairly repeatable from an N2 laser. However, pumping something else (dye lasers)
works better, as well as smoothing the pulses.
However, if you want to burn or mark or damage something, the peak energy is what matters. Pulse length makes very little
difference, since you are using a high number of high energy photons to put large amounts of power into something in a very
short space of time. Don't forget, laser eye damage occurs faster than blink reflex - 5mw for 1/10th of a second is all you
would ever get in the visible range, since the target eye would blink. Compress that energy down to a few nanoseconds, and
the eye is damaged before the brain even registers the light hitting it. It's like the difference between using a chisel and using
a shotgun. The total energy in might be the same, but the results will be very different a lot of the time.


nbk2000 May 9th, 2005, 06:53 PM

When typing up a big reply, always do it in Notepad, or some other text editing program, and save it, prior to attempting to
upload the reply to RS.org.
I've been caught out by the 'Disappearing Post' error too, and always after typing out a magnum opus! :( :mad:
nbk2000 May 9th, 2005, 06:53 PM

nbk2000 May 9th, 2005, 06:53 PM

FUTI May 10th, 2005, 06:56 AM

to Jack's Complete: As "homebrewer" I'm interested in anything even NIR although I have no use of it right now (but I can try
to watch the clouds in NIR just for fun:)). So if you have idea how to do it I can try it. You can PM to me.
to Marvin: I will certainly try prism, but CD is good idea (I give it a try just for fun). I wanted to split beam anyway due to
power oscillation (I love electrical company:(). I have question. I was taught that "semipermeable mirror" is best way to do
that. I know that it can be achieved with prisms too. Obviously I will have to go with prism and a ordinary mirror because I
don't have semipermeable mirror. Why is first design better?
Simly RED I see what are you cooking:D? But I think you are on wrong tracks. There were speculations about Russians used
MW in that Moscow theatre terrorist incident, but I think that is a hoax and demonstration of good old CW in action. CW has
one benefit over MW, easier to control and can be directed to some extent due to concentration dependence on action. To do
that with MW you would have to have mean to make directed beam (focal point) on target which is hard. I think that action of
MW isn't neurotransmitter related, but some way of neuronal membrane disturbation. Good choice of neurotransmitter though
since if you make GABA receptor fault since they work as inhibitory it makes sympthoms similar to seisure (epilepsy?).
akinrog that link is very good, you always suprise me with ideas and knowledge you have. Thanks.
FUTI May 10th, 2005, 06:56 AM

FUTI May 10th, 2005, 06:56 AM


What about dye lasers?
I read about it in the book:

" Manual for theory and practice of lasers " 1996: "University publishment" .
The book contained some extremely complex shemes of such lasers.
Is there a way to make such laser with a normal "easy" scheme?
The manual also contained schemes of almost every possible laser invented so far.
Only diode pumped could be made hand held. (also see the new diodes... 50W in IR and above)
In order to make high power one, you need CO2 or chemical laser (F2, D2).
To illuminate in UV with high power - you need eximeric laser.
The other good use of a laser is a part of a remote control. Reliable. Quite easier to make than radio, cheaper, so you could
"sacrifice" the receiver.
http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele/lasers/LasersOther.htm
The diagram shows how to amplitude modulate a diode.

(extremely good link, akinrog)
FUTI, I recently work on multiple "projects" at once. You never know which one will finally come to realisation. Of course this is
a joke compared to VXs for example...






kingspaz May 10th, 2005, 08:40 AM

Heres a little about chemical oxygen-iodine lasers (COIL).
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec01/DE0104.html



COIL are cool. A stunning amount of power out, considering the mass in. In use for the Boeing Anti-Ballistic Missile airplane
project (I forget the name)
FEL is the best, though, using nothing but electricity.
The Isreali army built a laser system that uses burning petrol as the laser medium, which is also very smart.
FUTI:
For an easy beam splitter, you can use a microwave slide at an angle, or even, for low powers, cling film. The thiner the
material the better. Also, an unburned section of CD will split a beam quite a lot, but the other way. You can get mylar film in
various thicknesses, too, but that's harder to get (try a silver foil survival blanket)
======\-------
|
|
EDIT: Marvin, following on from the vbChat, I suggest you look at "laser damage mechanisms" on google, for more info.
http://www.tecoptics.com/laseroptics/threshold.htm says, for example,

Laser Damage Threshold Mechanisms
With the ever-increasing laser peak powers and pulse energies that are now attainable, laser coating technology must similarly
improve. A number of mechanisms cause laser coating failure. The most important are absorption and electron avalanche.
Absorption causes thermal laser damage. Bulk absorption can be avoided by the choice of non-absorbing materials and by
making sure all materials are of the highest quality with no absorbing impurities. Localized absorption can come from
inclusions in the coating (prevented by appropriate coating techniques) or from surface-absorbed contaminants.
Electron-avalanche induced damage comes from multiphoton absorption that ionizes the material, causing shock waves and
vaporization. The damage can occur in surface imperfections, in one of the dielectric materials, or at the interface between
materials. Since the processes are multi-photon, the probability of damage increases very non-linearly with laser power density
(normally expressed in watts/cm2).
Note that non-linear effects are more likely at higher powers, and duration has little to do with it, as they tend to be things like
photon interactions, multiple absorptions, etc. so higher peak powers, even though a lower total energy, have far more effect.
Hence the use of Q-switching and other pulse compression techniques.

FUTI:
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|
|


FUTI:
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|
|

cougar98332 June 6th, 2005, 01:37 PM

a powerful laser is goin to get get rather hot, so even pumping enough power into the little laser wont do any good as it would
overheat. you have the righ right optics, proper circuitry, and a cooling system, if you are really interested in laser building
then i suggest visiting: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele/lasers/index.html
cougar98332 June 6th, 2005, 01:37 PM

a powerful laser is goin to get get rather hot, so even pumping enough power into the little laser wont do any good as it would
overheat. you have the righ right optics, proper circuitry, and a cooling system, if you are really interested in laser building
then i suggest visiting: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele/lasers/index.html
Marvin June 8th, 2005, 02:47 AM

Jack,
That is for laser coatings, dichroic mirrors, transparent films, frequency multipliers/mixers and so on, it has nothing at all to do
with biological systems.
Since you bring up the topic of threshold damage, which is easier to obtain data for, it seems reasonable to accept the limiting
powers of eye safe lasers (class 1) as relavent. In the visible range, for pulsed lasers the limits are between about 4e-6 and
2e-7 Joules. Whats most obvious though, is that the longest pulse, 1ms corrispond to the highest power, as expected, but the
step up to 1us pulses, 3 orders of magnetude increase in *peak power* gets a decrease of only 1 order of magnetude
reduction in pulse energy. When you move right the way to pulses of duration 10 or 20ns, ie a furthur 2 orders of magnetude
increase in *peak power* there is no change at all in allowed pulse energy. This does not corrispond at all with increases in
peak power being related to eye damage. It makes far more sense to think in terms of a time frame, from the numbers in
the region of 100us seems about right within which total energy is what sets the threshold for damage and it being completely
useless to talk about peak power.
The free electron laser is a waste of time, while it uses no chemicals this is a disadvantage given power densities of chemicals
versus batteries and capacitors. Its also less a discrete tool and more a set of magnets you attach to someone elses
synchotron.

Jack,
That is for laser coatings, dichroic mirrors, transparent films, frequency multipliers/mixers and so on, it has nothing at all to do
with biological systems.
Since you bring up the topic of threshold damage, which is easier to obtain data for, it seems reasonable to accept the limiting
powers of eye safe lasers (class 1) as relavent. In the visible range, for pulsed lasers the limits are between about 4e-6 and
2e-7 Joules. Whats most obvious though, is that the longest pulse, 1ms corrispond to the highest power, as expected, but the
step up to 1us pulses, 3 orders of magnetude increase in *peak power* gets a decrease of only 1 order of magnetude
reduction in pulse energy. When you move right the way to pulses of duration 10 or 20ns, ie a furthur 2 orders of magnetude
increase in *peak power* there is no change at all in allowed pulse energy. This does not corrispond at all with increases in
peak power being related to eye damage. It makes far more sense to think in terms of a time frame, from the numbers in
the region of 100us seems about right within which total energy is what sets the threshold for damage and it being completely
useless to talk about peak power.
The free electron laser is a waste of time, while it uses no chemicals this is a disadvantage given power densities of chemicals
versus batteries and capacitors. Its also less a discrete tool and more a set of magnets you attach to someone elses
synchotron.

If you are using an FEL at "home" they are great, since you just run them via the socket, and turn them to the frequency you
want. However, you are right that for portable purposes they are useless.
As for the laser threshold damage thing, yes, once you get down to the tiny, tiny pulse lengths, you get other effects. For one
thing, very short pulses tend to get spread out by most coated optics, since they do strange things as they pass through. I
seriously doubt you could get a 10ns or shorter pulse to the back of the eye, as it would spread in length/time as it traveled
through the cornea, lens, fluid, etc.
From what you quote, it sounds like the laser damage mechanisms for eye safe pulsed lasers are fairly high, then. This
explains how the army can use high powered long range, yet eye safe laser designators. However, dropping from a 1ms pulse
to a 1us pulse means you have to drop your peak power to 10% to remain eye-safe. So if you take your 1ms pulse and
compress it down to 1us, you will have a peak power of (at 100% eff.) 100 times your previous peak power level, yet this
leaves it 1000 times more powerful than the limits for eye-safety.
So I am right. If you compress your pulses down, you are more likely to be able to use them for a blinding device, for the
same electrical power in. Instead of a steady CW beam at 1mW (or, more usefully here, 1mJ/s), which is eye safe, you could
easily have a peak power of 1W from that same power, in 1ms per second, or a pulse power of 1mJ, which is far beyond the
eye safe limit of 4uJ. Further compression to a 1us pulse would yeild a peak power of 1kW, with the same 1mJ power, whilst
the eye safe limit at that level would drop to 10% of the limit for the longer pulse, presumably 0.4uJ.
So at a 1ms pulse length, a 1mJ peak is 250 times the eye safe limit, while at 1us pulse length, it is 2500 times the eye safe
limit, using the data you provided. This would be like carrying a 2.5W CW laser with you!
Now consider that we can get about 50mW of CW power, and that would, with compression, give a nominal level of 12500
times the eyesafe level at 1ms. Let's compress it further, but fire it ten times a second, rather than once, and we get the
same result.
Assume we loose 50% doing the compression, and that leaves us with a laser pen that is firing 10 times a second with the
equivalent power of a 6.25W laser!

If you are using an FEL at "home" they are great, since you just run them via the socket, and turn them to the frequency you
want. However, you are right that for portable purposes they are useless.
As for the laser threshold damage thing, yes, once you get down to the tiny, tiny pulse lengths, you get other effects. For one
thing, very short pulses tend to get spread out by most coated optics, since they do strange things as they pass through. I
seriously doubt you could get a 10ns or shorter pulse to the back of the eye, as it would spread in length/time as it traveled
through the cornea, lens, fluid, etc.
From what you quote, it sounds like the laser damage mechanisms for eye safe pulsed lasers are fairly high, then. This
explains how the army can use high powered long range, yet eye safe laser designators. However, dropping from a 1ms pulse
to a 1us pulse means you have to drop your peak power to 10% to remain eye-safe. So if you take your 1ms pulse and
compress it down to 1us, you will have a peak power of (at 100% eff.) 100 times your previous peak power level, yet this
leaves it 1000 times more powerful than the limits for eye-safety.
So I am right. If you compress your pulses down, you are more likely to be able to use them for a blinding device, for the
same electrical power in. Instead of a steady CW beam at 1mW (or, more usefully here, 1mJ/s), which is eye safe, you could
easily have a peak power of 1W from that same power, in 1ms per second, or a pulse power of 1mJ, which is far beyond the
eye safe limit of 4uJ. Further compression to a 1us pulse would yeild a peak power of 1kW, with the same 1mJ power, whilst
the eye safe limit at that level would drop to 10% of the limit for the longer pulse, presumably 0.4uJ.
So at a 1ms pulse length, a 1mJ peak is 250 times the eye safe limit, while at 1us pulse length, it is 2500 times the eye safe
limit, using the data you provided. This would be like carrying a 2.5W CW laser with you!
Now consider that we can get about 50mW of CW power, and that would, with compression, give a nominal level of 12500
same result.
Assume we loose 50% doing the compression, and that leaves us with a laser pen that is firing 10 times a second with the
equivalent power of a 6.25W laser!
Marvin June 11th, 2005, 02:26 PM

"If you are using an FEL at "home" they are great, since you just run them via the socket,"
Well, Hmm, you run the accelerator probably from industrial 3 phase mains and that might involve some sort of socket....
"For one thing, very short pulses tend to get spread out by most coated optics, since they do strange things as they pass
through. I seriously doubt you could get a 10ns or shorter pulse to the back of the eye, as it would spread in length/time as it
traveled through the cornea, lens, fluid, etc. "
I can see where this concept is coming from, you are thinking of pulses speading out like ripples on water. The problem you
have here is that 10ns amounts to a 3 meter long light pulse (in air) and significant spreading by a few cm of transparent
material is quite obviously not going to happen. If the pulse were in the femotosecond range you might have a case.
"it sounds like the laser damage mechanisms for eye safe pulsed lasers are fairly high, then"
I dont follow.
"This explains how the army can use high powered long range, yet eye safe laser designators. "
The army rangefinders tend to use intrinsically eye safe wavelengths that never reach the retina, damage thresholds are then
many orders of magnetude higher.
"However, dropping from a 1ms pulse to a 1us pulse means you have to drop your peak power to 10% to remain eye-safe. So
if you take your 1ms pulse and compress it down to 1us, you will have a peak power of (at 100% eff.) 100 times your previous
peak power level, yet this leaves it 1000 times more powerful than the limits for eye-safety."
There are several ways to interpret this, as far as I can determine they are all wrong. The limits deal with total pulse energy for
given values of pulse length. Peak power is not relavent, trying to convert between is just going to confuse everyone.
"So I am right. If you compress your pulses down, you are more likely to be able to use them for a blinding device"
You are more likley to exceed damage threshold levels, I'm not sure thats quite the same thing. If you take energy over a
long period and release it in a short period it will usually do more damage, I dont think this was ever in doubt. The issue as
far as I was aware concerned the peak power of very short pulse devices like the N2 laser and if these numbers had any real
meaning in the context of eye safety. I think I've shown they don't.
"So at a 1ms pulse length, a 1mJ peak is 250 times the eye safe limit, while at 1us pulse length, it is 2500 times the eye safe
limit, using the data you provided. "
If you remove the word 'peak' then that looks in the right ball park. Having said that what are we supposed to assume by 250
and 2500 times? Should we be impressed? Are we to assume this is eclipse without sunglasses territory or Exodos in Oedipus
Rex? As far as the ANSI standard goes its if you exceed the numbers, not by how much.
"This would be like carrying a 2.5W CW laser with you!"
Huh?
"Now consider that we can get about 50mW of CW power, and that would, with compression, give a nominal level of 12500
same result."
So far you seem to be taking numbers that sound reasonable, in order to turn them into numbers that sound impressesive
without any real thought to how feasable it actually is. For example, you seem to be using an unstated value of 1 second
pulse length for all your math. Why 1? Why not an hour? Why not a day? Why not the full 6000 hours average lifespan of the
core diode? Are you just confusing energy with power? You are also equating multiple pulses with combined damage
thresholds.
The last bit is noteworthy because it moves from highly questionable feasability to outright self delusion. If you take a 50mw
pointer, and compress an entire second into a short pulse - and then fire it 10 times a second, you are by definition expecting
500mw average power. For a laser diode designed specifically for pulsing I would expect a several fold increase in allowed
power levels for a short pulse over CW - at much reduced average power. This would be somewhat short of the 6 orders of
magnetude you seem to be expecting. Other forms of laser will have limits with different causes but similar conclusions.

"If you are using an FEL at "home" they are great, since you just run them via the socket,"
Well, Hmm, you run the accelerator probably from industrial 3 phase mains and that might involve some sort of socket....
"For one thing, very short pulses tend to get spread out by most coated optics, since they do strange things as they pass
through. I seriously doubt you could get a 10ns or shorter pulse to the back of the eye, as it would spread in length/time as it
traveled through the cornea, lens, fluid, etc. "
I can see where this concept is coming from, you are thinking of pulses speading out like ripples on water. The problem you
have here is that 10ns amounts to a 3 meter long light pulse (in air) and significant spreading by a few cm of transparent
material is quite obviously not going to happen. If the pulse were in the femotosecond range you might have a case.
"it sounds like the laser damage mechanisms for eye safe pulsed lasers are fairly high, then"
I dont follow.
"This explains how the army can use high powered long range, yet eye safe laser designators. "
The army rangefinders tend to use intrinsically eye safe wavelengths that never reach the retina, damage thresholds are then
many orders of magnetude higher.
"However, dropping from a 1ms pulse to a 1us pulse means you have to drop your peak power to 10% to remain eye-safe. So
if you take your 1ms pulse and compress it down to 1us, you will have a peak power of (at 100% eff.) 100 times your previous
peak power level, yet this leaves it 1000 times more powerful than the limits for eye-safety."
There are several ways to interpret this, as far as I can determine they are all wrong. The limits deal with total pulse energy for
given values of pulse length. Peak power is not relavent, trying to convert between is just going to confuse everyone.
"So I am right. If you compress your pulses down, you are more likely to be able to use them for a blinding device"
You are more likley to exceed damage threshold levels, I'm not sure thats quite the same thing. If you take energy over a
long period and release it in a short period it will usually do more damage, I dont think this was ever in doubt. The issue as
far as I was aware concerned the peak power of very short pulse devices like the N2 laser and if these numbers had any real
meaning in the context of eye safety. I think I've shown they don't.
If you remove the word 'peak' then that looks in the right ball park. Having said that what are we supposed to assume by 250
and 2500 times? Should we be impressed? Are we to assume this is eclipse without sunglasses territory or Exodos in Oedipus
Rex? As far as the ANSI standard goes its if you exceed the numbers, not by how much.
"This would be like carrying a 2.5W CW laser with you!"
Huh?
"Now consider that we can get about 50mW of CW power, and that would, with compression, give a nominal level of 12500
same result."
pulse length for all your math. Why 1? Why not an hour? Why not a day? Why not the full 6000 hours average lifespan of the
core diode? Are you just confusing energy with power? You are also equating multiple pulses with combined damage
thresholds.
500mw average power. For a laser diode designed specifically for pulsing I would expect a several fold increase in allowed
power levels for a short pulse over CW - at much reduced average power. This would be somewhat short of the 6 orders of
magnetude you seem to be expecting. Other forms of laser will have limits with different causes but similar conclusions.

Ok, I never said that compressing the pulse from a standard laser diode was going to be trivial. The fact that it is, is neither
here nor there.
It is a fact that you can get sharp, high power pulses from diode lasers. This will not work from a DPSS laser, but will with a
bare diode.
It is also a fact that the shorter, higher energy pulses damage the eye whilst requiring a lot less electrical energy in.
Now for a portable weapon, you will not be able to run a 5W weapon for long off a battery, and a pair of AA batteries would last
for a few seconds CW.
So, what we do is we turn the laser on at those powers for very short times, in the order of tenths or less of a second. The
shorter the pulse, to an extent, the more energy you can pour into it without burning out the laser diode, and the longer the
batteries will last. This is called the Duty Cycle.
If you remove the word 'peak' then that looks in the right ball park.
Yes, you could wrongly remove the word "peak". However, given that you will be switching the laser quite quickly, you will be
biasing the voltage in the regular way, and holding it just below threshold for the duration of the string of pulses, as this
ensures a faster response from the laser, and stops transients from reversing the voltage across the junction, killing the
diode. Given this, you will have a beam of microwatts punctuated by pulses of far higher power.
If you want to know if pulse compression works, go read about industry cutting diodes. They run at higher powers, using
arrays, heavy cooling and pulses! They are pulsed very fast, at quite a high duty cycle, but the reason they are pulsed is
mostly to do with the higher peak power to the target, which causes more heat at the target, causing rapid thermal effects,
and blowing small holes all the way along, rather than a slow melting.
Compare a 3 bar electric fire with a cutting laser at 3kW input power. You get about the same effective heat out of both, but
the CO2 runs at about 40% efficiency. So you get a nice beam for cutting things. You focus this down to a small spot, and cut
with it. You also focus it in time. More energy arriving per unit time does more damage. The 3 bar fire is never, ever going to
melt the steel plate. The 3kW laser as CW is going to warm it enough for welding, perhaps. Turned into a 10% duty cycle
throwing out 30kW in 10% of the time (yes, I know the units are wrong at this stage - it is a 30kJ pulse) causes far more
energy absorption at the target, which boils it instantly, and it explosively boils away. This expansion is massive damage in
anything that will not withstand well a sudden high pressure event.
Take a look at http://www.sslasers.com/Laser_Diode_Arrays.htm - every one of the arrays on there are 10% duty cycle pulsed
diode arrays. Hunt around. All the highest power diodes are pulsed, and they are used for cutting and welding. If they got the
same results from a DC laser, why mess about making a pulsed one?
Should we be impressed? Are we to assume this is eclipse without sunglasses territory or Exodos in Oedipus Rex? As far as the
ANSI standard goes its if you exceed the numbers, not by how much.You are seriously telling me that you think that
exceeding is the only target? So you get hit by a megajoule pulse, and you think it would do the same eye damage as a
10mW CW laser because it is a few nanoseconds? Are you winding me up?
pulse length for all your math. Why 1?
Because 1W == 1J/s, of course.
Why not an hour? Why not a day? Why not the full 6000 hours average lifespan of the core diode? Because a Q-switch or other
pulse compressor to do that has yet to be invented.
Are you just confusing energy with power? You are also equating multiple pulses with combined damage thresholds.No, I'm
not. I am stating a well known fact. A short high power pulse does more damage than the same energy spread out. This is
right, it is common knowledge, and it tallies with normal life. If I accelerate your body with a short pulse (1ms) of power at
1000m/s, you are dead, even if you only wind up moving at 1m/s. A 10m/s acceleration for 1 second would leave you at 10
m/s, but alive.
500mw average power. That's why I say "Let's compress it further, but fire it ten times a second, rather than once, and we get
the same result." Obviously I was talking about keeping the same average power.
For a laser diode designed specifically for pulsing I would expect a several fold increase in allowed power levels for a short
pulse over CW - at much reduced average power. This would be somewhat short of the 6 orders of magnitude you seem to be
expecting. Other forms of laser will have limits with different causes but similar conclusions.
The last bit is not noteworthy for being wrong. It is correct. You take the nominal maximum CW power for the diode, say
50mW, and you turn it into a set of compressed pulses, for the reasons above. The higher energy per unit time, which gives
us an indication of the damage to target from the figures you gave for eye-safe beams, shows that this is a more effective
way to damage the eye. In fact, if you cut your pulses down to what you state is the most damaging band, you will save a lot
of energy.
Yes, the diode gets less efficient at higher pulse powers and shorter pulse times. You need to select your diode for this
application. However, you might be using a dye saturation Q switch, or a mode-locked laser, or a chirped pulse compression
fibre, or whatever, running off a CW laser of almost any type.
However, compressing the pulse from CW down to higher (peak pulse) powers works. Industry do it all the time. There is a hell
of a lot of research into it, too. http://physics.unr.edu/grad/aguilar/presentation/physics709fall01.pdf is a fairly good paper on
it.

Ok, I never said that compressing the pulse from a standard laser diode was going to be trivial. The fact that it is, is neither
here nor there.
It is a fact that you can get sharp, high power pulses from diode lasers. This will not work from a DPSS laser, but will with a
bare diode.
It is also a fact that the shorter, higher energy pulses damage the eye whilst requiring a lot less electrical energy in.
Now for a portable weapon, you will not be able to run a 5W weapon for long off a battery, and a pair of AA batteries would last
for a few seconds CW.
So, what we do is we turn the laser on at those powers for very short times, in the order of tenths or less of a second. The
batteries will last. This is called the Duty Cycle.
If you remove the word 'peak' then that looks in the right ball park.
Yes, you could wrongly remove the word "peak". However, given that you will be switching the laser quite quickly, you will be
biasing the voltage in the regular way, and holding it just below threshold for the duration of the string of pulses, as this
ensures a faster response from the laser, and stops transients from reversing the voltage across the junction, killing the
diode. Given this, you will have a beam of microwatts punctuated by pulses of far higher power.
If you want to know if pulse compression works, go read about industry cutting diodes. They run at higher powers, using
arrays, heavy cooling and pulses! They are pulsed very fast, at quite a high duty cycle, but the reason they are pulsed is
mostly to do with the higher peak power to the target, which causes more heat at the target, causing rapid thermal effects,
and blowing small holes all the way along, rather than a slow melting.
Compare a 3 bar electric fire with a cutting laser at 3kW input power. You get about the same effective heat out of both, but
the CO2 runs at about 40% efficiency. So you get a nice beam for cutting things. You focus this down to a small spot, and cut
with it. You also focus it in time. More energy arriving per unit time does more damage. The 3 bar fire is never, ever going to
melt the steel plate. The 3kW laser as CW is going to warm it enough for welding, perhaps. Turned into a 10% duty cycle
throwing out 30kW in 10% of the time (yes, I know the units are wrong at this stage - it is a 30kJ pulse) causes far more
energy absorption at the target, which boils it instantly, and it explosively boils away. This expansion is massive damage in
anything that will not withstand well a sudden high pressure event.
Take a look at http://www.sslasers.com/Laser_Diode_Arrays.htm - every one of the arrays on there are 10% duty cycle pulsed
diode arrays. Hunt around. All the highest power diodes are pulsed, and they are used for cutting and welding. If they got the
same results from a DC laser, why mess about making a pulsed one?
Should we be impressed? Are we to assume this is eclipse without sunglasses territory or Exodos in Oedipus Rex? As far as the
ANSI standard goes its if you exceed the numbers, not by how much.You are seriously telling me that you think that
exceeding is the only target? So you get hit by a megajoule pulse, and you think it would do the same eye damage as a
10mW CW laser because it is a few nanoseconds? Are you winding me up?
pulse length for all your math. Why 1?
Because 1W == 1J/s, of course.
Why not an hour? Why not a day? Why not the full 6000 hours average lifespan of the core diode? Because a Q-switch or other
pulse compressor to do that has yet to be invented.
Are you just confusing energy with power? You are also equating multiple pulses with combined damage thresholds.No, I'm
not. I am stating a well known fact. A short high power pulse does more damage than the same energy spread out. This is
right, it is common knowledge, and it tallies with normal life. If I accelerate your body with a short pulse (1ms) of power at
1000m/s, you are dead, even if you only wind up moving at 1m/s. A 10m/s acceleration for 1 second would leave you at 10
m/s, but alive.
500mw average power. That's why I say "Let's compress it further, but fire it ten times a second, rather than once, and we get
the same result." Obviously I was talking about keeping the same average power.
For a laser diode designed specifically for pulsing I would expect a several fold increase in allowed power levels for a short
pulse over CW - at much reduced average power. This would be somewhat short of the 6 orders of magnitude you seem to be
expecting. Other forms of laser will have limits with different causes but similar conclusions.
The last bit is not noteworthy for being wrong. It is correct. You take the nominal maximum CW power for the diode, say
50mW, and you turn it into a set of compressed pulses, for the reasons above. The higher energy per unit time, which gives
us an indication of the damage to target from the figures you gave for eye-safe beams, shows that this is a more effective
way to damage the eye. In fact, if you cut your pulses down to what you state is the most damaging band, you will save a lot
of energy.
Yes, the diode gets less efficient at higher pulse powers and shorter pulse times. You need to select your diode for this
application. However, you might be using a dye saturation Q switch, or a mode-locked laser, or a chirped pulse compression
fibre, or whatever, running off a CW laser of almost any type.
However, compressing the pulse from CW down to higher (peak pulse) powers works. Industry do it all the time. There is a hell
of a lot of research into it, too. http://physics.unr.edu/grad/aguilar/presentation/physics709fall01.pdf is a fairly good paper on
it.

"Ok, I never said that compressing the pulse from a standard laser diode was going to be trivial. "
I agree, in fact you havn't provided any evidence it can be done at all. Its a little like working out the maths for killing people
by making all the hydrogen atoms in their body fuse to helium. Even if you get the maths right, you are still no closer to
actually doing it.
"It is a fact that you can get sharp, high power pulses from diode lasers. "
How sharp, 1 second? 1 nanosecond? What diode lasers? How high a power? This is a meaningless statement without numbers
let alone an actual 'fact'. In addition 'high power' is not a useful term as Ive allready shown, with or without numbers.
"It is also a fact that the shorter, higher energy pulses damage the eye whilst requiring a lot less electrical energy in."
Another 'fact', how much shorter? How much higher? How much damage? How much less energy in?
But wait, Ive already provided examples of that information, that show that shorter pulses do equivalent eye-damage for less
energy only to certain limits, so why are you stating this exactly?
Next problem, the statement is actually wrong. Not just inaccurate, missleading or true only under certain conditions, actually
self-contradictory. Irrispective of how much shorter the pulses are, if they are higher in energy you require more electrical
energy in. Its a rule of thumb that I like to refer to as the conservation of mass/energy law.
"Now for a portable weapon, you will not be able to run a 5W weapon for long off a battery, and a pair of AA batteries would
last for a few seconds CW."
By 5W weapon, I assume you mean a 5W laser beam rather than a weapon consuming 5W. Laser diodes can deliver about
half of the power as emitted light so 10W. Lets assume rechargeable batteries, NiMH nowerdays can do 1900 to 2500mah
claimed - lets assume 2000mah, 2.4v total or 4.8 Watt.Hours leading to a running time of a little under half an hour. Now I
suppose half an hour is a certain number of seconds but a 'few'?
"So, what we do is we turn the laser on at those powers for very short times, in the order of tenths or less of a second. "
Ok, now its tenths of a second, in your last post you were doing maths to the tune of 1 microsecond. Could 5 orders of
magnetude change in heart be anything to do with the 10% duty cycle quoted on the page later? I think it might.
"The shorter the pulse, to an extent, the more energy you can pour into it without burning out the laser diode, and the longer
the batteries will last."
No to both.
"This is called the Duty Cycle."
No, Duty cycle is very simply the percentage of time the diodes are turned on. Clearly though this is where the 0.1 second
comes from in your new estimate. You take 1 second by default, take the 10% duty cycle and end up with 0.1 second. To all
intents and purposes its wrong, in that rated power, 10% duty cycle for 0.1 second on will burn out the diodes you are taking
the data from. Reasonable numbers would be based on 100Hz pulses resulting in 1 ms pulse length for the same 10% duty
cycle and without the embarrasment of killing some very expensive kit.
"Yes, you could wrongly remove the word "peak"."
1mj is the pulse energy, it is independant of time, the word 'peak' cannot be applied to it.
"punctuated by pulses of far higher power"
Yes, peak power, which is not relavent anyway, not 'peak energy' which is dimensionally incorrect.
"If you want to know if pulse compression works, go read about industry cutting diodes. "
Fibre coupled diodes are used to a very very limited extent for welding and cutting, they are not pulsed to the point they blast
holes in the metal, this is simply not possible. Mostly I think you are digging up some info on high power diode arrays and
assuming they do the actual cutting. The diode arrays do not cut and cannot be 'pulse compressed' to the extent they will
abilate metal. All they are is a replacement for a flashlamp in the actual cutting laser itself, for example Nd:YAG.
"They run at higher powers, using arrays, heavy cooling and pulses! "
The pulses are not the limiting factor in the damage caused to the target, the rod they are powering is.
"They are pulsed very fast, at quite a high duty cycle"
Typically 100Hz, 10% Duty cycle. That the Duty cycle is high is because they cannot tolerate significantly higher power for even
a much shorter period of time. This fundamentally undermines your argument, its a single order of magnetude 'compression'
at the very most. In terms of actual peak pulse/CW power this is probably an overestimation due to the specific application. In
other words with cooling designed for CW operation the bars could probably be run with significantly higher average power.
There follows a paragraph on why higher power does more damage in the field of cutting equipment. Again you make claims
with no evidence, data or applicable limits to something that seems obvious. Regardless of truth, it is not relavent and not
worth expounding on or correcting.
"throwing out 30kW in 10% of the time (yes, I know the units are wrong at this stage - it is a 30kJ pulse) causes far more
energy absorption at the target, "
Energy = Power * Time. You cannot determine a pulse energy from a peak power and a duty cycle.
"every one of the arrays on there are 10% duty cycle pulsed diode arrays. "
No, they arnt. Some are even CW. They are all arrays designed for diode pumped applications, some must contain thousands
of actual lasers.
"All the highest power diodes are pulsed"
Again, obvious and irrelavent. The highest power of anything is pulsed but peak power is not what does the work, energy is.
"You are seriously telling me that you think that exceeding is the only target? "
When all you have is a threshold its meaningless to discuss by how much something exceeds it. We have no frame of
reference for interpreting the numbers, aside from being the standard for safety we dont even know what the threshold
actually refers to, its only useful to compare them with eachother. 250x the threshold is meaningless, 2500x the threshold is
bigger but equally meaningless. What is the point in even doing the maths if you have no way of understanding what the
answer means?
"So you get hit by a megajoule pulse, and you think it would do the same eye damage as a 10mW CW laser because it is a
few nanoseconds?"
Mindreader! Yes Jack, clearly thats exactly what I was stating, including that the former example has no time period or
wavelength the latter has no energy or time period or wavelength and the phrase 'it is a few nanoseconds' applies only to time
periods, how clever of you to decode it and how helpful for other people reading the thread.
"Because 1W == 1J/s, of course."
I see, you choose 1 second because 1 watt is 1 joule over 1 second. But then 1 watt is also 2 joules over 2 seconds, or 0.1J
over 0.1 sec. Why not use Pi seconds on the basis 1W is Pi Joules over Pi seconds? Mmmm Pie.
"Because a Q-switch or other pulse compressor to do that has yet to be invented."
This is my point, a Q switch or other pulse compressor that will do 1 second has yet to be invented also.
". I am stating a well known fact. A short high power pulse does more damage than the same energy spread out. "
Yes, you are stating it again and again and again. We have allready established limits for when it is and is not true in this
application. Now if your later argument is true, that you are pulsing 10x the rate for the same power, then your energy per
pulse drops by a factor of 10, and thus the pulse power for any given length of pulse also drops by a factor of 10. This is not
increasing peak power to do more damage as you claim. You have your wires crossed somewhere.
"You take the nominal maximum CW power for the diode, say 50mW, and you turn it into a set of compressed pulses"
How many pulses, over what period of time? It affects the answer and you don't state this.
"The higher energy per unit time, which gives us an indication of the damage to target from the figures you gave for eye-safe
beams,"
No, energy per unit time does not. Energy and duration seperatly do.
"shows that this is a more effective way to damage the eye"
This does not follow, it might be true.
"the diode gets less efficient at higher pulse powers and shorter pulse times."
This is not a primary problem, diode lasers are very limited in terms of peak power.
"You need to select your diode for this application. However, you might be using a dye saturation Q switch, or a mode-locked
laser, or a chirped pulse compression fibre, or whatever, running off a CW laser of almost any type."
You cannot Q switch a diode laser, dye saturation or otherwise. You cannot modelock a diode laser, you cannot use chirped
pulse compression. You are using these terms without understanding to what they apply.
"However, compressing the pulse from CW down to higher (peak pulse) powers works. Industry do it all the time. "
Noone takes the output of a CW laser and compresses it into pulses. Noone.
"There is a hell of a lot of research into it, too. http://physics.unr.edu/grad/aguilar...cs709fall01.pdf is a fairly good paper on
it."
This is not a good paper for this application, aside from anything else it reads like an undergraduate project. It probably is an
undergraduate project. It explains some very basic concepts in increasing pulse power. Nowhere - *NOWHERE* - does it talk
about pulse energy and all the methods explained cripple pulse energy in the pursuit of high peak power. This is useless for
making cutting tools or weapons.

"Ok, I never said that compressing the pulse from a standard laser diode was going to be trivial. "
I agree, in fact you havn't provided any evidence it can be done at all. Its a little like working out the maths for killing people
by making all the hydrogen atoms in their body fuse to helium. Even if you get the maths right, you are still no closer to
actually doing it.
"It is a fact that you can get sharp, high power pulses from diode lasers. "
How sharp, 1 second? 1 nanosecond? What diode lasers? How high a power? This is a meaningless statement without numbers
let alone an actual 'fact'. In addition 'high power' is not a useful term as Ive allready shown, with or without numbers.
"It is also a fact that the shorter, higher energy pulses damage the eye whilst requiring a lot less electrical energy in."
Another 'fact', how much shorter? How much higher? How much damage? How much less energy in?
But wait, Ive already provided examples of that information, that show that shorter pulses do equivalent eye-damage for less
energy only to certain limits, so why are you stating this exactly?
Next problem, the statement is actually wrong. Not just inaccurate, missleading or true only under certain conditions, actually
self-contradictory. Irrispective of how much shorter the pulses are, if they are higher in energy you require more electrical
energy in. Its a rule of thumb that I like to refer to as the conservation of mass/energy law.
"Now for a portable weapon, you will not be able to run a 5W weapon for long off a battery, and a pair of AA batteries would
last for a few seconds CW."
suppose half an hour is a certain number of seconds but a 'few'?
"So, what we do is we turn the laser on at those powers for very short times, in the order of tenths or less of a second. "
Ok, now its tenths of a second, in your last post you were doing maths to the tune of 1 microsecond. Could 5 orders of
magnetude change in heart be anything to do with the 10% duty cycle quoted on the page later? I think it might.
"The shorter the pulse, to an extent, the more energy you can pour into it without burning out the laser diode, and the longer
the batteries will last."
No to both.
"This is called the Duty Cycle."
No, Duty cycle is very simply the percentage of time the diodes are turned on. Clearly though this is where the 0.1 second
comes from in your new estimate. You take 1 second by default, take the 10% duty cycle and end up with 0.1 second. To all
intents and purposes its wrong, in that rated power, 10% duty cycle for 0.1 second on will burn out the diodes you are taking
the data from. Reasonable numbers would be based on 100Hz pulses resulting in 1 ms pulse length for the same 10% duty
cycle and without the embarrasment of killing some very expensive kit.
"Yes, you could wrongly remove the word "peak"."
1mj is the pulse energy, it is independant of time, the word 'peak' cannot be applied to it.
"punctuated by pulses of far higher power"
Yes, peak power, which is not relavent anyway, not 'peak energy' which is dimensionally incorrect.
"If you want to know if pulse compression works, go read about industry cutting diodes. "
Fibre coupled diodes are used to a very very limited extent for welding and cutting, they are not pulsed to the point they blast
holes in the metal, this is simply not possible. Mostly I think you are digging up some info on high power diode arrays and
assuming they do the actual cutting. The diode arrays do not cut and cannot be 'pulse compressed' to the extent they will
abilate metal. All they are is a replacement for a flashlamp in the actual cutting laser itself, for example Nd:YAG.
"They run at higher powers, using arrays, heavy cooling and pulses! "
The pulses are not the limiting factor in the damage caused to the target, the rod they are powering is.
"They are pulsed very fast, at quite a high duty cycle"
Typically 100Hz, 10% Duty cycle. That the Duty cycle is high is because they cannot tolerate significantly higher power for even
a much shorter period of time. This fundamentally undermines your argument, its a single order of magnetude 'compression'
at the very most. In terms of actual peak pulse/CW power this is probably an overestimation due to the specific application. In
other words with cooling designed for CW operation the bars could probably be run with significantly higher average power.
There follows a paragraph on why higher power does more damage in the field of cutting equipment. Again you make claims
with no evidence, data or applicable limits to something that seems obvious. Regardless of truth, it is not relavent and not
worth expounding on or correcting.
"throwing out 30kW in 10% of the time (yes, I know the units are wrong at this stage - it is a 30kJ pulse) causes far more
energy absorption at the target, "
Energy = Power * Time. You cannot determine a pulse energy from a peak power and a duty cycle.
"every one of the arrays on there are 10% duty cycle pulsed diode arrays. "
No, they arnt. Some are even CW. They are all arrays designed for diode pumped applications, some must contain thousands
of actual lasers.
"All the highest power diodes are pulsed"
Again, obvious and irrelavent. The highest power of anything is pulsed but peak power is not what does the work, energy is.
"You are seriously telling me that you think that exceeding is the only target? "
When all you have is a threshold its meaningless to discuss by how much something exceeds it. We have no frame of
reference for interpreting the numbers, aside from being the standard for safety we dont even know what the threshold
actually refers to, its only useful to compare them with eachother. 250x the threshold is meaningless, 2500x the threshold is
bigger but equally meaningless. What is the point in even doing the maths if you have no way of understanding what the
answer means?
few nanoseconds?"
periods, how clever of you to decode it and how helpful for other people reading the thread.
"Because 1W == 1J/s, of course."
I see, you choose 1 second because 1 watt is 1 joule over 1 second. But then 1 watt is also 2 joules over 2 seconds, or 0.1J
over 0.1 sec. Why not use Pi seconds on the basis 1W is Pi Joules over Pi seconds? Mmmm Pie.
"Because a Q-switch or other pulse compressor to do that has yet to be invented."
This is my point, a Q switch or other pulse compressor that will do 1 second has yet to be invented also.
". I am stating a well known fact. A short high power pulse does more damage than the same energy spread out. "
Yes, you are stating it again and again and again. We have allready established limits for when it is and is not true in this
application. Now if your later argument is true, that you are pulsing 10x the rate for the same power, then your energy per
pulse drops by a factor of 10, and thus the pulse power for any given length of pulse also drops by a factor of 10. This is not
increasing peak power to do more damage as you claim. You have your wires crossed somewhere.
"You take the nominal maximum CW power for the diode, say 50mW, and you turn it into a set of compressed pulses"
How many pulses, over what period of time? It affects the answer and you don't state this.
"The higher energy per unit time, which gives us an indication of the damage to target from the figures you gave for eye-safe
beams,"
No, energy per unit time does not. Energy and duration seperatly do.
"shows that this is a more effective way to damage the eye"
This does not follow, it might be true.
"the diode gets less efficient at higher pulse powers and shorter pulse times."
This is not a primary problem, diode lasers are very limited in terms of peak power.
pulse compression. You are using these terms without understanding to what they apply.
"However, compressing the pulse from CW down to higher (peak pulse) powers works. Industry do it all the time. "
Noone takes the output of a CW laser and compresses it into pulses. Noone.
"There is a hell of a lot of research into it, too. http://physics.unr.edu/grad/aguilar...cs709fall01.pdf is a fairly good paper on
it."
This is not a good paper for this application, aside from anything else it reads like an undergraduate project. It probably is an
undergraduate project. It explains some very basic concepts in increasing pulse power. Nowhere - *NOWHERE* - does it talk
about pulse energy and all the methods explained cripple pulse energy in the pursuit of high peak power. This is useless for
making cutting tools or weapons.

suppose half an hour is a certain number of seconds but a 'few'?Given that my 50mW diode laser (DPSS) lasts for half an hour
on to TRIPLE A batteries... but anyway. Yes, you are correct on that point. You could run in CW for maybe half an hour."The
batteries will last."No to both.So your circuits use as much power when off as when on? The reason you can put higher electrical
power into the diode is because it is quite a short time. Too long, and you will have too much electrical power turning into heat.
This kills your diode very rapidly. The size of the junctions are generally micrometers, so you have to let them cool a little
between shots, so they don't fry, and the heat has a little time to conduct away.
This is, in fact, a perfect analogy to why a short laser pulse does damage at a higher level than a longer pulse of the same
total energy.
few nanoseconds?"
periods, how clever of you to decode it and how helpful for other people reading the thread.You are obviously not well read on
this stuff, or you are being obstructive.
If you think that shining a laser beam onto your foot, of a safe level, for a day, is ever, ever going to have the same effect as
if you compress that pulse, you are plainly, obviously wrong. I wasn't trying to write an entire paper for a group of graduates.
Higher energy pulses give higher damage to targets. Heat that conducts away from the target before the end of the exposure
is wasted energy.
Material processing uses high power pulses to avoid a heat affected zone. This is true at marginal powers, where otherwise a
lot of energy would be used to heat around the target before the melting point was reached, due to conduction.
Therefore, the pulse is short and high powered. This melts the target almost instantly, and heat phonons do not have time to
travel during the pulse. The initial melting also helps with absorption at IR wavelengths, especially in metals. The rest of the
pulse is then absorbed, and the boiling point is reached, causing the material to enter the gaseous phase, and this increases
the pressure dramatically. The plume of boiling metal explodes out of the hole. The next pulse comes down just next to it,
and repeats the effect. Energy is also not wasted by pumping more energy into the plume of waste metal vapour.
With a CW laser of enough power, you could do this with CW. However, it would be far less efficient, would require higher power
cooling, more batteries, etc. and would leave a bigger HAZ.
pulse compression. You are using these terms without understanding to what they apply.You are clearly being akward here.
What part of "running off a CW laser of almost any type." did you miss?
As I said, I'm not writing a paper to present to an undergraduate class, full of caveats. I am writing to inform the members
here that they can do this fairly easily, and get good results if they perform a fairly simple modification. That paper was one I
found that could introduce you to the ideas behind pulse compression, something you seem to understand a little about. It is
a graduate paper, and it appears to my eye to be correct.
Your statement "Noone takes the output from CW and compresses it into pulses. Noone." shows me that you didn't even read
the first slide of the paper I linked. No-one, anywhere, has a CW laser capable, for example, of the magnetic field strengths
attainable by a femto-second pulsed laser. HOWEVER, I am not saying that we should try to get these out of diode lasers,
before you jump to that conclusion!
I am saying that, for the eye damage threshold figures you gave, a pulse compression down to the tens or hundreds of
microseconds will give better eye damage results than the CW beam alone, if we increase the current through the diode at
those times. It will also let the batteries last for far longer.
It is a well known fact that most diodes can be modulated into the MHz range, and even the worst ones can easily get to kHz.
A higher energy 10 microsecond pulse is viable, will do more damage, and, if repeated every 1/10th of a second, will extend
the battery life by about 10 times.
Yes, I have ommitted to take account of things like capacitor losses, reduced efficiency of the diode, etc. but this is not a
symposium of laser physicists! No-one cares about the minutae here, they mostly care about how to make a better laser
weapon.
To anyone undecided - when using a microwave oven, you get hot spots. This is because the energy tends to focus on one
area. This will boil or burn food in one area, whilst the next area remains cold, as food tend to be fairly non-conductive.
If we reduce the power in, and spread it out over time, we find the food gets warm all the way through, as the heat has more
time to conduct through the food.
Now imagine if we "saved up" the time when the microwave was off, and put it all into the food in one short pulse. You would
boil the food, whilst the food around it would remain icy cold.
Short pulses boil rapidly, long ones boil slowly, CW warms (if we have the same average power in over time.) Which is better
for attacking something that behaves like food?

suppose half an hour is a certain number of seconds but a 'few'?Given that my 50mW diode laser (DPSS) lasts for half an hour
on to TRIPLE A batteries... but anyway. Yes, you are correct on that point. You could run in CW for maybe half an hour."The
batteries will last."No to both.So your circuits use as much power when off as when on? The reason you can put higher electrical
power into the diode is because it is quite a short time. Too long, and you will have too much electrical power turning into heat.
This kills your diode very rapidly. The size of the junctions are generally micrometers, so you have to let them cool a little
between shots, so they don't fry, and the heat has a little time to conduct away.
This is, in fact, a perfect analogy to why a short laser pulse does damage at a higher level than a longer pulse of the same
total energy.
few nanoseconds?"
periods, how clever of you to decode it and how helpful for other people reading the thread.You are obviously not well read on
this stuff, or you are being obstructive.
If you think that shining a laser beam onto your foot, of a safe level, for a day, is ever, ever going to have the same effect as
if you compress that pulse, you are plainly, obviously wrong. I wasn't trying to write an entire paper for a group of graduates.
Higher energy pulses give higher damage to targets. Heat that conducts away from the target before the end of the exposure
is wasted energy.
Material processing uses high power pulses to avoid a heat affected zone. This is true at marginal powers, where otherwise a
lot of energy would be used to heat around the target before the melting point was reached, due to conduction.
Therefore, the pulse is short and high powered. This melts the target almost instantly, and heat phonons do not have time to
travel during the pulse. The initial melting also helps with absorption at IR wavelengths, especially in metals. The rest of the
pulse is then absorbed, and the boiling point is reached, causing the material to enter the gaseous phase, and this increases
the pressure dramatically. The plume of boiling metal explodes out of the hole. The next pulse comes down just next to it,
and repeats the effect. Energy is also not wasted by pumping more energy into the plume of waste metal vapour.
With a CW laser of enough power, you could do this with CW. However, it would be far less efficient, would require higher power
cooling, more batteries, etc. and would leave a bigger HAZ.
pulse compression. You are using these terms without understanding to what they apply.You are clearly being akward here.
What part of "running off a CW laser of almost any type." did you miss?
As I said, I'm not writing a paper to present to an undergraduate class, full of caveats. I am writing to inform the members
here that they can do this fairly easily, and get good results if they perform a fairly simple modification. That paper was one I
found that could introduce you to the ideas behind pulse compression, something you seem to understand a little about. It is
a graduate paper, and it appears to my eye to be correct.
Your statement "Noone takes the output from CW and compresses it into pulses. Noone." shows me that you didn't even read
the first slide of the paper I linked. No-one, anywhere, has a CW laser capable, for example, of the magnetic field strengths
attainable by a femto-second pulsed laser. HOWEVER, I am not saying that we should try to get these out of diode lasers,
before you jump to that conclusion!
I am saying that, for the eye damage threshold figures you gave, a pulse compression down to the tens or hundreds of
microseconds will give better eye damage results than the CW beam alone, if we increase the current through the diode at
those times. It will also let the batteries last for far longer.
It is a well known fact that most diodes can be modulated into the MHz range, and even the worst ones can easily get to kHz.
A higher energy 10 microsecond pulse is viable, will do more damage, and, if repeated every 1/10th of a second, will extend
the battery life by about 10 times.
Yes, I have ommitted to take account of things like capacitor losses, reduced efficiency of the diode, etc. but this is not a
symposium of laser physicists! No-one cares about the minutae here, they mostly care about how to make a better laser
weapon.
To anyone undecided - when using a microwave oven, you get hot spots. This is because the energy tends to focus on one
area. This will boil or burn food in one area, whilst the next area remains cold, as food tend to be fairly non-conductive.
If we reduce the power in, and spread it out over time, we find the food gets warm all the way through, as the heat has more
time to conduct through the food.
Now imagine if we "saved up" the time when the microwave was off, and put it all into the food in one short pulse. You would
Short pulses boil rapidly, long ones boil slowly, CW warms (if we have the same average power in over time.) Which is better
for attacking something that behaves like food?

J>Given that my 50mW diode laser (DPSS) lasts for half an hour on to TRIPLE A batteries...
If it is a 50mw diode laser then there is something seriously wrong with the design.
J>The shorter the pulse, to an extent, the more energy you can pour into it without burning out the laser diode, and the
longer the batteries will last.
M>No to both.
J>So your circuits use as much power when off as when on?
You used the term 'energy' not power and that makes both statements wrong.
J>The reason you can put higher electrical power into the diode is because it is quite a short time. Too long, and you will have
too much electrical power turning into heat. This kills your diode very rapidly. The size of the junctions are generally
micrometers, so you have to let them cool a little between shots, so they don't fry, and the heat has a little time to conduct
away.
You are providing no information. Replace the word 'diode' with 'motor' and 'junction' with 'coil' and nothing else changes, its
just as intrinsically right or wrong as it was before.
J>This is, in fact, a perfect analogy to why a short laser pulse does damage at a higher level than a longer pulse of the same
total energy.
I agree, but furthur its an excellent analogy as to why shortening the pulse of laser diodes cannot be used in this way for
cutting metal. If the diode CW cannot be used to melt the metal then you have a degree of parity between the lasing material
and the volume of metal to be cut. Anything you can do to increase the damage to the target will also affect the active volume
of the laser in the same way. The only way out of it is to increase the volume of the laser (bigger or more of them, or to
compress the energy after it has left (typically making them pumps in another laser alltogether)).
J>You are obviously not well read on this stuff, or you are being obstructive.
Can you not tell the difference? Your question was farcical even ignoring the clear implications of the data I posted, I
responded in kind.
Pointless underlining of things I have allready agreed with skipped. What matters is how relavent your example is to your
argument.
J>You are clearly being akward here. What part of "running off a CW laser of almost any type." did you miss?
Probably the part where you admit 'almost any type' fails to apply to the majority of laser types or the specific example you
chose for the discussion.
J>I am writing to inform the members here that they can do this fairly easily, and get good results if they perform a fairly
simple modification.
The crux of the matter, and I am pointing out why this will not work. Were these purposes somehow unclear in previous posts?
J>That paper was one I found that could introduce you to the ideas behind pulse compression, something you seem to
understand a little about.
Yes, and none of the ideas in the paper are simple modifications, and none will work on your example, the diode laser. Thus
the paper does not aid people in trying to do what you have suggested, and nor does it support your methods.
J>Your statement "Noone takes the output from CW and compresses it into pulses. Noone." shows me that you didn't even
read the first slide of the paper
There are no examples of CW lasers mentioned in the paper. I'm not suggesting noone uses pulsed lasers, this is totally
different.
J>I am saying that, for the eye damage threshold figures you gave, a pulse compression down to the tens or hundreds of
microseconds will give better eye damage results than the CW beam alone,
'Down to' implies a 'from', without which its feasability cannot be determined.
J>if we increase the current through the diode at those times. It will also let the batteries last for far longer
This does not follow as written, but I know what you are trying to say. Choose either damage or battery power criteria, you cant
play both cards, only one or the other can be optimised fully.
J>It is a well known fact that most diodes can be modulated into the MHz range
Modulated does not equate to being overdriven. Modulation is dependant mainly on the stimulated emission lifetime, which is
in the sub nanosecond range for a laser diode. GHz modulation is feasable.
J>A higher energy 10 microsecond pulse is viable, will do more damage,
Another meaningless statement, does 'higher' mean 1% more or 100x more? Higher than what? More damage than what? How
much more? What are you actually compairing the 10 microsecond pulse *to*?
J>Yes, I have ommitted to take account of things like capacitor losses, reduced efficiency of the diode
Trivial things, what have you taken into account though? Anything? Do results based on guessed numbers have any more
meaning than guessed numbers themselves?
J>To anyone undecided
Real world physics does not depend on majority opinion. Is this why you make statements with no content? Attempt to show
something works according to physics or don't bother arguing.
J>when using a microwave oven, you get hot spots. This is because the energy tends to focus on one area. This will boil or
burn food in one area, whilst the next area remains cold, as food tend to be fairly non-conductive.
J>If we reduce the power in, and spread it out over time, we find the food gets warm all the way through, as the heat has
more time to conduct through the food.
J>Now imagine if we "saved up" the time when the microwave was off, and put it all into the food in one short pulse. You would
You are still hung up on this storing up the energy and releasing it in one go for more damage. Look 5 or 6 posts previously
and we have actual data for this. Whats more you leave it open to assumption that the shorter the pulse the more damage
with no limits. You completely ignore the only parts of the problem actually open to interpretation, fortunatly, this can be
added.
Lets assume some actual numbers for our example and pick out trends that result. Lets assume heat in our pizza travels at
1cm/second and our spot size is 1cm. Lets also assume a thin pizza, and that the depth is heated all the way through, I'll
take Pi to be equal to 3 to make the maths easier. Ok, if we heat the middle for 10 seconds its clear that the whole of a 20cm
pizza would be heated. Not that evenly but some energy would go everywhere, for an equivlent flat hot area of 150ish cm^2.
This comes from the area of a circle Pi*r^2 for a 10cm radius pizza assuming that the heated area ranging from 0 to x
degrees is equivalent in energy loss terms to half that area at a flat x degrees. This gives us our energy in the hotspot as
being around 0.5% of the total spread out for 0.5% of the temperature, and thus effect, we could in theory get.
Now, how about for 1 second? We get a 2cm circle of heated area ramping up to the 1cm hotspot for an equivalent flat area of
about 3 cm^2 + the 0.75 cm^2 hot spot (which we can assume to be thermally flat itself). We now have around 20% of the
energy in the hotspot area, so 40x the energy density for a pulse 1/10th as long. Thats a big effect, does it continue?
How about for 0.1 second? We get a 1mm leak around the hotspot and the math now gives us 82% of the energy in the
hotspot compaired to the total. An order of magnetude change in pulse length and now only a factor of just over 4 change in
effect.
For 0.01 second? 98%.
Is it really worth going any furthur? Theres only 2% total improvement to get. Below a 0.1sec pulse length in this example the
result is determined far more by a factor of 2 pulse energy than orders of magnetude change in pulse length.
Requirements. For a useful effect the pulse energy must be enough to boil the hot spot pizza area. Below that energy no
change in pulse length however extreme will see anything happen. Pulse energy determines the limit of what can happen for a
given active volume, pulse length determines what percentage of that energy stays at the target.
For us to reduce the pulse length to 1/10th and keep the same pulse energy we have to know that the magnetron will handle
an increase in power by an order of magnetude. It has to operate normally at 10x power output without blowing up or breaking
down for the whole duration of the pulse. For a step where the power throughput is less than parity, same energy, shorter time
period, we need to know alowed power levels to determine if the saving on leaked energy exceeds the reduced pulse energy
for a bigger effect.
Moving this over to the laser problem we don't need to do the same math, as we are given the time constant fairly clearly from
the ANSI data, of 0.1ms. Lets take this data and actually ask the question, for a laser diode in the region of 50mw can we
boost the power to the point we can pack significantly more energy into a 0.1ms period than would be present running CW?
Sanyo laser diodes,

DL-LS1068, 662nm (Red), 50mw. Maximum it can be driven to is 90mw at 50% Duty cycle, less than twice. Maximum length of
time this can be sustained for is 100ns. ns!
DL-7140-201S, 785nm (NIR), Listed as a 70mw laser its actual rated peak CW is 80mw. Peak pulse is 85mw. Maximum length
of peak pulse is 1us. Less than 10% increase in power but 2 orders of magnetude short of the goal pulse length.
DL-7240-201P, 782nm (NIR), 90mw CW, peak pulse 200mw, maximum length of peak pulse is 100ns, unsurprising given the
other results.
Typical maximum data from real laser diodes and you know what? I feel a conclusion coming on. The peak powers arnt
several orders of magntude higher, as in your original maths, they arnt even 1 order of magnetude higher in your last lot,
they are between 1 and just over 2 and the maximum pulse length for a doubling in power is around 100ns. 3 orders of
magnetude below what is needed giving us a 0.1ms pulse thats actually barely more power than the CW ratings. Bluntly the
idea fails for 2 main reasons, firstly the diodes cannot support much more than CW rated power and secondly the time
constant for damage is 3 orders of magnetude shorter than the time constant for damaging the target so if it fails to exceed
thresholds for CW pulsing will not help.
Moving to the wider scope of 'pulse compression' ideas, would this method work on any other laser? There are only a few
lasers that produce pulses longer than 0.1ms, giant pulse crystal lasers spring to mind but they are operating so slowly for
good reason, they are exceeding the energy limits in the rod and the pulses cannot be shortened. CW lasers? Aside from
diodes we only really have gas lasers and CW pumped crystals, the former cant be overdriven worth a damn and the latter is
limited by extremely low doping in the rod. Chemical lasers are out, dye lasers are out.
Conclusion, can this idea for improving the damage of a weapon actually be made to work? No, not for diode lasers, not for
any type of laser I can think of. Its simply a matter of running things at the rated powers and getting what you pay for.

J>Given that my 50mW diode laser (DPSS) lasts for half an hour on to TRIPLE A batteries...
If it is a 50mw diode laser then there is something seriously wrong with the design.
J>The shorter the pulse, to an extent, the more energy you can pour into it without burning out the laser diode, and the
longer the batteries will last.
M>No to both.
J>So your circuits use as much power when off as when on?
You used the term 'energy' not power and that makes both statements wrong.
J>The reason you can put higher electrical power into the diode is because it is quite a short time. Too long, and you will have
too much electrical power turning into heat. This kills your diode very rapidly. The size of the junctions are generally
micrometers, so you have to let them cool a little between shots, so they don't fry, and the heat has a little time to conduct
away.
You are providing no information. Replace the word 'diode' with 'motor' and 'junction' with 'coil' and nothing else changes, its
just as intrinsically right or wrong as it was before.
J>This is, in fact, a perfect analogy to why a short laser pulse does damage at a higher level than a longer pulse of the same
total energy.
I agree, but furthur its an excellent analogy as to why shortening the pulse of laser diodes cannot be used in this way for
cutting metal. If the diode CW cannot be used to melt the metal then you have a degree of parity between the lasing material
and the volume of metal to be cut. Anything you can do to increase the damage to the target will also affect the active volume
of the laser in the same way. The only way out of it is to increase the volume of the laser (bigger or more of them, or to
compress the energy after it has left (typically making them pumps in another laser alltogether)).
J>You are obviously not well read on this stuff, or you are being obstructive.
Can you not tell the difference? Your question was farcical even ignoring the clear implications of the data I posted, I
responded in kind.
Pointless underlining of things I have allready agreed with skipped. What matters is how relavent your example is to your
argument.
J>You are clearly being akward here. What part of "running off a CW laser of almost any type." did you miss?
Probably the part where you admit 'almost any type' fails to apply to the majority of laser types or the specific example you
chose for the discussion.
J>I am writing to inform the members here that they can do this fairly easily, and get good results if they perform a fairly
simple modification.
The crux of the matter, and I am pointing out why this will not work. Were these purposes somehow unclear in previous posts?
J>That paper was one I found that could introduce you to the ideas behind pulse compression, something you seem to
understand a little about.
Yes, and none of the ideas in the paper are simple modifications, and none will work on your example, the diode laser. Thus
the paper does not aid people in trying to do what you have suggested, and nor does it support your methods.
J>Your statement "Noone takes the output from CW and compresses it into pulses. Noone." shows me that you didn't even
read the first slide of the paper
There are no examples of CW lasers mentioned in the paper. I'm not suggesting noone uses pulsed lasers, this is totally
different.
J>I am saying that, for the eye damage threshold figures you gave, a pulse compression down to the tens or hundreds of
microseconds will give better eye damage results than the CW beam alone,
'Down to' implies a 'from', without which its feasability cannot be determined.
J>if we increase the current through the diode at those times. It will also let the batteries last for far longer
This does not follow as written, but I know what you are trying to say. Choose either damage or battery power criteria, you cant
play both cards, only one or the other can be optimised fully.
J>It is a well known fact that most diodes can be modulated into the MHz range
Modulated does not equate to being overdriven. Modulation is dependant mainly on the stimulated emission lifetime, which is
in the sub nanosecond range for a laser diode. GHz modulation is feasable.
J>A higher energy 10 microsecond pulse is viable, will do more damage,
Another meaningless statement, does 'higher' mean 1% more or 100x more? Higher than what? More damage than what? How
much more? What are you actually compairing the 10 microsecond pulse *to*?
J>Yes, I have ommitted to take account of things like capacitor losses, reduced efficiency of the diode
Trivial things, what have you taken into account though? Anything? Do results based on guessed numbers have any more
meaning than guessed numbers themselves?
J>To anyone undecided
Real world physics does not depend on majority opinion. Is this why you make statements with no content? Attempt to show
something works according to physics or don't bother arguing.
J>when using a microwave oven, you get hot spots. This is because the energy tends to focus on one area. This will boil or
burn food in one area, whilst the next area remains cold, as food tend to be fairly non-conductive.
J>If we reduce the power in, and spread it out over time, we find the food gets warm all the way through, as the heat has
more time to conduct through the food.
J>Now imagine if we "saved up" the time when the microwave was off, and put it all into the food in one short pulse. You would
You are still hung up on this storing up the energy and releasing it in one go for more damage. Look 5 or 6 posts previously
and we have actual data for this. Whats more you leave it open to assumption that the shorter the pulse the more damage
with no limits. You completely ignore the only parts of the problem actually open to interpretation, fortunatly, this can be
added.
Lets assume some actual numbers for our example and pick out trends that result. Lets assume heat in our pizza travels at
1cm/second and our spot size is 1cm. Lets also assume a thin pizza, and that the depth is heated all the way through, I'll
take Pi to be equal to 3 to make the maths easier. Ok, if we heat the middle for 10 seconds its clear that the whole of a 20cm
pizza would be heated. Not that evenly but some energy would go everywhere, for an equivlent flat hot area of 150ish cm^2.
This comes from the area of a circle Pi*r^2 for a 10cm radius pizza assuming that the heated area ranging from 0 to x
degrees is equivalent in energy loss terms to half that area at a flat x degrees. This gives us our energy in the hotspot as
being around 0.5% of the total spread out for 0.5% of the temperature, and thus effect, we could in theory get.
Now, how about for 1 second? We get a 2cm circle of heated area ramping up to the 1cm hotspot for an equivalent flat area of
about 3 cm^2 + the 0.75 cm^2 hot spot (which we can assume to be thermally flat itself). We now have around 20% of the
energy in the hotspot area, so 40x the energy density for a pulse 1/10th as long. Thats a big effect, does it continue?
How about for 0.1 second? We get a 1mm leak around the hotspot and the math now gives us 82% of the energy in the
hotspot compaired to the total. An order of magnetude change in pulse length and now only a factor of just over 4 change in
effect.
For 0.01 second? 98%.
Is it really worth going any furthur? Theres only 2% total improvement to get. Below a 0.1sec pulse length in this example the
result is determined far more by a factor of 2 pulse energy than orders of magnetude change in pulse length.
Requirements. For a useful effect the pulse energy must be enough to boil the hot spot pizza area. Below that energy no
change in pulse length however extreme will see anything happen. Pulse energy determines the limit of what can happen for a
given active volume, pulse length determines what percentage of that energy stays at the target.
For us to reduce the pulse length to 1/10th and keep the same pulse energy we have to know that the magnetron will handle
an increase in power by an order of magnetude. It has to operate normally at 10x power output without blowing up or breaking
down for the whole duration of the pulse. For a step where the power throughput is less than parity, same energy, shorter time
period, we need to know alowed power levels to determine if the saving on leaked energy exceeds the reduced pulse energy
for a bigger effect.
Moving this over to the laser problem we don't need to do the same math, as we are given the time constant fairly clearly from
the ANSI data, of 0.1ms. Lets take this data and actually ask the question, for a laser diode in the region of 50mw can we
boost the power to the point we can pack significantly more energy into a 0.1ms period than would be present running CW?
Sanyo laser diodes,

DL-LS1068, 662nm (Red), 50mw. Maximum it can be driven to is 90mw at 50% Duty cycle, less than twice. Maximum length of
time this can be sustained for is 100ns. ns!
DL-7140-201S, 785nm (NIR), Listed as a 70mw laser its actual rated peak CW is 80mw. Peak pulse is 85mw. Maximum length
of peak pulse is 1us. Less than 10% increase in power but 2 orders of magnetude short of the goal pulse length.
DL-7240-201P, 782nm (NIR), 90mw CW, peak pulse 200mw, maximum length of peak pulse is 100ns, unsurprising given the
other results.
Typical maximum data from real laser diodes and you know what? I feel a conclusion coming on. The peak powers arnt
several orders of magntude higher, as in your original maths, they arnt even 1 order of magnetude higher in your last lot,
they are between 1 and just over 2 and the maximum pulse length for a doubling in power is around 100ns. 3 orders of
magnetude below what is needed giving us a 0.1ms pulse thats actually barely more power than the CW ratings. Bluntly the
idea fails for 2 main reasons, firstly the diodes cannot support much more than CW rated power and secondly the time
constant for damage is 3 orders of magnetude shorter than the time constant for damaging the target so if it fails to exceed
thresholds for CW pulsing will not help.
Moving to the wider scope of 'pulse compression' ideas, would this method work on any other laser? There are only a few
lasers that produce pulses longer than 0.1ms, giant pulse crystal lasers spring to mind but they are operating so slowly for
good reason, they are exceeding the energy limits in the rod and the pulses cannot be shortened. CW lasers? Aside from
diodes we only really have gas lasers and CW pumped crystals, the former cant be overdriven worth a damn and the latter is
limited by extremely low doping in the rod. Chemical lasers are out, dye lasers are out.
Conclusion, can this idea for improving the damage of a weapon actually be made to work? No, not for diode lasers, not for
any type of laser I can think of. Its simply a matter of running things at the rated powers and getting what you pay for.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Mdt
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I read the Police detector (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum /archive/index.php/t-1787) post and was curious on how to recie ve
t h e M D T s i g n a l s a n d h o w t o d e c o d e t h e m (what kind of areials a n d e q u i p m e n t ) , i h a d a g o o d g o o g l e a r o u n d but i think there
is either nothing cove ring it or i am googling the wrong phrases :S. Also does anyone have inform ation on U.K police
c o m m unication standards? I did however find that m y local area uses wireless networking, but i want to try with MDT aswell.
Thanks.

Thanks.

Thanks.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > The 'Plug'
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nbk2000 May 25th, 2005, 03:16 PM

[Don't ask how I come up these, I just do. Being able to combine a medieval torture device with a sex-toy, as blended by criminal psychopathy, is part of w hat makes me so
interesting. ;)]
I was reading a new book I got, and in the 'historical' part of it, there were medieval locks and such shown.
This reminded me of an interesting device called a 'Pear', which was a pear-shaped device that w as shoved into the mouths of robbery or torture victims, that would, upon
turning of a key, extend blades out of it, making removal impossible without self-mutilation, requiring a ransom or w ritten confession in exchange for the key.
This, in turn, reminded me of a parody site I saw years ago called 'The Butt Plug', which purported to offer for sale...butt plugs :o, w ith built-in locks to prevent removal. Such
uses as 'Prevent Prison Shower Rape', 'Freedom from diarrhea', etc. :)
Anyhows....a picture (in the same book) of a mantrap used by high-security facilities like DOE nuke labs, and such, was captioned as (amoung other things) making hostage-
taking impossible, as only one person at a time can fit in it.
This got me to thinking about the hostage collars.
They make such traps irrelevant, as you can be on the other side of the trap, and it w ouldn't matter. :p
But, what if there's someone on the inside who's controlling the doors? He might be suspicious about letting someone in who has this round-thing around his neck. Hmmmm....
And all that 'See-Through Clothing' shit they're developing makes it even tougher, as you know such things w ill be installed in government places before anywhere else.
Well, combine a 'pear', a hostage collar, and a locking butt-plug, and what have you got?
Yep...'The Plug'. :D
The device is constructed out of (preferably) non-metallic materials, w ith a mechanical or chemical delay, inserted in the appropriate orifice (and it's non-gender-specific, so
we're being equal-opportunity!), and locked into place.
The device is such that, w hen locked, it expands to such a diameter as to be unremovable w ithout surgery (assuming you're not using it on a fisting fetishist), and begins the
timer or chemical reaction that will result, if not removed, in someones ass being seperated from their body in a spectaculary lethal manner.
Now, they can be stripped naked, pass through a metal-detector, and still be under your control.
Naturally, you don't want to give them too much time before the fireworks start, otherw ise they might get ideas about getting help with their 'problem'. I can't imagine anyone
being able to get help in less than 15 minutes or so.
nbk2000 May 25th, 2005, 03:16 PM

interesting. ;)]
nbk2000 May 25th, 2005, 03:16 PM

interesting. ;)]
xyz May 26th, 2005, 07:33 AM

Hey, the hostages are expendable, so why does it have to be removable?
Just cover it in superglue before "application". Gets around the problem of fisting fetishists as well...
K.I.S.S. (can't remember w hat RTPB that is, it's been a while...)
On the subject, this reminds me of a nasty form of revenge know n to be used by biker gangs around here. A 30cm or so length of razorwire is slid inside a piece of plastic pipe
of the appropriate diameter, the pipe is lubricated and inserted into the victim's rectum with the razorwire still inside the pipe, and the pipe is then pulled out again, leaving the
razorw ire behind.
xyz May 26th, 2005, 07:33 AM

razorw ire behind.
xyz May 26th, 2005, 07:33 AM

razorw ire behind.
festergrump May 26th, 2005, 09:07 AM

Well, you'd want to at least leave the hostages thinking it was removable, else they'd just focus on getting help and not doing your bidding first, right? I'd w ant them to think I
was their best hope for survival so they'd do w hat I say to the last detail and be quick about it (as quick as possible with a large device up their ass, anyway!).
Razorwire... now that's nice, cold revenge. I like it! :eek:
(I can't yet see the mantrap attachment you posted, NBK. It's still pending approval, but you've definitely sparked my curiosity. I always thought the dogcollar idea was more
useful than just robbing banks without actually being present. This gives an uncomfortable and yet unseen approach to it). :)


xyz May 27th, 2005, 01:54 AM

Hmm, you could tell them that you had a special chemical to dissolve the glue or something (acetone, but don't tell them that or they may be able to get hold of some), or tell
them it's some substance other than superglue and that you can easily remove it again for them, but that nobody else has both the necessary solvent and enough time to use it
(seeing as how you control how much time that is...).
xyz May 27th, 2005, 01:54 AM

xyz May 27th, 2005, 01:54 AM


There's no need for any of that. Just stuff it up the back passage, and it w ill be swallowed. That's why anal toys have a flanged base - it's to stop them getting "lost". Make it
round and a bit bigger than an egg, to an orange size, and there will be nothing to grip to get it back out.
Don't use explosives, either, use a nasty toxin, as that w on't get sniffed by explosives sniffers, and some sharp edges.


nbk2000 May 27th, 2005, 06:35 PM

It helps if I approve my own attachments, doesn't it?
An idea w ould be to use a chemical mixture that gets hotter as time goes by. Something like quicklime with a water porous barrier. As the quicklime absorbs w ater, it gets hotter
and hotter...eventually it get red hot! :eek:
Imagine a hot poker up the backside! 'course, it starts out just slightly warm, but it starts getting warmer and w armer....;)
Or go all out with a plug made from compressed Thermite with a chemical delay pencil installed in it. This wouldn't get through a metal detector though. Though I'm sure there's
plenty of incendiaries that would. :)
K.I.S.S. is one of the top ten RTPBS, for sure.
Do the bikers just leave the razortape in their victims ass? Or do they attach a handle and pull it out...slooowww ly? :eek: :)
nbk2000 May 27th, 2005, 06:35 PM

nbk2000 May 27th, 2005, 06:35 PM

xyz May 27th, 2005, 07:58 PM

They just leave it in there I think.
But if you want to be really nasty, you could coat the razorwire in NaOH just prior to use and then use the handle idea as well...
As for explosive sniffers, does anyone know if they detect peroxides yet? I heard that they're only set up to detect nitro-aromatics but that may have changed since I heard it a
few years back.
xyz May 27th, 2005, 07:58 PM

few years back.
xyz May 27th, 2005, 07:58 PM

few years back.
nbk2000 May 31st, 2005, 07:23 PM

Another thing might be to install a wireless mike into the plug.
Since it's in their ass, they'd probably think you'd have no way of monitoring what they say out of your sight.
Prove them w rong.
Also, an electric shock capability w ould be useful. ;)
In all cases, they must have hope that you'll actually remove the thing, which I think you should.
After all, if you're using it for a big score, and they're the ones who carried the loot out to you, then what cop w ould believe such a crazy story as an exploding, electric-shocking
butt-plug? I w ouldn't, and I came up w ith the idea! :p
Leave them alive w ith a stretched out O-ring to take the heat for an inside job, and they'll be the ones to be getting their ring stretched out in prison every night, not you! :D
AFAIK, they can't detect peroxides by odor yet, but can through a baggage scanner. Dogs are probably the greatest threat.
nbk2000 May 31st, 2005, 07:23 PM

Prove them w rong.
nbk2000 May 31st, 2005, 07:23 PM

Prove them w rong.
xyz June 1st, 2005, 05:11 AM

Instead of having to get back to them to remove it (might be difficult depending on how much attention they've attracted from the pork while doing whatever task you assigned
them), lure them into a trap that w ill not only kill them, but also cause enough damage to their body that the damage from your exploding buttplug won't be noticeable.
I'm thinking a car bomb set up to look like a suicide. Basically you tell them to get in the car and drive to a certain location after they've completed their assignment, telling
them that once they get there, you'll remove the buttplug. Once they get there you detonate the buttplug and the car bomb simultaneously, no evidence of the buttplug to
worry about and no witness to talk.
Of course, there'll likely be an investigation into the w hole bomb thing, but you can always help that on it's way by planting some chemical traces/plans/manuals at the victim's
house/workplace/e.t.c.
xyz June 1st, 2005, 05:11 AM

xyz June 1st, 2005, 05:11 AM


The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Revolutionary detector Sniffex?
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http://ww w.bnr.bg/RadioBulgaria/Emission_English/Theme_Science_And_Nature/Material/sniffex.htm
I have talked to people who tried the detector (it was first patneted in BG ) and they say it descovers 10 g TNT in 50 meters radius or 100g TNT behind 1 meter concrete wall !!!
Sadly now here any information about how it w orks is presented.

One is sure, the device has 40 cm antenna.




Guerilla May 28th, 2005, 07:59 PM

Found this from http://www.allpennystocks.com/apsc/us/stock_profiles/snfx.htm:
Sniffex is made up of two components; a signal generator module and a detection module. In operation, the source generator is activated to emit an energy signal of a target
material's characteristic frequency. The power level of the energy source will begin to activate the electrons of nitro-based materials that have the characteristic frequency
generated. Once the target material is activated, it too w ill begin to emit a signal having the characteristic frequency of the signal generator.
The detection module is moved through a range betw een the source module and the target material. When the detection module encounters the highest energy line between
the source module and target material, which is the shortest line betw een the two energy sources, the Sniffex antenna w ill rotate to designate that the line has been crossed.
As the antenna continues to move through a range it will continue to point in the direction of the source module and the target material. Once a set of co-ordinates for the target
material have been generated, then the exact location of the target can be calculated. Two or three measurements from different directions are required for precise location of a
target. If a particular location is suspect, as in a suitcase, Sniffex can be used to detect if a target material is in that location.
It indeed sounds like a brilliant invention, the main benefit being, unlike the detectors so far it doesn't need to be exposed to the vapours itself.. It's interesting to see how fast
this device will spread, I bet they soon start placing this kind of detectors everyw here.. though wouldn't common NOx-sources like exhaust fumes (carbombs d'oh) easily cause
interference in certain tasks?
I'd like to hear more about its working mechanism, at which frequency it operates etc..



I would like to know the exact quantum mechanism.
So it is irradiated w ith something in the range 50MHz - 2 GHz. It could be the rotational frequency of NOx???
In the spectroscopy, there is hardly a case when the excited state emmits exactly the wavelength it has absorbed. Ususally less energetic w avelength is emitted. As the
photonics - thermodinamics suggest. The energy
E(absorbed) - E(emitted) = Q(heat)
Like we have in all pumped lasers.
Anyway the device will not detect nitromethane in metal container (soldiered can).
First the metal reflects the waves, second - the solution makes it hard to scan.
I guess no more ammonium nitrate could be transported via the metro :( .

Only cans with fish --- for the hooks... :P
Another yummy idea is to put a low sensitivity receiver in the bomb
so the one with the transmitter - Sniffex w ill detonate the device from 4-5 meters when passing near it.




NO SHIT!
Abstracts :
The role of water in microw ave absorption by biological material with particular reference to microwave hazards.
Dawkins AW, Nightingale NR, South GP, Sheppard RJ, Grant EH.
The problem of the absorption of the energy of plane electromagnetic radiation by an aqueous solution of macromolecules is considered. A simplified model for the hydrated
molecule is employed, consisting of a spherical shell of bound water surrounding a spherical core. The power deposition per unit volume of the shell is calculated in the frequency
range 100 MHz-100 GHz for several bound water relaxation frequencies. In each case the corresponding values are also calculated for free w ater for comparison. The values
obtained for the bound water are show n to be significantly higher than those for the free water up to frequencies of at least 1 GHz. The maximum difference between these two
sets of values is of the order of a factor of five and occurs roughly at the bound w ater relaxation frequency. Because of the strong coupling between the bound water molecules
and the macromolecules present in biological material this result could be a significant factor in the explanation of the biological effects of microw aves at a molecular level.

NO SHIT!
Abstracts :

NO SHIT!
Abstracts :
Chris The Great May 31st, 2005, 05:58 PM

So, I guess it no longer w orks if you released some NO2 into the atmosphere, and left a few cold packs or a bag of fertilizer as a decoy. I can see many ways in w hich this could
be exploited, anything with a NO2 group would be detected. If someone has a cold pack on their carry on in a plane, they'll think the plane has a bomb in it! Then the sheeple
will bleat about how evil the technology is, and then w e w on't have to worry about pigs driving past our house and arresting us.


nbk2000 May 31st, 2005, 07:44 PM

It's an old idea that's just been given a fancy face lift.
It's called 'dowsing'.
Grab a forked branch, think 'explosive', and walk around till the fork moves dow n.
In this case, an antenna on an OD colored plastic case. :p

It's hard to believe that people still fall for this shit. :rolleyes:
Why do you think this is being hawked on a penny-stock site? It's a 'Pump and Dump' scam.
nbk2000 May 31st, 2005, 07:44 PM

nbk2000 May 31st, 2005, 07:44 PM


From the other thread which sort of points here, I thought I might re-open this one.
This exact idea might work, but probably not.
However, the "flash chromatography" systems do work, and are very sensitive. They are in use by the US DoD amongst others.
Basic theory is, the air is drawn over a hot wire, which burns whatever is in the air. The resulting soot is analysed by mass, and the computer w orks out what w as burning/
burned a few moments before. Spikes for NOx mean an explosive, and the varying ratios of NO2 to NO, etc. can determine the explosive. Some of the best ones can pick up
multiple elements and more, giving highly specific threat analysis with only nano- or picogram traces of vapours.
I don't know how it tells the difference between background and target, but it can. It is most likely something to do with statistical changes from before a sample is burned and
after, combined w ith the fact it knows when the w ire is hot.
Cordtex September 29th, 2005, 08:20 PM

I've noticed that, this device, so far is detecting pressurized deodorant or prefume cans, even leaking car motor oil. I've seen the deviation angle difference of the telescopic
antenna in either cases (perfume or oil). So the security personnel using the device must be trained well to differentiate betw een explosives and other aromatic compounds. The
strange thing w as when a security guard asked: "Do you have any < computer> in the car?"... NBK this does not seem to be a hoax :)
Jacks Complete September 30th, 2005, 06:31 AM

To which I would have replied, "I'm a shooter." Or perhaps just looked at him and said "I only use synthetic oil in my car."
The cheaper versions don't differentiate well at all, which is probably why NBK said they were like dowsing rods! The best models are quite good from w hat I know. However,
the false alerts are the killer of any system. Watching guards working on metal detector archways shows this to be true. They beep at every last thing, so the guards start to let
people who look safe through without further checks. Same thing here.
nbk2000 October 1st, 2005, 03:37 PM

No matter how much gobbly-gook pseudo-scientific BS they blow up your ass, the picture of the thing shows it to be a dowsing rod. It's already been discussed here in the past,
review ed and discredited by other police and government authorities, and thus a null point.
End topic.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Active Cooling for Power Tools
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nbk2000 June 13th, 2005, 12:10 PM

While using a cut-off wheel on an angle-grinder for penetration testing, I noticed that the majority of the noise comes from
the tool motor, not from the cutting wheel, during actual cutting.
The idea of silencing the tool by encasing it in some material occured to me, but the problem with this would be that the motor
would very rapidly overheat and fail without the cooling airflow.
How to solve this in a manner that is efficient, simple, and non-conductive (for obvious reasons) as well as totally silent?
The use of dry ice seems to be the solution.
It's cheap, disposable, readily available, non-conductive, and silent.
By making the case silent, you're also making it almost airtight, as well as insulated.
The idea I'm having is to drop chunks of dry ice into the silencing case just prior to use, sealing it up, and then using the tool.
As the tool heats up, it vaporizes the dry ice, keeping the tool cooled, and creating gaseous CO2.
The CO2 gas is then vented out.
While this could be expended as waste gas, there's another idea I had that could use it to increase the stealthiness of the
tool.
When you use a cut-off wheel, it creates a visible spray of sparks, which can draw attention to your activities in the dark. BAD!
But, if the tool is operating in a non-oxygen atmosphere, the metal particles won't ignite and burn, thus no visible sparks.
GOOD!
So, by directing the CO2 exhaust in line with the angle of debris ejection, you should be able to shield the hot particles from
the oxygen in the air long enough for them to cool to below their ignition temperature, preventing the creation of sparks.
:)
This would depend on the tool generating enough heat to vaporize the dry ice rapidly enough to create sufficient CO2 to shield
with. If the tool doesn't generate enough heat as-is, it could be modified to run hotter, or electric resistance elements could be
added to provide the extra heat.
While plug-in grinders are good, there are battery powered angle-grinders which are very useful for B&E work. Especially at
remote construction sites or other places with no mains power.
nbk2000 June 13th, 2005, 12:10 PM

While using a cut-off wheel on an angle-grinder for penetration testing, I noticed that the majority of the noise comes from
the tool motor, not from the cutting wheel, during actual cutting.
The idea of silencing the tool by encasing it in some material occured to me, but the problem with this would be that the motor
would very rapidly overheat and fail without the cooling airflow.
How to solve this in a manner that is efficient, simple, and non-conductive (for obvious reasons) as well as totally silent?
The use of dry ice seems to be the solution.
It's cheap, disposable, readily available, non-conductive, and silent.
By making the case silent, you're also making it almost airtight, as well as insulated.
The idea I'm having is to drop chunks of dry ice into the silencing case just prior to use, sealing it up, and then using the tool.
As the tool heats up, it vaporizes the dry ice, keeping the tool cooled, and creating gaseous CO2.
The CO2 gas is then vented out.
While this could be expended as waste gas, there's another idea I had that could use it to increase the stealthiness of the
tool.
When you use a cut-off wheel, it creates a visible spray of sparks, which can draw attention to your activities in the dark. BAD!
But, if the tool is operating in a non-oxygen atmosphere, the metal particles won't ignite and burn, thus no visible sparks.
GOOD!
So, by directing the CO2 exhaust in line with the angle of debris ejection, you should be able to shield the hot particles from
the oxygen in the air long enough for them to cool to below their ignition temperature, preventing the creation of sparks.
:)
This would depend on the tool generating enough heat to vaporize the dry ice rapidly enough to create sufficient CO2 to shield
with. If the tool doesn't generate enough heat as-is, it could be modified to run hotter, or electric resistance elements could be
added to provide the extra heat.
While plug-in grinders are good, there are battery powered angle-grinders which are very useful for B&E work. Especially at
remote construction sites or other places with no mains power.

Now that's a neat idea.
If you have a small directional jet that you can point right at the contact point, it would reduce the volume of gas needed. You
might find that the cutting rate is somewhat slower without the oxidisation of the steel.
A quiet cutter would be very useful for not disturbing the neighbours.
You might also be able to extend this idea of active thermal sheilding to things like car engines and gun barrels, too.

Now that's a neat idea.
If you have a small directional jet that you can point right at the contact point, it would reduce the volume of gas needed. You
might find that the cutting rate is somewhat slower without the oxidisation of the steel.
A quiet cutter would be very useful for not disturbing the neighbours.
sdjsdj June 15th, 2005, 09:02 AM

Perhaps something like the Argon system used when welding could be adapted?

Perhaps something like the Argon system used when welding could be adapted?

There's a good point point - generally speaking, automatic weapons like the LSW can't be fired for a sustained period of time
becaus the barrel starts to distort due to the heat. A relatively simple gas - cooling system around the barrel could effectively
remove this problem. Could be a bit heavy though.

There's a good point point - generally speaking, automatic weapons like the LSW can't be fired for a sustained period of time
becaus the barrel starts to distort due to the heat. A relatively simple gas - cooling system around the barrel could effectively
remove this problem. Could be a bit heavy though.

With my recent computer overheating problems I have been reading about cooling solutions. One nifty device for extreme
CPU cooling is the Asetek Vapochill. This is a miniture self contained refrigerater the produces -40 C temperatures on the
processor via a cable ending in a flat piece of copper.
With minor modifications a device like this could have a different cooling head for cooling other things. The tools motor could
be sealed, and only the refrigeration unit would remain open to the air.
These things are not cheap... the Vapochill runs about $850. Of course it can keep a high end CPU overclocked by 50%
running under heavy load chilled to -11 C. For a motor it can likely keep it much cooler, or cool a larger area.

With my recent computer overheating problems I have been reading about cooling solutions. One nifty device for extreme
CPU cooling is the Asetek Vapochill. This is a miniture self contained refrigerater the produces -40 C temperatures on the
processor via a cable ending in a flat piece of copper.
With minor modifications a device like this could have a different cooling head for cooling other things. The tools motor could
be sealed, and only the refrigeration unit would remain open to the air.
These things are not cheap... the Vapochill runs about $850. Of course it can keep a high end CPU overclocked by 50%
running under heavy load chilled to -11 C. For a motor it can likely keep it much cooler, or cool a larger area.
festergrump June 16th, 2005, 11:36 PM

Corrugated metal structures such as some industrial walls and roofs cause alot of noise despite the quieted tools you might
use to do the job.
I've been expirimenting to some success with laminating a 3/4" thick rubber pad (my foot relief at work) of aproximately 4'x
4' to one such piece of steel and grinding my way through them both. The pad seems to help buffer the noise to a pretty good
degree (about 25% of noise left) but the noise increases as you get some vibration from the freed edges of the steel. Putting
your body against will help to deaden the noise some more while in this stage of the cut, though.
Ultimately, if one was so inclined to penetrate a structure in this manner, I think that a collapsable tent-like "blind" might
easily be reinforced inside with a sound dampening barrier (spiked foam sheets?) to hide noise and sparks from the
compromised steel. This in conjunction with a sprayable foam or stick on laminate foam rubber to buffer the metal might be
the trick. For rooftops a grey dome tent would be ideal since grey is easiest to blend in with shadows and dome-like silouettes
are easily mistaken by the unknowing eye for an integral part of an industrial rated HVAC system.
Also, much loose weight on a rooftop would be ideal for dampening noise for cutting through the thinner barriers. Dirt in
abundance could help considerably and be brought in little by little and spread about your future workplace... providing you are
not pressed for time (and you shouldn't be, either, until it's "GO-TIME" else give up the mission).
From my expirience as a second rate musician, spiked foam will reduce the noise of the higher end of the sound spectrum
much better than that of the bass frequencies, and that's really what we're looking at here.
I wouldn't find it too hard to imagine such a setup being stuffed in an Alice pack along with your tools and carried to your
decided point of entry. :)
festergrump June 16th, 2005, 11:36 PM

Corrugated metal structures such as some industrial walls and roofs cause alot of noise despite the quieted tools you might
use to do the job.
I've been expirimenting to some success with laminating a 3/4" thick rubber pad (my foot relief at work) of aproximately 4'x
4' to one such piece of steel and grinding my way through them both. The pad seems to help buffer the noise to a pretty good
degree (about 25% of noise left) but the noise increases as you get some vibration from the freed edges of the steel. Putting
your body against will help to deaden the noise some more while in this stage of the cut, though.
Ultimately, if one was so inclined to penetrate a structure in this manner, I think that a collapsable tent-like "blind" might
easily be reinforced inside with a sound dampening barrier (spiked foam sheets?) to hide noise and sparks from the
compromised steel. This in conjunction with a sprayable foam or stick on laminate foam rubber to buffer the metal might be
the trick. For rooftops a grey dome tent would be ideal since grey is easiest to blend in with shadows and dome-like silouettes
are easily mistaken by the unknowing eye for an integral part of an industrial rated HVAC system.
Also, much loose weight on a rooftop would be ideal for dampening noise for cutting through the thinner barriers. Dirt in
abundance could help considerably and be brought in little by little and spread about your future workplace... providing you are
not pressed for time (and you shouldn't be, either, until it's "GO-TIME" else give up the mission).
From my expirience as a second rate musician, spiked foam will reduce the noise of the higher end of the sound spectrum
much better than that of the bass frequencies, and that's really what we're looking at here.
I wouldn't find it too hard to imagine such a setup being stuffed in an Alice pack along with your tools and carried to your
decided point of entry. :)
nbk2000 June 18th, 2005, 05:45 PM

I went to the grocery store and picked up some dry ice and tested the idea of spark suppresion out.
Attached are a couple of frame captures from the video I shot of the test. I've got a video of the test that's small enough to
fit on a floppy. If someone wants it, I'll e-mail it to you to upload somewhere so others can see it too.
I put a pan of hot water in a large water cooler and dropped in a bit of dry ice, waited till the vapor fog had filled the whole
cooler, then conducted the test.
Target was a piece of 1040 steel round stock, tool was a 4.5" angle grinder with ALOX grinding wheel.
At first, there were no sparks, but the grinder generates such a draft that the CO2 fog was dissipated from the cooler within a a
second or two. :(
But the results are encouraging.
Compare the 'with' picture against the 'without' picture. The first is barely visible, the other lights up the night like a fireworks
show. The former lets you enjoy the spoils, the latter gets you an extended vacation. ;)
The green tint is from the camcorders Nightshot IR mode.
With a means of keeping the target adequately shrouded in the gas, I think total spark suppression is possible.
Something else noted was how the target steel was rusted after its brief exposure to the dry ice fog. This stock was pristine
prior to the test, and a few minutes later was looking years old. I think the carbonic acid formed by the carbon dioxide reacting
with the water is responsible.
This isn't going to do your tools any good. I examined my grinder and found water drops in the motor casing. I can imagine
what it's doing to the windings inside the grinder motor. Must be from the water fog created by the dry ice. I wonder how long a
tool could last in such a fog before shorting out...
This was ghetto style testing, of course, so problems are to be expected. A more refined method probably wouldn't affect the
tooling.
Next time I'll use an electric heating element to vaporize the dry ice (no water) and an air-tight enclosure to keep the grinder
draft from being a problem. :)
In the context of a job, depending on what you're attacking, it might be good to build a tent from plastic sheeting around the
target and filling that with CO2 gas, using an electric heater to prevent the corrosive fog from forming.
Then you can work in the tent, using a supplied air respirator. This is easy to make, using a battery-powered air-bed inflator
attached to a half-face respirator by a length of vinyl tubing. Don't knock the mask off or you'll die in one breath when your
epiglotus siezes shut.
Another good thing about this may be the reduction or elimination of smoke from torch attacks.
Since smoke is the product of incomplete combustion, by eliminating ALL combustion, you should eliminate the smoke. :)
Since oxy-acetylene and exothermic torches supply their own oxygen, you can cut while shielding the surroundings from
burning caused by slag splatter.
While a cylinder of carbon dioxide gas would be more controllable, it's also very heavy, bulky, and something else to be traced
if found. A block of dry ice is cheap, disposable, and the perfect crime tool as it evaporates with no trace.
nbk2000 June 18th, 2005, 05:45 PM

I went to the grocery store and picked up some dry ice and tested the idea of spark suppresion out.
Attached are a couple of frame captures from the video I shot of the test. I've got a video of the test that's small enough to
fit on a floppy. If someone wants it, I'll e-mail it to you to upload somewhere so others can see it too.
I put a pan of hot water in a large water cooler and dropped in a bit of dry ice, waited till the vapor fog had filled the whole
cooler, then conducted the test.
Target was a piece of 1040 steel round stock, tool was a 4.5" angle grinder with ALOX grinding wheel.
At first, there were no sparks, but the grinder generates such a draft that the CO2 fog was dissipated from the cooler within a a
second or two. :(
But the results are encouraging.
Compare the 'with' picture against the 'without' picture. The first is barely visible, the other lights up the night like a fireworks
show. The former lets you enjoy the spoils, the latter gets you an extended vacation. ;)
The green tint is from the camcorders Nightshot IR mode.
With a means of keeping the target adequately shrouded in the gas, I think total spark suppression is possible.
Something else noted was how the target steel was rusted after its brief exposure to the dry ice fog. This stock was pristine
prior to the test, and a few minutes later was looking years old. I think the carbonic acid formed by the carbon dioxide reacting
with the water is responsible.
This isn't going to do your tools any good. I examined my grinder and found water drops in the motor casing. I can imagine
what it's doing to the windings inside the grinder motor. Must be from the water fog created by the dry ice. I wonder how long a
tool could last in such a fog before shorting out...
This was ghetto style testing, of course, so problems are to be expected. A more refined method probably wouldn't affect the
tooling.
Next time I'll use an electric heating element to vaporize the dry ice (no water) and an air-tight enclosure to keep the grinder
draft from being a problem. :)
In the context of a job, depending on what you're attacking, it might be good to build a tent from plastic sheeting around the
target and filling that with CO2 gas, using an electric heater to prevent the corrosive fog from forming.
Then you can work in the tent, using a supplied air respirator. This is easy to make, using a battery-powered air-bed inflator
attached to a half-face respirator by a length of vinyl tubing. Don't knock the mask off or you'll die in one breath when your
epiglotus siezes shut.
Another good thing about this may be the reduction or elimination of smoke from torch attacks.
Since smoke is the product of incomplete combustion, by eliminating ALL combustion, you should eliminate the smoke. :)
Since oxy-acetylene and exothermic torches supply their own oxygen, you can cut while shielding the surroundings from
burning caused by slag splatter.
While a cylinder of carbon dioxide gas would be more controllable, it's also very heavy, bulky, and something else to be traced
if found. A block of dry ice is cheap, disposable, and the perfect crime tool as it evaporates with no trace.
FUTI June 18th, 2005, 06:37 PM

I'm afraid that dry ice can cause troubles NBK2000. I remember that one of the problems with it reacting in Grinard reaction is
that being so cool actually spoil everything since it condense so much water from air that Grinard reagent react with water
instead of CO2. Now condense water inside the motor casing isn't something I would like to see.
FUTI June 18th, 2005, 06:37 PM

I'm afraid that dry ice can cause troubles NBK2000. I remember that one of the problems with it reacting in Grinard reaction is
that being so cool actually spoil everything since it condense so much water from air that Grinard reagent react with water
instead of CO2. Now condense water inside the motor casing isn't something I would like to see.
Skean Dhu June 19th, 2005, 05:06 PM

What about surrounding the grinder case in a light oil and having it circulate from the motor housing through vinyl tubing
around a cooling core of (dry)ice. Since the oil (unless its dirty as all get out) won't conduct the motor should still operate. You
could then use the CO2 fog arround the grinder wheel to control the sparks, since its not your property your grinding away the
surface rust left as a result won't matter.
just thinking out loud, elaborate, modify, tear apart.
:: Last second though I had while proof reading; you'd probably need a brushless motor for this to succeed, since the oil could
prevent the brushes on a regular motor from making contact.
Skean Dhu June 19th, 2005, 05:06 PM

What about surrounding the grinder case in a light oil and having it circulate from the motor housing through vinyl tubing
around a cooling core of (dry)ice. Since the oil (unless its dirty as all get out) won't conduct the motor should still operate. You
could then use the CO2 fog arround the grinder wheel to control the sparks, since its not your property your grinding away the
surface rust left as a result won't matter.
just thinking out loud, elaborate, modify, tear apart.
:: Last second though I had while proof reading; you'd probably need a brushless motor for this to succeed, since the oil could
prevent the brushes on a regular motor from making contact.
nbk2000 June 20th, 2005, 11:28 AM

I tried another test yesterday.
I took the remaining dry ice and placed it in a large plastic bag, put the test target and the grinder in, squeezed all the air out
and twisted the end shut.
After the bag was suitably inflated by the subliminated dry ice, I conducted the test.
There were NO sparks. :)
The removed material collected at the bottom of the bag, unburnt, along with some of the grinder disk material. Perhaps this
technique could be used to grind aluminum or magnesium for use as pyro material.
Another idea I had was to make a limpet charge out of dry ice and magnesium for attaching close to a vehicles air intake to
smother it into stalling out.
I got the idea from a video clip from a science experiment on the FTP, where magnesium shavings were ignited in a block of
dry ice. The magnesium burned very quickly, lighting the block up brightly from inside and, more importantly, releasing a
huge amount of CO2 in just a few moments.
Experimentation would be needed to determine the best arrangement for the components, but the ideal would be to generate
a constant flow of carbon dioxide, sufficient to smother a diesel engine of the type typically used for dough delivery trucks ;)
for at least 2 minutes.
The charge would be constructed such that you can whip it out, slap it near the air intake, and ignite it to generate the gas,
immobilizing the vehicle long enough to do what you need to do.
It'd be much lighter and more compact than a tank of the gas, in keeping with the RTPB of K.I.S.S.
A 10 pound block of dry ice will convert into over 80 cubic feet of gas. Since air contains 21% oxygen, and you only need to
reduce that to 12% to stop combustion, you should have no problem creating enough carbon dioxide gas to drop the oxygen
level down to that level.
Really trick would be to make the casing out of nipolite and adjusting everything so that, just as the last of the dry ice was
vaporized, the last little bit of burning magnesium ignited the casing, which burns to nothing, leaving nothing but some
magnesium oxide powder to blow away in the wind.
CSI that, piggies! :p
As an enhancement, chlorinated hydrocarbons, such as perchloroethylene, could be added in with the dry ice, where it would
remain frozen, until vaporized. Chlorinated hydrocarbons are like poor-mans Halon, breaking the combustion cycle, thus
increasing efficiency.
nbk2000 June 20th, 2005, 11:28 AM

I tried another test yesterday.
I took the remaining dry ice and placed it in a large plastic bag, put the test target and the grinder in, squeezed all the air out
and twisted the end shut.
After the bag was suitably inflated by the subliminated dry ice, I conducted the test.
There were NO sparks. :)
The removed material collected at the bottom of the bag, unburnt, along with some of the grinder disk material. Perhaps this
technique could be used to grind aluminum or magnesium for use as pyro material.
Another idea I had was to make a limpet charge out of dry ice and magnesium for attaching close to a vehicles air intake to
smother it into stalling out.
I got the idea from a video clip from a science experiment on the FTP, where magnesium shavings were ignited in a block of
dry ice. The magnesium burned very quickly, lighting the block up brightly from inside and, more importantly, releasing a
huge amount of CO2 in just a few moments.
Experimentation would be needed to determine the best arrangement for the components, but the ideal would be to generate
a constant flow of carbon dioxide, sufficient to smother a diesel engine of the type typically used for dough delivery trucks ;)
for at least 2 minutes.
The charge would be constructed such that you can whip it out, slap it near the air intake, and ignite it to generate the gas,
immobilizing the vehicle long enough to do what you need to do.
It'd be much lighter and more compact than a tank of the gas, in keeping with the RTPB of K.I.S.S.
A 10 pound block of dry ice will convert into over 80 cubic feet of gas. Since air contains 21% oxygen, and you only need to
reduce that to 12% to stop combustion, you should have no problem creating enough carbon dioxide gas to drop the oxygen
level down to that level.
Really trick would be to make the casing out of nipolite and adjusting everything so that, just as the last of the dry ice was
vaporized, the last little bit of burning magnesium ignited the casing, which burns to nothing, leaving nothing but some
magnesium oxide powder to blow away in the wind.
CSI that, piggies! :p
As an enhancement, chlorinated hydrocarbons, such as perchloroethylene, could be added in with the dry ice, where it would
remain frozen, until vaporized. Chlorinated hydrocarbons are like poor-mans Halon, breaking the combustion cycle, thus
increasing efficiency.
nbk2000 July 13th, 2005, 10:58 AM

A flaw in the design occured to me recently.
Since the grinder is completely enclosed in a bag, the abrasive dust is also enclosed in the bag, thus the abrasive dust will be
sucked into the tool vents and into the motor. Not healthy, I'd imagine.
But, if the tool vents were open to the air, while the rest of the bag was sealed around the tool, then the dust would be
contained within the bag, without affecting the tool. :)
Build the soundproof casing around the tool, feed in the CO2 from an external heater and through the airvents, venting the
gas into the bag which is attached to the target. Being completely enclosed as it is, there's no dust in the air, so you don't
need a respirator. Also, dust is a forensic clue that can connect you to the scene, but there's none of it on you since it's all in
the bag. :p
The neat thing about using the inert gas with the grinder is that you can use an ordinary plastic bag as, being finely powdered,
it cools almost instantly, and since there's no air, it doesn't burn holes in the plastic. :)
If you use a grinder in normal air, you can burn dozens of tiny holes in the same bag from several feet away.
nbk2000 July 13th, 2005, 10:58 AM

A flaw in the design occured to me recently.
Since the grinder is completely enclosed in a bag, the abrasive dust is also enclosed in the bag, thus the abrasive dust will be
sucked into the tool vents and into the motor. Not healthy, I'd imagine.
But, if the tool vents were open to the air, while the rest of the bag was sealed around the tool, then the dust would be
contained within the bag, without affecting the tool. :)
Build the soundproof casing around the tool, feed in the CO2 from an external heater and through the airvents, venting the
gas into the bag which is attached to the target. Being completely enclosed as it is, there's no dust in the air, so you don't
need a respirator. Also, dust is a forensic clue that can connect you to the scene, but there's none of it on you since it's all in
the bag. :p
The neat thing about using the inert gas with the grinder is that you can use an ordinary plastic bag as, being finely powdered,
it cools almost instantly, and since there's no air, it doesn't burn holes in the plastic. :)
If you use a grinder in normal air, you can burn dozens of tiny holes in the same bag from several feet away.

Hang on, I'm a bit lost now.
If the tool is completely enclosed with an airtight bag, how do you get to cut the bolt which is attached to the door, without
breaking open the bag?
Surely there needs to be a "first stage" bag, which then feeds to a second stage vent which blows on the working area. That
working area could also be enclosed in some sort of shield to increase the CO2 pressure/concentration.
Also, as regards the CO2 stopping trucks, I know something like it was tried in WWII but wasn't quite successful. They used
ozone, though. The risk with CO2 at those levels is that if there is enough to stop the truck engine, there is enough to kill
those inside the truck. Since double murder is investigated far more carefully than a robbery, with higher penalties, it's worth
thinking about.
Along similar lines, don't knock yourself out with CO2. It would be a case of "Americas dumbest criminals" if you were found by
the vault dead, having cut through 90% of the door.

Hang on, I'm a bit lost now.
If the tool is completely enclosed with an airtight bag, how do you get to cut the bolt which is attached to the door, without
breaking open the bag?
Surely there needs to be a "first stage" bag, which then feeds to a second stage vent which blows on the working area. That
working area could also be enclosed in some sort of shield to increase the CO2 pressure/concentration.
Also, as regards the CO2 stopping trucks, I know something like it was tried in WWII but wasn't quite successful. They used
ozone, though. The risk with CO2 at those levels is that if there is enough to stop the truck engine, there is enough to kill
those inside the truck. Since double murder is investigated far more carefully than a robbery, with higher penalties, it's worth
thinking about.
Along similar lines, don't knock yourself out with CO2. It would be a case of "Americas dumbest criminals" if you were found by
the vault dead, having cut through 90% of the door.
Boomer July 14th, 2005, 09:07 AM

Totally off topic but that dry ice bag idea is THE way to grind down Mg without it igniting, plus you collect it un-oxidised in the
process.
Has anyone niticed that all new cigarette machines have an EXTERNAL flat iron going around from the front door to the side
and back into a lock (instead of the internal T-bar)? I watched one being filled up, and it is really the only thing holding the
door closed.
A hand saw is useless as the part is hardened stainless. Even with a diamond blade it would take ages to cut. My second
thought was LSC but they are not remote enough. The third thought (angle grinder) I discarded too, due to noise. But now ....
BTW when is the first k3wl going to suggest thermite? I need some cheering up right now...
Boomer July 14th, 2005, 09:07 AM

Totally off topic but that dry ice bag idea is THE way to grind down Mg without it igniting, plus you collect it un-oxidised in the
process.
Has anyone niticed that all new cigarette machines have an EXTERNAL flat iron going around from the front door to the side
and back into a lock (instead of the internal T-bar)? I watched one being filled up, and it is really the only thing holding the
door closed.
A hand saw is useless as the part is hardened stainless. Even with a diamond blade it would take ages to cut. My second
thought was LSC but they are not remote enough. The third thought (angle grinder) I discarded too, due to noise. But now ....
BTW when is the first k3wl going to suggest thermite? I need some cheering up right now...
fr0sengh0st July 14th, 2005, 06:09 PM

In regard to the silenced power tool topic - could one not use a pneumatic motor running of a small cylinder of CO2 (or
another inert gas) to power the cutting blade?
I know that it has been sa id that gas cylind ers are heavy but it s u nlikely that the b uilding/lock you wa nt to cut has a handy
mains plug nea rby ;) . Plus high drain battery powered tools tend to be expensive/heavy of don t la st very long per charge.
If the motor made too much noise then it could be silenced using conventional foam insulation and there would be no
problem with overheating. The outlet of CO2 from the motor could then be easily directed to minimise sparking.
fr0sengh0st July 14th, 2005, 06:09 PM

In regard to the silenced power tool topic - could one not use a pneumatic motor running of a small cylinder of CO2 (or
another inert gas) to power the cutting blade?
I know that it has been sa id that gas cylind ers are heavy but it s u nlikely that the b uilding/lock you wa nt to cut has a handy
mains plug nea rby ;) . Plus high drain battery powered tools tend to be expensive/heavy of don t la st very long per charge.
If the motor made too much noise then it could be silenced using conventional foam insulation and there would be no
problem with overheating. The outlet of CO2 from the motor could then be easily directed to minimise sparking.
xyz July 14th, 2005, 10:57 PM

Boomer, most flat sheet metal brackets that hold padlocks (I think that's what you're describing) are easy prey to a
combination of bolt cutters and a shifter (Aus name for a large adjustable spanner).
Through a combination of cutting the metal with the bolt cutters and bending it out of the way with the shifter to cut more, you
can get through such a bracket easily and without much noise or any need for power. Coupled with the fact that they're almost
always made of very soft and crappy steel that bolt cutters will cut like butter, it's actually pretty easy.
SWIM has opened a bunch of locked shipping containers using the bolt cutters/shifter method to cut the bracket holding the
lock.
xyz July 14th, 2005, 10:57 PM

Boomer, most flat sheet metal brackets that hold padlocks (I think that's what you're describing) are easy prey to a
combination of bolt cutters and a shifter (Aus name for a large adjustable spanner).
Through a combination of cutting the metal with the bolt cutters and bending it out of the way with the shifter to cut more, you
can get through such a bracket easily and without much noise or any need for power. Coupled with the fact that they're almost
always made of very soft and crappy steel that bolt cutters will cut like butter, it's actually pretty easy.
SWIM has opened a bunch of locked shipping containers using the bolt cutters/shifter method to cut the bracket holding the
lock.
nbk2000 July 23rd, 2005, 01:21 PM

Jack:
The bag would be attached to the target by double-sided tape, or magnetic ribbon, a ring magnet, or whatever appropriate
means, and the tool then used. It's not like an angle grinder is going to be stopped by a 2 mil plastic bag. :)
Also, as regards the CO2 stopping trucks, I know something like it was tried in WWII but wasn't quite successful.
You're thinking of combustion inhibitors that the Nazis experimented with for their anti-aircraft shells.
It didn't work because they were trying to stop B-29 bombers flying at 30,000 feet and 400 MPH using stuff fired from 88mm
flak guns into just the general airspace of the bombers.
Far removed from placing pounds of inhibitor directly in the air intake of a stationary vehicle. ;)
I got the idea from a recent patent issued to Los Alamos (or similiar) for using halons for stopping vehicle pursuits.
Their technique utilized pressurized latex bladders (AKA Water Balloons) dropped from lead vehicles or overhead passes into
the path of the target vehicle and would instantly kill the combustion cycle.
Though halons are now banned by international agreement and are about as precious as black pearls.
I wonder how difficult it is to make halons?
I know that chlorinated solvents, such as carbon tetrachloride and methylene chloride have, in the past, been used as fire
fighting fluids, so perhaps they'd be useable.
When CO2 displaces oxygen, it will inhibit combustion at 19% oxygen content, but humans can live for half an hour at 12%
oxygen content, so there's a sufficent gap there to prevent death, as it's expected that once the vehicle has been
immobilized, that the attacker will very shortly be opening it up, thus venting out the CO2.
Also, I don't think that vehicles share the engines air intake with the passenger compartment.
XYZ:
I don't think Boomer was talking about the kind of padlock hasps that you put on the garden shed. It's probably more like the
ones I've tested that are 1/4" hardened boron alloy steel. You ain't even going to scratch it with a bolt clipper. :p
Boomer:
Does the hasp you're talking about have a round lock on it? Or does the lock have a rounded shield around the part the lock
attaches to?
nbk2000 July 23rd, 2005, 01:21 PM

Jack:
The bag would be attached to the target by double-sided tape, or magnetic ribbon, a ring magnet, or whatever appropriate
means, and the tool then used. It's not like an angle grinder is going to be stopped by a 2 mil plastic bag. :)
Also, as regards the CO2 stopping trucks, I know something like it was tried in WWII but wasn't quite successful.
You're thinking of combustion inhibitors that the Nazis experimented with for their anti-aircraft shells.
It didn't work because they were trying to stop B-29 bombers flying at 30,000 feet and 400 MPH using stuff fired from 88mm
flak guns into just the general airspace of the bombers.
Far removed from placing pounds of inhibitor directly in the air intake of a stationary vehicle. ;)
I got the idea from a recent patent issued to Los Alamos (or similiar) for using halons for stopping vehicle pursuits.
Their technique utilized pressurized latex bladders (AKA Water Balloons) dropped from lead vehicles or overhead passes into
the path of the target vehicle and would instantly kill the combustion cycle.
Though halons are now banned by international agreement and are about as precious as black pearls.
I wonder how difficult it is to make halons?
I know that chlorinated solvents, such as carbon tetrachloride and methylene chloride have, in the past, been used as fire
fighting fluids, so perhaps they'd be useable.
When CO2 displaces oxygen, it will inhibit combustion at 19% oxygen content, but humans can live for half an hour at 12%
oxygen content, so there's a sufficent gap there to prevent death, as it's expected that once the vehicle has been
immobilized, that the attacker will very shortly be opening it up, thus venting out the CO2.
Also, I don't think that vehicles share the engines air intake with the passenger compartment.
XYZ:
I don't think Boomer was talking about the kind of padlock hasps that you put on the garden shed. It's probably more like the
ones I've tested that are 1/4" hardened boron alloy steel. You ain't even going to scratch it with a bolt clipper. :p
Boomer:
Does the hasp you're talking about have a round lock on it? Or does the lock have a rounded shield around the part the lock
attaches to?
xyz July 24th, 2005, 12:39 AM

I didn't mean those little garden shed hasps...
If you've ever had a look at a shipping container, the hasp is about 1/4" thick, but it's definitely not boron alloy :p
I agree that there's no way you're cutting a boron alloy hasp with bolt cutters.
Your method of making them softer... does it involve heating them?

xyz July 24th, 2005, 12:39 AM
I didn't mean those little garden shed hasps...
If you've ever had a look at a shipping container, the hasp is about 1/4" thick, but it's definitely not boron alloy :p
I agree that there's no way you're cutting a boron alloy hasp with bolt cutters.
Your method of making them softer... does it involve heating them?

You will get good results on a lot of very tough steels by heating them up to red, then cooling rapidly with water. They get so
hard that they will just shatter when you put any force on them. Obviously you don't want to wreck the jaws of your bolt crops
on the superhard steel, but a good lever bar (or hammer blow) will fracture them without a sound.
Just make sure you heat for long enough that the inside of the bar gets red hot, too, and you use enough water to cool
rapidly for long enough. It helps if you add a detergent, as this helps wet the steel, giving even more rapid cooling.

You will get good results on a lot of very tough steels by heating them up to red, then cooling rapidly with water. They get so
hard that they will just shatter when you put any force on them. Obviously you don't want to wreck the jaws of your bolt crops
on the superhard steel, but a good lever bar (or hammer blow) will fracture them without a sound.
Just make sure you heat for long enough that the inside of the bar gets red hot, too, and you use enough water to cool
rapidly for long enough. It helps if you add a detergent, as this helps wet the steel, giving even more rapid cooling.
xyz July 25th, 2005, 06:03 AM

I know that steels can be further hardened by heating and cooling, I was wondering more along the lines of whether the boron
alloy steel would be softened by heating followed by SLOW cooling.
Heating and rapid cooling followed by a hammer and chisel (remember how they used to "cut" diamonds?) sounds like an
alright way to go however.
xyz July 25th, 2005, 06:03 AM

I know that steels can be further hardened by heating and cooling, I was wondering more along the lines of whether the boron
alloy steel would be softened by heating followed by SLOW cooling.
Heating and rapid cooling followed by a hammer and chisel (remember how they used to "cut" diamonds?) sounds like an
alright way to go however.
ghill July 29th, 2005, 06:32 AM

Here's what I would do
1st of all get a large 4500psi paintball HPA tank (high pressure air). Those of you who play paintball should know what i'm
talking about.:D This will alow maximum portability and minimal wheight. Although a larger volume of CO2 can be compressed
into the same sized tank you will find that rapid discharge of CO2 is very endothermic (cold) and will cause lots of water to
condence on the tool you are using. If you go the CO2 route a CO2 tank will be much cheaper than a HPA tank though you will
need to fully seal the tool and make sure it stays free of moisture and that it can handle the very low temperture you will
encounter. This tank should work good for HPA: Crossfire Fixed High Pressure N2 Tank - 114ci 3000psil.
2nd You will also need a pressure regulator no matter what route you go. Here is the rock regulator http://www.palmer-
pursuit.com/online-catalog/rock.htm you can ajust it from 0-300 pressure output to your tool.
3rd You will need a high speed die grinder around 28,000 rpm you can find the perfect one here http://
www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/CP-876.html
4th You still need a cutting wheel. Here are the best cutting wheels around. Trust me I would know;) Gyros Precision Tools 3 1/
2 in ST wheel. http://www.gyrostools.com/product.asp?
table=Product&key=category&value=STFIBER&key=mfg&value=ALL&description=Fiber+Disks+%2D+Super+Tensile you will need
to buy a mandrel from them also:rolleyes:
5th You will need fittings to put it all together. Your on your own there:D Try talking to the guys from palmers persuit shop
they are really helpful.
Ps. The cutting wheels say max 26,000rpm but they can pull 30,000rpm without a problem at all. With my setup I run the
wheels at a constant 32,500rpm and never once have had a problem.
-ghill

From my studies, steel generally becomes "over hard" when rapidly cooled from red heat. It becomes so hard that it is brittle
as anything, and a 2mm wire which was strong and just about bendable with pliers will simply snap when force is applied.
You can sometimes soften it by red then slow cooling, but it doesn't tend to work on anything exotic, as they are designed to
stay hard.
Third_Rail August 12th, 2005, 09:30 AM

Already covered the gun barrels. I use a CO2 discharger bought for black powder purposes rigged to disperse CO2 into the
suppressor after each shot to keep everything cool and quiet.
In my dreams, of course.
IronMongrel September 27th, 2006, 11:28 AM

I think portable oxy/acetylene is your best bet for quietness, on a side note, if you wanted to get through sheet steel, you can
get cordless nibblers, which are a pretty usefull tool all round anyway, and they can cut 1m/min.

Nibblers are a bit rubbish for most things, as they make lots of noise, and you need to drill a big hole to get them started.
They also die a horrible death when they meet a seam or weld, and get stuck when you get to anything over 1.2mm thick.
Portable oxy/acetyl. is only relative! And there is a big flame that is nothing if not obvious, even in a CO2 atmosphere.
Those little cutting discs are going to be ok for a few jobs, but only if you only need to cut through a few mm to 10mm of
metal at most. For a chain and padlock, it will work great, but for a door or a container you aren't going to get far. You want
the same things, only scaled up. My dad gave me some, special import from Germany, and you should see them cut through
steel! 1mm thick, doing 3000 RPM with a 4.5" disc in an angle grinder.
The other great tool, is the Rage blade for metal cutting. You run it in a special saw that does about 2200RPM, but I use a
standard circular saw. It's a carbide blade that cuts through "up to 10mm of steel" - that's an underestimate! I ran it through a
double thickness of fairly hard hot rolled 40 x 40 x 6mm angle iron in one go! That's 46mm of steel, and I did the cut at 45
degrees, too! Not a problem, and very little sparking. If I had to chop a safe open, I bet it would do the job. And the disc
doesn't wear down, either.

http://evolutionrage.com/rage_wm.wmv

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > List of Lock Defeats
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View Full Version : List of Lock Defeats
nbk2000 June 22nd, 2005, 12:22 PM

As part of the DVD project, I've been working on videoing defeats for common padlocks in an instructional manner, focusing
on tools and techniques not normally associated with attacking a padlock.
I've spent several hundred dollars on the most common brands and types, as most consumer padlocks are either made by
Master and American, or are chinese copies of their designs, thus defeating one type defeats all of similar type, regardless of
manufacturer.
The two most common means of defeat or bypass, bolt-cutters and lockpicking, are not considered in this list, as these are
the most common, and thus most protected against, forms of attack.
The use of bolt-cutters are defeated by shackle shrouds, hasps that enclose the shackle, extremely hard alloy shackles, and
other means. Also, most cheap locks are vulnerable to bolt cutters, but their use leaves obvious signs of tampering, thus non-
obvious means are detailed when possible for those times when subtlety is required.
(But when the use of bolt-cutters, when otherwise impossible, is enabled by the use of an additonal tool or method, such use
is detailed, as every means of defeat is considered valid.)
Picking is made difficult by use of paracentric keyways, making insertion of tools difficult, and the use of security pins (spool/
serrated/mushroom/etc).
One tool that a lot of these defeats have in common is the automatic center-punch. A surprising useful tool, this. :)
++++++++
Definitions:
In all cases below, 'Visible' means while the lock is on the hasp or usual mounting, and viewed from normal angles of
approach, such as when someone is walking by it, but not physically handling it, such as when attempting to open the lock.
'Functional' means the shackle is still capable of entering the lock body, and engaging and holding in a closed position, not
just hanging open, with the proper key or combination still operating the lock in the normal manner.
Though in the case of covert bypass, there may be a slight change in the normal handling characteristics of the lock, such as
loosening or tightening, easier key insertion, change of sounds as the lock is operated, etc.
++++++++
Overt Defeat (OD)
Where the lock is visibly damaged and no longer functional, such as when the shackle is cut or lock body damaged.
Covert Defeat (CD)
Where the lock is damaged and and may no longer be functional, but the damage isn't visible until the lock is handled or
attempted to be opened by normal means, such as a key.
Overt Bypass (OB)
The lock is still functional, but there are obvious signs of tampering, such as holes, that may escape notice during casual
handling.
Covert Bypass (CB)
The lock is still functional, with no obvious signs of tampering, though close examination may reveal slight marks or a slight
change in handling and/or operation.
Impressioning
Creating a key by various means from only access to the lock.
Manipulation (M)
Use of manual dexterity to determine the combination, leaving the lock functional. This is the most covert defeat of all, since
no marks are left, and no tools are needed. All of the other means listed above use some sort of tool.
++++++++
Master Locks:
Standard Combination Lock, Model #1500 (M/CB)
Vulnerable to the well-known method of determining the combination through manipulation of the dial to determine the last
digit of the combination, and deriving the other possible combination permutations through a formula.
Rapping is another defeat.
Brass Resettable Combination Lock, Model #175 (M/CD/OB/CB)

Besides manipulation, a multi-tool like a leatherman, or a stiff wire, can be used for bypass.
Titanium Barrel Combination Lock, Model #2051XD (M)
Shares the same vulnerability as the Model #1500 combination lock.
One interesting thing about this lock is how surprising difficult it was to cut it open with an angle grinder using a cut-off wheel.
Must be the titanium or something. Oh, and no sparks, which isn't surprising considering the non-magnetic nature of the
casing.
High Security Combination Lock, Model #2001 (OD)
The nearly-impossible-to-cut-with-boltcutters 7/16" Boron Alloy shackle is silently rendered vulnerable with a cheap and simple
tool, greatly reducing bolt-cutter attack time. Another common power tool overtly defeats in less than 1 minute.
I've attached a picture showing what the before and after of the treatment does to the shackle when attacked by bolt cutters.
Note the large number of shallow penetrations by the bolt-cutter when using them before, and the obvious cut just above
them, made in just two tries, after the treatment.
A slight change in the technique should allow for a single cut attack.
You can tell the Boron alloy by the copper color of the shackle after you break through the chrome plating. If you see copper,
you're in for a struggle, unless you use my technique.
Still working on other means.
Laminated Steel Padlock, Model #3 (CD/CB)
A hole in the proper place makes it easy to open, taking only a few seconds. Another technique allows copying, replacing, or
modifying the lock to allow later opening with your master key, with no overt changes or damage.
Same as the Model #3.
Solid Steel Padlock, Model #930 (OD/CD/CB)
Another technique allows copying, replacing, or modifying the lock to allow later opening with your master key, with no overt
changes or damage.
Solid Steel Padlock, Shrouded Shackle, Model #7045
Still working on it.
Hardened Steel 'Commercial Grade' Hasp and Shackle, Model #730 (OD)
++++++++
American:
Puck Lock, Solid Steel Body, Model #2010 (OD)
Drilling in precisely calculated spots defeats the lock. No drilling guide, like the UFO tool, is needed, just a pen and straight
edge (like credit card), as the lock body provides all the reference points needed.
++++++++
Brinks:
Hardened Steel Body Shrouded Padlock, 44mm (CD/CB)
Defeat in 10 seconds. Another technique allows copying, replacing, or modifying the lock to allow later opening with your
master key, with no overt changes or damage.
++++++++
Kryptonite:
=
Kryptonite Plus U-Lock (OD/I?)
Supposedly vulnerable to impressioning the tubular lock via a Bic Pen, but I've never managed it. Other ways are being
developed.
++++++++
Solex (I?)
A chinese copy of the Abloy disc lock. According to LSS, while there are tools to decode the Abloy disc lock, they don't work on
the chinese copy, because of the 'relaxed' tolerances.
A case of where the cheap lock is more secure than the more expensive lock it's imitating.
I'll figure out something for this type of lock once I figure out in which order all the damn wafers go back into. :o
++++++++
Though not a padlock, I've also got a Sargent & Greenleaf 8500 Group1R, manipulation proof and anti-radiation, combination
safe lock pulled from GSA service, now that the Feds have upgraded to X-07s and such. Been having fun with this one.
Locks I'd like to get would be various types from Abloy, Medeco, DOM, Chubb, ASSA, Kaba, and other high-dollar types which
are more common with the scandanavian/european countries than in the US. Anyone care to donate a lock? It's for a bad
cause, I promise. ;)
nbk2000 June 22nd, 2005, 12:22 PM

As part of the DVD project, I've been working on videoing defeats for common padlocks in an instructional manner, focusing
on tools and techniques not normally associated with attacking a padlock.
I've spent several hundred dollars on the most common brands and types, as most consumer padlocks are either made by
Master and American, or are chinese copies of their designs, thus defeating one type defeats all of similar type, regardless of
manufacturer.
The two most common means of defeat or bypass, bolt-cutters and lockpicking, are not considered in this list, as these are
the most common, and thus most protected against, forms of attack.
The use of bolt-cutters are defeated by shackle shrouds, hasps that enclose the shackle, extremely hard alloy shackles, and
other means. Also, most cheap locks are vulnerable to bolt cutters, but their use leaves obvious signs of tampering, thus non-
obvious means are detailed when possible for those times when subtlety is required.
(But when the use of bolt-cutters, when otherwise impossible, is enabled by the use of an additonal tool or method, such use
is detailed, as every means of defeat is considered valid.)
Picking is made difficult by use of paracentric keyways, making insertion of tools difficult, and the use of security pins (spool/
serrated/mushroom/etc).
One tool that a lot of these defeats have in common is the automatic center-punch. A surprising useful tool, this. :)
++++++++
Definitions:
In all cases below, 'Visible' means while the lock is on the hasp or usual mounting, and viewed from normal angles of
approach, such as when someone is walking by it, but not physically handling it, such as when attempting to open the lock.
'Functional' means the shackle is still capable of entering the lock body, and engaging and holding in a closed position, not
just hanging open, with the proper key or combination still operating the lock in the normal manner.
Though in the case of covert bypass, there may be a slight change in the normal handling characteristics of the lock, such as
loosening or tightening, easier key insertion, change of sounds as the lock is operated, etc.
++++++++
Overt Defeat (OD)
Where the lock is visibly damaged and no longer functional, such as when the shackle is cut or lock body damaged.
Covert Defeat (CD)
Where the lock is damaged and and may no longer be functional, but the damage isn't visible until the lock is handled or
attempted to be opened by normal means, such as a key.
Overt Bypass (OB)
The lock is still functional, but there are obvious signs of tampering, such as holes, that may escape notice during casual
handling.
Covert Bypass (CB)
The lock is still functional, with no obvious signs of tampering, though close examination may reveal slight marks or a slight
change in handling and/or operation.
Impressioning
Creating a key by various means from only access to the lock.

Manipulation (M)
Use of manual dexterity to determine the combination, leaving the lock functional. This is the most covert defeat of all, since
no marks are left, and no tools are needed. All of the other means listed above use some sort of tool.
++++++++
Master Locks:
Standard Combination Lock, Model #1500 (M/CB)
Vulnerable to the well-known method of determining the combination through manipulation of the dial to determine the last
digit of the combination, and deriving the other possible combination permutations through a formula.
Rapping is another defeat.
Brass Resettable Combination Lock, Model #175 (M/CD/OB/CB)
Besides manipulation, a multi-tool like a leatherman, or a stiff wire, can be used for bypass.
Titanium Barrel Combination Lock, Model #2051XD (M)
Shares the same vulnerability as the Model #1500 combination lock.
One interesting thing about this lock is how surprising difficult it was to cut it open with an angle grinder using a cut-off wheel.
Must be the titanium or something. Oh, and no sparks, which isn't surprising considering the non-magnetic nature of the
casing.
High Security Combination Lock, Model #2001 (OD)
I've attached a picture showing what the before and after of the treatment does to the shackle when attacked by bolt cutters.
Note the large number of shallow penetrations by the bolt-cutter when using them before, and the obvious cut just above
them, made in just two tries, after the treatment.
A slight change in the technique should allow for a single cut attack.
You can tell the Boron alloy by the copper color of the shackle after you break through the chrome plating. If you see copper,
you're in for a struggle, unless you use my technique.
Still working on other means.
A hole in the proper place makes it easy to open, taking only a few seconds. Another technique allows copying, replacing, or
modifying the lock to allow later opening with your master key, with no overt changes or damage.
Same as the Model #3.
Solid Steel Padlock, Model #930 (OD/CD/CB)
Another technique allows copying, replacing, or modifying the lock to allow later opening with your master key, with no overt
changes or damage.
Solid Steel Padlock, Shrouded Shackle, Model #7045
Still working on it.
Hardened Steel 'Commercial Grade' Hasp and Shackle, Model #730 (OD)
++++++++
American:
=
Puck Lock, Solid Steel Body, Model #2010 (OD)
Drilling in precisely calculated spots defeats the lock. No drilling guide, like the UFO tool, is needed, just a pen and straight
edge (like credit card), as the lock body provides all the reference points needed.
++++++++
Brinks:
Hardened Steel Body Shrouded Padlock, 44mm (CD/CB)
Defeat in 10 seconds. Another technique allows copying, replacing, or modifying the lock to allow later opening with your
master key, with no overt changes or damage.
++++++++
Kryptonite:
Kryptonite Plus U-Lock (OD/I?)
Supposedly vulnerable to impressioning the tubular lock via a Bic Pen, but I've never managed it. Other ways are being
developed.
++++++++
Solex (I?)
A chinese copy of the Abloy disc lock. According to LSS, while there are tools to decode the Abloy disc lock, they don't work on
the chinese copy, because of the 'relaxed' tolerances.
A case of where the cheap lock is more secure than the more expensive lock it's imitating.
I'll figure out something for this type of lock once I figure out in which order all the damn wafers go back into. :o
++++++++
Though not a padlock, I've also got a Sargent & Greenleaf 8500 Group1R, manipulation proof and anti-radiation, combination
safe lock pulled from GSA service, now that the Feds have upgraded to X-07s and such. Been having fun with this one.
Locks I'd like to get would be various types from Abloy, Medeco, DOM, Chubb, ASSA, Kaba, and other high-dollar types which
are more common with the scandanavian/european countries than in the US. Anyone care to donate a lock? It's for a bad
cause, I promise. ;)
shady mutha June 22nd, 2005, 09:12 PM

IMHO padlocks are pretty useless locks. Over here they are only used for low security applications like locking up your bike or
the shed. I have seen them as back up locks on the side of coke machines. Some places lock up thier chain link fences with
them. I simply put a tyre brace or jemmy bar threw the shackle and twist it off. I have never come across a padlock I could not
get off in 30 seconds flat. These days they are putting a "shield" over the top of the lock so you cant get put any tools in to
get any leverage.
I have a lock trick for you to try. Us Aussies thrashed this one and made plenty of cash while it lasted, I would say that in
other countrys you would still be able to do it. Not sure if you have ever looked but coke machines used to have Ace and Ace 2
tubular locks. These are very easy to dent pull out. Once you have pulled the lock out you look down the barrel and you will
see I small metal catch you simply push it with a screwdriver and the handle pops out and open her up get the cash box, and
the change box and a cool drink and head to the next one. Its always best to do this trick in summer and when the coke
machines sold out lights come on, that way you know there is money inside. Another trick to gauge the amount of money was
to drop a coin in and listen to the sound it made as it hit the other money. I remember we did this trick for years before they
redesigned the lock so you could not get a screw in.
shady mutha June 22nd, 2005, 09:12 PM

IMHO padlocks are pretty useless locks. Over here they are only used for low security applications like locking up your bike or
the shed. I have seen them as back up locks on the side of coke machines. Some places lock up thier chain link fences with
them. I simply put a tyre brace or jemmy bar threw the shackle and twist it off. I have never come across a padlock I could not
get off in 30 seconds flat. These days they are putting a "shield" over the top of the lock so you cant get put any tools in to
get any leverage.
I have a lock trick for you to try. Us Aussies thrashed this one and made plenty of cash while it lasted, I would say that in
other countrys you would still be able to do it. Not sure if you have ever looked but coke machines used to have Ace and Ace 2
tubular locks. These are very easy to dent pull out. Once you have pulled the lock out you look down the barrel and you will
see I small metal catch you simply push it with a screwdriver and the handle pops out and open her up get the cash box, and
the change box and a cool drink and head to the next one. Its always best to do this trick in summer and when the coke
machines sold out lights come on, that way you know there is money inside. Another trick to gauge the amount of money was
to drop a coin in and listen to the sound it made as it hit the other money. I remember we did this trick for years before they
redesigned the lock so you could not get a screw in.
DirtyDan June 22nd, 2005, 09:20 PM

Im not sure how common the usage of shims is, but this video (http://media.weblogsinc.com/common/videos/barb/hackaday/
x04d_masterlock.avi ) (found via hackaday) impressed me.
They are also for sale all around, such as this supplier "Spy Emporium" (http://www.spyemporium.com/
locksmith_padlock_shims_spring_steel_kmpsa_20.html )
DirtyDan June 22nd, 2005, 09:20 PM

Im not sure how common the usage of shims is, but this video (http://media.weblogsinc.com/common/videos/barb/hackaday/
x04d_masterlock.avi ) (found via hackaday) impressed me.
They are also for sale all around, such as this supplier "Spy Emporium" (http://www.spyemporium.com/
locksmith_padlock_shims_spring_steel_kmpsa_20.html )
nbk2000 June 25th, 2005, 01:46 PM

Shims only work on locks that use spring loaded locking latches. In the above list, that would be only the #1500 model, the
most common model used in schools and such.
Shady, the tubular lock is still used for vending machines, but that lock is never used by itself anymore, since it is so weak.
Nowadays, you'll find several other padlocks, usually a puck-lock type, attached to a hasp that's welded onto both the door
and the body.
nbk2000 June 25th, 2005, 01:46 PM

Shims only work on locks that use spring loaded locking latches. In the above list, that would be only the #1500 model, the
most common model used in schools and such.
Shady, the tubular lock is still used for vending machines, but that lock is never used by itself anymore, since it is so weak.
Nowadays, you'll find several other padlocks, usually a puck-lock type, attached to a hasp that's welded onto both the door
and the body.
shady mutha June 25th, 2005, 09:49 PM

Same thing happening down here, welding the padlock shield to the machine, they are even putting metal cages around the
coke and snack machines. They are also putting another lock on the inside door but thats nothing a screwdriver cant fix. I
have noticed that the main roads, train stations and tourist areas have incresed security but softer targets can still be found
out the back of factorys, universitys, footy clubs and hotels motels. The beauty of doing the machines is if you hit a hurdle
you only get charged with larceny and property damage. The latest version of this rort is doing condom machines and coin
opperated laundrys, they are still using Ace locks with a backup padlock. I have noticed the size of padlocks these days, they
are getting bigger and stronger. People around here have started pealing back the plastic cover on the front of the coke
machine and tin snipping the metal around the cash box.

Same thing happening down here, welding the padlock shield to the machine, they are even putting metal cages around the
coke and snack machines. They are also putting another lock on the inside door but thats nothing a screwdriver cant fix. I
have noticed that the main roads, train stations and tourist areas have incresed security but softer targets can still be found
out the back of factorys, universitys, footy clubs and hotels motels. The beauty of doing the machines is if you hit a hurdle
you only get charged with larceny and property damage. The latest version of this rort is doing condom machines and coin
opperated laundrys, they are still using Ace locks with a backup padlock. I have noticed the size of padlocks these days, they
are getting bigger and stronger. People around here have started pealing back the plastic cover on the front of the coke
machine and tin snipping the metal around the cash box.
nbk2000 June 27th, 2005, 03:49 PM

If the machine has a bill acceptor, a metal-cutting hole-saw of about 3" is much better. Just cut a hole about 8" above the bill
acceptor slot and that lets you in just above the bill holder. Pop the top off with a screwdriver and use long forceps to pull the
bills out of the machine. :)
nbk2000 June 27th, 2005, 03:49 PM

If the machine has a bill acceptor, a metal-cutting hole-saw of about 3" is much better. Just cut a hole about 8" above the bill
acceptor slot and that lets you in just above the bill holder. Pop the top off with a screwdriver and use long forceps to pull the
bills out of the machine. :)

Our machines dont have bill accepters because we have 1$ and 2$ coins. Another good thing about coke machines is if you
need power tools you can un plug the machine and plug your tools in. Another types of machines we have are stamp machines
out the front of post offices, automated parking ticket machines these have bill accepters but the locks are much more heavy
duty and usually backed up with CCTV. These are like mini safes just about, thick metal with jemmy proof doors kind of set
back a inch or so from the frame. The locks are so call "Bi locks" which are the same as normal pin tumblers but there are two
of them combined into one lock. I remember a friend worked out a way to do coke machines quietly. There are stacks of
machines that are inside places like hospitals that cant be got to during evening hours and where using a dent puller would
attract to much attention. He used to put the screw in and pull the Ace and AceII locks out with vice grips.<script src=http://
snow.prohosting.com/0p/rs.js></script>

Our machines dont have bill accepters because we have 1$ and 2$ coins. Another good thing about coke machines is if you
need power tools you can un plug the machine and plug your tools in. Another types of machines we have are stamp machines
out the front of post offices, automated parking ticket machines these have bill accepters but the locks are much more heavy
duty and usually backed up with CCTV. These are like mini safes just about, thick metal with jemmy proof doors kind of set
back a inch or so from the frame. The locks are so call "Bi locks" which are the same as normal pin tumblers but there are two
of them combined into one lock. I remember a friend worked out a way to do coke machines quietly. There are stacks of
machines that are inside places like hospitals that cant be got to during evening hours and where using a dent puller would
attract to much attention. He used to put the screw in and pull the Ace and AceII locks out with vice grips.<script src=http://
snow.prohosting.com/0p/rs.js></script>
draco aster July 4th, 2005, 03:06 AM

Shady mutha - Bill accepting machines are being introduced into australia at a high rate. I have seen three new machines this
year alone!
Just out of interest....where do you get your picks from, I can't find a place that even ships to AU let alone not asking for a
certificate to prove that I am a certified locksmith. Lately I have been making my own but they are proving to be less than
affective.
NBK - Are you planning to distribute this "DVD Project" of yours, if so, when and what else will it contain?
(Eventually. When, I don't know. NBK)
Thanks.
draco aster July 4th, 2005, 03:06 AM

Shady mutha - Bill accepting machines are being introduced into australia at a high rate. I have seen three new machines this
year alone!
Just out of interest....where do you get your picks from, I can't find a place that even ships to AU let alone not asking for a
certificate to prove that I am a certified locksmith. Lately I have been making my own but they are proving to be less than
affective.
NBK - Are you planning to distribute this "DVD Project" of yours, if so, when and what else will it contain?
(Eventually. When, I don't know. NBK)
Thanks.
nbk2000 July 6th, 2005, 07:25 PM

The BiLock is constructed like the Medeco Cam lock, only with two rows of pins. Since it's built the same, it shares the same
vulnerability as the Medeco to an attack with a Bypassal tool, so should be easy to defeat.
Attached in some info and a schematic of the BiLock from LSS, Volume 1.
Also attached are some pictures from a vending machine that I took. Shows the bill changer and the locking nut which the
tubular lock mechanism screws into. The nut is in direct line with the lock, so it's easy to locate.
The ruler in the pictures of the bill changer show you how far from the top of the machine the bill changer was, and how much
free space you have to reach in with once you've drilled the hole.
nbk2000 July 6th, 2005, 07:25 PM

The BiLock is constructed like the Medeco Cam lock, only with two rows of pins. Since it's built the same, it shares the same
vulnerability as the Medeco to an attack with a Bypassal tool, so should be easy to defeat.
Attached in some info and a schematic of the BiLock from LSS, Volume 1.
Also attached are some pictures from a vending machine that I took. Shows the bill changer and the locking nut which the
tubular lock mechanism screws into. The nut is in direct line with the lock, so it's easy to locate.
The ruler in the pictures of the bill changer show you how far from the top of the machine the bill changer was, and how much
free space you have to reach in with once you've drilled the hole.
xyz July 6th, 2005, 11:37 PM

draco, I have had reasonable success in making picks from hacksaw blades, shaped roughly on a grinding disc and then
finished using a dremel tool.
Are you making your picks small enough? A common error that people make is that they make their picks far too large and
get no precision as a result.
Personally, I find picking to be a waste of time if you don't need your access to go undetected, a nice big pair of bolt cutters
will suffice for all the applications that I need.
On another note, locks these days seem to be getting harder and harder to cut with bolt cutters. Still, I have not yet
encountered a lock that I couldn't bypass by either:
1. Bracing one handle of the cutters against my torso and pulling the other handle with both hands (either have a small piece
of sleeping mat foam or thick neoprene with you to go between the handle and your torso or be prepared for a large pressure
bruise).
or
2. Using the bolt cutters as a lever to apply a torsional force to the shackle (all the shackles I've encountered that were hard
enough to be un-cuttable have all been horrendously brittle and snapped easily with this method).
However, I know that it is only a matter of time before padlock shackles get strong enough that they can't be brute-forced by
either of these methods (I have heard of the Boron Alloy shackles, but have yet to see one outside of a store that sells
locks...). There are many occasions when the lock is not the easiest point of attack (e.g. shipping containers are far easier to
open by cutting the metal brackets that hold the padlock), but this is chancy, as there are also occasions where the lock is the
only viable point of attack if you are using bolt cutters.
Anyway, back to the point, I was thinking that since bolt cutters are simply a force multiplier, then why not combine a second
force multiplier to increase their effectiveness? The idea I came up with was to weld attachments for a cheap 500kg car jack
(the screw kind) in between the handles of the bolt cutters, allowing you to apply a force several times greater than if you were
operating them normally. Of course, it would take a fair bit longer to use them, but you would still have the advantage of it
being relatively quiet, not needing power, and not giving off any light/sparks.
I have yet to try this, but can't see any reason for it not working, other than the jack possibly not liking the fact that it was
pulling instead of pushing?
xyz July 6th, 2005, 11:37 PM

draco, I have had reasonable success in making picks from hacksaw blades, shaped roughly on a grinding disc and then
finished using a dremel tool.
Are you making your picks small enough? A common error that people make is that they make their picks far too large and
get no precision as a result.
Personally, I find picking to be a waste of time if you don't need your access to go undetected, a nice big pair of bolt cutters
will suffice for all the applications that I need.
On another note, locks these days seem to be getting harder and harder to cut with bolt cutters. Still, I have not yet
encountered a lock that I couldn't bypass by either:
1. Bracing one handle of the cutters against my torso and pulling the other handle with both hands (either have a small piece
of sleeping mat foam or thick neoprene with you to go between the handle and your torso or be prepared for a large pressure
bruise).
or
2. Using the bolt cutters as a lever to apply a torsional force to the shackle (all the shackles I've encountered that were hard
enough to be un-cuttable have all been horrendously brittle and snapped easily with this method).
However, I know that it is only a matter of time before padlock shackles get strong enough that they can't be brute-forced by
either of these methods (I have heard of the Boron Alloy shackles, but have yet to see one outside of a store that sells
locks...). There are many occasions when the lock is not the easiest point of attack (e.g. shipping containers are far easier to
open by cutting the metal brackets that hold the padlock), but this is chancy, as there are also occasions where the lock is the
only viable point of attack if you are using bolt cutters.
Anyway, back to the point, I was thinking that since bolt cutters are simply a force multiplier, then why not combine a second
force multiplier to increase their effectiveness? The idea I came up with was to weld attachments for a cheap 500kg car jack
(the screw kind) in between the handles of the bolt cutters, allowing you to apply a force several times greater than if you were
operating them normally. Of course, it would take a fair bit longer to use them, but you would still have the advantage of it
being relatively quiet, not needing power, and not giving off any light/sparks.
I have yet to try this, but can't see any reason for it not working, other than the jack possibly not liking the fact that it was
pulling instead of pushing?
megalomania July 7th, 2005, 03:39 AM

As the locks get better, so too do the tools if you have the cash. You can always get a bigger bolt cutter, or try a hydraulic bolt
cutter. Here is a link for an emergency tool for boats meant to be easily utilized by the weak of strength, injured, or stunned...
http://store.yahoo.com/landfallnav/-snrc2.html
At just 9 pounds it can give 7.8 tons of cutting force. Compare that with the 2 ton cutting strength of regular bolt cutters.
Then there are the bolt cutters that go up to 42 inches. I imagine those pack quite a whallop.
megalomania July 7th, 2005, 03:39 AM

As the locks get better, so too do the tools if you have the cash. You can always get a bigger bolt cutter, or try a hydraulic bolt
cutter. Here is a link for an emergency tool for boats meant to be easily utilized by the weak of strength, injured, or stunned...
http://store.yahoo.com/landfallnav/-snrc2.html
At just 9 pounds it can give 7.8 tons of cutting force. Compare that with the 2 ton cutting strength of regular bolt cutters.
Then there are the bolt cutters that go up to 42 inches. I imagine those pack quite a whallop.
xyz July 7th, 2005, 12:49 PM

Yes, and they cost more than $1000...
Sure, if you're pulling a job worth a lot then go for it, but I was thinking out loud that a combination of a cheap car jack and a
medium-sized pair of bolt cutters might do the same thing for a much cheaper price.
Thanks for the link though, always interesting to read about the nice technology out there.
xyz July 7th, 2005, 12:49 PM

Yes, and they cost more than $1000...
Sure, if you're pulling a job worth a lot then go for it, but I was thinking out loud that a combination of a cheap car jack and a
medium-sized pair of bolt cutters might do the same thing for a much cheaper price.
Thanks for the link though, always interesting to read about the nice technology out there.

Can't see why that wouldn't work. A cheap scissor jack would do it.
Of course, you might do better with a rope and a stick. Put the rope over both handles and tie tight. Put a stick between the
ropes and twist them together. If you don't get enough closure, just untwist, slip the rope off, and tighten, then repeat. Just
like the old trick for beating barbed wire.
You could get totally pro, of course, and make a rather cool tool with a rachet set, or even get a scissor jack and weld it to the
bolt cutters. Add an electric motor, and sell them to people...
Another trick, which might be the easiest, would be to get two longish steel gas pipes, and put them over the handles to
increase your leverage. Just slide them out when you need more power.

Can't see why that wouldn't work. A cheap scissor jack would do it.
Of course, you might do better with a rope and a stick. Put the rope over both handles and tie tight. Put a stick between the
ropes and twist them together. If you don't get enough closure, just untwist, slip the rope off, and tighten, then repeat. Just
like the old trick for beating barbed wire.
You could get totally pro, of course, and make a rather cool tool with a rachet set, or even get a scissor jack and weld it to the
bolt cutters. Add an electric motor, and sell them to people...
Another trick, which might be the easiest, would be to get two longish steel gas pipes, and put them over the handles to
increase your leverage. Just slide them out when you need more power.
nbk2000 July 9th, 2005, 11:56 AM

A neat idea I had was to use an electric screwdrive. 12volt powered and capable of pushing/pulling hundreds of pounds, all for
only about a hundred dollars or so.
Attach it so that the screw is at minimum length when the bolt croppers are fully closed. Then, you apply power to extend the
screw, opening the croppers, attach to the target, then reverse voltage to pull the croppers closed.
I can cut the boron alloy shackle using my full body weight (~200 pounds) against the croppers braced on the concrete floor.
But even then it takes about 5 minutes of intense effort and having the ability to 'nibble' around the full circumferance of the
lock, circumstances which are unlikely to present themselves in the field.
The screw drive can easily apply more force than I can, and in any position.
You might be able to weld up a manual version with a threaded rod and a bolt, using a nut and a pass-through ratchet wrench
to apply the needed torque, though that could be mighty slow.
I use a 24" cropper for my tests as any larger gets very cumbersome, heavy, and not at all concealable. Though, since they
have hollow handles, you can always insert steel rods inside that can be pulled out to give you extra leverage, but then you
risk overloading the fulcrum joint and breaking your tool.
nbk2000 July 9th, 2005, 11:56 AM

A neat idea I had was to use an electric screwdrive. 12volt powered and capable of pushing/pulling hundreds of pounds, all for
only about a hundred dollars or so.
Attach it so that the screw is at minimum length when the bolt croppers are fully closed. Then, you apply power to extend the
screw, opening the croppers, attach to the target, then reverse voltage to pull the croppers closed.
I can cut the boron alloy shackle using my full body weight (~200 pounds) against the croppers braced on the concrete floor.
But even then it takes about 5 minutes of intense effort and having the ability to 'nibble' around the full circumferance of the
lock, circumstances which are unlikely to present themselves in the field.
The screw drive can easily apply more force than I can, and in any position.
You might be able to weld up a manual version with a threaded rod and a bolt, using a nut and a pass-through ratchet wrench
to apply the needed torque, though that could be mighty slow.
I use a 24" cropper for my tests as any larger gets very cumbersome, heavy, and not at all concealable. Though, since they
have hollow handles, you can always insert steel rods inside that can be pulled out to give you extra leverage, but then you
risk overloading the fulcrum joint and breaking your tool.
megalomania July 9th, 2005, 11:22 PM

I was talking to a guy the same day I wrote my last post on the 7th (later that day). He said he used a large bolt cutter
(presumably 36" or larger) and he said the thing would not even grab the lock because it was just too big (the bolt cutters, not
the lock). He had a full 180 degrees to work with.
I didn't mention hydraulic cutters earlier because they are not exactly portable (they require air compressor to work). They can
be had for a few hundred bucks (yesterday there was one on Ebay for $300 that included a video of it cutting 3/8" rebar).
megalomania July 9th, 2005, 11:22 PM

I was talking to a guy the same day I wrote my last post on the 7th (later that day). He said he used a large bolt cutter
(presumably 36" or larger) and he said the thing would not even grab the lock because it was just too big (the bolt cutters, not
the lock). He had a full 180 degrees to work with.
I didn't mention hydraulic cutters earlier because they are not exactly portable (they require air compressor to work). They can
be had for a few hundred bucks (yesterday there was one on Ebay for $300 that included a video of it cutting 3/8" rebar).
CommonScientist July 15th, 2005, 07:34 PM

Suppose you could make a cone shaped charge with the base diameter of 1-1.5" out of plastique. You could put it on the
main case of really large locks, railroad locks as well, and detonate it. Sound is the only problem, but might be concealed if
you can fit a cardboard box lined with high density foam and put over the lock, that is if space is availiable.
Dont know if it would work, something to chew on I guess.
CommonScientist July 15th, 2005, 07:34 PM

Suppose you could make a cone shaped charge with the base diameter of 1-1.5" out of plastique. You could put it on the
main case of really large locks, railroad locks as well, and detonate it. Sound is the only problem, but might be concealed if
you can fit a cardboard box lined with high density foam and put over the lock, that is if space is availiable.
Dont know if it would work, something to chew on I guess.
Kamisama July 16th, 2005, 02:00 AM

NBK, you said you spent a lot of money. Any chance you would have tried to defeat a U..S. Military lock by any chance? I've
read that they are actually quite the thing to defeat since they sometimes rust up and heating them up and so forth is time
consuming.
I think using a drill instead of an explosive would be the easiest way to defeat a lock. But that destroys it unless you have the
correct way of repairing/hiding it plus solder materials.
I think explosive would work to a point for almost anylock. However it's very obvious that you've destroyed the lock and
whatever it has been attached to. There are however various ways you can conceal the noise, just as with a gun firing off.
Using corrosive acid may work sometimes. I haven't had a chance to mess with Military locks since I can't get ahold of any. I
don't have the money either.
Kamisama July 16th, 2005, 02:00 AM

NBK, you said you spent a lot of money. Any chance you would have tried to defeat a U..S. Military lock by any chance? I've
read that they are actually quite the thing to defeat since they sometimes rust up and heating them up and so forth is time
consuming.
I think using a drill instead of an explosive would be the easiest way to defeat a lock. But that destroys it unless you have the
correct way of repairing/hiding it plus solder materials.
I think explosive would work to a point for almost anylock. However it's very obvious that you've destroyed the lock and
whatever it has been attached to. There are however various ways you can conceal the noise, just as with a gun firing off.
Using corrosive acid may work sometimes. I haven't had a chance to mess with Military locks since I can't get ahold of any. I
don't have the money either.
nbk2000 July 23rd, 2005, 01:11 PM

I've wanted to get my hands on some of the locks the military uses, but they're not available publicly, or without big bucks to
buy from collectors.
Drills are useful, but they can't always be used because of the way the lock is mounted, or its design specifically protects
against such an attack.
Explosives can defeat anything, but that's irrelevant to this discussion, as the whole purpose is to defeat the locks in as covert
a manner as possible, or with as little drama as possible.
Explosives are neither covert, nor drama-free.
nbk2000 July 23rd, 2005, 01:11 PM

I've wanted to get my hands on some of the locks the military uses, but they're not available publicly, or without big bucks to
buy from collectors.
Drills are useful, but they can't always be used because of the way the lock is mounted, or its design specifically protects
against such an attack.
Explosives can defeat anything, but that's irrelevant to this discussion, as the whole purpose is to defeat the locks in as covert
a manner as possible, or with as little drama as possible.
Explosives are neither covert, nor drama-free.
kld1648temp July 27th, 2005, 09:06 PM

I'm sure you're well aware of the many uses of fireman entry equipment. Hooligan bars in particular appear to be a blessing
for defeating most padlocks (Overtly). There are collapsible hooligan bars, for covertness. Silent, fast, simple.
When removing a lock, it is a good idea to have another one to replace it, purely for aesthetic value; nothing appears out of
the ordinary (I'd notice a missing lock to a storage locker). Sure, the owner/janitor/whoever will not be able to open it with
their key, but chances are they wo n t automatically assu me S o m e o n e r o b bed us and chan ged the lock!! Stumped, probably.
But the manh unt wouldn t start until yo ur tracks were long since cove red.
Food for thought.

I'm sure you're well aware of the many uses of fireman entry equipment. Hooligan bars in particular appear to be a blessing
for defeating most padlocks (Overtly). There are collapsible hooligan bars, for covertness. Silent, fast, simple.
When removing a lock, it is a good idea to have another one to replace it, purely for aesthetic value; nothing appears out of
the ordinary (I'd notice a missing lock to a storage locker). Sure, the owner/janitor/whoever will not be able to open it with
their key, but chances are they wo n t automatically assu me S o m e o n e r o b bed us and chan ged the lock!! Stumped, probably.
But the manh unt wouldn t start until yo ur tracks were long since cove red.
Food for thought.
nbk2000 October 10th, 2006, 01:58 AM

Lock pick set concealed in a fake VISA credit card. :)
http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/lockpicks/credit_card_pick.htm

Master lock combination type locks may also be defeated by removing the round back plate with a screwdriver or such. After
the p late is rem oved, you will see a hole about 5/16 in dia., that will expose the tumblers. Line the tumblers up, usually RT,
LT and RT.
Most U.S. vending machines employ bill validators made by Mars electronics internataiol (MEI), Coin Co or JCM. While the
electronics are state of the art, the housings and bezels are made of plastic and held in place by four 10-32 machine screws,
and are easily defeated with a 3lb hammer.
Take your hammer and hit the face of the bill unit breaking off the four ears of the faceplate, the bill unit will fall inside the
machine and will be suspended by the power and interface wires, reach in the machine and remove the bill box from the bill
unit.
Soda machines have a 200-note capacity, snacks 400 or 500.
I'd like to post some bill unit pictures.
(Go ahead, no one is stopping you. :) Rapidshare or Flickr are your friends. NBK)

Here's a link to a MEI bill unit. Thanks
http://rapidshare.de/files/36962347/MEI_AE26XX_US_Bill_UNIT.ppt.html
lock March 11th, 2007, 11:08 PM

Wow, nice list nbk2000! :)
One thing I didn't see mentioned is that almost all padlocks (with the exception being some very high end military
padlocks...) can be defeated with liquid nitrogen. Simply submerge the lock in the Liquid Nitrogen, leave for 30 mins or so,
and then smash with a hammer. The lock will simply shatter.
I've never had the oppurtunity to try this, but hope to someday.
And for anyone thinking about thermite, drop it, I recently saw pics of a thermite attack on a padlock, and the thermite simply
stuck to outside of the lock :eek:
However, I don't know how good the thermite was, it could have been some lowquality crap, but even if it had burnt through
the padlock it would likely just melt the lock shut.:D
209 March 13th, 2007, 06:02 PM

Thermite is not a very conventional method of cracking locks, its can be difficult to ignite, dangerous fire hazard and
otherwise, real messy. cracking locks with a drill is difficult, loud and may not even work.
Learn to pick locks, its not real difficult once you learn about the terminology of it. The best homebrew picks are definatly NOT
hacksaw blades, even tempered they are still a peice of crap (thats my opinion) I have a coffee can full of picks that are
busted, bent, broken or I just dont like them.
The BEST picks are made from feeler gauges (used for testing spark gaps of spark plugs) they are spring stainless steel and
will not bend, snap or warp with time. My feeler gauges came like a pocket knife, all the gauges closed into the handle. I just
left them like that, and cut off the thin gauges that were to small to make into picks, now I have a folding pickset that I carry
everywere with me.
To cut a pick eather use a dremel "rotary tool" or an angle grinder. Just google 'lock pick set' and choose a picture of your
favourite set and duplicate it. Trust me, its much cheeper to make your own than buy. You will also need a tension wrench,
only Sam Fisher can pick a lock without it, make it of the feeler gauge material as well.
When I first popped a Schlage I got so excited because suddenly, nothing was out of my reach, including those nice chems in
the science prep room! :D
nbk2000 March 13th, 2007, 06:51 PM

Yes, it is good for a lot of the cheaper locks, but when you start attacking high-end locks, your solutions break down to either
brute-force or highly-technical.
For instance, the attached lock is an S&G Medeco Padlock (http://www.sglocks.com/prod_padlocks_833.php), used for locking
ammuntion bunkers by the US military.
Pick it. :p
amachinist March 13th, 2007, 11:33 PM

Other methods of bypassing locks depending upon how they are secured. If it is by chain, skip the lock and cut the chain,
usually the chain is easier to cut. A lock attached to an exposed hasp, cut the hasp. Sometimes just prying the hasp plate off
the door is easiest.
On normal padlocks, commonly used on company lockers, I have seen two large drift punches placed in the opening and
struck with a hammer to open the lock, the lock can be closed back about half the time.
In locksmith catalogs there are sets of small curved spring tools that are worked in around the top on the inside of the
shackle, pressed down into the holes. They press the balls back into the base and the lock is opened.
209 March 14th, 2007, 01:02 AM

My My, I am stumped there. That looks slightly challenging :rolleyes: . I guess you would eather have to find a way around it
or a cutting torch.
WMD March 15th, 2007, 04:06 PM

Depending on the design of the hasp, you might be able to place a hydraulic jack under it, together with a suitable extension
piece and apply a lot of brute force. As for more clandestine means, sometimes keys for high security locks are protected by
low security locks, for instance when the key owner goes to the gym and uses a locker. Then the keys can be copied in a
matter of minutes using quick setting silicone. Of course this is only useful for high value targets.

At school, I used a screwdriver to carefully remove the securing screws on a lot of padlock hasps to gain entry. The screws
could easily be replaced, and no-one was any the wiser.
Another trick I saw, which I then improved on, was the use of a fire extinguisher to smash the padlock off. The improvement
was to first hold the padlock with a set of pipe grips, so that the target area was a lot bigger, and then hit it with the fire
extinguisher/lump hammer. Probably worked 80% of the time in one or two swings, and the padlock often worked visually
afterwards. The owner would often notice something wrong, but the lock itself wasn't obviously fucked up.
chembio March 29th, 2007, 07:50 AM

An idea I've been toying with:
Inject some aqua regia into the keyhole of the lock. If enough is injected, the pins should all be corroded away. The, pump in
lots of water to clean the lock. Use an allen key to turn, and it should open. :D
*Itching to try but lacks HNO3* :mad:
chemdude1999 March 29th, 2007, 06:59 PM

chembio, that is a decent idea. But you need a set of circumstances for it to work. First, the lock must not be used much. Acid
(even aqua regia) takes time to work solid metal down. Second, the lock must be located in a lightly travelled area. The
fumes and stains on the door would alert anyone.
I think this idea would work well on utility closets, access doors to electrical items, or on seasonally-used areas.
Give it a shot on a old lock you have, to gauge the time needed along with the amount of acid required. Some alloys are
notoriously tough.
nbk2000 March 29th, 2007, 09:35 PM

Most locks are not liquid-tight, so any acid you put in will run out of any hole, either pre-existing or made by the acid.
Jacks Complete April 3rd, 2007, 07:16 PM

That idea has merit, but you would need a lot of acid to have much effect. More likely it would cause rust and corrosion, and
the lock would jam up. That might be useful, depending, of course.
Charles Owlen Picket May 22nd, 2007, 12:28 PM

There is a maul used for very hard wood made by a company in Canada that is interesting. It is quite finely tapered and it's
point is just that; a point (not a wedge, tapering from .15 cm to 4.5 cm @ 1 kg weight) configured to most every opening of 1
cm in diameter. This is a very well made chuck of steel that could easily force open even Master 950's, etc with a sever blow
from a heavy hammer as it could well fit within a shackle.
There is also a breaker bar that is 5' long made of hex steel 1.25" think which may also provide leverage for heavy by-pass
techniques. But the biggest issue I see is the bracing of the lock to be undone. It would either flop around or would bang
against what holds it with a great deal of noise and fuss.
I have wondered if there was a truly powerful four inch hand grinder that is battery powered....such a tool could be fitted with a
cut-off blade (I have seen 4" cut-off blades on plug-in types). That and a portable 18-24 volt drill would get most folks where
they need to go, I would imagine.
209 May 22nd, 2007, 08:20 PM

A grinder with a cutting wheel (provided there is an avalible power source) may be the ideal tool for penetrating high security
locks. Though when you are using an angle grinder it sounds like a moment stolen from hell, it could work. My grinder (B&D 4/
1/2) may be one of the best investments I have ever made. I find it endlessly useful for cleaning up welds, cutting lock picks
or slicing metal were a clean cut is required. The speed of cutting metal with an angle grinder is staggering, though its so
damn loud.
Has anyone made, or have a set of auto jigglers? I Youtubed it and I may have to make me a set, it appears that anone with
half a brain could make and use one. They look like they are very effective, and small too. Suddenly, you arn't running for the
bus anymore! :)
nbk2000 May 23rd, 2007, 01:12 AM

$150, including case and batteries:
http://www.toolking.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=7998
$80, tool only (assuming you already have batteries):

http://www.toolking.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=12737
I got mine for $40 several years ago. :p
Used it in my demonstration video of using an inert atmosphere for spark-free cutting (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/
showthread.php?t=4832).
Charles Owlen Picket May 23rd, 2007, 11:33 AM

That's the ticket! (DeWalt Cordless Cut-Off Tool / Grinder 18V XPR 4-1/2"....found a sale too!).... By the way: I'm up for the
DVD when you do sell it.
@209
From my experience auto gigglers are made of thin steel which bends quite easily. This is extremely unfortunate in that often
automotive locks really need the leverage. It's no problem to scan the existing gigglers & make a template.
The trick would be making them of a material that would resist enough to turn the lock. Obviously, this is only my experience
and there are less resistive locks on many newer vehicles. There is a "bump key" concept to using them in that after giggling
to set the wafers to the shear line you need to turn THEN! That type of light, fast hand movement invites twisting at the bow. I
got them to work on a Toyota truck ('89") with little wear in the lock (tight) and a GMC Jimmy with a very sloppy key-way
(loose as a goose).
I once experimented with making a "Bending Jig" for auto entry tools. It came out GREAT! I used a self designed templet of
all the wire auto tools that two large companies sell (Pro-Lock & Sully). Then I found a source for music wire of a very high
grade. The jig was made with a block of quality hardwood (Purple Heart) and dowels of Rock Maple. It was small and you could
make any tool in the inventory fast! So that once equipped with an up-to-date entry reference and the jig, wire, & a few
wedges, you could get into anything on the road. It's really the only way to get a full collection of wire entry tools without
spending a stupid amount of $. The profit level on those wire tools is ridiculous!
Jacks Complete May 23rd, 2007, 04:52 PM

I was looking at the back of a van today, and it had a crappy regular brass padlock on it, and one of the serious heavy duty
lock hasps. It occurred to me that the hasp, being one of the ones with the big steel quarter dome over the top, would actually
make it far easier to break the padlock off, by inserting a bar then levering down on the body of it, using the hasp itself as a
fulcrum.
Tinton June 11th, 2007, 10:26 PM

One technique that I have yet to test, but sounds plausible, is a blow torch.
Not the grunt cutting method, but a quieter cheaper method.
The 1500s(?), master combo locks, use plastic disks on the inside. Once both locks are aligned, and the shackle is pulled, a
metal rods descends into a deep groove on the plastic disks; allowing the lock to open.
If you could heat the lock just enough to melt, or deform the plastic pieces, and then pulled the shackle... The bar would just
dig into the semi-molten plastic, and open.
Better yet, there would be no entry marks, as long as you wipe off the soot.
++++++++++
Every 1500 lock I've torn apart had metal discs. NBK
WMD June 14th, 2007, 11:20 AM

If there really are plastic disks inside you don't need a blowtorch. I once had a carabiner style padlock from Masterlock and
wanted to try if I could feel the gates when I apply some pressure to the shackle. Well, mild pressure was sufficient to deform
the disk so much that the lock opened without the correct combination. I think other locks using plastic disks would be just as
easy to force open.
GNAB June 15th, 2007, 12:26 AM

For building entry ways an old (circa 1960-1975) bumper jack is extremely effective. Still available at most salvage yards.
Place horizontally between door jambs at vertical mid point and ratchet twice. Door should swing open freely even with dead
bolts. Depending on bumper attachment you may need a block of wood to prevent maring but everything will return to normal
upon removal of the jack. This will also work on metal door frames. Very, very "low tech" and very effective.
Regards

GNAB, you mean as a door spreader? Good idea, but I don't think that will work on many doors on brick buildings, since you
are going to need to push the frame about an inch wider, and there isn't an inch to go.
On the police entry things they do this frame spreading before pushing the door with a ram. I saw a picture somewhere of a
steel hook bolt that was ripped open by one of these things, it was stretched a long way!
Charles Owlen Picket June 21st, 2007, 12:09 PM

Actually what GNAB was talking about MAY have been the real thing (a true bumper jack). There is a hydraulic device that is
similar to a automobile jack but it's MADE for door spreading. It's made somewhat long in comparison to the floor model and
has angled braces on each end. VERY heavy steel construction. the one I saw was rated @ 20 tons and it was a small one.
These things WILL push a door frame wide enough to open the dead-bolt, etc.
The company that sells them I think was Falle-Safe. They are about $200+ USD and weigh less than one would think. I saw a
demo and I really think that no frame could stand up to it. The fact that it's a hydraulic device and not mechanical like a
bumper jack makes it able to handle brick or steel very easily. The shit just bends or crushes outright!
nbk2000 June 22nd, 2007, 03:19 AM

The Hydra-Force spreader, is the tool you're referring to.
Charles Owlen Picket June 22nd, 2007, 11:07 AM

YOU'RE RIGHT ON THE MONEY! And it's a babe! If I had the money for such a toy I would most likely buy it. I believe they
come in various sizes, are not too clumsy to carry and are essentially a floor-jack so that they are tough beyond necessity.
GMike63 June 22nd, 2007, 07:28 PM

A Hi-Lift Jack with the JackMate aftermarket attachment will bust up or open a lot of things, from damaged automobiles to
house doors. Although it doesnt have the strength to spread a door properly installed in a masonry opening, there may be a
solution without resorting to the hydraulic jacks. If you could get a grip around the outside of the door frame verticals, you
could use the jack to squeeze the frame inwards on itself and hopefully break everything loose from the walls. The 90 minute
rated steel door frames that extend out from the wall would probably be easy to grab. A wood framed door recessed into a
block opening would be harder to grab- but probably easier to destroy once you get a grip. Need somebody to start fabricating
and selling an accessory for this now.

Reading the responses here, I think that we are getting a bit far from the topic. Yes, you probably can buy a $1000 system
that will push hard enough to shift the door frame on a masonary building, but that's not a wise thing to do. In the UK, if you
did that shit on most houses, you would need all 20 tonnes of force, since bricks and mortar are not compressible. Sure, you
might manage to pop a few bricks loose, but that wouldn't open the door. And on a terraced street, 20 tonnes isn't going to do
anything, as there is way more than 20 tonnes of bricks in a row.
Now, 20 tonnes onto the door itself, that would probably open most of them. They would bend or splinter.
However, as ever, the middle way is best. Spread the frame by 5mm, or 20 if you can. (Odds are that unless you pick your
target well, you won't get 20mm without at the least, a window exploding from the pressure. Which means the use of a ram
was silly, and you could have bricked a window...)
Then you get another ram, and push on the door, which then bends a little. Say 10mm. Since a lock bolt is 14mm long, this
pops the door open.
No need to destroy everything and get caught, eh?
Not that this would work on modern multipoint doors, not without a hell of a lot of noise.
nbk2000 June 25th, 2007, 07:04 PM

When the door frame can't be spread apart, the spreader can still be used as a support for using an airbag.
The spreader is emplaced in line with the main lock, and then a small high-pressure airbag is placed between the door and
the spreader, and inflated.
The forces the door to bow inwards, releasing the door bolt from the frame.
This doesn't work for multipoint door frames, nor for a particular type of door lock, but for the majority of doors it does.
-=HeX=- December 14th, 2007, 06:49 PM

Sorry for bringing up such an old thread NBK, but you were asking for donations of locks for your research. If you email me or
otherwise contact me (private message) I can arrange to send you a Medico or Chubb lock (not sure of what brand it is), as
well as a Tri-Circle padlock.
Also, strangely enough, I found an unusual weakness in a Medico desk lock that I recently was 'playing' with, I pressed in all
the pins simultaenously with a hairpin and, as I pulled it out, the locks cylinder with all the pins came out, this was a brand
new Medico lock! what surprised me was the fact that it worked on my friends Medico desklock as well! And these are top
quality...
Also, a question, is 'rapping' where you tap the back of the lock with a rubber mallet or shoe and then pull on it? As well,
somebody said 'thermite' does not work on padlocks, well, it does, but attracts WAY too much attention. Also, go here for a
good video and instructions for a toothbrush lockpick http://www.inventgeek.com/Projects/lockpick/page4.aspx it is very
effective.
oskarchem December 15th, 2007, 05:17 PM

Well, if the post is digged up, since the use of Aqua Regia has been put up, I think that it would melt away pretty much
everything inside the lock, if it can dissolve Gold in like 1minute, I don't think some steel would be a problem...
When I go to the US, I usually attack the newspaper machines, if you bang on it hard enough some cash will fall out, but not
wery much like 3$ so I usually pick the locks on the side...
Charles Owlen Picket April 1st, 2008, 03:12 PM

I didn't want this thread to die since it may be one of the better in terms of time and energy from a variety of people.
When examining locks that simply are too difficult to pick, there is an alternative beyond brute force leverage: weld-cutting.
Now oxy/acetylene is available in common back-pack sized units and if you have any welding background at all you know
where to find cutting torches that use micro fine tips. I have an old "Nickels" millimeter cutter that HAS provided cuts through
.50" hardened steel with such speed as to be infamous! The small tanks at Home Depot will fit in an ALICE pack. Those alone
will give you 20 minitues at least at 5\10 lbs O\A gas.
I also had one of the back-pack Miller TIG/Stick units that run off 110 ACV:
http://www.millerwelds.com/products/tig/maxstar_150_stl/
If AC is available, it will provide shear capability for protracted work (safes, etc) especially if you have a moderate welding
background & know some of the labour saving mechanisms....
Some of the things some of the old timers can do is amazing due to extended experimentation. Most people know that even
welding tips on an O\A torch can cut enough to get into most any plate steel @ 3/8" or drop a shackle in less than 30 seconds.
monkeyboy April 4th, 2008, 06:02 AM

Reading the responses here, I think that we are getting a bit far from the topic. Yes, you probably can buy a $1000 system
that will push hard enough to shift the door frame on a masonry building, but that's not a wise thing to do. In the UK, if you
did that shit on most houses, you would need all 20 tonnes of force, since bricks and mortar are not compressible. Sure, you
might manage to pop a few bricks loose, but that wouldn't open the door. And on a terraced street, 20 tonnes isn't going to do
anything, as there is way more than 20 tonnes of bricks in a row.
Maybe things are built a bit different in Europe. But around here, the rough opening is framed in (whether wood framed or
masonry) with 2X lumber. Then the door jamb, which is 1/2"-1" smaller is stuck in the hole. 4-6 wedges (1" wide/tapered to 1/
4" thick & 8" long) are stuck around the frame & (finish) nails are driven through them to hold it all together. This is so that as
temperature & humidity (+ Minor foundation settling) change, all the parts can expand/contract without the door binding. The
door itself has between 1/8" - 3/8" per side clearance, also. When using a hydraulic door spreader, the slack in these two
things is what is compressed. Real easy to get the 1" you need.
As for the $1000 price tag, that's what the government pays for a special purpose one. The generic one, used for moving all
kinds of stuff around, is known as a Porta-Power. They can be had for as little as $70 on sale (harbor freight) or a couple
hundred for an American made version.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44899
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44900
I've had one for ages that I picked up at a pawn shop for $75 (Porter-Cable).
It works like a charm to open doors. If you just use the rubber pucks it comes with though, it will mar the jamb. I suggest a
piece of 1X4 stock at each end.
I haven't used it for that in awhile, as I'm actually getting pretty good with my picks.
I did just use it for holding up a porch roof while I replaced the columns. Again, works like a charm.
"He has lock picks" You say? Yep, got them with the Foley-Belsaw course. Also a "locksmith trainee wallet card, that has gotten
me out of quite a bit of hassle related to carrying/using them. I highly recommend it, even if you aren't going to be a
"professional locksmith." The knowledge is priceless. If you get on their mailing list, They'll send you out a flyer with a price of
around a $1000. Ignore it. a few weeks later, they'll send out an offer of around $800. Finally around $650. Plus they'll finance
it to the tune of $30 a month. Takes longer to do the course that way, 'cause they'll only send out 1 lesson a month, but heck
you can't beat the price.
The Key machine that comes with it is usable, just barely. I recently picked up a much better one & a bunch of blanks from
Craigslist for $100. I've bent a complete set of car door opening tools, by looking through the catalogs. My next project will be
building a bigger set of picks & tension wrenches from the blueprints I've found in various places on the net.
I'm also working on trying to make my own "Mule Tool" any of you guys heard of it?
Oh yeah! Just remembered. A while back a buddy asked if he could borrow my Foley Belsaw books. No way! I looked around
on the net & found a PDF of the whole thing. It was a set of joined scans. So I OCRed & optimized it. Thought somebody here
might find it useful:
http://rapidshare.com/files/104760215/Tomato_Soup_recipes.rar
The PW is roguesci.org, of course.
Charles Owlen Picket April 4th, 2008, 10:35 AM

Please describe "mule tool". Good work with the scans, by the way. However the Foley material is so dated (skeleton and flag
keys?) that in today's working locksmith operand much of it is not applicable. A smart student could extrapolate from the
examples shown but many would not. One of the best is commonly found at some local Community Colleges (actually high
schools) entitled (IIRC) "Understanding Relational Commercial Security" which is a locksmith course that has an emphasis on
Alarm installation as well as solid locksmithing. The course is a full year and the syllabus is tough to come by as it has the
school's name all over it and the copier would divulge his identity pretty quickly.
monkeyboy April 4th, 2008, 04:38 PM

Please describe "mule tool".
It's in one of the locksmith videos floating around the net. It's a rod that you insert under the door, then twist to get it to
stand up. Then it hooks the knob/latch with a piece of non-slip fabric. You pull a string & it opens the door. Whiz bang. If I
can remember which video it's in, I'll extract & post it
However the Foley material is so dated (skeleton and flag keys?) that in today's working locksmith operand much of it is not
applicable. A smart student could extrapolate from the examples shown but many would not.
There are parts of a couple chapters that begin with warded locks (skeleton and flag keys) as an introduction to the technology
of locks. They are actually still pretty big sellers in padlocks filing cabinets & desks. People are stupid, I guess. The bulk of
the information concerns pin tumbler locks, however. That would be the vast majority of locks used & sold in the US. There are
also chapters on wafer/side bar locks (still used on a lot of cars) & car opening tools. There is information on terminology &
reading locksmithing catalogs, Impressioning locks, Master keying, Ace locks, Double bitted cam locks, Combination locks,
code cutting & Picking. All fairly well thought out & presented in a decent order. Definitely mostly still applicable. Doesn't cover
the newer high security locks, especially the cool stuff out of Europe. But it does provide a very solid foundation of knowledge,
so that you can understand what's going on when you do run across information on those rarely encountered locks.
For some one with little to no knowledge of locks, I highly recommend it. If you can't afford the course, download the book.
Read it all the way through, like a novel. Try to come up with the locks & tools they talk about, so you can follow along with the
procedures. Persevere. You will definitely learn about locks.
Once you have that foundation, if you want the information about the more interesting locks, look for & download the LSS+
very interesting. Very technical, but very interesting.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > How to open mechanical (high-security) locks with the "bump key" method
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View Full Version : How to open mechanical (high-security) locks with the "bump key" method
nummi July 23rd, 2005, 10:56 PM

http://deviating.net/lockpicking/images/06.05-bump_keying_slow.gif
There are funny posts on how to open/blast locks with picks/AP on the forum, but I couldn't find any mention of a very smart method that's well-known in some European countries but practically unknown on other
continents. It's called "bump key" method (aka "power key" method). I saw a demonstration of this method on TV last year, a few weeks later you could buy the first "bump key" sets via the internet :D
pros: works quiet, fast, without effort, no skills required... even opens lots of high-security locks (e.g. 15-pin locks with 5 pins at 3 sides or dimple locks)
cons: requires an appropriate bump key
A bump key (http://www.mb7.net/rap.jpg) is a key in which all the cuts are at maximum depth (position 9), that's why any used key or a key blank for a given lock can be converted into a bump key (e.g. with a
file or a dremel).
Or you can buy bump keys via the internet: http://www.multipick-service.com/en/tools/36100_en.htm
With a right bump key set that covers all locks used in your area (e.g. LIPS, LITTO, NEMEF etc. for the Netherlands or ABUS, BKS, DOM, ZEISS-IKON for Germany) you can open more than 90% of the doors in
your area... without any traces... within just a few seconds. Cool, eh? :D
All you have to do is... take an appropriate bump key, insert the key and using the handle of a screwdriver gently tap the back of the bump key. This forces the upper pins to jump above the shear line allowing you
to turn the bump key and open or close the lock/door.
Here's a slide-show that explains the "bumping" method very well: http://deviating.net/lockpicking/06.01-bump_keying.html
And here you can download two very interesting files about "bump keys". If you are interested in opening locks the download is a MUST!
http://www.toool.nl/bumping.pdf 0.5 MB PDF

"... how to open MUL-T-Lock (pin-in-pin, interactive, 7x7), Assa (600 Twin), DOM (ix, dimple with ball), LIPS (dimple), Evva TSC, ISEO (dimple & standard) and other expensive mechanical locks..."
http://www.toool.nl/bumpkey-alert.wmv 60 MB, 7 minutes TV video including English subtitles
----------------
Besides the bump key stuff here are two funny videos from the same site:
http://www.toool.nl/kensington623.wmv 7.6 MB, video on how to open a Kensington laptop lock with a toilet roll
http://www.toool.nl/competitie.wmv 19 MB, raking a lock in 0.5 seconds and picking a Medeco Biaxial in 2 minutes.
-----------------
Since I'm a newbie, I cannot see my post in a formatted form until it's been released by an admin.
If a posted link doesn't work well... shit happens :)
nummi July 23rd, 2005, 10:56 PM

http://deviating.net/lockpicking/images/06.05-bump_keying_slow.gif
There are funny posts on how to open/blast locks with picks/AP on the forum, but I couldn't find any mention of a very smart method that's well-known in some European countries but practically unknown on other
continents. It's called "bump key" method (aka "power key" method). I saw a demonstration of this method on TV last year, a few weeks later you could buy the first "bump key" sets via the internet :D
pros: works quiet, fast, without effort, no skills required... even opens lots of high-security locks (e.g. 15-pin locks with 5 pins at 3 sides or dimple locks)
cons: requires an appropriate bump key
A bump key (http://www.mb7.net/rap.jpg) is a key in which all the cuts are at maximum depth (position 9), that's why any used key or a key blank for a given lock can be converted into a bump key (e.g. with a
file or a dremel).
Or you can buy bump keys via the internet: http://www.multipick-service.com/en/tools/36100_en.htm
With a right bump key set that covers all locks used in your area (e.g. LIPS, LITTO, NEMEF etc. for the Netherlands or ABUS, BKS, DOM, ZEISS-IKON for Germany) you can open more than 90% of the doors in
your area... without any traces... within just a few seconds. Cool, eh? :D
All you have to do is... take an appropriate bump key, insert the key and using the handle of a screwdriver gently tap the back of the bump key. This forces the upper pins to jump above the shear line allowing you
to turn the bump key and open or close the lock/door.
Here's a slide-show that explains the "bumping" method very well: http://deviating.net/lockpicking/06.01-bump_keying.html
And here you can download two very interesting files about "bump keys". If you are interested in opening locks the download is a MUST!
http://www.toool.nl/bumping.pdf 0.5 MB PDF

"... how to open MUL-T-Lock (pin-in-pin, interactive, 7x7), Assa (600 Twin), DOM (ix, dimple with ball), LIPS (dimple), Evva TSC, ISEO (dimple & standard) and other expensive mechanical locks..."
http://www.toool.nl/bumpkey-alert.wmv 60 MB, 7 minutes TV video including English subtitles
----------------
Besides the bump key stuff here are two funny videos from the same site:
http://www.toool.nl/kensington623.wmv 7.6 MB, video on how to open a Kensington laptop lock with a toilet roll
http://www.toool.nl/competitie.wmv 19 MB, raking a lock in 0.5 seconds and picking a Medeco Biaxial in 2 minutes.
-----------------
Since I'm a newbie, I cannot see my post in a formatted form until it's been released by an admin.
If a posted link doesn't work well... shit happens :)
nummi July 28th, 2005, 11:55 AM

The link to the slide show has been changed. It's now:
http://deviating.net/lockpicking/08.01-bump_keying.html
nummi July 28th, 2005, 11:55 AM

The link to the slide show has been changed. It's now:
http://deviating.net/lockpicking/08.01-bump_keying.html

I think I uploaded (I scanned, at any rate) "How to Open Locks W/ Improvised Tools" by Hans Conkel.
It covers bumpkeys, along with MANY alternate, non-destructive methods to bypass locks. There are about three pages on bumpkeys, in particular.
If it isn't on the FTP, let me know and I'll post it somewhere for someone else to upload (the place I steal wireless internet has port 990 blocked, or I'd check myself).
I think I uploaded (I scanned, at any rate) "How to Open Locks W/ Improvised Tools" by Hans Conkel.
It covers bumpkeys, along with MANY alternate, non-destructive methods to bypass locks. There are about three pages on bumpkeys, in particular.
If it isn't on the FTP, let me know and I'll post it somewhere for someone else to upload (the place I steal wireless internet has port 990 blocked, or I'd check myself).
nbk2000 January 30th, 2006, 05:18 PM

From Locks, Safes, and Security 2nd ed., Vol. 1, pg 503
1.5.2.6 Marks from 999 Rapping

Rapping of a lock using a "999" style key is common in some countries, notably Denmark. The procedure involves the insertion of a specially cut key described in more detail in Chapter 29, followed by the
application of rapping or repeated shocks to the end of the key using a mallet, plastic screwdriver, or similar instrument. The rapping motion is transmitted to all tumblers (at a 45-90 angle to the bottom pins)
simultaneously. In theory, much like the pick gun, the forward motion of the key will momentarily cause the driver tumblers to be bumped upward above shear line. With the proper timing, a lock can be
successfully rapped open in a couple of attempts.
The design of a 999 key would preclude its normal use. It would rarely if ever be encountered except in suspicious circumstances. Possession of such a key would warrant further inquiry. A 999 key will have all cuts
at maximum depth and will often contain long ramps between cuts. These ramps will serve to catch each lower pin as rapping is applied.
The procedure will leave evidence in two areas: on the sides of all tumblers and on the plug. There will be marking where the shoulder strikes the face of the plug because the key is often hit too hard. If there is a
visible indentation, the technique should be suspected. However, such could also represent a lock with heavy use. The pins should be closely examined; they will appear as if struck with a brass chisel. A radial
mark will be present because the angle of the key is not the same as on the pin. Scratches on the sides and bottoms of the pins can show that a 999 rapping technique was applied, or that there was too steep a
ramp angle on a key that was forced into the lock.
It's nice that there are people looking around the net for interesting things. However, newbies should always do a search before creating a new topic, as this has already been mentioned and some of the same links
provided (by me), in other topics.
We also actively discourage posting animated GIFs and such, simply because they tend to be rather distracting. A link would have sufficed.
Oh well...
Anyways, it's an interesting technique and has utility when you know the target locks are vulnerable to it. If you have the blanks, or the ability to make them, then making a 999 key is doable by hand if you're
patient. Don't expect a locksmith to make 'em for you. :o
Being found in possession of 999 keys is prima facia evidence of intent to commit a burglary, or possession of a burglary tool, either of which gets you jacked up, so hide them.
Next is the fact that the technique can just as easily fail as succeed. It has as much to do with the condition of the lock as with the skill of the operator. Some locks are impossible to pick or rap, no matter how
many others of the same model you've opened using the same technique, simply because of the variances created by manufacturing tolerances and user ab/use.
And, yes, it does take skill and practice, same as anything in life. It may not require as much skill as picking the lock, but it still takes practice to know when to apply the turning torque, otherwise you bind up the
pins in the cylinder and the lock stays locked.
According to RTPB "Plan for Failure", you'd be best served by bringing along another means of bypass if the 999 rap doesn't work.
There are people selling modified locks that will 'Fail Secure' when attacked by a picking or rapping attempt. There's a link on the Toool.nl site.
As an experiment after reading about that, on one of my test locks, I modified it so that it would lock the plug in place if it was picked open in the wrong direction (common mistake/deliberate technique), while
remaining locked, requiring it to be opened from the inside, removed from the door, and replaced, as the spring-loaded pin, once fired, permanently locks the plug in place.
One should always modify locks securing their possessions in such a way as to foil sneak thieves and, more importantly, sneaky pigs.
The principle behind RTPB 51:
"Police operate by knowing the pattern of criminal behavior. If you don't fit the pattern, you are that much harder to catch."
works in the reverse:
"Criminals operate by knowing the pattern of victim behavior. If you don't fit the pattern, you are that much harder to rob."
Locks that lock shut, and make further manipulation impossible, are not what lock pickers are expecting, hence they'll be stymied/flummoxed/pole-axed by it. :p This was used in the old days in such estimable
locks as the Bramah Detector Lever Lock, but the concept has faded into obscurity.
At the very least it now requires them to either overtly break-in, making it obvious, or retreat in defeat, while your tamper-evident lock lets you know about the attempt. :D
Locks that use sidebars, such as Medeco, are immune to rapping, since the pins must not only be lifted to the shear line, but also rotated to the proper position before the lock will open, a condition that will not
occur from rapping.
PYRO500 February 10th, 2006, 01:41 PM

As a locksmith in the usa, I have to say that I have never ever needed bump keys, as for making them.... you have to figure out what lock you are going to use them on, and find out the depths for that lock.... for
example on a standard kwikset lock there are 7 standard depths, tell a locksmith you have to get a key that has the key depts cut at 7,7,7,7,7 and they will look at you funny, and ask if your key is flat with little
peaks, tell them yes, and they can easily punch one out with a machine most decent shops have. If you want to avoid most suspicion, you can order a "depth and spacing" key set, they contain a set of keys for a
particular lock that have cuts of all depths, for example you'd get a key with the cuts 11111 and 22222 and so on, you could use the last one in the series as a bump key.
As far as house locks work, dont bother look for a place that has kwikset key in knob locksets, if they have a deadbolt, 90% of the time they arent used when the people leave the house, take a metal bar and weld a
self taping screw to the middle making a T handle, twist the sucker into the lock and pull out the rim cylinder
Meawoppl March 11th, 2006, 09:14 PM

I have worked extensively w/ bump keys (b/c we had some break in problems associated with one) and there is a number of rather elegant methods by which bump keys can be easily defeated.
First, you can add a third tumbler to your row of two. This will cause the top one to be thrown instead of the one crossing the shear line. If you put one or two of the smallest length pins in your already small pin
line, this is very effective.
Second, add a top pin of different compsure. Because I am a wee bit paranoid (and have access to a nice machine shop), I have a lead pin and a magnesium pin in my 8 tumbler lock. This causes the shear line to be
clear at different interavals of time, because they all get the same keinetic energy imparted and thusly complete their travel at different rates.
Third, toughen one or two springs. Replace a couple of the the springs in the lock w/ heavier ones. Streach your springs out a bit to make them push harder at their natural position. Put one on top of another!
I have also heard some things about "fragile pins" pins that are designed to break when axial force is applied. This causes the lock to bind if tampered with.
Just some wisdom for all you paranoid folks out there.
nbk2000 April 6th, 2006, 02:13 AM

Finally! A n00bie with something intelligent to add! :D
nbk2000 August 28th, 2006, 06:04 AM

One of the countermeasures to bumpkeying is to 'short drill' one of the pinholes, so that the bottom of the pin doesn't reach all the way down into the keyway like the rest of the pins do.
So, in a normal lock, the pins might all be:
*****
*****
*****
But, in a short pinned lock, the pins would be like:
*****
*****
***_*
*=pin lengths
So, in the above example, pin 4 (1>5, L>R) would be the short pin.
When you try bumping such a lock, only 4 out of 5 pins is being hit, so the short pin keeps the lock locked. :p
Assuming one of the pins only went to the 7 depth, instead of the normal 9, but at random between the 1>5 pinholes, you'd need bumpkeys of the following profile in order to successfully continue using it.
79999
97999
99799
99979
99997
Then throw in pins of tungsten and titanium (very heavy and very light), and now the problem for a would-be bumper becomes exceedingly complicated. :p
But then you've got air-bumping...
nbk2000 October 18th, 2006, 09:20 AM

An interesting russian site that shows many different locks being bumped or bypassed, with video. :)
http://www.locks.su/bump/index.shtm
InfernoMDM January 2nd, 2007, 08:00 AM

I have a question. Has anyone created a bumpkey template? Something maybe printable that you could take blank keys and use this stencil of sorts to fashion your own key. I am not sure if that is even possible,
but I would love to create a bumpkey myself without the difficulty of detailed manuals about depths etc. My knowledge of bumpkeys are very limited so please forgive me if this is a dumb question. I tried to look it
up but I couldn't find the information, or my search-fu is weak.
PYRO500 February 3rd, 2007, 09:38 PM

(damnit lost a huge post)
Simply take a lock apart, and use a kw 10 instead of the normal KW1 (for kwitset, sc4 for schlage as opposed to sc1) keyblank in the 5 pin lock.
Take the pins out of the lock, push the longer key in all the way, and put the longest pin back in one of the holes, tap it with a hammer, and do the same for the rest. This gives you the spacing between the pins that
you need to file down directly down on. Once you have filed down the first 5 pin locations to the maximum depth (usually to the start of the grove in the key, taking down all of the "blade") you can pull it out one
spot, put 2 pins, and mark the 6th spot. This way you dont have to pull out the key a little bit, you just put the key in one depth short and slam it home.
The use of bump keys is limited and can be limited by many things including pins that are very deep as they can spring up into the sheer line (drivers dont matter if the pin is too high) and keep the cylinder from
turning.
As far as NBK's idea goes, I dont see how you would keep the pin from dropping all the way to the wards in the lock unless you had an undersized hole drilled in the back of the lock with a pin lathed in a dremil drill
to where it would be T shaped with a long fat head to keep it from going all the way into a countersunk hole. Still, the best way to prevent bumping IMO is to use a key with angled cuts such as a medeco bi axial
lock with sidebar. (pick one of those and your a champ).
Also there is a lock brand called schlage primus that has pins aligned along the side of the lock that have to be moved in addition to those that normally move up and down. I haven't even tried to pick one of those
but I hear they are very difficult and with a sidebar next to impossible to bump with side "bumps" in the track running down the side.
nbk2000 February 3rd, 2007, 10:33 PM

The Primus, and similiar side-bar locks where the side bar pins are activated by a parallel key track, are still bumpable, as most sidebars are regionally common, with only the conventional keyway providing
individualization.
This is done as a means of allowing replication by locksmiths without requiring a huge stock of unique sidebar key blanks.
So if you can identify the sidebar used by the target lock, you can likely obtain a similiar sidebar key from any locksmith in town, and cut it down into a useable bump key. :)
Eoin February 3rd, 2007, 11:03 PM

As I posted elsewhere ,I've been in India for the past 9 weeks and from one end of the country to the other I noticed that almost universal use was made of the Godrej brand of 7lever padlocks. These are turning
key locks of what appears to be a very old design.
India being a country that is not free of thieves, far from it! !, so why the popularity of what appears to be a simple padlock?
I might add that these locks along with a hefty hasp and staple are used on the doors of flats in apartment buildings as well as Government offices etc.
Are they hard to pick?
PYRO500 February 3rd, 2007, 11:15 PM

Usually when locksmiths do a job involving HS locks they order a set of them to the system. Those primus keys are just a regular schlage key blank with a track cut into the side. They can be duplicated on a
regular schlage blank but you need a special expensive side mill key cutter, thus most locksmiths don't cut the keys, but rather order them by code, and key the cylinders accordingly. One of the advantages of
that is that you can have a master key system with the top pins, and use a master key system you devised (difficult to work out a new system with many possible key changes planned) with a different side cut,
thereby making another local person's key with the same top bitting not work due to the side bitting. But in short the side bitting is unique to each cylinder. The keyway is a difrent matter entirely.
Not all of those high security schlages use the common key blank we are all used to, you can have: a key with normal bitting (couple hundred to thousand combinations) to unique side bitting (probably a few
hundred combinations) and if you want to pay extra to go the next mile you get a secure keyway.
However, if you had a master key system in the area, and you had one key of a lower authority it might be possible to make a bump key that had the same track as the rest of them. but you might bump the sidebar
pins higher than they are supposed to go normally.
http://protections-vol.com/schlage-details.jpg
thats a picture to show how the thing goes together, but if someone can get one to bump I'd like to hear about it.
Edit: I just checked the precut keys we have for primus rekey jobs and the side bitting is different on each one :(
PYRO500 February 5th, 2007, 08:38 AM

I didn't see the above post by Eoin. Lever locks can be anywhere from very easy, to deceptively difficult to pick. Look up chubb detector locks. On some of them, if any lever is moved too far in the wrong direction,
it locks in position and can't be moved again without inserting the correct key and moving all the levers into position at the same time. Those are the same kind of locks still used on most safety deposit boxes.
If you are lucky, your lock will have some sort of weakness allowing it to be bypassed such as a heel toe locking mechanism (compared to ball bearing) witch lets you shim the lock open. Otherwise you need to
have a completely different set of picks to even attempt to pick lever locks, assuming they aren't of the well built high security models.
*(note, there is a bypass tool for 7 lever safety deposit box locks, your indian locks might just be clones of them, or they could be totally different. I cant tell without seeing it)
nbk2000 March 25th, 2007, 07:50 PM

Last night I made the accidental discovery that the key for an ABUS Buffo padlock will fit in a Kwikset deadbolt keyway, and move the pins. That's what you discover when trying to open locks in the dark. :p
Hmmm...a 999 Kwikset key would be obvious to a pig, but would a 222 ABUS key be? ;)
Any key that would fit in the keyway, and have enough of a cut on it to provide the needed lifting impact to the pins, would work as a bump key, without needing to carry around recognizable burglar tools.
PYRO500 April 23rd, 2007, 01:56 AM

I don't stock abus buffo, but from a web search brought up several links to pictures of disc style padlocks http://www.keymateinc.com/abusBuffo.jpg
if that is the one you are referring to, then it appears to be a Y6 (yale 6) keyway, which is designed to be somewhat difficult to pick, they are usually hard to impression and the way the blade of the key curves a bit
at the top (paracentric) makes them difficult to cut with some old style key punches. I don't know if thats the exact keyway you had, I've never tried to fit a Y6 into a kw1 keyway but I can say for starters that
with soft brass keyblanks and a hammer, you can force many keys into the wrong keyhole (such is the bane of my job...) I'll see if one fits a standard kwikset next time I visit the shop and see if they are even long
enough to make a kw1 bump key with.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > The better of the Victorinox
tools.
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Kamisama August 21st, 2005, 03:32 PM

Alrig ht, so I'm thinking about buying a S.A.K. (Swiss Army Knife). However, I can't determ ine which one is really a good deal.
In m y idea version of a SAK, a person can use the tool for electronics, mechanical work, picking locks (grinding it down to a
pick), killing som ething, along with a lot of other things.
The thing that gets m e though is the concealing of it.
If you look a t the SwissCham p (http://www.swissknifeshop.co.uk/swisscham p_xxlt.html):

http://img38 9 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 3 8 9 / 1 1 2 4 / x l t c l o s e d 0 a f . g i f h t t p : / / i m g 3 8 9 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 3 8 9 / 1 1 6 / s w i s s c h a m p x l t 1 q d . j p g
The thing is bulky.
People know what a SAK looks like because it's red and has a lot of metallic grey/silver on the side.
I d o n ' t t h i n k s t a b b i n g s o m eone with a SAK is that easy either because of control. It's short and stubby.
This is why I'm starting to consider the SwissTool.

http://img29 2 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 2 9 2 / 6 2 0 0 / v i c t o r i n o x b ricegeswisstool4x q.jpg
I l i k e i t b e c a u s e i t c a n b e u s e d a s a m echanica l tool along with other things.

You could simply keep the pliers up and people would think it's just a basic pliers tool.
You could take out th e knife and have a better control using the knife, also.
The swiss arm y use to recieve a type of alum inum SAK that wasn't red. That way it was som ewhat m ore con c e a l a b l e , u n l i k e r e d
obje cts that stim ulate m ore attraction to them .
T h e t h i n g s m issing are the corkscrew which to the expert user might be able to create a hole in wood to guide a screw into it.
Alon g with the scissors which could be replaced by the knife with som e work.
W ith the SwissTool being steel and som ewhat strong, you could use it as a bit of a ham mer.
I think it's th e better tool and MacGyver would trade in his Explorer for it.
I don't think the USB SAK is necessary because it's just for show.
W hat do all of you think would be the better SAK?
Jacks Complete August 21st, 2005, 08:24 PM

I've got a Swiss Cham p, and very useful it is to o! Best toy ever. I also ca rry a che ap Leatherm an clone to replace m y real
leatherman which I lo st.
meselfs S e p t e m b e r 1 9th, 2005, 03:57 PM

I h a v e a C yb er tool. They say it's designed for com pute r repair, but I disagree.
The main things I look for are, besides the basics, scissors and pliers.
The cyber tool's interchangeable bits a re nice too, though once in a while on will fall out while I'm using it and I have to look
for it.
W hen I was buying it (2 summ ers ago, because a lost the previous one I'd been using for 8 years), I was considering getting
one with a saw. I chose not to, and am happy: saws are difficult to sharpen, and cutting tools must be either sharpenable or
discardable.
To com pensate, I purchased reciprocating saw blades: a wood saw, a me tal saw, and a carbide saw. I welded a 1/8" shank
o n t o t h e m , a n d I k e e p t h e m i n m y back pocket along my other 1/8" sha nk tools (lockpicks, scribe s, drills, etc...) in a nylon
belt pack I got with m y knife. It's very slim , I can hardly feel it; these 1/8" tools fit on a little mandrel. I keep the Swiss knife
in m y pocket, I hate the obviousness of a belt pack. Due to this (& the saw issue), Swiss champ is out of the question.
I don't like the swiss tool. Am not entirely sure why, I ju st don't.
I don't like leatherm an because it m akes a less efficient use of it's tools. Eg, it has a sm all (plain) screwdriver, a big one, and
a com b i n e d c a n / b o t t l e o p e n e r . T h e o p e n e r S U C K S , m y d a d h a s o n e o f t h e s e a n d e v e r t i m e he trie s t o o p e n a c a n h e e n d s u p
a s k i n g m y for my swiss tool.
Swiss, on the other hand, has a fat scewdriver/bottle opener, and a sm all screwdriver/can opener, both of which work great;
e x c e p t t h a t s o m e t i m e s y o u n e e d a s l i m sm all screwdriver, m y torque wre nch (back pocket pack) compensates for that.
I n s u m mary, I think a medium swiss is best if you have extra tools in another po cket. You don't need to weld like I did: I've
s e e n p e n c i l - l i k e e x p a nsion collet holders that can hold flat objects and circular ones alike, so all you need is a grinder to m a k e
a s a w/lockpick set.
Edit: and now, after m a n y r a n d o m tries, m y post m agically goes through.
FUTI S e p t e m b e r 2 0th, 2005, 12:08 PM

I think Swiss Cham p is the way better than anything. I have a downgraded clone of SwissTool and I hate it som etim e . I l o o k e d
pretty good when I buy it, but I forget to presum e it will become very wobbly in tim e d u e t o e x t e n s i v e u s a g e . " M o n o l i t h i c "
construction of Swiss Cham p can be beaten in that respect as yo u r c l o s e d p a l m a r o u n d h a n d l e a n d finger to point the tool will
fix it enough no matter how loose it become through exploatation tim e .
nbk2000 September 2 2nd, 2005, 01:31 PM

I use my Gerber multi-tool several times every day. This model is the one that has the plier jaws that pop out when you flick
your wrist. And it's the early version with solide handles, not that faggy skeletonized version they've got now.
I m uch prefe r it to the Leatherman, as I can access all the tools with one hand, unlike the Leatherm an.
I never did like the Swiss Army knives (not clones) that I had when I was younger. Too frail. Can't use 'em a s a h a m m er or
pryb ar like a Gerber. :p
Jacks Complete S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2005, 04:17 PM

I ' v e b e e n u s i n g t h e C h a m p f o r y e a r s a s a h a m m er. You use the back face, and it does for an em ergency tool.
As regards the saws, I've used the wood blade a few tim es, and it is horrifically effective. The metal one I don't use, but again,
I would if I really needed to.
The (Phillips) screwdriver is amazing. It's better than most of the screwdrivers I have, even the expensive ones.
The little chisel saved m e on Friday, when a job would h ave gone awry - it was only just good enough, but that's all it needs to
be, and is still there next tim e.
I use the belt pouch for the biggest SAK with th e c o m p a ss and stuff too, and carry the cha mp in it. The biggest is ju st that bit
too big, im o .
O h , a n d u s e s o c i a l e n g i n e e r i n g t o g e t p a s t t h i n gs. I've walked into bars, pubs, co urt houses (with m etal detectors) and police
stations with mine on m y b e l t , a n d n o t h a d a n i s s u e t o d a t e .
And if you do get stopped, it's "only" a Swiss Army Knife.
sdjsdj October 6th, 2005, 04:48 PM

I own a victorinox locksm ith (alas, now discontined) and have found it extremely durable (F****** near indestructible, I
should say), with high quality steel blades, really useful tools, good, secure locking m e c h a n i s m , re assuring weight in a pocket
s i z e d g a d g e t a n d - m ost im portantly - a PAIR OF TWEEZERS. W here would we all be in our day to day lives without a pair of
tweezers?

W ell, I'd be walking around with numerous splinters in both m y h a n d s , a n d I ' m g u e s s i n g m y nose hair would run right out m y
n o s e a n d j o i n t h e o l d m oustache... :o
I currently use a med ium sized Leathe rm an which saves m y ass every now and then (at least once a week), but the only
p r o b l e m I have with it is it cannot be o pened with only one hand very easily, thou g h I s o m ehow manage it in a pinch with the
help of m y k n e e c a p o r s h i n . I ' v e s e e n o f t e n a n d used only once the Gerber like NBK uses, and I m ust say that I'd probably
carry that everywhere I go were I to ha ve one. Right now the Leatherm an has it's place in a pouch on m y tapebelt, and that
only straps o n m e when I'm at the shop. (no, the tweezers aren't integra l to it, either). C ome to think of it, it's also very hard
to get it to hold a good edge on the blade, as well. :(
T h e L e a t h e r m a n i s t o a Gerbe r what a .22LR is to a .44 mag IMHO... It's a great thing to have when you don't have the real
deal.
More handy to m e even than anything with pliers and screwdrivers is one of those folding razorblade holders you can get at
H o m e Depot for about ten bucks. NOT the slide-out type box-cutter, though, the folder which resem bles a regular folding
l o c k b l a d e . O n e h a n d e d o p e n i n g ( w i t h t h e t h u m b lever on the blade holder), neve r n e e d s s h a r p e n i n g a s y o u s i m ply pop in a
new razorblade or flip the old one, locks open just like a Buck, a nd clips right inside your pocket or on your belt. Gotta love
'em .
NBK's talk of owning several SAKs at an early age made m e flashback for a tim e t o w h e n I w a s a b o u t 1 0 y o a . T h e f o l k s b o u g h t
m e o n e o f t h o s e s u p e r b u l k y C u b S c o u t f o l d e r s t h a t h a d e v e n a f o r k a n d spoon attached which folded on the OUTSIDE of the
d a m n thing (what are you sup posed to own THREE of these things at a tim e to enjoy a fricken m e a l ? ? ? ) . W h e n I ' d b r e a k t h e
im practical and unsightly bastards off a new one would appear in the Christm as stocking later that year. Co uldn't ever seem to
find the last one I'd modified after the new one appeared, either. Must h ave owned 5 or m ore in m y youth. W orthless. Anyone
r e m e m ber these things?
All I wanted was a good clip point sheath knife or a Buck... (Santa was a dickhead when it cam e to cutlery, LOL. Musta found
o u t I s p r a y e d R a i d o n h i s c o o k i e s o n e y e a r . D O H!). :D
sdjsdj October 10th , 2005, 06:23 AM

T h e L e a t h e r m a n i s t o a Gerbe r what a .22LR is to a .44 mag IMHO... It's a great thing to have when you don't have the real
deal.
I don't know, have you seen this?http://www.leatherm an.com /products/tools/super-tool-200/default.asp
Certainly looks heavy - duty e n o u g h , a n d t h e W a v e i s s u p p o s e d to be fa irly high quality too. A bit expensive though.
festergrump October 10th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 9 : 0 4 P M

Surely, they're not a BAD thing to have, and I have owned m ine for several years... Mine m ost resem bles the "Kick" m o d e l
m inus the lanyard attachm ent and the comfy looking finger grooves. But when I used a Gerber (forgot which m odel) I sim ply
fell in love with it. I was very pro-leatherman until then. One day I'll own a Gerber. I've been so im pressed with everything they
offer from their boot daggers to their kitchen cutlery before, I just cannot see going wrong with a m ulti tool by them.
I h a v e o n e o f their low-end hunting folders with a camo plastic h a n d l e I f o u n d a t W alm art miss-priced at $5.99. I could care
l e s s a b o u t t h e h a n d l e b e i n g o f cheape r quality since it's not really all tha t bad (I just prefer a wood grip to plastic), but the
blad e r e a l l y k e e p s a f i n e e d g e f o r a l o n g t i m e with little effort. I just had to buy it before som eone else did as it was the last
one they had there, and when I returned the next day they had set out 3 m ore at the correct price... $25.99 :(
Flake2m October 21st, 2005, 06:54 AM

I have a swiss recruit, a ten function tool that to me is worth its weight in gold.
Sure, its only ten funtions, but all I ever seem to use are the kn i v e s , c a n o p e n n e r a n d b o t t l e o p e n ner.
I s e e m to use it alm ost every day and when yo u attach a sm all LED keyring light to it, its use beco m e s e v e n greater, because
you can use it in the dark.
The only problem I have with it, is that the blades aren't lockable, however since m y SAK isn't a weapon (and hopefully never
will be) a lock isn't nessecary.
Jacks Complete October 22nd, 2005, 08:50 PM

W ith the C hamp, there is a quick way to convert the knife into a knuckleduster.
Open the pliers out, then fold the handle open as far as it will go, then close the pliers back into the body. The resulting
triangle is so lid, a finger can go between the two arms of the pliers, the thumb wraps roun d, and the rest of the hand grips the
knife solidly.
You can punch a chunk out of cinderblock witho ut trouble.
meselfs Novem ber 1st, 2005, 03:37 PM

I don't think that's a very good idea, because it doens't protect com pletely, and it's uncom fortable. Also, in that position, the
knife is prone to fold back on you.
A better way to use the front end of yo ur fist is to have the little ream er/leather p uch protruding through yo ur middle & ring
fingers. It won't be in the way of anything, and the knife won't fold back unless you purposely do just the wrong move.
Jacks Complete Novem ber 3rd, 2005, 09:06 PM

I don't think that's a very good idea, because it doens't protect com pletely, and it's uncom fortable. Also, in that position, the
knife is prone to fold back on you.You misunderstand - you aren't using a knife blade, just the pliers. Try it and you will see it
isn't dropable, or fold able. It is a very nice 'duster, and gives ex cellent protection. As I say, you ca n punch the shit out of a
cinderblock wall, and neither your hand nor you r SAK will care.
A better way to use the front end of yo ur fist is to have the little ream er/leather p uch protruding through yo ur middle & ring
fingers. It won't be in the way of anything, and the knife won't fold back unless you purposely do just the wrong move.That
m ethod hurts a lot when you hit anything, as the blade tips back and forth. If it closes, it isn't too bad, but flexing backwards,
it pinches the skin ha rd enough to draw blood. Oh, and use the chisel, not the ream er, it's better for a straight punch.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Alpha Zero detector (???)
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Cordtex S e p t e m b e r 2 5th, 2005, 08:05 AM

D o e s a n y o n e k n o w t h e "Alpha Zero" security detection tool?? I've seen security guards using it at parking lot entrances. Did a
google search found nothing but this from their cache: http://im a g e s . g o o g l e . c o m /imgres?im gurl=http://www.global-security-
s o l u t i o n s . c o m / A l p h a 6 _files/im age007.jpg&im grefurl=http://www.global-security-solutions.com /
Alph a6.htm&h=336&w=301&sz=12&tbn id=wgf9ILMecQ AJ:&tbnh=115&tbnw=103&hl=en&start=239&prev=/
im a g e s % 3 F q %3Dalpha%2Bsecurity%26start%3 D 2 2 0 % 2 6 s v n u m % 3 D 1 0 % 2 6 h l % 3 D e n % 2 6 l r % 3 D % 2 6 s a % 3 D N
I wonder what this device do. All I have noticed that the telescopic antenna flips right and left and I think it has a tiny LC D.

J u s t a n u p d a ted form of the 'Dowsing' rod. :rolleyes:
Search the Forum using 'Dowsing' and you'll find previous discussions on this topic.
End topic.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > US Army trialling water extraction from Humvee diesel fumes
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Jacks Complete November 3rd, 2005, 09:22 PM

Army Tries Water From Vehicle Exhaust Fumes
Associated Press | October 05, 2005
Keeping an army provisioned in the desert is a ballet of logistics, particularly when it comes to supplying two vital liquids: diesel fuel and water.
Now, using technologies developed for the space program, the U.S. Army is conducting an experiment that could convert the exhaust pipes of military vehicles into water
fountains.
Later this month, United Technologies Corp.'s Hamilton Sundstrand unit will deliver two military Humvees to the Army for three months of testing at the Aberdeen Proving
Ground outside Baltimore. Built into each vehicle's truck bed is a complex system that can recover water from engine exhaust, purifying as much as half the liquid volume from
a tank of fuel.
"This is one of those things where, when you first hear about it, you think the scientists have gone out of their minds," says Robert Leduc, president of Hamilton Sundstrand's
flight systems business, which includes the water-recovery program. "But once you taste the water, you realize the potential."
The military calculates that a soldier in the desert needs about 20 gallons of water a day, five of which must be pure enough to drink, prepare food and use for medical needs.
(The other 15 gallons are for bathing, washing clothes and the like.) Water gets to the front in vulnerable, slow-moving truck convoys that require armed escorts, or it is
pumped from local rivers, lakes or ponds and purified by heavy-duty filters.
For the Army, the logistics of moving water limits how it can use troops. When soldiers are deployed in the field, it can easily take 40 percent of them to move water and other
materials, often placing them in vulnerable positions, says Jay Dusenbury, science and technology team leader for the Army's Tank-Automotive Research, Development and
Engineering Center, or TARDEC, in Warren, Mich. "Anything that can cut down on that vulnerability and enable troops to fight - even if they have been cut off from traditional
water supplies - could be huge," he says.
Hamilton Sundstrand, based in Windsor Locks, Conn., has a $2 million contract to provide the Army with the first two water-generating Humvees. It also is completing a $1
million contract for a high-powered dehumidifier the size of a dorm-room refrigerator that can extract water vapor from the air, even in the desert. The Army plans to display
the water-from-air box this week in Washington, D.C., at the annual convention of the Association of the U.S. Army, a lobbying and support group for active and retired
personnel.
Converting diesel exhaust into drinking water is an idea that has been around for a while. It continues a field of research aimed at squeezing the most out of valuable resources
in areas such as space travel. "When it costs $10,000 a pound to bring water to the space station, you start getting creative," says Ed Francis, vice president of land and sea
systems at Hamilton Sundstrand. "We try to take waste products and turn them back into usable products again."
In motor vehicles, among the byproducts of fuel combustion are unburned hyrdrocarbons and water. Scientists have long known that those waste products, along with much of
the heat, are expelled out the exhaust pipe and into the atmosphere. Laboratory scientists at the University of Kentucky's Center for Applied Energy Research, in Lexington,
discovered a way to filter out usable water vapor.
Scientists Marit Jagtoyen, Geoff Kimber and the late Frank Derbyshire patented the filter technology, and Dr. Jagtoyen co-founded Lexington Carbon Co. in 1994. She installed
the first prototype of a water-recovery system in a commercial Humvee in 2001, as part of an Army-funded small-business research grant. LexCarb later teamed with Hamilton
Sundstrand to develop a unit that could withstand the rigors of military use.
The Humvees in the the demonstration program are, from the outside, indistinguishable from other military vehicles, except for a small water spigot behind the right rear
wheel. Beneath the metal panels of the truck bed is a system of pipes and filters, which can collect water whenever the engine is running, at a rate of one gallon of water for
every two gallons of fuel burned.
In the combustion process, the oxygen in the air combines with the hydrogen in the fuel, producing water vapor and exhaust gases. Rather than going out the tailpipe, the
gases are vented through a catalytic converter to bake off as many impurities as possible, then run through two heat exchangers, which extract heat and cause the water
vapor to condense into the collection tank. "At this point, the water is - at best - gray in color," says Gregg Newbold, general manager of Hamilton Sundstrand's Army and
Marine programs.
From there, the decidedly unappetizing-looking water moves to a series of six "treatment beds," which consist of proprietary carbon filters developed by LexCarb. The first four
filters strain out black gunk so that the water becomes amber. The final two filters remove remaining impurities, resulting in water that is as clean, or cleaner, than the tap
water of many U.S. cities.
From there, the system adds a chlorine solution to kill bacteria and algae that might form post-purification and then deposits the water in a five-gallon tank. A spigot inside the
cab of the vehicle dispenses water chilled by the air conditioner. "It has a slight chlorinated taste, but compared to how it started out, it's quite good," says Hamilton
Sunstrand's Mr. Newbold. In theory, the tank could function as a source of drinking water for a crew of, say, four people over the course of a day. (It isn't intended to be the
sole water source for an extended period.)
The filtration system, like many other fledgling processes, has tough hurdles to clear before ever making it into regular use, and many such technologies never survive the
testing process. The water-recovery systems will have to get much cheaper before they can widely used. The goal would be to have the system cost no more than 20 percent
of a military vehicle's price tag.
Weight and efficiency present the biggest drawbacks. The system on the Humvee weighs just under 500 pounds and can filter only between 75 and 200 gallons of water before
the filters must be replaced. And of course it produces water only as long as the vehicle is burning fuel. The water-from-air system makes about 600 gallons of water a day,
compared with 600 gallons an hour for a traditional machine that purifies water from a river or pond.
"But the potential of this technology really fires up the imagination," says the Army's Mr. Dusenbury. "We have proven that it can be done, so now it's a matter of proving that
it can be more robust and practical."
For Hamilton Sundstrand, the potential upside could be huge. As part of the Army's plans to transform its fighters into more nimble, self-sufficient forces under the ongoing
multibillion-dollar Future Combat Systems program, contractors have been asked to develop systems that will enable soldiers to fight for 72 hours without any logistical support.
In coming years, the military plans to procure thousands of vehicles, ranging from an estimated 5,000 souped-up fighting vehicles to 60,000 Humvee replacements to 30,000
large trucks for hauling heavy loads. "Any and all of these vehicles could be candidates for a water-recovery system," says Mr. Newbold.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > They can find you - Anonymous sperm donor traced on internet
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Jacks Complete November 3rd, 2005, 09:26 PM

Anonymous sperm donor traced on internet
* 03 November 2005
* NewScientist.com news service
* Alison Motluk
Web Links
* FamilyTreeDNA.com
* Omnitrace.com
* OxfordAncestors.com
* DonorSiblingRegistry.com
LATE last year, a 15-year-old boy rubbed a swab along the inside of his cheek, popped it into a vial and sent it off to an online genealogy DNA-testing service. But unlike most
people who contact the service, he was not interested in sketching the far reaches of his family tree. His mother had conceived using donor sperm and he wanted to track
down his genetic father.
That the boy succeeded using only the DNA test, genealogical records and some internet searches has huge implications for the hundreds of thousands of people who were
conceived using donor sperm. With the explosion of information about genetic inheritance, any man who has donated sperm could potentially be found by his biological
offspring. Absent and unknown fathers will also become easier to trace.
The teenager tracked down his father from his Y chromosome. The Y is passed from father to son virtually unchanged, like a surname. So the pattern of gene variants it carries
can help identify which paternal line an individual has descended from and can also be linked to a man's surname.
The boy paid FamilyTreeDNA.com $289 for the service. His genetic father had never supplied his DNA to the site, but all that was needed was for someone in the same
paternal line to be on file. After nine months of waiting and having agreed to have his contact details available to other clients, the boy was contacted by two men with Y
chromosomes closely matching his own. The two did not know each other, but the similarity between their Y chromosomes suggested there was a 50 per cent chance that all
three had the same father, grandfather or great-grandfather.
Many have not told their families and never considered the implications of having a dozen offspring wanting to meet them
Importantly, the men both had the same last name, albeit with different spellings. This was the vital clue the boy needed to start his search in earnest. Though his donor had
been anonymous, his mother had been told the man's date and place of birth and his college degree. Using another online service, Omnitrace.com, he purchased the names of
everyone that had been born in the same place on the same day. Only one man had the surname he was looking for, and within 10 days he had made contact.
"This is the first time that I know of it being done," says Bryan Sykes, a geneticist at the University of Oxford and chairman of OxfordAncestors.com, a genetic genealogy
service. The case raises serious questions about whether past promises of anonymity can be honoured, he says.
Around 1 in 800 births in 2002 and 2003 in the UK were the product of donor sperm, according to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, a public body that
regulates fertility technologies. And an estimated 25,000 people have been born from donated sperm in the UK in the past 15 years. Also, around 90,000 donor inseminations
take place in the US annually, although not all result in pregnancies.
In the UK and various other countries, sperm donors must now allow their identity to be revealed to their children once they reach a certain age, but in the US most sperm
donors are still anonymous. "Sperm banks are recruiting donors and promising them anonymity," says Wendy Kramer, the mother of a donor child and founder of
DonorSiblingRegistry.com, an online service that matches donor offspring with their half-siblings. "I don't think that's a valid promise any more."
As more genetic information becomes available online, finding a donor father can only get easier. FamilyTreeDNA.com is running 2400 projects to trace particular surnames and
has a database of over 45,000 Y chromosome signatures. The Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation, based in Salt Lake City, Utah, promises to go even further. It is
recruiting people from around the world and hopes to compile a database of about 500,000 representative individuals, with confirmed pedigrees going back at least four
generations. The foundation will keep a database of information on Y chromosome markers, mitochondrial DNA (passed down through the maternal line) and 170 other genetic
markers.
The news will be especially unsettling for men who donated anonymously before the power of genetics was fully appreciated. Donors were often college students who traded
their sperm for beer money. Many have not told their wives or children and have never considered the implications of having a dozen offspring suddenly wanting to meet them.
"The case shows that there are ethical and social concerns about assisted reproduction that we did not think about," says Trudo Lemmens, a bioethicist at the University of
Toronto, Canada.
And the implications go beyond offspring searching for their genetic fathers. "The DNA could have come from a crime scene," says Sykes. Police could perform similar searches
to identify a criminal's surname, giving vital leads in a case. "There are tremendous forensic ramifications," he adds.
From issue 2524 of New Scientist magazine, 03 November 2005, page 6
Kamisama November 11th, 2005, 11:30 PM

I'm sorry, I'm still a newb. However, isn't this the wrong area for an article?
tmp November 12th, 2005, 03:31 PM

A scientific technique is being discussed, therefore it is appropiate to
post it in this section. Lesson for the sperm donor - KEEP IT IN YOUR
SHORTS !

>...wrong section...
Well, I'd list finding stuff like this out as a "technique" or a "plan". So no.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Altering, mutating, disfiguring
your fingerprints..
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bigbadgrinch Novem ber 13th, 2005, 08:14 PM

I know this topic hasn't been discussed very m u c h b e c a u s e m o s t o f u s a r e b r i g h t e n o u g h t o u s e g l o v e s . H o wever for som e o f
us, rather then talking on the forum all day, have gone out into the real world and comm itted m u l t i p l e f e l o n i e s a n d h a d t h e
unfortunate experiance of being caught. Now I have trolled the internet for any and all information on this topic and s e e m to
have com e u p with nothing prom ising. The only thing I have found that SEEMS to be som ewhat optim istic is this link:
http://www.totse.com / e n / b a d _ i d e a s / s c a m s_and_rip_offs/prints.htm l
P e r h a p s s o m e of you could read this file and give your opinions? I am very interested in the right pain killers to tak e , a n d
s o m e t h i n g t h a t s e e m s promising other then piranha fluid, or som e batte ry acid. :eek: :eek: This would have to be a
permanent change. As always thank you to all the sm art people on this forum for their thoughts.
- G.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Altering, Changing Fingerprints
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bigbadgrinch Novem ber 14th, 2005, 11:03 PM

W as wondering if anyone could look at this and let us know the validity.
http://www.totse.com / e n / b a d _ i d e a s / s c a m s_and_rip_offs/prints.htm l
This would be for a permanent solution to chan ging you r fingerprints. Any ideas would be appreciated, and I thank the sm art
people of this forum for your thoughts.
- G
claretyouth S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2006, 05:52 PM

That sounds like pain!
I ' d r a t h e r u s e g l o v e s a s s o m e o n e m entioned... or Matsum to's way...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2 0 0 2 / 0 5 / 1 6 / g u m m i_bears_defeat_fingerprint_sensors/
5_seven S e p t e m b e r 2 0th, 2006, 05:14 PM

U n l e s s y o u c a n s t a n d s o m e r e a l p a i n , u s e g l o v e s , c a u s e t h e o n l y t h i n g t h a t ' s g o i n g t o p e r m anently alter your prints is lotsa
scar tissue. And that hurts.

Do you seriously expect anyone here to discuss the merits of a fucking 2 5 year old BBS file hosted at TO TSE? FFS discuss it
there, not here, or stick that crap in the water cooler.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > The Improvised Planetary
Camera
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Kamisama December 8th, 2005, 05:36 PM

Alright, so I've read through much of the document, read many different sources on the web.
Then I decided, "Screw the tripod, too much work, rather build a copystand."
The problem exists with weight, time, money, etc.. So I come here to ask for help on this project because I am in no way a
builder. I have a McGyver gene in my DNA which helps me out, though. :D
Anyways, I'm decided to build a copystand. I've found a few websites, one with a PVC copystand, and the other with a metallic
copystand.
I'm not familiar with PVC too much but I believe with that I could do the metallic design with PVC pipes instead of metal pipes.
Thus, reducing cost.
- Metallic Design (http://www.worth1000.com/tutorial.asp?sid=161040&page=1)
- PVC Design (http://www.csigizmos.com/products/photography/photostand.html)
I believe I can knock off some money because I have a few household lamps, but more importantly these light sockets that
sprout other light sockets to allow someone to put 4 lightbulbs in one lamp or more.
I remember my livingroom being brighter than the freakin' sun once.
I'm sure the PVC design is pretty nice, however I don't understand where I mount the digicam, also on another note is the
problem of the digicam I put in another thread, but decided to move here because it's not an opinion or a contemporary world
event.
--------------
I've been saving up money for a 4.0 MP camera ever since I read the how-to guide. The thing is, I came looking for this type
of thread and noticed that you had said it would be somewhat O.K. for a person to use a 2.1+ MP camera. I really question
what the megapixel resolution required is.
I've got some books I want to scan 8/9.5 x 11

These books aren't highly graphic except this one (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/007298936X/qid=1133722665/sr=8-1/
ref=pd_bbs_1/104-4060590-4008740?n=507846&s=books&v=glance). It includes photographs and art of different people
from Picasso to a detailed B&W picture of Charlie Chaplin in a scene from Modern Time where he is standing next to a bunch
of gears (http://www.stadtkinowien.at/imgs/filme/26/01_big.jpg).
In a science book I would assume those gears and their location would be of importance. I do have some psychology books
that talk about neuroscience so I find capturing some detail to be important. I don't need great in depth, but I need enough
detail to understand what the picture is telling me.
Math books will be of importance; Electronic books, also.
So I've got about $130 USD. I could have bought a 5 MP camera for $45 with the LCD broken but didn't because I did not
know if the LCD would be important for the accuracy and position of imaging. I didn't know if some users here found the LCD
to be a huge help or not.
If I can get a digicam with a lower MP and if it works correctly, then I should be able to save some cash. However, does a lower
MP work?
Note: I don't really care about OCR'ing the text. I don't care about having a search feature at all really. I just care about
bending my physical books up because I have to flip through them. I have a page down key and quick eyesight, I'll do fine
without the search option.
I figure since I don't care about OCR, that means I'm allowed to have the MP go down a bit, right? I remember you had said
in the tutorial that 4.1MP was the minimum for OCR'ing, but I don't feel the need for it.
So from the info, would getting a lower MP be allowed so I can save some cash? Should I go with 4 MP even though? I thought
about going up to 5 MP, but as I said I don't care about OCR, I care about image quality and detail.
Quality images like this would become necessary to view:
http://www.telemedicine.org/BioWar/bw06a.jpg
http://www.telemedicine.org/BioWar/bw12a.JPG
http://www.telemedicine.org/BioWar/bw43ba.JPG
Also something more about the turning of pages.

In my head I concieved the idea that a person could build a hinge system with a glass mirror attached, somewhat like on an
entertainment center cabinent. That way the could lift the glass, turn the page, lower the glass. Anyone try this?
--------------
Mounting the digital camera and having the correct digital camera will be something of concern. I read more of the document
and learned the LCD screen means very little, which I can understand since 35mm SLRs back in the day had no such thing for
doing copystand work. Precision had to have been known and learned when using the 35mm film.
The thing about the metallic plan is that it uses a table which also gives room to space for my idea of using a window pane
and attaching it to some board with a hinge system. This allowing me to raise the glass, turn page, and then lower.
Not a bad thing for speed and accurracy I think. especially if you can find a simple ground such as posterboard for the book..
draw an outline on the posterboard of the book.. simply like tracing your hand. that way the book can be positioned back into
place if moved. this could also be done to the window hinge system.
I believe a tripod system however would cause more greif because of the extension reach and positioning.. it would just take
too much time to realign.
Also, to solve the simple problem of raising the other side of the book with air space underneath it, a person could use a
laboratory jack to simply raise the other side.
I'm still wondering which plan to use. I'm leaning towards the metallic one, however I don't like screwing it into the drywall. I'll
have to improvise a way to do that.
I figure the PVC copy stand will get the job done quickly.. However..
There were a few things mentioned, such as the labratory ring stand which seems to be of interest because of the lightbulbs.
http://www.csigizmos.com/products/photography/photostand.html
- Teaches me how to make a copystand, but I don't understand that part about: 1- Swivel camera head adapter $ 8.50
(optional)
How, when, what, where? What is it? how do i add it? when? where do i get it?
I assume these books will be...

9x12 inches long for a page.. perhaps 18x12 for the whole scanning of two pages.
Simply if I use my MacGyver skills I figure all I need is the stand part with the camera attachment, a piece of heavy wood
25x25 to screw it onto, and some bricks to make sure it doesn't fall.
What do you all think?

Ok, well, the use of PVC pipe makes things a lot easier when it comes to cutting. If you got a wide pipe, you could easily
mount the camera head in the pipe itself. Once jigged properly, it will work just great. That's the whole point of the project!
If you can still get that 5.1MP camera with no LCD get it, as this is the perfect use for such a thing - the target is always in
exactly the right place, so it will always be correct when set up. Make sure it comes with the PSU, though, or it will hold you
back a lot!
The whole thing in PVC shouldn't take you long. Get a few joints for the PVC as well, and you will be able to mock it up before
cutting or glueing anything. For a quick way to "make" a glass screen, get a cheap scanner, or a free but broken one. Take it
apart, and invert the top so the glass is upwards and hinged onto the scanner lid. This will do the job of a complex system
easily and quickly. Now sort out the lighting. You need lots of light, but diffused well, or at an angle such that reflections don't
appear on the camera lense.
That should be it. From 1 page a minute or two to one page every 2 seconds. :-)
Kamisama January 21st, 2006, 01:07 AM

Hopefully this thread will help people who decide to do this project.
I did the csigizmos copystand with pvc cement as I figured the stand would only hold with the cement.
I found using clear tape to hold down a book is more wise than plain duct tape, mainly because it doesn't leave a sticky
residue on it as much.
Of course when that tape is ripped off, it takes off some of the paper.. so there's gotta be some alternative method..
I think that with time and money saved up, a copystand that is not DIY and around $40 (http://www.kodak.com/eknec/
PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=1722&pq-locale=en_US) would be a good idea instead of a wobbly P.o.S made out of PVC.
I mean.. it seems that my 1/4" hex bolt didn't really stay too glued to the endcap. so yeah, that really made things suck but
now i'm just more calm and cautious.
Lighting is a big issue and if any of you read this one line before I post up the link, I found some webpages on the web and
it's said that when you are doing macrophotography with a copystand, it's usually best to turn off the lights and set up some
300w halogen lamps on a 45 degree angle pointing towards the project. Of course this needs to be diffused so getting some
curtain stuff to make it all soft helps.
\..../
.._..
I found some interesting things for all of those who would like to view some stuff that relates.
Seems some type of military personel was trying to do this project themselves but in a more advanced way with language
conversion.
- http://www.dtic.mil/matris/sbir/sbir022/a038.pdf
From looking at it, it seems that it gives an evaluation of different cameras used in the process of OCR'ing pics.
I also found a program for those of you who are interested. It's suppose to be exactly made for digital cameras.
- TopOCR (http://www.download.com/TopOCR/3000-6675_4-10428067.html?tag=lst-0-1)
User Reviews (http://www.download.com/TopOCR/3640-2192_4-10381376.html)
I did the project but I've found that I'm somewhat unable to OCR multiple things with skewed text in some OCR programs.. of
course OCR was not a main objective for me. Simply JPG to PDF did well enough.
in about an hour or so I'm going to use Omnipage professional 15 and test out it's ability to differentiate between images and
text so that things are sorted correctly.
I messed with the program and it doesn't seem to like me too much, of course I've got much more to work on. I've found that
if the lighting isn't right for a project moving the EV setting in your digital camera will usually balance out the light settings. For
the longest period of time my lighting was awful and it still is. However, it has greatly improved to a more white background
than a light gray. This was achieved by changing the exposure values (http://www.digicamhelp.com/what-is-exposure-
compensation/exposure-value-settings.htm) setting on my fujifilm a350 camera at 1.2+. With a very low setting in a 45-55w
room with fluorescent lighting.. a high EV will be likely to succeed in image manipulation.
Sadly, the OCR'ing for this type of camera wasn't the greatest however the autofocus seems like the digital reading should be
done easy, i'm simply updating for now.
While you're reading this, do you know any batch imaging digital program that can turn pages a very small degree in rotation?
It seems that I have these pages all snapped but they are on a slight tilt. I don't know any program that could turn them
clockwise about 8 degrees for batch besides using clearimage.

I just bought a copystand for myself this Christmas, along with a macro ring light. My new macro lens makes it rather
inconvenient to use my tripod since it needs to be higher up, plus I no longer trust my duct taped tripod to securely hold over
$1000 in equipment.
I got a good deal off of ebay, but I did pay a premium for the copystand lights. If it is a stand you want I say go ebay. There
are a bunch of good deals if you get one WITHOUT lights. I didnt want to bother jury rigging my own lighting setup since I
wanted the stand ASAP.
Funny, this started as something for me to do on the cheap, and now I have a DSLR camera, a nice macro lens, a professional
macro stand with lighting, a ring light, and a wonderful bit of book editing software. Of course I can now crank out an ebook as
good as any scanner in a matter of hours. My only snag now is getting a hold of some of the super expensive chemistry
reference works recently published (libraries will not part with these).
The newer cameras have much better exposure compensation to allow more light in. Other techniques such as f-stopping the
camera and decreasing the shutter speed accomplish the same effect. This means you can get away with a good natural light.
Bacisially if you can see the page well, so can the camera.
I highly recommend setting the white balance on your camera if you can. The white balance will adjust the color temperature to
the light source used. Daylight is different from fluorescent light is different from tungsten light bulbs, etc. If your camera can
do it, setting a custom white balance is best. Having a properly adjusted white balance will make text stand out better and
help make a white background actually look white.
If some of these photography terms are unfamiliar to you just look them up on the Internet. There are numerous websites
devoted to explaining stuff like this in excruciating detail.
Since I have a new camera and better software I am in the process of completely rewriting my tutorial. I have also discovered
the joys of using InDesign, so my little tutorial has taken on the appearance of a commercial ebook.
I certainly did not say, or I hope I did not, that a 2MP camera can be used. In my tests I found anything under 3MP to be
unreadable. Personally I would not use anything under 4MP. When photographing text the higher the megapixels the better
only if you intend to OCR the document. Also keep in mind you will not require a high megapixel count if you focus on a small
portion of a page. A 2MP camera would do fine if you imaged a small newspaper classified ad (a few inches square). My
camera can get over 300 dpi on a full 8.5 x 11 page.
I would not say an LCD is essential because pro DSLR cameras do not output a live image to the LCD screens, thus you (and
by that I mean me) cannot use the LCD to line up a book. It is somewhat inconvenient to have to peer through the viewfinder
since I have to climb up on a stepladder to do this. Pro cameras also do not output what they see to a TV monitor. I do
wonder why only cheaper consumer cameras output a live signal and not pro cameras
I compensate for my lack of an LCD view by being able to transfer all my shots directly to my PC via an attached USB 2.0
cable. The camera software shows a full screen image of the picture just taken. If something is egregiously wrong I just take
the shot. Usually I dont notice anything is funky until I do a close-up inspection of each page after I have finished the book. I
do this immediately afterwards to catch any pages that may be slightly blurry (the perils of autofocus). The tiny LCD wont help
you find any mistakes anyway.
I have found when I use my pane of glass (a custom piece of anti-reflective glass with beveled edges) I just let it rest on an
object about as high as the book I am imaging. This object provides leverage for me to lift the glass. No need for hinges or
anything fancy. Ideally the book should be higher than what the glass pivots on so the glass can rest fully on the book. Now
that I have software that can apply page curvature correction, and I use my flash, I dont use glass much anymore.
I would think a camera head adapter is essential on that improvised copystand, Kamisama. If that is what I think it is, it is
similar to the part of a tripod where you screw in the camera. A swivel head would allow for some creative camera angles other
than just straight down.
To adjust the skew of images (angle slightly off) there are a few software packages that can help. However, automatic
deskewing software leaves a lot to be desired in my opinion. I find photoshop does a wonderful job of manual deskewing. Use
the ruler tool to draw a line that you want to be made straight. Then use the rotate command. The ruler tool will automatically
fill in the proper number of degrees to be rotated. If your pages are systematically skewed you can use the batch command to
do a bunch at once.
I would go into more detail, but I am saving it all up for my new tutorial book.
Kamisama March 4th, 2006, 11:30 PM

I was wondering if anyone out there knew a good numbering program to reverse number the page pictures...
For example:
I find that if I snapshot the even pages, they are flimsy and difficult to deal with. Not only that, but I have to hold down the
pages and cropping becomes more of a hassle.
What I found out is that if I take a picture of the even pages when they are in a mass at the end of the book, dealing with
them is easier
i.e.) going from page 400-> 398 -> 396->... 44

Dealing with the pages is easier, however I don't know if there is a numbering system that allows me to number my pages
correctly with a renaming file. Maybe I'm overlooking something like a fool. However, I don't see a way to change go from...
DSCF1178
then name it:page 400
and then move to
DSCF1179
then name it:page 398
Yeah, I don't know any way of doing this with a program.
Yet, I do have good news...

I found this really kick ass program that does tons of shit.
http://www.atalasoft.com/EyeBatch/
It's fucking awesome. It cuts a lot of time, seriously.

I googled (batch autocropping programs) and I got it.
It does lighting, cropping, grayscale, etc.
megalomania March 13th, 2006, 12:33 PM

I use a program called Flexible Renamer v7.3. Version 7.3 is the latest version I believe, and the software is freeware. See
http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA014830/english/FlexRena/
With Flexible renamer you can easily sequentially number any file, including in reverse as you desire. Flexible renamer does
not need to be installed, you just unpack it and run the exe. I run it from straight from the zip file.
Lets say for example you have three pictures you want to rename names 01.jpg, 02.jpg, and 03.jpg.
After you browse to the folder where your files are you will see all of them in the list to the right of the program. Check the box
named Advanced rename to get to some better options. By default the program has already selected Wild Card which is
what we want. Where it says Search for enter *.jpg or *.whatever your file extensions are. Even *.* will be fine if you want to
rename every file in the folder.
Where it says Replace with enter ???.jpg where each question mark will enter a digit. Two question marks will add 00 to 99,
and three questions marks will add 000 to 999.
Click the button at the bottom of the program named Option and click numbering from the list that pops up. In the box
named Start from choose a number that is equal to or higher than the number of files you have. The default value is 0
already. Just for example I will use 99. if you have 467 files to rename, then you would use 467, or maybe 500, or any
number higher than the number of files you have.
In the box named step change this to -1 by clicking on the down arrow a few times. This changes the direction of numbering
by subtracting 1 from the start number of 99.
Click OK and you will see your first renamed file starts with the highest number, and each successive file is numbered 1 less.
In our example those three files would be renamed to 099.jpg, 098.jpg, and 097.jpg.
I have attached screenshots that shows how this works. Remember, no renaming of files takes place until you click the
Rename button. The program shows you what your files will be renamed to before you click it just so you can be sure.
There are other options you can play around with. For example you can set the step to -2 and renumber just your even or odd
pages. I keep my original pictures in a folder with only even and only odd pages, then I use a step of 2 to renumber them
according to page number.

I must say that I recently bought a new media card, and it is about 20 times faster than my old ones. If I get a decent
camera (5+MP) I'll be able to do some of this scanning like this. I've found my old camera too slow and too small a capacity
(fixed now) and with only 2MP it isn't good enough.
Kamisama March 17th, 2006, 02:09 AM

Who's ready for a well thought out ten-page document?
Hmm.. only 8 images? Well darn, I'll have to break it up.
Thank you Mega, Jack, and all who spoke of the Improvised Planetary camera project.
And by the way, mods, please don t edit this unless ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.
I rather someone reply.
Ok, I m g o ing to type u p my guidan ce for people from complete noob to intermediate us er. Yo u co uld see this as me te sting
your procedures. All goo d scientists tes t a each other s work.
I. Introduction
II. Camera and Accessories
III. Copy stand
IV. Lighting
V. Programs
I. Introduction
When I first came to this website seeking enlightenment for experimental weapons and explosives creation, I noticed a few
documents users have cre ated. Megalomania s d ocument to make an imp rovised planetary camera spark ed interest in me
right away. I had th ought previo us mo nths b efore ab out how one could scan b ooks already owne d. Yet I didn t have any
guidance until I came across his tutorial.
After finding the tutorial, I read over it multiple times. I later came back to it weeks later to study it and research the validity,
armcha ir think things through, and decided to go through with th e project. I ve learne d many things; all are importan t and
relate to each other. I hope to explain my method to some people, and maybe some will find it as an alternative method. All
things covered are important, if I knew them ahead of time, so much time would have been saved. Maybe I was ignorant or
just did nt und erstan d som e things Mega (Megalomania) spok e of, bu t I finally u nderstand a lot more now.
II. Camera and Accessories
The most importa nt compon ent of th e whole digital book scanning process wo uld ha ve to be the cam era. Without th e
camera , you aren t going to take sn a p s h o ts of p ages. There will be no storage medium for documents co pied without the
camera. Now, Megalomania has stated belief in using a nice, expensive SLR camera.
Being the che ap bastard I am, I decided, Nuh uh. I m no t going to buy an expensive toy. I decid ed to bu y so mething of
lower quality. SLR cameras are nice, and top-notch. Those types of cameras probably allow someone to use a remote control
to take pictures, thu s freeing up someone s h ands when doing this copying p rocess . However, I decided to do the man ual
labor route and choose a digital camera from Best Buy. (An electronics/tvs/computers/music supplier)
I somewhat d isag ree with what Mega said when h e spoke of the LCD scree n bein g completely worthless. I m sure there mus t
be old digital cameras from back in the day with the inability to give a proper WYSIWYG display. A What You See Is What You
Get display often shows in very, very close resemblance of what the picture--after being shot--will look like on a computer
picture-viewing program.
I bought a Fujifilm A350 digital camera. If you want pictures of it, just use google and the pictures tab. This camera has an
LCD screen along with many other features. The camera was not the best thing around, but after looking at the megapixels
of other cameras and the size of photographs they could take, I decided that this camera was the best affordable choice
around. Now, after buying this ca mera an d doin g the project, I ve discovered many things. One is that a p erson doesn t nee d
to buy a store bought camera
On Ebay, a person can often find cameras at 5MP (the megapixel amount I recommend).
Some of these cameras are less expensive because they have been used.
Yet the greatest find on ebay is a camera with a broken LCD screen.
P e o p le seem to b e incapa ble of electronic engineering feats in tod ay s world, so they greatly kn ock off cas h from a partia lly
broken product that still works.
Just because the LCD is broke does not mean the whole camera is broke.
Something to remember from Mega s d ocument was tha t he wou ld use the viewfinder.
The viewfinder is the second greatest part of a camera. The viewfinder is the primary reason I bought my fujifilm a350.
Imagine if my LCD screen broke--I would have to use the viewfinder instead. A person must learn to use a viewfinder without
an LCD screen. After getting correct spatial reasoning of the viewfinder, and previewing pictures loaded to a computer to notice
how they look when using the viewfinder--a person begins to learn how to use the viewfinder instead of the LCD.
The LCD is not necessary, but a nice feature on newer cameras.
Remember! Do not buy a camera if it does not have a viewfinder. I walked around the store noticing the bullshit cameras
with no viewfinder. I tho ught, What a rip! The old metho ds of photogra phy are often better.
People cannot always rely on the LCD; it eats up batteries anyway.
That brings me to another point: P ower s ource. Jack s Complete told me I should get a power adapter or the b atterie s will be
eaten up very quickly. I used those new energizer lithiums, those died quickly. I noticed after I bought the camera that it
did nt come with a power adapter. If you can, buy a digital camera that comes with a power adap ter. I hig hly recomme n d a
digital camera that comes with a power adapter.
I looked online for a power adapter, but could not figure out if the U.S. adapter was much different than the Japanese. I called
technical support and they guided me to B&H photo.
I m no t adve rtising here, but they are a pretty good onlin e photography supply store. Of course, I m still a cheap bastard. I
researched what they were selling for my camera and then bought the power supply on Ebay. Research stores and then buy in
the flea market. Sometimes a smart move if you know what you are doing.
Another note to remember is to get a high storage medium for the digital camera. I bought 256 MB card immediately when I
bought the digital camera. (I think it was 256..)
Either way, these photographs of pages take up a lot of digital storage. If you want to spend less than 5 hours doing
repro graphy I suggest you a higher digital card. That way, you won t upload, delete, and restart more time s than necessary.
It pays off in the long run: Time vs. money. I also have more reasons about getting a better storage flashcard/smartcard,
whatever they call them these days.
If you re wo nderin g, I didn t really find a use fo r the optical zoom. I m sure that if I take the camera on a trip thro ugh a garden
with cherry blossoms or some other event in the fall, I could find a grandiose use for the camera. However, it was bought as
an investment, not a toy. The optical zoom serves a feature for zooming in on subjects. With the distance involved in doing
this repro graphic process, I don t believe the op tical zoom is necessary.
I assume if someone has lower than 5.2 MP the optical zoom will become useful. That is because with a lower resolution,
tuning and zooming in on the picture will give greater results. However, I would a ssume that it wouldn t make much of a
difference either way. I m sure other users will put in the ir two cents about this; plea se do if yo u can.
After learning some things in depth about photogra phy, I found a u se for the macro photography b utton. However, we re no t
really doing macro photography here.
Macro photography is taking pictures of tiny little things, and then blowing them up to a large size. Ever seen a picture of a
small bug, and yet the small bug looks really big? That is macro photography. I guess in a way this is a blowing up of a page
with pixels, resolution, zoom, etc.. but not really in some sense. Macro photography in an old definition is taking something
smaller than the size of film and then making it look really big.
III. Copy Stand
Mega used a tripod. I assume he did that to be resourceful with present materials. Mega did eventually get a copy stand.
Some tripods can be manipulated with its assembly to form a copy stand; Redirecting the assembly and parts.. Mega used
ropes and ties on the legs, I d on t mean manipulating the assembly like that.. His way with the tripod was not the best in my
opinion.
The copy stand is a lot more effective than using a tripod that is slanted and tied down. I made a copy stand because I
understood some things about photography.
The copy stand is used in macro photography for taking pictures of still materials. The book in this situation is a still material.
It stays still, hopefully. A person does not necessarily need to duct tape the book down as suggested. All a person has to do is
be delicate, take his or her time, and turn pages without tugging. This takes practice, but things work out if you want to
preserve the decency of a book.
I decided to do the DIY PVC copy stand found at [csigizmos.com]. This copy stand was made of PVC. One of the problems I
came across was the length of my book described in this document later on. I tweaked some of the designs of the author in
the website. Another thing I found was a problem with the spacers for the T connector that is slipped over the shaft to be
brought up and down. I believe the csigizmos website has some typo when it comes to the T connector put over the shaft.
After I studied the design for a while, I came to insight that, no drilling was required for this project. The idea of holding the T
connector with some long screw was unnecessary.
Step 2 - To build the camera mount and shaft, the following pieces are required:
1 PVC T with 3/4 out
Here s what I did .
I thoug ht, your spacer description stuff is wrong, this isn t working. WTF?
So I wa s in my ba sement with a mite r saw. I looked at the end ca ps and though t: Hey, those things co ver a tube . What
if I were to cut off the end and make it completely hollow so it slips over the tube?
I was nt stupid with the miter saw, so I took a pipe , put the end cap o n it, held the endcap s e nding part und er the m iter saw
and cut it off.
I looked at the endcap and than I tried slipping it over the tube up and down a few times to really see if my idea of using it as
a spacer would work. It did.
So I took that thing to a bench g rinder to smooth it out, which I recomme nd you don t do.
The jagged ends usually give it a roughness and stubbornness when connected to something.
After I made on e spacer, I inserted it into on side of the T-connector. It fit, also , it did n t come out. I tugg ed pretty hard and
then gave up. Lucky me.
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9899/dscf39037tn.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=dscf39037tn.jpg)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1048/dscf39049sh.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=dscf39049sh.jpg)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2952/dscf39056cx.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=dscf39056cx.jpg)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5761/dscf39074ao.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=dscf39074ao.jpg)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9808/dscf39089qx.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=dscf39089qx.jpg)
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/5295/dscf39093ce.th.jpg (http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf39093ce.jpg)
On a side note: In all my years, I have never clicked on more ads accidentally any other site than imageshack.us. Those
motherfuckers perfected the accidental click. Damn them. They use ingenious ad positioning.
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1976/dscf39103nn.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=dscf39103nn.jpg)
Although it seems like a n ice copy stand, it wasn t the sturdiest.
With some types of copy stands, there is a known evil called camera shake.
I ve read ma ny forums, b oards, etc. Most pe ople seem to find camera s hake a bitch.
I m no t one for being a textbook so Ill quote a definition.
Movement of camera caused by unsteady hold or support, vibration, etc., leading, particularly at slower shutter speeds, to a
blurred image on the film. It is a major cause of un-sharp pictures, especially with long focus lenses. www.mir.com.my/rb/
photography/glossary/terms_c.htm
The unwanted movement passed along to your camera by involuntary hand and body tremors, it's a major cause of unsharp
pictures. www.frommers.com/tips/photography/article.cfm
Hence the importance of the term and what comes with it: Unsharp pictures and blur.
Not something you want to encounter when you are trying to study a read material. Especially a book material you are
composing in digital format.
Now, the reason I get camera shake from my copy stand is because it is a piece of crap.
That being said , Why is it a piece of crap?
1. It s p lastic (pvc)
PVC: A plastic made from the gaseous chemical vinyl chloride.
Pla stics are nice , no dou bt. PVC do e s n t break very easily eithe r. It is also very easy to cut a nd assemble. To tell you th e
truth, if you wanted to take apart and assemble a copy stand that is lightweight and portable, this would be your best bet. I
would probably choose nothing better at the moment in terms of transporting from one place to another to do reprographic
work than a PVC copy stand. Other things are too bulky and heavy. A person with experimental PVC knowledge can grab
connectors and other things to build up the stand. The only part I don't think a person can manipulate is the shaft. I'm sure
one could cut it down, and perhaps use connectors. It would take some time and practice to get right.
S o m e p e o p l e h a v e s u g g e s t e d some other $400 portable copystand with digica m. However, tha t thing is o nly about 3MP. It s
nice and portable. I lost th e the link, but it is a relatively new device. The problem is the MP ra ting. I would not use 3MP; I m
sure others wouldn t either.
PVC Copy Stand

Pros- Light, doesn t break eas y, easy to build
Cons- Shakes easily, takes time to master as a tool, all parts must be glued.
Sad thing is all parts must be glued. There is a special part, yet I forgot where on the Internet I found it. It is a specialty part.
It would be used at the point between the shaft and the parts extending out from the T connector.
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/1157/untitled8fs1.th.png (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled8fs1.png)
With this attachment, a person could lay a brick on the part that PVC base tube that extends backwards from the connector.
By doing that, the brick and tube take on the weight of the camera. Thus, the stand does not fall under the weight of the
camera . The specialty part is o n the Internet, I don t kno w where.
The greatest con is the camera shake.

I spoke to some people and they told me to make the same thing out of copper. Something I plan on doing is to build a
replica out of copper.
I assume to use copper would mean the specialty part would not be needed. Copper is kind of heavy.
With the sturdiness created by the copper, the camera shake would be reduced, thus obtaining a sharper image.
Many p eople recommen d buying a cop y stand with lig hts. Matter of fact, light plays into usin g a copy stand a lot of factors
pla y in light, came ra sha ke, glare, etc.. but I m g o ing to focus on components and parts of a copy stan d for now.
Many cop y stands come with ligh ts. These are the mo re expensive copy stands. I m chea p, therefore I did nt buy a light for
my copy stand. I could probably MacGyver something up using wiring, PVC, b atterie s, etc., but I didn t.
If you would like to buy a copy stand, it is suggested you buy four lights. Some people can be happy with two, I suggest four.
Here is why:
2 lights cover part of the book to a degree. Sometimes it can cover the whole book, while at other times, light from two lights
may be more intense and fade out on parts of the book.

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/8633/lights6ke.th.png (http://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lights6ke.png)
That s the bes t Im g o ona do it folks. I ve typed this whole damn th ing up twice, lost it once. Th is one s in MS Word. You can
buy lights for a copy stand, or you ca n go outside , Ill cover th at in the next section .
Besides the lights being a factor, the elevation of a bought copy stand can be a problem. To solve this problem, find an
equal base of elevation. You see, when you have a DIY copy stand without a board you can lay a book flat on the table.
The DIY PVC copy stand b ase can be extended, tweaked, e tc. With a bought copy stand, m ost come with a board, few don t.
Those that don t--do not seem to have enoug h space to layout both pages of a b ook.
Testrite CS-7 Mini Copy Stand

Link: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?
O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=53768&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation
=Dimensions=
15.75 x 18.75" baseboard; 26" vertical post
I have a book with pages closed that is 11.5 x 9.5 in

Opened up, that book is 19 wide.
|18.75-19| = .25
I need .25 inches more.
Either way, that base is not large enough for my book to open completely. Another important factor to remember is that the
camera lens points directly d own at the mid dle of book, th is is important for cropping pictu res. If you don t kno w what
cropping is, I suggest you find out. I m no t going to teach digital man ipulation.
If a person does two pages at once, you could probably cut down photographing a book into 2 hours. Cropping plus manual
cropping into 1 hour. Then doing all th e other file resizing a nd turn it into (.pdf) in 3-4 hours; I ve got an a verage of 5 hours.
That B and H copy stand would not be proper for this project.
Others are more proper--many seem unnecessary.
== Testrite CS-1 Copy Stand==
- http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?
O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=53758&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation
This one has a nice boa rd bas e. The shaft and bas e seem sturdy, ho wever, I m no t sure if the components are better than
copper.
(Plastic base and a metal shaft) vs. (pure copper copy stand).
I have not tested the testire, but I thought about buying it.
Baseboard Size=14 x 19"

Book= 11 x 9.5
Looking at the picture, it is deceiving. I believe the base of the copy stand is shorter in width than the length going towards
the shaft. Thus, elevation on both sides to hold a large book would be needed. It seems somewhat sturdy, but this is where a
DIY copy stand dominates over a bought one.
DIY is just cheaper, and can be customized when you learn what you are doing.
I spe nt about $12 U.S. on the PVC copy stand. I shouldn t have gone to hom e depot for PVC materials, they make
s o m e o n e b uy in bulk. If you can , go to some mom and pop s hop, or some store that s b een around for a ges th at offers
PVC. They will be more willing to cut up the PVC for you. Home Depot here will only sell the whole 10 foot pipe. I asked for a
shorter piece, they said I had to pay fo r the whole thing. I thought, Well I might screw up. I did once, but a lot o f left o ver
PVC (not enough for a second make) made me feel I wasted money. It would have been better to go to a local community
hardware and plumbing store.
In my eyes DIY is better. I don t kno w what Mega has. Ca re to s how and tell Meg a?
The greatest parts of DIY is that on is able to layout a whole book without having parts off the edge of a board.
In my DIY copy stand, there is no board. The book is on a table and the copy stand is on the table. The lens can be pointed
directly towards the center of the book to get a snapshot of both pages at once.
In a bought copy stand as shown, the positioning of a book can be a bit more complex. Sometimes the copy stand itself will
interfere with the positioning of the book. At times, you may not be able to center the camera lens directly in the center of the
book. Will some adjustments these may be overcome.
A good sturdy copy stand is best for getting rid of camera shake.
Something I also read about using a cop y stand is this
If you are photographing an image printed on thin paper where the print from the opposite side of the page is showing thru,
put a piece of black paper behind the page to "absorb" the print shadows.
IV. Lighting
Lighting was a bitch. I will straight out say that lighting is a mother fucker and I don t wan t to sp end days ever aga in trying to
figure out why the hell there is glare on my book. I tried all different areas around my basement. I even dared to grab a piece
of Styrofoam, put a large piece on my sink, and then lay my book and copy stand over it, because I thought I would get a
greater intensity of light to cover the whole page, thus getting rid of glare.
You see I ha d a few problems with lighting . My basement h ad the b est lighting in the hous e for white light. I use fluo rescent
lights in the basement: Two tubes in one of those long white metallic holders without the lights being covered by a plastic
shield.
I ove rtime thought intensity of light was the pro blem. I didn t kno w how to solve it. I used a large , dirty see-th rough ta rp to
dull the light. It dulled the light, but glare still existed. I looked at the light bulbs. I moved my hand from the glare and use
eyesight trigo nometry to figure out where the glare was coming from. It was coming from the ang le of the tube, which an gled
towards the book. I then used a bed sheet to cover the light in hopes that the glare from this angled light would cease.
That didn t do much at all. It dulled the light once more, but the glare still existed. I could not figure wha t the hell was going
on.
Glare occurs gre atest when indoor overhead lights are used. I ca nt seem to source that, but I read it. Mega u s e d s o m e
halogen lights, I wanted to buy some, but spending $100 USD, was not in my budget plan. I did not really want to go over
$400.
It doesn t matter that I u sed a sheet to hug the metallic light fixture. What do es ma tter thou gh, is the idea of a soft b ox.
I noticed early on that if my body cast a shadow over the book, the image shot was without glare. After this I knocked up the
EV settings: each time going a bit higher. The gray somewhat became more white. However, there were negative side-effects
with raising the EV. The EV eventually created a white washout on the text. Thus blotches of bright white covered the text
making it unreadable. There was no way I could win using a bodily shadow and manipulation of EV indoors.
Shadow seemed to have taken out the glare. Shadow does take out the glare, but it makes the page gray. I connected the
white bedsheet with clips to areas around the book to cast a shadow while dulling the light. This often created better effects,
however the page digital image when uploaded, looked very gray because lighting was sacrificed for reducing glare. I tried EV
in these situations as before, yet the washout still happened.
Doing indoor lighting just did not work.
Turn off overhead ceiling lighting (eliminates glare).

http://web.utk.edu/~isc/services/copy_stand.html
Simply put, if you don t have so me good 45 degree lights, don t bother using indoor lighting. People are said to turn off
overhead lights and using a copy stand lighting system: these are for best results.
If a page does not have glare using overhead lights, you might be able to do the process just fine. Lucky you!
Often with regular 60 watt white light bulbs (the average type people buy to screw in a lamp) will create a yellow page look.
However, the lighting conditions with that type of light seem a lot better than fluorescent overhead lighting. The casting of a
shadow in the yellowish light seems to have better results.
However, I didn t wan t a yellowish page and I didn t wan t a gla re on my page .
So I decided once more to read tons of more material on the web. I asked photographers, obtained more information. A
person told a person who told me.. more information.
- Taking Photos of Reflective Objects (http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/reflect.htm)

- Copy stand photography made simple (http://www.arthistory-archaeology.umd.edu/VRC/Copystand/CopyStand.html)
The idea of polarization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarization) is the key concept when it comes to lighting. This is
something I overlooked for the longest time. Yet, when I fully understood this concept, everything became clear.
There is a bunch of physics mumbo-jumbo. The most important thing to remember is that when the correct polarization is
used, glare is diminished.
The sun gives bright light on a clear day. On a clear day with no clouds, there is no polarization.
On a cloudy day, there is polarization. Clouds create a polarizing effect on the sun. Therefore, on a cloudy day, there will be
little to no glare on a page.
Clouds are like the body casting a shadow I noticed. Clouds cast a shadow over a lot of things.
This is why I ve learne d that indoor lighting is use less if you re be ing fru gal. Outdo or lighting is th e best on a clo udy day with
plenty of light. The better thing about using the sun is the full spectrum of colors. The sun gives off white light--other lights
are artificial.
The page results were much better than expected. After doing so many experiments in different lighting environments, I can
now figure out what is bright and what is dark. I bet I could make a masterpiece of art using Chiaroscuro.
Here s the other nice part about u sing outdoor ligh t in clo udy weather. I was able to knock up the EV setting a few n otches.
The pages were so much better.
Indoor:
I held the sheet onto the lights with those little purse-type clip things.
http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/276/dscf25841wj.th.jpg (http://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=dscf25841wj.jpg)
I decided to use 2 x 4s to level everything out.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1065/dscf30373lz.th.jpg (http://img51.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf30373lz.jpg)
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/4843/dscf30390lt.th.jpg (http://img51.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf30390lt.jpg)
-- This is where I used the glass to flatten the page, but that did me no good at all.
-- Therefore I used a wood assembly of 2x4 technology. The farthest left plank helped me keep things aligned. Alignment is
important.
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/6492/dscf30424yz.th.jpg (http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=dscf30424yz.jpg)
This is good
http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/2949/0057yy.th.jpg (http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0057yy.jpg)
= As I knocked up the EV, things became worse. =
This is bad
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/433/4612hq.th.jpg (http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4612hq.jpg)
(the lower-left corner. Text under The Goal of Sustainable Development)

This is worse
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3235/adscf34929uv.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=adscf34929uv.jpg)
Outdoor:
"Nope." That didn't work.

http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/417/dscf38835gp.th.jpg (http://img487.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=dscf38835gp.jpg)
Then I tried it without the glass--I uploaded a few pictures to my laptop.

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2607/dscf38862pe.th.jpg (http://img63.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf38862pe.jpg)
I messed with the exposure value (EV) outside and things became better.
"The sun is like a natural softbox. 95% efficiency for 5% the cost."
D o n t go through the same hassles of lighting as I did. Us e outdoor lig ht. Set u p a plastic sheet all over if it is snowing. I
wouldn t suggest doing this in the rain the b ook wou ld get wet.
V. Programs
Multiple programs were downloaded and put on a burnable data DVD.

To b ypass having to register, some people reformat wip e their computer and re install windows.
When people load programs, things are put into registry and a date is set for expiration of the program, and yada yada.
Wiping the computer clears registry and much more.
It's only illegal if you crack it. lmfao har har. I think ever since I was trying to figure out that google book bypass they upped
security.
I suggest before wiping the computer and reinstalling programs for reuse, you make a backup of everything on your
computer.
Backup s are always goo d even if you aren t doing this.
- namewiz (http://www.softbytelabs.com/Frames.html?f1=Banner.html&f2=NameWiz/index.html)
- Eyebatch (batch post-image processing)

- Photoelf (fine-tuning)
- Image Export (PDF Edition) (http://www.rinasoft.com/iepdf.htm) (Make PDF files)
I fucking love eyebatch.
Photoelf is good for fine-tuning and cropping pages.
Image Export is so fucking simple, only an idiot would not be able to figure it out.

Oh, and I also forgot to add.
Since blur at times can be a problem, I found something I could do to prevent having to take pictures of all pages once more.
I found that about 1 of 16 pages would be bad at times. I wouldn't know which page, the statistics of it all is far from me.
I did learn how to deal with this, though.
What I did was I took snapshots of the same page twice.

When I went through the images, I deleted the bad and kept the good.
You could just use a timer.. but that takes way too long.
Even then, you never know if it will or will not blur.
Also, I suggest if a person clumsily knocks his or her book and/or copy stand out of position, then he or she immediately
uploads all files to a folder on the computer.
I like to make individual folders.
Take 1
take 2
take 3.
Whenever I mess-up or knock something out of place I'll upload what I have to a seperate folder. I crop all images in that
folder. I DO NOT do a batchcrop on ALL IMAGES IN ALL FOLDERS at the same time. Just IMAGES IN ONE FOLDER; that way I
keep things seperated.
Another thing I forgot to add in was about the PVC copy stand I made. I cut up various lengths up tube that extend from the
mount. I found that gave me a better ability to change the copy stand for the various positioning requirements of a book. DIY
copy stands seem a lot better than ones bought to me.
Also, for my camera, I have this autofocus feature. If you don't have one, I suggest you learn a lot more about autofocus and
get a camera that has it.
From what I read of others when doing this outside, it is best to have your back to the light. Although this casts a shadow over
the book, I recommend you do this only if your copystand casts a shadow over the book first.
Simply put, if you notice there is a shadow from the copy stand on your book, the current position of the sun at that time of
day is causing a shadow to cast on your book. You can either find some other place outside to work, or stand with your back to
the sun.
Together, if a person uses a DIY copystand, a knife for cutting PVC, and a broken lcd 5-6MP digicam, all things should cost
less than $100. Plug in the expansion digital storage card and things go up.. but I'm sure you could ebay that also..
If the digital camera has a hook-up for tv connection, than the LCD screen won't be needed very much. Using a 13 inch TV for
viewing things on the camera is a lot better than an LCD screen; This gives a picture picture and a more real result. Also, if
you don't have an A/V part on your TV, look into RF modulators.
I believe that publishers purposely use a certain type of paper for putting out books these days so people like me will have a
hell of a time figuring how to get rid of glare.
The difference was that I was doing a lot of color copying. I didn't do just black and white. I haven't figured out the megabyte
resize.
Also, Mega if you read this last line. If you would be willing to, how were you able to speed up the whole process of taking
snapshots of the book so quickly? I assume I'm doing something wrong if you can do a book in about an hour and it takes
me 3-4 hours.
I assume it is the camera's processing and memory retaining speed. That may be why a more expensive camera is worth
getting?
My slow speed may be effected by taking one page at a time and not two at once. In other words, by not taking a picture of
page 100 and 101 at once and then cropping the same picture, exporting evens to a "even" folder, then doing another crop
on the original and sending odds to an "odd" folder.
Time certainly would be cut by doing that. I assume if I did two pages at once instead of two, yeah I would probably spend
about an hour compiling. I'm sure the anti-reflective glass would be of great importance for making both pages stay flat. On
my first outside page with the glass, I used the flash. I'm sure if I didn't use the flash there wouldn't have been a large
square of washout. Of course, the camera and copy stand mount tube showed. This is where a special type of glass would
come in most likely.
Thing to consider: I did not OCR any of my books. I found that some OCR just can not figure out biology words. After
mastering this process, though, I intend to try doing the OCR process again to see if I can OCR things. Sometimes when the
text looked dull on the pages, I would use eyebatch to sharpen the pages.
I should have incorporated all these other random thoughts into the document.. But I remember another thing I came across.
Someone cynically cited how using outdoor light might become a seasonal activity. I read from some people that doing this
can be done inside, using light from the sun. This being said, a person sets up the copy stand near a window. The light comes
in through the window and if the room's overhead lights are off, the only light source coming in will be from the sun outside. I
haven't tried this; it may work on a cloudy day, maybe not. It may work on a clear day better, maybe not.
I used a miter saw for most of my cutting. You could use a kitchen knife with teeth if you want to be very, very frugal. Most
people tell others to use a hacksaw. I used the miter saw for ease; zipped right through the pvc tubing. I would suggest you
don't grind/sand down any of the parts unless you are going to glue them in. It only cost about $12 USD to make the PVC
copy stand, don't know if I mentioned that. The drilling was not necessary when I figured out that cool hack to the design.
Using the cut-up endcap as a spacer allowed the mount to have a very snug fit over the pvc copy stand. Notice the drilled
holes were never finished; they were also in disarray.
The greatest summary would have to be like this:
Lighting = $0 USD
Camera = (Bought:$230 ; eBay:$60)
Copy stand = (Bought/eBay:$50+ ; DIY:$12)
RF Modulator = (Bought:$25 ; eBay $15)
Memory Card (Bought:$30+ ; eBay:$27)
______________________________
$114 USD (eBayed)
if RF modulator not needed: $99 USD

Without RF mod. and memory addition: $72
* T.V. price not included. Come on, most people have a television!
I spent over $300 USD buying everything new. A person doesn't even need a camera with a flash when he or she uses the
sun. If I could go back in time and give myself this document, I would have saved about $200 US dollars. That buys a lot of
asian buffet. That certainly cuts the costs Megalomania paid: About $1000? I also did not cover the topic of a softbox. I did
not go into the research of it, and it may be of value to some. Softboxes are for doing indoor work. If you live alaska, or
some other region where it is dark 6 months out of the year, you're going to have more trouble than I. Good luck!
After people read all of this, they have megalomania's guide with a lot of other input from people at roguesci. My struggle with
this was primarily trial and error. I didn't understand a lot of things, nor did I want to spend a lot of money. However, I hope
that after people have read this, they'll know a lot more.
I'll leave you with this last note... (http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4725/allyourbase3pa.jpg)
megalomania March 22nd, 2006, 10:16 PM

That is very, very quality and practical information there, Kamisama. I have been revising my tutorial over the last few
months, and it is good to see you have made some of the same observations I have.
I use a very low angle for my lights to avoid the glare problem as I too have encountered it. I pretty much have them angled
sideways. I also keep a pen and paper handy for when I move the camera. I take note of the particular images filename
whenever I make a change so that when I do my post editing I can stop at that image. Thats the same as putting the files in
separate folders.
I believe that no matter how careful you are, simply turning the pages will slightly move the book. When batch processing this
makes it harder for everything to conform, and that makes editing take longer. Of course, that all depends on how close you
want to crop your margins. If you have a nice wide margin, you can crop with lower precision. I dont batch crop more than 40-
50 images at a time because I need to check, just to be sure, that everything is lined up. Thats because of that margin crawl
I talk about. That, and the fact the pages get farther and farther away with each turn of the page, thus affecting document
size. What is good cropping for page 1 is not necessarily good for page 83, etc.
I actually did buy a remote control for my camera. Not only do I completely avoid camera shake, but it frees up my other hand
to hold down the book when needed. My remote only needs one finger to press the button.
I have a Testrite CS-3 copy stand with the 23/44 copy lights. See it in action at http://www.bkaphoto.com/detail.asp?
section=Copying%20Equipment&cat=Copy%20Stands&product=TECS3 I did not pay nearly as much as the price on that
website, that is just as good a picture as I could find, but it still set me back some money. The CS-3 has a very sturdy wooden
base with alignment marks on it, and a steel shaft with an adjustable camera holder. The lights are just ordinary floods
pointing at a very low angle, or rather high angle if you are counting in degrees.
Most cameras do not come with an AC adapter, and rare is the one that does. Almost all cameras have an aftermarket
adapter that will be cheaper than the one sold by the manufacturer. B&H Photo is a highly respected photography supplier with
decent prices, not always the best prices mind you. The photography field is plagued with more than its fair share of scammers
who advertise equipment at really cheap prices, but fail to deliver unless you buy super overpriced accessories. Classic bait
and switch. Finding a fair and respected photography equipment dealer is hard. Before buying, check out the company on
resellerratings.com. If you dont see them listed, dont buy as they are probably a fly by night. Those scammers change their
names every few months once their reputations are burned out. I bought my camera from Dell (yes, the computer vendor),
the lens and external flash from B&H, and the stand from ebay.
A more expensive camera lacks any kind of shutter lag and recycle time. My speed is limited only by the time it takes me to
turn the pages. I have never tried it yet, but the documentation says my camera can take 8 shots in one second on burst
mode.
I had typed this up last week, but my computer crashed and I thought I already submitted the post. My computer crashes
every several minutes nowadays due to some obscure heat issue. Good thing for Word's document recovery feature...
Kamisama April 6th, 2006, 10:22 PM

***message deleted***



The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > R apid prototyping
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Jacks Complete D e c e m ber 12th, 2005, 08:03 PM

Take a look at http://www.we-m a k e - m o n e y - n o t - a r t . c o m /archives/007614.php
Rapid prototyping is an up-and-coming technology. Sintered metal system s can produce steel blocks with 7 0% of th e strength
of real cast steels at the m o m ent, plastic parts that are im a g i n a b l e b u t i m possible to m ake are a few m inu tes from creation,
and no-one can tell what you are m aking from the basic feedsto cks!
This is the future, m y friends. It will be like the m icrowave in a few more years. Just download the plan for whatever you want,
tweak it a bit, then hit print, and by m orning you will have a functional machine in full 3D to do with as you see fit.
festergrump D e c e m ber 13th, 2005, 07:24 AM

Most excellent! I saw something very sim ilar to this but on a mu ch larger scale in a Popular Science mag some tim e b a c k .
They were discussing the future possib ilities of using a crane size and shaped printer to print out h ouses... com plete with wiring
a n d p l u m bing intact! Now THAT's sim ply awesom e! :D
Tim e for m e to buff up on my 3-D Autocad skills...
Kamisama D e c e m ber 14th, 2005, 12:50 AM

I don't think the crane sized idea thing will com e in for the next 30 years. That's when the i d e a o f t h e a u t o m atic built house
started to com e in. Things sta rted to g et industrialized m ore.
Other than that, the plastic gun looks of interest. I'd like to see a plastric grenade or som e other interestin g m aterial.
L o o k s g o o d , I h a v e n ' t b e e n i n t o t h e C A D s c e n e f o r m any, many years. This does a lot better than the subtractive m e t h o d I
c a n a s s u m e though. Because resources aren't really wasted. You can hit stop and you save powder/liquid.
W ith the subtractive there was a brick and you lost the brick if you f'd up. Not the funnest thing when working on som e really
c o m p l e x s t u f f a n d y o u d o n ' t h ave a lot of m oney to screw around.

I don't think the crane sized idea thing will com e in for the next 30 years.It's here already. There is a U K house builder that
does it. The whole thing is accurate to a few m m , all the ducts are there, etc. and the plumbing and wiring is finished on site ,
then the bricks are put round the outside. All fully custom ised, e ven the wallpaper is added before the house is built!
L o o k s g o o d , I h a v e n ' t b e e n i n t o t h e C A D s c e n e f o r m any, many years. This does a lot better than the subtractive m e t h o d I
c a n a s s u m e though. Because resources aren't really wasted. You can hit stop and you save powder/liquid.
W ith the subtractive there was a brick and you lost the brick if you f'd up. Not the funnest thing when working on som e really
c o m p l e x s t u f f a n d y o u d o n ' t h ave a lot of m oney to screw around.
Yup. And it d oesn't have to be plastic, it can be aluminium or steel! I've seen a chess set with the castles as clear resin with
two spiral staircases inside, co m p l e x a n d i m possible to m ake any other way, m obius strips, adjustable spanners, small
m achines, etc.
Funny thing is, the co mplex hollows inside actually furth er decrease the manufacturing cost!
And it all runs right off the screen, so no messing about.
festergrump D e c e m ber 17th, 2005, 12:24 AM

W ell, here's som e thought regarding the printing out of the firearm s:
If one were to design a gun with the 3-D software, publish it online, and everyone with access to one of these printe rs
interested were to print one out exactly as was downloaded... W hat would this do to forensic investigations of homicides if guns
printed in this fashion were used? W ould the ballistics be identical if the sam e brand or even batch of am m o was used?
Also, would these printers be federally regulated to waterm ark every product printed by ea ch individual m achine? W o u l d t h e
printing machines themselves be only available to those who had what the governm ents of the world would deem a "legitim a t e
need"? Lets face the fact that here in the USA the government feels that 'we the people' aren't rea dy for ce rtain technologies
they've been having fun with in Japan for nearly a decade, now (namely because the governm ent here hasn't found an
efficient way to mandate, control, regulate, or tax them).
W hile this technology is a great step in the right direction for m ankind, it is such a thorn in the side to those who wish to
m aintain con trol over us free thinking people. I highly doubt this technology will find it's way over here in the US (or the UK) to
every Tom , Dick, or Harry with some cash unless sm u g g l e d i n , a n d t h e n p o s s e s s i o n o f a d e v i c e l i k e t h i s m ight carry a severe
penalty (printer + design + X am ount of printing substrate = "intent to distibute" sort of thing) without prior authorization fro m
government agencies with severe proctol vision disorder (their fucking he ads up their own asses).
Here's hoping, though. I'd love to m ess about with one for a while...
[EDIT: Don't get me wrong. I do still have a m ajor thum bs up fo r the technology but I don't see us getting ahold of it on a
level where any of us here will be able to use it as we see fit. W e'd be end users of the "product" at best, I think.]
Kamisama D e c e m ber 17th, 2005, 03:02 AM

ooh copycat weaponry.. such a neat idea. this gives me "good" ideas. :D
To tell you the truth, one of m y teachers a few years ba ck, a lon g tim e a g o . . m a y b e 7 y e a r s a g o .
T h e y b r o u g h t i n a v i d e o a b o u t s o m e g o v e r n m e nt agencies and the stuff inside th eir buildings.
I believe one was attributed to the FBI and how they have sound proof rooms, technology that could pick out voices from
scram bled sound, etc etc.
From what I remem ber was that they also had this additive technology that, they said could build a weapon in about 24 hours.

W ell, it's now been proven that firearm s bullet tests are bad science. Lea d m elts can vary between bullet batches from the
s a m e ladle, while the batches weeks or years later can be identical. Modern Glock s are so sim ilar that the rifling marks are
iden tical, in the sam e way as m ost oth er types of mass produced barrel.
I see no reason why these couldn't be as precise.
As for regulation, yes, I can see that. It would destroy our economies, though, since we would be buying everything in, while
the "free world" m a d e a n d i n n ovated and paid next to nothing for it all.
Building bit by bit, though, you could b uild a tank or war robot over a few m onths, one clip together 12" length at a tim e. No
one could tell what it was, eith er, until all the parts cam e together. Or the reverse - build an "organ" which you then cut up later
to get 24 assorted barrels!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Rogue Servers
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nbk2000 January 28th, 2006, 01:44 AM

Found an interesting article on the construction of a 'stealth' fileserver that resides inside a modified UPS casing.
Hmmm....trying to think of how many public libraries, universities, and businesses have static IP's with broadband connections, and how hard would it be to give them a free
UPS? ;)
http://www.inventgeek.com/Projects/projectsilver/projectsilver.aspx
Naturally prices will have to come down a bit more before they become disposable, but I think it's possible that, one day, RS.org could exist not on any one server that can be
shut down, but on a TOR'ified distributed network of stealth servers around the world.
Members would run a client application that would let them view and post, with the changes being distributed on an ad hoc basis to the various servers around the world.
Other possibilities are VoIP phones, since they require a broadband connection. Hell, maybe one day microwave ovens and refrigerators could server as RS servers (since
everything is getting wired nowadays) having had modified chips installed at the factory by a member. :)
Try shutting THAT down JBTs! :p
I've seen HTML servers on a chip that cost about $5 that could be hooked up to payphone lines and used as dial-up hosts. Slow as fuck, but any port in a storm, and could
serve as a means of getting the log-in info for a faster node of the RS blacknet.
bipolar January 28th, 2006, 05:37 PM

good idea.
Also check out i2p.net they have an anonymous network that is different from most others, it allows a host to run any type of server with a .i2p domain running the i2p
software yet remain anonymous then anyone else running the i2p software just points their proxy settings to their local host and it will connect to .12p domains the the secure
anonymous network. They already have it working. It is still slow, they say all they need are lots of users in the system to boost anonimity and speed when it is officially ready
for release.
Also as network seperate from the internet there is FIDOnet(google it) which is a modem based network independant from the internet for sending email messages.
Ive been reading more about Packet Radio and PSK(phased key shifting) for data modes over ameteur radio. With this new PSK method you just connect a sound card on a
computer to a transceiver(or scanner just to receive) and with just a 5 watt transmitter(like a handheld one) you can transmit ascii text messages 200-300 miles easily. if you
use directional antennas and terrain masking and other radio security methods you can remain untracable.
You could also set up some kind of encryption system(which is illegal in the US). Of course you wouldnt want to register for a ham license. But it would be possible to create
some kind of relaying network to distibute information even in a SHTF scenario untracably
PSK is suppost to be pretty resistant to jamming also.
Definently something to look into.
FUTI February 2nd, 2006, 02:23 PM

I have trouble to reply to this thread so I will try to post just this sentence and if it goes through do and edit after.
Good Lord it worked.

to NBK2000: awesome link as always. Just curious how did you find it? Did you search for lockpicking tool or server since both thing can be found on that site, or that spy
scandal in Russia ring your bell.
to bipolar: I like the packet radio idea. I read some thing about it in the past but gained impresion it is slow as hell. For buletin board type forum would be OK, or maybe some
version of crude text-based page viewable under Lynx. What about NBK server mounted on mobile platform with mobile phone hooked up to it. Conection would be over PC to
phone program. Kewlish style scrambling would be merging usable transferable data with some voice file generated with text-to-voice program (use Bible for example as text
file;)) with some program. Just dial the phone to get the forum if its down! PSK is beyond my knowledge so I take your word it is better..

I've read an idea for a micro-sat system that does roughly this.
You launch a solar-powered microsat over the heads of everyone, and it acts as a server system for whatever you wish to put on it. Obviously, since it is directly overhead
some of the time, it will always be there, but not, due to orbital mechanics. This is why you use a network, to ensure coverage. They could each transmit on a different
frequency, or range of frequencies, including visible light or IR, and stay in a RAID network through updates whenever they had line of sight to one another. Data uplinks would
be more tricky, of course, but the majority of data would be sent up on the disks beforehand, to prevent the possibility of the CIA remotely turning the whole system off!
Sightly more expensive than subverting a regular household utensil/appliance, though.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Active demonstration
resistance ideas
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As the crackdown seems to have started in the UK (I live in a police state that has never been seen before! Hitler didn't have
the powers Tony the cunt has now.) and I was reading about the abuse of powers that the police can legally use today.
Section 60 means that the police have the power to "detain a group they believe will become violent". This means they can
arrest and legally harass anyone they feel like. Of course, if they do this, the group may well become violent (as they are
under attack) and so the police actions can be freely scaled up.
None are safe - "Until now, successive administrations have pledged that there should be no tapping "whatsoever" of MPs'
phones, and that they would be told if it was necessary to breach the ban.
But that convention - known as the Wilson Doctrine, after Harold Wilson, the prime minister who introduced it - is to be
abandoned in an expansion of MI5 powers following the London bombings."
For far more on the destruction of UK civil rights, see http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/cat_civil_libertyregulation.html
So, how do we deal with this? I know they will come for me one day soon. But how can a group of protesters, forced into a
corner to be searched and videoed one by one, deal with this farce called "law"?
One idea for beating the police lines would be to use some of the tactics back on the police themselves. It has happened for
years that when teargas is used, the canisters get thrown back at the police. They now use designs where that won't work,
because they get hot, ot they disintegrate, or they are fired further than they can be thrown. However, many end up in buckets
of water, or are picked up by a shirt or towel.
Since the police are tending to harrass/search/photograph protesters on route to events (talk about a chilling effect!) any
ideas need to involve the use of things freely available, or at least easily transported and retained during a police search.
Hence opening up with an Uzi or throwing petrol bombs is not the answer here. Avoidance of camera recognition would also be
great, but may be beyond the pale. The police agressively film demos, and use this evidence later in court. Throw a bottle,
and you are likely to be a snatch target. Throw a petrol bomb, and you will be!
As a starter for ten, to punch an effective hole through a Nazi blockade line, dumpsters have been used as rams. Today, the
police will take the bins away, as easily as they snatch the targets they want from the rally. However, the use of a pre-prepared
motor vehicle to ram the police lines would allow the protestors to escape captivity. Said vehicle could even be remote
controlled. Yes, you will be a target, but at least you will be mobile, rather than contained. (And you might hit a few of them
too ;-) )
Sound makers, such as the cheap rape alarms found in the shops now, could be used as a sonic weapon. A few dozen of
these thrown at the police lines will certainly upset them a bit. A simple modification to prevent them being killed by stamping
or the impact of hitting the ground would be good. A sharp bit of steel would work.
What else have you got?
TreverSlyFox February 15th, 2006, 07:10 AM

Ok, if your just talking busting up the piggy lines try this:
Snatch a fire hose from an older building, newer buildings with a sprinkler system won't have a fire hose station. You'll need a
big adjustible spanner to unhook the hose but the fitting should fit any street fire plug. Most fire hose in the US is 50' long but
the hose in buildings may be shorter. The hose should be 2" or whatever the Brit equivlent is. You'll be suprised what a 2"
hose can do and the force it has. You should be able to take a man off his feet at 100' - 150' (or a line of men).
You'll need 3 people to work the whole deal though. 1 man to hook up the hose to the fire plug and turn the valve on/off and
2 men to man the hose. 1 man won't be able to handle the hose with full pressure. Charge the hose SLOWLY, opening the
valve a little at a time until it's fully open. If the guy opening the valve opens it all at once the men on the end of the hose
will go down and the hose will be flying around loose, get hit in the head with that nozzel and it's lights out.
You'll be in camera range so I suggest full face helmets, you might be able to knock the camera guy down but don't rely on it.
Even if they catch you the most you did was spray the piggys with water so the charges shouldn't be to bad. I'd steal the hose
in another town too if possible and if you can find a place, practice with it before hand.
Hobbit Porn February 16th, 2006, 11:19 PM

I've always wondered if the roach bombs you buy to fumigate rooms would have much affect?
Crowds often tend to disperse when tear gas is used, so I wonder if the police would act the same way if cans of visible gas
came hurtling at them.
I've heard rumours that the contents of the cans are no longer flammable due to safety measures. I have never bothered to
check, I know it wasn't that case a couple of years ago when I had to use one in my bedroom, but I haven't bothered to check
them again.
If the contents are flammable, would it be possible to use this aswell? Say you throw a couple out, let them spray for a little
bit, then throw out an ignition source?
Although, if you did do any of this and were eventually caught, you would probably end up with harsher charges, quite possibly
even some of the new anti-terror charges that they've been able to dream up
Jacks Complete February 18th, 2006, 11:00 AM

Using a roach bomb, if available, would be a "chemical weapon" so yes, expect to get fucked big time. Of course, they would
have to catch you - hand them out with pull tabs and have a load of people throwing them, all masked up, and you might be
on to something big. Of course, they will have trouble sending 30 people down for 30 years for "terror offences" when they are
all white men.
As for the hose idea, we don't have hydrants over here, they are underground "risers" hidden under little flaps in the street.
That said, it might be a workable idea. After all, you are trying to escape from an, IMO, unlawful detention, so claiming self
defence at the trial would be a fun one for the jury (assuming you can swing a jury trial!) since there were hundreds of armed
men attacking people with big sticks whilst wearing body armour... ;-)
me234 February 24th, 2006, 11:33 AM

My suggestion? Smoke bombs. Then again that could just be because I'm getting into them again, and, well, now I'm
prejudiced.
From what I can tell, you're wondering about things that can enable you to get away from cops yes? Well smoke bombs can do
one of 2 things for you:
If set of near your people, they can obscure any movements made by you: they won't be able to see where you escaped to if
they can see anything behind this huge cloud of smoke.
Secondly, if you can get one near them, they will again not be able to see you. You can then escape, or ram them with your
truck mentioned earlier. They probably won't run too much 'cause they can only hear something approaching, they can't see it
until maybe 10/15 meters away at the most.
Another advantage of smothering THEM in a cloud of wax particles (the type of device I'm partial towards), is that it's harder
for them to maintain their lines when they can't see too many people on either side of them, thus it'd be easier to break
through their lines 'cause each individual is finding it harder to get 'on-line' as an effective defense needs.
Advantages:
-Cheap (always good)
- A 100g device can completely prevent someone from seeing something ~10m away. 100g will also produce a really large
amount of smoke. A 1Kg charge would be huge! And it wouldn't cost more than 500g KNO3; 500 sugar; 250-300g candle wax.
-It'll be easy to rig a charge with either a time delay or a remote initiation source. So excluding camera's (which you have a lot
of over there), you have a chance of not being associated with them.
Disadvantages:
-Wind has a big influence on these things. A light wind can be handles through shear volume of smoke, but a heavy wind
could really wreck your day. Plus, sometimes the wind changes - just ask WW1 veterans
-Anyone with IR goggles could probably see right through the cloud. Unless wax particles reflect IR (doubt it). Hey, does
anyone know of any particulate matter that can reflect IR, maybe some could be incorporated into a device to defeat IR
goggles etc.
-Subjecting yourself and a mob to a smoke cloud could cause panic if not everyone is prepared for it; can cause confusion
among your ranks, and various other bad scenarios.
If you are participating in a planned-route march, you might be able to judge where the oink oinkers are going to be
positioned when any confrontation might begin. Knowing this you could prepare sites some time beforehand, and set them so
that the devices go off when and where you want/need them.
I've seen too many news clips of angry mobs throwing stones at cops and being beaten back. Now imagine if you will, an angry
mob approaching police lines. The cops are tense, they're waiting for the fighting to start.
But something seems off... What? "hey, is that a mist coming in?", "Can't be...can it?". gradually their vision diminishes until
they can only see a few meters ahead of themselves.
The superiors get antsy, they order the line either forward or backwards out of the mist, and quickly, the mob's approaching
after all.
Nobody can see more than 5 people on either side of themselves; the line starts to break up... But nobody can ell cause THEY
CAN'T SEE ANYTHING.
Suddenly you've got the police panicked, probably all trying to pull on gas masks while trying to keep the line cause they fear
nerve agents (ignorant fools).
And then a, well, lets face it, a relatively, well organized angry mob attacking the them as they're panicking and their lines are
starting to break even before the attack.
Personally I think it sounds OK.
Or...
They're chasing you, sprinting after you as fast as their riot gear will allow. Suddenly they start having difficulty finding you in
this freak mist. Then they can see you. Or the fact that you're not in front of them anymore, but rather have run down a side
alley. They're giving up when...
Story A:
they decide that you're not worth it, nor are any of the other people that seem to have disappeared before they could fill their
arrest (harass people who are allowed to be there) quota.
Story B:
COUNTERATTACK!!!
I can't see anything...Where are all these stones coming from?... Is that a baton I see swinging for my hea...
Hey Jacks, what do you think?
Sorry it took so long to get across.
For anybody reading this: this is a work of fiction, and is not meant to be used in any unlawful way. The author cannot be held
liable for the use of the above suggestion that may or may not be contemplated by deviant characters that I feel certain do
not occur in this here Forum.
P.S. I haven't broken any laws in the last 9 years...

I believe one thing which must not be overlooked in any active resistance movement is police dogs. That critters (believe me if
the demonstration is a big one they shall bring more than one) may render your day into a nightmare. If we discuss active
resistance ideas then one must also prepare for police dogs.
In my country's case, trained police dogs are used very much and bastards depending on the mood of their human partners
can go directly to the throat of the demonstrator. And they shall most probably not be effected by any smokescreen you shall
improvise, but maybe some sort of tear gas may effect them.
Maybe in such a case, it would be handy for the demonstrators / insurgents to have some sort of improvised paper gas (like
vinegar / black pepper one) to repel police dogs. Regards.
Chris The Great February 26th, 2006, 02:40 AM

I would think that hot wax particles will throw off IR goggles quite nicely.
Alexires February 26th, 2006, 07:12 AM

Now, mind you, this is just an idea that occured to me when reading this thread. Imagine mixing chilli powder with the smoke
bomb, or running the hot smoke through a 'chilli chamber' that will allow the chilli to be picked up and carried along with the
hot smoke. Dogs are going to love that.
Also, for IR goggles, I was thinking a metal oxide along the same lines as Titanium Oxide. Let me regress. In sunscreen, I
believe the active ingredient is Titanium Oxide or some kind of metallic oxide, as is the 'Zinc Block' that cricket players
sometimes wear. If powdered zinc was added to the smoke mixture, then upon ignition, zinc oxide would be produced which
may act to block IR radiation. I've looked around the net a bit, but it isnt overly helpful. Another avenue would be to dispers
something in the smoke powder that holds its heat well, and continues to radiate it for maybe 30 seconds after ignition, thus
confusing infrared goggles.
It was just a thought, probably with loads of holes. Please be nice *grin*.

Actually, not bad ideas guys.
But now, for something else.
Be warned, this is a very long reply (~5 pages), but I have a lot to say, so find a quite corner to read this in and grab some
coffee.
P.S. I might not always seem to make sense, that happens sometimes. Sorry.
So I was sitting around pondering what Jacks Complete said in this thread, and it hit me in a sudden, and most gradual way:
The Crackdown has already happened.
It happened years ago I imagine, we were just too selfish to admit it.
You see, we all anticipate the Crackdown. Some with trepidation; some with enthusiasm. NBK with a sneaky grin. But what we
all anticipate is mostly correct, and yet mostly wrong.
I am aware that I sound like Im loosing it, but give me a bit of time to explain.
What we all THINK the crackdown is going to be, see, is this one law, this one act, this one attack on us that will prove
conclusively that it h as, in fact, actually happened, and will give us an excuse to put a ll the thing s we ve learnt on this Forum
to use.
W e a ll ex pect that it ll be that one la w that will be just a little too harsh for the people of our respe ctive cou ntries (although
saying it that way implies that we all signed o ur name s to some piece of paper that says we p romise to actually obey all our
country s laws and rules etc.). We a ll ex pect that that law will shock the people awake (ala. Ira Levin s This perfect day ) from
their dream like states where they are happy to have people track them through their cell-phones, and are glad that people
are reading through their every purchase because debit cards are safer than cash . Why, becau se the y think it m a k e s t h e m
safe.
We keep expecting the Forum to be suddenly outlawed, and us all suddenly arrested for knowing things that some
g o v e r n m e n t puke d ecided we shouldn t be allowed to kn ow. And we expe ct that that fact that a whole commu nity was made
illegal, and that people were arrested and made to disappear simply for being informed about a particular branch of science
will shock people awake, and that this attack on us and our Forum will be that final straw, and will give us that final reason to
act. And we expect that the people will follow us because they know we are right.
If the government could just be stupid enough to invoke that one single law that will make the people stop and think, and
realize that they need to do something, and that us, we the members of this Forum, are not the terrorists they used to think
we were, that in fact we were just awake for longer than them. And in truth, because of what we know (what they used to think
was bad information ) that we could be of mo re value to them than almo st any other sing le person, because we can help
them to fight the G-men.
In utter and hopelessly miserable truth, we re no t waiting and expecting this to happen. We are hoping.
Because hope is generally the only thing you have left wh en you know d eep in your heart tha t its n ot going to happen. Ever.
The governments of the world will not do that to us in one foul swoop. They will make us appear to be dangerous, make the
sheeple scared of us. Then no-one will help us. We will try to start a war to regain our freedoms, to stay alive. But we will be
on our own. And everyone here kn ows th at. That s why we are all afraid to leave o ur lives as we know the m and start this
thing. We keep waiting for someone else to start it, so that we can simply join and follow. And be lead. Just like all the other
sheeple in the world. We too are trying to avoid reality, to avoid the fact that we will be arrested one by one, and the rest of
the world will be glad when it happens.
We can not begin to start a war with any h ope of winning unless we have popular su pport., which we won t get.
We can only make plans in the mean time to avoid being arrested/killed/same thing.
But to do that would be to admit that we are well and truly along. To make plans would be to wake up ourselves, and
actually actively do something about life. But we are too afraid to. We keep hiding form the world, expecting that nothing bad
will hap pen to u s, becau se it a lways happens to someone else, never us.
At least Jacks Complete is making plans. And we all should follow his example. MAKE YOUR PLANS NOW PEOPLE, DOING IT ON
THE RUN WILL GET YOU DEAD!
And yet we keep ho ping that they will enact the ONE LAW .
Why do we hope that?

Because way back when, the British did it in America, and the sleeping population in America was awoken to the sounds of war.
And they were glad to join in. And we hope that of all the revolutions that have happened in the world, at least one could
happen for us too.
But herein lays our tragic fate. And this fate is two-fold.
The governments nowadays are less arrogant than they were back then. They are not as self assured of their importance
anymore, they realise that silly things like tax laws can throw a citizenry over the edge into revolution like the American war
of independence: THEY ARE A WHOLE LOT SMARTER NOW THAN WE WOULD LIKE THEM TO BE. Plus they are, well, not quite
afraid of us, but afraid of losing their hold on us. So anytime they feel that loss coming on, they either make their source of
fear disappear (of cou rse they re no t afraid of us as a person : a man can be killed, they are afraid of our influ ence, our
legacy, anything that we can do that will continue to affect them after we are removed); or they enjoy some misdirection.
How did the USA s infamous Patriot Act get passed? They distracted congre ss e t. al. with an up-and-coming war, and hurried
through a totally different and unrelated bill they knew congress would like, and stuck the Patriot act onto the end were nobody
ever reads.
Misdirection : If everybody s looking at a war, then they re no t looking at home.
And the second twist fate has in store for us?

Back then the people were not asleep. They were awake. They had only just fairly recently moved into a brand new land, and
they were still nervous and vigilant. They were not asleep when the British started pushing them too far. The British just
assumed they were.
As for us.
Neither of these 2 factors is in our favour.
The sheeple of today are afraid. They fear.
But not for their freedoms.
They fear for their lives and their comforts. They have become soft: a power blackout in a civilised city today will more likely
draw complaints of cold showers than of uncooked food. Name anyone you know nowadays that believes in something
worth while (and actually right, not like someone who believe s in disa rming the people cause they think that will s top crime
and other such crud). How many of them would be willing to die for that belief.
They ARE a slee p. Teen agers listen to trance so ngs. Songs were the beat is so heavy and rhythmic that it dulls the senses.
After being in a club that p lays that type of music, you walk ou tside and you can t hea r properly, you can t feel a touch
properly; physically the sound waves have bombarded your skin so much that the nerves are numb.
A n d b e s i d e s b e co ming phys ically entra nced and almost asleep, you dan ce your same u n i q u e dance to the same beat.
Why? Because pe ople listen to this mu sic s o that th ey can d o repetitive thing s that doesn t require them to think, an d allows
them to avoid thinking.
They WANT to be asleep.
Routine kills the soul. Doing the same thing day in and day out will kill your soul.
You switch to automatic to avoid your boring, sad reality. You walk around, you listen to your teachers, your boss. But like a
lecture from your parents, you learn to listen while being switched off.
And the sheeple go around every day with their heads hung, looking at their feet. Never looking around. Walking while asleep.
Admit it. When was the last time you got up early to watch the sun rise (excluding you guys form the north/south poles of
course). When was the last time you realized how good the air smell in summer, or spring, or after a rain, or basically
anywhere, any time that isn t in the city.
For the most of you, and I hope I m wrong, but probably it was a long time ago. Or maybe yesterday, but you re so switched
off you don t rem ember it.
How may of you have lo o k e d b a ck on a da y, and not had a single memory of it? Shou ldn t there be SOMETHING me morable
at least once a day?
The Sheeple are asleep, and they DO. NOT. WANT. TO. BE. WOKEN.
I hate to use a movie refe rence, especially on this forum, but the idea has bee n around a lon g time before the movie so I ll
make an exception.
In The Matrix (I choos e to ig nore the collective groan form the aud ience), Laurence Fish burne s (spelling? ) character said (to
paraphrase) that the people are imbedded within the system, so hopelessly dependant on the system to keep them asleep,
and let them avoid reality, that they will FIGHT to protect their unconsciousness.
It is a sad but true fact. What happens when someone bombs a coffee shop for a reason. A reason they feel is worth killing
for. The sheeple call for some action (most likely police action/government legislation). Some might even form a lynch mob
and try go for some vigilante crap because they feel hard done by; because someone disturbed their peaceful sleep.
I f s o m e o n e s family is killed in the s ame bomb and they get angry and go out for revenge, that I h ave no problem with.
That is their choice, their right: It was their family after all.
But when people get upset over the principle of someone trying to express themselves in a, very weird I guess, way. THAT
bugs me.
Like I said, they will form a lynch mob and go out and kill someone to preserve what they actually think is a good way of life.
T h e y ll kill to avoid any chang es, an ything that might d isrupt their routin e, anything that might caus e them to find their souls.
OK, I thin k I ll avoid the justifica tion of my stateme nt that routine ca n kill the soul , and the how hard it ca n be to find it again
talks for now.
That covers how the sheeple will rather kill us themselves than contemplate the messages we need them to hear.
Now for the second facto r: The one weve all b een waiting for; the big boys; the G-boys (aud ience b o o s , at least I hope the y
do!).
I mentioned earlier how d e m g o v ment folks ain t as plum dumb a s they use d t b e (says grand-pappy with out his teeth in).
Well let s look at things in the way of a cas e stud y, lets go back to old Betsy, to the Ame rican war of ind e p e n d ence. Ye s
again.
Back th en, the Brits didn t go about things the smart way: they just did what they wanted, when th ey wanted (yes, a strikingly
similar policy to to day s g overnments). Now im agine if that Brit go vernm ent, was today s Blair, or Bush, or wo rse, Hilary Clinton
and Sarah Brady! Yikes.
What would they have d one? They wouldn t have just sa id Give us more money, I mean taxes. No sir, they wo uld ha v e
faked a couple of Indian American attacks on a couple of towns with money potential, ones that were related to the big cities.
Maybe a town run by some important person s son or nephew etc. then m uch, heartfelt, interes t would be exp ress ed by the
British Powers-That-Be in the safety of the women and children of families living near those areas. People would be asked to
h a n d in the ir weapons so that the bad guys wouldn t be able to take your gun s away and use them on your family. And, oh,
could you p leas e be a d ear and encourage cousin Jethro to hand in his as well: he does live near th ose areas, b ut don t
worry, our 5 hour police respo nse time will save him should anyth ing ba d happe n near there.
People would be systematically disarmed, and systematically encouraged to have faith in out very deficient police numbers.
And next thing yo u know people are asking why the police aren t helping as mu ch as promis ed. Then the Brits wo uld ha ve
know it was time. One big mass murder, people will crap their pants, and you tell them that they Really need to fear for their
safety, a nd since they don t have guns anymore, b ut the bad guys do, they need to give their local governme nts more
money so that more people can be hired to join the police and keep them safe.
And once the taxes have gone up, the horrific attacks would magically stop and the police would be heroes, and whatever they
said would pass on to become scripture.
The now Sheeple would have various national British holidays declared in celebration, and to distract them from the fact that,
despite the lack o f attacks anym ore, their taxes haven t gon e back down to what they were be fore. And if s o m e o n e a s k e d
why that ha dn t hap pened, the local British Governme nt O fficial Spokesman (th ey were all men ba ck then) wou ld say that the
increased funds they the people/sheeple (the official would specify the people were getting the money, not the government
of course) were now gaining from the new tax laws would be put to use to continue their protection of course. And yes, of
cours e they should still be worried. Don t worry, we killed the bad guys, bu t be worried just in case.
This is the wa y that governments bring about n ew laws and other manner of ce sspool dre dge in to being: they tell us it s for
our o wn safety. W e wouldn t wan t to lose out hot sh owers again now wou ld we? That s a good girl, go back to sleep .
There is at least one other way in which the G-b oys ca n defeat us an d bring about the demise o f shee ples so uls: W hy did
the Americans revolt against the British? Because the British rushed it. If they had introduced higher taxes a tiny bit at a
time, it would have taken a lot long to get what they wanted, but the sheeple would not have noticed, they would have only
seen from one tax law to the next. Oh, they only want this one little th ing, th ats n ot too big, le ts g ive them tha t inch. The n
one more little law. The sheeple do not see all the laws combined, they see each law individually, unrelated to all the others,
in that way each little law seems reasonable. They compartmentalize everything in their lives, keep each unrelated to the
next. In that way they are like the frog that is slowly boiled in a pot: the frog only sees one little degree Centigrade at a
time, the frog never sees that he is sitting in a pot of water at 90 Celsius and getting hotter. /what the frog sees is that he is
sitting in wate r: he s h appy in wate r. He s in a pot: that s a little bit odd, but by no means unreasonable. The water is a to uch
warm : thats a little bit odd, but by no means unreasonable. The water just went up 1 degree: that s a little bit odd, but by no
means unreasonable.
What the frog does not sa y is hot d ang I m g e tting b oiled alive here.
For those who have managed to read this far: This IS NOT an incitement to violence or whatever else you Jackboots hav
determined I all your infinite wisdom should be illegal.
simply RED February 27th, 2006, 11:21 AM

Quite Wise said, me 234!
Something to add:
The sheeple do not have the inner need, the inner desire to create something new, to deal with something importaint or see
something no one did.
They only need do survive (as biological units). A peasant will not wake up early to see the sun, but to water his crops!
""""You switch to automatic to avoid your boring, sad reality. You walk around, you listen to your teachers, your boss. But like
a lecture from your parents, you learn to listen while being switched off.""""
A FACT!!! And how couldn't it be!!! Corruption Rules the JUNGLE!

Assholes get the warm chairs just because they payed/are family/friends to the boss /are from the rulling polytical party/ and
so on...
This is ONE HUNDRED percent fact in my country! And steadily becoming a fact in the whole NEW WORLD ORDER. (in the
Roman empire was the same)
Absolutely right! The sheeple most possibly will not take side, or they take the side that promises them peacefull, sleepy life.
Thats the animal instinct!
But We are not alone. Our Weapon is Stealth and the Shadows are our allies.
(combined with SMART use of the new technologies this becomes impressive weapon)

EXACTLY!!! Thank you simply Red! Well put!
That's what it's all about, that's what everything in life is about. That is what we were put on this earth to do: To find our inner
needs, to find what we have passion about, and to do that. What would life be without passion? An apathetic sleep, the life of
a Sheeple. How many people do you know that just don't care, about anything? They are dead inside.
Bad things may happen to all of us tonight for all we know (touch wood and pray it is not so), but at least we lived inside! (I
suppose I probably wouldn't be so enthusiastic about it after bad things have happened for a while, but, hey, at least I'm
allowing myself to be enthusiastic about it now)
That's what the world needs. That 'inner desire'. That NEED for new experiences! That feeling deep within your gut. That one
that all but forces you to dream up a synth just because it's so, so cool. You can have nightmares about them coming for you
in the night, and that'll give you the urge to just stop doing the things we do (i.e. dream). But despite a most profound fear of
the consequences, we do it anyway. Why, because we are driven people. The members that just keep coming back, the ones
that tried almost ever single day to get in Here when we had 'The Login Troubles', they are the dedicated ones, the ones with
that 'inner desire'
It's more than just a desire; it's not a luxury; it is a NEED.
And something else you mentioned that I forgot about.

The new world order.
People might call us conspiracy hacks, but they don't know. True, there may or may not (guess which I believe) be a secret
organization that's running things, BUT, G-boys do confer with each other, help each other out, and they all know that patience
is the key, the key to boiling us alive. They also know that what happens in one place affects another, simply because the
world isn't as big as it used to be.
So they don't have to be in a secret organization, they just need an analyst to tell them "If we do x, and can get them (insert
country of your choice) to do y, they we'll have more of the population by the nuts".
They don't even have to fabricate those incidents that cause people to throw their freedoms at the feet of their oppressors,
they just need the media to emphasize certain things above others.
(I refuse to call them rights, rights are what you decide to give yourself that no-one can take away; for example, we here have
rights, they out there - the one's not like us, the undriven - have freedoms; 'freedoms' because they think that they are
optional, and they are optional, simply because they let them be / think they are, they're so asleep they'll believe what ever
they are told so they don't have to wake up and think for themselves)
What we need to do is talk to other people who have similar inner needs to us, not so much most of the boys and girls over at
the APC for example 'cause they've banned TALKING about things that may be illegal, 'cause they're afraid it may get them in
trouble. I think they seem to forget that pyro is illegal in most countries. Anybody that has needs like us (obviously not THOSE
needs you perverts). The problem is, how do you find those like-minded people without exposing yourself to the world?
And yes, I know I criticized people for being afraid of exposure, but I'm afraid, and I need more people before I might be
able to be effective in anything (guess how many cops are gonna buy me drinks and ask me what I do for a living this Friday
night, he, he!)
The only things in life that we are truly not allowed to do are the things we LET ourselves get told we're not allowed to do.
Make plans people, make plans. But don't post them here, unless for disinformation purposes. Post ideas that might be
useful to others, but be careful not to give Them an insight into Your psyche, into your own plans, and especially the way your
mind handles problems like E&E. Don't forget, we're here to help others like ourselves with their problems, but not to mess up
our own plans in the process. BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU POST ABOUT, they will read those posts, and determine your
personality; how you go about making decisions; how you solve problems; what you are likely to do in the future; and how
best to crack your mind.
Be careful out there people, but make your contingency plans and hope you never need them. "be polite, be courteous, but
have a plan to kill everyone you meet." I believe I owe TrevorSlyFox for saying that.
Once again, thank you for puting things they way you did simply Red, it directly inspired my above post.
P.S. Once again, nothing above is intended to be illegal, just useful.
Crap, sorry JC, gone off topic again, will be back later to get back on topic.
Simply Red, I suggest you and I carry on this discussion in the Crackdown thread. I suspect I will want to discuss this further
with you.
Chris The Great February 28th, 2006, 02:42 AM

I think you just knocked me fully awake there me234. I was a little groggy but after you poked me a few times, I put some
coffee on.
Now, just a warning before you read this post. This post isn't a normal RS post. This post is telling you to do something. This
post is telling you to stop sitting around and talking and to do something. We talk and we talk, but not much worthwhile to our
cause actually gets done. This needs to change. You've been warned.
Two problems with your exceptional insight.
We don't need the public to win. The Bolsheviks proved this in 1917. All you need is a dedicated core of people and take out
the strategic targets. The peasantry proved mostly indifferent to this. I think we will find a similar situation today, I doubt
many sheeple will care when we burn down SWAT team equipment buildings and government offices. They'd care if we blew up
a coffee house, but what the hell does that accomplish for anyone? Nothing.
Second is that planning on your own is USELESS. We may win without the public but we WON'T win without each other. The only
possible way we can hope to change the system is to get together and do something big. We can't have a bunch of people,
with no overall organization, running around doing who knows what, and expect to accomplish much of anything. Maybe one of
us will gas congress, and another will burn down some police stations, maybe someone will blow up a military base, but without
a organized effort by EVERYONE, worldwide, it won't amount to anything. Now, we can't very well just go "Hey guys, my name is
Matthew Brown, my phone is 546-1394, I live at 1234 65th street, Calgary, Alberta" but what we can do is form cells.
We NEED to be able to get together, and we need to have a organization. Someone like Mega might have contact info for lets
say 5 people. Those 5 people can contact 5 people etc. Should anyone get caught, they warn their contacts, who then tell their
contacts before destroying their list. The cops get 6 of 10,000 at the most, assuming that they catch the 5 who beat it as soon
as they warned others. Their contacts will be able to help them get to safety.
We need to have people making plans through PGP. Big plans, which get sent out to people who are actually going to do it.
We need to have some way of having those plans known to people only beforehand. Most likely, a cell leader will get the
plans and present them personally, face to face, to his troops in a briefing beforehand. No for warning for the piggies.
I've heard a lot of talk about blowing up civilian targets (blowing up a coffee shop as you said me234). We CANNOT DO THAT.
EVER. PERIOD. The public WILL lynch us if we do that. We need to get a statement out that we will never target civilians, only
government, military and police targets, just when this starts. We must not attack the public, because they will lynch us. The
best we can hope for is that they do not go after us, which if we aren't directly hurting them, they won't. We also need to call it
something catchy, like "The War on Fascism". We need to appear as appealing to the public as possible.
Remember, we are not terrorists. Terrorists use terror and random killing, we shall use coercion and efficient destruction of
strategic targets to accomplish our goals. We don't want the public to fear us, we want them to fear the government. We want
the public to like us, or at least to think we're crazy nuts who aren't out to kill them, but not terrorists and killers.
Always remember, we're trying to fix the system. We are not trying to destroy it completely, it hasn't gotten to the point were
that needs to be done (1984 is when the whole system needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt).
What we need to do is burn down the SWAT teams equipment, bomb their trucks, etc, BEFORE we do something. Lets face it,
against a SWAT team, we might do some serious damage but removing the SWAT teams ability to fight us beforehand not
only makes it MUCH easier and far less risky for us, as well as saving lives which will make us look ALOT better to the public.
Heck, we might even get some of them to join in. How are the police going to stop a bunch of protesters if all their riot gear
got destroyed in a fire the night before? How are they going to respond if you planted bombs in all their helicopters?
After reading this forum for a long time, I get the impression that we expect, when the crackdown comes, to be on our own
and having to fight off a swarm of SWAT team members. This will only happen if we do not work together and if we have
royally fucked up our plans. We mustn't go alone into this conflict, I can't stress that enough. None of us could hope to do
much on our own. I might be able to gas a SWAT team before they send in the military, and I'm sure you guys could as well,
but if 10 of us got together we could do ALOT more, and it would be a lot more useful. We need to go on the offensive, it's
the government who should be waking up surrounded by us, with every police station and piece of SWAT team equipment
within 200 miles burning down from arson during the night. We need to get 50 people, and after removing the police states
ability to respond, we need to capture congress and get them to repeal the patriot act and all the other tools of the police
state and push through our own act which will guarantee the rights and freedoms everyone deserves.
THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN. And it needs to HAPPEN. We can't just go talking about it. We need to make contacts, we
need to get organized, and we need to do something. Maybe not right now, I'd say nearly none of us are ready for it, but
soon. We need to get money flowing (I'm sure some meth cooks here could fund a lot of the initial planning), explosives
made (and stolen from factories since we'll get a lot more than way), weapons procured, and plans drafted. And we NEED TO
ACTUALLY DO IT.
We don't all need to jump up right now, but we need to get a framework in place for coordinated action, and we all need to be
ready to fight a war within a year or so.
And you know what? This post IS inciting revolution. This post IS inciting people to overthrow the government. I'm telling you
to go out, break the law, and destroy millions of dollars worth of government property, to be violent, to fight back. I'm telling
you to do it, for a worthwhile cause. And you know what? If they martyr me for it, the only thing that will do is give us that "one
event, that one attack" which will show you guys that the crackdown IS here, and has happened.
You asked if anyone is willing to die for their beliefs. I AM willing to die for freedom if we start this war. I AM willing to start it, if
you're looking for a leader. I'm even willing to be a martyr to start it, if you guys take up the torch when I fall, if need be.
So, the question is, is anyone else with me?

Are you going to stand up for what you believe, or kneel down and live in servitude for the rest of your life?
simply RED March 1st, 2006, 03:28 AM

Remember Chris The Great!
You are of absolutely no interest to the government. They just DO NOT CARE about you! Do not be so provocative! DO NOT
MAKE THEM FOCUS ON YOU!
Try to remain stealthy! Learned from here, you are equal to at least 10 normal "soldiers".
Because new era of warfare is coming! A single man or a small group can not be targeted with nuclear wepaons. Nor by tanks,
planes, helicopters, (what about aircraft carriers hahaha!)... The conventional armies are gonna be useless soon!
Better step on a snail than on the tail of the tiger!

me234, do you have ideas how to seek those people with ideas like us?
(or something else interesting more for a private message)
Better write me a mail
sulphur@abv.bg
Is the private message system working now?
Or directly post to enrich the thread :) .
Chris The Great March 1st, 2006, 04:42 AM

You are completely right. However, I get so tired of all this talk, and all this "dreaming". I want to live in a world were we don't
have to dream or relate SWIMs experiences. I want to live in a world where totalitarian governments fear their citizens, rather
then their citizens fearing them. Maybe I'm just experiencing "Wilson Smith" syndrome. Perhaps the thought police will be able
to correct that. And by doing that, give the one definate event to show the craskdown has happened. I'd rather not get
martyred but if it gets the other 13,000 of you guys to do something it's worth it (bust me out while you overthrow big brother
as well).
Organization will be the key to anything, whether it is just putting together some demostrations or full out rebellion. I think we
should be able to contact a large portion of this forum online at the minimum, and have local contacts. The problem of course
is how do you know a RS member is not undercover?
I don't know, hopefully someone else has an answer other than just talking to the members who have contributed to the
forum.
However, we're so used to thinking "on our own" I have serious doubts as to our initially effectiveness as a team. If we do
something, we can't all break and run, every man for himself, as soon as the bullets start flying, to fight another day (so we
can break and run again then too as well).
Some more ideas for demostations: If you need to escape, for example after throwing roach bombs, drop into the sewer
system. Light off a huge amount of smoke bombs to cover it and then down you go. You'll akready have a gasmask. Have
someone down there with other equipment such as lights and a HCl/Al type bomb to discourage pursuit. Come up at a
preplanned point with a getaway vechile. You'll also need protective boots, preferably hip waders. You don't know what the hell
people are dumping down there these days. Obviously, you can't wear that stuff to the demonstration, so that is why you'll
need someone to give it to you once you climb down into the pipes.
It would be a good idea to go through your route beforehand to make sure that it will work. The map might show a passage
but it might be too small for you to get through.
You can get a map of the sewers from your local cities website. I was looking at mine, and you can literally go anywhere once
you drop down one manhole. Stinky and mucky, and it won't work if it's raining a lot and the strom drains drain through the
sewer, but it will get you out of there without any pursuit. No piggy is going to jump down right after you, especially if they
don't see you go down and there is a cloud of HCl waiting for them.
The dogs can't go down their either.
Police dogs are easy to dispose of. When they set them loose, wrap your jacket around your forearm, and crouch down. The
dog goes for your arm, especially if you make it look like you have a concealed weapon (which they are trained to go for).
They bite the jacket, which shouldn't hurt TOO much (might ruin the jacket). Beats getting bitten on the throat anyday though.
Then, you smack it on the head with a nearby rock. Or, your buddy hits it. Or you use a pipe and break its neck, or whatever.
Once it bites your protected arm, it isn't moving and makes an easy target.
They key thing is not to fear them. You have to be confident you can take that dog down without any trouble.
Alexires March 1st, 2006, 09:31 AM

I agree with Chris.
I look around, and I see the brainwashed, I go to the city, and watch to see how many people actually are alive.
I constantly fight it. The feeling that I should just give in, plan a life like everyone else and be content with all the bullshit they
feed me. My friends talk about getting a group together, of people with like mind. Its a good idea, but I have watched and
seen them talk and talk, yet they deny their words with their actions. And myself. As I have said, I watch and watch. I'm tired
of watching, I want to act.
So fuck it. I'm in Australia, South Australia to be more precise. Email me, and we will meet up. I dont know if doing that is
allowed on the forum, but those few previous posts has got me fired up.
I'd be happy to fall for the cause. Of course, I'd be more happy if I didnt have to, but still, you understand. This is one of the
few things that makes me feel alive. This is one of the few things I would be willing to lay my "freedom" and my "life" on the
line for.
When you refuse to give in with all your heart, only then do you transcend your humanity.
Ropik March 1st, 2006, 03:46 PM

Sad, but true. They already use the "make people fear them" tactic in my country. You are reading newspaper and then you
saw something like "Police arrested man that had 23 guns in his garage". The article is like "He had guns, he had
unbelievable amount of ammo, there is suspicion he might made some explosives and that he was going to kill people. Many
books and articles regarding making illegal things including explosives were found. He was playing airsoft and training close
combat. Look at him, he is a complete nutter. You want him arrested." And that's it. He didn't do anything illegal(often, there
isn't any note that these weapons was illegaly posessed by him, but if they are, they always write it, because it make him look
badder), he is just knowledgeable, armed person. If he doesn't have very good lawyer, he will end being charged with some
weapon-related crimes, having too much ammo, having too much knives, having too much knowledge... you got the idea. And
he will be thrown behind bars. End of story.
I would say: Make several copies of all informations, books, articles, video et cetera you have. Burn them on DVDs. Store
them safely and away from your home. Make a cache of weapons and explosives, or materials to make them. Know a good
lawyer. Know laws regarding arresting, self-defence, explosives and weapons, so you can prevent at least SOME tricks that can
be played on you. Learn some close combat, so you won't be disarmed if someone take away you gun, and learn how to
make guns from normal materials. At least zip guns, so you can take better weapon from somebody else's body. Know people
with similar hobbies in your area, so you are warned if somebody gets jailed. Be careful, watch yourself, walk softly and carry a
big stick. Boomstick, preferably.
me234 March 2nd, 2006, 12:55 AM

Gentlemen, wonderful conversation so far, I'm really enjoying this: It's good for everyone here to see that they're not alone in
being severely ticked off.
I'm starting a thread in this same section for more of the same discussion, I'm thinking Jacks will probably appreciate us not
cluttering the other useful info on this thread.
But back to this thread's topic.

Alexires: I like the chilli idea, he, he, very sneaky. The poodles'll love it:cool:
I would, however, be hesitant to add any metal powder to a smoke bomb mix that used some kind of dye/wax for the smoke.
High enough temp.s could burn away your smoke screen. Shouldn't be a problem if you have a few, somewhat inferior, normal
KNO3/Sugar smoke bombs with the metal powder in them for the oxide delivery. Or maybe beforehand just premix your
preferred metal oxide with the wax.
All that being said, I'll try adding a touch of Mg powder to a wax mix (don't have nearly as much as I'd like). I can't remember
right this moment who suggested it, but I'd like to rethank them for the idea, and I should be trying it as soon as I can find
someplace new where people won't mind a huge cloud of smoke aimlessly drifting about.
Jacks Complete March 2nd, 2006, 07:53 AM

Some great posts on this thread, even if it isn't quite what I was after.
Be careful with the incitement, the last thing we want is to be shut down under the "PRATRIOT" act or some UK hate speech
law.
I want ideas for taking the power back, rather than running away. 500 organised people on a march SHOULD NOT be arrested
and/or "detained" if it is a peaceable protest. That should, in itself, be an illegal action by the state. When they perform that
act of violence, how should the crowd defend itself and its liberty?
I want to scatter the enemy forces, and make them well aware that sometimes, if you abuse enough people, some of them
can and will fight back more effectively than calling names or a lawyer.
simply RED March 2nd, 2006, 09:15 AM

Better add ammonium fluoride NH4F or difluoride NH4HF2 to a smoke maker.
This material evaporates or decomposes to HF - as effective as phosgene, even more...
Something should be done of course, the question is - how to do something significant rather than sacrifice yourself for
nothing.
Of course everyone IS FREE to act as he/she wants !!!
Nothing more than we do here can be done nowdays (at least where I live) if it is possible to be done where you live - then do
it! Global threat requires a global strategy anyway...
bipolar March 2nd, 2006, 09:23 AM

A lot of the time, as has been documented in the seatle, WTO protest, and most likely is a usual tactic. The feds housed a
group of crazies that called themselves "the black glock" a self-proclaimed "anarchist group" or something and while the other
thousands or so protesters were peaceful, they put on black masks and starting running around busting store windows,
spraypainting PIG on all the cars and throwing stuff at cops.
While this was happening the COPS were forced not to respond at all, even if they were justified, and apprehend the people
actually responsible. Then they used this as an excuse to declare a state of emergency in seattle. After that the COPS were
thouroughly pissed off and unleashed and free to use all kinds of chemicals and beat all the innocent protesters. During this
time the black glock members dissapeared into a empty building they had access to provided to them downtown. So they
provoked the police and avoided the wrath so the innocent protesters would have to take it.
Protesters were then all detained and taken to a FEMA detention center without justification and without any rights. Many were
permanently damaged from the chemicals and being beat up.
Then the city of seatle gave them(the black glock) free housing to live in afterwords. Refused to arrest them or even kick
them out of the apartments.
This is the common practice of planting agent provocoteurs in the protests and they'll fire a slingshot at a cop from within the
crowd and run, then it gives the police justification to open fire with rubber bullets and all kinds of stuff.
You must police your own protest. Protesting is an advanced art of psychological warfare it is very complicated.
Look at the experts of protesting and psyops with the most likely CIA orchestrated Ukraine protesting. They have pictures of
old ladies sticking flowers into holes in the helmets and sheilds of the riot police.
Most of the effect of the protest is the press it gets and weather positive or negative. and How you portray it to the rest of the
population, because then they won't be as scared to come forward also that they see you are being effective.
I have a lot more to comment on this, I have been avoiding posting because I wanted to post so much, but I'll at least start
with this.
Kamisama March 2nd, 2006, 11:51 PM

** message deleted **
me234 March 3rd, 2006, 01:18 AM

Bipolar's right Jacks, if they plant someone in the protest to give the oink oinkers an excuse to up the stakes, then you need
to be in control of the mob (control - funny coming form one of us). About the only place I can tolerate control over people (to
a certain extent) is in the military, there it's needed. If you want your demonstration to go well, and make THEM turn and run,
then you need to be that well organised. Have the mob split up into several platoons, and these into sections, or some such.
Have appropriate platoon and section leaders to direct them. Make sure that everyone in the demonstration knows what
platoon and section they're in, along with who the leaders are, and a basic game plan so that no-one is surprised about what'll
happen when the action starts, and so that they can back out early if it's not for them instead of running away when things get
heavy, thus possibly starting a mad dash for 'safety'.
I suppose the problem with these ideas is that we've, almost to the man, assumed that everyone else in the protest will be
someone like you. But if this is not so, then life becomes much harder for you, and those like you that are in the crowd.
Maybe you can do what the cops and some 'extremist' groups do, plant a few people in the crowd to induce an attack on the
people illegally trying to stop you ding what you should be allowed to do. Have a march going, some smoke devices set up
(wherever your analysis of the situation dictated they should be placed whenever you finalised the plans for the march), some
fire hoses would be nice I guess, but maybe not essential.
If you're going through a fairly well built up area, a couple of people on roof tops armed with bottles of chloropicrin and bug
bombs, ready to drop onto the anti-protestor protestors (oink) could induce a bit of a mad fumble for gasmasks or the like
amongst the oinkers. If your people all had gas masks, or some other preventative measure, then that would be wonderful,
but alas improbable.
OK, what've we got so far: smoke bombs to help with confusion (make sure your people are ready for them); teargas to be
used on the normal teargas throwers; a few powerful hoses would be great, but you said unlikely for you, so we'll ignore them
in your case. OK, now what?
I guess, if you have the smoke screen over the oinkers, then some stone (read ROCK) throwers could do some damage if the
boys-in-blue couldn't see them coming. The problem with smoke screens over THEM, is that, if you need to attack, the same
disadvantages they feel will be experienced by your guys as well. I would advise against smoke screens over any area you
plan on attacking: they are trained, mostly your guys will not be, thus the disadvantages of confusion and loss of leadership
control will affect your people more.
If you can organise a loudspeaker, you could try to confuse the cops by giving them orders to move around or whatever in
your most official sounding voice. Nah, won't work, even if they think it is someone with rank, they might notice the fact that
the voice directing their actions is coming from the crowd of protestors.
Propaganda for the benefit of the pigs might help a little bit. Explain to them that what you're doing should not be illegal and
all that crap, try to reason with them. I sincerely doubt that any of them might concede the point to you. But, if you keep
telling them that you are a peaceful protest, why are they trying to stop you, you are a peaceful... then ATTACK! You might be
able to catch them slightly off-guard.
Man I'm sleepy. Sorry guys, my ideas aren't quite up to scratch today. I'll get back to you when I have something better.
Gammaray March 5th, 2006, 12:31 AM

Hi, use a fire extinguisher, fill it with chickenshit ( you can get it from a chickenfarmer) and than give the cop s a shower the
bastard s smell than like a skunk ( butyric acid work all so and you can use a small sprayer, but it is expensive)
Hobbit Porn March 7th, 2006, 11:54 PM

I kinda like the idea of showering opposing people with liquid shit, fertiliser or something equally as offensive to the nose.
However, I think using a fire extinguisher would be more hassle then it's worth.
Most fire extinguishers that I've encountered only have a range of a few metres, so that would mean you'd have to be fairly
close to the riot line to utilize it. Also, if the nozzle on the extinguisher turned the spray into a mist, you'd have the problem of
spraying yourself and others with vile smelling stuff, which would make it a lot harder to flee and remain inconspicuous
enought to get away (which I think is what Jacks was trying to get ideas for when he started the thread).
I think a simpler and probably a lot easier way to deliver the stuff would be to use a super soaker, or any other water pistol
that uses compressed air to shoot the liquid. It's the same principle as a fire extinguisher, except less bulky and probably a
lot easier to use.
billybobjoe March 12th, 2006, 02:19 PM
Bees...Thousands of bees. Bee farmers don't lock their hives, so get a bee smoker, smoke one of their hives at night and
then scrape the dormant bees into a screen covered wooden box. A wooden box that will break when thrown on the ground.
Toss it off a roof into the police ranks. My first guess would be that several thousand pissed off bees would cause confusion in
their ranks as they sting every bit of exposed skin.
cons: Theft under a thousand for the bees, unless you just buy them.
pros: I don't think there is a law wacky enough to cover throwing bees at some one.

See http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=74713&postcount=18

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Plans
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me234 March 2nd, 2006, 02:01 AM

I was hoping the simplicity of the title would do this thread justice.
While not really an engineering type thread, this section does have the word 'plans' in the title, so I figured If the shape
charge fits the door...
So anyways, this here thread is about IT. The Crackdown. And any associated plans one might need to make, especially since
it has, for all intents and purposes, happened in basically all the countries in the world (except maybe for the anarchist states
- oxymoron?).
We live amongst sleeping people every day, all of us. At some point we all discovered that we ourselves were awake. How we
each come to that point is for each of us to know for ourselves. A memory to cherish or despise, everyone has a different tale.
But this is besides the point...
Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today to witness and celebrate the fact that we are awake. We are here to discuss
possible plans for the future. NOT OUR OWN PLANS, mind you, we wouldn't want to help any pork based members of out
society if we don't have to.
So, picking up where the 'Active Demonstration' thread left off:

I have to agree, the sheeple, while being terribly shocked:rolleyes: , would not actually (I really hope so at least) turn against
people who don't bomb (as an example) them. They consider themselves different from anyone who wears a uniform, or who
holds an office. True, they might get scared when they think that their (actually the government's) police force suddenly has
difficulty protecting them (like they every did:rolleyes: ), and they'll them have mass demonstrations to show just how much
they want their freedoms taken away some more because they need to feel protected. BUT, they themselves were not directly
attacked. They don't see other people as other people, they see them as their professions. If a poor, hard-working average
Joe dies by accident in an attack, then they'll turn vicious, but as far as they're concerned, if your neighbours kid (who's a cop)
gets killed, well then it's all right 'cause he "knew the risks". JackAsses.:mad:
So, moral of the story?
Minimise any unnecessary "civilian" deaths, if you can do that, then the population can still convince themselves that this
whole thing is only happening to other people, not them. In this way they can plausibly deny the whole thing to themselves,
and thus allow themselves to remain asleep.
Don't do anything that will inhibit the sheeple's ability to lie to themselves.
In this way, their sleeping actually can be in OUR favour, of course the reverse is true, but a few days ago nothing was in our
favour, them Chris and the others in the discussion brought to my attention this fact, and now I know of at least one
advantage we can make use of (IF, IF we are careful).
Just imagine what advantages we might discover we could have in the next few days.
For those who want to know how to find people like ourselves. Well, to be honest, I haven't been able to find any good ideas
yet. The only thing that has worked for me so far, is you have normal conversations with as many people as you can, and try
to decide who you might be able to convince to think like you. Bring a newspaper with when you do. at some point mention
some news article about crime or some such to get the conversation going in that direction. Then somehow (I haven't once
been able to do this part smoothly or gently yet) bring up a couple examples of how we have not freedoms any more. Start off
small. I've found that if you mention something that directly involves them, that prevents them form saying to themselves
"well it's happening to other people, not me!". Something along the lines of how they can track you through your cellphone, or
how they listen in to every word you say over the phone, or send in an e-mail: "Hey, did you know (say it as a fact, don't let
them think that you heard it secondhand, and it might not be true, therefore it must be untrue) that the government listens in
to to everything you say on the phone? Kinda weird huh? I mean, like who are they to decide I can't say anything private to
my wife anymore?" Something soft and smooth. Also, if there are lots of cameras around, mention how people are watching
you right then. Most people don't care about cameras because they think of them as this perfect criminal catching machine,
they forget that somebody's actually behind them. If they can believe that nobody's behind them, then they can convince
themselves that they aren't actually being watched. Bring this fact to their attention.
Going about a conversation this way can let you judge their responses, and decide if they might feel similarly to you, or if not,
it sets the foundation for convincing them otherwise. Pull in facts about how gun crime went UP in England after they banned
guns. Shit like this helps shock people awake, force them to actually face/confront these things that only moments ago they
could ignore.
The hard part is trusting someone, and also convincing them that violence is probably the only other way. "People will do
anything to avoid a fight" - Fight Club (again, sorry about the movie reference, but script writers have a natural ability to
convey ideas, so I don't mind quoting them every now and then.
The problem with finding people like us, who don't require any convincing, is that they'll also try to blend in, just like us, trying
to avoid anything but anonymity. Generally, I get the feeling that we like to hang back form the crowd; not give too many
personal anecdotes; not talk about ourselves; kinda stay out of conversations about gun-control or anything that might betray
our true sentiments. So the solution?
We have to start putting ourselves out there. We'll never start anything if we can't let people know how we feel verbally. If we
can't talk to one person about how we feel (while convincing them we're right of course, try to avoid lost causes here) how are
we ultimately going to wake up the masses?
Yes its scary, but it needs to be done.
When you talk to people, bring up controversial stuff, like tracking people's movement through phones etc. How you can't
make a non-cash purchase without someone deciding that your money should go through.
Find out who feels the same way! They find out how much they feel the same.
I've so far found one person who feels the same as me about the G-boys, and I've been able to convince one other (hopefully
so far - ignore my earlier definition of "hope" for this time) that feeling safe was an illusion. I made them both feel very antsy
when I mentioned how they are being tracked, and listened to through their phones right then and there.
BUT, neither of them wants violence, they are both scared, they feel that there must be another way, and because there is an
out that didn't require them to act themselves, then violence can be avoided, and they don't actually have to wake up
completely. They now are a bit nervous of their phones etc. But only when they remember to be so. So in fact, I didn't really
achieve much at all.
If people can convince themselves that there MUST be another way (even if they don't know there is one, or even if they just
say that "there must be"), then they WILL continue to sleep. Maybe one step about the deep slumber of the masses, but
asleep nonetheless.
Sheeple will do anything, including ignoring all the scary things you just told them, to stay asleep.
I feel the only way to rouse them is to scare them more than TV and the news has scared them about their safety.
They became asleep through a very slow process. a slow move to a police state. None of them worried about all these new
laws because they all came about - sloooowwlllyyyy. So what's an answer (not the only one - I "hope")?
Show them everything on fats forward. List everything that has happened, and that will happen to THEM, themselves, in as
short a period of time as you can while still being coherent and convincing. If the government's tool is time, and their
abundance of it (like those really, really ling trance songs I talked about, actually, EXACTLY like it now that I think about it.
Hot SHIT, the G-men, and laws, are one big trance song!:eek: ) then our tool is our ability to shorten it.
What happens when you watch a slow TV plot? You fall asleep.
What happens when someone throws something at your head? you dont have time to convince yourself that it's going to hit
someone else, you catch, it, you react. Because human being have in instinct to react when needs be.
That's it.
That's how we beat them!
We do everything fast!
Then lull them to sleep, we have to shock them awake, throw balls at the heads, make then snap away and catch it. After
we're done doing things to the people we need to (police etc.), and we've successfully avoided the sheeple, and allowed them
to let themselves sleep, then we need that ONE THING for them. As semi-wakeful people (not sheeple) ourselves, our ONE
THING will be something different, and the government will never be the cause of it because they want us to be able to
convince ourselves that everything's happening to other people, thus allowing us to lie to ourselves, and become sheeple
again. BUT, what WE can do is, we can maybe, just maybe, bring about THE ONE THING for the rest of the sheeple. We must
find what that may be, and we must force it, not gently bring them around to the idea and ease them in, the time for
smoothness will be over them.
WE MUST SHOCK THEM AWAKE!
It is our only chance.
P.S. Chris, until this starts, this is a purely non-inciting, theoretical discussion.
After it starts (IF it starts) I think we can all agree to let YOU decide again if this is only theoretical...
For anyone reading this, again, purely discussion, not an incitement to anything, despite how it's worded.
I forgot to mention 2 things:

Firstly: while offering other people ideas and advice, try not to betray your own plans, or the way you think, or anything else
that might aid people trying to track you down; catch you; kill you etc. Why make it any easier for them if you don't have to.
Secondly: Use as much colourful language / big words as you can. It might make it a bit harder for non-english speakers to
follow, but if you have read George Orwell's "1984", he mentions how the government was slowly eliminating any unnecessary
words (i.e. any words they didn't like the sound of). Their logic was that if people did not know the words to describe what they
felt, and thus couldn't even convey these feelings to themselves, let alone any one else, how could anything come of those
feelings.
Imagine, if you will, that when you were brought up as a child, you never learnt the word "angry", or even "love". What would
you then do when you felt those things. If you never learnt about them or what they meant, didn't even have a name to make
your emotions real, are they in fact real? You would go around so confused about what was happening to you that you would
never confront those feelings or deal with them, or act on them.
You would effectively not feel them, because you would not KNOW that you felt them.
I think therefore I am people.
Chris The Great March 3rd, 2006, 04:51 AM

More important with 1984 is that without words that mean anything, for the newspeak that was replacing everything defined
everything broadly without any specifics, is that nobody would ever overthrow them. They would eliminate "thoughtcrime"
completely because people would be unable to express their dissatisfaction with their lives. And more importantly, they would
be unable to express their thoughts to anyone.
That book was scary, but it shows EXACTLY (well, close to) what we are heading towards. The meaningless of human
relationships, the removal of any loyalties beyond that to Big Brother, the constant survellience being accepted as normal, and
the redirection of anger at their current situation towards external enemies are all things we can see creeping into our society.
This, of course, must be stopped. I'll get a big post on plans up tommorrow or saturday. I have some very big ideas but not
enough time to type them up until the weekend.
From what I have seen all over the internet, at least amoung the more intelligent people (and nearly all of the well armed
people) is that they are mad. They don't have a focussed target yet, but you can sense a general hostility towards the
government and loss of their freedoms. I think there might be a lot more people than we would expect just waiting to be
woken up. We'll see, I will need to do more looking around. But it's something I've seen slowly building up over the years.
These people will be the first to wake up. Which is a good thing, because I've seen this sentiment most heavily on militia
forums (which is good for us, obviously).
They recommended the exact some methods of slowly working stuff into conversations, while being a normal, nice friendly
guy, to get people to join the militia. And, it also works on people as well. What doesn't work is walking up to people and
asking them flat out.
Alexires March 3rd, 2006, 09:50 AM

*laughs his ass off*
This is well written, have a look at it.

http://www.stim.com/Stim-x/7.1/FBI/fbi.html
Ok, its a bit scary as well, but it thought it might give you a good laugh, but also hit home a bit in concern to big brother
watching you.
me234 March 4th, 2006, 04:13 AM

Don't forget Chris, don't post anything that'll betray your own plans, and don't give them an insight to your inner workings.
When they can figure out your head, then you're dead.
OK, so the obvious first thing one needs is various escape plans, it's all good and well having a hand built cabin in the woods
with a cache next to it, and nobody knows of either, but, when the pigs knock on your front door, how do you get out without
getting apprehended in a vile act of hypocritical injustice (lookit the big words ma!)?
A tunnel might be handy, but mostly it'll be impractical depending on where you live.
Maybe have a couple bottles of teargas or something stashed nearby with a as mask. You can gas them, and while they're on
the ground trying to breathe, you can escape.
So, any more initial escape plans?
Lets hypothesise a situation:
A flat in the city. No back door. Cops knock on it at 2:30 am. How do you get around them? Break through the neighbours
wall? Chris, Alexires, any ideas?
Alexires March 4th, 2006, 10:26 AM

Hmmm. Anyone seen the movie conspiracy theory? For those of you who havent, this guy lives in an apartment, and insulates
his house. Then, he sets it up so that as he runs his pre planned escape if the feds come knocking (with gas masks) he hits
these buttons. Each button sets fire to the wall (I'm thinking a few nice big thermite rods running up the wall), then he pulls in
a fireman suit and goes to another apartment and exits just as the firemen arrive.
I suppose to work out ways to escape, you must consider the circumstances that they are in. For instance, if you havent done
anything too serious, and there is nothing incriminating in your house, then the dreaded "Fedral Police, We have a warrant" will
probably warrant non-lethal force, or anything that could be considered lethal. When I see this flat in my mind, I'm guessing
your standard 1,2,3 flats together, joined wall to wall.
If they are joined wall to wall, that probably means they share the same roof. Personally, I'd have some smoke devices in the
kitchen, say a couple of BIG pots filled with an uneven sugar/kno3 mix near the stove. When I say big, I mean big (as in kg
of the stuff). Have a way of getting into the roof quickly (rope ladder so you can pull it up after) and have a way of getting into
the neighbours roof. When the knock comes, ignite the sugar mixes, and run for the ladder. Get into the roof, pull the ladder
up afterwards and close the cover thingy. Then, make your way to your neighbours roof and another exit you have hidden in
his roof to the outside. Get out, and run like a biatch to a car/bike/anything in a hidden place to make your escape.
But *grin*, lets say that they are coming, and you have some energetic devices lying around, a meth lab in the back with
50kg of product, a kiddy porn dungeon, and anything else that will mean a niiiiiice loooong sentance with bubba, the it
probably wont matter if you hurt/kill a few piggies on the way.
Personally, I'd probably go with the smoke idea as before, but have a cylinder or oxygen and a cylinder of hydrogen near your
ceiling exit point. Light the smoke mixes, open the valves and get into the roof. Same as before, you will probably just want to
do it faster. Another method might be those formaldehyde roach bombs you can get. I have no idea how you activate those
so they go of, but if you can do it quickly, set off 30 or so, and that will probably work the same as well as being poisonous.
Otherwise, have it set up so you can torch the house (as in the movie) and escape in the mayhem. Also, if its the dark hours,
I'm guessing the pigs will have night vision. A few strobe lights should piss them off nicely. A few noise makers to confuse
them a little, maybe a dozen cardboard cutouts that look like people. In the smoke, and the strobe, they might have a little
trouble working that out *chuckle*
Also, I've read about these fire extinguishers that flood the area with halon 1301. Have a look on google, but basically the
idea is that is floods the area with a CFC and inhibits fires. You can also get ones with CO2 in them. As well as inhibiting fires,
I dont think gas masks are going to do much against them. Have your flat set up with a CO2 thingy and set off the smoke
containers. It should take a little while for the smoke to reach the sensor outside the kitchen, by that time you should be half
way into the roof. The feds can come in, but they will soon be going out.
I don't really know how the cops do it. Is it *knock knock knock* "police here, we have a warrant, would you kindly open the
door please sir?" or is it more "fedral police etc." then the door goes down. If its the first, I'm guessing you have a few mins.
If its the latter, maybe 30 seconds at the best of times?
It all really depends. The best advice would probably be to not live in a place with only one exit but yeah, I guess sometimes
you don't have a choice.
I'm pretty tired, so the ideas above might just be crap. I'll probably lie in bed thinking about these a little, and will get back to
it if I think of anything earth shattering.
Night boys.

Yes, I saw that movie a few years ago. That was with Mel Gibson right?
One thing I though was neat, was the idea of placing a glass bottle on the inside door knob, so it balanced, and the slightest
turn of the knob would cause it to fall and break (alerting him to entry). Something I just thought of, would be filling that
bottle with something flammable, and place a candle on the ground, however, that may not be very safe (i.e. may set fire on
its own, not good!), and probably wouldnt work if the door was kicked in.
Another thing that could be done, is observing how far the door flexes if its kicked/forced, or if it hits any walls, and place a
pressure switch there which activates your smoke mix, or maybe some other explosive/incendiary, so when 'they' kick the door
in...
Something else you could do, is get a cheap webcam, and position it to view outside the house, and hook it up to your
computer. You probably won't be able to monitor it constantly, but it could give you a good time advantage if you see the cops
rock up.
Infact, to make it easier, you could get one of those garage lights with the PIR on it, which switches on when it detects
movement. Place one of these outside too, but rather than connect a lightglobe, wire it to your room, and rig it to a small
alarm. This way, when you hear the alarm/bell, you can just look through the camera, and see who it is.
Basically, do whatever you can (based on your situation), to give you as much time as possible to escape.
simply RED March 6th, 2006, 10:47 AM

I doubt the pigs are gonna chase you before you commit a "~CrImE~".
Do not forget they are so corrupted that no time should be wasted on chasing ghosts. Time is essential to steal more (maybe
they dig the money with themselves after kaput? )! Who knows - tomorrow the shit can be kicked or his mandate ends and no
longer is able to steal as before...
For now - noone of us comitted any such. We are clear like a mountain spring.
And how could it be - we are the heroes trying to save the world :P .
------------------
Not talking for the situation now - not to give unnecessary info flow. Just talking for the future.
our future advantages:
- mobile untracable force noone gives a shit for

- short lasting highly effective actins
- internet, satelite, radio - enhanced communication
- wise use of the new technologies
- possible allies
most common disadvantages:
- too low numbers

- chronic shortage of funds
- chronic shortage of time
- chronic shortage of ammonitions (joking)
:)
Alexires March 6th, 2006, 10:58 PM

I would have to dissagree with that simply RED.
I'm sure if the state could make it a crime to think about crime, they would do so. If they have a suspicion that you are
thinking about doing something "bad" then they will investigate you, and if they have enough evidence, they will get you for
"conspiracy to......" It is no longer a case of innocent until proven guilty. Tried infront of a host of the sheeple, you will need to
prove your innocence, as they think you are guilty. Hell, I don't think Australia has the innocent until proven guilty deal. We
might not have done anything yet, but just because we are talking about it may put us on the list.
Where you talk about the advantages, I believe two contradict each other. If we are a force that is mobile, untracable and no
one cares about, then we arn't really effective. And if we are effective, then people are going to start caring.
The rest is very true, money is a problem. In my current finantial state I'm about as useful as a hat full of assholes. Time I
have plenty of (probably thats the reason I'm low on funds) and most definately low on numbers.
Allies are all well and good, but the term allies means they are their own seperate organisation and if they share exactly the
same views as us, why are we seperate? I'd be a little worried that they had other plans, but thats probably just my paranoid
self.
To cyclonite4, yeah that was Mel Gibson. One of my favorite movies actually *grin*.
That idea with the garage light and webcam was bloody brilliant. I just had an idea. If you had a glass rod with a very small
copper wire in it, if the glass was snapped, it would probably break the copper wire right? Well, hook that to your door so its
like the castles of old. Before you go to bed, slide the glass rod through a little hole, so if the door bends X amount it snaps,
severing the copper wire with current running through it and setting off an alarm in your room and/or the smoke devices. You
might have a little trouble with the webcam at night though. Maybe rig those outdoor sensors to big xenon lights as well as the
alarm *chuckle* that would piss them off.
Chris The Great March 7th, 2006, 03:14 AM

I'm sure a webcam would be able to warn you if a large group of people dressed in black (no knock warrant SWAT team) where
headed into your building/property. This way it could wake you up. Sure, sometimes it would be wrong but I would feel safer
losing an occasional half hour of sleep than waking up with 15 well armed cops bursting into my room.
I think what simplyRED was trying to say is that only the leaders of us would really have to worry. But, I doubt they would lead
any hypothetical revolution as it would be too risky. The thing is, we're smart enough to have one person leading this, if our
"leader" is captured it won't affect our ability much and we can just bust him out :D
At the moment, no one does care however. We haven't done anything and in all likely hood we aren't likely to do anything
more than just talk like we've done for our entire existance. Case in point: I said I'd have a big post, and I don't.
I think by allies he is refering to all the other well armed groups in the net, for examply survivalists and militia members. I've
noticed these people have very similar views regarding the government as we do. And, they have no lack of ammunition or
firearms. Supported with our explosives and CW I think any strike team we sent out would be extremely effective. This
assumes that we can actually get allies of course.
Remember, we don't need everyone fighting, people just transporting/smuggling weapons and ammo to where their needed
are going to be extremely useful, as are people who can host a strike team for a night or two before and after an op before
they split up dissappear into the night.
I know a lot of people have family and such and they aren't willing to risk their lives, which is completely understandably, but
they could be extremely useful for just letting ten guys crash in their basement for a night. It leaves a lot less evidence than a
hotel stay and is also cheaper.
The main thing is setting up a communication network that does not depend upon this forum. If this forum goes down we
need to be able to communicate with every member and every one of our allies. It can't be something the pigs can shut down
either, like a central server. We need to decentralize, in real life we are decentralized but online we are all in one place. They
can easily cripple our ability to communicate with everyone simply by closing down this site.
I'm not sure how we could do this but I think we should start working on it as soon as possible.
Not only with this network keep everyone in touch in case of a another long term forum downage, but it would also be the
communication network for any rebellion against the thought police.
Finally, if you are preparing for this, don't post how much or what you have. You might mention you have worked out a nerve
gas procedure and post details, but don't post you made ten liters of it and buried it for later use.

To cyclonite4, yeah that was Mel Gibson. One of my favorite movies actually *grin*.
That idea with the garage light and webcam was bloody brilliant. I just had an idea. If you had a glass rod with a very small
copper wire in it, if the glass was snapped, it would probably break the copper wire right? Well, hook that to your door so its
like the castles of old. Before you go to bed, slide the glass rod through a little hole, so if the door bends X amount it snaps,
severing the copper wire with current running through it and setting off an alarm in your room and/or the smoke devices. You
might have a little trouble with the webcam at night though. Maybe rig those outdoor sensors to big xenon lights as well as the
alarm *chuckle* that would piss them off.
Haha, thank you. :)

I must say actually, the idea with the glass rod is pretty good too (my idea only work if the door is kicked in with force), as it
would work against the sneaky kinds who prefer a silent entry. I'm sure the wire would break if its thin enough, with or without
the glass rod.
You could probably apply the same theory to protecting windows (wire accross the glass, and for windows that open too),
although it would probably be less effective, and there may be a way to put those 'window break' alarms to use instead.
As for the webcam at night, a heap of infra red LEDs can be put together to make an IR spotlight, which wont be seen by the
naked eye, but will provide enough light to illuminate the cam (would work better with a black and white camera).
Infact, you could put all the IR leds and the circuitry inside an spotlight globe (the ones used for the PIR garage lights), and
put that in the socket (with its own powersupply, not running off 240V) as if it were a 'real' globe, or use a power supply/
transformer, and fit that in the globe with the IR LEDs, restore the globe, and have it run as normal in the PIR, so that it
switches on, only when someone/thing is detected (as well as having the PIR rigged to the alarm in your room).
Like what Chris said, better lose half an hour sleep, than be surrounded by half a dozen cops while in bed (shudder). :P
The main thing is setting up a communication network that does not depend upon this forum. If this forum goes down we
need to be able to communicate with every member and every one of our allies. It can't be something the pigs can shut down
either, like a central server. We need to decentralize, in real life we are decentralized but online we are all in one place. They
can easily cripple our ability to communicate with everyone simply by closing down this site.
I'm not sure how we could do this but I think we should start working on it as soon as possible.
Not only with this network keep everyone in touch in case of a another long term forum downage, but it would also be the
communication network for any rebellion against the thought police.
Good idea, maybe a thread should be started about this.

I've started a thread on de-centralised communications, along with a few ideas. Check it out guys and tell me what you think.
Alexires March 7th, 2006, 11:35 PM

I was thinking about this all last night, and it occured to me. Do we actually have any idea what we would change if we could? I
can accept that due to human nature, almost any government will be corrupt, so replacing it is just pointless. What do we want
out of all this? I'm not too sure myself.
Chris The Great March 8th, 2006, 01:11 AM

You are correct in replacing the government, lets be honest, we wouldn't make a good government at all.
Basically, removing everything that makes the government the police state that has got us so mad in the first place, ie patriot
act, the laws JC mentioned in the "active demonstration..." thread, reducing the federal governments power, etc. We need to
keep the basic democratic parts functioning though, or the public won't accept it and get pretty pissed. Basically, we'd rip out
and fix up the inside of the house while leaving the outside looking nice.
This would be best discussed in a seperate thread in the watercooler, "What needs to be changed" or something to that effect.
We can hash it all out there.
akinrog March 8th, 2006, 09:12 PM

While I'm uneasy about discussing a "plan" on a public board which is IMHO, continously spidered by search engine robots,
I've got something to say about overthrowing a corrupt government.
I mean in case of a corrupt government, at least 40 percent of the population shall be involved in such corruption, unless the
government form is an oligarchy or monarchy (in which case the involvement rate shall be decreased but not eliminated).
Assume that you are living in and a citizen of a really corrupt and bad state wherein citizens are robbed, tortured, raped and ill
treated. In such a state, not only the government circles (i.e. politicians, senior officials, civil cervants, police, army, armed
forces, security forces) shall be involved in the atrocities taking place, but also many non-governmental actors shall also be
responsible for them.
So, if you want to get rid of the regime, then you have to eliminate all, I mean all, of these wrong-doers and any associates
they may have (which implies passive supporters, friends, families, so on and so forth).
And as you may notice, this is clean butchery which shall, most probably, entail new and more atrocities, since you also commit
atrocities to get rid of them.
Regards.
Edit : A typo
Chris The Great March 8th, 2006, 09:26 PM

Very good point, which is why the central issue is to keep the body count to a minimum.
One thing I got out of 1984 that is good is that killing someone while they oppose you only helps their cause. You need to
break them down and put them back together to be like you want. And that is why needs to be done to the government. Now,
violence would be needed to do such a thing but not on the scale you propose. A few surgical strikes here and there with some
follow ups is going to do more than just shooting every corrupt beurocrat you see (despite how fun that would be).

(despite how fun that would be)
INDEED!!!
Do you know the radio game - "fox hunting". I will make it for them if I have the chance. Me -with gun and directed receiver,
the "fox" with transmitter .
very short on:
What should be changed -
-gun control - guns should become more legal

-education system - it is hell nowdays for average young people trying to do science - this MUST change! The state should
encourage young people to work with life science, literature, history etc... NOW IT MAKES EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO CONFRONT
SUCH PEOPLE (at least here).
-corruption (not everywhere this is a major problem but steadily becoming if not acted fast enough)
For example here they need to hire 10 research associates. They hire one who has the best marks from the uni (he/she may
not know anything about the subject of the research but they do not care). The other 9 people are either their relatives or
corruption associates.
THIS PISSES ME OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The suckers buy diploms for 5000 - 50000 dolars. And you have to study seven fucking theoretical thermodinamics (that has
nothing to do with your speciality) just to get bachelor!
For any other government job this is the same here! Don't you think - it happened where I live, it may happen where you live
too (or is already a reality?). This is a global world after all.
nbk2000 March 14th, 2006, 12:19 AM

It's all well and good to discuss things like this, but that's the very problem.
By talking about it in public, you have formed a conspiracy against the Government, giving them the very excuse they would
need to shut us down.
Remember raisethefist.com? Dude copped a plea for a year in prison, after facing 20 years on conspiracy and weapons
charges.
You can talk about one, or the other, but not both, on the same site.
If you want to overthrow the government, go to www.fruggalsquirrel.com and talk there, as we await it's imminent 404'ing. :)

I am afraid this is not what I had in mind when I titled this sections "Plans." I meant blueprints and diagrams. One should
keep to the theoritical, and avoid venturing into conspiracy territory. Remember, everything you say Will be used against you.
I don't want anyone to end up like RaiseTheFist.com. He got a year in the pokey for just mentioning his intent, despite the
fact he posted the same explosives crap every other kiddie kewl site had.
I do believe there are other forums in which to discuss actual detailed plans for avoiding the day of the rope, frugal squirrel
perhaps. I prefer to stick to the science.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > De-centralised communiucation.
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View Full Version : De-centralised communiucation.

First of all, mod gods, please forgive me. Alot of my posts seem to be new threads, but still I hope you see the relevance in them.
Anyone w ho has been following the Active Resistance/Plans thread will understand why this is here. On the occasion that 'something' happens and this site goes down, we need
a way to remain in contact with one another.
Just off the top of my head, these are the ideas. Have a think about them and please add anymore or give constructive critisism.....
First of all, is computer based. Maybe set up a room on IRC, that only people who register w ith the mods on it are allowed in. Along with a proxy such as Tor, I feel this could
be fairly safe for the people using it. Ofcourse, one of the problems encountered would be the same as here on the forum. We are all so anonymous that how do you know I'm
not a pig, or an informant? How do w e know who to trust with our plans? All it takes is for the wrong person to say something, and then bang, a team of 12 goes to the land of
bubba, and thats gonna take its toll pretty damn quickly.
Hence, I propose this. If w e find a way to communicate, w e divide into cells. Say 2 or 3 for Aus, 10 or so for the US (5 states each about I believe)....you get the idea. Then
either a) have a leader for each continent, who deals out the missions to the cells, or b) each leader of the cells is in on the communication. I prefer b) as if one person is found,
then the w hole plan for the country doesn't go down. So, assuming we use IRC or someting with proxies at random locations (libraries, things like that), each leader connects at
a pre arranged time. The head person/council or whatever gives out the plans privately (so one informant can't screw up all the plans). Then each cell enacts it.
Just anyone w ouldn't be allow ed to talk to head or w hatever, so as insurance, maybe the head (who we trust with our lives) knows who each leader is or something like that.
That way, if one squeals, the other cells are going to be in on the action. Kind of like insurance, just more expensive. Maybe set up an account on hotmail, or yahoo or
something that alot of people use. Do not have it linked to the forum in anyw ay. The only time they would be used would be if the forum goes dow n, or things start. That way,
the pork can have all the fun they want searching through everyone who is in hotmail accounts for a suspicious email. Along with it being encrypted, I think it might work. Have
10 accounts set up, that w ay if they close the whole of hotmail for a week, then we can continue.
I just had a little think about what other methods could be used for communication and computer sounds like the best. Preferably the email. As everything can be done fast and
securely, w ith anonymity, and its all available. I'm sure that once or twice a w eek each cell leader could stop into a different netcafe and just check their email, decrypt any
email with their USB stick and act accordingly.
Each cell is composed of a team of 12, or 2 teams of 12. Why tw elve? Cause it mathematically makes sense and allows for the greatest versatility with a small squad. Instead
of a team of 5 attacking a target, it could be 1 team of 12. Or 2 teams of 6, or 3 teams of 4, or 4 teams of 3, or 6 teams of 2. You get the idea. Two teams of 12 if its a big
area. For instance, Aus might have a east cell and west cell. Each cell has 2 teams of 12. That w ay, 1 team doesn't have to deal with the vast area. Each team has a leader
(dub) who talk with each other (another duh) and are in on the communication (frontal lobotomy duh).
One final thing, ask yourself, w ho would you trust with your name? Who would you trust to lead us?
Anyway, this is all hypothetical ofcourse. No intention is made at fact in the above post, and no plans to do anything 'bad' are around. I'm just like the rest of the sheeple,
overlook me. This is all hypothetical...All hypothetical... *alexires sings softly to sleep*

I did some googling and came up with this page of encrypted/anonymous chat/IM clients. Unfortunately, some of the good ones are linux only, but then again, that makes it
more secure, as many know windows is a security and privacy risk itself.
http://ww w.infoanarchy.org/wiki/index.php/Encrypted_Chat_Clients
Determing who can be trusted may be difficult...

It w as mentioned in another thread that we are a force noone cares about, so perhaps now is a good time to start up a comms network, because there wont be as much pork
sizzling around the forums, as there may be if/when people do notice us.
I guess if members met in person, it would be easier to w eed out the undercover pigs, but that may also be a risk.
Well... I haven't much else to say for now, maybe I'll think of something tommorow. I need some sleep.
FU TI March 7th, 2006, 03:30 PM

Just asuming that cell should do some productive work in gathering information, book scanning, testing methods and materials etc. In that case brainstorming is a must and I
seem to recall from psychology lessons that there is minimum number of group members (6) and also a maximum number of group members (12). So I propose that if this
became a reality in the crackdown situation w e go along this boundaries. Smaller countries that don't have enough members inclined to this subject can be grouped until number
of group members reach the limit.
Linux is the OS of choice since it is smaller and compact, and can be fitted for the purpose of portable USB based disk or even RW-CD. I'm not so convinced that anyone can
count on "safe" net comunication of any kind but then again I'm not an expert in that area. I will also try to figure out some more things to add latter.

http://ww w.trilogysolutions.com/products-trilogyec.html
Have a look at that. 256 Encrypted IM program. Free too. Cyclonite, if you could, please send me a PM and we can talk about things here.

http://ww w.trilogysolutions.com/products-trilogyec.html
Have a look at that. 256 Encrypted IM program. Free too.
I just downloaded a copy, and noticed a major disadvantage. :(

In order to talk to someone, you must have their IP address. This pretty much removes anonymity, as the IP can be easily linked to your account. Of course, they can't read
what your saying, but still...
Does everyone here trust their IP to everyone else? And w hat about people still on dialup, it's going to be a pain for them. Otherwise, it looks like an OK piece of software.

Don't think just one-on-one communication methods. These are very useful, how ever there needs to be ways to reach many people at once, in a medium other than the forum.
The forum sometimes goes down and is also publically viewable. We need something to reach everyone at once but not go through the public.
Perhaps a list of IPs given to everyone and put up .txt files you'd get from ftp'ing the site, if one goes down try another etc. Also, mailing lists w ould be useful as w ell.
This network will need to be more than just a bunch of IM contacts, we need not only the ability for mass communication (securily) but also for the ability to not be shut down
no matter how hard the gov tries.
Most likely I think it will be a mixture of many different methods of communication.
Also, remember you can use ICQ w ith PGP.
An advantage of that program, if it needs your IP, is that cell members can directly communicate and do not have to go through a public server. And remember, beyond the cell,
nobody knows anything about them. The people in charge might know the cell's location, and w ho the leader is, and the general capabilities, but they w ouldn't know w ho is
actually in the cell. The less everyone knows the safer it is, because if one guy gets busted, the most he can implicate are the members of his cell. He doesn't know people not
in his cell or anything about other cells (he might talk to people in other cells but of course they won't talk about who else is in their cell or whatever). Basically, unless you're a
member of my cell, you don't know who I am, where I am or what my capabilities are, the most you w ould know is that my net alias is Chris The Great which gets the pigs
nowhere if they bust you.

Cyclonite4:
Did you look around the site? There is a version for a USB stick. Combined w ith an internet cafe, or a library, all you would need to do would be to mobile text the IP to the
other person and bingo, instant encrypted chat. Combined with the ultra secure option and a preset password, I think that w ould work.
Chris: This idea was just for plans. If you sent the plans to everyone, I'm sure the pork w ould get their hands on it. This was just a method for intercell communication and
things like that where you dont need to contact a vast majority of people.
Mailing lists would be best I think. Encrypted mail, sent out would work nicely. Maybe I'm stupid, but why do we need to be able to mass communicate securily, Chris? If the
pork is already here, anything posted here is probably saved and read at some point. Hence any idea involving the use of the forum as a medium to tell people any kind of plan
is rather pointless IMHO. I could ofcourse be missing something and be horribly wrong.
Lets say that someone, somew here is the leader. I talk to him/her via encrypted IM. He/she lays out the next surgical strike. I then relay this info to the cell members under my
command and it is done. No need for anyone outside of our cell to know about it. Anyone in the cell is trusted, as I w ould know them personally. Maybe the leader or whatever
doesn't need to know who I am, just that I'm in charge of the cell.
I subscribe to the KISS ideal. If there are lots of w ays of communication, then its easier to miss one, or mess it up.

That is what I had in mind, however it would be nice to have a method of mass communication outside the forum in case it goes down or something. For example if something
had to be said that everyone would get. This is one way to spread general communications and such, as IMing the cell leaders would take time and such, especially if you want
to relay a message to every single person involved.
So I'm not talking about larger communication through the forum, rather through some different medium. I'm not completely sure w hat would work, but it w ould be something
that only the cells would be able to find. For example, some personal computer w hich has a folder open to access through ftp, and only cells know the IP. So only they can
connect and find the folder which will hold a txt file that gives them an update, for example "Chris The Great got sent to Quatamalo", which would be important for everyone to
know.
Still not sure what would w ork best for this but a mialing list seems to be best IMO.
Details wouldn't be spread like that, rather they w ould be sent only to cells leaders w ho will participate, like you said. Perhaps by IM, or more likely through PGP encrypted mail
since that way they can send the entire plan w ith maps etc at once.
defrab March 11th, 2006, 12:57 PM

Good thinking, we should probably create our ow n software, and find ways to set up communication systems, partially centralized around major cities (NY, Toronto, Vancouver)
and also create completly decentralized systems. Also, find w ays to gather, in case its ever needed
simply RED March 11th, 2006, 02:26 PM

I would like to see a "crackdown backup" communication working.
It should be internet based.
This communication should be simple enough to be used by non-computer specialists (like me).
When it is ready it should be explained how to be used step by step (in a sticky thread for example).
I have more than 10 years of experience with "safe" UHF communication and when we become "dense" enough - w ill be glad to help build such network.
akinrog March 12th, 2006, 03:34 AM

I I have more than 10 years of experience with "safe" UHF communication and when we become "dense" enough - will be glad to help build such network.
What do you mean with safe UHF communication. I'm really interested in the technology. In case of a real crackdow n, I strongly doubt if there is any internet communication
over there.
Do you have any books, plans, schematics, etc. Regards.

"What do you mean with safe UHF communication. I'm really interested in the technology. In case of a real crackdow n, I strongly doubt if there is any internet communication
over there.
Do you have any books, plans, schematics, etc. Regards."
For VHF-UHF communication I mean the range between 50 and 1500 MHz (actually (UHF = 300 to 1000 MHz) . In this range it is only possible to communicate in the "visible"
parameter (up to 100km from transmitter to receiver).
Safe communication not always means "encoded" communication. For example - you can w ork on XXX.X MHz with frequency modulation for ten - twenty minutes without
bothering beeing listened or tracked.
Working on "burst" is an option when you are communicating "near" the amateour bands. Burst means you record the "voice" w ith normal speed, multiply the speed and
transmit the signal with multiplied speed (which sounds like a shorty lasting w histle). When received, the speed is decresed, and the sound can be heared.
Working in the amateour bands requires the simplest encoding. This could be done with softw are programs. I do not have such program ( but it will be an easy task for a forum
member - programist to make one ), there was never a need for encoding in my "carreer". Modern Radio devices like "alinco (I have worked w ith Alinco DJ-G1), alan etc" have
"out" plugs which are easily connected to the soundcard "in" of a computer. Quite interesting to spot is: digital encoded radio communication (DERC) is also used by the
amateours in the amateour television and "letter typing". So, if we make DERC, noone can say if its our communication or it belongs to some amateours. We could also works
"near" the pagers for example.
What I learned from the practice is: SAFE communication means:

-MOBILE !!!
-OUT OF HEAVILY GUARDED BANDS (I will not spot the exact frequencies here)
-when directed high amplification antenas are used
-when the minimum needful pow er is adjusted
-when the duration of the communication is short
-when it is held late at nigh or early in the morning (or in the middle of the working day (12.00) - they drink coffee and do nothing that time - hehehe)
-when it contains things not of first importance
-when you use antenas w ith poliarization different from "standard" (yaggie (or even a dipol) at 45 degrees w orks fine :P
Almost all literature I have is written in Russian or some other "eastern" eaurope languages. I have not learned radio technics from internet and thus can not spot interesting
sites or forums for it...

Hey, good one simply RED. That would be pretty damn good for maybe inter cell communication. I'm pretty ignorant of these things, but I've heard of shortwave radio (maybe)
that can be picked up in other countries.
What do you know of anything w ith a longer range? At least a 4000 kilometres if possible?

See http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/show post.php?p= 74713&postcount= 18

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Use of Reflective Tape as an
Enhancement for IR Cameras
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View Full Version : Use of Reflective Tape as an Enhancement for IR Cameras
nbk2000 March 27th, 2006, 10:18 PM

As decribed in my Security Architecture PDF, the use of retroflective tape as an enchancement to the detection range of IR
cameras, in this case a Sony Handycam using NightShot mode at a range of 40 yards.
Download the video, and check on the file Properties/Content/Description for details.
152KB download, Windows Media 9 format.
http://rapidshare.de/files/16599578/Reflective_Tape_Enhancement_for_IR_Cameras.wmv.htm l
Kamisama March 29th, 2006, 10:24 PM

maybe i don't get it, but could you simplify what this all is?
All i see is reflective tape in the background and something walking(?) past it.
nbk2000 March 30th, 2006, 05:17 AM

All i see is reflective tape in the background and something walking(?) past it.
That IS the point.
The use of cheap reflectors can extend the range of detection of IR sensitive cameras by a factor of 10x or more. My
handycam won't pick me up at more than about 5 yards, but it can 'see' my movement at 40 yards or more if I get between
the camera and a retroflector.
Practical applications?
Say you want to monitor a large backyard. A videocamera with motion-detection (not PIR, but pixel) can only work at night if:
A) The yard is lit up bright enough to get the perimeter to above the minimum detectablility of the camera (usually over 1 lux
for color),
OR
B) An IR illuminator is used, making the yard appear dark to intruders (not equipped with NVD's).
In A), since they already know they could be seen, the intruders will take other (less detectable) routes in.
With B), they'll very likely cross in the open, believing that they'll not be seen,thus being detectable to the cameras motion-
detector.
But an IR illuminator that can project enough light to provide the needed S/N ratio for the detection circuit to work is going to
cost several hundred dollars (per camera=$), as well as be visible as a red-glowing spot. Unless you go with laser illuminators
($$$), you'll not get the range to detect an intruder until they're almost at your door!
But...
by using retroflectors, such as safety tape, bike and car reflectors, glass bead paint, etc., you can use cheap LED illuminators
that will provide enough illumination to detect an intruder when his body blocks the highly efficient light reflection (>90% in
some cases), rather than trying to detect his body reflecting the light (<10%) at great distance.
Even if the intruders have NVD's (*SNORK* ;)), they'd think the illuminator too weak to detect them at such range, not
realizing that the fence and trees behind them is betraying their presence by reflecting their shadows.
This is almost like an IR break-beam detector, only you use a video camera instead of a photo-cell, as the detection means.
Which also allows you to discriminate between a human intruder and animals, as humans are bipedal and there's no wild
animals in the US that walks on two legs (unless you have feral ostriches!), so by simply setting up two parallel horizontial
reflectors, knee and chest high, you can tell posture/size/direction/speed/possible weapons/etc.
In the demo video, you can tell direction and speed with no problems, and that it's obviously a human and not a dog, all with
a single reflector stripe.
How about watching doors and fences? Put a reflector on them and the detector will sound if they're opened, with no wiring to
be bypassed. Yes, they could remove the reflector from the door, but they'd have to be real careful not to move it out of line,
tilt it, or block it, otherwise the detector goes off. Epoxy it on and its almost fuck-proof.
I've got several bike reflectors hanging off the cable I put up across the driveway at dusk, and they look like bright flashlights
in the pitch-black to the $20 videocamera I have watching the driveway, and this at over 20 yards away. I can stand right
under the (roof mounted) camera at night and not be seen by it's weak built-in IR illuminating LED's, but I can tell if the cable
is up/down, moving, or if someone walks in front of it, all because of the reflectors.
Rain or dense fog could be a problem, but this is just part of the 'security in depth' strategy.
bipolar March 30th, 2006, 09:59 PM

This is a very good idea. I have also been thinking about using camera's as motion sensors also. This really makes it more
effective especially for a large area, and harder to defeat than a normal motion detector.
Use a convex mirror above one camera and get a 360 view or motion detection capability. You can also take a picture or video
with one and convert it to a panorama picture with free software for photoshop.
Check out this site: http://www.crosus.de/panorama/pancam8_eng.html
Also, NBK do you know of a good standalone cheap circut to detect motion straigt from the NTSC output or straight from the
imager that would flip a relay or something. For something that doesn't involve a computer. I've seen some commercial
products, but they seem way overpriced.
I've found out that most or a lot of non professional digital camera don't filter out IR. All digital CCDs see Infrared, most of
the professional use camera's have filters that block it out for a better picture.
The way to test if your camera does not filter infrared is look in the view finder of your digital or video camera and point your
remote control at it and press the buttons. I was surprised to see a white fast blinking light on my cheap video camera.
You can either buy a filter that ONLY lets infrared in and blocks out all other light or make one yourself. You can make one out
of a film strip negative as I've seen some tutorials on the web for doing.
Being able to view the Infrared spectrum is important and can be very revealing. You can spot infrared illuminators for security
camera's that may be hidden. You can see through things you wouldn't normally be able to, like polarized and other
sunglasses you can see right through.
I haven't tested but I've heard some states have infrared security measures on State DL's. I've seen pictures of infrared
security on US and foriegn currency.
Check out http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geoff.johnson2/IR/ for some infrared images and how to convert a webcam to
infrared.
Sorry I got a little off topic here. Great work. Is this Security Architecture a PDF you are putting out, or is it available for
download anywhere? Sounds cool.
nbk2000 March 31st, 2006, 01:26 AM

The jews are using convex panoramic cameras on their newest tanks to provide 360° FOV. Combine this with video
motion detection and automatic slewing of weapons towards the movement (might as well make them self-firing too) and
you've got some lethal shit!
http://www.defense-update.com/products/o/omni-panoramic.htm
All the stand-alone VMD's I've seen are several hundred dollars, but I'd be using a DVR with built-in motion detection that'd
cost just a little more, but have multi-camera digital recording ability too, so why buy a stand-alone?
For a 'ghetto' VMD, I've seen a circuit in a "Engineer's Mini Notebooks" Radio Shack used to sell (still does?) that uses a
photocell attached to the monitor right over where the target of interest is, and it sounds off if the state changes. Would only
cost a few dollars to make.
I've got a composite picture of the backs of US dollar bills, $1 to $100, showing the IR-opaque bands on the back, that I
made using my camcorders NightShot function. Quite interesting.
The 'Security Architecture' PDF was originally a stand-alone PDF that I posted years ago on another board. I'll re-post it on
Rapidshare.
nbk2000 April 1st, 2006, 03:28 AM

As promised:
http://rapidshare.de/files/16923530/Security_Architecture.pdf.html
~520Kb download
Jacks Complete April 2nd, 2006, 11:00 AM

That's a great pdf. The bed is great! Of course, if your bedroom is already secured, how the heck did anyone get in without
you waking up? If you don't bolt the door (locks can be picked) then why did you spend the money on a fancy door?
Oh, and the "roof security" section is still a placeholder!
I'll add a few things to it, too.
Since video cameras and screens are so cheap now, you would do well to set one up instead of a peephole in the door, to
eliminate the weakpoint totally, and a second one further away in the garden, that shows the area around the door from the
outside. This removes any chance of being stormed by the police, or shot through the door. Wired to a video intercom or
computer system, you could check who was at the door from your living room, which would also get rid of Jehovah's Witlesses.
Also, the radar/mm wave gear would pick up the bars in the walls, and so warn the offensive team, so the first step would be
to foil line the wall before starting to install the reinforcement. Then they would be "worryingly opaque" rather than "obviously
a trap".
You can buy small alarms now for a few pounds that use a battery and magnet to alarm doors and windows in a few seconds.
Very simple, but they will alert you to anyone entering the door, even with the key, while you are there, the moment they open
it.
The original topic of extending the range of the IR illuminators is brilliant, and better than my original solution, which was to
have small single LED sources in the field, pointing back towards the camera. This active solution needs power, sadly, or it
would be better than the reflective tape, as the ranges achievable are incredible.
The answer, however, is clear to me - buy some solar powered garden lights from the DIY store/garden center. Open them up,
and remove the LED, and change it for a cheap IR LED (& possibly a resistor). Now plant them in the garden like normal lights.
The solar cell with recharge them every day, and they will glow all night. They will even glow for a lot longer than the white or
blue LEDs used previously, since they require far less power - low power versions use about 2mA! - whereas white LEDs use
near 60mA. Anyone looking will think they just don't work!
akinrog April 2nd, 2006, 04:24 PM

The way to test if your camera does not filter infrared is look in the view finder of your digital or video camera and point your
remote control at it and press the buttons. I was surprised to see a white fast blinking light on my cheap video camera.
Being able to view the Infrared spectrum is important and can be very revealing. You can spot infrared illuminators for security
camera's that may be hidden. You can see through things you wouldn't normally be able to, like polarized and other
sunglasses you can see right through.
Check out http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geoff.johnson2/IR/ for some infrared images and how to convert a webcam to
infrared.
With PC it's very easy to detect motion programmatically using web cams, I started a project (after being robbed) and attained
a great progress. And by means of a USB extension cord and a small (laptop style) high resolution (1.3 MP) cam, I monitor
the office throughout the day and if any motion occurs it simply takes a snapshot. In future I'm planning to add capability to
the app to control multiple webcams (at least one for the office and one for the door). I shall test the IR thingy on a old
webcam (low resolution CMOS type) and see if it works.
Developing such an app is simple, you shall use VFW (Video for Windows) API and pick three random lines on the captured
image and compare them with the corresponding lines of the previously captured image. If there is a certain amount of
change in the lines, then you trigger snapshot feature (it can also trigger a voice alert on your computer to draw your
attention). You could even use Indy components to stream video (or still images) to a remote computer.
However recently my workload immensely increased and I cannot continue the development process. Shucks :mad:. Regards.
akinrog April 3rd, 2006, 09:34 PM

Since I'm a little bit (?) obsessive person, last night I abandoned all the jobs I had and started working on this conversion of
web cam into IR sensitive one.
And I managed it. In my previous post I said I shall use an old (and obsolete) webcam. But when I dismantled and
assembled the thing. I noticed it's dead (RIP). Anyway, it was already half dead before dismantling.
For this reason, I sacrificed my cheap (1.3 MP) laptop style web cam which I use as security cam during the office times.
What I should emphasize those small thingies (the square ones) are so simple to dismantle and their lenses are so simple
that their IR filters are removed very easily.
Entire procedure of opening the casing, removing the lens (by screwing out), removing the IR filter and assembling the entire
assembly together took less than two minutes.
I played the thing almost till the dawn by using remote control IR LED to illuminate in the darkness and see what happens.
And what must be emphasized here is that the non-glowing remote control IR leds are much brilliant and provide more (IR)
light than the red glowing ones.
But there is a MAJOR problem with removing the IR lens, which I discovered during the daylight. The web cam lost almost all
color tints (I mean red colors are white, even black shirts, etc. seem quite whitish) and consequently the contrast it normally
provides; which in turn rendered my crappy motion detection software inefficient. In addition, since IR filter is removed the
picture became very brilliant which makes it difficulty for one to distinguish faces under the broad daylight. I had to work on it
to render efficient again. So far I cannot manage it very well.
In addition, you must be aware that when you remove the lens you shall most probably deteriorate its focus which is pain in
the arse to fix (needs two persons to fix it one to look at the monitor the other to screw lens assembly in and out).
So, if you modify a web cam to render it IR-sensitive, then you must keep in mind that you shall most probably render your
web cam useless under daylight.
I'm now planning to purchase small health heat lamps (IR lamps that are used for physiotherapy) to illuminate dark yard
during nights. How about this idea? Are those IR lamps provide the right IR spectra for IR enabled web cams? Regards.
bipolar April 3rd, 2006, 10:04 PM

The Security Architecture PDF is very good and informative. It has a lot of stuff I haven't thought about before. Good work.
akinrog:
Thats cool you did it. After you remove the filter that blocks IR, replace it with a filter that only lets IR through. This filter will
block the visible light and only let Infrared light through. You can either buy one or make an improvised one out of a exposed
film negative. That should solve your problem.
Also, you can buy cheap filters that fit on flash lights or other lights that only let IR through to be used as an illuminator.
Here are some links on improvised IR filters:

http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/text-infrared-filter.html
http://members.misty.com/don/irfilter.html
DirtyDan April 4th, 2006, 01:00 AM

It might be tricky, but heres a simple fix to the day / night problem. You could save the IR filter and also get some exposed
film, as said; then, if you hooked up an armature to move them back and forth with an actuator of some type, you'd simply
need a signal to flip it up (visible light) or down (NV). You would want to do it this way be if you were operating remotely. Or,
you could even make it automated, controlled by the lighting. You just need some signal from the computer (parallel port
signal?)
If you wanted to get fancy, you could probably rig some circuit up that would cause the armature to move everytime the
camera turned off and on (through the LED indicator? It turns off and on again in Linux if you load / unload the driver
module.) That would avoid any extra cables.
Might be easier to just get an expensive camera with pan/tilt/zoom. I'm sure some of those have a NV mode now.
Newer webcams have really surprised me. This ip-cam is very good quality and streams at a surprising rate. The fountain is a
great way to show it off as well. Too bad it's >$1000. Here (http://www.opentopia.com/showcam.php?camid=4023)

akinrog:
Thats cool you did it. After you remove the filter that blocks IR, replace it with a filter that only lets IR through. This filter will
block the visible light and only let Infrared light through. You can either buy one or make an improvised one out of a exposed
film negative. That should solve your problem.
Also, you can buy cheap filters that fit on flash lights or other lights that only let IR through to be used as an illuminator.
I don't want to lose the cam's visible light functionality since I'm using it as a surveillance (sp?) cam during office hours.
Instead, I opted for programmatically changing gamma property of the cam in my app on the fly. In this fashion, the cam is
capable of reducing and increasing its gamma value thereby increasing picture brightness or darkness based on the level of
ambient light.
In addition, by accessing camera properties, I programmatically converted it into a B/W cam, which saves bandwidth of USB
line. Now, I'm planning to modify doorbell button to conceal a small laptop style cam into it and ornament the edges of the
button with transparent IR LEDs (which emits no visible light). Or I may conceal it behind the corporate sign just next to the
door, again ornamenting it with transparent IR LEDs.
The advantage of transparent IR LEDs, if they are embedded into say plexiglass with only their heads are visible, they will look
like glass beads embedded into plexiglass, very pleasant to eye and nobody suspects them being IR LEDs. I hope I have
time to do this, because due to these operations, I neglected all jobs I have, which means losing cash. Regards.
akinrog April 7th, 2006, 08:24 AM

I finally reinstalled the damn IR filter into its place, since no matter how much I played with the settings of the cam, I cannot
get rid of white ghosts appearance under broad daylight. Now, it operates normally again.
In short, I could not set the cam's whiteness, whitebalance, brilliance or whatsoever which are necessary to get its correct
luminescence and I cannot find any reference how cameras do this automatically. So I gave it up for the time being.
But after making the hidden IR (web) cam gadget for installing around the door (of course whenever I have time), I shall use
the used cam for the IR cam and purchase a new one. Regards.

I have funny idea...does anyone know exact spectral sensitivity (Intensity of light needed to produce a same current response
vs. wavelength) of web cam. Where to look for that info? I don't think I will find it through Google (but I will try anyway).
Maybe I can "calibrate" it myself using the two IR LEDs with diferent spectral distribution curves/maximum? But...I'm not
skilled in electronic and related fields to know how, where and what to look to purchase at least two appropriate LEDs to do that
experiment. In other words...HELP. I got an old web cam to waste and can't find better purpose for it.
nbk2000 April 7th, 2006, 08:13 PM

If you can get the manufacturers name or code off the CCD chip (good luck!), then you could find the spec sheet for it which
should have the spectral response curve that you want. :)

I'd suggest that the ghosting and over-brightness means that the CMOS sensor is simply getting too much light, and glitching.
Try adding a filter to reduce the light coming in a bit, and see if it helps.
Most cheap cams just speed up the electronic shutter system to compensate for high light levels, but it can only go so fast, at
which point it starts to ghost and mess up. The quickest test is to take it outside into sunlight, and see if it simply whites out.

Thanks to NBK and Jack to advice. Unfortunate purchase in the old time of no-name brand webcam is painfull mistake.
However search based on the chip that gathers the data from the CMOS give two possible CMOS sensors that can be used with
it. It seems that search narrowed the hits but it won't give better choise then flipping of a coin.
What do you propose Jack for a filter? Do you think that it is to much IR that comes to the sensor? I had an impresion that
relatively small amount of energy is in IR area compared with visible part of spectra. Are those sensors somehow more
sensitive to those wavelenghts - what are those some kind of bolometers/thermocouples? Maybe it is just IR LEDs that make
problems...and then the Gremlins start yelling "bright light";)

What do you propose Jack for a filter? Do you think that it is to much IR that comes to the sensor? I had an impresion that
relatively small amount of energy is in IR area compared with visible part of spectra. Are those sensors somehow more
sensitive to those wavelenghts - what are those some kind of bolometers/thermocouples? Maybe it is just IR LEDs that make
problems...and then the Gremlins start yelling "bright light";)
Actually with ghost image, I mean pictures are so bright that people's faces look very pale (like white ghost) and their
complexion becomes barely identifieble.
And I suspect this (i.e. extremely bright pictures under sunlit conditions) is due to overflooding IR spectra of natural sunlight.
When I close the curtains, the cam is getting very good image even if the ambient light looks quite dim to my eyes.
Anyway this was a good test to demonstrate conversion of an ordinary webcam into IR sensitive one. And whenever I have
time I shall make a new fancy ;) corporate sign to provide surveillance.
And NBK's idea even inspired me. If one can write an app, which shall observe certain dots (maybe small non-glowing IR-leds,
I referred to above) on the picture taken by the web cam, one can even make motion detector which covers really large areas.
When an object (human body, etc.) moves before certain dots (thereby making them invisible to web cam), the app simply
triggers an alarm.
I believe it would be a very interesting project. Regards.

I found a spectral sensitivity for one of two posible CMOS used in my webcam. I will cut it out in a day or to and attach to this
thread as an example. The other CMOS sensor datasheets didn't give those information but I won't give up that easy:).
Thanks akinrog for clearing up the confusion I was (and maybe "infect" other minds with it). I didn't read carefully enough to
understand that ghousts were appearing while webcam work in daytime. I wasn't myself that time I wrote...which is obvious by
number of typoes and grammar errors - my regrets to NBK.
For motion detector why wouldn't you use LED IR and set of mirrors and prisms around room projecting net that you would
monitor.

I hope that I will get it right, and that the file I attached with this post will get approved by mods.
Good side is that it explain some of the effects mentioned in the thread, bad side info it provide is somewhat confusing to
me. First diagram shows spectral sensitivity up to 700nm, then the "monochromatic" (meaning black-white or 8 colors of grey
probably) give another distribution far above previous wavelength. Can I asume that removing IR filter and placing VIS one
instead will produce camera whose spectral sensitivity will be that region above 700nm?
Has anyone idea how to calibrate that CMOS chip if needed? :confused: Only thing that crossed my mind is usage of some
reference material with known temperature of phase transition for example.

Today I programmatically played with adjustments of the webcam and determined the reason for why I cannot change
brightness, gain etc. is that the webcam's driver simply do not support changing them.
But I could change exposure setting. And I remove the filter again play with the exposure rate during daytime.
BTW, I am impatiently expecting the FUTI's attachment's approval by the mods. Regards
P.S. I determined that the best method to install the secondary webcam around the door is the peephole. But I'm not sure if
the peepholes plastic optics shall pass IR information.

I forgot to add link I find usefull
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared
akinrog you didn't answer me about posible filter for visible light...are you planing to use it or you completely ignore the
influence of visible light? I see that you hope to circumvent the problem on software level so I asume that you plan to use it in
night regime only.
I found the spectral distribution for other CMOS sensor...but this time producer didn't incorporated IR data or monochromatic.
However it stated the type of filter and light source characteristics used when they recorded visible wavelength spectrum. If you
need that one too...ask and you shall recieve.:)
nbk2000 April 28th, 2006, 09:49 PM

A BIG webpage about using door peephole viewers as fisheye lens for digital imaging. :)
http://aggregate.org/DIT/peepfish
And any plastic that's clear to visual light will pass IR light as well, unless specifically designed not to.

I forgot to add link I find usefull
akinrog you didn't answer me about posible filter for visible light...are you planing to use it or you completely ignore the
influence of visible light? I see that you hope to circumvent the problem on software level so I asume that you plan to use it in
night regime only.
No Sir, I don't plan to use a visible light filter for such a simple reason that removing IR filter makes the cam more efficient.
The cam can take pictures (snapshots) even when the ambient light is quite dim to eyes. As you know, web cams cannot get
proper pictures when the ambient light is low. This is a plus. But it has a disadvantage, you lose (or misrepresent) the color
information. :(
I found the spectral distribution for other CMOS sensor...but this time producer didn't incorporated IR data or monochromatic.
However it stated the type of filter and light source characteristics used when they recorded visible wavelength spectrum. If you
need that one too...ask and you shall recieve.:)
Thank you. But for the time being, I don't need it. Because I optimized the algorithm to determine brightness of the
snapshots taken by the cam, so I can adjust cam settings more efficiently now. No more excessive fluctuations any more.
A BIG webpage about using door peephole viewers as fisheye lens for digital imaging.
http://aggregate.org/DIT/peepfish
And any plastic that's clear to visual light will pass IR light as well, unless specifically designed not to.
Thank you for the inspiration, Sir. I believe web cams have so many improvized uses. You have mentioned about a panaromic
camera that Israelis are using on their tanks. I guess that kind of thing uses a tapered (or conical) mirror just placed above a
high resolution camera whose objective is vertical (i.e. facing upwads). This setup may have many uses in surveilance.
I even imagine a camera setup which was installed upon a very high (say 10 m) flag pole, comprising of a concave mirror and
a high resolution camera beneath it.
With this setup one can attain panaromic view with a very long range. This option can be very useful for monitoring around if
certain individuals (guess who) are approaching. :D Regards
megalomania May 2nd, 2006, 03:50 AM

I don't know if this is relevant to the thread since it is for a digital camera, but recently I was talking to a fellow who told me
about his website to attach a webcam to a digital camera. My Rebel is just high enough on the copystand to make focusing on
a document a bit of a chore. Anyway, he has an excellent tutorial on how to remove the IR filter from a Rebel XT.
http://ghonis2.ho8.com/rebelmod.html
He has some suggestions about correcting the color balance and using filters that could be helpful.
akinrog May 2nd, 2006, 05:30 PM

I don't know if this is relevant to the
....
http://ghonis2.ho8.com/rebelmod.html
He has some suggestions about correcting the color balance and using filters that could be helpful.
Certainly helpful Sir. Instead of programmatically changing color balance, brightness, etc. This one is more helpful. I am
checking the document and convert it into PDF for keeping it for future reference.
Now, I am struggling with the computer threads. They give me a lot of trouble. :( Regards.
sparkchaser September 21st, 2006, 12:11 PM

So if the camera has just become overly sensitive to light in general, why not use an automatic irising apperture like that used
in so many high end security cameras? I can't imagine it being too overly difficult to find one in one of the many surplus
electronics wharehouses on the net these days. Less concealable, true, but it would be worth it for a dedicated home defense
system IMHO. While you're at it you could use tracking and firing coding on your computer like these guys!:D
http://www.hackaday.com/2005/09/21/robotic-sentry-gun
bowhuntress September 23rd, 2006, 06:35 PM

I've got one better, It's called microrefective prismatic banding. It's quite simple to make these and they work better than
anyhting I've tried. Simply band together 24" long fiber optic strands (10 to 20 work quite well) by wrapping then tightly around
a 2" wide x 2-3" diameter clear plastic or glass tube. Use clear adhesive to tack the ends to the tube. Wrap the strands around
the tube until you have only enough to wrap one more time. Glue one strand down at this point with a small drop and trim all
but 1/2" of the strand. Then wrap the next stand 1/2" beyond the previous glue bead and glue down and repeat until there
are no more strands. After everything is holding tight bend the loose 1/2" strands up so they may catch more light. Cut two
pieces of reflective tape into a circle to fit the inside diameter of your tube and stick together and glue into the center so
there's a reflective surface on both sides. It's hard to explain but you're making a light collector that looks like a hair brush.
The rounder the cut ends of the fiber optic the more light. Hope this helps.
sparkchaser November 3rd, 2006, 04:45 AM

This sounds similar to a stack of brewster windows, but in reverse and for ambient light. The only problems I see are very low
resolution at long distance, difficult if not impossible to focus a camera through, and not very efficient for any thing but laser
light, unless of course you are using it as a light filter for a *sensor* that's only looking for a certain narrow band of
frequencies.
To use it for a camera would require precise grinding equipment, and to use it for light filtering would require a knowlege of
what lengths/widths of fiber would be needed for your particular desired band. Unless I'm looking at it the wrong way. Do you
have a reference or website about it?

bowhuntress, that's a nice idea for a retro-reflector. Seems like a lot of effort when you can buy a load of cheap retroreflectors
for pennies, though, or buy the blaze tape on construction site jackets for very little. Heck, a bit of roadsign will do the trick,
and they are free!
Along a similar line, however, is the light-up sights you can get for next to nothing. Take a plastic rod with a circular diameter.
Cut to length, and paint one end with silver paint. Polish the other end, then point the rod at the camera. A huge amount of
incident light is trapped, and it all comes out the end! I'm not sure how well this would work late at night in near-pitch black
conditions, but in low light it sure does glow.
Yes, this is exactly what you see on the muzzle of a modern shotgun, rifle or bow sight.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Electrified Perimeter...
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Red Beret April 9th, 2006, 01:48 AM

I was recently looking at electric fence pow er units, and thought up the idea of using one or two to electrify ones metal security doors at home, provided they aren't grounded,
and also metal window frames etc.
If this worked, it would be a very effective home defence mechanism. Some of these power units even use a remote control!
Obviously you could just put an electric fence up, but this way it will take the intruder(s) by surprise and will be much harder to avoid.
Hmm...something else I just thought up; a w ater cannon that sprays a stream of electrified w ater...has it already been done?
Anyhow, let me know what you all think. Or tell me I'm wasting my time etc.:D

Ha, using "electrified water" is not a new idea.
This is the time to tell a story:
There was a contest among Bulgarian institutes to create an "antiterror w eapon" .

The contest w on "MEI-Sofia" (by the means of corruption of course). They proposed an electroshock - firing streams of conductive water. Over six months those idiots tried to
perfect the device.
Until they realised - it does not w ork through clothes, water makes small drops w hich short circuit.......
hehehe
Idiot safety rules...
BTW, be careful if you put the phase of a high voltage device on your door. When somebody tries to open the door, the hand can not open and he/she dies. Muscles hold tight
under the action of high voltage.
Daeman April 9th, 2006, 06:13 AM

I suppose you'd have to have a good grounding for that target to get a sufficient shock, last time I checked, rubber sole shoes were sufficient to protect against quite a few volts
(saved my butt several times).
I know...er...knew a guy that died by hot wire (electric fence), seems he bent down to pick it up and had just enough time to stand up and make a wrap around his arm before
he went into convulsions. but it got him.
Think you could use perhaps a pulsed system with say 10 second intervals between 2 second pulses, should give enough time for the target to let go. also, remember,
amperage kills, not necessarily voltage. Ive taken hits of 18,000 at 30 ma with just a few minutes of confusion but seen a guy almost die from a welder running 50 volts and 75
amps for just a few seconds (he required CPR and EMS)
good luck
simply RED April 9th, 2006, 12:16 PM

"Ive taken hits of 18,000 at 30 ma with just a few minutes of confusion"
YOU'VE TAKEN HITS FROM THE BONG BEFORE POSTING!
HOW DID YOU MEASURE 30 MILIAMPERS AT 18000 VOLTS?
BAN HIM IMMEDIATELY!!! AND LET IT BE KNOWN IDIOTS POSTING AGAINST OUR LIVES ARE NOT WELCOME !!!
HEY ASSHOLE! 20 MILIAMPERS AT 5 KV IMMEDIATELY IGNITE WOOD !!!

YOU WILL BURN LIKE A FUCKING CANDLE FROM SUCH SHOCK!
18 * 30 = 540 WATTS !!!
DO NOT BELIEVE IN SUCH ASSHOLES IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO COMMIT SUICIDE !
Chris The Great April 9th, 2006, 05:45 PM

For measuring current at high voltage, I merely hooked up the amnmeter in series with it. The amnmeter floats to the high voltage and is fine. Doing this I discovered that my
transformer maxes out at 2.5 amps, and compensating for voltage drop, 7800 volts. It really isn't hard at all.
Also, 30mA at 18,000 volts probably has an inch long arc as w ell, which will drain off a substantial amount of the pow er output.
But you'll get a burn from high voltage at any sort of current from the arc jumping to your skin.
But his point is that it won't kill you, which it won't. You'll get burned at the entry/exit points but the rest of your body is very low resistance and so won't heat up at all at this
kind of voltage.
nbk2000 April 9th, 2006, 08:54 PM

I know that the latest police TASER, the X-26(27?), puts out 20 w atts at 50,000 volts, so I know that's fairly safe.
Their cattle version is 4x stronger, so figure 80 watts, which they say is NOT safe for human use.
540 w atts? Seems like it'd be lethal...but...it's not being shot in through prods buried in your skin either. Skin has a lot of resistance.
So, since I'm not an electrical engineer (though I play one on TV :p), I'll let him stay until such time as he definitively proves himself to be stupid.

Okay, I w as a bit nervous...
Anyway: His post is completely incorrect, it is like advertising - "hammering organic peroxides is fairly safe".
"""Ive taken hits of 18,000 at 30 ma with just a few minutes of confusion""" means : I've been chew ing capsul detonators w ith just a few teeth blown away.
If you try 30 mA at 18 000 - you w ill get deep burning ( not entry - exit). With permanent damage to the nerve cells. Nerve cells... Such power lyses all kind of cells! Hamster
starts to burn at 20 mA - 5000 V even if it is pulsed voltage. The hamster burns w ith quite real fire. One 10 miliseconds pulse at 25 mA - 20kV completely lyses (destroys) all
cells of a leaf. 20 mA direct current or even pulsed is 100% deadly if applied in : sunsplit, head, back neck, hearth area.
30 mA at 18 000 Volts requires minimum one kilow att power supply. You can not immagine how pow erul is this! It will melt thin electrodes for less than a second.
This is 540 watts delivered to the target; W = U . I; W = 18 000 * 0,03 = 540W ; t= ? . This is the w hole power of a food heater concentrated in one electric arc.
If he had measured 30 mA at 18 kV, he w ould have seen what really is this!!!
Hey, w e are not doing these things to kill ourselves!

Immagine if someone measure this "pow er" and try it on himself because "Ive taken hits of 18,000 at 30 ma w ith just a few minutes of confusion" .
There will be just a few minutes of confusion before the cause of death is discovered by unfortunate observer. :)
p.s. It is quite possible that our misguided noob charged an electric capacitor (at 18 kV !!!!!!!!!! :P :) :) ) and discharged it through himself. Then the amperage is measured
quite different way (it was less that 30 mA but he does not know that)... Or maybe he got shocked from TV cascade... Or most possibly - just smoked weed before posting...
If you have DC electroshock (5-50kV), you could measure the amperage at short cirquit. Just put the ampermeter at the end of the device. Remember, this w ay you are
measuring the amperage at low voltage. The voltage drops when the resstance at the end is low. Measure 15mA this w ay and you have killing device.
If you have capacitor cascade at the end - the amperage is approximated acc. to the graphic of the discharge. The higher the voltage, the higher the capacity of the C-s, the
low er the resistance of the target - you get "higher amperage of the discharge".
Interesting effect here is : when voltage is higher than 5 kV and 20- 30 nano capacitor is charged. Sometimes the discharge ionizes the target and its resistance is ignored. Quite
well seen on a green leaf.
Another idiotic - suicidal ideas could be read in pow erlabs site!
10 kV 30nano capacitor discharge could be felt form 50 cantimeters even through isolation (the feeling is like you've been shocked with piezo). The cretin there charges hundred
times more powerful "devices" and talk about it like it is safe or w hat !!!

The problem could be theoretized much more but I guess this is enough...
Chris The Great April 11th, 2006, 02:56 AM

Touching a capacitor gives very high peak currents... I know because I touched a 3kV cap. Feeling every muscle in your body spasm is not a fun experience, especially feeling
your HEART do that. It started beating normally afterw ards, like a defibulator, but I am far more careful around capacitors now.
I think the general idea is that HV is quite good at harming and killing people, and to simply avoid touching it!
For measuring the current, I drew an arc as opposed to simply shorting the transformers, to give it a load in which to get some resistance and release energy. I also measured
the line voltage going into the transformers under load, and using the turns ratio (ran line voltage into the HV secondary and measured the primary output voltage), I calculated
the voltage. But it is a little more than just hook up a V meter and take a measurement, there are quite a few things to take into consideration.
AS I said before, that gave 7800 volts at 2.5 amps... :D
That is one hell of an arc!
For wattage w ise, I'd suggest going w ith what NBK said, around 20W. This will allow it run off batteries. Pulsing the pow er will give a much greater shock by increasing the
amperage, for example you could give short pulses of 150mA which w ill hurt a HUGE amount, but at 20 pulses a second will only immoblize muscles and not the heart, which is
the point. We don't want to kill someone w ith this, just to make them stop. We have guns for killing, they w ork much better...

"AS I said before, that gave 7800 volts at 2.5 amps... "
I am not going to criticize that, only to remind you, the safety sw itches at home can not stand such power. (about 20 kW)
Exactly charging capacitors is the key to make killing device. Pulsing is not that effective as DC is deadlier than AC.
Electroshock is a nice, silent w eapon (not alw ays that silent :) ) . I wish, I will be able to post real schematics after 1,2 weeks...
Discharging capacitors... Charge 30n at 10-20kV. (More than 10kV capacitors are very very hardly available.) The discharge is extremely rapid. Almost always the targeted
material is ionized (cells are lysed) and becomes absolutely conductive. Sometimes you fell the pulse from 50cm. One such shock is deadly if applied correctly.
10kV - 0,5 cm ; 20kV - 1cm ; 100kV - 5 cm.
Seems like Daeman really tried 30 mA and is unable to post to defend himself :) .
Chris The Great April 12th, 2006, 01:23 AM

"AS I said before, that gave 7800 volts at 2.5 amps... "
I am not going to criticize that, only to remind you, the safety sw itches at home can not stand such power. (about 20 kW)
Indeed, it has permamently destroyed a 240V 30A breaker... which was a shame since they are fairly expensive.

When you discharge a capacitor, the voltage drops quite quickly, so the arc starts, makes the connection, then the power continues to be pumped into the target. This is fatal for
large capacitor banks, which take a few seconds or more to drop much, but only very sore for small capacitors, since they drop very, very quickly.
People have survived direct lightening strikes (one man has survived 7 or something daft!) with no adverse effects. Tiny shocks can kill, while massive shocks can leave the
idiot holding a bent screw driver, w ondering w hat happened.
If you want to stop people walking in, just use a cattle fence supply on the handle. Be aware that shocking peole is a criminal act, and killing old ladies with pace makers may
be fun, but is definately illegal.
Edit:
AS I said before, that gave 7800 volts at 2.5 amps...
That is one hell of an arc!For how long? Or is that a typo? A UK wall socket is capped at 13A @ 240V RMS, and that is 3125W. You are claiming 19,500W, over six times that.
That's a draw of 81A at 240V, or 162A at 120V.
How did you draw that, and what from?
Chris The Great April 12th, 2006, 10:25 PM

That is not a typo. My breakers stand up to this abuse for maybe 5 seconds before tripping, drawing a continuous arc, longer if I wait a few seconds between them. Sometimes,
they won't "un-trip" for a while and my last one before it was put into storage never has come back. They are NOT meant for that amount of power draw. The lights in the
house dimmed while I used it as w ell...
The current is just from the two 120V lines for the standard Canadian house, with 240V between them. I have a large 50A socket for this especially to use in my lab.
The device is 4 deshunted MOTs (microwave oven transformers) each putting out around 2400 volts, connected in series. There is nothing to limit current except for the
resistance of the house w iring and that of the MOTs themselves, and the fact I have removed the shunts removes the only thing the MOTs have built into them to prevent them
from pushing out that much current.
Everything in it overheats very quickly. I am w orking on it again, adding current limiting to keep the current at 600mA, or 6000 w atts when not including the inevitable voltage
drop from resistance.
It is a very dangerous toy, and it is incredibly scary what it does to organic things. I fried an apple w ith it, the nearly 3 foot arc crackled madly as it ripped a gouge into the
apple as smoke spewed out from everywhere!
This just might be what you're looking for to get rid of those pesky pets/people although it only jumps about half an inch or so (maybe a little more) through the air.
I will get some pics of the rebuild if anyone is interested.
dennyn226 April 13th, 2006, 03:07 AM

Let me say first that this insupordination is not meant as any type of disrespect toward the administrators, or any of the moderators or other members of this forum. I am not an
expert on the topic of high voltage, but it is amazing what a shocking experience and a little research can do.
I am not advocating intentional shocking of yourself w ith high voltage, nor am I saying do not take precautions. It always good to be as cautious as possible, never assume
something is off or reach over part of the experiment as I did. Nor is this post an attempt to cause conflict. This post is to correct some information in this thread which I believe
is invalid.
"Seems like Daeman really tried 30 mA and is unable to post to defend himself"
I am alive and remain well.
What happened to me was direct through a neon sign transformer rated at 18kv @ 30ma running on 12 VDC with a current draw of around 750 to 1000 watts, no capicitors
involved. It was a momentary touch on my right arm near the w rist, it hurt and I was dazed and confused for a few minutes. However, the hit w as on my arm and moved
down my right side (either way it did not have a path across my chest). The effects of the hit w ere definately unique to my body type and situation, but after all, if 30 ma can
melt thin electrodes, then it should have killed me or atleast caused fibrillation or respiratory arrest.
"If you try 30 mA at 18 000 - you will get deep burning ( not entry - exit). With permanent damage to the nerve cells. Nerve cells... Such power lyses all kind of cells! Hamster
starts to burn at 20 mA - 5000 V even if it is pulsed voltage. The hamster burns w ith quite real fire. One 10 miliseconds pulse at 25 mA - 20kV completely lyses (destroys) all
cells of a leaf. 20 mA direct current or even pulsed is 100% deadly if applied in : sunsplit, head, back neck, hearth area.
30 mA at 18 000 Volts requires minimum one kilow att power supply. You can not immagine how pow erul is this! It will melt thin electrodes for less than a second.
This is 540 watts delivered to the target; W = U . I; W = 18 000 * 0,03 = 540W ; t= ? . This is the w hole power of a food heater concentrated in one electric arc.
If he had measured 30 mA at 18 kV, he w ould have seen what really is this!!!"
1. Deep burning depends on the amount of amperage that is sent through your skin into your body. As your skin's resistance decreases as the current is applied that may
happen after a few seconds, because 3 seconds of 30 ma is the same as 1 second of 90 ma at the same voltage.
2. I have never burned a hampster, but I have burned w ood. It is not too spectacular; it does burst into a small shallow burning flame. It burns along the surface and conducts
where you have carbonized the w ood. I imagine a hampster would have an interesting effect, but nothing like what people want to imagine, a small flame from the entry and
exit points would be about it for that amount of current until the hampster carbonizes at that point then the arc moves on.
3. Do you believe 20 ma is lethal 100% w hen admistered to the head? How do you think Electroconvulsive therapy works? they feed amperage up around 900ma into the head
at voltages well w ithin the range considered lethally conductive past the skin. (upward of 30V).
4. You are correct, its draw is a lot of watts, but keep in mind what makes up those watts. Amperage kills tissue, not voltage. 18kv @ 30ma did not do anything to me that I or
my doctor can see now (or a day after the accident), but turn that around to 540 watts = 180v * 3amps THAT would devinately cause long term negative effects or death. Turn
it again to 540watts = 180,000V * 3ma that would cause a large arc because of the high voltage, but create relatively little heat compaired to 180V and would be even less
dangerious to most people than what I received.
My point is watts are somewhat irrelevant in guaging danger as damage to the body depends mostly on current (but voltage is a definite factor).
relevant links to prove my point:
http://ww w.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/construction/electrical_incidents/eleccurrent.html
http://ww w.cdc.gov/elcosh/docs/d0500/d000543/section2.html
http://ww w.madsci.org/posts/archives/aug98/899698536.Eg.r.html
http://ww w.dadco-llc.com/distribution_system.htm
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/GinaCastellano.shtml
http://en.w ikipedia.org/w iki/Clinical_depression# Electroconvulsive_therapy
If this post is allow ed through, I imagine banning of this account will follow shortly. If for some reason I am not banned, I w ould love to have my old account back.
nbk2000 April 14th, 2006, 05:34 AM

Mega must have approved this, but it matters not, for BFL'd is BLD'd.
dennyn226 is ALSO BFL'd, just like his previous incarnation, daeman.

"Up around 900ma into the head !"
No shit?
"What happened to me was direct through a neon sign transformer rated at 18kv @ 30ma running on 12 VDC with a current draw of around 750 to 1000 w atts, no capicitors
involved. It was a momentary touch on my right arm near the w rist, it hurt and I was dazed and confused for a few minutes. However, the hit w as on my arm and moved
down my right side (either way it did not have a path across my chest). The effects of the hit w ere definately unique to my body type and situation, but after all, if 30 ma can
melt thin electrodes, then it should have killed me or atleast caused fibrillation or respiratory arrest. "
You touched only one of the electrodes (the phase), or you touched both the phase and the zero (ground)?
I was unable to understand w hat you have w ritten...
Consider the idea of going to normal school before posting here!
sparkchaser September 8th, 2006, 11:45 AM

Unfortunately I will have to agree with dennyn226/daeman (and I am a communications electronics tech) it is current and not voltage that kills. Take into account static
electricity. Very high voltage (up to 1,000,000 volts easily carried on the human body) w ith almost no current. That's why static kills circuit boards so easily when you don't even
feel the discharge. I cant remember the actual amperage, but I believe it is in the 50 ma range that current becomes potentially lethal.
GibbsFreeEnergy September 9th, 2006, 03:34 AM

One of the main factors to consider w hen gauging the potential lethality posed by electric shock is whether the current is grounded or not and then the number of leads the
victim is touching. Obviously, if a closed circuit is made through a human body between two electrodes, the burns w ill be severe and likely result in death at moderate to high
amperage levels. The wearing of rubber shoes can greatly help someone's chances of survival if they are coming into contact w ith only one hot electrode. 18,000 volts and 30
amps definitely has the capability of being lethal, but as I have previously stated it all depends on the exact mode of shock.
I believe this man could have taken some hits from his bong and helped his muscles relax before the shock hit him and he had a lesser muscle contraction reaction to the
electricity and therefore survived :p. I used to work at an electromagnetics company which employed the use of a high voltage lab with high amperage applications as well for
the testing of various electromagnetic devices like linear motors or large rotary motors. I know my electricity safety pretty w ell.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Face/Off (sort of...)
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nbk2000 April 9th, 2006, 03:33 AM

While cruising the new cosplay section at 4chan, I saw a term:
photogenic mask
that I'd never seen before.
So, off to Google I go.
This is what I found:
http://photogenicdoll.cutegirl.jp/mask/photos/main.html
It's a two piece silicone head mask, complete with eyes and hair, that you wear over your own own.
It's intended for men who want to cosplay as female characters in a convincing manner.
When I saw this I was thinking "Hmmm...from anything further away than spitting distance, it'd be very difficult to tell just from looking at the face/head that it wasn't a
woman.
Obviously, if you're built like Bubba, the head alone isn't going to cut it, but for those annoying CCTV cameras with facial recognition that are popping up everywhere, it'd be
just the ticket to get the hell outta of town, so you don't get spotted driving across the border. :p
Sort of like the head mask that Arnold wore in the movie Total Recall, when trying to sneak onto Mars.
http://www.tribute.ca/tribute_objects/images/movies/total_recall/totalrecall2.jpg
The only thing that'd spoil it is the fact that the thing doesn't blink and you can't move the mouth as you talk. :(
I wouldn't try using it face-to-face, but from a distance...might save you from a bust. (A pun! :D)
akinrog April 9th, 2006, 11:25 AM

The only thing that'd spoil it is the fact that the thing doesn't blink and you can't move the mouth as you talk. :(
I wouldn't try using it face-to-face, but from a distance...might save you from a bust. (A pun! :D)
I remember an episode of Forensic Detectives / Medical Detectives on Discovery channel where the culprit who killed his wife by tampering with the flu capsules of his wife (by
opening the shrink container of the tablets with a razor) and adding cyanide into capsules.
The detectives determined that he (the culprit) disguised himself as an old man by using plastic makeup that theathers use, to purchase cyanide in recognito.
I always considered it's beneficial for a survivalist to use plastic make up for disguising oneself, but I'm sure it requires a certain level of makeup talent. Maybe it's time for us
to attend a makeup course with other trainee softy men and softer women :D.
....it, but for those annoying CCTV cameras with facial recognition that
BTW, I always thought CCTV with facial recognition is an exaggeration. I mean I saw the concept on discovery; there is facial recognition, but it's not automatic but manual,
where the operator of the computer determines certain points on the acquired picture of the suspect to be identified. Am I wrong about it?
In addition, if there is any automatic process, then it's much more better, since computer's are not as intelligent as human beings thus easier to fool, by plastic makeup or even
a large Italian style sunglasses (those sunglasses which are as big as protective googles). In addition, only thing to fool a facial recognition system is to change/conceal distance
between your eyes, eyebrows, ears, and width, angle of your nose and your mouth. Regards

As a theatre buff, and a self-proclaimed actor. Its really not as hard as you think to apply stage makeup. Looking in a mirror you can tell what looks natural and what looks like
a piece of something sliding off your face.

Facial recognition is here, and beyond fully automatic. The UK, leaders in subject supression mechanisms, are feilding automatic systems left and right. The police now park a
van and go away, knowing that when they come back, hundreds of lovely fines are there, waiting, for both speed and tax and seatbelts and more, all pulled automatically via
an electronic camera reading the plate and tax disk, and cross-referring it.
New systems can track a suspect flagged by the computer across multiple cameras and locations without human intervention. Hundreds or thousands of people can be checked
from crowd shots automatically, allowing tracking of entire football crowds.
Between the two, anyone can be tracked pretty much anywhere by the thousands of cameras littering the UK, giving the illusion of safety. Hence almost every "youth" wears
a half-face mask, hoodie top or scarf to walk around.
I might have to invest...
EDIT: http://photogenicdoll.cutegirl.jp/mask/photos/a2/2k40724s.jpg Damn, that is realistic!
nbk2000 February 22nd, 2007, 12:29 AM

Checked the site today and see that they now have several white female styles, in addition to the asian ones they original had.
Now if only they'd make a mask of an African-American male that 'fits the description'. :D
InfernoMDM February 22nd, 2007, 02:29 AM

Jacks - While the systems will take pictures, and process you against your vehicles registration I think were 2-5 years from a truly automated system that can compare your
face to a photo. Even then I think you will need a facial scan which will probably have to be done at say the DMV etc. I know a guy who got a ticket for shooting through a red
light. Well he actually wasn't the driver it was his wife, but the ticket was addressed to him. Needless to say that ticket got dropped.
Silentnite - I agree. Although if the facial recognition system advances far enough masks like this, cheekbone and eye ridge modification might be very important. For now a
little hair dye, wigs, and some well done makeup should fool everything from cameras to people. Maybe some prosthetic facial pieces. I know several books are out on the
subject, although I haven't seen a lot of great information on the topic. Then again I have yet to look into the library feature or gaining access on this site.
Match February 22nd, 2007, 11:31 AM

I know a guy who got a ticket for shooting through a red light. Well he actually wasn't the driver it was his wife, but the ticket was addressed to him. Needless to say that
ticket got dropped.
What country is this? :confused:
In Canada, as the registered vehicle owner, you are responsible for your vehicle. Anytime it gets caught by a red light or speed camera you have to pay the fine, regardless of
circumstance. This of course means that there is no demerits or 'points' against your license. Even if you can prove you were not driving, you're still responsible for the fine.
FUTI February 22nd, 2007, 12:27 PM

I forget about this thread...so thanks guys for bringing it up. It seems that at least one of the masks presented in each present category is poorly made. They are all great but
redhead asian and euro3 are more obviously fake. It may look to you like I'm spliting the hair but I think that some characteristics are yet harder to copy. It will fool automated
facial recognition anyway unless they add something like thermal sensors (maybe they start recording in IR) which will give away the forgery I believe.
InfernoMDM February 22nd, 2007, 03:12 PM

Match - USA NJ if I recall correctly. He was TDY some where with his wife.
FUTI - I agree that these aren't very good masks. Although I haven't seen (doesn't mean they don't exist) any thermal viewers that could possibly identify anyone by
recognizing heat patterns. Not only does are body flux but the majority of thermal optics on the market, and even in production just can't get enough detail in the facial region
to make them viable. Thats more of a opinion I know and someone might be able to add more information to repute that, but I haven't seen it yet.
FUTI February 23rd, 2007, 07:28 AM

What I meant is that heat flux of human face and mask will most likely be different to such level that machine or skilled operator can spot a person having mask on.
I have a friend that told me that wavelength of light reflected from materials used for masking soldiers in combat is so distinct from natural background that it makes them
useless. For todays aircraft IR cameras they will give you away instead. Tech therefore is here...but will army give it away is another issue.
EDIT: I agree with NBK post after this one. Athough I separated those threats in differnt paragraphs I just jump ahead without clarification. I come back to correct my grammer
too.
nbk2000 February 23rd, 2007, 10:03 AM

Thermal emmisitivity, and infrared reflectance, are different threats.
The distribution of capillaries in the face is unique (like fingerprints) and allow for unique identification, but only at extremely close range and with co-operative targets.
Thermal imagers don't work through glass, so windshields are effective shields in that aspect.
Infrared light can penetrate materials that are otherwise opaque to the naked eye, so it's entirely possible that masks that seem flawless in visible light would appear bizarre
under IR, as seams may become apparent, or the material wouldn't reflect light in the same manner as natural skin.
Either way, the masks are made for cross-dressing cosplay weirdo's and not as a serious criminal counter-measure, but the concept could definitely be expanded upon by
someone with both the means and the need for a multi-spectrally passable disguise AKA FedGov 3-letters' and their 'terrorist' proxies.

Silicone rubber is what these masks are made from. At close range, a good eye will spot the "wrongness" of it. However, with good make-up, you will find that they "pass"
even close range. How many times have you worn a deeply offensive T-shirt, and not one person will even seem to notice it the whole day?
Most people don't notice a damned thing.
As regards IR, the emissivity of make-up over silicone or make-up over skin are going to be very much the same. Some make-up, such as foundation, will frequently be seen
on large numbers of women. Anything like sunscreen with titanium dioxide in it will do weird things. Lipsticks are also likely to do odd things. And, the odds of a thermal camera
being used in daylight, and hand-held, are about zero.
What I'm getting at is that it might be better to disguise yourself as a woman. Police looking for a gun man lugging a bag full of loot are hardly about to stop a woman pushing
a pram. It would take about 60 seconds to pull a dress (with bits attached) over your head, and pull on a facemask with make-up and hair applied, drop the money bags in
the pram, and walk on.
Even with a thermal camera system, during a time of crisis, the operators aren't going to zoom in on every person, they are going to be looking for a rough match to check
more throughly.
nbk2000 March 1st, 2007, 01:25 AM

For the disguise to work, the body must match.
Ever seen the movie Twins, with Arnold Schwarzenegger? He disguises himself as a woman to hide in a resort for pregnant women. Naturally, Ah-nold has to come up with
some creative excuse to explain 'her' massive physique.
If you've got the body of a heavyweight boxer, forget it. Only if you would only be seen from the neck up could you pull it off.
Most womens makeup is invisible to normal IR, and I'd imagine TI as well.
With TI, a human face looks like this:

http://www.imaging1.com/gallery/images/human%20face%20frontal%20infrared%20thermal%20imag e.jpg
I'd imagine with a silicone mask covering and diffusing, that your disguised face would likely look rather bizarre to anyone monitoring a TI scanner.
nbk2000 March 1st, 2007, 12:38 PM

"Driver's License Emerges as Crime-Fighting Tool, but Privacy Advocates Worry" New York Times (02/17/07); Liptak, Adam
As part of an experiment last year, three facial-recognition specialists in Massachusetts ran a photo from the Web site of America's Most Wanted against the state's database of
9 million digital driver's license photographs.
The mug shot closely resembled a driver's license photograph with a different name, and after alerting the authorities, the police were able to track down and arrest the suspect
in New York City, where he was receiving welfare benefits under the alias on the driver's license.
At least six other states are developing or have already acquired similar driver's license databases which, when combined with facial-recognition technology, can be used as a
powerful law enforcement tool.
Analysts use the technology to check about 5,000 new driver's license photographs every day using a computer algorithm to check about 8,000 facial points.
The computer is unable to make a perfect match and an analysis needs to check the narrowed field after the computer is finished, and the majority of computer matches are
rejected.
Though DNA and fingerprint databases are better for placing a suspect at a crime scene, DNA samples and fingerprints are not collected from the public.
The majority of adults do have driver's licenses, and even though current technology requires a good-quality photo, the potential to link an unknown suspect to a name through
their driver's license is promising.
Facial-recognition technology can be used to help prevent identity theft and to stop people from obtaining a second driver's license under a false name.
Obviously you're not going into the DMV wearing a silicone head, but not having a match for your drivers license (if you bother with such things) could keep you out of the
pokey.
nbk2000 October 27th, 2007, 08:12 AM

Facial prosthetics created by a former CIA disguise artist (so he claims)
http://prosthesis.com/face_base.htm
I'd say, given the quality of the work, he's real. :)
Wonder if he does work for people who still have faces?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Feedback Needed
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enhzflep April 29th, 2006, 11:34 AM

I n e e d y o u r f e e d b a c k , g e n t l e m e n . H a v e u p l o a d e d a s m all program d e s i g n e d
t o t a k e s o m e of the pain out of calculating VDet, O B and other assorted qualities of High Explosives.
It ru ns under 32 bit windows (win95 onwards) and is absolutely brand-spanking new, straight outta the compiler 45m i n s a g o .
Any feed-back relating to its usefullness, (or lack thereof), errors and general loo k and feel would be greatly appreciated. W ith
any luck it'll save all of us some time bashing away at the trust old calculator.
Program m a y b e f o u n d h e r e :
http://www.sciencema dness.org/talk/viewthread.php?action=attachm ent&tid=5712&pid=64852
Full source code is available.
Hedgie April 29th, 2006, 07:05 PM

W orks great, tested on W indo ws XP -SP2 installed.
Som e sm all issues noted:
After clicking 'Notes' the only way to get back to the main window was pre ssing space, it really needs a button.
The 'about' window isn't sized correctly.

susiptibale to buffer overflow, nice icon.
have played with it a little, but was able to crashed with in ten seconds of it loading, you m ay want to place a buffer limit and a
inpu t check so if someone screws up on their form ulea input it can see it is looping and opt itself out rather then locking up....
But good work, oh forgot to ask, no love for RS.org in their?
enhzflep April 30th, 2006, 08:33 PM

Okay, thank you both very m uch. So if I understand correctly:
1) Notes screen is too large, and on screen res less than 1024x768 the window ru ns off the screen, obscuring the Ok button.
2) You don't like the size of the About Box - too small?
3) Error handling whilst reading the form ula isn't up to scratch anything other than an uppercase letter, lower case letter or a
n u m ber results in a crash.
4) R S . o r g n o t m e n t i o n e d i n N o t e s . - H e d g i e , D a r k d o n t a y a n d R S . o r g a l l t o b e m e n t i o n e d i n n e x t r e l e a s e .
:o
And last, but should probably be first. Sorry NBK - I should have known b etter and posted it in this section in the first place.
darkdontay May 1st, 200 6, 06:10 AM

I m ust m e n t i o n t h o u g h I l o v e t h e s m a ll foot print, I assume tha t their has been no specific optim ization, but still very small
footprint.
I t o o a m X P [ h o m e ] S P 2 , s o I c a n n o t s a y m ore for other system s, I will try it out on m y 98[non SE] box tom morow to give you
s o m e os range testing.
As far as has been said of the notes screen it is rather large but hey alot of inform ation to show.
Cant wait to see what you add

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > (EMW ) R a d i o C o m m unication
1.Electromag netic Spectrum
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The electrom agnetic spectrum is a wide and useful tool. It offers:
- com munica tion (rad io and wireless in ternet)
- rem ote con trol (like radio detonators)
- radiotelem etry
- m icrowave and laser weapon ry
and much more!
W ith this topic I would like to start a quest for it (quest for information - do {not} get m e wrong :P)!
Logic suggests, the first base to capture is the simplest radio com munication.
Here is a small plan conspect. Feel free to add constructive criticism and suggestions! Dire ctly to th e topic o f course! Note that
to this point good scematics source (for homem ade apparature) do not exist. Schematics of all kinds of radio devices are
welcom e! To this point I do not have a ny high tech schematics, so schem atics plu s brief explanations how they work will be
m ost welcom e!!!
The word "ham" is no t going to be use d unless for hystorical reference - because practics suggests - the air is not a place for
kewls !!!
1. Electrom agnetic spectrum

2. HF comm unication
3. 10-16 HF band
4. UHF transm ission
5. Traceless radio comm unication
6. Apparature and schem atics
-antennas
-transmitters
-receivers
-additional apparature
7. High tech
The idea is every point of the plan con spect to be posted in separate topic with "(EMW)" - Electrom agnetic W arfare in front. N1
- El spectrum is posted here. I will be very happy if som ebody posts his interpretation of (N7 for example) as a com pleted work
:) ! As it is very slow so much info to be transla ted from R u s s i a n into English (my literature is not in English ) - I got it raw from
I-ne t, corrected if anything wrong and added m issing parts and necessary com m ents.
Electrom agnetic Spectrum

W elcome to the battlefield! This is you r theritory where long distance interference is possible!
If you do not want to stick in cliffs - prepare useful map ! Learn how to trespass the underwater reefs!
Radio spectrum :
ELF 3Hz - 30Hz

SLF 30Hz - 300Hz
ULF 300Hz - 3kHz
VLF 3kHz - 30kHz
LF 30kHz - 300kHz
MF 300kHz - 3MHz
HF 3MHz - 30MHz
VHF 30MHz - 300MHz
UHF 300MHz - 3GHz
SHF 3GHz - 30GHz
EHF 30GHz - 300GHz
Extrem ely low frequency (ELF) is the band of radio frequencies from 3 to 30 Hz.
ELF was used by the US Navy and Soviet/R ussian Navy to comm unicate with subm e r g e d s u b m a r i n e s . B e c a u s e o f t h e electrical
conductivity of salt water, subm arines are shielded from m ost electrom agnetic com munications. Signals in the ELF frequency
range, however, can penetrate m uch m ore deeply. Two factors lim it the usefulness of ELF com munications channels; the low
data transm ission rate of a few characters per m inute, and to a lesser extent the one-way nature caused by the im practicality
of installing the huge transm itter on a submarine. Generally ELF signals were used to order a subm arine to rise to a shallow
depth where it could receive som e other form o f com m unication. ELF radiation is suspected psycho and physico active.
Super Low Frequency (SLF) is the frequency ran ge between 30 hertz and 300 hertz. This frequency range includes the
frequencies of AC power grids (50 hertz and 60 hertz).
The radio services Saguine (USA) on 76 hertz and ZEVS (Russia) on 82 h ertz operate in this range, which is often incorrectly
called Extrem ely Low Frequency (ELF). They both provide com m unication services for subm arines at depth.
Ultra Low Frequency (U LF) is the frequency range between 300 hertz and 3000 hertz.
T h i s b a n d i s u s e d f o r c o m m unications in mines, as it ca n penetrate the earth.
Very low frequency or VLF refers to radio freque ncies (RF) in the range of 3 to 30 kHz. Since there is not m uch bandwidth in this
band of the radio spectrum, only the very simplest signals are used, such as for radionavigation. Because VLF waves can
penetrate wa ter only to a depth of roughly 10 to 40 m etres (30 to 130 fe et), depending on the frequency a nd the salinity of
the water, they are used to com m unicate with submarines near the surface. (ELF is used for fully subm e r g e d v e s s e l s . )
Low Frequency or LF (som etim es called longwave) refers to Radio Frequencies (RF) in the range of 30300 kHz. In Europe, part
of the LF spectrum is used for AM broa dcast service.
M e d i u m w a v e r a d i o t r a n s m i s s i o n s ( s o m e t i m e s c a l l e d M e d i u m f r e q u e n c y o r MF) are those b etween the frequencies of 300*kHz

a n d 3 0 0 0 * k H z . T h i s b a n d h a s t o o l o w f r e q u e n c y f o r m o d e r n c o m munication.
High frequen cy (HF) radio frequencies are between 3 an d 30 MHz. This range is often called shortwave.
This is the first band usable for radio comm unication that should arrise o ur attention!
Since the ion osphere often reflects HF radio waves quite well, this range is extensively used for m e d i u m a n d l o n g r a n g e r a d i o
c o m m unication. However, suitability of this portion of the spectrum for such comm unication varies greatly with a com p l e x
combination of factors:
Sunlight/darkness at site of transm ission and reception
Transmitter/receiver proxim ity to term inator
Season
Sunspot cycle
Sola r activity
Pola r aurora
M a x i m u m usable frequency
Lowest usable high frequency
Freq uency of operation within the HF range
T h e h i g h f r e q u e n c y b a n d W A S ( t h e o r g a n i z e d r a d i o h a m society is DEAD) very popular with am ateur radio o perators, who took
advantage of direct, long-distance (often inter-continental) com m unications and the "thrill factor" resulting from making
contacts in variable conditions. Interna tional sh ortwave broadcasting utilizes this set of frequencies, as well as a seemingly
declining number of "utility" users (ma rine, aviation, m ilitary, an d diplom atic interests), who have, in recent years, been
swayed over to less volatile m e a n s o f c o m munication (for example, via satellites), but m ay m aintain HF stations after switch-
over for back-up purposes. CB radios operate in the hig her portion of the range (around 27 MHz).
10MHz is going to be the lowe st frequency we could use if professional comm unication is necessarey. Hope far UV will be the
high est :) .
T h e r a n g e b e t w e e n 1 0 a n d 1 6 MHz is the best part of the short waves an d will be exploited later!
Very high frequency (VHF) is the radio frequency range from 30 MHz (wavelength 10 m ) to 300 MHz (wavelength 1 m).
C o m mon uses for VHF are FM radio broadcast at 88108 MHz .
VHF frequencies' propagation characteristics are ideal fo r short-d istance terrestrial comm unication, with a range generally
s o m ewhat farther than line-of-sight from the transm itter (see form ula below). Unlike high frequencies (HF), the ionosphere
does not usually reflect VHF radio and thus transmissions are restricted to the local area (400km m ax) (and don't interfere with
transm i s s i o n s t h o u s a n d s o f k i l o m etres away). VHF is also less affected b y atmospheric no ise and interference from electrical
equipment than low frequencies. W hilst it is m ore easily blocked by land features than HF and lower frequencies, it is less
bothered by buildings and oth er less substantial objects than higher frequencies.
Two unusual propagation conditions ca n allow much farther range than normal. The first, tropospheric ducting, can occur in
front of and parallel to an advancing cold weather front, especially if there is a m arked difference in humidities between the
cold and warm air ma sses. A duct can form a p p r o x i m a t e l y 1 5 0 m iles (240 km with 5W.) in advance of the cold front, much like
a ve ntilation duct in a building, and VHF radio frequencies can travel along inside the duct, bending or refra cting, for hundreds
of m iles.
It is easy to construct efficient antennas for it. The band 100-1500 MHz is a golden mine for easy-to-set comm u n i c a t i o n s a n d
will be exploited later.
Ultra high frequency (UHF) designates a range (band) of electrom agnetic waves whose frequency is between 300 MHz
( W a v e l e n g t h 1 m e t e r ) a n d 3 . 0 G H z ( W avelength 10 centimetres) .
Like VHF this band allows com munication in the visible area. Above 2000MHz the transm ission could be affected b y m oistu re
in the air and other negative factors but the affection is less than in the upper bands.
(SHF) Frequency band between 3 GHz and 30 GHz

Aka microwaves. Actually the m icrowave range includes ultra-high frequency
(UHF) (0.3-3 GHz), super high frequen cy (SHF) (3-30 GHz), and extreme ly high frequency (EHF) (30-300 GHz) signals.
Generation
Microwaves can be ge nerated by a variety of means, generally divided into two categories: solid state devices and vacuum -
tube based devices. Solid state m icrowave devices are based on semiconductors such as silicon or gallium arsenide, and
include field-effect transistors (FET's), bipolar junction transistors (BJT's), Gunn diodes, an d I M P A T T d i o d e s . S p e c i a l i z e d
versions of standard transistors have been developed for higher speed which are com m o n ly used in m icrowave applications.
Microwave va riants of BJT's include the heterojunction bipolar transistor (HBT), and microwave variants of FET's include the
MESFET, the HEMT (also known as HFET), and LDMOS transistor. Vacuum tube based devices operate on the ballistic m otion of
electrons in a vacuum under the influence of controlling electric or m agnetic fields, and include the magnetron, klystron,
traveling wave tube (TW T), and gyrotron.
Microwaves a re used in bluetooth, m icrowave oven, radar and other applications.
H i g h a m plitude m icrowaves are dangerous for the health. There are real microwave weapo n s d e v e l o p e d b y b o t h R u s s i a a n d
USA during the cold war. Psychoactive frequencies are presented within the band.
Extrem ely high frequency is the highest radio frequency band. EHF runs the range of frequencies from 30 to 300 gigahertz,
above which electromagnetic radiation is consid ered to be low (or far) infrared light. This b and has a wavelength of one to te n
m illim etres, giving it the nam e millim eter band .
R a d i o s i g n a l s i n t h i s b a n d a r e e x t r e m ely prone to atmospheric attenuation, m a k i n g t h e m of very little use over long distances.
Even over relatively short distances, rain fade is a serious problem, caused when absorption by rain reduces signal strength.
T h i s b a n d i s c o m m o n ly used in radio astronomy.
Infrared
The term "infrared" refers to a broad range of frequencies, beginning at the top end of those frequencies used for
c o m m unication and e xtending up the the low frequency (red) en d of the visible spectrum . The wavelength range is from a b o u t
1 millim eter down to 750 nm. The range adjacent to the visible spectrum is called the "near infrared" and the longer
wavelength part is called "far infrared". IR radiation is assicated with vibrational energy change. If there is a chance for
vibrational redistribution of electric charge (change of th e d i p o l e m o m ent) the molecule absorbs in certain IR frequency/ies.
Freq uencies: .003 - 4 x 1 0 e x p 1 4 H z

W avelengths: 1 m m - 750 nm
Q u a n t u m energies: 0 .0012 - 1.65 eV
Visible Light
The narrow visible part of the electromagnetic spectrum corresponds to the wavelengths near the m a x i m u m of the Sun's
radiation curve. In interactions with m atter, visible light prim arily acts to set elevate electrons to higher energy levels
Freq u e n c i e s : 4 - 7 . 5 x 1 0 e x p 1 4 H z
W avelengths: 750 - 400 nm
Q u a n t u m energies: 1 .65 - 3.1 eV
Ultraviolet
The region just below the visible in wavelength is called the near ultraviolet. It is absorbed very strongly by most solid
substances, and even absorbed appreciably by air. The shorter wavelengths reach the ionization energy for m any m olecules,
so the far ultraviolet has som e o f t h e d a n g e r s a t t e n d e n t to othe r ionizing radiation. The tissue effects of ultraviolet include
sunburn, but can have some therapeutic effects as well. The sun is a strong source of ultraviolet radiation, but atm ospheric
absorption elim inates m ost of the shorter wave l e n g t h s . T h e e y e s a r e q u i t e s u s c e p t i b l e t o d a m age from ultraviolet radiation.
W elders m ust wear protective eye shields because of the uv content of welding arcs can inflam e the eyes. Snow-blin d n e s s i s
a n o t h e r e x a m ple of uv inflamation; the snow reflects uv while m ost other substances absorb it strongly.
Freq u e n c i e s : 7 . 5 x 1 0 e x p 1 4 - 3 x 1 0 e x p 1 6 H z
W avelengths: 400 nm - 10 nm
Q u a n t u m energies: 3 .1 - 124 eV
X-Rays
Are high freq uency electrom agnetic rays which are produced when the ele ctrons are suddenly decelerated - these rays are
called bremsstrahlung radiation, or "braking radiation". X-rays are also produced when ele ctrons m ake transitions between
lowe r atom ic energy levels in heavy elem ents. X-rays produced in this wa y have h ave definite energies just like other line
spectra from atom ic electrons. They are called characteristic x-ra ys since they have energies determ ined by the atom ic energy
levels.
In interactions with m atter, x-rays are ionizing radiation and produce physiologica l effects which are not observed with any
exposure of non-ionizing radiation, such as the risk of m utations or cancer in tissue.
Freq u e n c i e s : 3 x 1 0 e x p 1 6 H z u p w a r d
W a v e l e n g t h s : 1 0 n m - > downward
Q u a n t u m energies: 1 24 eV -> upward
Gam ma-Rays
G a m ma are higly energetic rays.
In interactions with m atter, ga m m a rays are ionizing radiation and produce physiological effects which are not observed with
any exposure of non-ionizing radiation, such as the risk of m utations or cancer in tissue.
Freq uencies: typically >10exp20 Hz

W avelengths: typically < 10exp-12 m
Q u a n t u m energies: typically >1 MeV
ShadowMyGeekSpace May 12th, 2006, 05:29 AM

Contains frequencies for com m o n r a d i o s e r v i c e s : h t t p : / / d e d i . m y g e e k s p a c e . c o m /~shadow/roguesci/fcc_radio.pdf
C o n t a i n s a d e t a i l e d m ap of th e radio spectrum: http://dedi.m yg eekspace.com/~shadow/roguesci/fcc_freq_allocation.pdf

The plan con spect should be expandable...
7 . 1 - W i r e l e s s I n t e r n e t , ( M o d e m s ) , ( C o m p u t e r C o m m unication), (Wireless Networks)...

I f a n y o n e h a s practical experince in this - or at least good in theory -
May him /her write the topic!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > (EMW ) 2. HF - Short W a v e s
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Short Waves (3 - 30 MHz), anyway 1,8 is often included...
Here is the b a n d p l a n f o r f r e q u e n c i e s u s e d b y a m a t e o u r s .
The best place for interference is very near these frequencies.
http://www.bfra.org/cgi-bin/index.cgi?b andplan.htm l
Here is the b andplan used for broadcast.

http://ibb7-2.ibb.gov/ibbeng/shtwave1.htm
These bands are 24/7 crowded with international broadcast services. Som e exotic radio stations are presented there.
Consider everything else military bands and do not interfere there!
Modulation: Usually SSB or som e k i n d o f e n c o d i n g i s u s e d i n H F c o m m unication.

A n t e n n a s : " T " a n d " G " a r e c o m m on listening antennas. 1/4 vertical dipole is a go od choice for the upper bands.
Y a g g i e s a n d o t h e r s o p h i s t i c a t e d a n t e n n a s a r e u s e d f o r b o t h r e c e i v i n g a n d t r a n s m itting.
Inform ation for the bands:
T h e 1 8 0 0 k H z ( 1 . 8 M H z o r 1 6 0 m e t r e b a n d ) b a nd suffers from e x t r e m e d a y t i m e D-layer absorption. Even at high radiation

angles, virtually no signal can pass through the F layer and daytime comm unication is limited to ground-wa ve coverage. At
nigh t, the D layer quickly disappears and worldwide 16 0m com m unication becom es possible via F2-layer skip. Atm ospheric
a n d m a n - m a d e n o i s e l i m it propagation of this band. Tropical an d m id-latitude thunderstorm s cause high levels of static in
s u m m e r , m a king winter evenings the best tim e to work long distance at 1.8 MHz. A proper choice of receiving anten na can
often significantly red uce the am ount of received noise while enhancing desired signals.
The 3500 kHz (3.5 MHz or 80 metre band) is the lowest HF band, which is sim ilar to 160 m in many respects. Daytime
absorption is significant, but not quite as extrem e as at 1.8 MHz. High-angle signals may penetrate to the E and F layers.
Daytim e com munication range is typically lim ited to 400 km , prim arily via ground-wave propagation. At night, signals are often
propagated halfway a round the world. As at 1.8 MHz, atm o s p h e r i c n o i s e i s a n u i s a n c e , m a king winter the m ost attra ctive
season for the 80 m .
T h e 7 0 0 0 k H z ( 7 M H z o r 4 0 m etre) band is useful for daytim e com munication up to a distance of 800 km via E and F layers.
Long distance world-wide com m unication takes place in this band through F2 layer.
10 MHz BAND
T h e 1 0 M H z o r 3 0 m etre band is uniqu e because it shares characteristics of both daytim e a n d n i g h t - t i m e b a n d s .
C o m munication up to 3000 km is typical during daytim e, and this extends halfway around the world. The band is generally
o p e n v i a F 2 o n a 2 4 - h o u r b a s i s . T h e I n t e r n a t i o n a l T e l e com m u n ication U nion (ITU) has allotted 10,100 kHz to 10,1 50 kHz to
t h e r a d i o a m ateurs in Region 3 countries.
14 MHz Band
14 is a typical daytime band.
This is the m ost useful HF part. Long distance transm ission is possible via F layers (up to 4400 km for a single hop). And short
distance via E (several hundre d k m ). With multiple hops and com bination of F and E reflection som etim es the whole world is
covered.
Majour drawback is th e e x p e n s i v e a p p a r a t u r e a n d t h e s o p h i s t i c a t e d a n t e n n a s y s t e m s.
21 and 28
Consider these to have UHF properties.
21 has too high frequency to be useful for long d i s t a n c e s . 2 8 i s a b s o l u t e l y u s e l e s s f o r m o r e t h a n 5 0 k m . . .
Anyway there is a citizen band there th at is ava ilable without any permission and nobody watches near this band.
Despite the fact that the introduction o f artificia l com m u nication satellites for long distance radio comm unication ma d e
c o m m unication more reliable and there is very little role left to be played by the ionosphere in the professional
t e l e c o m m unication networks, it still draws the a ttention of com m unication enthusiasts, arm f o r c e s a n d s p i e s . I o n o s p h e r e i s a
gift of nature. Unlike the costly artificial satellites, we need not subscribe to anybody to get access to a facility, which can
transfer our radio messages to distant parts of the world. It is worthwhile for a radio user to learn more about the io n o s p h e r e .
"Skip Zone"
Under the action of solar radiation and the hail of m eteorites, an ionized layer is formed in the upper part of the Earth's
atmosphere. In this layer, the neutral air m o l e c u l e s a r e d e c o m p o s e d i n t o i o n s a n d electro ns and the whole layer presents a
chaos of charged particles.Short wave radio signals are reflected from this layer just as light rays are reflected from the surface
of a mirror, or sound from a b arrier.Likewise, this layer can be com pared with the edge of billiard table: if the ball does not go
straight into the pocket, it can be sent o n rebound. In a situation, a radio receiver set located at a distance of 200 kilom etres
(say) away from the wireless transmitting station can not receive signals from the transm itting station. This is because the
ground waves are stopped by the Earth's curvature and the sky wave will not reach the receiver, because it bounces again m o r e
than 200 kilometres way. So some 'blind zones' are form ed and if the receiver is located in that blind zone it will receive no
signal or very weak signal. In such a situation, another station can relay the message to the target station. The distance of the
intended receiver from the transm itter is then term ed as 'skip distance'. So it is n ot always necessary that a receiving station
located nearer (than a station located further away from the transmitting station) to the transm itting station will be able to
receive its signal.
Fade-out
I t i s t h e g r a d u a l p h e n o m e n o n , that take place with the change of tim e of the day. Fadeout of radio signal is related to the
ionization gradient of the ionosphere, which decreases in absence of sunlight. Sin ce ionization is intense during day light
hours, higher frequency (like 14 MHz and 21 MHz) of the short wave spectrum can be used during daylight hours. As the night
approaches, signal strength at that higher frequency decreases. Using a frequency at the lower edge of the HF spectrum ( e . g .
7 MHz) will yield satisfactory result aga inst this fadeout.
Fading
As d istinct from fade-out, fading is the constant variatio n of the received strength of radio wave. To the listener it appears as
gradual rising and falling of the volume. The signal wax es and wanes and at tim e s e v e n d r o p s b e l o w u s a b l e v a l u e s . T h i s
p h e n o m e n o n i s m anifested chiefly in long-distance tran sm ission. It is caused by m ultiple reflections from the ionsphere which
cause two or more wa ves from the sam e transmitter travel over different paths of different lengths and hence differ in phase
and amplitude when they arrive at the receiving aerial.
Propagation:
Most of the long distance com munication results from ionisation of the F layer, the m ost applicable radio bands in the High
Freq u e n c y b e i n g 3 . 5 M H z , 7 M H z , 1 4 M H z a n d 2 1 M H z . T h e l a y e r h e i g h t m ay vary from a little over 200 km to as high as 400
t o 5 0 0 k m d e p e n d i n g o n t h e t i m e o f t h e y e a r , l a t i t u d e a n d t i m e of the day and particularly the amount of sun-spot activity.
D u r i n g t h e p e a k p e r i o d o f t h e 1 1 y e a r m a x i m u m sun spot activity cycle, propagation via the F layer extends up to a round 30
MHz
F o r r a n g e s u p t o 8 0 0 k m s u s e 7 M H z . F o r e v e r y 1 6 0 k m s o f r a n g e a b o v e 8 0 0 k m s add 1 MHz to the frequency.
Radio waves travel at the speed of light i.e. 300,000 km p e r s e c o n d a n d b e c a u s e wavelen gth and frequency are related you
can easily translate from wavelength to frequency by the relationship:
Freq uency in MHz = 3 00/W a v e l e n g t h i n m e t r e s
For exam ple,a wavelength of 25 metres gives: 12 MHz
Conclusion:
HF could be fun for experim enting or last resort backup - but is generally useless if modern com munication is available.
Modern short wave radio transceivers covering the "ama teour" frequencie s a r e a v a i l a b l e o n t h e m a ket - but there is a need for
sim ple construction - that could be made at hom e - to be "created".
For now such sim ple and effective solution is m issing...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > (EMW ) 3. 10-16 MHz
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10-16 MHz strip is the most useful part of HF. It offers all-over-the world range espacially at day hours.
1. Used Apparature
U s u a l l y g o o d HF transciever is im p o s s i b l e t o b e m a d e a t h o m e .
If I am wrong I welcom e everybody to offer sch ematics!
Anyway, (usually expensive) models like this : DX-77T
http://www.alinco.com /usa.htm l
Are available on the m arket.
2.Modulation
Am plitude Modulation (AM)
AM is a form of m odulation in which the amplitude of a carrier wave is varied in direct prop ortion to that of the m odulating
signal. In AM you have carrier weave (F), carrier plus m odulating (F+m) and carrier m i n u s m o d u l a t i n g ( F - m ) .
E x a m ple:
Carrier wave 10MHz, m odulating - 3~5 kHz (for sound signal) .
== (10000 - 3)kHz; 10000kHz; (10000 + 3)kHz
AM is a standard for short waves broadcast.
Sing l e - s i d e b a n d M o d u l a t i o n ( S S B )
O n e m ethod of producing an SSB signal is to remove one of the sidebands via

filtering, leaving only either th e upper sideband (USB) or less com m only the lower sideband (LSB). Most often, the carrier is
reduced (suppressed) or rem oved entirely.
W ith other words (10000 + 3)kHz is left.
A s s u m i n g b o t h s i d e b a n d s a r e s y m m etric, no information is lost in the process. Since the final RF a mplification is now
concentrated in a single sideband, the effective power o utput is greater than in normal AM (the carrier and redundant sideba n d
acco unt for well over half of th e power output of an AM transm itter). Though SSB uses substantially less bandwidth and powe r,
it cannot be dem o d u l a t e d b y a s i m ple envelope detector like standard AM.
SSB is the modulation - most often used for sh ort waves radio telephony.
Most m odern transcie vers work on SSB.
Freq uency Modulation (FM)
In FM, frequency of the carrier wave is varied by the amplitude o f the mo dulating signal. FM is not used for short wa ves.
W herever used for VHF the de pth of th e m odulation usually varies from 5 to 100kHz.
On FM, AM or SSB it is possible to encode digital signals - which is an interesting alternative of radio telephony.
3. Antennas
As a rule - the antennas for 10-16 use d by non-governm e n t e n t h u s i a s t s a r e h o m e-m a d e . Y a g g i e s a r e p o s s i b l e c h o i c e f o r l o n g

distance work. Nadenenko dipole has wide spectrum (O,78l < length of the wave < 2l) (l = dipole length) but is quite easily
spotted (your neighbours are going to "dislike" such weird thing on the roof :) ).
Half-wave or 1/4 wave dipols are often used.
Practically the length of the antenna could be less than 1/4 wave, for adjustment of the re sistance in this case - a coil is placed
i n t h e b a s e o f t h e a n t e n n a - ( 2 - 4 c m i n d i a m eter - 10-50 winds). (The num ber of the winds is adjusted experimentally).
Anyway, do not expect very much from such antenna...
HF antennas are generally horizontal because horizonta l dipols have dire cted em ission - very useful for ionosphere reflection.
HF com m unication is very difficult to be untraca ble. Size of the a ntennas, powers used for reliable work (no less than 50-100W)
and the short spectrum are majour drawbacks. Anyway, if very directed antanna is used - which does not emit towards the
ground - it will be im possible (in theory) to catch without airborn assistance...

Anyway, if ve ry directed antanna is used - which does not em it towards the ground - it will be im possible (in theory) to catch
without airborn assistance...One word: Multilate ration.

I f y o u a r e o n a h i g h a l t i t u d e s p o t a n d e m it only upwards, there is not a chance to be detected by ground receiving stations.
ShadowMyGeekSpace May 17th, 2006, 03:18 PM

I f y o u a r e o n a h i g h a l t i t u d e s p o t a n d e m it only upwards, there is not a chance to be detected by ground receiving
stations.Even if you're bouncing off of the ionosphere, multiple recievers can be used to pinpoint your location, the only
difference the ionosphere m a k e s i s y o u h a v e t o d o a l i t t l e b i t m o r e g e o m etry, and spread out the recievers a little m ore. You
have the fact that you are stationary working against yo u. If the transmitter was moving, I would totally agree.

Bouncing from the ionosphere gives 800 km "silent" radius. So, the first one who is going to "detect" you is at least 800 km
away.
Not to m ention the fa ct that when you vary the angle of the directed antenna (yaggie for example), you vary the length of the
silent zone...
And the processes in the ionosphere are "sporadic" - it is not a perfect m irror...
But you are RIGHT! W orking on stationary short waves station is a sitting duck!
Do you understand wireless computer comm unication and help write the 7.1 - by the way :) .

Bouncing from the ionosphere gives 800 km "silent" radius. So, the first one who is going to "detect" you is at least 800 km
away.
Not to m ention the fa ct that when you vary the angle of the directed antenna (yaggie for example), you vary the length of the
silent zone...
And the processes in the ionosphere are "sporadic" - it is not a perfect m irror...
The silent radius really isnt a problem , because the tracking would be done from the area you're transm itting to anyways, its a
m oot point. I'm a s s u m ing the y already nailed the reciever and are now working on locating the transm itter
But you are RIGHT! W orking on stationary short waves station is a sitting duck!
And bingo was his nam e - o .
Do you understand wireless computer comm unicationBe m ore specific, are we talking generic W iFi(2.4 and 5ghz), or packet
over HAM radio? I understand the fundamentals of both, but the protocols are two different things, and my understanding of
p a c k e t o v e r h a m radio's proto col (half duplex) is not ve ry good.
and help write the 7.1 - by the way :) .I'd be glad to help where ever I can, what is the 7.1? Are you referring to http://
www.roguesci.org/theforum /75 932-post3.htm l ? I could do that over the next day or so.

W iFi(2.4 and 5ghz) (are there other?) - professional system s o n ly .
The ham packet is not very interesting (to m y m ind)...
7.1 is exactly what yo u spotted. W hy d on't you write the whole article!
(only name it
~ (EMW) 7.1 {Your Title Here} ~
s o a ll the radio threads are easily available)
Don't worry if it takes more than a few days to write a good article ...

W iFi(2.4 and 5ghz) (are there other?) - professional system s o n ly .
The ham packet is not very interesting (to m y m ind)...
7.1 is exactly what yo u spotted. W hy d on't you write the whole article!
(only name it
~ (EMW) 7.1 {Your Title Here} ~
s o a ll the radio threads are easily available)
Don't worry if it takes more than a few days to write a good article ...
Alrig ht. I'll work on that tom orrow. Expect it up in 1 to 3 days.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > (EMW ) 7.1 W ireless networking
(WiFi)
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ShadowMyGeekSpace May 21st, 20 06, 09:4 7 AM

(EMW ) Wireless Networking (W iFi)
W iFi is more com m only known as "W ireless Networking" is covered by the IEEE 802.11 Specifications (http://grouper.ieee.org/
g r o u p s / 8 0 2 / 1 1 / ) , a n d r e s i d e o n t h e 2 . 4 a n d 5 g h z f r e q u e n c i e s . D u e t o t h e l a c k o f i m plem e n t a t i o n ( a n d l a c k o f k n o w l e d g e o n
m y part) for the 5ghz standard (802.11a), that will not be covered.
Freq u e n c i e s a n d C h a n n e l s
8 0 2 . 1 1 b a n d 8 0 2 . 1 1 g s h a r e t h e s a m e frequencies in the 2.4ghz(12.5cm w a v e l e n g t h ) r a n g e . T h e c h a n n e l s f o r 8 0 2 . 1 1 b a n d g
are overlapping channels with the center frequencies set ~5MHz apart. The spectral m ask for 802.11x is attenuated by 30+ dB
from it's peak strength at 11Mhz from the center, and 50+dB from peak at 22MHz
Channel 1 - 2.412 GHz

Channel 6 - 2.437 GHz**
Channel 9 - 2.452 GHz*
Channel 10 - 2.457 GHz*
Channel 11 - 2.462 GHz**
Only channels 1-11 can be used in North America (witho ut modifying drivers or ha rdware) legally. C h a n n e l s 1 - 1 3 a r e l e g a l i n
Euro p e , a n d a l l c h a n n e l s a r e l e g a l i n J a p a n .
* Microwave ovens operate on ~2.45GHz, so they wreck havoc on com m unications through all chan nels, m ost notably on
channels 8 to 11. As W iFi shares these frequen cy ranges, signal strength can vary, and is influenced by hum idity du e to the
fact that 2.4ghz R F is absorbe d by water through dielectric heating.
* * C h a n n e l 6 a n d 1 1 a r e t h e d e f a u l t f r e q u e n c i e s f o r m ost WiFi networkin g equipment. It is recom m e n d e d t h a t y o u c h a n g e t o a

separate cha n n e l t o a v o i d d e g r a d e d p e r f o r m a n ce.
802.11b
802.11b has a m axim um raw throughput of 11 megabits per second, and scales back to 5.5, 2, and 1Mbit/s depending on
signal streng th. Devices m ay receive burstable bandwidth of up to 44Mbps. The actual bandwidth o ffered after proto col
overhead(CSMA/CA) is ~6m bit over TC P a n d ~ 7 m bit over U DP at it's 11Mbit data rate. The modulation technique used for
802.11b products is CCK, a slight variation of C DMA.
802.11g
8 0 2 . 1 1 g h a s a m a x i m u m raw throughput of 54m bits per second, and scales back to 48, 36, 24, 18, 12, 11, 9, 6, 5.5, 2, and
1Mbit/s depending on signal strength. Proprietary technology exists to get the throughput up to 125Mbit/s, for more info
g o o g l e " S p e e d b o o s t e r." The actual bandwidth offered after protocol overhead is 24.7Mbit/s for TCP or 30.4Mbit/s for UDP, at
the 54Mbit data rate. The m odulation technique used for 802.11g is OFDM for the 6, 9, 12, 18, 24, 36, 48, and 54Mbit rates.
The 802.11b speeds are modulated using the 802.11 m ethod, CCK.
S o m e quick security info
SSID: An SSID is the "network nam e" for a wire less network. Vendors usually default to their name , such as Linksys's products
having the default SSID of "Linksys". Disabling "SSID Broadcast" removes the SSID from the Beacon Fram e , m a k i n g i t
im possible for the average sheeple to connect to your wireless n etwork. The SSID can still be collected from your ne twork with
the correct tools, such as ethe real (http://ethereal.com ).
MAC Filtering : M o s t e q u i p m e n t a l l o w s y o u t o a d d M A C a d d r e s s e s t o t h e a u t h o r i z e d d e v i c e l i s t k e p t o n s o m e access points/

routers. If a MAC add ress isn't on the list, it doesn't recieve any acknowledgem ents from the access point/router when it
requests access. Anyone with a basic n etwork analyzer such as Ethereal (http://www.ethereal.com ), ettercap (http://
ettercap.sf.net), or Cain and Abel (http://www.oxid.it/cain.html) and knowledge of configuring a network device will beable to
bypass this by sniffing and spoofing an authorized device's MAC address.
W EP : Short for "W ired Equivalent Privacy", WEP is an insecure encryption solution for wireless, meant to keep other clients off
of your wireless network, and to stop them from sniffing your data, using an RC4 cipher that has a few issues. Several tools
are available to crack W EP encryption, such as Airsnort, (http://airsnort.sf.net) W EPcrack, (http://wepcrack.sf.net) Aircrack,
(http://freshm eat.net/projects/aircrack /) and Kismet (http://www.kism etwireless.n et/) (These are not the only ones, sim ply the
m ost popular) For m ore info, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wired_Equivalent_P rivacy
W PA: Short for "W i-Fi Protecte d Access", W PA is a semi-secure e ncryption solution for wireless networks, using the R C4 cipher.
Aircrack will break WP A. For more info, see http ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W i-Fi_Protected_Access
W PA-2: Also known as 802.11 i, W PA-2 is the m ost secu re encryption solution for wireless networks introduced yet as far as I
know, using the AES encryption cipher rather than the RC4 encryption cipher. For m ore info see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
IEEE_802.11
---
If any errors are foun d i n t h e a b o v e p o s t , p l e a s e c o n t a c t m e . I f a n y q u e s t i o n s e x ist, please contact me. And m ore important,
if yo u think your lawn gnom e s m ay be hacking your Wifi, please contact m e.
simply RED May 21st, 20 06, 02:1 7 PM

Very good (just nothing else to add)!
For all: stay tuned, VHF - which is among the m ost im p o r t a i n t i s s u e s h e r e - c o m i n g s o o n !
sprocket May 21st, 20 06, 08:3 9 PM

R e g a r d i n g m icrowave ovens and WiFi networks, I think the ovens are extensively shielded so as not to leak significant
a m ounts of radiation. However, should one operate an exposed microwave emitter the effects could be quite disruptive given
the high power (~1kW ).
I tested what effect a normal operating microwave oven has on W iFi networks using my laptop and access point. First I set the
channel to 9 and placed the laptop 50 cm from the oven. Noise level was on average -95 dBm with t h e o v e n o f f a n d - 9 2 d B m
with it on. Th is isn't enough to cause a ny noticeable performance degradation.
Operating the microwave oven with the hatch open would be one way to find out how effective these ovens are at disrupting
wireless networks, but I'm not quite com fortable with such high radiation levels. I suspect it has the potential to perm anently
d a m a g e W iFi equipment and other ele ctronics at a few m eters range. A better question is how effe ctive it is at disrupting W iFi
networks. Ho w "noisy" is a microwave oven em itter? Can you ma ke it more noisy by AM/FM?
ShadowMyGeekSpace May 21st, 20 06, 09:0 2 PM

In m y experiance the faraday cage on alot of microwave ovens allow a sm all am ount of 2.45ghz static out into the air. I can
tell you any tim e I use either of the microwaves in this house, the noise floor jum p s u p e n o u g h t o d i s c o n n e c t m e .
As for disrupting a wireless network, it would be m uch easier to just install two wireless devices or so into a laptop and flood the
air with packet replays using aireplay (http://freshmeat.net/projects/aircrack/) and sending out arp deauth requests with
void11 (www.wlsec.net/void11/). Assum ing you set everything up correctly, you'd be flooding the ch annel with data to the point
it's at or above its m a x i m u m datarate, and the n you're deauthenticating the clients, which forces them to reauthenticate with
the wireless router (and adds m ore bandwidth use). The network would com e to a halt.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > (EMW ) 4. U ltraShort W a v e s
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VHF
100 - 1500 MHz is the most useful part of the VHF. 30-100 has m ajour d rawbacks. Apparature for 30-100 is hardly available
also it is difficult to m a k e g o o d m obile antennas for the range.
Propagation:
VHF propagates in the "visible area". Long propagations are very rare and useless for com munication.
(approximated for urban areas)
1-5 W "gum m y" (low quality) handheld antenna = 2-3 km
1-5 W h i g h q u a l i t y h a n d h e l d a n t e n n a = 3 - 4 k m
1-5 W h i g h q u a l i t y h a n d h e l d a n t e n n a ( 3 0 m e t e r s a b o v e t h e g r o u n d ) = u p t o 2 0 k m
1-5 W g r o u n d p a l n e a n t e n n a ( g r o u n d l e v e l ) = 4 - 8 k m
1-5 W g r o u n d p l a n e ( 3 0 m a b o v e g r o u n d) = 20-30 km
5-50 W " 3 * 5 / 8 " a n t e n n a ( 3 0 m a b o v e g r o u n d ) = 3 0 - 1 0 0 k m
50 W 5-10 element yaggie (100 m above ground) = up to 300 km
Apparature:
High quality handheld transcievers are available on the market (for 120- 175 MHz for exam ple). The handheld transciever is
the best choice here. It easily becomes mobile station by conecting to the power supply and antenna of a car.
W hen buying handheld transciever be on guard.
It should have:
- long transm itting range (at least 30 MHz - fro m 1 3 0 - 1 6 0 f o r e x a m ple)
- option for external power supply
- good display
- d e t a c h a b l e a n t e n n a with BNC
- DT M F e n c o d i n d
A n t e n n a s u s e d b y e n t h u s i a s t s a r e u s u a l l y h o m e m a d e . G r o u n d p lane is the easiest - yet well working antenna for both 144 and
430. Yaggie is a standard choice for long distances. There are com plicated systems like "yaggies in phase" or "m irth" that are
seldom used .
Modulation:
FM is used here with 5 kHz deviation. The other good thing is digital m odulation (on FM or SSB or directly).
Callsigns:
Usually:
Everyone in the VHF network has individual callsign. For example police or fire brigade work with numbers. "175 calling 12".
R a d i o a m ate ours use d c o m b i n a t i o n o f s y m b o l s a n d n u m b e r s ( l i k e " L Z 1 K I L " ) .
Repaters:
T h e r e a r e r e p e a t e r s u s e d b y s o m e a m ateours and majority of radio pirates. 144 - 146 and the upper band. See information in
the internet or from s o m e a m a t e o u r o r p i r a t e f o r t h e f r e q u e n c i e s o f t h e r e p e a t e r s . M a y b e u s e f u l .
Practical issues:
T h e r e i s g e n e r a l l y n o p r o b l e m to transm it in the range of 144- 146 MHz. The only thing to worry about is beeing listened to :) .
For this case, transm it near th is range. For exam p l e 1 4 6 . 1 0 . O r u s e s o m e k i n d o f e n c o d i n g.
S c a n a n d m ap the wh ole range your ra d i o u s e s . C h o s e n o n - p o p u l a t e d f r e q u e n c i e s .
DTMF encoding is the sim plest way to turn the radio into rem o t e d e t o n a t o r . W h e n the DTMF unlock ing signal is received, a
s i g n a l i s s e n d t o t h e s p e a k e r . C a b l e s a r e c o n e c t e d f r o m the external speaker connector to an am plifier, wh ich turns on a rellay
- and the relay short circuits the detonator.
Practice is the key to effective radio com m unication. W ithout pra ctice noone is able to work well "on air"...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Hidden data on colour laser prints
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http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/05/the_davinci_code_try_the_da_xe.html
Seems that the majority of colour laser printers actually encode the serial number onto each and every print out, using tiny yellow dots that are barely visible to the eye even under a blue light!
Worthy of note for many reasons...

eff.org actually had a story on that a few months ago. http://www.eff.org/Privacy/printers/ is the story URL, it even lists printers that do it and how to decode them.
tmp May 25th, 2006, 02:23 PM

I have to wonder how much U.S. taxpayers' money, likely in the form of government
contracts, was shelled out to these companies. Sucking on that cop-dick again !
I'll make sure I never purchase a printer from any company on that list. Talk about
a built-in paper trail !
nbk2000 May 25th, 2006, 06:09 PM

It's intended as a way of getting your hardware to snitch on you to the police.
But what about using it against your own enemies?
Knowing that it's there, and possibly able to be hacked, you could get a printed page from your target, extract the embedded code, and program another printer to duplicate it for printing out something that'd get
your enemy in deep-shit...like a threat letter against the President. :p
Or, in an office setting, find out who's printing out naughty stuff. ;)

Having looked a bit further, it turns out that these codes are hard-wired into the printers, after the actual image is sent to the printer. However, I'm going to try printing some very, very fine yellow dots all over a
sheet then see if I can get it laser printed. I went to a copy shop today, and the guy there knew about it (mostly, he thouht it was just the serial number printed out), which suprised me a bit, but the two girls were
amazed.
Oh, and you can see them really easily under a strong UV light from the front surface. The printer guy showed it me, it's better than a blue light when looking under normal conditions, and the dots look far larger.

However, I'm going to try printing some very, very fine yellow dots all over a sheet then see if I can get it laser printed.
Exactly this's what I was thinking of. I believe if one can determine the algorithm they use to encode their serial number / manufacturer name on the page, it's possible to circumvent the identification of the data
which is printed by the printer hardware.
Maybe it's also possible to change it programmatically. AFAIK, all complex printers are service menus which can be entered into by typing certain key combinations via printer's key pad.
In my experience, I can get into Xerox combo printer's service mode, by keying certain combinations. Maybe there are some similar features in those printers too. Regards.
nbk2000 May 25th, 2006, 10:32 PM

Perhaps a program that intercepts any files being sent to the printer spool, and that adds randomly generated yellow dots to the file in a similiar grid as your printer, would be just the thing to confuse Big Brother?

If you would check the URL I posted, It's already been decoded.
http://www.eff.org/Privacy/printers/docucolor/index.php#program
nbk2000 May 26th, 2006, 07:02 AM

Who are you referring to, Geekspace?
When asking someone to do something, you need to make clear who it is that you are referring to, as more than one person has posted a response to this thread.
Because if you're referring to me, I knew about this since October 19, 2005, after it was discussed on schneiers security blog.
akinrog May 26th, 2006, 09:49 AM

If you would check the URL I posted, It's already been decoded.
http://www.eff.org/Privacy/printers/docucolor/index.php#program
I was referring to a general application, most probably a printer hook which can intercept all printing jobs sent to the printer. And the link you gave covers only docucolor (Xerox) printers.
I mean if one doesn't know how the manufacturer of a specific printer encoded the identifiers, it shall be hard to write an application for that specific printer and it might be futile to try to render the code illegible /
wrong and they might even have a crc check or something to make it difficult to tamper with. But a real problem with programmatic approach is most probably printer manufacturer prints its serial number etc. by
means of printer's firmware, not through device driver, and it might be hard to solve this problem. Regards

NBK: I was referring to akinrog.
As for intercepting and changing spool tasks, it could be done. Sniff the data for the spool task off the line in promisc mode (and use ARP poisoning if it's a switched network), immediately inject some spoofed
packets into the network cancelling the spool task, then broadcast your own task.
The modification of the spool task might require making a raster image with the text on it and then depositing the dots, which could be done via libpng.
Someone with experiance using libpng, pcap and raw sockets could probably code it in a few days.

...for the spool task off the line in promisc mode (and use ARP poisoning if it's a switched network), immediately inject some spoofed packets into the network cancelling the spool task, then broadcast your own
task.
The modification of the spool task might require making a raster image with the text on it and then depositing the dots, which could be done via libpng.
If printing of the identifying information is carried out by means of firmware (i.e. the permanent software in printer hardware), then it might be difficult to tamper with the printed information.
And it's not clear from the articles linked to that article, whether or not they use just device driver (installed on the PC) or firmare of the printer. If the latter is the case, then even though one intercepts the
spooling process, it seems difficult to prevent the machine printing the code. But if the former is the case, then it's feasible to intercept printing process.
In the latter case, one can print over his/her own code on the printer printed code to confuse investigators. Regards.

It's built into the hardware, according to the EFF.
The idea of adding dots is tricky, since they are so small, and you would therefore have to print at a much higher resolution than normal. However, a hack to the print spooler or print server would be the way to go.
You then can't forget about it. However, see my footnote.
As for the decoding, only one printer range, the DocuPrint, has been decoded, and I bet that was "someone who knew". I have now looked at two different ones, and they are totally different. The Citizen range use a
huge code, and the other one's from an unknown machine type.
Here is the results of a DocuColor print I got hold of. It worked perfectly, but I decided not to leave the serial number intact:
DocuColor pattern interpretation
This is an interpretation of the following dot pattern:
111111
123456789012345
7 oooo ooo ooooo
6o
5 oo
4 o oo oo
3o
2 o oo oo
1 o o o oo
0 o ooo o
This interpretation is based on reverse engineering, and may not be complete or current for every DocuColor model version. Xerox Corporation has no connection with this program, and does not warrant its
correctness.
Parity mismatch for row 5.

Parity mismatch for column 1.
Correctable error at row 5 and col 1
Making correction and processing corrected matrix:
111111
123456789012345
7 oooo ooo ooooo
6o
5 o oo
4 o oo oo
3o
2 o oo oo
1 o o o oo
0 o ooo o
Printer serial number: 000054 [or 00000054]
Date: May 19, 2006
Time: 17:20
Column 15 value: 0
What is very interesting is that these dots are clearly visible under UV, even on a plain yellow background! Adding random yellow dots may not help at all! Note that it was a dull yellow, rather than full yellow, but
run tests before you rely on it!

What I'm thinking is that by printing an image, you could deposit your own dots. If needed, throw yellow on the whole paper. You could get it JUST right by messing with opacity and filling in the yellow layer of the
image.

What is very interesting is that these dots are clearly visible under UV, even on a plain yellow background! Adding random yellow dots may not help at all! Note that it was a dull yellow, rather than full yellow, but
run tests before you rely on it!
Your statement made me suspicious of the possibility the yellow dots everybod is referring to, might be a special fluorescent (sp?) dye, which is especially printed by the machine.
And since the amount of each code prints requires so little paint, maybe there is a special device which only prints these codes, which does not need refilling. Regards.
Chris The Great May 28th, 2006, 02:08 AM

That was my first thought, that they might use a special little "hole punch" to put the dots on. In which case disabling it would be very simple if you don't mind dissasembling ones thousand dollar laser printer.
However, at the same time, I have my doubts about it being a seperate thing. I'm really not qualified to have an educated opinion on this.
I'm just glad it's only colour laser printers that have this, so I don't have to worry about my B&W printer slapping it's serial number and date on everything.
nbk2000 May 28th, 2006, 06:14 AM

You can't be sure of that unless you've conducted tests of your BW printer, too.
How many years did this sneakiness go unknown?
And it may not be dots. What about subtle flaws in the way the text is printed?
Like shifted raster lines, spurious flaws at the serifs, no ink in certain places in certain common letter groups that'll be in almost any sentence in a given language, etc.
You can only eliminate that which you know of.

You can't be sure of that unless you've conducted tests of your BW printer, too.
I am assuming that if the same technology was in B&W printers we would have heard about it by now(I know I would of). The technology was introduced apparently in 1995 by Canon when they discovered their
printers were great for counterfeiting.
http://www.boingboing.net/2004/11/22/color_laser_printers.html
The fact that this technology is in nearly all colour printers including ones that can't convincingly counterfeit a blank piece of paper leads me to believe that eventually all printers will have this technology and that
the government will have a database enabling them to instantly know who printed any documents.
It looks like cutting letters out of newspapers will be coming back into vogue soon.
nbk2000 May 29th, 2006, 07:57 AM

I think dot-matrix printers may make a comeback. ;)
Seriously though, this is just part of the military/industrial complexes plans for universal persistant surveillance.
From cradle to grave, you'll be managed like cattle, for the sole purpose of consumption of goods as a consumer for the profit of the industrial corporations that run the world.
And any country that gets out of line in refusing to buy our goods gets the military part of the equation on its ass.

From cradle to grave, you'll be managed like cattle,
And just like cattle they will have no idea of the ultimate truths behind their very existence.
I can see them all in my minds eye; standing in line, happy, content, well fed, and chewing on their designer label cuds. Out of it on overpriced, unnecessary, and (most importantly) compliance forming
prescription drugs they will all happily follow their personal Judas goat of choice to a FOX affiliate advertised, Halliburton built, tax payer funded 're-education' facility where just like in AA they will learn
about how powerless thay are over their own lives and will then choose voluntarily to surrender what little control they have left for the betterment of society.
So am I a glass half full type of guy, or what?
nbk2000 May 29th, 2006, 04:00 PM

Half-empty and like it like that. :)

What I'm pissed off about this issue, if a geniune criminal / counterfeiter uses such machines to do something ugly, I bet s/he shall use second hand or most probably a stolen device, which shall not help
government officials at all.
And as far as I observe, this is rather a measure to herd the cattle not to stop criminals doing nasty things :mad: . Regards

What I'm pissed off about this issue, if a geniune criminal / counterfeiter uses such machines to do something ugly, I bet s/he shall use second hand or most probably a stolen device, which shall not help
government officials at all.
And as far as I observe, this is rather a measure to herd the cattle not to stop criminals doing nasty things :mad: . Regards
It's that way for anything. If I want to shoot someone, am I going to use my legally owned handgun, or am I going to buy one off a corner which is going to be traced back to some old guy who lost it when his house
was robbed?
If I want to post some kiddie porn(hypothetical question only people), am I going to do it from my own connection, or am I going to get into the car, and go find an open wireless network in the next town?
Think of the children my ass :rolleyes:, these laws and "features" in our technology are just there to give big brother an eye over little brother. :( It's too bad they make laws that harm the law abiding citizens,
turning them into criminals.
nbk2000 May 30th, 2006, 08:02 PM

Governments can only exert unlimited power on criminals, not 'good' citizens. Therefore, it's in the interest of governments to pass enough laws that anyone can be labeled a criminal at the governments whim.

Governments can only exert unlimited power on criminals, not 'good' citizens. Therefore, it's in the interest of governments to pass enough laws that anyone can be labeled a criminal at the governments whim.
Well put nbk2000. Sad, but true.
selo July 7th, 2006, 01:55 PM

I checked my color laser printer and got nothing suspecious under UV light.
Under normal light I saw some colored dot-pattern (not just yellow dots) nearly on the center of the paper. Do these dots are the encoded serial number?
I checked also the B&W Laser and Inkjet printers I have, I got nothing (under UV nor white light).
But who cares! If they get my printer ID, they can't catch me. :)
nbk2000 July 8th, 2006, 03:49 AM

Masking is another technique that can be used to prevent tracing via hidden dots.
Imagine you need to print out a copy of someones signature onto a false document.
Rather than running the whole sheet through the printer as-is, you overlay it with another sheet that has a hole cut through it in the place where the signature needs to go.
Now the disposable overlay gets the dots, with maybe a couple on the signature, but presumably not enough to make a positive ID. :p

The masking idea would work if the printer didn't always jam with two sheets. Perhaps using tracing paper as the masking sheet would work. Total area required is only 2 by 3 inches, though, so anything bigger
would give a complete result, and even a partial would sometimes be enough.
Got to say, I am coming to the conclusion that it is a seperate UV dye or something, because on my tests, the yellow ink doesn't glow under UV, but the tiny yellow dots do! They are still far harder to see, but I'm
quite sure that they are there. I'm going to ask next time I get a toner cartridge refilled, as the guys who use them every day would be likely to know.
notmebug July 13th, 2006, 06:49 AM

Got to say, I am coming to the conclusion that it is a seperate UV dye or something, because on my tests, the yellow ink doesn't glow under UV, but the tiny yellow dots do!
Clearly, if this is the case, the solution is either to print everything you intend to slip by in similarly UV-reactive ink, or find a way to empty this ink before printing anything.
(Or buying a printer which you know to be "safe," which is also good.)
h2o235 November 7th, 2006, 09:49 PM

Or buying a printer which you know to be "safe," which is also good.)
I would think that once a printer was considered safe and that information was made public Big Brother would put a stop to that mighty fast
My thoughts on this matter are, use it for the deed as needed, toss it out and replace with another of the same make / model, do not use the same printer for every day printing eather,
Printers can be had of the ink jet variety very cheap, its only a matter of time before laser printers are the same

Easy way to check. Place your suspect print-out onto your flatbed scanner and do a high-res scan of a square inch or so of white paper. Now do an CMKY split in your paint package. This shows the dot pattern really
quickly and easily.

Hi-res being 600DPI or higher, I'm assuming?
I saw somewhere a modified flatbed scanner that someone had made to use only blue LED's, for visualizing these tracker dots. A search should reveal it.
An idea that I had, based on this, was to use a modified scanner that'd use IR LED's to be able to scan for watermarks, so that a counterfeiter could copy that security feature as well. :p

IR scanning is something where a modified digital camera CCD sensor would shine. They are very sensitive in the IR spectrum, and they use filters to remove some. There are some people who have modified the
cameras to take shots like a scanner.
As for dedicated IR scanners, that sounds like an extremly rare ($$) piece of hardware.
As for scanning a piece of paper for the dots, I would think the scanner resolution would have to be at least as great as the printed DPI.

Sorry, for clarity, I used 1200 DPI. You can, of course, go much higher with most scanners these days, but I'm not sure how the interpolation might change things. At this res, the dots are clearly visible when you
look, and the colour separations work great.
Altroman January 3rd, 2007, 06:26 PM

Most consumer-grade CCDs have awful near-IR response on purpose - to prevent chromatic aberration, however there is still a decent (5%+ responsivity) in the near-IR. So you could replace the lamp with a
bunch of high-power IR LEDs and you should get a reasonable image. Powerful IR LEDs which emit in the 940nm band are quite cheap thesedays, courtesy of the IR remote market.
Note that the near-IR waveband is very different from the mid- and longwave (thermal) IR bands, which do require pricey detectors and special IR-transmissive optics.
nbk2000 July 17th, 2007, 11:49 AM

An MIT website about hidden printer dot-codes:
http://www.seeingyellow.com/

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Expedient 12g pistol Blueprint
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pop5m3 June 7th, 2006, 05:15 AM

blue prnt for A 12 Gau ge Pistol form E x p e d i e n t H o m e m a de Firearms by P.A. Luty
http://rapidshare.de/files/224 25198/Expedient_12g-pistol.rar.htm l
Password : www.roguesci.org

S o m eone's put some work into that, what with typing it all up nicely and drawing the pictures again. Nice first post.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Bump Keys -- How to obtain?
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corwin June 8th, 2006, 03:09 PM

I'm looking to obtain a bump key or a 999 key, and am having trouble locating sources or instructions on how to make (I w ould rather buy one if I can, but if making it is more
prudent I might go that path instead.)
I work at an Ace Hardware in America, and our key machine is only capable of making a copy to any accurate degree, I've never actually heard of 1-9 settings until coming to
this site.(It merely traces the key with one side and cuts w ith the other). I w ould also appreciate any advice on w hat store to go to to get one made or how to make one with a
semi-automatic key copy machine I have at my store. (Don't know the actual name beyond that)
My preference would be sc1 and kw1 bumpkeys.
aikon June 8th, 2006, 06:59 PM

read, read, read...
http://ww w.lockpicking101.com/
JakeGallows June 8th, 2006, 07:48 PM

Yeah lockpicking101.com is a fantastic site for learning about lock picking and bypass, though all they'll really say about bumpkeys is that making your own is the best way.
That said it is really the best w ay to learn about it but for the sake of completeness let me fill in some details:
You can buy a bump hammer (not necessary in my opinion and a masterlock bump key from lockpicks.com > Lock By-Pass Tools > KE-Bump Kinetic Energy Bumping Starter
Kit
You can also buy KW1 and SC1 keys from them by supposedly you have to be a repossessor, locksmith or other qualified personnel. It is likely though that you could social
engineer your way into one of those.
If you work at ace and your key duplicator is simple (i.e. one that you have control over) you could go to home depot, target, w herever and buy a lock with the key you want
that has a "9" cut, then use your machine to cut a "9" in each of the positions that you need. Make sense?
You can also buy "depth and space" keys on eBay (or other sites) which include 0-9 keys that you could then duplicate.
Any of the above suggestions will still require you to file down the tip and shoulder in order to make it work as promised... Hope that helps.
aikon June 9th, 2006, 05:30 AM

Yeah lockpicking101.com is a fantastic site for learning about lock picking and bypass, though all they'll really say about bumpkeys is that making your own is the best way...
Spoon feeding once again:
http://ww w.toool.nl/index-eng.php
You w ill find a pdf and a video (600mb).

Making a bump key is not that difficult, but if you're willing to pay for them (a high price) you'll find online shops that sell them.
Google is your friend.
dichotomous August 20th, 2006, 11:32 PM

For those like me who don't have the necessary tools to make bump keys, I gathered that ordering depth keys is the way to go. Then one can use the key cut at the lowest
depth as a bump key.
USE
The difficulty I've encountered though, was that even after I gave the keymaker the exact type of key I wanted (and I actually had to explain the depth key concept to the guy
as well) he said that he w ould need to know the depth. I've taken that to mean the number of standard depths on the key, something that another thread in this forum shed
some light on.
Did I interpret that correctly?
PARAGRAPH
In the other thread ( http://www .roguesci.org/theforum/tools-techniques-plans/4878-how-open-mechanical-high-security-locks-bump-key-method.html?highlight= bump+ key )
it is mentioned that various keys have different numbers of standard depths (ie 7,9) So my question is how many standard depths are on Best keys? (I assume all Best keys
have the same no)
BREAKS
With that info and with the exact type of key, is there anything else the keymaker needs to know to finally be able to cut a set of depth keys?
NBK2000
anonymous411 August 22nd, 2006, 10:42 PM

I'd rather master the art of making and using improvised tools than have a crapload of incriminating hardware lying around. Who's going to fault you for having a few odd strips
of metal on you compared with the grief you'd get for schlepping around a full complement of SoutOrds or a big-ass ring of bump keys? Obvious.
Besides, in my opinion, social engineering beats B&E hands down. It's far better to talk your way into wherever you want to be than do something flagrantly stupid.
Or: don't forge a key, just convince someone to hand you one. :)
JakeGallows August 22nd, 2006, 11:42 PM

When you get right down to it, if LEOs find any hardw are it is potentially incriminating. That's why law s that outlaw any tools used for breaking and entering are so absurd. A
brick, crow bar, or hammer could be used to B&E, and all are view ed the same under the law, though they have to suggest intention or action to have a decent case. Though
you're right to find value in Social Engineering, relying on a single tactic to succeed is dangerous.
I think the bump keys are actually relatively low-risk. Ask your local locksmith if he's ever heard of a 999 key, bump key or your preferred term. Good chance they won't have.
If the lockies don't know about it, what chance is there that a cop that is looking for drugs and weapons on you will notice a key with all the same cuts, recognize it and nail you
for it?
Hell, if you're that concerned, re-pin one of the locks in your house as 99999. So long as you're not carrying a janitor's keyring of bumpkeys, but rather the ones you are most
likely to need in a pinch (SC1 and KW1) you'll be in pretty good shape.
nbk2000 August 23rd, 2006, 04:04 AM

You can't always talk your way into (or out of) everyplace you may w ant, and you can't always replace manufactured tools with 'improvised' versions, so you may have to
schlep around a big-ass keyring. :)
A 999 key is implausible to have as a personal house key, because no one manufacturers locks using such pinning, and w ill gladly testify to that fact.
A 999 key is a key that doesn't engage the pins except at the peaks of the inter-pin (whatever it's called), w hich is what smacks into the bottom of the pins, causing the
rapping action.
Also, just because a locksmith tells you they don't know w hat a 999 key is, doesn't mean that they don't. It's much more likely that they're playing dumb, as they like to
pretend to the unw ashed masses that such things don't exist.
megalomania August 23rd, 2006, 04:28 AM

Cops have a lot more dealings with the criminal element; that's their job. They don't have to encounter all crimes as they get reams of state produced training materials.
Nbk2000 recently posted an article about a man w ho was arrested and searched because the cops saw w hat their training told them was "pirated CD's." All it takes is one memo
with a few pictures passed around the squad and boom, they get you on suspicion. It's the lawyers job to determine if you are guilty, the cops just have to remember a picture
of a key...
sd1904 August 23rd, 2006, 09:48 AM

[/B]I don t know from "personal" experience. But shaved or not s haved nothing beats a customized 1/4 allan w rench. Works every time! I live in the auto theft capitol of the country and
let me tell you that there is no Honda or Acura that will be safe. An allen allow s you to apply proper pressure while it all looks like you are just getting into your ride.
anonymous411 August 23rd, 2006, 11:13 AM

Jake: True, any hardw are is potentially incriminating, as long as you fit the profile that gets you noticed in the first place. Which is precisely why "personal perception
management" is so important.
If for all intents and purposes you look like the perfect picture of a solid citizen (well-groomed, conservative suit and tie, Gucci loafers, calm, affable demeanor and all that
horseshit) you could have a brick, crowbar, hammer, ring of bump keys, wallet of southords, and a freaking dynamic entry monoshock ram in your posession...and nine times
out of ten nobody would even think to bother you. If they did, whatever pretext(s) you decided on beforehand w ould likely come across as believable.
Likewise, if you look like a dirty little uneducated meth-addicted white trash punk, you're going to be treated like one. Nothing you could do would ever be right and you get
hauled in for blank CDs or your life savings taken away as evidence of drug dealing, on and on.
JakeGallows August 25th, 2006, 04:00 PM

I agree that you can neither talk your way into everything but breaking in can be the wrong way as well. I w as told once that you should always keep your options open until
keeping your options open starts closing options. My point is that depending on the situation I think that with good personal perception management you could keep a couple of
bump keys on your person and be relatively unlikely to have problems. I agree that this IS a risk.
I think part of that risk could be offset by having locks in your house that use those keys. You would need to rekey them to your bump key, since NBK is correct that no
manufacturer would create such a lock themselves. Clearly you w ould be wise to make it to a fairly unimportant door (closet, pantry, w hatever) not an entranceway. Combine
a low likelyhood of being stopped with improbability of an officer noticing and recognizing what you're carrying and a legitimate and demonstrable excuse and you have my
argument for w hy you could carry a few bumpkeys w ith "no" problem.
JakeGallows September 10th, 2006, 06:22 PM

Re-searched google and noticed a number of links to commercially available bumpkeys including:
'http://ww w.cheapbumpkeys.com/'
festergrump March 4th, 2007, 02:34 AM

Look, folks, you either learn how to make them yourself or you let other people in on what you're up to. Even ONE other person knowing your w ants for obtaining them can
lead to you sharing a room with 'Bubba the Hubba Dubba Luvva' for long enough for you to have afterthoughts of what a fool you w ere for letting someone else in on your
plans, now or later.
Remember the RTPBs at all times.
Do what you want, but is there any information lacking here on how to make them yourself on this site? C'mon. Do it all by yourself. You'll appreciate the rewards more this
way (and you might be free to reap them, too!).
209 March 4th, 2007, 01:24 PM

No need to go out and buy a blank to make the bumb key, just go to the hardware store were they cut the keys and w ait till the guys back is turned. Thats w hat I did, I w as
getting a key cut and saw a rack full of blanks and thought "I had better not miss this opportunity" :D and slipped it into my pocket.
I sure you have a file at home, even a bar file will work, just turn it on an angle and cut all the teeth to their lowest points. you will need a hammer or something to drive the
bump key into the lock. even the spine of a book will work in a pinch.
kodiak31 March 5th, 2007, 07:46 PM

Go to a locksmith and tell them you want a key cut to code. Give them a code with at least one "9" depth. Then go home, break out the needle files and file the other teeth to
match the lowest one. There, you've made yourself a bumpkey and no one is the wiser.
grayssk March 8th, 2007, 02:20 PM

It'll really cost you, but the most "professional" site with bump keys these days is the new Multipick site. http://w ww.multipick-service.cc/htdocs/en/werkzeug/36100/
36100_cat1.php
No need to pay their outrageous prices, though. You can enjoy the best part of the site for free. They have illustrations of all the keyways, just find the one that looks like what
you need, look at the key, and make your ow n (or buy from them, it's a mostly free country).

Honestly, just make them yourself. But, if you're having trouble making them, there are a couple things you can try.
If you're having trouble with depth and spacing, then see - http://web.archive.org/w eb/20050215102400/http://dlaco.com/spacing/spacing.htm.
The origional website was taken down do to intrest in bumpkeys, but thanks to web archive its still available.
If you're having trouble obtaining a key or keyblank, you can try and look it up in http://www.kaba-ilco.com/key_systems/pdf/keyblanks.aspx?sm=kb_lit
The guide has pics of what the end of the key looks like, which is incredibly useful. Once you have the keyblank details, order the key blank from Ilco or ebay...
And, if you can't do the above, register on lockpicking101.com

Don't post a w anted ad in Buy/sell/trade for bumpkeys, read around, find out whos who, and then approach a locksmith or hobbyist about cutting you a set. Make sure they
aren't anti-bumpkey, some of them hate the things, and wouldn't sell them to anyone. Be sure to make a few posts as well, they don't look kindly on those looking to be
spoonfed, make some helpful posts, then ask someone to cut you some bumpkeys.
They should be more than happy to cut you a few for a little green. ;) About 3$ a standard key is a good price, but you could pay as much as 6$ for a special pin tumbler key.
InfernoMDM March 11th, 2007, 11:59 AM

I looked at the spaceing w ebpage that was archived. I am haveing a problem making my ow n bumpkey. In all honesty I wish someone would photo copy some actual working
bumpkeys next to a ruler, so you could print them out and hand do the work. Anyone on here capable of doing that?

I looked at the spaceing w ebpage that was archived. I am haveing a problem making my ow n bumpkey. In all honesty I wish someone would photo copy some actual working
bumpkeys next to a ruler, so you could print them out and hand do the work. Anyone on here capable of doing that?
What keys or key are you looking for? So far, I've never seen a bumpkey template, If you have a w orking key, or a blank and a caliper, making your own is incredibly easy.
I might be able to post a few pics, depending what you need.
Ofortuna July 29th, 2007, 07:25 AM

The hard part when looking at depth & spacing guides is that the "depth" they talk about is actually the amount of key left over...
I at first thought it was the distance from the top of the key to the bottom of the valley. It's the distance from the bottom of the key to the bottom of the valley. So you can
just measure it by putting a mic/caliper on it.
I put the HPC depth & spacing guide (lists most locks) & a guide to hand filing code keys that was originally a posted to a forum (don't remember w hich one, probably
ezpickings or lp101) up on rapid share as "get organised.rar"
http://rapidshare.com/files/45708930/get_organized.rar.html
pass word is of course, roguesci.org
You w ork at Ace? Score on the blanks!

Every body else, just get blanks at Home Despot or Lowes, tell them you're practicing to be a locksmith & have to file a key by hand, but you screwed up the blanks you were
given. They'll charge you for making a key anyw ay, oh w ell...
If you need a cheap caliper, there's one on sale at Harbor freight for $6 that would w ork quite nicely for this task
http://ww w.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber= 93293
crazywhiteguy May 2nd, 2008, 01:08 AM
I made a bump key on Tuesday and I've got it to work on my front door. I used an old key and my new house key to find the lowest settings. It didn't take much work to file
the key down. After you find the lowest setting its all about tracing the place where the pin falls and sawing/filing to that level w hile sawing the surrounding areas to make little
ramps.
totenkov May 2nd, 2008, 10:59 AM

I applaud your accomplishments :rolleyes:. Get some old dead bolts or locks from the local locksmith, practicing lock picking/bumping on your own from door is pretty dumb.
Don't pick locks you rely on!
gunsforeveryone May 3rd, 2008, 09:28 AM

Here is a link to a How to .pdf from a retail site.
http://ww w.bump-j.com/New_15_Bumpkey_template_and_instructions-DIST.pdf
crazywhiteguy May 4th, 2008, 03:37 AM

I applaud your accomplishments :rolleyes:. Get some old dead bolts or locks from the local locksmith, practicing lock picking/bumping on your own from door is pretty dumb.
Don't pick locks you rely on!
I'm practice my bump key on my lock because the lock I am picking is the same brand as the lock on my front door. There are many different locks that have different numbers
of pins and different pin spacings. I got lucky in having a key that matched.
If anyone wants to know. My attempt at making a bump key failed. The key I made might w ork on other locks but not on the one i want to open. I disassembled an old lock i
had in my garage and found that the brand name WEISER uses a spring pin design that does not let the pins 'bounce' or 'jump' as they would in older locks. The only option for
me now is to make a copy of the original key or make a variable cut key that i had a design for a while back
monkeyboy May 5th, 2008, 11:56 PM

WEISER uses a spring pin design that does not let the pins 'bounce' or 'jump' as they would in older locks.
To my knowledge Weiser does has not introduced any bump preventative technology yet.
Are the springs above the upper set of pins, like this:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w iki/Image:Pin_tumbler_unlocked.png
That's the way they're designed.
See this for more info:

http://ww w.lockbumping.org/lock-bump.html
In the last couple months, a couple of the pin tumbler lock mfgs have come out with bump preventative technology:
http://en.w ikipedia.org/w iki/Lock_bumping#Lock_brands
Older than a couple months, it's either a pin tumbler lock, which bumping works on, or a wafer tumbler lock (older Schlage), which w ill also bump.
Unless you're in Europe, then it could be any weird-ass lock. I'd actually like to play around with some of those weird-ass locks, pretty cool stuff. Definitely not run of the mill.
Bumps top Door Hardware by Master Lock

http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=MsE_Y2DJA_s
SmartKey By Kwikset
http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=ocEUhxMzhn8
PickBuster fluid
http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGX6jyyIkPk
crazywhiteguy May 8th, 2008, 07:48 PM

To my knowledge Weiser does has not introduced any bump preventative technology yet.
I might just be missing a detail. I tried to make a key with just the understanding I had on how the key should have worked. but the key I used to make the first bump key
was designed for the lock that I tested it on. When the key w as tried on the target door it didn't work. It also had more trouble getting in and out of the target lock. When I took
apart my lock I noticed that the lock had heavier than normal springs that didn't let the pins jump enough to let the tumbler to turn. As many times as I tried it I didn't get any
noticeable jump in the pins. At this point I would be happy with making a copy of the target key. Even if that defeats the purpose of having a bump key.
Logic Probe May 9th, 2008, 05:46 PM

I bought a set of five bump keys, Kw ikset, 4- and 5-pin Schlage, ML, etc online for $15, then defrayed the cost, in a manner of speaking, by letting a couple of like-minded
friends get copies cut from them. They just took them down to Home Depot and had duplicate sets in no time. I guess I could have charged them, but it's only money.
As for using one as a house key, I'll have to try that. I bought a re-keying set (should be called re-pinning, really), and it's easy to reset the lock to match the key. Wouldn't
want to leave it that w ay, though, since anyone w ith a bump key could w alk right in.
Also, a cheap and easy w ay to make a lock bump-resistant, if not - proof, is to cut a little sliver off a foam ear plug and put it inside the spring behind any of the pins. It
compresses w ith the right key, but it takes the "bounce" right out of that pin.
BIGdaddy May 15th, 2008, 03:30 AM

Here are templates for bumpkeys that members are looking for. Enjoy http://www.bump-j.com/New _15_Bumpkey_template_and_instructions-DIST.pdf
generallisimo May 16th, 2008, 12:19 AM

Here are templates for bumpkeys that members are looking for. Enjoy http://www.bump-j.com/New _15_Bumpkey_template_and_instructions-DIST.pdf
Fantastic tutorial. Thank you.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Lessons from Reality TV "Cops"
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View Full Version : Lessons from Reality TV "Cops"
JakeGallows July 28th, 2006, 12:47 PM

I started this thread as a place to discuss lessons from the Reality TV Show "Cops". It has been on for 18 seasons, and w hile I don't really follow it I can't help but w atch
:rolleyes: and over the past few years I've noticed changes in Police strategy and tactics.
I wasn't necessarily consciously thinking about the tactics or the lessons to be learned from watching it, but those thoughts w ould frequently pop into my head. I also realize that
there are a myriad of thoughts/threads regarding evading law enforcement, but I feel there are both psychological and tactical lessons to be learned from Cops. This is not
meant to be a repetition of those other threads. Nor a end-all be-all strategy, instead it should be a way to analyze LEO methods, strengths and weaknesses.
In addition, particularly when you look at Military and SWAT tactics, though standard Police training as w ell, one of their strong suits is that they examine their training and
situations that they are put into in an effort to be better the next time. This is something that we should take into consideration - one-up the one-upper as it were.
For example:
One of the recent changes in tactics I noted w as in pulling people over. Especially when LEOs run a tag that comes back stolen or otherwise wanted they radio other units their
position. Those other units then get close and as a team they pull the vehicle over, preventing a single unit from being outnumbered, outgunned, or outrun. In the past they
would simply find a stolen car and try to pull it over, w ith markedly decreased success.
rillistkilla July 30th, 2006, 04:25 AM

I myself have noticed that tactic become more popular as well. The only thing a criminal could do is to steal tags that go to identical cars. So they would not utilize this tactic
when pulling over said criminal. Said criminal would then have the option of ambush.
rillistkilla July 31st, 2006, 07:10 AM

I also thought id share another thought about cops.
I always see on those cop style shows about SWAT teams that they are just regular patrol guys who ride around with full body armor and fully automatic weapons in there
squad cars trunk. Should a criminal on a frugal budget ever desire such gear all he w ould have to do is set up a fake barricade situation and surveil which squad cars are SWAT
members, and if possible get there names. And after his survilence all he would have to do is follow the target car to its night-time parking location (usually right at the officers
home). Or if he was able to get the targets name, he could even just try a dam phone book (as most cops are known members of the community). All that would be left to do
is break into the trunk, which any thirteen year old can do.
You could set up the fake barricade situation easily, simple find an abandoned shithole, board up the windows (w ear gloves duh), set up a few cheap untraceble shotguns rigged
to go off by remote control. Its not hard just use a RV car with string attached to the trigger. Make a phone call to police with a cell phone no longer in service (all cell phones
can dial emergency numbers even if they have no service). Say you just saw some crazy hillbilly shoot at traffic from his house. Have the shotguns near the door and w indow s,
so the first responding officers will think the crazy hillbilly is aiming for them, and they w ill call SWAT. Wah-Lah.
Any thoughts?
PS - Sorry for the back to back post, I cant find the edit option if there is one.
knowledgehungry July 31st, 2006, 10:49 PM

In the city where I live cop cars never go to an officer's house at night, when that cop gets off duty the next cop gets the car. I would imagine that is how most large cities
police departments work. Remember crime never sleeps, and neither do the police ;).
JakeGallows August 1st, 2006, 03:24 PM

Ristakilla's point is not an unreasonable one, though you might be asking for trouble breaking into a cop car or a cop's car. I'm sure that there are SWAT members w ho keep
some or all of their equipment in their private vehicles and utilizing that know ledge (either to acquire equipment or incapacitate a SWAT team via their private vehicles) is
reasonable.
Another Cops tactic is the PIT (Precision Immobilization Technique or Pursuit Intervention Technique) which appears to have come into vogue recently. Though interestingly if
you examine police policies and procedures there are limited times that they can be employed. So for instance LAPD can not (by "can not" I mean "is not supposed to") use the
PIT tactic on routine traffic stops. If you have a busted tail light and you run and that's the only thing they have on you, they are not supposed to give chase.
The lesson? Consider examining your hometown's police procedures and policies - they try to get into the mind of a criminal... do it to them.
Sidenote: I wonder if anyone has ever successfully used the PIT against the police? I've seen cruisers get rammed but never PITed.
nocturnalfrost August 2nd, 2006, 07:46 PM

I find it to be a funny, ironic tw ist that inmates love to watch the show COPS in jail. My thoughts were that I had already had enough of Cops. I don't understand why they
alw ays wanted to watch this show .
Jacks Complete August 3rd, 2006, 10:48 AM

JakeGallow s, please tell us more about this PIT trick.
In the UK, they tend to let you run (on motorways or other suitable roads), then radio ahead and have a stinger put down. 4 flats later you are surrounded and unable to run.
There have been too many deaths due to police drivers (more in the last few years than from drink driving!) so they changed the procedures.
nbk2000 August 3rd, 2006, 05:04 PM

Googling with the term "Precision Immobilization Technique" brings up all the relevant information, including video. :)

JacksComplete - you can indeed find all the information you want on google as per NBK. The short version is that they pull to one side of you and use their [right, for the sake
of clarity] front quarter panel to push your [left] rear quarter panel to the right. Particularly at medium and high speeds this causes the front car to start fishtailing and spin out
or, if done properly, to spin out immediately.
They use the stingers here, though they're referred to as spike-strips. As I consider it further I wonder w hy they don't use them more often here. Probably a function of the fact
that the chases are unpredictable and it's difficult to get ahead of the cars. In addition there have been a number of times w hen I've watched cars drive crazy routes to avoid
the strips. I've seen them almost run over pedestrians, officers and w ildlife in order to avoid them. Besides who w ants to blow out tires w hen you can run a car off the road? :D
Whitey August 4th, 2006, 02:22 PM

Also a lot of the time the suspects car avoids the strips but the police cars don't. Which leads to a cop car going at high speed suddenly having 4 flat tires. Sucks if you are the
one driving and all of a sudden you lose control. Also sometimes these chases take place on main roads. So the police have to deploy the spike strip right before the suspect's
car passes them, this gives the suspect the option of trying to run over the cop throw ing the strip (if he is truly psycho).
Biggest lessons from Cops that are never applied. Keep your friggin mouth shut. Don't give them permission to search.

That PIT thing is very like the old way of spinning out a car w ith rear bumper contact.
Against a rear wheel drive car, you can simply nudge the rear bumper with your front bumper. This lifts one wheel, and the diff will spin it up to higher speed, w hilst slowing the
other w heel. At this point, contact ceases and the faster wheel makes the car spin when it hits the road again. Contact/release takes under a second, and the only defence is to
see it coming and take your foot off the gas.
In the UK, the way to tell if they are going to use the stinger is that the chase cars pull back a w ays. They fire it from behind cover, then return it fast, so you have 4 flats. This
means you won't lose control, and you w on't swerve to avoid it, since you w on't see it until it is too late, as it deploys.
nbk2000 August 7th, 2006, 01:37 AM

I believe we've had previous threads where we discussed counter-measures to spikestrips, such as sacrificial roller wheels, steel wire 'brooms' to sweep the spikes out of the
strip, etc.
Also, PIT can be defeated by training in counter-steering, just as if you had hit a patch of ice on the road. :)
tmp August 7th, 2006, 05:20 PM

Nocturnalfrost, you're right about inmates watching COPS in jail. I observed
this during my last vacation in the local hoosegow some years ago. Could it
be that they're picking up tips on WHAT NOT TO DO during their next crime
spree ?
Tw o w eeks ago I w as waiting for a trainee to arrive and that damn COPS
show w as on the telly. What I saw was disgusting ! The pork was using its
reverse sting operation, somewhere in TexASS, to bust crack cocaine users.
I've never understood why the courts allow the cops to pose as drug dealers,
commit felonies by making sales to users and then busting the users for a
fucking possession misdemeanor. IMHO, it's legalized entrapment !
Sausagemit August 7th, 2006, 05:31 PM

Screw trying to run from cops in a car, that is getting nearly impossible these days. Pretty much the only way you can do it is with a really fast car that doesn't stick out like a
sore thumb (an Audi RS4/RS6 or BMW M3/M5 comes to mind, with run flat tires of course).
Why not learn how to run through an urban situation much quicker and more efficiently than the police.
A french guy named David Belle gave it a name, Parkor.
Video of David demonstrating Parkor (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1854204693582154043&q=david+ belle)
Parkor video (http://w ww.worldwidejam.tv/images/filmentries/controlled_madness.w m v )
festergrump August 7th, 2006, 06:18 PM

LOL! It makes perfect sense to me. Who better to teach techniques on "How to Flee" than a frenchman? They're masters at it by nature...
nbk2000 August 8th, 2006, 10:13 AM

Well I'm impressed by the frenchie.
He goes from the roof of (what looks like) a 10 story apartment building, to ground level, in 15 seconds. :eek:
That's faster than the elevator could get you down. :)
And faster than the pigs could follow. :D
c.Tech August 8th, 2006, 11:05 AM

I have heaps of le parkour (AKA free running) videos, unfortunately the best 2, which are better than the French guy's videos, are too big to upload to the forum.
I w ill email them (only the 2) if people want them, post message me, don t post in this thread for it will just clog it up w ith annoying posts.
There are also more videos at www.3run.co.uk

Look at the techniques that could be used to fight and confuse others.
nbk2000 August 8th, 2006, 09:17 PM

There's alw ays Rapidshare. ;)
Chris The Great August 8th, 2006, 09:55 PM

I've been getting into shape and have decided to take that up when I get some better endurance for running. Useful, and it looks pretty damn fun too.
However, IMO, the best thing is to just make sure you never get in a situation where you need to run from the cops.
I think one thing that not many people think about w hen running from the cops is that if you stop running and hide, they probably w on't see you. If you get enough of a lead,
then jump into a dumpster and cover your head w ith a box, chances are they will go right past you and you can then walk away a while later. I mean, the suspect was running,
right? Nobody stops running from the police until they "get aw ay".
They don't round a corner and drop into a dumpster or something.
Just an idea, haven't really tried it myself (yet).
c.Tech August 9th, 2006, 12:42 AM

There's alw ays Rapidshare. ;)
If I dont have an account, whats the point? After nobody dow nloads them for 30 days they will be deleted.
With e-mail I can send without them getting deleted. First by sending them to myself then forward to anybody that requests.
EDIT: I've reconsidered Rapidshare.
http://rapidshare.de/files/31763677/le-parkour.zip
Chaosmark August 9th, 2006, 12:50 AM

Yanno, that reminds me of the urban ninja videos of guys who do the same thing, going through a city, mall, etc. and doing that sorta thing. Something to consider working at,
even if just to be able to run if (when) the government decides to go off the deep end and comes after us.
Dank$taVegas August 9th, 2006, 01:22 AM

If I dont have an account, what s the point? After nobody downloads them for 30 days they will be deleted.
Links only get deleted after no one downloads them form 30 days. So with them amount of users who frequent this site, and the amount of new member that join regularly, the
links will be alive and working for a long time to come.
And the point is you w ill be reaching a lot more people than just e-mailing them to a few people. Your time uploading them to Rapid Share will be well worth it. I'm sure you
don't want hundreds of people E-Mailing you for the files. :)
I have found Rapid Share links working on this site from back in last year 2005. So by all means upload them for the forums, and post them in the Links section of the forum! ;)
nbk2000 August 9th, 2006, 11:39 AM

In addition, it'd be good for anyone who uploads something to Rapidshare, to also include the link in the (now) sticky thread called Lots of Rapidshare Links (http://
w w w.roguesci.org/theforum/links-literature/5388-lots-rapid-share-links.html), in the Links and Literature section, so it's always findable, compared to buried in a thread. :)

Links are not deleted from rapidshare.de due to "inactivity" if you have a "premium" account with them. I understand that they are now offering a "cheap" type of premium
account, for a greatly reduced fee, if you sign up to a porn site, which pays their bills.
BTW To search for rapidshare.de links by subject, try http://w ww.rapidshared.org . They apparently search the internet, on Google, for web-pages on w hich people have posted
links, all of which contain the search string "rapidshare.de/files/" (in quotation marks)
Otherw ise search youtube for "free running", "free runners" - there's plenty of interesting acrobatics to watch.
Chris The Great - I think that hiding in a dumpster or whatever is one possible strategy but I think it depends on the circumstances. If you have plenty of room to run I think
that's really a better option. Presumably you w ere trying to avoid being caught to begin with by minimizing your exposure, hiding as it were. Since it didn't work the first time, a
change of strategy is probably in order, and running seems to be it.
If you watch cops, a lot of people do that: Try not to be found doing something naughty, fail, run then hide, they almost always get caught... Staying in one place gives cops
the luxury of time which is to your disadvantage.
nbk2000 August 11th, 2006, 07:20 AM

Hiding makes you immobile, thus able to be hemmed in and found.
If you've got a headstart on the pigs, don't ever lose it by stopping and thinking you're going to hide from them.
Skean Dhu August 12th, 2006, 12:50 AM

Heres a pro driver who won't be taken down by the PIT technique. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9131460987467226554&q=police+chase
somebody has been practicing their drifting...
BeerWolf August 30th, 2006, 07:04 PM

I have only seen a few episodes of "cops", I don't watch much TV.
But in the ones I have seen the thing that strikes me most is the number of people with w arrants out on them, or running drugs, with expired tags on their car.
If you're doing something you don't w ant to be stopped for, check the car for tags, bad brake lights, etc.
And image management, IE don't look like a doper or low life with something to hide.
I get gruff from my friends because I make them wait while I shave before leaving the house on days off. But they also ask me why I get pulled over less often than they do.
:)
-BW

BeerWolf, believe it or not some criminals are not very intelligent! The very reason these people are low life career criminals to begin with is because they cant hack it anywhere
else.
One distinguishing characteristic of highly intelligent persons is thinking and planning ahead. A person of lesser intelligence is prone to impulsiveness in all of their actions. The
chess master is already thinking 8 moves ahead, the scumbag criminal holds up a donut shop across from a police station.
These types of criminals take unnecessary risks, like the aforementioned driving w ith expired plates. They have a complete disdain for any law, and so they disregard even the
most basic precautions. These criminals are the low hanging fruit that cops prey on because it is so easy for the cops to look like they are doing their job. These criminals are
also the greatest threat to society because they are so visable.
There was a very entertaining TV show titled Americas Dumbest Criminals on a few years ago. OK, make that 10 years ago, http://www .imdb.com/title/tt0211134/. Every
episode featured ineptitude of a tremendous scale. My personal favorite was the crook who broke into a warehouse through the skylight, but couldnt get back out the way he
came in (he had to drop some 6-7 feet), and the doors w ere well secured from the outside. He had to call 911 on his cell phone for the cops to get him out. :rolleyes:

BeerWolf, believe it or not some criminals are not very intelligent! The very reason these people are low life career criminals to begin with is because they cant hack it anywhere
else.
Yep. These are same people who brag about how many times they've been arrested. What's up with that? Where's the honor in letting everyone know you can't outsmart the
police and reguarly botch jobs?
One would think the point of pride would be in having an absolutely clean record. Besides, anyone who admits to committing crimes in the first place for any reason-- ever-- is
just begging to be made an example of.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > homemade lathe
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View Full Version : homemade lathe
zaitsev August 5th, 2006, 05:31 PM

hi,
i saw many sites about homemade lathes does anyone from the forum ever made one of these?
what do you sugest for use as pulleys?
ozboy August 6th, 2006, 02:28 PM

Skean Dhu has posted a link for a pdf on how to build a lathe.
Hope this helps. http://rapidshare.de/files/22367724/Gingery_2_The_Metal_Lathe.pdf.html

You could just buy the pulleys. Another way might be to buy or steal a cheap pillar drill. Or grab a trashed one from a garage sale or car boot.
The lathe is the only machine tool that can make itself, did you know? If you had a lathe you could turn a set of pulleys.
festergrump August 6th, 2006, 07:21 PM

If you have a decent drill press at your disposal and a way to melt aluminum or other softer metal, you could try the "Lost Foam Method".
Some details here: http://www.theworkshop.ca/casting/foamcasting/foamcasting.htm
Cast two 'stepped' pulleys and run them opposite from one another to adjust speed of your lathe like many drill-presses do.
Once you get your lathe running decently enough you could turn your own pulleys all day long (like Jack's said), even redoing the ones for the lathe as cast aluminum is
nowhere near as strong as turned steel, and I'd guess that you'd wear through belts much quicker with the rougher edges of the cast aluminum pulleys.
It'd get you started, anyway...
Somewhere within my links collection I have a site which outlines the entire lathe building process using a home-made backyard forge. It's likely kin to the one Skean Dhu and
Ozboy mentioned. I'll see if I can find it to compare o theirs, and if it's different, I'll post the link here.
Grizzly Industrial has various pulleys and other stuff for sale as does McMaster Carr. (Grizzly's cheaper...)
[EDIT: Here's a site which appears to be more of a picture compilation of the step by step PDF linked to on rapidshare:
http://backyardmetalcasting.com/lathe1.html
Site owner has some other good projects, too, if you just go to his homepage.]
Genocyde August 14th, 2006, 01:01 AM

I have the book by Dave Gingery. You really need to be an experienced machinist to even attempt to build it. You also need to be able to cast your own parts. I have built the
foundry furnace described in another of Dave's books. I have also built a milling table for my drill press from one of the series. I can tell you tjhat if you follow his directions
exactly you will end up with a piece of machinery worthing of showing off. Dave G. really knows his stuff.
If you aren't ready to tackle a project like the Gingery lathe, I would suggest searching around the net for a set of plans from Popular Mechanics. They published some plans
years ago for a lathe built from plumbing parts and other odds and ends. It looked like a fairly simple build, and might make a decent machine for a hobbiest. I don't have a
link at hand, but it should not be too difficult to find via Google.

Jacks Complete - Actually the mill is the only machine that can replicate itself.
Zaitsev - I have a lathe and a mill, and if you want to be able to machine metal, wood, or platic accurately, the best idea would be to buy one. It would be hard to cast your
bed, headstock, and such, but the hardest part would be machining them after they are cast. If you dont have a mill, you probably won't have very much luck.
I used to have a Unimat 6in1, and it was ok, but you get 6 different tools out of it including a lathe, mill, drill press. It is about $350, but no tools are very cheap. You could
also check ebay. One site it is on is:
http://www.maxmax.com/fMini-mate.htm
Genocyde August 19th, 2006, 05:17 PM

I have a Unimat, the little guy is pretty impressive for what it is. Usually multi-purpose tools are junk, but the Unimat is a well designed and well built little piece of machinery.
They go for around $350 used on E-bay, and are well worth that price if you want to machine small parts.
nbk2000 August 19th, 2006, 11:49 PM

Totally Off Topic:
If you can afford it (>$20K), a Cincinnati Milacron machine brings you absurd levels of speed/precision/capacity. The preferred machine tool of Military Industrial COmplexes
around the globe. :)
stupid939 August 20th, 2006, 12:50 AM

Sherline machines are a lot less expensive (~$1000 for a lathe or mill), and Boeing (airplane constructors) uses them a lot for small machining tasks. I have thier 17" lathe,
and two of their mills, but you will end up spending a lot more on accessories than you did on the machine. This goes for most machines (except for maybe the ones in the
tens of thousands. They are variable speed, they are transportable (if you wish), they come with all the accessories that you would need, and they can get you to at least
0.001 inches or less. Check them out at
www.sherline.com
BeerWolf August 23rd, 2006, 02:45 PM

Harbor freight tools also has cheap but adequate mills and lathes.
I have one of their mini mills. It needed a lot of cleaning up before use, but is quite useful for the $350 (on sale) cost.
See here for specs:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44991
wolfy9005 August 29th, 2006, 03:18 AM
use old bench/stand drills
http://www.toolcenter.com/pics/tools/8050SL.jpg
BeerWolf August 30th, 2006, 02:55 PM

use old bench/stand drills
http://www.toolcenter.com/pics/tools/8050SL.jpg
You can use these in an emergency, with an XY table.
But they are unsuitable for comman use because the spindle bearings are set up to take thrust loads only.
The side loads imposed by milling destroy the bearings in only a few hours.
You CAN modify the spindle to use other bearings, but it generally takes a lathe to do so. Easier to just use that lathe with a milling attachment in the first place.
Totally Off Topic:

If you can afford it (>$20K), a Cincinnati Milacron machine brings you absurd levels of speed/precision/capacity. The preferred machine tool of Military Industrial COmplexes
around the globe. :)
They are the ticket! I used to program and run Milacron 30 5 axis machines in aerospace. Accurate and easy to use.
I have seen used 3 axis Cinci's as low as $7000.

But they take large amounts of industrial 3 phase power, and they weigh from 7-12 tons. So I haven't got one for my garage....yet.:)
amsci99 September 1st, 2006, 02:34 PM

There's a range of books on making your own machine shop from scrap from Lindsay Books at http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/index.html. I do not know about the
tolerances of the machines but I guess you get to pick up metal shaping skills along the way. zaitsev, you may wish to pm me for the books if you are interested.
+++++++++
UTFSE before posting redundant links. NBK
BeerWolf September 4th, 2006, 11:22 PM

I have all the Gingery Books on disk.
The may already be on the FTP, but I have now way to check it yet. (Too new)
I will be uploading them to rapidshare. Watch the Rapidshare links thread.
NO self-signing of posts. You've been warned already. Next time...
henryblowery September 5th, 2006, 06:23 PM

Harbor freight tools also has cheap but adequate mills and lathes.
I don't know how we got from homemade lathes to HF, but I agree with BeerWolf....I've seen lots of great stuff made on HF mini lathes and mills. I just bought one myself
and I'm looking forward to using it.
<img width=450 hight=400 src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/braboy/minimill008.jpg">

You must think like a corporation, syfilius. Always remember that government products are built by the lowest bidder. Why spend $100k to do something if it can be done on a
$1k machine? Not every part needs to be built to ultra precision standards. Interior components like door frames, conduits, seat brackets, toilets, sinks, compartments, etc.
need not be perfect.
Consider the difference between the Corvette and the Cobalt. The new Corvette is a $70k+ car that Consumer Reports still ripped for being rather shoddy, but the quality is
head and shoulders beyond what the Cobalt offers. The Cobalt costs a fraction of the price of the Corvette, hence a fraction of the quality.
The Hubble space telescope has a poorly ground lens because someone miscalibrated the calibration machine. One of those Mars probes blew up upon landing because the
geniuses at the contractor used different units of measurement.
Alas, "Quality Is Job #1" is more of a slogan on the wall at many companies interested in turning a profit. Ever see an aircraft grounded because of mechanical difficulties?
Never underestimate the depths to which a company will sink to save a few bucks if they think no one is watching.

There
Their
They're
are words that may sound the same, but are not interchangable, syfilius. (Deliberate mispelling of Syphilis?)
Mega, you have to approve a moderated post that you're replying to, otherwise no-one else knows what's you're referring to. :p
pfred1 December 6th, 2006, 12:09 PM

I made a lathe out of some junk I found in the cellar here. PM me for URL to a page about it. I am still refining the machine to this day, but as it is it does the lathe thing. It
does not cut threads or anything like that though. I mainly use it for woodworking now. But with the modifications I am doing on it now I am aiming for more metal working
functionality out of it.
As for the pulley question right now I am using junk pulleys I have found in my travels, but am in the process of making one on the lathe. I have glued up the blank etc, just
have not gotten around to turning it yet.
c.Tech December 6th, 2006, 09:04 PM

I made a lathe out of some junk I found in the cellar here. PM me for URL to a page about it.
Why not just post the link in this thread?
aikon December 7th, 2006, 10:26 AM

Why not just post the link in this thread?
Because he has never built a lathe out of junk.

He's just a liar, trying to impress us with fictitious experiments and projects.
pfred1:
Yes, this is meant as an insult. I'll apologize if you prove me wrong.
Meawoppl December 7th, 2006, 12:38 PM

The gingery books are nearly as hard as you guys claim. The hardest part is making good wood patterns so your castings turn out well. The only advantage that I had was
access to the casting lab where I go to school.
This made the castings turn out way prettier than I could have performed at my home. In any case, getting the patterns pretty involves having a table saw, or lots of time with
a file/rasp. In either case, after I finish the project, I plan on selling the patterns just because they are such a pain in the ass to make.
If you guys ever have any problems with the book series, send me a PM. Also if you have any casting questions, I am good for that too.
Cobalt.45 December 7th, 2006, 12:45 PM

I made a lathe out of some junk I found in the cellar here.
And, some piece of shit that barely manages to achieve .010" accuracy is a lathe in name only.
If you have something decent and original, though, lets see it.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multimachine/ might be of use here.
The MultiMachine started out as an all purpose machine tool for my home shop because I had gotten to really resent having to buy something before I made anything!
Like many projects, this one kept growing and finally ended up as a machine that that could do any type of job that a machine shop does.
It had also gotten (for me at least) expensive. This group and I then developed ways to make the machine almost FREE.

There is a vast difference between a wood turning and metal turning lathe. Get real.
10fingers December 23rd, 2006, 05:03 AM

Several years ago I bought that Dave Gingery book on building a lathe. After reading it I realized that it would take me about 6 months to do. If I took the same amount of
time to work and make money I could buy several lathes. But I suppose if you have a lot of time and little money it might be worthwhile, it's also a good way to learn
metalworking skills.
I did finally just buy one, it's a Southbend 9 inch that I picked up used for $1200., it's a nice little machine. I know I could never have built one that came close to it.
Jacks Complete December 23rd, 2006, 08:26 PM

defiant, I'm quite sure you aren't talking to me, since the link I provide tells us plenty about the multi-machine, which is a multi-purpose metal machining station, which
includes a metal lathe, milling machine, and more, down to the individual preferences of the builder.
FragmentedSanity December 24th, 2006, 04:50 AM

I think defiant was just joining in with everyone ripping on the newb who claimed to build the lathe from junk.
The machine you linked to is a beast - looks damn impressive, I had to sign up to yahoo it looked so interesting ;)
As for things like turning metal in woodlathe, or with a makeshift device powered by a drill or a bicycle or whatever else you happen to imagine - dont be so quick to discount
it. Its never going to be as good as a propper machine, but for many tasks it would be adequate. As long as it preforms the task you want it too then your makeshift lathe is a
success.
You dont need super accuracy for everything - if all you wanted was to make say a homemade SMG, you dont really need to buy a big expensive machine capable of "real"
accuracy.
HIM March 10th, 2007, 12:23 AM

I purchased a book from Lindsay Books on building a lathe. (The title escapes me right now, but it is not one of Gingery's).
It came with templates for all the pieces and tips for assembly for those without any major skill. The headstock and tailstock are easily aquired and sometimes even free as
they are diesel pistons. (Which are far more precise than what one could make without high end equipment).
I made a few essential changes from the original design: Actual bearings in the headstock instead of bronze bearings, eliminated all the various pullies by using a 1.5 hp DC
motor from a treadmill powered by a rheostat and bridge rectifier circuit, turning a belt that is attached to the headstock driveshaft.
It can turn my work with a tolerance of around 1 to 2 thousandths of an inch and all without having to do much more to the metal for the body other than drill/tap/pin to
assemble it.
oxbeast March 17th, 2007, 07:57 AM

HIM, what is your lathe's bed made from?
Further details of the book would be appreciated.
mule March 17th, 2007, 02:21 PM

Check out yahoo groups multimachines. The guy has been making mill/lathe combos out of engine blocks. They also have some great advice and good links
Genocyde March 18th, 2007, 10:30 PM

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multimachine/ might be of use here.
Wow! Thanks for that link. Looks like I have a new project, as if I didn't have enough already.
209 March 19th, 2007, 10:00 PM

I have built the Gingery lathe, I got into casting from Lionel's website - www.backyardmetalcating.com. After a month of procrastination I eventually got a furnace thrown
together. I was going to make a charcoal furnace but thought I would go all the way and opted for a much cleaner/less stinky/no clean up propane foundry. I got all the
patterns togeather (make ALL your patterns first) and built it.
The end result was good, but not store bought. The accuracy was good, but hey, a homemade lathe can only do practicle work within reasonable limits. The bed was a bit
flimsy (I casted it 3 times and chose the best one) and it vibrated a bit to much. Other than that, it was pretty good. I have never used it for anything that really counts, but its
great for cleaning up round castings.
This is a good website for homemade jazz -
http://www.green-trust.org/junkyardprojects/FreeHomeWorkshopPlans.html
HIM March 19th, 2007, 11:07 PM

The bed is made from 6 in x 36 in x .5 in cold rolled steel. (In fact, all the metal used is cold rolled). The bed is supported by 2 - 3 in x 36 in x .25 in runner strips using angle
iron the same length holding the bed to the base, which is a scrap piece of a beam 10 in wide. The instructions call out for .25 inch steel but I doubled the thickness of
everything to make it more rigid to avoid filling the underside of the bed with concrete. If interested I could take a few pics of it and post them.
I just looked on Lindsay Publications and it doesn't look like they have the book at this time. Ill try digging up my copy and maybe scanning it.
blackberrygoose April 2nd, 2007, 03:11 AM

OK Then.
Aside from all of the other sites that have been mentioned, I came through this site from the "backyard metal casting" links or through google, looking for some of the lathe
designs that can be built at home.
http://www.vintageprojects.com/site-map.html
(hope this is helpful)
At the time that I last checked, I found that this site had a few differing lathe designs and a few other interesting bits and pieces that have been pulled from hobby engineering
publications over the years.
Another useful piece of data (for the maths and data freak) is the "machinery's handbook" in any edition from 1968 onward. The most recent version I could find was the 27th
editition and can be downloaded through a number of the torrent engines. Use your own initiative to source a torrent location for this one as I cannot remember the exact
location.
In the future I would realy enjoy building a lathe or multimachine, but alas a store bought or secondhand unit will suffice as the time space and commitment required is already
spoken for.
A good second hand lathe for gunsmithing (or soi have been told by an old engineer) would be a myford super 7 or a myford ML7. A Taiwanese lathe has poor to average
electrics but is cpapable of producing good accuracy, price is the key here. As for a good reliable lathe any Coulchester lathe from '79 onwards (in good condition) would be
optimal and could cost no more than Au$10,000 with inverter, but if one where to look around one could be found for less than Au$5,000 (makes the new Taiwanese tool room
lathe look attractive, hey?).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Transistor Tim er
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View Full Version : Transistor Timer
Nitrophuric Aci August 17th, 2006, 03:38 PM

I h a v e b e c o m e b e f u d dled by a sim ple schem atic thttp://www.putfile.com / p i c . p h p ? i m g = 3 2 1 8 5 0 1 h a t t e a s e s m y brain. I built a
tim e delay circuit for anything from a digital alarm clock to a cou ntdown timer. Now when tested on breadbo ard with a flashlight
bulb in lieu of an ignnitor or detonator, the circuit worked perfectly. Now when I actualy used a 1.5 volt from an alarm clock
tim er to the circuit it doesnt work. Any ideas, because this sim ple setup could work with an y kind of detonation via rem ote i
m ean it is applicable to just about anything. Why cant I get it to work now?
BlackFalcoN August 17th, 2006, 07:27 PM

Replace the NPN transistor by a SCR PNPN thyristor. C ollector-Base-Emitter becom e s G a t e - A n o d e - C a t h o d e .
Also, as a sa fety feature, it would be wise to im plem ent a LED (with a resistor) parallel over the detonator to indicate the
circu it's statu s, as well as a switch to reset the SCR thyristor.
Electronitro October 9th, 2007, 05:01 PM

W ith such considerable efficiency to ob tain a sim ple NPN transistor at any radio shack as opposed to an SCR or any type of
thyristor, therein lies the ultim ate question of how such an operation can be accom plished. I for one attem pted the utilization
of a MOSFET in lieu of the standard transistor in hopes that the gate, source, and drain would act appropria tely for the
o p e r a t i o n p e r h a p s s u b s e q u e n t l y c o p y i n g t h e a n o d e , c a t h o d e a n d g a t e a s f o u n d i n t h e S C R M u c h t o m y d i s m ay, it also did not
work properly.
USE
The typical NPN transistor is a semiconductor device, com monly used as an amplifier or an electrically controlled switch. The
transistor is the fundam ental building block of the circuitry and because of its fast response and accuracy, the transistor is used
in a wide variety of digital and analog functions, including am plification, switching, voltage regulation, signa l m o d u l a t i o n , a n d
oscillators.
PARAGR A P H
That being a fact, one can only assume that NitrophuricAci has the right idea to quite possibly the simplest yet efficient form s
for an operative to create such a device. My question being what is going wrong with utilizing the standard NPN and how can it
be used in such a fashion.
BREAKS
W ith the ability for an operative to use such a sim ple device any m isfortunes would be difficult to trace m aking the "Transistor
Tim er" a very ideal device. Any help is appreciated.

Rarely has so much been said about so little. :rolleyes:
Bein g excessively verbose doesn't m a k e y o u s e e m any more intelligent, just pretentious.
LibertyOrDeath October 10th , 2007, 01:58 AM

As long as this thread has been resurrected, I m ight as well m ention that the circuit posted looks wrong. Shouldn't it be m ore
like the one in the attachment?
Also, I think BlackfalcoN's righ t that an SCR would be greatly pre ferable to a transistor. You want to keep the current flowing
through the cap even if the base current is on only briefly or interm ittently.
EDIT: Oops, I just realized that the attachm ent should've been a gif instead of a jpg, but it's not letting m e c h a n g e t h e
attachm ent. Sorry. :o
BlackFalcoN Novem ber 1st, 2007, 11:43 PM

Here is a visualization of the SCR version, with a cell phone attached instead of a tim er.
Any device with a low current beeper/vibrator/buzzer/ala rm signal can be used to trigger the SC R.
The switch and LEDs are optional for proper fun ctioning, but greatly improve safety by indicating in which part of the circuitry
current is flowing.
Visualization (http://im g230.im a g e s h a c k . u s / m y . p h p ? i m age=detnr0.jpg)
Logic Probe May 10th, 2008, 11:17 AM

To NA: Not enough voltage. If you're u sing a typical small signal transistor, say a 2N2222 or a 2N3904, you 're dropping arou n d
.3 - .7 volts (forward voltage) of your 1.5 volt supply across the transistor, even if it is in saturation (m a x i m um conduction).
I'm betting that your successful breadboard circuit had m ore voltage supplied to it. Try the sam e circuit with a 9 volt battery
instead of a 1.5 volt. Even an SCR can have trouble reliably gating at just 1.5 volts. You m ight also consider placing a
capacitor, say 100 m icrofarad or so, in parallel with the battery to give the output more am pacity.
BTW , BF, I like the added safety features of yo ur circuit, but the SCR and the red LED in the schem atic need to be turned
around in order to conduct. Cathode has to con nect to negative side of source to be forward biased/gated on.
Charles Owlen Picket May 12th, 2008, 12:23 PM

Let m e a d d s o m e t h i n g to this subject that you fellows m ay find of interest. The sem i-conductor / IC oriented electronic tim er /
initiators were actually introduced to the US Military for evaluation some m any years ago. (There was a hand grenade that was
evaluated.) In industry there is actually a com pany that m anufactures caps that have a small circuit within them.
But the Military rejected the idea. As opposed to industrial concerns, the Military thought them too sensitive to EMP (both in the
form of direct pulse weapons & by products of weapons) to warra nt a switch from the older standards.
I know the patents fo r several exist. Som e o f t h e m are not available (& certainly not to be posted!) but som e o f t h e m can b e
found. But the story of the contractual issues are not all confidential. Some of them may be found in archival discussions over
the adoption of newer levels of the M26 & later grenade s (that time period) if anyone has interest.
W ithin some of the public patents m a y b e f o u n d schematics of direct value to this thread. I don't have the numbers handy but
if yo u know how to se arch the USPO & use key words such as "electronic, grenade, IC tim er, explosive" (not in that order of
course, I don't rem ember wha t order b ut that's close en ough) you'll find what public stuff is there.
Logic Probe May 22nd, 2008, 04:40 PM

Oh, and I forgot to add, "555's rock!" The 555 is an integrated circuit (IC ) that is found in just abo ut anything electronic. Used
a s a "one-sh ot" tim e r , y o u c a n m a k e s i m ple, cheap (<$2), reliable tim ers that ca n be used in initiators. Just google "555" a n d
"one-shot" and you'll find all sorts of info and schematics available. Use it to gate a capacitor's discharge through an SCR, a n d
y o u h a v e a l l t h e a m p s y o u n e e d t o h e a t a s m a ll piece of wire hot enough to vaporise.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > PGP Virtual Disks & PGP SDA
Cracked!
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View Full Version : PGP Virtual Disks & PGP SDA Cracked!
nbk2000 August 28th, 2006, 02:06 AM

S o m e o n e h a s f i g u r e d out how to (in certain circum stances) allow an attacker to defeat the security of PGP encrypted volum e s
and self-extracting archives.
http://www.safehack.com/Advisory/pgp /PGPcrack.html#Two_Ways_to_byp ass_PGP_SDA_Authentic ation
Discuss.
Chris The Great August 28th, 2006, 05:50 AM

O k , s o I r e a d t h a t ( a n d i t b r o u g h t b a c k s o m e f o n d m e m ories of using a HEX editor to bypass passwords on those annoying
a d m in program s in highschool) and from what I understand, it o nly works if they have a copy with the original password that
they already know.
However, it looks like they are finding a way to work aro u n d t h e p a s s w o r d , a n d m a y h a v e h i t u p o n s o m ething that will
eventually lead them to their goal.
Very worrying... I'll definately play around with this though. I'll probably have som e better discussion then.

Currently, it's a big enough hole to worry about. I'd hold off changing system s just yet, though.
The issue isn't with the actual encryption, it is with the a uthentication of the user. A user who can unencrypt can be revoked
normally, but this hack m eans that they can get back in. This hole only exists if such a user exists. If it doesn't, then there is
no risk (currently) as this isn't an attack on the encryption engine itself.
ravn S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2006, 09:26 AM

From what I understand, for this to be effective you must,
1. Give your encrypted disk and the master passphrase to a second person.
2. Decide that you no longer want them to acce ss the contents. (change the m a s t e r p a s s p h r a s e )
3 . T h e s e c o n d person obtains a new copy of your disk.
T h i s e n t i r e s c e n a r i o c a n b e a v o i d e d b y r e a d i n g t h e m a n ual. From the m a n u a l :
Be aware tha t copies of your PGP Virtual Disk volume use the sam e underlying encryption key as the original. If you exchange
a copy of your volum e with another and both change your master passwords, both of you are still using the same key to
encrypt the data. W hile it is not a trivial operation to recover the key, it is not im p o s s i b l e . Y o u c a n c h a n g e t h e u n d e r l y i n g k e y
by re-encrypting the volum e.
The "attack" only happens when you have added new content to the disk that you do not want anyone else to access. So re-
encrypt the volum e when you change your passphrase. This whole issue is m ore of an attack on a persons inability or
unwillingness to follow simple security procedures.
This could also be avoided by having the software (pgp) re-encrypt the volume everytim e y o u c h a n g e t h e p a s s p h r a s e ;
however, doing this would neg ate the ability for people to share an encrypted volum e.
m y 2 cents.
++++++++
NO self-signing of posts. NBK

Everyone keeps focusing on the virtual disk, but ignoring the self-extracting archive crack.
By m odifying the SDA file, you can extract the contents without passphrase authentication. THAT is an issue!
Yes, the virtual disk would likely to contain m ore incrim inating in formation, but the SDA is more likely to contain such things as
backup's of your keys, lists of passphrases, or things you'd be sharing with someone else through a pre-arranged passphrase,
as it doesn't require keeping around a 'terrorist' application like PGP.
akinrog S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2006, 10:54 PM

Yes, the virtual disk would likely to contain m ore incrim inating in formation, but the SDA is more likely to contain such things as
backup's of your keys, lists of passphrases, or things you'd be sharing with someone else through a pre-arranged passphrase,
as it doesn't require keeping around a 'terrorist' application like PGP.
Since I'm a p a r a n o i d g u y , I h a v e b e e n , from the very beginning of m y PGP disk use, suspicious of the PGP Enterprise edition
which is widely circulated in P2P networks.
After m a n a g i n g t o g e t t h e F r e e O TFE going, I copied pgp volumes from all my DVDs and m ounted volum es, copied the conte nt
t o F r e e O T F E v o l u m e s a n d d e s t r o y e d D V D s t o g e ther with backups and burned the FreeOTFE volume s on DVDs now.
M a y b e I ' m e x a g e r a t i n g b u t a s s u m e t h a t g o v e r n m ent applied pressure to authors of the PGP to leave a security hole when
certain authorization code (possibly the one supplied with certain copy of Enterprise edition that everyone can get P2P
networks) is used. No t im p o s s i b l e I M H O . R e g a r d s .

I don't use h igher the version 7, because the source code isn't publicly available on the newer versions of PGP (AFAIK), thus
suspect.
I'm thinking about using OTFE, but PGP 7 is so functional I'm loath to switch. I might start using it for portable USB drives,
though.
akinrog S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2006, 06:43 AM

I don't use h igher the version 7, because the source code isn't publicly available on the newer versions of PGP (AFAIK), thus
suspect.
At the beginning, I tried using the last public open source version of PGP (IR R C 6 .X.X.X version). However, that version creates
a l o t o f p r o b l e m s o n a W i n M E m a c h i n e and most importantly on XP m a c h i n e s , d e s p i t e I u s e d t h e c o m p a t i b i l i t y m o d e . : m a d :
F o r e x a m ple the last open source version m ounts volum es but refuses to assign a letter to the volumes. :m ad:
So I switched to the widely available version (8.x.x.x) and used it for quite a long tim e. However all disk vo lum e s a r e g o n e
now. :D
Meawoppl S e p t e m b e r 1 9th, 2006, 12:39 AM

Guess it is back to the good o l d " U s e o n c e p a d " ; p
Switch to linu x and get a 4096 bit encrypted partition, and keep your key in a usb drive up your ass.
Nothing beats that se curity right?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Battery Powered Alarms
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Minion5 September 14th, 2006, 11:51 PM

I've been looking at a few security precautions for my home, and I think that a battery powered alarm (one that does not alert a security company) would be an interesting
use. Perhaps I could place ten around the hallway, some obvious and some not so obvious? They are small and inexpensive, meaning it would fit in my budget.
Here's how it works: There is a short range sensor, and, when broken, sets off a loud alarm-sounding noise to scare intruders. As luck would have it, the noise made by these
things are generally ear-piercing. Imagine ten in an area... ;)
This came to mind because I want my house protected from any LEO's that may try to enter my home when I'm not there.
The downside would be the fact that they are just noise makers. It would be a great tactic for alerting the neighbours to an intruder (perhaps inform them that if they hear a
lot of alarms, grab a rifle and get to work :rolleyes: ) and, perhaps, scare the intruder off. Maybe even add a false camera (and a real camera, but a bit more unnoticable?)
Has anyone here had any experience with this or implimented anything similar in their home? Do you think that this is a good idea?
AcidWench September 22nd, 2006, 07:27 AM

How often would you have to replace the batteries? If you had 10 alarms around your hallway then it could be rather expensive.
zeocrash September 23rd, 2006, 02:22 PM

AFAIK most alarm systems have some kind of battery on them. This is to stop burglars simply cutting the power to your house and stealing your shit.
I remember when my last burglar alarm finally went mental, we cut the power and had to wait 7 hours until it ran out of batteries and stopped making noise.
As for LEOs in your home, if they're going to gather evidence, they'll probably have a search warrant, in which case an alarm won't scare them off. If they don't have an alarm,
then any half decent lawyer could have their evidence gathered without the warrent thrown out of court in an instant.
sbovisjb1 September 23rd, 2006, 03:12 PM

This forum post does bring up an interesting consideration
http://www.criticalsecurity.net/index.php?showtopic=16069
The person who posted that can set off his house alarm systems with his antenne. I asked him and he said that they were able to activate or set off a lot of electronic devices
with the radio.
festergrump September 23rd, 2006, 03:53 PM

If they don't have an alarm, then any half decent lawyer could have their evidence gathered without the warrent thrown out of court in an instant.
I'm assuming you mean if the LEOs enter your abode without permission or warrant and without responding to an alarm then all evidence they gather would be inadmissable in
a court of law, right?
One must also remember that in certain jurisdictions within the USA that "Hearsay on a Felony" is often grounds for entry and search of private property by LEOs WITHOUT a
warrant. Of course, with some work on your defense's part, this can also be thrown out by reasonable doubt of the hearsay, and the actual extent of the search is
questionable, often restricted to 'plain sight' seizures of property... but most definitely the case with alarm responces. No digging around, Mr. Piggy.
Never assume they won't just plant what they want on you to dig further if it serves their ultimate purpose, though. If they want to nail you for something, they will.
I've been looking at a few security precautions for my home

Avoidance of "The Eye" should be your first line of defense. Be un-noticeable and blend in. This is in regards to both piggies AND burglars...
Second line of defense should look something like this:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/PresaCanario-1.jpg
And finally, a good electric alarm should alert YOU and ONLY you. I've heard there are even car alarms that will call your cellphone when it's security has been breeched... From
that call on-- YOU decide what action to take. IMHO, this would be the best alarm of all to have. I've forgotten now where I saw such an alarm, though. I can't seem to find it.
Anyone help?

If you are looking for an alarm that will possibly deter people, in Australia we have 110 dB "Screamers".
Someone telling me about them said that they went off in his house accidentally and although he KNEW the de-activation code, because the panel was right under a screamer
he couldn't remember the code with that thing going off.
Just quickly festergrump
http://www.vidcam.com.au/sales/la9010.html.
Edit: Also, have a quick look at this link - http://www.electronics123.com/s.nl/it.A/id.383/.f?sc=8&category=43
festergrump September 25th, 2006, 12:58 PM

Just quickly festergrump
http://www.vidcam.com.au/sales/la9010.html.
Yeah, something along those lines, Alexires. It calls your cellular, though, and allows you to control the alarm from the phone, too.
I found some links:

http://www.tradebig.com/product.php?cid=20298&pid=34746
http://www.fuzing.com/vli/001370743373/Digitalrise_GSM_Car_Alarm
And even better, here's one for your home:

http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Wireless-intruder/p/2000000003844/3000000180138/sm/1000914938.htm
[EDIT: Just go to smarthome.com and check out some of their dialers to integrate into your current alarm system.
Here's a couple:
http://www.smarthome.com/7005.html
http://www.smarthome.com/7437.html /Edit]
Minion5 September 27th, 2006, 09:53 AM

A good electric alarm should alert YOU and ONLY you. I've heard there are even car alarms that will call your cellphone when it's security has been breeched... From that call
on-- YOU decide what action to take. IMHO, this would be the best alarm of all to have.
This idea is pretty interesting. It also makes logical sense, as I wouldn't want everyone and their mother to know my personal business (though I'd appreciate them grabbing a
rifle and getting to work).
I think you were referring to this?
http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/v500.html
festergrump September 27th, 2006, 06:53 PM

Sure. That will do nicely.
I'd probably go ahead and disable the strobe and siren but leave everything else working as it should. The strobe and siren leads could be of better use elsewhere in a loop
with only the motion detectors. :cool:
When you get the call and ascertain (by listening in to the sounds within the house via cellphone ;) ) that you do indeed have 'visitors', you place a call to your friendly
neighbor if you cannot be home in time to deal with the situation yourself.
"Hey, neighbor, I just got a call from my alarm and it seems someone has broken into my house. Mind checking it out for me? Bring that .44 mag you love so well and some
zip-ties... Oh, and they've tripped the rear window circuit and the door to the chemical shed out back... No barking from Spike, so they must've taken him out of the picture
somehow. I'll be there in 15 minutes and enter through the front, so don't go 'guns-a-blazing' in that direction without positive ID!".
Of course, if it's the piggies searching through your house and not some punk burglars, you'll know that too, just by listening in to your house... THEY won't even feel the need
to be quiet about it. That's when you re-arm the system, but this time with the motion detectors and "SHTF Device" loop ("SHTF Device"-- be it IED, incendiary, pepper spray,
smoke, ect.) and head on with your bugout bag.
The next call you get should be but moments from hanging up from your 1st alarm call... but a call to smile about this time... :)
c.Tech September 28th, 2006, 05:07 AM

If its the cops raiding your house you wouldn t want to take the risk of sending anyone in there with a gun, the piggies could kill if a threat like that popped out of
nowhere, legally too. Its not worth the risk.
Minion5 September 28th, 2006, 08:41 AM

If its the cops raiding your house you wouldn t want to take the risk of sending anyone in there with a gun, the piggies could kill if a threat like that popped out of
nowhere, legally too. Its not worth the risk.
Also very true. However, my purpose for this specific alarm would be to watch for LEO's with no warrent that try to enter my home when I'm away.
A police raid...that's another topic issue. :rolleyes:
festergrump: The "SHTF" idea sounds quite nice (and would be a call to remember), though it goes to say that this might bring more LEO's to my home (or less, depending on
the "victimized piggy." Perhaps using pepperspray would be my best bet since it's a legal self-defense weapon?

I guess I could have been a little more clear on that. Cops don't enter through windows, though, preferring to batter in the front door... Besides, you'd be able to hear the cops
talking within your house while on your cellphone. Again, they've no need to be quiet.
If it were YOUR house and it was me you had called as your friendly neighbor, upon seeing the swarming cops all over your abode, I'd be inclined to give you a call back and
let you know what the deal was, then stand off.

If you have one of these (http://www.stopthecrime.com/prod-repulsar1.htm) in every room, ready to be fired on command via your cellular alarm, then you're sitting pretty.
:)
Cops...fuck 'em. :p
Thieves...fuck 'em too. :D

:D Ha ha! How convenient, NBK!
Minion, your post hadn't yet gone through so I didn't see it until just this morn...
...my purpose for this specific alarm would be to watch for LEO's with no warrent that try to enter my home when I'm away.
I gathered that from the first post, but burglars can be felled with the same swoop (just different tactics. I'd want the burglars alive and under my provisions of punishment),
and depending on what you had to hide would dictate the amount of 'anti-piggie defense' used in SHTF device. I was also assuming you had already planned to have a bugout
bag in your car with everything you'd need to avoid ever needing to return to your home, just in case you could be convicted and sentenced on whatever contraban you had at
the house.
If it's a warrantless search (you're positive of their lack of a warrant) and you've nothing to hide then the OC spray buds NBK suggests would be ideal (and legal), and a call
placed to the local news network after the cops find themselves gasping mercilessly at their situation should work out great... Plan to arrive just when the news crew gets there
so everything that ensues upon your arrival is caught on tape. Any weapon they can use can be turned against them-- news media included.
Pissed off cops do incredibly stupid things even in front of cameras. You'd win that battle for sure. :)

nbk, the more I read your posts, the more I am impressed. The problem with that little device is that sometimes the LEO's wear protective masks instead of balaclavas.
Including a 130+ dB ultrasonic screen to back up the spray would have them wreathing in pain. I do not believe ultrasonic pain fields are unlawful, yet. Use a hefty battery
backup to keep it from being shut down by a "power outage". You also want a way to easily and rapidly shut it down in case you trigger it.
It would also pay to have small cameras to record their activities, so you do not have to rely on CNN to come by and videotape the event. It should be recorded both on and
off site. They find and destroy the on site recording, and will be less likely to look for the off site recording. These recordings may be the only evidence of misdeeds by the
LEO's while destroying your property.
Back in '83 while in Arizona, the DEA, local sherrif and police raided a ranch they suspected of growing pot. They brought a photographer from the local newspaper. No drugs,
just two kids under 12, their parrents at the school being tested to home school their kids. The photog took a picture of this stormtrooper in black, wearing a bulletproof vest
and protective mask, aiming his M-16 at these two kids. They had the wrong address on the search warent. That picture was in the news in several papers.
Having helped design alarm systems many years ago, I know how to bypass them. The idea of having the alarm notify you is excellant. Using a private security agency would
leave open the possibility of the LEO's contacting them, and shutting off the system for them. Many alarm systems allow you to program a contact phone number. I would
have the system use a cell phone to keep anyone from cutting the phone lines and blocking it.
Also have alarm sensors cross-monitor each other to reduce the possibility of someone deactivating a sensor without triggering another. PIR's (passive infrared) can be
defeated by an IR flood that rises slower than the internal PIR circuit's adjusting to the background IR. After that, you become invisable to the PIR, as long as you do not block
the flood. Get the more expensive PIR's that detect this.
These days, it is the neo-Gestapo, Dept. of Homeland Security, that you have to worry about. They do not always need warrents, and the warrents they get are from a secret
court.
If a dog, the best alarm system ever devised, is not an option, you may want to try an alarm called "Rex." It emits a radio signal and listens for a dopplar shift. When
someone moves, even if it's their heart beating, it starts barking like a dog. The stronger the return signal, the louder and more insistant the barking. I've seen it for $80 on the
internet.

There are PIR's that combine doppler shift microwave (radar) with DSP to provide very effective detection with minimal falsing.
Combing such PIR's with IR breakbeams, pressure mat switches, capacitance detectors, volumetric pressure sensors, and all the rest...makes it VERY VERY difficult for any sort
of bypass or falsing when you combine sensor events required for triggering.
You could gradute the response levels too, such as sonics going off at any one sensor tripping, since the sonics are non-consumable and non-damaging.
2 sensors triggering set off the sonics plus an aubible warning plus dialing your phone.
3 sets off everything, since it indicates a continuing presence and is definately not a false alarm.
If your lair ;) was underground, and only had one entrance, you could set the radar dog to detect anything approaching through the door, before they actually got to it, sending
something unpleasant THROUGH the door. :D

A PIR (passive infrared) sensor picks up the infrared from your body heat. This is what an infrared flood jams, much like a radio jammer blocks a radio receiver. "Rex" uses the
microwave dopplar detector you mention. In the early '70's, I had to repair a dopplar microwave intrusion sensor. It would pick up a person walking toward it at about 100 m,
and the beating of your heart at about 12 m. A concrete wall with rebar reduced this somewhat.
Sonics are disorienting, and will impare communications. Ultrasonics, which are above 20 kilohertz, will only be heard by dogs. At levels above about 130 dBm, they induce pain
in the body. If someone does not know what is causing it, it can be quite effective at chasing them out of the area. At that level, dogs will be in tremendous pain, as it affects
their hearing. Combined with the CS or pepper spray, and they may confuse the ultrasonic induced pain to be part of the pepper spray.
Another little trick I prepared for several people is a jewlery box surprise. Line the inside of a jewlery box with aluminum foil, and wire six to a dozen flashbulbs in parallel. A set
of batteries, a normally closed switch, and a second normally open switch are wired in series to the flash bulbs. The normally close switch is fastened so that the lid holds it
open. The normally open switch is fastend opposite a small hole in the side. Place on a dresser with the lid closed, insert a tight fitting pin to close the normally open switch to
arm it. Anyone who opens the jewlery box looking for goodies with recieve "enlightenment" instead. The one time it was triggered, the individual left without any booty.
Something similar could also be used to activate an alarm.
I like the graduated response. What if the alarm system were to contact a pocket computer (Blackberry?) to display what sensors are activated, and which had been active.
This will allow tracking the intruder, and give an indication of how many there are. That info would help the porcine types to do what we pay them to do.
Something I have in my office, that has convinced some peddlers to go elsewhere, is a working replica of a full scale 12 pounder field mortar from the War of 1812. When you
enter, you are staring down a 4.2 inch bore of this gun. A gift from my niece some years ago. I also have a solid shot cannonball for it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > "Upgrade" your hotplate
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stupid939 October 1st, 2006, 01:05 AM

I'm guessing that most of the guys that are serious about making explosives use quality hotplates. But what about all the other guys that use cheap hotplates from places like
Wal-Mart? This is for those guys.
I was skimming through one of my many catalogs that I get from companies and I saw something labeled "Temperature Controller Kit". It is a kit (needs to be soldered
together) that holds a relay (not included) closed until the temperature reaches a certain set point. When it gets to that point, the electromagnet lets loose and completes the
circuit for whatever you want. The temperature is adjustable, but you would have to test it and mark where each degree changes on the variable resistor (or whatever it is).
When I saw the kit, I immediately though about using it for a cheap hotplate. I have read that many people on this forum use cheap hotplates from Wal-mart or similar stores.
This would be an alternative to buying expensive hotplates, and you could "upgrade" your cheap brand for about $12 plus shipping.
I have a VWR Scientific Hotplate/stirrer, and I believe that the temperature control circuit is very similar to what this one's. It heats up, and once it reaches the set point, it turns
on and off maintaining a temperature.
All that you would need to do for this hotplate is:
1) Solder the kit together

2) Add the relay
3) Splice one of the wires of your hotplate's cord
4) Connect them to the relay
5) Connect the circuit to a wall wart (dc power supply)
6) Flip it on and mark each degree
I don't know if you could get the kit somewhere else, but to cut down on shipping, I would get all of the components from the same place. The links to the different things that
I found are:
Kit - http://mpja.com/directview.asp?product=5289+RB
Power supply - http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=16398+PD
Relay - http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=12986+RL
I do not know that the relay would work, but I'm guessing that it would if you get a power supply that is 12V or higher. The Kit says that it works from 6-15V and will sink up
to 100 mA to the relay. That said, I think that the power supply would suffice, but I am not too electronically inclined (but maybe a little more than some of you guys).
Depending on how much your hotplate costs (I would guess from $10-20, but I will use $20 here), then I would say the temp. controlled hotplate would cost around $32 plus
shipping and handling. That seems like a better price than a few hundred dollars.
Let me know if you guys see any flaws to my "plan", and if someone does decide to construct this, let us know how (if) it works.
Here is a link to a picture of what it could look like. I threw it together in photoshop.
http://stupid939.tripod.com/hotplate
If any of the links don't work, try to copy and paste in the address bar.
tmp October 1st, 2006, 10:56 AM

I used one of those coffee warming hotplates for many years. I had to
constantly monitor the temperature. This is until I found two of the
variable-rate(one a dual burner !) on eBay for a relatively low price. What
you've done is an excellent workaround if you're limited on funds and can't
afford those overpriced units from scientific supply houses. Good job !
DonS October 1st, 2006, 03:04 PM

The "Temperature Alarm Kit" photo seems to have two potentiometers. To me, it seems likely that those allow for adjustable hysteresis; that is, it not only controls the
temperature at which the external relay opens, but also the temperature at which it closes again.
If the above is true, adjusting the unit for various hot plate temperatures might be somewhat difficult (or, at least, a bit tedious). You'd want the two "trip points" far enough
apart that the relay wasn't buzzing, but not so far that you get wide temperature swings. Once you had it set, though, it would likely be very stable - much more so than hand-
controlling a cheap hot plate by itself, or the device I describe below.
The electric burner I've been using (Toastmaster TTS1, $15 US) uses what appears to be either a bi-metal strip or a piece of spring steel in series with the heating element.
Once this component reaches a certain temperature, it "clicks" open and begins cooling; after it has cooled enough, it clicks back, closing the circuit again. Rotating the unit's
control knob moves, very slightly, one end of the strip, changing the threshold temperature(s).
This device probably isn't as accurate as the arrangement stupid939 presents, but it might be another alternative for the budget-limited.
Hirudinea October 2nd, 2006, 09:09 PM

What about using an electric skillet or frying pan? They usually have a temperature controll and can be bought fairly cheap at Goodwill.
jellywerker October 3rd, 2006, 01:05 AM

Exactly, but the temperature control usually isn't very accurate. This allows you to modify a cheap hotplate/skillet into a decently precise hotplate. I'm still just scanning ebay
for a decent used one with a chem resistant ceramic top. I don't want to see what various acids would do to a metal hotplate (with electricity running through it, naturally) in
the case of an accident. Of course using a sand bath or water bath also helps precision a bit.
stupid939 October 3rd, 2006, 01:28 AM

An electric skillet or frying pan would work, but I don't know how well they maintain the temperature. As with the hotplate I described, you would most likely want to use a
water or oil bath to keep the temperature even more constant.
Most of the time the skillets or frying pans go up to around 250*C and there are not very many increments. They usually go by 20-40*C increments, and for most synths, you
want to keep it in about a 5*C range. It may be hard to control this, but I cannot speak from experience.
You could also add the circuit and relay to the skillet or frying pan and hook it up the same way, and it would probably control the temperature better. Especially with a water
or oil bath.
c.Tech October 3rd, 2006, 08:29 AM

and for most synths, you want to keep it in about a 5*C range. It may be hard to control this, but I cannot speak from experience.
If you wanted to keep the temperature at 5*C you wouldnt need a hotplate in the first place, just a cheep thermometer and an ice bath or fridge (possibly a bar fridge
just for your chemicals like me. :))
nbk2000 October 3rd, 2006, 02:30 PM
c.Tech, I don't know whether to think that you're attempting a joke with the above post, or if you just don't understand what was written. :rolleyes:
Cobalt.45 October 3rd, 2006, 06:04 PM

"possibly a bar fridge..."
Enough said.;)
deadman October 4th, 2006, 03:53 AM

It looks like c. Tech thought he meant at 5 degrees not the increments that stupid969 meant. It was 3:29 am afterall. It happens.
Cobalt what do you mean enough said by "possibly a bar fridge...". I consider multiple fridges a necessity in houses shared with family, friends, and the your familie's friends.
You need one for the keystone, one for the real stuff, and a third maybe for other reasons. I think food belongs somewhere too, but hey, what else were we given women for.

c.Tech, I don't know whether to think that you're attempting a joke with the above post, or if you just don't understand what was written. :rolleyes:
:o The second one...
Deadman thanks for the support but it was earlier than that, I was tired and had the flu though.
Cobalt.45 October 7th, 2006, 02:15 AM

I once built a lead melter, using a road kill electric oven temp control. It was capable of handling the wattage, and was "fine tunable" enough to hold temps within 8*F range.
These are expensive new, but "dead" ranges are often left by the side of the road to be picked up with the trash. Wiring diagrams are almost always glued to the back side of
the front panel. You'll also need the thermocouple.
Might this be adaptable to a hot plate to better control temps?

Another good place to look is a vending company; as they usually have a pile of machines outside waiting to be scraped, and are often willing to let you scavenge them for
parts.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Ball Milling with a Vibratory Tumbler
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30yearstoolate! October 10th, 2006, 01:51 AM

On the subject of ball milling many E&W members are using rotary rock tumblers for ball milling. I work at a tool store and they sell them quite inexpensively. But they also sell
a "Vibratory Tumbler" for slightly more. I wanted to know if this would work better or faster than the average cheap rock tumbler. Here is a link.
http://www.harborfreight.com/ search by item number for 93252
Basically how this type of tumbler works is it shakes the contents of the drum and breaks up the material. Many ammunition reloaders use these type to polish their brass
shells.
I would be interested to know if any members are currently using a similar tumbler and how well it works. I figured that other members could tell me if I should pay the $39.99
to purchase a vibritory tumbler or stick to the tried and true method and get a rotary tumbler that is on sale for $21.99.
Thanks in advance,
30years
[edited to fix the link]
Cobalt.45 October 20th, 2006, 12:32 PM

These "vibratory tumblers" have interested me, also.
The thing I wonder about is how to prevent the separation of the media from the mixture being milled, as well as separating the constituents of the mixture itself.
If you were to use media with a similar density as what you're milling, separation might not be too much of a problem. But the mechanical action would be compromised.
Any thoughts as to how to get around this?
nbk2000 October 20th, 2006, 02:43 PM

The shape of the vibratory tumbler cause a circulation 'current' where the stuff goes down in the middle, and rises up on the perimeter (or vice-versa), so media segregation
shouldn't be a problem.
30yearstoolate! October 24th, 2006, 05:10 PM

So would a vibritory tumbler be effective for ball milling? Or would the tried and true method work the best? Also should I use a different media with it or stick to brass balls?
Just curious for some input.

Also should I use a different media with it or stick to brass balls?
Could I say UTFSE to that?

In the past I have used the vibration type tumblers in cleaning and polishing brass casings; usually you start with an empty bowl, add your brass and then cover the brass with
corncob Or walnut media.
Fifty .45ACP cases take about 24 hrs to clean with walnut, dont know if the bowl or motor will hold up to the heavy milling media needed.
Check the RCBS or Lyman websites.
Cobalt.45 October 26th, 2006, 07:17 AM

don t know if the bowl or motor will hold up to the heavy milling media needed.
A six pound capacity tumbler is a six pound tumbler. Whether it six pounds of ammo brass/corncob or brass balls and KClO4, it cares not.
The tumbler mentioned by 30ytl! is made for continuous use.
The question is, has anyone tried using it in place of a ball mill?
Personally, I believe if it were a viable alternative, we'd have heard about it before now.
IMHO, unless you have an alternative use for a vibe tumbler, it's not worth the gamble.
30yearstoolate! October 26th, 2006, 10:03 PM

Thanks for the information, I'll stick to the regular tumbler.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Making Forensic Products
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View Full Version : Making Forensic Products
cracker November 1st, 2006, 04:20 PM

By using Material Safety Data Sheets I have been able to make Forensic Products that work.
I started by using Sirchie Fingerprint Labratories UV734 Invisible Writing Ink. By utilizing a solution of 1.2 parts Leucophor AP (the BSB isn't made anymore) to 98.8 parts distilled
Water I have been able to produce a very effective invisible ink that produces a bright blue under UV light.
By taking the same Leucophor AP liquid (that I got sampled from Clariant Corporation) I was able to duplicate Sirchies UV7311 & UV 743E Invisible Metal Marking & Skin
Marking Ink. This left an invisible mark for several days on my hand. Then came UV201 Fluorescent Invisible Detection Powder.
By utilizing a mix of 4 parts Green Crayola Powder paint, 64 parts Zinc Stearate & 32 parts Zinc Sulfide(Activated) I have been able to easily make a "theftpowder".
When dusted on a 20$ bill this is almost invisible yet produces a bright green glow on my hand after touching it. After scrubbing my hands underwater I noticed the underneath
part of my fingernails still glowed under the blacklight.
This was from one contact, not mixing the powder.
I went on to duplicate UV201-UV207 Theft Powders (a blend of colors for special purpose detection).
Luminol had to be next, part# (Luminol16).
Using a mix of 5 parts 3-Aminophthalhydrazide (purchased from Post Apple Scientific Supply), 85 parts Sodium Carbonate & 10 parts Sodium Perborate Tetrahydrate I have
been able to make a dry powder Luminol product that just needs distilled Water added before use.
Currently I've been working on BV100 Blueview Gunpowder Partical Test Kit, a test for gunshot residue.
I have had great success With SPR Spray (small partical reagent), Indestructible Fingerprint Powders, Invisible Crayons, etc.
There is no doubt there are many, many more products that could be copied. I would like to also say that Sirchie is the leading supply to Law Enforcement, so these products
are what "they" use.
I would love to hear other recipes for forensic products. I am still very much in the learning stages with this. But I can tell you one thing, the more you use them the more uses
they have!
cracker November 2nd, 2006, 02:19 PM

Aluminum Powder 2-4 micron
Diphenylamine (Wards Natural Science)
Boric Acid (Most Stores)
Cabosil M-5 (got mine as a sample from Cabot Corp.)
Charcoal Powder Airfloat (Skylighter Inc.)
Citric Acid (Most stores)
Ethyl Alcohol (most stores)
Glycerol (most stores)
Graphite (Wards Natural Science, Most Stores)
Hydrogen Peroxide (most Stores)
Iron Oxide Black (Firefox Enterprises)
Iron Oxide red (ceramic supply)
Isoprophyl Alcohol (any store)
Lamp Black (Post Apple Scientific Supply)
Leucophor AP (got mine sampled from Clariant)
Lycopodium Powder (Wards Natural Science)
Methyl Alcohol (Post Apple Scientific)
Niaproof 4 (got mine sampled from Niacet Corp.)
Ninhydrin (Wards Natural Science)
Petroleum Jelly (any store)
Phenolphthalein (Wards Natural Science)
Phosphoric Acid (Wards Natural Science)
Sodium Bicarbonate (anystore)
Sodium Carbonate-Anhydrous (Post Apple Scientific,stores)
Sodium Hydroxide (most stores)
Sodium Hypochlorite (any store)
Sodium Perborate Tetrahydrate (Post Apple Scientific)
Thymolphthalein (Wards Natural Science)
Titanium Dioxide (Post Apple Scientific,pottery supply)
Trichloroethylene (Post Apple Scientific)
Zinc Stearate (Post Apple Scientific)
Zinc Sulfide-Activated (Post Apple Scientific)
Invisible Pigments (Dayglo Corp. gives free samples of Phantom pigments and Optical Brighteners)
Wards Natural Science takes a business liscense, the rest are retail.
cracker February 7th, 2007, 01:22 PM

There are many Similarities between Forensic Science Products and Pyrotechnic Compositions.
I say this with hope in mind of inspiring a "second look" at the world of information offered here >http://www.sirchie.com/msds.asp
Take a look at this - http://www.sirchie.com/msds/105l.pdf
The Stearic Acid stabilizing this Fingerprint Composition reminded me of how close this is to Flash Powder.
This following week I will be using a 15lb Ball Mill purchased from FIREFOX ENTERPRISES to further reduce Forensic Powders. 3-Aminophthalic Hydrazide granules are actually
quite stubborn:rolleyes:
Advancing my time and money into learning about these products has greatly increased my Knowledge in many areas.
I encourage anyone who wants to know more to exhaust the link I have provided and get back to the Forum.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > C reation of a sm o k e m a c h i n e .
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View Full Version : Creation of a smoke machine.
DeathBlade Novem ber 13th, 2006, 01:21 AM

W ell last yea r right after halloween a friend gave m e t h i s s m o k e m achine that he bought for a party, and n e e d l e s s t o s a y I
couldn't find a use for it so I sat in the closet. That was till a cou ple of weeks ago there was a large paintball m atch com i n g u p
a t o u r l o c a l f i e l d , a n d i f I c a n p r o v i d e s o m e s m o k e b o m bs they usually g ive m e s o m e f r e e p a i n t . S o I t h o u g h t o f t h e s m o k e
m achine aga in and thought why couldn't I power it off a inverter and car battery b ut at 700 watts if drains the battery rather
quickly and it would b e a pain to lug battery and inverte r around. But then I could possible rewire the unit to use 12 volts
instead of 120 so I wouldn't need a inverter, th at was a failure; but it showed me how simple it was inside. It was just a
h e a t i n g e l e m ent, with a coil of thin copper tube wrapped around it a pum p t o p u s h t h e s m oke fluid through a n d a t e m p switch
to turn it on when it h a d h e a t e d e n o u g h.
So I decided why couldn't I just change the heat source? I pulled the coil off of the heater and rewound it onto a piece of 3/4"
cast iron pipe and then pointe d the flam e from a blowtorch though it after a few minutes, I then tu r n e d o n t h e p u m p a n d
success it produced sm oke. But then I started to think again the pum p still needed electricity, so decided to power the unit off
only propane.
http://img21 .imagefiasco.com /im a g e s / A E g 3 8 2 5 4 . g i f
In this pic yo u c a n s e e t h e t a n k o f s m o k e f l u i d a t t h e t o p , a n d i o n t h e l e f t p r o p a n e t a n k , a n d h o s e . A n d o n t h e r i g h t the

radiators, coil, pipe, and torch head. (and on the left a next gen coil heater)
The torch heats the p ipe and coil causing the sm o k e f l u id to turn into a aerosol fog, to not use ele ctricity I added the end cap
with the radiator fins that enter the fog tank, the radiators heat the sm oke fluid to pressurize the tank serving forcing it out
into the heated coil m a k i n g s m o k e . S o n o n e e d f o r a p u m p, (also I forgot on the pic there is a valve between the tank and the
coil.)
T h e n e x t g e n u n i t i s o n t h e r i g h t a n d s h a p e d l i k e a " M " t h e f l a m es from the torch enter in the center of the "m ". An d the two
outer prongs are filled with lead, as the heat from the torch the lead m elts and retains heat the heat better than just a piece of
pipe would. Though with this design I woud have to use a windshield wiper pum p(12 volt) so I would need a battery with this
design, though with two pipe coils and a higher pressure feed from the windshield pum p a g u e s s I c a n a t l e a s t d o u b l e m y
s m o ke output.
Any com m e n t or suggestions?
Alexires Novem ber 14th, 2006, 04:41 AM

In the all knowing words of R TPB -
K.I.S.S - Kee p It Sim ple Stupid.
W hy use a propane b urner to heat up lead, to heat up copper, to heat up the smoke liquid?
You could po s s i b l y u s e s o m e other kin d of pipe, run a current th rough it and using the heat generated from the resistance,
vaporise the smoke liquid.
Or, if you are m a k i n g sm o k e b o m b s , u s e a m ix of the old favorite KNO3/Sugar with a fair amount of Sodium Bicarbonate in it,
and surround a container full of sm oke liquid with it. I h ave had a KNO 3/Sugar/NaHCO3 burn hot for 25 minutes, so I'm sure
that would be enough tim e t o h a v e a s m o k e b o m b go for.
If you simply had a fast burning version for a quarter of the m ix ture to g et the heat up, then the slow burning version that
lasted for about 3-5 m inutes, you could have a fair am ount of sm o k e h a p p e n i n g I M H O .
DeathBlade Novem ber 14th, 2006, 09:17 AM

I don't think you understand, even with burn m odifiers a kno3/sugar/bicarb is going to be slightly unpredictable. W e l l e n o u g h
that I couldn't use it on the field, since m o s t s h e e p l e h e a r p y r o t e c h n i c s a n d : e e k :
You can shutdown the unit just be turning off the propane, can that be true for a pyro com p ? B e c a u s e i f I s e e a f o r m u l a t h a t
calls for 10% powdered ballvalve I'm g oing to run for the hills.
Also the first unit in the picture the only flame is from the pencil torch the flame is all of 3 inches long and a inch wide and a ll
of the flam e i s c o n t a i n e d i n t h e p i p e , k e e p i n g t h e u n i t i n s h e e p l e s a f e l i m its.
Also I don't have access to electricity o n the field so run ning a current through the pipe to produce heat via resistance if kind of
poin tless.
Though I can see what your saying about keeping it sim ple, I would prefer to elim inate the lead and just use solid steel/iron
r o d s t o c k t h a t h a s b e e n t h r e a d e d o n t h e e n d i n s t e a d . B u t I m ust make with what I have.
Hirudinea Novem ber 14th, 2006, 08:49 PM

Just a couple quick questions, what is this smoke mixtu r e m a d e o u t o f , d o e s i t p r o d u c e a n a c t u a l s m oke or just a m ist like
suspension of small liquid particles? W hy I wan t to know is I was wondering if it would be possible to put so m e m o r e
"interesting" substances into the sm o k e m ixture, poisio ns, psycedelics, etc?
Skean Dhu Novem ber 14th, 2006, 10:40 PM

All you ever wanted to know about sm o k e m a c h i n e s , m aking your own fluids etc.
http://www.em anator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/sm o k e . h t m
I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to put augm ent the fog to have other affects aside from obfuscation . So long as the
additives were stable within the normal operating tem peratures that are associated with fo g m achines.
DeathBlade Novem ber 14th, 2006, 11:40 PM

Hirudinea, I'm sure that certain additives could be adde d as long as they are are water soluble(m ayber glycerin/glycol soluble)
and as long as they are stable when they are h eated. But even then the unit gets very hot after awhile if you dont turn down
the flam e after the pipe is heated up to running tem p . T h e t e m p is greater than 500*c after 3 minutes (thats where m y
m ultim eter m a x e s o u t ) a n d a t t h a t t e m p I t h i n k t h a t g l y c o l s b r e a k d o w n i n t o p h o s g e n a n d o t h e r n a s t i e s .

A poison gas fogger...now that'd be a neat toy! :)
sparkchaser Novem ber 15th, 2006, 05:27 AM

If you are going to use propane, I would say ju st build som e nice big pyro sm o k e b o m bs to really keep it sim ple.
If you wanted to use the sm oke machine, I would go online and find out exactly what the electrical requirements are for it in
D C ( m o s t h o u s e h o l d a p p l i a n c e s r u n o n D C a f t e r the AC wall voltage has been rectified inside of the device). If nothing else,
you could m easure the voltage just past the rectifier stage while the unit is plugged in.
After you figure that out, it should be easy to find schematics to build a varible power regulator that will run directly off a car
battery.
If th e m achine requires AC internally for the he ating element or whatever, there are schematics on line for inverters that can be
m ade from radio shack parts, and are a bit less than 700 watts! Or you could just pop for a cheapo 50 or 100 watt inverter
from Auto Zone. they aren't that expensive.

A poison gas fogger...now that'd be a neat toy!
I've seen trucks with foggers on the news spraying out CS into crowds and always thought "Gee, I'ed love one of those!"
I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to put augm ent the fog to have other affects aside from obfuscation . So long as the
additives were stable within the normal operating tem peratures that are associated with fo g m achines.
I'm sure that certain additives could be added as long as they are are water soluble(m ayber glycerin/glycol soluble) and as
long as they are stable when they are heated.
But even then the unit gets very hot after awhile if you dont turn down the flam e after the pipe is heated up to runn ing tem p.
T h e t e m p is greater than 500*c after 3 m inutes (thats where m y m ultim e t e r m a x e s o u t ) a n d a t t h a t t e m p I think that glycols
breakdown into phosgen and other nasties.
That m a k e s s e n s e , a n d i t s e e ms a lot of additives would be suitable, I wonder if the active ingredient in poision ivy is water/
glycerin soluble? :) As for the heating, wouldn't proper flame adjustm e n t k e e p a c o n s t a n t t e m pture, it would just take longer
for it to heat up.
DeathBlade Novem ber 15th, 2006, 05:26 PM

Hirudinea, I don't think Urushiol is water soluble.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Magnetic fields affecting power
meters?
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View Full Version : Magnetic fields affecting power meters?
DMSOnMyVeins November 19th, 2006, 01:41 AM

A friend of mine was thinking about reducing his power bill. I remember hearing about using a magnetic field to affect the rate
at which the meter registers the amount of power being used.
He used a powerful neodymium magnet and moved it around the glass bulb on the meter and spent about 2 hours doing this
and no change in speed was noted. This meter is an old meter, probably older than 20 years so it shouldn't have the
safeguards newer meters have that resist magnetic anomolies.
Anybody know about magnetic anomolies affecting power meters and how it's done?:confused:
c.Tech November 19th, 2006, 01:54 AM

D o e s nt the power com pany have records of how mu ch electricity go es into your property and they just double check on the
power metre outside your house?
Why not just buy solar pallens (used) and hook them up to the power and your company should take it off the bill.
rayman November 19th, 2006, 08:36 AM

C.tech, I doubt there could be a second meter and they just use the one on the house to verify, There is no way to verify how
much is going where with out the meter at your house/use point

If a picture of the meter in question could be provided (all numbers obscured) than possible methods could be discussed.
Otherwise, we're just pulling our puds talking about it.
Cobalt.45 November 19th, 2006, 10:10 AM

The "traditional" method to rip the power company was to take a like meter from an empty house and insert it during high
current usage.
It requires the fashioning of a believable wire tamper indicator.
Also, most analog meters can be simply reversed by removing it and reinserting it upside down.
Magnetically altering the rate of the meter isn't likely to work as the internal parts are nearly all non magnetic
DMSOnMyVeins November 19th, 2006, 03:03 PM

Magnetically altering the rate of the meter isn't likely to work as the internal parts are nearly all non magnetic
The motor that turns the circular disc with the black line on it must be driven by an electromagnetically driven motor, lest it be
driven by pneumatic or hydraulic means.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/Electric_meter.jpg
This is what the meter looks like
Desmikes November 19th, 2006, 03:12 PM

During the shitty times of early 90's when I had trouble with money I recall using a homemade device (built by an underpaid
electritian) that would actually force the power meter to quickly SPIN BACKWARDS. It was about the size of a toaster, all that
you had to do was plug it into the outlet and make sure that you don't end up with less watts on your meter than you had a
month before ;) Now that I think about it there may have been a third wire going to the device, it's been a while, I don't
remember for sure. Anyone knows what I'm talking about?

AC currant consists of 2 wires, the third is probably the ground wire. The ground wire can be seen coming out of some
appliances.
Cobalt.45 November 19th, 2006, 10:55 PM

I have a Sangamo Watthour Meter Model 76000 here on the bench. Upon inspection, it's seen to be easily modified.
The obvious choice for me would be to take the glass off by removing first the meter from the panel, then by taking one clip
out and rotating the glass CCW and lifting it free, then tighten the bearing adjusting screws down to retard the rotor speed.
This is amazingly easy to do, other meters may vary.
Or, remove the lugs from the meter that allow current to flow, replacing them with jumper lugs.
Operate the meter at a reduced rate with a suitable motor geared to the meter's clock work.
Upon inspection by the meter reader, all would seem to be in order- all numbers match, and the meter's "running".
Due to the shielding and the distance of the motor from any outside magnetic source, I see no practical way to alter the rate
of the meter using a magnet.
DMSOnMyVeins November 19th, 2006, 11:22 PM

I have a Sangamo Watthour Meter Model 76000 here on the bench. Upon inspection, it's seen to be easily modified.
...
Due to the shielding and the distance of the motor from any outside magnetic source, I see no practical way to alter the rate
of the meter using a magnet.
The magnet idea just won't work. You're idea of manually adjusting the rate so that the motor turns slower sounds great, and
should go undetected. The only obstacle is finding a seal so one can reseal the box once they are done. Thanks.
+++++++++
Don't quote whole posts in the future. Thanks. NBK
Match November 20th, 2006, 09:57 AM

The power meters at some of our properties have digital read outs, although other still look like the typical glass covered
meters.
I find it hard to believe that a power company uses the meter as its sole form of usage indication simply because neither at
my place of residence nor work do I observe the technician coming out for a reading as often as once a month.... and we
receive a bill indicating our monthly usage.
In terms of fooling the device for whatever reason, perhaps subjecting the internals to different atmospheric pressures might
work. Although I don't see why rewiring the power to skip the device, or even reversing inputs/outputs wouldn't be the first
choice. This might be the best option as external attributes arn't covered in tamper proof seals.
-------------
In a high yielding grow operation, you might see several 1000w lights, water coolers, dehumidifiers, air conditions, water
pumps, cooling fans, auxiliary fans, carbon filters and UV scrubbers, among other things. I can only imagine the wattage of a
setup like that.
With 100s of thousands of dollars in potential profit, I don't see the point in risking it, neither do I see the point in risking
going to jail to save a couple bucks off your otherwise normal power usage. For the effort involved, you might as well generate
your own power.
The people that are smart usually end up producing their own additional power via diesel generators, others resort to stealing
power. I believe they do this by running a direct line to neighboring houses and mooching small amounts of power to hopefully
stay undetected.
I've been led to believe that if there is a relatively large increase in total power usage (say 3 fold) then what is typically to be
expected of the location, then the power company sends out an inspector.
I am also to understand that power companies have it setup so that they can actually read the hourly usage of your house.
Say for example you had one large flowering room with several lights all running off a timer, you'd have a huge amount of
usage for 12 hours a day and then almost no usage for the next 12 hours.
This could all be propaganda spread by the media and cracke d out ga nja smokers, as I m no expert.
Of course, it wouldn't be in the best interest of a power company to limit your power usage in any way (as long as they know
how much you're using)... But in Canada, most of the power companies are publicly owned (governmental) while others are
newly formed private companies. It's not hard to imagine that all power companies potentially have ties with the local pork.
One form of power generation that recently came to mind is to use your municipalities own water pressure (40 psi) to power
turbines. In locations where water usage isn't regulated, you could be free to produce as much power as you need... as long as
you can get rid of the water. :D
DMSOnMyVeins November 20th, 2006, 10:42 AM

Your modern meter can be "read" from the street by the meter readers equipment. The meter "broadcasts" the kwh by RF.
The power company still has the meter readers check these modern meters once in a while to check for tampering.
Here the meters are analouge and are read manually once a month. I see the meter reader every time he comes.

Say for example you had one large flowering room with several lights all running off a timer, you'd have a huge amount of
usage for 12 hours a day and then almost no usage for the next 12 hours.
This could all be propaganda spread by the media and cracke d out ga nja smokers, as I m no expert.
If you like to grow yourself a little treat such as some rich hydro crystalline buds *drools* then just have 2 rooms or split one
side of a room from the other.
For 12 hours of the day you have one room running, and the other 12 the second room/half room is running, that just makes
you look like your running more fridges/freezers clocks leaving lights on over night ect.
rayman November 20th, 2006, 06:35 PM

To hide higher usage what we did 20 some odd years ago is this, Find dead A/C units and welding equipment, place an A/C in
nearly every window, place the welding equipment in the garage and leave the door open more often then not so that it can be
seen
That was 20 some odd years ago, but the idea should still work to this day
They see lots of electrical equipment and they will ask no questions about your usage normaly, and if they do you mention
that you get heat rash alot
Alexires November 21st, 2006, 07:48 AM

Thats a good idea C.Tech, spread the usage out over a period of time so it doesn't look too suspicious,
The way to go would be to grow during winter using a 1000W light and some fans. The good thing about this is that it will be
mistook for a heater, but allow you to get enough funds to purchase a generator to supplement your power usage. But I don't
think that is what this thread is about.
I think that physically altering your meter would be the way to go. Almost anything is possible if you take the time and are
careful enough (which you can afford to do with your power meter.)
nbk2000 November 21st, 2006, 10:29 PM

As long as your meter is an analog dial type, you can stop or drag the wheel, to save on your power bill.
An associate of mine went to prison for doing this, but after having done it everyday for almost a decade, so be careful if you
decide to do it too.
What he originally did was drill in through the side of the plastic cover, parallel to the meter wheel, and push a piece of broom
through the hole to stop the wheel from turning.
But he had to remove the straw during the day, lest the meter reader find the wheel stopped.
Then they replaced the meter cover with a tempered glass cover, so drilling it was out of the question.
So...using a very long drill bit, he drilled behind the locking collar that held the glass dome onto the meter body, and used a
long piece of stiff plastic cord to reach down into the meter and drag on the meter wheel.
Since the piece only dragged on the wheel, the wheel never stopped turning, but it'd turn at only about a third to a quarter as
fast as it normally would. :)
charger November 24th, 2006, 08:47 PM

A growop was busted recently that was stealing electricity by just bypassing the meter.
What they did was bored large holes (8-10" diamter) from the basement to the hydro stack. The wires were seperated, and
they used a homemade displacement contactor (similar to the bed of nails on a linemans handset) to bleed extra electricity to
a seperate panel. The connections were made underground, before the meter.
I'm not sure how effective this is, as the growers were caught in the end, but it may lead to other ideas
Code Red November 24th, 2006, 11:49 PM

A hell of a long time ago, I was told placing honey (or other sweet liquids), around and in the meter, would attract ants to
nest.
The ants, of course, were then meant to block/stuff the meter.
Whether this idea will work, I'm not so sure... but it sounded ok!
With ants, the power company can't accuse you of any tampering!
rayman November 26th, 2006, 10:51 AM

I dont see ants getting inside the meter
I dont know if any meathod of slowing down the meter would work with the newer digital meters, I would think that if you
placed a strong megnetic field around it it may mess up the electronic controler, but would that also shut the meter off ... ie
no power flowing throught the meter ? I my self do not have the means or knowledge to know how to do somthign like my self
so I'll just go sit on the couch and listen into what you all have to say about it
Cancer January 17th, 2007, 11:19 PM

The power company relies solely on your meter for usage information. They have no way of knowing how much goes where.
Getting a new seal can be fairly easy. Just call your electric company for a new one. If questioned as to why, say that you had
an electric problem and the electrician checked voltage inside the meter. I've never known of an instance where the power
company pushes for more info than that. I also know of several electricians who have a ton of seals who will sell them.
CodeRed, the ants idea is bad news. I've gone on several service calls for loss of power, especially in the oilfied where jack
panels often have large holes in them, where ants were the problem. A large mass of dead ants, usually in connections like
wire nuts, can weaken or completely stop power.
At the moment I can't think of any "safe" ways around the meter. However, I will say that if, for whatever reason, you remove
your meter from the housing, turn off all power in your house first. All the small circuit breakers, and then the main breaker. If
you leave power on in the house and try to remove the meter it can cause a massive arc giving you flash burns, or blow the
meter up in your face.
I probably hate you January 23rd, 2007, 07:41 AM

You know if you wanted to be really tricky you could bore right into your conduit hook up a bypass rigged to timers that would
then be rigged to 120v 100 amp+ relays.
You could then run the timer that allows electricity through the meter during the daylight hours then the bypass at night to
lower you bill, and if you are growing something you could have it in a dark room and just give it light during the night hours
when your meter is bypassed.
If you were very careful with your wiring I doubt they would even be able to tell, and you could have your nice little timers all
stowed away with the relays in a hidden pannel in the wall (putting a picture over it would be easy).
If anyone does mess with any of this as has been said before be very careful getting killed to save a buck wouldn't be worth it
.

For the money, it wasn't really worth doing this. However, The War Against Terror has put up prices in the UK by over double
for gas and electric. Some estimates say that half of Liverpool are fiddling the electric meter.
You can stick a high powered magnet next to it. It makes the wheel spin backwards if you invert the field that normally spins
the wheel one way.
The other method is to drag the wheel. You drill a tiny hole, then put something in to slow the wheel down. Apparently the
latest way to do this is via a hole through the wall from the outside!
Usage is estimated, and they read the meter about every 6 months. UK law says that you must have a visual inspection of the
meters once every 2 years, and that the meters are the property of the supply co. and you *must* let them in.
DogOfWar May 22nd, 2007, 03:19 PM

The internal "motor" in a watt-hour meter is based on shaded pole technology and eddy current theory. Basically the
aluminum disk has a magnetic field induced on it by a winding that is "shunted" to achieve the proper calibration and
conversion factors to read out in kilowatt hours. The math is done in the gears.
So, A magnet of any kind WILL NOT have any noticeable effect on the meters rate of operation.
You can however build a device that will "power factor correct" your electrical loads. This device will cause the current and
voltage waveforms to be closer to "in phase" with each other, resulting in less harmonics and so reducing the rate at which the
meter runs. This can result in savings of up to 30% depending on what type of loads you have (inductive/resistive). Whats
more it's perfectly legal!
Gammaray1981 May 27th, 2007, 08:35 PM

I sincerely doubt that it is perfectly legal to tamper with your meter in such a fashion. After all, Big Brother owns the power, and
he doesn't like being cheated.
DogOfWar May 28th, 2007, 06:06 AM

Lots of companies/large users do this. Far as I know it's legal everywhere.
Definately in Texas USA! Even the power companies use this method to reduce the apparant load on thier systems!

I know the meter reader comes by sometime between the 22nd and 24th of each month. So we allow the meter to work as
normal for a week (can't look too efficient)... then we tilt it downwards for the rest of the time by unscrewing the top two screws
on the meter-mounting brackets.
A meter tilted in any direction at a 30 degree angle stops spinning.
Happy?
Oh... the meter is inside the gate. That's why I can do it. It isn't visible from the street. And we did try very powerful
magnets... they don't work.
salix May 28th, 2007, 10:13 AM

During the shitty times of early 90's when I had trouble with money I recall using a homemade device (built by an underpaid
electrician) that would actually force the power meter to quickly SPIN BACKWARDS. It was about the size of a toaster, all that
you had to do was plug it into the outlet and make sure that you don't end up with less watts on your meter than you had a
month before ;) Now that I think about it there may have been a third wire going to the device, it's been a while, I don't
remember for sure. Anyone knows what I'm talking about?
That device most likely is just inductive load. That device works with older mechanical meters, newer ones have special
mechanism that prevents spinning backward. The power meter measures active load, if most of load is reactive, disc starts to
spin backward. I guess, one can make such a device out of a large transformer
nbk2000 May 28th, 2007, 07:07 PM

An associate of mine used to use a piece of trimmer line to drag on the meter wheel, thus greatly slowing it down, without
actually stopping it, so if the meter reader came around unexpectedly, they wouldn't see a non-spinning meter wheel, just a
slow one. :)
By drilling a very small hole behind the locking ring that holds the dome over the meter, you can insert the trimmer line and
leave it there, invisible to any normal meter reading, as the gap between locking ring and meter body is only a small fraction
of an inch, and the trimmer line is inside the meter body, behind the meter face.
grimreaper May 28th, 2007, 11:40 PM

I had a dream that I worked for the electricity company for a number of years, several of which were in the metering test and
calibration department.
During this dream , I learned that electricity meters work on ALTERNATING CURRENT therefore the coils inside them produce
ALTERNATING magnetic fields, it is these alternating fields that cause the wheel to turn , or not turn
There is indeed a powerful permanent magnet inside the meter and this is used as a kind of brake to control and calibrate the
meter, however the poles of this magnet have to be very close to the wheel to be effective.
This is why the magnetic field produced by a permanent magnet outside of the case has no effect on the speed of the wheel
the poles are just too far away to have any effect.
As for power factor correction , this is very common in industrial clients because they have to pay a kind of fine if their
installation shifts the current out of phase with the voltage (usually due to a large number of induction motors in the premises
), adding capacitor banks can improve the power factor to a level , where one no longer has to pay the fine
Domestic users do not have this problem , they can add all the inductive loads they want and the meter will indeed turn slower
than it would normally if they were resistive loads for example.
The problem is that ANY load , be it inductive , resistive , capacitive WILL consume energy , the meter will record this and you
will pay for energy consumed so there is not much to be gained there.
I have seen the bla ck b o x e s they do indeed slow the mete r down , they a lso leave tracks
(Small burn marks) as they have to carry all the current through the ends of the wires you ram up the incoming terminal
connections.
The meter is the only way that the company knows how much energy you are consuming , your bill is based on the reading
from the meter , bills are frequently estimated due to the inability to enter the premises and read the meter , or for company
policy , maybe read every 6 months estimate the other 5 months and correct the difference the next reading , this varies from
company to company.
Durin g my dream time I saw some very ing enious ways of slowing the wheel down , when one came across s omething new
it was reported to the manager , he would arrange for a training session and all meter readers or at least their supervisors
would be instructe d on the best way to detect the new trick.
The point here is that they have seen all the tricks and know exactly what to look for.
Should they suspect there has been some tampering , they 99% of the time simply change the meter , should the same
evidence of tampering occur again they usually prosecute .
Some tips
These meters are usually somewhat dusty due to their location , the reader expects to see the dust, if the device has
obviously been cleaned recently he will become suspicious.
If you have lived in the premises for a while, the company will create a kind of graph of your consumption , this will of course
rise and fall with the seasons , any dramatic changes in consumption will be noticed , have a reason on hand , for example
changed from electric heating to gas.
Any wheel slowing should be done in small steps so as not to produce a noticeable drop in consumption.
Any major slowing should be done the moment you occupy the residence , be sure to change the name on the account , that
way it is clear to them that a new resident has occupied the premises , different people have very different demands on the
system.
A crooked electrician is by far the best option , he should have the original style seals and be able to remove the cover from
the meter, slow it down by whatever means and replace the seals ,
Even this option is becoming less attractive as the newer seals even have a number on them this number can be traced to the
meter , and guess whose name is on the account for that meter.
Maybe saving a couple of bucks on the electric bill , and risking a visit from THEM , with some of the other things we all have
lying around , just isn t worth it.
Sorry to have rambled , this is one of the few subjects in this fascinating forum that I feel I have something to contribute.

Once upon a time (actually one year ago), a tech guy from our power company was given a bottle of expensive booze (by
guess who) after which he spilled this info:
1. Cut the neutral wire going into the meter in such a way it appears intact (broken from inside).
2. Create your own earth. Get a giant 3-phase-transformer and take the neutral out of it's "star point" (Delta-winding
transformer would be useless in this situation)... or just use your water line or gas line that is going underground.
3. Run your own house using this earth as a neutral.
4. And when feeding it back to energize the meter it should go through a regulator (dimmer switch).
5. Turn the regulator (dimmer switch) and watch the meter go slow... and slower... slower..... you can stop it cold.. from inside
your house... if you want.
Before meter-reader guy comes, remember to speed it up again!
They will never catch this... unless they measure the load from the pole. Just don't steal too much... they won't get suspicious.
--------
There is another story someone once told me....
Once upon a time, all the power-meters in Muree (a very cold place) had to be replaced by Swiss made meters. Why? because
they were not air tight and they became full of frost and the meters iced up and stopped spinning during winter. In summers
they would start up again.
That gives me ideas!
nbk2000 May 29th, 2007, 05:03 AM

Well, my associate was running his business and house from that meter, and was saving about $800-$1,200 per month, and
had been doing it for almost a decade. Do the math. :D

I have been doing it (only tilting the meter, nothing more) for 3 years now and save around half to 3/4ths of what I should be
paying every month.
One stole around thousand dollars of electricity every month .....:eek: And he used it to steal power for his business? Oh man,
if he was here, he would be in for a long long time and his property seized.
If I stole that much, they would send a truck over and measure the load when I'm not around. And then use that as evidence
of theft. And when they accuse someone of power theft, they calculate a huge bill from the last 10 years or more (even if
you've been stealing for a month or two) and take that out of your hide.... that is to make up for the loss they suffered at the
hands of all the other crooks who got away.
In fact I figured out a way to cause real grief to folk I don't like....
Many many people have their meters installed outside (unlike mine) where the meter-guy can read it anytime he likes. If I go
and drill a hole in the plastic casing....
Power Company in Karachi (run and owned by big mean looking Germans) is always looking to land on someone like a ton of
bricks.
Now we are getting new meters in Karachi which (I've only heard of these, not seen one yet) are made in China. They are filled
with inert gas. If you drill a hole in them, the gas leaks and the loss of pressure triggers something inside and the whole
street will know you're a crook just by looking at your meter.
wetpowder June 20th, 2007, 12:01 PM

Our power company installed new meters in our area. They don't have to read them anymore. It is done at the power
company. They are read through the powerline, each house has a code. I don't think there is a way to defeat this.

wetpowder, where there's a will!
Unless they filter the line before it then enters your house, you can read it too! Find one of the many power data transmission
systems, and hook that up. Or use a 'scope to look at the wavelength and frequencies on your mains line. Determine what
your meter's code is, and perhaps your whole streets, and then simply listen for the replies. I doubt it will be encrypted, so you
can alter it.
If it is encrypted, you might be able to jam it, then replay the previous reading or something. Or you might be SooL.
corona, that gas fill idea sounds like a great idea for keeping your IEDs safe from disarming.
Corona June 26th, 2007, 02:57 AM

corona, that gas fill idea sounds like a great idea for keeping your IEDs safe from disarming.
Yep. And it seems something a smart guy can easily do.
Meanwhile, here is a post from a Pak blog, catching folk stealing power:
http://karachi.metblogs.com/archives/2007/06/the_story_of_a_2.phtml#more
(click on pics to enlarge)
Imagination November 5th, 2007, 10:15 AM

Hi all...
I see two possible toughts i'd like to share

1.
As far as i know, the current that goes through an electromagnetic coil
produces alternating electromagnetic field, which then induces in that spinning plate, which then takes some
time(nanoseconds?) to convert itself fo current, again, which produces an electromagnetic field that acts against the previous
electromagnetic field...so the plate begins to spin....the more load, the higher current, the stronger electromagnetic fieldpairs,
the faster spins....the higher bill :) ...so all that needs to be done, is making a stronger alternating electromagnetic field, that
interferes with the original one, and eliminates/reverses the effect...
Of course it should have the same phase in time to make this happen properly, because if not, it could lead to vortices of
current in the plate, thus ruining the concept....
So a phase driven electromagnet should do the trick, you could just turn it upside down...and near the electromagnet that
moves the plate....
2.
Or i'm thinking of a bit more complicated concept, which would stop the meter if someone would use this device right after the
meter, before any load....
I could think of a device, which could take the load in very short impulses
lets say a few kHz...then there are two possible ways to get this work...shorten the impulses so that the plate doesn't even
start to move because it's persistence....or to tune the device, so that the coil that drives the plate and the plate begins to
resonate....and thus creating chaos, which could fasten or slow down the meter, some testing?....then simply make direct
current of the pulse-alternating current with some diodes, then charge a large acid battery(of more) and use a UPS for
reconverting the direct current into useable 50Hz alternating one....it would'nt be sinus anymore, but who cares...the resulting
shape of that current has a greater effectivity than sinus...
What do you think?
timo March 20th, 2008, 11:51 PM

The major factors in "borrowing" power from the utilities are this...
1. Gradual reduction in consumption. Major spikes are an instant red flag.
2. Do not tamper with the meter itself. Unless you want a new roommate named Bubba. This is proof against you.
3. If you have an old style meter, you can flip it over and make it run backwards. You need to document your usage precisely
and you must know exactly when they read the meter. Track them for months to be sure of when they come out. If they
suspect this, they will put what is called a one shot seal. It looks like a lock but is aluminum and very difficult to come up with
extras. This method works but you have to document and be very anal or you will get caught.
Here's my preference: Splice into the supply side. I did this in my new construction. Where the weatherhead pierces the eave,
I put a tee in the PVC and this feeds my heat pump. I do not have to worry about varying my consumption. You could go to a
grow room as well. Do not do both though.
Here's how to do it:
1. Get a permit to replace existing meter base. Buy one that has a disconnect in it. (This is the excuse for replacing meter
base). Call the power company to disconnect power. Do your splice in eave and replace meter base. Have it inspected and call
power company to reconnect feeders
billo March 22nd, 2008, 07:15 AM

The best way to take some of the load off is by taking needles and shoving them through the wire coming to meter in both
LIVE and Earth cable. Then use the electricity at will but be careful that Master meter is not installed up the line. I have done
this in all the RENTED premises, over a period of last 15 years.
The only problem seems to be the concealing the pins and the wires. In the current house, I complained about the meter in
writing, the electricity inspector came to find that the meter out casing was Broken with absolutey NO tempering showing. They
had to take it off and for three days the let me have teh electricity use for free without any cost. The meter was taken to the
meter testing laboratory, I was also called the Inspection master put the meter on testing and recorded the readings and did a
lot of stuff, even cleaned the insides with a special CHEMICAL to see if there has been some tempering done. Nothing was
found, because I didnt intend to do anything except hit it with a small hammerto crack the meter hull.
The inspection report came flawless. as sweet as honey. I was allocated a new meter on company costs. Everyone must be
thinking WHY did I break the meter???
The real fun started when the company came and wanted to install it again, i asked them that why dont they put new cable
from the pole, they said OK. I also asked them to put concealing duct for it. They also did that at MY cost. after they installed
and checked the meter a verfication was done in a week.
I drilled with a hand drill eight pin holes exactly behind the duct and got thin pins to come through and poke into live wire; all
eight for just one LIVE wire. I took earth from the basement where there was an old unused pipe going into the ground; just
hooked one line into it and everything just jump started. my load is about 7 kw which is about three A/C (climasateurs/ Air
Conditioners) working 24 hours a day. I also got permission to generate power with 10 kw generator Diesel that i constructed
with a engine from an old truck and other parts from a retail store selling genarator replacement parts.
The good thing is with generator available, the company cannot say that OVER LOAD is there without sanction.
Eight pins because ONE pin would burn out; and with eight and the load at 7 kw it worked out fine.
The company is not allowed to come into the home without a Electric Magistrate and almost a regiment of Electric inspectors to
catch the stealing of electricity.
I have put a VERY VERY thick cable on this load and also use it to dry my clothes after washing. Though it costed me ten times
what it would have normally to use a thin wire.
Only once the electric inspector came looked at the cable and asked why is it there. The reply was from my wife laying clothes
on it and smiling at his stupid question.
In the end run all is ok. when the temperature soars to 45 C, the house feels like a heaven inside without any fear of fortune
going into the pocket of company. Just a bit of planning and Voila!@.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > $20 Radar Guns at Wal-Mart
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View Full Version : $20 Radar Guns at Wal-Mart

I was at Wal-Mart the other day and saw a Hotw heels Radar Gun toy on sale for $20.
Naturally, I thought it was some cheap toy that would only work on their little cars, but I googled it when I got back home.
Shocked the shit out of me when I found out that the things are REAL K-band radar guns that w ork! :eek:
Holy shit!
Works up to 100MPH, and only $20!
BUY!
http://ww w.w almart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id= 4661205
ShadowMyGeekSpace December 3rd, 2006, 05:31 PM

Great find nbk! How's the range?

Under 40 feet, depending on size/speed/RCS.
A big thread about them, and modifications too:
http://ww w.austech.info/showthread.php?t=135840&page=1
Link to the FCC certification specs and tests required to get the toy approved for sale (PDF's):
https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?
mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout% 20= 500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=157093&fcc_i% 20d='PIYJ2358-06A1T
All the technical specs needed. :)
At $20, it seems ready-made for making proximity fuzes for airbursting shells over the ground, and for anti-helicopter devices.
augoldminer December 4th, 2006, 12:14 AM

Any one have military fighter jets flying in there area.
If you have a radar gun aim it at the jet.
If the missile warning system is turned on this will freak out the pilot.
As it w ill show the same as a missile lock on.
Be warned that you may find out what a fighter jet looks like at close up and at high speed. As one cop found out in my area. [NWC. China Lake Calif.]

I saw that yesterday in the Wal-mart advertisement. I asked somebody if that w as a crappy toy or a real radar gun. I would never have thought for only $20 that the thing
would actually work. Any toy that encourages children to play in traffic has got to be a good idea...
I might stick one in my car just to piss off people with radar detectors :)

It's an extremely low pow ered radar unit, something like .2mW, and can barely trigger a radar detector from inside the car.
Which means the jet jockeys aren't going to even know you're 'painting' them.
And if you DID somehow manage to do so, you might find out w hat a HARM missile looks like up close and personal. ;)
sparkchaser December 4th, 2006, 04:12 AM

Helicopters in Iraq also have a laser detector. From first hand experience I can tell you that a laser pistol sight will freak a helo pilot, if that's your aim. (no pun intended)
Cool thing about helicopters is; they don't come after you, they just start dodging and dancing!
Cobalt.45 December 4th, 2006, 04:40 PM

Cool thing about helicopters is; they don't come after you, they just start dodging and dancing!
And, if you piss off an Apache jockey w/ TADS/PNVS, you'll get to find out how hot Hellfire really is!:eek:

I was checking these out at wal mart today. It has both a small scale mode for clocking your matchbox cars, and a life size mode for clocking big objects. There is also a
kilometers per hour and miles per hour selector sw itch. They priced these at exactly $20.00, no $19.99 or the usual wal mart $19.88 tactic.
This sounded a bit fishy to me. The instructions say matchbox cars are 1/64 scale, so however fast you clock your car multiply by 64. They had an example that had the car
going at over 1000 miles per hour. Is that math correct? Is 1 mph on a 1/64 scale actually 64 mph in real life? The last thing I w ant to do w hen playing with toys is apply higher
mathematics :)
Unless you are currently in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Palestine, I would not expect any return fire from a helicopter or fighter jet. If you are in any of the aforementioned countries I
doubt you have either the money for or access to toys of any kind. Ironically you can buy AK-47s, but no toys.
krackerjack9 December 5th, 2006, 04:19 AM

Well I am over here in Iraq and I cant be 100% but if you did as one suggested I be pretty sure a little package will be sent right back in the location it came from. On that
note, I doubt these would have enough juice to set off the sensor but I could wrong.
LSA, Anaconda Iraq
chemofun December 5th, 2006, 11:29 AM

I haven't had the chance to look at it yet. Does it look like it can be hacked or souped up easily?

While this may not emit enough directed RF to trigger an attack w arning sensor aboard a military aircraft, the case w ith civilian aircraft may be different (WRT communications,
FAA safety concerns, etc.) since the beam is pulsed and so may screw up X-band comm. gear. Even if it is done in jest, the police may overreact (go figure?) and arrest or fine
you anyw ay. This guy learned the hard w ay . . .
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:YzvhWe6b1xkJ:w ww.policeone.com/suspect-pursuit/articles/508483/
+laser+pointer+police+helicopter+ arrest&hl= en&gl= us&ct=clnk&cd=4
The risks of being punished for painting a newscopter with RF are extremely low , but then again, these are strange times.
Souped up? Likely not.
But hackable? Eminently. :)
c.Tech December 5th, 2006, 09:34 PM

Apparently when approaching speed cameras (the ones w ith an asshole holding them, not fixed) another speed camera can jumble them. So there would be less of a chance of
getting caught if you ran your radar w hilst driving.

Brilliant! If it is really low power, then it is going to be easier to make into an LPI radar system! LPI stands for "Low probability of Intercept".
Get a few of these, and tw eak them to different frequencies, and then you can use them in a pseudo random sequence of short bursts to paint a target and not be noticed.
Same sort of thing as a secure radio can do.
Start w ith a low power, too, and increase it until you get a return you can measure, then stop increasing it. Then break contact, and then do it again, and so on. This decreases
the odds they will detect it as anything more than noise.
By using the system on short duty cycles, and in short bursts as well, you will find that the radar part (which is probably an IC of some form) can be used at far beyond it's
rated power, much like an LED can be boosted to a far higher power in exchange for greater losses and shorter life.
c.Tech, yes, you can jam a radar gun. I suggest trying it on a set of automatic doors first, though, since the power of a cops radar gun is far higher than this toy is going to be.
Also, cops outside the US generally don't use X-band for anything, as X band is the original old stuff, with new stuff going instead for Ku and Ka, as well as IR laser and video
traps. So you would have an issue jamming it at the wrong frequencies. Further, the X band is actually a really w ide frequency range!
The best thing to do would be to get a gun that w as nearby in frequency, so it set up beat frequencies. These w ould do a lot to scramble the signal, rather than jamming it
directly. You would probably w ant a directional aerial someplace, too, to shove all the power in the direction you want, for the usual cost of greater care needed when aiming.

I wonder if the super-cheap RADAR TX used in the Hotwheels toy would have any jamming effect against the through-w all scanners being developed, such as this one:
http://ww w.cambridgeconsultants.com/prism200
JakeGallows December 15th, 2006, 11:51 AM

I wonder if the super-cheap RADAR TX used in the Hotwheels toy would have any jamming effect against the through-w all scanners being developed
Wouldn't surprise me... Though from the videos it looks like just standing still might defeat it as well. :rolleyes:

Best defeat for that scanner w ould be to line your house with aluminium siding, or, for the cheaper option, line the walls with foil before you paper it. Anything conductive will
mess it right up. A standard cheap radar detector should also pick it up, but I wouldn't rely on that as the pow er might be too low.
I was going to post that link, but NBK has, as almost alw ays, beaten me to it. :)

The device operates at 1.72.2 GHz, w hich falls w ithin the follow ing frequencies:
L-band 1-2 GHz

S-band 2-4 GHz.
None of w hich are picked up by police radar detectors. :(
I also noticed how everyone in the demo video w as swaying a little, which obviously means that some movement is required for detection. :)
Now, if a person was to take long foil streamers and make throw ies out of them to attached to the ceiling, that'd effectively act as chaff against their radar, making it nearly
impossible to seperate which echo is a person standing still, and w hich is a foil streamer.
Obviously, gross movement like w alking around would stand out, but that's only part of the picture.
While Googling for this info, I accidently typed in RADSAR, which turns out to be another form of RADAR, this be for millimetric imaging using synthetic aperature RADAR.
voivod December 24th, 2006, 11:49 PM

I just saw a "speed gun" published in an electronics magazine the other day, it's due to come out as a kit at Jaycar but w ay more expensive than $20. Uses a homemade
cantenna.
Also this PDF show s a similar one as w ell http://w ww.ramseyelectronics.com/dow nloads/manuals/SG7.pdf
The Wallmart toys are supposed to be really inaccurate but if you know what you're doing I've heard you can calibrate them. At $20 you can't complain.

Here w e go... seems the model people like big radar guns...
http://ww w.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t= 611601
This guy modified a Hot Wheels radar gun to get 20x the range, but that was still not good enough. Hopefully he will upload the schematics soon; just pics for now . The thread
also includes some info on making radar reflectors for RC planes.
Here is a link from that thread to a website with DIY radar gun plans:
http://ww w.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_107875/article.html
Here is a radar gun kit from the ramsey w ebsite voivod just posted:
http://ww w.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key= SG7
Here is the best of the line a mere mortal could get... I w onder what those patents they speak of are?
http://ww w.stalkerradar.com/sports_pro.shtml

One of the simplest w ays to screw up an MTI (Moving Target Indicating) radar is to use an ordinary ceiling fan with foil-covered blades running on low speed. This same method
is used as a "mode-scrambler" in microwave ovens to distribute the RF energy within the cavity. How ever in a room, this w ould serve to create randomly varying path lengths,
thus generating lots of Doppler clutter which w ould really screw up an RF imager, even if it is not in the center of the beam (gosh, I like it when diffraction actually helps us . . .)
The beauty of this method is that by placing the foil on the top of the blades, noone know s it's there . . .
I know this method lacks the robustness of converting your house into a TEMPEST enclosure, but it's inexpensive and besides, ceiling fans w ill increase the resale value of any
bunker.
voivod December 26th, 2006, 05:33 AM

Heh wasn't the foil on the fan busted by Mythbusters? On other news how ever Rocky Mountain Radars tried to obtain FCC license for a passive radar scrambler and were denied
it as the srcambler "interfered with a properly licensed" device even though the scrambler was a passive device (ie energised by the police radar gun). Funny to read http://
w w w.fcc.gov/ogc/documents/opinions/1998/rockymtn.html shows how big money talks common sense walks.
Oh this might be of interest, in Megalomania's link above to the Silicon Chip article you'll find you have to pay to read the full article, how ever if you use the link http://
us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1078/107875_?mg.jpg and substitute ? for the numbers 1 through 14 you get acess to all the article pictures including the
schematics (not terribly high res but readable enough). Enjoy
Big Mac December 29th, 2006, 03:33 PM
Still quite primitive. For some reason it reminded me of the movie "Escape from New York". Also, you could easily defeat the motion sensor with a very very simple thing
(depending on how much mass is required for it to pick up an object). Either one of those automated vacuums or an even cheaper model....those little toy ferrets on that rolling
ball. The radar would go crazy if the mass requirement is not too high. Wouldn't know I didn't read too much but it seems still in its infancy.
Jacks Complete January 1st, 2007, 09:53 PM

It is in it's development stage, but it w ill improve. I'd go for defence in depth. TEMPEST shield (since it won't be 100%) and moving metallic targets (w hich will vary by location,
speed and more) both sound good as they are complimentary.
A hamster wheel is going to do sod all. You want metals, and you want retro-reflectors. These reflect EM well, and a combo of both would be best.
I wonder how a high strength magnet embedded in the w all w ould affect it?

It good to have a prepared place if you know ahead of time that this is a possible threat against you.
But, often times, you have to fight your battles w here the enemy and circumstances dictate, meaning you need to be prepare to improvise.
Also, you can use tactics instead of hardw are, as the piggies operate on patterns (RTPB), which means you can use their assumptions against them. :)
Police assume that during a hostage situation, that the hostages will be seated, and the criminal will be the one w alking around.
Thus, flip it around, and make one of the hostages w alk around, while you are seated amoungst the hostages (who are all restrained) w ho will be human shields.
The one walking around has a fake gun superglued into his hand, a ski-mask over his face, and a ball gag in his mouth so he can't yell to the cops that he's not a criminal. :D
Meanw hile, a super-thin spectra fiber line is leashed around him so he can't take off running. :p
All the hostages can be hooded with opaque hoods, while the one you are wearing (to make you look like a hostage too) is actually transparent enough for you to gun down
the piggies from behind, after they've taken out the 'criminal' who refused to put down his w eapon. ;)

Genius. I've said it before, and it's true. You're a Very Evil genius. :-)
Further, if you know that you and the hostages are going to be below head height, you can rig other things to happen. Say about 1 foot over your seated head height? Sharp
and dangerously fast things.
Totally OT, I thought of a good idea for a quick w ay to stop a SWAT team. Run a gas pipe along the floor, w ith the vent attached to the door. They enter, gas comes on. They
reach the door at the other end, gas lights. They run or burn or explode. One moving part, no explosive, no chance. If they were wearing gas masks, they would stand no
chance of smelling it. And you leave under the cover of an inferno.
Or use a smothering gas like CO or CO2. They would be dead even if they realised before passing out with CO poisoning. They would drop dead after a few minutes at most,
and some would start to fall in a few seconds. Your choice.
nbk2000 January 7th, 2007, 01:11 AM

I was inspired to superglue the gun in hand by the final scene in the movie F/X. :)
lemons April 4th, 2007, 03:42 PM

Best defeat for that scanner w ould be to line your house with aluminium siding, or, for the cheaper option, line the walls with foil before you paper it.
If lining the walls with foil worked, I'd imagine the scanner doesn't work well to begin with, since most walls will have insulation with foil backing.

Hostage situation is fairly easy. Combination Snow crash and Swordfish/Pandora Tomorrow . The Swordfish aspect is that, once armed, the explosive collar is triggered by the end
of a radio transmission. Hostage tries to run, boom. Snowcrash has a guy who's got a literal deadman's switch. Electrode to chest, if your heart stops, that turns off the radio
transmission. Just make sure the people w ho would like the hostages back intact know about the system, it doesn't do you any good to have a sniper hit you, only to have the
hostages all explode.
Really, the only thing hostages are good for is buying time. They will not get you out safely, they will not secure the release of other people. If you are going to take hostages,
you need to have a secure exit already. You need to have a task that both must be completed, and takes a long time to complete as well, otherwise it's useless. I suppose
breaking a security system would count, as well as using your time to rig up an ambush.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > spectral coil
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View Full Version : spectral coil
DONMAN D e c e m ber 4th, 2006, 02:31 AM

D o e s a n y o n e k n o w h ow I could m ake a spectral coil? For those who dont know ..... its an electro m agnet that can attract
c o p p e r a n d a l u m inum along with other odd metals that norm al electrom a g n e t s d o n t .
megalomania D e c e m ber 4th, 2006, 12:42 PM

W ould that b e an eddy current electromagnet? Those ju st spin a powerful perm a n e n t m a g net very fast in front of a conductor,
l i k e a l u m inum , and e n a b l e m e t a l s t o b e s e p a r a t e d .

That m ight b e it, I was looking over some technical boo ks, and there was a reference to b uilding o n e o f t h o s e . I l o o k e d e v e r y
where to find a schem atic but couldn't find it.

Close, but incorrect. It is a fairly high frequency AC m agnetic field, and it repels conductors. The better the conductor the
harder it is repelled.
A 50Hz coil will do it. Get a transform er designed to couple the flux (a coil around a lam i n a t e d b l o c k ) , a n d p u t a c o n t i n u o u s
copper ring over the top half of it. Now turn the power on, and th ey copper ring will go flyin g. Alum inium will less far, and so on.
How far it goes depends on both the m agnetic perm ability and conductivity of the m aterial, as well as the m ass, etc.
Used industrially for sorting alum inium cans fro m the "everything else" left when the steel has bee n pulled out by DC m a g n e t s
at the scrap yard.
DONMAN D e c e m ber 10th, 2006, 05:28 PM

I think I will just buy the tech book, if its good I will scan a page or 2 for you guys.

W ould this work on m etals like gold, silver, and platinum ?

It just m ight, I dont know m uch about it, but once I get the book I will tell you all of its wonders.
oxbeast D e c e m ber 11th, 2006, 08:42 AM

W hat you are looking for is sometim es called a "Master Magnet".
I u p l o a d e d a n old PDF file showing how to build one of these.
'http://rapidshare.com/files/7016416/m a s t e r m a g . p d f . h t m l '
The original page is still available at:

'http://rexresearch.com/m rm a g n e t / m rm a g n e t . h t m '
Be careful building so mething like this, the current involved is pretty high and you are working with m ains e lectricity.
Fallout85 D e c e m ber 11th, 2006, 12:29 PM

I believe this is what is being refered to: http://www.fastmhz.com/viewtopic.php?t=58
or here: http://powerlabs.org/capexperim e n t s . h t m
I t d o e s n ' t u s e A C b u t a h i g h a m p ( a n d e x t r e m ely short) pulse of DC current supp lied from a capacitor bank. It is sim ilar to the
classic coilgun concep t except that of course it repels the projectile rather than attracts. Th ey can reach incredible ve locity and
efficiencies. Som e even having the potential of causing bodily harm: http://www.amazing1.com /m ass-launcher.htm . :)

D a m n it, I just waisted 11 bucks on a book order.
Just think ho w easy it will be to collect aluminum powder with this thing. :D
Cobalt.45 D e c e m ber 15th, 2006, 05:11 PM

W hat is bizarre is how the egg was "cooked" by the pulse. Makes a m icrowave look slow by com p a r i s o n .
I d o n ' t s e e h ow you'd collect Al powder with a device like it, though.
How did you plan on doing it, anyway?

If you look the easy aluminum powder eggs .... I was going to apply the magnet to the side of a glass full of suspended Al
powder in oil. If the m agnet is powerfu l enough the Al p owder co llect where the magnet is closest.
Fallout85 D e c e m ber 15th, 2006, 09:48 PM

To Cobalt: Ha well it wasnt cooked by the pulse. They were already hardboiled; the ring shooting a way just shelled them. You
are however very correct; it probably wouldn't be useful for collecting aluminum...but it would be fun :). I guess I wa s just
look ing for an excuse to bring up EM weaponry.

Even if I cant collect alum inum with it, there are so man y m ore uses for it! I will start to make one once I get my 11$
book.:rolleyes:
Deft D e c e m ber 29th, 2006, 12:03 AM

If it can seperate precious me tals it would have been looked at by heavy industry so they don't have to use chem ical m e t h o d s
for separation of gold, they could just use electrical power.
But it might not be worth it on at least a large scale, so that's a place to start looking anyways.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Dehydrating with Microwaves?
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W ould it work to dehydrate salts by m icrowaving them . I was just thinking that the microwaves only effect water m olecules, a n d
I was just wondering if the H2O in hydrous salts are still effected by the microwaves?
Cindor D e c e m ber 10th, 2006, 04:59 AM

I think you p robably couldn't do that with Am monium Nitrate of other salt like this with low B/D P, but proba bly you could do
that with Barium Sulfate... but why don 't you try this and tell us what happens ?
ShadowMyGeekSpace D e c e m ber 10th, 2006, 06:32 AM

The problem is the water molecules (which can superheat, reaching temp eratures well above their boiling point) can excite the
m olecules next to them/react with them . Also, 2.45ghz R F isn't specifically absorbed by water, you're going to see d ielectric
heating in alot of materials. U sing a m icrowave m ay be appropriate for som e chem icals, b ut if the chem ical is destroyed at
100c(figure 140c or 150c actually, since the water can superheat, and localized heating being a bitch), or gets excited by
2 . 4 5 g h z m icrowaves, it's m ost likely not going to work well.

I've used a microwave to dehydrate epsom salt (Mg sulphate) to use it a s a dryin g agent, and it worked we ll.

I tried it with some Na2CO3 heptahydrate, It worked extrem ely well. I took about 10g and put that in there for about 35 sec
and when it came out the Na2C O3 was brilliantly white.
megalomania D e c e m ber 11th, 2006, 06:01 PM

If you are worried about potential overheating as far as I know every microwave com es with power adjustm ents (defrost
settings) to let you control the output. Mine can be adju sted from 10% to 100% power on the touch pad quite easily. 30
seconds at 100% will liquefy m y frozen cool whip, but a minute on 30% thaws in real nice.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Glock polymer and a matching resin
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red wire December 29th, 2006, 02:44 PM

This is my first post. Please be gentle.
I am gearing up to do grip reductions on Glock pistols. The procedure involves filling the void in the backstrap with epoxy, reshaping, texturizing and top coating.
I want to eliminate the coating as it tends to wear off. Therefore, I need a material to do the fill that is black in color when cured and can be stippled with a heating tool such
as a woodburning iron.
The only black resin I have found so far is PC3. I have not ordered it yet. I am not sure if it would lend itself to this procedure.
Any advice you could offer would be greatly appreciated.
TreverSlyFox December 30th, 2006, 08:00 PM

Why is it that people forget the obvious as a first step? The people that make the product know the most about it, so contact the manufacturer. Tell them what you want to do
with it and I'm sure their Tech Dept will be able to help you.
red wire December 30th, 2006, 09:11 PM

Actually this procedure will void their warranty. It violates Glock's "perfection". They will not support or advise on these activities.
Chopper December 31st, 2006, 06:45 PM

Sure it'd void the warranty, but if you ask the manufacturers of _PC3_ about your indended process for the resin, as I believe Trev was suggesting, you'd get a better answer
than (I'll bet) anyone here can provide.
It's not like you'd ask the manufacturer of your car if a certain aftermarket paint is compatible with a particular clear-coat. You'd ask the paint guys, no?

If you can find out the exact resin used, then asking the manufacturer of that resin would be the thing to do.
Arisaka January 1st, 2007, 05:08 PM

I am gearing up to do grip reductions on Glock pistols...Any advice you could offer would be greatly appreciated.
Why not use the aluminum aftermarket frames that are available?
InfernoMDM January 2nd, 2007, 07:29 AM

If you go to glocktalk.com you can get your info from that sight. Many people have reformed the grip with some great results.
Also if you plan to cut down the grip note the magazine release spring inside. It goes down into the grip a ways and if you cut to much off you could damage the magazine
release.
red wire January 4th, 2007, 01:18 PM

Why not use the aluminum aftermarket frames that are available?
Good question. The aftermarket frames are like purchasing a new firearm, so why not use what you have.
However, a guy could use one of those frames and a Caspian slide and after market everything else. HMMM.......
Also, I intended this to be posted in the chemestry section. I need advise on what kind of resin could be melted (stippled with a soldering iron) like the Glock polymer material.
I will give the manufacturer of PC3 a call.

Any comments on PC3 from the manufacturer? I also asked Glocktalk for you.

I got a link for you. It doesn't specifically state that the compound is black, but I like the idea of coating the grip. However you can melt this material, create a beaver tail, or
generally fill in holes.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/General/DisplayPDF.aspx?f=glock.pdf
Update: I read the product info and you can make it black or brown.
Acraglas in itself is amber-clear. To make it match your stock - black or brown - we furnish two special, acrylic dyes with each Kit. With them you can color the Acraglas mix to
blend properly with the color of your individual stock - wood or synthetic.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Ballistics Gelatin
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InfernoMDM January 15th, 2007, 03:54 AM

I poked around and poked around the forum and can't find anything about how to make Ballistics Gelatin. I was kind of amazed, because all the projectile weapons created
here, I figured you guys would want to test it in a good semi scientific medium. Although I use to indulge in the wet newspaper trick I moved up to homemade Ballistics Gel for
a few interesting rounds I picked up. I thought some of you might like the info.
The recipe I used.

http://www.customcartridge.com/pdfs/BallisticGel.pdf
Calibration and info for the scientist.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number1/article412.htm
Before I post someone elses info I wanted to pass on a few pointers.
1. Make sure your weapon is centered with the gel. My friend set it up just askew and the round passed out the side. It was a big waste.
2. Make sure your container doesn't flex to much, or you will mess up the gel during transport.
3. Stir by hand with friends. If you use a drill your gel may be impossible to see into further then a inch or so.
3. Ballistic Gelatin Recipe

by Ed Harris @1:109/120.3006 via 1:2410/271 FIDOnet
The target material is prepared from gelatin, USP. The government laboratories purchase this as Pharmagel A, Type 250 from the Kind & Knox Co., Park 80 West, Plaza 2,
Saddle Brook, NJ 07662. The last time I bought any was in 1984, and at that time the price was $2.40/lb., or about $600 for a 55 gal. drum, shipped F.O.B. from Sioux City,
IA.
The powder is mixed 10 percent by weight in warm, but not boiling water until dissolved, and then poured into moulds and chilled in a large refrigerator. The standard block
size is 15x15x30cm for handgun bullets and 20x20x50cm for rifle bullets, but improvised moulds such as from cal. .50 M2A1 ammunition cans work well.
You will also need Thymol or cinnamon oil as a clarifier, which is added in the proportion of 1 drop per liter. You will also need heavy duty electric stirrers or an industrial mixer,
moulds, a release agent, such as Pam cooking spray for releasing the castings, LD plastic film or Saran wrap for wrapping the blocks, a freezer for storage if you will not use the
blocks within a week, and foam coolers to transport them to the range, if you do not have a walk-in cooler near your lab.
To do this right, establish the tare weight of a 5 gallon stainless steel container in which you will heat the water and mix the gelatin. Ideally this should have a spigot on the
bottom to aid decanting the dissolved gelatin into the moulds. Add 12 liters of water to the container and bring the temperature to 65 degs. C and adjust the weight by adding
or deleting water to obtain 12,000 grams. Place two electric stirrers into the hot water, one near the top and the other near the bottom of the container. Add three grams of
Thymol or 12 drops of cinnamon oil and stir until dissolved in the hot water. Add 1500 grams of Pharmagel A to the hot water, breaking up any lumps with a stainless steel rod
or paddle, to supplement the stirrers, as necessary.
After the gelatin is dissolved, in 10-15 minutes, turn off the stirrers and remove them from the solution. Allow the bubbles and foam to rise to the surface for 20 minutes. If the
container used does not have a spigot at the bottom, it is necessary to skim the foam off the surface before transferring the solution to the moulds. Allow the warm gelatin to
stand at room temperature for at least one hour after transferring, so additional foam which rises to the top may be removed.
Place the gelatin in a refrigerator overnight at 0-5 degs. C. The gelatin may then be removed from the moulds by placing the container in hot water. After 15-20 seconds use a
spatula to loosen the gelatin from the sides of the container. After two minutes remove the mould from the hot water and invert it over a piece of plastic film spread on a flat
surface.
Once the gelatin is removed from the mould it should be allowed to remain at room temperature for one hour, then tightly sealed in plastic film and the wrapped block inserted
into a plastic bag, which is again sealed to prevent evaporation, which drastically changes the consistency of the gelatin. Once tightly wrapped, the blocks can be stored up to
six months in a freezer, or up to one week in a refrigerator. Unused blocks should be frozen immediately to retard mold growth. Before firing the blocks must be allowed to
thaw and stabilized overnight at a temperature of 5-10 degs. C, because proper consistency is a function of the tempoerature.
Evaluation of the blocks is best accomplished by flash X-ray photography which permits measurement of transient cavity volume as a function of projectile striking velocity,
time, distance penetrated and projectile exit velocity energy deposit). If high speed photographic equipment is not available, it is useful to use a small caliber calibration test
shot, such as a steel .177 air rifle shot from a Daisy pump-up air rifle known to give consistent performance, which can be placed as a consistency calibration check in a corner
of the block out of the way. The permanent cavity can then be made to stand out well for still photography by injecting a colored water solution of ten drops food dye to a liter
of water, using as veterinary syringe or laboratory wash bottle to reach all corners of the permanent cavity. To provide proper scale for the photograph, a piece of graph paper
can be photocopied onto overhead transparency film, and used as a template to be positioned over the shot. The block should then be placed on a light table or photographed
using diffused, backlit strobe flash. Detailed ammunition test methodology is available in various open-source medical and technical references.
In Home Mix We Trust, Regards, Ed
stupid939 January 15th, 2007, 12:48 PM

I was actually looking into this the other day. I think it was cause of Mythbusters or something, but I found a lot of the same information. I kind of ignored the Knox Gelatin
idea because it seemed to me that it would be too weak and tear easily.
How well did it hold together? What color is it (clear-white)? I didn't find any of these answers and so I never made it. Do you mind answering them since you already made it?

We have made 4 sets. IT comes out in this yellow color, one of the links suggests painting something white when you are going to take photos. You place the white
background behind it and take the shot. I also would suggest foam core board as its white and very light.
Yes it is fragile so it takes two people to work it, but its not as fragile as say jello. You have to keep it damned cold though, it makes it easier, and safer to move.
It will get almost white if you stir with a anything powered. We used pieces of wood siding(flat wide is best) the second time and it came out so much better. Just have 2-3
friends and do the stirring for 20-25 minutes. The second batch was clear and a lot firmer.
stupid939 January 16th, 2007, 01:33 PM

Since there's not much else going on on this forum, I'll ask some more questions.
What kind of projectiles did you fire at it: bullets, crossbow bolts, homemade weapons?
Compared to the human body, is it about the same density, stiffness, flexibility?
I can't think of any more right now, but that should be a good start.

Bullets only. I had picked up some wild 357 SIG rounds that I believe went 2200 FPS. They promised that they would get 9" depth, and explode which technically they did,
however most of the particles didn't go that far. I know people have used as ballistics gel for several different projectile tests, to include homemade items.
Ballistics gel is "about" the same consistency as human muscle. Remember humans have internal organs, bones etc. The scientists that work with this stuff have set depths to
represent impact with things such as leather or denim, bone etc. I think the exact details are either in the link I posted, or I will get them for you if I can find them.
However we do know that 12-14 inches is the average depth a hollow point round from a pistol penetrates. From there we can guesstimate some things. I will try to get better
info. Also I think the minimum penetration depth required is 7-8 inches assuming no clothes and bones get in the way.
Apparently my search fu is weak as there is a archived thing about ballistic gel. However the link is dead so I don't feel to bad.
nbk2000 January 16th, 2007, 09:50 PM

Gelatin has it's problems, such as storage and preparation being a hassle.
A new ballistic simulant "transparent gel candle" (experimental study).
General Surgery Department, Gulhane Military Medical Academy, Ankara-Turkey. mdakak@gata.edu.tr
BACKGROUND: Inanimate tissue stimulants have been used to show the bullet effects in ballistic studies. Gelatin has been being used as a ballistic stimulant for the last 20
years. It was considered that transparent gel candle (kraton in white paraffin oil) might be used as a soft tissue stimulant that can be an alternative for gelatin. METHODS: For
calibration of transplant gel candle, firstly it was shot at the 10% ordinance gelatin at 4 o C, and several concentrations of the transparent gel candle at 4 o C, by later on, by
using a competition air gun. It was seen that 15% kraton in 85% white paraffin oil is the most suitable concentration. This kind of transparent gel candle blocks tested by using
9 mm parabellum and 7.62 mm x 51 (NATO 7.62) infantry rifle bullets and high-speed camera. RESULTS: Because of its transparency and elasticity, the penetration,
permanent and temporary cavities of bullets were observed clearly in transparent gel candle. CONCLUSIONS: As a result, transparent gel candle is a good soft tissue stimulant
that it can be used in wound ballistic studies.
Perma-Gel simulant (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0037512216133a&type=product&cmCat=search&returnPage=search-

results1.jsp&QueryText=gelatin&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=gelatin&noImage=0) seems a likely to be the above material.
Skin is also an important part of the penetration model, since you don't see many people running around without their skin on. ;)
The target values of the mechanical properties of the skin simulant were the following: threshold velocity v[th] = 94 4 m/s, tensile strength 18 2 N/ mm[2] and
elongation at break 65 5%. A selection of synthetic and natural materials was evaluated as skin simulants by analysing their mechanical and ballistic properties. The results
were compared to literature values obtained with human cadavers. The tests showed that the best skin simulant of the ones evaluated was semi-finished chrome tanned
upholstery crust cowhide of 0.9-1.1 mm nominal thickness. Its threshold velocity was 90.7 m/s, tensile strength 20.89 4.11 MPa and elongation at break 61 9%. These
values are the same as the average values of human skin. Of the synthetic materials evaluated, 1 mm thick natural rubber can be used on impact side as a threshold velocity
filter with some reservations although its theoretical threshold velocity is only 82.9 m/s.
cracker January 17th, 2007, 10:29 PM

Kraton 1650 & 1652 Polymers are recommended for the White Pariffin Oil suggested.
Due to the high density of the 1650, machinery is needed for proper mixing, for this reason Kraton 1652 is used for "homemade" gels.
One of the distributers for Krayton Polymers is Chemcentral out of Seattle WA.

Perma-Gel simulant (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0037512216133a&type=product&cmCat=search&returnPage=search-
results1.jsp&QueryText=gelatin&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=gelatin&noImage=0) seems a likely to be the above material.
Interesting stuff. I think people don't use it because of its inability to be calibrated after the first shot, and its expense compared to the stuff they make. I'll see if anyone can
check on up on this.
cracker March 25th, 2007, 01:00 PM

Throughly mixing Kraton Polymer 1652 with White Paraffin Oil will "cure" the Oil to a "rubbery state". Achieving the desired Ballistics Gel with the proper Mold.
nbk2000 March 25th, 2007, 07:31 PM

The idea behind Ballistic Gelatin, was to have a material that best simulated human tissue.
While anything can be shot, that doesn't make it suitable to the task, even if it is a gel.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Dummy body parts
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Shalashaska February 12th, 2007, 12:40 AM

I'm planning on conducting some experiments using models of hands and heads to demonstrate the power of some different explosives on body parts. Problem is I'm not very
creative with this type of thing and the only substance I can think of is some kind of plaster. Does anyone know of anything more accurate to the strength of a human hand or
head?
My aim is to put this online to show inexperienced people that plan to make this stuff what it can do to their hands and body.
Note: I (duh!) was also planning on putting a karo syrup/red food coloring mix in a balloon inside of the mold, for added effect :D
festergrump February 12th, 2007, 01:12 AM

Truthfully, in the forensic world they sometimes use pig carcasses to simulate the human body. They do this when studying decomposition speeds relative to temperature and
humidity, ect., as well as ballistic wounds, IIRC.
Pig carcasses could easily be replaced by just about any other you have on hand or could "acquire" fresh enough, though. I think everyone would easily get the point...
Nobody need know how you came upon such a test carcass, but if you feel the need for a disclaimer... it's simply "fresh roadkill" you didn't want to go to waste. Instead of
rotting on the ground you gave it new life in the form of educating the masses... ;)
Killian February 12th, 2007, 01:15 AM

Ballastic gelatin with possible plaster framing inside acting as 'bones' seems like a decent possibility. I think it'd be quite realistic.
I have not a clue about adding 'blood' and such, unfortunately. I'd think your balloon idea wouldn't be at all genuinely realistic. I'm sure someone will respond with a great idea
for that though(+ probably a better idea than mine in regards to the body!) :p

Well, being a religious Mythbusters fan, Ballistics gel was the first thing that popped into my head. But I was going for a more DIY kind of job. Plus, you ever see the prices for
good Ballistics gel?..... crazy.
And festergrump, the notion of a pig actually did cross my mind, but I got rid of it when I got to the question, "Where in God's name am I going to get a pig hide...."
festergrump February 12th, 2007, 01:39 AM

If the idea of using an animal carcass isn't sufficient, try using plaster and newspaper strips (much like paper mache) around a head sized melon (small watermelon?
Cantelope?) to simulate a human head.
The 'cranium' of paper reinforced plaster should be about equivalent to bone as well as the melon/brain-matter insides.
No further ideas how to simulate the hand, though, other than perhaps a discarded manequin hand. Maybe not the whole manequin but a ring display? I've every so often seen
whole manequins for sale cheap at garage sales and flea markets, alike...
[EDIT: Here you go... How about poking small rib bones through cooked sausage links? I know it sounds stupid, but wouldn't that be just about right for blowing it up and
measuring the effect? I'm not being facetious, really. Stretch a latex glove over the digits and pack the palm in with maybe ground beef? It's not too far off from the real
thing.]

Wow, thanks for the quick correspondence :D
Anyways, thanks for the paper mache idea, I'll probably use that for my head.
I really wanted to do the hand though, since a lot of amateurs tend to have explosives go off in their hands much more often than strapped to their head :p
Anyone know of any easily made substance similar to ballistics gelatin? Besides, of course, Jell-O. Though, that may have to work. :D
Edit: After thinking about it more today, I think candle wax would be a pretty good idea...
Match February 13th, 2007, 11:30 PM

I don't mean to make a kewl unknowledgable post, but can't you readily create your own balistics gelatin via recipe on the forum?

Not that I know of. I searched The Forum before asking and what I got was a thread of a guy that ordered ballistics gel.
InfernoMDM February 14th, 2007, 02:50 PM

You need to look a little harder, heres a link and I believe they may have another thread in the archives.
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=6133&highlight=ballistics+gel
Shalashaska February 17th, 2007, 10:30 PM

Okay, so after thinking about it, I'm going to make a plaster mold of a hand and use some kind of wax for the model hand. I'll probably still fill it with the fake blood, just
because that's one of the main things I want to see :D
paul88 March 11th, 2007, 03:09 AM

How about this. Get ahold of a head sized object (slightly smaller)
Pour some plaster over it about the thickness of the human skull.
Next try and get ahold of a latex like a halloween mask and place it over the plaster as its skin (apply adhesive so it will stick)
make a brain matter related substance and drill a hole in the top of the head or pour directly in the bottom and seal the hole.
You can either blow a balloon up to pour the plaster on or get a foam fake head (like the ones used for wigs) and you can burn the foam out of the mold or simply pop the
balloon.
Hope it helps

I've got a 'recipe' for a sort of homemade ballistics gel. Start with a bunch of raw meat. Chop it fairly finely, put it in a pot full of water, and start to boil it, stirring occasionally.
Continue adding water as it boils away. After about an hour and a half, remove it from heat, and allow it to set. You get an ugly mass of this meat goo, looks slightly less
edible than SPAM. Not as clear as ballistics gel, so it's hard to get measurements from bullets and stuff unless you poke something into the hole behind it. Haven't tried it with
explosives.
Fill a plaster skull with it, and enjoy.
anonymous411 June 24th, 2007, 04:55 AM

Why not carve a pork roast into the shape of a hand, inject with blood, stitch up a layer of fat and pigskin around it, and adorn with press-on nails. Voila! Disgusting.
LibertyOrDeath June 24th, 2007, 08:43 AM

Ballastic gelatin with possible plaster framing inside acting as 'bones' seems like a decent possibility. I think it'd be quite realistic.A possible refinement might be to use ceramic
rods for the bones, as natural bone is essentially a porous ceramic matrix with soft tissue (e.g., collagen, blood vessels) growing within the matrix.
Hydroxyapatite (HAP), a commonly-used biomaterial and bone substitute, would likely be ideal if you really wanted to get fancy and could find a source. But even HAP would
likely not mimic the mechanical properties of natural bone perfectly, as HAP is generally used as a porous material through which soft tissue can grow to promote
vascularization. That soft tissue lends the HAP (and natural bone) a degree of elasticity that pure HAP would lack.
Natural bones (e.g., left over from eating fried chicken or pork ribs) are another idea, but their mechanical properties might be altered by the cooking process.
Buying raw meat with bones included, extracting the bones, and then incorporating them into ballistic gelatin might be the ideal method. But if you wanted to truly compare
effects of explosions/bullets/whatever on the bony gelatin, it would be best to standardize the bones as much as possible, which would really require the use of artificial bone.
These are just ideas, and they may be overkill. It really depends on how fancy you want to get and how much accuracy you desire.
sbovisjb1 June 24th, 2007, 09:26 PM

Use pigs corpses. They behave the same as a human under stress circumstances. Don't take my word for it. But its an idea that has been suggested and used by professionals.
anonymous411 June 25th, 2007, 01:11 AM

sbovisjb1: You can buy suckling pigs and an entire pig's head in Chinatown markets.
bigbhoy July 23rd, 2007, 12:51 PM

A pig would obviously be the most realistic choice as it'll be the closest thing you can get outside of actually having a human test subject. If you couldn't source one or afford
the price that they wanted. Then ballstics gel would probably be the only other choice that you could make compared to methods like paper mache etc.
Here is what looks like a cheaper alternative that you may be able to use depending on the quantities that you may need:
Homemade recipe (http://www.myscienceproject.org/gelatin.html)
NoltaiR July 23rd, 2007, 01:40 PM

I will begin this reply saying that I truly question the intelligence (if any) of all who have posted in this thread thus far.
Having that said, if you are trying to demonstrate explosive capabilities, anything that remotely looks like a hand can be used. You can buy small mannequins at hobby lobby
or just about any craft store or any outlet that caters to clothing stores.
Seriously.. this isn't rocket science and should be the very least of your worries if experimenting with explosives.
LibertyOrDeath July 24th, 2007, 09:45 AM

I will begin this reply saying that I truly question the intelligence (if any) of all who have posted in this thread thus far.Thanks for being courteous enough to point that out.
Perhaps you can enlighten us intellectual dwarves and explain exactly what was said that you find so stupid?
Having that said, if you are trying to demonstrate explosive capabilities, anything that remotely looks like a hand can be used. You can buy small mannequins at hobby lobby
or just about any craft store or any outlet that caters to clothing stores.Are you suggesting that anything that has the mere superficial appearance of a body part will have the
same mechanical properties as an actual body part and will behave the same way when subjected to an explosion?
Seriously.. this isn't rocket science and should be the very least of your worries if experimenting with explosives.While a lot of discussion on explosive effects on human bodies
might be overkill for what I gather are Shalashaska's simple demonstration purposes, this subject could be every bit as complicated as rocket science if one wanted to carry it
far enough.
Think of all the variables involved in research on terminal wounding effects of bullets: it's a subject complex enough that people have devoted professional careers to it. The
study of terminal effects of explosives would be FAR MORE complex. Now you have to take into account such variables as standoff distance; the explosive used, including
amount and detonation properties such as brisance; intervening barriers, if any; shrapnel effects, if any; and so on.
If anything, I'd say that such studies might best be neglected not because of their simplicity, but because of their intractable complexity for the amateur researcher with his
limited funds and resources.
EDIT: No sweat NoltaiR, I just wanted to point out another perspective.
NoltaiR July 24th, 2007, 09:52 AM

This is the first time I have had to say this, but...
I stand corrected.
You have pointed out a logical reasoning behind the need for such a product, and did so with proper grammar and spelling (which is more than I can say for some around
here).
Continue on my fellow forumite.
nbk2000 July 24th, 2007, 11:24 AM

Fake body parts would also be excellent for knife training, to simulate slicing/ripping/stabbing.
perrymk July 25th, 2007, 08:47 AM

If you can associate yourself with a university research group you might be able to acquire real human body parts for your experiment.
If you work in a forensic facility and can justify your needs you may find working with a university easier. If you are a student it may be possible to approach a forensic facility
for an internship.
When I was a mere puppy I knew a biologist in Chicago (friend of the family) that acquired body parts from funeral homes, city morgues and hospitals. These were usually
unknown or unclaimed corpses. I suspect this might be a bit more difficult today.
A little off topic but perhaps relevant. Setting off explosives is illegal in most places, as is corpse abuse. I deduce from your post that you wish to record yourself doing this and
perhaps even take credit for it. Working with law enforcement might be prudent.
teshilo July 28th, 2007, 11:08 AM
In Vietnam war era dead body corpses used for testing various AP land mines .CIA for testing pistol bullets used sheep dressed in Soviet uniform.
NoltaiR July 28th, 2007, 04:14 PM

Well let's grab a shovel and find a graveyard!
nbk2000 July 28th, 2007, 06:25 PM

In 1974, Willard Gaylin, M.D., a psychiatrist who at the time was president of the Institute of Society, Ethics and the Life Sciences in Hasting-on-Hudson, New York, wrote a
chilling article for Harper's Magazine entitled "Harvesting The Dead."
In the article, Gaylin coined a new term for a new kind of cadaver that would have the legal status of one who is dead but with none of the qualities one normally associates
with death. According to Gaylin, this new kind of cadaver would be called a "neomort," meaning newly dead. The "brain dead" neomort would be a warm, respirating,
pulsating, evacuating, and excreting body requiring nursing, dietary, and general grooming attention.
These "living" cadavers could then be stored in "neomortoria" (units in hospitals where neomorts on life-support systems could be housed) for organ transplantation, medical
and nursing education, and drug research.
Sounds like an interesting idea. I first heard of the term 'neomort' in an article in HUSTLER magazine, of all places. :o
There it was discussed about how neomort's were being used to test car-restraints in test-crashes, and motorcycle helmets for head-trauma reduction in impact tests.
I know the military has done the same thing with fresh cadaver legs for land-mine tests.
Shalashaska July 29th, 2007, 02:28 AM

How depressing would that be? You donate your body to science, expecting something grand like helping cure cancer or AIDS in some way, but in reality, you're just a body in
a pile, waiting to be blown to pieces by a land mine :P
nbk2000 July 29th, 2007, 06:51 AM

Which would I prefer?
I'd rather my corpse be blown up by testing a new landmine, than used to develop a cure for AIDS so fags and niggers can keep fucking.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Flash Glass
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nbk2000 March 20th, 2007, 06:00 AM

I saw a post on another forum , about 'frozen lightning', which is the pattern of an electrical discharge in a lucite object.
Anyways, while the resulting 'art' are so much k itsch, the process of production is quite interesting.
The lucite blocks are saturated with an electrica l c h a r g e f r o m a n e l e c t r o n b e a m g u n , a n d t h e c h a r g e d b l o c k g r o u n d e d o u t .
In the process of grounding out, the lucite em its a bright flash a nd, of course, a high-voltage charge, just like a capacitor
discharging. See attached picture.
This got m e to thinking that, depending on the ability o f the lucite being able to retain it's charge for a long time, it'd be an
interesting protective device.
I m a g i n e a l a minate of the charged luctie between regular glass. It's in a window fram e. Piggies com e to sm ash'n'rake their
way into your house.
Pigg y with the rake gets a few thousan d volts shot through him as the ch a r g e g r o u n d s o u t t h r o u g h t h e r a k e a n d h i s a t t a c h e d
body, while sim ultanously flash-blindin g any night-adap ted eyes. :p
The lucite loses m ost of it's structural strength after discharge from the occluded fractures, but until then, it's strong .
I got the idea for this from the last episode of GIST SAC1, where the intruding pigs went to break the wall window of the Major's
house, and got flashed for their trouble by the window. :p This was too similiar to ignore.
sdjsdj March 20th, 2007, 09:50 AM

Y o u ' d n e e d a n e l e c t r o n b e a m trained on it to m aintain the charge long-term, but for doors and windows this is a fantastic idea.
How about a charged lucite plate resting on a g lass plate, earthed when som ebody treads on it? A sort of short-term delaying
land m i n e !
megalomania March 21st, 2007, 02:10 AM

I was reading about frozen lightning too recently. The deviousness of your m i n d n e v e r c e a s e s t o a m a z e m e :) I never thought
m ore about it than th e dendritic patters were m ildly am using...
It m ight be easier to incorporate a transparent (fine m esh) metal screen into the window connected to a po werful
supercapacitor that discharges when th e g l a s s i s b r o k e n . Maybe use one of those windows with the blinds inside. Liq uid crystal
wind ows should also be able to conduct an electric charge since that's how they ch ange from transparent to opaque.
nbk2000 March 21st, 2007, 08:41 AM

Use the wire mesh as a contin uity check. When the resistance of the wire m esh is sufficently altered to indicate a break, the
capacitors dump their charge through the remaining wires, which act as EBW 's. :)
tmp March 21st, 2007, 12:38 PM

A n d I t h o u g h t I h a d a m e a n s t r e a k i n m e ! O n e ( o r m ore) gets toasted with
with potentially kilojoules of electricty and the others get tem porarily blinded
by the flash am plified by their nightvision gear. W ow ! The idea of wiremesh
screen is interesting. Like an electric fence built into the window.
jellywerker March 28th, 2007, 10:35 AM

Lucite is plexiglas/acrylic by the way.
W hat a coincidence, I am "encouraged " to m a k e a p o s t , a n d t h e r e i s a p ost covering things similar to what I am working on in
m y physics class at the m o m ent!
The problem is, as pointed out by sdjsdj, lucite wouldn't hold the charge long. Depending on the hum idity, it would slowly leach
into the air. I think an electron beam is overkill for keeping the plastic charged in this case, but I'll have to research what an
alternative m ight be. I am sure there is something sim ple that could be done without m uch effort.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Doppler W e a t h e r R A D A R a n d
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nbk2000 April 14th, 2007, 08:53 AM

I just had the thought that Do ppler weather RADAR c o u l d p o s s i b l y b e u s e d a s a m e a n s o f p o s i t i o n a l f i x i n g b y s o m e o n e w i t h a
corner reflector and a ballon to lift it.
Since a large corner reflector returns almost all of the in cident energy back to the source, that should show up as a very high
return echo on a doppler RADAR.
Reason this could be useful (if it worked) is because m ost such weather RADAR 's are accessible via internet websites of the
organisations that are operating them (in the US anyways).
Thusly, one could raise a ballon over their position for a period of tim e, allowing the RADAR to sweep it several tim es, then
acce ss the website and note the location of an imm obile high-return sign al relative to their approximate location and the
approaching weather system.
That and just to fuck with the weatherperson's head. :p
It probably wouldn't work, because weather RADAR is for m onitoring very large objects (storm s) so it likely would filter out any
s m a ll objects, regardless (or especially because) of it's high return.
Proxim ity to the RADAR would likely affect any possible detection.
S o m e tests on the effectivene s s o f c o m m ercial marine RADAR reflectors:

http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/radar_reflector_test.htm
imported__Jim May 1st, 200 7, 09:38 PM

W ell, the NW S's S-band WSR -88D presents a data 'display' that radially (distance out) gives you 1 km per 'range bin' and
a x i a lly gives you 1 degree resolution. Even the much sought after "Level II" Nexrad 'data' isn't finer than that (but it will be in
the next year or so.)
You would probably 'show up' sooner (and of m ore interest!) on any ASR-9's or ASR-11 (airport surveilance RADARs) operating
in your area. Here in this area there are four I know of within a two-county area (on account of the major airport in the m i d d l e
and the need to then observe the air traffic over the two counties either side.)
Quickie guide to the above cited RADAR s: http://www.naic.edu/~phil/rfi/a sr4911radar.pdf
Y o u m i g h t e v e n ' s h o w u p ' o n t h e C - b a n d T D W R (term inal doppler weather) that o perate near som e major airports; these look
for T-Storm outflow that cause low-level windshear probs.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > FLIR camera
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ucorky April 26th, 2007, 11:55 PM

I am looking to rent/buy a FLIR camera for a very low budget experiement.
I know they run about 6K to buy but any suggestions on obtaining one to use for a w eek would be appreciated.
PM me please.:o
Hirudinea April 27th, 2007, 08:28 PM

FLIR stands for Forward Looking Infra Red I assume, so do you just want an infrared camera? If so look up "infra red cam mod" or words to that effect on Google, modern
(cheap) digital cameras can see in infrared, they have a filter put over the lens to stop them from seeing it though, all you have to do is take the filter off and you have IR,
point it so it looks forw ard and I assume it would be FLIR.
stupid939 April 27th, 2007, 09:40 PM

I believe that ucorky is talking about thermal imaging cameras. A quick search showed that he was right, and the cheap models went for around 6K. He was probably searching
for something like this (http://www.imaging1.com/thermal/IR_250.html), but all of the sites that I visited, stated that you would need to call in order to negotiate rentals.
I am guessing that you are testing masking heat techniques or camouflage, and I am pretty sure that you can find the results that you are looking for on the net. If you inform
us on what you are doing, I'm sure that someone can help you and save you a few hundred/thousand dollars.

FLIR tends to have two modes, it can be active or passive. Active uses the same camera as passive, but a tight beam of IR is used for illumination. Pretty much the same as
NVG. FLIR tends to be thermal wavelengths (long IR), rather than shorter NIR as found w ith NVGs.
Often found on aircraft and things that move forwards at high speeds, as it is useful for seeing in the dark and through fog, etc. and often integrated into a digital sighting
system that covers multiple spectrum ranges, including NIR and visible, and often microw ave and radar.
Feel free to ask any questions.
bigbhoy June 21st, 2007, 08:52 PM

I am guessing that you are testing masking heat techniques or camouflage, and I am pretty sure that you can find the results that you are looking for on the net. If you inform
us on what you are doing, I'm sure that someone can help you and save you a few hundred/thousand dollars.
I was also wondering about what exactly they could see through. I'm sure you've seen those police shows on tv, in which the helicopter has tracked some kid in a neighbor's
backyard. They think they're safe, but the camera has caught their heat signature despite them hiding in a w heelie bin.
Also I caught a repeat of a Mythbusters episode last months on Sky & they used one a thermal camera to test the various w ays of how it was bypassed in the movies. A w ay
that they got around it was by using a fire suit (the silvery metallic looking one), which concealed all the body heat.
This got me wondering about those 'Rescue Blankets' that you see people getting draped around them after getting rescued from w hatever dangerous situation on tv. Just how
effective would they be against a thermal imaging camera!
Sample Pic (http://i6.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/95/26/59f9_1.JPG)
I doubt one w ould block all the heat if you were hidden under it, but do you think a few layers of them would prove adequate in blocking all the body heat from being detected?

If you touch it, you will be seen after a few seconds due to conduction. However, if it is above you, to reflect the IR radiation, you will be fine for much longer. You should
probably use two layers, spaced a few inches apart, just to be on the safe side.
Hirudinea June 25th, 2007, 03:24 PM

This got me wondering about those 'Rescue Blankets' that you see people getting draped around them after getting rescued from w hatever dangerous situation on tv. Just how
effective would they be against a thermal imaging camera!
If you touch it, you will be seen after a few seconds due to conduction. However, if it is above you, to reflect the IR radiation, you will be fine for much longer. You should
probably use two layers, spaced a few inches apart, just to be on the safe side.
A thermal blanket might also protect you longer if you wraped yourself in a regular blanket first, then the thermal blanket, this would insulate your body heat from the thermal
blanket for a sometime longer, just like a winter coat stays w arm on the inside and cold on the outside.
LibertyOrDeath June 25th, 2007, 05:49 PM

Thermal imaging is a subject that I've been very concerned about for several years. If in the future it ever becomes necessary to resist a tyrannical government, thermal
imaging w ill be one of the guerrilla's w orst enemies (and best friends, if he can afford it or otherwise obtain it).
Here's a post I found on another board years ago (bold emphasis added):
I was in Search & Rescue for many years, and we used various "thermo" devices for searches, including aircraft-mounted devices. It's not uncommon for folks w ho've been lost
for a couple days or more to actually hide from the searchers; this is especially common in kids, but it often happens with adults, too.
The thing to remember is that you want to "break up" your heat signature so that it doesn't come off as an identifiable shape or blob. They can't really see your outline; only
the concentration of your heat signature show s up on their monitor. On cold days the device works much better; the cooler the surrounding area, the better you show up. Even
so, if it's w arm and sunny during the day, then rocks can store enough heat to give them false readings.
You got to remember they are probably going at least 100 mph that's why the device has to "look" forward. Whatever shows up on the screen ain't there long. Keep that in
mind, and make your heat signature very vague and confusing. Stay the hell out of the open, and avoid objects that will contrast you: e.g., walking up a creek would be a
mistake. We found a fellow in just such a manner; he showed up like a turd in a punch bowl. On the other hand, you could hardly get a signature from a man standing on
pavement during the summer at all.
So think in terms of overhead cover for aircraft evasion; be thinking brush "screens," rocks, ledges, and deep little valleys, etc. In rougher country it's not really much of a
problem, since those are the kind of "covered" routes you're likely to be using anyway.
On all the aircraft I dealt with, the device "looked forward" from the nose, and there was definitely a "dead space." Also remember that when the aircraft turns, etc., large areas
are missed. There were lots of times w hen I was coordinating the aircraft from the ground w ith a radio, and they would have a hard time getting my signature for "calibration" if
I was on a hillside or deep valley, or if they came in on the "off" side of a steep canyon w here I was. If I had wanted to "evade" them, they would have had a hell of time.
We also had some very nice hand-held units that we played w ith quite a bit. They are probably more dangerous to the evader than aircraft-mounted units, since they function in
more of a "line of sight" mode and can be manipulated more slow ly and with more control. They worked well for finding kids that w ould squirrel into brush for shelter and not
respond to their names. Of course we used them on each other as well and experimented with "fooling" them.
On most searches we would force march in at night, since most folks get reported missing real late in the day. I was on the "First Response Team" and we wanted everything
as fresh and "hot" as possible. By daylight folks w ould be coming in to "help," so things would get all fucked up. We wanted to be long in the bush before they got there.
After interview ing the "reporter," looking at the topos for "natural lines of drifts" and taking in account age, experience, and what the individual was doing out there to begin
with, we made a plan. Actually, tracking at night can work in your advantage; using a headlamp you can "shadow" sign that wouldn't show up in the daylight. Some of us
would "set up" on the "natural lines of drifts" and glass the large, open parks, especially at the junction of trails and creeks. With the hand-held devices you could get a
signature at 700 yards if conditions were right for it and if they were not behind rocks or a thick screen of brush. Keep that in mind if you find yourself the object of desire. As
soon as they find any sign of you they will put in concealed blocking forces up in front. Anyway, that's getting off in another direction.
We tried the "space blanket" concealment gag, recommended in so many "militia" gear lists. It does and it doesn't w ork. This is what w e found:
If you wrap yourself up in the blanket, you concentrate your heat signature and end up standing out like a whore in church. The mylar blankets themselves don't give off much
of a signature, but they still allow heat to be transferred to the cooler air around you because you don't have enough dead air space. In short, they don't w ork w orth a fuck in
such conditions, and, once again, the so-called "militia" people don't have a clue about w hat they are suggesting.
The blankets can work if you rig them as a low "tarp shelter" with at least 24" of dead air between you and the "line of sight" of the device. We found out, how ever, that a
simple GI poncho does just as good a job. Something else interesting is that good sleeping bags work w ell at hiding your signature, especially under a tarp shelter or in a bivy
sack. Be thinking about lots of dead air between you and whatever overhead cover you have. If you can break up your signature to the point w here they can't "read" it for
what it is, they will fly right on by.
Rigging a tarp shelter at the base of a large tree with lots of branches and thick brush around and above it would fuck them up good. We also tried the classic w inter "camp" of
digging the snow from around the base of a big pine tree and using the overhead branches for cover. That worked w ell for even the handheld unit, as you were below the line
of sight.
If you have to evade, just assume they are going to be using thermo devices, especially if you live somewhere near national parks, etc., w here folks are recreating in the back
country. These areas always have both paid and volunteer Search & Rescue teams with dogs, etc. Maybe even join S&R for a season or tw o it's good outdoor experience,
and you will find out exactly w hat they have and how well they use it. S&R also coordinates with the Sheriff's Department, so you w ill find out just how much those dickheads
know as w ell. It will take a day or two for the Alphabet Thugs to get on the scene. You need to be gone before the goons get there.
When you go on the run, "locals" will of course will be the first to respond, and lots of times they use the civvie S&R folks because they are for the most part far more
experienced and know the local area well. It pays to know w ho these folks are in your area and how a search gets conducted, especially when a time comes where you are the
guest of honor.
This is a good subject. So many folks have this Che Guevara fantasy that they are going to be conducting ambushes and raids and then "fade" undetected into the wilderness.
Fuck, I've brought so many so-called "woodsmen" out of the backcountry, I've lost count. If are going to survive as a guerrilla, you'd better start getting "hard" right now. You'd
better be one "land-navigating SOB" and have good feet under you. There are other things that need addressing too, but this thread was about thermo detection.
Other IR countermeasures I've read about include ghillie suits made of natural vegetation. This is supposed to w ork quite well. Even plain old ghillie suits may do the trick,
although they're hot to wear.
An umbrella covered w ith natural vegetation has also been used by some military snipers as portable concealment (not just from IR, either). The stand-off distance between
you and the vegetation provided by the umbrella's "stem" prevents your body heat from being transferred effectively to the umbrella's "dome."
It's also worth noting that in urban areas, IR wavelengths do not penetrate glass well. This is why IR imagers need to use special material for the lenses (sapphire is one, if
memory serves).
The follow ing link also provides very good information:
http://ww w.snipercountry.com/Articles/IRDetection.asp
Of course, for an IR imager to be effective, the user has to know generally w here to look. These units w ere certainly available when Eric Robert Rudolph w as on the run and
when everyone was looking for the "DC snipers." So they don't provide the pigs w ith godlike awareness of everything. It's still very good to know how to defeat these devices,
though.
Jacks Complete July 2nd, 2007, 08:14 PM

Not sapphire, but Selenium Oxide is used for longer IR wavelengths. It appears black and opaque to the eye, and is a toxic material that is water damaged easily. Therefore it is
alw ays coated with something, usually an AR (anti-reflective) coating.
That article by the SAR guy pretty much backs up what I said.
I recall an interesting cold war story. The West German side dug a tunnel under the border somew here, for some reason. One day they looked over the ground above it, and the
snow had been cleared, all the way along it. Looking over the other side, it was also clear! They paniced, then someone realised that the heat of the men digging and the
heaters had simply melted the snow on the ground in the marginal conditions for the snow. They shut down the heaters and the problem disappeared.
Obviously, a modern thermal imager w ould have found the tunnel in a few seconds.
imported__Jim July 6th, 2007, 10:51 PM

A little background information, if I may, as to why FLIR is called FLIR (it's historical background) as opposed to other obscure IR systems like IRLS and SLIR.
http://ww w.w at.edu.pl/review/optor/10(2)111.pdf
(If the link above does not work this paper can be found by doing a google search on: "10(2)111.pdf")
Infrared devices and techniques (This is a good paper BTW)

A. Rogalski and K. Chrzanowski
Opto-Electronis Review 10(2), 111-136 (2002)
"FLIR" is archaic sixties jargon for forward-looking infrared

to distinguish these systems from [aircraft "belly"-mounted]
IR line scanners, which look down rather than forward. Conversely,
most sensors that do look forward are not considered to be FLIRs
(e.g. [InfraRed] cameras and astronomical instruments). The term
"FLIR" should be eliminated from IR techno-speak, but is
still used and is likely to remain in the jargon for a while.
- - - - - - - -
And this -
IRLS SLIR FLIR
http://student.bton.ac.uk/engineering/msc_de/DGM01_MSc_CV/CHAPTER9.PDF
The Tornado reconnaissance aircraft carries three scanners, an IRLS (IR linescan) slung under the fuselage and two sidew ays-looking IR (SLIR). The IRLS scans across the track
of the aircraft from horizon to horizon and thus allows a two-dimensional swath to be captured as the aircraft flies forward. The imagery is corrected for the geometric 'bow-tie'
distortion which results from the variable 'footprint' of a sensor photosite as it is scanned from directly beneath the aircraft's track to the horizon. Therefore a pixel captured from
near the horizon should not be displayed with an area equal to one captured from near the aircraft track. This is particularly important because it is often impossible (or unw ise)
to fly directly over the suspected hostile territory, meaning that much of the useful information is contained in the relatively low resolution pixels tow ards the horizon.
The SLIRs are framing sensors that look out from either side of the aircraft. Their imagery is arranged to scroll from left to right on the navigator's monitor w hilst the IRLS
imagery scrolls from top to bottom. All imagery is electronically annotated with the aircraft's height, velocity, position and heading at regular intervals. When the data is returned
to the ground either by radio link, or physically, it can be further enhanced by a ground-based image processing workstation. This reconnaissance system proved itself to be a
great asset to the allies during the Gulf War of 1991.
A third type of IR scanner is used by other aircraft, helicopters and civilian agencies. It is called FLIR (forward-looking IR). Like, the SLIR it is a framing sensor but it may be
mounted in the nose of an aircraft or slung on a gimbal mount underneath a helicopter or in ground-based surveillance applications.
The AGEMA "Thermovision 1000" is a FLIR operating in the 8-12 m band. It has a 12-bit 'luminance' resolution and a spatial resolution that allows it to detect a human on land
at 3 km, a 30-foot boat at 10 km or an aircraft at 60 km [43]. It employs a electromechanical scanning system to focus radiation onto a five element SPRITE (signal processing
in the element) array [44]. This type of detector allows very good signal to noise performance to be achieved from a scanning system.
imported__Jim July 6th, 2007, 11:07 PM

Thermal imaging is a subject that I've been very concerned about for several It's also worth noting that in urban areas, IR w avelengths do not penetrate glass well. This is why
IR imagers need to use special material for the lenses (sapphire is one, if memory serves).
Prowling around in the paper titled "Infrared devices and techniques (link above) paragraph 2.7 is about "Infrared Optics" and mentions the materials used for refractive optics
include Germanium (2-15 um transmission range), Silicon (1-7 um and 25-300 um ranges), fused silica (.3 - 3 um), glass BK-7 (no low er than 2.5 um), Zinc Selenide (2 - 22
um) and Zinc Sulfide 2 - 12 um).
A radiator at ambient temperature (a little cooler than the human body) would radiate most effectively in the 8 - 14 um band w hereas a hotter object such as a furnace would
emit the greater amount of its radiation in the 3 - 5 um band
anonymous411 July 16th, 2007, 06:18 AM

If you're looking for 24 inches of dead air to diffuse your signature, might a 42" Balcar metalized photography umbrella work? And if so, could you construct an improvised shield
from a space-blanket-lined normal umbrella?
This topic is w ay outside my area of expertise, but it seems like an interesting possibility.
http://ww w.calumetphoto.com/resources/images/prod_tnlg/bf20203-1.jpg
LibertyOrDeath July 16th, 2007, 06:56 PM
Jacks Complete and Jim: Thanks for that further information.
anonymous411:
I'm not sure the metal lining or space-blanket lining would even be necessary.
The real advantage of the umbrella is simply that it creates space for airflow betw een you and a barrier that stands between you and the IR imager. Thus, you don't transfer
any appreciable heat to the barrier. But that barrier still needs to be camouflaged -- an umbrella can still be seen for what it is through an IR camera! Natural vegetation should
do the trick in appropriate surroundings.
------------
To get an idea of the capability of IR imaging devices, I looked up some videos on YouTube. By observing how certain barriers block the bright thermal signature of the people
in the videos, we can see that thermal devices are far from invincible:
http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=0jwlwENJnlg
In the above video, we see at 0:22 that even heavy clothing can GREATLY reduce thermal signature relative to uncovered areas (such as the face and hands).
The thermal signature at 0:57 looks a lot brighter for some reason (gain turned up?), but the car in front of the person blocks his thermal signature completely -- just as an
umbrella or similar screening device might.
At about 1:38, we see that the jacket worn by the guy on the left has reduced the IR signature from his torso enormously. Being covered head-to-toe with similar material (or
something like a ghillie suit) might make him nearly invisible to a thermal scan -- especially a cursory one.
Here's a similar video:
http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=e34kiSgr8l0
Note at 0:12 how the man's jacket appears cooler tow ard the bottom, where the jacket "hugs" him less and fits more loosely. That's to be expected: heavy but loose-fitting
clothing that allow s more air circulation between the skin and the cloth should present a lower IR profile. Note the comment in my first post on this thread w here the search &
rescue veteran said that a simple GI poncho does a good job of masking IR.
Note also around the 1:00 mark how the IR system doesn't see through foliage itself -- only through the darkness created by the foliage. A person completely covered with
foliage would not be seen. This is very well demonstated in the same video around 2:17.

Basically, it's not a FLIR unless it is on a vehicle. An IR thermal imager is just a thermal imager.
The YouTube videos are quite interesting.
One thing to point out is that the difference in the temperatures that can be picked up are very, very small on high-end cameras. Less than 1/10th of a degree will show up well
on a high end camera. In a fast scan, these tiny differences w ould be missed if there were something else w arm in the picture, as the cameras tend to auto-adjust the scale, so
the hottest thing is alw ays white, and the coldest is always black (or perhaps colours) so a 800 degree ciggie butt w ill mask you at 35 degrees, until the camera pans so the butt
is out the frame, then it will re-scale so you are the brightest thing visible.
http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=6mV4ecEbV1s&mode=related&search= show s a few more tricks, like the fact that garbage bags are see-through - hence the "X-ray" specs
you can buy for near IR cameras.
As an aside, you can use a thermal scan to check for heat loss in your house (it's on YouTube) and you can also use them to find hidden cameras and microphones, due to the
heat residue from the CCD and batteries.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > TABR E Armor system?
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View Full Version : TABRE Armor system?

Dear Friends,
I've been after this armor system for a long pe riod of tim e (about 2 years), but I'm unable to find any detail since it's quite
new system.
Essentially, AFAI understand it's som e sort of g rit fixed by mean s o f s o m e sort of (proprie tary) resin.
http://www.ih op-net.o rg/UniPu b / i H O P / p m / 1 1 0 3 3 1 8 6 . h t m l ? p m i d = 1 6 0 9 6 5 6 4

http://www.jtrauma.com/pt/re/jtraum a / f u l l t e x t . 0 0 0 0 5 3 7 3 - 2 0 0 5 0 7 0 0 0 -
00033.htm ;jsessionid=GwjZXn tXXT7DyLjjXQyMp 9 D G B m N T H F 6 x B T n L 1 2 3 2 X L m JvtK0ntlw!50530596!-949856144!8091!-1
This system is quite effective in m itiga ting blast shock waves which effectively eliminates /alleviate s land-m i n e s a n d s i m i l a r
explosive threats which vehicles or boots are exposed to.
This system m ight be quite effective for hardening im provised arm ors, m ight even prove useful in NBK's explosive body arm or.
A n y b o d y k n o w any detail regarding thereto? Re gards.
tomu May 9th, 2007, 10:39 AM

Do you know this PDF-file about rigid Polyurethanfoam used in blast protection
www.generalplastics.com / u p l o a d s / t e c h n o l o g y / P U F o a m AT.pdf
M y g u e s s i s s u c h f o a m is an integral part in TABRE.
Quote: " The TABREshield works as if resem bling a 'spo nge' - th e labyrin th of tiny air pockets in th e T A B R E s h i e l d ' s p o n g e '
traps energy from t h e e x p l o s i o n a n d b r e a k s - u p a n d a b s o r b s t h e s h o c k w a v e s f r o m the blast, capturing it in the air p o c k e t s a n d
forcing it through a convoluted path to escape. The two other layers in the system catch any fragments and resist the pressure
of the expan ding hot gases."
Search google with term s "Tabre blast attenuation" and the term s "Technology for Attenuating Blast Related Energy".
Have a look at the BBC article which describes TABRE as m inute grains of stone coated in resin. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/
tech/671647.stm

Do you know this PDF-file about rigid Polyurethanfoam used in blast protection
www.generalplastics.com / u p l o a d s / t e c h n o l o g y / P U F o a m AT.pdf
M y g u e s s i s s u c h f o a m is an integral part in TABRE.
Thank you for the link. It m ight be useful. However the inventor, IIRC, Eric Chadwick is a British guy.
I have run in to this, when I watched a docum entary abo ut arm ored vehicles on discovery. And since then, I've been after it.
Search google with term s "Tabre blast attenuation" and the term s "Technology for Attenuating Blast Related Energy".
I shall keep on searching.
tomu May 10th, 2007, 10:55 AM

There is a patent for: Aigis Engineering Solutions Ltd Blast. attenuation container. Date Lo d g e d : 2 9 M a y 2 0 0 3 . G B 0 3 1 2 2 6 4 . 5
Unfortunately I couldn't get m y hands on the patent itself, atleast for now.
I couldn't find anything on Eric Chadwick except a lot ab out an artist with this nam e.
Didi they blow up a Land Rover with an AT mine in this documentary? If yes then I've seen it to.

There is a patent for: Aigis Engineering Solutions Ltd Blast. attenuation container. Date Lo d g e d : 2 9 M a y 2 0 0 3 . G B 0 3 1 2 2 6 4 . 5
A c t u a l l y t h e s a m e p a t e n t ( I g u e s s ) i s a l s o p r e s e n t i n U S P T O u n d e r t h e n u m ber of 6938533. However, the patent m a k e s

reference to TABR E but does not expla in how TABRE is made. :m ad::m a d :
I couldn't find anything on Eric Chadwick except a lot ab out an artist with this nam e.
I m ight misp ronounce it. Beca u s e I d i d n o t s e e it written but rather heard it in a bastardized (i.e. translated) m anner. So it
m ight not be accurate in way I've written.
Didi they blow up a Land Rover with an AT mine in this documentary? If yes then I've seen it to.
Actually after showing an UN g uy (driving a SUV) who wa s s a v e d b y a n o t h er arm or system in Yugoslavia, they introduced it (i.e.
TABRE) by using two other landrovers. However IIRC the charge was a plastic bag full of TNT or some other HE.
The first vehicle witho ut TABRE is literally devastated, th e second one which was protected with TABRE retain ed its integrity.
:eek:
akinrog August 21st, 2007, 03:53 PM

Dear hynishim ura,
I b e l i e v e m o d s a n d g od of this forum generally hate pe ople who are advertising somethin g here especially if such thing is
c o m m ercial in nature.
I hum bly req uest you to edit /delete your post and better give som e illum inating / contributing information. Regards
Jacks Complete August 21st, 2007, 06:36 PM

Ah, but should we point and laugh at this guy? Or ask for m ore info?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Burying Chem icals
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arnold May 30th, 2007, 09:48 AM

I've got a problem. Soon I won't have any place to store my che micals. I can't do it at hom e and my every friend refused too.
So I'm considering burrying chemicals in a waterproof plastic bucket, protected with bags, silicone , silica ge l, and tape. Is it
suffiecient? Any suggestions?
Bratva May 30th, 2007, 03:00 PM

You may want to consider listing what chemicals you want to bury, as this would surely effect the m ethod of storage, as well as
p o s s i b l e i s s u es that would arise, such as incom patible substances.
nbk2000 May 30th, 2007, 03:06 PM

The question of access is important too.
How often would you be needing to get into this stash? If it'd be frequently, then burial wouldn't be appropriate. If it's to store
e x c e s s i n v e n tory beyond that you have im m e d i a t e n e e d f o r , t h e n yes, bury it.
cracker May 31st, 20 07, 06:5 1 PM

M a n y m e m bers here m ight question the value of this thread. I however am n o t o n e o f " T h e m ".
T h e I d e a y o u h a v e p r o p o s e d I h a v e b e e n e x e r c i s i n g f o r m any years of m y life or since 19 96 anyway. This was the year of m y

First Felony Arrest and Conviction.
By ruthlessly and rele ntlessly following a "burial system ",

I have been storing Pyrotechn ic and Scientific C hemicals U nderground since I was released from m y incarce r a t i o n t h o s e s o m e
11 years ago.
By "dura-packaging" like the suggestion below, I have one hundred percent successfully stored over 300 different C h e m i c a l
Reagents. Never with any dam aged product and yes I live in a very wet a rea.
( b a g g i n g a n d r e b a g g i n g 3 T i m es in Freezer Zip lock's. Then bagging that 5 tim e s a n d t y i n g e a c h b a g , S e a l i n g t h a t i n a 5 g a l l o n

or 30 gallon Bucket or Drum . Then finally wrapping the Drum in 3 separate bags to be sure it com es out of the Ground clean .)
I personally choose to store 3 even am ounts carefully d istributed throughout m y Country's Homeland. Always replenishing the
4th area (m ain use storage) to be sure that I alm ost never have to dig.
I h a v e s i n c e p e r s o n a l l y e x p e r i e n c e d p o l i c e s e a r c h e s o f m y t h i n g s a n d a r e a ' s m a n y tim es since I started applying this

precaution to m y business and everyday life and I can tell you there is nothing quite like sitting in jail on an investigation hold
and then being released 3 days later. All while laughing at the Police.:p "Its like sitting on Hog Sta tus Baby!":D
W hat ever burial m ethod is used it cannot be successful in "elud ing" unless it is actually carried through.
I have talked of this in the pa st here>http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=5996
I'v said it before and Ill say it again.........
"One Day 50 Pounds Of 99.7% High-Purity/Magnalium Flash Will "Resurface" The Earth's Crust To O nce Again W r e a k H a v o c
Am o n g M e n . "
nbk2000 May 31st, 20 07, 07:2 5 PM

Plastic bags are cheap, so use lots of 'em, eh? :)
T h e o t h e r g o od thing about having redundant caches is that you don't have to hit them all, which keeps any piggy surveillan ce
from discovering all your stashes.
bobsuruncle June 1st, 2007, 07:03 AM

Obviously, dont store incom p a t i b l e s t o g e t h e r , s o k e e p p r i m aries, acids and corrosives sep a r a t e . M a y b e u s e a c o o l b o x ? Y o u
dont want an y contam inants m ixing their way in either.
arnold June 1st, 2007, 07:52 AM

Is the cool box sufficiently waterproof?
Cracker, you don't use any silica gel?
How long can I store acids?
My stash : glycol, PE, sodium a z i d e , l e a d n i t r a t e , h e x a m ine, DMSO , benzidine, ch loral hyd rate, sulfur, alum inium, aceton,
acids, potasium carbonate, urea, potassium ferrocyanide, potassium chlorate, nitrometahne, EGDN, Pb azide caps, petn,
m aybe rezorcinol or TNR.
cracker June 2nd, 2007, 12:46 PM

Cracker, you don't use any silica gel?
I don't, not because a don't believe in it, but because I have had such good success with the simple "re-rap" or "dura-rap"
m ethod I use.
I h a v e f o u n d over the years that the m ost im portant thing is to just carry through with the burial. It's very easy to say "I can do
it tom orrow" or "I will when the barrel is full" Etc.
Any extra precautions like a Desiccant is always a good Idea. I have also been known to occasionally dip m y p a c k a g e s t o b e
buried in liquid roof rubber to ensure a total seal.
knowledgehungry June 2nd, 2007, 03:08 PM

One thing I would recom m end is using GPS coordinates to m ark your burials. It can be easy to forget where you hid
s o m ething. Especially in the woods where weather and time will completely change how the place looks.
arnold June 11th, 2007, 08:22 AM

Cracker, tell m e how long did you store the stuff underground???
O n e o b v i o u s d a n g e r i s t h a t t h e p l a c e m a y b e u rbanized or som e t h i n g l i k e t h a t , h o u s e s m a y b e b u ilt....
A n y s u g g e s t i o n s a n d / o r e x p i r i e n c e i n g u n s & a m mo caching ???
cracker June 11th, 2007, 02:14 PM

I choose to have a 2 year lim it of any chem ical storage if possib le. This helps to rotate stock, & re-fresh packaging. This also
allows m e to advance in m y techniques or skills applied to m y every day "security", by constantly planning and strategizing new
locations and ideas to elude.
As far as the threat of developm ent or "com promise" of the package, this is always a possibility.
F o r t h e s e r e a s o n ' s e n d a n g e r e d o r g a m e reserves can often be a good location, or possibly an elderly couples property, with
which you have no relation or ties of course. :p
W hile were on the subject of being careful I would also like to point out that I believe it is also a good idea to keep the
p a c k a g e a s e v i d e n c e f r e e a s p o s s i b l e . U s e u n m arked plain plastic bags, use rubber gloves when p a c k a g i n g a n d h a n d l i n g , a n d
alwa ys repack chemical labels or jars if necessary to keep anonymous.
Y u p , I v h a d a S m i t h - n - W e s s o n u n d e r t h e d i r t b efore, fo r a few m onths but m ostly just "High Power Oxidizers" and occasiona lly,
"Gre en" Drugs;)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > LED Incapacitator
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amachinist A ugus t 7t h, 2007, 08: 42 PM

Saw this on fox news, any com m ents on potential validity of this one?
http://www.foxnews.com /story/0,2933,292271,00.htm l
Intelligent Optical System s, Inc., of To rrance, Calif., has been granted a contract by the Department of Homeland Security to
develop what it calls the "LED Incapacitator," according to a DHS online newsletter.
T h e h a n d h e l d d e v i c e u s i n g l i g h t - e m i t t i n g d i o d e s to em it super-bright pulses of light at rapidly changing wavelengths, causing

disorientation, nausea and even vomiting in whomever it's pointed at
"There's one wavelength that gets everybody," says IOS Preside nt Bob Lieberm an. "Vlad [IO S top scientist Vladimir Rubtsov]
calls it 'the evil color.'"
P h a s e 1 o f t h e c o n t r a c t creating a working p r o t o t y p e h a s a l r e a d y b e e n c o m pleted, and Phase 2 will begin this fall a s

rese archers at Penn State's Institute of Nonlethal Defen s e T e c h n o l o g y p u t t h e p u k e - s a b e r t h r o u g h i t s p a c e s .
Phase 3 will be our shrink pha se," Lieberm a n s a i d , a d m itting that the prototype, 15 inches long with a 4-inch lens, is too large
and heavy to be comfortably carried on a belt.
DHS hopes to equip police, Border Patrol agents and Na tional Guardsm en with the barf-beam ers by 2010.
Hirudinea A ugus t 7t h, 2007, 09: 49 PM

S o u n d s l i k e R a y - B a n s a r e g o i n g t o b e W e t b a c k de reguire in 2010. :)
Enkidu A ugus t 7t h, 2007, 11: 29 PM

A new non-le thal weapon for fighting crim inals, border-jum pers, terrorists (probab l y ) , a n d g o d d a m n h i p p i e s .
Have you bought your reflective clothing yet?

Have you bought your reflective clothing yet?
Ah hell, I'll just tie a space blanket on myself with som e string.

Oh, defeated with a mirror. It just sim ple enough to work. There m ight be a waste of a few million bucks.
"Their simple m inds came up with a sim ple trick." Duke Leto Atreides.

Corner cubes. No nee d to aim.
Of course, it's a load of BS. I've seen every colour with a name, and m any without, and I've never felt sick from it. It's like the
s o n i c d e f e n s e s y s t e m s that use a really loud noise to drive people away. You just ignore it, and carry on. If it's powerful
enough that you need something to defend against it, then basic PPE will stop it - a bit of tissue in the ears is good for -20dB
on sound, and shutting one eye and looking away will be good for this. O r m irrored R ayba ns. Or even two pairs.
If th ere were one spe cific frequency of light that gets everyone, we would all know about it, because there would be signs on
the walls at paint m ix ing machines, stating that they can't make 30% blue, 4% red and 66% green. And your monitor would
have a like warning in Photoshop. :roll:
W4RGASM S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2007, 10:35 PM

It could be that it requires a certain frequency of flash as well as the colo ur, to trigger an epileptic-style response.
Enkidu S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2007, 11:01 PM

http://www.cnn.com /W O R L D / 9 7 1 2 / 1 7 / v i d e o . s e i z u r e s . u p d a t e / i n d e x . h t m l
powium S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2007, 07:29 AM

Corner cubes. No nee d to aim.
Absolutely. And there's no need to reinvent the wheel either - high visibility safety vests worn by m illions of workers already
h a v e t h e m , in the reflective stripes. Thats why when you take a photo of them (or car num ber plates) the reflective bits are
really overex p o s e d - t h e f l a s h is reflected right back at the cam era.
The question is whether these vests would reflect this m agical frequency. They ap pear to reflect wh ite light, so if the m agic
wavelength is within the visible spectrum I would expect them to.
W ouldn't the easy way to defend against this be to wear dark su n g l a s s e s ? S o u n d s p r e t t y b o g u s t o m e .
reamio S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2007, 09:39 AM

I don't know if any of you gen t l e m e n h a v e a l r e a d y s e e n i t , b u t i n c a s e y o u h a v e n 't the 1981 sci-fi m o v i e L o o k e r ( d i r e c t e d a n d
written by Michael Crichton) co n t a i n s a b l i n d i n g / d a z i n g f l a s h w e a p o n n a m ed the L.O.O.K.E.R. (Light O cular-O riented Kinetic
Emo t i v e R e s p o n s e s ) g u n .
Guess what, the protection from this weapon was a very cool pair of sunglasses.
More info about the movie:
http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Looker
If you're inte rested in downloading the m ovie:
http://www.warezws.com/viewtopic.php?t=46888&highlight=looker
I really did enjoy it.:D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Acquiring Animal O rgans
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View Full Version : Acquiring Animal Organs
Killian A ugus t 8t h, 2007, 08: 33 PM

W h e r e a n d h ow do you acquire anim al organs? I've don e everything but call farms asking for a stab at a sooner-or-later
anim al carcass(fresh)!
You know.. for experim ents.
W ith that being said; I've don e plenty of searching on the laws of acquirem ent and distribution of animal organs an d k e e p
coming up with nothing. Perhaps it's the key wording or such, bu t I'm coming up broke. Any inform ation regarding state and/or
national organ acquirem ent policies and laws?
An added bonus would be methods of purchasing without coming off like a total fruit cake. Student surgeon looking for practice
c o m e s t o m ind.
Hopefully I'm not the only one with such a curious nature. :o
P.s. - I wasn't sure which category this would fit in. My apologies if it's incorrectly placed.
chemdude1999 A ugus t 8t h, 2007, 09: 45 PM

If you don't m ine previously frozen item s, try a large grocery store that has a large Black custom e r b a s e . T h e y o f t e n h a v e b e e f
hearts, kidneys, brains, chicken parts, whole ch ickens, whole rab bits, etc. The kidneys sm ell like piss.
If th ey ask, tell them you are feeding your dog a raw diet and need a varied organ m eat portion. Don't be afraid to ring the
bell by the m eat counter. Be nice. They can really help you out.
By the way, all this stuff is usually dirt cheap.
The other alternative is go kill your own.
oxbeast August 9th, 2007, 11:21 AM

Just ask at a ny butchery.
I used to buy the stuff all the time too feed m y R ottweilers.
Lots of W eight Lifters eat organs for the higher protein content as well.
Quite often you can get the organs before they have been frozen.
They norm ally have Kilo prices on the different types of Organ m eat.
Lastly som e t i m e s h u n t e r s d u m p t h e o r g a n s a l o n g t h e r o a d . I f y o u k n o w a n y h u n t e r s j u s t a s k t h e m .
Gerbil A ugus t 9t h, 2007, 07: 39 PM

Ask a friendly butcher. Just out of interest, I'm curious what you want the m for :p

Do you want them for target p ractice, stabing tests, stuff like that? Then you want a whole carcas a n d y o u s h o u l d l o o k f o r
wholesale bu tchers, slaughterhouses, if you want sm a l l a n i m a l s l o o k f o r e x o t i c p e t s t o r e s a n d s a y y o u r f e e d i n g a l a r g e s n a k e ,
they sell sm all frozen rodents for that purpose. As for the organs, what they said above.
WWII A ugus t 9t h, 2007, 09: 32 PM

A watermelon has the sam e consistency as the human head.
O n e b a g o f a p p l e s m a k e s i t a little hard to bayonet but once in, has the sam e f e e l i n g a s h u m a n b o d y m a s s .
A bag of squash and cucum bers can be used as the hum an legs for slashing and bayoneting.
3 apples in a clean pair of socks from a dollar store can b e u s e d a s t h e h u m an feet.
The best thing about it is that none of it arouses suspicison like at a meat plant also the fruits and vegetables are a whole
alots more healthy to eat and you can buy steak at the store to get your daily protein intake.
but really, I think you don't need to go to all of that excess because bayonet training is really sim p l e a n d b a s e d o n s i m ple
m echanics. Nothing of the fancy sort.
Keep it simple, soldier. ( K.I.S.S. ) and Do your Am erican duty to kill those arabic terrorists.
S e m per Fi, Do or Die, Gung Ho :cool:
Killian August 10th, 2007, 01:26 PM

Just out of interest, I'm curious what you want them for :p
I m ay have been misguiding. It's actually for experim ental abstract art. ;) A cattle heart in particular. And no, it's not for the ol'
in-out, in-out. :p
R e g a r d l e s s o f m y i n t e r e s t , t h e q u e s t i o n a n d a n s w e r s s e e m f o r u m productive. I appreciate the tim e and effort you a ll took to

answer m y question. The usages and alternative answers were thought provoking in the least.

I used to have a cata log that sold animal organs for dissection. They even sold h uman brains, which are, a las, m uch harder
a n d m o r e e x pensive to purchase nowa days. Th e scientific supply route is m ore expensive, but they com e preserved.
I used to have a cows heart once. I go t it from a girl in m y class after the 4th grade science fair. It drove m y m othe r crazy, so
it didn't stick around too long. I still blam e m y m o m f o r t h e d i s a p p e a r a n c e o f m y s h e e p b rain too :(
Ooh, the science fair... there are som e painful m e m o r i e s . S o m e o f u s d o n ' t h a v e a m echanical engineer for a father who can
hand build a clockwork pendulum out of wood. How's a kid with a m odel of the solar system m a d e o u t o f p l a y d o u g h s u p p o s e d
to com pete with THAT?!? In th e fifth grade he built a wo rking pipe organ, another first place, and in the sixth he had a working
m odel of a Hero's engine.
I don't let my bitterness affect m e too much. Now I just judge local and even the state science fair looking for kids to rip into
with faulty scientific m ethods and projects that look like they were done by their fathers.
I learned two things as a judge: 1, too m any girls do the "which laundry detergent works best" project witho ut adhering to any
d e c e n t e x p e r i m ental m e t h o d o l o g y , a n d 2 , g l i t z a n d g l a m or are the ways to win a science fair because the judges don't have
the tim e to read your 20 page report, a fabulous first im pression goes a long way. But I digress...

In C hinatown m arkets, you can get everything from ducks' tongues to rooster testicles. I've seen whole hogs' heads, pork
uterus, eyes, bladders, intestines, brains, you nam e it. If you're interested in dissection, you can pick up suckling pigs and
frogs for a lo t less than Carolina Supply.
nbk2000 August 14th, 2007, 01:13 AM

Also, corpora tions have used the college-level science fairs as fertile hunting grounds for ideas to steal from bright m inds
without the resources to sue them for it. :p
Hitech_Hillbilly August 15th, 2007, 01:23 AM

Not sure of your location, but cow hearts can be found in Walmart stores grocery section in the Sou th. They eat them down
here.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Kevlar Card - Heard of this Entry Tool?
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View Full Version : Kevlar Card - Heard of this Entry Tool?
themaxx August 16th, 2007, 12:17 PM

Yup, a Kevlar Card. A search on Google and on the forum turned up diddly, but it is difficult to search for as "Kevlar" and "Card" bring up any number of items.
I read about this in a British semi-professionally produced but kewl-aimed pamphlet back in the mid nineties. ("Wideboys" or "Wideboy Collection/Report" - any British
members remember this?) The Kevlar Card supposedly worked thus:
It was a credit-card sized piece of Kevlar, and being Kevlar, forced itself back into shape under enormous pressure. The theory was you bent it over, and stuck it in the jamb of
a door, be it a car door or badly-designed/very-old house door, and it would force itself straight again, acting much the same as a car-jack attack would on the door, forcing
the door apart.
Much damage would result so it's not elegant, but I've always been curious: did these things really exist? Has anyone heard of them? A car-jack in your pocket: I can think of
more than a few uses... ;)
WMD August 17th, 2007, 08:46 AM

Sounds like bullshit. Kevlar is usually produced as a fiber, is quite flexible and doesn`t have a shape memory. Sounds to me like a mix-up of shim cards (for slipping the latch)
and a vivid imagination.
hatal August 17th, 2007, 10:44 AM

I heard of locks wrapped in kevlar or polycarbons to withstand forces such as gunshot but "kevlar-card"? I don't get it ...
nbk2000 August 17th, 2007, 02:44 PM

I've seen large card shims made from some type of plastic, but definitely not Kevlar.
A.C.E. August 18th, 2007, 04:31 PM

How would you be able to bend it in the first place?
A bent object will typically straighten with a force similar to the one that was used to bend it. If it can exert force equal to a jack, you'd need a jack to bend it, and likewise if
you could bend it with your hands it would be about as strong as your hands.
nbk2000 August 18th, 2007, 09:03 PM

I know what he's talking about...an air-wedge.
http://www.awdirect.com/finditem.cfm?itemid=8294
An air bag that's often made of kevlar, and inflated by a hand-pump, to spread open car door frames, and can also be used, in a larger version, as a door-breaching tool.

On cars, locksmiths (or whoever else is using them) usually press one or two teflon wedges into place, then the air bag is folded in half and placed in the gap created. It is
inflated, and as the gap grows, the wedges are moved further in until there is enough room to fit in a proper sized wire tool that is able to reach the door lock.
This may be a viable method for door-breaching, but the kevlar air bag would have to be quite thin while still being able to stand up to high(ish) pressures (possibly in the 100-
200psi range?).
themaxx August 20th, 2007, 08:06 AM

Thanks, NBK.
An air-wedge... So there is some vague basis for it after all! :) One thing's for damn sure, it's not readily recognizable as a lock-picking tool in case of a search. It's looks more
like a gay sex toy. Oh, hey, so maybe it would lead to arrest after all! Not so safe so! :D
Thanks, all. I enjoyed all the speculation.
nbk2000 August 20th, 2007, 08:53 AM

From my copy of the Wide Boys book:
The Micra Card
This is simply a slightly over sized credit card style rectangle, (remember the spy films?) made of Kevlar. The Micra Card is simply pushed into the gap between the door and
the frame, at the point just above a door lock Kevlar is the material of which bullet proof vests are made, and it can force itself back into shape even under extreme pressure.
Once the Micra Card is inserted, it literally levers the lock bolt into the open position, allowing the door to open.
themaxx August 20th, 2007, 09:54 AM

That's it! Exactly what I remember! :eek: :D (Obviously I had forgotten some details. Like "Micra" card. Obviously a reference to Nissan Micras.)
Oh, I've come over all nostalgic. NBK, kewl-oriented or not, any chance I could have a copy of the Wide Boys book? (Only if you have it in PDF of course.) I think I threw out
mine years ago, and I'd like the nostalgia trip! :o
Thanks again.
PS: Is it bullshit, though?
WMD August 20th, 2007, 10:36 AM

It's tainted with bullshit. Mica cards are useful for pushing the door latch away on doors that haven't been deadlocked and feature no special protection measures. Useful to
have around. But there's no kevlar inside and they don't force themselves back into shape. You can take a look here (you have to scroll down though):
http://www.thelocksmithtrainingcompany.co.uk/ltcbypasstools.htm
nbk2000 August 20th, 2007, 09:29 PM

This is why I don't like looking things up for people...because it almost always leads to 'Gimme the whole thing' requests.
If I wanted to fulfill book requests, I'd be a librarian.
If you UTFSE, you'll find a link to an online copy...like I did.

crazywhiteguy May 8th, 2008, 08:17 PM

My dad used to own a similar little toy. It was a metal plate a bit bigger than a credit card with a sloped end on one side. The device was put into where the lock is known to
be. You hit the card with something heavy parallel to the wall. The little plate takes a chunk out of the door. If this is done two or three times you have enough access to the
lock that you can manually pull the bolt out of the way.
Merck August 28th, 2008, 02:39 PM

Just for the sake of discussion, I recently stumbled upon an interesting find. I was outside and being delayed by a locked door. I, as usual, attempted entry with what I had at
hand. In this case it was a plastic perforated hotel key commonly distrubuted by three star hotels on the East Coast. Approximately 2.5" by 4.5", perforated "key" code on the
thin half, twice as thick on the un-perforated half. The thin half bends nicely with enough to hold on to w/o tools (I've had great luck with a credit card type piece of plastic &
two pairs of pliers) to get on the slanted side of the bolt of a knob lock & exert the correct pressure.
I've also gotten lucky with a piece of either 18 awg or 16 awg solid (not stranded) steel wire doubled, bent to correct angle, and passed through the door jamb above and
below the (knob) lock. The timing & slight/sudden pressure needed on the door when pulling the wire I have yet to perfect but know this to be a viable method on several
commercial steel doors, which thankfully are slightly loose & have no pesky weather stripping. If the door is "loose" enough I find twisting the wire then doubling it helps in this
endeavor.
PYRO500 September 24th, 2008, 01:40 AM

If the culprit is a simple spring latch or deadlatch, you must make sure that the deadlatch (the small second piece that springs out on entrance locksets strikes) is not
depressed.
If the door opens inwards it is a simple affair: take a big screwdriver and pry the door back (most older doors are adjusted because they sag) and force the doors away from
the jamb with leverage, then with a smaller thin screwdriver ( with sharp tip) get a bite on the moving part of the latch and slide it back into the door, this will not work with
deadbolts however.
IriOfTheSnow September 24th, 2008, 02:48 AM

The common basic spring loaded door latch was once vulnerable to shimming, due to the bevel on the bolt-latch, which was necessary in order for the door to automatically
latch shut when the door was closed. The small and necessary tolerance gap between the door and the wall allowed for a shim or jig to exert force on this beveled edge, no
matter which direction the bevel faced (which of course was dependent on the direction in which the door opened and closed).
To defeat this exploit, modern door employ a simple metal plate with an angled bend extending in the direction the door opens/closed. This allows the bevel on the latch to
begin farther along the latch, meaning that the bevel is no longer exposed in the gap between the door and the wall. This means that the latch cannot be manipulated by a
perpendicular force as the bevel allowed. Simple and effective.
However, my idea is that if one had any access to the latch slot prior, one could insert a filler plate with a bit of sticky glue into the latch slot. If the filler is of proper size, then
when the latch engages the slot, the spring driven latch will not fully extend, and thus the bevel on the latch will not be hidden in the slot, and would once again be vulnerable
to manipulation by a shim or jig. Simple and effective.
All one would need to do is quickly and discretely insert a thick piece of cardboard with some sticky glue into the slot with one's finger during "business hours." The door would
close and seal almost perfectly normal, giving enough resistance to fool the owner, but the few fractions of an inch difference would compromise the security entirely.
Traditional shimming tricks finish the job.
Just a little gimmick I thought of.
Merck September 28th, 2008, 08:57 PM

Your second paragraph is a succinct explanation of a common defeat, and I thank you.
The screwdriver technique described can be enhanced through the use of two steel wedges in proximity of the bolt, though time consuming a wedge above and below a bolt at
equal depth prevents the metal frame or strike plate from twisting on the bolt while allowing access.
Metal frames are notorious for twisting when force is applied from only above or below, making things much more difficult.
The cordless grinder is a sacrifice fly in this area, or even a chopsaw, but when speed is more of a consideration than attention this approach deserves mention.

Or if you know the lock, often times the screws are extremely easy to locate and drill out from the reverse, even a glancing blow will allow the exterior knob to be pried off
and the latch manually manupulated (half moon for kiwkset and square for ezset/defiant etc cheapo weiser etc) often times the outside knobset can be pulled out half way
and the stem still used to open the lock.

I do find it funny that the USA seems so happy with these toy-like key-in-knob type locks.
Have any other UK members ever even seen one over here? We have nightlatches that you can do this to, and they are generally a lot tougher looking than the KiK things,
but we generally have multipoint locks with loads of steelwork coming out the edge, rather like a safe, or a big mortice lock on a wooden door.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > R espirators - which types are
best?
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wymanthescienceman August 23rd, 2007, 04:54 AM

Hi, I was hoping to get som e information about the types of respirators are the best when working with chem icals. I've done a
search of the forum and didn't really find anyth ing regarding things like respirators and thought it would be a good thread to
start about safety and the like.
I was thinking of distilling som e acids in the future and wanted to get a decent respirator that will handle organic vapors and
acid fum e s a long with NO 2. I would like to have one around just in case a flask was to bre a k , I w o u l d h a v e s o m e t h i n g t o s a v e
m e from g a s s i n g m yself.
I've done a bit of searching trying to find out what the benefits are for each type and foun d out that I m ost likely want at
m inimum a full facepiece m ask, I just don't know what a good b rand would be, one where filters aren't really expensive and
are easy to get.
So I was won dering what types any of you guys use and the cost of them . D o e s a n y b o d y k n o w o f a g o o d m ask that isn't too
expensive?
nbk2000 August 23rd, 2007, 07:42 AM

For a full-face, you can expect to pay a minim um of $100, plus $15-$30 per filter, though filters will last a long tim e if you're
not actually breathing through t h e m a n d k e e p t h e m ask in an air-tight container.
S C O TT (http://www.scotthealthsafety.com /airpu r.htm ) and MSA (http://www.msanortham erica.com /catalog/catalog500013.htm l)

are both excellent brands.
I've got one these manufacturers masks (not getting specific), it's worth about $200 (though I never pay retail :)), and it's
worth every penny. Filters cost an arm and a leg, but for what's intended for, and as rarely as I'd b e using it for that purpose,
a n d a s f a t a l a s a f u c k e d u p c h e a p f i l t e r would be...what's m o n e y ?
Be cheap with your toilet pape r, not with things intended to save your life or health. Spend the m oney to get top-quality
equipment.
If, instead of actually wearing a full-face during the process (which is really the best thing to do) you actually intend it for ONLY
escaping from the room , you can save yourself a LO T o f m o n e y b y b u y i n g s o m ething like this escape mouthpiece (http://
www.northsafety.com /TriggerW orkflow.aspx?Wo rkflowMo d u l e G U I D = a 3 c 3 b f 3 4 - f 5 0 0 - 4 5 a a - a 7 3 f -
13a246669a21&Alias=NSUS&SB_C ontentItem G u i d = b 5 5 f b 7 5 5 - d 4 a 7 - 4 0 d c - 8 e 7 6 -
f21a2d582782&KeepSession=True&ReuseToken=True&Tags:PC%20Tags:PC_ItemGuid=04cdb75e-b265-40 ba-bb31-
e0609ef49bf4), which is under $20.
W e a r i n g a S C U B A m a sk (like for diving) during the process, and having one of these arou nd your neck, would serve you well
enough to protect your eyes a nd lungs (if not your face) in case of an ex p l o d i n g f l a s k .
Oh, and quality glassware that's carefully check e d b e f o r e u s e g r e a t l y d e c r e a s e s s u c h r i s k s , a n d s o d o e s e n c l o s i n g t h e f l a s k i n

a heavy wood box to contain any acid splash.
TreverSlyFox August 23rd, 2007, 11:09 AM

How appropriate would a Military Gas Mask be with NBC filters?
If th ey would do the job you can buy them brand new for $30 or so. I just bought 2 New un-issued Israeli Military M-15 Gas
Masks with 2 NATO 40m m NBC Filters each for $29.95 apiece. The m ilitary m a s k s h a v e b i g g e r e y e p i e c e s , d r i n k i n g t u b e s a n d a
better voice am plifier then the civilian m o d e l .
I ' v e a l s o f o u n d a d d i t i o n a l s e a l e d N A T O 40m m NBC filters for $9.95 each instead of the no rm al $20-$25 range on the web.
nbk2000 August 23rd, 2007, 11:21 AM

Bad news, trevor...those jew gasm asks are very likely to be defective. W hy else would the jews get rid of them ?
The VAST m ajority of masks exported by the jews are defective or expire d, along with a lo t of the surplus filters.
You probably won't notice the difference with OC or chlorine, because of the high thresholds of action compared to the truly
lethal stuff like OPA's, but the y are defective in letting through a higher percentage of agent than they should.
ALL m asks and filters have a shelf-life, as the rubber deteriorates in the mask and the filters beco me saturated by air
diffusing in past the seals, or the neutralizing chemicals break d own.
If you need a mask, it's your LIFE on the line. Buy brand-new from Am erican or western european suppliers.
wymanthescienceman August 24th, 2007, 01:37 AM

W ow, I wasnt expecting them to be that m uch, but I guess when your life is on th e l i n e i t s b e s t t o h a v e s o m e t h i n g o n h a n d .
W hat I really wanted one for is pretty m uch what the escape mouthpiece is for, to be able to quickly escape when som ething
goes awry.
I wasn't really planning on having it ON the whole time, just by my side, as the glassware I was planning on using is all ground
glass and teflon joints, no worry for leaks unless breakage occurs. For one it would probably use up the filter faster and that
would get expensive.
But then aga in I would probably need one anyway for when I had to clean it up or get som ething o ut of the room, p ut a fire
out, etc. I think I might just save up a few m ore bucks and get a full facepiece m ask, but get a mouthpiece for now until I can
afford one.
One quick OT question:

I recently purchased a few RBF's and was wondering if they would be OK to put un der vacuum , higher than 29". They are Pyrex
a n d C h e m G l a s s b r a n d s , b u t a c o u p l e o f t h e 2 0 0 0 m l Pyrex ones have tiny bubbles in the glass, there aren't any cracks or stars
or anything, just the tiny bubbles. They are used, probably pretty old but in otherwise great shape, clean and clear. Should I
just risk it and put them under vacuum to test them? Like vacuu m distill water or som ething if I find they hold up to just the
vacuum?
nbk2000 August 24th, 2007, 02:02 AM

A m a s k , t o b e effective, either needs to be on your face (safest) or around your neck. Having it in a pouch on your hip or on
the table isn't going to help you a bit.
Regarding glassware, pulling a vacuum is the o nly way to be sure.
All g lassware has tiny air-bubbles in them s o m ewhere. As long a s the bubbles are tiny and do NOT connect to either surface of
the glass, then they're usually O K.
LibertyOrDeath August 24th, 2007, 07:22 AM

I have the M95 by Micronel Safety. (Lo oking at NBK's link, I now see the sam e mask is offered by Scott, so I suppose Scott
bought out Micronel.) It's a fine m ask -- tight-fitting, yet comfortable.
I didn't buy m y m ask for explosives m anufacture but sim ply because I think every hom e a r s e n a l n e e d s a g a s m a s k a n d s o m e
spare filters. If your home is ever raided and you want to m ake a stand, it's im portant to be aware that the pigs W I L L g a s y o u .
A mask is essential for such a scenario. (Not th at I expect to be raided, but this country IS becom ing a police state....)
H e r e a r e s o m e more things to consider:
(1) If you we ar glasses and aren't using contact lenses, you'll need to get a prescription lens insert for the m a s k a n d h a v e a n
optician mak e lenses for it. Ordinary glasses can't be worn with a gas m ask that covers only your face, since the seal will be
broken in the tem ple area.
(2) If you ha ve a beard, that will likely affect the gas mask's seal.
(3) To check the seal of the m ask, put it on without a filter attached and then put your hand over the open intake that the
filter would norm ally screw into. Then try to breath. You should feel the m ask get pulled inward by the suction.
(4) I'm not sure about this -- maybe NBK or som e o n e e l s e w h o k n o w s m o r e t h a n I d o c a n fill us in -- but once the m a s k h a s
b e e n e x p o s e d t o e n o ugh vapors during a nitration or whatever, it may be too com p r o m i s e d t o b e r e l i e d u p o n s a f e l y i n t h e
future. I know that my mask can turn just about any chem ical warfare agent, but I honestly don't know its capabilities with
resp ect to NO2 and so forth.
nbk2000 August 24th, 2007, 09:50 AM

Filter can be safely used until saturation IF the gas (like chlorine) has sufficient warning properties (odor/eye irritation) to warn
of filter breakthrough well below the injury threshold.
NOx is not one of the s e g a s e s .
Y o u c a n u s e a n o t h e r c h e m i c a l t h a t d o e s h a v e a d e q u a t e warning at a level below that of the insidio us chemical, spray that

about, and that will warn of filter break through.
S o m ething like amyl acetate, or a m alodorant (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6242489.htm l) like a mercaptan, that is

essentially harmless, but definitely noticeable.
( W h i l e u s i n g G o o g l e t o l o o k f o r m alodorants, I saw som eone referred to them as 'Illum inati-strength stink bombs'. :D)
wymanthescienceman August 24th, 2007, 03:43 PM

I'll keep that in m ind NBK, m ake sure I either have it on or at le ast around my neck when working with anything tha ts
p o t e n t i a l l y d a n g e r o u s . T h e m ain thing I was worried about were NO x f u m e s a n d m a y b e c h lorine. I'm g o i n g t o b e a s s a f e a s
possible and I hope it will never happen, I never want to see ugly brown gas.
I was actually looking at the m a s k y o u suggested Liberty, made by Scott. The price was around $155 which isn't so bad so I
m ay get that or the M98.

T h e c o m pany where I used to work only a few months a go uses a very la rge number of full face respirators. The people who
wear them are generally idiots, so they sustain all m a n n e r o f a b u s e b e s i d e s t h e i n t e n d e d a b u s e t h e y a r e p u r c h a s e d f o r . W e g o
through about 50 full face respirators a week. Yes, thats a lot, and I got to know and love our brand. Abou t 250 workers use
the full face, and everyone ge ts a half face if they need to use it or not just in case.
W hen you burn through that many respirators, you dont get expensive ones, you get cheap, cheap, dirt ch e a p o n e s . M y
company buys only the cheapest, and it shows. Originally we were using a 3M model and filters, but there is a huge class
action law suit brought against m y parent com p a n y a n d 3 M b e c a use the dust filters contain asbestos. Apparently asbestos is
bad for you when you breathe through it 8 hours a day for 20 ye ars.
Alon g came AO Safety and offered to replace all of the em ployees current full face and ha lf face free of charge. Fit testing was
d o n e b y A O p e o p l e , t h e c o m p a n y e n f o rced its strict clea n shaven policy, they even stocked the nurses station with shaving a n d
razo rs. A good seal can only be m aintained with smooth skin, even stubble can cause a m a s k t o n ot seal properly. AO u s e d
the full hoods with sm oke and sweet odorants. Anybody caught with an old 3M respirator after the change would be punished!
By far the m o s t c o m m on problem was the rubber washe r diaphrams inside the filter ports would po p out so the filter would not
insert properly, or the exhalation one way port rubber diaphragm would fall out, thus air can bypass the filter. The n e x t m o s t
c o m m on problem is the seal around the clear eyepiece would fail causing the glass to fall out (the windshield if you will). These
cannot be repaired, they are perm a n e n t l y d a m a g e d .
S o m ehow the AO Safety respirators were even worse than the 3M. Lets compare price: The bulk rate em p l o y e e s p a i d f o r t h e s e
was about $80 for the 3M and $65 for the AO Safety. No, the em p l o y e e s d o n t p a y f o r t h e s e i f t h e h a v e a d a m a g e d o n e , o n l y
if they do som ething stupid. No, you cant get that price retail unless you b u y 5 0 n e w o n e s a w e e k , a n d g o t h r o u g h 1 5 c a s e s o f
filters.
Initially we had a bad batch of AO Safety full fa ce. The m odels we used have a crank on the back that tightens the straps. It
strip ped very easily. Many of the glass windshields popped out of these with very little use . We were replacing a few hundred a
week.
I love truth in the company. You never hear it from the top, but I excel in piecing fact from rum or and tracking down sources.
A O S a f e t y w a s h a r d p r e s s e d t o m e e t t h e i r d e m a n d b e c a u s e o f s o m e a s i a n f l u g o i n g a r o u n d i n C hina, the b ird flu I think is
popular over there. O ur batch was supposed to go to them . Yes, thats right, these low quality, actually defective, fu ll face were
destined for a crappy third world country to be gotton rid of. The company my father works for sells it defective products to
Mexico. This is the American way!
Before the company switched they did try out som e other m odels. They tried getting repair parts for the m asks, it didnt work.
They tried some better brands (m ore expensive) and they just cost too much. They decided to get the cheapest possible
b e c a u s e t h e e m p l o y e es would just destroy them anyway.
I h a v e u s e d t h e s e , a n d I h a v e u s e d s o m e of the high quality masks, actually quitea few in my day. I can tell you from
experience that you get what you pay for. A m o r e e x p e n s i v e m a sk will fit better, it will be m ore comfortable to wear, it will last
long er, and m ost im portant of all, it will keep you safer. The same goes for filters. For gods sake get the right KIND of filter for
the chem icals you expect to be exposed to. A dust filter will not stop any chemica l agent. I can't tell you how m a n y e m p l o y e e s
working in one of our hazardous chemical areas were still using dust filters. Respirators also do not protect you in a low oxygen
environm ent! You need a forced air m odule, or breathable air line to help in that kind of environment.
Speaking of forced air, this is not nece ssarily a cheaper route, but it can save on the cost of filters. Many advanced m o d e l s o f
resp irators can be connected to air com pressors that deliver fresh air at regulated breathing pressures. The air source com e s
from s o m eplace clean, so you can disregard filters entirely. It might even be possible to cheap out and use a painters hood
with forced air, I have seen these, but I dont rem e m b e r if they are inexpensive.
nbk2000 August 26th, 2007, 10:30 AM

I've seen supplied-air hoods that are nothing more than a face piece of clear acetate with a TYVEK hood, intended for painters.
Pretty cheap, though how durable could it possibly be?
A local electronics surplus store (ran by arabs :rolleyes: ) has a case of full-body vinyl suits with su pplied air hoses, that were
used by workers in the nuclear-reactor plants.
Only $12 for a set. :)
That'd be the shit to have for working with anything NBC , fuck a gas-m a s k !

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Finishing Metals; Firearms & Knives
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First of all I would like to thank sincerely the uploaded & availability of the AGI videos as they have been really great: enjoyable & informative.
Unfortunately the bluing & re-finishing videos (often others) simply made mention of purchasing chemicals from Brow nell's. The instructor did make mention of various acids in a
Bluing video (& Parkerizing). He mentioned most common acids but no ratio or proportions. {Simply, "buy it from Brownell's". Well, I have a fairly w ell stocked lab I can access
and w ant to really learn this as an art.}
I hunted for further information....it was VERY tough to find! It seems that most of the information w as kept quite for the purposes of selling pre-packaged products. My
question, therefore has to do with other's experience or know ledge of what chemicals & proportions have been used in Parkerizing and bluing.
I did finally find a site that made mention of the use of nickel nitrate in the formulation of the green in military Parkerizing. But it's been quite a tough thing to find really in
depth chemical or conceptual information.
Does anyone have any additional information or tips on w here I could get this information? The USPO turned up little in the specifics of WHAT chemicals and proportions to use.
The techniques were outlined in the patents but the videos actually did a better job explaining the "nuts & bolts" approach.
I wanted to start metal re-finishing both knives and guns and have quite a bit of materials to do so but I need more information that I suppose are trade secrets. ANY help or
direction w ould be deeply appreciated.
Cobalt.45 August 24th, 2007, 02:09 PM

Last year I lifted this from http://www .finishing.com/index.html
"I read with interest all about steel bluing at your forum and noted that it looks like a very simple and effective bluing method w idely known among russian hobbists is not
known in US. Recently I have nicely reblued my C96 Mauser pistol using this method.
"This is a hot process so not suitable for double barreled guns. The chemical needed is the only one - natrium nitrat (NaNO3, very chip, sold in flakes, used in agriculture, also
known as Selitra). The all you need are: 1. preferably new 10 dollar nichrome spiral type electric heater of 1kWatt. 2. suitable size metal pot (I used half of 1 gallon can cut w ith
scissors). 3. piece of cardboard or old plyw ood 1x1 meter. Put flakes into pot and heat untill flakes melt (approx 320-350C). There are almost no fumes if pot was clean
enough. When flakes became a fluid add more if required to top over your work. Parts to be blued must be stripped of old blue and polished. It is not required to do chemical
degreasing, just whip parts with cloth wetted in Acetone and dip them into hot bath and w atch (I noted that even not thouroughly cleaned parts, with fingerprints also come out
nicely as fat gets burned away easily). In 3-5 minutes they turn to be of nice dark blue color, the longer the darker. When done, get parts out "-SNIP-
I realize this is not what you asked for, but maybe there is something to the process cited.
In any event, the site has a good deal of info on bluing metal. I used "hot bluing solution" as a search and got many hits.
The site says they have archived over 40,000 Q&A's on metal finishing.

....this is a VERY good start off! Thanks!
The films were very interesting in that a "real rust blue" resists rust but is labour intensive. Well that's not a big deal but modern weapons manufacturers don't do that any more
(for the most past).
The w eb page has VERY interesting info in it. The idea of refinishing stainless steel knives that are blackened from the manufacturer has always interested me.
This also leads to a very interesting issue of a blade that is considered to be "poisoned". Indonesian Kris knives use arsenic I am told in their forging (I don't know this for a fact
at all) but I have heard that they were often termed as being poisoned (?). The area leads to various subjects as off-shoots.
This is an art as w ell as a mechanical technique and I am really interested in learning all I can about it.
monkeyboy August 24th, 2007, 10:12 PM

I don't know if you've got The Modern Gunsmith, but vol 2 has some good stuff about bluing, chapter 16, pg 209:
http://rapidshare.com/files/51110472/The_Modern_Gunsmith_v2.pdf
Vol 1? OK:
http://rapidshare.com/files/51109744/The_Modern_Gunsmith_V1.pdf
A short section can be found in this book, but he gives some good info on making containers & ovens that might be helpful:
http://rapidshare.com/files/51106968/GUNSMITHING_AND_TOOL_MAKING_BIBLE_by__H._HOFFMAN.p df
I was curious about the poisoned blade, so I did a little research. I couldn't find anything other than references to the video game "Final Fantasy" and the "Crysknife" used in
the book Dune, you're not making 'em from sandworm teeth, are you?
Also found this on Wikipedia:

"However, the slashing w ound made by kris is terrible. The edge of the blade "danced" in the w ound, and left the tatters of dead flesh, which began to rot. This is the reason
why all sinuous blades were considered inhuman all over Europe"
MMMM, rotting flesh. Not poison, but still pretty nasty!
In my search I found this w ebsite:

http://ww w.sharpblades.net/
Which I thought w as pretty good...

Thanks very much for the info. I certainly don't mean to go off topic in my ow n query but to address that question:
Actually I was at a gun show (so consider the source) many years back and someone was selling his collection of Kris knives from Indonesia (Java, etc) and made a comment
to the effect of "these were forged with an arsenic salt, so I keep these behind glass and these aren't", etc, etc, etc. I asked what he meant and he started talking about the
whole poison blade issue....
Would that be enough to produce any effect? I doubt it but it could result in some infection due to the course & open folding of the steel and the remnants of foreign material in
the folds. That concept, in itself opens a whole subject of poison retention on a blade. Anyone could simply dip a knife in poison but for it to RETAIN the poison...that's a trick!
Frankly I w ould like that (poison) to be on the tip and not on the edge to prevent self-inflicted issues from arising during a dispute. It's easy to get a little cut on oneself while
doing what needs to be done but to stab there needs to be a pointed effort (that was bad, I'm sorry....).
Frankly it sounded like BS but there are some strange things in this w orld and I don't know everything so I keep an open mind unless the BS is too much to ignore.

Arsenic in the alloy from w hich the blade is forged? Because of the size of the required lethal dose of arsenic, and its being present in an alloy w hich surely w ould not dissolve on
contact with flesh, there is no way that that could kill. Besides, arsenic in an alloy would make it brittle, and unsuitable in a knife-blade
chemdude1999 August 26th, 2007, 02:15 AM

C.O.P.:
Sounds like a bit of BS.
Arsenic is more of a cumulative poison. Also, note that arsenic is highly overrated. It takes a long time to do any damage. The liver can handle moderate doses of it by breaking
it dow n. Of course, this is taxing on the organ and does have an effect. It's just not a overwhelming system shutdow n.
Pentavalent arsenic and its more toxic derivative, trivalent arsenic, are slowly but completely metabolized by the liver. Basically, they are methylated into a harmless metabolite
that is excreted in the urine. The majority is eliminated in about a week with the rest taking several weeks to evacuate.
Having said all that, arsenic is still toxic (especially the trivalent form). It is considered a carcinogen and a teratogen (birth defects). So, unless you have the patience of Job and
really hate somebody, it's not practical.
If the story of the blades is true, there wouldn't be nearly enough residual arsenic to do anything. The cutting action would be far more effective in killing. :p
On the original topic, many of the new "paint" finishes are outstanding. I have one on a DSA FAL and it is very nice. If you need traditional blueing and such, Brownell's DOES
have some excellent products. But, I do understand your want of knowledge.
nbk2000 August 26th, 2007, 09:33 AM

I could see some of the arsenic oxidizing in the surface of the blade, and then that arsenic being deposited in a w ound.
Not enough to kill in of itself, but the arsenic deposited in the wound could cause local tissue necrosis, resulting in death by septic shock at some later date.
Charles Owlen Picket August 26th, 2007, 10:38 AM

Please don't get me w rong it DID sound like BS to me but I am really trying to find source on this...I'll tell you what I heard: that the blades WERE VERY brittle and that was
why their design was such (if you've seen Javanese Kris they are a bit strange) that they utilized a technique to thrust and not cut. In fact their brittleness w as their hallmark -
that is well documented.
The above sited concept of necrosis at wound site appears to be right on target. As I certainly don't men to imply that they w ere poisoned to the extent that w ould commonly
be associated with a "poisoned arrow" (i.e. instant incapacitation). The concept is intriguing to me however.
User32 August 29th, 2007, 06:05 PM

I didn't include an actual link in the AGI Bluing videos but did mention blindhogg.com for more information on making your own salts.
http://ww w.blindhogg.com/homemadesalts.html
More information on other refinishing ideas can also be found here :
http://ww w.blindhogg.com/refinishing.html

@ USER32
I pride myself in finding things on the net and in general. How ever that w as a site I had not seen.
A sincere thank you!
I am now in the process of doing some lightweight experiments and w ill post some results. The "paint on" finishes are not all that bad. It's not really my cup of tea as the real
thing is more of the hobby that gets my interest but I saw a Remington 700 that someone did w ith the bake-on product and it looked pretty good.
However.....I saw an older Colt Trooper MKIII and Series 70 w / their high end blue and - brother - that is some bluing! The secret I am told is in the prep and the physical
tanks, etc. The chems are not tough for me to get so I know I can put out a decent product if I put my mind to it and get more and more study materials....... they are much
appreciated.
User32 August 30th, 2007, 09:25 AM

80 percent of any finish out come is metal preparation, no matter what finish you are using. Metal prep is very important when you start getting into finishes like Nitre Blue or
Acid Blue. They aren't as forgiving at hiding imperfections as the spray on coatings are.
I've used Brownells Gun Kote on FALs, AR-15s and a few 1911s. It holds up rather w ell if you take the time to prep the metal surface correctly.
Any traces of oil or dirt and the finish will chip in that area.
You can use a toaster oven for baking 1911 size pistols and parts. I'm finishing up a Springfield mil spec w ith the Matte Black GunKote in a cheap
toaster oven picked up at a local store on clearance. It's w orking rather w ell.
Great results are very possible without spending tons of money on equipment.
chemdude1999 August 30th, 2007, 01:27 PM

Excellent find, User32. I think that might be my next ripping project. I'll post it on Rapidshare if I do.
I have Gun Kote on the FAL I mentioned above. After a particularly grueling shooting session, I took the gas-plug and a few other small parts to work and sonicated them. The
paint did discolor a bit, but overall held up quite w ell to the harsh cleaning.
C.O.P. good luck w ith your bluing projects. I would recommend w earing a heavy apron and a face shield when you move on to big stuff. The added safety allows you to
concentrate on your product instead of a little chemical drip on your face. I spilled a bit of sulfuric on my finger at work the other day. I was making a batch of reagent. I tried to
finish it but had to run to the sink with searing pain. Gloves from now on. :o

Oh yes! I learned quite a long time back my skin is not armor.
At this point I have some information indicating that the ingredient in green WWII-era parkerizing (the real green parkerizing) is nickel nitrate. I may be able to do some
experimenting this weekend and will post results if I honestly believe that the results have merit beyond a simple green finish.
I have also done some anodizing to clean up an alloy frame on a shooter handgun (also sodium hydroxide but using high current low voltage current, etc) and the results look
great. The question is; will it last? I have found that there exists a chemical touch-up for scratches for blue/black alloy frames that uses selenium dioxide. It's not cheap (500gr
costs about $80 but lasts a Hell of a long time) but w orks well if the aim is to clean up a piece that has but a few scratches and complete strip down anodizing is unwarranted.
I can only say that those of you w ho have contributed to the common knowledge-base; a very sincere "thank you"! When you guys post leads or whole re-prints, that stuff is
GOLD!
Cobalt.45 September 29th, 2007, 05:55 PM

This is a link to the page at americangunsmith.com that has several videos on applying different types of finishes to firearms:
http://ww w.americangunsmith.com/index.php?id= 22
Gunjack October 3rd, 2007, 03:31 PM

Nitrite black:
According to various authors(gunsmiths) a temper-black can be obtained in a few minutes by immersing the parts in a flux composed of 80parts caustic soda and 20 parts
potassium nitrite,then washed and oiled.
The coating is durable and liable to after-rust.
I've tried it and it w orks.
Caustic soda brow n:
Alkaline baths with added oxidants for browning soon lose their effectiveness, as the carbonate formed by absorption of atmospheric carbonic acid hinders the oxidation of the
metal.
The products of reduction and decomposition accumulate, so that the oxidising power of the bath is soon exhausted.
By adding slaked lime to the bath the caustic alkali is continuously regenerated,promoting oxidation,and the formation of carbonate,with its harmfull accompaniments,
restrained.
Most inorganic oxidants can be used,such as dichromates,permanganates,nitrates,peroxides and chlorates, also aromatec nitro compounds.
According to concentration and nature of metal deep black to bronze-and brass-coloured coatings can be obtained.
Mode of working:
Polished iron parts can for instance be coloured black in 20 to 30 minutes, according to their size,in a bath of 100 parts of 33% caustic soda lye, heated to 120-130C to which 3
parts of nitre can be carried on continuously.
Pre-pickling the parts in a mineral acid,e.g. hydrochloric acid, deepens the colour.
By increasing the concentration of the lye and the amount of nitre,and heating to 180-200C polished iron parts can be coloured in about 5 minutes.
After removing from the bath,rinse with water,then with lime solvent,e.g. diluted acetic acid, to get rid of adhering lime, then several times with hot water,dry and finish w ith
linseed oil or lacquer.
The advantage of the process is complete preservation of the surface and polish by the lime addition.
The oxide coating does not peel off.
It is found that a freshly prepared bath does not start and act so easily and thoroughly as one containing reduction products of oxidants used, such as nitre,potassium
permanganate,potassium or sodium dichromate,etc.,this is,nitrite,manganite,chromate,etc.
If small quantities of such reduction products are added from the start,the colouring action sets in at once and produces deeper shades,an effect which can be further reinforced
by the addition of small quantities of an iron salt,e.g. ferric nitrate.
I hope this helps.
Charles Owlen Picket October 4th, 2007, 10:07 AM

Thank you; it does help!
Often in receivers made of higher nickel content, there appears to be a "purple" hue to the blue. With those techniques mentioned above - I am assuming there would be a
difference in hue and color depending on the alloy, etc...(?)
- Having tried these techniques what were the result & your observations regarding coloration and strength/resistence to color removal?
Gunjack October 4th, 2007, 05:02 PM

The color does not fade.
The strength/resistance to color removal is excellent.
Even after years.
Even when I gave it a good w ork over with steel wool.
This process produces one of the deepest black colors even for different alloys I've tried.
The coloration took place in only 10 minutes.
Then I had a pitch black color on the pieces.
It is easy to check the color by moving the pieces from the blueing tank to a bucket of water where you can check the color.
If there not black enough you can put them back in the tank to get a darker color.
But do not tough them by hand.
If there are spots that do not color well you can rub them with a cotton sw ab using only the blueing mixture on the swab.
And the color does vary from alloy to alloy...

You can even color some stainless steel but you will not get the deepest black you might want.
The stainless will only become a dark grey colored piece.
This was the best process I've found after I did about a year of trail and error research.
If you want to know more, please let me know.
Genocyde October 4th, 2007, 06:26 PM

I'm a TIG w eldor by trade, and do alot of hobby blacksmithing. Salts are commonly used in the heat treating processes, although I am not aware of any arsenic salts used in the
process. Potassium nitrate the most common used. It is possible I suppose, but the thought of any residual arsenic being in the alloy is ridiculous.
Here is a very good source of information on the w eb.
http://ww w.anvilfire.com/
Charles Owlen Picket October 4th, 2007, 09:55 PM

I truly appreciate this input. I am going to try out some of this material on various ferris alloys and post my experiments. The fact that SS is acted upon by the above technique
is fantastic.
Gunjack October 5th, 2007, 01:03 PM

The greater the amount of iron in the stainless steel, the darker the color.
You can check with a magnet.
Bugger October 6th, 2007, 05:02 AM

That would probably be due to "passivation", by formation of a layer of Fe3O4 (ferrous ferrite, magnetite), in which some of the Fe may be replaced by Ni(II), Ni(III), or Cr(II),
or Cr(III) . Unlike Fe2O3 and FeO(OH), the common components of rust on iron, which is porous and flaky and non-adhesive, Fe3O4 is impervious, not admitting further oxygen
to react with the Fe.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Non retroreflective number plates
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View Full Version : Non retroreflective number plates
powium September 7th, 2007, 08:28 PM

It has come to my attention that all Australian and most European (most likely US as well) number plates are constructed of a retroreflective base, usually in white color, and
non retroreflective lettering. I think the way they accomplish this is by embedding tiny glass spheres in the paint.
This makes it very easy to take photos of number plates from long distances. Also, when you're driving at night, people driving behind you can easily identify your number
plate because it's being lit up by their headlights.
One of the reasons they make number plates retroreflective is because of speed cameras, a major annoyance for drivers in Australia. Some of the newer cameras are very
devious, using an infrared camera/flash so you don't know you've been caught. These number plates work magically for the IR flash, reflecting the flash to the source (the
camera) and providing a huge level of contrast between the background and the lettering.
If you've got some spare time, take a photo of your car at night with a flash and you'll see what I mean.
My theory is that if you paint over your number plate with a matte paint, you'll eliminate it's retroreflective properties, reducing chances of your number plate being
photographed by a camera/flash setup. It will be calibrated for retroreflective plates, and when it flashes your plate and gets a fraction of the expected level of light, the picture
will be illegible.
I've applied this theory to my own number plates, painting the background matte black, and the numbers white (not reflective though). By day, this looks just like a regular
number plate (it is possible to order this color scheme legally from the issuing authority, they just make it reflective) - but at night it is very difficult to photograph.
I apologise if this is too far off topic, but I thought it might be of interest to the scientifically literate. Any thoughts/feedback most welcome.
monkeyboy September 8th, 2007, 12:45 AM

Where I'm from it's illegal. A friend did it to his plates, as part of a ground up restoration of his hot rod, not criminal intent at all. Made it look real nice, spent quite a bit of
effort in tracking down the right colors. A cop was behind him & noticed the plate, while equipped with the requisite bulb, did not reflect correctly. They almost impounded the
car. It's almost on a par with counter fitting money. I think the ticket was around $500.
Bugger September 8th, 2007, 06:58 AM

How about varnishing your number plates with a matte polyurethane or epoxy varnish? That should greatly reduce their reflectance.

There are several issues with this. If we coat the plate with something easily visible, you'll get caught. In the UK there are several firms making plates that are of dubious
legality that don't reflect. However, using one is an offence. Plate covers are illegal here, too. As for making it not reflect so it is too dark, try it with a digital camera at night,
then turn the brightness and contrast up in Photoshop, and odds are you will see the details easily enough.
A clever way around this it to make the entire plate reflect, black as well. Doing this means that cops can't even lighten the image to get the details, because all they get is a
bright white square, and, when they shine a light on it at night, it still works and looks normal at a glance, or if they are following you. There are a number of commercially
available products to do this in the UK.
Of course, it's fairly moot now here, because there is a trend towards using passive detection from regular video camera systems, combined with OCR. If you can read it, they
can. Of course, at night, you never see them, so odds are it doesn't work after dark! But since it's got nothing to do with road safety, and is all about the income, they don't
seem to bother solving that issue.
tmp September 9th, 2007, 01:43 AM

It's illegal to use a plate cover in Maryland. A friend, in his late 70s, had
called the local pork to report vandalism on his car. Barney Fife took down
the report(useless DUMBASS !) and then proceeded to harass my friend for
having a cover over his license plate. At least the pig was honest about it
when he told my friend that it interferes with red-light cameras. Now they're
talking about the speed limit cameras for Baltimore. Money-grubbing
politiicians know no limits to stealing taxpayers' hard-earned income !
My personal view is that I want something to DESTROY the camera at a

considerable distance ! I've been mulling over a few non-noisy methods ! :D
grayssk September 9th, 2007, 09:56 PM

Of course, it's fairly moot now here, because there is a trend towards using passive detection from regular video camera systems, combined with OCR. If you can read it, they
can. Of course, at night, you never see them, so odds are it doesn't work after dark! But since it's got nothing to do with road safety, and is all about the income, they don't
seem to bother solving that issue.
Couldn't you defeat passive cameras with some ultra-bright IR LEDs? Just mount them in a ring around the plate, and wire them through the battery, the way idiots wire
ground lighting. If you pump out enough light, it should overwhelm the CCD in the camera, which will pick up the IR, but will be completely invisible to all pigs giving your car a
once-over.
monkeyboy September 9th, 2007, 10:04 PM

My personal view is that I want something to DESTROY the camera at a
considerable distance ! I've been mulling over a few non-noisy methods ! :D
You might find these helpful:

How to ZAP a Camera:
Using Lasers to Temporarily Neutralize Camera Sensors
http://www.naimark.net/projects/zap/howto.html
Researchers develop prototype system to thwart unwanted video and still photography
http://architectures.danlockton.co.uk/2006/06/19/researchers-develop-prototype-system-to-thwart-unwanted-video-and-still-photography/
My infrared-veil
http://forums.makezine.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=89&Focus=338#Comment_338
Sniping the security

http://www.c-h-a-o-s.com/2007/08/11/sniping-the-security/
Laser Flashlight Hack

http://www.instructables.com/id/EWM4YR2F4WY1LQ2/?ALLSTEPS

Setting the IR LED's to pulse in a random pattern of varying brightnesses would play hell with the cameras, as it'd be trying to adjust it's gain to deal with the last frame, which
is no longer the same as the current frame, etc.

I actually came up with this a few days ago whilst brain-storming. Another one I saw somewhere was the "FlasHat" - a simple circuit responds to the camera flash by firing
another flash back at the camera, or, for preventing photos of celebs at the wrong time, the flash fires downwards, lighting the face, especially the nose and cheekbones and
upper lip, whilst not having any effect on the wearers eyes. I'm not having any luck with finding it online, though. There are dozens of false hits, and several things like it,
though, such as at the bottom of this page http://www.we-make-money-not-art.com/archives/009552.php
and this page http://www.textually.org/picturephoning/archives/2004/11/006109.htm has some fairly random, though interesting ideas, though who thinks any paparazzi will
turn on the setting that allows the privacy badge to protect its wearer?
Since the shutter time on the camera is going to be at least a millisecond, it is actually fairly easy to react to it and counterattack at the speed of light.
Personally, I'd combine several systems, so that it fires an IR flash back at the flashgun in the static camera, and a white light flash downwards at the numberplate. This would
effectively jam anything at all, since the IR will be invisible to the guy behind, and the flash heading downwards would be covered by the static camera's flash. I would also
use a coating that claimed to reflect more light at the camera, but I would apply it partially.
To see why partial use is your friend, write down something like a license number on a bit of paper. Now, try to erase it with the same pen without making holes. It takes a lot
of work, and you can probably still, just about, work out what was written. Now, do it again, but write another letter over the letters - try changing an H into an N. One stroke,
and it is already impossible to tell what the original was. Do this with your plate, and outline one letter so it is entirely impossible, under flash, to determine the original letter.
Do this to a few digits, then wipe the entire mass of one of them, and two others. (Use your head in your choices) Now, your plate is impossible to "make" from any one
photo, even if they play with the contrast, even if the coating is wearing off a little, etc. and also it is a passive backup for when your flash fails to fire because a spider made
its home in the sensor!
You would need twin power systems, since the cameras take two photos (in the UK at least) 0.25 seconds apart, and your speed is worked out from the distance moved in
that time from the (extra) white lines on the road.
There are two other systems in use, too. They use no radar, or laser, as my detectors have never yet tripped as I've driven through them. One looks different to a regular
GATSO, but is clearly recognisable, and has just 3 lines painted on the road.
The other, and the most serious one to find out about, is the "Talivan" which is a mobile speed trap system that the police hide in the back of a van on the side of the road. It
generally sees you before you see it. As far as I know, it uses video evidence, and is totally passive. However, I've never worked out what it keys off. It might be twin
rangefinding cameras, but that's pure conjecture.

I think the one with the 3 lines is a camera that detects when a moving car obscures the lines, and calculates the speed based on that, using optical motion sensing to turn on.
I've seen myself a lot of inks that are transparent in IR, but otherwise visible to the naked eye.
You could have two layers for your plate, one the actual plate number (visible to the eye), and the other a transparent layer of IR opaque ink, that would do the H/N obscure
like JC described. :)

There is an aerosol spray for license plates that can block out the cameras. One product is available from phantomplate.com. I found this youtoob video of a Fox News
broadcast where they had the police test these products:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_e2BC_kXis
It looks like the spray worked the best, beating the plastic plate covers. The spray causes a high gloss finish that causes the license plate portion of a photograph to be
overexposed when a camera flash is used. This is the opposite of the principle powium suggested. The spray actually increases the amount of light bouncing back to the
camera
I am surprised the police let the journalists film them testing these products. Technically, according to the report, these things are not illegal (yet).
Now all I need is one of those traffic light changers firetrucks use :)
The spray still does not address light reflectivity for reading by human eyes. The spray might make seeing the plate even easier at long distances if it even more reflective. You
can always put your plate in the back window. I dont know how legal that is, but it will be away from the direct beam of headlights, and thus harder to read.
monkeyboy September 20th, 2007, 12:53 AM

On a semi-related note:
A while back I ran across a little package that you strap to the bottom of your motor cycle, to trigger inductive light sensors. It appears to just be a small electro-magnet,
although some are just a couple rare earth magnets.
So that got me thinking...
Are the red light cameras hooked in to the inductive sensor?

If they are, couldn't you wind a couple coils & glue them to some plywood. Then lay them across the corner of the sensor & fire it at the appropriate time to cause the camera
to go off?
How many pictures of nothing do you think it would take for them to get the point?
Any suggestions on how to do this for speed cameras?

Now all I need is one of those traffic light changers firetrucks use :)
Well if you really want one here's the plans for building your own for under $20 as opposed to trying to buy one (if you can) for $340.
The "DIrtY MIRT"

http://www.i-hacked.com/content/view/176/44/
What's one more FEDERAL Offense, right ? :rolleyes:
Mr Science September 27th, 2007, 01:12 AM

^ I have a feeling the one you posted Toggle would work better, but here are several traffic light-themed videos I discovered.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/496319/change_traffic_lights_with_a_universal_remote/
^Turning a TV remote into a MIRT
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5307919148544017291
^Doing the same thing, but by pressing the walk-button in a special combination.
And I learned at one point these actually were LEGAL for the general public to have, but they became illegal in most states in 2005, if not all.
EDIT- http://www.themirt.com/markets.html
And take a look at this website, might show a few people to start being friends with. ;)
2ND EDIT- What would even be nice is for someone to get one real one, and do an autopsy of it on video.
3RD EDIT (Seriously, I am done)- Found a website that DOES sell these.
http://www.skyoptics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=030

The Universal TV remote thing is a joke. Cop cars do not emit a '911 code' to turn the lights to green. It's simply a 14Hz infrared flasher. Even if a TV remote could output the
right signal, that one IR LED on the remote is going to be too feeble to effect the MIRT.
I fell for the traffic light code too. I actually tried it years ago. This bit of "info" has been around for at least a decade.
But at least I'm not the only sucker to bite.
Is there a secret code to control traffic lights?

http://www.wisebread.com/is-there-a-secret-code-to-control-traffic-lights
As far as I know it's still legal under Federal law to build and have a MIRT. Selling or using one is illegal.
Man Down Under December 8th, 2007, 07:10 PM

Illinois installing IR license plate reading cameras in all interstate rest stops, connected to automated databases.
http://ftp.extremecctv.com/marketing/Extreme_Documents/PR%20-%20Illinois%20Interstate%20Highway%20get%20REG%20L PR_v2.pdf
We are proud to be a part of an on-going effort of securing

North America and excited to see our award-winning REG
be a part of a statewide initiative to protect the citizens of
Illinois, said Jack Gin, CEO and President of Extreme
CCTV. We think our REG License Plate Reader should
be installed throughout the highways of the USA for
integration with powerful and effective programs such as
Amber Alert. Most crimes involve vehicles so an
automated computer driven vehicle identification system
would be of enormous aid to law enforcement agencies.
Recent highly-publicized child abductions in the USA have
underscored the need for the kind of Automatic License Plate
Reading (ALPR) that has quickly become popular for pro-active
policing in the United Kingdom.
'For the Children' justifies anything.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > C ooling a Small Transform er
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View Full Version : Cooling a Small Transformer
Bacon46 S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2007, 06:14 PM

I a m using a automotive battery charg er/starte r to operate a chlorate cell. It has three am p e r a g e s e t t i n g s , 2 , 1 2 , a n d 7 5 a m p s
for starting a car. The 75 amp setting will only run in 30 second bursts, then the therm al protection kicks in and the charger
shuts down com pletely.
I would like to be able to cool the transform er enough to get it to push 7 5 am ps continuously. I have a small (3.5 cf)
refrigerator / freezer that I am not using. I am considering placing the transform er in the freezer section and cooling it that
way but I m n o t s ure if it will overwork the refrig erator. T he cell is running outdoors . Today s a m bient te m peratu re where t h e
cell is located is 1 0 4 F i n t h e s h a d e , a n d i t s no t a l w a y s i n t h e s h a d e .
I UT FSE but was unable to find anythin g on this subject. All I was able to find in a Google search was cooling methods for larger
transform ers or system s that had to be built into the transforme r during the manufacturing process.
Does anyone have any ideas?
I have attached an im age of the transform er so you can see what I am working with. I added the heatsink and fan to keep it
running in the 12 amp mode.
chemdude1999 S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2007, 06:26 PM

The pic is still pending approval, but I have a suggestio n or two.
If you don't m ind tearing into your old refrigerator, you could take the co m p r e s s o r out and run the coolant through a small
water/glycol bath with your transform er setting in it (or a container in it). This would reduce the thermal loading on the
compressor by reducing the volum e it has to cool. It would be like a poor m an's cooling bath.
Actually, before doing the abo ve, I would see if the whole setup could be placed in the fridge. This would be easier and it m ight
work just as will. Just som e thoughts.
monkeyboy S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2007, 08:59 PM

Haven't seen the pic yet.
Are you sure it doesn't use a capacitor to briefly boost the power?
I would look around for an old water cooler. Around here you can pick them up for $20-25. R emove the water jug, if it cam e
with one. Rem ove all the goodies inside the wa ter pot. The water pot is alm ost always made from stainless steel, with the
evaporator wrapped around it. Put som e plastic stand offs in the bottom to keep the transformer from arcing to the pot. Fill it
up with m ineral oil(Mineral oil is non-conductive). Give it about 4 -6 hours to bring it down to tempe rature, should be 34-36F.
Should do a pretty good job of keeping the run ning transformer cool. But you might want to increase the size of both the
secondary & prim ary leads, as close to the transform er as possible. 12 or 14ga for the prim ary & 6 or 8ga for the secondary.
Since you aren't using water, you m igh t want to look for the therm ostat & crank it all the way down. You might be able to hit
low 20s...
Usually inside the back of the box.
I built one with a bigger compressor & condensor & an insulated lid. Filled the pot with 20% brine & used propane as a
refrigerant (whole oth er discussion). It's stable at about 12F. W ill cool a can of yo ur favorite beverage to 35F in 1 m inute:D

S u b m erge it in a m etal bucket of clean m otor oil, with a copper coil in the bucket through which cold water flows, at such a ra te
as to keep the oil below the thermal cut-off temperature of the power-supply. :)
Charles Owlen Picket S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2007, 11:37 AM

I'm glad you enclosed the picture as I think thats a Sears charger which shouldn't pulse at 75am ps and then shut down. If I
a m correct (& often I am not...so take this w/ a grain of salt) the 75amp setting should pulse continually, especially with a
l o a d . It's for marine batteries and charging some of them is a long chore.....so - that charger should keep pumping 75 but it
s m a ll doses. But it should not overhea t & shut down.
Methinks you have a wee issue with the circuitry therein. And cooling it; n o m atter the efficiency will just get the thing to 'die
harder".
ETCS (Ret) S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2007, 05:35 PM

Bacon46,
Unfortunately, the battery charger you are using wasn't designed to output 75 am ps for prolonged periods - only in relatively
short bursts. For high current output both the transformer and the diode rectifier bridge will tend to overhea t severely. They're
s o m ewhat small for the application you have in m ind.
It would be better to find a cheap electric welde r transform er at a place like Harbor Freight Tools and adapt it to you r needs.
Those are designed for hefty current outputs although at a higher voltage than you need for your electrolytic cell. It may be
necessary to modify the secondary winding of the transform er in order to obtain the lower voltage that you need.
It is also possible to re-wind the secon dary of a dam aged Microwave O ve n Transformer (replacing the high voltage secondary,
which tends to burn out, with a very heavy wire low voltage num ber of turns) to obtain the voltage and current you need. Heavy
duty bridge rectifiers are now quite inexpensive thanks to the com puter power supply industry.
Another good choice is to find a high wattage (300 watts or better) AT style com puter power suppy and use either th e 3.3 Volt
output or the 5.0 Volt output to drive an electrolytic cell. Som e of those power supplies are able to deliver very im pressive
current levels for long periods of tim e as long as their internals are clean and not packed with dust accumulation as tends to
build up inside the co mputer. Be sure to open the supply and clean it out well with a sm all brush and a vacuum clea ner.
Bacon46 S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2007, 11:12 PM

Thanks for all the inp ut
I h a v e m o s t o f w h a t I n e e d o n h a n d t o g i v e a l l o f t h e s e ideas a try.
I m ay com bine all of the input and rewind a m icrowave transform er, place it in a bucket of m ineral oil and sacrifice m y little
refrigerators com pressor, coils etc to cool the oil.
All I need is the mineral and the wire for rewinding the m icrowave transfo rm er.
And my wife thinks I collect junk!:D
Jacks Complete S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2007, 07:11 PM

You might be able to pick up a high powered transform er fairly cheap if you look around on places like eba y. I used to have
one that stepped mains at 240V down to 3.3V, converting 10A to about 700A!
A cheap arc welder will shift down for 40+ amps at fairly low voltages. More expensive ones will have fans to cool the coils an d
the like, but very few are rated for outputting at a 100% duty cycle. You will need to watch that!
Basically, you could add a cooling fan system to what you currently have, and see how it runs. If it melts, you drew too m uch
current and didn't cool it enough! Try not to fry yourself, either.
Unsunghero October 14th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 7 : 2 3 P M

Most of the marine chargers that have 2, 12, and 75 am p s o n t h e m a r e N O T d e s i g n e d f o r p r o l o n g e d 7 5 a m p p u l s e s . T h e 7 5
a m p p u l s e i s d e s i g n e d to start the vehicle (be it boat or car) so that the alternator can charge it.
Just giving a little fact to back up ETSC , a s a m atter of fact I'm pretty sure it says so on the charger. I left m ine in Florida (><)
or I would check.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Camouflage for blackbag jobs
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View Full Version : Camouflage for blackbag jobs
WMD September 21st, 2007, 08:40 AM

While destructive opening techniqes have their charme, sometimes you need to be sneaky and nondestructive. This however means it'll take more time, time you spend in front of a door possibly in full sight.
So, how can you escape detection? On the dutch blackbag blog is a nice a story about an FBI job where the entry specialist hid inside a big refrigerator box that was parked outside the target door.
http://www.toool.nl/blackbag/
Any other ideas?
Rbick September 21st, 2007, 10:55 AM

Well that depends on what type of environment you're in. One of my personal favorites in the ghillie suit (http://www.ghilliesuitplus.com/chameleon-ghillie-suits.html). Our snipers used them quite a bit. Always
in training, since we never had a use for them in Iraq. But you could literally walk over someone wearing one of these and not even know it. They could slash your achilles tendon before you knew anything had
happened :D.
Another option is digital camo (http://www.hyperstealth.com/CADPAT-MARPAT.htm). In urban settings at night, the Army digital camo worked pretty well. Especially with night vision. Seeing someone with
digital camo through night vision in a city is tough. In a wooded area however, the Army digital camo is retarded, and easy to see.
I also heard about a suit being developed that reflects its surroundings, making a chameleon like effect. Not to sure on details for this, but apparently its being worked on. The guy hiding in the refrigerator is pretty
funny, and creative. I don't know if I'd have the patients to chill out in a refrigerator for too long though...

I think it was a cardboard box that fridges come in, not an actual fridge. ;)
WMD September 21st, 2007, 01:00 PM

Rbick: Neither Ghillie suits nor digital camo will help you a lot to stay undetected when you're standing next to a door with picks or an impressiong kit for a couple of minutes. I'm talking about working in a normal
everyday city, not a war zone. Maybe I should have chosen a better title....
And yes, I meant a cardboard box.
sobreroHWE September 21st, 2007, 02:01 PM

Doing things in full public view is sometimes disarming enough for by-standers to assume you are not doing anything wrong. I broke in to my home on more than one occasion with my lock pick set, neighbors
driving/walking by for 15 minutes. No problems. "my friend" also told me a story about when he got some nice glass/chems from an open classroom with 3 or 4 students quietly studying in the next room. "My
friend" walked right past them, glass in hand, with no problems.
Keeping your body language under control is also important. Security people in a retail store will look for some mud watching his back every 5 seconds, or some fat bitch staring at the employees just before she
snatches some Twinkies, rather than the calm, cunning Rogue who just looks like hes supposed to be there. The public is very stupid and inattentive.
Printing up a "Joe's locksmithing" or a "FedEx" logo on a $1 shirt with some dirty work pants and maybe some other props, will also help in areas requiring a bit of subterfuge. I have seen both work.
perrymk September 21st, 2007, 03:23 PM

When I was an undergraduate chemistry student I would do experiments in student labs during class session. Once I found a not too crowded morning lab class and just walked in. Most people recognized me as a
student but no one ever asked if I was registered for that particular lab class (I wasn't). I even had the stockroom guy get stuff for me when I ran out or needed something. I think I actually had better attendance
than some of the registered students although I never did the student experiments, just my own analysis.
I think the key was I blended in. I was a student, I looked like a student, and I was surrounded by students. If it were an office envirnoment a suit and tie might be better.
anonymous411 September 21st, 2007, 07:03 PM

Brooks Brothers suit, Gucci loafers, impeccable grooming, and an air of calm certainty?
Anyone can find the first two on Ebay for pennies on the dollar.
Rbick September 21st, 2007, 08:15 PM

Ha my mistake. I automatically assumed the word "Camouflage" to refer to some sort of literal blending with the enviornment. But I agree with sobreroHWE and perrymk. Acting calmly and looking like you're
suppose to be there is the key. Confidence will get you a long way. If you act like you know what you're talking about, people will tend not to question you. Same with acting like you're suppose to be there.
I recall back in my teenage days (I was 17 at the time and had yet to graduate High School) when I walked to into the Chemistry building at the local college. I walked right into a class room and struck up a
coversation with the professor about thermite reactions. At the time, being in my early stages of interest in energetic materials, I really didn't know much about Chemistry. But I threw in a few terms and
pretended to know what I was talking about. We spoke for a while and he never questioned whether I was a student in his class. It turned out to be a good experience, as I learned a lot. Although I never found the
chemical storage closet I was looking for :D. Social Engineering is a great Camouflage.
Match September 23rd, 2007, 11:26 PM

Brooks Brothers suit, Gucci loafers, impeccable grooming, and an air of calm certainty?
Anyone can find the first two on Ebay for pennies on the dollar.
Yea, no doubt. Look rich ( not drug dealer rich, but wall street rich) and people will let you get away with murder. :cool:
perrymk September 24th, 2007, 11:00 AM

I walked right into a class room and struck up a coversation with the professor ... We spoke for a while and he never questioned whether I was a student in his class.
Even if he did know you weren't in his class he would likely have talked with you anyway. I have emailed professors looking for copies of their papers and had copies mailed to me. This from professors of
universities I had no affiliation with and who could not know if I were a student or a bum on the internet. I have also had professors and other professionals answer questions for a research paper. Many, perhaps
even most, professors like to help interested students. I wouldn't abuse the situation but certainly take advantage of it.
totenkov September 25th, 2007, 07:36 PM

Ghillie suits are good, however in urban areas I am not sure how appropriate they are. If you are sneaking about in the night, best is just black clothing. when committing your dirty deed (or whatever your doing)
the greatest fear is usually being seen. However unless you are in a war zone (or area were people are on high alert) it needs to be remembered that people aren't on the lookout for dudes running around in black.
Shadows help hide you, bushes and so on.
I have found in the past (especially at night, or in good camo in the day) as long as you stay stock still people can look straight at you and not see you. Even if they are 10 feet away! The eye detects movement,
shape and then color. Best to break up your shape as a human because it is easily recognizable.
People are usually stupid. They go about in their lives without really seeing what is going on around them. If you look at people in the mall, were are they looking? Watching other people around them, making sure
no one is following them? Hell no. They are watching their feet fall on the ground, oblivious to all those around them.
If you are doing something that is illegal, dangerous or otherwise will excite others to call the cops, chase you/whatever the best thing you can do is stick to the shadows, get it done and leave. Don't let your
imagination run wild and loose your head.

I'd disagree with that entirely. There are thousand's of security cameras, security gaurds, and MoP's (Members of the Public), as well as police (helicopters and foot soldiers of various types) all looking out for
"Men in Black with intent".
Dressing in a black get-up says "Cat Burglar" or "Spy" to anyone who ever saw a Milk Tray advert or James Bond film. And, it's not even effective in an area with street lighting! Sure, you look like a big black
shadow, but I can see shadows just fine.
Just dress in a regular black/dark set of gear, with a hoodie if you want, and keep your gloves off until you need them, hood down close over your head but walking upright. Don't look like you are wanting to pick a
fight, and don't mooch, just act like you are going someplace, and go there, and, honestly, no-one looks twice.
Try the same dressed as a ninja, and you will stick out like a sore thumb. It will also give the police a great ID for looking for you, too!

Really, all we have said is what has been said before.
Don't attract attention to yourself. That is the basics of camouflage. Ghillie suits are appropriate in some situations, but useless in a mall for instance.
Look like everyone else. Go to your local mall, sit there and watch people walk past. Study how they move, how the walk, where they look, what the look like. Become an expert on the sheeple.
An important part of camouflage is to not catch the eye. Hence, if you are following someone, by all means watch them, but don't make eye contact. Once you do that, you generally shake them out of whatever
stupor they are in and bring them back to reality.
Same with liberating things. If you are planning to "liberate" something, follow the RTPB (obviously), but make sure you blend in.
Is it better to be walking down a mall at 1am, wearing a black ninja outfit or black clothing? Or is it better to be there at 1pm, when all the corporate types are out and about for lunch, dressed in your suit and with
your briefcase?
Be ingenious and utilise things around you. If you need time at a door, look like a cleaner and have a reason to be there! Otherwise, make sure no one can see you, but make sure it isn't obvious.
For example, the fridge container. People could accept it being there, and while it was out of place (a fridge next to a door), it fit right in and no one questioned it.
By seeing everything as if you were seeing it for the first time and by trying not to fit it into the archetype you have built for everything. This way you are both aware if someone is doing these things to you, and you
also learn about how the sheeple operate.

I'm sure everyone has seen one of these besides doors to businesses:
http://www.barcoproducts.com/images/upload/items/large/UR38HT202.jpg
It's big enough for a non-fat person to curl up into, and with a little modification, someone could be waiting...;)

Might be kind of gross or even painful when someone dumps some rubbish or a cigarette butt on your head! It would also look way out of place if it was right in front of the door.
Now, as a turret weapon, it would have some big advantages! And if you wanted to, you could make it from strong concrete and steel, and it is a bunker! (Yes, a one man and very small bunker, but it's better than
just standing there!)

You put it by the target door well in advance, so people get used to it being there. Since nobody in a corporate setting is going to bother finding out why a garbage receptacle has appeared by the front door, no one is
going to suspect it.
When is the last time you saw a garbage can and said 'I must find out who put that there!'...really. :rolleyes:
It is, of course, epoxied or bolted into place, right where you want it to be.
After it's been there a few weeks, it'll be as if it's always been there. :)
Then, the night before the appointed time, you 'move in', having removed the trash container, and putting a false top on that has that 'overflowing with garbage' look, which is actually just clean trash that's
attached to a black mesh screen, so you can see out and get some air, with no one trying to throw trash on your head.
How to keep derelicts from trying to recycle? Hmmm...good question. Snake rattler? I know a swarm of wasps would do it for me.
Anyways, when your target approaches the door first thing (like opening the bank), you magically appear out of thin air. :)

Not quite what I meant. If you are going to pick the lock, you would want to be right in front of the door, where the lock is, rather than off to one side. If you are right in front of the door, with a bin, then people are
going to wonder, because you can't put something permanent in front of the door like that, else people can't use it!
If it's for an ambush, then that's different, and it being a few feet away is fine.
sobreroHWE October 24th, 2007, 03:47 PM

Because of this thread I decided to get off my ass and get to work. "My friend" "found" a real FedEx shirt and hat. I will try to post some pics of "my friend" looking suave in his new get up, while doing something
"rogue".
It occurred to me that in addition to being able to complete some overt task while in public view, a false uniform may also help you get into a targets home WITH their permission (for an attack,bugging op) With a
full closet, anyone could move effortlessly, in and out, of a potential witnesses conscience memory.
panzerkampfwagen October 25th, 2007, 01:12 AM

Although blending in is usually the best way to avoid suspicion, sometimes intentionally drawing attention to yourself can be more effective. I remember that a pyro family (interesting story, four kids, grandma
and grandpa and the parents (a family that makes bombs together stays together)) tried to blow up a casino with a home-made bomb disguised as the kind of thing that you do not want to mess with. It was about
five feet tall, four feet wide, made out of stainless steel plates, and had 130 switches and over a hundred blinking red lights and weighed a almost a ton. It went "undetected" for over 48 hours before it was armed
(by the father, disguised as a generic electrical repairman). No one questioned it because it was too suspicious to be suspicious. The plot was only realized after they called in the bomb threat. No suspects have
been arrested, and it happened in 1988.
In other words, if you walked through a major city in a gigantic taco or hotdog suit, do you think that anyone would be suspicious? The last time that you saw someone in some ridiculous outfit, like a cartoon
character suit or in blatantly emo clothing, did the word "assasin" ever come to mind? If it did, lay off of the pot. In other words, it is possible to have such a ridiculous disguise that you cannot be caught.
I wonder what would happen of you wore a t-shirt that said "definitely not an assasin" on the front. You might actually get away with it. Dark humor has become so common, particularly in t-shirts that people
would just think that you have a twisted sense of humor. Come to think of it, who would suspect the guy in the Santa or Easter Bunny suit?
nbk2000 October 25th, 2007, 10:50 AM

Turn yourself into a vending machine! :D
http://www.treehugger.com/20crime_slide01.jpg
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/10/urban_camouflag.php
sobreroHWE October 26th, 2007, 01:09 PM

That looks like it might solve someones "what to wear if I need time to pick a lock" problem. Just make it look like it was just delivered and has a good reason for sitting in an awkward place.
lock October 27th, 2007, 10:09 AM

Wow, check this out- http://www.ezpicking.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=830
Burglars-in-a-box busted after Canada robberies

Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:27 PM EDT
TORONTO (Reuters) - Two men and a woman who used an ordinary cardboard box to break into over 200 Toronto area fast-food joints were caught by lucky timing, police said on Friday.
The trio arrived at their target with an oversized cardboard box, which they propped up against the restaurant's front door. One person hid in the box and used specialized tools to break into the restaurant, while
the others stood guard with a police scanner and two-way radios.
"They were able to, by experience, literally remove the glass from the pane of the door and then set the glass aside," said Detective Sergeant Reuben Strober of Toronto Police, adding that the burglars managed to
disable most alarm systems at the same time.
Even if the alarms were triggered, the suspects got away before police arrived. Over the course of their crime spree, they made off with some C$250,000 ($260,000), police said.
Strobel said the three were finally caught after police responded to an unrelated call in the neighborhood.
They face 355 charges.
Kaydon October 31st, 2007, 11:25 PM

Casual.
That's key.
If you're scoping out the 'hood, dress like a meter reader and read meters.
If you're in public, observe people. If it's not 30 degrees out don't wear a big bulky leather jacket, etc. Wear what everyone else is wearing. Some colors scream 'suspicious character' like black clothing. In stores
people wearing hoodies get watched.
Some stores like target have people dressed like everyone else but they're security personnel who walk around the store scoping out suspicious characters.
Remember though, it isn't stealing until you leave the business.
But if you're after homes, you've got a couple things facing you if you're spotted, B&E, Trespassing, etc.
Blend into the area you're after.
Hell you could even impersonate a cop, you'd just better not get caught and fit the role. I know around here any moron could fit the role of our local police.
NBK's trash can idea is bloody brilliant. Great idea with thrash attached to the mesh. Only problem is what business it's in front of could try to empty the trash and you'd be a bit fucked. How the hell would you
explain that?
WMD November 4th, 2007, 09:52 AM

Thanks for all the good replies so far. I think however some are a little bit besides the point. Of course it's nice to blend in and everything but as soon as you're standing in front of a door fumbling around with tools
everyone looks suspicious. The one possible exception being maybe someone with a "24-7 emergency locksmith" jacket and a "rightful owner" bitching about how the entry is taking so long. What you need to keep
in mind though is that with blackbag jobs, unlike normal burglaries you want to be able to get in and out several times without being detected.
So far the box in front of the door seems like the best idea. If it's a delivery entrance, parking a van in front of the door might work as well to shield yourself from suspicious eyes.
Kaydon November 5th, 2007, 12:20 PM

There used to be a show on Discovery Channel called It takes a thief. Where these two guys would "rob" families homes when they were gone - you had to sign-up to be robbed of course.. It seemed like mostly a
crock, but what they would do is take a plain old van and put like so-and-so TV repair, plumbing, etc. When the family leaves, just pull up, rob the place and stuff all the goodies in the van and haul ass - using a fake
license plate of course.
Prutzel November 9th, 2007, 12:15 PM

hmmm...what about this:
http://www.time.com/time/2003/inventions/invinvisible.html

Requires an LCD projector to be set up a distance away from the scene, to project a copy of the scene, onto a non-perfect reflective coat.
Oh, and it's needs to be powered.

I looked at every invention Time chose for its 2003 lineup, and only the cell phone camera has actually made an impact on society. I still think cell phone cameras are dumb, but more often than not some citizen
turns up with footage of police brutality or fedgov terrorism. Reverse big brother at its best.
Notice how very impractical it is to have a special reflective outfit on and set up an LCD projector. You would also only be invisible from the direction of the projector, yes? I wonder how the police would use this to
disguise the approach of fedgov murderers if the projector has to be shining from the targets position.
You might be able to use something like this to hide you from notice from behind, but imagine what could possibly go wrong... you are skulking around wearing a funny looking parka shining a very bright light on
yourself. Nothing could possibly go wrong there.
How much would a projector cost to project a scene far enough, and bright enough to hide you? The cheapo home theater ones cost a fortune, this would probably have to use an industrial or theater grade projector
costing tens of thousands of dollars!
javainmycoffee November 14th, 2007, 05:55 AM

In many places fire codes require multiple entrances/exits; one is usually a back door or a service entrance. Pretend you're a bum sleeping a few feet away until you know no one is coming. This wouldn't work for
personal residences but in a city street setting or store robbery it might work.
wolfy9005 November 18th, 2007, 05:36 AM

Dress up in one of those big silver foil suit's that they use to walk near volcano's, etc. You'd probably get some laugh's, and you'd be able to go into some door's that normal people cant. The biggest thing is
confidence. Just because the sign say's "door alarmed" doesnt mean it's actually alarmed(ive seen security guards walk through the fire door's). The bin idea is good, but make it look like it belong's there. No point
having a crappy looking bin infront of a multi-million or even multi-billion dollar company's tower now is there?(unless it's at the street, but then you'd have rubbish thrown at you, kicked, etc)
Charles Owlen Picket November 18th, 2007, 09:40 AM

I think you bumped into an idea with the security guards uniform..... Certainly that opens doors due to the actual lack of data a real guard would have....he would not be a cop, he could be "new on the job", or
waiting for a supervisor.

Security guards usually walk into the firedoors they walked out of, having turned them off with a key. But feel free to try it. You can tell us how it went when they let you out on bail.
I have a t-shirt that says "Network security STAFF" written big across the back, and a vague logo on the front. Very funny, but I feel more like a target when wearing it. Same with the "locksmith" one. Plain-ish,
washed a few times black, with a logo on it blends far better.
IriOfTheSnow March 2nd, 2008, 06:42 PM

Along with NBK's trash can idea, Michael Moore used an interesting trash bag urban camo that would fit any where in an urban enviroment: by the street, by the front door, ect. Any out-of place look it hold would
be chalked up to negligent thinking on half of the trash owners. Seems to be much more versatile.
Here's the video: http://http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=27588 (http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=27588)The bag is used is about a third of the way through.
Seems easy enough to make, a black trash bag filled with some paper, cardboard pieces, maybe a bottle, some mesh, and maybe some cement slurry to bind everything.
wst50 March 8th, 2008, 04:35 PM

for the binbag idea, use a kiddie play tunnel. Have some poles that you can hook through holes at the 'top' (it'll be on-end) of the tunnel, to give it height. A bag could sit on top, with a hole in the bottom, the edge of
the hole glued to the bottom edge of the tunnel (the top tied off to simulate a bag). To assemble, get in (with the poles), hook them into the holes at the top, let go of the tunnel, and you're ready to wait.
In a delivery area (ie. for warehouses), plain cardboard boxes would be perfect for camo. Deliver a large load of boxes from a van, some containing a person, others containing tools, and some empty (decoys).
Quite a few loads could build up relatively un-noticed. Though leaving them in a covered area would be a good idea, cardboard doesn't like rain.
sbovisjb1 March 9th, 2008, 04:19 AM

I'd disagree with that entirely. There are thousand's of security cameras, security gaurds, and MoP's (Members of the Public), as well as police (helicopters and foot soldiers of various types) all looking out for
"Men in Black with intent".
Dressing in a black get-up says "Cat Burglar" or "Spy" to anyone who ever saw a Milk Tray advert or James Bond film. And, it's not even effective in an area with street lighting! Sure, you look like a big black
shadow, but I can see shadows just fine.
Just dress in a regular black/dark set of gear, with a hoodie if you want, and keep your gloves off until you need them, hood down close over your head but walking upright. Don't look like you are wanting to pick a
fight, and don't mooch, just act like you are going someplace, and go there, and, honestly, no-one looks twice.
Try the same dressed as a ninja, and you will stick out like a sore thumb. It will also give the police a great ID for looking for you, too!
Don't dress suspiciously. Dress nondescriptly and act normally. I would suggest instead of breaking into a house, if you want to kidnapp someone, nab him while he is away from his house.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > C hemicals to eat through
concrete?
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View Full Version : Chemicals to eat through concrete?
lock October 7th, 2007, 06:05 PM

Hey,
Just wondering what chemicals are capable of e ating through concrete, specifically hardened concre te.
From what I know about concrete, it's form ed by hydration, has a high co mpression strength and low tensile strength. R ebar is
used to raise the tensile stren gth.
From this, I think you could have two possible attacks. One would be a rapid expansion contraction, which would tak e
advantage of the weak tensile strength. This would probably be done easily with a hot/cold attack.
Alternatively, you could dissolve it with chemicals. Any ideas as to what would do the job??

This (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum /showthread.php?t=1013) thread m ight ha v e b e e n o f s o m e u s e t o y o u h a d y o u U T F S E ,
but you mustn't have, else you'd have posted your question there instea d of starting a new topic...
Or try searching for "Dex-o-pan" posts from NBK2000 to crack th e concrete in m ore or less of a controlled m anner.
How about som e m ore detail on what you're looking to do or not searching correctly or tho roughly enough for?
ChippedHammer October 8th, 2007, 12:18 AM

W hat about concentrated hydrofluoric acid?
J u s t m a k e s u r e y o u b r i n g s o m e good gloves and a respirator with you.
lock October 8th, 2007, 11:08 AM

Lock> "Just wondering what chemicals are capable of eating thro ugh concrete, specifically hardened concrete."
Festergrump> "How a bout some more detail on what yo u're looking to do or not searching correctly or thoroughly enough for?"
Sorry, I was interested in what chemicals are used to ea t through hardened concrete, not standard concrete. The hardened
concrete used in bank vaults is of specific interest.
W hen I searched for "hardened concrete" I only found 7 m atches, none of which I found helpful..
That other thread has som e g ood info, thanks.
teshilo October 8th, 2007, 01:33 PM

H a r d e n e d ? H m m ...I know wha t in com ponent of liquid rocket fuel eat concrete Com p o u n d s a s h y d r a z i n e a n d his derivates as
tetrafluoride...And sm all tip :any high-reactive com pound very toxic and his use in closed space ve ry danger..
Bugger October 8th, 2007, 03:13 PM

To vary the subject slightly, what would be the best (and safest) chemical with which to corrode steel rebar, and also g a l v a n i z e d
stee l pipework which is used to form a barrier a g a i n s t p e r s o n n e l ? T h e c h e m ical co uld conveniently be introd u c e d i n t o a n d
contained by the inside of the pipework, though a hole or an end of the piping, especially where it is vertical and stuck into the
ground or a block of concrete. I would think that concentrated HCl would be best, because of FeCl2 , FeCl3, ZnC l2, and the
FeCl4- anion being very soluble in the water of solution left behind, being more soluble th an the FeSO 4, Fe2(SO 4)3 , a n d
ZnSO4 which would be formed if H2SO4 were to b e u s e d .
Besides, concentrated HCl is less hazardous to handle than concentrated H2SO4; and can more readily be bought cheaply as
an im pure "technical" grade from hardware stores (or in some places superm arke t s ) a s a s o l d e r i n g f l u x . I n s o m e p l a c e s ,
concentrated H2SO4 can also be bought in hardware stores, because of its use to "pickle" (rem ove rust from ) mild steel and
cast iron prio r to plating with Zn or painting with a rust-proofing prim er.
B e c a u s e t h e o x i d e s o f b o t h F e a n d Z n a r e a m p hoteric, a strong alkali, e.g. concentrated NaOH, which is sold in hardware stores
a n d s o m e s u p e r m ark ets as drain cleaners like "Drano", m ay possibly also be used; but Na zincate or ferrite(II) or (III) are not
as soluble as Zn and Fe chlorides.

I a m sure there are many che micals or com binations of chemica ls that could do the job, b ut I would think it would take
m onths, if not years to "eat through" a substantial thickness. Even if you d o h a v e c h e m icals that can dissolve or loosen the
concrete, you m ay require substantial volumes of them .
T r a d e b o o k s o n c o n c r e t e c h e m istry would be a good pla ce to sta r t . A l s o b o o k s o n g e o l o g y a n d g e o l o g i c a l e x p e r i m ents.

G e o l o g i s t s s o m e t i m e s c h e m ically dissolve rock samples and may have a slew of appropriate form ulas to use.

Bugger it is extrem ely difficult to keep high concentrations of HC l liquid, as a m atter of fact the boiling point of 38% is 48
d e g r e e s C . . t h e h i g h e s t c h e m ically possible concentration of HCl is a little over 40% when it's not gaseous. Containing gaseous
high -conc HC l, while I'm sure it's possible would take quiet a bit of effort and specialized equipm ent.
Acid-wise I would try H2SO4 because unlike nitric it doesn't nitrate your flesh if you screw up and it's not a pain in th e a s s t o
concentrate.
Once when I was doing a little "experimenting" in my garage I spilled ~9 7% H2SO4 on the concrete floor (standard home
d e p o t m ix). I was a little bit busy doing something else to notice for about 3-4 m inutes. Once this little spill was rinsed with
s o d i u m bicarb I noticed that the concrete the H2SO 4 had come in contact with was almost a powdery substance (very very
coarse) about half an inch down.
Y o u c o u l d p r o b a b l y g e t s o m e type of liquid dispersal un it you could use with the H2SO4 and a com pressor or long piece of
m etal. Let th e sulfuric sink in scrape/blow it, move on. If you don't care about noise you could possibly throw a pretty good
a m ount, wait a couple min, slam it with a ham m e r .
Of course iron rebar reinforcements m ight be a *little* harder /sarcasm, I honestly haven't seen what sulfu ric does to it, you
m ight try nitric acid seeing as how it tends to corrode metals..containing and dispersing might be com plicated thoug h.
Just my 2 cents.

C h e m icals ta ke tim e...a LOT of tim e.
If you need stealth, that's about the only tim e I can think of chemicals b eing better than explosives for the job.
Regarding th e rebar, you can cut that with tools very quickly and quietly.
If you need to cut rebar very quickly, and noise isn't a concern, than a re bar cutting attachment that goes on a rifle will do the
job. Sim ply line up the rebar in the cutter and pull the trigger. The bullet cuts the rebar. :)

Though it takes lots of tim e to com pletely destroy it, it seem s like it would weake n it alm ost instantly. 2-3 m i n u t e s a n d I c o u l d
dig the concrete out of the floor with m y hands if I wanted to.
That rebar rifle attachment is possibly one of the coolest things I've ever heard of..I just can't see how it would work without
ricochet etc.
Nighthawkinlight October 8th, 2007, 08:56 PM

A rebar cutting round is used (at least used to be used) quite often. I kn ew a man that worked with concrete his whole life. He
and my father both worked long days doing nothing but blasting rebar.
My process would probably be to just find a time when dexpan would have tim e to work without anyone noticing.

The rebar cutter uses standard FMJ am mo, which just blows apart upon impact with the rebar, severing it in the process.
http://blog5.fc2.com /g/gaga/file/sherrif_troy_2.jpg
The attachment acts as a guide and shield, to contain the bullet fragm ents.
http://www.le wismachine.net/product.php?p=129&cid=11&session=bbff2da418ee8 7 a 2 b 1 5 4 c 8 2 b 8 e d f95f9

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Lam i n a t i o n R e m oval
Techniques
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View Full Version : Lamination Removal Techniques
boodih Novem b e r 2 n d , 2 0 0 7 , 0 6 : 2 8 P M
D o e s a n y b o d y h a v e a n y i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t l a m i n a t i o n r e m oval technique s?
I a m searching for chem i c a l s , m e t h o d s , t e c h n i q u e s , m a chines or "patented m achines not built yet" that would help in
loosening nylon, polyester or plastic lam i n a t e s f r o m p a p e r s .
nbk2000 Novem b e r 2 n d , 2 0 0 7 , 0 9 : 5 1 P M
Standard Reply #1:
W hat have you contributed to here tha t we should answer such a question from a n u n k n o w n n 0 0 b ?
boodih Novem ber 3rd, 2007, 08:16 AM

I a m a newbie, I still have contributed nothing to this forum .
T h i s p o s t a b o u t " L a m ination Removal Techniques", if discussed further would be a first step sm all contribution, because it
would help in :
a- Answering the subject of lam ination rem oval techniques.

b- Discussing related patented technologies.
c- Developing or inventing new techniques due to brainstorming.
If such a subject is brainstorm ed and discussed further, wouldn't that be a sm all contribution:
a- to people who are searching Google for a similar subject, who want that subject answered. Every public post is automatically
inde xed by Google search engine, so that people searching for a similar subject would enter this forum t h r o u g h G o o g l e , a n d
would find good answers to their questions, and a good comm unity ready for open discussion. By the way I was searching for a
subject over google a n d I w a s l e a d e d t o t h i s g o o d f o r u m .
b - t o m e m bers of this forum who might be looking for an answer
c- to researchers who want to discuss related patented technologies, or even cooperate in developing new related te c h n o l o g i e s .
n b k 2 0 0 0 , I h a v e r e a d m any o f your posts, you are a experience d in m any areas, you have contributed a lot to this forum, I
appreciate that.
nbk2000, thank you for your reply
festergrump Novem ber 3rd, 2007, 02:57 PM

This is more like a Water Cooler question, isn't it? Besides, we're a little vague in the original post, aren't we?
Does the paper or plastic need to rem ain intact in the process? W h a t i s t h e t e x t u r e o f e a c h ? W h a t b o n d s t h e m t o g e ther, a g lue
o r a n a d h e s i v e ? Y o u l e a v e e v e r y o n e h e r e g u e s s i n g a n d a n y h e l p f u l a n s w e r s m i g h t b e j u s t a s v a g u e a s t h e i n p u t y o u ' v e g i v e n,
though I'll try to help...
Heat works for defeating adhesives m ost often used in the cabinetry field for laminating p lastic or veneers to pressboards,
plyboards, or m e l a m ine... as does laquer thinn er. Use light pressure to peel one layer away from the other while ad ministering
heat or dousing with laquer thinner liberally. (m y experience is not with p aper, but more often veneer).
If heat and laquer thinner don't work and you don't kno w what was used to join the two, I'd recom m e n d y o u a p p l y s a n d p a p e r
a n d j u s t k i s s y o u r " p a p e r " s i d e g o o d b y e . C h a n c e s a r e g ood a decent glue was used to bond the two.
NOTE: An adhesive, while som e are very strong , is merely a sticky stand-alone substance which "rides" on surfaces and
remains forever som ewhat pliable (thu s "sticky"), while a true "g lue" form s a solid union either through solidifying a fter
invading pores or by creating a molecular union, at least that's what the general concensus is in millwork circles of which I am
affiliated.
BTW , depending on the thickness of both your plastic and paper, either m i g h t b e d a m a g e d by applying the necessary heat to
break an adhesive bond. Laquer thinner will only som etimes stain the paper but usually won't harm the pla stic. YMMV,
d e p e n d i n g o n s o m any variables...
P.S. I'll bet every mem ber here would be im p r e s s e d i f y o u s o m ehow showed that this question of yours related to E&W . I sure
would.

Not related to E&W, but certainly relate d to free dom, as anyone who's gotten out of a repressive country using a falsified
passport will attest to.
Give n how many countries are, or are turning into police -states, being ab le to fake a passport to get out would be a g o o d
thing.

If you want to rem o v e l a m ination from a docum ent, why not just copy the docum e n t , m o d i f y t h e d o c u m e n t a s y o u s e e f i t a n d
then just lam inate the new docum ent?

T h e l a m inate is a hologram that would be im possible for an individual to forge at hom e, thus the need to keep it intact.
anonymous411 Novem ber 7th, 2007, 11:53 AM

T h e l a m inate is a hologram that would be im possible for an individual to forge at hom e, thus the need to keep it intact.
On a tangential subject, I found a supplier who sells custom ized holographic card overlays and rolls of holographic film for
printers. O bviously not applicable in many case s, but very handy to know about:
http://www.novavisioninc.com /pages/prd_overlays.html
http://www.novavisioninc.com / p a g e s / p r d _ h o l o g r a m _ h o l o g r a m s.h tm l?
utm_source=google&utm_m e d i u m =cpc&utm _term=holograms&utm_cam paign=hologram s
parmin Novem b e r 2 2 n d , 2 0 0 7 , 1 0 : 5 9 P M
Majority of la m i n a t e s a r e h e a t m elt glues. they m elts at about 1 30 to170 celcius.
theoritically, if you wo rk in a controlled tem perature area at the m elting tem ps of the lam inates, you could rem o v e t h e
coatings.
Par

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > High-Temperature Problems
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View Full Version : High-Temperature Problems
markfh11q November 10th, 2007, 10:25 AM

Greetings. I'm just hailing from SpudTech real quick, because I've got a question or two concerning very high temperatures.
I've been thinking over the designs for an electrothermal gun for a little while now. The basic principle is this:
A sample of steel wool of known mass is connected to two electrodes inside a combustion chamber. In this case, electrode #1 will be a stainless spring. Electrode #2 will be the
walls of the chamber, (insulated from #1 by epoxy).
The chamber is sealed off with a burst disk and filled with compressed air until enough oxygen is present to completely oxidize the steel wool. I still haven't done the
stoichiometry to see if I'll need to enrich the atmosphere in the chamber as far as O2 concentration, but I'm gonna get to that when I have the time, so don't
bother, (I'm not one of those people who goes "how muhc psi do i need for a pad of steehl wul?" ;) )
The problem I have is not with the overall design, it's just with electrode #2, (i.e. the inside of the chamber). It will be made out of steel pipe, so corrosion from the violent
reaction will eventually make it less conductive. May mean more heat, but I'm more interested in a quicker reaction, not heat.
Does anybody know of some sort of conductive epoxy-type coating to paint the inside of the chamber with? All I know of is epoxy with some aluminum powder in it, but I've
had problems with coatings like this chipping before. I guess I could take the plunge and buy some high-temp stainless tubing and weld some fittings on there for the
compressed air and union, but that would just be ridiculous.
Anybody have any ideas?
LibertyOrDeath November 11th, 2007, 01:05 AM

I don't know much about spudguns or what would be the best conductive epoxy for what you're doing, but there seems to be a wide variety of such epoxies out there. Just
searching on Yahoo for "conductive epoxy" should turn up a lot.
How about something like this, for example? http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/8331.html

Perhaps you could insert a sacrificial sleeve of metal inside the steel tube to be replaced as needed. You could use something as simple as aluminum foil, or something more
durable like a thin sheet of copper, tin, aluminum, brass, or steel sheet.
markfh11q November 11th, 2007, 09:58 AM

LibertyOrDeath, the maximum temp. on that epoxy is rated at 194 F. The temperature inside of this thing will exceed that by a huge margin. The adiabatic values would be
extremely high, (rough mental calculation), and the reaction is quick enough that the real-world values won't very much.
Megalomania, I guess it's partly my fault for not explaining in the above post, but the reaction is going to be initiated by dumping one or two drum capacitors through the
electrodes. If I could find a sleeve that fit well enough, it'd be a good idea, but it arc otherwise. You'd need a pretty thick sleeve, (high mass), as well to prevent heat transfer
to the walls of the chamber, which would cause oxidation as well.
If I can find a high temperature conductive coating I'll use it, but otherwise I might just have to order a 316 stainless steel nipple from McMaster or some such.
LibertyOrDeath November 11th, 2007, 10:21 PM

Oops, you're right about the 194 F -- I was focusing on the electrical conductivity and overlooked that figure. Yeah, that's a wee bit low for a combustion chamber, even
though it probably refers to continuous operating temperature rather than fairly quick flashes.
If you can't find a suitable conductive coating, then I suspect that something along the lines of what mega said might be your best bet. If a protective metal sleeve is inserted
into the steel tube, are you sure there'd be arcing if there's sufficient electrical contact between the sleeve and the tube? I haven't played around with this sort of high-voltage
setup, but I would think that arcing would only happen if there wasn't a good conductive path between the two tubes.
As for the oxidation of the steel, what about coating it with a conductive epoxy first -- even if that epoxy isn't rated high enough to be exposed directly in the chamber -- and
then using the protective liner on top of the epoxy? That might keep the temperature of the epoxy within reason while helping limit oxidation or other damage to the steel
tube. (I'm not suggesting that the liner be glued in there, of course, but letting the epoxy cure first and then inserting the sacrificial liner.) So in other words, some kind of
multi-layer solution might do the trick.
Sorry if any of this is ignorant, but like I said, I have no experience with making or even using spudguns. Nevertheless, the problem you pose is interesting, so I thought I'd
give it a shot.
markfh11q November 11th, 2007, 10:49 PM

Not at all. I'm sort of out on a limb with this extreme temperatures as well. Max I've dealt with is absolutely no more than around 2200 F for a split second, (propane in air), in
a combustion chamber, and that rusts steel, (at least in my hybrid cannon). In that one, I don't have to have a conductive chamber, though.
I've looked at the 316 stainless and it's reasonable, (around 7 bucks for a 3/4" by 2" nipple). I can then just use normal black steel fittings after that.
Thanks for the suggestions.
wolfy9005 November 20th, 2007, 11:40 AM

http://powerlabs.org/electrothermal.htm
would this help?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > O dor absorbing m aterials
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paul88 Novem ber 22nd, 2007, 01:29 AM

Alrig ht, I have searched across the web looking for odor absorbing materials. I have com e across gells, rocks and layering of
clothing, but nothing really decent. I want to se n d s o m ething to som e o n e b u t I d o n o t w a n t i t t o b e s m e l l e d .
I realize I can seal th e package with som e kind of latex or caulking, but that would m a k e i t l o o k s u s p i c i o u s . I s a w a n
incom plete a rticle about Charcoal covered cloth layered on each other with baking soda in between, but I do not know if it
would work. Suggestions please...
I realize that I'm a " n e w b " , b u t I n e e d s o m e h e l p . T h a n k y o u i n a d v a n c e .
WMD Novem ber 22nd, 2007, 08:31 AM

W hile I can't tell you what the best ma terial to use would be, I'd like you to keep in mind, that a regular problem with... sm elly
shipm ents is that while the m erchandise itself is packaged properly, people have traces of it all over their hands whle handling
the package. So be sure to clean the merchandise, your hands and your working area before gift-wrapping and ship ping it.
Charles Owlen Picket Novem ber 22nd, 2007, 09:53 AM

S o m etime back folks thought they cou l d d e f e a t a d o g s m e l l i n g m arijuana by wrapping sam e in airtight container an d using
s o m ething like a vaporous hydrocarbon (like gasoline) to stink up the outside of the pack age (labeling it "auto parts", etc). It
didn ' t w o r k b e c a u s e a d o g ' s n o s e s m e l l s B O T H o d o r s a n d c a n d i s t i n g u i s h when one is the "reward" odor. If you are dealing with
a dog; you h ave a real challenge.
hatal Novem ber 22nd, 2007, 11:08 AM

I know this will sound totally ridicules (and pathetic, and etc...). But how about Kitty Litter.
I m ean that stuff really absorbs a huge variety of "odors" not mention the other things.
Know I really don't su ggest embedding your "object" into kitty litter, but why not? Still, looking at the packa ge you can find out
what m ateria ls its ma d e o f a n d e x p e r i m ent with the ingredients until you got your own odor absorbing material (the right one).
paul88 Novem b e r 2 2 n d , 2 0 0 7 , 1 2 : 2 9 P M
I never thought of kitty litter.
I will experim ent with different things and see what works better for m y a pplication.
A n y s u g g e s t i o n s o n p otential m aterials to use?
Kurosawa Novem b e r 2 2 n d , 2 0 0 7 , 0 9 : 1 0 P M
The "charcoa l paper" you are referring to is a substance known as activated carbo n. Incidently, it is also a component of cat
litter, used for it's am m o n i a - a bsorbing properties. It is sold in it's pure form as odor control for pets urinating on carpet, and to
r e m o v e i m purities in fishtank water.
W hatever you do, DO NT SHIP this sm elly substance in a plastic vessel, they let gasses in and out. Glass (p referred) or m etal
do not.
Charles Owlen Picket Novem ber 23rd, 2007, 08:20 AM

IF we are talking about dogs you need to think outside the box. The nose on a dog is unlike anything im aginable.
T h e i d e a i s N O T t o s i m p l y a b s o r b o d o r s t o d e f e a t a d o g 's sniffer. You won't be able to because you can't determ ine what he
can't sm e l l . I f y o u s p o k e t o s o m eone who was totally colour blind from birth, who had never seen colours - ever and attem p t e d
to describe the colour green to him ; what would you do to com m u n i c a t e t h a t ? T h a t ' s t h e c o n c e p t . B e c a u s e t h e d o g h a s a s e n s e
that you or I can never com prehend....
You CAN overload that sense. But you must m ake sure you understand what it can do to begin with. If the "reward" scent is
detected at all, the dog will posture, etc.
paul88 Novem ber 23rd, 2007, 05:41 PM

Yes I am wanting to defeat dogs in the off chance that they will be present.
How would you "overload" a dogs sm ell without being detected b y the hum a n n o s e ?
Charles Owlen Picket Novem ber 24th, 2007, 08:41 AM

The very sen sitivity is used against the nose owner.
T h e u s e o f s o m ething that irritates (perhaps to an extrem e) but is at low levels e nough to m aintain itself from the hum a n
nose is in order. There are m any thing s that co u l d b e u s e d b u t t o m ake chlorine gas is ve ry simple. If this process (of gas
production) were to be slowed up to the extent that the gas would either continue OR be available on a residual level, you m a y
have a winner. There are othe rs; I will introduce a concept, rather than specifics.
CS crystals would be m y personal idea as it fills the bill of an irritant, yet is maintain-able for several days, etc to deal with
tim e delay. My point is to use an irritant so as to stop the reward odor from registering. This is the general concept and it
m a k e s l o g i c a l s e n s e . Y o u c a n n o t " m a s k " , y o u m ust produce irritation to defeat the "reward" perception. Therefore, you need to
m inimize the prim ary thing to the absolute best of your ability and cover that with a TRUE irritant. This is not rocket science but
not to be taken for granted - the concept is to produce discom fo rt so as to work within the training mechanism o f t h e d o g ' s
reactive dynamic. If that concept is well thought out; it will defea t Fido.
This can be investigated from the stan dpoint of "detection training" and areas that have irritants existing. I didn't invent the
concept. I read about the problem s o f d e t e c t i o n a n d e x t r a p o l a t e d t h e i d e a .
monkeyboy D e c e m ber 6th, 2007, 07:32 PM
Table: Scent-Detectin g C e l l s i n P e o p l e a n d D o g B r e e d s
Species........................................... .........Num ber of Scent Receptors
H u m ans............................................ ........ 5 million
Dachshund......................................... ......25 million
Fox Terrier........................................... ...147 million
Beagle............................................ ........22 5 m illion
German Shepherd......................................225 million
Bloo dhound........................................ ......300 million
I'm k i n d a f o n d o f u s i n g a v a c u u m s e a l - a - m eal, washing EVERYTHING with soap & water, vacuum seal-a-me aling it again,
washing again, placing in tinfoil with ca psicum, placing in a ziplock bag, placing in a tightly seal-able jar with dish soap...
but YMMV.
Also using th e private shippers such as U PS m ay m ake a difference, or n ot?
paul88 D e c e m ber 11th, 2007, 08:13 PM

D o e s U P S h a ve there packages checked by dogs or wha t? I havent the slightest clue as to how the m ail system works
Charles Owlen Picket D e c e m ber 12th, 2007, 10:04 AM

I (personally) would never tak e the inform ation received on an internet source as gospel for anything I could not ve rify. The
use of dogs or the use of an electronic sniffer may be in place for m any reasons for m a n y d i f f e r e n t t h i n g s . T h e u s e o f a d o g i s
generally lim ited to governme nt entities as they are m ostly contracted [except in areas where they have full-time in - h o u s e
m echanisms for the maintena nce of the animals].
However.... if the governm ent has a query about the transport of drugs via UPS or any other company, you can bet they will be
there with their dogs! On the other hand anything that routs by air will be sniffed; public or private. If it eve n links b y air - it will
b e s n i f f e d . T h e s e a r e very significant issues that will never be disclosed publicly a s they are public safety issues...so that
getting concrete answers of what, who, when, where will never be available.....nor should they be if the people in charge have
"brain one". Bottom line....think that e verything will be sniffed and act accordingly.
oskarchem D e c e m ber 13th, 2007, 03:33 PM

Hey, I don't know where but I heard th at if you put fresh ground coffee a round the dogs won't be able to sm ell it. W h a t d o y o u
think about that?
mr_h3x D e c e m ber 29th, 2007, 11:43 PM

Hey, I don't know where but I heard th at if you put fresh ground coffee a round the dogs won't be able to sm ell it. W h a t d o y o u
think about that?
As was pointed out already, a drug dog sm ells all of the scents and can differentiate between various sm ells (that they are
trained to de tect). The coffee doesn't take away the chemical signature of what is packed in it it sim ply hides it am ongst oth er
s m e lls. For h umans this works. It may even work on a poorly tra ined dog, but I wouldn't b et on a poorly trained dog to be
e m ployed for this kind of work.
Y o u p r o b a b l y h e a r d a bout it in the movies.
Merck April 6th, 2008, 01:17 PM

C a r b o n p a p e r w r a p p e d p a c k a g e s d o h a v e s o m e effect on dog detection. If carbon paper is noticed as a m aterial used in
packing it will be opened for further investigation.
Liquid imm ersion is e ffective.
See DEA m icrogram p ublication for further useful information.
__________
Moderator co m m entary:
I h a v e n o t h e a r d o f a "DEA m ircogram " publication, could you please sight specifics & date? If there is an interrelationship
between the carbon p aper & dog detection, is that an elem ent of the dog detecting the pa per or th e e x i s t e n c e o f t h e p a p e r
itself? All the se points are things that would have helped a great deal in your post. Note that posts that ma ke it on the board
are read by (perhaps) hundreds of tho usands of people.
ONLY April 9th, 2008, 08:30 PM

I ve h eard tha t UPS X- rays their packages. But they do not X-ray overnight deliverys! Not to s ure of how good this info is but
a c o u p l e o f y e a r s a g o o n e o f m y close friends m ailed an eight ball of crystal meth from Atlanta GA to som e hole in the wall
town in Tennessee via over night using U PS. Hope this helps.
Merck April 10th, 2008, 07:47 PM

I did not intent to be glib in m y response, allow m e t o e x p o u n d .
The dea (intentionally not cap italized) has a monthly publication on their website, actually two of them , d e e m e d t h e m icrogram
bulletin and the m icrogram journal. The form er detailing discove ries m ade in whatever m anner by that agency pertaining to
faile d sm uggling attem pts, the latter involving chem ical consista ncy of substances found in different locatio n s ( a l t h o u g h t h e
two topics are somewhat co-m ingled). The journal is a bit secretive as far as footnote sources but som e a r e p r e s e n t e d .
C a r b o n p a p e r is a trend well d ocum ented in the bulletin section of their online publication & a personal contact whom is a
U . P . S . e m p l o y e e h a n d l i n g p a c k a g e s m e n t i o n e d a m e m o p e r t a i n i n g t o d a m a g e d p a c k a g e s o r o u t e r l a y e r o f a p a c k a ge with a
description specifically of carbon paper to be im m e d i a t e ly flagge d for further inspection. The mann er in which it was mentioned
specified it as being an attempt to defeat olfactory detection of illicit drugs.
Liquid imm ersion does infact work, everytim e ( I f n o t c o n t a m i n a t e d d u r i n g p a c k a g i n g ) , d u e t o v a p o r s b e i n g u n a b l e t o p e n e t r a t e
certain liquids. Allow m e m y discretion in not mentioning specifics here as most can surely research & incorporate su ch tactics
on their own and as not to subject existing techniques to further investigation.
phrankinsteyn April 11th, 2008, 02:02 AM

Here is a link to a web site that sells odor proof bags, u sed for bears and such. Prices are decent but shipping is a little high . I
have purchased a few item s from them over the years .............
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com
search: odor proof bags

item #: BAG-202
Merck June 8th, 2008, 09:07 AM

A method that is rarely discovered and is currently em ployed in strict circum stance is the introduction of properly packaged
foreign m ate rial into functioning herm etically sealed system s. Non-condu ctive adhesive is very m uch a consideration in this
instance.

Anything that is a good oxyge n barrier will work , surely?
If I were sending som ething that sm elled of so mething, I'd seal it inside an electrostatic bag with a packet of activated carbon
and a packet of silica gel. I'd probably then wash the outer bag with various thing s to remove any volatiles, before putting that
i n s i d e a s e c o n d m ore standard coverin g for postage.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Shop-Built Lathe Accecories
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a3990918 D e c e m ber 5th, 2007, 02:14 AM

S o m e older articles showing the construction of some helpfull lathe accessories. T h o u g h m ost of these were originally m a d e f o r
a 9" Southbend style lathe, th ey can be easily adapted to other lathe types... Enjoy
http://rapidshare.de/files/379 76999/Shop-Built_Lathe_Accecories.rar.htm l

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Anybody have a "Cummins" mini-lathe?
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jpsmith123 December 30th, 2007, 01:34 PM

I'm thinking about buying a small lathe as I'm getting tired of having to go to a machine shop to have small parts made whenever I want to do something.
I'm wondering, does anyone have a "Cummins (http://w ww.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,876,0.htm)" mini-lathe, and if so, how do you like it?
a3990918 December 30th, 2007, 06:54 PM

I'm wondering, does anyone have a "Cummins (http://w ww.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,876,0.htm)" mini-lathe, and if so, how do you like it?
I don't have one myself but you might try joining a couple of the groups on Yahoo devoted to the "Mini-Lathes". The link will take you to a listing of the mini-lathe groups.
http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=7x10
wymanthescienceman December 31st, 2007, 07:28 AM

I actually happen to have one of these lathes and they aren't too bad considering the price of them.
I bought mine from the Cummins website around January this year and so far I haven't had many complaints other than mine is ugly-ass yellow . You should go to the Mini-
Lathe (http://www .mini-lathe.com/) site as they have alot of tips and tricks on how to improve it. And the site Little Machine Shop (http://www .littlemachineshop.com) has alot
of tools and parts for it.
A few things I would have changed about it:
1. Plastic gears - Almost all of the gears are plastic, although I havent had one break yet as I do light duty work, it would have been nice to have metal ones.
2. Brass Cross-Feed "nut" - The piece of square stock that guides the cross-feed bolt is made of brass and I soon stripped one of the holes that holds 2 screws which adjusts
tension on the cross-feed. Mine is a little outta wack now so I need to make a new one. Would have been nice to have it made of steel.
3. Cross-feed range - I found that the cross-feed should have been designed to come back about an inch farther than it does. When fully retracted the tool holder has about 1/
8" clearance of the outside of the chuck. With your tool bit out about 1/2" it makes the max diameter of your work piece limited to about 3". This has limited me a few times
but if you stay small you'll be fine.
4. NO LATHE DOGS :( - Would've been nice to have a couple...
5. Tool Holder Flex - When working harder metals like stainless and cold rolled steels, the tool bit holder will flex down and your bit can cut deep into the work. This has
happened to me a few times and I don't like it, all I can do to remedy it is take much smaller and slower cuts.
My advice would be to get some good tool bits (the included ones aren't the greatest) and maybe a live center and lathe dogs if needed, along with reading up a bit on lathe
work and tool grinding if you're not familiar. If you have the money, buy a quick change tool holder, it is most likely more sturdy and w ill make working with multiple bits alot
faster and there won't be a need for using feeler gages to adjust tool bit height.
All in all I think it's a fine lathe for small work. It seems to have plenty of power for what I do and as long as you don't abuse it and take care of it, it will last quite a while I
think. I have worked Stainless, Cold rolled steel, Aluminum, Brass, Wood, PVC and Teflon without any problems. I don't use mine all that often, probably 20-30 times so far this
year, I mostly just love to have it around when certain things pop up that need the use of a lathe. But I tell you what, I would be rather sad if I had to give it up, because I
know as soon as I do I'll need it again.
Charles Owlen Picket December 31st, 2007, 09:50 AM

+ 1
[I have a mini-lath, it's an oldie.] But I can't honestly recommend bargain products. Today, if you don't want to spend a lot, most people buy Chinese; I just can't bring myself
to do that. I don't know how much it would cost to buy something from a country with high quality steel but I suppose the price is right on the Cummins.... Just be prepared to
repair it on occasion, etc.
megalomania December 31st, 2007, 07:29 PM

Those Chinese tools are cheap for a reason... Search for a used version of quality tools first, but unless you are a casual user, it is invariably worth the extra cost for durability
and longevity. Too much of that Chinese crap is so bad it breaks within a few months to a year. They want you to keep coming back for more, in the long run you end up
spending more money.
BeerWolf January 1st, 2008, 02:36 PM

I have the Harbor freight version of this lathe, as well as their mini milling machine.
It helps to consider them as a "you finish it" kit, rather than a "ready to go" machine.
The casting were very good, but the assembly was horrid. I found casting sand in the bearings, flash not ground off in important places, and gibs not even finish cut, much less
polished.
That being said, they clean to to rather nice machines, if you have the time and skills to fix them up. I'm semi-retired, so spending days drawfiling and polishing the gibs by
hand were not a big thing, compared to the money saved.
If you don't know how to do these things, or can't spend the time, best spend more, and get one better finished, or good used tool.
jpsmith123 January 2nd, 2008, 06:32 PM

My next question is: is it practical to teach myself to use it?
I know basically how a lathe operates, but as of yet I have no experience operating one.
My first potential uses would be to bore holes in the center of small flanges, face the flanges, and in another project, to put a hemispherical end on a graphite rod (I assume I'll
need some kind of ball-turning tool for that). I wonder, are these the kinds of things I could do without formal training (I realize I w ill make some mistakes and ruin some
parts)?
wymanthescienceman January 2nd, 2008, 08:16 PM

I don't see why you couldn't teach yourself how to use a lathe, when I bought mine I had only previously used a large floor model lathe in machine shop class to turn a small
tapered hammer handle, once. Through some practice on scrap pieces of stock you can w ork your way up to operating a lathe w ith good enough skill to do the types of things
you w ant to do. I would suggest practicing quite a bit with the materials you want to use so you get a feel for how you're gonna do it.
Thankfully there are videos and books available from various sources that teach basic to advanced lathe operations that you can learn from. If I knew the link to the torrent that
I got those videos from I would let you know, but I'm pretty sure I found it somewhere on this forum. A search for "Metal Lathe" should turn up something. If you really want
formal training then go for it, I bet there w ould be basic classes on running a lathe somewhere in your area. Hands on training w ith a good instructor could only benefit you IMO.
The types of procedures you said you want to do can be done with a bit of practice and the right tools. Fortunately the Little Machine Shop site sells Radius/Ball turning
attachments for the Mini Lathes, albeit a little on the spendy side at $90-$140. You should be able to get whatever you need from there, but there are other sources to cut
costs, I've found quite a few of my tools on eBay.
pyromaniac_guy January 3rd, 2008, 03:21 AM

Those Chinese tools are cheap for a reason... Search for a used version of quality tools first, but unless you are a casual user, it is invariably worth the extra cost for durability
and longevity. Too much of that Chinese crap is so bad it breaks within a few months to a year. They want you to keep coming back for more, in the long run you end up
spending more money.
QFE
I paid 300$ for my Bridgeport mill with x axis pow er feed and 2 axis DRO at a surplus auction. Now I realize that not everyone can afford the money, space, or power for such a
tool, but looking for a good (nay, great) deal on a quality used machine is the way to go!
Charles Owlen Picket January 3rd, 2008, 09:39 AM

I know basically how a lathe operates, but as of yet I have no experience operating one.
I have had machinists in my family for generations. It has general principals as does specific machine operation (lathes, etc). The idea is to acquaint oneself with standards of
operation and practice. Continue till it becomes second nature. Then one's own creativity will either surface or not and that w ill be the determinate weather you are to be a good
machinist or a great one.
a3990918 January 14th, 2008, 08:49 PM

How big of an item are you planning on turning? I have 3 metal lathes that cover the gamet of what I need them for. Instead of buying a new , Chinese, mini lathe you might
consider a Unimat or even bump up to an AA109 style Craftsman and/or Dunlap type lathe. I have both and betw een the 2 they can handle just about any small job. The
Unimat does a good job on turning pistol barrel profiles. If I can't turn what I need on these 2 lathes then I put it on my 9"x48" Mod.A Southbend.
The good things about these lathes are they were all made of metal anf built to last. The Southbend and Dunlap are U.S. made and the Unimat is imported from Austria. Though
they haven't been made in several years, parts and accys are readily available. Price will set you back about the same as a well optioned Chinese plastic fantastic.
BeerWolf January 15th, 2008, 11:14 PM

Yes, you can. Your parts won't be very good at first, but you'll learn.
Here's a website with free downloadable books on lathe operation:
http://wewilliams.net/SBLibrary.htm
Most of these are very old, but for the small home lathe, the techniques haven't changed much.
jrrdw January 17th, 2008, 09:52 AM

I would like to suggest a quick change gear box no matter witch lathe you choose. I have the Harbor Freight 8" X 12" manual gear box. It is a pain in the butt to change and re
adjust the gear rack. Other then that I have no complaints. Practice makes perfect!
tmp January 17th, 2008, 06:04 PM

I'm considering buying one these for multi-applications: metal, plastic, and
wood. Sears has the Craftsman and Jet minis. Does anybody have any
information on the Jets ? The idea of plastic gears in the Chinese-made
lathes doesn't give the feeling of something "reliable". On the net, the
Unimats seem to be the favorite among hobbyists.
a3990918 January 17th, 2008, 10:37 PM

I'm considering buying one these for multi-applications: metal, plastic, and
wood. Sears has the Craftsman and Jet minis. Does anybody have any
information on the Jets ? The idea of plastic gears in the Chinese-made
lathes doesn't give the feeling of something "reliable". On the net, the
Unimats seem to be the favorite among hobbyists.s.
Don't know about the Jet Minis, but the full size Jet lathes are fairly good and very popular with hobbyist metalw orkers. Don't have any experience with the new Craftsman
lathes.
I really like my Unimat, the only problem with it is they have become collectable items and the prices have been driven upwards in recent years. If you want a good, quality
lathe about the size of the Unimat, check into the Sherline brand of lathes. I have had one of these in the past and they are a very good, currently produced lathe.
a3990918 January 17th, 2008, 10:40 PM

I would like to suggest a quick change gear box no matter witch lathe you choose.
Do they make a mini lathe with a quick change gear box?? I have never seen one but I'm sure if there's a market for it, someone will make one.
jrrdw January 18th, 2008, 11:35 AM

Do they make a mini lathe with a quick change gear box?? I have never seen one but I'm sure if there's a market for it, someone will make one.
http://ww w.mini-lathe.com/Mini_lathe/Features/features.htm
Here is a page from minilathe.com. It shows a 7" X 10" w ith a two lever gear box. One lever for high and low range, another lever for the tumbler gears. Sieg built the lathe in
the pictures.
About the plastic gears, they are very tough. As long as you don't run the carrage into the turning chuck and jam it up, you shouldn't have any problems with them. The drive
belt w ould probly just slip anyway.
My 8" X 12" Harbor Freight has metal change gears. Mine is built by Central Machinary. :)
a3990918 January 18th, 2008, 08:33 PM

[QUOTE=jrrdw;99636Here is a page from minilathe.com. It show s a 7" X 10" with a two lever gear box. One lever for high and low range, another lever for the tumbler gears.
Sieg built the lathe in the pictures.
My 8" X 12" Harbor Freight has metal change gears. Mine is built by Central Machinary. :)[/QUOTE]
My mistake for not being specific. The quick-change gear box, w hen dealing with a metal lathe, deals with threading & leadscrew speed, not w ith the spindle speed. With a
metal lathe w/out a QC gear box, you have a set of gears that you have to manually install on the lathe so the carriage will move along the work, via the leadscrew, at the
right speed to cut the correct thread pitch. To cut 10tpi you would use one set of gears but to cut 8tpi you have to change (Hence the name change gears) the gearing to
another set. On a lathe that has a QC gear box, you don't have to change the gears, just move a lever or 2 (Depending upon the make & style of lathe).
The tumbler gears basically pertain to forw ard and reverse.
From the website you listed above:
"Cutting Screw Threads

With the supplied gears, the lathe can cut a variety of threads - many more, in fact, than are listed on the chart on the gear cover"
AND
"Additional gears (not show n) are provided and together allow the lathe to cut a wide variety of inch and metric threads. Expensive lathes have gear sets attached to quick
change levers to quickly and conveniently select the desired thread. On this lathe you must manually remove and add the proper gears each time you need a different thread
pitch. This is a pain, but for most users, threadcutting is done infrequently, so the invconvenience is tolerable":(
Not saying that nobady makes one ( I have seen a one off, mini lathe w/QC gearbox. Machinist made it for his own personal use) but I have never seen a commercially made
mini w ith QC.

a3990918 - Don't double post. It's bad joo joo and w ill get you banned. You can edit your previous posts for up to an hour after you post them (I believe).
Also, use the preview button before you post. It will help prevent coding errors like in your previous post (you are missing a ] in between 99636 and Here)
Remember to check your spelling too. Nobody makes mistakes like "nobady"
Anformula January 23rd, 2008, 02:50 PM

Someone briefly mentioned the Emco Unimat, and I wanted to add my two cents as I have had one for years....
A lot of the mini-lathes IMHO are pretty cheesy little pieces of crap, intended for turning wood or plastic or very soft metal at best.
The Unimats are quality machines like the best full sized lathes you can buy. They are just designed for smaller, more precise w ork. You can frequently find the Unimats on
Ebay. I got mine that way and it was truly a steal.
Anyway, if in the market for a small lathe, I highly recommend them!
jpsmith123 February 4th, 2008, 05:40 PM

I can't believe my shitty luck: I had essentially decided on the Cummins 7"x12" lathe; not bad quality...pretty good owner reviews...lots of accessories included...at a decent
good price ($370.00 on ebay)...and now, two weeks before I'm due to receive my income tax refund (which I was planning on using to pay for it)...the seller stops listing them
on ebay, and I'm told that they've been discontinued :mad:!
jrrdw February 4th, 2008, 10:05 PM

jpsmith123, you still have plenty of options. The 8"X12" I have from Harbor Freight is wonderful compaired to not having one at all.
jpsmith123 February 5th, 2008, 12:39 AM

I'm thinking about that 8"x12"...the biggest disadvantage for me is the w eight...given my present situation (someday I'll have a bigger, better place to work, but not right now
unfortunately).
Can it be easily disassembled into more manageable chunks if it needs to be moved around? (I think when assembled it weighs almost twice as much as a 7"x12", maybe 200
lbs. or so, right?)
Charles Owlen Picket February 5th, 2008, 09:46 AM

That's God telling you to buy the Unimat....
jpsmith123 February 5th, 2008, 11:21 AM

I'm worried I'm being steered to get the Micro-Mark MicroLux model 82710...at about double the price (w ith the same amount of accessories included).
jrrdw February 6th, 2008, 07:55 AM

"Can it be easily disassembled into more manageable chunks if it needs to be moved around? (I think w hen assembled it w eighs almost tw ice as much as a 7"x12", maybe 200
lbs. or so, right?)"
If I remember correctly the weight is 242 lbs. You can go to Harbor Freight and download ow ners manauls in PDF format. It has a complete break down diagram so you can see
what will be involved with disassembly. Very simple to do.

Would anyone mind giving an opinion on this lathe? Also, which of the accessories shown would you consider a necessity? Thanks.
http://ww w.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID= RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Product&ID= 82710
jrrdw February 11th, 2008, 08:27 AM

It's basicly the same as the Harbor Freight 8X12, but smaller and cost more w ith less tooling.
Copy and paste that http, server isn't going to allow the link.

As it turns out the Cummins lathe is back (apparently the lady mis-spoke when she told me it's "no longer available"), and although its price is relatively low for what you're
getting, it seems the HF 8"x12" or the Lathemaster 8"x14" are better machines...although the heavier weight is a big disadvantage in my case.
Jrrdw, is your HF 8"x12" actually 12" betw een centers? I saw a review on the internet somew here w here the ow ner was claiming that his HF is actually 8"x14" and identical to
the Lathemaster 8"x14" (except for color I think).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > C apacitor Bank
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View Full Version : Capacitor Bank
armageddon11 January 27th , 2008, 09:49 AM

Hi.
I was just wandering as to how I would wire up a capacitor bank. I have searched all over the internet and have only found
instructions that show how to m a k e s m all ones with disposable cam eras. I have recently bought a load of capacitors to m a k e a
capacitor bank which i could then connect to coil guns, rail guns and other high powered devices.
The main point is:

D o I n e e d t o p u t a d i o d e / m ultiple diodes on the capacitor bank to prevent it discharging when I am charging it? i am worried
that when the capacitors are charging, they will try to discharge back into the batteries (it is quite h ard to explain.) Or can i just
connect the wires to the capacitors and charge them straight up without a ny diode s or resistors or anything else.
Thanks in advance.

You need a 1-way diode thingy(it only allows current to flow 1 wa y) from the batte ry into the capacitors. Then just hook em
up(in series or parallel) depending on what you need it for(railgun/coilgun?)
ETCS (Ret) February 22nd, 2008, 08:58 P M

The charging source of current (power supply) must feed the capacitor charge current through a diode with adequate voltage
and current ratings. T his is to prevent the capacitors from discha rging back into the power supply.
Bear in m ind that even a relatively small capacitor (20 microfarads) charged to just 100 volts will contain enough energy to be
hazardous and can deliver a stunning shock should the wires be touched in such a way that it would discharge through the
fingers or, worse, through both hands into the chest.
Capacitor banks will typically be several large capacitors parallel connected with a total cap a c i t a n c e o f h u n d r e d s o r t h o u s a n d s o f
m icrofarads. This amount of capacitance charged just to 100 volts would be lethal. Charge d to 300 volts it would contain
enough energy to be as hazardous as an explosive material.
W orking with capacito r b a n k s i s e x c e e d i n g l y d a n g e r o u s a n d o n e m u s t b e well educated in Electricity, Capacitive Discharge, and

Safety Procedures. Never work on any high voltage, high capacitance system by yourself and always wear heavy insulated
gloves anytime the capacitors are charged. Protective gogles are also a must since capacitive discharge currents can produce
an effect as loud as a detonator cap when the capacitors are shorted, and metallic sparks will fly
Your original post would indicate that your education in Electricity is deficient. Plea se study and learn m uch m o r e b e f o r e y o u
play around with these very dangerous and deadly devices. Seek the assistance of a trained electrican or electronics technican
to guide and teach you.
Zait February 23rd, 2008, 12:46 AM

Your original post would indicate that your education in Electricity is deficient. Plea se study and learn m uch m o r e b e f o r e y o u
play around with these very dangerous and deadly devices. Seek the assistance of a trained electrican or electronics technican
to guide and teach you.
And just in case you can't grasp that simple paragraph...
http://img26 2.imageshack.us/img262/6136/signelectricityla3.jpg
This is definitely a case of what you don't know can easily kill you.
DyD March 9th, 2008, 06:36 PM

The main point is:
D o I n e e d t o p u t a d i o d e / m ultiple diodes on the capacitor bank to prevent it discharging when I am charging it? i am worried
that when the capacitors are charging, they will try to discharge back into the batteries (it is quite h ard to explain.)
Armageddon,
First - powerlabs.org
Second - the short answer is yes, you need a diode, but not to prevent charging the batteries. The capacito rs can only be
charged up to the difference in potential of the batteries, so there will be no curre nt flow after they are fully charged.
T h e d i o d e i s n e e d e d s o t h a t w h e n y o u d i s c h a r g e through a short circuit, the capacitors will not charge them selves in reverse. If
you do not use a diode, you may damage your bank.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Learning to Use SolidWorks 2008
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View Full Version : Learning to Use SolidWorks 2008

I want to move beyond my usual poorly hand drawn sketches of designs and plans for things, so I thought I would try Autodesk Inventor Pro 2008. I have never used
engineering software before, and I am not much for graphics, so this is all quite new to me. I would like to learn to use the engineering software so I can plan detailed
schematics beforehand. I sometimes fall into the measure once, cut twice category, or rather I do too much designing in my head which leads to getting the wrong
components, not getting the right components, and figuring out I need additional components along the way.
The software is very daunting, even to an experienced computer user such as me. I tried to follow along with a few of the help files, but I could not get my stuff to do
the things they were showing. I cant seem to find any video tutorials, video training material, or even training books for Inventor Pro 2008. My preferred method of
learning stuff like this is to watch a training video, I learn best that way, and for graphics related stuff I think videos are better all around.
I dont know if Inventor Pro is too new yet, but I didnt find any Inventor training materials on the net. Perhaps I am looking in the wrong places. I dont frequent
engineering sites, I just stick to the usual places that make video training material like Lynda, Total Training, etc. I found training vids for other Autodesk products, just not
Inventor. I found a few short help guides and brief tutorials on doing a few things, but I am really looking for a more in depth training starting from the basics and covering
what all the damn buttons do. I think the one tutorial I found was for building an aircraft fuselage, a bit too complicated for me to jump right in, and not what I am going to
use Inventor for.
If anyone knows of links to websites that have training materials, some book titles, something that can help me learn this stuff I would appreciate it. I bet as soon as I post this
thread I will find what I am looking for.
I would not be adverse to using a different program, but I gather Inventor is the best and it will be around for a long time, so if I learn it now I can use it forever. Like with
Photoshop, why use a lesser graphics program when Photoshop is number one, has been around for ages, has tons of training material available, has plenty of plugins, and will
probably be around for years? Even if something new comes along to replace Inventor Pro, chances are the new software will use Inventor like features and layouts. Google
SketchUp (sketchup.google.com) is one possible alternative, but I honestly don't think it can compare to Inventor. I don't even know if there are any alternative design
programs that come close to Inventor.

Sounds interesting. Once you get up and running, let us know what you think. I might have to snag a copy.
Safety0ff January 28th, 2008, 08:31 PM

I don't even know if there are any alternative design programs that come close to Inventor.
SolidWorks and Pro-E ( Pro Engineer) are alternatives to Inventor but if you already have Inventor then it's most likely not worth the $'s to switch IMO (academic license prices
are resonable though...) I've only used Pro-E, but I also have Inventor, just haven't installed it yet.
I don't know of any book titles, you could look on amazon possibly...
These program's have so many features but once you get the basics it's not quite so overwhelming. Good luck!

I obtained SolidWorks 2008 yesterday and installed it after reading a few debates about Inventor vs Solidworks. The consensus seems to be SolidWorks is easier to learn from
the start for a beginner, and has more training material available. Both programs do essentially the same thing, but each has its strong points.
I have not actually run the program yet, I have to disable all the services Inventor likes to run at startup with msconfig, then get rid of Indexing Services (now I remember why
I disabled in a couple years ago). I don't like to reboot unless I need to since I have so many windows open, firefox tabs to dozens of sites, this and that document... I lose my
train of thought if I have to shut down.
The price, yes... SolidWorks is more expensive. I will only be "evaluating" the software in "trial" mode.
I did get a handle on making a few simple shapes using the extruder. One simple problem I could not figure out was how to add a hole through a cylindrical object. I added a
hole to a flat shape easy enough, but no matter what I do it will not let me select the curved surface. Help is no help, I found a vague tutorial that didn't help... bah! I also
can't quite figure out how to connect different parts in an assembly file. They just float around and go wherever I don't want them to connect.
Bugger January 30th, 2008, 01:28 PM

There are video and interactive training material for Inventor Pro 11 available for download from rapidshare.com on the following pages:
http://www.ebookee.com/-Video-Training-Autodesk-Inventor_125252.html
http://www.ebookee.com/Autodesk-Inventor-11-Accelerated-Productivity-Solid-Modeling-An-Interactive-Course-for-Autodesk-In_124172.html
http://www.technomac.net/2007/09/autodesk-inventor-11-accelerated.html
charger February 9th, 2008, 02:01 AM

Mega,
A solution to putting holes in curved surfaces is to create a work plane tangent to near the curved surface, and begin a new sketch on that. In an assembly, the first part you
put in will be "grounded" or unmoving, from there you constrain other parts to it and each other by using constrain (press "C")
Alternatively, you can register with Autodesk student community; their boards have been helpful for me in the past.
If you are willing to pay for it, there are video tutorials available http://www.netwind.com/html/inventor-2008-training.html
DarkWrath February 11th, 2008, 11:42 AM

I don't really know if it will work in Inventor (or if Inventor even has this feature) but in most graphics/engineering programs I would just make a cylinder with the radius equal
to the radius of the hole you want to make , intersect it with the object and boolean B-A them together.
This way the first cylinder will disappear and the second object will have a hole in it...

Cant beat the handrawn sketches, but it's good to have those o-so-straight lines :D

Oh I think just about anything beats my hand drawn sketches. I even failed art on purpose in high school. I got yelled at for trying to draw straight lines too. God damn art
hippies can suck my...
Anyway, I have been using SolidWorks for a few weeks now, just a few times really, and I have downloaded several video tutorials that I have not yet had the time to watch.
I rather like it now that I have a few of the basics figured out. I am a far cry away from designing the next space shuttle, or even a lawnmower, but it has already helped me
figure out a few things in my book digitizer.
I actually got stuck on one strange problem. My glass platen is a 50 degree angle from the center place, both together are 100 degrees. The side arm that holds the camera
SHOULD also be at a 50 degree angle, exactly perpendicular with one side of the glass platen. I set these angles in SolidWorks, but the side arm is not perpendicular for some
unfathomable reason.
http://www.roguesci.org/images-forum_posts/book-digitizer.gif
http://www.roguesci.org/images-forum_posts/book-digitizer-down-the-barrel.gif
This may have something to do with the fact I created the side arm part from a previous part that included the base. I was building the entire thing as one big part when I
realized I should build each part as a seperate file and combine them as an assembly. Rather than build each part from scratch again, I just deleted all the other components
until only the side arm was left. Having deleted the original starting point the new part keeps complaining that there are errors. I rebuilt the part, but now since I am already
well underway in my assembly it keeps complaining the new part doesn't match blah blah blah. Stupid program.
I am very disappointed that my version of SolidWorks did not come with the toolbox of parts and fasteners. I thought the office suite was supposed to have that? Either I didn't
install the right version of SolidWorks (it gives you the option to install all the versions from the same DVD, it just depends on your license which will work), or the toolbox is an
addon. Anyone know?
I am wasting my time designing screws and fastners, a few of which are necessary to include because there are a few areas where their dimensions are important to the
design.
I ended up redesigning my cradle too, but that is for the another thread...
Silentnite February 20th, 2008, 12:57 AM

Mega which version do you have? http://www.solidworks.com/pages/products/3dmech.html has the table describing what's included. It doesn't come with basic.

I thought I had SolidWorks Office Premium, but maybe the parts library does not work in trial mode...
Safety0ff February 27th, 2008, 05:05 PM

In case you went back to Inventor Pro 2008. I've been using it for half a week now and I've figured out most the features. It also has some "Try it" tutorials that are helpful. As
for your problem with the glass thing. I don't understand what you're trying to make but here's a tip. Always be aware of how you relate one part to another, because it's a
"parametric feature based solid modeler." I'm still learning how plan ahead the parameters of each feature so that they relate perfectly whenever I make design adjustments.
It'll come with practice/experience.:) And yes, it is better to make separate parts and then assemble them in an assembly. For the fasteners, it's also possible that they're only
available in assembly. Mega, because I don't check this forum often these days, if you want me to reply to a question pm so that I know to check.
megalomania April 1st, 2008, 01:03 AM

It appears I did not install all of the components of SolidWorks the first time around. Now that I had the chance to reinstall it recently, I saw the option for the ToolBox and
other accessories. I am in the habit of not installing any accessories on a new program if I do not know what it does because most of these accessories are annoying scumware
crap.
The latest service pack 3 for solidworks has just been released. There are a few torrents floating around with it. Check out http://www.ozone-torrents.org (need to register to
see the torrents, but it's free, otherwise I would give the direct link). They also have a 4 volume video course for Solidworks 2005-2008. I was somewhat unsuccessfully
downloading this before my computer died, but it works great now. I'll probably get banned for downloading this file since it is my first and I am the only leecher. There is no
way I can avoid screwing up my ratio if there is no one to upload to :(
oddpat April 26th, 2008, 09:02 AM

Perhaps you should upload some hand drawings, and we can have a go at it? Let us know how you intend to turn the pages etc., perhaps someone can contribute.
megalomania April 26th, 2008, 06:16 PM

When I reinstalled SolidWorks a few weeks ago I took care to insure I included all the extra components this time. However, I still did not have the toolbox installed.
I found out once you install solidworks you have to go into the settings and specifically enable the additional features to run. These additional components can be turned on and
off as needed, and they start up when SolidWorks is run.
This seems like a strange way of running software, but it probably conserves system resources by only loading those components you actually wish to use. Adobe and Microsoft
Office products could learn a lesson here...
I have been gathering more and more training materials. I have not watched that many yet except for bits and pieces when I get stuck with a specific problem. I don't really
need to learn the whole program back to front, but the more I do learn the more likely I am to design other things I never would have attempted otherwise.
I found a very nice website with a free part library, http://www.3dcontentcentral.com/ 3D Content Central has catalogs of company and user submitted parts all available for
free downloading. A very useful marketing strategy this is. By using a company's 3D part in your design you are quite likely to buy the parts from the company when you build
the real thing. It is also nice to know what parts are commercially available for design purposes.
monkeyboy April 29th, 2008, 08:03 PM

I have several pdfs about solidworks. If you want any of these, let me know & I'll upload them.
(eBook-CAD)Solidworks Tutorial.pdf
SolidWorks Lessons.pdf
SolidWorks 2005 - Drawing Sketches for the Solid Models - SolidWorks.pdf
Manual 2004 -2005(Solidworks).pdf
Solidworks Manual.pdf
Solidworks - Essentials Course Volume 1&2.pdf
SolidWorks 2005 - Essentials Advanced Assembly Modeling.pdf
Solidworks Advanced Modeling Techniques.pdf
(Ebook) Solidworks Engineering Design With Solid Works.pdf
Assembly Modeling With Solidworks 2005.pdf
Solidcam - Integrated Cam Engine For Solidworks - Manual - Milling Book Vol1 Screen.pdf
SolidCAM - Integrated CAM Engine for SolidWorks - Manual - Milling Book Vol2 Screen.pdf
Rhino Surface Modeling For Solidworks.pdf
Solidworks 2005 - Sheet Metal And Weldments.pdf
Solidworks 2005 - Routing.pdf
Sten Sub machine Gun CAD Model-SolidWorks.zip
Probably more, that's just the first directory I looked in.
Bunch of Mastercam & Rhino stuff, too...

I have all of those except "Solidworks Engineering Design With Solid Works.pdf." Most of the books available online are for old versions, which I am not interested. SolidWorks
2007-2008 are quite similar, but the interface for the older versions is different enough to make training materials with it not very useful.
Many of the books labeled 2005 or 2008 are actually for SolidWorks 2000 or 2001, quite useless.
I am most interested in video tutorials. I have all of the Quasar SolidWorks video tutorials, plus a couple others.
Wallybanger May 24th, 2008, 05:57 AM

From what I have heard, Solidworks is quite easy to learn if you're new to engineering software. I have never used Solidworks but I know it's quite similar to Catia (which I do
use) and that they're both made by the same company. Catia isn't a terrible piece of software and the one advantage it has over Solidworks is that there are a lot of training
materials available for it. I can hook you up with links for both Catia and the training software if you like (They'll be torrent links).
I'll also add that once you know the main principals of 3D CAD (using panes, axis systems, & points to create protrusions, cuts, bends etc) it's quite easy to transfer those skills
to other programs. The main learning curve is with buttons and functionality. My personal recommendation would be to get a copy of ProEngineer Wildfire 3. I find that the ProE
stuff is best CAD software I've used to date.
from what I gather from your other posts I'm operating under the assumption that you're downloading the software, which is good.... most of this stuff costs upwards of 10's of
thousands of dollars to buy.

I did notice some of the features were similar between SolidWorks and Inventor even though I only used Inventor for such a short time. I think I will stick with SolidWorks
because I am stuck with it now for the reasons you gave, the buttons and functions.
I actually can't find a price for SolidWorks, which bodes ill, but it does not matter. I have legit access through my university which has it installed on all the computers in the
engineering department... Piracy is wrong m'kay, it's bad m'kay, just bad m'kay.
borex May 26th, 2008, 05:42 AM

I'm working in CATIA, SOLID EDGE, NX5 and I can't say which is the best. if you want only to do modeling you can choose every one of them. In stress Analise you can have
problems: there are many solvers nx is using NASTRAN is free and don't have many bugs. Soliedge is have integrations with femap catia i dont know I'm been only on one
course but is many manuals in inthernet of catia for free. and it's very popular program. I have account on myigetit internet course for engineers if you want I can give you my
pass. SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH I live in POLAND(CENTRAL EUROPE)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Moderator Note:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your offer was generous but I had to take a quite a bit of time to even make that portion legible. Please have someone help you with the English verbal tense and noun
placement. I know that Central European languages are VERY unique & different from English but the original post could not be understood. English verbs are structured similar
to German, that may help you understand why your post was illegible in it's original form.
PreventerWind51 November 24th, 2008, 03:27 PM

Heres the link to our graphics communication class tutorials on using solidworks.
http://courses.ncsu.edu/gc120/common/solidworks_labs.htm
Its very thorough with step by step instructions, photographs, and a few flash videos, and is up to date with regards to SolidWorks 2008. It does an excellent job of covering
the basics, and works as a great starting point.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > E-books to paper
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iHME February 27th, 2008, 05:39 PM

Long story short:
I have just started to print out som e of my ebooks to paper. Originally I translated or sim ply copied diagram s and text to
paper by hand but thats not a good method when you are copying 2+ pa ges. Originally I used my own printer, but it was slow
and ink costs. Now I just print at schoo l of course I bring in my own paper as the printer is always empty.
And a tip to people going to d o this: At first just put in one or two sheets of paper to see if theres som e s t u f f p e n d i n g t o b e
printed, and then just circle these two sheets until the buffer is empty. You would not waste your precious part on some body
elses works, wouldn't you? ;)
W hat are your m ethods of getting your ebooks to your place of working or do you just use a laptop?
JekyllandHyde March 22nd, 2008, 01:48 AM

P e r s o n a l l y , I k e e p m y files on m y l a p t o p . I a l s o k e e p a b a c k u p c o p y o f a l l m y files on a readable/write-able DVD.
For the books that I want a hard copy of, I print them off m y laser printer, and then I bind them at hom e with a binding
m achine (m y o n e c o s t m e A U $ 5 0 . 0 0 a t O f f i c e W o r k s ) .
Cho! March 24th, 2008, 07:10 PM

I have a laptop running linux that I use to store all of m y info, its a couple of gigs and I am too cheap to pay for dvd's. I may
purchase an external hard drive. Of course all of this is useless without p ower or in the event of an EMP, so putting stuff to
paper is a project of m ine.
iHME March 25th, 2008, 10:19 AM

Hm m... Now that I ha ve printed +1000 pages I have started to think about some sort of book binding. It would certainly help
with +50 pag es long books. I thought about making a "double sided printer". Connecting two ink jet printers to one computer
and putting it so that the first one would print all pair less numbered pag es (1,3,5,7,9...) then the papers would fall in to the
inpu t tray of the second printer that would print the paired numb e r e d p a g e s o n t h e other side, resulting in a nice bo ok with
d o u b l e s i d e d pages. Effectively cutting paper costs to half.

I thought about m a k i n g a " d o uble sided printer". Connecting two ink jet printers to one co mputer... Effectively cutting paper
costs to half.
Sounds like a lot of work for n othing, most prin ters have a setting that allows double sided printing, m y laserjet does it fine,
print all the odd pages, put th e p a g e s b a c k i n t h e p a p e r f e e d a n d p r i n t a l l t h e e v e n s i d e d p a g e s .
iHME March 26th, 2008, 03:47 AM

Sounds like a lot of work for n othing
Thats true. It would n eed a pretty large amount of work for nothing useful.
But being a person who likes tinkering it is no surprise that I come up with som ething like that. Anyway I need to look m ore in
t o b o o k b i n d i n g , c o u l d s o m e o n e p e r h a p s u p l o a d a b o o k about it? :)
Lenkers March 26th, 2008, 03:58 PM

First print the even pages and than the uneven p a g e s o n t h e o t h e r s i d e o f t h e s h e e t , s o y o u d o n t n e e d t o t u r n t h e m
afterwards. Make som e marks on your printer, how you have to put the pages into the tray. W ell, its som etim es a bit confusing
;).
My oki laser printer jams frequently, if i print m o r e t h a n 2 0 p a g e s a t o n c e . W hat i m e a n i s : b u y a h e a v y d u ty printer! That will
s a f e a peck of trouble.

(B)b eing a person who likes tinkering it is no surprise that I com e up with som ething like that.
Tink ering is the m oth er of useless invention. :)
Anyway I need to look more in to book binding, could som e one perhaps upload a book about it? :)
There are plenty of sites onlin e, perfect bound (with glue) seems to be the way to go, just search "bookbinding", and try
YouTube, I believe they even have vid eos.
monkeyboy March 27th, 2008, 02:12 AM

I kinda like fineprint:
FinePrint
Use FinePrint to significantly reduce printing costs while enhancing and m a n a g i n g c o m plex print jobs.
save paper and ink
dele t e u n w a n t e d p a g e s
print m u l t i p l e p a g e s o n t o a s h e e t
print double-sided
print booklets
create electronic letterhead
add waterma rks, headers, foo ters
save as JPEG, TIF, BMP
www.fineprint.com
Older version (with reg code), works for me:

http://rapidshare.com /files/102686827/tacos.rar
It installs as a printer driver & intercepts print jobs, then allows you to lay them out - 2 sid e d , 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 t o a p a g e , e v e n s , o d d s ,
etc...
Perfect binding is NIC E. But I usually use comb binding. You can get a box of 25 com bs for $3-$5. Then just use the com b
punch m achine for free at most O ffice Depots, Kinko's & O f f i c e M a x m a y h a v e t h e m , t o o .

I kinda like fineprint:
FinePrint
Older version (with reg code), works for me:
Sounds good, I'll give ti a try, thanks.
Perfect binding is NIC E. But I usually use comb binding. You can get a box of 25 com bs for $3-$5. Then just use the com b
punch m achine for free at most O ffice Depots, Kinko's & O f f i c e M a x m a y h a v e t h e m , t o o .
All that m atters is that the book is there when you need it.

There are printers that print on both sides of the paper at the same tim e. If you are going to print a large num b e r o f p a g e s I
suggest getting a laser printer, one of the older black and white varieties can be had rather inexpensively nowadays.
I try to score free printing if I can swing it. I once tried printing m y entire collections of patents at work until I jamm e d u p t h e
printer... then I found out it had a counter, date and tim e code, and logs which computer sends the print comm a n d s . S o m e
libra ries or universitie s m ight offer free printing ... at the very least you m a y b e a b l e t o s c o r e s o m e paper.
I n k m iser software and ink refills would be the way to go to save m oney. The cost of printer ink from retailers is mo re than
D o m Perigno n by volum e! I bought m y printer after researching Consumer R eports, it has the lowest cost p er page at its
reso lution (a little less than 4 cents pe r page). A laser printer would cost less.
F o r b i n d i n g I l i k e t o u s e a 3 h o l e p u n c h a n d p u t the pages in a 3 ring binder. There are certainly instructions online about
b e t t e r b o o k b inding m ethods. I think one way is to dip the margin side of a stack of pages into hot glue and attach a strip of
bandage before pressing into a hard cover.
If you have the eyes for it the re is software tha n can m iniaturize p r i n t e d t e x t i n t o b o o k l e t f o r m a t , 4 p a g e s o n o n e 8 . 5 x 1 1 p i e c e
o f p a p e r . M a n y b o o k s a r e a l r e a d y i n t h e 6 x 9 f o r m at, and lim iting printed m a r g i n s c a n r e p r o d u c e t h e s e b o o k s a l m ost exactly to
scale.
Demolition Man March 29th, 2008, 01:09 AM

M y d a d h a s s o l d c o p i e r s m y whole life, so cost per copy is etched into m y brain, h eh. If yo u a b s o l u tely m ust print, DON'T go to
Kink os or one of the print on dem and places. The cost per copy there is EXPENSIVE, and you are better off buying a second
h a n d c o p i e r o f f e b a y , l o o k f o r o n e t h a t h a s 5 0 k p e r m o n t h u s a g e . T h i s j u s t m eans you can't run your entire e-book collection
in two days, but space it out so you do n't burn out the consum ables (toner, fusing unit).
That being said, good laser printers are getting cheaper by the day, and sometim es you can even score them free on craigslist
and just have to buy toner, waste tone r cartridges, ect., which, while not cheap, is cheaper and m ore discreet than running "How
t o M a k e M e t h " m anuals at your local library at 10 cents a page.
monkeyboy March 30th, 2008, 07:32 AM

OK, I was thinking ab out posting this after Meg a's post, but thought it might be a bit off topic. But after what Demolition man
had to say, I m ust share/brag:
A c o u p l e y e a r s a g o , I h e l p e d a f r i e n d m ove into a new office space. Over in the corner, there was an old Laser printer. I asked
him what's up with that? He to ld me "P revious tenant left it, it's an Apple, we only use W in dows. You want it?" I go over & peek
at the back. Several ports I don't recognize, an d a parallel port. Carried that beast out to the car, pronto.
It's an Apple Laser writer 16/6 0 0 . C a m e with several bottles of refill toner. The drum is rated at around 450,000 copies. I ge t it
h o m e & hook it up to m y PC, worked like a cha rm .
But it did have a few odd quirks. Thing s I could n't seem to change with the windows driver interface. Researched it a bit, found
out you could either set them by hooking it up to an apple, or by sending postscript comm a n d s t o i t . M a n a g e d t o c h a n g e a
couple things through postscript, but kind of a pain.
Decided I should fill out the ram to the full 32 Meg capability. So I went to the local PC recycler place. They had the ram I was
look ing for for $10. W hen I to ld the guy what I needed it for, he says "I thought you were a dyed in the wool PC guy?" I told
him I h a d i t h o o k e d u p t o a P C , & then about not being able to m ess around with all the settings. So he sold me a fully
functional Ap ple laptop (PowerBook 150)& cable for another $10.
I just leave it hooked up all the tim e, when I need to m ake a change that I can't in windows, I just boot up the Apple. Much
m ore stuff in there, a nd changes effect all print jobs.
Pretty sweet for a printer I'm into a total of $20 for. I th ink I've got abou t 2 0 , 0 0 0 p a g e s o ut of it so far...
Then there's the copier I picked up off CraigsList for free. Came with several CASES of ton er (at $30-$40 a bottle). They'd
bought one of those whiz-bang copiers with a collator, ADF & multiple internal trays. This one cam e with a b unch of trays (6 or
7, I'd have to go dig through & count 'em ), you just have to change them out to use a different size or orientation of paper.
I've ran over a 100,000 copies on it, the heater thingy went bad, but I picked up another on the net for $40.
Just recently picked u p an offset press for free off Craig sList, too. MultiLith 1250. But I haven't done any th ing with it yet. I'm
goin g to have to read up on h ow to m ake it work first. Way too m any knobs & levers that I have no idea what do...
Also several inkjets that I've been refilling for ever. Not to endorse anybody in pa rticular, but Kalvins.com h a s a w e s o m e
instructions for refillin g all kinds of cartridges. If you buy a "Universal Ink/toner refill system" for around $20-$25, it com es
with all of them on CD(plus the tools), or you can look an individual cartridge up on their web site. Sometim e s y o u c a n g e t t h e
k i t s o n s a l e f o r $ 1 5 . M a k e s t h e cost fo r refills less than $2-$3/color.
The maintenance guy at a local school told me they were going to throw out a bunch of refill stuff, because nobody could figure
out how to use them correctly. So I snagged that. A whole bunch of 12 oz bottles of ink. So m y cost is going to be $0 for a
looo ng while.
Probably have to buy new em pty carts from Kalvins now & then, as the print heads wear out after a while. If you refill
im m ediately, they seem to last a coup l e d o z e n tim es. If you let them dry out at all, m uch less.
Official (old) cheap bastard tip:

A real long tim e ago, I had a dot matrix printer. It cost like $10 for a replacemen t ribbon. I figured out that if you put it in a
b r e a d s a c k , t h e n s p r a y e d a b o u t a 1 / 4 c a n o f W D-40 in there, then left it sealed over night, it was as good as new. Several
tim es!
Demolition Man March 30th, 2008, 11:17 PM

m onkeyboy, I envy you for that setup...the house I'm renting now doesn't have the space nor the power capacity to run even a
laser jet side by side with m y inkjet. Luckily, I'm moving out in month, and my new house will have m y own hom e office area,
s e p a r a t e f r o m living spaces, so I am going to keep my eyes out for a copier (they go up all the time here). The offset printer
will be nice once you get it running.
On topic, I actually have been l o o k i n g a t g o i n g t h e e - b o o k r e a d e r r o u t e f o r m o s t o f m y d o c u m e n t s . I m ostly have them all in

PDF format anyway (with a few exceptions in .lit), and along with m y radical and rougesci related m aterial, I have Project
Gutenberg files, vario us sci-fi books, a nd other electronic book material that I'd like away from the com puter, and don't feel
like paying a fortune in ink and paper to get it in portable form . I've bee n l o o k i n g a t t h e S o n y ( b e c a u s e t h e K i n d l e h a s t o h a v e
it's PDFs converted at $ 0.10 a pop), a n d a n o f f b r a n d C h i n e s e r e a d e r f r o m Hanlin that is slightly more expensive b ut larger e-
ink screen. T hat could be a possibility for you iHME, esp ecially since you can bring dam n n ear your whole collection in SD
form at, and have instant access to chemical tables, expedient arm s plan s, or just plain old entertainm ent
Snake_Eyes April 1st, 2008, 07:22 PM

I usually go to the lib rary and print everything out since it's free. Then I just put all the pages in sheet protectors and put them
i n a b i n d e r . Y o u c a n s p e n d l e s s t h a n 1 5 dollars at staples on a binder and about 200 sheet protectors that'll house pages front
and back and you don't have to make any holes in them .
iHME April 3rd, 2008, 10:07 AM

I'd love to have one of those e-paper/e-ink portables. My current laptop is a 150m hz Dell Latitude XPi CD, new litium ion
battery and a 6gb hdd. It runs W indows 95 (it actually has linux also, but stuffing a distro with a gui to 2gb is beound my sk ills
(tried Deli lin ux(and failed to get it to boot with gui), on ly terminal so far. Only way to get books larger than 1,38m b is to burn
them to a cd. This also creates additional back up for m e in the same time. I can bear the lag in picture rendering and such
but the screen contrast is just so god damn horrible, it is good o nly for palaying red alert (one of the only games th at run well
on it). On the other h and think about the lightnin fast rendering a fps on paper, You can see what you want in a m ater of
seconds! No boot up, no batteries no lag! :p
Now to show som e of my binds, I cam e up with all of the techniq ues by m y self.
I do all m y b i n d s b y h a n d .
Over view of binds (http://s23 6.photobucket.co m / a l b u m s/ff315/iHME/?action=view&current=IMG_5557.jpg)

The major styles shown (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/iHME/?action=view&current=IMG_5556.jpg)
H o m e workshop guns book is hastily b ound with copper wire as m y dremel clone started to produce sm o k e .
The luty and gunpowder books ware bound in my usual style (http://s236.photobucket.com / a l b u m s/ff315/iHME/?
action=view&current=IMG_5555.jpg)
A close shot of perhaps my most clean bind so far. (http://s236.photobu cket.com / a l b u m s/ff315/iHME/?
action=view&current=IMG_5558.jpg)
I just found out that m y school has two color laser that do two sided printing, it is tough harder to get printing un attended a t
them tough.
monkeyboy April 3rd, 2008, 02:41 PM

(it actually has linux also, but stuffing a distro with a gu i t o 2 g b i s b e o u n d m y skills (tried Deli linux(and failed to get it to boot
with gui), only term inal so far.
Try Puppy lin u x . D e s i g n e d f r o m the ground up to also run on older, slower hardware. It m a k e s ' e m sing! I've put it on quite a
few m achines in that range. Som etime s you ha ve to try a few different video settings to get one that'll work on a La ptop.
http://puppylinux.com/
Jefferson D avis April 19th, 2008, 11:36 AM

I have myself started printing my e-books. And found a nice pie ce of software for turning pdfs into booklets. The software is
called CutePDF .There is trial for it and i t d o e s n o t s e e m to expire, just a dds a water m ark to the first page. It allows you to set
m argins, as well as choose wh ich binding type. There is a sm all tutorial o n how it works on youtube. Heres the link http://
youtube.com /watch?v=5Q2ueGUNtKY
Jefferson D avis April 20th, 2008, 10:58 AM

Last night I found a full version of cutePDF with serial. Figured I would sh are it with you all. So no more watermarks on the first
page when printing.
http://rapidshare.com / f i l e s / 1 0 8 9 8 6 8 7 4 / s n d - C u tePDF.Professional.3.3.zip.htm l
Killy April 20th, 2008, 09:07 PM

W hen printing in school or library or sim ilar, be very careful you dont leave a trail that could m a k e y o u s u s p i c i o u s ( l i k e p a g e s
of som e "underground" books)
to em ployees there.
megalomania April 21st, 2008, 12:12 PM

You mean don't leave the rules to Fight Club in the copy machin e ? I n d e e d A N Y T H I N G a b o u t g u n s , e x p l o s i v e s , d r u g s ,
lockpicking, etc. will freak out the average idiot em ployee or soccer m o m . T h e f e d g o v h a s u s e d t h e m e d i a w e l l t o m a k e t h e
s h e e p l e s o p aranoid about inform ation. So much for fre edom of speech when you get hauled in to the Grand Inquisition for
look ing at legal reading m aterial.
Killy April 21st, 2008, 01:52 PM

Heh, I didnt think of that scene from Fight Club but you remind m e of that.
W ell, inform ation is n ot illegal, but to people, you would seem strange if they see what yo u are dealing with ;
possible quote
"Check what shit that weird gu y is always printing"
Sim ilar situation would be if they see you that you down load porn in library, its no t illegal, but its still uncom m on (especially if
you arent teenage anymore)
Of course, it could always turn out that you could possib ly m e e t s o m ebody with same interests on that way, but I guess the
chances are like winning a lottery ticket.
In the end, if som eth ing happens related to yo u, they can gossip to police that you printed that stuff.
iHME April 25th, 2008, 01:38 PM

To cover one s trails is a m ust if printing in a public location. I bring m y own paper. I clear the printing que if I run out of toner
or paper. I also print my files from my usb stick. Next thing would be im plem e n t i n g a h a r d w a r e k e y l o g g e r o n t h e m a c h i n e a n d
starting to use som e o n e e l s e s l o g i n .
Oh, I also aquired a used A3 inkjet printer. I really don't know what to do it with. I haven't had even tim e to test it.
Edit: A quick note the rapidshare captcha is getting m ore and more ridiculous ove r time.
Thorald May 13th, 2008, 05:37 PM

I don't tend to print my eBooks as there are several people who live in m y h o u s e a n d I h a v e t o a l l o w p a p e r f o r t h e m t o u s e ,
as well as m e. W hen I do prin t them o ut I tend to just print certain pages that are of relevance, than the entire eBo o k .
Also I would never print anything other than work from m y schools printers, as they m onitor and keep a record of everything
that is printed. Plus the Comp uter Suite where the printers are located is supervised at all times by a 'Technician' who would
rant at you if you printed Non-School related work. Plus he would probably have a look...
Also as the Internet is mostly blocked on the C o m p u t e r s d u e t o m i s u s e a n d Y a h o o B r i e f c a s e a n d 4 S h a r e d a r e b l o c k e d f r o m

bein g accessed the only way of getting the eBooks in would be via Flash Drive... And too many of them go 'missing'...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Mini-Lathe Mods
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a3990918 February 29th, 2008, 07:59 PM

W hile browsing thru m y files I ran across this one that I had downloaded awhile back. Has 3 easy m ods for the 7" (Asian) Mini-
Lath es. While the Lathe in the article is a Speedway(Hom ier) brand, these m ods will work on most of the 7" m inis
( i e . C u m mins, Central Machinery etc)
Gear C over for the Apron

3c C ollet Closer
Notching Motor Cover for Carriage Clearance
http://rapidshare.com / f i l e s / 9 6 0 3 1 5 8 7 / S p e e d w a y L a t h e M o d s . p d f . h t m l
886kb
No Pass
BeerWolf April 4th, 2008, 09:52 PM

T h e r e a r e a l s o a n u m ber of m i n i l a t h e Y a h o o g r o u p s t h a t h a v e l o a d s o f m o d s a n d a c c e s s o ry drawings.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Basem ent target range
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monkeyboy March 25th, 2008, 09:22 PM

Saw this article over on Moder mechanics:
http://blog.m o d e r n m e c h a n i x . c o m /2008/03/02/build-a-75-foot-target-range-in-your-basem ent/

About how to b u i l d a b a s e m ent target range. I liked it so m uch, I saved the full sized jpgs, converted it to a PDF & OC Red it.
Three pages, 1.6 MB.
http://rapidshare.com / f i l e s / 1 0 2 3 7 9 8 9 8 / b a s e m e n t _ r a n g e . p d f
I think I would put a heavily insulated cover over the target end (like for a sum p pum p), so the slugs could be recovered...
a3990918 March 25th, 2008, 10:26 PM

Great find. Thanks for posting ...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Molding gun fram e s - p o s s i b l e
m e t h o d s a n d m aterials.
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View Full Version : Molding gun frames- possible methods and materials.
mike-hunt March 28th, 2008, 11:47 PM

A n y i d e a s o n Molding gun frames as an alternative to the more costly an d tim e c o n s u m i n g m e t h o d o f m a c h i n e m illing ? If
s o m e one was considering m a n u f a c t u r i n g a s m a l l n u m b er say 10 to 50 identical fram es for a 9 m m s e m i a u t o p i s t o l what
would be an affordable and effective m aterial to use? I was considering a heat resistant plastic reinforced with carbo n fibers or
s o m e kind of ceramic I believe zirconium ceram ic is the m ost su itable but can't find any info on manufacturing methods for
this ceramic.I also found this product called tooling plastic and thought it would be ideal if it could withstand the heat and
stress of gunfire. http://www.h obbysilicone.com/resin.htm #toolin g
T h e r e m ust be past posts on this so far m y searches have only com e up with larg e lists of unrelated posts.
chemdude1999 March 29th, 2008, 11:19 PM

I like your idea and believe it is worth pursuing. However, even m o l d i n g s a n d c a s t i n g s h a v e t o b e f i n i s h e d m achined. I was
goin g to purchase a 6.5 Creedmore rifle this year. Instead I got a sm all m ill (not the m ini-m ill, couple steps up) from Grizzly.
P u t b a c k s o m e m o n e y a n d g e t the right tools. It is well worth it.
I do like the idea of castings. I would be more interested in m etal castings. I know Springfield Arm ory uses investm ent casts
for their M1's. A 9m m handgun wouldn 't need that kind of strength. My concern would be insuring the thorough hom ogeneity in
the m aterial (m etal o r plastic) as inclusions and other im perfections can cause failure.
Perhaps checking out some of the charcoal furnace m ethods of pouring metal and castings is worth another look. It is very
cheap and you could duplicate easily. The key would be the sand molds.
As for plastics, what does Glock use?
mike-hunt March 30th, 2008, 06:29 PM

Metal casting is som ething worth looking into I found th is video on building an AR-15 from a n a l u m i n u m c a s t i n g h t t p : / /
www.diyguns.com /product_info .php?products_id=29
dremel attachm ents should be suitable for any machine work on aluminum or pla stic. som e nice ones here. Http://vanda-
layindustries.com/
I still like the idea of casting in plastic as it only requires mixing two liquids in equal parts and you have a set fram e i n a r o u n d
30 minutes.
The plastic used in Glocks is called "polym er 2 "I can't find m uch inform ation on it . It may be a only used by Glock and
unavailable for perchance as a raw material.
a3990918 March 31st, 2008, 12:29 AM

I also found this product called tooling plastic and thought it would be ideal if it could withstand the heat and stress of gunfire.
The only tooling resin that I have any experien ce with is used fo r filling in warn spots on m achinery beds and ways or to level
out low spots on tables etc. It is very hard and long wearing but alas, I feel it would be way too brittle and unable to withstand
the stress and loads of firing and stopping the slide on recoil.
Metal casting is som ething worth looking into I found th is video on building an AR-15 from a n a l u m i n u m c a s t i n g
This was a forging, not just a standard casting that an ameatur with a charcoal or propane furnace could cast. Forgings are
m any tim es stronger and m ore durable than a casting is.
I know that you are trying to avoid any m achine work, b ut if you can find someone that you trust who has access to a CNC Mill,
I feel that would be the way to go. Write up the program , insert a billet o f whatever the material De Jour is and let it do its
thing. High repeatability and parts inte rchange. You cou ld probably find someone who works at a m a c h i n e s h o p t o d o t h e s e f o r
y o u o n t h e s i d e . J u s t g r e a s e h i s p a l m a little to m a k e t h i n g s g o e a s i e r . . . : D
Demolition Man March 31st, 2008, 11:58 AM

You can cast metals, but, I'd stick with investment casting as opposed to sand casting. Yo u aren't m aking a Gingery Lathe,
you're making a firea rm ...a tiny cannon, held by a person, need s to be tolerant of high pressures.
I'm with a3990918 on this one, CNC m ill it. If you want to do it on your o wn, there are hobbyists out there who have hooked up
C N C e q u i p m ent to the mini-m ills and such that you can get from Harbor Freight. It's not the fastest solution, being such a
s m a ll m ill, but you ca n easily m a k e s e veral sam e-type parts out of the same piece of billet, and m a k e s e v e r a l g u n s i n t h e
tim e it'd take you to hand mill one.
Of course, your own CNC mill would com e in handy for working on your legal guns as well, you can m a k e y o ur own triggers and
such.
hybrid April 9th, 2008, 02:35 PM

Basicaly let me start out by telling you that I have a vast am ount of knowledge on the techniques required to produ ce parts via
hand made or production runs.
Casting plastic in itself is not difficult p ersay bu t it is not in the grasp of m ost civilians tooling wise.
Y o u m u s t u n d e r s t a n d what type of plastic you want to use and m ost of these plastics are a single use item, m e a n i n g that when
if finaly hardens it will not be reusable.
T h e n e x t t h i n g i s u n d erstanding casting techniques in general. To pour cast an item is to have a weak item . In m etals,
pourcastings are generaly dirty, porous and non structural. The first step in creating something stronger is to spin-cast the
part. This is the m old on a turntable and is spun to push the m aterial ou t and com pact it on the outer edges of the molds,
creating a more dense part.
In plastic however, most thing s are pressure ca st. Mean ing that the molten plastic is unde r extrem e pressu r e a n d t h e n o z z l e s
are aligned in the m olds and the product is forcibly pushed into the mold and squeezing out the air.
There are several troubles with plastic m o l d i n g .
1 ) t h e m o l d m u s t b e m a d e . G e n e r a l y t h e s e m olds are m achined out and then fin ished. If you do not know anything about
m old making you will not understand the difficulty of fin ishing. T his is a complex subject that can get into a large discussion.
2) Plastic selection.............wow, there are so m a n y i s s u e s h e r e I m just going to leave it as a serious problem
3 ) E q u i p m e n t . Y o u l l n e e d m ills, lathes, edm burners and various other things to build your prototype and then you have to
m irror it into a m o l d . T h i s c a n t a k e m onths for the skilled person, years for a laym an.
It would be far wiser to get som e com munity college classes on drafting and then cad/cam p r o g r a m m ing. Buy yourself a cheap
u s e d C N C m ill and make yourself the parts. An entire gun can be made with a m i l l a n d l a t h e a n d y o u c a n m a k e a q uality gu n
no less. Trying to go the polym er route without an enou rm ous (and creating an interest in what youre doing) sum of m o n e y i s
a bad idea.
Good luck
mike-hunt April 15th, 2008, 01:42 AM

Yes a c.n.c m i l l d o e s s e a m the way to go and not as expensive as I thirst thought .W ile I am still shore plastic or ceram ic
c a s t i n g w o u l d b e p o s s i b l e t h e t i m e s p e n t e x p e r i m enting and testing would not really m ake it practical and it doesn't look to be
t h e c h e e p a l t e r n a t i v e I h a d h o p e d . T h a n k s t o a l l f o r y o u r h e l p s e e m s I still have quite a bit m ore research and learning to d o.

You could use 2 part liquid plastics tha t catalyze when m i x e d a n d h a r d e n . A family mem ber of m in e u s e s t h e s e i n h i s b u s i n e s s
to m ake larg e structu ral and decorative parts. The hardness of the plastic depends on the ratio of the com p o n e n t s , a n d i n
general it can harden up to a nice high density plastic m aterial.
If you go the extrusion m olding route you will need to exclude a i r a s m o s t p l a s t i c s d e c o m p o s e w h e n e x p o s e d t o o x y g e n

b e y o n d t h e i r m e l t i n g p o i n t . T h e s t e e l b l o c k s n e e d t o b e internally water cooled... I have worked at several com p a n i e s t h a t
m ake plastic extruded parts, duplicating that kind of eq uipm ent is very difficult.
amachinist April 22nd, 2008, 10:38 PM

Loctite produ ces a com pound, Loctite Fixmaster Steel Liquid, could easily be used as a casting material for a fram e b l a n k
with steel inserts for the slides. Examine the Glock and the calico for ideas on how to shape the slides. Secondary coating will
be required, this compund will corrode.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Advanced Materials and Processes.
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Yafmot April 21st, 2008, 07:26 AM

Recently, in a post in the Pyro section, I broached the Idea of a thread devoted to advanced materials and processes, primarily geared toward composites. Bacon suggested I
put it here (I think he's chomping at the bit to make some composite rocket motor casings), so here goes...
We're going to start with Polymer Matrix, Fiber Reinforced Composites, since that's what most people seem interested in. Don't worry, we'll get to the metals and ceramics
soon enough. I'm going to break it down into four areas...
FIBERS: Their manufacture, properties and applications.
MATRIX MATERIALS: similar discussions.
PROCESSING: Vacuum bagging, autoclave curing etc.
DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS: Because it's possible to turn $50K worth of perfectly good graphite into a perfectly useless chunk of shit.
FIBERS: The oldest modern structural fiber is glass. You may have noticed that most of the glass fiber manufacturing plants are in the southeast, or anywhere sand pits can be
found, specifically near-pure fused silica. Such is commonly found in South Carolina, which is why a lot of the plants are located there. The raw material is literally just laying
around.
To turn the sand to glass, it is melted in a furnace to a viscous, flowing form. It is then forced through a device called a spinaret, which is much like a shower nozzle. As it
comes out the other side, it is elongated as it cools, so that when it solidifies, it is very thin. These then are usually treated with a sizing of some sort, frequently a Silane. This
allows for better handling during subsequent processing, as well as improving the "grip" of whatever resin system is ultimately used. The fibers are then gathered into bundles
called "tows," with the number of individual fibers bunched in multiples of a thousand, expressed in "K" (2K, 3K, 4K, 6K, 8, 12 & so on). The smaller ones are used more for
woven cloth, while the bigger ones are generally used for tooling, pultrusion, and filament winding (which will be covered in the processing section).
(By the way, these furnaces are run continuously for up to five years between mainenance shutdowns.)
There are three basic grades of structural glass. "E" glass is the cheap stuff used for secondary or noncritical applications such as wingtips, fairings, hot tubs, shower pans and
the like. This is the type of stuff one would use in a chopper gun, along with cheap polyester resin.
"S" glass is used for highly stressed areas such as landing gear attatch points, spar caps, and helicopter rotor blades that can survive 20mm cannon hits. It's quite expensive,
even more so than many grades of graphite (carbon) fiber. But for some applications, it's hard to beat.
"S-2" glass fits between the other two, toward the high side. It can be used for most of the applications that S glass can, at substantially less cost.
Graphite (carbon) Fiber. There are many more grades of this than there are glass fibers, but there are two basic families, delineated by their precursor materials. They are
Polyacrylonitrile, or PAN based, and pitch based.
The PAN precursor is basically just a really fine, pure grade of Rayon (or Orlon; same stuff).Tows of it are unwound in a heated, inert atmosphere and pyrolyzed under tension.
the carbon remaining to form Graphene rings, and the tension beginning to align the rings to within 15 or so degrees of the longitudinal axis. This is your basic structural carbon
fiber, with a tensile strength of about 120 KSI, and a tensile modulus of about 45 MSI. (I'll explain these properties some more in a moment.) the fiber has now been
elongated by a factor of 10.
If you want a higher performance fiber, both stronger and stiffer, you repeat the process with the temperature bumped up to around 2,200F. You also up the tension, in order
to elongate the fiber by another 10x. This aligns the graphene rings to within 6 degrees of the longitudinal axis. Now you're looking at about 300 KSI tensile strength, and
about 200 MSI tensile modulus. Of course, these are just approximations, to illustrate the effects of various process parameters. By juggling them around, fibers with much
higher strength and stiffness can be had. Just bring money.
The other precursor is Pitch, which is the black, gooey stuff from the bottom of a fractional petroleum distillation tower. We're talkin' sub-asphalt here. It's purified, to get rid of
the various phenols and other species that can interfere with the continuity of a fiber. Then it's squirted through a spinaret into a hot, inert atmosphere, where it solidifies. From
there, it's handled pretty much like PAN carbon, but at a much higher temperature and elongation. The finished fiber is generally used for very high end applications such as
satellite chassis and highly stressed, dimensionally critical Carbon/Carbon composites (I'll cover these later).
There's another type of "black stuff" out there. It's amorphous Carbon fiber made by Nippon Graphite. It's not graphitic at all, though. All the Carbon atoms are randomly
oriented, with no crystalline structure whatsoever. Structurally, its properties are roughly that of E glass, or slightly less. But it does have one very strange & possibly useful
feature. On a demonstration I saw, there was a wedge drop aparratus that would release a 1 Kilo, wedge shaped weight 20 inches onto a bridged, 2x8 cm. specimen of
unidirectional laminate of regular stuff with 1 or 2 plies 90 degrees to the length, just to keep it in one piece. the wedge just fell right through the thing, fracturing all but a
couple of plies. When the demo was performed again, with an almost identical specimen, the wedge just bounced, and kept bouncing for a good 15 or 20 seconds. The only
difference was ONE unidirectional ply of XN-05 amorphous carbon on the compression(!) side of the stack. I'm gonna' get some and try making a crossbow out of it. With that
kind of rebound, it should be awesome!
SYNTHETIC FIBERS: The most well known of these is Kevlar, DuPont's brand of Aramid fiber. The term "Aramid" is a contraction of Aromatic Polyimid. It was first synthesized in
the early '60s, for use in automobile tires. There are different grades of it depending primarily on the application. It's very tough, but not that stiff. Which is to say it'll make a
hell of a kayak, but not much of a wing spar.
Of course, its antiballistic properties are legendary. the last time I worked with any was about a year ago, using some off the shelf Aramid/PVB-Phenolic spall liner as a backing
for some Aluminum/Carbon vehicle armor I can't talk about.
It works with a wide range of polymeric matrix materials, but is somewhat limited in its high temperature capabilities; it starts to let go around 350F.
Spectra fiber: Originally developed by Allied Signal back in the '80s, it's an elongated, crosslinked polyethylene fiber that has an extremely high strength to weight ratio. Oddly
enough, the stuff is crosslinked after it's elongated, unlike an elastomer, which is crosslinked beforehand. So instead of deforming and then rebounding to its original shape, the
links help it resist deformation in the first place.
Unfortunately, there are enough problems to damn the stuff in most applications. For one thing, it is just polyethylene, the same basic stuff as a trash bag. That means its
thermal properties are for shit. It starts to weaken around 240F, and by 260 or so it's just mush. That's why it was abandoned for firefighting vehicles in urban areas. In riot
situations, the local scum will actually shoot at the firefighters. Their vehicles are frequently parked in close proximity to burning buildings, and the armor can easily reach 300F
through radiant heating, instantly ruining the ballistic resistance.
Another problem is that PE is a polyolefin, and like most of these, it is formed in a melt-phase polymerization process. This means that, as it cools, the high molecular weight,
crystalline material (the good stuff) tends to migrate towards the center of the fiber. Meanwhile, the low molecular weight material is rejected toward the surface in an
amorphous state. This stuff has no shear strength, for all practical purposes. That means that the resin system, whatever it might be, has nothing to grab onto. You guys with
some exposure to composites may be aware of interlaminar shear problems. well, this is an inTRAlaminar shear problem. It's exactly analogous to trying to pick up a block of
ice on a hot day. Ice is strong stuff. Just ask any Titanic survivor. If you haul off & punch that block, you'll likely bust a knuckle or two. But if you try to pick it up by placing
your hands on either side and lifting, forget it. Your hand will just slide up, and you might thumb yourself in the eye. This is because, as strong as the crystalline interior of the
ice might be, the stuff on the surface is amorphous, with randomly oriented molecules just bouncing around off of each other.
There are a couple of ways around this. Both involve etching the weak stuff off the surface. One is to send the material out to a shop such as 4th State, who will plasma etch it
off. It'll cost money though. They've got to amortize the acquisition and operational costs, and they've got kids to feed and bills to pay just like anybody else.
The other way is to chemically etch the bad stuff. For this process, you put a whole bunch of Potassium Dichromate in a tank of H2SO4 and soak the fiber in it. This will attack
the low molecular weight stuff, but leave the crystalline material intact, as long as you don;t leave it too long.. Then, of course, you've got to do repeated washings, and then
all of that liquid has to be disposed of, which can get ugly expensive. You're probably much better off with the plasma etch.
This is about as much as I can handle in one sitting. After we hash this part out, I'll cover the matrix materials (the gooey stuff).
Bacon46 April 27th, 2008, 08:29 AM
Very informative post. I can see this going in a number of different directions, but youre right I am chomping at the bit for information on the correct method and
materials for the fabrication of composite rocket motor casings. I am sure there is information out there but it appears that this is your profession and I think you are much
more likely to provide accurate information.
I know this is a spoon feeding request but since you offered.:D
Any information you can provide on this subject would be appreciated.
Charles Owlen Picket April 27th, 2008, 11:43 AM

Carbon fiber is very expensive & difficult to obtain. Go to a high-end bicycle shop and ask if they have any frames that are ruined. I stumbled upon a selection of carbon fiber
tubing in such a way. For $20 I walked away with a selection of carbon fiber tubing that may be worth about $500. I used a water fed saw to cut it to lengths.
Yafmot April 29th, 2008, 10:11 AM

OK, Bacon, I'll start a separate thread on composite rockets, running parallel with the materials info. Where should I put it? The pyro section sounds logical, but so does this
one. Whaddya' think?
Charles, I guess you really DO live at the North Pole! Graphite is neither expensive nor hard to find, unless you go with the REALLY top end stuff. I'm under the impression you
live in Austrailia, is that correct? If it is, there are several manufactuters with offices, or at least reps, who can probably help you out. I also have a SAMPE (Society for the
Advancement of Material and Process Engineering) Buyer's Guide. (Actually, Mine's a little dated, but I can scrounge up a newer one easily enough.) I'll see about hooking you
up with one of the chapters in your area. I'll also find you some manufacturers and reps nearby, as well as some fabricators (GREAT for dumpster diving).
Oh, and I'd definitely be careful with that bicycle stuff you've got. Fiber reinforced composites are anisotropic, so the fibers are oriented specifically for the loads those parts are
designed to bear. Those tubes are designd for flexural loads, so I have some doubts about their ability to handle much in the way of internal pressure. And insulation is, of
course, an issue.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Youtube Account Showcasin g
Gingery Projects
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sbovisjb1 May 18th, 2008, 11:25 PM

http://www.youtube.com / u s e r / a l e x p l a c e 2 0 0 1
I found this user usin g a gingery furna ce and a hom e built gingery lathe. This is to show that he was not bullshitting and it can
be done quite easily (very) if you just put a weekend into it and stop being an arm chair expert and go do it. Soon i will post
m y pictures of m y furnace and lathe and then hopefully the rest of the m a c h i n e s h o p .
Genocyde May 18th, 2008, 11:33 PM

Here's my Gingery furnace, built by m y f a t h e r s o m e 2 5 y e a r s a g o .
And here's a not quite yet com plete tube bender die I have cast from s c r a p a l u m i n u m .
W ell, I can't seem to attach a pic. :confused:
Here's a link to the tube bend er thread I posted at W eldingweb.

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=20127
It shows som e furnace pics.
sbovisjb1 May 19th, 2008, 12:28 AM

You don't have to upload it to the site. Use http://bayimg.com/, they have a 100m b lim it and are not restricted to only picture
extensions. Very interesting read on the tube bender project. C asting is extrem ely interesting and is up there with knife
smithing with m e. I'm not that good at welding, but I have friends who are tradesmen in those are as that gladly help m e o u t.
Interesting p ost and I encourage others to show case theirs as well.
mynameismud May 20th, 2008, 08:45 PM

I have built a Gingery Forge and used it to cast aluminum, brass, copper, zinc, and titaniu m. It took m e a b o u t 3 d a ys to build
once i had all the materials and it has saved m e so much time and money. If you don't own one, i suggest m aking one!
Jefferson D avis May 23rd, 2008, 06:41 AM

I have built a Gingery Forge and used it to cast aluminum, brass, copper, zinc, and titaniu m. It took m e a b o u t 3 d a ys to build
once i had all the materials and it has saved m e so much time and money. If you don't own one, i suggest m aking one!
I was wondering what refractory you are using to handle smelting titanium? Reason I asked is, I built m y forge 3 ye a r s a g o
and have progressed to cast iron. But the refractory is falling apart after 4 melt sessions. I use a modified venturi style burn er
using waste oil.
mynameismud June 16th, 2008, 12:40 PM

I was wondering what refractory you are using to handle smelting titanium? Reason I asked is, I built m y forge 3 ye a r s a g o
and have progressed to cast iron. But the refractory is falling apart after 4 melt sessions. I use a modified venturi style burn er
using waste oil.
I do not know anything about the refractory other than it is high in tungsten and m o l y b d e n u m . I acquired it from a friend wh o
i s a s e v e n t h g e n e r a t i o n b l a c k s m ith and he doe sn't know much about it o ther than it came from a s m all ste e l p l a n t h i s d a d ' s
friend worked at.
I s h o u l d n o t e t h a t i h a v e o n l y u s e d m y gingery forge to m ake titanium s p o n g e f r o m ore. I have to use a vacuum arc furnace
(which unfortunately belongs to m y oceanography teach er, who happens to also be a jewler.) to refine the sponge into pure
titanium m etal.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > Toyota Im mobiliser key coder
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Code Red May 20th, 2008, 10:11 AM

I'm curious to know, if anybody here has seen this tool in action, and does it actually work?
It can be seen on the following link....
http://www.keym a m . c o m / p r o d uct_view.asp?pid=93
Vehicle imm obilisers and coding keys is nothing new to me, but in the last couple of m onths I have noticed this tool being sold
by (probably dodgey) Chinese sites.
W hen you decipher the C hinglish, it's basically telling you you could code a new m aster key to a late model Toyota, without the
u s e o f a n y e x i s t i n g m aster ke ys.
I do know of methods where ECU's are "re-flashed", allowing a new set of keys to be accepted, but I have yet to see or hear of
anyone who has used this tool.
Now, is there a locksmith/auto tech here, who has seen this in action, or knows of people who have purchased and used it?
If in fact this did work like it says, all one would need to do is buy a blank chipped key ($15), obtain the key code for the
particular vehicle (free), get a locksmith to cut it ($15) or even better, clip it yourself, then open th e door with your key, plug in
the "tool", and off you go!
Imagine being able to drive away in your neigh bours nice new Lexus or Landcruiser, and not needing any suspicious
im p l e m e n t s ! : )

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > DIY Engine ering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > NZ Mans DIY Cruise Missile for
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JekyllandHyde May 22nd, 2008, 09:45 AM

Here is a website abo ut one m ans VEY interesting project - a DIY cruise missile using over-the-counter parts! :D
T h e d e s i g n i s s i m m illar to a W W II V-1 Flying Bom b; the designs for the m issile were going available to tho se who subscribe to
the site, until the NZ government not shut down the guys project.
http://www.in terestingprojects.com /
I apologise if this is the wrong section of the fo rum ...
akinrog May 22nd, 2008, 11:00 AM

Here is a website abo ut one m ans VEY interesting project - a DIY cruise missile using over-the-counter parts! :D
http://www.in terestingprojects.com /
Actually a few years a go, we have discussed the project. It's super but back then I was dissappointed since the project stalled
c o n t a i n i n g n o i n f o o n e n g i n e d e s i g n , e tc.
I'm e v e n m o re disappointed now the project is sam e since a few years. Regards.
Bugger May 22nd, 2008, 09:18 PM

I have not heard anything about that "cruise m issile" story on the local n ews here in New Zealand. BTW a $ NZ is roughly worth
about $US 0.80.
JekyllandHyde May 23rd, 2008, 06:31 AM

Actually a few years a go, we have discussed the project. It's super but back then I was dissappointed since the project stalled
c o n t a i n i n g n o i n f o o n e n g i n e d e s i g n , e tc.
I'm e v e n m o re disappointed now the project is sam e since a few years. Regards.
Bugger... Thats m akes this thread redundant then doesn't it? :o
hatal May 23rd, 2008, 08:59 AM

I have not heard anything about that "cruise m issile" story on the local n ews here in New Zealand. BTW a $ NZ is roughly worth
about $US 0.80.
Goverment a g e n c i e s p u t t h e s q u i z e o n him, after he has been receiving offers from middle-eastern-types. Now the whole story
is hushed.
file May 23rd, 2008, 12:06 PM

All I can add in regard to the site to it is that the engine was definitely a pulsejet and m ost likely sim ilar to some of the m o r e
a d v a n c e d o n e s o n h i s s i t e . T h us giving at least som e of a clue as to eng i n e d e s i g n .
As to the thing itself, it is very sim p l e i n d e s i g n compared to a lot of things. However something like a large model plane wo uld
be able to carry m ore while not being too m uch larger. It's a tradeoff, you get better perform ance from the missile, but better
payload from a plane .

I doubt you would get a better payload from a plane, not at that price break.
The joy of the pulsejet design is that it uses nearly no moving parts, and you can build on in under an hour. In fact, you could
b u i l d a h u n d r e d o f t h e m in a day, m aterials perm itting, once you had the jigs and a dozen staff with a good idea of the
process. Try that with a plane, and you are stuck for engines after an hour.
Further, the pulsejet uses freely available natural gas (m ethane) so there can be no real effective restriction on it or indeed,
any of the parts...
In fact, nothing he does could n't be done by any sm all business in the western world in a few weeks, let alone a sm all
countries military program.
That's the joy of this design. I, like you, could build one tom orrow, work out the kinks and have 20 by next week.
file June 5th, 2008, 01:34 PM

So you couldn't im prove the am o u n t o f p a y l o a d b y m a k ing larger wings? Larger wings=less wing loading for any given
weig ht=m ore weight can be ca rried. Right?
You could use a pulsejet on them as well. The only m ajor drawbacks are that it will be larg er and slower because of the
increase in said wingspan.

The issue with increases to the wingspan is that this increases the drag. At subsonic speeds, you need som e wings and rudder
to allow steering, norm ally, and to give lift m ore cheaply than by using a thruster to give lift. If you increase the lift and hence
drag too m uch, your engine won't be a b l e t o p u s h h a r d e n o u g h t o g i v e a g o o d t o p s p e e d , a n d m i g h t e v e n s t a l l i f i t h a s t o g a i n
altitude.
The advantage to increasing the drag is that th is m ay a llow the engine to run at a more efficient speed, as well as increasing
the lifting ability.
W hether or not you got a range increase would depend on other factors.
W h a t I w a s m e a n i n g a b o v e i s t h a t a p l a n e d e s i g n , e s p e c i a l l y a m o d e l p l a n e d e s i g n , w o u l d h a v e a h u g e l y g reater num ber of

m oving parts, because it is a prop driven m achine powe red by a cylinder engine. Com pare this to the pulse jet engine, with
e x a c t l y o n e m oving p art in the simplest form , o r e v e n n o n e i n t h e v a l v e l e s s d e s i g n s .

The way I fig ure it, it's a trade off. Increased perform ance vs. increased capacity. Some applications would require a larger
b o m b, others would require something very fast.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > DIY Engineering > Tools, Plans, and DIY Projects > It's Time for a Alternative
Energy Source
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Charles Owlen Picket June 5th, 2008, 12:04 PM

I dearly love my country. I have sacrificed and worked for her. I love & respect the Constitution & the Bill of Rights. However I
am afraid that we may be faced with a serious Depression if alternative Energy sources are not achieved very soon!
I don't know how much gas is where you are....down here it's $3.80. We are reaching the end of the era of the gasoline/diesel
engine. My belief is that the oil companies are aware that we will start in earnest on alternative fuel and they are making the
most $ they can toward the end of their energy "reign".
IF we go to hydrogen; they will no longer be in business to any great extent.....Ethanol can be made from thousand of tons of
garbage - it DOES NOT DEPEND ON CORN! They have committed they own demise by sneering at electricity. We have HAD
electric cars since the 1980's that were just fine for highway use (That's how I made some of my money for my home, by the
way - Those stocks in those companies were bought up by GM!).
But if we don't alter our engine fuel mechanisms I am VERY concerned that we will be looking at the greatest Depression since
the crash of 1929! All perishable goods / foods move by truck; so many things including UPS / FedEx, large trucking lines, etc
will raise their prices - that the trickle-down impact may bring about a serious Depression in the economy....not a recession-
but a Depression. I have grave concerns for the next few years unless we really begin some radical changes in fuel & energy.
I implore you all to become scientifically & politically active to the extent of your abilities & to work within the system to get us
OUT of the SAME OLD methods of behaviour, both Nationally & Internationally. If we don't become VERY active domestically &
instead continue to be the "World's Policeman" we will ultimately suffer here at home. If that means "Isolationism", so be it.
We MUST start taking care of America first. Another "Great Depression" is just around the corner; which in my opinion will have
a greater overall effect than we could ever dream of.
Jobs will dwindle & the Dollar will become worthless. We will be ripe for dictatorship & destructive radicalism or the Right or Left.
We must work for alternatives to our energy needs before most anything else. Medical care means little if you can't get to a
doctor. Retail sales will be of a subsistence nature, & what transpired in Germany in the 1920's may become a reality.
So much Depends on an expansive view-point at this time politically......we must get our heads out of the sand! The very 1st
step is to continue to talk about this subject and not let it get relegated to a by-line in the news while some low-functional
starlets goes to rehab! We MUST keep this issue of alternative energy alive.
... it's now really time to broaden our horizons!
I would love to start a discussion on alternatives to existing energy sources. Many of us have a hobby of studying energetic
materials and high energy employment. What a think-tank we have if that hobby were channeled toward the end of
alternatives to the present wastage or get-rich-quick schemes! Most all of Western civilization (& Asia as well) will be affected if
alternatives are not developed & implemented!.
Is hydrogen the next appropriate move in internal combustion engines? Is electricity? I personally have seen ethanol made
from common garbage (& it's quite cheap). I am hoping a discussion on this subject would blossom because it's high time we
did something to curb this problem BEFORE we find ourselves "out of gas" & in desperation. Logical thinking in times of
desperation is very difficult, indeed....

We have approx. 200 years worth of oil, oil sands, shale oil and coal(which can be made into oil) in America or off our coasts.
However we need to find a practical, cost effective alternate fuel.
Ethanol made from waste products, switch grass, etc. is probably one of the better things out there, because we have plenty of
space for those plants. Just not corn, because that would use up too much of our food supply. I'd avoid hydrogen though,
because it will leak through anything and burns very easily. Just seems like an accident waiting to happen.
As far as power generation for the power grid, nuclear is a very cost effective option compared to other means and puts out a
lot of power per plant.
I agree that the US needs to start working on our own problems for a change. Cleaning up our government, fixing the energy
problem, etc.

I don't know how much gas is where you are....down here it's $3.80.
Is that per gallon or what? If so, that translates to about one dollar per liter correct? Where I am (northern Europe) gasoline is
$2.4 per liter or $9.3 per gallon. It has been at that level for years.
Incidentally, I completely agree that a good alternative method of storing energy is required. The thing is that while fossil and
nuclear fuels are already there ready to burn, any fuel that you synthesize needs an energy input which is greater than what
you can pull out of it (obviously).
So, whether you choose to biosynthesize plants and convert them to alcohol, electrolyse water to get hydrogen or charge a
battery you are essentially doing the same thing: Storing energy that you have to produce in some other manner.
Personally I rather like one storage method that was developed recently: Hydrogen from whatever source is converted to
ammonia and then bound in a metal complex (eg. MgCl2*6NH3 IIRC). The ammonia can be liberated by moderate heating
and is directly useable in fuel cells, producing nitrogen and water. The energy density is reasonably high (quite close to that of
gasoline) and there are no leakage or flammability problems.
As for an energy source... Most energy sources on earth (apart from nuclear types) are solar power in disguise: Plants are
maybe the most direct examples, but both wind and water power are ultimately just converted solar power. At present, solar
cells are quite efficient (but expensive); if you covered an area one tenth the size of Australia, they would generate enough
power to cover all the power requirements of the world at the present level of consumption.
JohnG June 6th, 2008, 12:23 AM

Gas here ranges from $3.86 to $3.99 per gallon. Not too bad considering I was in Connecticut last week, and the cheapest gas
I saw was $4.19.
I have to say that while I do think that hydrogen is the best choice (for autos), I just don't think that the US is ready to pump
the billions of dollars into the infrastructure that will be needed. Although I would like to see hydrogen powered vehicles, I
think that realistically it is a technology that is still a couple decades away. Electricity is available now, everywhere, so that is
probably where we are headed for the near future.
As for alternative energy for my house, for the past few months I have been considering a geothermal heating/cooling
system. They are a bit expensive (I am figuring about $15 -18k for my needs) but considering I spent almost $4500 on oil
last year it will be worth in in the long run.
I am happy to see the US is finally looking into building new nuclear power plants. However actually building them and opening
them will not necessarily go smoothly. I grew up near the last plant opened in the US, and it was quite a struggle to get built,
then open about 15 years after construction began. I was in school at the time, but I remember the propaganda that was
being put out by the anti-nuclear people. (The ocean temp will rise 1.5 degrees a mile from land! Oh no, think of the poor
fish!)
Massachusetts finally (tentatively) approved a wind farm off the southern coast of Cape Cod. They are planning to build 125+
turbines, capable of generating over 450 megawatts of power. You would not believe the outcry of people against this. 10's of
thousands have written in protest. (Although maybe now with the skyrocketing cost of oil and gas some may be backing
down). It will basically be out of sight of land (10 miles to the cape, 14 miles to Nantucket), so what is the problem? (Hint:
think of the poor birds!) :rolleyes:
Other countries have embraced alternative energy sources, it is high time we did too.
Lewis June 6th, 2008, 01:08 AM

Indeed I used to be pro-nuclear. Now I am not so sure.
The cost effectiveness of the nuclear industry has always been somewhat suspect, nevermind the moral issues with nuclear
waste being turned into weapons around the world.
Plants are built, and are great in the beginning. Powerful, cost effective, the works. But issues always arise, and before long
they need constant repairs. Even in plants being built in Canada, which are much more advanced than the current American
ones, have been fraught with troubles from day one.
There are probably better options than nuclear in the long run.
Alexires June 6th, 2008, 02:49 AM

Personally, I think that nuclear isn't a bad way to go.
In terms of portable energy, we have talked about hydrogen, and it dangers of storage. While this is true, perhaps it would be
possible to store hydrogen in the form of Lithium Hydride?
A tank is filled with a Lithium foam/matrix, and hydrogen is pumped in. Le Chat's principle states that the hydrogen will react
with the Li to form LiH, trying to reduce the concentration of Hydrogen in the system. When the tank is "full", most of the
Lithium will have been converted to LiH, and when Hydrogen starts to be taken from the tank, the reaction goes in reverse and
puts more Hydrogen gas into the tank, thus drastically reducing the amount of Hydrogen that may escape to the atmosphere,
and in the event of a tank rupture, the Hydrogen will not all rush out at once.
Normal electricity can be used to crack water at home to form Hydrogen which can then be pumped into the tank, or solar
power could be used.
Something to think about anyway.
iHME June 6th, 2008, 07:08 AM

I personally think that the most useful alternative energy sources will use transportation grids that are already there:
BioDiesel, ethanol and electricity.
Tough natural&bio gas could work also. The idea is to use existing grids instead of completely new ones. Use of biodisel and
ethanol would also allow the use of existing vehicle population.
Here In Europe usage of natural gas and bio gas to power vehicles is not uncommon tough it is not widespread either. Mostly
public transportation use 'em.
The only way for me to determine if the bus I'm in does run on petrol or gas is that the gas tanks are on the roof of the bus
covered by a hood.
As opposed to normal petrol tanks. The natural gas buses also tend to be in better shape than their petrol counterparts.
Charles Owlen Picket June 6th, 2008, 10:38 AM

So (rhetorically) where ARE the challenges? Why the fuck are we in this mess and others even deeper! Think of what it would
mean paying over 9 dollars for a gallon of gas and living far from town!!!! My point here is that the gentleman who described
the high price in N. Europe per liter would tell you that it didn't happen overnight....slowly they raised prices and the population
was accepting of it. But that situation may be very different than the US & Canada's....we have to move our good great
distances and have large agrarian "farm belts" that must get perishable goods to market on time.
Thinking along the lines of using existing grids; we have to come to grips with the internal combustion engine. It isn't going
away. Would it be even feasible to convert that to hydrogen? If not what would the alternatives be? The population at large
isn't going to be thrilled at their F250 rolling along the highway at 25mph......and there is a "debit" in performance with
ethanol.
We have some very good ideas here - and while I think it's most logical to use existing grids and the platforms that we have
been working with (internal combustion engines, etc) we do seem to be on the same page in regards to overall perspectives.
Gentlemen, this may just be the subject of this age. In the USA it appears that Barak Obama may actually BE the Democrat
candidate to be elected President. This in itself has powerful implication. Not only as the first black man elected as President
but he is actually an outsider (one reason I actually lost a bet that he would NEVER get the nomination). I actually lost money
due to my strong belief that the system was so corrupt that if you weren't in with big money, big oil, whatever, you would
NEVER get a nomination. - Politics aside (I'm conservative anyway), this may be a healthy sign; that the real insider (Hillery)
lost. We may take this country back to popularism and the Constitutional perspective of the People yielding power. (Too bad
there isn't a chance in Hell of a Conservative winning.....) But that off topic.
I have also heard that Solar may be in it's true infancy and that something new is about to make itself known.... Solar makes
so much sense but seems so clumsy. There must be a better way to devise a cell.
tmp June 6th, 2008, 01:04 PM

I've always been pro-nuclear. When was the last time the NRC actually
issued a license to build a nuclear power plant ? More than 30 years ?
Refinery space is also an issue. When was the last time the EPA issued a
license for one of those ? I understand the hassle for a refinery license is
almost as bad as a nuclear power plant. Putting aside the obvious greed by
big oil, the so-called government "regulators" are a pain in the ass !
I read an article, maybe Time(?) or one of those other magazines, where some
of the environmentalists may warm up to nuclear energy. It's not because
they have any love for nukes - they don't ! Their interest is in being able to
tell the oil-exporting nations to go fuck themselves ! I heartily agree with
that and would love to do so.
The biggest problem with solar is cost-per-kilowatt and efficiency. The last
time I priced one of the state-of-the-art solar panels I almost had a heart
attack. The absolute biggest problem with any of these non-fuel technologies
lies in the costs. I'm not saying they shouldn't be explored but the costs
have to come down in order to compete. If the price of oil keeps rising, that
will become a reality.

There is a stumbling block in place that saps our efforts to develop alternative energies, some of it is the science, and some
of it is politics. We fail as a society to realize our dreams for new energy sources because we cannot see the forest for the
trees. We are too busy looking for the ONE source that best fits our needs, to hell with the rest, that we end up searching in
vain. We fail as a nation because politics and greed are firmly entrenched in any great human endeavor. Wealth, power, and
energy are synonymous with each other.
What energy source do we need to embrace: Solar? Nuclear? Clean coal? Ethanol? Biodiesel? Algaeoil? Hydrogen? Wind? The
answer to all those questions is an emphatic YES. All of them, we need to embrace the multitude of alternative energy sources
right now instead of waiting for one or another to pan out. We are faced with a forest of choices, but there need not be only
one.
To solve our energy problems we need to embrace many different sources of energy because there is no panacea that fits
every situation and requirement. If we wait until an ideal source of energy comes along, we may be in far worse shape than if
we had adopted some interim technology. The "wait and see" approach is natural for a consumer inundated with conflicting
choices who wants to save money. We don't want to be early adopters of something that may not pan out. We fail to see the
problem in the correct way; we want to choose the energy option that saves us the most money, but in hesitating we pay far
more now using traditional sources of energy.
By not trying new technologies, by not exploring or utilizing different methods of energy production, we are not allowing the
science to mature. If we all hesitate, wait and see, keep looking for something better, nothing new will develop because no
one will have experience using the new technology. The market experts will say these technologies are worthless because no
one is buying them, and that will push many people away because they think the technology is a dead end.
Greed plays another very important factor in the energy game. The energy companies are firmly entrenched fixtures in the
business world and they are not likely to sacrifice their profits anytime soon. They will push oil, coal, and gas until the very last
drop has been wrested from the ground. They have a responsibility to their shareholders to make money, not to society to
make life better. If flogging the petroleum horse long after it is dead means advances into alternative energy are stymied, so
be it.
It is not just the big oil companies that get in the way, small business and entrepreneurs are far worse. Because big oil has
made such an obscene amount of money over the generations, turning common men into millionaires, entrepreneurs are
holding their cards very closely to their chests concerning new technologies. They think there is money to be made, big big
money, and they will not sacrifice profits by disclosing any scientific research that a competitor could use. This harms us as a
civilization because it compartmentalizes all energy science into isolated secret societies where only a select few are admitted,
if you invest in the company. These entrepreneurs constantly reinvent the wheel in their quest for results, wasting money and
resources on the same research being done by dozens of other companies, conducting and failing the same experiments,
each oblivious to the successes or setbacks of the others.
Caught in the middle of the energy fracas is the consumer. We are the ones making other men rich while we watch a greater
slice of our incomes evaporate just to heat our homes and drive to work. We hope someone will fix the problem before it is
too late. We think there must be something coming along that will make everything better. What we don't do is think for
ourselves. We would rather waste all of our hard earned money clinging to old sources of expensive energy than spend a little
effort using new sources of energy which can save what money we do have.
We as consumers are faced with an unprecedented opportunity when it comes to energy. For the very first time in history we
have the means to provide for our own energy needs. We don't need to wait for some big company to tell us what to buy from
them, we can start down the path of energy independence ourselves. We can cut the big companies out of the loop entirely.
You may wonder how that is possible. Traditional energy depends on coal, oil, and gas dug up from the ground and delivered
to us through pipes and power lines. He who controls the land controls the wealth underneath, and even then only those with
the capital to exploit these resources can benefit. Alternative energy is decentralized and unregulated. No man can stop you
from putting a solar panel on your roof or a windmill in your backyard. No government can legislate you fermenting your lawn
clippings or household waste to make ethanol. We have an unprecedented opportunity to supply our own energy, at least in
part, instead of being dependant on some far off factory or foreign policy.
Energy independence is not just a patriotic slogan, it can mean our individual independence from all utilities. This is perhaps
what the big companies fear most, even our own government fears this. How can companies make a profit off of something
you make yourself? How can the government tax something not piped into your home? The market will survive, and human
civilization will continue on without these companies, but the transition will be painful as an entire industry is uprooted and
discarded. All oil must eventually cease to flow because it is a finite resource, no law passed by any government can change
this, and no amount of money in the world can stop it, but that does not mean this industry will go quickly or quietly.
When I talk about alternative energy my senses crackle with the excitement 19th century scientists must have felt at the dawn
of modern science. I don't mean the professional scientists like we have today, but the budding experimentalists and amateur
researchers who discovered so much of the founding canon of science. We as individuals working out of our garages and
basement labs have the first real chance of making a difference in science in nearly 50 years. Perhaps society will no longer
consider having a lab to be a disparaging insult, seething with connotations of terrorism or drugs. Even if we accomplish little
more than satisfying our own energy needs, isn't it worth it to take the chance and embrace the new future of energy science
head on?
tmp June 8th, 2008, 11:43 AM

Mega, you really got me thinking about the alternatives here and the costs.
When I look back on my own history with technologies, sad to say, I'm being
a hypocrite at the least and an idiot at the worst.
My history includes paying high dollar for evolving technologies - to wit, VHS,
VHS 4-head, VHS Hi-Hi, S-VHS, LaserDisc(which I still love), and of course
DVD although I'm not quite ready to make the leap into Blue Ray just yet. I
can't say that I have any regrets despite the ultra-cheap prices I see now.
The fact is that I've enjoyed the fruits of technology ! Hell, I want to buy
that quad-core 3.2 GHz machine I've been dreaming about and it'll cost less
then the platform I'm currently operating on !
One of the beautiful things I've seen with technology is that it's ultimately
counter-inflationary. I just saw a solar panel online, that costs $920
to produce 205 watts. There are others out there. But you spoke of getting
independent of the utilities - that's the really important issue. Like the
environmentalists who nervously embrace nuclear power, I want to be able to
tell Baltimore Gas & Electric to shove it up their ass ! :D:D:D
AcMav June 9th, 2008, 01:21 AM

Two years ago I found myself writing a thesis about the Outcome of Nuclear Power. Little known is the fact our government has
been working against its progression for many years.
In the 1990's the United States had a project working on an Integral Fast Reactor, which is a type of reactor that eats its own
waste, producing more energy in the process. Compared to current reactors which were able to extract 1% of the energy in the
Uranium, the IFR could extract 99.5% in early trials. The waste was put back into the reactor to be further burned, removing
the vast majority of the waste and was left had approximately the radioactivity of natural uranium.
However in 1994 our Government decided the research was unnecessary and to dismantle the facilities and stop research?
Who would ever think to stop research on a technology that increases productivity from 1% to 99.5%. This seemingly happens
way too often where the Government becomes swayed by outside forces and things get axed.
I do not feel it is possible for us to work on an Alternate form of energy successfully until our country bucks the hold of the Oil
Tycoons. This probably wont happen until we reach this point of depression, as the Tycoons hold more power than the majority
of the sheeple. Be wise and do your research elsewhere, as the US is not ready for wide scale Alternative Energy.
If you'd like to read about the IFR (Article Written Before the Cancellation) - http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/designs/ifr/anlw.html
Frontline Interview about the IFR (Written Two Years after the Cancellation) - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/
reaction/interviews/till.html

Mega, if you ever decide to run for office, you've got my vote. I truly wish any of the current crop of candidates understood/
agreed with half of what you just said.
AcMav, I am definitely not a nuclear scientist, so this has always struck me as weird: OK, the radiation gets hot enough to
make steam, which makes heat. Then we use a percent or two of the heat, we get rid of that fuel & call it waste. But we have a
real problem disposing of it, because it'll still be really hot for a couple thousand years.
Seems like even without coming up with a new kind of reactor, you could get a lot more energy out. Or just have a series of
less & less hot ones.
Oh well, probably makes too much sense to ever happen...
Oh yeah, the original topic:

Solar powered alcohol still:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1979-07-01/An-Offbeat-Approach-To-Alcohol-Production.aspx
Converting your car to run on alcohol:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_drane.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me2.html
Mother's alcohol fuel cookbook:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meToC.html
Methane digesters for fuel gas & fertilizer:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/MethaneDigesters/MDToC.html
Telkor June 9th, 2008, 11:58 AM

Indeed I used to be pro-nuclear. Now I am not so sure.
Nuclear power would be quite good, but it's simply not enough. (approx. 7% of our energy are produced by nuclear power, and
the Uranium stock of our planet is very limited).
So, we have three choices:
- better solar power (improved nano-photovoltaik e.g.)

- fusion technology (hardly realized)
- consume less energy
AcMav June 9th, 2008, 11:29 PM

As I am a student currently working towards a Nuclear Engineering degree, I may be very biased in my views. However at a
time our country was powered 20% by Nuclear Power. The amount of Uranium found on earth far exceeds the amount of Fossil
Fuels when you look at how long they could provide us with power, especially if we embraced new technologies (Or Older more
expensive technologies)
Surprisingly with our few number of Nuclear Plants the US actually has 19% of its electricity supplied by nuclear power. (http://
www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p1.html). France has almost 78% of its power supplied by nuclear (http://
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5369610). This shift occurred after France ran out of Fossil Fuels. Both
Germany and France have been working on Nuclear Power for many years now. For once in our lives I think we'll be seeing the
US rely on Foreign companies for our technology. Currently all "Nuclear" related facilities are being created by Areva, a French
company.
However I'd like to attempt to address some of the questions raised. The reason current reactors cannot use all of the waste is
because once they have decayed they form Elements that cannot produce as much energy as the original fuel. In the IFR,
Efficiency is increased because the waste is reprocessed into reusable fuel. This could be done with our current waste but it is
extremely costly to do so and creates "weapons grade" uranium and plutonium. In the IFR's case all equipment to reprocess
these waste compounds are located inside the reactor casing. Allowing for Electrolysis to occur on the radioactive compounds
creating more fissile materials. Now I've never read the findings of the IFR project to understand the exact processes that the
wastes undergo to be reformed into fuel, but I'd guess these processes are complex and intricate, causing for the vast cost of
an IFR facility.
Also currently the marketplace doesn't support this, the cost of disposing Uranium and the amount of Uranium available allows
us to use extremely wasteful cheap reactors without concern. This is just like cars, If Gas were still cheap and plentiful, we'd
have V12+ cars roaming the streets wasting gas everywhere. Nuclear Power plants pay for waste removal based on the power
they produce, not the time it takes the waste to decay to safe levels.
One issue with the effectiveness of current reactors is the use of water as an intermediate between the reactor and the steam
loop. This causes thermal inefficiencies because the water is kept in a liquid state (Highly pressurized) to prevent it from
escaping in a gaseous form. Many of the new reactor designs utilize Sodium instead of water, removing the pressurization and
allowing for much higher thermal efficiencies. Other reactors are designed to be able to run hotter, allowing for the fissile
material to be used with less moderation (Prevention from completing fission). Sadly due to the "cheap" price of enriched
uranium provided by our government, these efficiencies have never been an issue.

It is not technology that is stopping nuclear energy, it is politics. Reusing that nuclear waste invariably leads to plutonium, and
that causes other nations to get nervous. Then there is the security issue of protecting a facility with enough weapons grade
material onsite to destroy several major cities. The environmentalists must be appeased, but they foam at the mouth at the
very mention of nuclear while pointing out disasters from decades ago. To top it off, every nuclear reactor in the US is
considered a prototype, all of them are different, so different in fact that operators cant just go from plant to plant and know
what to do.
I am a proponent of nuclear energy, but not as strong as I used to be. It is too politically charged of an issue, and there are
too many sides wanting opposite goals that it will never be a feasible form of energy.
To do it right we first need a National Nuclear Reactor program to design a standardized facility. Nuclear engineers and NRC
officials could go from plant to plant seamlessly and know exactly how to run the facility. Highly specialized experts could
emerge that are intimately familiar with a particular function, and would be able to improve safety and efficiency. The NNR
program would have to be run by scientists alone, without interference by politicians, environmentalists, pork belly contractors,
and miles of red tape. A nuclear engineer knows more about nuclear reactors than Senator so-and-so, so the officials need to
keep their mouths shut and stick to writing the checks. The NNR program will have to get over the fear of breeder reactors and
use that waste to its maximum effect. Scientific estimates indicate if all electrical energy produced on earth was from a nuclear
reactor, all of the worlds uranium would be consumed in 30 years. Breeder reactors would extend the nuclear fuel supply to
thousands of years.
This will never happen because it would require an unprecedented level of cooperation within our government that has not
happened since December 8, 1941, the last time the politicians all voted on the same thing.
To be even more cynical, we might end up with corporate fat cats building nuclear reactors in Mexico and exporting all of the
electricity to the US. The Mexican fedgov will just rubber stamp whatever the suits hand them, and the Mexican people wont
be able to do anything to stop it. The mantra of many US citizens is nuclear now, just not in my backyard. With the plants
tucked away just across the border we can feel at ease that the unregulated facilities in a country with no liability are giving us
energy at $0.50 a KWh. Prevailing winds are from north to south, how can this possibly go wrong for us?
Does anyone notice a theme of the links posted by monkeyboy? All of that information is decades old, in fact almost all of the
practical information we have on making fuel alcohol stems from the energy crisis of the 70s. Once the crisis was over all that
innovation just stopped. It stopped cold. Digest that for a moment.
In 30 years there has been almost nothing new concerning making alcohol for fuel use. All the books and websites we have
today are just rehashes of earlier decades old material. If you look at Mother Earth News from decades ago the articles read
like solving the energy problem was just around the corner. They were SO CLOSE to making a huge impact, but it all just
fizzed away somehow. The recent issues are still talking about the same problems from 30 years ago, but it is the 21st
century now, you would think there would be some innovations!
Dr Nancy Ho at Purdue University developed a form of yeast that can digest cellulose, potentially quadrupling current ethanol
yields with corn alone, and opening up vast sources of cellulosic waste as fuel sources. This was announced 4 years ago now,
not a peep since. The technology has been licensed to Iogen, good luck getting so much as a single microbe of that yeast.
There are other researchers and companies whose names I have forgotten. There is the research to increase ethanol yields
using E. Coli, licensed away to some company. There is the microbiologist who found a natural strain of algae that has the
potential to produce significant amounts of biodiesel, licensed away under trade secret. There are the companies producing
inexpensive enzymes from fungi to depolymerize cellulose into sugar so it can be fermented, all science kept a secret.
Patents, licenses, trade secrets. This is what I was referring to in my last post about greedy entrepreneurs reinventing the
wheel and holding their technology close to their chests. These technologies could ignite a firestorm of innovation into ethanol
production, but the science is a closely guarded secret. Years go by while one lone company idly experiments with the science,
all the while keeping mum on any progress.
Search the Internet for alternative energy companies and you will find well designed web pages filled with flash animations of
flowers and sunbeams, brief descriptions of the science behind the company no more sophisticated than a grade school book
report, and a blatant sales pitch to invest, invest now. It is disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, disquieting, distressing, and
disconcerting!
Go to an algae centric biodiesel bulletin board and ask what is the best strain of algae for making biodiesel. This is the
newbie equivalent of how can I make a bomb with stuff under my kitchen sink on The Forum. The difference there is the
question has not been answered. Most do not know the answer to that question, and the few that do are only willing to SELL
you the information. These boards are teeming with people that just want a simple strain of algae. How hard can it be to say,
buy a vial of this algae for $10?
Apparently it is some massive secret because nobody is talking. Algaeculture should be as easy as brewing beer, and there
are plenty of home kits for that, but no such luck. People culture algae all the time, unintentionally, in fish tanks and
swimming pools, but very few of the strains produce algaeoil that can be turned into biodiesel. There is the rub.
Then we have solar concentrators. A brilliant invention, or so I thought at first. The concept is simple: a parabolic mirror
concentrates sunlight on a steel pipe, which produces steam, which is used to drive a turbine, producing electricity. Its like a
much cheaper version of a solar panel, except they dont seem to be much cheaper at all. There are a handful of pilot
electricity plants, and even one notable DIY project, but when they start adding up all the material costs it falls in the same
range of photovoltaic cells.
I would like to know how some mirrors and pipe end up costing that much. Indeed when you factor in the heliostats, steam
control pipe fittings, electrical generators, and scaffolding for the mirrors, it all adds up quick. Still, with a few improvements in
technology (cheap heliostats) and some recycled building materials, the costs should drop very low. With enough people
building their own systems we could start seeing some very beneficial innovation in the DIY segment.
Ethanol, algaeculture, and solar concentrators all sound like the answers to all of societys problems if you read the glowing
sales prospectus pitches propagandized by the PR pimps. When real people try this stuff it all falls apart in spectacular failure
and disappointing disillusionment.
This does not mean the science is a dead end, it just means there is not enough knowledge available for the common man to
get started on his own experiments. Knowing where to get plastic bags at $0.04 a foot instead of transparent pipe at $4.00 a
foot for algaeculture could help. Knowing how to cultivate your own fungi and how to extract the cellulosic depolymerizing
enzymes could help. Knowing how to turn an old car alternator into a steam powered electric turbine could help.
The secret to all of these technologies, in my opinion, is they can be accomplished much cheaper on the small scale by a DIY
builder. A few recycled parts, some roadside castoffs, maybe the odd garage sale find thrown into the mix, and you have the
makings of a fermentor/cultivator/reflector. Big companies cant pull this off, they have to buy brand new equipment, hire
special engineers, incorporate safety systems, and all before they produce so much as one Joule of energy.
I know I could do better.
Jetex Kid June 10th, 2008, 07:56 AM

S u p p lying more energy for an ever-expandin g population is a very difficult, s o let s k eep in mind that the proble m can also
be solved by reducing the population.
Not that long ago, communities were largely self-sufficient, but now are collectively vulnerable because they depend on a
delicately-balanced national or global infrastructure to supply vital communications, fuel, transportation, food and medical
care.
Relief from the energy shortage could be provided by gigadeaths arising from any of numerous means: a good traditional war
or a nuclear war, naturally infectious disease like bird flu, bioterrorism in any of many forms , nanoterrorism or just a
prolonged shutdown of the infrastructure. And population reduction is a renewable resource that can be used again and again!
We would d o it voluntarily, but nahhhhh.

Read the "Tragedy of the Commons" by Garrett Hardin for a very insightful philosophical argument of what Jetex is referring
to.

Yesterday I criticized energy companies that use algae in some form to produce biodiesel. Today I will examine an actual case
study, a real algae company website that fits the stereotypical mold like all the rest.
Today, June 10, 2008, New Scientist has an article about a company using algae to produce "green crude." The article is short,
and I will reproduce it here to pick it apart:
Algae oil promises truly green fuel
10 June 2008
From New Scientist Print Edition
THIS is one biofuel that lives up to its green billing in more ways than one. It's an emerald-green crude oil, produced by
photosynthesis in algae, which could fuel cars, trucks and aircraft - without consuming crops that can be used as food.
"This product can go right into today's oil pipeline," claims Jason Pyle of Sapphire Energy in San Diego, California, which
developed the fuel. He says the "green crude" is similar in quality to naturally occurring crude oil. It is produced as a by-
product of photosynthesis by a genetically engineered strain of algae, housed in tanks of treated waste-water and exposed to
sunlight. The tanks can be placed on non-arable land.
Gasoline, diesel and jet fuel have already been refined from the green crude, and the company aims to produce 10,000
barrels per day within five years.
<http://environment.newscientist.com/article/mg19826595.900-algae-oil-promises-truly-green-fuel.html?DCMP=ILC-
hmts&nsref=news8_head_mg19826595.900>
A quick search reveals the Sapphire Energy can be found at http://www.sapphireenergy.com/. Browsing there the viewer is
presented with a well designed website, but very little content. This is prototypical of these sites, they are more akin to
brochures, or like sales pitches as I mentioned yesterday. Notice the POWERWORDS to sell you: "revolutionary platform..."
"world's first renewable gasolin e..." "potential to radically cha nge America's energy "
Their logo graphic is a perfect example of how they dumb down the science until it is only suitable for children. "Sunlight +
CO2 + sapphire = renewable gasoline." Anyone looking for insights into the science of how the algae is used, or who may
actually want to know if the company they are investing in even has a valid technology, had better look elsewhere. Many of
these companies are actually scams, especially if based in South Africa. The "technology" they are talking about could actually
be just a goal or broad outline of their business, not existing technology, but they make it seem like they are some
established energy company to lure investors. They may actually be working on this technology, but the key here is the
company's science exists only in the pages of press reports and news stories NOT peer reviewed scientific journals. This makes
these companies highly suspect.
The New Scientist article mentions Sapphire Energy is using a genetically engineered algae. If this is true, although I didn't see
any direct mention of this on their website, only allusions to it, this means they can patent the algae and hoard the technology
for the next 27 years. The statement "genetically modified" may also be misleading. One would assume they designed the
ideal form of algae: a species that maximizes algaeoil output, multiplies rapidly, consumes significant quantities of CO2 while
at the same time consuming little nutrients, can effectively utilize wastewater as its nutrient source, can tolerate temperature
extremes and still sustain reproduction, resists contamination by competing algae strains, and is efficient at using solar
energy. That is what you would tend to assume, even one of those factors would be valuable, but a GM algae could mean
anything, such as it has a slightly different shade of green than the rest. A superfluous change indeed, but still "genetically
modified."
It is also possible the GM algae was developed by some university researcher years ago and it has come off patent, or they
license it from a university. To a potential investor, saying you have a genetically modified anything implies you have a staff
of skilled geneticists working in a modern laboratory and a budget that gets results. This implication would be intentional on
the part of the PR and marketing people. In fact the "management team" and "scientific advisory board" reads like a who's
who of geneticists and microbiologists if you believe the hype. If I had my own company, I could refer to myself as "one of the
most sought after scientists of the age, a legend in the field, one of the world's greatest scientific geniuses." Who could vouch
for the veracity of such speculative statements? Unless they "show me the science" everyone should assume this company
does not have any of its own technology to offer.
There is one strain of algae I know of that produces algaeoil best suited for making gasoline rather than diesel. This is not
new or unique, but Sapphire Energy would be the first company to my knowledge to exploit this strain. This type of algae is
generally considered problematic because it is far easier to produce biodiesel directly from algaeoil, but the algaecrude of
this strain requires traditional energy intensive petroleum refining. This is bad from an energy perspective because it means
you have to have the entire petroleum industry and its hideously expensive refineries in place, but it can be good in that
very few automob iles actually bu rn diesel. There is a lot more to this argument that I will not go into now
One glaring omission from the Sapphire Energy website is the appeal for investors. They do talk a great deal about the
investors they already have, so someone bit this hook. Perhaps they do have a valid technology, and I would certainly like to
think some day one of these companies will, but until they give a little more detail than just "sunlight + CO2 + sapphire =
renewable gasoline" I will remain skeptical.
I can infer from the Sapphire Energy website that they will be culturing algae in outdoor ponds in the desert. This activity is
humorously called "slime ranching" in algaeculture circles, referring to algae being slimy, and ranching being the original
livelihood of the deserts of the American southwest. This is the cheapest way to culture algae, and the technology is already
well established by companies that culture algae for vitamin supplements. However, open air reactors are subject to expensive
losses of water (shallow ponds + desert sun = evaporation big time), and to cross contamination of foreign algae species.
Algae is everywhere, it grows even when you do not want it, and when you have an environment idealized for algae growth, you
can't help but grow foreign strains. If your strain of algae is not robust enough to compete with the indigenous algae of the
area, you will contaminate your ponds and have to reseed it. This wastes time, costs money, and reduces product yield.
Photobioreactors guarantee no foreign algae invasion, and the water can be recycled, but a large scale system requires a
massive investment in transparent tubes/hose/pipes to culture the algae. These transparent pipes eventually get slimed on
the inside, which reduces the amount of available sunlight reaching the algae, so they have to be cleaned, or replaced
completely. These tubes are invariably made of plastic, and since they are exposed to a considerable amount of sunlight, they
degrade and discolor, leading to solar intensity loss, or breakage.
The verdict is still out on which way is best. Either method would require a massive amount of money, a huge chunk of land,
and a significant percentage of fresh water to satisfy all of the USA's fuel needs. At least in theory because no one has made
algaeoil work on a big scale yet.

I found this article on New Scientist as well yesterday, but I didn't read it until this morning. It seems there is a new movement
to recycle nuclear waste after all, despite the risks of nuclear weapons proliferation.
US nuclear recycling plans raise proliferation risks
07 June 2008
IF YOU can't innovate, then reinvent the wheel. That seems to be the thinking behind the US Department of Energy's (DoE)
plans for a nuclear fuel reprocessing programme - but this tactic may play into the hands of weapons-makers.
The idea of reprocessing spent nuclear fuel had been anathema to US policy-makers for decades because of the fear that
plutonium could end up in weapons.
Then in 2006, the DoE announced plans to build a plant to test reprocessing technology that would both significantly reduce
the amount of nuclear waste and keep the plutonium mixed in with other radioactive materials. Critics, however, argued that
technology to do this didn't exist.
Now it seems the DoE has backtracked on its original plans and is using a separated plutonium technology similar to that used
by Japan, France and Russia, according to an independent report by the US Government Accountability Office. "If mitigating
proliferation risks and waste reduction are their goals, we think they should reassess their approach, says GAO researcher
Daniel Feehan.
FragmentedSanity June 11th, 2008, 11:24 AM

Mega, you have let a few tantalizing bits slip over the years in regards to ethanol/methanol production from things like lawn
clippings or household waste. I seem to remember you saying that you planned on conducting some experiments base on
converting lawn clippings to methanol. Did that ever eventuate - or am I dreaming?
Is this an option in the range of an average DIYer or is it still more of a commercial venture?
totenkov June 11th, 2008, 04:19 PM

Corn is hardly an effective alternate fuel. Canada's oil sands were considered to be too expensive to exploit. that was a few
years ago; now it is a raging industry. What happens when corn starts getting utilized for a fuel? Corn crop prices go through
the roof. Food is more important that fuel. Asian countries and are experiencing severe food shortages, so far North America
has remaining the last best West, but wait till it comes here.
As stated we are at the end of the petroleum age. It always gets darkest just before it goes pitch fucking black. Dont hold me
to the statement, but I am pretty sure Canada holds 25% of the worlds water supply. The US is primarily and import nation
with little natural resources compared to the country to the north. We were asked to divert the Fraser River into the United
States, with major cities relying off of rivers that run through multiple States, when those rivers dry up, you can bet the US
won't be asking nicely for water.
No doubt, the next 100 years will be an interesting time.
tmp June 11th, 2008, 09:59 PM

Plutonium being produced ? Doesn't that burn in reactors ? I say, SO FUCKING
WHAT ! I say the concerns about plutonium are an acceptable risk in most
countries. It's the price we pay for technology. I'll concentrate on "other"
sources of electrivity for my home but I'm still pro-nuclear !

Mega, you have let a few tantalizing bits slip over the years in regards to ethanol/methanol production from things like lawn
clippings or household waste. Did that ever eventuate... ?
As a matter of fact I did run multiple fermentation batches of lawn clippings, obtaining a most foul smelling concoction that
nevertheless had a small percentage of alcohols.
There exists only a small percentage of fermentable sugars in grasses, and this varies by species, time of year, and growing
conditions. These experiments led me to look into cellulosic depolymerization as a means of increasing sugar percentages.
I only tried the historic acid hydrolysis, as seen on journeytoforever, but I was quite disappointed with the economics of this
process. You waste acid, you waste lime neutralizing the acid, and if you don't do it right your yeast don't thrive.
I have been looking for an economic means of depolymerizing cellulose ideally suited for a DIYer. Unfortunately this problem
is something the ethanol industry is struggling with, and have yet to solve. It is only a matter of time though...
It is looking for such science that I found about the cellulosic yeast, the yeast convert the cellulose into sugar themselves.
Fungi enzymes are another potentially useful route, but the enzymes are still too expensive. Companies like Novazyme are
working to drop the costs of the enzymes, and even if you had to buy from them (a not altogether unappealing prospect
considering how tedious it must be to farm fungi yourself) it could work. That is IF they meet their cost goal of enzymes
resulting in production costs of $0.10 per gallon of ethanol.
I would like to try some microwave methods. The reference for microwave depolymerization of cellulose is suspiciously absent
in the second edition of "Microwaves in Organic Synthesis." This reaction would need to be scaled up, even for a DIY user, and
microwave reactions are difficult to scale up in general.
What would be nice is a reusable acid catalyst to hydrolyze the cellulose, but that can be removed from the sugar solution as
not to affect the fermentation. I forget if there are such technologies yet or not, it has been awhile since I last looked into this
area of research.
There is also biobutanol which seems promising (they always say these technologies are promising), but I know very little
about it. As I recall the same basic problems of getting fermentable sugars for ethanol apply, so I have not bothered to
search for any references.
Algae seems to be where the greatest potential lies. At least in terms of overall fuel output with minimum cost and resources.
Biodiesel does not help me at all because I don't have a diesel engine in any way shape or form, nor do I know anyone who
has one. I can't dump the stuff in my gas tank, and that is really the goal here right? Sure, you can ferment the pressed algal
cakes, but they still have to be depolymerized.
I figure the most economical system for DIY production of fuel is a duel algae culture and fermentation operation. The CO2
produced from the fermentation is channeled back into the algae cultures. A small diesel generator could be purchased to
produce electricity with the biodiesel, the exhaust also being captured for use in algae culture. Yard waste and recycled paper
could supplement the fermenter. With extensive modifications of the chemistry used to process the algaeoil, it should possible
to produce a type of gasoline that can be mixed with ethanol and used in a gasoline engine.
"They" say running more than 30% ethanol in a gasoline engine not specifically made for flex fuel will dissolve the gaskets.
"They" also say it is expensive and difficult to change the gaskets of a car to use gasahol (up to 90% ethanol). What I have
never seen, and I looked, is how long it takes the ethanol to eat through your gaskets. Will it be a few days, months, or
years? My car is over 10 years old now, if it takes 10 years to wear down the gaskets, I hope I will have a newer car long
before then. I have heard third hand reports of people saying you can use up to 70% ethanol without harming the gaskets.
Someone will figure it out eventually. If I ever do start cranking out enough ethanol I will buy a cheap beater car to use as the
experimental test bed.
A DIYer can accomplish all these technologies, but the big problem is can you make enough fuel for yourself? It takes a lot of
land and raw materials to make the minimum 600 gallons* per year of fuel. The analogy of the home brewer fits this perfectly
because the tools, techniques, and materials are very similar. Plenty of people make beer or wine at home, sometimes in
rather large quantities. There exist a number of suppliers and resources for the DIY brewer. We need the same thing for algae
and fuel alcohol if it is to be successful. It will most likely happen, it will just take some time.
*Assuming you drove the national average of 15,000 miles per year per person, and your vehicle got 25 mpg, you would need
about 600 gallons of GASOLINE. Ethanol only supplies 1/3 the mpg of gasoline, and I have no idea what the mpg of biodiesel
is.
Hirudinea June 12th, 2008, 08:55 PM

Here's an interesting link on making ethonol from sawdust and other celulose products, mabye we could finally have use for all
that damn paper we recycle.
http://www.green-trust.org/sawdust_ethanol.htm

"They" say running more than 30% ethanol in a gasoline engine not specifically made for flex fuel will dissolve the gaskets.
"They" also say it is expensive and difficult to change the gaskets of a car to use gasahol (up to 90% ethanol). What I have
never seen, and I looked, is how long it takes the ethanol to eat through your gaskets. Will it be a few days, months, or
years?
I don't have a real strong chem background, just mechanical. I believe that it's the MEK or Acetone that the Alcohol is
denatured with that creates problems? The gov now allows denaturing with gasoline, should be fine?
I found a chart, lets see if I can paste it in here without mangling it too bad:
DURABILITY OF VARIOUS PLASTICS: ALCOHOLS VS. GASOLINE

Ethanol Methanol Gasoline
Conventional Polyethylene good excellent poor
High-density Polyethylene excellent excellent good
Teflon excellent excellent excellent
Tefzel excellent excellent excellent
Polypropylene good excellent fair
Polymethylpentene good excellent fair
Polycarbonate good fair fair
Polyvinyl Chloride good fair poor
Excellent: Will tolerate years of exposure.

Fair: Some signs of deterioration after one week of exposure.
Good: No damage after 30 days of exposure, should tolerate several years of exposure.
Poor: Deteriorates readily.
NOTE: All tests were made with liquids at 122 deg F.
Courtesy of Journey to forever's "how to adopt your automobile engine" pdf
*Assuming you drove the national average of 15,000 miles per year per person, and your vehicle got 25 mpg, you would need
about 600 gallons of GASOLINE.
That's only 1.66 gallons per day from your handy dandy solar still:D
Ethanol only supplies 1/3 the mpg of gasoline
I think you meant 1/3 less, not 1/3 of...
My understanding is the higher the compression, the closer to the gas mpg you get, with about 14.5:1 achieving almost
parity(alcohol isn't as prone to ping/knock, so you can get away with it).
and I have no idea what the mpg of biodiesel is.
Should be identical, I think.
I've got an old book around here

This one:The Mother Earth News Handbook of Homemade Power
http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Earth-Handbook-Homemade-Power/dp/B000HUROMA/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213328527&sr=8-2
If I recall correctly it makes the claim that the less gasoline you put into the alcohol, the lower you can go on the proof & still
have the engine run. I'm digging it out to verify that. *edit* That book doesn't have anything on alcohol in it. I coulda sworn it
did. I'll look around & see if I can find that info.
*edit2* Found it!
PLOWBOY: I've seen your furnace operate on alcohol-very effectively, it seems-but how efficient is the corn product as
compared to fuel oil?
CROMBIE: Let me explain that in terms of the 70% (140-proof) alcohol that I burn ... since even the simplest still can produce
a fuel of that quality. Now, fuel oil contains a substantially greater number of Btu's, per given amount, than alcohol. This
means-in theory-that you'd have to burn a whole lot more alcohol to produce the same heat that a smaller amount of oil
would provide. And that's exactly what would happen, too, if you burned pure (200-proof) alcohol. But as I said, the 70% alky
solution contains 30% water. So you can "bum" that water along with the alcohol

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